From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Mar 1 05:58:52 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA11945 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 05:58:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j21AdtU4050598; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 02:39:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j21Adt2g050597; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 02:39:55 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j21AddFR050425 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 02:39:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 4854 invoked by uid 17064); 1 Mar 2005 10:39:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.7]) ([83.112.100.149]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 1 Mar 2005 10:39:25 -0000 In-Reply-To: <421881A4.2080808@dehora.net> References: <2693b1a97ad9d0ed1cd6a943b5805b68@mac.com> <421881A4.2080808@dehora.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: <82fc5d71a1e737c870180a1488d984af@bblfish.net> Cc: Robert Sayre , Mark Nottingham , Atom Syntax , Paul Hoffman , Tim Bray , Sam Ruby From: Henry Story Subject: Re: Managing entries/entry state [was PaceRepeatIdInDocument solution] Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:39:21 +0100 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j21AddFR050501 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 20 Feb 2005, at 13:25, Bill de hÓra wrote: > Graham, Eric, Ok since the above chickened out of answering your questions above, I'll do so myself. > > My thinking goes like this, > > - Is there a difference between an entry and the chunk of XML you see > in a feed? The question is vague and open to many interpretations, but I'd go for a yes. > - If there is, it will be in the same way there is a difference > between a resource and a representation in web architecture. Yes indeed that is the difference as I read it here [3]. > - If you *don't* think a difference exists between an entry and the > chunk of XML you see in a feed, there may be things you can't sensibly > say [1]. For example if we disallow multiple appearance of an id in > one feed we might as well disallow multiple appearance of an id across > all feeds, for consistency. That, or document our spec's private > definition of the word "unique". > > - If you *do* think a difference exists between an entry and the chunk > of XML you see in a feed, there may be some practical limitations. For > example we will want to ask what's the difference operationally > between two Entries that have been assigned the same id and the > appearance of two entries with the same in an Atom document that > represent the Entry at different states? What's the test that > distinguishes between those two cases? Here you raise a good question. But the way you ask it makes me think that behind this question lurks a deep skepticism on our ability to think historically at all. The answer is simple: there is no one unique test. But this does not entail that the distinction is not a perfectly good one that we can use. Think about our historical knowledge. How do you know that you are the person with a certain social security number? You may pull out your social security card, but a skeptic could go on to argue that this card may be forged. Or they could argue that the card is real but that you have taken on the appearance of the person to whom it really belonged. You may then point to all the people around you who have known you for a long time, your school teacher, your family, your friends, etc. And this usually helps a lot, indeed is usually considered to be the basis of knowledge of your identity. You don't get absolute philosophical certainty, but you do get knowledge, even though at each point a case could be constructed in which one was wrong to go by that evidence to reach that conclusion. But this is a well known problem in epistemology, and I would recommend reading the late Robert Nozick's book "Philosophical Explanations" [4] to help understand how to navigate that particular minefield. So here are some ways you would go about finding out if two entries with the same id (the functional id I keep speaking about, the one that acts the way a social security number works to identify you): - You could simply ask the author if these are the same entry. Did he go to the earlier representation of the entry by a series of transformation steps to the later representation? The types of steps one would think of are: fixing spelling mistakes or grammatical errors, correcting a bad expression of the thought, ... - The author is not the only one to determine the identity of the entry. Once people start reading and commenting on an entry, they in part act to constrain what the identity relation of an entry is. An author who would use completely unpredictable identity relations would confuse his readers, would reduce the point of replying to his posts or reading them. Ie. He would make it difficult to distinguish his posts from junk. > - That we can start sending multiple representations of a resource > each marked as so inside another single representation I suspect > extends web architecture. I looked and didn't see any support for this > idea in AWWW. Whether it's tunneling, abuse, or a new application > layer I don't know. I suspect that if this had been a problem in web architecture, it would have been noticed long ago. The above seems to be saying that the web can only speak about the present. But it clearly can speak about the past as well. Just check out the XML-HR standard. When I write a resume using that format, I am writing a document which describes another resource's (me) history. If one suspect that there is something so fundamentally wrong with web architecture, then this is not the forum to discuss that. One should go to the web arch forums. Here we should assume that there is no such problem. Specialization of tasks demands that. > - Maybe the WebDAV folks have been through this. HTTP has no obvious > use cases or support for serving up resource state in one entity body > rather than as a stream of entities. > > > My opinion is that keeping XML representations of entries distinct > from entries affords the most flexibility and maximises internal > consistency for the kind of use cases feeds support [2]. It will be an > arbitrary limitation of language if Atom can't deliver entries with > the same id in the same feed - I don't believe that limitation will be > respected in practice. It also means we're (possibly) formalizing > something for the Web that hasn't been done before. We seem to be agreeing on which the correct position to take is. But I really don't believe we are doing something that may have implications for web architecture. In any case I have seen no proof that having a feed document with multiple entries with the same id may have any problematic consequences. On the other hand it would be overwhelmingly helpful. Henry Story > > cheers > Bill > > > [1] I emphasise 'sensibly say' here rather than 'sensibly do'. Just > because or spec can't say something doesn't mean people won't try to > do it if they think they need to. > > [2] I spend a lot of time dealing with identity issues in my job. I've > come to believe that neither unique ids or content based identity or a > combination of both can eliminate all ambiguities. Sometimes you have > to guess whether two things are the same no matter what model you're > working with. [3] http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#URI-persistence [4] http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0674664795/qid=1109670853 [5] http://www.xml-hr.org/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Mar 1 06:42:51 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA14778 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 06:42:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j21BPfih065050; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 03:25:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j21BPf8t065049; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 03:25:41 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j21BPcDe064859 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 03:25:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (203.30.247.2) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Wed, 2 Mar 2005 00:25:49 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 22:25:00 +1100 Subject: Re: Managing entries/entry state [was PaceRepeatIdInDocument solution] From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <82fc5d71a1e737c870180a1488d984af@bblfish.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j21BPfDe065043 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/3/05 9:39 PM, "Henry Story" wrote: > On 20 Feb 2005, at 13:25, Bill de hÓra wrote: >> Graham, Eric, > > Ok since the above chickened out of answering your questions above, > I'll do so myself. My apologies: I didn't see the second part of that email. I thought the extent of Bill's email was the bit addressed to the chairs/editors. In summary response, I agree with Bill -- entries are resources, s are representations. There is a notional construct thing we call an 'entry', and there is an XML representation of that thing. The spec shouldn't disallow multiple instances of s with the same , however as a compromise I suggest the spec might use the SHOULD qualifier ... that is, instances SHOULD NOT have multiple s with the same . What this means is that if you have a good reason to do so, and you realize that there are a lot of dumb aggregators out there that will choke, and that's ok by you, then go ahead. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 3 08:27:04 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA22316 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:27:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j23D3Pwq001702; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 05:03:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j23D3PpS001700; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 05:03:25 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.201]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j23D3JTQ001616 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 05:03:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so300572rns for ; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 05:03:15 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=MV+rFdwBzyFvUV20bRvNDjvTaXmDgp/DmUv2o0r8J+2a/02dW+OHHKng8ZiF/XDKJICaihCPvwhno/InxJpN/1/6BwdRjTzGO73HoUMkYbsBZamtkyuAADyv3ITl46CPM9JltLVXnm7LxuIb/2ycXUhnc5Lih38f2cRZJOhIbgk= Received: by 10.38.179.2 with SMTP id b2mr71594rnf; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 05:03:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.25 with HTTP; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 05:03:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0503030503238b7bd9@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:03:14 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: mint@franklinmint.fm Subject: Re: FotoNotes extension (was: AtomPubIssuesList for 2005/02/22) Cc: Paul Hoffman , Atom-Syntax In-Reply-To: <421C0F05.6030600@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <412B23C4.9010602@intertwingly.net> <4198C7F6.7040606@intertwingly.net> <41AF672A.60106@intertwingly.net> <41E3E56F.1030209@intertwingly.net> <41E444EB.6030903@intertwingly.net> <41E6D8BC.405@intertwingly.net> <4207A5D7.6040704@intertwingly.net> <421B5057.2020603@intertwingly.net> <421C0F05.6030600@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:05:09 -0500, Robert Sayre wrote: > > Paul Hoffman wrote: > > > This is also a reasonable time to start creating format extensions and > > talking about them here. > > Here's one that's sort of done: > http://fotonotes.net/spec/index.cgi?FotoNotesSpecification > > This is what will carry Flickr annotations, and they do it with Atom and > RDF. They made a few mistakes. One of them centered around the purpose > of atom:id. That means *smart people miss the point*, because it's a > subtly different than RSS. I think starting the example atom:id with > "urn:uuid" instead of "vemmi://" would help quite a bit. Now the Tag URI scheme's [1] been approved by the IESG, maybe that's worth considering again. If I get chance I'll see what Yahoo's Media RSS looks like as Atom (it's currently written for RSS 2.0). I had a play the other day and it translated into RDF/XML with RSS 1.0 pretty nicely [2], I think it could also lend itself to being a fairly format-agnostic vocabulary in a similar manner to FotoNotes. Cheers, Danny. [1] http://www.taguri.org/ [2] http://dannyayers.com/archives/2005/03/01/yahoo-rss-media-as-rdf/ -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 4 18:39:39 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA20100 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 18:39:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j24NLuAL047150; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:21:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j24NLuon047149; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:21:56 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.196]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j24NLpoF047137 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:21:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so487523rns for ; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 15:21:45 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=QeptzQ/sZt8tf1b4ZQF79dGkOEJ48baNILWgbJithEdZUfD/z0QHwELy6j8xrtM7/3/bG8PA3TKvoZTBWN357gisM66trxQuABOQZIosTk5MaP1SYt4T7kPYOMTiu7xABmbNV/UB+068l8d0Rjhj5Do+lKTkVj2B9rnkt65FaDI= Received: by 10.38.8.39 with SMTP id 39mr18555rnh; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 15:21:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.25 with HTTP; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:21:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd050304152173c45789@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 00:21:45 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: David Powell Subject: Re: Migrating extensions (was: [rss-media] Coexistence with Atom ?) Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <12410667393.20050224201223@djpowell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200502230447.CQK38867@ms8.netsolmail.com> <12410667393.20050224201223@djpowell.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:12:23 +0000, David Powell wrote: > > > One of the reasons for proposing PaceExtensionConstruct [1] was to allow existing RSS extensions and RDF properties to be used in Atom. > > If we have no model for extension elements, other than that they are bits of opaque infoset hanging in specific but meaningless places, then it seems that we need to redefine all existing extensions for use in Atom on a case-by-case basis. This thread seems to confirm that. > > Is that the best that we can come up with? Try asking again in a year or so's time, when we have an audio extension defined by Microsoft for Microsoft applications, a threading extension defined by Google for Google applications and a video extension defined by Yahoo for Yahoo applications. Case-by-case will favour those with the weight to ensure enough deployment to bootstrap general adoption. The long term network-effect driven gains of interop are outweighed by the short-term competitive advantage of features. Proprietary Atom solutions here we come! Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Mar 5 08:55:32 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA16340 for ; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 08:55:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j25Dc5Bw043231; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 05:38:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j25Dc5At043230; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 05:38:05 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail05.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail05.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.21]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j25Dc0Dp043187 for ; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 05:38:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 91722 messnum 3323226 invoked from network[83.70.250.89/83-70-250-89.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 5 Mar 2005 13:37:54 -0000 Received: from 83-70-250-89.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?192.168.123.143?) (83.70.250.89) by mail05.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 91722) with SMTP; 5 Mar 2005 13:37:54 -0000 Message-ID: <4229B630.8030403@dehora.net> Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 13:37:52 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Migrating extensions References: <200502230447.CQK38867@ms8.netsolmail.com> <12410667393.20050224201223@djpowell.net> <1f2ed5cd050304152173c45789@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd050304152173c45789@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Danny Ayers wrote: > Try asking again in a year or so's time, when we have an audio > extension defined by Microsoft for Microsoft applications, a threading > extension defined by Google for Google applications and a video > extension defined by Yahoo for Yahoo applications. Case-by-case will > favour those with the weight to ensure enough deployment to bootstrap > general adoption. The long term network-effect driven gains of interop > are outweighed by the short-term competitive advantage of features. > Proprietary Atom solutions here we come! Now we're aware of the issue, what are the options for the format? cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Mar 5 09:44:16 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA19544 for ; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 09:44:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j25EQQC7048490; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 06:26:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j25EQQSB048489; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 06:26:26 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j25EQCQl048445 for ; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 06:26:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j25EPOUh020153; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 14:25:35 GMT In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd050304152173c45789@mail.gmail.com> References: <200502230447.CQK38867@ms8.netsolmail.com> <12410667393.20050224201223@djpowell.net> <1f2ed5cd050304152173c45789@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <74d796de6b5974ca05718e8bd7b6d384@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" , David Powell From: Graham Subject: Re: Migrating extensions (was: [rss-media] Coexistence with Atom ?) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 14:25:18 +0000 To: Danny Ayers X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 4 Mar 2005, at 11:21 pm, Danny Ayers wrote: > Try asking again in a year or so's time, when we have an audio > extension defined by Microsoft for Microsoft applications, a threading > extension defined by Google for Google applications and a video > extension defined by Yahoo for Yahoo applications. Case-by-case will > favour those with the weight to ensure enough deployment to bootstrap > general adoption. The long term network-effect driven gains of interop > are outweighed by the short-term competitive advantage of features. > Proprietary Atom solutions here we come! I suggest we set up a panel to assess new extensions. They will solicit bids from all the major vendors for threading, video, audio etc and the best in each category will be chosen. If a vendor chooses to use there own extension over the one we choose for them, they will have just 48 hours until bombing commences. Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Mar 5 12:29:08 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA02061 for ; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 12:29:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j25H9kn1058930; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 09:09:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j25H9kN5058929; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 09:09:46 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail10.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail10.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.26]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j25H9eiZ058906 for ; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 09:09:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 27268 messnum 6680578 invoked from network[83.70.250.89/83-70-250-89.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 5 Mar 2005 17:09:32 -0000 Received: from 83-70-250-89.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?192.168.123.143?) (83.70.250.89) by mail10.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 27268) with SMTP; 5 Mar 2005 17:09:32 -0000 Message-ID: <4229E7CC.2000602@dehora.net> Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 17:09:32 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Migrating extensions References: <200502230447.CQK38867@ms8.netsolmail.com> <12410667393.20050224201223@djpowell.net> <1f2ed5cd050304152173c45789@mail.gmail.com> <4229B630.8030403@dehora.net> <422A0D6F.3000401@franklinmint.fm> In-Reply-To: <422A0D6F.3000401@franklinmint.fm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Robert Sayre wrote: > Bill de hÓra wrote: > >> >> Danny Ayers wrote: >> >>> Try asking again in a year or so's time, when we have an audio >>> extension defined by Microsoft for Microsoft applications, a threading >>> extension defined by Google for Google applications and a video >>> extension defined by Yahoo for Yahoo applications. Case-by-case will >>> favour those with the weight to ensure enough deployment to bootstrap >>> general adoption. The long term network-effect driven gains of interop >>> are outweighed by the short-term competitive advantage of features. >>> Proprietary Atom solutions here we come! >> >> >> >> Now we're aware of the issue, what are the options for the format? > > As with anything, there will be a big mess, and then the good stuff will > get standardized. I don't see a problem. In the long run we're all dead, is as good a riposte as any to that sirrah. But, if people think extensions are an issue, then maybe there's spec text to be had, which is where I was trying to go. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Mar 5 12:52:56 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA03483 for ; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 12:52:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j25HjrpG061537; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 09:45:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j25HjrJ6061536; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 09:45:53 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j25HjqVM061526 for ; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 09:45:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j25HjoX8001694 for ; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:45:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0ICW00COH40DR3@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sat, 05 Mar 2005 10:45:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.17] ([216.113.204.232]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0ICW0007F40C8A@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sat, 05 Mar 2005 10:45:49 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 09:45:56 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Migrating extensions (was: [rss-media] Coexistence with Atom ?) In-reply-to: <74d796de6b5974ca05718e8bd7b6d384@mac.com> To: Graham Cc: "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" , Danny Ayers , David Powell Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <200502230447.CQK38867@ms8.netsolmail.com> <12410667393.20050224201223@djpowell.net> <1f2ed5cd050304152173c45789@mail.gmail.com> <74d796de6b5974ca05718e8bd7b6d384@mac.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mar 5, 2005, at 6:25 AM, Graham wrote: > I suggest we set up a panel to assess new extensions. They will > solicit bids from all the major vendors for threading, video, audio > etc and the best in each category will be chosen. If a vendor chooses > to use there own extension over the one we choose for them, they will > have just 48 hours until bombing commences. Damn good thinking. But bombing may be sub-optimal; how about retaining the services of a ring of ruthless hired killers instead? -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Mar 5 13:28:36 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA05653 for ; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 13:28:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j25IBWX1063245; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:11:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j25IBWCE063244; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:11:32 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j25IBLn5063222 for ; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:11:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgfd.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.65.237] helo=franklinmint.fm) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1D7cYj-0006dw-Do; Sat, 05 Mar 2005 16:55:21 +0000 Message-ID: <422A0D6F.3000401@franklinmint.fm> Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:50:07 -0800 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (X11/20040208) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Migrating extensions References: <200502230447.CQK38867@ms8.netsolmail.com> <12410667393.20050224201223@djpowell.net> <1f2ed5cd050304152173c45789@mail.gmail.com> <4229B630.8030403@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: <4229B630.8030403@dehora.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill de hÓra wrote: > > Danny Ayers wrote: > >> Try asking again in a year or so's time, when we have an audio >> extension defined by Microsoft for Microsoft applications, a threading >> extension defined by Google for Google applications and a video >> extension defined by Yahoo for Yahoo applications. Case-by-case will >> favour those with the weight to ensure enough deployment to bootstrap >> general adoption. The long term network-effect driven gains of interop >> are outweighed by the short-term competitive advantage of features. >> Proprietary Atom solutions here we come! > > > Now we're aware of the issue, what are the options for the format? As with anything, there will be a big mess, and then the good stuff will get standardized. I don't see a problem. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Mar 5 14:04:12 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA07991 for ; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 14:04:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j25IoQqK065869; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:50:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j25IoQPg065868; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:50:26 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.197]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j25IoQD1065859 for ; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:50:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so535956rns for ; Sat, 05 Mar 2005 10:50:24 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=gRoQgTkoh/T3sQLQhRc+9JfpRqY3rMuvbTSINEWLEF50ZAD9SGzgwOA3RmM17V03kFe3VK7jF6+ccs7eRQQOSqTC/hAkB4pHKXWGPq7OlueiNuIFxIfsxs6h1DVtN9RTb5Jiw9a0CzqbsqIcIS75ENL30X69Y6Z0gc9SmPQZRW4= Received: by 10.38.8.56 with SMTP id 56mr41211rnh; Sat, 05 Mar 2005 10:50:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.25 with HTTP; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:50:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd05030510507e77ac5b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 19:50:23 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Migrating extensions (was: [rss-media] Coexistence with Atom ?) Cc: Graham , "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" , David Powell In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200502230447.CQK38867@ms8.netsolmail.com> <12410667393.20050224201223@djpowell.net> <1f2ed5cd050304152173c45789@mail.gmail.com> <74d796de6b5974ca05718e8bd7b6d384@mac.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 09:45:56 -0800, Tim Bray wrote: > On Mar 5, 2005, at 6:25 AM, Graham wrote: > > > I suggest we set up a panel to assess new extensions. They will > > solicit bids from all the major vendors for threading, video, audio > > etc and the best in each category will be chosen. If a vendor chooses > > to use there own extension over the one we choose for them, they will > > have just 48 hours until bombing commences. > > Damn good thinking. But bombing may be sub-optimal; how about > retaining the services of a ring of ruthless hired killers instead? Yep. Even considering the economies outsourcing can offer, long term I bet employment of mercenaries works out cheaper than the programmers needed to support Nx(N-1) extensions... Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 6 06:04:22 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA27255 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 06:04:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j26AhJMm008752; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 02:43:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j26AhJQ0008751; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 02:43:19 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j26AhH5Y008611 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 02:43:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian.reschke@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 06 Mar 2005 10:43:03 -0000 Received: from pD9FF09BF.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO [192.168.0.4]) (217.255.9.191) by mail.gmx.net (mp014) with SMTP; 06 Mar 2005 11:43:03 +0100 X-Authenticated: #1915285 Message-ID: <422ADEB0.3050401@gmx.de> Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 11:42:56 +0100 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Status of draft-ietf-atompub-format Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, apparently, the new draft (06) wasn't finished in time for submission before the meeting cutoff. As this draft is the one that's supposed to be submitted for publication (at least that's my understanding), wouldn't it make a lot of sense to make the current edits available for review (*before* it is committed after the end of the IETF meeting)? Best regards, Julian -- bytes GmbH -- http://www.greenbytes.de -- tel:+492512807760 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 6 12:35:21 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA01449 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 12:35:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j26HFp7I083524; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 09:15:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j26HFpFF083523; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 09:15:51 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [10.20.30.249] (wireless-130-129-135-197.ietf62.ietf.org [130.129.135.197]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j26HFi1Q083516; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 09:15:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <422ADEB0.3050401@gmx.de> References: <422ADEB0.3050401@gmx.de> Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 11:15:44 -0600 To: Julian Reschke , Atom Syntax From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: Status of draft-ietf-atompub-format Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At 11:42 AM +0100 3/6/05, Julian Reschke wrote: >apparently, the new draft (06) wasn't finished in time for >submission before the meeting cutoff. Correct. >As this draft is the one that's supposed to be submitted for >publication (at least that's my understanding), wouldn't it make a >lot of sense to make the current edits available for review >(*before* it is committed after the end of the IETF meeting)? Your assumption is completely wrong. The WG will review the next draft before passing on to the IETF. The timing of the IETF meeting is completely inconsequential. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 6 13:31:13 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA08253 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:31:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j26IBLr5088679; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 10:11:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j26IBLWG088678; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 10:11:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j26IBJqM088626 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 10:11:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian.reschke@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 06 Mar 2005 18:11:05 -0000 Received: from pD95351F5.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO [192.168.0.4]) (217.83.81.245) by mail.gmx.net (mp028) with SMTP; 06 Mar 2005 19:11:05 +0100 X-Authenticated: #1915285 Message-ID: <422B4798.7090101@gmx.de> Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 19:10:32 +0100 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Hoffman CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Status of draft-ietf-atompub-format References: <422ADEB0.3050401@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Hoffman wrote: >> As this draft is the one that's supposed to be submitted for >> publication (at least that's my understanding), wouldn't it make a lot >> of sense to make the current edits available for review (*before* it >> is committed after the end of the IETF meeting)? > > > Your assumption is completely wrong. The WG will review the next draft > before passing on to the IETF. The timing of the IETF meeting is > completely inconsequential. OK, thanks for the clarification. Best regards, Julian -- bytes GmbH -- http://www.greenbytes.de -- tel:+492512807760 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 6 16:20:44 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA27000 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:20:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j26L0YR4001867; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:00:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j26L0Y9Q001866; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:00:34 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf00.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.79]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j26L0MYY001809 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:00:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.5.62.29]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C9D567585 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 22:00:04 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <422B6FBA.7060303@cegetel.net> Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 22:01:46 +0100 From: Thomas Broyer User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: fr, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Back on type=HTML, going a step farther... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi there, First, let's introduce myself: I'm a 24 year-old French programmer living in Dijon, France. Some day, I'd have liked to create my blog but got stuck by all these RSS thingies and API stuff... I'm back now to syndication as a user and programmer, and found Atom as the new unified standard for syndication and web service API. Reading the Atom spec (draft -05), one thing shocked me: what is this type=HTML for? Why would I need to use HTML in my feed? Well, to add some structure to my entry content, such as headers, divisions, lists, tables, text emphasis, etc. Sometime, I'll also need to add formatting and visual effects, but this shouldn't happen often: the goal of a feed is to be read outside my website, either in a Gtk/Win32/etc. app or integrated in another website. Thus formatting and visual effects should be reduced to the strict minimum for my feed to comply to the feed reader appearance. How would I insert HTML inside my feed? Err, an Atom feed (as well as an RSS feed) is an XML document, HTML has been rewritten in an XML syntax with XHTML, so I'll obviously use XHTML! So why is Atom using that escaped-HTML thing? Where does it come from? It comes from RSS0.92 and RSS2.0, which have relaxed there syntax to reflect a "common use" by bloggers. This use comes from the fact feeds were first mainly integrated in websites, someone might have wonder how to add formatting and/or structure and found that trick that worked for the feed readers existing at that time. Why does Atom use it? I think (correct me if I'm wrong) mainly to be adopted more easily by the existing CMS. Why I think this is a bad practice? 1. If I want to program an Atom reader/aggregator, I'll need to deal with the HTML tag soup, which may not be wellformed (and wellformedness in SGML is something so light...) nor valid, which mean I'll also need to re-implement the error handling algorithms already used in existing browsers. This should already have discouraged me to start programming, but I'm really motivated and will try to find a solution... (using Tidy to "correct" the HTML and transform it into XHTML that I can parse ; not that this means using another parser than the one I use to process the Atom feed/entry). Depending on the language/environment I have chosen, this might not even be possible: how do you use such thing in an XSLT transformation or other XForms app? If the Atom WG wants an interoperable format adopted by everyone, I'm not sure this is the good way... 2. If I want to integrate the HTML content in a website, my page structure and formatting could be totally broken if the HTML content of the feed is not wellformed or valid HTML: an unclosed element or too many closing tags, an un-wellformed tag that could "hide" my following tags, particularly if I don't use wellformed or valid HTML: tag soup inside tag soup can't always have a good taste... To prevent that sort of thing, the Atom spec would have to state that the escaped HTML content MUST be wellformed and valid HTML (wellformedness in SGML in not as strong as in XML and still might lead to weird stuff). However, even if the spec add such a rule, you can be sure most of the feeds won't follow it, simply because "it looks OK in the major readers/aggregators" (hey, remember the browser war which finally leave NS4 away?). It's much much easy to add welformedness constraints on XHTML which integrates well in XML, as this means the whole feed wouldn't be wellformed and couldn't be processed at all, than on "external content" like escaped HTML, even if they are encapsulated in the XML document. With schemas, it's even possible to add a validity constraint! What disturbs me in the spec is that the content of a Text Construct is considered "external data" (call it foreign data or foreign object if you want). In my opinion, the content of a Text Construct should be XML. The spec should add more constraints apart from *suggesting* not including metadata in the content and/or using XHTML to add structure and/or formatting, rather than DocBook, XSL-FO, SVG or else. If there is a need to allow inlining of external content, such as images, there should be a special element to use as a container inside the Text Construct, similar to the foreignObject of SVG or the instream-foreign-object of XSL-FO. This also means the @type and @mode attributes are discarded from the Text Construct element and added to the "Foreign Object Element" (let's rename them @type and @encoding, with @type being MIME media types (no more TEXT, HTML or XHTML special value). Someone the list suggested stripping the tags from the escaped-HTML content if the reader doesn't support HTML processing ; I would suggest using HTML Tidy to turn it into XHTML (if the read supports XHTML). Can't this be done by the feed generator instead? It's easy for blogging tools to produce XHTML from their WYSIWYG "richtext areas" to comply with an "XML-only Atom web service API"; it shouldn't be too hard for CMS tools to produce XHTML or plain text from legacy HTML content (either integrating HTML Tidy or a similar tool or stripping the HTML tags); it shouldn't be too hard either for CMS tools to integrate "migration tools" to transform legacy HTML content to XHTML (if the user wants too, otherwise the tool would produce plain text content in Atom feeds, for example); and it WILL be easy to program Atom readers/aggregators, because they won't have to deal with the HTML tag soup. The Atom format aims to be: - an XML application, so it should, in my opinion, use XHTML to add structure or formatting to the content, instead of HTML - "implemented by everybody" [1], so it should be easy to parse (hence being XML only, and therefore preventing the need for a second processing) and produce (when using the Atom API for editing, input will be the same as output; when dealing with legacy HTML content or using an input tool not producing XHTML, migration algorithm or tools can be used) - computer-friendly [2]: HTML is not computer-friendly, or at least far less than XHTML... If someone wants me to provide a clear "spec" for what I've told above, so that we can discuss it (rather than trolling), I'll create a Pace* on the wiki. [1] http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/RoadMap [2] http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/WhatIsAtomFor -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 6 17:01:30 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA00864 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 17:01:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j26LrX6x005788; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:53:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j26LrXtA005787; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:53:33 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j26LrWkc005753 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:53:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian.reschke@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 06 Mar 2005 21:53:17 -0000 Received: from pD95351F5.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO [192.168.0.4]) (217.83.81.245) by mail.gmx.net (mp007) with SMTP; 06 Mar 2005 22:53:17 +0100 X-Authenticated: #1915285 Message-ID: <422B7BB1.7090904@gmx.de> Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 22:52:49 +0100 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thomas Broyer CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Back on type=HTML, going a step farther... References: <422B6FBA.7060303@cegetel.net> In-Reply-To: <422B6FBA.7060303@cegetel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas Broyer wrote: > > Hi there, > > First, let's introduce myself: I'm a 24 year-old French programmer > living in Dijon, France. Some day, I'd have liked to create my blog but > got stuck by all these RSS thingies and API stuff... I'm back now to > syndication as a user and programmer, and found Atom as the new unified > standard for syndication and web service API. > > Reading the Atom spec (draft -05), one thing shocked me: what is this > type=HTML for? > > ... I agree with what you say, but I fear this topic has been discussed and dicussed again in the past with no result. For some reason, people seem to prefer a format where "bad" data (tag soup) is allowed, and the task to fix it is put onto the recipients rather than the creators. For me it's very obvious that this is the wrong approach -- if you can require the recipients to do that, you can also require the same responsibility from the producers. Anyway, I recently made a much more modest request that the spec should state that XHTML is preferred over HTML (because many recipients will not be willing to process tag soup, so in the best case formatting is lost). It seems that we can't even get a consensus for that, which is really disappointing considering the expectations I had 18 months ago :-( Best regards, Julian -- bytes GmbH -- http://www.greenbytes.de -- tel:+492512807760 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 6 17:50:24 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA00865 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 17:01:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j26LprGe005687; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:51:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j26LprRZ005686; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:51:53 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j26Lpq2D005649 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:51:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (hn-58-135.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.58.135]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j26LoQ24017963; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:50:34 GMT In-Reply-To: <422B6FBA.7060303@cegetel.net> References: <422B6FBA.7060303@cegetel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <724b5d0631b50d57739d09780976b027@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Graham Subject: Re: Back on type=HTML, going a step farther... Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:49:41 +0000 To: Thomas Broyer X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I totally agree that publishers are all willing to convert their content to well-formed XHTML for us. They're very generous people. Do you not remember last week when we all got sent free lollipops? Graham On Mar 6, 2005, at 9:01 pm, Thomas Broyer wrote: > > Hi there, > > First, let's introduce myself: I'm a 24 year-old French programmer > living in Dijon, France. Some day, I'd have liked to create my blog > but got stuck by all these RSS thingies and API stuff... I'm back now > to syndication as a user and programmer, and found Atom as the new > unified standard for syndication and web service API. > > Reading the Atom spec (draft -05), one thing shocked me: what is this > type=HTML for? > > Why would I need to use HTML in my feed? Well, to add some structure > to my entry content, such as headers, divisions, lists, tables, text > emphasis, etc. Sometime, I'll also need to add formatting and visual > effects, but this shouldn't happen often: the goal of a feed is to be > read outside my website, either in a Gtk/Win32/etc. app or integrated > in another website. Thus formatting and visual effects should be > reduced to the strict minimum for my feed to comply to the feed reader > appearance. > > How would I insert HTML inside my feed? Err, an Atom feed (as well as > an RSS feed) is an XML document, HTML has been rewritten in an XML > syntax with XHTML, so I'll obviously use XHTML! > > So why is Atom using that escaped-HTML thing? Where does it come from? > It comes from RSS0.92 and RSS2.0, which have relaxed there syntax to > reflect a "common use" by bloggers. This use comes from the fact feeds > were first mainly integrated in websites, someone might have wonder > how to add formatting and/or structure and found that trick that > worked for the feed readers existing at that time. > Why does Atom use it? I think (correct me if I'm wrong) mainly to be > adopted more easily by the existing CMS. > > Why I think this is a bad practice? > 1. If I want to program an Atom reader/aggregator, I'll need to deal > with the HTML tag soup, which may not be wellformed (and > wellformedness in SGML is something so light...) nor valid, which mean > I'll also need to re-implement the error handling algorithms already > used in existing browsers. This should already have discouraged me to > start programming, but I'm really motivated and will try to find a > solution... (using Tidy to "correct" the HTML and transform it into > XHTML that I can parse ; not that this means using another parser than > the one I use to process the Atom feed/entry). Depending on the > language/environment I have chosen, this might not even be possible: > how do you use such thing in an XSLT transformation or other XForms > app? > If the Atom WG wants an interoperable format adopted by everyone, I'm > not sure this is the good way... > 2. If I want to integrate the HTML content in a website, my page > structure and formatting could be totally broken if the HTML content > of the feed is not wellformed or valid HTML: an unclosed element or > too many closing tags, an un-wellformed tag that could "hide" my > following tags, particularly if I don't use wellformed or valid HTML: > tag soup inside tag soup can't always have a good taste... To prevent > that sort of thing, the Atom spec would have to state that the escaped > HTML content MUST be wellformed and valid HTML (wellformedness in SGML > in not as strong as in XML and still might lead to weird stuff). > However, even if the spec add such a rule, you can be sure most of the > feeds won't follow it, simply because "it looks OK in the major > readers/aggregators" (hey, remember the browser war which finally > leave NS4 away?). It's much much easy to add welformedness constraints > on XHTML which integrates well in XML, as this means the whole feed > wouldn't be wellformed and couldn't be processed at all, than on > "external content" like escaped HTML, even if they are encapsulated in > the XML document. With schemas, it's even possible to add a validity > constraint! > > What disturbs me in the spec is that the content of a Text Construct > is considered "external data" (call it foreign data or foreign object > if you want). > In my opinion, the content of a Text Construct should be XML. The spec > should add more constraints apart from *suggesting* not including > metadata in the content and/or using XHTML to add structure and/or > formatting, rather than DocBook, XSL-FO, SVG or else. > If there is a need to allow inlining of external content, such as > images, there should be a special element to use as a container inside > the Text Construct, similar to the foreignObject of SVG or the > instream-foreign-object of XSL-FO. > This also means the @type and @mode attributes are discarded from the > Text Construct element and added to the "Foreign Object Element" > (let's rename them @type and @encoding, with @type being MIME media > types (no more TEXT, HTML or XHTML special value). > > Someone the list suggested stripping the tags from the escaped-HTML > content if the reader doesn't support HTML processing ; I would > suggest using HTML Tidy to turn it into XHTML (if the read supports > XHTML). Can't this be done by the feed generator instead? > It's easy for blogging tools to produce XHTML from their WYSIWYG > "richtext areas" to comply with an "XML-only Atom web service API"; it > shouldn't be too hard for CMS tools to produce XHTML or plain text > from legacy HTML content (either integrating HTML Tidy or a similar > tool or stripping the HTML tags); it shouldn't be too hard either for > CMS tools to integrate "migration tools" to transform legacy HTML > content to XHTML (if the user wants too, otherwise the tool would > produce plain text content in Atom feeds, for example); and it WILL be > easy to program Atom readers/aggregators, because they won't have to > deal with the HTML tag soup. > > The Atom format aims to be: > - an XML application, so it should, in my opinion, use XHTML to add > structure or formatting to the content, instead of HTML > - "implemented by everybody" [1], so it should be easy to parse > (hence being XML only, and therefore preventing the need for a second > processing) and produce (when using the Atom API for editing, input > will be the same as output; when dealing with legacy HTML content or > using an input tool not producing XHTML, migration algorithm or tools > can be used) > - computer-friendly [2]: HTML is not computer-friendly, or at least > far less than XHTML... > > If someone wants me to provide a clear "spec" for what I've told > above, so that we can discuss it (rather than trolling), I'll create a > Pace* on the wiki. > > [1] http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/RoadMap > [2] http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/WhatIsAtomFor > > -- > Thomas Broyer > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 6 18:37:26 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA10217 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 18:37:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j26NJi15011367; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 15:19:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j26NJiYk011366; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 15:19:44 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf01.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.80]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j26NJgIX011353 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 15:19:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.5.62.29]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65A9F37B9F; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 00:19:28 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <422B903B.7050709@cegetel.net> Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 00:20:27 +0100 From: Thomas Broyer User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: fr, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Back on type=HTML, going a step farther... References: <422B6FBA.7060303@cegetel.net> <724b5d0631b50d57739d09780976b027@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <724b5d0631b50d57739d09780976b027@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote : > I totally agree that publishers are all willing to convert their content > to well-formed XHTML for us. That's not the only solution I (and probably others before me) proposed. Let's see below with some examples: First, content can be "converted" to plain text without formatting (in the case the HTML markup serves only formatting needs, not structural ones): tag:example.com,2005-03-06:PlainTextWithAlternateHTML 2005-03-06T21:38Z Plain text in Atom linking to an HTML version The generator (not the person who publishes but the program which creates the feed) converts the entry content to plain text and links to the original HTML version. >> In my opinion, the content of a Text Construct should be XML. The spec >> should add more constraints apart from *suggesting* not including >> metadata in the content and/or using XHTML to add structure and/or >> formatting, rather than DocBook, XSL-FO, SVG or else. Sorry I would have written "the spec shouldN'T add more constraints apart from..." >> If there is a need to allow inlining of external content, such as >> images, there should be a special element to use as a container inside >> the Text Construct, similar to the foreignObject of SVG or the >> instream-foreign-object of XSL-FO. >> This also means the @type and @mode attributes are discarded from the >> Text Construct element and added to the "Foreign Object Element" >> (let's rename them @type and @encoding, with @type being MIME media >> types (no more TEXT, HTML or XHTML special value). HTML can also be included as a "foreign object": tag:example.com,2005-03-06:HTMLAsForeignObject 2005-03-06T21:38Z HTML used as a foreign object <p>The generator (not the person who publishes but the program which creates the feed) converts the entry content to plain text in an <code>atom:fallback</code> element and inserts the original <acronym title="HyperText Markup Language">HTML<acronym> version in an <code>atom:foreignObject</code> element.</p> <p>If no <code>atom:fallback</code> is given, the entry <em>must<em> provide a <code>link rel="alternate"</code>. The generator (not the person who publishes but the program which creates the feed) converts the entry content to plain text in an atom:fallback element and inserts the original HTML version in an atom:foreignObject element. If no atom:fallback is given, the entry MUST provide a link rel="alternate". Using a foreignObject for HTML, the spec would not require (or strongly suggests (think about the SHOULD word in the spec)) readers/aggregators to support HTML. As you can see, dealing with legacy HTML when producing an Atom feed is not an issue. Dealing with HTML when consuming a feed IS. By allowing HTML inside a feed, you orient readers/aggregators developers to use an "HTML area" (integrated web browser) to render the entry content where they could use another "rich text area" (a "native Win32" rich text area, an SVG-based canvas, a "direct drawing" canvas) or convert the XHTML content into plain text (stripping "tags" is part of XML parsing: just parse the subtree without paying attention to elements, just keeping their text content; you could even skip SCRIPT and STYLE element content) or a "widget based" rendering. Embedding a web browser widget is not always possible: how will you render HTML text in the title of a window (if, for example, a reader gives you the ability to open an entry in a new window, same as what you can do when reading Usenet news groups), or in a "bubble tooltip" like those seen on Windows 20 or WindowsXP? >> It's easy for blogging tools to produce XHTML from their WYSIWYG >> "richtext areas" to comply with an "XML-only Atom web service API"; it >> shouldn't be too hard for CMS tools to produce XHTML or plain text >> from legacy HTML content (either integrating HTML Tidy or a similar >> tool or stripping the HTML tags); CMS tools will need an update to add an Atom output, this update may integrate some processing to transform HTML into plain text or XHTML; or it can just produce an atom:foreignObject and an atom:link rel="alternate", with no effort at all! >> and it WILL be easy to program Atom readers/aggregators, because they >> won't have to deal with the HTML tag soup. ...although I'm sure most readers/aggregators will use an embedded web browser to render then entry. BUT, this will not be enforced by the spec, and that's the point! It seems people here want to reinvent RSS with its tricks and drawbacks in the name of backwards compatibility instead of trying to produce a well-designed thing which also meets the backwards compatibility issue but in a clean approach! -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 6 18:46:41 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA12230 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 18:46:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j26NaalF012272; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 15:36:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j26NaaTM012271; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 15:36:36 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j26NaZs7012263 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 15:36:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j26NaWX8002330 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:36:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0ICY00HEHEWW0L@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2005 16:36:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.17] ([216.113.204.232]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0ICY00696EWV44@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2005 16:36:32 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 15:36:39 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Back on type=HTML, going a step farther... In-reply-to: <422B7BB1.7090904@gmx.de> To: Julian Reschke Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org, Thomas Broyer Message-id: <0a80098295d5aa057034e66eab82675a@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <422B6FBA.7060303@cegetel.net> <422B7BB1.7090904@gmx.de> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mar 6, 2005, at 1:52 PM, Julian Reschke wrote: > I agree with what you say, but I fear this topic has been discussed > and dicussed again in the past with no result. For some reason, people > seem to prefer a format where "bad" data (tag soup) is allowed, and > the task to fix it is put onto the recipients rather than the > creators. For me it's very obvious that this is the wrong approach -- > if you can require the recipients to do that, you can also require the > same responsibility from the producers. I agree also, but for some implementors, HTML is actually easier, if they are handing a chunk of bytes to an HTML rendering control, they'd rather not reconstruct the syntax from the infoset, they'd rather just take an opaque chunk of bytes. So we really don't have community consensus in favor of XHTML, even though it's obviously cleaner. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 6 20:16:56 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA19187 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:16:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j270uVaD017785; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:56:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j270uV1u017783; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:56:31 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j270uMMj017766 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:56:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12lcgfd.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.65.237] helo=franklinmint.fm) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1D86Xe-0001Ei-Af; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 00:56:14 +0000 Message-ID: <422BCF8D.6040906@franklinmint.fm> Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 19:50:37 -0800 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (X11/20040208) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Bray CC: Julian Reschke , atom-syntax@imc.org, Thomas Broyer Subject: Re: Back on type=HTML, going a step farther... References: <422B6FBA.7060303@cegetel.net> <422B7BB1.7090904@gmx.de> <0a80098295d5aa057034e66eab82675a@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <0a80098295d5aa057034e66eab82675a@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > > On Mar 6, 2005, at 1:52 PM, Julian Reschke wrote: > >> I agree with what you say, but I fear this topic has been discussed >> and dicussed again in the past with no result. For some reason, >> people seem to prefer a format where "bad" data (tag soup) is >> allowed, and the task to fix it is put onto the recipients rather >> than the creators. For me it's very obvious that this is the wrong >> approach -- if you can require the recipients to do that, you can >> also require the same responsibility from the producers. > > > I agree also, but for some implementors, HTML is actually easier, if > they are handing a chunk of bytes to an HTML rendering control, they'd > rather not reconstruct the syntax from the infoset, they'd rather just > take an opaque chunk of bytes. So we really don't have community > consensus in favor of XHTML, even though it's obviously cleaner. Agree w/ Tim. Also, HTML4 enjoys far better rendering support than XHTML does. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 7 02:42:07 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA11844 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 02:42:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j277NbkI080856; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 23:23:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j277NbcG080855; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 23:23:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j277NPLi080681 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 23:23:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian.reschke@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 07 Mar 2005 07:23:06 -0000 Received: from pD9E51321.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO [192.168.0.2]) (217.229.19.33) by mail.gmx.net (mp014) with SMTP; 07 Mar 2005 08:23:06 +0100 X-Authenticated: #1915285 Message-ID: <422C0155.2060408@gmx.de> Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 08:23:01 +0100 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Sayre CC: Tim Bray , atom-syntax@imc.org, Thomas Broyer Subject: Re: Back on type=HTML, going a step farther... References: <422B6FBA.7060303@cegetel.net> <422B7BB1.7090904@gmx.de> <0a80098295d5aa057034e66eab82675a@sun.com> <422BCF8D.6040906@franklinmint.fm> In-Reply-To: <422BCF8D.6040906@franklinmint.fm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Sayre wrote: > Agree w/ Tim. Also, HTML4 enjoys far better rendering support than XHTML > does. That's true (in IE), but that's just a serialization problem. Nobody said that recipients should emit that XHTML directly to HTML controls. Best regards, Julian -- bytes GmbH -- http://www.greenbytes.de -- tel:+492512807760 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 7 14:36:39 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA24493 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:36:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j27JKejc037132; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:20:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j27JKeSO037131; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:20:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j27JKZSa037119 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:20:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from duerst@w3.org) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 809434F05B; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:20:32 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20050308032656.072f9540@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 03:31:25 +0900 To: Tim Bray , Julian Reschke From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: Back on type=HTML, going a step farther... Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org, Thomas Broyer In-Reply-To: <0a80098295d5aa057034e66eab82675a@sun.com> References: <422B6FBA.7060303@cegetel.net> <422B7BB1.7090904@gmx.de> <0a80098295d5aa057034e66eab82675a@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 08:36 05/03/07, Tim Bray wrote: >I agree also, but for some implementors, HTML is actually easier, if they are handing a chunk of bytes to an HTML rendering control, they'd rather not reconstruct the syntax from the infoset, they'd rather just take an opaque chunk of bytes. So we really don't have community consensus in favor of XHTML, even though it's obviously cleaner. -Tim I really hope they don't take an opaque chunk of bytes, because if they do, they'll have no clue about the character encoding. Regards, Martin. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 7 14:36:40 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA24498 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:36:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j27JKk7w037136; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:20:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j27JKks6037135; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:20:46 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j27JKZt6037118 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:20:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from duerst@w3.org) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0FBE4F0FA; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:20:31 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20050308032514.072f9180@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 03:26:00 +0900 To: Julian Reschke , Thomas Broyer From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: Back on type=HTML, going a step farther... Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <422B7BB1.7090904@gmx.de> References: <422B6FBA.7060303@cegetel.net> <422B7BB1.7090904@gmx.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 06:52 05/03/07, Julian Reschke wrote: >Anyway, I recently made a much more modest request that the spec should state that XHTML is preferred over HTML (because many recipients will not be willing to process tag soup, so in the best case formatting is lost). It seems that we can't even get a consensus for that, which is really disappointing considering the expectations I had 18 months ago :-( I made an even more modest request, namely to put XHTML ahead of HTML in the spec. I still hope we can at least get consensus on that. Regards, Martin. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 7 15:48:27 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA02086 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:48:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j27KbrGO042406; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:37:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j27KbrdH042405; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:37:53 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j27Kbp2n042394 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:37:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian.reschke@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 07 Mar 2005 20:37:37 -0000 Received: from pD9E518AB.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO [192.168.0.2]) (217.229.24.171) by mail.gmx.net (mp020) with SMTP; 07 Mar 2005 21:37:37 +0100 X-Authenticated: #1915285 Message-ID: <422CBB8C.40202@gmx.de> Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 21:37:32 +0100 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Bray CC: Martin Duerst , atom-syntax@imc.org, Thomas Broyer Subject: Re: Back on type=HTML, going a step farther... References: <422B6FBA.7060303@cegetel.net> <422B7BB1.7090904@gmx.de> <0a80098295d5aa057034e66eab82675a@sun.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20050308032656.072f9540@localhost> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > On Mar 7, 2005, at 10:31 AM, Martin Duerst wrote: > >> >for some implementors, HTML is actually easier, if they are handing a >> chunk of bytes to an HTML rendering control, they'd rather not >> reconstruct the syntax from the infoset, they'd rather just take an >> opaque chunk of bytes. >> >> I really hope they don't take an opaque chunk of bytes, because if >> they do, they'll have no clue about the character encoding. > > > Not true; if you can parse the XML to find the then you > know the character encoding and can tell your HTML renderer. -Tim I think Martin was talking about the producer: if all he has is a chunk of *bytes*, there's no reliable way top put that into an HTML-typed text construct (you'll need characters, not bytes). Best regards, Julian -- bytes GmbH -- http://www.greenbytes.de -- tel:+492512807760 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 7 15:48:42 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA02155 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:48:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j27KVXU0042054; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:31:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j27KVX4X042053; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:31:33 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j27KVWRH042040 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:31:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j27KVTX8006549 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:31:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0ID000BYV10BRZ@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 13:31:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.4] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0ID00001510A8A@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 13:31:23 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 12:31:33 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Back on type=HTML, going a step farther... In-reply-to: <6.0.0.20.2.20050308032656.072f9540@localhost> To: Martin Duerst Cc: Julian Reschke , atom-syntax@imc.org, Thomas Broyer Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <422B6FBA.7060303@cegetel.net> <422B7BB1.7090904@gmx.de> <0a80098295d5aa057034e66eab82675a@sun.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20050308032656.072f9540@localhost> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mar 7, 2005, at 10:31 AM, Martin Duerst wrote: > >for some implementors, HTML is actually easier, if they are handing a > chunk of bytes to an HTML rendering control, they'd rather not > reconstruct the syntax from the infoset, they'd rather just take an > opaque chunk of bytes. > > I really hope they don't take an opaque chunk of bytes, because if > they do, they'll have no clue about the character encoding. Not true; if you can parse the XML to find the then you know the character encoding and can tell your HTML renderer. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 7 22:03:21 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11697 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:03:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j282h2H9065806; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:43:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j282h2E3065805; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:43:02 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j282gvws065797 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:42:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from duerst@w3.org) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C99AB4F028; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 21:42:44 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20050308112919.08c7cec0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 11:31:16 +0900 To: Julian Reschke , Tim Bray From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: Back on type=HTML, going a step farther... Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org, Thomas Broyer In-Reply-To: <422CBB8C.40202@gmx.de> References: <422B6FBA.7060303@cegetel.net> <422B7BB1.7090904@gmx.de> <0a80098295d5aa057034e66eab82675a@sun.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20050308032656.072f9540@localhost> <422CBB8C.40202@gmx.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 05:37 05/03/08, Julian Reschke wrote: > >Tim Bray wrote: >> On Mar 7, 2005, at 10:31 AM, Martin Duerst wrote: >> >>> >for some implementors, HTML is actually easier, if they are handing a chunk of bytes to an HTML rendering control, they'd rather not reconstruct the syntax from the infoset, they'd rather just take an opaque chunk of bytes. >>> >>> I really hope they don't take an opaque chunk of bytes, because if >>> they do, they'll have no clue about the character encoding. >> >> Not true; if you can parse the XML to find the then you know the character encoding and can tell your HTML renderer. -Tim > >I think Martin was talking about the producer: if all he has is a chunk of *bytes*, there's no reliable way top put that into an HTML-typed text construct (you'll need characters, not bytes). It works both ways. If all you get is a chunk of bytes, things won't work. Of course the Atom processor knows more, but Tim didn't say that it would pass that info on to the renderer. Regards, Martin. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 9 18:23:47 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA02800 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 18:23:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j29N3po7023670; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:03:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j29N3p0e023669; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:03:51 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf00.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.79]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j29N3h9I023640 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:03:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.5.49.78]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C97C671E5; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 00:03:25 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <422F80D8.2060108@cegetel.net> Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 00:03:52 +0100 From: Thomas Broyer User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: fr, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Reschke Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Back on type=HTML, going a step farther... References: <422B6FBA.7060303@cegetel.net> <422B7BB1.7090904@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <422B7BB1.7090904@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Julian Reschke wrote: > I agree with what you say, but I fear this topic has been discussed and > dicussed again in the past with no result. For some reason, people seem > to prefer a format where "bad" data (tag soup) is allowed, and the task > to fix it is put onto the recipients rather than the creators. For me > it's very obvious that this is the wrong approach -- if you can require > the recipients to do that, you can also require the same responsibility > from the producers. I'm afraid it is a "business" problem more than a technical one... Say you require publishing software to transform the content (either transform HTML to XHTML or strip tags, which not always acceptable (you should replace an IMG element by it's ALT attribute's value, tables and lists may produce non-understandable text when cells/items are concatenated, etc.)), they most likely won't do it. Either they'll produce not-wellformed Atom feeds, or they "just" won't implement Atom and keep their RSS feeds. In the same time, readers/aggregators will most likely read Atom feeds (as it will be easier, particularly if they don't use an embedded web browser component) in _addition_ to RSS feeds (for which they already deal with multiple versions and extension modules). There most likely won't exist Atom-only readers/aggregators, so if publishing software already produce RSS (in any widely supported flavor), they won't produce Atom. That's why Atom feeds must be easy to produce, and particularly from legacy HTML4 content. > Anyway, I recently made a much more modest request that the spec should > state that XHTML is preferred over HTML (because many recipients will > not be willing to process tag soup, so in the best case formatting is > lost). Data may also be lost, for example if IMG are not replaced by their ALT attribute's value. Content may become hard to read, for example if the content contains a table or a list. For lists, it could be leveraged putting commas at the end of each item:
  • first item,
  • second item
. And extra non-content text may appear, for example if the ALT attribute of an IMG is not used as expected or if the content contains SCRIPT or STYLE elements. Moreover, HTML4 has defined a NOSCRIPT element (there is no NOSTYLE element, because STYLE must appear in the HEAD in a valid HTML4 document). > It seems that we can't even get a consensus for that, which is > really disappointing considering the expectations I had 18 months ago :-( However, Atom is not only a feed syntax, it's also a publishing/editing protocol. This means publishing software implementing the Atom protocol will have to deal with this escaped-HTML too. And even if most publishing software treats HTML "just" as some "opaque text" that's eaten and regurgitated "as is", some weblogs aim to produce XHTML (b2evolution or WordPress), thus they will need to deal with escaped-HTML and transform it to XHTML. That's why a consensus is hard to find... I'll try to find an even-better solution than the one I proposed in my answer to Graham and post it here tomorrow (it's nearly midnight in France). Some solution that does not seem to bring back the multipart/alternative type... In a word, I'm deeply convinced that an all-XML syntax (i.e. including XHTML) is THE good way, but I must admit we must provide solutions to integrate escaped-HTML if we want Atom to be widely adopted (even RSS 1.0, and now RSS 1.1, have been extended to allow escaped-HTML...) -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 10 03:20:09 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA14922 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 03:20:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2A7wWXc003971; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 23:58:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2A7wWff003970; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 23:58:32 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf00.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.79]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2A7wIxK003774 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 23:58:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from cegetel.net (217-19-192-103.dti.cegetel.net [217.19.192.103]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 0F31A673DC; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:58:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from 82.127.77.43 (SquirrelMail authenticated user t.broyer@cegetel.net) by ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com with HTTP; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:58:07 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <2186.82.127.77.43.1110441487.squirrel@ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com> Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:58:07 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: Back on type=HTML, going a step farther... From: "Thomas Broyer" To: In-Reply-To: <422F80D8.2060108@cegetel.net> References: <422B6FBA.7060303@cegetel.net> <422B7BB1.7090904@gmx.de> <422F80D8.2060108@cegetel.net> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Cc: X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.10) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yesterday, I wrote: > However, Atom is not only a feed syntax, it's also a publishing/editing > protocol. This means publishing software implementing the Atom protocol > will have to deal with this escaped-HTML too. > And even if most publishing software treats HTML "just" as some "opaque > text" that's eaten and regurgitated "as is", some weblogs aim to produce > XHTML (b2evolution or WordPress), thus they will need to deal with > escaped-HTML and transform it to XHTML. I forgot to talk about publishing software that aim to produce not even HTML/RSS/Atom but also a PDF or RTF version or something else... They'll also need to parse escaped-HTML while it would have been so easier to just use XHTML (as easy as applying an XSLT stylesheet and rendering through Apache FOP for example). There are many other cases where escaped-HTML will be hard to deal with, at least harder than processing an XHTML document fragment, just because the receiving software don't treat Text Constructs and atom:content content as markup but only as "opaque text". And this is NOT interoperable! One thing we could do is requiring Atom to contain plain text or XHTML only when using the Atom protocol, whatever the receiving software do with it, whether it just takes the "innerXml" (Microsoft's way) of the Text Constructs and atom:content elements and treat it as "opaque text", or parse the XHTML to transform or validate it in any way. Escaped-HTML would be preserved in the Atom syntax only for "backwards" compatibility with RSS, thus only when "publishing" a feed. Or we could state type=HTML is not required to be supported by a user agent for it to be Atom-conformant. We would then need a way for user agents to tell "servers" (would it be an Atom composing/publishing software or a server publising a feed) whether or not they support type=HTML, and that would add a bit complexity. Or we would have to state that whenever escaped-HTML is provided, an alternate XHTML or plain text version is required (except for atom:content, which can be replaced by the atom:link when rendering an entry). Or we could just nuke the type=HTML and do it the RSS0.90-way, allowing escaped-HTML in a type=TEXT, but not requiring to be supported by the user agent (not even stripping tags). Or... -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Mar 12 23:58:37 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA09886 for ; Sat, 12 Mar 2005 23:58:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2D4dssF076285; Sat, 12 Mar 2005 20:39:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2D4dsWO076284; Sat, 12 Mar 2005 20:39:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2D4dqcv076204; Sat, 12 Mar 2005 20:39:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j2D4cnSE029179; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 04:38:49 GMT In-Reply-To: References: <422ADEB0.3050401@gmx.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <38a22b972ae3c994daed90e6110e8d5b@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Julian Reschke , Atom Syntax From: Graham Subject: Re: Status of draft-ietf-atompub-format Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 04:38:47 +0000 To: Paul Hoffman X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 6 Mar 2005, at 5:15 pm, Paul Hoffman wrote: > Your assumption is completely wrong. The WG will review the next draft > before passing on to the IETF. The timing of the IETF meeting is > completely inconsequential. Can you fill us in on what's happening with the new draft, and what are future timetable looks like? Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 13 13:35:12 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA00957 for ; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 13:35:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2DIGADM062949; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:16:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2DIGAt2062948; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:16:10 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2DIFwHt062930; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:16:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0cdfl9t.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.213.61] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DAXd2-0007Fj-Dn; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 18:15:52 +0000 Message-ID: <4234836B.1080605@franklinmint.fm> Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 13:16:11 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham CC: Paul Hoffman , Julian Reschke , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Status of draft-ietf-atompub-format References: <422ADEB0.3050401@gmx.de> <38a22b972ae3c994daed90e6110e8d5b@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <38a22b972ae3c994daed90e6110e8d5b@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > > On 6 Mar 2005, at 5:15 pm, Paul Hoffman wrote: > >> Your assumption is completely wrong. The WG will review the next draft >> before passing on to the IETF. The timing of the IETF meeting is >> completely inconsequential. > > > Can you fill us in on what's happening with the new draft, and what are > future timetable looks like? The draft has been submitted. We should be getting an I-D Announce message soon. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 14 10:43:51 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA14327 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:43:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2EFPlak079188; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 07:25:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2EFPk5K079187; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 07:25:46 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2EFPgnX079170 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 07:25:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so914721rns for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 07:25:02 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=AT8jKydKdbjhRXRxKD5y/72TMeAp0iBdnp7shXs4euJn4lb3cztaoBZ3v/VGYOOisERaT0ZjCw2GDe2GtnUN7Q+MSciybBRS/JiTmKWqtphmZ/zhghqQvJj5x5q7CYIDA06Emjg4bhBqL3QiLvYMVXWpxSG3PMGIUUpNz7o4gfI= Received: by 10.38.179.2 with SMTP id b2mr1105892rnf; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 12:38:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.25 with HTTP; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 12:38:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd050313123816140e17@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 21:38:21 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: bloggerDev@googlegroups.com Subject: Blogger Atom API Cc: atom-protocol@imc.org, atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <1110704473.460157.262010@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 06:53:54 -0800, Eric Case wrote: > Atom docs are fresh off the grill: > http://code.blogspot.com/archives/atom-docs.html That's marvellous, thanks Eric. First impressions are good - lots of verbs! Given that the spec is still in development (as the Atom Publishing Protocol), I was wondering if the service was written against any specific draft of the spec, and/or whether there had been some improvisation on the theme. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 14 11:26:38 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA20046 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:26:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2EG73f0082473; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 08:07:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2EG72PE082472; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 08:07:02 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from faceman.dreamhost.com (postfix@faceman.dreamhost.com [205.196.210.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2EG6wEF082464 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 08:07:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from arve@virtuelvis.com) Received: from iluvatar (ti132110a080-15428.bb.online.no [85.165.188.68]) by faceman.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7CBC111D97 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 08:06:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 17:06:49 +0100 From: "Arve Bersvendsen" To: Atom-syntax Subject: Re: Blogger Atom API References: <1110704473.460157.262010@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> <1f2ed5cd050313123816140e17@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd050313123816140e17@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Opera M2(BETA3)/8.0 (Win32, build 7521) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 06:53:54 -0800, Eric Case wrote: > > Atom docs are fresh off the grill: > http://code.blogspot.com/archives/atom-docs.html One thing that bugs me: Since when does Atom use XML 1.1? -- Arve Bersvendsen http://virtuelvis.com/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 14 16:13:41 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA22626 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:13:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2EKqwB3000778; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:52:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2EKqwMJ000777; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:52:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j2EKqrGo000752 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:52:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian.reschke@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 14 Mar 2005 20:52:38 -0000 Received: from pD95358CD.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO [192.168.0.3]) (217.83.88.205) by mail.gmx.net (mp022) with SMTP; 14 Mar 2005 21:52:38 +0100 X-Authenticated: #1915285 Message-ID: <4235F98A.1040105@gmx.de> Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:52:26 +0100 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Sayre CC: Graham , Paul Hoffman , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Status of draft-ietf-atompub-format References: <422ADEB0.3050401@gmx.de> <38a22b972ae3c994daed90e6110e8d5b@mac.com> <4234836B.1080605@franklinmint.fm> In-Reply-To: <4234836B.1080605@franklinmint.fm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Sayre wrote: > > Graham wrote: > >> >> On 6 Mar 2005, at 5:15 pm, Paul Hoffman wrote: >> >>> Your assumption is completely wrong. The WG will review the next >>> draft before passing on to the IETF. The timing of the IETF meeting >>> is completely inconsequential. >> >> >> >> Can you fill us in on what's happening with the new draft, and what >> are future timetable looks like? > > > The draft has been submitted. We should be getting an I-D Announce > message soon. OK, here are some preliminary comments based on what's available from : - the RNC grammar is still unusable in that TRANG rejects the Schematron extensions; what do I need in addition to TRANG/JING to actually use that file? - after removing the Schematron extensions: the RNC still is broken (missing double quotes after '"text') - (after fixing that as well): atomPlainTextConstruct and atomXHTMLTextConstruct still use uppercased type names (in the collected RNC) - the current RNC doesn't check for xhtml:div content below XHTML text constructs. I've updated my experimental atom-06 feed at . Feedback appreciated... Best regards, Julian From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 14 19:51:32 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA13482 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:51:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2F0VxON015421; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:31:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2F0Vxd5015420; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:31:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2F0Vi8Z015392; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:31:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0cdfl9t.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.213.61] helo=[192.168.0.8]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DAzy7-0005YU-MY; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 00:31:31 +0000 Message-ID: <42362CDA.1080201@franklinmint.fm> Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:31:22 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Reschke CC: Graham , Paul Hoffman , Atom Syntax , Norman Walsh Subject: Re: Status of draft-ietf-atompub-format References: <422ADEB0.3050401@gmx.de> <38a22b972ae3c994daed90e6110e8d5b@mac.com> <4234836B.1080605@franklinmint.fm> <4235F98A.1040105@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <4235F98A.1040105@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Julian Reschke wrote: > > OK, here are some preliminary comments based on what's available from > : > Julian, you "hacker"! You'll never get into Harvard Business School now. > - the RNC grammar is still unusable in that TRANG rejects the Schematron > extensions; what do I need in addition to TRANG/JING to actually use > that file? Norm has mentioned simplifying the schema in the past. I'll defer to him here. > > - after removing the Schematron extensions: the RNC still is broken > (missing double quotes after '"text') > > - (after fixing that as well): atomPlainTextConstruct and > atomXHTMLTextConstruct still use uppercased type names (in the collected > RNC) > > - the current RNC doesn't check for xhtml:div content below XHTML text > constructs. > These mistakes are mine. I promise to check the schema after every edit next time. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 16 08:12:13 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA17112 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:12:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2GD2xwB061019; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 05:02:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2GD2xUT061018; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 05:02:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2GD2vl7060979 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 05:02:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0cdfl1u.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.212.62] helo=[192.168.1.100]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DBYAp-0002NX-DY for atom-syntax@imc.org; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:02:55 +0000 Message-ID: <42382E92.90603@franklinmint.fm> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:03:14 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom-Syntax Subject: draft-ietf-atompub-format-06 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No I-D announce email yet, for some reason. hmmm. The editors' read of consensus differed from the chairs' on PaceHeadless and PaceExtensionConstruct. The chairs agree that both reads are reasonable, and are ok with this divergence. HTML http://atompub.org/2005/03/12/draft-ietf-atompub-format-06.html TXT http://ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-format-06.txt DIFF http://atompub.org/2005/03/12/draft-ietf-atompub-format-06-from-5.diff.html Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 16 10:32:53 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA01517 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:32:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2GFKpq2078376; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:20:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2GFKpId078375; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:20:51 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2GFKnCp078363 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:20:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j2GFI6sv001751; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:18:17 GMT In-Reply-To: <42382E92.90603@franklinmint.fm> References: <42382E92.90603@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <825c61384d6d9d43c97a05b2ee511112@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Atom-Syntax From: Graham Subject: Re: draft-ietf-atompub-format-06 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:17:23 +0000 To: Robert Sayre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 16 Mar 2005, at 1:03 pm, Robert Sayre wrote: > PaceHeadless. The chairs agree that both reads are reasonable, and are > ok with this divergence. The working group aren't. Revert PaceHeadless immediately. Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 16 10:36:28 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA01902 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:36:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2GFTEXg078997; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:29:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2GFTEHc078996; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:29:14 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2GFTEN6078990 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:29:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 14057 invoked by uid 17064); 16 Mar 2005 15:29:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.5]) ([83.112.131.119]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 16 Mar 2005 15:29:14 -0000 In-Reply-To: <825c61384d6d9d43c97a05b2ee511112@mac.com> References: <42382E92.90603@franklinmint.fm> <825c61384d6d9d43c97a05b2ee511112@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <6a7b564a6f8f3a8c09f036b2b66b8a11@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Graham From: Henry Story Subject: Re: draft-ietf-atompub-format-06 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:29:12 +0100 To: Atom Syntax X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What's the problem exactly? The spec looks quite nice to me on the whole. ((Perfection would come with an OWL semantics as shown by RSS1.1, but otherwise it looks ok.)) Henry Story On 16 Mar 2005, at 16:17, Graham wrote: > > On 16 Mar 2005, at 1:03 pm, Robert Sayre wrote: > >> PaceHeadless. The chairs agree that both reads are reasonable, and >> are ok with this divergence. > > The working group aren't. Revert PaceHeadless immediately. > > Graham > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 16 11:06:36 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA05014 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 11:06:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2GFxO3i081244; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:59:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2GFxObk081243; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:59:24 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2GFxOFC081235 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:59:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-247-97.client.comcast.net[67.169.247.97]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <2005031615591801500426h9e>; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:59:18 +0000 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:59:16 -0700 Subject: Re: draft-ietf-atompub-format-06 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <42382E92.90603@franklinmint.fm> Message-Id: <597ED2CA-9634-11D9-8236-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 4.1.1 "The "atom:feed" element is the document (i.e., top-level) element of an Atom Feed Document, acting as a container for metadata and data associated with the feed. Its element children consist of one or more metadata elements followed by zero or more atom:entry child elements." A little nit-picky, but it looks like a minimum of three metadata elements are required: link, title and updated. 4.2.8 The "atom:image" Element There was some support for the idea of changing the name of atom:image to atom:logo. Is there any opposition to that? From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 16 12:24:28 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA12605 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:24:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2GHDww2086206; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:13:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2GHDwZP086205; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:13:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2GHDv9b086199 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:13:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from p69-100.acedsl.com ([66.114.69.100] helo=[192.168.1.29]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DBc5i-0005rm-EP; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:13:54 +0000 Message-ID: <42386947.5010107@franklinmint.fm> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:13:43 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham CC: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: draft-ietf-atompub-format-06 References: <42382E92.90603@franklinmint.fm> <825c61384d6d9d43c97a05b2ee511112@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <825c61384d6d9d43c97a05b2ee511112@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > > On 16 Mar 2005, at 1:03 pm, Robert Sayre wrote: > >> PaceHeadless. The chairs agree that both reads are reasonable, and are >> ok with this divergence. > > > The working group aren't. Revert PaceHeadless immediately. Graham, I have no desire to contradict the decisions of this WG. I acknowledge that there were negative opinions expressed about PaceHeadless. However, none of the negative opinions other than your own contained technical criticism. Even yours was pretty vague [0,1,2]. Comments in favor were generally thoughtful and based on implementation experience. All of the objections concerned the atom:head text rather than extensibility. Rejecting the extensibility text because of editorial comments about atom:head is not appropriate. The extensions text in atom:head is nearly identical to PaceExtensionConstruct, which Tim didn't like because of RDF language, but everyone else approved. The current text has no RDF language. Arguing process is not productive here. Finding out the WG's real view is. The editors will gladly revert, change, delete, add etc etc. The group needs to tell us what to do. Robert Sayre [0] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg13178.html [1] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg13415.html [2] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg13458.html From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 16 12:28:29 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA12787 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:28:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2GHIRHQ087034; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:18:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2GHIRUx087033; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:18:27 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2GHIQom087024 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:18:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tbray@textuality.com) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2GHIQX8012086 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:18:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe7 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IDG006WBG2Q0I@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:18:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.17] ([216.113.204.232]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IDG005N4G2PUK@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:18:26 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:18:31 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: End-game progress To: "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT This is on behalf of Paul and myself as co-chairs. Greetings again. The end is in sight. As Robert posted earlier, the -06 draft is now out, but not yet posted to this list by the IETF. However we expect that to happen today (it's already in the Internet Draft archive). As he also pointed out, there was some divergence between the editor's interpretation of the last round of debate the chairs' view of what was WG consensus. This happens in any standards body; at least in the IETF, it also gets fixed. [Tim's take: I really do think that Rob and Mark mis-read the WG. Having said that, and having done a careful read on the draft, I don't think the difference is of any real significance. If I'd built software to process -05, adapting it for -06 would be like ten minutes' work; and I can't imagine any features that could be built for one rather than for the other. On the other hand, if a substantial number of WG members say "No, put it back" (as Graham already has) and almost nobody says "Yes, ship it", then we'll put it back.] So, after you have read the text in the current draft, we want to hear from the WG as to whether or not the draft has rough consensus support and, if not, how to fix it. One week should be sufficient to determine this. Simultaneously with this, we want to hear any editorial changes for in the draft. That should also come within a week. When suggesting editorial changes, it's helpful to say so, maybe even in the Subject line. Please note that we are not asking for any design changes at this point. If there is something that is technically broken, bring it up; if there is something that works but you would prefer something different, don't bring it up. If you're not sure which side your thought falls on, send a note to Paul and I and we'll help. The plan is that, in about a week, Robert and Mark will rev the document with any changes from the above and turn in -07. At that point, we'll ask Scott Hollenbeck to consider this for IETF-wide last call. He will then read the -07 draft. If it seems OK to him, he'll do the paperwork with the IETF; if not, he'll come back to us with his comments. Forward motion happens! From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 16 16:01:42 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA11316 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:01:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2GKcaZK008042; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:38:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2GKcaCE008040; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:38:36 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2GKcZC6008033 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:38:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dinaras@cnri.reston.va.us) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA05544; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:38:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200503162038.PAA05544@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-atompub-format-06.txt Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:38:33 -0500 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Atom Publishing Format and Protocol Working Group of the IETF. Title : The Atom Syndication Format Author(s) : M. Nottingham, R. Sayre Filename : draft-ietf-atompub-format-06.txt Pages : 48 Date : 2005-3-15 This document specifies Atom, an XML-based Web content and metadata syndication format. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-format-06.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-atompub-format-06.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-format-06.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-3-16160855.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-format-06.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-atompub-format-06.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-3-16160855.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 16 16:05:45 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA13021 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:05:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2GKpFjM009411; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:51:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2GKpFAR009410; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:51:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from krede.interpost.no ([139.117.101.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2GKpEDo009379 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:51:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org) Received: from krede.interpost.no (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by antivirus2.interpost.no (Postfix) with SMTP id 3EB6F21EF45; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:51:06 +0100 (CET) Received: by krede.interpost.no (Postfix, from userid 89) id D69C121EF2F; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:50:11 +0100 (CET) Received: from krede.interpost.no (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by antivirus2.interpost.no (Postfix) with SMTP id 6145E21EF3B for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:49:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from pir.os.ergo.no (unknown [139.117.101.22]) by krede.interpost.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C67921EF2F for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:49:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from antispam.interpost.no (ulvefisk.interpost.no [139.117.1.84]) by pir.os.ergo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D6A294104 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:49:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by antispam.interpost.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id D209F4C113 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:49:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DBfHq-0004zu-C1; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:38:38 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DBfHn-0004zY-Fk for i-d-announce@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:38:35 -0500 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA05544; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:38:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200503162038.PAA05544@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:38:33 -0500 Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: {Dangerous Content?} I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-atompub-format-06.txt X-BeenThere: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org List-Id: i-d-announce.ietf.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Ergo-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-Ergo-MailScanner: Found to be infected X-MailScanner-From: i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --NextPart Warning: This message has had one or more attachments removed Warning: (not named). Warning: Please read the "Ergo-Attachment-Warning.txt" attachment(s) for more information. A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Atom Publishing Format and Protocol Working Group of the IETF. Title : The Atom Syndication Format Author(s) : M. Nottingham, R. Sayre Filename : draft-ietf-atompub-format-06.txt Pages : 48 Date : 2005-3-15 This document specifies Atom, an XML-based Web content and metadata syndication format. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-format-06.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-atompub-format-06.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-format-06.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; name="Ergo-Attachment-Warning.txt" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Ergo-Attachment-Warning.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is a message from the MailScanner E-Mail Virus Protection Service ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The original e-mail attachment "not named" was believed to be infected by a virus and has been replaced by this warning message. If you wish to receive a copy of the *infected* attachment, please e-mail helpdesk and include the whole of this message in your request. Alternatively, you can call them, with the contents of this message to hand when you call. 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Alternatively, you can call them, with the contents of this message to hand when you call. At Wed Mar 16 21:49:52 2005 the virus scanner said: External message bodies cannot be scanned and are removed Note to Help Desk: Look on the Ergo MailScanner in /var/spool/MailScanner/q= uarantine/20050316 (message 0D6A294104.CA417). --=20 Postmaster ErgoGroup www.ergo.no MailScanner thanks transtec Computers for their support --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce --NextPart-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 16 18:05:15 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA10012 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 18:05:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2GMwf6I022428; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:58:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2GMwffa022427; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:58:41 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta10-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (smtpout18.mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.18]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2GMwe2O022406 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:58:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta10-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050316225835.JTRN12495.mta10-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com> for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:58:35 +0000 Received: from cpc3-stke1-5-0-cust172.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([82.11.128.172]) by aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050316225835.ITFJ1187.aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@cpc3-stke1-5-0-cust172.bagu.cable.ntl.com> for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:58:35 +0000 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:57:41 +0000 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.9.6 Return (pre-beta)) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1443457290.20050316225741@djpowell.net> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Attributes on the xhtml:div wrapper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think that there is a risk of interoperability problems if we don't state which attributes are allowed on the xhtml:div wrapper. As the xhtml:div wrapper is not part of the content: is it allowed to contain XHTML attributes such as class and style? I assume that if these attributes are allowed, then they should be ignored by renderers, and the attributed xhtml:div should be treated as an un-attributed one. However, as xml:lang definitions made outside the content construct apply to the XHTML, I would assume that xml:lang attributes made on the xhtml:div itself, should apply to the XHTML. If I've got this right, then I think that these implied rules are rather surprising. Should we: a) keep the current text. b) disallow attributes on the xhtml:div wrapper. c) disallow XHTML attributes on the xhtml:div wrapper, but allow xml:lang. I vote for b). Allowing xml:lang on xhtml:div is unnecessary because it can be placed on the content construct itself with the same effect. Allowing attributes on a wrapper element which most people would otherwise just throw away adds unnecessary complexity and surprise. -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 16 18:08:30 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA10449 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 18:08:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2GMwb3l022417; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:58:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2GMwbni022416; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:58:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta10-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (smtpout18.mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.18]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2GMwZsV022402 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:58:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta10-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050316225825.JSVJ12495.mta10-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com> for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:58:25 +0000 Received: from cpc3-stke1-5-0-cust172.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([82.11.128.172]) by aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050316225825.ISWK1187.aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@cpc3-stke1-5-0-cust172.bagu.cable.ntl.com> for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:58:25 +0000 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:42:34 +0000 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.9.6 Return (pre-beta)) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <307557521.20050316224234@djpowell.net> To: Atom-Syntax Subject: xml:base and xml:lang In-Reply-To: <42382E92.90603@franklinmint.fm> References: <42382E92.90603@franklinmint.fm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j2GMwbsV022411 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From draft-06:Atom-Syntax > Any element in an Atom Document MAY have an xml:base attribute. > Any element in an Atom Document MAY have an xml:lang attribute Not all XHTML elements can legally carry an xml:lang attribute; and no XHTML elements can legally carry an xml:base attribute. Is this obvious or do we need to make it clear that the statements above do not override the rules of XHTML? -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 16 19:32:14 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA17770 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:32:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2H0PS6c030799; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:25:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2H0PSVD030798; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:25:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2H0PQJI030791 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:25:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2H0PQX8016815 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:25:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IDG006TSZUBMP@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:25:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.14] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IDG0070CZUBOK@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:25:23 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:25:29 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: xml:base and xml:lang In-reply-to: <307557521.20050316224234@djpowell.net> To: David Powell Cc: Atom-Syntax Message-id: <27a7a912dea82baa7e54b9e2c2c015d3@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <42382E92.90603@franklinmint.fm> <307557521.20050316224234@djpowell.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mar 16, 2005, at 2:42 PM, David Powell wrote: >> Any element in an Atom Document MAY have an xml:base attribute. > >> Any element in an Atom Document MAY have an xml:lang attribute > > Not all XHTML elements can legally carry an xml:lang attribute; and no > XHTML elements can legally carry an xml:base attribute. > > Is this obvious or do we need to make it clear that the statements > above do not override the rules of XHTML? Or maybe what we're really saying is that any *Atom* element may have an xml:base/xml:lang? -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 16 19:39:42 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA18439 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:39:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2H0WttY031496; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:32:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2H0WtS6031495; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:32:55 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta09-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (smtpout17.mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.17]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2H0Wsi3031480 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:32:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta09-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050317003248.CWOA21280.mta09-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com>; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:32:48 +0000 Received: from cpc3-stke1-5-0-cust172.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([82.11.128.172]) by aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050317003248.BEQE1279.aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@cpc3-stke1-5-0-cust172.bagu.cable.ntl.com>; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:32:48 +0000 Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:32:47 +0000 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.9.6 Return (pre-beta)) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <181710220.20050317003247@djpowell.net> To: Tim Bray CC: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: xml:base and xml:lang In-Reply-To: <27a7a912dea82baa7e54b9e2c2c015d3@sun.com> References: <42382E92.90603@franklinmint.fm> <307557521.20050316224234@djpowell.net> <27a7a912dea82baa7e54b9e2c2c015d3@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thursday, March 17, 2005, 12:25:29 AM, Tim Bray wrote: > On Mar 16, 2005, at 2:42 PM, David Powell wrote: >>> Any element in an Atom Document MAY have an xml:base attribute. >> >>> Any element in an Atom Document MAY have an xml:lang attribute >> >> Not all XHTML elements can legally carry an xml:lang attribute; and no >> XHTML elements can legally carry an xml:base attribute. >> >> Is this obvious or do we need to make it clear that the statements >> above do not override the rules of XHTML? > Or maybe what we're really saying is that any *Atom* element may have > an xml:base/xml:lang? -Tim Yes, that sounds right. -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 16 19:41:53 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA18487 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:41:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2H0bNUj032084; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:37:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2H0bNwI032083; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:37:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.195]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2H0bMTu032077 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:37:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id g11so316347rne for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:37:22 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=I7jU+B8flnu+9pBiiscxgf7O73xwkywX08gytstvjGZ7dO6wtXp/Pu9UfImtvTBdRcKeo3NWRrNc4oWGLZse11hm7MZRHguHlmSPMH/s+dHRJfgVsoKnVpxBnrXj+kapCrpRivXqYPJGfmGZemeMyuDuHAC77oG0q1eABZ4V13Y= Received: by 10.38.207.18 with SMTP id e18mr828677rng; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:37:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.151.18 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:37:22 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3f1451f50503161637f91be0b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:37:22 -0500 From: Joe Gregorio Reply-To: Joe Gregorio To: Tim Bray Subject: Re: xml:base and xml:lang Cc: David Powell , Atom-Syntax In-Reply-To: <27a7a912dea82baa7e54b9e2c2c015d3@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <42382E92.90603@franklinmint.fm> <307557521.20050316224234@djpowell.net> <27a7a912dea82baa7e54b9e2c2c015d3@sun.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:25:29 -0800, Tim Bray wrote: > Or maybe what we're really saying is that any *Atom* element may have > an xml:base/xml:lang? -Tim +1 That's how I initially read it, but I see how the current wording could be read to allow xml:base/xml:lang on any element regardless of the namespace the element sits in. -joe -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 00:54:58 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA15868 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:54:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2H5knE5061644; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:46:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2H5knAA061643; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:46:49 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2H5kmZM061630 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:46:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-247-97.client.comcast.net[67.169.247.97]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <2005031705464101200ea071e>; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 05:46:41 +0000 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:46:39 -0700 Subject: Re: Attributes on the xhtml:div wrapper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <1443457290.20050316225741@djpowell.net> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday, March 16, 2005, at 03:57 PM, David Powell wrote: > Should we: > > a) keep the current text. > > b) disallow attributes on the xhtml:div wrapper. > > c) disallow XHTML attributes on the xhtml:div wrapper, but > allow xml:lang. > > > I vote for b). > > Allowing xml:lang on xhtml:div is unnecessary because it can be placed > on the content construct itself with the same effect. Allowing > attributes on a wrapper element which most people would otherwise just > throw away adds unnecessary complexity and surprise. > I imagine this is what you meant by b), but just to be sure, I'd vote for d) disallow attributes other than namespace declarations on the xhtml:div wrapper. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 02:20:48 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA11424 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 02:20:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2H7Cq9t098896; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 23:12:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2H7CqdN098895; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 23:12:52 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2H7CpQE098877 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 23:12:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from duerst@w3.org) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16C284EF5B; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 02:12:49 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20050317153332.0961a3b0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:38:18 +0900 To: Antone Roundy , atom-syntax@imc.org From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: Attributes on the xhtml:div wrapper In-Reply-To: References: <1443457290.20050316225741@djpowell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mildly put, I was never a big fan of the xhtml:div wrapper. But if xml:lang is disallowed on the xhtml:div wrapper, this makes even less sense to me. If Atom processors can handle (i.e. correctly inherit) xml:lang from atom: elements into the xhtml: elements as they are required to, I don't see why they wouldn't be able to handle xml:lang on xhtml:div. Regards, Martin. At 14:46 05/03/17, Antone Roundy wrote: > >On Wednesday, March 16, 2005, at 03:57 PM, David Powell wrote: >> Should we: >> >> a) keep the current text. >> >> b) disallow attributes on the xhtml:div wrapper. >> >> c) disallow XHTML attributes on the xhtml:div wrapper, but >> allow xml:lang. >> >> >> I vote for b). >> >> Allowing xml:lang on xhtml:div is unnecessary because it can be placed on the content construct itself with the same effect. Allowing attributes on a wrapper element which most people would otherwise just throw away adds unnecessary complexity and surprise. >> >I imagine this is what you meant by b), but just to be sure, I'd vote for d) disallow attributes other than namespace declarations on the xhtml:div wrapper. > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 04:17:30 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA28567 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 04:17:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2H99BSR044400; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 01:09:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2H99BTN044399; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 01:09:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta10-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (smtpout18.mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.18]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2H99AUg044354 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 01:09:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta10-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050317090905.BWNC12495.mta10-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com>; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:09:05 +0000 Received: from cpc3-stke1-5-0-cust172.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([82.11.128.172]) by aamta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050317090904.IZHI769.aamta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@cpc3-stke1-5-0-cust172.bagu.cable.ntl.com>; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:09:04 +0000 Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:09:04 +0000 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.9.7 Return (pre-beta)) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <701793274.20050317090904@djpowell.net> To: Antone Roundy CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Attributes on the xhtml:div wrapper In-Reply-To: References: <1443457290.20050316225741@djpowell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thursday, March 17, 2005, 5:46:39 AM, Antone Roundy wrote: >> b) disallow attributes on the xhtml:div wrapper. ... > I imagine this is what you meant by b), but just to be sure, I'd vote > for d) disallow attributes other than namespace declarations on the > xhtml:div wrapper. Yes, namespace attributes should be allowed everywhere. XML parsers handle namespace attributes automatically so there shouldn't be any problems with that. -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 04:17:52 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA28731 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 04:17:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2H98b4S044209; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 01:08:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2H98bUk044208; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 01:08:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (smtpout15.mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2H98ZcM044158 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 01:08:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050317090829.BPGT22922.mta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com>; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:08:29 +0000 Received: from cpc3-stke1-5-0-cust172.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([82.11.128.172]) by aamta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050317090829.GETE1844.aamta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@cpc3-stke1-5-0-cust172.bagu.cable.ntl.com>; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:08:29 +0000 Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:08:28 +0000 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.9.7 Return (pre-beta)) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <378319864.20050317090828@djpowell.net> To: Martin Duerst CC: Antone Roundy , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Attributes on the xhtml:div wrapper In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20050317153332.0961a3b0@localhost> References: <1443457290.20050316225741@djpowell.net> <6.0.0.20.2.20050317153332.0961a3b0@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thursday, March 17, 2005, 6:38:18 AM, you wrote: > Mildly put, I was never a big fan of the xhtml:div wrapper. > But if xml:lang is disallowed on the xhtml:div wrapper, this > makes even less sense to me. If Atom processors can handle > (i.e. correctly inherit) xml:lang from atom: elements into > the xhtml: elements as they are required to, I don't see > why they wouldn't be able to handle xml:lang on xhtml:div. > Regards, Martin. This issue interacts with the issue in my other thread "xml:base and xml:lang". If we change the spec to say something like: > Any atom-namespaced element in the Atom Document MAY have an > xml:base attribute. > > Any atom-namespaced element in an Atom Document MAY have an xml:lang > attribute Then the implication is that we are saying nothing about what attributes are allowed on XHTML-namespaced elements, and that is left for XHTML to define. But, I think that we should disallow xhtml attributes on the xhtml:div, otherwise implementors that copy the xhtml:div directly through to the renderer will be incorrect. So we either say: 1) atom:* elements MAY have xml:base and xml:lang attributes. The xhtml:div wrapper MUST NOT contain any attribute other than namespace attributes. or: 2) atom:* elements MAY have xml:base and xml:lang attributes. The xhtml:div wrapper MUST NOT contain any attribute other than namespace attributes and xml:lang. -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 05:32:56 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA06081 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 05:32:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HALSRa069691; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 02:21:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2HALSVI069690; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 02:21:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf00.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.79]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HALRvw069645 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 02:21:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from cegetel.net (217-19-192-102.dti.cegetel.net [217.19.192.102]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with SMTP id A9C2B67322; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:21:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from 82.127.77.43 (SquirrelMail authenticated user t.broyer@cegetel.net) by ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com with HTTP; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:21:22 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4400.82.127.77.43.1111054882.squirrel@ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:21:22 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: Attributes on the xhtml:div wrapper From: "Thomas Broyer" To: In-Reply-To: <1443457290.20050316225741@djpowell.net> References: <1443457290.20050316225741@djpowell.net> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Cc: X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.10) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit David Powell wrote: > I think that there is a risk of interoperability problems if we don't > state which attributes are allowed on the xhtml:div wrapper. > > > As the xhtml:div wrapper is not part of the content: is it allowed to > contain XHTML attributes such as class and style? > > I assume that if these attributes are allowed, then they should be > ignored by renderers, and the attributed xhtml:div should be treated as > an un-attributed one. What about:

Hey, hey! I can show ads that can take the whole viewport, hiding everything else in the containing page! (if the feed content is shown inside another HTML page)

Moreover, you can still add constraints on the XHTML content but you'll never be able to constraint HTML content... Maybe that's why NITF (or its subset XMLNews-story) defines its own formatting markup... though NITF also adds semantic markup (location, person, etc.) Anyway, the -06 spec says XHTML is used in its "basic" flavor (and that's good! ), not allowing inline styles (but still the class attribute) nor the script element. Though you can still not put such constraints on type="html" content, and this moves the interop' matter elsewhere: publishers are then required to check and filter their XHTML content (or they'll just put it in type="html" to bypass the validation process... worse than everything else...) before including it in an Atom feed... Oh, and as we're talking about it: the -06 spec states "If the value of "type" is "xhtml", the content of the Text construct MUST be a single XHTML div element" but the RNG schema says it can contain mixed content with "anyElement". However, I still can't understand the _need_ for this xhtml:div wrapper... if someone likes to have a prefix-free feed, he can use a wrapper div, as divs can contain divs! So please revert to "mixed content without wrapper"! (I know it's too late...) -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 06:19:27 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA10756 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:19:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HB9m8v087179; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 03:09:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2HB9mrD087178; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 03:09:48 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail10.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail10.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.26]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j2HB9lie087140 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 03:09:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 16000 messnum 6691721 invoked from network[83.70.250.89/83-70-250-89.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 17 Mar 2005 11:09:41 -0000 Received: from 83-70-250-89.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?192.168.123.125?) (83.70.250.89) by mail10.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 16000) with SMTP; 17 Mar 2005 11:09:41 -0000 Message-ID: <42396572.9040806@dehora.net> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:09:38 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Duerst CC: Antone Roundy , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Attributes on the xhtml:div wrapper References: <1443457290.20050316225741@djpowell.net> <6.0.0.20.2.20050317153332.0961a3b0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20050317153332.0961a3b0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Martin Duerst wrote: > > Mildly put, I was never a big fan of the xhtml:div wrapper. > > But if xml:lang is disallowed on the xhtml:div wrapper, this > makes even less sense to me. If Atom processors can handle > (i.e. correctly inherit) xml:lang from atom: elements into > the xhtml: elements as they are required to, I don't see > why they wouldn't be able to handle xml:lang on xhtml:div. I think anyone who was not a fan of xhtml:div should argue against allowing xml:lang or any other attributes on it. In a few years it'll be obvious that xhtml:div was a needless band-aid - adding extra characteristics to it now serves only to make it harder to zero it out later. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 10:09:19 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA08436 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:09:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HEwP3m045967; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:58:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2HEwP0e045966; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:58:25 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc14.comcast.net [216.148.227.89]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HEwOrn045949 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:58:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-247-97.client.comcast.net[67.169.247.97]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc14) with SMTP id <2005031714581801400muolve>; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:58:18 +0000 Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:58:17 -0700 Subject: Re: Attributes on the xhtml:div wrapper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <4400.82.127.77.43.1111054882.squirrel@ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, March 17, 2005, at 03:21 AM, Thomas Broyer wrote: > Anyway, the -06 spec says XHTML is used in its "basic" flavor (and > that's > good! ), not allowing inline styles (but still the class > attribute) nor the script element. > First, just curious--did we discuss which flavor of XHTML was to be allowed? I'm not familiar enough with the differences to comment on what I'd prefer. Second, looking at http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/REC-xhtml-basic-20001219/, I see that the style ELEMENT is not supported, but it doesn't say that the style ATTRIBUTE is not supported. By "inline styles", are you referring to only what's done in the style element, and not what's done in the style attribute? From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 11:29:02 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA21188 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:29:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HGL7ws053072; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 08:21:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2HGL7nB053071; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 08:21:07 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf01.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.80]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HGL6EP053059 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 08:21:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from cegetel.net (217-19-192-100.dti.cegetel.net [217.19.192.100]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 2D62437AFC; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:20:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from 82.127.77.43 (SquirrelMail authenticated user t.broyer@cegetel.net) by ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com with HTTP; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:21:00 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <1072.82.127.77.43.1111076460.squirrel@ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:21:00 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: Attributes on the xhtml:div wrapper From: "Thomas Broyer" To: In-Reply-To: References: <4400.82.127.77.43.1111054882.squirrel@ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Cc: X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.10) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Antone Roundy wrote: > Second, looking at http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/REC-xhtml-basic-20001219/, > I see that the style ELEMENT is not supported, but it doesn't say that > the style ATTRIBUTE is not supported. That's right, you have to go through the (not much readable, due to XHTMLMOD) DTD, which doesn't include the "Style Attribute Module". > By "inline styles", are you referring to only what's done in the style > element, and not what's done in the style attribute? I was referring to the style attribute. -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 11:44:27 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA22701 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:44:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HGb9Ev054490; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 08:37:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2HGb9f5054489; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 08:37:09 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HGb8WK054480 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 08:37:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-247-97.client.comcast.net[67.169.247.97]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <20050317163702016007pmlge>; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:37:03 +0000 Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:37:01 -0700 Subject: Re: Attributes on the xhtml:div wrapper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <1072.82.127.77.43.1111076460.squirrel@ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, March 17, 2005, at 09:21 AM, Thomas Broyer wrote: > Antone Roundy wrote: >> Second, looking at >> http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/REC-xhtml-basic-20001219/, >> I see that the style ELEMENT is not supported, but it doesn't say that >> the style ATTRIBUTE is not supported. > > That's right, you have to go through the (not much readable, due to > XHTMLMOD) DTD, which doesn't include the "Style Attribute Module". > In that case, if we're going to spec the use of basic xhtml, I think we'd better make an explicit note of this point, because the probability is high that many people will miss it entirely--perhaps something along the lines of "Note that basic XHTML is a subset of XHTML and does not support certain elements and attributes such as the style attribute." From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 12:13:36 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA25690 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:13:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HH17Fv056260; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:01:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2HH17Be056259; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:01:07 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HH16a3056253 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:01:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HH16X8003606 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:01:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IDI00DEF9XT2O@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:01:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.17] ([216.113.204.232]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IDI006CR9XT44@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:01:05 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:01:13 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Attributes on the xhtml:div wrapper In-reply-to: <6.0.0.20.2.20050317153332.0961a3b0@localhost> To: Martin Duerst Cc: Antone Roundy , atom-syntax@imc.org Message-id: <00c39d56f4e298eb366cb110fbb8374e@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1443457290.20050316225741@djpowell.net> <6.0.0.20.2.20050317153332.0961a3b0@localhost> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mar 16, 2005, at 10:38 PM, Martin Duerst wrote: > But if xml:lang is disallowed on the xhtml:div wrapper, this > makes even less sense to me. If Atom processors can handle > (i.e. correctly inherit) xml:lang from atom: elements into > the xhtml: elements as they are required to, I don't see > why they wouldn't be able to handle xml:lang on xhtml:div. +1 -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 12:20:10 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA26599 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:20:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HHCMBq057140; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:12:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2HHCMc6057139; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:12:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HHCMKR057133 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:12:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0cdfl9t.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.213.61] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DByXd-0002si-Sk; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:12:13 +0000 Message-ID: <4239BA84.8020206@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:12:36 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Bray CC: Martin Duerst , Antone Roundy , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Attributes on the xhtml:div wrapper References: <1443457290.20050316225741@djpowell.net> <6.0.0.20.2.20050317153332.0961a3b0@localhost> <00c39d56f4e298eb366cb110fbb8374e@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <00c39d56f4e298eb366cb110fbb8374e@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > > On Mar 16, 2005, at 10:38 PM, Martin Duerst wrote: > >> But if xml:lang is disallowed on the xhtml:div wrapper, this >> makes even less sense to me. If Atom processors can handle >> (i.e. correctly inherit) xml:lang from atom: elements into >> the xhtml: elements as they are required to, I don't see >> why they wouldn't be able to handle xml:lang on xhtml:div. > > > +1 -Tim > +1 as well. 90% of developers are going to drop xml:lang on the floor anyway. The other 10% will get it right if it's on the div wrapper. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 12:26:10 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA27459 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:26:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HHINtp058184; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:18:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2HHINha058183; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:18:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HHIMCK058177 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:18:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HHIMX8018759 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:18:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IDI00DNHAQL2O@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:18:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.17] ([216.113.204.232]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IDI006IYAQK44@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:18:21 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:18:28 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Attributes on the xhtml:div wrapper In-reply-to: <378319864.20050317090828@djpowell.net> To: David Powell Cc: Antone Roundy , atom-syntax@imc.org, Martin Duerst Message-id: <02c9c572063bc54b0b0095cb2571cb8f@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1443457290.20050316225741@djpowell.net> <6.0.0.20.2.20050317153332.0961a3b0@localhost> <378319864.20050317090828@djpowell.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mar 17, 2005, at 1:08 AM, David Powell wrote: > But, I think that we should disallow xhtml attributes on the > xhtml:div -1, unless you can provide actual real examples of actual real problems that this prevents. --Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 12:51:51 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA29567 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:51:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HHi2Xs060539; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:44:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2HHi2qv060538; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:44:02 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j2HHi0na060522 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:44:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian.reschke@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 17 Mar 2005 17:43:54 -0000 Received: from pD9FF006C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (EHLO [192.168.1.87]) [217.255.0.108] by mail.gmx.net (mp011) with SMTP; 17 Mar 2005 18:43:54 +0100 X-Authenticated: #1915285 Message-ID: <4239C1D7.90601@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 18:43:52 +0100 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Bray CC: David Powell , Antone Roundy , atom-syntax@imc.org, Martin Duerst Subject: Re: Attributes on the xhtml:div wrapper References: <1443457290.20050316225741@djpowell.net> <6.0.0.20.2.20050317153332.0961a3b0@localhost> <378319864.20050317090828@djpowell.net> <02c9c572063bc54b0b0095cb2571cb8f@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <02c9c572063bc54b0b0095cb2571cb8f@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > > On Mar 17, 2005, at 1:08 AM, David Powell wrote: > >> But, I think that we should disallow xhtml attributes on the >> xhtml:div > > > -1, unless you can provide actual real examples of actual real problems > that this prevents. --Tim The underlying issue here (afaik) is that we've been told that the mandatory is /not/ part of the content, thus I wouldn't expect recipients to store it in any way. So what happens if attributes carry inheritable information? Best regards, Julian -- bytes GmbH -- http://www.greenbytes.de -- tel:+492512807760 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 12:55:24 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA29964 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:55:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HHmKJU060837; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:48:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2HHmKcb060836; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:48:20 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HHmK5u060828 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:48:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-247-97.client.comcast.net[67.169.247.97]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <200503171748140140050cvde>; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:48:14 +0000 Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:48:13 -0700 Subject: Re: Attributes on the xhtml:div wrapper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <02c9c572063bc54b0b0095cb2571cb8f@sun.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, March 17, 2005, at 10:18 AM, Tim Bray wrote: > On Mar 17, 2005, at 1:08 AM, David Powell wrote: > >> But, I think that we should disallow xhtml attributes on the >> xhtml:div > > -1, unless you can provide actual real examples of actual real > problems that this prevents. --Tim > If we're going to be using a flavor of XHTML that doesn't support @style, then this example is invalid, but perhaps the concept can be transferred to some other attribute. This example assumes that the XHTML namespace is already bound to the prefix "x": Am I red text? Should the text be rendered in red or not? The div and its style attribute are not part of the content, so do they have the ability to style the content? When I hand the content off to my XHTML rendering widget, how would I tell it about the red style if I've removed the wrapper div? I haven't worked with such widgets, so for all I know, there may be an obvious answer to that--at least for some widgets. But still, applications are going to have to know more about XHTML than they'd have to know if they could simply discard the wrapper and pass its contents on to their XHTML widget. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 15:51:22 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA19172 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:51:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HKhwb6079212; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:43:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2HKhw5M079211; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:43:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HKhvn2079200 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:43:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j2HKh2pN009974; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:43:12 GMT In-Reply-To: <42386947.5010107@franklinmint.fm> References: <42382E92.90603@franklinmint.fm> <825c61384d6d9d43c97a05b2ee511112@mac.com> <42386947.5010107@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Atom-Syntax From: Graham Subject: Re: draft-ietf-atompub-format-06 Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:42:15 +0000 To: mint@franklinmint.fm X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 16 Mar 2005, at 5:13 pm, Robert Sayre wrote: > Graham wrote: >> On 16 Mar 2005, at 1:03 pm, Robert Sayre wrote: >>> PaceHeadless. The chairs agree that both reads are reasonable, and >>> are ok with this divergence. >> The working group aren't. Revert PaceHeadless immediately. > > All of the objections concerned the atom:head text rather than > extensibility. Rejecting the extensibility text because of editorial > comments about atom:head is not appropriate. The extensions text in > atom:head is nearly identical to PaceExtensionConstruct, which Tim > didn't like because of RDF language, but everyone else approved. The > current text has no RDF language. From a purely aesthetic point of view, we now have one element name with a hyphen while the rest are one word. Yuck. Secondly, whereas before we had two types of head with identical syntax, we now have feed and source-feed with different syntax. Double yuck. Thirdly, a lot of the metadata in (or ) does not describe the element, they describe various different subjects: - This feed document - The feed in general - Entry defaults The element indicated that, like headers in other contexts, this is extra data that doesn't have much meaning in itself but may be useful in processing the entries. Defining them as metadata belonging to was tottally misguided. > Arguing process is not productive here. Finding out the WG's real view > is. The WGs view appears to be very clearly "no consensus", which has lead to automatic closure of every other pace recently. Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 16:00:24 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA20070 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:00:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HKslxO080149; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:54:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2HKslHl080148; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:54:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf00.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.79]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HKskUw080137 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:54:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.5.48.33]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEA9267621; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:54:40 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4239EE90.9090805@cegetel.net> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:54:40 +0100 From: Thomas Broyer User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: fr, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Antone Roundy Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Attributes on the xhtml:div wrapper References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Antone Roundy a écrit : > If we're going to be using a flavor of XHTML that doesn't support > @style, then this example is invalid, but perhaps the concept can be > transferred to some other attribute. This example assumes that the > XHTML namespace is already bound to the prefix "x": > > Am I red > text? > > Should the text be rendered in red or not? The question is: should the text should be rendered using any publisher-provided style or using the Atom processor's style, or the including web page's style (if I'm publishing someone else's feed on my own website) ? Is Atom a _news_ syndication format ? And maybe something like NITF/XMLNews-story would be a better choice. Or is Atom a _web_ syndication format ? And XHTML is a good choice. Or is Atom a _publication_ format ? And DocBook/XML would be a good choice. > The div and its style > attribute are not part of the content, so do they have the ability to > style the content? When I hand the content off to my XHTML rendering > widget, how would I tell it about the red style if I've removed the > wrapper div? I haven't worked with such widgets, so for all I know, > there may be an obvious answer to that--at least for some widgets. But > still, applications are going to have to know more about XHTML than > they'd have to know if they could simply discard the wrapper and pass > its contents on to their XHTML widget. ...hmm, or maybe we shouldn't have introduced the wrapper and we could simply rollback... -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 16:02:49 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA20261 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:02:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HKsPMp080113; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:54:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2HKsPNe080112; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:54:25 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HKsOKr080106 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:54:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0cdfl9t.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.213.61] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DC20b-0005WL-5m; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:54:21 +0000 Message-ID: <4239EE94.6070108@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:54:44 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham CC: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: draft-ietf-atompub-format-06 References: <42382E92.90603@franklinmint.fm> <825c61384d6d9d43c97a05b2ee511112@mac.com> <42386947.5010107@franklinmint.fm> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > > On 16 Mar 2005, at 5:13 pm, Robert Sayre wrote: > >> Graham wrote: >> >>> On 16 Mar 2005, at 1:03 pm, Robert Sayre wrote: >>> >>>> PaceHeadless. The chairs agree that both reads are reasonable, and >>>> are ok with this divergence. >>> >>> The working group aren't. Revert PaceHeadless immediately. >> >> >> All of the objections concerned the atom:head text rather than >> extensibility. Rejecting the extensibility text because of editorial >> comments about atom:head is not appropriate. The extensions text in >> atom:head is nearly identical to PaceExtensionConstruct, which Tim >> didn't like because of RDF language, but everyone else approved. The >> current text has no RDF language. > > > From a purely aesthetic point of view, we now have one element name > with a hyphen while the rest are one word. Yuck. > > Secondly, whereas before we had two types of head with identical syntax, > we now have feed and source-feed with different syntax. Double yuck. > The previous text wasn't any better, and had an undefined extension point (sibling of entry and head). But this is just aesthetics. RSS2 does it this way, and it works fine. > Thirdly, a lot of the metadata in (or ) does not describe > the element, they describe various different subjects: > - This feed document > - The feed in general > - Entry defaults > I don't think this is a valuable distinction, but maybe other folks will. > The element indicated that, like headers in other contexts, this > is extra data that doesn't have much meaning in itself but may be useful > in processing the entries. Defining them as metadata belonging to > was tottally misguided. > I don't understand this statement. How is tagline or updated not feed metadata? Defining "entry defaults" was totally misquided in my opinion, but I lost that argument. >> Arguing process is not productive here. Finding out the WG's real view >> is. > > > The WGs view appears to be very clearly "no consensus", which has lead > to automatic closure of every other pace recently. This is a process argument. The chairs can deal with that. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 17:04:06 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA25508 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:04:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HLwSLa086339; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:58:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2HLwS6R086338; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:58:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HLwRLp086330 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:58:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HLwRX8007308 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:58:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe7 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IDI00IZNNPF96@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:58:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.14] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IDI005E7NPEUK@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:58:27 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:58:35 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Outstanding work on format draft To: "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT If you check the latest format draft (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-format-06.txt), there are a bunch of open issues marked by the editor with "[[anchor" We're going to need to sort out some of these before taking this forward. Paul did a run-through, sent it to me, and I've fiddled a bit, here are the results. There are 3 sections: A. Things that don't require WG discussion but may require editorial action B. Things that don't require any short-term action C. Things that potentially require WG action If you have feedback, *PLEASE* don't just reply to this message, the subject line isn't helpful. In particular, if you want to change some specific thing about the spec, we must have a separate thread. ======================================================================== === A. Things that don't require WG discussion but may require editorial action: [[anchor4: Ask yourself: is the example atom:entry valid?]] No, it's not, because there's no or ; so fix it. [[anchor31: J. Reschke: I'm not sure I understand what this is for. It seems to discourage putting XML data out-of-band. Why? ... Explaining the issue instead of just trying to enforce it may lead to better results...]] Agree that an explanation would be helpful, and it would be nice to have it before last call. ======================================================================== === B. Things that don't require any short-term action [[anchor7: discussion of white space]] There were a couple of failed white-space Paces, just take this out. [[anchor11: Some feel type attributes with different allowable values in different elements is confusing.]]. Yep, and they may be right. Haven't seen any Paces. It's not fatal, take this out. [[anchor12: example atom entry w/ escaped markup]] That should be given in the -07 draft, but can wait until after IETF last call if it is contentious or a whole lot of work. [[anchor21: Substantially changed from format-05, review carefully.]] Agree. :-) [[anchor22: inheritance]] This is a duplicate of anchor24, so lose it. [[anchor45: Substantially changed from format-05, review carefully]] Agree. :-) The "atom:id" element conveys a permanent, universally unique [[anchor67: Changed to MAY from SHOULD. Republishers might want to copy it. --R. Sayre]] Hard to argue. [[anchor71: update upon publication]] [[anchor72: update upon publication]] [[anchor73: update upon publication]] Leave these in to give IANA a hint. [[anchor85: This section should be removed before final publication.]] Leave this in to give the RFC Editor a hint. ======================================================================== === C. Things that potentially require WG action: [[anchor24: What if there's a source-feed element? This is busted. We should make author required for atom:feed and optional for atom:entry. No inheritance co-constraints required. --R. Sayre]] Right, this seems broken on the surface. Let's get some proposed wordings. On the other hand if we decide to override the editors and put back, this goes away (right?) [[anchor25: "atom:entry elements MUST NOT contain more than one atom:link element with a rel attribute value of "alternate" that has the same type attribute value." This requirement predates @hreflang. Keep it? --R. Sayre]] Keeping it would be plausible. So would changing the language to say "with the same type and hreflang attribute values." The default action is to leave things as they are, so if you want a change, post separately with a wording. o atom:entry elements MUST contain an atom:summary element in any of the following cases: [[anchor26: Do these requirements reflect the WG's decisions? --R. Sayre]] * the atom:entry element contains no atom:content element. [[anchor27: Net result: Atom entries MUST have an atom:summary or an atom:content element.]] * the atom:entry contains an atom:content that has a "src" attribute (and is thus empty). * the atom:entry contains content that is encoded in Base64; i.e. the "type" attribute of atom:content is a MIME media type [RFC2045] and does not begin with "text/" nor end with "+xml". Yes, this reflects the WG consensus, and yes, the implication is that you need either summary or content. I could live with taking that out of Atom, but we need someone to make a formal proposal and build consensus. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 17:20:53 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA26664 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:20:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HMCDrW087283; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:12:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2HMCDAt087282; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:12:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HMCC6C087274 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:12:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0cdfl9t.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.213.61] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DC3Ds-0006Dd-Q1 for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 22:12:08 +0000 Message-ID: <423A00D0.6020708@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:12:32 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom-Syntax Subject: author requirements Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > C. Things that potentially require WG action: > > [[anchor24: What if > there's a source-feed element? This is busted. We should make > author required for atom:feed and optional for atom:entry. No > inheritance co-constraints required. --R. Sayre]] > > Right, this seems broken on the surface. Let's get some proposed > wordings. On the other hand if we decide to override the editors and > put back, this goes away (right?) Wrong. I'm not sure why you guys think entry/head/author serves a different purpose than entry/source-feed/author. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 17:33:14 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA28574 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:33:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HMRPb6088259; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:27:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2HMRPqI088258; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:27:25 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HMROtb088252 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:27:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0cdfl9t.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.213.61] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DC3SX-0006MN-HH for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 22:27:17 +0000 Message-ID: <423A0458.5000203@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:27:36 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom-Syntax Subject: summary or content Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Note: the editors were instructed to "highlight a couple sentences in the draft" because this WG didn't notice the broken example that's been there the whole time. Actually, I vaguely remember one person mentioning it a long time ago, but I may have been talking to myself as I was working on the draft and then forgotten to make the edit. In any case, it's my opinion that it hurts interop because people start sticking cruft in there to meet the requirement. Remember Anil Dash's linkblog and RSS Bandit? Also, which existing syndication formats have a similar requirement? RFC2822 doesn't require a body either, btw. Also, there's linkblogs in general, and stuff like Bill's HTTPLR. Robert Sayre > [[anchor4: Ask yourself: is the example atom:entry valid?]] > > No, it's not, because there's no or ; so fix it > > o atom:entry elements MUST contain an atom:summary element in any of > the following cases: [[anchor26: Do these requirements reflect the > WG's decisions? --R. Sayre]] > * the atom:entry element contains no atom:content element. > [[anchor27: Net result: Atom entries MUST have an atom:summary > or an atom:content element.]] > * the atom:entry contains an atom:content that has a "src" > attribute (and is thus empty). > * the atom:entry contains content that is encoded in Base64; i.e. > the "type" attribute of atom:content is a MIME media type > [RFC2045] and does not begin with "text/" nor end with "+xml". > > Yes, this reflects the WG consensus, and yes, the implication is that you need either summary or content. I could live with taking that out of Atom, but we need someone to make a formal proposal and build consensus. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 17:53:54 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA00036 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:53:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HMlFfw089639; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:47:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2HMlFUS089638; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:47:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HMlEQ8089632 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:47:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-247-97.client.comcast.net[67.169.247.97]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2005031722470901300eiture>; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 22:47:09 +0000 Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:47:08 -0700 Subject: One link with @rel="alternative" unless... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <7DE24238-9736-11D9-8631-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, March 17, 2005, at 02:58 PM, Tim Bray wrote: > [[anchor25: "atom:entry elements MUST NOT > contain more than one atom:link element with a rel attribute > value > of "alternate" that has the same type attribute value." This > requirement predates @hreflang. Keep it? --R. Sayre]] > > Keeping it would be plausible. So would changing the language to say > "with the same type and hreflang attribute values." The default > action is to leave things as they are, so if you want a change, post > separately with a wording. "...that has the same combination of type and hreflang attribute values." From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 17:56:54 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA00252 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:56:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HMq4mo089975; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:52:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2HMq4aU089974; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:52:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.204]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HMq3Z8089968 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:52:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 1so169726rny for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:52:03 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=tv4xjPslDRouuoYtJ27PEo/FnU7mkxhN2PSndvMBl1Fp3xuB4AjgjVBf4C/D3YRf2z1OmWQs0V5SU5uNx1ieiMLQUDJ5FkqfYX7tBpvTYo1NQWBJl0+d2huGS9mrTdYUlZKqW27z3annI+OuyHkYnyVWDO8Z9P+n3nJ+lgKIr3c= Received: by 10.38.179.2 with SMTP id b2mr635996rnf; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:52:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.25 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:52:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd05031714522dd7e308@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:52:03 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: draft-06, datetime regexp Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I only noticed the new draft on my way to bed, have only skimmed but this looks a bit clunky: ----------------------- 3.3 Date Constructs A Date construct is an element whose content MUST conform to the date-time BNF rule in [RFC3339]. I.e., the content of this element matches this regular expression [0-9]{8}T[0-9]{2}:[0-9]{2}:[0-9]{2}(\.[0-9]+) ?(Z|[\+\-][0-9]{2}:[0-9]{2}) As a result, the date values conform to the following specifications: [RFC3339], [W3C.REC-xmlschema-2-20041028], [W3C.NOTE-datetime-19980827], and [ISO.8601.1988]. ----------------------- Personally I don't think the regexp really helps, it's not normative (which regexp spec?) and not very informative (aren't they NFL scores?). An example or two would be more use in recognising and understanding the format(s) being referred to. he examples in RFC 3339 work well, e.g. [[ 1996-12-19T16:39:57-08:00 This represents 39 minutes and 57 seconds after the 16th hour of December 19th, 1996 with an offset of -08:00 from UTC (Pacific Standard Time). Note that this is equivalent to 1996-12-20T00:39:57Z in UTC. ]] Wouldn't something like that be clearer? Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 18:02:04 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA00644 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 18:02:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HMtTKM090196; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:55:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2HMtTbN090195; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:55:29 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HMtTBx090185 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:55:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-247-97.client.comcast.net[67.169.247.97]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2005031722552401300egt0ue>; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 22:55:24 +0000 Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:55:22 -0700 Subject: Re: author requirements Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <423A00D0.6020708@franklinmint.fm> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, March 17, 2005, at 03:12 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: > > C. Things that potentially require WG action: > > > > [[anchor24: What if > > there's a source-feed element? This is busted. We should make > > author required for atom:feed and optional for atom:entry. No > > inheritance co-constraints required. --R. Sayre]] > > > > Right, this seems broken on the surface. Let's get some proposed > > wordings. On the other hand if we decide to override the editors and > > put back, this goes away (right?) > > Wrong. I'm not sure why you guys think entry/head/author serves a > different purpose than entry/source-feed/author. Here's the current wording: atom:entry elements MUST contain exactly one atom:author element, unless, in an Atom Feed Document, the atom:feed element contains an atom:author element itself. atom:entry elements MUST NOT contain more than one atom:author element. There are two directions we can go: atom:entry elements MUST NOT contain more than one atom:author element. or: atom:entry elements MUST contain exactly one atom:author element, unless the atom:entry contains an atom:source-feed element which contains an atom:author element, or, in an Atom Feed Document, the atom:feed element contains an atom:author element itself. atom:entry elements MUST NOT contain more than one atom:author element. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 18:13:25 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA02107 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 18:13:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HN7s4f091134; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:07:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2HN7rZk091133; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:07:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (smtpout15.mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HN7qUv091119 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:07:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamta07-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050317230746.UCOD22922.mta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta07-winn.mailhost.ntl.com> for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:07:46 +0000 Received: from cpc3-stke1-5-0-cust172.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([82.11.128.172]) by aamta07-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050317230746.DTQE10174.aamta07-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@cpc3-stke1-5-0-cust172.bagu.cable.ntl.com> for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:07:46 +0000 Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:07:44 +0000 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.9.7 Return (pre-beta)) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1802371927.20050317230744@djpowell.net> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: XHTML Basic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When did we decide to restrict XHTML content to XHTML Basic? I don't remember this being discussed at all? Was it decided recently? -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 18:20:25 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA03010 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 18:20:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HNDI5j091424; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:13:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2HNDIEK091423; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:13:18 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HNDHaC091416 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:13:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HNDHX8003492 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:13:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IDI00ICER64LE@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:13:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.14] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IDI007H3R64OP@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:13:16 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:13:24 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: draft-06, datetime regexp In-reply-to: <1f2ed5cd05031714522dd7e308@mail.gmail.com> To: Danny Ayers Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Message-id: <563e8aa8254ee56b2a447035121f2f6e@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1f2ed5cd05031714522dd7e308@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mar 17, 2005, at 2:52 PM, Danny Ayers wrote: > 3.3 Date Constructs ... > > Personally I don't think the regexp really helps, it's not normative > (which regexp spec?) and not very informative (aren't they NFL > scores?). An example or two would be more use in recognising and > understanding the format(s) being referred to. Sorry, this was discussed a lot and the regex has massive support. Having said that... > > he examples in RFC 3339 work well, e.g. More examples in the draft would be good. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 18:27:07 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA03356 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 18:27:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HNJ3lS091793; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:19:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2HNJ3TY091792; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:19:03 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HNJ2aB091786 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:19:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0cdfl9t.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.213.61] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DC4GY-0006v3-FA; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:18:58 +0000 Message-ID: <423A107A.5050508@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 18:19:22 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Bray CC: Danny Ayers , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-06, datetime regexp References: <1f2ed5cd05031714522dd7e308@mail.gmail.com> <563e8aa8254ee56b2a447035121f2f6e@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <563e8aa8254ee56b2a447035121f2f6e@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > > > On Mar 17, 2005, at 2:52 PM, Danny Ayers wrote: >> Personally I don't think the regexp really helps, it's not normative >> (which regexp spec?) and not very informative (aren't they NFL >> scores?). An example or two would be more use in recognising and >> understanding the format(s) being referred to. > > > Sorry, this was discussed a lot and the regex has massive support. > Having said that... > >> >> he examples in RFC 3339 work well, e.g. > > > More examples in the draft would be good. -Tim Agree, but is Danny right about the missing normative reference? And shoot, we also missed the reference for the ABNF in atom:link. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 18:52:04 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA05150 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 18:52:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HNlwaw093805; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:47:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2HNlwNP093804; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:47:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HNlvbu093795 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:47:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j2HNlXwD021003; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:47:33 GMT In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <4977edec4182ebd6cd3e17a0472545ff@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" From: Graham Subject: Re: Outstanding work on format draft Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:46:46 +0000 To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 17 Mar 2005, at 9:58 pm, Tim Bray wrote: > [[anchor7: discussion of white space]] > > There were a couple of failed white-space Paces, just take this out. I disagree - the Pace I wrote was about whitespace within content, whereas that anchor is in a section about document syntax. I know there are RSS users who think thinks like rel=" alternate " are acceptable. Some discussion of this would be useful. > [[anchor11: Some feel > type attributes with different allowable values in different > elements > is confusing.]]. > > Yep, and they may be right. Haven't seen any Paces. It's not fatal, > take this out. A quick bit of rewording would help. Currently it basically says "The type attribute may have the values..." three times with three different rules. Changing it to "On the summary element, the type atrribute may have the values..." stops the spec being apparently self-contradicting. Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 18:54:17 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA05372 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 18:54:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HNlEO7093757; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:47:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2HNlE8q093756; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:47:14 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2HNl5mQ093733 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:47:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j2HNjxIh020716; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:46:04 GMT In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Graham Subject: Re: author requirements Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:45:12 +0000 To: Antone Roundy X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 17 Mar 2005, at 10:55 pm, Antone Roundy wrote: > atom:entry elements MUST contain exactly one atom:author element, > unless the atom:entry contains an atom:source-feed element which > contains an atom:author element, or, in an Atom Feed Document, > the atom:feed element contains an atom:author element itself. > atom:entry elements MUST NOT contain more than one atom:author > element. That looks good. One problem with HeadInEntry is that it didn't specify this kind of inheritance. Some general purpose wording saying that when source-feed is present, it becomes the "feed" element that entry/feed dependence rules are evaulated against. Logically, it's the only was for compound feeds to work. Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 19:06:32 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA06082 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:06:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I00iAp094691; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:00:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2I00ifK094690; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:00:44 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I00hVL094684 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:00:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0cdfl9t.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.213.61] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DC4uq-0007GP-3k; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:00:36 +0000 Message-ID: <423A1A3B.6000801@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:00:59 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham CC: Tim Bray , "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" Subject: Re: Outstanding work on format draft References: <4977edec4182ebd6cd3e17a0472545ff@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <4977edec4182ebd6cd3e17a0472545ff@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > I disagree - the Pace I wrote was about whitespace within content, > whereas that anchor is in a section about document syntax. I know there > are RSS users who think thinks like rel=" alternate " are acceptable. > Some discussion of this would be useful. Write something down. I can't speak for Mark here, but I have no idea what needs to be said there. > A quick bit of rewording would help. Currently it basically says "The > type attribute may have the values..." three times with three different > rules. Changing it to "On the summary element, the type atrribute may > have the values..." stops the spec being apparently self-contradicting. Excellent suggestion, thanks. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 19:16:17 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA06747 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:16:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I094uY095566; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:09:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2I094A8095565; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:09:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I0937p095559 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:09:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0cdfl9t.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.213.61] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DC52w-0007Ku-Kp; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:08:58 +0000 Message-ID: <423A1C32.1020300@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:09:22 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham CC: Antone Roundy , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: author requirements References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > > On 17 Mar 2005, at 10:55 pm, Antone Roundy wrote: > >> atom:entry elements MUST contain exactly one atom:author element, >> unless the atom:entry contains an atom:source-feed element which >> contains an atom:author element, or, in an Atom Feed Document, >> the atom:feed element contains an atom:author element itself. >> atom:entry elements MUST NOT contain more than one atom:author >> element. > > > That looks good. One problem with HeadInEntry is that it didn't specify > this kind of inheritance. Some general purpose wording saying that when > source-feed is present, it becomes the "feed" element that entry/feed > dependence rules are evaulated against. Logically, it's the only was for > compound feeds to work. Is it important to preserve the option not to include feed/author? Has anyone ever seen an Atom 0.3 feed that takes advantage of this provision? Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 19:29:13 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA08070 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:29:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I0MhmD096252; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:22:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2I0MhJP096251; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:22:43 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I0MgQl096245 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:22:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I0MgX8017649 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:22:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IDI00IDFUDULE@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:22:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.14] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IDI00HNOUDTZ7@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:22:42 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:22:49 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Outstanding work on format draft In-reply-to: <4977edec4182ebd6cd3e17a0472545ff@mac.com> To: Graham Cc: "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <4977edec4182ebd6cd3e17a0472545ff@mac.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mar 17, 2005, at 3:46 PM, Graham wrote: > On 17 Mar 2005, at 9:58 pm, Tim Bray wrote: > >> [[anchor7: discussion of white space]] >> >> There were a couple of failed white-space Paces, just take this out. > > I disagree - the Pace I wrote was about whitespace within content, > whereas that anchor is in a section about document syntax. I know > there are RSS users who think thinks like rel=" alternate " are > acceptable. Some discussion of this would be useful. I think I'd claim that the spec as-is rules out , but if it we have experience from the field saying that this is a common error, I'd have nothing against having something in the spec to head it off. >> [[anchor11: Some feel >> type attributes with different allowable values in different >> elements >> is confusing.]]. > A quick bit of rewording would help. Currently it basically says "The > type attribute may have the values..." three times with three > different rules. Changing it to "On the summary element, the type > atrribute may have the values..." stops the spec being apparently > self-contradicting. +1 -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 19:34:02 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA08544 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:34:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I0RlUv096979; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:27:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2I0Rls3096978; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:27:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I0RlIA096970 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:27:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I0RkX8020787 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:27:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IDI00IGQUMA96@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:27:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.14] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IDI00HBSUM9YE@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:27:46 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:27:53 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: s/url/web/ To: "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" Message-id: <6af7ee6d830644cf299f390a2847a6b2@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT EDITORIAL: There are a couple of places where we use "uri" in the markup, specifically the "atom:uri" element (3.2.2) and the "uri" attribute of "atom:generator" (4.2.5). In both cases they're not actually URIs, they're IRIs, so the name is WRONG, except for nobody knows what an IRI is so renaming them "iri" would be confusing, and anyhow everyone thinks of URLs not *RIs, but naming them "url" would be wrong too, so why don't we actually change them to say what they're there for not what their syntax is and use "web" in both cases? -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 19:46:01 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA09930 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:46:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I0d1AG098205; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:39:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2I0d1ic098203; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:39:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I0d0RC098193 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:39:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j2I0cP2H006997; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:38:25 GMT In-Reply-To: <563e8aa8254ee56b2a447035121f2f6e@sun.com> References: <1f2ed5cd05031714522dd7e308@mail.gmail.com> <563e8aa8254ee56b2a447035121f2f6e@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Danny Ayers , atom-syntax@imc.org From: Graham Subject: Re: draft-06, datetime regexp Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:37:39 +0000 To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 17 Mar 2005, at 11:13 pm, Tim Bray wrote: > OSorry, this was discussed a lot and the regex has massive support. > Having said that... Pardon? I remember the concept of three-way compatibility being popular. The only archived discussion I can find of the regex is Norm and Robert proposing it, Sam supporting, Julian saying he doesn't hate it and me criticising it for exactly the same reasons as Danny. Also, the regex begins: [0-9]{8}T Which unless I'm mistaken requires the date section to be exactly 8 digits with no punctuation. Yet RFC3339 defines the date section as having hyphens: full-date = date-fullyear "-" date-month "-" date-mday I don't think there's better proof of the regex's awfulness than, given the number of eyeballs that have been on it to get it into the spec, no one's noticed there's a glaring error in the very first term. Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 19:48:38 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA10132 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:48:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I0cbow098181; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:38:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2I0cbFH098180; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:38:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I0caiH098174 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:38:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0cdfl9t.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.213.61] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DC5VY-0007XT-3U; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:38:32 +0000 Message-ID: <423A231F.2020706@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:38:55 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Bray CC: "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" Subject: Re: s/url/web/ References: <6af7ee6d830644cf299f390a2847a6b2@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <6af7ee6d830644cf299f390a2847a6b2@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > > EDITORIAL: > > There are a couple of places where we use "uri" in the markup, > specifically the "atom:uri" element (3.2.2) and the "uri" attribute of > "atom:generator" (4.2.5). > > In both cases they're not actually URIs, they're IRIs, so the name is > WRONG, Keeping the name atom:uri is exactly what Martin, author of RFC3987 and PaceIRI, suggested. > except for nobody knows what an IRI is so renaming them "iri" > would be confusing, and anyhow everyone thinks of URLs not *RIs, but > naming them "url" would be wrong too, so why don't we actually change > them to say what they're there for not what their syntax is and use > "web" in both cases? Sounds good to me. This doesn't light up some religious war, does it? Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 20:02:21 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA11011 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:02:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I0uWZ9099349; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:56:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2I0uWcK099348; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:56:32 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I0uVjg099342 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:56:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0cdfl9t.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.213.61] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DC5mq-0007iW-Ic; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:56:24 +0000 Message-ID: <423A2750.6030809@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:56:48 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham CC: Tim Bray , Danny Ayers , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-06, datetime regexp References: <1f2ed5cd05031714522dd7e308@mail.gmail.com> <563e8aa8254ee56b2a447035121f2f6e@sun.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > I don't think there's better proof of the regex's awfulness than, given > the number of eyeballs that have been on it to get it into the spec, no > one's noticed there's a glaring error in the very first term. Have to admit, I liked it a lot more before Graham pointed out that I didn't read it. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 20:06:15 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA11241 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:06:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I0jX5T098547; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:45:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2I0jXwO098546; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:45:33 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I0jWMO098539 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:45:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (203.30.247.2) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:46:26 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:45:23 +1100 Subject: Re: draft-06, datetime regexp From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <563e8aa8254ee56b2a447035121f2f6e@sun.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 18/3/05 10:13 AM, "Tim Bray" wrote: >> Personally I don't think the regexp really helps, it's not normative >> (which regexp spec?) and not very informative (aren't they NFL >> scores?). An example or two would be more use in recognising and >> understanding the format(s) being referred to. > > Sorry, this was discussed a lot and the regex has massive support. > Having said that.. the regex is mostly useful for validating a datetime element, but it's not much good for working out how to build it. and it's not entirely useful for validating either ... according to the regex: [0-9]{8}T[0-9]{2}:[0-9]{2}:[0-9]{2}(\.[0-9]+) ?(Z|[\+\-][0-9]{2}:[0-9]{2}) this is valid: 19961332T25:79:57-08:91 which it isn't. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 20:06:24 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA11274 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:06:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I0q4ck099076; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:52:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2I0q4i9099075; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:52:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I0q45A099063 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:52:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from duerst@w3.org) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91FE54F1C1; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:52:02 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20050318094914.0b9ce0e0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:50:02 +0900 To: Tim Bray , "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: s/url/web/ In-Reply-To: <6af7ee6d830644cf299f390a2847a6b2@sun.com> References: <6af7ee6d830644cf299f390a2847a6b2@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think this is definitely worth a try, although it sounds a bit weird at first (it's not the whole Web, is it?). Regards, Martin. At 09:27 05/03/18, Tim Bray wrote: > >EDITORIAL: > >There are a couple of places where we use "uri" in the markup, specifically the "atom:uri" element (3.2.2) and the "uri" attribute of "atom:generator" (4.2.5). > >In both cases they're not actually URIs, they're IRIs, so the name is WRONG, except for nobody knows what an IRI is so renaming them "iri" would be confusing, and anyhow everyone thinks of URLs not *RIs, but naming them "url" would be wrong too, so why don't we actually change them to say what they're there for not what their syntax is and use "web" in both cases? -Tim > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 20:10:30 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA11434 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:10:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I1390o000320; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:03:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2I139RI000319; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:03:09 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I1399g000313 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:03:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0cdfl9t.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.213.61] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DC5tM-0007tE-CV for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 01:03:08 +0000 Message-ID: <423A28E1.7030504@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:03:29 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom-Syntax Subject: atom:id comparison text Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit EDITORIAL: RFC3987, section 5.1 reads "Applications using IRIs as identity tokens with no relationship to a protocol MUST use the Simple String Comparison..." Should we call this out? Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 20:10:46 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA11459 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:10:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I15NdG000480; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:05:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2I15Nct000479; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:05:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail10.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail10.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.26]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j2I15Mfn000458 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:05:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 84990 messnum 6690062 invoked from network[83.70.250.89/83-70-250-89.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 18 Mar 2005 01:05:16 -0000 Received: from 83-70-250-89.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?192.168.123.125?) (83.70.250.89) by mail10.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 84990) with SMTP; 18 Mar 2005 01:05:16 -0000 Message-ID: <423A294B.7050807@dehora.net> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 01:05:15 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" Subject: Re: s/url/web/ References: <6af7ee6d830644cf299f390a2847a6b2@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <6af7ee6d830644cf299f390a2847a6b2@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > > EDITORIAL: > > There are a couple of places where we use "uri" in the markup, > specifically the "atom:uri" element (3.2.2) and the "uri" attribute of > "atom:generator" (4.2.5). > > In both cases they're not actually URIs, they're IRIs, so the name is > WRONG, except for nobody knows what an IRI is so renaming them "iri" > would be confusing, and anyhow everyone thinks of URLs not *RIs, but > naming them "url" would be wrong too, so why don't we actually change > them to say what they're there for not what their syntax is and use > "web" in both cases? -Tim If they're IRIs, then call them that. if nobody knows what an IRI is, and we want to foist them, it's up to us to educate. -1 to atom:web cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 17 20:55:12 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA14453 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:55:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I1kQsT003479; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:46:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2I1kQl5003477; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:46:26 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.dnainternet.net (smtp2.dnainternet.net [62.240.72.111]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I1kPKr003469 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:46:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hsivonen@iki.fi) Received: from 217-140-228-104.adsl-net.finnetcom.net ([217.140.228.104]:58839 "EHLO [217.140.228.104]" TLS-CIPHER: ) by smtp2.dnainternet.net with ESMTP id S1228743AbVCRBqX (ORCPT ); Fri, 18 Mar 2005 03:46:23 +0200 In-Reply-To: <1443457290.20050316225741@djpowell.net> References: <1443457290.20050316225741@djpowell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <7be9c5c394d785f0c3191602ed181cff@iki.fi> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Henri Sivonen Subject: Re: Attributes on the xhtml:div wrapper Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 03:45:51 +0200 To: David Powell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mar 17, 2005, at 00:57, David Powell wrote: > c) disallow XHTML attributes on the xhtml:div wrapper, but > allow xml:lang. If you allow declaring the language, why do you disallow declaring the dominant writing direction (dir)? Shouldn't they be allowed or disallowed together? d) Get rid of the wrapper div. -- Henri Sivonen hsivonen@iki.fi http://hsivonen.iki.fi/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 18 00:47:09 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA04237 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:47:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I5ePuW023228; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:40:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2I5eP4l023227; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:40:25 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j2I5eNbZ023213 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:40:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian.reschke@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 18 Mar 2005 05:40:15 -0000 Received: from pD9FF0D08.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO [192.168.0.4]) [217.255.13.8] by mail.gmx.net (mp027) with SMTP; 18 Mar 2005 06:40:15 +0100 X-Authenticated: #1915285 Message-ID: <423A69B8.6060903@gmx.de> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 06:40:08 +0100 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henri Sivonen CC: David Powell , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Attributes on the xhtml:div wrapper References: <1443457290.20050316225741@djpowell.net> <7be9c5c394d785f0c3191602ed181cff@iki.fi> In-Reply-To: <7be9c5c394d785f0c3191602ed181cff@iki.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henri Sivonen wrote: > > On Mar 17, 2005, at 00:57, David Powell wrote: > >> c) disallow XHTML attributes on the xhtml:div wrapper, but >> allow xml:lang. > > > If you allow declaring the language, why do you disallow declaring the > dominant writing direction (dir)? Shouldn't they be allowed or > disallowed together? > > d) Get rid of the wrapper div. +1 (as far as I can tell, it makes things more complicated, not simpler) -- bytes GmbH -- http://www.greenbytes.de -- tel:+492512807760 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 18 02:54:51 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA04349 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 02:54:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I7ipCI069897; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:44:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2I7ipqH069896; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:44:51 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf01.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.80]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I7ioiN069834 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:44:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from cegetel.net (217-19-192-100.dti.cegetel.net [217.19.192.100]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with SMTP id CB23A37DDA; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 08:44:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from 82.127.77.43 (SquirrelMail authenticated user t.broyer@cegetel.net) by ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com with HTTP; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 08:44:44 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <1693.82.127.77.43.1111131884.squirrel@ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 08:44:44 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: White-space in attribute values [was: Outstanding work on format draft] From: "Thomas Broyer" To: In-Reply-To: <4977edec4182ebd6cd3e17a0472545ff@mac.com> References: <4977edec4182ebd6cd3e17a0472545ff@mac.com> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Cc: , X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.10) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Graham wrote: > On 17 Mar 2005, at 9:58 pm, Tim Bray wrote: > >> [[anchor7: discussion of white space]] >> >> There were a couple of failed white-space Paces, just take this out. > > I disagree - the Pace I wrote was about whitespace within content, > whereas that anchor is in a section about document syntax. I know there > are RSS users who think thinks like rel=" alternate " are acceptable. > Some discussion of this would be useful. Refering to http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#AVNormalize, it seems to me that rel=" alternate " should be processed as rel="alternate", because (in my opinion) the rel attribute should be declared of type NMTOKENS, and not CDATA. ...maybe just giving a DTD in addition to the RNG schema would be sufficient... -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 18 02:55:57 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA04494 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 02:55:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I7m0DR071279; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:48:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2I7m0nT071278; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:48:00 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.versatel.nl (smtp1.versatel.nl [62.58.50.88]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I7lwOO071235 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:47:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fora@annevankesteren.nl) Received: (qmail 8621 invoked by uid 10); 18 Mar 2005 07:47:52 -0000 Received: (vexira-qq 08614-C834F7E2 invoked from network) 18 Mar 2005 08:47:52 +0100 Received: from unknown (HELO [127.0.0.1]) ([81.59.155.152]) (envelope-sender ) by smtp1.versatel.nl (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for < >; 18 Mar 2005 07:47:52 -0000 Message-ID: <423A87B2.3020806@annevankesteren.nl> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 08:48:02 +0100 From: Anne van Kesteren User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Bray CC: "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" Subject: Re: s/url/web/ References: <6af7ee6d830644cf299f390a2847a6b2@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <6af7ee6d830644cf299f390a2847a6b2@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiVirus: checked by Vexira MailArmor (version: 2.0.1.16; VAE: 6.30.0.2; VDF: 6.30.0.11; host: postbode01.zonnet.nl) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > > EDITORIAL: > > There are a couple of places where we use "uri" in the markup, > specifically the "atom:uri" element (3.2.2) and the "uri" attribute of > "atom:generator" (4.2.5). > > In both cases they're not actually URIs, they're IRIs, so the name is > WRONG, except for nobody knows what an IRI is so renaming them "iri" > would be confusing, and anyhow everyone thinks of URLs not *RIs, but > naming them "url" would be wrong too, so why don't we actually change > them to say what they're there for not what their syntax is and use > "web" in both cases? -Tim Web Forms 2 uses |type="uri"| as well. (It accepts IRIs.) -- Anne van Kesteren From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 18 04:34:58 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA13273 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 04:34:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I9OsN8008910; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 01:24:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2I9Osqn008909; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 01:24:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2I9OsxU008899 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 01:24:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danbri@w3.org) Received: by homer.w3.org (Postfix, from userid 13522) id 7B0564F0C2; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 04:24:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 04:24:53 -0500 From: Dan Brickley To: Tim Bray Cc: "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" Subject: Re: s/url/web/ Message-ID: <20050318092453.GD26039@homer.w3.org> References: <6af7ee6d830644cf299f390a2847a6b2@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6af7ee6d830644cf299f390a2847a6b2@sun.com> X-FOAF: http://danbri.org/foaf.rdf User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * Tim Bray [2005-03-17 16:27-0800] > > EDITORIAL: > > There are a couple of places where we use "uri" in the markup, > specifically the "atom:uri" element (3.2.2) and the "uri" attribute of > "atom:generator" (4.2.5). > > In both cases they're not actually URIs, they're IRIs, so the name is > WRONG, except for nobody knows what an IRI is so renaming them "iri" > would be confusing, and anyhow everyone thinks of URLs not *RIs, but > naming them "url" would be wrong too, so why don't we actually change > them to say what they're there for not what their syntax is and use > "web" in both cases? -Tim +1 Dan ps. 'email' in the Person construct could also be handled by 'web' (or 'url/uri/iri') using the mailto: scheme, if only multiple of these were allowed per person-like-thing. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 18 05:22:28 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA16889 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 05:22:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IACwYk027652; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 02:12:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2IACwXv027651; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 02:12:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j2IACvU1027610 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 02:12:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from derhoermi@gmx.net) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 18 Mar 2005 10:12:51 -0000 Received: from dsl-084-056-225-029.arcor-ip.net (EHLO helix) [84.56.225.29] by mail.gmx.net (mp002) with SMTP; 18 Mar 2005 11:12:51 +0100 X-Authenticated: #723575 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann To: Tim Bray Cc: "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" Subject: Re: s/url/web/ Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:13:06 +0100 Message-ID: <4268a979.810854468@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> References: <6af7ee6d830644cf299f390a2847a6b2@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <6af7ee6d830644cf299f390a2847a6b2@sun.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit * Tim Bray wrote: >There are a couple of places where we use "uri" in the markup, >specifically the "atom:uri" element (3.2.2) and the "uri" attribute of >"atom:generator" (4.2.5). > >In both cases they're not actually URIs, they're IRIs, so the name is >WRONG, except for nobody knows what an IRI is so renaming them "iri" >would be confusing, and anyhow everyone thinks of URLs not *RIs, but >naming them "url" would be wrong too, so why don't we actually change >them to say what they're there for not what their syntax is and use >"web" in both cases? -Tim We can call those "at" or "about" or "internet" but certainly not "web". -- Björn Höhrmann · mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de Weinh. Str. 22 · Telefon: +49(0)621/4309674 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de 68309 Mannheim · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.websitedev.de/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 18 05:54:04 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA19807 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 05:54:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IAiYFg037208; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 02:44:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2IAiYuO037207; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 02:44:34 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IAiXGn037197 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 02:44:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danbri@w3.org) Received: by homer.w3.org (Postfix, from userid 13522) id 255014F0C2; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 05:44:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 05:44:33 -0500 From: Dan Brickley To: Bjoern Hoehrmann Cc: Tim Bray , "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" Subject: Re: s/url/web/ Message-ID: <20050318104433.GH26039@homer.w3.org> References: <6af7ee6d830644cf299f390a2847a6b2@sun.com> <4268a979.810854468@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4268a979.810854468@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> X-FOAF: http://danbri.org/foaf.rdf User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * Bjoern Hoehrmann [2005-03-18 11:13+0100] > > * Tim Bray wrote: > >There are a couple of places where we use "uri" in the markup, > >specifically the "atom:uri" element (3.2.2) and the "uri" attribute of > >"atom:generator" (4.2.5). > > > >In both cases they're not actually URIs, they're IRIs, so the name is > >WRONG, except for nobody knows what an IRI is so renaming them "iri" > >would be confusing, and anyhow everyone thinks of URLs not *RIs, but > >naming them "url" would be wrong too, so why don't we actually change > >them to say what they're there for not what their syntax is and use > >"web" in both cases? -Tim > > We can call those "at" or "about" or "internet" but certainly not "web". While we're at it, we can relive 10-15 years of URN vs URI debates on the Atom list instead of shipping product. Are you appealing to some notion of 'online' versus 'offline' resource? A spec could be cited from the formal Atom spec? Such distinctions are notoriously hard to maintain... If you want to add an implicit (and imho illadviced) notion of 'URI dereferencability' into the spec, it'd be good to see candidate text for inclusion, rather than doing it via attribute/element name choice. Note that the deferencability of identifiers changes over time, as infrastructure is deployed (or rots away); eg. DOIs, gopher:, java: URIs... Dan From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 18 06:15:45 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA21782 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 06:15:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IB95q4046783; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 03:09:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2IB95ux046781; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 03:09:05 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j2IB93nR046627 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 03:09:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from derhoermi@gmx.net) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 18 Mar 2005 11:08:58 -0000 Received: from dsl-084-056-225-029.arcor-ip.net (EHLO helix) [84.56.225.29] by mail.gmx.net (mp007) with SMTP; 18 Mar 2005 12:08:58 +0100 X-Authenticated: #723575 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann To: Dan Brickley Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: s/url/web/ Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:09:13 +0100 Message-ID: <426bb44f.813628015@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> References: <6af7ee6d830644cf299f390a2847a6b2@sun.com> <4268a979.810854468@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <20050318104433.GH26039@homer.w3.org> In-Reply-To: <20050318104433.GH26039@homer.w3.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit * Dan Brickley wrote: >> >In both cases they're not actually URIs, they're IRIs, so the name is >> >WRONG, except for nobody knows what an IRI is so renaming them "iri" >> >would be confusing, and anyhow everyone thinks of URLs not *RIs, but >> >naming them "url" would be wrong too, so why don't we actually change >> >them to say what they're there for not what their syntax is and use >> >"web" in both cases? -Tim >> >> We can call those "at" or "about" or "internet" but certainly not "web". > >While we're at it, we can relive 10-15 years of URN vs URI debates on the >Atom list instead of shipping product. Are you appealing to some notion of >'online' versus 'offline' resource? A spec could be cited from the formal >Atom spec? Such distinctions are notoriously hard to maintain... If you >want to add an implicit (and imho illadviced) notion of >'URI dereferencability' into the spec, it'd be good to see candidate >text for inclusion, rather than doing it via attribute/element name >choice. Note that the deferencability of identifiers changes over time, >as infrastructure is deployed (or rots away); eg. DOIs, gopher:, java: URIs... I do not really understand what you are trying to ask or say here. I suppose you object to call those elements and attributes anything but "web" for some reason or you object to the alternate names I suggested. In case of the latter you seem to somehow think that at/about/internet suggests what you call "dereferencability" while "web" does not. That would not make much sense to me, so I fail to get your point. -- Björn Höhrmann · mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de Weinh. Str. 22 · Telefon: +49(0)621/4309674 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de 68309 Mannheim · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.websitedev.de/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 18 06:31:14 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA23036 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 06:31:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IBOl1n052561; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 03:24:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2IBOlcl052560; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 03:24:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IBOkux052550 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 03:24:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danbri@w3.org) Received: by homer.w3.org (Postfix, from userid 13522) id 7B3B34F0C2; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 06:24:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 06:24:46 -0500 From: Dan Brickley To: Bjoern Hoehrmann Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: s/url/web/ Message-ID: <20050318112446.GM26039@homer.w3.org> References: <6af7ee6d830644cf299f390a2847a6b2@sun.com> <4268a979.810854468@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <20050318104433.GH26039@homer.w3.org> <426bb44f.813628015@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <426bb44f.813628015@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> X-FOAF: http://danbri.org/foaf.rdf User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * Bjoern Hoehrmann [2005-03-18 12:09+0100] > * Dan Brickley wrote: > >> >In both cases they're not actually URIs, they're IRIs, so the name is > >> >WRONG, except for nobody knows what an IRI is so renaming them "iri" > >> >would be confusing, and anyhow everyone thinks of URLs not *RIs, but > >> >naming them "url" would be wrong too, so why don't we actually change > >> >them to say what they're there for not what their syntax is and use > >> >"web" in both cases? -Tim > >> > >> We can call those "at" or "about" or "internet" but certainly not "web". > > > >While we're at it, we can relive 10-15 years of URN vs URI debates on the > >Atom list instead of shipping product. Are you appealing to some notion of > >'online' versus 'offline' resource? A spec could be cited from the formal > >Atom spec? Such distinctions are notoriously hard to maintain... If you > >want to add an implicit (and imho illadviced) notion of > >'URI dereferencability' into the spec, it'd be good to see candidate > >text for inclusion, rather than doing it via attribute/element name > >choice. Note that the deferencability of identifiers changes over time, > >as infrastructure is deployed (or rots away); eg. DOIs, gopher:, java: URIs... > > I do not really understand what you are trying to ask or say here. I > suppose you object to call those elements and attributes anything but > "web" for some reason or you object to the alternate names I suggested. > In case of the latter you seem to somehow think that at/about/internet > suggests what you call "dereferencability" while "web" does not. That > would not make much sense to me, so I fail to get your point. Maybe I misread your intent, in that case. You objected strongly ("certainly not...") without giving any supporting reason. Could you elaborate on the reasoning behind your objection to "web"? URIs and IRIs are the way we identify things (on, in, to and for...) the Web. So "web" to me seems natural. If the construct is only for identifying a subset of things, then some other name might be more appropriate. I read you as taking that latter position. Dan From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 18 09:00:49 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA08712 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:00:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IDoElS003924; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 05:50:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2IDoEL2003923; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 05:50:14 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.dnainternet.net (smtp2.dnainternet.net [62.240.72.111]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IDoDSj003910 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 05:50:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hsivonen@iki.fi) Received: from 217-140-228-104.adsl-net.finnetcom.net ([217.140.228.104]:59590 "EHLO [217.140.228.104]" TLS-CIPHER: ) by smtp2.dnainternet.net with ESMTP id S1228733AbVCRNuM (ORCPT ); Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:50:12 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: <1693.82.127.77.43.1111131884.squirrel@ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com> References: <4977edec4182ebd6cd3e17a0472545ff@mac.com> <1693.82.127.77.43.1111131884.squirrel@ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <4467d9a941e422a0aa823479c352a533@iki.fi> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henri Sivonen Subject: Re: White-space in attribute values [was: Outstanding work on format draft] Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:50:05 +0200 To: Atom Syntax X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mar 18, 2005, at 09:44, Thomas Broyer wrote: > ...maybe just giving a DTD in addition to the RNG schema would be > sufficient... Not everyone is going to use a DTD even if provided, so providing a DTD would cause harm, because parsers would report different things depending on the use of the DTD. -- Henri Sivonen hsivonen@iki.fi http://hsivonen.iki.fi/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 18 10:31:57 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA18176 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:31:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IFNDIj014031; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:23:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2IFNDAa014030; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:23:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf01.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.80]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IFNCD4014017 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:23:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from cegetel.net (217-19-192-103.dti.cegetel.net [217.19.192.103]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with SMTP id A4EC037B48 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:23:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from 82.127.77.43 (SquirrelMail authenticated user t.broyer@cegetel.net) by ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com with HTTP; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:23:06 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <2809.82.127.77.43.1111159386.squirrel@ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:23:06 +0100 (CET) Subject: Person "identity" From: "Thomas Broyer" To: X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.10) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi there, It seems something's missing about authors and contributors... This is allowed: Thomas Broyer Thomas Broyer ... as well as: Thomas Broyer Thomas Broyer or even (less obvious): Thomas Broyer Broyer, Thomas T. Broyer or Thomas Broyer thomas@home.example.net Thomas Broyer t.broyer@work.example.com Thomas Broyer i.am.an.homonym@example.org There's no way in Atom to indentify persons as the same person or just homonyms! We also can't store a feed/entry _efficiently_ in a relational database or an object graph. There's no way for a processor to tell its user which other entries (in the same feed or even in other feeds!) have been authored or contributed by the same person (think about the "by the same author" in printed books). PacePersonRef would have solved part of the problem (identifying other entries authored or contributed by someone in the same feed; but not in any feed). I propose adding an optional atom:id element to the Person construct content model, with the following rules (to be reworded before adding into the spec): a) There MUST NOT exists more than one contributor with the same id in an entry of feed b) There MUST NOT exists a contributor with the same id as the author in an entry or feed c) Each Person construct (in a feed) refering to the same person/organization/etc. SHOULD be identical (same value for atom:name, atom:id, atom:email and atom:uri; and if, e.g., atom:email is given, it SHOULD appear in each of these Person construct) d) Person constructs refering to different persons/organizations/etc. SHOULD use different atom:name values all over the feed/entry e) atom:id SHOULD be provided if known but MUST NOT be generated automatically "just to provide one" or be given without the actual person/organization/etc. aknowledgement (as it is a _globally_ unique identifier). The main impact is the validation of the above rules, otherwise, the impact is rather reduced. As I already said, this would greatly help storing feeds efficiently in databases or object graphs. Any comment? -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 18 10:47:05 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA19799 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:47:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IFfDrs015736; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:41:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2IFfDCx015735; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:41:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IFfDPO015719 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:41:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-247-97.client.comcast.net[67.169.247.97]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <2005031815410701500ejgmte>; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:41:07 +0000 Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 08:41:06 -0700 Subject: Re: s/url/web/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <20050318112446.GM26039@homer.w3.org> Message-Id: <24398F5C-97C4-11D9-8026-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Friday, March 18, 2005, at 04:24 AM, Dan Brickley wrote: > URIs and IRIs are the way we identify things > (on, in, to and for...) the Web. So "web" to me seems natural. I think the question is which of these is meant by "the web": a) HTML over HTTP(S), plus images and other things that get rendered in HTML documents b) everything with a URL, and the network those things are accessed over c) the internet c) has entered common usage, at least among the general populous, but technically, a) or b) would be more accurate. I've always thought of "the web" as a), but while a) is certainly the core of the web, I suppose it makes sense to think that "the web" encompasses other things that a) is able to connect you to. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 18 11:04:52 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA21807 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:04:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IFue6G017007; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:56:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2IFueTg017006; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:56:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc14.comcast.net (rwcrmhc14.comcast.net [216.148.227.89]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IFudBh016998 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:56:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-247-97.client.comcast.net[67.169.247.97]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc14) with SMTP id <20050318155634014001fsofe>; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:56:34 +0000 Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 08:56:33 -0700 Subject: Re: Person "identity" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <2809.82.127.77.43.1111159386.squirrel@ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com> Message-Id: <4CD371F1-97C6-11D9-8026-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Friday, March 18, 2005, at 08:23 AM, Thomas Broyer wrote: > I propose adding an optional atom:id element to the Person construct > content model, If it's not too late, I wouldn't be opposed to this, but I'm not sure I agree entirely with the specific rules. > with the following rules (to be reworded before adding into > the spec): > a) There MUST NOT exists more than one contributor with the same id > in an > entry of feed +1 as long as this doesn't mean that you can't have duplicate IDs in a single entry or at the feed level, but that the same ID CAN exist in different entries, or at the feed level AND in entries. I imagine this is what you mean, but just to be sure it's clear... > b) There MUST NOT exists a contributor with the same id as the author > in > an entry or feed +1 with the same condition as above > c) Each Person construct (in a feed) refering to the same > person/organization/etc. SHOULD be identical (same value for atom:name, > atom:id, atom:email and atom:uri; and if, e.g., atom:email is given, it > SHOULD appear in each of these Person construct) I'm not sure I'd agree with this for a few reasons: 1) A person acting in a different role as the author of a particular entry, for example, might want to use a different email address, URI, etc. If we specify that that person SHOULD have a different atom:id for their different roles if that role would affect the appropriate values for the other Person construct children, then okay. 2) I don't think we should require (or virtually require) that each Person construct sharing an ID contain the same set of child elements. But we could say that the values of any child elements that ARE included SHOULD be identical. > d) Person constructs refering to different persons/organizations/etc. > SHOULD use different atom:name values all over the feed/entry -1. What if two people named John Smith contribute an entry to the same feed? Does one have to alter their name? Having a different ID, or one having an ID and the other not having one should be how the distinction is made. > e) atom:id SHOULD be provided if known but MUST NOT be generated > automatically "just to provide one" or be given without the actual > person/organization/etc. aknowledgement (as it is a _globally_ unique > identifier). +1. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 18 11:04:56 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA21828 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:04:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IFuNZs016982; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:56:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2IFuNbj016981; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:56:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail07.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail07.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j2IFuMRo016968 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:56:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 73878 messnum 2890885 invoked from network[83.70.250.89/83-70-250-89.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 18 Mar 2005 15:56:17 -0000 Received: from 83-70-250-89.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?192.168.123.125?) (83.70.250.89) by mail07.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 73878) with SMTP; 18 Mar 2005 15:56:17 -0000 Message-ID: <423AFA1F.9050908@dehora.net> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:56:15 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: s/url/web/ References: <6af7ee6d830644cf299f390a2847a6b2@sun.com> <4268a979.810854468@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <20050318104433.GH26039@homer.w3.org> <426bb44f.813628015@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <20050318112446.GM26039@homer.w3.org> In-Reply-To: <20050318112446.GM26039@homer.w3.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan Brickley wrote: > * Bjoern Hoehrmann [2005-03-18 12:09+0100] > >> >> >>I do not really understand what you are trying to ask or say here. I >>suppose you object to call those elements and attributes anything but >>"web" for some reason or you object to the alternate names I suggested. >>In case of the latter you seem to somehow think that at/about/internet >>suggests what you call "dereferencability" while "web" does not. That >>would not make much sense to me, so I fail to get your point. > > > Maybe I misread your intent, in that case. You objected strongly > ("certainly not...") without giving any supporting reason. Could > you elaborate on the reasoning behind your objection to "web"? > > URIs and IRIs are the way we identify things > (on, in, to and for...) the Web. So "web" to me seems natural. If > the construct is only for identifying a subset of things, then some > other name might be more appropriate. I read you as taking that > latter position. atom:www seems just as natural by that reasoning... If there is a problem with marking up what used to be URIs and which are now IRIs using 'atom:uri' the renaming choice should be then be obvious (note, there is a big assumption about there being a problem in the first place). To no-one in particular: trying to ride pet monikers into the spec as this stage is bogus. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 18 12:20:33 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA29741 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:20:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IGOPFb019123; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 08:24:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2IGOPiF019122; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 08:24:25 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IGOOTl019115 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 08:24:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danbri@w3.org) Received: by homer.w3.org (Postfix, from userid 13522) id 7E30D4F1D2; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:24:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:24:24 -0500 From: Dan Brickley To: Antone Roundy Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: s/url/web/ Message-ID: <20050318162424.GW26039@homer.w3.org> References: <20050318112446.GM26039@homer.w3.org> <24398F5C-97C4-11D9-8026-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <24398F5C-97C4-11D9-8026-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-FOAF: http://danbri.org/foaf.rdf User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * Antone Roundy [2005-03-18 08:41-0700] > > On Friday, March 18, 2005, at 04:24 AM, Dan Brickley wrote: > >URIs and IRIs are the way we identify things > >(on, in, to and for...) the Web. So "web" to me seems natural. > > I think the question is which of these is meant by "the web": > > a) HTML over HTTP(S), plus images and other things that get rendered in > HTML documents > b) everything with a URL, and the network those things are accessed over > c) the internet I encourage Atom to follow the WebArch REC, let's call it (d), http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#intro [[ The World Wide Web (WWW, or simply Web) is an information space in which the items of interest, referred to as resources, are identified by global identifiers called Uniform Resource Identifiers (URI). ]] > c) has entered common usage, at least among the general populous, but > technically, a) or b) would be more accurate. I've always thought of > "the web" as a), but while a) is certainly the core of the web, I > suppose it makes sense to think that "the web" encompasses other things > that a) is able to connect you to. Yes, I think that's the webarch line too. If HTTP went away, and we all used ftp:, freenet: or gopher: systems, and wrote our docs in SVG instead, it'd still be the Web. So (a) is the current core of the Web only in very pragmatic, market-based terms. You're also right that (c) is common usage. I've lately taken to asking non-geeks about their use of "the Web". Often as not, they respond with "what, you mean The Internet? yeah, I use that, ...". Going with Webarch's (d), I think fits with using 'web' within the Atom spec... it's neutral in ways that avoid debates that typically chew up time on the URI mailing list. Dan From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 18 12:20:38 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA29783 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:20:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IHDGoW022819; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:13:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2IHDGjm022818; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:13:16 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IHDFq3022811 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:13:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IHDFRr027667 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:13:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IDK00B48562RI@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:13:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.17] ([216.113.204.232]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IDK00B4H561CN@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:13:14 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:13:22 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: White-space in attribute values [was: Outstanding work on format draft] In-reply-to: <4467d9a941e422a0aa823479c352a533@iki.fi> To: Henri Sivonen Cc: Atom Syntax Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <4977edec4182ebd6cd3e17a0472545ff@mac.com> <1693.82.127.77.43.1111131884.squirrel@ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com> <4467d9a941e422a0aa823479c352a533@iki.fi> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mar 18, 2005, at 5:50 AM, Henri Sivonen wrote: >> ...maybe just giving a DTD in addition to the RNG schema would be >> sufficient... > > Not everyone is going to use a DTD even if provided, so providing a > DTD would cause harm, because parsers would report different things > depending on the use of the DTD. +1 on "no DTD". -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 18 12:32:51 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA01856 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:32:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IHRJ1L023957; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:27:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2IHRJQ7023956; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:27:19 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j2IHRIT9023939 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:27:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from derhoermi@gmx.net) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 18 Mar 2005 17:27:12 -0000 Received: from dsl-084-056-230-126.arcor-ip.net (EHLO helix) [84.56.230.126] by mail.gmx.net (mp016) with SMTP; 18 Mar 2005 18:27:12 +0100 X-Authenticated: #723575 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann To: Dan Brickley Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: s/url/web/ Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:27:27 +0100 Message-ID: <426d0d2a.836375437@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> References: <6af7ee6d830644cf299f390a2847a6b2@sun.com> <4268a979.810854468@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <20050318104433.GH26039@homer.w3.org> <426bb44f.813628015@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <20050318112446.GM26039@homer.w3.org> In-Reply-To: <20050318112446.GM26039@homer.w3.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit * Dan Brickley wrote: >Maybe I misread your intent, in that case. You objected strongly >("certainly not...") without giving any supporting reason. Could >you elaborate on the reasoning behind your objection to "web"? "To specify the author of an entry use the author element. You can then use the name child element to specify the name of the author, the email child element to specify the email of the author, and the web child element to specify the web of the author." That's crazy Frontpage-speak. -- Björn Höhrmann · mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de Weinh. Str. 22 · Telefon: +49(0)621/4309674 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de 68309 Mannheim · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.websitedev.de/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 18 13:13:03 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA05471 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:13:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2II7MVb026738; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:07:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2II7MWN026737; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:07:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2II7L1h026731 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:07:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danbri@w3.org) Received: by homer.w3.org (Postfix, from userid 13522) id 15B324F1D2; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:07:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:07:21 -0500 From: Dan Brickley To: Bjoern Hoehrmann Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: s/url/web/ Message-ID: <20050318180720.GC26039@homer.w3.org> References: <6af7ee6d830644cf299f390a2847a6b2@sun.com> <4268a979.810854468@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <20050318104433.GH26039@homer.w3.org> <426bb44f.813628015@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <20050318112446.GM26039@homer.w3.org> <426d0d2a.836375437@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <426d0d2a.836375437@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> X-FOAF: http://danbri.org/foaf.rdf User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * Bjoern Hoehrmann [2005-03-18 18:27+0100] > * Dan Brickley wrote: > >Maybe I misread your intent, in that case. You objected strongly > >("certainly not...") without giving any supporting reason. Could > >you elaborate on the reasoning behind your objection to "web"? > > "To specify the author of an entry use the author element. You can then > use the name child element to specify the name of the author, the email > child element to specify the email of the author, and the web child > element to specify the web of the author." That's crazy Frontpage-speak. That's because the underlying semantics of the element are vague. The name matches the current semantics. Shoot something other than the messenger! If we mean homepage-or-blog, let's say so. If we mean social security number, let's say so. If we mean phone number, let's say so. If we mean DNAchecksum, lets say so. Currently, all of those things could be represented in the Web using URIs/IRIs, and could fit in that field quite nicely. Dan From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 18 13:39:52 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA08681 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:39:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IIVZFj028325; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:31:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2IIVZ62028324; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:31:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j2IIVYnq028316 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:31:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from derhoermi@gmx.net) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 18 Mar 2005 18:31:28 -0000 Received: from dsl-084-056-230-126.arcor-ip.net (EHLO helix) [84.56.230.126] by mail.gmx.net (mp013) with SMTP; 18 Mar 2005 19:31:28 +0100 X-Authenticated: #723575 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann To: Dan Brickley Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: s/url/web/ Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:31:43 +0100 Message-ID: <423b1b9d.840074218@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> References: <20050318112446.GM26039@homer.w3.org> <24398F5C-97C4-11D9-8026-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <20050318162424.GW26039@homer.w3.org> In-Reply-To: <20050318162424.GW26039@homer.w3.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit * Dan Brickley wrote: >> I think the question is which of these is meant by "the web": >I encourage Atom to follow the WebArch REC, let's call it (d), >http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#intro >[[ >The World Wide Web (WWW, or simply Web) is an information space in which >the items of interest, referred to as resources, are identified by >global identifiers called Uniform Resource Identifiers (URI). >]] Let's ignore that not all IRIs are URIs and let's assume that this is a definition of "Web", are you saying that this definition is equivalent to 'the set of all URIs is the information space "Web"'? If those are not equivalent I am not sure what you are suggesting here. -- Björn Höhrmann · mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de Weinh. Str. 22 · Telefon: +49(0)621/4309674 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de 68309 Mannheim · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.websitedev.de/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 18 13:47:47 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA09476 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:47:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IIg9Q9028974; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:42:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2IIg9IW028973; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:42:09 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IIg8Ke028965 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:42:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danbri@w3.org) Received: by homer.w3.org (Postfix, from userid 13522) id F326D4F1EF; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:42:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:42:04 -0500 From: Dan Brickley To: Bjoern Hoehrmann Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: s/url/web/ Message-ID: <20050318184204.GE26039@homer.w3.org> References: <20050318112446.GM26039@homer.w3.org> <24398F5C-97C4-11D9-8026-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <20050318162424.GW26039@homer.w3.org> <423b1b9d.840074218@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <423b1b9d.840074218@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> X-FOAF: http://danbri.org/foaf.rdf User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * Bjoern Hoehrmann [2005-03-18 19:31+0100] > * Dan Brickley wrote: > >> I think the question is which of these is meant by "the web": > > >I encourage Atom to follow the WebArch REC, let's call it (d), > >http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#intro > >[[ > >The World Wide Web (WWW, or simply Web) is an information space in which > >the items of interest, referred to as resources, are identified by > >global identifiers called Uniform Resource Identifiers (URI). > >]] > > Let's ignore that not all IRIs are URIs and let's assume that this is a > definition of "Web", are you saying that this definition is equivalent > to 'the set of all URIs is the information space "Web"'? If those are > not equivalent I am not sure what you are suggesting here. The definition says, in effect, "The Web is an information space in which we use URIs when identifying things". It does not rule out other, complementary, identification mechanisms, nor does it equate the Web with any specific set of entities. It is an over-arching abstraction, not a set of URI-named things, nor the set of URIs. I guess it is (and I cringe at the word), a bit like "cyberspace". Nobody really expects there to be real answers to "how many things are 'in' cyberspace?", since that is over-stretching the metaphor. Same with Web, I think. Dan From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 18 13:53:53 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA10111 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:53:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IImR0W029410; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:48:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2IImR08029409; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:48:27 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IImQmF029403 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:48:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ndw@nwalsh.com) Received: from phys-bur-2 ([129.148.9.73]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IImPRr026621 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:48:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from conversion-daemon.bur-mail1.east.sun.com by bur-mail1.east.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0IDK00I019FHH0@bur-mail1.east.sun.com> (original mail from ndw@nwalsh.com) for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:48:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (vpn-129-150-34-245.Central.Sun.COM [129.150.34.245]) by bur-mail1.east.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0IDK000F49KLO2@bur-mail1.east.sun.com>; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:48:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from ndw by localhost with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DCJhg-0002qm-S3; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:48:00 -0500 X-URL: http://nwalsh.com/ Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:47:55 -0500 From: Norman Walsh Subject: Broken RELAX NG Grammar in Appendix B of draft-06 To: Mark Nottingham Cc: David Pawson , atom-syntax@imc.org Message-id: <87br9h3qhg.fsf@nwalsh.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FYI: There are several problems with the RELAX NG Grammar in Appendix B. Most have to do with line-wrapping (which doesn't work in exactly the obvious way in the compact syntax) but there's also a missing double quote in atomInlineTextContent and the definition of atomId has lost some content. I'll provide a new version for 06 that is formatted for 72 column wide pages. Be seeing you, norm =2D-=20 Norman Walsh | Mountains appear more lofty the nearer http://nwalsh.com/ | they are approached, but great men | resemble them not in this | particular.--Lady Blessington --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBCOvgrOyltUcwYWjsRAhW+AJ9o8dEn3Tcs1jsxNQthQxz0J7MTfgCeKjw4 YDRlqYeVnSo56cvn8gl9ubg= =9da/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 18 14:03:11 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA11310 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:03:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IIuFXI029964; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:56:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2IIuFRL029963; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:56:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IIuE8N029957 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:56:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0cdfl9t.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.213.61] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DCMdg-0002vz-Ai; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:56:04 +0000 Message-ID: <423B245B.9090001@franklinmint.fm> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:56:27 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Norman Walsh CC: Mark Nottingham , David Pawson , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Broken RELAX NG Grammar in Appendix B of draft-06 References: <87br9h3qhg.fsf@nwalsh.com> In-Reply-To: <87br9h3qhg.fsf@nwalsh.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Norman Walsh wrote: > FYI: > > There are several problems with the RELAX NG Grammar in Appendix B. > Most have to do with line-wrapping (which doesn't work in exactly the > obvious way in the compact syntax) but there's also a missing double > quote in atomInlineTextContent and the definition of atomId has lost > some content. These are all my mistakes. One question: Julian has repeatedly had problems with the schematron parts. Is this related to the line-wrapping? If not, I'm kind of worried that someone like Julian couldn't make it work. > > I'll provide a new version for 06 that is formatted for 72 column wide > pages. Thank you very much, the group really appreciates it. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 18 14:15:43 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA12608 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:15:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IJ8OD5030849; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:08:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2IJ8Olj030848; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:08:24 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j2IJ8McE030830 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:08:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from derhoermi@gmx.net) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 18 Mar 2005 19:08:17 -0000 Received: from dsl-084-056-230-126.arcor-ip.net (EHLO helix) [84.56.230.126] by mail.gmx.net (mp001) with SMTP; 18 Mar 2005 20:08:17 +0100 X-Authenticated: #723575 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann To: Dan Brickley Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: s/url/web/ Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 20:08:32 +0100 Message-ID: <423c21ee.841690921@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> References: <20050318112446.GM26039@homer.w3.org> <24398F5C-97C4-11D9-8026-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <20050318162424.GW26039@homer.w3.org> <423b1b9d.840074218@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <20050318184204.GE26039@homer.w3.org> In-Reply-To: <20050318184204.GE26039@homer.w3.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit * Dan Brickley wrote: >The definition says, in effect, "The Web is an information space in >which we use URIs when identifying things". It does not rule out >other, complementary, identification mechanisms, nor does it equate the >Web with any specific set of entities. Right, nor does it say that an item of interest identified by a "Uniform Resource Identifier" is in this information space. People not familiar with IRIs do not consider items of interest on their local hard drive identified by a file:/// URL items in the information space "web" and would consequently think that using file:/// is improper use of the element. That's not the case, so we have -- wrong -- unknown to many users -- misleading to many users I suggest confronting users with something unknown is better than misleading them. -- Björn Höhrmann · mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de Weinh. Str. 22 · Telefon: +49(0)621/4309674 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de 68309 Mannheim · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.websitedev.de/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 18 15:25:09 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA21862 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:25:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IKFkXP036280; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:15:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2IKFkUR036279; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:15:46 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IKFjGG036263 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:15:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ndw@nwalsh.com) Received: from phys-bur-2 ([129.148.9.73]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IKFjRt007552 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:15:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from conversion-daemon.bur-mail1.east.sun.com by bur-mail1.east.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0IDK00901DHJF6@bur-mail1.east.sun.com> (original mail from ndw@nwalsh.com) for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:15:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (vpn-129-150-35-22.Central.Sun.COM [129.150.35.22]) by bur-mail1.east.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0IDK0058HDM80P@bur-mail1.east.sun.com>; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:15:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from ndw by localhost with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DCNsj-0003sd-RF; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:15:41 -0500 X-URL: http://nwalsh.com/ Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:15:39 -0500 From: Norman Walsh Subject: Re: Broken RELAX NG Grammar in Appendix B of draft-06 In-reply-to: <423B245B.9090001@franklinmint.fm> To: Robert Sayre Cc: Mark Nottingham , David Pawson , atom-syntax@imc.org Message-id: <87acp01zis.fsf@nwalsh.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) References: <87br9h3qhg.fsf@nwalsh.com> <423B245B.9090001@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable / Robert Sayre was heard to say: | Norman Walsh wrote: |> FYI: |> There are several problems with the RELAX NG Grammar in Appendix B. |> Most have to do with line-wrapping (which doesn't work in exactly the |> obvious way in the compact syntax) but there's also a missing double |> quote in atomInlineTextContent and the definition of atomId has lost |> some content. | | These are all my mistakes. One question: Julian has repeatedly had | problems with the schematron parts. Is this related to the | line-wrapping? If not, I'm kind of worried that someone like Julian | couldn't make it work. The line wrapping breaks everything, so maybe. I'll make sure I test them again before I send another version of the schema. None of the validators I use most frequently actually test the Schematron assertions. :-/ |> I'll provide a new version for 06 that is formatted for 72 column |> wide |> pages. | | Thank you very much, the group really appreciates it. My pleasure. Be seeing you, norm =2D-=20 Norman Walsh | What good is a can of worms if you http://nwalsh.com/ | never open it?--Bob Arning --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBCOzbrOyltUcwYWjsRAkAzAKCCh0PesHRQVYaWUxwoIkqOVqQo2gCaA9/J SAqTqhFDRyeamBe49UGeGM0= =nm05 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 18 15:25:31 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA21953 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:25:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IKIOHK036466; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:18:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2IKIOdU036465; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:18:24 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta10-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (smtpout18.mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.18]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2IKIMqx036452 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:18:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamta06-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta10-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050318201817.RJTF12495.mta10-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta06-winn.mailhost.ntl.com>; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 20:18:17 +0000 Received: from cpc3-stke1-5-0-cust172.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([82.11.128.172]) by aamta06-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050318201817.IHVD5678.aamta06-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@cpc3-stke1-5-0-cust172.bagu.cable.ntl.com>; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 20:18:17 +0000 Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 20:18:16 +0000 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.9.7 Return (pre-beta)) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1888896396.20050318201816@djpowell.net> To: Bjoern Hoehrmann CC: Dan Brickley , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: s/url/web/ In-Reply-To: <423c21ee.841690921@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> References: <20050318112446.GM26039@homer.w3.org> <24398F5C-97C4-11D9-8026-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <20050318162424.GW26039@homer.w3.org> <423b1b9d.840074218@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <20050318184204.GE26039@homer.w3.org> <423c21ee.841690921@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Friday, March 18, 2005, 7:08:32 PM, Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: > -- wrong > -- unknown to many users > -- misleading to many users > I suggest confronting users with something unknown is better than > misleading them. How about something with less meaning attached to it, such as "ref"? -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 18 19:48:14 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA28409 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:48:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2J0dBkM055581; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:39:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2J0dB5B055580; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:39:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta13-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (smtpout19.mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.19]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2J0d9Pj055571 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:39:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamta07-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta13-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050319003859.KAOU2577.mta13-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta07-winn.mailhost.ntl.com> for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:38:59 +0000 Received: from cpc3-stke1-5-0-cust172.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([82.11.128.172]) by aamta07-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050319003859.FYKK10174.aamta07-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@cpc3-stke1-5-0-cust172.bagu.cable.ntl.com> for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:38:59 +0000 Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:38:58 +0000 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.9.7 Return (pre-beta)) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <529041090.20050319003858@djpowell.net> To: Atom-Syntax Subject: IRI references to images MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j2J0dBPj055575 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From draft-06: > The "atom:icon" element's content is an IRI [RFC3987] which > identifies an image which provides iconic visual identification for > a feed > The "atom:image" element's content is an IRI [RFC3987] which > identifies an image which provides visual identific I think these should both be IRI references, not IRIs. -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Mar 19 03:57:30 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA26565 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 03:57:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2J8lKHT051455; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:47:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2J8lKnK051454; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:47:20 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2J8lJst051433 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:47:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 7062 invoked by uid 17064); 19 Mar 2005 08:47:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.6]) ([83.112.237.77]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 19 Mar 2005 08:47:18 -0000 In-Reply-To: <2809.82.127.77.43.1111159386.squirrel@ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com> References: <2809.82.127.77.43.1111159386.squirrel@ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <208df2966140eb8a2112942cb92feca0@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Atom Syntax , Tim Bray From: Henry Story Subject: Re: Person "identity" Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:47:17 +0100 To: "Thomas Broyer" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I like this - even though I disagree with the constraints - as it follows nicely on the parallel I developed in the Madonna example [1] between personal identity and entry identity. Clearly if the same atom:id were to be used then we are identifying the id that appears in an entry and the id that would appear in the Person construct. But I have argued that the relation between an entry and the relation of atom:id is a functional one, ie: - that an entry can only have one atom:id relation to an id construct - that an id construct can have many 1/atom:id (the inverse relation) relations to Entry constructs. This makes sense: entries can change over time and we wish to be able to capture this fact logically. Entries as they appear in an Atom feed are time-stamped objects. Each of these time stamped objects with the same id is a different version of the same timeless entry. This could be equally true of the Person construct and its relation to the atom:id that identifies it. But in that case we have to allow, as with entries, that things can change. So that one could have a Person construct with the same id and yet different properties (people change their e-mail address over time, live in different places, etc) In the atom case this is at present not very useful, since there are not many other properties, and since we do not time stamp, as we do with entries, the Person constructs. But this would have to be a consequence of using the same atom:id tag as we use in the entry. And so consequently the proposed restriction (c) is incompatible with the atom:id name. It is important to notice that there are two relations (at least) that relate temporally changing objects like Persons and Entries to their ids: (1) a relation that relates a temporal part of the person to the id (2) a relation that relates the unchanging mereological sum [2] of these parts to the id. (2) may be an inverse functional relation, ie: - there is only one such object related to the id construct in such a way. - there may be more than one id that identifies the same person. (2) is closer to the relation the foaf [3] folks have used to identify the Person and agent objects. And (2) is also closer to the intent of your restriction (c). Given the popularity of foaf, people may be inclined to associate the atom:Person construct with the foaf:Person. Note also that these are two different but non exclusive relations. The unchanging Person that is Tim Bray, the 4 dimensional object that exists from a certain conception moment to a certain death moment (assuming he is mortal), has many temporal parts, one or more of which may be reading this sentence. The 4 dimensional unchanging object has a relation to Tim Bray's social security number. But so of course do the temporal parts mentioned above. If we have two different descriptions of this 4 dimensional object then we can merge these descriptions and still say something true. This is not true of any of the temporal parts. One of the temporal parts reading the above sentence may be scratching his head in Vancouver and the other may be flying over California, and it would be wrong to merge the two and say that they were both in Vancouver and over California. So in conclusion either: - you have to drop (c) - or you have to give the relation a name other than atom:id Henry Story [1] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg13618.html [2] http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/mereology/ [3] http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/ On 18 Mar 2005, at 16:23, Thomas Broyer wrote: > I propose adding an optional atom:id element to the Person construct > content model, with the following rules (to be reworded before adding > into > the spec): > a) There MUST NOT exists more than one contributor with the same id > in an > entry of feed > b) There MUST NOT exists a contributor with the same id as the author > in > an entry or feed > c) Each Person construct (in a feed) refering to the same > person/organization/etc. SHOULD be identical (same value for atom:name, > atom:id, atom:email and atom:uri; and if, e.g., atom:email is given, it > SHOULD appear in each of these Person construct) > d) Person constructs refering to different persons/organizations/etc. > SHOULD use different atom:name values all over the feed/entry > e) atom:id SHOULD be provided if known but MUST NOT be generated > automatically "just to provide one" or be given without the actual > person/organization/etc. aknowledgement (as it is a _globally_ unique > identifier). From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Mar 19 06:46:45 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA12016 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:46:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2JBdLcP013674; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 03:39:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2JBdLfl013673; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 03:39:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.199]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2JBdKmM013663 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 03:39:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so186513rnz for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 03:39:20 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=hhQVzVvNdxUmY5AtaFO3oCUO5l/cfEtjTsKcGB0C501i3w1WXsts3bBIyNyaSPk6bk7PAtvuu5xnNYLmhJYZwmQFwtrcXTmEmIUd9N6fYNfMAC5GgskVdQ0sL5pb1Qg/L/ZmxTaMhtOfqxNpCXb9OfDy3vABa/uAA6FtxZJMhOI= Received: by 10.38.179.2 with SMTP id b2mr1155807rnf; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 03:39:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.25 with HTTP; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 03:39:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd05031903391d64247b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:39:20 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Henry Story Subject: Re: Person "identity" Cc: Thomas Broyer , Atom Syntax , Tim Bray In-Reply-To: <208df2966140eb8a2112942cb92feca0@bblfish.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <2809.82.127.77.43.1111159386.squirrel@ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com> <208df2966140eb8a2112942cb92feca0@bblfish.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The use cases are good, and even before you start looking at the relationship between entries and people there are limits to what you can do with the author/contributor constructs. This general issue has had 4+ years of hammering in theory and practical deployment around FOAF, which is been successfully used in RSS 1.0 feeds. This kind of data can be stored/queried reasonably efficiently in databases. There's a write-up "Identifying things in FOAF": http://rdfweb.org/mt/foaflog/archives/000039.html Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Mar 19 06:59:03 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA13064 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:59:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2JBm4KI016752; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 03:48:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2JBm4TM016751; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 03:48:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (smtpout15.mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2JBm3Bo016700 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 03:48:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050319114757.HGBD22922.mta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com>; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:47:57 +0000 Received: from cpc3-stke1-5-0-cust172.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([82.11.128.172]) by aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050319114757.DNXR1279.aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@cpc3-stke1-5-0-cust172.bagu.cable.ntl.com>; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:47:57 +0000 Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:47:54 +0000 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.9.7 Return (pre-beta)) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <894831077.20050319114754@djpowell.net> To: Norman Walsh CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Broken RELAX NG Grammar in Appendix B of draft-06 In-Reply-To: <87acp01zis.fsf@nwalsh.com> References: <87br9h3qhg.fsf@nwalsh.com> <423B245B.9090001@franklinmint.fm> <87acp01zis.fsf@nwalsh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I noticed another bug in the RNG. The collected RNG is missing a '?' after atomIcon: > atomSourceFeed = > element atom:source-feed { > atomCommonAttributes, > ( atomTitle > & atomUpdated > & atomLink+ > & atomIcon should be: > atomSourceFeed = > element atom:source-feed { > atomCommonAttributes, > ( atomTitle > & atomUpdated > & atomLink+ > & atomIcon? -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Mar 19 07:03:15 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA13358 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 07:03:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2JBueu7019760; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 03:56:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2JBueXA019759; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 03:56:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta09-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (smtpout17.mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.17]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2JBudpC019722 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 03:56:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta09-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050319115633.DPTW21280.mta09-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com>; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:56:33 +0000 Received: from cpc3-stke1-5-0-cust172.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([82.11.128.172]) by aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050319115633.EFBC1279.aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@cpc3-stke1-5-0-cust172.bagu.cable.ntl.com>; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:56:33 +0000 Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:56:30 +0000 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.9.7 Return (pre-beta)) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <352532918.20050319115630@djpowell.net> To: Norman Walsh CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Broken RELAX NG Grammar in Appendix B of draft-06 In-Reply-To: <87acp01zis.fsf@nwalsh.com> References: <87br9h3qhg.fsf@nwalsh.com> <423B245B.9090001@franklinmint.fm> <87acp01zis.fsf@nwalsh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Two more things I've just noticed: PersonConstructs aren't currently allowing extension elements. anyForeignAttribute and anyForeignElement are currently not used anywhere. -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Mar 19 07:04:08 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA13441 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 07:04:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2JBtE3u019260; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 03:55:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2JBtE9W019259; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 03:55:14 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail08.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail08.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.24]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j2JBtDAZ019220 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 03:55:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 45614 messnum 5388394 invoked from network[83.70.250.89/83-70-250-89.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 19 Mar 2005 11:55:08 -0000 Received: from 83-70-250-89.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?192.168.123.125?) (83.70.250.89) by mail08.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 45614) with SMTP; 19 Mar 2005 11:55:08 -0000 Message-ID: <423C131A.1000908@dehora.net> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:55:06 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Person "identity" References: <2809.82.127.77.43.1111159386.squirrel@ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com> In-Reply-To: <2809.82.127.77.43.1111159386.squirrel@ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas Broyer wrote: > As I already said, this would greatly help storing feeds efficiently in > databases or object graphs. > > Any comment? -1. The WG shouldn't contemplate standardizing identity management at this time. This is a complex problem domain, even in closed systems. Feed format specs are not the right place to try and deal with it. Extend Atom with FOAF instead if you really need these capabilities in the near term. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Mar 19 07:21:49 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA14360 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 07:21:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2JCEBhU026217; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 04:14:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2JCEBwJ026212; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 04:14:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (smtpout15.mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2JCE8OV026165 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 04:14:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamta07-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050319121402.KOJV22922.mta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta07-winn.mailhost.ntl.com> for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:14:02 +0000 Received: from cpc3-stke1-5-0-cust172.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([82.11.128.172]) by aamta07-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050319121402.HUIM10174.aamta07-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@cpc3-stke1-5-0-cust172.bagu.cable.ntl.com> for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:14:02 +0000 Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:13:59 +0000 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.9.7 Return (pre-beta)) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <795725207.20050319121359@djpowell.net> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Minor error in DigSig section MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In other words, the presence of an element with the namespace IRI > "http://www.w3.org/2000/09/xmldsig#" "Namespace IRI", is that a find-replace-o? -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Mar 19 09:05:07 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA22477 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:05:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2JDw8uV060045; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 05:58:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2JDw84m060044; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 05:58:08 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf00.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.79]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2JDw7Il060028 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 05:58:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.5.50.210]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2E8F67112; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 14:58:01 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <423C2FF0.8060109@cegetel.net> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 14:58:08 +0100 From: Thomas Broyer User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: fr, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Person "identity" References: <2809.82.127.77.43.1111159386.squirrel@ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com> <423C131A.1000908@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: <423C131A.1000908@dehora.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill de hÓra wrote: > > Thomas Broyer wrote: > >> As I already said, this would greatly help storing feeds efficiently in >> databases or object graphs. >> >> Any comment? > > -1. The WG shouldn't contemplate standardizing identity management at > this time. Yes, it could be pinned out until the next Atom version. > This is a complex problem domain, even in closed systems. Feed format > specs are not the right place to try and deal with it. Extend Atom with > FOAF instead if you really need these capabilities in the near term. I can't disagree, but the Atom spec don't say anything about having the same person as the author and contributor, or multiple times as contributor to the same entry, and this is quite "bizarre", isn't it? There could be a line in the spec suggesting a person to appear only once per entry, even if we can't enforce it at a syntax level. And let's use a FOAF extension until something is added to Atom in a future version. -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Mar 19 09:08:58 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA22723 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:08:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2JE26Ja060410; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:02:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2JE26HG060409; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:02:06 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2JE26Ex060401 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:02:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so194197rnz for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:02:06 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=FJm2I2Bvpr55sOTiTmDsCda+a8t0jsW0qbzT+MZU9oMZK0O578IFJ3k7VP7I2/g+LcGZh4Gutdic9W5bTJ/4lciyvWekpj/RDKhWtZTSX6cTi6m8WW5b34a/dQodxNdigcQlbE+O46Unz9LtbBcDXNvSKtv3CeoC9bqMleeVwvA= Received: by 10.38.206.58 with SMTP id d58mr1184186rng; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:02:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.25 with HTTP; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:02:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd05031906027cea12f2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:02:06 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= Subject: Re: Person "identity" Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <423C131A.1000908@dehora.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <2809.82.127.77.43.1111159386.squirrel@ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com> <423C131A.1000908@dehora.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j2JE26Ex060403 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:55:06 +0000, Bill de hÓra wrote: Extend Atom with > FOAF instead if you really need these capabilities in the near term. Yep, given the timescales involved, that sounds like a good pragmatic solution. Even if Atom doesn't support it, and feeds don't use the extension, your own database can implement something like FOAF "smushing" based on properties of entries. If you find two entries with an author (foaf:name) "Bill de hÓra" associated (directly or indirectly) with URI (foaf:homepage) http://www.dehora.net/journal/ then chances are it's the same person. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Mar 19 09:30:31 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA24772 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:30:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2JEPO3x062490; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:25:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2JEPODV062489; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:25:24 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf01.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.80]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2JEPMCJ062479 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:25:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.5.50.210]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2714637D6A; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:25:17 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <423C3654.7040207@cegetel.net> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:25:24 +0100 From: Thomas Broyer User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: fr, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Danny Ayers Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Person "identity" References: <2809.82.127.77.43.1111159386.squirrel@ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com> <423C131A.1000908@dehora.net> <1f2ed5cd05031906027cea12f2@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd05031906027cea12f2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Danny Ayers wrote: > On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:55:06 +0000, Bill de hÓra wrote: > > Extend Atom with > >>FOAF instead if you really need these capabilities in the near term. > > Yep, given the timescales involved, that sounds like a good pragmatic solution. +1, as said in another mail. > Even if Atom doesn't support it, and feeds don't use the extension, > your own database can implement something like FOAF "smushing" based > on properties of entries. If you find two entries with an author > (foaf:name) "Bill de hÓra" associated (directly or indirectly) > with URI (foaf:homepage) http://www.dehora.net/journal/ then chances > are it's the same person. Well actually I was thinking about creating a "unified feed API" (in .NET, but could be ported to other languages) and trying to reduce memory footprint by reusing Person objects, as well as providing relations (bidi-arcs) between a Person and the Entries he/she has authored or contributed. End of discussion, until next Atom version ;o) -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Mar 19 09:53:08 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA26983 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:53:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2JElx8q065271; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:47:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2JElxPO065270; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:47:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j2JElvBH065255 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:47:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian.reschke@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 19 Mar 2005 14:47:51 -0000 Received: from pD9E5144D.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO [192.168.0.3]) [217.229.20.77] by mail.gmx.net (mp023) with SMTP; 19 Mar 2005 15:47:51 +0100 X-Authenticated: #1915285 Message-ID: <423C3B90.6070509@gmx.de> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:47:44 +0100 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Powell CC: Norman Walsh , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Broken RELAX NG Grammar in Appendix B of draft-06 References: <87br9h3qhg.fsf@nwalsh.com> <423B245B.9090001@franklinmint.fm> <87acp01zis.fsf@nwalsh.com> <352532918.20050319115630@djpowell.net> In-Reply-To: <352532918.20050319115630@djpowell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Powell wrote: > > Two more things I've just noticed: > > PersonConstructs aren't currently allowing extension elements. > > anyForeignAttribute and anyForeignElement are currently not > used anywhere. Proposal for test procedure: - please publish an updated RNC file somewhere (on atomsub.org?) - those who already produce experimental atom-06 feeds, please check them with that RNC (my test feeds are and ) Best regards, Julian -- bytes GmbH -- http://www.greenbytes.de -- tel:+492512807760 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Mar 19 12:25:04 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA08471 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:25:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2JHHmAX076780; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:17:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2JHHmEd076779; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:17:48 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2JHHlbv076769 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:17:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j2JHH7wo022393 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 17:17:18 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" From: Graham Subject: Editorial: source-feed > source Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 17:16:11 +0000 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Every single Atom keyword apart from this new one is a single non-hyphenated word. This one sticks out horribly. Proposal: Rename atom:source-feed to atom:source Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Mar 19 13:00:38 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA11001 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 13:00:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2JHt3aY079617; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:55:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2JHt3gF079616; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:55:03 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2JHt2D8079607 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:55:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0cdfl9t.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.213.61] helo=[192.168.0.8]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DCiA7-0007mO-Q8; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 17:54:59 +0000 Message-ID: <423C6772.8030607@franklinmint.fm> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:54:58 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham CC: "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" Subject: Re: Editorial: source-feed > source References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > > Every single Atom keyword apart from this new one is a single > non-hyphenated word. This one sticks out horribly. > > Proposal: > Rename atom:source-feed to atom:source Sounds good to me. I picked PubSub's deployed name for clarity, and to avoid confusion with the atom:source element we used to have. Long term, atom:source is nicer. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Mar 19 13:00:52 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA11027 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 13:00:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2JHr0eZ079412; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:53:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2JHr0bA079411; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:53:00 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2JHr0ea079404 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:53:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0cdfl9t.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.213.61] helo=[192.168.0.8]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DCi86-0007jx-0A; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 17:52:54 +0000 Message-ID: <423C66F4.1060009@franklinmint.fm> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:52:52 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Reschke CC: David Powell , Norman Walsh , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Broken RELAX NG Grammar in Appendix B of draft-06 References: <87br9h3qhg.fsf@nwalsh.com> <423B245B.9090001@franklinmint.fm> <87acp01zis.fsf@nwalsh.com> <352532918.20050319115630@djpowell.net> <423C3B90.6070509@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <423C3B90.6070509@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Julian Reschke wrote: > > Proposal for test procedure: > > - please publish an updated RNC file somewhere (on atomsub.org?) > > - those who already produce experimental atom-06 feeds, please check them with that RNC Since Norm has offered to rework the RNC, we can use that. I'd be happy to host the RNC on atompub.org, but anywhere should be fine. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Mar 19 15:41:22 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA20765 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:41:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2JKUPrD092235; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:30:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2JKUPmX092234; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:30:25 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2JKUMZ6092227 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:30:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0cdfl9t.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.213.61] helo=[192.168.0.8]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DCkaI-00018Y-1H; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 20:30:10 +0000 Message-ID: <423C8BD0.2080008@franklinmint.fm> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:30:08 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Powell CC: Norman Walsh , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Broken RELAX NG Grammar in Appendix B of draft-06 References: <87br9h3qhg.fsf@nwalsh.com> <423B245B.9090001@franklinmint.fm> <87acp01zis.fsf@nwalsh.com> <352532918.20050319115630@djpowell.net> In-Reply-To: <352532918.20050319115630@djpowell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Powell wrote: > > PersonConstructs aren't currently allowing extension elements. > > anyForeignAttribute and anyForeignElement are currently not > used anywhere. The second point reflects a problem with the draft. I noticed this while writing it, but figured the WG needed to spot it. "The atom:entry element MAY contain any namespace-qualified [W3C.REC-xml-names-19990114] elements as children." Ok, but does that imply foreign content is not allowed elsewhere? I suggest the WG did not intend for that to be the case, the sentence from 6.4 more accurately reflects WG opinion: "Atom allows foreign markup anywhere in an Atom document. Child elements of atom:entry and atom:feed are considered "metadata" elements, and are described below. Child elements of Person Constructs are considered to apply to the construct. The role of other foreign markup is undefined by this specification." My personal view was that Person constructs should not define the meaning of foreign content, but the WG clearly favored it. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Mar 19 23:42:42 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA22582 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 23:42:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2K4ZaNN030597; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 20:35:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2K4ZaN5030596; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 20:35:36 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [205.237.194.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2K4ZZX9030579 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 20:35:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3927FA32EE; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 23:35:34 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <423A1A3B.6000801@franklinmint.fm> References: <4977edec4182ebd6cd3e17a0472545ff@mac.com> <423A1A3B.6000801@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <8f0afcca947c46c0f2667ae9c05bc886@mnot.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Graham , "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" , Tim Bray X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham X-Face: }I;hHtiZ43-RK8s{or'?iELJ;!_Mt2|\hW'VcAn*UR#@;4p5@s},~+i=>p})B"gMK%m,`?|Cy>=P/om{?_\aOaPaDMK)TkU_b3]A85YU?A 3iYcf9##+Qu~e(m6w=ot[yfp1G)WXBYGcTM{!EWIB2n/%E@5PjJ_GXq(b2Fq0|#uL{ Subject: Re: Outstanding work on format draft Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 20:35:28 -0800 To: Robert Sayre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mar 17, 2005, at 4:00 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: >> I disagree - the Pace I wrote was about whitespace within content, >> whereas that anchor is in a section about document syntax. I know >> there are RSS users who think thinks like rel=" alternate " are >> acceptable. Some discussion of this would be useful. > > Write something down. I can't speak for Mark here, but I have no idea > what needs to be said there. I was thinking more of whitespace between elements, rather than that in attributes. E.g., "Whitespace in between the children of atom:feed and atom:element is not semantically significant." >> A quick bit of rewording would help. Currently it basically says "The >> type attribute may have the values..." three times with three >> different rules. Changing it to "On the summary element, the type >> atrribute may have the values..." stops the spec being apparently >> self-contradicting. > > Excellent suggestion, thanks. +1 -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Mar 19 23:54:20 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA23128 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 23:54:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2K4iehA031510; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 20:44:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2K4ieZC031509; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 20:44:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [205.237.194.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2K4idXh031503 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 20:44:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA8ADA3202; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 23:44:38 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <20050318104433.GH26039@homer.w3.org> References: <6af7ee6d830644cf299f390a2847a6b2@sun.com> <4268a979.810854468@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <20050318104433.GH26039@homer.w3.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <151a1989fa7397e6e0fd7448c6bd96bf@mnot.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Bjoern Hoehrmann , "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" , Tim Bray X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham X-Face: }I;hHtiZ43-RK8s{or'?iELJ;!_Mt2|\hW'VcAn*UR#@;4p5@s},~+i=>p})B"gMK%m,`?|Cy>=P/om{?_\aOaPaDMK)TkU_b3]A85YU?A 3iYcf9##+Qu~e(m6w=ot[yfp1G)WXBYGcTM{!EWIB2n/%E@5PjJ_GXq(b2Fq0|#uL{ Subject: Re: s/url/web/ Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 20:44:31 -0800 To: Dan Brickley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +1 to the "just pick something and ship it" position On Mar 18, 2005, at 2:44 AM, Dan Brickley wrote: > > * Bjoern Hoehrmann [2005-03-18 11:13+0100] >> >> * Tim Bray wrote: >>> There are a couple of places where we use "uri" in the markup, >>> specifically the "atom:uri" element (3.2.2) and the "uri" attribute >>> of >>> "atom:generator" (4.2.5). >>> >>> In both cases they're not actually URIs, they're IRIs, so the name is >>> WRONG, except for nobody knows what an IRI is so renaming them "iri" >>> would be confusing, and anyhow everyone thinks of URLs not *RIs, but >>> naming them "url" would be wrong too, so why don't we actually change >>> them to say what they're there for not what their syntax is and use >>> "web" in both cases? -Tim >> >> We can call those "at" or "about" or "internet" but certainly not >> "web". > > While we're at it, we can relive 10-15 years of URN vs URI debates on > the > Atom list instead of shipping product. Are you appealing to some > notion of > 'online' versus 'offline' resource? A spec could be cited from the > formal > Atom spec? Such distinctions are notoriously hard to maintain... If you > want to add an implicit (and imho illadviced) notion of > 'URI dereferencability' into the spec, it'd be good to see candidate > text for inclusion, rather than doing it via attribute/element name > choice. Note that the deferencability of identifiers changes over time, > as infrastructure is deployed (or rots away); eg. DOIs, gopher:, java: > URIs... > > Dan > > > -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 20 05:15:38 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA02646 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 05:15:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2KA7HTC040093; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 02:07:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2KA7HOK040092; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 02:07:17 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2KA7Gjt040081 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 02:07:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 27052 invoked by uid 17064); 20 Mar 2005 10:07:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.5]) ([83.112.235.221]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Mar 2005 10:07:16 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: <1888896396.20050318201816@djpowell.net> References: <20050318112446.GM26039@homer.w3.org> <24398F5C-97C4-11D9-8026-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <20050318162424.GW26039@homer.w3.org> <423b1b9d.840074218@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <20050318184204.GE26039@homer.w3.org> <423c21ee.841690921@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <1888896396.20050318201816@djpowell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <29f8ab1128976e136d18a1e255ca6a71@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: s/url/web/ Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:07:15 +0100 To: Atom Syntax , David Powell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 18 Mar 2005, at 21:18, David Powell wrote: > Friday, March 18, 2005, 7:08:32 PM, Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: > >> -- wrong >> -- unknown to many users >> -- misleading to many users > >> I suggest confronting users with something unknown is better than >> misleading them. > > How about something with less meaning attached to it, such as "ref"? +1 or "resource"? -.764 on "web" from me, it just does not seem quite right. > > -- > Dave > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 20 07:39:49 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA11880 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 07:39:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2KCVUGv094702; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 04:31:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2KCVTSA094700; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 04:31:29 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.200]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2KCVS0j094687 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 04:31:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so270578rnz for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 04:31:28 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=Zf1nP3IPXef0J28AJqEbRGxVe4/rZDVSqTLMg6HVvdDBEyZVb6Ck4otuzfqnaoHo6UzPBAJdnvWuzHE0xizNldRPkhGYzn2NZzhpAZbk5qDMnyUel4DClNU6lMNdfX3RyaiCVLgGadccSVqLkrKhiKJKYhxjt0oA46X4jhPCcjI= Received: by 10.38.206.58 with SMTP id d58mr1407056rng; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 04:31:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.25 with HTTP; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 04:31:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd050320043128fb1b0e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 13:31:28 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Thomas Broyer Subject: Re: Person "identity" Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= , atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <423C3654.7040207@cegetel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <2809.82.127.77.43.1111159386.squirrel@ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com> <423C131A.1000908@dehora.net> <1f2ed5cd05031906027cea12f2@mail.gmail.com> <423C3654.7040207@cegetel.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:25:24 +0100, Thomas Broyer wrote: > Well actually I was thinking about creating a "unified feed API" (in > .NET, but could be ported to other languages) and trying to reduce > memory footprint by reusing Person objects, as well as providing > relations (bidi-arcs) between a Person and the Entries he/she has > authored or contributed. Yep, I don't see why not. Irrespective of memory etc, this would seem (IMHO) the best approach to Atom Persons if you're programming with objects. The Atom model is only specified through prose and the implications of syntax constraints, but I'm sure there's enough to start a "unified API". I personally believe the best approach to this is through a unified machine-readable model, specified in RDF/OWL. This is more-or-less the approach to Atom being taken by Henry Story in BlogEd (Java) and Mark Nottingham for Sparta (Python). > End of discussion, until next Atom version ;o) But only the beginning of implementation! Cheers, Danny. Early OWL model draft: http://semtext.org/atom/ Henry's refactoring/implementation: http://bblfish.net/work/atom-owl/2004-08-12/blogexample.html Mark's sparta notes: http://www.mnot.net/blog/2005/03/17/sparta -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 20 08:51:00 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA16728 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:50:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2KDjDqt017740; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 05:45:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2KDjDYn017739; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 05:45:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.198]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2KDjCZb017732 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 05:45:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id f1so742079rne for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 05:45:12 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=lnGJPnLgdTVWT1G2Q+rAco6lvcjjIwkbUpyYO/swQ2OwkppL0Hu9lM/ho8qvDZV1560sTd4xEeELd8wKmmlcxKSjtutWIn/eIT627s7tFhoWBVvJuwHjO7GpHsCcwu5RFyl3ainLSq8v29XMeTy2Ivz5inbf0FFMYFkQpXaB1xs= Received: by 10.38.76.23 with SMTP id y23mr1029928rna; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 05:45:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.151.18 with HTTP; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 05:45:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3f1451f505032005452463a747@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:45:12 -0500 From: Joe Gregorio Reply-To: Joe Gregorio To: Robert Sayre Subject: Re: s/url/web/ Cc: Tim Bray , "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" In-Reply-To: <423A231F.2020706@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <6af7ee6d830644cf299f390a2847a6b2@sun.com> <423A231F.2020706@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:38:55 -0500, Robert Sayre wrote: > > Tim Bray wrote: > > > > EDITORIAL: > > > > There are a couple of places where we use "uri" in the markup, > > specifically the "atom:uri" element (3.2.2) and the "uri" attribute of > > "atom:generator" (4.2.5). > > > > In both cases they're not actually URIs, they're IRIs, so the name is > > WRONG, > > Keeping the name atom:uri is exactly what Martin, author of RFC3987 and > PaceIRI, suggested. This is the reason I'm +1 on keeping it 'atom:uri'. -joe -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 20 10:16:34 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA23263 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 10:16:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2KF5xbm025142; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 07:05:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2KF5x4n025141; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 07:05:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j2KF5wfg025132 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 07:05:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian.reschke@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 20 Mar 2005 15:05:51 -0000 Received: from pD9535A95.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO [192.168.0.3]) [217.83.90.149] by mail.gmx.net (mp018) with SMTP; 20 Mar 2005 16:05:51 +0100 X-Authenticated: #1915285 Message-ID: <423D9145.5050001@gmx.de> Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 16:05:41 +0100 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" Subject: Updated issues list Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I just reviewed my -05 issues list, and updated it based on the changes in -06: 05-C02, 3.1.1, "type" attribute -06: , examples updated Suggested examples for TEXT, HTML and XHTML: a title containing the string "Less: <", where the less sign displays emphasized when possible.. Less: < Less: <em> &lt; </em> Less: < (hope I got these right). 05-C05, 4.15.3 processing model -06: "If the value of "type" ends with "+xml" or "/xml", the content of atom:content may include child elements, and SHOULD be suitable for handling by software that knows the indicated media type. If the "src" attribute is not provided, this would normally mean that the "atom:content" element would contain a single child element which would serve as the root element of the XML document of the indicated type." The statement about the "src" attribute seems to be unnecessary given the SHOULD-level requirement to have local content (thus no "src" attribute). "If the value of "type" begins with "text/" the content of atom:content MUST NOT contain child elements." See 4.15.2: so is this a SHOULD or a MUST? Update -06: I'm still confused by the text. For instance: - is it intentional that 4.1.3.3 says ``If the value of "type" ends with "+xml" or "/xml"'', while 4.1.3.2 used ``If the value of type begins with "text/" or ends with "+xml"''? - also, if content for +xml SHOULD be local (4.1.3.2), why does 4.1.3.3. point 4, make statements about situations where it comes with @src attribute? Maybe it's not a SHOULD requirement after all? 05-E02, Notational Conventions I think this should come with the following URL: Update -06: I think it would be good if all W3C references came with URLs. 05-E03, Notational Conventions "A collected schema appears in an informative appendix." (refer directly by section/appendix number). Same for some other intra-document references. 05-E05, 3.2.2 atom:uri "The content of atom:uri in a Person construct MUST be a URI reference [RFC2396bis]." 06: Directly point to RFC3986's section (here: 4.1). Update -06: I still think that spelling out the section number will make it easier to actually locate the definition. 05-E06, 3.2.3 atom:email http://atompub.org/2005/03/12/draft-ietf-atompub-format-06.html#rfc.section.3.2.3 "Its content MUST be an e-mail address [RFC2822]." Again, please refer directly to the definition. In this case, it seems to be section 3.4.1 (addr-spec production). 05-E08, 4.6.2 rel attribute 06: If we use (A)BNF syntax, the spec needs to say so and reference the definition normatively (for instance, RFC2234). "...same name registered within the IANA Registry of Link Relations Section 9, and..." Put the section reference into brackets. 05-E12, 11 references 06: Here's a producedural question: if we have normative references to the protocol and the feed discovery document, the spec won't get published until those are done, too. Is everybody aware of that? Update -06: we still have a normative reference to the feed discovery spec, which, according to , has expired. If this reference is expected to stay in, we'll have to actually finish that spec as well :-) Best regards, Julian From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 20 10:50:27 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA26413 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 10:50:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2KFgGeq027563; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 07:42:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2KFgGEZ027562; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 07:42:16 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2KFgC7k027539 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 07:42:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Mon, 21 Mar 2005 04:42:59 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 02:42:03 +1100 Subject: Re: Updated issues list From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <423D9145.5050001@gmx.de> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 21/3/05 2:05 AM, "Julian Reschke" wrote: > Here's a producedural question: if we have normative references to the > protocol and the feed discovery document, the spec won't get published > until those are done, too. +1 > Update -06: we still have a normative reference to the feed discovery > spec, which, according to , has > expired. If this reference is expected to stay in, we'll have to > actually finish that spec as well :-) +1 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 20 11:17:50 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA28333 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:17:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2KGAc1I029779; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:10:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2KGAcxg029778; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:10:38 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2KGAcbk029771 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:10:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0cdfl1u.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.212.62] helo=[192.168.1.100]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DD30d-0003Uw-A3; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 16:10:35 +0000 Message-ID: <423DA094.3040709@franklinmint.fm> Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:11:00 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Bray , Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: s/url/web/ References: <6af7ee6d830644cf299f390a2847a6b2@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <6af7ee6d830644cf299f390a2847a6b2@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mark Nottingham wrote: > > +1 to the "just pick something and ship it" position > Indeed. Could it possibly matter less? We have more important things to talk about. For "web": Bray, Sayre, Duerst, Brickley For "iri": de hÓra, Höhrmann For "uri": Gregorio, van Kesteren Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 20 11:25:46 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA28972 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:25:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2KGLd0f031178; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:21:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2KGLddV031177; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:21:39 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (imap.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j2KGLbOs031160 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:21:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian.reschke@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 20 Mar 2005 16:21:31 -0000 Received: from pD9535A95.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO [192.168.0.3]) [217.83.90.149] by mail.gmx.net (mp023) with SMTP; 20 Mar 2005 17:21:31 +0100 X-Authenticated: #1915285 Message-ID: <423DA2FE.1060209@gmx.de> Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:21:18 +0100 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Reschke CC: "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" Subject: new issues in draft -06, was: Updated issues list References: <423D9145.5050001@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <423D9145.5050001@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ..and here's a set of *new* issues I found while re-reading the draft...: 06-C01, 3.1.1 "type" Attribute This has been mentioned before...: as far as I can tell, it's far easier for recipients to process "xhtml" compared to "html" (no tag-soup parser needed), thus *any* kind of change that encourages "xhtml" would be appreciated. 06-C02, 3.1.1 "type" Attribute Here's a question. Is this...: overlapping <b>markup <>is</b> bad</i>. legal Atom? As far as I can tell, here we have a SHOULD level requirement to only transport well-formed HTML4 content, right? 06-C03, 3.3 Date Constructs As others have pointed out, the regexp is incorrect ("-" characters in full-date part are missing). Also, I'm not sure whether it requires the timezone information; if it doesn't, this isn't what RFC3339 defines. In general, I find RFC3339 much easier to read: --snip-- date-fullyear = 4DIGIT date-month = 2DIGIT ; 01-12 date-mday = 2DIGIT ; 01-28, 01-29, 01-30, 01-31 based on ; month/year time-hour = 2DIGIT ; 00-23 time-minute = 2DIGIT ; 00-59 time-second = 2DIGIT ; 00-58, 00-59, 00-60 based on leap second ; rules time-secfrac = "." 1*DIGIT time-numoffset = ("+" / "-") time-hour ":" time-minute time-offset = "Z" / time-numoffset partial-time = time-hour ":" time-minute ":" time-second [time-secfrac] full-date = date-fullyear "-" date-month "-" date-mday full-time = partial-time time-offset date-time = full-date "T" full-time --snip-- 06-E01, 1.2 Example Is it intentional that the example is inconsistently indented? 06-E02, 1.3 Notational Conventions ...speaks about namespace prefixe*s* being defined; but then only defines a single one. 06-E03, 5.1 Digital Signatures s/namespace IRI/namespace URI/ (or "namespace name") 06-E04, 6.2 Extensions To the Atom Vocabulary --snip-- considered "foreign "markup". --snip-- (quoting). 06-E05, 8.1 HTML and XHTML Content "See the security sections of RFC 2854 and HTML 4.01 for guidance." (use proper references) Best regards, Julian From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 20 11:26:15 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA29001 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:26:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2KGJPnt030953; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:19:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2KGJP6E030952; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:19:25 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j2KGJO47030942 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:19:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian.reschke@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 20 Mar 2005 16:19:18 -0000 Received: from pD9535A95.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO [192.168.0.3]) [217.83.90.149] by mail.gmx.net (mp009) with SMTP; 20 Mar 2005 17:19:18 +0100 X-Authenticated: #1915285 Message-ID: <423DA279.8090001@gmx.de> Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:19:05 +0100 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Sayre CC: Tim Bray , Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: s/url/web/ References: <6af7ee6d830644cf299f390a2847a6b2@sun.com> <423DA094.3040709@franklinmint.fm> In-Reply-To: <423DA094.3040709@franklinmint.fm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Robert Sayre wrote: > > Mark Nottingham wrote: > > > > +1 to the "just pick something and ship it" position > > > > Indeed. Could it possibly matter less? We have more important things to > talk about. > > > For "web": > Bray, Sayre, Duerst, Brickley > > For "iri": > de hÓra, Höhrmann > > For "uri": > Gregorio, van Kesteren > > > Robert Sayre -1 on "iri", +1 for "uri", -0 on "web" from me. Julian -- bytes GmbH -- http://www.greenbytes.de -- tel:+492512807760 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 20 11:26:21 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA29024 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:26:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2KGJZjm030967; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:19:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2KGJZEu030966; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:19:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j2KGJYSY030957 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:19:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from derhoermi@gmx.net) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 20 Mar 2005 16:19:28 -0000 Received: from dsl-084-056-236-242.arcor-ip.net (EHLO helix) [84.56.236.242] by mail.gmx.net (mp022) with SMTP; 20 Mar 2005 17:19:28 +0100 X-Authenticated: #723575 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann To: Robert Sayre Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: s/url/web/ Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:19:45 +0100 Message-ID: <4263a1ac.1005465046@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> References: <6af7ee6d830644cf299f390a2847a6b2@sun.com> <423DA094.3040709@franklinmint.fm> In-Reply-To: <423DA094.3040709@franklinmint.fm> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit * Robert Sayre wrote: >For "web": >Bray, Sayre, Duerst, Brickley > >For "iri": >de hÓra, Höhrmann > >For "uri": >Gregorio, van Kesteren "resource", "ref", "about", etc. work for me, but not any of those. -- Björn Höhrmann · mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de Weinh. Str. 22 · Telefon: +49(0)621/4309674 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de 68309 Mannheim · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.websitedev.de/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 20 11:32:32 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA29474 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:32:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2KGQFSm031597; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:26:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2KGQF0q031596; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:26:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2KGQEpM031578 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:26:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j2KGPL19006207 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 16:25:27 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: <423DA094.3040709@franklinmint.fm> References: <6af7ee6d830644cf299f390a2847a6b2@sun.com> <423DA094.3040709@franklinmint.fm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <982a341a34c132d90e59235bec459f00@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Graham Subject: Re: s/url/web/ Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 16:25:20 +0000 To: Atom-Syntax X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Add me to the "uri" camp. Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 20 13:53:20 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA09514 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 13:53:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2KIfq9Y042461; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 10:41:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2KIfqh4042460; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 10:41:52 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2KIfp5I042453 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 10:41:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0cdfl1u.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.212.62] helo=[192.168.1.100]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DD5My-0004zg-BH; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:41:48 +0000 Message-ID: <423DC405.80005@franklinmint.fm> Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 13:42:13 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Reschke CC: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: new issues in draft -06, was: Updated issues list References: <423D9145.5050001@gmx.de> <423DA2FE.1060209@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <423DA2FE.1060209@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the close reading. Comments inline. Julian Reschke wrote: > > This has been mentioned before...: as far as I can tell, it's far easier > for recipients to process "xhtml" compared to "html" (no tag-soup parser > needed), thus *any* kind of change that encourages "xhtml" would be > appreciated. I've heard client and server implementors take every possible position on the matter. I'm not sure why this issue must be raised over and over. > > 06-C02, 3.1.1 "type" Attribute > > > > > Here's a question. Is this...: > > > overlapping <b>markup <>is</b> bad</i>. > > > legal Atom? As far as I can tell, here we have a SHOULD level > requirement to only transport well-formed HTML4 content, right? > Seems like overspecification to me. What's the benefit of going into detail here? > > 06-C03, 3.3 Date Constructs > > > > > As others have pointed out, the regexp is incorrect ("-" characters in > full-date part are missing). Also, I'm not sure whether it requires the > timezone information; if it doesn't, this isn't what RFC3339 defines. In > general, I find RFC3339 much easier to read: > Noted. > > > 06-E01, 1.2 Example > > > > > Is it intentional that the example is inconsistently indented? Noted. A shorter namespace would help. > > > 06-E02, 1.3 Notational Conventions > > > > > ...speaks about namespace prefixe*s* being defined; but then only > defines a single one. noted. > > 06-E03, 5.1 Digital Signatures > > > > > s/namespace IRI/namespace URI/ (or "namespace name") namespace URI, I think. > > > 06-E04, 6.2 Extensions To the Atom Vocabulary > > > > > --snip-- > considered "foreign "markup". > --snip-- > > (quoting). noted. > > > 06-E05, 8.1 HTML and XHTML Content > > > > > "See the security sections of RFC 2854 and HTML 4.01 for guidance." > > (use proper references) > Will do. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 20 14:05:13 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA10115 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:05:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2KIx02o043758; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 10:59:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2KIx0JD043757; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 10:59:00 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j2KIwwHL043747 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 10:58:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian.reschke@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 20 Mar 2005 18:58:52 -0000 Received: from pD9E62AE1.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO [192.168.0.3]) [217.230.42.225] by mail.gmx.net (mp010) with SMTP; 20 Mar 2005 19:58:52 +0100 X-Authenticated: #1915285 Message-ID: <423DC7D8.9030803@gmx.de> Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 19:58:32 +0100 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Sayre CC: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: new issues in draft -06, was: Updated issues list References: <423D9145.5050001@gmx.de> <423DA2FE.1060209@gmx.de> <423DC405.80005@franklinmint.fm> In-Reply-To: <423DC405.80005@franklinmint.fm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Sayre wrote: > Thanks for the close reading. Comments inline. > > Julian Reschke wrote: > >> >> This has been mentioned before...: as far as I can tell, it's far >> easier for recipients to process "xhtml" compared to "html" (no >> tag-soup parser needed), thus *any* kind of change that encourages >> "xhtml" would be appreciated. > > > I've heard client and server implementors take every possible position > on the matter. I'm not sure why this issue must be raised over and over. Because I feel it's important. There will be many clients that won't include a tag-soup parser, and markup sent as "html" will thus be lost. So *if* a producer has a choice of using "html" or "xhtml", I think "xhtml" is preferrable, and the spec should say so. >> 06-C02, 3.1.1 "type" Attribute >> >> >> >> >> Here's a question. Is this...: >> >> >> overlapping <b>markup <>is</b> bad</i>. >> >> >> legal Atom? As far as I can tell, here we have a SHOULD level >> requirement to only transport well-formed HTML4 content, right? >> > > Seems like overspecification to me. What's the benefit of going into > detail here? I'd like to understand whether the spec indeed allows tag-soup, or if it actually requires valid HTML (which it seems to do right now). Thus, if people think that they can dump "arbitrary" HTML (such as user-entered) into type="html" elements, they are wrong as far as the spec currently states. > ... Best regards and thanks for the feedback, Julian From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 20 14:34:11 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA12201 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:34:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2KJN5Bm046154; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:23:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2KJN5gL046153; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:23:05 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2KJN48t046141 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:23:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so295242rnz for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:23:04 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=WRGpjfRgd98SzpqHd0I0AbE3Ibb4TE1ZW7wpOSWFT0f9hGDHU5rbegcliYx9wKN4dkHokVTa+pPR3JWDSXzW/RU5SRKsiyFpNgRJknTAholFyJ6ucr+3ZK7J/IRuzAUJ3+WNy/9HZFmv/lMLcYSru2TUm7FEO3eHXyQFcXj5vEU= Received: by 10.38.206.58 with SMTP id d58mr1489035rng; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:23:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.25 with HTTP; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:23:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd05032011236f132710@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 20:23:04 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Graham Subject: Re: s/url/web/ Cc: Atom-Syntax In-Reply-To: <982a341a34c132d90e59235bec459f00@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <6af7ee6d830644cf299f390a2847a6b2@sun.com> <423DA094.3040709@franklinmint.fm> <982a341a34c132d90e59235bec459f00@mac.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My first tendency is towards "pick anything", but if there is to be discussion I'll happily throw in a couple of cents. Isn't the question: what is this thing we're naming? Using atom:uri/atom:iri is only marginally better than saying atom:string - it describes how the identifier is put together, it tells you nothing about what's being identified. I don't think we want atom:id (or similar) because the URI/IRI is only related to the construct, it isn't an identifier for it. I've pasted the relevant bits of the spec below. One is an IRI "associated with" a person, the other an IRI "relevant" to the generator. Shouldn't the name of the attribute reflect the relationship between the Atom construct and the resource being identified? But both atom:associated and atom:relevant seem pretty clunky. So why not atom:related? Cheers, Danny. 3.2.2 The "atom:uri" Element The "atom:uri" element's content conveys an IRI associated with the person. Person constructs MAY contain an atom:uri element, but MUST NOT contain more than one. The content of atom:uri in a Person construct MUST be an IRI reference [RFC3987]. 4.2.5 The "atom:generator" Element The atom:generator element MAY have a "uri" attribute whose value MUST be an IRI reference [RFC3987]. When dereferenced, that IRI SHOULD produce a representation that is relevant to that agent. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 20 14:53:04 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA14024 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:53:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2KJiLlf047492; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:44:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2KJiLNa047491; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:44:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2KJiK40047484 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:44:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2KJiJRr025879 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 12:44:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IDO002JO1HVLH@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 12:44:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.17] ([216.113.204.232]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IDO006QQ1HU44@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 12:44:19 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:44:30 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: new issues in draft -06, was: Updated issues list In-reply-to: <423DC7D8.9030803@gmx.de> To: Julian Reschke Cc: Robert Sayre , Atom-Syntax Message-id: <4bf3dfbbba0b7a9921caf871de1f4136@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <423D9145.5050001@gmx.de> <423DA2FE.1060209@gmx.de> <423DC405.80005@franklinmint.fm> <423DC7D8.9030803@gmx.de> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mar 20, 2005, at 10:58 AM, Julian Reschke wrote: > Because I feel it's important. There will be many clients that won't > include a tag-soup parser, and markup sent as "html" will thus be > lost. So *if* a producer has a choice of using "html" or "xhtml", I > think "xhtml" is preferrable, and the spec should say so. I happen to agree with your position, but I can't in good conscience declare even rough consensus in our favor. Leave it the way it is. > I'd like to understand whether the spec indeed allows tag-soup, or if > it actually requires valid HTML (which it seems to do right now). > Thus, if people think that they can dump "arbitrary" HTML (such as > user-entered) into type="html" elements, they are wrong as far as the > spec currently states. Good point. My impression is that we do currently have SHOULD-level mandate to serve valid HTML; recognizing that most real-world implementors do make a best-effort with tag soup. Anyone who thinks that the language needs improving should suggest improvements. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 20 16:53:30 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA26029 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 16:53:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2KLicU4057532; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 13:44:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2KLicca057531; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 13:44:38 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2KLibO7057525 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 13:44:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0cdfl9t.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.213.61] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DD8Dp-0007O4-Ce; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 21:44:33 +0000 Message-ID: <423DEEDB.1000602@franklinmint.fm> Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 16:44:59 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Reschke CC: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: Updated issues list References: <423D9145.5050001@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <423D9145.5050001@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Julian Reschke wrote: > > -06: > , > examples updated > > Suggested examples for TEXT, HTML and XHTML: a title containing the > string "Less: <", where the less sign displays emphasized when possible.. Including that character is a smart idea, but I don't like the text itself. Mark and I will try to think of something, but suggestions are welcome. > 05-C05, 4.15.3 processing model > > > > -06: > > Update -06: I'm still confused by the text. For instance: > > - is it intentional that 4.1.3.3 says ``If the value of "type" ends with > "+xml" or "/xml"'', while 4.1.3.2 used ``If the value of type begins > with "text/" or ends with "+xml"''? This section needs to be reworked. It doesn't know what it wants to be. It mixes guidelines for producers with a processing model for clients. > - also, if content for +xml SHOULD be local (4.1.3.2), why does 4.1.3.3. > point 4, make statements about situations where it comes with @src > attribute? Maybe it's not a SHOULD requirement after all? > > > 05-E02, Notational Conventions > > > > I think this should come with the following URL: > > > Update -06: I think it would be good if all W3C references came with URLs. Agree. I grabbed the bibliography from resource.org, which doesn't include URLs for W3C specs. I figured there might be a reason for that. > > 05-E03, Notational Conventions > > "A collected schema appears in an informative appendix." > > (refer directly by section/appendix number). Same for some other > intra-document references. But that's so boring! OK, ok, I'll do it. > > 05-E05, 3.2.2 atom:uri > > "The content of atom:uri in a Person construct MUST be a URI reference > [RFC2396bis]." > 06: > > > > Directly point to RFC3986's section (here: 4.1). > > Update -06: I still think that spelling out the section number will make > it easier to actually locate the definition. Agree. Will fix for -07. > > 05-E06, 3.2.3 atom:email > > http://atompub.org/2005/03/12/draft-ietf-atompub-format-06.html#rfc.section.3.2.3 > > > "Its content MUST be an e-mail address [RFC2822]." > > Again, please refer directly to the definition. In this case, it seems > to be section 3.4.1 (addr-spec production). Agree. Will fix for -07. > > > 05-E08, 4.6.2 rel attribute > > > > 06: > > > > If we use (A)BNF syntax, the spec needs to say so and reference the > definition normatively (for instance, RFC2234). Agree. Will fix for -07. > "...same name registered within the IANA Registry of Link Relations > Section 9, and..." > > Put the section reference into brackets. Agree. Will fix for -07. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 20 17:25:26 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA29472 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:25:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2KMHtcX060174; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:17:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2KMHt4x060173; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:17:55 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.147.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2KMHsOv060158 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:17:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59539B2 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:17:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (spike.verity.com [10.69.100.102]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j2KMHlLf011918 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:17:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:17:48 -0800 From: Walter Underwood To: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: new issues in draft -06, was: Updated issues list Message-ID: <50766ACA0CF2ABC54A74A7D3@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <4bf3dfbbba0b7a9921caf871de1f4136@sun.com> References: <423D9145.5050001@gmx.de> <423DA2FE.1060209@gmx.de> <423DC405.80005@franklinmint.fm> <423DC7D8.9030803@gmx.de> <4bf3dfbbba0b7a9921caf871de1f4136@sun.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0a7 (Mac OS X) X-Face: 7Vqnb4fOVKsO)3JuUXKxR\M]:e"u'eG`Zue*.((7i7%P%rvZgS[j~95@C-s3i (s!e;OX`'Pngn5lq*Td}#,"5!^jm(65.";[GPtD^c(/1TtMe&wYO;_}\!}fRkxs%q#Jk 5E^BlXwR+8}qOwy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On March 20, 2005 11:44:30 AM -0800 Tim Bray wrote: > > Good point. My impression is that we do currently have SHOULD-level mandate to > serve valid HTML; recognizing that most real-world implementors do make a best-effort > with tag soup. Anyone who thinks that the language needs improving should suggest > improvements. I support a SHOULD on that. The Robustness Principle would suggest exactly that. Consumers of Atom may make an attempt to parse arbitrary HTML-like content, but producers should make the effort to serve clean HTML. That free-range HTML is nasty stuff. In the past week, we had two customers freely mixing slash and backslash in their URL paths. Sigh. wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect, Verity From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 20 20:39:47 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA13517 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 20:39:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2L1VpZ8073166; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:31:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2L1Vpig073165; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:31:51 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2L1VoRD073159 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:31:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0cdfl9t.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.213.61] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DDBll-0000lg-55 for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 01:31:49 +0000 Message-ID: <423E241D.3010802@franklinmint.fm> Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 20:32:13 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom-Syntax Subject: web/uri/iri/url [Fwd: Re: [whatwg] [wf2] type="url"] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [whatwg] [wf2] type="url" Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 01:28:41 +0000 (UTC) From: Ian Hickson To: Anne van Kesteren CC: WHAT WG List References: <420EA152.7090100@annevankesteren.nl> On Sun, 13 Feb 2005, Anne van Kesteren wrote: > > After thinking about it. Having |type="url"| instead of |type="uri"| or > |type="iri"| might not be so bad. type="url" will get me lynched by standards purists. type="iri" will get me lynched by confused authors. type="uri" is a compromise. -- Ian Hickson U+1047E )\._.,--....,'``. fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A /, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 20 21:09:36 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA16373 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 21:09:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2L23fff074560; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:03:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2L23f3O074559; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:03:41 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2L23e6T074549 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:03:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2L23eRr017568 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 19:03:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IDO00A1SJ23LS@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 19:03:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.17] ([216.113.204.232]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IDO006IXJ2144@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 19:03:37 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:03:49 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: web/uri/iri/url [Fwd: Re: [whatwg] [wf2] type="url"] In-reply-to: <423E241D.3010802@franklinmint.fm> To: Robert Sayre Cc: Atom-Syntax Message-id: <7f596ebc445a205d3c6dccda415a806d@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <423E241D.3010802@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mar 20, 2005, at 5:32 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: > type="url" will get me lynched by standards purists. > type="iri" will get me lynched by confused authors. > type="uri" is a compromise. I hereby promise that should I ever again be tempted to raise an issue around the naming of web addresses, I shall strike myself firmly on the head with a heavy blunt object until I come to my senses. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 21 15:43:46 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA17489 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:43:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2LKYedM061287; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:34:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2LKYeut061286; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:34:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2LKYdZO061280 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:34:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ndw@nwalsh.com) Received: from phys-bur-2 ([129.148.9.73]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2LKYYNV023050 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:34:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.bur-mail1.east.sun.com by bur-mail1.east.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0IDP00L01YF7J1@bur-mail1.east.sun.com> (original mail from ndw@nwalsh.com) for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:34:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (vpn-129-150-35-203.Central.Sun.COM [129.150.35.203]) by bur-mail1.east.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0IDP002RRYHLPE@bur-mail1.east.sun.com> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:34:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from ndw by localhost with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DDTbZ-0002XO-NM for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:34:29 -0500 X-URL: http://nwalsh.com/ Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:34:29 -0500 From: Norman Walsh Subject: Re: draft-06, datetime regexp In-reply-to: To: atom-syntax@imc.org Message-id: <877jk068mi.fsf@nwalsh.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) Emacs/21.4 (gnu/linux) References: <1f2ed5cd05031714522dd7e308@mail.gmail.com> <563e8aa8254ee56b2a447035121f2f6e@sun.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable / Graham was heard to say: | Also, the regex begins: | | [0-9]{8}T | | Which unless I'm mistaken requires the date section to be exactly 8 | digits with no punctuation. Yet RFC3339 defines the date section as | having hyphens: Agreed. That should be [0-9]{4}-[0-9]{2}-[0-9]{2} | full-date =3D date-fullyear "-" date-month "-" date-mday | | I don't think there's better proof of the regex's awfulness than, | given the number of eyeballs that have been on it to get it into the | spec, no one's noticed there's a glaring error in the very first term. Uhm. Yeah. Fair point. Be seeing you, norm =2D-=20 Norman Walsh | Everything should be made as simple as http://nwalsh.com/ | possible, but no simpler. --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBCPy/VOyltUcwYWjsRAuF8AKCWb6yLCUIaZTwbUPUOjL/istnLHACfZN86 4dSM8HKV9XCO2fBsazdCegc= =ABcT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 21 15:51:11 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA18927 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:51:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2LKhoYd061867; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:43:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2LKhoff061866; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:43:50 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2LKhnRP061859 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:43:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ndw@nwalsh.com) Received: from phys-bur-2 ([129.148.9.73]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2LKhmZQ029448 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:43:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.bur-mail1.east.sun.com by bur-mail1.east.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0IDP00201YUD5D@bur-mail1.east.sun.com> (original mail from ndw@nwalsh.com) for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:43:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (vpn-129-150-35-203.Central.Sun.COM [129.150.35.203]) by bur-mail1.east.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0IDP002IVYWZPE@bur-mail1.east.sun.com>; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:43:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from ndw by localhost with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DDTka-0002dr-I0; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:43:48 -0500 X-URL: http://nwalsh.com/ Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:43:41 -0500 From: Norman Walsh Subject: Editorial comments on -06 To: Robert Sayre , Mark Nottingham Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Message-id: <873buo6876.fsf@nwalsh.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) Emacs/21.4 (gnu/linux) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable | 1.3 Notational Conventions |=20 | This specification describes conformance in terms of two kinds of | artefacts; Atom Feed Documents and Atom Entry documents. s/artefacts/artifacts/ I gather artefact is the common British variant, so feel free to ignore this suggestion if you prefer the 'e' variant :-) | Additionally, it places some requirements on Atom Processors. |=20 | The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", | "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this | document are to be interpreted as described in BCP 14, [RFC2119], as | scoped to those conformance targets. |=20 | This specification uses XML Namespaces [W3C.REC-xml-names-19990114] | to uniquely identify XML elements names. It uses the following s/elements/element/ | 3. Common Atom Constructs |=20 | Many of Atom's elements share a few common structures. This section | defines a few such structures and their requirements for convenient s/a few such/those/ | 3.3 Date Constructs |=20 | A Date construct is an element whose content MUST conform to the | date-time BNF rule in [RFC3339]. I.e., the content of this element | matches this regular expression: |=20 | [0-9]{8}T[0-9]{2}:[0-9]{2}:[0-9]{2}(\.[0-9]+) Change [0-9]{8} to [0-9]{4}-[0-9]{2}-[0-9]{2} | 4.1.3 The "atom:content" Element |=20 | The "atom:content" element either contains or links to the content of | the entry. Except for the "type" and "src" attributes, the content | of atom:content is language-sensitive. atom:entry elements MUST | contain zero or one atom:content elements. The constraint that "atom:entry elements MUST contain zero or one atom:content elements" belongs in the bulleted list in the previous section. | 4.2.9.2 The "rel" Attribute |=20 | atom:link elements MAY have an "rel" attribute that indicates the | link relation type. If the "rel" attribute is not present, the link | element MUST be interpreted as if the link relation type is | "alternate". |=20 | rel_attribute =3D segment-nz-nc / IRI If "segment-nz-nc" is defined somewhere, we need a reference. If it isn't, I suggest using "atomNCName" instead as that is at least defined in the RELAX NG Grammar. Be seeing you, norm =2D-=20 Norman Walsh | Everything should be made as simple as http://nwalsh.com/ | possible, but no simpler. --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBCPzH9OyltUcwYWjsRAtAZAJ9s9ta4sbOd8RXPKl00kZnr/+c0PwCgrqUK 6aZUpQgCTjBZ8ktmXvoAPdU= =Qi0B -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 21 15:59:28 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA21358 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:59:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2LKkZgp062054; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:46:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2LKkZWt062053; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:46:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2LKkYpU062047 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:46:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ndw@nwalsh.com) Received: from phys-bur-2 ([129.148.9.73]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2LKkYXA029699 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:46:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from conversion-daemon.bur-mail1.east.sun.com by bur-mail1.east.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0IDP00201YUD5D@bur-mail1.east.sun.com> (original mail from ndw@nwalsh.com) for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:46:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (vpn-129-150-35-203.Central.Sun.COM [129.150.35.203]) by bur-mail1.east.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0IDP002ZRZ1LPE@bur-mail1.east.sun.com>; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:46:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from ndw by localhost with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DDTmt-0002el-Cf; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:46:14 -0500 X-URL: http://nwalsh.com/ Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:45:56 -0500 From: Norman Walsh Subject: Re: Editorial comments on -06 In-reply-to: <873buo6876.fsf@nwalsh.com> To: Robert Sayre , Mark Nottingham Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Message-id: <87vf7k4tiz.fsf@nwalsh.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) Emacs/21.4 (gnu/linux) References: <873buo6876.fsf@nwalsh.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oops. One more. | 6.2 Extensions To the Atom Vocabulary |=20 | Future versions of this specification may add new elements and | attributes to the Atom markup vocabulary. Software written to | conform to this version of the specification will not be able to | process such markup correctly and, in fact, will not be able to | distinguish it from markup error. For the purposes of this | discussion, unrecognized markup from the Atom vocabulary will be | considered "foreign "markup". s/"foreign "markup"/"foreign markup"/ Be seeing you, norm =2D-=20 Norman Walsh | Everything should be made as simple as http://nwalsh.com/ | possible, but no simpler. --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBCPzKEOyltUcwYWjsRApbQAJ9YWeUbx3jJOithVLX7V6xaC7lGKgCgiR4o pO1P6HUqJDH/hEuVHdKF3FU= =tP1Y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 21 16:13:05 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA26108 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:13:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2LL3tHn063363; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:03:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2LL3tHL063362; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:03:55 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2LL3rwB063345 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:03:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0cdfl9t.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.213.61] helo=[192.168.0.3]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DDU3t-00042w-1G; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:03:45 +0000 Message-ID: <423F36CB.5030104@franklinmint.fm> Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:04:11 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Norman Walsh CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Confused about extensibility References: <87u0n44t93.fsf@nwalsh.com> In-Reply-To: <87u0n44t93.fsf@nwalsh.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Norman Walsh wrote: > I'm not sure the -06 draft tells a consistent story about > extensibility. It doesn't. http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg13845.html > > That last paragraph suggests that foreign markup *not* from the Atom > vocabulary may not appear at any location, that it must only appear in > specified places. Correct. > But > > | 6.4 Extension Elements > | > | Atom allows foreign markup anywhere in an Atom document. > > Then we're told foreign markup is allowed anywhere. Do we really mean > that? I think we do. Do we really want to *outlaw* the following? > > The text in 4.1.2 seems related to me: > > | 4.1.2 The "atom:entry" Element > | > | The "atom:entry" element represents an individual entry, acting as a > | container for metadata and data associated with the entry. This > | element can appear as a child of the atom:feed element, or it can > | appear as the document (i.e., top-level) element of a standalone Atom > | Entry Document. > | > | The atom:entry element MAY contain any namespace-qualified > | [W3C.REC-xml-names-19990114] elements as children. This > | specification assigns no significance to the order of appearance of > | the child elements of atom:entry. > > Saying that atom:entry may contain namespace-qualified elements as children > really looks out of place. If we say it here, why don't we say it for > atom:feed and other places? I think that sentence should be deleted. Agree. > > Assuming that we *don't* mean for extension elements to appear *anywhere*, > then were do we want them? > > I think we want them: > > 1. In atom:feed metadata > 2. In atom:entry metadata > 3. In PersonConstructs > I think we want to define their role in those locations. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 21 16:43:48 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA29683 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:43:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2LKqEZs062518; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:52:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2LKqECx062517; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:52:14 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2LKqD3r062511 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:52:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ndw@nwalsh.com) Received: from phys-bur-2 ([129.148.9.73]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2LKptRt014906 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:52:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from conversion-daemon.bur-mail1.east.sun.com by bur-mail1.east.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0IDP00601ZABN0@bur-mail1.east.sun.com> (original mail from ndw@nwalsh.com) for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:51:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (vpn-129-150-35-203.Central.Sun.COM [129.150.35.203]) by bur-mail1.east.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0IDP0022XZAFPE@bur-mail1.east.sun.com> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:51:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ndw by localhost with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DDTsP-0002jQ-4X for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:51:53 -0500 X-URL: http://nwalsh.com/ Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:51:52 -0500 From: Norman Walsh Subject: Confused about extensibility To: atom-syntax@imc.org Message-id: <87u0n44t93.fsf@nwalsh.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) Emacs/21.4 (gnu/linux) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not sure the -06 draft tells a consistent story about extensibility. | 6.2 Extensions To the Atom Vocabulary |=20 | Future versions of this specification may add new elements and | attributes to the Atom markup vocabulary. Software written to | conform to this version of the specification will not be able to | process such markup correctly and, in fact, will not be able to | distinguish it from markup error. For the purposes of this | discussion, unrecognized markup from the Atom vocabulary will be | considered "foreign "markup". |=20 | Unlike markup from other vocabularies, foreign markup from the Atom | vocabulary MAY appear at any location in an Atom document. That last paragraph suggests that foreign markup *not* from the Atom vocabulary may not appear at any location, that it must only appear in specified places. But | 6.4 Extension Elements |=20 | Atom allows foreign markup anywhere in an Atom document. Then we're told foreign markup is allowed anywhere. Do we really mean that? The text in 4.1.2 seems related to me: | 4.1.2 The "atom:entry" Element |=20 | The "atom:entry" element represents an individual entry, acting as a | container for metadata and data associated with the entry. This | element can appear as a child of the atom:feed element, or it can | appear as the document (i.e., top-level) element of a standalone Atom | Entry Document. |=20 | The atom:entry element MAY contain any namespace-qualified | [W3C.REC-xml-names-19990114] elements as children. This | specification assigns no significance to the order of appearance of | the child elements of atom:entry. Saying that atom:entry may contain namespace-qualified elements as children really looks out of place. If we say it here, why don't we say it for atom:feed and other places? I think that sentence should be deleted. Assuming that we *don't* mean for extension elements to appear *anywhere*, then were do we want them? I think we want them: 1. In atom:feed metadata 2. In atom:entry metadata 3. In PersonConstructs Should they also be allowed *between* atom:entry elements in a feed? Be seeing you, norm =2D-=20 Norman Walsh | Everything should be made as simple as http://nwalsh.com/ | possible, but no simpler. --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBCPzPoOyltUcwYWjsRAnnTAJ926y2Mj5WgUauiVi3Xzi0EqBqnBwCdEz9B OeUKjFum7aN9fh8TOAvdpzw= =Uv7G -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 21 17:56:51 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA07654 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:56:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2LMmFbF073260; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:48:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2LMmFns073259; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:48:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf01.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.80]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2LMmEUx073245 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:48:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.5.61.111]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D45537C5D; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 23:48:08 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <423F4F63.3070809@cegetel.net> Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 23:49:07 +0100 From: Thomas Broyer User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: fr, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Norman Walsh Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Confused about extensibility References: <87u0n44t93.fsf@nwalsh.com> In-Reply-To: <87u0n44t93.fsf@nwalsh.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Norman Walsh wrote: > I'm not sure the -06 draft tells a consistent story about > extensibility. [...] > Should they also be allowed *between* atom:entry elements in a feed? As the spec uses "interleave" content models, I think they are/will... though I wonder why interlaced content models are used instead of "ordered" content models... that would also allow DTD or XML Schema (or any other schema requiring deterministic content models) to be used to validate Atom documents... -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 21 18:25:41 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA11503 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 18:25:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2LNHBcO078149; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:17:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2LNHBjg078147; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:17:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (smtpout16.mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2LNH9gT078126 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:17:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamta06-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050321231659.ONRW928.mta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta06-winn.mailhost.ntl.com> for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 23:16:59 +0000 Received: from cpc3-stke1-5-0-cust172.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([82.11.128.172]) by aamta06-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050321231659.IYLS5678.aamta06-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@cpc3-stke1-5-0-cust172.bagu.cable.ntl.com> for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 23:16:59 +0000 Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 23:16:57 +0000 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.9.7 Return (pre-beta)) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <548678237.20050321231657@djpowell.net> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Updated Atom2RDF stylesheet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've updated my Atom to RDF/XML XSLT transform to implement draft-06. I think that it implements everything, including: * xml:lang and xml:base resolution * Structured and Simple Extension constructs * Resolving of defaulted atom:author elements. There is an RDFS schema of the model up there too. http://djpowell.net/atomrdf/0.1/ Does anyone else have any experimental draft-06 feeds available for testing? -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 21 18:44:13 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA13641 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 18:44:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2LNbT39080854; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:37:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2LNbT30080853; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:37:29 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxsf36.cluster1.charter.net (mxsf36.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.161]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2LNbSPA080836 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:37:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ndw@nwalsh.com) Received: from mxip01.cluster1.charter.net (mxip01a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.131]) by mxsf36.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j2LNbMOX018621 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 18:37:22 -0500 Received: from cpe-68-112-233-63.ma.charter.com (HELO localhost) (68.112.233.63) by mxip01.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 21 Mar 2005 18:37:22 -0500 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.91,108,1110171600"; d="scan'208"; a="649532497:sNHT37298640" Received: from ndw by localhost with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DDWSQ-0004Xx-Lv for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 18:37:14 -0500 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Confused about extensibility References: <87u0n44t93.fsf@nwalsh.com> <423F4F63.3070809@cegetel.net> From: Norman Walsh X-URL: http://nwalsh.com/ Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 18:37:14 -0500 In-Reply-To: <423F4F63.3070809@cegetel.net> (Thomas Broyer's message of "Mon, 21 Mar 2005 23:49:07 +0100") Message-ID: <87k6o0woyd.fsf@nwalsh.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) Emacs/21.4 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable / Thomas Broyer was heard to say: | Norman Walsh wrote: |> I'm not sure the -06 draft tells a consistent story about |> extensibility. | [...] |> Should they also be allowed *between* atom:entry elements in a feed? | | As the spec uses "interleave" content models, I think they are/will... In the -06 draft, a feed is an interleave of metadata elements followed by a sequence of 0 or more atom:entry elements. | though I wonder why interlaced content models are used instead of | "ordered" content models... that would also allow DTD or XML Schema | (or any other schema requiring deterministic content models) to be | used to validate Atom documents... Because the spec says they aren't ordered. Be seeing you, norm =2D-=20 Norman Walsh | Where it is permissible both to die and http://nwalsh.com/ | not to die, it is an abuse of valour to | die.-- Mencius --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBCP1qqOyltUcwYWjsRAt9JAJsEgYj2/+6nbb9o+XYggah0PQb6vQCgn6iZ XKpC8LeDbOzZRk5i/LdAqYA= =/Qev -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Mar 22 03:21:14 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA15102 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 03:21:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2M8Av1b064878; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 00:10:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2M8Avsb064877; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 00:10:57 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf01.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.80]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2M8AuFg064833 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 00:10:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from cegetel.net (217-19-192-101.dti.cegetel.net [217.19.192.101]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 6DAC937EBC; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:10:48 +0100 (CET) Received: from 82.127.77.43 (SquirrelMail authenticated user t.broyer@cegetel.net) by ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com with HTTP; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:10:50 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <1782.82.127.77.43.1111479050.squirrel@ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:10:50 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: Confused about extensibility From: "Thomas Broyer" To: In-Reply-To: <87k6o0woyd.fsf@nwalsh.com> References: <87u0n44t93.fsf@nwalsh.com> <423F4F63.3070809@cegetel.net> <87k6o0woyd.fsf@nwalsh.com> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Cc: X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.10) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Norman Walsh wrote: > |> Should they also be allowed *between* atom:entry elements in a feed? > | > | As the spec uses "interleave" content models, I think they are/will... > > In the -06 draft, a feed is an interleave of metadata elements followed > by a sequence of 0 or more atom:entry elements. Hmm, right, sorry... > | though I wonder why interlaced content models are used instead of | > "ordered" content models... that would also allow DTD or XML Schema | > (or any other schema requiring deterministic content models) to be | > used to validate Atom documents... > > Because the spec says they aren't ordered. Well, by "ordered", I actually meant "non-interleaved", e.g. having a deterministic content model... -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Mar 22 05:01:20 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA24919 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 05:01:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2M9qKMf001613; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 01:52:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2M9qKD9001612; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 01:52:20 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2M9qJ6T001599 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 01:52:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from duerst@w3.org) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F9964F09E; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 04:52:17 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20050322161922.08094210@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:20:29 +0900 To: David Powell , Atom-Syntax From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: IRI references to images In-Reply-To: <529041090.20050319003858@djpowell.net> References: <529041090.20050319003858@djpowell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree. This allows images to be relative. Please note that in both cases, fragments are allowed, although I don't know any image format for which they'd be useful at the moment. Regards, Martin. At 09:38 05/03/19, David Powell wrote: > > >>From draft-06: > >> The "atom:icon" element's content is an IRI [RFC3987] which >> identifies an image which provides iconic visual identification for >> a feed > >> The "atom:image" element's content is an IRI [RFC3987] which >> identifies an image which provides visual identific > >I think these should both be IRI references, not IRIs. > >-- >Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Mar 22 05:09:10 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA25574 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 05:09:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2MA378G005775; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 02:03:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2MA37Bf005774; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 02:03:07 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.versatel.nl (smtp2.versatel.nl [62.58.50.89]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2MA35R9005734 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 02:03:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fora@annevankesteren.nl) Received: (qmail 27090 invoked by uid 10); 22 Mar 2005 10:02:57 -0000 Received: (vexira-qq 27079-E17E1DE7 invoked from network) 22 Mar 2005 11:02:56 +0100 Received: from unknown (HELO [127.0.0.1]) ([81.59.155.152]) (envelope-sender ) by smtp2.versatel.nl (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for < >; 22 Mar 2005 10:02:56 -0000 Message-ID: <423FED52.4050301@annevankesteren.nl> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:02:58 +0100 From: Anne van Kesteren User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Duerst CC: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: IRI references to images References: <529041090.20050319003858@djpowell.net> <6.0.0.20.2.20050322161922.08094210@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20050322161922.08094210@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiVirus: checked by Vexira MailArmor (version: 2.0.1.16; VAE: 6.30.0.2; VDF: 6.30.0.11; host: postbode02.zonnet.nl) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Martin Duerst wrote: > I agree. This allows images to be relative. Please note > that in both cases, fragments are allowed, although I don't > know any image format for which they'd be useful at the moment. I believe they are useful for SVG. -- Anne van Kesteren From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Mar 22 09:55:10 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA20201 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:55:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2MEjvlH092081; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 06:45:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2MEjvmM092080; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 06:45:57 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.197]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2MEjuqo092071 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 06:45:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id g11so1426932rne for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 06:45:50 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=NhIXUWgftHCQJzI1BcuU0PJ3tVLaOjLRG7HEv+QYm3yJXnh1sFZIp4OHG4Vddd1V3paVsDP31BDUBz/LVjUtb7CQCt9F6j+abvPHdhponUv8F7M0fEbuFSTg3kcWo5i5u6f849kpEixV4ch9ajpdqh+PDgx+GR+lOWeKAlKCpKU= Received: by 10.38.207.18 with SMTP id e18mr5364376rng; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 06:45:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.151.18 with HTTP; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 06:45:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3f1451f505032206452ab151c7@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:45:50 -0500 From: Joe Gregorio Reply-To: Joe Gregorio To: "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" Subject: draft-ietf-atompub-format-06 - value of link @rel. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://atompub.org/2005/03/12/draft-ietf-atompub-format-06.html#rfc.section.4.2.9 "The value of "rel" MUST be either a name that is non-empty and does not contain any colon (":") characters, or a IRI [RFC3987]." Shouldt we explicitly disallow *any* reserved [1] characters? -joe [1] http://www.gbiv.com/protocols/uri/rfc/rfc3986.html#reserved -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Mar 22 18:26:08 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA20304 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 18:26:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2MNJNgr029609; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:19:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2MNJND6029608; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:19:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2MNJK58029600 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:19:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0cdfl9t.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.213.61] helo=[192.168.0.3]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DDseZ-0002Bn-Uv; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 23:19:16 +0000 Message-ID: <4240A80F.5070905@franklinmint.fm> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 18:19:43 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Norman Walsh CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: extensibility fixes References: <87u0n44t93.fsf@nwalsh.com> In-Reply-To: <87u0n44t93.fsf@nwalsh.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > | 6.2 Extensions To the Atom Vocabulary > | Unlike markup from other vocabularies, foreign markup from the Atom > | vocabulary MAY appear at any location in an Atom document. Propose to strike this sentence. > > | 6.4 Extension Elements > | > | Atom allows foreign markup anywhere in an Atom document. Propose to keep this sentence. > | 4.1.2 The "atom:entry" Element > | > | The atom:entry element MAY contain any namespace-qualified > | [W3C.REC-xml-names-19990114] elements as children. Propose to strike this sentence. Propose to adjust the following sentence: 6.4 Extension Elements Child elements of atom:entry and atom:feed are considered "metadata" elements, and are described below. to Child elements of atom:entry, atom:feed, and Person constructs are considered "metadata" elements, and are described below. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Mar 22 18:46:27 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA22095 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 18:46:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2MNfBbh030902; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:41:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2MNfBne030901; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:41:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2MNfAZV030895 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:41:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2MNfAX8000565 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:41:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IDS00MCV1SMEB@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:41:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.20] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IDS0075Y1SLOK@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:41:10 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:41:23 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: extensibility fixes In-reply-to: <4240A80F.5070905@franklinmint.fm> To: Robert Sayre Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org, Norman Walsh Message-id: <1a8d9eb54a2f48dadaa296bc8af31571@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <87u0n44t93.fsf@nwalsh.com> <4240A80F.5070905@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT These feel consistent with the discussions so far. Let's officially close discussion of draft-06 on Friday and go to our AD/last-call next week. > > >> | 6.2 Extensions To the Atom Vocabulary > >> | Unlike markup from other vocabularies, foreign markup from the >> Atom >> | vocabulary MAY appear at any location in an Atom document. > > Propose to strike this sentence. > >> | 6.4 Extension Elements >> | | Atom allows foreign markup anywhere in an Atom document. > > Propose to keep this sentence. > > > >> | 4.1.2 The "atom:entry" Element >> | | The atom:entry element MAY contain any namespace-qualified >> | [W3C.REC-xml-names-19990114] elements as children. > > Propose to strike this sentence. > > > Propose to adjust the following sentence: > > 6.4 Extension Elements > > Child elements of atom:entry and atom:feed are considered "metadata" > elements, and are described below. > > to > > Child elements of atom:entry, atom:feed, and Person constructs are > considered "metadata" elements, and are described below. > > Robert Sayre > > - Tim Bray, Director of Web Technologies, Sun Microsystems +1-877-305-0889 Sun ext. 60561 http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/ AIM: MarkupPedant From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 23 08:30:12 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA13300 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:30:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2NDJXLm019703; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 05:19:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2NDJX4w019702; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 05:19:33 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from motgate4.mot.com (motgate4.mot.com [144.189.100.102]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2NDJXWq019693 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 05:19:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett.lindsley@labs.mot.com) Received: from il06exr04.mot.com (il06exr04.mot.com [129.188.137.134]) by motgate4.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate4) with ESMTP id j2NDOEDr010020 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 06:24:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from labs.mot.com (udomsvc2.labs.mot.com [173.23.250.2]) by il06exr04.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j2NDKepg012420 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 07:20:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from udomsvc5.labs.mot.com (udomsvc5.labs.mot.com [173.23.250.5]) by labs.mot.com (MotLabs Smoke & Mirrors) with ESMTP id j2NDJWtv004344 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 07:19:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from labs.mot.com by ims1.labs.mot.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 (built Feb 21 2002)) with ESMTP id <0IDT00HBS3OKWS@ims1.labs.mot.com> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 07:19:32 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 07:19:29 -0600 From: Brett Lindsley Subject: Why is alternate link a MUST? Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Message-id: <42416CE1.3010609@labs.mot.com> Organization: Mot Labs MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en,pdf User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 References: <87br9h3qhg.fsf@nwalsh.com> <423B245B.9090001@franklinmint.fm> <87acp01zis.fsf@nwalsh.com> <352532918.20050319115630@djpowell.net> <423C3B90.6070509@gmx.de> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I know this discussion has occured before, but I would like to revisit the question of why an atom:feed MUST contain at least one atom:link element with a relation of "alternate" (-06 4.1.1). The defintition of the alternate representation is it "identifes an alternate version of the resource" (Sec 4.2.9.2). However, is it realistic to believe that *every* feed has an alternate version? This becomes even more confusing if one considers the possibility of branching out using service.feed to filtered, searched or aggregated views. One would expect the link to have an alternate representation of the filtered, searched or aggregated feed as well. I have seen some examples where a home page was used for all of the alternate representations. Is a home page really an alternate representation? Putting a home page in feeds that are filtered or aggregated versions is also misleading because the home page would most likely not be an alternate representation of the filtered/aggregated feed. I can also think of situations where a server hosts feeds that do not have an alternate representation nor have a home page. In this case, why have a required link that serves no useful purpose. Why isn't this requirement a "may" instead of a "must"? I can see having a link with rel=alternate if indeed a alternate version does exist. It does not make sense to put in some something misleading if an alternate does not exist. Brett Lindsley, Motorola Labs From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 23 09:04:22 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA16292 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:04:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2NDvMOg025470; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 05:57:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2NDvMQ5025469; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 05:57:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.versatel.nl (smtp2.versatel.nl [62.58.50.89]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2NDvL5p025458 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 05:57:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fora@annevankesteren.nl) Received: (qmail 4408 invoked by uid 10); 23 Mar 2005 13:57:15 -0000 Received: (vexira-qq 04402-676AAA64 invoked from network) 23 Mar 2005 14:57:15 +0100 Received: from unknown (HELO [127.0.0.1]) ([81.59.155.152]) (envelope-sender ) by smtp2.versatel.nl (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for < >; 23 Mar 2005 13:57:15 -0000 Message-ID: <424175BF.60903@annevankesteren.nl> Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:57:19 +0100 From: Anne van Kesteren User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anne van Kesteren CC: Tim Bray , "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" Subject: Re: s/url/web/ References: <6af7ee6d830644cf299f390a2847a6b2@sun.com> <423A87B2.3020806@annevankesteren.nl> In-Reply-To: <423A87B2.3020806@annevankesteren.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiVirus: checked by Vexira MailArmor (version: 2.0.1.16; VAE: 6.30.0.2; VDF: 6.30.0.11; host: postbode02.zonnet.nl) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anne van Kesteren wrote: >> EDITORIAL: >> >> There are a couple of places where we use "uri" in the markup, >> specifically the "atom:uri" element (3.2.2) and the "uri" attribute of >> "atom:generator" (4.2.5). >> >> In both cases they're not actually URIs, they're IRIs, so the name is >> WRONG, except for nobody knows what an IRI is so renaming them "iri" >> would be confusing, and anyhow everyone thinks of URLs not *RIs, but >> naming them "url" would be wrong too, so why don't we actually change >> them to say what they're there for not what their syntax is and use >> "web" in both cases? -Tim > > Web Forms 2 uses |type="uri"| as well. (It accepts IRIs.) Web Forms 2 now uses |type="url"| to be more consistent with CSS2.1. I suggest Atom does the same. (Change atom:uri to atom:url.) -- Anne van Kesteren From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 23 11:18:45 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA01537 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:18:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2NG9kOW035075; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:09:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2NG9kAq035074; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:09:46 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2NG9j94035065 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:09:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j2NG90T5023677 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:09:11 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: <424175BF.60903@annevankesteren.nl> References: <6af7ee6d830644cf299f390a2847a6b2@sun.com> <423A87B2.3020806@annevankesteren.nl> <424175BF.60903@annevankesteren.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <17a9598c48a76bc3c76ee68bcf3af48f@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Graham Subject: Re: s/url/web/ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:07:49 +0000 To: "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit May I suggest HREF? It's address format and class agnostic. Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 23 12:16:05 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA08144 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:16:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2NH8KQ7041310; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:08:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2NH8KCd041309; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:08:20 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2NH8JYn041301 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:08:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2NH8IX8004855 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:08:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IDT007LAE9U98@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:08:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.102.100] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IDT006R2E9T44@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:08:18 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:08:33 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: s/url/web/ In-reply-to: <17a9598c48a76bc3c76ee68bcf3af48f@mac.com> To: Graham Cc: "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <6af7ee6d830644cf299f390a2847a6b2@sun.com> <423A87B2.3020806@annevankesteren.nl> <424175BF.60903@annevankesteren.nl> <17a9598c48a76bc3c76ee68bcf3af48f@mac.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mar 23, 2005, at 8:07 AM, Graham wrote: > May I suggest HREF? It's address format and class agnostic. If I hadn't firmly promised myself that I would keep my damn mouth shut about this, I'd be +1. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 23 16:17:02 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA06524 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:17:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2NL9ra6061934; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:09:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2NL9rNH061933; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:09:53 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2NL9qUJ061926 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:09:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dinaras@cnri.reston.va.us) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA04694; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:09:50 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200503232109.QAA04694@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-03.txt Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:09:50 -0500 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Atom Publishing Format and Protocol Working Group of the IETF. Title : The Atom Publishing Protocol Author(s) : J. Gregorio, R. Sayre Filename : draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-03.txt Pages : 22 Date : 2005-3-23 This memo presents a protocol for using XML (Extensible Markup Language) and HTTP (HyperText Transport Protocol) to edit content. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-03.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-03.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-03.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-3-23164307.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-03.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-03.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-3-23164307.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 23 18:17:29 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA05019 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:17:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2NN29IL071835; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:02:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2NN2944071834; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:02:09 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2NN28Vm071808 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:02:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from duerst@w3.org) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 951304F138; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:02:05 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20050324075329.07766ec0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:01:25 +0900 To: Dan Brickley , Bjoern Hoehrmann From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: s/url/web/ Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <20050318184204.GE26039@homer.w3.org> References: <20050318112446.GM26039@homer.w3.org> <24398F5C-97C4-11D9-8026-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <20050318162424.GW26039@homer.w3.org> <423b1b9d.840074218@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <20050318184204.GE26039@homer.w3.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dan, The problem I have with using "web" is that there is a "pars pro toto" (or probably rather the other way) problem here. I.e. the Web is defined by *all* the resources identified by an URI/IRI, whereas the element we are trying to name points to just one of them. Given all the proposals, my opinion is currently about as follows: [wrap up and ship: +1] ref/href: +0.8 uri, iri: +0.5 at, about: +0.2 web, internet: +- 0 url: -0.2 (outdated) Regards, Martin. At 03:42 05/03/19, Dan Brickley wrote: > >* Bjoern Hoehrmann [2005-03-18 19:31+0100] >> * Dan Brickley wrote: >> >> I think the question is which of these is meant by "the web": >> >> >I encourage Atom to follow the WebArch REC, let's call it (d), >> >http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#intro >> >[[ >> >The World Wide Web (WWW, or simply Web) is an information space in which >> >the items of interest, referred to as resources, are identified by >> >global identifiers called Uniform Resource Identifiers (URI). >> >]] >> >> Let's ignore that not all IRIs are URIs and let's assume that this is a >> definition of "Web", are you saying that this definition is equivalent >> to 'the set of all URIs is the information space "Web"'? If those are >> not equivalent I am not sure what you are suggesting here. > >The definition says, in effect, "The Web is an information space in >which we use URIs when identifying things". It does not rule out >other, complementary, identification mechanisms, nor does it equate the >Web with any specific set of entities. It is an over-arching >abstraction, not a set of URI-named things, nor the set of URIs. I guess >it is (and I cringe at the word), a bit like "cyberspace". Nobody really >expects there to be real answers to "how many things are 'in' cyberspace?", >since that is over-stretching the metaphor. Same with Web, I think. > >Dan From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 23 20:37:03 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA18732 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:37:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2O1SWfD086062; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:28:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2O1SWtt086061; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:28:32 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.203]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2O1SVnW086046 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:28:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id b11so407115rne for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:28:30 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=gQzUz7+TVAvjKM+UsipqZULOeSI+kdZ6T6bLwTxLuCjEdW9xlO8VT+0/wFteT8wuv3A3v5Zh7HIMEzTtAWhXD94sk7c0JDJJF8SNSgJkIbvN2lQYY+g4pn/MDzCUzMia6vHm5uA1UJDQ/N6hTlp3fQEOmXQqR7q0Lm8Hqof4skg= Received: by 10.38.151.33 with SMTP id y33mr1115213rnd; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:28:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.151.18 with HTTP; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:28:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3f1451f50503231728ebbbec1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:28:29 -0500 From: Joe Gregorio Reply-To: Joe Gregorio Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-03.txt Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org, Atom Protocol In-Reply-To: <200503232109.QAA04694@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200503232109.QAA04694@ietf.org> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The non-normative HTML and XML versions, as well as diffs between -02 and -03 are available here: http://bitworking.org/projects/atom/ Thanks, -joe On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:09:50 -0500, Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote: > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the Atom Publishing Format and Protocol Working Group of the IETF. > > Title : The Atom Publishing Protocol > Author(s) : J. Gregorio, R. Sayre > Filename : draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-03.txt > Pages : 22 > Date : 2005-3-23 > > This memo presents a protocol for using XML (Extensible Markup > Language) and HTTP (HyperText Transport Protocol) to edit content. > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-03.txt > > To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to > i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. > You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce > to change your subscription settings. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username > "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, > type "cd internet-drafts" and then > "get draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-03.txt". > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > > Send a message to: > mailserv@ietf.org. > In the body type: > "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-03.txt". > > NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split > up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on > how to manipulate these messages. > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the > Internet-Draft. > > > > -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 24 02:19:29 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA04891 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 02:19:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2O7BtFB040537; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 23:11:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2O7Btga040536; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 23:11:55 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.versatel.nl (smtp1.versatel.nl [62.58.50.88]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2O7Brpc040485 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 23:11:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fora@annevankesteren.nl) Received: (qmail 6334 invoked by uid 10); 24 Mar 2005 07:11:46 -0000 Received: (vexira-qq 06328-F4A5D300 invoked from network) 24 Mar 2005 08:11:46 +0100 Received: from unknown (HELO [127.0.0.1]) ([81.59.155.152]) (envelope-sender ) by smtp1.versatel.nl (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for < >; 24 Mar 2005 07:11:46 -0000 Message-ID: <42426838.8020708@annevankesteren.nl> Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:11:52 +0100 From: Anne van Kesteren User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Duerst CC: Dan Brickley , Bjoern Hoehrmann , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: s/url/web/ References: <20050318112446.GM26039@homer.w3.org> <24398F5C-97C4-11D9-8026-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <20050318162424.GW26039@homer.w3.org> <423b1b9d.840074218@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <20050318184204.GE26039@homer.w3.org> <6.0.0.20.2.20050324075329.07766ec0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20050324075329.07766ec0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiVirus: checked by Vexira MailArmor (version: 2.0.1.16; VAE: 6.30.0.2; VDF: 6.30.0.11; host: postbode01.zonnet.nl) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Martin Duerst wrote: > url: -0.2 (outdated) It may be outdated, but it is the one everyone is using and it is also used by CSS. -- Anne van Kesteren From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 24 18:57:11 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA21560 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 18:57:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2ONl1fj021673; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:47:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2ONl19b021670; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:47:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (smtpout16.mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2ONkc7q021647 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:46:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050324234633.VYRT928.mta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com>; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 23:46:33 +0000 Received: from cpc3-stok1-5-0-cust172.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([82.11.128.172]) by aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050324234633.PCHX1187.aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@cpc3-stok1-5-0-cust172.bagu.cable.ntl.com>; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 23:46:33 +0000 Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 23:43:21 +0000 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.9.8 Return (pre-beta)) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1378884251.20050324234321@djpowell.net> To: Robert Sayre CC: Norman Walsh , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: extensibility fixes In-Reply-To: <4240A80F.5070905@franklinmint.fm> References: <87u0n44t93.fsf@nwalsh.com> <4240A80F.5070905@franklinmint.fm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of the impacts identified [1] with PaceLangSpecific, was that we needed to make a decision about the language-sensitivity of extensions. I didn't propose an amendment to PaceExtensionConstruct at the time, because PaceExtensionConstruct had been accused by the chairs of being "unstable" due to the amendments made following earlier feedback. [Abstract] Structured Extension constructs should be language-sensitive. [Rationale] Currently, the specification implies that Structured Extension constructs are not language-sensitive. This means that they aren't allowed to pay attention to in-scope xml:lang tags. [Proposal] In Section 6.4.2, add the sentence: Structured Extension constructs are language-sensitive. [1] http://intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceLangSpecific#head-261b3b049c9b50b9dda180b9fdb6257bd3b26248 -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 24 20:28:51 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA00059 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 20:28:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2P1H1vM025829; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:17:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2P1H1pa025828; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:17:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2P1GxKe025818 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:17:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (203.30.247.2) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Fri, 25 Mar 2005 14:17:49 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:16:55 +1100 Subject: Re: extensibility fixes From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1378884251.20050324234321@djpowell.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 25/3/05 10:43 AM, "David Powell" wrote: > [Proposal] > > In Section 6.4.2, add the sentence: > > Structured Extension constructs are language-sensitive. +1 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 24 22:54:47 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA14596 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 22:54:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2P3iP5e037339; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 19:44:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2P3iPVq037338; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 19:44:25 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2P3iNbc037330 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 19:44:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12ld22h.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.136.81] helo=[192.168.1.101]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DEfkD-0005Sq-Qv; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 03:44:22 +0000 Message-ID: <42438911.2040607@franklinmint.fm> Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 22:44:17 -0500 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: mint@franklinmint.fm User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Scheid CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: extensibility fixes References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Scheid wrote: > On 25/3/05 10:43 AM, "David Powell" wrote: > > >>[Proposal] >> >>In Section 6.4.2, add the sentence: >> >>Structured Extension constructs are language-sensitive. > > > +1 > +1 Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 25 03:55:05 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA29963 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 03:55:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2P8gmov015744; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 00:42:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2P8gmSx015743; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 00:42:48 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.195]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2P8gka6015723 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 00:42:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so571382rnz for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 00:42:46 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=uZIFT/+AzcOGYHRm+g/mg+areHgxT+dNARR0KD8WsCHPoBNG0D9Kd26Ta5hoTMHBqlmnPjeaNEeIRJDJQTZyVnhM86euI8yRhLsYRp0Yy97gB3L39wDRAg1LjQNagLIdSMpyX7XP/46a4RLm1ob17c/xot0ooMHSRo6aD0Dk8d0= Received: by 10.38.206.58 with SMTP id d58mr2635310rng; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 00:42:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.25 with HTTP; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 00:42:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd05032500425cda9097@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:42:45 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: mint@franklinmint.fm Subject: Re: extensibility fixes Cc: Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: <42438911.2040607@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <42438911.2040607@franklinmint.fm> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +1 looking good. Note also: 3.2 Person Constructs ... Person constructs MAY be extended by namespace-qualified element children. I'd suggest either striking this or (preferably) adding: "See 6.4 Extension Elements". Cheers, Danny. On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 22:44:17 -0500, Robert Sayre wrote: > > Eric Scheid wrote: > > On 25/3/05 10:43 AM, "David Powell" wrote: > > > > > >>[Proposal] > >> > >>In Section 6.4.2, add the sentence: > >> > >>Structured Extension constructs are language-sensitive. > > > > > > +1 > > > > +1 > > Robert Sayre > > -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 25 04:38:41 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA04316 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 04:38:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2P9UAkc031765; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 01:30:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2P9UAF8031764; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 01:30:10 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.196]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2P9U3ZF031724 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 01:30:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so574648rnz for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 01:30:02 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=fm4FTeILVgOGqtJGP3IOXP/HNv/eCeNbH282EKRpJfE9OiGm5MYhCN7gzTpUGN8EBGgbLsn1Ya/Ex2rbg2/S0RTBh46Iet93GFaPaYP1GFay9Ui6IWoRbOYW9oEWSPejxYnOlqy0JIPoVDorhv+XRfFcKtbeSydV/kkMZlRbeUg= Received: by 10.38.206.58 with SMTP id d58mr2649871rng; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 01:30:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.25 with HTTP; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 01:30:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0503250130132af4e6@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:30:02 +0100 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: David Powell Subject: Re: Updated Atom2RDF stylesheet Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org, mark@markwoodman.com, mnot@mnot.net, henry.story@bblfish.net In-Reply-To: <548678237.20050321231657@djpowell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <548678237.20050321231657@djpowell.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 23:16:57 +0000, David Powell wrote: > > > I've updated my Atom to RDF/XML XSLT transform to implement draft-06. Great stuff! I've updated links etc. accordingly at: http://semtext.org/atom/ Anything needs adding there, please let me know. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 25 07:50:19 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA22405 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:50:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PCfeT8096938; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 04:41:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2PCfeWF096937; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 04:41:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PCfeRg096930 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 04:41:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 51458 invoked by uid 17064); 25 Mar 2005 12:41:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.6]) ([83.112.109.254]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 25 Mar 2005 12:41:40 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <31a59bd34d09a197c1a871330f96aafb@bblfish.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: Atom Syntax From: Henry Story Subject: copyright Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:41:37 +0100 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I just looked at Lawrence Lessig's presentation to the Library of Congress [1], and noticed his blog that shows Yahoo! search launching a creative commons search engine [2]. Clearly it would be very helpful if there were a machine readable way to set copyright policy on entries. Any thoughts on that? Henry Story [1] http://bblfish.net/blog/page5.html#43 [2] http://www.lessig.org/blog/archives/002790.shtml From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 25 08:29:59 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA25909 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:29:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PDHV4T010058; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 05:17:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2PDHVtO010057; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 05:17:31 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nic-naa.net (nic-naa.net [216.220.241.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PDHSdK010032 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 05:17:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brunner@nic-naa.net) Received: from nic-naa.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nic-naa.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j2PDESxc032932; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:14:28 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brunner@nic-naa.net) Message-Id: <200503251314.j2PDESxc032932@nic-naa.net> To: Henry Story cc: Atom Syntax , brunner@nic-naa.net Subject: Re: copyright In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:41:37 +0100." <31a59bd34d09a197c1a871330f96aafb@bblfish.net> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:14:28 -0500 From: Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: well, we did something similar with p3p, metadata consisting of a a vocab, either associated with a namespace element, or with an html method. during the life of the drm wg i discussed the possibility of a similar mechanism to express some drm metadata. from my pov, p3p already expresses licensing language -- the recipients and retention and access (republication, distribution, persistence, original author rights) elements in particular. "your data is mine, i get to munge it arbitrarily and flog it on to others under arbitrary terms, indefintly, and no you can't change anything" -- p3p allows alternate expressions of "license" (data collection practices). From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 25 08:57:03 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA28438 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:57:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PDmcmR016248; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 05:48:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2PDmcWU016247; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 05:48:38 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PDmbdS016237 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 05:48:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j2PDlVlU009948 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:47:37 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" From: Graham Subject: Date accuracy Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:47:29 +0000 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are several RSS feeds out there that have dates where the day is accurate but the time is always the same (usually 10am for some reason), regardless of the time of publication, which completely messes up sorting the day's entries. Currently the Atom spec implies that this is bad practice by requiring a time, but could we make it explicit? Proposal: Add to Date Construct section: "Date values must have a granularity of one second" Graham Parks From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 25 11:43:27 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA16133 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:43:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PGc8OK026338; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:38:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2PGc8ho026337; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:38:08 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr4.netsolmail.com (omr4.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PGc8RA026329 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:38:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr4.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2PGc6qn004538; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:38:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id CVF73912 (AUTH bob@wyman.us); Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:38:04 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200503251638.CVF73912@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Henry Story'" , "'Atom Syntax'" Subject: RE: copyright, Creative Commons, and DRM in Atom/RSS Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:38:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <31a59bd34d09a197c1a871330f96aafb@bblfish.net> Thread-Index: AcUxOnAwjvP++yHgRhWEE2q+JmnChAAHDYpQ Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henry Story wrote: > Yahoo! search launching a creative commons search engine ... it would be > very helpful if there were a machine readable way to set copyright > policy on entries. I recently wrote on my blog about issues with Creative Commons. I suggest you read the post. See: http://bobwyman.pubsub.com/main/2005/03/lazyweb_query_a.html The basic message is that we should not be writing anything that implies that Creative Commons should be used for Digital Rights Management. To do so would be a violation of both the letter and spirit of the Creative Commons Licenses. Creative Commons is about granting rights, not restricting them. The goal of creative commons is to take content whose use would be normally restricted by existing copyright law and to "liberate" it by permitting the owner to explicitly grant particular uses. Although this is commonly misunderstood, there is no language in Creative Common licenses that allows you to say that some particular use is *not* permitted. Creative Commons only lets you say what uses are permitted. The misunderstanding typically comes around the "non-commercial use" stuff in Creative Commons. People often read this as a statement that commercial use is prohibited. However, this reading is wrong. What a "non-commercial" Creative Commons license does is grant non-commercial rights while being silent on commercial use. Such a license says, in effect: "You can ignore whatever laws, etc. would normally restrict non-commercial use. However, any restrictions established by law, etc. that apply to commercial use are left unmodified." A "non-commercial" Creative Commons license does not prohibit commercial use -- it simply fails to address the issue. Thus, if you were to build a system that prohibited commercial use of content with a Creative Commons non-commercial use license, you would be saying that you thought that existing law, etc. prohibited commercial use in the absence of an explicit grant of such rights via Creative Commons or some other mechanism. What this means is that you would have to implement a policy that prohibited all commercial use unless there was a Creative Commons commercial use grant. Basically, you would have to shut down all commercial use of RSS/Atom, by default and only permit it if it was explicitly addressed in licenses. Given that this would immediately "turn off" just about the entire Blogosphere, it probably isn't what you want to do. If you want a mechanism to permit a rights owner to affirm that something like commercial use is prohibited, you would have to create a new format -- something other than Creative Commons. Unfortunately, to do that, you would have to first find some tiny hole in the carpet of hundreds of patents that surround the software licensing and Digital Rights Management space. Personally, I think it is very unlikely that you would be successful. We're going to have to wait 10 or so years before those patents start expiring. So, in summary, let's not go down the DRM path. It is a snake pit from which no good will come. Also, please see my post about Creative Commons at: http://bobwyman.pubsub.com/main/2005/03/lazyweb_query_a.html bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 25 11:46:27 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA16348 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:46:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PGalYS026273; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:36:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2PGalKZ026272; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:36:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PGakOb026266 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:36:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 77850 invoked by uid 17064); 25 Mar 2005 16:36:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.6]) ([83.112.229.151]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 25 Mar 2005 16:36:46 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: Atom Syntax From: Henry Story Subject: link confusion? Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:36:43 +0100 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was trying to interpret the spec link element and found it a little confusing. If I try to look at the spec in a simple relational way (what is being related to what?) then, given the following example xml, ... "en" |-length-> 450 |-title--> "The html entry" |--rel---> "related" But that does not seem quite right. There seems first of all to be a confusion about properties related to the link, and properties related to the thing the link is linking to. For example the length, type and hreflang attributes are about the resources pointed to by the link, whereas the rel and title attributes are relations describing the link. So a better interpretation of the initial xml would be the following _e1--is-a-> |--link-> _link |--to---->_r--is-a-> | |--href--> | |--type--> "text/html" | |--lang--> "en" | |-length-> 450 |-title--> "The html entry" |--rel---> "related" We know that the thing that link is linking _to_ is not a resource but a representation because we have specified the mime type, length and language of the thing linked to, and these are properties of representations, not resources. A resource as we all know can have many representations, not only over time, but at the same time. So the above graph would seem to capture much better what we are trying to relate to what. By doing this I think it becomes much easier to understand what is happening with the link element, and so also to extend it properly. But if this is a correct interpretation of what is happening then perhaps this should also be clearer in the xml itself. Would the following perhaps not be a little better then: ... It would at least then be possible to see how one can have a certain type of link to multiple representations (perhaps different language version of the entry for example) ... It would at least seem to be differentiating better between the two elements that are currently muddled in the link construct, and may even open up some interesting possibilities. Henry Story From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 25 12:11:43 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA18481 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:11:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PH1wag027804; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:01:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2PH1w98027803; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:01:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PH1vi8027797 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:01:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PH1vRr011192 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:01:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IDX00HPU3AUTJ@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:01:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.17] ([216.113.204.232]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IDX0021F3AUZZ@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:01:42 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:01:59 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Date accuracy In-reply-to: To: Graham Cc: "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" Message-id: <20e96bdf892de264eab8f36eb962e015@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mar 25, 2005, at 5:47 AM, Graham wrote: > Proposal: Add to Date Construct section: > "Date values must have a granularity of one second" Could we make this a SHOULD? Whereas Graham is correct in the normal case, I have an alternate scenario at 'ongoing'. Normally, the "updated" comes from the timestamp on the input version of the file; I don't have any externally-stored datestamps aside from knowing the day it was created. However, when I don't want to show the thing as updated, I put a special element in the input version and the software then emits a pubDate of 02:00 hours on the creation day. This works well enough, but if it were a MUST, I'd have to keep one more date value around for each piece, which seems to have a lousy return on investment. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 25 12:17:24 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA18963 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:17:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PHBctm028320; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:11:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2PHBc9c028319; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:11:38 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PHBbwC028307 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:11:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j2PHBErF019713 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:11:24 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <01053a0b6b4c16c6633e819320803810@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" From: Graham Subject: Alternative to the date regex Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:11:09 +0000 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Currently we have this "A Date construct is an element whose content MUST conform to the date-time BNF rule in [RFC3339]. I.e., the content of this element matches this regular expression: [0-9]{8}T[0-9]{2}:[0-9]{2}:[0-9]{2}(\.[0-9]+) ?(Z|[\+\-][0-9]{2}:[0-9]{2}) As a result, the date values conform to the following specifications..." The problem with the regex is that it's entirely redundant. If we look at Norm's message where the regex was suggested [1], he intends it as a profile of xsd:dateTime, which allows a variety of date formats. However we're using it as a profile of RFC3339, which already requires that date-times match the regex 100%. Having the regex there as well is just confusing - until preparing this email I was under the impression it made some additional restrictions on RFC3339. The nearest thing I see to an additional restriction is that there must be a capital T between the date and time, which the date-time BNF rule we mention also requires, but the prose later mentions you might be allowed to use something different. Proposal: Replace the first para and regex with: A Date construct is an element whose content MUST conform to the date-time BNF rule in [RFC3339]. Note this requires an uppercase letter T between the date and time sections. Secondly, *all* RFC3339 date-times are compatible with the 4 specs mentioned, so the wording of the second paragraph ("As a result...") is a bit strange, since it's not as a result of anything we've done. Just say "Date values expressed in this way are also compatible with...". Graham [1]http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg13116.html From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 25 12:28:13 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA20510 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:28:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PHLIug028853; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:21:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2PHLIv9028852; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:21:18 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PHLHQR028846 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:21:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0cdfl9t.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.213.61] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DEsUk-0004zq-Kd; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:21:14 +0000 Message-ID: <424448A7.1040002@franklinmint.fm> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:21:43 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham CC: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: Alternative to the date regex References: <01053a0b6b4c16c6633e819320803810@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <01053a0b6b4c16c6633e819320803810@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sounds like a plan to me. +1. Robert Sayre Graham wrote: > > Currently we have this > > "A Date construct is an element whose content MUST conform to the > date-time BNF rule in [RFC3339]. I.e., the content of this element > matches this regular expression: > > [0-9]{8}T[0-9]{2}:[0-9]{2}:[0-9]{2}(\.[0-9]+) > ?(Z|[\+\-][0-9]{2}:[0-9]{2}) > > As a result, the date values conform to the following specifications..." > > The problem with the regex is that it's entirely redundant. If we look > at Norm's message where the regex was suggested [1], he intends it as a > profile of xsd:dateTime, which allows a variety of date formats. However > we're using it as a profile of RFC3339, which already requires that > date-times match the regex 100%. Having the regex there as well is just > confusing - until preparing this email I was under the impression it > made some additional restrictions on RFC3339. > > The nearest thing I see to an additional restriction is that there must > be a capital T between the date and time, which the date-time BNF rule > we mention also requires, but the prose later mentions you might be > allowed to use something different. > > Proposal: > Replace the first para and regex with: > > A Date construct is an element whose content MUST conform to the > date-time BNF rule in [RFC3339]. Note this requires an uppercase > letter T > between the date and time sections. > > Secondly, *all* RFC3339 date-times are compatible with the 4 specs > mentioned, so the wording of the second paragraph ("As a result...") is > a bit strange, since it's not as a result of anything we've done. Just > say "Date values expressed in this way are also compatible with...". > > Graham > > [1]http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg13116.html > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 25 12:29:38 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA20595 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:29:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PHONoP029049; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:24:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2PHONpq029048; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:24:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mcom.com (c3po.aoltw.net [64.236.137.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PHOMdt029032 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:24:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jpanzer@aol.net) Received: from judge.mcom.com (judge.nscp.aoltw.net [10.169.8.47]) by mcom.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id j2PHOHQ09325 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:24:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.169.186.45] ([10.169.186.45]) by judge.mcom.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id IDX4CH01.E09; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:24:17 -0800 Message-ID: <42444943.2070402@aol.net> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:24:19 -0800 From: jpanzer@aol.net (John Panzer) User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0RC1 (Windows/20041201) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bob@wyman.us CC: "'Henry Story'" , "'Atom Syntax'" Subject: Re: copyright, Creative Commons, and DRM in Atom/RSS References: <200503251638.CVF73912@ms8.netsolmail.com> In-Reply-To: <200503251638.CVF73912@ms8.netsolmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------040704080102050609020203" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040704080102050609020203 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Wyman wrote: >Henry Story wrote: > > >>Yahoo! search launching a creative commons search engine ... it would be >>very helpful if there were a machine readable way to set copyright >>policy on entries. >> >> >.. > So, in summary, let's not go down the DRM path. It is a snake pit >from which no good will come. Also, please see my post about Creative >Commons at: >http://bobwyman.pubsub.com/main/2005/03/lazyweb_query_a.html > > I agree that we should not slide down the DRM slippery slope. But as you note, CC isn't about DRM. On a side note, since Atom feeds may already contain a to an HTML page on a server owned by the copyright owner, it's already possible to follow the CC recommendations for embedding: http://creativecommons.org/technology/embedding However, if we want to facilitate things like searching and categorization, here is an example of an obvious-to-the-practitioner-skilled-in-the-art indicator of a CC license for Atom: which of course also extends to whatever other license schemes someone might come up with, as long as they have URIs. -John --------------040704080102050609020203 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Wyman wrote: 
Henry Story wrote:
  
Yahoo! search launching a creative commons search engine ... it would be
very helpful if there were a machine readable way to set copyright
policy on entries.
    
..
    So, in summary, let's not go down the DRM path. It is a snake pit
from which no good will come. Also, please see my post about Creative
Commons at:
http://bobwyman.pubsub.com/main/2005/03/lazyweb_query_a.html
I agree that we should not slide down the DRM slippery slope.  But as you note, CC isn't about DRM. 

On a side note, since Atom feeds may already contain a <link rel="alternate" ..."> to an HTML page on a server owned by the copyright owner, it's already possible to follow the CC recommendations for embedding: http://creativecommons.org/technology/embedding

However, if we want to facilitate things like searching and categorization, here is an example of an obvious-to-the-practitioner-skilled-in-the-art indicator of a CC license for Atom:

<link rel="license" href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/" />

which of course also extends to whatever other license schemes someone might come up with, as long as they have URIs.

-John

--------------040704080102050609020203-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 25 12:59:51 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA24297 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:59:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PHlctk030626; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:47:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2PHlcV3030625; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:47:38 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PHlbTT030607 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:47:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j2PHlKTA000477 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:47:20 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" From: Graham Subject: Identifiers again Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:47:18 +0000 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1. Why are these two statements in the same paragraph? The content of an atom:id element MUST be created in a way that assures uniqueness; it is suggested that the atom:id element be stored along with the associated resource. Storage assures persistence but does nothing to improve uniqueness. I'd recommend that the second statement be moved to the end of the paragraph before, and the remaining statement be found a home elsewhere. 2. This would leave room to discuss uniqueness in more depth, which currently isn't discussed. Is it acceptable to have a feed and entry use the same identifier? Does it imply some relationship? Is it acceptable to use a domain name I don't control (this would obj=viously threaten uniqueness), etc etc. Probably too late to get consensus on changes here, though, so I won't suggest any. 3. Regarding dereferencing: Though the IRI might use a dereferencable scheme, Atom Processors MUST NOT assume it can be dereferenced. This is nice, but I'd prefer it to also say something like "Atom Processors MUST NOT make any assumptions about the relationship between the feed or entry and the dereferenced object". This is currently implied by the absence of any discussion, so I don't think it's a functional change. Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 25 12:59:51 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA24298 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:59:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PHrdBu030870; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:53:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2PHrdPe030869; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:53:39 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PHrcxY030861 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:53:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j2PHquK8001522; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:52:56 GMT In-Reply-To: <20e96bdf892de264eab8f36eb962e015@sun.com> References: <20e96bdf892de264eab8f36eb962e015@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" From: Graham Subject: Re: Date accuracy Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:52:54 +0000 To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 25 Mar 2005, at 5:01 pm, Tim Bray wrote: > Could we make this a SHOULD? Yes, I agree SHOULD is the appropriate RFC term. Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 25 13:13:25 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA25889 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:13:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PI7DLT031739; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:07:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2PI7DUY031738; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:07:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.203]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PI7ABI031730 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:07:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id g11so1215768rne for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:07:10 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=ie8AeR3R+sLRW1qEXOsuAYWcffDW7M7csJzFj8ODVPg8/WBMVHqktlbFRid3AdGFMegcBmaODAMErwIuLc8gV5y9GocFFc96W8foOlsQSB6onCi/T3Q3JW0TnPOlES633PF6F38wuo/IhpO/EG/9P4oWLutAYhubjT1xftzHEd8= Received: by 10.38.165.79 with SMTP id n79mr2692190rne; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:07:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.151.18 with HTTP; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:07:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3f1451f50503251007788e9c01@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:07:08 -0500 From: Joe Gregorio Reply-To: Joe Gregorio To: Graham Subject: Re: Date accuracy Cc: "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:47:29 +0000, Graham wrote: > > There are several RSS feeds out there that have dates where the day is > accurate but the time is always the same (usually 10am for some > reason), regardless of the time of publication, which completely messes > up sorting the day's entries. Currently the Atom spec implies that this > is bad practice by requiring a time, but could we make it explicit? > > Proposal: Add to Date Construct section: > "Date values must have a granularity of one second" The current format of the date has a granularity of one second. Are you requesting that dates SHOULD be *accurate* to the second by whatever process is generating the Atom document? If that is correct, how does adding this restriction increase interop? -joe -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 25 13:14:38 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA26045 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:14:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PI7uBF031796; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:07:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2PI7uVq031795; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:07:56 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.dnainternet.net (smtp2.dnainternet.net [62.240.72.111]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PI7tfW031787 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:07:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hsivonen@iki.fi) Received: from 217-140-228-250.adsl-net.finnetcom.net ([217.140.228.250]:52273 "EHLO [217.140.228.250]" TLS-CIPHER: ) by smtp2.dnainternet.net with ESMTP id S1228798AbVCYSHx convert rfc822-to-8bit (ORCPT ); Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:07:53 +0200 In-Reply-To: <31a59bd34d09a197c1a871330f96aafb@bblfish.net> References: <31a59bd34d09a197c1a871330f96aafb@bblfish.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Cc: Atom Syntax From: Henri Sivonen Subject: Re: copyright Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:07:31 +0200 To: Henry Story X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Mar 25, 2005, at 14:41, Henry Story wrote: > Clearly it would be very helpful if there were a machine readable way > to set copyright > policy on entries. Any thoughts on that? Legalese is complicated enough that it cannot be fully expressed in machine readable form unless the machine is AI-complete. CC has created an RDF vocabulary for describing their license elements. However, when you start describing eg. the GFDL with CC's vocabulary, you are on shaky ground, because the license details may not be exactly equivalent to the CC terms. It seems to me that it is more straight-forward to identify a known license than to try to describe a license. Tantek Çelik has publicized and mozilla.org (among others) has adopted a 'license' rel value for HTML . This approach avoids the issue of machine-readable licenses and software interpreting legalese, because a human programmer needs to supply the software with known license URIs. Obviously, this doesn't work nicely with obscure licenses but assumes that the license URIs are well-known. The solution is also less crufty than hiding RDF in discardable comments. (Hiding copyright metadata in discardable comments is a bad idea, because in some jurisdictions there may soon be legislation that makes it illegal to discard copyright metadata. The XML spec says software may discard comments.) However, you cannot make everyone who provides useful feeds to describe their policy, so someone running a feed aggregation service still needs all lawyer who can convincingly argue against the permission culture. -- Henri Sivonen hsivonen@iki.fi http://hsivonen.iki.fi/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 25 13:15:47 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA26159 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:15:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PI9RTj031857; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:09:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2PI9RiY031856; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:09:27 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr3.netsolmail.com (omr3.netsolmail.com [216.168.230.164]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PI9QRF031850 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:09:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from ms8.netsolmail.com (IDENT:mirapoint@[216.168.230.180]) by omr3.netsolmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2PI9Kmm013873; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:09:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) by ms8.netsolmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id CVF96844 (AUTH bob@wyman.us); Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:09:19 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200503251809.CVF96844@ms8.netsolmail.com> Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'John Panzer'" , Cc: "'Henry Story'" , "'Atom Syntax'" Subject: RE: copyright, Creative Commons, and DRM in Atom/RSS Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:09:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0027_01C5313B.D9E14DA0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <42444943.2070402@aol.net> Thread-Index: AcUxX4Q6vvpkwXJBR1iE1aTxb2xOAAAA3ODg Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C5313B.D9E14DA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Panzer wrote: > an example of an obvious-to-the-practitioner-skilled-in-the-art indicator of a CC license for Atom: > "http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/" /> > which of course also extends to whatever other license schemes someone might come up with, as > long as they have URIs. As John indicates, his encoding method is "obvious". However, what is apparently *not* obvious to many people is that you can't "enforce" a Creative Commons license if enforcement involves restricting access to or use of data. Because this point is a bit subtle, we're likely to have all sorts of people thinking that providing support for Creative Commons does, in fact, give them the ability to restrict the use of their data. bob wyman ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C5313B.D9E14DA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

John Panzer = wrote:

> an example of an obvious-to-the-practitioner-skilled-in-the-art indicator of a CC license = for Atom:
> = <link rel=3D"license" href=3D"http://creativ= ecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/" />
> which = of course also extends to whatever other license schemes someone might come up = with, as

>  long as = they have URIs.
        &nbs= p;   As John indicates, his encoding method is “obvious”… = However, what is apparently *not* = obvious to many people is that you can’t “enforce” a Creative = Commons license if enforcement involves restricting access to or use of data. = Because this point is a bit subtle, we’re likely to have all sorts of = people thinking that providing support for Creative Commons does, in fact, give = them the ability to restrict the use of their = data…

 

=

      = ;      bob wyman

 

=

 

------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C5313B.D9E14DA0-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 25 13:18:01 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA26633 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:18:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PIAx7f031969; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:10:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2PIAxUj031968; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:10:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.147.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PIAwVY031956 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:10:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 978A6110 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:10:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (spike.verity.com [10.69.100.102]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j2PIAhLh009286 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:10:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:10:45 -0800 From: Walter Underwood To: "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" Subject: Re: Alternative to the date regex Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01053a0b6b4c16c6633e819320803810@mac.com> References: <01053a0b6b4c16c6633e819320803810@mac.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0a7 (Mac OS X) X-Face: 7Vqnb4fOVKsO)3JuUXKxR\M]:e"u'eG`Zue*.((7i7%P%rvZgS[j~95@C-s3i (s!e;OX`'Pngn5lq*Td}#,"5!^jm(65.";[GPtD^c(/1TtMe&wYO;_}\!}fRkxs%q#Jk 5E^BlXwR+8}qOwy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +1 on dropping the regex. It isn't from any of the other specs, it isn't specifically called out as explanatory and non-normative, and it is too long to be clear. Some examples would be nice, along with some examples of things which do not conform. wunder --On March 25, 2005 5:11:09 PM +0000 Graham wrote: > > Currently we have this > > "A Date construct is an element whose content MUST conform to the > date-time BNF rule in [RFC3339]. I.e., the content of this element > matches this regular expression: > > [0-9]{8}T[0-9]{2}:[0-9]{2}:[0-9]{2}(\.[0-9]+) > ?(Z|[\+\-][0-9]{2}:[0-9]{2}) > > As a result, the date values conform to the following specifications..." > > The problem with the regex is that it's entirely redundant. If we look at Norm's message where the regex was suggested [1], he intends it as a profile of xsd:dateTime, which allows a variety of date formats. However we're using it as a profile of RFC3339, which already requires that date-times match the regex 100%. Having the regex there as well is just confusing - until preparing this email I was under the impression it made some additional restrictions on RFC3339. > > The nearest thing I see to an additional restriction is that there must be a capital T between the date and time, which the date-time BNF rule we mention also requires, but the prose later mentions you might be allowed to use something different. > > Proposal: > Replace the first para and regex with: > > A Date construct is an element whose content MUST conform to the > date-time BNF rule in [RFC3339]. Note this requires an uppercase letter T > between the date and time sections. > > Secondly, *all* RFC3339 date-times are compatible with the 4 specs mentioned, so the wording of the second paragraph ("As a result...") is a bit strange, since it's not as a result of anything we've done. Just say "Date values expressed in this way are also compatible with...". > > Graham > > [1]http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg13116.html > > -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect, Verity From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 25 13:31:07 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA27691 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:31:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PIP7s8032965; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:25:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2PIP7FB032964; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:25:07 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PIP6Is032958 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:25:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0cdfl9t.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.213.61] helo=[192.168.0.7]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DEtUV-0005jD-Ex; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 18:25:03 +0000 Message-ID: <4244579C.9080707@franklinmint.fm> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:25:32 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henry Story CC: Atom Syntax Subject: focus (was:Re: copyright) References: <31a59bd34d09a197c1a871330f96aafb@bblfish.net> In-Reply-To: <31a59bd34d09a197c1a871330f96aafb@bblfish.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henry Story wrote: > > Clearly it would be very helpful if there were a machine readable way to > set copyright > policy on entries. Any thoughts on that? This is not an appropriate time to discuss design changes. Please limit list traffic to specific editorial suggestions and bug reports. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 25 13:41:14 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA28685 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:41:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PIXdvv033449; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:33:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2PIXdjm033448; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:33:39 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.dnainternet.net (smtp2.dnainternet.net [62.240.72.111]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PIXcIg033442 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:33:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hsivonen@iki.fi) Received: from 217-140-228-250.adsl-net.finnetcom.net ([217.140.228.250]:52354 "EHLO [217.140.228.250]" TLS-CIPHER: ) by smtp2.dnainternet.net with ESMTP id S1228803AbVCYSdh (ORCPT ); Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:33:37 +0200 In-Reply-To: <200503251638.CVF73912@ms8.netsolmail.com> References: <200503251638.CVF73912@ms8.netsolmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <992c666d961ba9b4a47e7cd7e97072c3@iki.fi> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "'Henry Story'" , "'Atom Syntax'" From: Henri Sivonen Subject: Re: copyright, Creative Commons, and DRM in Atom/RSS Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:33:30 +0200 To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mar 25, 2005, at 18:38, Bob Wyman wrote: > http://bobwyman.pubsub.com/main/2005/03/lazyweb_query_a.html > > The basic message is that we should not be writing anything that > implies that Creative Commons should be used for Digital Rights > Management. +1 BTW, I think the anti-DRM clause of CC is really intended as an anti-anti-circumvention clause and should be rephrased as such. See http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2005/03/msg00423.html -- Henri Sivonen hsivonen@iki.fi http://hsivonen.iki.fi/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 25 13:57:59 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA00130 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:57:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PIl3md034131; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:47:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2PIl3FB034130; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:47:03 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.147.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PIl3Nd034101 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:47:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46E9F119 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:46:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (spike.verity.com [10.69.100.102]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j2PIkvLf009437 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:46:57 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:46:59 -0800 From: Walter Underwood To: "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" Subject: Re: Date accuracy Message-ID: <9F7D318A09307E4CF66C49E2@Wunders-Computer.local> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0a7 (Mac OS X) X-Face: 7Vqnb4fOVKsO)3JuUXKxR\M]:e"u'eG`Zue*.((7i7%P%rvZgS[j~95@C-s3i (s!e;OX`'Pngn5lq*Td}#,"5!^jm(65.";[GPtD^c(/1TtMe&wYO;_}\!}fRkxs%q#Jk 5E^BlXwR+8}qOwy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On March 25, 2005 1:47:29 PM +0000 Graham wrote: > > There are several RSS feeds out there that have dates where the day is accurate > but the time is always the same (usually 10am for some reason), regardless of > the time of publication, ... > Proposal: Add to Date Construct section: > "Date values must have a granularity of one second" Precision and accuracy are very different things. Precise timestamps have a lot of numbers. Accurate timestamps are a correct measurement of a clock. Does this mean that they must have an accuracy of one second? That is, that the timestamp for the update or publish event must be correct within +/- 0.5s when compared to a trusted time standard? Atom already requires the timestamp to be precise to one second, but it is not practical to require (MUST) accuracy. We could do it, but we'd lock out the 99% of machines with bad clocks. Plus, some publications just don't have an accurate time -- archives digitized from paper, like old New Yorker issues or MIT AI lab tech notes. One approach to those is to choose a convention for the time portion, like noon UTC. That is most likely to be the same day in other time zones. We could mention that as a useful convention. The Atom spec should recommend that clocks be accurate. There is no point in having sortable timestamps without trustworthy clocks. This is already a SHOULD in the HTTP 1.1 spec, and you can grab that language from the caching Pace I put together. Or I can, if there is support for it. wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect, Verity From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 25 14:24:15 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA02373 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 14:24:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PJH69k035981; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:17:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2PJH6di035980; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:17:06 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PJH5SC035974 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:17:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PJH5X8008723 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:17:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IDX000LY9KHDL@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:17:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.17] ([216.113.204.232]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IDX000L49KG8A@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:17:05 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:17:16 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Date accuracy In-reply-to: <9F7D318A09307E4CF66C49E2@Wunders-Computer.local> To: Walter Underwood Cc: "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" Message-id: <9b40de984e98cc5d8ea5344d64e26277@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <9F7D318A09307E4CF66C49E2@Wunders-Computer.local> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mar 25, 2005, at 10:46 AM, Walter Underwood wrote: > Atom already requires the timestamp to be precise to one second, but > it is not > practical to require (MUST) accuracy. We could do it, but we'd lock > out the 99% > of machines with bad clocks. > > Plus, some publications just don't have an accurate time -- archives > digitized from > paper, like old New Yorker issues First, I don't think that we currently require any precision, we just specify the syntax, which happens to allow to-the-second precision. Graham's point is that the spec should acknowledge that there is value in accuracy, which is well-taken. I suggest language such as: The date SHOULD be as accurate as possible within the limitations of the software and environment. For example, it would be generally inappropriate for a publishing system to apply the same timestamp for several entries which were published during the course of a single day. On the other hand, this amounts to telling publishers "don't be egregiously stupid"... not obvious that you get an interoperability gain. Except for Graham says he's seeing people doing just this. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 25 15:14:50 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA07179 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:14:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PK3l71039001; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:03:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2PK3l8B039000; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:03:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PK3j5J038994 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:03:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ndw@nwalsh.com) Received: from phys-bur-2 ([129.148.9.73]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PK3jX8012721 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:03:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from conversion-daemon.bur-mail1.east.sun.com by bur-mail1.east.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0IDX00101BPSF5@bur-mail1.east.sun.com> (original mail from ndw@nwalsh.com) for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:03:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (vpn-129-150-36-67.Central.Sun.COM [129.150.36.67]) by bur-mail1.east.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0IDX00JBVBQ8DP@bur-mail1.east.sun.com> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:03:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from ndw by localhost with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DEv22-0002Vc-Bc for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:03:46 -0500 X-URL: http://nwalsh.com/ Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:03:44 -0500 From: Norman Walsh Subject: Re: Confused about extensibility In-reply-to: <1782.82.127.77.43.1111479050.squirrel@ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Message-id: <87vf7f7asf.fsf@nwalsh.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) Emacs/21.4 (gnu/linux) References: <87u0n44t93.fsf@nwalsh.com> <423F4F63.3070809@cegetel.net> <87k6o0woyd.fsf@nwalsh.com> <1782.82.127.77.43.1111479050.squirrel@ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable / "Thomas Broyer" was heard to say: |> | though I wonder why interlaced content models are used instead of | |> "ordered" content models... that would also allow DTD or XML Schema | |> (or any other schema requiring deterministic content models) to be | |> used to validate Atom documents... |> |> Because the spec says they aren't ordered. | | Well, by "ordered", I actually meant "non-interleaved", e.g. having a | deterministic content model... I don't know of any other way to model the constraints (and only the constraints) imposed by the spec. If you have an alternate suggestion, please send it along. Be seeing you, norm =2D-=20 Norman Walsh | Resist the urge to hurry; it will only http://nwalsh.com/ | slow you down--Bruce Eckel --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBCRG6iOyltUcwYWjsRAvE/AJ43OB4NF+6SJfNjlNEGsArJYAEbFgCgofAu H9SAKhic5BuLrPN9QGzyS3Q= =7nGD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 25 15:41:29 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA09857 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:41:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PKWsOc040709; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:32:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2PKWsWc040708; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:32:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PKWsh3040702 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:32:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 86199 invoked by uid 17064); 25 Mar 2005 20:32:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.6]) ([83.112.229.151]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 25 Mar 2005 20:32:53 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <21fa6f3a1cb9731b882d937b6576be7a@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: link confusion? Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 21:32:49 +0100 To: Atom Syntax X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 25 Mar 2005, at 17:36, Henry Story wrote: > given the following example xml, > > > ... > type="text/html" > hreflang="en" > length="450" > title="The html entry" > rel="related/> > > [snip] > So a better interpretation of the initial xml would be the following > > _e1--is-a-> > |--link-> _link > |--to---->_r--is-a-> > | |--href--> > | |--type--> "text/html" > | |--lang--> "en" > | |-length-> 450 > |-title--> "The html entry" > |--rel---> "related" Another interpretation of the original xml which would take into account the fact that a link MUST have an href element would be: _e1--is-a-> |--link-> _link |--href--> | |--representation-->_r | |--type--> "text/html" | |--lang--> "en" | |-length-> 450 |-title--> "The html entry" |--rel---> "related" which is saying that a link relates an entry and a resource, and that sometimes it is appropriate to give extra information about representations of that resource. And so more it would perhaps be clearer for the xml to be stated like this ... I am not saying that that is the answer, just that the it may help to make the distinction clearer somehow between properties of the link and properties on the object of the link. Henry From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 25 16:07:52 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA13256 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 16:07:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PKq28C041932; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:52:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2PKq2TF041931; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:52:02 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PKq1hm041925 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:52:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 95700 invoked by uid 17064); 25 Mar 2005 20:52:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.6]) ([83.112.229.151]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 25 Mar 2005 20:52:01 -0000 In-Reply-To: <42444943.2070402@aol.net> References: <200503251638.CVF73912@ms8.netsolmail.com> <42444943.2070402@aol.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <1809f9c5a898bc8c9bf1b10c8255de4a@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: John Panzer From: Henry Story Subject: Re: copyright, Creative Commons, and DRM in Atom/RSS Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 21:51:56 +0100 To: "'Atom Syntax'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks everyone for all the pointers and thoughts on the subject. I can see now that the issue is not so easy. I suppose I find the link method described by John quite attractive concerning the CC license. Henry Story On 25 Mar 2005, at 18:24, John Panzer wrote: > > On a side note, since Atom feeds may already contain a rel="alternate" ..."> to an HTML page on a server owned by the > copyright owner, it's already possible to follow the CC > recommendations for embedding: > http://creativecommons.org/technology/embedding > > However, if we want to facilitate things like searching and > categorization, here is an example of an > obvious-to-the-practitioner-skilled-in-the-art indicator of a CC > license for Atom: > > href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/" /> > > which of course also extends to whatever other license schemes > someone might come up with, as long as they have URIs. > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 25 18:49:22 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA01306 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 18:49:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PNf4T9051830; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:41:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2PNf4md051829; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:41:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2PNf3Gf051810 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:41:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0cdfl9t.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.213.61] helo=[192.168.0.3]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DEyQG-0001ia-10; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 23:41:00 +0000 Message-ID: <4244A18C.8050608@franklinmint.fm> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 18:41:00 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham CC: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: Identifiers again References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > > 1. Why are these two statements in the same paragraph? > > The content of an atom:id element MUST be created in a way that > assures uniqueness; it is suggested that the atom:id element be > stored along with the associated resource. > > Storage assures persistence but does nothing to improve uniqueness. I'd > recommend that the second statement be moved to the end of the paragraph > before, and the remaining statement be found a home elsewhere. That sentence is an oblique way of saying "don't use your auto-incrementing primary key or your title-based permalink to identify entries". Suggestions welcome. > > 2. This would leave room to discuss uniqueness in more depth, which > currently isn't discussed. Is it acceptable to have a feed and entry use > the same identifier? Does it imply some relationship? Is it acceptable > to use a domain name I don't control (this would obj=viously threaten > uniqueness), etc etc. Probably too late to get consensus on changes > here, though, so I won't suggest any. I agree that it's too late. Those are hard questions. > > 3. Regarding dereferencing: > > Though the IRI might use a dereferencable scheme, Atom Processors > MUST NOT assume it > can be dereferenced. > > This is nice, but I'd prefer it to also say something like "Atom > Processors MUST NOT make any assumptions about the relationship between > the feed or entry and the dereferenced object". This is currently > implied by the absence of any discussion, so I don't think it's a > functional change. No matter how much we might wish it to be so, we can't outlaw that sort of thing. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 28 08:36:19 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA14906 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 08:36:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2SDRhaY015257; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 05:27:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2SDRhch015256; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 05:27:43 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (smtpout16.mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.16]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2SDRdVT015199 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 05:27:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050328132729.XLIY928.mta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com> for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:27:29 +0100 Received: from cpc3-stok1-5-0-cust172.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([82.11.128.172]) by aamta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050328132729.GAZC1844.aamta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@cpc3-stok1-5-0-cust172.bagu.cable.ntl.com> for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:27:29 +0100 Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:27:30 +0100 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.9.10 Return) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1755565556.20050328142730@djpowell.net> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Editorial: language-sensitive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A very minor problem: I tried to do a search through the document to find which elements were language-sensitive, and I didn't find all of them because sometimes "language-sensitive" is written with a hyphen, and sometimes it isn't. -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 28 19:25:03 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA29779 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 19:25:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2T0CUjU059784; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:12:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2T0CUn7059783; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:12:30 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2T0CUZX059777 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:12:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 20884 invoked by uid 17064); 29 Mar 2005 00:12:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.6]) ([83.112.100.75]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 29 Mar 2005 00:12:30 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: "'Atom Syntax'" From: Henry Story Subject: link questions Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 02:12:25 +0200 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The link element contains many pieces. Here are some questions I had: - the meaning of the "alternate" type could perhaps be explained a little better. As I understand this is there to fulfill one of the role of what used to be the permalink. It is meant to point to the html representation of the entry/feed. Currently "alternate" is explained as The value "alternate" signifies that the IRI in the value of the href attribute identifies an alternate version of the resource described by the containing element. That does really not say very much. I think when one thinks about it carefully then it makes sense, but perhaps an example would help clarify that. - The point of the "title" in the link is not quite clear. Why would one put a title on a link? What will the client do with this information? When should one put it?... - I must have missed the arguments about "self". But the documentation does not really help me understand what I would want to use that link for. (Perhaps this is to point to a translated version of the resource for example?) The above are all just small clarification issues. Henry Story From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 28 19:29:11 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA29990 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 19:29:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2T0HPKE060092; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:17:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2T0HPTf060091; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:17:25 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2T0HO2I060080 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:17:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 22967 invoked by uid 17064); 29 Mar 2005 00:17:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.6]) ([83.112.100.75]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 29 Mar 2005 00:17:24 -0000 In-Reply-To: <42416CE1.3010609@labs.mot.com> References: <87br9h3qhg.fsf@nwalsh.com> <423B245B.9090001@franklinmint.fm> <87acp01zis.fsf@nwalsh.com> <352532918.20050319115630@djpowell.net> <423C3B90.6070509@gmx.de> <42416CE1.3010609@labs.mot.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <2b46a54d92edaea4b3b7360e549cc974@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Brett Lindsley From: Henry Story Subject: Re: Why is alternate link a MUST? Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 02:17:21 +0200 To: "'Atom Syntax'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +1 I think it makes a lot less sense for a feed than it does for an entry. Henry On 23 Mar 2005, at 14:19, Brett Lindsley wrote: > I know this discussion has occured before, but I would like to revisit > the question of why an atom:feed MUST contain at least one atom:link > element with a relation of "alternate" (-06 4.1.1). > > The defintition of the alternate representation is it "identifes an > alternate > version of the resource" (Sec 4.2.9.2). However, is it realistic to > believe > that *every* feed has an alternate version? > > This becomes even more confusing if one considers the possibility of > branching out using service.feed to filtered, searched or aggregated > views. One would expect the link to have an alternate representation of > the filtered, searched or aggregated feed as well. > > I have seen some examples where a home page was used for all of the > alternate representations. Is a home page really an alternate > representation? > Putting a home page in feeds that are filtered or aggregated versions > is also misleading because the home page would most likely not be an > alternate representation of the filtered/aggregated feed. > > I can also think of situations where a server hosts feeds that do not > have > an alternate representation nor have a home page. In this case, why > have a required link that serves no useful purpose. > > Why isn't this requirement a "may" instead of a "must"? I can see > having > a link with rel=alternate if indeed a alternate version does exist. It > does not > make sense to put in some something misleading if an alternate does not > exist. > > Brett Lindsley, Motorola Labs > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 28 20:45:45 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA05802 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 20:45:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2T1YwdQ063956; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:34:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2T1YwkH063955; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:34:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mcom.com (r2d2.aoltw.net [64.236.137.26]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2T1YvhZ063947 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:34:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from "\"JPanzer\""@aol.net) Received: from h-10-169-155-195.nscp.aoltw.net (h-10-169-155-195.nscp.aoltw.net [10.169.155.195]) by mcom.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id j2T1Yo102444 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:34:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:34:50 -0800 From: "John Panzer" <"JPanzer"@aol.net> Subject: Re: link questions cc: "'Atom Syntax'" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4248B0BA.3090908@aol.net> References: X-Mailer: AOL Communicator (20030919.3 Win) Organization: AOL MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Henry Story wrote on 3/28/2005, 4:12 PM: > > - I must have missed the arguments about "self". But the documentation > does not really > help me understand what I would want to use that link for. (Perhaps > this is to point to > a translated version of the resource for example?) Is this the use case? I've clicked on an Atom feed link and the data (but not the originating URI) have been passed to a handler of MIME type application/atom+xml. I like what I see and want to subscribe to the feed... but there's no way to figure out what URI to subscribe to without the "self" link inside the data. -- John Panzer Sr. Technical Manager, AOL http://journals.aol.com/panzerjohn/abstractioneer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Mar 29 02:28:49 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA25153 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 02:28:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2T7J7q3015592; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 23:19:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2T7J7pS015591; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 23:19:07 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2T7J7fX015582 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 23:19:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 94592 invoked by uid 17064); 29 Mar 2005 07:19:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.6]) ([83.112.128.21]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 29 Mar 2005 07:19:06 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: <4248B0BA.3090908@aol.net> References: <4248B0BA.3090908@aol.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <370b83fa23eb38a9322ada9ada81fe3b@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: link questions Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 09:19:04 +0200 To: "John Panzer" <"JPanzer"@aol.net>, "'Atom Syntax'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, that helps a lot. Perhaps what is missing are use cases. Henry On 29 Mar 2005, at 03:34, John Panzer wrote: > Henry Story wrote on 3/28/2005, 4:12 PM: > >> >> - I must have missed the arguments about "self". But the documentation >> does not really >> help me understand what I would want to use that link for. (Perhaps >> this is to point to >> a translated version of the resource for example?) > > Is this the use case? I've clicked on an Atom feed link and the data > (but not the originating URI) have been passed to a handler of MIME > type > application/atom+xml. I like what I see and want to subscribe to the > feed... but there's no way to figure out what URI to subscribe to > without the "self" link inside the data. > > -- > John Panzer > Sr. Technical Manager, AOL > http://journals.aol.com/panzerjohn/abstractioneer > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Mar 29 06:42:48 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA17594 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 06:42:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2TBU26C006944; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 03:30:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2TBU2Bi006942; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 03:30:02 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from motgate8.mot.com (motgate8.mot.com [129.188.136.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2TBU1Cb006932 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 03:30:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett.lindsley@labs.mot.com) Received: from il06exr03.mot.com (il06exr03.mot.com [129.188.137.133]) by motgate8.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate8) with ESMTP id j2TBWH24004618; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 04:32:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from labs.mot.com (udomsvc2.labs.mot.com [173.23.250.2]) by il06exr03.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j2TBVY7N005993; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 05:31:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from udomsvc5.labs.mot.com (udomsvc5.labs.mot.com [173.23.250.5]) by labs.mot.com (MotLabs Smoke & Mirrors) with ESMTP id j2TBTxtv017244; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 05:29:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from labs.mot.com by ims1.labs.mot.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 (built Feb 21 2002)) with ESMTP id <0IE400DV12LW19@ims1.labs.mot.com>; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 05:29:57 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 05:29:54 -0600 From: Brett Lindsley Subject: Re: link confusion? To: Henry Story Cc: Brett Lindsley , atom-syntax@imc.org Message-id: <42493C32.1030700@labs.mot.com> Organization: Mot Labs MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en,pdf User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 References: <469cbcc56c38196fed145c7af6d70d3a@bblfish.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Henry, The solution I eventually implemented was to include an "id" attribute in the link. Clients can infer that links with the same id are actually different views of the same resource. I know this is cheezy but I am on a tight deadline to prototype. BTW, I'm not sure why this did not make the syntax list, I was working from home and sometimes our system flakes. Brett Lindsley, Motorola Labs Henry Story wrote: > Thanks for the note. > > These are things that it would be very interesting to clarify with a > good OWL > Ontology for Atom. > > I noticed that you post never made it to the Atom-syntax mailing list, > btw. > > Henry Story > > On 27 Mar 2005, at 04:13, Brett Lindsley wrote: > >> Henry, I like your thoughts on this. I am working with the Atom link >> model on a project and found it constraining so I made similar >> modifications. >> The two problems I ran into are the following: >> >> 1. I wanted to specify different representations of the same resource >> using a single link. In particular, I wanted a hi-res and low-res >> representation >> and allow the end client determine which one it wanted based on >> size (bandwidth is not aways free). As you indicated, things like >> the title are the same (description of the link) whereas the size >> would have been different (description of the resource). >> >> 2. An interesting modification I made was under the assumption that >> network connections may be expensive compared to the content >> enclosure size. In this case, I wanted to embed the content into the >> link itself. Allowing an embedded version of the resource and a linked >> version of the resource allows the end client to have better control >> over >> the version it wants to use. For the rules to encode an embedded >> object in a link, I used the following: >> - If the enclosure is linked, it contains an href attribute; if the >> enclosure is embedded, there is *no* href attribute. >> - If the MIME type begins with "text", the embedded object is >> escape encoded; otherwise, the embedded object is base64 >> encoded. >> Of course, the link may also contain various (larger) forms of the >> resource by using the href along with the embedded object. >> >> Brett Lindsley, Motorola Labs >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Henry Story >> Date: Friday, March 25, 2005 2:32 pm >> Subject: Re: link confusion? >> >>> >>> >>> On 25 Mar 2005, at 17:36, Henry Story wrote: >>> >>>> given the following example xml, >>>> >>>> >>>> ... >>>> >>> type="text/html" >>>> hreflang="en" >>>> length="450" >>>> title="The html entry" >>>> rel="related/> >>>> >>>> [snip] >>>> So a better interpretation of the initial xml would be the following >>>> >>>> _e1--is-a-> >>>> |--link-> _link >>>> |--to---->_r--is-a-> >>>> | |--href--> <" >>> >>> target="l">http://bblfish.net/blog/page5.html#42>> | >>> |--type--> "text/html" >>> >>>> | |--lang--> "en" >>>> | |-length-> 450 >>>> |-title--> "The html entry" >>>> |--rel---> "related" >>> >>> >>> Another interpretation of the original xml which would take into >>> account the fact that >>> a link MUST have an href element would be: >>> >>> _e1--is-a-> >>> |--link-> _link >>> |--href--><" >>> target="l">http://bblfish.net/blog/page5.html#42> | >>> |--representation-->_r >>> | |--type--> "text/html" >>> | |--lang--> "en" >>> | |-length-> 450 >>> |-title--> "The html entry" >>> |--rel---> "related" >>> >>> >>> which is saying that a link relates an entry and a resource, and >>> that >>> sometimes >>> it is appropriate to give extra information about representations >>> of >>> that resource. >>> >>> And so more it would perhaps be clearer for the xml to be stated like >>> this >>> >>> >>> ... >>> >> rel="related" >>> href="http://bblfish.net/blog/page5.html#42"> >>> >> type="text/html" >>> lang="en" >>> length="450"/> >>> >>> >>> >>> I am not saying that that is the answer, just that the it may help >>> to >>> make the >>> distinction clearer somehow between properties of the link and >>> properties on the >>> object of the link. >>> >>> Henry >>> >>> > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Mar 29 08:34:34 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA27266 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 08:34:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2TDMxXQ044177; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 05:22:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2TDMxf9044176; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 05:22:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2TDMwLS044165 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 05:22:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 24853 invoked by uid 17064); 29 Mar 2005 13:22:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.6]) ([83.112.133.115]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 29 Mar 2005 13:22:58 -0000 In-Reply-To: <21fa6f3a1cb9731b882d937b6576be7a@bblfish.net> References: <21fa6f3a1cb9731b882d937b6576be7a@bblfish.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: bloged , "'Atom Syntax'" From: Henry Story Subject: atom link analysis - was: link confusion? Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:22:54 +0200 To: atom-owl@googlegroups.com, "'SWIG'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was trying to interpret the atom:link element [1] If I try to look at the spec in a simple relational way (what is being related to what?) then, given the following example atom xml extract, ... @prefix owl: [ a :Entry; :link [ :href [ owl:sameAs ; arch:representation [ :type "text/html"; # note [3] :lang "en"; :length "450" ] ] :l_title "The html entry"; # see note [2] :rel :alternative ] ]. That seems quite good. Now the interesting thing is that from the above it would seem that one should be able to deduce the following: [ a :Entry; :alternative [ owl:sameAs ; arch:representation [ :type "text/html"; # note [3] :lang "en"; :length "450" ] ] ]. Ie. the link object is not really an object, but as its name suggests is really a relation. This would not be such a problem except for the fact that we have now lost the title information that was placed on the link object. So perhaps what we have is that the link object is an anonymous rdfs:SubPropertyOf the object of its :rel relation (in our example :alternative) which has a special title attribute. That would allow us to make the above deduction I think. So if variable relations were allowed (they may be in N3, I am not sure), one could write [ a :Entry; _:link [ owl:sameAs ; arch:representation [ :type "text/html"; # note [3] :lang "en"; :length "450" ] ] ]. _:link :rel :alternative; :l_title "The html entry". where :rel is itself a rdfs:SubPropertyOf rdfs:SubProperty. This may make the atom link relation clearer to some :-) Henry Story [1] http://www.atompub.org/2005/03/12/draft-ietf-atompub-format-06.html [2] the title attribute of the link is called l_title to avoid confusing it with the title element of the entry [3] I am surprised the web arch ontology does not have the vocabulary for :type, :lang and :length that atom has. On 25 Mar 2005, at 21:32, Henry Story wrote: > On 25 Mar 2005, at 17:36, Henry Story wrote: >> given the following example xml, >> >> >> ... >> > type="text/html" >> hreflang="en" >> length="450" >> title="The html entry" >> rel="related/> >> >> [snip] >> So a better interpretation of the initial xml would be the following >> >> _e1--is-a-> >> |--link-> _link >> |--to---->_r--is-a-> >> | |--href--> >> | |--type--> "text/html" >> | |--lang--> "en" >> | |-length-> 450 >> |-title--> "The html entry" >> |--rel---> "related" > > Another interpretation of the original xml which would take into > account the fact that > a link MUST have an href element would be: > > _e1--is-a-> > |--link-> _link > |--href--> > | |--representation-->_r > | |--type--> "text/html" > | |--lang--> "en" > | |-length-> 450 > |-title--> "The html entry" > |--rel---> "related" > > > which is saying that a link relates an entry and a resource, and that > sometimes > it is appropriate to give extra information about representations of > that resource. > > And so more it would perhaps be clearer for the xml to be stated like > this > > > ... > rel="related" > href="http://bblfish.net/blog/page5.html#42"> > type="text/html" > lang="en" > length="450"/> > > > > I am not saying that that is the answer, just that the it may help to > make the > distinction clearer somehow between properties of the link and > properties on the > object of the link. > > Henry > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Mar 29 14:41:33 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA16935 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:41:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2TJV3Fg076185; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:31:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2TJV30e076184; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:31:03 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2TJV1Ub076171; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:31:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2TJV1X8005473; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:31:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IE4004QAOVOBY@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM>; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:31:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.102.100] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IE400K0XOVNIM@mail.sun.net>; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:31:00 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:31:21 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Atompub progress To: Joe Gregorio , Robert Sayre , Mark Nottingham Cc: "Atom-Syntax Syntax'" , Atom Protocol Message-id: <0a3ff6970918fc98a2c1e4dde191dbb0@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Had a talk with Sam (back from vacation) & Paul this morning and here's where we got to: 1. We need to get format-07 in Scott Hollenbeck's hands ASAP for review so we can put it out for IETF review. Based on offline conversation with the editors, we think we can do that this week with no problem. 2. We have two obstacles in the way of moving the protocol work forward. First, the current protocol-03 draft is a little too ragged to be a productive basis for proposing changes against. Second, our selection of existing protocol-related Paces is really dusty and disordered, and Sam will be within his rights if he decides to just close some. We need to solve the draft problem first. We have Rob's private draft that addresses some of the problems, and I've seen a bunch of editorial-changes correspondence go to the editors. So, the next step is to get a protocol-04 done; sooner is better. The ball is in our editors' court on that. Then we'll do a last (hopefully) call for changes/enhancements and see if we can finish this part of the job. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Mar 29 19:18:44 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA13998 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:18:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2U09atr095817; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:09:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2U09adO095816; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:09:36 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.metronet.co.uk (mail.metronet.co.uk [213.162.97.75]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2U09Zbv095810 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:09:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (213-162-124-198.barryp456.adsl.metronet.co.uk [213.162.124.198]) by mail.metronet.co.uk (MetroNet Mail) with ESMTP id C0AD240DD9F; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 01:09:14 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <4244A18C.8050608@franklinmint.fm> References: <4244A18C.8050608@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <78a5df79e1efb9bbd3643234c0a55b46@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Atom-Syntax From: Graham Subject: Re: Identifiers again Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 01:07:43 +0100 To: Robert Sayre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 25 Mar 2005, at 11:41 pm, Robert Sayre wrote: >> The content of an atom:id element MUST be created in a way that >> assures uniqueness; it is suggested that the atom:id element be >> stored along with the associated resource. persistence = ids must be the same each time the entry is generated uniqueness = ids must be different from ids used for other entries Storage helps with the former. Why are we implying it will help with the latter? >> 3. Regarding dereferencing: >> Though the IRI might use a dereferencable scheme, Atom Processors >> MUST NOT assume it >> can be dereferenced. >> This is nice, but I'd prefer it to also say something like "Atom >> Processors MUST NOT make any assumptions about the relationship >> between the feed or entry and the dereferenced object". This is >> currently implied by the absence of any discussion, so I don't think >> it's a functional change. > > No matter how much we might wish it to be so, we can't outlaw that > sort of thing. In case you've forgotten, WE ARE THE LAW. What a funny thing to say. Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Mar 29 19:25:41 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA14719 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:25:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2U0H6kU096368; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:17:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2U0H6oZ096367; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:17:06 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2U0H5tZ096360 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:17:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0cdfl9t.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.213.61] helo=[192.168.0.8]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DGQtI-0005cR-Tq; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 00:17:01 +0000 Message-ID: <4249F002.4070600@franklinmint.fm> Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:17:06 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham CC: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: Identifiers again References: <4244A18C.8050608@franklinmint.fm> <78a5df79e1efb9bbd3643234c0a55b46@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <78a5df79e1efb9bbd3643234c0a55b46@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > > On 25 Mar 2005, at 11:41 pm, Robert Sayre wrote: > >>> The content of an atom:id element MUST be created in a way that >>> assures uniqueness; it is suggested that the atom:id element be >>> stored along with the associated resource. > > > persistence = ids must be the same each time the entry is generated > uniqueness = ids must be different from ids used for other entries > > Storage helps with the former. Why are we implying it will help with the > latter? Hmm. Darn right. It's good advice, but it's not in the right place. Thanks. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Mar 29 22:44:34 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA00258 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:44:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2U3bCFR010907; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:37:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2U3bCoi010906; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:37:12 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.201]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2U3b97G010896 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:37:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from randymorin@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id f1so15951rne for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:37:08 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=GVulgZrzjDgoj01U29gKaZb6TZw9mxchHtUcx37kUoznzFrjZLBPlU5jj0DdBEQhfIbXBMHrz9tVXOCyeyAV1UnG5hbxexYsAefuDUp311Pt3yLYS5WocGf3+1nnTqDw2LYAA0bqXzPxeVHKLFMhe7AZo6Q01ypeouqub4Cin6c= Received: by 10.38.13.39 with SMTP id 39mr75119rnm; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:37:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.76.24 with HTTP; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:37:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:37:06 -0500 From: Randy Charles Morin Reply-To: randy@kbcafe.com To: Atomlist Subject: application/rss+xml Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit k, let's start by admitting my true goal is to get application/rss+xml into the registered IANA media types [1]. I'm thinking this could be done by describing the mechanism extension to RSS in an IETF draft, along with the required media types registration mumbo and passing it thru the Atom WG. Is this as simple (famous last words) as rephrasing my USM specification [2] in IETF form and getting Robert, Joe, mnot, Normal, Graham, Henry, Bob, Danny, Sam and Tim on board? Thanks and please CC me on responses, Randy Charles Morin http://www.kbcafe.com P.S. Sorry that I've been away for awhile. Robert's protocol draft brought me back. [1] - http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/ [2] - http://www.kbcafe.com/rss/usm.html From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Mar 29 23:45:50 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA07775 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 23:45:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2U4cCaD014954; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 20:38:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2U4cCYg014953; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 20:38:12 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2U4cCsK014947 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 20:38:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2U4c6X8016908 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:38:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IE500IJHE7GZO@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:38:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.17] ([216.113.204.232]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IE50024IE7GZZ@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:38:04 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 20:38:25 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: application/rss+xml In-reply-to: To: randy@kbcafe.com Cc: Atomlist Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mar 29, 2005, at 7:37 PM, Randy Charles Morin wrote: > > k, let's start by admitting my true goal is to get application/rss+xml > into the registered IANA media types [1]. Uh, I think we can register it as a side-effect of getting the format draft through the process with an RFC number. Right, Paul? -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 30 00:01:30 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA08648 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 00:01:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2U4sp6v015915; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 20:54:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2U4spK1015914; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 20:54:51 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j2U4snta015904 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 20:54:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from derhoermi@gmx.net) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 30 Mar 2005 04:54:43 -0000 Received: from dsl-084-056-224-030.arcor-ip.net (EHLO localhost) [84.56.224.30] by mail.gmx.net (mp006) with SMTP; 30 Mar 2005 06:54:43 +0200 X-Authenticated: #723575 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann To: Tim Bray Cc: randy@kbcafe.com, Atomlist Subject: Re: application/rss+xml Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:55:00 +0200 Message-ID: <42533097.45775531@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit * Tim Bray wrote: >On Mar 29, 2005, at 7:37 PM, Randy Charles Morin wrote: >> k, let's start by admitting my true goal is to get application/rss+xml >> into the registered IANA media types [1]. > >Uh, I think we can register it as a side-effect of getting the format >draft through the process with an RFC number. Right, Paul? -Tim IESG approval of an Internet-Draft with a media type registration would register the type, yes. Whether we should try to register application/ rss+xml is a different question though. -- Björn Höhrmann · mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de Weinh. Str. 22 · Telefon: +49(0)621/4309674 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de 68309 Mannheim · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.websitedev.de/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 30 00:14:04 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA09913 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 00:14:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2U54vAu016691; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:04:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2U54uUl016690; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:04:56 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2U54uX3016684 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:04:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2U54tRr013150 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:04:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IE500E5VFG7T5@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:04:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.17] ([216.113.204.232]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IE500264FG6ZZ@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:04:55 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:05:14 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: application/rss+xml In-reply-to: <42533097.45775531@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> To: Bjoern Hoehrmann Cc: randy@kbcafe.com, Atomlist Message-id: <4b8aeaa8e8be9293a6d4bb6db793fe6b@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <42533097.45775531@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mar 29, 2005, at 8:55 PM, Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: > IESG approval of an Internet-Draft with a media type registration would > register the type, yes. Whether we should try to register application/ > rss+xml is a different question though. D'oh, Randy wanted rss+xml, not atom+xml. Missed the point. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 30 00:41:46 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA12338 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 00:41:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2U5YDhJ018835; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:34:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2U5YDW3018834; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:34:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.195]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2U5YBJJ018828 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:34:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from randymorin@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id f1so58303rne for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:34:11 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=flnbmA+bNKcNEdhCGJtD9AhSLOODnGms7NDdTnF8hmSmUodGAINdJ2BSZ9o4emmQ2dHc6jwLkq1RvRh8OkEAV5SpbBFzKbVs7XKJE5JeSQxHGPnRbpSh/9fKMmJVnj6X/TPNmPCApDW/8VYnnNB4yGeHxqQwW5qabmLNPqFZkT8= Received: by 10.38.68.47 with SMTP id q47mr147257rna; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:34:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.76.24 with HTTP; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:34:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 00:34:10 -0500 From: Randy Charles Morin Reply-To: randy@kbcafe.com To: Tim Bray Subject: Re: application/rss+xml Cc: Bjoern Hoehrmann , Atomlist In-Reply-To: <4b8aeaa8e8be9293a6d4bb6db793fe6b@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <42533097.45775531@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <4b8aeaa8e8be9293a6d4bb6db793fe6b@sun.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Do-over. Can this be done thru the Atom WG and how? Could I use USM, as an Atom extension to RSS as the vehicle? Thanks, Randy On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:05:14 -0800, Tim Bray wrote: > On Mar 29, 2005, at 8:55 PM, Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: > > > IESG approval of an Internet-Draft with a media type registration would > > register the type, yes. Whether we should try to register application/ > > rss+xml is a different question though. > > D'oh, Randy wanted rss+xml, not atom+xml. Missed the point. -Tim > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 30 01:02:22 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA13911 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 01:02:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2U5prSX020095; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:51:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2U5prZP020094; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:51:53 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2U5pqWB020087 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:51:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2U5pqX8022630 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:51:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IE500I69HMGZO@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:51:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.17] ([216.113.204.232]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IE5003G0HMES2@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:51:51 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:52:12 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: application/rss+xml In-reply-to: To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Bjoern Hoehrmann , randy@kbcafe.com, Atomlist Message-id: <0868ea013778ea06f87f5364f95ca4ea@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <42533097.45775531@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <4b8aeaa8e8be9293a6d4bb6db793fe6b@sun.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mar 29, 2005, at 9:47 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > I tried; the official response [1] was that the IESG wanted to see an > stable and available spec -- by their standards -- for RSS before > putting it in the standards tree. Just doing a registration doesn't > cut it. > > I worked on an RSS 2.0 I-D [2] for a while and then stopped when I got > nervous about change control and copyright issues. Given that RSS 2.0 > is now hosted at Harvard, it may be that the IESG will consider that a > stable enough ref; if not, I'm not nearly as nervous now that it's > under a CC license, and I think I could take a crack at the I-D > again... Should that perhaps be "application/rss2+xml"? There are lots of RSSes. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 30 01:02:42 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA13948 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 01:02:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2U5lh3t019582; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:47:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2U5lhTE019581; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:47:43 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [205.237.194.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2U5lgtW019575 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:47:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E54CA3210; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 00:47:40 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <4b8aeaa8e8be9293a6d4bb6db793fe6b@sun.com> References: <42533097.45775531@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <4b8aeaa8e8be9293a6d4bb6db793fe6b@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Bjoern Hoehrmann , randy@kbcafe.com, Atomlist X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham X-Face: }I;hHtiZ43-RK8s{or'?iELJ;!_Mt2|\hW'VcAn*UR#@;4p5@s},~+i=>p})B"gMK%m,`?|Cy>=P/om{?_\aOaPaDMK)TkU_b3]A85YU?A 3iYcf9##+Qu~e(m6w=ot[yfp1G)WXBYGcTM{!EWIB2n/%E@5PjJ_GXq(b2Fq0|#uL{ Subject: Re: application/rss+xml Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:47:26 -0800 To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I tried; the official response [1] was that the IESG wanted to see an stable and available spec -- by their standards -- for RSS before putting it in the standards tree. Just doing a registration doesn't cut it. I worked on an RSS 2.0 I-D [2] for a while and then stopped when I got nervous about change control and copyright issues. Given that RSS 2.0 is now hosted at Harvard, it may be that the IESG will consider that a stable enough ref; if not, I'm not nearly as nervous now that it's under a CC license, and I think I could take a crack at the I-D again... I'll do a bit of asking around... 1. https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi? command=view_id&dTag=7792&rfc_flag=0 2. http://www.mnot.net/drafts/draft-nottingham-rss2-00.txt On Mar 29, 2005, at 9:05 PM, Tim Bray wrote: > > On Mar 29, 2005, at 8:55 PM, Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: > >> IESG approval of an Internet-Draft with a media type registration >> would >> register the type, yes. Whether we should try to register application/ >> rss+xml is a different question though. > > D'oh, Randy wanted rss+xml, not atom+xml. Missed the point. -Tim > > > -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 30 01:09:09 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA14565 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 01:09:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2U615ZO021151; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:01:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2U615ha021150; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:01:05 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [205.237.194.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2U614Tp021136 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:01:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10881A3210; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 01:01:02 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <0868ea013778ea06f87f5364f95ca4ea@sun.com> References: <42533097.45775531@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <4b8aeaa8e8be9293a6d4bb6db793fe6b@sun.com> <0868ea013778ea06f87f5364f95ca4ea@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <94d59f91ffe3d5f9bbabb4101f032f3e@mnot.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Bjoern Hoehrmann , randy@kbcafe.com, Atomlist X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham X-Face: }I;hHtiZ43-RK8s{or'?iELJ;!_Mt2|\hW'VcAn*UR#@;4p5@s},~+i=>p})B"gMK%m,`?|Cy>=P/om{?_\aOaPaDMK)TkU_b3]A85YU?A 3iYcf9##+Qu~e(m6w=ot[yfp1G)WXBYGcTM{!EWIB2n/%E@5PjJ_GXq(b2Fq0|#uL{ Subject: Re: application/rss+xml Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:00:59 -0800 To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was going for a single media type for all of RSS, with (IIRC) an optional "version" parameter. Generally, having a media type identify a particular version of a format is frowned upon; think about HTML, XML, etc. It's for coarse-grained identification of the format. Of course, given that RSS has separate change controllers, it might be argued that it would be better to have different ones, but I'm not yet convinced; generally, you've got one app that can handle all of the formats; there's no meaningful difference between them. If I did it again, I'd have encouraged Dave to register 'application/vnd.scripting.rss+xml' or 'application/prs.winer.rss+xml'. Oh, well. On Mar 29, 2005, at 9:52 PM, Tim Bray wrote: > > On Mar 29, 2005, at 9:47 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> I tried; the official response [1] was that the IESG wanted to see an >> stable and available spec -- by their standards -- for RSS before >> putting it in the standards tree. Just doing a registration doesn't >> cut it. >> >> I worked on an RSS 2.0 I-D [2] for a while and then stopped when I >> got nervous about change control and copyright issues. Given that RSS >> 2.0 is now hosted at Harvard, it may be that the IESG will consider >> that a stable enough ref; if not, I'm not nearly as nervous now that >> it's under a CC license, and I think I could take a crack at the I-D >> again... > > Should that perhaps be "application/rss2+xml"? There are lots of > RSSes. > > -Tim > > > -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 30 01:09:58 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA14658 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 01:09:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2U627ks021530; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:02:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2U627jx021529; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:02:07 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2U627Sg021510 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:02:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12ld22h.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.136.81] helo=[192.168.1.101]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DGWHB-0001sy-BO; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:02:01 +0000 Message-ID: <424A40D4.5060806@franklinmint.fm> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 01:01:56 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham CC: Tim Bray , Bjoern Hoehrmann , randy@kbcafe.com, Atomlist Subject: Re: application/rss+xml References: <42533097.45775531@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <4b8aeaa8e8be9293a6d4bb6db793fe6b@sun.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Nottingham wrote: > > I tried; the official response [1] was that the IESG wanted to see an > stable and available spec -- by their standards -- for RSS before > putting it in the standards tree. Just doing a registration doesn't cut > it. > > I worked on an RSS 2.0 I-D [2] for a while and then stopped when I got > nervous about change control and copyright issues. Given that RSS 2.0 > is now hosted at Harvard, it may be that the IESG will consider that a > stable enough ref; if not, I'm not nearly as nervous now that it's > under a CC license, and I think I could take a crack at the I-D again... "Share Alike. If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under a license identical to this one." Are IETF drafts compatible with these terms? Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 30 01:14:55 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA15137 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 01:14:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2U69ueW024495; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:09:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2U69unL024494; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:09:56 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2U69tpg024487 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:09:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-12ld22h.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.136.81] helo=[192.168.1.101]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DGWOm-0001wI-O3; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:09:52 +0000 Message-ID: <424A42AE.3080000@franklinmint.fm> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 01:09:50 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham CC: randy@kbcafe.com, Bjoern Hoehrmann , Atomlist , Tim Bray Subject: Re: application/rss+xml References: <42533097.45775531@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <4b8aeaa8e8be9293a6d4bb6db793fe6b@sun.com> <424A40D4.5060806@franklinmint.fm> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Nottingham wrote: > > it's more an issue of whether the CC Attribution + ShareAlike 1.0 > license terms are satisified by the I-D boilerplate. I've just asked CC > that very question... Not really. It says "identical". If it were identical, there wouldn't be a question. Seems like you'd have to talk to Harvard (the copyright holder). It would be good, of course. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 30 01:22:59 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA15988 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 01:22:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2U6G49C026781; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:16:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2U6G434026780; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:16:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [205.237.194.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2U6G3Ia026763 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:16:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4951BA32B8; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 01:16:02 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <424A42AE.3080000@franklinmint.fm> References: <42533097.45775531@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <4b8aeaa8e8be9293a6d4bb6db793fe6b@sun.com> <424A40D4.5060806@franklinmint.fm> <424A42AE.3080000@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <39ee4753871ea172a749296c23d8d66c@mnot.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Atomlist , Bjoern Hoehrmann , Tim Bray , randy@kbcafe.com X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham X-Face: }I;hHtiZ43-RK8s{or'?iELJ;!_Mt2|\hW'VcAn*UR#@;4p5@s},~+i=>p})B"gMK%m,`?|Cy>=P/om{?_\aOaPaDMK)TkU_b3]A85YU?A 3iYcf9##+Qu~e(m6w=ot[yfp1G)WXBYGcTM{!EWIB2n/%E@5PjJ_GXq(b2Fq0|#uL{ Subject: Re: application/rss+xml Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:16:00 -0800 To: Robert Sayre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yeah, I know. I *think* I have a better chance by getting some sort of meaningful answer from CC first, and taking that to Harvard to confirm (or just tell them ;) -- such a query directed to Harvard itself mind wind its way through the halls aimlessly for quite some time, if indeed it ever made it out... On Mar 29, 2005, at 10:09 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: > Mark Nottingham wrote: >> it's more an issue of whether the CC Attribution + ShareAlike 1.0 >> license terms are satisified by the I-D boilerplate. I've just asked >> CC that very question... > > Not really. It says "identical". If it were identical, there wouldn't > be a question. > > Seems like you'd have to talk to Harvard (the copyright holder). It > would be good, of course. > > Robert Sayre > > > -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 30 01:55:41 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA14566 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 01:09:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2U64YJB022482; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:04:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2U64Y4P022481; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:04:34 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [205.237.194.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2U64You022472 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:04:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5AA4A32B8; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 01:04:27 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <424A40D4.5060806@franklinmint.fm> References: <42533097.45775531@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <4b8aeaa8e8be9293a6d4bb6db793fe6b@sun.com> <424A40D4.5060806@franklinmint.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: randy@kbcafe.com, Bjoern Hoehrmann , Atomlist , Tim Bray X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham X-Face: }I;hHtiZ43-RK8s{or'?iELJ;!_Mt2|\hW'VcAn*UR#@;4p5@s},~+i=>p})B"gMK%m,`?|Cy>=P/om{?_\aOaPaDMK)TkU_b3]A85YU?A 3iYcf9##+Qu~e(m6w=ot[yfp1G)WXBYGcTM{!EWIB2n/%E@5PjJ_GXq(b2Fq0|#uL{ Subject: Re: application/rss+xml Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:04:22 -0800 To: Robert Sayre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit it's more an issue of whether the CC Attribution + ShareAlike 1.0 license terms are satisified by the I-D boilerplate. I've just asked CC that very question... On Mar 29, 2005, at 10:01 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: > Mark Nottingham wrote: >> I tried; the official response [1] was that the IESG wanted to see an >> stable and available spec -- by their standards -- for RSS before >> putting it in the standards tree. Just doing a registration doesn't >> cut it. >> I worked on an RSS 2.0 I-D [2] for a while and then stopped when I >> got nervous about change control and copyright issues. Given that >> RSS 2.0 is now hosted at Harvard, it may be that the IESG will >> consider that a stable enough ref; if not, I'm not nearly as nervous >> now that it's under a CC license, and I think I could take a crack >> at the I-D again... > > "Share Alike. If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you > may distribute the resulting work only under a license identical to > this one." > > Are IETF drafts compatible with these terms? > > Robert Sayre > > -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 30 05:42:21 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA10520 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 05:42:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2UAWfqc025806; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 02:32:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2UAWfH9025805; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 02:32:41 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2UAWeHO025791 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 02:32:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 62727 invoked by uid 17064); 30 Mar 2005 10:32:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.6]) ([83.112.140.233]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 30 Mar 2005 10:32:39 -0000 In-Reply-To: <002a01c534f3$e9520110$6502a8c0@miko947ymju833> References: <21fa6f3a1cb9731b882d937b6576be7a@bblfish.net> <002a01c534f3$e9520110$6502a8c0@miko947ymju833> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: bloged , "'Atom Syntax'" From: Henry Story Subject: Re: atom link analysis - was: link confusion? Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:32:36 +0200 To: Jeremy Wong <50263336@student.cityu.edu.hk>, atom-owl@googlegroups.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 30 Mar 2005, at 08:44, Jeremy Wong wrote: > I am not going to reply your message in details. Just a note of my > feeling that your first representation is simple, while the structured > representations are complex. A simple representation favours > searching, while a complex representation retards a search. I think that depends on what tools you are using for search. For example with BlogEd I am using a Java interfaces to surf the triple base (that's a little what if feels like :-) With the following code: ------------8<------------------------------------------------------ public interface AtomEntry { String BASE = AtomEntryID.BASE; String LINK_BASE = "http://www.iana.org/assignments/relation/"; String RDF_TYPE = BASE + "Entry"; /** * An entry can have any number of contributors */ String RDF_contributor = BASE + "contributor"; AtomPerson addContributor(AtomPerson person); Collection getAllContributor(); ... /** * get all alternate representations of this entry */ String RDF_alternate = LINK_BASE + "alternate"; void addAlternate(URI link); Collection getAllAlternate(); ... } ------------8<------------------------------------------------------ It will be easier to get the alternate links as it will be just one method call away. What my previous reasoning allows me to do is to think of the relation in a way that would (if correct) make the above java correct. I am happy with the part of the argument that allows me to think of iana:alternate as a relation between an Entry and something. What I am still not quite clear about is what that something really is. Is it a URI (as expressed in the example code above), or is it a representation, or is at representation-URI combination? What is the alternate thing we are pointing to? I am starting to think that there is no way of telling really since these things are completely under-specified by atom. I think one will have to wait for the usage that is made of these and work out from there what people really mean by these terms. As such the safest may be for an aggregator to work with the first definition and use inferencing to reach the others when the situation is clearer. As I am currently writing an editor I can be a little more flexible and use a more private interpretation of these things. (though perhaps I should not use the iana:alternate uri.) Henry Story > > Jeremy > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henry Story" > > To: ; "'SWIG'" > Cc: "bloged" ; "'Atom Syntax'" > > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 9:22 PM > Subject: atom link analysis - was: link confusion? > > >> >> I was trying to interpret the atom:link element [1] >> >> If I try to look at the spec in a simple relational way (what is >> being related to what?) >> then, given the following example atom xml extract, >> >> >> ... >> > type="text/html" >> hreflang="en" >> length="450" >> title="The html entry" >> rel="related/> >> >> >> One may think of representing this with the following N3 >> >> [ a :Entry; >> :link [ :href ; >> :type "text/html"; >> :lang "en"; >> :length "450"; >> :l_title "The html entry"; # see note [2] >> :rel :alternative >> ] >> ]. >> >> >> The problem to my mind is that the above interpretation of the xml is >> confusing >> relations that apply to the link (:rel, :l_title) and relations that >> apply >> to the object of the link (:type, :lang, :length). >> >> Hence I prefer the following >> >> @prefix arch: >> @prefix owl: >> >> [ a :Entry; >> :link [ :href [ owl:sameAs ; >> arch:representation [ >> :type "text/html"; # note [3] >> :lang "en"; >> :length "450" >> ] >> ] >> :l_title "The html entry"; # see note [2] >> :rel :alternative >> ] >> ]. >> >> >> That seems quite good. >> >> Now the interesting thing is that from the above it would seem that >> one >> should be able to deduce the following: >> >> [ a :Entry; >> :alternative [ owl:sameAs ; >> arch:representation [ >> :type "text/html"; # note [3] >> :lang "en"; >> :length "450" >> ] >> ] >> ]. >> >> Ie. the link object is not really an object, but as its name suggests >> is really a relation. This would not be such a problem except for the >> fact >> that we have now lost the title information that was placed on the >> link >> object. >> >> So perhaps what we have is that the link object is an anonymous >> rdfs:SubPropertyOf >> the object of its :rel relation (in our example :alternative) which >> has a special >> title attribute. That would allow us to make the above deduction I >> think. >> >> So if variable relations were allowed (they may be in N3, I am not >> sure), >> one could write >> >> [ a :Entry; >> _:link [ owl:sameAs ; >> arch:representation [ >> :type "text/html"; # note [3] >> :lang "en"; >> :length "450" >> ] >> ] >> ]. >> _:link :rel :alternative; >> :l_title "The html entry". >> >> where :rel is itself a rdfs:SubPropertyOf rdfs:SubProperty. >> >> >> This may make the atom link relation clearer to some :-) >> >> >> Henry Story >> >> >> [1] >> http://www.atompub.org/2005/03/12/draft-ietf-atompub-format-06.html >> [2] the title attribute of the link is called l_title to avoid >> confusing it with the >> title element of the entry >> [3] I am surprised the web arch ontology does not have the vocabulary >> for >> :type, :lang and :length that atom has. >> >> >> >> On 25 Mar 2005, at 21:32, Henry Story wrote: >>> On 25 Mar 2005, at 17:36, Henry Story wrote: >>>> given the following example xml, >>>> >>>> >>>> ... >>>> >>> type="text/html" >>>> hreflang="en" >>>> length="450" >>>> title="The html entry" >>>> rel="related/> >>>> >>>> [snip] >>>> So a better interpretation of the initial xml would be the following >>>> >>>> _e1--is-a-> >>>> |--link-> _link >>>> |--to---->_r--is-a-> >>>> | |--href--> >>>> >>>> | |--type--> "text/html" >>>> | |--lang--> "en" >>>> | |-length-> 450 >>>> |-title--> "The html entry" >>>> |--rel---> "related" >>> >>> Another interpretation of the original xml which would take into >>> account the fact that >>> a link MUST have an href element would be: >>> >>> _e1--is-a-> >>> |--link-> _link >>> |--href--> >>> | |--representation-->_r >>> | |--type--> "text/html" >>> | |--lang--> "en" >>> | |-length-> 450 >>> |-title--> "The html entry" >>> |--rel---> "related" >>> >>> >>> which is saying that a link relates an entry and a resource, and >>> that sometimes >>> it is appropriate to give extra information about representations of >>> that resource. >>> >>> And so more it would perhaps be clearer for the xml to be stated like >>> this >>> >>> >>> ... >>> >> rel="related" >>> href="http://bblfish.net/blog/page5.html#42"> >>> >> lang="en" >>> length="450"/> >>> >>> >>> >>> I am not saying that that is the answer, just that the it may help >>> to make the >>> distinction clearer somehow between properties of the link and >>> properties on the >>> object of the link. >>> >>> Henry >>> >> From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 30 07:38:47 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA22246 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:38:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2UCStiK066865; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:28:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2UCStmo066863; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:28:55 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.verisignlabs.com (cliffie.verisignlabs.com [65.201.175.9]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2UCSrdn066848 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:28:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sah@428cobrajet.net) Received: from dul1shollenbl1 ([::ffff:216.168.239.87]) (AUTH: LOGIN shollenb, SSL: TLSv1/SSLv3,128bits,RC4-MD5) by mail.verisignlabs.com with esmtp; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:28:52 -0500 id 002F009F.424A9B84.00001366 Received-SPF: unknown (Address does not pass the Sender Policy Framework) SPF=HELO; sender=dul1shollenbl1; remoteip=::ffff:216.168.239.87; remotehost=; helo=dul1shollenbl1; receiver=mail.verisignlabs.com; Received-SPF: none (Address does not pass the Sender Policy Framework) SPF=MAILFROM; sender=sah@428cobrajet.net; remoteip=::ffff:216.168.239.87; remotehost=; helo=dul1shollenbl1; receiver=mail.verisignlabs.com; From: "Scott Hollenbeck" To: "'Mark Nottingham'" , "'Tim Bray'" Cc: "'Bjoern Hoehrmann'" , randy@kbcafe.com, "'Atomlist'" Subject: RE: application/rss+xml Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:28:51 -0500 Message-ID: <046F43A8D79C794FA4733814869CDF0749C935@dul1wnexmb01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It might help if the people interested in this question would read the RFC that describes the registration process: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2048.txt 2048 will soon be obsoleted by two other documents: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-freed-mime-p4-06.txt (which is in the RFC Editor queue) http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-freed-media-type-reg-02.txt (which is in last call) Short synopsis: - Community review on the ietf-types list is a "good idea". I require it for types in the standards tree. - The details have to be documented in either an I-D or some other document produced by a "standards body". What defines a "standards body" is open to interpretation by the IESG. - The rules are less stringent for types in the non-standards trees. -Scott- > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Nottingham [mailto:mnot@mnot.net] > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 12:47 AM > To: Tim Bray > Cc: Bjoern Hoehrmann; randy@kbcafe.com; Atomlist > Subject: Re: application/rss+xml > > > > I tried; the official response [1] was that the IESG wanted > to see an > stable and available spec -- by their standards -- for RSS before > putting it in the standards tree. Just doing a registration > doesn't cut > it. > > I worked on an RSS 2.0 I-D [2] for a while and then stopped > when I got > nervous about change control and copyright issues. Given that > RSS 2.0 > is now hosted at Harvard, it may be that the IESG will > consider that a > stable enough ref; if not, I'm not nearly as nervous now that it's > under a CC license, and I think I could take a crack at the I-D > again... > > I'll do a bit of asking around... > > 1. > https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi? > command=view_id&dTag=7792&rfc_flag=0 > 2. http://www.mnot.net/drafts/draft-nottingham-rss2-00.txt > > > On Mar 29, 2005, at 9:05 PM, Tim Bray wrote: > > > > > On Mar 29, 2005, at 8:55 PM, Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: > > > >> IESG approval of an Internet-Draft with a media type registration > >> would > >> register the type, yes. Whether we should try to register > application/ > >> rss+xml is a different question though. > > > > D'oh, Randy wanted rss+xml, not atom+xml. Missed the point. -Tim > > > > > > > > -- > Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 30 07:44:34 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA22653 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:44:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2UCYbmJ069059; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:34:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2UCYbl2069058; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:34:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2UCYbsQ069051 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:34:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 84479 invoked by uid 17064); 30 Mar 2005 12:34:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.6]) ([83.112.140.233]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 30 Mar 2005 12:34:36 -0000 In-Reply-To: <82fc5d71a1e737c870180a1488d984af@bblfish.net> References: <2693b1a97ad9d0ed1cd6a943b5805b68@mac.com> <421881A4.2080808@dehora.net> <82fc5d71a1e737c870180a1488d984af@bblfish.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: <262251bce188500942753430102e27bf@bblfish.net> Cc: Robert Sayre , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= , Paul Hoffman , Mark Nottingham , Tim Bray , Sam Ruby From: Henry Story Subject: Re: Managing entries/entry state [was PaceRepeatIdInDocument solution] Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:34:32 +0200 To: Atom Syntax X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j2UCYbsQ069052 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I would just like to revisit this question, because it will help clarify the "alternate" relation. On 1 Mar 2005, at 11:39, Henry Story wrote: > On 20 Feb 2005, at 13:25, Bill de hÓra wrote: >> Graham, Eric, >> >> My thinking goes like this, >> >> - Is there a difference between an entry and the chunk of XML you >> see in a feed? > > The question is vague and open to many interpretations, but I'd go for > a yes. > > >> - If there is, it will be in the same way there is a difference >> between a resource and a representation in web architecture. > > Yes indeed that is the difference as I read it here [1]. I would like to be a little more specific now. If I take the following entry from the format 06 spec Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok urn:uuid:1225c695-cfb8-4ebb-aaaa-80da344efa6a 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z Then we can say that the above Entry is a representation of the resource. Now my current reading of "alternate" is that this Entry representation had an "alternate" representation at at the time this entry representation was valid (2003-12-13T18:30:02Z) Future representations of the resource may not have an "alternate" representation at that URL. In which case perhaps the language of the "alternate" relation is a little misleading [[ The value "alternate" signifies that the IRI in the value of the href attribute identifies an alternate version of the resource described by the containing element. ]] I think the above is much stronger than what a lot of people will agree to. If I am reading correctly "the resource described by the containing element" would be the resource in the example case. So that our example xml would be saying that is an alternate version of , which is a lot stronger than what we want to say, since we want to allow for domains being hijacked, dying, etc.. I think is much more precise to say that this representation of (the entry above) is an alternative representation of also. Here we would be saying something that is true and helpful. So perhaps the following would be better [[ The value "alternate" signifies that the containing element is an alternative representation of the IRI in the value of the href attribute. ]] Henry Story [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#URI-persistence From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 30 10:01:56 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA05308 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:01:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2UErmQ9096682; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:53:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2UErmNQ096681; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:53:48 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc14.comcast.net (sccrmhc14.comcast.net [204.127.202.59]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2UErlAO096667 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:53:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-247-97.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.247.97]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc14) with SMTP id <2005033014534101400dop1he>; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:53:41 +0000 Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:53:35 -0700 Subject: Re: application/rss+xml Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <94d59f91ffe3d5f9bbabb4101f032f3e@mnot.net> Message-Id: <7E604427-A12B-11D9-8E95-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, March 29, 2005, at 11:00 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Of course, given that RSS has separate change controllers, it might be > argued that it would be better to have different ones, but I'm not yet > convinced; generally, you've got one app that can handle all of the > formats; there's no meaningful difference between them. But of course web browsers can handle GIF, JPEG, HTML,... Is the fact that RSS readers can handle both 1.X and 2.X feeds a result of lack of meaningful difference, or a result of user requirements to support both formats in one app? Not all RSS processors support both. Certainly the fact that there are major similarities makes it much easier to support both. If we do go for a separate subtype for each, it might be good to do something to ensure that they're unambiguous. For example, "application/rss+xml" wouldn't do much to help a person recognize that it applied to one and not the other. "application/rss2+xml" makes that clear, but would become confusing if a hypothetical RSS 3.0 were released based on 2.X and a new MIME type were not registered for the new version. ...of course, contemplating using the same type for 2.X on 3.X might be an argument for using the same one for 1.X and 2.X. How similar would 2.X and 3.X need to be to justify using the same MIME type? This isn't a question I've pondered or heard discussion of enough to comment further. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 30 10:36:52 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA09766 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:36:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2UFS9XL098798; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:28:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2UFS92w098797; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:28:09 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [10.20.30.249] (dsl2-63-249-109-245.cruzio.com [63.249.109.245]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2UFS5mu098789; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:28:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <42533097.45775531@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <4b8aeaa8e8be9293a6d4bb6db793fe6b@sun.com> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:28:02 -0800 To: randy@kbcafe.com From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: application/rss+xml Cc: Atomlist Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: [[ Co-chair hat on ]] At 12:34 AM -0500 3/30/05, Randy Charles Morin wrote: >Do-over. Can this be done thru the Atom WG and how? It's not in our charter, and it is not useful to our chartered work. The current registration in our WG document serves our purposes. You can certainly pursue this as an individual, as others have suggested. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 30 13:43:22 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA27705 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:43:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2UIZacR013930; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:35:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2UIZaO0013929; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:35:36 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2UIZY8e013923 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:35:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2UIZYX8021738 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:35:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IE600IE8GZAZO@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:35:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.102.100] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IE6000LRGZ987@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:35:34 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:35:55 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: application/rss+xml In-reply-to: <94d59f91ffe3d5f9bbabb4101f032f3e@mnot.net> To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Bjoern Hoehrmann , randy@kbcafe.com, Atomlist Message-id: <3d024dc8e7ae14ff70dfd247cb7a0342@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <42533097.45775531@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <4b8aeaa8e8be9293a6d4bb6db793fe6b@sun.com> <0868ea013778ea06f87f5364f95ca4ea@sun.com> <94d59f91ffe3d5f9bbabb4101f032f3e@mnot.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mar 29, 2005, at 10:00 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > I was going for a single media type for all of RSS, with (IIRC) an > optional "version" parameter. Well, if someone wanted to strive for descriptiveness, they should register, for 0.9, 1.0, and 2.0 application/the-rss-that-grew-in-a-neglected-netscape-closet-with-dust- bunnies+xml application/the-rss-that-makes-you-feel-better-using-because-you-are- part-of-the-glorious-semantic-web-future+xml application/the-rss-that-was-invented-by-dave-winer-and-dont-you-dare- forget-it+xml then we'd do application/atom-the-output-of-months-of-boring-committee-work- enlivened-by-occasional-flaming+xml From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 30 13:57:24 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA28790 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:57:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2UIkx92014639; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:46:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2UIkxZb014638; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:46:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web02.designerslab.net (sparky.co.za [66.98.134.28] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2UIkwnT014632 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:46:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mint@franklinmint.fm) Received: from user-0cdfl9t.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.213.61] helo=[192.168.0.3]) by web02.designerslab.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DGiDM-0002Wy-IW; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:46:52 +0000 Message-ID: <424AF41C.1010606@franklinmint.fm> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:46:52 -0500 From: Robert Sayre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Bray CC: Mark Nottingham , Bjoern Hoehrmann , randy@kbcafe.com, Atomlist Subject: Re: application/rss+xml References: <42533097.45775531@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <4b8aeaa8e8be9293a6d4bb6db793fe6b@sun.com> <0868ea013778ea06f87f5364f95ca4ea@sun.com> <94d59f91ffe3d5f9bbabb4101f032f3e@mnot.net> <3d024dc8e7ae14ff70dfd247cb7a0342@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <3d024dc8e7ae14ff70dfd247cb7a0342@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - web02.designerslab.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - franklinmint.fm Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > > > On Mar 29, 2005, at 10:00 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> >> I was going for a single media type for all of RSS, with (IIRC) an >> optional "version" parameter. > > > Well, if someone wanted to strive for descriptiveness, they should > register, for 0.9, 1.0, and 2.0 I suggest we register a new top-level: ultraliberal/... where the subtype can be anything MarkP's parser groks. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 30 15:16:10 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA06041 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:16:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2UK5gum020024; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:05:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2UK5gZs020023; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:05:42 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail02.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail02.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.18]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j2UK5dFa020006 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:05:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 89833 messnum 5243592 invoked from network[83.70.250.89/83-70-250-89.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 30 Mar 2005 20:05:31 -0000 Received: from 83-70-250-89.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (83.70.250.89) by mail02.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 89833) with SMTP; 30 Mar 2005 20:05:31 -0000 Message-ID: <424B0697.2080509@dehora.net> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:05:43 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Sayre CC: Tim Bray , Mark Nottingham , Bjoern Hoehrmann , randy@kbcafe.com, Atomlist Subject: Re: application/rss+xml References: <42533097.45775531@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <4b8aeaa8e8be9293a6d4bb6db793fe6b@sun.com> <0868ea013778ea06f87f5364f95ca4ea@sun.com> <94d59f91ffe3d5f9bbabb4101f032f3e@mnot.net> <3d024dc8e7ae14ff70dfd247cb7a0342@sun.com> <424AF41C.1010606@franklinmint.fm> In-Reply-To: <424AF41C.1010606@franklinmint.fm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Sayre wrote: > I suggest we register a new top-level: > > ultraliberal/.. Huge +1 to this: ultraliberal/+pimpmyfeed ultraliberal/+worksforme ultraliberal/+diveintoaggregatorshite ultraliberal/+halfassedwebdav Perhaps we could get this through the IETF mincer by April 1st? (...so... why are we having this thread again... ?) cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 30 16:32:35 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA26394 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:32:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2ULInLZ028193; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:18:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2ULIn4s028192; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:18:49 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j2ULIkCe028179 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:18:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian.reschke@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 30 Mar 2005 21:18:40 -0000 Received: from pD9535D23.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO [192.168.0.3]) [217.83.93.35] by mail.gmx.net (mp004) with SMTP; 30 Mar 2005 23:18:40 +0200 X-Authenticated: #1915285 Message-ID: <424B17AD.1020305@gmx.de> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 23:18:37 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= CC: Robert Sayre , Tim Bray , Mark Nottingham , Bjoern Hoehrmann , randy@kbcafe.com, Atomlist Subject: Re: application/rss+xml References: <42533097.45775531@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <4b8aeaa8e8be9293a6d4bb6db793fe6b@sun.com> <0868ea013778ea06f87f5364f95ca4ea@sun.com> <94d59f91ffe3d5f9bbabb4101f032f3e@mnot.net> <3d024dc8e7ae14ff70dfd247cb7a0342@sun.com> <424AF41C.1010606@franklinmint.fm> <424B0697.2080509@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: <424B0697.2080509@dehora.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill de hÓra wrote: > ... > ultraliberal/+halfassedwebdav > ... I guess I need you to explain that joke. Julian (confused) -- bytes GmbH -- http://www.greenbytes.de -- tel:+492512807760 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 31 13:18:03 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA19183 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:18:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2VI7UGt059727; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:07:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2VI7UFj059726; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:07:30 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2VI7TeM059718 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:07:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 83337 invoked by uid 17064); 31 Mar 2005 18:07:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.6]) ([83.112.105.162]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 31 Mar 2005 18:07:29 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: <262251bce188500942753430102e27bf@bblfish.net> References: <2693b1a97ad9d0ed1cd6a943b5805b68@mac.com> <421881A4.2080808@dehora.net> <82fc5d71a1e737c870180a1488d984af@bblfish.net> <262251bce188500942753430102e27bf@bblfish.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: From: Henry Story Subject: PaceAlternateLinkWeakening - was Managing entries/entry state Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:07:26 +0200 To: Atom Syntax X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j2VI7UeM059721 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just put this forward as a Pace, but have not put it up on the site, as there is less traffic here now. Abstract: --------- Weakens the link relation just a wee bit. Status: ------- Open Rationale --------- See e-mail below Proposal -------- [[ The value "alternate" signifies that the IRI in the value of the href attribute identifies an alternate version of the resource described by the containing element. ]] with: [[ The value "alternate" signifies that the containing element is an alternative representation of the IRI in the value of the href attribute. ]] On 30 Mar 2005, at 14:34, Henry Story wrote: > I would just like to revisit this question, because it will help > clarify > the "alternate" relation. > > On 1 Mar 2005, at 11:39, Henry Story wrote: >> On 20 Feb 2005, at 13:25, Bill de hÓra wrote: >>> Graham, Eric, >>> >>> My thinking goes like this, >>> >>> - Is there a difference between an entry and the chunk of XML you >>> see in a feed? >> >> The question is vague and open to many interpretations, but I'd go >> for a yes. >> >> >>> - If there is, it will be in the same way there is a difference >>> between a resource and a representation in web architecture. >> >> Yes indeed that is the difference as I read it here [1]. > > I would like to be a little more specific now. If I take the following > entry from the format 06 spec > > > Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok > > urn:uuid:1225c695-cfb8-4ebb-aaaa-80da344efa6a > 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z > > > Then we can say that the above Entry is a representation of the > resource. > > Now my current reading of "alternate" is that this Entry representation > had an "alternate" representation at > > at the time this entry representation was valid (2003-12-13T18:30:02Z) > > Future representations of the > > resource may not have an "alternate" representation at that URL. > > In which case perhaps the language of the "alternate" relation is a > little > misleading > > [[ > The value "alternate" signifies that the IRI in the value of the href > attribute identifies an alternate version of the resource described by > the containing element. > ]] > > I think the above is much stronger than what a lot of people will > agree to. > > If I am reading correctly "the resource described by the containing > element" > would be the resource > in the > example case. > > So that our example xml would be saying that > is an alternate version of > , which is a lot > stronger than what we want to say, since > we want to allow for domains being hijacked, dying, etc.. > > I think is much more precise to say that this representation > of (the entry above) > is an alternative representation of > also. > > Here we would be saying something that is true and helpful. > > So perhaps the following would be better > > [[ > The value "alternate" signifies that the containing element is an > alternative > representation of the IRI in the value of the href attribute. > ]] > > Henry Story > > [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#URI-persistence > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 31 17:45:38 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA19763 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:45:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2VMYQrn079822; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:34:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2VMYQhC079821; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:34:26 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [205.237.194.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2VMYO7u079814 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:34:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (unknown [63.96.169.10]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76083A32AB; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:34:22 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: References: <2693b1a97ad9d0ed1cd6a943b5805b68@mac.com> <421881A4.2080808@dehora.net> <82fc5d71a1e737c870180a1488d984af@bblfish.net> <262251bce188500942753430102e27bf@bblfish.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Atom Syntax X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham X-Face: }I;hHtiZ43-RK8s{or'?iELJ;!_Mt2|\hW'VcAn*UR#@;4p5@s},~+i=>p})B"gMK%m,`?|Cy>=P/om{?_\aOaPaDMK)TkU_b3]A85YU?A 3iYcf9##+Qu~e(m6w=ot[yfp1G)WXBYGcTM{!EWIB2n/%E@5PjJ_GXq(b2Fq0|#uL{ Subject: Re: PaceAlternateLinkWeakening - was Managing entries/entry state Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:34:20 -0800 To: Henry Story X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mar 31, 2005, at 10:07 AM, Henry Story wrote: > The value "alternate" signifies that the containing element is an > alternative > representation of the IRI in the value of the href attribute. ...an alternate representation of the resource identified by the IRI in the value...? -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 31 18:18:50 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA23084 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:18:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2VNA7cP081909; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:10:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2VNA7qD081908; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:10:07 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2VNA6q9081901 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:10:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 2804 invoked by uid 17064); 31 Mar 2005 23:10:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.8]) ([83.112.105.162]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 31 Mar 2005 23:10:04 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: References: <2693b1a97ad9d0ed1cd6a943b5805b68@mac.com> <421881A4.2080808@dehora.net> <82fc5d71a1e737c870180a1488d984af@bblfish.net> <262251bce188500942753430102e27bf@bblfish.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <78f762b706a5d5e6c3d1e65cc24bd60e@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: PaceAlternateLinkWeakening - was Managing entries/entry state Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 01:10:01 +0200 To: Atom Syntax , Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1 Apr 2005, at 00:34, Mark Nottingham wrote: > On Mar 31, 2005, at 10:07 AM, Henry Story wrote: > >> The value "alternate" signifies that the containing element is an >> alternative >> representation of the IRI in the value of the href attribute. > > ...an alternate representation of the resource identified by the IRI > in the value...? yes correct. Thanks for pointing this out. Proposal -------- replace [[ The value "alternate" signifies that the IRI in the value of the href attribute identifies an alternate version of the resource described by the containing element. ]] with: [[ The value "alternate" signifies that the containing element is an alternative representation of the resource identified by the IRI in the value of the href attribute. ]] > > -- > Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 31 18:50:09 2005 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA25887 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:50:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2VNceq4083136; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:38:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j2VNceRL083135; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:38:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j2VNcd3i083125 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:38:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Fri, 1 Apr 2005 05:38:31 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 09:38:27 +1000 Subject: Re: PaceAlternateLinkWeakening - was Managing entries/entry state From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <78f762b706a5d5e6c3d1e65cc24bd60e@bblfish.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/4/05 9:10 AM, "Henry Story" wrote: > The value "alternate" signifies that the containing element is an alternative > representation of the resource identified by the IRI in the value of the href > attribute. You do realise you've reversed the directionality of the relationship here, right? IMHO, best not to introduce this ambiguity (directionality) into the spec. Proposal: -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The value "alternate" signifies that the resource identified by the IRI in the value of the href is an alternative representation of the resource described by the containing element. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- (yes, I know that "alternate" is a commutative bi-di relationship) e.