From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 2 14:24:02 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA20075 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 14:24:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB2J4Zfd079132; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 11:04:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iB2J4ZhK079131; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 11:04:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chromium.sabren.com (chromium.sabren.com [69.20.61.177]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB2J4UkG078970 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 11:04:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (rdu57-27-065.nc.rr.com [66.57.27.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by chromium.sabren.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iB2J4jmV013196 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 14:04:46 -0500 Message-ID: <41AF672A.60106@intertwingly.net> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 14:04:10 -0500 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040803 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom-Syntax Subject: New AtomPubIssuesList for 2004/12/02 References: <412B23C4.9010602@intertwingly.net> <4130E11B.3000600@intertwingly.net> <41546A46.60507@intertwingly.net> <4166C99A.4040603@intertwingly.net> <41812CA8.6090501@intertwingly.net> <4198C7F6.7040606@intertwingly.net> In-Reply-To: <4198C7F6.7040606@intertwingly.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Let's see if we can fold some of the Protocol Design Team's outputs back into this process... Technical issue, format: PaceCategoryElement - recommended for closure PaceCategoryRevised - let's see if there is consensus on this Technical issues, protocol: PaceIntrospection - seems stable enough PaceCollectionIdiom - first step into a contentious issue Procedural issues, protocol: PaceProblemStatements - process for suggestions PaceTwoProtocolDocs - rescoping the workgroup - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 2 17:25:22 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA06532 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 17:25:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB2MB9EF033884; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 14:11:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iB2MB9DJ033880; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 14:11:09 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.195]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB2MB7tZ033742 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 14:11:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rogben@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 68so121391wri for ; Thu, 02 Dec 2004 14:11:06 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=nzyZVof20BoPz3bNbHduuXPJtgj3w+Iycpu1wRvY2xrwkjFqrYsmBma9V33Tyv2lRg2KNsjDYZ/GOSD8X+OwVnVgQ3zDsXzWPp/x+gpTUOqoVnfek5v9bZ2xjJ4KU3oq9DV49zmU8w+ShHBLDP81l5/1/5sYdNYgdKoXfvM8q8U= Received: by 10.54.31.7 with SMTP id e7mr1499455wre; Thu, 02 Dec 2004 14:11:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.18.58 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 14:11:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <540e3732041202141158826a7b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 16:11:06 -0600 From: "Roger B." Reply-To: "Roger B." To: Atom-Syntax Subject: PaceCategoryRevised In-Reply-To: <41AF672A.60106@intertwingly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <412B23C4.9010602@intertwingly.net> <4130E11B.3000600@intertwingly.net> <41546A46.60507@intertwingly.net> <4166C99A.4040603@intertwingly.net> <41812CA8.6090501@intertwingly.net> <4198C7F6.7040606@intertwingly.net> <41AF672A.60106@intertwingly.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > let's see if there is consensus on this Works for me. +1 -- Roger Benningfield blog: http://admin.support.journurl.com/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Dec 7 19:20:29 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA19602 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2004 19:20:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB802Jga010780; Tue, 7 Dec 2004 16:02:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iB802JWa010779; Tue, 7 Dec 2004 16:02:19 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB802DJL010582 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2004 16:02:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CbpHT-0001M8-GN; Wed, 08 Dec 2004 00:02:07 +0000 Message-ID: <41B6447F.7060806@franklinmint.fm> Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 19:02:07 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Roger B." CC: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised References: <412B23C4.9010602@intertwingly.net> <4130E11B.3000600@intertwingly.net> <41546A46.60507@intertwingly.net> <4166C99A.4040603@intertwingly.net> <41812CA8.6090501@intertwingly.net> <4198C7F6.7040606@intertwingly.net> <41AF672A.60106@intertwingly.net> <540e3732041202141158826a7b@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <540e3732041202141158826a7b@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roger B. wrote: >>let's see if there is consensus on this >> >> > >Works for me. +1 > > Hey, sure. +1. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Dec 7 20:26:06 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA26187 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2004 20:26:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB81FvC2091965; Tue, 7 Dec 2004 17:15:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iB81FvuZ091964; Tue, 7 Dec 2004 17:15:57 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.198]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB81Fujf091849 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2004 17:15:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id y7so590690rne for ; Tue, 07 Dec 2004 17:15:59 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ubQiRULqhTMx8ADtbQdwOd2h0aGQ53l+9KCk7DeLdGrplbmS9teqnHRBGGfbtlm7S3obuGEX/bwwHjGax99/t+zXCdghZ0W/Eg6ihzq10UMz+8XaE+F3Ifi8GxT6XDEQK/J6djNUX7HVM2qXU/Gcl7J3e6EGJPjpdbP3l5i0HLk= Received: by 10.38.150.8 with SMTP id x8mr117878rnd; Tue, 07 Dec 2004 17:15:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.89.48 with HTTP; Tue, 7 Dec 2004 17:15:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2bcdc7c40412071715161d3160@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 17:15:58 -0800 From: James Snell Reply-To: James Snell To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Potential Issue: Section 4.2.2 atom:link Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reading through the current draft I note that in section 4.2.2 referring to the atom:link element, there is the following restriction: atom:head elements MUST NOT contain more than one atom:link element with a rel attribute value of "alternate" that has the same type attribute value. My question is: what if I want to offer two alternates of the same type that use different languages? e.g. I'm not sure if this is an unreasonable thing to do or not but it did strike me as being potentially problematic. -- - James Snell jasnell@gmail.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Dec 7 23:20:26 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA11486 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2004 23:20:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB845ISo034455; Tue, 7 Dec 2004 20:05:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iB845IAP034454; Tue, 7 Dec 2004 20:05:18 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk ([161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB845D7c033782 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2004 20:05:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iB8443Es027496 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 04:04:13 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) To: Atom WG Message-Id: <32CECCCA-48CE-11D9-823E-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-4--382607823; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" From: Graham Subject: Priorities in Atom? Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 04:04:03 +0000 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-4--382607823 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had a random idea the other day that priorities would be a really useful thing to have in Atom. Now I'm aware of how useless they are in email, but syndication is much less open to abuse. One of the things that bugs me about using a newsreader is that all items are the same size and the same emphasis, yet if you go somewhere like news.bbc.co.uk, someone's carefully planned out the relative sizes of each story. This would make newspaper-style view that some readers offer much more useful, and would also allow sites that present an overview of all feeds the ability to show the top story for each one rather than just the latest. Emphasizing that the priority number is only valid relative to items in the same feed should stop most abuse. Anyone interested? Graham --Apple-Mail-4--382607823 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMjA4MDQwNDAzWjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUN9mTdDCmpTFCBliB9MZQhJaY PxMweAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEADuvQhTpcBpgaIIrU2Bk1LQal D39XuNNKTx1/5udH+QJsmyNqc/WJhnw7sJIFCiyzweva38b+FPovVOLJpK8j1v0UV2Lho0/XTEFC tyUPfYwy7vbX/OaS0s3RODMNxZTp4VnABE+21sjpgATHZNxjsMEKCZjXsuaqjRsCSXX4cZlh1TF5 stwYjH5HFPKY/zIwUd161h1pKs3/TTuhjf0VtYg4ZlAnRVaWJxpR29/4Blbrg747/qPdl7sTfNDY EM1T7PSJjhdQ8ydYN0lVyHLiZco4QilwEqTMZ2rqoknkuijTFX6dv8jfye6EjqaVciqIkgzzUWSt Vj2A6SwKPF1KsAAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-4--382607823-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Dec 8 04:53:21 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA07854 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 04:53:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB89ZvoS046827; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 01:35:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iB89Zvl9046826; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 01:35:57 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr3.netsolmail.com (omr3.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.164]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB89ZtQv046682 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 01:35:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr3.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iB89Znmm005596; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 04:35:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from boblaptop (68-174-167-137.nyc.rr.com [68.174.167.137]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id CBV59327; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 04:35:49 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200412080935.CBV59327@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Graham'" , "'Atom WG'" Subject: RE: Priorities in Atom? Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 04:35:48 -0500 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: <32CECCCA-48CE-11D9-823E-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcTc3rH5HaaXPHXxQmuHonxjJ8u+5wAKVaQg Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > priorities would be a really useful thing to have in Atom There are many useful values that could be associated with either a feed or an entry. Rather then focusing on one of them I think we would be best served by created methods to express classes of them in a predictable way. For instance: 1. At PubSub, we would like to insert the "PubSub LinkRank" into items that we publish. This would allow newsreaders to sort entries based on the LinkRank of their sources. 2. It might be interesting to allow entries or feeds to carry the current "value" of the feed as listed on the BlogShares.com exchange. Newsreaders might find this useful for sorting/filtering, etc. 3. I'd like to insert geo-tags of some sort. 4. After doing classification of the content of an entry, we'd like to insert the results into the entry. i.e. indicate which DMOZ classification our classifier thinks the entry falls under. Etc. Most of these things could be quite nicely handled by a simple "tag/value" structure. Something like: 333 $33.03 politics very_high Let's focus on the mechanism for communicating properties rather then the specific properties that are to be communicated. bob wyman -----Original Message----- From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Graham Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:04 PM To: Atom WG Subject: Priorities in Atom? I had a random idea the other day that priorities would be a really useful thing to have in Atom. Now I'm aware of how useless they are in email, but syndication is much less open to abuse. One of the things that bugs me about using a newsreader is that all items are the same size and the same emphasis, yet if you go somewhere like news.bbc.co.uk, someone's carefully planned out the relative sizes of each story. This would make newspaper-style view that some readers offer much more useful, and would also allow sites that present an overview of all feeds the ability to show the top story for each one rather than just the latest. Emphasizing that the priority number is only valid relative to items in the same feed should stop most abuse. Anyone interested? Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Dec 8 05:59:09 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA12855 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 05:59:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB8Al3FK027967; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 02:47:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iB8Al37T027966; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 02:47:03 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.201]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB8Al2G4027931 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 02:47:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so133504rnz for ; Wed, 08 Dec 2004 02:46:58 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=LfnSPCCE5hw8uU3+NGAfYTb70KvVQ3pAeVkPAlQ18pRPqx8yVuzTLemtykWNtH2KnO14Mj+mzxXfU5ozRFIf+J55N6IaKVJLby8ZLu/Bw/IbOM5g8SkhzCFWD8hBHSlF1NuVJ4mql6jHZ08S6ojSnQnIb0YaLM/nYQmGHNWbCkc= Received: by 10.38.8.44 with SMTP id 44mr354677rnh; Wed, 08 Dec 2004 02:46:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.52 with HTTP; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 02:46:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0412080246570206d9@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 11:46:58 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: bob@wyman.us Subject: Re: Priorities in Atom? Cc: Graham , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <200412080935.CBV59327@ms8.netsolmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <32CECCCA-48CE-11D9-823E-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <200412080935.CBV59327@ms8.netsolmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 04:35:48 -0500, Bob Wyman wrote: > Most of these things could be quite nicely handled by a simple > "tag/value" structure. Something like: > > 333 > $33.03 > politics > very_high They could be handled this way, but as it stands there isn't any way of recognising the properties in an unambiguous fashion. I don't think a centralized registry is the answer either. But if there was a simple generalized interpretation of material from other namespaces, we can remove ambiguity and use the XML more like, errm, XML: e.g. 333 ... The spec could contain words to the effect that elements like this SHOULD be interpreted as a named property of the enclosing entry, the value being the child text node. The use of namespaces will avoid clashes, so this won't be interpreted as the same thing as 333. > Let's focus on the mechanism for communicating properties rather > then the specific properties that are to be communicated. Yes please. I'd favour something like Robert's PacePropertyDesign (which would probably find it's way to consensus without the RDF references). Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Dec 8 10:29:22 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA05528 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 10:29:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB8FETpL013886; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 07:14:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iB8FETnn013885; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 07:14:29 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB8FESYo013744 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 07:14:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iB8FDT0h025475; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 15:13:35 GMT In-Reply-To: <200412080935.CBV59327@ms8.netsolmail.com> References: <200412080935.CBV59327@ms8.netsolmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-5--342441149; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: Cc: "'Atom WG'" From: Graham Subject: Re: Priorities in Atom? Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 15:13:29 +0000 To: bob@wyman.us X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-5--342441149 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Those all seem different and not in the same "class". The key difference is that an entry can have an unlimited number of different types of those things, whereas it can only have one priority. Currently any entry has an inherent relative priority of [average], whereas their blogrank or geourl is unknown. 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Wed, 8 Dec 2004 11:25:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB8GFQLU061582; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 08:15:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iB8GFQol061581; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 08:15:26 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.192]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB8GFPOg061538 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 08:15:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so144488rnz for ; Wed, 08 Dec 2004 08:15:23 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=Fsiapc2xeLmGVg8ySrf6KeKLgUDpwkaATeDVjnJVbVfl87eY6z4R1TI39SgnzAke2bSvBjE/yK/2EhhYbdmjG/O7Rt5ih8cEX8gNhgPyLZcow8g6tV1hDta23O65Feh++dmdIldMMTLmZIUqfB7CBIKJ6v5QZr04LVFRuCk5fGs= Received: by 10.38.8.44 with SMTP id 44mr447244rnh; Wed, 08 Dec 2004 08:15:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.52 with HTTP; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 08:15:22 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04120808153eb9ccda@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 17:15:22 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Graham Subject: Re: Priorities in Atom? Cc: bob@wyman.us, Atom WG In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200412080935.CBV59327@ms8.netsolmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 15:13:29 +0000, Graham wrote: > Those all seem different and not in the same "class". The key > difference is that an entry can have an unlimited number of different > types of those things, whereas it can only have one priority. Currently > any entry has an inherent relative priority of [average], whereas their > blogrank or geourl is unknown. It may well be a good idea to treat priority differently than other properties, but it's not yet clear what is meant by the term. There's really quite a lot being assumed - how does priority relate to urgency and importance? Presumably this will be a publisher-set value, but on some kind of linear scale? discrete or continuous? global or site-local? Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Dec 8 12:35:21 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA16931 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 12:35:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB8HNPXR023183; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 09:23:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iB8HNP19023182; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 09:23:25 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB8HNO8a023164 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 09:23:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iB8HLr7K006322; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 17:21:59 GMT In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd04120808153eb9ccda@mail.gmail.com> References: <200412080935.CBV59327@ms8.netsolmail.com> <1f2ed5cd04120808153eb9ccda@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-6--334738310; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: Cc: Atom WG From: Graham Subject: Re: Priorities in Atom? Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 17:21:52 +0000 To: Danny Ayers X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-6--334738310 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8 Dec 2004, at 4:15 pm, Danny Ayers wrote: > It may well be a good idea to treat priority differently than other > properties, but it's not yet clear what is meant by the term. There's > really quite a lot being assumed - how does priority relate to urgency > and importance? Importance might be a petter word for it, or prominence maybe. It wouldn't be used for QoS-type stuff that prioritizing implies. They'd purely be a hint for the UA, which currently has no choice but to display all entries the same way. > Presumably this will be a publisher-set value, but on > some kind of linear scale? discrete or continuous? I'd imagine a scale of 1 to 10 (though no upper limit is really necessary), with 1 being the most important. > global or site-local? Site-local, otherwise it's open to abuse, and too difficult to define. The numbers would be purely relative to other entries from the same feed, as a standardized scale would be impossible to come up with. Composite feeds may have to strip them, or we could come up with a simple rule based on feed ids and headinentry. Time to write a Pace. Graham --Apple-Mail-6--334738310 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMjA4MTcyMTUzWjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQU6oaZdg04I4Oq3eQsVRGlqp5R Mv8weAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEATnfvwbKtrQYlASMMTF1/ge8b a2YG2F8qa2sr/kmMR0CBcvAI3uQyAXqem27Hnqmn8oWwXWilZtQ6pkdXIMYTLEWYS8TDZegjD1jX 0RymMDoyE6niWZNx7IOL7SeZtpFtGwVlqVKCllhkh7evedVEIvBMYJbYuq3IcwyBLH5+/gMuKBf2 wGjO9bw2CXYXpcvmKVqkEzjrjlocyc9ZmHo2wq66zMuHkYCsWlwXnWgGZfPPMRGSVXc03eUpv4eT Z54496XfbItwmzqjw5a99TguIaNBBKbfeurhx8SwCAh4ixlTZbh8R7ETrcKgjBdIA4DTU3MAvyUv xUduAgdl+Gaq9gAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-6--334738310-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Dec 8 13:35:52 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA22312 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 13:35:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB8IPBmC067281; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 10:25:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iB8IPBjR067280; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 10:25:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [10.20.30.249] (adsl-66-125-125-65.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [66.125.125.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB8IP9rT067254; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 10:25:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <32CECCCA-48CE-11D9-823E-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> References: <32CECCCA-48CE-11D9-823E-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 10:25:09 -0800 To: Graham , Atom WG From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: Priorities in Atom? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This seems like a very useful extension, but not part of the core. I'd say: write it up! I would certainly like to see priorities allowed in some of the feeds I read. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Dec 8 14:13:30 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA25338 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 14:13:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB8J63fr093400; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 11:06:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iB8J63xw093399; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 11:06:03 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB8J63cF093185 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 11:06:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-255-96.client.comcast.net[67.169.255.96]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <2004120819055801600a5dvke>; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 19:05:58 +0000 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 12:05:57 -0700 Subject: Re: Priorities in Atom? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <3117284E-494C-11D9-93A9-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday, December 8, 2004, at 10:21 AM, Graham wrote: > Composite feeds may have to strip them, or we could come up with a > simple rule based on feed ids and headinentry. Information like this that is valid only within the context of the feed brings up issues that we need to be careful to resolve correctly. A few options and related issues: 1) Composite feeds strip this element out: a) loses information b) breaks signing of the entries (Could the aggregator sign the modified entry in a way that said "when I got it, I verified it's signature"--then, if you trust the aggregator, you accept that it was originally properly signed? ...what if an aggregator gets it from another aggregator which you DON'T trust? The entry would need to carry info about the whole chain of aggregators who'd signed it to enable consumers to make their own trust decisions.) c) if this element gets defined in an extension, we'll need a must-understand mechanism to ensure that aggregators that don't know to strip it out don't pass it through 2) Composite feeds leave this in as-is, and it applies within the context of the feed whose head appears in the entry: a) we'd either need a way to add another element specifying the priority/importance/whatever of the entry within the composite feed, or composite feed publishers would not be able to add that editorial information 3) Composite feeds add something to this element to indicate that it applies to the feed whose head appears in the entry, and may add another element to specify the priority/importance/whatever of the entry within the composite feed: a) same as 1b above b) 1c =~ s/strip it out/alter it/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Dec 8 14:27:05 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA26085 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 14:27:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB8JDbG8097579; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 11:13:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iB8JDbsr097578; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 11:13:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB8JDajF097553; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 11:13:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cc7Fm-00030D-Ui; Wed, 08 Dec 2004 19:13:35 +0000 Message-ID: <41B7525C.40407@franklinmint.fm> Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 14:13:32 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Hoffman / IMC CC: Atom WG Subject: Re: Priorities in Atom? References: <32CECCCA-48CE-11D9-823E-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: > > This seems like a very useful extension, but not part of the core. +1 Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 9 17:17:48 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA19379 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 17:17:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB9LxjmE003156; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 13:59:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iB9LxjUA003151; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 13:59:45 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rongo.sixapart.com (dsl081-057-015.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.57.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB9LxeJ2002961 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 13:59:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ezra@sixapart.com) Received: from [192.168.100.239] (Aphrodite.sm.sixapart.com [192.168.100.239]) by rongo.sixapart.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34C8F481BF for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 13:59:40 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: <41B6447F.7060806@franklinmint.fm> References: <412B23C4.9010602@intertwingly.net> <4130E11B.3000600@intertwingly.net> <41546A46.60507@intertwingly.net> <4166C99A.4040603@intertwingly.net> <41812CA8.6090501@intertwingly.net> <4198C7F6.7040606@intertwingly.net> <41AF672A.60106@intertwingly.net> <540e3732041202141158826a7b@mail.gmail.com> <41B6447F.7060806@franklinmint.fm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ezra Cooper Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 14:01:02 -0800 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +1 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 9 17:38:40 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA23411 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 17:38:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB9MRhDX031178; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 14:27:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iB9MRhhq031175; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 14:27:43 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB9MRgC4030902 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 14:27:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iB9MQXgd004119 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 22:26:38 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: References: <412B23C4.9010602@intertwingly.net> <4130E11B.3000600@intertwingly.net> <41546A46.60507@intertwingly.net> <4166C99A.4040603@intertwingly.net> <41812CA8.6090501@intertwingly.net> <4198C7F6.7040606@intertwingly.net> <41AF672A.60106@intertwingly.net> <540e3732041202141158826a7b@mail.gmail.com> <41B6447F.7060806@franklinmint.fm> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-8--230056830; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <6248FFFA-4A31-11D9-823E-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> From: Graham Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 22:26:34 +0000 To: Atom WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-8--230056830 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -1 > Both the "scheme" and "label" are optional, but the "term" attribute > is mandatory. What good is a term without a scheme? And without a label either, all you know is that something is from category #4. How is this useful? Graham --Apple-Mail-8--230056830 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMjA5MjIyNjM0WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUXXPcQb7DgNL+5lYboKe+XPtn DjMweAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEAwOViSrq0DtJSZFgp5TAE6Gtr bb7Pdo6yjRGZZwKdtCFOqxEr3DqnmYUp7HcHaldPCg910D66cYOtXLhHteo+EQkjRqxIc2/ombDP RNVbrDBsnUP1XF2Pieu2KysDWjjSRchgyu6/dUoPC7vpmlfBc29EK6NHUxOxxFYECdyzgQMZSi17 /THJIgm4l/nNei6L18xEhqrCtyoi8AmV/IrXsBDVEVXKBvELAoRFY8rPlQM/XyYo5EmQOe3kpQMu 5NTOJ16eviRMTuk1Wan+m4/3u1E5Pn7FXTkIrm1jym81BLTfXi0Ib+TOJMP2KiEa/qBOKHCKIM3f c1RQgYTuj0GmWwAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-8--230056830-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 9 18:32:09 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA27950 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 18:32:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB9NLXWD093100; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 15:21:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iB9NLX2N093099; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 15:21:33 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB9NLSOv092930 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 15:21:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from quark (46.80-202-165.nextgentel.com [80.202.165.46]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 541F237E3; Fri, 10 Dec 2004 00:21:28 +0100 (MET) To: "Tim Bray" Cc: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: Interesting overlap with XCAP draft References: Message-ID: Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 00:25:21 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera M2/7.60 (Win32, build 7321) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 14:43:49 -0800, Tim Bray wrote: > Check it out: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-simple-xcap-05.txt Yes, it's interesting, as I expressed on the list almost a month ago: As I wrote back then: When reading this I can't stop thinking about its relevance to the Atom protocol in so many ways. Perhaps we should try to implement XCAP as a part of the Atom protocol rather than inventing some of the same things over again? I think XCAP's relevance to the Atom protocol is mainly regarding configuration of Atom servers; autodiscovery documents, searches within Atom documents and maybe even updates of existing Atom documents. XCAP lacks some of Atom's needs in this respect, so maybe we should provide some input so that XCAP can serve the Atom protocol's needs. -- Asbjørn Ulsberg -=|=- http://virtuelvis.com/quark/ «He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away» From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 9 18:32:09 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA27958 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 18:32:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB9NNXpk095655; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 15:23:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iB9NNXJl095654; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 15:23:33 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.197]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB9NNW8A095464 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 15:23:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rogben@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so655441wra for ; Thu, 09 Dec 2004 15:23:31 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=L/np8GAxyR859dbd8xMRTDzqMqAJV5GHBwq5NUpJJCGPXet751ZXNJcr5JHN3pNUAhNqT6IH+HqmJhKBMz7hUmy+sOhedJ+TvnuLysCK1saOnEuvXL8DQuJluAq0wwwqyUHfT0HkHj+yWoOXuZ2lPDVNSmoARz6ChZ//LEfcbvU= Received: by 10.54.40.26 with SMTP id n26mr542378wrn; Thu, 09 Dec 2004 15:23:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.18.58 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 15:23:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <540e373204120915235543f813@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 17:23:31 -0600 From: "Roger B." Reply-To: "Roger B." To: Graham Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: <6248FFFA-4A31-11D9-823E-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <412B23C4.9010602@intertwingly.net> <41546A46.60507@intertwingly.net> <4166C99A.4040603@intertwingly.net> <41812CA8.6090501@intertwingly.net> <4198C7F6.7040606@intertwingly.net> <41AF672A.60106@intertwingly.net> <540e3732041202141158826a7b@mail.gmail.com> <41B6447F.7060806@franklinmint.fm> <6248FFFA-4A31-11D9-823E-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What good is a term without a scheme? And without a label either, all > you know is that something is from category #4. How is this useful? Graham: See del.icio.us. Someone's "apple" tag may relate to their career in fruit, while my "apple" tag may relate to computers... but in most cases, there's enough overlap for del.icio.us to do useful things. Same thing here. My "Flash" animation category may not really relate to the "Flash" category on an exhibitionist porn site, but I'm betting I'll get more good matches than bad over time. Particularly when dealing with the finite universe of my desktop aggregator. Naturally, folks with numeric IDs or whatever won't be able to cash in on random connections, but those are the folks who will be most likely to add @scheme and @label to their elements. -- Roger Benningfield From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 9 18:42:25 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA28789 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 18:42:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB9NYetW011647; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 15:34:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iB9NYe2F011646; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 15:34:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB9NYdUV011542 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 15:34:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iB9NYOIs020127; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 23:34:31 GMT In-Reply-To: <540e373204120915235543f813@mail.gmail.com> References: <412B23C4.9010602@intertwingly.net> <41546A46.60507@intertwingly.net> <4166C99A.4040603@intertwingly.net> <41812CA8.6090501@intertwingly.net> <4198C7F6.7040606@intertwingly.net> <41AF672A.60106@intertwingly.net> <540e3732041202141158826a7b@mail.gmail.com> <41B6447F.7060806@franklinmint.fm> <6248FFFA-4A31-11D9-823E-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <540e373204120915235543f813@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-9--225985034; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: Cc: Atom WG From: Graham Subject: Re: PaceCategoryRevised Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 23:34:25 +0000 To: "Roger B." X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-9--225985034 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9 Dec 2004, at 11:23 pm, Roger B. wrote: > Naturally, folks with numeric IDs or whatever won't be able to cash in > on random connections, but those are the folks who will be most likely > to add @scheme and @label to their elements. You've just made a very compelling argument for why label is the most useful one and if any are going to be required, it should. (I actually think they should all be optional, and possibly "term" should default to the value of label when absent) Graham --Apple-Mail-9--225985034 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGDDCCAsUw ggIuoAMCAQICAwuqUzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwMjA3MjIzNDA1WhcNMDUwMjA2MjIzNDA1WjA+MR8wHQYDVQQD ExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxkdGNkQG1hYy5jb20wggEi MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDgdw59wBv8wz4jyS4cFojV3xKfHDvWRVMdfeZ2 epV1MR83KbIpif5RH+iY9xpss9v1IGjqlEt4IhbT5RnC1FxHd+RvQ60oKRXj9F2mkU7m9bu+CXsi ejSGa6MgJzo1pvK2khEgHHpDQqhf9ILfYn4XFBxeS1/6E7aISVrTgOX2lt7TwHrfg7WwDm58yQOV fDoGwECE74WFNEfRMxavURZ5AGnNWeTBVFPDe/BbXSvD+hEoiHvP10ZRL0z4B4JMjdEqoIHFT/Er utvI6dSmLfSaERmsDT29UkbyXGEsVvsaKhjJxVT7yiAhQtwclUWTA6blm6f3ZY7TZpRt3MAr+0Qp AgMBAAGjKTAnMBcGA1UdEQQQMA6BDGR0Y2RAbWFjLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBABE9NhMrR8+MJrXd+rwuR+v2EIwBgeMWqoPUVThtNoV3W0D6o1UIDFGpSz9AgqFO LDU4hWUh4yrtsR4F2gULnvkdzsIv4ttEqbcJVC1ckCemjTtE9uS3d2eJzj8XeYJEaOGHNPkDPvCG E++wSGS6I0Zyuzcuobneq1b4gTxKLYeeMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB 0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3du MRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2 aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJ KoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5n IChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENB MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31 W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3 PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIG A1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29t L1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAc MRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswN o2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSe JVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/ XV9lTzGCAucwggLjAgEBMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAgMLqlMwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAVMwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMDQxMjA5MjMzNDI2WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUCOUDkgElkkNXvlT3Rnk3RMPb ueIweAYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMWswaTBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1 bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3Vp bmcgQ0ECAwuqUzB6BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFroGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRo YXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVl bWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMLqlMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEAv8md+5k9tj7aagDVeULHcO3L b/kdqhJFtg9rCXYTFvdrxxTp0hD65irfqZSIu2+xRac/0yZmHJuRRnSpcdU+enlfmm4YVzOLDYp3 UUg4AASzvbbZW1UFOdNHjbGD2MRTCGmYSRz+sUHbnyGbmkSjFeVu0zTxIAJL5glMsyy8goVAHUNH yXjTIL9C7UBk0H91zS7uh/suStl5ba21QNri+HEynioa/UcJZkSGCemqmUfLRg8BfGYkMdshxIHV T1n5qfwWe+mY2wkLjQkCG6UMA2L0+1/Bf/HBFQzprWVMgbQBWmSBjUJ9Fka63soekVwJ1j8WtV0X +2O+nfJ7ApzFjgAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-9--225985034-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 9 18:56:19 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA29695 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 18:56:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB9NllKT029992; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 15:47:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iB9Nll3n029991; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 15:47:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB9NljYQ029317 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 15:47:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (203.30.247.2) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:47:09 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:46:56 +1100 Subject: updates, and segregating annotations From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With talk of intermediaries inserting various extra bits of [whatever] into feeds before passing them on, I've been wondering just how this interplays with updates being re-issued from the original source. If say I publish an atom entry at 1pm, which gets picked up by Foo at 2pm and lards in it's FooRank details, does the [augmented] entry that Foo publishes have a modified/updated date-time of 1pm or 2pm? What if new information comes to hand to Foo (eg. more related links), and the entry is retrieved from Foo at 3pm? How will Foo indicate that the 3pm [augmented] entry from Foo is an updated version of it's [augmented] entry of 2pm? What if in the meantime the original source publishes an update at 2:30pm, which Foo doesn't necessarily get to see just yet, but somehow the entry still gets into my aggregator and is seen to be the same entry as per the entry/id. Which version should my aggregator display: the [3pm augmented] version #1, or the 2:30pm version #2? If the elements from the original source entry are just mixed in with the elements from any subsequent intermediaries then it would be a real mess trying to figure out who added what (and lets just flag signing for future consideration). Would segregating the annotations be a workable idea? I'm thinking of something like: ... ... ... [original source material gets to ride at the top level] ... ... ... ... e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Dec 13 02:28:34 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA05171 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 02:28:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBD74JGq028883; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 23:04:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBD74JnN028881; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 23:04:19 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBD74IMJ028869 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 23:04:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from duerst@w3.org) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 961DF4FBA9 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 01:58:06 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20041213154104.05fe16c8@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 15:48:14 +0900 To: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: IRIs, URIs, and RFC 2396bis (was: Protocol Action: 'Internationalized Resource Identifiers (IRIs)' to Proposed Standard) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There was earlier some discussion about whether to allow IRIs (instead and on top of URIs) in Atom. The decision was put off because some people had doubts whether IRIs would move ahead on the standards track or not, and if they'd move on, how fast. As you may already have seen, IRIs have been approved as an IETF Proposed Standard last week (see also below). I therefore propose that we use IRIs in Atom. Unless there is strong objection already at this point, I'll go ahead and work out the pace that I already started (http://intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceIRI). Regards, Martin. >From: The IESG >To: IETF-Announce >Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 09:55:16 -0500 >Cc: Internet Architecture Board ,RFC Editor >Subject: Protocol Action: 'Internationalized Resource Identifiers (IRIs)' to Proposed Standard >The IESG has approved the following document: > >- 'Internationalized Resource Identifiers (IRIs) ' > as a Proposed Standard > >This document has been reviewed in the IETF but is not the product of an >IETF Working Group. > >The IESG contact person is Ted Hardie. > >Technical Summary > >This document describes Internationalized Resource Identifiers and their >relationship to URIs. While the character limitations of URIs are not >usually an issue for protocol processing, they may restrict the usefulness of >the identifiers presented to end users or systems expecting a different range of >characters. Rather than extend URIs, this document introduces a new identifier >type and a describes a relationship to URIs. Within an IETF context, IRIs >will likely be used as presentation elements. There are cases, such as XML >namespaces, in which an IRI may be used as a token, because >character-by-character equivalence is the only property used for protocol >processing. In no case should an implementor assume that an IRI may be >substituted for a URI in an existing protocol grammar; either the generative >grammar associated with the protocol must be updated to specify IRIs or the >implementation must transform an IRI into a URI before use. > >Working Group Summary > >This work was initiated in the W3C, and it has been broadly accepted in that >context. It has also been discussed on the URI mailing list and a public, open >list (public-iri@w3.org) dedicated to the topic. Considerable care has been >taken to keep this specification well-synchronized with the URI specification. >There were issues raised during IETF Last Call, and a new document version >resolving those issues was submitted. > > >_______________________________________________ >IETF-Announce mailing list >IETF-Announce@ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Dec 13 03:44:11 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA11041 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 03:44:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBD8Tc1i040365; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 00:29:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBD8TcZw040364; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 00:29:38 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBD8TcoW040352 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 00:29:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from duerst@w3.org) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 078BA4F4A3; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 03:02:26 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20041213155200.0605e338@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 15:53:51 +0900 To: Sam Ruby From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: Wiki setup issues: IRI Cc: Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: <40EED1F9.9000601@intertwingly.net> References: <4.2.0.58.J.20040709091221.060d8590@localhost> <40EED1F9.9000601@intertwingly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Sam, At the end of this email, you say that you would pick some quiet time to change the wiki to work with UTF-8/IRIs. Did you have time to do this? If not, would you mind doing this soon? It would be really great if our wiki conformed to what we agree is best practice. If you need help, please tell me. Regards, Martin. At 02:12 04/07/10, Sam Ruby wrote: >Martin Duerst wrote: >> When working on http://intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceIRI >> (not at all complete yet), I put my name (the real one, with umlaut, >> not the one I have to use in my outdated Japanese mailer) in square >> brackets at the start of the Abstract like I had seen it on other Paces >> such as http://intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceUriOrItsSuccessor. >> When I then clicked on it, I got to >> http://intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/MartinD_fcrst, which shows >> that with a few, probably very simple, changes to the wiki >> setup/code, this could be made compatible with IRIs. >> Two changes are necessary: >> 1) Change the wiki to use UTF-8 for its page encoding rather than >> iso-8859-1. For a new wiki, this should just be a setup issue >> (otherwise, choose another wiki software, or maybe another ISP). >> For the current wiki, pages with non-ASCII characters have to be >> converted to UTF-8 at the same time the setup is changed. >> Doing that is easy if you have access to the actual files. >> In line with http://intertwingly.net/stories/2004/04/14/i18n.html, >> I would suggest that we do that anyway, and I'm ready to help. >> This would then change the above URI from >> http://intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/MartinD_fcrst to >> http://intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/MartinD_c3_bcrst. > >In moin_config.py, there is the following: > > charset = 'iso-8859-1' > >While this looks hopeful, it seems to me that such a change would not only affect the character set used within the pages, but would also change the NAME of the page. Simply put, MartinD_fcrst and MartinD_c3_bcrst are separate pages, and changing the encoding used in the page would change which one of these pages were the target of the link. > >Examples of pages it would affect: > >http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/Fran_e7oisGranger?action=fullsearch&value=Fran%E7oisGranger&literal=1&case=1&context=40 > >Thinking about it a bit, my preference is to NOT directly fix the source files. It seems to me that the number of issues should be small - I am quite willing to write programs to generate reports of potentially problematic pages, but unless the changes required are massive AND readily and safely automatable, then I would prefer that the change be made by hand. > >> 2) Change the escape character from '_' to '%'. This would change >> the above URI from >> http://intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/MartinD_c3_bcrst to >> http://intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/MartinD%c3%bcrst. >> While at it, please also change escaping from lowercase to >> upper case, in accordance with 2396bis. This would give >> http://intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/MartinD%C3%BCrst. > >This also changes the name of the page. In particular, some of the help pages delivered with Moin have URI escaped slash characters in their name (example: http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/HelpOnInstalling). > >However, it looks like the code change itself should be simple as the mapping is done in exactly one place. > >> The two changes are largely independent, and can be done in any order. >> If everything goes well, the file names are then actually readable, >> on an Unix/Linux system assuming you have selected an UTF-8 locale (most >> new Linux systems are shipped that way, as far as I understand). > >It looks to me that the way to proceed is to pick some relatively quiet time (perhaps this weekend), make both changes at once, and then fix what breaks. > >> As I said, I'd be very glad to help get this fixed. >> I don't really care too much about my own name, I could >> use 'Duerst' as a fallback, but it'd really be better >> to fix this on this occasion. >> Regards, Martin. > >- Sam Ruby > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Dec 13 03:47:47 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA11213 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 03:47:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBD8UbtU040772; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 00:30:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBD8UbD1040771; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 00:30:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBD8UbbO040761 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 00:30:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from duerst@w3.org) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47AAF4F489 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 03:02:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20041213154104.05fe16c8@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 15:48:14 +0900 To: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: IRIs, URIs, and RFC 2396bis (was: Protocol Action: 'Internationalized Resource Identifiers (IRIs)' to Proposed Standard) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There was earlier some discussion about whether to allow IRIs (instead and on top of URIs) in Atom. The decision was put off because some people had doubts whether IRIs would move ahead on the standards track or not, and if they'd move on, how fast. As you may already have seen, IRIs have been approved as an IETF Proposed Standard last week (see also below). I therefore propose that we use IRIs in Atom. Unless there is strong objection already at this point, I'll go ahead and work out the pace that I already started (http://intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceIRI). Regards, Martin. >From: The IESG >To: IETF-Announce >Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 09:55:16 -0500 >Cc: Internet Architecture Board ,RFC Editor >Subject: Protocol Action: 'Internationalized Resource Identifiers (IRIs)' to Proposed Standard >The IESG has approved the following document: > >- 'Internationalized Resource Identifiers (IRIs) ' > as a Proposed Standard > >This document has been reviewed in the IETF but is not the product of an >IETF Working Group. > >The IESG contact person is Ted Hardie. > >Technical Summary > >This document describes Internationalized Resource Identifiers and their >relationship to URIs. While the character limitations of URIs are not >usually an issue for protocol processing, they may restrict the usefulness of >the identifiers presented to end users or systems expecting a different range of >characters. Rather than extend URIs, this document introduces a new identifier >type and a describes a relationship to URIs. Within an IETF context, IRIs >will likely be used as presentation elements. There are cases, such as XML >namespaces, in which an IRI may be used as a token, because >character-by-character equivalence is the only property used for protocol >processing. In no case should an implementor assume that an IRI may be >substituted for a URI in an existing protocol grammar; either the generative >grammar associated with the protocol must be updated to specify IRIs or the >implementation must transform an IRI into a URI before use. > >Working Group Summary > >This work was initiated in the W3C, and it has been broadly accepted in that >context. It has also been discussed on the URI mailing list and a public, open >list (public-iri@w3.org) dedicated to the topic. Considerable care has been >taken to keep this specification well-synchronized with the URI specification. >There were issues raised during IETF Last Call, and a new document version >resolving those issues was submitted. > > >_______________________________________________ >IETF-Announce mailing list >IETF-Announce@ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Dec 15 15:41:59 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA08431 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:41:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBFKMZo3077959; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:22:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBFKMZKb077958; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:22:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.195]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBFKMXsq077882 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:22:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so571806rnz for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:22:30 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=VhfPDT0E6RfRRThIMh7b/VFuaL5bcUes/d1g5wGkHBj8Wj6PN7F4KV8m37zd5R/MRhV3k44SOVVXZvRzXWC1TDGG0xj1MaN8PoHQzSAqtlVLHGWLyjpCgBfaCCb0BKecx+Zu7IXq4kbF4b8m+FqkJJ3C2RycaEsmwW02b7lTmbM= Received: by 10.38.8.44 with SMTP id 44mr443845rnh; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:22:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.52 with HTTP; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:22:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd041215122274e5c6@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 21:22:30 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" In-Reply-To: <125F7834E11A5741A7D79412EE3504F90F26CD84@UK1APPS2.nature.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <125F7834E11A5741A7D79412EE3504F90F26CD84@UK1APPS2.nature.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit fyi, A paper published today in D-Lib Magazine. Atom is mentioned, also the article describes requirements that led them to RSS 1.0 that probably should be taken into account with Atom. (I think some/all of the authors are on this list - hi guys!) The Role of RSS in Science Publishing: Syndication and Annotation on the Web by Tony Hammond, Timo Hannay and Ben Lund, Nature Publishing Group http://dx.doi.org/10.1045/december2004-hammond -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Dec 15 15:58:24 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA10105 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:58:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBFKnxgY098437; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:49:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBFKnxlh098434; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:49:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBFKnwJX098409 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:49:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from w122.z065105092.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net ([65.105.92.122] helo=[192.168.254.94]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Ceg5s-0004qc-Dt; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:49:56 +0000 Message-ID: <41C0A372.3010708@franklinmint.fm> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:49:54 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Danny Ayers CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" References: <125F7834E11A5741A7D79412EE3504F90F26CD84@UK1APPS2.nature.com> <1f2ed5cd041215122274e5c6@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd041215122274e5c6@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Danny Ayers wrote: > fyi, A paper published today in D-Lib Magazine. Atom is mentioned, > also the article describes requirements that led them to RSS 1.0 that > probably should be taken into account with Atom. (I think some/all of > the authors are on this list - hi guys!) I wasn't aware that RSS2 and Atom aren't extensible! +-----------( Figure 2 )-------------------------+ | | | (Simple: Plain XML) | | | | +---(0.91)--(0.92)--(2.0)--(Atom) | | | | | | | | --(0.9)---+---(1.0) | | | | (Extensible: RDF/XML) | | | +------------------------------------------------+ Sigh... Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Dec 15 17:53:06 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA26382 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:53:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBFMgPcm088372; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 14:42:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBFMgP3x088371; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 14:42:25 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr4.netsolmail.com (omr4.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBFMgOhv088347 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 14:42:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr4.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iBFMgQqn020852 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:42:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id CDD08415 (AUTH bob@wyman.us); Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:42:25 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200412152242.CDD08415@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Atom WG'" Subject: Need to work on extensibility of Atom... Nature folk speak in D-Lib Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:42:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-Index: AcTi92ysD6kbUWJFSceSi/lw1aAuNA== Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit D-Lib magazine in their December 2004 issue carry an interesting story about Nature's use and plans for using RSS. The article is entitled: "The Role of RSS in Science Publishing". In the article[1] the folk from Nature say: "As a science publisher, however, we are minded to continue to produce RSS 1.0 for the immediate future, since it meets all our current needs, while monitoring the Atom development to see what end utility it might afford. Our current view is that Atom does not provide the necessary level of metadata extensibility and interoperability that we are able to achieve with RSS 1.0." ... "One of our main interests in RSS is the ability to include additional metadata." "Besides tables of content with associated bibliographic metadata, we also syndicate feeds of the current jobs advertisements that are held in our scientific jobs database." "But RSS is not just for syndicating textual information; it is also being used to transmit complete scientific data sets." " The latest version of Urchin [Nature Publishing Group's RSS Aggregator] released to SourceForge supports filtering by channel aggregates, keywords, specific data fields and Boolean queries. It further supports full RDF queries using RCQL (the RDF::Core::Query language)." So, we have an RSS Aggregator with RDF Query built in! Clearly, the folk at Nature see RSS/Atom as much more than formats for carrying simple text-oriented blog entries. They are talking here of structured job postings, scientific data sets, etc. This is, I think, the *real* future of Atom -- as a generic format for feeds of data that will become more and more structured over time. Today, content is almost always "text". In the future, I think we'll see the "xml" content type become dominant. Will Nature be using RSS V1.0 or Atom in the future? If we don't finish Atom and get the extensibility questions resolved, it is certain that they will stick to RSS V1.0. bob wyman [1] http://www.dlib.org/dlib/december04/hammond/12hammond.html From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Dec 15 18:11:55 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA28408 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:11:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBFN6L9U004688; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:06:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBFN6LBF004687; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:06:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.201]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBFN6Kj3004638 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:06:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so578256rnz for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:06:20 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=e8C06teFtHbq3HVQvcv+0+oEGZA3hJZjIAcdn+Rght/0nR1dOaOgqlarrSOkB1vn2xmQJve99hD2Xn1z0Rhk7PMIaGirGwHK52T825dmXYHzuKQhN3zJog5q9ukINYTaAQ5byQhITmtxpm50raBD0TzvT4RzVGKfcWudo7gsb4I= Received: by 10.38.8.44 with SMTP id 44mr494225rnh; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:06:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.52 with HTTP; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:06:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04121515067e3d5ad5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 00:06:20 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: mint@franklinmint.fm Subject: Re: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <41C0A372.3010708@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <125F7834E11A5741A7D79412EE3504F90F26CD84@UK1APPS2.nature.com> <1f2ed5cd041215122274e5c6@mail.gmail.com> <41C0A372.3010708@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:49:54 -0500, Robert Sayre wrote: > I wasn't aware that RSS2 and Atom aren't extensible! I wouldn't take it for granted. Myself, I've flip-flopped on these questions a few times. I'm pretty sure "using XML syntax" isn't a guarantee in itself. Depends (as usual) somewhat on definitions. For 'extensible' FOLDOC has: "Said of a system (e.g., program, file format, programming language, protocol, etc.) designed to easily allow the addition of new features at a later date, e.g. through the use of hooks, an API or plug-ins." Does RSS 2.0 allow addition of new features? Well yes, if you wheel in the XML namespaces layer and simultaneous knock out the "Simple" of syntax that caused the old fork. Was it designed for this? I reckon that's pushing it a little. In practice it easily allows the addition of new features in the sense that a human language easily allows new words - you can have them, as long as you can get everyone to agree their meaning. Pluggable, but every new plug needs a corresponding new socket. Does RSS 1.0 allow this? Yes, without a doubt, there is a complete supporting framework/language in which it is straightforward to define extensions on the same level as RSS (RDF/RDFS) or by building layers on top (OWL, rules etc). The language is pluggable, there are hooks. In human language terms, you can define new words based largely on existing definitions, though they will usually also have additional domain-specific meaning. Does Atom allow this? That remains to be seen. Personally I'm hopeful that we've got past the assumption that namespaces alone will save us, and that we (will) have usable hooks which will make the format & protocol genuinely extensible, rather than just inheriting an 'X' in the title. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Dec 15 18:43:19 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA01289 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:43:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBFNWgGY020777; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:32:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBFNWgm2020776; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:32:42 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBFNWe3A020642 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:32:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (203.30.247.2) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:32:04 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:32:13 +1100 Subject: Re: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd04121515067e3d5ad5@mail.gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 16/12/04 10:06 AM, "Danny Ayers" wrote: > In practice it easily allows the addition > of new features in the sense that a human language easily allows new > words - you can have them, as long as you can get everyone to agree > their meaning. Pluggable, but every new plug needs a corresponding new > socket. The limit isn't universally true - there are a few languages that support algorithmic creation of new words. German, for one IIRC. Turkish too. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Dec 15 18:56:22 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA02167 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:56:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBFNn0ce033572; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:49:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBFNn0t0033571; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:49:00 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBFNn0pe033565 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:49:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.9]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CeitB-0006ME-UP; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 23:49:02 +0000 Message-ID: <41C0CD69.4050004@franklinmint.fm> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:48:57 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Danny Ayers CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" References: <125F7834E11A5741A7D79412EE3504F90F26CD84@UK1APPS2.nature.com> <1f2ed5cd041215122274e5c6@mail.gmail.com> <41C0A372.3010708@franklinmint.fm> <1f2ed5cd04121515067e3d5ad5@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd04121515067e3d5ad5@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Danny Ayers wrote: > > "Said of a system (e.g., program, file format, programming language, > protocol, etc.) designed to easily allow the addition of new features > at a later date, e.g. through the use of hooks, an API or plug-ins." So you can't do that with RSS2 or Atom? > Does RSS 1.0 allow this? Yes, without a doubt, there is a complete > supporting framework/language in which it is straightforward to define > extensions on the same level as RSS (RDF/RDFS) or by building layers > on top (OWL, rules etc). Yes, but you can't use your standard RDF serializer to write the RSS1. > The language is pluggable, there are hooks. > In human language terms, you can define new words based largely on > existing definitions, though they will usually also have additional > domain-specific meaning. > It is possible to understand RDF yet not want to use it. > Does Atom allow this? That remains to be seen. Personally I'm hopeful > that we've got past the assumption that namespaces alone will save us, > and that we (will) have usable hooks which will make the format & > protocol genuinely extensible, rather than just inheriting an 'X' in > the title. OK, fair enough. How about Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok vemmi://example.org/2003/32397 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z ... This is just like RSS1, except there's a URI identifying the entry, and the syntax defaults to XML literals. Also, you can use your standard RDF serializer to write your statements. Of course, you'll have to use an actual RDF parser to get them back out. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Dec 15 19:01:25 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA02880 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 19:01:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBFNrwHm038527; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:53:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBFNrwCU038526; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:53:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.201]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBFNrsss038288 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:53:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so579742rnz for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:53:54 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=fVr6uJc0M3aFbUZ3wcQZDT3E+WoUJJgqr4ZbwFejdufmXxYd/4gZc1B48ijbJNaHPE1251PiglZFpSleoCYfvCppgCNYEfFzzCPJaOXSb0Y96s3A7YS+S0Rq/loXfBLM9RMObGnc4BnrB6pUhHw906dTmFSYlG/Sv+p2ZAKmU4M= Received: by 10.38.179.75 with SMTP id b75mr189577rnf; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:53:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.52 with HTTP; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:53:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0412151553442c6e2f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 00:53:54 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Eric Scheid Subject: Re: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" Cc: Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <1f2ed5cd04121515067e3d5ad5@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:32:13 +1100, Eric Scheid wrote: > > On 16/12/04 10:06 AM, "Danny Ayers" wrote: > > > In practice it easily allows the addition > > of new features in the sense that a human language easily allows new > > words - you can have them, as long as you can get everyone to agree > > their meaning. Pluggable, but every new plug needs a corresponding new > > socket. > > The limit isn't universally true - there are a few languages that support > algorithmic creation of new words. German, for one IIRC. Turkish too. Sure, my apologies. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Dec 15 19:38:44 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA05076 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 19:38:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBG0Ti3V066430; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:29:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBG0TiP1066429; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:29:44 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail00.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail00.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iBG0TfNn066399 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:29:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 29477 messnum 4153117 invoked from network[83.70.36.215/83-70-36-215.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 16 Dec 2004 00:29:41 -0000 Received: from 83-70-36-215.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?192.168.123.143?) (83.70.36.215) by mail00.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 29477) with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 00:29:41 -0000 Message-ID: <41C0D70F.9010505@dehora.net> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 00:30:07 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Danny Ayers CC: mint@franklinmint.fm, atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" References: <125F7834E11A5741A7D79412EE3504F90F26CD84@UK1APPS2.nature.com> <1f2ed5cd041215122274e5c6@mail.gmail.com> <41C0A372.3010708@franklinmint.fm> <1f2ed5cd04121515067e3d5ad5@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd04121515067e3d5ad5@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Danny Ayers wrote: > On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:49:54 -0500, Robert Sayre wrote: > > >>I wasn't aware that RSS2 and Atom aren't extensible! > > > Does RSS 2.0 allow addition of new features? Well yes, if you wheel in > the XML namespaces layer and simultaneous knock out the "Simple" of > syntax that caused the old fork. Was it designed for this? I reckon > that's pushing it a little. It certainly does depend on your definition of extensible. Saying RSS2.0 is extensible because I can drop in namespaced blocks is like saying my copy of the K&R is extensible because I can write notes in the margins. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Dec 15 19:44:53 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA05383 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 19:44:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBG0bqTU075309; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:37:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBG0bq8S075307; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:37:52 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBG0bpq1075153 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:37:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so581225rnz for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:37:52 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=kTLCE+O2o5G0dLj8pezyCxS0ZI623qMHRT+dMMD2hXVouIoBGQVWMpiSBz5OhPnl+6CxD+f8gnkbqNo8HDpRPaaF9nk1LbbpjIdHnxv1gdLSilBhp6pO9/xYL1chGa+XqaQiKARlI4Ra804jv9nY90v0dnR1CbYPrVtyyhGHzJQ= Received: by 10.38.179.75 with SMTP id b75mr200375rnf; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:37:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.52 with HTTP; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:37:52 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0412151637501e0d19@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 01:37:52 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: mint@franklinmint.fm Subject: Re: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <41C0CD69.4050004@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <125F7834E11A5741A7D79412EE3504F90F26CD84@UK1APPS2.nature.com> <1f2ed5cd041215122274e5c6@mail.gmail.com> <41C0A372.3010708@franklinmint.fm> <1f2ed5cd04121515067e3d5ad5@mail.gmail.com> <41C0CD69.4050004@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:48:57 -0500, Robert Sayre wrote: > Danny Ayers wrote: > > > > "Said of a system (e.g., program, file format, programming language, > > protocol, etc.) designed to easily allow the addition of new features > > at a later date, e.g. through the use of hooks, an API or plug-ins." > > So you can't do that with RSS2 or Atom? Not really and not yet. See my previous post. XML Namespaces can enable pluggability, but don't automatically provide it. The core language (or a common underlying language) has to provide some form of hooks into its constructs. RSS 2.0 is generally lacking, Atom is getting there (IMHO). > > Does RSS 1.0 allow this? Yes, without a doubt, there is a complete > > supporting framework/language in which it is straightforward to define > > extensions on the same level as RSS (RDF/RDFS) or by building layers > > on top (OWL, rules etc). > > Yes, but you can't use your standard RDF serializer to write the RSS1. True, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. And most of the time in this context it really isn't an issue. My own RSS 1.0 feed is produced using WordPress with the FOAF Output plugin, and last time I looked used terms from 9 different namespaces. I'm fairly certain there's no generalised RDF modelling going on, but the output is (usually) spec-valid RSS 1.0 & also spec-valid RDF/XML. If I wanted to apply RDF processing, or use RDF queries, I'd read the stuff into a store, along with any other data I wanted to query in the same model (Before long I probably will move to a primarily RDF backend, but probably still make use of an RDBMS for the underlying store and templating for presentation). Whatever, currently the serialized data is still expressed in the rich language, even though as far as my blog templates are concerned it's dog-HTML. > > Does Atom allow this? That remains to be seen. Personally I'm hopeful > > that we've got past the assumption that namespaces alone will save us, > > and that we (will) have usable hooks which will make the format & > > protocol genuinely extensible, rather than just inheriting an 'X' in > > the title. > > OK, fair enough. How about > > xmlns="http://purl.org/atom/ns#draft-ietf-atompub-format-03" > xmlns:rdf="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#"> > Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok > > vemmi://example.org/2003/32397 > 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z > ... > > > This is just like RSS1, except there's a URI identifying the entry, and > the syntax defaults to XML literals. Also, you can use your standard RDF > serializer to write your statements. Of course, you'll have to use an > actual RDF parser to get them back out. The URI on the entry is a very good hook into the core constructs, for sure. Something like this could quite easily provide the same kind of extensibility RSS 1.0 has - exactly the same kind really, assuming the obvious triple interpretations of atom:title etc. I'm not really trying to suggest that it wouldn't be fairly straightforward to give Atom strong extensibility (or that RDF is needed somewhere, though it does seem the easy way). Just that I think the simple/extensible split in the Nature folk's diagram is (or maybe was, until relatively recently) a fairly reasonable observation. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Dec 15 20:42:22 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA10286 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:42:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBG1XnHh002920; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:33:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBG1Xn8a002919; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:33:49 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBG1XmV4002909 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:33:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (203.30.247.2) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:33:42 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:28:22 +1100 Subject: Re: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd0412151553442c6e2f@mail.gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 16/12/04 10:53 AM, "Danny Ayers" wrote: >> The limit isn't universally true - there are a few languages that support >> algorithmic creation of new words. German, for one IIRC. Turkish too. > > Sure, my apologies. no worries - my point was that while all languages generally share the same basic characteristic (words conveying meaning), some languages are architecturally better because they have extensibility built in. rather like RDF/XML vs vanilla XML e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 06:40:30 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA14592 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 06:40:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGBT1Nb023767; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 03:29:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGBT1wC023766; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 03:29:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-out-ldn-01.macmillan.co.uk (smtp-out-ldn-01.macmillan.co.uk [194.129.50.174]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGBSuW4023237 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 03:29:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from b.lund@nature.com) Received: from mpls-ldn-ms2.macmillan.co.uk (mpls-ldn-ms2.macmillan.co.uk [172.21.0.15]) by smtp-out-ldn-01.macmillan.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED9DD20C3C3 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 11:28:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from UK1APPS2.nature.com (unverified) by mpls-ldn-ms2.macmillan.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.3.14) with ESMTP id ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 11:28:47 +0000 Received: from [172.25.2.105] (L2009 [172.25.2.105]) by UK1APPS2.nature.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id Y741QZQF; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 11:28:47 -0000 Message-ID: <41C1719C.1010101@nature.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 11:29:32 +0000 From: Ben Lund User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (X11/20040926) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mint@franklinmint.fm Cc: Danny Ayers , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" References: <41C0CD69.4050004@franklinmint.fm> In-Reply-To: <41C0CD69.4050004@franklinmint.fm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Sayre wrote: > Danny Ayers wrote: > >>Does Atom allow this? That remains to be seen. Personally I'm hopeful >>that we've got past the assumption that namespaces alone will save us, >>and that we (will) have usable hooks which will make the format & >>protocol genuinely extensible, rather than just inheriting an 'X' in >>the title. > > > OK, fair enough. How about > > xmlns="http://purl.org/atom/ns#draft-ietf-atompub-format-03" > xmlns:rdf="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#"> > Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok > > vemmi://example.org/2003/32397 > 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z > ... > > > This is just like RSS1, except there's a URI identifying the entry I'm not sure I understand your point here. RSS 1.0 certainly also has a URI identifying the entry (or 'item') -- the rdf:about attribute. So this could be written as: Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok http://example.org/2003/12/13/atom03" 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z The RSS 1.0 spec doesn't mandate that an item's rdf:about be identical to it's , just that it should be if possible. Ta, Ben ******************************************************************************** DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS ******************************************************************************** From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 06:48:27 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA15046 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 06:48:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGBe3nk040118; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 03:40:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGBe32X040117; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 03:40:03 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-out-ldn-01.macmillan.co.uk (smtp-out-ldn-01.macmillan.co.uk [194.129.50.174]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGBe2e4040068 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 03:40:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from b.lund@nature.com) Received: from mpls-ldn-ms1.macmillan.co.uk (mpls-ldn-ms1.macmillan.co.uk [172.21.0.16]) by smtp-out-ldn-01.macmillan.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B57720C3C5 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 11:39:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from UK1APPS2.nature.com (unverified) by mpls-ldn-ms1.macmillan.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.3.14) with ESMTP id ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 11:39:58 +0000 Received: from [172.25.2.105] (L2009 [172.25.2.105]) by UK1APPS2.nature.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id Y741QZ6Q; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 11:39:58 -0000 Message-ID: <41C1743E.4020804@nature.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 11:40:46 +0000 From: Ben Lund User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (X11/20040926) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Danny Ayers Cc: mint@franklinmint.fm, atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" References: <1f2ed5cd0412151637501e0d19@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd0412151637501e0d19@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Danny, Danny Ayers wrote: > On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:48:57 -0500, Robert Sayre >>>Does RSS 1.0 allow this? Yes, without a doubt, there is a complete >>>supporting framework/language in which it is straightforward to > > define > >>>extensions on the same level as RSS (RDF/RDFS) or by building layers >>>on top (OWL, rules etc). >> >>Yes, but you can't use your standard RDF serializer to write the RSS1. > > > True, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. And in fact it has been done ;-) In Urchin we overrode RDF::Core::Model::Serializer to create an general RDF serializer that conforms to the RSS 1.0 restrictions (1). As long as, of course, there's some data using the RSS 1.0 vocabulary in the model being serialized... Ta, Ben 1. http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/urchin/urchin/Urchin/OutputFeed/RDF/Core/Model/Serializer.pm?rev=1.1&view=markup ******************************************************************************** DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS ******************************************************************************** From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 07:29:49 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA17997 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 07:29:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGCNMSb009313; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 04:23:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGCNM84009311; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 04:23:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGCNL4M009025 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 04:23:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jarober@gosmalltalk.com) Received: from victoria (pcp0010742366pcs.howard01.md.comcast.net[69.243.80.227]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with ESMTP id <20041216122314016007nn03e>; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:23:14 +0000 Received: from james2.gosmalltalk.com ([10.55.1.104]) by victoria (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id iBGCND922188 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 07:23:13 -0500 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20041216072139.026b3150@www.gosmalltalk.com> X-Sender: jarober@gosmalltalk.com@www.gosmalltalk.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 07:23:04 -0500 To: atom-syntax@imc.org From: James Robertson Subject: Re: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" In-Reply-To: <41C0D70F.9010505@dehora.net> References: <125F7834E11A5741A7D79412EE3504F90F26CD84@UK1APPS2.nature.com> <1f2ed5cd041215122274e5c6@mail.gmail.com> <41C0A372.3010708@franklinmint.fm> <1f2ed5cd04121515067e3d5ad5@mail.gmail.com> <41C0D70F.9010505@dehora.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At 07:30 PM 12/15/2004, you wrote: >Danny Ayers wrote: >>On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:49:54 -0500, Robert Sayre >>wrote: >> >>>I wasn't aware that RSS2 and Atom aren't extensible! >> >>Does RSS 2.0 allow addition of new features? Well yes, if you wheel in >>the XML namespaces layer and simultaneous knock out the "Simple" of >>syntax that caused the old fork. Was it designed for this? I reckon >>that's pushing it a little. > >It certainly does depend on your definition of extensible. Saying RSS2.0 >is extensible because I can drop in namespaced blocks is like saying my >copy of the K&R is extensible because I can write notes in the margins. In practice, this objection is meaningless. There are a number of namespaced modules that are used in RSS 2.0, and most aggregators understand them. And the ones that don't bypass them without a problem. This objection comes up all the time - and while there's a grain of truth to it, it's mostly nonsense >cheers >Bill > > James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView Cincom Smalltalk User Conference! http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView?entry=3275631428 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 07:45:54 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA18788 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 07:45:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGCc24H029315; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 04:38:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGCc2co029314; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 04:38:02 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-out-ldn-02.macmillan.co.uk (smtp-out-ldn-02.macmillan.co.uk [194.129.50.173]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGCc11H029013 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 04:38:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from b.lund@nature.com) Received: from mpls-ldn-ms2.macmillan.co.uk (mpls-ldn-ms2.macmillan.co.uk [172.21.0.15]) by smtp-out-ldn-02.macmillan.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EE3020C3DD for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:37:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from UK1APPS2.nature.com (unverified) by mpls-ldn-ms2.macmillan.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.3.14) with ESMTP id ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:37:53 +0000 Received: from [172.25.2.105] (L2009 [172.25.2.105]) by UK1APPS2.nature.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id Y741Q630; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:37:53 -0000 Message-ID: <41C181D1.3000800@nature.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:38:41 +0000 From: Ben Lund User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (X11/20040926) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Robertson Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" References: <125F7834E11A5741A7D79412EE3504F90F26CD84@UK1APPS2.nature.com> <1f2ed5cd041215122274e5c6@mail.gmail.com> <41C0A372.3010708@franklinmint.fm> <1f2ed5cd04121515067e3d5ad5@mail.gmail.com> <41C0D70F.9010505@dehora.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20041216072139.026b3150@www.gosmalltalk.com> In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041216072139.026b3150@www.gosmalltalk.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Robertson wrote: > > At 07:30 PM 12/15/2004, you wrote: > >> Danny Ayers wrote: >>> Does RSS 2.0 allow addition of new features? Well yes, if you wheel in >>> the XML namespaces layer and simultaneous knock out the "Simple" of >>> syntax that caused the old fork. Was it designed for this? I reckon >>> that's pushing it a little. >> >> >> It certainly does depend on your definition of extensible. Saying >> RSS2.0 is extensible because I can drop in namespaced blocks is like >> saying my copy of the K&R is extensible because I can write notes in >> the margins. > > > In practice, this objection is meaningless. There are a number of > namespaced modules that are used in RSS 2.0, and most aggregators > understand them. And the ones that don't bypass them without a problem. > > This objection comes up all the time - and while there's a grain of > truth to it, it's mostly nonsense > That depends entirely on the application you have in mind. For end- aggregators, it's mostly fine that they can ignore things they don't understand. But what about aggregating intermediaries? Unless there's a defined extensibility model, there's a large chance that the extra data in the exensions that the aggregator doesn't understand will be lost. RDF in RSS 1.0 make this a very simple problem to solve, whereas arbitrary XML namespaces makes it fiendishly difficult. Ta, Ben ******************************************************************************** DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS ******************************************************************************** From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 08:21:49 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA21519 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:21:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGDEMHh082911; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 05:14:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGDEMV7082910; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 05:14:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk ([161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGDELYx082366 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 05:14:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iBGDBxBi013811; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:12:00 GMT In-Reply-To: <41C181D1.3000800@nature.com> References: <125F7834E11A5741A7D79412EE3504F90F26CD84@UK1APPS2.nature.com> <1f2ed5cd041215122274e5c6@mail.gmail.com> <41C0A372.3010708@franklinmint.fm> <1f2ed5cd04121515067e3d5ad5@mail.gmail.com> <41C0D70F.9010505@dehora.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20041216072139.026b3150@www.gosmalltalk.com> <41C181D1.3000800@nature.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <1132AB4A-4F64-11D9-A5C5-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: James Robertson , atom-syntax@imc.org From: Graham Subject: Re: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:11:58 +0000 To: Ben Lund X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 16 Dec 2004, at 12:38 pm, Ben Lund wrote: > That depends entirely on the application you have in mind. For end- > aggregators, it's mostly fine that they can ignore things they don't > understand. But what about aggregating intermediaries? Unless > there's a defined extensibility model, there's a large chance that the > extra data in the exensions that the aggregator doesn't understand > will be lost. RDF in RSS 1.0 make this a very simple problem to > solve, whereas arbitrary XML namespaces makes it fiendishly difficult. What's difficult about just copying everything through? Why can't you do that? I can't think of any problems that wouldn't equally apply to RDF. Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 08:44:49 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA23127 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:44:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGDV26H099954; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 05:31:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGDV2Sx099953; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 05:31:02 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGDV1rJ099925 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 05:31:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.9]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cevib-0006Jz-0b; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:30:57 +0000 Message-ID: <41C18E0A.2080208@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:30:50 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ben Lund CC: Danny Ayers , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" References: <41C0CD69.4050004@franklinmint.fm> <41C1719C.1010101@nature.com> In-Reply-To: <41C1719C.1010101@nature.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ben Lund wrote: > > I'm not sure I understand your point here. RSS 1.0 certainly also has a > URI identifying the entry (or 'item') -- the rdf:about attribute. So > this could be written as: Would you use the rdf:about attribute as a GUID? I sure wouldn't. It doesn't identify the statements themselves. > > The RSS 1.0 spec doesn't mandate that an item's rdf:about be identical > to it's , just that it should be if possible. Someone should compile a list of the recommendations in that spec that are OK to ignore. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 08:53:36 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA23765 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:53:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGDeTik011555; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 05:40:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGDeT3j011554; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 05:40:29 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGDeSen011536 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 05:40:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.9]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cevrn-0006T2-CN; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:40:27 +0000 Message-ID: <41C19044.3070805@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:40:20 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ben Lund CC: James Robertson , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" References: <125F7834E11A5741A7D79412EE3504F90F26CD84@UK1APPS2.nature.com> <1f2ed5cd041215122274e5c6@mail.gmail.com> <41C0A372.3010708@franklinmint.fm> <1f2ed5cd04121515067e3d5ad5@mail.gmail.com> <41C0D70F.9010505@dehora.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20041216072139.026b3150@www.gosmalltalk.com> <41C181D1.3000800@nature.com> In-Reply-To: <41C181D1.3000800@nature.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ben Lund wrote: > > That depends entirely on the application you have in mind. For end- > aggregators, it's mostly fine that they can ignore things they don't > understand. But what about aggregating intermediaries? Unless there's > a defined extensibility model, there's a large chance that the extra > data in the exensions that the aggregator doesn't understand will be > lost. RDF in RSS 1.0 make this a very simple problem to solve, whereas > arbitrary XML namespaces makes it fiendishly difficult. Could you show us an example? I'm having a hard time understanding why the intermediary could pass on blobs of (X)HTML but not blobs of XML. I also don't understand why including rdf:RDF in atom:entry is insufficient. You'd have to consume it with an RDF parser and it would come in a container that isn't RDF itself, but I don't see a problem. It would eliminate the people pretending to use RDF that actually aren't--they remind me of American teenagers who get tatoos featuring chinese glyphs. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 09:07:14 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA24605 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:07:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGDraoV029647; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 05:53:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGDraQP029646; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 05:53:36 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.192]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGDrZUn029602 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 05:53:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so598703rnz for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 05:53:32 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=cso/TkrLMBuiIh4g5YAObX7Ux/xvSt5v1xeJfygJo85kYSfPNaB9noi9KNsNEddCfPV54XrcYh5U1LzNXcpui1wmy9mxTy1V76TeAz4vfoW65Wx6mywV8liDZht8T77WalIViBPvctpHsEgzSXmRXm7aEwCXoz+BtWMs2VwBaZU= Received: by 10.38.179.30 with SMTP id b30mr134114rnf; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 05:53:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.52 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 05:53:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0412160553760a3f88@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:53:32 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Graham Subject: Re: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" Cc: Ben Lund , James Robertson , atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <1132AB4A-4F64-11D9-A5C5-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <125F7834E11A5741A7D79412EE3504F90F26CD84@UK1APPS2.nature.com> <1f2ed5cd041215122274e5c6@mail.gmail.com> <41C0A372.3010708@franklinmint.fm> <1f2ed5cd04121515067e3d5ad5@mail.gmail.com> <41C0D70F.9010505@dehora.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20041216072139.026b3150@www.gosmalltalk.com> <41C181D1.3000800@nature.com> <1132AB4A-4F64-11D9-A5C5-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:11:58 +0000, Graham wrote: > > > On 16 Dec 2004, at 12:38 pm, Ben Lund wrote: > > That depends entirely on the application you have in mind. For end- > > aggregators, it's mostly fine that they can ignore things they don't > > understand. But what about aggregating intermediaries? Unless > > there's a defined extensibility model, there's a large chance that the > > extra data in the exensions that the aggregator doesn't understand > > will be lost. RDF in RSS 1.0 make this a very simple problem to > > solve, whereas arbitrary XML namespaces makes it fiendishly difficult. > > What's difficult about just copying everything through? Why can't you > do that? I can't think of any problems that wouldn't equally apply to > RDF. What if they receive multiple, non-identical versions of the same entry from different sources? Admittedly there isn't a conflict resolution defined for core RSS 1.0 components, e.g. where only a single value is mandated, but for extensions (which we are talking about here) the RDF model is clear (there is no conflict). With RSS 2.0 in such a circumstance all you would have is two or more XML fragments, without any specified means of gluing them together. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 09:18:33 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA25491 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:18:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGE4mkb039966; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 06:04:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGE4mjA039965; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 06:04:48 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail09.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail09.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iBGE4lto039801 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 06:04:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 35621 messnum 2022897 invoked from network[62.77.172.85/62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net]); 16 Dec 2004 14:04:43 -0000 Received: from 62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net (HELO ?200.200.200.58?) (62.77.172.85) by mail09.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 35621) with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 14:04:43 -0000 Message-ID: <41C19614.7080100@dehora.net> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:05:08 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Robertson CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" References: <125F7834E11A5741A7D79412EE3504F90F26CD84@UK1APPS2.nature.com> <1f2ed5cd041215122274e5c6@mail.gmail.com> <41C0A372.3010708@franklinmint.fm> <1f2ed5cd04121515067e3d5ad5@mail.gmail.com> <41C0D70F.9010505@dehora.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20041216072139.026b3150@www.gosmalltalk.com> In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041216072139.026b3150@www.gosmalltalk.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Robertson wrote: > In practice, this objection is meaningless. There are a number of > namespaced modules that are used in RSS 2.0, and most aggregators > understand them. And the ones that don't bypass them without a problem. If you are right, I take this as meaning RSS2.0 Atom doesn't require extensibility. They only require modularity, which XML+Namespaces provides. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 10:05:20 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA02694 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:05:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGEsObE084159; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 06:54:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGEsOHm084157; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 06:54:24 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from imo-d23.mx.aol.com (imo-d23.mx.aol.com [205.188.139.137]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGEsNWa084007 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 06:54:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Svgdeveloper@aol.com) Received: from Svgdeveloper@aol.com by imo-d23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id e.75.3abd027a (3858); Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:54:11 -0500 (EST) From: Svgdeveloper@aol.com Message-ID: <75.3abd027a.2ef2fb93@aol.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:54:11 EST Subject: Re: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" To: mint@franklinmint.fm, atom-syntax@imc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_75.3abd027a.2ef2fb93_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 670 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --part1_75.3abd027a.2ef2fb93_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/15/2004 8:51:43 PM GMT Standard Time, mint@franklinmint.fm writes: > I wasn't aware that RSS2 and Atom aren't extensible! > > +-----------( Figure 2 )-------------------------+ > | | > | (Simple: Plain XML) | > | | > | +---(0.91)--(0.92)--(2.0)--(Atom) | > | | | > | | | > | --(0.9)---+---(1.0) | > | | > | (Extensible: RDF/XML) | > | | > +------------------------------------------------+ > > Sigh... One thing that struck me from the diagram that Robert redrew is the implicit assertion that Atom 0.3/1.0 is a descendant of RSS 2.0. The term "lineage" is used in the figure caption in the paper that Danny pointed us to. That seems to me to go beyond the reality. Also classifying Atom as "RSS" (as the paper does) doesn't seem to me to aid clarity. Andrew Watt --part1_75.3abd027a.2ef2fb93_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 12/15/2004 8:51:= 43 PM GMT Standard Time, mint@franklinmint.fm writes:

I wasn't aware that RSS2 and At= om aren't extensible!

+-----------( Figure 2 )-------------------------+
|            &nb= sp;            |
|        (Simple: Plain XML)  &= nbsp;      |
|            &nb= sp;            |
|       +---(0.91)--(0.92)--(2.0)--(Atom) = ;  |
|       |      &= nbsp;            | |       |      &= nbsp;            | |  --(0.9)---+---(1.0)        &= nbsp;      |
|            &nb= sp;            |
|        (Extensible: RDF/XML)  = ;      |
|            &nb= sp;            |
+------------------------------------------------+

Sigh...


One thing that struck me from the diagram that Robert redrew is the implicit= assertion that Atom 0.3/1.0 is a descendant of RSS 2.0.

The term "lineage" is used in the figure caption in the paper that Danny poi= nted us to. That seems to me to go beyond the reality.

Also classifying Atom as "RSS" (as the paper does) doesn't seem to me to aid= clarity.

Andrew Watt --part1_75.3abd027a.2ef2fb93_boundary-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 10:12:26 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA03595 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:12:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGF58B6096031; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 07:05:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGF58MK096030; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 07:05:08 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGF574s095950 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 07:05:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jarober@gosmalltalk.com) Received: from victoria (pcp0010742366pcs.howard01.md.comcast.net[69.243.80.227]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with ESMTP id <2004121615050401300focr1e>; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:05:04 +0000 Received: from james2.gosmalltalk.com ([10.55.1.104]) by victoria (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id iBGF52922464 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:05:02 -0500 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20041216100325.029efa00@www.gosmalltalk.com> X-Sender: jarober@gosmalltalk.com@www.gosmalltalk.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:04:53 -0500 To: atom-syntax@imc.org From: James Robertson Subject: Re: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" In-Reply-To: <41C19614.7080100@dehora.net> References: <125F7834E11A5741A7D79412EE3504F90F26CD84@UK1APPS2.nature.com> <1f2ed5cd041215122274e5c6@mail.gmail.com> <41C0A372.3010708@franklinmint.fm> <1f2ed5cd04121515067e3d5ad5@mail.gmail.com> <41C0D70F.9010505@dehora.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20041216072139.026b3150@www.gosmalltalk.com> <41C19614.7080100@dehora.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At 09:05 AM 12/16/2004, you wrote: >James Robertson wrote: > >>In practice, this objection is meaningless. There are a number of >>namespaced modules that are used in RSS 2.0, and most aggregators >>understand them. And the ones that don't bypass them without a problem. > >If you are right, I take this as meaning RSS2.0 Atom doesn't require >extensibility. They only require modularity, which XML+Namespaces provides. For the most common use case - news updates - that's the case. I can't really speak to other potential uses. However, I tend to take a dim view of functionality that is intended for "future needs" - we tend to be very bad at predicting real future needs >cheers >Bill > James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView Cincom Smalltalk User Conference! http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView?entry=3275631428 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 11:25:52 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA10217 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 11:25:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGGAvQs037522; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:10:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGGAv7o037521; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:10:57 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGGAuAn037449 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:10:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iBGG7CGl028918; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:07:21 GMT In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd0412160553760a3f88@mail.gmail.com> References: <125F7834E11A5741A7D79412EE3504F90F26CD84@UK1APPS2.nature.com> <1f2ed5cd041215122274e5c6@mail.gmail.com> <41C0A372.3010708@franklinmint.fm> <1f2ed5cd04121515067e3d5ad5@mail.gmail.com> <41C0D70F.9010505@dehora.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20041216072139.026b3150@www.gosmalltalk.com> <41C181D1.3000800@nature.com> <1132AB4A-4F64-11D9-A5C5-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <1f2ed5cd0412160553760a3f88@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <8B0AEC7C-4F7C-11D9-A5C5-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Atom WG From: Graham Subject: Re: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:07:11 +0000 To: Danny Ayers X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 16 Dec 2004, at 1:53 pm, Danny Ayers wrote: > What if they receive multiple, non-identical versions of the same > entry from different sources? > Admittedly there isn't a conflict resolution defined for core RSS 1.0 > components, e.g. where only a single value is mandated, but for > extensions (which we are talking about here) the RDF model is clear > (there is no conflict). Well you have 2 (or 3) choices: 1. Use the newer entry 2. a) Mix all the elements in one container or b) as a), but remove duplicately named elements. Option 1 requires app-specific knowledge, which RDF can't help you with. Neither 2a or 2b will necessarily produce valid results, but again, I'm not aware of a feature in RDF that will help. (also please don't use the word "receive", we request things around here) Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 11:29:26 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA10686 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 11:29:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGGAVSa037343; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:10:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGGAVm6037342; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:10:31 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from xbox.wkearney.com (xbox.wkearney.com [66.92.145.79]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGGAPrJ037282 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:10:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wkearney@syndic8.com) Received: from media (media.wkearney.com [192.168.12.32]) by xbox.wkearney.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 114DABC8B4 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 11:10:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <097a01c4e389$bc2cbdd0$200ca8c0@wkearney.com> From: "Bill Kearney" Cc: References: <41C0CD69.4050004@franklinmint.fm> <41C1719C.1010101@nature.com> <41C18E0A.2080208@franklinmint.fm> Subject: Re: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 11:10:16 -0500 Organization: http://www.ideaspace.net/users/wkearney/foaf.xrdf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I'm not sure I understand your point here. RSS 1.0 certainly also has a > > URI identifying the entry (or 'item') -- the rdf:about attribute. So > > this could be written as: > > Would you use the rdf:about attribute as a GUID? I sure wouldn't. It > doesn't identify the statements themselves. For an that's exactly what it's intended to provide. > > The RSS 1.0 spec doesn't mandate that an item's rdf:about be identical > > to it's , just that it should be if possible. > > Someone should compile a list of the recommendations in that spec that > are OK to ignore. That's not what's involved. One has to appreciate the reasons RSS has been used, over time, to grasp why the link and item about URL have been interchangeable. Since tools existed that expected a link to be present it wasn't a good idea to take it out. Many feeds, at the time, used the item to say something about what the link pointed toward. In those feeds there was no expectation that the item would have it's own web page. This was a debate that raged for quite a while. The emergence of easy weblogging tools changed that. But then half-assed RSS spec hijacking screwed up unique identifiers. -Bill Kearney Syndic8.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 11:31:15 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA10763 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 11:31:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGGOobH045015; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:24:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGGOoXS045014; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:24:50 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-out-ldn-02.macmillan.co.uk (smtp-out-ldn-02.macmillan.co.uk [194.129.50.173]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGGOn6G044989 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:24:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from b.lund@nature.com) Received: from mpls-ldn-ms1.macmillan.co.uk (mpls-ldn-ms1.macmillan.co.uk [172.21.0.16]) by smtp-out-ldn-02.macmillan.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EC9D20C37D for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:24:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from UK1APPS2.nature.com (unverified) by mpls-ldn-ms1.macmillan.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.3.14) with ESMTP id ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:24:47 +0000 Received: from [172.25.2.105] (L2009 [172.25.2.105]) by UK1APPS2.nature.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id Y741RB4J; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:24:47 -0000 Message-ID: <41C1B6FF.9030709@nature.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:25:35 +0000 From: Ben Lund User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (X11/20040926) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mint@franklinmint.fm Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" References: <41C0CD69.4050004@franklinmint.fm> <41C1719C.1010101@nature.com> <41C18E0A.2080208@franklinmint.fm> In-Reply-To: <41C18E0A.2080208@franklinmint.fm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Sayre wrote: > Ben Lund wrote: > >> >> I'm not sure I understand your point here. RSS 1.0 certainly also has >> a URI identifying the entry (or 'item') -- the rdf:about attribute. >> So this could be written as: > > > Would you use the rdf:about attribute as a GUID? I sure wouldn't. It > doesn't identify the statements themselves. Ah, I see. No, the item's URI doesn't identify a set of statements, but it is the common subject for that set. I'd be interested in working out whether there's a practical difference between those two concepts. > >> >> The RSS 1.0 spec doesn't mandate that an item's rdf:about be identical >> to it's , just that it should be if possible. > > > Someone should compile a list of the recommendations in that spec that > are OK to ignore. ;-) The spec itself is pretty clear on this one though: "{item_uri} should be identical to the value of the sub-element of the element, if possible." (http://web.resource.org/rss/1.0/spec#s5.5) Ta, Ben --- ******************************************************************************** DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS ******************************************************************************** From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 11:41:22 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA11646 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 11:41:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGGXJOI049919; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:33:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGGXJrw049918; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:33:19 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com (imo-d06.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.38]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGGXI3l049877 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:33:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Svgdeveloper@aol.com) Received: from Svgdeveloper@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id 7.92.1c2edae7 (3858) for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 11:33:01 -0500 (EST) From: Svgdeveloper@aol.com Message-ID: <92.1c2edae7.2ef312bc@aol.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 11:33:00 EST Subject: What is Atom for? To: atom-syntax@imc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_92.1c2edae7.2ef312bc_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 670 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --part1_92.1c2edae7.2ef312bc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The question in this post's title says it all, I guess. And, No, it isn't intended as a flame. I would prefer answers that illuminate, not simply raise the temperature. :) I have been asking myself the question in this post's title recently and failing to come up with a totally compelling answer. I guess the Nature article on RSS in Science tipped me from the wondering mode to the asking mode. :) I went back to the Atom Charter, http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/atompub-charter.html, to see if it provided clarity of purpose. In my view, it didn't. And, looking back at Tim Bray's blog post, "The Atom End-Game", http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2004/11/11/AtomInnovation , it didn't seem to be referring to the process that the Charter describes. Hence my fairly fundamental question. If the answer is clear it shouldn't take long to dispose of the question. If the answers are not clear then, in my view, that is an interesting situation in itself. Andrew Watt --part1_92.1c2edae7.2ef312bc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The question in this post's title s= ays it all, I guess. And, No, it isn't intended as a flame. I would prefer a= nswers that illuminate, not simply raise the temperature. :)

I have been asking myself the question in this post's title recently and fai= ling to come up with a totally compelling answer. I guess the Nature article= on RSS in Science tipped me from the wondering mode to the asking mode. :)<= BR>
I went back to the Atom Charter, http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/atompub-charter.ht= ml, to see if it provided clarity of purpose. In my view, it didn't.

And, looking back at Tim Bray's blog post, "The Atom End-Game", http= ://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2004/11/11/AtomInnovation , it didn't= seem to be referring to the process that the Charter describes.

Hence my fairly fundamental question.

If the answer is clear it shouldn't take long to dispose of the question. If= the answers are not clear then, in my view, that is an interesting situatio= n in itself.

Andrew Watt --part1_92.1c2edae7.2ef312bc_boundary-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 11:54:37 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA12732 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 11:54:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGGm8VF054350; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:48:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGGm80V054349; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:48:08 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGGm7lZ054302 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:48:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iBGGkuxp026311; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:46:56 GMT In-Reply-To: <92.1c2edae7.2ef312bc@aol.com> References: <92.1c2edae7.2ef312bc@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <17EBC186-4F82-11D9-A5C5-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Graham Subject: Re: What is Atom for? Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:46:54 +0000 To: Svgdeveloper@aol.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 16 Dec 2004, at 4:33 pm, Svgdeveloper@aol.com wrote: > I went back to the Atom Charter, > http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/atompub-charter.html, to see if it > provided clarity of purpose. In my view, it didn't. "Atom defines a feed format for representing and a protocol for editing Web resources such as Weblogs, online journals, Wikis, and similar content" That seems pretty clear to me. I'm not sure it matches what the working group had (or has) in mind, but I don't see what's vague about it. Can you expand? From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 12:14:13 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA14099 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:14:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGH4D0L061377; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:04:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGH4Dc2061376; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:04:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr5.netsolmail.com (omr5.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.142]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGH4C6F061357 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:04:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr5.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iBGH3NrF020152; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:04:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id CDH87099 (AUTH bob@wyman.us); Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:02:39 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200412161702.CDH87099@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Atom WG'" Subject: Yahoo and "Media RSS" Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:02:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-Index: AcTjkPqsZyf2K/NYRoifS2SA2/tt4A== Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yahoo has recently announced "Media RSS" which is "An RSS module that supplements the element capabilities of RSS 2.0 to allow for more robust media syndication". It would seem to make sense for us to consider how something similar, would be provided within an Atom based system. See: "Media RSS" Specification Version .9 (DRAFT) http://tools.search.yahoo.com/mrss/ Frequently Asked Questions about Media RSS http://tools.search.yahoo.com/mrss/mrss.html bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 12:15:27 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA14194 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:15:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGH6t3C062225; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:06:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGH6tsT062223; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:06:55 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-out-ldn-01.macmillan.co.uk (smtp-out-ldn-01.macmillan.co.uk [194.129.50.174]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGH6srl062188 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:06:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from b.lund@nature.com) Received: from mpls-ldn-ms2.macmillan.co.uk (mpls-ldn-ms2.macmillan.co.uk [172.21.0.15]) by smtp-out-ldn-01.macmillan.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 067B120C46A for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 17:06:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from UK1APPS2.nature.com (unverified) by mpls-ldn-ms2.macmillan.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.3.14) with ESMTP id ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 17:06:51 +0000 Received: from [172.25.2.105] (L2009 [172.25.2.105]) by UK1APPS2.nature.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id Y741RDB6; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 17:06:51 -0000 Message-ID: <41C1C0DC.9090501@nature.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 17:07:40 +0000 From: Ben Lund User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (X11/20040926) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mint@franklinmint.fm Cc: James Robertson , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" References: <125F7834E11A5741A7D79412EE3504F90F26CD84@UK1APPS2.nature.com> <1f2ed5cd041215122274e5c6@mail.gmail.com> <41C0A372.3010708@franklinmint.fm> <1f2ed5cd04121515067e3d5ad5@mail.gmail.com> <41C0D70F.9010505@dehora.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20041216072139.026b3150@www.gosmalltalk.com> <41C181D1.3000800@nature.com> <41C19044.3070805@franklinmint.fm> In-Reply-To: <41C19044.3070805@franklinmint.fm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Sayre wrote: > Ben Lund wrote: > >> >> That depends entirely on the application you have in mind. For end- >> aggregators, it's mostly fine that they can ignore things they don't >> understand. But what about aggregating intermediaries? Unless >> there's a defined extensibility model, there's a large chance that the >> extra data in the exensions that the aggregator doesn't understand >> will be lost. RDF in RSS 1.0 make this a very simple problem to >> solve, whereas arbitrary XML namespaces makes it fiendishly difficult. > > > Could you show us an example? I'm having a hard time understanding why > the intermediary could pass on blobs of (X)HTML but not blobs of XML. > Sure (but bear in mind that I said it would be fiendishly difficult, not impossible): I'm thinking of two use cases here: 1) Aggregating information where two different trusted sources both publish data about the same item. For example, a feed from a science publisher that gave the bibliographic metadata, and a feed from a citation indexer gave 'cited by' information. How does the intermediary concatenate the two blobs of XML? Remember, I'm talking about situations where the intermediary doesn't understand the namespace being used, so from the point of view of the aggregator, the two blobs look like this: http://www.example.com/item1 Blah blah ... gfdgfdgfd gfdgfd 65454343 and http://www.example.com/item1 Blah blah ... gfdgfd bvcbvvcbvc ytytryrt 6768875 There's no easy way of working out how to combine this information. However, with RDF, you can just concatenate the triples. 2) Aggregating feeds from different sources, and then allowing new feeds to be generated based on queries to arbitrary fields. This means that the aggregator has to capture any incoming data in some sort of schema. In my experience its easier to do that if that incoming data already has a data model more contrained than the XML hierarchical model. > I also don't understand why including rdf:RDF in atom:entry is > insufficient. You'd have to consume it with an RDF parser and it would > come in a container that isn't RDF itself, but I don't see a problem. My view is that the RDF model buys you everything you need at the moment for an extensibility model -- that's why we use RSS 1.0 currently. So, I don't particularly have a problem with the approach of putting rdf:RDF in an atom:entry. But that does beg the question of why Atom needs two separate data models. Ta, Ben ******************************************************************************** DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS ******************************************************************************** From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 12:20:07 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA14737 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:20:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGHB6In064297; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:11:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGHB6xt064296; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:11:06 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail08.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail08.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.24]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iBGHB52c064275 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:11:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 98286 messnum 3869447 invoked from network[62.77.172.85/62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net]); 16 Dec 2004 17:11:02 -0000 Received: from 62-77-172-85.customer.eircom.net (HELO ?200.200.200.58?) (62.77.172.85) by mail08.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 98286) with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 17:11:02 -0000 Message-ID: <41C1C1C0.5070804@dehora.net> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 17:11:28 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: What is Atom for? References: <92.1c2edae7.2ef312bc@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <92.1c2edae7.2ef312bc@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Svgdeveloper@aol.com wrote: > If the answer is clear it shouldn't take long to dispose of the > question. If the answers are not clear then, in my view, that is an > interesting situation in itself. We have never beaten our wives, Andrew ;) cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 12:44:10 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA17264 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:44:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGHZKIj073214; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:35:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGHZKJL073213; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:35:20 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.203]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGHZI8R073188 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:35:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so608451rnz for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:35:17 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=dqEWeT3kaozh7dg+UBR8Znl4+Tdemfj9MKMO9Czr0qfpvaKCv46LLWSVvecf5zCL9usApU1Ib+vzSiMng8T/OsIiH7ig8f3P2CvazxkPfbfDffv4I0hRnts8oFAlTUS2qxuI0YnEbCXBnnyqFyqwSK84o6WLAcNopyX0+4O5J3A= Received: by 10.38.206.35 with SMTP id d35mr200813rng; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:35:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.52 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:35:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0412160935210775d6@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 18:35:16 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Graham Subject: Re: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: <8B0AEC7C-4F7C-11D9-A5C5-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <125F7834E11A5741A7D79412EE3504F90F26CD84@UK1APPS2.nature.com> <1f2ed5cd041215122274e5c6@mail.gmail.com> <41C0A372.3010708@franklinmint.fm> <1f2ed5cd04121515067e3d5ad5@mail.gmail.com> <41C0D70F.9010505@dehora.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20041216072139.026b3150@www.gosmalltalk.com> <41C181D1.3000800@nature.com> <1132AB4A-4F64-11D9-A5C5-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> <1f2ed5cd0412160553760a3f88@mail.gmail.com> <8B0AEC7C-4F7C-11D9-A5C5-000A95DC3D90@mac.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:07:11 +0000, Graham wrote: > On 16 Dec 2004, at 1:53 pm, Danny Ayers wrote: > > > What if they receive multiple, non-identical versions of the same > > entry from different sources? > > Admittedly there isn't a conflict resolution defined for core RSS 1.0 > > components, e.g. where only a single value is mandated, but for > > extensions (which we are talking about here) the RDF model is clear > > (there is no conflict). > > Well you have 2 (or 3) choices: > 1. Use the newer entry > 2. a) Mix all the elements in one container > or b) as a), but remove duplicately named elements. > > Option 1 requires app-specific knowledge, which RDF can't help you > with. Neither 2a or 2b will necessarily produce valid results, but > again, I'm not aware of a feature in RDF that will help. What helps in RDF is that according to the model, there is no such ambiguity at the common language level - there are no choices. This provides independence, orthogonality between the message-passing and the application-level interpretation. For example, say the following came from sourceA: Spring the following from sourceB: Summer assuming both items have the same id (however expressed), everything else removed for clarity The RDF interpretation would be two statements, which could be wrapped back up into pseudo-RSS as: Spring Summer The RDF/XML interpretation mechanism provides clear communication of data within a known data model. It's an unambiguous message in this model. What the application does with it is another matter - it's a different layer. But without such a mechanism, the choices are back down at the level of XML syntax, there isn't even a domain-specific grammar to draw on. > (also please don't use the word "receive", we request things around > here) I'd suggest this all occurs above the wire protocol, but ok, I'll try not to ;-) Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 13:13:35 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA19898 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:13:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGI4VlF083643; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:04:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGI4VfU083642; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:04:31 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from imo-m22.mx.aol.com (imo-m22.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGI4UJe083621 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:04:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Svgdeveloper@aol.com) Received: from Svgdeveloper@aol.com by imo-m22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id q.9f.54784009 (3858); Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:04:21 -0500 (EST) From: Svgdeveloper@aol.com Message-ID: <9f.54784009.2ef32824@aol.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:04:20 EST Subject: Re: What is Atom for? To: dtcd@mac.com, atom-syntax@imc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_9f.54784009.2ef32824_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 670 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --part1_9f.54784009.2ef32824_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 12/16/2004 4:49:34 PM GMT Standard Time, dtcd@mac.com=20 writes: > On 16 Dec 2004, at 4:33 pm, Svgdeveloper@aol.com wrote: >=20 > >I went back to the Atom Charter,=20 > >http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/atompub-charter.html, to see if it=20 > >provided clarity of purpose. In my view, it didn't. >=20 > "Atom defines a feed format for representing and a protocol for > editing Web resources such as Weblogs, online journals, Wikis, > and similar content" >=20 > That seems pretty clear to me. I'm not sure it matches what the working=20 > group had (or has) in mind, but I don't see what's vague about it. Can=20 > you expand? Let's take that one sentence from the Charter, as a starting point. I can write http://www.tfosorcim.org/blog/ which is a URL which "represents"= =20 my blog. Fine. But that's not what the Charter is (I assume) suggesting doin= g.=20 So, in what sense will an Atom feed format specification "represent" a Web=20 resource? Let's take the next sentence of the Charter: "The feed format enables syndication; that is, provision of a channel of=20 information by representing multiple resources in a single document.". Is that what syndication is? Let's take the next sentence: "The editing protocol enables agents to interact with resources by nominatin= g=20 a way of using existing Web standards in a pattern." Care to translate, anyone? :) And the next: "Atom consists of: =A0 =A0 * A conceptual model of a resource" Where is this "conceptual model" defined in either the Syndication Format or= =20 Protocol specifications? And the next: "* A concrete syntax for this model" If the model is not defined how can we know whether this is achieved or not? And the next: "* A syndication and archiving format (the Atom =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 feed format) using this syntax" An archiving format? Where in the current drafts is that defined? Why wasn't= =20 the archiving format mentioned in the first sentence? I hope, by now, that it is becoming clearer to you that it's not obvious tha= t=20 things are "clear" in the Charter. It is also not clear to me, switching to a more practical level, what I will= =20 be able to do in, say, 12 months time if Atom 1.0 exists that I can't do=20 today. That isn't to say that there is no reason for Atom to exist, simply t= hat its=20 purpose and benefits ... "what it's for" ... are not as clear to me at the=20 moment as I would like. And that was the purpose of my original question to try to clarify the silt=20 that is muddying the waters in my own perceptions of Atom. In the past I have found that when I have this muddy thinking about=20 fundamental issues relating to a project that it often helps just to express= those=20 uncertainties as a question. If it's clear and I have been missing something= =20 obvious then I learn and we can all move on. If, as I suspect in this case,=20= it's=20 not quite as clear as some hope then it's better to explore the issues that=20 contribute to that lack of clarity, rather than pretending they are not ther= e. Andrew Watt --part1_9f.54784009.2ef32824_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 12/16/2004 4:49:= 34 PM GMT Standard Time, dtcd@mac.com writes:

On 16 Dec 2004, at 4:33 pm, Svg= developer@aol.com wrote:

>I went back to the Atom Charter,
>http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/atompub-charter.html, to see if it >provided clarity of purpose. In my view, it didn't.

"Atom defines a feed format for representing and a protocol for
editing Web resources such as Weblogs, online journals, Wikis,
and similar content"

That seems pretty clear to me. I'm not sure it matches what the working
group had (or has) in mind, but I don't see what's vague about it. Can
you expand?


Let's take that one sentence from the Charter, as a starting point.

I can write http://www.tfosorcim.= org/blog/ which is a URL which "represents" my blog. Fine. But that's no= t what the Charter is (I assume) suggesting doing. So, in what sense will an= Atom feed format specification "represent" a Web resource?

Let's take the next sentence of the Charter:
"The feed format enables syndication; that is, provision of a channel of inf= ormation by representing multiple resources in a single document.".

Is that what syndication is?

Let's take the next sentence:
"The editing protocol enables agents to interact with resources by nominatin= g a way of using existing Web standards in a pattern."

Care to translate, anyone? :)

And the next:
"Atom consists of:
=A0 =A0 * A conceptual model of a resource"

Where is this "conceptual model" defined in either the Syndication Format or= Protocol specifications?

And the next:
"* A concrete syntax for this model"

If the model is not defined how can we know whether this is achieved or not?=

And the next:
"* A syndication and archiving format (the Atom
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 feed format) using this syntax"

An archiving format? Where in the current drafts is that defined? Why wasn't= the archiving format mentioned in the first sentence?

I hope, by now, that it is becoming clearer to you that it's not obvious tha= t things are "clear" in the Charter.

It is also not clear to me, switching to a more practical level, what I will= be able to do in, say, 12 months time if Atom 1.0 exists that I can't do to= day. That isn't to say that there is no reason for Atom to exist, simply tha= t its purpose and benefits ... "what it's for" ... are not as clear to me at= the moment as I would like.

And that was the purpose of my original question to try to clarify the silt=20= that is muddying the waters in my own perceptions of Atom.

In the past I have found that when I have this muddy thinking about fundamen= tal issues relating to a project that it often helps just to express those u= ncertainties as a question. If it's clear and I have been missing something=20= obvious then I learn and we can all move on. If, as I suspect in this case,=20= it's not quite as clear as some hope then it's better to explore the issues=20= that contribute to that lack of clarity, rather than pretending they are not= there.

Andrew Watt --part1_9f.54784009.2ef32824_boundary-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 13:16:56 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA20115 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:16:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGI9Nnb085446; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:09:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGI9NBq085445; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:09:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.204]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGI9Mov085416 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:09:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so609864rnz for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:09:20 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=R0UFb65hwS5NPICU8UAHh7vgROXd3QfhOVJqFwJOLmPlW9v7KrSXp8MsSPniefN9jH2sso/IGrk22di1JxGzFvkYtgVe1agUrinbbR5HUIdktgK5FlCOkQHgNDe162+v3RsEYBKdXfJyHrCmb7TcqWLc44PXu3qjOB/T0FcnaMc= Received: by 10.38.8.45 with SMTP id 45mr218083rnh; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:09:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.52 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:09:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04121610092c64752f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 19:09:19 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: bob@wyman.us Subject: Re: Yahoo and "Media RSS" Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: <200412161702.CDH87099@ms8.netsolmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200412161702.CDH87099@ms8.netsolmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks a little broken: The attributes aren't namespace-qualified, yet aren't defined in the RSS 2.0 spec. Does anyone happen to know if this being discussed on a public list anywhere, or is syndication back in cloak-and-dagger-then-deploy-loudly land... Cheeers, Danny. On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:02:09 -0500, Bob Wyman wrote: > > Yahoo has recently announced "Media RSS" which is "An RSS module that > supplements the element capabilities of RSS 2.0 to allow for > more robust media syndication". It would seem to make sense for us to > consider how something similar, would be provided within an Atom based > system. > > See: "Media RSS" Specification Version .9 (DRAFT) > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/mrss/ > > Frequently Asked Questions about Media RSS > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/mrss/mrss.html > > bob wyman > > -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 13:23:55 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA20777 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:23:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGIFmZY089054; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:15:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGIFmh4089053; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:15:48 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGIFlFs088983 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:15:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so610113rnz for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:15:47 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=AXJGp2H7x4SRLbl8IIMyjVte8en2pnqeaBLAMuhMbKmwiLLfHF22fNFKIKkr213aKScUaEVshejRfJ35gVk1XPti+vEpaXgWFhnlQXFsUeBr6nwnhTj4PeGux6WWXvI7LNbTEgz8k4GVv3PceDR7RzlmjSg/IHB6Ei++99jYT0o= Received: by 10.38.206.35 with SMTP id d35mr212804rng; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:15:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.52 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:15:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0412161015d5381d6@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 19:15:47 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: bob@wyman.us Subject: Re: Yahoo and "Media RSS" Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd04121610092c64752f@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200412161702.CDH87099@ms8.netsolmail.com> <1f2ed5cd04121610092c64752f@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Does anyone happen to know if this being discussed on a public list > anywhere, or is syndication back in > cloak-and-dagger-then-deploy-loudly land... My bad, hadn't read faq properly, here's a list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-media -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 14:11:30 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA27235 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:11:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGJ1DpT024393; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 11:01:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGJ1DvK024392; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 11:01:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (imo-d05.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.37]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGJ1CKv024352 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 11:01:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Svgdeveloper@aol.com) Received: from Svgdeveloper@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id o.157.46342bf1 (3858); Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:01:03 -0500 (EST) From: Svgdeveloper@aol.com Message-ID: <157.46342bf1.2ef3356e@aol.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:01:02 EST Subject: Re: Yahoo and "Media RSS" To: danny.ayers@gmail.com, atom-syntax@imc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_157.46342bf1.2ef3356e_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 670 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --part1_157.46342bf1.2ef3356e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/16/2004 6:10:25 PM GMT Standard Time, danny.ayers@gmail.com writes: > Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks a little broken: > > type="video/quicktime" > playerUrl="http://www.foo.com/player?id=1111" playerHeight="200" > playerWidth="400" > isDefault="true" expression="full" bitrate="128" duration="185"> > > The attributes aren't namespace-qualified, yet aren't defined in the > RSS 2.0 spec. Doesn't the errata of Namespaces in XML cover this? Although NE07 says something which I surmise it didn't intend to say. :) Aren't namespaces in XML wonderful? :) Andrew Watt --part1_157.46342bf1.2ef3356e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 12/16/2004 6:10:= 25 PM GMT Standard Time, danny.ayers@gmail.com writes:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it= looks a little broken:

<media:content url=3D"http://www.foo.com/movie.mov" fileSize=3D"12216320"=
type=3D"video/quicktime"
  playerUrl=3D"http://www.foo.com/player?id=3D1111" playerHeight=3D"200= "
playerWidth=3D"400"
  isDefault=3D"true" expression=3D"full" bitrate=3D"128" duration=3D"18= 5">

The attributes aren't namespace-qualified, yet aren't defined in the
RSS 2.0 spec.


Doesn't the errata of Namespaces in XML cover this?

Although NE07 says something which I surmise it didn't intend to say. :)

Aren't namespaces in XML wonderful? :)

Andrew Watt --part1_157.46342bf1.2ef3356e_boundary-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 15:12:53 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA03061 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:12:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGK5GIg066242; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:05:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGK5GII066237; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:05:16 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chromium.sabren.com (chromium.sabren.com [69.20.61.177]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGK5F7L066218 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:05:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.1.103] (rdu57-27-065.nc.rr.com [66.57.27.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by chromium.sabren.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iBGK5I0Q025861; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:05:19 -0500 Message-ID: <41C1EA79.2070508@intertwingly.net> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:05:13 -0500 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040803 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Danny Ayers CC: Atom WG Subject: Re: Yahoo and "Media RSS" References: <200412161702.CDH87099@ms8.netsolmail.com> <1f2ed5cd04121610092c64752f@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd04121610092c64752f@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Danny Ayers wrote: > > The attributes aren't namespace-qualified, yet aren't defined in the > RSS 2.0 spec. They don't need to be defined in the RSS 2.0 spec. Semantics of attributes on an element are defined by the element itself, not by the containing document. - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 15:13:30 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA03167 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:13:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGK5oIT066665; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:05:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGK5ofp066664; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:05:50 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.203]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGK5kuG066631 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:05:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so3432rnz for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:05:45 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=li2caBRAAuHV8bdq0Qa/jVYjr71kYDOUYoJqqwcVvcB/5hi4BsT7HS+kronMSiSdjlCiHLr3Nh3oiz+wwRymaIIygJu3S0SKlGU2FXWd4zN3uqwXeDkwVL3cTEWDwtOIhDNiAa3CCJ8C4j7eUXbnY1BI3LAjuNlQupx/EpbyrCw= Received: by 10.38.8.45 with SMTP id 45mr254692rnh; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:05:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.52 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:05:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04121612055332c259@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 21:05:45 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: "Svgdeveloper@aol.com" Subject: Re: Yahoo and "Media RSS" Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org, rss-media@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <157.46342bf1.2ef3356e@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <157.46342bf1.2ef3356e@aol.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok, I couldn't get my head around the namespace spec+errata, so decided to try a little code, put my trust in Sun instead. I'm still not 100% certain, but it does still look to me like the lack of prefix on the attributes is a bug. I used SAX2 in JDK 1.4, the handler being: public void startElement(String namespaceURI, String localName, String qName, Attributes attributes) { System.out.println("\nElement ns = '" + namespaceURI+"' name = '" + localName+"'"); for (int i = 0; i < attributes.getLength(); i++) { System.out.println("attr ns = '" + attributes.getURI(i) + "' name = '" + attributes.getLocalName(i) + "'"); } } Running this on http://tools.search.yahoo.com/mrss/mrss-4.xml which contains lines like: yielded: Element ns = '' name = 'rss' attr ns = '' name = 'version' Element ns = '' name = 'channel' Element ns = '' name = 'title' Element ns = '' name = 'link' Element ns = '' name = 'description' Element ns = '' name = 'item' Element ns = '' name = 'title' Element ns = '' name = 'link' Element ns = 'http://docs.yahoo.com/mediaModule' name = 'content' attr ns = '' name = 'url' attr ns = '' name = 'fileSize' attr ns = '' name = 'bitrate' attr ns = '' name = 'type' attr ns = '' name = 'isDefault' attr ns = '' name = 'expression' Element ns = 'http://docs.yahoo.com/mediaModule' name = 'content' attr ns = '' name = 'url' attr ns = '' name = 'fileSize' attr ns = '' name = 'bitrate' attr ns = '' name = 'type' attr ns = '' name = 'expression' Element ns = 'http://docs.yahoo.com/mediaModule' name = 'content' attr ns = '' name = 'url' attr ns = '' name = 'fileSize' attr ns = '' name = 'bitrate' attr ns = '' name = 'type' attr ns = '' name = 'expression' Element ns = 'http://docs.yahoo.com/mediaModule' name = 'people' Element ns = 'http://docs.yahoo.com/mediaModule' name = 'category' On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:01:02 EST, Svgdeveloper@aol.com wrote: > Aren't namespaces in XML wonderful? :) Indeed they are! Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 15:17:07 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA03757 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:17:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGK4Xp1065604; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:04:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGK4XJi065603; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:04:33 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chromium.sabren.com (chromium.sabren.com [69.20.61.177]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGK4Wqr065490 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:04:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.1.103] (rdu57-27-065.nc.rr.com [66.57.27.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by chromium.sabren.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iBGK4CTo025808; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:04:12 -0500 Message-ID: <41C1EA37.1060201@intertwingly.net> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:04:07 -0500 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040803 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Svgdeveloper@aol.com CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: What is Atom for? References: <9f.54784009.2ef32824@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <9f.54784009.2ef32824@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Svgdeveloper@aol.com wrote: > > I can write http://www.tfosorcim.org/blog/ which is a URL which "represents" > my blog. OK, that got my attention. In particular, this entry: http://www.tfosorcim.org/archives/000308.html What you noted there gives you a bit of credibility in my eyes. Hopefully, you will get a chance at some point to give the Atom specification as thorough of a reading. Meanwhile, I'll suggest the following as a place to start the conversation on your original question (as reflected in the subject line): http://intertwingly.net/slides/2003/xmlconf/ Many of the specifics (example: syntax of link elements) have changed since that time, but the issues that motivated each change still remain. - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 15:20:01 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA04187 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:20:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGKCkxn071977; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:12:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGKCkE4071976; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:12:46 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.192]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGKCjhH071944 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:12:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so3739rnz for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:12:44 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=tspwKBvywS9sD6KteBq8UD/2Z9LdK4Mq1Cks+HftcWHTrelY7MtOBXDlmGaxdK+2G42S3/H8IgCxz+/jAlpyD0To5Rc7QRXdJn2H07lkL7PEjInsQj1M7yt2vrTzSaE0zSiOZHiD0LTtdoFvcXcbhxFbmexnGWNRCZwChAIWkIs= Received: by 10.38.179.30 with SMTP id b30mr250980rnf; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:12:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.52 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:12:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0412161212122e7fc8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 21:12:44 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Sam Ruby Subject: Re: Yahoo and "Media RSS" Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: <41C1EA79.2070508@intertwingly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200412161702.CDH87099@ms8.netsolmail.com> <1f2ed5cd04121610092c64752f@mail.gmail.com> <41C1EA79.2070508@intertwingly.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:05:13 -0500, Sam Ruby wrote: > Danny Ayers wrote: > > > > The attributes aren't namespace-qualified, yet aren't defined in the > > RSS 2.0 spec. > > They don't need to be defined in the RSS 2.0 spec. Semantics of > attributes on an element are defined by the element itself, not by the > containing document. Do you have a reference, please? What about: Where would you expect to the semantics of yy:another to be defined? Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 16:00:12 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA08556 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:00:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGKg2Tq092426; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:42:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGKg2kT092425; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:42:02 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGKg1FI092374 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:42:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iBGKeSCP005024; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 20:40:29 GMT In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd0412161212122e7fc8@mail.gmail.com> References: <200412161702.CDH87099@ms8.netsolmail.com> <1f2ed5cd04121610092c64752f@mail.gmail.com> <41C1EA79.2070508@intertwingly.net> <1f2ed5cd0412161212122e7fc8@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Sam Ruby , Atom WG From: Graham Subject: Re: Yahoo and "Media RSS" Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 20:40:27 +0000 To: Danny Ayers X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 16 Dec 2004, at 8:12 pm, Danny Ayers wrote: > > > Where would you expect to the semantics of yy:another to be defined? In the yy document, though possibly also in the xx document. Un-namespaced attributes are a different thing and a special case. Its best to think of them as belonging to a special "namespace:element" psuedo-namespace (ie the qname is namespace:element:attr), though officially they belong to none at all. Special case, as I said. It's all in that errata document. Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 16:07:51 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA09200 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:07:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGL0fgt006773; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:00:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGL0fvH006772; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:00:41 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.205]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGL0cLE006605 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:00:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so5737rnz for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:00:35 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=rSIWWHjItHojG57OxjmEOC1ZDLzKQpoeDg71Jx2bNVIVj/f5a2S9vqdCyRRmsF+SXq2dHmmiRBkBCxo8wnUS7lI7AEi4e0otXF3qWYujQqe7W3/7UV6lxhmItIKsVmwM8cbIXkuhFYybJAKwd5DEz87KwkfqgltgWMQtfmdVQy0= Received: by 10.38.8.45 with SMTP id 45mr271025rnh; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:00:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.52 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:00:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0412161300632b6f7a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 22:00:35 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Graham Subject: Re: Yahoo and "Media RSS" Cc: Sam Ruby , Atom WG In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200412161702.CDH87099@ms8.netsolmail.com> <1f2ed5cd04121610092c64752f@mail.gmail.com> <41C1EA79.2070508@intertwingly.net> <1f2ed5cd0412161212122e7fc8@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 20:40:27 +0000, Graham wrote: > On 16 Dec 2004, at 8:12 pm, Danny Ayers wrote: > > > > > > > Where would you expect to the semantics of yy:another to be defined? > > In the yy document, though possibly also in the xx document. Ok, that would be my reading too. > Un-namespaced attributes are a different thing and a special case. Its > best to think of them as belonging to a special "namespace:element" > psuedo-namespace (ie the qname is namespace:element:attr), though > officially they belong to none at all. I accept they're special case, but "best to think of them" doesn't help much in implementations - according to that SAX trace I posted, the Yahoo attributes are in the same namespace ('') as the core RSS 2.0 elements. The RSS 2.0 spec says: "A RSS feed may contain elements not described on this page, only if those elements are defined in a namespace." but is (as far as I can see) silent on attributes, so perhaps the Yahoo material is perfectly valid, as well as constructs like: ... Special case, as I said. It's > all in that errata document. Where? I can't find anything that covers this case. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 16:09:46 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA09450 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:09:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGL3NV4010241; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:03:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGL3NVu010240; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:03:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGL3MCj010201 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:03:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.9]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cf2mQ-0002zS-LF; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 21:03:22 +0000 Message-ID: <41C1F812.9010103@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:03:14 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Danny Ayers CC: Sam Ruby , Atom WG Subject: Re: Yahoo and "Media RSS" References: <200412161702.CDH87099@ms8.netsolmail.com> <1f2ed5cd04121610092c64752f@mail.gmail.com> <41C1EA79.2070508@intertwingly.net> <1f2ed5cd0412161212122e7fc8@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd0412161212122e7fc8@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Danny Ayers wrote: > On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:05:13 -0500, Sam Ruby wrote: > >>Danny Ayers wrote: >> >>>The attributes aren't namespace-qualified, yet aren't defined in the >>>RSS 2.0 spec. >> >>They don't need to be defined in the RSS 2.0 spec. Semantics of >>attributes on an element are defined by the element itself, not by the >>containing document. > > > Do you have a reference, please? > > What about: > > > > Where would you expect to the semantics of yy:another to be defined? Maybe explaining it in terms of the infoset[0] will help. We are interested in two properties: [namespace name] [owner element] yy:another: [namespace name]: some namespace [owner element]: xx:thing instance yetanother: [namespace name]: [owner element]: xx:thing instance No "null" namespace, just no value. It is defined only by its owner element and local name. It's not sharing a "null" namespace with unqualified element names. Robert Sayre [0] http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-infoset/#infoitem.attribute From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 16:21:34 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA10576 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:21:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGLAs06016558; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:10:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGLAsDB016557; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:10:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from imo-m23.mx.aol.com (imo-m23.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.4]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGLArOO016479 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:10:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Svgdeveloper@aol.com) Received: from Svgdeveloper@aol.com by imo-m23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id o.be.1e534a58 (3858); Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:10:37 -0500 (EST) From: Svgdeveloper@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:10:37 EST Subject: Re: Yahoo and "Media RSS" To: danny.ayers@gmail.com, atom-syntax@imc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_be.1e534a58.2ef353cd_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 670 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --part1_be.1e534a58.2ef353cd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/16/2004 9:02:20 PM GMT Standard Time, danny.ayers@gmail.com writes: > Special case, as I said. It's > >all in that errata document. > > Where? I can't find anything that covers this case. Danny, I think that NE07 in the Errata was *intended* to cover this case. But I don't think it was worded sufficiently precisely or took into consideration all possible cases. In other words, IMHO it's not all in the errata. It's a perennial problem of specifications. Specification writers attempt to find words to convey what they mean. Specification readers attempt to find a meaning to match the words used by the specification writers. When specifications are written to cover all cases and are written well the meaning intended by the specification writer and the meaning imputed to the words by the specification reader coincide. Result peace and productivity. When the specification writers convey their meaning imprecisely or omit consideration of significant scenarios the result is a permathread. Witness XML Namespaces. Andrew Watt --part1_be.1e534a58.2ef353cd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 12/16/2004 9:02:= 20 PM GMT Standard Time, danny.ayers@gmail.com writes:

Special case, as I said. It's >all in that errata document.

Where? I can't find anything that covers this case.


Danny,

I think that NE07 in the Errata was *intended* to cover this case. But I don= 't think it was worded sufficiently precisely or took into consideration all= possible cases.

In other words, IMHO it's not all in the errata.

It's a perennial problem of specifications.

Specification writers attempt to find words to convey what they mean. Specif= ication readers attempt to find a meaning to match the words used by the spe= cification writers. When specifications are written to cover all cases and a= re written well the meaning intended by the specification writer and the mea= ning imputed to the words by the specification reader coincide. Result peace= and productivity. When the specification writers convey their meaning impre= cisely or omit consideration of significant scenarios the result is a permat= hread. Witness XML Namespaces.

Andrew Watt --part1_be.1e534a58.2ef353cd_boundary-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 16:34:37 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA13959 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:34:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGLOSYX029835; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:24:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGLOSp9029834; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:24:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGLORIL029779 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:24:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so6921rnz for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:24:23 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=dGEdrxwi0C2e3DeY7d96RFVSbKLQNna7xry4grK3tdPqkLGjG/wIUQ5goRNHaAl2nMwC33wpLU0KMV41IzPLI9vuZ6HTQPHBDE0rZtSNxm4R+qWWLqpy6bBixT84jHVHKhW3JRCjRfmcVTW2P1v6BGxC/B0D0enfpDZ6lP3K54o= Received: by 10.38.206.35 with SMTP id d35mr270884rng; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:24:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.52 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:24:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd04121613242c626c05@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 22:24:23 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: mint@franklinmint.fm Subject: Re: Yahoo and "Media RSS" Cc: Sam Ruby , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <41C1F812.9010103@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200412161702.CDH87099@ms8.netsolmail.com> <1f2ed5cd04121610092c64752f@mail.gmail.com> <41C1EA79.2070508@intertwingly.net> <1f2ed5cd0412161212122e7fc8@mail.gmail.com> <41C1F812.9010103@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > No "null" namespace, just no value. It is defined only by its owner > element and local name. It's not sharing a "null" namespace with > unqualified element names. Ok, noting that this can be turned around to say an no-namespace element is defined by its local name and attributes, and does not share a namespace with other elements. Which I think leaves the position that both the following would be legal: ...and also that the code doesn't really care if the namespace has no value or is null, the namespace component of unqualified elements and attributes (in SAX in Java at least) have the same value (the empty string). Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 16:37:34 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA14734 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:37:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGLM1qq027975; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:22:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGLM1HT027974; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:22:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from imo-m24.mx.aol.com (imo-m24.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.5]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGLM0Qu027950 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:22:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Svgdeveloper@aol.com) Received: from Svgdeveloper@aol.com by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id e.8d.1c6396dc (3858); Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:21:50 -0500 (EST) From: Svgdeveloper@aol.com Message-ID: <8d.1c6396dc.2ef3566e@aol.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:21:50 EST Subject: Re: Yahoo and "Media RSS" To: mint@franklinmint.fm, atom-syntax@imc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_8d.1c6396dc.2ef3566e_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 670 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --part1_8d.1c6396dc.2ef3566e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/16/2004 9:04:23 PM GMT Standard Time, mint@franklinmint.fm writes: > Danny Ayers wrote: > >On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:05:13 -0500, Sam Ruby > wrote: > > > >>Danny Ayers wrote: > >> > >>>The attributes aren't namespace-qualified, yet aren't defined in the > >>>RSS 2.0 spec. > >> > >>They don't need to be defined in the RSS 2.0 spec. Semantics of > >>attributes on an element are defined by the element itself, not by the > >>containing document. > > > > > >Do you have a reference, please? > > > >What about: > > > > > > > >Where would you expect to the semantics of yy:another to be defined? > > Maybe explaining it in terms of the infoset[0] will help. We are > interested in two properties: > > [namespace name] > [owner element] > > > > yy:another: [namespace name]: some namespace > [owner element]: xx:thing instance > > yetanother: [namespace name]: > [owner element]: xx:thing instance > > No "null" namespace, just no value. It is defined only by its owner > element and local name. It's not sharing a "null" namespace with > unqualified element names. > > Robert Sayre > > [0] http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-infoset/#infoitem.attribute Robert, The spec writers of the Infoset Recommendation cleverly/dumbly omitted to define how a value was or was not determined for the [namespace name] property. The definition of the [namespace name] property , "The namespace name, if any, of the attribute. Otherwise, this property has no value.", is essentially without any meaning as far as determining how to decide what the value of the [namespace name] property ought to be. This tends to throw the reader back on Namespaces in XML which, as I indicated earlier, is less than totally lucid at points. Andrew Watt --part1_8d.1c6396dc.2ef3566e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 12/16/2004 9:04:= 23 PM GMT Standard Time, mint@franklinmint.fm writes:

Danny Ayers wrote:
>On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:05:13 -0500, Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net&= gt; wrote:
>
>>Danny Ayers wrote:
>>
>>>The attributes aren't namespace-qualified, yet aren't defined in= the
>>>RSS 2.0 spec.
>>
>>They don't need to be defined in the RSS 2.0 spec.  Semantics o= f
>>attributes on an element are defined by the element itself, not by t= he
>>containing document.
>
>
>Do you have a reference, please?
>
>What about:
>
><xx:thing yy:another=3D"elsewhere" />
>
>Where would you expect to the semantics of yy:another to be defined?

Maybe explaining it in terms of the infoset[0] will help. We are
interested in two properties:

[namespace name]
[owner element]

<xx:thing yy:another=3D"elsewhere" yetanother=3D"..." />

yy:another: [namespace name]: some namespace
       [owner element]: xx:thing instance

yetanother: [namespace name]:
       [owner element]: xx:thing instance

No "null" namespace, just no value. It is defined only by its owner
element and local name. It's not sharing a "null" namespace with
unqualified element names.

Robert Sayre

[0] http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-infoset/#infoitem.attribute


Robert,

The spec writers of the Infoset Recommendation cleverly/dumbly omitted to de= fine how a value was or was not determined for the [namespace name] property= .

The definition of the [namespace name] property , "The namespace name, if an= y, of the attribute. Otherwise, this property has no value.", is essentially= without any meaning as far as determining how to decide what the value of t= he [namespace name] property ought to be.

This tends to throw the reader back on Namespaces in XML which, as I indicat= ed earlier, is less than totally lucid at points.

Andrew Watt --part1_8d.1c6396dc.2ef3566e_boundary-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 16:41:39 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA15229 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:41:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGLTxs1035989; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:29:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGLTxTr035988; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:29:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chromium.sabren.com (chromium.sabren.com [69.20.61.177]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGLTww9035906 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:29:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.1.103] (rdu57-27-065.nc.rr.com [66.57.27.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by chromium.sabren.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iBGLTxXZ031030; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:29:59 -0500 Message-ID: <41C1FE52.9050303@intertwingly.net> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:29:54 -0500 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040803 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Danny Ayers CC: Atom WG Subject: Re: Yahoo and "Media RSS" References: <200412161702.CDH87099@ms8.netsolmail.com> <1f2ed5cd04121610092c64752f@mail.gmail.com> <41C1EA79.2070508@intertwingly.net> <1f2ed5cd0412161212122e7fc8@mail.gmail.com> <41C1F812.9010103@franklinmint.fm> <1f2ed5cd04121613242c626c05@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd04121613242c626c05@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Danny Ayers wrote: > Which I think leaves the position that both the following would be legal: > > The feedvalidator treats this as legal. > The feedvalidator treats this as illegal. Which has caught more than a few mispellings of isPermaLink. - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 16:57:03 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA16394 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:57:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGLk1Po052198; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:46:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGLk136052196; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:46:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGLjxLc052141 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:46:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id f1so1158163rne for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:46:01 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=R2iC+9FdDSiMtAU5GIXocinaSf7GpI2Hz5/uptcAKyE6kQryTiAhwTLv9m77tGymh1vq4schpoJBkse5SwQVutwu/LnkAzna1JUpyQ0hyxS7XKz21j3eKg7A5FkIndue2G2TDHx7qJO//pmnh0Ro6W+GU4Y/8uwl5BmMGWiPy/8= Received: by 10.38.10.73 with SMTP id 73mr1774157rnj; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:46:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.72.17 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:46:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2bcdc7c404121613464c0709b9@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:46:00 -0800 From: James Snell Reply-To: James Snell To: atom-syntax@imc.org, atom-protocol@imc.org Subject: Atom Notification Protocol Published Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (cross posted to both the Syntax and Protocol mailing lists) I have published the first draft of the Atom Notification Protocol. It is available at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-notification-00.txt I would like to discuss the possibility of this work being picked up by the working group. It may even be feasible to incorporate this into the main body of the Atom Protocol spec. In the meantime, however, please take a look and review the draft and please comment on the protocol mailing list. -- - James Snell http://www.snellspcae.com/blog jasnell@gmail.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 17:15:47 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA18780 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 17:15:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGM7E6u073155; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:07:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGM7DHo073154; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:07:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from imo-m14.mx.aol.com (imo-m14.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.204]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGM78NL072967 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:07:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Svgdeveloper@aol.com) Received: from Svgdeveloper@aol.com by imo-m14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id n.148.3a2de0c6 (3858); Thu, 16 Dec 2004 17:06:58 -0500 (EST) From: Svgdeveloper@aol.com Message-ID: <148.3a2de0c6.2ef36102@aol.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 17:06:58 EST Subject: Re: What is Atom for? To: rubys@intertwingly.net, atom-syntax@imc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_148.3a2de0c6.2ef36102_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 670 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --part1_148.3a2de0c6.2ef36102_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/16/2004 8:04:52 PM GMT Standard Time, rubys@intertwingly.net writes: > Svgdeveloper@aol.com wrote: > > > >I can write http://www.tfosorcim.org/blog/ which is a URL which > "represents" > >my blog. > > OK, that got my attention. In particular, this entry: > > http://www.tfosorcim.org/archives/000308.html > > What you noted there gives you a bit of credibility in my eyes. > Hopefully, you will get a chance at some point to give the Atom > specification as thorough of a reading. Sam, Writing a chapter about a spec is a great way to find out what is clear and what's not. That same intended thoroughness of reading was what stimulated the original question about Atom in this thread. :) Just as in RSS 2.0 some things didn't tie up neatly so the same phenomenon is in evidence in the Atom Charter and draft specification. ... Maybe you didn't want to hear that, though. :) I have already mentioned some of the lack of clarity in the Charter. Let me also make brief comments on the Introduction of the October draft. It states: "Atom is an XML-based document format intended to allow lists of related information, known as "feeds", to be synchronised between publishers and consumers." That isn't quite right. The XML-based document format is only one part of "Atom", at least that's what the Charter indicates. So maybe start the quote as, "The XML-based document format defined in this document is one part of the [x-part?] Atom specification. .... " The next sentence currently reads: "Feeds are composed of a number of items, known as "entries", each with an extensible set of attached metadata." That isn't quite right, either. It doesn't mention feed metadata. I would suggest that "A feed is composed of metadata about the feed, together with a number of items, known as "entries", each of which may contain or reference content and have its own set of metadata" might be better. My most substantive concern about the Atom Syndication Format draft document is the intention to muddy the concepts of the information set and the serialized document. That seems to me to be a recipe for lack of clarity in multiple places. Yes, it will be harder to draft the document to clearly distinguish the description of the infoset (is that the "conceptual model"?? of the Charter) from the serialised document. But it would reduce the likelihood of embedded ambiguity in the Atom specification documents, in my opinion. Another significant concern is the lack of clear specification, as far as I can see, of the "conceptual model", if by that we mean the kind of thing that was labelled as "Data Model" in the slide set to which you pointed me. The archive aspect of Atom seems to me to be seriously underspecified at present. Having not had time to closely follow discussions in recent weeks I may have missed something that adds to what I am aware of in that regard. But it's not really entirely fair to probe a relatively early draft in that way. > > Meanwhile, I'll suggest the following as a place to start the > conversation on your original question (as reflected in the subject line): > > http://intertwingly.net/slides/2003/xmlconf/ > > Many of the specifics (example: syntax of link elements) have changed > since that time, but the issues that motivated each change still remain. You found, by attempting to implement them, that the existing specs contain ambiguities. I would concur with that finding in the context of trying to write about them to interpret their meaning for a reader. At times when writing I was very consciously "interpreting". In many practical situations (for my purpose) it didn't matter too much since many aggregators are permissive. With respect to archiving, one serious question I have relates to the permanency/uniqueness of URIs. Having had a domain effectively hijacked some time back (my fault for not watching the renewal date) a URI (a URL, to be specific) that was "mine" then led to different content from a different person. A URI plus timestamp seems to me to be more likely to be unique and worth using a basis for archiving. I noticed one interesting point in your Summary slide: "content is a rich source of metadata". I wonder if the following perspective is not more true: "data and metadata are often intermixed". If, as the slide set suggests, your aim for Atom is to have a more unambiguously specified set of specification documents than for any previous information feed specification, then my opinion is that there is quite a way to go. I say that having worked word by word through RSS 0.91, 0.92, 1.0 and 2.0 in the very recent past. Atom may have the potential to be clearer but, IMHO, it needs considerable further work to achieve the clarity that I think is your hope for it. Andrew Watt --part1_148.3a2de0c6.2ef36102_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 12/16/2004 8:04:= 52 PM GMT Standard Time, rubys@intertwingly.net writes:

Svgdeveloper@aol.com wrote:
>
>I can write http://www.tfosorcim.org/blog/ which is a URL which "represe= nts"
>my blog.

OK, that got my attention.  In particular, this entry:

http://www.tfosorcim.org/archives/000308.html

What you noted there gives you a bit of credibility in my eyes.
Hopefully, you will get a chance at some point to give the Atom
specification as thorough of a reading.


Sam,

Writing a chapter about a spec is a great way to find out what is clear and=20= what's not.

That same intended thoroughness of reading was what stimulated the original=20= question about Atom in this thread. :)

Just as in RSS 2.0 some things didn't tie up neatly so the same phenomenon i= s in evidence in the Atom Charter and draft specification. ... Maybe you did= n't want to hear that, though. :)

I have already mentioned some of the lack of clarity in the Charter. Let me=20= also make brief comments on the Introduction of the October draft.

It states:
"Atom is an XML-based document format intended to allow lists of related inf= ormation, known as "feeds", to be synchronised between publishers and consum= ers."

That isn't quite right. The XML-based document format is only one part of "A= tom", at least that's what the Charter indicates. So maybe start the quote a= s, "The XML-based document format defined in this document is one part of th= e [x-part?] Atom specification. .... "

The next sentence currently reads:
"Feeds are composed of a number of items, known as "entries", each with an e= xtensible set of attached metadata."

That isn't quite right, either. It doesn't mention feed metadata. I would su= ggest that "A feed is composed of metadata about the feed, together with a n= umber of items, known as "entries", each of which may contain or reference c= ontent and have its own set of metadata" might be better.

My most substantive concern about the Atom Syndication Format draft document= is the intention to muddy the concepts of the information set and the seria= lized document. That seems to me to be a recipe for lack of clarity in multi= ple places. Yes, it will be harder to draft the document to clearly distingu= ish the description of the infoset (is that the "conceptual model"?? of the=20= Charter) from the serialised document. But it would reduce the likelihood of= embedded ambiguity in the Atom specification documents, in my opinion.

Another significant concern is the lack of clear specification, as far as I=20= can see, of the "conceptual model", if by that we mean the kind of thing tha= t was labelled as "Data Model" in the slide set to which you pointed me.

The archive aspect of Atom seems to me to be seriously underspecified at pre= sent. Having not had time to closely follow discussions in recent weeks I ma= y have missed something that adds to what I am aware of in that regard.

But it's not really entirely fair to probe a relatively early draft in that=20= way.


Meanwhile, I'll suggest the following as a place to start the
conversation on your original question (as reflected in the subject line):
http://intertwingly.net/slides/2003/xmlconf/

Many of the specifics (example: syntax of link elements) have changed
since that time, but the issues that motivated each change still remain.

You found, by attempting to implement them, that the existing specs contain=20= ambiguities. I would concur with that finding in the context of trying to wr= ite about them to interpret their meaning for a reader. At times when writin= g I was very consciously "interpreting". In many practical situations (for m= y purpose) it didn't matter too much since many aggregators are permissive.<= BR>
With respect to archiving, one serious question I have relates to the perman= ency/uniqueness of URIs. Having had a domain effectively hijacked some time=20= back (my fault for not watching the renewal date) a URI (a URL, to be specif= ic) that was "mine" then led to different content from a different person. A= URI plus timestamp seems to me to be more likely to be unique and worth usi= ng a basis for archiving.

I noticed one interesting point in your Summary slide: "content is a rich so= urce of metadata". I wonder if the following perspective is not more true: "= data and metadata are often intermixed".

If, as the slide set suggests, your aim for Atom is to have a more unambiguo= usly specified set of specification documents than for any previous informat= ion feed specification, then my opinion is that there is quite a way to go.=20= I say that having worked word by word through RSS 0.91, 0.92, 1.0 and 2.0 in= the very recent past. Atom may have the potential to be clearer but, IMHO,=20= it needs considerable further work to achieve the clarity that I think is yo= ur hope for it.

Andrew Watt --part1_148.3a2de0c6.2ef36102_boundary-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 17:52:50 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA22873 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 17:52:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGMhbQn011162; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:43:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGMhbah011159; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:43:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.200]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGMhaB3011088 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:43:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so9891rnz for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:43:37 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=cf3XqR+SUxoUPHXvKVo8+dG9TXr5ZsaINdVhP+Y6JYW3+emRxde6ZDvwqO2kRiTsWTz89YHxYbrr1mg3jR1HC7uAR2/QHtqv23wC+iOHMWAJ9YhpP809KVpvjkSTnw6MHEHz1yYngbPyGVL/CFKiPmxVd0TvR7ejPLY/QGTJC7Y= Received: by 10.38.8.45 with SMTP id 45mr301915rnh; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:43:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.52 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:43:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0412161443552ac7a4@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 23:43:37 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Sam Ruby Subject: Re: Yahoo and "Media RSS" Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: <41C1FE52.9050303@intertwingly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200412161702.CDH87099@ms8.netsolmail.com> <1f2ed5cd04121610092c64752f@mail.gmail.com> <41C1EA79.2070508@intertwingly.net> <1f2ed5cd0412161212122e7fc8@mail.gmail.com> <41C1F812.9010103@franklinmint.fm> <1f2ed5cd04121613242c626c05@mail.gmail.com> <41C1FE52.9050303@intertwingly.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:29:54 -0500, Sam Ruby wrote: > Danny Ayers wrote: > > > Which I think leaves the position that both the following would be legal: > > > > > > The feedvalidator treats this as legal. > > > > > The feedvalidator treats this as illegal. Which has caught more than a > few mispellings of isPermaLink. You can guess what's coming...how does/should the feedvalidator treat: I can't really see where any special (semantic) relationship should be assumed for the element/attributes structure compared to the element/children structure based on the infoset. Personally I would lean towards having the feedvalidator at least warn on all those examples above to minimise confusion. Because it could easily get worse : ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... Which are valid? Which of the attributes share the same semantics? Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 18:33:15 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA27978 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 18:33:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGNNvxV060427; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:23:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGNNulH060424; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:23:56 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com (ms-smtp-01-lbl.southeast.rr.com [24.25.9.100]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGNNtXk060408 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:23:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.1.103] (rdu57-27-065.nc.rr.com [66.57.27.65]) by ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id iBGNNuKj002535; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 18:23:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <41C21909.8020004@intertwingly.net> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 18:23:53 -0500 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040803 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Danny Ayers CC: Atom WG Subject: Re: Yahoo and "Media RSS" References: <200412161702.CDH87099@ms8.netsolmail.com> <1f2ed5cd04121610092c64752f@mail.gmail.com> <41C1EA79.2070508@intertwingly.net> <1f2ed5cd0412161212122e7fc8@mail.gmail.com> <41C1F812.9010103@franklinmint.fm> <1f2ed5cd04121613242c626c05@mail.gmail.com> <41C1FE52.9050303@intertwingly.net> <1f2ed5cd0412161443552ac7a4@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd0412161443552ac7a4@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Danny Ayers wrote: > On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:29:54 -0500, Sam Ruby wrote: > >>Danny Ayers wrote: >> >>>Which I think leaves the position that both the following would be legal: >>> >>> >> >>The feedvalidator treats this as legal. >> >>> >> >>The feedvalidator treats this as illegal. Which has caught more than a >>few mispellings of isPermaLink. > > You can guess what's coming...how does/should the feedvalidator treat: > > If the element is in an unrecognized namespace, then the whole element is treated as valid. If the element is in a recognized namespace, then the validator validates all attributes which are either in no namespace or in a recognized namespace. All others are treated as valid. > I can't really see where any special (semantic) relationship should be > assumed for the element/attributes structure compared to the > element/children structure based on the infoset. Personally I would > lean towards having the feedvalidator at least warn on all those > examples above to minimise confusion. Because it could easily get > worse : > > ... known/valid. > ... unknown/valid. > ... unknown/valid. > ... unknown/valid. > ... unknown/valid. > ... known/valid > ... known/invalid > ... unknown/valid > Which are valid? Which of the attributes share the same semantics? Inferring that attributes which are in an explicit namespace are the same might be reasonable. But inferring that attributes which are not in a namespace are the same because they happen to be spelled the same may produce false positives. - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 18:38:20 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA28517 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 18:38:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGNVFR9071465; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:31:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBGNVEHa071459; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:31:14 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.195]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBGNVC6Z071213 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:31:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so11456rnz for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:31:12 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=jodtemYaHik447vhKnR4q+tYfNaLT9zipH4mBaA1MoMvHaq5eX/bhW5ph2K7QD7bYi/r3qc0d6xlSI96JVLoNmkNcfmw4ics0G7FHVVxLsmoYHJUYvbNd26p3hm2b46t9yn3U8/6lkmCYjt2a45cNAm3Pot3YrEyP4eiNSRFrg0= Received: by 10.38.206.35 with SMTP id d35mr309582rng; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:31:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.52 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:31:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd041216153168a249fd@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 00:31:12 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Sam Ruby Subject: Re: Yahoo and "Media RSS" Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: <41C21909.8020004@intertwingly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200412161702.CDH87099@ms8.netsolmail.com> <1f2ed5cd04121610092c64752f@mail.gmail.com> <41C1EA79.2070508@intertwingly.net> <1f2ed5cd0412161212122e7fc8@mail.gmail.com> <41C1F812.9010103@franklinmint.fm> <1f2ed5cd04121613242c626c05@mail.gmail.com> <41C1FE52.9050303@intertwingly.net> <1f2ed5cd0412161443552ac7a4@mail.gmail.com> <41C21909.8020004@intertwingly.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 18:23:53 -0500, Sam Ruby wrote: > Inferring that attributes which are in an explicit namespace are the > same might be reasonable. But inferring that attributes which are not > in a namespace are the same because they happen to be spelled the same > may produce false positives. I'm a little tired right now so might be missing something obvious, but if you accept this latter point, then why shouldn't you also accept the same interpretation for element names - i.e. and may not actually be the same..? Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 16 20:02:21 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA04862 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 20:02:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBH0oVd5063890; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:50:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBH0oVCg063889; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:50:31 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail07.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail07.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iBH0oUdk063708 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:50:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 11838 messnum 2825242 invoked from network[83.70.166.136/83-70-166-136.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 17 Dec 2004 00:50:31 -0000 Received: from 83-70-166-136.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?192.168.123.143?) (83.70.166.136) by mail07.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 11838) with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 00:50:31 -0000 Message-ID: <41C22D6F.8090602@dehora.net> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 00:50:55 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Danny Ayers CC: Sam Ruby , Atom WG Subject: Re: Yahoo and "Media RSS" References: <200412161702.CDH87099@ms8.netsolmail.com> <1f2ed5cd04121610092c64752f@mail.gmail.com> <41C1EA79.2070508@intertwingly.net> <1f2ed5cd0412161212122e7fc8@mail.gmail.com> <41C1F812.9010103@franklinmint.fm> <1f2ed5cd04121613242c626c05@mail.gmail.com> <41C1FE52.9050303@intertwingly.net> <1f2ed5cd0412161443552ac7a4@mail.gmail.com> <41C21909.8020004@intertwingly.net> <1f2ed5cd041216153168a249fd@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd041216153168a249fd@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Danny Ayers wrote: > On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 18:23:53 -0500, Sam Ruby wrote: > > >>Inferring that attributes which are in an explicit namespace are the >>same might be reasonable. But inferring that attributes which are not >>in a namespace are the same because they happen to be spelled the same >>may produce false positives. > > I'm a little tired right now so might be missing something obvious, > but if you accept this latter point, then why shouldn't you also > accept the same interpretation for element names - i.e. > > > and > > > may not actually be the same..? Because attributes and elements are not treated the same way by XML Namespaces, the same interpretation need not apply. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Dec 17 12:22:58 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA12132 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 12:22:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBHH64VG055076; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:06:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBHH64t2055075; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:06:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.afp.com (smtp3.afp.com [158.50.208.110]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBHH5wAe054880 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:06:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from laurent.lemeur@afp.com) Received: by smtp3.afp.com (Sendmail, from userid 1007) id CC802465DA; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 18:05:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from alox.afp.com (unknown [158.50.165.141])by smtp3.afp.com (Sendmail) with ESMTPid 3982846482; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 18:05:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from sdtc05 ([158.50.180.103])by alox.afp.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBHH5Kpb027096;Fri, 17 Dec 2004 18:05:20 +0100 (MET) From: "Laurent Le Meur" To: "'Ben Lund'" , Subject: RE : "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 18:05:19 +0100 Message-ID: <005401c4e45a$968a1d80$67b4329e@afp.local> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <41C1C0DC.9090501@nature.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: > >1) Aggregating information where two different trusted sources both >publish data about the same item. For example, a feed from a science >publisher that gave the bibliographic metadata, and a feed from a >citation indexer gave 'cited by' information. How does the intermediary >concatenate the two blobs of XML? Remember, I'm talking about >situations where the intermediary doesn't understand the namespace being >used, so from the point of view of the aggregator, the two blobs look >like this: > > > http://www.example.com/item1 > Blah blah > ... > gfdgfdgfd > > gfdgfd > 65454343 > > > >and > > > http://www.example.com/item1 > Blah blah > ... > gfdgfd > bvcbvvcbvc > ytytryrt > 6768875 > > >There's no easy way of working out how to combine this information. >However, with RDF, you can just concatenate the triples. > You must bear in mind that the atom:id element "conveys a permanent, globally unique identifier for the entry". It does identify the set of statements, and is not (like the RSS item_uri) the common subject for that set. So if two aggregated entries have the same atom:id, they must be coming from a unique provider and represent the same information (or revision of the same information). > >> I also don't understand why including rdf:RDF in atom:entry is >> insufficient. You'd have to consume it with an RDF parser and it would >> come in a container that isn't RDF itself, but I don't see a problem. > >My view is that the RDF model buys you everything you need at the moment >for an extensibility model -- that's why we use RSS 1.0 currently. So, >I don't particularly have a problem with the approach of putting rdf:RDF >in an atom:entry. But that does beg the question of why Atom needs two >separate data models. Could it be because RDF is good for the representation of metadata (about some remote content or resource), but Atom is also there to *embed* content? Laurent Le Meur AFP -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- This e-mail, and any file transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error, please contact the sender and delete the email from your system. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this email. For more information on Agence France-Presse, please visit our web site at http://www.afp.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Dec 17 16:45:40 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA14548 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:45:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBHLLbG4060631; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 13:21:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBHLLbLF060630; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 13:21:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBHLLVbj060619 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 13:21:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgog.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.67.16] helo=[192.168.0.9]) by web02.designerslab.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CfPXT-0001uX-59; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 21:21:27 +0000 Message-ID: <41C34DD0.2090909@franklinmint.fm> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:21:20 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ben Lund CC: James Robertson , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" References: <125F7834E11A5741A7D79412EE3504F90F26CD84@UK1APPS2.nature.com> <1f2ed5cd041215122274e5c6@mail.gmail.com> <41C0A372.3010708@franklinmint.fm> <1f2ed5cd04121515067e3d5ad5@mail.gmail.com> <41C0D70F.9010505@dehora.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20041216072139.026b3150@www.gosmalltalk.com> <41C181D1.3000800@nature.com> <41C19044.3070805@franklinmint.fm> <41C1C0DC.9090501@nature.com> In-Reply-To: <41C1C0DC.9090501@nature.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ben Lund wrote: > > My view is that the RDF model buys you everything you need at the moment > for an extensibility model -- that's why we use RSS 1.0 currently. Sure, but not many people use RSS1 correctly. I just saw this: java programming security staticanalysis More interesting in a plain old text search engine. > So, > I don't particularly have a problem with the approach of putting rdf:RDF > in an atom:entry. But that does beg the question of why Atom needs two > separate data models. > RSS1 has two separate data models as well--the RSS1 spec amounts to an XML schema. Putting rdf:RDF in an Atom document is going to get you cleaner data. "The use of the enclosing tag implies a choice and a contract... The contract is that you're adhering to this choice into the future, and to the constraints this places on the syndication format, and the underlying model of the data."[0] It would be wishful thinking to say a large percentage of RSS1 feeds are following that contract. Robert Sayre [0] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg00214.html "given that the RSS 1.0 spec utilizes RDF, I believe that the tools and format itself should be RDF aware _from the start_. A solid foundation is key to building anything that is going to last. This means that it is the *data model* that is important, not the physical syntax of "start with channel, then several items, etc". In fact, I believe the spec itself should be an RDF Schema depicting the data model, with simple examples of how to express it in XML. Anything less results in confusion and a mish-mash of incompatible tools, where some are simple XML processors and some are full RDF-aware processors. I see this as the largest hurdle for RSS as RDF, given the comparative lack of RDF tools to XML tools. If we are not willing to commit to this in the spec and tools, then we may as well go back to a plain XML format. In other words, put up or shut up. " --Dan Libby http://groups.yahoo.com/group/syndication/message/586 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Dec 17 16:57:29 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA16751 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:57:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBHLiqMW063256; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 13:44:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBHLiqr3063255; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 13:44:52 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from main.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBHLikm2063192 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 13:44:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ga-atom-syntax@gmane.org) Received: from list by main.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1CfPty-0005gR-00 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 22:44:42 +0100 Received: from corp-fw-main.jabber.com ([207.182.164.14]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 22:44:42 +0100 Received: from stpeter by corp-fw-main.jabber.com with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 22:44:42 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Peter Saint-Andre Subject: Re: Atom Notification Protocol Published Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:44:38 -0700 Organization: Jabber Software Foundation Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <2bcdc7c404121613464c0709b9@mail.gmail.com> X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: corp-fw-main.jabber.com User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.4 (PPC Mac OS X) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In article <2bcdc7c404121613464c0709b9@mail.gmail.com>, James Snell wrote: > (cross posted to both the Syntax and Protocol mailing lists) > > I have published the first draft of the Atom Notification Protocol. > It is available at > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-notification-00.txt > > I would like to discuss the possibility of this work being picked up > by the working group. It may even be feasible to incorporate this into > the main body of the Atom Protocol spec. In the meantime, however, > please take a look and review the draft and please comment on the > protocol mailing list. It's not clear to me from the I-D as written exactly what functionality happens as a result of the protocol you've defined. The I-D states: A notification request containing an Atom Entry is intended to notify the receiving endpoint that a specific entry has been created or updated. What is "the receiving endpoint"? Does the publisher do a POST to a special HTTP URI for every receiving endpoint? It would be interesting to contrast your approach with the approach some other folks (me included) have defined using XMPP pubsub: http://ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-saintandre-atompub-notify-01.txt Peter From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Dec 17 18:28:41 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA04142 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 18:28:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBHNHhLH083889; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 15:17:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBHNHhL5083888; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 15:17:43 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr5.netsolmail.com (omr5.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.142]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBHNHgwW083858 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 15:17:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr5.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iBHNHdqr014559; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 18:17:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id CEE23736 (AUTH bob@wyman.us); Fri, 17 Dec 2004 18:17:38 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200412172317.CEE23736@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Ben Lund'" , Cc: "'James Robertson'" , Subject: RE: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 18:17:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-Index: AcTjqAkbTum8TuVMRlq7Njv1MtYlOQA5junA In-Reply-To: <41C1C0DC.9090501@nature.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ben Lund wrote: > However, with RDF, you can just concatenate the triples. Would that really be the right thing to do? In the example you gave, the two different sets of triples were generated by different authors and thus had differing contexts, trust metrics, authorship, etc. associated with them. My gut feeling tells me that "source" information would need to be preserved in most practical cases. While I see that in theory, simply concatenating the triples makes sense -- I'm not sure if it would make sense in the real world. Authorship/Attribution is important. bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Dec 17 18:29:46 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA04447 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 18:29:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBHNHZ9f083812; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 15:17:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBHNHZnN083811; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 15:17:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.199]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBHNHYfK083758 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 15:17:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id f1so193389rne for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 15:17:34 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=diQTrfl9O8/N1Mu5vcdb9EbqlER23bObxRsZkXouvSce5IKSWEemIuqcqeJenSNu3vWAEtZnzA6Q/KxBs6GHnonJ9PxbuJs2fFxLgPrtpBQesiBQikapXhYIA5wMarTyRrumO0MW2wMyesD8rriXOMlOg/uJBbJfqhvyj16tHD8= Received: by 10.38.151.73 with SMTP id y73mr551616rnd; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 15:17:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.72.17 with HTTP; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 15:17:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2bcdc7c404121715174f758f17@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 15:17:34 -0800 From: James Snell Reply-To: James Snell To: Peter Saint-Andre Subject: Re: Atom Notification Protocol Published Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <2bcdc7c404121613464c0709b9@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:44:38 -0700, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > > In article <2bcdc7c404121613464c0709b9@mail.gmail.com>, > James Snell wrote: > > > (cross posted to both the Syntax and Protocol mailing lists) > > > > I have published the first draft of the Atom Notification Protocol. > > It is available at > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-notification-00.txt > > > > I would like to discuss the possibility of this work being picked up > > by the working group. It may even be feasible to incorporate this into > > the main body of the Atom Protocol spec. In the meantime, however, > > please take a look and review the draft and please comment on the > > protocol mailing list. > > It's not clear to me from the I-D as written exactly what functionality > happens as a result of the protocol you've defined. The I-D states: > If you mean what I think you mean with "what functionality happens as a result of the protocol" then the functionality is implementation specific. In other words, the only semantic for this protocol is that one party wishes to notify another party that either an Entry or a Feed has been updated. What happens as a result of that notification is entirely up to what the receiver of the notification is set up to do. > A notification request containing an Atom Entry is intended to > notify the receiving endpoint that a specific entry has been > created or updated. > > What is "the receiving endpoint"? Does the publisher do a POST to a > special HTTP URI for every receiving endpoint? > Yes, the "receiving endpoint" is an HTTP URL to which a POST operation is performed, passing in a Feed or Entry element as the entity. > It would be interesting to contrast your approach with the approach some > other folks (me included) have defined using XMPP pubsub: > > http://ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-saintandre-atompub-notify-01.txt > The XMPP approach defined looks good. What I was wanting to achieve with this was an approach that could be a fairly simple and natural drop in replacement for the existing Trackback and Ping mechanisms. Each of those use basic HTTP POST operations without the need for XMPP support. For XMPP-enabled environments, draft-saintandre-atompub-notify-01 is Goodness. Not every environment is going to be XMPP-enabled. Just about everyone is HTTP POST enabled. > Peter > > -- - James Snell http://www.snellspace.com jasnell@gmail.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Dec 17 19:14:31 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA08953 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 19:14:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBI0486h088149; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:04:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBI048d6088148; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:04:08 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.204]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBI048tT088122 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:04:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so51707rnz for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:04:08 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=f9vGYInyH4nYfuIKIkwRJVv4T57xXRRofWjLtXiZa2uR58Rfjv/czPPSV2ZIFY5i+ile/dsx7kK2Wjs1Q4mKohJpxDD7iPCSGENOTPLO7453DSXPpkP2/Zc5PLAGRFk/3F1jaHlMJMOMcWBKZxybeIwndHAqvgZKiZG/fi77DvA= Received: by 10.38.179.30 with SMTP id b30mr681273rnf; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:04:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.52 with HTTP; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:04:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd041217160464b4b799@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 01:04:08 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: bob@wyman.us Subject: Re: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" Cc: Ben Lund , mint@franklinmint.fm, James Robertson , atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200412172317.CEE23736@ms8.netsolmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <41C1C0DC.9090501@nature.com> <200412172317.CEE23736@ms8.netsolmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 18:17:37 -0500, Bob Wyman wrote: > > Ben Lund wrote: > > However, with RDF, you can just concatenate the triples. > Would that really be the right thing to do? Heh, thought that point might bite back...depends... In the example you gave, > the two different sets of triples were generated by different authors and > thus had differing contexts, trust metrics, authorship, etc. associated with > them. My gut feeling tells me that "source" information would need to be > preserved in most practical cases. While I see that in theory, simply > concatenating the triples makes sense -- I'm not sure if it would make sense > in the real world. Authorship/Attribution is important. True, but it's not a problem. Provenance can be done where needed using reification (you add a pile more triples) or by stepping outside the current RDF logic and using things like named graphs. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Dec 18 00:01:57 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA02998 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 00:01:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBI4l7Rc043870; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 20:47:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBI4l7bv043869; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 20:47:07 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr3.netsolmail.com (omr3.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.164]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBI4l6PK043853 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 20:47:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr3.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iBI4kwmm024578; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 23:46:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from boblaptop (68-174-167-137.nyc.rr.com [68.174.167.137]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id CEF21906; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 23:46:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200412180446.CEF21906@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Danny Ayers'" , Cc: "'Ben Lund'" , , "'James Robertson'" , Subject: RE: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 23:46:53 -0500 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Thread-Index: AcTklSG13gWpk/FHTFeYl4G5CRhdAQAJzItA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd041217160464b4b799@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Danny Ayers wrote: > Provenance can be done where needed using reification (you add a > pile more triples) or by stepping outside the current RDF logic and > using things like named graphs. Please forgive me for not understanding RDF well enough to understand your comment as well as I would like to. Could you help me out here by providing an example of how two sets of triples could be concatenated while still preserving provenance? bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Dec 18 02:43:37 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA27817 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 02:43:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBI7YQc3039578; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 23:34:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBI7YQpS039577; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 23:34:26 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr3.netsolmail.com (omr3.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.164]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBI7YP4j039562 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 23:34:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr3.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iBI7YJmq008040; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 02:34:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from boblaptop (68-174-167-137.nyc.rr.com [68.174.167.137]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id CEF62940; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 02:34:18 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200412180734.CEF62940@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'James Snell'" , "'Peter Saint-Andre'" Cc: Subject: RE: Atom Notification Protocol Published Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 02:34:18 -0500 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Thread-Index: AcTkmmL8ApCmYmtATfKzJKc3h9/TfwAOLCjQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <2bcdc7c404121715174f758f17@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Snell wrote: > For XMPP-enabled environments, draft-saintandre-atompub-notify-01 > is Goodness. Not every environment is going to be XMPP-enabled. > Just about everyone is HTTP POST enabled. I think that focusing on the differences between XMPP and HTTP POST is not really useful in this discussion. Each transport protocol has advantages in one or another environment. What's interesting is not the transport protocol but rather the payload that is transported! (i.e. The slogan "It's about the Entries, Stupid!" applies in this case.) I think the important point is that there probably isn't a great deal of justification for having different payload formats for these protocols. If we strip away the XMPP and HTTP "transport" wrappers, overhead, etc. I don't see any reason why it would be useful to have different messages. bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Dec 18 02:50:40 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA28140 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 02:50:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBI7gc0O053401; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 23:42:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBI7gcpr053396; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 23:42:38 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr3.netsolmail.com (omr3.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.164]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBI7gbxp053353; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 23:42:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr3.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iBI7gZmq010219; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 02:42:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from boblaptop (68-174-167-137.nyc.rr.com [68.174.167.137]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id CEF65051; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 02:42:34 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200412180742.CEF65051@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'James Snell'" , , Subject: RE: Atom Notification Protocol Published Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 02:42:34 -0500 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Thread-Index: AcTjvYad8qmV/1YDS1WmgDv0SHk71wBFwHyw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <2bcdc7c404121613464c0709b9@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would strongly recommend that it be required that an atom:entry that is published with no enclosing atom:feed MUST contain an atom:head element. If this is not the case, the published atom:entries will be essentially anonymous and thus largely useless. Virtually every Atom processor in existence requires elements of atom:head when handling entries. I can imagine very few applications (other than closed ones) that could make use of atom:entries that do not contain atom:head elements and are not themselves enclosed in atom:feeds. bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Dec 18 05:57:15 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA08937 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 05:57:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBIAidXn091187; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 02:44:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBIAid1E091186; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 02:44:39 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBIAiTQO091021 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 02:44:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 1so70026rny for ; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 02:44:30 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=plHKhFWAWe6JqGUxL2ttTIs0udWUM1JsVDzo4P/c6cr9wfzIxtf2OGaglUzwQsuuc9hnlIpdIZXPQulfTtPzzAJlHouUSUbNl1JH+62awXbUKSs3WrJ5jocQ04Wy3eK7DcXUAWfd4qsgGiYzn3CXFVZyQvkBk18IhbRI2ahEPlk= Received: by 10.38.8.8 with SMTP id 8mr96123rnh; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 02:44:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.52 with HTTP; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 02:44:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd041218024430d508cc@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 11:44:29 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: bob@wyman.us Subject: Re: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" Cc: Ben Lund , mint@franklinmint.fm, James Robertson , atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200412180446.CEF21906@ms8.netsolmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <1f2ed5cd041217160464b4b799@mail.gmail.com> <200412180446.CEF21906@ms8.netsolmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 23:46:53 -0500, Bob Wyman wrote: Could you help me out > here by providing an example of how two sets of triples could be > concatenated while still preserving provenance? Please allow me me lead up to an example slowly... I've not really spent any time around provenance, but three approaches spring to mind, Well, actually the first approach is ad hoc-ness on the part of the RDF library developer - there are quite a few different specific tricks, e.g. Redland I believe associates every statement with a "context" so the context can provide any provenance info. These sort of things are fine internal within a system but aren't too helpful if you want to share that info and/or use it as part of the RDF (RDFS/OWL) inferencing. Long-term (i.e. it's unlikely to be in a W3C spec in the near future) there's Named Graphs as a very promising extension of RDF, for which the theory has been worked out and is nice & intuitive. Simple idea - you can give any set of statements a URI. (This is kind of what a lot of people seem to do anyway - e.g. I can consider my RSS feed as a single, isolated graph with the URI of the feed. But the Named Graph formalism makes it possible to mix 'em all up and still be able to reason properly). To quote from [1]: "Named Graphs allow publishers to communicate assertional intent, and to sign their graphs; information consumers can evaluate specific graphs using task-specific trust policies, and act on information from those Named Graphs that they accept." A third approach to provenance is already supported by RDF, reification. I still get very confused over this, Shelley Powers called it "The Big Ugly". It's a bit like quotation but /different/ - there is explanation in the Primer [2]. I've not used it myself, but a presentation I saw last week convinced me the approach can work - Rich Boakes on his RDFX [3] project, uses reification expressly for the purpose of provenance, it's clear in his slides [4]. Basic idea is that say for a triple: mydata:item123 dc:subject "fishing" . you can reify it to add the triples: mydata:triple321 rdf:type rdf:Statement . mydata:triple321 rdf:subject mydata:item123 . mydata:triple321 rdf:predicate dc:subject . mydata:triple321 rdf:object "fishing" . now you can say things about the triple, e.g. mydata:triple321 dc:source http://example.org/feed So whenever a statement is added to your knowledgebase, another 5+ are thrown in too. I asked Rich the obvious question - yes, it is a big overhead in terms of the amount of data that needs to be stored, but (if I remember correctly) wasn't a great cost in terms of computational complexity or difficult code. He just saw the extra bulk as a necessary cost. Cheers, Danny. [1] http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/2004/HPL-2004-57.html [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-primer/#reification [3] http://www.rdfx.org/ [4] http://www.rdfx.org/docs/presentation/SWAP_Boakes_AFrameworkForUnifiedInformationBrowsing.ppt -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Dec 18 07:53:53 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA14287 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 07:53:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBICdQ2w065824; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 04:39:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBICdQci065823; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 04:39:26 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail13.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail13.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.29]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id iBICdPwd065751 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 04:39:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 26382 messnum 5125600 invoked from network[83.70.166.136/83-70-166-136.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 18 Dec 2004 12:39:19 -0000 Received: from 83-70-166-136.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?192.168.123.143?) (83.70.166.136) by mail13.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 26382) with SMTP; 18 Dec 2004 12:39:19 -0000 Message-ID: <41C4250F.9060603@dehora.net> Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 12:39:43 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Danny Ayers CC: bob@wyman.us, Ben Lund , mint@franklinmint.fm, James Robertson , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" References: <1f2ed5cd041217160464b4b799@mail.gmail.com> <200412180446.CEF21906@ms8.netsolmail.com> <1f2ed5cd041218024430d508cc@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd041218024430d508cc@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Danny Ayers wrote: > Redland I believe associates every > statement with a "context" so the context can provide any provenance > info. These sort of things are fine internal within a system but > aren't too helpful if you want to share that info and/or use it as > part of the RDF (RDFS/OWL) inferencing. 4Suite also does something this. I'd speculate that most uses of RDF in production/commercial scenarios are using quads. > Long-term (i.e. it's unlikely to be in a W3C spec in the near future) > there's Named Graphs as a very promising extension of RDF, for which > the theory has been worked out and is nice & intuitive. That's good to hear, because the provenance issues do tend to limit RDF usefulness. > A third approach to provenance is already supported by RDF, > reification. I still get very confused over this, Shelley Powers > called it "The Big Ugly". It's a bit like quotation but /different/ - > there is explanation in the Primer [2]. I've not used it myself, but a > presentation I saw last week convinced me the approach can work Reification only works because it's a semantic free for all - there's no consensus as to what it means, so you can pretty much get it to mean anything you want to mean [it's like our link extension construct but worse]. The fact that we can say it's a bit like quotation while describing it being used for provenance is a something of a issue - never mind that reification does not appear do what it was designed to do, which is different again from quotation or provenance, or that none of those things are reification in the technical sense of the word. Ack. It's a lasting regret from my time on the RDF WG that we didn't get rid of it. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Dec 18 11:17:51 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA28516 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 11:17:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBIFwmtp023662; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 07:58:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBIFwm3P023661; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 07:58:48 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBIFwlMj023645 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 07:58:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20041218155834.CVQU15658.mta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com>; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 15:58:34 +0000 Received: from cpc3-stke1-5-0-cust171.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([82.11.128.171]) by aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20041218155833.HBCP15415.aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@cpc3-stke1-5-0-cust171.bagu.cable.ntl.com>; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 15:58:33 +0000 Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 15:58:31 +0000 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.2.10) Professional Reply-To: David Powell X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <118390570.20041218155831@djpowell.net> To: Danny Ayers CC: bob@wyman.us, Ben Lund , mint@franklinmint.fm, James Robertson , Subject: Re[2]: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing" In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd041218024430d508cc@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f2ed5cd041217160464b4b799@mail.gmail.com> <200412180446.CEF21906@ms8.netsolmail.com> <1f2ed5cd041218024430d508cc@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Saturday, December 18, 2004, 10:44:29 AM, Danny Ayers wrote: > I've not really spent any time around provenance, but three approaches > spring to mind > ... Perhaps part of the problem is related to modelling dynamic data using a static model. Another approach would be to model those updates, rather than attempt to resolve them into a static model at the RDF level. This would require a vocabulary that explicitly supports an indirection between the item in the feed, and a particular state of the item in the feed. Eg, if RSS 1.0, looked something like this: whatever 2004-12-18 Then it would be possible to attach provenance information and temporal information to a particular version of an item in the feed. The choice of which state of an item to display could then be done at the application level, and it would be fairly easy to support extensions like delayed publishing, expiry, and deletion of items. -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Dec 18 12:39:01 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA03176 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 12:39:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBIHLolQ039277; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 09:21:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBIHLo0N039276; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 09:21:50 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBIHLjZR039260 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 09:21:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 28732 invoked by uid 17064); 18 Dec 2004 17:21:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.3]) ([83.112.15.55]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 18 Dec 2004 17:21:38 -0000 In-Reply-To: <41C4250F.9060603@dehora.net> References: <1f2ed5cd041217160464b4b799@mail.gmail.com> <200412180446.CEF21906@ms8.netsolmail.com> <1f2ed5cd041218024430d508cc@mail.gmail.com> <41C4250F.9060603@dehora.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <41CEF6F4-5119-11D9-B6D2-000A95D9FA7A@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Robert Sayre , atom-owl@googlegroups.com, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= , James Robertson , Bob Wyman , Danny Ayers , "'Atom WG'" From: Henry Story Subject: Re: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing": Atom is in RDF format Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 18:21:30 +0100 To: Ben Lund X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would like to suggest that Atom already is an RDF format. I have shown that it is [1], we just need to formalize this as I suggested in [2]. Let us do the journey from RDF triples to Atom format once again. Let us take the example in the current Atom spec and draw it as a triple graph. _f1 ---a------> |--- head---> _e1 ---a-----> | |---title---> "Example Feed" | |---link----> | |--updated--> "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:dateTime | |---author--> _a1 ---a-----> | |----name---> "John Doe"^^xsd:string | |---entry---> _e2 ---a-----> |---title---> "Atom Powered Robots Run Amok" |----id-----> |--updated--> "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:dateTime The above shows an anonymous node _f1, which is of class atom:Feed related to two other anonymous nodes _e1 and _e2, of type Entry. (That these are of type entry is still controversial, but it makes the point I am making easier to understand). _e1 is related to a Person anonymous noted by the atom:author property. All that is known of the person is their name "John Doe" which is an xsd:string. If we now follow the steps of the RDF/XML syntax specification [3] for converting a graph into XML we get the following transformations. 1. Simple RDF/XML ------------------ Here is perhaps the easiest to understand serialisation of the above graph. Example Feed 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z John Doe Atom Powered Robots Run Amok 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z 2. Simplifications ------------------ -simplify empty elements to Example Feed 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z John Doe Atom Powered Robots Run Amok 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z 3. OWL and xml schema simplifications ------------------------------------- - One can specify (apparently) in xml schema that a head, entry and author tags automatically have an rdf:ParseType="Resource". These can then be removed. - an owl file could specify that atom:href is a subproperty of rdf:resource, and so alloow us to replace rdf:resource with atom:href - finally we don't need to specify the rdf:types of the remaining elements as these are specified in the OWL file Example Feed 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z John Doe Atom Powered Robots Run Amok 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z As a result we have something that is very very very close to our current Atom syntax. Since we have a format that is rdf it is now very clear how it can be extended. Question: --------- Would this give you what you are looking for? Henry Story [1] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11317.html [2] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11640.html [3] http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-syntax-grammar/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Dec 20 03:35:59 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA10814 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 03:35:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBK8Blbr007466; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 00:11:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBK8Bl0q007465; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 00:11:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBK8BgBt007406 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 00:11:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 96614 invoked by uid 17064); 20 Dec 2004 08:11:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.3]) ([83.112.142.34]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Dec 2004 08:11:38 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Reply-To: atom-owl@googlegroups.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: "Role of RSS in Science Publishing": Atom is in RDF format Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 08:59:45 +0100 To: atom-owl@googlegroups.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I did not quite finish the last simplification (I had forgotten to remove a ParseType and a rdf:type). The result should have been Example Feed 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z John Doe Atom Powered Robots Run Amok 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z This exercise should be done with a much larger example, to see what bugs remain in the current spec. The above exercise show the following bugs: - Feed should probably be capitalized as above - id should take an href as above instead of the example from the spec "vemmi://example.org/2003/32397" Things like that are really simple cleaning up exercises, that would in no way change the functionality of Atom, but allow all of the RSS1.0 folk with their experience to declare Atom as their successor format, and Atom to come clean on its extensibility requirement from the charter. The nice thing is that this is done whilst taking on board all the criticism from the RSS2.0 folk. It looks to me that Atom is close to ending the RSS wars. Time to smoke the peace pipe. Henry Story On 18 Dec 2004, at 18:21, Henry Story wrote: > > > > Example Feed > > 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z > > > John Doe > > > > Atom Powered Robots Run Amok > > 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Dec 20 18:49:21 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA26611 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 18:49:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBKNam9L053835; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 15:36:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBKNamgS053834; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 15:36:48 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.200]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBKNah8c053785 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 15:36:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id f1so15033rne for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 15:36:43 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=JCOCS/8w2q71EEhwFD6rLEGPtdYN97ceBN8MckCRZokBU+EXWtEsBH7lVO6M0n6NaT/VuvsR/gAAemKYGr2B89n1Tiu8GewUlOSPLs4yY9YjFyoE1PgjKWmbblaRRAD3xID56HjTP7kLJxfUD+pznBTqlflK28G3IBNVZ5k/29w= Received: by 10.38.102.18 with SMTP id z18mr408035rnb; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 15:36:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.72.20 with HTTP; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 15:36:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2bcdc7c40412201536668ad951@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 15:36:42 -0800 From: James Snell Reply-To: James Snell To: bob@wyman.us Subject: Re: Atom Notification Protocol Published Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200412180734.CEF62940@ms8.netsolmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <2bcdc7c404121715174f758f17@mail.gmail.com> <200412180734.CEF62940@ms8.netsolmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 02:34:18 -0500, Bob Wyman wrote: > James Snell wrote: > > For XMPP-enabled environments, draft-saintandre-atompub-notify-01 > > is Goodness. Not every environment is going to be XMPP-enabled. > > Just about everyone is HTTP POST enabled. > I think that focusing on the differences between XMPP and HTTP POST > is not really useful in this discussion. Each transport protocol has > advantages in one or another environment. What's interesting is not the > transport protocol but rather the payload that is transported! (i.e. The > slogan "It's about the Entries, Stupid!" applies in this case.) You're absolutely correct of course. > I think the important point is that there probably isn't a great > deal of justification for having different payload formats for these > protocols. If we strip away the XMPP and HTTP "transport" wrappers, > overhead, etc. I don't see any reason why it would be useful to have > different messages. > Honestly I do not know enough about the use cases of the XMPP based mechanism to pass judgement on their payload formats. What I can say, however, is that for the Atom Notification Protocol (ANP) approach, nothing more than the entry and feed elements are necessary. If we can get some alignment between this and the XMPP stuff, wonderful, but I'd very much like to avoid adding anything else to the ANP payloads > bob wyman > > -- - James Snell http://www.snellspace.com jasnell@gmail.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Dec 20 19:34:40 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA26612 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 18:49:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBKNXlcV050309; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 15:33:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBKNXl5T050306; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 15:33:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.196]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBKNXjSM050071 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 15:33:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id r35so540504rna for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 15:33:42 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=h+9PbIckWV2skZ/vLm35cyVBu4Bdov4DFW/CMVEySiIKIbaXnAncQz1UBK9JJECn1Ze/S3O0vPsplqD31KXvPtnUSIlK8alMKthMJfqUoyglxqzeoz7/qTb5FpaOJlOYgyWLSWAfYbHaN22vTMOhdrFpZL6ivm2jEmEih3Hj1lc= Received: by 10.38.102.8 with SMTP id z8mr249139rnb; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 15:33:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.72.20 with HTTP; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 15:33:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2bcdc7c404122015335b42d0ac@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 15:33:42 -0800 From: James Snell Reply-To: James Snell To: bob@wyman.us Subject: Re: Atom Notification Protocol Published Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org, atom-protocol@imc.org In-Reply-To: <200412180742.CEF65051@ms8.netsolmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <2bcdc7c404121613464c0709b9@mail.gmail.com> <200412180742.CEF65051@ms8.netsolmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Requiring atom:head in entries posted without an enclosing feed is fine. I'll go ahead and make that change. On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 02:42:34 -0500, Bob Wyman wrote: > I would strongly recommend that it be required that an atom:entry that is > published with no enclosing atom:feed MUST contain an atom:head element. If > this is not the case, the published atom:entries will be essentially > anonymous and thus largely useless. Virtually every Atom processor in > existence requires elements of atom:head when handling entries. I can > imagine very few applications (other than closed ones) that could make use > of atom:entries that do not contain atom:head elements and are not > themselves enclosed in atom:feeds. > > bob wyman > > -- - James Snell http://www.snellspace.com jasnell@gmail.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Dec 21 13:04:22 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA04929 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 13:04:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBLHqaPW070047; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:52:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBLHqarD070046; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:52:36 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from main.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBLHqZdC070023 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:52:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ga-atom-syntax@gmane.org) Received: from list by main.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1CgoBa-0002qF-00 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:52:38 +0100 Received: from corp-fw-main.jabber.com ([207.182.164.14]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:52:38 +0100 Received: from stpeter by corp-fw-main.jabber.com with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:52:38 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Peter Saint-Andre Subject: Re: Atom Notification Protocol Published Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 10:52:40 -0700 Organization: Jabber Software Foundation Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <2bcdc7c404121715174f758f17@mail.gmail.com> <200412180734.CEF62940@ms8.netsolmail.com> <2bcdc7c40412201536668ad951@mail.gmail.com> X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: corp-fw-main.jabber.com User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.4 (PPC Mac OS X) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In article <2bcdc7c40412201536668ad951@mail.gmail.com>, James Snell wrote: > On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 02:34:18 -0500, Bob Wyman > wrote: > > I think the important point is that there probably isn't a great > > deal of justification for having different payload formats for these > > protocols. If we strip away the XMPP and HTTP "transport" wrappers, > > overhead, etc. I don't see any reason why it would be useful to have > > different messages. > > Honestly I do not know enough about the use cases of the XMPP based > mechanism to pass judgement on their payload formats. What I can say, > however, is that for the Atom Notification Protocol (ANP) approach, > nothing more than the entry and feed elements are necessary. If we > can get some alignment between this and the XMPP stuff, wonderful, but > I'd very much like to avoid adding anything else to the ANP payloads Well, I think we need to have consistency on what Bob is calling the "message" or "payload", which in both cases would be pure Atom, no (ignoring the "wrapper" elements that, for instance, define semantics in XMPP pubsub). I'll review both documents more closely to make sure that we have consistency. Peter From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Dec 21 13:05:08 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA05086 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 13:05:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBLHkgCJ064532; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:46:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBLHkgo4064531; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:46:42 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from main.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBLHkekK064422 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:46:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ga-atom-syntax@gmane.org) Received: from list by main.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1Cgo5l-0002Z0-00 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:46:37 +0100 Received: from corp-fw-main.jabber.com ([207.182.164.14]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:46:37 +0100 Received: from stpeter by corp-fw-main.jabber.com with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:46:37 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Peter Saint-Andre Subject: Re: Atom Notification Protocol Published Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 10:46:38 -0700 Organization: Jabber Software Foundation Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <2bcdc7c404121613464c0709b9@mail.gmail.com> <200412180742.CEF65051@ms8.netsolmail.com> X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: corp-fw-main.jabber.com User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.4 (PPC Mac OS X) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In article <200412180742.CEF65051@ms8.netsolmail.com>, "Bob Wyman" wrote: > I would strongly recommend that it be required that an atom:entry that is > published with no enclosing atom:feed MUST contain an atom:head element. If > this is not the case, the published atom:entries will be essentially > anonymous and thus largely useless. Virtually every Atom processor in > existence requires elements of atom:head when handling entries. I can > imagine very few applications (other than closed ones) that could make use > of atom:entries that do not contain atom:head elements and are not > themselves enclosed in atom:feeds. That makes sense. I probably won't publish another version of the Atom-over-XMPP draft until Atom becomes more stable, but I'll at least add this to my working copy of the I-D. Peter From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Dec 21 16:51:58 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA29692 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:51:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBLLd3Ha085665; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 13:39:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBLLd3XT085664; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 13:39:03 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBLLd1eU085588 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 13:39:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (203.30.247.2) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Wed, 22 Dec 2004 08:38:20 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 08:38:29 +1100 Subject: Re: Atom Notification Protocol Published From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200412180742.CEF65051@ms8.netsolmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 18/12/04 5:42 PM, "Bob Wyman" wrote: > I would strongly recommend that it be required that an atom:entry that is > published with no enclosing atom:feed MUST contain an atom:head element. If > this is not the case, the published atom:entries will be essentially > anonymous and thus largely useless. From the spec: The "atom:author" element is a Person construct that indicates the default author of the entry. atom:entry elements MUST contain exactly one atom:author element, unless, in an Atom Feed Document, the atom:head element contains a atom:author element itself. atom:entry elements MUST NOT contain more than one atom:author element. Seems pretty clear to me that an atom entry outside of an Atom Feed Document wouldn't be anonymous. has similar rules. Looking at the list of elements one would find in a leaves me wondering what other elements you might want. Some entries are posted into multiple feeds simultaneously ... would you want the entry to have multiple head-in-entry elements? How does that fit your data model? e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Dec 21 19:57:08 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA28761 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:57:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBM0ihOL040488; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:44:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBM0ih23040487; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:44:43 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr2.netsolmail.com (omr2.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.163]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBM0iarH040448 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:44:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr2.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iBM0ibG8027360; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:44:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from boblaptop (68-174-167-137.nyc.rr.com [68.174.167.137]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id CEW65616; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:44:36 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200412220044.CEW65616@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Eric Scheid'" , "'Atom Syntax'" Subject: RE: Atom Notification Protocol Published Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:44:33 -0500 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcTnqA6tb21R8mNgQLuz8uMFX5UmHQAFrVFw Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Scheid wrote: > Looking at the list of elements one would find in a leaves > me wondering what other elements you might want. Title, Link, Author, tagline, and others... As well as any "extension" stuff that might be there. For instance, at somepoint, we're going to get some way to associate an image with a feed as is done with RSS. bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Dec 22 00:47:09 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA21681 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:47:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBM5YGAD039837; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:34:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBM5YGSB039836; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:34:16 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBM5YEjI039406 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:34:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (203.30.247.2) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:33:35 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:33:48 +1100 Subject: Re: Atom Notification Protocol Published From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200412220044.CEW65616@ms8.netsolmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 22/12/04 11:44 AM, "Bob Wyman" wrote: > Eric Scheid wrote: >> Looking at the list of elements one would find in a leaves >> me wondering what other elements you might want. > > Title, Link, Author, tagline, and others... As well as any > "extension" stuff that might be there. Feed specific stuff is useful for identifying and filling out the feed, but they don't (shouldn't) have much bearing on the entries themselves. > For instance, at somepoint, we're going to get some way to associate an image > with a feed as is done with RSS. But that image is associated with the *feed*, not the *entry*. Consider the entry which is simultaneously published in multiple feeds -- does that somehow change the nature of the *entry* itself, other than the context of circumstance? And if an entry could exist in multiple feeds, is it possible an entry could exist without being in any feed? Finding such entry might be a tad difficult, or maybe not ... it might be a side-entry linked from a regular feed-entry, and thus discoverable. Are you suggesting that before an entry can be authored, a feed must first be established into which it would then be placed? e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Dec 22 19:10:38 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA19351 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:10:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBMNpxfe068276; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:51:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBMNpxwU068273; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:51:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from main.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBMNpqVe067980 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:51:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ga-atom-syntax@gmane.org) Received: from list by main.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ChGGf-0005OS-00 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 00:51:45 +0100 Received: from corp-fw-main.jabber.com ([207.182.164.14]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 00:51:45 +0100 Received: from stpeter by corp-fw-main.jabber.com with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 00:51:45 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Peter Saint-Andre Subject: Re: Atom Notification Protocol Published Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:51:43 -0700 Organization: Jabber Software Foundation Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <2bcdc7c404121613464c0709b9@mail.gmail.com> <200412180742.CEF65051@ms8.netsolmail.com> X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: corp-fw-main.jabber.com User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.4 (PPC Mac OS X) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In article , Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > In article > <200412180742.CEF65051@ms8.netsolmail.com>, > "Bob Wyman" wrote: > > > I would strongly recommend that it be required that an atom:entry that is > > published with no enclosing atom:feed MUST contain an atom:head element. If > > this is not the case, the published atom:entries will be essentially > > anonymous and thus largely useless. Virtually every Atom processor in > > existence requires elements of atom:head when handling entries. I can > > imagine very few applications (other than closed ones) that could make use > > of atom:entries that do not contain atom:head elements and are not > > themselves enclosed in atom:feeds. > > That makes sense. I probably won't publish another version of the > Atom-over-XMPP draft until Atom becomes more stable, but I'll at least > add this to my working copy of the I-D. Forgive my ignorance, but I don't see any examples of atom:head within atom:entry, and the spec does not contain a schema. Is head allowed within entry? Peter From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Dec 23 14:59:37 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA14484 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 14:59:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBNJje60059706; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:45:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBNJjek8059705; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:45:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBNJjdK2059684 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:45:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id g11so158595rne for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:45:37 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=hJgmbyplXFC/+1g1h40m3WPQ47Jgp+yeJK326cEnz3A2VFdQlwB7gH7eweymtwH/gZfPjdbX3exsTciDjARFaA7p8v3CK59pyudW93H0eb7l7Prd4L3RPe41GnoKyyEeO7zbwknrd62BPa/XXm5lkib2dKyOk/qIF+rHpgS7LRs= Received: by 10.38.77.57 with SMTP id z57mr42821rna; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:45:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.72.20 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:45:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2bcdc7c404122311451063df01@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:45:37 -0800 From: James Snell Reply-To: James Snell To: Peter Saint-Andre Subject: Re: Atom Notification Protocol Published Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <2bcdc7c404121613464c0709b9@mail.gmail.com> <200412180742.CEF65051@ms8.netsolmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Head elements in the entry have been discussed on the list and are described here: http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceHeadInEntry. AFAIK, The proposal has been accepted and is slated for incorporation into the draft. On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:51:43 -0700, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > > In article , > Peter Saint-Andre > wrote: > > > In article > > <200412180742.CEF65051@ms8.netsolmail.com>, > > "Bob Wyman" wrote: > > > > > I would strongly recommend that it be required that an atom:entry that is > > > published with no enclosing atom:feed MUST contain an atom:head element. If > > > this is not the case, the published atom:entries will be essentially > > > anonymous and thus largely useless. Virtually every Atom processor in > > > existence requires elements of atom:head when handling entries. I can > > > imagine very few applications (other than closed ones) that could make use > > > of atom:entries that do not contain atom:head elements and are not > > > themselves enclosed in atom:feeds. > > > > That makes sense. I probably won't publish another version of the > > Atom-over-XMPP draft until Atom becomes more stable, but I'll at least > > add this to my working copy of the I-D. > > Forgive my ignorance, but I don't see any examples of atom:head within > atom:entry, and the spec does not contain a schema. Is head allowed > within entry? > > Peter > > -- - James Snell http://www.snellspace.com jasnell@gmail.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Dec 29 10:12:01 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA15357 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:12:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBTEnKua062702; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 06:49:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id iBTEnKbp062701; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 06:49:20 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from motgate8.mot.com (motgate8.mot.com [129.188.136.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBTEnJde062690 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 06:49:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett.lindsley@labs.mot.com) Received: from az33exr02.mot.com (az33exr02.mot.com [10.64.251.232]) by motgate8.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate8) with ESMTP id iBTEp6fL011134 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 07:51:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from labs.mot.com (udomsvc2.labs.mot.com [173.23.250.2]) by az33exr02.mot.com (Motorola/az33exr02) with ESMTP id iBTEkPXw008281 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:46:26 -0600 Received: from udomsvc5.labs.mot.com (udomsvc5.labs.mot.com [173.23.250.5]) by labs.mot.com (MotLabs Smoke & Mirrors) with ESMTP id iBTEnHtv002952 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:49:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from labs.mot.com by ims1.labs.mot.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 (built Feb 21 2002)) with ESMTP id <0I9H00F2ONU4OF@ims1.labs.mot.com> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:49:17 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:49:17 -0600 From: Brett Lindsley Subject: Finding Source Feed Using PaceHeadInEntry Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Message-id: <41D2C3ED.6010705@labs.mot.com> Organization: Mot Labs MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en,pdf User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 References: <2bcdc7c404121613464c0709b9@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I was just reviewing the latest PaceHeadInEntry document and have a question. Assume that an application was given an entry containing a head, how does the application determine the source feed URL in order to obtain more entries from the original feed or to subscribe to it? Given the example in PaceHeadInEntry, the link in the head within the entry points to the HTML page. I assume this HTML page would need to be loaded and then the head would be searched for links (autodiscovery procedure). The links would then point to the feed where the entry originated. One concern I have is that according to the autodiscovery spec, the head may have multiple links - there is no way to know which feed contains the original entry. Any thoughts on having a mechanism to indicate directly where the feed was obtained from? A few thoughts are: - If an entry contains a head, then it *must* contain an atom:origin (or some other similar construct) to indicate the original source of the entry. I realize the atom:origin would need some re-work for this. - The head within the entry could contain a link that indicates where the source feed was obtained from such as: