From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 1 11:02:55 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA25409 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 11:02:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA1Fl5HT063208; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 07:47:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA1Fl5Ll063207; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 07:47:05 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA1Fl0cI063149 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 07:47:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1COeOX-0004Mk-CY; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 15:46:57 +0000 Message-ID: <41865A71.2090208@franklinmint.fm> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 10:46:57 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sam Ruby CC: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: PaceOptionalAlternateLink References: <412B23C4.9010602@intertwingly.net> <4130E11B.3000600@intertwingly.net> <41546A46.60507@intertwingly.net> <4166C99A.4040603@intertwingly.net> <41812CA8.6090501@intertwingly.net> <1f2ed5cd04102811344aeb6f1b@mail.gmail.com> <41813F5C.3030603@intertwingly.net> In-Reply-To: <41813F5C.3030603@intertwingly.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sam Ruby wrote: > > > I'm -1 on making AlternateLink completely optional unless the content is > provided. The use cases on the wiki seem to all include inline content. > Is there a use case for syndication where the content is neither > included nor referenced? I am -1 on PaceOptionalAlternateLink for the same reasons. > > As I see it PaceContentOrLink coupled with PaceReformedContent3 (already > approved) provide consumers with a minimum set of guarantees: > > 1) All entries will have a displayable text fallback > 2) The content is either inline or can be located > I am +1 on PaceContentOrLink, for the same reasons. So, uh, what Sam said. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 1 15:21:34 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA26536 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 15:21:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA1K6L6U086440; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 12:06:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA1K6LdF086439; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 12:06:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from dgram.net (stone.dgram.net [38.119.32.210]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA1K6GZm086386 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 12:06:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mfrumin@eyebeam.org) Received: from [38.119.33.112] (account mfrumin@eyebeam.org HELO [172.16.1.117]) by dgram.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.4) with ESMTP id 773190; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 15:09:58 -0500 Message-ID: <41869746.6060908@eyebeam.org> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 15:06:30 -0500 From: Michael Frumin User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org CC: Michal Migurski Subject: current status of source and/or via-link tracking syntax Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi, We're working on a new 1.0 release of our reBlog project (www.reblog.org) -- an online RSS/Atom Aggregator that is slanted towards republishing and resyndicating. It does this by spitting out a feed that is consumed by plugins into standard blogging software (http://www.eyebeam.org/reblog is the first instance). For our new release, we want to incorporate some of the atom syntax for indicating original source feeds and where'd-I-find-this Via links. I have read thru a bunch of the conversation on this list relative to this topic but there didn't seem to be a real resolution. Also Mark Pilgrim's nice tutorial of using for linkblogging at http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/05/27/howto-atom-linkblog offers somethning, but I don't see updates to the Atom specs that indicate the official way to do this. SO, i was just wondering if someone could point me at a description of the current way in Atom to specify source feeds and Via links, I would appreciate it. Also, we'll let y'all know when reBlog 1.0 is out (a couples weeks at most) and maybe someone out there cares to evaluate it. thanks, Mike Frumin Research Fellow, Eyebeam From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 1 16:25:02 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA05582 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 16:25:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA1LEr9Y014480; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 13:14:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA1LErA2014479; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 13:14:53 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA1LEmRo014440 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 13:14:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1COjVo-0004XW-Ev; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 21:14:48 +0000 Message-ID: <4186A747.1050708@franklinmint.fm> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 16:14:47 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Frumin CC: atom-syntax@imc.org, Michal Migurski Subject: Re: current status of source and/or via-link tracking syntax References: <41869746.6060908@eyebeam.org> In-Reply-To: <41869746.6060908@eyebeam.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Frumin wrote: > > For our new release, we want to incorporate some of the atom syntax for > indicating original source feeds and where'd-I-find-this Via links. I > have read thru a bunch of the conversation on this list relative to this > topic but there didn't seem to be a real resolution. We resemble that remark. > SO, i was just wondering if someone could point me at a description of > the current way in Atom to specify source feeds and Via links, I would > appreciate it. For now, the version of Atom you should support is Atom 0.3, outlined here: http://atomenabled.org/developers/ Newer versions should not be deployed, except for experimental purposes. Regarding "via" links and whatnot, I don't think there's an official position. Unfortunately, Atom 0.3 shipped with conflicting rules regarding link @rel values. The values outlined in Mark's article seem to be somewhat supported, but other values probably aren't for the moment. Consult atomenabled.org and feedvalidator.org for further information. As for the *current* way, well, there isn't one. However, it looks like a great many link-related proposals will soon be meeting their end. http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg10800.html http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/AtomPubIssuesList Hope this helps, Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 1 17:26:55 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA13408 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:26:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA1MFWZO043881; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:15:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA1MFW75043880; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:15:32 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40829.mail.yahoo.com (web40829.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.92.76]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA1MFRCn043810 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:15:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20041101221522.89018.qmail@web40829.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [131.107.71.228] by web40829.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 14:15:22 PST Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:15:22 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: current status of source and/or via-link tracking syntax To: mint@franklinmint.fm, Michael Frumin Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org, Michal Migurski In-Reply-To: <4186A747.1050708@franklinmint.fm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --- Robert Sayre wrote: > > For now, the version of Atom you should support is > Atom 0.3, outlined here: > > http://atomenabled.org/developers/ Personally, I think if you produce a tool that generates Atom 0.3 feeds you are part of the problem with XML syndication today. There is no reason to support an interim draft XML syndication spec with a built-in expiration date especially since this increases the fragmentation of the XML syndication space. > The values outlined in > Mark's article seem > to be somewhat supported, but other values probably > aren't for the > moment. What tools can consume via & source links as described in Mark's article? None that I've heard of. ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 1 17:28:30 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA13633 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:28:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA1MMTdX046963; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:22:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA1MMTEB046962; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:22:29 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA1MMSnh046956 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:22:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1COkZH-000074-NG; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 22:22:27 +0000 Message-ID: <4186B725.1030202@franklinmint.fm> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 17:22:29 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dare Obasanjo CC: Michael Frumin , atom-syntax@imc.org, Michal Migurski Subject: Re: current status of source and/or via-link tracking syntax References: <20041101221522.89018.qmail@web40829.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041101221522.89018.qmail@web40829.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dare Obasanjo wrote: > > Personally, I think if you produce a tool that > generates Atom 0.3 feeds you are part of the problem > with XML syndication today. > Personally, I think if you produce a tool that consumes Atom 0.3 feeds you are part of the problem with XML syndication today. *yawn The question was about Atom, the answer was about Atom. > >>The values outlined in >>Mark's article seem >>to be somewhat supported, but other values probably >>aren't for the >>moment. > > > What tools can consume via & source links as described > in Mark's article? None that I've heard of. I know magpie uses it. I don't know about other tools, but people seem to produce it. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 1 17:35:06 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA14418 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:35:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA1MSfX6050632; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:28:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA1MSfGY050630; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:28:41 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40802.mail.yahoo.com (web40802.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.78.179]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA1MSej7050576 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:28:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20041101222840.78279.qmail@web40802.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [131.107.71.228] by web40802.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 14:28:40 PST Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:28:40 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: current status of source and/or via-link tracking syntax To: mint@franklinmint.fm Cc: Michael Frumin , atom-syntax@imc.org, Michal Migurski In-Reply-To: <4186B725.1030202@franklinmint.fm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --- Robert Sayre wrote: > Dare Obasanjo wrote: > > > > Personally, I think if you produce a tool that > > generates Atom 0.3 feeds you are part of the > problem > > with XML syndication today. > > > > Personally, I think if you produce a tool that > consumes Atom 0.3 feeds > you are part of the problem with XML syndication > today. > > *yawn I don't disagree but thanks the boneheads at Google/Blogger and the fact that all major aggregators on Windows support Atom 0.3 (again thanks to the Google/Blogger crowd) RSS Bandit does as well. We've gone from complaining about 2 major flavors of XML syndication (Dave Winer's specs & the RDF-based specs) to 3 (Atom 0.3) with a fourth on the way (Atom 1.0). I don't see why anyone who's interested in the growth of this technology area would not feel dismayed at what has happened in this space. Thankfully, I've been able to disuade the various folks at work who've considered poisoning the XML syndication well by emitting Atom 0.3 so far. The less of these we have in the wild, the easier it will be to wean people of them when Atom 1.0 ships. > The question was about Atom, the answer was about > Atom. I seem to remember one of the co-chairs of this working group stating that the assumption of this working group is that Atom 1.0 is the only version of Atom that exists. Unless this policy has changed I think your suggestion to use 'Atom 0.3' was contrary to the spirit of this working group. ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 1 17:42:45 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA15052 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:42:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA1MZZb7054213; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:35:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA1MZZqt054212; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:35:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA1MZYEp054199 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:35:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1COklw-0000u9-HA; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 22:35:32 +0000 Message-ID: <4186BA36.8070500@franklinmint.fm> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 17:35:34 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dare Obasanjo CC: Michael Frumin , atom-syntax@imc.org, Michal Migurski Subject: Re: current status of source and/or via-link tracking syntax References: <20041101222840.78279.qmail@web40802.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041101222840.78279.qmail@web40802.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dare Obasanjo wrote: > >>The question was about Atom, the answer was about >>Atom. > > > I seem to remember one of the co-chairs of this > working group stating that the assumption of this > working group is that Atom 1.0 is the only version of > Atom that exists. Unless this policy has changed I > think your suggestion to use 'Atom 0.3' was contrary > to the spirit of this working group. > The only policy I know of is "tell people not to implement draft-format-nn." I did that. If there's some canned answer I'm supposed to give, someone enlighten me. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 1 19:15:51 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA24926 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 19:15:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA203wuR098720; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 16:03:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA203whh098719; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 16:03:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from dgram.net (stone.dgram.net [38.119.32.210]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA203qpo098584 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 16:03:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mfrumin@eyebeam.org) Received: from [38.119.33.112] (account mfrumin@eyebeam.org HELO [172.16.1.117]) by dgram.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.4) with ESMTP id 774969; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 19:07:33 -0500 Message-ID: <4186CEF2.80504@eyebeam.org> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 19:04:02 -0500 From: Michael Frumin User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mint@franklinmint.fm CC: Dare Obasanjo , atom-syntax@imc.org, Michal Migurski Subject: Re: current status of source and/or via-link tracking syntax References: <20041101222840.78279.qmail@web40802.mail.yahoo.com> <4186BA36.8070500@franklinmint.fm> In-Reply-To: <4186BA36.8070500@franklinmint.fm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thanks for the thoughts. I think that for the moment, we'll do our best to receive atom feeds (vis magpie) but have decided to punt on producing them for the time being. but we'll keep our ears to the ground for Atom 1.0. as i depart, i only have one thought which is to cast my vote, from a pragmatic standpoint, for some syntax to describe the chain of via-links further back than one degree. in principle you should be able to just traverse the linked list, that might be a bit less practical than simply adding a little more payload to the Atom 's list of via links or whatever. -mike Robert Sayre wrote: > Dare Obasanjo wrote: > >> >>> The question was about Atom, the answer was about >>> Atom. >> >> >> >> I seem to remember one of the co-chairs of this >> working group stating that the assumption of this >> working group is that Atom 1.0 is the only version of >> Atom that exists. Unless this policy has changed I >> think your suggestion to use 'Atom 0.3' was contrary >> to the spirit of this working group. > > > The only policy I know of is "tell people not to implement > draft-format-nn." I did that. If there's some canned answer I'm > supposed to give, someone enlighten me. > > Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 1 19:52:58 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA27644 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 19:52:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA20iMhB016525; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 16:44:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA20iMPh016524; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 16:44:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA20iLcM016480 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 16:44:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA20aCA8004973; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 00:36:12 GMT In-Reply-To: <4186CEF2.80504@eyebeam.org> References: <20041101222840.78279.qmail@web40802.mail.yahoo.com> <4186BA36.8070500@franklinmint.fm> <4186CEF2.80504@eyebeam.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-13-789490479; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <33D6C994-2C67-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Cc: Dare Obasanjo , Michal Migurski , mint@franklinmint.fm, atom-syntax@imc.org From: Graham Subject: Re: current status of source and/or via-link tracking syntax Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 00:36:14 +0000 To: Michael Frumin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-13-789490479 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2 Nov 2004, at 12:04 am, Michael Frumin wrote: > as i depart, i only have one thought which is to cast my vote, from a > pragmatic standpoint, for some syntax to describe the chain of > via-links further back than one degree. in principle you should be > able to just traverse the linked list, that might be a bit less > practical than simply adding a little more payload to the Atom > 's list of via links or whatever. Unfortunately the chairs around here are obsessed with forcing all link metadata into a uniform data structure with zero flexibility wrt multiple links are a nested list. Never mind. 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Mon, 1 Nov 2004 20:10:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA212vre023404; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:02:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA212vuj023403; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:02:57 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA212udx023244 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:02:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (203.30.247.2) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:02:35 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 12:02:29 +1100 Subject: Re: current status of source and/or via-link tracking syntax From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4186CEF2.80504@eyebeam.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2/11/04 11:04 AM, "Michael Frumin" wrote: > as i depart, i only have one thought which is to cast my vote, from a > pragmatic standpoint, for some syntax to describe the chain of via-links > further back than one degree. in principle you should be able to just > traverse the linked list, that might be a bit less practical than simply > adding a little more payload to the Atom 's list of via links or > whatever. how about this: which points to an atom feed where each entry refers to each hop in the via list. essentially, leveraging the concept of attaching a feed of comments to an entry. this way you get more bang for the buck, while not overburdening those aggregators that are not interested (only one link to download and then ignore). e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 1 20:11:42 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA28663 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 20:11:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA214A6O023622; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:04:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA214AKq023621; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:04:10 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA214AoW023611; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:04:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from duerst@w3.org) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52CA14F016; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 20:04:13 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20041102093910.076bef88@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 09:56:55 +0900 To: Paul Hoffman / IMC , Atom WG From: Martin Duerst Subject: approval model for registrations (was: Re: Link housekeeping: PaceFieldingLinks and maintenance) Cc: Ned Freed , klensin@jck.com In-Reply-To: References: <6.0.0.20.2.20041026132210.05d2a288@localhost> <6.0.0.20.2.20041027083222.08c0c8b8@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 12:45 04/10/27, Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: [reordering a bit] >In practice, the two models are identical. The IESG person responsible for the experts in both cases usually lets the experts do what they want with little supervision. Either is fine for what we need. I think we still are not understanding each other. There are two clearly different models. The best way to see this is to look at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-freed-media-type-reg-01.txt. [I have copied the authors of this doc just in case we need help.] This is the new proposal for registering media types which is for the most part already used in practice. It uses both models. The "IESG approval" model (see 5.2 IESG Approval) is used for media types in the standards tree. It results in the media type actually being on the IESG telechat, and an official approval notice being sent out from the IETF secretariat to ietf-announce@ietf.org. (just saw two of them today). The "Reviewer" model (see 5.4 Media Types Reviewer) is used for all other media types. The reviewer in this case isn't even appointed by the IESG, but just by the Applications Area Director(s). A decision by the reviewer may be appealed to the IESG, but that rarely if ever happens. No approval notices get sent out to ietf-announce@ietf.org. As I said earlier, for values that would go into the 'rel' attribute on atom:link, I think that requiring "IESG approval" is clearly overkill. Regards, Martin. >At 8:38 AM +0900 10/27/04, Martin Duerst wrote: >>Hello Paul, >> >>At 00:06 04/10/27, Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: >>> >>>At 1:25 PM +0900 10/26/04, Martin Duerst wrote: >>>>- "New assignments must be approved by the IESG.": The most frequent >>>> way registries that I know are updated is by having an expert reviewer. >>>> Bothering the IESG with this is way too much of a hurdle. >>> >>>It is the IESG who assigns expert reviewers and approves their actions. We should let the IESG decide how they want to handle this without us telling them. >> >>It turns out that there seem to be two different models of (expert) >>reviewers. >> >>The one I refered to is where the RFC defines that there is a reviewer >>that has to give his/her okay before things get registered with IANA. >>This is the case for charsets (you should know, because you are the >>reviewer) and language tags (see http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3066.txt, >>Section 3), and media types in general (vnd,...). In these cases, >>the IESG doesn't get involved. >> >>The other model, the one you are referring to, is that the IESG >>assigns reviewers as part of their decision process. In that case, >>it's of course up to the IESG to handle things the way they want. >> >>However, what I was proposing is that we use the model used currently >>for charsets, language tags,..., which is considerably more lightweight >>and in my view more appropriate for the kind of registration we are >>dealing with. > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 1 20:32:17 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA00724 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 20:32:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA21PJtr034356; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:25:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA21PJq1034355; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:25:19 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA21PIuK034312 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:25:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA21PMui025846 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 18:25:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6J00BK62M9XY@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 18:25:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.204.150]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6J00F352M81B@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 18:25:21 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 17:26:06 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: current status of source and/or via-link tracking syntax In-reply-to: <33D6C994-2C67-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> To: Graham Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org, Dare Obasanjo , mint@franklinmint.fm, Michael Frumin , Michal Migurski Message-id: <2B2A3380-2C6E-11D9-A96C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20041101222840.78279.qmail@web40802.mail.yahoo.com> <4186BA36.8070500@franklinmint.fm> <4186CEF2.80504@eyebeam.org> <33D6C994-2C67-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 1, 2004, at 4:36 PM, Graham wrote: > Unfortunately the chairs around here are obsessed with forcing all > link metadata into a uniform data structure with zero flexibility wrt > multiple links are a nested list. Never mind. Calm down, Graham. Both Paul and I would be perfectly happy with several of the link-generalization options that have been thrown around, and neither of us would stand in the way of consensus. The brutal truth is that consensus in this group on this subject is notable by its absence, thus the extremely impoverished state of the atom:link in the current drafts. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 09:58:28 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA26787 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:58:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2Ecd9K047035; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 06:38:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2EcccF047034; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 06:38:38 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2Ecbo4046997 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 06:38:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA2EHdeG004653; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:17:51 GMT In-Reply-To: <2B2A3380-2C6E-11D9-A96C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> References: <20041101222840.78279.qmail@web40802.mail.yahoo.com> <4186BA36.8070500@franklinmint.fm> <4186CEF2.80504@eyebeam.org> <33D6C994-2C67-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <2B2A3380-2C6E-11D9-A96C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-15-838775159; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: Cc: Atom Syntax From: Graham Subject: Re: current status of source and/or via-link tracking syntax Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:17:38 +0000 To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-15-838775159 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2 Nov 2004, at 1:26 am, Tim Bray wrote: > Calm down, Graham. Both Paul and I would be perfectly happy with > several of the link-generalization options that have been thrown > around, and neither of us would stand in the way of consensus. The > brutal truth is that consensus in this group on this subject is > notable by its absence, thus the extremely impoverished state of the > atom:link in the current drafts. Q: Who is actually pushing for extensions that happen to contain URIs to be recognizable? Graham --Apple-Mail-15-838775159 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMTAyMTQxNzM5WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUu5FdARQjrD6aKIG4dToo2Fa8 6DUweAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEAwT/qz+GsKCn9CUxhiQ9SGo8y 7B0u5WLCx8cS8dnU6MqdSdJIK0I9mLiMLayrLTquWglPbo1/wRyAuYW9dSBT8Lf3Ye45mtk9gYyR rXJiqy+ZSMn0p8dMLKAiS/6PZT9x2rvIsJ+9L1LfzviS8iKVZZUxzwpIk+wy/F6P7QxbhQPo5Xln VfxRJ5RR+BIHLlpe0DINCTDLf3IQCH8S55xOY6xnvO8j4BECfildQyMl3G98UETlS6NzmQr7NPg1 6Hh5e1+cH4EmJ1zwIgU22z5LLlyfFmSXQzDPNeXBu4LJoyU3IFKwDXlZJCvAeiidp/UvdZcBrj8K aEeVwNJ8tB40tQAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-15-838775159-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 10:25:54 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA00253 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:25:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2F7J3i056084; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 07:07:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2F7JR0056083; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 07:07:19 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chromium.sabren.com (chromium.sabren.com [69.20.61.177]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2F7IA5056029 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 07:07:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.1.103] (rdu57-27-065.nc.rr.com [66.57.27.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by chromium.sabren.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA2F8Uwj024166; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:08:31 -0500 Message-ID: <4187A2A2.9020109@intertwingly.net> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 10:07:14 -0500 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040803 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham CC: Tim Bray , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: current status of source and/or via-link tracking syntax References: <20041101222840.78279.qmail@web40802.mail.yahoo.com> <4186BA36.8070500@franklinmint.fm> <4186CEF2.80504@eyebeam.org> <33D6C994-2C67-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <2B2A3380-2C6E-11D9-A96C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > On 2 Nov 2004, at 1:26 am, Tim Bray wrote: > >> Calm down, Graham. Both Paul and I would be perfectly happy with >> several of the link-generalization options that have been thrown >> around, and neither of us would stand in the way of consensus. The >> brutal truth is that consensus in this group on this subject is >> notable by its absence, thus the extremely impoverished state of the >> atom:link in the current drafts. > > Q: Who is actually pushing for extensions that happen to contain URIs to > be recognizable? Which Pace are you referring to? - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 10:36:11 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA01897 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:36:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2FO4iS063504; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 07:24:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2FO4dZ063503; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 07:24:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2FO3BG063470 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 07:24:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA2FHlfb009810; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:17:52 GMT In-Reply-To: <4187A2A2.9020109@intertwingly.net> References: <20041101222840.78279.qmail@web40802.mail.yahoo.com> <4186BA36.8070500@franklinmint.fm> <4186CEF2.80504@eyebeam.org> <33D6C994-2C67-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <2B2A3380-2C6E-11D9-A96C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <4187A2A2.9020109@intertwingly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-16-842383930; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <5ACADC5E-2CE2-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Cc: Atom Syntax , Tim Bray From: Graham Subject: Re: current status of source and/or via-link tracking syntax Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:17:47 +0000 To: Sam Ruby X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-16-842383930 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2 Nov 2004, at 3:07 pm, Sam Ruby wrote: >> Q: Who is actually pushing for extensions that happen to contain URIs >> to be recognizable? > > Which Pace are you referring to? Cute. Now answer the question. (Requiring spec text to be written before ideological issues have been settled was the worst thing this group's ever done btw) Graham --Apple-Mail-16-842383930 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMTAyMTUxNzQ4WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUfpqB7Bup9tWMg+FF0ryaUTmX IGQweAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEAndnBgGO8FikswA+/5eAWBjxR Gr+oWmZolFyMYv4phf6TZACX121ARbdKb0CkCjpIRzchN4Zzreg8IqsPrEuL7HBBYT81ACTWteyW uxXPXkSuoxG6hddVFvCGQo7OJxq8+6kFHM+8T94DCuUceYBZHRcG1EOkNw6yocnhDCUuPSqc8XuI lJAeMAZRLoqmFNK6ZacwSpZ/NucUrbiVFUMDpSuTluX1Z4OIhAvxgvj/NWzBbcC8mIoGdSrwph4e aa728CdyoFVv2MBI5Kzt2rs/rAZnV9taBQUvqfIf5q2Z2+XdOSLEy8WUxLv0txcGi4OOZbGy9oLB yOU9Wh4c5joHcAAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-16-842383930-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 10:38:47 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA02028 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:38:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2FQZlQ064359; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 07:26:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2FQZfP064358; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 07:26:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2FQZCB064335 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 07:26:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004110215263101400s80n3e>; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:26:32 +0000 Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:26:30 -0700 Subject: Re: PaceDateModified Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <200410291543.BWQ46569@ms8.netsolmail.com> Message-Id: <925CEB7D-2CE3-11D9-8145-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Back from vacation and...HOLY GUACAMOLE! Lots of reading to do. On Friday, October 29, 2004, at 09:42 AM, Bob Wyman wrote: > If atom:updated is used to flag only those changes that the author > of an entry wishes to bring to the attention of readers, then it seems > to me > that intermediaries should respect the publisher's statements and > ignore any > updates that are not so flagged. If this is correct, then any change > detection on the part of intermediaries should be considered a bad > thing. > Intermediaries should not be generating entry hashes or otherwise > trying to > detect changes. > The model seems to be that an aggregator needs to build a database > of entries that has columns for atom:id and atom:updated. I should > then only > process those entries that have atom:updated values that are greater > then > what was previously stored for any given atom:id. No matter how great > the > difference may be between two versions of an entry, I should not pay > any > attention to the difference unless explicitly "told to" by a new > atom:updated value. > This implies that if I find multiple versions of an entry, I should > ignore all but the *first* instance of an entry found with any > particular > atom:updated value. I should not be concerned with identifying the > "latest" > version since any version that shares the same atom:updated value is > equivalent in the opinion of the publisher. The opinion of the > publisher is > paramount in these issues. > > Does what I've said above match what is believed by those who > support atom:updated Here's what I'd expect an aggregator to do: 1) Find new atom:id/atom:updated combo: send it on to your subscribers 2) Find old atom:id/atom:updated combo in entry with other data changed: update internal cache so that if the entry is still in the sliding window be sent to some user, it gets sent with the changes > to the exclusion of atom:modified? I'm responding to your question in spite of the fact that I'm not necessarily opposed to publishing this information, just that I'd rather see it in a dcterms element. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 10:51:37 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA03212 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:51:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2FbBPS068476; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 07:37:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2FbBb0068475; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 07:37:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2FbBQX068444 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 07:37:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <20041102153708011002vq0ee>; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:37:08 +0000 Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:37:06 -0700 Subject: Re: PaceDateModified Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <200410291947.BWR04928@ms8.netsolmail.com> Message-Id: <0D3563E2-2CE5-11D9-8145-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Friday, October 29, 2004, at 01:47 PM, Bob Wyman wrote: > There is an implication here that if the > publisher does *not* change the atom:updated value, then the publisher > "does > not wish to bring this change to the attention of subscribers." If the > publisher does not wish attention to be drawn to the change, then why > would > aggregators, in-channel intermediaries, search-engines, etc. process > the > change? Why are we providing mechanisms to make it easier for > publishers to > publish data that they don't care if anyone reads? If they don't change atom:updated, then the implication is that they don't want to bug subscribers by saying "hey, guess what--this entry is changed" if they've already read the entry, but the entry should still be updated in the caches of intermediaries so that the modified entry will go out to people who haven't yet seen it, or to people for whom the entry is still in the sliding window. > Personally, I think that the atom:updated is simply too confusing > and should be replaced by the much simpler and more easily understood > atom:modified. I am not convinced that there are a usefully large > number of > cases in which the publisher will change and republish an entry yet > not wish > to "bring this change to the attention of subscribers." If I make a spelling change, a grammatical adjustment, etc. (which is not an uncommon occurrence), and have the option of not bugging people who've already read the entry by hilighting the trivial change, I will certainly take advantage of that option. If I subscribe to a feed in which trivial changes like that ARE hilighted, I will be VERY likely to unsubscribe. I've unsubscribed in the past from feeds that were otherwise exactly what I wanted, but often had entries that kept showing up as new due to trivial changes. I doubt that this is an edge case. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 10:56:09 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA03524 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:56:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2Fk3NF071674; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 07:46:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2Fk37G071673; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 07:46:03 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2Fk3kU071664 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 07:46:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CP0rA-0006x0-3l; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 15:46:00 +0000 Message-ID: <4187ABB6.6020502@franklinmint.fm> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 10:45:58 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham CC: Atom Syntax , Tim Bray Subject: Re: current status of source and/or via-link tracking syntax References: <20041101222840.78279.qmail@web40802.mail.yahoo.com> <4186BA36.8070500@franklinmint.fm> <4186CEF2.80504@eyebeam.org> <33D6C994-2C67-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <2B2A3380-2C6E-11D9-A96C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <4187A2A2.9020109@intertwingly.net> <5ACADC5E-2CE2-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <5ACADC5E-2CE2-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > On 2 Nov 2004, at 3:07 pm, Sam Ruby wrote: > >>> Q: Who is actually pushing for extensions that happen to contain URIs >>> to be recognizable? >> Everyone except you, near as I can tell. I can't find anyone in the archives besides yourself squwking about this issue. People already want to create their own. It's not hard to find feature requests. I support PaceFieldingLinks. Is this a problem to implement in your software? Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 11:07:40 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA04573 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:07:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2Fx3aw077539; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 07:59:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2Fx3B1077538; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 07:59:03 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2Fx3LI077490 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 07:59:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004110215585701300bp1lbe>; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:58:57 +0000 Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:58:55 -0700 Subject: Re: PaceDateModified Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <19B2330C-2CE8-11D9-8145-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iA2Fx3LI077533 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Saturday, October 30, 2004, at 12:00 PM, Asbjørn Ulsberg wrote: > ... what an aggregator should do whenever atom:updated changes for a > given entry. Should it: > > 1. Update the entry's content. > 2. Mark the entry as unread. > 3. Score it upwards in the message pool. > 4. (And then) do nothing. > I think #1 is obviously expected behavior. Beyond that, handling could vary. I would like an aggregator to give me the option on a feed-by-feed basis to have the entry marked updated (not unread--I'd like to see a distinction between the two) or not. Some publishers are going to feel that every spelling fix is a significant change, which is their prerogative. I don't think that spelling changes are a big deal, so if the ratio of spelling-fix-like changes to updates-that-I-think-are-significant is too high, I won't want to be told about changes to atom:updated in those feeds. In other feeds where atom:updated is generally changed only when a change is made that makes me want to see the entry again, I'll want to be notified. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 11:16:31 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA05326 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:16:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2G7CYa079856; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:07:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2G7Cb8079855; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:07:12 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2G7BEp079820 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:07:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA2Fxv37004900; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:59:57 GMT In-Reply-To: <4187ABB6.6020502@franklinmint.fm> References: <20041101222840.78279.qmail@web40802.mail.yahoo.com> <4186BA36.8070500@franklinmint.fm> <4186CEF2.80504@eyebeam.org> <33D6C994-2C67-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <2B2A3380-2C6E-11D9-A96C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <4187A2A2.9020109@intertwingly.net> <5ACADC5E-2CE2-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <4187ABB6.6020502@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-17-844914867; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <3F594078-2CE8-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Cc: Atom Syntax , Tim Bray From: Graham Subject: Re: current status of source and/or via-link tracking syntax Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:59:58 +0000 To: mint@franklinmint.fm X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-17-844914867 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2 Nov 2004, at 3:45 pm, Robert Sayre wrote: > Everyone except you, near as I can tell. I can't find anyone in the > archives besides yourself squwking about this issue. I don't think everyone does support it, I think they just aren't bothered. I can't think of anyone who would be upset if the extensibility within the link element was removed. The only people I've seen say as a good idea didn't seem too enthusiastic - they seemed to be saying it on behalf of someone else, ie "I guess someone might find that useful". That bothers me, because the lack of consensus here is mostly being caused by how to implement a feature no one is too bothered about. > People already want to create their own. It's not hard to find feature > requests. Why can't they use new or namespaced elements like every other extension type? Dates don't have a rel mechanism, for example. Graham --Apple-Mail-17-844914867 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMTAyMTU1OTU5WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUYJDf51tgoCXEZfmRBvyb4SMC JwMweAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEAFa2rpDnuDA90+Xbe9ZjRByrY B4f01JBAou7BQutECiMlX9jdWLyjWk2XEk9qedX8Gjqde0Nps7DUHO/UBWOswZXeveG7UDtGAgHF P5Fpf815R2Dj/Oy5ZQk9DQhlYkB7Mo0NYmkoaJSJcm9yMYsz8mHsUafcsYQIrZ60sGrCGzMAfhgh 4N0WKaFd911m+TCsCCIdFDxuUXd35982BO1x1MOoXKYScDAbu0B2E12Ws/210Wc04Vzqss2Rgoz3 IDjGVdvbM7Hrh2/2qabCNM/vEzbUaUyDNf2BuM71TXHtTFJETg+FrztFlVNkPVpaQiEaBkQZSFIT qcThVU06H3ZulQAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-17-844914867-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 11:29:28 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA06892 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:29:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2GKMgW084120; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:20:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2GKMfS084119; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:20:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2GKLaD084106 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:20:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CP1OP-0000IU-1F; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 16:20:21 +0000 Message-ID: <4187B3C3.9080401@franklinmint.fm> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 11:20:19 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham CC: Atom Syntax , Tim Bray Subject: Re: current status of source and/or via-link tracking syntax References: <20041101222840.78279.qmail@web40802.mail.yahoo.com> <4186BA36.8070500@franklinmint.fm> <4186CEF2.80504@eyebeam.org> <33D6C994-2C67-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <2B2A3380-2C6E-11D9-A96C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <4187A2A2.9020109@intertwingly.net> <5ACADC5E-2CE2-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <4187ABB6.6020502@franklinmint.fm> <3F594078-2CE8-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <3F594078-2CE8-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > On 2 Nov 2004, at 3:45 pm, Robert Sayre wrote: > >> Everyone except you, near as I can tell. I can't find anyone in the >> archives besides yourself squwking about this issue. > > > I don't think everyone does support it, I think they just aren't > bothered. I can't think of anyone who would be upset if the > extensibility within the link element was removed. Except for all the people that support it, which is everyone who's spoken on the issue except yourself. We already have people creating stuff like "via", "related", "about", "enclosure". We didn't foresee any of those in Atom 0.3. They have additional semantics, but they also make perfect sense as a plain old link. > >> People already want to create their own. It's not hard to find feature >> requests. > > Why can't they use new or namespaced elements like every other extension > type? They could, but prior art shows us that treating links specially is worth it. How about you answer my question. What problem does PaceFieldingLinks pose for your software? How does it hurt interop? Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 11:36:49 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA07632 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:36:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2GOQv9085686; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:24:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2GOP5X085680; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:24:25 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr3.netsolmail.com (omr3.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.164]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2GOP5W085671 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:24:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr3.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA2GOIrd007736; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:24:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BXC08848 (AUTH bob@wyman.us); Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:24:16 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411021624.BXC08848@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Michael Frumin'" , Cc: "'Michal Migurski'" Subject: RE: current status of source and/or via-link tracking syntax Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:22:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: <41869746.6060908@eyebeam.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-Index: AcTAWK8RNLfPWXfBQBCfrybo+Qk+dgAnWaAw Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Frumin wrote: > For our new release, we want to incorporate some of the atom syntax for > indicating original source feeds and where'd-I-find-this Via links. Please consider: http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceHeadInEntry This is an update to the practice that we follow today with all PubSub.com feeds.[2] For each entry/item that we republish, we copy the source feed's "feed-metadata" into an element named "ps:source-feed" (in both RSS and Atom). The idea is that when an entry is extracted from a feed, it should be accompanied by those parts of the source-feed's meta-data that are important for interpreting the entry or placing it in context. We are *really* hoping that this gets into Atom V1.0 and will change from ps:source-feed to atom:head when that change occurs. I expect that the "Atom over XMPP"[1] specification will be modified to support PaceHeadInEntry once/if the WG accepts it. The issue of "via" links is not addressed in PaceHeadInEntry. bob wyman [1] http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-saintandre-atompub-notify-01.txt [2] For a sample feed consider either of the following: http://rss.pubsub.com/0a/46/66f253a3dfea0cef64ede47ddd.xml http://atom.pubsub.com/0a/46/66f253a3dfea0cef64ede47ddd.xml From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 11:43:27 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA08797 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:43:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2GYoJP088588; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:34:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2GYo08088587; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:34:50 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2GYo62088546 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:34:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <20041102163444012009rpeue>; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 16:34:45 +0000 Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:34:42 -0700 Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <4183BDA4.6050307@franklinmint.fm> Message-Id: <196AF35E-2CED-11D9-8145-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Saturday, October 30, 2004, at 10:13 AM, Robert Sayre wrote: >> But actually, I'm OK with the text in the draft as it is. -Tim > > I'm OK with my interpretation of the text in the current draft, but > not with the interpretation of others. A spelling correction may not > big deal in long pieces like you write, but I tend to write about > 10-20 words per post. A misspelled word can make something I write > completely unparsable. > The point of atom:updated is to signal publisher intent. That intent will differ from publisher to publisher, and even from feed to feed from the same publisher. "For example, such changes might not include minor adjustments like spelling and grammatical corrections." ...but it's up to the publisher to make that determination. In some cases, spelling fixes can be extremely significant. Examples: * Trivial spelling fix (even though the entry is short): Original: I carved a pumkin on Halloween. Fixed: I carved a pumpkin on Halloween. * Critical spelling fix: Original: I work at a restaurant. I eat people. Fixed: I work at a restaurant. I seat people. * Critical spelling fix: Original: Nt bane us Abtibe Fixed: My name is Antone (In the original, which was published very hastily, the publisher's right hand was one key too far left on the keyboard). Of course, some publishers may feel the the first change is significant and may want to mark it with a change to atom:updated. That's their prerogative, but it's not what we (myself and anyone who agrees with me, which I assume(?) is most of us) intended. The sentence mentioning spelling corrections is there to communicate that intention. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 11:53:56 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA10655 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:53:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2GhneT091393; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:43:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2GhnKO091392; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:43:49 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2GhmZo091385 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:43:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CP1l6-0001iZ-FW; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 16:43:48 +0000 Message-ID: <4187B943.5080405@franklinmint.fm> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 11:43:47 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Antone Roundy CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition References: <196AF35E-2CED-11D9-8145-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> In-Reply-To: <196AF35E-2CED-11D9-8145-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Antone Roundy wrote: > > On Saturday, October 30, 2004, at 10:13 AM, Robert Sayre wrote: > >>> But actually, I'm OK with the text in the draft as it is. -Tim >> >> >> I'm OK with my interpretation of the text in the current draft, but >> not with the interpretation of others. A spelling correction may not >> big deal in long pieces like you write, but I tend to write about >> 10-20 words per post. A misspelled word can make something I write >> completely unparsable. >> > The point of atom:updated is to signal publisher intent. That intent > will differ from publisher to publisher, and even from feed to feed from > the same publisher. "For example, such changes might not include minor > adjustments like spelling and grammatical corrections." ...but it's up > to the publisher to make that determination. > The sentence mentioning > spelling corrections is there to communicate that intention. > This WG was misinterpreting that sentence. Not a good sign. Do you have a problem with the wording of the Pace? It got a +1 from Eric, Danny, Graham and Roger. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 12:00:37 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA11642 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:00:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2GrEwa094758; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:53:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2GrEM9094757; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:53:14 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2GrEDi094708 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:53:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <20041102165308015007elube>; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 16:53:08 +0000 Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:53:07 -0700 Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <4183CE50.30202@franklinmint.fm> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Saturday, October 30, 2004, at 11:24 AM, Robert Sayre wrote: > Graham wrote: >>> Graham. Who decides what constitutes a significant update? >> For the millionth time, the publisher. > > OK, I don't see how the current text differs in that respect, but I'll > try to drive that point home, without mentioning "spelling" in a > normative section of the spec. How's this: > > The "atom:updated" element is a Date construct indicating the most > recent instant in time when the [feed/entry] was modified in a way > the producer considers significant. Ergo, not all modifications > necessarily result in a changed atom:updated value. > -1. I think the current draft text defines a much more useful element--one which can be used to signal the publisher's desires with respect to the modification--that people who read it before will be alerted to the change. The meaning text above is very unclear to me--what criteria am I as a publisher supposed to use to determine whether an update is significant? You're giving me no guidance at all. As a consumer, I don't know whether the publisher is suggesting that I read the entry again, or whether they thought the change was significant but doesn't warrant re-reading. For example, the publisher may have changed a lot of wording, reordered some paragraphs, etc., and thought "yeah, that's a significant change", so changed atom:updated. But if you were to ask them whether they'd like to have subscribers reread the entry they might respond "no, none of the IDEAS in the entry have changed, so there's no need to reread it." Perhaps the current draft text would benefit from clarification, but I don't think removing the text about publisher intent is the way to go. The point about spelling might be moved to an example. Including both significant and trivial spelling change examples, a "trivial" major rewriting example, and perhaps a significant minor rewrite example might go further in clarifying the use of this element than any normative text. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 12:08:17 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA12739 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:08:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2H1go1096702; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:01:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2H1gOb096701; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:01:42 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2H1gWW096691 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:01:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004110217014001300bpoaue>; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 17:01:40 +0000 Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:01:39 -0700 Subject: Re: current status of source and/or via-link tracking syntax Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <4187B3C3.9080401@franklinmint.fm> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, November 2, 2004, at 09:20 AM, Robert Sayre wrote: > Graham wrote: >> On 2 Nov 2004, at 3:45 pm, Robert Sayre wrote: >>> Everyone except you, near as I can tell. I can't find anyone in the >>> archives besides yourself squwking about this issue. >> I don't think everyone does support it, I think they just aren't >> bothered. I can't think of anyone who would be upset if the >> extensibility within the link element was removed. > Except for all the people that support it, which is everyone who's > spoken on the issue except yourself. We already have people creating > stuff like "via", "related", "about", "enclosure". We didn't foresee > any of those in Atom 0.3. They have additional semantics, but they > also make perfect sense as a plain old link. > Yes, exactly. Suggestions for new @rel values keep popping up (many of which make sense as a plain old link...though some don't), which strongly suggests to me that we may not have thought of all of them yet, that we may not think of all of them by the time atom 1.0 is finished, and that WE may never think of all of them. Thus, leaving an opening for whoever DOES think of them to get them in seems like a good idea. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 12:12:39 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA13067 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:12:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2H6EZ2097781; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:06:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2H6EYZ097780; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:06:14 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr1.netsolmail.com (omr1.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.162]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2H6Dgk097774 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:06:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr1.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA2H6Bq1017822; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:06:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BXC26501 (AUTH bob@wyman.us); Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:06:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411021706.BXC26501@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Graham'" , "'Michael Frumin'" Cc: "'Dare Obasanjo'" , "'Michal Migurski'" , , Subject: RE: current status of source and/or via-link tracking syntax Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:04:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: <33D6C994-2C67-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-Index: AcTAd2O6RG+q3tOeSyGqq2c+P75YRwAgsyUQ Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > Unfortunately the chairs around here are obsessed with forcing > all link metadata into a uniform data structure with zero > flexibility wrt multiple links are a nested list. Never mind. Just to confuse matters a bit, I'd like to suggest that folk take a look at the RDF/A Syntax[1] which may be useful for us in general while also making the RDF folk a bit happier then they otherwise might be. RDF/A provides a means for layering RDF information on any XML document by defining a new XML syntax for RDF that relies only on XML attributes. Given that many of the things that people want to do with the proposed extensions to atom:link look very "RDF-like", it might be useful to rely on a proposal that comes from RDF-land... For an example of something that you can do with recognizable links in an environment that assumes the ability to scan large quantities of feeds for interesting bits of data (using PubSub, Feedster, Technorati, etc.) take a look at what Technorati has implemented to track "votes"[2]. (A particularly relevant capability today...) Technorati supports: John Kerry George Bush Also, consider what I[3] and others[4] have suggested in the past as a useful way of linking entries to topics, ideas, categories, etc. bob wyman [1] http://www.formsplayer.com/notes/rdf-a.html [2] http://developers.technorati.com/wiki/VoteLinks See vote results at: http://www.technorati.com/live/votes.html [3] http://bobwyman.pubsub.com/main/2004/02/making_categori.html [4] http://matt.blogs.it/specs/ENT/1.0/ (Easy News Topics) From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 12:13:31 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA13202 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:13:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2H7Tei098144; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:07:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2H7TWq098143; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:07:29 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2H7SjY098134 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:07:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CP280-0003Br-IH; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 17:07:28 +0000 Message-ID: <4187BECE.109@franklinmint.fm> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 12:07:26 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Antone Roundy CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Antone Roundy wrote: >> > -1. > > I think the current draft text defines a much more useful element The fact that it took you two long paragraphs to describe the functionality you _think_ is present in atom:updated proves that it's a horrbile definition. The format has no business classifying spelling mistakes. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 12:18:39 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA13825 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:18:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2HAYjU099370; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:10:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2HAYZU099369; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:10:34 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.201]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2HAXCt099363 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:10:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 80so124956rnl for ; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 09:10:22 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=YZYJ7zHCfGHr7IDBkENGmaL1I3A0WUeOHKZEZkkW9i3rf+bXlZG2LLcGcvxZCm2R6YzpFMY2lWJLkAyjhcdKwmLTCkVlEkXmg35JcKexkDa9vzOuJRcu5BdyNQNtACtU74gucz3IXI1AL6ratXE+olIpk19QYwlVQxfdEtIYo7w= Received: by 10.38.206.5 with SMTP id d5mr633384rng; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 09:10:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:10:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04110209107b6ca9e7@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:10:18 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: PaceDateModified Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <19B2330C-2CE8-11D9-8145-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <19B2330C-2CE8-11D9-8145-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iA2HAYCt099364 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:58:55 -0700, Antone Roundy wrote: > > On Saturday, October 30, 2004, at 12:00 PM, Asbjørn Ulsberg wrote: > > ... what an aggregator should do whenever atom:updated changes for a > > given entry. Should it: > > > > 1. Update the entry's content. > > 2. Mark the entry as unread. > > 3. Score it upwards in the message pool. > > 4. (And then) do nothing. > > > I think #1 is obviously expected behavior. Beyond that, handling could > vary. I would like an aggregator to give me the option on a > feed-by-feed basis to have the entry marked updated (not unread--I'd > like to see a distinction between the two) or not. Some publishers are > going to feel that every spelling fix is a significant change, which is > their prerogative. I don't think that spelling changes are a big deal, > so if the ratio of spelling-fix-like changes to > updates-that-I-think-are-significant is too high, I won't want to be > told about changes to atom:updated in those feeds. In other feeds > where atom:updated is generally changed only when a change is made that > makes me want to see the entry again, I'll want to be notified. Let me get this straight, with atom:updated alone you expect it to be likely for the client to want to decide on a per-feed basis on how to behave when the value is changed? If that is the case, would you think the same decisions would have to be made if there was an additional atom:modified value, changed on for every minor modification with atom:updated reserved for publisher-significant changes? Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 12:22:01 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA14232 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:22:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2HFLax001625; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:15:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2HFLWp001624; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:15:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40808.mail.yahoo.com (web40808.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.78.185]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA2HFLgT001591 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:15:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20041102171519.65457.qmail@web40808.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.18.132.123] by web40808.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 09:15:19 PST Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:15:19 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: current status of source and/or via-link tracking syntax To: Graham , mint@franklinmint.fm Cc: Atom Syntax , Tim Bray In-Reply-To: <3F594078-2CE8-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --- Graham wrote: > > I don't think everyone does support it, I think they > just aren't > bothered. I can't think of anyone who would be upset > if the > extensibility within the link element was removed. > The only people I've > seen say as a good idea didn't seem too enthusiastic > - they seemed to > be saying it on behalf of someone else, ie "I guess > someone might find > that useful". That bothers me, because the lack of > consensus here is > mostly being caused by how to implement a feature no > one is too > bothered about. Moving specs forward is about compromise. PaceFieldingLinks hits the sweet spot in simplicity and satisfying the various folks who want link extensibility. If this gets the working group past arguing about link extensibility then it is all goodness. ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 12:31:42 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA15208 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:31:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2HODV9005130; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:24:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2HODSo005129; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:24:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2HOCbL005121 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:24:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2HOFNH027226 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:24:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe7 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6K00ECLB0FSP@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 10:24:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6K00LKOB0EVJ@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 10:24:15 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 09:25:01 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: PaceHeadInEntry In-reply-to: <200411021624.BXC08848@ms8.netsolmail.com> To: bob@wyman.us Cc: "'Michal Migurski'" , atom-syntax@imc.org, "'Michael Frumin'" Message-id: <207DC2CC-2CF4-11D9-A96C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <200411021624.BXC08848@ms8.netsolmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 2, 2004, at 8:22 AM, Bob Wyman wrote: > > Michael Frumin wrote: >> For our new release, we want to incorporate some of the atom syntax >> for >> indicating original source feeds and where'd-I-find-this Via links. > > Please consider: > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceHeadInEntry Would it be an oversimplification to say that this provides by value what atom:origin provides by reference? -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 12:34:26 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA15701 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:34:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2HSeQ6006463; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:28:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2HSeUk006462; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:28:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail08.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail08.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.24]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA2HSdnn006429 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:28:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 55263 messnum 3858217 invoked from network[62.77.172.85/62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net]); 2 Nov 2004 17:28:36 -0000 Received: from 62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net (HELO ?200.200.200.35?) (62.77.172.85) by mail08.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 55263) with SMTP; 2 Nov 2004 17:28:36 -0000 Message-ID: <4187C3BE.4000208@dehora.net> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 17:28:30 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8a1) Gecko/20040520 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Antone Roundy wrote: > > I think the current draft text defines a much more useful element--one > which can be used to signal the publisher's desires with respect to the > modification--that people who read it before will be alerted to the > change. The meaning text above is very unclear to me--what criteria am > I as a publisher supposed to use to determine whether an update is > significant? You're giving me no guidance at all. > >For example, the publisher may have changed a lot > of wording, reordered some paragraphs, etc., and thought "yeah, that's a > significant change", so changed atom:updated. But if you were to ask > them whether they'd like to have subscribers reread the entry they might > respond "no, none of the IDEAS in the entry have changed, so there's no > need to reread it." I think the level of discrimination in intent some people are looking for with these dates isn't best achieved with the Atom spec. I suggest leaving this to people's own writing/publishing processes or UI design. My preferred text for this element is this: [[[ The "atom:updated" element is a Date construct indicating the time when the [feed/entry] was changed. Not all modifications to an entry require a changed atom:updated value. ]]] ie, Robert hasn't gone far enough. My strong opinion is that with qualifying fluff, we're imposing on users to decide about things they needn't be bothered about much if any of the time. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 12:46:22 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA16645 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:46:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2HcUpN009315; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:38:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2HcUCM009314; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:38:30 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2HcTZA009291 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:38:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <20041102173827011002ut0de>; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 17:38:27 +0000 Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:38:26 -0700 Subject: Re: PaceDateModified Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd04110209107b6ca9e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-Id: <004FDD87-2CF6-11D9-8145-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iA2HcTZA009308 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tuesday, November 2, 2004, at 10:10 AM, Danny Ayers wrote: > On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:58:55 -0700, Antone Roundy > wrote: >> On Saturday, October 30, 2004, at 12:00 PM, Asbjørn Ulsberg wrote: >>> ... what an aggregator should do whenever atom:updated changes for a >>> given entry. Should it: >>> >>> 1. Update the entry's content. >>> 2. Mark the entry as unread. >>> 3. Score it upwards in the message pool. >>> 4. (And then) do nothing. >>> >> I think #1 is obviously expected behavior. Beyond that, handling >> could >> vary. I would like an aggregator to give me the option on a >> feed-by-feed basis to have the entry marked updated (not unread--I'd >> like to see a distinction between the two) or not. Some publishers >> are >> going to feel that every spelling fix is a significant change, which >> is >> their prerogative. I don't think that spelling changes are a big >> deal, >> so if the ratio of spelling-fix-like changes to >> updates-that-I-think-are-significant is too high, I won't want to be >> told about changes to atom:updated in those feeds. In other feeds >> where atom:updated is generally changed only when a change is made >> that >> makes me want to see the entry again, I'll want to be notified. > > Let me get this straight, with atom:updated alone you expect it to be > likely for the client to want to decide on a per-feed basis on how to > behave when the value is changed? > > If that is the case, would you think the same decisions would have to > be made if there was an additional atom:modified value, changed on for > every minor modification with atom:updated reserved for > publisher-significant changes? > Yes, I do. The reason is that, just as some publishers will write what I would consider bad titles or summaries (titles and summaries that don't do a good job of helping me to know what is in the content), some publishers will do what I consider to be a bad job of deciding whether a change to an entry warrants my rereading of it. But others will do a good job, and I'd like atom:updated to be available for them. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 12:51:36 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA17139 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:51:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2HfjqG010396; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:41:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2Hfj3J010395; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:41:45 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2HfjXl010389 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:41:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 80so126930rnl for ; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 09:41:43 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=GxY2ou9fhvMy9g4I89hp6EFR7KVxmxm+QwwojBbrP7PKaSPQRsmk3uzL0QT+5cnd5JrvKklQN5rDBDOz22sOHYe2B5NLQUokg4R0400zkeeoi9fMp2lPJH1tw+yc2nEn7SITERDX1FhpupxxRnjPImsr0a5kuzsgtNRi3EbtzAg= Received: by 10.38.10.67 with SMTP id 67mr10273rnj; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 09:41:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:41:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04110209415bb5f409@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:41:43 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: mint@franklinmint.fm Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition Cc: Antone Roundy , atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <4187B943.5080405@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <196AF35E-2CED-11D9-8145-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <4187B943.5080405@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 11:43:47 -0500, Robert Sayre wrote: > This WG was misinterpreting that sentence. Not a good sign. Do you have > a problem with the wording of the Pace? It got a +1 from Eric, Danny, > Graham and Roger. To be honest I'm a little confused as to where we stand right now. Not easy to see what's going on when more than one Pace is impacted by these hundreds of posts... -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 13:06:55 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA21787 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:06:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2Hqq8b014654; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:52:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2HqqCX014653; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:52:52 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.199]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2HqqUW014645 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:52:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 80so127638rnl for ; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 09:52:50 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=r8l5NDVrSHIiFyelS/iBGRZhC0X7Td0uEsvuxQozpuA6z/r0LdGlNMUBPS8lqi86Rvv49aZAHgFV7VAnUWmnfnXnDc6IHZaf8bRDG6gukgNldGNzsvSB5KWOyLyvpGtNP5Oe8XBIxLFnIdNb/qMrBNzlwfIXupx2IYJMkXhUXkk= Received: by 10.38.10.67 with SMTP id 67mr14239rnj; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 09:52:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:52:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd041102095246bd6c7e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:52:49 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: PaceDateModified Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <004FDD87-2CF6-11D9-8145-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <1f2ed5cd04110209107b6ca9e7@mail.gmail.com> <004FDD87-2CF6-11D9-8145-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iA2HqqUW014648 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:38:26 -0700, Antone Roundy wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, November 2, 2004, at 10:10 AM, Danny Ayers wrote: > > On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:58:55 -0700, Antone Roundy > > wrote: > >> On Saturday, October 30, 2004, at 12:00 PM, Asbjørn Ulsberg wrote: > >>> ... what an aggregator should do whenever atom:updated changes for a > >>> given entry. Should it: > >>> > >>> 1. Update the entry's content. > >>> 2. Mark the entry as unread. > >>> 3. Score it upwards in the message pool. > >>> 4. (And then) do nothing. > >>> > >> I think #1 is obviously expected behavior. Beyond that, handling > >> could > >> vary. I would like an aggregator to give me the option on a > >> feed-by-feed basis to have the entry marked updated (not unread--I'd > >> like to see a distinction between the two) or not. Some publishers > >> are > >> going to feel that every spelling fix is a significant change, which > >> is > >> their prerogative. I don't think that spelling changes are a big > >> deal, > >> so if the ratio of spelling-fix-like changes to > >> updates-that-I-think-are-significant is too high, I won't want to be > >> told about changes to atom:updated in those feeds. In other feeds > >> where atom:updated is generally changed only when a change is made > >> that > >> makes me want to see the entry again, I'll want to be notified. > > > > Let me get this straight, with atom:updated alone you expect it to be > > likely for the client to want to decide on a per-feed basis on how to > > behave when the value is changed? > > > > If that is the case, would you think the same decisions would have to > > be made if there was an additional atom:modified value, changed on for > > every minor modification with atom:updated reserved for > > publisher-significant changes? > > > Yes, I do. The reason is that, just as some publishers will write what > I would consider bad titles or summaries (titles and summaries that > don't do a good job of helping me to know what is in the content), some > publishers will do what I consider to be a bad job of deciding whether > a change to an entry warrants my rereading of it. But others will do a > good job, and I'd like atom:updated to be available for them. Ok, that makes sense. It seems like this is actually orthogonal to the uses of an 'objective' (machine-determined) date. Perhaps this ties in with Asbjørn's notion of the difference between protocol-metadata and format-metadata. This could maybe also be expressed by saying that where atom:modified is information about the payload atom:updated is conceptually part of the payload. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 13:11:30 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA22921 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:11:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2I3wH7018878; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:03:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2I3wiB018877; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:03:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2I3v5i018771 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:03:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004110218034701400scaepe>; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:03:47 +0000 Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:03:46 -0700 Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <4187BECE.109@franklinmint.fm> Message-Id: <8A62BE70-2CF9-11D9-8145-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, November 2, 2004, at 10:07 AM, Robert Sayre wrote: > Antone Roundy wrote: >> I think the current draft text defines a much more useful element > > The fact that it took you two long paragraphs to describe the > functionality you _think_ is present in atom:updated proves that it's > a horrbile definition. I'll try to avoid being snippy here. First of all, my second paragraph began with "Perhaps the current draft text would benefit from clarification"--I'm not claiming that the wording is perfect--just that some of the meaning that the current draft text attempts to convey which is absent from PaceUpdatedDefinition is useful meaning. Second, my first paragraph contains one sentence describing the functionality I'd like to see atom:updated to be used for. The rest of it describes what I think are the shortcomings of PaceUpdatedDefinition. > The format has no business classifying spelling mistakes. Sure, the spec has no business specifying normative, compulsory treatment of spelling adjustments with respect to atom:updated. But providing examples to clarify the intended usage of an element is definitely in bounds. And I think spelling adjustment examples are not only in bounds, but very useful. > Original: I carved a pumkin on Halloween. > Fixed: I carved a pumpkin on Halloween. What subscriber on this planet is going to want to reread an entry just because a trivial spelling mistake like this was fixed? Most people will probably have understood the entry perfectly the first time and won't have noticed the spelling mistake at all. > Original: I work at a restaurant. I eat people. > Fixed: I work at a restaurant. I seat people. The difference between a cannibal and an usher (or whatever they're called in a restaurant) is pretty important. This example is good for ensuring that publishers don't think that all spelling fixes are out-of-bounds for atom:updated. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 13:19:25 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA23973 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:19:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2ICHWH022126; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:12:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2ICHq9022125; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:12:17 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40821.mail.yahoo.com (web40821.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.92.68]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA2ICGnc022068 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:12:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20041102181212.85342.qmail@web40821.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.18.132.123] by web40821.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 10:12:12 PST Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:12:12 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition To: Bill de "hÓra" , atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <4187C3BE.4000208@dehora.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --- Bill de hÓra wrote: > > I think the level of discrimination in intent some > people are > looking for with these dates isn't best achieved > with the Atom spec. > I suggest leaving this to people's own > writing/publishing processes > or UI design. +1 Folks are trying to mandate UI behavior in aggregators via spec text which will most likely be ignored by aggregator authors anyway. atom:modified is likely to be too noisy for aggregators to actually use it as an active means of signifiying changes to an entry. It may make sense as a passive means of indicating changes. The usage of atom:updated will likely vary too widely from feed to feed to end up providing a consistent enough user experience for it to be used as an active means of signifying changes to an entry. People who think that they can come up with the spec text that will ensure that aggregators provide users a consistent experience 100% of the time are fooling themselves. ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 13:23:11 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA24481 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:23:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2IGT4v023776; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:16:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2IGTC0023775; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:16:29 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2IGSaH023762 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:16:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CP3Cm-00073K-AT; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 18:16:28 +0000 Message-ID: <4187CEFB.3050303@franklinmint.fm> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 13:16:27 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Antone Roundy CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition References: <8A62BE70-2CF9-11D9-8145-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> In-Reply-To: <8A62BE70-2CF9-11D9-8145-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Antone Roundy wrote: > > >> The format has no business classifying spelling mistakes. > > Sure, the spec has no business specifying normative, compulsory > treatment of spelling adjustments with respect to atom:updated. But > providing examples to clarify the intended usage of an element is > definitely in bounds. And I think spelling adjustment examples are not > only in bounds, but very useful. I feel that you are basically making up the intended usage. > > What subscriber on this planet is going to want to reread an entry just > because a trivial spelling mistake like this was fixed? I don't know, but "reread" isn't present in the definition. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 13:30:27 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA25494 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:30:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2INvwu026376; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:23:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2INvQU026375; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:23:57 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2INu1W026320 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:23:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <20041102182354011002qvsje>; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:23:54 +0000 Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:23:53 -0700 Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <4187C3BE.4000208@dehora.net> Message-Id: <59C7B192-2CFC-11D9-8145-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iA2INu1W026370 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tuesday, November 2, 2004, at 10:28 AM, Bill de hÓra wrote: > I think the level of discrimination in intent some people are looking > for with these dates isn't best achieved with the Atom spec. I suggest > leaving this to people's own writing/publishing processes or UI > design. > > My preferred text for this element is this: > > [[[ > The "atom:updated" element is a Date construct indicating the time > when the [feed/entry] was changed. Not all modifications to an entry > require a changed atom:updated value. > ]]] > > ie, Robert hasn't gone far enough. My strong opinion is that with > qualifying fluff, we're imposing on users to decide about things they > needn't be bothered about much if any of the time. > I think atom:updated defined that way would be useless. And I don't think that "the qualifying fluff" as you call it imposes an unwarranted decision making burden. I think its usefulness is worth the trivial effort required to remember to check or uncheck a checkbox, or whatever trivial task would be needed to tell one's publishing software whether or not to change atom:updated. As long as the default is set intelligently (letting the user decide what the default should be would be ideal), the effort required is going to be trivial. Anyway, if changing atom:updated is optional, whether the basis for changing it is loosely defined or totally undefined, the option will have equal need to be presented to users. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 13:48:56 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA27549 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:48:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2IYLj1030803; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:34:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2IYLbG030800; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:34:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chromium.sabren.com (chromium.sabren.com [69.20.61.177]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2IYKG0030765 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:34:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.1.103] (rdu57-27-065.nc.rr.com [66.57.27.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by chromium.sabren.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA2IZbcY006286; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:35:37 -0500 Message-ID: <4187D32A.20007@intertwingly.net> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 13:34:18 -0500 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040803 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dare Obasanjo CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition References: <20041102181212.85342.qmail@web40821.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041102181212.85342.qmail@web40821.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dare Obasanjo wrote: > > People who think that they can come up with the spec > text that will ensure that aggregators provide users a > consistent experience 100% of the time are fooling > themselves. My goal is somewhat more modest: http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg07673.html - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 13:50:33 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA27692 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:50:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2IYkei030938; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:34:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2IYkWx030937; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:34:46 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2IYkWu030911 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:34:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004110218344401100300oce>; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:34:44 +0000 Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:34:43 -0700 Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <4187CEFB.3050303@franklinmint.fm> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, November 2, 2004, at 11:16 AM, Robert Sayre wrote: > Antone Roundy wrote: >>> The format has no business classifying spelling mistakes. >> Sure, the spec has no business specifying normative, compulsory >> treatment of spelling adjustments with respect to atom:updated. But >> providing examples to clarify the intended usage of an element is >> definitely in bounds. And I think spelling adjustment examples are >> not only in bounds, but very useful. > > I feel that you are basically making up the intended usage. Okay, we obviously disagree on what we thought was the intent of the proposal. When I speak of "the intended usage", I'm talking about what I, and I thought most of us, always considered to be the intended usage. This discussion has gone on far too long for me to be able to state with confidence where I think the majority of us stand, but I still find it hard to believe that many people could have read the draft text significantly differently than I did. I may be wrong. >> What subscriber on this planet is going to want to reread an entry >> just because a trivial spelling mistake like this was fixed? > > I don't know, but "reread" isn't present in the definition. Okay, I'll rephrase: What publisher on the planet is going to want to alert their users to the fact that they have fixed a trivial spelling mistake like that? I'm sure some will. I, and I suspect most subscribers, will quickly get annoyed and unsubscribe if they make and flag trivial spelling mistakes often (unless our feed readers allow us to ignore atom:updated on those feeds). From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 13:50:55 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA27719 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:50:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2Id5rC032336; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:39:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2Id5u2032335; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:39:05 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr5.netsolmail.com (omr5.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.142]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2Id4x9032328 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:39:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr5.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA2Id2lF025271; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:39:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BXC63429 (AUTH bob@wyman.us); Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:38:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411021838.BXC63429@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: , Cc: "'Michal Migurski'" , , "'Michael Frumin'" Subject: RE: PaceHeadInEntry Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:36:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: <207DC2CC-2CF4-11D9-A96C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-Index: AcTBAMtoq/gEothyRfyPLzvNark5fgAAvByg Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > Would it be an oversimplification to say that [PaceHeadInEntry] > provides by value what atom:origin provides by reference? -Tim It would be an incorrect simplification. An atom:origin is an atom:id, thus, it is not a "ref" it is an "id" and can't be reliably dereferenced[1]. You can't use atom:origin to discover the contents of the atom:head for the feed within which an atom:entry was published unless you've either seen the feed before or are able to use some service that would map from the id to a ref (URL) or would serve up just the feed head data. (I am unaware of any such service and while we might build such a thing, I don't think the utility of Atom should depend on it.) Also, atom:id is an *optional* element of the feed's atom:head. Thus, an aggregator may not always be able to construct an "atom:origin" element for the feed without inventing a new atom:id (which would be a bad thing.) PaceHeadInEntry is particularly important for aggregate/synthetic feed providers since a high proportion of the entries presented to the reader of an aggregate feed will come from feeds that the reader has never seen before. Even if a service existed to do id-to-ref or head lookups, it would still be undesirable to use atom:origin in this application since clients would end up generating a very large number of lookup calls to the service. bob wyman [1] draft-ietf-atompub-format-03.txt at 3.6.1 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 14:11:55 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA29887 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:11:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2IxBIT039155; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:59:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2IxBYY039153; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:59:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2IxB3m039141 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:59:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CP3s6-0001IV-8t; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 18:59:10 +0000 Message-ID: <4187D8FD.4040403@franklinmint.fm> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 13:59:09 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Antone Roundy CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Antone Roundy wrote: > > > Okay, I'll rephrase: What publisher on the planet is going to want to > alert their users to the fact that they have fixed a trivial spelling > mistake like that? I'm sure some will. I, and I suspect most > subscribers, will quickly get annoyed and unsubscribe if they make and > flag trivial spelling mistakes often (unless our feed readers allow us > to ignore atom:updated on those feeds). > I don't see how the Pace requires publishers to "alert their users" to a trivial update. Please explain. Personally, I would prefer the text Bill proposed. I offered the Pace as somewhat of a compromise. The "atom:updated" element is a Date construct indicating the most recent instant in time when the [feed/entry] was modified in a way the producer considers significant. Ergo, not all modifications necessarily result in a changed atom:updated value. What exactly is missing from this definition? If atom:updated changes, the consumer knows that a "significant" update has taken place, and are free to act on it as they see fit. Note that this definition also implies that changes which take place without a change to atom:updated are "insignificant", whatever that means... I don't see how we can get more specific without dictating an editorial policy, which is totally inappropriate. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 14:31:25 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA01650 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:31:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2JEbw9043413; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:14:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2JEbDL043412; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:14:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.201]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2JEaSs043406 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:14:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 80so132451rnl for ; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 11:14:40 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=L3fc4M/PKPAXHQjipR4Gk60MEoxwYjNAu6RMQi3or7Q0u025VQ90M9sBnlC7SOChRL2gtba0v/hjH8X3/WrYizJqBqc3VSL27QikcbogNb6SNespRyf/CywKC+i19r0WOI9zvs1fJGMN8+U4418YFO8NDztE/6E6CNn6Mm1It7o= Received: by 10.38.10.4 with SMTP id 4mr52796rnj; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 11:14:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:14:40 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd041102111427c24f21@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 20:14:40 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <4187CEFB.3050303@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:34:43 -0700, Antone Roundy wrote: > Okay, I'll rephrase: What publisher on the planet is going to want to > alert their users to the fact that they have fixed a trivial spelling > mistake like that? I'm sure some will. I, and I suspect most > subscribers, will quickly get annoyed and unsubscribe if they make and > flag trivial spelling mistakes often (unless our feed readers allow us > to ignore atom:updated on those feeds). Ok. But some people *do* intend to use atom:updated for things like spelling changes - Robert for a start. But if I was using a CMS for project management I'd probably want to use atom:updated to bring new releases of existing projects to people's attention. Like you mentioned before, this range would only work satisfactorily if the end user sets per-feed preferences. I get the impression that the assumption is being made that by reducing the number of elements, the amount of work needed for producers and consumers will be reduced. But in cases like this the more information the publisher can supply (discriminating between trivial and significant changes), the less work is needed at the client. The dates may still be inaccurate and inconsistent across feeds, but for most default behaviour should be ok, the necessary end-user intervention will be reduced. Better for the end user. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 16:47:57 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA19277 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 16:47:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2LYWAZ096116; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:34:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2LYW5g096115; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:34:32 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40822.mail.yahoo.com (web40822.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.92.69]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA2LYWQe096060 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:34:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20041102213431.49991.qmail@web40822.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [131.107.71.227] by web40822.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 13:34:31 PST Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:34:31 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition To: Danny Ayers , Antone Roundy Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd041102111427c24f21@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --- Danny Ayers wrote: > > > I get the impression that the assumption is being > made that by > reducing the number of elements, the amount of work > needed for > producers and consumers will be reduced. But in > cases like this the > more information the publisher can supply > (discriminating between > trivial and significant changes), the less work is > needed at the > client. The dates may still be inaccurate and > inconsistent across > feeds, but for most default behaviour should be ok, > the necessary > end-user intervention will be reduced. Better for > the end user. You assume wrong. Go read http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11086.html again. ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 18:08:58 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA27843 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:08:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2MvfnO024738; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:57:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2MvfnS024737; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:57:41 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2MvfLL024722 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:57:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <20041102225740016000v1mde>; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 22:57:40 +0000 Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:57:33 -0700 Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <4187D8FD.4040403@franklinmint.fm> Message-Id: <95190108-2D22-11D9-8145-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, November 2, 2004, at 11:59 AM, Robert Sayre wrote: > Antone Roundy wrote: >> Okay, I'll rephrase: What publisher on the planet is going to want to >> alert their users to the fact that they have fixed a trivial spelling >> mistake like that? I'm sure some will. I, and I suspect most >> subscribers, will quickly get annoyed and unsubscribe if they make >> and flag trivial spelling mistakes often (unless our feed readers >> allow us to ignore atom:updated on those feeds). > > I don't see how the Pace requires publishers to "alert their users" to > a trivial update. Please explain. Sheesh. I never said that it did. I was responding to your assertion that: > The format has no business classifying spelling mistakes. with examples of spelling fixes that I think clearly would and would not warrant altering atom:modified (with or without this Pace), and asserting that it is within the spec's scope to include such examples. Of course, if the decision of whether or not to alter atom:modified is up to the publisher, as I'd like it to be, some publishers will chose to alter it for trivial spelling fixes. And just like they would if they wrote meaningless titles, those who do will degrade the quality of their feeds. > Personally, I would prefer the text Bill proposed. I offered the Pace > as somewhat of a compromise. > > The "atom:updated" element is a Date construct indicating the most > recent instant in time when the [feed/entry] was modified in a way > the producer considers significant. Ergo, not all modifications > necessarily result in a changed atom:updated value. > > What exactly is missing from this definition? The publisher's intent--to draw attention to the modification. > If atom:updated changes, the consumer knows that a "significant" > update has taken place, and are free to act on it as they see fit. Yeah, and that information would be only marginally useful as a basis for deciding how I as a consumer saw fit to act on it, because I have no idea whatsoever what the publisher meant by "significant". I don't know whether I as the consumer would want to revisit the article or not, because the publisher would not be able to use this element to signal to me whether they thought the change warranted rereading or not. As I mentioned in a prior message, the "significant" change could be the reordering of two paragraphs--certainly a "significant" change by some measure--but perhaps not one that alters the meaning of the entry in a way that warrants drawing attention to the change. > I don't see how we can get more specific without dictating an > editorial policy, which is totally inappropriate. If the current draft text were altered by removing the sentence mentioning spelling fixes and putting in examples along the lines I mention earlier ("I eat people" vs "I seat people", "pumkin" vs "pumpkin", along with examples showing larger changes that do and don't affect the meaning of the entry), and if the examples were prefaced with a remark about how they illustrate generally how atom:updated is to be used, but (as mentioned in the normative text) that the final decision is up to the publisher, do you think that would dictate editorial policy? If so, would you explain how. Even without taking extra care to indicate that the examples are illustrative guidelines and not normative, I don't see it doing that. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 18:44:02 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA01717 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:44:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2NRV0c035597; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:27:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2NRVvq035596; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:27:31 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2NRU11035588 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:27:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CP83n-0008Ou-4v; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 23:27:31 +0000 Message-ID: <418817E2.4060101@franklinmint.fm> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 18:27:30 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Antone Roundy CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition References: <95190108-2D22-11D9-8145-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> In-Reply-To: <95190108-2D22-11D9-8145-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Antone Roundy wrote: > > On Tuesday, November 2, 2004, at 11:59 AM, Robert Sayre wrote: > >> >> The "atom:updated" element is a Date construct indicating the most >> recent instant in time when the [feed/entry] was modified in a way >> the producer considers significant. Ergo, not all modifications >> necessarily result in a changed atom:updated value. >> >> What exactly is missing from this definition? > > The publisher's intent--to draw attention to the modification. > >> If atom:updated changes, the consumer knows that a "significant" >> update has taken place, and are free to act on it as they see fit. > > Yeah, and that information would be only marginally useful as a basis > for deciding how I as a consumer saw fit to act on it, because I have no > idea whatsoever what the publisher meant by "significant". Nope. Please explain how your proposal defines a uniform definition of "significant" for all users of the Atom format. > I don't know > whether I as the consumer would want to revisit the article or not, > because the publisher would not be able to use this element to signal to > me whether they thought the change warranted rereading or not. As I > mentioned in a prior message, the "significant" change could be the > reordering of two paragraphs--certainly a "significant" change by some > measure--but perhaps not one that alters the meaning of the entry in a > way that warrants drawing attention to the change. > Still don't get it. Whether the reordering of a paragraph is important is a matter of editorial policy. Some editorial policies dictate that every change, regardless of their effect on "meaning", are significant. Your answer shows yet another meaning has been mapped onto atom:updated: that it implies the entry must be reread, which implies that everyone is sitting around reading emailish things. What does it mean for doing actual syndication? >> I don't see how we can get more specific without dictating an >> editorial policy, which is totally inappropriate. > > If the current draft text were altered by removing the sentence > mentioning spelling fixes and putting in examples along the lines I > mention earlier ("I eat people" vs "I seat people", "pumkin" vs > "pumpkin", along with examples showing larger changes that do and don't > affect the meaning of the entry), and if the examples were prefaced with > a remark about how they illustrate generally how atom:updated is to be > used, but (as mentioned in the normative text) that the final decision > is up to the publisher, do you think that would dictate editorial > policy? If so, would you explain how. Even without taking extra care > to indicate that the examples are illustrative guidelines and not > normative, I don't see it doing that. > I think you are describing an implementor's guide, where such text would be perfectly at home. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 18:50:29 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA02113 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:50:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2NgCYh041551; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:42:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2NgChQ041539; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:42:12 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail13.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail13.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.29]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA2NgBt7041500 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:42:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 43346 messnum 5125310 invoked from network[83.70.253.75/83-70-253-75.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 2 Nov 2004 23:42:10 -0000 Received: from 83-70-253-75.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?192.168.123.143?) (83.70.253.75) by mail13.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 43346) with SMTP; 2 Nov 2004 23:42:10 -0000 Message-ID: <41881B4C.1040103@dehora.net> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 23:42:04 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8a1) Gecko/20040520 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition References: <4187CEFB.3050303@franklinmint.fm> <1f2ed5cd041102111427c24f21@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd041102111427c24f21@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Danny Ayers wrote: > I get the impression that the assumption is being made that by > reducing the number of elements, the amount of work needed for > producers and consumers will be reduced. But in cases like this the > more information the publisher can supply (discriminating between > trivial and significant changes), the less work is needed at the > client. If there is an impasse, I believe it resides in the bracketed text above. I claim we can't usefully specify a distinction between trivial and significant - irrespective of whether we believe such a distinction exists or not. I'm opposed to specifying that anyone coming into contact with Aom will have to think about change in terms of the format, i.e. as a matter of specification - they have enough to do as it is. Imagine for a moment a format that had "atom:trivial-change" and "atom:significant-change" elements. Why trouble people with this? cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 18:52:46 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA02242 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:52:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA2NgpvR041755; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:42:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA2Ngp6n041754; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:42:51 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail06.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail06.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.22]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA2Ngoe1041713 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:42:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 85056 messnum 2851728 invoked from network[83.70.253.75/83-70-253-75.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 2 Nov 2004 23:42:49 -0000 Received: from 83-70-253-75.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?192.168.123.143?) (83.70.253.75) by mail06.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 85056) with SMTP; 2 Nov 2004 23:42:49 -0000 Message-ID: <41881B74.2020408@dehora.net> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 23:42:44 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8a1) Gecko/20040520 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition References: <59C7B192-2CFC-11D9-8145-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> In-Reply-To: <59C7B192-2CFC-11D9-8145-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Antone Roundy wrote: > > On Tuesday, November 2, 2004, at 10:28 AM, Bill de hÓra wrote: >> [[[ >> The "atom:updated" element is a Date construct indicating the time >> when the [feed/entry] was changed. Not all modifications to an entry >> require a changed atom:updated value. >> ]]] > I think atom:updated defined that way would be useless. And I don't > think that "the qualifying fluff" as you call it imposes an unwarranted > decision making burden. I think its usefulness is worth the trivial > effort required to remember to check or uncheck a checkbox, or whatever > trivial task would be needed to tell one's publishing software whether > or not to change atom:updated. Apart from your first two claims, the rest of what you say is consistent with the pared down text I posted. I still don't see anything we need to say beyond that. > As long as the default is set > intelligently (letting the user decide what the default should be would > be ideal), the effort required is going to be trivial. Anyway, if > changing atom:updated is optional, whether the basis for changing it is > loosely defined or totally undefined, the option will have equal need to > be presented to users. What you've said above is much the same line of thought that leads me to the conclusion we need say nothing about intent or granularity of changes. [Nevermind that I doubt there is anything generally useful we can or should say here in terms of spec constraints.] cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 19:36:56 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA07061 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:36:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA30RdHm062616; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 16:27:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA30RdGn062614; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 16:27:39 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA30RcYu062603 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 16:27:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (203.30.247.2) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:27:46 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:27:41 +1100 Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <95190108-2D22-11D9-8145-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/11/04 9:57 AM, "Antone Roundy" wrote: > Sheesh. I never said that it did. I was responding to your assertion > that: >> The format has no business classifying spelling mistakes. > with examples of spelling fixes that I think clearly would and would > not warrant altering atom:modified (with or without this Pace), and > asserting that it is within the spec's scope to include such examples. > Of course, if the decision of whether or not to alter atom:modified is > up to the publisher, as I'd like it to be, some publishers will chose > to alter it for trivial spelling fixes. And just like they would if > they wrote meaningless titles, those who do will degrade the quality of > their feeds. you meant atom:updated, right? e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 19:37:09 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA07090 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:37:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA30W4qF064986; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 16:32:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA30W4bs064984; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 16:32:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA30W2MV064950 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 16:32:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (203.30.247.2) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:32:11 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:32:06 +1100 Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <41881B4C.1040103@dehora.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iA30W4MV064968 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/11/04 10:42 AM, "Bill de hÓra" wrote: > I claim we can't usefully specify a distinction between > trivial and significant but we can provide guidance. just because the middle-ground is a fuzzy grey line doesn't mean that there are not two ends to the spectrum. guidance, that's what's needed, that's all. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 20:27:04 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA11881 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 20:27:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA31I8Eg086723; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 17:18:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA31I89j086722; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 17:18:08 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA31I8RU086650 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 17:18:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <20041103011805016000ssqge>; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 01:18:05 +0000 Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:18:04 -0700 Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <3648E94A-2D36-11D9-8145-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, November 2, 2004, at 05:27 PM, Eric Scheid wrote: >>> The format has no business classifying spelling mistakes. >> with examples of spelling fixes that I think clearly would and would >> not warrant altering atom:modified (with or without this Pace), and >> asserting that it is within the spec's scope to include such examples. >> Of course, if the decision of whether or not to alter atom:modified is >> up to the publisher, as I'd like it to be, some publishers will chose >> to alter it for trivial spelling fixes. And just like they would if >> they wrote meaningless titles, those who do will degrade the quality >> of >> their feeds. > > you meant atom:updated, right? > Oops. Yes, I did. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 20:56:58 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA14119 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 20:56:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA31l6qD000365; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 17:47:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA31l6wr000364; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 17:47:06 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA31l50X000302 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 17:47:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from TimHare@comcast.net) Received: from thare.comcast.net (pcp05187532pcs.micske01.fl.comcast.net[68.46.236.23]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <200411030147050160014i83e> (Authid: TimHare); Wed, 3 Nov 2004 01:47:05 +0000 Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.0.20041102203528.028089b0@mail.comcast.net> X-Sender: TimHare@mail.comcast.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 20:37:28 -0500 To: atom-syntax@imc.org From: TimHare@comcast.net Subject: Semi-off-topic question? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Can someone tell me where to look to find out why everything has "Pace" appended to the front of it (PaceDateModified, PaceUpdatedDefinition, etcetera)? As a newcomer to the list, I haven't been able to relate the word to Atom (yet). Tim Hare Interested Bystander, Non-Inc. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 2 21:10:11 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA14974 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 21:10:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA31wGHp003661; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 17:58:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA31wFP6003660; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 17:58:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA31wEQX003598 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 17:58:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from TimHare@comcast.net) Received: from thare.comcast.net (pcp05187532pcs.micske01.fl.comcast.net[68.46.236.23]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <200411030158150110030lgee> (Authid: TimHare); Wed, 3 Nov 2004 01:58:15 +0000 Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.0.20041102204515.027e1c10@mail.comcast.net> X-Sender: TimHare@mail.comcast.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 20:48:53 -0500 To: atom-syntax@imc.org From: TimHare@comcast.net Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition In-Reply-To: <20041102181212.85342.qmail@web40821.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4187C3BE.4000208@dehora.net> <20041102181212.85342.qmail@web40821.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iA31wFQX003655 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As a consumer of information, and not a developer of Atom code, I have to agree wth several posts: the publisher of the information determines if atom:updated should have a new value, whether that publisher is human or machine. The consumer of the feeds will decide what to do with atom:updated - some may cache everything and replace things based on the info being updated according to the publisher, others may always present things which come in the feed. People will choose client software based on behaviors they like. At 01:12 PM 11/2/04, Dare Obasanjo wrote: >--- Bill de hÓra wrote: > > > > I think the level of discrimination in intent some > > people are > > looking for with these dates isn't best achieved > > with the Atom spec. > > I suggest leaving this to people's own > > writing/publishing processes > > or UI design. > >+1 > >Folks are trying to mandate UI behavior in aggregators >via spec text which will most likely be ignored by >aggregator authors anyway. > >atom:modified is likely to be too noisy for >aggregators to actually use it as an active means of >signifiying changes to an entry. It may make sense as >a passive means of indicating changes. > >The usage of atom:updated will likely vary too widely >from feed to feed to end up providing a consistent >enough user experience for it to be used as an active >means of signifying changes to an entry. > >People who think that they can come up with the spec >text that will ensure that aggregators provide users a >consistent experience 100% of the time are fooling >themselves. > >===== >THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 >I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too >intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some >subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. >www.yahoo.com > Tim Hare Interested Bystander, Non-Inc. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 05:20:18 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA18471 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 05:20:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA39ttif095857; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 01:55:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA39ttOh095856; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 01:55:55 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.201]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA39ttLo095846 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 01:55:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so23741rns for ; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 01:55:55 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=aokg0+iZQ4gNO8JtvWGIZ56zIKWHBZtXV66DY6/svn5q/zP7rw/JBVDXnv0tWpN95ZGASz+7f/37V3nEiL+/A+PhLhCghxcIdfMEILFsofdXIdMD8lbrFp+onq9WpYku4AyQeAdlvWhIMZl0jkSs82msiaarFkE7eKKlXUKQ8Lw= Received: by 10.38.10.23 with SMTP id 23mr126547rnj; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 01:55:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 01:55:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd041103015550389ffd@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 10:55:55 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: "timhare@comcast.net" Subject: Re: Semi-off-topic question? Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20041102203528.028089b0@mail.comcast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <6.1.1.1.0.20041102203528.028089b0@mail.comcast.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 20:37:28 -0500, timhare@comcast.net wrote: > > Can someone tell me where to look to find out why everything has "Pace" > appended to the front of it (PaceDateModified, PaceUpdatedDefinition, > etcetera)? As a newcomer to the list, I haven't been able to relate the > word to Atom (yet). It's just a convention for proposals, initiated by Sam. He might care to comment further, but I think I can safely say they (should) have two significant characteristics: each covers a single issue (often corresponding to a single XML element) ; each includes camera-ready text for inclusion in the specs. I forget Sam's original explanation for the word (collective unconscious?) but I think a suitable /a posteriori/ derivation would be from the Latin "pace tua" - with your consent. Following focussed discussion on list initiated by the chair (see [1]), the proposals will eventually either "vade in pace" - go in peace, or "requiescat in pace" - RIP. Cheers, Danny. [1] http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/AtomPubIssuesList -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 05:20:20 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA18489 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 05:20:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3A6xSk004658; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 02:06:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA3A6x8K004657; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 02:06:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3A6wPZ004646 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 02:06:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so23966rns for ; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 02:06:59 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=IkOrCSSOtptLvLT5bNsBYtf9jOM8dZHVHErq2/HsLPsVw3bhZSR4Q22AthzUISnQmEXdcAcBMhN6J48Qg733cY7n5WMMWqdqghE69yzpmzjNUf3JItkmlh9+AgFJ0JBopSS3H96iU4wEWidVmIZEBCsFcZuRBxGQiIZ9TWXKLTQ= Received: by 10.38.10.72 with SMTP id 72mr123359rnj; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 02:06:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 02:06:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0411030206511b60f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:06:59 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <41881B4C.1040103@dehora.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <4187CEFB.3050303@franklinmint.fm> <1f2ed5cd041102111427c24f21@mail.gmail.com> <41881B4C.1040103@dehora.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iA3A6xPZ004650 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 23:42:04 +0000, Bill de hÓra wrote: Imagine > for a moment a format that had "atom:trivial-change" and > "atom:significant-change" elements. I'd consider that something of a side effect of a more easily framed division: atom:updated - (human) publisher flagged change atom:modified - publishing software flagged change (bitflips) > Why trouble people with this? I think the primary reason would be so that their applications could tell which was 'physically' the most recent version (to incorporate spelling corrections in their archives) and which was 'editorially' the most recent (to bring it to the end user's attention). Specific use cases - Choosing latest version of an individual entry from multiple sources: http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg10894.html Single feed for project documentation: http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg10931.html Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 07:23:19 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA01516 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 07:23:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3CCM6e095392; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 04:12:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA3CCMrv095391; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 04:12:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40822.mail.yahoo.com (web40822.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.92.69]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA3CCMQI095329 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 04:12:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20041103121218.36540.qmail@web40822.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.18.132.123] by web40822.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 04:12:18 PST Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 04:12:18 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition To: Sam Ruby Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <4187D32A.20007@intertwingly.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --- Sam Ruby wrote: > > > > People who think that they can come up with the > spec > > text that will ensure that aggregators provide > users a > > consistent experience 100% of the time are fooling > > themselves. > > My goal is somewhat more modest: > > http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg07673.html I assume your goal is to enable folks like Tim Bray to make significant updates to a blog post and then somehow have that indicated to readers. This doesn't change my opinion about how useful atom:updated or atom:modified will be in practice. I can understand that the cost/benefit for adding one of them may be satisfactory but definitely don't think it is for adding both. Also has any blog vendor or author of a blog posting tool actually indicated they think adding a 'indicate this post has had significant changes in the Atom feed' button to the UI for editing post is something they are likely to do? From my perspective as someone who now works on a blog service (http://spaces.msn.com for those that don't read my blog) I doubt that we'd want to put something like that in our UI. ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 08:03:52 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA05058 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:03:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3CtuDr022574; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 04:55:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA3CtuFo022573; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 04:55:56 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3CttR8022559 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 04:55:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so28024rns for ; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 04:55:54 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=XEzFuI3QP/+nwvrUlSs5YSnWcesMVcEQd4643mMtgT3T3A+IJUZ1j9MkZRBjoZTuFIZ6js/4b+pwK+dde/zVG6idhQnFNsC+jfVkJc2zGxbqL8qW2Lh/blR/2+4zgj68thxflssJqZCd6T5StaqM9BHws4bpRWszdVFHp1I5+28= Received: by 10.38.10.20 with SMTP id 20mr174606rnj; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 04:55:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 04:55:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04110304553644acb0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:55:53 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition Cc: Sam Ruby , atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <20041103121218.36540.qmail@web40822.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <4187D32A.20007@intertwingly.net> <20041103121218.36540.qmail@web40822.mail.yahoo.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 04:12:18 -0800 (PST), Dare Obasanjo wrote: > Also has any blog vendor or author of a blog posting > tool actually indicated they think adding a 'indicate > this post has had significant changes in the Atom > feed' button to the UI for editing post is something > they are likely to do? From my perspective as someone > who now works on a blog service (http://spaces.msn.com > for those that don't read my blog) I doubt that we'd > want to put something like that in our UI. From my current perspective of writing tools to demonstrate syndication technologies, I would include such an option were it available. The way I would expect it to work would be that the editing tool would include a checkbox akin to that found on Wikis on "This is a minor edit [ ]". Given atom:modified and atom:updated I would expect the default for authoring software to be checked (after the initial post). Given atom:updated alone I'm not sure what would be a reasonable default. If the benefit of either isn't clear, we might as well just use HTML via a polling client. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 08:23:05 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA07122 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:23:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3DEoNq031464; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 05:14:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA3DEoOD031463; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 05:14:50 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail05.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail05.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.21]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA3DEnrj031377 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 05:14:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 31995 messnum 379192 invoked from network[62.77.172.85/62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net]); 3 Nov 2004 13:14:38 -0000 Received: from 62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net (HELO ?200.200.200.35?) (62.77.172.85) by mail05.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 31995) with SMTP; 3 Nov 2004 13:14:38 -0000 Message-ID: <4188D9B9.80805@dehora.net> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 13:14:33 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8a1) Gecko/20040520 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition References: <4187D32A.20007@intertwingly.net> <20041103121218.36540.qmail@web40822.mail.yahoo.com> <1f2ed5cd04110304553644acb0@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd04110304553644acb0@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Danny Ayers wrote: > The way I would expect it to work would be that the editing tool would > include a checkbox akin to that found on Wikis on "This is a minor > edit [ ]". > > Given atom:modified and atom:updated I would expect the default for > authoring software to be checked (after the initial post). > > Given atom:updated alone I'm not sure what would be a reasonable default. The same as if you had both. > If the benefit of either isn't clear, we might as well just use HTML > via a polling client. Not the conclusion I would come to ;) cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 08:24:29 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA07295 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:24:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3DHj9Q033097; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 05:17:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA3DHjnE033096; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 05:17:45 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3DHiGJ033082 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 05:17:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so28578rns for ; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 05:17:42 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=mlfjrEBbDsWUSOPsaDMAzG6LgCQT08zPa5aEduP9VAd/c/qlmX9DNv9qpCDjwjrzdssIaGQ7rAIh2B6qzf/idz9jiB3WdZ0VZ/bKAZmCAIWYOcrQYnbw+H1EN2mT9FyUxmsmq3Pg3MRkovj2P7lprce6NCuarWEQRV8u1Xy+Js8= Received: by 10.38.10.20 with SMTP id 20mr182286rnj; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 05:17:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 05:17:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04110305173d7dbf7e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:17:42 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition Cc: Sam Ruby , atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd04110304553644acb0@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <4187D32A.20007@intertwingly.net> <20041103121218.36540.qmail@web40822.mail.yahoo.com> <1f2ed5cd04110304553644acb0@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PS. Both the blogging tools I have on hand allow the modification of the date after initial publication - WordPress has: "Edit timestamp?" TypePad has: "Publish on..." I'd be surprised to find any moderately sophisticated content management system that lacked such a facility. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 09:41:50 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA13890 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 09:41:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3ENTA6059198; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 06:23:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA3ENT67059197; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 06:23:29 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr5.netsolmail.com (omr5.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.142]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3ENSp4059115 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 06:23:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr5.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA3ENNlF000580; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 09:23:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BXF40632 (AUTH bob@wyman.us); Wed, 3 Nov 2004 09:23:22 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411031423.BXF40632@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Dare Obasanjo'" , "'Sam Ruby'" Cc: Subject: RE: PaceUpdatedDefinition Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 09:23:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: <20041103121218.36540.qmail@web40822.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-Index: AcTBoQiEvSKwvXB0QO2UF56pjC3eOgADLgqQ Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dare Obasanjo wrote: > From my perspective as someone who now works on a blog service > (http://spaces.msn.com for those that don't read my blog) I doubt > that we'd want to put something like ['indicate this post has > had significant changes in the Atom feed'] in our UI. This would seem to imply that if spaces.msn.com supports atom:updated, it would do so as though atom:updated were defined as atom:modified is. In other words, *any* change to an item, no matter how small, would result in a new atom:updated value. Is this correct? I continue to be concerned that atom:updated seems to be an overloading that will inevitably result in confusion. There are two bits of information in any single instance of an atom:updated value. One is the explicitly stated date of the update and the other is some kind of implicit subjective and inconsistent inference hint concerning the importance of the update. Since entry generators will not be using consistent rules for determining "importance" and some, like spaces.msn.com won't even try to have such rules, it is very hard to understand how a reader UI could do anything useful with the "importance" component of atom:updated. I know that I've said this before, but I think it would make much more sense to remove the overloading by having the date of modification specified by atom:modified and then a second optional mechanism for explicitly stating the "importance" of the update. "Importance" could be indicated by either an element or an attribute. i.e. one of: ...high Or ... If "importance" is passed as explicit data, rather than implicitly, then reader UIs can be written to handle those cases (rare or common, we can't know yet) in which entries provide this value. There is, of course, the issue of defining a common set of "importance" values. Defining anything other than "low" or "high" would be, I think, an excellent task for an extension effort. In any case, it is likely that the set of used values would converge fairly rapidly (except for edge cases) once this feature is let loose in the wild. bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 10:06:26 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA16318 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 10:06:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3EoLJp069482; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 06:50:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA3EoLWp069481; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 06:50:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail11.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail11.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.27]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA3EoKXm069422 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 06:50:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 46409 messnum 15273094 invoked from network[62.77.172.85/62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net]); 3 Nov 2004 14:50:17 -0000 Received: from 62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net (HELO ?200.200.200.35?) (62.77.172.85) by mail11.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 46409) with SMTP; 3 Nov 2004 14:50:17 -0000 Message-ID: <4188F023.5010102@dehora.net> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:50:11 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8a1) Gecko/20040520 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition References: <200411031423.BXF40632@ms8.netsolmail.com> In-Reply-To: <200411031423.BXF40632@ms8.netsolmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Wyman wrote: > I know that I've said this before, but I think it would make much > more sense to remove the overloading by having the date of modification > specified by atom:modified and then a second optional mechanism for > explicitly stating the "importance" of the update. "Importance" could be > indicated by either an element or an attribute. i.e. one of: > > ...high > Or > ... I can see the point of doing this. However I don't think it's reasonable to proceed with a new set of control code attribute values until we establish an extension mechanism for the ones we already have. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 10:08:09 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA16586 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 10:08:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3ExE7q072357; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 06:59:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA3ExEI6072356; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 06:59:14 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3ExDtD072339 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 06:59:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPMbA-0002iP-3s; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:58:56 +0000 Message-ID: <4188F22B.2060306@franklinmint.fm> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 09:58:51 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bob@wyman.us CC: "'Dare Obasanjo'" , "'Sam Ruby'" , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition References: <200411031423.BXF40632@ms8.netsolmail.com> In-Reply-To: <200411031423.BXF40632@ms8.netsolmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Wyman wrote: > determining "importance" and some, like spaces.msn.com won't even try to > have such rules, it is very hard to understand how a reader UI could do > anything useful with the "importance" component of atom:updated. Prior art in syndication suggests that this functionality is usually accomplished through structural changes to the entry or through new URIs, not timestamps. Does anyone have an example of a syndication format that indicates "significant updates" through a timestamp alone? Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 10:16:09 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA17792 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 10:16:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3F4xeO074045; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 07:04:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA3F4xD4074044; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 07:04:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3F4x9e074036 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 07:04:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPMgv-0002xo-CJ; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 15:04:53 +0000 Message-ID: <4188F392.3050008@franklinmint.fm> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 10:04:50 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition References: <200411031423.BXF40632@ms8.netsolmail.com> <4188F023.5010102@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: <4188F023.5010102@dehora.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill de hÓra wrote: > > Bob Wyman wrote: >> ... > > I can see the point of doing this. Me too. ... Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 15:32:51 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA17265 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:32:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3KD21j001229; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:13:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA3KD1lc001223; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:13:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from 216-239-45-4.google.com (216-239-45-4.google.com [216.239.45.4]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3KD0IC001157 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:13:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stevej@google.com) Received: from [172.24.68.136] (chopper.corp.google.com [172.24.68.136]) (authenticated bits=0) by nappa.corp.google.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA3KCpob008442 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:12:51 -0800 In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd04110305173d7dbf7e@mail.gmail.com> References: <4187D32A.20007@intertwingly.net> <20041103121218.36540.qmail@web40822.mail.yahoo.com> <1f2ed5cd04110304553644acb0@mail.gmail.com> <1f2ed5cd04110305173d7dbf7e@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Dare Obasanjo , Sam Ruby , atom-syntax@imc.org From: steve jenson Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:12:51 -0800 To: Danny Ayers X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Nov 3, 2004, at 5:17 AM, Danny Ayers wrote: > > PS. Both the blogging tools I have on hand allow the modification of > the date after initial publication - > > WordPress has: > "Edit timestamp?" > > TypePad has: > "Publish on..." > > I'd be surprised to find any moderately sophisticated content > management system that lacked such a facility. I don't think this is the same as what Dare was asking. If I understand those tools correctly, this will change atom:issued? Dare wants to know of a tool that allows you to specifically change atom:updated or atom:modified. I don't know of a tool that lets you change those elements except as a side effect. -steve From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 16:36:07 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA21483 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:36:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3LO3lt030528; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:24:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA3LO3Iq030527; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:24:03 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [10.20.30.249] (adsl-66-125-125-65.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [66.125.125.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3LO1Ie030520 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:24:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:23:06 -0800 To: Atom WG From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Consensus probe on PaceUpdatedDefinition Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Greetiings again. As usual, it's pretty hard to gauge consensus on this one. It seems that people change their views during the day, sometimes based on a passing "how about if I took out these three words", sometimes just because. Other folks seem pretty solid. The draft says: ----- The "atom:updated" element is a Date construct indicating the most recent instant in time when a change to the entry was made that the publisher wishes to bring to the attention of subscribers. For example, such changes might not include minor adjustments like spelling and grammatical corrections. ----- The exact wording from the Pace we're talking about is: ----- The "atom:updated" element is a Date construct indicating the most recent instant in time when the [feed/entry] was modified in a way the producer considers significant. Ergo, not all modifications necessarily result in a changed atom:updated value. ----- So, please reply on this thread, saying: A) I'm fine/OK with the exact new wording in the Pace. B) The new wording from the Pace, and the exact old wording from the draft, are both really unacceptable, but the following would be fine/OK with me: [[ fill in here ]] C) The exact old wording in the draft is the best it can be; please don't change it at all. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 16:45:59 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA22766 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:45:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3LdFfR037153; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:39:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA3LdFOk037152; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:39:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from cat-proof.de (cat.cat-proof.de [213.239.198.176]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3LdE0o037087 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:39:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sc@itst.net) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (p50817273.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.129.114.115]) by cat-proof.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F77F340B665 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 22:36:19 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <41895005.8090405@itst.net> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 22:39:17 +0100 From: Sascha Carlin User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom WG Subject: Re: Consensus probe on PaceUpdatedDefinition References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A) -- Sascha Carlin website: http://www.itst.org/ blog: http://www.itst.org/web/ mailto: sc@itst.net icq: 99327847 skype: saschacarlin From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 16:46:32 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA22900 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:46:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3LXjiK034727; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:33:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA3LXjMr034726; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:33:45 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3LXi2W034698; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:33:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPSlF-0004gE-1w; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 21:33:45 +0000 Message-ID: <41894EBA.2040701@franklinmint.fm> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 16:33:46 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Hoffman / IMC CC: Atom WG Subject: Re: Consensus probe on PaceUpdatedDefinition References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm fine/OK with the exact new wording in the Pace. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 16:56:42 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA23853 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:56:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3Ln3JP040997; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:49:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA3Ln3rV040996; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:49:03 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mcom.com (c3po.aoltw.net [64.236.137.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3Ln2wR040928; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:49:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jpanzer@aol.net) Received: from judge.mcom.com (judge.nscp.aoltw.net [10.169.8.47]) by mcom.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id iA3Lmvw05676; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:48:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.5] ([10.169.192.26]) by judge.mcom.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id I6MHXL03.G0J; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:48:57 -0800 Message-ID: <41895247.7080104@aol.net> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 13:48:55 -0800 From: jpanzer@aol.net (John Panzer) User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Hoffman / IMC CC: Atom WG Subject: Re: Consensus probe on PaceUpdatedDefinition References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: > > Greetiings again. As usual, it's pretty hard to gauge consensus on > this one. It seems that people change their views during the day, > sometimes based on a passing "how about if I took out these three > words", sometimes just because. Other folks seem pretty solid. > > The draft says: > > ----- > The "atom:updated" element is a Date construct indicating the most > recent instant in time when a change to the entry was made that the > publisher wishes to bring to the attention of subscribers. For > example, such changes might not include minor adjustments like > spelling and grammatical corrections. > ----- > > The exact wording from the Pace we're talking about is: > > ----- > The "atom:updated" element is a Date construct indicating the most > recent instant in time when the [feed/entry] was modified in a way > the producer considers significant. Ergo, not all modifications > necessarily result in a changed atom:updated value. > ----- > > So, please reply on this thread, saying: > > A) I'm fine/OK with the exact new wording in the Pace. +1. (+0 on the draft wording.) From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 17:17:52 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA25546 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:17:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3MAERx049659; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:10:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA3MAExN049658; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:10:14 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.200]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3MAD56049643 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:10:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so6495rns for ; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:10:18 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=T93nB4l2dvtH/0qUHKOraWj7eHaRaT6I+u6QMeWabfCVmkrtU9DCzNLk71ftpFnwjoa8gxNxgO3hUNOTV+0NY6l278U7KNHQzlNfIcNL7NzRJMsa8Az7pMc1JeXNMUS+Omcb/JyC5/zFRo/DcsSTuU2VJRbkRL0z9Dyfu3DKqDs= Received: by 10.38.8.34 with SMTP id 34mr15110rnh; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:10:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:10:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd041103141017560012@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 23:10:18 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: Consensus probe on PaceUpdatedDefinition Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A) I'm fine/OK with the exact new wording in the Pace. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 17:35:39 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA27186 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:35:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3MTvvU056167; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:29:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA3MTvBh056166; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:29:57 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3MTuED056087; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:29:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA3MIBfh023803; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 22:18:16 GMT In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-18-954007730; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <3FC30D2B-2DE6-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Cc: Atom WG From: Graham Subject: Re: Consensus probe on PaceUpdatedDefinition Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 22:18:11 +0000 To: Paul Hoffman / IMC X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-18-954007730 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Both are equally mediocre. A is slightly clearer. Graham --Apple-Mail-18-954007730 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMTAzMjIxODEyWjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQU2zHdqwpoW7K8/HmnLcOdRnQh yGwweAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEAL65ZKqRkBD6ufODp1Y5+tzry zX8Owmw3XnVZReSXB8HfUXNRl5NAulVCUAbwQ1+xBeYbS6Su+uHEa9iwLr1//JJGSLshOIjSmIKb OZyL2qGTeA9m/W0fb829cg3rbRw7z3S+fwoNCMo78TmvgjWaRObe49f/Ajj1P8cOX/0ymYHBPCUH j5IPoju3KsX2us4yHg0F80Q20ff95s89Ue4JUAtXg14is6LlRYYWmsPYrl3rDWiL0yoPU14Y81T+ mQhEvA7Kv/52WpPJLn3JtCAixUcpP/DU1Yyo6OXQMR+fvbmFwfK8guTTtFa0anr0g7NZX3numQnC IpbYDvne5PlBqgAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-18-954007730-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 17:35:41 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA27208 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:35:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3MRU3l055516; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:27:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA3MRUYs055515; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:27:30 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail08.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail08.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.24]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA3MRTli055496 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:27:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 39588 messnum 3859435 invoked from network[83.70.253.75/83-70-253-75.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 3 Nov 2004 22:27:28 -0000 Received: from 83-70-253-75.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?192.168.123.143?) (83.70.253.75) by mail08.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 39588) with SMTP; 3 Nov 2004 22:27:28 -0000 Message-ID: <41895B3A.8000607@dehora.net> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 22:27:06 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8a1) Gecko/20040520 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom WG Subject: Re: Consensus probe on PaceUpdatedDefinition References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: > B) The new wording from the Pace, and the exact old wording from the > draft, are both really unacceptable, but the following would be fine/OK > with me: [[[ The "atom:updated" element is a Date construct indicating the time when the [feed/entry] was changed. Not all modifications to an entry require a changed atom:updated value. ]]] cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 17:43:24 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA28315 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:43:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3MaP0H058597; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:36:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA3MaPAv058595; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:36:25 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.196]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3MaO7A058579 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:36:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rogben@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id y7so204269rne for ; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:36:28 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=VG3M4UOY46NvTvK1rEO81STg76YvqpNmyGsHeo6mbBksyt+DA3CCXE9Qb/+AXcJ90xlh/N85aUMdJcMXufmHYFX0LOOlgA0jf/fJyVgWrrEuOV3xvyZnwK0MnQdGAhvIedztQHNaBHWg83qkM3wjydKSko7iN12GEpeGWjt3qTU= Received: by 10.38.14.34 with SMTP id 34mr264983rnn; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:36:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.96.31 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:36:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <540e373204110314366b45846e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:36:28 -0600 From: "Roger B." Reply-To: "Roger B." To: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: Consensus probe on PaceUpdatedDefinition Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: <3FC30D2B-2DE6-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <3FC30D2B-2DE6-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A) I'm fine/OK with the exact new wording in the Pace. -- Roger From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 17:44:54 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA28467 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:44:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3McYZJ059404; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:38:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA3McYYV059403; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:38:34 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3McYsi059336 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:38:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004110322382901300bvpp7e>; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 22:38:29 +0000 Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:38:28 -0700 Subject: Re: Consensus probe on PaceUpdatedDefinition Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <14E8B71C-2DE9-11D9-BCD5-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday, November 3, 2004, at 02:23 PM, Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: > B) The new wording from the Pace, and the exact old wording from the > draft, are both really unacceptable, but the following would be > fine/OK with me: > > [[ fill in here ]] > > C) The exact old wording in the draft is the best it can be; please > don't change it at all. > I'm okay with the exact wording of the draft, but it could be improved by replacing the last sentence with examples. For example: ------ The "atom:updated" element is a Date construct indicating the most recent instant in time when a change to the entry was made that the publisher wishes to bring to the attention of subscribers. The following examples illustrate how a publisher might decide whether or not to alter atom:updated. However, as the decision is left to the discretion of the publisher, these examples are not to be considered normative: * Spelling corrections which do not significantly affect the meaning or readability of an entry might not warrant altering atom:updated: Original: "I carved a pumkin on Halloween." Corrected: "I carved a pumpkin on Halloween." * Spelling corrections which significantly affect the meaning or readability of an entry might warrant altering atom:updated: Original: "I work in a restaurant. I eat people." Corrected: "I work in a restaurant. I seat people." Original: "My anme is Moe." Corrected: "My name is Joe." * Rewriting which does not significantly affect the meaning of an entry might not warrant altering atom:updated: Original: "Yesterday, I went to the store, ate a big lunch, did my homework, and watched TV." Modified: "Yesterday, I had a big lunch, did some shopping, watched TV, and did some homework." * Rewriting which does significantly affect the meaning of an entry might warrant altering atom:updated: Original: "Yesterday, I went to the store, ate a big lunch, did my homework, and watched TV." Modified: "Yesterday, I ate my homework for lunch and bought a big TV at the store." ------ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 17:48:40 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA28798 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:48:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3MhKAs061242; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:43:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA3MhKbQ061240; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:43:20 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.pubsub.com (mail.pubsub.com [209.11.36.150]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3MhJjo061166; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:43:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bobwyman@pubsub.com) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) by mail.pubsub.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8F7E72400A; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:43:09 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Paul Hoffman / IMC'" , "'Atom WG'" Subject: RE: Consensus probe on PaceUpdatedDefinition Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:43:08 -0500 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-Index: AcTB7vT/+Olf2LSRR+mEGcATp8MVzQAB00Fg Message-Id: <20041103224309.C8F7E72400A@mail.pubsub.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If we must have atom:updated, then the new wording is about as good as it can get. However, I would much prefer if we used distinct mechanisms to indicate the time of the change and the significance of the change. Let's stop overloading this date value as I propose in: http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11110.html -----Original Message----- From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Paul Hoffman / IMC Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 4:23 PM To: Atom WG Subject: Consensus probe on PaceUpdatedDefinition Greetiings again. As usual, it's pretty hard to gauge consensus on this one. It seems that people change their views during the day, sometimes based on a passing "how about if I took out these three words", sometimes just because. Other folks seem pretty solid. The draft says: ----- The "atom:updated" element is a Date construct indicating the most recent instant in time when a change to the entry was made that the publisher wishes to bring to the attention of subscribers. For example, such changes might not include minor adjustments like spelling and grammatical corrections. ----- The exact wording from the Pace we're talking about is: ----- The "atom:updated" element is a Date construct indicating the most recent instant in time when the [feed/entry] was modified in a way the producer considers significant. Ergo, not all modifications necessarily result in a changed atom:updated value. ----- So, please reply on this thread, saying: A) I'm fine/OK with the exact new wording in the Pace. B) The new wording from the Pace, and the exact old wording from the draft, are both really unacceptable, but the following would be fine/OK with me: [[ fill in here ]] C) The exact old wording in the draft is the best it can be; please don't change it at all. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 17:51:15 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA29038 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:51:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3Mj8HR061925; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:45:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA3Mj8Fm061921; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:45:08 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr1.netsolmail.com (omr1.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.162]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3Mj7d7061908; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:45:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr1.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA3Mj8q1009176; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:45:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BXH12313 (AUTH bob@wyman.us); Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:45:06 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411032245.BXH12313@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Paul Hoffman / IMC'" , "'Atom WG'" Subject: RE: Consensus probe on PaceUpdatedDefinition Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:45:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-Index: AcTB7vT/+Olf2LSRR+mEGcATp8MVzQAB00FgAAAW1lA= Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [My apologies if this ends up on the list twice...] If we must have atom:updated, then the new wording is about as good as it can get. However, I would much prefer if we used distinct mechanisms to indicate the time of the change and the significance of the change. Let's stop overloading this date value as I proposed in: http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11110.html bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 18:05:50 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA00328 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 18:05:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3N0Nga068178; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:00:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA3N0NvD068177; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:00:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3N0MpL068073 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:00:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <20041103230017012009n0n1e>; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 23:00:17 +0000 Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:00:15 -0700 Subject: Re: Consensus probe on PaceUpdatedDefinition Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <200411032245.BXH12313@ms8.netsolmail.com> Message-Id: <1FFF891C-2DEC-11D9-BCD5-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday, November 3, 2004, at 03:45 PM, Bob Wyman wrote: > However, I would much prefer if we used distinct mechanisms to > indicate the > time of the change and the significance of the change. Let's stop > overloading this date value as I proposed in: > http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11110.html > If there is a viable way to separate the two, I don't see a problem with it, but the method proposed is problematic: > ...high > Or > ... The problem with both stems from the probability of a polling aggregator missing an important modification if an entry is first modified "importantly" and then trivially between polls. A small change would fix that problem: ...2 Or ... Any value that hasn't been used yet for that entry could appear in the place of "2". Serial numbers would be the most obvious method, but as long as the value is unique for that entry, it could be compared to a cached value to determine whether the publisher had made a change they wanted to flag since the last time the entry was seen. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 18:08:21 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA00718 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 18:08:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3N3GEF069532; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:03:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA3N3Gkd069531; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:03:16 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.196]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3N3EPp069470 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:03:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so7295rnz for ; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 15:03:12 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=eKCVtEsvJK/wCmQdOHbZk4Fkvl+f1DMJsAisGoXKpXHBBugCrHHs5K/+dz9jRmtxNnM17aQhNlFHl1m27OD7KZS9kw4/+0VuSY/NaJGJxBZNMhey330jJV57qaNAQiLxi4RDvJm7p6+cWREtjR0iPrCufmrt0TDJiVtSAVxmsfU= Received: by 10.38.10.72 with SMTP id 72mr39035rnj; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 15:03:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:03:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04110315036cc4f44d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 00:03:12 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: bob@wyman.us Subject: Re: Consensus probe on PaceUpdatedDefinition Cc: Paul Hoffman / IMC , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <200411032245.BXH12313@ms8.netsolmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200411032245.BXH12313@ms8.netsolmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:45:04 -0500, Bob Wyman wrote: > However, I would much prefer if we used distinct mechanisms to indicate the > time of the change and the significance of the change. Let's stop > overloading this date value as I proposed in: > http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11110.html I agree with the thrust of your analysis, but our process does seem to make it difficult to make decisions about more than one construct at a time. However the same meaning as [importance="high", date] is expressed in atom:updated as it stands. The addition of atom:modified would complete the picture. I accept there is resistance to the addition of atom:modified, but perhaps there's some combination of mandatory/optional possible with these two elements which would make a compromise for consensus? Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 18:51:13 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA04358 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 18:51:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3NcfYo085007; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:38:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA3NcfLY085005; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:38:41 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3NceCN084986; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:38:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3Ncjui013547; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:38:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe7 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6M00CSRN0KBK@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM>; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 16:38:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6M000IVN0HZ3@mail.sun.net>; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 16:38:42 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 15:38:38 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Consensus probe on PaceUpdatedDefinition In-reply-to: To: Paul Hoffman / IMC Cc: Atom WG Message-id: <7CE5F98D-2DF1-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 3, 2004, at 1:23 PM, Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: > The exact wording from the Pace we're talking about is: > > ----- > The "atom:updated" element is a Date construct indicating the most > recent instant in time when the [feed/entry] was modified in a way > the producer considers significant. Ergo, not all modifications > necessarily result in a changed atom:updated value. > ----- > > So, please reply on this thread, saying: > > A) I'm fine/OK with the exact new wording in the Pace. Yes, but the spec should be in English not Latin. Thus s/Ergo/Therefore/ [this is purely an editorial issue and thus I can still say "A)"] > C) The exact old wording in the draft is the best it can be; please > don't change it at all. BTW, I can live with the old wording too. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 19:25:36 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA06562 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 19:25:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA40HD2V002442; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:17:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA40HD7M002441; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:17:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40823.mail.yahoo.com (web40823.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.92.70]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA40HCFb002392 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:17:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20041104001712.34052.qmail@web40823.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [131.107.71.94] by web40823.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 16:17:12 PST Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:17:12 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: Consensus probe on PaceUpdatedDefinition To: Paul Hoffman / IMC , Atom WG In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: A) I'm fine/OK with the exact new wording in the Pace. ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 19:35:11 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA07135 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 19:35:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA40QWYt006004; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:26:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA40QWFA005998; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:26:32 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA40QW9J005992 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:26:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from duerst@w3.org) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A8E64EFF9; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 19:26:35 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20041103193454.06109888@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 19:36:13 +0900 To: Antone Roundy , atom-syntax@imc.org From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition In-Reply-To: <196AF35E-2CED-11D9-8145-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> References: <4183BDA4.6050307@franklinmint.fm> <196AF35E-2CED-11D9-8145-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 01:34 04/11/03, Antone Roundy wrote: >Examples: > >* Trivial spelling fix (even though the entry is short): >Original: I carved a pumkin on Halloween. >Fixed: I carved a pumpkin on Halloween. > >* Critical spelling fix: >Original: I work at a restaurant. I eat people. >Fixed: I work at a restaurant. I seat people. > >* Critical spelling fix: >Original: Nt bane us Abtibe >Fixed: My name is Antone >(In the original, which was published very hastily, the publisher's right hand was one key too far left on the keyboard). Sometimes (but probably not always), a good rule of thumb may be whether the change would lead to a change in a translation of the entry. Regards, Martin. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 19:56:58 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA08854 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 19:56:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA40mQ3S012959; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:48:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA40mQtW012958; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:48:26 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from localhost.localdomain (air643.startdedicated.com [69.64.38.51]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA40mPRS012925 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:48:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from david@blojsom.com) Received: (qmail 20790 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2004 00:34:31 -0000 Received: from alb-24-195-142-151.nycap.rr.com (HELO ?10.0.1.2?) (24.195.142.151) by air643.startdedicated.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2004 00:34:31 -0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.1.0.040913 Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 19:53:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Consensus probe on PaceUpdatedDefinition From: David Czarnecki To: atom-syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 11/3/04 4:23 PM, "Paul Hoffman / IMC" wrote: > A) I'm fine/OK with the exact new wording in the Pace. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 21:03:54 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA13684 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 21:03:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA41qK8a040344; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:52:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA41qKdJ040343; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:52:20 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA41qJvE040319 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:52:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (203.30.247.2) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:52:26 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 12:52:23 +1100 Subject: Re: Consensus probe on PaceUpdatedDefinition From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 4/11/04 8:23 AM, "Paul Hoffman / IMC" wrote: > B) The new wording from the Pace, and the exact old wording from the > draft, are both really unacceptable, but the following would be > fine/OK with me: modula s/Ergo/Therefore/ e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 21:04:19 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA13712 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 21:04:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA41wNNa043067; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:58:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA41wNnk043066; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:58:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA41wLcR043050 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:58:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (203.30.247.2) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:58:30 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 12:42:20 +1100 Subject: Re: PaceUpdatedDefinition From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4188F392.3050008@franklinmint.fm> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 4/11/04 2:04 AM, "Robert Sayre" wrote: >> Bob Wyman wrote: >>> ... >> >> I can see the point of doing this. > > Me too. > > ... not a good solution though, unless you can guarantee that consumers will receive *all* editions of the entry. If they happen to miss the entry which has the x:priority or whatever, and a subsequent less important modification is published, then they won't know there has been an interesting modification at all. that's why a timestamp of the most recent significant update is useful. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 23:40:17 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA22957 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 23:40:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA44Ypoe015510; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 20:34:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA44YpMq015509; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 20:34:51 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from fed1rmmtao01.cox.net (fed1rmmtao01.cox.net [68.230.241.38]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA44YoaK015455 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 20:34:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fielding@gbiv.com) Received: from [192.168.0.100] (really [68.4.71.218]) by fed1rmmtao01.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-117-20041022) with ESMTP id <20041104043450.QSND10899.fed1rmmtao01.cox.net@[192.168.0.100]>; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 23:34:50 -0500 In-Reply-To: <200411021706.BXC26501@ms8.netsolmail.com> References: <200411021706.BXC26501@ms8.netsolmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Atom Syntax From: "Roy T. Fielding" Subject: Re: current status of source and/or via-link tracking syntax Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 20:34:51 -0800 To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Nov 2, 2004, at 9:04 AM, Bob Wyman wrote: > Just to confuse matters a bit, I'd like to suggest that folk take a > look at the RDF/A Syntax[1] which may be useful for us in general > while also > making the RDF folk a bit happier then they otherwise might be. RDF/A > provides a means for layering RDF information on any XML document by > defining a new XML syntax for RDF that relies only on XML attributes. Yikes, no, Qnames have no meaning inside content -- they are only processed by the XML parser. If they are inside the attribute value then the attribute value reader must backtrack through the XML tree in order to rediscover the Qname -> namespace URI mapping, which is kind of hard to do given that attribute value readers tend not to be XML parsers and don't have access to the tree (unless they happen to be an XSLT application). > Given that many of the things that people want to do with the > proposed extensions to atom:link look very "RDF-like", it might be > useful to > rely on a proposal that comes from RDF-land... That doesn't come from RDF land -- it is a Note by two authors. ....Roy From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 3 23:44:12 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA23106 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 23:44:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA44Rd1Y012685; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 20:27:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA44Rdo2012680; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 20:27:39 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA44Rclm012669; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 20:27:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from duerst@w3.org) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DEBC4EFA5; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 23:27:43 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20041104132524.0257afa8@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 13:26:46 +0900 To: Paul Hoffman / IMC , Atom WG From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: Consensus probe on PaceUpdatedDefinition In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit C) is best, A) is okay. Adding examlpes would improve things in both cases. There is a limit to how much more we can improve the text; ultimately, implementers and users will either get it or not. Regards, Martin. At 06:23 04/11/04, Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: >So, please reply on this thread, saying: > >A) I'm fine/OK with the exact new wording in the Pace. > >B) The new wording from the Pace, and the exact old wording from the draft, are both really unacceptable, but the following would be fine/OK with me: > > [[ fill in here ]] > >C) The exact old wording in the draft is the best it can be; please don't change it at all. > >--Paul Hoffman, Director >--Internet Mail Consortium > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 00:13:06 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA24317 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 00:13:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA455gGJ028812; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 21:05:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA455gXH028811; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 21:05:42 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [10.20.30.249] (dsl2-63-249-109-3.cruzio.com [63.249.109.3]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA455f5s028794 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 21:05:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <418571C8.1080008@franklinmint.fm> References: <41842242.5050305@franklinmint.fm> <418571C8.1080008@franklinmint.fm> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 21:05:45 -0800 To: Atom WG From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: reject PaceErrVerb, and maybe PaceServiceError, too Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At 6:14 PM -0500 10/31/04, Robert Sayre wrote: >Close PaceErrVerb. It's a nice idea that will never get done in this >WG, if it's even possible at all. Agree. If it should be done, it should be done in the W3C, and I suspect that won't happen soon. >PaceServiceError could work. Agree. > However, we have no specified notion of Errors or Conformance, so >it's tough to tell whether the proposal would be helpful. We do have enough of a concept of errors in the format, and certainly XML has lots of specific ways to be non-compliant. > If we come up with a status quo position on conformance, then I >would definitely want it in 1.0. A Dead Letter Office is better than >nothing. If we decide on something better, then it could be >something added later if required. I'm more strongly in favor than that. The IETF has a long history of bad implementations of format protocols where we end up just sighing and saying, "man, there's a lot of bad programmers out there". It doesn't have to be that way. When I ran big email interop events, folks from Company A would walk over to folks from Company B with a trace of what was just sent and say "I'm sorry, but that's crap". Often, within a few hours, the folks from Company B would say "OK, let's see if this is better" and they would have fixed the bug. (Yes, they brought source code and compilers to the events; it was pretty cool.) I fully believe that if there is an error-reporting facility, even if it is turned on only 10% of the time, it will be of great benefit to the entire Atom community. It will cause us to sigh less in five years. It will help the good developers fix their problems early, and it will help make it clearer who the good and bad developers are. It's worth the effort. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 00:45:48 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA28805 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 00:45:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA45Z6Sp042334; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 21:35:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA45Z6cu042333; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 21:35:06 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA45Z5Ut042327 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 21:35:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA45ZBNH015195 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 22:35:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6N00A7I3INPH@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 22:35:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.204.150]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6N00JGJ3IMGS@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 22:35:11 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 21:35:07 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: PaceServiceError To: Atom WG Message-id: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I'm feeling positive about PaceServiceError, but I have a question: why does it need to use a new custom-built HTTP verb? Why don't we just specify that you POST to the ServiceError URI two name-value pairs, CGI style, either in the URI or the body? Name Value resource the URI where the problem is problem free-text description of the problem, no markup e.g. POST with no body to http://example.com/service/error?name=http://example.com/feed/ 315135&problem=not%20well- formed,unbalanced%20tag%20line%2041%20col%20118 -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 02:02:09 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA07008 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 02:02:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA46qDqq094162; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 22:52:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA46qDvu094146; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 22:52:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA46qCD1093970 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 22:52:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from quark (58.80-202-95.nextgentel.com [80.202.95.58]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60CF94C6F; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:52:54 +0100 (MET) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 07:53:49 +0100 To: "Tim Bray" Subject: Re: PaceServiceError Cc: Atom-Syntax References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 21:35:07 -0800, Tim Bray wrote: > I'm feeling positive about PaceServiceError, but I have a question: why > does it need to use a new custom-built HTTP verb? Why don't we just > specify that you POST to the ServiceError URI two name-value pairs, CGI > style, either in the URI or the body? I think a new HTTP method gives us more than routing this message through POST. To err something is not equivalent of posting, and without a method for this, you can't err different resources, but have to err an URI with reference to the resource that is erronous. So instead of: ERR /feed.atom you need to do something like this: POST /cgi-bin/error.cgi Content-Type: application/x-www-form-urlencoded Content-Length: 53 error-document=/feed.atom&description=Ill-formed+XML I don't think the second example is either simpler, more elegant or more RESTful than the first. Quite the opposite, actually. -- Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- asbjornu@hotmail.com «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 07:26:35 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA14111 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:26:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4CApMp022785; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 04:10:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4CAp8a022782; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 04:10:51 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4CAoDd022754; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 04:10:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from duerst@w3.org) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F5654EECC; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:10:50 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20041104151154.0859a910@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 15:12:32 +0900 To: Paul Hoffman / IMC , Atom WG From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: reject PaceErrVerb, and maybe PaceServiceError, too In-Reply-To: References: <41842242.5050305@franklinmint.fm> <418571C8.1080008@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 14:05 04/11/04, Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: > >At 6:14 PM -0500 10/31/04, Robert Sayre wrote: >>Close PaceErrVerb. It's a nice idea that will never get done in this WG, if it's even possible at all. > >Agree. If it should be done, it should be done in the W3C, Why? HTTP is defined by the IETF, not the W3C (although the W3C helped quite a bit). Regards, Martin. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 07:36:46 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA14654 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:36:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4CTNgZ036765; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 04:29:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4CTNTD036764; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 04:29:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4CTMBq036676; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 04:29:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA4CFXR6015373; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:15:45 GMT In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20041104132524.0257afa8@localhost> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20041104132524.0257afa8@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-19-1004249086; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <39F1A807-2E5B-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Cc: Atom WG From: Graham Subject: Re: Consensus probe on PaceUpdatedDefinition Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:15:33 +0000 To: Paul Hoffman / IMC X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-19-1004249086 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Random thought: "The last time the entry was brought up to date" ? 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Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:41:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4CXiFq039460; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 04:33:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4CXiMm039459; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 04:33:44 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4CXhL1039429 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 04:33:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0ccekcs.cable.mindspring.com ([24.199.81.156] helo=[192.168.1.101]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPgo7-00061d-JZ; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 12:33:39 +0000 Message-ID: <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 07:33:37 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Bray CC: Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceServiceError References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > > I'm feeling positive about PaceServiceError, but I have a question: why > does it need to use a new custom-built HTTP verb? Why don't we just > specify that you POST to the ServiceError URI two name-value pairs, CGI > style, either in the URI or the body? > It uses a new a verb so you can't screw up the XML on purpose and send requests to random POST handlers. Using a new verb means that the resource actually has to be an Atom error handler. This is important because the requests could be fired off automatically, from behind firewalls, etc. It's important that it be no more dangerous than img @src. I have no opinion on the value of information sent along with the request, but I'll note that some Atom Protocol implementations send back responses that look like this: You've screwed up! Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 08:29:42 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA18807 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:29:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4DK8nW060145; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 05:20:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4DK830060144; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 05:20:08 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4DK7Ta060136 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 05:20:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id f1so335045rne for ; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 05:20:03 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=d8Wn/749aZ51CWXz4UaN0CEIlUabUFUhs6GbDQLFvSM82NZasKM6ciLv28UHcQ+uAW2nzinUArULWHWKY+1ioMXyWmxf5E0nXvOKKmznvTzXUsN/LgpwPNOEa0vVu2EADOKtDl66c+sW+IhRYQIiwfQMDra0NXO+UWRkAAh3RKk= Received: by 10.38.158.11 with SMTP id g11mr1479626rne; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 05:20:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.151.28 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 05:20:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3f1451f504110405201b45d62@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:20:03 -0500 From: Joe Gregorio Reply-To: Joe Gregorio To: mint@franklinmint.fm Subject: Re: PaceServiceError Cc: Tim Bray , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 07:33:37 -0500, Robert Sayre wrote: > > Tim Bray wrote: > > > > I'm feeling positive about PaceServiceError, but I have a question: why > > does it need to use a new custom-built HTTP verb? Why don't we just > > specify that you POST to the ServiceError URI two name-value pairs, CGI > > style, either in the URI or the body? > > > > It uses a new a verb so you can't screw up the XML on purpose and send > requests to random POST handlers. Using a new verb means that the > resource actually has to be an Atom error handler. This is important > because the requests could be fired off automatically, from behind > firewalls, etc. It's important that it be no more dangerous than img @src I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that of these two requests, the first one is 'safer'? ---------------------------------------------- ERROR /errorhandler HTTP/1.1 Content-Type: application/atom+xml Something bad happened. ---------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------- POST /errorhandler HTTP/1.1 Content-Type: application/atom+xml Something bad happened. ---------------------------------------------- -joe -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 08:39:53 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA19967 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:39:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4DY5PO065756; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 05:34:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4DY55K065755; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 05:34:05 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4DY57C065748 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 05:34:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPhkY-00081R-G2; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 13:34:02 +0000 Message-ID: <418A2FCA.2010109@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 08:34:02 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Gregorio CC: Tim Bray , Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceServiceError References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> <3f1451f504110405201b45d62@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3f1451f504110405201b45d62@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Gregorio wrote: > > I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that of these > two requests, the first one is 'safer'? > I didn't mean that a custom verb would result in a "safe method." I meant I'm not enthusiastic about defining a distributed, XML parser-triggered proxy mechanism for POSTing to an arbitrary URI.[0] Robert Sayre [0] http://imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg05568.html From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 08:55:03 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA21093 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:55:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4DjbN9070960; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 05:45:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4DjbCP070959; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 05:45:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4DjaBQ070899 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 05:45:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA4DZSE2028300; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:35:29 GMT In-Reply-To: <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-20-1009044885; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <64766A16-2E66-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Cc: Tim Bray , Atom WG From: Graham Subject: Re: PaceServiceError Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:35:28 +0000 To: mint@franklinmint.fm X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-20-1009044885 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 4 Nov 2004, at 12:33 pm, Robert Sayre wrote: > It uses a new a verb so you can't screw up the XML on purpose and send > requests to random POST handlers. Using a new verb means that the > resource actually has to be an Atom error handler. ???? Graham --Apple-Mail-20-1009044885 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMTA0MTMzNTI5WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUnooE3ou+FwF+KftQkaTt9Xpc F3wweAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEADo6wQtpCrjzDR3/q02uDgmJh 1lLQPBTvou46jO6PEiOIusEcMb5XGGlSDoBy8LT153gNOnGR4aslWgYzyzWZSgNI6YMgKvGh04mO 3F4dDqVXHms2VpMVA//bt1MrGUuaRrVyRyZ5ryhpomtvb9/tDS5QyZKDvvxVpBXL0qWn6jRONpMw /YpT1GKS2HB15qAc1Wh5ZK2+pF/A2BaC5tMojJX6uO+yUHHoB03SqPLbLn3uWCmmpeRjI6wo2Z0d wghF6Tq0sLsunrR7l+FHXCQu7FY8UxrU9UDK+b0KUxrWm/j+3GSXHJZw5JGTHexEgsT/N/iu8N/5 Wi9vjenkzo9dRAAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-20-1009044885-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 09:01:05 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA21683 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:01:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4Dqagi074433; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 05:52:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4DqaDx074432; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 05:52:36 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4DqZN5074425 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 05:52:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPi2T-00008D-E4; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 13:52:33 +0000 Message-ID: <418A3421.1080101@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 08:52:33 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham CC: Tim Bray , Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceServiceError References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> <64766A16-2E66-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <64766A16-2E66-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > On 4 Nov 2004, at 12:33 pm, Robert Sayre wrote: > >> It uses a new a verb so you can't screw up the XML on purpose and send >> requests to random POST handlers. Using a new verb means that the >> resource actually has to be an Atom error handler. > > > ???? HTTP/1.1 200 OK Content-Type: application/atom+xml Atom-Error: http://example.com/manager/admin ... ... POST /manager/admin HTTP/1.1 Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 09:26:06 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA24365 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:26:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4EIdpk085623; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 06:18:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4EIdwq085621; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 06:18:39 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4EIbYn085567 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 06:18:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA4DqiL1008532; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:52:44 GMT In-Reply-To: <418A2FCA.2010109@franklinmint.fm> References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> <3f1451f504110405201b45d62@mail.gmail.com> <418A2FCA.2010109@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-21-1010081102; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: Cc: Joe Gregorio , Tim Bray , Atom WG From: Graham Subject: Re: PaceServiceError Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:52:45 +0000 To: Robert Sayre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-21-1010081102 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 4 Nov 2004, at 1:34 pm, Robert Sayre wrote: > I didn't mean that a custom verb would result in a "safe method." I > meant I'm not enthusiastic about defining a distributed, XML > parser-triggered proxy mechanism for POSTing to an arbitrary URI.[0] But why do you think ERRing to an arbitrary URI is safer? Graham --Apple-Mail-21-1010081102 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMTA0MTM1MjQ1WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQU9V/Pz9Nccz6trDj0l5tFpmFN U2QweAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEAlzbua+e7Py5/T/uxVxPNbcgt PKxWCkZ1BpdFkjwKRivYx20lxcy/Au33DDJfdh4jFFaUOt0MF27Icg8s+/lCysgc+5oQZWEX0npk Ty8EaEIWK18TiOPr6ZYCJ6p7w1FP7adiBOvLFbT3pUNQozknBXcZOzAhNTH8PVhV2mm+ebh28Hy2 zPsAf3gfNO/bxpeJASxLDqegOTcWOsFXpGWRqoY+ERCs0P3Q5BQgozxBIvHn54XKr7xv5qF78bHd 5HELFcPUhAbx2XHPCJaXlSvOIC/MNat1ArvrO6hDxk/+eNaMWSlYDWGxY+/DzHZA5zUxZF552GNm m3RDNH2GXkB1gwAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-21-1010081102-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 09:39:51 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA25289 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:39:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4EWw6H090248; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 06:32:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4EWwHF090247; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 06:32:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40801.mail.yahoo.com (web40801.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.78.178]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA4EWwgs090215 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 06:32:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 35105 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Nov 2004 14:32:50 -0000 Message-ID: <20041104143249.35103.qmail@web40801.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.18.132.123] by web40801.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 06:32:49 PST Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 06:32:49 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: PaceServiceError To: Robert Sayre , Graham Cc: Tim Bray , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <418A3421.1080101@franklinmint.fm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --- Robert Sayre wrote: > > > On 4 Nov 2004, at 12:33 pm, Robert Sayre wrote: > > > >> It uses a new a verb so you can't screw up the > XML on purpose and send > >> requests to random POST handlers. Using a new > verb means that the > >> resource actually has to be an Atom error > handler. > > > > > > ???? > > HTTP/1.1 200 OK > Content-Type: application/atom+xml > Atom-Error: http://example.com/manager/admin > > > ... > ... > > POST /manager/admin HTTP/1.1 I still don't get it. How does using a new HTTP method somehow prevent whatever problems you claim exist by using POST. Also you need to do a better job of explaining what these supposed problems are. ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 09:40:05 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA25322 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:40:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4EUCt8089062; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 06:30:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4EUCFs089061; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 06:30:12 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4EUBc9089054 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 06:30:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id g11so167356rne for ; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 06:30:13 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=bwmIhe9Nnd5K866hYyeEb+C4wuFdwADRgODw9aNhNK5aIye/oU+yLMFI6F4NhurWjIfcZlCgT6+cS/53qnjEAmHnWvSEC9p6t/bOfP199CrplgncKs3e1+e/XqkBEWKTZOarps+END9axFZ5BXdEELIMPPRnl+Po5HiS9JUWYSk= Received: by 10.38.218.39 with SMTP id q39mr592289rng; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 06:30:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.151.28 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 06:30:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3f1451f5041104063044560b37@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:30:13 -0500 From: Joe Gregorio Reply-To: Joe Gregorio To: Robert Sayre Subject: Re: PaceServiceError Cc: Tim Bray , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <418A2FCA.2010109@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> <3f1451f504110405201b45d62@mail.gmail.com> <418A2FCA.2010109@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 08:34:02 -0500, Robert Sayre wrote: > Joe Gregorio wrote: > > > > > I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that of these > > two requests, the first one is 'safer'? > > > > I didn't mean that a custom verb would result in a "safe method." I > meant I'm not enthusiastic about defining a distributed, XML > parser-triggered proxy mechanism for POSTing to an arbitrary URI.[0] How do the terms 'proxy' and 'arbitrary URI' apply to the description given in http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceServiceError ? -joe -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 09:52:56 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA26351 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:52:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4Eig89094361; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 06:44:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4EigUv094360; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 06:44:42 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4Eifo4094351 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 06:44:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPiqs-000261-Nf; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 14:44:39 +0000 Message-ID: <418A4057.9070003@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 09:44:39 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Gregorio CC: Tim Bray , Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceServiceError References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> <3f1451f504110405201b45d62@mail.gmail.com> <418A2FCA.2010109@franklinmint.fm> <3f1451f5041104063044560b37@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3f1451f5041104063044560b37@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Gregorio wrote: > > How do the terms 'proxy' and 'arbitrary URI' apply to the > description given in http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceServiceError ? "Proxy" applies in the general sense of the word, rather than the HTTP-specific one. By "Arbitrary URI", I mean a different URI than the resource that contains the error. None of the hierarchical semantics of HTTP URIs are used to constrain possible acceptable values for the ErrorURI. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 09:58:42 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA26808 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:58:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4EqVMu096161; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 06:52:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4EqVDp096160; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 06:52:31 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail01.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail01.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.17]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA4EqUfL096128 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 06:52:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 98581 messnum 7731200 invoked from network[62.77.172.85/62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net]); 4 Nov 2004 14:52:27 -0000 Received: from 62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net (HELO ?200.200.200.35?) (62.77.172.85) by mail01.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 98581) with SMTP; 4 Nov 2004 14:52:27 -0000 Message-ID: <418A4224.50204@dehora.net> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 14:52:20 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8a1) Gecko/20040520 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceServiceError References: <20041104143249.35103.qmail@web40801.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041104143249.35103.qmail@web40801.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dare Obasanjo wrote: > > --- Robert Sayre wrote: > >>>On 4 Nov 2004, at 12:33 pm, Robert Sayre wrote: >>> >>> >>>>It uses a new a verb so you can't screw up the >> >>XML on purpose and send >> >>>>requests to random POST handlers. Using a new >> >>verb means that the >> >>>>resource actually has to be an Atom error >> >>handler. >> >>> >>>???? >> >>HTTP/1.1 200 OK >>Content-Type: application/atom+xml >>Atom-Error: http://example.com/manager/admin >> >> >>... >>... >> >>POST /manager/admin HTTP/1.1 > > > I still don't get it. How does using a new HTTP method > somehow prevent whatever problems you claim exist by > using POST. Also you need to do a better job of > explaining what these supposed problems are. I could see an argument as follows - Error notification semantics are sufficiently crisp or distinct that they are justified in being broken out from POST*. - Only servers built with this HTTP extension in mind will need to deal with it (for now that's Atom aware. but over time we should be wary about calling it an "Atom method") - Intermediaries, such as security applications, can reason about the method independent of other things going through POST. - Any caching subtleties can be reasoned about independent of POST. Nonetheless, my main issue is bifurcation of resources** into those that know about ERR and those that don't. Unless the case is cast-iron I think it hurts Atom adoption to be extending HTTP like this. Finally, that case probably needs to incorporate a solid argument that doing error notifs over POST is not just broken or inelegant, but harmful. cheers Bill * This is where Mark Baker and I will not start a sidethread about POST's genericism ;) ** Only web services wankers worry about services. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 10:04:41 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA27419 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:04:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4Ewim7098433; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 06:58:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4EwiM1098432; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 06:58:44 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.204]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4EwhJE098424 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 06:58:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id g11so174716rne for ; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 06:58:45 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=LH+ydtyr7C1YM9lq05hm4jiEltygJlxslXOWvWerirIFaaaJAfvSAg38nl4xqFsD40DSGwX+dpAsDXaFS9nbIDFR+NgZWaRA4bdPHXtD4/f5nU/mge+jyVSE0ZsGK2qxPPU3wseUE4TW1JsLWbLswxQglKD+hjtySRbSXAUmF5I= Received: by 10.38.86.55 with SMTP id j55mr365949rnb; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 06:58:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.151.28 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 06:58:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3f1451f504110406586ad11fac@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:58:45 -0500 From: Joe Gregorio Reply-To: Joe Gregorio To: mint@franklinmint.fm Subject: Re: PaceServiceError Cc: Tim Bray , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <418A4057.9070003@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> <3f1451f504110405201b45d62@mail.gmail.com> <418A2FCA.2010109@franklinmint.fm> <3f1451f5041104063044560b37@mail.gmail.com> <418A4057.9070003@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 09:44:39 -0500, Robert Sayre wrote: > Joe Gregorio wrote: > > > > How do the terms 'proxy' and 'arbitrary URI' apply to the > > description given in http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceServiceError ? > > "Proxy" applies in the general sense of the word, rather than the > HTTP-specific one. By "Arbitrary URI", I mean a different URI than the > resource that contains the error. None of the hierarchical semantics of > HTTP URIs are used to constrain possible acceptable values for the ErrorURI. Ok, so neither of those words adds any to the description and your explaination of them has not in any way clarified to me what you see as a problem here. What exactly do you see as a problem with using POST and how does using ERROR fix it? -joe -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 10:10:52 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA28296 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:10:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4F4AIw000992; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:04:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4F4AM4000991; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:04:10 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4F4AFO000985 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:04:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPj9j-0002vu-SQ; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 15:04:08 +0000 Message-ID: <418A44E8.4090101@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:04:08 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dare Obasanjo CC: Graham , Tim Bray , Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceServiceError References: <20041104143249.35103.qmail@web40801.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041104143249.35103.qmail@web40801.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dare Obasanjo wrote: > > I still don't get it. How does using a new HTTP method > somehow prevent whatever problems you claim exist by > using POST. Also you need to do a better job of > explaining what these supposed problems are. > Let's see. It's tough to make an exhaustive list, because POST is used for all sorts of things, many of which are not idempotent (PaceServiceError is), and the list of purposes its used for grows every day. Cross-site scripting would be a good one. 1.) Evil person finds naive PHP script out there on the net. 2.) Evil person manipulates honest clients into POSTing to it by giving them bogus XML. 3.) PHP script bombarded with POSTs from random clients. Using a new verb makes it likely that a 405 would result. Also, I'd like to note that the Pace doesn't say anything about a body for the request. It's just a hit counter. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 10:36:00 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA01635 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:36:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4FQjKs008275; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:26:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4FQj8O008274; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:26:45 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4FQi85008268 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:26:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id g11so183223rne for ; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 07:26:46 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=UNzNZ0LaszQIICUBiCoiHsLaL+L0iechh+0mo3COr2MiEEEQLsdFdk86UwQlZuD4kvAxyXk5lZh1rdYTccOOr2U1OyKM18QxgTrdRJQ7uEEdHzXjja+orFm4bvRd6TWjEEtFLLT8UEnZ4KTYxbUhkID2rqOkyMhjFCWB9arwCp0= Received: by 10.38.218.39 with SMTP id q39mr625751rng; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 07:26:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.151.28 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:26:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3f1451f504110407261a5b8bd0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:26:46 -0500 From: Joe Gregorio Reply-To: Joe Gregorio To: mint@franklinmint.fm Subject: Re: PaceServiceError Cc: Dare Obasanjo , Graham , Tim Bray , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <418A44E8.4090101@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20041104143249.35103.qmail@web40801.mail.yahoo.com> <418A44E8.4090101@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:04:08 -0500, Robert Sayre wrote: > > Dare Obasanjo wrote: > > > > > I still don't get it. How does using a new HTTP method > > somehow prevent whatever problems you claim exist by > > using POST. Also you need to do a better job of > > explaining what these supposed problems are. > > > > Let's see. It's tough to make an exhaustive list, because POST is used > for all sorts of things, many of which are not idempotent > (PaceServiceError is), and the list of purposes its used for grows every > day. > > Cross-site scripting would be a good one. > > 1.) Evil person finds naive PHP script out there on the net. > 2.) Evil person manipulates honest clients into POSTing to it by giving > them bogus XML. How, exactly, is evil person stopped from sending an ERROR but yet they can send a POST? > 3.) PHP script bombarded with POSTs from random clients. Using a new > verb makes it likely that a 405 would result. A DOS, or even DDOS attack is just that, an attack, and all of the methods under discussion here are all equally vulnerable to that. All the methods avoid using GET which allows a really simple img/@src method of triggering such a DDOS attack. > > Also, I'd like to note that the Pace doesn't say anything about a body > for the request. It's just a hit counter. > > Robert Sayre > > -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 10:36:53 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA01720 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:36:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4FSo4q008658; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:28:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4FSon6008657; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:28:50 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4FSn9k008651 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:28:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPjXc-0003sq-A3; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 15:28:48 +0000 Message-ID: <418A4AB1.20904@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:28:49 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Bray CC: Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceServiceError References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> <3B916024-2E75-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <3B916024-2E75-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > > Having read the eight follow-ups, I'm really unconvinced. I'm pretty > sure that if I were malicious and wanted to DOS some Atom > implementation, there are easier ways than what you propose. And It's not about DOSing an Atom implementation. It's about exploiting any HTTP server with an insecure POST handler through an Atom client. Using POST for PaceServiceError is completely irresponsible. > inventing new HTTP verbs is really questionable. That's the subtext of all the arguments for POST, I think. Unfortunately, it's not really backed by anything other than religion. It's also humorous to me that most of the people who feel that way have no problem with inventing new verbs by extending HTTP with custom headers. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 10:39:06 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA01842 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:39:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4FKUdD006919; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:20:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4FKUxB006918; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:20:30 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4FKTXs006912 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:20:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPjPY-0003ak-IM; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 15:20:28 +0000 Message-ID: <418A48BD.4030001@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:20:29 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= CC: Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceServiceError References: <20041104143249.35103.qmail@web40801.mail.yahoo.com> <418A4224.50204@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: <418A4224.50204@dehora.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill de hÓra wrote: > > Nonetheless, my main issue is bifurcation of resources** into those that > know about ERR and those that don't. Unless the case is cast-iron I > think it hurts Atom adoption to be extending HTTP like this. I don't understand what you mean by "bifurcation". Almost all resources have a limited number of supported methods. The case is cast-iron, because POST is used with completely variable non-idempotent semantics. Its advocates can never prove their case. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 10:40:13 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA01940 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:40:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4FLixo007175; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:21:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4FLiQA007174; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:21:44 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4FLh9r007168 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:21:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4FLjNH004087 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:21:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6N00LHCUO97N@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 08:21:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.204.150]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6N003HHUO835@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 08:21:45 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 07:21:42 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: PaceServiceError In-reply-to: <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> To: mint@franklinmint.fm Cc: Atom WG Message-id: <3B916024-2E75-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 4, 2004, at 4:33 AM, Robert Sayre wrote: >> why does it need to use a new custom-built HTTP verb? Why don't we >> just specify that you POST to the ServiceError URI two name-value >> pairs, CGI style, either in the URI or the body? > > It uses a new a verb so you can't screw up the XML on purpose and send > requests to random POST handlers Having read the eight follow-ups, I'm really unconvinced. I'm pretty sure that if I were malicious and wanted to DOS some Atom implementation, there are easier ways than what you propose. And inventing new HTTP verbs is really questionable. On balance, I'm -1 on PaceServiceError with a new HTTP verb. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 11:05:03 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA04438 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:05:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4FxItg020014; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:59:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4FxI6s020013; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:59:18 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA4FxGmD019946 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:59:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian.reschke@gmx.de) Received: (qmail 20357 invoked by uid 65534); 4 Nov 2004 15:59:13 -0000 Received: from p50825DBB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (EHLO [192.168.1.15]) (80.130.93.187) by mail.gmx.net (mp013) with SMTP; 04 Nov 2004 16:59:13 +0100 X-Authenticated: #1915285 Message-ID: <418A51CF.1050508@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 16:59:11 +0100 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Bray CC: Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceServiceError References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> <3B916024-2E75-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <3B916024-2E75-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > ... > Having read the eight follow-ups, I'm really unconvinced. I'm pretty > sure that if I were malicious and wanted to DOS some Atom > implementation, there are easier ways than what you propose. And > inventing new HTTP verbs is really questionable. > ... What's so questionable about it? Regards, Julian -- bytes GmbH -- http://www.greenbytes.de -- tel:+492512807760 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 11:05:24 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA04547 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:05:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4FvW2U019071; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:57:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4FvWmP019064; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:57:32 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.143.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4FvVbc018994 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:57:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52BA0D9 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:57:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net (spike.verity.com [10.69.100.102]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id iA4FvQKB020248 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:57:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 07:57:28 -0800 From: Walter Underwood To: Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceServiceError Message-ID: <116DF74EBCE83E0C33D0C88B@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Mac OS X) X-Face: 7Vqnb4fOVKsO)3JuUXKxR\M]:e"u'eG`Zue*.((7i7%P%rvZgS[j~95@C-s3i (s!e;OX`'Pngn5lq*Td}#,"5!^jm(65.";[GPtD^c(/1TtMe&wYO;_}\!}fRkxs%q#Jk 5E^BlXwR+8}qOwy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On Thursday, November 4, 2004 7:33 AM -0500 Robert Sayre wrote: > > It uses a new a verb so you can't screw up the XML on purpose and send > requests to random POST handlers. Using a new verb means that the resource > actually has to be an Atom error handler. The second sentence is wrong. Anyone can implement ERROR. It is an HTTP method, not an Atom method. We should expect other implementations. If we want an Atom-only HTTP method, then we should call it ATOMONLYERROR. Or maybe we can namespace-qualify it. Changing the name doesn't really protect bad implementations of POST handlers. Those need to check their inputs, like any other code. I strongly favor POST over a new HTTP method. Post has existing semantics and parameter-passing formats. Relying on those makes our spec smaller and implementations easier. Defining those anew for Atom makes the spec bigger and implementations harder. POST should also make QA and load testing easier. Anybody got a load tester that already implements ERROR? wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect, Verity From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 11:06:08 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA04613 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:06:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4G0BVv020481; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:00:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4G0Bqv020480; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:00:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.200]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4G0A6c020473 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:00:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id g11so192838rne for ; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 08:00:05 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=TeTIoNgPUEss81eZYeObeVoZ391MQ1Qzdgn9LESlDm5wfI8m3K5VPdFhw/7UT60VxZP0Zjg/zSECBXwzWLy+a6pf67zsd4CBXqRxInOf86p7nmndyG3+WTwpws2goPDmQ2G5Xz6PypyjH3L2YFMQomCuzusMh2jvXzBSaxj0F0A= Received: by 10.38.161.53 with SMTP id j53mr120624rne; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 08:00:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.151.28 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:00:05 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3f1451f504110408003e43e8f8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:00:05 -0500 From: Joe Gregorio Reply-To: Joe Gregorio To: mint@franklinmint.fm Subject: Re: PaceServiceError Cc: Tim Bray , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <418A4AB1.20904@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> <3B916024-2E75-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A4AB1.20904@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:28:49 -0500, Robert Sayre wrote: > > Tim Bray wrote: > > > > > Having read the eight follow-ups, I'm really unconvinced. I'm pretty > > sure that if I were malicious and wanted to DOS some Atom > > implementation, there are easier ways than what you propose. And > > It's not about DOSing an Atom implementation. It's about exploiting any > HTTP server with an insecure POST handler through an Atom client. Using > POST for PaceServiceError is completely irresponsible. Ok, I think, after 6 or 7 follow-ups I think I finally see a problem. Here is a scenario: Malicious user X produces an Atom feed served with an X-Atom-Error header. Malicious user X could change their X-Atom-Error header to point to someone elses URI (it could be /their/ Error URI or it could be a completely different service). Either way Malicious user X then intentionally forces their Atom feed to be invalid, thus causing all the subscribers to X Atom's feed to hit that unrelated service. Am I understanding the scenario correctly? > > > inventing new HTTP verbs is really questionable. > > That's the subtext of all the arguments for POST, I think. No, the subtext was you didn't explain yourself very well. > Unfortunately, it's not really backed by anything other than religion. > It's also humorous to me that most of the people who feel that way have > no problem with inventing new verbs by extending HTTP with custom headers. > > Robert Sayre -joe -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 11:27:35 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA06846 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:27:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4GK9Eh026918; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:20:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4GK9dX026917; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:20:09 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [10.20.30.249] (dsl2-63-249-109-3.cruzio.com [63.249.109.3]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4GK6uk026878; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:20:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20041104151154.0859a910@localhost> References: <41842242.5050305@franklinmint.fm> <418571C8.1080008@franklinmint.fm> <6.0.0.20.2.20041104151154.0859a910@localhost> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:38:08 -0800 To: Martin Duerst , Atom WG From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: reject PaceErrVerb, and maybe PaceServiceError, too Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At 3:12 PM +0900 11/4/04, Martin Duerst wrote: >At 14:05 04/11/04, Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: >> >>At 6:14 PM -0500 10/31/04, Robert Sayre wrote: >>>Close PaceErrVerb. It's a nice idea that will never get done in >>>this WG, if it's even possible at all. >> >>Agree. If it should be done, it should be done in the W3C, > >Why? HTTP is defined by the IETF, not the W3C (although the W3C >helped quite a bit). HTTP *was* defined by the IETF, but the vast majority of operational HTTP experience is now in the W3C, I believe. Regardless of that, PaceErrVerb is really an HTTP-wide change, and shouldn't be done in the Atompub WG. If the IETF thinks it's a good idea to do a major change to HTTP, that's great. PaceServiceError will give some good grist for how to do it and what to expect. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 11:29:15 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA07047 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:29:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4GLT9k027465; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:21:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4GLTCl027464; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:21:29 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.197]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4GLTcW027458 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:21:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so39144rnz for ; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 08:21:20 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=NXig9VaO5PKgFJqDYFZexFF5yb2hqIIfpJU6zgafOnIEm1m8oeK7Tlapma5b06gFrXDwQkRFsm6CJDi8WVkx/RYTlP2lKlzRqvK1auwhpH3bWiLxXZZQ8aQ0UZquTBM7YJ+BLSUemn1CYMwpV/ytvyc4R+R0grUY+2U2Z0eb4a8= Received: by 10.38.10.72 with SMTP id 72mr360368rnj; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 08:21:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:21:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0411040821795da121@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:21:20 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: mint@franklinmint.fm Subject: Re: PaceServiceError Cc: Tim Bray , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <418A4AB1.20904@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> <3B916024-2E75-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A4AB1.20904@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:28:49 -0500, Robert Sayre wrote: Personally I'm still unsure how ERROR would be any less responsible than using POST, but even if I were convinced, then there are still other issues. > > inventing new HTTP verbs is really questionable. > > That's the subtext of all the arguments for POST, I think. > Unfortunately, it's not really backed by anything other than religion. Religion isn't idempotent. The more people follow the religion, the less the chance of your (heretical) suggestions being accepted. The orthodoxy at the moment is that adding HTTP verbs is a bad idea. Whether this underlying belief is true or not, it renders it virtually impossible to add HTTP verbs across the board (c.f. URIQA). A more immediate problem is the need to make modifications at the HTTP layer. That has practical implications, in particular as regards who will be *able* to implement. > It's also humorous to me that most of the people who feel that way have > no problem with inventing new verbs by extending HTTP with custom headers. Hmm, arguably the custom headers act more like adverbs or adjectives, but there are admittedly similar implementation issues. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 11:36:43 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA07649 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:36:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4GThPn029916; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:29:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4GThvM029915; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:29:43 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bork.markbaker.ca (static-80-155.dsl.cuic.ca [216.126.80.155] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4GTgLj029884 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:29:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from distobj@acm.org) Received: from mbaker by bork.markbaker.ca with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CPkWa-0002xn-00 for ; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:31:48 -0500 Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:31:48 -0500 To: Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceServiceError Message-ID: <20041104163148.GJ30868@markbaker.ca> References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: Mark Baker Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: FWIW, I'll just repeat my previous statement about these error specs. IMO, the issue is that the whole concept of farming out functionality to untrusted parties for tests that need to be trusted (i.e. done by the publishing tool itself), is fundamentally flawed. Nobody will use it. -1 to both error paces. Also FWIW, in case one does go through, I'd normally suggest just using POST, but if it's the case that Atom resources which already accept POST also need to be able to accept error reports, then due to a deficiency in HTTP (lack of mandatory extensions, and the lack of a standard means for declaring extended intentions), I consider ERR/ERROR a reasonable option. Mark. -- Mark Baker. Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA. http://www.markbaker.ca From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 11:39:31 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA07819 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:39:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4GWXr5031516; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:32:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4GWXQq031515; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:32:33 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4GWWkI031509 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:32:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4GWYui002641 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:32:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe7 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6N00GWOXYALM@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 09:32:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.204.150]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6N003IQXY98Q@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 09:32:34 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 08:32:30 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: PaceServiceError In-reply-to: <3f1451f504110408003e43e8f8@mail.gmail.com> To: Joe Gregorio Cc: mint@franklinmint.fm, Atom WG Message-id: <1F90B1C6-2E7F-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> <3B916024-2E75-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A4AB1.20904@franklinmint.fm> <3f1451f504110408003e43e8f8@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 4, 2004, at 8:00 AM, Joe Gregorio wrote: > Malicious user X produces an Atom feed served with an > X-Atom-Error header. > > Malicious user X could change their X-Atom-Error header to point > to someone elses URI (it could be /their/ Error URI or it could > be a completely different service). Either way Malicious user > X then intentionally forces their Atom feed to be invalid, thus > causing all the subscribers to X Atom's feed to hit that > unrelated service. Of course, for this to work, Mr. Malicious has to have built up enough subscribers to his feed to cause a problem. And in this case, he would quickly be caught, it would be totally traceable. Consider the case of my feed, with maybe 10,000 subscribers of whom more are coming through Bloglines all the time. How much main could I inflict? Quite a lot actually, if I put my mind to it, but not by Atom ServiceError hacking. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 11:41:02 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA08048 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:41:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4GTjV3029929; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:29:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4GTjxJ029928; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:29:45 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail04.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail04.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA4GTir3029889 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:29:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 91057 messnum 5052169 invoked from network[62.77.172.85/62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net]); 4 Nov 2004 16:29:42 -0000 Received: from 62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net (HELO ?200.200.200.35?) (62.77.172.85) by mail04.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 91057) with SMTP; 4 Nov 2004 16:29:42 -0000 Message-ID: <418A58EE.1050100@dehora.net> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 16:29:34 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8a1) Gecko/20040520 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceServiceError References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> <3B916024-2E75-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A4AB1.20904@franklinmint.fm> In-Reply-To: <418A4AB1.20904@franklinmint.fm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Sayre wrote: > > Tim Bray wrote: > > That's the subtext of all the arguments for POST, I think. > Unfortunately, it's not really backed by anything other than religion. Not true, Robert. In this case, the argument presented for ERR hasn't be compelling enough, technically or otherwise. Stepping back a bit, I see nothing that requires us to spec out a new HTTP method for such a feature. I do believe we're making things hard for ourselves for little benefit. > It's also humorous to me that most of the people who feel that way have > no problem with inventing new verbs by extending HTTP with custom headers. On the whole I don't think it's up to me to be convincing people who want new verbs against them - that's backways. Also (and this is *not* directed at you Robert), arguing that a verb is generic because the HTTP responses to the fact of it not generally being deployed are uniform is certainly incoherent and very probably specious. I won't be going down that particular rathole again. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 11:41:12 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA08101 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:41:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4GUh5W030314; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:30:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4GUhpu030309; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:30:43 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA4GUfrv030220 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:30:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian.reschke@gmx.de) Received: (qmail 31729 invoked by uid 65534); 4 Nov 2004 16:30:37 -0000 Received: from mail.greenbytes.de (EHLO [192.168.1.15]) (217.5.201.10) by mail.gmx.net (mp014) with SMTP; 04 Nov 2004 17:30:37 +0100 X-Authenticated: #1915285 Message-ID: <418A591B.5030902@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 17:30:19 +0100 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Hoffman / IMC CC: Atom WG Subject: Re: reject PaceErrVerb, and maybe PaceServiceError, too References: <41842242.5050305@franklinmint.fm> <418571C8.1080008@franklinmint.fm> <6.0.0.20.2.20041104151154.0859a910@localhost> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: > ... > HTTP *was* defined by the IETF, but the vast majority of operational > HTTP experience is now in the W3C, I believe. Most if not all specs that extend HTTP seem to come out of the IETF, though. > Regardless of that, PaceErrVerb is really an HTTP-wide change, and > shouldn't be done in the Atompub WG. If the IETF thinks it's a good idea > to do a major change to HTTP, that's great. PaceServiceError will give > some good grist for how to do it and what to expect. Defining a new HTTP method isn't a major change to HTTP -- HTTP is designed to allow extensibility (see ). I *do* agree that *if* a new method is being defined, it should be done in a way so that it is useful outside the Atom context. Best regards, Julian -- bytes GmbH -- http://www.greenbytes.de -- tel:+492512807760 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 11:53:36 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA09438 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:53:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4GkVYu037870; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:46:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4GkV4Z037869; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:46:31 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40810.mail.yahoo.com (web40810.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.78.187]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA4GkUFS037803 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:46:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 33866 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Nov 2004 16:46:28 -0000 Message-ID: <20041104164628.33864.qmail@web40810.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.18.132.123] by web40810.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 08:46:28 PST Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:46:28 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: PaceServiceError To: mint@franklinmint.fm Cc: Graham , Tim Bray , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <418A44E8.4090101@franklinmint.fm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --- Robert Sayre wrote: > > Cross-site scripting would be a good one. > > 1.) Evil person finds naive PHP script out there on > the net. > 2.) Evil person manipulates honest clients into > POSTing to it by giving > them bogus XML. > 3.) PHP script bombarded with POSTs from random > clients. Using a new > verb makes it likely that a 405 would result. > > Also, I'd like to note that the Pace doesn't say > anything about a body > for the request. It's just a hit counter. So let me get this straight. Some cracker hacks a high traffic site such as http://www.slashdot.org, borks their feed and alters their Atom-Error header to point to some site he doesn't like. Your argument is that it will be less load on the site to reject ERROR requests than to process then reject POST requests. That's like arguing that getting hit by a truck going 60MPH is worse than getting hit by a car going 60MPH. In the long run you still end up dead. If anything your are making a good argument against PaceServiceError as a whole not whether the HTTP method should be POST or some brand new ERROR method. ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 12:01:25 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA09991 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:01:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4Gsemh041280; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:54:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4Gsedk041279; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:54:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4Gsefp041265 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:54:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPksf-0007zZ-Cx; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 16:54:37 +0000 Message-ID: <418A5ECE.5030000@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:54:38 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dare Obasanjo CC: Graham , Tim Bray , Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceServiceError References: <20041104164628.33864.qmail@web40810.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041104164628.33864.qmail@web40810.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dare Obasanjo wrote: > So let me get this straight. > > Some cracker hacks a high traffic site such as > http://www.slashdot.org, borks their feed and alters > their Atom-Error header to point to some site he > doesn't like. Your argument is that it will be less > load on the site to reject ERROR requests than to > process then reject POST requests. No, that's not my argument, but yes, it would be, if the resource accepts POSTs for other reasons. You have no idea what POST does on a given URI. It's not a question of traffic, it's a question of whether a random POST handler results in state changes that depend on the number of times it's been hit. Since the semantics of POST are application-specific (which is fine, IMHO), the POST handler could be doing something irreversible, like sending email or firing missiles. The request in PaceServiceError is idempotent. It doesn't need to be a high-traffic site at all. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 12:13:33 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA12468 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:13:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4H7TwG046636; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:07:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4H7Sbx046635; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:07:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4H7SAa046625 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:07:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPl55-00008Z-Mf; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 17:07:27 +0000 Message-ID: <418A61CB.9090006@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 12:07:23 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= CC: Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceServiceError References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> <3B916024-2E75-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A4AB1.20904@franklinmint.fm> <418A58EE.1050100@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: <418A58EE.1050100@dehora.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill de hÓra wrote: > > Not true, Robert. In this case, the argument presented for ERR hasn't be > compelling enough, technically or otherwise. The request in PaceServiceError must be idempotent. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 12:13:34 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA12483 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:13:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4H6LhP046265; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:06:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4H6LxI046264; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:06:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail04.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail04.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA4H6Kq6046217 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:06:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 25090 messnum 5048627 invoked from network[62.77.172.85/62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net]); 4 Nov 2004 17:06:18 -0000 Received: from 62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net (HELO ?200.200.200.35?) (62.77.172.85) by mail04.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 25090) with SMTP; 4 Nov 2004 17:06:18 -0000 Message-ID: <418A6182.6020106@dehora.net> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 17:06:10 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8a1) Gecko/20040520 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom WG Subject: Re: reject PaceErrVerb, and maybe PaceServiceError, too References: <41842242.5050305@franklinmint.fm> <418571C8.1080008@franklinmint.fm> <6.0.0.20.2.20041104151154.0859a910@localhost> <418A591B.5030902@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <418A591B.5030902@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Julian Reschke wrote: > Defining a new HTTP method isn't a major change to HTTP -- I think Danny was thinking about the implementation and deployment aspects rather than the protcol itself. > HTTP is > designed to allow extensibility (see > ). I *do* agree > that *if* a new method is being defined, it should be done in a way so > that it is useful outside the Atom context. I agree with this. Also I don't think ERR is general enough ie INFO WARN ... ERR seems to be a special case of notification, cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 12:19:37 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA12947 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:19:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4HCswa049724; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:12:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4HCssD049723; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:12:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA4HCql2049636 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:12:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian.reschke@gmx.de) Received: (qmail 22381 invoked by uid 65534); 4 Nov 2004 17:12:50 -0000 Received: from mail.greenbytes.de (EHLO [192.168.1.15]) (217.5.201.10) by mail.gmx.net (mp022) with SMTP; 04 Nov 2004 18:12:50 +0100 X-Authenticated: #1915285 Message-ID: <418A630E.1020108@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 18:12:46 +0100 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= CC: Atom WG Subject: Re: reject PaceErrVerb, and maybe PaceServiceError, too References: <41842242.5050305@franklinmint.fm> <418571C8.1080008@franklinmint.fm> <6.0.0.20.2.20041104151154.0859a910@localhost> <418A591B.5030902@gmx.de> <418A6182.6020106@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: <418A6182.6020106@dehora.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill de hÓra wrote: > > Julian Reschke wrote: > > >> Defining a new HTTP method isn't a major change to HTTP -- > > > I think Danny was thinking about the implementation and deployment > aspects rather than the protcol itself. > ... Well, a trivial way to support ERR is not to implement it at all (you can then just use your server logs to check for problems). Best regards, Julian -- bytes GmbH -- http://www.greenbytes.de -- tel:+492512807760 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 12:55:49 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA16069 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:55:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4Hfpx8063776; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:41:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4HfpbC063775; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:41:51 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail08.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail08.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.24]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA4Hfo08063714 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:41:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 77961 messnum 3866666 invoked from network[62.77.172.85/62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net]); 4 Nov 2004 17:41:48 -0000 Received: from 62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net (HELO ?200.200.200.35?) (62.77.172.85) by mail08.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 77961) with SMTP; 4 Nov 2004 17:41:48 -0000 Message-ID: <418A69D5.2060701@dehora.net> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 17:41:41 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8a1) Gecko/20040520 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom WG Subject: Re: reject PaceErrVerb, and maybe PaceServiceError, too References: <41842242.5050305@franklinmint.fm> <418571C8.1080008@franklinmint.fm> <6.0.0.20.2.20041104151154.0859a910@localhost> <418A591B.5030902@gmx.de> <418A6182.6020106@dehora.net> <418A630E.1020108@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <418A630E.1020108@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Julian Reschke wrote: > Well, a trivial way to support ERR is not to implement it at all (you > can then just use your server logs to check for problems). I guess we're done then. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 13:01:04 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA16498 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:01:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4HscSv068283; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:54:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4HscvQ068282; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:54:38 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4HsbrI068268 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:54:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPloj-0002P8-Hw; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 17:54:37 +0000 Message-ID: <418A6CDE.901@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 12:54:38 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= CC: Atom WG Subject: Re: reject PaceErrVerb, and maybe PaceServiceError, too References: <41842242.5050305@franklinmint.fm> <418571C8.1080008@franklinmint.fm> <6.0.0.20.2.20041104151154.0859a910@localhost> <418A591B.5030902@gmx.de> <418A6182.6020106@dehora.net> <418A630E.1020108@gmx.de> <418A69D5.2060701@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: <418A69D5.2060701@dehora.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill de hÓra wrote: > > Julian Reschke wrote: > >> Well, a trivial way to support ERR is not to implement it at all (you >> can then just use your server logs to check for problems). > That's totally inappropriate. The Pace requires support for the method. If a server hasn't implemented a method, the correct response is 501. That said, supporting the Pace is trivial. All you have to do is send a 204 back to the client. > > I guess we're done then. No, we were done when people insisted on using POST for an idempotent operation because of NewMethodPhobia. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 13:17:36 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA18110 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:17:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4IAqhc073313; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:10:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4IAq8h073312; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:10:52 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4IApw8073306 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:10:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPm4R-00035l-85; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 18:10:51 +0000 Message-ID: <418A70AC.3000401@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 13:10:52 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Walter Underwood CC: Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceServiceError References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> <116DF74EBCE83E0C33D0C88B@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <116DF74EBCE83E0C33D0C88B@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm -1,000,000 on using POST for this feature. Too bad, but since Atom is so open I'm free to try it without the approval of this WG. Walter Underwood wrote: > > I strongly favor POST over a new HTTP method. Post has existing > semantics and parameter-passing formats. POST doesn't have any semantics. It's application specific. The protocol even uses POST to DELETE in the SOAP part. > Relying on those makes > our spec smaller and implementations easier. New methods aren't hard to do. This is just FUD. > Defining those anew > for Atom makes the spec bigger and implementations harder. > No, it makes this feature insecure and opaque. > POST should also make QA and load testing easier. Anybody got a > load tester that already implements ERROR? Writing a switch statement at the method level is harder than writing a switch statement to figure out what POST *really* means? Nah. Who in the world would use a load tester that doesn't let you configure every aspect of the request. How else will you know how your server reacts to methods it doesn't support? Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 13:20:44 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA18498 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:20:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4IEwU7074563; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:14:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4IEwe7074562; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:14:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4IEvdT074548 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:14:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPm8O-0003EJ-4o; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 18:14:56 +0000 Message-ID: <418A71A1.9020305@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 13:14:57 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham CC: Dare Obasanjo , Tim Bray , Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceServiceError References: <20041104164628.33864.qmail@web40810.mail.yahoo.com> <418A5ECE.5030000@franklinmint.fm> <76A3D058-2E8B-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <76A3D058-2E8B-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > On 4 Nov 2004, at 4:54 pm, Robert Sayre wrote: > >> You have no idea what POST does on a given URI. It's not a question of >> traffic, it's a question of whether a random POST handler results in >> state changes that depend on the number of times it's been hit. Since >> the semantics of POST are application-specific (which is fine, IMHO), >> the POST handler could be doing something irreversible, like sending >> email or firing missiles. The request in PaceServiceError is idempotent. > > > "Firing missiles" > > No way is posting an Atom Error going to cause anything worse than an > invalid arguments type response page. You are mental Mr Sayre. > I may be mental, but it would also be mental to claim to know the security level of every post handler out there. Nobody seems to grasp the security implications of this feature anyway, so I doubt it will be implemented well. Let's just drop it. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 13:22:26 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA18597 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:22:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4ICKDp073907; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:12:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4ICKFg073906; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:12:20 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4ICJQM073886 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:12:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA4I2mTO000753; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:02:49 GMT In-Reply-To: <418A5ECE.5030000@franklinmint.fm> References: <20041104164628.33864.qmail@web40810.mail.yahoo.com> <418A5ECE.5030000@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-22-1024966760; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <76A3D058-2E8B-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Cc: Dare Obasanjo , Tim Bray , Atom WG From: Graham Subject: Re: PaceServiceError Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:00:50 +0000 To: mint@franklinmint.fm X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-22-1024966760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 4 Nov 2004, at 4:54 pm, Robert Sayre wrote: > You have no idea what POST does on a given URI. It's not a question of > traffic, it's a question of whether a random POST handler results in > state changes that depend on the number of times it's been hit. Since > the semantics of POST are application-specific (which is fine, IMHO), > the POST handler could be doing something irreversible, like sending > email or firing missiles. The request in PaceServiceError is > idempotent. "Firing missiles" No way is posting an Atom Error going to cause anything worse than an invalid arguments type response page. You are mental Mr Sayre. Graham --Apple-Mail-22-1024966760 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMTA0MTgwMDUxWjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUgk/bDby60ds5Q2WDyzZJLY5K Y+8weAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEAkPoqyVrLxppceqb6N69Ry+H3 y6J9egnridqipTCH+IwZ9b5o+/sLS2bX9BFMS4pqCJZDx5rEydbFTwPHEim1nSnV38WrW03cPsB/ ICT+W3rngp+SuR1UNS74zuOZkzfm1lVudJ6G07r4h8mdk++1kPKiWfidWGaBzq9HkqV0+mIOne0a GcYzHO0Ue+IclRyfThiIk+hCFO4XuVXXZZQSLTtlSD//Jq9g97xhxhv4UO25P1mWXiwpu+WKB6qL jJMApzYVqMkos2Reoy07FHz5uUX8vaKSLmcgzmWCmZR+ziS0bQY4qGSyFTh4/cM4LTWFkN4NsHq8 zMlH0QxmRnlnOwAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-22-1024966760-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 13:33:35 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA19831 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:33:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4IR3xE078689; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:27:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4IR3t1078688; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:27:03 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail07.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail07.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA4IR27G078643 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:27:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 84740 messnum 2824675 invoked from network[62.77.172.85/62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net]); 4 Nov 2004 18:27:00 -0000 Received: from 62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net (HELO ?200.200.200.35?) (62.77.172.85) by mail07.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 84740) with SMTP; 4 Nov 2004 18:27:00 -0000 Message-ID: <418A746C.9020704@dehora.net> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 18:26:52 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8a1) Gecko/20040520 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom WG Subject: Re: reject PaceErrVerb, and maybe PaceServiceError, too References: <41842242.5050305@franklinmint.fm> <418571C8.1080008@franklinmint.fm> <6.0.0.20.2.20041104151154.0859a910@localhost> <418A591B.5030902@gmx.de> <418A6182.6020106@dehora.net> <418A630E.1020108@gmx.de> <418A69D5.2060701@dehora.net> <418A6CDE.901@franklinmint.fm> In-Reply-To: <418A6CDE.901@franklinmint.fm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Robert Sayre wrote: > Bill de hÓra wrote: > >> >> Julian Reschke wrote: > The Pace requires support for the method. If a server hasn't implemented > a method, the correct response is 501. That said, supporting the Pace is > trivial. All you have to do is send a 204 back to the client. > >> >> I guess we're done then. > > No, we were done when people insisted on using POST for an idempotent > operation because of NewMethodPhobia. I was kidding. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 13:47:50 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA20959 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:47:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4IfbX6083901; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:41:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4IfbT2083900; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:41:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [10.20.30.249] (dsl2-63-249-109-3.cruzio.com [63.249.109.3]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4Ifa76083892 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:41:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:40:04 -0800 To: Atom WG From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Observations on the "error" discussion Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Wearing my "I am not an implementor" hat: 1) Most people seem to like the idea of an Atom error reporting facility, although some don't because they think it will never get used. 2) It is not clear whether or not this should be Atom-specific. Even the erstwhile W3C liaison to the IETF suggests that maybe the IETF making a generic change to HTTP for all error reporting is OK. 3) The reasons for wanting to reuse POST or invent a new verb are deeply religious, where "religion" is defined as a mixture of "my family has always done it this way", "bad things just might happen if you do it a different way", and "I'll ignore the fact that the other way has worked just fine in different environments". That certainly resembles how religion (and national politics...) works where I'm from. Wearing my co-chair hat: Given the vehemence of the arguments of the last day, I propose that consensus on *how* to do error reporting is not possible in the short term. Feel free to argue the "new verb" question ad nauseam (minus the pre-adolescent comments like calling people "mental"), but maybe don't expect your arguments to settle anything right now. And there are other open issues in the work rotation. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 13:50:24 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA21225 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:50:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4IhKkV084559; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:43:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4IhKmV084556; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:43:20 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4IhJQ2084546 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:43:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so43323rns for ; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:43:19 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=oUn2TeEaCfiyU+lh8slR40kX6E5zQLaJQZqWe+ACa2qxbwDkFdc3PuxVRJWxQf8WVshv1/onnnlnrxtw7WjHDYBz0F3cIehOVtsgap2gqiFNkUu8Ua9WHWIhhPirxOg9s7aMIET8IAtf9zYJiRC92uS6OG/PX9EW+CgzdFlfAaw= Received: by 10.38.8.34 with SMTP id 34mr422876rnh; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:43:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:43:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0411041043581acbfc@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:43:19 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: mint@franklinmint.fm Subject: Re: PaceServiceError Cc: Graham , Dare Obasanjo , Tim Bray , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <418A71A1.9020305@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20041104164628.33864.qmail@web40810.mail.yahoo.com> <418A5ECE.5030000@franklinmint.fm> <76A3D058-2E8B-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <418A71A1.9020305@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 13:14:57 -0500, Robert Sayre wrote: > I may be mental, but it would also be mental to claim to know the > security level of every post handler out there. Nobody seems to grasp > the security implications of this feature anyway, so I doubt it will be > implemented well. Let's just drop it. We do know that feed quality is an issue with existing syndication systems. This feature may help. Why don't we try it provisionally in the next spec revision? If there are any technical difficulties or a missile crisis, we simply drop it again. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 13:52:28 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA21337 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:52:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4Iewut083590; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:40:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4IewgZ083589; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:40:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40808.mail.yahoo.com (web40808.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.78.185]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA4Iewap083535 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:40:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 45216 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Nov 2004 18:40:56 -0000 Message-ID: <20041104184056.45214.qmail@web40808.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.18.132.123] by web40808.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:40:56 PST Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:40:56 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: PaceServiceError To: mint@franklinmint.fm, Graham Cc: Tim Bray , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <418A71A1.9020305@franklinmint.fm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --- Robert Sayre wrote: > > I may be mental, but it would also be mental to > claim to know the > security level of every post handler out there. > Nobody seems to grasp > the security implications of this feature anyway, so > I doubt it will be > implemented well. Let's just drop it. I wonder what you're going to argue next. Maybe it'll be the fact that a malicious Atom server can use existing HTTP redirect responses to send clients to other sites and invoke URIs that have side effects. Oh my God!!! What do we do??? We must abandon HTTP... ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 13:57:02 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA21751 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:57:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4IpAsL088103; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:51:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4IpA7h088102; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:51:10 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4Ip9ar088094 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:51:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPmhQ-0004yu-AA; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 18:51:08 +0000 Message-ID: <418A7A1C.10908@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 13:51:08 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dare Obasanjo CC: Graham , Tim Bray , Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceServiceError References: <20041104184056.45214.qmail@web40808.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041104184056.45214.qmail@web40808.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dare Obasanjo wrote: > > I wonder what you're going to argue next. Maybe it'll > be the fact that a malicious Atom server can use > existing HTTP redirect responses to send clients to > other sites and invoke URIs that have side effects. > > Oh my God!!! What do we do??? We must abandon HTTP... > You'll find that the common behavior for a redirect from a POST is to send a GET. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 13:58:13 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA21894 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:58:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4Ip6Ee088058; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:51:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4Ip6TL088057; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:51:06 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.192]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4Ip5PA088050 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:51:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so47769rnz for ; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:51:05 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=HgUJBlVJuR54/sK3p8XDxS7ClijmLzSoC+Rp6KIzr/vGO0kJ94z/9CmS4/mGXhZ4gKKSuszoAMy96Y16vNeSsQVkleuyHFz0DrZSPctHf1QJK2VJ5t88ls51vk4u40Cvpnup/JQaewJx7ssHSeuSzkonqpx1ToVnDCKb7P17orQ= Received: by 10.38.10.72 with SMTP id 72mr425670rnj; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:51:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:51:05 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0411041051edc0683@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:51:05 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= Subject: Re: reject PaceErrVerb, and maybe PaceServiceError, too Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: <418A6182.6020106@dehora.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <41842242.5050305@franklinmint.fm> <418571C8.1080008@franklinmint.fm> <6.0.0.20.2.20041104151154.0859a910@localhost> <418A591B.5030902@gmx.de> <418A6182.6020106@dehora.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iA4Ip5PA088051 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 17:06:10 +0000, Bill de hÓra wrote: > > Julian Reschke wrote: > > > Defining a new HTTP method isn't a major change to HTTP -- > > I think Danny was thinking about the implementation and deployment > aspects rather than the protcol itself. I don't think that was me, but I agree with the point. I haven't yet heard anything to convince me that a new method is needed, that adequate functionality for what Atom will use couldn't just as well be offered by POST. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 14:06:12 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA22686 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:06:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4Iw9pW090952; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:58:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4Iw9NF090951; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:58:09 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40810.mail.yahoo.com (web40810.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.78.187]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA4Iw916090907 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:58:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 49325 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Nov 2004 18:58:07 -0000 Message-ID: <20041104185807.49323.qmail@web40810.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.18.132.123] by web40810.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:58:07 PST Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:58:07 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: PaceServiceError To: mint@franklinmint.fm Cc: Graham , Tim Bray , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <418A7A1C.10908@franklinmint.fm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --- Robert Sayre wrote: > Dare Obasanjo wrote: > > > > > I wonder what you're going to argue next. Maybe > it'll > > be the fact that a malicious Atom server can use > > existing HTTP redirect responses to send clients > to > > other sites and invoke URIs that have side > effects. > > > > Oh my God!!! What do we do??? We must abandon > HTTP... > > > > You'll find that the common behavior for a redirect > from a POST is to > send a GET. You'll also find that it is common behavior for GET requests to have side effects. Even Bloglines so called RESTful API is full of GET requests that have side effects. ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 14:10:38 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA22998 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:10:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4J4LpU092614; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:04:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4J4LOd092613; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:04:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4J4K1i092607 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:04:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPmu9-0005bC-8u; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 19:04:17 +0000 Message-ID: <418A7D32.9020502@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 14:04:18 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dare Obasanjo CC: Graham , Tim Bray , Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceServiceError References: <20041104185807.49323.qmail@web40810.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041104185807.49323.qmail@web40810.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dare Obasanjo wrote: > > > You'll also find that it is common behavior for GET > requests to have side effects. Even Bloglines so > called RESTful API is full of GET requests that have > side effects. > I know. PaceServiceError used GET until last time we talked about it, when people wanted made all sorts of irrational arguments about GET. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 14:22:54 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA24184 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:22:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4JDL5D096221; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:13:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4JDLUJ096220; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:13:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.199]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4JDLh6096207 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:13:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so48986rnz for ; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:13:24 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=Czgg2qMR04F8MyPBFkxaWZMDprKVDJeYF3Q4GvQgFjt0T7g8plyBrJfKIec1y3qidlXsWaSmdYdmAtfXQ8C0eVDMxnvuDrJBspH3JjZ1gLLME+bTfV1F4TIkQnpcVMLY4xHt/KCS1BuD7P+5Ew527TZ884it6WeCzEN7B++AtOc= Received: by 10.38.8.9 with SMTP id 9mr422607rnh; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:13:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:13:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd041104111363609881@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 20:13:24 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: Observations on the "error" discussion Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Paul, Your summary of the situation seems reasonable. Most people to seem generally in favour of the idea, but the implementation is causing the heat. Much of the discussion has been along the lines of hypothetical "it will work/it won't work". If the Paces get dropped we'll never know. So why don't we set things up to try it? - both Paces accepted for next draft, with the proviso that it will be revisited after a reasonable trial period. (I personally believe PaceErrVerb to be unlikely to work, but am willing to be convinced). Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 14:42:40 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA26241 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:42:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4JXKBB004912; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:33:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4JXKAF004911; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:33:20 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.143.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4JXKlH004875 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:33:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13643A1 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:33:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.150.112] (diva.verity.com [192.168.150.112]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id iA4JXIKB020891 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:33:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:40:09 -0800 From: Walter Underwood To: Atom WG Subject: Re: Observations on the "error" discussion Message-ID: <9981361BB45395BDEBEDCFE2@diva.verity.com> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On Thursday, November 04, 2004 10:40:04 AM -0800 "Paul Hoffman / IMC" wrote: > > 1) Most people seem to like the idea of an Atom error reporting facility, > although some don't because they think it will never get used. I object for a different reason. It seems to me that it is trying to enable a social pressure on feeds that don't meet the standard. I think this is new ground for a protocol standard. Usually, implementation validation is a separate phase, and not part of normal operation. I know we are all really tired of busted HTML and XML, but this doesn't seem like it solves the problem. Getting rid of bad feeds requires publicising them, not telling the publisher (who might not care). It is important to be able to figure out the feed software and version, so we can say the AtomBrainCreature 13.1 is busted and get the word out. But that requires notifying the implementor, not the publisher. wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect Verity Ultraseek From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 15:00:59 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA27626 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:00:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4JqJ92013094; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:52:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4JqJpd013093; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:52:19 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4JqI3j013087 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:52:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4JqMNH027166 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:52:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6O003CR7792L@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 12:52:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6O00JYJ779GS@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 12:52:22 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:52:19 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: PaceServiceError In-reply-to: <418A70AC.3000401@franklinmint.fm> To: mint@franklinmint.fm Cc: Atom WG , Walter Underwood Message-id: <09100948-2E9B-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> <116DF74EBCE83E0C33D0C88B@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> <418A70AC.3000401@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 4, 2004, at 10:10 AM, Robert Sayre wrote: > > I'm -1,000,000 on using POST for this feature. Too bad, but since Atom > is so open I'm free to try it without the approval of this WG. Well, on reflection, it seems to me that, while I still don't believe that GRUMBLE really brings much of a security pay-off, on reflection it doesn't add any significant costs, so I can live with PaceServiceError as written. And I do think it would be a net plus for Atom to have a non-compulsory error-reporting built-in. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 15:24:39 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA00899 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:24:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4KGDhH023236; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:16:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4KGDuw023235; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:16:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4KGCQR023207 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:16:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from quark (58.80-202-95.nextgentel.com [80.202.95.58]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEB9732FD; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:17:00 +0100 (MET) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 21:17:53 +0100 To: "Joe Gregorio" Subject: Re: PaceServiceError Cc: Atom-Syntax References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> <3f1451f504110405201b45d62@mail.gmail.com> <418A2FCA.2010109@franklinmint.fm> <3f1451f5041104063044560b37@mail.gmail.com> <418A4057.9070003@franklinmint.fm> <3f1451f504110406586ad11fac@mail.gmail.com> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3f1451f504110406586ad11fac@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:58:45 -0500, Joe Gregorio wrote: > What exactly do you see as a problem with using POST and how does using > ERROR fix it? If you can't see the answer to this question, how come you can see it when replacing 'ERR' (not 'ERROR', imho) with 'PUT' or 'DELETE'? To be clear: How is PUT or DELETE more necessary than ERR for the given functionality they give? Why is it okay to squeeze ERR requests into POST, but not PUT or DELETE? -- Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- asbjornu@hotmail.com «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 15:34:16 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA01697 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:34:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4KNmlU026506; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:23:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4KNmEB026505; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:23:48 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [10.20.30.249] (dsl2-63-249-109-3.cruzio.com [63.249.109.3]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4KNiMW026477; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:23:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9981361BB45395BDEBEDCFE2@diva.verity.com> References: <9981361BB45395BDEBEDCFE2@diva.verity.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:23:46 -0800 To: Walter Underwood , Atom WG From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: Observations on the "error" discussion Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: [[ Now wearing my advocacy hat ]] At 11:40 AM -0800 11/4/04, Walter Underwood wrote: >--On Thursday, November 04, 2004 10:40:04 AM -0800 "Paul Hoffman / >IMC" wrote: >> >>1) Most people seem to like the idea of an Atom error reporting facility, >>although some don't because they think it will never get used. > >I object for a different reason. > >It seems to me that it is trying to enable a social pressure on feeds >that don't meet the standard. I think this is new ground for a protocol >standard. Usually, implementation validation is a separate phase, and not >part of normal operation. > >I know we are all really tired of busted HTML and XML, but this doesn't >seem like it solves the problem. Getting rid of bad feeds requires >publicising them, not telling the publisher (who might not care). I see a conflict between your first sentence ("It seems to...") and your last ("Getting rid of..."). >It is important to be able to figure out the feed software and version, >so we can say the AtomBrainCreature 13.1 is busted and get the word out. >But that requires notifying the implementor, not the publisher. Overall comments: I don't see reporting errors to the senders as enabling social pressure. To me, it is alerting senders that they software that they are using, which they probably didn't write (unless they are a subscription service), is emitting bad data. That gives the user a few options, such as alert the vendor, change software, and so on. It *is* new ground, and I think it's good new ground. It lets Atom emitters know whether or not they are being good Atom citizens. It (hopefully) cleans things up early so that reader vendors have fewer features that they need to be bug-compatible with. Those are very positive, I think. If the Atom emitter doesn't care, it is trivial for them not to listen, and trivial for them not even to tell receivers how to tell them something they aren't going to listen to. If they do care, even mildly, having a standard way of hearing about the errors is good. It will certainly make tech support for the developers of emitter software easier. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 15:50:30 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA03584 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:50:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4KesxN032761; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:40:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4KesP9032759; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:40:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4KerZp032724 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:40:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 55so9456wri for ; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 12:40:50 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=sBbpvq6ORLzduvxstlBdzGurZ1FqBgfA+molycAVDebOYNStVwqdqFPrVn7D03Je4YjQy/qTULzIQujmZd96IRJ62Ioq6bySMV6rTZKOe8nXd+J2ceUA/vKbz/moIxtlyCIhvkbjPO6tx2UzlzvbKxLfW/QNBS9WPLlK7+sTI2A= Received: by 10.38.218.39 with SMTP id q39mr15273rng; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 12:40:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.151.28 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:40:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3f1451f504110412403d7eab1b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:40:50 -0500 From: Joe Gregorio Reply-To: Joe Gregorio To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Subject: Re: PaceServiceError Cc: Atom-Syntax In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> <3f1451f504110405201b45d62@mail.gmail.com> <418A2FCA.2010109@franklinmint.fm> <3f1451f5041104063044560b37@mail.gmail.com> <418A4057.9070003@franklinmint.fm> <3f1451f504110406586ad11fac@mail.gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iA4KerZp032741 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 21:17:53 +0100, Asbjørn Ulsberg wrote: > On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:58:45 -0500, Joe Gregorio > wrote: > > > What exactly do you see as a problem with using POST and how does using > > ERROR fix it? > > If you can't see the answer to this question, how come you can see it when > replacing 'ERR' (not 'ERROR', imho) with 'PUT' or 'DELETE'? Could you please stop getting your knickers in twist and just answer the question. I am asking a simple question in that I don't yet fully understand the point Robert is trying to make. If you feel you can do a better job please jump right in. -joe From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 15:53:37 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA03779 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:53:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4Khwte033968; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:43:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4KhwBU033966; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:43:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4KhwgP033924 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:43:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from quark (58.80-202-95.nextgentel.com [80.202.95.58]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C8E4317F; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:44:47 +0100 (MET) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 21:45:40 +0100 To: "Walter Underwood" Subject: Re: Observations on the "error" discussion Cc: Atom-Syntax References: <9981361BB45395BDEBEDCFE2@diva.verity.com> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9981361BB45395BDEBEDCFE2@diva.verity.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:40:09 -0800, Walter Underwood wrote: > I know we are all really tired of busted HTML and XML, but this doesn't > seem like it solves the problem. Getting rid of bad feeds requires > publicising them, not telling the publisher (who might not care). Telling the publisher would probably help in 50% of the cases. Maybe more. However, the actual number of cases it helps in isn't essential. What is essential is that it helps. Having 100% wellformed and valid producing systems would of course be best, but until we have that, we need to take other measures to fix the situation. Maybe even Six Apart can implement the error mechanism into Movable Type so that ERR requests are routed to them after a local analysis, so they can improve their tool centrally. None of this is possible without an ERR mechanism. We could of course just continue down the endless road of lobbying for better tools, but until we reach the end of that road (which we never will), all other paths are worth exploring. > It is important to be able to figure out the feed software and version, > so we can say the AtomBrainCreature 13.1 is busted and get the word out. Do you take the responsibility to publish this information centrally somewhere? Or do you want an automated mechanism that sends some sort of error report directly to the software vendor? > But that requires notifying the implementor, not the publisher. We need to notify both, but first and foremost the publisher -- it's his feed that's broken. -- Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- asbjornu@hotmail.com «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 15:56:18 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA03975 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:56:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4KkhYS035134; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:46:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4Kkh3T035133; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:46:43 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4Kkhu6035068; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:46:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from quark (58.80-202-95.nextgentel.com [80.202.95.58]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5EC23043; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:47:31 +0100 (MET) To: "Paul Hoffman / IMC" Cc: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: Consensus probe on PaceUpdatedDefinition References: Message-ID: From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 21:48:24 +0100 In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:23:06 -0800, Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: > A) I'm fine/OK with the exact new wording in the Pace. I like the new wording better than the one that's in the current specification. +1 to A), iow. -- Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- asbjornu@hotmail.com «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 15:56:54 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA04051 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:56:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4KoYQR036964; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:50:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4KoY0Q036963; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:50:34 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4KoYo8036881 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:50:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 57406 invoked by uid 17064); 4 Nov 2004 20:50:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.20]) ([83.112.136.200]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 4 Nov 2004 20:50:29 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: <09100948-2E9B-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> <116DF74EBCE83E0C33D0C88B@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> <418A70AC.3000401@franklinmint.fm> <09100948-2E9B-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <262A7222-2EA3-11D9-B792-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceServiceError Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:50:23 +0100 To: Atom Syntax X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cool! :-) I have not been following this discussion for more than a few months, as I have been really busy with Atom-OWL. I thought it had died out completely. I am +1 on something like PaceServiceError, with the idea of turning it perhaps into an Internet Draft if that is possible. It seems to me to be a very generic HTTP addition that could well be of use all over the web. I would prefer the method to be called ERR or ERROR over GRUMBLE, because it is well understood in software engineering that functions can return error codes. Also I prefer the simplicity of ERRing the resource itself, and nothing else. That removes the need for an extra header for every response and really simplifies the mechanism of reporting the error: The client, in its error report, just needs to send back to the resource the exact same request it used in its GET, POST, PUT or DELETE, +perhaps some extra information such as the time of the original request and the method of the original request. I see that Atom could be fixing a very big problem on the web by demonstrating how this is done, especially if it does it in such a way that it is completely generic, and so easily added to every other web app out there. Henry Story On 4 Nov 2004, at 20:52, Tim Bray wrote: > > On Nov 4, 2004, at 10:10 AM, Robert Sayre wrote: > >> >> I'm -1,000,000 on using POST for this feature. Too bad, but since >> Atom is so open I'm free to try it without the approval of this WG. > > Well, on reflection, it seems to me that, while I still don't believe > that GRUMBLE really brings much of a security pay-off, on reflection > it doesn't add any significant costs, so I can live with > PaceServiceError as written. > > And I do think it would be a net plus for Atom to have a > non-compulsory error-reporting built-in. -Tim > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 16:16:38 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA06057 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:16:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4L3IAB042526; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:03:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4L3IgD042525; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:03:18 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4L3IDq042495 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:03:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPolF-0003k4-Ve; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 21:03:14 +0000 Message-ID: <418A9912.10802@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 16:03:14 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Gregorio CC: Tim Bray , Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceServiceError References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> <3B916024-2E75-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A4AB1.20904@franklinmint.fm> <3f1451f504110408003e43e8f8@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3f1451f504110408003e43e8f8@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Gregorio wrote: > > Ok, I think, after 6 or 7 follow-ups I think I finally see a problem. > Here is a scenario: > > Malicious user X produces an Atom feed served with an > X-Atom-Error header. > > Malicious user X could change their X-Atom-Error header to point > to someone elses URI (it could be /their/ Error URI or it could > be a completely different service). Either way Malicious user > X then intentionally forces their Atom feed to be invalid, thus > causing all the subscribers to X Atom's feed to hit that > unrelated service. > > Am I understanding the scenario correctly? > Yes, and the effect of hitting that unrelated service is unknowable. The operation must be idempotent to be implemented responsibly. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 16:48:56 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA09849 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:48:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4LaCJA055023; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:36:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4LaCZd055015; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:36:12 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.203]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4LaBfb054957 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:36:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so35789wri for ; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 13:36:04 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=X8VA0iNggjp45hiEgFkNcuPaVQDNnAYBIlBST/5+j4nInbPEfptctORV5KTi8lHslNQm36dC/L0CpAA4gDD87puuJd4aD4+gu+DjX2xk6QXGI8pPLnHA9mqqzOKEFxHmAOoTXaHS6jKCZJOa7s99bxeHGcnEbZH+3TbmzrN7c+E= Received: by 10.38.208.46 with SMTP id f46mr49007rng; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 13:36:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.151.28 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:36:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3f1451f504110413366ec57e3c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:36:04 -0500 From: Joe Gregorio Reply-To: Joe Gregorio To: mint@franklinmint.fm Subject: Re: PaceServiceError Cc: Tim Bray , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <418A9912.10802@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> <3B916024-2E75-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A4AB1.20904@franklinmint.fm> <3f1451f504110408003e43e8f8@mail.gmail.com> <418A9912.10802@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 16:03:14 -0500, Robert Sayre wrote: > Joe Gregorio wrote: > > > > Ok, I think, after 6 or 7 follow-ups I think I finally see a problem. > > Here is a scenario: > > > > Malicious user X produces an Atom feed served with an > > X-Atom-Error header. > > > > Malicious user X could change their X-Atom-Error header to point > > to someone elses URI (it could be /their/ Error URI or it could > > be a completely different service). Either way Malicious user > > X then intentionally forces their Atom feed to be invalid, thus > > causing all the subscribers to X Atom's feed to hit that > > unrelated service. > > > > Am I understanding the scenario correctly? > > > > Yes, and the effect of hitting that unrelated service is unknowable. The > operation must be idempotent to be implemented responsibly. Thank you. Now that I understand the point you are trying to make I agree that using POST for this is inappropriate. Actually, just a minor correction on your nomenclature, the term you should use is 'safe', not 'idempotent', when describing the effect: http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec9.html#sec9.1 I did read Tim Bray's response that it won't be that many hits and that the culprit would soon be found out, but that assumes a pretty dumb Malicious user X. What if the feed is only served intermittently with bad X-Atom-Error header? Or only served that way to certain aggregators? And don't tell me no one would ever do that, I've actually done something similar myself by serving a different RSS file based on the User Agent. Not for malicious reasons mind you, but it was very easy to do. You will note that it is still possible, if PaceSericeError is adopted today, that mischief will still be possible since I can still get *your* server to be pinged as having an invalid feed by *me* tweaking my X-Atom-Error header and then intentionally invalidating my own feed. What can we do? The only solution that I can see right now that avoids all of these problems is that the ERROR method be used and that it only be used on the URI of the feed itself. I.e. if you get any of the error conditions in the Pace then the client sends the ERROR method back to the URI from which is retrieved the Atom feed. Benefits: 1. Very simple. 2. Obviates the need for the X-Atom-Header completely. 3. Can't be used in any of the malicious ways outlined above. 4. Since we aren't worried about cross-site usage we can go back and add in a request body that describes the problem in more detail. Disadvantages: 1. A whole new method. 2. More difficult to implement on the server side depending on how your site is implemented. I.e. it /is/ possible to accept an ERROR method on a statically served file and redirect it to a CGI to handle the request, but that requires some mod_rewite magic in your .htaccess file. This is the only workable solution I can see right now that avoids the above problems. I hope someone else has a better idea because I'm not terribly fond of the idea based on the difficulty that may be faced in implementing it. Also, inventing new HTTP methods makes me slightly squeamish. If we do this then I think it should be written as an I-D outside of this WG. -joe -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 16:57:47 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA10729 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:57:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4LlYcn060248; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:47:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4LlYaB060247; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:47:34 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40827.mail.yahoo.com (web40827.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.92.74]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA4LlY8N060204 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:47:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 61858 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Nov 2004 21:47:31 -0000 Message-ID: <20041104214731.61856.qmail@web40827.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [131.107.71.224] by web40827.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 13:47:31 PST Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:47:31 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: PaceServiceError To: mint@franklinmint.fm, Joe Gregorio Cc: Tim Bray , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <418A9912.10802@franklinmint.fm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --- Robert Sayre wrote: > > > Here is a scenario: > > > > Malicious user X produces an Atom feed served with > an > > X-Atom-Error header. > > > > Malicious user X could change their X-Atom-Error > header to point > > to someone elses URI (it could be /their/ Error > URI or it could > > be a completely different service). Either way > Malicious user > > X then intentionally forces their Atom feed to be > invalid, thus > > causing all the subscribers to X Atom's feed to > hit that > > unrelated service. > > > > Am I understanding the scenario correctly? > > > > Yes, and the effect of hitting that unrelated > service is unknowable. The > operation must be idempotent to be implemented > responsibly. I'll note that there isn't much difference between this scenario and Malicious user X just issuing HTTP redirects to the unrelated service thus bypassing Atom-Error header which is less likely to be supported than HTTP redirects anyway. ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 17:00:44 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA11109 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:00:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4Lo6I8061411; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:50:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4Lo6ls061410; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:50:06 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4Lo5x9061400 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:50:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPpUb-0006ER-Q2; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 21:50:06 +0000 Message-ID: <418AA40F.40709@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 16:50:07 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Gregorio CC: Tim Bray , Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceServiceError References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> <3B916024-2E75-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A4AB1.20904@franklinmint.fm> <3f1451f504110408003e43e8f8@mail.gmail.com> <418A9912.10802@franklinmint.fm> <3f1451f504110413366ec57e3c@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3f1451f504110413366ec57e3c@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Gregorio wrote: > > Thank you. Now that I understand the point you are trying > to make I agree that using POST for this is inappropriate. > > Actually, just a minor correction on your nomenclature, > the term you should use is 'safe', not 'idempotent', when > describing the effect: > > http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec9.html#sec9.1 I understand the distinction very well. I wanted to use GET and was told that the method wasn't safe because it gives up too much information about the client. I say idempotent is important because you will get the same response no matter what, and no signal that any request was accepted or processed. > > You will note that it is still possible, if PaceSericeError > is adopted today, that mischief will still be possible > since I can still get *your* server to be pinged as having > an invalid feed by *me* tweaking my X-Atom-Error header > and then intentionally invalidating my own feed. > I don't follow your logic. I would just ignore hits from referrers I don't care about. > What can we do? > > The only solution that I can see right now that avoids all > of these problems is that the ERROR method be used > and that it only be used on the URI of the feed itself. > I.e. if you get any of the error conditions in the Pace > then the client sends the ERROR method back to the > URI from which is retrieved the Atom feed. Also, the utility of sending a request to the resource that's known to be busted could be nil. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 17:30:27 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA15071 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:30:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4MKwgj073591; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:20:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4MKwVK073590; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:20:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [10.20.30.249] (adsl-66-125-125-68.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [66.125.125.68]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4MKucw073581 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:20:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20041104214731.61856.qmail@web40827.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041104214731.61856.qmail@web40827.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:20:58 -0800 To: Atom WG From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: PaceServiceError Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At 1:47 PM -0800 11/4/04, Dare Obasanjo wrote: >I'll note that there isn't much difference between >this scenario and Malicious user X just issuing HTTP >redirects to the unrelated service thus bypassing >Atom-Error header which is less likely to be supported >than HTTP redirects anyway. I agree with Dare. A malicious feed emitter can do pretty much equivalent damage in many ways. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 17:39:58 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA16563 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:39:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4MVJTK076618; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:31:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4MVJi8076613; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:31:19 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4MVI6r076570 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:31:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from quark (58.80-202-95.nextgentel.com [80.202.95.58]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8A7E1513; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:32:07 +0100 (MET) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 23:33:32 +0100 To: mint@franklinmint.fm, "Joe Gregorio" Subject: Re: PaceServiceError Cc: "Tim Bray" , "Atom WG" References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> <3B916024-2E75-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A4AB1.20904@franklinmint.fm> <3f1451f504110408003e43e8f8@mail.gmail.com> <418A9912.10802@franklinmint.fm> <3f1451f504110413366ec57e3c@mail.gmail.com> <418AA40F.40709@franklinmint.fm> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <418AA40F.40709@franklinmint.fm> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 16:50:07 -0500, Robert Sayre wrote: > Also, the utility of sending a request to the resource that's known to > be busted could be nil. In some cases, yes. But just because i.e. the XML is ill-formed, that doesn't mean the script that serves the XML document is completely broken. Also, in many situations where the feeds are served dynamically, it's the same service that will receive the ERR as the one which is serving the feed. And since the service is the same, it doesn't matter whether you ERR the resource's URI or another one. It's simpler to just err the resource URI, though. Also, if the client don't receive an expected result from the ERRed resource, it can maybe fall back to another ErrorURI (if defined at several levels). Just an idea. -- Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- asbjornu@hotmail.com «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 17:42:30 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA17121 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:42:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4MLpPJ073734; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:21:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4MLpNh073733; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:21:51 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4MLoAI073711 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:21:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from quark (58.80-202-95.nextgentel.com [80.202.95.58]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id F07FA3EA2; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:22:39 +0100 (MET) To: "Joe Gregorio" , mint@franklinmint.fm Cc: "Tim Bray" , "Atom WG" Subject: Re: PaceServiceError References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> <3B916024-2E75-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A4AB1.20904@franklinmint.fm> <3f1451f504110408003e43e8f8@mail.gmail.com> <418A9912.10802@franklinmint.fm> <3f1451f504110413366ec57e3c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 23:24:05 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <3f1451f504110413366ec57e3c@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:36:04 -0500, Joe Gregorio wrote: > The only solution that I can see right now that avoids all > of these problems is that the ERROR method be used > and that it only be used on the URI of the feed itself. I've thought this is the best solution all along, so I'm needless to say; +1 on this. It would be nice to be able to ERR a different URI, though, since not all feeds are served by something that can do anything with an incoming ERR request but still would want to (e.g. static files). The general and recommended practice should be to ERR the erronous resource, but another mechanism should be available, imho. What we can do to restrict the usage on the ErrorURI is to say that it MUST be in the same domain as the erronous resource. If the domain in the URI of the 'X-Error-URI' header is different from the domain in the URI of the resource, the client MUST NOT do an ERR request to the URI. > If we do this then I think it should be written as an I-D > outside of this WG. I think so as well. -- Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- asbjornu@hotmail.com «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 17:52:35 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA18434 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:52:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4MeFFC080642; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:40:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4MeFWI080641; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:40:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4MeEO6080622; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:40:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPqH9-0000Hg-62; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 22:40:15 +0000 Message-ID: <418AAFD0.80203@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 17:40:16 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Hoffman / IMC CC: Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceServiceError References: <20041104214731.61856.qmail@web40827.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: > > At 1:47 PM -0800 11/4/04, Dare Obasanjo wrote: > >> I'll note that there isn't much difference between >> this scenario and Malicious user X just issuing HTTP >> redirects to the unrelated service thus bypassing >> Atom-Error header which is less likely to be supported >> than HTTP redirects anyway. > > > I agree with Dare. A malicious feed emitter can do pretty much > equivalent damage in many ways. I don't understand what Dare is saying. How do I get someone to send a POST with a redirect? Dare's response was that some GETs are unsafe... ok fine, but not really the same problem. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 18:30:25 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA22800 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:30:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4NJwg7094309; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:19:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4NJwVW094308; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:19:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4NJwQv094301 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:19:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 91575 invoked by uid 17064); 4 Nov 2004 23:20:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.136.200]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 4 Nov 2004 23:20:03 -0000 In-Reply-To: References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> <3B916024-2E75-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A4AB1.20904@franklinmint.fm> <3f1451f504110408003e43e8f8@mail.gmail.com> <418A9912.10802@franklinmint.fm> <3f1451f504110413366ec57e3c@mail.gmail.com> <418AA40F.40709@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: <0AB3747A-2EB8-11D9-B792-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceServiceError Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 00:19:57 +0100 To: Atom Syntax X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iA4NJwQv094302 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I also agree that the the following methods are probably quite compatible, and could each be used, in a certain default order perhaps: - A response header specifying the location of an error URI - ERRing the resource itself On 4 Nov 2004, at 23:33, Asbjørn Ulsberg wrote: > > On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 16:50:07 -0500, Robert Sayre > wrote: > >> Also, the utility of sending a request to the resource that's known >> to be busted could be nil. > > In some cases, yes. But just because i.e. the XML is ill-formed, that > doesn't mean the script that serves the XML document is completely > broken. I would like to add here that the fact that the resource may be broken won't stop the ERR message reaching the correct destination. It will probably rarely be the resource itself that deals with the ERR message itself. Currently if you send such a message to an Apache web server, it will simply log a message in its log file. Similarly a slightly more intelligent web service would be able to send the messages for specific groups of urls to log files readable by the owner of the resources. The ERR message is a flag that something is wrong with the resource. That can be useful information not just for the process that created the resource, but for all the caches along the way. It may be these caches after all that may have corrupted a perfectly good initial response. Automatically sending the response to some third URI is in that respect less RESTful. > > Also, in many situations where the feeds are served dynamically, it's > the same service that will receive the ERR as the one which is serving > the feed. And since the service is the same, it doesn't matter whether > you ERR the resource's URI or another one. It's simpler to just err > the resource URI, though. > > Also, if the client don't receive an expected result from the ERRed > resource, it can maybe fall back to another ErrorURI (if defined at > several levels). Just an idea. > > -- > Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- asbjornu@hotmail.com > «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» Henry > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 18:33:52 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA23227 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:33:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4NOE57095820; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:24:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4NOEet095819; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:24:14 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4NODvA095813 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:24:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 94287 invoked by uid 17064); 4 Nov 2004 23:24:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.136.200]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 4 Nov 2004 23:24:18 -0000 In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd0411041043581acbfc@mail.gmail.com> References: <20041104164628.33864.qmail@web40810.mail.yahoo.com> <418A5ECE.5030000@franklinmint.fm> <76A3D058-2E8B-11D9-9BE3-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <418A71A1.9020305@franklinmint.fm> <1f2ed5cd0411041043581acbfc@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Danny Ayers From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceServiceError Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 00:24:13 +0100 To: Atom Syntax X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +1 This will help us find out how well such a system works. It it does, it will help client writers and server writers tune their implementations more quickly. Henry On 4 Nov 2004, at 19:43, Danny Ayers wrote: > > On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 13:14:57 -0500, Robert Sayre > wrote: > >> I may be mental, but it would also be mental to claim to know the >> security level of every post handler out there. Nobody seems to grasp >> the security implications of this feature anyway, so I doubt it will >> be >> implemented well. Let's just drop it. > > We do know that feed quality is an issue with existing syndication > systems. This feature may help. Why don't we try it provisionally in > the next spec revision? If there are any technical difficulties or a > missile crisis, we simply drop it again. > > Cheers, > Danny. > > -- > > http://dannyayers.com > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 18:33:54 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA23250 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:33:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4NRNLr096937; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:27:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4NRNGZ096936; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:27:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40808.mail.yahoo.com (web40808.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.78.185]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA4NRNAR096871 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:27:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 76574 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Nov 2004 23:27:23 -0000 Message-ID: <20041104232723.76572.qmail@web40808.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [131.107.76.143] by web40808.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 15:27:23 PST Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:27:23 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: PaceServiceError To: mint@franklinmint.fm, Paul Hoffman / IMC Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: <418AAFD0.80203@franklinmint.fm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --- Robert Sayre wrote: > > I don't understand what Dare is saying. How do I get > someone to send a > POST with a redirect? Dare's response was that some > GETs are unsafe... > ok fine, but not really the same problem. Your argument is full of assumptions. (1) Sending GET requests to an arbitrary URI is much more dangerous than sending arbitrary POST requests. (2) Redirecting a POST request will mean that data won't get POSTed to the new URI. Please go read http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/www/post-redirect.html, HTTP specs just say the user must not be automatically redirected. I've seen the behavior of web browsers after redirection on a POST and this has never stopped me from sending the POST message. Basically I think you've unhealthily fixated on this "problem" when worse problems exist with the entire usage of XML over HTTP for delivering Atom feeds. ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 18:36:26 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA23401 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:36:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4NSfVs097433; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:28:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4NSfuQ097432; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:28:41 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40805.mail.yahoo.com (web40805.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.78.182]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA4NSe3D097393 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:28:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 78136 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Nov 2004 23:28:40 -0000 Message-ID: <20041104232840.78134.qmail@web40805.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [131.107.76.154] by web40805.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 15:28:40 PST Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:28:40 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: PaceServiceError To: mint@franklinmint.fm, Paul Hoffman / IMC Cc: Atom WG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --- Dare Obasanjo wrote: > > > (1) Sending GET requests to an arbitrary URI is much > more dangerous than sending arbitrary POST requests. *sigh* This should read "Sending POST requests to an arbitrary URI is much more dangerous than sending arbitrary GETT requests" ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 18:52:50 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA24564 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:52:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4NdoKU001644; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:39:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA4NdoVS001643; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:39:50 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA4NdnbJ001628; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:39:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPrCo-0003LG-IP; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 23:39:50 +0000 Message-ID: <418ABDC6.6020102@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 18:39:50 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dare Obasanjo CC: Paul Hoffman / IMC , Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceServiceError References: <20041104232723.76572.qmail@web40808.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041104232723.76572.qmail@web40808.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dare Obasanjo wrote: > > Your argument is full of assumptions. > > (1) Sending POST requests to an arbitrary URI is much > more dangerous than sending arbitrary GET requests. > It is. That's why we have different HTTP methods. > (2) Redirecting a POST request will mean that data > won't get POSTed to the new URI. Please go read > http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/www/post-redirect.html, > HTTP specs just say the user must not be automatically > redirected. I've seen the behavior of web browsers > after redirection on a POST and this has never stopped > me from sending the POST message. > I don't understand your point. What's the series of requests that will lead to an automatically redirected POST request? > Basically I think you've unhealthily fixated on this > "problem" when worse problems exist with the entire > usage of XML over HTTP for delivering Atom feeds. Thanks for looking out for my health. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 19:44:26 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA28176 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:44:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA50Uhc4018284; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:30:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA50UhmW018283; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:30:43 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA50UPg7018043 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:30:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (203.30.247.2) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Fri, 5 Nov 2004 11:30:02 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 11:19:44 +1100 Subject: Re: PaceServiceError From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <418AA40F.40709@franklinmint.fm> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/11/04 8:50 AM, "Robert Sayre" wrote: > I don't follow your logic. I would just ignore hits from referrers I > don't care about. referrers? what are the expected uses of the Referer header with this thing? the Pace describes use of a 410 GONE response once the error had been fixed ... is it proper http behaviour to vary the response (200 OK vs 410 GONE) for a given specific URI according to the Referer header value? e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 20:00:33 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA29093 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 20:00:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA50o0Hp024275; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:50:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA50o0CH024267; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:50:00 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA50nxrN024259 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:50:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from duerst@w3.org) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E08534EFF9; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:50:02 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20041104221321.0865b078@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 08:59:35 +0900 To: mint@franklinmint.fm, Tim Bray From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: PaceServiceError Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 21:33 04/11/04, Robert Sayre wrote: >It uses a new a verb so you can't screw up the XML on purpose and send requests to random POST handlers. Using a new verb means that the resource actually has to be an Atom error handler. If this is Atom-specific, and it gets a verb, then rather than using "ERR", it should be called "ATOMERR" or some such. Regards, Martin. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 20:00:46 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA29114 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 20:00:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA50ijQU022496; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:44:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA50ijw4022495; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:44:45 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from 216-239-45-4.google.com (216-239-45-4.google.com [216.239.45.4]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA50iieP022465 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:44:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stevej@google.com) Received: from [172.24.68.136] (chopper.corp.google.com [172.24.68.136]) (authenticated bits=0) by vegeta.corp.google.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA50iU19004262 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:44:31 -0800 In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Atom Syntax From: steve jenson Subject: Re: PaceServiceError Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:44:30 -0800 To: Eric Scheid X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Nov 4, 2004, at 4:19 PM, Eric Scheid wrote: > > On 5/11/04 8:50 AM, "Robert Sayre" wrote: > >> I don't follow your logic. I would just ignore hits from referrers I >> don't care about. > > referrers? > > what are the expected uses of the Referer header with this thing? > > the Pace describes use of a 410 GONE response once the error had been > fixed > ... is it proper http behaviour to vary the response (200 OK vs 410 > GONE) > for a given specific URI according to the Referer header value? Also, it shouldn't be a 4xx code if it's not an error. -steve From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 20:20:07 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA00601 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 20:20:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA519HVl033395; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:09:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA519HmW033394; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:09:17 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA519Hud033373 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:09:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPsbN-0008L3-7e; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 01:09:17 +0000 Message-ID: <418AD2BA.9030808@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 20:09:14 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: steve jenson CC: Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: PaceServiceError References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit steve jenson wrote: > > On Nov 4, 2004, at 4:19 PM, Eric Scheid wrote: > >> >> On 5/11/04 8:50 AM, "Robert Sayre" wrote: >> >>> I don't follow your logic. I would just ignore hits from referrers I >>> don't care about. >> >> >> referrers? >> >> what are the expected uses of the Referer header with this thing? >> >> the Pace describes use of a 410 GONE response once the error had been >> fixed >> ... is it proper http behaviour to vary the response (200 OK vs 410 GONE) >> for a given specific URI according to the Referer header value? That's not what the Pace says. The Pace says you can change the ErrorURI for a given feed whenever you want. I would probably change the value of the of the ErrorURI every time the feed was generated. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 20:38:38 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA02759 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 20:38:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA51TDQM043681; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:29:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA51TD27043680; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:29:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA51TCbJ043671 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:29:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (203.30.247.2) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Fri, 5 Nov 2004 12:29:20 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 12:29:10 +1100 Subject: Re: PaceServiceError From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <418AD2BA.9030808@franklinmint.fm> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/11/04 12:09 PM, "Robert Sayre" wrote: > That's not what the Pace says. The Pace says you can change the ErrorURI > for a given feed whenever you want. I would probably change the value of > the of the ErrorURI every time the feed was generated. still doesn't help, unless you want to eliminate proxy caches. client A requests feed X via proxy P server S generates feed with errorURI E client A receives feed X with errorURI E client B requests feed X via proxy P proxy P provides feed X with errorURI E both client A and client B have on hand the same errorURI. client A sends a ERR response to URI E server S fixes whatever was broken client B sends a ERR response to URI E server S does what? e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 20:56:38 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA05503 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 20:56:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA51lDYd052192; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:47:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA51lD7t052191; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:47:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA51lCfa052171 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:47:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPtC7-0001sz-QV; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 01:47:16 +0000 Message-ID: <418ADBA1.9010007@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 20:47:13 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Scheid CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: PaceServiceError References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Scheid wrote: > On 5/11/04 12:09 PM, "Robert Sayre" wrote: > > >>That's not what the Pace says. The Pace says you can change the ErrorURI >>for a given feed whenever you want. I would probably change the value of >>the of the ErrorURI every time the feed was generated. > > > still doesn't help, unless you want to eliminate proxy caches. > False. > client A requests feed X via proxy P > server S generates feed with errorURI E > client A receives feed X with errorURI E > client B requests feed X via proxy P > proxy P provides feed X with errorURI E > > both client A and client B have on hand the same errorURI. > > client A sends a ERR response to URI E > server S fixes whatever was broken > > client B sends a ERR response to URI E > server S does what? Well, server S reports success it if it wants to use the same ErrorURI. If not, it can send an error. What's the problem here? The server decides whether a URI is bound to a resource. Is your problem that the server is still receiving ERRORs after the problem has been fixed? That's just an accurate reflection of reality. You'll stop getting those when people stop receiving your busted feed. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 21:21:06 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA07330 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:21:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA52BsF1062138; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:11:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA52Bsa4062137; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:11:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA52Bq4m062129 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:11:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (203.30.247.2) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Fri, 5 Nov 2004 13:12:01 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 13:11:51 +1100 Subject: Re: PaceServiceError From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <418ADBA1.9010007@franklinmint.fm> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/11/04 12:47 PM, "Robert Sayre" wrote: >>> That's not what the Pace says. The Pace says you can change the ErrorURI >>> for a given feed whenever you want. I would probably change the value of >>> the of the ErrorURI every time the feed was generated. >> >> >> still doesn't help, unless you want to eliminate proxy caches. > > False. sorry, I must have misunderstood you -- I thought you said you would change the errorURI to prevent two or more clients receiving the same errorURI, thus avoiding the problem of having to respond to those reports (since a given client shouldn't report to the same URI more than once). (If that is not the reason for you changing the errorURI each time, then just what is your reason for doing so?) All this based on your assertion that the pace doesn't say what I claimed... >>> the Pace describes use of a 410 GONE response once the error had been fixed >>> > That's not what the Pace says. Which is odd, since the pace says this: > 5.6.4.3 410 > > The server is no longer accepting error reports to this URI, and will not > resume accepting reports in the future. The client SHOULD NOT send any further > requests to this URI. and then follows that with an extended example illustrating just that. It might also pay to backtrace on this thread, which started with you stating: > I don't follow your logic. I would just ignore hits from referrers I > don't care about. which then prompted my very sensible question: >>> ... is it proper http behaviour to vary the response (200 OK vs 410 GONE) >>> for a given specific URI according to the Referer header value? (I'm still interested in the generic HTTP answer to that question, btw) So Robert, say your server receives a GRUMBLE to your ErrorURI, and say you have already fixed the problem, and say the referer header is some third-party URI ... just what response will you provide to the request? > Is your problem that the server is still receiving ERRORs after the > problem has been fixed? That's just an accurate reflection of reality. That's not my question (nor my problem). My question was is it http-proper to vary the response depending on the referer header. What's the answer to that question, and this time lets not get distracted by red herrings like changing the ErrorURI. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 21:41:42 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA08656 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:41:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA52XYia069055; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:33:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA52XY0o069054; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:33:34 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA52XXox069032 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:33:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.9]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPtv0-0004FE-A4; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 02:33:38 +0000 Message-ID: <418AE67D.1030402@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 21:33:33 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Scheid CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: PaceServiceError References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Scheid wrote: > > which then prompted my very sensible question: > > >>>>... is it proper http behaviour to vary the response (200 OK vs 410 GONE) >>>>for a given specific URI according to the Referer header value? > > > So Robert, say your server receives a GRUMBLE to your ErrorURI, and say you > have already fixed the problem, and say the referer header is some > third-party URI ... just what response will you provide to the request? > 204. I won't record it, but I will acknowledge it. GRUMBLE doesn't guarantee that the request changes state on the server. > >>Is your problem that the server is still receiving ERRORs after the >>problem has been fixed? That's just an accurate reflection of reality. > > > That's not my question (nor my problem). My question was is it http-proper > to vary the response depending on the referer header. What's the answer to > that question, and this time lets not get distracted by red herrings like > changing the ErrorURI. Oh, that's not what I meant by "ignore it". If it's a valid request to a URI where errors are still being accepted, you'll get a 204. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 22:42:37 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA12936 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 22:42:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA53Y0PB096736; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:34:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA53Y0TP096735; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:34:00 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA53XxuC096715; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:34:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from duerst@w3.org) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3986B4EFF9; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 22:34:04 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20041105085400.0881c368@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 12:33:53 +0900 To: Paul Hoffman / IMC , Atom WG From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: Observations on the "error" discussion In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 03:40 04/11/05, Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: >2) It is not clear whether or not this should be Atom-specific. Even the erstwhile W3C liaison to the IETF suggests that maybe the IETF making a generic change to HTTP for all error reporting is OK. Just some clarifications, assuming you are referring to my message at http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11139.html. - Looking up 'erstwhile' at http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary gives 'former, previous'. Together with Dan Connolly, I'm actually the *current* liaison from the W3C to the IETF. - The statement was not made with my liaison hat on. I'm participating in this WG just for myself. If I ever make a statement as a liaison, I'll say so (but I'd probably talk directly to people in the IAB and the IESG in this case). - I wasn't commenting on the desirability of a generic change to HTTP, but only on where such a change might happen, assuming it was desirable. - This was based on past history and current status of the HTTP spec (an IETF Draft Standard, not a W3C Recommendation), and not on any assumptions one way or another about what the two mentioned parties might want to do. You can guess for yourself whether I wrote *this* mail with my liaison hat on (because as a liaison, I have to make sure comments I make are not misunderstood to come from W3C as such) or as an individual (because as an individual, I have to make sure my comments as an individual are understood as such, and correctly). Take your pick :-). Regards, Martin. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 4 23:11:50 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA14928 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:11:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA53wCax007321; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:58:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA53wBdl007320; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:58:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [10.20.30.249] (dsl2-63-249-109-3.cruzio.com [63.249.109.3]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA53w81Q007288; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:58:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20041105085400.0881c368@localhost> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20041105085400.0881c368@localhost> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:57:40 -0800 To: Martin Duerst , Atom WG From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: Observations on the "error" discussion Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At 12:33 PM +0900 11/5/04, Martin Duerst wrote: >- Looking up 'erstwhile' at http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary > gives 'former, previous'. Together with Dan Connolly, I'm actually > the *current* liaison from the W3C to the IETF. Yuck. I've been using that word wrong for thirty years. And I've been corrected by a Swiss. :-) >- The statement was not made with my liaison hat on. I'm participating > in this WG just for myself. If I ever make a statement as a liaison, > I'll say so (but I'd probably talk directly to people in the IAB and > the IESG in this case). Noted. >- I wasn't commenting on the desirability of a generic change to HTTP, > but only on where such a change might happen, assuming it was desirable. Understood. >- This was based on past history and current status of the HTTP spec > (an IETF Draft Standard, not a W3C Recommendation), and not on any > assumptions one way or another about what the two mentioned parties > might want to do. I'll talk about the general topic this week at the IETF meeting. I'm sure the WebDAV folks can speak to it as well. >You can guess for yourself whether I wrote *this* mail with my liaison >hat on (because as a liaison, I have to make sure comments I make are >not misunderstood to come from W3C as such) or as an individual (because >as an individual, I have to make sure my comments as an individual >are understood as such, and correctly). Take your pick :-). The Swiss are known for their interesting hats.... --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 5 03:31:43 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA15937 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 03:31:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA58IdTB060349; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 00:18:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA58IdZC060347; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 00:18:39 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from fed1rmmtao08.cox.net (fed1rmmtao08.cox.net [68.230.241.31]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA58IYxl060206; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 00:18:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fielding@gbiv.com) Received: from [192.168.0.100] (really [68.4.71.218]) by fed1rmmtao08.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-117-20041022) with ESMTP id <20041105081824.CVGJ9263.fed1rmmtao08.cox.net@[192.168.0.100]>; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 03:18:24 -0500 In-Reply-To: References: <9981361BB45395BDEBEDCFE2@diva.verity.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <3CFB3132-2F03-11D9-8F8B-000393753936@gbiv.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Atom WG From: "Roy T. Fielding" Subject: Re: Observations on the "error" discussion Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 00:18:13 -0800 To: Paul Hoffman / IMC X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Nov 4, 2004, at 12:23 PM, Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: > At 11:40 AM -0800 11/4/04, Walter Underwood wrote: >> I object for a different reason. >> >> It seems to me that it is trying to enable a social pressure on feeds >> that don't meet the standard. I think this is new ground for a >> protocol >> standard. Usually, implementation validation is a separate phase, and >> not >> part of normal operation. >> >> I know we are all really tired of busted HTML and XML, but this >> doesn't >> seem like it solves the problem. Getting rid of bad feeds requires >> publicising them, not telling the publisher (who might not care). > > I see a conflict between your first sentence ("It seems to...") and > your last ("Getting rid of..."). I don't -- Walter's comment is spot-on. If we want folks to fix bad software, then include a UI requirement that the recipient include or render an indication that the feed is broken. For example, a headline that says "Received feed contained errors due to SOFTWARE THAT SUCKS or temporary communication errors." Guess how long it will take for the real maintainer of that feed, not the poor dudes trying to support the HTTP server, to fix the problem? Another method of doing the same thing is to simply test the bad software and post a "hall of shame" web page that explains the errors. Sending feedback to the HTTP server is a bad idea. First, feed errors are more likely to be caused by bad client software that mishandles its own reads. If Microsoft's Web Folders sent an error every time it received a WebDAV message that it considers to be an "error" (i.e., every message it received from a standards-compliant server), WebDAV would never have made it to proposed standard. Should we encourage Atom 0.3 clients to send an error message whenever they receive a Atom 1.0 feed? How about when 1.0 clients receive a 1.1 feed? What on earth makes people think that client software is capable of differentiating between broken feeds and features that are simply unknown to that client? Second, the people who read error logs are not the people who care why the feed is broken. People who manage web servers have a tendency to delete software that results in large error logs and then forbid reinstallation of any *similar* software in the future. Their job is to maintain business critical functions, not play hand-maiden to a bunch of bloggers. Automated error reporting is a great way to discourage companies from deploying Atom. Third, it is a waste of bits. If a feed is broken, it might be useful for one client to report that fact to the owner of the feed (not the web server). It is never appropriate for all clients to report the error, since clients frequently outnumber servers by 10,000:1 and sometimes millions to one. When I receive 10,000 lines in an error log, I don't evaluate the range of potential options for other software -- I simply turn the reporting option off and/or delete the software that caused it. Finally, if feeds are supplied in a reasonably efficient architecture that can take advantage of hierarchy and proxies, then the actual source of feed errors may have no relation to the feed source. If a company like AOL installs a broken proxy that corrupts the data stream in a minor way, do we think it is a good idea for the 50 million clients behind those proxies to suddenly start sending feed error requests to every origin's report URI? And, no, this can't be solved by requiring that the reporting URI be a hop-by-hop header field, since those proxies aren't HTTP/1.1 compliant anyway. In short, there are many reasons that HTTP does not already contain such an error reporting feature, and none of them are due to not considering it as an option. If the road to hell is paved with good intentions, then automated error reporting is surely a superhighway. If we want to ensure that feeds work, then insist that the client software display error indicators around broken feed data, thereby providing both sufficient information to the feed owner and a warning to the client's owner that they might not be reading the true source. That is sufficient to cause people who care to report the problem, assuming the author doesn't notice it immediately, and does not cause the Internet harm in the process. Given that, deciding which method to use is irrelevant. Furthermore, use of "X-..." as a prefix for a header field name in a specification is contrary to the meaning of those names in MIME, and therefore forbidden in a standards-track proposal. In any case, HTTP doesn't use that lame method of indicating private header fields because of the many times that damn fools have released public software that uses X-prefixes, even though the only reason X-prefixes are supposed to be safe from collisions is because they are not allowed to be standardized! Go figure. Cheers, Roy T. Fielding Chief Scientist, Day Software From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 5 06:14:01 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA00735 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 06:14:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA5B4W6E078154; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 03:04:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA5B4W1A078153; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 03:04:32 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.193]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA5B4VQV078134 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 03:04:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so61580rns for ; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 03:04:29 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=h7TaEGlMYARSdkDSU6OqdK7Bldf7pYuDyasxzf/qHVHI3Zq3rK1TEG/K0VNUjVrySOQB6r24U4s7saNni84xG5OtE5ysH3wB8HWaV7CdnyMrF7qrK7/J29bA+HeGziYfe4gbAVI2B9mYYNJkLDMutWOMFw+pR5APA2cnR5JFS6U= Received: by 10.38.179.47 with SMTP id b47mr144983rnf; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 03:04:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 03:04:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04110503042623a96b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 12:04:29 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: "Roy T. Fielding" Subject: Re: Observations on the "error" discussion Cc: Paul Hoffman / IMC , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <3CFB3132-2F03-11D9-8F8B-000393753936@gbiv.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <9981361BB45395BDEBEDCFE2@diva.verity.com> <3CFB3132-2F03-11D9-8F8B-000393753936@gbiv.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 00:18:13 -0800, Roy T. Fielding wrote: For example, a > headline > that says "Received feed contained errors due to SOFTWARE THAT SUCKS > or temporary communication errors." Guess how long it will take for > the real maintainer of that feed, not the poor dudes trying to support > the HTTP server, to fix the problem? A popular view is that end users don't care about data errors, they simply want the information. An impact of this has been the development of 'liberal' parsers. Yes, quite a few people on this list saw some benefit in flagging errors to the end user, but I'm sure we will see plenty of clients that silently ignore errors. But even if errors are flagged, what is the end-user expected to do, especially when they can still read the feed data thanks to cleaning heuristics? > Another method of doing the same thing is to simply test the bad > software and post a "hall of shame" web page that explains the errors. Sure. But these kind of techniques are already available for RSS (e.g. Syndic8). Yet there are still plenty of applications that (usually intermittently) deliver ill-formed data. Because there are other techniques doesn't mean the technique being proposed isn't desirable. > Sending feedback to the HTTP server is a bad idea. First, feed errors > are more likely to be caused by bad client software that mishandles > its own reads. Do we have evidence of that in the context of syndication? I suspect that the vast majority of errors are above the HTTP level. Most clients ignore the XML mime RFC, but assuming they've guessed a workable encoding they can tell if the XML is ill-formed or not. > Should we encourage Atom 0.3 clients to send an error message whenever > they receive a Atom 1.0 feed? How about when 1.0 clients receive a 1.1 > feed? What on earth makes people think that client software is capable > of differentiating between broken feeds and features that are simply > unknown to that client? Separate issue. We do need to sort out versioning so that a client can tell the difference between a broken feed and a different version. > Second, the people who read error logs are not the people who care > why the feed is broken. Depends on the nature of those logs. If the information appears in a prominent place in the content management system, the right people will see it. > Third, it is a waste of bits. Quite the opposite. If the error isn't reported, then the publisher will continue to serve bad data to the million clients indefinitely. Even if it takes a billion reports before something is done, thats still bless wasteful than open-ended junk distribution. > Finally, if feeds are supplied in a reasonably efficient architecture > that can take advantage of hierarchy and proxies, then the actual > source of feed errors may have no relation to the feed source. If they are supplied in a reasonably functional architecture, then the errors won't be occurring en route. Again, do with have evidence that this is the likely case in syndication? Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 5 08:14:48 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA10357 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 08:14:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA5D3AfR052662; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 05:03:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA5D3Aam052661; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 05:03:10 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA5D38cl052534 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 05:03:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from quark (58.80-202-95.nextgentel.com [80.202.95.58]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7B6E68BA; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 14:03:40 +0100 (MET) To: "Martin Duerst" , mint@franklinmint.fm, "Tim Bray" Cc: "Atom WG" Subject: Re: PaceServiceError References: <49AA747E-2E23-11D9-932C-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418A21A1.5050307@franklinmint.fm> <6.0.0.20.2.20041104221321.0865b078@localhost> Message-ID: From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 14:04:29 +0100 In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20041104221321.0865b078@localhost> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 08:59:35 +0900, Martin Duerst wrote: > If this is Atom-specific, and it gets a verb, then rather than > using "ERR", it should be called "ATOMERR" or some such. I don't think it should be Atom-specific. I'd actually add a vote to move this into its own I-D. -- Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- asbjornu@hotmail.com «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 5 09:02:42 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA14022 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:02:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA5Dsb2j074407; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 05:54:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA5Dsb6Y074406; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 05:54:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA5DsaYf074350; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 05:54:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from quark (58.80-202-95.nextgentel.com [80.202.95.58]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71E8E6B1D; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 14:55:23 +0100 (MET) To: "Paul Hoffman / IMC" , "Martin Duerst" , "Atom WG" Subject: Re: Observations on the "error" discussion References: <6.0.0.20.2.20041105085400.0881c368@localhost> Message-ID: From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 14:56:22 +0100 In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:57:40 -0800, Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: > I'll talk about the general topic this week at the IETF meeting. I'm > sure the WebDAV folks can speak to it as well. I hope you can summarize the discussion on the list after the meeting. It would be especially interesting to hear what the WebDAV folks has to say about the issue. -- Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- asbjornu@hotmail.com «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 5 09:12:20 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA14855 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:12:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA5E1QY8076555; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 06:01:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA5E1QDj076554; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 06:01:26 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (imap.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA5E1Ott076500 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 06:01:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian.reschke@gmx.de) Received: (qmail 767 invoked by uid 65534); 5 Nov 2004 14:01:12 -0000 Received: from p508248D9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (EHLO [192.168.1.15]) (80.130.72.217) by mail.gmx.net (mp007) with SMTP; 05 Nov 2004 15:01:12 +0100 X-Authenticated: #1915285 Message-ID: <418B87A6.6070805@gmx.de> Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 15:01:10 +0100 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= CC: Paul Hoffman / IMC , Martin Duerst , Atom WG Subject: Re: Observations on the "error" discussion References: <6.0.0.20.2.20041105085400.0881c368@localhost> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Asbjørn Ulsberg wrote: > > On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:57:40 -0800, Paul Hoffman / IMC > wrote: > >> I'll talk about the general topic this week at the IETF meeting. I'm >> sure the WebDAV folks can speak to it as well. > > > I hope you can summarize the discussion on the list after the meeting. > It would be especially interesting to hear what the WebDAV folks has to > say about the issue. As far as I can tell, many of the "WebDAV folks" (Greg, Lisa, Stefan, myself) are following this list anyway. If the question was: "is there any significant problem defining new HTTP methods?", then my answer is: "none at all". Best regards, Julian -- bytes GmbH -- http://www.greenbytes.de -- tel:+492512807760 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 5 09:29:42 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA16054 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:29:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA5EGLQe082506; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 06:16:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA5EGLEi082505; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 06:16:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.200]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA5EGKve082493 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 06:16:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so66437rns for ; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 06:16:13 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=rZ6kBdyNLAseMLK1jWnsCQSfyM7ByrWi53VoKMaPvjSTgcEcBXGh+1KMIhfdp3PPGPLFaj/2gvOtT8eEO00JgV074KLGBW/h7SZXAqhabpFYAB8GvgAhzGUwezdyW9KGzxxb+6W4Y5gTjht+NFA5iI/hY6H9VjMnd7Ghk2N7reY= Received: by 10.38.179.47 with SMTP id b47mr203516rnf; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 06:16:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 06:16:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0411050616922afe0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 15:16:12 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Julian Reschke Subject: Re: Observations on the "error" discussion Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= , Paul Hoffman / IMC , Martin Duerst , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <418B87A6.6070805@gmx.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <6.0.0.20.2.20041105085400.0881c368@localhost> <418B87A6.6070805@gmx.de> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 15:01:10 +0100, Julian Reschke wrote: > As far as I can tell, many of the "WebDAV folks" (Greg, Lisa, Stefan, > myself) are following this list anyway. If the question was: "is there > any significant problem defining new HTTP methods?", then my answer is: > "none at all". How about "is there any significant problem getting those new methods adopted and deployed to the extent that they are available to the majority of Web users?" Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 5 09:39:04 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA16735 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:39:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA5EXGRf088697; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 06:33:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA5EXG2c088696; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 06:33:16 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA5EXEc3088653 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 06:33:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian.reschke@gmx.de) Received: (qmail 19312 invoked by uid 65534); 5 Nov 2004 14:33:11 -0000 Received: from p508248D9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (EHLO [192.168.1.15]) (80.130.72.217) by mail.gmx.net (mp018) with SMTP; 05 Nov 2004 15:33:11 +0100 X-Authenticated: #1915285 Message-ID: <418B8F26.9060306@gmx.de> Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 15:33:10 +0100 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Danny Ayers CC: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= , Paul Hoffman / IMC , Martin Duerst , Atom WG Subject: Re: Observations on the "error" discussion References: <6.0.0.20.2.20041105085400.0881c368@localhost> <418B87A6.6070805@gmx.de> <1f2ed5cd0411050616922afe0@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd0411050616922afe0@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Danny Ayers wrote: > On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 15:01:10 +0100, Julian Reschke > wrote: > > >>As far as I can tell, many of the "WebDAV folks" (Greg, Lisa, Stefan, >>myself) are following this list anyway. If the question was: "is there >>any significant problem defining new HTTP methods?", then my answer is: >>"none at all". > > How about "is there any significant problem getting those new methods > adopted and deployed to the extent that they are available to the > majority of Web users?" As far as I can tell, there is no such problem. The most popular web servers (Apache/moddav, IIS) implement WebDAV, and clients are available for Windows/Linux/OS-X. Occasionally we hear of people having trouble with broken proxies, but as far as I can tell, this is really rare nowadays. Best regards, Julian -- bytes GmbH -- http://www.greenbytes.de -- tel:+492512807760 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 5 10:20:24 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA20879 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:20:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA5FC9Si000966; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:12:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA5FC9vT000964; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:12:09 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA5FC8Pf000905; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:12:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from quark (58.80-202-95.nextgentel.com [80.202.95.58]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15BFD5204; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 16:12:54 +0100 (MET) To: "Julian Reschke" Cc: "Paul Hoffman / IMC" , "Martin Duerst" , "Atom WG" Subject: Re: Observations on the "error" discussion References: <6.0.0.20.2.20041105085400.0881c368@localhost> <418B87A6.6070805@gmx.de> Message-ID: From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 16:13:54 +0100 In-Reply-To: <418B87A6.6070805@gmx.de> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 15:01:10 +0100, Julian Reschke wrote: > As far as I can tell, many of the "WebDAV folks" (Greg, Lisa, Stefan, > myself) are following this list anyway. True. > If the question was: "is there any significant problem defining new > HTTP methods?", then my answer is: "none at all". Ah, brilliant. Thanks. -- Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- asbjornu@hotmail.com «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 5 10:31:19 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA21657 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:31:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA5FJJsq003231; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:19:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA5FJJsr003230; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:19:19 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bork.markbaker.ca (static-80-155.dsl.cuic.ca [216.126.80.155] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA5FJIQX003205 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:19:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from distobj@acm.org) Received: from mbaker by bork.markbaker.ca with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CQ5u3-0006fL-00 for ; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 10:21:27 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:21:27 -0500 To: Atom WG Subject: Re: Observations on the "error" discussion Message-ID: <20041105152127.GK30868@markbaker.ca> References: <9981361BB45395BDEBEDCFE2@diva.verity.com> <3CFB3132-2F03-11D9-8F8B-000393753936@gbiv.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CFB3132-2F03-11D9-8F8B-000393753936@gbiv.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: Mark Baker Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Big +1 to all points. On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 12:18:13AM -0800, Roy T. Fielding wrote: > > On Nov 4, 2004, at 12:23 PM, Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: > >At 11:40 AM -0800 11/4/04, Walter Underwood wrote: > >>I object for a different reason. > >> > >>It seems to me that it is trying to enable a social pressure on feeds > >>that don't meet the standard. I think this is new ground for a > >>protocol > >>standard. Usually, implementation validation is a separate phase, and > >>not > >>part of normal operation. > >> > >>I know we are all really tired of busted HTML and XML, but this > >>doesn't > >>seem like it solves the problem. Getting rid of bad feeds requires > >>publicising them, not telling the publisher (who might not care). > > > >I see a conflict between your first sentence ("It seems to...") and > >your last ("Getting rid of..."). > > I don't -- Walter's comment is spot-on. If we want folks to fix bad > software, then include a UI requirement that the recipient include > or render an indication that the feed is broken. For example, a > headline > that says "Received feed contained errors due to SOFTWARE THAT SUCKS > or temporary communication errors." Guess how long it will take for > the real maintainer of that feed, not the poor dudes trying to support > the HTTP server, to fix the problem? > > Another method of doing the same thing is to simply test the bad > software and post a "hall of shame" web page that explains the errors. > > Sending feedback to the HTTP server is a bad idea. First, feed errors > are more likely to be caused by bad client software that mishandles > its own reads. If Microsoft's Web Folders sent an error every > time it received a WebDAV message that it considers to be an "error" > (i.e., every message it received from a standards-compliant server), > WebDAV would never have made it to proposed standard. > > Should we encourage Atom 0.3 clients to send an error message whenever > they receive a Atom 1.0 feed? How about when 1.0 clients receive a 1.1 > feed? What on earth makes people think that client software is capable > of differentiating between broken feeds and features that are simply > unknown to that client? > > Second, the people who read error logs are not the people who care > why the feed is broken. People who manage web servers have a tendency > to delete software that results in large error logs and then forbid > reinstallation of any *similar* software in the future. Their job > is to maintain business critical functions, not play hand-maiden to > a bunch of bloggers. Automated error reporting is a great way to > discourage companies from deploying Atom. > > Third, it is a waste of bits. If a feed is broken, it might be useful > for one client to report that fact to the owner of the feed (not the > web server). It is never appropriate for all clients to report the > error, since clients frequently outnumber servers by 10,000:1 and > sometimes millions to one. When I receive 10,000 lines in an error log, > I don't evaluate the range of potential options for other software -- I > simply turn the reporting option off and/or delete the software that > caused it. > > Finally, if feeds are supplied in a reasonably efficient architecture > that can take advantage of hierarchy and proxies, then the actual > source of feed errors may have no relation to the feed source. > If a company like AOL installs a broken proxy that corrupts the data > stream in a minor way, do we think it is a good idea for the > 50 million clients behind those proxies to suddenly start sending > feed error requests to every origin's report URI? And, no, this > can't be solved by requiring that the reporting URI be a hop-by-hop > header field, since those proxies aren't HTTP/1.1 compliant anyway. > > In short, there are many reasons that HTTP does not already contain > such an error reporting feature, and none of them are due to not > considering it as an option. If the road to hell is paved with good > intentions, then automated error reporting is surely a superhighway. > > If we want to ensure that feeds work, then insist that the client > software display error indicators around broken feed data, thereby > providing both sufficient information to the feed owner and a > warning to the client's owner that they might not be reading the > true source. That is sufficient to cause people who care to report > the problem, assuming the author doesn't notice it immediately, > and does not cause the Internet harm in the process. > > Given that, deciding which method to use is irrelevant. Furthermore, > use of "X-..." as a prefix for a header field name in a specification > is contrary to the meaning of those names in MIME, and therefore > forbidden in a standards-track proposal. In any case, HTTP doesn't > use that lame method of indicating private header fields because of > the many times that damn fools have released public software that uses > X-prefixes, even though the only reason X-prefixes are supposed > to be safe from collisions is because they are not allowed to be > standardized! Go figure. > > > Cheers, > > Roy T. Fielding > Chief Scientist, Day Software > -- Mark Baker. Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA. http://www.markbaker.ca From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 5 14:48:51 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA10603 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 14:48:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA5JZ1Ne003643; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 11:35:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA5JZ10t003641; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 11:35:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from fed1rmmtao11.cox.net (fed1rmmtao11.cox.net [68.230.241.28]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA5JZ0uS003547; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 11:35:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fielding@gbiv.com) Received: from [192.168.0.100] (really [68.4.71.218]) by fed1rmmtao11.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-117-20041022) with ESMTP id <20041105193459.MCID10733.fed1rmmtao11.cox.net@[192.168.0.100]>; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 14:34:59 -0500 In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd04110503042623a96b@mail.gmail.com> References: <9981361BB45395BDEBEDCFE2@diva.verity.com> <3CFB3132-2F03-11D9-8F8B-000393753936@gbiv.com> <1f2ed5cd04110503042623a96b@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Paul Hoffman / IMC , Atom WG From: "Roy T. Fielding" Subject: Re: Observations on the "error" discussion Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 11:34:58 -0800 To: Danny Ayers X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Nov 5, 2004, at 3:04 AM, Danny Ayers wrote: > A popular view is that end users don't care about data errors, they > simply want the information. That would obviously depend on the nature of the error and how it impacts the information. I don't know of anyone who thinks silent acceptance of errors is a good thing. I did not suggest something stupid like a pop-up box that interrupts the user and asks that they confirm that the server's software sucks -- there are many ways to indicate an error such that it won't even be noticed by those users who don't care. > An impact of this has been the > development of 'liberal' parsers. Yes, quite a few people on this list > saw some benefit in flagging errors to the end user, but I'm sure we > will see plenty of clients that silently ignore errors. But even if > errors are flagged, what is the end-user expected to do, especially > when they can still read the feed data thanks to cleaning heuristics? The first end-user is almost always the author of the feed in question, particularly when new software is deployed. >> Another method of doing the same thing is to simply test the bad >> software and post a "hall of shame" web page that explains the errors. > > Sure. But these kind of techniques are already available for RSS (e.g. > Syndic8). Yet there are still plenty of applications that (usually > intermittently) deliver ill-formed data. > > Because there are other techniques doesn't mean the technique being > proposed isn't desirable. No, it just means it isn't needed. The technique is undesirable for other reasons. >> Sending feedback to the HTTP server is a bad idea. First, feed errors >> are more likely to be caused by bad client software that mishandles >> its own reads. > > Do we have evidence of that in the context of syndication? I suspect > that the vast majority of errors are above the HTTP level. Most > clients ignore the XML mime RFC, but assuming they've guessed a > workable encoding they can tell if the XML is ill-formed or not. No, we don't have "evidence" of that in syndication -- we only have experience that can be drawn upon from 11 years of deploying services on top of HTTP. Generally speaking, sending an HTTP server an error message means it will be read either by no one or by the HTTP server maintainer, not the application maintainer. I know that for a fact because I wrote one of the first log analyzers (wwwstat) and have dealt with Apache httpd users since day one, and not once have I ever encountered an application developer that quoted from the error_log (even when the documentation specifically says to look there first). >> Finally, if feeds are supplied in a reasonably efficient architecture >> that can take advantage of hierarchy and proxies, then the actual >> source of feed errors may have no relation to the feed source. > > If they are supplied in a reasonably functional architecture, then the > errors won't be occurring en route. Again, do with have evidence that > this is the likely case in syndication? Proxies are hard to do right. I am not aware of any HTTP proxies in current use that do not introduce errors to the stream under some circumstances, in spite of the specifications being stable for six years now. Cheers, Roy T. Fielding Chief Scientist, Day Software From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 5 16:10:00 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA18154 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 16:10:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA5Kt9WI041300; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 12:55:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA5Kt98j041299; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 12:55:09 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA5Kt8A9041265 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 12:55:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from host10.sjcri.hyatthsiagx.com ([208.48.184.10] helo=[127.0.0.1]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CQB6z-0003cM-7M; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 20:55:09 +0000 Message-ID: <418BDA91.4010701@franklinmint.fm> Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 14:54:57 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.2 (Windows/20040707) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Baker CC: Atom WG Subject: Re: Observations on the "error" discussion References: <9981361BB45395BDEBEDCFE2@diva.verity.com> <3CFB3132-2F03-11D9-8F8B-000393753936@gbiv.com> <20041105152127.GK30868@markbaker.ca> In-Reply-To: <20041105152127.GK30868@markbaker.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If it won't work, that's cool. But let's not pretend we are choosing an alternative solution. We are choosing Broken. That's fine. A couple points: 1.) Weblog software doesn't typically make use of the server's logs, so this is not creating work for the sysadmin. 2.) There's no reason the responses couldn't be cached. Hearing from one client is enough (the Pace doesn't specify a request body). Other points in the email seem plenty valid. *exits superhighway Robert Sayre Mark Baker wrote: > Big +1 to all points. > > On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 12:18:13AM -0800, Roy T. Fielding wrote: > >>On Nov 4, 2004, at 12:23 PM, Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: >> >>>At 11:40 AM -0800 11/4/04, Walter Underwood wrote: >>> >>>>I object for a different reason. >>>> >>>>It seems to me that it is trying to enable a social pressure on feeds >>>>that don't meet the standard. I think this is new ground for a >>>>protocol >>>>standard. Usually, implementation validation is a separate phase, and >>>>not >>>>part of normal operation. >>>> >>>>I know we are all really tired of busted HTML and XML, but this >>>>doesn't >>>>seem like it solves the problem. Getting rid of bad feeds requires >>>>publicising them, not telling the publisher (who might not care). >>> >>>I see a conflict between your first sentence ("It seems to...") and >>>your last ("Getting rid of..."). >> >>I don't -- Walter's comment is spot-on. If we want folks to fix bad >>software, then include a UI requirement that the recipient include >>or render an indication that the feed is broken. For example, a >>headline >>that says "Received feed contained errors due to SOFTWARE THAT SUCKS >>or temporary communication errors." Guess how long it will take for >>the real maintainer of that feed, not the poor dudes trying to support >>the HTTP server, to fix the problem? >> >>Another method of doing the same thing is to simply test the bad >>software and post a "hall of shame" web page that explains the errors. >> >>Sending feedback to the HTTP server is a bad idea. First, feed errors >>are more likely to be caused by bad client software that mishandles >>its own reads. If Microsoft's Web Folders sent an error every >>time it received a WebDAV message that it considers to be an "error" >>(i.e., every message it received from a standards-compliant server), >>WebDAV would never have made it to proposed standard. >> >>Should we encourage Atom 0.3 clients to send an error message whenever >>they receive a Atom 1.0 feed? How about when 1.0 clients receive a 1.1 >>feed? What on earth makes people think that client software is capable >>of differentiating between broken feeds and features that are simply >>unknown to that client? >> >>Second, the people who read error logs are not the people who care >>why the feed is broken. People who manage web servers have a tendency >>to delete software that results in large error logs and then forbid >>reinstallation of any *similar* software in the future. Their job >>is to maintain business critical functions, not play hand-maiden to >>a bunch of bloggers. Automated error reporting is a great way to >>discourage companies from deploying Atom. >> >>Third, it is a waste of bits. If a feed is broken, it might be useful >>for one client to report that fact to the owner of the feed (not the >>web server). It is never appropriate for all clients to report the >>error, since clients frequently outnumber servers by 10,000:1 and >>sometimes millions to one. When I receive 10,000 lines in an error log, >>I don't evaluate the range of potential options for other software -- I >>simply turn the reporting option off and/or delete the software that >>caused it. >> >>Finally, if feeds are supplied in a reasonably efficient architecture >>that can take advantage of hierarchy and proxies, then the actual >>source of feed errors may have no relation to the feed source. >>If a company like AOL installs a broken proxy that corrupts the data >>stream in a minor way, do we think it is a good idea for the >>50 million clients behind those proxies to suddenly start sending >>feed error requests to every origin's report URI? And, no, this >>can't be solved by requiring that the reporting URI be a hop-by-hop >>header field, since those proxies aren't HTTP/1.1 compliant anyway. >> >>In short, there are many reasons that HTTP does not already contain >>such an error reporting feature, and none of them are due to not >>considering it as an option. If the road to hell is paved with good >>intentions, then automated error reporting is surely a superhighway. >> >>If we want to ensure that feeds work, then insist that the client >>software display error indicators around broken feed data, thereby >>providing both sufficient information to the feed owner and a >>warning to the client's owner that they might not be reading the >>true source. That is sufficient to cause people who care to report >>the problem, assuming the author doesn't notice it immediately, >>and does not cause the Internet harm in the process. >> >>Given that, deciding which method to use is irrelevant. Furthermore, >>use of "X-..." as a prefix for a header field name in a specification >>is contrary to the meaning of those names in MIME, and therefore >>forbidden in a standards-track proposal. In any case, HTTP doesn't >>use that lame method of indicating private header fields because of >>the many times that damn fools have released public software that uses >>X-prefixes, even though the only reason X-prefixes are supposed >>to be safe from collisions is because they are not allowed to be >>standardized! Go figure. >> >> >>Cheers, >> >>Roy T. Fielding >>Chief Scientist, Day Software >> > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 5 17:08:26 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA24244 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 17:08:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA5LvK84067315; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 13:57:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA5LvKCg067314; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 13:57:20 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.203]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA5LvJ8Z067292 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 13:57:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so96785rns for ; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 13:57:21 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=kCBw2WmXGDX5QeUanNhdneRGCeT9cCW7kywZCrpCdZHz8OPnpDuOO+JQ8mtUENRkoFNSMkCNt5fW0GmsdBjTgJ8Bdz4mGbWh9Orrr+cxGETfbo6oMXChSI3WUfqKwckscn/5/koiCpSBeXT35tCWK8/OOiYECDJ76djKGGbpulk= Received: by 10.38.8.54 with SMTP id 54mr358537rnh; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 12:57:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 12:57:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04110512575d3c3492@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 21:57:20 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: "Roy T. Fielding" Subject: Re: Observations on the "error" discussion Cc: phoffman@imc.org, atom-syntax@imc.org, rubys@intertwingly.net In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <9981361BB45395BDEBEDCFE2@diva.verity.com> <3CFB3132-2F03-11D9-8F8B-000393753936@gbiv.com> <1f2ed5cd04110503042623a96b@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 11:34:58 -0800, Roy T. Fielding wrote: > >> Sending feedback to the HTTP server is a bad idea. First, feed errors > >> are more likely to be caused by bad client software that mishandles > >> its own reads. > > > > Do we have evidence of that in the context of syndication? I suspect > > that the vast majority of errors are above the HTTP level. Most > > clients ignore the XML mime RFC, but assuming they've guessed a > > workable encoding they can tell if the XML is ill-formed or not. > > No, we don't have "evidence" of that in syndication -- we only have > experience that can be drawn upon from 11 years of deploying services > on top of HTTP. Generally speaking, sending an HTTP server an error > message means it will be read either by no one or by the HTTP server > maintainer, not the application maintainer. I know that for a fact > because I wrote one of the first log analyzers (wwwstat) and have > dealt with Apache httpd users since day one, and not once have I ever > encountered an application developer that quoted from the error_log > (even when the documentation specifically says to look there first). Sure, and I very much respect your contributions in the field. But the kind of error reporting being suggested is a move away from server logs, much more under the application maintainer's nose. Your comments here seem to presuppose that error reporting will primarily be concerned with problems at the transport level. I believe current syndication practice would suggest that most problems are going to be within the XML - I'd like to hear Sam's opinion on this (with his feed-validator-author's hat on). But overall I don't think any of the possible problems you highlighted signal any systematic flaw with error reporting of the kind under discussion. It might not work, but then feed quality is a real issue, and IMHO anything that may help should be worth a try. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 5 17:54:17 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA27711 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 17:54:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA5Mjgkg091197; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 14:45:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA5MjfBu091196; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 14:45:41 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chromium.sabren.com (chromium.sabren.com [69.20.61.177]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA5MjalY091168; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 14:45:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.1.103] ([66.57.27.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by chromium.sabren.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA5MkiR0003459; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 17:46:44 -0500 Message-ID: <418C027F.5030809@intertwingly.net> Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 17:45:19 -0500 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040803 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Danny Ayers CC: "Roy T. Fielding" , phoffman@imc.org, atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Observations on the "error" discussion References: <9981361BB45395BDEBEDCFE2@diva.verity.com> <3CFB3132-2F03-11D9-8F8B-000393753936@gbiv.com> <1f2ed5cd04110503042623a96b@mail.gmail.com> <1f2ed5cd04110512575d3c3492@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd04110512575d3c3492@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Danny Ayers wrote: > > Sure, and I very much respect your contributions in the field. But the > kind of error reporting being suggested is a move away from server > logs, much more under the application maintainer's nose. Your comments > here seem to presuppose that error reporting will primarily be > concerned with problems at the transport level. I believe current > syndication practice would suggest that most problems are going to be > within the XML - I'd like to hear Sam's opinion on this (with his > feed-validator-author's hat on). The largest classes of errors deal with escaping and encoding - and incorrect content type. - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 5 19:06:20 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA03584 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 19:06:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA5NtBEr020201; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 15:55:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA5NtBZO020200; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 15:55:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA5NtA06020183; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 15:55:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA5NtFui018492; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 16:55:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6Q00918D42HH@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM>; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 16:55:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.204.150]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6Q00LTLD42OZ@mail.sun.net>; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 16:55:14 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 15:55:12 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Observations on the "error" discussion In-reply-to: <3CFB3132-2F03-11D9-8F8B-000393753936@gbiv.com> To: "Roy T. Fielding" Cc: Paul Hoffman / IMC , Atom WG Message-id: <21C5F871-2F86-11D9-AA29-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <9981361BB45395BDEBEDCFE2@diva.verity.com> <3CFB3132-2F03-11D9-8F8B-000393753936@gbiv.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 5, 2004, at 12:18 AM, Roy T. Fielding wrote: (lots of stuff ... ) > Sending feedback to the HTTP server is a bad idea. (lots more stuff ... ) While I grant the force of Roy's arguments, I have two points of disagreement. First, my experience of feed errors does not accord with his hypotheses; they are often in places that can be deterministically detected by a client and helpful feedback provided. Second, and this is crucial, the error reporting is completely at the discretion of the server. The server can, if and only if it chooses, provide a ServiceError URI. If so, it's presumably ready to get reports and will do something more useful than dump them into logs/error_log. If it's getting too many complaints to handle, or the complaints are malformed and not a source of useful information, all it needs to do is stop providing the URI and it'll stop getting them. (Although in either of these cases, they are probably usefully diagnostic of problems in the system that would benefit from someone's attention). By Roy's analogy with WebDAV, if there is widespread deployment of clients that (a) are incorrect in their intepretation of the spec and (b) are prone to griping voluminously at ServiceError URIs, then servers will stop providing ServiceError URIs. If not, some will provide them and this will be helpful in shaking errors out of the system. To summarize, this *could* be misused, and it *could* be a source of high-volume irritation, but if it's clear that it can always be turned off by the server, then I think the benefit exceeds the (possible) cost. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 5 20:25:31 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA09720 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 20:25:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA61E0ah051111; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 17:14:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA61E0ta051109; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 17:14:00 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from picanmix.dev.day.com (bsl-rtr.day.com [212.249.34.130]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA61DxWR051035 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 17:13:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fielding@gbiv.com) Received: from eu-mail.day.com (eu-mail.dev.day.com [10.0.0.30]) by picanmix.dev.day.com (DAY) with ESMTP id iA61DoL27588; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 02:13:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from [10.2.8.58] ([10.2.8.58]) by eu-mail.day.com (Lotus Domino Release 5.0.8) with ESMTP id 2004110602134913:5947 ; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 02:13:49 +0100 In-Reply-To: <21C5F871-2F86-11D9-AA29-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> References: <9981361BB45395BDEBEDCFE2@diva.verity.com> <3CFB3132-2F03-11D9-8F8B-000393753936@gbiv.com> <21C5F871-2F86-11D9-AA29-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Message-Id: <1B7507AC-2F91-11D9-8F8B-000393753936@gbiv.com> Cc: Atom WG From: "Roy T. Fielding" Subject: Re: Observations on the "error" discussion Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 17:13:46 -0800 To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on eu-mail/Day(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at 11/06/2004 02:13:49 AM, Serialize by Router on eu-mail/Day(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at 11/06/2004 02:13:51 AM, Serialize complete at 11/06/2004 02:13:51 AM Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Nov 5, 2004, at 3:55 PM, Tim Bray wrote: > While I grant the force of Roy's arguments, I have two points of > disagreement. First, my experience of feed errors does not accord > with his hypotheses; they are often in places that can be > deterministically detected by a client and helpful feedback provided. I wouldn't disagree with that -- my point was that sending it in an automated HTTP message means it will go to the wrong person. > Second, and this is crucial, the error reporting is completely at the > discretion of the server. The server can, if and only if it chooses, > provide a ServiceError URI. If so, it's presumably ready to get > reports and will do something more useful than dump them into > logs/error_log. How is that configured? Is it an httpd config setting, a script setting, or data within the feed heading? Is it somewhere that a webmaster supporting several thousand feeds is going to be able to control? How does that tie in to managing a separate resource per feed for the purpose of accepting error notifications. How does that information get to the right person who can fix the software? How is that consistent with other folks claiming that the notification contains no data on what the error was, let alone how to fix? How many web servers do you know of that allow anyone on the Internet to write unknown amounts of data to a location somewhere other than a controlled logs directory? As opposed to, for example, just encouraging readers to send a friendly comment to the person whose writing is being syndicated. Quite frankly, I find this whole discussion to be rather silly. Keep it simple and you will succeed -- bog it down with a bunch of questionable features and people like me won't even bother to read the specification (and I read quite a few more than the average software developer). Someone who is concerned about the quality of their feed will test that feed with clients that can point out errors, assuming there exist client authors who don't have MSIE disease and are advised that showing errors is a good thing. Someone who doesn't care about the quality of their feed will neither test it nor enable something like ServiceError. The only thing that automated error reporting accomplishes is to make the protocol harder to completely implement, while encouraging a bunch of well-meaning authors to waste bits by sending error URIs for feeds that they already know are valid. Anyway, I've said my bit and feel no more need to elaborate. I won't implement it. ....Roy From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 5 20:35:03 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA10453 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 20:35:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA61QMZn054548; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 17:26:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA61QMpZ054547; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 17:26:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail3.panix.com (mail3.panix.com [166.84.1.74]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA61QL0u054521 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 17:26:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lgonze@panix.com) Received: from panix2.panix.com (panix2.panix.com [166.84.1.2]) by mail3.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9804C981D3 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 20:26:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by panix2.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) with ESMTP id iA61QO102284 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 20:26:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 15:26:24 -1000 (HST) From: Lucas Gonze Reply-To: lucas@gonze.com Cc: Atom WG Subject: Re: Observations on the "error" discussion In-Reply-To: <1B7507AC-2F91-11D9-8F8B-000393753936@gbiv.com> Message-ID: References: <9981361BB45395BDEBEDCFE2@diva.verity.com> <3CFB3132-2F03-11D9-8F8B-000393753936@gbiv.com> <21C5F871-2F86-11D9-AA29-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <1B7507AC-2F91-11D9-8F8B-000393753936@gbiv.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Speaking as a publisher who cares a lot about valid output, I'd much prefer an error checking service that gave me reports via a feed. Accepting reports from user software is likely to create a mess and eat up resources. - Lucas From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Nov 6 11:12:19 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA18063 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 11:12:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA6Fwb7q039964; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 07:58:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA6Fwbcf039963; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 07:58:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.201]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA6FwbKZ039920 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 07:58:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so111612rnz for ; Sat, 06 Nov 2004 07:58:30 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=rsWBdYr0R1f83VUQo91NMsBHgmfwaAX7outGPDl7o3Rnir1QCSZmVx6O2REoTphCjkHs5llFwNCuQ0L1ya1I4scx7TK07dWL8ar/P9q4xgVG1wluKSqvBpM503Z52JmqmgZbh8zSQN2hQHFFIDRDO+yAJ24GYjoQ7wfXnZlYlhU= Received: by 10.38.10.71 with SMTP id 71mr641292rnj; Sat, 06 Nov 2004 07:58:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 07:58:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04110607587e38485b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 16:58:30 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: "Next-Generation" Tools Cc: SVGDeveloper@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [Apologies if you receive multiple copies of this - I'm posting to several lists separately] Andrew Watt and myself would be grateful if anyone could help with research for a forthcoming book on syndication technologies [1]. Andrew describes the *big* question in a blog post [2]: [[ One of the tasks is to review information aggregators. The number of aggregators is huge. I would be interested in any feedback from satisfied users of information aggregators which allow long-term storage of data derived from RSS and Atom feeds and which allow user-specified filtering in the information aggregator. The basic tasks of adding feeds and displaying their content seems to be adequately or better handled by a host of aggregators. But the notions of long-term storage of interesting information and the ability to filter information inside feeds seems to be less adequately implemented. Any feedback on those aspects of currently available tools, particularly tools which implement these notions well, would be great. Anybody who is developing what I would think of as a "next generation" aggregator and who doesn't want to make their product public quite yet would be welcome to email me at SVG Developer at aol dot com. I would be happy to mention interesting upcoming tools which provide something that "the crowd" doesn't yet support. ]] Of particular interest would be details of any systems exploiting the explicit categorization potential in feeds - maybe publishing more than just and/or making use of such data in a feed consumer. Thanks, Danny. [1] "Beginning RSS and Atom Programming" http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0764579169/qid=1099751292/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-4667385-7012020?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 [2] http://www.tfosorcim.org/archives/000228.html -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Nov 6 17:39:07 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA12230 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 17:39:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA6MO3t0022036; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 14:24:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA6MO3kv022035; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 14:24:03 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.197]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA6MNwCc021966 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 14:23:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from randymorin@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id g11so251444rne for ; Sat, 06 Nov 2004 14:24:02 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=lxIjCCXdNaogk2HtpHizNhZOXLajMUOERVni0PXVBI6G7N7pMxf3oDL01/TH6yO/atsbbxDZzWEGQL/hUYVhXHYc34H6vU2DDEgz/pTqINUq7UXpjvEwWs+FsHNHE5OkKox7di/P0lIwyrklQIpuhqSb8MtuIy+oeIKSCyntylM= Received: by 10.38.86.15 with SMTP id j15mr825458rnb; Sat, 06 Nov 2004 14:24:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.81.64 with HTTP; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 14:24:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 17:24:02 -0500 From: Randy Charles Morin Reply-To: randy@kbcafe.com To: Atomlist Subject: Schematron Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wrote a schematron for Atom 0.3. http://www.kbcafe.com/rss/rss.schematron.xml It also includes schematron schema for RSS 0.91, 1.0, 2.0 and OPML and a bunch of RSS modules. It's not perfect, but a start. There's also an online validator based on this schematron. http://www.kbcafe.com/rss/?guid=20041030111147 I'll update it in the spring when Atom 1.0 is release :) Hope u like, Randy P.S. Sorry, I'm not actively following the list, so CC me on replies. Thanks. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 10:37:14 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA20873 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 10:37:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8FK7tc085938; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 07:20:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8FK7f4085937; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 07:20:07 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8FK7d2085836 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 07:20:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 39317 invoked by uid 17064); 8 Nov 2004 15:19:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.20]) ([83.112.10.2]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 8 Nov 2004 15:19:53 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <9F269E5A-3199-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: Atom Syntax From: Henry Story Subject: Question regarding atom:published and atom:updated Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:19:45 +0100 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As I understand it, two Entries in draft-ietf-atompub-format-03 [1], can only be identified if they have the same id. Another way of saying this is that if two entries have the same id, then they are two different versions of the same Entry. This leads me to wonder if I am correctly reading the following passages. In Section 5.8 it is stated that: The "atom:published" element is a Date construct indicating an instant in time associated with an event early in the life cycle of the entry. Typically, atom:published will be associated with the initial creation or first availability of the resource. My reading of this is that atom:published specifies the date of publication of the first version of the Entry to be published. Which is to say that it cannot change between versions of an Entry, ie. Entries with the same id. The "atom:updated" element is a Date construct indicating the most recent instant in time when a change to the entry was made that the publisher wishes to bring to the attention of subscribers. For example, such changes might not include minor adjustments like spelling and grammatical corrections. My reading of this then is that the atom:updated date is the publication time of the version of the entry in which the text appears. Ie. two Entry constructs with the same id can (and usually will) have different updated dates. As I understand it we have the something along the lines of the following change from draft-ietf-atompub-format-01 [1] atom:created -> not specified atom:issued -> atom:published atom:modified -> atom:updated Henry Story [1] http://ietf.levkowetz.com/drafts/atompub/format/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 11:13:45 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA25591 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 11:13:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8G47Qf000205; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 08:04:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8G47b0000204; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 08:04:07 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8G46LT000197 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 08:04:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 83640 invoked by uid 17064); 8 Nov 2004 16:04:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.10.2]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 8 Nov 2004 16:04:09 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: <418571C8.1080008@franklinmint.fm> References: <41842242.5050305@franklinmint.fm> <418571C8.1080008@franklinmint.fm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: reject PaceErrVerb, and maybe PaceServiceError, too Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:04:05 +0100 To: Atom Syntax X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I won't have time to work on PaceErrVerb and I think Asbjorn is happy for it to be moved out of the Atom group. so +1 on closing PaceErrVerb. Henry Story On 1 Nov 2004, at 00:14, Robert Sayre wrote: > > Close PaceErrVerb. It's a nice idea that will never get done in this > WG, if it's even possible at all. > > PaceServiceError could work. However, we have no specified notion of > Errors or Conformance, so it's tough to tell whether the proposal > would be helpful. If we come up with a status quo position on > conformance, then I would definitely want it in 1.0. A Dead Letter > Office is better than nothing. If we decide on something better, then > it could be something added later if required. > > Robert Sayre > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 12:00:53 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA01385 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 12:00:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8Gp7I1016409; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 08:51:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8Gp7Ne016408; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 08:51:07 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk ([161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8Gp6tq016179 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 08:51:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA8GdHxm023287; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:39:23 GMT In-Reply-To: <9F269E5A-3199-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> References: <9F269E5A-3199-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-1--781811561; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: Cc: Atom Syntax From: Graham Subject: Re: Question regarding atom:published and atom:updated Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:39:15 +0000 To: Henry Story X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-1--781811561 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8 Nov 2004, at 3:19 pm, Henry Story wrote: > atom:created -> not specified Yes. > atom:issued -> atom:published Near enough (in that issued never had a formal definition). > atom:modified -> atom:updated Not really. There's not a 1:1 relationship between modifications and updates, though there is some overlap. What was the question, anyway? Graham --Apple-Mail-1--781811561 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMTA4MTYzOTE2WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUmT3YBMfdsQLAGeZILMYLoN9v E/MweAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEAsOfFfBPQF8Sn5hpC/1wBaVqU RMYmYEy+NOEOM3dlFB6WbEOSXoliv/d8IhHj9xPZOULzl6RcDDZKixwFIbKwV6rRY1RfqzOtfqUw Mms9KTP9f/fa8UMT1SMMb9eSZNKkZpm2vkb/g8y1M1JMO1+9y4ZBuKsY8teY8dS9IN9MnsWWsomi 2claVnGD370oApM3csjc7++oHaO/h76QIRp70rQ+8OtFNn7FU0YYKP/X+peYVBsN0ZBu7fSrIwb+ OyjFtRuNbIuDepweGJAdG4pbG0tIiFZI+hi+9TiwxbFwMobhkSPRlABjdXCZxuxavR4x3FZiiThe zomZrJFBs3+2PAAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-1--781811561-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 12:07:25 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA02085 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 12:07:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8H05DM018896; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 09:00:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8H05Pl018895; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 09:00:05 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8H05gP018889 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 09:00:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 29079 invoked by uid 17064); 8 Nov 2004 17:00:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.10.2]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 8 Nov 2004 17:00:08 -0000 In-Reply-To: References: <9F269E5A-3199-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Atom Syntax From: Henry Story Subject: Re: Question regarding atom:published and atom:updated Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:00:04 +0100 To: Graham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was just checking that I had understood the spec correctly. In short: - the publication date is really the "first publication date of the entry" and - the update date is the "date this version of the entry was published". Looks like I am on the right track it seems. Henry On 8 Nov 2004, at 17:39, Graham wrote: > > What was the question, anyway? > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 14:41:24 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA19216 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:41:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8JSEJw079647; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 11:28:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8JSEAf079646; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 11:28:14 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8JSDfE079617 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 11:28:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8JSFNH028375 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 12:28:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6V00K99KR2NS@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 12:28:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6V00L9LKR2OZ@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 12:28:14 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 11:28:18 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Posted PaceCategoryElement To: Atom WG Message-id: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Somehow, we don't seem to have any category element in the format-draft. Huh? It's in RSS2 and it's widely deployed, although it hasn't been all that useful. Also I note that the protocol design team is worrying about querying and defining categories. I don't see anything wrong with RSS2's category element, so I've proposed something along the same lines: http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceCategoryElement -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 15:11:11 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA24163 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:11:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8JxORn091357; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 11:59:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8JxOEG091356; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 11:59:24 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.195]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8JxN5C091349 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 11:59:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id g11so578557rne for ; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 11:59:00 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=pfpAUf5d7pjpHg89MvCYvqiXI9BJtH1qyPoLyzPK7eJkOhvg39OSRXu1tPxvSZD4olduemZhQEt5BRxKCb/3PSN4nswi6ku6SBmP81mnlLPUx8Fg8Ki3JiyVV1Ngk6CERrpO1VbMacQpM6kauHNLU1JXzhOKWYhs9BFtnjPOwb4= Received: by 10.38.161.76 with SMTP id j76mr223633rne; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 11:59:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.151.28 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 11:59:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3f1451f504110811591a783e34@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:59:00 -0500 From: Joe Gregorio Reply-To: Joe Gregorio To: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 11:28:18 -0800, Tim Bray wrote: > > Somehow, we don't seem to have any category element in the > format-draft. Huh? It's in RSS2 and it's widely deployed, although it > hasn't been all that useful. Also I note that the protocol design team > is worrying about querying and defining categories. I don't see > anything wrong with RSS2's category element, so I've proposed something > along the same lines: > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceCategoryElement -Tim Looks good. I think allowing multiple atom:category elements *and* allowing the textual content of the element to be a "/" separated multi-part string is a bit too much. I think we should pick one or the other mechanism, not both. If we do go with a separated list, I would prefer a white space separated list as opposed to "/". I will point to the HTML link elements @rel attribute as prior art. What value of @domain should be used if a pre-existing classification scheme is not used? Should we mimic the dublin core definition of 'subject' which says: "Recommended best practice is to select a value from a controlled vocabulary or formal classification scheme." Thanks, -joe -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 15:42:46 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA28013 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:42:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8KWQ7U000278; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 12:32:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8KWQW3000277; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 12:32:26 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from localhost.localdomain (air643.startdedicated.com [69.64.38.51]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8KWQ2q000246 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 12:32:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from david@blojsom.com) Received: (qmail 26434 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2004 20:18:19 -0000 Received: from localhost (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 8 Nov 2004 20:18:19 -0000 Received: from air643.startdedicated.com (air643.startdedicated.com [69.64.38.51]) by webmail.blojsom.com (IMP) with HTTP for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:18:19 -0500 Message-ID: <1099945099.418fd48b1b858@webmail.blojsom.com> Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:18:19 -0500 From: David Czarnecki To: Atom WG Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <3f1451f504110811591a783e34@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3f1451f504110811591a783e34@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.2 X-Originating-IP: 69.64.38.51 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Joe Gregorio : > > On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 11:28:18 -0800, Tim Bray wrote: > > > > Somehow, we don't seem to have any category element in the > > format-draft. Huh? It's in RSS2 and it's widely deployed, although it > > hasn't been all that useful. Also I note that the protocol design team > > is worrying about querying and defining categories. I don't see > > anything wrong with RSS2's category element, so I've proposed something > > along the same lines: > > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceCategoryElement -Tim > > Looks good. > > I think allowing multiple atom:category elements > *and* allowing the textual content of the element to be a "/" separated > multi-part string is a bit too much. I think we should pick one or the > other mechanism, not both. I read the textual content part as that would be the specific category an item was posted to, not that the / would separate the categories. Example: /music/NIN/ Meaning this item was posted into the specific NIN category. Is this your thinking Tim? > > If we do go with a separated list, I would prefer a white space separated > list > as opposed to "/". I will point to the HTML link elements @rel > attribute as prior art. What about the following? Nine Inch Nails You'd want, Nine+Inch+Nails? > > What value of @domain should be used if a pre-existing classification > scheme is not used? Should this be an optional attribute as with RSS 2.0? > > Should we mimic the dublin core definition of 'subject' which says: > "Recommended best practice is to select a value from > a controlled vocabulary or formal classification scheme." > > > > Thanks, > -joe > > -- > Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 16:05:04 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA01692 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:05:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8KvbRg006167; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 12:57:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8Kvb2c006166; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 12:57:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8Kvam5006123 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 12:57:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <20041108205723012009ljnqe>; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:57:33 +0000 Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:57:21 -0700 Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <1099945099.418fd48b1b858@webmail.blojsom.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, November 8, 2004, at 01:18 PM, David Czarnecki wrote: > Quoting Joe Gregorio : >> I think allowing multiple atom:category elements >> *and* allowing the textual content of the element to be a "/" >> separated >> multi-part string is a bit too much. I think we should pick one or the >> other mechanism, not both. > > I read the textual content part as that would be the specific category > an item > was posted to, not that the / would separate the categories. Example: > > /music/NIN/ > > Meaning this item was posted into the specific NIN category. > > Is this your thinking Tim? > >> If we do go with a separated list, I would prefer a white space >> separated >> list >> as opposed to "/". I will point to the HTML link elements @rel >> attribute as prior art. > > What about the following? > > Nine Inch Nails > > You'd want, Nine+Inch+Nails? -1 to multiple categories in one . +1 to multiple s. -1 to any MUSTs for how categories are to be expressed ("slash-separated hierarchical"...). -0.9 to any SHOULDs on how categories are to be expressed. +0.1 to @domain being optional. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 16:08:18 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA02029 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:08:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8L2RYt007379; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:02:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8L2Rpc007378; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:02:27 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40827.mail.yahoo.com (web40827.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.92.74]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA8L2RGu007344 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:02:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 97940 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Nov 2004 21:02:26 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=5tFidz2GcBLUyhOCXlKEbXK9n2a3x5JuLQ5ol1xPNbGh9MAUYleH+LzEPIMCtcjRpfKY/nRSaTrQWsj3uDblCXc+iQQdw/5bo9v2AP1wG/gh95HcKR93F7Yxf5fWoVmfcPJmlhO/Aap2Om61cB55GlEn0xFO8yiUGITIvihHG6w= ; Message-ID: <20041108210226.97935.qmail@web40827.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [131.107.71.227] by web40827.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 13:02:26 PST Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:02:26 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement To: Tim Bray , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --- Tim Bray wrote: > > Somehow, we don't seem to have any category element > in the > format-draft. Huh? It's in RSS2 and it's widely > deployed, although it > hasn't been all that useful. > I don't see > anything wrong with RSS2's category element, so I've > proposed something > along the same lines: It hasn't been all that useful yet you want to propose it is added to Atom? ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 16:10:19 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA02228 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:10:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8L3ilN007800; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:03:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8L3i1V007799; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:03:44 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8L3huD007785 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:03:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8L3lui004192 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:03:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6V004MKP6ATH@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:03:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6V008HIP6AGM@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:03:46 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 13:03:49 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement In-reply-to: <3f1451f504110811591a783e34@mail.gmail.com> To: Joe Gregorio Cc: Atom WG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <3f1451f504110811591a783e34@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 8, 2004, at 11:59 AM, Joe Gregorio wrote: >> http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceCategoryElement -Tim > > Looks good. > > I think allowing multiple atom:category elements > *and* allowing the textual content of the element to be a "/" separated > multi-part string is a bit too much. I think we should pick one or the > other mechanism, not both. Consider the categories in http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2004/11/06/WearingFast - I think it has two categories, each of which has a /-separated "pathname". > If we do go with a separated list, I would prefer a white space > separated list > as opposed to "/". I will point to the HTML link elements @rel > attribute as prior art. Hmm, I don't care that much about the syntax, but check my example again, some of the category names have white space in them. > What value of @domain should be used if a pre-existing classification > scheme is not used? domain= is not required. In my own case, I'd make up a value in www.tbray.org/ongoing/ > Should we mimic the dublin core definition of 'subject' which says: > "Recommended best practice is to select a value from > a controlled vocabulary or formal classification scheme." I can go for that. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 16:14:44 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA02524 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:14:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8L6nmj008738; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:06:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8L6naF008737; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:06:49 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8L6mqr008726 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:06:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8L6rui006236 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:06:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6V00GS5PBE2C@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:06:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6V008L7PBEGJ@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:06:50 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 13:06:53 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement In-reply-to: <20041108210226.97935.qmail@web40827.mail.yahoo.com> To: Dare Obasanjo Cc: Atom WG Message-id: <1D9627A3-31CA-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20041108210226.97935.qmail@web40827.mail.yahoo.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 8, 2004, at 1:02 PM, Dare Obasanjo wrote: >> I don't see >> anything wrong with RSS2's category element, so I've >> proposed something >> along the same lines: > > It hasn't been all that useful yet you want to propose > it is added to Atom? It's widely-deployed in practice, it's cheap & easy to generate, it's easy to ignore, and who knows, maybe something good will start falling out. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 16:20:46 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA02990 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:20:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8LEQaN010130; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:14:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8LEQT6010129; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:14:26 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from cat-proof.de (cat.cat-proof.de [213.239.198.176]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8LEPMk010113 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:14:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sc@itst.net) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (p50816B38.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.129.107.56]) by cat-proof.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA09D340B665 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 22:11:33 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <418FE1BF.2030408@itst.net> Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 22:14:39 +0100 From: Sascha Carlin User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom WG Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.86.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +1 for (multiple) s -1 for domains if req, +1 if optional For instance we could then define a domain pointing to del.ico.us and use this category list to categorize our items. Or we could point to our own categorization scheme and use our own categories. The document behind the URI could be human legible, providing information about the categories. Just my fast first 2 cents ;) -- Sascha Carlin website: http://www.itst.org/ blog: http://www.itst.org/web/ mailto: sc@itst.net icq: 99327847 skype: saschacarlin mobile: +49 177 3074952 gpg: http://www.itst.org/sc_at_itst_dot_net.asc From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 16:30:52 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA04026 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:30:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8LNHhd012616; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:23:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8LNHvC012615; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:23:17 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.193]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8LNGIe012606 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:23:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id g11so600886rne for ; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 13:23:20 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=E2i2g3tkB2Wn4p9rV0e8jw0LASUg2Jkzv6k5UMmlfPPi/SZiBihjSGfvixFYYtVDzYrFL22MyLFsSwk+eK9KFu/OvIxBnO0uJYMVrdH1KasfCJaH8Rmxp1pKnMcHyAh/RLgirgIkbzopH4NrfVHKqki+hck9QIOM5qmrGMwnHEQ= Received: by 10.38.86.18 with SMTP id j18mr281459rnb; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 13:23:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.151.28 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:23:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3f1451f5041108132367683e9c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:23:20 -0500 From: Joe Gregorio Reply-To: Joe Gregorio To: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <3f1451f504110811591a783e34@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 13:03:49 -0800, Tim Bray wrote: > On Nov 8, 2004, at 11:59 AM, Joe Gregorio wrote: > > >> http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceCategoryElement -Tim > > > > Looks good. > > > > I think allowing multiple atom:category elements > > *and* allowing the textual content of the element to be a "/" separated > > multi-part string is a bit too much. I think we should pick one or the > > other mechanism, not both. > > Consider the categories in > http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2004/11/06/WearingFast - I think > it has two categories, each of which has a /-separated "pathname". Ok, so the / separates path elements and not new keywords/subjects. That works for me. (Maybe incude more verbage or an example of this in the Pace?) > > > If we do go with a separated list, I would prefer a white space > > separated list > > as opposed to "/". I will point to the HTML link elements @rel > > attribute as prior art. > > Hmm, I don't care that much about the syntax, but check my example > again, some of the category names have white space in them. Since I misunderstood the use of the '/' just ignore what I said about preferring a space. Thanks, -joe -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 17:02:35 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA07556 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:02:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8LsSm1024019; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:54:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8LsSuu024018; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:54:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8LsNGh023971 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:54:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8LsRui004982 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:54:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6V00G9MRIR2C@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:54:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6V00NTORIF0X@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:54:15 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 13:54:17 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement In-reply-to: <418FE1BF.2030408@itst.net> To: Sascha Carlin Cc: Atom WG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418FE1BF.2030408@itst.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Good enough. Initial feedback is: - need better explanation on use of slashes - @domain needs to be optional -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 17:02:45 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA07581 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:02:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8Lv8WQ024654; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:57:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8Lv89W024653; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:57:08 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8Lv7Ee024638 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:57:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA8LuA6l017630; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 21:56:20 GMT In-Reply-To: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-3--762802664; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: Cc: Atom WG From: Graham Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 21:56:04 +0000 To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-3--762802664 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8 Nov 2004, at 7:28 pm, Tim Bray wrote: > Somehow, we don't seem to have any category element in the > format-draft. Huh? It's in RSS2 and it's widely deployed, although > it hasn't been all that useful. Also I note that the protocol design > team is worrying about querying and defining categories. I don't see > anything wrong with RSS2's category element, so I've proposed > something along the same lines: > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceCategoryElement I think a single plain text non-hierachical, no domain nonsense element is all that needs to be in the core. Slightly OT, but why did you bother to define a category construct if you're only using it once? It's not good for readability (but then neither is any part of our current template). Graham --Apple-Mail-3--762802664 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMTA4MjE1NjA1WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQU5ID69Uui0nAV+mySbfHDL6XL H8IweAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEAOTx7f93NmEa5EpLJPLGN2kld RIlvHxFBZrR3K0+z2CF35RjqW9rPOvaSvm1QnYWjm9STDyafdEOy86Hty33+FavAQW9EBfSi3hkX 3VtM9F9fA153ddt8k+QFajKgHBQRnELIKxr8V9FC+BFbQjPTUTBxNTpvk2mnBUxSbORmsLPkeKTQ 0Yjp0qnlIxgus5lx9fHeRqGzUpd1tPZcY/GhsN67OrYSlCKzebRbvtkzsCsGfb5qztezecmCzCdy ALGNCI24nIB5y5mpifopXUmpo+cBxoCHRRf71GSphfankWmSWECnenW/9dGagYHUP0xrspXF5Vp0 sV4kWjxkK6tlUQAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-3--762802664-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 17:03:59 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA07668 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:03:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8Ltreb024518; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:55:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8LtrCo024517; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:55:53 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8LtqxQ024498 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:55:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8Ltvui005873 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:55:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6V00GHBRL92C@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:55:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6V00MR1RL8VE@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:55:56 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 13:56:00 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement In-reply-to: To: Antone Roundy Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 8, 2004, at 12:57 PM, Antone Roundy wrote: > -1 to any MUSTs for how categories are to be expressed > ("slash-separated hierarchical"...). > -0.9 to any SHOULDs on how categories are to be expressed. I think the this/that/the-other usage is well-enough established now to qualify as prior art. Anyhow, if you want to have your own not-hierarchical categorization scheme, you can, just keep it in your own namespace. You can even put it inside atom:category. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 17:05:46 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA07854 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:05:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8LvGAZ024669; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:57:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8LvGSM024668; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:57:16 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail11.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail11.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.27]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA8LvFt6024657 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:57:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 37248 messnum 15270597 invoked from network[83.70.255.40/83-70-255-40.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 8 Nov 2004 21:57:14 -0000 Received: from 83-70-255-40.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?192.168.123.143?) (83.70.255.40) by mail11.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 37248) with SMTP; 8 Nov 2004 21:57:14 -0000 Message-ID: <418FEBB0.9020101@dehora.net> Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 21:57:04 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8a1) Gecko/20040520 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom WG Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > > Somehow, we don't seem to have any category element in the > format-draft. Huh? It's in RSS2 and it's widely deployed, although it > hasn't been all that useful. Also I note that the protocol design team > is worrying about querying and defining categories. I don't see > anything wrong with RSS2's category element, so I've proposed something > along the same lines: > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceCategoryElement -Tim Good idea, -1 on the details. If there can be zero or more, The categories should be placed in an atom:categories block (we made this mistake before with entries and solved in inversely via the atom:head element). The idea of a path based syntax is overconstraining. The @domain attribute is redundant - let people use URIs if they want to use URIs. Feed level catgeories are dubious if only because a whole side-thread will start on catgegory defaulting. This would be enough: atom:entry - atom:categories? - atom:category + cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 17:09:50 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA08388 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:09:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8M4ER5026286; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:04:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8M4EgM026285; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:04:14 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8M4E94026278 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:04:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8M4Iui012164 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:04:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6V004GORZ5TH@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 15:04:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6V00NW8RZ50X@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 15:04:18 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:04:20 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement In-reply-to: To: Graham Cc: Atom WG Message-id: <240C2560-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 8, 2004, at 1:56 PM, Graham wrote: > Slightly OT, but why did you bother to define a category construct if > you're only using it once? It's not good for readability Twice. Once in feed and once in entry. There are a lot of "Constructs" defined for precisely this reason, i.e. two usages. If a lot of people agree with Graham that this is awkward, I'm sure our editors would be happy to address it. You could replicate it or, for the occurrence in atom:head you could say 'For details, see the description in "atom:entry"'. I think the latter would be an improvement, but I don't think it's a big deal. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 17:12:33 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA08714 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:12:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8M73dv027278; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:07:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8M735O027277; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:07:03 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8M6vXn027232 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:06:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8M71NH009046 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:07:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6V00LWAS3OIX@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 15:07:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6V00NWWS3O0X@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 15:07:01 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:07:02 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Work Queue Rotation #12 To: Atom WG Cc: Joe Gregorio , Mark Nottingham , Robert Sayre Message-id: <84DE3206-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Current issues list: http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/AtomPubIssuesList Once again, feel free to object if Paul & I have mis-read the sense of the group, it happens. PaceContentOrLink + PaceOptionalAlternateLink: the combo has rough consensus, accept it. PaceDateModified: No consensus. Close it. PaceErrVerb + PaceServiceErr: No consensus, but not decisively rejected. Put them on the revisit list and recommend that those in favor rework a bit based on the discussion. PacePersonConstruct: I think (but feel free to shout me down) that we have rough consensus that this is a good idea, that its name could be improved, and that it belongs in atom:entry, not "Person Constructs". If people feel that's roughly right, I'd be happy to trust Rob and MNot's editorial judgment to figure out how to work that consensus into the draft. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 17:19:11 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA09264 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:19:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8MDcb3029688; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:13:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8MDckb029687; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:13:38 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.205]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8MDbRi029681 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:13:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so194644rns for ; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:13:38 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=tkyc1LyPhC8JAUsaLdv+2vf9qEOxnqa2q09iZO+FQlyEjidh5CdwXQXIxeVqB/Y6SRBsewPrMQz0Cs5nR3k1+wU6yEFfdaPsIhClJasTxNRJ1zByAEx5s5t9Pgksj+H6PugY5HZ97ryIN+mMbR9NHVVA5m0KbztuHVLh8Naftn0= Received: by 10.38.10.71 with SMTP id 71mr282955rnj; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:13:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:13:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd041108141341fc1c4f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 23:13:38 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement Cc: Dare Obasanjo , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <1D9627A3-31CA-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20041108210226.97935.qmail@web40827.mail.yahoo.com> <1D9627A3-31CA-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think a category element could be useful, but I have a few questions first: > It's widely-deployed in practice, Where? Any examples of its use by producers? Any examples of its use by consumers? What categorization schemes are in use with RSS 2.0? Are all common categorization schemes compatible with the provided structure? (hierarchy, tagging etc) Are all common categorization schemes compatible with the slash delimiter? What is the significance of the order of the keywords (if any)? Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 17:20:45 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA09482 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:20:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8MDCGd029360; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:13:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8MDCoU029359; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:13:12 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8MDBFY029343 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:13:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8MDGui017192 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:13:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6V00LWCSE3IX@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 15:13:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6V00NYOSE20X@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 15:13:15 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:13:17 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat To: Atom WG Message-id: <6451CEF8-31D3-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT See http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat The world can use Atom, sooner rather than later. The return-on-investment of further WG time invested in polishing something that's already pretty good is starting to be very unattractive. Particularly when the Protocol draft seriously needs work and progress. Note that this has not been formally placed at the front of the queue yet. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 17:28:25 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA10343 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:28:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8MNL6t033822; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:23:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8MNKW9033821; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:23:20 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8MNJhK033812 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:23:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8MNOui023294 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:23:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6V00L1VSUZIX@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 15:23:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6V00MWNSUZVE@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 15:23:23 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:23:24 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement In-reply-to: <418FEBB0.9020101@dehora.net> To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= Cc: Atom WG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418FEBB0.9020101@dehora.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iA8MNKhK033814 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Nov 8, 2004, at 1:57 PM, Bill de hÓra wrote: >> http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceCategoryElement -Tim > > Good idea, -1 on the details. > > If there can be zero or more, The categories should be placed in an > atom:categories block (we made this mistake before with entries and > solved in inversely via the atom:head element). Why? It's clearly a good idea to separate the header material and the entries because some of the header material applies to the entries. It's not obvious to me what the benefit is from pouring the categories into a block. I'm not against it, just having trouble seeing where it would help. > The idea of a path based syntax is overconstraining. Well, there's a lot of prior art there, and for the default text, it's handy to have some shared understanding of structure. If you want to use your own non-hierarchical category text, you can, just put it in a different namespace. Hmm... would you be happier with something like this? this/that/the other foo/bar/baz funky non-hierarchical categorization info > The @domain attribute is redundant - let people use URIs if they > want to use URIs. Once again, just grabbing prior art from RSS2. Why change things without a good reason? > Feed level catgeories are dubious if only because a whole side-thread > will start on catgegory defaulting. Hmm... except for, people do cat-specific feeds. If others are against them, I'm not going to make a big fuss. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 17:29:21 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA10515 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:29:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8MKwZh032322; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:20:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8MKwBf032321; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:20:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8MKvqr032277 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:20:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA8MJYj3024279; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 22:19:40 GMT In-Reply-To: <240C2560-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <240C2560-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-4--761394350; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <4471C014-31D4-11D9-ADD6-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Cc: Atom WG From: Graham Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 22:19:33 +0000 To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-4--761394350 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8 Nov 2004, at 10:04 pm, Tim Bray wrote: > Twice. Once in feed and once in entry. There are a lot of > "Constructs" defined for precisely this reason, i.e. two usages. If a > lot of people agree with Graham that this is awkward, I'm sure our > editors would be happy to address it. You could replicate it or, for > the occurrence in atom:head you could say 'For details, see the > description in "atom:entry"'. I think the latter would be an > improvement, but I don't think it's a big deal. Introducing new terminology that everyone has to look up elsewhere in the document should be a last resort. If it's because we're defining head and entry separately then maybe we should notice they're 90% the same and do something about it. Graham --Apple-Mail-4--761394350 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMTA4MjIxOTMzWjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUAwYt7eRKKB6Z1ZaMQ+jUrSoc mTQweAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEAI/vTTaMzvZ8EGaxQq8NYyt5h fsNr4G+60TTPRfzyJUl4b0Pn6HI/SaRunDWWiPkZSAMVWpsr7AH4LPOvcHFvI64uLjkGQZdlkPva SVNj6wy0z65Qu1staz478MqAHAfK8crSjHjsyFPgOQ2EHcIJmkitWBJh56nEy/LtUH4hW7tWh8hG fG4JPrXtizyxrUqSt+UCejWLR7QUbNfNgG8Kz97lacxL4wIO/zYET4Q7IrZuZtY0dbCCVZgMqBTi jfFF6x2Ad03KxhU8bi+5nOpsMMgWem0r6hz1avi5ighnW5l+ys2f4vftioPJs6mhTlWfFij89Eze 4HU5XCrjS8OfIwAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-4--761394350-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 17:34:36 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA11093 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:34:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8MSMe2036029; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:28:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8MSMdO036028; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:28:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8MSLmp036007 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:28:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CRHzq-0000yH-83; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 22:28:22 +0000 Message-ID: <418FF307.5020506@franklinmint.fm> Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 17:28:23 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Bray CC: Atom WG Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat References: <6451CEF8-31D3-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <6451CEF8-31D3-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > > See http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat > > The world can use Atom, sooner rather than later. The > return-on-investment of further WG time invested in polishing something > that's already pretty good is starting to be very unattractive. > Particularly when the Protocol draft seriously needs work and progress. I would go for it, assuming judgment on a couple things currently in the queue: PaceFieldingLinks (people are already using their own rel values) PaceUpdatedDefinition (2 dissenters?) That leaves extensibility RSS2-style loose, which I don't particularly like, but I can live with it. Also, there's PaceProvideSchema. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 17:51:01 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA12468 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:51:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8MgwiD042971; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:42:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8MgwKF042970; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:42:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.193]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8Mgw3n042964 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:42:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so196441rns for ; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:42:56 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=LziThlkyurQyL96WFJEqe/J0m5y2kvXxMhgNqQMV0HoAQz8EjbFaqu0eWv0YbYWPCiKP7IlXNVmiVMy8PHdy/vVkqyuxPJSUZtiqkx1zESSsMmK6/aXLSktSZnVnkZ81nUos6e4BZJaCCCLSzr6vt+aJrjRbj84zSWNMZ+DnbEU= Received: by 10.38.179.47 with SMTP id b47mr709592rnf; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:42:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:42:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0411081442d61fbf0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 23:42:56 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= , Atom WG In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418FEBB0.9020101@dehora.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:23:24 -0800, Tim Bray wrote: > Once again, just grabbing prior art from RSS2. Could you please give some pointers to examples of this prior art. What categorization schemes are supported? Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 17:51:04 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA12494 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:51:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8MiNfu043562; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:44:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8MiNO2043561; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:44:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40806.mail.yahoo.com (web40806.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.78.183]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA8MiMak043524 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:44:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 32105 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Nov 2004 22:44:20 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=o0OZqvoYI8HtqbEYIdAtSN1+1RymV5EuW6Pwl8sQPMG9Y0f6nR7itOftKfwVVvakvQkemmy90ucDHZa4kRPrS9amOjJ2oEwUMVt3Eix0h68jb0hwx/dG02Fip5ytGBBxjh03n3IJoIAXW6NZk2gDPW2gqQEFVRVILPWJtHy7cRI= ; Message-ID: <20041108224420.32103.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [131.107.71.228] by web40806.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:44:20 PST Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:44:20 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat To: Tim Bray , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <6451CEF8-31D3-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --- Tim Bray wrote: > > See > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat > > The world can use Atom, sooner rather than later. > The > return-on-investment of further WG time invested in > polishing something > that's already pretty good is starting to be very > unattractive. > Particularly when the Protocol draft seriously needs > work and progress. -1 So far Atom is a less featureful version of RSS 2.0. I was actually thinking about that this weekend while reading Charles Miller's post at http://fishbowl.pastiche.org/2004/11/08/finally_a_use_for_atom and realizing that my internal data models in RSS Bandit haven't changed one whit because of Atom, just the parsing code. As it stands now given the current cost/benefit of Atom over RSS 2.0, the current Atom draft + categories isn't something I'd advise anyone at my employer's to use if it became an RFC nor is it something I believe we'd use on the stuff I work on directly (http://spaces.msn.com for one). ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 17:56:39 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA13405 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:56:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8Mmiw4044636; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:48:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8MmisM044635; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:48:44 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8Mmh3a044628 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:48:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8MmmNH003756 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:48:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6V00L7IU1BIX@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 15:48:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6V00MWVU1AV1@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 15:48:47 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:48:48 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement In-reply-to: <1f2ed5cd041108141341fc1c4f@mail.gmail.com> To: Danny Ayers Cc: Dare Obasanjo , Atom WG Message-id: <5A6FFFB4-31D8-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20041108210226.97935.qmail@web40827.mail.yahoo.com> <1D9627A3-31CA-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <1f2ed5cd041108141341fc1c4f@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 8, 2004, at 2:13 PM, Danny Ayers wrote: > I think a category element could be useful, but I have a few questions > first: > >> It's widely-deployed in practice, > > Where? Well, it turns out, hardly at all. I just went through a selection of a couple of dozen feeds selected from those I subscribe to, including representatives of several major blogging engines, RSS 0.9/1.0/2.0, also some big commercial publishers like the NYT and BBC. My findings: - more than half have no category information at all - of those that do, almost all are using dc:subject - I saw exactly *one* instance of RSS's element, in feeds produced by Roller So... options are: 1. put in category somewhat as I proposed it, on the grounds that it's been specified before and it's fairly clean 2. don't put in category, on the grounds that it's not been deployed 3. don't put in category but recommend the use of dc:subject Opinions? -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 17:58:12 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA13650 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:58:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8Mqief046085; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:52:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8MqiuI046084; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:52:44 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40801.mail.yahoo.com (web40801.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.78.178]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA8Mqhq0046022 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:52:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 47266 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Nov 2004 22:52:43 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=oinIdZqobBKWLXLYm2OrvSdE/2tWZxQCk3umGTMVTOdbabC45XwEZjskwhjyv7corSWt7QZuPoG+u6E8dWHazBj8OW4GzKHYNEo94bS9FObpgRTWxCh1TCNJb3MeT9tDR9kKQa4IHDdUprVeezDzjdkFSvmiW3rDJv+nk/oetu8= ; Message-ID: <20041108225243.47264.qmail@web40801.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [131.107.71.225] by web40801.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:52:43 PST Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:52:43 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement To: Tim Bray , Bill de "hÓra" Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --- Tim Bray wrote: > > > The idea of a path based syntax is > overconstraining. > > Well, there's a lot of prior art there, and for the > default text, it's > handy to have some shared understanding of > structure. What prior art? I've seen some stuff in Dave Winer's blog and that's about it. I'm subscribed to 154 feeds in RSS Bandit of which about 45 use the category element. Of these only 2 use some sort of hierarchy based on paths (Dave Winer & Gordon Weakliem) but even then they aren't even using the same syntax. ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 17:59:24 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA13937 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:59:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8MqCa3045747; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:52:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8MqCMa045746; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:52:12 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from cat-proof.de (cat.cat-proof.de [213.239.198.176]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8MqBen045740 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:52:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sc@itst.net) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (p50816B38.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.129.107.56]) by cat-proof.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2045340B660 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 23:49:20 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <418FF8AB.8010907@itst.net> Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 23:52:27 +0100 From: Sascha Carlin User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom WG Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418FEBB0.9020101@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: <418FEBB0.9020101@dehora.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.86.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If there can be zero or more, The categories should be placed in an > atom:categories block (we made this mistake before with entries and > solved in inversely via the atom:head element). > [...] > atom:entry > - atom:categories? > - atom:category + ++1, so to say ;) -- Sascha Carlin website: http://www.itst.org/ blog: http://www.itst.org/web/ mailto: sc@itst.net> icq: 99327847 skype: saschacarlin mobile: +49 177 3074952 gpg: http://www.itst.org/sc_at_itst_dot_net.asc From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 17:59:58 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA14066 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:59:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8MsUMQ046968; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:54:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8MsUZN046967; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:54:30 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail05.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail05.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.21]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA8MsTLK046908 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:54:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 16795 messnum 363189 invoked from network[83.70.255.40/83-70-255-40.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 8 Nov 2004 22:54:28 -0000 Received: from 83-70-255-40.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?192.168.123.143?) (83.70.255.40) by mail05.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 16795) with SMTP; 8 Nov 2004 22:54:28 -0000 Message-ID: <418FF91A.2000407@dehora.net> Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 22:54:18 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8a1) Gecko/20040520 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom WG Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418FEBB0.9020101@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > It's not obvious to me what the benefit is from pouring the categories > into a block. I'm not against it, just having trouble seeing where it > would help. The category items belong together thematically. Given entry children are unordered I'd rather not see them peppered between other elements. I claim keeping the markup tidy is important enough to justify the parent. > Well, there's a lot of prior art there, and [...] I'd say link to the prior art in the pace. > handy to have some shared understanding of structure. If you want to > use your own non-hierarchical category text, you can, just put it in a > different namespace. Hmm... would you be happier with something like this? > > > this/that/the other > foo/bar/baz > funky non-hierarchical categorization > info > I hadn't considered it; can't say if anyone else needs it. >> The @domain attribute is redundant - let people use URIs if they >> want to use URIs. > > Once again, just grabbing prior art from RSS2. Why change things > without a good reason? It's a {uri}name thingy. Do we really need another one of those? >> Feed level catgeories are dubious if only because a whole side-thread >> will start on catgegory defaulting. > > Hmm... except for, people do cat-specific feeds. That's true; but as an implementor I don't know how to tell such a feed from another. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 18:02:55 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA14716 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:02:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8MtlKr047660; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:55:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8MtlMs047659; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:55:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail06.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail06.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.22]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA8Mtkp2047579 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:55:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 39647 messnum 2831972 invoked from network[83.70.255.40/83-70-255-40.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 8 Nov 2004 22:55:45 -0000 Received: from 83-70-255-40.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?192.168.123.143?) (83.70.255.40) by mail06.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 39647) with SMTP; 8 Nov 2004 22:55:45 -0000 Message-ID: <418FF967.9030300@dehora.net> Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 22:55:35 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8a1) Gecko/20040520 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom WG Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat References: <6451CEF8-31D3-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <6451CEF8-31D3-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > > See http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat > > The world can use Atom, sooner rather than later. The > return-on-investment of further WG time invested in polishing something > that's already pretty good is starting to be very unattractive. > Particularly when the Protocol draft seriously needs work and progress. I agree, but - it's arguable that dates and links are just not coherent, which makes me doubt the spec is good enough. > Note that this has not been formally placed at the front of the queue > yet. -Tim I suggest gathering some of that consensus stuff first ;) cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 18:13:11 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA16080 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:13:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8N8UxJ054388; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:08:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8N8UCv054387; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:08:30 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from cat-proof.de (cat.cat-proof.de [213.239.198.176]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8N8TCM054379 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:08:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sc@itst.net) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (p50816B38.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.129.107.56]) by cat-proof.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09CA9340B660 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 00:05:38 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <418FFC7E.1090504@itst.net> Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 00:08:46 +0100 From: Sascha Carlin User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement References: <20041108210226.97935.qmail@web40827.mail.yahoo.com> <1D9627A3-31CA-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <1f2ed5cd041108141341fc1c4f@mail.gmail.com> <5A6FFFB4-31D8-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <5A6FFFB4-31D8-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.86.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 1. put in category somewhat as I proposed it, on the grounds that it's > been specified before and it's fairly clean > 2. don't put in category, on the grounds that it's not been deployed > 3. don't put in category but recommend the use of dc:subject Time and again, the discussion whether or not to put something in Atom core. As web applications evolve over time, so does the usage of meta data. Therefore I am +1 to incorporating a means to categorize items. Slow but steady we should go away from saying/thinking 'hey, this is done in X, so we just use this.' On the long run it will pay back because of consistency and tightness, if this is the correct English term... cu, Sascha From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 18:13:17 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA16121 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:13:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8N6kPe053551; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:06:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8N6kvZ053550; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:06:46 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8N6jCZ053515 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:06:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so197636rns for ; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 15:06:45 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=Sfx2zYkEOVu3plDQDFfDYEqkl0DjuW2OrTbQ1QUMTYem7j8KzKY/h8aIZw2OOi/LGX0FLwCX5l3/qmhKtAxFsz6ZtB4y0nqLOc8NcyNm97WizY2UP3sno1ihuZlCkbyeE9yfC9ttYD55tJj6+xxyBpbYow9vM0GmaFbmT3hywGo= Received: by 10.38.179.47 with SMTP id b47mr719185rnf; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 15:06:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:06:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0411081506517cb756@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 00:06:45 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: mint@franklinmint.fm Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat Cc: Tim Bray , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <418FF307.5020506@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <6451CEF8-31D3-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <418FF307.5020506@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 17:28:23 -0500, Robert Sayre wrote: > > Tim Bray wrote: > > > > See http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat It would be very much in my personal interests to agree with this - writing about this stuff as a fixed target would be great, it wouldn't really matter too much if Atom was less than RSS 2.0 or 1.0. But after the effort that's gone into this project so far I can't help but think it's worth going the last couple of miles. There are 6 Paces currently under discussion, on a couple of these at least consensus is uncertain. There are a further 40 or so more in the queue. There is at least one systematic lack, that of extensibility. Declaring victory now would be a betrayal of the front-line troops, leaving them at the mercy of insurgent bugs... -1 Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 18:30:06 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA18209 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:30:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8NMuxN061685; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:22:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8NMujp061684; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:22:56 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from cat-proof.de (cat.cat-proof.de [213.239.198.176]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8NMti0061675 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:22:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sc@itst.net) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (p50816B38.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.129.107.56]) by cat-proof.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 994C3340B660 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 00:20:04 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <418FFFDF.8050506@itst.net> Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 00:23:11 +0100 From: Sascha Carlin User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom WG Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat References: <20041108224420.32103.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041108224420.32103.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.86.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > So far Atom is a less featureful version of RSS 2.0. As a bystander, throwing in only some words at a time, I have the feeling that many good ideas and features got kicked out because there is no _current_ usage. And that is, as I have already said on the list, no good. See Of course Atom now is more or less stable enough and could replace RSS and its many brothers and sisters. But, as Dare states it, there is no benefit to it. Well, this is more of a political discussion than a technical question, but is is worthwhile to think about it. What do we want to achieve and what do we provide for the future? Yeah, I know, there is the charter answering these questions, but beside the charter there is a emotional side, too, ain't it? I am really sorry my English is not good enough to actually say what I want to say, but that should be at least understandable. cu, Sascha From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 18:36:37 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA19066 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:36:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8NTOhM064555; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:29:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8NTOB7064554; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:29:24 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8NTOYj064496 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:29:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <20041108232920011002qllme>; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 23:29:21 +0000 Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:29:18 -0700 Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <032BDE48-31DE-11D9-B8B8-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, November 8, 2004, at 02:56 PM, Tim Bray wrote: > On Nov 8, 2004, at 12:57 PM, Antone Roundy wrote: >> -1 to any MUSTs for how categories are to be expressed >> ("slash-separated hierarchical"...). >> -0.9 to any SHOULDs on how categories are to be expressed. > > I think the this/that/the-other usage is well-enough established now > to qualify as prior art. Anyhow, if you want to have your own > not-hierarchical categorization scheme, you can, just keep it in your > own namespace. You can even put it inside atom:category. -Tim > How about if @domain is omitted, then categories should be slash-separated...but if @domain is specified, then use that domain's way of indicating categories? From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 18:46:31 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA19693 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:46:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8NYpFj066401; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:34:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8NYpvE066400; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:34:51 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8NYob1066394 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:34:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CRJ2B-0003ti-B6; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 23:34:51 +0000 Message-ID: <4190029C.3050403@franklinmint.fm> Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 18:34:52 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham CC: Tim Bray , Atom WG Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <240C2560-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <4471C014-31D4-11D9-ADD6-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <4471C014-31D4-11D9-ADD6-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > > Introducing new terminology that everyone has to look up elsewhere in > the document should be a last resort. If it's because we're defining > head and entry separately then maybe we should notice they're 90% the > same and do something about it. You could even say that the way to leave comments on an entry would be to include atom:post... Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 18:50:54 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA19941 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:50:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8NgCda069645; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:42:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8NgCfT069644; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:42:12 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.192]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8NgBeV069638 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:42:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so199131rns for ; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 15:42:14 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=W9KoM+ZX/0rGGxdRpB2xeV3IbMiRG7Lv61vyhSUcicvxxpaLrOMd1tjfAqsOVtLJ0d/bCPa4tbnm2i1uzGsJXKA3eLUA4qUmDzWaGOM+DWX3MUcsOxlo4IebBiKjyJA39skzWOjKPYu4cCuX29l+RB1Kdmyr18nDgmv/Ttqm4dA= Received: by 10.38.10.72 with SMTP id 72mr1077909rnj; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 15:42:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:42:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04110815422e285da5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 00:42:14 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement Cc: Dare Obasanjo , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <5A6FFFB4-31D8-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20041108210226.97935.qmail@web40827.mail.yahoo.com> <1D9627A3-31CA-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <1f2ed5cd041108141341fc1c4f@mail.gmail.com> <5A6FFFB4-31D8-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:48:48 -0800, Tim Bray wrote: > My findings: > - more than half have no category information at all > - of those that do, almost all are using dc:subject > - I saw exactly *one* instance of RSS's element, in feeds > produced by Roller Thanks, I was wondering. > So... options are: > > 1. put in category somewhat as I proposed it, on the grounds that it's > been specified before and it's fairly clean > 2. don't put in category, on the grounds that it's not been deployed > 3. don't put in category but recommend the use of dc:subject Of these options I'd lean closest to 1. but advocate a little further exploration of what's needed. I like the idea, and seems a reasonable name. I'd express the requirements as follows : whatever syntax is used it should include at least a URI for the scheme, a place for an identifier of the category within that scheme and a string for a human-readable label. It should be optional. It should be possible to use it at either feed or entry level. As you say, dc:subject is in use (which discounts 2.), but I also think this is something people would use more if it was reasonably well worked-out and standardised. I don't actually think dc:subject as it is currently used is tightly constrained enough for what's needed - it trades broad deployment for precision. Atom's element isn't likely to be used that much outside of Atom. I don't think RSS 2.0's approach is actually far off the mark, it is pretty simple and supplying the URI of the schema in use is a major plus for using alongside other (meta)data systems. But the slash syntax seems an awfully clunky approach in a syntax that has pretty natural support for ordered lists and hierarchies... [someone got shares in MicroParsers Inc..?] Putting the old RDF hat on, I reckon the SKOS work [1] will mean it shouldn't be too difficult to map to other systems/schemes as long as whatever Atom does is reasonably unambiguous. fyi, there's some other plain-XML prior art that is been used pointillistically in syndication at [2] and [3], and I reckon it might be worth seeing if there are any ideas that can be pinched from XTM [4]. Cheers, Danny. [1] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/reports/thes/1.0/guide/ [2] http://matt.blogs.it/specs/ENT/1.0/ [3] http://www.xfml.org/spec/1.0.html [4] http://www.topicmaps.org/xtm/ -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 18:58:11 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA20974 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:58:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8Nq0uQ072816; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:52:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8Nq0Is072815; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:52:00 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8Npwoe072765 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:51:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA8Nj9U5015346; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 23:45:14 GMT In-Reply-To: <6451CEF8-31D3-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> References: <6451CEF8-31D3-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-1--756260270; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <3898491A-31E0-11D9-AF3E-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Cc: Atom WG From: Graham Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 23:45:07 +0000 To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-1--756260270 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You may want to, but you and Sam and Paul have promised too many people that things would be revisited later. I, as you may have noticed, think the spec sucks in many many places, but more than that I was under the impression that there would be time to revisit and reword and rearrange things after the content of the spec has been finalized. Are we not bothering with that? 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Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:58:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8Nr7Rf073313; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:53:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8Nr7kF073312; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:53:07 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8Nr6Kx073306 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:53:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8NrBui012203 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:53:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6V004J8X0MTH@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 16:53:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6V00MNOX0MVE@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 16:53:10 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 15:53:12 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat In-reply-to: <20041108224420.32103.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> To: Dare Obasanjo Cc: Atom WG Message-id: <597730A8-31E1-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20041108224420.32103.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 8, 2004, at 2:44 PM, Dare Obasanjo wrote: > So far Atom is a less featureful version of RSS 2.0. Atom as currently specified has the following advantages over RSS: 1. There's zero ambiguity about single and double escaping, you can use whichever suits your publication process better and not worry about silent data loss. 2. You can include binary chunks right there in-feed, base64 encoded. 3. You get help for aggregate feeds using atom:origin 4. You have a date, atom:updated, with cleanly-specified semantics ("publisher says something changed") that's *guaranteed to be there* per-entry 5. It's in an XML namespace 6. It's got a good accessibility story: you have to have an atom:summary if there's no src= or it's binary. 7. You have clean semantics for linking to the entry this describes or the entry it's talking about. Personally, I think these are highly significant. But even if you disagreed, there are two other reasons why it would be good to get the Atom format spec finished: 1. Atom has an official specification change-controlled by a highly-independent standards org, there is no suspicion that any vendor or individual is pulling the strings. This might not strike you as important, but I assure you that there are lots of people to whom it is. 2. The atom format is one foundation of the Atom publishing protocol, and I guarantee that the world can *really* find a use for the protocol. Also as regards RSS2 and Atom, my take was that the things in RSS2 that aren't in Atom are widely-unimplemented and thus better omitted (that's how we got from SGML to XML). I thought was widely-used, but I was wrong. Is there anything in RSS2 that we don't have but is in wide use? -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 19:06:33 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA21737 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:06:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8NwWIq074602; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:58:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA8NwWUG074601; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:58:32 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.196]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8NwS1S074577 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:58:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so199819rns for ; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 15:58:28 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=TYUMeHMkqsW09wsDglKQ62dEiENnvqHzefsTH4XkuLTTfjcmaWe2Lx9HTbmS0muPYiJCsH0qT1IQ5qWonYFEzOlbrZkpW5z2l58s9s031o2Cb6zhgYNfv3otyALGO3+FbB73P+yPCVamsaBX3x8LISHy1N+f6Ux4/hkZtUKw4hk= Received: by 10.38.10.71 with SMTP id 71mr325240rnj; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 15:58:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:58:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04110815585b921983@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 00:58:28 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #12 Cc: Atom WG , Joe Gregorio , Mark Nottingham , Robert Sayre In-Reply-To: <84DE3206-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <84DE3206-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:07:02 -0800, Tim Bray wrote: > PaceDateModified: No consensus. Close it. No consensus to reject it either. Doesn't that mean it should go back on the revisit list? (In my estimation it only swerved around inclusion because of the chair lying in the road). > PacePersonConstruct: ... I'd be happy to trust Rob and > MNot's editorial judgment to figure out how to work that consensus into > the draft. +1, ditto for the other issues you mentioned. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 19:26:41 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA23028 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:26:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA90IkPI083591; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:18:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA90IkBV083590; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:18:46 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA90IjRB083580 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:18:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:18:51 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 11:18:47 +1100 Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #12 From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd04110815585b921983@mail.gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/11/04 10:58 AM, "Danny Ayers" wrote: >> PaceDateModified: No consensus. Close it. > > No consensus to reject it either. Doesn't that mean it should go back > on the revisit list? +1 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 19:38:47 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA24052 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:38:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA90WORS090019; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:32:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA90WOxU090018; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:32:24 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA90WNfX090011 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:32:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA90WSui003071 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:32:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6V006L0YU4LQ@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 17:32:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6V00MKTYU3V1@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 17:32:27 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 16:32:27 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #12 In-reply-to: <84DE3206-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> To: Atom WG Cc: Joe Gregorio , Mark Nottingham , Robert Sayre Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <84DE3206-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 8, 2004, at 2:07 PM, Tim Bray wrote: > PaceContentOrLink + PaceOptionalAlternateLink: the combo has rough > consensus, accept it. Oops, I had seen PaceContentOrLink as modifying PaceOptionalAlternateLink, but it's been pointed out to me that it replaces it, what I'm really saying is, in effect, accept PaceContentOrLink and close PaceOptionalAlternateLink. Agreed? -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 19:39:29 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA24113 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:39:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA90XMOX090453; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:33:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA90XMNw090452; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:33:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from cat-proof.de (cat.cat-proof.de [213.239.198.176]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA90XLRU090429 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:33:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sc@itst.net) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (p50816B38.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.129.107.56]) by cat-proof.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FB53340B660 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 01:30:31 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <41901063.4020503@itst.net> Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 01:33:39 +0100 From: Sascha Carlin User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #12 References: <84DE3206-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <1f2ed5cd04110815585b921983@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd04110815585b921983@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.86.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Danny Ayers wrote: >PaceDateModified: No consensus. Close it. > > > No consensus to reject it either. Doesn't that mean it should go back > on the revisit list? > (In my estimation it only swerved around inclusion because of the > chair lying in the road). +1 Sascha From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 19:46:56 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA24689 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:46:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA90elxS094040; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:40:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA90elrM094039; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:40:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA90ekQr094033 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:40:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CRK3z-00073U-10; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 00:40:47 +0000 Message-ID: <41901213.8070505@franklinmint.fm> Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 19:40:51 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sascha Carlin CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #12 References: <84DE3206-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <1f2ed5cd04110815585b921983@mail.gmail.com> <41901063.4020503@itst.net> In-Reply-To: <41901063.4020503@itst.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> >> No consensus to reject it either. Doesn't that mean it should go back >> on the revisit list? >> (In my estimation it only swerved around inclusion because of the >> chair lying in the road). I think it's a terrible idea, and entirely useless if optional. There were plenty of technical objections to the Pace. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 20:26:33 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA28093 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:26:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA91F2rs011534; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:15:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA91F2ih011533; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:15:02 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA91F29v011526 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:15:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CRKb8-0000Pj-HI; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 01:15:04 +0000 Message-ID: <41901A1B.2030707@franklinmint.fm> Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 20:15:07 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham CC: Tim Bray , Atom WG Subject: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown (was: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement) References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <240C2560-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <4471C014-31D4-11D9-ADD6-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <4471C014-31D4-11D9-ADD6-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > > Introducing new terminology that everyone has to look up elsewhere in > the document should be a last resort. If it's because we're defining > head and entry separately then maybe we should notice they're 90% the > same and do something about it. Abstract ---------------------------------------- Recast atom:head as an entry. Status ---------------------------------------- Open Author: Robert Sayre Rationale ---------------------------------------- It was productive to spec atom:feeds and atom:entries entirely separately, but now that we've done it, it seems they have a lot in common. Atom Documents ---------------------------------------- Replace: "An Atom Feed Document is a representation of an Atom feed, including metadata about the feed, and some or all of the entries associated with it. Its document element is atom:feed." with "An Atom Feed Document is a representation of an Atom feed, including an entry representing the feed itself, and some or all of the entries it contains. Its document element is atom:feed." 4 The "atom:feed" Element ---------------------------------------- Replace "The 'atom:feed' element is the document (i.e., top-level) element of an Atom Feed Document, acting as a container for metadata and data associated with the feed. Its first element child MUST be atom:head, which MAY be followed zero or more atom:entry child elements." with "The 'atom:feed' element is the document (i.e., top-level) element of an Atom Feed Document, acting as a container for entries associated with the feed. It MUST contain one atom:headentry element, which MAY be followed zero or more atom:entry child elements." 4.2 The "atom:headentry" Element ---------------------------------------- Replace: "The atom:head element acts as a container for metadata about the feed itself." with: "The 'atom:headentry' is an Atom Entry which provides a representation of the feed itself. The only additional restriction placed on atom:entry is that it MUST contain an atom:generator element." ---------------------------------------- Remove: 4.2.11 "atom:info" Element ---------------------------------------- Move: 4.2.3 "atom:introspection" Element to atom:entry ---------------------------------------- Move: 4.2.4 "atom:post" Element to atom:entry "The 'atom:post' element is a Service construct that conveys the URI used to add entries to a feed which will have the parent entry as its headentry. atom:entry elements MUST NOT contain more than one atom:post element." ---------------------------------------- Make atom:tagline a child of atom:feed, which must appear before atom:headentry. ---------------------------------------- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 20:33:17 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA28782 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:33:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA91Lwbf013996; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:21:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA91Lwbt013995; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:21:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA91LvmR013989 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:21:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 99996 invoked by uid 17064); 9 Nov 2004 01:22:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.10.2]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 9 Nov 2004 01:22:03 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: <6451CEF8-31D3-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> References: <6451CEF8-31D3-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 02:21:57 +0100 To: Atom Syntax X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Perhaps what should be done is not so much declare victory on the format, but move everyone to help solve the problems with the atom API that seems currently to be completely at a standstill. There is a mailing list available to discuss that topic at http://www.imc.org/atom-protocol/index.html Let's perhaps slow down the movement on the syntax front and move to completing the API side of things. That way we can use the API to help polish the syntax. Henry Story On 8 Nov 2004, at 23:13, Tim Bray wrote: > > See http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat > > The world can use Atom, sooner rather than later. The > return-on-investment of further WG time invested in polishing > something that's already pretty good is starting to be very > unattractive. Particularly when the Protocol draft seriously needs > work and progress. > > Note that this has not been formally placed at the front of the queue > yet. -Tim > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 20:58:16 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA01598 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:58:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA91j4Z0022795; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:45:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA91j443022794; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:45:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rongo.sixapart.com (dsl081-057-015.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.57.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA91j4if022734 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:45:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ezra@sixapart.com) Received: from [192.168.100.239] (Aphrodite.sm.sixapart.com [192.168.100.239]) by rongo.sixapart.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C14E1480CA for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:41:39 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: <032BDE48-31DE-11D9-B8B8-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> References: <032BDE48-31DE-11D9-B8B8-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <1DF8C33F-31F1-11D9-B4E5-000A95CFF6CC@sixapart.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ezra Cooper Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:46:04 -0800 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I think the this/that/the-other usage is well-enough established now > to qualify as prior art. Anyhow, if you want to have your own > not-hierarchical categorization scheme, you can, just keep it in your > own namespace. You can even put it inside atom:category. -Tim FWIW, the protocol design team came out pretty firmly against the idea of enforcing a hierarchy on categories (categories-as-discoverable-protocol-items, that is). DAGs were thought to be a realistic use-case, and maybe other non-hierarchical structures, too. If a category element is needed in the feed format, let's not impose any relationships between them. What use could it have? If there are existing schemes that are hierarchical, then consumers can make use of that meaning. Imposing semantics on the slash character within the human-readable category name could have problems. Consider my (flat) category scheme for life: Animals Plants Fungi Protozoa/Monera When it comes to single-celled buggers, I'm not very discriminating. Ezra From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 21:20:46 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA03652 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 21:20:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA92BJlZ031443; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:11:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA92BJgn031442; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:11:19 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40806.mail.yahoo.com (web40806.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.78.183]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA92BIV0031415 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:11:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 54219 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Nov 2004 02:11:19 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=qR0E/ZYvJwqhM4k2X6+v6N3NVgRJA5mXk7jztcH4CG+1YWtJI61jwabzAgLdZjev7+ZZwz+sEuEiwrpYG/x5DQixr5XZXAm+/4VKWUQfsBg/+aewxH3T+ro6pSNg0fpsAYYgdwp+8oxpNGo3armGot+JKM93DwjMmm/8tXgiXfY= ; Message-ID: <20041109021119.54217.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [131.107.71.94] by web40806.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 18:11:19 PST Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:11:19 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat To: Tim Bray Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: <597730A8-31E1-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --- Tim Bray wrote: > Atom as currently specified has the following > advantages over RSS: > > 1. There's zero ambiguity about single and double > escaping, you can use > whichever suits your publication process better and > not worry about > silent data loss. Given the recent clarification of the element by Dave Winer the only ambiguity left in RSS is with titles. This isn't to say there are no issues (the MSN Spaces team just hit this problem last week where an escaped title showed up fine in RSS Bandit but looked bad in another aggregator) > 2. You can include binary chunks right there > in-feed, base64 encoded. Who actually wants this feature? People are already complaining about RSS bandwidth costs now let alone when feeds contain binary content that has been bloated to twice or thrice its size by base64 encoding. > 3. You get help for aggregate feeds using > atom:origin Sounds like the element in RSS 2.0 > 4. You have a date, atom:updated, with > cleanly-specified semantics > ("publisher says something changed") that's > *guaranteed to be there* > per-entry This is the first real new capability you've listed so far. > 5. It's in an XML namespace So? > 6. It's got a good accessibility story: you have to > have an > atom:summary if there's no src= or it's binary. You can use in RSS 2.0 and there's no option for having just binary inline content. > 7. You have clean semantics for linking to the entry > this describes or > the entry it's talking about. Really? I thought that wasn't resolved yet. > Personally, I think these are highly significant. > But even if you > disagreed, there are two other reasons why it would > be good to get the > Atom format spec finished: I don't. Two minor features is not cause enough for doubling the amount of widely used XML syndication formats on the Web (Dave Winer's specs + RDF-based specs + Atom 0.3 + Atom 1.0). This is from my perspective as an aggregator author and as someone who works for vendor of a hosted blogging solution (Note: I'm not representing Microsoft on this list). > 1. Atom has an official specification > change-controlled by a > highly-independent standards org, there is no > suspicion that any vendor > or individual is pulling the strings. This might > not strike you as > important, but I assure you that there are lots of > people to whom it > is. Some of us are above personality squabbles when it comes to deploying and implementing technologies. The fact that Dave Winer is responsible for RSS 2.0 and has flamed myself and my employer doesn't change the fact that I and Microsoft have adopted it widely. > 2. The atom format is one foundation of the Atom > publishing protocol, > and I guarantee that the world can *really* find a > use for the > protocol. True. As redundant as the Atom syndication format is, I think there is some value in the Atom API especially with regards to security. Then again, I've toyed with just seeing how hard it would be to get vendors of blog posting tools to just support XML-RPC over HTTPS. > Also as regards RSS2 and Atom, my take was that the > things in RSS2 that > aren't in Atom are widely-unimplemented and thus > better omitted (that's > how we got from SGML to XML). I thought > was widely-used, > but I was wrong. Is there anything in RSS2 that we > don't have but is > in wide use? Your mistake is thinking that stuff in the RSS 2.0 spec is all that RSS is about. ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 21:54:05 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA06399 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 21:54:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA92gHWM043698; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:42:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA92gHXZ043697; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:42:17 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA92gGLL043688 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:42:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Tue, 9 Nov 2004 13:42:23 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 13:42:19 +1100 Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <597730A8-31E1-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/11/04 10:53 AM, "Tim Bray" wrote: > Atom as currently specified has the following advantages over RSS: > > 1. There's zero ambiguity about single and double escaping, you can use > whichever suits your publication process better and not worry about > silent data loss. > 2. You can include binary chunks right there in-feed, base64 encoded. > 3. You get help for aggregate feeds using atom:origin > 4. You have a date, atom:updated, with cleanly-specified semantics > ("publisher says something changed") that's *guaranteed to be there* > per-entry > 5. It's in an XML namespace > 6. It's got a good accessibility story: you have to have an > atom:summary if there's no src= or it's binary. > 7. You have clean semantics for linking to the entry this describes or > the entry it's talking about. 8. multiple children allowed, with attributes to distinguish them from each other. Thus we can have 'via' links, 'about' links, and more (vs the confusion which is vs ) 9. improved granularity by content/@src, reducing bandwidth costs. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 21:58:58 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA06854 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 21:58:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA92lK5M045738; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:47:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA92lKXj045736; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:47:20 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA92lD67045703 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:47:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0ccekcs.cable.mindspring.com ([24.199.81.156] helo=[192.168.1.101]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CRM2P-0005YG-Fd; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 02:47:17 +0000 Message-ID: <41902FB2.9070703@franklinmint.fm> Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 21:47:14 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham CC: Tim Bray , Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <240C2560-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <4471C014-31D4-11D9-ADD6-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <41901A1B.2030707@franklinmint.fm> <5C3000BE-31F9-11D9-BAE2-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <5C3000BE-31F9-11D9-BAE2-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > On 9 Nov 2004, at 1:15 am, Robert Sayre wrote: > >> Abstract >> ---------------------------------------- >> Recast atom:head as an entry. > > > No that sucks. Reformat the spec to combine everything, but keep the > actual syntax exactly the same as it is now. No, Graham, it doesn't suck. It's how every other format with a similar problem deals with it. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 22:01:57 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA07099 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 22:01:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA92sk7m049110; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:54:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA92skoe049109; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:54:46 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA92skdo049103 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:54:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0ccekcs.cable.mindspring.com ([24.199.81.156] helo=[192.168.1.101]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CRM9i-0005vp-4o; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 02:54:50 +0000 Message-ID: <41903177.1060409@franklinmint.fm> Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 21:54:47 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dare Obasanjo CC: Tim Bray , Atom WG Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat References: <20041109021119.54217.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041109021119.54217.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dare Obasanjo wrote: > > Given the recent clarification of the > element by Dave Winer the only ambiguity left in RSS > is with titles. An interesting assertion. Care to comment on the cardinality of RSS2 elements? I seem to recall recent debate on the number of enclosure elements allowed in an entry. > > >>6. It's got a good accessibility story: you have to >>have an >>atom:summary if there's no src= or it's binary. > > > You can use in RSS 2.0 and there's no > option for having just binary inline content. > There's an option for summaries and full content in Atom. Witness content:encoded in RSS1 and the use of atom:content and xhtml:body in RSS2. There's no option for content @src in RSS2, other than using atom:content. > > > Some of us are above personality squabbles when it > comes to deploying and implementing technologies. The > fact that Dave Winer is responsible for RSS 2.0 and > has flamed myself and my employer doesn't change the > fact that I and Microsoft have adopted it widely. > Tim said "suspicion." This doesn't have anything to with Dave (who I just met at Bloggercon and found to be a pretty cool guy). Discomfort with the home of the RSS2 spec is not a personality squabble. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 22:02:22 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA07128 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 22:02:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA92k5aU045227; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:46:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA92k5B3045224; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:46:05 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA92k4pO045182 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:46:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA92j4NH020689; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 02:45:05 GMT In-Reply-To: <41901A1B.2030707@franklinmint.fm> References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <240C2560-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <4471C014-31D4-11D9-ADD6-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <41901A1B.2030707@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-2--745463137; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <5C3000BE-31F9-11D9-BAE2-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Cc: Tim Bray , Atom WG From: Graham Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown (was: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 02:45:04 +0000 To: Robert Sayre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-2--745463137 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9 Nov 2004, at 1:15 am, Robert Sayre wrote: > Abstract > ---------------------------------------- > Recast atom:head as an entry. No that sucks. Reformat the spec to combine everything, but keep the actual syntax exactly the same as it is now. 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Mon, 8 Nov 2004 22:15:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA936JKm053752; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:06:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA936JAD053751; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:06:19 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA936I7n053735 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:06:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0ccekcs.cable.mindspring.com ([24.199.81.156] helo=[192.168.1.101]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CRMKr-0006Sp-SE; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 03:06:22 +0000 Message-ID: <4190342B.70807@franklinmint.fm> Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 22:06:19 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: Graham , Tim Bray , Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <240C2560-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <4471C014-31D4-11D9-ADD6-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <41901A1B.2030707@franklinmint.fm> <5C3000BE-31F9-11D9-BAE2-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <41902FB2.9070703@franklinmint.fm> In-Reply-To: <41902FB2.9070703@franklinmint.fm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Sayre wrote: > > Graham wrote: > >> On 9 Nov 2004, at 1:15 am, Robert Sayre wrote: >> >>> Abstract >>> ---------------------------------------- >>> Recast atom:head as an entry. >> >> >> >> No that sucks. Reformat the spec to combine everything, but keep the >> actual syntax exactly the same as it is now. > > > No, Graham, it doesn't suck. It's how every other format with a similar > problem deals with it. You know, after calmly replying, I still can't believe you would write something like that. What makes you think it's OK to interact like a 14yr old who thinks he knows everything? It's days like this when I wish email programs would hurry up and add support for feeds, allowing the market to consolidate. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 22:19:15 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA17454 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 22:19:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA93CKuq056355; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:12:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA93CKOw056354; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:12:20 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA93CJDa056327 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:12:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id g11so2242rne for ; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 19:12:17 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=haEOXFIlSz7QvtMv137R8wPm//uNGubgWCL2k1H4rBnwrglTY0wEVzgw2gu1Zj3e4o7n2YyV5s2jJ8jKxllkKRDv5/EQmfu4u8SZ8NjI1bBFVXaO1BOBNmrtj4soT0uNkCoaPacIcrzt75JtnFBlv2JA743u3CfEAHALWo24fdM= Received: by 10.38.13.4 with SMTP id 4mr1857570rnm; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 18:10:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.151.28 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:10:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3f1451f504110818104522951b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 21:10:53 -0500 From: Joe Gregorio Reply-To: Joe Gregorio To: Henry Story Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat Cc: Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <6451CEF8-31D3-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 02:21:57 +0100, Henry Story wrote: > > Perhaps what should be done is not so much declare victory on the > format, but move everyone to help solve the problems with the atom API > that seems currently to be completely at a standstill. > > There is a mailing list available to discuss that topic at > http://www.imc.org/atom-protocol/index.html > > Let's perhaps slow down the movement on the syntax front and move to > completing the API side of things. That way we can use the API to help > polish the syntax. +1 to working on the protocol and using it to polish the format. -1 to PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat since we are missing: 1. Any mention of extensibility in the format spec. 2. A feed level 'image' element, ala RSS 2.0 which, "Specifies a GIF, JPEG or PNG image that can be displayed with the channel." -joe -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 22:23:35 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA19479 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 22:23:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA93GoEo058422; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:16:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA93Go4n058421; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:16:50 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA93GnUf058413 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:16:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 91758 invoked by uid 17064); 9 Nov 2004 03:16:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.10.2]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 9 Nov 2004 03:16:55 -0000 In-Reply-To: <41901A1B.2030707@franklinmint.fm> References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <240C2560-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <4471C014-31D4-11D9-ADD6-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <41901A1B.2030707@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Atom WG From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown (was: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 04:16:49 +0100 To: Robert Sayre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +1 On this. I was just working on modeling the latest Atom draft in OWL, and had come to think this would simplify things quite nicely. I had in fact suggested somthing similar in my previous atom-owl model [1]. I will implement your suggestions below in my latest model. They seem good to me. Henry [1] http://bblfish.net/work/atom-owl/2004-08-12/ blogexample.html#entry.2004-08-12-2035.n3 On 9 Nov 2004, at 02:15, Robert Sayre wrote: > > Graham wrote: > >> Introducing new terminology that everyone has to look up elsewhere in >> the document should be a last resort. If it's because we're defining >> head and entry separately then maybe we should notice they're 90% the >> same and do something about it. > > > Abstract > ---------------------------------------- > Recast atom:head as an entry. > > > Status > ---------------------------------------- > Open > > Author: Robert Sayre > > > Rationale > ---------------------------------------- > It was productive to spec atom:feeds and atom:entries entirely > separately, but now that we've done it, it seems they have a lot in > common. > > > > Atom Documents > ---------------------------------------- > Replace: > > "An Atom Feed Document is a representation of an Atom feed, including > metadata about the feed, and some or all of the entries associated > with it. Its document element is atom:feed." > > with > > "An Atom Feed Document is a representation of an Atom feed, including > an entry representing the feed itself, and some or all of the entries > it contains. Its document element is atom:feed." > > > > 4 The "atom:feed" Element > ---------------------------------------- > Replace > > "The 'atom:feed' element is the document (i.e., top-level) element of > an Atom Feed Document, acting as a container for metadata and data > associated with the feed. Its first element child MUST be atom:head, > which MAY be followed zero or more atom:entry child elements." > > with > > "The 'atom:feed' element is the document (i.e., top-level) element of > an Atom Feed Document, acting as a container for entries associated > with the feed. It MUST contain one atom:headentry element, which MAY > be followed zero or more atom:entry child elements." > > > > 4.2 The "atom:headentry" Element > ---------------------------------------- > > Replace: > > "The atom:head element acts as a container for metadata about the > feed itself." > > with: > > "The 'atom:headentry' is an Atom Entry which provides a representation > of the feed itself. The only additional restriction placed on > atom:entry is that it MUST contain an atom:generator element." > > ---------------------------------------- > > Remove: 4.2.11 "atom:info" Element > > > ---------------------------------------- > > Move: 4.2.3 "atom:introspection" Element > to atom:entry > > > ---------------------------------------- > > Move: 4.2.4 "atom:post" Element > to atom:entry > > "The 'atom:post' element is a Service construct that conveys the URI > used to add entries to a feed which will have the parent entry as its > headentry. atom:entry elements MUST NOT contain more than one > atom:post element." > > > ---------------------------------------- > > Make atom:tagline a child of atom:feed, which must appear before > atom:headentry. > > > ---------------------------------------- > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 22:37:04 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA20384 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 22:37:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA93SZPw063109; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:28:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA93SZ6Y063108; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:28:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40826.mail.yahoo.com (web40826.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.92.73]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA93SYmi063065 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:28:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 39994 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Nov 2004 03:28:36 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=YYjGEv1Z/G/FbxOmhF7Zld/b8OLb3piHrrVhr69NP76Wf4m1lAYJ722a9ubsmtua3aiLLVvRjsWC1pd4DC4Hzsg1wM1P4+AtAQVH+pPnF1Ce+jAHajpSWGvc4RiYqdjMUkRDRSljCr74xdiHW3/JMl614UisL5Ayv0C/cr61HqU= ; Message-ID: <20041109032836.39992.qmail@web40826.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [131.107.71.95] by web40826.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 19:28:36 PST Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:28:36 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat To: mint@franklinmint.fm Cc: Tim Bray , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <41903177.1060409@franklinmint.fm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --- Robert Sayre wrote: > > An interesting assertion. Care to comment on the > cardinality of RSS2 > elements? I seem to recall recent debate on the > number of enclosure > elements allowed in an entry. The spec implies that the cardinality is zero or one but I could see how some language lawyer could claim it is ambiguous. What I find funny about people that complain about RSS is that they always use the "asshole argument". If the spec doesn't explicitly disallow something that is implied to be disallowed then they make a hue and cry about how it is broken. As someone who's actually worked with a number of W3C specs that contain stuff that is just plain broken I find the so-called issues people have with RSS to extremely minor nitpicks. > There's an option for summaries and full content in > Atom. Witness > content:encoded in RSS1 and the use of atom:content > and xhtml:body in > RSS2. There's no option for content @src in RSS2, > other than using > atom:content. RSS 2.0 has enclosures which make a lot more sense than in syndication scenarios. Also I've seen RSS 2.0 feeds that use content:encoded so I'm not sure where you get the idea that its usage is restricted to RSS 1.0 > > Tim said "suspicion." This doesn't have anything to > with Dave (who I > just met at Bloggercon and found to be a pretty cool > guy). Discomfort > with the home of the RSS2 spec is not a personality > squabble. Really, who are the people that have this discomfort who aren't people who've had personality conflicts with Dave Winer? The major folks I've seen making a hue and cry about this are the Blogger and Six Apart folks who've beefed with Dave Winer. PS: Quite frankly I'm not even sure why I'm opposing this Pace. It would be amusing to watch if after all the hubbub about Atom all it ended up being was a less featureful but more complex clone of RSS. ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 22:44:26 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA21116 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 22:44:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA93Zm7R065114; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:35:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA93ZmRr065112; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:35:48 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40822.mail.yahoo.com (web40822.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.92.69]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA93ZmCO065052 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:35:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 46722 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Nov 2004 03:35:49 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=SosVX2sdNYBYtV346F99MwmuiS57gUh8WX12X6HXzh+7D5Q8UpmcLh47SmK0tkyLSYlKFg2lb0oRk7Y2ozsPzVz+T1UB5dvB5kIdRt3Jb1UnbQGRvDdK86J8x7QJLwQ9b4xW7fak56HHGhTMUXS1X1TUO5TC0ZG2Rj2QAlsAQjU= ; Message-ID: <20041109033549.46720.qmail@web40822.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [131.107.71.228] by web40822.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 19:35:49 PST Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:35:49 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown To: mint@franklinmint.fm, Graham Cc: Tim Bray , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <41902FB2.9070703@franklinmint.fm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --- Robert Sayre wrote: > >> Abstract > >> ---------------------------------------- > >> Recast atom:head as an entry. > > No, Graham, it doesn't suck. It's how every other > format with a similar > problem deals with it. Anyone can pull generalizations out of thin air. Can you back up this claim with examples of XML formats that do this? It seems pretty kludgy to me but its not like I care much what elements are called anyway, I'll write that code once and never think about it again. ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 22:50:29 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA21461 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 22:50:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA93bben065939; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:37:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA93bbpT065938; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:37:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA93bWPg065903 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:37:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0ccekcs.cable.mindspring.com ([24.199.81.156] helo=[192.168.1.101]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CRMp6-0007kO-6d; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 03:37:36 +0000 Message-ID: <41903B7D.6080907@franklinmint.fm> Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 22:37:33 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dare Obasanjo CC: Tim Bray , Atom WG Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat References: <20041109032836.39992.qmail@web40826.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041109032836.39992.qmail@web40826.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dare Obasanjo wrote: > What I find funny about people that complain about RSS > is that they always use the "asshole argument". If the > spec doesn't explicitly disallow something that is > implied to be disallowed then they make a hue and cry > about how it is broken. That's fine. It is often good practice to leave aspects of a spec undefined. What's not OK is to "clarify" them without revving the spec. > > RSS 2.0 has enclosures which make a lot more sense > than in syndication scenarios. Just why is that? I see a use for enclosures, and > Also > I've seen RSS 2.0 feeds that use content:encoded so > I'm not sure where you get the idea that its usage is > restricted to RSS 1.0 It's defined as an RSS1 module (which includes indirection, BTW). You can validly put it in RSS2, but its meaning would be undefined there. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 23:01:56 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA22229 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 23:01:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA93mA9T070870; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:48:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA93mAPc070869; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:48:10 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40828.mail.yahoo.com (web40828.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.92.75]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA93mAnj070804 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:48:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 36738 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Nov 2004 03:48:12 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=x2f1O8RRhjwppMP+02Epo1oo0/GLyt6++Vu5zRds6l22xnHygAhhQOpgQyS8u6MHqc3oFozmat2ha+Lj9fesI+k0CyzpADz8m9Hfll5Rmw9AyvbnTRVadHAhpIig5bVfw5GUfD8kYmWA1RR4Vl4R230mGPdO0ccJx/TgREqkzl0= ; Message-ID: <20041109034811.36736.qmail@web40828.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [131.107.71.227] by web40828.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 19:48:11 PST Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:48:11 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat To: mint@franklinmint.fm Cc: Tim Bray , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <41903B7D.6080907@franklinmint.fm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --- Robert Sayre wrote: > > That's fine. It is often good practice to leave > aspects of a spec > undefined. What's not OK is to "clarify" them > without revving the spec. Someone should explain that to the W3C then since that is standard practice there. Of course, this is a lot better than the IETF which just abandons specs once they throw them out there. Trying to figure out how to implement NNTP support from the relevant IETF specs was a joke given how far practice had outpaced the much outdated RFCs. Like I said, as someone who's spent the past few years working with specs produced by standards bodies I find the complaints about RSS 2.0, etc to consist mainly of nitpicking. ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 23:16:13 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA23612 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 23:16:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA94AAhm081131; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:10:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA94AA85081130; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:10:10 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA94A8EZ081090 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:10:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0ccekcs.cable.mindspring.com ([24.199.81.156] helo=[192.168.1.101]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CRNKc-0000nZ-TR; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 04:10:11 +0000 Message-ID: <41904320.30700@franklinmint.fm> Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 23:10:08 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dare Obasanjo CC: Graham , Tim Bray , Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown References: <20041109033549.46720.qmail@web40822.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041109033549.46720.qmail@web40822.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dare Obasanjo wrote: > --- Robert Sayre wrote: > > >>>>Abstract >>>>---------------------------------------- >>>>Recast atom:head as an entry. >> >>No, Graham, it doesn't suck. It's how every other >>format with a similar >>problem deals with it. > > > Anyone can pull generalizations out of thin air. Can > you back up this claim with examples of XML formats > that do this? I don't really care to limit the argument to XML formats... I see that as orthogonal. WebDAV Web Collections JSR 170 HTML Tables (th and td are cells) that's off the top of my head. I'm sure I could think of more. It's not like it's a super weird solution, and it allows a convenient way to do comments and other hierarchies (#1 request that's not on the Pace list). Maybe one of you should write something if you're so unhappy. This is what people who care about an issue do. If you don't care, please don't waste everyone's time. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 23:16:34 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA23635 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 23:16:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA949lw3080908; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:09:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA949l04080907; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:09:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA949kIG080892 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:09:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0ccekcs.cable.mindspring.com ([24.199.81.156] helo=[192.168.1.101]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CRNKI-0000mN-S4; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 04:09:51 +0000 Message-ID: <4190430C.3060901@franklinmint.fm> Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 23:09:48 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dare Obasanjo CC: Tim Bray , Atom WG Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat References: <20041109034811.36736.qmail@web40828.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041109034811.36736.qmail@web40828.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dare Obasanjo wrote: > > --- Robert Sayre wrote: > > >>That's fine. It is often good practice to leave >>aspects of a spec >>undefined. What's not OK is to "clarify" them >>without revving the spec. I'm going to assume you agree with me. I guess? Unrelated: > Someone should explain that to the W3C then since that > is standard practice there. Unrelated: > Of course, this is a lot > better than the IETF which just abandons specs once > they throw them out there. Trying to figure out how to > implement NNTP support from the relevant IETF specs > was a joke given how far practice had outpaced the > much outdated RFCs. > > Like I said, as someone who's spent the past few years > working with specs produced by standards bodies I find > the complaints about RSS 2.0, etc to consist mainly of > nitpicking. That's a nice opinion. Of course, you've already stated as much, so I'm not sure why you're repeating yourself. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 23:16:47 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA23655 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 23:16:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA946Fvl079502; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:06:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA946FNd079499; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:06:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA946D89079228 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:06:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:05:51 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 15:05:47 +1100 Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20041109021119.54217.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/11/04 1:11 PM, "Dare Obasanjo" wrote: >> 5. It's in an XML namespace > > So? So you can use Atom elements in other formats if you want to. Just as it's possible to use dc:subject and content:encoded in lots of different places. Without a namespace this isn't so easy. If I wanted to use RSS 2.0 enclosures in an atom feed, how would I write it? e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 23:29:08 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA24407 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 23:29:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA94MOdA087157; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:22:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA94MONh087156; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:22:24 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA94MOZV087149 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:22:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from duerst@w3.org) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFEF14EFA5; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 23:22:27 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20041109131828.088efa30@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 13:19:44 +0900 To: Dare Obasanjo , Tim Bray From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: <20041109021119.54217.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> References: <597730A8-31E1-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <20041109021119.54217.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 11:11 04/11/09, Dare Obasanjo wrote: >--- Tim Bray wrote: >> 2. You can include binary chunks right there >> in-feed, base64 encoded. > >Who actually wants this feature? People are already >complaining about RSS bandwidth costs now let alone >when feeds contain binary content that has been >bloated to twice or thrice its size by base64 >encoding. Bloated by a factor 1.33333... to be exact. It may still be bad, but there is no reason to exagerate it. Regards, Martin. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 23:36:08 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA24978 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 23:36:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA94Ubsw090861; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:30:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA94UbC1090860; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:30:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA94UaTF090818 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:30:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA94MWCB005440; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 04:22:33 GMT In-Reply-To: <4190342B.70807@franklinmint.fm> References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <240C2560-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <4471C014-31D4-11D9-ADD6-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <41901A1B.2030707@franklinmint.fm> <5C3000BE-31F9-11D9-BAE2-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <41902FB2.9070703@franklinmint.fm> <4190342B.70807@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-3--739616555; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: Cc: Tim Bray , Atom WG From: Graham Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 04:22:30 +0000 To: mint@franklinmint.fm X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-3--739616555 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9 Nov 2004, at 3:06 am, Robert Sayre wrote: > You know, after calmly replying, I still can't believe you would write > something like that. What makes you think it's OK to interact like a > 14yr old who thinks he knows everything? It's days like this when I > wish email programs would hurry up and add support for feeds, allowing > the market to consolidate. Reading it again, the tone of my reply doesn't really match what I meant. Try: No that [doesn't make much sense to me]. [What we should do is] Reformat the spec to combine everything, but keep the actual syntax exactly the same as it is now. I like to leave some things implied, but that often work in email with strangers. Sorry if I offended you. 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Mon, 8 Nov 2004 23:45:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA94dRdF095047; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:39:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA94dR44095046; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:39:27 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA94dQ7b095039 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:39:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id b11so10758rne for ; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 20:39:33 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=czwIPSZHt11KNzDBJkzV6SxhF05YidHDAI1SPqqpSrEav4yIdtN3OfQs130ROhKSQQwWo/Yl2upjzgqq1X255dRX/f/RWW6tNWRxGvBF6S2wrPTHsyz7LAcmmGZ8IMbcPTLOTZze+xWbc58KkuGtH8aHVb3n7Fg4Vlr4JPr643k= Received: by 10.38.125.7 with SMTP id x7mr76987rnc; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 20:39:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.151.28 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:39:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3f1451f5041108203978605fcc@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 23:39:32 -0500 From: Joe Gregorio Reply-To: Joe Gregorio To: Robert Sayre Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown (was: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement) Cc: Graham , Tim Bray , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <41901A1B.2030707@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <240C2560-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <4471C014-31D4-11D9-ADD6-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <41901A1B.2030707@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 20:15:07 -0500, Robert Sayre wrote: > > Make atom:tagline a child of atom:feed, which must appear before > atom:headentry. This is the only part I don't understand. You made atom:generator a mandatory part of atom:headentry, why not atom:tagline? -joe -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 8 23:49:40 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA26617 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 23:49:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA94epXb095800; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:40:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA94epnE095799; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:40:51 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40823.mail.yahoo.com (web40823.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.92.70]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA94eoPd095734 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:40:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 59167 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Nov 2004 04:40:52 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=6V4cjlDaMNYwht+sCKSFnIUyfbJtRuR5XY/Ylv58GbXwT5HF91vWY5b3HD57Vj6+WuTdQI5T9C58IcmpNTtbDEp9mSQXizyJRLOW3n5SYMTo6QWmM6G6moBNdEqA2+arGbSf7s/ee/GbT/KvKZqQQfRSXeOaxB+UnOt6LqHKBTU= ; Message-ID: <20041109044052.59165.qmail@web40823.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.18.132.123] by web40823.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 20:40:52 PST Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:40:52 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat To: mint@franklinmint.fm Cc: Tim Bray , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <4190430C.3060901@franklinmint.fm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --- Robert Sayre wrote: > > >>That's fine. It is often good practice to leave > >>aspects of a spec > >>undefined. What's not OK is to "clarify" them > >>without revving the spec. > > I'm going to assume you agree with me. I guess? I wonder where you got that idea? No public standards body I am aware of isn't guilty of this today. The IETF (which Atom will be published under) has a particularly nasty habit of not even bothering to update specs at all which is a LOT WORSE than updating them without revving the spec. How to deal with errata to specs is a problem that no one has really figured out how to solve yet. Remove the log from your own eye and all that... ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 00:02:34 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA28033 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 00:02:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA94s3oh001912; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:54:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA94s31k001911; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:54:03 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA94s2sJ001904 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:54:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA94s9NH015152 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 21:54:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6W006J8AY8CP@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 21:54:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6W004I2AY7SO@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 21:54:08 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 20:54:10 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat In-reply-to: <20041109021119.54217.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> To: Dare Obasanjo Cc: Atom WG Message-id: <6527DED4-320B-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20041109021119.54217.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 8, 2004, at 6:11 PM, Dare Obasanjo wrote: > I don't. Two minor features is not cause enough for > doubling the amount of widely used XML syndication > formats on the Web ... > As redundant as the Atom syndication format is, > I think there is some value in the Atom API Dare, you may regard this effort as redundant, but I see it as my role to help ensure that this WG ships something that is acceptably feature-ful in an acceptable time-frame. Obviously there are trade-offs. You are explicitly saying that you don't think the Atom format is ready. Please outline for us which set of features you would consider it necessary that Atom have to be worth doing. Are they represented by existing Paces? If not, do you plan to create some covering the missing pieces? -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 00:36:11 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA00608 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 00:36:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA95Rv9E015931; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 21:27:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA95RvRw015930; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 21:27:57 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA95RvAE015891 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 21:27:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004110905275801300qvrpae>; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 05:27:59 +0000 Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 22:27:57 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1D071E70-3210-11D9-B8B8-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Questions and comments: 1) Why does atom:tagline go outside of atom:headentry? Why does atom:generator go inside atom:headentry? 2) Does atom:entry get an atom:version? how does it make sense to put atom:introspection into atom:entry vs. atom:headentry? same question for atom:post? does atom:headentry get an atom:edit? if so, can it be used to edit the atom:tagline, even though that's not in atom:headentry? if not, how is atom:tagline going to be edited? ...and so on. There seem to be lots of differences between the contents of atom:head (or atom:headentry) and atom:entry. With only section 4.2.11 being removed, how does this substantially shorten the spec? 3) Could you elaborate on "Allows a straightforward way to implement hierarchy". I think I sort of get it, but this feels like a much bigger shift than the sparse language of the Pace would imply. 4) atom:headentry? he a dentry? what does this have to do with teeth? ;-) Seriously though, why not stick with the name atom:head, even if it is to be some sort of Entry Construct? From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 01:50:00 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA05350 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 01:49:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA96eE4x061580; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 22:40:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA96eEZk061578; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 22:40:14 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA96eCmp061439 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 22:40:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from randymorin@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id f1so30100rne for ; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 22:40:15 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=dFnoT4DRbWo0yiBXF7C/BiXKhvSl4I2VzP6RkjbVCaaEZFXDZ0lfl9ze1nLXn76rqfgupkmzQhwLikelP25UVI4O6tcT9njYaXF4TioTBPDfBzccFzZFUxG8gxRpl1gufR8UoUiVDDVrFGiD5eoth0LxU3ZxoDbWGsuk4+dEaPk= Received: by 10.38.165.3 with SMTP id n3mr132852rne; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 22:40:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.81.64 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 22:40:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 01:40:15 -0500 From: Randy Charles Morin Reply-To: randy@kbcafe.com To: Atomlist Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray said: >You are explicitly saying that you don't think the Atom format is ready. Please >outline for us which set of features you would consider it necessary that Atom >have to be worth doing. Can I answer this? Atom is nothing w/out the protocol spec. In my opinion, RSS 2.0 is fine. RSS 1.0 is fine too! But BloggerAPI and MetaWeblogAPI really suck. MHO. Dave, if you read this, I'm sorry! Anybody take a look at LiveJournal's API? I'm going to agree w/ both Tim and Dare, if that is possible. Dare is right, in that there is no value in releasing just the Atom format, because it adds nothing new to the mix. But on the other hand, I don't think (as my fellow CDNian thinks) the Atom format is going to get much better, if at all, so releasing now has the advantage of time (not wasted). Last, I would really like the XSD, Schematron and Relax NG included. I'm a programmer that relies on this type of stuffing. Give me a wink and a pointer to the latest draft w/ mods and I can get those done in a day or two. Thanks, Randy 'Clueless' Morin http://www.kbcafe.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 04:36:32 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA05229 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 04:36:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA99NRrw075102; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 01:23:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA99NRlp075101; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 01:23:27 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA99NQjC074737 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 01:23:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:22:56 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 20:22:52 +1100 Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1D071E70-3210-11D9-B8B8-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/11/04 4:27 PM, "Antone Roundy" wrote: > 2) Does atom:entry get an atom:version? how does it make sense to put > atom:introspection into atom:entry vs. atom:headentry? same question > for atom:post? does atom:headentry get an atom:edit? if so, can it be > used to edit the atom:tagline, even though that's not in > atom:headentry? if not, how is atom:tagline going to be edited? ...and > so on. > are the atom:introspections in each of the atom:entry meant to have the same value? what does it mean if the third entry has a different value from the second entry? repeat for each of the atom:head children being moved into atom:entry. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 04:48:49 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA06268 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 04:48:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA99fG2P086789; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 01:41:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA99fFEN086788; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 01:41:16 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail02.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail02.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.18]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA99fFYs086709 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 01:41:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 88834 messnum 1887279 invoked from network[62.77.172.85/62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net]); 9 Nov 2004 09:41:08 -0000 Received: from 62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net (HELO ?200.200.200.35?) (62.77.172.85) by mail02.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 88834) with SMTP; 9 Nov 2004 09:41:08 -0000 Message-ID: <419090AA.7010106@dehora.net> Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 09:40:58 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8a1) Gecko/20040520 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #12 References: <84DE3206-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <84DE3206-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > PaceDateModified: No consensus. Close it. No consensus either way, but I'd strongly urge the group to close it. [I've seen no compelling case made that we have any business specifying user behaviour in this fashion.] > PaceErrVerb + PaceServiceErr: No consensus, but not decisively > rejected. Put them on the revisit list and recommend that those in > favor rework a bit based on the discussion. +1 > PacePersonConstruct: I think (but feel free to shout me down) that we > have rough consensus that this is a good idea, that its name could be > improved, and that it belongs in atom:entry, not "Person Constructs". > If people feel that's roughly right, I'd be happy to trust Rob and > MNot's editorial judgment to figure out how to work that consensus into > the draft. +1 cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 05:14:51 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA07845 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 05:14:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9A79Vo004362; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 02:07:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9A79VS004361; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 02:07:09 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.196]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9A78m2004283 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 02:07:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 1so242166rny for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 02:07:02 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Cb/1Win1AmTWK0354yeYp9Fv4dGAKOc9/RarLlPAc8208D/0OjjObnHphTEziUuX4HsVM8+QiZz7UIu+G1XdECM9e2rzcjIpNoh5NEgjk1NDUGi3U9AFf2Mt+RB2GR5PiwPvhOJJM62ifEmEdwcd7nHn6+9Gjh69ON1aByf4SWU= Received: by 10.38.10.71 with SMTP id 71mr150351rnj; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 02:07:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 02:07:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd041109020748cca598@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:07:01 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: RSS 1.0 Enclosures Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I notice the matter of enclosures has cropped up a few times in the middle of other threads, so in case you haven't encountered it, fyi there's an RDF schema (RSS 1.0 module) for doing enclosures at: http://purl.oclc.org/net/rss_2.0/enc# Here's Suzan Foster, the author's announcement: http://lists.usefulinc.com/pipermail/redland-dev/2004-November/000684.html A blog post from me suggesting why I think this is an improvement over RSS 2.0's approach: http://dannyayers.com/archives/2004/11/01/rss-10-enclosures/ (includes kitten photos) Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 05:18:05 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA08141 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 05:18:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9ABxv7007227; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 02:11:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9ABxSr007226; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 02:11:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.203]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9ABwhw007167 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 02:11:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 1so242264rny for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 02:11:54 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=NCVsnauPVVZ18HgqLaNvMjPj1ts+rtVCKkRdMNu0C4PiNk7Pf+FChFcO5qabdQEUpc807uVeZwf6I4eN6BlTCp6SHTUdclYmYQg86EnXuGhJNrwkG5gEVTRfudfPSXgX9y3qycJe0cFZGxg1U7p7aqnlBDUfzw0CRXpT1iVhVvo= Received: by 10.38.10.71 with SMTP id 71mr151893rnj; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 02:11:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 02:11:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04110902114f9317a9@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:11:54 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Robert Sayre Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #12 Cc: Sascha Carlin , atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <41901213.8070505@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <84DE3206-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <1f2ed5cd04110815585b921983@mail.gmail.com> <41901063.4020503@itst.net> <41901213.8070505@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 19:40:51 -0500, Robert Sayre wrote: > > >> > >> No consensus to reject it either. Doesn't that mean it should go back > >> on the revisit list? > >> (In my estimation it only swerved around inclusion because of the > >> chair lying in the road). > > I think it's a terrible idea, and entirely useless if optional. There > were plenty of technical objections to the Pace. I think it's a brilliant idea and think Atom will be hobbled without it. There was support from quite a few people (around 50%?). No-one explained how the straightforward use cases I provided could be dealt with using atom:updated alone. Like I said, no consensus. I don't think that means it should be rejected. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 05:26:00 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA08614 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 05:26:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9ALGYg014094; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 02:21:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9ALGlj014093; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 02:21:16 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail10.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail10.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.26]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA9ALFUb013997 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 02:21:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 87171 messnum 1950270 invoked from network[62.77.172.85/62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net]); 9 Nov 2004 10:21:10 -0000 Received: from 62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net (HELO ?200.200.200.35?) (62.77.172.85) by mail10.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 87171) with SMTP; 9 Nov 2004 10:21:10 -0000 Message-ID: <41909A0C.3020908@dehora.net> Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 10:21:00 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8a1) Gecko/20040520 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #12 References: <84DE3206-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <1f2ed5cd04110815585b921983@mail.gmail.com> <41901063.4020503@itst.net> <41901213.8070505@franklinmint.fm> <1f2ed5cd04110902114f9317a9@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd04110902114f9317a9@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Danny Ayers wrote: > I think it's a brilliant idea and think Atom will be hobbled without > it. There was support from quite a few people (around 50%?). No-one > explained how the straightforward use cases I provided could be dealt > with using atom:updated alone. Send a link. I'll explain it. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 05:50:11 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA11102 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 05:50:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9AgR22029259; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 02:42:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9AgReG029258; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 02:42:27 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.201]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9AgRCi029215 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 02:42:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so221655rns for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 02:42:24 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=G6oIjVlBDol1k2WYrEjmcagdnNvyv+alUuj71vGymkJGe3IhmJMzJhtrrT8Dduvcd0Jyqn9MhaWlojuWwmnUmO09/SVxJU/FrqJylTCJjImDhGRt9MN1JAcCM5oJfZR9u93Y1ilCdrJWPZwn0V1ja1lZXTpqOVEIxJGcTzdckw0= Received: by 10.38.8.19 with SMTP id 19mr153572rnh; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 02:42:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 02:42:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04110902422c1e87d0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:42:24 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Ezra Cooper Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <1DF8C33F-31F1-11D9-B4E5-000A95CFF6CC@sixapart.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <032BDE48-31DE-11D9-B8B8-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <1DF8C33F-31F1-11D9-B4E5-000A95CFF6CC@sixapart.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:46:04 -0800, Ezra Cooper wrote: > If a category element is needed in the feed format, let's not impose > any relationships between them. +1. > Animals > Plants > Fungi > Protozoa/Monera > > When it comes to single-celled buggers, I'm not very discriminating. That's a little harsh, just 'cause they can't fight back! Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 05:55:45 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA11516 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 05:55:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9AnDNU033615; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 02:49:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9AnDJc033614; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 02:49:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.197]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9AnB7Q033589 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 02:49:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so221814rns for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 02:49:12 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=rdFQ6yIFwr5/QHhuAr+6RfJ8NUxXpizcbw/P9f5TDHhMZ1a/UlE4KJGP18XrVEmRM48Oqh0/NKi5KKaaDl3SFGXeuAQ9g8CN7A6MBzK8roNPRYVi76NgcNJoSIAcJcxgrcydq+AXbsw5+VmQlIr1JvtBHz5M90QcHqBRqkAOOLw= Received: by 10.38.179.47 with SMTP id b47mr148539rnf; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 02:49:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 02:49:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd041109024965095473@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:49:12 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Robert Sayre Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown (was: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement) Cc: Graham , Tim Bray , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <41901A1B.2030707@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <240C2560-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <4471C014-31D4-11D9-ADD6-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <41901A1B.2030707@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +1 My first impressions are positive, this looks pretty elegant, though of course that's no reliable measure. But I know how much time Henry's been spending on the OWL-based modelling (in a UMLish style), and if he reckons it works there then I'd suggest that's pretty strong validation. 10/10 for the Pace title. Cheers, Danny. On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 20:15:07 -0500, Robert Sayre wrote: > > Graham wrote: > > > > > Introducing new terminology that everyone has to look up elsewhere in > > the document should be a last resort. If it's because we're defining > > head and entry separately then maybe we should notice they're 90% the > > same and do something about it. > > Abstract > ---------------------------------------- > Recast atom:head as an entry. > > Status > ---------------------------------------- > Open > > Author: Robert Sayre > > Rationale > ---------------------------------------- > It was productive to spec atom:feeds and atom:entries entirely > separately, but now that we've done it, it seems they have a lot in common. > > Atom Documents > ---------------------------------------- > Replace: > > "An Atom Feed Document is a representation of an Atom feed, including > metadata about the feed, and some or all of the entries associated with > it. Its document element is atom:feed." > > with > > "An Atom Feed Document is a representation of an Atom feed, including an > entry representing the feed itself, and some or all of the entries it > contains. Its document element is atom:feed." > > 4 The "atom:feed" Element > ---------------------------------------- > Replace > > "The 'atom:feed' element is the document (i.e., top-level) element of > an Atom Feed Document, acting as a container for metadata and data > associated with the feed. Its first element child MUST be atom:head, > which MAY be followed zero or more atom:entry child elements." > > with > > "The 'atom:feed' element is the document (i.e., top-level) element of an > Atom Feed Document, acting as a container for entries associated with > the feed. It MUST contain one atom:headentry element, which MAY be > followed zero or more atom:entry child elements." > > 4.2 The "atom:headentry" Element > ---------------------------------------- > > Replace: > > "The atom:head element acts as a container for metadata about the feed > itself." > > with: > > "The 'atom:headentry' is an Atom Entry which provides a representation > of the feed itself. The only additional restriction placed on atom:entry > is that it MUST contain an atom:generator element." > > ---------------------------------------- > > Remove: 4.2.11 "atom:info" Element > > ---------------------------------------- > > Move: 4.2.3 "atom:introspection" Element > to atom:entry > > ---------------------------------------- > > Move: 4.2.4 "atom:post" Element > to atom:entry > > "The 'atom:post' element is a Service construct that conveys the URI > used to add entries to a feed which will have the parent entry as its > headentry. atom:entry elements MUST NOT contain more than one atom:post > element." > > ---------------------------------------- > > Make atom:tagline a child of atom:feed, which must appear before > atom:headentry. > > ---------------------------------------- > > -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 06:00:03 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA11825 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 06:00:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9AsSMU037606; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 02:54:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9AsSXr037605; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 02:54:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9AsReU037569 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 02:54:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so221955rns for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 02:54:28 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=NTWmnZu5ibl6nBWiETFua5eeKMGBwsqBewG0EjryvGEuhhKpXd04tGaK33LKckehSFwNulNN6yeLPIzulaTnEUyUdiXXonHi0r13ttQda33/y6LluSAn3CTL6/eKftgnwDZz4EbaQzD4qKzHJsrLnZk4RKCt5LOyie0BjHfGbo0= Received: by 10.38.8.19 with SMTP id 19mr156862rnh; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 02:54:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 02:54:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04110902541b54139b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:54:28 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #12 Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <41909A0C.3020908@dehora.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <84DE3206-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <1f2ed5cd04110815585b921983@mail.gmail.com> <41901063.4020503@itst.net> <41901213.8070505@franklinmint.fm> <1f2ed5cd04110902114f9317a9@mail.gmail.com> <41909A0C.3020908@dehora.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iA9AsSeU037598 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 10:21:00 +0000, Bill de hÓra wrote: > Send a link. I'll explain it. Choosing latest entry from multiple feeds: http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg10894.html Single feed for project documentation: http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg10931.html I've also not seen any considered response to Bob's point, that at entries published after a particular atom:updated would implicitly be treated as equivalent. [[ This implies that if I find multiple versions of an entry, I should ignore all but the *first* instance of an entry found with any particular atom:updated value. I should not be concerned with identifying the "latest" version since any version that shares the same atom:updated value is equivalent in the opinion of the publisher. The opinion of the publisher is paramount in these issues. ]] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg10930.html Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 06:05:40 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA12038 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 06:05:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9B02Jv041645; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 03:00:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9B0282041642; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 03:00:02 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9B021A041629 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 03:00:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 19491 invoked by uid 17064); 9 Nov 2004 11:00:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.20]) ([83.112.10.2]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 9 Nov 2004 11:00:01 -0000 In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=Apple-Mail-9--715771873 Message-Id: <7D8F39B5-323E-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Cc: Eric Scheid From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:59:55 +0100 To: Atom WG , atom-protocol@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-9--715771873 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wonder if it would help with some of these questions to think of a Feed as an Entry. This is something I had explored a while ago, but then given up on to come to a model like the one just presented by Robert Sayre. The model Robert has is to have an Feed simply be a list of Entries, with one head Entry given a special position, and a special meaning Henry Story ... ... ... ... As a class diagram one could present this like this --Apple-Mail-9--715771873 Content-Type: image/jpeg; x-mac-hide-extension=yes; x-unix-mode=0644; name="Atom-Nov-9-UML-FeedPointsToEntry.jpg" Content-Disposition: inline; filename=Atom-Nov-9-UML-FeedPointsToEntry.jpg Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wBDABEMDQ8NCxEPDg8TEhEVGiscGhgYGjUmKB8rPzdCQT43 PDtFTmNURUleSzs8VnZXXmdqb3BvQ1N6g3lsgmNtb2v/2wBDARITExoXGjMcHDNrRzxHa2tra2tr a2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2v/wAARCAClAZsDASIA AhEBAxEB/8QAHwAAAQUBAQEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtRAAAgEDAwIEAwUFBAQA AAF9AQIDAAQRBRIhMUEGE1FhByJxFDKBkaEII0KxwRVS0fAkM2JyggkKFhcYGRolJicoKSo0NTY3 ODk6Q0RFRkdISUpTVFVWV1hZWmNkZWZnaGlqc3R1dnd4eXqDhIWGh4iJipKTlJWWl5iZmqKjpKWm p6ipqrKztLW2t7i5usLDxMXGx8jJytLT1NXW19jZ2uHi4+Tl5ufo6erx8vP09fb3+Pn6/8QAHwEA AwEBAQEBAQEBAQAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtREAAgECBAQDBAcFBAQAAQJ3AAECAxEEBSEx BhJBUQdhcRMiMoEIFEKRobHBCSMzUvAVYnLRChYkNOEl8RcYGRomJygpKjU2Nzg5OkNERUZHSElK 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The feed has a head Entry and a number of pointers to the Entry constructs. Here the Feed is a very small construct. Notice that there is something a little odd in this model, which is that the origin property points to an Entry, and not to the Feed, as I think some people had intended it to. But this may not be a very big problem either. Another way of modeling this is the to think of a Feed as being a subclass of an Entry, thereby inheriting all its properties, but with a few extra properties perhaps, such as a tagline. In xml this would be written more like this perhaps: Henry Story ... ... ... ... ie we loose the or tags completely, and are back to the older syntax. 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Notice that the Feed is an Entry, so it is also really pointing to an Entry. To be able to choose between these two models it may again be useful to move on to the Atom API. It might for example be very advantageous to think of a Feed as an Entry, that can be edited just like another Entry. Publishing an Entry may just be to add the Entry to a well known and accessible Feed. This is one way how I see the Atom API being helping us clean up some final syntax decisions. Henry Story http://bblfish.net/blog/ On 9 Nov 2004, at 10:22, Eric Scheid wrote: > > On 9/11/04 4:27 PM, "Antone Roundy" wrote: > >> 2) Does atom:entry get an atom:version? how does it make sense to put >> atom:introspection into atom:entry vs. atom:headentry? same question >> for atom:post? does atom:headentry get an atom:edit? if so, can it be >> used to edit the atom:tagline, even though that's not in >> atom:headentry? if not, how is atom:tagline going to be edited? ...and >> so on. >> > > are the atom:introspections in each of the atom:entry meant to have > the same > value? what does it mean if the third entry has a different value from > the > second entry? repeat for each of the atom:head children being moved > into > atom:entry. > > e. > --Apple-Mail-9--715771873-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 06:24:29 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA13308 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 06:24:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9BG6Ym053385; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 03:16:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9BG6XN053383; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 03:16:06 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail58-s.fg.online.no (mail58-s.fg.online.no [148.122.161.58]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9BG58r053312 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 03:16:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from arve@virtuelvis.com) Received: from mail.online.no (ti132110a080-2382.bb.online.no [80.212.217.78]) by mail58.fg.online.no (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA9BFnlw014950 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:15:52 +0100 (MET) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:16:08 +0100 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Explicit deletion of feed items? From: "Arve Bersvendsen" Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I recently checked out my comment feeds in Bloglines, and noticed one problem: The spam I take so much care to delete from my feeds remain visible in BlogLines, and probably at a heap of other sources. Instead of forcing aggregator services to implement spam filters, I'd rather just be able to tell them myself by indicating that an entry is revoked. How could we do this? 2004-12-31T12:00:00Z ? -- Arve Bersvendsen http://www.bersvendsen.com/ / http://www.virtuelvis.com/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 07:52:09 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA20853 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:52:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9CeQLI008497; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 04:40:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9CeQRj008495; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 04:40:26 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9CePL9008482 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 04:40:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0ccekcs.cable.mindspring.com ([24.199.81.156] helo=[192.168.1.101]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CRVIL-0001jk-KO; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:40:21 +0000 Message-ID: <4190BAB4.4070608@franklinmint.fm> Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 07:40:20 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Antone Roundy CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown References: <1D071E70-3210-11D9-B8B8-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> In-Reply-To: <1D071E70-3210-11D9-B8B8-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Antone Roundy wrote: > > Questions and comments: > > 1) Why does atom:tagline go outside of atom:headentry? Why does > atom:generator go inside atom:headentry? > People seem to want to move atom:tagline. atom:generator is allowed in atom:entry, it's just required in atom:headentry. > 2) Does atom:entry get an atom:version? No, that stays on the feed, though YAGNI. > how does it make sense to put > atom:introspection into atom:entry vs. atom:headentry? same question for > atom:post? What doesn't make sense? same question for atom:post. > does atom:headentry get an atom:edit? It could, but that's optional. > if so, can it be used > to edit the atom:tagline, even though that's not in atom:headentry? if > not, how is atom:tagline going to be edited? ...and so on. Maybe the tagline is not editable. It currently isn't. > There seem > to be lots of differences between the contents of atom:head (or > atom:headentry) and atom:entry. With only section 4.2.11 being removed, > how does this substantially shorten the spec? I should have included a section that says to remove all of section 4. Whoops. > > 3) Could you elaborate on "Allows a straightforward way to implement > hierarchy". I think I sort of get it, but this feels like a much bigger > shift than the sparse language of the Pace would imply. > Well, it makes it possible to have every entry become a feed/collection, a very common request (often seen on lj_dev, for example). It's kind of a big shift I guess, but like Graham said, 90% of the elements were the same. > 4) atom:headentry? he a dentry? what does this have to do with teeth? > ;-) Seriously though, why not stick with the name atom:head, even if it > is to be some sort of Entry Construct? > Sure, I just couldn't think of a decent name. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 08:14:35 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA23085 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:14:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9D7Zcw018254; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 05:07:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9D7ZmT018253; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 05:07:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.verisignlabs.com (cliffie.verisignlabs.com [65.201.175.9]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9D7Ufs018172 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 05:07:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sah@428cobrajet.net) Received: from dul1shollenbl1 ([::ffff:130.129.135.149]) (AUTH: LOGIN shollenb, SSL: TLSv1/SSLv3,128bits,RC4-MD5) by mail.verisignlabs.com with esmtp; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 08:07:22 -0500 id 005405CC.4190C10A.00000282 From: "Scott Hollenbeck" To: "'Dare Obasanjo'" Cc: "'Atom WG'" Subject: RE: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:07:30 -0500 Message-ID: <7468147AEE316B41B3B55152959CE2181291E2@dul1wnexm05.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <20041109044052.59165.qmail@web40823.mail.yahoo.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iA9D7Yfs018248 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > -----Original Message----- > From: Dare Obasanjo [mailto:kpako@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 11:41 PM > To: mint@franklinmint.fm > Cc: Tim Bray; Atom WG > Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat [snip] > No public standards body I am aware of isn't guilty of > this today. The IETF (which Atom will be published > under) has a particularly nasty habit of not even > bothering to update specs at all which is a LOT WORSE > than updating them without revving the spec. This is an artifact of the IETF "membership" (perhaps more accurately described as the "lack of formal membership") structure. If no one is willing to volunteer to do the work, the specs don't get updated. The positive aspect of this structure is that *anyone* who has an interest in the topic can step up to the task if they wish. It just takes someone willing to make the commitment. Yes, this sometimes means that implementers do their own thing when the need arises and no one has the interest or energy to work on the specs. It's a part of the culture that we recognize and try to deal with when people *do* express enough interest. -Scott- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 09:08:31 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA29266 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:08:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9Dvb6n040973; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 05:57:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9DvbKZ040972; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 05:57:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [130.129.135.64] ([130.129.134.108]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9DvUgM040888; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 05:57:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3898491A-31E0-11D9-AF3E-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> References: <6451CEF8-31D3-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <3898491A-31E0-11D9-AF3E-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:57:35 -0500 To: Graham , Tim Bray From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat Cc: Atom WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At 11:45 PM +0000 11/8/04, Graham wrote: >You may want to, but you and Sam and Paul have promised too many >people that things would be revisited later. I, as you may have >noticed, think the spec sucks in many many places, but more than >that I was under the impression that there would be time to revisit >and reword and rearrange things after the content of the spec has >been finalized. Are we not bothering with that? We are bothering with that right now; that's the purpose behind the call. Please list the specific "to be revisited" that you think are important for the core of Atom. If there is agreement in the WG, we will definitely work on them. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 09:15:34 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA00217 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:15:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9E9tqY046938; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 06:09:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9E9taO046937; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 06:09:55 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [130.129.135.64] ([130.129.134.108]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9E9r9H046914 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 06:09:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20041109044052.59165.qmail@web40823.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041109044052.59165.qmail@web40823.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:08:54 -0500 To: Atom WG From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At 8:40 PM -0800 11/8/04, Dare Obasanjo wrote: >No public standards body I am aware of isn't guilty of >this today. The IETF (which Atom will be published >under) has a particularly nasty habit of not even >bothering to update specs at all which is a LOT WORSE >than updating them without revving the spec. Your generalization is cute, but wrong. Some specs get ignored, but NNTP is not one of them. NNTP community has been working for years on a revision. The fact that they haven't finished is a comment on the NNTP community, not on the IETF, which keeps prodding them to finish. To the best of my knowledge, no one from your employer is participating, or even following the Working Group, even though you are a major user of the spec. >How to deal with errata to specs is a problem that no >one has really figured out how to solve yet. Remove >the log from your own eye and all that... Wrong. RFCs have errata collected in a single place. See , which is linked from the RFC Editor's home page. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 10:13:11 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA06877 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:13:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9F3Xar070324; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:03:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9F3X2Q070322; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:03:33 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9F3SwD070291 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:03:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 75845 invoked by uid 17064); 9 Nov 2004 15:03:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.20]) ([83.112.227.155]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 9 Nov 2004 15:03:29 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <7BA10B5A-3260-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: atom-owl@googlegroups.com From: Henry Story Subject: solving the extensibility problem Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 16:03:15 +0100 To: Atom WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If the Atom working group wants to move along quickly the extensibility problem has to be solved. A good extensibility model for atom means that a lot of issues need not be resolved immediately. Those issues that don't get a wide consensus don't need to be dealt with now. Only the best understood elements need go into the spec. Further additions can be left to the extension mechanism, and be integrated in later revisions when they are better understood. A good extension mechanism will mean a spec out of the door much sooner than otherwise. And the best extension mechanism is RDF. Now some are going to scream to high heaven hearing this. "How do you think ", they will say jumping up and down, " how on earth do you think you are going to get consensus on this !? By the time we have finished the debate about RDF, the end of the universe will be nigh, and the heavens will be falling upon us!" So here I propose two ways to do this that should be relatively easy, and should satisfy those that don't want to touch RDF with a barge-pole, yet make them really happy because they will have a great spec to work with real soon. A COMPARISON ============ The idea is to try to work from both ends: try to get an rdf format that resembles as closely as possible the current Atom spec, and perhaps make a few adjustments in the Atom spec if needed. Essentially we would like the following to be RDF: Example Feed 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z John Doe Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok vemmi://example.org/2003/32397 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z So this is the closest I have come to the above [1] Example Feed 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z John Doe Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z So what differences does this example reveal? (more elaborate examples will of course reveal more) - there is a rdf:parseType="Resource" on the head and the entry element - there is a rdf:datatype on the date constructs - the link has a rdf:resource instead of the src - "Feed" is in captials because it is a node, the rest are lowercase because they are relations Otherwise we have something very similar in the structure. TWO SOLUTIONS ============= So we could do one of two things: A. tweak the current Atom standard just enough so that it is not RDF but would without any problems be RDF if the rdf:parseType, rdf:datatype, ... attributes get added. With a formal model backing it (where the predicates would be defined using the correct namespace, placed at the correct http location), this would allow people who want to extend Atom to add those missing attributes, and thereby turn Atom into RDF, giving them all the extensibility they desire. Simple xml parsers will have to be told to ignore any attributes or constructs that are not in the spec. The people extending Atom in this way will only be able to say it is atom, if an Atom parser that ignores all the RDF magic can parse the feed correctly. B. Bite the bullet and add the rdf magic in the spec. This would mean that any Atom Feed would be parsable by an RDF parser, as well as a simple XML one. TODO ==== Either of these solutions will require a little understanding and ability to compromise on both sides of the debate. There is an Atom-OWL list on google [3] that may be a good place to discuss this in more details. Because clearly there is still a lot of work to be done getting tidying up the details of the OWL spec to get it closer to what the Atom group is working on. Perhaps we could first start off by having everybody out there who thinks this is a good idea, give some +1, so that we know there is some momentum behind this. All the best, Henry Story http://bblfish.net/blog/ [1] This is after reading the very good article http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-syntax-grammar/ Someone with more experience may do a lot better. [2] I use the new Atom.owl spec I have made available at http://bblfish.net/work/atom-owl/2004-11-09/Atom.owl http://bblfish.net/work/atom-owl/2004-11-09/Atom.html (ignore the W3C Recommendation on the right hand side :-) [3] http://groups-beta.google.com/group/atom-owl From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 10:14:54 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA07140 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:14:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9F4wfd070942; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:04:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9F4wDD070941; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:04:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9F4wqe070901 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:04:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004110915045001400s50fre>; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:04:55 +0000 Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:04:49 -0700 Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, November 9, 2004, at 06:57 AM, Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: > Please list the specific "to be revisited" that you think are > important for the core of Atom. If there is agreement in the WG, we > will definitely work on them. > * Links: I'd love to see this nailed down a little better, but my hope of reaching consensus is fading, and I don't know how much more energy I'll feel inclined to contribute to the effort. If we're going to punt on making this really good, but there are any minor tweaks that we CAN agree on, let's at least do those. * PaceHeadInEntry: Is there any reason not to put this in? (Note: I think it could use an example of an aggregated feed--the only example it has now is Atom over XMPP.) * Categories: Sometimes useful. Never problematic, as far as I can tell. Shouldn't be too hard to nail down the specifics. Let's put it in. * Enclosures/Images (both "favicons" and other feed- or entry-related images): Although one might use HTML in the content to point to some of these, for CaRP (which displays newsfeeds on webpages), I find it extremely useful to have these in a separate element--it gives the user much greater flexibility in formatting the output. Of course, if the publisher wants an image to be displayed in a particular way in relation to the rest of the content, then pointing to it from within the content is necessary, but if they simply want to specify an image (or whatever) to have displayed alongside the content in some way or another, a separate element is preferable. * Explicit entry deletion: Another "why not put it in". Yes, once you've published something, it's out there, and you can't expunge it completely, but Arve's use-case[1] for deletion shows that there would be a real benefit to having a deletion mechanism (assuming it would get implemented, which I expect it would). This should be easy enough to hammer out specifics for[2]. Let's do it. * General Extensibility: I see no reason to rush to 1.0 without nailing this down better. On the other hand, I personally don't care much about the specifics, so I also see no reason to wrangle over them for a long time, if that's what would have to happen to get it done. Antone [1] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11312.html [2] I can think of two methods--perhaps these have already been discussed on the list--I don't remember. One would be to add a date construct as a child of atom:entry to mark a deletion date. The problem is, of course, that you have to send a complete entry to say that it's not there anymore. The other is to create a child of atom:feed that just indicates the ID of a deleted entry. A feed might contain a sliding window not only on entries, but another sliding window on the most recent deletions. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 10:23:22 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA08542 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:23:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9FGD14074118; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:16:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9FGDf1074117; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:16:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40822.mail.yahoo.com (web40822.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.92.69]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA9FGDg6074079 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:16:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 13721 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Nov 2004 15:16:05 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=dayiK5+8TZpk1+FTavpcPcNtyTP65MD1bQ5UPbCyKFrupO8LNoHiKVJ1UF9XW9nqbN3NLW50d6lo0NBrFwasYE9R4vrrY0QZAFzzYHrh5RxvJW/aKWtz2v52tOEzgS4l+0aQYapVItCRPKYflzz+PC3NkqFuuQrZjkyOpZScb8E= ; Message-ID: <20041109151605.13719.qmail@web40822.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.160.86.108] by web40822.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 07:16:05 PST Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:16:05 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: IETF Specs and Errata (was Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat) To: Paul Hoffman / IMC , Atom WG In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This thread is offtopic so I'm changing the title --- Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: > > Your generalization is cute, but wrong. Some specs > get ignored, but > NNTP is not one of them. NNTP community has been > working for years on > a revision. The fact that they haven't finished is a > comment on the > NNTP community, not on the IETF, which keeps > prodding them to finish. As an implementer, there is no difference between an abandoned spec and one whose status is in limbo because the "community has been working for years on a revision". I find it disingenious to blame the faceless "NNTP community" when the fact is the RFC is an IETF spec. I wouldn't expect the W3C to blame the "XML query community" for the lack of advancement of XQuery. > To the best of my knowledge, no one from your > employer is > participating, or even following the Working Group, > even though you > are a major user of the spec. I'm not really sure what that has to do with anything. I don't represent Microsoft on this list (that's why I'm not posting from my Microsoft email address) so I don't speak for it here and even if I did this doesn't change the fact that the NNTP spec is woefully outdated. > >How to deal with errata to specs is a problem that > no > >one has really figured out how to solve yet. Remove > >the log from your own eye and all that... > > Wrong. RFCs have errata collected in a single place. > See > , which is > linked from the RFC > Editor's home page. Ideally, a spec should never change after being produced but since it is created by humans there are bugs which oftentimes just have to be fixed. To me the IETF approach seems very problematic compared to the W3C approach [which also has its issues which is why I state no one has really figured out how to solve this yet]. 1.) IETF approach: I go to an RFC page, read it diligently and implement it as specified. However there are errata which are dumped in some database on a separate site which isn't even linked to so they are undiscoverable. Some other implementation finds the errata page due to its developers being savvy with the IETF way and implements spec + errata. We can't interop with each other and our customers & support folks don't know why since we implement the RFC as specced. 2.) W3C approach: I go to a W3C recommendation page, read it diligently and implement it as specified. Later on there are errata which live on a separate but linked site. Eventually the old spec is replaced by old spec + errata folded in. The problems with this approach are similar to the IETF case before the errata are folded in. Afterwards there is some confusion when the in now turns out there are separate revs of the spec which have the same URL and version number/namespace name (e.g. XML 1.0 second edition, XML Schema second edition, etc). Both of these approaches have their issues which I've had to deal with as an implementer of Web specifications. To me the W3C approach tries to strike a good balance while the IETF approach just sounds like a recipe for lack of interoperability. ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 10:24:19 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA08771 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:24:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9FHnW2074746; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:17:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9FHnac074745; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:17:49 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9FHmaJ074690 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:17:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jarober@gosmalltalk.com) Received: from victoria (pcp0010742366pcs.howard01.md.comcast.net[69.243.80.227]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with ESMTP id <20041109151744012009ppree>; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:17:44 +0000 Received: from james2.gosmalltalk.com ([10.55.1.104]) by victoria (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id iA9FHiA25004 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:17:44 -0500 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20041109101647.06ac4758@www.gosmalltalk.com> X-Sender: jarober@gosmalltalk.com@www.gosmalltalk.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 10:17:41 -0500 To: atom-syntax@imc.org From: James Robertson Subject: Re: solving the extensibility problem In-Reply-To: <7BA10B5A-3260-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> References: <7BA10B5A-3260-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At 10:03 AM 11/9/2004, you wrote: >If the Atom working group wants to move along quickly the extensibility >problem has to be solved. A good extensibility model for atom means that a >lot of issues need not be resolved immediately. Those issues that don't >get a wide consensus don't need to be dealt with now. Only the best >understood elements need go into the spec. Further additions can be left >to the extension mechanism, and be integrated in later revisions when they >are better understood. A good extension mechanism will mean a spec out of >the door much sooner than otherwise. > >And the best extension mechanism is RDF. Without commenting on the merits of RDF, I think that RSS 2.0 demonstrates the real-world fact that using namespaced modules works. >Now some are going to scream to high heaven hearing this. "How do you >think ", they will say jumping up and down, " how on earth do you think >you are going to get consensus on this !? By the time we have finished the >debate about RDF, the end of the universe will be nigh, and the heavens >will be falling upon us!" > >So here I propose two ways to do this that should be relatively easy, and >should satisfy those that don't want to touch RDF with a barge-pole, yet >make them really happy because they will have a great spec to work with >real soon. > >A COMPARISON >============ > >The idea is to try to work from both ends: try to get an rdf format that >resembles as closely as possible the current Atom spec, and perhaps make a >few adjustments in the Atom spec if needed. > >Essentially we would like the following to be RDF: > > > xmlns="http://purl.org/atom/ns#draft-ietf-atompub-format-03"> > > Example Feed > > 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z > > John Doe > > > > Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok > > vemmi://example.org/2003/32397 > 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z > > > >So this is the closest I have come to the above [1] > > > xmlns:rdf="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#"> > > Example Feed > > rdf:datatype="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#dateTime" > >2003-12-13T18:30:02Z > > John Doe > > > > Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok > rdf:resource="http://example.org/2003/12/13/atom03"/> > > rdf:datatype="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#dateTime" > >2003-12-13T18:30:02Z > > > >So what differences does this example reveal? (more elaborate examples >will of course reveal more) > - there is a rdf:parseType="Resource" on the head and the entry > element > - there is a rdf:datatype on the date constructs > - the link has a rdf:resource instead of the src > - "Feed" is in captials because it is a node, the rest are > lowercase because they > are relations > >Otherwise we have something very similar in the structure. > >TWO SOLUTIONS >============= > >So we could do one of two things: > > A. tweak the current Atom standard just enough so that it is not > RDF but would >without any problems be RDF if the rdf:parseType, rdf:datatype, ... >attributes get added. With a formal model backing it (where the predicates >would be defined using the correct namespace, placed at the correct http >location), this would allow people who want to extend Atom to add those >missing attributes, and thereby turn Atom into RDF, giving them all the >extensibility they desire. Simple xml parsers will have to be told to >ignore any attributes or constructs that are not in the spec. The people >extending Atom in this way will only be able to say it is atom, if an Atom >parser that ignores all the RDF magic can parse the feed correctly. > > B. Bite the bullet and add the rdf magic in the spec. This would > mean that any Atom Feed would be parsable by an RDF parser, as well as a > simple XML one. > > >TODO >==== > > Either of these solutions will require a little understanding and > ability to compromise on both sides of the debate. There is an Atom-OWL > list on google [3] that may be a good place to discuss this in more > details. Because clearly there is still a lot of work to be done getting > tidying up the details of the OWL spec to get it closer to what the Atom > group is working on. > >Perhaps we could first start off by having everybody out there who thinks >this is a good idea, give some +1, so that we know there is some momentum >behind this. > >All the best, > > Henry Story > http://bblfish.net/blog/ > > >[1] This is after reading the very good article > http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-syntax-grammar/ > Someone with more experience may do a lot better. > >[2] I use the new Atom.owl spec I have made available at > http://bblfish.net/work/atom-owl/2004-11-09/Atom.owl > http://bblfish.net/work/atom-owl/2004-11-09/Atom.html > (ignore the W3C Recommendation on the right hand side :-) > >[3] http://groups-beta.google.com/group/atom-owl > > > > > James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView Cincom Smalltalk User Conference! http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView?entry=3275631428 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 10:31:43 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA09454 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:31:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9FNu4Y077427; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:23:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9FNupj077426; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:23:56 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9FNuRh077345 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:23:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 94012 invoked by uid 17064); 9 Nov 2004 15:23:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.20]) ([83.112.227.155]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 9 Nov 2004 15:23:48 -0000 In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041109101647.06ac4758@www.gosmalltalk.com> References: <7BA10B5A-3260-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20041109101647.06ac4758@www.gosmalltalk.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <57ABEDC4-3263-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Henry Story Subject: Re: solving the extensibility problem Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 16:23:43 +0100 To: James Robertson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9 Nov 2004, at 16:17, James Robertson wrote: > > At 10:03 AM 11/9/2004, you wrote: > >> If the Atom working group wants to move along quickly the >> extensibility problem has to be solved. A good extensibility model >> for atom means that a lot of issues need not be resolved immediately. >> Those issues that don't get a wide consensus don't need to be dealt >> with now. Only the best understood elements need go into the spec. >> Further additions can be left to the extension mechanism, and be >> integrated in later revisions when they are better understood. A good >> extension mechanism will mean a spec out of the door much sooner than >> otherwise. >> >> And the best extension mechanism is RDF. > > > Without commenting on the merits of RDF, I think that RSS 2.0 > demonstrates the real-world fact that using namespaced modules works. There are many on this list that don't believe this. I think a very large part of the W3C does not believe this, and the guy who invented the Web, Tim Berner's Lee, who thought about it in the early 80ies, when most people had trouble understanding what computers were, let alone the net, does not believe this. So please people don't respond to this. I want to know who thinks this is a good idea first. Thanks, Henry Story http://bblfish.net/blog/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 10:35:11 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA09997 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:35:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9FSnfp079536; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:28:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9FSnCB079535; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:28:49 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9FSnvv079505 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:28:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <20041109152846015007kr9ue>; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:28:46 +0000 Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:28:45 -0700 Subject: Re: solving the extensibility problem Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <7BA10B5A-3260-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Message-Id: <0BB02554-3264-11D9-A07E-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, November 9, 2004, at 08:03 AM, Henry Story wrote: > A. tweak the current Atom standard just enough so that it is not RDF > but would > without any problems be RDF if the rdf:parseType, rdf:datatype, ... > attributes get added. With a formal model backing it (where the > predicates would be defined using the correct namespace, placed at the > correct http location), this would allow people who want to extend > Atom to add those missing attributes, and thereby turn Atom into RDF, > giving them all the extensibility they desire. Simple xml parsers will > have to be told to ignore any attributes or constructs that are not in > the spec. The people extending Atom in this way will only be able to > say it is atom, if an Atom parser that ignores all the RDF magic can > parse the feed correctly. > Based on your example, I don't think I'd have a problem with this, but I'd have to see more details fleshed out. For those who don't want to go whole-hog, the differences in your example would be: * change "feed" to "Feed" * add xmlns:rdf="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#" in * change @href to @rdf:resource in None of those changes looks painful to me. The questions I have are: 1) whether more drastic changes would be needed to other elements or attributes that aren't found in the example. 2) how this might affect extensions--what constraints would need to be placed on extensions to ensure that they can play nicely in both RDF and non-RDF Atom feeds? Antone From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 10:37:53 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA10571 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:37:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9FTNAl079804; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:29:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9FTNe5079802; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:29:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9FTMEq079758 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:29:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jarober@gosmalltalk.com) Received: from victoria (pcp0010742366pcs.howard01.md.comcast.net[69.243.80.227]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with ESMTP id <20041109152919015007j7f7e>; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:29:20 +0000 Received: from james2.gosmalltalk.com ([10.55.1.104]) by victoria (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id iA9FTIA25013 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:29:19 -0500 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20041109102638.02b95c60@www.gosmalltalk.com> X-Sender: jarober@gosmalltalk.com@www.gosmalltalk.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 10:29:19 -0500 To: atom-syntax@imc.org From: James Robertson Subject: Re: solving the extensibility problem In-Reply-To: <57ABEDC4-3263-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> References: <7BA10B5A-3260-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20041109101647.06ac4758@www.gosmalltalk.com> <57ABEDC4-3263-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: >>>And the best extension mechanism is RDF. >> >> >>Without commenting on the merits of RDF, I think that RSS 2.0 >>demonstrates the real-world fact that using namespaced modules works. > >There are many on this list that don't believe this. I think a very large >part of the W3C does not believe this, and the guy who invented the Web, >Tim Berner's Lee, who thought about it in the early 80ies, when most >people had trouble understanding what computers were, let alone the net, >does not believe this. They can disbelieve it all they want. The fact is, there are a large number of namespaced modules for RSS 2.0, and most aggregators support an awful lot of them. In BottomFeeder, it takes me a few minutes to support any new module that seems to be of interest. So what people 'believe' is irrelevant. Facts are stubborn things. Now, whether that's the best mechanism for extensibility? That's a good question. I'd have to say that the simple "It's worked so far" argument carries a lot of weight. >So please people don't respond to this. too late :) >I want to know who thinks this is a good idea first. > >Thanks, > > Henry Story > http://bblfish.net/blog/ > > > James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView Cincom Smalltalk User Conference! http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView?entry=3275631428 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 10:39:24 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA10726 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:39:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9FV2vu080607; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:31:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9FV2tp080606; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:31:02 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9FV1Je080529; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:31:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA9FBCJs011973; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:11:12 GMT In-Reply-To: References: <6451CEF8-31D3-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <3898491A-31E0-11D9-AF3E-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-4--700696988; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <96E44BDC-3261-11D9-BAE2-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Cc: Tim Bray , Atom WG From: Graham Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:11:10 +0000 To: Paul Hoffman / IMC X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-4--700696988 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9 Nov 2004, at 1:57 pm, Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: > Please list the specific "to be revisited" that you think are > important for the core of Atom. If there is agreement in the WG, we > will definitely work on them. A quick glance through the current spec shows: - atom:updated is currently required. I think this will lead to it being polluted with general "Last Modified" dates, severely limiting its usefulness. Seeing as it is not possible to make an element optional after v1.0, but it is possible to do the reverse, this one seems urgent. - The discredited atom:id canonicalization nonsense still stands - The use of terminology is very poor. For example, several elements define whether they can "change" or not. How can a server ever change something after it has been transmitted? What we mean to say is whether or not all instances of an entry should have the same value. - ditto "permanent, universally unique identifier" - No discussion on how xml:space applies to content types - type="TEXT" does not define handling of line breaks - No discussion on whether whitespace or parameters are allowed in @type - Section 6 "Managing Feed State" could be a key differentiator between Atom and RSS if it were written rather than dropped I'll admit to not being familiar with the process. Should the WG have taken a moment to fully vet their spec before asking the rest of the IETF to? Graham --Apple-Mail-4--700696988 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMTA5MTUxMTEwWjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUPp+6JZWpo+BvY+pv/ZP3rOkA dkcweAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEAdzH3zO2KCaEypQIzLCzIo2TS pbZ1G9n0ttiHXruq6jYnR5pL60fv5GvKw2cmKhlzkPIw34EieFo4CZgIoU/hVJ8gmqk+JFz3gDzJ XASi8MQTrO1GC5IrdPzcUyqk36qJtyXiV4kOm7N1hy+AkgaJDZImsurK9YmVllRoFWilK9NBWYiQ 1bHmsnfHKcoCtLDheAUTf0jfSiyEox74bVbM44dX0ZcuyilFHZKIho0th4749yI6nWFew+MjN6pl QYV4G1aLudAL2pFrfbU9N6zASTA5Z2mcTYzVUm9H1TSvqWyphjHdYkT1TFcIk7Fy0QB3yaLXMD5e CzdqWaQYCGkITwAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-4--700696988-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 10:44:15 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA11205 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:44:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9FbtXJ083063; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:37:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9Fbts7083062; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:37:55 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40801.mail.yahoo.com (web40801.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.78.178]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA9FbtYv083016 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:37:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 47855 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Nov 2004 15:37:47 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=jyKFkZNS9iv6Jq/Jd+cJamAI/hXH9FRa1+IXb9whxechb9GnmNpIglaNkBatP0nnD0DdBZx0ToYYNWJ4JiXBiB7/UNQhBv5h2JYTVlhjHulV6w8JyNHqthl1Vmv0iYOLNHc1VNUnzywa4gmKyDHmNnLiJofp5qn9YG2nYUMG+NI= ; Message-ID: <20041109153747.47853.qmail@web40801.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.160.86.108] by web40801.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 07:37:47 PST Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:37:47 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: solving the extensibility problem To: Henry Story , Atom WG Cc: atom-owl@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <7BA10B5A-3260-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --- Henry Story wrote: > > And the best extension mechanism is RDF. Can you explain to me in one paragraph or so how RSS 1.0 (based on RDF) is more extensible than (RSS 2.0) preferrably using examples from actual practice? > A COMPARISON > ============ > > The idea is to try to work from both ends: try to > get an rdf format > that resembles as closely as possible the current > Atom spec, and > perhaps make a few adjustments in the Atom spec if > needed. Re-opening the "Should Atom use RDF or not debate" doesn't seem like a good way to lead to closing down the discussion on Atom and extensibility. Instead it seems like another permathread waiting brew that will eventually lead to a lot of spilled text and little change to the draft spec. ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 10:56:28 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA12655 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:56:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9Fmawq087184; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:48:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9Fma7M087183; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:48:36 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9FmZxF087166 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:48:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CRYEU-0008Ma-8e; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 15:48:34 +0000 Message-ID: <4190E6D2.8040805@franklinmint.fm> Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 10:48:34 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Robertson CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: solving the extensibility problem References: <7BA10B5A-3260-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20041109101647.06ac4758@www.gosmalltalk.com> <57ABEDC4-3263-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20041109102638.02b95c60@www.gosmalltalk.com> In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041109102638.02b95c60@www.gosmalltalk.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Robertson wrote: > > They can disbelieve it all they want. The fact is, there are a large > number of namespaced modules for RSS 2.0, and most aggregators support > an awful lot of them. In BottomFeeder, it takes me a few minutes to > support any new module that seems to be of interest. > > So what people 'believe' is irrelevant. Facts are stubborn things. > > Now, whether that's the best mechanism for extensibility? That's a good > question. I'd have to say that the simple "It's worked so far" argument > carries a lot of weight. That's a good point, though calling them "modules" is kind of overblown. A more interesting question might be which common extensions would be invalid RDF in RSS 1.0. Almost all extensions seem to consist of a single element with a text value. RSS 1.0 seems quite popular, so I wouldn't say the victory is decisive for either approach. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 10:59:43 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA12811 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:59:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9Fqt4h089284; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:52:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9Fqt5O089283; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:52:55 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9Fqsfs089270; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:52:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CRYIg-00005A-6L; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 15:52:54 +0000 Message-ID: <4190E7D6.5050204@franklinmint.fm> Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 10:52:54 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham CC: Paul Hoffman / IMC , Tim Bray , Atom WG Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat References: <6451CEF8-31D3-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <3898491A-31E0-11D9-AF3E-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <96E44BDC-3261-11D9-BAE2-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <96E44BDC-3261-11D9-BAE2-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > On 9 Nov 2004, at 1:57 pm, Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: > >> Please list the specific "to be revisited" that you think are >> important for the core of Atom. If there is agreement in the WG, we >> will definitely work on them. > > - The use of terminology is very poor. For example, several elements > define whether they can "change" or not. I agree with this one. > I'll admit to not being familiar with the process. Should the WG have > taken a moment to fully vet their spec before asking the rest of the > IETF to? Though I'm guessing I'll disagree with Graham on many of the issues he raised, I agree that calling it done is premature. My issues: PaceFieldingLinks PaceUpdatedDefinition Extensibility Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 11:00:32 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA12900 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:00:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9Fp1R7088180; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:51:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9Fp1wx088179; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:51:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9Fp0OZ088109 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:51:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lavandowska@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so39624wri for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 07:50:52 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=fNj13vrKHZbSzqvYegsNpDXLiyL7UMN+WKzfi3gh8EOhW1o8pqC8F3dmgTyg1E6lc3BivTbP28zJ2DOyyGAS7bYpEopqga+PL/RuEJdx244uaFauTyxS7SsjTzbMD5zDesmj3PdPy73bag6WNbjkup/alvHe8f8CfbGcKLpycXw= Received: by 10.54.54.78 with SMTP id c78mr56351wra; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 07:50:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.45.64 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:50:52 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <96d7d77c041109075021a36273@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:50:52 -0600 From: Lance Lavandowska Reply-To: Lance Lavandowska To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement In-Reply-To: <1DF8C33F-31F1-11D9-B4E5-000A95CFF6CC@sixapart.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <032BDE48-31DE-11D9-B8B8-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <1DF8C33F-31F1-11D9-B4E5-000A95CFF6CC@sixapart.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:46:04 -0800, Ezra Cooper wrote: > > FWIW, the protocol design team came out pretty firmly against the idea > of enforcing a hierarchy on categories > (categories-as-discoverable-protocol-items, that is). DAGs were thought > to be a realistic use-case, and maybe other non-hierarchical > structures, too. > > If a category element is needed in the feed format, let's not impose > any relationships between them. What use could it have? If there are > existing schemes that are hierarchical, then consumers can make use of > that meaning. I want to make sure I understand the full import of what you are saying here. Are you suggesting Atom not define any mechanism for defining hierarchy and/or other relationships? One of the earlier proposals (cannot find the Pace now) was for something along the lines of: Animals Mammals Felines I have the same problems with using the slash character as you, and this seems a reasonable mechanism for describing hierarchy in ad hoc systems (if a bit verbose). Add in @id and I could declare all my categories in the Feed and then reference them in each entry: Lance Lavandowska From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 11:01:59 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA13073 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:01:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9Ft3ZM090355; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:55:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9Ft35U090354; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:55:03 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.201]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9Ft3pc090284 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:55:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lavandowska@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so40110wri for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 07:55:00 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=Kpe1V9Xs30torTJksmijP9Kkko1sYCQfbaZT1hL1IiIsoqXOrkoPc5qFXSQ6Lwu3aJ4PPCxshzTbkUnPfQ+W236OKWfEOsGO5SRoai7mCELtpyS8buC2oEL3X/dVKemPPnmqQm07moc6JIsfTqOS1SsV5wIwEghf2MWRu0KfnHI= Received: by 10.54.54.74 with SMTP id c74mr57043wra; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 07:55:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.45.64 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:55:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <96d7d77c0411090755d8ebe54@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:55:00 -0600 From: Lance Lavandowska Reply-To: Lance Lavandowska To: Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown (was: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement) In-Reply-To: <3f1451f5041108203978605fcc@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <240C2560-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <4471C014-31D4-11D9-ADD6-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <41901A1B.2030707@franklinmint.fm> <3f1451f5041108203978605fcc@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 23:39:32 -0500, Joe Gregorio wrote: > > On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 20:15:07 -0500, Robert Sayre wrote: > > > > Make atom:tagline a child of atom:feed, which must appear before > > atom:headentry. > > This is the only part I don't understand. You made atom:generator > a mandatory part of atom:headentry, why not atom:tagline? Since neither is part of the Entry construct perhaps they both should be children of atom:feed. Lance Lavandowska From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 11:02:02 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA13101 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:02:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9Fs2kD089869; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:54:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9Fs2lV089868; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:54:02 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40803.mail.yahoo.com (web40803.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.78.180]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA9Fs2Jo089829 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:54:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 51940 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Nov 2004 15:53:59 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=KhWViaaCQgSdibiZoEFSRML4ceu2NzbiVB3ldQsuytJs3W55TEtHaiOIoCbx4zfz342Ay5IqHR7pUVxaYksC9+Ujn8seeiIlEpBcIj1RJeaTAEoxJyOZ4C96gWogFgRl/K07v/q8sZdCi8/22/gCXlHs/HJHjuzWOyKIsjt331c= ; Message-ID: <20041109155359.51938.qmail@web40803.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.160.86.108] by web40803.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 07:53:59 PST Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:53:59 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: solving the extensibility problem To: Henry Story , James Robertson Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <57ABEDC4-3263-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --- Henry Story wrote: > > > Without commenting on the merits of RDF, I think > that RSS 2.0 > > demonstrates the real-world fact that using > namespaced modules works. > > There are many on this list that don't believe this. > I think a very > large part of the W3C does not believe this, and the > guy who invented > the Web, Tim Berner's Lee, who thought about it in > the early 80ies, > when most people had trouble understanding what > computers were, let > alone the net, does not believe this. Argument from authority and conjecture don't hold much weight in technical discussions. Guessing that Tim Berners-Lee and the W3C would be on your side in a debate isn't any way of convincing people of the technical merits of your argument. > I want to know who thinks this is a good idea first. I don't. ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 11:02:34 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA13183 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:02:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9Frx98089849; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:53:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9FrxGo089848; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:53:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9Frwht089839 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:53:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9Fs1ui027791 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:54:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6X006VW5I0LQ@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 08:54:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6X00JNN5HZGS@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 08:54:00 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 07:54:02 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown (was: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement) In-reply-to: <41901A1B.2030707@franklinmint.fm> To: Robert Sayre Cc: Graham , Atom WG Message-id: <938AB426-3267-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <240C2560-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <4471C014-31D4-11D9-ADD6-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <41901A1B.2030707@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 8, 2004, at 5:15 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: > Abstract > ---------------------------------------- > Recast atom:head as an entry. Rob, could you please publish an example of what a feed would look like? The number of changes overflows my input buffer. I'm having trouble understanding the angst. The latest format draft has two different elements (feed and entry) which are quite different things, but share a number of common child elements. So why is this a problem? -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 11:05:17 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA13500 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:05:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9FvAeo091168; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:57:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9FvAQt091167; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:57:10 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9FvAJN091124 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:57:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jarober@gosmalltalk.com) Received: from victoria (pcp0010742366pcs.howard01.md.comcast.net[69.243.80.227]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with ESMTP id <200411091557070160011s11e>; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:57:07 +0000 Received: from james2.gosmalltalk.com ([10.55.1.104]) by victoria (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id iA9Fv6A25037 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:57:06 -0500 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20041109105516.06950428@www.gosmalltalk.com> X-Sender: jarober@gosmalltalk.com@www.gosmalltalk.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 10:57:06 -0500 To: atom-syntax@imc.org From: James Robertson Subject: Re: solving the extensibility problem In-Reply-To: <4190E6D2.8040805@franklinmint.fm> References: <7BA10B5A-3260-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20041109101647.06ac4758@www.gosmalltalk.com> <57ABEDC4-3263-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20041109102638.02b95c60@www.gosmalltalk.com> <4190E6D2.8040805@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: >>So what people 'believe' is irrelevant. Facts are stubborn things. >>Now, whether that's the best mechanism for extensibility? That's a good >>question. I'd have to say that the simple "It's worked so far" argument >>carries a lot of weight. > >That's a good point, though calling them "modules" is kind of overblown. A >more interesting question might be which common extensions would be >invalid RDF in RSS 1.0. Almost all extensions seem to consist of a single >element with a text value. RSS 1.0 seems quite popular, so I wouldn't say >the victory is decisive for either approach. Well, that raises a question - I don't know the answer to it though. Do most aggregators that deal with RSS 1.0 really do RDF, or do they just treat it as a variant syndication format? I know that I didn't bother creating a distinct ability to deal with RDF in BottomFeeder - I'd be curious as to how others dealt with this one. >Robert Sayre > > James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView Cincom Smalltalk User Conference! http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView?entry=3275631428 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 11:09:41 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA13886 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:09:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9G1poJ092595; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:01:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9G1p5j092594; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:01:51 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9G1oQ1092554 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:01:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <20041109160147016001130se>; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 16:01:47 +0000 Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:01:47 -0700 Subject: Re: solving the extensibility problem Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041109102638.02b95c60@www.gosmalltalk.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, November 9, 2004, at 08:29 AM, James Robertson wrote: >>>> And the best extension mechanism is RDF. >>> >>> Without commenting on the merits of RDF, I think that RSS 2.0 >>> demonstrates the real-world fact that using namespaced modules >>> works. >> >> There are many on this list that don't believe this. I think a very >> large part of the W3C does not believe this, and the guy who invented >> the Web, Tim Berner's Lee, who thought about it in the early 80ies, >> when most people had trouble understanding what computers were, let >> alone the net, does not believe this. > > They can disbelieve it all they want. The fact is, there are a large > number of namespaced modules for RSS 2.0, and most aggregators support > an awful lot of them. In BottomFeeder, it takes me a few minutes to > support any new module that seems to be of interest. > Discussions of RDF in mixed company (RDF-using/non-RDF-using) remind me of the book/movie "Flatland". I myself am a Flatlander (non-RDF-using), but I have a sense that there's another world out there that I don't quite understand. Namespaced modules for RSS 2.0 do just fine for those of us who are writing tools to work with newsfeeds, but something tells me that once you start trying to work with many different formats using the same tools, RDF might make your job a lot easier. The RDF-users may wish to confirm or deny that the newsfeed-only vs. many-formats axis is where it really starts to matter. As a Flatlander, I personally don't want Atom to be loaded up with RDF stuff, because it just doesn't matter to me. But if it can be done with minimal changes from what we have now, I see no reason not to do it. Antone From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 11:10:07 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA13969 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:10:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9G0vU6092372; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:00:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9G0vmE092371; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:00:57 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.204]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9G0urv092343 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:00:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lavandowska@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so40684wri for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 08:00:53 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=DvELuxp65HR32GSmdqY9xjmHj14LrONTl9t2+1D6QKz/D41PihNWNzz0QsDIUBSxIL0qKbqreAoNwFbtiEEPgLWUpfEROqGIrtE8to8KlBX1TeDRnCgPaMmxSn3qmiOfaOm0zF1H4Cn4B9TaQO5/aLmnynSIvocIgd7qYtfeoLM= Received: by 10.54.54.63 with SMTP id c63mr58028wra; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 08:00:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.45.64 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:00:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <96d7d77c04110908002648da92@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:00:53 -0600 From: Lance Lavandowska Reply-To: Lance Lavandowska To: Arve Bersvendsen Subject: Re: Explicit deletion of feed items? Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:16:08 +0100, Arve Bersvendsen wrote: > > I recently checked out my comment feeds in Bloglines, and noticed one > problem: > > The spam I take so much care to delete from my feeds remain visible in > BlogLines, and probably at a heap of other sources. Instead of forcing > aggregator services to implement spam filters, I'd rather just be able to > tell them myself by indicating that an entry is revoked. > > How could we do this? > > 2004-12-31T12:00:00Z ? Are you suggesting this as a Service item? Timestamp seems pretty arbitraty. Since each Entry has an ID wouldn't it be best to use that? Or are you suggesting that this is a timestamp property of the Entry whereby clients could observe an item has been removed? The issue of removing published items has come up before with little resolution. Lance From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 11:20:40 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA15297 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:20:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9G96SA094287; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:09:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9G96OB094286; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:09:06 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9G965s094280 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:09:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 39769 invoked by uid 17064); 9 Nov 2004 16:09:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.20]) ([83.112.227.155]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 9 Nov 2004 16:09:09 -0000 In-Reply-To: <20041109155359.51938.qmail@web40803.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041109155359.51938.qmail@web40803.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Dare Obasanjo From: Henry Story Subject: Re: solving the extensibility problem Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:09:04 +0100 To: Atom WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9 Nov 2004, at 16:53, Dare Obasanjo wrote: > > Argument from authority and conjecture don't hold much > weight in technical discussions. Guessing that Tim > Berners-Lee and the W3C would be on your side in a > debate isn't any way of convincing people of the > technical merits of your argument. Arguments from authority do have some weight when you look at the landscape in which you are moving. I trust Tim Berner's Lee has not invented all of RDF and would not be pushing it the way he does if a simple solution could have done just as well. If I play chess with Kasparov, and he tells me that I would be better off not moving my pawn in a certain place, then I will listen, even though I may not understand, even though it may take me a few years of study (if not more) to understand. So I don't want to get in the permathread of whether RSS2.0 extensions are ok. I believe everyone understands that RDF gives us all we need. There may be other weaker mechanisms, but if we try to find these we may never get this spec out of the door. So I say lets go with the best. Secondly I ask you to look at my proposal, and see if it works from within its own perspective. Forget about RSS2.0. I am proposing that we tweak what we have just enough, so that it could be turned into RDF. I AM NOT SAYING THAT WE SHOULD MAKE THE CURRENT SPEC BE RDF! (see solution A) Just that we should allow write it in such a way that people who want to extend it can use that very well documented extension mechanism. In fact if you look carefully: MY SOLUTION DOES NOT EXCLUDE AN RSS2.0 TYPE EXTENSION MECHANISM EITHER! Henry Story From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 11:29:04 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA16342 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:29:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9GJmPh098366; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:19:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9GJmMx098365; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:19:48 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail48-s.fg.online.no (mail48-s.fg.online.no [148.122.161.48]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9GJl1A098315 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:19:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from arve@virtuelvis.com) Received: from mail.online.no (ti132110a080-2382.bb.online.no [80.212.217.78]) by mail48.fg.online.no (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA9GJfub007059; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:19:41 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 17:20:02 +0100 To: "Lance Lavandowska" Subject: Re: Explicit deletion of feed items? Cc: Atom-syntax References: <96d7d77c04110908002648da92@mail.gmail.com> From: "Arve Bersvendsen" Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <96d7d77c04110908002648da92@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:00:53 -0600, Lance Lavandowska wrote: > Or are you suggesting that this is a timestamp property of the Entry > whereby clients could observe an item has been removed? The issue of > removing published items has come up before with little resolution. Yes, I am suggesting "republishing" the entry with explicit information saying, "hey, look at me, I was revoked at this instant in time", as I believe this is the approach that'd require the least amount of change in existing tools, and thus can be implemented with the least amount of fuzz. It could also provide us with a mechanism for stating why the entry was revoked/deleted. ... { deleted, reason } ... where an extension namespace/vocabulary could be developed to allow for clients to use different strategies wrt what to actually do about the revocation - for instance: "Delete spam only". -- Arve Bersvendsen http://www.bersvendsen.com/ / http://www.virtuelvis.com/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 11:29:27 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA16381 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:29:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9GMB2C099296; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:22:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9GMBx3099295; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:22:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9GMAkn099253 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:22:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <20041109162208016001237ke>; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 16:22:08 +0000 Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:22:02 -0700 Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <032BDE48-31DE-11D9-B8B8-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Message-Id: <7D44FADA-326B-11D9-A07E-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, November 8, 2004, at 04:29 PM, Antone Roundy wrote: > On Monday, November 8, 2004, at 02:56 PM, Tim Bray wrote: >> On Nov 8, 2004, at 12:57 PM, Antone Roundy wrote: >>> -1 to any MUSTs for how categories are to be expressed >>> ("slash-separated hierarchical"...). >>> -0.9 to any SHOULDs on how categories are to be expressed. >> >> I think the this/that/the-other usage is well-enough established now >> to qualify as prior art. Anyhow, if you want to have your own >> not-hierarchical categorization scheme, you can, just keep it in your >> own namespace. You can even put it inside atom:category. -Tim >> > How about if @domain is omitted, then categories should be > slash-separated...but if @domain is specified, then use that domain's > way of indicating categories? > Okay, I'm slow, but I'm catching the vision of why it would be good to have a standard way of recognizing that a category specifier specifies not only the end node in the hierarchy, but the path to it. Perhaps we could say that if @domain is not specified, some particular character (whether it be / or | or something else) MUST NOT be used except as a hierarchical level separator, and if @domain is specified...it SHOULD NOT? Or would it be useful to do something like this: Technology*Computers*Internet where, if @domain is not specified, @hierarchy-separator defaults to "/", and if @domain is specified, @hierarchy-separator defaults to undefined. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 11:30:43 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA16536 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:30:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9GOBSr000160; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:24:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9GOBLY000159; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:24:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9GOBVH000151 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:24:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 52042 invoked by uid 17064); 9 Nov 2004 16:24:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.20]) ([83.112.227.155]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 9 Nov 2004 16:24:13 -0000 In-Reply-To: <0BB02554-3264-11D9-A07E-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> References: <0BB02554-3264-11D9-A07E-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: atom-owl@googlegroups.com, Atom WG From: Henry Story Subject: Re: solving the extensibility problem Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:24:10 +0100 To: Antone Roundy X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Antone. These question of yours are exactly the type of questions I am looking forward to getting answered. This is an empirical investigation as I see it. I don't know the answer to these problems, and look forward to fleshing them out. I really look forward to some people with good RDF and XML experience helping us work out the feasibility of this task. Henry Story On 9 Nov 2004, at 16:28, Antone Roundy wrote: > > On Tuesday, November 9, 2004, at 08:03 AM, Henry Story wrote: >> A. tweak the current Atom standard just enough so that it is not RDF >> but would >> without any problems be RDF if the rdf:parseType, rdf:datatype, ... >> attributes get added. With a formal model backing it (where the >> predicates would be defined using the correct namespace, placed at >> the correct http location), this would allow people who want to >> extend Atom to add those missing attributes, and thereby turn Atom >> into RDF, giving them all the extensibility they desire. Simple xml >> parsers will have to be told to ignore any attributes or constructs >> that are not in the spec. The people extending Atom in this way will >> only be able to say it is atom, if an Atom parser that ignores all >> the RDF magic can parse the feed correctly. >> > Based on your example, I don't think I'd have a problem with this, but > I'd have to see more details fleshed out. For those who don't want to > go whole-hog, the differences in your example would be: > > * change "feed" to "Feed" > * add xmlns:rdf="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#" in > * change @href to @rdf:resource in > > None of those changes looks painful to me. The questions I have are: > > 1) whether more drastic changes would be needed to other elements or > attributes that aren't found in the example. > > 2) how this might affect extensions--what constraints would need to be > placed on extensions to ensure that they can play nicely in both RDF > and non-RDF Atom feeds? > > Antone > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 11:31:57 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA16649 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:31:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9GOwjR000549; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:24:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9GOwKu000547; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:24:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.199]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9GOvS3000541 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:24:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so235702rns for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 08:24:58 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=b3RvFpzlw7akLic87pJynotpKLwmEa5jqfMxkXj2R/733thT3d1ANA87TyuwbnrbJa5mFbMHogMgHnCHCPn+ydUSxA2cior4LoTXHNy4+NhEsAIeyMF3KP8SxhkmbuM1D4AASYW3nq/ZkJaGA3sllBfKc32A402T1C9VSgM4ZoY= Received: by 10.38.8.19 with SMTP id 19mr281727rnh; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 08:24:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:24:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04110908243c926084@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:24:58 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: atom-owl@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: solving the extensibility problem Cc: Henry Story , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <20041109153747.47853.qmail@web40801.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <7BA10B5A-3260-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <20041109153747.47853.qmail@web40801.mail.yahoo.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henry, please correct me if I'm wrong on your proposal A : 1. Atom core would remain essentially as-is* 2. Anyone wishing to use an RSS 2.0-style extension mechanism, can do (i.e. anything can go anywhere, leave it to vendors to figure individual interpretations) 3. Anyone wishing to use RDF-based extensions can do, by adding the attributes needed to make the syntax interpretable as RDF/XML, then re-using standard vocabularies in the same manner as RSS 1.0 * there may be minor readjustments needed to align the formats, but I can't see any yet (changing the case of Feed etc isn't essential - RSS 1.0 has lower-case classnames) This seems a low-friction route through the extensibility issue. I could live with it (to the extent that I'd be a lot more comfortable about Declaring Victory). James said "RSS 2.0 demonstrates the real-world fact that using namespaced modules works". I don't believe it does. There are very few extensions in common use. Last time I looked the usage was negligible. I would guess that it's grown now, but nothing like to the extent of extensions in RSS 1.0. If you can show me a few RSS 2.0 feeds carrying more than half-a-dozen extensions, I'll accept the demonstration. Dare, if I understand Henry correctly, I don't think this is really opening the debate as before as the effect on Atom Core is virtually nil. But you wanted a practical example - how about the query "Give me all the mp3 format audio files published by any of the people I know that work for Microsoft in the last week, that are less than 10 minutes long with a review rating better than 8/10, unless the artist name is "Happy Mondays" in which case just give them to me". That can be done today using off-the-shelf tools with virtually no coding (in particular no database structural building, the RDF provides the structure) and using mostly common extensions - MusicBrainz, FOAF, REV etc. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 11:37:20 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA17112 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:37:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9GSVZY001368; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:28:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9GSVUm001367; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:28:31 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9GSU7d001361 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:28:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CRYr6-0001fS-T7; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 16:28:29 +0000 Message-ID: <4190F02D.5040807@franklinmint.fm> Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 11:28:29 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Robertson CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: solving the extensibility problem References: <7BA10B5A-3260-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20041109101647.06ac4758@www.gosmalltalk.com> <57ABEDC4-3263-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20041109102638.02b95c60@www.gosmalltalk.com> <4190E6D2.8040805@franklinmint.fm> <6.1.2.0.2.20041109105516.06950428@www.gosmalltalk.com> In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041109105516.06950428@www.gosmalltalk.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Robertson wrote: >>> So what people 'believe' is irrelevant. Facts are stubborn things. >>> Now, whether that's the best mechanism for extensibility? That's a >>> good question. I'd have to say that the simple "It's worked so far" >>> argument carries a lot of weight. >> >> >> That's a good point, though calling them "modules" is kind of >> overblown. A more interesting question might be which common >> extensions would be invalid RDF in RSS 1.0. Almost all extensions seem >> to consist of a single element with a text value. RSS 1.0 seems quite >> popular, so I wouldn't say the victory is decisive for either approach. > > > Well, that raises a question - I don't know the answer to it though. Do > most aggregators that deal with RSS 1.0 really do RDF, or do they just > treat it as a variant syndication format? I know that I didn't bother > creating a distinct ability to deal with RDF in BottomFeeder - I'd be > curious as to how others dealt with this one. > I think I know the answer to that question. Almost none of them treat RSS 1.0 as RDF. That doesn't mean that producers don't find it convenient, or that the syntactic restrictions of RSS 1.0 don't help interop. All variants of RSS are essentially pseudo-RDF, and we've had a hard time saying anything enlightening about extensibility. I think taking another look at RDF might be worth it (look at the category thread), as long as we can keep the syntax under control. There are certainly downsides to RDF when it comes to validation, so we would definitely benefit from an approach similar to the DOAP project[0], where the format must comply with an RNG schema (or XSD, Schematron, and whatever else Randy feels like writing :). I think Henry's suggestion A is worth looking at, though the link element might have some problems. RSS2-style extensions would still be as straightforward as ever. Robert Sayre [0] http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-osproj3/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 11:44:26 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA18172 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:44:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9GVgHv002273; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:31:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9GVgZa002272; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:31:42 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9GVfRq002250; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:31:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9GVhNH012144; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:31:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6X006I378UCP@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM>; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 09:31:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6X00JXB78TGS@mail.sun.net>; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 09:31:42 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 08:31:45 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat In-reply-to: <4190E7D6.5050204@franklinmint.fm> To: mint@franklinmint.fm Cc: Graham , Paul Hoffman / IMC , Atom WG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <6451CEF8-31D3-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <3898491A-31E0-11D9-AF3E-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <96E44BDC-3261-11D9-BAE2-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <4190E7D6.5050204@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 9, 2004, at 7:52 AM, Robert Sayre wrote: > PaceUpdatedDefinition I just reviewed the answers to Paul's "consensus probe" and it seems clear that the revised text enjoys rough-consensus support. I should let Paul say so but he's dug in at the IETF meeting this week. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 11:45:54 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA18437 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:45:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9GZtYr003197; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:35:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9GZtc1003190; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:35:55 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9GZsTa003150 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:35:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA9GNigr024390; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 16:23:54 GMT In-Reply-To: <938AB426-3267-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <240C2560-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <4471C014-31D4-11D9-ADD6-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <41901A1B.2030707@franklinmint.fm> <938AB426-3267-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-5--696344836; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: Cc: Robert Sayre , Atom WG From: Graham Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown (was: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 16:23:42 +0000 To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-5--696344836 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9 Nov 2004, at 3:54 pm, Tim Bray wrote: > I'm having trouble understanding the angst. The latest format draft > has two different elements (feed and entry) which are quite different > things, but share a number of common child elements. So why is this a > problem? -Tim Because it isn't readable. No one except a machine is capable of reading two wordy near-identical definitions and taking in the subtle differences. What we're doing essentially is hiding that information. Can't we just tell them how something works in atom:head and in atom:entry. An ideal spec layout would be: 2.1 atom:head An atom:head element MUST contain the following child elements: - Exactly 1 atom:title element - 1 or more atom:link elements - etc 2.2 atom:entry ditto 3.1 atom:link [general atom:link definition, followed by] In atom:head, atom:link must blah, whereas in atom:entry blah blah 3.2 atom:title ... 3.3 Date Constructs [general date construct def] 3.3.1 atom:updated 3.3.2 atom:published etc There you go. Note I can code a feed generator just by working through the list in 2.1 and 2.2. 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Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:53:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9GljmW005395; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:47:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9GljAH005394; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:47:45 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9Gljgw005377 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:47:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CRZ9j-0002ib-2v; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 16:47:43 +0000 Message-ID: <4190F4AA.2040203@franklinmint.fm> Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 11:47:38 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Bray CC: Graham , Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <240C2560-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <4471C014-31D4-11D9-ADD6-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <41901A1B.2030707@franklinmint.fm> <938AB426-3267-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > > I disagree with Graham and think that the draft as it stands is > acceptably usable. On the other hand, it might become more so flipped > around this way; what do our editors think? No opinion, but I'm willing to draft it that way to see which one people prefer. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 11:54:37 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA19453 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:54:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9Gj1Ap004714; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:45:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9Gj1rD004713; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:45:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9Gj0PO004704 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:45:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9Gj3ui000300 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:45:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6X00LPY7V2L2@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 09:45:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6X00LIC7UVOZ@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 09:45:02 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 08:44:59 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown (was: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement) In-reply-to: To: Graham Cc: Robert Sayre , Atom WG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <240C2560-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <4471C014-31D4-11D9-ADD6-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <41901A1B.2030707@franklinmint.fm> <938AB426-3267-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Graham's suggesting flipping the draft around to make it read top down... i.e. move section 4. atom:feed up to be section 2. I disagree with Graham and think that the draft as it stands is acceptably usable. On the other hand, it might become more so flipped around this way; what do our editors think? -Tim On Nov 9, 2004, at 8:23 AM, Graham wrote: > An ideal spec layout would be: 2.0 atom:feed An atom:feed element MUST contain one atom:head element and zero or more atom:entry elements > > 2.1 atom:head > An atom:head element MUST contain the following child elements: > - Exactly 1 atom:title element > - 1 or more atom:link elements > - etc > > 2.2 atom:entry > ditto > > 3.1 atom:link > [general atom:link definition, followed by] > In atom:head, atom:link must blah, whereas in atom:entry blah blah > > 3.2 atom:title > ... > > 3.3 Date Constructs > [general date construct def] > 3.3.1 atom:updated > 3.3.2 atom:published > etc > > There you go. Note I can code a feed generator just by working through > the list in 2.1 and 2.2. > > Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 11:54:48 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA19483 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:54:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9GleCn005344; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:47:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9GleRM005343; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:47:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9GleMS005323 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:47:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 70713 invoked by uid 17064); 9 Nov 2004 16:47:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.20]) ([83.112.227.155]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 9 Nov 2004 16:47:40 -0000 In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd04110908243c926084@mail.gmail.com> References: <7BA10B5A-3260-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <20041109153747.47853.qmail@web40801.mail.yahoo.com> <1f2ed5cd04110908243c926084@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <0EFC8253-326F-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: atom-owl@googlegroups.com, Atom WG From: Henry Story Subject: Re: solving the extensibility problem Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:47:35 +0100 To: Danny Ayers X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9 Nov 2004, at 17:24, Danny Ayers wrote: > > Henry, please correct me if I'm wrong on your proposal A : > > 1. Atom core would remain essentially as-is* That would be the name of the game. What are the minimum modifications one would need to make to Atom core for this to work? If one could do it without making any modifications at all that would be the best. The example I gave this morning is something I worked on in the last 24h. So I am sure one can do a lot better. > > 2. Anyone wishing to use an RSS 2.0-style extension mechanism, can do > (i.e. anything can go anywhere, leave it to vendors to figure > individual interpretations) Yes. Why not. Then we will have a multiply extensible extensibility mechanism, and we will have brought the two RSS camps together in a loving embrace. :-) > > 3. Anyone wishing to use RDF-based extensions can do, by adding the > attributes needed to make the syntax interpretable as RDF/XML, then > re-using standard vocabularies in the same manner as RSS 1.0 Yes. > * there may be minor readjustments needed to align the formats, but I > can't see any yet (changing the case of Feed etc isn't essential - RSS > 1.0 has lower-case classnames) > > This seems a low-friction route through the extensibility issue. I > could live with it (to the extent that I'd be a lot more comfortable > about Declaring Victory). These, the questions brought up by Antone Roundy, and others we will discover will need to be addressed. With some good minds on the issues, this hopefully could be done relatively quickly, so that we can get the thing out of the door. > [snip, stuff that answers other questions] > Cheers, > Danny. > > http://dannyayers.com > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 11:55:15 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA19536 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:55:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9Gm1c4005557; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:48:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9Gm1ii005556; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:48:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.195]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9Gm1VC005512 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:48:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so237207rns for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 08:48:01 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=QMyCSzOa1oX2oE4dCZDi1YeVgv1i/B0BoyQvUZgXfN/E/cGfOcO6mtxDJP4RtmNg0r2D0/VHNbkdhLQmHAuoppiDlE5kyaYrq6OUczsFOGU+hnL01EUioUO2KXNzkbG9pu+qexqOqW8qBAT3UJV7BpoAjSjLCz75Mp60K4xYiok= Received: by 10.38.8.19 with SMTP id 19mr293592rnh; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 08:48:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:48:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd041109084813405f88@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:48:00 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: James Robertson Subject: Re: solving the extensibility problem Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041109105516.06950428@www.gosmalltalk.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <7BA10B5A-3260-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20041109101647.06ac4758@www.gosmalltalk.com> <57ABEDC4-3263-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20041109102638.02b95c60@www.gosmalltalk.com> <4190E6D2.8040805@franklinmint.fm> <6.1.2.0.2.20041109105516.06950428@www.gosmalltalk.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 10:57:06 -0500, James Robertson wrote: > Well, that raises a question - I don't know the answer to it though. Do > most aggregators that deal with RSS 1.0 really do RDF, or do they just > treat it as a variant syndication format? I know that I didn't bother > creating a distinct ability to deal with RDF in BottomFeeder - I'd be > curious as to how others dealt with this one. It's a very good question. Most desktop aggregators that I've encountered don't have any general handling of RDF/XML and don't use the generic model (three or four maybe do?). The proportion increases somewhat for server-side aggregation, in fact I've seen tools that depend on the use of other RDF vocabularies (e.g. Chumpalogica uses FOAF for blogrolls). But then every single standard RDF tool can read and use RSS 1.0 directly, because it's RDF/XML, the RDF interchange format. That is a very long list. However you probably wouldn't call many of these aggregators in the usual sense (e.g. http://www.semanticwebsearch.com/). I remain convinced that we'll see an increase in the use of RDF inside and alongside content management systems and aggregators. It can be pretty straightforward to add extension and smart-metadata support in the same way you might add free text search. The RSS 2.0 approach does more or less make simple things simple, but it makes complex things unnecessarily difficult, so I think the future holds diminishing returns there. Meantime the tools for working with RDF are getting more common and easier to use. Below I've pasted the core of an RDF-based aggregator in C# using Carp. Cheers, Danny. KnowledgeBase bloggers = new KnowledgeBase(parserFactory); bloggers.include(new StreamReader("./bloggers.rdf"), ""); Foaf.Agent pattern = new Foaf.Agent(); foreach (Foaf.Agent agent in pattern.findAllMatching( bloggers ) ) { Console.WriteLine( agent[Foaf.name] ); foreach (Foaf.Document doc in agent.weblog) { Console.WriteLine( "Weblog: " + doc ); KnowledgeBase rss = new KnowledgeBase(); rss.investigate( doc , new SeeAlsoPropertyInvestigator()); Rss.Item itemPattern = new Rss.Item(); foreach (Rss.Item item in itemPattern.findAllMatching( rss ) ) { Console.WriteLine( " - " + item.title ); Console.WriteLine( " " + item.description ); } } } from: http://www.semanticplanet.com/2004/10/announcingSemanticPlanetsRDFLibAndCarp -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 12:15:06 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA21353 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:15:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9H60lw012904; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:06:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9H60h9012903; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:06:00 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40801.mail.yahoo.com (web40801.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.78.178]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA9H603K012879 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:06:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 58055 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Nov 2004 17:05:58 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=QwD1Xklfbq+0PVp5P3OPSLS2/w7QT5dgfO9042SiuRqixm7OvkuCaqRs8Q2FXntqJjD3mDGlZUO8pLVrSLUcYlIB1Ye2/9QmkEtxWWzPGvopoQQ1kohTBPG8SIJay+q3f+ACO2hZkiRSJz2R6DmyvQq+OEqjz6041BbzAW4i0jE= ; Message-ID: <20041109170557.58053.qmail@web40801.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.160.86.108] by web40801.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 09:05:57 PST Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:05:57 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: solving the extensibility problem To: Danny Ayers , atom-owl@googlegroups.com Cc: Henry Story , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd04110908243c926084@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --- Danny Ayers wrote: > > James said "RSS 2.0 demonstrates the real-world fact > that using > namespaced modules works". I don't believe it does. > There are very few > extensions in common use. Last time I looked the > usage was negligible. > > I would guess that it's grown now, but nothing like > to the extent of > extensions in RSS 1.0. If you can show me a few RSS > 2.0 feeds > carrying more than half-a-dozen extensions, I'll > accept the > demonstration. > There are as many RSS 2.0 modules as there are RSS 1.0 modules since every aggregator I am aware of respects RSS 1.0 modules that appear in an RSS 2.0 feed. So any argument against the adoption of modules in RSS 2.0 is also one against the adoption of modules in RSS 1.0. Furthermore, given the fact that most aggregators don't even use RDF parsers to process RSS 1.0 feeds it's even hard to argue that RSS 1.0 modules show that RDF-based extensibility works in the wild. This is getting into permathread territory and given the fact I have to finish my 2 talks for XML 2004 next week I won't be continuing this particular conversation thread much further. > Dare, if I understand Henry correctly, I don't think > this is really > opening the debate as before as the effect on Atom > Core is virtually > nil. But you wanted a practical example - how about > the query "Give me > all the mp3 format audio files published by any of > the people I know > that work for Microsoft in the last week, that are > less than 10 > minutes long with a review rating better than 8/10, > unless the artist > name is "Happy Mondays" in which case just give them > to me". That can > be done today using off-the-shelf tools with > virtually no coding (in > particular no database structural building, the RDF > provides the > structure) and using mostly common extensions - > MusicBrainz, FOAF, REV > etc. As I've mentioned in the past, complex querying isn't an interesting scenario for most aggregator users. This has been my experience with RSS Bandit which for the most part has a fairly technical user base who you'd think would enjoy such geeky features. ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 13:23:18 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA27288 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 13:23:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9I8QTg034710; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:08:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9I8QMA034709; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:08:26 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.afp.com (smtp3.afp.com [158.50.208.110]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9I8O6i034657 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:08:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from laurent.lemeur@afp.com) Received: by smtp3.afp.com (Sendmail, from userid 1007) id A0E264656C; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:08:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from alox.afp.com (unknown [158.50.165.141])by smtp3.afp.com (Sendmail) with ESMTPid 12985464F1; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:08:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from sdtc05 ([158.50.180.103])by alox.afp.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9I8EfP024012;Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:08:14 +0100 (MET) From: "Laurent Le Meur" To: "'Atom WG'" Cc: Subject: RE : solving the extensibility problem Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:08:13 +0100 Message-ID: <007101c4c687$143f16a0$67b4329e@afp.local> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <7BA10B5A-3260-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> X-MailScanner: Found to be clean Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: ATFU, http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2002/10/30/rdf-friendly.html gives more information about what is being RDF-friendly. But the modifications could maybe be smaller -> for example making the globally unique "id" an attribute of (it can be mapped to an rdf:about attribute with a simple xslt), defining the Atom-core entry elements as simple RDF-like elements (no mixed content), and allowing any #other# namespaced elements in . But: RDF is about metadata after all. The content part of the entry has nothing to do with RDF. How would you make the separation? Laurent Le Meur Agence France Presse > -----Message d'origine----- > De : owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] De la > part de Henry Story > Envoyé : mardi 9 novembre 2004 16:03 > À : Atom WG > Cc : atom-owl@googlegroups.com > Objet : solving the extensibility problem > > > If the Atom working group wants to move along quickly the extensibility > problem has to be solved. A good extensibility model for atom means > that a lot of issues need not be resolved immediately. Those issues > that don't get a wide consensus don't need to be dealt with now. Only > the best understood elements need go into the spec. Further additions > can be left to the extension mechanism, and be integrated in later > revisions when they are better understood. A good extension mechanism > will mean a spec out of the door much sooner than otherwise. > > And the best extension mechanism is RDF. > > Now some are going to scream to high heaven hearing this. "How do you > think ", they will say jumping up and down, " how on earth do you think > you are going to get consensus on this !? By the time we have finished > the debate about RDF, the end of the universe will be nigh, and the > heavens will be falling upon us!" > > So here I propose two ways to do this that should be relatively easy, > and should satisfy those that don't want to touch RDF with a > barge-pole, yet make them really happy because they will have a great > spec to work with real soon. > > A COMPARISON > ============ > > The idea is to try to work from both ends: try to get an rdf format > that resembles as closely as possible the current Atom spec, and > perhaps make a few adjustments in the Atom spec if needed. > > Essentially we would like the following to be RDF: > > > xmlns="http://purl.org/atom/ns#draft-ietf-atompub-format-03"> > > Example Feed > > 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z > > John Doe > > > > Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok > > vemmi://example.org/2003/32397 > 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z > > > > So this is the closest I have come to the above [1] > > > xmlns:rdf="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#"> > > Example Feed > > >2003-12-13T18:30:02Z > > John Doe > > > > Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok > > > >2003-12-13T18:30:02Z > > > > So what differences does this example reveal? (more elaborate examples > will of course reveal more) > - there is a rdf:parseType="Resource" on the head and the entry element > - there is a rdf:datatype on the date constructs > - the link has a rdf:resource instead of the src > - "Feed" is in captials because it is a node, the rest are lowercase > because they > are relations > > Otherwise we have something very similar in the structure. > > TWO SOLUTIONS > ============= > > So we could do one of two things: > > A. tweak the current Atom standard just enough so that it is not RDF > but would > without any problems be RDF if the rdf:parseType, rdf:datatype, ... > attributes get added. With a formal model backing it (where the > predicates would be defined using the correct namespace, placed at the > correct http location), this would allow people who want to extend Atom > to add those missing attributes, and thereby turn Atom into RDF, giving > them all the extensibility they desire. Simple xml parsers will have to > be told to ignore any attributes or constructs that are not in the > spec. The people extending Atom in this way will only be able to say it > is atom, if an Atom parser that ignores all the RDF magic can parse the > feed correctly. > > B. Bite the bullet and add the rdf magic in the spec. This would mean > that any Atom Feed would be parsable by an RDF parser, as well as a > simple XML one. > > > TODO > ==== > > Either of these solutions will require a little understanding and > ability to compromise on both sides of the debate. There is an Atom-OWL > list on google [3] that may be a good place to discuss this in more > details. Because clearly there is still a lot of work to be done > getting tidying up the details of the OWL spec to get it closer to what > the Atom group is working on. > > Perhaps we could first start off by having everybody out there who > thinks this is a good idea, give some +1, so that we know there is some > momentum behind this. > > All the best, > > Henry Story > http://bblfish.net/blog/ > > > [1] This is after reading the very good article > http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-syntax-grammar/ > Someone with more experience may do a lot better. > > [2] I use the new Atom.owl spec I have made available at > http://bblfish.net/work/atom-owl/2004-11-09/Atom.owl > http://bblfish.net/work/atom-owl/2004-11-09/Atom.html > (ignore the W3C Recommendation on the right hand side :-) > > [3] http://groups-beta.google.com/group/atom-owl > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- DISCLAIMER This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please contact the sender and delete the email from your system. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this email. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 13:39:28 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA28539 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 13:39:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9IXVcJ041054; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:33:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9IXVJI041053; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:33:31 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9IXUKE041001 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:33:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so244018rns for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 10:33:26 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=RGcF7wIqBRdP6pwUS3FLOLYFO32sC70hyuOpv+eqQT1pT5dUfxR+H/FFE0kL/iiK0HrMLTfS8QM6rkTBfMAV4MbPcb6IIyaVWFo84FauLCNkWg+4PcovzWVTn8V0g7ed5DsIC5QPa8ElezfIdy5qq0aVpgeP17wwr3qkxJvYVzU= Received: by 10.38.179.47 with SMTP id b47mr330999rnf; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 10:33:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:33:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04110910331737f218@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:33:26 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: atom-owl@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: RE : solving the extensibility problem Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: <007101c4c687$143f16a0$67b4329e@afp.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <7BA10B5A-3260-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <007101c4c687$143f16a0$67b4329e@afp.local> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:08:13 +0100, Laurent Le Meur wrote: > > ATFU, http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2002/10/30/rdf-friendly.html gives more information > about what is being RDF-friendly. Thanks, good pointer. > But the modifications could maybe be smaller -> for example making the globally > unique "id" an attribute of (it can be mapped to an rdf:about attribute with > a simple xslt), defining the Atom-core entry elements as simple RDF-like elements (no > mixed content), and allowing any #other# namespaced elements in . Hmm, XSLT can take the element content and put it into an rdf:about attribute, but I think the aim here would be to avoid needing XSLT if at all possible. It's not a typical use of a URI, but if was left as it is then it could be defined as an inverse functional property when used with RDF. > But: RDF is about metadata after all. The content part of the entry has nothing to do > with RDF. How would you make the separation? Data is data. The content is a representation of the resource, there's no reason that shouldn't be part of a Resource Description Framework model. I've not followed the content discussion fully recently, but I'm sure there will be a suitable datatype available in RDF. In passing I think it's worth noting that RDF/XML literals changed quite a bit after the original RSS 1.0 spec came out, and the usual approach to content there (as ) shares some of the problems associated with character escaping in RSS 2.0. If there ever is a revision of RSS 1.0 then it might well deprecate in favour of using RDF/XML's XMLLiterals with true XML content (e.g. XHTML). This could lead to an element ... Cheers, Danny. [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-syntax-grammar/#section-Syntax-XML-literals -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 13:43:32 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA28988 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 13:43:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9IYJax041519; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:34:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9IYJsw041518; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:34:19 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9IYIRx041504 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:34:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CRaos-0007ct-F6; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 18:34:18 +0000 Message-ID: <41910DAA.3020205@franklinmint.fm> Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 13:34:18 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Laurent Le Meur CC: "'Atom WG'" , atom-owl@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: RE : solving the extensibility problem References: <007101c4c687$143f16a0$67b4329e@afp.local> In-Reply-To: <007101c4c687$143f16a0$67b4329e@afp.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Laurent Le Meur wrote: > But: RDF is about metadata after all. The content part of the entry has nothing to do > with RDF. How would you make the separation? atom:content is looking like a restricted version of annotea:body[0] already. Robert Sayre [0] http://www.w3.org/2000/10/annotation-ns#annotates From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 13:56:44 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA00532 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 13:56:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9Inl7v046237; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:49:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9InlV0046236; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:49:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from minerva.ectoplasm.org ([66.34.202.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9Inkvk046219 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:49:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yining@ectoplasm.org) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (cm222.omega169.maxonline.com.sg [218.186.169.222]) by minerva.ectoplasm.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CED255EB1E; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:49:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41911136.6020205@ectoplasm.org> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 02:49:26 +0800 From: Zhang Yining User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Bray Cc: Atom WG Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am not against the hierarchical structure (anyway flat structure is hierarchical structure in a special form). However, the question is: How and how much would the server side synidcation service (e.g. bloglines, MyYahoo!) and the desktop aggregators add value with such hierarchy structure information in both feed and entry? Press further, how do they handle when the feed owner changes the hierarchy structure (by renaming/moving/inserting/removing part of the parth?) I strongly suggest that we come out a list of use cases and that would make the discussion and decision much easier. e.g. will the autodiscovery prompts user the available feeds of different categories, or allow user choose which categories to subscribe? Somehow I feel the tags used by flickr and delicious is good enough. Yining Tim Bray wrote: > > Somehow, we don't seem to have any category element in the > format-draft. Huh? It's in RSS2 and it's widely deployed, although > it hasn't been all that useful. Also I note that the protocol design > team is worrying about querying and defining categories. I don't see > anything wrong with RSS2's category element, so I've proposed > something along the same lines: > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceCategoryElement -Tim > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 14:33:45 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA04074 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 14:33:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9JMeSc054843; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:22:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9JMelf054842; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:22:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.205]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9JMemj054809 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:22:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so247240rns for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 11:22:38 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=C5NBOU0MRlBiWUd0gqD3C8pdgFzyPe/0DpNxj9B3q3eNNBizBxGAklk2CM/ZS5vdbucbu2171vkq/KQ2mNoAW2V+71sY6dAz6hTE5h+hYO1NssxMweS6q3lOgfIDJ3bXxABQgNF+NuzHRaQgS7nYmqVeFMevmDleUifwlt9q3+8= Received: by 10.38.179.47 with SMTP id b47mr353228rnf; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 11:22:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:22:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd041109112237fb3449@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:22:38 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: PaceCategoryRevised posted Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Very similar to PaceCategoryElement but reducing the lock on the hierarchical/slash scheme. I believe this should be usable with most categorization schemes. == Abstract == Add an atom:category element to both atom:head and atom:entry. It can appear multiple times. == Status == Open. == Rationale == Most blogging and other content management tools allow the user to categorize their posts. The atom:category element allows that information to be communicated in the feed. == Proposal == Add new sections 3.7, 4.2.13, and 5.13 to the atompub-format-03 draft. ==== 3.7 The Category Construct ==== The atom:category element contains information about a category to which an Atom feed or entry is associated. It has three attributes, "scheme", "term" and "label". The "scheme" attribute is a URI that identifies a categorization scheme. The "term" attribute will be a string which identifies the category within the categorization scheme to which the entry or feed belongs. The "label" attribute provides a human-readable label that may be displayed in end-user applications. Both the "scheme" and "label" are optional, but the "term" attribute is mandatory. ==== 4.2.13 The "atom:category" element ==== A Category Construct identifying a category to which the feed is associated. atom:head elements MAY contain any number of atom:category elements. ==== 5.13 The "atom:category" element ==== A Category Construct identifying a category to which the entry is associated. atom:entry elements MAY contain any number of atom:category elements. == Notes == Example: -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 14:55:43 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA05649 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 14:55:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9JmJwP061872; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:48:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9JmJCL061871; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:48:19 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9JmINQ061865 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:48:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9JmMNH015348 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:48:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6X0003RGCMY4@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:48:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.17] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6X00LCLGCLOZ@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:48:22 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 11:48:24 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted In-reply-to: <1f2ed5cd041109112237fb3449@mail.gmail.com> To: Danny Ayers Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Message-id: <511E7684-3288-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1f2ed5cd041109112237fb3449@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 9, 2004, at 11:22 AM, Danny Ayers wrote: > The atom:category element contains information about a category to > which an Atom feed or entry is associated. It has three attributes, > "scheme", "term" and "label". Rather than a "label" attribute, why not just use the content of ? That way you could decorate the human-readable version, e.g. with HTML markup. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 15:01:31 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA06175 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:01:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9JsuOm063192; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:54:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9JsupR063191; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:54:56 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40806.mail.yahoo.com (web40806.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.78.183]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA9JstwL063173 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:54:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 63674 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Nov 2004 19:54:55 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=rLchIk4Pk9gZC3PLid7GTzDzH1k1dRm1G7JLxifj851GxYN2KN5NmsPoh0s1b5UrM/CS0xSvKLrte0eI6ETGw2CRdoU4Lrtb6vzkTNsWUVka6lNvWiuOnnTbwvD1EQU5Sdg7y4OFfVsWGu0vr/9fkLn4Bs+DSX7yqL8Yc1LCito= ; Message-ID: <20041109195454.63672.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [131.107.71.92] by web40806.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 11:54:54 PST Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:54:54 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted To: Danny Ayers , atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd041109112237fb3449@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --- Danny Ayers wrote: > > The atom:category element contains information about > a category to > which an Atom feed or entry is associated. It has > three attributes, > "scheme", "term" and "label". The "scheme" attribute > is a URI that > identifies a categorization scheme. The "term" > attribute will be a > string which identifies the category within the > categorization scheme > to which the entry or feed belongs. The "label" > attribute provides a > human-readable label that may be displayed in > end-user applications. > Both the "scheme" and "label" are optional, but the > "term" attribute > is mandatory. I can't think of any reason why one would need both term and label. ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 15:01:42 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA06227 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:01:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9JtJJZ063250; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:55:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9JtJx3063249; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:55:19 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.195]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9JtJuw063243 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:55:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id c16so160287rne for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 11:55:13 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=Myi6aKKjOKDLIaLaV7V3c2jTa+x5EUJYEluimClH91hZjHr/6dgQ0McGoCdlkVPb5oCUnTiNnFwT8SGsA9Kl0gpQxz53nl0pCe84txYpVrHCm5QmKK4WEKNOlnMEY3b79UuVmakQdF4Gg9C3XmRriusDcMrayIN/SRrvxFk80KI= Received: by 10.38.161.76 with SMTP id j76mr574937rne; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 11:55:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.151.28 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:55:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3f1451f50411091155fe032dd@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 14:55:12 -0500 From: Joe Gregorio Reply-To: Joe Gregorio To: Danny Ayers Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd041109112237fb3449@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <1f2ed5cd041109112237fb3449@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I like this proposal from the perspective of the publishing protocol where I believe both 'term' and 'label' are important pieces of information that the user would want to manipulate. I would prefer the element name be switched to 'subject' because it's use closely matches that of the dc:subject element. I would also prefer 'term' not be an attribute but be the element content. -joe On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:22:38 +0100, Danny Ayers wrote: > > Very similar to PaceCategoryElement but reducing the lock on the > hierarchical/slash scheme. I believe this should be usable with most > categorization schemes. > > == Abstract == > > Add an atom:category element to both atom:head and atom:entry. It can > appear multiple times. > > == Status == > > Open. > > == Rationale == > > Most blogging and other content management tools allow the user to > categorize their posts. The atom:category element allows that > information to be communicated in the feed. > > == Proposal == > > Add new sections 3.7, 4.2.13, and 5.13 to the atompub-format-03 draft. > > ==== 3.7 The Category Construct ==== > > The atom:category element contains information about a category to > which an Atom feed or entry is associated. It has three attributes, > "scheme", "term" and "label". The "scheme" attribute is a URI that > identifies a categorization scheme. The "term" attribute will be a > string which identifies the category within the categorization scheme > to which the entry or feed belongs. The "label" attribute provides a > human-readable label that may be displayed in end-user applications. > Both the "scheme" and "label" are optional, but the "term" attribute > is mandatory. > > ==== 4.2.13 The "atom:category" element ==== > > A Category Construct identifying a category to which the feed is > associated. atom:head elements MAY contain > any number of atom:category elements. > > ==== 5.13 The "atom:category" element ==== > > A Category Construct identifying a category to which the entry is > associated. atom:entry elements MAY contain > any number of atom:category elements. > > == Notes == > > Example: > > > -- > > http://dannyayers.com > > -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 15:02:20 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA06374 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:02:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9JsiXZ063166; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:54:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9JsiL2063165; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:54:44 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from minerva.ectoplasm.org ([66.34.202.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9JshV4063159 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:54:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yining@ectoplasm.org) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (cm222.omega169.maxonline.com.sg [218.186.169.222]) by minerva.ectoplasm.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 791DE5EB1C; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:54:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41912077.80004@ectoplasm.org> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 03:54:31 +0800 From: Zhang Yining User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Danny Ayers Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted References: <1f2ed5cd041109112237fb3449@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd041109112237fb3449@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Danny, My comments inline: >== Abstract == > >Add an atom:category element to both atom:head and atom:entry. It can >appear multiple times. > > What would the semantic be if feed has category "programming/java" and one entry of it has category of "photography"? Or we leave the consistency to producer to manage? >==== 3.7 The Category Construct ==== > >The atom:category element contains information about a category to >which an Atom feed or entry is associated. It has three attributes, >"scheme", "term" and "label". The "scheme" attribute is a URI that >identifies a categorization scheme. The "term" attribute will be a >string which identifies the category within the categorization scheme >to which the entry or feed belongs. The "label" attribute provides a >human-readable label that may be displayed in end-user applications. >Both the "scheme" and "label" are optional, but the "term" attribute >is mandatory. > > > This term/label might solve the issue when the user changes the name(label) for a category, but the user has the extra burden to maintain the terms, labels and their mappings. >==== 5.13 The "atom:category" element ==== > >A Category Construct identifying a category to which the entry is >associated. atom:entry elements MAY contain >any number of atom:category elements. > > > Does the absence of category construct for entry imply the category of the entry defaults to that of the feed? I guess not. Need to clarify this bit. >== Notes == > >Example: > > > > Do we allow multiple category construct with the same (scheme, term) but different labels? In following example, the second label is the Chinese translation for "Animation". From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 15:09:20 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA07436 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:09:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9K28rs066020; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:02:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9K28l5066019; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:02:08 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9K27Fj065984 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:02:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id c16so161769rne for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:02:08 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=Mqnakxp8+RAFZlyFaFPHRU3g0IAaBL1Qdvmt9dqhUg7rLuT8uLnFjyTzHrcQssDDsMZQLsVr502s7UUfl0e4WXAluBymmKELVhop7Lyn9sx5WB9f/SQ1BUjEU1T1OEvPYh8vC1XcgumHN9MoCVze6jSTvB8JVbsGN3jqAfauDG8= Received: by 10.38.161.52 with SMTP id j52mr579806rne; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:02:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.151.28 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:02:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3f1451f5041109120238c62d5a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:02:07 -0500 From: Joe Gregorio Reply-To: Joe Gregorio To: Tim Bray Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted Cc: Danny Ayers , atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <511E7684-3288-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <1f2ed5cd041109112237fb3449@mail.gmail.com> <511E7684-3288-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 11:48:24 -0800, Tim Bray wrote: > > On Nov 9, 2004, at 11:22 AM, Danny Ayers wrote: > > > The atom:category element contains information about a category to > > which an Atom feed or entry is associated. It has three attributes, > > "scheme", "term" and "label". > > Rather than a "label" attribute, why not just use the content of > ? That way you could decorate the human-readable version, > e.g. with HTML markup. -Tim LOL. And I just suggested putting @term in the content. My reasoning goes like this, the @term is the *real* data, in the case of using an existing schema, this the key into that schema. The @label is just a human readable name that may have no meaning beyond that one site. For example I will point out Mark Pilgrim's category labels which include: # Those that have just broken a flower vase # Those that resemble flies from a distance # Those that tremble as if they were mad -joe -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 15:10:06 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA07570 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:10:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9K4Itx066846; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:04:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9K4ISm066845; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:04:18 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from minerva.ectoplasm.org ([66.34.202.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9K4Hgp066830 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:04:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yining@ectoplasm.org) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (cm222.omega169.maxonline.com.sg [218.186.169.222]) by minerva.ectoplasm.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 478AC5EB1E; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:04:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <419122B5.8080303@ectoplasm.org> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 04:04:05 +0800 From: Zhang Yining User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dare Obasanjo Cc: Danny Ayers , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted References: <20041109195454.63672.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041109195454.63672.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One case I can think of would be a blog hosting service wants to provide a common category catalog that its users can look up and apply to their blogs, and at the same time gives user the freedom to personalize the display name of the same category. Yining Dare Obasanjo wrote: >--- Danny Ayers wrote: > > >>The atom:category element contains information about >>a category to >>which an Atom feed or entry is associated. It has >>three attributes, >>"scheme", "term" and "label". The "scheme" attribute >>is a URI that >>identifies a categorization scheme. The "term" >>attribute will be a >>string which identifies the category within the >>categorization scheme >>to which the entry or feed belongs. The "label" >>attribute provides a >>human-readable label that may be displayed in >>end-user applications. >>Both the "scheme" and "label" are optional, but the >>"term" attribute >>is mandatory. >> >> > >I can't think of any reason why one would need both >term and label. > >===== >THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 >I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. >www.yahoo.com > > > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 15:15:40 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA08393 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:15:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9K9Jd2069291; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:09:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9K9J8A069290; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:09:19 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.200]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9K9IZq069248 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:09:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so250410rns for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:09:20 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=aH9Vlx7Fb+CPL1OVT68CyKhY5GFgN09Uy3incUdVRnFsMtyLVEh/sN3GLF4T9Ezu6bBOcHyvHQtzYBu3BzMDkm3779KUCVeo/Yl7PxsJkdIYc4mookggq55FGeNyFTT0hfAp4od3wxgpnafDlxsUGp03T+cxHMvFbdO2uBYdQcg= Received: by 10.38.179.47 with SMTP id b47mr373564rnf; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:09:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:09:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd041109120954fc850a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:09:20 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <20041109195454.63672.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <1f2ed5cd041109112237fb3449@mail.gmail.com> <20041109195454.63672.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I can't think of any reason why one would need both > term and label. scheme="http://dewey-decimal.org" term="398" label="Folklore" -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 15:20:48 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA08976 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:20:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9KEZJN072039; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:14:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9KEZbL072036; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:14:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.193]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9KEY1h072007 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:14:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 1so271597rny for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:14:38 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=pDO/NJlxIs23ngPu5QAXZEhidh1P98ZTgUNF6f6Nl0z/iC0Lh2iynHr4b82Z542PL3PXibpcabDKh1GEqKxUIPNxduccKgbo/I0QC1YY0BKzOI24D/zxwCinp5bbHornCUFwDXDZJtJF76cZHxpZS/nFMUrnKG6eyHZaW8/5hH4= Received: by 10.38.10.71 with SMTP id 71mr386864rnj; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:14:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:14:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04110912142041023@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:14:38 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Zhang Yining Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <41912077.80004@ectoplasm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 References: <1f2ed5cd041109112237fb3449@mail.gmail.com> <41912077.80004@ectoplasm.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iA9KEZ1h072018 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 03:54:31 +0800, Zhang Yining wrote: > What would the semantic be if feed has category "programming/java" and > one entry of it has category of "photography"? Or we leave the > consistency to producer to manage? That's tricky, but I'm not sure we can really say much without treading on individual schemes. Maybe just have a default assumption that in such a case the entry would be considered to be in both categories. > This term/label might solve the issue when the user changes the > name(label) for a category, but the user has the extra burden to > maintain the terms, labels and their mappings. Hopefully their software would look after that.I imagine that in many cases the term and label would be the same string. > Does the absence of category construct for entry imply the category of > the entry defaults to that of the feed? I guess not. Need to clarify > this bit. Good question. Suggestions? > Do we allow multiple category construct with the same (scheme, term) but > different labels? In following example, the second label is the Chinese > translation for "Animation". > > > label="Animation" /> > > Oo, again, tricky. Suggestions? I'm not entirely sure how best the label language should be dealt with either. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 15:24:16 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA09351 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:24:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9KHmqn073274; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:17:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9KHmws073273; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:17:48 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.192]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9KHlL8073267 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:17:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so250943rns for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:17:51 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=itHlNRbeTuvS0G7oaENFMixKSnu1SSgdQrTLVRz1nLQ5hY3N6qm7ZJlELDnTKttBex6oVNuaEe+Vlp8E4awzlpROv8l9Tt2y5JyfbqkTjkEWZ0DUxvLZ8Ta04DSqdCioaCkV4lN0Ga8QKa6XY8uZJTT/J+nR0Yo3agdGFXYAGmo= Received: by 10.38.179.47 with SMTP id b47mr377142rnf; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:17:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:17:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd041109121757d2b7ca@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:17:51 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Joe Gregorio Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted Cc: Tim Bray , atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <3f1451f5041109120238c62d5a@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <1f2ed5cd041109112237fb3449@mail.gmail.com> <511E7684-3288-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <3f1451f5041109120238c62d5a@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:02:07 -0500, Joe Gregorio wrote: > On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 11:48:24 -0800, Tim Bray wrote: > > Rather than a "label" attribute, why not just use the content of > > ? That way you could decorate the human-readable version, > > e.g. with HTML markup. -Tim > > LOL. And I just suggested putting @term in the content. Heh. > My reasoning goes like this, the @term is the *real* data, in the > case of using an existing schema, this the key into that schema. > The @label is just a human readable name that may have no > meaning beyond that one site. For example I will point out > Mark Pilgrim's category labels which include: > > # Those that have just broken a flower vase > # Those that resemble flies from a distance > # Those that tremble as if they were mad I honestly don't know - there's certainly merit on both sides. I went for all-attributes because that seemed easiest in RDF/XML (*ducks for cover*)... Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 15:24:18 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA09369 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:24:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9KJXqL073952; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:19:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9KJXW4073951; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:19:33 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.200]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9KJWxq073939 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:19:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so251034rns for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:19:33 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=PMN5rWcSF1mkHfRXGm8UBNLjhEMk3cZezE5lY2K6ej/yi9fmotgNWFx8sF286ehrWnnR1Z+S65iiiNK7VcfdIu7z4/7BKIKyQCfXe2rWFE2M4+7y48FHx0iPoq22BdAUITti7QmEuDlPXZXzO3jo0QUeKcXJKiwILn+Yl28cnII= Received: by 10.38.8.19 with SMTP id 19mr389616rnh; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:19:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:19:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0411091219330e363d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:19:33 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Joe Gregorio Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <3f1451f50411091155fe032dd@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <1f2ed5cd041109112237fb3449@mail.gmail.com> <3f1451f50411091155fe032dd@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 14:55:12 -0500, Joe Gregorio wrote: > I would prefer the element name be switched to > 'subject' because it's use closely matches that of the > dc:subject element. I'd have no objections to that. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 15:29:09 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA09850 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:29:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9KMgck074768; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:22:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9KMg9Z074767; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:22:42 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9KMfSs074754 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:22:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so251199rns for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:22:45 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=APx8QSbd9W3ebPeGVG7UCNW3YJKaKdH/JFVzq6huYAlF1y/P5A/ql5QcVt9QvKXkdMjGuXSDGIJxjLnyV/F21MRg9zGsfnhS3Y6icEKoocWmzsxZKnbuPHtfVmmnQwG3aseLf2GJrSP22P9J6sTarKcXpjkvdSQXQ6BysozRoKk= Received: by 10.38.179.47 with SMTP id b47mr379579rnf; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:22:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:22:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd041109122248323687@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:22:45 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Zhang Yining Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement Cc: Tim Bray , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <41911136.6020205@ectoplasm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <41911136.6020205@ectoplasm.org> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 02:49:26 +0800, Zhang Yining wrote: > > I am not against the hierarchical structure (anyway flat structure is > hierarchical structure in a special form). However, the question is: How > and how much would the server side synidcation service (e.g. bloglines, > MyYahoo!) and the desktop aggregators add value with such hierarchy > structure information in both feed and entry? I would say very little at present. > Press further, how do they handle when the feed owner changes the > hierarchy structure (by renaming/moving/inserting/removing part of the > parth?) I think in the context of Atom you'd have to leave that to the applications at the end of the line. I imagine it should be possible to use Atom Protocol to maintain and synchronise such structures. > I strongly suggest that we come out a list of use cases and that would > make the discussion and decision much easier. I would put forward: server-side categorization as provided by blogging tools, where the user either adds arbitrary tags or builds a tree of labels; bibliographic style categorization, where the entries are associated with standard categorizations. > e.g. will the autodiscovery prompts user the available feeds of > different categories, or allow user choose which categories to subscribe? That sounds feasible, though probably quite tricky. > Somehow I feel the tags used by flickr and delicious is good enough. I believe PaceCategoryRevised will allow simple tagging : possibly more personal: as well as more a more standardised approach: a bit richer: Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 15:42:46 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA10896 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:42:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9KZT3c080118; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:35:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9KZTQb080117; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:35:29 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9KZSNF080092 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:35:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9KZWui023445 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 13:35:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6X003BHIJ7EL@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 13:35:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.17] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6X00LSAIJ6OZ@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 13:35:31 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:35:33 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Revised PaceFieldingLinks To: Atom WG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iA9KZSNF080095 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Removed superfluous "MUST be a string" language per Martin Dürst. Dropped the use of xml:base to force the base URI for rel= per suggestion from Roundy, Dürst, et al. Revised the abstract per Ayers. http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceFieldingLinks -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 15:46:04 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA11162 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:46:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9KeNbv082349; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:40:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9KeNeN082348; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:40:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9KeMae082308 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:40:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <20041109204020015007rvqqe>; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:40:21 +0000 Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 13:40:19 -0700 Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <41912077.80004@ectoplasm.org> Message-Id: <91CAD18C-328F-11D9-A07E-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iA9KeNae082343 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tuesday, November 9, 2004, at 12:54 PM, Zhang Yining wrote: >> ==== 5.13 The "atom:category" element ==== >> >> A Category Construct identifying a category to which the entry is >> associated. atom:entry elements MAY contain >> any number of atom:category elements. >> >> > Does the absence of category construct for entry imply the category of > the entry defaults to that of the feed? I guess not. Need to clarify > this bit. My first reaction is that entry/category would need to override feed/category to avoid weirdness when an off-topic entry gets posted. If there's an entry/category, override, otherwise inherit. That could lead to duplication though, if, for example, the feed/category was "programming" and the entry wanted to be about both "programming" and "linux". Perhaps that would be the uglier situation (more common?). So maybe inherit always, and entry/category adds to the category list. Hmm. >> == Notes == >> >> Example: >> > label="Animation" /> >> > Do we allow multiple category construct with the same (scheme, term) > but different labels? In following example, the second label is the > Chinese translation for "Animation". > > > label="Animation" /> > > > If is a Text Construct (with a few additional attributes), xml:lang would serve well: Animation <blink>Animation </blink> 劚 画 (NOTE: xml:lang omitted from the first two, assuming that's the default language for the feed). Otherwise, we might go with this: ...which is shorter when you want multiple labels, but longer otherwise. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 15:50:13 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA11575 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:50:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9KfwD2082917; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:41:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9KfwW9082916; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:41:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from minerva.ectoplasm.org ([66.34.202.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9Kfvbh082909 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:41:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yining@ectoplasm.org) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (cm222.omega169.maxonline.com.sg [218.186.169.222]) by minerva.ectoplasm.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD3E85EB1E; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:42:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41912B89.40405@ectoplasm.org> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 04:41:45 +0800 From: Zhang Yining User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Danny Ayers Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted References: <1f2ed5cd041109112237fb3449@mail.gmail.com> <41912077.80004@ectoplasm.org> <1f2ed5cd04110912142041023@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd04110912142041023@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>What would the semantic be if feed has category "programming/java" and >>one entry of it has category of "photography"? Or we leave the >>consistency to producer to manage? >> >> > >That's tricky, but I'm not sure we can really say much without >treading on individual schemes. Maybe just have a default assumption >that in such a case the entry would be considered to be in both >categories. > > > How about doing away with feed level category info. Subscribing to/Syndicating a feed of certain category(ies) means to all entries that are of any of those categories; This gives the consumer the flexibility in subscribing any combination of categories of one's blog entries. >>Does the absence of category construct for entry imply the category of >>the entry defaults to that of the feed? I guess not. Need to clarify >>this bit. >> >> > >Good question. Suggestions? > > > Again, only entry level category information stays. Cheers, Yining From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 16:01:14 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA12327 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 16:01:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9KsHip086325; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:54:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9KsHLJ086324; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:54:17 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9KsHP5086291 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:54:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <20041109205416015007qhdhe>; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:54:16 +0000 Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 13:54:16 -0700 Subject: Re: Revised PaceFieldingLinks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <84E3AE35-3291-11D9-A07E-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iA9KsHP5086319 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tuesday, November 9, 2004, at 01:35 PM, Tim Bray wrote: > > Removed superfluous "MUST be a string" language per Martin Dürst. > > Dropped the use of xml:base to force the base URI for rel= per > suggestion from Roundy, Dürst, et al. > > Revised the abstract per Ayers. > > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceFieldingLinks > If we can accept the Pace and then argue whether to add more values to the initial list, then this looks like a good step forward. As difficult as the link discussion has been, any step forward may be worth taking, even if it's small. One addition that might be helpful in avoiding misunderstandings: After "the base URI...", clarify with an additional sentence along the lines of "Unregistered values MUST be Absolute URIs, and MUST NOT point to any location beneath 'http://www.iana.org/assignments/TBD/'." Obvious? Perhaps. But a careless or uninformed reading (someone who doesn't realize that the base URI is only applied to non-absolute URIs) could miss the fact that one can use unregistered values. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 16:06:14 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA12695 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 16:06:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9KxEHn087775; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:59:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9KxE4B087774; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:59:14 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from minerva.ectoplasm.org ([66.34.202.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9KxEjc087768 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:59:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yining@ectoplasm.org) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (cm222.omega169.maxonline.com.sg [218.186.169.222]) by minerva.ectoplasm.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59AF95EB1E; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:59:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41912F96.3090209@ectoplasm.org> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 04:59:02 +0800 From: Zhang Yining User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Antone Roundy Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted References: <91CAD18C-328F-11D9-A07E-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> In-Reply-To: <91CAD18C-328F-11D9-A07E-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Antone Roundy wrote: > > On Tuesday, November 9, 2004, at 12:54 PM, Zhang Yining wrote: > >>> ==== 5.13 The "atom:category" element ==== >>> >>> A Category Construct identifying a category to which the entry is >>> associated. atom:entry elements MAY contain >>> any number of atom:category elements. >>> >>> >> Does the absence of category construct for entry imply the category >> of the entry defaults to that of the feed? I guess not. Need to >> clarify this bit. > > > My first reaction is that entry/category would need to override > feed/category to avoid weirdness when an off-topic entry gets posted. > If there's an entry/category, override, otherwise inherit. That could > lead to duplication though, if, for example, the feed/category was > "programming" and the entry wanted to be about both "programming" and > "linux". Perhaps that would be the uglier situation (more common?). So > maybe inherit always, and entry/category adds to the category list. Hmm. > Indeed, overriding does not work, say I have categories of "Java" and "Gadgets", and another "Geek" which is conceptualy at the higher level than the first two. It's very reasonable to have a "Geek" feed that contains all entries of "Java" and "Gadgets" and even entries of just "Tech". For inheritance, what if I would like to subcribe a feed of two categories, "Perl" and "XML", and one entry of category "C#" and "XML", which feed category does this entry inherit from? And I guess we can't really call that inheritance ;-) Cheers, Yining From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 17:50:18 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA23902 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:50:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9Mbsxu024145; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 14:37:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9MbsSL024144; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 14:37:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk ([161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9MbrUT023859 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 14:37:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA9MWdAY012214; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 22:32:48 GMT In-Reply-To: <84E3AE35-3291-11D9-A07E-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> References: <84E3AE35-3291-11D9-A07E-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-6--674207111; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <4416A980-329F-11D9-BAE2-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Graham Subject: Re: Revised PaceFieldingLinks Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 22:32:40 +0000 To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-6--674207111 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Proposals for a new XML namespace mechanism should be directed to an XML WG, surely? If we must put up with this nonsense, I need to ask, is rel="http://www.iana.org/assignments/TBD/related" a valid value? What about "../TBD/related"? I don't see the benefit of mapping them onto a default namespace, so if those 2 are valid then doing a mapping the relative URI onto a base and doing URI comparison is a waste of cycles. Why not do what we do with content type and have the values be names on their own? And why are we using capital letters for idiots for that and not for this? Please reconcile the two. 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Tue, 9 Nov 2004 18:17:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9N9quV038066; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:09:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9N9q8Y038065; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:09:52 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9N9pUv038022 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:09:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CRf7U-0005GF-De; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 23:09:48 +0000 Message-ID: <41914E3D.4030703@franklinmint.fm> Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 18:09:49 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Bray CC: Graham , Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <240C2560-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <4471C014-31D4-11D9-ADD6-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <41901A1B.2030707@franklinmint.fm> <938AB426-3267-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <938AB426-3267-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > On Nov 8, 2004, at 5:15 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: > >> Abstract >> ---------------------------------------- >> Recast atom:head as an entry. > > > Rob, could you please publish an example of what a feed would look > like? The number of changes overflows my input buffer. > There really aren't very many changes. Just removes all the stuff that says "feed" instead of "entry" and makes four changes. I added an example on the wiki: http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown > I'm having trouble understanding the angst. The latest format draft has > two different elements (feed and entry) which are quite different > things The latest format draft defines two document types, feeds and entries. With this change, it still does. The difference is that data about the feed is stored in an entry instead of a head element. > but share a number of common child elements. So why is this a > problem? There's no way to identify data about the feed itself, which is usually an output resource (generated in some way). Using this approach, it becomes straightforward to address the Feed's attributes using the protocol. It makes no difference to a feed consumer (change the element name, so what?), though it does add a handy way to do on-demand comments and such, as shown in the second example. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 18:23:55 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA27034 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 18:23:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9NFmRf041363; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:15:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9NFmLv041361; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:15:48 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.203]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9NFlwT041332 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:15:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so261060rns for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 15:15:49 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=A49qeTpWfH0AKbCFTkOJFCIoZV23vzJGL+aJQaReLs4y9/spmfebDDK3C00X7yOwP3o1vSHzBgQ1vM/zTWkGtZlgIz0ve815SEGChdY4atnDuVs0GzbFTmYaHdk4kkaKrIKOgC0wwhEDYSTyeWPdrMcEz1gG3PT42LX66LLGfQw= Received: by 10.38.8.19 with SMTP id 19mr467657rnh; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 15:15:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:15:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd041109151545e0968d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 00:15:49 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Revised PaceFieldingLinks Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Looks plenty good enough for the editors. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 18:55:48 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA00339 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 18:55:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9Nh3Oh053830; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:43:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9Nh3wH053829; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:43:03 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9Nh2uY053820 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:43:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9Nh7NH026276 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 16:43:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6X00LJ3R7VL2@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 16:43:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.17] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6X006ZER7UJ3@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 16:43:07 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 15:43:08 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown In-reply-to: <41914E3D.4030703@franklinmint.fm> To: mint@franklinmint.fm Cc: Graham , Atom WG Message-id: <1C43EADA-32A9-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <240C2560-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <4471C014-31D4-11D9-ADD6-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <41901A1B.2030707@franklinmint.fm> <938AB426-3267-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <41914E3D.4030703@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 9, 2004, at 3:09 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: > There really aren't very many changes. Just removes all the stuff that > says "feed" instead of "entry" and makes four changes. A change this big, this late in the process, makes me nervous. There are other ways to shorten the spec (we were discussing some today). What makes me nervous is we're asserting that a and an are the same, except that has to have a generator... it smells like, when I'm building some software, and I catch myself thinking "gee, this thing and that thing are almost the same thing" and I try to unify them and find extra arguments and variables creeping into methods to make up for the fact that they're not *quite* the same. It seems to me that and are two different bundles of metadata, in which a lot of the same elements can appear. But if the WG is massively in favor of the change, I'm OK with it. Finally, is a bogus element name. Either it's a or it's an . -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 19:01:27 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA00761 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:01:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA9NsBRk059733; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:54:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iA9NsBf4059727; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:54:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (imap.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iA9Ns9wx059683 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:54:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from derhoermi@gmx.net) Received: (qmail 12291 invoked by uid 65534); 9 Nov 2004 23:54:09 -0000 Received: from dsl-213-023-052-030.arcor-ip.net (EHLO voyager) (213.23.52.30) by mail.gmx.net (mp012) with SMTP; 10 Nov 2004 00:54:09 +0100 X-Authenticated: #723575 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann To: Tim Bray Cc: Atom WG Subject: Re: Revised PaceFieldingLinks Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 00:54:02 +0100 Message-ID: <41a05741.1335289775@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit * Tim Bray wrote: >Removed superfluous "MUST be a string" language per Martin Dürst. > >Dropped the use of xml:base to force the base URI for rel= per >suggestion from Roundy, Dürst, et al. > >Revised the abstract per Ayers. > > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceFieldingLinks This base URI stuff makes no sense to me and I am opposed to requirements such as Link constructs MAY have a type attribute, whose value MUST be a registered media type [RFC2045]. As that would require implementations to be updated every other day in order to tell whether the document is (not) conforming. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 19:24:30 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA02182 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:24:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA0F9gI068906; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 16:15:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAA0F9cj068905; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 16:15:09 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA0F9d5068897 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 16:15:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CRg8m-0000Ft-CE; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 00:15:12 +0000 Message-ID: <41915D8E.3000208@franklinmint.fm> Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 19:15:10 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Bray CC: Graham , Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <240C2560-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <4471C014-31D4-11D9-ADD6-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <41901A1B.2030707@franklinmint.fm> <938AB426-3267-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <41914E3D.4030703@franklinmint.fm> <1C43EADA-32A9-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <1C43EADA-32A9-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > > On Nov 9, 2004, at 3:09 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: > >> There really aren't very many changes. Just removes all the stuff that >> says "feed" instead of "entry" and makes four changes. > > > A change this big, this late in the process, makes me nervous. Let's see. The atom:head element appeared rather recently, and the format isn't supposed to go to Last Call until March, 2005. > There > are other ways to shorten the spec (we were discussing some today). > What makes me nervous is we're asserting that a and an > are the same, except that has to have a generator... > it smells > like, when I'm building some software, and I catch myself thinking "gee, > this thing and that thing are almost the same thing" and I try to unify > them and find extra arguments and variables creeping into methods to > make up for the fact that they're not *quite* the same. It seems to me > that and are two different bundles of metadata, in which > a lot of the same elements can appear. Well, I see your point, except that the protocol currently requires a generator element to appear in an Entry Document (not reflected in the format spec), so maybe the elements in the feed are the exception. [0] > Finally, is a bogus element name. Either it's a or > it's an . It's a , then. Robert Sayre [0] http://bitworking.org/projects/atom/draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-02.html#rfc.section.3.6.11 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 19:25:04 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA02273 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:25:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA0FCAv068932; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 16:15:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAA0FCcH068931; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 16:15:12 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr4.netsolmail.com (omr4.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA0FBjR068903 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 16:15:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr4.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAA0FDoq013902; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:15:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from boblaptop (68-174-167-137.nyc.rr.com [68.174.167.137]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BYA41680; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:15:12 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411100015.BYA41680@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Tim Bray'" Cc: "'Atom WG'" Subject: RE: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:15:09 -0500 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <597730A8-31E1-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> thread-index: AcTF7/rffCJPiv/uS6ikal/8gP+6ZQAx+ZrQ Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: >3. You get help for aggregate feeds using atom:origin I have explained on numerous occasions[1] why atom:origin is useless in the context of aggregate feeds. As far as I can see, atom:origin was "slipped" into the spec with very little review and the alternatives to it were never seriously and openly discussed. To do anything useful in the aggregate feed cases, we need to support PaceHeadInEntry which is basically the same proposal I've been making ever since the spring and that was discussed at the Atom Community meeting at Sun... Before you cut off debate on Atom, you should at least provide an opportunity of review for the issues that have been lying ignored on the table. bob wyman [1] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11090.html From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 19:55:32 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA04454 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:55:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA0jBsU081846; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 16:45:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAA0jBsT081845; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 16:45:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr1.netsolmail.com (omr1.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.162]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA0jAMu081827 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 16:45:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr1.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAA0jEq5012741; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:45:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from boblaptop (68-174-167-137.nyc.rr.com [68.174.167.137]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BYA48061; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:45:13 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411100045.BYA48061@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Dare Obasanjo'" , "'Tim Bray'" Cc: "'Atom WG'" Subject: atom:origin IS NOT LIKE RSS V2.0's element!!! Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:45:11 -0500 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <20041109021119.54217.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> thread-index: AcTGBHIeVXK6DX+aQUO8zPyOlkhP0gAtk2og Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dare Obasanjo wrote: >Tim Bray wrote: >> 3. You get help for aggregate feeds using atom:origin > Sounds like the element in RSS 2.0 No. The two are in no way similar. atom:origin has no relationship to , at least as is defined in the RSS V2.0 specification. Atom:origin can only be used to "identify" a source while an RSS V2.0 can be used to locate a source. These are very different. atom:origin is a character-by-character copy of an atom:id which is a URI that can't be reliably dereferenced. An atom:origin might look like: tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-555 RSS's element[1] provides a copy of the title of the source feed and has a required attribute which is the URL of the source. (i.e. a URI which can be dereferenced.) An RSS might look like: Tomalak's Realm As I've explained before, atom:origin is largely useless in aggregated feeds.[2] On the other hand, RSS's element is useful since it communicates the most important information that an aggregator needs to know about an entry's source feed when it displays that entry. The PaceHeadInEntry defines a mechanism which should be combined with an atom:source, similar to that defined by RSS V2.0, in order to properly support the embedding of entries in aggregated feeds. bob wyman [1] http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss#ltsourcegtSubelementOfLtitemgt [2] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11090.html From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 19:56:11 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA04581 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:56:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA0nscx083595; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 16:49:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAA0nsqD083594; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 16:49:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA0nrn6083587 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 16:49:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CRggO-00021e-K1; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 00:49:56 +0000 Message-ID: <419165B2.7060806@franklinmint.fm> Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 19:49:54 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham CC: Tim Bray , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Revised PaceFieldingLinks References: <84E3AE35-3291-11D9-A07E-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <4416A980-329F-11D9-BAE2-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <4416A980-329F-11D9-BAE2-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Graham wrote: > Proposals for a new XML namespace mechanism should be directed to an XML > WG, surely? You seem to think XML Namespaces have properties they don't possess. Besides, we're talking about attribute values. > If we must put up with this nonsense, I need to ask, is > rel="http://www.iana.org/assignments/TBD/related" a valid value? What > about "../TBD/related"? I would use your friendly neighborhood library, examples below. > I don't see the benefit of mapping them onto a > default namespace, so if those 2 are valid then doing a mapping the > relative URI onto a base and doing URI comparison is a waste of cycles. I don't see why you would make a big stink about this. Pretty much everyone else has said this is a reasonable compromise, and the code for Shrook would be totally trivial. --------------------------------- #import int main (int argc, const char * argv[]) { NSAutoreleasePool * pool = [[NSAutoreleasePool alloc] init]; NSURL * baseURL = [NSURL URLWithString:@"http://www.iana.org/assignments/TBD/"]; NSLog([[NSURL URLWithString:@"alternate" relativeToURL:baseURL] absoluteString]); NSLog([[NSURL URLWithString:@"http://www.iana.org/assignments/TBD/related" relativeToURL:baseURL] absoluteString]); NSLog([[NSURL URLWithString:@"../TBD/alternate" relativeToURL:baseURL] absoluteString]); NSLog([[NSURL URLWithString:@"http://franklinmint.fm/foo" relativeToURL:baseURL] absoluteString]); NSLog([[NSURL URLWithString:@"../../assignments/TBD/alternate" relativeToURL:baseURL] absoluteString]); NSLog([[NSURL URLWithString:@"vemmi://franklinmint.fm/foo" relativeToURL:baseURL] absoluteString]); NSLog([[NSURL URLWithString:@".././.././assignments/TBD/alternate" relativeToURL:baseURL] absoluteString]); [pool release]; return 0; } --------------------------------- Output: [Session started at 2004-11-09 19:35:40 -0500.] ... 19:35:41.050 ... http://www.iana.org/assignments/TBD/alternate ... 19:35:41.051 ... http://www.iana.org/assignments/TBD/related ... 19:35:41.051 ... http://www.iana.org/assignments/TBD/alternate ... 19:35:41.052 ... http://franklinmint.fm/foo ... 19:35:41.052 ... http://www.iana.org/assignments/TBD/alternate ... 19:35:41.052 ... vemmi://franklinmint.fm/foo ... 19:35:41.052 ... http://www.iana.org/assignments/TBD/alternate Executable “PaceFieldingLinks” has exited with status 0. ---------------------------------- If there's a bottleneck here, it's probably NSLog(). Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 20:13:09 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA06381 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:13:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA17Iak092704; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:07:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAA17Iog092703; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:07:18 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr4.netsolmail.com (omr4.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA17H9t092681 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:07:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@ms8.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.180] (may be forged)) by omr4.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAA17Loq002363; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:07:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from boblaptop (68-174-167-137.nyc.rr.com [68.174.167.137]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BYA52809; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:07:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411100107.BYA52809@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Robert Sayre'" , "'Tim Bray'" Cc: "'Graham'" , "'Atom WG'" Subject: RE: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:07:17 -0500 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <41915D8E.3000208@franklinmint.fm> thread-index: AcTGvGCYUACZZfp8QzqZ6RxOedjIuQABOp2Q Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Sayre wrote: > Tim Bray wrote: ... >> Either it's a or it's an . > It's a , then. If is an entry, can an entry contain an entry? We really need PaceHeadInEntry to make aggregated feeds work. bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 20:18:06 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA06663 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:18:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA1BarK094066; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:11:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAA1BamR094065; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:11:36 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA1BZeT093995 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:11:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iAA19wgF020942; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 01:09:59 GMT In-Reply-To: <419165B2.7060806@franklinmint.fm> References: <84E3AE35-3291-11D9-A07E-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <4416A980-329F-11D9-BAE2-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <419165B2.7060806@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-1--664770359; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <3CD4BAA2-32B5-11D9-BD8D-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Cc: Tim Bray , atom-syntax@imc.org From: Graham Subject: Re: Revised PaceFieldingLinks Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 01:09:57 +0000 To: Robert Sayre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-1--664770359 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10 Nov 2004, at 12:49 am, Robert Sayre wrote: > I don't see why you would make a big stink about this. Pretty much > everyone else has said this is a reasonable compromise, and the code > for Shrook would be totally trivial. Yes, it's reasonable. That still doesn't mean I think it makes sense. There's very little XML you can come with that wouldn't be trivial for me to implement. That doesn't make it a good idea. One of the goals of Atom is that it be cleanly specified, which to me makes internal consistency between elements a worhty goal. Graham --Apple-Mail-1--664770359 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMTEwMDEwOTU3WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQU3CfW0SEfxkSfvp9Fuikw/+nf GC8weAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEAxWF05tuWolthVO2yPpaMFTKd 1EZ2vokCT1PFJtE00pvU7Ng4tsWh4BEYW8/vGp0dQBo3/qyRLvnuhxO5nSr0oL7+1DbqC8lTRyiU edgxIAyFJUmDTCGCmvQcDi5Z1S+O+MB8bOAHyHwxqqqtZ3CS8Zq2GeZah5oeQvfo6USTsZ6XSuPG y83Th/EIaRjh7ia7jTmiM31qqRnxWXOnz5BkLN//7scDOjITrtXTRtgisHHC4xpm0prvxxzWZ17H WpqGpAxsiSaSMqtwZbKB6v5DjbGPO3TMkhG9c28Tfv5caEAspTpu72WkgqAyIz81lQsNSom4Kq4x B5mNWA2MfSjiUQAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-1--664770359-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 20:20:29 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA06901 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:20:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA1EsHX095104; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:14:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAA1EssH095103; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:14:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA1Erde094928 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:14:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004111001143501100ga9are>; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 01:14:35 +0000 Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 18:14:35 -0700 Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <41914E3D.4030703@franklinmint.fm> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am really not getting this. On Tuesday, November 9, 2004, at 04:09 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: > There's no way to identify data about the feed itself Huh? Isn't the stuff in atom:head data about the feed? > which is usually an output resource (generated in some way). ...? [snip] > though it does add a handy way to do on-demand comments and such, as > shown in the second example. Let me see if I'm understand this correctly: The first example shows a "normal feed". The 's is the URI to post comments on that entry to. The second example is the feed created when someone posts a comment to that URI. Okay, I finally get that much (I think the explanation could be more clear--I may post a suggestion later). Question: what is the URI from which one is to fetch the comment feed? How does one find that? On Tuesday, November 9, 2004, at 04:43 PM, Tim Bray wrote: > What makes me nervous is we're asserting that a and an > are the same, except that has to have a generator... it smells > like, when I'm building some software, and I catch myself thinking > "gee, this thing and that thing are almost the same thing" and I try > to unify them and find extra arguments and variables creeping into > methods to make up for the fact that they're not *quite* the same. It > seems to me that and are two different bundles of > metadata, in which a lot of the same elements can appear. Yeah, that's my take on it too. I don't see enough benefit coming out of this to justify the change. Separating things in the spec, even if it results in duplication, seems more clear. If only an element or two was different, that would be one thing, but it seems to me that the differences run much deeper. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 20:31:01 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA07943 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:31:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA1Iob3097077; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:18:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAA1IoJD097076; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:18:50 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA1Iohr097070 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:18:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CRh8P-0003hC-BV; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 01:18:53 +0000 Message-ID: <41916C7B.1020608@franklinmint.fm> Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 20:18:51 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham CC: Tim Bray , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Revised PaceFieldingLinks References: <84E3AE35-3291-11D9-A07E-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <4416A980-329F-11D9-BAE2-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <419165B2.7060806@franklinmint.fm> <3CD4BAA2-32B5-11D9-BD8D-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <3CD4BAA2-32B5-11D9-BD8D-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > > Yes, it's reasonable. That still doesn't mean I think it makes sense. > There's very little XML you can come with that wouldn't be trivial for > me to implement. That doesn't make it a good idea. One of the goals of > Atom is that it be cleanly specified, which to me makes internal > consistency between elements a worhty goal. The @rel of must be consistent with the @type of ? Sounds like a false goal. You can call the same built-in library function for every @rel you will ever encounter. Seems clean to me. For the problem with , blame MIME. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 20:31:27 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA08045 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:31:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA1NAZL099067; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:23:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAA1NAct099066; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:23:10 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA1N9wJ099053 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:23:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA1NFui025191 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 18:23:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6X000DHVUQY4@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 18:23:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.17] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6X00JTRVUPGS@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 18:23:14 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 17:23:16 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown In-reply-to: <200411100107.BYA52809@ms8.netsolmail.com> To: bob@wyman.us Cc: "'Robert Sayre'" , "'Atom WG'" , "'Graham'" Message-id: <193E34B8-32B7-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <200411100107.BYA52809@ms8.netsolmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 9, 2004, at 5:07 PM, Bob Wyman wrote: > If is an entry, can an entry contain an entry? We really > need PaceHeadInEntry to make aggregated feeds work. Why can't an contain a that's also sorta-kinda an entry? As long as we agree that a can't contain a or an , there's no confusion. Assuming of course that the WG wants to agree on HeadInEntry; I don't know enough about aggregators to have a useful opinion pro or contra. Bob, if we take HeadInEntry, should we lose atom:origin? -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 20:33:13 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA08278 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:33:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA1PadX000716; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:25:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAA1PaQV000715; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:25:36 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA1PZtw000653 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:25:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iAA1JRJx022648; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 01:19:27 GMT In-Reply-To: <1C43EADA-32A9-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <240C2560-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <4471C014-31D4-11D9-ADD6-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <41901A1B.2030707@franklinmint.fm> <938AB426-3267-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <41914E3D.4030703@franklinmint.fm> <1C43EADA-32A9-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-2--664200652; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <90671CC4-32B6-11D9-BD8D-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Cc: mint@franklinmint.fm, Atom WG From: Graham Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 01:19:26 +0000 To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-2--664200652 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9 Nov 2004, at 11:43 pm, Tim Bray wrote: > It seems to me that and are two different bundles of > metadata, in which a lot of the same elements can appear. Yes. The thing they have in common is that they are both Atom container elements. Other than that they're completely different. An atom:entry can inherit values (Author etc) from atom:head. I don't think one thing can inherit values from another thing that is conceptually its sibling. 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Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:46:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA1bSl6005522; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:37:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAA1bSf9005521; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:37:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA1bRg4005467 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:37:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iAA1agQG025607; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 01:36:42 GMT In-Reply-To: <193E34B8-32B7-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> References: <200411100107.BYA52809@ms8.netsolmail.com> <193E34B8-32B7-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-3--663165231; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: Cc: bob@wyman.us, "'Atom WG'" From: Graham Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 01:36:41 +0000 To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-3--663165231 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10 Nov 2004, at 1:23 am, Tim Bray wrote: > I don't know enough about aggregators to have a useful opinion pro or > contra. The Pace makes no mention of how the data inside the head-in-entries is to be processed, which says to be it hasn't been thought through. I presume it would supercede the feed's main atom:head, in which case the head-in-entry should really be the first element, for the same reason the main atom:head is first. 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Fielding" Subject: Re: Revised PaceFieldingLinks Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:45:05 -0800 To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on eu-mail/Day(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at 11/10/2004 02:45:06 AM, Serialize by Router on eu-mail/Day(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at 11/10/2004 02:45:08 AM, Serialize complete at 11/10/2004 02:45:08 AM Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Nov 9, 2004, at 12:35 PM, Tim Bray wrote: > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceFieldingLinks I think it would be better if my name wasn't in the page title. I could come up with a dozen or so different ways of providing extensible links in XML -- this one was just the simplest way of making an attribute value extensible. I would not call any of them the "Fielding" way. It would be simpler to modify the proposal to just say that the attribute is either a URI or a token, where the token is equivalent to the URI obtained from appending the token to "http://www.iana.org/assignments/relations/". In fact, I'll do that right now. Another alternative would be to remove the generic link construct and simply use namespaces for all of the metadata. Either XLink or RDF could be used to indicate when an attribute value is a URI reference (and thus a link). Note, however, that neither RDF nor XLink are simple, nor are they proven solutions for extensibility by any reasonable measure -- they are simply a means of associating crosscutting behavior (similar to aspect-oriented programming) as an attempt to recover a centralized meaning from namespaces' decentralized collision avoidance strategy. None of that discussion will help the WG reach rough consensus, however. There are even valid arguments for not allowing any sort of extensibility beyond that of ignore-unknown-elements. Tim, you might want to consider taking all of the link and metadata proposals and organizing them as a ladder, with levels of extensibility being the rungs. Then get each person to indicate how far up they are willing to climb. I'd do that myself, but I still haven't figured out why I subscribed to the list in the first place, aside from the pure entertainment value of watching a group of professional and semi-professional writers try to reach consensus on a design, and might disappear if I come to my senses. ....Roy From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 21:11:35 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA11181 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:11:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA259nP017248; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 18:05:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAA259uM017247; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 18:05:09 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr1.netsolmail.com (omr1.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.162]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA258cA017222 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 18:05:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr1.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAA25Dq1012609; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:05:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from boblaptop (68-174-167-137.nyc.rr.com [68.174.167.137]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BYA66085; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:05:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411100205.BYA66085@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: , Cc: "'Robert Sayre'" , "'Atom WG'" , "'Graham'" Subject: RE: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:05:08 -0500 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <193E34B8-32B7-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> thread-index: AcTGw96snXERvHnvQ/uRLGHgjk1fuAABJ5JQ Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > Bob, if we take HeadInEntry, should we lose atom:origin? -Tim If PaceHeadInEntry is accepted, then you don't need atom:origin since atom:id is an element of atom:head. If atom:head can be a child of atom:entry, then you don't need to fabricate atom:origin as a means of copying the feed's atom:id into the entry. bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 21:43:11 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA13311 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:43:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA2Z6Es030224; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 18:35:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAA2Z6aB030223; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 18:35:06 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr3.netsolmail.com (omr3.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.164]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA2Z5pt030213 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 18:35:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr3.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAA2ZArf006500; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:35:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from boblaptop (68-174-167-137.nyc.rr.com [68.174.167.137]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BYA71975; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:35:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411100235.BYA71975@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Graham'" , "'Tim Bray'" Cc: , "'Atom WG'" Subject: RE: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:35:06 -0500 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: thread-index: AcTGxnMYHSTsjJoWRGiPvQd6fkCZ/AABD+dg Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > I presume [the head-in-entry] would supercede the feed's main atom:head No. The atom.entry.head conveys completely different information then atom.feed.head. One should not supercede the other. Each has a role and each can be useful simultaneously. For instance, I might produce the following feed: Second Feed Corp. Source Feed Inc. Tom Bombadil ... The copyright for this feed, as a collection, is claimed by "Second Feed Corp." but the feed contains an entry whose copyright was claimed by "Tom Bombadil". Tom's entry had been extracted from a feed whose copyright was claimed by "Source Feed Inc.". All three copyright claims are active, valid, and "interesting" in at least some contexts. > The Pace makes no mention of how the data inside the > head-in-entries is to be processed, which says to be it > hasn't been thought through. I'm sure you won't be surprised to read that I actually do think that I've thought this through... But, that clearly isn't being communicated. I'd appreciate it very much if you could provide some specific questions that you think need to be answered. My fear is that if I write more, I will have written too much. bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 22:16:09 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA15484 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 22:16:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA2x4Ni038559; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 18:59:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAA2x44H038558; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 18:59:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA2x4ei038497 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 18:59:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004111002590401100g32m4e>; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 02:59:04 +0000 Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:59:05 -0700 Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <200411100235.BYA71975@ms8.netsolmail.com> Message-Id: <7BE19502-32C4-11D9-A07E-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, November 9, 2004, at 07:35 PM, Bob Wyman wrote: >> I presume [the head-in-entry] would supercede the feed's main >> atom:head > No. The atom.entry.head conveys completely different information > then atom.feed.head. One should not supercede the other. Each has a > role and > each can be useful simultaneously. > For instance, I might produce the following feed: > > Second Feed Corp. > > Source Feed Inc. > Tom Bombadil > ... > > > The copyright for this feed, as a collection, is claimed by "Second > Feed Corp." but the feed contains an entry whose copyright was claimed > by > "Tom Bombadil". Tom's entry had been extracted from a feed whose > copyright > was claimed by "Source Feed Inc.". All three copyright claims are > active, > valid, and "interesting" in at least some contexts. > But what about this: Joe Moe ...... According to the current draft (or at least the implication of requiring an unless every has one), inherits from . The the example above, it would make more sense for the entry's author to be Moe than Joe--Moe was the author when the entry was in its original feed, and aggregating into into this feed shouldn't change that. At a glance, it looks like is the only other element that might get inherited by : "The atom:copyright element may be assumed to apply to all entries contained by the feed except those entries which contain atom:copyright elements. The atom:copyright element MUST, if present, be considered to apply to the feed as a collection of entries." and later: "If an atom:entry element does not contain an atom:copyright element, then the atom:copyright element of the containing atom:feed element's atom:head element, if present, should be considered to apply to the entry." In that case too, clearly the copyright on the entry is not going to change just because it got aggregated into another feed. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 22:21:12 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA15877 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 22:21:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA322D1039610; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:02:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAA322l2039609; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:02:02 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA321b8039602 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:02:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA327ui008174 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:02:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6Y000FK0FJY4@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 20:02:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6Y00J8J0FIGS@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 20:02:07 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 19:02:10 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted In-reply-to: <1f2ed5cd041109120954fc850a@mail.gmail.com> To: "'Atom WG'" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1f2ed5cd041109112237fb3449@mail.gmail.com> <20041109195454.63672.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> <1f2ed5cd041109120954fc850a@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Anyhow, both PaceCategoryRevised and PaceCategoryElement are substantially richer than anything that's deployed in the field (a smattering of dc:subject and not much else). I'd be inclined to lean to CategoryElement because it's simpler, but could live with either CategoryRevised, or with nothing (leaves us with dc:subject which is all we have now anyhow). Since I haven't seen a -1 on any option, and there's damn little prior art to guide us, maybe a survey is in order. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 22:22:49 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA15974 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 22:22:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA3HcoI046011; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:17:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAA3HcSR046010; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:17:38 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA3HbUS046001 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:17:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA3HhNH001967 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:17:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6Y003BP15JEL@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 20:17:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6Y00JAS15IGS@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 20:17:43 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 19:17:45 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Revised PaceFieldingLinks In-reply-to: <255A59E6-32BA-11D9-8275-000393753936@gbiv.com> To: "Roy T. Fielding" Cc: Atom WG Message-id: <17606EAE-32C7-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <255A59E6-32BA-11D9-8275-000393753936@gbiv.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 9, 2004, at 5:45 PM, Roy T. Fielding wrote: > I think it would be better if my name wasn't in the page title. It won't go into the spec, our lengthy PaceWhatchamacallit tags are the equivalent of what W3C Working Groups call "Issue H27" and so on. Your name will not impinge on public consciousness past our Last Call. Until, of course, someone complains about the lameness of Atom's linking primitives, when of course we will blame it all on you. > It would be simpler to modify the proposal to just say that > the attribute is either a URI or a token, where the token is > equivalent to the URI obtained from appending the token to > "http://www.iana.org/assignments/relations/". In fact, I'll do > that right now. That's fine, except for the language about "interpreting the link the same way as it interprets generic metadata" adds no value, so, since we're whacking away at the Wiki, I'll replace that with a note that values of "rel=" impose no obligations on software behavior. > There are even valid arguments for not allowing any > sort of extensibility beyond that of ignore-unknown-elements. Indeed, except for we keep hearing assertions that in this particular area of linking elements, extensibility is golden. Plus, the cost is low. > Tim, you might want to consider taking all of the link and metadata > proposals and organizing them as a ladder, with levels of extensibility > being the rungs. Then get each person to indicate I think you joined us late enough to have forgone the benefits of a couple of thousand messages on link extensibility, plus assorted surveys and polls. I think the WG understands each other on this now, and speaking as co-chair, I think that PaceFieldingLinks is pretty well as far as the WG is prepared to go. > the > pure entertainment value of watching a group of professional and > semi-professional writers try to reach consensus on a design I think that form of entertainment is widely available across the IETF landscape. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 22:27:57 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA16247 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 22:27:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA3G01B045260; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:16:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAA3G0Rq045259; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:16:00 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA3FxQj045020 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:15:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (203.30.247.2) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:15:35 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:15:29 +1100 Subject: Re: atom:origin IS NOT LIKE RSS V2.0's element!!! From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200411100045.BYA48061@ms8.netsolmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/11/04 11:45 AM, "Bob Wyman" wrote: > tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-555 any screaming objections to this... tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-555 or even possibly this: Hmm ... someone remind me why atom:origin wants to communicate the feed:id and not the feed:href? Remembering though that every entry will have an atom:id to clearly identify the entry. Is it so we can establish precedence and history of that entry being passed from aggregator to aggregator? If an entry is originally published in Feed-A, picked up by an aggregator and republished in Feed-B, which is then picked up by another aggregator and republished in Feed-C ... what should the value of atom:origin in Feed-C be? Should it be the atom:id of Feed-B, or Feed-A? I'm starting to see as just a special case of , the same way the various service point links are. If so, then maybe it shouldn't be a special case of at all, since it will have a retrievable href which a user might want to go explore (thus fitting the pattern of other elements according to whichever pace). e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 22:30:19 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA16665 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 22:30:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA3OOLl049216; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:24:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAA3OOFo049206; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:24:24 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA3OMw2049131 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:24:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (203.30.247.2) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:24:26 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:24:19 +1100 Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1C43EADA-32A9-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/11/04 10:43 AM, "Tim Bray" wrote: > It seems to > me that and are two different bundles of metadata, in > which a lot of the same elements can appear. and remember that the reason many of the elements which appear in is just as a shorthand means of eliminating duplication in every . Remove those from and you've got much less overlap, right? e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 22:56:05 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA18776 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 22:56:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA3bnME053036; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:37:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAA3bn3j053035; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:37:49 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA3bnXg053024 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:37:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004111003374701300mqipde>; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 03:37:47 +0000 Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:37:48 -0700 Subject: Re: Revised PaceFieldingLinks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <17606EAE-32C7-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 'The value of "rel" MUST be either a name, which is non-empty and does not contain any colon (":") characters, or a URI [RFC2396bis, section 3].' Are we going to allow relative URIs? Or shall we change that to: 'The value of "rel" MUST be either a name, which is non-empty and does not contain any colon (":") characters, or an absolute URI [RFC2396bis, section 4.3].' I can't think of any reason to allow relative URIs...nor any reason why anyone would attempt to use one...so maybe it doesn't matter that much. But unless there would be some value in allowing relative URIs, we may as well nail this down more tightly. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 23:12:03 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA20129 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 23:12:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA3wVdp058369; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:58:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAA3wVDj058368; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:58:31 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail08.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail08.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.24]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iAA3wU7k058358 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:58:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 2308 messnum 3853371 invoked from network[83.70.255.40/83-70-255-40.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 10 Nov 2004 03:58:31 -0000 Received: from 83-70-255-40.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?192.168.123.143?) (83.70.255.40) by mail08.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 2308) with SMTP; 10 Nov 2004 03:58:31 -0000 Message-ID: <419191DD.9060408@dehora.net> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 03:58:21 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8a1) Gecko/20040520 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'Atom WG'" Subject: atom:origin and PaceHeadInEntry References: <200411100045.BYA48061@ms8.netsolmail.com> In-Reply-To: <200411100045.BYA48061@ms8.netsolmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Wyman wrote: > As I've explained before, atom:origin is largely useless in > aggregated feeds.[2] On the other hand, RSS's element is useful > since it communicates the most important information that an aggregator > needs to know about an entry's source feed when it displays that entry. The > PaceHeadInEntry defines a mechanism which should be combined with an > atom:source, similar to that defined by RSS V2.0, in order to properly > support the embedding of entries in aggregated feeds. I would like to see PaceHeadInEntry on the next work queue. Fwiw, I came up with atom:origin. It was designed very deliberately to stir the pot around 1) aggregated feeds, 2) relationships between feeds and entries, 3) Atom's identity model. I don't know whether references or values are the way to go, but I know we can do better; and the other feed formats are in no great shape either. In the meantime we have a lot to get through on this work queue and I'm not prepared to add another thread onto the recent list activity (Bray has been stirring a pot of his own). I request that we put this one aside for now. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 23:19:51 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA20624 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 23:19:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA4C5xY062450; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:12:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAA4C56N062448; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:12:05 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA4C4pW062438 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:12:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA4CAui002481 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:12:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6Y000483O9Y4@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 21:12:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6Y001H03O9ED@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 21:12:09 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 20:12:13 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Revised PaceFieldingLinks In-reply-to: To: Antone Roundy Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 9, 2004, at 7:37 PM, Antone Roundy wrote: > > 'The value of "rel" MUST be either a name, which is non-empty and does > not contain any colon (":") characters, or a URI [RFC2396bis, section > 3].' > > Are we going to allow relative URIs? Or shall we change that to: > > 'The value of "rel" MUST be either a name, which is non-empty and does > not contain any colon (":") characters, or an absolute URI > [RFC2396bis, section 4.3].' Er, Ray is using the terminology carefully, and saying URI not URI reference, but it would be better to underline this and say "No relative URIs." -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 23:31:28 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA21477 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 23:31:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA4MrqL066178; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:22:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAA4MrZg066176; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:22:53 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA4MqTu066088 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:22:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (203.30.247.2) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:22:59 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:22:52 +1100 Subject: Re: Revised PaceFieldingLinks From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/11/04 2:37 PM, "Antone Roundy" wrote: > I can't think of any reason to allow relative URIs...nor any reason why > anyone would attempt to use one...so maybe it doesn't matter that much. > But unless there would be some value in allowing relative URIs, we may > as well nail this down more tightly. I can think of reasons to disallow relative URIs, all to do with the intended use of the URI as tokens needing exact-matching-comparisons, not addresses for retrieval. +1 to "absolute URI" e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 23:42:45 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA22540 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 23:42:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA4XNgH070638; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:33:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAA4XNeA070637; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:33:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr4.netsolmail.com (omr4.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA4XNSZ070596 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:33:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr4.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAA4XQoq007704; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 23:33:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from boblaptop (68-174-167-137.nyc.rr.com [68.174.167.137]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BYA94879; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 23:33:25 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411100433.BYA94879@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Antone Roundy'" , Subject: Inheritance of feed metadata Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 23:33:22 -0500 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <7BE19502-32C4-11D9-A07E-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> thread-index: AcTG1H+j/FxMk3ilSsmrLHHuQTYnRwABr5vg Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Antone Roundy wrote: > According to the current draft (or at least the implication of > requiring an unless every has one), > inherits from . The the example above, it > would make more sense for the entry's author to be Moe than Joe >--Moe was the author when the entry was in its original feed, and > aggregating into this feed shouldn't change that. You are correct. And, if we ever get to the point of actually trying to replace the "[[explain inheritance]]" placeholder in the draft with real language then we'll be able to work these issues out. Basically, my position will be that an entry should ONLY inherit from the feed.head of that entry's source feed. If an entry is in a "foreign" feed, the feed metadata should be understood to apply to the feed as a container -- not to any externally sourced entries. Thus, feed.head.copyright feed.head.author, etc. specify attributes of the feed as a collection and are only inherited by "native" entries that do not explicitly provide this data. The easiest way to specify this is to say: 1. Feed metadata is only inherited by entries that do not contain a head element. Or, you only inherit from the "closest" head element. 2. Entries imported into a feed must contain a head element whose content should be the feed.head of their source. I think this is a very simple set of rules... In your example: > > Joe > > Moe > ...... > > It is clear that the author of the entry is Moe, not Joe. The reason is that the entry contains a head. Thus, the feed's head can't be used for inheritance. By declaring the two simple rules above, we also provide a mechanism for defining and controlling the "paths of inheritance" for any extension elements, attributes, etc. which might be defined in the future. This is a good thing since it means that we can expect more consistent implementation of inheritance across the board and thus a greatly likelihood of interoperability. Note: I would argue that the two rules above should be specified in a general statement about inheritance. I don't think it would be a good idea to write them into the description of each inheritable element. Thus, I wouldn't put those rules in either atom:copyright or atom:author. The rules should stand on their own or be written into the definition of . bob wyman -----Original Message----- From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Antone Roundy Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 9:59 PM To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown On Tuesday, November 9, 2004, at 07:35 PM, Bob Wyman wrote: >> I presume [the head-in-entry] would supercede the feed's main >> atom:head > No. The atom.entry.head conveys completely different information > then atom.feed.head. One should not supercede the other. Each has a > role and > each can be useful simultaneously. > For instance, I might produce the following feed: > > Second Feed Corp. > > Source Feed Inc. > Tom Bombadil > ... > > > The copyright for this feed, as a collection, is claimed by "Second > Feed Corp." but the feed contains an entry whose copyright was claimed > by > "Tom Bombadil". Tom's entry had been extracted from a feed whose > copyright > was claimed by "Source Feed Inc.". All three copyright claims are > active, > valid, and "interesting" in at least some contexts. > But what about this: Joe Moe ...... According to the current draft (or at least the implication of requiring an unless every has one), inherits from . The the example above, it would make more sense for the entry's author to be Moe than Joe--Moe was the author when the entry was in its original feed, and aggregating into into this feed shouldn't change that. At a glance, it looks like is the only other element that might get inherited by : "The atom:copyright element may be assumed to apply to all entries contained by the feed except those entries which contain atom:copyright elements. The atom:copyright element MUST, if present, be considered to apply to the feed as a collection of entries." and later: "If an atom:entry element does not contain an atom:copyright element, then the atom:copyright element of the containing atom:feed element's atom:head element, if present, should be considered to apply to the entry." In that case too, clearly the copyright on the entry is not going to change just because it got aggregated into another feed. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 9 23:50:53 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA23210 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 23:50:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA4gXNt074459; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:42:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAA4gXdY074458; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:42:33 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA4gWD7074411 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:42:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iAA4bRWl028574; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 04:37:28 GMT In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-1--652320558; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <397DC9A2-32D2-11D9-A4C0-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Cc: Antone Roundy , atom-syntax@imc.org From: Graham Subject: Re: Revised PaceFieldingLinks Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 04:37:27 +0000 To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-1--652320558 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10 Nov 2004, at 4:12 am, Tim Bray wrote: > On Nov 9, 2004, at 7:37 PM, Antone Roundy wrote: > >> 'The value of "rel" MUST be either a name, which is non-empty and >> does not contain any colon (":") characters, or a URI [RFC2396bis, >> section 3].' >> >> Are we going to allow relative URIs? Or shall we change that to: >> >> 'The value of "rel" MUST be either a name, which is non-empty and >> does not contain any colon (":") characters, or an absolute URI >> [RFC2396bis, section 4.3].' > > Er, Ray is using the terminology carefully, and saying URI not URI > reference, but it would be better to underline this and say "No > relative URIs." -Tim Erm, I thought when a name was used it was really a relative URI to the IANA base? Meaning that the value of rel is always a URI reference and never just a name? Thus resolving that reference ("related","./related","http://iana.etc/related","http://example.com/ extension",etc), would always give you the absolute URI of the relation. That's exactly what the processing model described does. Why not say so? 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Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 23:52:31 -0500 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: thread-index: AcTG1kvJkorZGWy5TYCUqLKmYfHoeQACYxpw Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Scheid wrote: > That's more expressive than RSS V2.0's since it provides type as well as URL and title, however, it still doesn't provide feed-level metadata such as "author", "copyright", etc. that are potentially vital to the proper interpretation of an entry. Some feed-level metadata is inheritable by entries, other feed-level metadata is important for understanding the context in which the entry was published or within which it was intended to be interpreted. > If an entry is originally published in Feed-A, picked up by an > aggregator and republished in Feed-B, which is then picked up by > another aggregator and republished in Feed-C ... what should the value > of atom:origin in Feed-C be? Should it be the atom:id of Feed-B, > or Feed-A? I believe that an entry can only have one "origin". In the case above, clearly the "origin" is Feed-A. It might, for some applications, be interesting to note from where the entry was most recently copied, however, that would be something other than origin. bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 00:11:50 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA24706 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 00:11:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA50jSo082325; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:00:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAA50jlR082324; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:00:45 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA50iHt082295 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:00:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (203.30.247.2) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:00:52 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:00:45 +1100 Subject: Re: atom:origin IS NOT LIKE RSS V2.0's element!!! From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200411100452.BYA97108@ms8.netsolmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/11/04 3:52 PM, "Bob Wyman" wrote: > Eric Scheid wrote: >> > > That's more expressive than RSS V2.0's since it provides > type as well as URL and title, however, it still doesn't provide feed-level > metadata such as "author", "copyright", etc. that are potentially vital to > the proper interpretation of an entry. ah, but now you do have the @href, so it won't be hard to go fetch it except ... besides the roundtrip pain you might encounter the current feed with changed meta-data (eg. a guest author), different from when the entry was actually published. Life would be so much simpler with a SSFF with discrete documents ;-) > Some feed-level metadata is > inheritable by entries, other feed-level metadata is important for > understanding the context in which the entry was published or within which > it was intended to be interpreted. just how far do we push the need for context though? >> If an entry is originally published in Feed-A, picked up by an >> aggregator and republished in Feed-B, which is then picked up by >> another aggregator and republished in Feed-C ... what should the value >> of atom:origin in Feed-C be? Should it be the atom:id of Feed-B, >> or Feed-A? > > I believe that an entry can only have one "origin". In the case > above, clearly the "origin" is Feed-A. It might, for some applications, be > interesting to note from where the entry was most recently copied, however, > that would be something other than origin. so an (unwritten?) rule of atom:origin is that when aggregating entries from source feeds, if the entry already has an atom:origin don't replace it with a new one? e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 00:20:29 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA25235 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 00:20:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA5Axal086963; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:10:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAA5AxpY086962; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:10:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.143.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA5AwtB086897 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:10:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC819CC; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:10:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net (spike.verity.com [10.69.100.102]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id iAA5AvKB016737; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:10:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 21:10:59 -0800 From: Walter Underwood To: "'Atom WG'" Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted Message-ID: <9C657D17C02E50F831E71CFC@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: References: <1f2ed5cd041109112237fb3449@mail.gmail.com> <20041109195454.63672.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> <1f2ed5cd041109120954fc850a@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Mac OS X) X-Face: 7Vqnb4fOVKsO)3JuUXKxR\M]:e"u'eG`Zue*.((7i7%P%rvZgS[j~95@C-s3i (s!e;OX`'Pngn5lq*Td}#,"5!^jm(65.";[GPtD^c(/1TtMe&wYO;_}\!}fRkxs%q#Jk 5E^BlXwR+8}qOwy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On Tuesday, November 9, 2004 7:02 PM -0800 Tim Bray wrote: > > Anyhow, both PaceCategoryRevised and PaceCategoryElement are substantially > richer than anything that's deployed in the field (a smattering of dc:subject > and not much else). I'd be inclined to lean to CategoryElement because it's > simpler, but could live with either CategoryRevised, or with nothing (leaves > us with dc:subject which is all we have now anyhow). Since I haven't seen > a -1 on any option, and there's damn little prior art to guide us, maybe a > survey is in order. -Tim OK, here is some prior art. The prior art goes back at least to Callimachus' catalogue for Alexandria. This should probably go into the problem statement for a Pace. Categories help navigation, by giving users a selection among a fixed set instead of having to guess the writers word choice. Guessing words is a losing bet, see "The Vocabulary Problem ...", Furnas et al, 1987. Categories also also provide a way to group related items by different authors. This is the primary application in libraries. But, categories are interpretations, so they are political and people disagree, sometimes violently about categorization. The same document might be categorized as "Wildlife Management" by one person and as "Crimes Against Mother Earth" by another. No one taxonomy will ever be suitable for all users. Displaying category hierarchy is useful and supports good practices like common subheads. If only the last nodes of these were displayed, we would lose something: Highway > Regulation Highway > Safety Maritime > Regulation Maritime > Safety On the other hand, taxonomies use quite different structures, some of them without hierarchy. Here are some common classification graph shapes. Most of these have more than one kind of link. Flat Tree (Dewey Decimal Classification, LC Classification) Tree with cross references (Yahoo, DMOZ) DAG (actually not used much, as far as I know) DAG with cross references (ANSI Z39.19, LC Subject Headings) Faceted (Epicurious recipes, lots of eCommerce sites) Spatial, either geographic or virtual Finally, we cannot reserve a character as a path separator unless we want to escape that character inside a category name. Which is messy. What does all this mean for Atom? 1. Representing entire taxonomies is outside the scope of Atom. 2. Atom needs to reference external taxonomies. 3. There may be an expanded view (breadcrumb or path) as well as a category name. So, a decent solution ought to have (some of these optional): an ID for the taxonomy an ID for the category within that a name for the category ("Safety") a display string for the category ("Maritime > Safety") If we do want to navigate a taxonomy within Atom, I'd recommend starting with ANSI Z39.19, which has the advantage of being used in real, working systems and having a readable spec. wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect, Verity From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 00:50:35 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA27046 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 00:50:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA5g5TR001071; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:42:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAA5g5qH001070; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:42:05 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA5g4V1001060 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:42:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA5gBNH019557 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 22:42:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6Y000437UAY4@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 22:42:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6Y00J4P7UAGS@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 09 Nov 2004 22:42:10 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 21:42:13 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted In-reply-to: <9C657D17C02E50F831E71CFC@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> To: Walter Underwood Cc: "'Atom WG'" Message-id: <45E2EE88-32DB-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1f2ed5cd041109112237fb3449@mail.gmail.com> <20041109195454.63672.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> <1f2ed5cd041109120954fc850a@mail.gmail.com> <9C657D17C02E50F831E71CFC@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 9, 2004, at 9:10 PM, Walter Underwood wrote: > So, a decent solution ought to have (some of these optional): > > an ID for the taxonomy > an ID for the category within that > a name for the category ("Safety") > a display string for the category ("Maritime > Safety") I wonder why you need both a name and an ID; if you conflate those two, you have more or less PaceCategoryRevised. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 01:47:33 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA01108 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 01:47:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA6bJPR036946; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 22:37:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAA6bJRJ036945; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 22:37:19 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.pubsub.com (mail.pubsub.com [209.11.36.150]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA6bIC6036769 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 22:37:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bobwyman@pubsub.com) Received: from boblaptop (68-174-167-137.nyc.rr.com [68.174.167.137]) by mail.pubsub.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF9D5A4EABF; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 01:37:15 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Eric Scheid'" , "'Atom Syntax'" Subject: RE: atom:origin IS NOT LIKE RSS V2.0's element!!! Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 01:37:13 -0500 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: thread-index: AcTG5WsbiTM2/UUaTz+0mk9YoHosIgACQ2CQ Message-Id: <20041110063715.CF9D5A4EABF@mail.pubsub.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Scheid wrote: >> >ah, but now you do have the @href, so it won't be hard to go fetch it Actually, it would be quite a burden. You would have to fetch the full source feed for every entry in the aggregated feed just to pick up a few header elements. Given that many feeds contain 20, 30, or more items, and it isn't possible to fetch less than 100% of a feed given HTTP, you're going to be wasting more than 10 times as much network bandwidth then would be used if the elements were simply inserted into the entries. Some will argue that you could "cache" header data you've seen for various "origin" feeds. However, if the entries inserted into the feed come from a large pool of feeds (like the millions that we filter at PubSub), then you're going to find that the vast majority of entries in the feed will be appearing for the first time or will appear so infrequently that cached data will have expired. Thus, the solution you propose, fetch the feed to pull in the contents of , turns the system into nothing more than a poorly and inefficiently built ping based system. i.e. the contents of the aggregated feed really should be reduced to nothing more than an atom:id and the origin URL. Since you're going to fetch the feed anyway, why bother having any more data in the aggregate feed? I still contend that atom:origin does nothing useful for aggregated feeds. Origin, even if extended as you propose, just doesn't address the issues in a reasonable fashion. bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 03:35:55 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA09328 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 03:35:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA8L43r015004; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 00:21:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAA8L4mN015003; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 00:21:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from fed1rmmtao03.cox.net (fed1rmmtao03.cox.net [68.230.241.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAA8L0DS014866 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 00:21:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fielding@gbiv.com) Received: from [192.168.0.100] (really [68.4.71.218]) by fed1rmmtao03.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-117-20041022) with ESMTP id <20041110082055.FQGP21104.fed1rmmtao03.cox.net@[192.168.0.100]> for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 03:20:55 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: <397DC9A2-32D2-11D9-A4C0-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> References: <397DC9A2-32D2-11D9-A4C0-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <710CC2B8-32F1-11D9-8275-000393753936@gbiv.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Roy T. Fielding" Subject: Re: Revised PaceFieldingLinks Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 00:20:54 -0800 To: Atom WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On 10 Nov 2004, at 4:12 am, Tim Bray wrote: >> On Nov 9, 2004, at 7:37 PM, Antone Roundy wrote: >> >>> 'The value of "rel" MUST be either a name, which is non-empty and >>> does not contain any colon (":") characters, or a URI [RFC2396bis, >>> section 3].' >>> >>> Are we going to allow relative URIs? Or shall we change that to: >>> >>> 'The value of "rel" MUST be either a name, which is non-empty and >>> does not contain any colon (":") characters, or an absolute URI >>> [RFC2396bis, section 4.3].' >> >> Er, Roy is using the terminology carefully, and saying URI not URI >> reference, but it would be better to underline this and say "No >> relative URIs." -Tim I was indeed being precise and referring to an actual syntax production that does not include relative references but does include fragments (for the truly pedantic). We can't say "No relative URIs" because some people can't handle the combination of those two words without a conniption fit, and we can't say "Only absolute URIs" because that would exclude fragment identifiers. At best we could add "Note that relative references to a URI are not allowed." On Nov 9, 2004, at 8:37 PM, Graham wrote: > Erm, I thought when a name was used it was really a relative URI to > the IANA base? Meaning that the value of rel is always a URI reference > and never just a name? Thus resolving that reference > ("related","./related","http://iana.etc/related","http://example.com/ > extension",etc), would always give you the absolute URI of the > relation. That's exactly what the processing model described does. Why > not say so? Because that is what the proposal formerly said, before it was simplified by removing that feature. There are no relative references of interest here other than the flat namespace of the registry itself, so there is no real value in treating it as a special case of URI reference. We get the same effect by just concatenating the two, as Antone suggested in a prior thread. The value this has over XML namespaces is twofold: 1) it encourages standardization on a small set of commonly agreed terms by placing those terms in a community location and giving them efficiency-preference in the data format; and 2) the relation is defined as a form of content, rather than as a byproduct of XML name collision avoidance. I think the IANA registry should be as simple as possible -- like the recent changes to the header field registry and various proposals for a URI scheme registry. There is no need for IESG approval. ....Roy From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 05:21:32 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA19184 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 05:21:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAAB1Lc095721; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 02:11:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAAAB1ds095719; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 02:11:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAAB11j095707 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 02:11:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 1so303718rny for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 02:11:01 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=B05ZfHwdTcMZNd5r0Z/r/9NhzMABtR0Uh656EB8uX/ob1CdvhZDwD6jQF9gino6ylJwxhWt4sEN6iVmrf2yVp2MFqES2udCS5v6hMWGPtmsjfDhHxwBujP6YZqQB1pF9vKazEUBINwiM3z1oYVB77KrJoqkoKgzDFVp7QIL4kT8= Received: by 10.38.10.71 with SMTP id 71mr672348rnj; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 02:11:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 02:11:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04111002117d87d5ea@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 11:11:01 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Tim Bray Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted Cc: Walter Underwood , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <45E2EE88-32DB-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <1f2ed5cd041109112237fb3449@mail.gmail.com> <20041109195454.63672.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> <1f2ed5cd041109120954fc850a@mail.gmail.com> <9C657D17C02E50F831E71CFC@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> <45E2EE88-32DB-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 21:42:13 -0800, Tim Bray wrote: > > On Nov 9, 2004, at 9:10 PM, Walter Underwood wrote: > > > So, a decent solution ought to have (some of these optional): > > > > an ID for the taxonomy > > an ID for the category within that > > a name for the category ("Safety") > > a display string for the category ("Maritime > Safety") > > I wonder why you need both a name and an ID; if you conflate those two, > you have more or less PaceCategoryRevised. -Tim Yep, I think on the Web these will usually be one and the same, either a full URI or something that can be used to create a URI when combined with the taxonomy ID with a # or a /. Nice to see Walter's analysis. I'd add that RDF schemas/OWL ontologies could be described as being digraph classifications (possibly cyclic), though they aren't so likely to be used directly in blog categorization in this form. A more likely use of these technologies here through SKOS [1], to use existing taxonomies in a consistent Web-friendly form, e.g. as in FOAF Output [2]. (Cyc and WordNet are possible examples of what could be used for a more direct mapping, but work is under way to refactor WordNet in RDF, possibly using SKOS as a level of concept indirection). Walter, re. prior art - which came first, Callimachus' catalogue or Aristotle's Categories? [3] Cheers, Danny. [1] http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/ [2] http://www.wasab.dk/morten/blog/archives/2004/07/05/wordpress-plugin-foaf-output [3] http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/categories.html -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 06:14:53 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA23397 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:14:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAB5Z9V035240; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 03:05:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAAB5ZML035239; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 03:05:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAB5ZZF035230 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 03:05:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so283768rns for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 03:05:36 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=uT3mCisDmEYHiPGGKoEmQSmuAd997q0ChkqO2pWXUfFNKYu5Y6EbERX2xuBI2MSTPLpmZXR0pEC/+00EWYZd/aLvUWIqAdo+xYWedcFdBQh0Bg9Nj1kUK869+zAETI7e5qng41b87qSvbps6Djw1STPF9TVh8oAynS017FeoEgc= Received: by 10.38.179.47 with SMTP id b47mr681286rnf; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 03:05:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 03:05:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04111003057a0a20cc@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:05:36 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Extensibility use case: photoblogging with geolocation Cc: libby.miller@bristol.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iAAB5ZZF035233 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A nifty-sounding system (largely it seems based around a plugin for Movable Type) - "Balog : Location-based information aggregation system. " [1] Described by Libby [2]: "The authors took a picture [with a mobile phone] and sent it to their server and it appeared indexed by gps location. So a really nice immediate demo of a gps photo blog.". The paper [1] has a screenshot of the photo appearing in a browser alongside a map showing its location. The system currently pulls out the EXIF data from JPEGs, the RSS 1.0 they're proposing looks like: camio http://www.Balog.jp/~hiro/mt/archives/000335.html 
. hiro-moblog 2004-06-12T17:21:41+09:00 35.40828 139.59548 [1] http://iswc2004.semanticweb.org/posters/PID-ZFOVEXEK-1090248437.pdf [2] http://planb.nicecupoftea.org/archives/001057.html -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 06:33:17 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA24846 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:33:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAABMl3Y047291; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 03:22:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAABMlkh047290; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 03:22:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.205]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAABMksp047273 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 03:22:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so284341rns for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 03:22:47 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=EERKNBPUAgQwdS/hrdhTg+Ndq12DTKT8kSsNJuthNaRdpVGqay6Cp6W7umGxmnQV3jJzGgrSDkFcHW44onILhefzEjX5YcBGydI3+gmt3QIdI27VbFfttd4dGom2hF2yNBlc8RzzBvr30gO3cCuSA9HAIuWlTLcNyDphQ8vJ/60= Received: by 10.38.8.19 with SMTP id 19mr699370rnh; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 03:22:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 03:22:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd041110032273752e28@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:22:47 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: solving the extensibility problem Cc: atom-owl@googlegroups.com, Henry Story , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <20041109170557.58053.qmail@web40801.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <1f2ed5cd04110908243c926084@mail.gmail.com> <20041109170557.58053.qmail@web40801.mail.yahoo.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A little postscript - I just discovered this online demo of the Sparql query language applied to RSS 2.0 (yes, 2.0) which might amuse: http://tinyurl.com/5cl2z see also: http://esw.w3.org/topic/DawgShows ---- original URI was: http://librdf.org/query?command=query&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scripting.com%2Frss.xml&language=sparql&query=PREFIX+rss%3A+%3Chttp%3A%2F%2Fpurl.org%2Frss%2F1.0%2F%3E%0D%0ASELECT+%3Fdescription%0D%0AWHERE+%28+%3Fitem+rdf%3Atype+rss%3Aitem+%29%0D%0A++++++%28+%3Fitem+rss%3Adescription+%3Fdescription+%29 -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 07:25:56 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA29177 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:25:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAACDNk6082781; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 04:13:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAACDNp4082779; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 04:13:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.204]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAACDNIh082768 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 04:13:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dajobe@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id y7so212680rne for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 04:13:24 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=EFXm7MPUMqJYFggOouHBD2b5+NEMHFFfw2Gl9JZQ3cJI2u7p/lsjZFkUfSdHJS5c+rK+QMjrxOgLIvyqg6HcmehdQRI+ed1SK5J/1KpCEu4FtCKyJ0iJ7SIbxPIATAGZndajTG6M9rEk1zrE++Pt60ihaRaXygh/WE5gvAVyVZ0= Received: by 10.38.74.43 with SMTP id w43mr364824rna; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 04:10:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.83.35 with HTTP; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 04:10:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <8335bdf604111004104547b9df@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:10:37 +0000 From: Dave Beckett Reply-To: Dave Beckett To: Danny Ayers Subject: Re: solving the extensibility problem Cc: Dare Obasanjo , atom-owl@googlegroups.com, Henry Story , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd041110032273752e28@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <1f2ed5cd04110908243c926084@mail.gmail.com> <20041109170557.58053.qmail@web40801.mail.yahoo.com> <1f2ed5cd041110032273752e28@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:22:47 +0100, Danny Ayers wrote: > > A little postscript - I just discovered this online demo of the Sparql > query language applied to RSS 2.0 (yes, 2.0) which might amuse: > > http://tinyurl.com/5cl2z > > see also: > http://esw.w3.org/topic/DawgShows > > ---- > > original URI was: > http://librdf.org/query?command=query&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scripting.com%2Frss.xml&language=sparql&query=PREFIX+rss%3A+%3Chttp%3A%2F%2Fpurl.org%2Frss%2F1.0%2F%3E%0D%0ASELECT+%3Fdescription%0D%0AWHERE+%28+%3Fitem+rdf%3Atype+rss%3Aitem+%29%0D%0A++++++%28+%3Fitem+rss%3Adescription+%3Fdescription+%29 Yeah I made that, barely a few hours ago. Be gentle. [that command=query thing should go, bad me. It's just a data GET] Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 08:02:17 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA03240 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 08:02:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAACnJlt006978; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 04:49:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAACnJhj006977; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 04:49:19 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAACnIj6006869 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 04:49:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iAACYWYW016508; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:34:37 GMT In-Reply-To: <710CC2B8-32F1-11D9-8275-000393753936@gbiv.com> References: <397DC9A2-32D2-11D9-A4C0-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <710CC2B8-32F1-11D9-8275-000393753936@gbiv.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-2--623696265; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: Cc: Atom WG From: Graham Subject: Re: Revised PaceFieldingLinks Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:34:31 +0000 To: "Roy T. Fielding" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-2--623696265 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10 Nov 2004, at 8:20 am, Roy T. Fielding wrote: > Because that is what the proposal formerly said, before it was > simplified > by removing that feature. How is it a simplification? Let's code it (in Cocoa): Either: NSURL *baseURL=[NSURL URLWithString:@"http://www.iana.org/assignments/relation/"]; NSURL *relationURL=[NSURL URLWithString:rel baseURL:baseURL]; vs NSURL *relationURL; if ([rel rangeOfString:@":"].location==NSNotFound) { relURL=[NSURL URLWithString:[@"http://www.iana.org/assignments/relation/" stringByAppendingString:rel]]; } else { relURL=[NSURL URLWithString:rel]; } > There are no relative references of interest > here other than the flat namespace of the registry itself, so there is > no real value in treating it as a special case of URI reference. OK, I get that there aren't any valid relative URI refs that aren't part of the registry, so I get your motivation for the change. It doesn't actually lead to a simplification of the spec or the code in any language that has URL classes. 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Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:43:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAFSkcQ070224; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:28:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAAFSksF070223; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:28:46 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAFSj0M070141 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:28:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004111015284001300mrbgte>; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:28:40 +0000 Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 08:28:38 -0700 Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <9C657D17C02E50F831E71CFC@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> Message-Id: <31A70675-332D-11D9-8073-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, November 9, 2004, at 10:10 PM, Walter Underwood wrote: > Finally, we cannot reserve a character as a path separator unless > we want to escape that character inside a category name. Which is > messy. > Thus my suggestion to add an optional attribute to indicate what the path separator is. http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11338.html From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 10:48:41 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA22569 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:48:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAFgwfu075657; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:42:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAAFgwWY075656; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:42:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.143.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAFgvWJ075574 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:42:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2438EAA for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:42:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net (spike.verity.com [10.69.100.102]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id iAAFgsKB018676 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:42:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:42:56 -0800 From: Walter Underwood To: "'Atom WG'" Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted Message-ID: <18B0CF7DD4BD0287DCFFCE57@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45E2EE88-32DB-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> References: <1f2ed5cd041109112237fb3449@mail.gmail.com> <20041109195454.63672.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> <1f2ed5cd041109120954fc850a@mail.gmail.com> <9C657D17C02E50F831E71CFC@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> <45E2EE88-32DB-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Mac OS X) X-Face: 7Vqnb4fOVKsO)3JuUXKxR\M]:e"u'eG`Zue*.((7i7%P%rvZgS[j~95@C-s3i (s!e;OX`'Pngn5lq*Td}#,"5!^jm(65.";[GPtD^c(/1TtMe&wYO;_}\!}fRkxs%q#Jk 5E^BlXwR+8}qOwy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On Tuesday, November 9, 2004 9:42 PM -0800 Tim Bray wrote: > On Nov 9, 2004, at 9:10 PM, Walter Underwood wrote: > >> So, a decent solution ought to have (some of these optional): >> >> an ID for the taxonomy >> an ID for the category within that >> a name for the category ("Safety") >> a display string for the category ("Maritime > Safety") > > I wonder why you need both a name and an ID; if you conflate those two, > you have more or less PaceCategoryRevised. -Tim The simple category names are not unique because of common subheadings. "Safety" is the name of both "Maritime > Safety" and "Highways > Safety". So you need some other node ID to distinguish them. This is a real example from the National Transportation Library at the US Dept. of Transportation. We added full a topic path display option because the simple names were insufficient. I think that LC Subject Headings (LCSH) uses LC Classification (LCC) as the category IDs, but I'd have to double check that. In library jargon, "classification" gives a unique hierarchial location for each document, because it is used for shelf position, while "subject headings" allow discovery under multiple categories. A subject heading might have multiple parents, while classification cannot. wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect, Verity From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 11:01:22 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA24227 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 11:01:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAFsxOj080384; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:54:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAAFsxmK080382; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:54:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.143.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAFswoI080347 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:54:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84B0ACF for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:54:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net (spike.verity.com [10.69.100.102]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id iAAFstKB018722 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:54:55 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:54:57 -0800 From: Walter Underwood To: Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted Message-ID: <75248156B83052C397CC342A@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd04111002117d87d5ea@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f2ed5cd041109112237fb3449@mail.gmail.com> <20041109195454.63672.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> <1f2ed5cd041109120954fc850a@mail.gmail.com> <9C657D17C02E50F831E71CFC@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> <45E2EE88-32DB-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <1f2ed5cd04111002117d87d5ea@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Mac OS X) X-Face: 7Vqnb4fOVKsO)3JuUXKxR\M]:e"u'eG`Zue*.((7i7%P%rvZgS[j~95@C-s3i (s!e;OX`'Pngn5lq*Td}#,"5!^jm(65.";[GPtD^c(/1TtMe&wYO;_}\!}fRkxs%q#Jk 5E^BlXwR+8}qOwy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On Wednesday, November 10, 2004 11:11 AM +0100 Danny Ayers wrote: > > Walter, re. prior art - which came first, Callimachus' catalogue or > Aristotle's Categories? [3] Ah. Different things. Callimachus (300-240 BC) was doing access, and Aristotle (384-322 BC) was doing essence. Access is measurable, and thus engineering. Essence is philosophy. Or religion. wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect, Verity From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 11:45:43 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA29201 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 11:45:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAFwSp2081595; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:58:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAAFwSsp081593; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:58:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAFwQj6081553 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:58:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iAAFoGj3013923; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:50:21 GMT In-Reply-To: <31A70675-332D-11D9-8073-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> References: <31A70675-332D-11D9-8073-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-4--611950964; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <37A4E62C-3330-11D9-A4C0-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Graham Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:50:16 +0000 To: Antone Roundy X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-4--611950964 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10 Nov 2004, at 3:28 pm, Antone Roundy wrote: > Thus my suggestion to add an optional attribute to indicate what the > path separator is. ? (I'd like atom:category to have an optional href value, btw) Graham --Apple-Mail-4--611950964 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMTEwMTU1MDE3WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUFv8GOBWM/1f66ulAE7oEAIvR IaQweAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEADvMdKyPRc4TfbjNGCGmSIte+ JMpEkuFwSCpmsg6zgBbgSsikRDIAf56vajH8/ivlrZU9LfoB0VU+amIHaOj8TF3rrUK3B9oqzMDs ONMnlnq/PXrRGFVvsHqIeewK7vtSvUpeR4l9lBu+ubhsEvnSONSGxiiOMuH1QRCJdry8Iupna3p3 glP8pPXcnRzA31/oosWT1xXKWf+i0jj6mTP6QICJtHCkEVhIaufIqmF+emzSbpzcSiltxVXVMlK3 zy8jx+dKgjF5GyVF0p2xsMsteoDvqv7K8XjZLBTaJ0k/rQ74PLJbcAOZ+0dTHMtbg/FNETeW5mkF LZzNZWnXLNf3HwAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-4--611950964-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 11:52:52 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA29988 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 11:52:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAGilMR095329; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 08:44:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAAGilbs095327; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 08:44:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.201]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAGikbN095276 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 08:44:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so299883rns for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 08:44:44 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=mtFRetiKyDxhZsdtQ1nK0p0neVhQiz8a6jAJfk8j2QnLVpaZRguFfaDooY66NPOwP/8bX46/UV6eIWbR/fV2sxeUqILDRcgDTnBKDcJu4629RlzZpDJjP/SU1EbhgRILn0SLTZrkzptEVYV9ebfQoxIKo72/PzQeKv7RsIq09qM= Received: by 10.38.8.19 with SMTP id 19mr818866rnh; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 08:44:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 08:44:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0411100844202ad24c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:44:44 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Walter Underwood Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: <18B0CF7DD4BD0287DCFFCE57@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <1f2ed5cd041109112237fb3449@mail.gmail.com> <20041109195454.63672.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> <1f2ed5cd041109120954fc850a@mail.gmail.com> <9C657D17C02E50F831E71CFC@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> <45E2EE88-32DB-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <18B0CF7DD4BD0287DCFFCE57@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:42:56 -0800, Walter Underwood wrote: > > > > --On Tuesday, November 9, 2004 9:42 PM -0800 Tim Bray wrote: > > On Nov 9, 2004, at 9:10 PM, Walter Underwood wrote: > > > >> So, a decent solution ought to have (some of these optional): > >> > >> an ID for the taxonomy > >> an ID for the category within that > >> a name for the category ("Safety") > >> a display string for the category ("Maritime > Safety") > > > > I wonder why you need both a name and an ID; if you conflate those two, > > you have more or less PaceCategoryRevised. -Tim > > The simple category names are not unique because of common subheadings. > "Safety" is the name of both "Maritime > Safety" and "Highways > Safety". > So you need some other node ID to distinguish them. Ok, but it does seem to be leading towards a big jump from a simple string in dc:subject. > This is a real example from the National Transportation Library > at the US Dept. of Transportation. We added full a topic path > display option because the simple names were insufficient. Couldn't the topic path be used as the label instead of the name where needed? > In library jargon, "classification" gives a unique hierarchial location > for each document, because it is used for shelf position, while > "subject headings" allow discovery under multiple categories. > A subject heading might have multiple parents, while classification > cannot. Couldn't such a situation be dealt with using multiple elements where needed, being explicit, something like: Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 12:26:28 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA03413 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:26:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAHHTxd005506; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:17:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAAHHTGg005505; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:17:29 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAHHSwq005498 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:17:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAHHVui024701 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:17:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6Z004SD416A7@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:17:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6Z001Y1416E5@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:17:30 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:17:35 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted In-reply-to: <18B0CF7DD4BD0287DCFFCE57@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> To: Walter Underwood Cc: "'Atom WG'" Message-id: <69DD6ABF-333C-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1f2ed5cd041109112237fb3449@mail.gmail.com> <20041109195454.63672.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> <1f2ed5cd041109120954fc850a@mail.gmail.com> <9C657D17C02E50F831E71CFC@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> <45E2EE88-32DB-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <18B0CF7DD4BD0287DCFFCE57@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 10, 2004, at 7:42 AM, Walter Underwood wrote: >>> an ID for the taxonomy >>> an ID for the category within that >>> a name for the category ("Safety") >>> a display string for the category ("Maritime > Safety") >> >> I wonder why you need both a name and an ID; if you conflate those >> two, >> you have more or less PaceCategoryRevised. -Tim > > The simple category names are not unique because of common subheadings. > "Safety" is the name of both "Maritime > Safety" and "Highways > > Safety". > So you need some other node ID to distinguish them. Pardon me for being dense, but if you have a unique identifier and a display version, why do you need a name too? -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 12:45:47 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA05172 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:45:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAHc20J013769; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:38:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAAHc26Z013768; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:38:02 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.143.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAHc12v013726 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:38:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 287EEA8 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:38:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.150.112] (diva.verity.com [192.168.150.112]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id iAAHbxKB019005 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:37:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:45:38 -0800 From: Walter Underwood To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted Message-ID: <3CA046D600864D736173E5C9@diva.verity.com> In-Reply-To: <31A70675-332D-11D9-8073-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> References: <31A70675-332D-11D9-8073-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On Wednesday, November 10, 2004 08:28:38 AM -0700 Antone Roundy wrote: > > On Tuesday, November 9, 2004, at 10:10 PM, Walter Underwood wrote: >> Finally, we cannot reserve a character as a path separator unless >> we want to escape that character inside a category name. Which is >> messy. >> > Thus my suggestion to add an optional attribute to indicate what the path separator is. There are a few reasons why we shouldn't do that. 1. There is no need for the client to parse the path. That is, the client is not going to click on parts of the path to navigate. It may need to display it, but not parse it. 2. Selecting any character, even a configurable one, makes that character unavailable for use inside names. 3. Many systems (faceted, geographic, DAGs) don't have paths, so this would only apply to some. wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect Verity Ultraseek From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 12:49:00 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA05409 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:49:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAHbvqQ013740; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:37:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAAHbvDf013738; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:37:57 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAHbrIU013709 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:37:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 99640 invoked by uid 17064); 10 Nov 2004 17:37:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.2]) ([83.112.8.145]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 10 Nov 2004 17:37:56 -0000 In-Reply-To: <7BA10B5A-3260-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> References: <7BA10B5A-3260-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <3EC03284-333F-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: atom-owl@googlegroups.com From: Henry Story Subject: Re: solving the extensibility problem Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 18:37:51 +0100 To: Atom WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks everyone for the great feedback. Lots of good ideas. And it has also helped me formulate a smoother formulation of the task: this is to define an RSS2.0 type extension template to allow Atom to be transformed into RDF so that RDF extensions can be used with ease. So this task is not huge, but it will take a little work. Web wide participation is welcome :-) We just need to cut up the task into each one of the objects defined in the OWL Ontology [1], and try to see if we can find the closest serialisation of it to the current Atom format. This will probably help reveal flaws in the OWL ontology, the proposed serialization, and perhaps even in the Atom spec. I will be contributing a little every day or so, as I get some time off from writing BlogEd. Henry Story http://bblfish.net/blog/ [1] I use the new Atom.owl spec I have made available at http://bblfish.net/work/atom-owl/2004-11-09/Atom.owl http://bblfish.net/work/atom-owl/2004-11-09/Atom.html (ignore the W3C Recommendation on the right hand side :-) From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 13:01:36 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA06755 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 13:01:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAHsHD4020421; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:54:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAAHsHwk020420; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:54:17 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.143.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAHsG94020373 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:54:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE9C3E2 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:54:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.150.112] (diva.verity.com [192.168.150.112]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id iAAHsEKB019087 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:54:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:01:53 -0800 From: Walter Underwood To: "'Atom WG'" Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted Message-ID: <79C9EC8A538D11047452E844@diva.verity.com> In-Reply-To: <69DD6ABF-333C-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> References: <1f2ed5cd041109112237fb3449@mail.gmail.com> <20041109195454.63672.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> <1f2ed5cd041109120954fc850a@mail.gmail.com> <9C657D17C02E50F831E71CFC@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> <45E2EE88-32DB-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <18B0CF7DD4BD0287DCFFCE57@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> <69DD6ABF-333C-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On Wednesday, November 10, 2004 09:17:35 AM -0800 Tim Bray wrote: > > Pardon me for being dense, but if you have a unique identifier and > a display version, why do you need a name too? -Tim I should have included examples, but the message was already pretty long. Sorry about that. taxonomy ID: National Transportation Library category ID: 283 category name: "Safety" display name: "Maritime > Safety" Another reason for a separate category ID is that taxonomies change, so the path cannot be a key. A category for a single politician might move from "Governors" to "Senators" to "Attorney General", and then to "Retired". If you want to keep the "John Ashcroft" articles together, then the category ID must be independent of the path. And then there is the mutiple path issue. Here is a made-up taxonomy to demonstrate that. taxonomy ID: US Political Stuff category ID: jashcroft1 category name: John Ashcroft display name: People | Politicians | Retired | John Ashcroft display name: Political Parties | Republican | People | John Ashcroft display name: Presidential Administrations | George W. Bush | Cabinet | John Ashcroft wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect Verity Ultraseek From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 13:19:20 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA08175 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 13:19:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAIAWCp027159; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:10:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAAIAWE7027158; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:10:32 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAIAWkE027111 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:10:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004111018102901400qnfige>; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 18:10:30 +0000 Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 11:10:29 -0700 Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <3CA046D600864D736173E5C9@diva.verity.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday, November 10, 2004, at 10:45 AM, Walter Underwood wrote: > --On Wednesday, November 10, 2004 08:28:38 AM -0700 Antone Roundy > wrote: >> On Tuesday, November 9, 2004, at 10:10 PM, Walter Underwood wrote: >>> Finally, we cannot reserve a character as a path separator unless >>> we want to escape that character inside a category name. Which is >>> messy. >>> >> Thus my suggestion to add an optional attribute to indicate what the >> path separator is. > > There are a few reasons why we shouldn't do that. > > 1. There is no need for the client to parse the path. That is, the > client > is not going to click on parts of the path to navigate. It may need to > display it, but not parse it. Not necessarily true--the client may use the category path to automatically file feeds and/or entries in some sort of hierarchical system. > 2. Selecting any character, even a configurable one, makes that > character > unavailable for use inside names. Any well-designed system that has paths will have a way to escape its path character, or will not use it in its names. > 3. Many systems (faceted, geographic, DAGs) don't have paths, so this > would only apply to some. That's easy enough to accommodate as follows: 1) If @domain is not specified, then the default domain is used. It's rules are: a) The category name is a hierarchical path. b) There is no default hierarchy. c) The default path separator is "/". d) An empty path separator may be specified (path-separator=""). This results in a non-hierarchical system. 2) If @domain is specified, there is no Atom-specified default path separator. If the system is hierarchical, @path-separator SHOULD be specified. Thus flat systems that use "/" in names could be done in either of the following ways: This / is / not / hierarchical This / is / not / hierarchical From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 13:29:30 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA09643 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 13:29:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAIMNvN032879; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:22:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAAIMND9032878; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:22:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAIMMCr032859 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:22:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAIMQNH018243 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 11:22:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6Z00B4471DLC@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 11:22:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.0.0.235] ([154.20.35.151]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6Z0013571CE5@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 11:22:25 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:22:30 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted In-reply-to: <79C9EC8A538D11047452E844@diva.verity.com> To: Walter Underwood Cc: "'Atom WG'" Message-id: <7BCB48BC-3345-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1f2ed5cd041109112237fb3449@mail.gmail.com> <20041109195454.63672.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> <1f2ed5cd041109120954fc850a@mail.gmail.com> <9C657D17C02E50F831E71CFC@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> <45E2EE88-32DB-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <18B0CF7DD4BD0287DCFFCE57@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> <69DD6ABF-333C-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <79C9EC8A538D11047452E844@diva.verity.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 10, 2004, at 10:01 AM, Walter Underwood wrote: > I should have included examples, but the message was already pretty > long. > Sorry about that. Walter, this is making me feel really stupid because I'm just not getting the point about the category name. > taxonomy ID: National Transportation Library > category ID: 283 > category name: "Safety" > display name: "Maritime > Safety" For the computer, I have the taxonomy/category ID pair. For humans, I have the display name. Who needs the category name? > Another reason for a separate category ID is that taxonomies change, > so the path cannot be a key. Right, nobody's arguing against the notion of the ID. You say you need taxID, catID, catName, and displayName. I'm saying "why catName"? > taxonomy ID: US Political Stuff > category ID: jashcroft1 > category name: John Ashcroft > display name: People | Politicians | Retired | John Ashcroft > display name: Political Parties | Republican | People | John Ashcroft > display name: Presidential Administrations | George W. Bush | Cabinet > | John Ashcroft The notion of having multiple display names hadn't occurred to me but seems sound; in which case it has to be a subelement, not an attribute. But once again, I ask, in the example above, why do you need "category name"? -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 14:10:19 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA14617 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:10:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAIrJkD048096; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:53:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAAIrJIS048095; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:53:19 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.143.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAIrJ9D048044 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:53:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C57A5C5 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:53:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.150.112] (diva.verity.com [192.168.150.112]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id iAAIrHKB019306 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:53:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 11:00:56 -0800 From: Walter Underwood To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted Message-ID: <094ADF39B2179CB2A1B23D46@diva.verity.com> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On Wednesday, November 10, 2004 11:10:29 AM -0700 Antone Roundy wrote: >> >> 1. There is no need for the client to parse the path. That is, the >> client is not going to click on parts of the path to navigate. It may >> need to display it, but not parse it. > > Not necessarily true--the client may use the category path to automatically > file feeds and/or entries in some sort of hierarchical system. Then fetch the taxonomy definition outside of Atom, implement it locally, and file the entry or feed properly. Use the categoryID to locate the right spot in the taxonomy. Taxonomy representation is well outside the scope of Atom, and well-covered by existing specs. wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect Verity Ultraseek From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 14:22:21 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA15850 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:22:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAJCkhS055484; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 11:12:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAAJCke9055483; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 11:12:46 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.143.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAJCjWJ055422 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 11:12:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87C60DC for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 11:12:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.150.112] (diva.verity.com [192.168.150.112]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id iAAJCiKB019363 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 11:12:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 11:20:23 -0800 From: Walter Underwood To: "'Atom WG'" Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted Message-ID: <00DBB4C94C1EF6A66694ACB7@diva.verity.com> In-Reply-To: <7BCB48BC-3345-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> References: <1f2ed5cd041109112237fb3449@mail.gmail.com> <20041109195454.63672.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> <1f2ed5cd041109120954fc850a@mail.gmail.com> <9C657D17C02E50F831E71CFC@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> <45E2EE88-32DB-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <18B0CF7DD4BD0287DCFFCE57@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> <69DD6ABF-333C-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <79C9EC8A538D11047452E844@diva.verity.com> <7BCB48BC-3345-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On Wednesday, November 10, 2004 10:22:30 AM -0800 Tim Bray wrote: > > The notion of having multiple display names hadn't occurred to me but seems > sound; in which case it has to be a subelement, not an attribute. But once > again, I ask, in the example above, why do you need "category name"? -Tim It could be that I'm thinking too much about the underlying taxonomy model, and not about Atom, but I think they are different. The catName is about this node only, and the display name is created by navigating the rest of the taxonomy. It is pretty common to treat the two separately in display, but maybe that should be done by fetching the taxonomy and interpreting it locally. Still, I can see clients choosing to list "Water Quality" instead of "Natural Resources > Pollution > Water Pollution > Water Quality" (example from http://search.state.mn.us/). wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect Verity Ultraseek From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 15:28:40 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA24089 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:28:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAKHBR7080472; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:17:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAAKHB3N080471; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:17:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAKHAhM080450 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:17:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAKHCNH025667 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 13:17:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe7 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6Z004NGCCOA7@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 13:17:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.17] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6Z005GICCNYC@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 13:17:12 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:17:14 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted In-reply-to: <00DBB4C94C1EF6A66694ACB7@diva.verity.com> To: Walter Underwood Cc: "'Atom WG'" Message-id: <82F1D687-3355-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1f2ed5cd041109112237fb3449@mail.gmail.com> <20041109195454.63672.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> <1f2ed5cd041109120954fc850a@mail.gmail.com> <9C657D17C02E50F831E71CFC@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> <45E2EE88-32DB-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <18B0CF7DD4BD0287DCFFCE57@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> <69DD6ABF-333C-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <79C9EC8A538D11047452E844@diva.verity.com> <7BCB48BC-3345-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <00DBB4C94C1EF6A66694ACB7@diva.verity.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 10, 2004, at 11:20 AM, Walter Underwood wrote: > It is pretty common to treat the two separately in display, but maybe > that should be done by fetching the taxonomy and interpreting it > locally. > > Still, I can see clients choosing to list "Water Quality" instead of > "Natural Resources > Pollution > Water Pollution > Water Quality" > (example from http://search.state.mn.us/). In the interests of simplicity, could you live with PaceCategoryRevised, which provides "scheme", "term", and "label"? BTW, I think that the atom format is just going to have to have something for category, if only because it seems to be a first-class citizen on the protocol side. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 16:41:42 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA07991 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:41:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAALUZJ9011573; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 13:30:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAALUZVd011572; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 13:30:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAALUYY9011339 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 13:30:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (203.30.247.2) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:30:07 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:30:04 +1100 Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <79C9EC8A538D11047452E844@diva.verity.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 11/11/04 5:01 AM, "Walter Underwood" wrote: > And then there is the mutiple path issue. Here is a made-up taxonomy > to demonstrate that. > > taxonomy ID: US Political Stuff > category ID: jashcroft1 > category name: John Ashcroft > display name: People | Politicians | Retired | John Ashcroft > display name: Political Parties | Republican | People | John Ashcroft > display name: Presidential Administrations | George W. Bush | Cabinet | John > Ashcroft gah! Here we have a mixing of categories and topics, two quite different things. The topic is John Ashcroft, which can be found in multiple categories, in this case multiple categories which are defined to contain only one person each (a little strange). e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 17:16:13 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA11018 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:16:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAM9jj4029168; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:09:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAAM9jL7029166; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:09:45 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from picanmix.dev.day.com (bsl-rtr.day.com [212.249.34.130]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAM9hE1029032 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:09:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fielding@gbiv.com) Received: from eu-mail.day.com (eu-mail.dev.day.com [10.0.0.30]) by picanmix.dev.day.com (DAY) with ESMTP id iAAM9Yh19309; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 23:09:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from [10.2.8.58] ([10.2.8.58]) by eu-mail.day.com (Lotus Domino Release 5.0.8) with ESMTP id 2004111023093304:10187 ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 23:09:33 +0100 In-Reply-To: References: <397DC9A2-32D2-11D9-A4C0-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <710CC2B8-32F1-11D9-8275-000393753936@gbiv.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Message-Id: <32732F89-3365-11D9-8275-000393753936@gbiv.com> Cc: Atom WG From: "Roy T. Fielding" Subject: Re: Revised PaceFieldingLinks Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:09:31 -0800 To: Graham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on eu-mail/Day(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at 11/10/2004 11:09:33 PM, Serialize by Router on eu-mail/Day(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at 11/10/2004 11:09:34 PM, Serialize complete at 11/10/2004 11:09:34 PM Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Nov 10, 2004, at 4:34 AM, Graham wrote: > On 10 Nov 2004, at 8:20 am, Roy T. Fielding wrote: > >> Because that is what the proposal formerly said, before it was >> simplified >> by removing that feature. > > How is it a simplification? Let's code it (in Cocoa): Do you seriously expect me to evaluate simplicity based on whether or not a system library function already exists in Cocoa? > Either: > NSURL *baseURL=[NSURL > URLWithString:@"http://www.iana.org/assignments/relation/"]; > NSURL *relationURL=[NSURL URLWithString:rel baseURL:baseURL]; > > vs > > NSURL *relationURL; > if ([rel rangeOfString:@":"].location==NSNotFound) { > relURL=[NSURL > URLWithString:[@"http://www.iana.org/assignments/relation/" > stringByAppendingString:rel]]; > } else { > relURL=[NSURL URLWithString:rel]; > } Or you could just use the first one for both. Given that the base URI is slash-terminated, the result will be the same. Alternatively, I could just ask the Cocoa developers to add a catURI(base, rel) function if LOC is an issue. > OK, I get that there aren't any valid relative URI refs that aren't > part of the registry, so I get your motivation for the change. It > doesn't actually lead to a simplification of the spec or the code in > any language that has URL classes. It does in any code that is smart enough to just treat them as strings. Just because you have URL classes doesn't mean you have to use them. ....Roy From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 17:32:50 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA12443 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:32:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAM3Td7026514; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:03:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAAM3TrC026513; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:03:29 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.143.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAM3SnA026474 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:03:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE4C3D7 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:03:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.150.112] (diva.verity.com [192.168.150.112]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id iAAM3SKB020097 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:03:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:11:08 -0800 From: Walter Underwood To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted Message-ID: <145E05FB735704C81829FDC4@diva.verity.com> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On Thursday, November 11, 2004 08:30:04 AM +1100 Eric Scheid wrote: > > Here we have a mixing of categories and topics, two quite different things. > The topic is John Ashcroft, which can be found in multiple categories, in > this case multiple categories which are defined to contain only one person > each (a little strange). I'm not sure I understand your usage of the words "category" and "topic". In this case "John Ashcroft" is a subject heading for entries about John Ashcroft -- news articles, bios, speeches, rants, whatever. This is not a categorization of a person object representing John Ashcroft. Sorry if that was confusing. This is like the Library of Congress Subject Heading "Lincoln, Abraham, 1809-1865" (there is more than one Abraham Lincoln). wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect Verity Ultraseek From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 18:24:13 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA17444 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 18:24:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAANGT7l055304; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:16:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAANGTDZ055303; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:16:29 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAANGSkQ055297 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:16:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAANGXNH006359 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:16:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6Z00JHFKNK17@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:16:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.17] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6Z00D9WKNKJS@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:16:32 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:16:37 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Atom namespace name To: "'Atom WG'" Message-id: <91F1F426-336E-11D9-B4AC-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I've been talking with Scott Hollenbeck, our IETF area director, about IETF standard practice for namespace names, and he said: The closest thing we have to a guideline is described in RFC 3688. I'd recommend following the URN structure described in that document, but that leaves some freedom for the string used to identify the namespace. Something like "atom-1.0" could work, but I'm open to suggestions. You can see the list of namespaces that have already been registered here: http://www.iana.org/assignments/xml-registry/ns.html This would give us a namespace name something like "urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:atom" which is OK I guess. I said that I liked HTTP URIs for namespace names because they leave open the door for putting some helpful info there and for things like RDDL. Furthermore, in RFC3470, which Scott co-wrote, section 4.9 agrees with me. So do sections 3.5 and 4.5.4 of the W3C's "Architecture of the World Wide Web". Scott acknowledged this, but told me that if we go with the RFC3688 flow, there will be no fuss, no muss, and we'll get our namespace name smoothly and quickly. If we wanted to stand on principle for an HTTP name, we'd have to explain why to a whole bunch of people, and then there's the problem that the IETF doesn't maintain web space for this kind of thing, so maybe it should be in www.iana.org; anyhow, lots of extra work. So... what's the sentiment of the WG? -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 18:26:07 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA17620 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 18:26:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAN4fun050648; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:04:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAAN4ehm050647; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:04:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAN4dDe050625 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:04:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAAN4iNH029662 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:04:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6Z00JLLK3W17@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:04:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.17] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6Z00D3BK3VDP@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:04:44 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:04:47 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Published extensibility Paces To: "'Atom WG'" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I had a talk about Atom and extensibility with Dave Orchard this morning, and he convinced me that there is benefit in a must-understand facility, but then educated me as to how complex it can be to implement. Based on that discussion, I have just published PaceMustUnderstandElement and PaceExtendingAtom. Note that the WG could reject PaceMustUnderstandElement and I think that PaceExtendingAtom would still work. For convenience: http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceMustUnderstandElement http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceExtendingAtom -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 18:52:58 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA19689 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 18:52:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAANgBSp063831; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:42:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAANgBMp063830; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:42:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail04.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail04.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iAANgARj063801 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:42:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 98836 messnum 5044255 invoked from network[83.70.255.40/83-70-255-40.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 10 Nov 2004 23:42:09 -0000 Received: from 83-70-255-40.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?192.168.123.143?) (83.70.255.40) by mail04.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 98836) with SMTP; 10 Nov 2004 23:42:09 -0000 Message-ID: <4192A747.3010506@dehora.net> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 23:41:59 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8a1) Gecko/20040520 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'Atom WG'" Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceExtendingAtom +1 to PaceExtendingAtom. These comments are mostly editorial. "9.2 Extensions To the Atom Vocabulary Future versions of this specification may add new elements and attributes to the Atom markup vocabulary." The term 'vocabulary' should be defined in parens somewhere - I assume it implies all the names in a given namespace... ? Please change, "Software written to conform to this version of the specification will not be able to process such markup correctly and, in fact, will not be able to distinguish it from a markup error" above, to, "Software written to conform to this version of the specification will not be able to process such markup correctly and might not be able to distinguish it from a markup error" I'm pretty sure I can write code to not treat 'foreign elements' as markup errors in the absence of ver/ext policies. The current text overstates the case. Anyway, the last sentence below, "9.3 Software Processing of Foreign Markup Software processing an Atom Document which encounters foreign markup in a location that is legal according to this specification MUST NOT stop processing or signal an error. It may be the case that the software is able to process the foreign markup correctly and does so. Otherwise, such markup is termed "unknown foreign markup" contradicts the "will not be able to distinguish it from a markup error" assertion. Otherwise, I don't see a need to distinguish 'foreign markup' and 'unknown foreign markup'. It's overcomplicated - either you spec to allow new stuff to pass at certain points or you spec to fail if new stuff attempts to pass. Speccing to allow stuff to pass where it couldn't pass before implies a new vocabulary. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 18:53:56 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA19734 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 18:53:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAANl8Fl066689; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:47:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAANl8al066688; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:47:08 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAANl7Lb066652 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:47:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danbri@w3.org) Received: by homer.w3.org (Postfix, from userid 13522) id A8AE44F0B9; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 18:47:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 18:47:10 -0500 From: Dan Brickley To: Tim Bray Cc: "'Atom WG'" Subject: Re: Atom namespace name Message-ID: <20041110234710.GA30456@homer.w3.org> References: <91F1F426-336E-11D9-B4AC-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <91F1F426-336E-11D9-B4AC-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * Tim Bray [2004-11-10 15:16-0800] > > I've been talking with Scott Hollenbeck, our IETF area director, about > IETF standard practice for namespace names, and he said: > > > The closest thing we have to a guideline is described in RFC 3688. I'd > recommend following the URN structure described in that document, but > that > leaves some freedom for the string used to identify the namespace. > Something like "atom-1.0" could work, but I'm open to suggestions. > > You can see the list of namespaces that have already been registered > here: > > http://www.iana.org/assignments/xml-registry/ns.html > > > This would give us a namespace name something like > "urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:atom" which is OK I guess. I said that I liked > HTTP URIs for namespace names because they leave open the door for > putting some helpful info there and for things like RDDL. Furthermore, > in RFC3470, which Scott co-wrote, section 4.9 agrees with me. So do > sections 3.5 and 4.5.4 of the W3C's "Architecture of the World Wide > Web". > > Scott acknowledged this, but told me that if we go with the RFC3688 > flow, there will be no fuss, no muss, and we'll get our namespace name > smoothly and quickly. If we wanted to stand on principle for an HTTP > name, we'd have to explain why to a whole bunch of people, and then > there's the problem that the IETF doesn't maintain web space for this > kind of thing, so maybe it should be in www.iana.org; anyhow, lots of > extra work. > > So... what's the sentiment of the WG? In the absence of a widely deployed mechanism for getting from urn:* names to information about the things those URIs name, I'd much prefer use of http://* names. But my preferences there tend to be from the RDF world, where I've a better idea what to do with runtime-discovered namespace info. Perhaps not such a big deal for XML-syntax oriented formats? Dan From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 18:58:02 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA19898 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 18:58:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAANpSsJ068620; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:51:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAANpS2E068619; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:51:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail12.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail12.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.28]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iAANpRUt068555 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:51:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 67581 messnum 6482451 invoked from network[83.70.255.40/83-70-255-40.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 10 Nov 2004 23:51:27 -0000 Received: from 83-70-255-40.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?192.168.123.143?) (83.70.255.40) by mail12.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 67581) with SMTP; 10 Nov 2004 23:51:27 -0000 Message-ID: <4192A974.3040705@dehora.net> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 23:51:16 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8a1) Gecko/20040520 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'Atom WG'" Subject: Re: Atom namespace name References: <91F1F426-336E-11D9-B4AC-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <91F1F426-336E-11D9-B4AC-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > This would give us a namespace name something like > "urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:atom" which is OK I guess. I said that I liked > HTTP URIs for namespace names because they leave open the door for > putting some helpful info there and for things like RDDL. So do I. But I could live with something like @rddl as well. > So... what's the sentiment of the WG? -Tim Use the IETF way. Add an attribute on the root that contains a PURL for the docco. Having people waffle on one more time about what's behind a namespace will not be conducive to getting things done. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 19:02:48 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA20248 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 19:02:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAANtFPw070037; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:55:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAANtF5Z070036; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:55:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAANtEj3069995 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:55:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CS2Iy-0005kJ-SN; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 23:55:13 +0000 Message-ID: <4192AA61.3050602@franklinmint.fm> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 18:55:13 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Bray CC: "'Atom WG'" Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceExtendingAtom I'm having a hard time parsing the requirements on markup appearing somewhere not mentioned by the spec. For example, markup from future versions of Atom could appear in atom:feed, but would be indistinguishable from foreign markup to an Atom 1.0 processor. The spec doesn't say anything about processor behavior when foreign markup is encountered in an "illegal" location. Could we say something like the following? "When foreign markup is encountered in another location, software behavior is undefined." It's ok to halt and catch fire, ok to do something with it, ok to ignore it, and ok to preserve it. Also, would a signed feed require a DSig element in atom:feed? Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 19:16:47 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA20910 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 19:16:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAB08pEA075257; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:08:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAB08pEq075251; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:08:51 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAB08o8a075244 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:08:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAB08tui018842 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:08:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe7 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6Z0006UN2VB3@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:08:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.17] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6Z0056RN2UYC@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:08:55 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:08:59 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces In-reply-to: <4192AA61.3050602@franklinmint.fm> To: Robert Sayre Cc: "'Atom WG'" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <4192AA61.3050602@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 10, 2004, at 3:55 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: >> http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceExtendingAtom > > I'm having a hard time parsing the requirements on markup appearing > somewhere not mentioned by the spec. For example, markup from future > versions of Atom could appear in atom:feed, but would be > indistinguishable from foreign markup to an Atom 1.0 processor. The > spec doesn't say anything about processor behavior when foreign markup > is encountered in an "illegal" location. Could we say something like > the following? > > "When foreign markup is encountered in another location, software > behavior is undefined." I'm OK with that, but do note that the proposed section 9.2 says that unrecognized atom stuff may appear anywhere. But if I encounter a element that's weirdly non-empty and contains markup from some other namespace, that's the kind of situation you're talking about. I think it would be OK to leave behavior undefined as you say. > It's ok to halt and catch fire, ok to do something with it, ok to > ignore it, and ok to preserve it. > > Also, would a signed feed require a DSig element in atom:feed? Yep. But I think we already covered that, right? -T From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 19:18:16 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA21008 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 19:18:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAB0Aqn0075729; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:10:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAB0AqNr075728; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:10:52 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAB0Ap9v075674 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:10:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from quark (58.80-202-95.nextgentel.com [80.202.95.58]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0170F3BFF; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 01:11:34 +0100 (MET) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 01:12:16 +0100 To: "Tim Bray" Subject: Re: Atom namespace name Cc: Atom-Syntax References: <91F1F426-336E-11D9-B4AC-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <91F1F426-336E-11D9-B4AC-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:16:37 -0800, Tim Bray wrote: > So... what's the sentiment of the WG? -Tim Although it might be a lot of fuzz (I don't understand why, but nonetheless..), I think we shuld strive to have an HTTP-based namespace URI for just the same reasons you enumerated. Having the namespace URI point to an informational, human-readable HTML page is imho extremely important for Atom if we want it to be «newbie» and «View Source Clan» friendly. If we want it to be by techies for techies, any URI scheme will do the job. What domain and space the HTTP URI points to is not very important, imho. purl.org has been used in examples and such, but anything would do it for me. Speaking of which: why can't IETF host this informational page, such as 'http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml'? -- Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- asbjornu@hotmail.com «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 19:33:33 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA23067 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 19:33:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAB0RZtF083360; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:27:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAB0RZbm083359; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:27:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAB0RYxK083344 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:27:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CS2oM-0007Un-Lx; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 00:27:38 +0000 Message-ID: <4192B1F8.6000100@franklinmint.fm> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 19:27:36 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Bray CC: "'Atom WG'" Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces References: <4192AA61.3050602@franklinmint.fm> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > > On Nov 10, 2004, at 3:55 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: >> >> Also, would a signed feed require a DSig element in atom:feed? > > > Yep. But I think we already covered that, right? -T > Yes. I had wrongly conflated the Atom namespace with "Atom's XML markup vocabulary." Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 20:06:32 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA25733 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 20:06:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAB0vsG2095288; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:57:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAB0vsbk095287; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:57:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.verisignlabs.com (cliffie.verisignlabs.com [65.201.175.9]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAB0vnUj095195 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:57:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sah@428cobrajet.net) Received: from dul1shollenbl1 ([::ffff:130.129.135.145]) (AUTH: LOGIN shollenb, SSL: TLSv1/SSLv3,128bits,RC4-MD5) by mail.verisignlabs.com with esmtp; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 19:57:42 -0500 id 005400A2.4192B906.00002268 From: "Scott Hollenbeck" To: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?'Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg'?=" Cc: "'Atom-Syntax'" Subject: RE: Atom namespace name Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 19:57:51 -0500 Message-ID: <7468147AEE316B41B3B55152959CE2181291F9@dul1wnexm05.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-reply-to: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iAB0vrUj095282 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > -----Original Message----- > From: Asbjørn Ulsberg [mailto:asbjorn@tigerstaden.no] > Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 7:12 PM > To: Tim Bray > Cc: Atom-Syntax > Subject: Re: Atom namespace name [snip] > Having the namespace URI point to an informational, > human-readable HTML > page is imho extremely important for Atom if we want it to be > «newbie» and > «View Source Clan» friendly. If we want it to be by techies > for techies, > any URI scheme will do the job. The reason that this sort of reference has been a problem for the IETF is that it's not a stable part of the standard. The content can change over time, with no community control. Plus, the primary purpose of the URI in this context is to uniquely identify a namespace -- and no more per recent IETF practice. I know that some view the ability to dereference a URL as one of the strengths of the http URL approach. I can guarantee, though, that it will raise issues that we really don't need to get involved with when it comes time for broad review of the specifications. As I told Tim in our off-list conversation, I'm not going to argue that the working group can't use http URLs to identify namespaces. You're just going to have to come up with a VERY compelling reason for their use -- and the argument that they can be used to provide a pointer to additional information is probably NOT the one you want to use for just the reasons I provided above. -Scott- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 20:26:55 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA28019 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 20:26:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAB1IF5W006291; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:18:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAB1IFIB006290; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:18:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAB1IEcl006246 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:18:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAB1IKui019470 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 18:18:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe7 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6Z00LOJQAJLL@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 18:18:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.17] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I6Z0081LQAI7C@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 18:18:19 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:18:22 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces In-reply-to: <4192A747.3010506@dehora.net> To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= Cc: "'Atom WG'" Message-id: <948394E0-337F-11D9-B4AC-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed References: <4192A747.3010506@dehora.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iAB1IFcl006269 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Nov 10, 2004, at 3:41 PM, Bill de hÓra wrote: > "9.2 Extensions To the Atom Vocabulary > > Future versions of this specification may add new elements and > attributes to the Atom markup vocabulary." > > The term 'vocabulary' should be defined in parens somewhere - I assume > it implies all the names in a given namespace... ? It's formally defined in the intro to the Namespaces rec... probably should have a reference to that. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 20:27:12 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA28048 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 20:27:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAB1K0tR007178; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:20:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAB1K0hJ007176; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:20:00 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk ([161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAB1Jx0X006885 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:20:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iAB1IOLo001891; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 01:18:35 GMT In-Reply-To: <32732F89-3365-11D9-8275-000393753936@gbiv.com> References: <397DC9A2-32D2-11D9-A4C0-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <710CC2B8-32F1-11D9-8275-000393753936@gbiv.com> <32732F89-3365-11D9-8275-000393753936@gbiv.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-5--577864002; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <950E7032-337F-11D9-A4C0-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Cc: Atom WG From: Graham Subject: Re: Revised PaceFieldingLinks Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 01:18:23 +0000 To: "Roy T. Fielding" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-5--577864002 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10 Nov 2004, at 10:09 pm, Roy T. Fielding wrote: > > On Nov 10, 2004, at 4:34 AM, Graham wrote: >> On 10 Nov 2004, at 8:20 am, Roy T. Fielding wrote: >> >>> Because that is what the proposal formerly said, before it was >>> simplified >>> by removing that feature. >> >> How is it a simplification? Let's code it (in Cocoa): > > Do you seriously expect me to evaluate simplicity based on whether > or not a system library function already exists in Cocoa? My point is that before the simplifcation, it was possible to get to the final relation-URI with a single function call that surely exists in every URI-aware system library. Very elegant. > >> Either: >> NSURL *baseURL=[NSURL >> URLWithString:@"http://www.iana.org/assignments/relation/"]; >> NSURL *relationURL=[NSURL URLWithString:rel baseURL:baseURL]; >> >> vs >> >> NSURL *relationURL; >> if ([rel rangeOfString:@":"].location==NSNotFound) { >> relURL=[NSURL >> URLWithString:[@"http://www.iana.org/assignments/relation/" >> stringByAppendingString:rel]]; >> } else { >> relURL=[NSURL URLWithString:rel]; >> } > > Or you could just use the first one for both. No you can't. The proposal allows for relation names to be registered that include dots and slashes. If one of those were treated as relative URI it would come up with a different result to appending. >> OK, I get that there aren't any valid relative URI refs that aren't >> part of the registry, so I get your motivation for the change. It >> doesn't actually lead to a simplification of the spec or the code in >> any language that has URL classes. > > It does in any code that is smart enough to just treat them as strings. > Just because you have URL classes doesn't mean you have to use them. Since the proposal doesn't say what comparison method should be used (a big omission btw), deferring to the URI class and it's isEqual: method seems the only prudent thing to do. Graham --Apple-Mail-5--577864002 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMTExMDExODI0WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUTwRvxjCGwbh1HjrBZJEBW17Y y0cweAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEAZ5VdkXIJ/rIGacW38Od4fl90 FUM8a6SKgzE4ifZOMgQEhBGBabVHSez/uBl0gr6l1t0QMm8VNunWuE+blACwZSnpyU5DD6Khr8cC +VLV8Gb9bxW9+euB9I7P2DYelyFea8rt8vDEMPLI5iXqOYl5q39QpwOmXobOm9KbtnblPJe0PRB0 E2UgX/hY7FcqVJ4c5DhwKBdcp0yqaCCJFW0sD+Y4etaCPr+utBj+AHNpIGrpGfCdyLHpsym1wPoh Q8J2OrvKQe2mVJryEMOO3LKDgTgDrBEi3FZcus+WgKMnrGrtA3PWIC4N8ocnVGPmYvR82SXQ9bd9 nMSxSjkisYIQLAAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-5--577864002-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 20:43:42 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA29604 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 20:43:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAB1ZsKh013676; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:35:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAB1ZsvI013673; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:35:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [130.129.134.108] ([130.129.67.81]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAB1ZoNb013639; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:35:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <91F1F426-336E-11D9-B4AC-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> References: <91F1F426-336E-11D9-B4AC-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 20:36:05 -0500 To: Tim Bray , "'Atom WG'" From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: Atom namespace name Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At 3:16 PM -0800 11/10/04, Tim Bray wrote: >I've been talking with Scott Hollenbeck, our IETF area director, >about IETF standard practice for namespace names, and he said: > > >The closest thing we have to a guideline is described in RFC 3688. I'd >recommend following the URN structure described in that document, but that >leaves some freedom for the string used to identify the namespace. >Something like "atom-1.0" could work, but I'm open to suggestions. > >You can see the list of namespaces that have already been registered here: > >http://www.iana.org/assignments/xml-registry/ns.html > > >This would give us a namespace name something like >"urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:atom" which is OK I guess. I said that I >liked HTTP URIs for namespace names because they leave open the door >for putting some helpful info there and for things like RDDL. >Furthermore, in RFC3470, which Scott co-wrote, section 4.9 agrees >with me. So do sections 3.5 and 4.5.4 of the W3C's "Architecture >of the World Wide Web". > >Scott acknowledged this, but told me that if we go with the RFC3688 >flow, there will be no fuss, no muss, and we'll get our namespace >name smoothly and quickly. If we wanted to stand on principle for >an HTTP name, we'd have to explain why to a whole bunch of people, >and then there's the problem that the IETF doesn't maintain web >space for this kind of thing, so maybe it should be in www.iana.org; >anyhow, lots of extra work. > >So... what's the sentiment of the WG? -Tim Wearing my "IETF weenie co-chair" hat, I think we're fine asking for a URL instead of a URN. Both RFCs are also BCPs, and (distressingly) the latter RFC doesn't even mention the former one. Given two equal-level BCPs, we are under no pressure to accept the more recent one. I see no technical reason for us to have a namespace listed in the IANA registry, but am open to hear differently. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 20:47:54 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA29939 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 20:47:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAB1frS1016000; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:41:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAB1frtp015999; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:41:53 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [130.129.134.108] ([130.129.67.81]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAB1fpta015975 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:41:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <7468147AEE316B41B3B55152959CE2181291F9@dul1wnexm05.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com> References: <7468147AEE316B41B3B55152959CE2181291F9@dul1wnexm05.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 20:42:06 -0500 To: Atom WG From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: RE: Atom namespace name Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: [[ Whoops; I saw Scott's message after I sent mine ]] At 7:57 PM -0500 11/10/04, Scott Hollenbeck wrote: >The reason that this sort of reference has been a problem for the IETF is >that it's not a stable part of the standard. The content can change over >time, with no community control. Some people here consider that a feature, not a problem. :-) > Plus, the primary purpose of the URI in >this context is to uniquely identify a namespace -- and no more per recent >IETF practice. Not sure how to parse that. >I know that some view the ability to dereference a URL as one of the >strengths of the http URL approach. I can guarantee, though, that it will >raise issues that we really don't need to get involved with when it comes >time for broad review of the specifications. As I told Tim in our off-list >conversation, I'm not going to argue that the working group can't use http >URLs to identify namespaces. You're just going to have to come up with a >VERY compelling reason for their use -- and the argument that they can be >used to provide a pointer to additional information is probably NOT the one >you want to use for just the reasons I provided above. Well, so far we haven't found other "very compelling" reasons. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 21:19:34 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA02169 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 21:19:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAB29HO0030164; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 18:09:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAB29HXX030163; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 18:09:17 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAB29GVf030155 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 18:09:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from duerst@w3.org) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA0E24F053; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 21:09:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20041111094958.05b82ec0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:01:22 +0900 To: Asbj=?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCj1MbKEI=?=n Ulsberg , "Tim Bray" From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: Atom namespace name Cc: Atom-Syntax In-Reply-To: References: <91F1F426-336E-11D9-B4AC-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 09:12 04/11/11, Asbj$BS(Bn Ulsberg wrote: > >On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:16:37 -0800, Tim Bray wrote: > >> So... what's the sentiment of the WG? -Tim > >Although it might be a lot of fuzz (I don't understand why, but >nonetheless..), I think we shuld strive to have an HTTP-based namespace >URI for just the same reasons you enumerated. > >Having the namespace URI point to an informational, human-readable HTML >page is imho extremely important for Atom if we want it to be 'newbie' and >'View Source Clan' friendly. If we want it to be by techies for techies, >any URI scheme will do the job. I agree. >What domain and space the HTTP URI points to is not very important, imho. >purl.org has been used in examples and such, but anything would do it for >me. Yes. Something at IANA would do, too. Please note that we are already asking IANA to permanently commit to a specific (base) URI for the linking registry (PaceFieldingLinks). Regards, Martin. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 22:24:09 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA07534 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 22:24:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAB3D7LV060288; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 19:13:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAB3D7Bg060285; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 19:13:07 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAB3D6KF060221 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 19:13:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from quark (58.80-202-95.nextgentel.com [80.202.95.58]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 549BC156C; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 04:13:57 +0100 (MET) To: "Danny Ayers" , "Tim Bray" Cc: "Atom WG" Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #12 References: <84DE3206-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <1f2ed5cd04110815585b921983@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 04:14:38 +0100 In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd04110815585b921983@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 00:58:28 +0100, Danny Ayers wrote: >> PaceDateModified: No consensus. Close it. > > No consensus to reject it either. Doesn't that mean it should go back > on the revisit list? I think so, at least. -- Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- asbjornu@hotmail.com «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 22:26:54 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA07738 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 22:26:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAB3KiSJ063307; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 19:20:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAB3KiW0063306; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 19:20:44 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAB3Khuo063288 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 19:20:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from quark (58.80-202-95.nextgentel.com [80.202.95.58]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAE9919FF; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 04:21:34 +0100 (MET) To: "Sascha Carlin" Cc: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat References: <20041108224420.32103.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> <418FFFDF.8050506@itst.net> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 04:22:16 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <418FFFDF.8050506@itst.net> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 00:23:11 +0100, Sascha Carlin wrote: >> So far Atom is a less featureful version of RSS 2.0. > > As a bystander, throwing in only some words at a time, I have the > feeling that many good ideas and features got kicked out because there > is no _current_ usage. That's my impression as well. There's definately some disagreement within the WG regarding what Atom should be. Someone seems to think it should only be a better specified RSS 2.0 while someone actually wants to break some new ground and have the format bring something fresh (but useful) to the world of syndication. If the only reason we can whip at implementors for deploying Atom is «It's standardized. It has its very own RFC number and all!», I don't think everyone will do it as quick as we would hope. > Of course Atom now is more or less stable enough and could replace RSS > and its many brothers and sisters. But, as Dare states it, there is no > benefit to it. Exactly. > Well, this is more of a political discussion than a technical question, > but is is worthwhile to think about it. What do we want to achieve and > what do we provide for the future? Yeah, I know, there is the charter > answering these questions, but beside the charter there is a emotional > side, too, ain't it? I agree. -- Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- asbjornu@hotmail.com «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 10 22:55:30 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA10296 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 22:55:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAB3mFH8066891; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 19:48:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAB3mF2E066890; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 19:48:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.196]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAB3mE2B066866 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 19:48:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id g11so111682rne for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 19:48:19 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=ZSkHK5+x1PS/PrqszE1QJDQHJiiNP031lYl2nuvRUWVl/Yso1ARrZrroObEgU9OAM7vlzAcIsr6mfKIz9wAADIYfov7rkFdbybzOyxoxBn7EqxK5eKSi9NNObRcabCstTPCHDIf7LjRz1S60ghc38pJZB10QvWeFZNxSJXW7B+w= Received: by 10.38.68.47 with SMTP id q47mr573391rna; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 19:48:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.151.28 with HTTP; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 19:48:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3f1451f504111019483c4fc886@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 22:48:18 -0500 From: Joe Gregorio Reply-To: Joe Gregorio To: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:04:47 -0800, Tim Bray wrote: > > I had a talk about Atom and extensibility with Dave Orchard this > morning, and he convinced me that there is benefit in a must-understand > facility, but then educated me as to how complex it can be to > implement. > > Based on that discussion, I have just published > PaceMustUnderstandElement and PaceExtendingAtom. Note that the WG > could reject PaceMustUnderstandElement and I think that > PaceExtendingAtom would still work. -1 on PaceMustUnderstandElement, for the following reasons: 1. There is a mustUnderstand feature in SOAP and has proved of no value. You may attribute that to there being very few compliant implementations in SOAP, but that only leads me to my next point: 2. This is added complexity to the format that few, if any, developers will implement. As you report Dave Orchard said, this is complex to implement. 3. The Pace, as written, doesn't specify any concrete benefit. There is only theoretical benefit. What situation, current or in the past, in syndication formats, would a mustUnderstand element have helped? -joe -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 05:40:28 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA23757 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:40:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABA9iRU009412; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 02:09:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABA9iVA009411; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 02:09:44 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABA9f8T009369 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 02:09:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 43473 invoked by uid 17064); 11 Nov 2004 10:09:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.2]) ([83.112.8.34]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 11 Nov 2004 10:09:42 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces: A better proposal Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:09:37 +0100 To: Atom WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -1 on PaceExtendingAtom It looks like this would not allow the proposal I have just made that permits Atom to be extended into RDF. It is unnecessarily complex, over engineered, and even contradictory. Here is a much simpler proposal: You can extend Atom any way you want (with foreign namespaced elements), as long as the following conditions are met: 1- if all those elements are removed, you end up with a valid Atom document X 2- the meaning of the document X is not incompatible with the unabbreviated document (2) need hardly be mentioned, because it will be assumed that your document needs to be parsable by simple Atom parsers, and so it would be foolish to try to say something that most parsers would misunderstand. That seems much more simple and much clearer. Anything more requires serious justification. Henry Story On 11 Nov 2004, at 00:04, Tim Bray wrote: > > I had a talk about Atom and extensibility with Dave Orchard this > morning, and he convinced me that there is benefit in a > must-understand facility, but then educated me as to how complex it > can be to implement. > > Based on that discussion, I have just published > PaceMustUnderstandElement and PaceExtendingAtom. Note that the WG > could reject PaceMustUnderstandElement and I think that > PaceExtendingAtom would still work. > > For convenience: > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceMustUnderstandElement > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceExtendingAtom > > -Tim > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 05:41:48 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA23839 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:41:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABAI1pY015402; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 02:18:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABAI1pq015400; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 02:18:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABAI0KP015387 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 02:18:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 50193 invoked by uid 17064); 11 Nov 2004 10:18:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.2]) ([83.112.8.34]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 11 Nov 2004 10:18:01 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: References: <7468147AEE316B41B3B55152959CE2181291F9@dul1wnexm05.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: Atom namespace name Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:17:56 +0100 To: Atom WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +1 for me for using a dereference-able URL. Henry On 11 Nov 2004, at 02:42, Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: >> URLs to identify namespaces. You're just going to have to come up >> with a >> VERY compelling reason for their use -- and the argument that they >> can be >> used to provide a pointer to additional information is probably NOT >> the one >> you want to use for just the reasons I provided above. > > Well, so far we haven't found other "very compelling" reasons. > > --Paul Hoffman, Director > --Internet Mail Consortium > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 06:04:12 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA25539 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 06:04:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABAuScR032866; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 02:56:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABAuSrQ032862; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 02:56:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABAuRwi032830 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 02:56:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so344944rns for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 02:56:23 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=UGZ/RgqYDYBz1/OchkexHugq9/MEpo3OqsV3vV7ezeMtfh39wq2+avME1PRasczc23krUaai69MeV4kaH9tfs9XmSWImMJ173eqkQ1KgDD3ExSdny6Mcx0xSJEtHZ1dmudnBoMQVFCwMuN/HsPJWxcJlwrcK+0Bt4nnRx3SjvCY= Received: by 10.38.206.73 with SMTP id d73mr345916rng; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 02:56:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 02:56:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04111102561fc05ff1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:56:23 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: Atom namespace name Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <7468147AEE316B41B3B55152959CE2181291F9@dul1wnexm05.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If we can have a http: scheme URI for the base of link rel, then why not for the namespace? Personally I would prefer a http: URI for the reasons Dan mentioned. The use of these is widespread - every single namespace URI I have seen in the context of syndication follows this pattern. Is current practice compelling at all? I fail to see why the IETF might object to a http: scheme URI given their current use elsewhere, and the best current practice reflected in the WebArch doc. The benefit would be in human-discoverability of docs and machine discoverability of schemas by dereferencing the URI with HTTP. I note in passing that RFC 2396bis says: [[ Future specifications and related documentation should use the general term "URI", rather than the more restrictive terms URL and URN. ]] Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 06:23:28 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA26753 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 06:23:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABBE4q5041103; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 03:14:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABBE47W041102; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 03:14:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail12.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail12.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.28]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iABBE2ms041054 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 03:14:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 71395 messnum 6479180 invoked from network[62.77.172.85/62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net]); 11 Nov 2004 11:13:58 -0000 Received: from 62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net (HELO ?200.200.200.35?) (62.77.172.85) by mail12.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 71395) with SMTP; 11 Nov 2004 11:13:58 -0000 Message-ID: <4193496C.3010602@dehora.net> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:13:48 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8a1) Gecko/20040520 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom WG Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces: A better proposal References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henry Story wrote: > (2) need hardly be mentioned, because it will be assumed that your > document needs to be parsable by simple Atom parsers, and so it would be > foolish to try to say something that most parsers would misunderstand. > > That seems much more simple and much clearer. No it doesn't. I have no idea what is meant by 2. > Anything more requires serious justification. I see nothing here to back that claim up. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 06:42:19 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA28786 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 06:42:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABBYwZs056306; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 03:34:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABBYwXr056305; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 03:34:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABBYw44056289; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 03:34:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danbri@w3.org) Received: by homer.w3.org (Postfix, from userid 13522) id C6CDF4EF81; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 06:34:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 06:34:58 -0500 From: Dan Brickley To: Danny Ayers Cc: Paul Hoffman / IMC , Atom WG Subject: Re: Atom namespace name Message-ID: <20041111113458.GC17966@homer.w3.org> References: <7468147AEE316B41B3B55152959CE2181291F9@dul1wnexm05.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com> <1f2ed5cd04111102561fc05ff1@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd04111102561fc05ff1@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * Danny Ayers [2004-11-11 11:56+0100] > > If we can have a http: scheme URI for the base of link rel, then why > not for the namespace? > > Personally I would prefer a http: URI for the reasons Dan mentioned. > The use of these is widespread - every single namespace URI I have > seen in the context of syndication follows this pattern. Is current > practice compelling at all? On the extensibility front, there has been occasional mention here of possibility for transforming (by XSLT, or even XQuery) from Atom's format into RDF/XML. W3C has a Note on one technique for doing so, called GRDDL, which makes use of metadata about namespaces to figure out which XSLT-defined mappings are appropriate to get RDF/XML from some instance data. http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/NOTE-grddl-20040413/ http://www.w3.org/2003/g/data-view esp. http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/NOTE-grddl-20040413/#ns-bind I believe there's an implementation that consults namespace docs for this info 'while you wait', though to be fair I couldn't find it just now. So the motivating scenario is that the AtomPub WG could make an atom2rdf.xsl available and cite it from the Atom format's namespace document in a machine-friendly way. This only becomes compelling if RDF toolkits start to acquire the ability to get their RDF via XSLT transforms, rather than just parsing RDF/XML notation. I think this is starting to happen, eg. http://people.w3.org/~dom/archives/2004/11/grddl-support-in-rap/ Most of the attention around GRDDL to date has been w.r.t. the XHTML-oriented version, but it seems to have wider potential. Dan From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 07:04:42 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA00823 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 07:04:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABBrR1m068225; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 03:53:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABBrRMu068224; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 03:53:27 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABBrOMi068196 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 03:53:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 25552 invoked by uid 17064); 11 Nov 2004 11:53:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.2]) ([83.112.8.34]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 11 Nov 2004 11:53:25 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: <4193496C.3010602@dehora.net> References: <4193496C.3010602@dehora.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: <47BABFC4-33D8-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> From: Henry Story Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces: A better proposal Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:53:19 +0100 To: Atom WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iABBrQMi068218 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > You can extend Atom any way you want (with foreign namespaced > elements), as long as the following conditions are met: > 1- if all those elements are removed, you end up with a valid Atom > document X > 2- the meaning of the document X is not incompatible with the > unabbreviated document On 11 Nov 2004, at 12:13, Bill de hÓra wrote: > > [...] I have no idea what is meant by 2. The wording of this can be improved clearly. But let me start with an example. Take the document with the following sentence: Doc 1. A. Jack has a house You can add a sentences to Doc 1 to get Doc 2 A. Jack has a house B. Jack a du travail. C. Jack est marié. B and C are in French. When you understand French you understand something more than when you understand english. But they have not said anything incompatible with Doc 1. They have just added information. B says: Jack has work and C says: Jack is married You could have stripped Doc 2 of B and C and had still had something usable. So the point is: whatever extensions you add to an Atom document, a parser that parses it as a pure Atom document cannot be misunderstanding the document. Ie: he is not liable to anything. I am sure that with a little effort we can work out how to put this in one clear crisp sentence. > > Henry Story wrote: > > >> (2) need hardly be mentioned, because it will be assumed that your >> document needs to be parsable by simple Atom parsers, and so it would >> be foolish to try to say something that most parsers would >> misunderstand. >> That seems much more simple and much clearer. > >> Anything more requires serious justification. > > I see nothing here to back that claim up. We are working on a standard where reaching consensus is the goal. Adding any type of limitation requires serious justification. I don't see any at all at present for the PaceExtendingAtom proposal. I think this is just a simple matter of methodology: don't close options you don't have to. > > cheers > Bill > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 08:54:34 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA11108 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:54:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABDhefX023205; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:43:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABDhe9D023204; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:43:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail09.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail09.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iABDhdXr023048 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:43:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 93959 messnum 2004847 invoked from network[62.77.172.85/62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net]); 11 Nov 2004 13:43:35 -0000 Received: from 62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net (HELO ?200.200.200.35?) (62.77.172.85) by mail09.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 93959) with SMTP; 11 Nov 2004 13:43:35 -0000 Message-ID: <41936C7D.6010608@dehora.net> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:43:25 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8a1) Gecko/20040520 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom WG Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces: A better proposal References: <4193496C.3010602@dehora.net> <47BABFC4-33D8-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> In-Reply-To: <47BABFC4-33D8-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Henry Story wrote: > The wording of this can be improved clearly. But let me start with an > example. Take the document with the following sentence: > > Doc 1. > A. Jack has a house > > You can add a sentences to Doc 1 to get Doc 2 > > A. Jack has a house > B. Jack a du travail. > C. Jack est marié. > > B and C are in French. When you understand French you understand > something more than when you understand english. But they have not said > anything incompatible with Doc 1. They have just added information. > > B says: Jack has work and > C says: Jack is married > > You could have stripped Doc 2 of B and C and had still had something > usable. > > So the point is: whatever extensions you add to an Atom document, a > parser that parses it as a pure Atom document cannot be misunderstanding > the document. Ie: he is not liable to anything. I find the english examples 1) not pertinent, 2) misleading*. I'm also inclined to avoid terms like "meaning", "misunderstanding", "understanding " - they're highly subjective and don't strike me as operationally useful. I still have no idea what 2 means. Anyway, this won't cater for the situation where the publisher wants to insist you do not process the document without be able to process a specified namespace. Tim's proposal does. > I am sure that with a little effort we can work out how to put this in > one clear crisp sentence. Then you should do that :) But even if you did, I doubt that you will be able to constrain things in the wild to be suitably monotonic. > We are working on a standard where reaching consensus is the goal. > Adding any type of limitation requires serious justification. I don't > see any at all at present for the PaceExtendingAtom proposal. I do. It's simpler than anything I've seen to date. cheers Bill * Atom documents are not collections of facts. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 09:40:24 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA16035 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 09:40:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABESUeH035992; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 06:28:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABESU6C035991; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 06:28:30 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABESUYI035985 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 06:28:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 53366 invoked by uid 17064); 11 Nov 2004 14:28:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.2]) ([83.112.6.185]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 11 Nov 2004 14:28:32 -0000 In-Reply-To: <41936C7D.6010608@dehora.net> References: <4193496C.3010602@dehora.net> <47BABFC4-33D8-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <41936C7D.6010608@dehora.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= From: Henry Story Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces: A better proposal Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:28:27 +0100 To: Atom WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iABESUYI035986 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 11 Nov 2004, at 14:43, Bill de hÓra wrote: > Anyway, this won't cater for the situation where the publisher wants > to insist you do not process the document without be able to process a > specified namespace. Tim's proposal does. I was speaking particularly about PaceExtendingAtom [1], and was not commenting about PaceMustUnderstandElement [2] where Tim Bray describes what you are mentioning. My proposal does not, on first glance, contradict PaceMustUnderstandElement. The problem I have with Tim's Proposal on PaceExtendingAtom is that it limits where new attributes can appear. I want them to be able to appear anywhere: in the feed, in the entries, etc... I don't see why the specification should try to limit this, other than state that since this is an Atom document, any document containing externally namespaced elements (without a MustUnderstand element) should be a monotonic extension of the stripped document. >> I am sure that with a little effort we can work out how to put this >> in one clear crisp sentence. > > Then you should do that :) But even if you did, I doubt that you will > be able to constrain things in the wild to be suitably monotonic. Thanks for "monotonic". I see you understand my proposal much better than you will admit. :-) So perhaps I should rephrase: You can extend Atom with foreign namespaced elements and attributes in any position, as long as the following conditions are met: 1- if all those foreign name spaced elements are removed from DocOrig, you end up with a valid Atom document (call it DocMin) 2- DocMin should be a well formed Atom Document as stated in this spec 3- unless a mustunderstand element is present, a parser parsing DocMin is correctly parsing DocOrig Henry [1] http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceExtendingAtom [2] http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceMustUnderstandElement From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 10:35:59 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA23313 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:35:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABFPuXe046833; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 07:25:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABFPufY046831; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 07:25:56 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABFPt0o046812; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 07:25:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from quark (58.80-202-95.nextgentel.com [80.202.95.58]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 354C4570A; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:26:42 +0100 (MET) To: "Arve Bersvendsen" Cc: Atom-Syntax , "Atom Protocol" Subject: Re: Explicit deletion of feed items? References: Message-ID: From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:27:25 +0100 In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:16:08 +0100, Arve Bersvendsen wrote: > I recently checked out my comment feeds in Bloglines, and noticed one > problem: > > The spam I take so much care to delete from my feeds remain visible in > BlogLines, and probably at a heap of other sources. Instead of forcing > aggregator services to implement spam filters, I'd rather just be able > to tell them myself by indicating that an entry is revoked. > > How could we do this? > > 2004-12-31T12:00:00Z ? Other than the exact syntax (we probably shouldn't have an 'entry' namespace), I think this is a good idea. I think it belongs more in the protocol than the format, though. -- Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- asbjornu@hotmail.com «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 11:30:52 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA28311 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:30:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABGJrUP056516; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:19:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABGJrYE056515; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:19:53 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABGJqIp056475 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:19:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <2004111116194701500cqblle>; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:19:48 +0000 Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 09:19:46 -0700 Subject: Posted PaceEntryDeletion (was Explicit deletion of feed items?) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <809AC1AC-33FD-11D9-AFD5-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A short proposal. The spec text makes it clear that "deleting" an entry might not remove it from the public record, so we won't be creating any illusions. The reasons for not putting the deletion notice inside ...which perhaps should be added to the rationale...are: 1) has required elements which would only serve to bloat a feed if included for deleted entries. 2) Deletion notices need not consume space in the "sliding window" on existing entries. 3) Separating deletions out of entries makes it possible to easily maintain a sliding window on deletions separate from the sliding window on existing entries (for example, the feed could contain the 15 most recent non-deleted entries, and the 15 most recent deletions.) Rationale Some systems cache and continue to display entries after they disappear from the "sliding window" into a feed. There is no way to tell the difference between an entry disappearing from the sliding window and an entry being deleted. In some circumstances, such as when deleting blog spam, it is highly desirable to have the entries deleted from external caches. This proposal specifies a light-weight method of explicitly indicating deletion of entries. Proposal Add the following as a child element of (not in ): "atom:deletion" Element The "atom:deletion" element indicates that an entry which previously appeared in the feed has been deleted. The content of atom:deletion is the atom:id of the deleted entry. atom:feed elements MAY contain zero or more atom:deletion elements. Publishing application MAY decline to publish atom:deletion elements. Consuming applications which cache entries MAY delete the indicated entries from their caches. If they do not, they SHOULD indicate to their consumers that the entry has been deleted by the publisher. Consuming applications MUST ignore atom:deletion elements whose content indicates the atom:id of an entry from a feed other than the containing feed. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 11:49:03 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA00357 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:49:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABGeWs0059421; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:40:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABGeW0M059420; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:40:32 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.198]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABGeV1m059405 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:40:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lavandowska@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 55so362623wri for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:40:25 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=AIHWja5hoDk80mQd6pQXJwrLBLNKIDpSOWJNVgdaxZNTPOC3JDiMExNA93pDNgv4oRgRx45S0qJcgXtpZciasoXr4qs4vTE/lE7OhexMZrZwvkYSYw+M2UeWmvD68ZQvENqhjTlXTVY8ZPwYytg3cvjN8XpzSkQVhx/1hIkB7WE= Received: by 10.54.54.78 with SMTP id c78mr338772wra; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:40:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.45.64 with HTTP; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:40:25 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <96d7d77c0411110840659cfbb1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:40:25 -0600 From: Lance Lavandowska Reply-To: Lance Lavandowska To: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: Explicit deletion of feed items? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iABGeV1m059412 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I thought the whole point was to indicate to feed readers that a particular entry was revoked/removed/deleted/whatever. Hence this discussion should stay in 'syntax' unless I misunderstand the scope of 'protocol'. Lance On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:27:25 +0100, Asbjørn Ulsberg wrote: > > On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:16:08 +0100, Arve Bersvendsen > wrote: > > > I recently checked out my comment feeds in Bloglines, and noticed one > > problem: > > > > The spam I take so much care to delete from my feeds remain visible in > > BlogLines, and probably at a heap of other sources. Instead of forcing > > aggregator services to implement spam filters, I'd rather just be able > > to tell them myself by indicating that an entry is revoked. > > > > How could we do this? > > > > 2004-12-31T12:00:00Z ? > > Other than the exact syntax (we probably shouldn't have an 'entry' > namespace), I think this is a good idea. I think it belongs more in the > protocol than the format, though. > > -- > Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- asbjornu@hotmail.com > «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 11:59:55 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA01659 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:59:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABGoUPQ060849; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:50:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABGoUf9060848; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:50:30 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABGoUgP060841 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:50:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so359802rns for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:50:29 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=ZQRO1RsWcbwqnu83uGfVFPwUp2UXOVYFRi1J4dLEsm4fSMgSJNGOeSBYM4bF/07Er34oFf9Q+FL5O5dcXAuAVdm/H4c53PG6zddT4wLAIYKyJKP7odutXwXgvsOQca9h/WwFRgLF5Klqw1sjs2fVDnyVgVkdOPB8rIz3BhoKOHw= Received: by 10.38.206.26 with SMTP id d26mr273241rng; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:50:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04111108505806f13e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:50:29 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Posted PaceEntryDeletion (was Explicit deletion of feed items?) Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <809AC1AC-33FD-11D9-AFD5-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <809AC1AC-33FD-11D9-AFD5-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Pace looks good, but just a thought - back in the PaceOptionalAlternateLink discussion, Sam asked: > Is there a use case for syndication where the content is neither > included nor referenced? Empty content and summary could be used to signify that an entry was no more. I honestly don't know if this would be a good idea, usually it seems to be better to be as explicit as possible about such things. But it would mean one less element to contend with. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 12:35:56 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA05808 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:35:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABHROT6068774; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 09:27:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABHROXn068773; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 09:27:24 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ixion.tartarus.org (ixion.tartarus.org [195.149.39.210]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABHRN7U068737 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 09:27:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from james@ixion.tartarus.org) Received: from james by ixion.tartarus.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) for atom-syntax@imc.org id 1CSIj9-0006Zy-00; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:27:19 +0000 Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:27:19 +0000 From: James Aylett To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Posted PaceEntryDeletion (was Explicit deletion of feed items?) Message-ID: <20041111172719.GU14256@tartarus.org> Mail-Followup-To: James Aylett , atom-syntax@imc.org References: <809AC1AC-33FD-11D9-AFD5-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <1f2ed5cd04111108505806f13e@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd04111108505806f13e@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Thu, Nov 11, 2004 at 05:50:29PM +0100, Danny Ayers wrote: > Empty content and summary could be used to signify that an entry was > no more. I honestly don't know if this would be a good idea, usually > it seems to be better to be as explicit as possible about such things. > But it would mean one less element to contend with. Please, let's make it explicit. Even if there's no good use for empty content and summary, it's better to leave it as weird than try to make it do work. James -- /--------------------------------------------------------------------------\ James Aylett xapian.org james@tartarus.org uncertaintydivision.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 12:53:13 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA07360 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:53:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABHf9Gq072331; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 09:41:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABHf9JB072330; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 09:41:09 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABHf9v3072308 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 09:41:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CSIwU-0004We-O9; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:41:06 +0000 Message-ID: <4193A433.7090005@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:41:07 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Aylett CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Posted PaceEntryDeletion (was Explicit deletion of feed items?) References: <809AC1AC-33FD-11D9-AFD5-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <1f2ed5cd04111108505806f13e@mail.gmail.com> <20041111172719.GU14256@tartarus.org> In-Reply-To: <20041111172719.GU14256@tartarus.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Aylett wrote: > On Thu, Nov 11, 2004 at 05:50:29PM +0100, Danny Ayers wrote: > > >>Empty content and summary could be used to signify that an entry was >>no more. I honestly don't know if this would be a good idea, usually >>it seems to be better to be as explicit as possible about such things. >>But it would mean one less element to contend with. > > > Please, let's make it explicit. Even if there's no good use for empty > content and summary, it's better to leave it as weird than try to make > it do work. What is meant by deleted? Here's the thread from last time discussed this: http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg08585.html Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 13:14:45 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA08952 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:14:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABI8aEM077056; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:08:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABI8aXJ077055; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:08:36 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABI8aL9077012 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:08:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004111118082601100ngrqve>; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:08:31 +0000 Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:08:25 -0700 Subject: Re: Posted PaceEntryDeletion (was Explicit deletion of feed items?) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <4193A433.7090005@franklinmint.fm> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, November 11, 2004, at 10:41 AM, Robert Sayre wrote: > What is meant by deleted? > > Here's the thread from last time discussed this: > http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg08585.html From that message: > A delete event fits within the rubric of a full versioning publishing > process, and sits alongside other events like retracted, superceded, > withdrawn, etc. Do we need to get into those details? Perhaps it would be sufficient to do it like this in the core: urn:blah/blah/blah so that people who care about additional information could do something like this: urn:blah/blah/blah This entry has been superceded by one based on better intelligence. or and This entry has been superceded by one based on better intelligence. My uninformed opinion is that most implementations would be sufficiently served by knowing simply that the publisher has deleted a particular entry, and that keeping it as lightweight as possible would be preferable. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 13:14:51 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA09008 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:14:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABI58Tj076434; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:05:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABI58Dt076433; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:05:08 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ussjmh01.bea.com (ussjmh01-ext.bea.com [63.96.162.5]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABI58O8076427 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:05:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dorchard@bea.com) Received: from ussjfe01.amer.bea.com (ussjfe01b.bea.com [172.16.120.57]) by ussjmh01.bea.com (Switch-3.0.5/Switch-3.0.0) with ESMTP id iABI59ZL010846; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:05:09 -0800 Received: from ussjex01.amer.bea.com ([172.16.120.50]) by ussjfe01.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:05:09 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Published extensibility Paces Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:05:08 -0800 Message-ID: <32D5845A745BFB429CBDBADA57CD41AF0BAEE4CF@ussjex01.amer.bea.com> Thread-Topic: Published extensibility Paces Thread-Index: AcTHoap3XoR2eJ1VQK2it44YDG3oIQAdUbvg From: "David Orchard" To: "Joe Gregorio" , "Tim Bray" Cc: "Atom WG" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Nov 2004 18:05:09.0691 (UTC) FILETIME=[FB77A8B0:01C4C818] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iABI58O8076428 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A reason why I'm a fan of the mustUnderstand rule is that it enables parties to make incompatible changes, in some situations considered a "major" revision. Without an mU rule, the only way that incompatible changes can be made is through a revision of the Atom namespace and/or version, depending on how we decide to do component version identification. Another way of looking at this is that if you don't really want an Atom NG format, then mU is a way of allowing new "versions" to exist. Here's a couple opposite scenarios for you: 1. Atom does not have mU. Somebody comes up with a really really good mandatory extension. The only way to get this feature in is to Rev Atom to Atom next namespace (or V 2.0) 2. Atom has mU. Nobody in the entire community comes up with a really really good mandatory extension. Nobody uses mU and Atom namespace/version also never gets created. Seems like the safe place to be is to have mU, because without it you are taking a gamble you don't need to. And if you are right that nobody will use mU, then there won't be any complications in atom format instances because, well, nobody will use it.. I agree that spending time/effort on something that might not get used seems like craziness, but the problem is that it's impossible to predict the future, even as smart as all the Atom folks are. Previous versions of RSS seem to validate my belief about being cautious on our omniscience. Cheers, Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom- > syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Joe Gregorio > Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 7:48 PM > To: Tim Bray > Cc: Atom WG > Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces > > > On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:04:47 -0800, Tim Bray wrote: > > > > I had a talk about Atom and extensibility with Dave Orchard this > > morning, and he convinced me that there is benefit in a must-understand > > facility, but then educated me as to how complex it can be to > > implement. > > > > Based on that discussion, I have just published > > PaceMustUnderstandElement and PaceExtendingAtom. Note that the WG > > could reject PaceMustUnderstandElement and I think that > > PaceExtendingAtom would still work. > > -1 on PaceMustUnderstandElement, for the following reasons: > > 1. There is a mustUnderstand feature in SOAP and has proved of no value. > You may attribute that to there being very few compliant > implementations > in SOAP, but that only leads me to my next point: > 2. This is added complexity to the format that few, if any, developers > will implement. > As you report Dave Orchard said, this is complex to implement. > 3. The Pace, as written, doesn't specify any concrete benefit. There is > only theoretical benefit. What situation, current or in the past, in > syndication formats, would a mustUnderstand element have helped? > > -joe > > -- > Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 13:26:05 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA10063 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:26:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABIHrtw079390; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:17:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABIHrwX079389; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:17:53 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail12.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail12.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.28]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iABIHqvj079345 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:17:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 30634 messnum 6478541 invoked from network[62.77.172.85/62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net]); 11 Nov 2004 18:17:50 -0000 Received: from 62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net (HELO ?200.200.200.35?) (62.77.172.85) by mail12.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 30634) with SMTP; 11 Nov 2004 18:17:50 -0000 Message-ID: <4193ACC3.9070800@dehora.net> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:17:39 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8a1) Gecko/20040520 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom WG Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces: A better proposal References: <4193496C.3010602@dehora.net> <47BABFC4-33D8-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <41936C7D.6010608@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Henry Story wrote: > > On 11 Nov 2004, at 14:43, Bill de hÓra wrote: > >> Anyway, this won't cater for the situation where the publisher wants >> to insist you do not process the document without be able to process a >> specified namespace. Tim's proposal does. > > > I was speaking particularly about PaceExtendingAtom [1] So am I. > The problem I have with Tim's Proposal on PaceExtendingAtom is that it > limits where new attributes can appear. I think this will not be a concern by the time we're done. I don't think anyone is looking for text of the kind "you cannot put extra things here". In a roundabout way, when I said that 'unknown foreign elements' weren't needed, this is what I was getting at. Having as many places as possible open for extension should be a good thing. > You can extend Atom with foreign namespaced elements and attributes in > any position, as long as the following conditions are met: > 1- if all those foreign name spaced elements are removed from > DocOrig, you end up with a valid Atom document (call it DocMin) > 2- DocMin should be a well formed Atom Document as stated in this spec > 3- unless a mustunderstand element is present, a parser parsing > DocMin is correctly > parsing DocOrig I might try and synthesize this with PaceExtendingAtom as it may be just another way of phrasing the essence of the Pace. Tim? cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 13:30:29 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA10443 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:30:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABIN8Jl080481; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:23:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABIN8Lc080480; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:23:08 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.143.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABIN7O7080426 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:23:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30B1AB6 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:23:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net (spike.verity.com [10.69.100.102]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id iABIN2KB024165 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:23:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:23:06 -0800 From: Walter Underwood To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Posted PaceEntryDeletion (was Explicit deletion of feed items?) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd04111108505806f13e@mail.gmail.com> References: <809AC1AC-33FD-11D9-AFD5-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <1f2ed5cd04111108505806f13e@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Mac OS X) X-Face: 7Vqnb4fOVKsO)3JuUXKxR\M]:e"u'eG`Zue*.((7i7%P%rvZgS[j~95@C-s3i (s!e;OX`'Pngn5lq*Td}#,"5!^jm(65.";[GPtD^c(/1TtMe&wYO;_}\!}fRkxs%q#Jk 5E^BlXwR+8}qOwy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On Thursday, November 11, 2004 5:50 PM +0100 Danny Ayers wrote: > > Empty content and summary could be used to signify that an entry was > no more. Let's not do that, even though it would sorta work. In our HTTP spidering, we do see documents with no content, but we have different log messages for "200, no title or summary" and "404". Documents like this would be binaries served as text/plain or PDFs which are scanned images with no metadata. Quite common, really, and entries representing those would be empty, too. We are sure to see software problems where entries are generated with no content, and I'd really like to flag those as what they are instead of mistakenly deleting lots of stuff. Should we add a requirement that there must be content in at least one of the entry fields? I think that would be a good idea. Otherwise, clients are required to store null entries. wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect, Verity From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 13:39:49 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA11005 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:39:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABIVMMo082848; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:31:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABIVMr0082847; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:31:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.196]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABIVLZw082813 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:31:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id g11so78781rne for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:31:17 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=a1ncfKm2t/r3zr8OTCANoayij3uVhteRxYV+MigoAsNWNVAqXUruNWv2z8bsl+L1n9VbG5HNpRnWOKSWQHWfIHhBR1jZA0uXgnzNYlNvNlGf4/wc1wDmI6r331Prvi4sFjfvuQLNQr3nQ89A/cSEGpZ84Ws8Oi+h1IyjJ2nCywA= Received: by 10.38.92.37 with SMTP id p37mr431001rnb; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:31:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.151.28 with HTTP; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:31:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3f1451f504111110317424b02c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:31:15 -0500 From: Joe Gregorio Reply-To: Joe Gregorio To: David Orchard Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces Cc: Tim Bray , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <32D5845A745BFB429CBDBADA57CD41AF0BAEE4CF@ussjex01.amer.bea.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <32D5845A745BFB429CBDBADA57CD41AF0BAEE4CF@ussjex01.amer.bea.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:05:08 -0800, David Orchard wrote: > A reason why I'm a fan of the mustUnderstand rule is that it enables > parties to make incompatible changes, in some situations considered a > "major" revision. > > Without an mU rule, the only way that incompatible changes can be made > is through a revision of the Atom namespace and/or version, depending on > how we decide to do component version identification. > > Another way of looking at this is that if you don't really want an Atom > NG format, then mU is a way of allowing new "versions" to exist. > > Here's a couple opposite scenarios for you: > 1. Atom does not have mU. Somebody comes up with a really really good > mandatory extension. The only way to get this feature in is to Rev Atom > to Atom next namespace (or V 2.0) For the addition of a new *mandatory* extension I think a version 2.0 is a perfectly reasonable solution. > 2. Atom has mU. Nobody in the entire community comes up with a really > really good mandatory extension. Nobody uses mU and Atom > namespace/version also never gets created. Yet a lot of software on the client side gets written to support such a change. That's not much of a feature/benefit trade off. > > Seems like the safe place to be is to have mU, because without it you > are taking a gamble you don't need to. And if you are right that nobody > will use mU, then there won't be any complications in atom format > instances because, well, nobody will use it.. > > I agree that spending time/effort on something that might not get used > seems like craziness, but the problem is that it's impossible to predict > the future, even as smart as all the Atom folks are. Sure, and if we run into a problem we get all these smart people back together to produce a 2.0 spec. > Previous versions > of RSS seem to validate my belief about being cautious on our > omniscience. Gettting back to that point about RSS, and to repeat one of my questions: Can you present a single instance in the history of RSS (any version) where a problem occured that could have been fixed with a mustUnderstand element? Thanks, -joe -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 13:45:00 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA11265 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:44:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABIZahK083772; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:35:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABIZacH083771; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:35:36 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ussjmh01.bea.com (ussjmh01-ext.bea.com [63.96.162.5]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABIZabi083760 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:35:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dorchard@bea.com) Received: from ussjfe01.amer.bea.com (ussjfe01b.bea.com [172.16.120.57]) by ussjmh01.bea.com (Switch-3.0.5/Switch-3.0.0) with ESMTP id iABIYlZl014046; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:35:39 -0800 Received: from ussjex01.amer.bea.com ([172.16.120.50]) by ussjfe01.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:35:29 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Atom namespace name Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:35:28 -0800 Message-ID: <32D5845A745BFB429CBDBADA57CD41AF0BAEE583@ussjex01.amer.bea.com> Thread-Topic: Atom namespace name Thread-Index: AcTHe6CbKFShYREBSDy95O3GkLPQ9QAnbJEA From: "David Orchard" To: "Tim Bray" , "Atom WG" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Nov 2004 18:35:29.0570 (UTC) FILETIME=[38332820:01C4C81D] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iABIZabi083764 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I strongly prefer http URIs. I find the W3C Web Arch is sufficiently motivating. I haven't seen IETF documents that directly refute the Web Arch advocacy of http URIs for namespace names. I don't recall them sending in any comments on this during the Web Arch Last Call, so that seems like implicit endorsement. If there's some IETF vs W3C brouhaha on URNS vs http URIs, let them sort it out. And if the IETF won't help with http: URI assignment, I bet the W3C would. I idly wonder if you could use the RFC HTTP for the ns. Cheers, Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom- > syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Tim Bray > Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 3:17 PM > To: 'Atom WG' > Subject: Atom namespace name > > > I've been talking with Scott Hollenbeck, our IETF area director, about > IETF standard practice for namespace names, and he said: > > > The closest thing we have to a guideline is described in RFC 3688. I'd > recommend following the URN structure described in that document, but > that > leaves some freedom for the string used to identify the namespace. > Something like "atom-1.0" could work, but I'm open to suggestions. > > You can see the list of namespaces that have already been registered > here: > > http://www.iana.org/assignments/xml-registry/ns.html > > > This would give us a namespace name something like > "urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:atom" which is OK I guess. I said that I liked > HTTP URIs for namespace names because they leave open the door for > putting some helpful info there and for things like RDDL. Furthermore, > in RFC3470, which Scott co-wrote, section 4.9 agrees with me. So do > sections 3.5 and 4.5.4 of the W3C's "Architecture of the World Wide > Web". > > Scott acknowledged this, but told me that if we go with the RFC3688 > flow, there will be no fuss, no muss, and we'll get our namespace name > smoothly and quickly. If we wanted to stand on principle for an HTTP > name, we'd have to explain why to a whole bunch of people, and then > there's the problem that the IETF doesn't maintain web space for this > kind of thing, so maybe it should be in www.iana.org; anyhow, lots of > extra work. > > So... what's the sentiment of the WG? -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 14:10:38 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA13285 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:10:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABJ1P4H089506; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:01:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABJ1PdF089505; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:01:25 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABJ1OSf089498 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:01:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABJ1Sui024780 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:01:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I7100FYE3IF7K@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:01:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.17] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I7100L7M3IF15@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:01:27 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:01:31 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces In-reply-to: <3f1451f504111019483c4fc886@mail.gmail.com> To: Joe Gregorio Cc: Atom WG Message-id: <1978235E-3414-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <3f1451f504111019483c4fc886@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 10, 2004, at 7:48 PM, Joe Gregorio wrote: > -1 on PaceMustUnderstandElement, for the following reasons: > > 1. There is a mustUnderstand feature in SOAP and has proved of no > value. > You may attribute that to there being very few compliant > implementations > in SOAP, but that only leads me to my next point: > 2. This is added complexity to the format that few, if any, developers > will implement. > As you report Dave Orchard said, this is complex to implement. > 3. The Pace, as written, doesn't specify any concrete benefit. There is > only theoretical benefit. What situation, current or in the past, in > syndication formats, would a mustUnderstand element have helped? I am not passionate about PaceMustUnderstandElement, if the WG doesn't want it, I'm OK with that. Having said that, the benefit is real easy to understand: it allows extensions to declare themselves compulsory. I can easily imagine extensions that might want to do this, but I grant that none have appeared yet. The only place I disagree with Joe is his #2; I think that it's *not* hard to implement as specified. It would be if you could have MustUnderstand attributes scattered throughout the feed as you can in SOAP. In this proposal, you just have to read a list of namespace names at the front of the feed and exit if there are any there you don't know. Questions for Joe: 1. Why do you think this is hard to implement? 2. Assuming I can persuade you that it's cheap, would you be OK with it even given the lack of use in SOAP? -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 14:12:50 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA13421 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:12:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABJ4WTN090500; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:04:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABJ4WH6090499; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:04:32 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABJ4V31090490 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:04:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABJ4Zui026637 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:04:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I7100DSJ3NMOX@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:04:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.17] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I7100KOM3NLPP@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:04:34 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:04:39 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces: A better proposal In-reply-to: To: Henry Story Cc: Atom WG , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= Message-id: <89A1289B-3414-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <4193496C.3010602@dehora.net> <47BABFC4-33D8-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <41936C7D.6010608@dehora.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 11, 2004, at 6:28 AM, Henry Story wrote: > The problem I have with Tim's Proposal on PaceExtendingAtom is that it > limits where new > attributes can appear. I tend to agree. I see little value in the current spec language saying foreign markup can appear only here, here, and here. I don't see how it adds value since MustIgnore is easy to implement. Also, the language is incomplete because it talks only about foreign elements, not foreign attributes. How would people react to a proposal to take these details out of the spec and lightly rewrite PaceExtendingAtom to allow "foreign" markup anywhere? I really like changes that make the spec shorter :) -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 14:25:21 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA14881 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:25:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABJIPqS093821; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:18:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABJIPDo093820; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:18:25 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ussjmh01.bea.com (ussjmh01-ext.bea.com [63.96.162.5]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABJIPbx093812 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:18:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dorchard@bea.com) Received: from ussjfe02.amer.bea.com (ussjfe02.bea.com [172.16.120.52]) by ussjmh01.bea.com (Switch-3.0.5/Switch-3.0.0) with ESMTP id iABJISZL020025; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:18:28 -0800 Received: from ussjex01.amer.bea.com ([172.16.120.50]) by ussjfe02.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:18:28 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Published extensibility Paces Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:18:28 -0800 Message-ID: <32D5845A745BFB429CBDBADA57CD41AF0BAEE665@ussjex01.amer.bea.com> Thread-Topic: Published extensibility Paces Thread-Index: AcTHejftzrRryzE/QheCcr6io3glrQApzXUQ From: "David Orchard" To: "Tim Bray" , "Atom WG" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Nov 2004 19:18:28.0808 (UTC) FILETIME=[398BA480:01C4C823] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iABJIPbx093814 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I kind of like where this is going, but I think that the discussion of "foreign" should be removed. If Atom refers normatively to some third party spec, like dc:title, is that foreign? I would simply say "unknown" markup is allowed as I did in http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceExtensibilityAndVersioningNoSce narios A minor tweak on MU: what about making the namespaces into a list of URIs in an attribute, ie ? Also, does the removal of version imply a resolution to Atom Component Identification that is the use of atom namespace name changes + mU to indicate incompatible versions, as I had proposed? Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom- > syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Tim Bray > Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 3:05 PM > To: 'Atom WG' > Subject: Published extensibility Paces > > > I had a talk about Atom and extensibility with Dave Orchard this > morning, and he convinced me that there is benefit in a must-understand > facility, but then educated me as to how complex it can be to > implement. > > Based on that discussion, I have just published > PaceMustUnderstandElement and PaceExtendingAtom. Note that the WG > could reject PaceMustUnderstandElement and I think that > PaceExtendingAtom would still work. > > For convenience: > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceMustUnderstandElement > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceExtendingAtom > > -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 14:34:36 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA15820 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:34:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABJRb1I096168; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:27:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABJRbFR096167; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:27:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABJRbIc096153 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:27:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABJReui010119 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:27:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I7100FT34Q47K@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:27:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.17] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I7100KZM4Q3PP@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:27:40 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:27:44 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces In-reply-to: <32D5845A745BFB429CBDBADA57CD41AF0BAEE665@ussjex01.amer.bea.com> To: David Orchard Cc: Atom WG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <32D5845A745BFB429CBDBADA57CD41AF0BAEE665@ussjex01.amer.bea.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 11, 2004, at 11:18 AM, David Orchard wrote: > I kind of like where this is going, but I think that the discussion of > "foreign" should be removed. If Atom refers normatively to some third > party spec, like dc:title, is that foreign? I would simply say > "unknown" markup is allowed as I did in > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/ > PaceExtensibilityAndVersioningNoSce > narios If people buy the concept, we can let the editors choose the word. > A minor tweak on MU: what about making the namespaces into a list of > URIs in an attribute, ie ? Just seems like it's easier to make the XML processor do the parsing rather than having to do it yourself. > Also, does the removal of version imply a resolution to Atom Component > Identification that is the use of atom namespace name changes + mU to > indicate incompatible versions, as I had proposed? I totally didn't understand that question, and I bet there are others similarly puzzled. Want to try again? -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 14:36:07 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA15954 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:36:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABJSTTd096369; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:28:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABJST4u096368; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:28:29 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABJSTgI096339 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:28:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 95332 invoked by uid 17064); 11 Nov 2004 19:28:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.2]) ([83.112.6.185]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 11 Nov 2004 19:28:23 -0000 In-Reply-To: <32D5845A745BFB429CBDBADA57CD41AF0BAEE665@ussjex01.amer.bea.com> References: <32D5845A745BFB429CBDBADA57CD41AF0BAEE665@ussjex01.amer.bea.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: David Orchard From: Henry Story Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:28:16 +0100 To: Atom WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 11 Nov 2004, at 20:18, David Orchard wrote: > > I kind of like where this is going, but I think that the discussion of > "foreign" should be removed. If Atom refers normatively to some third > party spec, like dc:title, is that foreign? There would be no need for atom to normatively do this. That can be hidden away in the OWL ontology. That is where you can state that atom:title is a subproperty of dc:title > I would simply say > "unknown" markup is allowed as I did in > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/ > PaceExtensibilityAndVersioningNoSce > narios > > A minor tweak on MU: what about making the namespaces into a list of > URIs in an attribute, ie ? I don't think that would be such a good idea. I prefer a set of them uri1 uri2 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 14:48:56 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA16982 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:48:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABJfnnv098668; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:41:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABJfnYe098667; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:41:49 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.143.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABJfmU5098643 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:41:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 602AED4 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:41:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net (spike.verity.com [10.69.100.102]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id iABJfkKB024478 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:41:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:41:49 -0800 From: Walter Underwood To: Atom WG Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces Message-ID: <9EEABEC476CEBFE4327CD9B0@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <1978235E-3414-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> References: <3f1451f504111019483c4fc886@mail.gmail.com> <1978235E-3414-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Mac OS X) X-Face: 7Vqnb4fOVKsO)3JuUXKxR\M]:e"u'eG`Zue*.((7i7%P%rvZgS[j~95@C-s3i (s!e;OX`'Pngn5lq*Td}#,"5!^jm(65.";[GPtD^c(/1TtMe&wYO;_}\!}fRkxs%q#Jk 5E^BlXwR+8}qOwy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit About "must understand": --On Thursday, November 11, 2004 11:01 AM -0800 Tim Bray wrote: > > Questions for Joe: > 1. Why do you think this is hard to implement? > 2. Assuming I can persuade you that it's cheap, would you be OK with it > even given the lack of use in SOAP? Speaking as "Joe for a day": We parse no formats with compulsory extensions. It just doesn't exist for PDF, MS Office, OpenOffice, WordPerfect, whatever. You want to change it, you rev the version. Implementing this require a new result from parsing: it is a legal document, but we are not allowed to tell you what is in it. Feeds are in a funny place between API and document. But I think they are more document than API. APIs have "must understand", but documents don't. What does a search engine do when faced with a "must understand" element? Throw away the whole thing and log it? Ignore the spec and salvage what we can? Which one results in fewer support calls? wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect, Verity From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 14:52:27 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA17285 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:52:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABJiQBT099348; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:44:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABJiQsn099347; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:44:26 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail08.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail08.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.24]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iABJiPru099320 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:44:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 78689 messnum 3859413 invoked from network[83.70.255.40/83-70-255-40.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 11 Nov 2004 19:44:23 -0000 Received: from 83-70-255-40.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?192.168.123.143?) (83.70.255.40) by mail08.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 78689) with SMTP; 11 Nov 2004 19:44:23 -0000 Message-ID: <4193C10C.7040804@dehora.net> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:44:12 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8a1) Gecko/20040520 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom WG Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces: A better proposal References: <4193496C.3010602@dehora.net> <47BABFC4-33D8-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <41936C7D.6010608@dehora.net> <89A1289B-3414-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <89A1289B-3414-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > How would people react to a proposal to take these details out of the > spec and lightly rewrite PaceExtendingAtom to allow "foreign" markup > anywhere? I really like changes that make the spec shorter :) +1 cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 14:57:54 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA18214 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:57:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABJnVVe000810; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:49:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABJnVDf000809; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:49:31 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABJnUUi000778 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:49:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABJnYNH002395 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:49:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I7100D395QLOX@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:49:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.17] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I7100KD55QKPP@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:49:33 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:49:36 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces In-reply-to: To: Henry Story Cc: Atom WG , David Orchard Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <32D5845A745BFB429CBDBADA57CD41AF0BAEE665@ussjex01.amer.bea.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 11, 2004, at 11:28 AM, Henry Story wrote: > I don't think that would be such a good idea. I prefer a set of them > > uri1 > uri2 For all the others who apparently didn't bother to read the Pace, the proposal was uri1 uri2 -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 15:05:41 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA19171 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:05:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABJrWVY001971; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:53:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABJrWim001970; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:53:32 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABJrVi5001937 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:53:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iABJqVPe014608 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:52:36 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: <41936C7D.6010608@dehora.net> References: <4193496C.3010602@dehora.net> <47BABFC4-33D8-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <41936C7D.6010608@dehora.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-6--511015491; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <39DFC544-341B-11D9-A4C0-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> From: Graham Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces: A better proposal Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:52:31 +0000 To: Atom WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-6--511015491 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 11 Nov 2004, at 1:43 pm, Bill de h=D3ra wrote: > Anyway, this won't cater for the situation where the publisher wants=20= > to insist you do not process the document without be able to process a=20= > specified namespace. If they don't want you to process it, what are they doing putting it on=20= the internet? I'm really lost as to what this situation might be. On 11 Nov 2004, at 6:05 pm, David Orchard wrote: > 1. Atom does not have mU. Somebody comes up with a really really good > mandatory extension. The only way to get this feature in is to Rev=20 > Atom > to Atom next namespace (or V 2.0) What the bloody hell is a "mandatory" "extension" ? > 2. Atom has mU. Nobody in the entire community comes up with a really > really good mandatory extension. Nobody uses mU and Atom > namespace/version also never gets created. Meanwhile every Atom processor is churning through every element in=20 every document looking for elements it can artificially fail on. More seriously, define "understand"? Is it OK for me to "understand" an=20= element I do nothing with? Am I going to have to compile a list of=20 extensions I "understand" but am consciously ignoring? 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Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:13:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABK3U0D003887; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:03:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABK3UOe003886; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:03:30 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.193]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABK3T0d003877 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:03:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id g11so102362rne for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:03:30 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=sDzZrG+YJ5G49pSJXFeECPE4462U7R/oX7wYWRqmT2DOj6IxAgBQw9Or2nOL2mFgYAF9QvKKgqAjX1qze+Fe9Y725isR/VLuRXuoiAmzK35bjD4ro54WFmxCo0vNE53QVVqkb7eL/Q/w8UfykMP/1jGD4zjtOS8ds4n4eCy/aFs= Received: by 10.38.92.37 with SMTP id p37mr494237rnb; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:03:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.151.28 with HTTP; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:03:25 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3f1451f504111112032183dffb@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:03:25 -0500 From: Joe Gregorio Reply-To: Joe Gregorio To: Tim Bray Subject: PaceMustUnderstandElement (was Re: Published extensibility Paces) Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Answering some of your questions brought up some more questions on how this would work: 1. Does mustUnderstand apply no matter what I am doing to the feed? For example, combining multiple feeds into a single synthesized feed? How about validating a feed? 2. How does this relate to SOAP's mustUnderstand role in the protocol part. From my understanding of SOAP the mustUnderstand attribute indicates a header that must be processed. From the 1.2 SOAP spec: "Mandatory SOAP header blocks are presumed to somehow modify the semantics of other SOAP header blocks or SOAP body elements." In the case of the protocol that 'body element' is an Atom feed or entry. What if I were truly evil and spec'd a mandatory SOAP header whose purpose was to force the atom:must-understand element to be ignored? And this is just the evil I could come up with after a few minutes of thinking about it. Give me some time and I could probably do much worse :) -joe On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:04:47 -0800, Tim Bray wrote: > > I had a talk about Atom and extensibility with Dave Orchard this > morning, and he convinced me that there is benefit in a must-understand > facility, but then educated me as to how complex it can be to > implement. > > Based on that discussion, I have just published > PaceMustUnderstandElement and PaceExtendingAtom. Note that the WG > could reject PaceMustUnderstandElement and I think that > PaceExtendingAtom would still work. > > For convenience: > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceMustUnderstandElement > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceExtendingAtom > > -Tim > > -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 15:19:34 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA21411 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:19:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABKC1tw005170; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:12:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABKC1tF005169; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:12:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABKC0Pq005160 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:12:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABKC4ui004619 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:12:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I7100F096S37K@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:12:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.17] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I7100KN66S2PP@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:12:03 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:12:06 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: PaceMustUnderstandElement (was Re: Published extensibility Paces) In-reply-to: <3f1451f504111112032183dffb@mail.gmail.com> To: Joe Gregorio Cc: Atom WG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <3f1451f504111112032183dffb@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 11, 2004, at 12:03 PM, Joe Gregorio wrote: > 1. Does mustUnderstand apply no matter what I am doing to the feed? > For example, combining multiple feeds into a single synthesized feed? > How about validating a feed? Yes. It's a simple binary on/off switch. Anything else gets very hairy very fast. > 2. How does this relate to SOAP's mustUnderstand role in the > protocol part. From my understanding of SOAP the > mustUnderstand attribute indicates a header that must be > processed. From the 1.2 SOAP spec: > "Mandatory SOAP header blocks are presumed to somehow > modify the semantics of other SOAP header blocks or SOAP > body elements." > > In the case of the protocol that 'body element' is an Atom feed > or entry. What if I were truly evil and spec'd a mandatory SOAP > header whose purpose was to force the atom:must-understand > element to be ignored? A conformant processor of Atom documents cannot (if this were adopted) ignore atom:must-understand. I mean, I could write a mandatory SOAP header that forced all h1, h2, and h3 elements to be suppressed in XHTML content, but that would be silly and vacuous. I think I'm not getting your point. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 15:33:04 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA22890 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:33:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABKNRw6007554; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:23:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABKNRuQ007553; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:23:27 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABKNQ7j007547 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:23:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CSLTa-0003ju-Qm; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:23:26 +0000 Message-ID: <4193CA40.9030202@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:23:28 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Walter Underwood CC: Atom WG Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces References: <3f1451f504111019483c4fc886@mail.gmail.com> <1978235E-3414-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <9EEABEC476CEBFE4327CD9B0@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <9EEABEC476CEBFE4327CD9B0@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter Underwood wrote: > > Implementing this require a new result from parsing: it is a legal > document, but we are not allowed to tell you what is in it. > Do we have any use cases? Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 15:37:11 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA23856 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:37:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABKIBiY006697; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:18:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABKIBof006696; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:18:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABKIACp006688 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:18:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 34414 invoked by uid 17064); 11 Nov 2004 20:18:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.2]) ([83.112.6.185]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 11 Nov 2004 20:18:14 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: <32D5845A745BFB429CBDBADA57CD41AF0BAEE583@ussjex01.amer.bea.com> References: <32D5845A745BFB429CBDBADA57CD41AF0BAEE583@ussjex01.amer.bea.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: Atom namespace name Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:18:08 +0100 To: Atom WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 11 Nov 2004, at 19:35, David Orchard wrote: > I idly wonder if you could use the > RFC HTTP for the ns. I was thinking further that not only should the URI point to the directory in which the RFC is located, but the same directory should contain an OWL description of the resources. Using content negotiation, a browser would thereby download the RFC in html or text format, but a RDF agent would download the OWL file describing the ontology behind the format. There are many ways of doing this. This is the way things are organized for the Biography ontology at The above URI gives you an overview of the Biography terms. Each of the terms is then seperately defined in its own directory. For example the uri, leads one to both the html or the rdf version of the definition, depending on content negotiation. The same uri the provides a machine readable and human readable definition. In the case of Atom this would mean there would be a http://ietf.org/somedir/atom/1.0/ directory in which the RFC would be located, in text and perhaps html form. There would then be further directories such as http://ietf.org/somedir/atom/1.0/Feed Which would contain the html and rdf/owl definition of a Feed object. This would be so cool! Henry From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 15:40:24 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA24308 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:40:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABKVmrm009371; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:31:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABKVmrO009370; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:31:48 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABKVmkQ009338 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:31:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004111120313401400ohb69e>; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:31:39 +0000 Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:31:32 -0700 Subject: Re: PaceMustUnderstandElement (was Re: Published extensibility Paces) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <3f1451f504111112032183dffb@mail.gmail.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, November 11, 2004, at 01:03 PM, Joe Gregorio wrote: > 1. Does mustUnderstand apply no matter what I am doing to the feed? > For example, combining multiple feeds into a single synthesized feed? > How about validating a feed? I would say "yes", it must always apply. This also brings up something that should be added to the proposal: when aggregating feeds, if one contains mU, that must be carried into the aggregate feed with it unless no entries coming from that feed are affected by anything from that namespace. (I say "not affected by" rather than "contains" because I suppose it's possible that someone could write an extension which adds elements outside of an entry which affect that entry--it may or may not be a bad design, but that doesn't make it impossible). Another point: if were to appears inside rather before it, and we were to accept PaceHeadInEntry, we'd need to decide/clarify whether it could appear in the in an , or whether it would have to appear in the 's . As now written, that's not an issue, because appears before , not inside it. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 16:55:27 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA03008 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:55:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABLi44v025368; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:44:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABLi45e025367; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:44:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ussjmh01.bea.com (ussjmh01-ext.bea.com [63.96.162.5]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABLi3J5025333 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:44:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dorchard@bea.com) Received: from ussjfe02.amer.bea.com (ussjfe02.bea.com [172.16.120.52]) by ussjmh01.bea.com (Switch-3.0.5/Switch-3.0.0) with ESMTP id iABLi4ZL003378; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:44:04 -0800 Received: from ussjex01.amer.bea.com ([172.16.120.50]) by ussjfe02.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:44:04 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Published extensibility Paces Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:44:03 -0800 Message-ID: <32D5845A745BFB429CBDBADA57CD41AF0BAEE8DD@ussjex01.amer.bea.com> Thread-Topic: Published extensibility Paces Thread-Index: AcTIJtTwHAl8zXFpS5OEGmU60ysJWwAEApLA From: "David Orchard" To: "Walter Underwood" , "Atom WG" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Nov 2004 21:44:04.0107 (UTC) FILETIME=[90307DB0:01C4C837] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iABLi4J5025362 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well, of course PDF, Office, Wordperfect don't have the notion of mandatory extensions. They want sole control over their formats AND the processing software. They want to be the gatekeepers for any future incompatible changes or versions. I don't think you are really suggesting that Atom should be run the same way that PDF is run from a distributed extensibility and versioning perspective. Atom can enable fully functional distributed extensibility and versioning for it's community, as opposed to being the centralized authority for mandatory extensions. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom- > syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Walter Underwood > Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 11:42 AM > To: Atom WG > Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces > > > About "must understand": > > --On Thursday, November 11, 2004 11:01 AM -0800 Tim Bray > wrote: > > > > Questions for Joe: > > 1. Why do you think this is hard to implement? > > 2. Assuming I can persuade you that it's cheap, would you be OK with it > > even given the lack of use in SOAP? > > Speaking as "Joe for a day": We parse no formats with compulsory > extensions. It just doesn't exist for PDF, MS Office, OpenOffice, > WordPerfect, whatever. You want to change it, you rev the version. > > Implementing this require a new result from parsing: it is a legal > document, but we are not allowed to tell you what is in it. > > Feeds are in a funny place between API and document. But I think > they are more document than API. APIs have "must understand", but > documents don't. > > What does a search engine do when faced with a "must understand" > element? Throw away the whole thing and log it? Ignore the spec > and salvage what we can? Which one results in fewer support calls? > > wunder > -- > Walter Underwood > Principal Architect, Verity From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 16:56:08 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA03118 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:56:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABLnEsd026446; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:49:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABLnECe026445; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:49:14 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.143.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABLnDAh026416 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:49:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48EB69F for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:49:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net (spike.verity.com [10.69.100.102]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id iABLnBKB024981 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:49:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:49:15 -0800 From: Walter Underwood To: Atom WG Subject: RE: Published extensibility Paces Message-ID: <06D9F68E388388C4AC0C5A49@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <32D5845A745BFB429CBDBADA57CD41AF0BAEE8DD@ussjex01.amer.bea.com> References: <32D5845A745BFB429CBDBADA57CD41AF0BAEE8DD@ussjex01.amer.bea.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Mac OS X) X-Face: 7Vqnb4fOVKsO)3JuUXKxR\M]:e"u'eG`Zue*.((7i7%P%rvZgS[j~95@C-s3i (s!e;OX`'Pngn5lq*Td}#,"5!^jm(65.";[GPtD^c(/1TtMe&wYO;_}\!}fRkxs%q#Jk 5E^BlXwR+8}qOwy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was answering the question "how hard would it be to implement". The answer is, it is an Atom-specific thing, which isn't required for any other format. Therefore, it is more work. wunder --On Thursday, November 11, 2004 1:44 PM -0800 David Orchard wrote: > Well, of course PDF, Office, Wordperfect don't have the notion of > mandatory extensions. They want sole control over their formats AND the > processing software. They want to be the gatekeepers for any future > incompatible changes or versions. > > I don't think you are really suggesting that Atom should be run the same > way that PDF is run from a distributed extensibility and versioning > perspective. Atom can enable fully functional distributed extensibility > and versioning for it's community, as opposed to being the centralized > authority for mandatory extensions. > > Dave > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom- >> syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Walter Underwood >> Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 11:42 AM >> To: Atom WG >> Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces >> >> >> About "must understand": >> >> --On Thursday, November 11, 2004 11:01 AM -0800 Tim Bray >> wrote: >> > >> > Questions for Joe: >> > 1. Why do you think this is hard to implement? >> > 2. Assuming I can persuade you that it's cheap, would you be OK with > it >> > even given the lack of use in SOAP? >> >> Speaking as "Joe for a day": We parse no formats with compulsory >> extensions. It just doesn't exist for PDF, MS Office, OpenOffice, >> WordPerfect, whatever. You want to change it, you rev the version. >> >> Implementing this require a new result from parsing: it is a legal >> document, but we are not allowed to tell you what is in it. >> >> Feeds are in a funny place between API and document. But I think >> they are more document than API. APIs have "must understand", but >> documents don't. >> >> What does a search engine do when faced with a "must understand" >> element? Throw away the whole thing and log it? Ignore the spec >> and salvage what we can? Which one results in fewer support calls? >> >> wunder >> -- >> Walter Underwood >> Principal Architect, Verity > -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect, Verity From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 16:56:11 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA03136 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:56:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABLlSgO026252; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:47:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABLlS6H026251; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:47:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.204]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABLlRaI026214 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:47:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so376882rns for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:47:27 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=h6qsOskl9Bfze1c7FC74C9QoVyp7d+wXQcPENN+zAf80ZyMYe9Z5CB5u/pnhTLpK0LnA2fgXS321gbKbXmHZMSern6N9RDjzjPKxFRyC6fQ9he+8GRZ0iPT8cnAP1tnfHEyighvqI915fD/SblrugNFgDzOTqGRipYtgi4DL7ts= Received: by 10.38.10.71 with SMTP id 71mr405615rnj; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:47:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:47:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04111113474b66213c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:47:27 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Walter Underwood Subject: Re: Posted PaceEntryDeletion (was Explicit deletion of feed items?) Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <809AC1AC-33FD-11D9-AFD5-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <1f2ed5cd04111108505806f13e@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:23:06 -0800, Walter Underwood wrote: > We are sure to see software problems where entries are generated > with no content, and I'd really like to flag those as what they > are instead of mistakenly deleting lots of stuff. > > Should we add a requirement that there must be content in at > least one of the entry fields? I think that would be a good > idea. Otherwise, clients are required to store null entries. Yep, that makes sense - nulls are probably unmanageable, so absence of content (probably including "") should be treated as an error condition. A resource with a deleted attribute of "true" on the other hand (with any content, probably including "") should be ok. The human-level semantics would be in the same spirit as atom:updated, i.e. the publisher says to remove any representations of this resource from sight (URIs are for ever, not just for Christmas). Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 17:01:40 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA03605 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:01:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABLse7Q027374; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:54:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABLse9B027373; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:54:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ussjmh01.bea.com (ussjmh01-ext.bea.com [63.96.162.5]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABLsdKM027367 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:54:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dorchard@bea.com) Received: from ussjfe01.amer.bea.com (ussjfe01b.bea.com [172.16.120.57]) by ussjmh01.bea.com (Switch-3.0.5/Switch-3.0.0) with ESMTP id iABLsiZL004658; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:54:44 -0800 Received: from ussjex01.amer.bea.com ([172.16.120.50]) by ussjfe01.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:54:44 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Published extensibility Paces Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:54:44 -0800 Message-ID: <32D5845A745BFB429CBDBADA57CD41AF0BAEE909@ussjex01.amer.bea.com> Thread-Topic: Published extensibility Paces Thread-Index: AcTIJIQw5B/Zj9ZxQW6IxqDx8D/3uAAE6D1w From: "David Orchard" To: Cc: "Atom WG" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Nov 2004 21:54:44.0712 (UTC) FILETIME=[0E050E80:01C4C839] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iABLseKM027368 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > -----Original Message----- > From: Tim.Bray@Sun.COM [mailto:Tim.Bray@Sun.COM] > > Also, does the removal of version imply a resolution to Atom Component > > Identification that is the use of atom namespace name changes + mU to > > indicate incompatible versions, as I had proposed? > > I totally didn't understand that question, and I bet there are others > similarly puzzled. Want to try again? -Tim Cough. Sure. My original pace gives any future of Atom 2 choices for indicating an incompatible change, but revised with your proposal to: 1. Revise any of the Feed or Entry QNames, ie . 2. Use a mustUnderstand, ie atomnext. I don't like staying just at #2, which is what I think you are implying, because we shouldn't constrain the future version of Atom in it's choices for using namespace names to indicate compatible or incompatible versions. I'd written up some rules in my pace for the choices that future extensions or versions, by either atom or not atom authors, could use namespaces and that included #1 and #2. Cheers, Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 17:08:24 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA04411 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:08:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABM2Dnt029068; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:02:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABM2DQr029067; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:02:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.204]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABM2CmQ029058 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:02:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so377732rns for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:02:12 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=oL6c3qdHDnYIVG1+SOU2DD/37m5KgahCADMAplN7Eje4lVlt/rf49pNr9voCqtAKVkWmqy6ApOfPy15JC2vlrioHrFQqkNtCwpKvPHhy10VUKK15X0+PFlq5wNmklD3it81XZfy4zXtulX3TgQIsWlb80wUz01jClNBmwtnnbak= Received: by 10.38.10.71 with SMTP id 71mr411661rnj; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:02:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.24 with HTTP; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:02:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0411111402361c1226@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:02:12 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces: A better proposal Cc: Henry Story , Atom WG , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= In-Reply-To: <89A1289B-3414-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <4193496C.3010602@dehora.net> <47BABFC4-33D8-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <41936C7D.6010608@dehora.net> <89A1289B-3414-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:04:39 -0800, Tim Bray wrote: > How would people react to a proposal to take these details out of the > spec and lightly rewrite PaceExtendingAtom to allow "foreign" markup > anywhere? I really like changes that make the spec shorter :) I think that's moving in the opposite direction to what Atom needs for future growth. Constraints make compatibility between extensions easier by clearly demarcating them. After all, why are we using markup in the first place? I think Robert's (unfinished I think) PacePropertyDesign is promising, I'll try and add another compromise Pace in the next few days. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 18:00:53 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA09507 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:00:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABMlO8x040077; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:47:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABMlOVh040076; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:47:24 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABMlNTM040050 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:47:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iABMkLZ6007207; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:46:27 GMT In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd04111113474b66213c@mail.gmail.com> References: <809AC1AC-33FD-11D9-AFD5-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <1f2ed5cd04111108505806f13e@mail.gmail.com> <1f2ed5cd04111113474b66213c@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-7--500585055; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <82E611B5-3433-11D9-A4C0-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org, Walter Underwood From: Graham Subject: Re: Posted PaceEntryDeletion (was Explicit deletion of feed items?) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:46:21 +0000 To: Danny Ayers X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-7--500585055 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 11 Nov 2004, at 9:47 pm, Danny Ayers wrote: > i.e. the publisher says to remove any representations of this resource > from sight (URIs are for ever, not just for Christmas). I think the semantic should be that the publisher is giving an explanation why an entry is no longer in the feed. I think the opposite tag would be even more useful "this entry no longer in the feed because it got old". Anyway, I think this is definitely the kind of problem Atom should be solving. Graham --Apple-Mail-7--500585055 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMTExMjI0NjIyWjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUkZtrGfOLdVRQm7VX6f5/InET HEoweAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEACKbCQalrMGwoZ9jSZlDr02gn ca7wTxLPy1LZzBObiI6oOUtWRQcby4Z37GjHTvJJF1FmrAW0QgzRCqc/y0CzJQVnjxjYiMt2rtPK VyrEDBAslufSRXzvU1s/rprDLu6V0LYYpBYQ5oOFAdAXz0w5f8iEB6f+lN1Hrefn9h6hTTcV8K6t zyCqn8XKan+DatvKITTuAVMc/0argAfS47jYX7WT1brYCJrKLmg8rrpZsmcdrfJOaHgMGZbknPVp 3R4PoeAPce2NpMTfZ/riXF2dryYvb0RI0HfOFpxr6bjpHUFG8thrMzw9c4nn3FzymXpzcebU+Nhw 4GZHCHeyftv3QAAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-7--500585055-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 18:00:57 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA09530 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:00:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABMsPDE041276; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:54:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABMsPW1041275; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:54:25 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABMsODc041213 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:54:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iABMruLN008473; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:53:56 GMT In-Reply-To: <32D5845A745BFB429CBDBADA57CD41AF0BAEE8DD@ussjex01.amer.bea.com> References: <32D5845A745BFB429CBDBADA57CD41AF0BAEE8DD@ussjex01.amer.bea.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-8--500130171; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <9207E4C5-3434-11D9-A4C0-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Cc: Atom WG , Walter Underwood From: Graham Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:53:57 +0000 To: David Orchard X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-8--500130171 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 11 Nov 2004, at 9:44 pm, David Orchard wrote: > Well, of course PDF, Office, Wordperfect don't have the notion of > mandatory extensions. Since when did Atom? I've been following this list since the start and I have no idea what you might be talking about. mandatory = required = not optional extension = optional = not required I ask, once again, what the bloody hell is a mandatory extension? Graham --Apple-Mail-8--500130171 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMTExMjI1MzU4WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUV+XSzzR6SzZefVi6nHuzyH1+ Gm0weAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEAvF56R/6uLfs61MeoUlPuzsgI bZrA/w4HeImyzM2mfRUh+xSsXnF96sU5L/FndPdMkQyTobkttvACXeWcAL9tR2pWvuVqAPOpUujL pZ8zuqJwclIgh776sut7wPuGJ1/nArLIAT8z22SpcWFefGakyNpzH5D5TKnpGjWzuftP2K70LS0t lz9of7nDx/sppTrNJXQ7gtiyEjJt52HVBokVA7yvhT8UTJyIoRMmgZCTDStYVfDQASrV3qmZmYKY Cl+kRISGLquTkXCY9fZ43B8If6l3bUPIG/nRF2C37fbBbWLaq/7QmsSyhbSb1eHIXON8pxerF7y+ uO6+l8ptwrs+kwAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-8--500130171-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 18:19:29 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA12587 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:19:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABNC9hF044544; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:12:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABNC9um044543; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:12:09 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABNC843044537 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:12:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABNCDui014838 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:12:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I7100F22F4D7K@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:12:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.17] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I7100JNLF4CGS@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:12:13 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:12:18 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Posted PaceEntryDeletion (was Explicit deletion of feed items?) In-reply-to: <1f2ed5cd04111113474b66213c@mail.gmail.com> To: Danny Ayers Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org, Walter Underwood Message-id: <2201032B-3437-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <809AC1AC-33FD-11D9-AFD5-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <1f2ed5cd04111108505806f13e@mail.gmail.com> <1f2ed5cd04111113474b66213c@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 11, 2004, at 1:47 PM, Danny Ayers wrote: >> Should we add a requirement that there must be content in at >> least one of the entry fields? I think that would be a good >> idea. Otherwise, clients are required to store null entries. > > Yep, that makes sense Someone write a Pace. It only takes a couple of minutes. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 18:23:13 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA13208 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:23:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABNDaQe044895; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:13:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABNDaIr044894; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:13:36 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABNDZke044887 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:13:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABNDeui015645 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:13:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I7100F9UF6R7K@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:13:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.17] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I7100JX1F6KGV@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:13:39 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:13:38 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces In-reply-to: <9207E4C5-3434-11D9-A4C0-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> To: Graham Cc: Atom WG , David Orchard , Walter Underwood Message-id: <51E89363-3437-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <32D5845A745BFB429CBDBADA57CD41AF0BAEE8DD@ussjex01.amer.bea.com> <9207E4C5-3434-11D9-A4C0-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 11, 2004, at 2:53 PM, Graham wrote: > > I ask, once again, what the bloody hell is a mandatory extension? One in a namespace which is listed in the atom:must-understand element. Since we don't currently have must-understand in the draft, there is no such thing. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 18:28:39 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA13800 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:28:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABNKYrh045847; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:20:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABNKYE7045846; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:20:34 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABNKYbK045840 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:20:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CSOEz-0004at-Sa; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:20:34 +0000 Message-ID: <4193F3C1.6050006@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:20:33 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Danny Ayers CC: Tim Bray , Henry Story , Atom WG , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces: A better proposal References: <4193496C.3010602@dehora.net> <47BABFC4-33D8-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <41936C7D.6010608@dehora.net> <89A1289B-3414-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <1f2ed5cd0411111402361c1226@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd0411111402361c1226@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Danny Ayers wrote: > > I think Robert's (unfinished I think) PacePropertyDesign is promising, I don't think so. I pretty much hit the wall with that one. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 18:29:10 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA13842 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:29:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABNN0ev046384; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:23:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABNN0MR046383; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:23:00 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chromium.sabren.com (chromium.sabren.com [69.20.61.177]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABNMxCb046376 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:22:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.1.103] ([66.57.27.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by chromium.sabren.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iABNOZXf017843; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:24:38 -0500 Message-ID: <4193F44C.7080707@intertwingly.net> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:22:52 -0500 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040803 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham CC: Atom WG Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces References: <32D5845A745BFB429CBDBADA57CD41AF0BAEE8DD@ussjex01.amer.bea.com> <9207E4C5-3434-11D9-A4C0-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <9207E4C5-3434-11D9-A4C0-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > On 11 Nov 2004, at 9:44 pm, David Orchard wrote: > >> Well, of course PDF, Office, Wordperfect don't have the notion of >> mandatory extensions. > > Since when did Atom? I've been following this list since the start and I > have no idea what you might be talking about. > > mandatory = required = not optional > extension = optional = not required > > I ask, once again, what the bloody hell is a mandatory extension? Extension = optional is the invalid assumption in the equations above. An example of a mustUnderstand header from SOAP would be an encryption header. If you don't undertstand this header, there is no reason to even attempt to parse the body, as it would not make sense to you anyway. Whether there every have been a need for such things in syndication land (or, alternately, whether we can confidently state that they will never be a need for such a thing) is a separate question. - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 18:48:40 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA15296 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:48:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABNYVxu048991; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:34:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iABNYVQB048990; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:34:31 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iABNYUvZ048979 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:34:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iABNWVSK019439; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:32:31 GMT In-Reply-To: <51E89363-3437-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> References: <32D5845A745BFB429CBDBADA57CD41AF0BAEE8DD@ussjex01.amer.bea.com> <9207E4C5-3434-11D9-A4C0-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <51E89363-3437-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-9--497814930; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: Cc: David Orchard , Atom WG , Walter Underwood From: Graham Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:32:32 +0000 To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-9--497814930 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 11 Nov 2004, at 11:13 pm, Tim Bray wrote: > On Nov 11, 2004, at 2:53 PM, Graham wrote: > >> I ask, once again, what the bloody hell is a mandatory extension? > > One in a namespace which is listed in the atom:must-understand > element. Since we don't currently have must-understand in the draft, > there is no such thing. -Tim Dave: Mandatory extensions beget atom:must-understand Tim: atom:must-understand begets mandatory extensions I have decided that Shrook understands all possible extensions but is consciously choosing not to display whatever they might contain. Thus I don't have to implement any of this nonsense. 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Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:36:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC1P6LE070786; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:25:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC1P6r5070785; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:25:06 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ussjmh01.bea.com (ussjmh01-ext.bea.com [63.96.162.5]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC1P5bh070750 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:25:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dorchard@bea.com) Received: from ussjfe02.amer.bea.com (ussjfe02.bea.com [172.16.120.52]) by ussjmh01.bea.com (Switch-3.0.5/Switch-3.0.0) with ESMTP id iAC1P6ZL021184; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:25:06 -0800 Received: from ussjex01.amer.bea.com ([172.16.120.50]) by ussjfe02.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:25:06 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Published extensibility Paces Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:25:06 -0800 Message-ID: <32D5845A745BFB429CBDBADA57CD41AF0BAEEC14@ussjex01.amer.bea.com> Thread-Topic: Published extensibility Paces Thread-Index: AcTIRwJa/RLYi/weTJyrdIv1u7iZhQAD13uw From: "David Orchard" To: "Graham" , "Tim Bray" Cc: "Atom WG" , "Walter Underwood" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Nov 2004 01:25:06.0535 (UTC) FILETIME=[71366770:01C4C856] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iAC1P5bh070779 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Then I don't have to respond to your rudeness. Excellent. > -----Original Message----- > From: Graham [mailto:dtcd@mac.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 3:33 PM > To: Tim Bray > Cc: David Orchard; Atom WG; Walter Underwood > Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces > > On 11 Nov 2004, at 11:13 pm, Tim Bray wrote: > > > On Nov 11, 2004, at 2:53 PM, Graham wrote: > > > >> I ask, once again, what the bloody hell is a mandatory extension? > > > > One in a namespace which is listed in the atom:must-understand > > element. Since we don't currently have must-understand in the draft, > > there is no such thing. -Tim > > Dave: Mandatory extensions beget atom:must-understand > Tim: atom:must-understand begets mandatory extensions > > I have decided that Shrook understands all possible extensions but is > consciously choosing not to display whatever they might contain. Thus I > don't have to implement any of this nonsense. > > Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 20:37:00 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA23872 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:37:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC1QA9r070910; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:26:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC1QAtH070909; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:26:10 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC1Q94C070901 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:26:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from duerst@w3.org) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 040944EFF4; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:26:12 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20041112101157.062719c0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:25:49 +0900 To: "David Orchard" , "Atom WG" From: Martin Duerst Subject: RE: Atom namespace name In-Reply-To: <32D5845A745BFB429CBDBADA57CD41AF0BAEE583@ussjex01.amer.bea .com> References: <32D5845A745BFB429CBDBADA57CD41AF0BAEE583@ussjex01.amer.bea.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 03:35 04/11/12, David Orchard wrote: > >I strongly prefer http URIs. I find the W3C Web Arch is sufficiently >motivating. > >I haven't seen IETF documents that directly refute the Web Arch advocacy >of http URIs for namespace names. I don't recall them sending in any >comments on this during the Web Arch Last Call, so that seems like >implicit endorsement. (just for the record) The IETF (which in the case of liaisons means the IAB) was asked for comments, and sent some comments. >If there's some IETF vs W3C brouhaha on URNS vs >http URIs, let them sort it out. There is definitely a tendency (by at least some people) in the W3C for http URIs. There also seems to be some tendency (by at least some people) in the IETF for URNs. But I definitely wouldn't call this a 'brouhaha'. >And if the IETF won't help with http: URI assignment, I bet the W3C would. I cannot guarantee anything, but I guess we would at least favorably consider such a request. >I idly wonder if you could use the RFC HTTP for the ns. As such, that won't work, because there isn't a single canonical (http) URI for RFCs. To take RFC 2396 as an example, there is at least http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2396.txt and ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc2396.txt. There are also various mirrors. Another issue is that the directory containing the RFC is already really huge, adding more files in there doesn't seem like such a good idea. But of course the idea that the RFC is available from the namespace location is a very good one, and can easily be realized once there is a http namespace. Regards, Martin. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 20:39:55 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA24042 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:39:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC1XLIh072383; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:33:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC1XLhf072382; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:33:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail06.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail06.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.22]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iAC1XKIJ072374 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:33:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 86484 messnum 2830502 invoked from network[83.70.255.40/83-70-255-40.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 12 Nov 2004 01:33:20 -0000 Received: from 83-70-255-40.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?192.168.123.143?) (83.70.255.40) by mail06.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 86484) with SMTP; 12 Nov 2004 01:33:20 -0000 Message-ID: <419412D4.30804@dehora.net> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 01:33:08 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8a1) Gecko/20040520 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom WG Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces: A better proposal References: <4193496C.3010602@dehora.net> <47BABFC4-33D8-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <41936C7D.6010608@dehora.net> <89A1289B-3414-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <1f2ed5cd0411111402361c1226@mail.gmail.com> <4193F3C1.6050006@franklinmint.fm> In-Reply-To: <4193F3C1.6050006@franklinmint.fm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Sayre wrote: > Danny Ayers wrote: > >> >> I think Robert's (unfinished I think) PacePropertyDesign is promising, > > > I don't think so. I pretty much hit the wall with that one. What you have there will work wrt RDF. The entry as data dictionary is a good fit: Thus sprach metadata 2004-05-23T01:45:36Z Seairth Jacobs dehora bill@dehora.net SemanticWeb ... more stuff here ... IOW it's mostly transform happy. Things like Person constructs are trickier - those wind up in their own rdf:Description blocks as above, making the markup ugly. Otoh, if you make these XML literals you hide a lot of good data from the RDF - it's a bit like using CDATA in XML. Last time I looke at this, I hadn't figured out a clean way to express atom:content cheers Bill [LOL. I'm currently shipping a system that has a model for 'events' that does exactly what PacePropertyDesign does with the value of the event - literals, xml or resources. It works well enough, even though the types are disjoint.] From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 22:13:57 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA01897 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:13:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC31sbG090359; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:01:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC31shG090358; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:01:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC31qwu090350 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:01:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CSRhD-0007S9-9O for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 03:01:55 +0000 Message-ID: <4194279F.3000604@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:01:51 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: "Inheritance" is broken Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think we should remove all mentions of inheritance from the spec. The two most damaging areas are atom:author and atom:copyright. When those elements appear in atom:head, the entries don't "inherit" their values. All you can reasonably say about the entry is that it appeared in a feed with those elements. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 22:37:36 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA03781 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:37:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC3SSip094746; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:28:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC3SSa0094738; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:28:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40829.mail.yahoo.com (web40829.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.92.76]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iAC3SNBd094697 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:28:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 6337 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Nov 2004 03:28:20 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=TnG/fVFCelSW5x4YS7TPV9qtRJtEFJpweYYdaS/rWtJiHw1M5MISLrET9Reu8MslgrXPyEfWdCalvm3L///AGfBQZ6ilG4tsbfuxKtpaw6EqAUVnNz5vbwdbZNQsCv8Sz2uaS2q92ecxncN+GzMX77Azv8AnA69EejikCxYd7Wg= ; Message-ID: <20041112032820.6335.qmail@web40829.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [131.107.71.225] by web40829.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:28:20 PST Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:28:20 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat To: Tim Bray Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: <6527DED4-320B-11D9-9947-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --- Tim Bray wrote: > > Dare, you may regard this effort as redundant, but I > see it as my role > to help ensure that this WG ships something that is > acceptably > feature-ful in an acceptable time-frame. Obviously > there are > trade-offs. You are explicitly saying that you > don't think the Atom > format is ready. Please outline for us which set of > features you would > consider it necessary that Atom have to be worth > doing. Are they > represented by existing Paces? If not, do you plan > to create some > covering the missing pieces? I'm saying that at present the Atom adds fragmentation to the world of XML syndication for little or no benefit. Starting a brand war with RSS may be good for certain egos but it is bad for end users. As someone who's been having to explain this mess to people at Microsoft and figure out how to make this stuff more mainstream, further fragmentation with little differentiation between the choices is not a good thing. On the other hand, there isn't much I want from an XML syndication format that can't be done with one of the existing flavors of RSS (1.0 or 2.0) and extensions. So I won't waste your time listing the features I'd like to see in a syndication format. ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 22:39:51 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA03820 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:39:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC3QYqm094442; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:26:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC3QYlB094441; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:26:34 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC3QX3T094435 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:26:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (203.30.247.2) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Fri, 12 Nov 2004 14:26:39 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 14:26:39 +1100 Subject: Re: "Inheritance" is broken From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4194279F.3000604@franklinmint.fm> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12/11/04 2:01 PM, "Robert Sayre" wrote: > I think we should remove all mentions of inheritance from the spec. The > two most damaging areas are atom:author and atom:copyright. When those > elements appear in atom:head, the entries don't "inherit" their values. > All you can reasonably say about the entry is that it appeared in a feed > with those elements. or we could try for a more flexible and explicit form of inheritance, such as: ... ... ... simple, explicit, allows (in an efficient manner) for the use case of half the entries being authored by one person and the other half by another. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 23:20:24 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA06973 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:20:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC49SbD002554; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:09:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC49SIs002553; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:09:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.203]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC49Rwi002546 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:09:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id g11so191326rne for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:09:33 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=dCYI3JdQPgrB5Dgs/Hn4ZVTf41MwxNd6p+dr1mHVQRAWXr1M9bEY/effwHJlxOkPvPGVxnkenUJZIMXIxgEdFx94fqyljWBig0IocQpueyiLXqpy6buVXcrqeprp7txOYzEYjpGd7AS8SXOC4wTMndS0xtkPgmzwvKEol+6/miQ= Received: by 10.38.90.29 with SMTP id n29mr550994rnb; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:09:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.151.28 with HTTP; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:09:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3f1451f5041111200969410e66@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:09:33 -0500 From: Joe Gregorio Reply-To: Joe Gregorio To: Eric Scheid Subject: Re: "Inheritance" is broken Cc: Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <4194279F.3000604@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 14:26:39 +1100, Eric Scheid wrote: > or we could try for a more flexible and explicit form of inheritance, such > as: > > > > ... > ... > > > > ... > > > > simple, explicit, allows (in an efficient manner) for the use case of half > the entries being authored by one person and the other half by another. I'm not saying I agree with this in general, but just as a point of interest, I'll point out that SVG does this. -joe -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 23:21:29 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA07047 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:21:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC4DINj003495; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:13:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC4DIot003494; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:13:18 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC4DGbM003479 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:13:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC4DNui022844 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:13:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I7100FBQT2A7K@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:13:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I7100H98T2A0V@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:13:23 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:13:28 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: "Inheritance" is broken In-reply-to: <4194279F.3000604@franklinmint.fm> To: Robert Sayre Cc: Atom Syntax Message-id: <348E8980-3461-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <4194279F.3000604@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 11, 2004, at 7:01 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: > > I think we should remove all mentions of inheritance from the spec. > The two most damaging areas are atom:author and atom:copyright. When > those elements appear in atom:head, the entries don't "inherit" their > values. All you can reasonably say about the entry is that it appeared > in a feed with those elements. Uh, why? The notion of specifying the author once in the header seems sensible and straightforward, particularly in a one-author shop like mine. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 23:23:41 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA07139 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:23:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC491KE002442; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:09:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC491Ka002441; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:09:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC490Y3002434 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:09:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CSSkC-0002ie-Ty; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 04:09:05 +0000 Message-ID: <4194375D.30708@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:09:01 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dare Obasanjo CC: Tim Bray , Atom WG Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat References: <20041112032820.6335.qmail@web40829.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041112032820.6335.qmail@web40829.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dare Obasanjo wrote: > > I'm saying that at present the Atom adds fragmentation > to the world of XML syndication for little or no > benefit. Starting a brand war with RSS may be good for > certain egos but it is bad for end users. Standardization as "brand war". Interesting. I don't think anyone will be surprised if Microsoft tries to squash an IETF spec in favor of some ad-hoc thing they can control. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 23:29:43 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA07513 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:29:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC4IIib005262; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:18:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC4IIP3005261; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:18:18 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mailgw.afc.gov.au (mail.afc.gov.au [203.202.130.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC4IGHI005214 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:18:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [192.168.25.2] (HELO afc.gov.au) by mailgw.afc.gov.au (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.5) with ESMTP id 1551685 for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:18:11 +1100 Received: from [192.168.25.1] (HELO [192.168.45.41]) by afc.gov.au (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.5) with ESMTP id 1699953 for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:18:11 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:17:54 +1100 Subject: Re: "Inheritance" is broken From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3f1451f5041111200969410e66@mail.gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12/11/04 3:09 PM, "Joe Gregorio" wrote: >> simple, explicit, allows (in an efficient manner) for the use case of half >> the entries being authored by one person and the other half by another. > > I'm not saying I agree with this in general, but just > as a point of interest, I'll point out that SVG > does this. that's good - not because something else does it, but because we can then ask this question: has SVG revealed any deep problems with this mechanism? I'll write up a Pace, but won't bother if there are known problems, deep intractable problems. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 23:50:27 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA09053 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:50:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC4ZfdV009709; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:35:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC4ZfTe009708; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:35:41 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC4Ze9v009702 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:35:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CSTA1-0003uh-Fx; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 04:35:45 +0000 Message-ID: <41943D9D.5090204@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:35:41 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Bray CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: "Inheritance" is broken References: <4194279F.3000604@franklinmint.fm> <348E8980-3461-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <348E8980-3461-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > > Uh, why? The notion of specifying the author once in the header seems > sensible and straightforward, particularly in a one-author shop like > mine. I'm not saying you should have to include author elements in every entry. I'm saying that a copyright/author element in an entry doesn't 'override' the author/copyright of the collective work. There are just two attributions. Put another way, if you have a a feed of ten entries, with one entry attributed to someone else, your feed-level authorship still applies to all ten entries. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 11 23:56:21 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA09559 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:56:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC4k9L2012203; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:46:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC4k9nE012202; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:46:09 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC4k81J012196 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:46:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC4kFNH013673 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:46:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I71001G5UL2S9@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:46:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I7100HMOUL20V@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:46:14 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:46:19 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: "Inheritance" is broken In-reply-to: <41943D9D.5090204@franklinmint.fm> To: Robert Sayre Cc: Atom Syntax Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <4194279F.3000604@franklinmint.fm> <348E8980-3461-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <41943D9D.5090204@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 11, 2004, at 8:35 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: > Tim Bray wrote: > >> Uh, why? The notion of specifying the author once in the header >> seems sensible and straightforward, particularly in a one-author shop >> like mine. > > I'm not saying you should have to include author elements in every > entry. I'm saying that a copyright/author element in an entry doesn't > 'override' the author/copyright of the collective work. There are just > two attributions. > > Put another way, if you have a a feed of ten entries, with one entry > attributed to someone else, your feed-level authorship still applies > to all ten entries. > Once again, why? It's so easy to explain and understand: if there's an in the , then that applies to all the s which don't have their own . Simple, logical, uncomplicated, efficient. Either you're straining at a gnat or I'm failing to see the elephant in the room -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 00:18:22 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA11928 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:18:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC57Nca016759; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:07:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC57NlI016758; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:07:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC57NZK016750 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:07:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CSTei-0005J5-IO; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 05:07:28 +0000 Message-ID: <4194450C.4060102@franklinmint.fm> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:07:24 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Bray CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: "Inheritance" is broken References: <4194279F.3000604@franklinmint.fm> <348E8980-3461-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <41943D9D.5090204@franklinmint.fm> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > It's so easy to explain and understand: if there's an > in the , then that applies to all the s which > don't have their own . Authorship isn't that simple. The in the always applies to all the entries. The best we can do is say the stuff in applies to the feed and the stuff in applies to the entry. IMHO, getting more specific means defining authorship and copyright. Robert Sayre http://www.title17.com/contentStatute/chpt01/sec101.html -------------------------------------------------------- A ''collective work'' is a work, such as a periodical issue, anthology, or encyclopedia, in which a number of contributions, constituting separate and independent works in themselves, are assembled into a collective whole. A ''compilation'' is a work formed by the collection and assembling of preexisting materials or of data that are selected, coordinated, or arranged in such a way that the resulting work as a whole constitutes an original work of authorship. The term ''compilation'' includes collective works. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 00:32:02 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA12904 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:32:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC5Hwd2019143; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:17:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC5HwgU019142; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:17:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr3.netsolmail.com (omr3.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.164]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC5HvKk019127 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:17:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr3.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAC5I1rb016728; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:18:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from boblaptop (68-174-167-137.nyc.rr.com [68.174.167.137]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BYI69061; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:18:00 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411120518.BYI69061@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Robert Sayre'" , "'Tim Bray'" Cc: "'Atom Syntax'" Subject: RE: "Inheritance" is broken Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:17:58 -0500 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcTIc/bDz5x2XaqzTB+A+rIIdT2qPgAAWMbA In-Reply-To: <41943D9D.5090204@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Sayre wrote: > if you have a a feed of ten entries, with one entry attributed > to someone else, your feed-level authorship still applies to > all ten entries. This doesn't seem to make sense. There are two scopes for authorship and copyright in a feed: 1. The feed as a collection 2. An entry within the feed/collection As far as the law is concerned, copyright and authorship can be independently claimed for either or both scopes. What you seem to be saying is that we should simply discard the distinction between these two scopes and support only the second. What benefit do we get for losing the ability to express a claim of authorship/copyright which is limited to the collection and not its entries? Objecting to inheritance does not require discarding the distinction between the two claim scopes. One could say, for instance, that a feed-level claim applies only to the feed as a collection and that entry-level claims must be explicitly stated in the entry -- feed-level data is not inherited. However, I think you'll find that it is so "intuitively obvious" to people that feed-level claims are inherited by entries that it would be an absolute waste of time to try to enforce or even encourage that people don't apply it. Just saying it ain't so doesn't make it not so... bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 00:33:35 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA13197 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:33:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC5Odww020564; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:24:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC5Od9E020563; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:24:39 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC5OcOq020541 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:24:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC5Ojui017311 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:24:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I7100F3UWD87K@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:24:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I7100H0FWCF0V@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:24:44 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:24:51 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: "Inheritance" is broken In-reply-to: <200411120518.BYI69061@ms8.netsolmail.com> To: bob@wyman.us Cc: "'Robert Sayre'" , "'Atom Syntax'" Message-id: <2D70567A-346B-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <200411120518.BYI69061@ms8.netsolmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 11, 2004, at 9:17 PM, Bob Wyman wrote: > However, I think you'll find that it is so "intuitively obvious" to > people > that feed-level claims are inherited by entries that it would be an > absolute > waste of time to try to enforce or even encourage that people don't > apply > it. Just saying it ain't so doesn't make it not so... What Bob said. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 00:36:21 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA13584 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:36:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC5OAKh020458; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:24:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC5OANQ020457; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:24:10 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC5O95o020451 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:24:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC5OGui017147 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:24:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I7100F2ZWCF7K@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:24:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I7100H0FWCF0V@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:24:15 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:24:20 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: "Inheritance" is broken In-reply-to: <4194450C.4060102@franklinmint.fm> To: Robert Sayre Cc: Atom Syntax Message-id: <1B3C58D5-346B-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <4194279F.3000604@franklinmint.fm> <348E8980-3461-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <41943D9D.5090204@franklinmint.fm> <4194450C.4060102@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 11, 2004, at 9:07 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: >> It's so easy to explain and understand: if there's an in the >> , then that applies to all the s which don't have their >> own . > > Authorship isn't that simple. The in the always > applies to all the entries. The best we can do is say the stuff in > applies to the feed and the stuff in applies to the > entry. IMHO, getting more specific means defining authorship and > copyright. You're saying that as though it were axiomatic. I say "on the contrary". The author of 'ongoing' is Tim Bray which should be reflected at the level. On occasion I have had a guest author, e.g. http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2004/04/12/FowlerOnIBM Normally I would not waste bytes by putting in , but for that I would, because it has a different author. Atom has exactly zero chance of capturing the final legal shadings in the notion of "authorship" which anyhow vary from country to country and Atom is not a U.S. thing. I think a gnat is being strained at here. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 00:36:45 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA13635 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:36:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC5UJjC021813; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:30:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC5UJTS021812; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:30:19 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40803.mail.yahoo.com (web40803.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.78.180]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iAC5UIfi021770 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:30:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 72625 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Nov 2004 05:30:20 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=43vyKauMNU4vfEir8PWJBY+NnE7YVY1jSEH6dGXRWkduuH2ClDEFOwcc3jnTwYvQZNf867hnmM2Ch2vdt7uP3ZIhTXHSx0z/c4MRfMdhPK37M426arY4Zg0KF4NRGqsY65/hls0qrEPuZgPYWx1iiqv/6al7lhMJrOTvqhAiCJg= ; Message-ID: <20041112053020.72623.qmail@web40803.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.18.140.193] by web40803.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:30:20 PST Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:30:20 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat To: Robert Sayre Cc: Tim Bray , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <4194375D.30708@franklinmint.fm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --- Robert Sayre wrote: > > Standardization as "brand war". Interesting. I don't > think anyone will > be surprised if Microsoft tries to squash an IETF > spec in favor of some > ad-hoc thing they can control. Nobody at Microsoft cares about your petty little ego struggles with Dave Winer. If I wasn't working on RSS Bandit then I'd be just like the rest of the folks interested in XML syndication at Microsoft and ignore Atom. PS: Like I've said before, I don't represent Microsoft on the list so you can cut the innuendo. ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 00:36:55 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA13658 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:36:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC5UB8i021763; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:30:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC5UBSL021762; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:30:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr5.netsolmail.com (omr5.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.142]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC5UBwX021756 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:30:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr5.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAC5UHlF027851; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:30:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from boblaptop (68-174-167-137.nyc.rr.com [68.174.167.137]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BYI70493; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:30:16 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411120530.BYI70493@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Robert Sayre'" , "'Dare Obasanjo'" Cc: "'Tim Bray'" , "'Atom WG'" Subject: RE: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:30:14 -0500 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcTIcGUFzxscU1v0SXSar1olUr05bQABrm+w In-Reply-To: <4194375D.30708@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Sayre wrote: > Standardization as "brand war". Interesting. I don't think anyone > will be surprised if Microsoft tries to squash an IETF spec in > favor of some ad-hoc thing they can control. I don't believe that it is appropriate to trash Microsoft, or any other vendor, in this fashion in this forum. It does not contribute to our goal of having a reasoned discussion of the issues. As far as Dare's arguments go, he says: "I'm saying that at present the Atom adds fragmentation to the world of XML syndication for little or no benefit." Well, I can assure you that I do see great benefit from Atom over RSS today. Our experience is that Atom feeds are much cleaner, easier to parse, and much more consistent in encoding from site to site than RSS feeds are. Reading RSS feeds is more of an art than a science. There are so many flavors of RSS that it's hard to claim that the code you need to read RSS is a "parser" -- it is more like a heuristic hint processor. i.e. A fancy guessing machine... bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 00:41:16 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA14068 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:41:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC5ScVi021444; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:28:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC5ScKq021443; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:28:38 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC5ScLa021435 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:28:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CSTzG-0005sw-Tm; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 05:28:43 +0000 Message-ID: <41944A06.40805@franklinmint.fm> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:28:38 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Bray CC: bob@wyman.us, "'Atom Syntax'" Subject: Re: "Inheritance" is broken References: <200411120518.BYI69061@ms8.netsolmail.com> <2D70567A-346B-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <2D70567A-346B-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > On Nov 11, 2004, at 9:17 PM, Bob Wyman wrote: > >> However, I think you'll find that it is so "intuitively obvious" to >> people >> that feed-level claims are inherited by entries that it would be an >> absolute >> waste of time to try to enforce or even encourage that people don't apply >> it. Just saying it ain't so doesn't make it not so... > > > What Bob said. -Tim > I am saying that the current spec language is the equivalent of "The author of the book may be considered the author of all the chapters in the book unless someone else is listed as the author of a particular chapter." Yes, intuitively obvious. The spec doesn't need to say this, the language just gets us into trouble, and it has absolutely nothing to do with interoperation in syndication technology. Out it should go. And copyright is even worse. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 00:42:07 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA14142 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:42:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC5YAs0022646; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:34:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC5YAEi022645; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:34:10 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC5Y9W1022637 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:34:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from duerst@w3.org) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2D264F0DF; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:34:14 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20041112141917.06269180@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 14:34:10 +0900 To: Tim Bray , Robert Sayre From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: "Inheritance" is broken Cc: Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: References: <4194279F.3000604@franklinmint.fm> <348E8980-3461-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <41943D9D.5090204@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 13:46 04/11/12, Tim Bray wrote: > >On Nov 11, 2004, at 8:35 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: >> Put another way, if you have a a feed of ten entries, with one entry attributed to someone else, your feed-level authorship still applies to all ten entries. >> >Once again, why? It's so easy to explain and understand: if there's an in the , then that applies to all the s which don't have their own . Simple, logical, uncomplicated, efficient. Either you're straining at a gnat or I'm failing to see the elephant in the room -Tim Another try in the hope to make it even clearer for Robert: Inheritance still works. What is special for and in is that in addition to being inherited like everything else, they also apply (or Robert things they do or should apply; I haven't read the spec) to the feed as such. The feed-level authorship or copyright doesn't apply to 'all ten entries' in the sense of 'each and every single entry', but only in the sense of 'the specific collection of these ten entries together in this combination and composition'. [There is also the issue that authorship and copyright may apply more or less to such collections; as an example, a third party providing a feed with "the last ten entries from Tim Bray's blog" cannot claim much of a copyright because what they do is really trivial; on the other hand, a careful collection/arrangement of ten entries from different authors on related topics in a new and artistic way, together leading to new insights or a big laugh for the reader can very well claim authorship and copyright.] If we take the above interpretation, then the case where it may be easiest to see the difference is the following: A feed with entries all by one author, but in an original composition by a second author. (An obvious example might be a feed put together by the second author to try to show that the first author doesn't know what he's saying and is constantly contradicting himself.) In Robert's interpretation, the feed would have the second author, all the entries would have the first author. In another, purely and only inheriting, interpretation, which does not attribute any importance to the feed or sees such attribution as a completely separate problem, it would be enough to put the first author in the feed. So again: The question is not whether things inherit or not, but whether other than just inheriting, they have their own function on the feed level. My personal opinion: the later would be fine with me. Regards, Martin. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 00:55:17 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA15208 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:55:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC5ljRi025487; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:47:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC5ljMF025486; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:47:45 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC5lisH025479 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:47:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CSUHm-0006ax-3M; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 05:47:50 +0000 Message-ID: <41944E80.8060502@franklinmint.fm> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:47:44 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dare Obasanjo CC: Atom WG Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat References: <20041112053020.72623.qmail@web40803.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041112053020.72623.qmail@web40803.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dare Obasanjo wrote: > > --- Robert Sayre wrote: > >>Standardization as "brand war". Interesting. I don't >>think anyone will >>be surprised if Microsoft tries to squash an IETF >>spec in favor of some >>ad-hoc thing they can control. > > > Nobody at Microsoft cares about your petty little ego > struggles with Dave Winer. Ah, yes. Everyone who disagrees with Dare or has a problem with RSS is engaged in a "petty little ego struggle." > If I wasn't working on RSS > Bandit then I'd be just like the rest of the folks > interested in XML syndication at Microsoft and ignore > Atom. > We should be so lucky! > PS: Like I've said before, I don't represent Microsoft > on the list so you can cut the innuendo. Yet you keep bringing up Microsoft *and* Dave Winer. I think you're leading the list in mentions of Dave Winer and Microsoft. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 00:56:19 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA15352 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:56:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC5jJ9t025021; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:45:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC5jJSB025020; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:45:19 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40821.mail.yahoo.com (web40821.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.92.68]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iAC5jJIE025005 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:45:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 29382 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Nov 2004 05:45:21 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=jXYY9W75GQjIxBnhvDbDqXo7TLs4XO4Z3zVhKeLnfJWjXJPf4KTDsekHVckwrSwGdLyfDX2zCSbuoLBUk++DcvAUFTk5VmeqMblVT2c3YmGyAaMDO2JPjvU4zb45HZgjXGHNeALNLybZitKnWS5bzE94jSbhyaIgASHNVtJkg20= ; Message-ID: <20041112054521.29380.qmail@web40821.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.18.140.193] by web40821.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:45:21 PST Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:45:21 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: RE: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat To: bob@wyman.us, "'Robert Sayre'" Cc: "'Tim Bray'" , "'Atom WG'" In-Reply-To: <200411120530.BYI70493@ms8.netsolmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --- Bob Wyman wrote: > > I don't believe that it is appropriate to trash > Microsoft, or any > other vendor, in this fashion in this forum. It does > not contribute to our > goal of having a reasoned discussion of the issues. > > As far as Dare's arguments go, he says: "I'm saying > that at present > the Atom adds fragmentation to the world of XML > syndication for little or no > benefit." Well, I can assure you that I do see great > benefit from Atom over > RSS today. Our experience is that Atom feeds are > much cleaner, easier to > parse, and much more consistent in encoding from > site to site than RSS feeds > are. Reading RSS feeds is more of an art than a > science. There are so many > flavors of RSS that it's hard to claim that the code > you need to read RSS is > a "parser" -- it is more like a heuristic hint > processor. i.e. A fancy > guessing machine... If Atom was going to be the first or even the second XML syndication format on the block I'd probably share your sentiments. However as for your statements that Atom feeds are in general of higher quality than RSS feeds, I'll direct you to an excerpt from a post made by Bjarne Stroustrup a few years ago[0]. "When C++ was new, one of the things that pleased me most was that discussions about C++ were so much better informed than discussions about most other languages, that the understanding of key concepts were so much better in C++ groups than in, say, C and Pascal groups, and that groups such as comp.lang.c++ were so much more polite and supportive than that of other groups. Clearly, I thought naively, C++ attracts a much better class of programmers, learning C++ helps people to absorb the key concepts of good programming/design, and the resulting success makes people more tolerant and helpful. I was wrong. The phenomenon was real, but it had little to do with C++. In a small dedicated community, life is relatively easy. people do their homework, people have access to reasonable sources of information, gross errors and misconceptions are corrected before they can cause significant harm, compilers and teaching materials are up-to-date, etc. This is not and cannot be the case in a multi-hundred-thousand member community: Some will be taught out of outdated or unsuitable books, some will use antiquated compilers and tools, some will be taught by charlatans, some will be remote from current and reliable news-sources, some will have unsuitable rules and regulations imposed on their work, etc. Also, in a rapidly growing community, most users will be novices." RSS feeds are basically mainstream and are being generated by orders of magnitude more people than are generating Atom feeds many of whom aren't XML syndication geeks. This accounts more for the issues with quality of the feeds than the whether the incomplete and ambiguously defined Atom 0.3 spec is of any higher quality than the RSS 0.91, 1.0 or 2.0 specs. [0] http://www.research.att.com/~bs/blast.html ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 00:59:46 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA15521 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:59:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC5pWTv026338; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:51:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC5pW57026337; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:51:32 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC5pW14026330 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:51:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CSULM-0006kN-Rx; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 05:51:32 +0000 Message-ID: <41944F60.5030300@franklinmint.fm> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:51:28 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dare Obasanjo CC: bob@wyman.us, "'Tim Bray'" , "'Atom WG'" Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat References: <20041112054521.29380.qmail@web40821.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041112054521.29380.qmail@web40821.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dare Obasanjo wrote: > > RSS feeds are basically mainstream But I thought you were working to make it mainstream? Which is it? > and are being > generated by orders of magnitude more people than are > generating Atom feeds many of whom aren't XML > syndication geeks. This accounts more for the issues > with quality of the feeds than the whether the > incomplete and ambiguously defined Atom 0.3 spec is of > any higher quality than the RSS 0.91, 1.0 or 2.0 > specs. > A plausible theory, but you have no way of substantiating it. You're posting on a mailing list full of people who want Atom to exist for a variety of reasons. I'm not sure why you think you're going to convince them otherwise. You're just wasting our time with this trash. Over and over and over again. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 01:02:52 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA16065 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 01:02:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC5u5DV026763; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:56:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC5u5kb026762; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:56:05 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web40802.mail.yahoo.com (web40802.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.78.179]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iAC5u5Uq026748 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:56:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpako@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 81081 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Nov 2004 05:56:07 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=HV1soOz+pUYGnWQlbBzci79un+Nwb+wiFsTPw2neUQBWyZ+dWSo5c9WyFhaq3uY373EQv7bM+jqCtKCRCWULxyk7bYR/+iiJKq4SrQV9o5EkJbpwQalpliT6b9EzAf0ZeVQTCLkED6PNVvNjjtm035kMeBl4s3Spa4U/umECgx8= ; Message-ID: <20041112055607.81079.qmail@web40802.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.18.140.193] by web40802.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:56:07 PST Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:56:07 -0800 (PST) From: Dare Obasanjo Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat To: Robert Sayre Cc: bob@wyman.us, "'Tim Bray'" , "'Atom WG'" In-Reply-To: <41944F60.5030300@franklinmint.fm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --- Robert Sayre wrote: > > A plausible theory, but you have no way of > substantiating it. You're > posting on a mailing list full of people who want > Atom to exist for a > variety of reasons. I'm not sure why you think > you're going to convince > them otherwise. I'm not trying to convincing anyone of anything. Come to think of it I'm not even sure why I'm still bothering to read or post to this list. *unsubscribed* ===== THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222 I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 01:03:26 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA16147 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 01:03:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC5tqWN026709; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:55:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC5tqae026708; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:55:52 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr5.netsolmail.com (omr5.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.142]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC5tqLf026702 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:55:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr5.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAC5twlF004176; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:55:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from boblaptop (68-174-167-137.nyc.rr.com [68.174.167.137]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BYI72878; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:55:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411120555.BYI72878@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Robert Sayre'" , "'Tim Bray'" Cc: , "'Atom Syntax'" Subject: RE: "Inheritance" is broken Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:55:55 -0500 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcTIeH6r2wXkyDWFQ+KutZATeIVRIQAAluFA In-Reply-To: <41944A06.40805@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Sayre wrote: > it has absolutely nothing to do with interoperation in > syndication technology. Out it should go. It *does* have to do with interoperation in that an important element of interoperation is that diverse processors have a common understanding of the meaning of the elements that are being passed around. In this case, it is inevitable that people will do the "intuitively obvious" think and assume that inheritance works -- even if we say it doesn't. People will expect it to continue to work if only because they have become accustomed to it being the expected case with every flavor of RSS as well as common practice with Atom 0.3. Thus, even if it makes more "sense" to make the rules that you've proposed, it will only contribute to interoperability problems in the future as a result of the diversity of implementation and interpretation that will result. These issues become particularly important when you look at the problem of generating composite or aggregate feeds. When you extract an entry from a feed, what is the correct value for author/copyright that should be inserted with that entry into the destination feed? It would make much more sense, I think, to acknowledge that we're stuck with "inheritance" in at least the ownership fields (author and copyright) and provide a mechanism to allow people to override the inheritance when it is inappropriate. This is already assumed to be provided by having entry-level author/copyright statements trump the feed-level statements. Perhaps we should complete this system by ensuring that it is legal to provide null authors and/or copyrights to cover the case where the feed-level data is known to not apply to the entry yet the "correct" values are not known. Ie. We could support . (The meaning would be null or "not known" rather than "none".) Or, how does one express "null" in XML? bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 01:15:45 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA17023 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 01:15:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC64BgB029744; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:04:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC64BfG029743; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:04:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr1.netsolmail.com (omr1.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.162]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC64AuH029733 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:04:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr1.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAC64Gq1016553; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 01:04:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from boblaptop (68-174-167-137.nyc.rr.com [68.174.167.137]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BYI73734; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 01:04:16 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411120604.BYI73734@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Dare Obasanjo'" , "'Robert Sayre'" Cc: , "'Tim Bray'" , "'Atom WG'" Subject: RE: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 01:04:13 -0500 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcTIfE+W33GqIjHDQ6ihlDWmIGu4GAAAHYDg In-Reply-To: <20041112055607.81079.qmail@web40802.mail.yahoo.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dare Obasanjo wrote: >*unsubscribed* Neither that nor the provocation that lead to it was useful. Dare's participation may have been exasperating at times, nonetheless, it was useful. We've lost something here... This WG is diminished by this loss. bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 01:55:51 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA19497 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 01:55:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC6mJIE055246; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:48:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC6mJ8Y055245; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:48:19 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC6mJds055236 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:48:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from duerst@w3.org) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A29F64F0DF; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 01:48:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20041112154758.06391a08@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:48:18 +0900 To: , "'Dare Obasanjo'" , "'Robert Sayre'" From: Martin Duerst Subject: RE: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat Cc: , "'Tim Bray'" , "'Atom WG'" In-Reply-To: <200411120604.BYI73734@ms8.netsolmail.com> References: <20041112055607.81079.qmail@web40802.mail.yahoo.com> <200411120604.BYI73734@ms8.netsolmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 15:04 04/11/12, Bob Wyman wrote: > >Dare Obasanjo wrote: >>*unsubscribed* > >Neither that nor the provocation that lead to it was useful. > >Dare's participation may have been exasperating at times, nonetheless, it >was useful. We've lost something here... This WG is diminished by this loss. +1. Regrads, Martin. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 01:55:51 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA19502 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 01:55:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC6jBOG053713; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:45:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC6jBtl053712; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:45:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC6jBEx053702 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:45:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from duerst@w3.org) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46DD34F0DF; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 01:45:16 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20041112153607.062764d8@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:45:12 +0900 To: Robert Sayre , Tim Bray From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: "Inheritance" is broken Cc: bob@wyman.us, "'Atom Syntax'" In-Reply-To: <41944A06.40805@franklinmint.fm> References: <200411120518.BYI69061@ms8.netsolmail.com> <2D70567A-346B-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <41944A06.40805@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 14:28 04/11/12, Robert Sayre wrote: > >Tim Bray wrote: >> On Nov 11, 2004, at 9:17 PM, Bob Wyman wrote: >> >>> However, I think you'll find that it is so "intuitively obvious" to people >>> that feed-level claims are inherited by entries that it would be an absolute >>> waste of time to try to enforce or even encourage that people don't apply >>> it. Just saying it ain't so doesn't make it not so... >> >> What Bob said. -Tim >> > >I am saying that the current spec language is the equivalent of > >"The author of the book may be considered the author of all the chapters in the book unless someone else is listed as the author of a particular chapter." > >Yes, intuitively obvious. The spec doesn't need to say this, Why exactly does it not have to say that? The discussion we are having there seem to indicate that there are different possible interpretations, so it's better to say which one is the correct one. >the language just gets us into trouble, How exactly? If anything gets us into trouble, it is having or in the first place. There is nothing wrong in saying: "If the author of a chapter is the same as the author of the book, the author of the chapter does not have to be mentioned." (which is the same as your example sentence above, except worded from a producer viewpoint rather than a consumer viewpoint). What we are doing, in other words, is just defining one way to shorten the format and save bandwidth. It is absolutely unrelated to interpretation. >and it has absolutely nothing to do with interoperation in syndication technology. Out it should go. It does have to do with interoperation in syndication technology. If some processors assume they can take some shortcuts, but others don't, we get a mess. In particular, if somebody takes an entry without explicit out of a feed, and puts it into another feed, they damn well are required to take the in the feed and put it into the entry. >And copyright is even worse. Copyright may be worse indeed for interpretation. But we don't define interpretation. We only say what feeds are equivalent to what other feeds, for certain forms of feeds. Regards, Martin. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 02:10:29 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA00380 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 02:10:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC6xTFk062879; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:59:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC6xTTR062877; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:59:29 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC6xTbO062860 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:59:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CSVP9-0000nR-BQ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 06:59:31 +0000 Message-ID: <41945F52.8080902@franklinmint.fm> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 01:59:30 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Duerst CC: Tim Bray , bob@wyman.us, "'Atom Syntax'" Subject: Re: "Inheritance" is broken References: <200411120518.BYI69061@ms8.netsolmail.com> <2D70567A-346B-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <41944A06.40805@franklinmint.fm> <6.0.0.20.2.20041112153607.062764d8@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20041112153607.062764d8@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Martin Duerst wrote: > In particular, if somebody takes > an entry without explicit out of a feed, and puts it into > another feed, they damn well are required to take the in > the feed and put it into the entry. > Except that synthetic feed producers don't seem to want that. They want to put atom:head in atom:entry. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 02:44:31 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA07537 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 02:44:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC7WSiV079247; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:32:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC7WSgU079246; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:32:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from fed1rmmtao09.cox.net (fed1rmmtao09.cox.net [68.230.241.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC7WSKZ079172 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:32:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fielding@gbiv.com) Received: from [192.168.0.100] (really [68.4.71.218]) by fed1rmmtao09.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-117-20041022) with ESMTP id <20041112073222.IVTR14545.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@[192.168.0.100]> for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 02:32:22 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: <200411120604.BYI73734@ms8.netsolmail.com> References: <200411120604.BYI73734@ms8.netsolmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Roy T. Fielding" Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:32:17 -0800 To: Atom WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think it is important to keep in mind that IETF working groups, unlike typical discussion mailing lists, have a given set of tasks to accomplish as a collaborative work. Collaboration requires that those involved be working towards a common goal, even if there is disagreement on how best to get there. Folks who disagree with the goal itself should argue outside the working group, not within. I see no reason to tolerate harbingers of doom unless they are being constructive. If there is a hole, plug it. If there is a missing feature, describe it. If there is a bug, squash it. Collaboration isn't hard once people agree to be constructive. ....Roy From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 04:15:14 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA13362 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 04:15:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC8wOcl031409; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:58:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAC8wO6R031408; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:58:24 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAC8wOBq031391 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:58:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from duerst@w3.org) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A0844F115; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 03:58:22 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20041112173712.05e200b8@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:38:16 +0900 To: Robert Sayre From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: "Inheritance" is broken Cc: Tim Bray , bob@wyman.us, "'Atom Syntax'" In-Reply-To: <41945F52.8080902@franklinmint.fm> References: <200411120518.BYI69061@ms8.netsolmail.com> <2D70567A-346B-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <41944A06.40805@franklinmint.fm> <6.0.0.20.2.20041112153607.062764d8@localhost> <41945F52.8080902@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 15:59 04/11/12, Robert Sayre wrote: > >Martin Duerst wrote: > >> In particular, if somebody takes >> an entry without explicit out of a feed, and puts it into >> another feed, they damn well are required to take the in >> the feed and put it into the entry. >> > >Except that synthetic feed producers don't seem to want that. They want to put atom:head in atom:entry. Right. When I said 'put into the entry' above, I didn't care whether that would be in in or directly in . Regards, Martin. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 05:51:44 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA19187 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 05:51:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACAcnfb098171; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 02:38:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iACAcnkF098170; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 02:38:49 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.200]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACAcmS5098158 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 02:38:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so401147rns for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 02:38:49 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=f6y6wnSIqyiQYeC00u39z+jgeNVGxDyujxWOvmpFLLi90bl2AcDHPtG9g8yVn5x/LcCBcf3PjAw8gfuDQXDkqxeuNndCv/CDpYPgDttgDKpXWTe0RmpR5l0+h//VJjMYKmQrZyfIgkwh9em/fcJWutdSzFCLdHEx8G8d5hWO2tU= Received: by 10.38.206.26 with SMTP id d26mr638405rng; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 02:38:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.40 with HTTP; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 02:38:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd041112023850b474af@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:38:49 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Sam Ruby Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces Cc: Graham , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <4193F44C.7080707@intertwingly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <32D5845A745BFB429CBDBADA57CD41AF0BAEE8DD@ussjex01.amer.bea.com> <9207E4C5-3434-11D9-A4C0-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <4193F44C.7080707@intertwingly.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:22:52 -0500, Sam Ruby wrote: > Whether there every have been a need for such things in syndication land > (or, alternately, whether we can confidently state that they will never > be a need for such a thing) is a separate question. Personally I don't see a real demand need for mU-style mandatory extensions in general in Atom, but they may be the best option for versioning. In the current syndication landscape, RSS 2.0 extensions are few and far between. The "Missing isn't broken" [1] philosophy works well for RSS 1.0 extensions - applications can understand as much or as little of them as they want. I'll pass on lessons learnt from the Userland approach to versioning, but note that RSS 0.9 and RSS 1.0 are compatible at the RDF level, and their versioning/interpretation could be dealt with in a globally meaningful manner in a handful of OWL statements. What may be useful from the RSS 1.0 approach is that multiple versions of the vocabulary can be used together without any need for redefinition. Consider this: 2004-11-11 2004-11-12 ... Cheers, Danny. [1] http://rdfweb.org/mt/foaflog/archives/000047.html -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 05:53:42 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA19268 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 05:53:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACAhIR1001391; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 02:43:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iACAhICw001390; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 02:43:18 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACAhHMD001371 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 02:43:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so401237rns for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 02:43:18 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=nQkLSHDvGN+p03hVaB/4TO6TwVaWMZ0Q5eV8ACiNNQwJGNqp/HbyzNCahNYPFDYGA9MFb7VFhh2LkvjTFNKUtY5nl2QGjFnIukRwR4CxIKY/3pF3ao3/YK3I26jJTlMOfji0Z0ZSoE1vrJSweN5pKWLIQST7bexR4adBbsEa/T8= Received: by 10.38.10.71 with SMTP id 71mr647256rnj; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 02:43:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.40 with HTTP; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 02:43:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0411120243674d5808@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:43:17 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces: A better proposal Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: <419412D4.30804@dehora.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <4193496C.3010602@dehora.net> <47BABFC4-33D8-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <41936C7D.6010608@dehora.net> <89A1289B-3414-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <1f2ed5cd0411111402361c1226@mail.gmail.com> <4193F3C1.6050006@franklinmint.fm> <419412D4.30804@dehora.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iACAhHMD001383 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 01:33:08 +0000, Bill de hÓra wrote: > Things like Person constructs are trickier - those wind up in their > own rdf:Description blocks as above, making the markup ugly. Not got time to look properly right now, but why not: dehora bill@dehora.net -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 06:12:28 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA20299 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 06:12:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACB4jXu016407; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 03:04:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iACB4jG6016406; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 03:04:45 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.195]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACB4hV0016383 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 03:04:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so401864rns for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 03:04:44 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=J05VQZM5y6J8f5dnDKjsLaBN+1Xaklo6Qy0vYqF1p1PPIEemILN4oQ8rzyXbhppUZdiRUwZPSOm2HUxiHq5+ozcZiWdCop5NzIp2IMgftDQ5lbTB794sYtn79gYWV2+C7lbWL1em9DI63/sEuAGDNh8uKaxiqF8NvbgEHRTNee4= Received: by 10.38.206.26 with SMTP id d26mr645380rng; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 03:04:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.40 with HTTP; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 03:04:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd041112030456f9c1ea@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 12:04:44 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: bob@wyman.us Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat Cc: Dare Obasanjo , Robert Sayre , Tim Bray , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <200411120604.BYI73734@ms8.netsolmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20041112055607.81079.qmail@web40802.mail.yahoo.com> <200411120604.BYI73734@ms8.netsolmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 01:04:13 -0500, Bob Wyman wrote: > > Dare Obasanjo wrote: > >*unsubscribed* > > Neither that nor the provocation that lead to it was useful. > > Dare's participation may have been exasperating at times, nonetheless, it > was useful. We've lost something here... A challenge, perhaps? Quoting Dare from earlier in the thread: [[ On the other hand, there isn't much I want from an XML syndication format that can't be done with one of the existing flavors of RSS (1.0 or 2.0) and extensions. So I won't waste your time listing the features I'd like to see in a syndication format. ]] That is exactly what I found exasperating, that his sights were set on what could be done already, not what could be fixed or *improved* over 1.0 and 2.0. People like Dare, Don Park and others are unlikely to see much benefit as long the group aims merely for lowest-common-denominator RSS 2.0, patched and rebranded. Ok, I think it would take considerably more than a months of Sundays to say, persuade Dare of the benefits of the RDF model or whatever, he has a strong naysaying streak. But if at the end of the day this WG doesn't come up with a deliverable that Dare could confidently take to MS and say "this is much better" then we've missed something. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 06:44:32 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA22333 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 06:44:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACBbIX9039536; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 03:37:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iACBbIB6039534; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 03:37:18 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.200]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACBbH4v039516 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 03:37:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so402880rns for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 03:37:18 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=IZ/PJ9hXwKaltQlM0ouaVLPJF+TajlAT4lq7ikppWPkIMibR+qM0wfRBzRVgYg4s7ENFc3+8zFtYm9E19h3QCWuGNaOSh9BkjSVN8QIcWFiYBAcD8K3R6GsRA2yjCaoly8FwmbByXW/XBftBg4UUtzMdu0XwfV0Krm03xjjeGbc= Received: by 10.38.206.73 with SMTP id d73mr863625rng; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 03:37:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.40 with HTTP; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 03:37:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0411120337477018a1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 12:37:18 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: "Inheritance" is broken Cc: Robert Sayre , Tim Bray , bob@wyman.us, Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20041112173712.05e200b8@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200411120518.BYI69061@ms8.netsolmail.com> <2D70567A-346B-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <41944A06.40805@franklinmint.fm> <6.0.0.20.2.20041112153607.062764d8@localhost> <41945F52.8080902@franklinmint.fm> <6.0.0.20.2.20041112173712.05e200b8@localhost> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think there is clearly need for clarification in the spec if there's so much room for (mis)interpretation. I am in favour of inheritance, but it's not altogether straightforward. Say you have a feed F containing entries a, b, c: F = [a, b, c] and authorship is expressed as auth(a, x) The way I read inheritance as it stands was: auth(F, x) => auth(a, x), auth(b, x), auth(c, x) But the idea of authorship of the collection might screw this up, only allowing: auth(F, x) => auth([a, b, c], x) or are you actually asserting both? i.e. auth(F, x) => auth([a, b, c], x), auth(a, x), auth(b, x), auth(c, x) Things get even worse when individual entries have authorship too - which of the following is it? : auth(F, x), auth(c, y) => auth(a, x), auth(b, x), auth(c, x) or auth(F, x), auth(c, y) => auth(a, x), auth(b, x), auth(c, x), auth(c, y) or auth(F, x), auth(c, y) => auth([a, b, c], x), auth(c, y) or the combination of the last of these with each of the first two..? I think if we are to make use of inheritance then we need to differentiate clearly between what is meant by authorship (or whatever) of the feed as an entity in its own right and authorship of the feed as a series of entries, i.e. a, b, c... != [a, b, c...]. I think inheritance would be worthwhile as I think it would make it more likely that attribution data would be available to consumers. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 07:44:59 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA25907 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:44:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACCavE7079412; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 04:36:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iACCavKP079411; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 04:36:57 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail10.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail10.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.26]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iACCatSv079326 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 04:36:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 63545 messnum 1963850 invoked from network[62.77.172.85/62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net]); 12 Nov 2004 12:36:51 -0000 Received: from 62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net (HELO ?200.200.200.35?) (62.77.172.85) by mail10.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 63545) with SMTP; 12 Nov 2004 12:36:51 -0000 Message-ID: <4194AE58.6010600@dehora.net> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 12:36:40 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8a1) Gecko/20040520 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: "Inheritance" is broken References: <4194279F.3000604@franklinmint.fm> <348E8980-3461-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <41943D9D.5090204@franklinmint.fm> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > > On Nov 11, 2004, at 8:35 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: >> >> Put another way, if you have a a feed of ten entries, with one entry >> attributed to someone else, your feed-level authorship still applies >> to all ten entries. >> > Once again, why? It's so easy to explain and understand: if there's an > in the , then that applies to all the s which > don't have their own . Simple, logical, uncomplicated, > efficient. I wonder if it's simple. The fact that it has to be explained repeatedly to one of the editors indicates a problem *. I'm not sure it's simple for multi-author scenarios or composite feeds. It'll work for my blog, but I don't know if it's work for pubsub. Specifically: if the inheritence rules we've outlined can result in false positives (ie an incorrect authoring attribution), it needs to rectified/clarified. Danny's written out the implications, perhaps he can tell us one way or another. Fwiw, damaging data like this is bad form and standardizing it is unlikely to get my consensus - I don't much care if it's legacy or de facto in current formats (as Martin has pointed out). Even if it's not harmful, there's absolutely a need to firm up the text. cheers Bill * One of my pet observations from my relatively short time in this industry is that the consequences of implicit of such inheritence and scoping mechanisms consistently trips people up - I've never seen simple inheritence. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 07:55:16 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA27038 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:55:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACCn0Go083650; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 04:49:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iACCn0Oj083649; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 04:49:00 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACCmxYf083643 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 04:48:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 21460 invoked by uid 17064); 12 Nov 2004 12:49:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.20]) ([83.112.230.128]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 12 Nov 2004 12:49:01 -0000 In-Reply-To: <20041112055607.81079.qmail@web40802.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041112055607.81079.qmail@web40802.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <3562203C-34A9-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: bob@wyman.us, Robert Sayre , "'Tim Bray'" , "'Atom WG'" From: Henry Story Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:48:53 +0100 To: Dare Obasanjo X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think it is a pity that Dare should be unsubscribing just now. My feeling is that we are just about to reach a historic resolution point in the debate between the various formats that will bring together the best of all the flavours of RSS. We are really close to having something that will be greater than all of the previous efforts combined. The beauty is that we are about to show that all sides were correct: - Dare was right in emphasizing namespaces - RDF people were right in emphasizing the combinatorial power of RDF - Tim Bray, and other xml purist, are correct in emphasizing simplicity If we can show how Atom can be extended into RDF-XML, without being by default RDF-XML, in such a way that a simple xml parser with no knowledge of RDF can read default RDF extensions correctly, then we will be on our way to explaining some of the power of the semantic web, but also in helping the semantic web folk perhaps come up with a better version of RDF-XML - call it RDF-XML-2 - such that Atom, as it currently stands really is RDF-XML-2. It may be weird, but I think everyone here has been looking at different parts of a huge elephant, and we are just about to see the elephant. All it requires is a little compromise, a little flexibility of mind, a little openness to the new, and we will have something that is truly great. The RSS wars will seem funny when looked at it from the other side. Henry Story On 12 Nov 2004, at 06:56, Dare Obasanjo wrote: > > I'm not trying to convincing anyone of anything. Come > to think of it I'm not even sure why I'm still > bothering to read or post to this list. > > *unsubscribed* > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 10:26:05 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA12402 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:26:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACFCZaL038272; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:12:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iACFCZVE038271; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:12:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACFCZv1038264 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:12:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 17947 invoked by uid 17064); 12 Nov 2004 15:12:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.20]) ([83.112.230.128]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 12 Nov 2004 15:12:37 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: <7BA10B5A-3260-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> References: <7BA10B5A-3260-11D9-B732-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <4691502F-34BD-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: solving the extensibility problem Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:12:32 +0100 To: "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hmmm, I just thought of a nice one: Comparing the current Atom atom head element Example Feed 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z John Doe with my first attempt at a resembling RDF version On 9 Nov 2004, at 16:03, Henry Story wrote: > > Example Feed > > >2003-12-13T18:30:02Z > > John Doe > > and comparing in particular and > what if we made atom:href a subproperty of rdf:resource? then the current atom link syntax would be good rdf! Henry Story From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 10:44:53 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA13749 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:44:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACFaPND045438; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:36:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iACFaPkq045437; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:36:25 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACFaPxl045430 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:36:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CSdTM-0001Ws-7V; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:36:24 +0000 Message-ID: <4194D876.2090002@franklinmint.fm> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:36:22 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: "Inheritance" is broken References: <4194279F.3000604@franklinmint.fm> <348E8980-3461-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <41943D9D.5090204@franklinmint.fm> <4194AE58.6010600@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: <4194AE58.6010600@dehora.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill de hÓra wrote: > > I wonder if it's simple. The fact that it has to be explained repeatedly > to one of the editors indicates a problem *. The problem may be the editor :) Most people seem to disagree with me. > Fwiw, damaging data like this is bad form and standardizing it is > unlikely to get my consensus - I don't much care if it's legacy or de > facto in current formats (as Martin has pointed out). Even if it's not > harmful, there's absolutely a need to firm up the text. > If we go with this, I want to get rid of the "applies to" language. We should make it as clear as possible that the elements have been elided, and we're just talking about document structure. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 10:55:47 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA14436 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:55:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACFjlbw048404; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:45:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iACFjlcD048403; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:45:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACFjlTC048394 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:45:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004111215454301100n707te>; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:45:44 +0000 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:45:42 -0700 Subject: Re: "Inheritance" is broken Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, November 11, 2004, at 09:17 PM, Eric Scheid wrote: > On 12/11/04 3:09 PM, "Joe Gregorio" wrote: >>> simple, explicit, allows (in an efficient manner) for the use case >>> of half >>> the entries being authored by one person and the other half by >>> another. >> >> I'm not saying I agree with this in general, but just >> as a point of interest, I'll point out that SVG >> does this. > > that's good - not because something else does it, but because we can > then > ask this question: has SVG revealed any deep problems with this > mechanism? > > I'll write up a Pace, but won't bother if there are known problems, > deep > intractable problems. > Anyone considering such a solution might refer to PacePersonRef[1], although it's in the "Closed" list. It did what's described in this thread, and did away with inheritance. Reasons for closing it: http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg09290.html PacePersonRef contains, among its "Key Questions": "2. Do we want entries to inherit the author from the feed if they don't specify one?" This seems simple and straightforward and easy to understand, thus my answer would be "yes', so I guess I'm -1 on this proposal. http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg09490.html PacePersonRef got one -1 from me, and nobody, including its author, objected. Absent pushback, rejected. It's author (yours truly) did not object because hardly anyone had commented on the proposal, and I read silence as ambivalence, and thus felt uninclined to fight for it. Perhaps the proposal should be revisited, with revisions if necessary. Another option would be to create a generalized mechanism for referencing data whereby, for example, any element (and it's child content and elements) with an @id can be @ref'ed, possibly with limitations as to where the @id'ed element can appear. [1] http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PacePersonRef From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 11:22:35 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA16763 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:22:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACGDH2d057947; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:13:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iACGDHhC057946; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:13:17 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACGDGnh057907 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:13:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iACG8kLl024238; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:08:52 GMT In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-10--438041956; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <217DA0D7-34C5-11D9-A4C0-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Graham Subject: Re: "Inheritance" is broken Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:08:44 +0000 To: Antone Roundy X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-10--438041956 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12 Nov 2004, at 3:45 pm, Antone Roundy wrote: > Anyone considering such a solution might refer to PacePersonRef[1], > although it's in the "Closed" list. It did what's described in this > thread, and did away with inheritance. -1 on reopening PacePersonRef. It's boring and unnecessary - a complex solution to a non-problem. I think inheritance as it stands makes perfect sense btw. Graham --Apple-Mail-10--438041956 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMTEyMTYwODQ1WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUe0ehofr8eL2WhpP5uxabzSWz HGIweAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEARI7n5vfTmgR3qXBPekNO/bFC lYLWUG3AfGOyN76JSH7Gm2zM2mkrahCpTpQIFKNUzyOrzUsmQinAFazgvTvP1LIjRndqR8Em748M zrPW1LOqmA2ZPxPkvntqj9Oc+ebQpCxkmPy+zzejlrcTaEQZ/bc+P1yGqtdgL9JBzabdDuz3zv+Q +CJktjoz8vCjPqQw7LFbeBpFuBl/GbEti+qF/gfg2s+LrtPRcAxJ2vFUbTA5q7mbcSSevDJaDzUh X1vpAjsgXsYN8qA0zmtE/ol0ZneVbKncywi62tiOyO0CuwZ/aMsfuf71FefxzRkhbzbdoE2z9I0K DcpD7uWGmU2PdQAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-10--438041956-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 11:25:13 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA17386 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:25:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACG6l80055824; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:06:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iACG6lvD055823; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:06:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr1.netsolmail.com (omr1.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.162]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACG6lb0055812 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:06:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr1.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iACG6bq1026429; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:06:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BYJ97441 (AUTH bob@wyman.us); Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:06:36 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411121606.BYJ97441@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?'Bill_de_h=D3ra'?=" , "'Atom Syntax'" Subject: RE: "Inheritance" is broken Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:06:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-Index: AcTItjV5ucdKTYhKSferF8vc6JHx3gAGi1pQ In-Reply-To: <4194AE58.6010600@dehora.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iACG6lb0055818 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill de hÓra wrote: > I'm not sure it's simple for multi-author scenarios or composite > feeds. It'll work for my blog, but I don't know if it's work > for pubsub. As currently specified, it doesn't work for PubSub. The problem is that any author/copyright statements that we make at feed-level for our composite feeds end up getting inherited by any entry that we publish that doesn't have its own author/copyright information. This is one of the reasons that I have been arguing for PaceHeadInEntry. I want to make it possible to clearly establish the scope for inheritance. In a composite feed, no feed-level data should be inherited by entries. However, I think it is overly onerous requirement to say the same for non-composite feeds. Thus, we need a way to block the inheritance -- hopefully without introducing to many mechanisms that are specific to composite feeds. Personally, I think that PaceHeadInEntry is probably the best compromise here. It allows explicit statement of inheritable data while requiring minimal modification to the definition of an entry. To properly and completely cover the cases here, I think we should also consider allowing "null" values for inheritable fields so that non-composite feed developers can block inheritance. Alternatively, we should have a rule that says: If you need to block inheritance in a non-composite field, simply put a head in the entry that declares the correct values. (An empty might also be useful as a block of all inheritance.) bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 11:46:38 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA19161 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:46:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACGZsS3063367; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:35:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iACGZsks063366; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:35:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.203]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACGZsdc063348 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:35:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lavandowska@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 55so488237wri for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:35:49 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=s/aajZBSnSVYYOKpPgF6KFJBhGSDY/ZI3el3lhyi8iQdQ5OIMMS4jkc+cYkKs29t14UCCs0h+78S8IzPqCQzthyJmp1bNA3bjrbAUPp536VxyREQVcytzg1EsBHVuBTffCx7vtIyBXKGLC3lPfhKuyQEjdBP60qXmI7AF/wotHI= Received: by 10.54.54.63 with SMTP id c63mr342547wra; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:35:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.45.64 with HTTP; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:35:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <96d7d77c041112083563010346@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:35:49 -0600 From: Lance Lavandowska Reply-To: Lance Lavandowska To: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: "Inheritance" is broken Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:45:42 -0700, Antone Roundy wrote: > > > Anyone considering such a solution might refer to PacePersonRef[1], > although it's in the "Closed" list. It did what's described in this > thread, and did away with inheritance. Reasons for closing it: > It's author (yours truly) did not object because hardly anyone had > commented on the proposal, and I read silence as ambivalence, and thus > felt uninclined to fight for it. Perhaps the proposal should be > revisited, with revisions if necessary. > [1] http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PacePersonRef I think reopening PacePersonRef would be best, as it seems to address most of the issues I've seen in this discussion. The point of contention (evidenced by the name of this thread) is inheritence, with three suggestions: 1) no inheritance: feed:author is just for the feed. 2) yes inheritance: the author of the feed is also the author of each entry unless specified otherwise. 3) yes inheritance, with a NULL option: as #2 but provide a mechanism by which an entry can be specified to have an 'unknown' author. Tim Bray's objection was solely based on inheritance. If we can nail that down we should be able to accept this proposal. > Another option would be to create a generalized mechanism for > referencing data whereby, for example, any element (and it's child > content and elements) with an @id can be @ref'ed, possibly with > limitations as to where the @id'ed element can appear. In this regard PacePersonRef is similar to what I suggested (informally)[2]. Categories got wrapped in hierarchy discussions and I didn't see any consensus formed. If you threaten me with "write a Pace" it'll largly be copy-pasted from PacePersonRef. I'll admit that I am just barely XML-literate, but I thought all XML operated on this principle (that you could refer to another node by its @id via a @ref). Lance Lavandowska [2] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11331.html From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 12:30:14 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA22777 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 12:30:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACHFKxR071406; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:15:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iACHFKJR071405; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:15:20 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.143.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACHFJH3071386 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:15:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE96BAF for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:15:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.150.112] (diva.verity.com [192.168.150.112]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id iACHFHKB028462 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:15:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:23:11 -0800 From: Walter Underwood To: Atom WG Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces Message-ID: <80DD84267544138F890B5402@diva.verity.com> In-Reply-To: References: <32D5845A745BFB429CBDBADA57CD41AF0BAEE8DD@ussjex01.amer.bea.com> <9207E4C5-3434-11D9-A4C0-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <51E89363-3437-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On Thursday, November 11, 2004 11:32:32 PM +0000 Graham wrote: > > I have decided that Shrook understands all possible extensions but is > consciously choosing not to display whatever they might contain. Thus I > don't have to implement any of this nonsense. Extensions might not be separate displayable things. Maybe it is info for a micropayment scheme. In general Shrook would have to implement it, but the implementation is very simple. If the doc has MustUnderstand extensions, and the software doesn't implement all of them, then the software must reject the entire document. Not just the extensions, the whole thing. Compare it against the local list, then toss or pass the whole feed. I'm not arguing for or against MustUnderstand, just trying to keep this accurate. wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect Verity Ultraseek From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 12:39:37 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA23847 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 12:39:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACHX8fv076798; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:33:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iACHX8gI076797; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:33:08 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.143.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACHX7e2076751 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:33:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42AE8CB for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:33:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.150.112] (diva.verity.com [192.168.150.112]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id iACHX5KB028497 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:33:06 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:41:00 -0800 From: Walter Underwood To: "'Atom Syntax'" Subject: RE: "Inheritance" is broken Message-ID: <162D0DB11D93FEFB70A29F8F@diva.verity.com> In-Reply-To: <200411120555.BYI72878@ms8.netsolmail.com> References: <200411120555.BYI72878@ms8.netsolmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On Friday, November 12, 2004 12:55:55 AM -0500 Bob Wyman wrote: > > It would make much more sense, I think, to acknowledge that we're > stuck with "inheritance" in at least the ownership fields (author and > copyright) and provide a mechanism to allow people to override the > inheritance when it is inappropriate. This is already assumed to be provided > by having entry-level author/copyright statements trump the feed-level > statements. Perhaps we should complete this system by ensuring that it is > legal to provide null authors and/or copyrights to cover the case where the > feed-level data is known to not apply to the entry yet the "correct" values > are not known. Ie. We could support . (The meaning would be > null or "not known" rather than "none".) Or, how does one express "null" in > XML? I like this, though I'd prefer something really clear, like . I'd prefer a different term than "inheritance", because that brings up classes and type systems for a lot of people. How about "defaulting", "elision", "use value from the feed", or "cascading values". Hmm, kinda like that last one. wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect Verity Ultraseek From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 13:29:58 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA28705 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:29:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACIJsZm093221; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:19:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iACIJsSP093220; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:19:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACIJrwt093212 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:19:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so423227rns for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:19:57 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=fZYId47Rrz1k0uIPSwNVJ27IKtHhLN6Je7ufuYUnO4KeqHYWH7xtykvP++x/wRc8qm7N1vdv+YCwr0fcASZEIlgzFW8Z0o+gwWKDq4MTeECCQ7yOoz9Q7Ujx7ZyW61rz4dpCPVx1GKUb9DnfTOV3kNe9BTJBsjLkIvGYJCMLMio= Received: by 10.38.206.26 with SMTP id d26mr808747rng; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:19:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.40 with HTTP; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:19:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd041112101941da76f3@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 19:19:56 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Walter Underwood Subject: Re: "Inheritance" is broken Cc: Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: <162D0DB11D93FEFB70A29F8F@diva.verity.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200411120555.BYI72878@ms8.netsolmail.com> <162D0DB11D93FEFB70A29F8F@diva.verity.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:41:00 -0800, Walter Underwood wrote: Details aside - > I'd prefer a different term than "inheritance", +1 -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 13:43:24 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA00574 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:43:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACIaVsI000673; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:36:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iACIaVaS000672; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:36:31 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ussjmh01.bea.com (ussjmh01-ext.bea.com [63.96.162.5]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACIaUx0000666 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:36:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dorchard@bea.com) Received: from ussjfe02.amer.bea.com (ussjfe02.bea.com [172.16.120.52]) by ussjmh01.bea.com (Switch-3.0.5/Switch-3.0.0) with ESMTP id iACIaYZL018306; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:36:34 -0800 Received: from ussjex01.amer.bea.com ([172.16.120.50]) by ussjfe02.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:36:34 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Published extensibility Paces Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:36:33 -0800 Message-ID: <32D5845A745BFB429CBDBADA57CD41AF0BAEF147@ussjex01.amer.bea.com> Thread-Topic: Published extensibility Paces Thread-Index: AcTI29W1qKPB25r7RVWULRODf2VzrwACXkVg From: "David Orchard" To: "Walter Underwood" , "Atom WG" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Nov 2004 18:36:34.0283 (UTC) FILETIME=[892F53B0:01C4C8E6] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iACIaUx0000667 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit That's correct. There are often concerns about the scope of mustUnderstand and failures. One of the proposals in the past was that a mustUnderstand on an entry would not cause a feed aggregator to fail. The problem is what is a feed aggregator? XML defines 2 conformance levels, well-formed and valid. Atom could easily do something similar, say a "feed" and an "entry" conformance level for mU. I had asked for some explanation of various profiles previously but didn't get any response. But even that definition can be complex and people are leery about defining any kind of processor/conformance/profile levels. Another approach is to split the mU into 2 levels: feed mUs and entry mUs. BTW, this is roughly why SOAP introduce the "role" attribute. But I haven't been able to clearly think through how soap roles could be used in combination with the various models of processors to handle mU. Cheers, Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom- > syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Walter Underwood > Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 9:23 AM > To: Atom WG > Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces > > > --On Thursday, November 11, 2004 11:32:32 PM +0000 Graham > wrote: > > > > I have decided that Shrook understands all possible extensions but is > > consciously choosing not to display whatever they might contain. Thus I > > don't have to implement any of this nonsense. > > Extensions might not be separate displayable things. Maybe it is info > for a micropayment scheme. > > In general Shrook would have to implement it, but the implementation > is very simple. > > If the doc has MustUnderstand extensions, and the software doesn't > implement all of them, then the software must reject the entire document. > Not just the extensions, the whole thing. Compare it against the local > list, > then toss or pass the whole feed. > > I'm not arguing for or against MustUnderstand, just trying to keep > this accurate. > > wunder > -- > Walter Underwood > Principal Architect > Verity Ultraseek From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 14:04:44 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA02466 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 14:04:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACIumbT006433; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:56:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iACIumLu006432; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:56:48 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iACIulVj006397 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:56:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iACItcei028375; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:55:44 GMT In-Reply-To: <80DD84267544138F890B5402@diva.verity.com> References: <32D5845A745BFB429CBDBADA57CD41AF0BAEE8DD@ussjex01.amer.bea.com> <9207E4C5-3434-11D9-A4C0-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <51E89363-3437-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <80DD84267544138F890B5402@diva.verity.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-11--428028570; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <71EEF2B8-34DC-11D9-A4C0-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Cc: Atom WG From: Graham Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:55:38 +0000 To: Walter Underwood X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-11--428028570 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12 Nov 2004, at 5:23 pm, Walter Underwood wrote: > Extensions might not be separate displayable things. Maybe it is info > for a micropayment scheme. How would mustUnderstand be used here? If we have at least one concrete example on the table, I might start taking this stuff seriously. > If the doc has MustUnderstand extensions, and the software doesn't > implement all of them, then the software must reject the entire > document. > Not just the extensions, the whole thing. Compare it against the local > list, > then toss or pass the whole feed. I will be comparing them against a local list that happens to automatically expand to include all encountered extensions. Graham --Apple-Mail-11--428028570 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMTEyMTg1NTM5WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUAJYusu7WTHuWixJxtBG4EaHz WHkweAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEAkMS5y3ONIPD4fdOic8Tkm+5A 7AaQknnxqSP8d4KhLrjajs4wfF+YjK5LI6YW303IJ1rDSjvQzZY0toHy0AtDbTTFvDON1c56RGEO Mw7b5mG5NPgx22HvBwpLMNOG4+OSKSo+CeCFH2hC6x2S1BhYao1TiSHAmG4FqSXLUuEYtmV7nTtB ECaPjHXytQP+RXwMhxMhSVhal5aSvCF+q3W5MZytNvUl0KeNdiGaVEEQ1Gz4XwUW9JEY0PJyJ9jA q7DZzfdZpW2XH/82yQq8DUJ4l3CluhVWsJWOWqq+iV0Vs+Kumw7C8lhH/gjtpDiGSenazhi9fKcy Wjqj4EQ2Hb9cJgAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-11--428028570-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 20:03:17 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA17452 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 20:03:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAD0mCTE023281; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:48:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAD0mCJ6023280; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:48:12 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAD0mBCF023223 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:48:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from quark (58.80-202-95.nextgentel.com [80.202.95.58]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6233F2DB2; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 01:48:02 +0100 (MET) To: "Lance Lavandowska" Cc: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: Explicit deletion of feed items? References: <96d7d77c0411110840659cfbb1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 01:49:37 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <96d7d77c0411110840659cfbb1@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:40:25 -0600, Lance Lavandowska wrote: > I thought the whole point was to indicate to feed readers that a > particular entry was revoked/removed/deleted/whatever. Hence this > discussion should stay in 'syntax' unless I misunderstand the scope of > 'protocol'. You wrap an action in XML. I think actions belong in the protocol. And yes, I think 'published' (or 'issued') and 'modified' are actions as well, and have said on several occasions that I think they belong with the protocol, not the format. -- Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- asbjornu@hotmail.com «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 20:11:41 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA17921 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 20:11:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAD16l0B029141; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:06:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAD16lBX029140; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:06:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAD16lfh029098 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:06:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from quark (58.80-202-95.nextgentel.com [80.202.95.58]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 660462F0D; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 02:06:47 +0100 (MET) To: "Tim Bray" Cc: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: Posted PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat References: <6451CEF8-31D3-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 02:08:22 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <6451CEF8-31D3-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:13:17 -0800, Tim Bray wrote: > The world can use Atom, sooner rather than later. The > return-on-investment of further WG time invested in polishing something > that's already pretty good is starting to be very unattractive. > Particularly when the Protocol draft seriously needs work and progress. I agree that the world should use Atom sooner than later, but think we should bake a few more things into the format specification before we say it's finished. Plus, the specification is in urgent lack of examples, a couple of missing chapters, etc. What if we try to set a tentative «goal date» for the format? Then we freeze it, work out all the details in the text so the freezed text gets polished and perfect, and then we move on to the protocol one hundred percent? -- Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- asbjornu@hotmail.com «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 20:13:20 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA18006 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 20:13:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAD13NH4027827; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:03:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAD13NYX027826; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:03:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAD13MgI027788 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:03:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from quark (58.80-202-95.nextgentel.com [80.202.95.58]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id B528F2F36; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 02:03:22 +0100 (MET) To: "Danny Ayers" Cc: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted References: <1f2ed5cd041109112237fb3449@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 02:04:58 +0100 In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd041109112237fb3449@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:22:38 +0100, Danny Ayers wrote: > Very similar to PaceCategoryElement but reducing the lock on the > hierarchical/slash scheme. I believe this should be usable with most > categorization schemes. I like it, but would prefer @label as the element's content. Other than that, it seems to cover all categorization needs I have. So: +1. -- Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- asbjornu@hotmail.com «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 20:13:47 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA18054 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 20:13:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAD18Iog030058; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:08:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAD18IW0030057; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:08:18 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAD18IEw030015 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:08:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from quark (58.80-202-95.nextgentel.com [80.202.95.58]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 446D22F99; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 02:08:18 +0100 (MET) To: "Tim Bray" Cc: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Message-ID: From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 02:09:53 +0100 In-Reply-To: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 11:28:18 -0800, Tim Bray wrote: > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceCategoryElement I like PaceCategoryRevised a couple of notches better, so I'd say I'm +0.5 on PaceCategoryElement. -- Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- asbjornu@hotmail.com «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 20:32:34 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA19386 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 20:32:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAD1Q8Qe035125; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:26:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAD1Q81p035124; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:26:08 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAD1Q7K2035115 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:26:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAD1QBui008932 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:26:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I7300MTYFZLB3@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:26:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I7300JX8FZLGS@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:26:09 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:26:16 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement In-reply-to: To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Cc: Atom-Syntax Message-id: <03C9EE6E-3513-11D9-89E1-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iAD1Q7K2035119 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Nov 12, 2004, at 5:09 PM, Asbjørn Ulsberg wrote: > >> http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceCategoryElement > > I like PaceCategoryRevised a couple of notches better, so I'd say I'm > +0.5 on PaceCategoryElement. Me too. I'm going to mark PaceCategoryElement withdrawn. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 12 21:30:45 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA21865 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 21:30:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAD2HtBl050529; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:17:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAD2HtsY050528; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:17:55 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.198]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAD2HsK1050510 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:17:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id g11so89275rne for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:18:00 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=fye5sJ8BXYvr5nd40zxV5xFa1DJwzt64KnnmBOXg79XGP3FwLTmCK0SV9VMpMaQm775n2bUsoaJLKxRKw3nqXMQagOUfgSj4UU2/Fv0tpKk/g7C6xjI0HHHtg4swymSf4v1hAPsmms/niyBL5qfJjZXaWGZRcsH70jM7zOL9g5E= Received: by 10.38.86.46 with SMTP id j46mr9623rnb; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:17:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.151.28 with HTTP; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:17:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3f1451f504111218173cc24529@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 21:17:24 -0500 From: Joe Gregorio Reply-To: Joe Gregorio To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted Cc: Danny Ayers , Atom-Syntax In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <1f2ed5cd041109112237fb3449@mail.gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iAD2HtK1050516 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 02:04:58 +0100, Asbjørn Ulsberg wrote: > > On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:22:38 +0100, Danny Ayers > wrote: > > > Very similar to PaceCategoryElement but reducing the lock on the > > hierarchical/slash scheme. I believe this should be usable with most > > categorization schemes. > > I like it, but would prefer @label as the element's content. > Other than that, it seems to cover all categorization needs I have. > > So: +1. I have suggested the same modification. Even with that, I am +1 on PaceCategoryRevised. -joe -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Nov 13 04:00:14 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA23980 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 04:00:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAD8jQbM011676; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 00:45:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAD8jQ9H011675; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 00:45:26 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAD8jMvh011261 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 00:45:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (203.30.247.2) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Sat, 13 Nov 2004 19:44:50 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 19:44:50 +1100 Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iAD8jPvh011668 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 13/11/04 12:04 PM, "Asbjørn Ulsberg" wrote: > I like it, but would prefer @label as the element's content. +1 e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Nov 13 04:37:45 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA26644 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 04:37:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAD9TZUv038417; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 01:29:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAD9TZPj038415; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 01:29:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAD9TZFj038345 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 01:29:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 88257 invoked by uid 17064); 13 Nov 2004 09:29:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.20]) ([83.112.230.128]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 13 Nov 2004 09:29:27 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <80D42852-3556-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 10:29:22 +0100 To: "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reading this thread really quickly I noticed that there are a few overlapping problems that are tending to make the thinking about this a little more complicated that necessary: - do the feed head and entry elements resemble themselves enough? - is a Feed an Entry? - is a Feed a sequence of Entries with the head element being special? - how does making changes affect the already dodgy inheritance problem? - Bob Wyman's proposals about needing to keep the whole metadata of a feed for an Entry. If the feed head elements can really be seen to be the same as an Entry element, I am all for the simplification. There are then a couple of ways to model this: Feed is a Entry or Feed is a sequence of Entries. The "inheritance" problem should take second place to any of the obove issues. I also need to spend more time really understanding Bob Wyman's point to see how that affects the problem or if there are other solutions to it. But I have to leave, Henry Story On 10 Nov 2004, at 04:24, Eric Scheid wrote: > > On 10/11/04 10:43 AM, "Tim Bray" wrote: > >> It seems to >> me that and are two different bundles of metadata, in >> which a lot of the same elements can appear. > > and remember that the reason many of the elements which appear > in > is just as a shorthand means of eliminating duplication in every > . Remove those from and you've got much less overlap, > right? > > e. > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Nov 13 05:36:18 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA29233 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 05:36:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iADAPihx073265; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 02:25:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iADAPikH073264; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 02:25:44 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iADAPhSI073254 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 02:25:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so450106rns for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 02:25:44 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=YIrdyE/imX87Th2T3fwZBaZy9Y5GYoskRhw+GSxQnyPb7z0ggAjjpfYvOIXzvBLmR8mEcGRi25MmPPTQURE3yj+l2PpbnqnT2SOHrNw7G+l7DK52oGxpUHPxWWz5oj4fKfBm3/hd66KXpNb3NRhuQTJkD6JPHLcCmH+AOM3wmpk= Received: by 10.38.26.40 with SMTP id 40mr200043rnz; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 02:25:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.40 with HTTP; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 02:25:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd041113022543399f41@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 11:25:44 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Subject: Re: Explicit deletion of feed items? Cc: Lance Lavandowska , Atom-Syntax In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <96d7d77c0411110840659cfbb1@mail.gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iADAPiSI073257 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 01:49:37 +0100, Asbjørn Ulsberg wrote: > > On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:40:25 -0600, Lance Lavandowska > wrote: > > > I thought the whole point was to indicate to feed readers that a > > particular entry was revoked/removed/deleted/whatever. Hence this > > discussion should stay in 'syntax' unless I misunderstand the scope of > > 'protocol'. > > You wrap an action in XML. I think actions belong in the protocol. And > yes, I think 'published' (or 'issued') and 'modified' are actions as well, > and have said on several occasions that I think they belong with the > protocol, not the format. I see your point, but tend to disagree. "modified" - yes, there would be a strong case for that being in protocol, if it's aimed right down at machine-bits level. But "updated" is up with the content as top-level publisher/reader-oriented information. Similarly "deleted" (or whatever) in the form it has been proposed isn't really saying some piece of data has necessarily changed, rather that the publisher wishes to provide some addtional information about that data (it's no longer wanted). It's very much up to the client, likely in the UI on how to respond to that piece of information, as in the case of "updated". We could push "deleted" down to the protocol level, and have it correspond to HTTP DELETE at the other end of the pipe. I could be wrong, but I don't think that's what is required. I think what's needed is more "remove from view" than "remove every trace". An attribute of the content, rather than the total disappearance of the content (most of the time it probably will be disappeared, but that's up to the implementation). It also sidesteps any ideas of a resource no longer existing, rather than just a particular representation. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Nov 13 06:18:35 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA00675 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 06:18:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iADB7IQI096321; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 03:07:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iADB7Imo096320; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 03:07:18 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.197]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iADB7Hgd096306 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 03:07:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so450594rns for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 03:07:18 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=WaOcinv+n9MIDbRJUjcGKhiV6LvxvnFaSUdkWNDFhkVx6d/5kiWt0LlwW5jyLbo8opBTfGFFzR7Aijx2iERKcafi0wAMctwq+ut8U9Ni4FKdCenyEP5pqRDlvL15+EqDgAiWrD9/+Yw4CDbEM0RqI5Lqspf9NTJ2GlpYJfwH68E= Received: by 10.38.26.40 with SMTP id 40mr208207rnz; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 03:07:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.40 with HTTP; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 03:07:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd041113030725ece1d9@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:07:18 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: PaceCategoryRevised details Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There have been some statements of preference in the PaceCategoryRevised thread already, but to try and make life a little easier for the editors - The current proposal has this syntax (uri, string, string): There have been variations suggested, all of which have merit: Element name: 0. (current) 1. 2. Element content: 0. none (current) 1. label 2. term I think the current choice of optional/mandatory makes most sense. It allows simple, minimal versions of the element to appear, with the user agent probably defaulting the label value to the term value etc. While still allowing more complex forms. But just in case: term mandatory: 0. false 1. true (current) scheme mandatory: 0. false (current) 1. true label mandatory: 0. false (current) 1. true -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Nov 13 09:22:13 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA07493 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:22:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iADEAWoA078601; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 06:10:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iADEAWLF078600; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 06:10:32 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iADEAVCR078590 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 06:10:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iADE9PpS029942; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:09:35 GMT In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd041113030725ece1d9@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f2ed5cd041113030725ece1d9@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-12--358801769; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Graham Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised details Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:09:25 +0000 To: Danny Ayers X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-12--358801769 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 13 Nov 2004, at 11:07 am, Danny Ayers wrote: > with the user agent probably defaulting the label value to the term > value > term mandatory: > 0. false > 1. true (current) > > scheme mandatory: > 0. false (current) > 1. true > > label mandatory: > 0. false (current) > 1. true Maybe I'm biased because of the kind of product I work on, but I'd think the most import part is the label to show the user, and being able to relate back to a vocabulary is a secondary concern. I wouldn't want to default to showing term, since it may well be a number or a URI. Graham --Apple-Mail-12--358801769 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMTEzMTQwOTI2WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUSMdbbE4+qusC0Elw6YMwbRVK irkweAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEAopKTaGCCKY6Nct8/vxjtQQKS UHxEjc/VtsJqitfjGnZTNkRydXV1gg8nj2DYGogppfhDHalNy9ScA3zYnpM4aWYrio0T9vnp7bZ9 L48nbBmqIjzCo5S4i+iVTb5wApsNrst8dl3uzA86Bl9lo3FApkb1FpPmY0FncRQm0j0mqJAdFX0c jMHmZC75Umrcdh+Me43apL+cyRDzWXZf9M2b2oQD7F8pTQ4t5Xu/ujAeJ8+F1thROX5neCL8KyAg Kf+/WezXiMJtCumeVlgV70Uiyfwl3zVdiyWuxWL+fG0KYbBnJMPbS3ptMHeu0ccVBIo96T7KHjd5 Mv1pyMtuguxemQAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-12--358801769-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Nov 13 10:23:54 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA12115 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 10:23:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iADFEajP094771; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:14:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iADFEawQ094770; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:14:36 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.192]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iADFEZnH094721 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:14:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id g11so138182rne for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:14:35 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=qktNIpjCNMgD6yvmV/gJyT3vtJQp6B/fPqDWaEuw4OYGPGY43qJ8CvNE9e19eVUU/vimdEtrbpJbpwpIr/UippvYD9ep+6GLSYVNmC+jiqLF92h0KCdOovft9lB4fBYQ08hVXt7O8MixZICY8X+WUeDAKMlGZho377XIgkmhDzs= Received: by 10.38.152.67 with SMTP id z67mr409784rnd; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:14:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.151.28 with HTTP; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:14:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3f1451f504111307141954b526@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 10:14:34 -0500 From: Joe Gregorio Reply-To: Joe Gregorio To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised posted Cc: Danny Ayers , Atom-Syntax In-Reply-To: <3f1451f504111218173cc24529@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <1f2ed5cd041109112237fb3449@mail.gmail.com> <3f1451f504111218173cc24529@mail.gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iADFEZnH094757 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 21:17:24 -0500, Joe Gregorio wrote: > On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 02:04:58 +0100, Asbjørn Ulsberg > > > wrote: > > > > On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:22:38 +0100, Danny Ayers > > wrote: > > > > > Very similar to PaceCategoryElement but reducing the lock on the > > > hierarchical/slash scheme. I believe this should be usable with most > > > categorization schemes. > > > > I like it, but would prefer @label as the element's content. > > Other than that, it seems to cover all categorization needs I have. > > > > So: +1. > > I have suggested the same modification. Even with that, > I am +1 on PaceCategoryRevised. Sorry, that was a typo, I meant to say that I had suggested the *opposite* modification, i.e. that @term be made the element's content. -joe -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Nov 13 10:29:44 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA12317 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 10:29:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iADFLCSp096302; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:21:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iADFLC4H096301; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:21:12 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail09.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail09.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iADFLB1n096272 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:21:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 91445 messnum 2002661 invoked from network[83.70.255.40/83-70-255-40.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 13 Nov 2004 15:21:08 -0000 Received: from 83-70-255-40.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?192.168.123.143?) (83.70.255.40) by mail09.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 91445) with SMTP; 13 Nov 2004 15:21:08 -0000 Message-ID: <41962663.6030507@dehora.net> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:21:07 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8a1) Gecko/20040520 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: Posted PaceCategoryElement References: <57C45610-31BC-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <03C9EE6E-3513-11D9-89E1-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <03C9EE6E-3513-11D9-89E1-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tim Bray wrote: > > On Nov 12, 2004, at 5:09 PM, Asbjørn Ulsberg wrote: > >> >>> http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceCategoryElement >> >> >> I like PaceCategoryRevised a couple of notches better, so I'd say I'm >> +0.5 on PaceCategoryElement. > > > Me too. I'm going to mark PaceCategoryElement withdrawn. -Tim I'm warm on it; two things. 1. The current text implies you should use taxonomies. I suggest this alternate text, which implies you can and here's how. """ The atom:category element contains information about a category to which an Atom feed or entry is associated. It has one attribute, "domain", which is a URI that identifies a categorization scheme. Its textual content SHOULD be a string. Where taxonomic categories are used, their parts MUST separated by a forward slash ("/") character. """ 2. My reading is that the presence of @domain is a MUST. I would prefer it to be a MAY. Not all categories need have URIs. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Nov 13 10:43:49 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA13620 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 10:43:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iADFZ1w7000332; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:35:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iADFZ11V000331; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:35:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iADFZ09Y000322 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:35:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so453928rns for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:35:02 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=gmXVz2wqxVDbXxtWwA7tY/nJTRaGRolT8tA3Zd2RLBX87q29Ps2AhXvjbX0NIXV3qkYV7cjtsHqQdCJkVIajZBNgwA/84cRkBdlOHQxxrtubKGJ3ZmCRACA+kUML53aqE/rapZVylDCS+HzCNENV0MlqWzu1Pp/1Ze63LcmYqMw= Received: by 10.38.179.67 with SMTP id b67mr269581rnf; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:35:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.40 with HTTP; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:35:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04111307357236b318@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 16:35:02 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Graham Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised details Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <1f2ed5cd041113030725ece1d9@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:09:25 +0000, Graham wrote: > On 13 Nov 2004, at 11:07 am, Danny Ayers wrote: > > > > with the user agent probably defaulting the label value to the term > > value > > > term mandatory: > > 0. false > > 1. true (current) > > > > scheme mandatory: > > 0. false (current) > > 1. true > > > > label mandatory: > > 0. false (current) > > 1. true > > Maybe I'm biased because of the kind of product I work on, but I'd > think the most import part is the label to show the user, and being > able to relate back to a vocabulary is a secondary concern. I wouldn't > want to default to showing term, since it may well be a number or a > URI. Yep, sure - forget "probably defaulting", that would be implementation-specific. But do you think the optional/mandatory setup needs rearranging? The reason for giving term super-extra-powers was that it should, in principle at least, be possible to get hold of a useful label given the (scheme+)term, but not necessarily the other way around. What does your product suggest? Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Nov 13 12:14:33 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA17573 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:14:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iADH2HW1021696; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:02:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iADH2H4a021695; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:02:17 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr1.netsolmail.com (omr1.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.162]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iADH2Cxs021644 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:02:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr1.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iADH24q1019254; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:02:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from boblaptop (68-174-167-137.nyc.rr.com [68.174.167.137]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BYM67336; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:02:03 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411131702.BYM67336@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Henry Story'" , "'Atom WG'" Subject: RE: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:02:00 -0500 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcTJZUiXAG/zCMJAS4af8A93tan0CAAO3new In-Reply-To: <80D42852-3556-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henry Story wrote: > I also need to spend more time really understanding Bob Wyman's > point to see how that affects the problem or if there are other > solutions to it. Perhaps this might make it easier: Imagine that there are two feeds that you wish to read: A and B. Now, imagine that you have two choices for how to read the content of these two feeds: 1. Receive each feed individually 2. Or, Receive both feeds in a composite feed I argue that your choice should make no difference. There should be no information loss as a result of passing entries through a composite feed. In fact, if all of the entries of a source feed are passed through a composite feed, you should be able to faithfully reconstruct the original source feed. (You might think of the composite feed creation process as one of "tangling" multiple feeds. Then, you should be able to "untangle" them.) Since it is clear that at least some feed-level metadata is part of the information associated with an entry, I contend that when we remove entries from their source feeds, we should copy that meta-data as well. The feed-level metadata is just as much a part of an entry as are the children elements of the element. bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Nov 13 12:55:17 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA20474 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:55:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iADHkTXv030895; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:46:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iADHkT6N030894; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:46:29 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iADHkSsf030888 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:46:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iADHkVNH019927 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 10:46:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe7 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I74003T1PDIY8@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 10:46:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I7400DP7PDIRP@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 10:46:30 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:46:38 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised details In-reply-to: To: Graham Cc: Danny Ayers , atom-syntax@imc.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1f2ed5cd041113030725ece1d9@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 13, 2004, at 6:09 AM, Graham wrote: > Maybe I'm biased because of the kind of product I work on, but I'd > think the most import part is the label to show the user, and being > able to relate back to a vocabulary is a secondary concern. I wouldn't > want to default to showing term, since it may well be a number or a > URI. +1 -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Nov 13 12:57:39 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA20618 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:57:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iADHm7An030984; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:48:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iADHm7u9030983; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:48:07 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iADHm61I030976 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:48:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iADHmAui016217 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 10:48:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe7 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I74003XKPG9Y8@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 10:48:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.201.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0I7400DS2PG8RJ@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 10:48:09 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:48:16 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown In-reply-to: <80D42852-3556-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> To: Henry Story Cc: "'Atom WG'" Message-id: <32C1A204-359C-11D9-89E1-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <80D42852-3556-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 13, 2004, at 1:29 AM, Henry Story wrote: > > Reading this thread really quickly I noticed that there are a few > overlapping problems > that are tending to make the thinking about this a little more > complicated that necessary: I am increasingly tending to -1 on EntriesAllTheWayDown, the "simplification" it introduces feels strained and spurious. It is natural for a feed to consist of a header and some entries. Yes, they share some fields. Trying to pretend that the header is an entry doesn't really seem helpful. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Nov 13 15:57:37 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA00011 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:57:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iADKirK2055421; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:44:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iADKir0h055420; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:44:53 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chromium.sabren.com (chromium.sabren.com [69.20.61.177]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iADKimkH055396 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:44:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.1.101] ([66.57.27.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by chromium.sabren.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iADKkUtA020357 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:46:30 -0500 Message-ID: <41967240.7070407@intertwingly.net> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:44:48 -0500 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040803 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Reducing recidivism Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Based on the responses I have seen to date, I'm not prepared to schedule PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat just quite yet. However, I do believe that it might be worth considering a small change to the process. The current process is that from the pool of a few dozen paces, I select up to a dozen or so to discuss, and after a while, a few get closed, a less get accepted, and the rest are sent back to the pool. Meanwhile, a few new paces get authored. Net result is approximately a steady state. That's not in the working group's best interests. Things I don't want to do: * Put a moratorium on new paces * Establish a "three strikes and you are out" rule for paces * Eliminate the possibility of reopening issues So... the process change I would like to propose is that we focus on reducing the amount of Paces that simply get thrown back to languish. And my proposal is simple: in order for a scheduled Pace to be sent back, at group of people - including at least one detractor - volunteer to work on producing a version that they can live with. Fair enough? - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Nov 13 18:38:40 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA11619 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 18:38:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iADNRPsg080665; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:27:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iADNRPgE080664; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:27:25 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iADNROpd080648 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:27:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CT7Ig-0006th-JO; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 23:27:22 +0000 Message-ID: <4196985B.9040009@franklinmint.fm> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 18:27:23 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sam Ruby CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Reducing recidivism References: <41967240.7070407@intertwingly.net> In-Reply-To: <41967240.7070407@intertwingly.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sam Ruby wrote: > > Net result is approximately a steady state. That's not in the working > group's best interests. > Please consider closing a bunch of link Paces per http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg10800.html > > So... the process change I would like to propose is that we focus on > reducing the amount of Paces that simply get thrown back to languish. > And my proposal is simple: in order for a scheduled Pace to be sent > back, at group of people - including at least one detractor - volunteer > to work on producing a version that they can live with. > > Fair enough? Yes. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Nov 14 06:03:30 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA28615 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 06:03:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAEAiBrb056870; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 02:44:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAEAiBo8056869; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 02:44:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.205]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAEAi5P0056823 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 02:44:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so475065rns for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 02:44:06 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=l88fwYAfMrgqr/lJhx3B4Zkrv/A/s0nr7SQj+TtvUXYhK491HIlsyN6rTUEO09fyjBJASThgcYCmj40uevisvqFSI6eu6kR8V5pxGtZCcRWgmFfOhvlheEq7UE09LQiVllh7H+4jPgjadOJiKH4Hr0vo+CS1ggwELccMqUnZ9Gs= Received: by 10.38.206.14 with SMTP id d14mr49412rng; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 02:44:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.40 with HTTP; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 02:44:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04111402442abe5c12@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:44:06 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Robert Sayre Subject: Re: Reducing recidivism Cc: Sam Ruby , atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <4196985B.9040009@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <41967240.7070407@intertwingly.net> <4196985B.9040009@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 18:27:23 -0500, Robert Sayre wrote: > Please consider closing a bunch of link Paces per > http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg10800.html I've just been through these to try and clear up any I've been anywhere near. The following two I've updated to - "Status: Closed (superceded by PaceFieldingLinks)" PaceLinkRelUri - essentially the same as PaceFieldingLinks (but using the Atom namespace rather than registering) PaceLinkRelMechanism - earlier RFC2731/QNames version of the above There is a little overhang: these included a title attribute to provide a label - might this still be desirable with PaceFieldingLinks? There's also "rev" - might that still be useful? (I don't see the need for @type any more). LinkTagMeaning - this desperately needs refactoring. What is the status of PaceReplaceLinkElement? > > So... the process change I would like to propose is that we focus on > > reducing the amount of Paces that simply get thrown back to languish. > > And my proposal is simple: in order for a scheduled Pace to be sent > > back, at group of people - including at least one detractor - volunteer > > to work on producing a version that they can live with. > > > > Fair enough? > > Yes. Worth a try. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Nov 14 06:34:49 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA00992 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 06:34:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAEBLZKx074299; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 03:21:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAEBLZSO074297; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 03:21:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAEBLYmN074039 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 03:21:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Sun, 14 Nov 2004 22:21:03 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 22:21:02 +1100 Subject: Re: link @type (was: Reducing recidivism) From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd04111402442abe5c12@mail.gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 14/11/04 9:44 PM, "Danny Ayers" wrote: > (I don't see the need for @type any more). I do. vs or... @type is better than heading the links for a couple of reasons: 1) you've already got the string in hand 2) servers are notoriously bad at providing the correct mime type 3) more likely to be accurate than the server 4) more likely to communicate the intent of whoever wrote the link e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Nov 14 07:01:13 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA02846 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 07:01:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAEBlktm086019; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 03:47:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAEBlk9p086018; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 03:47:46 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAEBlkn4085941 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 03:47:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 43331 invoked by uid 17064); 14 Nov 2004 11:47:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.20]) ([83.112.225.187]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 14 Nov 2004 11:47:37 -0000 In-Reply-To: <32C1A204-359C-11D9-89E1-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> References: <80D42852-3556-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <32C1A204-359C-11D9-89E1-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Tim Bray From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 12:47:32 +0100 To: "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 13 Nov 2004, at 18:48, Tim Bray wrote: > On Nov 13, 2004, at 1:29 AM, Henry Story wrote: > >> >> Reading this thread really quickly I noticed that there are a few >> overlapping problems that are tending to make the thinking about this >> a little more complicated that necessary: > > I am increasingly tending to -1 on EntriesAllTheWayDown, the > "simplification" it introduces feels strained and spurious. It is > natural for a feed to consist of a header and some entries. Yes, they > share some fields. I think Robert Sayre's proposal shows that they don't just share a few fields, but that they share quasi all fields. That is really all that we need to show that we are in fact speaking about the same concepts. It may seem odd to people who have been in this field for a really long time, to be told that two things they thought were distinct are really the same. But that is where one needs a little flexibility of mind. Not only is it not "strained and spurious", this simplification is natural and obvious. When James Gosling wrote BlogEd he made the head an entry. I think this is a simplification that will feel completely natural to any OO (or other) software engineer. You have two things with a one to one mapping between their field types: immediately look to see if there is a similarity. This would fall under Martin Fowler's "Extract Superclass" Refactoring pattern (p336): Duplicate code is one of the principal bad things in systems. If you say things in multiple places, then when it comes time to change what you say, you have more things to change than you should. One form of duplicate code is two classes that do similar things in the same way or similar things in different ways. Objects provide a build-in mechanism to simplify this situation with inheritance. However, you often don't notice the commonalities until you have created some classes, in which case you need to create the inheritance structure later. In our case we have the limit case of this refactoring, in which after the extraction of the commonalities of head and entry, nothing more is left. Ie we have simplified our code from two classes down to one. The same is clearly true in writing specifications. > Trying to pretend that the header is an entry doesn't really seem > helpful. -Tim I think this is so clearly helpful in the clarity of the spec, I find it difficult to see how this is not evident. Line number count would be a simple objective measurement of this. When I wrote: > I noticed that there are a few overlapping problems > that are tending to make the thinking about this a little more > complicated that necessary: > 1- do the feed head and entry elements resemble themselves enough? > 2- is a Feed an Entry? > 3- is a Feed a sequence of Entries with the head element being > special? > 4- how does making changes affect the already dodgy inheritance > problem? > 5- Bob Wyman's proposals about needing to keep the whole metadata of > a feed for an > Entry. I meant that 1 is clearly to be answered in the positive. The other questions need not be affected by refactoring the head as an Entry. They are different questions. Treating them all together confuses the issue. Let's look at them one by one seperately. Henry Story From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Nov 14 07:31:31 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA04673 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 07:31:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAECItTe000238; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 04:18:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAECItKp000237; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 04:18:55 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail12.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail12.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.28]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iAECIsI9000194 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 04:18:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 77349 messnum 6473635 invoked from network[83.70.255.40/83-70-255-40.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 14 Nov 2004 12:18:49 -0000 Received: from 83-70-255-40.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?192.168.123.143?) (83.70.255.40) by mail12.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 77349) with SMTP; 14 Nov 2004 12:18:49 -0000 Message-ID: <41974D28.7000601@dehora.net> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 12:18:48 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown References: <80D42852-3556-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <32C1A204-359C-11D9-89E1-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henry Story wrote: > > Not only is it not "strained and spurious", this simplification is > natural and obvious. When James Gosling wrote BlogEd he made the head an > entry. I think this is a simplification that will feel completely > natural to any OO (or other) software engineer. You have two things with > a one to one mapping between their field types: immediately look to see > if there is a similarity. > > This would fall under Martin Fowler's "Extract Superclass" Refactoring > pattern (p336): [...] I've seen Fowler give advice contra that variant of DRY - where the two pieces of code are structurally similar but conceptually different. I happen to agree with that advice. Few things are worse in OO systems that superclasses whose children are not specializations of it or whose children end up being disjoint. IOW I think this smacks of inheritance for reuse; and that is an antipattern. >> Trying to pretend that the header is an entry doesn't really seem >> helpful. -Tim > > I think this is so clearly helpful in the clarity of the spec, I find it > difficult to see how this is not evident. Line number count would be a > simple objective measurement of this. The similarity between feeds and entries is that they both are metadata about web resources. That does not by itself make them conceptually similar in the Atom domain. My opinion of the Feed isa Entry approach is that it's looking for a abstraction that will serve only to obfuscates matters. My experience is that eliding aspects of domain models in favour of generic structures is often a flawed approach. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Nov 14 09:06:35 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA11142 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:06:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAEDntHN020470; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 05:49:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAEDntDK020469; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 05:49:55 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAEDns2B020463 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 05:49:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 23735 invoked by uid 17064); 14 Nov 2004 13:49:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.20]) ([83.112.15.97]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 14 Nov 2004 13:49:56 -0000 In-Reply-To: <41974D28.7000601@dehora.net> References: <80D42852-3556-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <32C1A204-359C-11D9-89E1-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <41974D28.7000601@dehora.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: <0EEB8A47-3644-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 14:49:52 +0100 To: "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iAEDns2B020464 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 14 Nov 2004, at 13:18, Bill de hÓra wrote: > > The similarity between feeds and entries is that they both are > metadata about web resources. That does not by itself make them > conceptually similar in the Atom domain. My opinion of the Feed isa > Entry approach is that it's looking for a abstraction that will serve > only to obfuscates matters. Bill, I agree in so far as I think that the feed is a Entry issue is a separate one from the PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown one. The simplification given by PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown works just as well with the Feed is a Entry model, as with the Feed is a set of Entries model [1]. In fact both models could work with current spec text. When Robert writes the EntriesAllTheWayDown pace "allows a straightforward way to implement hierarchy", I think the word "allows" should be understood as saying that it makes it easier to see that this could be done, but not necessarily that is should be done. I think that is a separate issue. What we should first do, is concentrate on the refactoring proposed by Robert. As a re-factoring it hardly changes anything at all. But it simplifies the spec a lot. You can accept the refactoring without accepting that a Feed is a Entry. You would prefer the model perhaps in which a feed is a set of entries, with a special entry being the head entry of the feed. That is the model I adopted in my latest attempts at modeling Atom in OWL. > My experience is that eliding aspects of domain models in favour of > generic structures is often a flawed approach. "often", but not always. Perhaps you can reference exactly where Martin Fowler specifies one should be careful. Here we still have two classes: a Feed and a Entry class. So we are not much more generic than we were beforehand. You could say that we have simplified the Feed class down to its core. In doing so the specification has been much clarified. There is another nice advantage of this on the API side of things. If the head of a feed is an Entry then the API might also be simplified quite dramatically, since adding all the head information to a feed would be just creating a new Entry element and associating it with a feed. > > cheers > Bill [1] which I described in my mail http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11311.html From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Nov 14 09:54:13 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA15627 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:54:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAEEfGi7026921; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 06:41:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAEEfG2o026920; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 06:41:16 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail01.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail01.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.17]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iAEEfFVT026904 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 06:41:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 36481 messnum 7728491 invoked from network[83.70.255.40/83-70-255-40.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 14 Nov 2004 14:41:11 -0000 Received: from 83-70-255-40.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?192.168.123.143?) (83.70.255.40) by mail01.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 36481) with SMTP; 14 Nov 2004 14:41:11 -0000 Message-ID: <41976E86.5050009@dehora.net> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 14:41:10 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'Atom WG'" Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown References: <80D42852-3556-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <32C1A204-359C-11D9-89E1-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <41974D28.7000601@dehora.net> <0EEB8A47-3644-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> In-Reply-To: <0EEB8A47-3644-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henry Story wrote: > You can accept the refactoring without accepting that a Feed is a Entry. > You would prefer the model perhaps in which a feed is a set of entries, > with a special entry being the head entry of the feed. That is the model > I adopted in my latest attempts at modeling Atom in OWL. Not quite. I still don't see that either is a special case of the other. I think the data structure for this is a 2-tuple feed(head, list), not a 1-tuple feed(list) of uniform type. In my mind, the second member of that tuple is a delayed list (i.e., a stream [1]), not a set. But of course you could represent all the entries as a set, but that's a math thing rather than a programming thing. I recall Bob Wyman's analogy to a sliding window or some such capturing my sense of a feed's entries perfectly. >> My experience is that eliding aspects of domain models in favour of >> generic structures is often a flawed approach. > > "often", but not always. Perhaps you can reference exactly where Martin > Fowler specifies one should be careful. [I'd like to but it I'm pretty sure it was in a yahoo group (I think it was extremeprogramming) which are basically unsearchable in reasonable time. All I'll say is I'm not making it up - there were two code blocks that were doing essentially the same programmatic operation; the deciding argument was to leave them as they were since the blocks differed in intent at the application level. I remember because it surprised me. Inheritance as reuse is (now) a well-understood phenomenon in OO.] > There is another nice advantage of this on the API side of things. If > the head of a feed is an Entry then the API might also be simplified > quite dramatically, since adding all the head information to a feed > would be just creating a new Entry element and associating it with a feed. See the data structures comment above. We need to be careful because "head" is being used in two distinct senses - one as the name of metadata structure that describes the feed; two as the first child of the Atom feed element and thus item(0) in any XML/Info set based process). For 1) the head of a feed is not an entry, it is the first member of that 2-tuple. For 2) the head of the entries is not the head but the next entry on the stream; the stream is the second member of the 2-tuple. That the head looks like the the head of a list of entries is a feature both of the XML snapshot you've been given and the vagaries of English ;) Put it this way. my objections to treating the atom:head data structure as a kind of atom:entry stands. Otherwise where you and Robert and going is interesting. On further reflection - atom:head might be a confusing name, atom:header or atom:about might be better. No big deal, just an ob. cheers Bill [1] http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/sicp/book/node70.html From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Nov 14 10:06:06 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA16959 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 10:06:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAEEpis7028693; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 06:51:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAEEpiVV028692; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 06:51:44 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAEEpisD028676 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 06:51:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from quark (58.80-202-95.nextgentel.com [80.202.95.58]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0796E5E82; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 15:51:41 +0100 (MET) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 15:53:19 +0100 To: "Danny Ayers" Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised details Cc: Atom-Syntax References: <1f2ed5cd041113030725ece1d9@mail.gmail.com> <1f2ed5cd04111307357236b318@mail.gmail.com> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd04111307357236b318@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 16:35:02 +0100, Danny Ayers wrote: > Yep, sure - forget "probably defaulting", that would be > implementation-specific. Indeed. Show the category as a floating box going ping-pong on the monitor in the colors of the rainbow -- we shouldn't care. ;-) > But do you think the optional/mandatory setup needs rearranging? I don't. I think it makes sense to have the machine-readable stuff mandatory. Humans can after all adjust to missing metadata. Computers can't. > The reason for giving term super-extra-powers was that it should, in > principle at least, be possible to get hold of a useful label given > the (scheme+)term, but not necessarily the other way around. Absolutely. -- Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- asbjornu@hotmail.com «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Nov 14 10:11:05 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA17717 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 10:11:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAEF0Zkg030550; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 07:00:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAEF0ZfH030549; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 07:00:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAEF0YuQ030539 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 07:00:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from quark (58.80-202-95.nextgentel.com [80.202.95.58]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFA375568; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 16:00:31 +0100 (MET) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 16:02:10 +0100 To: "Danny Ayers" Subject: Re: Explicit deletion of feed items? Cc: Atom-Syntax References: <96d7d77c0411110840659cfbb1@mail.gmail.com> <1f2ed5cd041113022543399f41@mail.gmail.com> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd041113022543399f41@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 11:25:44 +0100, Danny Ayers wrote: > I see your point, but tend to disagree. "modified" - yes, there would > be a strong case for that being in protocol, if it's aimed right down > at machine-bits level. Yup. > But "updated" is up with the content as top-level publisher/reader- > oriented information. That's why I don't think 'updated' should be a part of the protocol either. It belongs in the format. Most of the format is authorative information, but we mix in some non-authorative more objective machine-readable stuff that I feel belongs in and for the protocol. > Similarly "deleted" (or whatever) in the form it has been proposed > isn't really saying some piece of data has necessarily changed, rather > that the publisher wishes to provide some addtional information about > that data (it's no longer wanted). The action of deletion is done by the author. So is the action of modification. Still I feel that this is an action provided through an interface that should be provided automatically to subscribers, maybe through a element. > It's very much up to the client, likely in the UI on how to respond > to that piece of information, as in the case of "updated". 'updated' is probably something you'd like to show the user. 'deleted' might also be shown, but that goes for 'modified' as well. What you choose to show and hide from the user is implementation-specific, but how the information is provided should not be. Authorative dates should be picked explicitly by the user (such as 'updated'), while 'modified' and 'deleted' are dates that are provided through an action by the user; he has either modified or deleted the entry. > We could push "deleted" down to the protocol level, and have it > correspond to HTTP DELETE at the other end of the pipe. I could be > wrong, but I don't think that's what is required. Support for the HTTP DELETE method is of course not required to be able to provide an exact 'deleted' date, but an action corresponding to HTTP's DELETE, need to be supported. There has to be a 'delete' link or similar in the interface that the user can press. Still, very implementation-specific, but deleting an entry is not up for much interpretation. Either you delete it or you don't. Whether the action of 'delete' puts your entry in a recycle bin, in an «unpublished» state or whatever, doesn't matter. What matters is the action and what you want to tell your subscribers. > I think what's needed is more "remove from view" than "remove every > trace". Yes. I don't disagree with that. -- Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- asbjornu@hotmail.com «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Nov 14 11:09:05 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA23029 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:09:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAEFq0Ht036210; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 07:52:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAEFpxQM036209; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 07:51:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAEFpw6H036100 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 07:51:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Mon, 15 Nov 2004 02:51:30 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 02:51:29 +1100 Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200411131702.BYM67336@ms8.netsolmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 14/11/04 4:02 AM, "Bob Wyman" wrote: > Imagine that there are two feeds that you wish to read: A and B. > Now, imagine that you have two choices for how to read the content > of these two feeds: > > 1. Receive each feed individually > 2. Or, Receive both feeds in a composite feed imagine an author writes an entry, and then publishes it... 1. in his main feed 2. in a category-specific feed 3. in some planet-x feed 4. in an RSS 1.0 feed for backwards compatibility is that the same entry occurring in four different places, or is it four different entries? My sense is that it is the same entry. If that entry is then aggregated into a composite feed, does it matter which feed it originally came from? The essential nature of an entry is fully contained* within the entry itself, and does not need rely on some context to give it proper meaning. The context may give additional meaning, or it may not, but nonetheless it's not part of the entry. That's my sense of it. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Nov 14 11:52:59 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA25242 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:52:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAEGdiXU040990; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 08:39:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAEGdiI4040989; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 08:39:44 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAEGdiOa040983 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 08:39:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 30099 invoked by uid 17064); 14 Nov 2004 16:39:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.15.20]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 14 Nov 2004 16:39:45 -0000 In-Reply-To: <41976E86.5050009@dehora.net> References: <80D42852-3556-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <32C1A204-359C-11D9-89E1-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <41974D28.7000601@dehora.net> <0EEB8A47-3644-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <41976E86.5050009@dehora.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=Apple-Mail-33--263386157 Message-Id: Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:39:41 +0100 To: "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-33--263386157 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 14 Nov 2004, at 15:41, Bill de h=D3ra wrote: > > Henry Story wrote: > >> You can accept the refactoring without accepting that a Feed is a=20 >> Entry. You would prefer the model perhaps in which a feed is a set of=20= >> entries, with a special entry being the head entry of the feed. That=20= >> is the model I adopted in my latest attempts at modeling Atom in OWL. > > Not quite. I still don't see that either is a special case of the=20 > other. I think the data structure for this is a 2-tuple feed(head,=20 > list), not a 1-tuple feed(list) of uniform type. In my mind, the=20 > second member of that tuple is a delayed list (i.e., a stream [1]),=20 > not a set. But of course you could represent all the entries as a set,=20= > but that's a math thing rather than a programming thing. Ok. My way of putting it was a little too short hand. 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FABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUU AFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAf/Z --Apple-Mail-33--263386157 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit which in your notation is a 2-tuple feed(head, set), but I suppose could also represent feed(head,stream), which I in fact prefer. > I recall Bob Wyman's analogy to a sliding window or some such > capturing my sense of a feed's entries perfectly. > > >>> My experience is that eliding aspects of domain models in favour of >>> generic structures is often a flawed approach. >> "often", but not always. Perhaps you can reference exactly where >> Martin Fowler specifies one should be careful. > > [I'd like to but it I'm pretty sure it was in a yahoo group (I think > it was extremeprogramming) which are basically unsearchable in > reasonable time. All I'll say is I'm not making it up - there were two > code blocks that were doing essentially the same programmatic > operation; the deciding argument was to leave them as they were since > the blocks differed in intent at the application level. I remember > because it surprised me. Inheritance as reuse is (now) a > well-understood phenomenon in OO.] [Yes. It is unbelievable that they should have allowed their search of the groups to get so bad. That is why I started the atom-owl group on groups-beta.google.com] > >> There is another nice advantage of this on the API side of things. If >> the head of a feed is an Entry then the API might also be simplified >> quite dramatically, since adding all the head information to a feed >> would be just creating a new Entry element and associating it with a >> feed. > > See the data structures comment above. We need to be careful because > "head" is being used in two distinct senses - one as the name of > metadata structure that describes the feed; two as the first child of > the Atom feed element and thus item(0) in any XML/Info set based > process). > > For 1) the head of a feed is not an entry, it is the first member of > that 2-tuple. For 2) the head of the entries is not the head but the > next entry on the stream; the stream is the second member of the > 2-tuple. That the head looks like the the head of a list of entries is > a feature both of the XML snapshot you've been given and the vagaries > of English ;) completely agree on this. > Put it this way. my objections to treating the atom:head data > structure as a kind of atom:entry stands. Otherwise where you and > Robert and going is interesting. Well I think that is just what Robert is proposing, and I am agreeing with. That the atom:head data structure is a kind of atom:entry data structure, or even is exactly that: an atom:entry. The refactoring here came from taking the atom:entry structure and the atom:head structure and finding that they had most of their elements in common, and furthermore that there is no harm done when one further merges the differences into one. Your objection was that such refactorings can sometimes be a bad idea. But exactly why they would not be good in this case is not clear. Neither is it clear what our refactoring has in common with bad examples of the application of this refactoring. Such cons furthermore then have to be balanced agains the pros: such as the advantages in simplicity at the syntax, and maybe even the API level that may ensue from this. "It's all about the Entries stupid", sounds even truer now. So the objection stands, but I think its legs are very very weak. It may want to sit down for a rest :-) Henry > > On further reflection - atom:head might be a confusing name, > atom:header or atom:about might be better. No big deal, just an ob. > > cheers > Bill > > [1] http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/sicp/book/node70.html > --Apple-Mail-33--263386157-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Nov 14 12:07:40 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA26049 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 12:07:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAEGrq14042722; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 08:53:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAEGrqDC042721; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 08:53:52 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAEGrmDl042715 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 08:53:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 37312 invoked by uid 17064); 14 Nov 2004 16:53:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.15.20]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 14 Nov 2004 16:53:49 -0000 In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: bobwyman@pubsub.com, Eric Scheid From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:53:44 +0100 To: "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think there is a lot of strength to Eric's arguments below which could also be stated as "It's all about the Entries, stupid!" :-> But that is not the issue in this thread. The issue should rather be for Bob: would making the head data structure be a Entry data structure in any way affect the intent behind his pace. And I don't think it does. If you really wanted a head in an Entry it would be just as simple to have a Entry contain a header property to an Entry, than it would be to have it contain a header property pointing to a head structure. So I don't think Bob need worry about this pace affecting his proposal. Henry On 14 Nov 2004, at 16:51, Eric Scheid wrote: > > On 14/11/04 4:02 AM, "Bob Wyman" wrote: > >> Imagine that there are two feeds that you wish to read: A and B. >> Now, imagine that you have two choices for how to read the content >> of these two feeds: >> >> 1. Receive each feed individually >> 2. Or, Receive both feeds in a composite feed > > imagine an author writes an entry, and then publishes it... > > 1. in his main feed > 2. in a category-specific feed > 3. in some planet-x feed > 4. in an RSS 1.0 feed for backwards compatibility > > is that the same entry occurring in four different places, or is it > four > different entries? My sense is that it is the same entry. > > If that entry is then aggregated into a composite feed, does it matter > which > feed it originally came from? > > The essential nature of an entry is fully contained* within the entry > itself, and does not need rely on some context to give it proper > meaning. > The context may give additional meaning, or it may not, but > nonetheless it's > not part of the entry. > > That's my sense of it. > > e. > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Nov 14 12:45:30 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA28572 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 12:45:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAEHThp9045976; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:29:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAEHThTq045975; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:29:43 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAEHTg8r045965 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:29:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CTOC4-0007pZ-3f; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:29:40 +0000 Message-ID: <41979603.9070502@franklinmint.fm> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 12:29:39 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= CC: "'Atom WG'" Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown References: <80D42852-3556-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <32C1A204-359C-11D9-89E1-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <41974D28.7000601@dehora.net> <0EEB8A47-3644-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <41976E86.5050009@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: <41976E86.5050009@dehora.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill de hÓra wrote: > > Not quite. I still don't see that either is a special case of the other. > I think the data structure for this is a 2-tuple feed(head, list), not a > 1-tuple feed(list) of uniform type. In my mind, the second member of > that tuple is a delayed list (i.e., a stream [1]), not a set. But of > course you could represent all the entries as a set, but that's a math > thing rather than a programming thing. > > I recall Bob Wyman's analogy to a sliding window or some such capturing > my sense of a feed's entries perfectly. I went for that analogy at first, as well. Now I think it's just a server-determined subset of a collection. You can characterize the results of a sequence of requests as a stream if you want, but that is true of any web resource. In any case, this proposal was just a way to provide addressable metadata for feeds. People seem to be having an allergic reaction to it, which is funny to me, since the use cases for entries themselves are very divergent. There are other ways to do it, so it's not a big deal. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Nov 14 13:42:16 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA01747 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 13:42:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAEIPQUg051678; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 10:25:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAEIPQmv051677; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 10:25:26 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAEIPOdR051655 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 10:25:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iAEINoD9013974; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 18:23:53 GMT In-Reply-To: <41979603.9070502@franklinmint.fm> References: <80D42852-3556-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <32C1A204-359C-11D9-89E1-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <41974D28.7000601@dehora.net> <0EEB8A47-3644-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <41976E86.5050009@dehora.net> <41979603.9070502@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-13--257137468; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <54F7BAEE-366A-11D9-A4C0-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= , "'Atom WG'" From: Graham Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 18:23:49 +0000 To: Robert Sayre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-13--257137468 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This Pace is awful. No one disagrees that head is very-much like an entry. But the thing is, that doesn't make it one. I don't even think you believe it is really an entry, otherwise you wouldn't have called it headentry. This Pace does nothing, literally nothing, in that afterwards we'll still have a head and a bunch of entries, we'll just be calling them by really non-sensical terminology. The conceptual argument is completely moot. Why not adopt it anyway then? Because the real effect of the Pace is to arbitrarily remove our ability to differentiate the spec for an "entry" and a "headentry", and there's no reason to. Graham --Apple-Mail-13--257137468 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMTE0MTgyMzUwWjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQU+fGldIqZ9LjEU1s3tmbOcod+ DSMweAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEABAlnyYbajxW/vj3FjEOAecJu 1HDOvZTVFGvRg2MGP8zXM7iN64LdPAUy0nNDrxQeiVR5ZSTJByvAdHKmgqdx2a7bZ4nDlc6RgxKy HfnTvnCiTnpsPni1//54plXS9KeeFrt6hC0T/M36VvB4eCWPcYY37QwPmhMlnloK8Yh4BK7bRt83 btUMrCq5Lmnq4rPpHQ4KsMp9GcI5fRZI5pmHSZxDAEl52umjnTpGEO9xzc15hcQQe0ut6FsUvr4m kptGANkkLCS9BT2YJipf7AXeZFmxWo+16AQD6t0ZaaKpRGpklA0Fe07UdnLYptx4XPwxKKgVD95c 2cwWd16Bxfv0YgAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-13--257137468-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Nov 14 13:48:09 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA01949 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 13:48:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAEIagwA052452; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 10:36:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAEIagmN052451; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 10:36:42 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAEIagRo052445 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 10:36:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CTPEw-0002Hb-Kp; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 18:36:42 +0000 Message-ID: <4197A5BA.6040001@franklinmint.fm> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 13:36:42 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham CC: "'Atom WG'" Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown References: <80D42852-3556-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <32C1A204-359C-11D9-89E1-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <41974D28.7000601@dehora.net> <0EEB8A47-3644-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <41976E86.5050009@dehora.net> <41979603.9070502@franklinmint.fm> <54F7BAEE-366A-11D9-A4C0-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <54F7BAEE-366A-11D9-A4C0-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't understand anything you are writing. The effect of the Pace is negligible, yet it is awful? We need preserve the ability to differentiate the spec for entry and head, yet they are almost identical? The changes proposed are so small and people are flipping out. This is getting funny. I will withdraw the Pace, and keep the Iron Curtain between head and entry. You will feel safe. Plus, I won't have to answer emails from you about it anymore. Everybody wins. Robert Sayre Graham wrote: > This Pace is awful. No one disagrees that head is very-much like an > entry. But the thing is, that doesn't make it one. I don't even think > you believe it is really an entry, otherwise you wouldn't have called it > headentry. This Pace does nothing, literally nothing, in that afterwards > we'll still have a head and a bunch of entries, we'll just be calling > them by really non-sensical terminology. The conceptual argument is > completely moot. > > Why not adopt it anyway then? Because the real effect of the Pace is to > arbitrarily remove our ability to differentiate the spec for an "entry" > and a "headentry", and there's no reason to. > > Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Nov 14 14:23:30 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA04199 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 14:23:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAEJBFhf056558; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:11:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAEJBE7k056557; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:11:14 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAEJBEhm056549 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:11:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 10774 invoked by uid 17064); 14 Nov 2004 19:11:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.15.20]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 14 Nov 2004 19:11:18 -0000 In-Reply-To: <4197A5BA.6040001@franklinmint.fm> References: <80D42852-3556-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <32C1A204-359C-11D9-89E1-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <41974D28.7000601@dehora.net> <0EEB8A47-3644-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <41976E86.5050009@dehora.net> <41979603.9070502@franklinmint.fm> <54F7BAEE-366A-11D9-A4C0-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <4197A5BA.6040001@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Robert Sayre From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 20:11:10 +0100 To: "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 14 Nov 2004, at 19:36, Robert Sayre wrote: > I don't understand anything you are writing. The effect of the Pace is > negligible, yet it is awful? We need preserve the ability to > differentiate the spec for entry and head, yet they are almost > identical? The changes proposed are so small and people are flipping > out. This is getting funny. > > I will withdraw the Pace, and keep the Iron Curtain between head and > entry. You will feel safe. Plus, I won't have to answer emails from > you about it anymore. Everybody wins. Please don't withdraw the Pace. I am 100% behind it. Others who think this is not such a bad idea please add your +1s to give Robert a little boost of confidence! > Robert Sayre > > Graham wrote: > >> This Pace is awful. No one disagrees that head is very-much like an >> entry. But the thing is, that doesn't make it one. What makes it one? Do you have special access to some Platonic realm where you can see exactly what a head structure is? Please let us know how and why it is not an Entry even though for all purposes it looks exactly like one. >> I don't even think you believe it is really an entry, otherwise you >> wouldn't have called it headentry. That is a complete misunderstanding of why Robert called the tag a headentry: 1- to distinguish normal entries from this special one Bill de Hora explained that very well recently as feed(head,stream) [1] 2- to distinguish the headentry property proposed from the previous head one with which he wishes to replace it. He even acknowledge that it would make no difference in the end if we returned back to calling it "head". >> This Pace does nothing, literally nothing, in that afterwards we'll >> still have a head and a bunch of entries, we'll just be calling them >> by really non-sensical terminology. The conceptual argument is >> completely moot. >> Why not adopt it anyway then? Because the real effect of the Pace is >> to arbitrarily remove our ability to differentiate the spec for an >> "entry" and a "headentry", and there's no reason to. I think that is exactly a very good reason to merge them. Let us simplify the spec, and if we find that a lot of problems end up surfacing because we failed to make a distinction, we can always go back to the previous state! It seems a little silly to avoid simplifications to the spec, for some hypothetical distinction we may want to draw in the future. >> Graham > [1] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11563.html From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Nov 14 14:34:08 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA05311 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 14:34:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAEJN6uO057659; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:23:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAEJN6jJ057658; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:23:06 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAEJN5tO057650 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:23:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CTPxp-0004cD-Sh; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 19:23:06 +0000 Message-ID: <4197B099.9000806@franklinmint.fm> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 14:23:05 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henry Story CC: "'Atom WG'" Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown References: <80D42852-3556-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <32C1A204-359C-11D9-89E1-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <41974D28.7000601@dehora.net> <0EEB8A47-3644-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <41976E86.5050009@dehora.net> <41979603.9070502@franklinmint.fm> <54F7BAEE-366A-11D9-A4C0-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <4197A5BA.6040001@franklinmint.fm> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henry Story wrote: > > Please don't withdraw the Pace. I am 100% behind it. > Others who think this is not such a bad idea please add your +1s to give > Robert a little boost of confidence! > Thanks for you support Henry, but my confidence is doing fine :) It's just not that important. There are other ways to accomplish the same goal with a little cruft, and it's not worth sitting through a long argument about what's "natural", OO programming analogies, and the dissonance of a given proposal with the contents of Graham's mind. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Nov 14 16:58:22 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA14787 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 16:58:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAELfqh9068580; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 13:41:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAELfqZo068579; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 13:41:52 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAELfpLu068567 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 13:41:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iAELeZq7019369; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 21:40:41 GMT In-Reply-To: References: <80D42852-3556-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <32C1A204-359C-11D9-89E1-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <41974D28.7000601@dehora.net> <0EEB8A47-3644-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <41976E86.5050009@dehora.net> <41979603.9070502@franklinmint.fm> <54F7BAEE-366A-11D9-A4C0-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <4197A5BA.6040001@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-1--245331843; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: Cc: Robert Sayre , "'Atom WG'" From: Graham Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 21:40:35 +0000 To: Henry Story X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-1--245331843 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 14 Nov 2004, at 7:11 pm, Henry Story wrote: > What makes it one? Do you have special access to some Platonic realm > where you can see exactly what a head structure is? Please let us know > how and why it is not an Entry even though for all purposes it looks > exactly like one. This illustrates exactly my point. If you define "entry" to mean what you want it to mean, you will of course always be right. Whether they're a "head" and an "entry", or a "special entry" and a "normal entry", conceptually you haven't changed things one bit, you've just changed the definition of "entry" we're using. Let's just call them "Thing 1" and "Thing 2". > I think that is exactly a very good reason to merge them. Let us > simplify the spec, and if we find that a lot of problems end up > surfacing because we failed to make a distinction, we can always go > back to the previous state! Well you can unify the syntax of Thing 1 and Thing 2 without having to call the head a "special entry". > It seems a little silly to avoid simplifications to the spec, for some > hypothetical distinction we may want to draw in the future. They're are already several differences between the spec of Thing 1 and Thing 2. PEATWD removes them without concern for the technical implications. Thank you for closing it Robert. 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Sun, 14 Nov 2004 19:38:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAF0Jsxp079093; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 16:19:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAF0JsbM079092; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 16:19:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAF0Jptx079061 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 16:19:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:19:22 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:19:21 +1100 Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 15/11/04 6:11 AM, "Henry Story" wrote: > It seems a little silly to avoid simplifications to the spec, for some > hypothetical distinction we may want to draw in the future. but it's not a simplification. it's shorter, maybe, but not simpler. with it, every time we want to add some element or attribute to either the head concept or the entry concept we have to take pains to spectext which it is relevant to, and spectext it in a manner that makes sense in the context of the superclass. This is the consequence of the superclass for re-use antipattern. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 10:37:17 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA03360 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:37:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFFF0t0082979; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 07:15:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFFF0vh082978; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 07:15:00 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chromium.sabren.com (chromium.sabren.com [69.20.61.177]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFFEtEl082918 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 07:14:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [172.16.4.22] (40322028.ptr.dia.nextlink.net [64.50.32.40]) (authenticated bits=0) by chromium.sabren.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iAFFEtBP018370 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:14:55 -0500 Message-ID: <4198C7F6.7040606@intertwingly.net> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:15:02 -0500 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040803 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom-Syntax Subject: New AtomPubIssuesList for 2004/11/15 References: <412B23C4.9010602@intertwingly.net> <4130E11B.3000600@intertwingly.net> <41546A46.60507@intertwingly.net> <4166C99A.4040603@intertwingly.net> <41812CA8.6090501@intertwingly.net> In-Reply-To: <41812CA8.6090501@intertwingly.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keeping it simple, lets focus on two things. First, lets take PaceHeadInEntry, which a number of people have indicated that they want either this or something like it before the format can be declared done. Second, lets see if we can significantly reduce the number of alternative syntaxes being considered for link. For starters, I'm taking Tim's request (as echoed by Rob) that link related Paces which have not been updated recently be recommended for closure. Even with this done, this would have been eight retired Link related paces, and eight new Link related Paces. However, with Danny retiring two in favor of PaceFieldingLinks (thanks, Danny!), this shifts the balance to ten retired and six under active consideration. I'd like to reiterate my request that for the ones that we don't come to consensus on this time, we don't simply put these back in the queue. Effectively this means that if somebody objects to a pace, one of three things happens: (1) the person agrees to work on fixing the issues that they have identified, and the issue goes back on the queue with this understanding. (2) the chairs note the objection, but finds that there is enough support for the proposal to declare rough consensus, and the proposal gets accepted. (3) the pace gets rejected. - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 11:08:48 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA05563 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:08:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFFtILK096642; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 07:55:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFFtIiA096640; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 07:55:18 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFFtIY4096552 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 07:55:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004111515551501400pq2kme>; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:55:15 +0000 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:55:13 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following lists which elements can appear in atom:head and atom:entry according to the current draft. I think any proposal to unify head and entry needs to explicitly address each of the differences and explain a) why there's no reason for both head and entry not to contain each or them, or b) why each should disappear or be moved elsewhere in the format, or c) why it's okay to say "head and entry are the same except for these differences". Element Name Head Entry ============ ==== ===== title Required Required link Required Required introspection Yes No post Yes No[1] edit No[2] Yes author Required Required (required in head or in every entry) contributor Yes Yes tagline Yes[3] No id Yes Required generator Yes No copyright Yes Yes info Yes[4] No updated Required Required published No[5] Yes summary No[3] Sometimes Required content No Yes origin No Yes [1] atom:post in atom:entry as a pointer to a comment feed don't seem unreasonable to me. [2] atom:edit for atom:head makes sense to me. [3] replacing atom:tagline with atom:summary sounds reasonable if not exactly precise in meaning. [4] I'd say atom:info should be removed from atom:head except that part of the purpose of atom:head is to make the ordering rules for children of atom:feed simple, and perhaps even so. I don't think I'd be too disappointed if atom:info just disappeared. We could (dons asbestos suit) use to point to an explanation of the feed format if we feel the need to reserve a method of educating view-sourcers. [5] I guess you could conceivably have atom:published in atom:feed--sort of a "serving your information needs since 1894" sort of thing. Other differences: * introspection - I'm not up on what the introspection file is all about enough to comment on this one * generator - I don't see this making sense in entry * content - I don't see this making sense in head * origin - I don't see this making sense in head * id: required in entry, not in head - as it should be * if tagline becomes summary, the fact that it's sometimes required in entry, but never in head - as it should be From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 11:28:35 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA07483 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:28:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFGEunJ009629; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:14:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFGEuSZ009628; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:14:56 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFGEu44009532 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:14:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 71466 invoked by uid 17064); 15 Nov 2004 16:14:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.128.139]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 15 Nov 2004 16:14:50 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <77018B0D-3721-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:14:45 +0100 To: Antone Roundy , "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks a lot Antone, that is really useful work. (Why did I not think of doing this!(kicks himself)) I have saved the Pace from the flames of hell and have resuscitated it in a simpler form as PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 [1], which focuses only on the re-factoring part of the previous version. I think this is one of these paces that like wine, will taste better with time. :-) Henry [1] http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 On 15 Nov 2004, at 16:55, Antone Roundy wrote: > > The following lists which elements can appear in atom:head and > atom:entry according to the current draft. I think any proposal to > unify head and entry needs to explicitly address each of the > differences and explain a) why there's no reason for both head and > entry not to contain each or them, or b) why each should disappear or > be moved elsewhere in the format, or c) why it's okay to say "head and > entry are the same except for these differences". > > Element Name Head Entry > ============ ==== ===== > title Required Required > link Required Required > introspection Yes No > post Yes No[1] > edit No[2] Yes > author Required Required (required in head or in every entry) > contributor Yes Yes > tagline Yes[3] No > id Yes Required > generator Yes No > copyright Yes Yes > info Yes[4] No > updated Required Required > published No[5] Yes > summary No[3] Sometimes Required > content No Yes > origin No Yes > > [1] atom:post in atom:entry as a pointer to a comment feed don't seem > unreasonable to me. > > [2] atom:edit for atom:head makes sense to me. > > [3] replacing atom:tagline with atom:summary sounds reasonable if not > exactly precise in meaning. > > [4] I'd say atom:info should be removed from atom:head except that > part of the purpose of atom:head is to make the ordering rules for > children of atom:feed simple, and perhaps even so. I don't think I'd > be too disappointed if atom:info just disappeared. We could (dons > asbestos suit) use to point to > an explanation of the feed format if we feel the need to reserve a > method of educating view-sourcers. > > [5] I guess you could conceivably have atom:published in > atom:feed--sort of a "serving your information needs since 1894" sort > of thing. > > Other differences: > * introspection - I'm not up on what the introspection file is all > about enough to comment on this one > * generator - I don't see this making sense in entry > * content - I don't see this making sense in head > * origin - I don't see this making sense in head > * id: required in entry, not in head - as it should be > * if tagline becomes summary, the fact that it's sometimes required in > entry, but never in head - as it should be > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 12:02:39 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA10949 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:02:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFGllgt031186; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:47:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFGll5L031185; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:47:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr3.netsolmail.com (omr3.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.164]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFGll8d031156 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:47:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr3.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAFGlkrd000778 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:47:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BYQ31462 (AUTH bob@wyman.us); Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:47:45 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411151647.BYQ31462@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Atom Syntax'" Subject: Joshua Porter on Blogging, Information Architecture, and Faceted Classification systems Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:47:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-Index: AcTLMtNkaWnEx7dKQ0STbGjumqWNkA== Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I strongly recommend reading Joshua Porter's recent article in "Digital Web Magazine." http://www.digital-web.com/articles/home_alone_content_aggregators/ He comments on the impacts that blogging and aggregators are having on the design and information architecture of web sites. As we define the technologies that will support syndication in the future, it is important that we try to understand the impacts that these technologies will have on the systems with which they interact. Some quotes: "Aggregation hinges on gathering content from other domains. This dramatically affects the search for content. Users no longer need to start their search in the domain where the content lies. In fact, they almost never do." "the [Information Architecture] that ends up getting users to the target content page isn't the one on the site they end up on, it's the aggregator's site's [Information Architecture]." "What does it mean that our content is increasingly becoming part of an IA that is not of our own making? Should we be concerned that aggregators are increasingly allowing users to find their own ways to use our content how they see fit?" "Aggregators are promoting a shift in the control of content. They're challenging the idea that we as designers control public access to information in our domains, that users must view things in the way we prescribe, and that our hierarchy is best to present our content." Thanks to John Panzer of AOL for leading me to this article. See: http://journals.aol.com/panzerjohn/abstractioneer/entries/993 bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 12:05:35 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA11088 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:05:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFGsJle035720; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:54:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFGsJ7R035719; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:54:19 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFGsI3v035625 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:54:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iAFGqObJ010252; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:52:24 GMT In-Reply-To: <77018B0D-3721-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> References: <77018B0D-3721-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-2--176230204; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: Cc: Antone Roundy , "'Atom WG'" From: Graham Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:52:17 +0000 To: Henry Story X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-2--176230204 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "The 'atom:head' is an Atom Entry" No it isn't. Go away. 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Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:28:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFHCF0C047019; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:12:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFHCFiD047016; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:12:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFHCEtN046942 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:12:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <2004111517120701600fcq80e>; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:12:12 +0000 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:12:07 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: PaceFieldingLinks From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <7A5B6FE1-3729-11D9-88C4-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I noticed this Pace doesn't mention canonicalization, and from what I can tell, RFC2396bis section 3 leaves room for variety in how a URI may be formed. Shall we add language similar to that found in section 3.6 (identity constructs), specifically 3.5.1 (recommended normalization strategry) and 3.6.2 (character-by-character comparison)? We could also simply refer to those sections and say "follow the same rules". From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 12:42:29 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA13958 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:42:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFHRtsF054319; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:27:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFHRtRc054318; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:27:55 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFHRtnQ054306 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:27:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004111517275301400pq6l0e>; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:27:53 +0000 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:27:51 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: PaceLinkByLocation et al--what is a "link"? From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With something akin to PaceLinkPurpose (which is in the recommended for closure list...a fact I will object to here, but unless somebody else speaks up, I won't waste any more effort advocating it), I think the value of PaceLinkByLocation, PaceConstructAttribute, PaceFieldingLinks, and PaceLinkRelPrefixReg is limited mostly[1] to name collision avoidance. In other words, unless Link Constructs are constrained to the point where an application can handle unknown Link Constructs in some default way without...how to say it...doing something stupid, it doesn't matter whether the application can recognize unknown Link Constructs or not. [1] PaceConstructAttribute might have some usefulness with respect to other construct types (BTW, the list of its values needs to be expanded to include one for each construct type defined in the spec...I'll have to get to that). PaceFieldingLinks also defines a default @rel value, and pares down the list of @rel values (...too much, in my opinion, but I'd rather argue that later). From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 12:52:50 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA14790 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:52:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFHdF48057104; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:39:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFHdF3E057103; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:39:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFHdFno057063 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:39:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004111517391201100705tre>; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:39:12 +0000 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:39:11 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: PaceLinkDelicious, PaceLinkConstruct: @rel values From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <42771422-372D-11D9-88C4-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Okay, I'll argue this now: I for one would like to keep more @rel values than PaceFieldingLinks retains. From PaceLinkDelicious and PaceLinkConstruct: about: The URI in the href attribute points to a resource that is the topic of an entry. (sort of like "the primary 'related' link") start, next, prev: moving the "sliding window" along the feed--necessary if one wants to "catch up" on missed entries. comment: I assume primarily to point to a comments feed for the entry There are others to which I wouldn't object, but which I myself would find less useful, so won't mention here. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 13:06:03 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA15876 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:06:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFHrXZh060411; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:53:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFHrXm4060410; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:53:33 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFHrXdB060403 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:53:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CTl2j-0001wX-2t; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:53:33 +0000 Message-ID: <4198ED1A.5000901@franklinmint.fm> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:53:30 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Antone Roundy CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: PaceLinkDelicious, PaceLinkConstruct: @rel values References: <42771422-372D-11D9-88C4-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> In-Reply-To: <42771422-372D-11D9-88C4-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Antone Roundy wrote: > > Okay, I'll argue this now: I for one would like to keep more @rel values > than PaceFieldingLinks retains. The point of PaceFieldingLinks is that you can register whatever you want. Antone Roundy wrote: > unless Link Constructs are constrained to > the point where an application can handle unknown Link Constructs in > some default way without...how to say it...doing something stupid, it > doesn't matter whether the application can recognize unknown Link > Constructs or not. Here's a first try: 3.5 A Link construct is an empty element that describes a connection from an Atom document to another Web resource. When a link is activated, User Agents are expected to visit the linked resource, rather than apply metadata such as schema or styling information as is common in HTML dialects. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 13:30:29 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA17962 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:30:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFIHSVp065131; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:17:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFIHSZd065130; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:17:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.143.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFIHRLg065118 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:17:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 308ADB4 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:17:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.150.112] (diva.verity.com [192.168.150.112]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id iAFIHGKB013171 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:17:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:25:35 -0800 From: Walter Underwood To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: PaceLinkDelicious, PaceLinkConstruct: @rel values Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4198ED1A.5000901@franklinmint.fm> References: <42771422-372D-11D9-88C4-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <4198ED1A.5000901@franklinmint.fm> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On Monday, November 15, 2004 12:53:30 PM -0500 Robert Sayre wrote: > > Here's a first try: > > 3.5 > A Link construct is an empty element that describes a connection from an > Atom document to another Web resource. When a link is activated, User Agents > are expected to visit the linked resource, rather than apply metadata such as > schema or styling information as is common in HTML dialects. As a spider maintainer, I like the "visit" language. Spiders need to guess whether to visit a link or not. This approach makes things easier for spiders, and makes Atom more search-friendly. wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect Verity Ultraseek From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 13:30:51 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA18005 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:30:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFIJOtm065870; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:19:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFIJNkc065868; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:19:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFIJMP9065783 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:19:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <20041115181918013006a4ine>; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:19:18 +0000 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:19:18 -0700 Subject: Re: PaceLinkDelicious, PaceLinkConstruct: @rel values Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <4198ED1A.5000901@franklinmint.fm> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, November 15, 2004, at 10:53 AM, Robert Sayre wrote: > Antone Roundy wrote: >> Okay, I'll argue this now: I for one would like to keep more @rel >> values than PaceFieldingLinks retains. > > The point of PaceFieldingLinks is that you can register whatever you > want. Yes, but if we think it probable that people are going to want links for certain purposes (like those I named), leaving them out of the initial registry leads to the risk of ending up with: and and and from various different people who all get the same bright idea. Sure, once someone bothers to register "about", we'll slowly converge on using the registered value, but I fear that the URI-using values are going to linger and duplicate each other for some time. The risk is the opposite of naming collision--multiple names for the same thing. So, how shall we evaluate which values to have in the initial registry? Here are some questions we might ask about them: 1) How likely is it that the value will be invented & deployed if not initially in the spec? 2) How likely is it that multiple values with the same meaning will be deployed? 3) How much more difficult will implementing Atom be if the value is added to the initial registry? Any others? > Antone Roundy wrote: > > > unless Link Constructs are constrained to > > the point where an application can handle unknown Link Constructs in > > some default way without...how to say it...doing something stupid, it > > doesn't matter whether the application can recognize unknown Link > > Constructs or not. > > Here's a first try: > > 3.5 > A Link construct is an empty element that describes a connection from > an Atom document to another Web resource. When a link is activated, > User Agents are expected to visit the linked resource, rather than > apply metadata such as schema or styling information as is common in > HTML dialects. I wouldn't object to that. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 13:50:54 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA19743 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:50:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFIVxnI069272; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:31:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFIVx8e069271; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:31:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chromium.sabren.com (chromium.sabren.com [69.20.61.177]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFIVwNb069236 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:31:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [172.16.4.22] (40322028.ptr.dia.nextlink.net [64.50.32.40]) (authenticated bits=0) by chromium.sabren.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iAFIVb8I030404; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:31:47 -0500 Message-ID: <4198F60D.1020507@intertwingly.net> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:31:41 -0500 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040803 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Antone Roundy CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: PaceFieldingLinks References: <7A5B6FE1-3729-11D9-88C4-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> In-Reply-To: <7A5B6FE1-3729-11D9-88C4-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Antone Roundy wrote: > > I noticed this Pace doesn't mention canonicalization, and from what I > can tell, RFC2396bis section 3 leaves room for variety in how a URI may > be formed. Shall we add language similar to that found in section 3.6 > (identity constructs), specifically 3.5.1 (recommended normalization > strategry) and 3.6.2 (character-by-character comparison)? We could also > simply refer to those sections and say "follow the same rules". I don't see the need. Links and identity are different: Comparison is a fundamental aspect of identity. Fetching is a fundamental aspect of links. - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 13:58:30 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA20566 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:58:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFIg23I071382; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:42:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFIg2DK071381; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:42:02 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFIg2Le071374 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:42:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CTlng-0004Wj-1w; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:42:04 +0000 Message-ID: <4198F87A.8030203@franklinmint.fm> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:42:02 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Antone Roundy CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: PaceLinkDelicious, PaceLinkConstruct: @rel values References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Antone Roundy wrote: > The risk is the opposite > of naming collision--multiple names for the same thing. This is a problem for any format that's extensible in a decentralized manner. There's nothing we can do about it. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 13:59:54 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA20768 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:59:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFIl3Kq072354; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:47:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFIl28M072353; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:47:02 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFIl2cQ072346 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:47:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CTlsX-0004nu-9H for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:47:05 +0000 Message-ID: <4198F9A7.6040803@franklinmint.fm> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:47:03 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: PaceRelationshipConstruct, PaceConstructAttribute Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -1 on both. These seem like low-quality versions of XLink and/or RDF/XML. Atom is open enough that technologies like that can be included as extensions. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 14:07:50 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA21704 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:07:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFIqUfJ073705; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:52:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFIqUnP073704; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:52:30 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFIqTYn073681 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:52:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <2004111518522701600qmb9se>; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:52:28 +0000 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:52:26 -0700 Subject: Re: PaceFieldingLinks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <4198F60D.1020507@intertwingly.net> Message-Id: <7E58E98F-3737-11D9-88C4-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, November 15, 2004, at 11:31 AM, Sam Ruby wrote: > Antone Roundy wrote: >> I noticed this Pace doesn't mention canonicalization, and from what I >> can tell, RFC2396bis section 3 leaves room for variety in how a URI >> may be formed. Shall we add language similar to that found in >> section 3.6 (identity constructs), specifically 3.5.1 (recommended >> normalization strategry) and 3.6.2 (character-by-character >> comparison)? We could also simply refer to those sections and say >> "follow the same rules". > > I don't see the need. Links and identity are different: > > Comparison is a fundamental aspect of identity. > > Fetching is a fundamental aspect of links. Okay, I wasn't clear--I was referring to the URIs that are used as @rel values for things not in the registry. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 14:22:37 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA22891 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:22:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFJ95e1078035; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:09:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFJ95HA078034; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:09:05 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFJ94BP077997 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:09:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <20041115190903014009krcbe>; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:09:03 +0000 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:09:01 -0700 Subject: Re: PaceLinkDelicious, PaceLinkConstruct: @rel values Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <4198F87A.8030203@franklinmint.fm> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, November 15, 2004, at 11:42 AM, Robert Sayre wrote: > Antone Roundy wrote: >> The risk is the opposite of naming collision--multiple names for the >> same thing. > > This is a problem for any format that's extensible in a decentralized > manner. There's nothing we can do about it. > There is something we can do about it--we can build a few more values into the initial registry which are likely to get created (though perhaps as URIs rather than, or in addition to, in the registry--leading to duplication). Sure, we won't forestall all duplication, but why not try to exercise a little judgment and deliver an initial spec with things that are likely to come up already built in? From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 14:34:46 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA24025 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:34:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFJMlgT081621; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:22:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFJMlPb081620; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:22:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk ([161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFJMkBi081424 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:22:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iAFJLWAH009916; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:21:32 GMT In-Reply-To: <4198F60D.1020507@intertwingly.net> References: <7A5B6FE1-3729-11D9-88C4-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <4198F60D.1020507@intertwingly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-3--167274432; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <8F82E27C-373B-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Cc: Antone Roundy , atom-syntax@imc.org From: Graham Subject: Re: PaceFieldingLinks Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:21:33 +0000 To: Sam Ruby X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-3--167274432 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 15 Nov 2004, at 6:31 pm, Sam Ruby wrote: > I don't see the need. Links and identity are different: > > Comparison is a fundamental aspect of identity. > > Fetching is a fundamental aspect of links. I think Antone was referring to the URI used in the rel value - that is an identifier, and some discussion of comparison etc is required. 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Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:55:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFJkZfB089119; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:46:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFJkZhG089118; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:46:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFJkZYk089112 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:46:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 22481 invoked by uid 17064); 15 Nov 2004 19:46:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.128.139]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 15 Nov 2004 19:46:38 -0000 In-Reply-To: References: <77018B0D-3721-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <0E9F2C83-373F-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Graham From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:46:35 +0100 To: "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stating that something is not so ok, but you will not be surprised if it is thought to be very weak position. If you wish to make a more constructive argument, which may be thought to have more weight, you need to find a principled reason for rejecting my proposal. I suggest you first reply in detail to the post by Anotone Roundy [1] and specify exactly where you think the difference is and why the difference is more important than the benefits to be gained by ignoring them. In the end I am not bothered if an atom head is not an atom entry. If the difference really is fundamental we shall have learned something important. Henry Story [1] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11577.html On 15 Nov 2004, at 17:52, Graham wrote: > "The 'atom:head' is an Atom Entry" > > No it isn't. Go away. > > Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 14:59:09 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA25935 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:59:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFJpm7e090437; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:51:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFJpmNF090436; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:51:48 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFJpmd0090418 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:51:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CTmtC-0007nx-TY; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:51:51 +0000 Message-ID: <419908D5.4040400@franklinmint.fm> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:51:49 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Antone Roundy CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: PaceLinkDelicious, PaceLinkConstruct: @rel values References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Antone Roundy wrote: > > On Monday, November 15, 2004, at 11:42 AM, Robert Sayre wrote: > >> Antone Roundy wrote: >> >>> The risk is the opposite of naming collision--multiple names for the >>> same thing. >> >> >> This is a problem for any format that's extensible in a decentralized >> manner. There's nothing we can do about it. >> > There is something we can do about it--we can build a few more values > into the initial registry which are likely to get created (though > perhaps as URIs rather than, or in addition to, in the registry--leading > to duplication). Sure, we won't forestall all duplication, but why not > try to exercise a little judgment and deliver an initial spec with > things that are likely to come up already built in? > The draft doesn't list a lot of rel values because we couldn't come to consensus on them. There's no reason to get bogged down in this discussion. There's a registry. People will use it. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 15:06:43 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA26595 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:06:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFJuhaC091578; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:56:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFJuh5W091577; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:56:43 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.200]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFJuhLL091542 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:56:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so529839rns for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:56:44 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=Lb1J5PPfUqDcF8ZLl/xXcwxgKksiItx+vFWpSUtZmPZV61CPYN1/DdRQHKhWwLz3OyUUCmXV5OxVAUDrdGAcu2Vd8Z7Jfh3a2kkGeyjFa8SzWEPg3jPtddAKFwSi5qTm7E3l6r3UXvWPbA9tvFcV2epiqLmFp7++wQfeI2bKN+4= Received: by 10.38.179.67 with SMTP id b67mr1146167rnf; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:56:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.40 with HTTP; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:56:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd041115115621b132f8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:56:44 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #12 Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd04110902541b54139b@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <84DE3206-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <1f2ed5cd04110815585b921983@mail.gmail.com> <41901063.4020503@itst.net> <41901213.8070505@franklinmint.fm> <1f2ed5cd04110902114f9317a9@mail.gmail.com> <41909A0C.3020908@dehora.net> <1f2ed5cd04110902541b54139b@mail.gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iAFJuhLL091572 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:54:28 +0100, Danny Ayers wrote: > On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 10:21:00 +0000, Bill de hÓra wrote: > > Send a link. I'll explain it. Wind whistles...tumbleweed drifts by... > Choosing latest entry from multiple feeds: > http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg10894.html > > Single feed for project documentation: > http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg10931.html > > I've also not seen any considered response to Bob's point, that at > entries published after a particular atom:updated would implicitly be > treated as equivalent. > > [[ > This implies that if I find multiple versions of an entry, I should > ignore all but the *first* instance of an entry found with any > particular atom:updated value. I should not be concerned with > identifying the "latest" version since any version that shares the > same atom:updated value is equivalent in the opinion of the publisher. > The opinion of the publisher is paramount in these issues. > ]] > http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg10930.html > > > > Cheers, > Danny. > > -- > > http://dannyayers.com > -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 15:17:36 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA28164 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:17:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFK9bPm094782; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:09:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFK9alL094775; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:09:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFK9asf094737 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:09:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iAFK8JBx023355; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:08:25 GMT In-Reply-To: <0E9F2C83-373F-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> References: <77018B0D-3721-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <0E9F2C83-373F-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-4--164468649; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <17E36F4C-3742-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Cc: "'Atom WG'" From: Graham Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:08:18 +0000 To: Henry Story X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-4--164468649 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My problem with PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown is that it does not assume a pilchard is an Atom Entry. I suggest you first reply in detail and specify exactly where you think the difference is and why the difference is more important than the benefits to be gained by ignoring them. Graham --Apple-Mail-4--164468649 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMTE1MjAwODE5WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUjA1kdY09HRnK08NG3cpsguNl V8wweAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEAwrs6y6BMpGxPXc8Fzk/KXl5s NGYIAAs0nb/TrGIPTwY3gKs35GzRTMehMy/8aIn4MLm4bLx31a7qwDvWHr6NAaUkChtpU7wkO09q V4iVu5uk/pMMjuA3MJEBbJ/jLsglp4SEDic9Lvfwkp8rqCgglLPYZoMAGOy1QfvonKL24GZ+Qvx1 TR9X/X6DZ00xmz/CDr+gGuExqCI8SpPiuWcmsjZlpML0SbnV3LNiKaZ7xCMzOBdoZN4fVeSWP+DK WC7k6hWDdinJRfPahZw4hPFi6QcRXe0/jtOtoORP1d3mIYwqCN8tZjawdJrbNIhl7FT80VyjJiQG k2W1fQFljx0sdQAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-4--164468649-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 15:29:44 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA29639 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:29:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFKJNcq097156; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:19:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFKJNPN097155; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:19:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFKJNYo097149 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:19:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <2004111520192101500dk25de>; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:19:21 +0000 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:19:20 -0700 Subject: Re: PaceLinkDelicious, PaceLinkConstruct: @rel values Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <419908D5.4040400@franklinmint.fm> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, November 15, 2004, at 12:51 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: > The draft doesn't list a lot of rel values because we couldn't come to > consensus on them. The API draft has a number of rel values which PaceFieldingLinks is trying to remove. > There's no reason to get bogged down in this discussion. My recollection is that where we've bogged down is on discussion of whether and how to make link extensible, and that discussion of specific @rel values has simply been drowned out by that discussion. But if no one speaks up in support of "about", "start", "prev", "next" and "comment", then fine--I'll shut my mouth. > There's a registry. People will use it. There's a way to mint @rel values without the registry. People will use it. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 15:33:51 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA29961 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:33:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFKQ07v098974; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:26:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFKQ0i3098973; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:26:00 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFKPxG5098898 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:25:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from quark (58.80-202-95.nextgentel.com [80.202.95.58]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BE621005; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:25:49 +0100 (MET) To: "Antone Roundy" Cc: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: PaceFieldingLinks References: <7A5B6FE1-3729-11D9-88C4-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Message-ID: From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:27:29 +0100 In-Reply-To: <7A5B6FE1-3729-11D9-88C4-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:12:07 -0700, Antone Roundy wrote: > I noticed this Pace doesn't mention canonicalization, and from what I > can tell, RFC2396bis section 3 leaves room for variety in how a URI may > be formed. Shall we add language similar to that found in section 3.6 > (identity constructs), specifically 3.5.1 (recommended normalization > strategry) and 3.6.2 (character-by-character comparison)? We could also > simply refer to those sections and say "follow the same rules". I think we should try to define atom:link/@rel as a type of «Identity Construct». That saves a lot of language, at least. -- Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- http://virtuelvis.com/quark/ «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 15:34:24 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA00019 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:34:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFKPlxJ098907; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:25:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFKPlfa098906; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:25:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFKPk8C098899 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:25:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 50558 invoked by uid 17064); 15 Nov 2004 20:25:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.128.139]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 15 Nov 2004 20:25:50 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: <17E36F4C-3742-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> References: <77018B0D-3721-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <0E9F2C83-373F-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <17E36F4C-3742-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <88C62BDB-3744-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:25:47 +0100 To: Graham , "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you wish to argue that a pilchard is an Atom entry, please put forward a pace to that effect, with supporting argument, and it will be my pleasure to read it and comment on it as best I can. PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 is an actual Pace with supporting arguments from Anotone Roundy [1], which on the face of it have a lot of weight. Henry Story [1] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11577.html On 15 Nov 2004, at 21:08, Graham wrote: > My problem with PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown is that it does not assume a > pilchard is an Atom Entry. I suggest you first reply in detail and > specify exactly where you think the difference is and why the > difference is more important than the benefits to be gained by > ignoring them. > > Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 15:47:15 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA01183 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:47:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFKeWKc002702; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:40:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFKeWDH002701; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:40:32 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFKeVSK002695 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:40:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CTneM-0001kQ-9v; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:40:34 +0000 Message-ID: <41991440.2000601@franklinmint.fm> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:40:32 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Antone Roundy CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: PaceLinkDelicious, PaceLinkConstruct: @rel values References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Antone Roundy wrote: > > On Monday, November 15, 2004, at 12:51 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: > >> The draft doesn't list a lot of rel values because we couldn't come to >> consensus on them. > > The API draft has a number of rel values which PaceFieldingLinks is > trying to remove. > Those are already gone, per PaceMoveLinkElement. Also, I just noticed PaceLinkAttrDefaults is incorrectly listed for closure. It was accepted and is included in format-03.[0] Those two Paces took care of those values. >> There's no reason to get bogged down in this discussion. > > My recollection is that where we've bogged down is on discussion of > whether and how to make link extensible, and that discussion of specific > @rel values has simply been drowned out by that discussion. But if no > one speaks up in support of "about", "start", "prev", "next" and > "comment", then fine--I'll shut my mouth. > The way to do this is to write a proposal. This argument is unrelated to PaceFieldingLinks, isn't it? Robert Sayre [0] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg10651.html From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 15:59:32 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA03552 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:59:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFKqbPR006142; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:52:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFKqbsA006141; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:52:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFKqaxh006131 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:52:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from quark (58.80-202-95.nextgentel.com [80.202.95.58]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AE6A5E22; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:52:35 +0100 (MET) To: "Antone Roundy" Cc: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: PaceLinkDelicious, PaceLinkConstruct: @rel values References: Message-ID: Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:54:16 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:09:01 -0700, Antone Roundy wrote: >> This is a problem for any format that's extensible in a decentralized >> manner. There's nothing we can do about it. > > There is something we can do about it--we can build a few more values > into the initial registry which are likely to get created I agree with Antone. The link relations he enumerated are well-proved in the HTML world and I see absolutely no reason for them not to be used in Atom as well. And if we get to the very unlikely spot that they aren't used at all -- is that really so awful? +1 to Antone's suggestion, iow. -- Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- http://virtuelvis.com/quark/ «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 16:01:05 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA04019 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:01:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFKu7vd007416; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:56:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFKu7O2007415; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:56:07 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFKu7g4007387 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:56:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <20041115205605014005b9tve>; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:56:06 +0000 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:56:00 -0700 Subject: Re: PaceLinkDelicious, PaceLinkConstruct: @rel values Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <41991440.2000601@franklinmint.fm> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, November 15, 2004, at 01:40 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: > Antone Roundy wrote: >> On Monday, November 15, 2004, at 12:51 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: >>> The draft doesn't list a lot of rel values because we couldn't come >>> to consensus on them. >> The API draft has a number of rel values which PaceFieldingLinks is >> trying to remove. > > Those are already gone, per PaceMoveLinkElement. Scheduled to be gone from the API spec, yes, but considering that Pace alone, moved into the format spec. > Also, I just noticed PaceLinkAttrDefaults is incorrectly listed for > closure. It was accepted and is included in format-03.[0] > > [0] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg10651.html Ay carumba! Tim did in fact make that call, and nobody objected. Okay. For my part, I'm on the "we shoulda kept 'em in" side of the lack of consensus, but if nobody else cares, I'm not going to continue to fight for the cause. I would have appreciated seeing specific arguments against each...which I don't THINK I ever saw. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 16:19:17 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA10092 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:19:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFLB2Q4011273; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:11:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFLB298011272; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:11:02 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail09.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail09.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iAFLB1AN011253 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:11:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 32226 messnum 1994909 invoked from network[83.70.225.10/83-70-225-10.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 15 Nov 2004 21:11:00 -0000 Received: from 83-70-225-10.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?192.168.123.143?) (83.70.225.10) by mail09.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 32226) with SMTP; 15 Nov 2004 21:11:00 -0000 Message-ID: <41991B61.3020104@dehora.net> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:10:57 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #12 References: <84DE3206-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <1f2ed5cd04110815585b921983@mail.gmail.com> <41901063.4020503@itst.net> <41901213.8070505@franklinmint.fm> <1f2ed5cd04110902114f9317a9@mail.gmail.com> <41909A0C.3020908@dehora.net> <1f2ed5cd04110902541b54139b@mail.gmail.com> <1f2ed5cd041115115621b132f8@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd041115115621b132f8@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Danny Ayers wrote: > On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:54:28 +0100, Danny Ayers wrote: > >>On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 10:21:00 +0000, Bill de hÓra wrote: > > >>>Send a link. I'll explain it. > > Wind whistles...tumbleweed drifts by... Danny, My apologies. I'm shipping 2 systems. This explanation requires more than a dashed off or reactive mail and won't get looked at until next weekend. If that's too long for you, I concede. The above observation, I believe, could have been phrased: "Have you had a chance to do this yet?" and would perhaps have been more conducive. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 16:22:14 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA10546 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:22:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFLFtwJ012410; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:15:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFLFtf4012409; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:15:55 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFLFth4012403 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:15:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 85314 invoked by uid 17064); 15 Nov 2004 21:15:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.128.139]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 15 Nov 2004 21:15:59 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: <1027E512-3747-11D9-88C4-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> References: <1027E512-3747-11D9-88C4-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <8AE1E186-374B-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:15:57 +0100 To: Antone Roundy , "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 15 Nov 2004, at 21:43, Antone Roundy wrote: > On Monday, November 15, 2004, at 01:25 PM, Henry Story wrote: >> PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 is an actual Pace with supporting arguments >> from Anotone Roundy [1], which on the face of it have a lot of >> weight. >> >> [1] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11577.html >> > For the record, I'm not yet convinced. While, as my message outlined, > I think there are reasonable ways to reconcile many of the differences > between head and entry, I did also mention a few differences that I'd > like to see addressed specifically. If justification can't be given > for the issues with introspection, generator, content, origin, id and > tagline/summary, then I'm not ready to bite yet--certainly not on > calling head an entry, and perhaps not on merging head and entry > within the spec. Yes, I had understood very well, Antone. You perfectly outlined the problem. I had myself not yet done this detail work with the latest spec, as there are some aspects of the spec that I don't completely understand, and as it has changed a lot. Now with PaceDeclareVictoryOnFormat on the table, cleaning up exercises such as this make a lot of sense. For the record I am not convinced myself in being correct on this issue. I am convinced it is really worth investigating though. Here I will attempt to answer these questions. These are attempts only. If other people have better arguments I am very open to them. On 15 Nov 2004, at 16:55, Antone Roundy wrote: > Other differences: > * introspection - I'm not up on what the introspection file is all > about enough to comment on this one I don't understand introspection that well either. But I suspect there would be no harm with Entries having introspection files too. > * generator - I don't see this making sense in entry Well, why not? This could make a lot of sense for aggregator feeds, it seems to me. > * content - I don't see this making sense in head Why not: Add a bit of nice content to the head, for richer news readers may be quite nice. It works out quite nicely for James Gosling's blog [1] > * origin - I don't see this making sense in head Good one. I don't know about this. Perhaps this would make sense in the case of a feed inside a feed: namely responses to someone's entry. If you think of the responses as constituting a feed with the original post as the "head" then this feed would in fact have an origin feed. > * id: required in entry, not in head - as it should be Mhhh. I had not realized that the id was mandatory in atom entries. Of course if you think about using the Atom API for setting your feed head entry, then it would not be silly for your entry to have an id. It may also be what is needed to allow you to change your feed head over time, (say you make a spelling mistake in your feed head), and yet be able to talk about it being the same feed. > * if tagline becomes summary, the fact that it's sometimes required in > entry, but never in head - as it should be Yes. But why do you really want to make it required for a feed? Henry Story [1] http://today.java.net/jag/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 16:43:01 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA13755 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:43:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFKi2UT003958; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:44:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFKi2bn003957; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:44:02 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFKi2Ng003916 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:44:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <20041115204355014005e7qhe>; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:43:55 +0000 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:43:53 -0700 Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <88C62BDB-3744-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Message-Id: <1027E512-3747-11D9-88C4-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, November 15, 2004, at 01:25 PM, Henry Story wrote: > PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 is an actual Pace with supporting arguments > from Anotone Roundy [1], which on the face of it have a lot of weight. > > [1] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11577.html > For the record, I'm not yet convinced. While, as my message outlined, I think there are reasonable ways to reconcile many of the differences between head and entry, I did also mention a few differences that I'd like to see addressed specifically. If justification can't be given for the issues with introspection, generator, content, origin, id and tagline/summary, then I'm not ready to bite yet--certainly not on calling head an entry, and perhaps not on merging head and entry within the spec. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 17:15:27 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA18556 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:15:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFM3Tvu024278; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:03:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFM3TwP024277; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:03:29 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.143.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFM3Sxe024232 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:03:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13787113 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:03:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.150.112] (diva.verity.com [192.168.150.112]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id iAFM3RKB013814 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:03:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:11:47 -0800 From: Walter Underwood To: "'Atom WG'" Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 Message-ID: <88A444DD3D9BAEF3A226665C@diva.verity.com> In-Reply-To: <88C62BDB-3744-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> References: <77018B0D-3721-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <0E9F2C83-373F-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <17E36F4C-3742-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <88C62BDB-3744-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On Monday, November 15, 2004 09:25:47 PM +0100 Henry Story wrote: > > PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 is an actual Pace with supporting arguments from > Anotone Roundy [1], which on the face of it have a lot of weight. -1 All the arguments for are based on structural similarity. That is enough to suggest that they are related, but not enough to prove it. A shopping cart and a baby stroller are structurally similar, but that doesn't automatically make them related. >From a search point of view, a feed is almost always going to be a sequence of separate documents, each of which are indexed separately. It is certainly possible to have a feed that represents an issue of a magazine, or all the entries in a particular category. That feed could be treated as a document. On the other hand, those clusters can easily be created without being a separate feed. Use the category info, for example. 99% of the time, a feed is going to be a chronological sequence and entries are going to be the "real" documents. wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect Verity Ultraseek From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 18:01:20 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA22612 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:01:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFMqOpu037332; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:52:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFMqONX037331; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:52:24 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFMqNLc037296 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:52:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iAFMpbck013449; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:51:42 GMT In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-5--154669385; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Graham Subject: Re: PaceLinkByLocation et al--what is a "link"? Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:51:38 +0000 To: Antone Roundy X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-5--154669385 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yep, Antone. Although no one actually has a use for generically-findable link elements, we seem to be stuck with them anyway, and stuck with creating a brand new namespace mechanism for it for no reason. Never mind. Maybe there's another atompub group somewhere we can join that isn't so pigheaded about this. Graham On 15 Nov 2004, at 5:27 pm, Antone Roundy wrote: > With something akin to PaceLinkPurpose (which is in the recommended > for closure list...a fact I will object to here, but unless somebody > else speaks up, I won't waste any more effort advocating it), I think > the value of PaceLinkByLocation, PaceConstructAttribute, > PaceFieldingLinks, and PaceLinkRelPrefixReg is limited mostly[1] to > name collision avoidance. In other words, unless Link Constructs are > constrained to the point where an application can handle unknown Link > Constructs in some default way without...how to say it...doing > something stupid, it doesn't matter whether the application can > recognize unknown Link Constructs or not. > > [1] PaceConstructAttribute might have some usefulness with respect to > other construct types (BTW, the list of its values needs to be > expanded to include one for each construct type defined in the > spec...I'll have to get to that). PaceFieldingLinks also defines a > default @rel value, and pares down the list of @rel values (...too > much, in my opinion, but I'd rather argue that later). > --Apple-Mail-5--154669385 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMTE1MjI1MTM4WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUBgSAp2CUxS2Kn6ZNN7W041AT wBwweAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEAW+5nJx3t+a/aKzrydnhYxumW Yn77cYl/O+afd8v5VCqWL4EPBJlXKtW64AHocFNUI5HfApUr3iD1AkaHS2Ib1xQNyHsZxoSfnblv 32LSvkSlqaolF3dfbNqaBV0tJiuU7izppZRGlqqBbG8jUV0cnV4xDAGR7527v4uun7mql0NIIr6j XDjOdBmeCJGa4Vqmsrt+/ep7lHJiWziqFGR+xBuen7chI0JNOSQMkX05GlhVahzVR8Yf1BCHtsLI c0MUaWT8Ufxodx7mUnt7LNXPTGUV7ulBYT5khc8A4nn4idPg3LV2PTReKrx5549vcCY3lKJUF1UD LZJ9BJNnOMCfpgAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-5--154669385-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 18:52:44 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA27407 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:52:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFNikNS051423; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:44:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFNikTx051421; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:44:46 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [10.20.30.239] (adsl-66-125-125-65.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [66.125.125.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFNiiJk051404 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:44:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:44:48 -0800 To: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: PaceLinkByLocation et al--what is a "link"? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At 10:51 PM +0000 11/15/04, Graham wrote: >Maybe there's another atompub group somewhere we can join that isn't >so pigheaded about this. Maybe that group would also be amenable to name-calling; judging from my personal mail about your recent postings, this one certainly isn't. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 18:57:08 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA27801 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:57:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFNp02M053179; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:51:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAFNp07S053178; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:51:00 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAFNoxU5053168 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:51:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from duerst@w3.org) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDD954F0B9; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:51:02 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20041116084255.03ba1910@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:45:30 +0900 To: mint@franklinmint.fm, Antone Roundy From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: PaceLinkDelicious, PaceLinkConstruct: @rel values Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <4198ED1A.5000901@franklinmint.fm> References: <42771422-372D-11D9-88C4-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <4198ED1A.5000901@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 02:53 04/11/16, Robert Sayre wrote: > >Antone Roundy wrote: >> Okay, I'll argue this now: I for one would like to keep more @rel values than PaceFieldingLinks retains. > >The point of PaceFieldingLinks is that you can register whatever you want. I have to admit that I'm not an expert on @rel values. But I think that PaceFieldingLinks is essentially orthogonal to the number of link types predefined in the spec. That could be close to 0, or it could be a rather long list. I personally think that most if not all link types currently used in the wild shoud be predefined; there is no point in forcing a wave of registrations to IANA for things that we anyway know will be used. This is similar to how the 'charset' registry was started. For the language tag registry, the base was a pre-existing standard. Having some good examples in the registry from the start will also help future registrants. Regards, Martin. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 19:19:46 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA29922 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:19:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG0C4O2058541; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:12:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAG0C45m058539; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:12:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG0C2Wk058474 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:12:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (203.30.247.2) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:11:36 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:11:35 +1100 Subject: Re: PaceLinkDelicious, PaceLinkConstruct: @rel values From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20041116084255.03ba1910@localhost> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 16/11/04 10:45 AM, "Martin Duerst" wrote: > I personally think that most if not all link types currently used in the wild > shoud be predefined; there is no point in forcing a wave of registrations to > IANA for things that we anyway know will be used. > +1 > Having some good examples in the registry from the start will also help future > registrants. > +1 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 19:19:46 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA29924 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:19:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG0C4cZ058540; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:12:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAG0C42p058538; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:12:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG0C2WM058509 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:12:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (203.30.247.2) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:11:57 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:54:08 +1100 Subject: Re: PaceFieldingLinks From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7A5B6FE1-3729-11D9-88C4-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 16/11/04 4:12 AM, "Antone Roundy" wrote: > I noticed this Pace doesn't mention canonicalization it also doesn't mention how the @rel values are to be compared. I suggest they should be treated as strings (that look like URIs) to forestall any munging of the URIs to different forms. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 20:47:04 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA06248 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:47:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG1a5ZX085094; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:36:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAG1a5D3085093; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:36:05 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG1a4Nh085076 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:36:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.3]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CTsGO-0001ll-8b; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 01:36:08 +0000 Message-ID: <41995987.3010600@franklinmint.fm> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:36:07 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Duerst CC: Antone Roundy , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: rel registry (was: PaceLinkDelicious, PaceLinkConstruct: @rel values) References: <42771422-372D-11D9-88C4-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <4198ED1A.5000901@franklinmint.fm> <6.0.0.20.2.20041116084255.03ba1910@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20041116084255.03ba1910@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Martin Duerst wrote: > > I personally think that most if not all link types currently used > in the wild shoud be predefined; there is no point in forcing a wave > of registrations to IANA for things that we anyway know will be used. > I would be OK with this, but I don't want to give the impression that applications have to support our initial list of rel values. For example, I can see many applications not caring about rel="comments". Does the spec have to list the initial values of the registry, or can we work that out separately? Robert Sayre P.S. -- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NetNewsWire/message/1757 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 21:05:24 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA07393 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:05:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG1xXLC002300; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:59:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAG1xXXq002299; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:59:33 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG1xVi1002290 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:59:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:59:35 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:59:34 +1100 Subject: Re: rel registry (was: PaceLinkDelicious, PaceLinkConstruct: @rel values) From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <41995987.3010600@franklinmint.fm> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 16/11/04 12:36 PM, "Robert Sayre" wrote: > I would be OK with this, but I don't want to give the impression that > applications have to support our initial list of rel values. the proposed spec text already says this: The value of rel describes the meaning of the link, but does not impose any behavioral requirements on implementations. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 21:28:58 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA09050 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:28:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG2Murq025248; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:22:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAG2Munc025245; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:22:56 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr5.netsolmail.com (omr5.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.142]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG2MtrR025179 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:22:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr5.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAG2MwlH006891; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:22:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from boblaptop (68-174-167-137.nyc.rr.com [68.174.167.137]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BYS19062; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:22:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411160222.BYS19062@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Walter Underwood'" , "'Atom WG'" Subject: RE: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:22:53 -0500 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Thread-Index: AcTLYdY/yoLepPd1RZO86pWNz8znIAAHWm0w X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <88A444DD3D9BAEF3A226665C@diva.verity.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter Underwood wrote: > All the arguments for are based on structural similarity. That is > enough to suggest that they are related, but not enough to prove > it. A shopping cart and a baby stroller are structurally similar, > but that doesn't automatically make them related. Darn. Walter beat me to it... Yes, the key is that Roundy's arguments address only the form of the two elements, not their substance or function. This is like saying that monkeys and men are the same because they both have two arms, two legs, etc. -- they even share common ancestry. Admittedly, in some contexts, it is useful to see both as "primates," however, in most other contexts, it is best to treat them as dissimilar. The mere fact that we've chosen to provide a "title" in both head and entry does not mean they are the same nor does it mean that "title" means the same in both contexts. In fact, it does not. The "title" of a head is not the head's title. Rather, it is the title of the feed that contains the head. The title of an entry, on the other hand, is that of the entry itself. One element contains data that describes itself -- the other contains data that describes its parent and the parent of the entries in the same feed. These differences are significant. I think one could argue that many of these apparent similarities are mere artifacts of the forms we've chosen. For instance, while I think it is natural to think of the "title" of an entry, I would not have been surprised if the supposedly similar element in head had been called "name." It seems odd to me to speak of the "title" for a feed. While I won't write a Pace to propose this, I would more comfortable speaking of the "name" of a feed and the "title" of an entry. (It's just a personal aesthetic thing...) Other differences are very clear to me -- even though element names are similar. For instance, I see a great difference (under US law) between the "copyright" of the collection which is held in head and the copyright for a distinct entry. These two similarly named elements are just as different from each other as they are similar. Just because head and entry share a large number of similarly named elements does not mean they are the same. Similarity of form does not imply similarity of substance. bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 21:30:34 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA09209 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:30:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG2N0fQ025300; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:23:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAG2N0dA025299; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:23:00 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG2MxYl025288 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:22:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.3]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CTszn-0004Kk-2k; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 02:23:03 +0000 Message-ID: <41996487.9010103@franklinmint.fm> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:23:03 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Scheid CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: rel registry (was: PaceLinkDelicious, PaceLinkConstruct: @rel values) References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Scheid wrote: > On 16/11/04 12:36 PM, "Robert Sayre" wrote: > > >>I would be OK with this, but I don't want to give the impression that >>applications have to support our initial list of rel values. > > > the proposed spec text already says this: > > The value of rel describes the meaning of the link, but does > not impose any behavioral requirements on implementations. Yes, I've read the Pace. That doesn't mean that the initial values won't be considered "special" by implementors. In any case, this debate is orthogonal to any Pace being considered right now. You guys are debating things that have already been accepted. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 21:40:30 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA10093 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:40:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG2XVA7034035; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:33:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAG2XVcK034034; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:33:31 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG2XV9K033890 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:33:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from quark (58.80-202-95.nextgentel.com [80.202.95.58]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10BDD60B0; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 03:33:31 +0100 (MET) To: "Martin Duerst" Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: PaceLinkDelicious, PaceLinkConstruct: @rel values References: <42771422-372D-11D9-88C4-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <4198ED1A.5000901@franklinmint.fm> <6.0.0.20.2.20041116084255.03ba1910@localhost> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 03:35:12 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20041116084255.03ba1910@localhost> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:45:30 +0900, Martin Duerst wrote: > But I think that PaceFieldingLinks is essentially orthogonal to the > number of link types predefined in the spec. That could be close to > 0, or it could be a rather long list. I agree with you in that. > I personally think that most if not all link types currently used > in the wild shoud be predefined; there is no point in forcing a wave > of registrations to IANA for things that we anyway know will be used. +1. We already know a lot about current practice, in HTML, RSS and even Atom. We also know something about needs that aren't fulfilled by any standards. We should at least cater for current practice and bake those @rel values into the spec. -- Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- http://virtuelvis.com/quark/ «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 21:41:28 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA10220 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:41:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG2WIN3032778; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:32:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAG2WIHC032775; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:32:18 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr5.netsolmail.com (omr5.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.142]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG2WHUj032762 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:32:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr5.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAG2WKlJ009454; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:32:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from boblaptop (68-174-167-137.nyc.rr.com [68.174.167.137]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BYS20766; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:32:19 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411160232.BYS20766@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Eric Scheid'" , "'Atom Syntax'" Subject: RE: PaceLinkDelicious, PaceLinkConstruct: @rel values Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:32:16 -0500 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Thread-Index: AcTLcvkmjIDXiJ+KQceZSCAqBQ6vhgAEPMeA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Scheid wrote: >On 16/11/04 10:45 AM, "Martin Duerst" wrote: >> I personally think that most if not all link types currently used >> in the wild shoud be predefined; there is no point in forcing a >> wave of registrations to IANA for things that we anyway know will >> be used. > +1 +1. I also support pre-registration of as many of these link types as we can reasonably think of. It costs virtually nothing to pre-register this stuff yet it costs a great deal (time, effort, attention) to get things registered in the future. bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 21:45:07 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA10446 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:45:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG2auot037767; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:36:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAG2auTb037766; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:36:56 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr5.netsolmail.com (omr5.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.142]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG2atvF037750 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:36:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr5.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAG2awlH010735; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:36:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from boblaptop (68-174-167-137.nyc.rr.com [68.174.167.137]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BYS21654; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:36:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411160236.BYS21654@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Robert Sayre'" , "'Martin Duerst'" Cc: "'Antone Roundy'" , Subject: RE: rel registry (was: PaceLinkDelicious, PaceLinkConstruct: @rel values) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:36:54 -0500 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Thread-Index: AcTLf2ud/9fOMitOT2q6zgwYmdBGoQABUOgw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <41995987.3010600@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Sayre wrote: > Does the spec have to list the initial values of the registry, > or can we work that out separately? Why create two documents when you can accomplish the job with one? Often, IETF RFC's that are spread over multiple documents end up suffering when one document is considered the "essential" stuff and people simply fail to ever getting around to reading the other stuff... Putting the list of initial registrations in the spec would do much to get that list more widely known -- and thus increase interop between systems in the future. bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 22:18:20 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA19176 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:18:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG35SbZ061218; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:05:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAG35SI1061217; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:05:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG35Rbi061206 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:05:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from quark (58.80-202-95.nextgentel.com [80.202.95.58]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 610475BF3; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 04:05:28 +0100 (MET) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 04:07:09 +0100 To: "Tim Bray" Subject: Re: PaceMustUnderstandElement (was Re: Published extensibility Paces) Cc: "Atom WG" References: <3f1451f504111112032183dffb@mail.gmail.com> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3865) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:12:06 -0800, Tim Bray wrote: > A conformant processor of Atom documents cannot (if this were adopted) > ignore atom:must-understand. Which is why I dislike any «must understand» mechanism very much. It is a huge burden to have to comply to this for implementors, and simple XSLT transforms of Atom to whatever is suddenly not so simple anymore. Extensibility is nice, but I don't really see any great value in making it possible for third-parties to extend Atom in an incompatible way. The way I see it; if you want to make an incompatible version of Atom, then just fork it. Create your own format in your own namespace and don't bother anyone with it. If you want it to be compatible, you can't use «must understand» anyway, and need to use the other extensibility options we give in the specification, such as @rel values and namespaced elements. Iow, I'm -1 on any «must understand» extensibility mechanism. -- Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- http://virtuelvis.com/quark/ «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 22:19:36 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA19920 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:19:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3Buqi062659; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:11:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAG3Buwj062657; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:11:56 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3BoxY062512 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:11:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tbray@textuality.com) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3Buui005918 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:11:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I79001CA4VV4K@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:11:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.150.177.16] ([206.16.228.19]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0I79008R74VUUW@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:11:55 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:05:08 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: PaceRelationshipConstruct To: "'Atom WG'" Message-id: <2D1CD97C-3763-11D9-BA61-000A95A51C9E@textuality.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT -1 It's not hideous, but I like several of the other options around linking much better. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 22:20:32 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA20473 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:20:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3BsUX062623; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:11:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAG3BskA062622; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:11:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3BqoE062561 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:11:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3Bwui005931 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:11:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I79001GR4VX4L@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:11:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.150.177.16] ([206.16.228.19]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0I79008R74VUUW@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:11:57 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:59:26 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: PaceHeadInEntry To: "'Atom WG'" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT +1, for what it's worth. I can't think of any gotchas and I do think composite feeds of various kinds are going to be real important. This Pace should be updated to remove atom:origin, which IMHO it supercedes. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 22:20:57 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA20724 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:20:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3BsCY062598; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:11:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAG3BrFO062585; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:11:53 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3BpWv062553 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:11:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3BwNH002233 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:11:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I79001GR4VX4L@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:11:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.150.177.16] ([206.16.228.19]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0I79008R74VUUW@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:11:57 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:00:47 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: PaceLinkByLocation To: "'Atom WG'" Message-id: <302CACBD-375A-11D9-BA61-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I'm -0, I guess. I could live with this, but I like PaceFieldingLinks quite a bit better. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 22:23:38 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA22314 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:23:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3BuZF062658; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:11:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAG3Buav062656; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:11:56 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3BoA1062515 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:11:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tbray@textuality.com) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3Buui005922 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:11:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I79001CA4VV4K@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:11:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.150.177.16] ([206.16.228.19]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0I79008R74VUUW@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:11:56 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:04:06 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: PaceMetaElement To: "'Atom WG'" Message-id: <089C5251-3763-11D9-BA61-000A95A51C9E@textuality.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT -1 My opinion might change given use-cases or examples, or a Pace that's not marked as being "just a sketch". -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 22:24:47 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA22988 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:24:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3Bp1P062560; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:11:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAG3BpEH062559; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:11:51 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3BoNp062528 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:11:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3BvNH002223 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:11:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I79001CA4VV4K@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:11:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.150.177.16] ([206.16.228.19]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0I79008R74VUUW@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:11:56 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:01:55 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: PaceLinkRelPrefixReg To: "'Atom WG'" Message-id: <58B5DFA1-375A-11D9-BA61-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT -0, I could live with it, I like FieldingLinks a lot better. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 22:28:10 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA24609 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:28:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3BsSt062627; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:11:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAG3BsaX062626; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:11:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3Bq7b062576 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:11:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3BwNH002237 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:11:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I79001GR4VX4L@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:11:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.150.177.16] ([206.16.228.19]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0I79008R74VUUW@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:11:58 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:55:34 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: PaceConstructAttribute To: "'Atom WG'" Message-id: <759EB690-3759-11D9-BA61-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT -1. If we were going to do this, there are a bunch of ways to do this, including one ("Architectural Forms") that's been standardized by ISO, and (I believe) some others under development in the Semantic Web context. Abstraction is hard to grasp and scares people who aren't language designers. Atom will not gain from wrapping simple concrete elements in veils of abstraction. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 22:32:56 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA24859 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:32:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3PLvv075802; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:25:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAG3PLXg075801; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:25:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3PK4Y075746 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:25:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iAG3ORpV003596; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 03:24:33 GMT In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-9--138300290; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <057225FD-377F-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Cc: "'Atom WG'" From: Graham Subject: Re: PaceHeadInEntry Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 03:24:27 +0000 To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-9--138300290 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 15 Nov 2004, at 10:59 pm, Tim Bray wrote: > +1, for what it's worth. I can't think of any gotchas and I do think > composite feeds of various kinds are going to be real important. > > This Pace should be updated to remove atom:origin, which IMHO it > supercedes. -Tim I think the Pace needs to be explicit that the entry inherits from its own head rather than from the main head. There need to be rules of how to interpret it. Also, it should probably be the first child of atom:entry, for the same reason the main atom:head already comes before all the other entries. Graham --Apple-Mail-9--138300290 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMTE2MDMyNDI3WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUtQGpezxfbI90TNjHioHgwRTX HmgweAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEAjQc0DWQiJ9eNLltispTjC2Q1 ElGV7ffzkVMsYDRQxqgKDO1VooU7ur5MwNsxnYjV9gbv9G4DvB3/joQo+LJJnjNzjCJhgCkiVdGE Ud8Ntp/JTpk6ZV717CzvCgKlewYmxKlEw6l0e6hFXKc5UOwT7++9ATj7S2p3EFwUL8bCR/7TotQe yjDi6PUZfBa1mhAt7T6k4gQ9XPj6LL90ISjtme8VUhw3jqUiGA10UcQwK36fy5yhv2cIhaFjpJtQ GuSqW/cawlhEquI53l19EtUmTRtsizfYpDEYDRls7rP0HMjFvXphJRkBJ42C6yBgBup97OuGBOxr 0W48oV1S2U3e+QAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-9--138300290-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 22:34:58 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA24915 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:34:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3Ll3T072392; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:21:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAG3LlqB072391; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:21:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3Lkcd072366 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:21:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3LrNH005599 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:21:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I79001XH5CG4M@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:21:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.150.177.16] ([206.16.228.19]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0I79008RJ5CFUT@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:21:52 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:21:59 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: PaceLinkDelicious, PaceLinkConstruct: @rel values In-reply-to: To: Antone Roundy Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 15, 2004, at 11:09 AM, Antone Roundy wrote: >>> The risk is the opposite of naming collision--multiple names for the >>> same thing. >> >> This is a problem for any format that's extensible in a decentralized >> manner. There's nothing we can do about it. >> > There is something we can do about it--we can build a few more values > into the initial registry which are likely to get created Agreed. Propose a few and see if you can get consensus. Write a Pace that assumes FieldingLinks. You might want to wait to see if FieldingLinks gets accepted. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 22:37:20 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA25069 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:37:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3TODw078666; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:29:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAG3TODo078665; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:29:24 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3TOqP078657 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:29:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3TUui011633 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:29:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I790019J5P54M@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:29:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.150.177.16] ([206.16.228.19]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0I79008RR5P5UT@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:29:29 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:29:36 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: rel registry (was: PaceLinkDelicious, PaceLinkConstruct: @rel values) In-reply-to: <41995987.3010600@franklinmint.fm> To: Robert Sayre Cc: Antone Roundy , atom-syntax@imc.org, Martin Duerst Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <42771422-372D-11D9-88C4-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <4198ED1A.5000901@franklinmint.fm> <6.0.0.20.2.20041116084255.03ba1910@localhost> <41995987.3010600@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 15, 2004, at 5:36 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: > Does the spec have to list the initial values of the registry, or can > we work that out separately? The current draft of PaceFieldingLinks specifies initial values. I see no problem in having the spec specify as many as the WG can come to consensus on. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 22:41:38 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA25342 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:41:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3Z9WG084204; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:35:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAG3Z9tT084203; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:35:09 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3Z869084181; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:35:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3ZEui013735; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:35:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I79001L25YQ43@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM>; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:35:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.150.177.16] ([206.16.228.19]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0I79008Q75YPUQ@mail.sun.net>; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:35:13 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:35:20 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: PaceLinkByLocation et al--what is a "link"? In-reply-to: To: Paul Hoffman / IMC Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Message-id: <8AD7C4A4-3780-11D9-BA61-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 15, 2004, at 3:44 PM, Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: > At 10:51 PM +0000 11/15/04, Graham wrote: >> Maybe there's another atompub group somewhere we can join that isn't >> so pigheaded about this. > > Maybe that group would also be amenable to name-calling; judging from > my personal mail about your recent postings, this one certainly isn't. What Paul said. For the record, I find Graham's behavior to be unacceptably rude. He's not a troll, because he also makes substantive technical comments. Unfortunately, the WG members who've added him to their junk filter aren't seeing them. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 22:51:12 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA25985 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:51:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3hMbQ092272; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:43:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAG3hMoI092271; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:43:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3hLmj092107 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:43:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <200411160343200110017r9ke>; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 03:43:20 +0000 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:43:19 -0700 Subject: Re: PaceLinkDelicious, PaceLinkConstruct: @rel values Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, November 15, 2004, at 08:21 PM, Tim Bray wrote: > On Nov 15, 2004, at 11:09 AM, Antone Roundy wrote: >>>> The risk is the opposite of naming collision--multiple names for >>>> the same thing. >>> >>> This is a problem for any format that's extensible in a >>> decentralized manner. There's nothing we can do about it. >>> >> There is something we can do about it--we can build a few more values >> into the initial registry which are likely to get created > > Agreed. Propose a few and see if you can get consensus. Write a Pace > that assumes FieldingLinks. You might want to wait to see if > FieldingLinks gets accepted. -Tim > Will do. At this point, I think we'll have more fruitful discussion if we first nail down the shape of the link element, and then work on the list of values. BTW, in case I hadn't said so, +1 on PaceFieldingLinks and in favor of closing any competing Paces assuming text gets added saying that URIs in @rel are to be compared character-by-character, case sensitively. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 23:04:48 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA27490 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 23:04:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3vrXY007217; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:57:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAG3vrj6007214; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:57:53 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3vroF006703 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:57:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004111603572401300csqvpe>; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 03:57:24 +0000 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:57:22 -0700 Subject: Replacement for PaceLinkPurpose (was Re: PaceLinkDelicious, PaceLinkConstruct: @rel values) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <4198ED1A.5000901@franklinmint.fm> Message-Id: <9EBC5CD0-3783-11D9-88C4-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, November 15, 2004, at 10:53 AM, Robert Sayre wrote: > Antone Roundy wrote: > > > unless Link Constructs are constrained to > > the point where an application can handle unknown Link Constructs in > > some default way without...how to say it...doing something stupid, it > > doesn't matter whether the application can recognize unknown Link > > Constructs or not. > > Here's a first try: > > 3.5 > A Link construct is an empty element that describes a connection from > an Atom document to another Web resource. When a link is activated, > User Agents are expected to visit the linked resource, rather than > apply metadata such as schema or styling information as is common in > HTML dialects. > Two possible changes--both minor nit-picks: 1) Change "Atom document" to "Atom feed or entry"? 2) Change "Web resource" to "internet resource"? It may be possible to make the language prettier in some way, but honestly, I think it's entirely sufficient as it stands. Do you want to make a Pace of it, or shall I? From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 15 23:07:20 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA27737 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 23:07:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3xckn009007; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:59:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAG3xckr009006; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:59:38 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr5.netsolmail.com (omr5.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.142]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG3xb4Y008992 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:59:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr5.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAG3xilF003210; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:59:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from boblaptop (68-174-167-137.nyc.rr.com [68.174.167.137]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BYS35637; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:59:43 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411160359.BYS35637@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Graham'" , "'Tim Bray'" Cc: "'Atom WG'" Subject: RE: PaceHeadInEntry Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:59:39 -0500 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Thread-Index: AcTLjiM5VcPa33V5RLWNFfV/F4GoJwAARXfw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <057225FD-377F-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > I think the Pace needs to be explicit that the entry inherits > from its own head rather than from the main head. There need > to be rules of how to interpret it. Would wording like the following be acceptable? "If an atom:entry contains an atom:head element then any elements or attributes of the atom:entry which are defined as being inherited from the atom:head of the parent feed MUST be inherited only from the atom:head element contained by the atom:entry." > Also, it should probably be the first child of atom:entry, Would this work for you? "An atom:head element, if present in an atom:entry, should be the first child of atom:entry." bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 00:07:31 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA03699 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:07:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG4uAqA054760; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:56:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAG4uAJ8054759; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:56:10 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mailgw.afc.gov.au (mail.afc.gov.au [203.202.130.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAG4u8J3054560 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:56:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [192.168.25.2] (HELO afc.gov.au) by mailgw.afc.gov.au (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.5) with ESMTP id 1557463 for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:56:01 +1100 Received: from [192.168.25.1] (HELO [192.168.45.41]) by afc.gov.au (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.5) with ESMTP id 1706788 for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:56:00 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:55:46 +1100 Subject: Re: Replacement for PaceLinkPurpose (was Re: PaceLinkDelicious, PaceLinkConstruct: @rel values) From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9EBC5CD0-3783-11D9-88C4-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 16/11/04 2:57 PM, "Antone Roundy" wrote: >> A Link construct is an empty element that describes a connection from >> an Atom document to another Web resource. When a link is activated, >> User Agents are expected to visit the linked resource, rather than >> apply metadata such as schema or styling information as is common in >> HTML dialects. >> > Two possible changes--both minor nit-picks: > > 1) Change "Atom document" to "Atom feed or entry"? eithr way, does this mean we can't use in or other elements? e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 05:43:09 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA13110 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 05:43:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGAT6Nm084544; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 02:29:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGAT6dq084543; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 02:29:06 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGAT5T4084534 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 02:29:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 52848 invoked by uid 17064); 16 Nov 2004 10:29:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.128.139]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 16 Nov 2004 10:29:05 -0000 In-Reply-To: <88A444DD3D9BAEF3A226665C@diva.verity.com> References: <77018B0D-3721-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <0E9F2C83-373F-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <17E36F4C-3742-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <88C62BDB-3744-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <88A444DD3D9BAEF3A226665C@diva.verity.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <5707C4BE-37BA-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Walter Underwood From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:29:04 +0100 To: "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 15 Nov 2004, at 23:11, Walter Underwood wrote: > --On Monday, November 15, 2004 09:25:47 PM +0100 Henry Story > wrote: >> >> PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 is an actual Pace with supporting arguments >> from >> Anotone Roundy [1], which on the face of it have a lot of weight. > > -1 > > All the arguments for are based on structural similarity. That is > enough > to suggest that they are related, but not enough to prove it. A > shopping > cart and a baby stroller are structurally similar, but that doesn't > automatically make them related. There are a couple of issues here. I have written these out in length and publish it here, not mostly as a reply to your comment above, but because once I found myself writing all of this out I realized it may provide a helpful context in which to understand what we are doing. It helps both show why what we are doing may appear to be obviously false, surprising even, yet how this may very well be in the nature of the operation. It also should help focus us a little on the context we are dealing with, and hopefully avoid false comparisons. 1. Identity assignments can be information rich. Notice first of all that to prove that two things are the same you need not show that their respective properties as they were known to be before the identity assignment was made, were the same. Very often an identity assignment is going to be informational rich. Take for example Clark Kent and Superman. Clark Kent is Superman, yet most of the characters in the cartoon don't know this. For them Clark Kent is a weak geekish journalist who has trouble with physical exercise, and Superman is a strong powerful superhero who can fly and whose only weakness is kryptonite. So we could make a list of properties that relate them such as Clark Kent Superman Journalist Superhero Physically weak super strong Shy bold ... ... And yet (Clark Kent == Superman). Those that discover this discover something very important. They discover for example that Clark Kent was only pretending to be physically weak, that he was only pretending to be shy, and so on for all the characteristics that may seem contradictory. Notice also that if you were to tell a character in the cartoon of the identity they would laugh a very hearty laugh, or take you for a fool. This is another way to say that Identity assignments are often not obvious, ie. are information rich. To convince someone of the identity of Superman and Clark Kent is not in any way an easy task. And neither do I think is it going to be easy to show that a head structure is indeed a Entry going to be easy. 2. How can one prove identity? In the Superman/Clark Kent story we are dealing with physical entities. The identity of physical entities is a combination of a category of the physical entity and the spatio temporal position they occupy. Both Clark Kent and Superman are Men: if you can show that they occupy the same position in space you have proven that they are the same. In the shopping cart vs baby stroller case we are both dealing with concepts of a functional nature for the purposes of everyday use. One can show that the classes are disjoint by looking at the purpose of both objects and finding instances of both that are different. In this case most instances of the concepts are indeed different, and it is only the rare case where one finds objects that fit both categories. In our case we are working on a specification of a file format, to help interoperation between blog producers and blog consumers. The classes we define have no external Platonic existence outside of the work we are doing. So we cannot compare our definition of an Entry with the real thing out there. There are many other ways of cutting up the conceptual space as witnessed by the NewsML and other syndication formats. Of course not everything goes. Atom is working in the spirit of the RSS formats, which is to "keep things simple". It is a format that has to interact with a protocol, which we also may wish to keep as simple as possible. This is nearly a founding principle I think behind the work that is being done on this group. So to find a huge amount of structural similarities between two constructs is a very weighty argument in favor of a spec simplification. Especially if it allows one to express the same things as were expressed before the simplification. So to conclude: - In the Clark Kent/Superman case identity is proven by spatio-temporal identity - in the conceptual space of the shopping cart distinction is proven by the largely distinct sets of objects that fall under each category - in the case of our spec there is a purely functional notion: what data structures do we need to create the easiest to understand spec for an equivalent functionality. Writing a spec in that regard is very much like programming, which is perhaps why this exercise I am putting forward here may seem very natural and straightforward to other programmers. In programming one is also constantly creating classes that don't necessarily have a relation to something in reality, where the primary assessment of the quality of the code is not how it corresponds with reality, but how well it functions, how easy it is to read, to extend, to understand and in general to work with. Since it is never possible to get this right the first time round, we spend a lot of time on Refactoring our code, as has recently been so well described by Martin Fowler. The aim of that process is to start off with some complex code and end up perhaps with something that is a lot easier to read or to work with, but with exactly (or very nearly) the same functionality. That the code is equivalently functional is in part verified by testing it against a bunch of unit tests. If we had unit tests for the Atom spec, it is my belief that the re-factoring I am proposing would hardly impact those tests. And that the small changes required are amply justified by the gains achieved. Ok, that should be enough with the theory. I'll look at the criticisms one by one now. Henry Story From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 07:07:35 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA21135 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:07:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGBwgeT080735; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 03:58:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGBwgwg080726; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 03:58:42 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGBwgiv080708 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 03:58:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 7522 invoked by uid 17064); 16 Nov 2004 11:58:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.128.139]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 16 Nov 2004 11:58:43 -0000 In-Reply-To: <200411160222.BYS19062@ms8.netsolmail.com> References: <200411160222.BYS19062@ms8.netsolmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: " " From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:58:43 +0100 To: "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 16 Nov 2004, at 03:22, Bob Wyman wrote: > Walter Underwood wrote: >> All the arguments for are based on structural similarity. That is >> enough to suggest that they are related, but not enough to prove >> it. A shopping cart and a baby stroller are structurally similar, >> but that doesn't automatically make them related. > Darn. Walter beat me to it... Yes, the key is that Roundy's > arguments address only the form of the two elements, not their > substance or > function. This is like saying that monkeys and men are the same > because they > both have two arms, two legs, etc. -- they even share common ancestry. > Admittedly, in some contexts, it is useful to see both as "primates," > however, in most other contexts, it is best to treat them as > dissimilar. Monkeys and men have a lot more dissimilarities than the structure that goes into the head of a document and the structure that is an Entry. At least on mine, Roundy's, Robert Sayre's and others analysis. Structural similarity is of course no final criterion of identity. For physical bodies it is spacio-temporal identity. For structures that appear in specifications of the type we are dealing with, it structural similarity is a lot more weighty, especially if one finds no lack of functionality by attempting the equivalence. > The mere fact that we've chosen to provide a "title" in both head > and entry does not mean they are the same nor does it mean that "title" > means the same in both contexts. In fact, it does not. The "title" of > a head > is not the head's title. Rather, it is the title of the feed that > contains > the head. The title of an entry, on the other hand, is that of the > entry > itself. One element contains data that describes itself -- the other > contains data that describes its parent and the parent of the entries > in the > same feed. These differences are significant. That is a good constructive point. :-) There are I think, two different solutions to this. 1. Feed is a pair feed(head,stream) a) The title of the Entry that goes into the head is the title of that Entry. b) The feed has a head relationship to one and only one Entry. This 'head' relationship is a special relationship, which makes an assertion about the Feed and the Entry. This can be paraphrased as saying that the Entry related to the Feed by the head relationship, that that Entry, call it headentry, that its copyright is the feed's copyright, that the headeantry's title is the feed's title, etc... 2. A Feed is a Entry The feed *is* the Entry that is its head. This is simplest to understand. The copyright of the head entry is the copyright of the feed, since that feed and the head Entry are the same object. A Feed in this conceptualization, simply is an Entry that points to other Entries. in programming terms class Feed extends Entry { List entries = new ArrayList(); Entry getHead() { return (Entry)this; } List getEntries() { return entries; } void addEntry(Entry e) { entries.add(e); } } In both situations you end up with the same result. note: There may be another solution I have not thought of. > I think one could argue that many of these apparent similarities are > mere artifacts of the forms we've chosen. For instance, while I think > it is > natural to think of the "title" of an entry, I would not have been > surprised > if the supposedly similar element in head had been called "name." It > seems > odd to me to speak of the "title" for a feed. While I won't write a > Pace to > propose this, I would more comfortable speaking of the "name" of a > feed and > the "title" of an entry. (It's just a personal aesthetic thing...) Yes, but I might still have seen through your tricks ;-) > Other differences are very clear to me -- even though element names > are similar. For instance, I see a great difference (under US law) > between > the "copyright" of the collection which is held in head and the > copyright > for a distinct entry. These two similarly named elements are just as > different from each other as they are similar. Ok, so perhaps you would really like the model in which a Feed is a subclass of Entry. The copyright of the Feed is the copyright of the head Entry (ie. itself cast as an Entry, though that cast is not really necessary, due to property inheritance). As new Entries are added to the Feed the collection of Entries is of course copyrighted under the copyright of the Feed. I think you would probably really like this model. It pushes the simplification even further. Atom would really deserve its name: the Entry is the Atom of the Blogging universe. "It's All about the Entries, Stupid!" > Just because head and entry share a large number of similarly named > elements does not mean they are the same. Similarity of form does not > imply > similarity of substance. > > bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 08:11:57 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA26654 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:11:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGCwHiI057992; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 04:58:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGCwHmW057990; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 04:58:17 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGCwG81057979 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 04:58:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so567718rns for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 04:58:18 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=RHH/odBKtnuPk5jpbFRAMR/FTUoEiQ5riqQRPCWWGig6XR3BfXcKQPWOmrFxo92orjxt8fyVpshnI8H+0Hz4wZAmWS8TdjDPxMT+Ex7RLbHjr88ctW3sF++lVVSf4RqJ4kFPOXPUh+93z590uHqSA6G0TTrLviEhk7EQW3vM9bw= Received: by 10.38.206.65 with SMTP id d65mr122412rng; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 04:58:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.40 with HTTP; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 04:58:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04111604585019a243@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:58:17 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #12 Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <41991B61.3020104@dehora.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <84DE3206-31D2-11D9-9850-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> <1f2ed5cd04110815585b921983@mail.gmail.com> <41901063.4020503@itst.net> <41901213.8070505@franklinmint.fm> <1f2ed5cd04110902114f9317a9@mail.gmail.com> <41909A0C.3020908@dehora.net> <1f2ed5cd04110902541b54139b@mail.gmail.com> <1f2ed5cd041115115621b132f8@mail.gmail.com> <41991B61.3020104@dehora.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iAGCwH81057984 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:10:57 +0000, Bill de hÓra wrote: > > Danny Ayers wrote: > > On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:54:28 +0100, Danny Ayers wrote: > > > >>On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 10:21:00 +0000, Bill de hÓra wrote: > > > > > >>>Send a link. I'll explain it. > > > > Wind whistles...tumbleweed drifts by... > > > Danny, > > My apologies. I'm shipping 2 systems. This explanation requires more > than a dashed off or reactive mail and won't get looked at until next > weekend. If that's too long for you, I concede. > > The above observation, I believe, could have been phrased: > > "Have you had a chance to do this yet?" > > and would perhaps have been more conducive. My apologies, you're right of course. It was just meant as a reminder, my impatience was because your "I'll explain it." seemed to have been left like a QED in the margin a la Fermat. But I hope the shipping goes well, and look forward to your response. Email is a poor medium for nuances, but you should know by now not to take anything I say too seriously... Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 08:45:13 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA28570 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:45:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGDbBln097169; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 05:37:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGDbB8r097161; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 05:37:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from imo-d20.mx.aol.com (imo-d20.mx.aol.com [205.188.139.136]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGDb9m7096960 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 05:37:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Svgdeveloper@aol.com) Received: from Svgdeveloper@aol.com by imo-d20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id 7.15a.43c0cb25 (3964) for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:37:02 -0500 (EST) From: Svgdeveloper@aol.com Message-ID: <15a.43c0cb25.2ecb5c7e@aol.com> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:37:02 EST Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #12 To: atom-syntax@imc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_15a.43c0cb25.2ecb5c7e_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 670 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --part1_15a.43c0cb25.2ecb5c7e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 11/16/2004 1:02:14 PM GMT Standard Time,=20 danny.ayers@gmail.com writes: > On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:10:57 +0000, Bill de h=D3ra wrote= : > > > >Danny Ayers wrote: > >>On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:54:28 +0100, Danny Ayers =20 > wrote: > >> > >>>On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 10:21:00 +0000, Bill de h=D3ra wr= ote: > >> > >> > >>>>Send a link. I'll explain it. > >> > >>Wind whistles...tumbleweed drifts by... > > > > > >Danny, > > > >My apologies. I'm shipping 2 systems. This explanation requires more > >than a dashed off or reactive mail and won't get looked at until next > >weekend. If that's too long for you, I concede. > > > >The above observation, I believe, could have been phrased: > > > >"Have you had a chance to do this yet?" > > > >and would perhaps have been more conducive. >=20 > My apologies, you're right of course.=20 > It was just meant as a reminder, my impatience was because your "I'll > explain it." seemed to have been left like a QED in the margin a la > Fermat. >=20 > But I hope the shipping goes well, and look forward to your response.=20 >=20 > Email is a poor medium for nuances, but you should know by now not to > take anything I say too seriously... >=20 Mm ... Wind whistles ... Tumbleweed drifts by. I seem to recall an=20 acquisitions editor on Beginning RSS & Atom Programming using a phrase like=20= that=20 recently. Speaking of which ... :) Andrew Watt --part1_15a.43c0cb25.2ecb5c7e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 11/16/2004 1:02:= 14 PM GMT Standard Time, danny.ayers@gmail.com writes:

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:10:57 +0= 000, Bill de h=D3ra <bill@dehora.net> wrote:
>
>Danny Ayers wrote:
>>On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:54:28 +0100, Danny Ayers <danny.ayers@gmail= .com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 10:21:00 +0000, Bill de h=D3ra <bill@deho= ra.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>Send a link. I'll explain it.
>>
>>Wind whistles...tumbleweed drifts by...
>
>
>Danny,
>
>My apologies. I'm shipping 2 systems. This explanation requires more
>than a dashed off or reactive mail and won't get looked at until next >weekend. If that's too long for you, I concede.
>
>The above observation, I believe, could have been phrased:
>
>"Have you had a chance to do this yet?"
>
>and would perhaps have been more conducive.

My apologies, you're right of course.
It was just meant as a reminder, my impatience was because your "I'll
explain it." seemed to have been left like a QED in the margin a la
Fermat.

But I hope the shipping goes well, and look forward to your response.

Email is a poor medium for nuances, but you should know by now not to
take anything I say too seriously...


Mm ... Wind whistles ... Tumbleweed drifts by. I seem to recall an acquisiti= ons editor on Beginning RSS & Atom Programming using a phrase like that=20= recently. <g, d & r />

Speaking of which ... :)

Andrew Watt --part1_15a.43c0cb25.2ecb5c7e_boundary-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 08:45:28 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA28597 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:45:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGDdR9T000121; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 05:39:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGDdRCT000116; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 05:39:27 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.193]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGDdRNu000108 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 05:39:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so569117rns for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 05:39:29 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=VLUtYU/dRpuOHcfwyS6IwjXa1YJLmzeoG8n/Np1L5l8vc+AAsHtJZE/8efsY3W/7uuFVHB4AUJ3PwtLXAHWRhKR2RgRsJhrgU1Kuf9LRqYD2CgQ6xRBY59hJikJui+FN68lWSLLG7CQI2DABr6/CO63gS5KbOOU0MotabllZ9I0= Received: by 10.38.26.40 with SMTP id 40mr1496349rnz; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 05:39:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.40 with HTTP; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 05:39:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd041116053978fafb2c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:39:28 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Quark, Strangeness and Charm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm posting this in lieu of a Pace - I'll put one together post-feedback (and once I've got my current batch of day-work out of the way ;-) The PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown thread has been looking at similarity between entities at the Entry level of granularity. This is definitely useful analysis, whether or not any of these Paces is accepted. But I think there's also a lot can gained by splitting the Atom. There is plenty of prior art for recognising constructs in XML syntax, in the context of syndication it's provided by RDF/XML in RSS 1.0. There may not be general support for Atom as RDF/XML, but something like its grammar of structure is possible. The same kind of structural interpretation is possible without any commitment to any aspect of RDF. Amongst other characteristics, RDF/XML identifies resources, properties and literals based on the structure of the syntax. Atom has a virtually identical set of sub-atomic particles - the constructs with URIs, properties with literal values, properties which have URIs as their value. If Atom syntax is consistent in the way it expresses these (which should be a desirable thing in itself), then the same interpretation can be applied to extensions. Things with the same Atomic Weight (or rather position in the structure) are treated in the same fashion. I'm don't think PaceConstructAttribute is the way to go, I think it needs to be more transparent. But I reckon the rationale is good: [[ If an Atom consumer knows that an extension element follows the rules defined for a Construct that it already knows about from the Atom core specification, it may be able to perform some appropriate processing on it without knowing everything about the element. ]] I think PacePropertyDesign is heading in the right direction, though needs some fleshing out. I would be tempted to remove the RDF references - I don't think they're needed (maybe keep as purely informative). Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 09:26:21 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA02176 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:26:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGEHuqK029864; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 06:17:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGEHusL029863; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 06:17:56 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr2.netsolmail.com (omr2.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.163]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGEHtAv029820 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 06:17:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr2.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGEHj27006415; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:17:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from boblaptop (68-174-167-137.nyc.rr.com [68.174.167.137]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BYT65185; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:17:45 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411161417.BYT65185@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Henry Story'" , "'Atom WG'" Subject: RE: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:17:38 -0500 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcTL06DTVaz1icuUTuSFhiwj23djYgADkCgg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henry Story wrote: > 2. A Feed is a Entry ... > I think you would probably really like this model... No. I don't like it at all. Please note that I've been arguing for PaceHeadInEntry. It should be obvious that I think that: "An Entry is a Feed." I do not think that "A Feed is an Entry". If PaceHeadInEntry is accepted, entry is most appropriately seen as a restricted subclass of Feed -- with the restriction being that an entry can contain no entries. An entry is simply a single entry feed and we do some markup minimization that allows us to remove the "entry" wrapper tag around the entry specific elements. Unfortunately, I think UML can't express this. Saying that "A Feed is an Entry" may result in simpler UML, shorter documents, etc. However, I think that such simplifications should not be pursued if the cost is a loss of accuracy in the model. Elegance at the cost of truth provides no gain. If PaceHeadInEntry is accepted, then conceptually, an Entry looks like this: .. elements of entry ... However, given that the inner instance of the entry tag provides no utility, we have chosen to save a few bytes and encode an entry as: .. elements of entry ... This model supports what I've often suggested when I say that I think that a feed is simply a sliding-window on a stream of events. An Entry is simply a feed with a window-size of 1. This is an important observation if you're in the composite or aggregate feed business -- like I am. What we require is an atomic unit that can be moved about without information loss. I also believe that the inheritance of and from is much more intuitive if you view an entry as a single entry feed. Entries are single entry feeds. Feeds are not entries -- they are merely streams or collections of entries. bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 09:39:50 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA03030 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:39:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGEWihW037360; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 06:32:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGEWiQK037358; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 06:32:44 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGEWiYA037347 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 06:32:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 37295 invoked by uid 17064); 16 Nov 2004 14:32:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.129.246]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 16 Nov 2004 14:32:46 -0000 In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd041116053978fafb2c@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f2ed5cd041116053978fafb2c@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <6237647A-37DC-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Danny Ayers From: Henry Story Subject: Re: Quark, Strangeness and Charm Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:32:46 +0100 To: "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, I too like PacePropertyDesign. My way of going in that direction with minimal impact on the current standard would be as follows: 1- Agree that Atom can extended in any way one wishes with simple name space extensibility (Tim Bray likes this [1]) 2- Have a name space that belongs to the W3C 3- Have the location of that http name space contain an OWL document that gives an OWL description of the Atom elements: head, link, etc 4- Have a very simple example that shows where one needs to place the rdf:parseType="Resource" attributes to turn the document into RDF -- if this is needed at all. I found the this remark by Roy T. Fielding very enlightening on the subject: "they [RDF, XLink] are simply a means of associating crosscutting behavior (similar to aspect-oriented programming) as an attempt to recover a centralized meaning from namespaces' decentralized collision avoidance strategy." [2] As a result of this way of doing things, one would not have to introduce heavy handed RDF syntax into Atom, nor mention it in any way, other than perhaps in passing, as an extension strategy, or as a way to relate atom to other standards in existence (crosscutting). All this requires is we verify one by one that all the Atom constructs could in fact be written down in a satisfactory way in OWL. This would probably in any case be a very healthy sanity check of the syntax before declaring it finished: if the syntax we define can easily and faithfully be mapped to an OWL semantics, then we will have an independent litmus test of the quality of the Atom groups' work. This would be similar to showing that two well established physics theories are in fact equivalent. Danny, should I write the above into a Pace? Is this what you were thinking of? Henry Story [1] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11466.html [2] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11385.html On 16 Nov 2004, at 14:39, Danny Ayers wrote: > > I'm posting this in lieu of a Pace - I'll put one together > post-feedback (and once I've got my current batch of day-work out of > the way ;-) > > The PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown thread has been looking at similarity > between entities at the Entry level of granularity. This is definitely > useful analysis, whether or not any of these Paces is accepted. But I > think there's also a lot can gained by splitting the Atom. > > There is plenty of prior art for recognising constructs in XML syntax, > in the context of syndication it's provided by RDF/XML in RSS 1.0. > There may not be general support for Atom as RDF/XML, but something > like its grammar of structure is possible. The same kind of structural > interpretation is possible without any commitment to any aspect of > RDF. > > Amongst other characteristics, RDF/XML identifies resources, > properties and literals based on the structure of the syntax. Atom has > a virtually identical set of sub-atomic particles - the constructs > with URIs, properties with literal values, properties which have URIs > as their value. If Atom syntax is consistent in the way it expresses > these (which should be a desirable thing in itself), then the same > interpretation can be applied to extensions. Things with the same > Atomic Weight (or rather position in the structure) are treated in the > same fashion. > > I'm don't think PaceConstructAttribute is the way to go, I think it > needs to be more transparent. But I reckon the rationale is good: > [[ > If an Atom consumer knows that an extension element follows the rules > defined for a Construct that it already knows about from the Atom core > specification, it may be able to perform some appropriate processing > on it without knowing everything about the element. > ]] > > I think PacePropertyDesign is heading in the right direction, though > needs some fleshing out. I would be tempted to remove the RDF > references - I don't think they're needed (maybe keep as purely > informative). > > Cheers, > Danny. > > -- > > http://dannyayers.com > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 09:50:11 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA03834 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:50:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGEhAfI042100; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 06:43:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGEhAZc042099; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 06:43:10 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.192]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGEhAjv042085 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 06:43:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so572307rns for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 06:43:09 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=dlKD3y4e3cQu5wVmlf/2Rj/tV14N69FKQY+mBQqINxjGWSVz2m4m8FEa7RdinLs+ZWYuiiZiUq5tqhqTm3J2R0sYHBq4OSkAnSKcjOfHXF0x0dVEzqzADa8x8edZ4tGCZ3Z5wHGZTKAbDKmDv67hBykfSH23+Uyu3+b/uC2j9KE= Received: by 10.38.26.40 with SMTP id 40mr1521080rnz; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 06:43:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.40 with HTTP; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 06:43:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0411160643711a68a6@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:43:09 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: "svgdeveloper@aol.com" Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #12 Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <15a.43c0cb25.2ecb5c7e@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <15a.43c0cb25.2ecb5c7e@aol.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Mm ... Wind whistles ... Tumbleweed drifts by. I seem to recall an > acquisitions editor on Beginning RSS & Atom Programming using a phrase like > that recently. Oouch! -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 11:03:48 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA13128 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:03:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGFmMuf068018; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:48:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGFmMZl068014; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:48:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.143.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGFmLmB067955 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:48:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E5AADB for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:48:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net (spike.verity.com [10.69.100.102]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id iAGFmHKB017509 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:48:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:48:21 -0800 From: Walter Underwood To: "'Atom WG'" Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 Message-ID: <53815C3C68E175340988EB62@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: References: <200411160222.BYS19062@ms8.netsolmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Mac OS X) X-Face: 7Vqnb4fOVKsO)3JuUXKxR\M]:e"u'eG`Zue*.((7i7%P%rvZgS[j~95@C-s3i (s!e;OX`'Pngn5lq*Td}#,"5!^jm(65.";[GPtD^c(/1TtMe&wYO;_}\!}fRkxs%q#Jk 5E^BlXwR+8}qOwy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On Tuesday, November 16, 2004 12:58 PM +0100 Henry Story wrote: > > Ok, so perhaps you would really like the model in which a Feed is a > subclass of Entry. That is the normal approach for compound documents. But I still don't see a convincing reason. And I do favor short specs. 1. People have been working on compound documents without much success for at least fifteen years. To me, that indicates that they are either very hard or not very useful. 2. I have not seen a use case where a feed would be treated as an entry. If it is common, not just possible, for a feed to be an entry, then we need this. Otherwise, we don't. Show me the real world use cases. 3. Identity is not sufficient for something to be the same class. It is common for the same chemical to have multiple uses, each with different trademarks, packaging, production, and sales figures. From a business perspective, those identical chemicals must be treated as separate things, e.g. a dessert topping and a floor wax. wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect, Verity From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 11:05:51 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA13272 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:05:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGFuwWE072642; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:56:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGFuwTB072641; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:56:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.198]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGFuuCU072572 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:56:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lavandowska@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so455438wri for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:56:50 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=L4xyJLXcXm89w0CN+5uhlfedkF1rU2jX96i7pi/ebd1EFU+pm3uGVIOyTsRImRq6IkK6qoXRtKXmViBQI7VesPsOxbDdhzuZkQdPH+Xb0FN7cOIVG/eWbirwzEHu5l6C3hKd32PZLckFUasnYBVTkPmLfDac/HimZUhX4Br91Ts= Received: by 10.54.43.44 with SMTP id q44mr350643wrq; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:56:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.45.64 with HTTP; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:56:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <96d7d77c0411160756501a9cea@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:56:50 -0600 From: Lance Lavandowska Reply-To: Lance Lavandowska To: Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceHeadInEntry In-Reply-To: <200411160359.BYS35637@ms8.netsolmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <057225FD-377F-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <200411160359.BYS35637@ms8.netsolmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:59:39 -0500, Bob Wyman wrote: > > Graham wrote: > > I think the Pace needs to be explicit that the entry inherits > > from its own head rather than from the main head. There need > > to be rules of how to interpret it. > Would wording like the following be acceptable? > > "If an atom:entry contains an atom:head element then any elements or > attributes of the atom:entry which are defined as being inherited from the > atom:head of the parent feed MUST be inherited only from the atom:head > element contained by the atom:entry." Huh? is my first reaction. Here is an off-the-cuff attempt at rewording it. Perhaps some jumble of the two will be more clear? "Elements or attributes of atom:entry which are defined as being inherited from atom:head MUST inherit from the atom:head of the atom:entry, if present. If atom:head is not present in atom:entry then inheritance descends from the atom:head of the parent feed." Lance Lavandowska From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 11:23:49 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA15093 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:23:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGGGZdv080931; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:16:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGGGZrw080930; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:16:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGGGZnv080850 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:16:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 23262 invoked by uid 17064); 16 Nov 2004 16:16:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.129.246]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 16 Nov 2004 16:16:26 -0000 In-Reply-To: <200411161417.BYT65185@ms8.netsolmail.com> References: <200411161417.BYT65185@ms8.netsolmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: " " From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 (is it compatible with PaceHeadInEntry?) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:16:27 +0100 To: "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 16 Nov 2004, at 15:17, Bob Wyman wrote: > Henry Story wrote: >> 2. A Feed is a Entry ... >> I think you would probably really like this model... > No. I don't like it at all. Mhhhh. I wonder... > Please note that I've been arguing for PaceHeadInEntry. It should be > obvious that I think that: "An Entry is a Feed." I do not think that > "A Feed > is an Entry". The model I proposed as a solution to your problem and what you are proposing is sooooo incredibly close then :-) I wonder if we are not talking at cross purposes... > If PaceHeadInEntry is accepted, entry is most appropriately seen as > a restricted subclass of Feed -- with the restriction being that an > entry > can contain no entries. "restricted subclass"? That just so much sounds like a superclass to me. Are you sure we are not agreeing here? :-) In the Feed is a Entry model too an Entry contains no Entries. No difference until here it seems. > An entry is simply a single entry feed So you are proposing: (a)- an Entry is a subclass of a Feed (b)- an Entry is a Feed that contains one and only one Entry. So we have a relation of inheritance and a relation of composition, like in the "Feed is a Entry" model. But the way you put it, it seems a little weird, because we have a superclass that refers to its subclass and all kinds of weird things are required. class Feed { List entries; void addEntry(Entry e) { if ((this instanceof Entry && entries.size() < 1 ) entries.add(e); else if (!this instanceOf Entry) entries.add(e); } } class Entry extends Feed { void addEntry(Entry e) { //empty method } } So where do the Entry stuff go, such as the title, etc...? In the Entry class or the Feed class? > and we do > some markup minimization that allows us to remove the "entry" wrapper > tag > around the entry specific elements. Unfortunately, I think UML can't > express > this. I think that when you come to the conclusion that you have an idea that a widely deployed modelling tool cannot express then you should be suspicious about your idea. Especially if you also want it to be easy to understand. Is there any other way you could model this? Say using logic or set theory? > Saying that "A Feed is an Entry" may result in simpler UML, shorter > documents, etc. However, I think that such simplifications should not > be > pursued if the cost is a loss of accuracy in the model. Elegance at > the cost > of truth provides no gain. As I said before, I don't think the vocabulary of accuracy or "truth" is a good one here. There is no Platonic reality to which we can go to see if our model is the "right" one. What you mean to say is "elegance at the cost of functionality provides no gain". And I think, as I will show below, that there is no loss of functionality. > If PaceHeadInEntry is accepted, then conceptually, an Entry looks > like this: > > > > .. elements of entry ... > > Don't you then have an infinite recursion? .... .... .. elements of entry ... > > However, given that the inner instance of the entry tag provides no > utility, we have chosen to save a few bytes and encode an entry as: > > > .. elements of entry ... > Ok. You want to associate an Entry with the origin feed from which it stems. One could easily add this in the following way the orgin entry the elements of the entry if origin is the wrong term, we can always change it. > > This model supports what I've often suggested when I say that I > think that a feed is simply a sliding-window on a stream of events. Yes. So does what I am proposing. > An Entry is simply a feed with a window-size of 1. Very similar to where I am at. > This is an important observation > if you're in the composite or aggregate feed business -- like I am. > What we > require is an atomic unit that can be moved about without information > loss. Seems quite feasible with the Feed is a Entry model. In any case it seems quite feasible with the refactoring that I have proposed. > > I also believe that the inheritance of and from is much more > intuitive if you view an entry as a single entry feed. I find it really difficult to get my head around what you are saying. So it does not seem at all intuitive to me. I wonder if I am alone in this position? > Entries are single entry feeds. That just sounds so recursive! > Feeds are not entries -- they are > merely streams or collections of entries. > > bob wyman > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 11:34:53 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA16981 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:34:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGGP1xa084292; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:25:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGGP1ue084289; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:25:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGGP1jA084270 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:25:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004111616245801400gd9mje>; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:24:58 +0000 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:24:57 -0700 Subject: Re: PaceHeadInEntry Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <96d7d77c0411160756501a9cea@mail.gmail.com> Message-Id: <0DF76FCF-37EC-11D9-AE2C-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, November 16, 2004, at 08:56 AM, Lance Lavandowska wrote: > On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:59:39 -0500, Bob Wyman wrote: >> Graham wrote: >>> I think the Pace needs to be explicit that the entry inherits >>> from its own head rather than from the main head. There need >>> to be rules of how to interpret it. >> Would wording like the following be acceptable? >> >> "If an atom:entry contains an atom:head element then any elements or >> attributes of the atom:entry which are defined as being inherited >> from the >> atom:head of the parent feed MUST be inherited only from the atom:head >> element contained by the atom:entry." > > Huh? is my first reaction. Here is an off-the-cuff attempt at > rewording it. Perhaps some jumble of the two will be more clear? > > "Elements or attributes of atom:entry which are defined as being > inherited from atom:head MUST inherit from the atom:head of the > atom:entry, if present. If atom:head is not present in atom:entry > then inheritance descends from the atom:head of the parent feed." > What about if we stated things more broadly, along the lines of: "An atom:entry element which contains an atom:head element MUST be processed as if its containing atom:feed element contained an atom:head element with the same contents." From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 11:38:06 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA17152 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:38:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGGT1OW085385; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:29:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGGT1ON085384; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:29:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr1.netsolmail.com (omr1.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.162]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGGT1Ka085357 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:29:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr1.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGGSxq1011178; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:28:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BYU08094 (AUTH bob@wyman.us); Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:28:58 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411161628.BYU08094@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Walter Underwood'" , "'Atom WG'" Subject: RE: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:28:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <53815C3C68E175340988EB62@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> Thread-Index: AcTL9x5dzq05Pz6VRPeJS1+9GQXzbQAAFnSQ Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter Underwood wrote: > 1. People have been working on compound documents without much > success for at least fifteen years. To me, that indicates that > they are either very hard or not very useful. It's been much longer than 15 years. I was deep in discussions of compound documents at Digital back in 1981 when we were just getting the Office Automation products started (mine was ALL-IN-1). That was almost 24 years ago... If I remember right, Digital publicly published "CDA" (The Compound Document Architecture) in '85 or '86 -- still more than 15 years ago. Also, there was much debate about compound documents in the X.400 email discussions in the 80's (it was such a natural thing to do with ASN.1. Digital's CDA was defined in ASN.1). The issues hadn't been resolved at all by the time I got to Microsoft in 1991 and found the same discussions raging there -- OLE (Object Linking and Embedding) was just getting going. We then went through it all again in the various HTML debates... etc. Some issues just don't go away. Compound documents are very useful and very hard. bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 11:40:43 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA17335 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:40:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGGVncc086833; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:31:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGGVnwt086832; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:31:49 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr1.netsolmail.com (omr1.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.162]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGGVnXE086825 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:31:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr1.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGGVmq5012761; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:31:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BYU09145 (AUTH bob@wyman.us); Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:31:47 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411161631.BYU09145@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Lance Lavandowska'" , "'Atom WG'" Subject: RE: PaceHeadInEntry Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:31:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <96d7d77c0411160756501a9cea@mail.gmail.com> Thread-Index: AcTL9yh/9pB/uzzKRS6eCM+TUukv6gAAlyng Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I prefer Lance Lavandowska 's wording to my own. So, take the proposal as: "Elements or attributes of atom:entry which are defined as being inherited from atom:head MUST inherit from the atom:head of the atom:entry, if present. If atom:head is not present in atom:entry then inheritance descends from the atom:head of the parent feed." If nobody complains soon, I'll update the Pace. bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 12:06:13 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA19748 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:06:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGGsZV2093737; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:54:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGGsZRs093736; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:54:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGGsZDD093730 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:54:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 54317 invoked by uid 17064); 16 Nov 2004 16:54:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.129.246]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 16 Nov 2004 16:54:38 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: References: <200411160222.BYS19062@ms8.netsolmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <338BC86A-37F0-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:54:38 +0100 To: "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Perhaps there is a third solution that won't get me into the lengthy debates on Feed is a Entry, which if it is going to be argued would be better argued separately. If possible I would like to keep the issues separated. This is to point out the following. Currently you have created a head data structure that has an title, an author etc. You have no problems accepting that the title in the head is a property of the Feed. So similarly you should have no problem accepting that the title in an Entry that is the head of a feed is the title of the feed. Henry On 16 Nov 2004, at 12:58, Henry Story wrote: > >> The mere fact that we've chosen to provide a "title" in both head >> and entry does not mean they are the same nor does it mean that >> "title" >> means the same in both contexts. In fact, it does not. The "title" of >> a head >> is not the head's title. Rather, it is the title of the feed that >> contains >> the head. The title of an entry, on the other hand, is that of the >> entry >> itself. One element contains data that describes itself -- the other >> contains data that describes its parent and the parent of the entries >> in the >> same feed. These differences are significant. > > That is a good constructive point. :-) > > There are I think, two different solutions to this. > > 1. Feed is a pair feed(head,stream) > > a) The title of the Entry that goes into the head is the title of > that Entry. > b) The feed has a head relationship to one and only one Entry. > This 'head' relationship is a special relationship, which makes an > assertion about the Feed and the Entry. This can be paraphrased as > saying that the Entry related to the Feed by the head relationship, > that that Entry, call it headentry, that its copyright is the feed's > copyright, that the headeantry's title is the feed's title, etc... > > 2. A Feed is a Entry > > The feed *is* the Entry that is its head. This is simplest to > understand. The > copyright of the head entry is the copyright of the feed, since that > feed and the head Entry are the same object. A Feed in this > conceptualization, simply is an Entry that points to other Entries. > > in programming terms > > class Feed extends Entry { > List entries = new ArrayList(); > > Entry getHead() { > return (Entry)this; > } > > List getEntries() { > return entries; > } > > void addEntry(Entry e) { > entries.add(e); > } > } > > In both situations you end up with the same result. > > note: There may be another solution I have not thought of. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 12:13:00 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA20551 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:12:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGH5HhC096222; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:05:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGH5HjQ096220; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:05:17 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGH5G5G096189 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:05:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 63307 invoked by uid 17064); 16 Nov 2004 17:05:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.129.246]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 16 Nov 2004 17:05:19 -0000 In-Reply-To: <200411021838.BXC63429@ms8.netsolmail.com> References: <200411021838.BXC63429@ms8.netsolmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: " " From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceHeadInEntry Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:05:20 +0100 To: "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2 Nov 2004, at 19:36, Bob Wyman wrote: > > Tim Bray wrote: >> Would it be an oversimplification to say that [PaceHeadInEntry] >> provides by value what atom:origin provides by reference? -Tim > It would be an incorrect simplification. An atom:origin is an > atom:id, thus, it is not a "ref" it is an "id" and can't be reliably > dereferenced[1]. You can't use atom:origin to discover the contents of > the > atom:head for the feed within which an atom:entry was published unless > you've either seen the feed before or are able to use some service that > would map from the id to a ref (URL) or would serve up just the feed > head > data. (I am unaware of any such service and while we might build such a > thing, I don't think the utility of Atom should depend on it.) Yes but what if we invented an atom:origin2 which allowed you to put the entire contents of the head of the feed into the origin2 slot. Then you would have what Tim Bray was mentioning an atom:origin that would allow you to provide your header by value. Which pretty much is what you are proposing it seems. > Also, atom:id is an *optional* element of the feed's atom:head. Also one could make it non optional. But that is not a problem because we are not speaking about atom:origin, but about atom:origin2 where you can pass your arguments by value. > Thus, an aggregator may not always be able to construct an > "atom:origin" > element for the feed without inventing a new atom:id (which would be a > bad > thing.) > PaceHeadInEntry is particularly important for aggregate/synthetic > feed providers since a high proportion of the entries presented to the > reader of an aggregate feed will come from feeds that the reader has > never > seen before. Even if a service existed to do id-to-ref or head > lookups, it > would still be undesirable to use atom:origin in this application since > clients would end up generating a very large number of lookup calls to > the > service. Again there you are not replying to Tim's point. You are saying so and so is the case with atom:origin as it is currently. Tim was asking if what you were proposing was not something like atom:origin2. If it is something like atom:origin2 then atom:origin2 would fulfill your needs just as well, no? > > bob wyman > > > [1] draft-ietf-atompub-format-03.txt at 3.6.1 > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 12:28:12 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA21987 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:28:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGHFpNL001363; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:15:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGHFp8L001362; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:15:51 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGHFo01001318 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:15:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iAGHEXn2006180; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:14:40 GMT In-Reply-To: <338BC86A-37F0-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> References: <200411160222.BYS19062@ms8.netsolmail.com> <338BC86A-37F0-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-10--88494828; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: Cc: "'Atom WG'" From: Graham Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:14:32 +0000 To: Henry Story X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-10--88494828 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 16 Nov 2004, at 4:54 pm, Henry Story wrote: > So similarly you should have no problem accepting that the title in an > Entry that is the head of a feed is the title of the feed. It's the "an Entry that is the head of a feed" that will never get acceptance. I don't understand your obsession with this. If you wanted to create an Atom Record structure, one that is a head and the rest are called entries, that might make sense and would equally achieve your goals, wouldn't it? 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Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:40:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGHUSGi005595; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:30:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGHUSGH005594; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:30:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGHUS0W005588 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:30:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 83733 invoked by uid 17064); 16 Nov 2004 17:30:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.129.246]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 16 Nov 2004 17:30:31 -0000 In-Reply-To: References: <200411160222.BYS19062@ms8.netsolmail.com> <338BC86A-37F0-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <36226ACB-37F5-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Graham From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:30:29 +0100 To: "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 16 Nov 2004, at 18:14, Graham wrote: > On 16 Nov 2004, at 4:54 pm, Henry Story wrote: > >> So similarly you should have no problem accepting that the title in >> an Entry that is the head of a feed is the title of the feed. > > It's the "an Entry that is the head of a feed" that will never get > acceptance. I don't understand your obsession with this. If you wanted > to create an Atom Record structure, one that is a head and the rest > are called entries, that might make sense and would equally achieve > your goals, wouldn't it? Perhaps we may well be agreeing. Always difficult to tell :-) I am saying there is an Entry record structure. A feed is a pair feed(Entry head, List entries) or Feed1 |------head-------> Feed1sHead ----a---->Entry |------entry------> Feed1Entry1 ---a---->Entry |------entry------> Feed1Entry2 ---a---->Entry |------entry------> Feed1Entry3 ---a---->Entry ie: we have one record structure of type Entry. A Feed has one such record structure in the head relation to it. And it has a list (or sequence, or whatever collection takes your fancy) which form the entries of the feed. Are we agreeing? Henry Story > Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 12:46:20 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA23646 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:46:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGHeE8G009392; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:40:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGHeEFR009391; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:40:14 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr3.netsolmail.com (omr3.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.164]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGHeEp1009346 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:40:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr3.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGHe6rf000295; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:40:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BYU36586 (AUTH bob@wyman.us); Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:40:04 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411161740.BYU36586@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Henry Story'" , "'Atom WG'" Cc: Subject: RE: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 (is it compatible with PaceHeadInEntry?) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:40:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcTL9+MPsAU8ICgzTb+ukVa0CDmc6QAA7u+g Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henry Story wrote: > What you mean to say is "elegance at the cost of functionality > provides no gain". No. I meant it when I said that "Elegance at the cost of truth provides no gain." The problem you see is that I am a Platonist when it comes to software design and always have been. "The Cave" is, I think, the essential metaphor for good software design and systems architecture. Old DEC folk will remember my constant ranting about "The Separation of Form and Function" which later lead to the three tier architecture that is so common today... I've often seen people make the mistake of choosing what is "functional" over what is "true." The result is almost always some "bad" and unanticipated side-effect that eventually bites you in a very unpleasant way. > I think that when you come to the conclusion that you have an idea > that a widely deployed modelling tool cannot express then you should > be suspicious about your idea. Sure, I'm suspicious. However, I'm also aware that even the authors of UML make it clear that while UML is very broadly useful, it is not the answer to all modeling problems. UML is a compromise between three or four different views of the modeling problem and there is much that it can't express. Normally, its expressive limitations aren't a problem -- but not always. I see an abstract entry as having two parts: 1) Context -- provided by and 2) Content -- provided by the non-head elements of atom:entry. I view "Feeds" as streams of entries and explain away the various syntactical oddities as markup-minimization and reuse of via inheritance. An entry is simply a feed which provides only one "content" element (which we call an "entry"). A compound feed is a stream of entries in which it is not always possible or not correct to attempt to "reuse" the context provided by a single element. That is why each non-original entry in a compound feed should provide its own . Thus, you can look at a compound feed as a "Feed of Feeds" where each contained feed only provides one "content". (But, remember that we've explicitly decided not to support "Feed of Feeds" in the concrete syntax even though it is clear that such a thing is reasonable in an abstract sense. In fact, any compound feed that contains two or more entries from the same source feed could be more efficiently modeled as a Feed of Feeds -- if we hadn't decided to prohibit that in order to make things simpler for implementers by preventing infinite nesting of feeds.) The above paragraph should give you some idea of why the modeling tools will be challenged here... While we can design clean, abstract and elegant models, what we've done throughout the Atom discussion is make various compromises (like minimization, inheritance, arbitrary nesting constraints, etc.) that address the needs of implementers -- not modelers. Remember, we're dealing with bits-on-the-wire here -- not API's or abstract models. There is a mapping that must be done between the bits-on-the-wire and the models. You can't expect the two to be identical. You can only ask that the mapping function be of finite complexity. bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 12:47:00 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA23737 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:46:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGHfs6K009976; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:41:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGHfsPu009975; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:41:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGHfsWu009967 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:41:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 93220 invoked by uid 17064); 16 Nov 2004 17:41:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.129.246]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 16 Nov 2004 17:41:57 -0000 In-Reply-To: <36226ACB-37F5-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> References: <200411160222.BYS19062@ms8.netsolmail.com> <338BC86A-37F0-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <36226ACB-37F5-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "'Atom WG'" From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:41:57 +0100 To: Graham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry I could also have given a java representation: class Entry { String title; Person author; List contributor; .... } class Feed { Entry head; List entries; //that's all folks, the rest is just methods... String getTitle() { return head.title; } Person getAuthor() { return head.author; } List getContributors() { return head.contributor; } List getEntries() { return entries; } ... } Henry Story On 16 Nov 2004, at 18:30, Henry Story wrote: > > On 16 Nov 2004, at 18:14, Graham wrote: > >> On 16 Nov 2004, at 4:54 pm, Henry Story wrote: >> >>> So similarly you should have no problem accepting that the title in >>> an Entry that is the head of a feed is the title of the feed. >> >> It's the "an Entry that is the head of a feed" that will never get >> acceptance. I don't understand your obsession with this. If you >> wanted to create an Atom Record structure, one that is a head and the >> rest are called entries, that might make sense and would equally >> achieve your goals, wouldn't it? > > > Perhaps we may well be agreeing. Always difficult to tell :-) > > I am saying there is an Entry record structure. A feed is a pair > > feed(Entry head, List entries) > > or > > Feed1 > |------head-------> Feed1sHead ----a---->Entry > |------entry------> Feed1Entry1 ---a---->Entry > |------entry------> Feed1Entry2 ---a---->Entry > |------entry------> Feed1Entry3 ---a---->Entry > > > ie: we have one record structure of type Entry. > A Feed has one such record structure in the head relation to it. > And it has a list (or sequence, or whatever collection takes your > fancy) which form > the entries of the feed. > > Are we agreeing? > > Henry Story > > >> Graham > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 12:54:41 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA24512 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:54:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGHhkIG010588; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:43:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGHhkcE010587; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:43:46 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGHhji9010546 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:43:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iAGHh1OV022130; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:43:01 GMT In-Reply-To: <36226ACB-37F5-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> References: <200411160222.BYS19062@ms8.netsolmail.com> <338BC86A-37F0-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <36226ACB-37F5-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-11--86786115; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: Cc: "'Atom WG'" From: Graham Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:43:01 +0000 To: Henry Story X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-11--86786115 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 16 Nov 2004, at 5:30 pm, Henry Story wrote: > ie: we have one record structure of type Entry. > A Feed has one such record structure in the head relation to it. > And it has a list (or sequence, or whatever collection takes your > fancy) which form > the entries of the feed. > > Are we agreeing? No. Using "Entry" as a broad term for a record is a nonsense. One atom "entry" corresponds directly to a blog entry, a head does not. Stop doing that. Even then, still no. An entry is an entry and a head is random collection of other metadata with no collective structure or meaning - ie a head on its own is basically meaningless, an entry isn't. 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Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:02:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGHu5mU014711; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:56:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGHu5XG014708; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:56:05 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGHu5ul014700 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:56:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 4118 invoked by uid 17064); 16 Nov 2004 17:56:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.129.246]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 16 Nov 2004 17:56:08 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: References: <200411160222.BYS19062@ms8.netsolmail.com> <338BC86A-37F0-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <36226ACB-37F5-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:56:09 +0100 To: Graham , "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok. So what is the difference between the head structure and the entry structure? Henry On 16 Nov 2004, at 18:43, Graham wrote: > On 16 Nov 2004, at 5:30 pm, Henry Story wrote: > >> ie: we have one record structure of type Entry. >> A Feed has one such record structure in the head relation to it. >> And it has a list (or sequence, or whatever collection takes your >> fancy) which form >> the entries of the feed. >> >> Are we agreeing? > > No. Using "Entry" as a broad term for a record is a nonsense. One atom > "entry" corresponds directly to a blog entry, a head does not. Stop > doing that. > > Even then, still no. An entry is an entry and a head is random > collection of other metadata with no collective structure or meaning - > ie a head on its own is basically meaningless, an entry isn't. > > Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 13:02:20 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA25096 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:02:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGHvSgf015189; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:57:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGHvSi6015188; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:57:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr5.netsolmail.com (omr5.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.142]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGHvRbJ015182 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:57:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr5.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGHvOlJ019720; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:57:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BYU43799 (AUTH bob@wyman.us); Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:57:22 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411161757.BYU43799@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Henry Story'" , "'Atom WG'" Subject: RE: PaceHeadInEntry Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:57:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcTL/oEFJoKs0oudS4qTcK3SJ65CIAABXC9g Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henry Story wrote: > you are not replying to Tim's point. You are saying so and so is > the case with atom:origin as it is currently. Tim was asking if > what you were proposing was not something like atom:origin2. I don't see that. "atom:origin2" is your invention, not Tim's. Tim referred to "what atom:origin provides by reference." I was pointing out that atom:origin provides nothing "by reference" in that it doesn't pass anything which can be de-referenced. Thus, you "Can't get there from here" using atom:origin as defined -- if where you're trying to get is the feed that was the "origin" for the entry. If atom:origin had been defined as an URL, I would have agreed that "PaceHeadInEntry provides by value what atom:origin provides by reference." But, atom:origin isn't a re-referenceable URL so the answer to Tim's question is "No. It ain't so!" bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 13:09:19 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA25595 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:09:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGHsleo014258; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:54:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGHslq1014257; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:54:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.143.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGHslTw014226 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:54:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A61FBDA for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:54:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.150.112] (diva.verity.com [192.168.150.112]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id iAGHsjKB017942 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:54:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:03:12 -0800 From: Walter Underwood To: "'Atom WG'" Subject: RE: PaceHeadInEntry Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200411161631.BYU09145@ms8.netsolmail.com> References: <200411161631.BYU09145@ms8.netsolmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd rather not see "inherit". Just say something like "values from the atom:head of the parent feed are used." wunder --On Tuesday, November 16, 2004 11:31:44 AM -0500 Bob Wyman wrote: > > I prefer Lance Lavandowska 's wording to my own. So, take the proposal as: > > "Elements or attributes of atom:entry which are defined as being > inherited from atom:head MUST inherit from the atom:head of the > atom:entry, if present. If atom:head is not present in atom:entry > then inheritance descends from the atom:head of the parent feed." > > If nobody complains soon, I'll update the Pace. > > bob wyman > -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect Verity Ultraseek From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 13:16:47 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA26343 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:16:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGI9jWa020284; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:09:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGI9jb2020283; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:09:45 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGI9iVL020230 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:09:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iAGI8gHj001636; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:08:47 GMT In-Reply-To: References: <200411160222.BYS19062@ms8.netsolmail.com> <338BC86A-37F0-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <36226ACB-37F5-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-12--85245063; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <8CD34038-37FA-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Cc: "'Atom WG'" From: Graham Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:08:42 +0000 To: Henry Story X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-12--85245063 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 16 Nov 2004, at 5:56 pm, Henry Story wrote: > Ok. So what is the difference between the head structure and the entry > structure? I know you are but what am I? Graham --Apple-Mail-12--85245063 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMTE2MTgwODQzWjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUIoTbvGeJrkJMOy9AFNJyNddp l6EweAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEAFWrsOIeRxzQIdC+7KvTJvAk1 Bu8YeI0qkXC3KlzuHr46eL4zbJSef+aCnHBwwnp8TYykynE74J+HnSsXPnP4ZGTBAiwGd5Il2YGE wfPwq86Zyo0MkRxoHNdydR4Paslt/NiVmXg6yK/rVeYoHcXKMJc1u+ed4BMHuIm3l4pdqXY3hGbF GW93dzsttLiQudHNJaXmPLrIwsbVKKa3I4SnUtM3qE67wfAfdTUcCBf9cvd7MZy2cfJvCov3kEt2 5fkKG8pDCzzvd15ilOdvwJsveMkgvkZQhTbxz5I9zVSs+WJ5DHoGELbtjkPlhzBWBtOwlu/Xzwsm ieyVgUvv0D/1IQAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-12--85245063-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 13:23:42 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA26830 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:23:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGIHaL0023607; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:17:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGIHaZn023606; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:17:36 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGIHaN4023600 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:17:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 22050 invoked by uid 17064); 16 Nov 2004 18:17:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.129.246]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 16 Nov 2004 18:17:40 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: <8CD34038-37FA-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> References: <200411160222.BYS19062@ms8.netsolmail.com> <338BC86A-37F0-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <36226ACB-37F5-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <8CD34038-37FA-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: Graham is an robot Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:17:41 +0100 To: "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok. Graham is some new type of eliza like robot, specially designed for IETF working groups it seems. Quite clever. Henry On 16 Nov 2004, at 19:08, Graham wrote: > On 16 Nov 2004, at 5:56 pm, Henry Story wrote: > >> Ok. So what is the difference between the head structure and the >> entry structure? > > I know you are but what am I? > > Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 13:36:47 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA27923 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:36:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGIUkFq029105; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:30:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGIUkJS029104; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:30:46 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGIUjZB029071 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:30:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iAGIUWnn008757; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:30:32 GMT In-Reply-To: References: <200411160222.BYS19062@ms8.netsolmail.com> <338BC86A-37F0-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <36226ACB-37F5-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <8CD34038-37FA-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-13--83934840; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <99C76C38-37FD-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Cc: "'Atom WG'" From: Graham Subject: Re: Graham is an robot Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:30:32 +0000 To: Henry Story X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-13--83934840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Do you need everything explained to you? Me: "A head structure is [this thing], while an entry structure is [this other thing], ergo they are different" You: "Ok. So what is the difference between the head structure and the entry structure?" cf. Kid 1: "You're smelly" Kid 2: "I know you are but what am I?" Graham --Apple-Mail-13--83934840 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMTE2MTgzMDMzWjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUIP1YP+3vpz7g0wlaIK8StHn2 3L8weAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEA2LGjEc9IeobRRLOo0DKCkGIZ 6xYyCOjCJAiPtzkKgqXJK+HZdkk+4Ypzg2BgZE/svV7dLHZEixWHYe8PIMGWZrH4GpeXd4zIniJ7 JS6pp0ios7guM4kBZn/BUKoHTSVHNFmqK8FnmEjIcrZD+p77oyiNnz+UuZw4Y78h43bkT0zbf0Hf JTynmL+BDVMjevjvBdnKkNvuYzFdOTtppv5AEBOuCH/gPFdM02Xj/hAS2JB+hoMONolEbzd7jH24 M0wwI43F6NrYP/V/NuItmakURAl6p9vntiXQXuEU7Xa//dr7/k8SE2dGHdiErwb1CO0FoZI2n2ip d7g6tNlki0MXpwAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-13--83934840-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 13:56:48 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA29434 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:56:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGIl2fx035992; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:47:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGIl2YQ035991; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:47:02 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr5.netsolmail.com (omr5.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.142]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGIl11M035975 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:47:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr5.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGIl2lL016295; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:47:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BYU62696 (AUTH bob@wyman.us); Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:47:01 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411161847.BYU62696@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Henry Story'" , "'Graham'" , "'Atom WG'" Subject: RE: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:46:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcTMCCcKnAghpWfFRfeMGD9QV7j9vgABC3eQ Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henry Story wrote: > So what is the difference between the head structure and the > entry structure? A head structure describes a feed. An entry structure does not. bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 13:58:58 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA29703 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:58:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGImZ6I036731; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:48:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGImZ4Q036730; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:48:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGImZQC036646 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:48:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <20041116184830011000udspe>; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:48:30 +0000 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:48:24 -0700 Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 (is it compatible with PaceHeadInEntry?) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <200411161740.BYU36586@ms8.netsolmail.com> Message-Id: <188E86A4-3800-11D9-AE2C-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, November 16, 2004, at 10:40 AM, Bob Wyman wrote: > I view "Feeds" as streams of entries and explain away the various > syntactical oddities as markup-minimization and reuse of via > inheritance. An entry is simply a feed which provides only one > "content" > element (which we call an "entry"). A compound feed is a stream of > entries > in which it is not always possible or not correct to attempt to > "reuse" the > context provided by a single element. I just spent a while writing an meandering exploration of this issue, which I won't bore you with, but in the end, I came to the conclusion that a feed is not an entry and an entry is not a feed. A feed is a context in which content is published. Sometimes it is the original context of the content, and sometimes it is a context in which content originally from another context is redistributed. atom:head is a container for metadata describing the context. atom:entry is a container for both the content and metadata describing the content. I think the question is, are context and content different forms of the same thing, and I think the answer is no. Although there are cases, like comment feeds, where the context is an entry, that's more of a coincidence than a description of the nature of a feed. So assuming that we agree that content and context aren't different forms of the same thing, then what about the metadata describing content and the metadata describing context? In other words, if Atom looked like this: Here's the content ... then are and the same thing? (Till now, we've been asking whether either or and are the same thing, which I think they're not). I, for one, don't think so, despite structural similarities. The final question is whether, due to the structural similarities, the written specification would benefit from consolidation of and . Pro: * The spec would be shorter * We wouldn't have to duplicate various text * Any others? Con: * Where their structures diverge, it could create confusion over which elements are legal within context-metadata (atom:head) and content-metadata (atom:entry...we don't actually have a container within atom:entry, which is probably for the best). Yes, I know, the spec will make that clear, but it won't be clear by looking at the index, and a less than thorough reading of the spec text itself could miss the details. * Any others? Personally, I don't think the pros are that important (nice, but not important), but I do think the con is. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 14:01:57 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA29978 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:01:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGIrDte039464; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:53:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGIrDAM039463; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:53:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGIrDAT039452 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:53:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 57386 invoked by uid 17064); 16 Nov 2004 18:53:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.129.246]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 16 Nov 2004 18:53:17 -0000 In-Reply-To: <99C76C38-37FD-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> References: <200411160222.BYS19062@ms8.netsolmail.com> <338BC86A-37F0-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <36226ACB-37F5-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <8CD34038-37FA-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <99C76C38-37FD-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Graham From: Henry Story Subject: Re: Graham is an robot Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:53:17 +0100 To: "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am telling me that Clark Kent and Superman are the same, showing you why, explaining how I came to the conlusion, and you just respond -"no it ain't" - Clark Kent is one thing and Superman is another so they can't be the same - or some irrelevance Henry On 16 Nov 2004, at 19:30, Graham wrote: > Do you need everything explained to you? > > Me: "A head structure is [this thing], while an entry structure is > [this other thing], ergo they are different" > You: "Ok. So what is the difference between the head structure and the > entry structure?" > > cf. > Kid 1: "You're smelly" > Kid 2: "I know you are but what am I?" > > Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 14:06:27 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA00351 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:06:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGIwA3n041431; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:58:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGIwARU041430; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:58:10 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGIw9fP041420 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:58:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 62126 invoked by uid 17064); 16 Nov 2004 18:58:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.129.246]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 16 Nov 2004 18:58:13 -0000 In-Reply-To: <200411161757.BYU43799@ms8.netsolmail.com> References: <200411161757.BYU43799@ms8.netsolmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <775EC046-3801-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: " " From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceHeadInEntry Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:58:13 +0100 To: "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > Would it be an oversimplification to say that this provides by value > what atom:origin provides by reference? -Tim On 16 Nov 2004, at 18:57, Bob Wyman wrote: > Henry Story wrote: >> you are not replying to Tim's point. You are saying so and so is >> the case with atom:origin as it is currently. Tim was asking if >> what you were proposing was not something like atom:origin2. > I don't see that. "atom:origin2" is your invention, not Tim's. Tim > referred to "what atom:origin provides by reference." I was pointing > out > that atom:origin provides nothing "by reference" in that it doesn't > pass > anything which can be de-referenced. You are being very finicky here, and mistakenly so too. Atom origin points to a *URI*. That it can not necessarily be dereferenced mechanically is not a criterion for saying that it does not refer to the head by reference. > Thus, you "Can't get there from here" > using atom:origin as defined -- if where you're trying to get is the > feed > that was the "origin" for the entry. > If atom:origin had been defined as an URL, I would have agreed that > "PaceHeadInEntry provides by value what atom:origin provides by > reference." > But, atom:origin isn't a re-referenceable URL so the answer to Tim's > question is "No. It ain't so!" Ok. So if I tell you to read the book with ISBN URI say urn:ISBN:0-198-24686-2 which is a really good book by Gareth Evans called "The Varieties of Reference" you are going to tell me that I did not pass you the book by reference? I don't see how you can argue that position, frankly. > > bob wyman > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 14:07:46 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA00481 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:07:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGJ21Ch043263; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:02:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGJ21HJ043262; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:02:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGJ20dU043198 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:02:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iAGJ180Z019586; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:01:09 GMT In-Reply-To: References: <200411160222.BYS19062@ms8.netsolmail.com> <338BC86A-37F0-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <36226ACB-37F5-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <8CD34038-37FA-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <99C76C38-37FD-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-14--82098066; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: Cc: "'Atom WG'" From: Graham Subject: Re: Graham is an robot Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:01:09 +0000 To: Henry Story X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-14--82098066 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Your best argument amounts to "Yes they are", so lets call it quits, OK? Graham --Apple-Mail-14--82098066 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMTE2MTkwMTA5WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUYPViQmzlY+O4mGC+atkPpdoO bPoweAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEAUaTJSmJxH03/Xxgt5PJNVQvL 3nEUTCzBaWKtsCWcLmuuXpb8cQHdmKWJdgxzOFsTyCPFXutWFxdayAz8MyXRCS+PzTFkdrEQ4LKQ AmQ4iamEpTobJZ2TiRDP8hNFV3hWuTfOCAM9xe1f6HmbgKaK8VIOxl8lpQoq772jK4XOvNs/aIbD CvmCs9ADsejjqriyMXX8Btjc5qga/hUVwNm1EDHYxFah3OfQVQ8cveNoJGszvLCRXV4vdGXJMnxX GHSKZ00Ot26aWxbxCqKvpchLuc8q8nsz4hgtCW15pWOzFcc6jZ2pBRkX6TgzSpzcO1CkyoObbRl6 aaWdzgtC8dfhWgAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-14--82098066-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 14:19:01 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA01523 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:19:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGJBc3t047654; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:11:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGJBcVL047653; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:11:38 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGJBbp2047623 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:11:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <200411161911350110012kv2e>; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:11:35 +0000 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:11:34 -0700 Subject: Re: PaceHeadInEntry Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <775EC046-3801-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Message-Id: <54B25302-3803-11D9-AE2C-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, November 16, 2004, at 11:58 AM, Henry Story wrote: > Ok. So if I tell you to read the book with ISBN URI say > urn:ISBN:0-198-24686-2 > which is a really good book by Gareth Evans called "The Varieties of > Reference" > you are going to tell me that I did not pass you the book by reference? > If you don't tell me where I can find a copy of the book, and I can't find it myself, then knowing it's ISBN number doesn't help me get information out of the book. And unless an atom:feed's ID changes whenever the contents of its atom:head changes (as I believe a books ISBN would change if a new edition were released, right?), then the ID, or even the URL of the feed, would not provide a reliable pointer to the context of the entry. (To which you might well reply that the entry might still appear in the feed after atom:head changed, so it's context SHOULD change, to which I might well reply that the entry MIGHT get deleted in connection with the change to atom:head, just like some text might get deleted from a new edition of a book...so who knows). From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 14:36:58 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA03419 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:36:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGJPxHG053652; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:25:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGJPxtb053651; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:25:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGJPw4l053578 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:25:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <200411161925570120093fk4e>; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:25:57 +0000 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:25:54 -0700 Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <55BB994E-3805-11D9-AE2C-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, November 16, 2004, at 10:56 AM, Henry Story wrote: > Ok. So what is the difference between the head structure and the entry > structure? On Monday, November 15, 2004, at 08:55 AM, Antone Roundy wrote: > introspection Yes No > post Yes No[1] > edit No[2] Yes > tagline Yes[3] No > id Yes Required > generator Yes No > info Yes[4] No > published No[5] Yes > summary No[3] Sometimes Required > content No Yes > origin No Yes From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 14:36:59 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA03434 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:36:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGJTT32055839; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:29:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGJTTHb055838; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:29:29 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGJTSmQ055817 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:29:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 85692 invoked by uid 17064); 16 Nov 2004 19:29:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.129.246]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 16 Nov 2004 19:29:32 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: References: <200411160222.BYS19062@ms8.netsolmail.com> <338BC86A-37F0-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <36226ACB-37F5-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <8CD34038-37FA-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <99C76C38-37FD-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: Graham is an robot Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:29:33 +0100 To: Graham , "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 16 Nov 2004, at 20:01, Graham wrote: > Your best argument amounts to "Yes they are", so lets call it quits, > OK? Not at all. My best arguments have best been expressed by Antone Roundy in a previous mail [1]. I came to the same conclusion by trying to build OWL models of Atom [2], which I am currently implementing in an open source blog editor, named BlogEd [3], using the Sesame RDF database. I have so far had no trouble at all using that model. Henry Story [1] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11577.html and my reply to his questions at http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11604.html [2] http://bblfish.net/work/atom-owl/ [3] see https://bloged.dev.java.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 14:41:02 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA04022 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:41:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGJWxnT056905; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:32:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGJWxkc056904; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:32:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.pubsub.com (mail.pubsub.com [209.11.36.150]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGJWxLq056879 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:32:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bobwyman@pubsub.com) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) by mail.pubsub.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 082687240D0; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:32:58 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Walter Underwood'" , "'Atom WG'" Subject: No to all PaceCategory* proposals... Support SubjectIndicators instead. Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:32:53 -0500 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <18B0CF7DD4BD0287DCFFCE57@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> Thread-Index: AcTHPYfjyIi2UNadTXO3O1CrDFKPsgEz+Ybg Message-Id: <20041116193258.082687240D0@mail.pubsub.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter Underwood writes: > In library jargon, "classification" gives a unique hierarchial > location for each document, because it is used for shelf position, > while "subject headings" allow discovery under multiple categories. > A subject heading might have multiple parents, while classification > cannot. In this distinction between "classification" and "subject" lies the reason why all attempts at classification or providing "category" support in open communication systems have failed over the years. People keep trying to make "categories" work when we've proved over and over again that they can't work in anything but closed or homogenous groups. What we should do is give up on categories and find a way to support subjects instead. (in topic map terms: Stop focusing on Topics. Focus instead on Subject Indicators.) See: B.4 in http://topicmaps.org/xtm/index.html#conceptualmodel Categories require agreement that cannot be achieved: There are as many systems of categorization as there are users of information. In fact, single users often utilize multiple context-dependent systems of categorization. The best that any classification can do is describe a document or object within the context of one of those systems. The problem is, of course, that unless we all agree to a common system, the classification will be meaningless -- and can be harmful. It is a commonplace observation in IR and Library Science that the proper classification of an item can only be known after it is retrieved and used. You simply can't "pre-classify" an item in advance. On the other hand, you *can* identify the subject of the item. Categories are "undemocratic" and repressive when used in open communication systems: For categories to be useful, all viewers of the categories must either agree on the system of classification or build mappings from a common system of classification to their preferred systems. However, classification systems are inevitably influenced by subjective decisions that influence the thinking of those who use the systems. For instance, at an extreme..., in one classification system, an argument in favor of "legal abortion" would be classified as "pro-choice" while in another it would be "anti-life." The difference is not mere wording -- it implies a framing of the issue. To force that framing on an open system effectively closes that system. On the other hand, there are many fewer disagreements about what constitutes an item that might be constituted. i.e. we can agree that the subject "legalized abortion" exists even though we might disagree on how it is classified. Categories break I18N: Translating a classification system from one language to another is not simply a matter of translating words. Different languages have varying ability to communicate concepts and result in their users structuring classification systems and even arguments differently depending on which language they are using. Any attempt to get a consistent cross-language classification system will result in users of one or another language finding that the very manner in which they think about issues is devalued. There is some, but very little, disagreement between users of variant languages on what "subjects" are. Subjects are much easier to translate then classifications. (For instance, it is often said that "Zeitgeist" really has no English equivalent but those of us who speak English typically just add Zeitgeist to our voculary. Similarly, the English term "weekend," which refers to an interval of days rather than an instant, doesn't appear in other languages. Non-english speakers usually incorporate the English if they want the concept -- think "Le weekend.") Personally, I think we should support a "subjectIndicator" which would be a URI. This should be the focus of the discussion that appears to surround "categories." The mapping of subjectIndicators to classifications/categories should be a function provided by the aggregator. Each user should be free to use whatever mapping they want. For instance, various organizations (DMOZ, your church, your professional society,...) might use Topic Maps to define these mappings in an interoperable way. If folk insist on knowing an author's view of classification, we can add the various attributes proposed in the "PaceCategory*" stuff as optional elements to the "subject" element. These should, however, be seen as simply providing hints, not as making definitive statements about classification. Trying to solve the classification/category problem is futile. We should be focusing on subjectIndicators. Given subjectIndicators, we'd be able to have democratic, I18N compliant, personalized and relevant support for classification of entries. bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 14:54:14 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA05324 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:54:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGJjN17064936; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:45:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGJjNv4064934; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:45:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGJjNYw064924 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:45:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 98127 invoked by uid 17064); 16 Nov 2004 19:45:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.129.246]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 16 Nov 2004 19:45:26 -0000 In-Reply-To: <55BB994E-3805-11D9-AE2C-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> References: <55BB994E-3805-11D9-AE2C-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <109F71C3-3808-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Antone Roundy From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:45:27 +0100 To: "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That [1] is indeed the correct way to respond, Antone. Thanks. Clearly there are differences, otherwise everybody would long ago have realized that they are the same thing. This is again the Clark Kent vs Superman story. But as Antone specifies in that mail, the differences are not insurmountable. I have tried to answer some of his most difficult questions in an e-mail [2]. I am following the context debate to see if that helps illuminate a deep difference that I had not yet perceived. Henry [1] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11577.html [2] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11604.html On 16 Nov 2004, at 20:25, Antone Roundy wrote: > > On Tuesday, November 16, 2004, at 10:56 AM, Henry Story wrote: >> Ok. So what is the difference between the head structure and the >> entry structure? > > On Monday, November 15, 2004, at 08:55 AM, Antone Roundy wrote: >> introspection Yes No >> post Yes No[1] >> edit No[2] Yes >> tagline Yes[3] No >> id Yes Required >> generator Yes No >> info Yes[4] No >> published No[5] Yes >> summary No[3] Sometimes Required >> content No Yes >> origin No Yes > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 15:26:12 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA09129 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:26:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGKGqZB086827; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:16:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGKGqRc086826; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:16:52 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGKGqdC086820 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:16:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 21794 invoked by uid 17064); 16 Nov 2004 20:16:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.129.246]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 16 Nov 2004 20:16:55 -0000 In-Reply-To: <54B25302-3803-11D9-AE2C-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> References: <54B25302-3803-11D9-AE2C-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <76B59862-380C-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Antone Roundy From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceHeadInEntry Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:16:56 +0100 To: "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 16 Nov 2004, at 20:11, Antone Roundy wrote: > On Tuesday, November 16, 2004, at 11:58 AM, Henry Story wrote: >> Ok. So if I tell you to read the book with ISBN URI say >> urn:ISBN:0-198-24686-2 >> which is a really good book by Gareth Evans called "The Varieties of >> Reference" >> you are going to tell me that I did not pass you the book by >> reference? >> > If you don't tell me where I can find a copy of the book, and I can't > find it myself, then knowing it's ISBN number doesn't help me get > information out of the book. Ok. And if I pass you the URL of a book, and by the time you decide to act on it, the page is down, or the server is gone, then I also did not pass you the book by reference? > And unless an atom:feed's ID changes whenever the contents of its > atom:head changes (as I believe a books ISBN would change if a new > edition were released, right?), Ah ok. Just add a version id to every Entry and every feed. Entry1 ---versionId--->tag://bblfish.net/entry1#version1 > then the ID, or even the URL of the feed, would not provide a reliable > pointer to the context of the entry. Ok! I see what you mean by the context of an Entry! Thanks! You mean the Feed version in which it appeared. Or rather the version of the Entry that is the head of the feed (in PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 language) > (To which you might well reply that the entry might still appear in > the feed after atom:head changed, so it's context SHOULD change, to > which I might well reply that the entry MIGHT get deleted in > connection with the change to atom:head, just like some text might get > deleted from a new edition of a book...so who knows). Yes, but all that said and done, you are doing what origin would do if it pointed to the feed version, but you are passing the contents of the origin head by value (ie, you are just copying the contents of the head into the .. tag) Tim Bray wrote: > Would it be an oversimplification to say that this provides by value > what atom:origin provides by reference? -Tim Ok. So the oversimplification is only that atom:origin does not use a version construct. If it did, there would be no oversimplification in saying what Tim Bray said. Ie. you could fill the contents of with whatever you found in the head, when you fetched the feed. There would be no more problem popping an Entry content in there as there would be popping the contents of some HEAD structure. ------------------------------ Conclusion-------------------------------------------- So my PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 does not in any way hinder Bob in his work aggregating disparate feeds. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------ Henry Story > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 16:11:31 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA14213 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:11:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGL2BKR013729; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:02:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGL2B1H013728; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:02:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGL2Aab013688 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:02:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <20041116210209015008d9ure>; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:02:09 +0000 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:02:07 -0700 Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <8AE1E186-374B-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Okay, time to respond to this message: On Monday, November 15, 2004, at 02:15 PM, Henry Story wrote: > On 15 Nov 2004, at 16:55, Antone Roundy wrote: >> Other differences: >> * introspection - I'm not up on what the introspection file is all >> about enough to comment on this one > I don't understand introspection that well either. But I suspect there > would be no harm with Entries having introspection files too. My vague impression is that an entry has no need for introspection. Comments anyone? >> * generator - I don't see this making sense in entry > Well, why not? This could make a lot of sense for aggregator feeds, > it seems to me. The aggregator is responsible to ensure that it's output is well-formed and valid, regardless of what it gets from its source feeds. I'd say that makes it the generator. (That might be an argument for removing atom:generator from atom:head when aggregating if PaceHeadInEntry is accepted). Conceptually though, you're right, SOMETHING is generating the entry. >> * content - I don't see this making sense in head > Why not: Add a bit of nice content to the head, for richer news > readers may be quite nice. It works out quite nicely for James > Gosling's blog [1] Okay, I'll buy the argument that sometimes the context can contain content. A comments feed is probably the best example. But the nature of that content feels different--or at least like it would often be. The fact that it's expendable at the feed level but central to an entry is part of that. In some cases, feed/head/content would be more like metadata than content. >> * origin - I don't see this making sense in head > Good one. I don't know about this. > > Perhaps this would make sense in the case of a feed inside a feed: > namely responses to someone's entry. If you think of the responses as > constituting a feed with the original post as the "head" then this > feed would in fact have an origin feed. If PaceHeadInEntry is adopted, I expect we'll drop atom:origin, so this won't be an issue. >> * id: required in entry, not in head - as it should be > Mhhh. I had not realized that the id was mandatory in atom entries. > > Of course if you think about using the Atom API for setting your feed > head entry, then it would not be silly for your entry to have an id. I'm not subscribed to the protocol list, and haven't kept an eye on the API, so perhaps someone else could speak to this better than me. Can the API be used to edit atom:head? If so, how does one identify which feed's head is being manipulated? I'm sure you COULD have a different URI for each feed, but I would also expect that the API would support manipulating multiple feeds via the same URI. So it's easy to imagine both cases where you would and wouldn't need a feed ID. Should a feed ID be required? >> * if tagline becomes summary, the fact that it's sometimes required >> in entry, but never in head - as it should be > Yes. But why do you really want to make it required for a feed? I don't, which is what I meant by "as it should be". It looks to me like MOST of the structural differences between atom:head and atom:entry can be resolved, but I still question whether there's enough value in merging their descriptions in the spec to justify the work for the editors, the messiness of having to explain of the differences, and the risk of it causing misunderstandings. Ultimately though, IF we were to alter the structure of head and entry to make them VERY similar, I wouldn't put up a stink about it either way. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 16:11:33 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA14230 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:11:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGL1NE9013340; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:01:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGL1NTX013339; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:01:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.196]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGL1JWV013261 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:01:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so597124rns for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:01:21 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=gsx7g6U5q5d15Z3sarh7+vG/lCeQRPQWiT41VCdZwVsQQZvPo9L2FUVcyYOSTBzIEMW71oqloLI751cNvfUmX2lFS2V9NRpndK5ODaQgjHe+JBoBJvcxee4QLDT+Qu9ayr6vUA/RE72riOST9OYUWML8D7IUsyZLRLBiZlKcQj0= Received: by 10.38.179.79 with SMTP id b79mr61379rnf; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:01:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.40 with HTTP; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:01:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0411161301143b43d5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:01:21 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: bobwyman@pubsub.com Subject: Re: No to all PaceCategory* proposals... Support SubjectIndicators instead. Cc: Walter Underwood , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <20041116193258.082687240D0@mail.pubsub.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <18B0CF7DD4BD0287DCFFCE57@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> <20041116193258.082687240D0@mail.pubsub.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:32:53 -0500, Bob Wyman wrote: Bob, quick question: Take PaceCategoryRevised. Replace the word "category" with "subject"/"subjectIndicator" throughout. What doesn't work? -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 16:16:59 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA15121 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:16:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGLBxUx020827; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:11:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGLBxni020826; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:11:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr3.netsolmail.com (omr3.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.164]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGLBxIt020792 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:11:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr3.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGLBxrb018492; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:11:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BYV16854 (AUTH bob@wyman.us); Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:11:58 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411162111.BYV16854@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Henry Story'" , "'Atom WG'" Cc: "'Antone Roundy'" Subject: RE: PaceHeadInEntry Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:11:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <76B59862-380C-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Thread-Index: AcTMHDmO1WJkKAZ7QgGRX0r15XbTdQAA1hPg Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henry Story wrote: >Tim Bray wrote: >> Would it be an oversimplification to say that this provides by >> value what atom:origin provides by reference? -Tim >Ok. So the oversimplification is only that atom:origin does not use a > version construct. What you are saying is that Tim would not have been oversimplifying if only he had said something that he did not say. As much as you may wish to avoid the point, atom:origin does *not* pass data by reference. The atom:id is explicitly defined in the Atom spec as being something that can not be dereferenced -- even though it is noted that it sometimes might be. This is not like a "broken URL." URLs are intended to be dereferenceable and we say they are "broken" if they aren't derefenceable. However, an atom:id is not "broken" if it can't be dereferenced since there is neither a guarantee nor an expectation that you should be able to dereference an atom:id. What we may be distinguishing here is a third, and not terribly useful way of passing data... Consider that we have: 1. Pass by value (real bits) 2. Pass by reference (via an URL) 3. Pass by ID (via a URI that can't be dereferenced.) That third form, "pass by id" is simply not very useful in most situations even though it does have utility in some situations. Nonetheless, it ain't "pass by reference." bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 16:47:36 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA20938 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:47:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGLcp7o036336; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:38:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGLcpbf036335; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:38:51 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr5.netsolmail.com (omr5.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.142]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGLcpOm036329 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:38:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr5.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGLcrlF011429; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:38:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BYV26772 (AUTH bob@wyman.us); Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:38:52 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411162138.BYV26772@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Danny Ayers'" Cc: "'Walter Underwood'" , "'Atom WG'" Subject: RE: No to all PaceCategory* proposals... Support SubjectIndicators instead. Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:38:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd0411161301143b43d5@mail.gmail.com> Thread-Index: AcTMIG6cxBsHH2jLRBmssqi7qbsLsgAASkGA Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Danny Ayers wrote: > Bob, quick question: Take PaceCategoryRevised. Replace the word > "category" with "subject"/"subjectIndicator" throughout. > What doesn't work? Well, I don't think subjects should have schemes. They should just be URIs. What I would probably do is something like this: Where "category" is an optional child element but "subjectIndicator" is required. Thus, the minimal form for this subject would be: Using this method, it is possible for many different systems to assign distinct classifications to unique subjectIndicators. Additionally, distinct systems can map multiple subjectIndicators to a single classification if there isn't consistency in the use of subjectIndicators. It also becomes very easy to convert between systems (just lookup the subjectIndicator to discover the classification) and it is easy to provide classification in an I18N context. Basically, if we switch our focus to subjectIndicators, the world is wonderful and terribly simple -- except for the minor problem which is that everyone except librarians and IR specialists think of this stuff in terms of classification and we'll have to spend lots of time telling people "No, that's not a 'subject' it's a classification....!" bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 17:28:37 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA01657 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:28:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGMKaix054491; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:20:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGMKa8L054490; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:20:36 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk ([161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGMKZlo054196 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:20:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iAGMIXoV014331; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:18:37 GMT In-Reply-To: <20041116193258.082687240D0@mail.pubsub.com> References: <20041116193258.082687240D0@mail.pubsub.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-15--70253387; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <748F70D4-381D-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Cc: "'Walter Underwood'" , "'Atom WG'" From: Graham Subject: Re: No to all PaceCategory* proposals... Support SubjectIndicators instead. Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:18:34 +0000 To: bobwyman@pubsub.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-15--70253387 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nobody cares Bob. The primary use of the category element is to pass on the the aggregator the categories already in use in blogs - eg go to http://www.gizmodo.com/ and look at the little "filed under" subtitles. The relative merits of different theories of categorization are irrelevant (as, quite possibly, are the scheme and term attributes in the current proposals). Graham --Apple-Mail-15--70253387 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMTE2MjIxODM0WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUVTqB/PLNjFMmnb35xGyYarln U8IweAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEAWw7Dkt+yCW468KMQYb3vdE5U 1K9CrRF3zuizD2CaeNXGpQCkTsvjGat02J1PLhHEdu/pLXys3V0fzDnMNQ0EKpWMO9Oc3mIgzX4D OuHb0QvTvOKILqaeI2JxIJpwtGCJR2CkdQYmHcTUpPvn3DbyrRJGQVxtFpvNcoIWvYHqzfULNOZG gYJGgbMu9bYIWAKrR3BchqjjPyXXNCxTs+Puuyn+0Q7POJaEns9VwapAgPLsH+g7NJrlbfquinR9 Iwn00MkkLtUEIMUsBxK0BcP64iONc/y9CZGq41UiXU5WoPEsrdBZmCLe5yFJb+ByZqERyqq+Wiv9 hKJh0sAYrl0xbAAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-15--70253387-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 17:47:40 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA04814 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:47:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGMd9Bx061739; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:39:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGMd9cg061737; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:39:09 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr2.netsolmail.com (omr2.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.163]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGMd8lR061723 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:39:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr2.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGMdD25017896; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:39:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BYV48276 (AUTH bob@wyman.us); Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:38:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411162238.BYV48276@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Graham'" Cc: "'Walter Underwood'" , "'Atom WG'" Subject: RE: No to all PaceCategory* proposals... Support SubjectIndicators instead. Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:38:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <748F70D4-381D-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Thread-Index: AcTMKoN+7WMcudb5RqGY8VnR1ENDbQAAbFGw Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: >Nobody cares Bob. Yup. You're probably right. 'tis a pity... Would the various authors of PaceCategory* proposals at least consider providing an attribute for subjectIndicator so that those of us with quixotic tendencies can spend the next few years vainly trying to get people to use it? bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 18:01:48 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA06400 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:01:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGMrclI069489; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:53:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGMrcRB069487; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:53:38 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr2.netsolmail.com (omr2.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.163]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGMrcnL069469 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:53:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr2.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGMrg27024582 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:53:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BYV52705 (AUTH bob@wyman.us); Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:53:41 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411162253.BYV52705@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Atom WG'" Subject: OFFTOPIC: How do we add metrics data to entries? Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:53:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0051_01C4CC05.345BC9F0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-Index: AcTMLxr8WoRayeppRyaNZ65ldISubg== Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C4CC05.345BC9F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I realize that some day we'll have Atom extensibility worked out; however, I need to add some stuff to an Atom 0.3 feed now and would like some advice on doing it properly and in a fashion that has a chance of being compatible with Atom v1.0. Please bear with me. What we'd like to do is augment entries that we put in our compound feeds by adding "metric" information that can be used by aggregators to sort, select, etc. For instance, at http://pubsub.com/linkranks.php we compute a "LinkRank" for blogs based on the pattern of incoming links that they get. We've been asked by a number of aggregator developers to insert this rank into the entries that we publish so that they can be used in sorting, selecting, etc. There are other metrics that we could add as well - various measures of activity, popularity, relevance to specific topic areas, classifications, etc. But, LinkRanks will be the first we deal with. We're currently thinking that we'd like to add elements like the following to the entries that we republish: 27 This would indicate that the feed had a LinkRank of 27. politics This would indicate that our classification engine believes that the entry is discussing "politics". This would not replace any user specified "category" data. Would the encoding shown above be appropriate for use in feeds? Do you think it will end up being compatible with whatever the Atom V1.0 extensibility rules end up being? If not, can you suggest a better encoding? Also, if you think this makes sense, could you suggest some metrics that you would like to see inserted into entries by in-channel processors like PubSub.com? bob wyman ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C4CC05.345BC9F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I realize that some day = we’ll have Atom extensibility worked out; however, I need to add some stuff to = an Atom 0.3 feed now and would like some advice on doing it properly and in = a fashion that has a chance of being compatible with Atom v1.0. Please = bear with me…

What we’d like to do = is augment entries that we put in our compound feeds by adding =  “metric” information that can be used by aggregators to sort, select, etc. For = instance, at http://pubsub.com/linkranks.php<= /a> we compute a “LinkRank” for blogs based on the pattern of = incoming links that they get. We’ve been asked by a number of aggregator developers to insert this rank into the entries that we publish so that = they can be used in sorting, selecting, etc.

There are other metrics = that we could add as well – various measures of activity, popularity, = relevance to specific topic areas, classifications, etc. But, LinkRanks will be = the first we deal with.

We’re currently = thinking that we’d like to add elements like the following to the entries that = we republish:

 

<ps:metric = scheme=3D”ps:LinkRank”>27</ps:metric>

         =    This would indicate that the feed had a LinkRank of 27.

 

         =    <ps:metric = scheme=3D”ps:classification”>politics</ps:metric>

         =    This would indicate that our classification engine believes that the entry is discussing “politics”. This would = not replace any user specified “category” = data.

 

         =    Would the encoding shown above be appropriate for use in feeds? Do you think it will end up being compatible with = whatever the Atom V1.0 extensibility rules end up being? If not, can you suggest = a better encoding? Also, if you think this makes sense, could you suggest = some metrics that you would like to see inserted into entries by in-channel processors like PubSub.com?

 

         =             &= nbsp;  bob wyman

 

------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C4CC05.345BC9F0-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 18:03:11 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA06533 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:03:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGMwXwx071828; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:58:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGMwXCg071827; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:58:33 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGMwXPN071696 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:58:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004111622583101400gse0se>; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:58:31 +0000 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:58:30 -0700 Subject: Re: No to all PaceCategory* proposals... Support SubjectIndicators instead. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <200411162138.BYV26772@ms8.netsolmail.com> Message-Id: <08AA9A80-3823-11D9-AE2C-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, November 16, 2004, at 02:38 PM, Bob Wyman wrote: > Danny Ayers wrote: >> Bob, quick question: Take PaceCategoryRevised. Replace the word >> "category" with "subject"/"subjectIndicator" throughout. >> What doesn't work? > Well, I don't think subjects should have schemes. They should just > be URIs. What I would probably do is something like this: > > subjectIndicator="http://bobwyman.pubsub.com/" > label="Bob Wyman's Blog"> > term="Writers/Idiocy/Complete" > label="Crazy People" > scheme="http://pedantic.org/topics.xtm"/> > > The idea makes sense, but I don't quite understand how to translate it to practice. A few questions: 1) If I use the URI "http://www.geckotribe.com/atom" to talk about the Atom format, and you use "http://bobwyman.pubsub.com/atom" for the same thing, how is a client to discover that these are the same subject? 2) What's to prevent two people from using the same URI as the subjectIndicator for different subjects? For example: "http://www.xerox.com/" -- is that the company Xerox, or copy machines in general? 3) How should one go about selecting a URI to represent a particular subject, especially if the subject isn't something on the internet? Would you expect publishing tools to present a UI that hides the URIs? I guess I'm having a hard time seeing how, in practice, this would be better than the existing proposals. Antone From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 18:08:23 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA07512 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:08:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGN3lnG073971; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:03:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGN3l4c073970; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:03:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGN3k3T073958 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:03:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from duerst@w3.org) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C4E14EEE9; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:03:50 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20041117075441.062a8370@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:57:35 +0900 To: Antone Roundy , atom-syntax@imc.org From: Martin Duerst Subject: ISBN changes (Re: PaceHeadInEntry) In-Reply-To: <54B25302-3803-11D9-AE2C-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> References: <775EC046-3801-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <54B25302-3803-11D9-AE2C-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 04:11 04/11/17, Antone Roundy wrote: >And unless an atom:feed's ID changes whenever the contents of its atom:head changes (as I believe a books ISBN would change if a new edition were released, right?), This is just hearsay from some of the URN debates, but as far as I understand, ISBNs get reused, sometimes for new editions, and sometimes for totally different books (assuming the old one is out of print). Allocation is up to the publisher, and what an edition is is also more or less up to the publishers (there are things such as major and minor editions, printings, and so on). I'm sure there are some people on this list who know better. Regards, Martin. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 18:10:19 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA07781 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:10:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGN3o9j073999; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:03:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGN3ovK073998; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:03:50 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGN3nJ0073992 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:03:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from duerst@w3.org) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DFB24EF7A; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:03:52 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20041117075755.07f15340@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 08:03:37 +0900 To: , "'Lance Lavandowska'" , "'Atom WG'" From: Martin Duerst Subject: RE: PaceHeadInEntry In-Reply-To: <200411161631.BYU09145@ms8.netsolmail.com> References: <96d7d77c0411160756501a9cea@mail.gmail.com> <200411161631.BYU09145@ms8.netsolmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 01:31 04/11/17, Bob Wyman wrote: > >I prefer Lance Lavandowska 's wording to my own. So, take the proposal as: > >"Elements or attributes of atom:entry which are defined as being >inherited from atom:head MUST inherit from the atom:head of the >atom:entry, if present. If atom:head is not present in atom:entry >then inheritance descends from the atom:head of the parent feed." > >If nobody complains soon, I'll update the Pace. Sorry, but I'm not sure what this means. Assume the following: foo bar It is clear that foo applies to entry1. It is clear that bar applies to entry2. But does foo apply to entry2? It looks like it does, because there is no in entry2's head, and it looks like it doesn't, because there is a in entry2, so you can forget about anything in the feed . Which one is it? I'd prefer that foo applies to entry2, but apart from that, either way, the text isn't clear enough. Regards, Martin. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 18:10:55 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA07944 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:10:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGN3hEG073930; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:03:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGN3hUV073929; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:03:43 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGN3gMQ073923 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:03:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from duerst@w3.org) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7DCF4EEE9; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:03:44 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20041117073609.07e75290@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:38:21 +0900 To: Henry Story , "'Atom WG'" From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: Quark, Strangeness and Charm Cc: Danny Ayers In-Reply-To: <6237647A-37DC-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> References: <1f2ed5cd041116053978fafb2c@mail.gmail.com> <6237647A-37DC-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 23:32 04/11/16, Henry Story wrote: > 4- Have a very simple example that shows where one needs to place the > rdf:parseType="Resource" attributes to turn the document into RDF -- > if this is needed at all. In the simpler cases (and I think this may apply to Atom), there are even well-known formal ways to describe this. It's just default attributes, so any DTD can do it. There would be a standard DTD for Atom (without these attributes), and an RDF-oriented (with these attributes). With that RDF-enhanced DTD, it might go straight into an RDF parser. Regards, Martin. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 18:20:30 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA09224 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:20:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGNEDAR078763; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:14:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAGNEDeg078762; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:14:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr1.netsolmail.com (omr1.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.162]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAGNECwI078719 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:14:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr1.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGNE8q1004176; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:14:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BYV57948 (AUTH bob@wyman.us); Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:14:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411162314.BYV57948@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Martin Duerst'" , , "'Lance Lavandowska'" , "'Atom WG'" Subject: RE: PaceHeadInEntry Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:14:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20041117075755.07f15340@localhost> Thread-Index: AcTMMJ27xXFG+rBrSQyckefwPdvSPQAACcPw Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Martin Duerst wrote: > But does foo apply to entry2? I would argue that it does not. Since entry2 contains a element, all entry-level "inheritance" should be from that entry -- not from the feed's . The mere presence of should re-route *ALL* inheritance, not just inheritance of the elements which appear in the . Imagine the following: Tom Bombadil The Fellowship Sauron ... Since the entry contains a , it should NOT inherit author, copyright or anything else from the feed's head. bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 20:03:12 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA18294 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:03:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAH0rekO023140; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:53:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAH0rem9023139; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:53:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail08.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail08.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.24]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iAH0rdpV023108 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:53:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 54627 messnum 3866328 invoked from network[83.70.225.10/83-70-225-10.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 17 Nov 2004 00:53:39 -0000 Received: from 83-70-225-10.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?192.168.123.143?) (83.70.225.10) by mail08.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 54627) with SMTP; 17 Nov 2004 00:53:39 -0000 Message-ID: <419AA111.6040504@dehora.net> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 00:53:37 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax Subject: Re: PaceHeadInEntry References: <200411162314.BYV57948@ms8.netsolmail.com> In-Reply-To: <200411162314.BYV57948@ms8.netsolmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Wyman wrote: > Since the entry contains a , it should NOT inherit author, > copyright or anything else from the feed's head. I dislike this kind of stealthy implication for which we require a short circuit mechanism to patch around. It's much to better to declare that you want something from another context expanded in the current context. IOW if people want inheritance to occur they should ask for it explicitly, not disable it explicitly. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 22:39:15 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA01470 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:39:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAH3NgQS090153; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:23:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAH3NgJB090152; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:23:42 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAH3NWsn090047 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:23:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAH3Ndui018375 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:23:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I7B00MWQ03EV0@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:23:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.150.178.82] ([206.16.227.208]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0I7B00AAY03CY8@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:23:38 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:23:41 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 In-reply-to: <109F71C3-3808-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> To: Henry Story Cc: Antone Roundy , "'Atom WG'" Message-id: <14869576-3848-11D9-BA61-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <55BB994E-3805-11D9-AE2C-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <109F71C3-3808-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 16, 2004, at 11:45 AM, Henry Story wrote: > But as Antone specifies in that mail, the differences are not > insurmountable. I have tried to answer some of his most difficult > questions in an e-mail [2]. Since they are different on the surface, and most people are going to easily understand that they are different, I just don't see the benefits from peering deep to find the essential sameness. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 22:39:24 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA01524 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:39:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAH3R24u091796; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:27:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAH3R2lw091795; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:27:02 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay101-dav14.bay101.hotmail.com [64.4.56.86]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAH3R2ge091737 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:27:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mdierken@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:27:01 -0800 Received: from 207.202.171.254 by BAY101-DAV14.phx.gbl with DAV; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 03:26:57 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [207.202.171.254] X-Originating-Email: [mdierken@hotmail.com] X-Sender: mdierken@hotmail.com From: "S. Mike Dierken" To: "Antone Roundy" , , "Martin Duerst" References: <775EC046-3801-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <54B25302-3803-11D9-AE2C-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20041117075441.062a8370@localhost> Subject: Re: ISBN changes (Re: PaceHeadInEntry) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:27:01 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Nov 2004 03:27:01.0477 (UTC) FILETIME=[4D52B950:01C4CC55] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >And unless an atom:feed's ID changes whenever the contents of its > atom:head changes (as I believe a books ISBN would change if a new edition > were released, right?), New editions often have new ISBNs. But not always. > > This is just hearsay from some of the URN debates, but as far as I > understand, ISBNs get reused, sometimes for new editions, and sometimes > for totally different books (assuming the old one is out of print). Yes, that is true. > Allocation is up to the publisher, and what an edition is is also > more or less up to the publishers (there are things such as > major and minor editions, printings, and so on). > I'm sure there are some people on this list who know better. > Yep. Sometimes an ISBN is used by a publisher for a pre-release of a book that isn't actually published & the ISBN is re-used. This causes all kinds of havoc at Amazon, but we've got tools & systems that validate/verify & attempt to double check this sort of issue. Similar problems happen with UPCs. For example, many toys have different models yet use the same UPC (Rescue Heroes is an example). This causes problems when a warehouse receives an item, scans the UPC & has several choices - the pink Barbie or the purple Barbie... If you really want to know more details on ISBN I can ask around & get more specifics. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 16 22:39:25 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA01527 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:39:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAH3KbFd088368; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:20:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAH3Kbhb088367; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:20:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAH3KWTl088279 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:20:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAH3KaNH011018 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:20:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I7A00MSBZYCV0@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:20:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.150.178.82] ([206.16.227.208]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0I7A00ADGZY5Y9@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:20:35 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:20:39 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: PaceHeadInEntry In-reply-to: To: Walter Underwood Cc: "'Atom WG'" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <200411161631.BYU09145@ms8.netsolmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 16, 2004, at 10:03 AM, Walter Underwood wrote: > > I'd rather not see "inherit". Just say something like "values from the > atom:head of the parent feed are used." Agreed that the verb "inherit" is overloaded with semantics that we probably don't want Atom to, uh, inherit. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 17 03:47:10 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA28892 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 03:47:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAH8Uftb069938; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 00:30:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAH8Ufc5069937; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 00:30:41 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAH8Ue3u069807 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 00:30:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 85900 invoked by uid 17064); 17 Nov 2004 08:30:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.129.246]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 17 Nov 2004 08:30:32 -0000 In-Reply-To: <14869576-3848-11D9-BA61-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> References: <55BB994E-3805-11D9-AE2C-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <109F71C3-3808-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <14869576-3848-11D9-BA61-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Tim Bray From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:30:26 +0100 To: "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok. I agree that there are arguments in favor and arguments against. I will go back to working on BlogEd[0], keeping in mind Anotone Roundy's points [1][2], and see if the simplification that I am proposing here, and that is implemented in BlogEd, really do end up creating any problems or confusions. I have not come across any yet. In the meantime I'll leave the pace open. I think it should be revisited later. The way things are going [3] things are going to be getting a lot more complicated in this spec really fast. [0] https://bloged.dev.java.net/ [1] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11577.html [2] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11673.html [3] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11662.html On 17 Nov 2004, at 04:23, Tim Bray wrote: > On Nov 16, 2004, at 11:45 AM, Henry Story wrote: > >> But as Antone specifies in that mail, the differences are not >> insurmountable. I have tried to answer some of his most difficult >> questions in an e-mail [2]. > > Since they are different on the surface, and most people are going to > easily understand that they are different, I just don't see the > benefits from peering deep to find the essential sameness. -Tim > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 17 04:50:53 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA05820 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 04:50:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAH9dNk2022930; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 01:39:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAH9dN6d022929; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 01:39:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAH9dMBI022920 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 01:39:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 35738 invoked by uid 17064); 17 Nov 2004 09:39:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.129.246]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 17 Nov 2004 09:39:23 -0000 In-Reply-To: <200411162111.BYV16854@ms8.netsolmail.com> References: <200411162111.BYV16854@ms8.netsolmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <8D51D54F-387C-11D9-A0AA-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: " " From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceHeadInEntry Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:39:18 +0100 To: "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, as I said you are splitting hairs here. You have identified 1 way to pass by value, and 2 ways to pass by reference. Under one of the interpretations of passing by reference (which you call passing by ID), it is true to say that what you are proposing is a pass by value version of what atom:origin passed by id-reference. With the important proviso that the reference should be a Feed version reference. Ok. So what is the point of my pointing this out? 1. With a slight reworking of atom:origin it would do what you are proposing to do with atom:head 2. By insisting on calling it atom:head you are trying to identify an entry metadata with the feed metada. This was very well explained by Antone Roundy [1] 3. I find the model on which you are basing your idea [2] very difficult to follow [3], not to say incomprehensible. ((You argue that your inability to model this in UML is due to the limitations of UML and the restrictions imposed on the xml format [4]. But this is doubly suspicious. There are ways around this. One such is to build a model that is more powerful than what Atom currently allows and then simply to add restrictions later. If UML is not good enough, first order logic would also do. Another solution is OWL, which can be mapped onto set theory, so modelling in OWL inherits that precision.)) Henry Story [1] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11662.html [2] propounded here http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11639.html [3] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11644.html [4] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11653.html On 16 Nov 2004, at 22:11, Bob Wyman wrote: > > Henry Story wrote: >> Tim Bray wrote: >>> Would it be an oversimplification to say that this provides by >>> value what atom:origin provides by reference? -Tim >> Ok. So the oversimplification is only that atom:origin does not use a >> version construct. > What you are saying is that Tim would not have been oversimplifying > if only he had said something that he did not say. > > As much as you may wish to avoid the point, atom:origin does *not* > pass data by reference. The atom:id is explicitly defined in the Atom > spec > as being something that can not be dereferenced -- even though it is > noted > that it sometimes might be. This is not like a "broken URL." URLs are > intended to be dereferenceable and we say they are "broken" if they > aren't > derefenceable. However, an atom:id is not "broken" if it can't be > dereferenced since there is neither a guarantee nor an expectation > that you > should be able to dereference an atom:id. > What we may be distinguishing here is a third, and not terribly > useful way of passing data... Consider that we have: > 1. Pass by value (real bits) > 2. Pass by reference (via an URL) > 3. Pass by ID (via a URI that can't be dereferenced.) > That third form, "pass by id" is simply not very useful in most > situations even though it does have utility in some situations. > Nonetheless, > it ain't "pass by reference." > > bob wyman > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 17 06:33:00 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA15371 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 06:32:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAHBLY6w000437; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 03:21:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAHBLYWv000435; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 03:21:34 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.196]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAHBLYFo000405 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 03:21:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 1so671779rny for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 03:21:33 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=W5ij3WElM5BzIAC0YH9uQnGHz+gj3iCA9XBz+wB4pvFivqo4LTjvsxJwPr3eW1fomoyp53vm/fTsaW7qyZFV93sb6C3GrO65azEuTv7/WTDNopSFsjlMM08ADP0KmhLxVcmyCiptjSukF+CD7LD/fbMD3iqhn5OTmiY8A8upEao= Received: by 10.38.179.75 with SMTP id b75mr236824rnf; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 03:21:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.40 with HTTP; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 03:21:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04111703217912f970@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:21:32 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: Quark, Strangeness and Charm Cc: Henry Story , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20041117073609.07e75290@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <1f2ed5cd041116053978fafb2c@mail.gmail.com> <6237647A-37DC-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <6.0.0.20.2.20041117073609.07e75290@localhost> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:38:21 +0900, Martin Duerst wrote: > At 23:32 04/11/16, Henry Story wrote: > > > 4- Have a very simple example that shows where one needs to place the > > rdf:parseType="Resource" attributes to turn the document into RDF -- > > if this is needed at all. > > In the simpler cases (and I think this may apply to Atom), there > are even well-known formal ways to describe this. It's just default > attributes, so any DTD can do it. There would be a standard DTD > for Atom (without these attributes), and an RDF-oriented (with > these attributes). With that RDF-enhanced DTD, it might go straight > into an RDF parser. If I remember correctly, the use of DTDs in this way have passed through the list before (pre-IETF). I think the idea was discounted at the time for one or two practical reasons (sorry, I forget why, and Googling didn't help), but given the present circumstances it may well be worth revisiting. If a DTD could be used to provide a transparent overlay in this way without breaking anything else, that'd be great. Henry's approach of having an implicit mapping to RDF that can be made explicit through the insertion of one or two other-namespace attributes really does sound a low-cost, potentially uncontroversial way of making an RDF interpretation available. I think this may also offer a good reference for structural interpretation of extension elements too (as in Quark, Strangeness and Charm). Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 17 07:12:11 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA19452 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:12:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAHC3LpK028819; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 04:03:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAHC3LZ8028818; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 04:03:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.195]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAHC3KWI028792 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 04:03:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so641565rns for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 04:03:21 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=QkPYVA9SwflFx/4bgoa3IkEN32le0QG1x9CaoToTs53NUEOgNLpwcUmOpWAzabxOgwU6heS70j00tIAJ94kSqZ+7kKV/tM9vhuof0XwFIIK871WS76OnM6dHh6hN5f6WNaT/vlDbJDNoiZqSeAnHo+pWpv9HJUWxgmYP90FtYIc= Received: by 10.38.179.4 with SMTP id b4mr231165rnf; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 04:03:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.40 with HTTP; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 04:03:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd041117040324c606ed@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:03:21 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: bob@wyman.us Subject: Re: No to all PaceCategory* proposals... Support SubjectIndicators instead. Cc: Walter Underwood , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <200411162138.BYV26772@ms8.netsolmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <1f2ed5cd0411161301143b43d5@mail.gmail.com> <200411162138.BYV26772@ms8.netsolmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:38:48 -0500, Bob Wyman wrote: > Danny Ayers wrote: > > Bob, quick question: Take PaceCategoryRevised. Replace the word > > "category" with "subject"/"subjectIndicator" throughout. > > What doesn't work? > Well, I don't think subjects should have schemes. They should just > be URIs. Hmm, couldn't the scheme slot contain the subject indicator URI? (or scheme+term concatenated?) >What I would probably do is something like this: > subjectIndicator="http://bobwyman.pubsub.com/" > label="Bob Wyman's Blog"> > term="Writers/Idiocy/Complete" > label="Crazy People" > scheme="http://pedantic.org/topics.xtm"/> > Sorry, I can't see the intent here - in English? I've not gone into TMs in any depth myself, though it's clear they have got these things worked out pretty well. Over in the RDF world the SKOS vocabulary [1] is the place for heavy-duty thesaurus/categorization kind of stuff, and coincidentally the core vocab got a subjectIndicator property about a week ago [2]. I'm still optimistic that references can be made to TM PSIs and SKOS mappings. The current Pace has a slot for a for a URI one for a string (in addition to the label), that must be adequate, surely? Maybe some renaming of the elements/attributes could make things clearer? > Basically, if we switch our focus to subjectIndicators, the world is > wonderful and terribly simple -- except for the minor problem which is that > everyone except librarians and IR specialists think of this stuff in terms > of classification and we'll have to spend lots of time telling people "No, > that's not a 'subject' it's a classification....!" That is a point - and as Graham says, the primary use will be the simple use as found in blogs. But it would be a shame if more industrial-strength classification/categorization weren't possible. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 17 12:20:18 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA21210 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:20:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAHH2dlD056357; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:02:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAHH2dvW056356; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:02:39 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.143.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAHH2dMh056298 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:02:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 361A4B7 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:02:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.150.112] (diva.verity.com [192.168.150.112]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id iAHH2ZKB022563 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:02:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:11:09 -0800 From: Walter Underwood To: "'Atom WG'" Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <55BB994E-3805-11D9-AE2C-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <109F71C3-3808-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <14869576-3848-11D9-BA61-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How about an approach that is specific to the defaulted values? 1. The feed metadata is split into feed-meta and entry-meta-defaults. 2. Each item in the entry metadata is specified as defaultable or not. 3. Entry metadata can be explicitly "unset" to not have a value, perhaps by using an empty element with an attribute to make it clear. Perhaps this has been proposed at one point. If so, I missed it amongst all the other discussion. This is orthogonal to whether feeds and entries are kinds of each other. If they are, the feed-meta and entry-meta will need to be coordinated. wunder --On Wednesday, November 17, 2004 09:30:26 AM +0100 Henry Story wrote: > > Ok. I agree that there are arguments in favor and arguments against. > > I will go back to working on BlogEd[0], keeping in mind Anotone Roundy's points [1][2], and see if the simplification that I am proposing here, and that is implemented in BlogEd, really do end up creating any problems or confusions. I have not come across any yet. > > In the meantime I'll leave the pace open. I think it should be revisited later. The way things are going [3] things are going to be getting a lot more complicated in this spec really fast. > > [0] https://bloged.dev.java.net/ > [1] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11577.html > [2] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11673.html > [3] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11662.html > > > On 17 Nov 2004, at 04:23, Tim Bray wrote: >> On Nov 16, 2004, at 11:45 AM, Henry Story wrote: >> >>> But as Antone specifies in that mail, the differences are not >>> insurmountable. I have tried to answer some of his most difficult >>> questions in an e-mail [2]. >> >> Since they are different on the surface, and most people are going to >> easily understand that they are different, I just don't see the >> benefits from peering deep to find the essential sameness. -Tim >> > -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect Verity Ultraseek From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 17 13:18:13 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA26573 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:18:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAHI7ELg075724; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:07:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAHI7Eie075722; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:07:14 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAHI7DAV075707 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:07:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 15835 invoked by uid 17064); 17 Nov 2004 18:07:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.137.29]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 17 Nov 2004 18:07:17 -0000 In-Reply-To: <53815C3C68E175340988EB62@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> References: <200411160222.BYS19062@ms8.netsolmail.com> <53815C3C68E175340988EB62@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <7FF12916-38C3-11D9-9561-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Walter Underwood From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2: FeedIsaEntry Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 19:07:10 +0100 To: "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I do want to emphasize that I don't think PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 forces one to accept the FeedIsAEntry model. It does allow it, so it may be a reason for some people to support it. As such I will respond to your questions here. On 16 Nov 2004, at 16:48, Walter Underwood wrote: > > --On Tuesday, November 16, 2004 12:58 PM +0100 Henry Story > wrote: >> >> Ok, so perhaps you would really like the model in which a Feed is a >> subclass of Entry. > > That is the normal approach for compound documents. Yes. It is probably not much more than the very well known composite pattern used in OO programming [1] > But I still > don't see a convincing reason. Here are some: - it could very well simplify the API. If there is only one thing or two that we are dealing with then we don't need a lot of special cases. - It would further simplify the spec. The spec for Feed would just say: has all the properties of an Entry and in addition can contain Entries. - It would allow you to present a Feed of Entries and responses to those. (Though one could also disallow this explicitly.) my feed Henry Story Creative commons licence my first entry This is great SuperMan is Clark Kent The other day I saw Clark Kent fly out of the window. He changed his suit in mid air, and saved the child that was about to get crushed by an out of control Atom robot Henry Story That can't be Graham Superman can fly. Clark Kent can not. A thing can't have two inconsistent properties. Duh! I know how we could test this! Antone Roundy What you say is increadible Henry. But I know how we could find out. Superman has a deadly fear of kryptonite, that humans don't have. I happen to have some. We just need to give some to Clark Kent. > And I do favor short specs. > > 1. People have been working on compound documents without much success > for at least fifteen years. To me, that indicates that they are either > very hard or not very useful. Interesting. Perhaps they were trying things that were a lot more difficult. In any case the Composite pattern is applied all over the place, with a lot of success. > 2. I have not seen a use case where a feed would be treated as an > entry. > If it is common, not just possible, for a feed to be an entry, then we > need this. Otherwise, we don't. Show me the real world use cases. I think the above use cases are amply sufficient to explain the advantage. > > 3. Identity is not sufficient for something to be the same class. It is > common for the same chemical to have multiple uses, each with different > trademarks, packaging, production, and sales figures. From a business > perspective, those identical chemicals must be treated as separate > things, e.g. a dessert topping and a floor wax. Yes. I am many things. I am Henry Story and I am a mass of cells. We can start splitting hairs all over the place and also end up with a spec 500 pages long. Or we could end up being simple, and up getting a really tiny, consistent and powerful spec out there. Small is beautiful. > > wunder > -- > Walter Underwood > Principal Architect, Verity [1] http://patterndigest.com/patterns/Composite.html From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 17 16:17:18 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA16016 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:17:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAHL4Vg0045973; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:04:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAHL4VsT045972; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:04:31 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.200]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAHL4UTP045961 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:04:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so672067rns for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:04:18 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=gHX9GTfUkUykvMwkVd9hnmlSUizBtUh1BVK0sliKh4wHw3CugLaU+TDIfBy/elmntiTgjgRhexKFuwnb/LYAnOTpfstBE2tLjIlBlelVvoC7cQ9bEe2FagDC+VO4p3GHuW2QrohewKAbDUwEnYH37F02SeQLDvKtArsxANdWpN0= Received: by 10.38.179.4 with SMTP id b4mr465033rnf; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:04:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.40 with HTTP; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:04:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04111713047b14cca1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 22:04:18 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: bob@wyman.us Subject: Re: OFFTOPIC: How do we add metrics data to entries? Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: <200411162253.BYV52705@ms8.netsolmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200411162253.BYV52705@ms8.netsolmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:53:36 -0500, Bob Wyman wrote: I think the idea has a *lot* of potential. The information that needs to be carried is of a pretty generic type: (name, value) so this should make a very good use case for Atom extensibility - on topic. The syntax seems fine for Atom, but it would be nice* to be able to use the same extension syntax for RSS 1.0 and 2.0 as well. Unfortunately RDF/XML balks on this structure: 27 "item" is the subject, "ps:metric" is the property, and object is...[*crunch*] Alternatives that should work for RSS 1.0, 2.0 and Atom (assuming appropriate namespacing) include: 27 politics LinkRank 27 LinkRank 27 27 politics + plenty of others... > Also, if you think this makes sense, could you suggest some metrics that you > would like to see inserted into entries by in-channel processors like > PubSub.com? Hmm, most of what could be inserted in an individual feed that would be available to a client anyway, though things like update stats might be good for client auto-optimization. What I've been wanting to play with for a long while are similarity measures - how similar is this to the posts from Tim Bray say, allowing "more like this" or (not referring to Tim, 'course) "less like this"...and a dirty-word rating?... yep, all that wacky machine learning stuff that's been around for years waiting for an application... Cheers, Danny. * nice, in that at least it would allow easier XSLT, at most it would highlight modelling errors. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 17 16:26:44 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA18790 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:26:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAHLErwd049596; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:14:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAHLErF5049594; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:14:53 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.47]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAHLErkQ049588 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:14:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davemjohnson@mac.com) Received: from mac.com (smtpin02-en2 [10.13.10.147]) by smtpout.mac.com (8.12.6/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id iAHLEvIP025695 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:14:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.5.15] (40322028.ptr.dia.nextlink.net [64.50.32.40]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/smtpin02/MantshX 4.0) with ESMTP id iAHLEmt3021913 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:14:54 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Dave Johnson Subject: Publish as draft Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:16:19 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How do you publish a blog entry as a private or draft entry with the Atom Protocol? I don't see this feature in the spec, but I do see it in the XML-RPC based blogging APIs and in all of the blog servers I've evaluated. Is this an oversight? - Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 18 02:09:23 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA14896 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 02:09:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAI6jgnU095490; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 22:45:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAI6jg9K095489; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 22:45:42 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr3.netsolmail.com (omr3.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.164]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAI6jaqd095342 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 22:45:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr3.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAI6jbrb017013; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 01:45:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from boblaptop (68-174-167-137.nyc.rr.com [68.174.167.137]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id BZA05302; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 01:45:36 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411180645.BZA05302@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Antone Roundy'" , Subject: RE: No to all PaceCategory* proposals... Support SubjectIndicators instead. Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 01:45:35 -0500 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <08AA9A80-3823-11D9-AE2C-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Thread-Index: AcTMMSk0VnWQ2XHsQQ2RdLVSHslUqQBAW00g Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Antone Roundy wrote: > 1) If I use the URI "http://www.geckotribe.com/atom" to talk about > the Atom format, and you use "http://bobwyman.pubsub.com/atom" for > the same thing, how is a client to discover that these are the > same subject? Do you really mean the same "subject" or did you mean the same "topic" or "category"? If you meant the same "topic/category, then XTM would encode this something like the following: (Note: I'm not an XTM guru. Please forgive errors in syntax...) The intent of the topic definition below is to say that both subjectIndicators refer to the same topic "The Atom Format." The The Atom Format Given that you might be supporting people working in multiple languages, you might find it handy to specify the name of the mapping from the subjectIndicators to topics in more than one language. Perhaps, both French and English... If that was your desire, then in XTM, you would specify language by establishing a "scope" for the baseName: The Atom Format Le Format Atom The definition above could, of course have been done in two declarations -- even in different files. However, the two would still be linked by the common subjectIndicators. > 2) What's to prevent two people from using the same URI as the > subjectIndicator for different subjects? For example: > "http://www.xerox.com/" -- is that the company Xerox, or copy > machines in general? Nothing other than a desire to make interop work. My assumption is that rules would say that people should create globally unique URI's for new subjectIndicators (tagURL's would work fine). Also, we should probably have a registry for these things. We'd be happy to fund and manage such a registry if subjectIndicators are accepted in Atom. In any case, I think we'll eventually find that people would tend to use commonly accepted subjectIndicators and then map them to "local" topics or categories. Getting conformance on subjectIndicators is much less "bad" then getting conformance on classification schemes since there is less "subjective" content to a subjectIndicator then there is to a classification. Accepting common classifications or topics can often force one particular point-of-view on others -- not good. bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 18 03:39:06 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA01057 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 03:39:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAI8T8Vp073383; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 00:29:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAI8T8mb073382; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 00:29:08 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAI8T7jH073240 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 00:29:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from quark (58.80-202-95.nextgentel.com [80.202.95.58]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 565283112; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:28:44 +0100 (MET) To: "Danny Ayers" Cc: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: Quark, Strangeness and Charm References: <1f2ed5cd041116053978fafb2c@mail.gmail.com> <6237647A-37DC-11D9-B0E7-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <6.0.0.20.2.20041117073609.07e75290@localhost> <1f2ed5cd04111703217912f970@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:30:30 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd04111703217912f970@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.60 (Win32, build 7321) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:21:32 +0100, Danny Ayers wrote: > If I remember correctly, the use of DTDs in this way have passed > through the list before (pre-IETF). I think the idea was discounted at > the time for one or two practical reasons (sorry, I forget why, and > Googling didn't help), but given the present circumstances it may well > be worth revisiting. If a DTD could be used to provide a transparent > overlay in this way without breaking anything else, that'd be great. Couldn't any document typing or schema language (e.g. XSD) do this? I too remember DTD's were abandoned, and it was probably for good reasons, but I don't remember what they were, either. But that's okay, because I don't like DTD's anyway. :-) > Henry's approach of having an implicit mapping to RDF that can be made > explicit through the insertion of one or two other-namespace > attributes really does sound a low-cost, potentially uncontroversial > way of making an RDF interpretation available. I think this may also > offer a good reference for structural interpretation of extension > elements too (as in Quark, Strangeness and Charm). Examples? -- Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- http://virtuelvis.com/quark/ «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 18 08:47:26 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA25115 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:47:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAIDZcbk068339; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:35:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAIDZcxK068338; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:35:38 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAIDZbM8068330 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:35:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAIDZbun002475 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 06:35:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe7 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I7D0014VN3C1N@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 06:35:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.150.176.79] ([63.240.223.195]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0I7D00FDPN3BIJ@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 06:35:36 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:35:47 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Good note from Brent Simmons To: "'Atom WG'" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT http://inessential.com/2004/11/17.php From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Nov 20 23:09:03 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA22623 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 23:09:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAL3nJ1B034372; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 19:49:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAL3nJfi034370; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 19:49:19 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.mnot.net (adsl-67-119-69-242.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAL3nEvn034332 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 19:49:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [10.0.1.30] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) by mail.mnot.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0651C728B for ; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 19:49:21 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham X-Face: }I;hHtiZ43-RK8s{or'?iELJ;!_Mt2|\hW'VcAn*UR#@;4p5@s},~+i=>p})B"gMK%m,`?|Cy>=P/om{?_\aOaPaDMK)TkU_b3]A85YU?A 3iYcf9##+Qu~e(m6w=ot[yfp1G)WXBYGcTM{!EWIB2n/%E@5PjJ_GXq(b2Fq0|#uL{ Subject: PaceFeedState Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 19:49:19 -0800 To: Atom WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've made a proposal to fill in the "Managing Feed State" section; comments / suggestions appreciated. http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceFeedState Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Nov 21 00:07:24 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA25742 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 00:07:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAL4ujI1092838; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 20:56:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAL4ujtN092832; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 20:56:45 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from xbox.wkearney.com (xbox.wkearney.com [66.92.145.79]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAL4ud2F092592 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 20:56:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wkearney@syndic8.com) Received: from media (media.wkearney.com [192.168.12.32]) by xbox.wkearney.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 275D3BC8B4 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 23:56:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <00d801c4cf86$7b30a790$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> From: "Bill Kearney" To: References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> Subject: Re: PaceFeedState Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 23:56:35 -0500 Organization: http://www.ideaspace.net/users/wkearney/foaf.xrdf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Are you proposing that something publishing a feed keep track of what entries were in previous versions? As in, feed X retrieved just now, contains entries a,b,c and feed Y was published last containing d,e,f. What sort of headers are you suggesting for providing info on uninformed requests? That is, from an aggregator that's never tried connecting before and doesn't have any previous knowledge of the feed? This being how most RSS aggregators behave currently. While I find the idea of tracking previous instances interesting I'm not sure how many content sources are going to capable, let alone interested, in doing so. I'd be more inclined to want semantics on what kinds of ranges a source can provide. Be they date, numeric index or other forms. As, informing the aggregator the source provides date range bounding, dns-like serial number increments, last ETag or whatever. But tracking what was the "previous" feed seems unlikely when something like a dynamic script source is being used. There is no "previous" instance only what the script detected as 'relevant' items at that time. -Bill Kearney ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Nottingham" > I've made a proposal to fill in the "Managing Feed State" section; > comments / suggestions appreciated. > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceFeedState From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Nov 21 05:29:54 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA04419 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 05:29:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iALABoWw022495; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 02:11:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iALABoL5022494; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 02:11:50 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.197]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iALABjsD022367 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 02:11:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so153260rns for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 02:11:44 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=l2InU5v9001rAmurFJxR9oOHNedL1Dq9h7QStQS8/psQ7Acv5gmKaUUJhaFUtIGnF3V55HZlaMh0+2+NzIlYUaQVhhOsTXjWxs37rSnoE9o+R9AMjZJlg/sK3e7q9u2VOr3+vN0riAzU3rharOMCU7vVaKDVZxRfmJVdTd6W1dk= Received: by 10.38.179.40 with SMTP id b40mr399132rnf; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 02:11:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.61 with HTTP; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 02:11:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0411210211229bf630@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:11:43 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: PaceFeedState Cc: Atom WG , henry.story@bblfish.net In-Reply-To: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 19:49:19 -0800, Mark Nottingham wrote: > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceFeedState [I typed before seeing Bill's response, I think's there's a bit of overlap] I'm not sure about some details (below) of what you've got at the moment but do reckon it would be useful to have some description of state management. If anything I'd like to see it expanded beyond desktop readers to describe caching apps, where the state will perhaps be even more significant. (i.e. put on the REST spectacles). There's also the well-known hassle of moving a blog from one server to another. In "Feed State Model" the assumption is being made that the order of the entries in the feed representation is significant (most recent at the top). I could be wrong, but I don't think that's in the spec. "Reconstructing Feed State", seems to me to be expecting rather a lot of the client, to remember every change and every feed head. I wouldn't have though a warning should be needed in its absence. Under what circumstances would the client actually want to reconstruct feed state? My guess is that would fall outside 80/20 applications. If anything like that does need to be preserved, might it not be the receipt order of the entries? (rel="previous" on entries perhaps) I think a note to clarify sort order etc would be helpful. Is 'wholefeed' feasible/desirable? I wouldn't have thought so outside of 'control' circumstances. How do you tell the difference between wholefeed (containing all revisions of entries) and wholefeed (containing only the latest)? Delete - yep, separate. As suggested in a recent thread, it would make most sense to have delete mean "removed from view" rather than "removed from existence". In which case it's only impact on the state would be the change of an attribute rather than any structural revision. fyi, Henry's done quite a bit of experimentation with state and entry versioning modelling in OWL (in Bloged), though I haven't any links at hand. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Nov 21 11:52:44 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA04475 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:52:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iALGchQ0095293; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 08:38:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iALGchkU095292; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 08:38:43 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.mnot.net (adsl-67-119-69-242.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iALGcYFV095228 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 08:38:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [10.0.1.43] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) by mail.mnot.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02E767280; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 08:38:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <00d801c4cf86$7b30a790$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> <00d801c4cf86$7b30a790$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham X-Face: }I;hHtiZ43-RK8s{or'?iELJ;!_Mt2|\hW'VcAn*UR#@;4p5@s},~+i=>p})B"gMK%m,`?|Cy>=P/om{?_\aOaPaDMK)TkU_b3]A85YU?A 3iYcf9##+Qu~e(m6w=ot[yfp1G)WXBYGcTM{!EWIB2n/%E@5PjJ_GXq(b2Fq0|#uL{ Subject: Re: PaceFeedState Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 08:38:33 -0800 To: "Bill Kearney" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Nov 20, 2004, at 8:56 PM, Bill Kearney wrote: > > Are you proposing that something publishing a feed keep track of what > entries were in previous versions? As in, feed X retrieved just now, > contains entries a,b,c and feed Y was published last containing d,e,f. I think you mean 'feed document' instead of 'feed' here, correct? How you do this is implementation-specific; see below. All I'm really suggesting is that Atom Feed Documents are in fact persistent (in that there's a URI for the particular instance you're viewing); they can be referred to by other Atom Feed Documents to reconstruct an Atom Feed. > What sort of headers are you suggesting for providing info on > uninformed > requests? That is, from an aggregator that's never tried connecting > before > and doesn't have any previous knowledge of the feed? This being how > most > RSS aggregators behave currently. If they want to try to get the whole state of the feed, they can do so by either of the methods described. If they can't reconstruct it, they'll inform the user that they can't, but can show the best guess. Do you think more is necessary? > While I find the idea of tracking previous instances interesting I'm > not > sure how many content sources are going to capable, let alone > interested, in > doing so. How hard is it to keep the last n feed documents you've published? Conceptually, for a feed called myfeed.atom, all you need to do is: 1. extract the 'this' URI from myfeed.atom to $old 2. create a feed document containing the new entries, with a 'this' URI of $new 3. publish the new document at $new with a link[@rel='prev']/@this of $old 4. make myfeed.atom a symlink or HTTP redirect to $new 5. delete older feed files if necessary. > I'd be more inclined to want semantics on what kinds of ranges a > source can > provide. Be they date, numeric index or other forms. As, informing > the > aggregator the source provides date range bounding, dns-like serial > number > increments, last ETag or whatever. But tracking what was the > "previous" > feed seems unlikely when something like a dynamic script source is > being > used. There is no "previous" instance only what the script detected as > 'relevant' items at that time. I considered a number of approaches like this, where you expose an interface that clients can query for specific entries. However, a significant number of users will not want to use a script, for both performance and deployment considerations. As such, I wanted to have a system that doesn't require special handling on the server side. Nothing in the proposal precludes you from layering in a more complex solution. OTOH, a script can easily handle this approach if they keep a tiny bit of extra state (which 'this' URI(s) an entry is associated with*) around. Cheers, * Alternatively, they could keep a list of entry IDs that the last N Feed Documents are associated with; this doesn't require per-Entry metadata, and wouldn't take as much room.** ** Or they could encode the entries a Feed Document is associated with in the 'this' URI if they didn't want to keep this state at all; e.g., link rel='this' href='http://www.example.com/entry;id1;id2;id3;id4' This approach doesn't require any extra state. -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Nov 21 11:57:09 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA04857 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:57:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iALGjwuL097686; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 08:45:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iALGjwM7097685; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 08:45:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.mnot.net (adsl-67-119-69-242.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iALGjvot097679 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 08:45:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [10.0.1.43] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) by mail.mnot.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB406728A; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 08:46:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd0411210211229bf630@mail.gmail.com> References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> <1f2ed5cd0411210211229bf630@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Atom WG , henry.story@bblfish.net X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham X-Face: }I;hHtiZ43-RK8s{or'?iELJ;!_Mt2|\hW'VcAn*UR#@;4p5@s},~+i=>p})B"gMK%m,`?|Cy>=P/om{?_\aOaPaDMK)TkU_b3]A85YU?A 3iYcf9##+Qu~e(m6w=ot[yfp1G)WXBYGcTM{!EWIB2n/%E@5PjJ_GXq(b2Fq0|#uL{ Subject: Re: PaceFeedState Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 08:46:00 -0800 To: Danny Ayers X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Nov 21, 2004, at 2:11 AM, Danny Ayers wrote: > > In "Feed State Model" the assumption is being made that the order of > the entries in the feed representation is significant (most recent at > the top). I could be wrong, but I don't think that's in the spec. Correct. I think we need to disambiguate this in any case, if there is an overall concept of a feed that's greater than the current document. > "Reconstructing Feed State", seems to me to be expecting rather a lot > of the client, to remember every change and every feed head. It doesn't have to remember every change; it just has to remember the last feed 'this' URI that it saw, so it can walk its way backwards to it. > I wouldn't have though a warning should be needed in its absence. Under > what circumstances would the client actually want to reconstruct feed > state? My guess is that would fall outside 80/20 applications. Most aggregators do it today; they're just sloppy about it (because they don't have a mechanism like this). To me, the most boring aggregators are those built into browsers that don't keep state. To me, the warning is absolutely critical; it raises the guarantee you get with Atom, and differentiates it from RSS substantially. > If anything like that does need to be preserved, might it not be the > receipt order of the entries? (rel="previous" on entries perhaps) > I think a note to clarify sort order etc would be helpful. Yes, it would; I don't mean to preclude the use of lexical order, just that it doesn't mean something automatically. > Is 'wholefeed' feasible/desirable? I wouldn't have thought so outside > of 'control' circumstances. How do you tell the difference between > wholefeed (containing all revisions of entries) and wholefeed > (containing only the latest)? > > Delete - yep, separate. As suggested in a recent thread, it would make > most sense to have delete mean "removed from view" rather than > "removed from existence". In which case it's only impact on the state > would be the change of an attribute rather than any structural > revision. Whoa, heavy; I'm not sure it's interesting to talk about what's in the set 'existence'; only what's in the set 'Atom Feed'. > fyi, Henry's done quite a bit of experimentation with state and entry > versioning modelling in OWL (in Bloged), though I haven't any links at > hand. Cool; if you come across them, would love to see them. Thanks! -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Nov 21 12:40:23 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA08735 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:40:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iALHTZx6010972; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 09:29:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iALHTZ1N010971; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 09:29:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from xbox.wkearney.com (xbox.wkearney.com [66.92.145.79]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iALHTX3J010931 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 09:29:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wkearney@syndic8.com) Received: from media (media.wkearney.com [192.168.12.32]) by xbox.wkearney.com (Postfix) with SMTP id CA0E7BC8B4 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:29:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <006f01c4cfef$a83b04b0$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> From: "Bill Kearney" Cc: References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> <00d801c4cf86$7b30a790$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> Subject: Re: PaceFeedState Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:29:28 -0500 Organization: http://www.ideaspace.net/users/wkearney/foaf.xrdf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > How you do this is implementation-specific; see below. All I'm really > suggesting is that Atom Feed Documents are in fact persistent (in that > there's a URI for the particular instance you're viewing); they can be > referred to by other Atom Feed Documents to reconstruct an Atom Feed. What are you suggesting a consuming entity will use as the identifier that leads to the feed? If it's a URL, as is done with RSS, then what are you suggesting subsequent requests using that same URL should use? > How hard is it to keep the last n feed documents you've published? How hard isn't as much of a question as is "why should I bother"? > Conceptually, for a feed called myfeed.atom, all you need to do is: > 1. extract the 'this' URI from myfeed.atom to $old > 2. create a feed document containing the new entries, with a 'this' URI > of $new What's "old" when the stream is immediately extracted from a live database of entries? A request of the URL from user A comprises entries a-f, an instant later it's a-g, seconds pass and it's now b-k. What's "old" and to whom? > > I'd be more inclined to want semantics on what kinds of ranges a > > source can provide. Be they date, numeric index or other forms. > > I considered a number of approaches like this, where you expose an > interface that clients can query for specific entries. However, a > significant number of users will not want to use a script, for both > performance and deployment considerations. Ah, so you're differentiating among sites that push data to static files, or have a construct that could be considered a 'static grouping' versus those being driven from a live database. I'm not sure it's a worthwhile differentiation. > As such, I wanted to have a system that doesn't require special > handling on the server side. But it does require something server side, doesn't it? The detection (or tracking) of a previous 'instance', moving that 'out of the way' and putting a rippling new ones into place. I don't fault the notion your proposing but suggest that if you're going to go through this much work then one might as well consider better negotiation semantics. > Nothing in the proposal precludes you from > layering in a more complex solution. OTOH, a script can easily handle > this approach if they keep a tiny bit of extra state (which 'this' > URI(s) an entry is associated with*) around. I'm inclined to think it'd be better to improve the situation overall instead of a piecemeal approach such as this. > * Alternatively, they could keep a list of entry IDs that the last N > Feed Documents are associated with; this doesn't require per-Entry > metadata, and wouldn't take as much room.** > > ** Or they could encode the entries a Feed Document is associated with > in the 'this' URI if they didn't want to keep this state at all; e.g., > link rel='this' href='http://www.example.com/entry;id1;id2;id3;id4' > This approach doesn't require any extra state. I'm unclear on what you consider to be necessary on the server and client sides to support your suggestion. It may be that clarifying the process some will make it more obvious. -Bill Kearney Syndic8.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Nov 21 14:33:49 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA16339 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:33:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iALJLC2B044669; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:21:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iALJLC4U044668; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:21:12 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from server0.24hostingnow.com (server0.24hostingnow.com [69.72.226.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iALJLCdk044636 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:21:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net) Received: from eetemad.student.princeton.edu ([140.180.146.72]) by server0.24hostingnow.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1CVxGj-00043D-Dg for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:21:07 -0500 Message-ID: <41A0DC32.2030706@inkedblade.net> Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:19:30 -0500 From: fantasai User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (X11/20041105) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Auto-Discovery and requiring rel="alternate" X-Enigmail-Version: 0.86.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-PopBeforeSMTPSenders: fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net,fantasai@inkedblade.net X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server0.24hostingnow.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - inkedblade.net Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I did a quick search on the archives here and didn't find any postings on the matter. I don't believe the auto-discovery spec should be requiring rel="alternate" on all auto-discovery links because it is not always the appropriate link type. http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/weblog/2004/linking-feeds/ ~fantasai From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Nov 21 15:54:32 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA22920 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:54:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iALKfPwE078964; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:41:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iALKfPgc078963; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:41:25 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.mnot.net (adsl-67-119-69-242.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iALKfD2p078900 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:41:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [10.0.1.43] (unknown [63.96.165.94]) by mail.mnot.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C0327280; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:41:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <006f01c4cfef$a83b04b0$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> <00d801c4cf86$7b30a790$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> <006f01c4cfef$a83b04b0$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham X-Face: }I;hHtiZ43-RK8s{or'?iELJ;!_Mt2|\hW'VcAn*UR#@;4p5@s},~+i=>p})B"gMK%m,`?|Cy>=P/om{?_\aOaPaDMK)TkU_b3]A85YU?A 3iYcf9##+Qu~e(m6w=ot[yfp1G)WXBYGcTM{!EWIB2n/%E@5PjJ_GXq(b2Fq0|#uL{ Subject: Re: PaceFeedState Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:41:12 -0800 To: "Bill Kearney" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Nov 21, 2004, at 9:29 AM, Bill Kearney wrote: >> How you do this is implementation-specific; see below. All I'm really >> suggesting is that Atom Feed Documents are in fact persistent (in that >> there's a URI for the particular instance you're viewing); they can be >> referred to by other Atom Feed Documents to reconstruct an Atom Feed. > > What are you suggesting a consuming entity will use as the identifier > that > leads to the feed? If it's a URL, as is done with RSS, then what are > you > suggesting subsequent requests using that same URL should use? I'm proposing that there be two kinds of resources that you work with to get the state of an abstract Atom feed; * A "Feed Resource" whose semantic is "I contain the most recent N entries of this feed." This is the URI that is commonly thought of as being the Atom feed's URI today; its content changes over time (much as in the same way that a page about the current weather in Baltimore will change). E.g., http://www.example.com/myfeed.atom * An "Atom Document Resource" whose semantic is "I contain the entries present in the feed at a particular time." This is a URI to allow people to get previous "snapshots" of the feed to reconstruct them; its content does NOT change over time (much as in the same way that a page about the weather in Baltimore on November 1st, 2004 doesn't change). E.g., http://www.example.com/2004/11/01/myfeed.atom When you get a Feed Resource, it contains a link[@rel='this']/@href that points to the Atom Document Resource for this particular Feed Document; that allows aggregators to know where its "permanent" URI is. It also contains a link[@rel='prev']/@href that points to the last Atom Document Resource published. So, a consumer can fetch a representation of the Feed Resource and compare the 'prev' URI in it to the last 'this' URI it saw. If they don't match, it can follow the 'prev' URI; if it hasn't seen *that* document's 'prev' URI, it can walk further backwards until it's covered all of the entries that have appeared in the feed since it last saw it. >> How hard is it to keep the last n feed documents you've published? > > How hard isn't as much of a question as is "why should I bother"? You don't have to, if you don't want to. Some people do. >> Conceptually, for a feed called myfeed.atom, all you need to do is: >> 1. extract the 'this' URI from myfeed.atom to $old >> 2. create a feed document containing the new entries, with a 'this' >> URI >> of $new > > What's "old" when the stream is immediately extracted from a live > database > of entries? A request of the URL from user A comprises entries a-f, an > instant later it's a-g, seconds pass and it's now b-k. What's "old" > and to > whom? If the feed content is truly dynamic, the URI for the Atom Document Resource could contain this information; see the ** suggestion in my last e-mail. For example, if you have a completely database-driven feed, and your exposed Atom feed document contains 10 entries, and you've published 1000 entries in total, the 'this' URI in your most recent Atom Document might be 'http://www.example.com/feeddb?entries=990-1000', and the 'prev' URI might be 'http://www.example.com/feeddb?entries=979-989'. That document, in turn, would be returned with a 'prev' URI of 'http://www.example.com/feeddb?entries=968-978' (You could, of course, overlap them too, if you want to). Someone else might come along and get a 'this' URI of 'http://www.example.com/feeddb?entries=991-1001' because you've added an entry in the meantime. That's OK; they'll get a 'prev' URI of 'http://www.example.com/feeddb?entries=980-990'. Note that this doesn't require you to keep all of the entries around; it just requires you to keep a counter of how many entries you've produced over time. If someone asks for entries that you no long have, you can 404 them (or, more properly, 410). >>> I'd be more inclined to want semantics on what kinds of ranges a >>> source can provide. Be they date, numeric index or other forms. >> >> I considered a number of approaches like this, where you expose an >> interface that clients can query for specific entries. However, a >> significant number of users will not want to use a script, for both >> performance and deployment considerations. > > Ah, so you're differentiating among sites that push data to static > files, or > have a construct that could be considered a 'static grouping' versus > those > being driven from a live database. I'm not sure it's a worthwhile > differentiation. Uhh... OK. I think you're making that differentiation; I did not. >> As such, I wanted to have a system that doesn't require special >> handling on the server side. > > But it does require something server side, doesn't it? The detection > (or > tracking) of a previous 'instance', moving that 'out of the way' and > putting > a rippling new ones into place. > > I don't fault the notion your proposing but suggest that if you're > going to > go through this much work then one might as well consider better > negotiation > semantics. I don't think it's a lot of work; it's quite simple. I'm very wary of defining query semantics; the use cases are an open set, and nailing them down will take a significant amount of time and effort. Similarly, negotiation is a notoriously difficult problem to get right. >> Nothing in the proposal precludes you from >> layering in a more complex solution. OTOH, a script can easily handle >> this approach if they keep a tiny bit of extra state (which 'this' >> URI(s) an entry is associated with*) around. > > I'm inclined to think it'd be better to improve the situation overall > instead of a piecemeal approach such as this. Can you substantiate that? Why is this a piecemeal approach? >> * Alternatively, they could keep a list of entry IDs that the last N >> Feed Documents are associated with; this doesn't require per-Entry >> metadata, and wouldn't take as much room.** >> >> ** Or they could encode the entries a Feed Document is associated with >> in the 'this' URI if they didn't want to keep this state at all; e.g., >> link rel='this' >> href='http://www.example.com/entry;id1;id2;id3;id4' >> This approach doesn't require any extra state. > > I'm unclear on what you consider to be necessary on the server and > client > sides to support your suggestion. It may be that clarifying the > process > some will make it more obvious. Hopefully, this mail will help. Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Nov 21 16:41:40 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA26435 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 16:41:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iALLXTZD010522; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:33:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iALLXTYB010521; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:33:29 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.143.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iALLXTBB010392 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:33:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DCCDB8 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:33:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net (spike.verity.com [10.69.100.102]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id iALLXKKB011259 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:33:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:33:19 -0800 From: Walter Underwood To: atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Subject: Re: PaceFeedState Message-ID: <146A63AEFA3CBCF944FCFDAE@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> <00d801c4cf86$7b30a790$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> <006f01c4cfef$a83b04b0$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Mac OS X) X-Face: 7Vqnb4fOVKsO)3JuUXKxR\M]:e"u'eG`Zue*.((7i7%P%rvZgS[j~95@C-s3i (s!e;OX`'Pngn5lq*Td}#,"5!^jm(65.";[GPtD^c(/1TtMe&wYO;_}\!}fRkxs%q#Jk 5E^BlXwR+8}qOwy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On Sunday, November 21, 2004 12:41 PM -0800 Mark Nottingham wrote: > I'm proposing that there be two kinds of resources that you work with > to get the state of an abstract Atom feed; > > * A "Feed Resource" whose semantic is "I contain the most recent N entries > of this feed." [...] > > * An "Atom Document Resource" whose semantic is "I contain the entries > present in the feed at a particular time." [...] We could call these "current state" and "historical state". wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect, Verity From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Nov 21 16:59:28 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA27325 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 16:59:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iALLoeoj020555; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:50:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iALLoek0020554; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:50:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from xbox.wkearney.com (xbox.wkearney.com [66.92.145.79]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iALLocPT020493 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:50:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wkearney@syndic8.com) Received: from media (media.wkearney.com [192.168.12.32]) by xbox.wkearney.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 19E03BC8B4 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 16:50:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <00d601c4d014$23438f50$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> From: "Bill Kearney" Cc: References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> <00d801c4cf86$7b30a790$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> <006f01c4cfef$a83b04b0$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> Subject: Re: PaceFeedState Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 16:49:42 -0500 Organization: http://www.ideaspace.net/users/wkearney/foaf.xrdf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I'm proposing that there be two kinds of resources that you work with > to get the state of an abstract Atom feed; > * A "Feed Resource" whose semantic is "I contain the most recent N > entries of this feed." This is the URI that is commonly thought of as > being the Atom feed's URI today; its content changes over time (much as > in the same way that a page about the current weather in Baltimore will > change). E.g., http://www.example.com/myfeed.atom > > * An "Atom Document Resource" whose semantic is "I contain the entries > present in the feed at a particular time." This is a URI to allow > people to get previous "snapshots" of the feed to reconstruct them; its > content does NOT change over time (much as in the same way that a page > about the weather in Baltimore on November 1st, 2004 doesn't change). > E.g., http://www.example.com/2004/11/01/myfeed.atom Ah, that sheds some light on it. I'd wonder if calling the latter anything with the word "Feed" in it isn't more trouble than it's worth? I'm all for the idea of a way to extract 'wider' ranges of content but am troubled by the inevitable confusion that calling it a "feed" might bring. It's a collection of entries, ones that /might/ have been part of a range of entries that might have been grouped in a previous feed. But I wouldn't call them feeds. > When you get a Feed Resource, it contains a link[@rel='this']/@href > that points to the Atom Document Resource for this particular Feed > Document; Being required or optional? > that allows aggregators to know where its "permanent" URI is. > It also contains a link[@rel='prev']/@href that points to the last Atom > Document Resource published. Well, I'm not sure I see the average 'feed-like' consumption act needing such a thing. > So, a consumer can fetch a representation of the Feed Resource and > compare the 'prev' URI in it to the last 'this' URI it saw. If they > don't match, it can follow the 'prev' URI; if it hasn't seen *that* > document's 'prev' URI, it can walk further backwards until it's covered > all of the entries that have appeared in the feed since it last saw it. Oh you ARE the optimist aren't you? I do like the idea you're suggesting but it sort of seems like a lot to ask. Just getting developers to break out of the "one GET to feed it ALL" will be a challenge. Asking them to walk over prev links, while a good idea, seems pretty unlikely. I'd favor use of some sort of 'range' options over the prev/next idea. It feels like more developers would grasp the latter instead of multiple calls traversing it backwards. That and I can envision source providers being more inclined to allow range retrieval much more readily that some sort of manifest of feed entry 'groupings' that would use prev/next. > >> How hard is it to keep the last n feed documents you've published? > > How hard isn't as much of a question as is "why should I bother"? > You don't have to, if you don't want to. Some people do. It's not me so much as the prototypical lazy site and/or client tool developer. Now I *could* see using something like what you talk about from Syndic8. We've got 3 years (nearly 1TB) of RSS data in archives. I could well imagine publishing prev/next groupings of the items as we saw them emerge over time. But that's only because we took the trouble to actually track that sort of thing. And even then the grouping are only based on when we grabbed the items, not directly on any sort of site grouping. I'm not sure I could see individual sites bothering to do this or benefitting from it even if they did. > > What's "old" when the stream is immediately extracted from a live > > database of entries? > > If the feed content is truly dynamic, the URI for the Atom Document > Resource could contain this information; see the ** suggestion in my > last e-mail. > > For example, if you have a completely database-driven feed, and your > exposed Atom feed document contains 10 entries, and you've published > 1000 entries in total, the 'this' URI in your most recent Atom Document > might be 'http://www.example.com/feeddb?entries=990-1000', and the > 'prev' URI might be 'http://www.example.com/feeddb?entries=979-989'. > That document, in turn, would be returned with a 'prev' URI of > 'http://www.example.com/feeddb?entries=968-978' (You could, of course, > overlap them too, if you want to). Hmmm, I start getting worried when I see parameters in URLs and how their semantics might be 'assumed' by folks. Just as dates or integers in namespace URI aren't versions. Not to mention i18n issues of calling them 'entries' in a URL. If you want to publish metadata then do so without requiring special knowledge in a URL. > Someone else might come along and get a 'this' URI of > 'http://www.example.com/feeddb?entries=991-1001' because you've added > an entry in the meantime. That's OK; they'll get a 'prev' URI of > 'http://www.example.com/feeddb?entries=980-990'. No, I just can't see this being a good idea for something called a "feed". Yes, it'd be good for an archive extractor. Or local client store 'catch up'. What also concerns me is that many feeds aren't linear. They aren't comprised of items in any sort of numerical progression. At least not from the perspective of something that would lend itself to easy numeric range indicators. A feed driven from a category, for example, might have a pretty wide range of entry 'numbers' from a subset of the main DB such that catching up on it wouldn't work with a range parameter based on entry items. There'd be 'holes' in the range. This is where we get into needing better query semantics. It seems like some sort of capabilites statement would HAVE to be made about what sort of reverse grouping or ranging a site has to offer. If a site wanted to offer what you're suggesting then it would seem like a good idea to make it clear. I could see a degree of extensibility being needed here. > > Ah, so you're differentiating among sites that push data to static > > files, or have a construct that could be considered a 'static grouping' versus > > those being driven from a live database. I'm not sure it's a worthwhile > > differentiation. > > Uhh... OK. I think you're making that differentiation; I did not. Well, you've shed more light on the two different things you're calling a feed, that clarifies things somewhat. I still think it's less than a good idea though. > I don't think it's a lot of work; it's quite simple. I'm very wary of > defining query semantics; the use cases are an open set, and nailing > them down will take a significant amount of time and effort. Similarly, > negotiation is a notoriously difficult problem to get right. TANSTAAFL. What's needed is a range query. Managed on the server side through your use of 'ranged URLs' and client-side through special knowledge that it indicates a range. Although as you suggest it's only whatever the server considers the "previous" set of entries. I'd wonder how the requesting client would know how many it includes? > >> Nothing in the proposal precludes you from > >> layering in a more complex solution. OTOH, a script can easily handle > >> this approach if they keep a tiny bit of extra state (which 'this' > >> URI(s) an entry is associated with*) around. > > > > I'm inclined to think it'd be better to improve the situation overall > > instead of a piecemeal approach such as this. > > Can you substantiate that? Why is this a piecemeal approach? You made the point yourself, what's needed is a robust querying mechanism. Your suggestion, while novel, falls short of that. I'd wonder whether going halfway is worth it. > >> * Alternatively, they could keep a list of entry IDs that the last N > >> Feed Documents are associated with; this doesn't require per-Entry > >> metadata, and wouldn't take as much room.** > >> > >> ** Or they could encode the entries a Feed Document is associated with > >> in the 'this' URI if they didn't want to keep this state at all; e.g., > >> link rel='this' > >> href='http://www.example.com/entry;id1;id2;id3;id4' > >> This approach doesn't require any extra state. But just makes for hideous URLs. Consider the base URL might already be a mish-mash of parameters to the data. Tacking stuff like that onto the URL seems like a bad idea. > Hopefully, this mail will help. Yes, somewhat. I now understand you're talking about two different things. One being a feed of entries and the other being a way to extract a wider range of entries. I can see what you're trying to accomplish. I'd be more inclined to want some sort of query semantics that let me ask the site what ways it offers for obtaining 'back content'. And then using those semantics to request manifests of the entries for subsequent retrieval. If a site has tracked them in groups of previous feed publications then fine. But I'd also like to have the ability to do better range requesting, most probably by timestamp but I'd sure others might want something different. Imagine, rather than just http for prev how about torrent or ed2k requests? Or redirection to an archiving service or 'nearer' data store? -Bill Kearney From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Nov 21 17:00:24 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA27426 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:00:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iALLqi0l021886; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:52:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iALLqiah021885; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:52:44 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iALLqhGh021859 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:52:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.9]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CVzdR-0006bM-Gs; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 21:52:41 +0000 Message-ID: <41A10E2A.2080901@franklinmint.fm> Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 16:52:42 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham CC: Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceFeedState References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Nottingham wrote: > > I've made a proposal to fill in the "Managing Feed State" section; > comments / suggestions appreciated. > > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceFeedState Versioned Atom Feeds sounds like good practice. +1. link[@rel="wholefeed"] has a lot of overlap with the protocol. You could say it's a representation of a collection of entries that could grow extremely large. It's unlikely that clients or servers will want to serve that up all at once in public. Take a look at PaceEntryQuery for other approaches to this problem. I don't know where the cutoff is, but, at some point, Atom servers will have to "expose the raw data behind the blog to an application."[0] Robert Sayre [0] http://bitworking.org/news/Proposed_changes_to_draft_gregorio_07#X3 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Nov 21 22:14:51 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA24003 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:14:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAM328j2010840; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:02:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAM328Ae010839; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:02:08 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAM327ZG010679 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:02:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from quark (58.80-202-95.nextgentel.com [80.202.95.58]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0721F1A1F; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 04:02:08 +0100 (MET) To: fantasai Cc: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: Auto-Discovery and requiring rel="alternate" References: <41A0DC32.2030706@inkedblade.net> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 04:04:01 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <41A0DC32.2030706@inkedblade.net> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.60 (Win32, build 7321) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:19:30 -0500, fantasai wrote: > I did a quick search on the archives here and didn't find any > postings on the matter. I don't believe the auto-discovery spec > should be requiring rel="alternate" on all auto-discovery links > because it is not always the appropriate link type. If I understand you correctly, the paces PaceOptionalAlternateLink[1] and/or PaceContentOrLink[2] will take care of this in a future draft. ____ [1] [2] -- Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- http://virtuelvis.com/quark/ «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Nov 21 23:27:58 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA29277 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 23:27:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAM4F9QM011052; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 20:15:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAM4F96E011050; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 20:15:09 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.mnot.net (adsl-67-119-69-242.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAM4F4Zi010944 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 20:15:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [10.0.1.46] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) by mail.mnot.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 549D9728E; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 20:15:10 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <00d601c4d014$23438f50$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> <00d801c4cf86$7b30a790$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> <006f01c4cfef$a83b04b0$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> <00d601c4d014$23438f50$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <191205A0-3C3D-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham X-Face: }I;hHtiZ43-RK8s{or'?iELJ;!_Mt2|\hW'VcAn*UR#@;4p5@s},~+i=>p})B"gMK%m,`?|Cy>=P/om{?_\aOaPaDMK)TkU_b3]A85YU?A 3iYcf9##+Qu~e(m6w=ot[yfp1G)WXBYGcTM{!EWIB2n/%E@5PjJ_GXq(b2Fq0|#uL{ Subject: Re: PaceFeedState Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 20:15:09 -0800 To: "Bill Kearney" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Nov 21, 2004, at 1:49 PM, Bill Kearney wrote: > I'd wonder if calling the latter anything with the word "Feed" in it > isn't > more trouble than it's worth? I'm flexible on terminology, as long as it makes sense (Walter had some proposals). >> When you get a Feed Resource, it contains a link[@rel='this']/@href >> that points to the Atom Document Resource for this particular Feed >> Document; > > Being required or optional? Optional; the proposal makes this a SHOULD. > Oh you ARE the optimist aren't you? I do like the idea you're > suggesting > but it sort of seems like a lot to ask. Just getting developers to > break > out of the "one GET to feed it ALL" will be a challenge. Asking them > to > walk over prev links, while a good idea, seems pretty unlikely. I'd > favor > use of some sort of 'range' options over the prev/next idea. It feels > like > more developers would grasp the latter instead of multiple calls > traversing > it backwards. That and I can envision source providers being more > inclined > to allow range retrieval much more readily that some sort of manifest > of > feed entry 'groupings' that would use prev/next. GETting multiple resources' representations didn't stop the IMG tag from taking off in HTML, and I don't see how it's a significant challenge here. Rather than presupposing what developers are going to do, I'd rather get feedback from those people directly. I don't dispute that this calls for some (manageable) work on the client side. I think that is vastly preferable to requiring support for query on the server side; there will be many more feeds than aggregators, if Atom is successful. BTW, are you proposing that every request to the server for the feed's state is a query? Otherwise, I don't see how you can avoid multiple requests when reconstructing feed state (one to get the latest entries, at least one to get the entries you missed). > I'm not sure > I could see individual sites bothering to do this or benefitting from > it > even if they did. If I publish a feed, I want my consumers to see the entire information channel, not portions of it. That's a huge benefit. >> For example, if you have a completely database-driven feed, and your >> exposed Atom feed document contains 10 entries, and you've published >> 1000 entries in total, the 'this' URI in your most recent Atom >> Document >> might be 'http://www.example.com/feeddb?entries=990-1000', and the >> 'prev' URI might be 'http://www.example.com/feeddb?entries=979-989'. >> That document, in turn, would be returned with a 'prev' URI of >> 'http://www.example.com/feeddb?entries=968-978' (You could, of course, >> overlap them too, if you want to). > > Hmmm, I start getting worried when I see parameters in URLs and how > their > semantics might be 'assumed' by folks. Just as dates or integers in > namespace URI aren't versions. Not to mention i18n issues of calling > them > 'entries' in a URL. If you want to publish metadata then do so without > requiring special knowledge in a URL. Perhaps you've misunderstood the proposal. It does not break URI opacity; the client is not required or encouraged to interpret the semantics of the URI; it's only interpreted by the server (the same party that issues it). This has the benefit that from the server side, it can be used as a query function if necessary, but the client doesn't need to understand the query's semantics, and, more importantly, no standardisation of query semantics is necessary. > I'd wonder how the > requesting client would know how many it includes? Why does it need to? >> Hopefully, this mail will help. > > Yes, somewhat. I now understand you're talking about two different > things. > One being a feed of entries and the other being a way to extract a > wider > range of entries. I can see what you're trying to accomplish. I wonder; I'm not sure how to interpret that explanation. > I'd be more inclined to want some sort of query semantics that let me > ask > the site what ways it offers for obtaining 'back content'. And then > using > those semantics to request manifests of the entries for subsequent > retrieval. If a site has tracked them in groups of previous feed > publications then fine. But I'd also like to have the ability to do > better > range requesting, most probably by timestamp but I'd sure others might > want > something different. > > Imagine, rather than just http for prev how about torrent or ed2k > requests? > Or redirection to an archiving service or 'nearer' data store? You clearly would like to do many ambitious things with Atom. That's great, but we need to be realistic about what we can do in this effort while still differentiating Atom from RSS. Both of these approaches can satisfy the requirement to reconstruct a feed's state. The design I've proposed is simple, robust, leverages the Web and delivers needed functionality quickly; looking at similar efforts in the past (SQL, XML Query, RDF Query, conneg, etc.), we can reasonably expect that getting query right is going to take a long time and a fair amount of iteration, and it's going to be much more complex. Thanks, -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 22 01:22:08 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA06912 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 01:22:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAM6BWvF043567; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:11:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAM6BWsI043566; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:11:32 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAM6BQ8e042740 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:11:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:53:39 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:53:42 +1100 Subject: Re: PaceFeedState From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 22/11/04 7:41 AM, "Mark Nottingham" wrote: > * A "Feed Resource" whose semantic is "I contain the most recent N > entries of this feed." This is the URI that is commonly thought of as > being the Atom feed's URI today; its content changes over time (much as > in the same way that a page about the current weather in Baltimore will > change). E.g., http://www.example.com/myfeed.atom > > * An "Atom Document Resource" whose semantic is "I contain the entries > present in the feed at a particular time." This is a URI to allow > people to get previous "snapshots" of the feed to reconstruct them; its > content does NOT change over time (much as in the same way that a page > about the weather in Baltimore on November 1st, 2004 doesn't change). > E.g., http://www.example.com/2004/11/01/myfeed.atom I believe these are good (as in distinct) definitions and deserve to be in the spec somewhere, possibly refined. I'm not so sure about Atom Document Resource being "snapshots" ... does this mean that I'd need separate and distinct ADR's if I edit an entry (but have published no new entries)? e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 22 01:22:09 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA06917 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 01:22:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAM6BR8p043451; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:11:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAM6BR8W043450; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:11:27 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAM6BQwY042741 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:11:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:53:42 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:53:45 +1100 Subject: Re: Auto-Discovery and requiring rel="alternate" From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <41A0DC32.2030706@inkedblade.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 22/11/04 5:19 AM, "fantasai" wrote: > I did a quick search on the archives here and didn't find any > postings on the matter. I don't believe the auto-discovery spec > should be requiring rel="alternate" on all auto-discovery links > because it is not always the appropriate link type. > > http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/weblog/2004/linking-feeds/ Are you referring to to linking from a html page to an atom feed, or vice versa? For the case of html page --> feed, I too think "alternate" can be a misnomer. For the main blog page which shows the latest set of entries and is regularly updated with new entries, one appropriate relationship is indeed "alternate". However, for a given entry html page, the "alternate" would be an atom document containing that entry, not some other resource which as time marches on is less likely to contain that entry. I would suggest @rel="feed" to refer to the "Feed Resource" (per Mark Nottingham's definitions), and optionally including "alternate" (space delimited) if linking to the Feed Resource from the regularly updated recent posts html page. Thus, there might be this on the "recent posts" html page... ... and this on an individual post page: ... and possibly also this on that same individual html post page: where the @href references an Atom Document where the root element is . e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 22 02:11:57 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA18476 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 02:11:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAM73gJj013498; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 23:03:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAM73gor013497; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 23:03:42 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from server0.24hostingnow.com (server0.24hostingnow.com [69.72.226.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAM73bis013360 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 23:03:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net) Received: from eetemad.student.princeton.edu ([140.180.146.72]) by server0.24hostingnow.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1CW8ET-00020z-Hc for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 02:03:29 -0500 Message-ID: <41A18F44.7030901@inkedblade.net> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 02:03:32 -0500 From: fantasai User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (X11/20041105) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Auto-Discovery and requiring rel="alternate" References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.86.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-PopBeforeSMTPSenders: fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net,fantasai@inkedblade.net X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server0.24hostingnow.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - inkedblade.net Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Scheid wrote: > On 22/11/04 5:19 AM, "fantasai" wrote: > >>I did a quick search on the archives here and didn't find any >>postings on the matter. I don't believe the auto-discovery spec >>should be requiring rel="alternate" on all auto-discovery links >>because it is not always the appropriate link type. >> >>http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/weblog/2004/linking-feeds/ > > Are you referring to to linking from a html page to an atom feed, or vice > versa? The former. > For the case of html page --> feed, I too think "alternate" can be a > misnomer. For the main blog page which shows the latest set of entries and > is regularly updated with new entries, one appropriate relationship is > indeed "alternate". However, for a given entry html page, the "alternate" > would be an atom document containing that entry, not some other resource > which as time marches on is less likely to contain that entry. My point was more that there are pages out there that link to a feed that is an alternate for /another/ page, and therefore the rel="alternate" semantic does not apply to that link. (i.e. there's nothing wrong with linking to the feed, but linking to it as an "alternate" is wrong.) > I would suggest @rel="feed" to refer to the "Feed Resource" (per Mark > Nottingham's definitions), and optionally including "alternate" (space > delimited) if linking to the Feed Resource from the regularly updated recent > posts html page. Having rel="feed" would solve the problem of abusing the protocol segment of a URI to flag a link as pointing to a feed. However, I'm not sure that it's really a link type -- it seems more to be metadata on the content type than anything else. Also, what is Mark Nottingham's definition of "Feed Resource"? (Searching Google for "feed resource" nottingham brings up nothing relevant.) ~fantasai From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 22 04:07:19 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA03868 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 04:07:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAM8uAjL046374; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 00:56:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAM8uAia046371; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 00:56:10 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAM8u9RL046319 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 00:56:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Mon, 22 Nov 2004 19:56:05 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 19:56:07 +1100 Subject: Re: Auto-Discovery and requiring rel="alternate" From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <41A18F44.7030901@inkedblade.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 22/11/04 6:03 PM, "fantasai" wrote: > Eric Scheid wrote: >> On 22/11/04 5:19 AM, "fantasai" wrote: >> >> For the case of html page --> feed, I too think "alternate" can be a >> misnomer. For the main blog page which shows the latest set of entries and >> is regularly updated with new entries, one appropriate relationship is >> indeed "alternate". However, for a given entry html page, the "alternate" >> would be an atom document containing that entry, not some other resource >> which as time marches on is less likely to contain that entry. > > My point was more that there are pages out there that link to a feed > that is an alternate for /another/ page, and therefore the rel="alternate" > semantic does not apply to that link. (i.e. there's nothing wrong with > linking to the feed, but linking to it as an "alternate" is wrong.) I think I shall have to resign myself to violently agreeing with you on this point. [1] > Also, what is Mark Nottingham's definition of "Feed Resource"? > (Searching Google for "feed resource" nottingham brings up nothing relevant.) google might well not have seen it yet ... it was only a few messages back http://imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11706.html e. [1] That is not a typo. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 22 04:20:24 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA04552 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 04:20:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAM97UQL058895; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 01:07:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAM97UxJ058891; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 01:07:30 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAM97TFl058701 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 01:07:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 80993 invoked by uid 17064); 22 Nov 2004 09:07:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.230.114]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 22 Nov 2004 09:07:19 -0000 In-Reply-To: References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> <1f2ed5cd0411210211229bf630@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: "'Atom WG'" , atom-protocol@imc.org From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceFeedState Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:07:12 +0100 To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iAM97TFl058881 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit BlogEd [1] is a thick client blog editor. I am currently writing a link from bloged to Roller [2] using the MetaWeblog API. Being able to get the complete feed state is very important for a tool such as BlogEd if it is to correctly synchronize the state of its entries with those on the server. To illustrate this imagine the following situation: 1. Joe Blogger writes a few entries E1, E2, E3 in his blog editor 2. Joe Blogger publishes these on the remote server as RE1, RE2 and RE3 3. The next day Joe goes on a month long trip around Europe without his computer and writes up lots of cool blogs from internet cafés using the Roller web interface. These entries called RE4, RE5, RE6, RE7, ... 4. During the trip Joe may not just add new entries, but update the state of already written ones, such as RE1 to RE1version2 5. Back home after his trip Joe would like to synchronize the state of his blog editor with what he wrote in Roller, so that he can continue to use the advanced features of his thick client interface. I think at stage 5 Joe would be very disappointed if a few of his entries went missing because the feed did not keep a full history of the changes to the entries. Even more, Joe would probably like to keep up with this change history to any of the entries, so that he can himself keep an idea on how his entries changed over time. I think this illustrates very clearly why keeping feed state is very important. With the MetaWeblog interface I may be able to get this information, but there really is not guarantee that I will be able to do it. Henry Story [1] https://bloged.dev.java.net/ [2] http://www.rollerweblogger.org/ On 21 Nov 2004, at 17:46, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> "Reconstructing Feed State", seems to me to be expecting rather a lot >> of the client, to remember every change and every feed head. > > It doesn't have to remember every change; it just has to remember the > last feed 'this' URI that it saw, so it can walk its way backwards to > it. > >> I wouldn't have though a warning should be needed in its absence. >> Under >> what circumstances would the client actually want to reconstruct feed >> state? My guess is that would fall outside 80/20 applications. > > Most aggregators do it today; they're just sloppy about it (because > they don't have a mechanism like this). To me, the most boring > aggregators are those built into browsers that don't keep state. To > me, the warning is absolutely critical; it raises the guarantee you > get with Atom, and differentiates it from RSS substantially. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 22 06:51:58 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA21537 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 06:51:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAMBfjdc023241; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 03:41:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAMBfjmN023240; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 03:41:45 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAMBfe7E023073 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 03:41:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from quark (58.80-202-95.nextgentel.com [80.202.95.58]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 372D15647; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 12:41:36 +0100 (MET) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 12:43:30 +0100 To: fantasai Subject: Re: Auto-Discovery and requiring rel="alternate" Cc: Atom-Syntax References: <41A18F44.7030901@inkedblade.net> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <41A18F44.7030901@inkedblade.net> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.60 (Win32, build 7321) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 02:03:32 -0500, fantasai wrote: > My point was more that there are pages out there that link to a feed > that is an alternate for /another/ page, and therefore the > rel="alternate" semantic does not apply to that link. (i.e. there's > nothing wrong with linking to the feed, but linking to it as an > "alternate" is wrong.) I agree wholeheartedly, and have actually discussed this exact issue on several occasions before. I think the 'alternate' term is wrong in two scenarios: - When the referenced resource is the exact same resource as you're looking at (e.g. 'this'). - When the referenced resource is something completely different, only related to the resource you're looking at (e.g. 'related'). Alternate Atom documents should be in alternative formats, languages, encodings, etc., but the content should be the same. If the content, format, language, encoding, etc., are all the same, the resource is not alternative but the one and only. > Having rel="feed" would solve the problem of abusing the protocol segment > of a URI to flag a link as pointing to a feed. Good point. -- Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- http://virtuelvis.com/quark/ «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 22 09:37:58 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA02926 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:37:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAMEPl7g049776; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 06:25:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAMEPlsU049775; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 06:25:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from xbox.wkearney.com (xbox.wkearney.com [66.92.145.79]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAMEPf1u049647 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 06:25:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wkearney@syndic8.com) Received: from media (media.wkearney.com [192.168.12.32]) by xbox.wkearney.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 01F95BC8B4 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:25:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <015101c4d09f$23019420$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> From: "Bill Kearney" To: References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> <00d801c4cf86$7b30a790$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> <006f01c4cfef$a83b04b0$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> <00d601c4d014$23438f50$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> <191205A0-3C3D-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> Subject: Re: PaceFeedState Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:25:36 -0500 Organization: http://www.ideaspace.net/users/wkearney/foaf.xrdf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I'd wonder if calling the latter anything with the word "Feed" in it > > isn't more trouble than it's worth? > > I'm flexible on terminology, as long as it makes sense (Walter had some > proposals). Good. I'm for the idea of making reuse of the code for handling entries, be they individual, feeds or larger collections. I just get nervous when terminologies for something as popular and misunderstood as "feeds" are mixed up. > >> When you get a Feed Resource, it contains a link[@rel='this']/@href > >> that points to the Atom Document Resource for this particular Feed > >> Document; > > > > Being required or optional? > > Optional; the proposal makes this a SHOULD. If the major players at the outset support the idea of publishing a URL in a feed (in the RSS sense) that would directly retrieve that set of entries then I'd certainly support the idea. It would be a tremendous improvement over the current situation in RSS. I'm not sure how many tools that currently produce feeds as static documents will be able to do this (let alone desire doing so). Some tools, like MT are database-driven but depend on rendering to static files for delivery. This is good thing for saving server CPU cycles upon consumption but less than ideal for finer-grained activities. > GETting multiple resources' representations didn't stop the IMG tag > from taking off in HTML, Ummm, that had much more to do with HTML view controls rather than anything else. The examples are not the same and you doubtless know it. The use of an HTML control fobs off responsibility from the application. The idea of multiple calls for entry data is quite different and requires a much more active role on the part of the application itself. > I don't dispute that this calls for some (manageable) work on the > client side. I think that is vastly preferable to requiring support for > query on the server side; there will be many more feeds than > aggregators, if Atom is successful. So which is it? Client or Server side work? It seems to flip back and forth here. Both sides will (and should) require more effort than they're doing now. > BTW, are you proposing that every request to the server for the feed's > state is a query? Otherwise, I don't see how you can avoid multiple > requests when reconstructing feed state (one to get the latest entries, > at least one to get the entries you missed). Of course not every request. Although a GREAT many feeds are dynamically driven so it really wouldn't be much different for them. As for multiple requests, please, what sense of false economy are you talking about here? ALL of this is going to require multiple requests and getting that behavior integrated into aggregator programs will be a GOOD THING. As to how many requests and what is retrieved is a matter for discussion. > If I publish a feed, I want my consumers to see the entire information > channel, not portions of it. That's a huge benefit. I'd suggest "we" represent more of the edge-case group than most. > > Hmmm, I start getting worried when I see parameters in URLs and how their > > semantics might be 'assumed' by folks. Just as dates or integers in > > namespace URI aren't versions. Not to mention i18n issues of calling them > > 'entries' in a URL. If you want to publish metadata then do so without > > requiring special knowledge in a URL. > > Perhaps you've misunderstood the proposal. It does not break URI > opacity; the client is not required or encouraged to interpret the > semantics of the URI; it's only interpreted by the server (the same > party that issues it). This has the benefit that from the server side, > it can be used as a query function if necessary, but the client doesn't > need to understand the query's semantics, and, more importantly, no > standardisation of query semantics is necessary. Wording to this effect would be a crucial part of any spec that emerged. > > I'd wonder how the > > requesting client would know how many it includes? > > Why does it need to? Oh, how about cell phones? Or other resource deprived sitautions? > > Imagine, rather than just http for prev how about torrent or ed2k > > requests? > > Or redirection to an archiving service or 'nearer' data store? > > You clearly would like to do many ambitious things with Atom. That's > great, but we need to be realistic about what we can do in this effort > while still differentiating Atom from RSS. Your idea of realistic obviously differs. I'm not suggesting anything outrageously complicated. I'm simply suggesting that if we're going to get into the idea of retreiving back content for a feed-like instance then it might benefit from more extensibility. > Both of these approaches can satisfy the requirement to reconstruct a > feed's state. Again, what you're talking about is not a feed in the current sense. It's perhaps better described as "a site's range of entries previously published in what may have been multiple feed-like instances". I stress this to make the point of avoiding things like RSS for newsfeeds versus RSS for site indexes. The former being what most folks consider a "feed" and the latter being something like what you're suggesting, but in fragmented sections. > The design I've proposed is simple, robust, leverages the > Web and delivers needed functionality quickly; looking at similar > efforts in the past (SQL, XML Query, RDF Query, conneg, etc.), we can > reasonably expect that getting query right is going to take a long time > and a fair amount of iteration, and it's going to be much more complex. Quickly now versus lacking in extensibility is what troubles me. -Bill Kearney From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 22 09:39:22 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA03015 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:39:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAMEXZCm052752; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 06:33:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAMEXZm6052751; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 06:33:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAMEXZiv052745 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 06:33:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 24575 invoked by uid 17064); 22 Nov 2004 14:33:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.140.47]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 22 Nov 2004 14:33:34 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> <00d801c4cf86$7b30a790$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> <006f01c4cfef$a83b04b0$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=Apple-Mail-24-420241296 Message-Id: <7A2CA095-3C93-11D9-8B7F-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceFeedState: UML model Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 15:33:29 +0100 To: Mark Nottingham , "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-24-420241296 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +1 I like the idea. I had modeled something similar in my August OWL model [1]. There I had made a feed a pair pointing to a head Entry and a set of entries. Thinking about it a bit more now, and incorporating some of Mark's points, I would make the Feed a document (foaf:Document perhaps?) that can be classified [2] into two exclusive and complimentary groups: Dynamic Documents and Static documents - Dynamic documents are document resources that do change their content a lot over time. These would have very short range http expires headers. Documents such as search results, what we usually think of as feeds, and newspaper front pages are usually such documents. - Static documents are much more RESTful (so to speak): they never change and therefore can be cached much more easily: These resource usually have an HTTP expires header set way far out in the future. Examples of such documents would be archives of news stories. These documents try as best as they can to follow the motto "cool URI's don't change" --Apple-Mail-24-420241296 Content-Type: image/jpeg; x-mac-hide-extension=yes; x-unix-mode=0644; name="Feed-model-2004-11-22.jpg" Content-Disposition: inline; filename=Feed-model-2004-11-22.jpg Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wBDABEMDQ8NCxEPDg8TEhEVGiscGhgYGjUmKB8rPzdCQT43 PDtFTmNURUleSzs8VnZXXmdqb3BvQ1N6g3lsgmNtb2v/2wBDARITExoXGjMcHDNrRzxHa2tra2tr a2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2v/wAARCAGVAdsDASIA AhEBAxEB/8QAHwAAAQUBAQEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtRAAAgEDAwIEAwUFBAQA AAF9AQIDAAQRBRIhMUEGE1FhByJxFDKBkaEII0KxwRVS0fAkM2JyggkKFhcYGRolJicoKSo0NTY3 ODk6Q0RFRkdISUpTVFVWV1hZWmNkZWZnaGlqc3R1dnd4eXqDhIWGh4iJipKTlJWWl5iZmqKjpKWm p6ipqrKztLW2t7i5usLDxMXGx8jJytLT1NXW19jZ2uHi4+Tl5ufo6erx8vP09fb3+Pn6/8QAHwEA AwEBAQEBAQEBAQAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtREAAgECBAQDBAcFBAQAAQJ3AAECAxEEBSEx 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ooooAKKKKACiiigD/9k= --Apple-Mail-24-420241296 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This distinction can then be applied to Feeds. A Feed is a Document that has a header and a list (set, or whatever) of Entries. It also has a number of Link objects, represented as association classes [3] in the UML above: - a Link that points to the the Dynamic Feed document which is the *start* of the feed. This document is the one that is usually considered to be the feed. - a Link that points to the *next* newest feed document, which contains the next entry states in increasing age. This is always a Static feed. - a Link that points to the previous Feed document. This can either be a static feed or a dynamic feed document. If the previous document is a Static document then it points to the same document as the *start* link) We can now understand some of the confusion. Usually when people speak of a Feed, they mean the Dynamic feed document. This is the one that has a URL that people drag into their feed reader. The Dynamic Feed usually points to a Static Feed document, which in turn points to another Static Feed document. Each of these static feed documents represent the archives of the Feed. Since static feed documents don't change, it follows that they will also represent a history both of the entries, but also of the changes to these entries. Would you say Mark, that the above model is a good representation of your proposal? Henry Story [1] http://bblfish.net/work/atom-owl/2004-08-12/ blogexample.html#entry.2004-08-12-2035.n3 [2] Martin Fowler, "UML Distilled, Second Edition" chapter 6, "Multiple and Dynamic Classification" p. 82 [3] Martin Fowler, "UML Distilled, Second Edition", chapter 6, "Association Class" p. 98 On 21 Nov 2004, at 21:41, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > I'm proposing that there be two kinds of resources that you work with > to get the state of an abstract Atom feed; > > * A "Feed Resource" whose semantic is "I contain the most recent N > entries of this feed." This is the URI that is commonly thought of as > being the Atom feed's URI today; its content changes over time (much > as in the same way that a page about the current weather in Baltimore > will change). E.g., http://www.example.com/myfeed.atom > > * An "Atom Document Resource" whose semantic is "I contain the entries > present in the feed at a particular time." This is a URI to allow > people to get previous "snapshots" of the feed to reconstruct them; > its content does NOT change over time (much as in the same way that a > page about the weather in Baltimore on November 1st, 2004 doesn't > change). E.g., http://www.example.com/2004/11/01/myfeed.atom > > When you get a Feed Resource, it contains a link[@rel='this']/@href > that points to the Atom Document Resource for this particular Feed > Document; that allows aggregators to know where its "permanent" URI > is. It also contains a link[@rel='prev']/@href that points to the last > Atom Document Resource published. > > So, a consumer can fetch a representation of the Feed Resource and > compare the 'prev' URI in it to the last 'this' URI it saw. If they > don't match, it can follow the 'prev' URI; if it hasn't seen *that* > document's 'prev' URI, it can walk further backwards until it's > covered all of the entries that have appeared in the feed since it > last saw it. --Apple-Mail-24-420241296-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 22 09:48:23 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA03581 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:48:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAMEgc73057503; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 06:42:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAMEgcxF057501; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 06:42:38 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAMEgc1A057495 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 06:42:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 30506 invoked by uid 17064); 22 Nov 2004 14:42:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.140.47]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 22 Nov 2004 14:42:40 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: <7A2CA095-3C93-11D9-8B7F-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> <00d801c4cf86$7b30a790$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> <006f01c4cfef$a83b04b0$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> <7A2CA095-3C93-11D9-8B7F-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceFeedState: UML model Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 15:42:36 +0100 To: Mark Nottingham , "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 22 Nov 2004, at 15:33, Henry Story wrote: > - a Link that points to the the Dynamic Feed document which is the > *start* of the > feed. This document is the one that is usually considered to be the > feed. > - a Link that points to the *next* newest feed document, which > contains the next entry states in increasing age. This is always a > Static feed. > - a Link that points to the previous Feed document. This can either > be a static feed or a dynamic feed document. If the previous document > is a Static document then it points to the same document as the > *start* link) sorry that third point should read: "if the previous document is a _Dynamic_ document, then it points to the same document as the *start* link." From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 22 09:56:22 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA04120 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:56:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAMEmxFQ061353; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 06:48:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAMEmxOd061352; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 06:48:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from xbox.wkearney.com (xbox.wkearney.com [66.92.145.79]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAMEmvM6061285 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 06:48:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wkearney@syndic8.com) Received: from media (media.wkearney.com [192.168.12.32]) by xbox.wkearney.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DE95BBC8B4 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:48:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <018801c4d0a2$6399f510$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> From: "Bill Kearney" To: References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> <1f2ed5cd0411210211229bf630@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: PaceFeedState Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:48:53 -0500 Organization: http://www.ideaspace.net/users/wkearney/foaf.xrdf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > In "Feed State Model" the assumption is being made that the order of > > the entries in the feed representation is significant (most recent at > > the top). I could be wrong, but I don't think that's in the spec. > > Correct. I think we need to disambiguate this in any case, if there is > an overall concept of a feed that's greater than the current document. To which end? Ordering having significance or not? > It doesn't have to remember every change; it just has to remember the > last feed 'this' URI that it saw, so it can walk its way backwards to > it. As in what, provide that as a header of some sort when requesting from the feed URL? > > I wouldn't have though a warning should be needed in its absence. Under > > what circumstances would the client actually want to reconstruct feed > > state? My guess is that would fall outside 80/20 applications. > > Most aggregators do it today; they're just sloppy about it (because > they don't have a mechanism like this). To me, the most boring > aggregators are those built into browsers that don't keep state. To me, > the warning is absolutely critical; it raises the guarantee you get > with Atom, and differentiates it from RSS substantially. I certainly agree with the idea of discouraging page-load insanity as seen in some portal scripts and browser-embedded readers. I can also see value in adding semantics that require more than 'blind requests' for "the feed". I'm not sure, however, that doing it with 'prev/next' is a way that best solves it given the tools seen in the field. If we're going to ask folks (publishers and subscribers) to do something different we might as well ask them to rise more than just a half-step above the current state of affairs. -Bill Kearney Syndic8.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 22 10:23:42 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA07698 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:23:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAMFGClW077919; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:16:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAMFGCrB077918; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:16:12 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAMFGBGF077776 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:16:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iAMF6dc7012562; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 15:06:44 GMT In-Reply-To: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-18-422232377; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <1CF39914-3C98-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Cc: Atom WG From: Graham Subject: Re: PaceFeedState Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 15:06:39 +0000 To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-18-422232377 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I haven't had time to read the Pace properly yet, but browsing this thread it seems several people are trying to demand publishers keep previous versions of entries, and supply them on request. Why is this any of our business? Huge -1 to Managing Feed State doing anything beyond codifying current feed best-practice. Graham --Apple-Mail-18-422232377 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMTIyMTUwNjQwWjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQU4xP4QxkejkcR2/dWb4zCkzki 7ssweAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEAWLqLuRehwzaNhs04pnEN2gEh bKPdtyLF35789pmFL0qePOLW4fvYjGHCeq7gD5Li7b2dBgXjVKFSjg3uM0aVUc5sBAIHeEOHAD8Q ClozWIjr5wu98NBJkLLmWJk8Kk8m+wb+baE8dtr/7HCRr1EnzgQCY/9pc+zyC8hYRQCojzss8BXc PoOuho51MKm3LC3imy9tQdDQHxswrmog9wrI9AbiVcwBfaYcHNXjDf0eiA0+TrdiLL5LBKehgc7X Nr6+dFMzccz8kOxBCo7hRc9IsVbGCGTUn+35ZD30C5ac7i2rIUnKKuvXv9RpLqvRV15bfZNiZKP3 z2+43vkuu962LAAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-18-422232377-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 22 10:50:43 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA10371 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:50:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAMFbtF9090787; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:37:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAMFbtuf090786; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:37:55 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.199]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAMFbs7N090744 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:37:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id g11so494550rne for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:37:54 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=VnX90tuRTsbRqn3Jcez2co14EiBBlphFOIVie6zFnsVJCMEwxWJHqd2T6RGQbEA1c7EGH5+CAPugmXeFPpDErXrFOcy72pe5i6BJNgujZJzEJv1h2wgoveQe7d83ddDYMpvTc4Su4CUmqe8U4FsyrU7NDUBri2/FmBVXtyOu5E4= Received: by 10.38.72.23 with SMTP id u23mr42032rna; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:37:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.151.28 with HTTP; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:37:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3f1451f5041122073757a3574d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:37:54 -0500 From: Joe Gregorio Reply-To: Joe Gregorio To: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Published extensibility Paces Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: <1978235E-3414-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <3f1451f504111019483c4fc886@mail.gmail.com> <1978235E-3414-11D9-BFD3-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:01:31 -0800, Tim Bray wrote: > Questions for Joe: > 1. Why do you think this is hard to implement? > 2. Assuming I can persuade you that it's cheap, would you be OK with it > even given the lack of use in SOAP? I thought about this more after we talked about mustUnderstand at XML 2004 and tried to clarify my objection to mustUnderstand. For me it comes down to this: mustUnderstand is a form of validation. For the Atom Format we've already rejected validity constraints and have settled for well-formed documents, and I believe that should hold no matter the validation method, either schema, DTD or mustUnderstand. -joe -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 22 11:08:49 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA12198 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 11:08:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAMFxmBn001240; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:59:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAMFxmQD001239; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:59:48 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from xbox.wkearney.com (xbox.wkearney.com [66.92.145.79]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAMFxl2F001162 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:59:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wkearney@syndic8.com) Received: from media (media.wkearney.com [192.168.12.32]) by xbox.wkearney.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 46523BC8B4 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:59:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <024c01c4d0ac$48f1e060$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> From: "Bill Kearney" Cc: "Atom WG" References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> <1CF39914-3C98-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Subject: Re: PaceFeedState Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:59:42 -0500 Organization: http://www.ideaspace.net/users/wkearney/foaf.xrdf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I haven't had time to read the Pace properly yet, but browsing this > thread it seems several people are trying to demand publishers keep > previous versions of entries, and supply them on request. Why is this > any of our business? I think we mean previous version of FEEDS not entries. If a site wants to get into tracking previous versions of the entries themselves, well, that's a whole different can of worms. As to whether it's anyone's business that's where optional/required comes into play. The most compelling use case I can think of for why it's a "good idea" is a new user attempting to get up to speed on a feed. Having their aggregator be able to know how to traverse backwards through collections of entries would be tremendously helpful in this regard. It'd also help a user that's been disconnected for a period of time find entries that may have been published in the meanwhile. It would also provide a way to publish 'chunks' of entries without getting into full-on querying semantics. I'm sensing, however, some sort of 'best practices' for publishing such collections would be interesting. Well-known 'types' of sets current, last week, this month, last month, etc would probably be something many users could identify with using. I'm not suggesting that here but it's probably worth considering. > Huge -1 to Managing Feed State doing anything beyond codifying current > feed best-practice. Which, in your estimation, is what? -Bill Kearney From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 22 11:24:39 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA13398 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 11:24:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAMGCB7a006688; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:12:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAMGCBCU006685; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:12:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.mnot.net (adsl-67-119-69-242.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAMGC9dJ006659 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:12:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [10.0.1.47] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) by mail.mnot.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 282507280; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:12:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <1CF39914-3C98-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> <1CF39914-3C98-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <4414770E-3CA1-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Atom WG X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham X-Face: }I;hHtiZ43-RK8s{or'?iELJ;!_Mt2|\hW'VcAn*UR#@;4p5@s},~+i=>p})B"gMK%m,`?|Cy>=P/om{?_\aOaPaDMK)TkU_b3]A85YU?A 3iYcf9##+Qu~e(m6w=ot[yfp1G)WXBYGcTM{!EWIB2n/%E@5PjJ_GXq(b2Fq0|#uL{ Subject: Re: PaceFeedState Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:12:11 -0800 To: Graham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Graham, Not demand; publishers aren't required to keep them. It's also not about previous versions; it's about allowing them to catch up with entries (or changes to them) that they've missed. IMO, this is one of the things that the Atom format can do to differentiate itself from RSS; it's really important. Please take a look before making a judgement. Cheers, On Nov 22, 2004, at 7:06 AM, Graham wrote: > I haven't had time to read the Pace properly yet, but browsing this > thread it seems several people are trying to demand publishers keep > previous versions of entries, and supply them on request. Why is this > any of our business? > > Huge -1 to Managing Feed State doing anything beyond codifying current > feed best-practice. > > Graham -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 22 11:25:30 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA13489 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 11:25:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAMGDZxX007521; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:13:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAMGDZPO007520; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:13:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAMGDYxq007493 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:13:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CWGol-0002rn-0d; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:13:31 +0000 Message-ID: <41A2102C.1070409@franklinmint.fm> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 11:13:32 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Kearney CC: Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceFeedState References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> <1CF39914-3C98-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <024c01c4d0ac$48f1e060$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> In-Reply-To: <024c01c4d0ac$48f1e060$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Kearney wrote: >>I haven't had time to read the Pace properly yet, but browsing this >>thread it seems several people are trying to demand publishers keep >>previous versions of entries, and supply them on request. Why is this >>any of our business? > > > I think we mean previous version of FEEDS not entries. If a site wants to > get into tracking previous versions of the entries themselves, well, that's > a whole different can of worms. > > As to whether it's anyone's business that's where optional/required comes > into play. > SHOULD is too strong, IMHO. We don't need to get into SHOULDs or MAYs here. Describe the feature, outline how it's accomplished. > >>Huge -1 to Managing Feed State doing anything beyond codifying current >>feed best-practice. Sounds like Graham. "Huge -1". Spare me. People (even some aggregator authors) ask for this all time. A link relation that points at a feed with older entries has been in the drafts until very recently. It's not a big deal either way. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 22 12:29:23 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA24792 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 12:29:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAMH8d8i029661; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:08:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAMH8dZF029660; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:08:39 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.143.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAMH8dT1029605 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:08:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F472AD for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:08:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.150.112] (diva.verity.com [192.168.150.112]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id iAMH8bKB014563 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:08:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:17:52 -0800 From: Walter Underwood To: Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceFeedState Message-ID: <6BE07774795C978EA79C1B37@diva.verity.com> In-Reply-To: <4414770E-3CA1-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> <1CF39914-3C98-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <4414770E-3CA1-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is also a useful model for archiving. wunder --On Monday, November 22, 2004 08:12:11 AM -0800 Mark Nottingham wrote: > > Hi Graham, > > Not demand; publishers aren't required to keep them. > > It's also not about previous versions; it's about allowing them to catch up with entries (or changes to them) that they've missed. > > IMO, this is one of the things that the Atom format can do to differentiate itself from RSS; it's really important. Please take a look before making a judgement. > > Cheers, > > > On Nov 22, 2004, at 7:06 AM, Graham wrote: > >> I haven't had time to read the Pace properly yet, but browsing this >> thread it seems several people are trying to demand publishers keep >> previous versions of entries, and supply them on request. Why is this >> any of our business? >> >> Huge -1 to Managing Feed State doing anything beyond codifying current >> feed best-practice. >> >> Graham > > -- > Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ > -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect Verity Ultraseek From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 22 16:26:01 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA20795 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:26:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAMLAfNs023512; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:10:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAMLAfRM023511; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:10:41 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAMLAepC023501 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:10:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAMLAjun012576 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 14:10:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I7L0024JMTW70@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 14:10:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.192.42.225] ([192.18.45.134]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0I7L0088MMTWCD@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 14:10:44 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:10:48 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Work Queue Rotation #13 To: "'Atom WG'" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Current issues list: http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/AtomPubIssuesList Volume has been high, and it's possible I missed something or got it wrong: push back as appropriate. PaceLinkPurpose, which is closed, wants to replace the description of the language describing . There's a proposal from Rob Sayre to replace it, at http://imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11584.html - that proposal got some cheers and no significant pushback; I'm inclined to skip over the Pace process and declare Sayre's proposal to have rough consensus. If anyone disagrees, Rob has to write a Pace. PaceConstructAttribute, PaceRelationshipConstruct: * -1 from Bray, Sayre ** Mark it for closure PaceFieldingLinks: * Some positive comments, no -1's * Calls for ruling out relative URIs (done) * Calls for wording change from Graham based on Cocoa code examples didn't get much support. * Outstanding calls for language about how rel= values are to be compared. A Pace needs to be written if someone cares enough * Agreement that if there's consensus on some more rel= values for the initial revenue, we should get them in to the format draft, go ahead and write Paces. ** I believe this has rough consensus and should be accepted. PaceHeadInEntry * Discussion on how inheritance works. Clearest statement from Wyman: http://imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11683.html * Seems to me that this implies removing atom:origin. Does anyone disagree? * Suggestion from Underwood that the potentially-misleading word "inherit" not be used * Should be first child: http://imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11627.html ** I'm inclined to say this has rough consensus; will need some application of editorial judgment. From here on down, the *only* comments were from me: PaceLinkByLocation * One -0, no cheerleaders ** Close it PaceLinkRelPrefixReg * One -0, no cheerleaders ** Close it PaceMetaElement * One -1, no cheerleaders ** Close it -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 22 23:46:46 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA13150 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 23:46:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAN4Qf21098271; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 20:26:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAN4QfiR098270; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 20:26:41 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (imap.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iAN4Qd1S098207 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 20:26:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from derhoermi@gmx.net) Received: (qmail 8350 invoked by uid 65534); 23 Nov 2004 04:26:40 -0000 Received: from dsl-213-023-058-108.arcor-ip.net (EHLO helix) (213.23.58.108) by mail.gmx.net (mp018) with SMTP; 23 Nov 2004 05:26:40 +0100 X-Authenticated: #723575 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann To: Tim Bray Cc: "'Atom WG'" Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #13 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 05:26:40 +0100 Message-ID: <41acb97b.85236765@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit * Tim Bray wrote: >PaceLinkPurpose, which is closed, wants to replace the description of >the language describing . There's a proposal from Rob Sayre to >replace it, at http://imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11584.html - >that proposal got some cheers and no significant pushback; I'm inclined >to skip over the Pace process and declare Sayre's proposal to have >rough consensus. If anyone disagrees, Rob has to write a Pace. The proposal makes little sense to me, in particular I do not understand the difference to "HTML dialects" that is suggested here, so I am -1 to have this text in the draft. >PaceFieldingLinks: >* Some positive comments, no -1's I am clearly -1 on this as I've indicated earlier as this base URI stuff makes no sense. >* Outstanding calls for language about how rel= values are to be >compared. A Pace needs to be written if someone cares enough Sorry but the Pace is clearly incomplete without this. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 23 03:32:16 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA14665 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 03:32:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAN8AhSs056876; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 00:10:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAN8Ahox056874; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 00:10:43 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAN8Agff056864 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 00:10:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 2450 invoked by uid 17064); 23 Nov 2004 08:10:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.140.47]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 23 Nov 2004 08:10:42 -0000 In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <2881B5D2-3D27-11D9-8B7F-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Tim Bray From: Henry Story Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #13 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:10:37 +0100 To: "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It seems to me that PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 with atom:origin is a good counter proposal to PaceHeadInEntry. It also simplifies the spec a lot more. The two should at least be compared and evalutated on their merit. It may not be obvious from the discussion but I would see the following people to have at least been interested by the idea: + Robert Sayre who proposed PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown, the previous version + Antone Roundy, who has proposed criticism for the proposal, but none of which seems definitively to bury it. They are more like enunciations of the consequences of the proposal Henry On 22 Nov 2004, at 22:10, Tim Bray wrote: > PaceHeadInEntry > * Discussion on how inheritance works. Clearest statement from Wyman: > http://imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11683.html > * Seems to me that this implies removing atom:origin. Does anyone > disagree? > * Suggestion from Underwood that the potentially-misleading word > "inherit" not be used > * Should be first child: > http://imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11627.html > ** I'm inclined to say this has rough consensus; will need some > application of editorial judgment. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 23 06:52:33 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA00333 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 06:52:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANBcxAF015940; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 03:38:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iANBcxkc015939; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 03:38:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANBcwBG015925 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 03:38:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so218106rns for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 03:38:59 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=dfoIANPuUvRXVXpuVBKyxH+oOjFe9b2OZmcChQwZoZoQssIG5RL800z/LfXYCqRSgGCPYnkteglTaCWMt489AT+JfbpNd9dDdv6DN/YAM62FTB9rt/fk/IsfBQFKL4zsnErntSC7pjgw09Vb6Ik2E3FRl2BnSn3g8+bTW88azOo= Received: by 10.38.179.40 with SMTP id b40mr57147rnf; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 03:38:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.52 with HTTP; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 03:38:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd041123033850d22c3a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:38:59 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Henry Story Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #13 Cc: Atom WG , Tim Bray In-Reply-To: <2881B5D2-3D27-11D9-8B7F-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <2881B5D2-3D27-11D9-8B7F-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Tim. The parts highlighted by Bjoern and Henry do seem the pieces that are less clear-cut. I appreciate Rob's effort to try and get some usable wording, but to me the suggested version (pasted below) seems too far removed from the world of resources and HTTP, also overly prescriptive. I don't think it needs a Pace, but does need revisiting. I *tried* to follow the threads about PaceHeadInEntry/PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 but to be honest got completely lost in not only the practical implications but also the motivation for each approach. Before I personally would be able to judge one way or the other I'd need a copy of "Head For Dummies". Cheers, Danny. [[ A Link construct is an empty element that describes a connection from an Atom document to another Web resource. When a link is activated, User Agents are expected to visit the linked resource, rather than apply metadata such as schema or styling information as is common in HTML dialects. ]] -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 23 09:37:47 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA14566 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:37:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANEQWWs001450; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 06:26:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iANEQWt3001449; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 06:26:32 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANEQVqE001406 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 06:26:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from duerst@w3.org) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12A674F0FC; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:26:28 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20041123222826.060b0af8@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:34:31 +0900 To: Bjoern Hoehrmann , Tim Bray From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #13 Cc: "'Atom WG'" In-Reply-To: <41acb97b.85236765@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> References: <41acb97b.85236765@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 13:26 04/11/23, Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: >>PaceFieldingLinks: >>* Some positive comments, no -1's > >I am clearly -1 on this as I've indicated earlier as this base URI stuff >makes no sense. "makes no sense" isn't a technical argument. "it doesn't work" or "here is something better" is much better. I think Roy has expressed the reasons for this proposal best, but I'll summarise them here: - central registry for well-used stuff so that it can be found, and doesn't need to be duplicated, and can be expressed in a short form - Ability for a very wide range of people to create their own values ad-hoc if they need them, without collision (as long as the rules are followed) - Overall common space for these values, and clear mapping to technologies such as RDF. >>* Outstanding calls for language about how rel= values are to be >>compared. A Pace needs to be written if someone cares enough > >Sorry but the Pace is clearly incomplete without this. I agree that the comparison text should go into PaceFieldingLinks itself, and should be rather easy to write. Regards, Martin. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 23 09:48:55 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA16144 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:48:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANEe27Z006357; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 06:40:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iANEe2Tc006356; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 06:40:02 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANEe1PB006302 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 06:40:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CWbpf-0000Z5-KC; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:39:51 +0000 Message-ID: <41A34BB6.7000601@franklinmint.fm> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:39:50 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Danny Ayers CC: Henry Story , Atom WG , Tim Bray Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #13 References: <2881B5D2-3D27-11D9-8B7F-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <1f2ed5cd041123033850d22c3a@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd041123033850d22c3a@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Danny Ayers wrote: > > I appreciate Rob's effort to try and get some usable wording, but to > me the suggested version (pasted below) seems too far removed from the > world of resources and HTTP, also overly prescriptive. I don't think > it needs a Pace, but does need revisiting. Too far removed from a requirement that isn't present, vague, and yet still overly precriptive. I've really accomplished something here. However, I find your objection insufficiently detailed. Show us a use case and a problem with the language in concrete terms. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 23 10:13:27 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA19370 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:13:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANF4hA0016348; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:04:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iANF4hDC016347; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:04:43 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANF4hef016296 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:04:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 14078 invoked by uid 17064); 23 Nov 2004 15:04:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.101.50]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 23 Nov 2004 15:04:34 -0000 In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd041123033850d22c3a@mail.gmail.com> References: <2881B5D2-3D27-11D9-8B7F-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <1f2ed5cd041123033850d22c3a@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Danny Ayers From: Henry Story Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #13 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:04:27 +0100 To: "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Let me summarize PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2. Some time ago, black folks in america were treated one way, differently from white folks. Laws for each group were different, because they were thought to be two different types of people. After a lot of fighting and hard work, it was seen that there was no need for the law to make any distinctions between the two groups. The law, it was seen would be simpler and more just if it treated all as equal. Similarly I am saying that the structure that goes in the "head", is really no different from the Entry structure. The distinctions that are being made between entry metadata and feed metadata, all seem superfluous to me. We loose nothing by scratching them, and we gain a lot of simplicity in the spec and in our understanding of what we are doing. Anotone Roundy made a nice side by side comparison of the current differences between what goes in a head and what goes in an Entry [1]. I responded to some of the questions he asked [2]. In his response to this message [3] Antone agreed that MOST of the structural difference can be resolved. Perhaps with a little effort we will find that all of it can be, or if not that an elegant solution exists that takes into account this overwhelming similarity. Henry Story [1] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11577.html [2] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11604.html [3] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11673.html On 23 Nov 2004, at 12:38, Danny Ayers wrote: > I *tried* to follow the threads about > PaceHeadInEntry/PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 but to be honest got > completely lost in not only the practical implications but also the > motivation for each approach. Before I personally would be able to > judge one way or the other I'd need a copy of "Head For Dummies". From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 23 10:14:54 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA19597 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:14:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANF9YPm018218; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:09:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iANF9YOn018217; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:09:34 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANF9UiW018175 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:09:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <20041123150927012009bnk9e>; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 15:09:27 +0000 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:09:26 -0700 Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #13 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, November 22, 2004, at 02:10 PM, Tim Bray wrote: > PaceFieldingLinks: > * Some positive comments, no -1's > * Calls for ruling out relative URIs (done) > * Calls for wording change from Graham based on Cocoa code examples > didn't get much support. > * Outstanding calls for language about how rel= values are to be > compared. A Pace needs to be written if someone cares enough > * Agreement that if there's consensus on some more rel= values for the > initial revenue, we should get them in to the format draft, go ahead > and write Paces. > ** I believe this has rough consensus and should be accepted. I'm strongly in favor of accepting this, and writing a Pace to cover comparison of @rel values. Let's make progress a little at a time rather than holding back on ANY progress until we've got it perfect. We've been doing that in some areas for long enough. > PaceHeadInEntry > * Discussion on how inheritance works. Clearest statement from Wyman: > http://imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11683.html > * Seems to me that this implies removing atom:origin. Does anyone > disagree? > * Suggestion from Underwood that the potentially-misleading word > "inherit" not be used > * Should be first child: > http://imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11627.html > ** I'm inclined to say this has rough consensus; will need some > application of editorial judgment. +1. Again, if there are details that need adjustment, let's accept this first and adjust afterward. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 23 10:22:44 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA20669 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:22:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANFFwvx020362; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:15:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iANFFwMW020361; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:15:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANFFvuU020325 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:15:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <20041123151554012009fsrce>; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 15:15:54 +0000 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:15:53 -0700 Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #13 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <41acb97b.85236765@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> Message-Id: <913B88EE-3D62-11D9-BDDD-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, November 22, 2004, at 09:26 PM, Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: >> PaceLinkPurpose, which is closed, wants to replace the description of >> the language describing . There's a proposal from Rob Sayre to >> replace it, at http://imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11584.html - >> that proposal got some cheers and no significant pushback; I'm >> inclined >> to skip over the Pace process and declare Sayre's proposal to have >> rough consensus. If anyone disagrees, Rob has to write a Pace. > > The proposal makes little sense to me, in particular I do not > understand > the difference to "HTML dialects" that is suggested here, so I am -1 to > have this text in the draft. > The difference is that we (at least some of us) don't want atom:link used for things like this: We want it used only for links that are meant to be activated by the user and result in visiting the resource. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 23 10:55:48 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA24383 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:55:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANFjSW9029517; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:45:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iANFjSUW029516; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:45:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.199]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANFjQ78029502 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:45:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id g11so688271rne for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:45:27 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=bwoJWv0MtfEsDlLKTM+jMeYL29l/FjpdX9Jdd6kOjUSXknVBIRcS1UsjoOJ6y0h/d5BirADHrrUtFt0JNUvh+VqF/ggTPMiVXMXIU4lfGuTOwFH9GBWBbXTO/68OnOKrm0U750C/bcKGCK9M/qFZ7uV6Cu3QYsLvG2+lhQF2OCw= Received: by 10.38.72.23 with SMTP id u23mr190799rna; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:45:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.151.27 with HTTP; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:45:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3f1451f50411230745261232e7@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:45:27 -0500 From: Joe Gregorio Reply-To: Joe Gregorio To: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #13 Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:09:26 -0700, Antone Roundy wrote: > On Monday, November 22, 2004, at 02:10 PM, Tim Bray wrote: > > PaceFieldingLinks: > > * Some positive comments, no -1's > > * Calls for ruling out relative URIs (done) > > * Calls for wording change from Graham based on Cocoa code examples > > didn't get much support. > > * Outstanding calls for language about how rel= values are to be > > compared. A Pace needs to be written if someone cares enough > > * Agreement that if there's consensus on some more rel= values for the > > initial revenue, we should get them in to the format draft, go ahead > > and write Paces. > > ** I believe this has rough consensus and should be accepted. > I'm strongly in favor of accepting this, and writing a Pace to cover > comparison of @rel values. Let's make progress a little at a time > rather than holding back on ANY progress until we've got it perfect. > We've been doing that in some areas for long enough. +1 on the accepting the Pace as is and a big +1 to the sentiment of making progress a little at a time rather than holding back ANY progress until something is perfect. -joe -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 23 11:06:51 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA25099 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:06:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANFvFSv033074; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:57:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iANFvFS0033073; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:57:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iANFvD9F032993 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:57:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from derhoermi@gmx.net) Received: (qmail 21146 invoked by uid 65534); 23 Nov 2004 15:57:02 -0000 Received: from dsl-082-083-160-068.arcor-ip.net (EHLO helix) (82.83.160.68) by mail.gmx.net (mp030) with SMTP; 23 Nov 2004 16:57:02 +0100 X-Authenticated: #723575 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann To: Martin Duerst Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #13 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:57:04 +0100 Message-ID: <41c65ca9.127011562@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> References: <41acb97b.85236765@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <6.0.0.20.2.20041123222826.060b0af8@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20041123222826.060b0af8@localhost> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit * Martin Duerst wrote: >"makes no sense" isn't a technical argument. "it doesn't work" or >"here is something better" is much better. I think Roy has expressed >the reasons for this proposal best, but I'll summarise them here: > >- central registry for well-used stuff so that it can be found, and > doesn't need to be duplicated, and can be expressed in a short form >- Ability for a very wide range of people to create their own values > ad-hoc if they need them, without collision (as long as the rules are > followed) When Tim asked not to discuss syntax and rather how to proceed and Roy proposed this syntax, Tim already mentioned using URIs for extensions here, so this is nothing new or unique to Roy's proposal. >- Overall common space for these values, and clear mapping to technologies > such as RDF. That does not seem worth the additional complexity, we do not map other attribute values into "URI space" either, so why would we do this here? From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 23 11:07:58 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA25309 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:07:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANFwefJ033563; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:58:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iANFwev2033562; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:58:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (imap.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iANFwdop033543 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:58:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from derhoermi@gmx.net) Received: (qmail 20933 invoked by uid 65534); 23 Nov 2004 15:58:36 -0000 Received: from dsl-082-083-160-068.arcor-ip.net (EHLO helix) (82.83.160.68) by mail.gmx.net (mp023) with SMTP; 23 Nov 2004 16:58:36 +0100 X-Authenticated: #723575 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann To: Antone Roundy Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #13 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:58:37 +0100 Message-ID: <41c75dd8.127314390@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> References: <41acb97b.85236765@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <913B88EE-3D62-11D9-BDDD-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> In-Reply-To: <913B88EE-3D62-11D9-BDDD-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit * Antone Roundy wrote: >The difference is that we (at least some of us) don't want atom:link >used for things like this: > > > >We want it used only for links that are meant to be activated by the >user and result in visiting the resource. I don't think the HTML 4.01 Recommendations considers this "link" activated when the style sheet is applied to the document, though the question is quite interesting. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 23 11:25:20 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA27077 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:25:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANGJIdL039756; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:19:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iANGJInK039755; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:19:18 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANGJIw3039747 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:19:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 73360 invoked by uid 17064); 23 Nov 2004 16:19:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.16]) ([83.112.101.50]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 23 Nov 2004 16:19:20 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: References: <2881B5D2-3D27-11D9-8B7F-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <1f2ed5cd041123033850d22c3a@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <6A4A98B8-3D6B-11D9-8B7F-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #13 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 17:19:13 +0100 To: "'Atom WG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thinking about this a little more I don't think I need to stop the PaceHeadInEntry. PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 seems to me to be compatible with it, though from my current understand, perhaps just a little unnecessary. Henry On 23 Nov 2004, at 16:04, Henry Story wrote: > > Let me summarize PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2. > > Some time ago, black folks in america were treated one way, > differently from white folks. Laws for each group were different, > because they were thought to be two different types of people. After a > lot of fighting and hard work, it was seen that there was no need for > the law to make any distinctions between the two groups. The law, it > was seen would be simpler and more just if it treated all as equal. > > Similarly I am saying that the structure that goes in the "head", is > really no different from the Entry structure. The distinctions that > are being made between entry metadata and feed metadata, all seem > superfluous to me. We loose nothing by scratching them, and we gain a > lot of simplicity in the spec and in our understanding of what we are > doing. > > Anotone Roundy made a nice side by side comparison of the current > differences between > what goes in a head and what goes in an Entry [1]. I responded to some > of the questions he asked [2]. In his response to this message [3] > Antone agreed that MOST of the structural difference can be resolved. > Perhaps with a little effort we will find that all of it can be, or if > not that an elegant solution exists that takes into account this > overwhelming similarity. > > Henry Story > > [1] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11577.html > [2] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11604.html > [3] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11673.html > > > On 23 Nov 2004, at 12:38, Danny Ayers wrote: > >> I *tried* to follow the threads about >> PaceHeadInEntry/PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2 but to be honest got >> completely lost in not only the practical implications but also the >> motivation for each approach. Before I personally would be able to >> judge one way or the other I'd need a copy of "Head For Dummies". > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 23 13:20:10 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA05563 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:20:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANI71wb072382; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:07:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iANI71gI072381; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:07:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.192]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANI71Vi072374 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:07:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so1206rns for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:07:04 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=Gn/m6Ihs1ob69qkSkQ83bCmSF7eEaRonwqh5d3KlSAu5B5BJT0RynOzH6qEQ7bg0oBItAq0xgrM8eeBiSyXJinwQ13atol45gcE3+99Ldc+kfSGqwmbrPnpm/CIEnH5i2KkrqEj7zz0J/opFfFD0uOORWt+x79oCkfQXS1K6yTY= Received: by 10.38.179.40 with SMTP id b40mr159903rnf; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:07:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.52 with HTTP; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:07:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd041123100729f8ad36@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 19:07:04 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: mint@franklinmint.fm Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #13 Cc: Henry Story , Atom WG , Tim Bray In-Reply-To: <41A34BB6.7000601@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <2881B5D2-3D27-11D9-8B7F-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> <1f2ed5cd041123033850d22c3a@mail.gmail.com> <41A34BB6.7000601@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:39:50 -0500, Robert Sayre wrote: > Danny Ayers wrote: > > > > > I appreciate Rob's effort to try and get some usable wording, but to > > me the suggested version (pasted below) seems too far removed from the > > world of resources and HTTP, also overly prescriptive. I don't think > > it needs a Pace, but does need revisiting. > > Too far removed from a requirement that isn't present, vague, and yet > still overly precriptive. I've really accomplished something here. > > However, I find your objection insufficiently detailed. Show us a use > case and a problem with the language in concrete terms. "A Link construct is an empty element that describes a connection from an Atom document to another Web resource." Ok. Why not just leave it at that. Let me try to disambiguate the next bit to show why I don't think it works - "When a link is activated, User Agents are expected to visit the linked resource, rather than apply metadata such as schema or styling information as is common in HTML dialects." => "The User Agent will present the user with some form of interface component corresponding to the link construct through which they may interact (such as a hyperlink or button). The User Agent is expected to respond to interactions with that component by applying a HTTP GET to the resource identified by the URI and somehow processing the returned data. The construct should not be interpreted as a declarative statement of a relation between the Atom document and the identified resource, nor should the data returned by the GET be used for validation or display styling purposes." Why not just take the first sentence, and leave it to the definition of the 'rel' to explain the nature of the connection? What's wrong with purely declarative (non-hyperlink) connections? If a hyperlink really *is* all that's intended, then why not just say something like: "the element describes a hyperlink which the User Agent is expected to treat link a HTML anchor tag, providing HTTP access to the identified resource". Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 23 13:24:39 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA06009 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:24:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANIGSUV075720; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:16:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iANIGShl075719; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:16:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from imo-m17.mx.aol.com (imo-m17.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANIGPQ0075643 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:16:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Svgdeveloper@aol.com) Received: from Svgdeveloper@aol.com by imo-m17.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id o.ea.5d296067 (4320); Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:16:12 -0500 (EST) From: Svgdeveloper@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:16:11 EST Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #13 To: danny.ayers@gmail.com CC: atom-syntax@imc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_ea.5d296067.2ed4d86b_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 670 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --part1_ea.5d296067.2ed4d86b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/23/2004 6:11:48 PM GMT Standard Time, danny.ayers@gmail.com writes: > If a hyperlink really *is* all that's intended, then why not just say > something like: "the element describes a hyperlink which the > User Agent is expected to treat link a HTML anchor tag, providing HTTP > access to the identified resource". With or without fragment identifier? Andrew Watt --part1_ea.5d296067.2ed4d86b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 11/23/2004 6:11:= 48 PM GMT Standard Time, danny.ayers@gmail.com writes:

If a hyperlink really *is* all=20= that's intended, then why not just say
something like: "the <link> element describes a hyperlink which the User Agent is expected to treat link a HTML anchor tag, providing HTTP
access to the identified resource".


With or without fragment identifier?

Andrew Watt --part1_ea.5d296067.2ed4d86b_boundary-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 23 14:06:28 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA09178 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:06:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANIx7uq088108; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:59:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iANIx76p088107; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:59:07 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANIx7XH088072 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:59:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004112318590501100l5o2ce>; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 18:59:05 +0000 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:59:04 -0700 Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #13 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd041123100729f8ad36@mail.gmail.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, November 23, 2004, at 11:07 AM, Danny Ayers wrote: > "A Link construct is an empty element that describes a connection from > an Atom document to another Web resource." > > Ok. Why not just leave it at that. Because it doesn't rule out substantially different uses that people might (and in fact have) come up with for which make generic link processing impossible. > "The User Agent will present the user with some form of interface > component corresponding to the link construct through which they may > interact (such as a hyperlink or button). Okay. > The User Agent is expected > to respond to interactions with that component by applying a HTTP GET > to the resource identified by the URI and somehow processing the > returned data. Only if the URI is an HTTP URI. > The construct should not be interpreted as a > declarative statement of a relation between the Atom document and the > identified resource Either I don't understand what you mean, or I disagree. The @rel value does describe the relationship between the resources--one's an alternative format version of the other, they're related (ie., talk about the same topic), one is a response to the other, etc. > nor should the data returned by the GET be used > for validation or display styling purposes." Okay. > Why not just take the first sentence, and leave it to the definition > of the 'rel' to explain the nature of the connection? What's wrong > with purely declarative (non-hyperlink) connections? Nothing, as long as they're in a different element. Lumping them into the same element as hyperlinks would make it impossible to use generic processing on the element. What reason is there for using the same element for both hyperlinks and non-hyperlink ... links? > If a hyperlink really *is* all that's intended, then why not just say > something like: "the element describes a hyperlink which the > User Agent is expected to treat link a HTML anchor tag, providing HTTP > access to the identified resource". > * I think the term "hyperlink" describes a subset of ways that a feed reader might render elements. * is different in various ways from (for example, we never use to create the target endpoint of a link), so defining atom:link in terms of html:a is imprecise at best. * The protocol specified by the link may not be HTTP. > "When a link is activated, User Agents are expected to visit the > linked resource, rather than > apply metadata such as schema or styling information as is common in > HTML dialects." This text does not get into specifics which won't apply in all circumstances. The reference to HTML is just an example for clarification in terms familiar to many who will read the spec. It strikes me as an excellent minimalist way of describing the desired limitation to the scope of the element. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 23 14:47:53 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA12852 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:47:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANJaOxR097780; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:36:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iANJaOjS097779; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:36:24 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.199]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANJaNGV097772 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:36:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so5004rns for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:36:26 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=Lhg6MkvsLm9QM5GRSpmDxqOdX/pfgexIJtK8wTBHKd7XF5l0tjnb+dEG5u6TgBcPFwHM/+PGSCxeEvJa6bsMiyXHubsgxaHj9hH8CBd4zfynrDcYaXkX24RIgoc7axojb0UQOtWMFSQkBJAWGiVyAZKEj+v57yAWjYlNWeL9Q2c= Received: by 10.38.179.40 with SMTP id b40mr183601rnf; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:36:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.52 with HTTP; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:36:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04112311364fe98393@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:36:26 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #13 Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <1f2ed5cd041123100729f8ad36@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:59:04 -0700, Antone Roundy wrote: > Only if the URI is an HTTP URI. Ok, I completely missed non-HTTP URIs. > > The construct should not be interpreted as a > > declarative statement of a relation between the Atom document and the > > identified resource > Either I don't understand what you mean, or I disagree. The @rel value > does describe the relationship between the resources--one's an > alternative format version of the other, they're related (ie., talk > about the same topic), one is a response to the other, etc. Ok, what I should have said is "The construct should not be interpreted as *only* a declarative statement...". > Nothing, as long as they're in a different element. Lumping them into > the same element as hyperlinks would make it impossible to use generic > processing on the element. > > What reason is there for using the same element for both hyperlinks and > non-hyperlink ... links? Sounds reasonable. I do think there are use cases for expressing non-hyperlink relationships, such as to a stylesheet or schema, and for arbitrary declarative relationships. The former are obviously crying out for elements of their own, the latter should (IMHO) be covered by the extension mechanism. > > If a hyperlink really *is* all that's intended, then why not just say > > something like: "the element describes a hyperlink which the > > User Agent is expected to treat link a HTML anchor tag, providing HTTP > > access to the identified resource". > > > * I think the term "hyperlink" describes a subset of ways > that a feed reader might render elements. It *is* a hyperlink, how it is rendered is another matter. > * is different in various ways from (for example, > we never use to create the target endpoint of a > link), so defining atom:link in terms of html:a is imprecise at best. Sure, perhaps there's some stealable spec wording used for somewhere. > > "When a link is activated, User Agents are expected to visit the > > linked resource, rather than > > apply metadata such as schema or styling information as is common in > > HTML dialects." > This text does not get into specifics which won't apply in all > circumstances. The reference to HTML is just an example for > clarification in terms familiar to many who will read the spec. It > strikes me as an excellent minimalist way of describing the desired > limitation to the scope of the element. "When a link is activated, User Agents are expected to visit the linked resource, rather than apply metadata such as schema or styling information as is common in HTML dialects." It may be useful for informative description somewhere, but it strikes me as being incredibly woolly - what does "activated" mean? What does "visit" mean? What does "apply metadata" mean? Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 23 16:56:42 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA10023 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:56:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANLieOQ035315; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:44:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iANLieaI035314; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:44:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANLidBq035308 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:44:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANLiiun006549 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:44:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I7N00BW2J2JPT@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:44:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.224.4.42] ([208.54.15.1]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0I7N00EZ5J2J0G@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:44:43 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:44:48 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #13 In-reply-to: <41acb97b.85236765@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> To: Bjoern Hoehrmann Cc: "'Atom WG'" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <41acb97b.85236765@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Nov 22, 2004, at 8:26 PM, Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: > * Tim Bray wrote: >> PaceLinkPurpose, which is closed, wants to replace the description of >> the language describing . There's a proposal from Rob Sayre to >> replace it, at http://imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11584.html - >> that proposal got some cheers and no significant pushback; I'm >> inclined >> to skip over the Pace process and declare Sayre's proposal to have >> rough consensus. If anyone disagrees, Rob has to write a Pace. > > The proposal makes little sense to me OK, it's clear that the trial balloon does not enjoy consensus. Those who are unhappy with the language in the draft need to gather consensus on changed text; the best way to do that is with a Pace. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 24 06:28:35 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA10937 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:28:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAOB99Rd056243; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 03:09:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAOB99lF056241; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 03:09:09 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail03.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail03.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.19]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iAOB98bj055987 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 03:09:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 15172 messnum 2053241 invoked from network[83.70.225.10/83-70-225-10.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 24 Nov 2004 11:09:03 -0000 Received: from 83-70-225-10.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?192.168.123.136?) (83.70.225.10) by mail03.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 15172) with SMTP; 24 Nov 2004 11:09:03 -0000 Message-ID: <41A46BBF.7010300@dehora.net> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:08:47 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceFeedState References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> <1CF39914-3C98-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <4414770E-3CA1-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <4414770E-3CA1-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Nottingham wrote: > > Hi Graham, > > Not demand; publishers aren't required to keep them. > > It's also not about previous versions; it's about allowing them to catch > up with entries (or changes to them) that they've missed. > > IMO, this is one of the things that the Atom format can do to > differentiate itself from RSS; it's really important. Please take a look > before making a judgement. I Have This Pattern. 1. I like it,m tho' I don't entirely buy the rationale - not sure if we're chartered for provisioning delivery SLAs. 2. My use case is non-standard, ie it's not blogging. It's for transmitting events of various sorts to a monitoring sink. Events are packed as atom 0.3 feeds. Transmission is done over xmpp. 3. The way it's 'solved' there is not by modelling a linked list with hyperlinks. Each feed representation is given a URI which can be rerequested or resent. They don't change over time. It's sufficiently different from the normal "sliding window" feed usage that I call these things "feed blocks" rather than "feeds". 4. I don't see that working out over HTTP, given that HTTP feeds entities are idiomatically a window onto a continuous stream of events. 5. Eventually, to programmatically retrieve stuff, there would be a feed of feed blocks. That feed would be a sliding window, but sliding at a much slower rate. 6. I agree with Walter's ob about archiving. 7. I think you move into rough terrain when you use 'feed' to imply a logical stream ("delayed list" in sicp speak), as well as whatever the current representation (window) you've been provided width. 8. //atom:head/atom:link[@rel='wholefeed'] strikes me as impractical, given sufficient time and monkeys with blogs. Codifying it would be very useful, but given my use case and the protocol issues I won't push for this (Other than archiving, I haven't had time to think about the implications for http - there are feed/bandwidth ratios to consider, and they made my head hurt last time). I won't be surprised if we see a request to embed this construct into entries themselves. My main ob is that how you do this seems to be aligned to the app protocol in use, as it holds sway over how you model the resources in question. My not so main ob is that over protocols like xmpp and smtp you don't seem to need feeds as much as you do over http. cheers Bill [ot: Danny, I'm still in delivery mode, apologies for not looking at the dates thing yet.] From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 24 06:38:25 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA11769 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:38:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAOBQUVQ089770; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 03:26:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAOBQU8Z089768; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 03:26:30 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail03.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail03.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.19]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iAOBQTNa089575 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 03:26:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 68802 messnum 2054954 invoked from network[83.70.225.10/83-70-225-10.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 24 Nov 2004 11:26:24 -0000 Received: from 83-70-225-10.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?192.168.123.136?) (83.70.225.10) by mail03.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 68802) with SMTP; 24 Nov 2004 11:26:24 -0000 Message-ID: <41A46FD1.7030105@dehora.net> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:26:09 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceFeedState References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> <1CF39914-3C98-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <4414770E-3CA1-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> <41A46BBF.7010300@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: <41A46BBF.7010300@dehora.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill de hÓra wrote: > > Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> >> Hi Graham, >> >> Not demand; publishers aren't required to keep them. >> >> It's also not about previous versions; it's about allowing them to >> catch up with entries (or changes to them) that they've missed. >> >> IMO, this is one of the things that the Atom format can do to >> differentiate itself from RSS; it's really important. Please take a >> look before making a judgement. > > > > I Have This Pattern. > > 1. I like it, [...] > > Codifying it would be very useful, but given my use case and the > protocol issues I won't push for this Gah 'it' means Mark's Pace. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 24 09:45:56 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA28621 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 09:45:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAOEZNLr091141; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:35:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAOEZN9x091140; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:35:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.192]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAOEZIqK091089 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:35:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id g11so149358rne for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:35:20 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=dbvvVx1oW24p7dIqrLnN7HnzJACNhFmKxoc4a8/vcuxjwoyp21Slfw1sbCUHCHDK+Riv8D45gtd/BlDcxrL6ddrw061HY6vvKl2iYVNHesaBpVpVLh8WH8KaNqeljDBnkWCgv7VEJZEXPYvxAGBeE86u8PqZXB5hBBlK6+mXKr8= Received: by 10.38.162.76 with SMTP id k76mr362517rne; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:35:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.151.27 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:35:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3f1451f504112406351c6cf19c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 09:35:19 -0500 From: Joe Gregorio Reply-To: Joe Gregorio To: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: PaceFeedState Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 19:49:19 -0800, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > I've made a proposal to fill in the "Managing Feed State" section; > comments / suggestions appreciated. > > http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceFeedState I like the concept but I believe the Pace goes too far in proscribing client behaviour and also in the complexity of the mechanism. I think a simple in the head of a feed which points to the 'previous' feed would be all that is required. The client can then, at their discretion, keep following 'prev's back until they are satisfied. Leave it up to the client what to do with duplicate entry id's if it encounters them (but note in the Pace that it could happen). The entire discussion of Feed State Model can be dropped, the heart of the Pace being: "To locate previous Atom Feed Documents, consumers can follow the atom:link element in the atom:head with a @rel of "prev", which contains a persistent URI for the previous Atom Feed Document associated with this feed. By following such links progressively backwards and incorporating the changes in each associated Atom Link document, until it encounters a link to a document it already has seen (as identified by the //atom:head/atom:link[@rel='this'] element), a consumer can reconstruct the state of a feed reliably." But I would drop the part about "until it encounters a link to a document it already has seen". That may not be a good metric to go by. For example, what if I have my top level feed with the last 10 items in it, and each feeds 'prev' link points back to the previous 10 entries? That means that if I have 100 entries on my site then I've got 9 'prev' links. http://example.org/feed.cgi?start=100 http://example.org/feed.cgi?start=90 http://example.org/feed.cgi?start=10 Now what if I add another entry to my site, 101. Then I have 10 *new* 'prev' links: http://example.org/feed.cgi?start=101 http://example.org/feed.cgi?start=91 http://example.org/feed.cgi?start=11 http://example.org/feed.cgi?start=1 Not the most efficient mechanism, but certainly plausible and it causes problems with your spidering heuristic. Best leave it up to the client. Thanks, -joe -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 24 11:19:53 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA07290 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:19:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAOG9U1B007214; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:09:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAOG9UH5007213; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:09:30 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.mnot.net (adsl-67-119-69-242.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAOG9QJ4007094 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:09:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [10.0.1.47] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) by mail.mnot.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C63997280; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:09:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <3f1451f504112406351c6cf19c@mail.gmail.com> References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> <3f1451f504112406351c6cf19c@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <36E51D96-3E33-11D9-9D3E-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Atom WG X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham X-Face: }I;hHtiZ43-RK8s{or'?iELJ;!_Mt2|\hW'VcAn*UR#@;4p5@s},~+i=>p})B"gMK%m,`?|Cy>=P/om{?_\aOaPaDMK)TkU_b3]A85YU?A 3iYcf9##+Qu~e(m6w=ot[yfp1G)WXBYGcTM{!EWIB2n/%E@5PjJ_GXq(b2Fq0|#uL{ Subject: Re: PaceFeedState Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:09:26 -0800 To: Joe Gregorio X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Joe, > I think a simple in the head of a feed which points > to the 'previous' feed would be all that is required. The client can > then, at their discretion, keep following 'prev's back until they are > satisfied. Leave it up to the client what to do with duplicate entry > id's if it encounters them (but note in the Pace that it could > happen). > > The entire discussion of Feed State Model can be dropped, the heart of > the Pace being: [...] > But I would drop the part about "until it encounters a link to a > document it already has seen". That may not be a good metric to go by. I disagree. If clients have their own criteria for how far back they should look, or for how they combine the entries they see into a set, they'll act differently, and consistency is important here. One of the biggest complaints I have about RSS is that different aggregators have different concepts of what my feed is. By having a well-specified model of how to reconstruct the feed, as well as a model for what a feed is, we can assure that all consumers see the same set of entries. If we just leave it up to the consumer to decide whether they've seen all of the entries, they'll use heuristics to do it, and they'll fall into traps in figuring it out. I'd rather have one algorithm that's well-tested and known to work. For example, if a client decides that it's satisfied if the set of entries is the same as the last time it saw the feed, it won't go and look one further back. However, what if there were a series of snapshots that looked like this? entry1 entry2 entry3 --- entry4 entry5 entry6 --- entry1 entry2 entry3 A client that only saw the first one would look at the last one and miss the fact that 4,5 and 6 were in the middle. Likewise, if we don't say how to combine entries into a set, clients will use different rules. I actually think we need more guidance here; e.g., how to detect changed entries. > For example, what if I have my top level feed with the last 10 items > in it, and each feeds 'prev' link points back to the previous 10 > entries? That means that if I have 100 entries on my site then I've > got 9 'prev' links. > > http://example.org/feed.cgi?start=100 > http://example.org/feed.cgi?start=90 > http://example.org/feed.cgi?start=10 > > Now what if I add another entry to my site, 101. Then I have 10 *new* > 'prev' links: > > http://example.org/feed.cgi?start=101 > http://example.org/feed.cgi?start=91 > http://example.org/feed.cgi?start=11 > http://example.org/feed.cgi?start=1 > > Not the most efficient mechanism, but certainly plausible and it > causes problems with your spidering heuristic. I agree that this is a problem with the approach I described earlier; thanks for pointing it out. Rather than take that approach, a "fully dynamic" server will need to keep a table in this form; [ 'snapshot15': ['entry111','entry112'], 'snapshot14': ['entry100' ... 'entry110'], ... ] where each snapshot corresponds to a Feed Document Resource (FDR?). Once enough entries is added to the most recent snapshot (15 here), another is created. So, when someone requests the latest feed, it will get a 'this' of http://www.example.com/feeddb?id=snapshot15 and a 'prev' of http://www.example.com/feeddb?id=snapshot14. (Once again, a server doesn't have to keep all of the snapshots back in time) > Best leave it up to the client. I don't think this follows, for reasons explained above. Only the server can determine what a complete set of entries is. Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 24 11:38:17 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA08763 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:38:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAOGV5lL025776; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:31:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAOGV502025775; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:31:05 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.196]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAOGV42H025751 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:31:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id f1so145501rne for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:31:06 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=AK15QshbAXOFMYBmODl3Zt6RN/AdIZzhNF28QfAroUMPtLqDDpTcmIV01+U9X+jiLALJRGS/QgHf19dFByoM6Wdv+oQ6Uaz+mv0iGGtitBxG3w5krJfGeif3zYDAiX+w7d5lZmRrmKGjWG18qPX8i+NfkRTWgA1PlUYKewpBZ3Q= Received: by 10.38.101.77 with SMTP id y77mr405828rnb; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:31:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.151.27 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:31:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3f1451f5041124083128b8234e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:31:06 -0500 From: Joe Gregorio Reply-To: Joe Gregorio To: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: PaceFeedState Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: <36E51D96-3E33-11D9-9D3E-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> <3f1451f504112406351c6cf19c@mail.gmail.com> <36E51D96-3E33-11D9-9D3E-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:09:26 -0800, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Hi Joe, > > > > > I think a simple in the head of a feed which points > > to the 'previous' feed would be all that is required. The client can > > then, at their discretion, keep following 'prev's back until they are > > satisfied. Leave it up to the client what to do with duplicate entry > > id's if it encounters them (but note in the Pace that it could > > happen). > > > > The entire discussion of Feed State Model can be dropped, the heart of > > the Pace being: > [...] > > But I would drop the part about "until it encounters a link to a > > document it already has seen". That may not be a good metric to go by. > > I disagree. If clients have their own criteria for how far back they > should look, or for how they combine the entries they see into a set, > they'll act differently, and consistency is important here. One of the > biggest complaints I have about RSS is that different aggregators have > different concepts of what my feed is. This may be where our point of disagreement hinges on. When I say client I am referring to a much larger range of applications than just 'aggregators'. > By having a well-specified model > of how to reconstruct the feed, as well as a model for what a feed is, > we can assure that all consumers see the same set of entries. > > If we just leave it up to the consumer to decide whether they've seen > all of the entries, they'll use heuristics to do it, and they'll fall > into traps in figuring it out. I'd rather have one algorithm that's > well-tested and known to work. Different aggregators working differently to me isn't such a bad thing. For example, if an item gets updated does the aggregator display the updated item as new? suppress displaying it? display diffs between the versions of the entry? > For example, if a client decides that it's satisfied if the set of > entries is the same as the last time it saw the feed, it won't go and > look one further back. However, what if there were a series of > snapshots that looked like this? > > entry1 > entry2 > entry3 > --- > entry4 > entry5 > entry6 > --- > entry1 > entry2 > entry3 Ok, that veers wildly from what I thought a series of snapshots would look like. I was considering a 'prev' hopping back in time by either week or month. I don't know if the overhead of designing for such a case as you have outlined above is worth the effort. > A client that only saw the first one would look at the last one and > miss the fact that 4,5 and 6 were in the middle. > > Likewise, if we don't say how to combine entries into a set, clients > will use different rules. I actually think we need more guidance here; > e.g., how to detect changed entries. > > > > For example, what if I have my top level feed with the last 10 items > > in it, and each feeds 'prev' link points back to the previous 10 > > entries? That means that if I have 100 entries on my site then I've > > got 9 'prev' links. > > > > http://example.org/feed.cgi?start=100 > > http://example.org/feed.cgi?start=90 > > http://example.org/feed.cgi?start=10 > > > > Now what if I add another entry to my site, 101. Then I have 10 *new* > > 'prev' links: > > > > http://example.org/feed.cgi?start=101 > > http://example.org/feed.cgi?start=91 > > http://example.org/feed.cgi?start=11 > > http://example.org/feed.cgi?start=1 > > > > Not the most efficient mechanism, but certainly plausible and it > > causes problems with your spidering heuristic. > > I agree that this is a problem with the approach I described earlier; > thanks for pointing it out. Rather than take that approach, a "fully > dynamic" server will need to keep a table in this form; > > [ 'snapshot15': ['entry111','entry112'], > 'snapshot14': ['entry100' ... 'entry110'], > ... > ] > > where each snapshot corresponds to a Feed Document Resource (FDR?). > Once enough entries is added to the most recent snapshot (15 here), > another is created. So, when someone requests the latest feed, it will > get a 'this' of http://www.example.com/feeddb?id=snapshot15 and a > 'prev' of http://www.example.com/feeddb?id=snapshot14. > The part about this that makes me nervous is that this seems to be veering closer to atom protocol stuff and not just syndication. -joe -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 24 11:50:42 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA09594 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:50:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAOGeCRT031095; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:40:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAOGeC5k031094; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:40:12 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.mnot.net (adsl-67-119-69-242.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAOGeB0B031036 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:40:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [10.0.1.47] (unknown [63.96.167.195]) by mail.mnot.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F28E7288; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:40:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <3f1451f5041124083128b8234e@mail.gmail.com> References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> <3f1451f504112406351c6cf19c@mail.gmail.com> <36E51D96-3E33-11D9-9D3E-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> <3f1451f5041124083128b8234e@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <8466B7B1-3E37-11D9-9D3E-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Atom WG X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham X-Face: }I;hHtiZ43-RK8s{or'?iELJ;!_Mt2|\hW'VcAn*UR#@;4p5@s},~+i=>p})B"gMK%m,`?|Cy>=P/om{?_\aOaPaDMK)TkU_b3]A85YU?A 3iYcf9##+Qu~e(m6w=ot[yfp1G)WXBYGcTM{!EWIB2n/%E@5PjJ_GXq(b2Fq0|#uL{ Subject: Re: PaceFeedState Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:40:14 -0800 To: Joe Gregorio X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Nov 24, 2004, at 8:31 AM, Joe Gregorio wrote: >> I disagree. If clients have their own criteria for how far back they >> should look, or for how they combine the entries they see into a set, >> they'll act differently, and consistency is important here. One of the >> biggest complaints I have about RSS is that different aggregators have >> different concepts of what my feed is. > > This may be where our point of disagreement hinges on. When I > say client I am referring to a much larger range of applications > than just 'aggregators'. So am I. I'm not talking about differences in how they're displayed in a cosmetic sense, or about the facilities they provide (e.g., sorting, suppressing seen entries, etc.); it's the underlying data model -- and its communication from the server to the client -- that's important. For example, if I use Atom to track changes in CVS, urgent announcements from management, error notifications, system alerts, etc., it's really important that I not miss any entries just because I'm not online for a little while. Likewise, it's important that my aggregator (or other Atom consumer, e.g., a toolkit) not show me duplicate entries, or call an entry 'new' when it is in fact just changed. Finally, it's super-important that if my tool can't avoid missing some entries, it knows that it has, and informs me. >> By having a well-specified model >> of how to reconstruct the feed, as well as a model for what a feed is, >> we can assure that all consumers see the same set of entries. >> >> If we just leave it up to the consumer to decide whether they've seen >> all of the entries, they'll use heuristics to do it, and they'll fall >> into traps in figuring it out. I'd rather have one algorithm that's >> well-tested and known to work. > > Different aggregators working differently to me isn't such a bad > thing. For example, if an item gets updated does the aggregator > display the updated item as new? suppress displaying it? display diffs > between the versions of the entry? I expect that different aggregators will do lots of different things here, and that's fine. However, they need to have the same basis of understanding of what the feed is. > Ok, that veers wildly from what I thought a series of snapshots would > look like. I was considering a 'prev' hopping back in time by either > week or month. I don't know if the overhead of designing for such a > case as you have outlined above is worth the effort. I agree that the case outlined was a corner case, but in practice, it's the corner cases that always catch you. > he part about this that makes me nervous is that this seems to be > veering closer to atom protocol stuff and not just syndication. Well, it's *a* protocol, for what that's worth; the Atom format is already arguably a protocol, because we place requirements on consumers. It's not the Atom Publishing Protocol because it's not about publishing, it's about the feed. Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 24 11:56:48 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA10299 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:56:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAOGlFEg040565; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:47:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAOGlF9r040564; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:47:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.mnot.net (adsl-67-119-69-242.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAOGlEcn040552 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:47:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [10.0.1.47] (unknown [63.96.167.195]) by mail.mnot.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A9557280; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:47:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <41A46BBF.7010300@dehora.net> References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> <1CF39914-3C98-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <4414770E-3CA1-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> <41A46BBF.7010300@dehora.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: <80551E38-3E38-11D9-9D3E-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> Cc: Atom WG X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham X-Face: }I;hHtiZ43-RK8s{or'?iELJ;!_Mt2|\hW'VcAn*UR#@;4p5@s},~+i=>p})B"gMK%m,`?|Cy>=P/om{?_\aOaPaDMK)TkU_b3]A85YU?A 3iYcf9##+Qu~e(m6w=ot[yfp1G)WXBYGcTM{!EWIB2n/%E@5PjJ_GXq(b2Fq0|#uL{ Subject: Re: PaceFeedState Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:47:17 -0800 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id iAOGlEcn040558 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Nov 24, 2004, at 3:08 AM, Bill de hÓra wrote: > 8. //atom:head/atom:link[@rel='wholefeed'] strikes me as impractical, > given sufficient time and monkeys with blogs. Agreed; however, it's optional. I suppose the pertinent question is whether people will find it useful in some cases; otherwise, it probably shouldn't make the cut. > My main ob is that how you do this seems to be aligned to the app > protocol in use, as it holds sway over how you model the resources in > question. My not so main ob is that over protocols like xmpp and smtp > you don't seem to need feeds as much as you do over http. Hmm. It's somewhat aligned, in that it assumes something vaguely RESTful (e.g., HTTP, FTP, etc.). I don't think it precludes other transports, it just isn't as useful on them; this might be clarified by adjusting the text or qualifying the section headings. Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 24 12:12:19 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA11824 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 12:12:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAOH4NDf058705; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 09:04:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAOH4NOH058704; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 09:04:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail10.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail10.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.26]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iAOH4MtZ058606 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 09:04:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 53942 messnum 1953560 invoked from network[83.70.225.10/83-70-225-10.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 24 Nov 2004 17:04:19 -0000 Received: from 83-70-225-10.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?192.168.123.136?) (83.70.225.10) by mail10.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 53942) with SMTP; 24 Nov 2004 17:04:19 -0000 Message-ID: <41A4BF07.3070308@dehora.net> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:04:07 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceFeedState References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> <1CF39914-3C98-11D9-A142-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <4414770E-3CA1-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> <41A46BBF.7010300@dehora.net> <80551E38-3E38-11D9-9D3E-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <80551E38-3E38-11D9-9D3E-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mark Nottingham wrote: > > On Nov 24, 2004, at 3:08 AM, Bill de hÓra wrote: > >> 8. //atom:head/atom:link[@rel='wholefeed'] strikes me as impractical, >> given sufficient time and monkeys with blogs. > > > Agreed; however, it's optional. I missed that; no objections from me then. i would have no objections to @rels that specced a date range or a since date. >> My main ob is that how you do this seems to be aligned to the app >> protocol in use, as it holds sway over how you model the resources in >> question. My not so main ob is that over protocols like xmpp and smtp >> you don't seem to need feeds as much as you do over http. > > > Hmm. It's somewhat aligned, in that it assumes something vaguely RESTful > (e.g., HTTP, FTP, etc.). I don't think it precludes other transports, it > just isn't as useful on them; this might be clarified by adjusting the > text or qualifying the section headings. That's fair. I've had a chance to let it soak in some more... I'd need to write code but I don't seen any big problems with the approach for non-http, esp. xmpp - maybe Bob Wyman might have something to say about it. +1 to this Pace. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 24 14:21:58 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA21497 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 14:21:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAOJ8nY7079416; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:08:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAOJ8nMl079415; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:08:49 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.197]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAOJ8ifq079322 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:08:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rogben@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 71so126763wri for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:08:40 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=rTgQnF4cQI5JRagrxgtiDSTdP8W+t3xTWCKH90hGGoGB+j0AV5M4BVYwRCUTzCXlOt5rRIfMX2Fs+R7tJy9DwxHPw6z7LyCBamAFzp540MlR0SO+CkQwXvLBtShlrAyJJhe6/TTp6TmmmB21Ocf+r/eLJZNBe+E26utMKSpfoOI= Received: by 10.54.4.9 with SMTP id 9mr346544wrd; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:06:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.18.58 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:06:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <540e3732041124110617309b19@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 13:06:37 -0600 From: "Roger B." Reply-To: "Roger B." To: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: PaceFeedState Cc: atom-syntax@mail.imc.org In-Reply-To: <191205A0-3C3D-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> <00d801c4cf86$7b30a790$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> <006f01c4cfef$a83b04b0$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> <00d601c4d014$23438f50$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> <191205A0-3C3D-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Rather than presupposing what developers are going to > do, I'd rather get feedback from those people directly. Mark: FWIW, I've always had prev/next traversal enabled. This gets the latest entries in my blog: http://support.journurl.com/users/admin/ ...and this gets the five previous entries: http://support.journurl.com/users/admin/?month=11-01-2004&time=20:14:57 ...and this gets the five before that: http://support.journurl.com/users/admin/index.cfm?month=10-27-2004&time=15:32:52 So ignoring any broader implications, I don't have an immediate problem with the stuff you're describing. > If I publish a feed, I want my consumers to see the entire information > channel, not portions of it. That's a huge benefit. Not to those who only want their feed to serve as a source of update notifications. Of course, those folks are well-served by RSS, so maybe their usage isn't a big issue. -- Roger Benningfield blog: http://admin.support.journurl.com/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 24 14:34:10 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA22263 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 14:34:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAOJSPjZ002841; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:28:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAOJSPVF002840; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:28:25 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.mnot.net (adsl-67-119-69-242.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAOJSNuG002778 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:28:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [10.0.1.47] (unknown [63.96.167.195]) by mail.mnot.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C17B7280 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:28:27 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <0412CEB2-3E4F-11D9-9D3E-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham X-Face: }I;hHtiZ43-RK8s{or'?iELJ;!_Mt2|\hW'VcAn*UR#@;4p5@s},~+i=>p})B"gMK%m,`?|Cy>=P/om{?_\aOaPaDMK)TkU_b3]A85YU?A 3iYcf9##+Qu~e(m6w=ot[yfp1G)WXBYGcTM{!EWIB2n/%E@5PjJ_GXq(b2Fq0|#uL{ Subject: PaceFeedState server-side proof-of-concept implementation Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:28:27 -0800 To: Atom WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI, I've put 'this' and 'prev' elements on my RSS feed as a proof-of-concept on the server side; see http://www.mnot.net/blog/index.rdf This was done with templates only on stock Moveable Type 2.6. -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 24 15:17:01 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA26362 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 15:17:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAOK8aFm051361; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 12:08:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAOK8aBq051360; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 12:08:36 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from relay02.pair.com (relay02.pair.com [209.68.5.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iAOK8ZSf051336 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 12:08:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from iand@internetalchemy.org) Received: (qmail 15669 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2004 20:08:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.10.10.81?) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 24 Nov 2004 20:08:39 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 213.104.222.215 Message-ID: <41A4EA4D.6080005@internetalchemy.org> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:08:45 +0000 From: Ian Davis User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom WG Subject: Re: PaceFeedState server-side proof-of-concept implementation References: <0412CEB2-3E4F-11D9-9D3E-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <0412CEB2-3E4F-11D9-9D3E-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 24/11/2004 19:28, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > FYI, I've put 'this' and 'prev' elements on my RSS feed as a > proof-of-concept on the server side; see > http://www.mnot.net/blog/index.rdf Do you think state:next would be useful on e.g. http://www.mnot.net/blog/2004/10/index.rdf Ian From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 24 16:05:44 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA02260 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:05:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAOKvch6007795; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 12:57:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAOKvcM8007794; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 12:57:38 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.203]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAOKvcMY007772 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 12:57:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so48061rns for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 12:57:36 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=pUDjx+qhOXSVvUe38tbhofr3PSpSz0hXa/gCAZvDwrQf9xLeYo9YIobidMsmtQ5fvHUZOIf6GCGCdDuwKq4s6Xt3+0Mlgju0j/KylyRITXGxJPrS2ytNfhXMmHVE6WYPf58rGkkKveEfa7CwYEOLyvt09jtQp1qoA50TkjBHdPg= Received: by 10.38.179.47 with SMTP id b47mr350065rnf; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 12:57:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.52 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 12:57:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04112412574d96bc4f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:57:35 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: PaceFeedState server-side proof-of-concept implementation Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: <0412CEB2-3E4F-11D9-9D3E-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <0412CEB2-3E4F-11D9-9D3E-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I need to think some more about the idea of multiple feeds as static files, it does seem to be moving away from "It's the Entries", though I can't actually see any real problem with that: "It's the Entries" => "the packaging don't matter". Now then... > FYI, I've put 'this' and 'prev' elements on my RSS feed as a > proof-of-concept on the server side; see > http://www.mnot.net/blog/index.rdf ...ok, proven at server side, now what might a client do with the data? (As it's RSS, something driven by Sparql queries might perhaps make a good demo..?) Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 24 17:11:23 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA08352 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:11:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAOM2aIM001013; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 14:02:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAOM2a3x000993; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 14:02:36 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.193]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAOM2TX6000678 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 14:02:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rogben@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 50so249449wri for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 14:02:29 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=P79kCTVFaVuspbDH5XQn43gYRR9h6JQyKJ1WieTgz6ZFUpnqvbFbFt69dLS/X4Lf4iC7ZuOuoH3HJ857lxOQ/gVn76TKBVaM8hRpJV7Il27Ugzd54JQ5cTyKe6LvoEwHmJhg+xaXjkaxSIkTZadeEzfN0YJPVw+6Ep5ViA0oFho= Received: by 10.54.33.42 with SMTP id g42mr494101wrg; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 14:01:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.18.58 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 14:01:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <540e3732041124140143749742@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:01:00 -0600 From: "Roger B." Reply-To: "Roger B." To: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: PaceFeedState server-side proof-of-concept implementation Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: <0412CEB2-3E4F-11D9-9D3E-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <0412CEB2-3E4F-11D9-9D3E-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark: Here's another one. As you follow the state:prev elements backward, state:next elements will automatically appear to help you crawl back up. http://support.journurl.com/users/admin/?template=rss-full -- Roger On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:28:27 -0800, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > FYI, I've put 'this' and 'prev' elements on my RSS feed as a > proof-of-concept on the server side; see > http://www.mnot.net/blog/index.rdf > > This was done with templates only on stock Moveable Type 2.6. > > -- > Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 25 02:51:30 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA10018 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 02:51:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAP7c1Co009579; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 23:38:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAP7c1Of009578; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 23:38:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAP7c08W009465 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 23:38:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from quark (58.80-202-95.nextgentel.com [80.202.95.58]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40BAE5D19; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:37:53 +0100 (MET) To: "Tim Bray" Cc: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: Work Queue Rotation #13 References: Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:39:47 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera M2/7.60 (Win32, build 7321) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:10:48 -0800, Tim Bray wrote: > PaceFieldingLinks: > ** I believe this has rough consensus and should be accepted. +1. If this proves to be a really bad idea (which I don't think it will), we have at least tried an extension mechanism for links. As it stands now, we haven't yet tried anything, simply because everyone doesn't agree on one single mechanism. Let's try this one out first, and if it proves to be as stupid as base jumping without a parachute, we'll have to come up with something better. I have been thinking, though, that what the idea is almost equal to, is a default attribute. I thought of this when I read the category proposals; particularly the @scheme attribute. We could say that all links have a default @scheme attribute with the value of 'http://www.iana.org/assignments/relation/'. Moving the default URI into an attribute gives a clearer separation of how to parse the construct, but might obfuscate things. Using 'xml:base' could probably work better, but I haven't really thought very hard about it. Just my two cents. > PaceHeadInEntry > ** I'm inclined to say this has rough consensus; will need some > application of editorial judgment. Fine with me. > PaceLinkByLocation > ** Close it > > PaceLinkRelPrefixReg > ** Close it > > PaceMetaElement > ** Close it No problem for me. -- Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- http://virtuelvis.com/quark/ «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 25 20:45:12 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA05671 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 20:45:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAQ1SCPj073543; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 17:28:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAQ1SCt6073542; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 17:28:12 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAQ1S7B3073427 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 17:28:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iAQ1RdlE021894; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 01:27:50 GMT In-Reply-To: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-1-718691916; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <5C9B4AD4-3F4A-11D9-BC56-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Cc: Atom WG From: Graham Subject: Re: PaceFeedState Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 01:27:39 +0000 To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-1-718691916 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, what's the definition of "whole feed"? You're not seriously suggesting aggregators that don't automatically download 10 years of archives are in the wrong? Graham --Apple-Mail-1-718691916 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMTI2MDEyNzM5WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUjMvGCnfb8kAaqzIjUgu40tOe 8yYweAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEA2rgcQJ5evbW/v0Eo1I3dzq55 QuFuki6xgaZuLroxDlzq6lyhqnX61umpwROqo+cdxoSvctnv5doIiUUdy5W3DysPFcgsQ8KgDK3s 0/P4xw9dqu/BmkCL2ozNGA5TtiIF0gjwFRAmIpb+eivyNGSPnoK9m/h674vi1NocRYyEdYGNbY4G Y3vdydUlM9BleVIDitjJxKPfqvW+7RF9ot3GcOF2vrCh5bLwQKGDpNVNRNYeCFXmYFMhLjU6mhAe kfU8KIfXqyz5SE4+xe2uUfPWnvDtRCOQdFKRUREnOu0vLvh6uTWBpOOg4u50FtMVcB92+Bo6ks0m jvSNpQYcElCj2QAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-1-718691916-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 26 00:42:51 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA25086 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 00:42:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAQ5U9ec023274; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 21:30:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAQ5U9Qb023273; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 21:30:09 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.mnot.net (adsl-67-119-69-242.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAQ5U59u023145 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 21:30:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [10.0.1.48] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) by mail.mnot.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50512728B; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 21:30:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <5C9B4AD4-3F4A-11D9-BC56-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> <5C9B4AD4-3F4A-11D9-BC56-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <3D9C63BC-3F6C-11D9-9D3E-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Atom WG X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham X-Face: }I;hHtiZ43-RK8s{or'?iELJ;!_Mt2|\hW'VcAn*UR#@;4p5@s},~+i=>p})B"gMK%m,`?|Cy>=P/om{?_\aOaPaDMK)TkU_b3]A85YU?A 3iYcf9##+Qu~e(m6w=ot[yfp1G)WXBYGcTM{!EWIB2n/%E@5PjJ_GXq(b2Fq0|#uL{ Subject: Re: PaceFeedState Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 21:30:10 -0800 To: Graham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham, There is nothing in the proposal that requires sites to make all entries available, nor is there anything that requires clients to download them all. On Nov 25, 2004, at 5:27 PM, Graham wrote: > Mark, what's the definition of "whole feed"? You're not seriously > suggesting aggregators that don't automatically download 10 years of > archives are in the wrong? > > Graham -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 26 10:42:07 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA20021 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 10:42:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAQFP50C089784; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 07:25:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAQFP5BD089779; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 07:25:05 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from xbox.wkearney.com (xbox.wkearney.com [66.92.145.79]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAQFOxq6089408 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 07:25:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wkearney@syndic8.com) Received: from media (media.wkearney.com [192.168.12.32]) by xbox.wkearney.com (Postfix) with SMTP id CB1E8BC8B4 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 10:24:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <019c01c4d3cc$11bc03a0$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> From: "Bill Kearney" Cc: "Atom WG" References: <52FEA41A-3B70-11D9-A3C1-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> <5C9B4AD4-3F4A-11D9-BC56-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <3D9C63BC-3F6C-11D9-9D3E-000A95BD86C0@mnot.net> Subject: Re: PaceFeedState Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 10:24:48 -0500 Organization: http://www.ideaspace.net/users/wkearney/foaf.xrdf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There is nothing in the proposal that requires sites to make all > entries available, nor is there anything that requires clients to > download them all. FUD aside, there is something to be said for clearing up the confusion about what's a feed and how tools are expected to use as well as NOT use them. That a source has a 'current items' docuemt that models RSS is what I think most people are going to consider a "feed". That it might contain indicators on how to retrieve a "previous" instance of itself and/or a range of additional (if not all) entries seems to be what you're proposing. The "prev" examples seem like reasonable ideas. How a tool should "walk" itself back over them it certainly something worth establishing some clear practices on doing. As in, let's avoid the insanity of feeds without timestamps and the like. Let something that has the 'current' feed detect and retrieve the 'prev' document and perhaps use timestamps to assure that it is or isn't 'later' that what is known locally. As an aside, I can see real headaches for many current feed handling tools in dealing with previous quantities of items. They'll need to change and it may not be pleasant for them. That said, for a reader to be able to walk back through the entries would be a very good feature. Should a site want to provide it, that is. As to how a consumer of a feed should branch out an use some larger set of if not all, entries is something worth discussing. The idea of some half-baked feed tool mercilessly polling a wholefeed URI every hour, on the hour, is a nightmare we'd really do well to avoid. -Bill Kearney Syndic8.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 26 13:28:56 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA06371 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 13:28:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAQIH59F072196; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 10:17:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iAQIH40G072168; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 10:17:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAQIH1SS072103 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 10:17:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAQIH5un008292 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 11:17:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I7S005ADTGG8S@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 11:17:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.6] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0I7S00KLGTFRTS@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 11:17:04 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 10:17:13 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Report from last week's Hackathon To: "'Atom WG'" Message-id: <65669094-3FD7-11D9-8B8F-000A95A51C9E@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I'd sent an initial draft to Paul & Sam, but then forgot to follow up. These are notes that represent my personal take-aways and are obviously not binding on anybody. ==================================================================== 1. We need another face-to-face at which some of the big implementors are present. This should be an interopathon, obviously with open attendance, but focused on those who are going to implement the Atom protocol. We envision January in California. Whether or not this is an "official interim meeting" of the Atom WG is an open question, but we should get together. 2. We contemplate the idea of producing two drafts to cover the Atom Publishing Protocol. The first, "Atom Publishing Protocol Basic" would cover introspection, collections, and entry creation/update/deletion; the second, "Atom Publishing Protocol Administration" would cover category and user management. The idea is that a minimal client that doesn't want to manage a weblog, just to publish, could implement only Basic. Maybe WebDAV is just the ticket for Administration. 3. We considered creating another XML namespace for APP XML markup (say "pub:") and inventing a element which could be included in an entry that's being POSTed or PUT, to contain stuff like trackbacks and comments and draft/published. The idea is that it would be consumeed by the publishing system and not go into the feed. This would be a good place for blogging-system vendors to put proprietary magic. However, we would predefine some commonly-used controls per Brent Simmons' recent postings. Thus my PacePubControl. 4. We sketched out syntax (with rough Paces) for the introspection file and the collections. I started implementing the collections on 'ongoing'. 5. There are several different types of collections: entries, non-entry resources (e.g. pictures), categories, users, templates. We suggest a PaceFieldingLinks style setup for collection types with these well-known values, but people can have other types identified by arbitrary URI. 6. We have two alternate views of how a client could traverse a collection. One (for which there's a Pace already) is ultra-simple, you just get a list of items, plus a "Next" pointer to get the next chunk. It would be nice to have the total size of the collection as an attribute on the root so you know how far you have to go. Alternately, you could have a setup where the top-level of the collection presents as a bunch of folders that you can traverse to, this enables random-access. Bray leans to the simplest one, Sayre to the folder approach, he'll write a Pace. Everyone agrees both will work. 7. Joe Gregorio gave a very well-received presentation on the Atom Publishing Protocol, he's going to clean up the slides and publish them [he did] and I think they'll be a valuable community resource. 8. We had some good argument about must-understand and I browbeat Joe about how inexpensive it was and how it might be useful, but he keeps saying "nobody has ever needed it so far." I still like the idea but suspect it's a lost cause. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 29 07:25:38 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA12376 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:25:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iATC4OPi001329; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 04:04:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iATC4OLg001328; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 04:04:24 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts10.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.54]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iATC4NQT001275 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 04:04:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kier@sdf1.net) Received: from [192.168.1.101] ([67.70.38.27]) by tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with ESMTP id <20041129120424.CPYQ1863.tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net@[192.168.1.101]> for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:04:24 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Ray Slakinski Subject: Atom Enclosures Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:04:20 -0500 X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.0.2 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hello all, As some of you may know, 'podcasting' is all the rage, it uses a tag called enclosure which is part of the RSS spec to distribute the content. Basically the tag has a link to either a bittorrent file or audio file which a client like iPodderX (I'm a co-developer for) reads then works on accordingly. But the people that write software like iPodderX are running into a brick wall with RSS, and I now turn to Atom for assistance. The biggest issue with enclosure that although the spec doesn't say one way or another you can not really do more than one enclosure per item. The reason this is a problem is that in a lot of cases a publisher wishes to provide a link to the mp3 file and the torrent file. If the torrent fails to download it or does not support bittorrent it fails back to the direct link. Or they want to provide notes to the show in text form or opml. It only makes sense to group them under the item tag instead of breaking them out one entry at a time. In Atom I've been made aware of the tag, which would work very much like the RSS enclosure, but also has the same restrictions as its only good for one per item. I'm hoping that since Atom is not final yet, that we can possibly see value in either extending the content tag or creating some sort of attachment/enclosure tag that allows for more than one per entry. August and I worked on an RSS module to do something similar, but I've never liked modules for all kinds of reasons; Anyways, here is the spec: http://ipodderx.com/podcastRSSModule [-----] Ray Slakinski Fingerprint: C8AD 4847 2DA8 3469 079D 13F9 135D F0CF 1CFC FD03 Blog: http://ddll.sdf1.net Mencken and Nathan's Ninth Law of The Average American: The quality of a champagne is judged by the amount of noise the cork makes when it is popped. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iEYEARECAAYFAkGrEEUACgkQE13wzxz8/QMnSQCfRt70OUP/BDDUuq5PS0v+3kd7 zDMAnjoMtVZkiEX29S91V7QAgQIzJorV =blCW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 29 10:12:45 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA28977 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:12:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iATF1Hf9095017; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:01:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iATF1HJv095016; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:01:17 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.sdf1.net (anakim.1meg.golden.net [216.75.172.104]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iATF0ie9094592 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:00:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kier@sdf1.net) Received: from [10.0.22.13] (unknown [209.167.45.254]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.sdf1.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78A8F29C19 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:00:47 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <669A912E-4217-11D9-84CD-0003934E27E8@sdf1.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ray Slakinski Subject: Re: Atom Enclosures Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:00:25 -0500 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.0.2 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 - - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I actually stand corrected from the spec document: "The "atom:content" element is a Content construct that conveys the content of the entry. atom:entry elements MAY contain one or more atom:content elements." I could also use links as Eric suggested, but there is one last hurdle with either of these two tags. In terms of what we do with podcasting a publisher puts his mp3 file into an enclosure tag (sorry for the RSS speak) we find that file and download it, we log the url so make sure if another site points to said file that we do not download it again. It turns out this isn't best practice as the url may change or be mirrored rendering that level of tracking useless. Hence in our RSS module we introduces a GUID of sorts so the url/filename could change but the GUID should remain the same to indicate to a client that the content is the same thing, so don't bother downloading it again. Sorry for putting all this new info out to you, I just wanted to give some background on what we have been discussing in RSS land for over a month so I can catch you guys up on it all. [-----] Ray Slakinski Fingerprint: C8AD 4847 2DA8 3469 079D 13F9 135D F0CF 1CFC FD03 Blog: http://ddll.sdf1.net Let us live!!! Let us love!!! Let us share the deepest secrets of our souls!!! You first. On 29-Nov-04, at 7:04 AM, Ray Slakinski wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hello all, > > As some of you may know, 'podcasting' is all the rage, it uses a tag > called enclosure which is part of the RSS spec to distribute the > content. > > Basically the tag has a link to either a bittorrent file or audio file > which a client like iPodderX (I'm a co-developer for) reads then works > on accordingly. But the people that write software like iPodderX are > running into a brick wall with RSS, and I now turn to Atom for > assistance. > > The biggest issue with enclosure that although the spec doesn't say > one way or another you can not really do more than one enclosure per > item. The reason this is a problem is that in a lot of cases a > publisher wishes to provide a link to the mp3 file and the torrent > file. If the torrent fails to download it or does not support > bittorrent it fails back to the direct link. Or they want to provide > notes to the show in text form or opml. It only makes sense to group > them under the item tag instead of breaking them out one entry at a > time. > > In Atom I've been made aware of the type="whatever"> tag, which would work very much like the RSS > enclosure, but also has the same restrictions as its only good for one > per item. I'm hoping that since Atom is not final yet, that we can > possibly see value in either extending the content tag or creating > some sort of attachment/enclosure tag that allows for more than one > per entry. > > August and I worked on an RSS module to do something similar, but I've > never liked modules for all kinds of reasons; Anyways, here is the > spec: http://ipodderx.com/podcastRSSModule > > [-----] > Ray Slakinski > Fingerprint: C8AD 4847 2DA8 3469 079D 13F9 135D F0CF 1CFC FD03 > > Blog: http://ddll.sdf1.net > > Mencken and Nathan's Ninth Law of The Average American: > The quality of a champagne is judged by the amount of noise the > cork makes when it is popped. > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > iEYEARECAAYFAkGrEEUACgkQE13wzxz8/QMnSQCfRt70OUP/BDDUuq5PS0v+3kd7 > zDMAnjoMtVZkiEX29S91V7QAgQIzJorV > =blCW > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > - - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iEYEARECAAYFAkGrOW8ACgkQE13wzxz8/QMUxACePysGpZkheIFLug1R4GxfHzHa v6IAnibSXsKwIFygu3jkQaDZyv0niQDu =5VJh - - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- [-----] Ray Slakinski Fingerprint: C8AD 4847 2DA8 3469 079D 13F9 135D F0CF 1CFC FD03 Blog: http://ddll.sdf1.net There once was a girl named Irene Who lived on distilled kerosene But she started absorbin' A new hydrocarbon And since then has never benzene. - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iEYEARECAAYFAkGrOYQACgkQE13wzxz8/QMbwwCeIvsbTbhxhhqCbTO8e5L1gHHL X6gAnAo3Ynp34GVyiyZLPQW9p4aptyp9 =ZkZb - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- [-----] Ray Slakinski Fingerprint: C8AD 4847 2DA8 3469 079D 13F9 135D F0CF 1CFC FD03 Blog: http://ddll.sdf1.net USER, n.: The word computer professionals use when they mean "idiot." -- Dave Barry, "Claw Your Way to the Top" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iEYEARECAAYFAkGrOYoACgkQE13wzxz8/QOs8gCeJjSruU1RGff2MppoTYuxSEwX g8sAn0edOCLUr0JLX9Izglw/S+rlJNmk =k9DC -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----