From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 01 00:20:35 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DoD10-0006GB-TI for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 00:20:35 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA10618 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 00:20:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j614DGOI059194; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:13:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j614DGc3059193; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:13:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.pubsub.com (mail.pubsub.com [209.11.36.150]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j614DFIJ059143; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:13:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from IBMC101DE8DFED (cpe-68-174-167-137.nyc.res.rr.com [68.174.167.137]) by mail.pubsub.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5C6A724016; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 00:13:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <006301c57df3$2f48eb00$6600a8c0@IBMC101DE8DFED> From: "Bob Wyman" To: "James M Snell" , "Paul Hoffman" Cc: References: <20050622152507.3CE73724A2C@mail.pubsub.com> <42C2FAC2.4000802@gmail.com> <42C440E9.2070700@gmail.com> Subject: Re: More on Atom XML signatures and encryption Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 00:13:06 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Hoffman wrote: >>Same as above. Even though it is included-by-reference, the referenced >>content is still a part of the message. > No, it isn't. The reference is part of the message. +1 The signature should only cover the bits that are actually in the element (feed or entry) that is signed. Referenced data may be under different administrative control, may change independently of the signed element, etc. bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 01 00:29:40 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DoD9o-0000qc-PQ for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 00:29:40 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA11762 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 00:29:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j614NK1K067669; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:23:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j614NKWD067668; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:23:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j614NKhH067587 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:23:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 58so228668wri for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:23:14 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=m+cPuaVuCb0ZVWKwiQSU/IIXrFJmViuYzTsRK3ObySKlXF8ksYuZwhRNvBCbc6PjVjOAnH7FFKNzcIwt/kgP72KAkprFSL4NYC6Fq252d0MjEHW7vByjc0nul728hLP0Ehdw2nQR/2FxvbDD2uLxHDGPlEfPUGcT3qlathpbx1g= Received: by 10.54.45.21 with SMTP id s21mr1045914wrs; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id d6sm698210wra.2005.06.30.21.23.14; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42C4C52E.5040605@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:23:10 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bob Wyman CC: Paul Hoffman , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: More on Atom XML signatures and encryption References: <20050622152507.3CE73724A2C@mail.pubsub.com> <42C2FAC2.4000802@gmail.com> <42C440E9.2070700@gmail.com> <006301c57df3$2f48eb00$6600a8c0@IBMC101DE8DFED> In-Reply-To: <006301c57df3$2f48eb00$6600a8c0@IBMC101DE8DFED> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok, this is fine. I'll back this out of the draft. Bob Wyman wrote: > Paul Hoffman wrote: > >>> Same as above. Even though it is included-by-reference, the >>> referenced content is still a part of the message. >> >> No, it isn't. The reference is part of the message. > > +1 > The signature should only cover the bits that are actually in the > element (feed or entry) that is signed. Referenced data may be under > different administrative control, may change independently of the > signed element, etc. > > bob wyman > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 01 03:54:36 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DoGM7-0003VI-42 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 03:54:36 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA04137 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 03:54:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j617jQC3042934; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 00:45:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j617jQCK042933; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 00:45:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j617jOuX042841; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 00:45:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp) Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id j617jFC03965; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 16:45:15 +0900 (JST) Received: from nodnsquery(133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via csmap id a5c34e6e_ea05_11d9_8e9c_0030482532aa_18388; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 16:56:36 +0900 (JST) Received: from Spooler by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32) ID MO006822; 1 Jul 05 16:50:17 +0900 Received: from spooler by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32); 1 Jul 05 16:50:03 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (133.2.210.64) by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32) with ESMTP ID MG006821; 1 Jul 05 16:49:56 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20050701164010.08ef60a0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 16:44:23 +0900 To: Paul Hoffman , Atom WG From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: Clearing a "discuss" vote on the Atom format Cc: Russ Housley In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 10:26 05/07/01, Paul Hoffman wrote: >To be added near the end of Section 5.1 of atompub-format: > > Section 6.5.1 of [W3C.REC-xmldsig-core-20020212] requires support > for Canonical XML. Atom Processors that sign Atom Documents MUST > use Canonical XML. Hello Paul, The rest of your changes looked reasonable, but the MUST above looks too strong to me. What about something like "Atom Processors that sign Atom Documents MUST support the use of Canonical XML." or even "Atom Processors that sign Atom Documents MUST use Canonical XML by default; they MAY use other canonicalizations at user request." The reason for this is to make sure we have interoperability with a mandatory-to-implement (and default-to-use) canonicalization, but that we don't disallow other canonicalizations that for one or the other as of now not yet clear reason may be preferable in some cases in the future (but in your wording would prohibit the result to be called Atom at all). Regards, Martin. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 01 05:06:39 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DoHTr-0001ME-OD for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 05:06:39 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA09207 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 05:06:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j618xedq000807; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 01:59:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j618xeJa000806; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 01:59:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j618xdiZ000755 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 01:59:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 01 Jul 2005 08:59:32 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-220-87.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.220.87] by mail.gmx.net (mp013) with SMTP; 01 Jul 2005 10:59:32 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:04:09 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom WG Cc: Russ Housley Subject: Re: Clearing a "discuss" vote on the Atom format Message-ID: <20050701090409.GD12300@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom WG , Russ Housley References: <6.0.0.20.2.20050701164010.08ef60a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20050701164010.08ef60a0@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id FAA09207 * Martin Duerst [2005-07-01 09:55]: > The rest of your changes looked reasonable, but the MUST above > looks too strong to me. What about something like > "Atom Processors that sign Atom Documents MUST support the use > of Canonical XML." or even > "Atom Processors that sign Atom Documents MUST use Canonical XML > by default; they MAY use other canonicalizations at user request." I agree, but I think the second wording is confusing. It doesn=E2=80=99t actually say anything different from the first wording, even though it seems to imply more. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 01 05:06:42 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DoHTu-0001Na-1H for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 05:06:42 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA09225 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 05:06:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j618vFJW099080; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 01:57:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j618vFAE099079; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 01:57:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j618vDge098980 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 01:57:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 01 Jul 2005 08:57:08 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-220-87.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.220.87] by mail.gmx.net (mp027) with SMTP; 01 Jul 2005 10:57:08 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:01:38 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom WG Cc: Russ Housley Subject: Re: Clearing a "discuss" vote on the Atom format Message-ID: <20050701090138.GC12300@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom WG , Russ Housley References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * Paul Hoffman [2005-07-01 03:40]: > Below is what Russ asks for, and my suggested changes. The WG > should let me know if they agree or disagree with my wording. +1 to all changes, except that Atom Processors that sign Atom Documents MUST use Canonical XML. should be Atom Processors that sign Atom Documents MUST support the use of Canonical XML. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 01 05:21:18 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DoHi1-0001Bo-Si for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 05:21:18 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA11230 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 05:21:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j619EFQJ010166; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 02:14:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j619EFqN010161; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 02:14:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j619EESw010133 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 02:14:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Fri, 1 Jul 2005 19:14:50 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 19:14:08 +1000 Subject: Re: Clearing a "discuss" vote on the Atom format From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20050701090138.GC12300@klangraum> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/7/05 7:01 PM, "A. Pagaltzis" wrote: > Atom Processors that sign Atom Documents MUST support the use > of Canonical XML. what about Atom Processors that are not signing stuff, but is instead reading/validating those signatures? e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 01 08:32:06 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DoKgg-00082H-6d for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 08:32:06 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA16600 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 08:32:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j61COkWj000637; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 05:24:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j61COked000636; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 05:24:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j61COjPi000533 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 05:24:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 01 Jul 2005 12:24:34 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-220-87.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.220.87] by mail.gmx.net (mp024) with SMTP; 01 Jul 2005 14:24:34 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 14:28:41 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-00.txt Message-ID: <20050701122841.GF12311@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <097CC973-BC19-4838-9076-019A9FD614EC@mnot.net> <1f2ed5cd05062901577845007@mail.gmail.com> <788DD8A0-45CB-4E6F-8E36-B13184D009B7@mnot.net> <42C2D5E0.10205@gmail.com> <7B9235E7-4FB3-4EE1-84B6-A242A1AA0575@mnot.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7B9235E7-4FB3-4EE1-84B6-A242A1AA0575@mnot.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id IAA16600 * Mark Nottingham [2005-06-30 22:15]: > The problem I'm solving is how to reconstruct the *entire* > state of the logical feed, not just one partial representation > of it; although RFC3229 could be used to do that, it would > require feed authors to post the entire content of their feed > (potentially, many megabytes). This would incur a huge load, > because any clients that don't support RFC3229 would have to > GET the entire feed, leading to severe bandwidth problems. No, that=E2=80=99s not necessary. For fetches which don=E2=80=99t supply = any RFC3229 headers, you can simply return the partial feed that you always return. The only problem to solve in that case is how one would go about downloading the entire archive when one has never polled the feed before. A simple solution that lets anyone define their own server-side mechanism is to use a different URL given by @rel=3D'full-archive' (or something like that.) But this is problematic in that there=E2=80=99s no defense if a non-RFC3229-compliant client ever stumbles upon this URL. This could be avoided by an extension element that provides an RFC3229-compliant client with the details it needs to supply the headers for which the server will return the entire feed. (In the simplest form it could simply be an element that contains the ETag itself as its content, though that feels like a kludge along the lines of HTML=E2=80=99s .) Clients without RFC3229 support will then never be able to request the entire archive. (The point is not to defend against abuse =E2=80=93 that=E2=80=99s not possible =E2=80=93= , it is to prevent harm from hapless users with dumb aggregators.) Thinking about it, the cleanest way to solve this is actually not the use of an extension element in Atom, but adding support for this scenario to RFC3229+feed. The original RFC3229 obviously does not assume it might be used an environment where partial representations are, in fact, the default, rather than the exception, as is generally the case with feeds. RFC3229+feed could f.ex suggest that for requests that include RFC3229 headers, the server return headers with the response which inform the client how to request the entirety of the feed =E2=80=93 maybe "Resource-Initial-ETag" or something like that. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 01 11:45:34 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DoNhu-0005Hs-1E for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:45:34 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA07742 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:45:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j61Fb3Jd025499; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 08:37:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j61Fb3Ln025498; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 08:37:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [10.20.30.249] (dsl2-63-249-92-231.cruzio.com [63.249.92.231]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j61FavGU025386; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 08:36:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20050701164010.08ef60a0@localhost> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20050701164010.08ef60a0@localhost> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 08:36:37 -0700 To: Martin Duerst , Atom WG From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: Clearing a "discuss" vote on the Atom format Cc: Russ Housley Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At 4:44 PM +0900 7/1/05, Martin Duerst wrote: >At 10:26 05/07/01, Paul Hoffman wrote: > >>To be added near the end of Section 5.1 of atompub-format: >> >> Section 6.5.1 of [W3C.REC-xmldsig-core-20020212] requires support >> for Canonical XML. Atom Processors that sign Atom Documents MUST > > use Canonical XML. > >The rest of your changes looked reasonable, but the MUST above >looks too strong to me. Good catch. I think we can make the requirement for canonicalization like we do for encryption and signing: put the onus on the receiver. That would change the wording to: Atom Processors that verify signed Atom Documents MUST be able to canonicalize with Canonical XML. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 01 11:54:15 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DoNqJ-00062B-HR for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:54:15 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA08752 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:54:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j61Bo0m1060892; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 04:50:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j61Bo0Hk060891; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 04:50:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j61BnxXO060725 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 04:49:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 01 Jul 2005 11:49:52 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-220-87.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.220.87] by mail.gmx.net (mp014) with SMTP; 01 Jul 2005 13:49:52 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:54:24 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Clearing a "discuss" vote on the Atom format Message-ID: <20050701115424.GE12311@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <20050701090138.GC12300@klangraum> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * Eric Scheid [2005-07-01 11:25]: > On 1/7/05 7:01 PM, "A. Pagaltzis" wrote: > > > Atom Processors that sign Atom Documents MUST support the > > use of Canonical XML. > > what about Atom Processors that are not signing stuff, but is > instead reading/validating those signatures? What about them? They too MUST support the use of Canonical XML. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 01 12:15:15 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DoOAd-0004gO-Cx for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 12:15:15 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA11359 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:15:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j61G6A12055447; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 09:06:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j61G6AFw055446; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 09:06:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.147.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j61G693Y055170; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 09:06:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57D96BE; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 09:06:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (spike.verity.com [192.168.4.22]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j61G5viN023404; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 09:06:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 09:06:12 -0700 From: Walter Underwood To: Martin Duerst , Paul Hoffman , Atom WG Cc: Russ Housley Subject: Re: Clearing a "discuss" vote on the Atom format Message-ID: <71AECDEFDD973CF5E7FA2200@adsl-64-166-133-244.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20050701164010.08ef60a0@localhost> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20050701164010.08ef60a0@localhost> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Mac OS X) X-Face: 7Vqnb4fOVKsO)3JuUXKxR\M]:e"u'eG`Zue*.((7i7%P%rvZgS[j~95@C-s3i (s!e;OX`'Pngn5lq*Td}#,"5!^jm(65.";[GPtD^c(/1TtMe&wYO;_}\!}fRkxs%q#Jk 5E^BlXwR+8}qOwy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On July 1, 2005 4:44:23 PM +0900 Martin Duerst wrote: > > The reason for this is to make sure we have interoperability > with a mandatory-to-implement (and default-to-use) canonicalization, > but that we don't disallow other canonicalizations that for one > or the other as of now not yet clear reason may be preferable in > some cases in the future (but in your wording would prohibit > the result to be called Atom at all). A potential future reason that we can't even characterize isn't enough reason for me to support this. If we discover weaknesses in the canonicalization, we'll need to change Atom anyway. Explicitly making room for future incompatible canonicalizations doesn't make any sense to me. What is the point of calling something "Atom" when it uses a canonicalization which prevents interop with legal Atom implementations? wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect, Verity From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 01 12:37:20 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DoOW0-0003rA-9g for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 12:37:20 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA13464 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:37:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j61GJslG070905; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 09:19:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j61GJrgX070904; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 09:19:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j61GJrCJ070881 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 09:19:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i16so335017wra for ; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 09:19:47 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=sePgU5QWaXcTgzbzFBii9bqMEgYKq5Go0Qa31QdVxQ0DgQ/hAP9MS4Muhh4SHDGinejhS86wiE4UorvzpW/MCrNi+p5YTFvR+nuVQYPd5IqM3JCRHA+PZOPGcWPBWGdonRlt3eJ2Ndnc7Le6qA+Dec3QPJBKnTk7OKF6PJqUaCU= Received: by 10.54.39.67 with SMTP id m67mr1645856wrm; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 09:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id g9sm2073132wra.2005.07.01.09.19.46; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 09:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42C56D1D.101@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 09:19:41 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Walter Underwood CC: Martin Duerst , Paul Hoffman , Atom WG , Russ Housley Subject: Re: Clearing a "discuss" vote on the Atom format References: <6.0.0.20.2.20050701164010.08ef60a0@localhost> <71AECDEFDD973CF5E7FA2200@adsl-64-166-133-244.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <71AECDEFDD973CF5E7FA2200@adsl-64-166-133-244.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +1 on Paul's suggested changes and +1 on wunder's comments below. Walter Underwood wrote: >--On July 1, 2005 4:44:23 PM +0900 Martin Duerst wrote: > > >>The reason for this is to make sure we have interoperability >>with a mandatory-to-implement (and default-to-use) canonicalization, >>but that we don't disallow other canonicalizations that for one >>or the other as of now not yet clear reason may be preferable in >>some cases in the future (but in your wording would prohibit >>the result to be called Atom at all). >> >> > >A potential future reason that we can't even characterize isn't >enough reason for me to support this. > >If we discover weaknesses in the canonicalization, we'll need >to change Atom anyway. Explicitly making room for future incompatible >canonicalizations doesn't make any sense to me. > >What is the point of calling something "Atom" when it uses a >canonicalization which prevents interop with legal Atom implementations? > >wunder >-- >Walter Underwood >Principal Architect, Verity > > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 01 14:41:25 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DoQS5-0002dk-0I for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 14:41:25 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA27376 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 14:41:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j61IWMYF096539; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:32:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j61IWMbX096538; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:32:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j61IWLef096521; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:32:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j61IWL8t025561; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:32:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IIY00A58OTW62@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM>; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 12:32:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.0.101] ([24.70.228.162]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IIY002AJOTVUG@mail.sun.net>; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 12:32:20 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:32:28 -0700 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Clearing a "discuss" vote on the Atom format In-reply-to: To: Paul Hoffman Cc: Atom WG , Russ Housley Message-id: <7583D602-8C3C-4D2A-B103-2448DE8D25D5@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Jun 30, 2005, at 6:26 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > > Greetings again. Russ Housley, one of the two Security Area > Directors, has placed a "discuss" vote on the Atom format document. > You can read it at pidtracker.cgi?command=view_comment&id=36890>>. Fortunately, it > seems reasonably easy to clear this discuss. I'm +1 on Paul's changes. One editorial comment: > To be added near the beginning of Section 5 of atompub-format: > > Producers of feeds and/or entries, and intermediaries who aggregate > feeds and/or entries, may have sound business reasons for signing > and/or encrypting otherwise-unprotected content. For example, > a merchant might digitally sign a message that contains a discount > coupon for its products. A bank that uses Atom to deliver customer > statements is very likely to want to sign and encrypt those > messages to protect their customers' financial information and to > assure the customer of their authenticity. Intermediaries may want > to encrypt aggregated feeds so that a passive observer cannot tell > what topics the recipient is interested in. There are hundreds > of other reasons why Atom documents might be signed, encrypted, > or both. I'd cut this back to one sentence saying. "There are many application scenarios where Atom users will wish to apply digital signature, encryption, or both to Atom documents." The examples are non-comprehensive now and will probably look hopelessly quaint before too long. But if people prefer Paul's language I can live with it. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 01 14:51:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DoQbS-0005U2-UE for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 14:51:07 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA28266 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 14:51:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j61IfmRG007944; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:41:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j61IfmZH007943; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:41:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [205.237.194.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j61Ifkj1007848 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:41:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.3] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72A83A32A9; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 14:41:45 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <20050701122841.GF12311@klangraum> References: <097CC973-BC19-4838-9076-019A9FD614EC@mnot.net> <1f2ed5cd05062901577845007@mail.gmail.com> <788DD8A0-45CB-4E6F-8E36-B13184D009B7@mnot.net> <42C2D5E0.10205@gmail.com> <7B9235E7-4FB3-4EE1-84B6-A242A1AA0575@mnot.net> <20050701122841.GF12311@klangraum> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v730) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <870B5867-AC32-4DF7-98DD-F37BC346B690@mnot.net> Cc: Atom Syntax X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-00.txt Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:41:42 -0700 To: "A.Pagaltzis" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j61Iflj1007888 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id OAA28266 On 01/07/2005, at 5:28 AM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > No, that=92s not necessary. For fetches which don=92t supply any > RFC3229 headers, you can simply return the partial feed that you > always return. How do you figure that? HTTP delta encoding is a generic mechanism =20 layered into HTTP; if you do a bare GET against a resource, the =20 server has to return the whole representation. > The only problem to solve in that case is how one would go about > downloading the entire archive when one has never polled the feed > before. A simple solution that lets anyone define their own > server-side mechanism is to use a different URL given by > @rel=3D'full-archive' (or something like that.) But this is > problematic in that there=92s no defense if a non-RFC3229-compliant > client ever stumbles upon this URL. > > This could be avoided by an extension element that provides an > RFC3229-compliant client with the details it needs to supply the > headers for which the server will return the entire feed. (In the > simplest form it could simply be an element that contains the > ETag itself as its content, though that feels like a kludge along > the lines of HTML=92s .) Clients without RFC3229 support will > then never be able to request the entire archive. (The point is > not to defend against abuse =96 that=92s not possible =96, it is to > prevent harm from hapless users with dumb aggregators.) Where does it talk about this in RFC3229? A delta-capable =20 intermediary is going to be completely unaware of this, and very =20 likely to return erroneous responses. > Thinking about it, the cleanest way to solve this is actually not > the use of an extension element in Atom, but adding support for > this scenario to RFC3229+feed. The original RFC3229 obviously > does not assume it might be used an environment where partial > representations are, in fact, the default, rather than the > exception, as is generally the case with feeds. RFC3229+feed > could f.ex suggest that for requests that include RFC3229 > headers, the server return headers with the response which inform > the client how to request the entirety of the feed =96 maybe > "Resource-Initial-ETag" or something like that. Maybe it shouldn't be called RFC3229, but what it is; a format-=20 specific extension to HTTP. Which begs the question; why do it in HTTP at all, if it's format-=20 specific? Format-specific protocol extensions are generally =20 considered bad practice. Why not do it in the format? Regards, -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 01 15:00:01 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DoQk4-0004OP-Vy for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:00:01 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA29130 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 14:59:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j61IqHGX019430; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:52:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j61IqH2W019429; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:52:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [205.237.194.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j61IqGOi019422 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:52:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.3] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E464A32A9 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 14:52:16 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v730) In-Reply-To: References: <6.0.0.20.2.20050701164010.08ef60a0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Clearing a "discuss" vote on the Atom format Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:52:15 -0700 To: Atom WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +1 On 01/07/2005, at 8:36 AM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > > At 4:44 PM +0900 7/1/05, Martin Duerst wrote: > > >> At 10:26 05/07/01, Paul Hoffman wrote: >> >> >> >>> To be added near the end of Section 5.1 of atompub-format: >>> >>> Section 6.5.1 of [W3C.REC-xmldsig-core-20020212] requires >>> support >>> for Canonical XML. Atom Processors that sign Atom Documents MUST >>> >>> >> > use Canonical XML. >> >> The rest of your changes looked reasonable, but the MUST above >> looks too strong to me. >> >> > > Good catch. I think we can make the requirement for > canonicalization like we do for encryption and signing: put the > onus on the receiver. That would change the wording to: > > Atom Processors that verify signed Atom Documents MUST > be able to canonicalize with Canonical XML. > > --Paul Hoffman, Director > --Internet Mail Consortium > > > > -- Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist Office of the CTO BEA Systems -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 01 15:24:44 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DoR80-0007aB-7s for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:24:44 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA02284 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 15:24:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j61JFil0044380; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:15:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j61JFikI044379; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:15:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.rfburst.com (mail.rfburst.com [66.119.143.51]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j61JFhbn044350 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:15:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ho@alum.mit.edu) Received: from localhost.localdomain (rfb.rfburst.com [66.119.143.249]) by mail.rfburst.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j61JFbWn024181; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:15:38 -0600 Received: from localhost.localdomain (tobermory [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j61JFgeI020797; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:15:42 -0600 Received: (from ho@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j61JFgmN020793; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:15:42 -0600 Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:15:42 -0600 Message-Id: <200507011915.j61JFgmN020793@localhost.localdomain> From: "The Purple Streak, Hilarie Orman" To: Tim.Bray@Sun.COM Cc: housley@vigilsec.com, atom-syntax@imc.org In-reply-to: Yourmessage <7583D602-8C3C-4D2A-B103-2448DE8D25D5@sun.com> Subject: Re: Clearing a "discuss" vote on the Atom format X-esmartscan-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-esmartscan-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: ho@alum.mit.edu Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Using this bare sentence: > "There are many application scenarios where Atom users will wish to > apply digital signature, encryption, or both to Atom documents." is not useful. One cannot read the sentence without asking "What are they? Can you tell me what inspired the assertion? Please, a hint!" For example, I couldn't imagine why a feed would be encrypted, and I'm still skeptical that anyone would actually get the key management in place for doing this. I'd take the scenarios and put them into the usual security categories: 1. The feed producer may want to assure the consumers of the authenticity and integrity of the data. 2. The feed may contain information that must be protected from eavesdroppers. Such sensitive or confidential data may be encrypted so that only the intended recipients can read it. 3. Both of the cases 1 and 2 may apply at once, and the data will be signed and encrypted. I think Paul's examples are good, but I'd scotch > There are hundreds > of other reasons why Atom documents might be signed, encrypted, > or both. because, gosh, maybe there are thousands, or dozens, or a few. Who knows? It's better to let the reader's imagination, now sparked by both general scenarios and a few example, run rampant. Hilarie From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 01 15:38:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DoRL9-0001Gq-7L for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:38:19 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA04057 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 15:38:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j61JM2QJ051396; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:22:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j61JM2LG051395; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:22:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.243.4]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j61JM1oo051363 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:22:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from housley@vigilsec.com) Received: (qmail 15266 invoked by uid 0); 1 Jul 2005 19:20:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (138.88.150.58) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2005 19:20:41 -0000 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050701150806.052dbc10@mail.binhost.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:20:40 -0400 To: Paul Hoffman From: Russ Housley Subject: Re: Clearing a "discuss" vote on the Atom format Cc: hartmans-ietf@mit.edu, atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Paul: Since I am going to be out next week, please include Sam Hartman on future correspondence. If Sam agrees to any [articular wording, I will accept that wording as a resolution of the DISCUSS issue. >> Section 5 does not provide sufficient detail for interoperability. >> Unfortunately, the complexity of XML and the variety of contexts in >> which it is used made it impossible for the XMLDSIG WG to come up >> with one set of canonicalization rules that are "distinguished." >> By distinguished, I mean that there is exactly one way to represent >> the XML object. There are two canonicalization rule sets: the >> Canonical XML and the Exclusive XML Canonicalization. Specify >> which one is mandatory-to-implement. > >To be added near the end of Section 5.1 of atompub-format: > > Section 6.5.1 of [W3C.REC-xmldsig-core-20020212] requires support > for Canonical XML. Atom Processors that sign Atom Documents MUST > use Canonical XML. I have seen a lot of push-back from the members of the atom-syntax@imc.org about your proposed wording. However, a mandatory-to-implement canonicalization algorithm is needed. The creator of a feed / entry needs a algorithm that is supported by all implementations. I do not care which of the algorithms you choose to mandate, but you need to pick one of the defines ones or define a new one. >> Section 5 should tell the reader when the use of digital signatures >> and encryption are desirable. > >To be added near the beginning of Section 5 of atompub-format: > > Producers of feeds and/or entries, and intermediaries who aggregate > feeds and/or entries, may have sound business reasons for signing > and/or encrypting otherwise-unprotected content. For example, > a merchant might digitally sign a message that contains a discount > coupon for its products. A bank that uses Atom to deliver customer > statements is very likely to want to sign and encrypt those > messages to protect their customers' financial information and to > assure the customer of their authenticity. Intermediaries may want > to encrypt aggregated feeds so that a passive observer cannot tell > what topics the recipient is interested in. There are hundreds > of other reasons why Atom documents might be signed, encrypted, > or both. Fine. >> Also, I would like to see mandatory- >> to-implement algorithms specified. > >To be added near the end of Section 5.1 of atompub-format: > > Section 4.4.2 of [W3C.REC-xmldsig-core-20020212] requires support > for DSA signatures and recommends support for RSA signatures. > However, because of the much greater popularity in the market of > RSA versus DSA, Atom Processors that verify signed Atom Documents MUST > be able to verify RSA signatures, but do not need be able to verify DSA > signatures. Atom documents MAY use HMACs for signatures, but this > type of signature is not expected to have wide adoption any time soon. I am not totally happy with this text. Since you do not want to delve into the key management issues associated with encryption and MACs, you need to say that MACs SHOULD NOT be used. >To be added near the end of Section 5.2 of atompub-format: > > Section 5.1 of [W3C.REC-xmlenc-core-20021210] requires support of > TripleDES, AES-128, and AES-256. Atom Processors that decrypt Atom > Documents MUST be able to decrypt with AES-128. Please state that AES-128 is used in CBC mode. >> If appropriate, use MUST- and >> SHOULD+ as they were defined by the IPsec WG to tell implementors >> about future algorithm requirements. > >I do not think it is appropriate to do that here because we could get out >of sync with the requirements if the W3C documents evolve. Given the selection of mandatory-to-implement algorithms above, this is fine. >> In section 5, please state the order of the nesting if both digital >> signature and encryption are used. I believe that signing the >> plaintext is the correct ordering in this situation. > >To be added to a new subsection 5.3 of atompub-format: > > Encryption based on [W3C.REC-xmlenc-core-20021210] does not assure > integrity of the original document. When an Atom Document is to be > signed and encrypted, it is generally a good idea to first sign the > document, then encrypt the signed document. This provides integrity > to the base document while encrypting all the information, including > the identity of the entity that signed the document. I would prefer a stronger working here. Since MACs might be supported in the future, the signature MUST be applied before the encryption. >> Since XML encryption does not provide integrity, it is important to use >> XML digital signature whenever encryption is used. When a digital >> signature algorithm is used, this should be straightforward; however, >> the XML digital signature specification also supports message >> authentication codes (MACs). When MACs are used, the symmetric keys >> for the encryption and the MAC calculation need to use the same key >> management technique. When digital signatures are used, the recipient >> must have a way to verify the public key of the signer. This is >> usually done with a certificate. > >I believe the somewhat-negative wording on HMACs above should preclude any >need to add (probably-confusing) text about key management for HMACs. If >there is a community that wants to use HMACs, they can write up a document >on how to do secure key management for it in XMLDigSig. Okay, if the two previous comments associated with MACs are acceptable. >> Section 8.5 needs to be expanded. When digital signature or encryption >> are used, what threats do they protect against? > > Digital signatures provide authentication, message integrity, and > non-repudiation with proof of origin. Encryption provides data > confidentiality. Fine. Russ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 01 16:23:25 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DoS2n-0006kd-46 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 16:23:25 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA18009 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 16:23:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j61KDrTb006638; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:13:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j61KDrXS006637; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:13:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from carter-zimmerman.mit.edu (CARTER-ZIMMERMAN.MIT.EDU [18.18.3.197]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j61KDqMT006610; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:13:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hartmans@mit.edu) Received: by carter-zimmerman.mit.edu (Postfix, from userid 8042) id 3F110E0064; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 16:13:51 -0400 (EDT) To: Russ Housley Cc: Paul Hoffman , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Clearing a "discuss" vote on the Atom format References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050701150806.052dbc10@mail.binhost.com> From: Sam Hartman Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 16:13:51 -0400 In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050701150806.052dbc10@mail.binhost.com> (Russ Housley's message of "Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:20:40 -0400") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Paul, two points. For me to be happy, your specification must mandate that xmldsig be used whenever encryption is used. As a consequence of this and your decision not to support MACs, then in order to encrypt a document, you must sign it. In addition, in order to accept this encrypted document, the recipient must be able to verify your signature. Please confirm with the working group that these requirements are acceptable. In particular this forbids the case where I submit an entry encrypted to some third party who I don't share a PKI with. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 01 16:55:13 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DoSXW-0002LZ-DE for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 16:55:10 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA21128 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 16:55:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j61KjJR5039643; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:45:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j61KjJXj039642; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:45:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.193]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j61KjIvL039490 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:45:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 58so382540wri for ; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 13:45:13 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=SsbsU9iIWkMt3MrtQ+/P6Rn0w2xhY7AUgko8W6Or0MCtIlxZo2iGKHGYrCCUpKtBDlLy1stm+sGQPcg8SJ/h3pQr3L6pE0BLjf1f6E1KGHyTGVMNj6uMKVih4hGia7/ziISIzStm2Bt+TNQUobwNH6DtrEtYbuy4Jxp3UTFJGUs= Received: by 10.54.45.21 with SMTP id s21mr1883125wrs; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 13:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 6sm185653wrl.2005.07.01.13.45.12; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 13:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42C5AB53.9020900@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 13:45:07 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Hoffman CC: Atom WG , Russ Housley Subject: Re: Clearing a "discuss" vote on the Atom format References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Hoffman wrote: >> Unfortunately, the complexity of XML and the variety of contexts in >> which it is used made it impossible for the XMLDSIG WG to come up >> with one set of canonicalization rules that are "distinguished." >> By distinguished, I mean that there is exactly one way to represent >> the XML object. There are two canonicalization rule sets: the >> Canonical XML and the Exclusive XML Canonicalization. Specify >> which one is mandatory-to-implement. > > Section 5 does not provide sufficient detail for interoperability. > > To be added near the end of Section 5.1 of atompub-format: > > Section 6.5.1 of [W3C.REC-xmldsig-core-20020212] requires support > for Canonical XML. Atom Processors that sign Atom Documents MUST > use Canonical XML. Does this requirement restrict our ability to use exclusive c14n on individually signed entries within a feed document? If so, that's a definite problem. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 01 17:08:11 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DoSk4-00072Q-5A for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 17:08:11 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA22589 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 17:08:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j61KuVPi051024; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:56:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j61KuV09051023; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:56:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [63.249.99.114] (dsl2-63-249-92-231.cruzio.com [63.249.92.231]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j61KuMpq050906; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:56:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <42C5AB53.9020900@gmail.com> References: <42C5AB53.9020900@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:56:18 -0700 To: James M Snell From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: Clearing a "discuss" vote on the Atom format Cc: Atom WG , Russ Housley Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At 1:45 PM -0700 7/1/05, James M Snell wrote: >Paul Hoffman wrote: > >>> Unfortunately, the complexity of XML and the variety of contexts in >>> which it is used made it impossible for the XMLDSIG WG to come up >>> with one set of canonicalization rules that are "distinguished." >>> By distinguished, I mean that there is exactly one way to represent >>> the XML object. There are two canonicalization rule sets: the >>> Canonical XML and the Exclusive XML Canonicalization. Specify >>> which one is mandatory-to-implement. >> >> Section 5 does not provide sufficient detail for interoperability. >> >>To be added near the end of Section 5.1 of atompub-format: >> >> Section 6.5.1 of [W3C.REC-xmldsig-core-20020212] requires support >> for Canonical XML. Atom Processors that sign Atom Documents MUST >> use Canonical XML. > >Does this requirement restrict our ability to use exclusive c14n on >individually signed entries within a feed document? No and no. My new proposed wording is: Atom Processors that verify signed Atom Documents MUST be able to canonicalize with Canonical XML. That requires that a recipient, at a minimum, be able to handle messages that are canonicalized with Canonical XML. It does not limit the kinds of canonicalization that the sender can choose: it only says that the sender can only assume the recipient can do Canonical XML unless they have other out-of-band knowledge. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 01 17:19:31 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DoSv4-0003ej-Ll for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 17:19:30 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA23521 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 17:19:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j61L7cKB055611; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 14:07:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j61L7cpv055610; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 14:07:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.205]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j61L78BH055144 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 14:07:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 58so385658wri for ; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 14:07:02 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=fh3efyjkOR+jZd8SUcQxDIp7vN2m6VjiGyKjr13oZMDCNBPj9Cwpu0b1+/d48O4UKqEeUomzBmm+KCIeNeDyYvAJS4aWo1V64JtD57oU/GRscWN/upnrw+qoZWfPC5yi6r0wgilFgalPk482QdtIih6Alk3TQm0f9+NnV06wV6I= Received: by 10.54.3.17 with SMTP id 17mr1870219wrc; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 14:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 15sm278130wrl.2005.07.01.14.07.01; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 14:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42C5B071.2090506@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 14:06:57 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Hoffman CC: Atom WG , Russ Housley Subject: Re: Clearing a "discuss" vote on the Atom format References: <42C5AB53.9020900@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Hoffman wrote: >> Does this requirement restrict our ability to use exclusive c14n on >> individually signed entries within a feed document? > > > No and no. My new proposed wording is: > > Atom Processors that verify signed Atom Documents MUST > be able to canonicalize with Canonical XML. > > That requires that a recipient, at a minimum, be able to handle > messages that are canonicalized with Canonical XML. It does not limit > the kinds of canonicalization that the sender can choose: it only says > that the sender can only assume the recipient can do Canonical XML > unless they have other out-of-band knowledge. > > --Paul Hoffman, Director > --Internet Mail Consortium > Excellent. The new wording is definitely better. Another thing to throw out here: with this extended coverage on dsig, also adding a bit of information on how to handle signed entry envelopes would pretty much eliminate the need for me to produce a separate doc. There are basically only two remaining requirements: a. use of ex-c14n when signing individual entries within a feed and b. recommended inclusion of a source element in signed entries. What are your thoughts on including these in the changes? Is that possible / desirable at this point? - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 01 17:45:56 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DoTKd-0003Db-O7 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 17:45:56 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA26252 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 17:45:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j61LYdt4068060; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 14:34:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j61LYd3f068059; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 14:34:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [205.237.194.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j61LYRTa068012 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 14:34:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.3] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C36AA34DF for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 17:34:26 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v730) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: FWD: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-01.txt Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:40:06 -0700 To: Atom WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This draft is based on comments received; thanks to everyone. Major changes; * Removed 'this' link * Changed link syntax * Changed stateful syntax * Clarified difference between 'subscription' and 'archive' feeds (note that they're just for the purposes of clarity in this spec) * Added a bit to the state reconstruction process description * Added examples I've also modified my personal blog feed to demonstrate how this would be published; see http://www.mnot.net/blog/index.rdf Note that this uses a temporary namespace (none is yet in the spec) and is implemented completely in vanilla Moveable Type 2.x templates. Comments and suggestions welcome as always, > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > > > Title : Feed History: Enabling Stateful Syndication > Author(s) : M. Nottingham > Filename : draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-01.txt > Pages : 10 > Date : 2005-7-1 > > This document specifies mechanisms that allow feed publishers to give > hints about the nature of the feed's statefulness, and a means of > retrieving "missed" entries from a stateful feed. > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nottingham-atompub-feed- > history-01.txt > > To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to > i-d-announce-request at ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the > body of the message. > You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce > to change your subscription settings. > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the > username > "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, > type "cd internet-drafts" and then > "get draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-01.txt". > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > > Send a message to: > mailserv at ietf.org. > In the body type: > "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-nottingham-atompub-feed- > history-01.txt". > > NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > command. To decode the response(s), you will need > "munpack" or > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant > mail readers > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been > split > up into multiple messages), so check your local > documentation on > how to manipulate these messages. > > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the > Internet-Draft. > history-01.txt> -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 02 03:07:42 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Doc6H-0000HM-H5 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 02 Jul 2005 03:07:41 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA13321 for ; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 03:07:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j626waxN018458; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:58:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j626waCb018457; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:58:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web42201.mail.yahoo.com (web42201.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j626wZ2B018399 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:58:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jfcst24_public@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 24566 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Jul 2005 06:58:30 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=jFC1UXB3s4lMaAXuXnXlbuHEQb3/nhus+jtix2hkWKOGYKchkoU9Ju1kvvRq4Zvtw/jvW8QEPy5kpKDd5v8mT0ltI8zVKNFPNXHaofZZdTgaPXRV0YiV3TLuVY8vrMkzwwdvhTahzM9Iki+OuBpYFxlqNNOFbm6h7oyQ2iB2i4I= ; Message-ID: <20050702065830.24564.qmail@web42201.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.155.69.133] by web42201.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 23:58:30 PDT Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:58:30 -0700 (PDT) From: James Cerra Subject: Re: Clearing a "discuss" vote on the Atom format To: Paul Hoffman , James M Snell Cc: Atom WG , Russ Housley In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Paul Hoffman wrote: > No and no. My new proposed wording is: > > Atom Processors that verify signed Atom Documents MUST > be able to canonicalize with Canonical XML. > > That requires that a recipient, at a minimum, be able to handle > messages that are canonicalized with Canonical XML. It does not limit > the kinds of canonicalization that the sender can choose: it only > says that the sender can only assume the recipient can do Canonical > XML unless they have other out-of-band knowledge. Why not add that entire explanation to the section as well? I understand specs should be concise, but that really clarifies the meaning and some of the intended concequences of the statement. -- Jimmy Cerra https://nemo.dev.java.net ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 02 04:59:39 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dodqc-0001Kw-Sa for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 02 Jul 2005 04:59:39 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA22804 for ; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 04:59:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j628pLAd071541; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 01:51:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j628pLAR071540; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 01:51:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mailhost.netweaver.net (mailhost.netweaver.net [213.160.118.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j628pJZv071504 for ; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 01:51:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davep@dpawson.co.uk) Received: (qmail 3758 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2005 08:51:18 -0000 Received: from dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk (HELO ?192.168.2.7?) (davep@dpawson.co.uk@81.6.251.105) by 0 with SMTP; 2 Jul 2005 08:51:18 -0000 Subject: Re: Clearing a "discuss" vote on the Atom format From: Dave Pawson Reply-To: davep@dpawson.co.uk To: Sam Hartman Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050701150806.052dbc10@mail.binhost.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 09:51:17 +0100 Message-Id: <1120294277.3687.4.camel@marge> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.2 (2.2.2-5) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 16:13 -0400, Sam Hartman wrote: > Paul, two points. > > For me to be happy, your specification must mandate that xmldsig be > used whenever encryption is used. > > As a consequence of this and your decision not to support MACs, then > in order to encrypt a document, you must sign it. In addition, in > order to accept this encrypted document, the recipient must be able to > verify your signature. > > Please confirm with the working group that these requirements are > acceptable. In particular this forbids the case where I submit an > entry encrypted to some third party who I don't share a PKI with. An aweful lot of 'must's there Sam, for one persons view? I see no reason to using signing, just because I choose to encrypt? Sounds a bit too corner case for my liking. DaveP From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 02 13:10:33 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DolVh-0000mR-Jy for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 02 Jul 2005 13:10:33 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA08844 for ; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 13:10:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j62H2IgG089626; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 10:02:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j62H2ImK089606; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 10:02:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.205]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j62H2GUB089546 for ; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 10:02:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id q3so264350nzb for ; Sat, 02 Jul 2005 10:02:11 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=NheRCvCMzpbRKK4mSKx2T51E0vkSfJY/JTsmedFP1uqN9Nrfn0Y2AldFSRU3pPo/OJ+/aBs8xJncX+MyYWfcurw7YcdAi7iJ+1n9ZCFoe0kneNMMfJqpjZ3qiIYhcCuX9IUe/3nmEsH4FmExHjrI4DdNNTlM11aU8+tsbB99vpQ= Received: by 10.36.129.6 with SMTP id b6mr1036302nzd; Sat, 02 Jul 2005 10:02:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.47.13 with HTTP; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 10:02:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd05070210022b4ba30e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 19:02:11 +0200 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Atom WG Subject: Re: Clearing a "discuss" vote on the Atom format In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <6.0.0.20.2.20050701164010.08ef60a0@localhost> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j62H2HUB089577 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit +1 to Paul's suggestions, with the adjustments as suggested, worded as the editors feel comfortable. Without deployment of signed Atom to draw on this is unlikely to be perfect. Just do whatever it takes to satisfy the "discuss". -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 04 16:02:36 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DpX9I-0007Gv-Jn for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Jul 2005 16:02:36 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA05029 for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 16:02:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j64JuCuF023594; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 12:56:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j64JuCtb023593; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 12:56:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mailrelay.t-mobile.com (m6f195e42.tmodns.net [66.94.25.111]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j64JuBli023576; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 12:56:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay.t-mobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F33399E2; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 15:56:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailrelay.t-mobile.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mailrelay.t-mobile.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27797-04; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 15:56:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from IBMC101DE8DFED (unknown [10.250.67.170]) by mailrelay.t-mobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 15:56:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <009001c580d2$67e51100$aa43fa0a@IBMC101DE8DFED> From: "Bob Wyman" To: "James M Snell" , "Paul Hoffman" Cc: "Atom WG" , "Russ Housley" References: <42C5AB53.9020900@gmail.com> <42C5B071.2090506@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Clearing a "discuss" vote on the Atom format Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 15:55:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James M Snell wrote: > b. recommended inclusion of a source element in signed entries. +1 bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 04 18:28:44 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DpZQi-00059T-0A for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Jul 2005 18:28:44 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA27147 for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 18:28:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j64MHmkM035006; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 15:17:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j64MHm7q035005; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 15:17:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf01.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.68]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j64MHkse034995 for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 15:17:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.5.35.195]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6CFA31840A; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 00:17:40 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <42C9B5C6.1030802@cegetel.net> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 00:18:46 +0200 From: Thomas Broyer User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: fr, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Atom WG Subject: Re: FWD: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-01.txt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Nottingham wrote: > > This draft is based on comments received; thanks to everyone. Major > changes; > > * Removed 'this' link > * Changed link syntax > * Changed stateful syntax > * Clarified difference between 'subscription' and 'archive' feeds > (note that they're just for the purposes of clarity in this spec) > * Added a bit to the state reconstruction process description > * Added examples Really good work! > Comments and suggestions welcome as always, Why not using an xs:boolean for fh:stateful? hence allowing values 0, 1, true and false. With the -01 draft (it might have been the same within the -00 one too), one can't reuse the process to link to archives of "Top Twenty Records" or "Most Popular Items" (e.g. a monthly "Top Twenty Records" linking to the previous-month "Top"), because of the "a subscription document whose fh:stateful element contains "false" MUST NOT contain a fh:prev element". Why not just stating that if fh:stateful is false then the "prev"-linked archive feed doesn't not contain a subset of the previous entries but rather does contain the previous state of the subscription feed. I.e. the meaning of the fh:prev "link" depends on the value of fh:stateful. Also, shouldn't there be a note to invite producers to provide an atom:link@rel="self" referencing the subscription feed? I also repeat my proposal for an identifier different from an URI for a reader/aggregator to know whether it has already retrieved an archive document, e.g. using the "updated" date-time of the "fh:prev"-linked archive feed. Example: Example Feed 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z John Doe urn:uuid:60a76c80-d399-11d9-b93C-0003939e0af6 true http://example.org/2003/11/index.atom Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok urn:uuid:1225c695-cfb8-4ebb-aaaa-80da344efa6a 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z Some text in a new, fresh entry. If I retrieved the feed between 2003-11-24T12:00:00Z and 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z, the fh:prev URI were probably equal to http://example.org/2003/10/index.atom (october, not november). However, I didn't miss any entry. Using the fh:prev@updated value, I can know that I didn't miss any entry and that I then don't need to dereference http://example.org/2003/11/index.atom (november, the "new" fh:prev URI) -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 04 22:07:04 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dpcq0-0001Q5-M8 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Jul 2005 22:07:04 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA25115 for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 22:07:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j651xJbV052803; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 18:59:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j651xJeu052802; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 18:59:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [63.249.99.114] (dsl2-63-249-92-231.cruzio.com [63.249.92.231]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j651x7T2052782; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 18:59:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 18:59:01 -0700 To: Atom WG From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 Cc: Russ Housley , Sam Hartman Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Greetings again. The "clearing a discuss" thread has been productive, but the proposed wording has changed a few times. Here is what I suggest is good final wording that covers the issues brought up. Comments are welcome. 5. Securing Atom Documents Because Atom is an XML-based format, existing XML security mechanisms can be used to secure its content. [[ NEW ]] Producers of feeds and/or entries, and intermediaries who aggregate feeds and/or entries, may have sound business reasons for signing and/or encrypting otherwise-unprotected content. For example, a merchant might digitally sign a message that contains a discount coupon for its products. A bank that uses Atom to deliver customer statements is very likely to want to sign and encrypt those messages to protect their customers' financial information and to assure the customer of their authenticity. Intermediaries may want to encrypt aggregated feeds so that a passive observer cannot tell what topics the recipient is interested in. Of course, many other examples exist as well. [[ NEW ]] The algorithm requirements in this section pertain to the Atom Processor. They require that a recipient, at a minimum, be able to handle messages that use the specified cryptographic algorithms. This does not limit the algorithms that the sender can choose: it only says that the sender can only assume the recipient can use the named algorithms unless they have other out-of-band knowledge. 5.1 Digital Signatures The root of an Atom document (i.e., atom:feed in an Atom Feed Document, atom:entry in an Atom Entry Document) MAY have an Enveloped Signature, as described by XML-Signature and Syntax Processing [W3C.REC-xmldsig-core-20020212]. Atom Processors MUST NOT reject an Atom Document containing such a signature because they are not capable of verifying it; they MUST continue processing and MAY inform the user of their failure to validate the signature. In other words, the presence of an element with the namespace URI "http://www.w3.org/2000/09/xmldsig#" and a local name of "Signature" as a child of the document element MUST NOT cause an Atom Processor to fail merely because of its presence. Other elements in an Atom Document MUST NOT be signed unless their definitions explicitly specify such a capability. [[ NEW ]] Section 6.5.1 of [W3C.REC-xmldsig-core-20020212] requires support for Canonical XML. Atom Processors that verify signed Atom Documents MUST be able to canonicalize with Canonical XML. [[ NEW ]] Section 4.4.2 of [W3C.REC-xmldsig-core-20020212] requires support for DSA signatures and recommends support for RSA signatures. However, because of the much greater popularity in the market of RSA versus DSA, Atom Processors that verify signed Atom Documents MUST be able to verify RSA signatures, but do not need be able to verify DSA signatures. Due to security issues that can arise if the keying material for MAC authentication is not handled properly, Atom documents SHOULD NOT use MACs for signatures. 5.2 Encryption The root of an Atom Document (i.e., atom:feed in an Atom Feed Document, atom:entry in an Atom Entry Document) MAY be encrypted, using the mechanisms described by XML Encryption Syntax and Processing [W3C.REC-xmlenc-core-20021210]. [[ NEW ]] Section 5.1 of [W3C.REC-xmlenc-core-20021210] requires support of TripleDES, AES-128, and AES-256. Atom Processors that decrypt Atom Documents MUST be able to decrypt with AES-128 in CBC mode. [[ NEW ]] Encryption based on [W3C.REC-xmlenc-core-20021210] does not assure integrity of the original document. There are known cryptographic attacks where someone who cannot decrypt a message can still change bits in a way where part or all the decrypted message makes sense but has a different meaning. Thus, Atom Processors that decrypt Atom Documents SHOULD check the integrity of the decrypted document by verifying the hash in the signature (if any) in the document, or by verifying a hash of the document within the document (if any). [[ NEW ]] 5.3 Signing and Encrypting [[ NEW ]] When an Atom Document is to be both signed and encrypted, it is generally a good idea to first sign the document, then encrypt the signed document. This provides integrity to the base document while encrypting all the information, including the identity of the entity that signed the document. Note that, if MACs are used for authentication, the order MUST be that the signed document is encrypted, and not the other way around. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 04 22:46:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DpdRn-0000qI-TT for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Jul 2005 22:46:08 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA29744 for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 22:46:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j652ci82056605; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 19:38:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j652cinu056604; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 19:38:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.pubsub.com (mail.pubsub.com [209.11.36.150]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j652cixO056584; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 19:38:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from IBMC101DE8DFED (cpe-68-174-167-137.nyc.res.rr.com [68.174.167.137]) by mail.pubsub.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01B9A72404D; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 22:38:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00ef01c5810a$a4819920$aa43fa0a@IBMC101DE8DFED> From: "Bob Wyman" To: "Atom WG" , "Paul Hoffman" Cc: "Russ Housley" , "Sam Hartman" References: Subject: Re: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 22:38:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe it would be very useful to specify that signed entries should include a source element. This can/should be considered part of entry canonicalization. The reason I suggest this is that signed entries are only really useful when extracted from their original source feeds. If entries are only read from their source feeds, then it is probably best for publishers to sign the feed, not the individual entries. (Note: It is my hope that feed publishers will anticipate that their entries will be extracted from the source feeds and will thus sign the individual entries rather than the feeds... i.e. Publishers should anticipate that intermediaries like PubSub and various other search/discovery services will aggregate their entries and republish them in non-source feeds.) When an entry is removed from its source, it SHOULD have a source element inserted if one is not already present. However, if a republisher inserts a source element into a signed entry that would break the signature. Thus, it seems reasonable that we should strongly encourage those who sign entries to anticipate the needs of subsequent processors by inserting the source elements in the original signed entries. By inserting the source elements, the requirement for others to break the signature will be drastically reduced. If an entry is signed, yet contains no source element, much of the utility of the signature (allowing verification of the original publisher) is eliminated. bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 00:48:24 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DpfM8-0000UT-K7 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 00:48:24 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA16259 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 00:48:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j654fFbF065938; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 21:41:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j654fFfV065937; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 21:41:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j654fCEH065904; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 21:41:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j654fC8t024524; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 22:41:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IJ500GE110N8F@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM>; Mon, 04 Jul 2005 22:41:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.202.7]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IJ5001WR10M5Q@mail.sun.net>; Mon, 04 Jul 2005 22:41:11 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 21:41:24 -0700 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 In-reply-to: <00ef01c5810a$a4819920$aa43fa0a@IBMC101DE8DFED> To: Bob Wyman Cc: Atom WG , Paul Hoffman , Russ Housley , Sam Hartman Message-id: <44746620-F948-4CA2-9F20-E11EB2ED3661@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 References: <00ef01c5810a$a4819920$aa43fa0a@IBMC101DE8DFED> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Jul 4, 2005, at 7:38 PM, Bob Wyman wrote: > > I believe it would be very useful to specify that signed entries > should include a source element. This can/should be considered > part of entry canonicalization. -1. Leave it to the market. I suspect that you're right, but I'd be unsurprised if an application for signed un-sourced applications turned up. -Tim > The reason I suggest this is that signed entries are only really > useful when extracted from their original source feeds. If entries > are only read from their source feeds, then it is probably best for > publishers to sign the feed, not the individual entries. (Note: It > is my hope that feed publishers will anticipate that their entries > will be extracted from the source feeds and will thus sign the > individual entries rather than the feeds... i.e. Publishers should > anticipate that intermediaries like PubSub and various other search/ > discovery services will aggregate their entries and republish them > in non-source feeds.) > When an entry is removed from its source, it SHOULD have a > source element inserted if one is not already present. However, if > a republisher inserts a source element into a signed entry that > would break the signature. Thus, it seems reasonable that we should > strongly encourage those who sign entries to anticipate the needs > of subsequent processors by inserting the source elements in the > original signed entries. By inserting the source elements, the > requirement for others to break the signature will be drastically > reduced. If an entry is signed, yet contains no source element, > much of the utility of the signature (allowing verification of the > original publisher) is eliminated. > > bob wyman > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 10:10:40 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dpo8G-0005hj-9D for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 10:10:40 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA26644 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:10:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65E2Cek074108; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 07:02:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65E2C9r074107; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 07:02:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bork.markbaker.ca (static-80-155.dsl.cuic.ca [216.126.80.155] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65E2A8w074099 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 07:02:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from distobj@acm.org) Received: from mbaker by bork.markbaker.ca with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1Dpo15-0007mS-00 for ; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 10:03:15 -0400 Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:03:14 -0400 From: Mark Baker To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Old application/atom+xml issues Message-ID: <20050705140314.GW29203@markbaker.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: I wanted to point out that comments I've made on the application/atom+xml media type registration template have not yet been incorporated into the syntax draft, nor have I received any feedback about why they needn't be. These are not show-stoppers by any means, but are also not exactly insignificant IMO. The comments are; http://eikenes.alvestrand.no/pipermail/ietf-types/2005-April/000713.html http://eikenes.alvestrand.no/pipermail/ietf-types/2005-April/000678.html (the former was sent to the IESG, but again, I received no feedback) Cheers, Mark. -- Mark Baker. Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA. http://www.markbaker.ca Coactus; Web-inspired integration strategies http://www.coactus.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 10:31:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DpoS6-0001in-NY for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 10:31:10 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA00212 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:31:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65EJQIU075431; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 07:19:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65EJQYN075430; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 07:19:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j65EJOF5075413 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 07:19:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 05 Jul 2005 14:19:14 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-249-82.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.249.82] by mail.gmx.net (mp013) with SMTP; 05 Jul 2005 16:19:14 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:23:21 +0200 From: "A.Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-00.txt Message-ID: <20050705142320.GA4134@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <097CC973-BC19-4838-9076-019A9FD614EC@mnot.net> <1f2ed5cd05062901577845007@mail.gmail.com> <788DD8A0-45CB-4E6F-8E36-B13184D009B7@mnot.net> <42C2D5E0.10205@gmail.com> <7B9235E7-4FB3-4EE1-84B6-A242A1AA0575@mnot.net> <20050701122841.GF12311@klangraum> <870B5867-AC32-4DF7-98DD-F37BC346B690@mnot.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <870B5867-AC32-4DF7-98DD-F37BC346B690@mnot.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id KAA00212 * Mark Nottingham [2005-07-01 20:55]: > How do you figure that? HTTP delta encoding is a generic > mechanism layered into HTTP; if you do a bare GET against a > resource, the server has to return the whole representation. >=20 > [=E2=80=A6]=20 >=20 > Where does it talk about this in RFC3229? A delta-capable > intermediary is going to be completely unaware of this, and > very likely to return erroneous responses. I pored over the RFC now (I had only given it a brief look in the context of RFC3229+feed discussion before) and see that what I wrote is utterly bunk. Sorry. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 10:42:01 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dpoca-0007pi-Ts for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 10:42:01 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA02618 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:41:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65EX67J076524; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 07:33:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65EX6aI076523; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 07:33:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.198]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65EX5S5076509 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 07:33:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i36so845035wra for ; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 07:33:00 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=YPCTdXw99MnMK9s7a1rZXN8ts13/fl82zROoCa/E8wIFzkujpHjBeF4zWw7hSZ4lgAtZOp3L341GwF82lKM115ZiCyV14w/0qrKQmAqRhl1r/25GeMIElvpWDkEOqa9KqPqM2UeKL5AeQd73gSWJb8fqthB4DQbpg/QN4j398NU= Received: by 10.54.50.44 with SMTP id x44mr4665716wrx; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 07:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.71.13 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 07:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c5050705073343e8a991@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:33:00 -0400 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: Robert Sayre To: Mark Baker Subject: Re: Old application/atom+xml issues Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <20050705140314.GW29203@markbaker.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050705140314.GW29203@markbaker.ca> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j65EX6S5076518 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/5/05, Mark Baker wrote: > > I wanted to point out that comments I've made on the > application/atom+xml media type registration template have not yet been > incorporated into the syntax draft, nor have I received any feedback > about why they needn't be. See comments from Tim here: http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg14423.html Sorry you didn't get direct feedback. :/ Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 11:38:23 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DppV9-0007dk-A3 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 11:38:23 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA10914 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:38:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65FSa0w082106; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 08:28:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65FSail082105; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 08:28:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [63.249.99.114] (dsl2-63-249-92-231.cruzio.com [63.249.92.231]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65FSGHY082073; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 08:28:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <44746620-F948-4CA2-9F20-E11EB2ED3661@sun.com> References: <00ef01c5810a$a4819920$aa43fa0a@IBMC101DE8DFED> <44746620-F948-4CA2-9F20-E11EB2ED3661@sun.com> Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 08:19:36 -0700 To: Tim Bray , Bob Wyman From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 Cc: Atom WG , Russ Housley , Sam Hartman Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At 9:41 PM -0700 7/4/05, Tim Bray wrote: >On Jul 4, 2005, at 7:38 PM, Bob Wyman wrote: > >> >> I believe it would be very useful to specify that signed entries >>should include a source element. This can/should be considered >>part of entry canonicalization. > >-1. Leave it to the market. I suspect that you're right, but I'd >be unsurprised if an application for signed un-sourced applications >turned up. -Tim I'm with Tim on the -1. Bob's suggestion and explanation make good sense for the implementer's guide, but not for the base spec. There is not an interoperability issue that I can see for entries without sources being signed. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 12:07:13 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dppx3-0005XQ-88 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:07:13 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA14983 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:07:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65Fx6vV085374; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 08:59:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65Fx6ix085371; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 08:59:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.pubsub.com (mail.pubsub.com [209.11.36.150]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65Fx6iD085358; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 08:59:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bobwyman@pubsub.com) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.pubsub.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C1197242C8; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:59:00 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Paul Hoffman'" , "'Tim Bray'" Cc: "'Atom WG'" Subject: RE: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:58:54 -0400 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcWBdj0IRwIp5osCSW2gm6b5dCUizwAAyC6w Message-Id: <20050705155900.1C1197242C8@mail.pubsub.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Hoffman wrote: > I'm with Tim on the -1. Bob's suggestion and explanation make > good sense for the implementer's guide, but not for the base spec. > There is not an interoperability issue that I can see for entries > without sources being signed. Could we at least put in a sentence that states that including a source element in signed entries is recommended? The implementer's guide would then expand on that with more detail, discussion, etc. Note: I am not suggesting use of the "should" word, although I would like it. We can debate what it means to have an "interoperability" issue, however, my personal feeling is that if systems are forced to break and discard signatures in order to perform usual and customary processing on entries that falls very close to the realm of interoperability if not within it. Deferring this issue until the implementer's guide is written is likely to defer it beyond the point at which common practice is established. The result is likely to be that intermediaries and aggregators end up discarding most signatures that appear in source feeds. bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 12:20:23 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dpq9n-0001fV-A7 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:20:23 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA16868 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:20:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65GBRIM086333; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:11:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65GBRDT086332; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:11:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65GBQm3086316; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:11:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65GBP8t006910; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:11:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IJ500MLAWZ1VD@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM>; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 10:11:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.102.100] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IJ50017AWZ05T@mail.sun.net>; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 10:11:25 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 09:11:40 -0700 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 In-reply-to: <20050705155900.1C1197242C8@mail.pubsub.com> To: bobwyman@pubsub.com Cc: "'Paul Hoffman'" , "'Atom WG'" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20050705155900.1C1197242C8@mail.pubsub.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Jul 5, 2005, at 8:58 AM, Bob Wyman wrote: > We can debate what it means to have an "interoperability" issue, > however, my personal feeling is that if systems are forced to break > and > discard signatures in order to perform usual and customary > processing on > entries that falls very close to the realm of interoperability if > not within > it. Deferring this issue until the implementer's guide is written > is likely > to defer it beyond the point at which common practice is > established. The > result is likely to be that intermediaries and aggregators end up > discarding > most signatures that appear in source feeds. Huh?! Pardon my ignorance, could you please provide an explanation for the simple-minded as to how the absence of a source element in a signed entry will lead to signatures being discarded? Also, it would be helpful to sketch in some of the surrounding scenario... -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 12:20:26 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dpq9p-0001fh-TF for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:20:26 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA16886 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:20:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65G9wVX086242; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:09:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65G9wHR086241; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:09:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [63.249.99.114] (dsl2-63-249-92-231.cruzio.com [63.249.92.231]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65G9hnZ086214; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:09:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20050705155900.1C1197242C8@mail.pubsub.com> References: <20050705155900.1C1197242C8@mail.pubsub.com> Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:09:40 -0700 To: , "'Tim Bray'" From: Paul Hoffman Subject: RE: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 Cc: "'Atom WG'" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At 11:58 AM -0400 7/5/05, Bob Wyman wrote: > Could we at least put in a sentence that states that including a >source element in signed entries is recommended? The implementer's guide >would then expand on that with more detail, discussion, etc. It's quite late to do this. The IESG is looking at a particular version of the draft, and are making comments on that particular version. It is really important that we only make changes based on IESG members' input, not on yet-more things we find. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 12:25:23 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DpqEd-0006D5-9O for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:25:23 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA17295 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:25:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65GGKPl086713; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:16:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65GGK7l086712; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:16:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65GGJd6086698 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:16:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id a41so864031rng for ; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 09:16:19 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Lmrl+8XglfClcxroekYbEwMRuRPpLnCnHIwW3Uzb5qPyKO2dWEf7G5PXETrb565t1H2D4piV/j0ZlDFmus4grOcNhDgBlVswxtonuH2jjzz+kSltuW4CwLiQC9rM4Kv4xgMq8JhnY2iNzLq3lwi3kjgsIiK/OmOP4Etgi4qjivY= Received: by 10.38.151.38 with SMTP id y38mr4128961rnd; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 09:16:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id c3sm4835544rne.2005.07.05.09.16.18; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 09:16:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42CAB243.9050504@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 09:16:03 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Hoffman CC: Atom WG , Russ Housley , Sam Hartman Subject: Re: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Hoffman wrote: > > The root of an Atom document (i.e., atom:feed in an Atom Feed > Document, atom:entry in an Atom Entry Document) MAY have an Enveloped > Signature, as described by XML-Signature and Syntax Processing > [W3C.REC-xmldsig-core-20020212]. Are we going to be making the change specified in point 1 of [1] ? That is, specifically allow for Signature on any atom:entry element? The root of an Atom document (i.e., atom:feed in an Atom Feed Document, atom:entry in an Atom Entry Document), or any atom:entry element, MAY have an Enveloped Signature, as described by XML-Signature and Syntax Processing [W3C.REC-xmldsig-core-20020212] [1] http://www.mail-archive.com/atom-syntax@mail.imc.org/msg04288.html - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 12:33:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DpqM9-0000nw-0x for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:33:09 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA18830 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:33:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65GLAOb087090; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:21:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65GLAcp087089; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:21:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bork.markbaker.ca (static-80-155.dsl.cuic.ca [216.126.80.155] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65GL9XP087080 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:21:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from distobj@acm.org) Received: from mbaker by bork.markbaker.ca with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1DpqBZ-0008As-00; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:22:13 -0400 Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:22:13 -0400 From: Mark Baker To: Robert Sayre Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org, ietf-types@alvestrand.no Subject: Re: Old application/atom+xml issues Message-ID: <20050705162213.GX29203@markbaker.ca> References: <20050705140314.GW29203@markbaker.ca> <68fba5c5050705073343e8a991@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <68fba5c5050705073343e8a991@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Tue, Jul 05, 2005 at 10:33:00AM -0400, Robert Sayre wrote: > On 7/5/05, Mark Baker wrote: > > > > I wanted to point out that comments I've made on the > > application/atom+xml media type registration template have not yet been > > incorporated into the syntax draft, nor have I received any feedback > > about why they needn't be. > > See comments from Tim here: > http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg14423.html > > Sorry you didn't get direct feedback. :/ Ah, I should have thought to check the archives, thanks. It should have gone to ietf-types though, since that's where public review of media type registrations happen and where my comments were sent. I've CCd ietf-types on this message. Tim writes; > He's got a point on the namespace being mentioned, which creates some > semi-circular dependencies, sigh. As to whether it's currently in use, > largely due to lobbying from us, recent releases of both Apache and > IIS tie the application/atom+xml media type to the .atom extension, so > if people are creating 0.3 files and calling them whatever.atom, this > could be right. Having said that, I think we should push back. Because > any such current usage is unlicensed by any spec, & because we plan to > aggressively deprecate Atom 0.3 once we get 1.0 out and since I > suspect that 90% of 0.3 feeds come from one place we should have some > success. IMO, it matters not that no spec prescribes the use of this media type for Atom 0.3 feeds. What matters is whether it's in use today, which we seem to agree is the case. This seems an important piece of information that implementors should know, which is my motivation for asking that it be called out in the "interoperability considerations" section of the template. Something like; Interoperability considerations: Some existing agents and feeds that support the Atom 0.3 specification, make use of this media type despite Atom 0.3 not being compatible with Atom 1.0. As for the magic number, to keep it simple I'd suggest that none be defined by removing the "magic number" section. Cheers, Mark. -- Mark Baker. Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA. http://www.markbaker.ca Coactus; Web-inspired integration strategies http://www.coactus.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 12:34:34 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DpqNW-0001IU-2q for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:34:34 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA18927 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:34:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65GRZ5Z087782; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:27:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65GRZ8W087781; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:27:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.198]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65GRY0J087761 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:27:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id a41so866051rng for ; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 09:27:33 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=RiS8zA3ZZ9DAOfDSV1EYeSaFLr3jYbhWSGtD1xXx0Oh+7KkWZcbXznwvs1WeRGwMRx3jVafUKOPVjh0HLSa7Z+Wpf5EHHgmKGl5PEDqzj7pa2mQuyfb+LiujkNMoYyZ315l7gCi9ag+Nmxv9i/b0fqq9SXojLIBqDXZpKJegMlE= Received: by 10.38.149.56 with SMTP id w56mr4131217rnd; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 09:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id g2sm4817965rne.2005.07.05.09.27.32; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 09:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42CAB4E6.8080600@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 09:27:18 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Bray CC: bobwyman@pubsub.com, "'Paul Hoffman'" , "'Atom WG'" Subject: Re: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 References: <20050705155900.1C1197242C8@mail.pubsub.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > > On Jul 5, 2005, at 8:58 AM, Bob Wyman wrote: > >> We can debate what it means to have an "interoperability" issue, >> however, my personal feeling is that if systems are forced to break and >> discard signatures in order to perform usual and customary >> processing on >> entries that falls very close to the realm of interoperability if >> not within >> it. Deferring this issue until the implementer's guide is written is >> likely >> to defer it beyond the point at which common practice is >> established. The >> result is likely to be that intermediaries and aggregators end up >> discarding >> most signatures that appear in source feeds. > > > Huh?! Pardon my ignorance, could you please provide an explanation > for the simple-minded as to how the absence of a source element in a > signed entry will lead to signatures being discarded? Also, it would > be helpful to sketch in some of the surrounding scenario... -Tim > > Bob can clarify exactly what he means but from my perspective it comes down to an aggregation problem. If a signature is generated over an entry that does not contain an author element or a source element, that entry cannot be re-enveloped into an aggregate feed that does not contain a top level author element without breaking the signature as the intermediary would have to insert either the author element or the source element with author in order to produce compliant Atom. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 12:35:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DpqO5-0001d8-A2 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:35:09 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA19023 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:35:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65GSnDh087896; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:28:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65GSndC087895; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:28:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [63.249.99.114] (dsl2-63-249-92-231.cruzio.com [63.249.92.231]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65GSbpf087861; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:28:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <42CAB243.9050504@gmail.com> References: <42CAB243.9050504@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:28:34 -0700 To: James M Snell From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 Cc: Atom WG , Russ Housley , Sam Hartman Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At 9:16 AM -0700 7/5/05, James M Snell wrote: >Are we going to be making the change specified in point 1 of [1] ? >That is, specifically allow for Signature on any atom:entry element? Yipes! Good catch. That was my mistake. I rolled-up from one thread, not both of them. The beginning of 5.1 in the roll-up should have read: 5.1 Digital Signatures [[ CHANGED ]] The root of an Atom document (i.e., atom:feed in an Atom Feed Document, atom:entry in an Atom Entry Document), or any atom:entry element, MAY have an Enveloped Signature, as described by XML-Signature and Syntax Processing [W3C.REC-xmldsig-core-20020212]. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 12:58:54 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dpql4-0008Qw-CR for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:58:54 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA22767 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:58:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6593tWZ069882; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 02:03:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6593tGf069881; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 02:03:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from osl1smout1.broadpark.no (osl1smout1.broadpark.no [80.202.4.58]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6593ski069834; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 02:03:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from osl1sminn1.broadpark.no ([80.202.4.59]) by osl1smout1.broadpark.no (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.05 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IJ500DAID7LBQ30@osl1smout1.broadpark.no>; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 11:04:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from quark ([84.48.117.231]) by osl1sminn1.broadpark.no (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.05 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IJ500IQ4DC9H3U0@osl1sminn1.broadpark.no>; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 11:07:21 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 11:06:04 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Subject: Re: The atom:uri element In-reply-to: <20050628012119.50079.qmail@web42207.mail.yahoo.com> To: James Cerra , Paul Hoffman Cc: Atom-Syntax Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 References: <20050628012119.50079.qmail@web42207.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/8.01 (Win32, build 7642) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id MAA22767 On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:21:19 +0200, James Cerra =20 wrote: > I knew that, but I was unaware of how un-updatable a step that was. I > apologize for my ignorance. The same goes for me. > No. I thought that there was room for updates to the draft during IESG > consideration. That stemmed from unwarranted assumptions on my part, =20 > though. Same here. > On the other hand, if the spec is sent back by the IESG for other reaso= ns > then I suggest revisiting this issue. That sounds like a good idea. --=20 Asbj=F8rn Ulsberg -=3D|=3D- http://virtuelvis.com/quark/ =ABHe's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away=BB From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 13:04:00 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dpqpg-00039f-Mw for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:03:41 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA23456 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:03:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65Gsnbk090694; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:54:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65Gsn42090693; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:54:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65GsnAv090683 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:54:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2005070516544301100lroqoe>; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:54:43 +0000 Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:54:42 -0600 Subject: Re: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <7B52EA23-ED75-11D9-8204-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, July 5, 2005, at 10:11 AM, Tim Bray wrote: > On Jul 5, 2005, at 8:58 AM, Bob Wyman wrote: >> We can debate what it means to have an "interoperability" issue, >> however, my personal feeling is that if systems are forced to break >> and >> discard signatures in order to perform usual and customary processing >> on >> entries that falls very close to the realm of interoperability if not >> within >> it. Deferring this issue until the implementer's guide is written is >> likely >> to defer it beyond the point at which common practice is established. >> The >> result is likely to be that intermediaries and aggregators end up >> discarding >> most signatures that appear in source feeds. > > Huh?! Pardon my ignorance, could you please provide an explanation > for the simple-minded as to how the absence of a source element in a > signed entry will lead to signatures being discarded? Also, it would > be helpful to sketch in some of the surrounding scenario... -Tim If a signed entry doesn't have a source element and an aggregator inserts one, the signature will be broken--thus the aggregator will either discard the signature or republish the entry with a broken signature. Perhaps language like this would work without being too much of a change at this late date: "When signing individual entries that do not contain an atom:source element, be aware that aggregators inserting an atom:source element will be unable to retain the signature. For this reason, publishers might consider including an atom:source element in all individually signed entries." From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 13:25:00 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DprAK-0000WM-La for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:25:00 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA26653 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:24:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65HEaCf093014; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:14:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65HEaRq093013; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:14:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.pubsub.com (mail.pubsub.com [209.11.36.150]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65HEafY092996; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:14:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bobwyman@pubsub.com) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.pubsub.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87CF372446C; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:14:30 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: , "'James M Snell'" Cc: "'Paul Hoffman'" , "'Atom WG'" Subject: RE: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:14:28 -0400 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcWBghGLeibNoZtjSCK3wIO3bierBgAAXUcg Message-Id: <20050705171430.87CF372446C@mail.pubsub.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > If I want to sign an entry and also want to make it available > for aggregation then yes, I'd better put in an atom:source. But > this is inherent in the basic definition of digsig; not something > we need to call out. -Tim Certainly, the chain of reasoning is as clear and logical as you describe. However, it is also very clear that this is precisely the sort of multi-step chain of reasoning that is often overlooked by even the most earnest of implementers. We have many, many indications that significant numbers of RSS/Atom implementers do not, in fact, think much beyond what it takes to get their content into a file. Even the best implementers, and valued participants in this working group, have regularly proved that they don't remember to think out all the systemic issues of syndication. Perhaps it is because there are so few of us that act as intermediaries... The issues are not well understood by those who don't serve this function. Forgive me for suggesting that we call out the obvious. However, this particularly bit of obviousness is not very obvious. In fact, it is probably not "obvious" to most folk until *after* it has been called out. We will help matters greatly by at least providing a recommendation that source elements be inserted in signed entries... bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 13:26:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DprBR-00013D-Qp for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:26:09 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA26750 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:26:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65HKNTv093535; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:20:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65HKN2r093534; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:20:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.pubsub.com (mail.pubsub.com [209.11.36.150]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65HKKoT093498 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:20:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bobwyman@pubsub.com) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.pubsub.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F8F472448B; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:20:15 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Antone Roundy'" , Subject: RE: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:20:13 -0400 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <7B52EA23-ED75-11D9-8204-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Thread-Index: AcWBhNw02tdczuicR/6FeHvkKjgDRgAALrhA Message-Id: <20050705172015.5F8F472448B@mail.pubsub.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Antone Roundy wrote: > "When signing individual entries that do not contain an > atom:source element, be aware that aggregators inserting an > atom:source element will be unable to retain the signature. For this > reason, publishers might consider including an atom:source element in > all individually signed entries." +1 bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 13:51:39 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dpra6-0003I6-Tp for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:51:39 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA29800 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:51:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65HjgxF097471; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:45:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65Hjeoq097458; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:45:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65HjVcJ097353 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:45:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65HjVGY025092 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:45:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IJ600M9N1BUVD@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 11:45:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.102.100] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IJ600JRT1BUPY@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 11:45:30 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 10:45:29 -0700 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 In-reply-to: <7B52EA23-ED75-11D9-8204-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> To: Antone Roundy Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <7B52EA23-ED75-11D9-8204-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Jul 5, 2005, at 9:54 AM, Antone Roundy wrote: > "When signing individual entries that do not contain an atom:source > element, be aware that aggregators inserting an atom:source element > will be unable to retain the signature. For this reason, publishers > might consider including an atom:source element in all individually > signed entries." Still -1, despite Bob's arguments, at least in part because we have no idea what kind of applications are going to be using signed entries and we shouldn't try to micromanage a future we don't understand. -Tim > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 14:12:21 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dpru9-0006le-BL for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 14:12:21 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA02562 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:12:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65I4Khd099285; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:04:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65I4KkP099284; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:04:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.147.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65I4KEN099272 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:04:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D87BCEA for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.150.112] (diva.verity.com [192.168.150.112]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j65I4EiN018064 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 11:28:10 -0700 From: Walter Underwood To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 Message-ID: <7FEE694B7EADDBB53B24801A@diva.verity.com> In-Reply-To: References: <7B52EA23-ED75-11D9-8204-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On Tuesday, July 05, 2005 10:45:29 AM -0700 Tim Bray wrote: > > Still -1, despite Bob's arguments, at least in part because we have no idea > what kind of applications are going to be using signed entries and we shouldn't > try to micromanage a future we don't understand. -Tim I'm +1, because this is a "when features collide!" issue for Atom. We don't have to make it a SHOULD or a MUST, just point out that signed entries need to be standalone if they will ever be used outside of their feed context. wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect Verity Ultraseek From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 14:33:52 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DpsEy-00051Y-P6 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 14:33:52 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA04318 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:33:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65IONdY001022; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:24:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65IONxB001021; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:24:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.pubsub.com (mail.pubsub.com [209.11.36.150]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65IONcM000989 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:24:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bobwyman@pubsub.com) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.pubsub.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8A567245DB; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:24:17 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Tim Bray'" , "'Antone Roundy'" Cc: Subject: RE: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:24:15 -0400 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcWBi4O05i2hBKooSzema1G1b0i5SgAAEu4w Message-Id: <20050705182417.C8A567245DB@mail.pubsub.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > Still -1, despite Bob's arguments, at least in part because we have > no idea what kind of applications are going to be using signed > entries and we shouldn't try to micromanage a future we don't > understand. -Tim We *DO* know that PubSub will support signed entries in the future... And, we know that PubSub and any service like it will be forced to discard signatures on any signed entries that do not have source elements in them. Given that at least some would consider it likely that such services will not only remain popular but grow in popularity in the future, why is it such a terrible thing to provide an optional recommendation that people address the needs of these services? I find it hard to imagine what harm could be done by providing this recommendation. Any application written in the future is already forced to handle entries with source elements since these elements are permitted by the Atom specification as it stands now. Thus, simply recommending that people do what they are already permitted to do just doesn't seem to threaten harm to unspecified future applications -- yet, it would clearly accomplish some good in the case of the known applications. What is the utility of signed entries if not to facilitate the copying of entries between feeds? Why sign individual elements unless they are likely to be removed from their original context? If entries are not to be copied, then feed signatures are all that is necessary and would result in smaller, more bandwidth-efficient feeds. bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 15:04:06 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DpsiE-0002Tr-Jh for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 15:04:06 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA07974 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 15:04:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65ImvAX002987; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:48:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65ImvwS002986; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:48:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [63.249.99.114] (adsl-66-125-125-65.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [66.125.125.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65ImkkX002950; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:48:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20050705182417.C8A567245DB@mail.pubsub.com> References: <20050705182417.C8A567245DB@mail.pubsub.com> Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:48:44 -0700 To: , "'Tim Bray'" , "'Antone Roundy'" From: Paul Hoffman Subject: RE: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 Cc: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At 2:24 PM -0400 7/5/05, Bob Wyman wrote: > I find it hard to imagine what harm could be done by providing this >recommendation. Timing. If we change text other than because of an IESG note, there is a strong chance we will have to delay being finalized by two weeks, possibly more. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 15:18:53 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DpswX-0004ms-Jc for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 15:18:53 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA10733 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 15:18:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65J5Cdx004091; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:05:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65J5C9G004090; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:05:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j65J5AC4004080 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:05:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 05 Jul 2005 19:04:59 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-253-150.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.253.150] by mail.gmx.net (mp015) with SMTP; 05 Jul 2005 21:04:59 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:09:34 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 Message-ID: <20050705190934.GA8298@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <7B52EA23-ED75-11D9-8204-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <20050705172015.5F8F472448B@mail.pubsub.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050705172015.5F8F472448B@mail.pubsub.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id PAA10733 * Bob Wyman [2005-07-05 19:30]: >=20 > Antone Roundy wrote: > > "When signing individual entries that do not contain an=20 > > atom:source element, be aware that aggregators inserting an=20 > > atom:source element will be unable to retain the signature. For this=20 > > reason, publishers might consider including an atom:source element in > > all individually signed entries." >=20 >=20 > +1 +1 as well. It is one of those obvious-in-hindsight things that the spec would do well to point out to implementors in advance. If putting this into the spec would require a delay, then I suppose we=E2=80=99ll have to end up living with a spec that could have been more explicit. This clarification is not worth slowing things down for. But if we can get this in there as part of the parcel for clearing the =E2=80=9Cdiscuss=E2=80=9D vote without further delaying the = process, (after all, it doesn=E2=80=99t actually change the spec in any way, it just explicates ramifications of the spec as it already stands,) it would be a very worthwhile addition. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 15:20:00 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dpsxc-0005Tz-3s for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 15:20:00 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA10903 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 15:19:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65JCOMr004563; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:12:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65JCOZi004562; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:12:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.199]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65JCNGG004547 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:12:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i14so1125362wra for ; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:12:17 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=T4soleFv2DH59cO/IRtX+52EQYcP+GpxcLXeebZtFllbWirTzgSkExeC3y72oUEZztESS8vo/Fbr95XQUk8cEgNYyLQWBFvhDYK9Rlq3DMOkLBxEYYT9dijGYT92FaPoKxHysnNPkIlBNyBuSf1sxA4lpaA5bOjWCJryhY/hucE= Received: by 10.54.8.51 with SMTP id 51mr2733281wrh; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id g9sm5373342wra.2005.07.05.12.12.16; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42CADB8F.1090804@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:12:15 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Hoffman CC: bobwyman@pubsub.com, "'Tim Bray'" , "'Antone Roundy'" , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 References: <20050705182417.C8A567245DB@mail.pubsub.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Hoffman wrote: > > At 2:24 PM -0400 7/5/05, Bob Wyman wrote: > >> I find it hard to imagine what harm could be done by providing this >> recommendation. > > > Timing. If we change text other than because of an IESG note, there is > a strong chance we will have to delay being finalized by two weeks, > possibly more. > > --Paul Hoffman, Director > --Internet Mail Consortium > > I definitely understand this particular concern, but in going back and reading the original discussion point note from Russ (as quoted in your "Clearing a "discuss" vote email), I would think that this particular point is an important step towards clarifying the potential interop issues when using digital signatures within Atom. Furthermore, given that we're not introducing any new requirements into the spec, this is actually a far less impactful change than the modification we just made to adjust the spec text to explicitly allow Signatures in any atom:entry. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 15:25:40 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dpt35-0000vy-SQ for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 15:25:39 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA11410 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 15:25:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65JCEJx004542; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:12:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65JCEOJ004541; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:12:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.pubsub.com (mail.pubsub.com [209.11.36.150]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65JCDi9004526; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:12:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bobwyman@pubsub.com) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.pubsub.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 603EF72465C; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 15:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Paul Hoffman'" , "'Tim Bray'" , "'Antone Roundy'" Cc: Subject: RE: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 15:12:06 -0400 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcWBkjJbRqaETu4JS96HJQbQdY/JgQAANy3g Message-Id: <20050705191208.603EF72465C@mail.pubsub.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Hoffman wrote: > Timing. If we change text other than because of an IESG note, > there is a strong chance we will have to delay being finalized by > two weeks, possibly more. I am aware of the issues with timing and I believe I am just as concerned as you are with these issues. I was rather stunned to be at Gnomedex recently and hear it said that after all the effort we've put into Atom we still have "nothing to show for it." An approved RFC would make such statements much less acceptable... However, I think that this can be positioned as part of the response to the IESG comments concerning canonicalization since including source elements in signed entries will tend to cause those entries to be more "canonical" or consistent in form. Also, given that the addition is merely a recommendation and is thus non-normative, it shouldn't raise any review issues. Please remember that this isn't an issue that I just pulled out of the hat at the last moment. I first brought this up long ago -- long before last call... The problem, as has often been the case with the issues I raise, is that there aren't many people who seem to be terribly aware of or concerned with the aggregation issues even though we've got reasonable representation from those who build feed generators and clients. I'm trying hard to do the right thing for Atom and really wish that other intermediaries, search engines, etc. would participate more but for whatever reason, most have chosen to remain silent on these issues... bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 15:35:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DptCF-0006Ph-Mi for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 15:35:07 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA13012 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 15:35:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65JLAXN005376; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:21:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65JLAlZ005375; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:21:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.199]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65JL9B7005362 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:21:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i27so931409wra for ; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:21:03 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=F3g7oKSqw1nlHuOkc9IeLFDgskGPSN2zzpxJ91P7zlvec4JvGtin8qvhij+N1DfqbvQx6nDsWwPcMzwW8U5ABjMW7QcVixAcNlBLUYEEC2ZYjQxtrwzaI9Nsl6c3iqVO2Ue+hhy5Xn3d9pSiVdWvr7BHurNhO4mgpFLP5t7Cfvc= Received: by 10.54.33.70 with SMTP id g70mr4896019wrg; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.71.13 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:21:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c505070512213e7ef783@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 15:21:02 -0400 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: Robert Sayre To: bobwyman@pubsub.com Subject: Re: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 Cc: Tim Bray , Antone Roundy , atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <20050705182417.C8A567245DB@mail.pubsub.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050705182417.C8A567245DB@mail.pubsub.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j65JL9B7005370 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/5/05, Bob Wyman wrote: > > Tim Bray wrote: > > Still -1, despite Bob's arguments, at least in part because we have > > no idea what kind of applications are going to be using signed > > entries and we shouldn't try to micromanage a future we don't > > understand. -Tim -1 as well. > What is the utility of signed entries if not to facilitate the > copying of entries between feeds? Why sign individual elements unless they > are likely to be removed from their original context? If entries are not to > be copied, then feed signatures are all that is necessary and would result > in smaller, more bandwidth-efficient feeds. Here are two uses: 1.) Calculate a signature for each entry once, but vary the number of entries in a feed. 2.) Pass through a signature received via Atom Protocol. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 15:39:00 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DptG0-0002CY-An for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 15:39:00 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA13294 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 15:38:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65JQkRA005764; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:26:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65JQkKP005763; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:26:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.147.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65JQjFF005751 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:26:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC336F4 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.150.112] (diva.verity.com [192.168.150.112]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j65JQeiN019306 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:50:36 -0700 From: Walter Underwood To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: RE: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <20050705182417.C8A567245DB@mail.pubsub.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On Tuesday, July 05, 2005 11:48:44 AM -0700 Paul Hoffman wrote: > At 2:24 PM -0400 7/5/05, Bob Wyman wrote: >> I find it hard to imagine what harm could be done by providing this >> recommendation. > > Timing. If we change text other than because of an IESG note, there is a strong > chance we will have to delay being finalized by two weeks, possibly more. I'm fine with the delay. Two or three weeks on top of 18 months is not a big deal. wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect Verity Ultraseek From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 16:11:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DptlH-0005xV-35 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 16:11:19 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA17034 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:11:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65JxRQb009452; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:59:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65JxRPt009451; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:59:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65JxQ9f009439 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:59:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65JxP8t006431 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:59:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IJ6003QD7J1EI@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:59:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.102.100] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IJ60009U7J0H8@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:59:25 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:59:21 -0700 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 In-reply-to: To: Walter Underwood Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Message-id: <2C92733B-62D7-4BC6-8BDC-64AA9C5A4237@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20050705182417.C8A567245DB@mail.pubsub.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Jul 5, 2005, at 12:50 PM, Walter Underwood wrote: > I'm fine with the delay. Two or three weeks on top of 18 months is > not a big deal. I am *not*. It's not "two or three weeks", it's "some uncontrollable time in the future" versus "now". We have spent way too long already. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 16:14:57 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dptol-0007an-HO for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 16:14:57 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA17380 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:14:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65K6FC8010101; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:06:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65K6Fq7010100; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:06:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta09-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mta09-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.49]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65K6DuT010078 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:06:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mta09-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050705200608.HLZL11649.mta09-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com> for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:06:08 +0100 Received: from cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust90.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([81.111.201.90]) by aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050705200608.XIQP11226.aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust90.bagu.cable.ntl.com> for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:06:08 +0100 Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:06:08 +0100 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.5.33) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1933286859.20050705210608@djpowell.net> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Media type clarification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's been raised before [1] [2], but can we clarify whether a MIME type in atom:content etc. can contain parameters or not? MIME is a bit vague about the definition of what a "mime type" is, and historically applications have been tripped up by unexpected MIME parameters. Can we add something like "consisting of a main-type, sub-type, and optional parameters"? [1] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg08283.html [2] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg14177.html -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 16:24:55 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DptyR-00047j-9l for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 16:24:55 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA20042 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:24:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65KBaIE010517; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:11:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65KBawi010516; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:11:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65KBaJM010506 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:11:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <2005070520113001500gvum4e>; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 20:11:30 +0000 Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:11:28 -0600 Subject: Re: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <20050705190934.GA8298@klangraum> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j65KBaJM010511 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id QAA20042 On Tuesday, July 5, 2005, at 01:09 PM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > * Bob Wyman [2005-07-05 19:30]: >> Antone Roundy wrote: >>> "When signing individual entries that do not contain an >>> atom:source element, be aware that aggregators inserting an >>> atom:source element will be unable to retain the signature. For this >>> reason, publishers might consider including an atom:source element in >>> all individually signed entries." >> +1 > +1 as well. It is one of those obvious-in-hindsight things that > the spec would do well to point out to implementors in advance. > > If putting this into the spec would require a delay, then I > suppose we=92ll have to end up living with a spec that could have > been more explicit. This clarification is not worth slowing > things down for. Agreed. If we can get it in without delaying things, I'm all for it. =20 But if not, then I can live without it. It doesn't actually change=20 anything--just reduces the probability of the issue being overlooked. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 16:25:00 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DptyW-00048L-0M for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 16:25:00 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA20060 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:24:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65K5pwE010029; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:05:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65K5pHp010025; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:05:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta07-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mta07-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.47]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65K5nNL009997; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:05:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamta10-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mta07-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050705200543.TDJL481.mta07-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamta10-winn.ispmail.ntl.com>; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:05:43 +0100 Received: from cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust90.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([81.111.201.90]) by aamta10-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050705200543.WTKX23101.aamta10-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust90.bagu.cable.ntl.com>; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:05:43 +0100 Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:05:43 +0100 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.5.33) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1452333985.20050705210543@djpowell.net> To: Paul Hoffman CC: "Atom WG" Subject: Re: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 In-Reply-To: References: <20050705155900.1C1197242C8@mail.pubsub.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tuesday, July 5, 2005, 5:09:40 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > At 11:58 AM -0400 7/5/05, Bob Wyman wrote: >> Could we at least put in a sentence that states that including a >>source element in signed entries is recommended? The implementer's guide >>would then expand on that with more detail, discussion, etc. > It's quite late to do this. The IESG is looking at a particular > version of the draft, and are making comments on that particular > version. It is really important that we only make changes based on > IESG members' input, not on yet-more things we find. Will we still be fixing some of bugs raised since the last draft though? Specifically, what are the resolutions for the disputed ban on composite MIME types [1], and some of the specific bugs in section 6 [2] (mismatches with the RelaxNG etc)? [1] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg15911.html [2] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg15915.html -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 17:33:11 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dpv2U-000765-TS for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 17:33:11 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA01690 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:33:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65LO9BM016105; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:24:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65LO9xS016104; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:24:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65LO85v016090; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:24:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65LO88t005426; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 15:24:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IJ6003S4BG7EI@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM>; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 15:24:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.102.100] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IJ6000M0BG6H8@mail.sun.net>; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 15:24:07 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 14:24:04 -0700 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 In-reply-to: <1452333985.20050705210543@djpowell.net> To: David Powell Cc: Paul Hoffman , Atom WG Message-id: <634C82C0-8D35-4A9A-890C-D1D4480531BE@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <20050705155900.1C1197242C8@mail.pubsub.com> <1452333985.20050705210543@djpowell.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Jul 5, 2005, at 1:05 PM, David Powell wrote: > Will we still be fixing some of bugs raised since the last draft > though? Definitely. A number of things have been pointed out as bugs, there's been no WG pushback on any of them, and since we were going to have to have a -10 draft anyhow for the namespace, we will roll in those fixes, as well as resolving any IESG-raised issues. -Tim > > Specifically, what are the resolutions for the disputed ban on > composite MIME types [1], and some of the specific bugs in section 6 > [2] (mismatches with the RelaxNG etc)? > > [1] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg15911.html > [2] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg15915.html > > -- > Dave > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 17:38:13 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dpv7N-0001wb-9m for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 17:38:13 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA03023 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:38:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65GrTxh090513; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:53:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65GrT94090512; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:53:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65GrS8e090497; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:53:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65GrSGY013421; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:53:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IJ500MITYX3VD@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM>; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 10:53:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.102.100] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IJ5001A9YX25T@mail.sun.net>; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 10:53:27 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 09:53:42 -0700 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 In-reply-to: <42CAB4E6.8080600@gmail.com> To: James M Snell Cc: bobwyman@pubsub.com, "'Paul Hoffman'" , "'Atom WG'" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20050705155900.1C1197242C8@mail.pubsub.com> <42CAB4E6.8080600@gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Jul 5, 2005, at 9:27 AM, James M Snell wrote: >> Huh?! Pardon my ignorance, could you please provide an >> explanation for the simple-minded as to how the absence of a >> source element in a signed entry will lead to signatures being >> discarded? Also, it would be helpful to sketch in some of the >> surrounding scenario... -Tim >> > Bob can clarify exactly what he means but from my perspective it > comes down to an aggregation problem. If a signature is generated > over an entry that does not contain an author element or a source > element, that entry cannot be re-enveloped into an aggregate feed > that does not contain a top level author element without breaking > the signature Well, yes. Anyone who understands digsig, even someone such as myself with only a surface knowledge, can see this. You can't change a signed object without breaking the sig, that's the point. If I want to sign an entry and also want to make it available for aggregation then yes, I'd better put in an atom:source. But this is inherent in the basic definition of digsig; not something we need to call out. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 18:30:20 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dpvvo-0005eE-98 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 18:30:20 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA09584 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 18:30:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65MLeIg019163; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 15:21:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65MLeWV019162; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 15:21:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mcom.com (c3po.aoltw.net [64.236.137.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65MLdk0019156 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 15:21:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jpanzer@aol.net) Received: from judge.mcom.com (judge.nscp.aoltw.net [10.169.8.47]) by mcom.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id j65MLNF24845 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 15:21:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.169.241.143] ([10.169.186.33]) by judge.mcom.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id IJ6E3N00.Y0M; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 15:21:23 -0700 Message-ID: <42CB07E3.3090905@aol.net> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 15:21:23 -0700 From: jpanzer@aol.net (John Panzer) User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Macintosh/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Antone Roundy CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 References: <7B52EA23-ED75-11D9-8204-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> In-Reply-To: <7B52EA23-ED75-11D9-8204-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Antone Roundy wrote: > > On Tuesday, July 5, 2005, at 10:11 AM, Tim Bray wrote: > >> On Jul 5, 2005, at 8:58 AM, Bob Wyman wrote: >> >>> We can debate what it means to have an "interoperability" issue, >>> however, my personal feeling is that if systems are forced to break and >>> discard signatures in order to perform usual and customary >>> processing on >>> entries that falls very close to the realm of interoperability if >>> not within >>> it. Deferring this issue until the implementer's guide is written is >>> likely >>> to defer it beyond the point at which common practice is >>> established. The >>> result is likely to be that intermediaries and aggregators end up >>> discarding >>> most signatures that appear in source feeds. >> >> >> Huh?! Pardon my ignorance, could you please provide an explanation >> for the simple-minded as to how the absence of a source element in a >> signed entry will lead to signatures being discarded? Also, it would >> be helpful to sketch in some of the surrounding scenario... -Tim > > > If a signed entry doesn't have a source element and an aggregator > inserts one, the signature will be broken--thus the aggregator will > either discard the signature or republish the entry with a broken > signature. > > Perhaps language like this would work without being too much of a > change at this late date: > > "When signing individual entries that do not contain an atom:source > element, be aware that aggregators inserting an atom:source element > will be unable to retain the signature. For this reason, publishers > might consider including an atom:source element in all individually > signed entries." > +1. I think this thread shows that the implications of signing individual entries sans atom:source elements are nonobvious and worth a (non-normative) note to help implementors, if this will not delay things. -- John Panzer Sr Technical Manager, AOL http://journals.aol.com/panzerjohn/abstractioneer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 20:02:37 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DpxN7-0000so-2k for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:02:37 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA22206 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 20:02:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65NuNPV025447; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:56:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65NuN2B025446; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:56:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65NuMg0025431; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:56:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65NuMGY013084; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:56:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IJ6003WZIHXEI@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM>; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 17:56:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.102.100] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IJ6000XXIHXH8@mail.sun.net>; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 17:56:21 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 16:56:19 -0700 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 In-reply-to: To: Paul Hoffman Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Message-id: <778E7F31-8B2C-43A7-B7D1-0B4FAAF0FD11@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <7B52EA23-ED75-11D9-8204-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <42CB07E3.3090905@aol.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Jul 5, 2005, at 4:08 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > Intermediaries such as aggregators may need to add an atom:source > element to an entry that does not contain its own atom:source > element. If such an entry was signed, the addition will break the > signature. Thus, a publisher of individually-signed entries should > strongly consider adding an atom:source element to those entries > before signing them. Grumble grumble OK. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 20:09:50 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DpxU6-0005Yx-82 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:09:50 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA23395 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 20:09:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6600Ru3026685; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:00:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6600R06026684; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:00:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.pubsub.com (mail.pubsub.com [209.11.36.150]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6600RxH026670; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:00:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bobwyman@pubsub.com) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.pubsub.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 887C9724D1E; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 20:00:21 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Paul Hoffman'" , Subject: RE: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 20:00:17 -0400 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcWBuTeAcLEfbYHeQ6GFeKsrsG6OogABE+kw Message-Id: <20050706000021.887C9724D1E@mail.pubsub.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Hoffman wrote: > Intermediaries such as aggregators may need to add an > atom:source element to an entry that does not contain its own > atom:source element. If such an entry was signed, the addition > will break the signature. Thus, a publisher of individually-signed > entries should strongly consider adding an atom:source element to > those entries before signing them. It looks good to me. Thanks! bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 22:55:46 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dq04g-0008Ma-N0 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 22:55:46 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11581 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 22:55:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65KQmNJ011541; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:26:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65KQmqM011540; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:26:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65KQlhQ011521 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:26:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i27so944884wra for ; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:26:42 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=m+fa91Yvb8gKokZ4a6/J0z+t7gVL8wVahFFwwFqyi6TMT7DdVOSLlux2hQLqSgrMVROsgF55K3mO0CObe23fDEGQwUO6iDHU1Lt29upVXxO/ycwCgaqGhaWJD7U7sI31x8M6oUp0rS2lx9QM1x98ysFLcgGjlFpSFfPqK6coh7A= Received: by 10.54.31.57 with SMTP id e57mr3018567wre; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 16sm2432167wrl.2005.07.05.13.26.40; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42CAECFF.1040909@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:26:39 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Antone Roundy CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id WAA11581 Antone Roundy wrote: > > On Tuesday, July 5, 2005, at 01:09 PM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > >> * Bob Wyman [2005-07-05 19:30]: >> >>> Antone Roundy wrote: >>> >>>> "When signing individual entries that do not contain an >>>> atom:source element, be aware that aggregators inserting an >>>> atom:source element will be unable to retain the signature. For this >>>> reason, publishers might consider including an atom:source element i= n >>>> all individually signed entries." >>> >>> +1 >> >> +1 as well. It is one of those obvious-in-hindsight things that >> the spec would do well to point out to implementors in advance. >> >> If putting this into the spec would require a delay, then I >> suppose we=92ll have to end up living with a spec that could have >> been more explicit. This clarification is not worth slowing >> things down for. > > > Agreed. If we can get it in without delaying things, I'm all for it. =20 > But if not, then I can live without it. It doesn't actually change=20 > anything--just reduces the probability of the issue being overlooked. > > +1 on including it if and only if we can do so without causing any=20 further delay. -1 if we can't.=20 - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 05 22:59:55 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dq08h-0002yc-H7 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 22:59:55 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA12141 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 22:59:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65HVSA2095921; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:31:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65HVSgg095920; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:31:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.147.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65HVSRP095909 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:31:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F36D4105 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (spike.verity.com [192.168.4.22]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j65HVGiN017543 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 10:31:17 -0700 From: Walter Underwood To: "'Atom WG'" Subject: Re: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <20050705155900.1C1197242C8@mail.pubsub.com> <42CAB4E6.8080600@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Mac OS X) X-Face: 7Vqnb4fOVKsO)3JuUXKxR\M]:e"u'eG`Zue*.((7i7%P%rvZgS[j~95@C-s3i (s!e;OX`'Pngn5lq*Td}#,"5!^jm(65.";[GPtD^c(/1TtMe&wYO;_}\!}fRkxs%q#Jk 5E^BlXwR+8}qOwy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On July 5, 2005 9:53:42 AM -0700 Tim Bray wrote: >>> >> Bob can clarify exactly what he means but from my perspective it >> comes down to an aggregation problem. If a signature is generated >> over an entry that does not contain an author element or a source >> element, that entry cannot be re-enveloped into an aggregate feed >> that does not contain a top level author element without breaking >> the signature > > Well, yes. Anyone who understands digsig, even someone such as myself with only a surface knowledge, can see this. You can't change a signed object without breaking the sig, that's the point. If I want to sign an entry and also want to make it available for aggregation then yes, I'd better put in an atom:source. But this is inherent in the basic definition of digsig; not something we need to call out. -Tim But it is an interoperability consequence of the Atom format and cascaded values. It would be worth commenting that signed entries need to be standalone in order to be aggregated in another feed and keep their signature. wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect, Verity From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 06 03:03:51 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dq3wl-00058C-00 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2005 03:03:51 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA23821 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 03:03:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65N8U6w022531; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:08:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65N8ULn022530; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:08:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [63.249.99.114] (adsl-66-125-125-65.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [66.125.125.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65N8TsP022522 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:08:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <42CB07E3.3090905@aol.net> References: <7B52EA23-ED75-11D9-8204-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <42CB07E3.3090905@aol.net> Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:08:26 -0700 To: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: OK, I'm backing off of my statement that it is too late to deal with this. Thank you to the people who pointed out that this is directly related to Russ' concern about interop of canonicalization. You are right, and I was being too narrow-minded. Does anyone object to the following exact wording being added right after the new paragraph on canonicalizing: Intermediaries such as aggregators may need to add an atom:source element to an entry that does not contain its own atom:source element. If such an entry was signed, the addition will break the signature. Thus, a publisher of individually-signed entries should strongly consider adding an atom:source element to those entries before signing them. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 06 03:09:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dq41s-0000fj-BE for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2005 03:09:08 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA24854 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 03:09:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65N1s8Z021516; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:01:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65N1sW0021515; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:01:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.pubsub.com (mail.pubsub.com [209.11.36.150]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65N1rWj021500; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:01:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bobwyman@pubsub.com) Received: from bobdev (static-68-236-163-34.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.236.163.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.pubsub.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D465724C4A; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 19:01:45 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'Paul Hoffman'" , "'Atom WG'" Cc: "'Tim Bray'" Subject: RE: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 19:01:43 -0400 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcWBB4cGz5au40xWShWrQOL0hCxWVAAq8RZg Message-Id: <20050705230145.1D465724C4A@mail.pubsub.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How about a compromise on the source insertion thing... Paul Hoffman's proposed text for the first paragraph in Section 5 starts off with a set of examples of why one would want to sign or encrypt atom entries or feeds. (Discount coupons, bank statements, etc.) These examples were requested by the IESG. In my opinion, none of the examples really speaks to current uses of Atom. Thus, I would suggest that we either replace one of the existing examples or add a new one with wording something like: A publisher might digitally sign an entry, which included an atom:source element, in order to ensure that verifiable attribution for the entry was available if that entry was copied into another feed or distributed via some other means. I believe this improves the existing proposed text by providing a much more immediately probable example than those currently listed. Additionally, by alluding to the issue of including the source element it may at least tend to cause implementers to consider the wisdom of including source elements in signed entries. Finally, since the provision of examples is something that was explicitly requested as part of the IESG review, this should not cause any delay beyond those that are already inevitable. bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 06 03:09:12 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dq41v-0000jq-UM for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2005 03:09:12 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA24886 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 03:09:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65NRsC3024183; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:27:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j65NRsDU024182; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:27:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j65NRrd0024167 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:27:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id j1so906897rnf for ; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 16:27:53 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=paN8fvdlBobN/7BM2aH/Po8hIm2qtQw+CHm9vtwDBUqqUcF1tKIISYBjOldSshHI2R7YV8FNaActZyj3W/Wcg0v8psxGY8NqCNDBB2hzPRwoXjd5HsNxMo/n+nygQCLvjkpu5cD7zAvfofGq0JX1ieYpEYiY+NmoShVyJuQNSBg= Received: by 10.38.66.4 with SMTP id o4mr4404233rna; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 16:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id z1sm3481904rne.2005.07.05.16.27.52; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 16:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42CB1777.9090604@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 16:27:51 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Hoffman CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 References: <7B52EA23-ED75-11D9-8204-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <42CB07E3.3090905@aol.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Hoffman wrote: > > OK, I'm backing off of my statement that it is too late to deal with > this. Thank you to the people who pointed out that this is directly > related to Russ' concern about interop of canonicalization. You are > right, and I was being too narrow-minded. > > Does anyone object to the following exact wording being added right > after the new paragraph on canonicalizing: > > Intermediaries such as aggregators may need to add an atom:source > element to an entry that does not contain its own atom:source element. > If such an entry was signed, the addition will break the signature. > Thus, a publisher of individually-signed entries should strongly > consider adding an atom:source element to those entries before signing > them. > > --Paul Hoffman, Director > --Internet Mail Consortium > > This text sounds good. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 06 12:56:05 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DqDBt-0003Ot-JK for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2005 12:56:05 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA22100 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 12:56:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j66Glv6L091750; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:47:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j66Glvva091749; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:47:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j66Glt9W091708 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:47:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 06 Jul 2005 16:47:48 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-246-108.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.246.108] by mail.gmx.net (mp005) with SMTP; 06 Jul 2005 18:47:48 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 18:52:28 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Roll-up of proposed changes to atompub-format section 5 Message-ID: <20050706165228.GA13440@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <7B52EA23-ED75-11D9-8204-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <42CB07E3.3090905@aol.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * Paul Hoffman [2005-07-06 01:20]: > Does anyone object to the following exact wording being added > right after the new paragraph on canonicalizing: Not me. +1 to the addition. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 06 13:03:51 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DqDJP-0002Xc-8z for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2005 13:03:51 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA22823 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 13:03:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j66Gv0AC095180; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:57:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j66Gv0xp095179; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:57:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.147.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j66Gv0YV095159 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:57:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECD23111 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:56:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (spike.verity.com [192.168.4.22]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j66GuqiN006472 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:56:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 09:56:53 -0700 From: Walter Underwood To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Mystery abbrevations in draft 9 Message-ID: <311679D5F077E01F90D92B94@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Mac OS X) X-Face: 7Vqnb4fOVKsO)3JuUXKxR\M]:e"u'eG`Zue*.((7i7%P%rvZgS[j~95@C-s3i (s!e;OX`'Pngn5lq*Td}#,"5!^jm(65.";[GPtD^c(/1TtMe&wYO;_}\!}fRkxs%q#Jk 5E^BlXwR+8}qOwy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In 4.2.6 atom:id, the last sentence is: o Ensure that all components of the IRI are appropriately character- normalized, e.g. by using NFC or NFKC. "NFC" and "NFKC" need to be defined, with a reference to the Unicode spec. wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect, Verity From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 06 14:30:38 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DqEfO-0000az-0E for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2005 14:30:38 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA02086 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 14:30:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j66IOoCq019662; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 11:24:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j66IOo2C019661; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 11:24:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.147.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j66IOnmQ019624 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 11:24:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61715A6 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 11:24:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (spike.verity.com [192.168.4.22]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j66IOhiN007910 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 11:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 11:24:43 -0700 From: Walter Underwood To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Mystery abbrevations in draft 9 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <311679D5F077E01F90D92B94@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Mac OS X) X-Face: 7Vqnb4fOVKsO)3JuUXKxR\M]:e"u'eG`Zue*.((7i7%P%rvZgS[j~95@C-s3i (s!e;OX`'Pngn5lq*Td}#,"5!^jm(65.";[GPtD^c(/1TtMe&wYO;_}\!}fRkxs%q#Jk 5E^BlXwR+8}qOwy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On July 6, 2005 11:05:33 AM -0700 Paul Hoffman wrote: > > Spelling out the abbreviations as "Unicode Normalization Form C" and "Unicode > Normalization Form KC" is fine; referencing them is *not*. A reference to the > Unicode Standard inherently points to a particular version, and the tables used > for NFC and NFKC change from version to version. XML already has normative references to Unicode, so we can't exactly avoid those without dropping XML. Of course, the correct choice of normalization rules for atom:id is not the ones from the XML spec, but the IRI rules from RFC 3987. We really could have two sets of "standard" normalization rules in one document, one for XML and one for atom:id URIs, so I think it is worth pointing to RFC 3987 for indirect references to NFC/NFKC. Without clarification, this is a legitimate chance for confusion. wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect, Verity From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 06 18:36:44 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DqIVY-0005Ka-Qd for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2005 18:36:44 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA06818 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 18:36:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j66MSkok050293; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 15:28:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j66MSkne050292; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 15:28:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [63.249.99.114] (adsl-66-125-125-65.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [66.125.125.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j66MSjIq050283 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 15:28:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 15:28:41 -0700 To: Atom WG From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Major backtracking on canonicalization Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Greetings again. I gravely misunderstood XML Canonicalization, and as it has been explained to me now, XML Canonicalization would be a disaster for Atom: what we want is Exclusive XML Canonicalization. See . What I didn't get was that in normal XML Canonicalization, the canonicalized version gets all the external definitions added as text; that doesn't happen in Exclusive XML Canonicalization. I thought that in normal XML Canonicalization, those definitions got assumed; I didn't realize that they got actually put in as text. Yuck. (I cannot understand how the folks who put together XMLDigSig could allow normal XML Canonicalization to be even thought of, much less the only required form. What a mess.) Now that I understand this better, I believe that our text should read: [[ NEW ]] Section 6.5.1 of [W3C.REC-xmldsig-core-20020212] requires support for Canonical XML. However, many people believe that Canonical XML may be deprecated in the future, and many implementers do not use it because signed XML documents enclosed in other XML documents have their signatures broken. Thus, Atom Processors that verify signed Atom Documents MUST be able to canonicalize with Exclusive XML Canonicalization. Does anyone object to that? --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 06 19:31:27 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DqJMV-0007V9-KD for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2005 19:31:27 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA15135 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 19:31:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j66NLjgK055043; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:21:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j66NLjMn055042; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:21:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.198]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j66NLiPt055004 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:21:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so90300wri for ; Wed, 06 Jul 2005 16:21:38 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ATiMORAzY4Z4feez+CKkVJy/Iag9sXctI9pnvwCz3tE6YypoflAqiVJd9YjB+L5nncpRjJSNxIL8KxeUz2aWnZoKUz5fkR9Io7iO7p6b1yEvjnkTJpKXtOyfSSgQqgyRHMHwKK/QEppjQMGQhWA1Zqh15zVgkfbCKdeMzRZ7jso= Received: by 10.54.59.7 with SMTP id h7mr2371485wra; Wed, 06 Jul 2005 16:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 39sm7270711wrl.2005.07.06.16.21.38; Wed, 06 Jul 2005 16:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42CC677E.80107@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 16:21:34 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Hoffman CC: Atom WG Subject: Re: Major backtracking on canonicalization References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Hoffman wrote: > > [[ NEW ]] > > Section 6.5.1 of [W3C.REC-xmldsig-core-20020212] requires support > for Canonical XML. However, many people believe that Canonical XML > may be deprecated in the future, and many implementers do not use > it because signed XML documents enclosed in other XML documents have > their signatures broken. Thus, Atom Processors that verify signed > Atom Documents MUST be able to canonicalize with Exclusive XML > Canonicalization. > > Does anyone object to that? > No objections. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 06 19:47:44 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DqJcG-0004pc-CX for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2005 19:47:44 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA15985 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 19:47:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j66NfUSf056454; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:41:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j66NfU1J056453; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:41:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j66NfTXi056440; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:41:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j66NfT8t007955; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 17:41:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IJ800NU4CH41P@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM>; Wed, 06 Jul 2005 17:41:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.102.100] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IJ8008EZCH30G@mail.sun.net>; Wed, 06 Jul 2005 17:41:28 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 16:41:25 -0700 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Major backtracking on canonicalization In-reply-to: To: Paul Hoffman Cc: Atom WG Message-id: <5B20165D-E548-48E6-8CA7-3BC083FE9CD2@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Jul 6, 2005, at 3:28 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > > Greetings again. I gravely misunderstood XML Canonicalization, and > as it has been explained to me now, XML Canonicalization would be a > disaster for Atom: what we want is Exclusive XML Canonicalization. Urgh, I should have caught this. Correct. +1 -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 06 20:32:45 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DqKJp-0003Oz-6p for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2005 20:32:45 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA18637 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 20:32:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j670LtKX058904; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 17:21:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j670LtiQ058903; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 17:21:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.pubsub.com (mail.pubsub.com [209.11.36.150]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j670Lt2J058871; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 17:21:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from IBMC101DE8DFED (cpe-68-174-167-137.nyc.res.rr.com [68.174.167.137]) by mail.pubsub.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B670725C20; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 20:21:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000f01c58289$da818960$6600a8c0@IBMC101DE8DFED> From: "Bob Wyman" To: "Atom WG" , "Paul Hoffman" References: Subject: Re: Major backtracking on canonicalization Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 20:21:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Hoffman wrote: > Now that I understand this better, I believe that our text should read: Thank you for catching this. You've saved us major pain! bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 07 05:09:55 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DqSOJ-0002d2-CT for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 05:09:55 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA14332 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 05:09:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6790YOi089335; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 02:00:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6790YXf089334; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 02:00:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.199]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6790XJF089289 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 02:00:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 14so66480nzn for ; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 02:00:27 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=g7Y3HtcWBXGncI9s0VGw66+w7nd+NT0zBDfQi12FPJgHCceSXGH1EEwn/ITbBAsZtb2LTGnlgYhOxUtLDi9WLUvF8RynxCwrAbbTI2y0vhmyn7UU6E/iHEQ3pJ9GIt55BPSXqpGQC4ZpQxW9UjICaVnI0VV7gqdj2/1aA1tmCYk= Received: by 10.36.50.18 with SMTP id x18mr172373nzx; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 02:00:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.47.13 with HTTP; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 02:00:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd050707020067465d97@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:00:27 +0200 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Bob Wyman Subject: Re: Major backtracking on canonicalization Cc: Atom WG , Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: <000f01c58289$da818960$6600a8c0@IBMC101DE8DFED> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <000f01c58289$da818960$6600a8c0@IBMC101DE8DFED> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6790XJF089322 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/7/05, Bob Wyman wrote: > > Paul Hoffman wrote: > > Now that I understand this better, I believe that our text should read: > > Thank you for catching this. You've saved us major pain! +1 -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 07 10:38:53 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DqXWe-0004JL-CY for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 10:38:53 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA13089 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:38:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j67EOdRi009777; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 07:24:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j67EOdPa009776; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 07:24:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ussjmh01.bea.com (ussjmh01.bea.com [63.96.162.5]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j67EOdLo009763; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 07:24:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from markn@bea.com) Received: from ussjfe01.amer.bea.com (ussjfe01b.bea.com [172.16.120.57]) by ussjmh01.bea.com (Switch-3.0.5/Switch-3.0.0) with ESMTP id j67EOM5M020369; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 07:24:37 -0700 Received: from USSFEX01.amer.bea.com ([10.32.0.56]) by ussjfe01.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Thu, 7 Jul 2005 07:23:45 -0700 Received: from [10.40.4.45] ([10.40.4.45]) by USSFEX01.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Thu, 7 Jul 2005 07:23:45 -0700 In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v730) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Atom WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Major backtracking on canonicalization Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:23:43 -0400 To: Paul Hoffman X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jul 2005 14:23:45.0350 (UTC) FILETIME=[7BB29660:01C582FF] X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.2.0, Antispam-Data: 2005.6.29.38 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We should go into a little more detail. Are we specifying exclusive c14n with or without comments? My preference would be without. As I understand it, inherited xml:lang and xml:base attributes aren't signed when you're using exclusive c14n. If we ended up allowing per- entry signatures, we need to give guidance that xml:lang and xml:base should be explicitly included in the signed content if they are important. It may be helpful to give guidance about the usage of the InclusiveNamespaces PrefixList, especially with default namespaces. It also might be good to give guidance to extension authors and publishers about use of namespaces that aren't visibly bound; e.g., QNames in content. More information at: http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/REC-xml-exc-c14n-20020718/#sec-Limitations Another good reference is the WS-I Basic Security Profile; http://www.ws-i.org/Profiles/ BasicSecurityProfile-1.0.html#xmlSignatureAlgorithms On 06/07/2005, at 6:28 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > > Greetings again. I gravely misunderstood XML Canonicalization, and > as it has been explained to me now, XML Canonicalization would be a > disaster for Atom: what we want is Exclusive XML Canonicalization. > See . > > What I didn't get was that in normal XML Canonicalization, the > canonicalized version gets all the external definitions added as > text; that doesn't happen in Exclusive XML Canonicalization. I > thought that in normal XML Canonicalization, those definitions got > assumed; I didn't realize that they got actually put in as text. Yuck. > > (I cannot understand how the folks who put together XMLDigSig could > allow normal XML Canonicalization to be even thought of, much less > the only required form. What a mess.) > > Now that I understand this better, I believe that our text should > read: > > [[ NEW ]] > > Section 6.5.1 of [W3C.REC-xmldsig-core-20020212] requires support > for Canonical XML. However, many people believe that Canonical XML > may be deprecated in the future, and many implementers do not use > it because signed XML documents enclosed in other XML documents > have > their signatures broken. Thus, Atom Processors that verify signed > Atom Documents MUST be able to canonicalize with Exclusive XML > Canonicalization. > > Does anyone object to that? > > --Paul Hoffman, Director > --Internet Mail Consortium > > > -- Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist Office of the CTO BEA Systems From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 07 11:47:43 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DqYbH-0003L4-4B for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 11:47:43 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA19799 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:47:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j67FaWAH018145; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:36:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j67FaWjI018144; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:36:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [63.249.99.114] (dsl2-63-249-92-231.cruzio.com [63.249.92.231]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j67FaT9L018134; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:36:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:36:27 -0700 To: Mark Nottingham From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: Major backtracking on canonicalization Cc: Atom WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At 10:23 AM -0400 7/7/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: >Are we specifying exclusive c14n with or without comments? My >preference would be without. Without. That is explicitly the default for . >As I understand it, inherited xml:lang and xml:base attributes >aren't signed when you're using exclusive c14n. If we ended up >allowing per-entry signatures, we need to give guidance that >xml:lang and xml:base should be explicitly included in the signed >content if they are important. Why? We are signing bags of bits. Why add those from the outside? >It may be helpful to give guidance about the usage of the >InclusiveNamespaces PrefixList, especially with default namespaces. The whole purpose of using exclusive XML is to not need to guess about what is and is not in the bag of bits being hashed. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 07 14:03:34 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dqaik-0005uu-IS for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 14:03:34 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA29968 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 14:03:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j67HumTE040515; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:56:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j67HumgP040514; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:56:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [205.237.194.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j67Huk5F040500; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:56:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [128.30.5.40] (30-5-40.wireless.csail.mit.edu [128.30.5.40]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0B5EA32AB; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 13:56:45 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v730) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <7590BCA1-74AA-4E1B-B3D9-CF95680254BC@mnot.net> Cc: Atom WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Major backtracking on canonicalization Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 13:56:42 -0400 To: Paul Hoffman X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 07/07/2005, at 11:36 AM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > At 10:23 AM -0400 7/7/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> Are we specifying exclusive c14n with or without comments? My >> preference would be without. > > Without. That is explicitly the default for 2002/REC-xml-exc-c14n-20020718/>. Where does it state that explicitly? There are two identifiers in section four; it would be best to reference the spec and the applicable identifier by name. >> As I understand it, inherited xml:lang and xml:base attributes >> aren't signed when you're using exclusive c14n. If we ended up >> allowing per-entry signatures, we need to give guidance that >> xml:lang and xml:base should be explicitly included in the signed >> content if they are important. > > Why? We are signing bags of bits. Why add those from the outside? Exclusive canonicalisation itself says, in section 5.1; > applications must carefully specify the XML (i.e., source, > fragment, and target) or define the node-set processing (i.e., > removal, replacement, and insertion) with respect to default > namespace declarations (e.g., xmlns="") and XML attributes (e.g., > xml:lang, xml:space, and xml:base). Imagine that you sign an entry that relies on an feed-level xml:base of "http://www.example.com/". If you exclusively canonicalise, an attacker could introduce an xml:base of "http://www.evil- attacker.net/" into the signed entry without invalidating the signature, effectively rewriting all of the URIs inside it. Similar problems would occur with xml:lang, since we depend heavily on it (although I see xml:base as a more serious problem). >> It may be helpful to give guidance about the usage of the >> InclusiveNamespaces PrefixList, especially with default namespaces. > > The whole purpose of using exclusive XML is to not need to guess > about what is and is not in the bag of bits being hashed. Right. People need to understand the implications of including or excluding particular pieces of information from that bag, as per above. -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 07 14:23:03 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dqb1b-0008M6-E5 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 14:23:03 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA02137 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 14:23:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j67IE7s8042209; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:14:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j67IE77t042208; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:14:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.196]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j67IE6mT042182 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:14:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i27so257153wra for ; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 11:14:01 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=hvlfr6vhmrVeQtO2uS5lLF3tR4SpePDfBl2DDnp1cRHSv+wdmK42JUbVqdV/pvyr7ODJBjRHE80Sj5iuefsB/I6FqgGTD1TUo7IuccstYkJMSeYIqPyhnvjZ9iom5CO0rUU43Wn7hTWtG075lH/OybG/T2rskRGNWyvMJpjOZMw= Received: by 10.54.7.78 with SMTP id 78mr957523wrg; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 11:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 8sm1499460wrl.2005.07.07.11.13.59; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 11:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42CD70E0.60901@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 11:13:52 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham CC: Paul Hoffman , Atom WG Subject: Re: Major backtracking on canonicalization References: <7590BCA1-74AA-4E1B-B3D9-CF95680254BC@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <7590BCA1-74AA-4E1B-B3D9-CF95680254BC@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Nottingham wrote: > > On 07/07/2005, at 11:36 AM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > >> At 10:23 AM -0400 7/7/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> >>> Are we specifying exclusive c14n with or without comments? My >>> preference would be without. >> >> >> Without. That is explicitly the default for > 2002/REC-xml-exc-c14n-20020718/>. > > > Where does it state that explicitly? There are two identifiers in > section four; it would be best to reference the spec and the > applicable identifier by name. > +1 > >>> As I understand it, inherited xml:lang and xml:base attributes >>> aren't signed when you're using exclusive c14n. If we ended up >>> allowing per-entry signatures, we need to give guidance that >>> xml:lang and xml:base should be explicitly included in the signed >>> content if they are important. >> >> >> Why? We are signing bags of bits. Why add those from the outside? > > > Exclusive canonicalisation itself says, in section 5.1; > >> applications must carefully specify the XML (i.e., source, fragment, >> and target) or define the node-set processing (i.e., removal, >> replacement, and insertion) with respect to default namespace >> declarations (e.g., xmlns="") and XML attributes (e.g., xml:lang, >> xml:space, and xml:base). > > Imagine that you sign an entry that relies on an feed-level xml:base > of "http://www.example.com/". If you exclusively canonicalise, an > attacker could introduce an xml:base of "http://www.evil- > attacker.net/" into the signed entry without invalidating the > signature, effectively rewriting all of the URIs inside it. Similar > problems would occur with xml:lang, since we depend heavily on it > (although I see xml:base as a more serious problem). > Good catch. I had missed this when I was looking at ex-c14n. +1 on needing to explicitly state that xml:lang and xml:base and default namespace declarations > >>> It may be helpful to give guidance about the usage of the >>> InclusiveNamespaces PrefixList, especially with default namespaces. >> >> >> The whole purpose of using exclusive XML is to not need to guess >> about what is and is not in the bag of bits being hashed. > > > Right. People need to understand the implications of including or > excluding particular pieces of information from that bag, as per above. > +1 - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 07 14:26:22 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dqb4o-0001jY-PO for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 14:26:22 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA02868 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 14:26:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j67ICU7m042074; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:12:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j67ICUsg042073; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:12:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [63.249.99.114] (dsl2-63-249-92-231.cruzio.com [63.249.92.231]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j67ICR5g042063; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:12:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <7590BCA1-74AA-4E1B-B3D9-CF95680254BC@mnot.net> References: <7590BCA1-74AA-4E1B-B3D9-CF95680254BC@mnot.net> Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:12:25 -0700 To: Mark Nottingham From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: Major backtracking on canonicalization Cc: Atom WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At 1:56 PM -0400 7/7/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: >On 07/07/2005, at 11:36 AM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > >>At 10:23 AM -0400 7/7/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> >>>Are we specifying exclusive c14n with or without comments? My >>>preference would be without. >> >>Without. That is explicitly the default for >>. > >Where does it state that explicitly? "Just as with [XML-C14N] one may use the "#WithComments" parameter to include the serialization of XML comments." Meaning: if you don't include #WithComment, you don't get comments. >There are two identifiers in section four; it would be best to >reference the spec and the applicable identifier by name. Works for me: http://www.w3.org/2001/10/xml-exc-c14n# >Imagine that you sign an entry that relies on an feed-level xml:base >of "http://www.example.com/". There are zillions of external things that might affect the *interpretation* of what is signed. We saw that in the discussion of signing entries with external references. We are signing the bits only, not some interpretation of the bits. That is true for the xml:base, the xml:lang, the xml:something-else, and so on. I have no problem with the implementer's guide (or the signing-and-encrypting guide, if it happens) to talk about the dangers of interpreting things not covered by the signature, but if we start a list in the base spec, readers will assume that the list is exhaustive. We can easily tell now that it won't be. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 07 19:51:26 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dqg9N-0001Ha-I9 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 19:51:26 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA16772 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 19:51:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j67NheCY070111; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 16:43:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j67NheBH070110; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 16:43:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.195]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j67NhcGH070091; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 16:43:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp) Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id j67NhWI04550; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 08:43:32 +0900 (JST) Received: from nodnsquery(133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via csmap id 8c416c54_ef42_11d9_9411_0030482532aa_32268; Fri, 08 Jul 2005 08:55:08 +0900 (JST) Received: from Spooler by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32) ID MO00767F; 8 Jul 05 08:48:53 +0900 Received: from spooler by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32); 8 Jul 05 08:48:38 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (133.2.210.64) by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32) with ESMTP ID MG00767E; 8 Jul 05 08:48:29 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20050708084126.08b22b90@itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp> X-Sender: duerst@itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 08:43:04 +0900 To: Paul Hoffman , Mark Nottingham From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: Major backtracking on canonicalization Cc: Atom WG In-Reply-To: References: <7590BCA1-74AA-4E1B-B3D9-CF95680254BC@mnot.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 03:12 05/07/08, Paul Hoffman wrote: >We are signing the bits only, not some interpretation of the bits. That is true for the xml:base, the xml:lang, the xml:something-else, and so on. Just a clarification that I may have made previously: XML Canonicalization (both kinds) convert to UTF-8 from whatever encoding your document or fragment is, so essentially, we are signing characters, not bits. Regards, Martin. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 07 20:23:04 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dqgdz-00028c-VB for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 20:23:04 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA18697 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:23:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j680F2l1072229; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:15:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j680F2l3072228; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:15:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [63.249.99.114] (dsl2-63-249-92-231.cruzio.com [63.249.92.231]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j680EsPt072214; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:14:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20050708084126.08b22b90@itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp> References: <7590BCA1-74AA-4E1B-B3D9-CF95680254BC@mnot.net> <6.0.0.20.2.20050708084126.08b22b90@itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:14:52 -0700 To: Martin Duerst , Mark Nottingham From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: Major backtracking on canonicalization Cc: Atom WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At 8:43 AM +0900 7/8/05, Martin Duerst wrote: >Just a clarification that I may have made previously: XML Canonicalization >(both kinds) convert to UTF-8 from whatever encoding your document or >fragment is, so essentially, we are signing characters, not bits. Er, right. And we change the bits again to deal with whitespace and attribute ordering and all those other bits. We are signing canonicalized bits. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 07 20:54:58 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dqh8s-0004tt-M1 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 20:54:58 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA20775 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:54:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j680l29h074944; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:47:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j680l2Dv074943; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:47:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j680l2EC074937 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:47:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tbray@textuality.com) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j680l18t003277 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 18:47:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IJA0056NA6C7V@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 18:47:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.102.100] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IJA00EKAA6CAS@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 18:47:00 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 17:46:59 -0700 From: Tim Bray Subject: Atom format progress To: Atom WG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The Atom Format draft was considered by the IESG today, and there remain some outstanding DISCUSS issues, see: https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi? command=print_ballot&ballot_id=1681&filename=draft-ietf-atompub-format https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi? command=view_id&dTag=11964&rfc_flag=0 We need a format-10 draft to incorporate solutions to these; Rob and Mark are on it. The WG has seen all the currently-planned changes, so -10 should have no surprises. Paul is working (a huge amount, you'd be astounded) on interfacing to the IESG. Stand by. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 08 00:53:59 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dqks6-0000zq-RD for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 08 Jul 2005 00:53:59 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA05574 for ; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 00:53:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j684jNDW096789; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 21:45:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j684jNAL096788; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 21:45:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [205.237.194.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j684jMK1096781 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 21:45:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.3] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D105A32E3; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 00:45:21 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <42C9B5C6.1030802@cegetel.net> References: <42C9B5C6.1030802@cegetel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v730) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-2-756799856 Message-Id: <91CCDDA3-0067-4015-ADA7-50E682D0B2C8@mnot.net> Cc: Atom WG X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-01.txt Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 21:45:20 -0700 To: Thomas Broyer X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-2-756799856 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 04/07/2005, at 6:18 PM, Thomas Broyer wrote: > Really good work! Thanks! > Why not using an xs:boolean for fh:stateful? hence allowing values > 0, 1, true and false. I did it this way because I'm not a huge XML Schema fan :) At this point, stateful is effectively xs:boolean with a constraint on the lexical space. I'm not against changing it to '"1" or "true" / "0" or "false", except that this makes the spec more verbose (but that's a pretty minor concern, properly managed). What do others think (in either direction)? > With the -01 draft (it might have been the same within the -00 one > too), one can't reuse the process to link to archives of "Top > Twenty Records" or "Most Popular Items" (e.g. a monthly "Top Twenty > Records" linking to the previous-month "Top"), because of the "a > subscription document whose fh:stateful element contains "false" > MUST NOT contain a fh:prev element". > Why not just stating that if fh:stateful is false then the "prev"- > linked archive feed doesn't not contain a subset of the previous > entries but rather does contain the previous state of the > subscription feed. I.e. the meaning of the fh:prev "link" depends > on the value of fh:stateful. That's interesting, but it somewhat changes the semantics of "prev"; it goes from "where you can find previous entries in a logical feed" to "where you can find an older archive of entries." While these are often the same thing, it might not always be the case; i.e., someone might want to publish a non-time-based feed. So, I'm nervous about having two different semantics for one element, depending upon its context of use. > Also, shouldn't there be a note to invite producers to provide an > atom:link@rel="self" referencing the subscription feed? Agreed. Ideally, Atom would have separate concepts of 'syndication' and 'archive' feeds, and make this recommendation itself. As it is, the semantic of 'self' in an archive feed is a bit fuzzy. > I also repeat my proposal for an identifier different from an URI > for a reader/aggregator to know whether it has already retrieved an > archive document, e.g. using the "updated" date-time of the > "fh:prev"-linked archive feed. > > Example: > > xmlns:history="[TBD]"> > Example Feed > > 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z > > John Doe > > urn:uuid:60a76c80-d399-11d9-b93C-0003939e0af6 > true > > > http://example.org/2003/11/index.atom > > > Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok > > urn:uuid:1225c695-cfb8-4ebb-aaaa-80da344efa6a > 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z > Some text in a new, fresh entry. > > > > > If I retrieved the feed between 2003-11-24T12:00:00Z and > 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z, the fh:prev URI were probably equal to http:// > example.org/2003/10/index.atom (october, not november). However, I > didn't miss any entry. > Using the fh:prev@updated value, I can know that I didn't miss any > entry and that I then don't need to dereference http://example.org/ > 2003/11/index.atom (november, the "new" fh:prev URI) Hmm, that seems awfully complex (and hard to grasp -- but maybe it's just me :) just to avoid a round trip. That 'probably' is also worrying me. How would you express this in the 'reconstructing state' section? Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ --Apple-Mail-2-756799856 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 04/07/2005, at = 6:18 PM, Thomas Broyer wrote:
Really = good work!

Thanks!


Why not using an xs:boolean for fh:stateful? hence = allowing values 0, 1, true and false.

I did it this way because = I'm not a huge XML Schema fan :)

At this point, stateful is = effectively xs:boolean with a constraint on the lexical space. I'm not = against changing it to '"1" or "true" / "0" or "false", except that this = makes the spec more verbose (but that's a pretty minor concern, properly = managed). What do others think (in either direction)?


With the -01 draft (it might have been the = same within the -00 one too), one can't reuse the process to link to = archives of "Top Twenty Records" or "Most Popular Items" (e.g. a monthly = "Top Twenty Records" linking to the previous-month "Top"), because of = the "a subscription document whose fh:stateful element contains "false" = MUST NOT contain a fh:prev element".
Why not just stating that = if fh:stateful is false then the "prev"-linked archive feed doesn't not = contain a subset of the previous entries but rather does contain the = previous state of the subscription feed. I.e. the meaning of the fh:prev = "link" depends on the value of fh:stateful.

That's interesting, but it = somewhat changes the semantics of "prev"; it goes from "where you can = find previous entries in a logical feed" to "where you can find an older = archive of entries." While these are often the same thing, it might not = always be the case; i.e., someone might want to publish a non-time-based = feed.=A0

So, = I'm nervous about having two different semantics for one element, = depending upon its context of use.=A0


Also, shouldn't there be a note to invite = producers to provide an atom:link@rel=3D"self" referencing the = subscription feed?

Agreed. Ideally, Atom would = have separate concepts of 'syndication' and 'archive' feeds, and make = this recommendation itself. As it is, the semantic of 'self' in an = archive feed is a bit fuzzy.=A0


I also repeat my proposal for an = identifier different from an URI for a reader/aggregator to know whether = it has already retrieved an archive document, e.g. using the "updated" = date-time of the "fh:prev"-linked archive = feed.

Example:
=A0 <?xml = version=3D"1.0" encoding=3D"utf-8"?>
=A0 <feed xmlns=3D"http://purl.= org/atom/ns#draft-ietf-atompub-format-09"
=A0 =A0 = xmlns:history=3D"[TBD]">
=A0 =A0 <title>Example = Feed</title>
=A0 =A0 <link href=3D"http://example.org/"/>
=A0 = =A0 <updated>2003-12-13T18:30:02Z</updated>
=A0 =A0 = <author>
=A0 =A0 =A0 <name>John = Doe</name>
=A0 =A0 </author>
=A0 =A0 = <id>urn:uuid:60a76c80-d399-11d9-b93C-0003939e0af6<= /id>
=A0 =A0 = <history:stateful>true</history:stateful>
<!--
added an "updated" attribute with tha atom:updated = value
-->
=A0 =A0 = <history:prev updated=3D"2003-11-24T12:00:00Z">
=A0 =A0 = =A0 http://example.org/2003/11/= index.atom</history:prev>

=A0 =A0 = <entry>
=A0 =A0 =A0 <title>Atom-Powered Robots Run = Amok</title>
=A0 =A0 =A0 <link href=3D"http://example.org/2003= /12/13/robots_here"/>
=A0 =A0 =A0 <id>urn:uuid:1225c695-cfb8-4ebb-aaaa-80da344efa6a&l= t;/id>
=A0 =A0 =A0 = <updated>2003-12-13T18:30:02Z</updated>
=A0 =A0 =A0 = <summary>Some text in a new, fresh = entry.</summary>
=A0 =A0 = </entry>

=A0 = </feed>

If I retrieved the feed between = 2003-11-24T12:00:00Z and 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z, the fh:prev URI were = probably equal to http://example.org/2003/10/= index.atom (october, not november). However, I didn't miss any = entry.
Using the fh:prev@updated value, I can know that I = didn't miss any entry and that I then don't need to dereference http://example.org/2003/11/= index.atom (november, the "new" fh:prev = URI)

Hmm, that seems awfully complex = (and hard to grasp -- but maybe it's just me :) just to avoid a round = trip. That 'probably' is also worrying me. How would you express this in = the 'reconstructing state' section?=A0

Cheers,
=

--
Mark Nottingham =A0 =A0 http://www.mnot.net/
=

= --Apple-Mail-2-756799856-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 08 21:27:56 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dr48K-0004ZJ-3m for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 08 Jul 2005 21:27:56 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA23341 for ; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 21:27:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j691FWJE068674; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 18:15:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j691FWVu068673; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 18:15:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vanadium.sabren.com (vanadium.sabren.com [67.19.173.84]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j691FVmE068666 for ; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 18:15:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.1.117] (cpe-066-057-027-065.nc.res.rr.com [66.57.27.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by vanadium.sabren.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j691JaVr025118 for ; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 21:20:06 -0400 Message-ID: <42CF250A.10606@intertwingly.net> Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 21:14:50 -0400 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050404) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom WG Subject: format-10 draft editorial request References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I truly believe that this request is completely editorial. I would like to request that an attempt be made to ensure that the second "more extensive" example in section 1.1 comply with all SHOULDs. In particular, the feed SHOULD contain a link with a rel='self'. If I find other deviations from the recommended practices, I'll note them here. - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 09 00:56:53 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dr7OS-0000Nz-88 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2005 00:56:48 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA09787 for ; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 00:56:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j694nTUQ088551; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 21:49:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j694nSVc088550; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 21:49:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [205.237.194.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j694nR6k088541 for ; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 21:49:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.3] (sj-ez-63-96-162-1.bea.com [63.96.162.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A81BCA32B1; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 00:49:26 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <42CF250A.10606@intertwingly.net> References: <42CF250A.10606@intertwingly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v730) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Atom WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: format-10 draft editorial request Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 21:33:18 -0700 To: Sam Ruby X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +1 It may be a good idea to change the descriptive text about the examples; e.g., "A brief, single-entry Atom Feed Document" -> "A single-entry Atom Feed Document that conforms to all MUST-level requirements" "A more extensive, single-entry Atom Feed Document" -> "A single- entry Atom Feed Document that conforms to all MUST- and SHOULD-level requirements" On 08/07/2005, at 6:14 PM, Sam Ruby wrote: > > I truly believe that this request is completely editorial. > > I would like to request that an attempt be made to ensure that the > second "more extensive" example in section 1.1 comply with all > SHOULDs. In particular, the feed SHOULD contain a link with a > rel='self'. > > If I find other deviations from the recommended practices, I'll > note them here. > > - Sam Ruby > > > > > -- Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist Office of the CTO BEA Systems -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 09 06:26:18 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DrCXK-0001X5-4X for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2005 06:26:18 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA20099 for ; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 06:26:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j69AIMEO018284; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 03:18:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j69AIMxh018283; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 03:18:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.197]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j69AILTX018245 for ; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 03:18:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 9so274218nzo for ; Sat, 09 Jul 2005 03:18:15 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=YqcajdGk/3rW3AowPcyXodEhVOIKQQWUxuCqZur6tF8no/oTkrccUk7fwtFRoEpEC7ru390c+lfCJWbopQVKZdp8gxTGvpjI3Z+YdEqUjNrdc5lX2fm0pI3Y95J8rPjKPHMdS9wJyIycFeD2DkPfRP71RQFglXHAaGw2ic7Rcus= Received: by 10.36.88.10 with SMTP id l10mr725123nzb; Sat, 09 Jul 2005 03:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.47.13 with HTTP; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 03:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd05070903184b721c4e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 12:18:15 +0200 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: atom-syntax@imc.org, semantic-web@w3.org Subject: Atom for RDF transfer? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j69AILTX018275 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit While everyone's waiting for ratification of the Atom format, maybe there are a few brain-cycles that can be harnessed... What I (and others [1]) am looking for is a standard means of interfacing with an RDF store like Redland or Jena over HTTP. The operations required are: 1. query the store 2. add statements to the store 3. delete statements from the store 4. make an update to the store (5. sync stores) The first of these is reasonably well provided for already with SPARQL. There appears to be some commonality of aproaches to 2, 3 and 4, but no single standard seems yet to have emerged. 5. is something needed sometime before long, but could probably be fulfilled with the other points and an appropriate algorithm (possible approaches at [4],[5]). Now ideally all the operations would be done directly over HTTP, but there are one or two issues, and I'm wondering if the Atom format/protocol could form a consistent, easily implemented lightweight delivery mechanism as an alternative. It'd be tunneling, but without all the WS-* overhead. The interchange format specified for RDF is XML (i.e. RDF/XML) so that's the first hurdle hopped. This kind of thing is being covered to some extent by the W3C Data Access WG (DAWG) and Semantic Web Best Practices and Deployment WG, but they are tied to their charters. A good solution from left-field (built on good standards) could fast-forward development. So first the status quo, as far as I'm aware: 1. ask the store a query The SPARQL protocol and RDF query language [2] is emerging as the standard for queries, i.e. read-only operations. The query language itself is fairly SQL-like. The protocol as it currently stands has a generic WSDL 2.0 expression, but in practice *the* binding so far is to HTTP, using the query itself as a parameter in a GET: GET http://example.com/sparqlendpoint?query=...bunch of sparql... The results are returned as a XML doc in the response body, the format of which will depend on the nature of the query (there's a simple result-set format for SELECTs, RDF/XML for CONSTRUCT etc). The operations of 2, 3 and 4 can be covered by a protocol in a similar fashion: by supplying an RDF graph to add, a graph to delete, or a combined operation for update supplying a graph to delete followed by a graph to add. I'll just expand that a little before describing existing protocol support - 2. add statements to the store Data can be added to an RDF store by supplying a list of statements, that is the graph, as an RDF/XML doc. This is something all triplestores should support. 3. delete statements from the store This is a little trickier, there isn't any operation common to stores that says delete(graph). In practice this may mean listing and deleting the individual statements. I think there may be issues where the graph to delete matches a subgraph in the store where the nodes aren't sufficiently bound to URIs to make matching unambiguous. Frankly I'm not sure, but I don't think it would impact on the protocol. 4. make an update to the store A two phase operation, delete(graphA), add(graphB). It would be nice for this to happen as an atomic transaction. Ok, existing protocols/proposals include the NetAPI [6,7], and Joseki: RDF WebAPI [8] (I think this is currently moving over to SPARQL for queries, not sure about updates). The NetAPI use a two-part mime/multipart message with a HTTP POST, the first containing the graph to delete, the second containing the graph to add. Adding and deleting alone are special cases. (I seem to remember there being some issues relating to the use of mime/multipart around Atom, I can't for the life of me remember what they were). There's also URIQA, which can provide the operations listed, but is more aligned towards working with authoritative sources, i.e. where the host "owns" the resources identified. Technically it looks good, but involves the addition of extra HTTP methods, which has caused some controversy. So how might all this be done in Atom? I don't really know, beyond thinking perhaps that many of the interfacing operations with a triplestore may be exressed nicely as a sequence of entries, content as graphs, each entry representing an add/delete operation. Cheers, Danny. [1] http://lists.gnomehack.com/pipermail/redland-dev/2005-July/001019.html [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/ [3] http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-protocol/ [4] http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Diff [5] http://www.dbin.org/ [6] http://www.w3.org/Submission/2003/SUBM-rdf-netapi-20031002/ [7] http://www.wiwiss.fu-berlin.de/suhl/bizer/rdfapi/tutorial/netapi.html [8] http://www.joseki.org/protocol.html [9] http://sw.nokia.com/uriqa/URIQA.html -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 10 01:14:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DrU8n-0001Na-ES for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 01:14:09 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA18874 for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 01:14:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6A562nW073508; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 22:06:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6A562Cv073507; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 22:06:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [205.237.194.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6A5614V073486 for ; Sat, 9 Jul 2005 22:06:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.3] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D54DA32B4; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 01:05:49 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd05070903184b721c4e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f2ed5cd05070903184b721c4e@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v730) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org, semantic-web@w3.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Atom for RDF transfer? Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 22:05:44 -0700 To: Danny Ayers X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Danny, What does Atom bring to the table here? Sounds like straight REST would do the trick admirably for you... On 09/07/2005, at 3:18 AM, Danny Ayers wrote: > > While everyone's waiting for ratification of the Atom format, maybe > there are a few brain-cycles that can be harnessed... > > What I (and others [1]) am looking for is a standard means of > interfacing with an RDF store like Redland or Jena over HTTP. The > operations required are: > > 1. query the store > 2. add statements to the store > 3. delete statements from the store > 4. make an update to the store > (5. sync stores) > > The first of these is reasonably well provided for already with > SPARQL. There appears to be some commonality of aproaches to 2, 3 and > 4, but no single standard seems yet to have emerged. 5. is something > needed sometime before long, but could probably be fulfilled with the > other points and an appropriate algorithm (possible approaches at > [4],[5]). > > Now ideally all the operations would be done directly over HTTP, but > there are one or two issues, and I'm wondering if the Atom > format/protocol could form a consistent, easily implemented > lightweight delivery mechanism as an alternative. It'd be tunneling, > but without all the WS-* overhead. The interchange format specified > for RDF is XML (i.e. RDF/XML) so that's the first hurdle hopped. > > This kind of thing is being covered to some extent by the W3C Data > Access WG (DAWG) and Semantic Web Best Practices and Deployment WG, > but they are tied to their charters. A good solution from left-field > (built on good standards) could fast-forward development. > > So first the status quo, as far as I'm aware: > > 1. ask the store a query > The SPARQL protocol and RDF query language [2] is emerging as the > standard for queries, i.e. read-only operations. The query language > itself is fairly SQL-like. The protocol as it currently stands has a > generic WSDL 2.0 expression, but in practice *the* binding so far is > to HTTP, using the query itself as a parameter in a GET: > > GET http://example.com/sparqlendpoint?query=...bunch of sparql... > > The results are returned as a XML doc in the response body, the format > of which will depend on the nature of the query (there's a simple > result-set format for SELECTs, RDF/XML for CONSTRUCT etc). > > The operations of 2, 3 and 4 can be covered by a protocol in a similar > fashion: by supplying an RDF graph to add, a graph to delete, or a > combined operation for update supplying a graph to delete followed by > a graph to add. I'll just expand that a little before describing > existing protocol support - > > 2. add statements to the store > Data can be added to an RDF store by supplying a list of statements, > that is the graph, as an RDF/XML doc. This is something all > triplestores should support. > > 3. delete statements from the store > This is a little trickier, there isn't any operation common to stores > that says delete(graph). In practice this may mean listing and > deleting the individual statements. I think there may be issues where > the graph to delete matches a subgraph in the store where the nodes > aren't sufficiently bound to URIs to make matching unambiguous. > Frankly I'm not sure, but I don't think it would impact on the > protocol. > > 4. make an update to the store > A two phase operation, delete(graphA), add(graphB). It would be nice > for this to happen as an atomic transaction. > > Ok, existing protocols/proposals include the NetAPI [6,7], and Joseki: > RDF WebAPI [8] (I think this is currently moving over to SPARQL for > queries, not sure about updates). > > The NetAPI use a two-part mime/multipart message with a HTTP POST, the > first containing the graph to delete, the second containing the graph > to add. Adding and deleting alone are special cases. (I seem to > remember there being some issues relating to the use of mime/multipart > around Atom, I can't for the life of me remember what they were). > > There's also URIQA, which can provide the operations listed, but is > more aligned towards working with authoritative sources, i.e. where > the host "owns" the resources identified. Technically it looks good, > but involves the addition of extra HTTP methods, which has caused some > controversy. > > So how might all this be done in Atom? I don't really know, beyond > thinking perhaps that many of the interfacing operations with a > triplestore may be exressed nicely as a sequence of entries, content > as graphs, each entry representing an add/delete operation. > > Cheers, > Danny. > > [1] http://lists.gnomehack.com/pipermail/redland-dev/2005-July/ > 001019.html > [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/ > [3] http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-protocol/ > [4] http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Diff > [5] http://www.dbin.org/ > [6] http://www.w3.org/Submission/2003/SUBM-rdf-netapi-20031002/ > [7] http://www.wiwiss.fu-berlin.de/suhl/bizer/rdfapi/tutorial/ > netapi.html > [8] http://www.joseki.org/protocol.html > [9] http://sw.nokia.com/uriqa/URIQA.html > > -- > > http://dannyayers.com > > > -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 10 05:05:50 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DrXkz-00056F-W5 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 05:05:50 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA19056 for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 05:05:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6A8s8tA063470; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 01:54:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6A8s8tF063469; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 01:54:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.dnainternet.net (smtp2.dnainternet.net [62.240.72.111]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6A8s7wb063454 for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 01:54:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hsivonen@iki.fi) Received: from 217-140-228-30.adsl-net.finnetcom.net ([217.140.228.30]:51353 "EHLO [217.140.228.30]" TLS-CIPHER: ) by smtp2.dnainternet.net with ESMTP id S1228973AbVGJIyF (ORCPT ); Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:54:05 +0300 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <5af7d60d07729e043252107136629ce2@iki.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: Atom WG From: Henri Sivonen Subject: RNG validators capable of fully using the Atom schema? Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:53:48 +0300 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm wondering which validator was used for testing the Atom RNG+Schematron schema. Which validators support Compact Syntax with embedded Schematron? I am particularly interested in Java solutions. (Specifically, I would like to fully support the Atom schema in http://hsivonen.iki.fi/validator/ ) -- Henri Sivonen hsivonen@iki.fi http://hsivonen.iki.fi/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 10 18:36:46 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DrkPl-0000ro-O2 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 18:36:46 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA29722 for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 18:36:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6AMT1Qf002454; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 15:29:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6AMT1uW002453; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 15:29:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.192]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6AMT0JS002445 for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 15:29:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i11so353720nzi for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 15:28:54 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=lo1ppw5FNNd1jqx5MPqlXmaGR5ftWs6p67jsd0iR+Grjm4uNX7LKG85QRGOrLSMSP2jk40OZ7fGKMqt5in6zwwMkdbb2KV3l8MN3yo+DOVgjMgi44a5G6bBfO2DW+5ysWoLNQnkNIVVxXHwEYO7sjdRowVg6QC77NX/SD/J9znM= Received: by 10.36.36.10 with SMTP id j10mr918249nzj; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 15:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.47.13 with HTTP; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 15:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd05071015286d93562e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 00:28:54 +0200 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Atom for RDF transfer? Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org, semantic-web@w3.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <1f2ed5cd05070903184b721c4e@mail.gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6AMT0JS002448 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/10/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Hi Danny, > > What does Atom bring to the table here? Sounds like straight REST > would do the trick admirably for you... Maybe, hopefully. I'm not sure whether an update (delete graphA, add graphB) could be better done with more 'memory' (state, I guess) that a series of simple metadata-stamped entries could supply. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 11 04:04:15 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DrtGx-0001gp-C6 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 04:04:15 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA20500 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 04:04:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6B7rlZN016437; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 00:53:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6B7rl51016436; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 00:53:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail08.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail08.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.24]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6B7rk9s016346 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 00:53:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 45314 messnum 5389218 invoked from network[83.70.29.246/83-70-29-246.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 11 Jul 2005 07:53:39 -0000 Received: from 83-70-29-246.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (83.70.29.246) by mail08.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 45314) with SMTP; 11 Jul 2005 07:53:39 -0000 Message-ID: <42D22580.6070504@dehora.net> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:53:36 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom WG Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-01.txt References: <42C9B5C6.1030802@cegetel.net> <91CCDDA3-0067-4015-ADA7-50E682D0B2C8@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <91CCDDA3-0067-4015-ADA7-50E682D0B2C8@mnot.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.92.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Nottingham wrote: > > On 04/07/2005, at 6:18 PM, Thomas Broyer wrote: > >> Really good work! > > > Thanks! > > > >> Why not using an xs:boolean for fh:stateful? hence allowing values 0, >> 1, true and false. > > > I did it this way because I'm not a huge XML Schema fan :) > > At this point, stateful is effectively xs:boolean with a constraint on > the lexical space. I'm not against changing it to '"1" or "true" / "0" > or "false", except that this makes the spec more verbose (but that's a > pretty minor concern, properly managed). What do others think (in either > direction)? 1. I don't want to have to link to an XSD library in my XML toolchain just to process true/false in an attribute. 2. I don't want to hack some code together to recognize a single XSD primitive just because I don't want to link to an XSD library. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 11 04:24:51 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Drtat-0006HO-2A for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 04:24:51 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA21492 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 04:24:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6B88aZn023719; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 01:08:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6B88Zs7023718; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 01:08:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail06.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail06.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.22]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6B88X2i023673 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 01:08:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 67738 messnum 2893850 invoked from network[83.70.29.246/83-70-29-246.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 11 Jul 2005 08:08:27 -0000 Received: from 83-70-29-246.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (83.70.29.246) by mail06.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 67738) with SMTP; 11 Jul 2005 08:08:27 -0000 Message-ID: <42D228F9.4020803@dehora.net> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:08:25 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-types@alvestrand.no CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Old application/atom+xml issues References: <20050705140314.GW29203@markbaker.ca> <68fba5c5050705073343e8a991@mail.gmail.com> <20050705162213.GX29203@markbaker.ca> In-Reply-To: <20050705162213.GX29203@markbaker.ca> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.92.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Baker wrote: > IMO, it matters not that no spec prescribes the use of this media type > for Atom 0.3 feeds. What matters is whether it's in use today, which > we seem to agree is the case. This seems an important piece of > information that implementors should know, which is my motivation for > asking that it be called out in the "interoperability considerations" > section of the template. Something like; > > Interoperability considerations: Some existing agents and feeds that > support the Atom 0.3 specification, make use of this media > type despite Atom 0.3 not being compatible with Atom 1.0. In the spirit of that point about 0.3 being served with the media type being an interop issue - what are the behaviors which will lead to interoperation? The above text is only leads one to ask "and I should do what here?" and doesn't say anything useful about what to do. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 11 10:08:32 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DryxU-0003Cl-4B for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:08:32 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA13560 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:08:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6BDxRbb048097; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 06:59:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6BDxRaj048096; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 06:59:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vanadium.sabren.com (vanadium.sabren.com [67.19.173.84]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6BDxPj8048090 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 06:59:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.1.112] (cpe-066-057-027-065.nc.res.rr.com [66.57.27.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by vanadium.sabren.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6BE4IMK007728; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:04:18 -0400 Message-ID: <42D27B37.5010204@intertwingly.net> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:59:19 -0400 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050404) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= CC: ietf-types@alvestrand.no, atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Old application/atom+xml issues References: <20050705140314.GW29203@markbaker.ca> <68fba5c5050705073343e8a991@mail.gmail.com> <20050705162213.GX29203@markbaker.ca> <42D228F9.4020803@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: <42D228F9.4020803@dehora.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id KAA13560 Bill de h=D3ra wrote: > Mark Baker wrote: >=20 >=20 >>IMO, it matters not that no spec prescribes the use of this media type >>for Atom 0.3 feeds. What matters is whether it's in use today, which >>we seem to agree is the case. This seems an important piece of >>information that implementors should know, which is my motivation for >>asking that it be called out in the "interoperability considerations" >>section of the template. Something like; >> >> Interoperability considerations: Some existing agents and feeds that >> support the Atom 0.3 specification, make use of this media >> type despite Atom 0.3 not being compatible with Atom 1.0. >=20 > In the spirit of that point about 0.3 being served with the media type > being an interop issue - what are the behaviors which will lead to > interoperation? The above text is only leads one to ask "and I should d= o > what here?" and doesn't say anything useful about what to do. I'll also point out that there are atom 0.3 feeds being served with a=20 mime type of text/html. And undoubtably there will be atom 1.0 feeds so=20 served. The most we can do is to say that such things are invalid, and to work=20 with the producers to correct this. The majority of the existing atom 0.3 feeds are produced by a relatively=20 few producers. I am confident that these producers will convert over=20 quickly. I am also committed to getting the word out quickly that atom 0.3 feeds=20 are not to be considered valid. In particular, I plan to update the=20 feedvalidator to note this as a problem (first as a warning, and later I=20 will change this to an error). - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 11 10:52:57 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DrzeT-00067x-Cl for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:52:57 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA17382 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:52:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6BEiak1052009; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:44:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6BEialJ052008; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:44:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bork.markbaker.ca (static-80-155.dsl.cuic.ca [216.126.80.155] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6BEiZ8i052001 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:44:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from distobj@acm.org) Received: from mbaker by bork.markbaker.ca with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1DrzXU-0001TY-00; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:45:44 -0400 Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:45:44 -0400 From: Mark Baker To: ietf-types@alvestrand.no, atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Old application/atom+xml issues Message-ID: <20050711144544.GY29203@markbaker.ca> References: <20050705140314.GW29203@markbaker.ca> <68fba5c5050705073343e8a991@mail.gmail.com> <20050705162213.GX29203@markbaker.ca> <42D228F9.4020803@dehora.net> <42D27B37.5010204@intertwingly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42D27B37.5010204@intertwingly.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Mon, Jul 11, 2005 at 09:59:19AM -0400, Sam Ruby wrote: > The most we can do is to say that such things are invalid, and to work > with the producers to correct this. Sounds good to me. > The majority of the existing atom 0.3 feeds are produced by a relatively > few producers. I am confident that these producers will convert over > quickly. > > I am also committed to getting the word out quickly that atom 0.3 feeds > are not to be considered valid. In particular, I plan to update the > feedvalidator to note this as a problem (first as a warning, and later I > will change this to an error). Nice. Thanks for your vigilance, Sam. Mark. -- Mark Baker. Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA. http://www.markbaker.ca Coactus; Web-inspired integration strategies http://www.coactus.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 11 11:52:18 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ds0Zt-0000Hx-8t for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:52:18 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA23235 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:52:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6BFfVuS057484; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:41:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6BFfVwb057483; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:41:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail01.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail01.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.17]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6BFfUoY057472 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:41:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 2603 messnum 7059327 invoked from network[83.70.29.246/83-70-29-246.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 11 Jul 2005 15:41:25 -0000 Received: from 83-70-29-246.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (83.70.29.246) by mail01.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 2603) with SMTP; 11 Jul 2005 15:41:25 -0000 Message-ID: <42D29321.2090303@dehora.net> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:41:21 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-types@alvestrand.no CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Old application/atom+xml issues References: <20050705140314.GW29203@markbaker.ca> <68fba5c5050705073343e8a991@mail.gmail.com> <20050705162213.GX29203@markbaker.ca> <42D228F9.4020803@dehora.net> <42D27B37.5010204@intertwingly.net> <20050711144544.GY29203@markbaker.ca> In-Reply-To: <20050711144544.GY29203@markbaker.ca> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.92.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Baker wrote: > On Mon, Jul 11, 2005 at 09:59:19AM -0400, Sam Ruby wrote: > >>The most we can do is to say that such things are invalid, and to work >>with the producers to correct this. > > > Sounds good to me. > > >>The majority of the existing atom 0.3 feeds are produced by a relatively >>few producers. I am confident that these producers will convert over >>quickly. >> >>I am also committed to getting the word out quickly that atom 0.3 feeds >>are not to be considered valid. In particular, I plan to update the >>feedvalidator to note this as a problem (first as a warning, and later I >>will change this to an error). > > > Nice. Thanks for your vigilance, Sam. What Mark said. Now, that's the world as it might be outside the spec. There is still proposed spec text, which I suggest is amended as follows: [[[ Interoperability considerations: Some existing agents and feeds that support the Atom 0.3 specification make use of this media type despite Atom 0.3 not being compatible with Atom 1.0. Such feeds SHOULD be considered invalid Atom 1.0. ]]] cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 11 13:24:01 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ds20f-0001FS-CN for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:24:01 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA03091 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:23:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6BHAo8A065019; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:10:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6BHAoqH065018; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:10:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from xbox.wkearney.com (xbox.wkearney.com [66.92.145.79]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6BHAmDC064990 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:10:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wkearney@syndic8.com) Received: from media (media.wkearney.com [192.168.12.32]) by xbox.wkearney.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 20F6EBC4EC for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:10:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <051c01c5863b$78649fa0$1ecffea9@wkearney.com> From: "Bill Kearney" Cc: References: <20050705140314.GW29203@markbaker.ca> <68fba5c5050705073343e8a991@mail.gmail.com> <20050705162213.GX29203@markbaker.ca> <42D228F9.4020803@dehora.net> <42D27B37.5010204@intertwingly.net> <20050711144544.GY29203@markbaker.ca> <42D29321.2090303@dehora.net> Subject: Re: Old application/atom+xml issues Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:10:28 -0400 Organization: http://www.ideaspace.net/users/wkearney/foaf.xrdf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > [[[ > Interoperability considerations: Some existing agents and feeds that > support the Atom 0.3 specification make use of this media type despite > Atom 0.3 not being compatible with Atom 1.0. Such feeds SHOULD be > considered invalid Atom 1.0. > ]]] Seems reasonable. When 1.0 goes final we'll be flipping the switch on Syndic8 to start requiring it for a valid listing. Not en-masse but in pretty short order. No sense "freaking anyone out" but we're not going to go coddling things for very long. Besides, all this is code or template driven and is often quite easy to update. It's being firm about pushing the various things to update that's necessary. And NOT wasting inordinate amounts of time and message threads whinging about popular tools or sites that "can't" be updated. Tough, get with it. -Bill Kearney Syndic8.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 11 14:17:47 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ds2qh-0006Es-4U for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:17:47 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA06404 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:17:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6BI64wx070964; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:06:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6BI64q2070963; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:06:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6BI628H070955 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:06:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i35so883891wra for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:05:57 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=rXK1Ud0hsrcnVwt3w67+mPVZqnLg5lnRCvELn0W9NyJNDxSlZRV/HgPl4mnQy1zAcW4kAjKFHiSYcIJvlSHR3Cq/kZwU9JnGSo8sfnMJoETCcyoHoXER6VW94dvAyeKqyYSbRPa5Ws6ALbVtKMclwQOqFSbeQBXhpAinStykfyM= Received: by 10.54.32.69 with SMTP id f69mr2691375wrf; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.71.13 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c505071111056fc8639a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:05:26 -0400 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: Robert Sayre To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= Subject: Re: Old application/atom+xml issues Cc: ietf-types@alvestrand.no, atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <42D29321.2090303@dehora.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050705140314.GW29203@markbaker.ca> <68fba5c5050705073343e8a991@mail.gmail.com> <20050705162213.GX29203@markbaker.ca> <42D228F9.4020803@dehora.net> <42D27B37.5010204@intertwingly.net> <20050711144544.GY29203@markbaker.ca> <42D29321.2090303@dehora.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6BI638H070958 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > What Mark said. Now, that's the world as it might be outside the spec. > There is still proposed spec text There are also draft-05, draft-06, draft-07, draft-08, and draft-09 feeds in the wild, being produced by people who aren't WG members. There are RSS feeds served as application/atom+xml. All of these things are obviously invalid Atom 1.0, and MUST be considered so, as they do not reside in the correct namespace. Someone who's read the spec is in no danger of mistaking an Atom 0.3 feed for an Atom 1.0, and no software that bothers to check the namespace of the root element will be fooled. I worry that any statement like Bill's suggested text will confer legitimacy on Atom 0.3 as long as the RFC is available. *Every* current implementor is aware of the issue, so the short term benefit of such text is pretty much nil. Long term, the text will actually be harmful. So, -1 to mentioning Atom 0.3 at all. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 11 14:31:27 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ds33u-00015w-HT for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:31:27 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA07536 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:31:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6BIPkkT072465; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:25:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6BIPkTa072464; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:25:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6BIPjkw072451; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:25:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from karl@w3.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 046FE4EF49; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:25:44 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: References: <7590BCA1-74AA-4E1B-B3D9-CF95680254BC@mnot.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v730) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Mark Nottingham , Atom WG From: Karl Dubost Subject: Re: Major backtracking on canonicalization Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:25:55 -0400 To: Paul Hoffman X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6BIPkkw072452 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id OAA07536 Le 05-07-07 =E0 14:12, Paul Hoffman a =E9crit : >>> Without. That is explicitly the default for >> 2002/REC-xml-exc-c14n-20020718/>. >>> >> >> Where does it state that explicitly? >> > > "Just as with [XML-C14N] one may use the "#WithComments" parameter =20 > to include the serialization of XML comments." Meaning: if you =20 > don't include #WithComment, you don't get comments. Hmmmm. not sure. [[[ 4. Use in XML Security Exclusive Canonicalization may be used as a Transform or =20 CanonicalizationMethod algorithm in XML Digital Signature [XML-DSig] =20 and XML Encryption [XML-Enc]. Identifier: http://www.w3.org/2001/10/xml-exc-c14n# http://www.w3.org/2001/10/xml-exc-c14n#WithComments Just as with [XML-C14N] one may use the "#WithComments" parameter to =20 include the serialization of XML comments. This algorithm also takes =20 an optional explicit parameter of an empty InclusiveNamespaces =20 element with a PrefixList attribute. The value of this attribute, =20 which may be null, is a white space delimited list of namespace =20 prefixes, and where #default indicates the default namespace, to be =20 handled as per [XML-C14N]. The list is in NMTOKENS format (a white =20 space separated list). ]]] - http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/REC-xml-exc-c14n-20020718/#sec-Intro I read Just as with [XML-C14N] one may use the "#WithComments" parameter to include the serialization of XML comments. So it's a MAY, but it doesn't say that when the parameter is not here =20 that there's a MUST NOT include them. Going a bit further, because it is said "Just as with [XML-C14N]". I =20 follow the link [[[ The second parameter of input to the XML canonicalization method is a =20 boolean flag indicating whether or not comments should be included in =20 the canonical form output by the XML canonicalization method. If a =20 canonical form contains comments corresponding to the comment nodes =20 in the input node-set, the result is called canonical XML with =20 comments. Note that the XPath data model does not create comment =20 nodes for comments appearing within the document type declaration =20 (DTD). Implementations are REQUIRED to be capable of producing =20 canonical XML excluding all comments that may have appeared in the =20 input document or document subset. Support for canonical XML with =20 comments is RECOMMENDED. ]]] - http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/REC-xml-c14n-20010315#DataModel ok, so it's not really a default feature/behaviour but it seems =20 something like a flag that you have to give. --=20 Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 11 15:37:49 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ds469-0003Ek-2r for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:37:49 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14845 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:37:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6BJPGpP079507; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:25:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6BJPGpp079506; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:25:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vanadium.sabren.com (vanadium.sabren.com [67.19.173.84]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6BJPFQ5079488 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:25:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.1.103] (cpe-066-057-027-065.nc.res.rr.com [66.57.27.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by vanadium.sabren.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6BJU3v0013023; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:30:04 -0400 Message-ID: <42D2C78E.7000702@intertwingly.net> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:25:02 -0400 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050404) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Sayre CC: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= , ietf-types@alvestrand.no, atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Old application/atom+xml issues References: <20050705140314.GW29203@markbaker.ca> <68fba5c5050705073343e8a991@mail.gmail.com> <20050705162213.GX29203@markbaker.ca> <42D228F9.4020803@dehora.net> <42D27B37.5010204@intertwingly.net> <20050711144544.GY29203@markbaker.ca> <42D29321.2090303@dehora.net> <68fba5c505071111056fc8639a@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <68fba5c505071111056fc8639a@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Sayre wrote: > > So, -1 to mentioning Atom 0.3 at all. I agree with Robert. Note how Atom 0.2 isn't a problem at all... we can (and will) do the same thing with Atom 0.3. - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 11 16:08:46 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ds4a6-00058v-NJ for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:08:46 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA20942 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:08:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6BJwsmE082166; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:58:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6BJwsHx082165; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:58:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail10.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail10.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.26]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6BJwqij082147 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:58:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 61929 messnum 6684551 invoked from network[83.70.29.246/83-70-29-246.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 11 Jul 2005 19:58:46 -0000 Received: from 83-70-29-246.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (83.70.29.246) by mail10.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 61929) with SMTP; 11 Jul 2005 19:58:46 -0000 Message-ID: <42D2CF72.5090001@dehora.net> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:58:42 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-types@alvestrand.no CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Old application/atom+xml issues References: <20050705140314.GW29203@markbaker.ca> <68fba5c5050705073343e8a991@mail.gmail.com> <20050705162213.GX29203@markbaker.ca> <42D228F9.4020803@dehora.net> <42D27B37.5010204@intertwingly.net> <20050711144544.GY29203@markbaker.ca> <42D29321.2090303@dehora.net> <68fba5c505071111056fc8639a@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <68fba5c505071111056fc8639a@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.92.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Sayre wrote: > I worry that any statement like Bill's suggested text will confer > legitimacy on Atom 0.3 as long as the RFC is available. *Every* > current implementor is aware of the issue, so the short term benefit > of such text is pretty much nil. Long term, the text will actually be > harmful. +1 to this sentiment - I take it this means we're saying no to the interop text in the spec? From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 11 16:18:44 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ds4jk-0003fV-Kz for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:18:44 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA25893 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:18:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6BKAVg2083239; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:10:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6BKAVNb083237; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:10:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vanadium.sabren.com (vanadium.sabren.com [67.19.173.84]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6BKAU7t083230 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:10:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.1.103] (cpe-066-057-027-065.nc.res.rr.com [66.57.27.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by vanadium.sabren.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6BKFPXC017659; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:15:26 -0400 Message-ID: <42D2D230.8080001@intertwingly.net> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:10:24 -0400 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050404) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: FormatTests Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/FormatTests I've taken a pass at enumerating the test cases required to validate Atom 1.0, based on the presumption that things are not going to change too drastically from draft-ietf-atompub-format-09. Undoubtedly there are typos, bugs, omissions, and there might even be an occasion or two where I have been overzealous. My experience has been that this is only a starter set at best, as the set of possible errors that people will attempt is well beyond anything that one can possibly anticipate. Corrections welcome. - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 11 19:56:12 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ds88C-0000tB-8p for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:56:12 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA09027 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:56:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6BNUDMi098882; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:30:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6BNUDRb098881; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:30:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6BNUC4q098873 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:30:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i1so457007nzh for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:30:06 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=LJluysL8wBhsLN9pWhqzycXFBj51agDmwqfCUu6ujBo8H6B+XLLEOlXTPg8t3JrUeSsJliTY5MnsO6eeOkMoupyJbKJnSxgIbN1wi15N/K3lKpipn7uk79Brrvu7VaH4vv/EngveRPiewopM5cxWd5Jm40Fn05p8L7BvUeP7e4w= Received: by 10.36.50.18 with SMTP id x18mr1159801nzx; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:30:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 10sm2196408nzo.2005.07.11.16.30.06; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:30:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42D300F6.8090206@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:29:58 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: More while we're waiting discussion References: <42D2D230.8080001@intertwingly.net> In-Reply-To: <42D2D230.8080001@intertwingly.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While we're waiting for more feedback on the format spec, I've been stewing over a number of extension ideas.... whatcha think? The first is rather simple. It defines an expires element that can be applied to a feed or an entry. I have described the basics @ http://www.snellspace.com/wp/?p=174 but am reconsidering that blog entries description of how an expires element on the feed interacts with an expires element in an entry within the feed. The element is a Date construct that specifies the instant (inclusive) that the entry or feed "expires". This is useful for feeds or entries that contain time-sensitive content -- such as special offerings from e-commerce sites, "top-ten" lists, etc. ... 2005-07-12T12:00:00Z ... 2005-07-12T12:00:00Z The second extension is a comments link type that allows an entry to be associated with a separate feed containing comments. It is described @ http://www.snellspace.com/wp/?p=185. There is an existing RSS-based equivalent already in use described @ http://www.sellsbrothers.com/spout/#exposingRssComments. It would be possible to reuse that existing mechanism but it's rather specific to RSS. The third is a non-RDF adaptation of the Creative Commons RSS 1.0 Module that uses the Atom link element and provides a machine readable license for entries and feeds. It is described @ http://www.snellspace.com/wp/?p=184. {URI} {URI} Thoughts? - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 11 21:28:59 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ds9Zz-0007sd-1S for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:28:59 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA13944 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:28:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6C1I1tm009604; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:18:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6C1I1vk009603; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:18:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [10.20.30.249] (dsl2-63-249-92-231.cruzio.com [63.249.92.231]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6C1HrO1009585; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:17:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <7590BCA1-74AA-4E1B-B3D9-CF95680254BC@mnot.net> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:10:19 -0700 To: Karl Dubost From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: Major backtracking on canonicalization Cc: Mark Nottingham , Atom WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At 2:25 PM -0400 7/11/05, Karl Dubost wrote: >I read > Just as with [XML-C14N] one may use the "#WithComments" > parameter to include the serialization of XML comments. > >So it's a MAY, but it doesn't say that when the parameter is not >here that there's a MUST NOT include them. Hmmmm, that's not how I read it at all. Given that we are talking about a canonicalization spec that has to say exactly what is and is not in the converted, I would find it surprising to have something that means "this may or may not appear in the output, you don't know". >ok, so it's not really a default feature/behaviour but it seems >something like a flag that you have to give. Agree. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 12 04:34:57 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DsGED-0000g3-9q for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 04:34:57 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA01168 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 04:34:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6C8OvoL014106; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 01:24:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6C8OveL014105; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 01:24:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6C8OtY9014059 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 01:24:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from derhoermi@gmx.net) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 12 Jul 2005 08:24:49 -0000 Received: from dsl-084-056-226-103.arcor-ip.net (EHLO localhost) [84.56.226.103] by mail.gmx.net (mp025) with SMTP; 12 Jul 2005 10:24:49 +0200 X-Authenticated: #723575 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann To: Henri Sivonen Cc: Atom WG Subject: Re: RNG validators capable of fully using the Atom schema? Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:24:47 +0200 Message-ID: <42d87e10.68051671@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> References: <5af7d60d07729e043252107136629ce2@iki.fi> In-Reply-To: <5af7d60d07729e043252107136629ce2@iki.fi> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id EAA01168 * Henri Sivonen wrote: >I'm wondering which validator was used for testing the Atom=20 >RNG+Schematron schema. Which validators support Compact Syntax with=20 >embedded Schematron? I am particularly interested in Java solutions. http://www.topologi.com/products/validator/ is said to support it. --=20 Bj=F6rn H=F6hrmann =B7 mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de =B7 http://bjoern.hoehr= mann.de Weinh. Str. 22 =B7 Telefon: +49(0)621/4309674 =B7 http://www.bjoernsworld= .de 68309 Mannheim =B7 PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 =B7 http://www.websitedev.d= e/=20 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 12 12:05:21 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DsNG5-0007aV-6H for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:05:21 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA11966 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:05:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6CFrR51049674; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 08:53:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6CFrR4K049673; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 08:53:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mailhost.netweaver.net (mailhost.netweaver.net [213.160.118.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6CFrO2U049664 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 08:53:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davep@dpawson.co.uk) Received: (qmail 16917 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2005 15:53:23 -0000 Received: from dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk (HELO ?192.168.2.7?) (davep@dpawson.co.uk@81.6.251.105) by 0 with SMTP; 12 Jul 2005 15:53:23 -0000 Subject: Re: RNG validators capable of fully using the Atom schema? From: Dave Pawson Reply-To: davep@dpawson.co.uk To: Bjoern Hoehrmann Cc: Henri Sivonen , Atom WG In-Reply-To: <42d87e10.68051671@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> References: <5af7d60d07729e043252107136629ce2@iki.fi> <42d87e10.68051671@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:53:23 +0100 Message-Id: <1121183603.3403.13.camel@marge> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.2 (2.2.2-5) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 2005-07-12 at 10:24 +0200, Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: > * Henri Sivonen wrote: > >I'm wondering which validator was used for testing the Atom > >RNG+Schematron schema. Which validators support Compact Syntax with > >embedded Schematron? I am particularly interested in Java solutions. > > http://www.topologi.com/products/validator/ is said to support it. I used Norm's relax-ng schema + msv. Seems good to me? http://www.dpawson.co.uk/nodesets/nodesets.xml You tell me if it's bad[==invalid] The spec doesn't ... in language I understand. -- Regards, Dave Pawson XSLT + Docbook FAQ http://www.dpawson.co.uk From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 12 12:31:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DsNf3-0004pu-2j for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:31:09 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA13945 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:31:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6CGGWNN053606; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:16:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6CGGWK6053605; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:16:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6CGGWZl053597 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:16:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ndw@nwalsh.com) Received: from phys-bur-1 ([129.148.9.72]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6CGGTGY020445 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:16:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.bur-mail1.east.sun.com by bur-mail1.east.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0IJI00K01VPKU5@bur-mail1.east.sun.com> (original mail from ndw@nwalsh.com) for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:16:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (vpn-129-150-33-62.Central.Sun.COM [129.150.33.62]) by bur-mail1.east.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0IJI009M0VVGAV@bur-mail1.east.sun.com> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:16:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ndw by localhost with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DsNQn-0000Ob-VT for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:16:25 -0400 X-URL: http://nwalsh.com/ Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:16:25 -0400 From: Norman Walsh Subject: Re: RNG validators capable of fully using the Atom schema? In-reply-to: <5af7d60d07729e043252107136629ce2@iki.fi> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Message-id: <87y88chuee.fsf@nwalsh.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) Emacs/21.4 (gnu/linux) References: <5af7d60d07729e043252107136629ce2@iki.fi> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable / Henri Sivonen was heard to say: | I'm wondering which validator was used for testing the Atom | RNG+Schematron schema. Which validators support Compact Syntax with | embedded Schematron? I am particularly interested in Java solutions. I use Kohsuke's MSV. (msv.dev.java.net) Be seeing you, norm =2D-=20 Norman Walsh | Everything should be made as simple as http://nwalsh.com/ | possible, but no simpler. --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBC0+zZOyltUcwYWjsRAuR3AJ9ZSTCzC0WyDkmYDh9aUWrB+7lZpACdHuKb S8gbIha2e2zbPOFyZnrVnig= =yd5S -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 12 13:31:34 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DsObW-00053E-RD for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:31:34 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA18200 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:31:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6CHMlte062280; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:22:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6CHMlo7062279; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:22:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mailhost.netweaver.net (mailhost.netweaver.net [213.160.118.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6CHMjf2062272 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:22:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davep@dpawson.co.uk) Received: (qmail 4570 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2005 17:22:44 -0000 Received: from dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk (HELO ?192.168.2.7?) (davep@dpawson.co.uk@81.6.251.105) by 0 with SMTP; 12 Jul 2005 17:22:44 -0000 Subject: Re: RNG validators capable of fully using the Atom schema? From: Dave Pawson Reply-To: davep@dpawson.co.uk To: Norman Walsh Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <87y88chuee.fsf@nwalsh.com> References: <5af7d60d07729e043252107136629ce2@iki.fi> <87y88chuee.fsf@nwalsh.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:22:44 +0100 Message-Id: <1121188964.3403.18.camel@marge> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.2 (2.2.2-5) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 2005-07-12 at 12:16 -0400, Norman Walsh wrote: > / Henri Sivonen was heard to say: > | I'm wondering which validator was used for testing the Atom > | RNG+Schematron schema. Which validators support Compact Syntax with > | embedded Schematron? I am particularly interested in Java solutions. > > I use Kohsuke's MSV. (msv.dev.java.net) > > Be seeing you, > norm > Make sure you pick up the overnight builds. Sun seem lax on keeping the main feed up to date. regards DaveP From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 12 14:48:32 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DsPo0-00023i-Fx for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:48:32 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA23352 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:48:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6CIccXT067559; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 11:38:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6CIcc9i067558; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 11:38:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6CIcamS067531 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 11:38:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 12 Jul 2005 18:38:26 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-226-158.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.226.158] by mail.gmx.net (mp034) with SMTP; 12 Jul 2005 20:38:26 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 20:42:42 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: More while we're waiting discussion Message-ID: <20050712184242.GA8994@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <42D300F6.8090206@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42D300F6.8090206@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id OAA23352 * James M Snell [2005-07-12 02:00]: > The second extension is a comments link type that allows an > entry to be associated with a separate feed containing > comments. [=E2=80=A6] >=20 > > > > > What I don=E2=80=99t like about this idea is that if a thread-aware aggregator wants to keep up with *all* discussion on a weblog, it will have to poll any number of comments-for-entry-X feeds per single main newsfeed in the general case =E2=80=93 in the case of a typical weblog encountered in practice, that would be several hundred. Clearly, this is untenable. So I would prefer to define an extension element that expresses =E2=80=9Cthis entry is a comment, posted in reply to the entry with the atom:id value given herein,=E2=80=9D and define a feed-level atom:link/@rel value that points to such an all-comments feed. A thread-aware aggregator can then stay updated on any comments posted anywhere throughout the site by polling a single extra feed. Non-thread-aware aggregators can still get some use out of such a comments feed. Thinking about it, entirely unaware aggregators would probably get less out of per-entry feeds than a single unified feed =E2=80=93 they=E2=80=99d need to be subscribed to each entry separately, hugely cluttering the feedlist. If you disregard unaware aggregators, you could even serve only a single feed to aggregators which contains both the actual weblog posts and their comments. Thinking about it, there=E2=80=99s no reason you can=E2=80=99t offer both= : with another feed-level atom:link/@rel value you could point thread-aware aggregators to =E2=80=9Cthe same feed, but with comments included inline,=E2=80=9D so these only need to poll a single feed to keep up with what=E2=80=99s happening. Of course, none of these propositions are preclude each other. Providers may also choose to generate per-entry comment feeds, but only for a limited amount of new posts, and might want to expire old per-entry comment feeds by returning 410. This would be a clear and easy fit in the case of the popular scenario where old entries get closed against comments to reduce the site=E2=80=99s linkspamming profile. Or aggregators may choose not to stay aware of new comments for entries posted long ago. So I=E2=80=99m not arguing that per-entry comments feeds should in any way be precluded by the spec, because there=E2=80=99s no reason to do that. But overall, I think defining an extension element as outlined above and providing a unified feed of comments for all entries makes the most sense. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 12 15:20:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DsQIZ-0005Xu-OH for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:20:07 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA26246 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6CJBFVe070416; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:11:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6CJBFNm070415; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:11:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc14.comcast.net (sccrmhc14.comcast.net [204.127.202.59]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6CJBEEk070385 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:11:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc14) with SMTP id <2005071219110101400qqj7de>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:11:07 +0000 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:10:58 -0600 Subject: Re: More while we're waiting discussion Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <20050712184242.GA8994@klangraum> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6CJBFEk070410 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id PAA26246 On Tuesday, July 12, 2005, at 12:42 PM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > * James M Snell [2005-07-12 02:00]: >> The second extension is a comments link type that allows an >> entry to be associated with a separate feed containing >> comments. [=85] >> >> >> >> > href=3D"http://example.com/commentsfeed.xml" /> >> >> > > What I don=92t like about this idea is that if a thread-aware > aggregator wants to keep up with *all* discussion on a weblog, it > will have to poll any number of comments-for-entry-X feeds per > single main newsfeed in the general case =96 in the case of a > typical weblog encountered in practice, that would be several > hundred. Clearly, this is untenable. > If you're already creating an extension link type, why not throw in an=20 additional attribute too to help with that: Then you'd only need to poll the main feed unless it indicated an=20 update in the comment feed. Of course, if comments were threaded, you=20 have to cascade comments:updated values up through all the feeds in a=20 thread, and aggregators would have to follow updates back the other=20 way, potentially down multiple branches, to find all the updated leaves. ...which raises the question of whether an application like this might=20 beg a minimal feed for comments that simply pointed to an Entry=20 Document for each comment. Entries in such a feed would really only=20 require an atom:id, atom:updated, atom:link pointing to the entry=20 document, and atom:link pointing to the parent comment or entry.=20 atom:title could conceivably be considered undesirable bloat for such a=20 feed. Is Atom the right format for this need? An alternative might be=20 to define a format for this need that used Atom elements but had=20 minimalized cardinality requirements. Well, enough stream of thought blabbering for now. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 12 15:24:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DsQMS-0006Iv-NS for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:24:08 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA26595 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:24:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6CJFoe4070980; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:15:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6CJFoN5070979; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:15:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6CJFmkO070963 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:15:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 12 Jul 2005 19:15:36 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-226-158.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.226.158] by mail.gmx.net (mp030) with SMTP; 12 Jul 2005 21:15:36 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:19:53 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Old application/atom+xml issues Message-ID: <20050712191953.GB8994@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <20050705140314.GW29203@markbaker.ca> <68fba5c5050705073343e8a991@mail.gmail.com> <20050705162213.GX29203@markbaker.ca> <42D228F9.4020803@dehora.net> <42D27B37.5010204@intertwingly.net> <20050711144544.GY29203@markbaker.ca> <42D29321.2090303@dehora.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42D29321.2090303@dehora.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id PAA26595 * Bill de h=C3=93ra [2005-07-11 17:55]: > [[[ > Interoperability considerations: Some existing agents and feeds > that support the Atom 0.3 specification make use of this media > type despite Atom 0.3 not being compatible with Atom 1.0. Such > feeds SHOULD be considered invalid Atom 1.0. > ]]] -1 first and foremost because of the SHOULD. I don=E2=80=99t see how anything less than a MUST can be justified. Even if that was changed, though, -1 anyway. The only reason we=E2=80=99ll probably have 0.3 feeds in the wild for a while to come is that MovableType users seem to be upgrade-lazy. (I still frequently encounter MT 2.x installs with x as low as 5, whereas I don=E2=80=99t remember the last time I stumbled across a site still running WordPress <1.5.) Most everyone else who did not craft their feed themselves will have it taken care of either by their host or by their vendor=E2=80=99s next release, and those who craft it themselves will fix it in short order anyway. (I know I intend to as soon as my aggregator can eat it, and their effort for that is already underway.) However, the likelihood for sites with old MT installs to be offering *only* an Atom 0.3 feed but no RSS (1.0|2.0) feed is vanishingly small anyway, so even if all aggregators dropped support for 0.3 tomorrow, very few people would actually be affected worse than having to resubscribe some sites. The worst to happen with an aggressive deprecation strategy is that there=E2=80=99ll be a somewhat annoying transitory period of a few months before aggregators and producers all support the new spec in unison. So in light of these and Robert=E2=80=99s arguments, there=E2=80=99s no a= pparent reason to attempt to interoperate. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 12 15:53:27 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DsQop-0000b4-L9 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:53:27 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA28810 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:53:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6CJiBM9073584; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:44:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6CJiBjK073583; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:44:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6CJiAfS073574 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:44:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i1so17322nzh for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:44:04 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=bzaRdBnb2S/z2WXl2UmDiChSklZnHSwWz5BJiQ7v4uQ6ju15/1Pu5NigxDTl543WdZP3y2ytgqsNuU9Qbn8hBInR6bJgWfo7Kg3qSGGAFOkaMmIeTNaSFbQsGiZ+wHB3OdApd95RDde5T75FRGQ08MMyvkezL4f+H99WsL+Ti8w= Received: by 10.36.224.38 with SMTP id w38mr121303nzg; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 6sm107640nzn.2005.07.12.12.44.03; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42D41D82.8090309@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:44:02 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "A. Pagaltzis" CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: More while we're waiting discussion References: <42D300F6.8090206@gmail.com> <20050712184242.GA8994@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20050712184242.GA8994@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id PAA28810 Great thoughts... exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. What you describe is actually the way we currently integrate comments=20 into feeds in the internal IBM blogging infrastructure: Entries and=20 Comments are integrated into a single feed. Currently there is no way=20 of associating (with metadata) a comment to it's entry however. The=20 only connection is that the title of the comment entry uses the "re:"=20 naming scheme commonly used for email replies. If we can come up with a=20 way of marking comment entries as comments and providing a meaningful=20 link back to the original entry, then this method would definitely be=20 workable. Another alternative would be to follow the model Sam Ruby uses in his=20 blog. That is, produce a single feed for all comments=20 (http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/comments.rss2). The comments link=20 could then be included on the feed level rather than the entry level. A=20 single comments feed for a single main entries feed. The comments feed=20 would include the same mechanisms for associating the comment to the=20 original entry that we would use in the single feed solution.=20 It is entirely possible to use a combination of these approaches. - James A. Pagaltzis wrote: >* James M Snell [2005-07-12 02:00]: > =20 > >>The second extension is a comments link type that allows an >>entry to be associated with a separate feed containing >>comments. [=E2=80=A6] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> =20 >> > >What I don=E2=80=99t like about this idea is that if a thread-aware >aggregator wants to keep up with *all* discussion on a weblog, it >will have to poll any number of comments-for-entry-X feeds per >single main newsfeed in the general case =E2=80=93 in the case of a >typical weblog encountered in practice, that would be several >hundred. Clearly, this is untenable. > >So I would prefer to define an extension element that expresses >=E2=80=9Cthis entry is a comment, posted in reply to the entry with the >atom:id value given herein,=E2=80=9D and define a feed-level >atom:link/@rel value that points to such an all-comments feed. A >thread-aware aggregator can then stay updated on any comments >posted anywhere throughout the site by polling a single extra >feed. > >Non-thread-aware aggregators can still get some use out of such a >comments feed. > >Thinking about it, entirely unaware aggregators would probably >get less out of per-entry feeds than a single unified feed =E2=80=93 >they=E2=80=99d need to be subscribed to each entry separately, hugely >cluttering the feedlist. > >If you disregard unaware aggregators, you could even serve only a >single feed to aggregators which contains both the actual weblog >posts and their comments. > >Thinking about it, there=E2=80=99s no reason you can=E2=80=99t offer bot= h: with >another feed-level atom:link/@rel value you could point >thread-aware aggregators to =E2=80=9Cthe same feed, but with comments >included inline,=E2=80=9D so these only need to poll a single feed to >keep up with what=E2=80=99s happening. > >Of course, none of these propositions are preclude each other. >Providers may also choose to generate per-entry comment feeds, >but only for a limited amount of new posts, and might want to >expire old per-entry comment feeds by returning 410. This would >be a clear and easy fit in the case of the popular scenario where >old entries get closed against comments to reduce the site=E2=80=99s >linkspamming profile. Or aggregators may choose not to stay aware >of new comments for entries posted long ago. > >So I=E2=80=99m not arguing that per-entry comments feeds should in any >way be precluded by the spec, because there=E2=80=99s no reason to do >that. But overall, I think defining an extension element as >outlined above and providing a unified feed of comments for all >entries makes the most sense. > >Regards, > =20 > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 12 16:19:34 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DsRE5-0007i6-Sc for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:19:34 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA09871 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:19:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6CKAfvA075700; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:10:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6CKAfoO075699; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:10:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6CKAdrZ075662 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:10:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 12 Jul 2005 20:10:27 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-226-158.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.226.158] by mail.gmx.net (mp008) with SMTP; 12 Jul 2005 22:10:27 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 22:14:41 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: More while we're waiting discussion Message-ID: <20050712201441.GC8994@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <20050712184242.GA8994@klangraum> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id QAA09871 * Antone Roundy [2005-07-12 21:25]: > If you're already creating an extension link type, why not > throw in an additional attribute too to help with that: >=20 > > > href=3D"http://example.com/commentsfeed.xml" /> > > >=20 > Then you'd only need to poll the main feed unless it indicated > an update in the comment feed. Note that this makes it impossible to keep up with comments posted to entries which have slipped off the bottom of the feed. > Of course, if comments were threaded, you have to cascade > comments:updated values up through all the feeds in a thread, > and aggregators would have to follow updates back the other > way, potentially down multiple branches, to find all the > updated leaves. Ugh. The complexity of implementing this, particularly on the consumer end with the combination of multiple network fetches and condition checks intertwined, sounds seriously appaling to me. > ...which raises the question of whether an application like > this might beg a minimal feed for comments that simply pointed > to an Entry Document for each comment. Entries in such a feed > would really only require an atom:id, atom:updated, atom:link > pointing to the entry document, and atom:link pointing to the > parent comment or entry.=20 Hmm. I don=E2=80=99t really like this either, because it involves so many documents. People who produce static files for their feeds would have to contend with an ocean of piddly Entry Document files. But it reminded me that atom:link is actually sufficient for what I said an extension element would be needed in my post =E2=80=93 since atom:id contains a URI anyway, you can just say > atom:title could conceivably be considered undesirable bloat > for such a feed. I suppose. If you actually inline the comments rather than pointing to them, though, in the way I outlined, it=E2=80=99s not undesirable at all. A lot of sites/weblog engines allow including an (optional or not) title with a comment. And even if not, it would lend itself to including something like Re: <xsl:value-of select=3D"$original-entry/atom:title" /></ti= tle> for the benefit of non-thread-aware aggregators. > Is Atom the right format for this need? An alternative might be > to define a format for this need that used Atom elements but > had minimalized cardinality requirements. That=E2=80=99s a really drastic measure for such negligible benefit. One Format To Rule Them All, as far as I=E2=80=99m concerned. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/> From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 12 16:47:34 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DsRfC-00036i-9l for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:47:34 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA24434 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:47:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6CKfRfM078544; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:41:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6CKfR69078543; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:41:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6CKfPeI078520 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:41:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 12 Jul 2005 20:41:13 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-226-158.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.226.158] by mail.gmx.net (mp009) with SMTP; 12 Jul 2005 22:41:13 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 22:45:34 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de> To: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: More while we're waiting discussion Message-ID: <20050712204534.GD8994@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> References: <42D300F6.8090206@gmail.com> <20050712184242.GA8994@klangraum> <42D41D82.8090309@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42D41D82.8090309@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id QAA24434 * James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> [2005-07-12 21:55]: > What you describe is actually the way we currently integrate > comments into feeds in the internal IBM blogging > infrastructure: Entries and Comments are integrated into a > single feed. Great to know that there=E2=80=99s precedent for this as well as for the scenario with a separate feed list (as I mention below). > Currently there is no way of associating (with metadata) a > comment to it's entry however. The only connection is that the > title of the comment entry uses the "re:" naming scheme > commonly used for email replies. If we can come up with a way > of marking comment entries as comments and providing a > meaningful link back to the original entry, then this method > would definitely be workable. As occured to me while replying to Antone Roudy, since atom:id contains an URI and atom:link/@href must contain an URI, this could simply be solved with a link included in comments: <entry> <link rel=3D"in-reply-to" href=3D"{$original-entry/atom:id}" /> <!-- ... --> =20 </entry> That seems to me to a very elegant solution to the issue that requires minimal work on the Atom parser level to support and keeps with the spirit of Atom. It=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9CAtom-ish=E2=80=9D, i= f you will (en lieu of the =E2=80=9CPerl-ish=E2=80=9D that gets thrown around a lot wher= e I come from :-) ). > Another alternative would be to follow the model Sam Ruby uses in his=20 > blog. That is, produce a single feed for all comments=20 > (http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/comments.rss2). This is actually very common already. I can think of a half dozen weblogs from my subscription list off the top of my head which offer such a comments feed. > The comments link could then be included on the feed level > rather than the entry level. A single comments feed for a > single main entries feed. The comments feed would include the > same mechanisms for associating the comment to the original > entry that we would use in the single feed solution.=20 Yep, exactly. The structure basically suggests itself. As I said in the previous mail, it might also be worth specifying a link relation for pointing to a feed with *both* entries and comments where available, so that a thread-aware aggregator can switch subscription over to it, only needing to poll a single feed. > It is entirely possible to use a combination of these approaches. Indeed. I am liking this a lot. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/> From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 12 17:14:37 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DsS5N-0000jJ-2B for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:14:37 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA05244 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:14:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6CL5kT7082582; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:05:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6CL5kSD082581; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:05:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.204]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6CL5j2E082574 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:05:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i11so25248nzh for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:05:39 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=rGhsF+jC8ZlPTjHlkrTJYIxJhNjOW6ntLZ5BdJL3YY2XNvtjQnAIyruxTNlFCG9DbhAN9mbI39oU5WTOCYtcc5j8YfHtSSNq81fgQWEO1/GDMej3hmp6XTyRtnwgyfu2qXAx76roFu/Uh3Cv9A+cKURoytRblpNI0F2tOHFP7+Q= Received: by 10.36.57.11 with SMTP id f11mr229473nza; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 23sm158950nzn.2005.07.12.14.05.39; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42D430A1.6090105@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:05:37 -0700 From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de> CC: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: More while we're waiting discussion References: <42D300F6.8090206@gmail.com> <20050712184242.GA8994@klangraum> <42D41D82.8090309@gmail.com> <20050712204534.GD8994@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20050712204534.GD8994@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id RAA05244 Ok, distilled from this conversation... 1. Comments can either be included directly within the feed or in a=20 separate feed. 2. Comment entries are distinguished by a link @rel=3D"in-reply-to"=20 @href=3D"{$original-entry/atom:id}" 3. Comment feeds may be indicated using a link @rel=3D"comments"=20 @href=3D"{$comment-feed-url}" as a child of <feed /> Example 1: Entries and comments in a single feed <feed> <entry> <id>http://example.com/2</id> <link rel=3D"in-reply-to" href=3D"http://example.com/1" /> ... </entry> <entry> <id>http://example.com/1</id> ... </entry> </feed> Example 2: Comments in a separate, associated feed <feed> <link rel=3D"comments" href=3D"http://example.com/comments.xml" /> <entry> <id>http://example.com/1</id> </entry> </feed> <feed> <entry> <id>http://example.com/2</id> <link rel=3D"in-reply-to" href=3D"http://example.com/1" /> ... </entry> </feed> The in-reply-to link could also be used in feeds that are not directly=20 associated with the source feed. e.g. if you post an entry in your blog=20 and I post a reply to that entry in my blog. My entry can use the=20 in-reply-to link so that thread aware readers can make the connection=20 appropriately. Question: could the @rel=3D"comments" link be handled appropriately using= =20 the existing @rel=3D"related"? The question hinges on whether or not it=20 is semantically important to distinguish "comments" from other types of=20 related entities. I'm not convinced it is. If a @link=3D"related" point= s=20 to an Atom feed, who cares what that feed contains, the user agent can=20 make the feed available for the user to subscribe to pulling in the=20 relevant entries. - James A. Pagaltzis wrote: >* James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> [2005-07-12 21:55]: > =20 > >>What you describe is actually the way we currently integrate >>comments into feeds in the internal IBM blogging >>infrastructure: Entries and Comments are integrated into a >>single feed. >> =20 >> > >Great to know that there=E2=80=99s precedent for this as well as for the >scenario with a separate feed list (as I mention below). > > =20 > >>Currently there is no way of associating (with metadata) a >>comment to it's entry however. The only connection is that the >>title of the comment entry uses the "re:" naming scheme >>commonly used for email replies. If we can come up with a way >>of marking comment entries as comments and providing a >>meaningful link back to the original entry, then this method >>would definitely be workable. >> =20 >> > >As occured to me while replying to Antone Roudy, since atom:id >contains an URI and atom:link/@href must contain an URI, this >could simply be solved with a link included in comments: > > <entry> > <link rel=3D"in-reply-to" href=3D"{$original-entry/atom:id}" /> > <!-- ... --> =20 > </entry> > >That seems to me to a very elegant solution to the issue that >requires minimal work on the Atom parser level to support and >keeps with the spirit of Atom. It=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9CAtom-ish=E2=80=9D, = if you will (en >lieu of the =E2=80=9CPerl-ish=E2=80=9D that gets thrown around a lot whe= re I come >from :-) ). > > =20 > >>Another alternative would be to follow the model Sam Ruby uses in his=20 >>blog. That is, produce a single feed for all comments=20 >>(http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/comments.rss2). >> =20 >> > >This is actually very common already. I can think of a half dozen >weblogs from my subscription list off the top of my head which >offer such a comments feed. > > =20 > >>The comments link could then be included on the feed level >>rather than the entry level. A single comments feed for a >>single main entries feed. The comments feed would include the >>same mechanisms for associating the comment to the original >>entry that we would use in the single feed solution.=20 >> =20 >> > >Yep, exactly. The structure basically suggests itself. > >As I said in the previous mail, it might also be worth specifying >a link relation for pointing to a feed with *both* entries and >comments where available, so that a thread-aware aggregator can >switch subscription over to it, only needing to poll a single >feed. > > =20 > >>It is entirely possible to use a combination of these approaches. >> =20 >> > >Indeed. > >I am liking this a lot. > >Regards, > =20 > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 12 17:54:05 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DsShZ-0007iX-4o for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:54:05 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA21868 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:54:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6CLf0s7084605; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:41:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6CLf0nA084604; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:41:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf01.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.68]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6CLdnEh084570 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:39:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.5.177.54]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A5B93182BE; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 23:39:39 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <42D4389A.4080103@cegetel.net> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 23:39:38 +0200 From: Thomas Broyer <t.broyer@cegetel.net> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0+ (Windows/20050531) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> Cc: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de>, Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: More while we're waiting discussion References: <42D300F6.8090206@gmail.com> <20050712184242.GA8994@klangraum> <42D41D82.8090309@gmail.com> <20050712204534.GD8994@klangraum> <42D430A1.6090105@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <42D430A1.6090105@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James M Snell wrote: > > Ok, distilled from this conversation... > > 1. Comments can either be included directly within the feed or in a > separate feed. > 2. Comment entries are distinguished by a link @rel="in-reply-to" > @href="{$original-entry/atom:id}" As an atom:id is an identifier that might (should?) not be "dereferenceable", atom:link is not a good choice. An extension element whose content is an URI/IRI (similar to atom:id) would be better: <thread:in-reply-to>{$original-entry/atom:id}</thread:in-reply-to> > 3. Comment feeds may be indicated using a link @rel="comments" > @href="{$comment-feed-url}" as a child of <feed /> 3. Comment feeds may be indicated using a link @rel="comments" @href="{$comment-feed-uri}". If used as a child of atom:feed, it links to a feed containing all comments on all entries. If used as a child of atom:entry, it links to a feed containing only the comments on the entry. > Example 1: Entries and comments in a single feed > > <feed> > <entry> > <id>http://example.com/2</id> <thread:in-reply-to>http://example.com/1" </thread:in-reply-to> > ... > </entry> > <entry> > <id>http://example.com/1</id> > ... > </entry> > </feed> > > Example 2: Comments in a separate, associated feed > > <feed> > <link rel="comments" href="http://example.com/comments.xml" /> > <entry> > <id>http://example.com/1</id> <link rel="comments" href="http://example.com/1/comments.xml" title="Comments on this entry" /> > </entry> > </feed> > > <feed> > <entry> > <id>http://example.com/2</id> <thread:in-reply-to>http://example.com/1</thread:in-reply-to> > ... > </entry> > </feed> > > The in-reply-to link could also be used in feeds that are not directly > associated with the source feed. e.g. if you post an entry in your > blog and I post a reply to that entry in my blog. My entry can use > the in-reply-to link so that thread aware readers can make the > connection appropriately. Your entry should also link to a representation of the "commented resource" using an atom:link[@rel="related"]. And if you're relaying information, you could use an atom:link[@rel="via"], as proposed in http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceLinkRelVia > Question: could the @rel="comments" link be handled appropriately > using the existing @rel="related"? The question hinges on whether or > not it is semantically important to distinguish "comments" from other > types of related entities. I'm not convinced it is. If a > @link="related" points to an Atom feed, who cares what that feed > contains, the user agent can make the feed available for the user to > subscribe to pulling in the relevant entries. I don't know yet... -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 12 19:09:32 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DsTsa-0003EO-AD for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:09:32 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA02930 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:09:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6CMrDhE092304; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:53:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6CMrDcl092303; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:53:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.197]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6CMrCf6092293 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:53:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rogben@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i3so56047wra for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:53:07 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=YUH6wf+7PVo07IPVc2W5bpaZ8gaKk4pnYHny2W2G5nYcKyLi5JYQ8Ks5K22qD2tdZ2FpZfj5lO/fsGtUVnSIJmiH/jmvNK6Zjk5t/k5tbW6zs3UNN0SJ7xgjwb8JTOaVPAqEDsT+XRlw+v0r9/h1Zq/QkshlQBXkRj55EnXG+90= Received: by 10.54.56.56 with SMTP id e56mr95682wra; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.95.10 with HTTP; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <540e37320507121553502bb445@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:53:07 -0500 From: "Roger B." <rogben@gmail.com> Reply-To: "Roger B." <rogben@gmail.com> To: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: More while we're waiting discussion In-Reply-To: <42D300F6.8090206@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <42D2D230.8080001@intertwingly.net> <42D300F6.8090206@gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6CMrDf6092295 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit James: Given that this kind of thing is pretty near-n-dear to me, I'm quite interested. A couple observations and/or thoughts: (1) I like this much, much better than the proposed ThreadsML mess of years past. Simple is good. (2) Implementation might be a hard sell, so don't get your hopes too high. wfw:commentRss has been around for years, and RSS Bandit, Newzcrawler, and (I think) Sharpreader are all on board. But since more popular feed readers like NetNewsWire and Feeddemon don't support it, getting individual bloggers to care can be challenging. Which is kinda silly, since WordPress does per-entry comment feeds out of the box, but whatcha gonna do? (3) The link @rel="in-reply-to" @href="{$original-entry/atom:id}" construct makes sense to me. Particularly since it doesn't just duplicate wfw:commentRss, which would be kinda pointless. (4) RE: @rel="comments" vs. @rel="related" I generally feel like more specific is more better, but I can see arguments both ways. -- Roger Benningfield JournURL From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 12 20:24:29 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DsV37-000087-Ig for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 20:24:29 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA11008 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 20:24:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6D0GTl3099823; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:16:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6D0GT1l099822; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:16:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6D0GRdt099809 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:16:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 13 Jul 2005 00:16:20 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-220-161.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.220.161] by mail.gmx.net (mp023) with SMTP; 13 Jul 2005 02:16:20 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 02:21:14 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de> To: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: More while we're waiting discussion Message-ID: <20050713002114.GB11062@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> References: <20050712184242.GA8994@klangraum> <42D41D82.8090309@gmail.com> <20050712204534.GD8994@klangraum> <42D430A1.6090105@gmail.com> <42D4389A.4080103@cegetel.net> <42D300F6.8090206@gmail.com> <20050712184242.GA8994@klangraum> <42D41D82.8090309@gmail.com> <20050712204534.GD8994@klangraum> <42D430A1.6090105@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42D4389A.4080103@cegetel.net> <42D430A1.6090105@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id UAA11008 * James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> [2005-07-12 23:20]: > 1. Comments can either be included directly within the feed or in a=20 > separate feed. > 2. Comment entries are distinguished by a link @rel=3D"in-reply-to"=20 > @href=3D"{$original-entry/atom:id}" > 3. Comment feeds may be indicated using a link @rel=3D"comments"=20 > @href=3D"{$comment-feed-url}" as a child of <feed /> Sounds good to me. > Example 1: Entries and comments in a single feed >=20 > Example 2: Comments in a separate, associated feed Yep. > The in-reply-to link could also be used in feeds that are not > directly associated with the source feed. e.g. if you post an > entry in your blog and I post a reply to that entry in my blog. > My entry can use the in-reply-to link so that thread aware > readers can make the connection appropriately. Hmm. That=E2=80=99s a nice thought that hadn=E2=80=99t occured to me. Thi= nking about it, that would offer a way to solve a lot of the mess that currently plagues the Trackback/Pingback mechanisms. You could just ping the target weblog with a pointer to the feed which contains the entry you wrote in response to someone else=E2=80=99s post. See also below, in reply to Thomas Broyer, on @rel=3D'related'. It also occurs to me that just like in email (examine the specimen you=E2=80=99re just reading, f.ex.), there=E2=80=99s nothing tha= t precludes an entry from having *multiple* @rel=3D'in-reply-to' links, although in practice this will be rare. Or at least newsreaders will probably not support it well (like mailers don=E2=80=99t, even when they thread messages and can send replies to multiple messages at once =E2=80=93 mutt, which I=E2=80=99m sending this = message with, being a fine example), which dooms it to be a rare situation, anyway. But there=E2=80=99s no particular reason to confine conversations to trees rather than allowing full directed graphs, and so long as aggregators are aware that they MAY encounter multiple backreferences, it=E2=80=99s probably fine for them to do the same as threading mailers: pick one of the backreferences for the purpose of threading and ignore the others. > Question: could the @rel=3D"comments" link be handled > appropriately using the existing @rel=3D"related"? The question > hinges on whether or not it is semantically important to > distinguish "comments" from other types of related entities. > I'm not convinced it is. You have a point=E2=80=A6 hmm=E2=80=A6 @rel=3D'comments' does seem to stem from an arbitrary narrow world view: it=E2=80=99s kind of stupid unless we are going to specify that the referenced feed MUST contain ONLY comments =E2=80=93 because what if someone points to a feed which contains unrelated entries? No harm would be done anyway (most probably, the aggregator would ignore anything in the purported comment feed that=E2=80=99s not a comment linked to things in the main feed), but as a description of the relationship =E2=80=9Ccomments=E2=80=9D would be silly. > If a @link=3D"related" points to an Atom feed, who cares what > that feed contains, the user agent can make the feed available > for the user to subscribe to pulling in the relevant entries. The problem I have with this is that it gives the aggregator a bit too little to work with. Thread-aware aggregators will probably want to subscribe a comments feed automatically =E2=80=93 possibly even without user intervention (f.ex. in the case of a web-based aggregator like Bloglines). But a related feed could be anything. How does the aggregator know whether it needs to examine one of these for comments, and if so, which one? Something more specific than @rel=3D'related' is clearly necessary to facilitate machine consumption by thread-aware aggregators. Maybe it should be @rel=3D'has-comments'? Or am I splitting hairs now? * Thomas Broyer <t.broyer@cegetel.net> [2005-07-13 00:00]: > As an atom:id is an identifier that might (should?) not be > "dereferenceable", atom:link is not a good choice. There is nothing in the spec that forbids atom:link from being dereferencable, nor anything that advises against it being so. See 4.2.6 and 4.2.6.1 in -09. In fact, Tim Bray has argued that you should go ahead and use HTTP URIs as IDs: http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2004/05/28/LinksAndGuids The spec just says is that the URI MUST NOT be assumed to be dereferencable, and that the exact value must be considered opaque: =E2=80=9Chttp://EXAMPLE.COM/foo=E2=80=9D is different from =E2=80=9Chttp://example.com/foo=E2=80=9D for the purposes of identifying = entries. Therefore, the spec says, URIs SHOULD be normalized according to the strategy laid out therein in order to avoid confusion. That is all. Whether atom:link is a bad choice for carrying a non- dereferencable URI around is a better argument. The spec says, verbatim: The "atom:link" element defines a reference from an entry or feed to a Web resource. That would seem to imply dereferencability, but is open to interpretation. The spec itself goes on to leave matters at the following: The "href" attribute contains the link's IRI. atom:link elements MUST have a href attribute, whose value MUST be a IRI reference [RFC3987]. That does not mandate any particular interpretation =E2=80=93 URIs may be dereferencable, but don=E2=80=99t have to be. Personally, I would prefer to interpret the spec liberally, if that is within the intended spirit, because a new @rel value requires very little work and seems more likely to gain traction. Consumers in particular have a large enough burden implementing threading and threaded display anyway. (For producers, it makes much less of a difference.) > 3. Comment feeds may be indicated using a link @rel=3D"comments" > @href=3D"{$comment-feed-uri}". If used as a child of atom:feed, > it links to a feed containing all comments on all entries. If > used as a child of atom:entry, it links to a feed containing > only the comments on the entry. Yep. No reason to pick sides here. > >The in-reply-to link could also be used in feeds that are not > >directly associated with the source feed. e.g. if you post an > >entry in your blog and I post a reply to that entry in my > >blog. My entry can use the in-reply-to link so that thread > >aware readers can make the connection appropriately. >=20 > Your entry should also link to a representation of the > "commented resource" using an atom:link[@rel=3D"related"]. I really like this! That would give aggregators the chance to do something sensible when an entry shows up in a feed which is in-reply-to an entry in another feed which the particular aggregator does not subscribe. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/> From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 12 20:49:52 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DsVRg-0007XI-6T for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 20:49:52 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA12514 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 20:49:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6D0iWgi002057; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:44:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6D0iWEh002056; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:44:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.199]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6D0iVQn002048 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:44:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id g11so94394rne for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:44:30 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=bO0cGvnYvX7Z3Sl00gDKcUvcw1lZLuZ4jPpTEWb6Za1gfoW2FbrgFvbbTsx7n+9wJGraVF0UntPSMvRxGDlAI2DLQKcnCbHLPYJYzCvuXyal48B1hP7uFotP5UVrGz48NNh7n7ZdDHpCR5+W2Ec4Ec/7r+Sjq+KUCCwqf5Emlkg= Received: by 10.38.59.45 with SMTP id h45mr355063rna; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:44:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id f3sm343826rne.2005.07.12.17.44.30; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:44:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42D463EC.30204@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:44:28 -0700 From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de> CC: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: More while we're waiting discussion References: <20050712184242.GA8994@klangraum> <42D41D82.8090309@gmail.com> <20050712204534.GD8994@klangraum> <42D430A1.6090105@gmail.com> <42D4389A.4080103@cegetel.net> <42D300F6.8090206@gmail.com> <20050712184242.GA8994@klangraum> <42D41D82.8090309@gmail.com> <20050712204534.GD8994@klangraum> <42D430A1.6090105@gmail.com> <20050713002114.GB11062@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20050713002114.GB11062@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id UAA12514 A. Pagaltzis wrote: >Hmm. That=E2=80=99s a nice thought that hadn=E2=80=99t occured to me. Th= inking >about it, that would offer a way to solve a lot of the mess that >currently plagues the Trackback/Pingback mechanisms. You could >just ping the target weblog with a pointer to the feed which >contains the entry you wrote in response to someone else=E2=80=99s post. > >See also below, in reply to Thomas Broyer, on @rel=3D'related'. > > =20 > Yep tho I really don't want to bring trackback/pingback into this=20 discussion ;-) This mechanism would make it easier to connect=20 conversations on the client without necessarily worrying about server=20 infrastructure for trackbacks, pings, etc.=20 >It also occurs to me that just like in email (examine the >specimen you=E2=80=99re just reading, f.ex.), there=E2=80=99s nothing th= at >precludes an entry from having *multiple* @rel=3D'in-reply-to' >links, although in practice this will be rare. Or at least >newsreaders will probably not support it well (like mailers >don=E2=80=99t, even when they thread messages and can send replies to >multiple messages at once =E2=80=93 mutt, which I=E2=80=99m sending this= message >with, being a fine example), which dooms it to be a rare >situation, anyway. But there=E2=80=99s no particular reason to confine >conversations to trees rather than allowing full directed graphs, >and so long as aggregators are aware that they MAY encounter >multiple backreferences, it=E2=80=99s probably fine for them to do the >same as threading mailers: pick one of the backreferences for the >purpose of threading and ignore the others. > > =20 > +1. There's no need to constrain this but I agree that this is=20 definitely an edge case >>Question: could the @rel=3D"comments" link be handled >>appropriately using the existing @rel=3D"related"? The question >>hinges on whether or not it is semantically important to >>distinguish "comments" from other types of related entities. >>I'm not convinced it is. >> =20 >> > >You have a point=E2=80=A6 hmm=E2=80=A6 > >@rel=3D'comments' does seem to stem from an arbitrary narrow world >view: it=E2=80=99s kind of stupid unless we are going to specify that th= e >referenced feed MUST contain ONLY comments =E2=80=93 because what if >someone points to a feed which contains unrelated entries? No >harm would be done anyway (most probably, the aggregator would >ignore anything in the purported comment feed that=E2=80=99s not a >comment linked to things in the main feed), but as a description >of the relationship =E2=80=9Ccomments=E2=80=9D would be silly. > > =20 > @rel=3D"related-feed" ??? A bit more specific than "related", the nature= =20 of the relation is left unspecified. User agents can choose to handle=20 in whatever way they wish. >Maybe it should be @rel=3D'has-comments'? Or am I splitting hairs >now? > > =20 > Splitting hairs I think. > >* Thomas Broyer <t.broyer@cegetel.net> [2005-07-13 00:00]: > =20 > >>As an atom:id is an identifier that might (should?) not be >>"dereferenceable", atom:link is not a good choice. >> =20 >> > >There is nothing in the spec that forbids atom:link from being >dereferencable, nor anything that advises against it being so. >See 4.2.6 and 4.2.6.1 in -09. > > =20 > This was my interpretation also. I vote for a liberal interpretation as=20 well. >>Your entry should also link to a representation of the >>"commented resource" using an atom:link[@rel=3D"related"]. >> =20 >> > >I really like this! That would give aggregators the chance to do >something sensible when an entry shows up in a feed which is >in-reply-to an entry in another feed which the particular >aggregator does not subscribe. > > =20 > +1 this is good - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 12 20:54:39 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DsVWJ-0008Mh-NE for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 20:54:39 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA12726 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 20:54:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6D0nhKj002816; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:49:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6D0nhhU002815; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:49:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.197]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6D0nhHH002807 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:49:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id j1so95663rnf for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:49:42 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=W0+RCRtzXrJ6U1XjbNynxR8/Yicd2bQwrNeRUBcgEgb1wABBn6QfJI2Lveg7iVVXj9OocuwYgMdBrQVKRbbkx0Y6D/HApw4P4kHUCSTs4VddxUoZ0TmQjTXyta033oDae+nuZGLv394k9DoAXQhzGQUP6Ft6py5QBcfOJaAvolA= Received: by 10.38.75.26 with SMTP id x26mr356490rna; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 57sm251753rnc.2005.07.12.17.49.41; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:49:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42D46523.4080707@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:49:39 -0700 From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Roger B." <rogben@gmail.com> CC: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: More while we're waiting discussion References: <42D2D230.8080001@intertwingly.net> <42D300F6.8090206@gmail.com> <540e37320507121553502bb445@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <540e37320507121553502bb445@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roger B. wrote: >James: Given that this kind of thing is pretty near-n-dear to me, I'm >quite interested. A couple observations and/or thoughts: > >(1) I like this much, much better than the proposed ThreadsML mess of >years past. Simple is good. > > > Absolutely. >(2) Implementation might be a hard sell, so don't get your hopes too >high. wfw:commentRss has been around for years, and RSS Bandit, >Newzcrawler, and (I think) Sharpreader are all on board. But since >more popular feed readers like NetNewsWire and Feeddemon don't support >it, getting individual bloggers to care can be challenging. Which is >kinda silly, since WordPress does per-entry comment feeds out of the >box, but whatcha gonna do? > > > Evangelism through implementation is all we can do. Whatever mechanism we choose to go with, I'll likely implement support for it in my personal blogs WordPress environment and will likely share the code. >(3) The link @rel="in-reply-to" @href="{$original-entry/atom:id}" >construct makes sense to me. Particularly since it doesn't just >duplicate wfw:commentRss, which would be kinda pointless. > > > Right. The goal is to keep it as simple as commentRss while leveraging Atom's specific model. The link element is a natural fit for this. >(4) RE: @rel="comments" vs. @rel="related" >I generally feel like more specific is more better, but I can see >arguments both ways. > > > I definitely agree that more specific is better. In a separate note I proposed "related-feed" as a possible more-specific-than-related-but-not-as-specific-as-comments alternative. Whatcha think? Still not specific enough? - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 12 21:27:46 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DsW2M-0004eq-I1 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:27:46 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA14398 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:27:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6D1IiUH006025; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:18:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6D1IipU006024; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:18:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6D1Ige4006012 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:18:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 13 Jul 2005 01:18:36 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-220-161.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.220.161] by mail.gmx.net (mp012) with SMTP; 13 Jul 2005 03:18:36 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 03:23:30 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de> To: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: More while we're waiting discussion Message-ID: <20050713012330.GE11062@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> References: <20050712204534.GD8994@klangraum> <42D430A1.6090105@gmail.com> <42D4389A.4080103@cegetel.net> <42D300F6.8090206@gmail.com> <20050712184242.GA8994@klangraum> <42D41D82.8090309@gmail.com> <20050712204534.GD8994@klangraum> <42D430A1.6090105@gmail.com> <20050713002114.GB11062@klangraum> <42D463EC.30204@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42D463EC.30204@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id VAA14398 * James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> [2005-07-13 02:55]: > A. Pagaltzis wrote: >=20 > >Hmm. That=E2=80=99s a nice thought that hadn=E2=80=99t occured to me. = Thinking > >about it, that would offer a way to solve a lot of the mess > >that currently plagues the Trackback/Pingback mechanisms. You > >could just ping the target weblog with a pointer to the feed > >which contains the entry you wrote in response to someone > >else=E2=80=99s post. >=20 > Yep tho I really don't want to bring trackback/pingback into > this discussion ;-) I understand the sentiment. :-) It was idle musing at this point. > This mechanism would make it easier to connect conversations on > the client without necessarily worrying about server > infrastructure for trackbacks, pings, etc.=20 Obviously that=E2=80=99s the primary purpose. I simply noticed that assuming that the mechanism is in place, it then becomes be an obvious way to address pings that neatly avoids the nasty mess in current protocols. But this is something to deal with in the relatively far future, not now. > @rel=3D"related-feed" ??? A bit more specific than "related", > the nature of the relation is left unspecified. User agents > can choose to handle in whatever way they wish. That doesn=E2=80=99t seem to confer more meaning than you can already express by [@rel=3D'related' and @type=3D'application/atom+xml']. I think what we want to say is that =E2=80=9Caggregators consuming this feed should consider automatically subscribing to the referenced feed as well,=E2=80=9D which is a much tighter relationship than the loose =E2=80=9Crelated.=E2=80=9D Maybe =E2=80=9Ccompanion?=E2=80=9D I don=E2=80=99t know if I like that te= rm, but it=E2=80=99s the best single-word description I can think of off the top of my head. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/> From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 12 22:18:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DsWp5-0007dU-56 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 22:18:07 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA17486 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 22:18:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6D29tth009288; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:09:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6D29tFs009287; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:09:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc14.comcast.net [216.148.227.89]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6D29tdt009280 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:09:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc14) with SMTP id <2005071302094901400ie04fe>; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 02:09:49 +0000 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 20:09:47 -0600 Subject: Re: More while we're waiting discussion Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy <antone@geckotribe.com> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <20050713002114.GB11062@klangraum> Message-Id: <301492AE-F343-11D9-A19D-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, July 12, 2005, at 06:21 PM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > * Thomas Broyer <t.broyer@cegetel.net> [2005-07-13 00:00]: >> As an atom:id is an identifier that might (should?) not be >> "dereferenceable", atom:link is not a good choice. > There is nothing in the spec that forbids atom:link That should be "atom:id", right? > from being > dereferencable, nor anything that advises against it being so. > See 4.2.6 and 4.2.6.1 in -09. ... > The spec just says is that the URI MUST NOT be assumed to be > dereferencable, ... > Whether atom:link is a bad choice for carrying a non- > dereferencable URI around is a better argument. The spec says, > verbatim: > > The "atom:link" element defines a reference from an entry or > feed to a Web resource. > > That would seem to imply dereferencability, but is open to > interpretation. ... > Personally, I would prefer to interpret the spec liberally, if > that is within the intended spirit, It's definitely not within the spirit that I, for one, intended. But the spirit that I intended (atom:link being limited to links intended to be traversed in response to explicit user interaction) was not accepted by the WG, so perhaps that has little bearing. If atom:link is intended to be dereferencable, then clearly, any solution that takes a value from atom:id and puts it into atom:link/@href has a strike against it since any feed that uses non-dereferencable atom:ids would either have to violate the spirit of atom:link to participate in the feature, or would have to invent a competing solution. Also, if a feed that uses dereferencable atom:ids is relocated, clients would be much more likely to attempt to dereference the atom:links that carried those previously dereferencable values than an extension element that was explicitly defined as not necessarily dereferencable. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 13 00:36:50 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DsYzK-0008E6-GW for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 00:36:50 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA25386 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 00:36:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6D4RpaK021422; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:27:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6D4RpVR021421; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:27:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6D4RofX021402 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:27:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 13so57235nzn for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:27:45 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=aWun+SPNKyzdIcc1IBjG1OgzKL0l/DZHp4McLd/5JgidvCU3QdBuGu2A235AX4jEfRD+g+TKzJFGTDz5AkFxmcXZtdkwZdmSr/oNWH2Ux0WILeelWJDwpm3gMYg9m36kTw76YDvq5ZuF0WaqXvMf2GJI8eNG6DwpWv1YKQaOpP4= Received: by 10.36.2.17 with SMTP id 17mr543826nzb; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 15sm547934nzn.2005.07.12.21.27.44; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42D4983D.6070203@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:27:41 -0700 From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de> CC: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: More while we're waiting discussion References: <20050712204534.GD8994@klangraum> <42D430A1.6090105@gmail.com> <42D4389A.4080103@cegetel.net> <42D300F6.8090206@gmail.com> <20050712184242.GA8994@klangraum> <42D41D82.8090309@gmail.com> <20050712204534.GD8994@klangraum> <42D430A1.6090105@gmail.com> <20050713002114.GB11062@klangraum> <42D463EC.30204@gmail.com> <20050713012330.GE11062@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20050713012330.GE11062@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id AAA25386 A. Pagaltzis wrote: >>@rel=3D"related-feed" ??? A bit more specific than "related", >>the nature of the relation is left unspecified. User agents >>can choose to handle in whatever way they wish. >> =20 >> > >That doesn=E2=80=99t seem to confer more meaning than you can already >express by [@rel=3D'related' and @type=3D'application/atom+xml']. > > =20 > Picky picky ;-) >I think what we want to say is that =E2=80=9Caggregators consuming this >feed should consider automatically subscribing to the referenced >feed as well,=E2=80=9D which is a much tighter relationship than the >loose =E2=80=9Crelated.=E2=80=9D > >Maybe =E2=80=9Ccompanion?=E2=80=9D I don=E2=80=99t know if I like that t= erm, but it=E2=80=99s the >best single-word description I can think of off the top of my >head. > > =20 > I think we could just as easily attach the "you really should=20 auto-subscribe" semantic to @rel=3D"related" @type=3D"application/atom+xm= l"=20 without incurring any need for coming up with a new link type. On a=20 conceptual level more-specific is better, but on a practical level, a=20 new @rel label doesn't seem to buy us enough benefit to justify=20 requiring developers to implement support for it. @rel=3D"related" feeds= =20 can simply be handled differently than other @rel=3D"related" stuff. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 13 01:28:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DsZmy-0008Oa-SA for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 01:28:08 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA27931 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 01:28:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6D5IaUo033878; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 22:18:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6D5Iata033877; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 22:18:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.201]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6D5IZwF033867 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 22:18:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id a41so133487rng for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 22:18:35 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=t0oWC8d9OHJ2jqq0hMIf7iQTReD4KYt7Z+CGHyE+1f9S6/fYisMShyq+raU7dMhD++J6Bd8/KWQbHs4LVRTZRHBZQnK3q3buVlCj4Xod6dSLczpHzCTy0mcXJWit7QIvS46zfUJLr9WZcSfJtpsarG/sDyVEb68+Kor8Wb2p+k8= Received: by 10.38.151.73 with SMTP id y73mr485611rnd; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 22:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id r34sm627733rna.2005.07.12.22.18.34; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 22:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42D4A427.5030903@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 22:18:31 -0700 From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Antone Roundy <antone@geckotribe.com> CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: More while we're waiting discussion References: <F937F171-F359-11D9-A19D-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> In-Reply-To: <F937F171-F359-11D9-A19D-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id BAA27931 Antone Roundy wrote: > > On Tuesday, July 12, 2005, at 07:23 PM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > >> I think what we want to say is that =93aggregators consuming this >> feed should consider automatically subscribing to the referenced >> feed as well,=94 > > > Automating feed subscriptions isn't something that should be done too =20 > lightly[1]. The default behavior for an aggregator should be NOT to=20 > do this, and aggregators should give the user the opportunity to=20 > control this feature on a feed-by-feed basis. Some sort of=20 > same-source policy (like we see with JavaScripts accessing the pages=20 > they're loaded into) might be wise to help prevent abuse, but with=20 > lots of feeds getting run through services like FeedBurner, that=20 > would be far from sufficient. > > [1] =20 > http://www.megginson.com/blogs/quoderat/archives/2005/06/13/the-case-=20 > against-easier-feed-subscriptions/ > > Ah... good point. Definite room for abuse here. The user should=20 definitely be in control. However, I don't want to get into dictating=20 any particular application behavior. Rather, we could simply describe=20 the issues, the potential for abuse, and offer a number of recommended=20 approaches to dealing with it. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 13 02:15:51 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DsaX9-0005tY-1K for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 02:15:51 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA15012 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 02:15:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6D66xF6057719; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 23:06:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6D66xtM057718; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 23:06:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6D66v0k057674 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 23:06:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 13 Jul 2005 06:06:51 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-220-161.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.220.161] by mail.gmx.net (mp013) with SMTP; 13 Jul 2005 08:06:51 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:11:45 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: More while we're waiting discussion Message-ID: <20050713061145.GB13244@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <20050713002114.GB11062@klangraum> <301492AE-F343-11D9-A19D-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <301492AE-F343-11D9-A19D-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id CAA15012 * Antone Roundy <antone@geckotribe.com> [2005-07-13 04:20]: > If atom:link is intended to be dereferencable, then clearly, > any solution that takes a value from atom:id and puts it into > atom:link/@href has a strike against it since any feed that > uses non-dereferencable atom:ids would either have to violate > the spirit of atom:link to participate in the feature, or would > have to invent a competing solution. If atom:link is indeed intended to be dereferencable, then my proposition is bunk and we need an extension element. Even if the atom:id elements in question carried dereferncable URIs, and thus could meaningfully be put into atom:link elements, that is beside the point. The letter of the spec does not mandate dereferancability right now. On whether this is intentional or an oversight, I await judgement from the WG. Obviously, my own vote is that it=E2=80=99s fine as is: I see no reason that dictates that atom:link must point to a concrete Web resource, rather than just an abstract one =E2=80=93 neither conceptually/semantically nor in terms of consequences for implementation of Atom generators and consumers. OTOH, if the WG thinks the spec is meant to be stricter than the letter of the current document, that might be a minor spec bug that should be fixed in the -10 draft. (I=E2=80=99m not entirely clear where the minor/major change threshold is at this stage in the process, and if a fix to this aspect would violate it. The wording would only require trivial additions; but the consequences of the change might be considered too major. Unless maybe it=E2=80=99s argued that this was what the spec said all along, and this change therefore is just clarification? I don=E2=80=99t know. Colour me lost.) Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/> From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 13 02:28:47 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dsajf-000343-4E for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 02:28:47 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA01127 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 02:28:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6D6Ktdf063253; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 23:20:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6D6Kt3Z063252; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 23:20:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6D6KsJk063215 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 23:20:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 13 Jul 2005 06:20:48 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-220-161.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.220.161] by mail.gmx.net (mp034) with SMTP; 13 Jul 2005 08:20:48 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:25:42 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: More while we're waiting discussion Message-ID: <20050713062542.GC13244@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <20050713012330.GE11062@klangraum> <F937F171-F359-11D9-A19D-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <F937F171-F359-11D9-A19D-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id CAA01127 * Antone Roundy <antone@geckotribe.com> [2005-07-13 07:05]: > Automating feed subscriptions isn't something that should be > done too lightly[1]. The default behavior for an aggregator > should be NOT to do this, and aggregators should give the user > the opportunity to control this feature on a feed-by-feed > basis. True, but this doesn=E2=80=99t detract from my argument that we need to be able to signify a tighter relationship than just =E2=80=9Crelated.=E2=80= =9D An aggregator might want to offer different UI for comment feeds, in contrast to merely =E2=80=9Crelated=E2=80=9D feeds. Automatic polling of = comment feeds is just one possible behaviour that differentiates the two. Another might be that the aggregator asks the user on subscription whether he/she also wants to poll the comment feed, but draws no particular attention to =E2=80=9Crelated=E2=80=9D feeds, and= merely shows them on a feed details pane or some such. But the basic issue remains one and the same: the aggregator must somehow be able to tell that some of the linked feeds are highly relevant, whereas others are merely of tangential interest. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/> From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 13 02:53:16 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dsb7L-0005cA-On for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 02:53:16 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA07480 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 02:53:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6D6ZSBW069300; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 23:35:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6D6ZSAr069299; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 23:35:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.48]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6D6ZRPo069232 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 23:35:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamta12-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050713063523.GYTR889.mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamta12-winn.ispmail.ntl.com>; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:35:23 +0100 Received: from cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust90.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([81.111.201.90]) by aamta12-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050713063517.KAUP4721.aamta12-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust90.bagu.cable.ntl.com>; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:35:17 +0100 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:35:18 +0100 From: David Powell <djpowell@djpowell.net> X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.51) Professional X-Priority: 4 (Low) Message-ID: <721894579.20050713073518@djpowell.net> To: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> CC: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: More while we're waiting discussion In-Reply-To: <42D300F6.8090206@gmail.com> References: <42D2D230.8080001@intertwingly.net> <42D300F6.8090206@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tuesday, July 12, 2005, 12:29:58 AM, James M Snell wrote: > The third is a non-RDF adaptation of the Creative Commons RSS 1.0 Module > that uses the Atom link element and provides a machine readable license > for entries and feeds. It is described @ > http://www.snellspace.com/wp/?p=184. > <feed> > <link rel="license" > href="http://www.creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/1.0" > xmlns:lic="..."> > <lic:permits>{URI}</lic:permits> > <lic:requires>{URI}</lic:requires> > </link> > </feed> I might be on my own here, but I would advise against extending the link element in this way. I'd say that it is better to use a Structured Extension Element. The section 6.4 Metadata Elements, (particularly Simple Extension Elements, though that might not work in well in this case), are designed so that metadata can be added to entries without requiring every step in the chain to be upgraded, from the publishing client, to the XML processor and database of the server and aggregator. Because the content of atom:link is undefined, there is a risk that some implementations, particularly Atom server implementations accepting entries from a publishing client, might just drop the contents of the element. -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 13 03:11:23 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DsbOs-0005OC-La for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 03:11:23 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA08552 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 03:11:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6D7332H081373; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 00:03:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6D733Qq081372; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 00:03:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6D732NZ081321 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 00:03:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 13 Jul 2005 07:02:55 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-220-161.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.220.161] by mail.gmx.net (mp003) with SMTP; 13 Jul 2005 09:02:55 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:07:49 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de> To: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: More while we're waiting discussion Message-ID: <20050713070749.GD13244@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> References: <42D4389A.4080103@cegetel.net> <42D300F6.8090206@gmail.com> <20050712184242.GA8994@klangraum> <42D41D82.8090309@gmail.com> <20050712204534.GD8994@klangraum> <42D430A1.6090105@gmail.com> <20050713002114.GB11062@klangraum> <42D463EC.30204@gmail.com> <20050713012330.GE11062@klangraum> <42D4983D.6070203@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42D4983D.6070203@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id DAA08552 * James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> [2005-07-13 06:40]: > >Maybe =E2=80=9Ccompanion?=E2=80=9D I don=E2=80=99t know if I like that= term, but it=E2=80=99s > >the best single-word description I can think of off the top of > >my head. >> > I think we could just as easily attach the "you really should > auto-subscribe" semantic to @rel=3D"related" > @type=3D"application/atom+xml" without incurring any need for > coming up with a new link type. That hinges on our respective interpretations of =E2=80=9Crelated.=E2=80=9D= Is it expected that feeds will link to =E2=80=9Crelated=E2=80=9D feeds which ar= e *not* tightly associated with the feed in question? Does there need to be a way for them to do that? If so, then it follows that =E2=80=9Crelated=E2=80=9D is the wrong vehicl= e for this purpose. My opinion is yes, and yes, and hence that is is the wrong vehicle, which leads me to argue for another relationship type. > On a conceptual level more-specific is better, but on a > practical level, a new @rel label doesn't seem to buy us enough > benefit to justify requiring developers to implement support > for it. @rel=3D"related" feeds can simply be handled differently > than other @rel=3D"related" stuff. Hmm. The argument is good, but the premise mistaken. Developers will first and foremost have to support the concept of =E2=80=9Chighly relevant related feed that should probably be polled in addition.=E2=80=9D It doesn=E2=80=99t matter what relationship type that=E2= =80=99s tied to =E2=80=93 it=E2=80=99s implementing the behaviour that takes the bulk = of the work. And this behaviour is not in the core spec to begin with, so an implementor who has chosen to implement it has done so consciously enough that they will know about a new relationship type required for it, and will not be deterred by it. The choice of relationship to tie this behaviour to is but a trivial detail that boils down to comparing to a different string literal in one or at best three or four locations in the codebase. Special-casing [@rel=3D'related' and @type=3D'application/atom+xml'] does not seem to be any simpler to implement than keeping an eye out for @rel=3D'companion'. So by all I can tell, overloading =E2=80=9Crelated=E2=80=9D for this purp= ose only muddies the waters semantically such that loosely related extraneous feeds cannot be distinguished from highly relevant ones =E2=80=93 without offering any actaul simplicity at all in return. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/> From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 13 03:19:11 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DsbWQ-0001pz-V8 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 03:19:11 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA09515 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 03:19:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6D7CleT085534; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 00:12:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6D7CkP2085533; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 00:12:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6D7Cj4H085476 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 00:12:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 13 Jul 2005 07:12:39 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-220-161.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.220.161] by mail.gmx.net (mp003) with SMTP; 13 Jul 2005 09:12:39 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:17:33 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: More while we're waiting discussion Message-ID: <20050713071733.GF13244@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <20050713002114.GB11062@klangraum> <301492AE-F343-11D9-A19D-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <20050713061145.GB13244@klangraum> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050713061145.GB13244@klangraum> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id DAA09515 * A. Pagaltzis <pagaltzis@gmx.de> [2005-07-13 08:11]: > Obviously, my own vote is that it=E2=80=99s fine as is: I see no reason > that dictates that atom:link must point to a concrete Web > resource, rather than just an abstract one =E2=80=93 neither > conceptually/semantically nor in terms of consequences for > implementation of Atom generators and consumers. I should clarify that I defer this to the particular relationship type. In an atom:link[@rel=3D'alternate'], I do absolutely expect the @href to be dereferencable. What I don=E2=80=99t see any reason for is to mandate that @href must always be dereferencable, regardless of whether the semantics of the type in @rel would require that or not. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/> From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 13 03:21:23 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DsbYZ-0002Qf-CF for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 03:21:23 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA09638 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 03:21:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6D78XSl083636; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 00:08:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6D78XMn083635; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 00:08:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6D78VXh083603 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 00:08:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 13 Jul 2005 07:08:26 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-220-161.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.220.161] by mail.gmx.net (mp030) with SMTP; 13 Jul 2005 09:08:26 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:13:19 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de> To: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: More while we're waiting discussion Message-ID: <20050713071319.GE13244@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> References: <42D2D230.8080001@intertwingly.net> <42D300F6.8090206@gmail.com> <721894579.20050713073518@djpowell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <721894579.20050713073518@djpowell.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> * David Powell <djpowell@djpowell.net> [2005-07-13 08:45]: > Because the content of atom:link is undefined, there is a risk > that some implementations, particularly Atom server > implementations accepting entries from a publishing client, > might just drop the contents of the element. We had a discussion recently about this very aspect of the spec, which concluded that there is no reason that extension elements would be disallowed inside atom:link. So per the spec, consumers should expect that extension elements may appear inside atom:link. I do agree that a Simple Extension Element (or several) would be the logical choice for this particular use case, as they offer defined semantics for attaching metadata directly to an entry. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/> From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 13 04:30:45 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dscdg-0002OY-Vm for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 04:30:45 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA14899 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 04:30:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6D8LIGT013626; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 01:21:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6D8LIRU013625; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 01:21:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.dnainternet.net (smtp2.dnainternet.net [62.240.72.111]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6D8LGQe013601 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 01:21:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hsivonen@iki.fi) Received: from 217-140-228-30.adsl-net.finnetcom.net ([217.140.228.30]:53434 "EHLO [217.140.228.30]" TLS-CIPHER: <none>) by smtp2.dnainternet.net with ESMTP id S1230393AbVGMIVP (ORCPT <rfc822;atom-syntax@imc.org>); Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:21:15 +0300 In-Reply-To: <87y88chuee.fsf@nwalsh.com> References: <5af7d60d07729e043252107136629ce2@iki.fi> <87y88chuee.fsf@nwalsh.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <22c8278c8b43861f19b65f21b35318dd@iki.fi> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Henri Sivonen <hsivonen@iki.fi> Subject: Re: RNG validators capable of fully using the Atom schema? Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:21:06 +0300 To: Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Jul 12, 2005, at 19:16, Norman Walsh wrote: > I use Kohsuke's MSV. (msv.dev.java.net) Cool. Thanks. I had allowed relaxng.org tell me that MSV "Supports XML syntax only." -- Henri Sivonen hsivonen@iki.fi http://hsivonen.iki.fi/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 13 05:53:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DsdvS-0002vn-Bs for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 05:53:10 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA22065 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 05:53:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6D4r3ki025101; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:53:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6D4r3wP025100; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:53:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6D4r3Lg025088 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:53:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <200507130452550140033p0fe>; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 04:52:55 +0000 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 22:52:54 -0600 Subject: Re: More while we're waiting discussion Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy <antone@geckotribe.com> To: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <20050713012330.GE11062@klangraum> Message-Id: <F937F171-F359-11D9-A19D-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6D4r3Lg025095 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id FAA22065 On Tuesday, July 12, 2005, at 07:23 PM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > I think what we want to say is that =93aggregators consuming this > feed should consider automatically subscribing to the referenced > feed as well,=94 Automating feed subscriptions isn't something that should be done too =20 lightly[1]. The default behavior for an aggregator should be NOT to do =20 this, and aggregators should give the user the opportunity to control =20 this feature on a feed-by-feed basis. Some sort of same-source policy =20 (like we see with JavaScripts accessing the pages they're loaded into) =20 might be wise to help prevent abuse, but with lots of feeds getting run =20 through services like FeedBurner, that would be far from sufficient. [1] =20 http://www.megginson.com/blogs/quoderat/archives/2005/06/13/the-case-=20 against-easier-feed-subscriptions/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 13 09:47:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DshZs-0008AZ-0T for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:47:08 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA07743 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:47:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6DDcQpC038695; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 06:38:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6DDcQwE038694; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 06:38:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6DDcQRg038655 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 06:38:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <2005071313382001300jr4u1e>; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:38:20 +0000 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:38:18 -0600 Subject: Comment feeds (was Re: More while we're waiting discussion) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy <antone@geckotribe.com> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <20050713062542.GC13244@klangraum> Message-Id: <5F107220-F3A3-11D9-9B58-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday, July 13, 2005, at 12:25 AM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > Another might be that the aggregator asks the user on > subscription whether he/she also wants to poll the comment feed, > There's an implementation detail that should be pointed out, in case it might influence the language ultimately chosen to define this feature. Consider a real world example: I'm subscribed to Slashdot's feed. If they had a comments feed for each story, I would NOT want to subscribe to all of them...in fact, with Slashdot's volume, I'd never want to subscribe to comments, even if they had a separate feed for each entry. Okay, bad example. Imagine a hypothetical feed with low enough volume that one might wish to subscribe to the comments on some of the main entries, but enough volume that one might not wish to subscribe to all comments. Deciding whether to subscribe to comments at the feed level would not be sufficient granularity. The user might want the option to subscribe to comments on an entry-by-entry basis. If all of the comments are in a single comments feed, then an application supporting this would need to be able to track which threads within that feed the user had expressed the wish to see. I'm not saying that's a bad idea--a feed that occasionally gets a comment or two on one of its entries would likely want to use a one comments feed for all entries approach--just pointing it out. In fact, an application that could do that could go a step further and allow the user to stop following specific threads within the comments for a particular entry. So here are the options a user might need: Application level: * Don't subscribe to all comments feeds (default) * Subscribe to all comments feeds (DANGER! Beware of things that go bump in the night!) Feed level: * Don't subscribe to all comments in this feed (default) * Subscribe to all comments in this feed Entry level: * Don't subscribe to comments on this entry (default) * Subscribe to comments on this entry Comment level: * Show this thread (default) * Don't show anything more in this thread Turning a higher level option on turns lower ones on, but shouldn't take away the ability to turn them off. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 13 11:32:27 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DsjDm-0007bC-Q0 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:32:27 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA24215 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:32:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6DFMLWs049901; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:22:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6DFMLHv049900; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:22:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.11]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6DFMIKe049888 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:22:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] ([203.30.247.18] verified) by ironclad.net.au (Stalker SMTP Server 1.7) with ESMTP id S.0000633430 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 23:50:41 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 23:50:36 +1000 Subject: Re: More while we're waiting discussion From: Eric Scheid <eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au> To: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Message-ID: <BEFB594C.62F07%eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au> In-Reply-To: <20050713062542.GC13244@klangraum> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6DFMKKe049894 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id LAA24215 On 13/7/05 4:25 PM, "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de> wrote: > True, but this doesn=B9t detract from my argument that we need to > be able to signify a tighter relationship than just =B3related.=B2 An > aggregator might want to offer different UI for comment feeds, in > contrast to merely =B3related=B2 feeds. Automatic polling of comment > feeds is just one possible behaviour that differentiates the two. An example that comes to mind of different kinds of feeds: say I have a pod-cast with a horkin' mp3 enclosure ... and a link to an Atom Feed Document that contains section by section summaries, complete with some k= ind of link to the time-point in the mp3. That particular Atom Feed Document would never grow, normally, and thus should not be polled. A user might choose to refresh or reload that Atom Feed Document, just in case some errors were updated (just as we do with regular web-pages), but there wouldn't need to be any reason to *poll*. There are probably many other whole->part feed document scenarios. Quick poll: how many feed readers let the user read the current feed document without first requiring them to subscribe. That is, present the content, along with a button "subscribe to future updates". e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 13 11:32:40 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DsjE0-0007hj-C3 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:32:40 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA24239 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:32:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6DFMMvM049909; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:22:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6DFMMhY049908; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:22:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.11]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6DFMIKg049888 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:22:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] ([203.30.247.18] verified) by ironclad.net.au (Stalker SMTP Server 1.7) with ESMTP id S.0000633467 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 00:20:53 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 00:20:47 +1000 Subject: Re: More while we're waiting discussion From: Eric Scheid <eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au> To: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Message-ID: <BEFB605F.62F0B%eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au> In-Reply-To: <20050713071733.GF13244@klangraum> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6DFMMKe049903 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id LAA24239 On 13/7/05 5:17 PM, "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de> wrote: > I should clarify that I defer this to the particular relationship > type. In an atom:link[@rel=3D'alternate'], I do absolutely expect > the @href to be dereferencable. What I don=B9t see any reason for > is to mandate that @href must always be dereferencable, > regardless of whether the semantics of the type in @rel would > require that or not. I've been thinking .. the attribute is @href, not @uri. That=B9s Hypertex= t REFerence, not Universal Resource Identifier. Ignoring the process for a moment ... could we have @href and then also @idref ... then when we mean= to provide a dereferenceable uri we can put it in @href, and when we want to provide an ID reference we can put it in @idref. We can even put both int= o a link, and if the @href returns a 404 or otherwise indicate it is not the thing being sought, then we could try querying an ID resolver to find the new location. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 14 15:32:31 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dt9Rf-0006TX-0p for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:32:31 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA12542 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:32:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6EJNAum070477; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:23:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6EJNAhg070475; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:23:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6EJN8qv070465 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:23:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from derhoermi@gmx.net) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 14 Jul 2005 19:23:02 -0000 Received: from dsl-084-056-238-087.arcor-ip.net (EHLO localhost) [84.56.238.87] by mail.gmx.net (mp028) with SMTP; 14 Jul 2005 21:23:02 +0200 X-Authenticated: #723575 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann <derhoermi@gmx.net> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: The Atom namespace Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 21:23:00 +0200 Message-ID: <42efba1d.280032218@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id PAA12542 Hi, =A0 http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-format-10.txt defines "http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" as namespace for the Atom format. Is this really a good choice considering that most of the similar W3C namespaces use different casing, e.g. http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml=20 http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink=20 http://www.w3.org/2000/svg=20 http://www.w3.org/2001/vxml=20 http://www.w3.org/2001/xml-events=20 http://www.w3.org/2002/xforms=20 http://www.w3.org/2004/xbl ... Though I guess it's to late now to change this... --=20 Bj=F6rn H=F6hrmann =B7 mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de =B7 http://bjoern.hoehr= mann.de Weinh. Str. 22 =B7 Telefon: +49(0)621/4309674 =B7 http://www.bjoernsworld= .de 68309 Mannheim =B7 PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 =B7 http://www.websitedev.d= e/=20 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 14 15:43:35 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dt9cN-00020I-EX for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:43:35 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA13278 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:43:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6EJbvFB072178; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:37:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6EJbvIh072175; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:37:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6EJbu2h072153 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:37:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from derhoermi@gmx.net) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 14 Jul 2005 19:37:50 -0000 Received: from dsl-084-056-238-087.arcor-ip.net (EHLO localhost) [84.56.238.87] by mail.gmx.net (mp016) with SMTP; 14 Jul 2005 21:37:50 +0200 X-Authenticated: #723575 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann <derhoermi@gmx.net> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Section 8 should refer to 5 Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 21:37:47 +0200 Message-ID: <42f1be69.281132062@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id PAA13278 Hi, I think it would be helpful if section 8 ("Security Considerations") of the latest draft includes a reference to section 5 "Securing Atom Documents". regards, --=20 Bj=F6rn H=F6hrmann =B7 mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de =B7 http://bjoern.hoehr= mann.de Weinh. Str. 22 =B7 Telefon: +49(0)621/4309674 =B7 http://www.bjoernsworld= .de 68309 Mannheim =B7 PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 =B7 http://www.websitedev.d= e/=20 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 14 15:55:47 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dt9oB-0001Lr-SY for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:55:47 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14957 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:55:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6EJo38h074059; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:50:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6EJo3Vd074058; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:50:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from newodin.ietf.org ([132.151.6.50]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6EJo3ho074050 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:50:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mlee@newodin.ietf.org) Received: from mlee by newodin.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dt9ic-0006Co-Kc; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:50:02 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-atompub-format-10.txt Message-Id: <E1Dt9ic-0006Co-Kc@newodin.ietf.org> Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:50:02 -0400 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Atom Publishing Format and Protocol Working Group of the IETF. Title : The Atom Syndication Format Author(s) : R. Sayre, M. Nottingham Filename : draft-ietf-atompub-format-10.txt Pages : 56 Date : 2005-7-14 This document specifies Atom, an XML-based Web content and metadata syndication format. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-format-10.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-atompub-format-10.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-format-10.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-7-14111722.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-format-10.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-atompub-format-10.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-7-14111722.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 14 16:07:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dt9z9-0005Fz-LM for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:07:07 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA17668 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:07:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6EJx7EX075296; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:59:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6EJx7Lg075295; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:59:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [10.20.30.249] (adsl-66-125-125-65.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [66.125.125.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6EJx43R075289; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:59:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <p062309ccbefc73a6de45@[10.20.30.249]> In-Reply-To: <42f1be69.281132062@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <42efba1d.280032218@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> References: <42f1be69.281132062@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <42efba1d.280032218@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:58:50 -0700 To: Bjoern Hoehrmann <derhoermi@gmx.net>, atom-syntax@imc.org From: Paul Hoffman <phoffman@imc.org> Subject: Re: The Atom namespace, etc. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> At 9:23 PM +0200 7/14/05, Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: >Hi, > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-format-10.txt >defines "http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" as namespace for the Atom format. >Is this really a good choice considering that most of the similar W3C >namespaces use different casing, e.g. > > http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml > http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink > http://www.w3.org/2000/svg > http://www.w3.org/2001/vxml > http://www.w3.org/2001/xml-events > http://www.w3.org/2002/xforms > http://www.w3.org/2004/xbl > ... > >Though I guess it's to late now to change this... It is indeed. Given that only developers will be typing this in, and they will probably be copying-and-pasting, this seems like a really minor issue, not worth delaying over. At 9:37 PM +0200 7/14/05, Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: > I think it would be helpful if section 8 ("Security Considerations") >of the latest draft includes a reference to section 5 "Securing Atom >Documents". This is rarely done in RFCs. Further, Section 5 is clearly listed in the table of contents, and someone who intends to implement the protocol probably has at least skimmed the document before they read the details in the Security Considerations section. And, the two Security Area Directors have signed off on the Security Considerations section in -10. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 14 16:20:49 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtACP-0004y1-FE for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:20:49 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA23739 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:20:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6EKEWIe076429; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:14:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6EKEWYn076428; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:14:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6EKEVr4076414; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:14:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6EKEUr3010428; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:14:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IJM00BI3W860X@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM>; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:14:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.102.100] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IJM005WVW85MP@mail.sun.net>; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:14:30 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:14:27 -0700 From: Tim Bray <Tim.Bray@Sun.COM> Subject: Re: The Atom namespace, etc. In-reply-to: <p062309ccbefc73a6de45@[10.20.30.249]> To: Paul Hoffman <phoffman@imc.org> Cc: Bjoern Hoehrmann <derhoermi@gmx.net>, atom-syntax@imc.org Message-id: <B17701C2-7882-46AD-ADA6-0761CD0018AB@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <42f1be69.281132062@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <42efba1d.280032218@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <p062309ccbefc73a6de45@[10.20.30.249]> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Jul 14, 2005, at 12:58 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > > And, the two Security Area Directors have signed off on the > Security Considerations section in -10. Which is to say, we need one more sign-off and a couple of bureaucratic buttons pushed, and Atom will be an IETF "proposed standard", and we can all start telling the world, loudly. (It'll be a while, months perhaps, before we get an RFC number, but that turns out not to matter). I'd prefer to wait until we have those sign-offs and those button-pushes before we get too excited, because Things Can Go Wrong. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 14 17:16:51 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtB4d-0005gw-EU for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:16:51 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA18705 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:16:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6EL6i9F083915; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:06:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6EL6iY3083913; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:06:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (imap.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6EL6gfR083837 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:06:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from derhoermi@gmx.net) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 14 Jul 2005 21:06:37 -0000 Received: from dsl-084-056-238-087.arcor-ip.net (EHLO localhost) [84.56.238.87] by mail.gmx.net (mp032) with SMTP; 14 Jul 2005 23:06:37 +0200 X-Authenticated: #723575 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann <derhoermi@gmx.net> To: Paul Hoffman <phoffman@imc.org> Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: The Atom namespace, etc. Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 23:06:34 +0200 Message-ID: <42f2cb16.284377687@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> References: <42f1be69.281132062@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <42efba1d.280032218@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <p062309ccbefc73a6de45@[10.20.30.249]> In-Reply-To: <p062309ccbefc73a6de45@[10.20.30.249]> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id RAA18705 * Paul Hoffman wrote: >This is rarely done in RFCs. Further, Section 5 is clearly listed in=20 >the table of contents, and someone who intends to implement the=20 >protocol probably has at least skimmed the document before they read=20 >the details in the Security Considerations section. Well, I think the lack of detail in 8.5 is confusing and adding a "(see section 5)" in auth48 would improve the legibility of the document; such cross-references are not uncommon in long RFCs either, but I do not feel strongly about this. --=20 Bj=F6rn H=F6hrmann =B7 mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de =B7 http://bjoern.hoehr= mann.de Weinh. Str. 22 =B7 Telefon: +49(0)621/4309674 =B7 http://www.bjoernsworld= .de 68309 Mannheim =B7 PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 =B7 http://www.websitedev.d= e/=20 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 14 21:04:12 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtEcd-0003ul-QS for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 21:04:12 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA26251 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 21:04:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6F0s6PL002953; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:54:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6F0s6wl002952; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:54:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [10.20.30.249] (dsl2-63-249-92-231.cruzio.com [63.249.92.231]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6F0s4lU002946 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:54:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <p06230903befcb944aba4@[10.20.30.249]> Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:54:01 -0700 To: Atom WG <atom-syntax@imc.org> From: Paul Hoffman <phoffman@imc.org> Subject: Request for review: language tags Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> [[ Be sure to send comments to the list below, not to the Atompub WG list. ]] >From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> >To: "Working Group Chairs" <wgchairs@ietf.org> >Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:42:54 -0700 > >Hi - > >Language tags are used in many applications and protocols, so >we'd like to get as broad a review as practical of these: >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-09.txt >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-initial-02.txt >The former would replace RFC 3066 (a BCP), the later would become >an informational RFC. > >The ltru working group last call on these concludes July 28. If you or >people in your WG read either of these, we'd like to hear from you. >Post to ltru@ietf.org, even if all you have to say is "I've read it and >don't have any specific comments on it." > >Randy From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 15 02:46:06 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtJxW-0004Y8-3A for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 02:46:06 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA06901 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 02:46:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6F6b98i068714; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 23:37:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6F6b9g4068712; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 23:37:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6F6b8xc068703 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 23:37:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tbray@textuality.com) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6F6b7r3027290 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 00:37:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fe7 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IJN00JEAP1VUN@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 00:37:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.202.7]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IJN00GKXP1UFP@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 00:37:07 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 23:37:05 -0700 From: Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com> Subject: The Atomic age To: Atom WG <atom-syntax@imc.org> Message-id: <8E8DA6E3-AE2E-4E73-AED2-C33AD6FCF7AF@textuality.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Paul assures me that the remaining IETF process steps will not introduce material technical changes, and so format-10 is appropriate as a basis for implementors to go to work. So, implementors... to work. And everyone, now is a good time to tell the world. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 15 04:41:24 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtLl5-000366-7C for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 04:41:24 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA15085 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 04:41:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6F8WV8E015187; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 01:32:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6F8WVZp015186; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 01:32:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from server02.deinternetman.nl (hosted.by.deinternetman.nl [83.98.145.60] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6F8WUDv015159 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 01:32:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fora@annevankesteren.nl) Received: (qmail 18199 invoked from network); 15 Jul 2005 10:32:29 +0200 Received: from localhost.deinternetman.net (HELO localhost) (127.0.0.1) by localhost.deinternetman.net with SMTP; 15 Jul 2005 10:32:29 +0200 Received: from pat-tdc.opera.com (pat-tdc.opera.com [213.236.208.22]) by webmail.annevankesteren.nl (Horde MIME library) with HTTP for <fora@annevankesteren.nl>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:32:29 +0200 Message-ID: <20050715103229.kz73lrd7ez6ss84g@webmail.annevankesteren.nl> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:32:29 +0200 From: Anne van Kesteren <fora@annevankesteren.nl> To: Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com> Cc: Atom WG <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: The Atomic age References: <8E8DA6E3-AE2E-4E73-AED2-C33AD6FCF7AF@textuality.com> In-Reply-To: <8E8DA6E3-AE2E-4E73-AED2-C33AD6FCF7AF@textuality.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.0.3) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Quoting Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com>: > Paul assures me that the remaining IETF process steps will not > introduce material technical changes, and so format-10 is appropriate > as a basis for implementors to go to work. So, implementors... to > work. And everyone, now is a good time to tell the world. -Tim Yay! (Except for the namespace that is. Ouch!) -- Anne van Kesteren <http://annevankesteren.nl/> From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 15 08:13:41 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtP4X-0001Fp-BX for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:13:41 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA29361 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:13:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FC772e018396; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 05:07:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6FC77iF018395; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 05:07:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpgateway.itweb.no ([213.236.233.197]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FC766M018337 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 05:07:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from nrklt47836.felles.ds.nrk.no (ti541210a080-7673.bb.online.no [83.109.237.253]) by smtpgateway.itweb.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id C92077C2F1; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:49:22 +0200 (CEST) To: "Anne van Kesteren" <fora@annevankesteren.nl>, "Tim Bray" <tbray@textuality.com> Cc: "Atom WG" <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: The Atomic age References: <8E8DA6E3-AE2E-4E73-AED2-C33AD6FCF7AF@textuality.com> <20050715103229.kz73lrd7ez6ss84g@webmail.annevankesteren.nl> Message-ID: <op.styeifaa16f2qb@nrklt47836.felles.ds.nrk.no> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:04:53 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= <asbjorn@tigerstaden.no> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20050715103229.kz73lrd7ez6ss84g@webmail.annevankesteren.nl> User-Agent: Opera M2/8.01 (Win32, build 7642) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id IAA29361 On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:32:29 +0200, Anne van Kesteren =20 <fora@annevankesteren.nl> wrote: > Yay! I second this yay. Yay! > (Except for the namespace that is. Ouch!) Yea, that was a bit awkward. The format has a couple of other minor flaws= =20 as well, but nothing worth fighting for and nothing serious at all. This = =20 is a good specification, all in all. --=20 Asbj=F8rn Ulsberg =ABHe's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away=BB From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 15 08:24:50 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtPFK-0001I5-05 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:24:50 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA00593 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:24:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FCI5Pa022728; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 05:18:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6FCI5vY022727; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 05:18:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FCI4mj022686 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 05:18:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i22so619529wra for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 05:17:59 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=POgoxWoWPuOZeqKDqj3UDMXSLUCxy1zQ40IBrPODpNMMUcEAyzNUll+U5d9xdqgdZxH2WfsJYeZX/nCAeHU4vwcJlJtLMP19goxrbvenUVrTb7mXAgRDwvBYyZxXCl3q+FhCGXzoi8oSkzLO7sKlpX2Y02oGJGmwix51CWMofOc= Received: by 10.54.77.10 with SMTP id z10mr1089424wra; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 05:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.71.13 with HTTP; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 05:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c50507150517ca194b9@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:17:58 -0400 From: Robert Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> Reply-To: Robert Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= <asbjorn@tigerstaden.no> Subject: Re: The Atomic age Cc: Anne van Kesteren <fora@annevankesteren.nl>, Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com>, Atom WG <atom-syntax@imc.org> In-Reply-To: <op.styeifaa16f2qb@nrklt47836.felles.ds.nrk.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <8E8DA6E3-AE2E-4E73-AED2-C33AD6FCF7AF@textuality.com> <20050715103229.kz73lrd7ez6ss84g@webmail.annevankesteren.nl> <op.styeifaa16f2qb@nrklt47836.felles.ds.nrk.no> X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6FCI4mj022721 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id IAA00593 On 7/15/05, Asbj=F8rn Ulsberg <asbjorn@tigerstaden.no> wrote: >=20 > On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:32:29 +0200, Anne van Kesteren > <fora@annevankesteren.nl> wrote: >=20 > > (Except for the namespace that is. Ouch!) >=20 > Yea, that was a bit awkward.=20 http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom/BiKeShEd? (yay!) Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 15 11:31:28 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtS9v-0007i1-VM for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:31:28 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA18919 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:31:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FFMleP071275; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:22:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6FFMla2071274; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:22:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FFMkEV071254 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:22:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2005071515223801100qdc24e>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:22:39 +0000 Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:22:37 -0600 Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-atompub-format-10.txt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy <antone@geckotribe.com> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <E1Dt9ic-0006Co-Kc@newodin.ietf.org> Message-Id: <468D890A-F544-11D9-A15B-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A misspelling...in case the opportunity to fix it arises: "Text Contruct" -- missing an "s" in 6.3. (I found it because I misspelled it the same way when searching for it!) From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 15 11:34:51 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtSDD-0008QQ-LQ for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:34:51 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA19215 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:34:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FFR0XM071843; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:27:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6FFR0jk071842; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:27:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.195]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FFQxr7071831 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:26:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i24so653538wra for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:26:53 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=sI6vSM9tRRfQqfwJe5aEH22toJKz7Wj8xkWOC2XcmLKFHXG/Eq2/67WXalmla2BdGG1pma6hkvMf1+8bhe9ymcw9lT6fu5FwvaZoo2iuIEdz6y4mq9nDxpSkjoK8Ve25lzth/GeebyaXAkMPDcPpVQXldQA3V+j4NVe1TFRZGRQ= Received: by 10.54.33.62 with SMTP id g62mr1149586wrg; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.71.13 with HTTP; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c50507150826462d4b65@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:26:53 -0400 From: Robert Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> Reply-To: Robert Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> To: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: web presence Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6FFQxr7071837 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://atompub.org/ Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 15 11:46:04 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtSO4-0001PQ-Ar for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:46:04 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA20135 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:46:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FFdhA7073125; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:39:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6FFdhLw073124; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:39:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxsf11.cluster1.charter.net (mxsf11.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.211]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FFdg5u073115 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:39:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ndw@nwalsh.com) Received: from mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net (mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.142]) by mxsf11.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6FFdagd011266 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:39:36 -0400 Received: from 68-112-233-63.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com (HELO localhost) (68.112.233.63) by mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 15 Jul 2005 11:39:37 -0400 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,293,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1310361963:sNHT59293342" Received: from ndw by localhost with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DtSHd-00053k-8m for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:39:25 -0400 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-atompub-format-10.txt References: <468D890A-F544-11D9-A15B-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> From: Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com> X-URL: http://nwalsh.com/ Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:39:25 -0400 In-Reply-To: <468D890A-F544-11D9-A15B-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> (Antone Roundy's message of "Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:22:37 -0600") Message-ID: <87hdewgjte.fsf@nwalsh.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) Emacs/21.4 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable / Antone Roundy <antone@geckotribe.com> was heard to say: | A misspelling...in case the opportunity to fix it arises: "Text Contruct" | -- missing an "s" in 6.3. (I found it because I misspelled it the same w= ay | when searching for it!) Also in the "typo" category: # -*- rnc -*- # RELAX NG Compact Syntax Grammar for the # Atom Format Specification Version 09 s/Version 09/Version 1.0/ or maybe just s/Version 09// before it becomes an RFC. Sorry I didn't notice this before. Be seeing you, norm =2D-=20 Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com> | Nothing will ever be attempted, if all http://nwalsh.com/ | possible objections must be first | overcome.--Dr. Johnson --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBC19itOyltUcwYWjsRAobxAJ9ZNBjvfJ6YvacR3NOuu+auJBBQOgCfcmGy ZEIMkgiKHdgTcZMj9k/aXo0= =lTPq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 15 12:04:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtSfZ-0003Qu-TD for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:04:10 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA21382 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:04:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FFuBWw074781; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:56:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6FFuBM1074780; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:56:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.147.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FFuAft074772 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:56:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C014FAE for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (spike.verity.com [192.168.4.22]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j6FFu4kv003860 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:56:10 -0700 From: Walter Underwood <wunder@verity.com> To: Atom WG <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: The Atomic age Message-ID: <FF4CCFA1C38A498DBD661E7B@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <8E8DA6E3-AE2E-4E73-AED2-C33AD6FCF7AF@textuality.com> References: <8E8DA6E3-AE2E-4E73-AED2-C33AD6FCF7AF@textuality.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Mac OS X) X-Face: 7Vqnb4fOVKsO)3JuUXKxR\M]:e"u'eG`Zue*.((7i7%P%rvZgS[j~95@C-s3i (s!e;OX`'Pngn5lq*Td}#,"5!^jm(65.";[GPtD^c(/1TtMe&wYO;_}\!}fRkxs%q#Jk 5E^BlXwR+8}qOwy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On July 14, 2005 11:37:05 PM -0700 Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com> wrote: > > So, implementors... to work. Do we have a list of who is implementing it? That could be used in the "Deployment" section of <http://www.tbray.org/atom/RSS-and-Atom>. Ultraseek will implement Atom. We need to think more about exactly what it means for a search engine to implement it, but we'll at least spider it. wunder "Creature with the Atom Brain, why is he acting so strange?" Roky Erickson -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect, Verity From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 15 12:15:25 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtSqT-0007RA-3n for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:15:25 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA22298 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:15:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FG9q4i075775; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:09:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6FG9quA075774; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:09:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FG9pXI075765 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:09:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FG9or3021718 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:09:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IJO00JMDFKEUN@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:09:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.202.7]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IJO00JDVFKDPY@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:09:50 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:09:47 -0700 From: Tim Bray <Tim.Bray@Sun.COM> Subject: Re: The Atomic age In-reply-to: <FF4CCFA1C38A498DBD661E7B@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> To: Walter Underwood <wunder@verity.com> Cc: Atom WG <atom-syntax@imc.org> Message-id: <1234C843-C483-4F0A-B804-466882C13714@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <8E8DA6E3-AE2E-4E73-AED2-C33AD6FCF7AF@textuality.com> <FF4CCFA1C38A498DBD661E7B@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Jul 15, 2005, at 8:56 AM, Walter Underwood wrote: > > --On July 14, 2005 11:37:05 PM -0700 Tim Bray > <tbray@textuality.com> wrote: > >> >> So, implementors... to work. >> > > Do we have a list of who is implementing it? That could be used in > the "Deployment" section of <http://www.tbray.org/atom/RSS-and-Atom>. Good idea. > > Ultraseek will implement Atom. We need to think more about exactly > what it means for a search engine to implement it, but we'll at > least spider it. Want to write a few words in web-space somewhere, Walter, and we can put that in the Wiki? -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 15 12:45:29 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtTJZ-0004HU-Kp for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:45:29 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA23913 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:45:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FGdsc9079208; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:39:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6FGdsAV079207; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:39:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.198]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FGdrkK079196 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:39:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i11so377551nzi for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:39:47 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=l2zn9Ff0O8sMfs+J27hEmdQBJy3zAR2QDdRUREJQQTi2cJ/P1t88L/eXsXjonv1JewE5k8W9idVEyN7XHJWuBtY62trYgfJ+ZHng6Mie4r15XLGpFLm4P5lkhhHyyLrs6jVH3jSM+AkyqkxyKW0BB4+GzUlEp3PRvAk5elPWupg= Received: by 10.36.36.14 with SMTP id j14mr1384578nzj; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id m2sm828462nzf.2005.07.15.09.39.45; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42D7E6CD.9020703@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:39:41 -0700 From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom WG <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: The Atomic age References: <8E8DA6E3-AE2E-4E73-AED2-C33AD6FCF7AF@textuality.com> In-Reply-To: <8E8DA6E3-AE2E-4E73-AED2-C33AD6FCF7AF@textuality.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Congrats All! I'll be updating my personal blog feed to Atom 1.0 shortly. I've already updated my IBM internal blog feed to Atom 1.0. Took less than five minutes to update from 0.3 to 1.0. Tim Bray wrote: > > Paul assures me that the remaining IETF process steps will not > introduce material technical changes, and so format-10 is appropriate > as a basis for implementors to go to work. So, implementors... to > work. And everyone, now is a good time to tell the world. -Tim > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 15 14:13:25 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtUgf-0003JB-La for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:13:25 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA01123 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:13:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FI6hI0087538; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:06:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6FI6h6f087537; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:06:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FI6hit087531 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:06:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 75870 invoked by uid 17064); 15 Jul 2005 18:06:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.8]) ([83.112.225.241]) (envelope-sender <henry.story@bblfish.net>) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; 15 Jul 2005 18:06:42 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) In-Reply-To: <FF4CCFA1C38A498DBD661E7B@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> References: <8E8DA6E3-AE2E-4E73-AED2-C33AD6FCF7AF@textuality.com> <FF4CCFA1C38A498DBD661E7B@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <74806CC5-44A6-4A47-854F-6D0DB203F02A@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net> Subject: Re: The Atomic age Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 20:06:40 +0200 To: atom-syntax Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It would be easy to add atom to BlogEd, though I really would like the <link rel="&ext;next" href="http://bblfish.net/blog/archive. 10.atom"> to be agreed upon. This would allow me to place all the blog content in an archive. It would of course also be useful to have the namespace. Henry On 15 Jul 2005, at 17:56, Walter Underwood wrote: > > --On July 14, 2005 11:37:05 PM -0700 Tim Bray > <tbray@textuality.com> wrote: > >> >> So, implementors... to work. >> > > Do we have a list of who is implementing it? That could be used in > the "Deployment" section of <http://www.tbray.org/atom/RSS-and-Atom>. > > Ultraseek will implement Atom. We need to think more about exactly > what it means for a search engine to implement it, but we'll at > least spider it. > > wunder > > "Creature with the Atom Brain, why is he acting so strange?" > Roky Erickson > -- > Walter Underwood > Principal Architect, Verity > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 15 15:20:39 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtVjh-0004s7-SR for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:20:39 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA08276 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:20:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FJD3Nr096265; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:13:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6FJD2sK096264; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:13:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FJD2qi096258 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:13:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 10204 invoked by uid 17064); 15 Jul 2005 19:13:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.8]) ([83.112.225.241]) (envelope-sender <henry.story@bblfish.net>) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; 15 Jul 2005 19:13:02 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) In-Reply-To: <74806CC5-44A6-4A47-854F-6D0DB203F02A@bblfish.net> References: <8E8DA6E3-AE2E-4E73-AED2-C33AD6FCF7AF@textuality.com> <FF4CCFA1C38A498DBD661E7B@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> <74806CC5-44A6-4A47-854F-6D0DB203F02A@bblfish.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <E91E99BC-3A62-45E5-8C01-217636F901E6@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net> Subject: Re: The Atomic age Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 21:12:59 +0200 To: atom-syntax Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry. It looks like there is a final namespace: http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom Is that correct? Henry On 15 Jul 2005, at 20:06, Henry Story wrote: > > It would be easy to add atom to BlogEd, though I really would like the > > <link rel="&ext;next" href="http://bblfish.net/blog/archive. > 10.atom"> > > to be agreed upon. This would allow me to place all the blog > content in an > archive. It would of course also be useful to have the namespace. > > Henry > > On 15 Jul 2005, at 17:56, Walter Underwood wrote: > >> >> --On July 14, 2005 11:37:05 PM -0700 Tim Bray >> <tbray@textuality.com> wrote: >> >> >>> >>> So, implementors... to work. >>> >>> >> >> Do we have a list of who is implementing it? That could be used in >> the "Deployment" section of <http://www.tbray.org/atom/RSS-and-Atom>. >> >> Ultraseek will implement Atom. We need to think more about exactly >> what it means for a search engine to implement it, but we'll at >> least spider it. >> >> wunder >> >> "Creature with the Atom Brain, why is he acting so strange?" >> Roky Erickson >> -- >> Walter Underwood >> Principal Architect, Verity >> > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 15 15:27:02 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtVpu-0002Ut-Lp for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:27:02 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA09084 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:26:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FJMBbk097081; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:22:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6FJMBmK097080; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:22:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.200]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FJMA0w097067 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:22:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i36so690342wra for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:22:03 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=U8hdhbcFa0CEd7D+tZmwImmlVuEhZd5vkkpwGMSHyldiyIW2aAv5I3t7v4RrHvlK8qXlyZd7X5yOZj+KOg3seGPjrdR4bo93si9ha8dZTl7KtY3TgpmUiy8FsGkfZP8DPWVzX3QVcfrdt8c2aZUAtMbKwRFltmHeAmU9msG7LOc= Received: by 10.54.41.13 with SMTP id o13mr1224094wro; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.71.13 with HTTP; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c505071512211433153b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:21:23 -0400 From: Robert Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> Reply-To: Robert Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> To: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net> Subject: Re: The Atomic age Cc: atom-syntax Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> In-Reply-To: <E91E99BC-3A62-45E5-8C01-217636F901E6@bblfish.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <8E8DA6E3-AE2E-4E73-AED2-C33AD6FCF7AF@textuality.com> <FF4CCFA1C38A498DBD661E7B@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> <74806CC5-44A6-4A47-854F-6D0DB203F02A@bblfish.net> <E91E99BC-3A62-45E5-8C01-217636F901E6@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6FJMB0w097075 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Absolutely. Robert Sayre On 7/15/05, Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net> wrote: > > Sorry. It looks like there is a final namespace: > > http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom > > Is that correct? > > Henry > > On 15 Jul 2005, at 20:06, Henry Story wrote: > > > > It would be easy to add atom to BlogEd, though I really would like the > > > > <link rel="&ext;next" href="http://bblfish.net/blog/archive. > > 10.atom"> > > > > to be agreed upon. This would allow me to place all the blog > > content in an > > archive. It would of course also be useful to have the namespace. > > > > Henry > > > > On 15 Jul 2005, at 17:56, Walter Underwood wrote: > > > >> > >> --On July 14, 2005 11:37:05 PM -0700 Tim Bray > >> <tbray@textuality.com> wrote: > >> > >> > >>> > >>> So, implementors... to work. > >>> > >>> > >> > >> Do we have a list of who is implementing it? That could be used in > >> the "Deployment" section of <http://www.tbray.org/atom/RSS-and-Atom>. > >> > >> Ultraseek will implement Atom. We need to think more about exactly > >> what it means for a search engine to implement it, but we'll at > >> least spider it. > >> > >> wunder > >> > >> "Creature with the Atom Brain, why is he acting so strange?" > >> Roky Erickson > >> -- > >> Walter Underwood > >> Principal Architect, Verity > >> > > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 15 15:34:31 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtVx9-0006q8-JH for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:34:31 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA09804 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:34:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FJTZuF097825; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:29:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6FJTZdh097824; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:29:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FJTYC3097806 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:29:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6FJSm0f014723 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 20:28:58 +0100 (BST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) In-Reply-To: <FF4CCFA1C38A498DBD661E7B@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> References: <8E8DA6E3-AE2E-4E73-AED2-C33AD6FCF7AF@textuality.com> <FF4CCFA1C38A498DBD661E7B@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <D751B0D9-46D6-46FB-A915-DF34522246D6@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Graham <dtcd@mac.com> Subject: Re: The Atomic age Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 20:28:48 +0100 To: atom-syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 15 Jul 2005, at 4:56 pm, Walter Underwood wrote: > Do we have a list of who is implementing it? That could be used in > the "Deployment" section of <http://www.tbray.org/atom/RSS-and-Atom>. My blog has one here: http://www.fondantfancies.com/blog/atom1/ I think it's valid, though it's hard to tell without a validator or even a parser. I'm currently rewriting the engine of Shrook to be compatible too. (You may also notice I'm doing my little bit to make sure atom:id is implemented properly) Graham Parks From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 15 15:40:23 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtW2p-0001F6-SD for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:40:23 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA10109 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:40:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FJZirp098325; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:35:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6FJZiDc098324; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:35:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.192]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FJZh72098299 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:35:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i27so699997wra for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:35:38 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=cp6AXkQAjKfCP5OEPmb7B9TjaVbZpuCkJvobN0j3IqV7QAGIKDiiVUlnTj/A38dER6HPPmxRTxmCXyRh1ZyBWt4vYfv90zc6Ldkdwg6hbmVMn/d1WzkDVuqqDfUn0YGeTN+sVuXsUIw6ha80Y164NQCZOXG7L1Th3VMd0reMCDE= Received: by 10.54.18.3 with SMTP id 3mr43557wrr; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:35:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.71.13 with HTTP; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:35:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c50507151235220189e2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:35:38 -0400 From: Robert Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> Reply-To: Robert Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> To: Graham <dtcd@mac.com> Subject: Re: The Atomic age Cc: atom-syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> In-Reply-To: <D751B0D9-46D6-46FB-A915-DF34522246D6@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <8E8DA6E3-AE2E-4E73-AED2-C33AD6FCF7AF@textuality.com> <FF4CCFA1C38A498DBD661E7B@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> <D751B0D9-46D6-46FB-A915-DF34522246D6@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6FJZi72098319 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fondantfancies.com%2Fblog%2Fatom1%2F :) Robert Sayre On 7/15/05, Graham <dtcd@mac.com> wrote: > > On 15 Jul 2005, at 4:56 pm, Walter Underwood wrote: > > > Do we have a list of who is implementing it? That could be used in > > the "Deployment" section of <http://www.tbray.org/atom/RSS-and-Atom>. > > My blog has one here: > http://www.fondantfancies.com/blog/atom1/ > > I think it's valid, though it's hard to tell without a validator or > even a parser. I'm currently rewriting the engine of Shrook to be > compatible too. > > (You may also notice I'm doing my little bit to make sure atom:id is > implemented properly) > > Graham Parks > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 15 15:40:54 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtW3K-0001cS-5h for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:40:54 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA10150 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:40:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FJXxt9098166; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:33:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6FJXxfO098165; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:33:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.pubsub.com (mail.pubsub.com [209.11.36.150]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FJXx62098156 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:33:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bobwyman@pubsub.com) Received: from IBMC101DE8DFED (216-107-204-212.WentworthPublicLibrary.nhvt.cust.seg.net [216.107.204.212]) by mail.pubsub.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B382725A02 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:33:46 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: <bobwyman@pubsub.com> From: "Bob Wyman" <bobwyman@pubsub.com> To: "'atom-syntax Syntax'" <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: HTTP Accept Headers for Atom V1.0? Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:33:39 -0400 Organization: PubSub Concepts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0059_01C58952.959969B0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 Thread-Index: AcWJdBmCneIdBVOqTWOJI8ZyTW9qDQ== Message-Id: <20050715193346.2B382725A02@mail.pubsub.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C58952.959969B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What would the HTTP Accept Headers for Atom V1.0 look like? i.e. if I want to tell the server that I want Atom V1.0 but do not want Atom 0.3? bob wyman ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C58952.959969B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)"> <style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} span.EmailStyle17 {mso-style-type:personal-compose; font-family:Arial; color:windowtext;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> </head> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple> <div class=3DSection1> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>What would the HTTP Accept Headers for Atom V1.0 look = like? i.e. if I want to tell the server that I want Atom V1.0 but do not want = Atom 0.3?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>         =             &= nbsp;  bob wyman<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> </body> </html> ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C58952.959969B0-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 15 16:09:22 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtWUr-000365-VK for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:09:22 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA17176 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:09:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FK05ff000635; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:00:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6FK05sV000634; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:00:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FK04uF000626 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:00:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FK04r3004715 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:00:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IJO00M1JQ83ZW@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:00:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.31] ([216.113.202.7]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IJO00CPKQ831H@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:00:03 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:00:02 -0700 From: Tim Bray <Tim.Bray@Sun.COM> Subject: Re: The Atomic age In-reply-to: <68fba5c50507151235220189e2@mail.gmail.com> To: Robert Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> Cc: Graham <dtcd@mac.com>, atom-syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Message-id: <0E1B282C-CFDB-449A-8E1C-7BCD3F881DB2@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <8E8DA6E3-AE2E-4E73-AED2-C33AD6FCF7AF@textuality.com> <FF4CCFA1C38A498DBD661E7B@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> <D751B0D9-46D6-46FB-A915-DF34522246D6@mac.com> <68fba5c50507151235220189e2@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Jul 15, 2005, at 12:35 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: > > http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F% > 2Fwww.fondantfancies.com%2Fblog%2Fatom1%2F Hmm... the feed looks OK to me; I wouldn't be surprised if it's tickling a bug in the just-barely-into-beta Atom 1.0 feedvalidator code. -Tim > > :) > > Robert Sayre > > On 7/15/05, Graham <dtcd@mac.com> wrote: > >> >> On 15 Jul 2005, at 4:56 pm, Walter Underwood wrote: >> >> >>> Do we have a list of who is implementing it? That could be used in >>> the "Deployment" section of <http://www.tbray.org/atom/RSS-and- >>> Atom>. >>> >> >> My blog has one here: >> http://www.fondantfancies.com/blog/atom1/ >> >> I think it's valid, though it's hard to tell without a validator or >> even a parser. I'm currently rewriting the engine of Shrook to be >> compatible too. >> >> (You may also notice I'm doing my little bit to make sure atom:id is >> implemented properly) >> >> Graham Parks >> >> >> > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 15 16:12:26 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtWXq-0007cW-Fj for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:12:26 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA18538 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:12:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FK5bC1001126; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:05:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6FK5brC001125; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:05:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FK5awP001117 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:05:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danbri@w3.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 516B14F08F; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:05:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42D8170E.7060305@w3.org> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 21:05:34 +0100 From: Dan Brickley <danbri@w3.org> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Macintosh/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> Cc: Graham <dtcd@mac.com>, atom-syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: The Atomic age References: <8E8DA6E3-AE2E-4E73-AED2-C33AD6FCF7AF@textuality.com> <FF4CCFA1C38A498DBD661E7B@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> <D751B0D9-46D6-46FB-A915-DF34522246D6@mac.com> <68fba5c50507151235220189e2@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <68fba5c50507151235220189e2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Sayre wrote: >http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fondantfancies.com%2Fblog%2Fatom1%2F > >:) > > > Oh, is it upgraded to be a 1.0 validator? front page talks about 0.3 still... I've just downloaded Jing, been checking things that way using: java -jar jing-20030619/bin/jing.jar -c atom.rnc a2.xml Talking of which... I was just now hesitating as to whether to post this, but here goes. I think there seems to be a non-empty class of XML documents which parse as both RDF/XML and as Atom 1.0. This class may be (a) ugly (b) quirky (c) a frustratingly small subset of Atom 1.0, but it ... seems to exist. I've just check in this evening's experiments; thanks to Norm for some Relax-NG handholding btw. According to Jing and atom.rnc, http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/samples/atom/a1.xml ...seems to be acceptable as Atom. I took the tiny example from the spec, added some RDF'y bits, and fed it to some validators. According to the RDF Validator, it's also RDF/XML (we omit the top level rdf:RDF, so RDF tools would need some other way, eg. media type, to get a clue that it could be parsed into triples). More notes at http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/samples/atom/notes.html Let me emphasise that I'm not claiming these Atom docs "are" reasonably interpreted as RDF. Just that they seem to, by happy coincidence as it were, at least share a syntax with RDF. The intepretation of this syntactic state of affairs is up for discussion. cheers, Dan ps. congrats everyone on getting Atom 1.0 out the door! From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 15 16:13:18 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtWYg-0008LE-86 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:13:18 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA19022 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:13:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FK1EQJ000735; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:01:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6FK1Esc000734; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:01:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FK1Dil000719 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:01:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6FK0cva020361; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 21:00:38 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <42D2D230.8080001@intertwingly.net> References: <42D2D230.8080001@intertwingly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <45B655D5-EEB0-404D-9E47-F0E2AB29F86E@mac.com> Cc: atom-syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Graham <dtcd@mac.com> Subject: Re: FormatTests Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 21:00:39 +0100 To: Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Why does the validator apparently fail outright when SHOULD level requirements are ignored? This seems unnecessary in light of having a spec where conformance levels are clearly defined. Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 15 16:24:41 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtWjh-0003HP-2L for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:24:41 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA25046 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:24:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FKF22A001954; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:15:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6FKF2od001953; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:15:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6FKF0b4001930 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:15:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from derhoermi@gmx.net) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 15 Jul 2005 20:14:54 -0000 Received: from dsl-084-056-208-220.arcor-ip.net (EHLO localhost) [84.56.208.220] by mail.gmx.net (mp033) with SMTP; 15 Jul 2005 22:14:54 +0200 X-Authenticated: #723575 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann <derhoermi@gmx.net> To: Dan Brickley <danbri@w3.org> Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: The Atomic age Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 22:14:52 +0200 Message-ID: <430718e2.369829328@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> References: <8E8DA6E3-AE2E-4E73-AED2-C33AD6FCF7AF@textuality.com> <FF4CCFA1C38A498DBD661E7B@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> <D751B0D9-46D6-46FB-A915-DF34522246D6@mac.com> <68fba5c50507151235220189e2@mail.gmail.com> <42D8170E.7060305@w3.org> In-Reply-To: <42D8170E.7060305@w3.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id QAA25046 * Dan Brickley wrote: >http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/samples/atom/a1.xml `Content-Type: text/xml; qs=3D0.9`. Hurray... --=20 Bj=F6rn H=F6hrmann =B7 mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de =B7 http://bjoern.hoehr= mann.de Weinh. Str. 22 =B7 Telefon: +49(0)621/4309674 =B7 http://www.bjoernsworld= .de 68309 Mannheim =B7 PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 =B7 http://www.websitedev.d= e/=20 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 15 16:35:04 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtWtk-0005PA-9d for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:35:04 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA00152 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:35:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FKLqtn002621; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:21:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6FKLqhj002620; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:21:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FKLqqt002612 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:21:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danbri@w3.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74E634F08F; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:21:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42D81ADE.8060801@w3.org> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 21:21:50 +0100 From: Dan Brickley <danbri@w3.org> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Macintosh/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bjoern Hoehrmann <derhoermi@gmx.net> Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: The Atomic age References: <8E8DA6E3-AE2E-4E73-AED2-C33AD6FCF7AF@textuality.com> <FF4CCFA1C38A498DBD661E7B@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> <D751B0D9-46D6-46FB-A915-DF34522246D6@mac.com> <68fba5c50507151235220189e2@mail.gmail.com> <42D8170E.7060305@w3.org> <430718e2.369829328@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> In-Reply-To: <430718e2.369829328@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: >* Dan Brickley wrote: > > >>http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/samples/atom/a1.xml >> >> > >`Content-Type: text/xml; qs=0.9`. Hurray... > > I could fix that... question is, to what? :) The Atom spec says Atom docs are identified using the Atom media type, but I don't see anything like a 'SHOULD NOT' regarding serving them with other types. In the mixed-format case of an instance being both valid RDF, and valid Atom, we get into pragmatics. RDF tools wouldn't know it was RDF/XML since Atom doesn't allow a toplevel rdf:RDF wrapper element as foreign markup. But Atom tools also have a claim on the content type. Maybe it could be content-negotiable? Something for everybody...? Dan From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 15 17:31:12 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtXm4-0007rX-N8 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:31:12 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA23479 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:31:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FLOl1a007614; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:24:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6FLOlCE007613; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:24:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-vbr11.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr11.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.31]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FLOkox007606 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:24:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sjoerd@w3future.com) Received: from [10.0.0.2] (w3future.xs4all.nl [213.84.155.207]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp-vbr11.xs4all.nl (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j6FLOdnT088280; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 23:24:40 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from sjoerd@w3future.com) Message-ID: <42D8298C.6020607@w3future.com> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 23:24:28 +0200 From: Sjoerd Visscher <sjoerd@w3future.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Brickley <danbri@w3.org> CC: atom-syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: The Atomic age References: <8E8DA6E3-AE2E-4E73-AED2-C33AD6FCF7AF@textuality.com> <FF4CCFA1C38A498DBD661E7B@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> <D751B0D9-46D6-46FB-A915-DF34522246D6@mac.com> <68fba5c50507151235220189e2@mail.gmail.com> <42D8170E.7060305@w3.org> In-Reply-To: <42D8170E.7060305@w3.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan Brickley wrote: > Let me emphasise that I'm not claiming these Atom docs "are" reasonably > interpreted as RDF. Just that they seem to, by happy coincidence as it > were, at least > share a syntax with RDF. The intepretation of this syntactic state of > affairs is > up for discussion. I've never understood what makes hybrid RDF/other xml formats appealing. A simple xslt conversion turnes the xml format (the whole format, not a subset) in much better RDF, with no compromises. -- Sjoerd Visscher http://w3future.com/weblog/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 15 17:37:26 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtXs6-000369-7t for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:37:26 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA25418 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:37:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FLX35r008247; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:33:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6FLX3ru008246; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:33:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FLX3I9008239 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:33:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danbri@w3.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85C434EFE7; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:33:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42D82B8D.3000204@w3.org> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 22:33:01 +0100 From: Dan Brickley <danbri@w3.org> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Macintosh/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sjoerd Visscher <sjoerd@w3future.com> Cc: atom-syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: The Atomic age References: <8E8DA6E3-AE2E-4E73-AED2-C33AD6FCF7AF@textuality.com> <FF4CCFA1C38A498DBD661E7B@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> <D751B0D9-46D6-46FB-A915-DF34522246D6@mac.com> <68fba5c50507151235220189e2@mail.gmail.com> <42D8170E.7060305@w3.org> <42D8298C.6020607@w3future.com> In-Reply-To: <42D8298C.6020607@w3future.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sjoerd Visscher wrote: > Dan Brickley wrote: > >> Let me emphasise that I'm not claiming these Atom docs "are" reasonably >> interpreted as RDF. Just that they seem to, by happy coincidence as >> it were, at least >> share a syntax with RDF. The intepretation of this syntactic state of >> affairs is >> up for discussion. > > > I've never understood what makes hybrid RDF/other xml formats > appealing. A simple xslt conversion turnes the xml format (the whole > format, not a subset) in much better RDF, with no compromises. > It might well be that the XSLT/GRDDL approach is best. It depends what you're using Atom for. Lots of Atom constructs use an <abc def="...">ghi</abc> idiom, which won't parse as RDF. For more "data-oriented" feeds (non-blog stuff, eg. job listings, ecommerce, events, maps etc) much more of the payload will live in extensions anyhow, and using minimal Atom (per my example) might mean the hybrid style finds a niche. For the XSLT/GRDDL case, we'd still need to agree quite which triples to generate, eg. whether to use the same namespace as 'normal' Atom, so there are some details to work out. cheers, Dan From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 15 18:00:20 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtYEF-00047R-T6 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:00:20 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA28433 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:00:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FLnhbD010454; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:49:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6FLnhwC010453; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:49:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.19]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FLngfA010446 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:49:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lists@isofarro.uklinux.net) Received: from user-1378.l5.c3.dsl.pol.co.uk ([84.64.5.98] helo=[192.168.0.2]) by cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.41) id 1DtY3x-0006kH-Im for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 22:49:41 +0100 Message-ID: <42D82EF2.6010208@isofarro.uklinux.net> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 22:47:30 +0100 From: Isofarro <lists@isofarro.uklinux.net> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Query on atom:source/atom:author in draft 10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In defining both an atom:feed and atom:entry, atomAuthor is specified as allowing multiple authors, in both the text description and RELAX-NG formats. The atom:source defines atomAuthor as 0 or 1, not allowing multiple atomAuthors. (Section 4.2.11) Is that what was intended? Just seemed a little inconsistent. Thanks, Mike From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 15 18:24:55 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtYc3-00068l-CD for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:24:55 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA01185 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:24:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FMK6sR012832; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:20:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6FMK6fO012831; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:20:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vanadium.sabren.com (vanadium.sabren.com [67.19.173.84]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FMK5lZ012824 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:20:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.17.108] ([69.111.157.225]) (authenticated bits=0) by vanadium.sabren.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6FMPTMV018157; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:25:29 -0400 Message-ID: <42D83694.1050403@intertwingly.net> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:20:04 -0400 From: Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050404) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham <dtcd@mac.com> CC: atom-syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: FormatTests References: <42D2D230.8080001@intertwingly.net> <45B655D5-EEB0-404D-9E47-F0E2AB29F86E@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <45B655D5-EEB0-404D-9E47-F0E2AB29F86E@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > Why does the validator apparently fail outright when SHOULD level > requirements are ignored? This seems unnecessary in light of having a > spec where conformance levels are clearly defined. Can you be more specific? Perhaps this will help: FormatTests documents my intent. If you see something there that is wrong, by all means, go fix it. What you see with the current validator in terms of Atom 1.0 support is what I was able to cobble together on a plane ride out; and I'm taking a red-eye back tonight. I expect this to be rapidly corrected over the next few days. When I feel that the feedvalidator is anywhere near ready to be considered seriously for Atom 1.0 feeds, I'll post something on my weblog. - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 15 18:38:17 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtYoz-0007U9-8S for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:38:17 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA01892 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:38:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FMUFGC013490; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:30:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6FMUFgm013489; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:30:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc14.comcast.net [216.148.227.89]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FMUFEw013481 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:30:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc14) with SMTP id <20050715223009014009op97e>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 22:30:09 +0000 Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:30:08 -0600 Subject: Re: The Atomic age Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy <antone@geckotribe.com> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <FF4CCFA1C38A498DBD661E7B@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> Message-Id: <FF98562D-F57F-11D9-A15B-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Friday, July 15, 2005, at 09:56 AM, Walter Underwood wrote: > --On July 14, 2005 11:37:05 PM -0700 Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com> > wrote: >> >> So, implementors... to work. > > Do we have a list of who is implementing it? That could be used in > the "Deployment" section of <http://www.tbray.org/atom/RSS-and-Atom>. > I've update Grouper (http://www.geckotribe.com/rss/grouper/) to support conversion of Atom 1.0 to RSS 2.0. A future version will support going the other way...when I get time to complete the major overhaul that will be required to do that. Antone From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 15 18:40:47 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtYrO-0002AO-VD for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:40:47 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA01999 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:40:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FMb5hr013996; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:37:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6FMb5KO013995; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:37:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.204]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6FMb4c7013975 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:37:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 13so410506nzn for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:36:58 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=MxBudsNltzVccheXrZK6fY1YYalkAz/fre1JFxNy2VqeL9mYqeC66uCCQ7Vxp05Fmvc16hUqLhm/wJ9XrtsyRN2dj1ms5z0wXUu8sYX3gjfXcn/RKez6P3Uq7afOcIAubwBAv6PIwTVaneuLS69Bl3IQ3K0nIgCc5LgQQg50AfQ= Received: by 10.36.79.4 with SMTP id c4mr1956325nzb; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 23sm3441552nzn.2005.07.15.15.36.58; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42D83A86.1020906@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:36:54 -0700 From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Isofarro <lists@isofarro.uklinux.net> CC: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: Query on atom:source/atom:author in draft 10 References: <42D82EF2.6010208@isofarro.uklinux.net> In-Reply-To: <42D82EF2.6010208@isofarro.uklinux.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Isofarro wrote: > > > In defining both an atom:feed and atom:entry, atomAuthor is specified > as allowing multiple authors, in both the text description and > RELAX-NG formats. > > The atom:source defines atomAuthor as 0 or 1, not allowing multiple > atomAuthors. (Section 4.2.11) > > Is that what was intended? Just seemed a little inconsistent. > > > Thanks, > Mike > > Whoops. Looks like an editorial oversight.. atomSource = element atom:source { atomCommonAttributes, (atomAuthor? & atomCategory* & atomContributor* & atomGenerator? & atomIcon? & atomId? & atomLink* & atomLogo? & atomRights? & atomSubtitle? & atomTitle? & atomUpdated? & extensionElement*) } atomAuthor? should be atomAuthor* Good catch. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 01:00:38 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dtemx-0002iP-TY for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 01:00:38 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA04440 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 01:00:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6G4iBms041913; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 21:44:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6G4iB1J041912; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 21:44:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6G4iAju041904 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 21:44:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 16 Jul 2005 04:44:03 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-227-96.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.227.96] by mail.gmx.net (mp006) with SMTP; 16 Jul 2005 06:44:03 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 06:48:58 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de> To: "'atom-syntax Syntax'" <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: HTTP Accept Headers for Atom V1.0? Message-ID: <20050716044858.GA4114@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: 'atom-syntax Syntax' <atom-syntax@imc.org> References: <20050715193346.2B382725A02@mail.pubsub.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050715193346.2B382725A02@mail.pubsub.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id BAA04440 * Bob Wyman <bobwyman@pubsub.com> [2005-07-15 21:45]: > What would the HTTP Accept Headers for Atom V1.0 look like? > i.e. if I want to tell the server that I want Atom V1.0 but do > not want Atom 0.3? There is no official MIME type for Atom 0.3, is there? So technically you can=E2=80=99t even ask the server for Atom 0.3. If people do give you that in return for a request for Atom 1.0, well, no standard is going to be much help =E2=80=93 the failure is at their end and you simply can=E2=80=99t do anything about that. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/> From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 03:17:53 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dtgvo-0000Jj-Qj for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 03:17:53 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA00315 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 03:17:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6G77HW1097878; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 00:07:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6G77H11097876; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 00:07:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6G77FFl097832 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 00:07:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian.reschke@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 16 Jul 2005 07:07:09 -0000 Received: from p508F9D46.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (EHLO [192.168.178.21]) [80.143.157.70] by mail.gmx.net (mp034) with SMTP; 16 Jul 2005 09:07:09 +0200 X-Authenticated: #1915285 Message-ID: <42D8B21A.7010408@gmx.de> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 09:07:06 +0200 From: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.5 (Windows/20050711) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> CC: Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net> Subject: Testing the Feed Validator for Atom 1.0, was: The Atomic age References: <8E8DA6E3-AE2E-4E73-AED2-C33AD6FCF7AF@textuality.com> <FF4CCFA1C38A498DBD661E7B@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> <D751B0D9-46D6-46FB-A915-DF34522246D6@mac.com> <68fba5c50507151235220189e2@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <68fba5c50507151235220189e2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, <http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgreenbytes.de%2Ftech%2Fwebdav%2Fwebdav.atom> reports a validation error (feed-level category element), where I think it shouldn't... Best regards, Julian From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 04:02:36 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dthd6-0005oA-4d for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 04:02:36 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA02054 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 04:02:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6G7pKuS014731; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 00:51:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6G7pKpY014730; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 00:51:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6G7pK1s014721 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 00:51:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 91321 invoked by uid 17064); 16 Jul 2005 07:51:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.8]) ([81.249.226.80]) (envelope-sender <henry.story@bblfish.net>) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for <danbri@w3.org>; 16 Jul 2005 07:51:19 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) In-Reply-To: <42D81ADE.8060801@w3.org> References: <8E8DA6E3-AE2E-4E73-AED2-C33AD6FCF7AF@textuality.com> <FF4CCFA1C38A498DBD661E7B@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> <D751B0D9-46D6-46FB-A915-DF34522246D6@mac.com> <68fba5c50507151235220189e2@mail.gmail.com> <42D8170E.7060305@w3.org> <430718e2.369829328@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <42D81ADE.8060801@w3.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <6B01862C-9A85-42F5-B94A-2E4ED9E66283@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net> Subject: Re: The Atomic age Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 09:51:17 +0200 To: Dan Brickley <danbri@w3.org>, atom-syntax Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is the mixed format case really possible? Last time I looked there were problems, such as different tags using attributes with the same name but with different semantics. I thought we were close last time I looked, but not quite there. Henry On 15 Jul 2005, at 22:21, Dan Brickley wrote: > > Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: > > >> * Dan Brickley wrote: >> >> >>> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/samples/atom/a1.xml >>> >>> >> >> `Content-Type: text/xml; qs=0.9`. Hurray... >> >> > I could fix that... question is, to what? :) > > The Atom spec says Atom docs are identified using the Atom media > type, but > I don't see anything like a 'SHOULD NOT' regarding serving them > with other types. > In the mixed-format case of an instance being both valid RDF, and > valid Atom, we > get into pragmatics. RDF tools wouldn't know it was RDF/XML since > Atom doesn't > allow a toplevel rdf:RDF wrapper element as foreign markup. But > Atom tools also > have a claim on the content type. Maybe it could be content- > negotiable? Something > for everybody...? > > Dan > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 04:11:56 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dthm7-0001gm-SP for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 04:11:55 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA02364 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 04:11:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6G81ZRT018297; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 01:01:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6G81Z08018296; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 01:01:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6G81Z9g018281 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 01:01:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danbri@w3.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3CFF4F384; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 04:01:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42D8BEDC.9000403@w3.org> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 09:01:32 +0100 From: Dan Brickley <danbri@w3.org> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Macintosh/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net> Cc: atom-syntax Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: The Atomic age References: <8E8DA6E3-AE2E-4E73-AED2-C33AD6FCF7AF@textuality.com> <FF4CCFA1C38A498DBD661E7B@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> <D751B0D9-46D6-46FB-A915-DF34522246D6@mac.com> <68fba5c50507151235220189e2@mail.gmail.com> <42D8170E.7060305@w3.org> <430718e2.369829328@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <42D81ADE.8060801@w3.org> <6B01862C-9A85-42F5-B94A-2E4ED9E66283@bblfish.net> In-Reply-To: <6B01862C-9A85-42F5-B94A-2E4ED9E66283@bblfish.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henry Story wrote: > Is the mixed format case really possible? Last time I looked there > were problems, > such as different tags using attributes with the same name but with > different > semantics. I thought we were close last time I looked, but not quite > there. > It seems feasible for a somewhat constrained subset, on first investigation. Dan From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 05:29:33 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtizF-0003X3-Kr for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 05:29:33 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA04798 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 05:29:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6G9K20r050049; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 02:20:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6G9K2U5050048; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 02:20:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.200]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6G9K2Qs049970 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 02:20:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id r28so480702nza for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 02:19:56 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=Vaqe1h3qy2wOEXMLEPFJsbLToAfi/Xp+iY78BlNZY3UKa6ZkLm+Y53wN7RcpMTkNWye5uDXW88cls0l03FoBiHnmRmQ11h+vDWGSBcEnyIvOzlOR8FcQDH0xEiNbfzcwVoSDzKY9e/bfIBXGfOMnaxIghAfR0m4B/4XqsWCAhvY= Received: by 10.36.103.20 with SMTP id a20mr1978355nzc; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 02:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.47.13 with HTTP; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 02:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0507160219778b3fea@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:19:56 +0200 From: Danny Ayers <danny.ayers@gmail.com> Reply-To: Danny Ayers <danny.ayers@gmail.com> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Evangelism, etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6G9K2Qs050042 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If I could distract folks from the champagne and crudities for a moment: First - I just received a rewrite of the spec draft in nicely-styled XHTML 1.0, from someone (who wishes to remain anonymous) who refers to the IETF docs as "sooooo 1989" - http://dannyayers.com/atom/draft-ietf-atompub-format-10.xhtml Second - I just read 3 reviews of Atom (linked from Dave Winer's blog) containing significant criticism, much of it valid. However the target of these posts wasn't Atom itself, but the 'RSS 2.0 and Atom Compared' doc (on the Wiki/Tim's snapshot). It does make sense to make the info available in a friendly fashion, but in this case it seems to have backfired. A suggestion for subsequent material - assume the RSS community doesn't know the difference between normative and informative. Third - any suggestions for something useful to do with the 'Finally Atom' blog/data [1]? I set it up on a TypePad account when they were beta, but have been paying for it since they came out of beta. I can't really justify the expense any more, especially since I don't really have time to make it any more interesting than endless 'X supports Atom'. (I don't think the protocol needs promotion in the same way as the format did). On a not-unrelated note - who's the best contact for atomenabled.org? Cheers, Danny. [1] http://danja.typepad.com/fecho/ -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 06:07:33 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dtja1-0003LF-Ri for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 06:07:33 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA06011 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 06:07:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6G9uskI064392; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 02:56:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6G9uso4064391; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 02:56:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.200]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6G9urAD064357 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 02:56:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id q3so485229nzb for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 02:56:48 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=ReU3etXyT4ieRYDi4j1sdorkza+B7jpcrwn5HtvAsMV+I+biCcsXfHwRGK9edH6/tpYK/webE3xdLnBiklT29zDVvLOVL3KOPfaxDxsqH0sUwvDmUmlFLauHzcOoGpHFDQofq5XTQ1ppameRfDK6J6BU/ekrJeTuIvIvJlXTa7M= Received: by 10.36.120.13 with SMTP id s13mr1987409nzc; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 02:56:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.47.13 with HTTP; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 02:56:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd05071602566cd91799@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:56:48 +0200 From: Danny Ayers <danny.ayers@gmail.com> Reply-To: Danny Ayers <danny.ayers@gmail.com> To: rubys@intertwingly.net Subject: Media extensions Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6G9usAD064385 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sam - would I be thinking you've been trying to encourage the Yahoo! Media RSS folks to go IETF? What's the position with that? Background - as I'm sure everyone is aware, both Yahoo! and Apple have come out with extensions of RSS 2.0 for media. Yahoo! did there's in a relatively open list, though not through a standards org (I think ). Apple's was close-door, result: lot of overlap, clunky. But whatever, there's a need for audio/visual media description support in Atom. It would be better if this happened in a more controlled fashion than what's happened with RSS. Personally I'd like to see RDF compatibility from the start too. It's relatively straighforward to cover the Yahoo! & Apple extensions in the RDF model (with owl:equivalentProperty as appropriate) but I'm betting the code to usefully convert from the syntaxes in a useful fashion won't be trivial (how's validation coming along?). There's been a fair amount of related work done around RDF already (though not in the syndication domain), e.g. MPEG-7 is available in OWL. So, any thoughts on what might be a good approach to this? Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 06:43:12 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dtk8W-0001wr-9e for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 06:43:12 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA07364 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 06:43:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GASUhi075826; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 03:28:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6GASUZJ075825; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 03:28:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GASTnw075787 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 03:28:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6GARjUj005744; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:27:51 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <42D83694.1050403@intertwingly.net> References: <42D2D230.8080001@intertwingly.net> <45B655D5-EEB0-404D-9E47-F0E2AB29F86E@mac.com> <42D83694.1050403@intertwingly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <BA000347-89BA-492A-8C55-9D8C37AC6F93@mac.com> Cc: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Graham <dtcd@mac.com> Subject: Re: FormatTests Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:27:45 +0100 To: Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 15 Jul 2005, at 11:20 pm, Sam Ruby wrote: > Can you be more specific? If I plug my new Atom 1.0 feed into the validator: http://www.feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F% 2Fwww.fondantfancies.com%2Fblog%2Fatom1%2F Last night, it said the feed wasn't valid, but today it's saying: "Warning: This feed is valid, but may cause problems for some users. We recommend fixing these problems." I'm not sure about this wording, but providing a warning is fine. Also: "Solution: Use the canonical form, given in the warning message." Are you advocating changing permanent identifiers? Bad Sam. ID canonicalization was a bloody stupid idea. Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 13:31:25 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtqVZ-0008Ln-N6 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:31:25 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA16073 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:31:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GHJ5kR061904; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:19:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6GHJ5Hb061903; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:19:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6GHJ4It061896 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:19:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian.reschke@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 16 Jul 2005 17:18:58 -0000 Received: from p508F9D46.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (EHLO [192.168.178.21]) [80.143.157.70] by mail.gmx.net (mp002) with SMTP; 16 Jul 2005 19:18:58 +0200 X-Authenticated: #1915285 Message-ID: <42D94170.7070305@gmx.de> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 19:18:40 +0200 From: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.5 (Windows/20050711) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Danny Ayers <danny.ayers@gmail.com> CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Evangelism, etc. References: <1f2ed5cd0507160219778b3fea@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd0507160219778b3fea@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Danny Ayers wrote: > If I could distract folks from the champagne and crudities for a moment: > > First - I just received a rewrite of the spec draft in nicely-styled > XHTML 1.0, from someone (who wishes to remain anonymous) who refers to > the IETF docs as "sooooo 1989" - > > http://dannyayers.com/atom/draft-ietf-atompub-format-10.xhtml > ... Just run the XML version of the spec through rfc2629toXhtml.xslt (<http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc2629xslt/rfc2629toXHTML.xslt>). Best regards, Julian From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 13:50:23 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dtqnv-0006RO-Fb for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:50:23 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA16750 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:50:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GHfGLl063120; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:41:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6GHfGrB063119; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:41:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.200]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GHfFCg063110 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:41:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i31so820695wra for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:41:09 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=cCmc/E5eY2nK9WoYAcT/VDsbWLTpqTzyEcUFsUinIAfbATYdJGktwjr1/j/nYpqazr7mRwyh2OSfe/HFilAOi3GhKlUSpdYbNy5yGYWIi5MuQNeumaRaozqIUWsq1skMMxEbaoz9nVFIphgmejNu78sfz3l2/weGZ2bptVgXZz8= Received: by 10.54.35.58 with SMTP id i58mr1478816wri; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:40:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.71.13 with HTTP; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:40:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c50507161040450874b0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:40:25 -0400 From: Robert Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> Reply-To: Robert Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> To: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de> Subject: Re: Evangelism, etc. Cc: Danny Ayers <danny.ayers@gmail.com>, atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <42D94170.7070305@gmx.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <1f2ed5cd0507160219778b3fea@mail.gmail.com> <42D94170.7070305@gmx.de> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6GHfFCg063114 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/16/05, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de> wrote: > > > > http://dannyayers.com/atom/draft-ietf-atompub-format-10.xhtml > > ... > > Just run the XML version of the spec through rfc2629toXhtml.xslt > (<http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc2629xslt/rfc2629toXHTML.xslt>). There is an HTML version of the spec here: http://atompub.org/. It was there when Danny sent his email, so I'm not sure what all the whinging is about. Cleaning up the XML version of the spec for re-use is a little bit of work, since it's actually part of a build process that validates the examples and inserts the schema and fragments from external files. Secondly, the spec hasn't been approved by the IESG yet, so replicating possibly-inaccurate copies of the spec claiming to be "Atom 1.0" could be bad. Ideally, I would want to wait until any bugs were fixed in AUTH48, but I recognize that will probably be too long a wait. So, I will clean up the XML version after IESG approval and make it available. If folks want to make the HTML version of the spec on atompub.org fancier in some way, that's no problem. Also, atompub.org is currently hosted by yours truly, but I'm not attached to it. If someone wants to improve it, take it over, host it in a secure facility, etc I'd be happy to transfer it or share responsibility. Contact me offline if interested. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 14:01:35 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dtqyl-0001MG-HH for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:01:35 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA16972 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:01:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GHrcXh063929; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:53:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6GHrc4m063928; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:53:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.197]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GHrcNf063917 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:53:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id z3so526640nzf for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:53:32 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Hyy0dppd1GoynbJZnC08zk/c89ue0a74pV5MQI/SfiuxKgmSJi/4Vqhn1Jd55DtDDWTtyBkFflOw4U5x+gOwr1bfJOzBEqPaT8NZRBhyNelDkhc2eI61eLSVr50RpXAk4d7SwrchI0xxibgpjO+RzJGrh4V9H1rySsgt7bXUQxk= Received: by 10.36.67.7 with SMTP id p7mr2595484nza; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:53:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 8sm3183611nzn.2005.07.16.10.53.31; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:53:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42D94998.5050408@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:53:28 -0700 From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Danny Ayers <danny.ayers@gmail.com> CC: rubys@intertwingly.net, atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Media extensions References: <1f2ed5cd05071602566cd91799@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd05071602566cd91799@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Let's see if we can avoid the IETF process for now and encourage Yahoo and Apple to get together with the community to work on some a common approach, get some implementations out there to evolve it a bit, then evaluate later whether or not IETF standardization makes sense. If the community can drive a viable solution without the overhead of a formalized standardization process, it will work out best for everyone and the anti-formal-standards crowd will have far less to complain about or will at least be able to devote more time to bashing atom ;-) Danny Ayers wrote: >Sam - would I be thinking you've been trying to encourage the Yahoo! >Media RSS folks to go IETF? What's the position with that? > >Background - as I'm sure everyone is aware, both Yahoo! and Apple have >come out with extensions of RSS 2.0 for media. Yahoo! did there's in a >relatively open list, though not through a standards org (I think ). >Apple's was close-door, result: lot of overlap, clunky. But whatever, >there's a need for audio/visual media description support in Atom. It >would be better if this happened in a more controlled fashion than >what's happened with RSS. > >Personally I'd like to see RDF compatibility from the start too. It's >relatively straighforward to cover the Yahoo! & Apple extensions in >the RDF model (with owl:equivalentProperty as appropriate) but I'm >betting the code to usefully convert from the syntaxes in a useful >fashion won't be trivial (how's validation coming along?). There's >been a fair amount of related work done around RDF already (though not >in the syndication domain), e.g. MPEG-7 is available in OWL. > >So, any thoughts on what might be a good approach to this? > >Cheers, >Danny. > > > > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 14:06:46 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dtr3m-00033r-Po for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:06:46 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA17035 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:06:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GEgSEU051813; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 07:42:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6GEgSvU051812; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 07:42:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6GEgQRX051804 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 07:42:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from derhoermi@gmx.net) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 16 Jul 2005 14:42:20 -0000 Received: from dsl-084-056-235-232.arcor-ip.net (EHLO localhost) [84.56.235.232] by mail.gmx.net (mp008) with SMTP; 16 Jul 2005 16:42:20 +0200 X-Authenticated: #723575 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann <derhoermi@gmx.net> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: "White-space" Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:42:16 +0200 Message-ID: <430f17e9.435116062@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id OAA17035 Hi, http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-format-10.txt refers to "white-space" a couple of times but does not define this term. The exact definition is important to know for 4.1.3.3 item 6 and I would like to avoid to /assume/ that this means any number of U+0020, U+0009, U+000D, U+000A characters. regards, --=20 Bj=F6rn H=F6hrmann =B7 mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de =B7 http://bjoern.hoehr= mann.de Weinh. Str. 22 =B7 Telefon: +49(0)621/4309674 =B7 http://www.bjoernsworld= .de 68309 Mannheim =B7 PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 =B7 http://www.websitedev.d= e/=20 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 14:06:47 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dtr3n-000343-AV for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:06:47 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA17039 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:06:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GFCmx8053978; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 08:12:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6GFCmS5053977; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 08:12:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bork.markbaker.ca (static-80-155.dsl.cuic.ca [216.126.80.155] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GFClAh053971 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 08:12:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from distobj@acm.org) Received: from mbaker by bork.markbaker.ca with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1DtoMS-0003o1-00 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:13:52 -0400 Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:13:52 -0400 From: Mark Baker <distobj@acm.org> To: "'atom-syntax Syntax'" <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: HTTP Accept Headers for Atom V1.0? Message-ID: <20050716151351.GA29203@markbaker.ca> References: <20050715193346.2B382725A02@mail.pubsub.com> <20050716044858.GA4114@klangraum> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050716044858.GA4114@klangraum> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> On Sat, Jul 16, 2005 at 06:48:58AM +0200, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > * Bob Wyman <bobwyman@pubsub.com> [2005-07-15 21:45]: > > What would the HTTP Accept Headers for Atom V1.0 look like? > > i.e. if I want to tell the server that I want Atom V1.0 but do > > not want Atom 0.3? > > There is no official MIME type for Atom 0.3, is there? Well, "official" in the sense that a spec was written and code was written to that spec; it's "application/atom+xml"; However, the canonical serialization of an Atom document is XML 1.0, and this is the only serialization that can be identified with the "application/atom+xml" media type. -- http://www.mnot.net/drafts/draft-nottingham-atom-format-02.html So to answer's Bob's question, "You can't do that". Mark. -- Mark Baker. Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA. http://www.markbaker.ca Coactus; Web-inspired integration strategies http://www.coactus.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 14:06:48 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dtr3o-00034F-1i for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:06:48 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA17056 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:06:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GFGpl3054300; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 08:16:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6GFGpR1054299; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 08:16:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GFGnFW054289 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 08:16:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i23so806130wra for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 08:16:44 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=NDDEfF+Bz+pl1kiQL9Mzn+Kktan3/O0D5kH20tZ+iXKvoerTHhi0PWSTB8JuphBGFcTFtL7G9CZycQoU6gpli+QxKxf9g17MnuqdHNKpSn/8heNvMG5IKmwEvF6/kAdjGy3b9wGZInlx5CpUVwrK6USeX9s54SPSde1WjRbi2bo= Received: by 10.54.141.20 with SMTP id o20mr1467947wrd; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 08:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.71.13 with HTTP; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 08:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c5050716081633e7ba4b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:16:44 -0400 From: Robert Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> Reply-To: Robert Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> To: Danny Ayers <danny.ayers@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Evangelism, etc. Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd0507160219778b3fea@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <1f2ed5cd0507160219778b3fea@mail.gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6GFGoFW054293 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/16/05, Danny Ayers <danny.ayers@gmail.com> wrote: > Second - I just read 3 reviews of Atom (linked from Dave Winer's blog) > containing significant criticism, much of it valid. However the target > of these posts wasn't Atom itself, but the 'RSS 2.0 and Atom Compared' > doc (on the Wiki/Tim's snapshot). It does make sense to make the info > available in a friendly fashion, but in this case it seems to have > backfired. I found the criticism pathetic. Don Park: "They used the roadmap to portray RSS as a deadend road." -- Uh, the point was that the IETF process allows bugfixing (Draft Standard, Full Standard) if absolutely necessary. The "Dave Winer process" does not allow for this. Tim's document is clear. "Sillyness followed by misinformation. HTML is not XML which is why HTML had to be escaped. They also failed to note that there are XHTML embedding issues." -- RSS2's description element can't contain XHTML. Once again, the point couldn't be more correct. "Both mentioned specs can be used in RSS 2.0 just fine." -- yeah, if you, um, standardize on how you're going to use them. Accurate once again. As for Alex Bosworth's post, a commenter said "This post is rubbish and way off base." I'm inclined to agree. Seems like a publicity stunt. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 14:12:44 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dtr9Y-0005Fv-L5 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:12:44 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA17224 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:12:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GI2YB5064408; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:02:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6GI2YSl064407; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:02:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (imap.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6GI2W96064391 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:02:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 16 Jul 2005 18:02:26 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-247-129.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.247.129] by mail.gmx.net (mp006) with SMTP; 16 Jul 2005 20:02:26 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:07:23 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Evangelism, etc. Message-ID: <20050716180723.GA6092@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <1f2ed5cd0507160219778b3fea@mail.gmail.com> <42D94170.7070305@gmx.de> <68fba5c50507161040450874b0@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <68fba5c50507161040450874b0@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id OAA17224 * Robert Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> [2005-07-16 19:50]: > There is an HTML version of the spec here: http://atompub.org/. > It was there when Danny sent his email, so I'm not sure what > all the whinging is about. I like both versions for different reasons. Thanks, of course, for providing a HTML rendition =E2=80=93 I, too, have to say I find the ASCII versions very 1989. (I use rfc.net to read RFCs so there is at least a modicum of formatting and actual, you know, links.) > replicating possibly-inaccurate copies of the spec claiming to > be "Atom 1.0" could be bad. People should be implored to keep the draft-foo moniker and keep an eye on the process in order to update their copies if they do want to host such, I guess. All copies/renditions I=E2=80=99ve seen so far would seem to satisfy the criteria. But yeah, spreading copies that run the risk of getting outdated is unwise. I think the addresses we have so far (per IETF, on atompub.org, and the other fancy copy on Danny=E2=80=99s site) should suffice as bookmark fodder. > Also, atompub.org is currently hosted by yours truly, but I'm > not attached to it. Thanks for your investment here, also. > Contact me offline if interested. You mean offlist? :-) Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/> From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 14:30:27 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtrQh-0005IY-P9 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:30:27 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA22039 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:30:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GIKshi065397; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:20:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6GIKsDw065396; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:20:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GIKr3p065389 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:20:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GIKrvU001691 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:20:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fe7 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IJQ002DGGASRJ@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:20:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.24] ([216.113.202.7]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IJQ00GK3GASFG@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:20:52 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:20:51 -0700 From: Tim Bray <Tim.Bray@Sun.COM> Subject: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies To: atom-syntax WG <atom-syntax@imc.org> Message-id: <D509225C-0BE2-4774-966E-6E07C178C67F@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6GIKs3p065391 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id OAA22039 I got an email last night from a well known syndication implementor =20 pointing out an obvious bug in my Atom feed. The feed's valid, but =20 the stuff in <content> was full of relative URIs which were broken =20 because I'd borked the xml:base. So I went through the code and got =20 the xml:base right and ruthlessly pruned all the pointers. The feed =20 looks a little weird and it's giving the (pre-alpha) validator a =20 heartburn, but I sort of think it's right. I also think it's good =20 practice. Check it out: <feed xmlns=3D'http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom' xml:base=3D'http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/' xml:lang=3D'en-us'> <title>ongoing rsslogo.jpg /favicon.ico 2005-07-16T11:17:23-08:00 Tim Bray ongoing fragmented essay by Tim Bray http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/ All content written by Tim Bray and photos by Tim Bray =20 Copyright Tim Bray, some rights reserved, see /ongoing/misc/=20 Copyright Generated from XML source code using =20 Perl, Expat, XML::Parser, Emacs, Mysql, and ImageMagick. Industrial =20 strength technology, baby. Atom 1.0 http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2005/07/14/Atom-1.0 2005-07-14T13:00:00-08:00 2005-07-16T11:17:12-08:00
It=92= s =20 cooked ... eliding ...
... eliding ... 3D"Atom"/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 14:30:40 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtrQu-0005K1-JP for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:30:40 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA22063 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:30:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GIIXCB065278; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:18:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6GIIXJ1065277; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:18:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6GIIV0l065268 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:18:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from derhoermi@gmx.net) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 16 Jul 2005 18:18:25 -0000 Received: from dsl-084-056-235-232.arcor-ip.net (EHLO localhost) [84.56.235.232] by mail.gmx.net (mp020) with SMTP; 16 Jul 2005 20:18:25 +0200 X-Authenticated: #723575 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann To: "A. Pagaltzis" Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Evangelism, etc. Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:18:22 +0200 Message-ID: <43114f05.449224703@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> References: <1f2ed5cd0507160219778b3fea@mail.gmail.com> <42D94170.7070305@gmx.de> <68fba5c50507161040450874b0@mail.gmail.com> <20050716180723.GA6092@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20050716180723.GA6092@klangraum> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id OAA22063 * A. Pagaltzis wrote: >I like both versions for different reasons. Thanks, of course, >for providing a HTML rendition =E2=80=93 I, too, have to say I find the >ASCII versions very 1989. (I use rfc.net to read RFCs so there is >at least a modicum of formatting and actual, you know, links.) There is http://www.apps.ietf.org/rfc/ of course... --=20 Bj=C3=B6rn H=C3=B6hrmann =C2=B7 mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de =C2=B7 http://= bjoern.hoehrmann.de Weinh. Str. 22 =C2=B7 Telefon: +49(0)621/4309674 =C2=B7 http://www.bjoern= sworld.de 68309 Mannheim =C2=B7 PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 =C2=B7 http://www.websit= edev.de/=20 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 14:34:50 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtrUw-0006uW-Ih for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:34:50 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA22221 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:34:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GIR6xT065738; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:27:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6GIR6al065737; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:27:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6GIR5DP065729 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:27:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 16 Jul 2005 18:26:59 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-247-129.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.247.129] by mail.gmx.net (mp013) with SMTP; 16 Jul 2005 20:26:59 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:31:57 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Media extensions Message-ID: <20050716183157.GB6092@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <1f2ed5cd05071602566cd91799@mail.gmail.com> <42D94998.5050408@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42D94998.5050408@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id OAA22221 * James M Snell [2005-07-16 20:05]: > If the community can drive a viable solution without the > overhead of a formalized standardization process, it will work > out best for everyone and the anti-formal-standards crowd will > have far less to complain about or will at least be able to > devote more time to bashing atom ;-) Yeah =E2=80=93 wasn=E2=80=99t the idea about specifying extension mechani= sms so thoroughly in the Atom format spec that it would allow anyone to bolt on things via a variety of available hooks, ad-hoc, without needing to define semantics and having worry about interop anew each time? A strong base spec should be able to carry organic growth without requiring reliance on the legitimization of a standards body to make things work; legitimization can be granted retrospectively by writing down existing practice. (I am reminded of Shirky=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9Cpraise of evolvable systems.=E2=80=9D And he= ck, Atom itself is an example of this.)=20 So yeah, I don=E2=80=99t Yahoo or Apple need to be pushed towards a standards body. It would be enough if are willing to iterate their specs before finalizing them, with input from a crowd of eyeballs. Apple seems willing to do that now; John Gruber argues it=E2=80=99s because they were scampering to get to the market with podcasting in iTunes. Yahoo has been, from the start. I think the timing for Atom going gold couldn=E2=80=99t have been much better; had it taken a bit more time, then all discussion of the podcasting and media extensions would have had to revolve solely around RSS since there wouldn=E2=80=99t have been any Atom format to think about. We should be glad that the spec was pushed through at the final stages; a tip of the hat to the WG chairs and members who insisted on making haste with a Good Enough text. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 15:53:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dtsij-00012o-I1 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 15:53:09 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA28250 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 15:53:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GJdvR5070582; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:39:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6GJdvej070581; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:39:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.199]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GJdvON070574 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:39:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id z6so549312nzd for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:39:51 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=sG7YdQOaaXm7pVXUhxvfoNlzjY5xGKk2NDALUx5NIXfm1KcO9I8o+A4acHGPIHVgcLxC9uycR11Mtv0GxVfQ7NFbSy08ooeUdUBhFy4T2mnMDLrGcpwqWW9S8RFgcFmsQuL8RoTj9U2fwSVY6yJmSS2Cewc+speF76xk/stk3jM= Received: by 10.36.101.20 with SMTP id y20mr1935141nzb; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.47.13 with HTTP; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd05071612396c6ebf3f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:39:51 +0200 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Media extensions In-Reply-To: <20050716183157.GB6092@klangraum> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Disposition: inline References: <1f2ed5cd05071602566cd91799@mail.gmail.com> <42D94998.5050408@gmail.com> <20050716183157.GB6092@klangraum> X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6GJdvON070576 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id PAA28250 On 7/16/05, A. Pagaltzis wrote: >=20 > * James M Snell [2005-07-16 20:05]: > > If the community can drive a viable solution without the > > overhead of a formalized standardization process, it will work > > out best for everyone and the anti-formal-standards crowd will > > have far less to complain about or will at least be able to > > devote more time to bashing atom ;-) Yahoo!'s approach did seem to work very well without any formal process, effectively just a mailing list and editor. But then Apple came along... > Yeah =96 wasn't the idea about specifying extension mechanisms so > thoroughly in the Atom format spec that it would allow anyone to > bolt on things via a variety of available hooks, ad-hoc, without > needing to define semantics and having worry about interop anew > each time?=20 Indeed it was. But for the extensions themselves, there is still plenty of scope for poor design and near-(but not quite)-duplication of work. I'm honestly not sure there's any group activity that could help, but while there are still people in the room I think it's worth considering. *If* a WG-like approach to media in Atom was the best approach, now would be the time to do it. A strong base spec should be able to carry organic > growth without requiring reliance on the legitimization of a > standards body to make things work; legitimization can be granted > retrospectively by writing down existing practice. (I am reminded > of Shirky's "praise of evolvable systems." And heck, Atom itself > is an example of this.) >=20 > So yeah, I don't Yahoo or Apple need to be pushed towards a > standards body. It would be enough if are willing to iterate > their specs before finalizing them, with input from a crowd of > eyeballs. Apple seems willing to do that now; John Gruber argues > it's because they were scampering to get to the market with > podcasting in iTunes.=20 Ah, that's good to hear. > Yahoo has been, from the start. >=20 > I think the timing for Atom going gold couldn't have been much > better; had it taken a bit more time, then all discussion of the > podcasting and media extensions would have had to revolve solely > around RSS since there wouldn't have been any Atom format to > think about.=20 Hmm, how podcasts are there?=20 How many are in Atom?=20 How do you even *do* a podcast in Atom? (This is kind-of what I'm trying to get at ;-) What clients support podcasts in Atom?=20 We should be glad that the spec was pushed through > at the final stages; a tip of the hat to the WG chairs and > members who insisted on making haste with a Good Enough text. Yep, good men. Cheeers, Danny. --=20 http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 16:02:01 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtsrJ-0003q4-Ob for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:02:01 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA28654 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:01:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GJoG4Z071057; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:50:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6GJoGJe071056; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:50:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GJoFPf071039 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:50:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i35so831193wra for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:50:09 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=n3CuVYgJHhbbHIGerD3oNJ4/cWHRAEXru+x/JvUlosh+tb9BHx1A42r+4SSlgJgWOt77stGGKNPnfrQYWV1o6/nfhDEG2pB02Tkip2BeUuSY/HcUDefkjjKImeONAAl4Em/+FgVDbcQdVEIaFCufkRk4grtQPmRC+BEbGYx46GI= Received: by 10.54.122.18 with SMTP id u18mr1506011wrc; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.71.13 with HTTP; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c505071612499843b96@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 15:49:12 -0400 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: Robert Sayre To: Danny Ayers Subject: Re: Media extensions Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd05071612396c6ebf3f@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <1f2ed5cd05071602566cd91799@mail.gmail.com> <42D94998.5050408@gmail.com> <20050716183157.GB6092@klangraum> <1f2ed5cd05071612396c6ebf3f@mail.gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6GJoFPf071051 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/16/05, Danny Ayers wrote: > How do you even *do* a podcast in Atom? (This is kind-of what I'm > trying to get at ;-) > What clients support podcasts in Atom? NetNewsWire supports it. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 16:02:02 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtsrK-0003qJ-Hm for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:02:02 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA28659 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:02:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GJqJR6071177; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:52:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6GJqJn8071176; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:52:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.204]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GJqICM071160 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:52:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id o1so550617nzf for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:52:13 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=eeCLjdMxEViu1qrGxQ3Cq6Dtc/dLY3S/l8tJag4dn2Kih81s4LK13MYq1avNs2Klq3VCoC1oUoN+dEdCf6CK2hncCv39yuifvBdZVfKlWUuCgnTQPx8cVgGd8i63NiBcQ5PXLH5ygaG9vOaq7/8yGk0gII+cUbOVCPxsvJxxMZQ= Received: by 10.36.81.19 with SMTP id e19mr114954nzb; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:52:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.47.13 with HTTP; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:52:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd05071612527b338818@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:52:13 +0200 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Robert Sayre Subject: Re: Evangelism, etc. Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <68fba5c5050716081633e7ba4b@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <1f2ed5cd0507160219778b3fea@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c5050716081633e7ba4b@mail.gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6GJqICM071171 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/16/05, Robert Sayre wrote: > On 7/16/05, Danny Ayers wrote: > > > Second - I just read 3 reviews of Atom (linked from Dave Winer's blog) > I found the criticism pathetic. Well, yes, but you're more familiar with the reality than most people that are likely to read that post. > As for Alex Bosworth's post, a commenter said "This post is rubbish > and way off base." I'm inclined to agree. Seems like a publicity > stunt. Quite possibly. But such things will influence the adoption of Atom. Put it this way - there are millions of RSS 1.0 feeds out there, and pretty much all tools support it. Yet even well-informed people are pointing to "RSS 2.0 and Atom Compared" as if there were no other alternative. I hardly think RSS 2.0 has gained the popularity it has through technical merit. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 16:04:22 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dtsta-000531-2m for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:04:22 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA28826 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:04:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GJrp6F071248; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:53:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6GJrpUs071247; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:53:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.204]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GJro5a071241 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:53:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id v1so549656nzb for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:53:45 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=VHaDFDR6K4oi0nUJStVHuVSY6954+CSoGA1fP9Muvd7tCIac5qhyaAClOwy8x8EjmwFzSCE2m0G2RKHqjHRkGRpDo/yHdICKbEJggLqqW+MQHHKEnhZjZSAV1H7iDludIT2vutuxmuyaKipe6+7vZS5qjL2ZAObE5pmlFBjAEvI= Received: by 10.36.119.13 with SMTP id r13mr2281103nzc; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:53:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.47.13 with HTTP; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:53:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0507161253490690dd@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:53:45 +0200 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: Walter Underwood Subject: Re: Evangelism, etc. Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <568C13EC16D807F6BF5C94CA@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <1f2ed5cd0507160219778b3fea@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c5050716081633e7ba4b@mail.gmail.com> <568C13EC16D807F6BF5C94CA@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6GJro5a071242 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/16/05, Walter Underwood wrote: > But there is a point buried under all that. What are the changes required > to support Atom? It looks complicated, but how hard is it? Here is a shot > at that information. Thanks Walter, this is good... > For publishers, you need to be precise about the content. There are fallbacks, > where if it is any sort of HTML, send it as HTML, and if it isn't, send it > as text. The XHTML and XML options are there for extra control. > > Also, add an ID. It is OK for this to be a URL to the article as long as > it doesn't change later. That is, the article can move to a different URL, > but keep the ID the same. > > Add a modified date. The software probably already has this, and you can > fall back to the file last-modified if you have to. But if there is a > better date available, use it. > > The ID and date are required because they allows Atom clients and aggregators > to "get it right" when tracking entries, either in the same feed or when the > same entry shows up in multiple feeds. > > Extending Atom is different from extending RSS, because there are more options. > The mechanical part of extensions are covered in the spec, to guarantee that > an Atom feed is still interoperable when it includes extensions. The political > part of extensions has two options: free innovation and standardization. Anyone > can write an extension to Atom and use it. Or, they can propose a standard to > the IETF (or another body). The standards process usually means more review, > more interoperability, and more delay in deploying it. Sometimes, the delay > is worth it, and we hope that is true for Atom. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 16:28:21 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DttGn-0004hY-Eu for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:28:21 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA29664 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:28:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GKKHge072565; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:20:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6GKKH28072564; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:20:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GKKGUQ072547 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:20:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i7so794370wra for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:20:11 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=kj96dD7K7tEwFV7PnXXUOeIBUwFJKxNAN6zTwTEif2jxChkQ70geW/pevyFcnyELBF8xXDSKkQNb6sHQWBc7JP8W3tUm1SY6mJIHskisgBj5UnCB4ykXd67y+CEsLuzqMn1tjS/q7gKHCG+5ZI1pYxGU9b6cGDZ7gRuzBxIyAXA= Received: by 10.54.28.40 with SMTP id b40mr210154wrb; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 7sm2028542wrl.2005.07.16.13.18.28; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42D96B90.7020807@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:18:24 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Danny Ayers , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Media extensions References: <1f2ed5cd05071602566cd91799@mail.gmail.com> <42D94998.5050408@gmail.com> <20050716183157.GB6092@klangraum> <1f2ed5cd05071612396c6ebf3f@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd05071612396c6ebf3f@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Danny Ayers wrote: > >Indeed it was. But for the extensions themselves, there is still >plenty of scope for poor design and near-(but not quite)-duplication >of work. I'm honestly not sure there's any group activity that could >help, but while there are still people in the room I think it's worth >considering. *If* a WG-like approach to media in Atom was the best >approach, now would be the time to do it. > > > Unfortunately, given the personalities involved with the podcasting arena I think attempting to get a formalized process going would cause more harm than good... regardless of whether it is the right thing to do. It's best to let things evolve organically for now. >Hmm, how podcasts are there? >How many are in Atom? >How do you even *do* a podcast in Atom? (This is kind-of what I'm >trying to get at ;-) >What clients support podcasts in Atom? > > > For what it's worth, I'm currently writing up an article for developerWorks that will discuss Atom podcasting (among other use cases) and will be offering a few examples on my personal blog in the not too distant future (probably next week) - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 16:37:44 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DttPs-0007tZ-PQ for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:37:44 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA00227 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:37:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GKSllC072920; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:28:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6GKSlgs072919; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:28:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vanadium.sabren.com (vanadium.sabren.com [67.19.173.84]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GKSkfP072913 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:28:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (cpe-066-057-027-065.nc.res.rr.com [66.57.27.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by vanadium.sabren.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6GKYD9O005023; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:34:17 -0400 Message-ID: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:28:41 -0400 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050404) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Bray CC: atom-syntax WG Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > > I got an email last night from a well known syndication implementor > pointing out an obvious bug in my Atom feed. The feed's valid, but the > stuff in was full of relative URIs which were broken because > I'd borked the xml:base. So I went through the code and got the > xml:base right and ruthlessly pruned all the pointers. The feed looks > a little weird and it's giving the (pre-alpha) validator a heartburn, > but I sort of think it's right. I also think it's good practice. > Check it out: > > xml:base='http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/' > xml:lang='en-us'> > ongoing > > > rsslogo.jpg > /favicon.ico I agree that relative URIs are a good practice. I didn't realize that "path-empty" was a valid URI-reference. Looks like another test case to write. ;-) - - - While it clearly shouldn't be the default behavior, longer term (i.e., sometime well after basic Atom 1.0 support is more complete), how much value do you think that there would be value in an option to attempt to verify all potentially dereferencable URIs resolve to accessible resources? - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 16:48:04 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DttZr-0002Dk-Vs for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:48:04 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA00845 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:48:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GKddbu073608; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:39:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6GKddpn073607; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:39:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vanadium.sabren.com (vanadium.sabren.com [67.19.173.84]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GKdc9l073601 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:39:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (cpe-066-057-027-065.nc.res.rr.com [66.57.27.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by vanadium.sabren.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6GKj7Vg006666; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:45:08 -0400 Message-ID: <42D97088.6020401@intertwingly.net> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:39:36 -0400 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050404) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Danny Ayers CC: atom-syntax@imc.org, rss-media@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Media extensions References: <1f2ed5cd05071602566cd91799@mail.gmail.com> <42D94998.5050408@gmail.com> <20050716183157.GB6092@klangraum> <1f2ed5cd05071612396c6ebf3f@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd05071612396c6ebf3f@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Danny Ayers wrote: > On 7/16/05, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > >>* James M Snell [2005-07-16 20:05]: >> >>>If the community can drive a viable solution without the >>>overhead of a formalized standardization process, it will work >>>out best for everyone and the anti-formal-standards crowd will >>>have far less to complain about or will at least be able to >>>devote more time to bashing atom ;-) > > Yahoo!'s approach did seem to work very well without any formal > process, effectively just a mailing list and editor. But then Apple > came along... ... at which point, I would think that it should be painfully obvious to all that that which "did seem to work very well without any formal process", isn't going to work out very well long term. While I don't believe that *every* extension needs to the "overhead" of a formalized standardization process, I do believe that there is enough interest in *this* extension that this particular effort would benefit from a wider set of participants. Question: can anybody here quantify the "overhead" of the IETF standardization process? While I certainly would label some of the last few weeks "overhead", everything else I attribute to the impact of allowing and enabling a wider set of participation. Yes, developing specs up to Atom 0.3 was much easier when Mark, Joe, I, and few others could just listen to feedback on mailing lists, blogs, and wikis, and do what we thought was best. But Atom 1.0 is much better. Much. My $0.02. - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 16:53:18 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dttew-0004WT-BC for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:53:18 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA01068 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:53:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GFw5uw056757; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 08:58:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6GFw5iV056756; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 08:58:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [205.237.194.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GFw400056739 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 08:58:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.3] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90A8AA32F9 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:58:01 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <3E6C7917-B853-4DCF-A33E-7B7EDC9677B5@mnot.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Feed History -02 Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 08:57:50 -0700 To: Atom WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Feed History draft has been updated to -02; http://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nottingham-atompub-feed- history-02.txt The most noticeable change in this version is the inclusion of a namespace URI, to allow implementation. I don't intend to update it for a while, so as to gather implementation feedback. Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 16:53:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dttex-0004Y0-Eu for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:53:19 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA01071 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:53:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GFp59n056328; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 08:51:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6GFp5Cm056327; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 08:51:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6GFp3Ob056315 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 08:51:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 16 Jul 2005 15:50:57 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-247-129.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.247.129] by mail.gmx.net (mp030) with SMTP; 16 Jul 2005 17:50:57 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 17:55:49 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: FormatTests Message-ID: <20050716155549.GA5388@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <42D2D230.8080001@intertwingly.net> <45B655D5-EEB0-404D-9E47-F0E2AB29F86E@mac.com> <42D83694.1050403@intertwingly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id QAA01071 * Graham [2005-07-16 12:40]: > Are you advocating changing permanent identifiers? Bad Sam. >=20 > ID canonicalization was a bloody stupid idea. Eeep. Even though I don=E2=80=99t think canonicalization was a stupid idea, more careful thought was and is probably necessary about the impact it has on things like these. I suppose the message you got was http://www.feedvalidator.org/docs/warning/ObscureEncoding.html ? That would indeed be inappropriate, though a warning should be given. This needs a warning that strongly cautions against changing the existing IDs =E2=80=93 potentially problematic as they may be =E2=80=93, but advises that the generation of new IDs should be adjusted. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 16:53:23 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dttf0-0004ZP-5j for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:53:23 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA01106 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:53:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GGvfPc060157; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 09:57:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6GGvfF2060156; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 09:57:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.147.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GGvenp060149 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 09:57:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C17C6AA for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 09:57:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (spike.verity.com [192.168.4.22]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j6GGvSkv025700 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 09:57:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 09:57:35 -0700 From: Walter Underwood To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Evangelism, etc. Message-ID: <568C13EC16D807F6BF5C94CA@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <68fba5c5050716081633e7ba4b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f2ed5cd0507160219778b3fea@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c5050716081633e7ba4b@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Mac OS X) X-Face: 7Vqnb4fOVKsO)3JuUXKxR\M]:e"u'eG`Zue*.((7i7%P%rvZgS[j~95@C-s3i (s!e;OX`'Pngn5lq*Td}#,"5!^jm(65.";[GPtD^c(/1TtMe&wYO;_}\!}fRkxs%q#Jk 5E^BlXwR+8}qOwy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On July 16, 2005 11:16:44 AM -0400 Robert Sayre wrote: > I found the criticism pathetic. A little lame, at least. You can't add precision and interoperability with innovation and extension. But there is a point buried under all that. What are the changes required to support Atom? It looks complicated, but how hard is it? Here is a shot at that information. For publishers, you need to be precise about the content. There are fallbacks, where if it is any sort of HTML, send it as HTML, and if it isn't, send it as text. The XHTML and XML options are there for extra control. Also, add an ID. It is OK for this to be a URL to the article as long as it doesn't change later. That is, the article can move to a different URL, but keep the ID the same. Add a modified date. The software probably already has this, and you can fall back to the file last-modified if you have to. But if there is a better date available, use it. The ID and date are required because they allows Atom clients and aggregators to "get it right" when tracking entries, either in the same feed or when the same entry shows up in multiple feeds. Extending Atom is different from extending RSS, because there are more options. The mechanical part of extensions are covered in the spec, to guarantee that an Atom feed is still interoperable when it includes extensions. The political part of extensions has two options: free innovation and standardization. Anyone can write an extension to Atom and use it. Or, they can propose a standard to the IETF (or another body). The standards process usually means more review, more interoperability, and more delay in deploying it. Sometimes, the delay is worth it, and we hope that is true for Atom. wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect, Verity From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 17:04:26 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dttph-0000sa-3F for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 17:04:26 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA01738 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 17:04:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GKqqXe074181; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:52:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6GKqqhl074180; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:52:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.198]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GKqpHD074172 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:52:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id c51so152469rne for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:52:51 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=APi8Ozl3bkiqAyAnd+Pt6yOiXaFrqmt7yMbA0Uhjzg6vRh/Gm9Tj0mnYns6BO8sAl4xpt1Up9caay0u3CMLAQn4IknOYEVbrtthzbOPM4oOE7FabpJkiFxTva9igzEaPgzQT6QDwL3fDCKa9kC8pGeabOBrjwX4ytOpFaWbGFdo= Received: by 10.39.3.37 with SMTP id f37mr639683rni; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:52:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id a29sm1760224rng.2005.07.16.13.52.50; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:52:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42D9739E.4070003@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:52:46 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sam Ruby CC: Danny Ayers , atom-syntax@imc.org, rss-media@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Media extensions References: <1f2ed5cd05071602566cd91799@mail.gmail.com> <42D94998.5050408@gmail.com> <20050716183157.GB6092@klangraum> <1f2ed5cd05071612396c6ebf3f@mail.gmail.com> <42D97088.6020401@intertwingly.net> In-Reply-To: <42D97088.6020401@intertwingly.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sam Ruby wrote: > > Danny Ayers wrote: > >> Yahoo!'s approach did seem to work very well without any formal >> process, effectively just a mailing list and editor. But then Apple >> came along... > > > ... at which point, I would think that it should be painfully obvious > to all that that which "did seem to work very well without any formal > process", isn't going to work out very well long term. > > While I don't believe that *every* extension needs to the "overhead" > of a formalized standardization process, I do believe that there is > enough interest in *this* extension that this particular effort would > benefit from a wider set of participants. > > Question: can anybody here quantify the "overhead" of the IETF > standardization process? While I certainly would label some of the > last few weeks "overhead", everything else I attribute to the impact > of allowing and enabling a wider set of participation. > > Yes, developing specs up to Atom 0.3 was much easier when Mark, Joe, > I, and few others could just listen to feedback on mailing lists, > blogs, and wikis, and do what we thought was best. > > But Atom 1.0 is much better. Much. > > My $0.02. > > - Sam Ruby > Agree on all counts. I think that a formal standard for this application case would be ideal; would result in a much better product; and wouldn't be as difficult or take as long as many standards-critics would make folks believe. I'm just not convinced that given the current state of things that it would be a successful endeavor. I'd be happy to be proven wrong. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 17:07:06 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DttsE-0001Ek-Qv for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 17:07:06 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA01811 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 17:07:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GL0Crh074593; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:00:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6GL0CJX074592; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:00:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6GL0A0s074567 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:00:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 16 Jul 2005 21:00:04 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-247-129.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.247.129] by mail.gmx.net (mp025) with SMTP; 16 Jul 2005 23:00:04 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:05:02 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Media extensions Message-ID: <20050716210502.GA7358@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <1f2ed5cd05071602566cd91799@mail.gmail.com> <42D94998.5050408@gmail.com> <20050716183157.GB6092@klangraum> <1f2ed5cd05071612396c6ebf3f@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c505071612499843b96@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <68fba5c505071612499843b96@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id RAA01811 * Robert Sayre [2005-07-16 22:00]: > On 7/16/05, Danny Ayers wrote: > > How do you even *do* a podcast in Atom? (This is kind-of what > > I'm trying to get at ;-) What clients support podcasts in > > Atom? >=20 > NetNewsWire supports it. So does Liferea. And while most popular podcasts are probably RSS 2.0, but I would be surprised if a number of podcasts aren=E2=80=99t provided in both formats. I don=E2=80=99t know much about that, though, as I haven=E2=80=99= t had much interest in the phenomenon itself. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 17:09:40 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dttum-0002TS-PY for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 17:09:40 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA01997 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 17:09:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GL1vjY074712; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:01:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6GL1vke074711; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:01:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GL1ugN074705 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:01:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GL1uvU028808 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 15:01:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fe8 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IJQ000EVNR73F@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 15:01:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.24] ([216.113.202.7]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IJQ00JKHNR6PY@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 15:01:55 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:01:55 -0700 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies In-reply-to: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> To: Sam Ruby Cc: atom-syntax WG Message-id: <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Jul 16, 2005, at 1:28 PM, Sam Ruby wrote: > I didn't realize that "path-empty" was a valid URI-reference. Yeah, it means "here". > While it clearly shouldn't be the default behavior, longer term > (i.e., sometime well after basic Atom 1.0 support is more > complete), how much value do you think that there would be value in > an option to attempt to verify all potentially dereferencable URIs > resolve to accessible resources? I was actually going to propose that very thing. I think it would be highly useful. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 19:11:54 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dtvp1-0002nb-Ao for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 19:11:54 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA07839 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 19:11:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GMwOe5084385; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 15:58:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6GMwOU9084384; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 15:58:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GMwN7h084377 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 15:58:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6GMwNvU028963 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:58:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IJQ000L0T5A3F@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:58:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.24] ([216.113.202.7]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IJQ00I3VT59CQ@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:58:22 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 15:58:20 -0700 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies In-reply-to: To: Tim Bray Cc: atom-syntax WG Message-id: <5F0F757C-B813-4088-84C6-1025D8E20FD4@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Jul 16, 2005, at 11:20 AM, Tim Bray wrote: > I got an email last night from a well known syndication implementor > pointing out an obvious bug in my Atom feed. The feed's valid, but > the stuff in was full of relative URIs which were broken > because I'd borked the xml:base. So I went through the code and > got the xml:base right and ruthlessly pruned all the pointers. Hey hey hey, it turns out xml:base is supposed to stack. Thus..... ongoing ... Atom 1.0 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 21:09:36 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dtxey-0001RC-AD for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:09:36 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA11791 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:09:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6H10Fq9091133; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:00:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6H10F58091132; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:00:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.203]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6H10E85091124 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:00:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i36so839752wra for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:00:09 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=XvAiRmYP4WB0sglsX9UkvUqnF7k2hv48MFBDLyZQDLhI7gbtZGiBDlGstuoelLVrwifCSXn+IMm6pB+tFgdqGSS7A49q89Iq6rrUFEYsSddRmzI6ZhhoPvUxkDkDfYqUdDJhhf3C3Uf0oaeQVvKymNWIxm5K72drLfEKnwukYTk= Received: by 10.54.141.20 with SMTP id o20mr1571570wrd; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 17:58:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.71.13 with HTTP; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 17:58:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c505071617585055129d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:58:56 -0400 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: Robert Sayre To: Sam Ruby Subject: Re: Media extensions Cc: Danny Ayers , atom-syntax@imc.org, rss-media@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <42D97088.6020401@intertwingly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <1f2ed5cd05071602566cd91799@mail.gmail.com> <42D94998.5050408@gmail.com> <20050716183157.GB6092@klangraum> <1f2ed5cd05071612396c6ebf3f@mail.gmail.com> <42D97088.6020401@intertwingly.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6H10E85091127 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/16/05, Sam Ruby wrote: > > Question: can anybody here quantify the "overhead" of the IETF > standardization process? While I certainly would label some of the last > few weeks "overhead", everything else I attribute to the impact of > allowing and enabling a wider set of participation. I hesitate to put a number on it, but our experience included a ghastly amount of debate on field names. If I were setting up a WG for something like Media RSS, I would probably rule debate on field names out of order (realizing that people have to pick something to propose a *new* feature), and leave field names up to the editors until WG last call. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 21:35:58 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dty4U-0001Za-7a for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:35:58 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA12879 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:35:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6H1VLqh093051; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:31:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6H1VLCi093050; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:31:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail3.panix.com (mail3.panix.com [166.84.1.74]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6H1VKZh093043 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:31:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lgonze@panix.com) Received: from mailspool3.panix.com (mailspool3.panix.com [166.84.1.78]) by mail3.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C2F113AE53; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:31:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.0.122] (cpe-204-210-122-110.hawaii.res.rr.com [204.210.122.110]) by mailspool3.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E05BA27C763; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:31:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42D9B4E4.6020605@panix.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 15:31:16 -1000 From: Lucas Gonze Reply-To: lucas@gonze.com User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rss-media@yahoogroups.com CC: Sam Ruby , Danny Ayers , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: [rss-media] Re: Media extensions References: <1f2ed5cd05071602566cd91799@mail.gmail.com> <42D94998.5050408@gmail.com> <20050716183157.GB6092@klangraum> <1f2ed5cd05071612396c6ebf3f@mail.gmail.com> <42D97088.6020401@intertwingly.net> <68fba5c505071617585055129d@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <68fba5c505071617585055129d@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit About a formal standards process, as far as I can tell the only two Bigs involved right now are Apple and Yahoo. Is there anybody else? We can assume that Y! would be pretty friendly. It's not a given that they would participate, but it's plausible. Apple, though, is a different story. Is there any reason to think that they would take it seriously? From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 21:43:38 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtyBu-0003yd-NB for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:43:38 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA13388 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:43:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6H1b8fB093365; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:37:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6H1b8NX093364; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:37:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.192]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6H1b7Vj093344 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:37:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 4so579075nzn for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:37:01 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=cZHKrOZa5A4rqw83sitrI6EvFWvo4wLop2XPb/S9Ky3WsMSjwWARxhu5YxtKpGjxaCQz6JsBOAUX1g3ELLS6aMlqr6Jh2MSNNhzKMMPKpbsKYXKYmKOVRF9UMBJc0zLPqW/gnLifZQK7ygCEfMhD0iSthymrnqLuXpSIclQllHU= Received: by 10.36.19.13 with SMTP id 13mr2833688nzs; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:37:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 23sm4416054nzn.2005.07.16.18.37.01; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:37:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42D9B639.9060309@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:36:57 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Comments link relation References: <42f1be69.281132062@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <42efba1d.280032218@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI... I've deployed a working prototype of the comments link relation extension on my personal weblog. http://www.snellspace.com/wp/wp-atom1.php http://www.snellspace.com/wp/wp-commentsatom1.php The @rel attributes use the values: http://www.snellspace.com/atom/extensions/proposed/comments http://www.snellspace.com/atom/extensions/proposed/in-reply-to comments is usable on the feed and entry level. Entry level comment links indicate a comments feed that is specific to that individual entry. The @href of the comments is the URI of an atom feed. in-reply-to is usable on the feed and entry level. in-reply-to on the feed level indicates that all of the entries in the feed are replies to the same entry. A feed or entry may have multiple in-reply-to links. The @href attribute of the in-reply-to link is the atom:id of the original entry. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 23:08:44 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtzWF-00072L-Qf for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:08:44 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA16911 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:08:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6H33s9t000357; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:03:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6H33s2f000356; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:03:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6H33r3c000350 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:03:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from karl@w3.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D37044F159 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:03:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Foaf: http://www.la-grange.net/karl-foaf.xrdf In-Reply-To: <42D94998.5050408@gmail.com> References: <1f2ed5cd05071602566cd91799@mail.gmail.com> <42D94998.5050408@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: From: Karl Dubost Subject: Re: Media extensions Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:04:52 -0400 To: "Atom Syntax'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6H33s3c000351 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id XAA16911 Le 16 juil. 2005, =E0 13:53, James M Snell a =E9crit : > Let's see if we can avoid the IETF process for now and encourage Yahoo=20 > and Apple to get together with the community to work on some a common=20 > approach, get some implementations out there to evolve it a bit, then=20 > evaluate later whether or not IETF standardization makes sense. FYI: Comparing Media RSS formats http://www.w3.org/2005/07/media-and-rss You can send comments, suggestions to improve the table. --=20 Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 23:38:46 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtzzK-00087X-6k for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:38:46 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA17864 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:38:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6H3QF7t002555; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:26:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6H3QF6p002554; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:26:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6H3QDvl002538 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:26:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 17 Jul 2005 03:26:07 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-247-129.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.247.129] by mail.gmx.net (mp004) with SMTP; 17 Jul 2005 05:26:07 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 05:31:05 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: rss-media@yahoogroups.com, atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: [rss-media] Re: Media extensions Message-ID: <20050717033105.GA9610@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: rss-media@yahoogroups.com, atom-syntax@imc.org References: <1f2ed5cd05071602566cd91799@mail.gmail.com> <42D94998.5050408@gmail.com> <20050716183157.GB6092@klangraum> <1f2ed5cd05071612396c6ebf3f@mail.gmail.com> <42D97088.6020401@intertwingly.net> <68fba5c505071617585055129d@mail.gmail.com> <42D9B4E4.6020605@panix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42D9B4E4.6020605@panix.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id XAA17864 * Lucas Gonze [2005-07-17 03:40]: > Apple, though, is a different story. Is there any reason to > think that they would take it seriously? Mostly this: http://tantek.com/log/2005/07.html#d10t0130 I don=E2=80=99t know if there=E2=80=99s been any other motion yet. Apple,= the company, apparently aren=E2=80=99t likely to officially bless any such effort, instead considering it the team=E2=80=99s responsibility to figure things out, much like they seem to be doing with Safari and its standards compliance. The cultures at the two companies obviously differ. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 23:44:00 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Du04N-0001ED-P1 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:44:00 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA17977 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:43:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6H3bhB7003208; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:37:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6H3bhkn003207; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:37:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6H3bfX6003195 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:37:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 17 Jul 2005 03:37:35 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-241-23.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.241.23] by mail.gmx.net (mp003) with SMTP; 17 Jul 2005 05:37:35 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 05:42:29 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: More while we're waiting discussion Message-ID: <20050717034229.GB9610@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <20050713062542.GC13244@klangraum> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id XAA17977 * Eric Scheid [2005-07-13 17:35]: > Quick poll: how many feed readers let the user read the current > feed document without first requiring them to subscribe. That > is, present the content, along with a button "subscribe to > future updates". I=E2=80=99ve not seen any dedicated feed readers that do that. The browsers which know render feeds in a meaningful fashion by themselves (Safari, Firefox+extension) do allow that. Unsurprising, really, as feeds have yet to emerge into a lot of areas outside weblogs or similarly structured content outlets. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 16 23:55:34 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Du0Fa-0004a0-A2 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:55:34 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA18519 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:55:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6H3o4uL003844; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:50:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6H3o4tD003843; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:50:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6H3o3bJ003833 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:50:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 17 Jul 2005 03:49:57 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-241-23.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.241.23] by mail.gmx.net (mp007) with SMTP; 17 Jul 2005 05:49:57 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 05:54:54 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-00.txt Message-ID: <20050717035454.GA10022@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id XAA18519 * Eric Scheid [2005-06-30 05:20]: > On 30/6/05 11:54 AM, "Antone Roundy" wrote: > > I don't quite get what the "hub feed" would look like. Could > > you show us some XML? >=20 > I think something like this: >=20 > > ... > archives hub for x > type=3D"application/atom+xml" > rel=3D"prev" /> > type=3D"application/atom+xml" > rel=3D"prev" /> > type=3D"application/atom+xml" > rel=3D"prev" /> > type=3D"application/atom+xml" > rel=3D"prev" /> > > Exactly. > ... although ... now that I've typed that out ... the semantics > of "prev" are borked. Indeed. > So maybe something more like this would make better sense >=20 > > ... > > > type=3D"application/atom+xml"/> > Archive for 2005/05 > 27 posts > > I like! > also, how can RFC3229+feed provide subsets where one end isn't > tied to the most recent entry? It can=E2=80=99t. Is there a need for that beyond a minor overhead of redundancy? Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 17 00:16:56 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Du0aC-0003ek-Ah for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 00:16:56 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA19342 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 00:16:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6H49duh004941; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:09:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6H49dKJ004940; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:09:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (imap.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6H49coR004928 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:09:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 17 Jul 2005 04:09:32 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-241-23.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.241.23] by mail.gmx.net (mp031) with SMTP; 17 Jul 2005 06:09:32 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 06:14:30 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: More while we're waiting discussion Message-ID: <20050717041430.GB10022@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <20050713071733.GF13244@klangraum> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id AAA19342 * Eric Scheid [2005-07-13 17:35]: > could we have @href and then also @idref ... then when we mean > to provide a dereferenceable uri we can put it in @href, and > when we want to provide an ID reference we can put it in > @idref. We can even put both into a link, and if the @href > returns a 404 or otherwise indicate it is not the thing being > sought, then we could try querying an ID resolver to find the > new location. It would make more sense to me to say that a particular type of @rel value always expects a dereferencable URI or never expects on. =E2=80=9Cin-reply-to=E2=80=9D would be in the latter category. I can see the value in having both for cases where the relationship may easily be either case. Although I don=E2=80=99t like the idea of both attributes being present at once; a Link Construct should refer to one resource, IMHO, and building some kind of fallback mechanism into it rubs me the wrong way for reasons I can=E2=80=99t quite verbalize yet. In which case you could add another attribute to cover this. Or you could decompose it into two relationship types, both of which mean the exact same, but of which one expects a dereferncable URI and the other expects an abstract one. So as far as I can tell, if we say that @href may contain any URI, and the semantics of that URI are defined by the value of @rel, this allows any scenario which @idref would, except for providing that fallback mechanism. So, I don=E2=80=99t know=E2=80=A6 I can see merit in @idref, though I lea= n against it. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 17 00:34:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Du0qv-0000bW-VX for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 00:34:10 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA19716 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 00:34:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6H4REJH005732; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:27:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6H4RECj005731; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:27:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.196]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6H4RDBK005724 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:27:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id n1so608325nzf for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:27:08 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=HdsY3MLctfflnAFOEhOjZBLLvdGGJHYs90P62RufhNvPZOYyz0wW3tfqqfqE+JZqB5/rU/qIZreBcNxhMCt8GoVHyPIvMuoGa14vZ1vUJlY+FG1KLIlSYD7xDCkdfNBS8i43+ODiod6f6dkl4WSBSybBh15y4W4b/xQLwX/aLAc= Received: by 10.36.119.13 with SMTP id r13mr2495043nzc; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:27:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 15sm4990951nzo.2005.07.16.21.27.07; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:27:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42D9DE17.9050300@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:27:03 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "A. Pagaltzis" CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: More while we're waiting discussion References: <20050713071733.GF13244@klangraum> <20050717041430.GB10022@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20050717041430.GB10022@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id AAA19716 A. Pagaltzis wrote: >* Eric Scheid [2005-07-13 17:35]: > =20 > >>could we have @href and then also @idref ... then when we mean >>to provide a dereferenceable uri we can put it in @href, and >>when we want to provide an ID reference we can put it in >>@idref. We can even put both into a link, and if the @href >>returns a 404 or otherwise indicate it is not the thing being >>sought, then we could try querying an ID resolver to find the >>new location. >> =20 >> > >It would make more sense to me to say that a particular type of >@rel value always expects a dereferencable URI or never expects >on. =E2=80=9Cin-reply-to=E2=80=9D would be in the latter category. > > =20 > +1. Atom 1.0 does not require link href to be dereferencable. It=20 should fall on the definition of the @rel attribute as to whether or not=20 href can actually be dereferenced. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 17 01:12:04 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Du1Rb-0004K3-2E for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 01:12:04 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA20821 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 01:12:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6H56PA9010098; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 22:06:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6H56PMn010097; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 22:06:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6H56Ok7010056 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 22:06:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id l1so602911nzf for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 22:06:15 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=U0ajuUSrO5pzS7uQxak9ALO2GWQ82WTZhm04lUToVEpp2mu8nDnhcWyyMck0xEZ3mhuICPxhzcpaM1wr7hvSl2Qs80rQ+JqvGbGue0Hq952hAWi+JrdaHafWEtAmgspkWPNEqvtiBpxhBqNVACjGHukstcSpO7JU5f80XtsfKok= Received: by 10.36.227.64 with SMTP id z64mr2897206nzg; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 22:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 36sm4539042nza.2005.07.16.22.06.15; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 22:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42D9E742.3010902@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 22:06:10 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "A. Pagaltzis" CC: Atom Syntax Subject: License extension (was Re: More while we're waiting discussion) References: <42D2D230.8080001@intertwingly.net> <42D300F6.8090206@gmail.com> <721894579.20050713073518@djpowell.net> <20050713071319.GE13244@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20050713071319.GE13244@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A significant part of my brain is screaming at me that the most logical way to associate a license with an entry/feed is to use a link element. After all, we are linking the entry/feed with an external resource (the license) that is identifiable via URI. For instance, if I ommitted the various permits and requires elements, the following would look very natural and straight forward: ... It seems that it's only when I introduce the subelements to link that things start to appear ugly. ... At the same time, it is entirely possible for us to make the above link compatible with the existing RDF creative commons license by using: The bottom line to this is that it is possible for us to create a link-based license attachment for Atom that is backwards compatible with the RDF-based Creative Commons module for RSS 1.0. Now, I will say that using a specific license element looks nicer (e.g. , etc) but the use of link just seems far too logical for it not to be used in this way. I've implemented a prototype of this in my personal blogs Atom 1.0 feed. Unfortunately the Feed Validator does not yet recognize extension attributes and elements in link elements as being valid. http://www.snellspace.com/wp/wp-atom1.php - James A. Pagaltzis wrote: >* David Powell [2005-07-13 08:45]: > > >>Because the content of atom:link is undefined, there is a risk >>that some implementations, particularly Atom server >>implementations accepting entries from a publishing client, >>might just drop the contents of the element. >> >> > >We had a discussion recently about this very aspect of the spec, >which concluded that there is no reason that extension elements >would be disallowed inside atom:link. So per the spec, consumers >should expect that extension elements may appear inside >atom:link. > >I do agree that a Simple Extension Element (or several) would be >the logical choice for this particular use case, as they offer >defined semantics for attaching metadata directly to an entry. > >Regards, > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 17 02:25:30 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Du2af-0003Kk-VA for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 02:25:30 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA14194 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 02:25:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6H6Gqu2040423; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:16:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6H6Gq3Y040422; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:16:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.11]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6H6GoKY040393 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:16:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.2] (HELO [10.0.1.2]) by ironclad.net.au (Stalker SMTP Server 1.7) with ESMTP id S.0000645902 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:16:51 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 15:33:55 +1000 Subject: Re: More while we're waiting discussion From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <42D9DE17.9050300@gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6H6GqKY040416 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id CAA14194 On 17/7/05 2:27 PM, "James M Snell" wrote: >> It would make more sense to me to say that a particular type of >> @rel value always expects a dereferencable URI or never expects >> on. =B3in-reply-to=B2 would be in the latter category. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 > +1. Atom 1.0 does not require link href to be dereferencable. It > should fall on the definition of the @rel attribute as to whether or no= t > href can actually be dereferenced. +1 despite this in the spec: "The value of "rel" describes the meaning of the link, but does not impose any behavioral requirements on implementations" e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 17 04:41:42 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Du4iU-00063v-B5 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 04:41:42 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA20404 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 04:41:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6H8QwdA090131; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 01:26:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6H8Qw7m090130; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 01:26:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6H8Qv1h090080 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 01:26:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 17 Jul 2005 08:26:50 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-241-23.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.241.23] by mail.gmx.net (mp016) with SMTP; 17 Jul 2005 10:26:50 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:31:41 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: More while we're waiting discussion Message-ID: <20050717083141.GA15121@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <20050713071733.GF13244@klangraum> <20050717041430.GB10022@klangraum> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050717041430.GB10022@klangraum> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id EAA20404 Ugh, I was as clear as mud. * A. Pagaltzis [2005-07-17 06:20]: > It would make more sense to me to say that a particular type of > @rel value always expects a dereferencable URI or never expects > on. =E2=80=9Cin-reply-to=E2=80=9D would be in the latter category. >=20 > I can see the value in having both for cases where the ^^^^^^^^^^^ ie defining @idref and @href > relationship may easily be either case. Although I don=E2=80=99t like > the idea of both attributes being present at once; a Link > Construct should refer to one resource, IMHO, and building some > kind of fallback mechanism into it rubs me the wrong way for > reasons I can=E2=80=99t quite verbalize yet. >=20 > In which case you could add another attribute to cover this. =20 Ie rather than @idref, a boolean attribute that says whether @href is dereferecable or not. > Or you could decompose it into two relationship types, both of ^^ referring to this boolean attribute > which mean the exact same, but of which one expects a > dereferncable URI and the other expects an abstract one. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 17 08:50:00 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Du8am-0004CW-0z for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:50:00 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA01832 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:49:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HCg3NY079979; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 05:42:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6HCg3Xu079978; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 05:42:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail06.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail06.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.22]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6HCg10S079931 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 05:42:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 69214 messnum 2899216 invoked from network[83.70.29.246/83-70-29-246.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 17 Jul 2005 12:41:55 -0000 Received: from 83-70-29-246.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (83.70.29.246) by mail06.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 69214) with SMTP; 17 Jul 2005 12:41:55 -0000 Message-ID: <42DA520B.2020309@dehora.net> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 13:41:47 +0100 From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org CC: rss-media@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Media extensions References: <1f2ed5cd05071602566cd91799@mail.gmail.com> <42D94998.5050408@gmail.com> <20050716183157.GB6092@klangraum> <1f2ed5cd05071612396c6ebf3f@mail.gmail.com> <42D97088.6020401@intertwingly.net> In-Reply-To: <42D97088.6020401@intertwingly.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.92.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Question: can anybody here quantify the "overhead" of the IETF > standardization process? 1. No decisions in 10 minutes or less or the next one is free. Those with formal roles (Chairs et al) can and do make tough sounding utterances, but they don't count for much. 2. People turn up who are not in good standing with the body of work past, issues are thusly reopened. I could imagine this being dealt with via a firmer charter. 3. Roadblocking (lying down in the road). We lost weeks if not months this year on that alone. Somebody is welcome to make an counter-argument that this is superior to forking. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 17 10:16:56 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Du9wu-0003zJ-JC for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:16:56 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA06315 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:16:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HE8a1j005704; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:08:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6HE8aRD005703; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:08:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpgateway.itweb.no ([213.236.233.197]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HE8Zw6005689 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:08:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from nrklt47836.felles.ds.nrk.no (ti541210a080-1730.bb.online.no [80.213.158.194]) by smtpgateway.itweb.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 959847C2E8 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:50:30 +0200 (CEST) To: "atom-syntax WG" Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies References: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> Message-ID: From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:06:18 +0200 In-Reply-To: <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Opera M2/8.01 (Win32, build 7642) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id KAA06315 On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:01:55 +0200, Tim Bray wrote: >> While it clearly shouldn't be the default behavior, longer term (i.e.,= =20 >> sometime well after basic Atom 1.0 support is more complete), how much= =20 >> value do you think that there would be value in an option to attempt t= o =20 >> verify all potentially dereferencable URIs resolve to accessible =20 >> resources? > > I was actually going to propose that very thing. I think it would be =20 > highly useful. Indeed it would! +1. --=20 Asbj=F8rn Ulsberg =ABHe's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away=BB From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 17 10:41:28 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuAKe-0001zE-Jt for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:41:28 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA07792 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:41:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HEbBOE007176; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:37:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6HEbB1q007175; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:37:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-vbr14.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr14.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HEbAoh007169 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:37:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sjoerd@w3future.com) Received: from [10.0.0.2] (w3future.xs4all.nl [213.84.155.207]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp-vbr14.xs4all.nl (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j6HEb3Q6033409; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:37:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from sjoerd@w3future.com) Message-ID: <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:36:44 +0200 From: Sjoerd Visscher User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Bray CC: Sam Ruby , atom-syntax WG Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies References: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> In-Reply-To: <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > > On Jul 16, 2005, at 1:28 PM, Sam Ruby wrote: > >> I didn't realize that "path-empty" was a valid URI-reference. > > > Yeah, it means "here". And that's why you can't use it as a reference to your site. To quote from RFC 3986: When a URI reference refers to a URI that is, aside from its fragment component (if any), identical to the base URI (Section 5.1), that reference is called a "same-document" reference. The most frequent examples of same-document references are relative references that are empty or include only the number sign ("#") separator followed by a fragment identifier. When a same-document reference is dereferenced for a retrieval action, the target of that reference is defined to be within the same entity (representation, document, or message) as the reference; therefore, a dereference should not result in a new retrieval action. So, links to the atom file (as currently in memory), not your site. -- Sjoerd Visscher http://w3future.com/weblog/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 17 10:53:40 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuAWS-00051e-9m for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:53:40 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA08087 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:53:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HEk3Wc007660; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:46:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6HEk3Ts007659; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:46:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HEk2Pv007650 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:46:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6HEjTCR009654; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 15:45:34 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: References: <42D2D230.8080001@intertwingly.net> <45B655D5-EEB0-404D-9E47-F0E2AB29F86E@mac.com> <42D83694.1050403@intertwingly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Sam Ruby Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Graham Subject: Re: FormatTests Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 15:45:26 +0100 To: Atom Syntax X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 16 Jul 2005, at 11:27 am, Graham wrote: > Also: > "Solution: Use the canonical form, given in the warning message." It now says: "All newly issued ids should be in canonical form. Use the canonical form given in the warning message for guidance." (http://feedvalidator.org/docs/warning/NonCanonicalURI.html) While an improvement, it needs to say that old ids cannot be corrected and the old thing you can is prevent it happening in future. It might therefore be simpler to not flag this problem at all. Now do you see why canonical ids are stupid and irrelevant? Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 17 11:06:51 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuAjC-000070-Qz for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:06:51 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA08578 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:06:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HEwh6N008439; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:58:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6HEwglU008438; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:58:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-vbr11.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr11.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.31]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HEwfiJ008430 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:58:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sjoerd@w3future.com) Received: from [10.0.0.2] (w3future.xs4all.nl [213.84.155.207]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp-vbr11.xs4all.nl (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j6HEwbPw053171; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:58:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from sjoerd@w3future.com) Message-ID: <42DA720A.8020906@w3future.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:58:18 +0200 From: Sjoerd Visscher User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sjoerd Visscher CC: Tim Bray , Sam Ruby , atom-syntax WG Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies References: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> In-Reply-To: <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sjoerd Visscher wrote: > Tim Bray wrote: >> On Jul 16, 2005, at 1:28 PM, Sam Ruby wrote: >>> I didn't realize that "path-empty" was a valid URI-reference. >> Yeah, it means "here". > And that's why you can't use it as a reference to your site. > > To quote from RFC 3986: > > When a URI reference refers to a URI that is, aside from its fragment > component (if any), identical to the base URI (Section 5.1), that > reference is called a "same-document" reference. The most frequent > examples of same-document references are relative references that are > empty or include only the number sign ("#") separator followed by a > fragment identifier. > > When a same-document reference is dereferenced for a retrieval > action, the target of that reference is defined to be within the same > entity (representation, document, or message) as the reference; > therefore, a dereference should not result in a new retrieval action. > > So, links to the atom file (as currently in memory), > not your site. Actually, after thinking about it some more, even would *not* really be a link to your site, because it is still identical to the base URI. So you can't use http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/ as your base URI. And actually it makes much more sense to user the uri of your atom file as base URI. (IMHO it is good practice to always set the URI of the file as xml:base on the root element.) So I'd suggest: ongoing -- Sjoerd Visscher http://w3future.com/weblog/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 17 11:12:34 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuAok-0001ko-6h for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:12:34 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA08853 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:12:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HF64og009057; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:06:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6HF64Qr009056; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:06:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vanadium.sabren.com (vanadium.sabren.com [67.19.173.84]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HF633u009049 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:06:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (cpe-066-057-027-065.nc.res.rr.com [66.57.27.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by vanadium.sabren.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6HFBcif029649; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:11:38 -0400 Message-ID: <42DA73DB.90309@intertwingly.net> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:06:03 -0400 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050404) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sjoerd Visscher CC: Tim Bray , atom-syntax WG Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies References: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> In-Reply-To: <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sjoerd Visscher wrote: > Tim Bray wrote: > >> On Jul 16, 2005, at 1:28 PM, Sam Ruby wrote: >> >>> I didn't realize that "path-empty" was a valid URI-reference. >> >> Yeah, it means "here". > > And that's why you can't use it as a reference to your site. > > To quote from RFC 3986: > > When a URI reference refers to a URI that is, aside from its fragment > component (if any), identical to the base URI (Section 5.1), that > reference is called a "same-document" reference. The most frequent > examples of same-document references are relative references that are > empty or include only the number sign ("#") separator followed by a > fragment identifier. > > When a same-document reference is dereferenced for a retrieval > action, the target of that reference is defined to be within the same > entity (representation, document, or message) as the reference; > therefore, a dereference should not result in a new retrieval action. > > So, links to the atom file (as currently in memory), > not your site. This is how the feedvalidator evolves. It is highly unlikely that "here" is what a person intends as an "alternate". Instead, something like the following might be more appropriate. On the other hand, "here" is *exactly* what a person should be intending as "self". ... however, that completely and utterly misses the point of the use case that rel="self" was intended for (subscription given only the content of a feed), UNLESS xml:base is explicitly specified and resolves to a fully qualified URI. Both of these cases merit warnings, IMHO. Please consider updating http://intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/FormatTests with these and any other situations worth warning people about. - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 17 11:13:23 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuApW-0001o8-NP for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:13:23 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA08883 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:13:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HF45Pg008729; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:04:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6HF45WX008728; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:04:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6HF43Nn008720 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:04:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from derhoermi@gmx.net) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 17 Jul 2005 15:03:57 -0000 Received: from dsl-084-056-238-171.arcor-ip.net (EHLO localhost) [84.56.238.171] by mail.gmx.net (mp034) with SMTP; 17 Jul 2005 17:03:57 +0200 X-Authenticated: #723575 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann To: Sjoerd Visscher Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:03:52 +0200 Message-ID: <42f1703f.523265843@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> References: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> In-Reply-To: <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id LAA08883 * Sjoerd Visscher wrote: >And that's why you can't use it as a reference to your site. That depends a bit on same-document reference processing of Atom processors. If the Atom processor assumes the link refers to some web site and passes the absolute reference to some other user agent there would not be a problem. If however e.g. FireFox implements some Atom rendering and makes the link available to the user, it might indeed consider the link to point to the same document and not navigate to the web site. If that's a concern, Tim cannot use http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/ as Base URI. That would of course make using xml:base a bit difficult in practise... --=20 Bj=F6rn H=F6hrmann =B7 mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de =B7 http://bjoern.hoehr= mann.de Weinh. Str. 22 =B7 Telefon: +49(0)621/4309674 =B7 http://www.bjoernsworld= .de 68309 Mannheim =B7 PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 =B7 http://www.websitedev.d= e/=20 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 17 11:22:44 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuAya-0004QU-76 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:22:44 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA09195 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:22:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HFG2p4009995; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:16:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6HFG25B009994; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:16:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vanadium.sabren.com (vanadium.sabren.com [67.19.173.84]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HFG1XS009988 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:16:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (cpe-066-057-027-065.nc.res.rr.com [66.57.27.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by vanadium.sabren.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6HFLaBx030643; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:21:36 -0400 Message-ID: <42DA7631.50606@intertwingly.net> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:16:01 -0400 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050404) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sjoerd Visscher CC: Tim Bray , atom-syntax WG Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies References: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> In-Reply-To: <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sjoerd Visscher wrote: > Tim Bray wrote: > >> On Jul 16, 2005, at 1:28 PM, Sam Ruby wrote: >> >>> I didn't realize that "path-empty" was a valid URI-reference. >> >> Yeah, it means "here". > > And that's why you can't use it as a reference to your site. > > To quote from RFC 3986: > > When a URI reference refers to a URI that is, aside from its fragment > component (if any), identical to the base URI (Section 5.1), that > reference is called a "same-document" reference. The most frequent > examples of same-document references are relative references that are > empty or include only the number sign ("#") separator followed by a > fragment identifier. > > When a same-document reference is dereferenced for a retrieval > action, the target of that reference is defined to be within the same > entity (representation, document, or message) as the reference; > therefore, a dereference should not result in a new retrieval action. > > So, links to the atom file (as currently in memory), > not your site. Upon further reading of 3986, I'm convinced that Tim's current feed is correct. Base URI defaults to the Retrieval URI. This gives rise to the common use case of "same-document" references. However, Base URI Embedded in Content. In XML documents, this takes the form of xml:base attribute values. This is the case in Tim's feed. - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 17 11:27:03 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuB2l-0005SB-Bq for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:27:03 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA09320 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:27:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HFL6Dc010279; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:21:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6HFL6ZQ010278; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:21:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-vbr7.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr7.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.27]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HFL4xm010270 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:21:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sjoerd@w3future.com) Received: from [10.0.0.2] (w3future.xs4all.nl [213.84.155.207]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp-vbr7.xs4all.nl (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j6HFL27e008626; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:21:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from sjoerd@w3future.com) Message-ID: <42DA774B.5090903@w3future.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:20:43 +0200 From: Sjoerd Visscher User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sam Ruby CC: Tim Bray , atom-syntax WG Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies References: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> <42DA7631.50606@intertwingly.net> In-Reply-To: <42DA7631.50606@intertwingly.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sam Ruby wrote: > Upon further reading of 3986, I'm convinced that Tim's current feed is > correct. > > Base URI defaults to the Retrieval URI. This gives rise to the common > use case of "same-document" references. > > However, Base URI Embedded in Content. In XML documents, this takes the > form of xml:base attribute values. This is the case in Tim's feed. Where did you read that same-document references only apply when there is no embedded base URI? -- Sjoerd Visscher http://w3future.com/weblog/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 17 11:41:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuBGN-0000ZQ-3x for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:41:07 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA09706 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:41:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HFZuY1011131; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:35:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6HFZubS011130; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:35:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-vbr7.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr7.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.27]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HFZseI011123 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:35:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sjoerd@w3future.com) Received: from [10.0.0.2] (w3future.xs4all.nl [213.84.155.207]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp-vbr7.xs4all.nl (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j6HFZrej014095; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:35:53 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from sjoerd@w3future.com) Message-ID: <42DA7AC7.9050306@w3future.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:35:35 +0200 From: Sjoerd Visscher User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bjoern Hoehrmann CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies References: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> <42f1703f.523265843@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> In-Reply-To: <42f1703f.523265843@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: > * Sjoerd Visscher wrote: > >>And that's why you can't use it as a reference to your site. > > > That depends a bit on same-document reference processing of Atom > processors. If the Atom processor assumes the link refers to some > web site and passes the absolute reference to some other user agent > there would not be a problem. If however e.g. FireFox implements > some Atom rendering and makes the link available to the user, it > might indeed consider the link to point to the same document and > not navigate to the web site. If that's a concern, Tim cannot use > http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/ as Base URI. That would of course > make using xml:base a bit difficult in practise... Actually, it makes using xml:base possible, when there are same-document references involved. There is a bug in Firefox [1] about this. This means that same-document links don't work in f.e. Google cache files. [1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=275689 -- Sjoerd Visscher http://w3future.com/weblog/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 17 12:01:42 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuBaH-0005sT-QR for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:01:41 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA10433 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:01:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HFv2XU012435; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:57:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6HFv2fM012434; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:57:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.196]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HFv1Zb012424 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:57:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i27so891868wra for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:56:56 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=pjfHeZb/Crl8hBjp7jQCmNSNVnURQPlfUJDBUd19y5DcBrR/QlgS5SaqEXXoBS+uO6bXGtaU35wVo8M7z1zRTPicovA7MZ6DtRgyRfwKE9GYuKYWhicGAmBZPFLY4NnPAX/z1odQSn9Fe+p2qRZOnF7DEu4CazUm0zkB1nY1CW4= Received: by 10.54.50.46 with SMTP id x46mr2823wrx; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:56:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.71.13 with HTTP; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:56:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c505071708568eb61@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:56:56 -0400 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: Robert Sayre To: lucas@gonze.com Subject: Re: [rss-media] Re: Media extensions Cc: rss-media@yahoogroups.com, Sam Ruby , Danny Ayers , atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <42D9B4E4.6020605@panix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <1f2ed5cd05071602566cd91799@mail.gmail.com> <42D94998.5050408@gmail.com> <20050716183157.GB6092@klangraum> <1f2ed5cd05071612396c6ebf3f@mail.gmail.com> <42D97088.6020401@intertwingly.net> <68fba5c505071617585055129d@mail.gmail.com> <42D9B4E4.6020605@panix.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6HFv2Zb012429 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/16/05, Lucas Gonze wrote: > > About a formal standards process, as far as I can tell the only two Bigs > involved right now are Apple and Yahoo. Is there anybody else? > > We can assume that Y! would be pretty friendly. It's not a given that > they would participate, but it's plausible. Apple, though, is a > different story. Apple is a pretty good Web standards citizen. Here's an example: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-dist-auth/2005JulSep/0063.html > Is there any reason to think that they would take it seriously? I would ask the opposite question. Why should they take yet another "nonono, use *my* fork" conversation seriously? The last one didn't go real well. It's important to realize that choosing not to standardize carries a risk as well. For example, an Evil Cadre of Large Corporations and Their Pawns could standardize something similar. If something like that happens, your evangelism effort will probably take more time and energy than a standards organization would. The risk of someone else doing something similar in a voting-based standards organization is pretty high, and the damage/good of such an effort is unkown. Each standards organization's process is a known quantity. I would jump first if I were you. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 17 12:40:02 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuCBO-0008BJ-Sn for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:40:02 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA11914 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:39:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HGP4Xs014524; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 09:25:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6HGP4vM014523; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 09:25:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HGP3uD014511 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 09:25:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6HGOH6q023968 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:24:23 +0100 (BST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) In-Reply-To: <42DA774B.5090903@w3future.com> References: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> <42DA7631.50606@intertwingly.net> <42DA774B.5090903@w3future.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Graham Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:24:16 +0100 To: Atom Syntax X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 17 Jul 2005, at 4:20 pm, Sjoerd Visscher wrote: > Where did you read that same-document references only apply when > there is no embedded base URI? Scroll down to the algorithm in 5.2.2, and it backs up Tim and Sam, in particular this: if (R.path == "") then T.path = Base.path; It seems pretty clear to me that whoever wrote the same-document references section simply wasn't thinking about embedded base URIs, and thus it can be safely ignored. Your interpretation would contradict not just the algorithm but practically the whole of the rest of the document. Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 17 14:16:15 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuDgU-0006XY-UM for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:16:15 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA15820 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:16:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HIB0OR023820; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:11:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6HIB08I023819; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:11:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-vbr15.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr15.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HIAxaq023813 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:10:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sjoerd@w3future.com) Received: from [10.0.0.2] (w3future.xs4all.nl [213.84.155.207]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp-vbr15.xs4all.nl (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j6HIAvdX068965; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 20:10:58 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from sjoerd@w3future.com) Message-ID: <42DA9F1D.1000608@w3future.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 20:10:37 +0200 From: Sjoerd Visscher User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies References: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> <42DA7631.50606@intertwingly.net> <42DA774B.5090903@w3future.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > > > On 17 Jul 2005, at 4:20 pm, Sjoerd Visscher wrote: > >> Where did you read that same-document references only apply when >> there is no embedded base URI? > > > Scroll down to the algorithm in 5.2.2, and it backs up Tim and Sam, in > particular this: > > if (R.path == "") then > T.path = Base.path; Yes, so if the URI reference is empty, then the target path is the base path, and so with embedded base URIs it is the embedded base URI. To again quote the spec: "When a URI reference refers to a URI that is, aside from its fragment component (if any), identical to the base URI (Section 5.1), that reference is called a "same-document" reference." This is all done after the algorithm has run, which specifically says that the uri is identical to the base URI, so it is a same-document reference. > It seems pretty clear to me that whoever wrote the same-document > references section simply wasn't thinking about embedded base URIs, and > thus it can be safely ignored. Your interpretation would contradict not > just the algorithm but practically the whole of the rest of the document. Not at all. You have to remember that beging a same-document reference sais nothing about what the URI actually is, but only that: When a same-document reference is dereferenced for a retrieval action, the target of that reference is defined to be within the same entity (representation, document, or message) as the reference; therefore, a dereference should not result in a new retrieval action. -- Sjoerd Visscher http://w3future.com/weblog/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 17 14:24:22 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuDoM-0008Uu-F6 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:24:22 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA16134 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:24:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HIIQUO024375; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:18:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6HIIQla024374; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:18:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6HIIPBm024365 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:18:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from derhoermi@gmx.net) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 17 Jul 2005 18:18:19 -0000 Received: from dsl-084-056-247-032.arcor-ip.net (EHLO localhost) [84.56.247.32] by mail.gmx.net (mp004) with SMTP; 17 Jul 2005 20:18:19 +0200 X-Authenticated: #723575 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann To: Graham Cc: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 20:18:15 +0200 Message-ID: <42f39fa4.535399281@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> References: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> <42DA7631.50606@intertwingly.net> <42DA774B.5090903@w3future.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id OAA16134 * Graham wrote: >It seems pretty clear to me that whoever wrote the same-document =20 >references section simply wasn't thinking about embedded base URIs, =20 >and thus it can be safely ignored. Read e.g. . --=20 Bj=F6rn H=F6hrmann =B7 mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de =B7 http://bjoern.hoehr= mann.de Weinh. Str. 22 =B7 Telefon: +49(0)621/4309674 =B7 http://www.bjoernsworld= .de 68309 Mannheim =B7 PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 =B7 http://www.websitedev.d= e/=20 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 17 14:49:39 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuECp-0005wH-0X for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:49:39 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA17266 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:49:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HIi7Ka026352; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:44:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6HIi7dh026351; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:44:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HIi6Fb026343 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:44:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6HIgrVJ014941 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 19:42:59 +0100 (BST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) In-Reply-To: <42f39fa4.535399281@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> References: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> <42DA7631.50606@intertwingly.net> <42DA774B.5090903@w3future.com> <42f39fa4.535399281@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <1E4F9650-FD74-4773-B078-D1DC66705D6D@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Graham Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 19:42:51 +0100 To: Atom Syntax X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 17 Jul 2005, at 7:18 pm, Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: > Read e.g. . So the assertion is that if a link happens to be the same as xml:base, then the current document should be considered to *be* the document at xml:base? That's ludicrous and arbitrary. Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 17 15:48:36 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuF7s-0002rC-5t for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 15:48:36 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA21073 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 15:48:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HJev6k031891; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:40:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6HJevNd031890; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:40:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-vbr9.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr9.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.29]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HJet3b031883 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:40:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sjoerd@w3future.com) Received: from [10.0.0.2] (w3future.xs4all.nl [213.84.155.207]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp-vbr9.xs4all.nl (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j6HJesYg078083; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 21:40:54 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from sjoerd@w3future.com) Message-ID: <42DAB433.2020904@w3future.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 21:40:35 +0200 From: Sjoerd Visscher User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies References: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> <42DA7631.50606@intertwingly.net> <42DA774B.5090903@w3future.com> <42f39fa4.535399281@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <1E4F9650-FD74-4773-B078-D1DC66705D6D@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <1E4F9650-FD74-4773-B078-D1DC66705D6D@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > > On 17 Jul 2005, at 7:18 pm, Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: > >> Read e.g. . > > > So the assertion is that if a link happens to be the same as xml:base, > then the current document should be considered to *be* the document at > xml:base? That's ludicrous and arbitrary. No. It requires the correct point of view of what a base URI actually means. It's not just a handy tool to shorten URI references. It is meant to indicate the original URI of the content, for when the context is used somewhere else. It has always been that way, see f.e. a quote from a really old HTML spec (1992): Base Address Anchors specify addresses of other documents, in a from relative to the address of the current document. Normally, the address of a document is known to the browser because it was used to access the document. However, is a document is mailed, or is somehow visible with more than one address (for example, via its filename and also via its library name server catalogue number), then the browser needs to know the base address in order to correctly deduce external document addresses. http://www.w3.org/History/19921103-hypertext/hypertext/WWW/MarkUp/Tags.html#11 Nowadays good examples are Google cache, the wayback machine and XInclude. -- Sjoerd Visscher http://w3future.com/weblog/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 17 18:23:52 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuHY8-00044C-9m for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:23:52 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA01196 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:23:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HMGPns045856; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 15:16:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6HMGPC2045855; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 15:16:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.147.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HMGPB8045842 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 15:16:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA2FFA1 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 15:16:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (spike.verity.com [192.168.4.22]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j6HMGGkv017395 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 15:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 15:16:23 -0700 From: Walter Underwood To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: FormatTests Message-ID: <0FC00F566D26DD29DE6D6F65@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: References: <42D2D230.8080001@intertwingly.net> <45B655D5-EEB0-404D-9E47-F0E2AB29F86E@mac.com> <42D83694.1050403@intertwingly.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Mac OS X) X-Face: 7Vqnb4fOVKsO)3JuUXKxR\M]:e"u'eG`Zue*.((7i7%P%rvZgS[j~95@C-s3i (s!e;OX`'Pngn5lq*Td}#,"5!^jm(65.";[GPtD^c(/1TtMe&wYO;_}\!}fRkxs%q#Jk 5E^BlXwR+8}qOwy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On July 17, 2005 3:45:26 PM +0100 Graham wrote: > Now do you see why canonical ids are stupid and irrelevant? Not unless the robustness principal is stupid and irrelevant. Canonical IDs are more robust. Feeds that use them will work better in the quick-and-dirty, "Desperate Perl Hacker" environment of the internet. The updated warning is just right. Thank you for using Atom, here is how you can do a better job. wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Architect, Verity From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 17 19:28:06 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuIYH-0008Jl-UZ for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 19:28:06 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA04376 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 19:28:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HNMDtX051469; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:22:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6HNMDtB051468; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:22:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [10.20.30.249] ([63.125.5.203]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HNJdUL051141; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:19:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <68fba5c505071617585055129d@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f2ed5cd05071602566cd91799@mail.gmail.com> <42D94998.5050408@gmail.com> <20050716183157.GB6092@klangraum> <1f2ed5cd05071612396c6ebf3f@mail.gmail.com> <42D97088.6020401@intertwingly.net> <68fba5c505071617585055129d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:19:35 -0700 To: atom-syntax@imc.org, rss-media@yahoogroups.com From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: Media extensions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At 8:58 PM -0400 7/16/05, Robert Sayre wrote: >I hesitate to put a number on it, but our experience included a >ghastly amount of debate on field names. If I were setting up a WG for >something like Media RSS, I would probably rule debate on field names >out of order (realizing that people have to pick something to propose >a *new* feature), and leave field names up to the editors until WG >last call. We don't need a new WG: it could possibly be done in this WG if there is interest in updating the charter and willingness from Scott Hollenbeck. I would only entertain a charter extension if we had a volunteer to be the document author, and expressed interest from developers. This will certainly be contentious. Alternatively, someone can write an individual Internet Draft that is just discussed on this list, with no rules about how changes are made to the draft. This is definitely lighter-weight, but much more likely to bring bad feelings and lack of consensus unless the draft authors are really good at listening. Still, it is easy to do. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 17 19:28:27 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuIYd-0008Kl-80 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 19:28:27 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA04405 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 19:28:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6HNL1Ai051378; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:21:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6HNL1rb051377; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:21:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6HNKx9a051357 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:21:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 17 Jul 2005 23:20:50 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-240-253.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.240.253] by mail.gmx.net (mp012) with SMTP; 18 Jul 2005 01:20:50 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 01:25:21 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: FormatTests Message-ID: <20050717232521.GB18031@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <42D2D230.8080001@intertwingly.net> <45B655D5-EEB0-404D-9E47-F0E2AB29F86E@mac.com> <42D83694.1050403@intertwingly.net> <20050716155549.GA5388@klangraum> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050716155549.GA5388@klangraum> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id TAA04405 * A. Pagaltzis [2005-07-16 18:00]: > I suppose the message you got was > http://www.feedvalidator.org/docs/warning/ObscureEncoding.html ? Err, of course not, but now I=E2=80=99m not sure that http://www.feedvalidator.org/docs/warning/NonCanonicalURI.html is new or was simply changed. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 17 20:14:03 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuJGl-00012u-7m for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 20:14:03 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA06389 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 20:14:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6I09dO5055483; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:09:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6I09dtU055482; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:09:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.195]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6I09ccm055458 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:09:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i36so913050wra for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:09:33 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=EDZ2gmhzW6/65owBNQkqEu1JSsF0YEp2CU/SJosHQ4qZ4m/m/K597mnY3ZORufbjHUsX30uCRHF2VX3fZ/FiLvY0s4TNcxm6q2LMt6au8X2Yqfgdc01+CekFvPE5phKDMqmvNLUwiKzqZRGhky7oTV5uJJXbook6nzL+2M8ndp8= Received: by 10.54.51.74 with SMTP id y74mr196204wry; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:09:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.71.13 with HTTP; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:09:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c505071717091f2ba44d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 20:09:33 -0400 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: Robert Sayre To: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: Media extensions Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org, rss-media@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <1f2ed5cd05071602566cd91799@mail.gmail.com> <42D94998.5050408@gmail.com> <20050716183157.GB6092@klangraum> <1f2ed5cd05071612396c6ebf3f@mail.gmail.com> <42D97088.6020401@intertwingly.net> <68fba5c505071617585055129d@mail.gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6I09ccm055469 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/17/05, Paul Hoffman wrote: > I would only entertain a charter > extension if we had a volunteer to be the document author, and > expressed interest from developers. This will certainly be > contentious. > > Alternatively, someone can write an individual Internet Draft that is > just discussed on this list, with no rules about how changes are made > to the draft. This is definitely lighter-weight, but much more likely > to bring bad feelings and lack of consensus unless the draft authors > are really good at listening. Still, it is easy to do. Media RSS already has an effective editor who is also a good listener: Yahoo's David Hall. If the Media RSS folks (or some other constituency who've done their homework) want to use this WG as their venue, that would be great. If not, I would be opposed to modifying the charter. That seems like self-perpetuating bureaucracy. Another way of putting it would be that, absent new participants, I favor completing the autodiscovery and protocol drafts and closing the WG. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 17 20:31:52 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuJY0-0004v2-81 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 20:31:52 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA07339 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 20:31:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6I0J914056513; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:19:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6I0J9VX056512; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:19:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6I0J8q3056506 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:19:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6I0J8r3007132 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:19:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fe7 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IJS00IFYRJU5B@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:19:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.24] ([216.113.202.7]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IJS00G6VRJIFG@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:18:54 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:18:55 -0700 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies In-reply-to: <42DA7631.50606@intertwingly.net> To: Sam Ruby Cc: Sjoerd Visscher , atom-syntax WG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> <42DA7631.50606@intertwingly.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Jul 17, 2005, at 8:16 AM, Sam Ruby wrote: > Upon further reading of 3986, I'm convinced that Tim's current feed > is correct. I think so too, but I'm worried how XML-reader implementations will do supporting all this base-URI stacking. If this kind of thing is going to cause breakage, maybe it's not good practice. Consider this in the context of http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/08/16/specs > However, Base URI Embedded in Content. In XML documents, this > takes the form of xml:base attribute values. This is the case in > Tim's feed. And further note that our section 2. of the Atom spec specifically calls out 5.1.1 of 3986; so I think the rules are on my side. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 18 04:07:59 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuQfP-0007m4-Dh for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 04:07:59 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA19217 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 04:07:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6I801pR064746; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 01:00:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6I801RR064744; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 01:00:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from krusty.greenbytes.de (mail.greenbytes.de [217.5.201.10] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6I7xxpe064715 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 01:00:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stefan.eissing@greenbytes.de) Received: from [192.168.1.26] (burns.greenbytes.de [192.168.1.26]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by krusty.greenbytes.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE4E015510F3; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:59:57 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <3E6C7917-B853-4DCF-A33E-7B7EDC9677B5@mnot.net> References: <3E6C7917-B853-4DCF-A33E-7B7EDC9677B5@mnot.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Atom WG From: Stefan Eissing Subject: Re: Feed History -02 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:59:56 +0200 To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Am 16.07.2005 um 17:57 schrieb Mark Nottingham: > The Feed History draft has been updated to -02; > > > http://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nottingham-atompub-feed- > history-02.txt > > The most noticeable change in this version is the inclusion of a > namespace URI, to allow implementation. > > I don't intend to update it for a while, so as to gather > implementation feedback. Just a couple of thoughts on reading the document: Ch 3. fh:stateful seems to be only needed for a newborn stateful feed. As an alternative one could drop fh:stateful and define that an empty fh:prev (refering to itself) is the last document in a stateful feed. That would eliminate the cases of wrong mixes of fh:stateful and fh:prev. Ch 5. inserting pseudo-entries into an incomplete feed: would it make sense to have a general way to indicate such pseudo entries? A feed entry can also get lost at the publisher and the publisher might want to indicate that there once was a feed entry, but that he no longer has the (complete) document. //Stefan Random thoughts: The example of a "top 10" feed (Ch 1) needs some thinking: there are quite some people interested in the history of "top 10" when it comes to music charts. One _could_ make this an atom feed and use the feed history to go back in time. But the underlying model is different from the one atom has, so maybe its not such a good idea after all. (Is there any ordering in a feed, btw.? I know a client can sort by date, but does someone rely on document order of xml elements?) From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 18 05:45:26 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuSBe-0006Os-5f for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 05:45:26 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA26380 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 05:45:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6I9VhHB099184; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 02:31:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6I9VhMu099183; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 02:31:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-vbr2.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr2.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.22]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6I9VfiX099166 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 02:31:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sjoerd@w3future.com) Received: from [10.0.0.2] (w3future.xs4all.nl [213.84.155.207]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp-vbr2.xs4all.nl (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j6I9VZDI042154; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:31:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from sjoerd@w3future.com) Message-ID: <42DB76EA.4000509@w3future.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:31:22 +0200 From: Sjoerd Visscher User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Bray CC: Sam Ruby , atom-syntax WG Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies References: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> <42DA7631.50606@intertwingly.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > > On Jul 17, 2005, at 8:16 AM, Sam Ruby wrote: > >> Upon further reading of 3986, I'm convinced that Tim's current feed >> is correct. > > > I think so too, but I'm worried how XML-reader implementations will do > supporting all this base-URI stacking. If this kind of thing is going > to cause breakage, maybe it's not good practice. Consider this in the > context of http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/08/16/specs > >> However, Base URI Embedded in Content. In XML documents, this takes >> the form of xml:base attribute values. This is the case in Tim's feed. > > > And further note that our section 2. of the Atom spec specifically > calls out 5.1.1 of 3986; so I think the rules are on my side. -Tim Section 5.1.1 has nothing to do with the problem. Yes, your resolves to http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/ But if you say "follow that link" in a program with same-document references support, it will say: "Ok, the link points to http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/, and the base URI is http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/ as well, so I have to return the current document instead of doing a new request." The changes of that happening are quite slim, I know, but your feed will be used as an example, and should avoid anything that could lead to problems, however slim the chances. -- Sjoerd Visscher http://w3future.com/weblog/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 18 10:26:21 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuWZZ-0000Ar-FO for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:26:21 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA16050 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:26:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IEKIuI097465; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 07:20:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6IEKI3u097464; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 07:20:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IEKHLU097253 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 07:20:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6IEIaPT002755; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:18:46 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <0FC00F566D26DD29DE6D6F65@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> References: <42D2D230.8080001@intertwingly.net> <45B655D5-EEB0-404D-9E47-F0E2AB29F86E@mac.com> <42D83694.1050403@intertwingly.net> <0FC00F566D26DD29DE6D6F65@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <235CE807-761A-46AE-A962-4C8848A87DD0@mac.com> Cc: atom-syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Graham Subject: Re: FormatTests Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:18:37 +0100 To: Walter Underwood X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 17 Jul 2005, at 11:16 pm, Walter Underwood wrote: > Not unless the robustness principal is stupid and irrelevant. > Canonical IDs are more robust. Feeds that use them will work better > in the quick-and-dirty, "Desperate Perl Hacker" environment of the > internet. As long as those intermediaries corrupt IDs in exactly the right way. Good luck with that. Meanwhile, all new postings to my blog will have the ids differentiated by varying the capitalization of the hostname, and nothing else. Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 18 11:16:55 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuXMU-0005w2-WF for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:16:55 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA20248 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:16:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IFAq0m003803; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 08:10:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6IFAq3P003802; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 08:10:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IFApqm003777 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 08:10:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id j2so910260nzf for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 08:10:45 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=VlMtpHrAGA4svK2MKuxjy7mTtxdb2bokSlh89IJJrY6CuflqKKQVjMnthptn56ry1YOLWRIwmGVpnbS7NbSQr4hrWmTpopgW0vIySO1fWiUL9xVAbvn55eLQnGRJ9MtHZUMTS9UoKd7oGt140szv/kzZ2gLsYqePEk8hba7a0fg= Received: by 10.36.48.13 with SMTP id v13mr3476199nzv; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 08:10:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 7sm5956941nzo.2005.07.18.08.10.19; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 08:10:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42DBC656.3030401@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 08:10:14 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Eissing CC: Mark Nottingham , Atom WG Subject: Re: Feed History -02 References: <3E6C7917-B853-4DCF-A33E-7B7EDC9677B5@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stefan Eissing wrote: > > Am 16.07.2005 um 17:57 schrieb Mark Nottingham: > >> The Feed History draft has been updated to -02; >> >> http://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nottingham-atompub-feed- >> history-02.txt >> >> The most noticeable change in this version is the inclusion of a >> namespace URI, to allow implementation. >> >> I don't intend to update it for a while, so as to gather >> implementation feedback. > > > Just a couple of thoughts on reading the document: > > Ch 3. fh:stateful seems to be only needed for a newborn stateful > feed. As an alternative one could drop fh:stateful and define that an > empty fh:prev (refering to itself) is the last document in a stateful > feed. That would eliminate the cases of wrong mixes of fh:stateful > and fh:prev. > +1. After going through this, fh:stateful really doesn't seem to be necessary. the presence of fh:prev would be sufficient to indicate that the feed has a history and a blank fh:prev would work fine to indicate the end of the history. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 18 12:36:39 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuYbe-0003AU-UF for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:36:39 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA26364 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:36:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IGR65F012779; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:27:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6IGR6Kq012778; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:27:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6IGR41O012764 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:27:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 18 Jul 2005 16:26:52 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-243-14.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.243.14] by mail.gmx.net (mp004) with SMTP; 18 Jul 2005 18:26:52 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:31:21 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax WG Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies Message-ID: <20050718163121.GA21135@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax WG References: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> <42DA7631.50606@intertwingly.net> <42DB76EA.4000509@w3future.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42DB76EA.4000509@w3future.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id MAA26364 * Sjoerd Visscher [2005-07-18 11:50]: > Yes, your resolves to > http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/ But if you say "follow that link" > in a program with same-document references support, it will > say: "Ok, the link points to http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/, and > the base URI is http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/ as well, so I > have to return the current document instead of doing a new > request." He is correct, Tim. The base URI means =E2=80=9Cthe URL where this document was found,=E2=80=9D not =E2=80=9Cthe prefix for any enclosed rel= ative links.=E2=80=9D I don=E2=80=99t see how RFC3986 can be read any other way. Since is certainly not found at , the xml:base should not say it is. Using as the base URI for just the respective entry, on the premise that its content =E2=80=9Coriginated=E2=80=9D from the document in that location, = seems plausible =E2=80=93 as long as you are fine with your alternate link being considered a same-document reference. All else seems like abuse of xml:base for accidental effects. So it would be ongoing ... And while this is highly subjective, to me that seems more logical too. If we wanted to avoid this, we should have added language to the spec that atom:link[@rel=3D'alternate'] should never be considered a same-document reference, maybe. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 18 12:39:11 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuYe6-0003WN-Vg for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:39:11 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA26500 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:39:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IGWmPj013773; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:32:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6IGWmmS013772; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:32:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IGWmGt013766 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:32:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 73281 invoked by uid 17064); 18 Jul 2005 16:32:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.8]) ([83.112.141.205]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 18 Jul 2005 16:32:47 -0000 In-Reply-To: References: <3E6C7917-B853-4DCF-A33E-7B7EDC9677B5@mnot.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <3BD510EC-6549-4BE4-A962-D571A318FBB4@bblfish.net> Cc: Mark Nottingham , Atom WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: Feed History -02 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:32:45 +0200 To: Stefan Eissing X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry I did not participate in the previous discussion for format 00. I only just realized this was going on. What is clear is that this is really needed! I agree with Stefan Eissing's random thought that it may not be a good idea to use Atom for a "top 10" feed. Atom entries are not ordered in a feed for one. Also as I understand it an entry in a feed is best thought of as a state of an external resource at a time. Making a feed of the top x entries is to use the feed as a closed collection whereas I think it is correctly interpreted as an open one. If that is right, and so fh:stateful is not needed, then would it not be simpler to extend the link element in the following really simple way: Just a thought. In any case I really look forward to having this functionality. Thanks a lot for the huge effort you have put into presenting this idea so clearly and with such patience. Henry Story On 18 Jul 2005, at 09:59, Stefan Eissing wrote: > > Am 16.07.2005 um 17:57 schrieb Mark Nottingham: > >> The Feed History draft has been updated to -02; >> >> http://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nottingham-atompub- >> feed-history-02.txt >> >> The most noticeable change in this version is the inclusion of a >> namespace URI, to allow implementation. >> >> I don't intend to update it for a while, so as to gather >> implementation feedback. >> > > Just a couple of thoughts on reading the document: > > Ch 3. fh:stateful seems to be only needed for a newborn stateful > feed. As an alternative one could drop fh:stateful and define that > an empty fh:prev (refering to itself) is the last document in a > stateful feed. That would eliminate the cases of wrong mixes of > fh:stateful and fh:prev. > > Ch 5. inserting pseudo-entries into an incomplete feed: would it > make sense to have a general way to indicate such pseudo entries? A > feed entry can also get lost at the publisher and the publisher > might want to indicate that there once was a feed entry, but that > he no longer has the (complete) document. > > //Stefan > > Random thoughts: > The example of a "top 10" feed (Ch 1) needs some thinking: there > are quite some people interested in the history of "top 10" when it > comes to music charts. One _could_ make this an atom feed and use > the feed history to go back in time. But the underlying model is > different from the one atom has, so maybe its not such a good idea > after all. (Is there any ordering in a feed, btw.? I know a client > can sort by date, but does someone rely on document order of xml > elements?) > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 18 12:57:42 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuYw2-0000JW-Av for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:57:42 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA27852 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:57:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IGlY6w015426; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:47:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6IGlYfs015425; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:47:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.197]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IGlWh1015402 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:47:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 16so929714nzp for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:47:27 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=TuHCv4bfmAtMSg/z/zkxPaIPZC0xreVijh1U9jNazl+SbCizFJsKYHDwNO2Hg8s/YxSJPM39kg1QxQc6O3aJ/02o+kYLmBI83w7NR+GiXOCqge8343T9L0iAve0NUKEBn3ze8QdiG12G28VeMjxtzdamUhbL0o4FVV7fobUciDg= Received: by 10.36.48.13 with SMTP id v13mr3557561nzv; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id r15sm1485608nza.2005.07.18.09.46.57; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42DBDCFD.4020406@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:46:53 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henry Story CC: Stefan Eissing , Mark Nottingham , Atom WG Subject: Re: Feed History -02 References: <3E6C7917-B853-4DCF-A33E-7B7EDC9677B5@mnot.net> <3BD510EC-6549-4BE4-A962-D571A318FBB4@bblfish.net> In-Reply-To: <3BD510EC-6549-4BE4-A962-D571A318FBB4@bblfish.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henry Story wrote: > > Sorry I did not participate in the previous discussion for format 00. > I only just > realized this was going on. What is clear is that this is really needed! > > I agree with Stefan Eissing's random thought that it may not be a > good idea to use > Atom for a "top 10" feed. Atom entries are not ordered in a feed for > one. Also as I > understand it an entry in a feed is best thought of as a state of an > external resource > at a time. Making a feed of the top x entries is to use the feed as a > closed collection > whereas I think it is correctly interpreted as an open one. > I disagree. Atom could be used very easily for a top 10 feed. What is needed is a simple extension that provides rank orderings for entries. Something as simple as the following would work... ... ... 1 2 3 > If that is right, and so fh:stateful is not needed, then would it not > be simpler to > extend the link element in the following really simple way: > > href="http://example.org/2003/11/index.atom" /> > I actually can't what my opinion on this used to be :-( but right now I'm thinking that a custom link relation is the right approach. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 18 13:01:50 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuZ02-0000sN-AO for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:01:50 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA28079 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:01:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IGu96a016484; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:56:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6IGu9DX016483; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:56:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [205.237.194.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IGu8Gk016477 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:56:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.20.102.67] (unknown [192.233.92.205]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00B18A34CE; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:56:02 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <42DBC656.3030401@gmail.com> References: <3E6C7917-B853-4DCF-A33E-7B7EDC9677B5@mnot.net> <42DBC656.3030401@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <686C85E5-6AB3-4E4C-A0ED-F0F1F2D3B54E@mnot.net> Cc: Stefan Eissing , Atom WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History -02 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:55:57 -0400 To: James M Snell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 18/07/2005, at 11:10 AM, James M Snell wrote: >> Ch 3. fh:stateful seems to be only needed for a newborn stateful >> feed. As an alternative one could drop fh:stateful and define >> that an empty fh:prev (refering to itself) is the last document >> in a stateful feed. That would eliminate the cases of wrong mixes >> of fh:stateful and fh:prev. >> >> > +1. After going through this, fh:stateful really doesn't seem to be > necessary. the presence of fh:prev would be sufficient to indicate > that the feed has a history and a blank fh:prev would work fine to > indicate the end of the history. I thought about the comments on the plane yesterday, and I agree. However, I'm wary of special URI values; also, I want to preserve stateful=false. So, what about saying that you can omit fh:stateful *if* fh:prev is in the feed? -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 18 13:04:46 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuZ2s-0001tf-Ii for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:04:46 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA28282 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:04:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IGwIQq016691; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:58:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6IGwI1Y016690; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:58:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [205.237.194.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IGwHX7016683 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:58:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.20.102.67] (unknown [192.233.92.205]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B754CA32E8; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:58:15 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <3BD510EC-6549-4BE4-A962-D571A318FBB4@bblfish.net> References: <3E6C7917-B853-4DCF-A33E-7B7EDC9677B5@mnot.net> <3BD510EC-6549-4BE4-A962-D571A318FBB4@bblfish.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Stefan Eissing , Atom WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History -02 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:58:12 -0400 To: Henry Story X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That's what I originally did, but I have a rather strong preference to make a single syntax work in RSS and Atom. atom:link is (naturally) specific to Atom, and people will balk at using the atom namespace in RSS feeds. That's not to say that every Atom extension should be usable in RSS, but I think this one is simple -- and valuable -- enough to do it; and, I don't see any technical benefit to using the link relation. Cheers, On 18/07/2005, at 12:32 PM, Henry Story wrote: > If that is right, and so fh:stateful is not needed, then would it > not be simpler to > extend the link element in the following really simple way: > > type="application/atom+xml" > href="http://example.org/2003/11/index.atom" /> > > Just a thought. -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 18 13:07:24 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuZ5Q-0002dL-Nn for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:07:24 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA28463 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:07:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IH0lTr016885; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:00:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6IH0lbu016884; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:00:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IH0kYR016859 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:00:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 49so977417wri for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:00:41 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=aCZnU6DDPkHzzEnnq1SrLO6w5hG6L0Hkep5hXgr2q3EwnBMPdsaWidcmPci0Zd/f+Ys9DrSBq+8/nZTJM3/r/iId52EX8/4M2FaM8vLB5yvxgCQBx+q4nucKw9vD3sFG1B8efFJftttJvimBKxm0FXVMeCijOrMXhXg1D9oMmnY= Received: by 10.54.19.62 with SMTP id 62mr231332wrs; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:00:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 39sm1348737wrl.2005.07.18.09.59.34; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42DBDFF1.7010008@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:59:29 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham CC: Stefan Eissing , Atom WG Subject: Re: Feed History -02 References: <3E6C7917-B853-4DCF-A33E-7B7EDC9677B5@mnot.net> <42DBC656.3030401@gmail.com> <686C85E5-6AB3-4E4C-A0ED-F0F1F2D3B54E@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <686C85E5-6AB3-4E4C-A0ED-F0F1F2D3B54E@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Nottingham wrote: > > On 18/07/2005, at 11:10 AM, James M Snell wrote: > >>> Ch 3. fh:stateful seems to be only needed for a newborn stateful >>> feed. As an alternative one could drop fh:stateful and define that >>> an empty fh:prev (refering to itself) is the last document in a >>> stateful feed. That would eliminate the cases of wrong mixes of >>> fh:stateful and fh:prev. >>> >>> >> +1. After going through this, fh:stateful really doesn't seem to be >> necessary. the presence of fh:prev would be sufficient to indicate >> that the feed has a history and a blank fh:prev would work fine to >> indicate the end of the history. > > > I thought about the comments on the plane yesterday, and I agree. > However, I'm wary of special URI values; also, I want to preserve > stateful=false. > > So, what about saying that you can omit fh:stateful *if* fh:prev is > in the feed? > > > -- > Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ > > I would say that if fh:prev is present, stateful=true is assumed. if fh:prev is not present, stateful=false is assumed. Omit fh:prev in the final feed in the chain and you know you've reached the end. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 18 13:16:57 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuZEf-0004dd-Oq for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:16:57 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA28979 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:16:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IH4aXW017410; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:04:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6IH4acU017409; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:04:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.203]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IH4ZSZ017381 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:04:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i3so1049495wra for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:04:30 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ozWj+9rfHeFAKySfZUEns/Rw7lwaSafVPoSt3MEDz+Osh7UiEGsB9mFza5v6zNkQaLpjpltJOAA0SG/UZMoQLzoaaS9wj4ISx0ZySaI9MG4dNFxPTb9uIyQU/B0wg3Ls+blLLoZS+/HWJTl9xFZuq38cw62cboP7R7veEHy45bY= Received: by 10.54.137.17 with SMTP id k17mr435558wrd; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id d6sm4746619wra.2005.07.18.10.03.45; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42DBE0ED.7060100@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:03:41 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham CC: Henry Story , Stefan Eissing , Atom WG Subject: Re: Feed History -02 References: <3E6C7917-B853-4DCF-A33E-7B7EDC9677B5@mnot.net> <3BD510EC-6549-4BE4-A962-D571A318FBB4@bblfish.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is precedence for using atom:link in RSS feeds. see http://feeds.feedburner.com/ITConversations-EverythingMP3. I really don't think it's a problem. Mark Nottingham wrote: > > That's what I originally did, but I have a rather strong preference > to make a single syntax work in RSS and Atom. atom:link is > (naturally) specific to Atom, and people will balk at using the atom > namespace in RSS feeds. > > That's not to say that every Atom extension should be usable in RSS, > but I think this one is simple -- and valuable -- enough to do it; > and, I don't see any technical benefit to using the link relation. > > Cheers, > > On 18/07/2005, at 12:32 PM, Henry Story wrote: > >> If that is right, and so fh:stateful is not needed, then would it >> not be simpler to >> extend the link element in the following really simple way: >> >> > type="application/atom+xml" >> href="http://example.org/2003/11/index.atom" /> >> >> Just a thought. > > > > -- > Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 18 13:34:58 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuZW6-0000qL-3h for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:34:58 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA00289 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:34:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IHTjcu022874; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:29:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6IHTjtf022873; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:29:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from krusty.greenbytes.de (mail.greenbytes.de [217.5.201.10] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IHTiuk022865 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:29:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stefan.eissing@greenbytes.de) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (H0445.h.pppool.de [85.72.4.69]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by krusty.greenbytes.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2C414A60F6C; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 19:29:41 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <42DBDFF1.7010008@gmail.com> References: <3E6C7917-B853-4DCF-A33E-7B7EDC9677B5@mnot.net> <42DBC656.3030401@gmail.com> <686C85E5-6AB3-4E4C-A0ED-F0F1F2D3B54E@mnot.net> <42DBDFF1.7010008@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <62999b29e9f7eb289e1283a62a209bfb@greenbytes.de> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Mark Nottingham , Atom WG From: Stefan Eissing Subject: Re: Feed History -02 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 19:29:39 +0200 To: James M Snell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Am 18.07.2005 um 18:59 schrieb James M Snell: > Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> >> On 18/07/2005, at 11:10 AM, James M Snell wrote: >> >>>> Ch 3. fh:stateful seems to be only needed for a newborn stateful >>>> feed. As an alternative one could drop fh:stateful and define >>>> that an empty fh:prev (refering to itself) is the last document >>>> in a stateful feed. That would eliminate the cases of wrong mixes >>>> of fh:stateful and fh:prev. >>>> >>>> >>> +1. After going through this, fh:stateful really doesn't seem to be >>> necessary. the presence of fh:prev would be sufficient to indicate >>> that the feed has a history and a blank fh:prev would work fine to >>> indicate the end of the history. >> >> >> I thought about the comments on the plane yesterday, and I agree. >> However, I'm wary of special URI values; also, I want to preserve >> stateful=false. >> >> So, what about saying that you can omit fh:stateful *if* fh:prev is >> in the feed? >> >> >> -- >> Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ >> >> > I would say that if fh:prev is present, stateful=true is assumed. if > fh:prev is not present, stateful=false is assumed. Omit fh:prev in > the final feed in the chain and you know you've reached the end. stateful gives a hint to a client about caching entries and maybe their representation in a user interface. It may be desired to see that a new feed is stateful(or not) even if it has no history yet. That is why I came up with the empty prev link as a suggestion. I agree that "special" URIs are not that great either. Another idea might be nested elements: stateful feed: http://example.org/thingie1.1 stateful initial feed: stateless feed: So much for the syntactic sugar... //Stefan From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 18 13:37:32 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuZYa-0001dv-Ep for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:37:32 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA00482 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:37:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IHXuiY023261; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:33:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6IHXutS023260; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:33:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [205.237.194.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IHXtG0023254 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:33:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.20.102.67] (unknown [192.233.92.205]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9877A34CF; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:33:54 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <62999b29e9f7eb289e1283a62a209bfb@greenbytes.de> References: <3E6C7917-B853-4DCF-A33E-7B7EDC9677B5@mnot.net> <42DBC656.3030401@gmail.com> <686C85E5-6AB3-4E4C-A0ED-F0F1F2D3B54E@mnot.net> <42DBDFF1.7010008@gmail.com> <62999b29e9f7eb289e1283a62a209bfb@greenbytes.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: James M Snell , Atom WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History -02 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:33:51 -0400 To: Stefan Eissing X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 18/07/2005, at 1:29 PM, Stefan Eissing wrote: > > I agree that "special" URIs are not that great either. Another idea > might be nested elements: > > stateful feed: http://example.org/thingie1.1 fh:prev> > stateful initial feed: > stateless feed: Hmm. My thinking was that allowing stateful to be omitted would be concise and unambiguous; to compare, stateful feed: http://example.org/thingie1.1 stateful initial feed: true stateless feed: false -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 18 13:41:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuZc5-00029Y-ID for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:41:09 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA00736 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:41:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IHa4Hh023500; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:36:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6IHa4rJ023499; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:36:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [205.237.194.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IHa2ix023490 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:36:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.20.102.67] (unknown [192.233.92.205]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04EA6A34DF; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:36:00 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <42DBE0ED.7060100@gmail.com> References: <3E6C7917-B853-4DCF-A33E-7B7EDC9677B5@mnot.net> <3BD510EC-6549-4BE4-A962-D571A318FBB4@bblfish.net> <42DBE0ED.7060100@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Henry Story , Stefan Eissing , Atom WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History -02 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:35:55 -0400 To: James M Snell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not a problem, as such, but I don't see any benefit to reuse. It also begs the question of what an atom element in a non-Atom document means, how it's processed, etc. On 18/07/2005, at 1:03 PM, James M Snell wrote: > There is precedence for using atom:link in RSS feeds. see http:// > feeds.feedburner.com/ITConversations-EverythingMP3. I really don't > think it's a problem. -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 18 13:48:12 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuZiu-0003lo-JO for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:48:12 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA01112 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:48:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IHhgWl024553; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:43:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6IHhg69024552; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:43:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from krusty.greenbytes.de (mail.greenbytes.de [217.5.201.10] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IHhfIA024545 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:43:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stefan.eissing@greenbytes.de) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (H0445.h.pppool.de [85.72.4.69]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by krusty.greenbytes.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAEF04A623D8; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 19:43:39 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: References: <3E6C7917-B853-4DCF-A33E-7B7EDC9677B5@mnot.net> <42DBC656.3030401@gmail.com> <686C85E5-6AB3-4E4C-A0ED-F0F1F2D3B54E@mnot.net> <42DBDFF1.7010008@gmail.com> <62999b29e9f7eb289e1283a62a209bfb@greenbytes.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: James M Snell , Atom WG From: Stefan Eissing Subject: Re: Feed History -02 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 19:43:37 +0200 To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Am 18.07.2005 um 19:33 schrieb Mark Nottingham: > On 18/07/2005, at 1:29 PM, Stefan Eissing wrote: >> >> I agree that "special" URIs are not that great either. Another idea >> might be nested elements: >> >> stateful feed: >> http://example.org/thingie1.1> history> >> stateful initial feed: >> stateless feed: > > Hmm. My thinking was that allowing stateful to be omitted would be > concise and unambiguous; to compare, > > stateful feed: http://example.org/thingie1.1 > stateful initial feed: true > stateless feed: false Fine with me. As I said the discussion has reached the "syntactic sugar" level and your proposal has the same semantics and no nested elements. To be clear I would advise clients that fh:prev takes precedence over any fh:stateful information and then any ambiguity is resolved. //Stefan From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 18 13:48:15 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuZix-0003m0-26 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:48:15 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA01135 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:48:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IHhXFu024519; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:43:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6IHhXcg024518; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:43:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IHhWad024498 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:43:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so929636nzf for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:43:27 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=dCfzF9TgLaFSzZkfAYqfp7Pa7dsc9LV7QNBz5Hrxh8Wz1f7oyZmHJxNLnp/e1BQLW7bnYj6Ml8VxtkUrQsLMh9hdv8JM51FT1uy1HvDRNsW9BFjbZhVYxWeZCZwaVJ+h5U+ZwfAxGhwAF4uSh/Y9PbB9AHspnOi4OY/EzW3oIt4= Received: by 10.36.5.19 with SMTP id 19mr4201663nze; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 5sm513168nzk.2005.07.18.10.42.58; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42DBEA1E.4080800@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:42:54 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham CC: Henry Story , Stefan Eissing , Atom WG Subject: Re: Feed History -02 References: <3E6C7917-B853-4DCF-A33E-7B7EDC9677B5@mnot.net> <3BD510EC-6549-4BE4-A962-D571A318FBB4@bblfish.net> <42DBE0ED.7060100@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Heh... the same questions could be asked about a lot of stuff embedded in RSS but that's not the issue ;-) ... fh:prev works fine. There really isn't a strong argument in favor of link. I have my own personal preferences but those are actually quite irrelevant :-) I'll still maintain that fh:stateful is quite unnecessary but doesn't hurt anything if it's used -- you'll just need to be explicit about such things as what if a fh:prev is used without a fh:stateful being present. Mark Nottingham wrote: > Not a problem, as such, but I don't see any benefit to reuse. It also > begs the question of what an atom element in a non-Atom document > means, how it's processed, etc. > > > On 18/07/2005, at 1:03 PM, James M Snell wrote: > >> There is precedence for using atom:link in RSS feeds. see http:// >> feeds.feedburner.com/ITConversations-EverythingMP3. I really don't >> think it's a problem. > > > > -- > Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 18 14:12:56 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dua6p-0001C8-Vs for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:12:56 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA02789 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:12:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6II4ljG026766; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:04:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6II4lXj026765; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:04:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6II4kR2026758 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:04:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i8so1340359rne for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:04:46 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=AfXogfYhWVXB95M1Y6i21ZqRRZozs1Ztl8G0Lgz+WMUy8fflUCS5BbiLdZvyUQoGfW1SC1jWsny9RstVDzgWoptwpqGUCGygXOD8eg6StuYbMZs+s0Mhvv+Btpk00DTCbmf2WufzMGiDurYxHQHfkdPnAshqh8SWPBW83gmAFKg= Received: by 10.38.88.52 with SMTP id l52mr465488rnb; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id z1sm1778251rne.2005.07.18.11.04.45; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42DBEF38.6020002@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:04:40 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom WG Subject: Atom Index Extension Proposal References: <3E6C7917-B853-4DCF-A33E-7B7EDC9677B5@mnot.net> <42DBC656.3030401@gmail.com> <686C85E5-6AB3-4E4C-A0ED-F0F1F2D3B54E@mnot.net> <42DBDFF1.7010008@gmail.com> <62999b29e9f7eb289e1283a62a209bfb@greenbytes.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI: http://www.snellspace.com/wp/?p=193 Abstract: Proposes two new elements that allow entries to be ordered within a feed. Full details in my blog post. ... ... 1 ... 2 ... 3 - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 18 14:25:35 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuaJ5-00040d-LI for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:25:35 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA03670 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:25:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IIHO0j028285; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:17:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6IIHOtY028284; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:17:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from krusty.greenbytes.de (mail.greenbytes.de [217.5.201.10] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IIHN77028276 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:17:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stefan.eissing@greenbytes.de) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (H0445.h.pppool.de [85.72.4.69]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by krusty.greenbytes.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id E85314A623DC; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:17:21 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: References: <3E6C7917-B853-4DCF-A33E-7B7EDC9677B5@mnot.net> <3BD510EC-6549-4BE4-A962-D571A318FBB4@bblfish.net> <42DBE0ED.7060100@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <1f9ad4d4c8a87d7a20f7deb4cbf5479f@greenbytes.de> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Atom WG From: Stefan Eissing Subject: Re: Feed History -02 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:17:19 +0200 To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On a more semantic issue: The described sync algorithm will work. In most scenarios the abort condition (e.g. all items on a historical feed are known) will also do the job. However this still means that clients need to check the first fh:prev document if they know all entries there - if my understanding is correct. Is it worthy to think of something to spare clients and servers this lookup? Are the HTTP caching and If-* header mechanisms good enough to save network bandwidth? An alternate stragety would be to require that fh:prev documents never change once created. Then a client can terminate the sync once it sees a URI it already knows. And most clients would not do more lookups than they are doing now... //Stefan From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 18 14:29:47 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuaN9-0005Db-Hc for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:29:47 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA04012 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:29:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IIJn8x028542; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:19:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6IIJnMb028538; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:19:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IIJnG0028517 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:19:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 9so951294nzo for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:19:43 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=YqSVRrNme2ZqdtFtBGuu/OXlSQppuB47A3HnEyZqOeMxv0EyajnE9LQoH2oA9BeJ4PftHPERJFJgSua4+LnVWb0Y21rN7aeesmuobzbQTmrUQP8k0xBOijLpsjI8dupZGP9LEEZVE9Is/GJCyt73wgi5lJ9+3TQO1jKkf5KVdTI= Received: by 10.36.33.13 with SMTP id g13mr3630200nzg; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:19:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.47.13 with HTTP; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:19:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd050718111915be6339@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:19:18 +0200 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: rss-media@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [rss-media] Re: Media extensions Cc: Paul Hoffman , atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <68fba5c505071717091f2ba44d@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <1f2ed5cd05071602566cd91799@mail.gmail.com> <42D94998.5050408@gmail.com> <20050716183157.GB6092@klangraum> <1f2ed5cd05071612396c6ebf3f@mail.gmail.com> <42D97088.6020401@intertwingly.net> <68fba5c505071617585055129d@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c505071717091f2ba44d@mail.gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6IIJnG0028528 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/18/05, Robert Sayre wrote: > Media RSS already has an effective editor who is also a good listener: > Yahoo's David Hall. If the Media RSS folks (or some other constituency > who've done their homework) want to use this WG as their venue, that > would be great. If not, I would be opposed to modifying the charter. > That seems like self-perpetuating bureaucracy. > > Another way of putting it would be that, absent new participants, I > favor completing the autodiscovery and protocol drafts and closing the > WG. +1 I suspect the accumulated WG fatigue means probably the only viable route would be with the help of new blood. That isn't to suggest a completely new WG might not be appropriate, I honestly don't know. It might be that all is needed that the model described in Y!mRSS be abstracted from the RSS 2.0 specifics, then re-expressed as Atom & RDF. Given that Atom (and RDF) both have fairly clean extension mechanisms, it shouldn't be necessary to cover every edge case in the 'primary' media extension, just get the core down. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 18 15:56:28 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dubj2-0001Kz-F6 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:56:28 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA11581 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:56:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IJoKq7037266; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:50:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6IJoKS0037265; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:50:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IJoJNT037255 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:50:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rogben@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i5so1081013wra for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:50:14 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=J2ra4AGVqelAywA3jMOoTHPzii30gyRExUgmZnyoS6xuPdnVf2jXfgShDCpMr23t0n3XPoziJGgxm66Y74vzo6KrJ+5jagVm9n2z4/rXetlwWQ8TDp/rsuupKuDfpLNpijnTa38Y6lelHbP9UhMFuFcwFOY5DcjTJFjsoagqAvQ= Received: by 10.54.11.12 with SMTP id 12mr490579wrk; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.104.20 with HTTP; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <540e3732050718124974f67d4@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:49:09 -0500 From: "Roger B." Reply-To: "Roger B." To: atom-syntax WG Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> <42DA7631.50606@intertwingly.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6IJoKNT037260 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/17/05, Tim Bray wrote: > I'm worried how XML-reader implementations will > do supporting all this base-URI stacking. If this kind of thing is > going to cause breakage, maybe it's not good practice. Tim: Oh, there's gonna be breakage. :D I know of at least a few hundred thousand XML parsers in production environments that don't know xml:base even exists, thus requiring all kinds of obnoxious hoop-jumping just to get a few geeky feeds to work... and that's without stacking. -- Roger Benningfield From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 18 16:46:44 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DucVe-0000bE-Pr for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:46:44 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA27235 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:46:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IKffaf041773; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:41:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6IKffpZ041772; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:41:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.1.72]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6IKfea3041756; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:41:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lgonze@panix.com) Received: from mailspool3.panix.com (mailspool3.panix.com [166.84.1.78]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2445B596D3; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:41:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.0.122] (cpe-204-210-122-110.hawaii.res.rr.com [204.210.122.110]) by mailspool3.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 971A293381; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:41:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42DC1411.7040105@panix.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:41:53 -1000 From: Lucas Gonze Reply-To: lucas@gonze.com User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rss-media@yahoogroups.com CC: Paul Hoffman , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: [rss-media] Re: Media extensions References: <1f2ed5cd05071602566cd91799@mail.gmail.com> <42D94998.5050408@gmail.com> <20050716183157.GB6092@klangraum> <1f2ed5cd05071612396c6ebf3f@mail.gmail.com> <42D97088.6020401@intertwingly.net> <68fba5c505071617585055129d@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c505071717091f2ba44d@mail.gmail.com> <1f2ed5cd050718111915be6339@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd050718111915be6339@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Danny Ayers wrote: >It might be that all is needed that the model described in Y!mRSS be >abstracted from the RSS 2.0 specifics, then re-expressed as Atom & >RDF. Given that Atom (and RDF) both have fairly clean extension >mechanisms, it shouldn't be necessary to cover every edge case in the >'primary' media extension, just get the core down. > > Amen. This is the most practical plan so far. It brings in the energy and talent of the mainstream of syndication hackers, and it's a limited project instead of an open-ended one. - Lucas From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 18 18:28:28 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Due67-0004yB-8S for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:28:28 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA05779 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:28:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6ILLllG046681; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:21:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6ILLlZX046680; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:21:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [205.237.194.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6ILLkVm046672 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:21:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.20.102.67] (unknown [192.233.92.205]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68699A32D5; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 17:21:45 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <1f9ad4d4c8a87d7a20f7deb4cbf5479f@greenbytes.de> References: <3E6C7917-B853-4DCF-A33E-7B7EDC9677B5@mnot.net> <3BD510EC-6549-4BE4-A962-D571A318FBB4@bblfish.net> <42DBE0ED.7060100@gmail.com> <1f9ad4d4c8a87d7a20f7deb4cbf5479f@greenbytes.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <141BC3A3-3E8B-43BD-A65C-8FFA7F7FE38F@mnot.net> Cc: Atom WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History -02 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 17:21:41 -0400 To: Stefan Eissing X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 18/07/2005, at 2:17 PM, Stefan Eissing wrote: > On a more semantic issue: > > The described sync algorithm will work. In most scenarios the abort > condition (e.g. all items on a historical feed are known) will also > do the job. However this still means that clients need to check the > first fh:prev document if they know all entries there - if my > understanding is correct. This is one of the unanswered questions that I left out of scope. The consumer can examine the previous archive's URI and decide as to whether it's seen it or not before, and therefore avoid fetching it if it already has seen it. However, in this approach, it won't see changes that are made in the archive (e.g., if a revision -- even a spelling correction -- is made to an old entry); to do that it either has to walk back the *entire* archive each time, or the feed has to publish all changes -- even to old entries -- at the head of the feed. I left it out because it has more to do with questions about entry deleting and ordering than with recovering state. it's an arbitrary decision (I had language about this in the original Pace I made), but it seemed like a good trade-off between complexity and capability. Does that make sense, or am I way off-base? > Is it worthy to think of something to spare clients and servers > this lookup? Are the HTTP caching and If-* header mechanisms good > enough to save network bandwidth? > > An alternate stragety would be to require that fh:prev documents > never change once created. Then a client can terminate the sync > once it sees a URI it already knows. And most clients would not do > more lookups than they are doing now... -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 18 19:30:41 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Duf4J-0007cA-DJ for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 19:30:41 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA22046 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 19:30:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6INKEoV055378; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:20:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6INKEbE055377; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:20:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-vbr3.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr3.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6INKDeH055370 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:20:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sjoerd@w3future.com) Received: from [10.0.0.2] (w3future.xs4all.nl [213.84.155.207]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp-vbr3.xs4all.nl (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j6INK49c016326; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 01:20:05 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from sjoerd@w3future.com) Message-ID: <42DC3915.1030405@w3future.com> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 01:19:49 +0200 From: Sjoerd Visscher User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "A. Pagaltzis" CC: atom-syntax WG Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies References: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> <42DA7631.50606@intertwingly.net> <42DB76EA.4000509@w3future.com> <20050718163121.GA21135@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20050718163121.GA21135@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id TAA22046 A. Pagaltzis wrote: > * Sjoerd Visscher [2005-07-18 11:50]: >=20 >>Yes, your resolves to >>http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/ But if you say "follow that link" >>in a program with same-document references support, it will >>say: "Ok, the link points to http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/, and >>the base URI is http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/ as well, so I >>have to return the current document instead of doing a new >>request." >=20 >=20 > He is correct, Tim. The base URI means =E2=80=9Cthe URL where this > document was found,=E2=80=9D not =E2=80=9Cthe prefix for any enclosed r= elative > links.=E2=80=9D I don=E2=80=99t see how RFC3986 can be read any other w= ay. I am correct ;), but your explanation is wrong. 5.1 says clearly that=20 the "Base URI embedded in content" precedes any other way of=20 establishing a base URI. So the base URI is=20 , and the empty relative URI therefore=20 refers to . But now the "URI reference refers to a URI that is, aside from its=20 fragment component (if any), identical to the base URI", so it is a=20 same-document link, and when "a same-document reference is dereferenced=20 for a retrieval action, the target of that reference is defined to be=20 within the same entity (representation, document, or message) as the=20 reference; therefore, a dereference should not result in a new retrieval=20 action." It is a very complicated way of calculating that an empty relative URI=20 is always the current document, no matter what the base URI is. > So it would be >=20 > xml:base=3D'http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/ongoing.atom' > xml:lang=3D'en-us'> > ongoing > > > ... > If you want it to be perfect xml:base on the entry would be the URI of=20 the Atom Entry Document. And the html base URI should go on the xhtml=20 div element. Just like you get when the entries and the div elements are=20 XIncluded. > If we wanted to avoid this, we should have added language to the > spec that atom:link[@rel=3D'alternate'] should never be considered > a same-document reference, maybe. If your XML package has support for data-typing, xml:base and=20 same-document references, then you could no longer do Node n =3D link.getAttribute("href").dereference(); because Atom would no longer follow standard behaviour. --=20 Sjoerd Visscher http://w3future.com/weblog/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 18 19:48:48 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DufLr-0005Qh-UT for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 19:48:48 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA29841 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 19:48:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6INeZBw056671; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:40:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6INeZtS056670; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:40:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6INeX6Y056659 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:40:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 18 Jul 2005 23:40:21 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-226-156.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.226.156] by mail.gmx.net (mp026) with SMTP; 19 Jul 2005 01:40:21 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 01:44:51 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax WG Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies Message-ID: <20050718234451.GA24146@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax WG References: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> <42DA7631.50606@intertwingly.net> <42DB76EA.4000509@w3future.com> <20050718163121.GA21135@klangraum> <42DC3915.1030405@w3future.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42DC3915.1030405@w3future.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id TAA29841 * Sjoerd Visscher [2005-07-19 01:25]: > A. Pagaltzis wrote: > >He is correct, Tim. The base URI means =E2=80=9Cthe URL where this > >document was found,=E2=80=9D not =E2=80=9Cthe prefix for any enclosed = relative > >links.=E2=80=9D I don=E2=80=99t see how RFC3986 can be read any other = way. >=20 > I am correct ;), but your explanation is wrong. 5.1 says > clearly that the "Base URI embedded in content" precedes any > other way of establishing a base URI. You misunderstood what I said. The point is that regardless of how the base URI is determined (whether it is embedded in content or otherwise), it *means* that the content it applies to was actually found at the base URI. It=E2=80=99s not simply any arbitrary old prefix defined for convenience. > >So it would be > > > > > xml:base=3D'http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/ongoing.atom' > > xml:lang=3D'en-us'> > > ongoing > > > > > > ... > > >=20 > If you want it to be perfect xml:base on the entry would be the > URI of the Atom Entry Document. And the html base URI should go > on the xhtml div element. Just like you get when the entries > and the div elements are XIncluded. Yes =E2=80=93 good point. It was actually bugging me. > >If we wanted to avoid this, we should have added language to > >the spec that atom:link[@rel=3D'alternate'] should never be > >considered a same-document reference, maybe. >=20 > If your XML package has support for data-typing, xml:base and > same-document references, then you could no longer do >=20 > Node n =3D link.getAttribute("href").dereference(); >=20 > because Atom would no longer follow standard behaviour. That is a drawback, yes. Though at at that point you know it=E2=80=99s an atom:link[@rel=3D'alternate'], so you *could* handle it specially =E2=80=93 if the package has a decent API, that shouldn=E2=80=99t be too much effort either. Worst case, you might need to work with different URI resolvers or some such. In any case, it was just an idle thought. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 18 19:56:36 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DufTP-000281-W3 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 19:56:36 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA00594 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 19:56:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6INmD0h057131; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:48:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6INmDuE057130; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:48:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6INmCdl057120 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:48:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 18 Jul 2005 23:48:04 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-226-156.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.226.156] by mail.gmx.net (mp006) with SMTP; 19 Jul 2005 01:48:04 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 01:52:35 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom WG Subject: Re: Feed History -02 Message-ID: <20050718235235.GB24146@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom WG References: <3E6C7917-B853-4DCF-A33E-7B7EDC9677B5@mnot.net> <3BD510EC-6549-4BE4-A962-D571A318FBB4@bblfish.net> <42DBE0ED.7060100@gmail.com> <1f9ad4d4c8a87d7a20f7deb4cbf5479f@greenbytes.de> <141BC3A3-3E8B-43BD-A65C-8FFA7F7FE38F@mnot.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <141BC3A3-3E8B-43BD-A65C-8FFA7F7FE38F@mnot.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id TAA00594 * Mark Nottingham [2005-07-18 23:30]: > This is one of the unanswered questions that I left out of > scope. The consumer can examine the previous archive's URI and > decide as to whether it's seen it or not before, and therefore > avoid fetching it if it already has seen it. However, in this > approach, it won't see changes that are made in the archive > (e.g., if a revision -- even a spelling correction -- is made > to an old entry); to do that it either has to walk back the > *entire* archive each time, or the feed has to publish all > changes -- even to old entries -- at the head of the feed. These are the kinds of things my =E2=80=9Chub archive feed=E2=80=9D situa= tion was supposed to address. Because the links are all in one place, the consumer only has to suck down one document in order to be informed of all archive feeds and being able to decide which ones he wants to re-/get. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 18 21:10:59 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DugdP-0003D6-CU for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:10:59 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA06244 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:10:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6J140bC062716; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:04:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6J140nJ062715; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:04:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-vbr10.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr10.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.30]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6J13xxU062706 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:04:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sjoerd@w3future.com) Received: from [10.0.0.2] (w3future.xs4all.nl [213.84.155.207]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp-vbr10.xs4all.nl (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j6J13qMT089580 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 03:03:57 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from sjoerd@w3future.com) Message-ID: <42DC5176.5020808@w3future.com> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 03:03:50 +0200 From: Sjoerd Visscher User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax WG Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies References: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> <42DA7631.50606@intertwingly.net> <42DB76EA.4000509@w3future.com> <20050718163121.GA21135@klangraum> <42DC3915.1030405@w3future.com> <20050718234451.GA24146@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20050718234451.GA24146@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id VAA06244 A. Pagaltzis wrote: > * Sjoerd Visscher [2005-07-19 01:25]: >=20 >>A. Pagaltzis wrote: >> >>>He is correct, Tim. The base URI means =E2=80=9Cthe URL where this >>>document was found,=E2=80=9D not =E2=80=9Cthe prefix for any enclosed = relative >>>links.=E2=80=9D I don=E2=80=99t see how RFC3986 can be read any other = way. >> >>I am correct ;), but your explanation is wrong. 5.1 says >>clearly that the "Base URI embedded in content" precedes any >>other way of establishing a base URI. >=20 >=20 > You misunderstood what I said. The point is that regardless of > how the base URI is determined (whether it is embedded in content > or otherwise), it *means* that the content it applies to was > actually found at the base URI. It=E2=80=99s not simply any arbitrary o= ld > prefix defined for convenience. Ah, yes, you are absolutely right. I missed that you said "means"=20 instead of "is". That is my interpretation too, but only through the way=20 the base URI is used. I can't find any hint in that direction otherwise.=20 It would be nice if T. Berners-Lee, R. Fielding or L. Masinter could=20 confirm that. If it would have been worded specifically that way, then=20 xml:base could have been seen as the self link for all xml documents. --=20 Sjoerd Visscher http://w3future.com/weblog/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 18 21:44:55 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuhAF-0004SE-EP for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:44:55 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA08053 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:44:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6J1dSKn065701; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:39:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6J1dSKU065699; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:39:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6J1dQVN065691 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:39:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 19 Jul 2005 01:39:16 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-226-156.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.226.156] by mail.gmx.net (mp004) with SMTP; 19 Jul 2005 03:39:16 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 03:43:43 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax WG Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies Message-ID: <20050719014343.GA24537@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax WG References: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> <42DA7631.50606@intertwingly.net> <42DB76EA.4000509@w3future.com> <20050718163121.GA21135@klangraum> <42DC3915.1030405@w3future.com> <20050718234451.GA24146@klangraum> <42DC5176.5020808@w3future.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42DC5176.5020808@w3future.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * Sjoerd Visscher [2005-07-19 03:15]: > That is my interpretation too, but only through the way the > base URI is used. I can't find any hint in that direction > otherwise. It would be nice if T. Berners-Lee, R. Fielding or > L. Masinter could confirm that. If it would have been worded > specifically that way, then xml:base could have been seen as > the self link for all xml documents. The behaviour specified in 2396 and adopted by 3986 pretty clearly seems to point out this intent. Unfortunately, it is generally a problem with any forms of standard that the document that describes it rarely makes mention of any of the discussion and rationale that led to the decisions recorded therein. So it is often difficult to go back and reason about the spirit of the spec, because there is no way of doing that other than by looking at its letter. (This is further complicated by the fact that some issues may never even have had a clear rationale. See f.ex. our current debate about whether atom:link/@href was meant to always be dereferencable or may be any URI at all, abstract or not.) Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 19 02:27:26 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DulZe-0008Oo-7Q for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 02:27:26 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA13223 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 02:27:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6J6JBeb020153; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 23:19:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6J6JBTc020152; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 23:19:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.48]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6J6J9eE020107 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 23:19:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050719061903.IICO889.mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com>; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 07:19:03 +0100 Received: from cpc3-stok1-5-0-cust143.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([82.11.128.143]) by aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050719061903.CAFB713.aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@cpc3-stok1-5-0-cust143.bagu.cable.ntl.com>; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 07:19:03 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 07:19:01 +0100 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.51.4) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <713080605.20050719071901@djpowell.net> To: "A. Pagaltzis" CC: atom-syntax WG Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies In-Reply-To: <20050718234451.GA24146@klangraum> References: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> <42DA7631.50606@intertwingly.net> <42DB76EA.4000509@w3future.com> <20050718163121.GA21135@klangraum> <42DC3915.1030405@w3future.com> <20050718234451.GA24146@klangraum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6J6JAeE020144 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id CAA13223 Tuesday, July 19, 2005, 12:44:51 AM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > You misunderstood what I said. The point is that regardless of > how the base URI is determined (whether it is embedded in content > or otherwise), it *means* that the content it applies to was > actually found at the base URI. It=E2=80=99s not simply any arbitrary o= ld > prefix defined for convenience. Why does xml:base allow for relative base URIs and stacking then? If xml:base can only describe the actual source URI of the document, then these features don't make sense. The example in the xml:base spec [1] uses a relative URI in the element, after defining an absolute URI i= n at the top of the document. If xml:base can only describe the source URI, then one of them must be lying? [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlbase/#syntax --=20 Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 19 04:35:53 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DunZx-0007Ky-HV for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 04:35:53 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA20409 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 04:35:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6J8OvJP070640; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 01:24:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6J8OvqD070639; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 01:24:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6J8OtKL070592 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 01:24:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 19 Jul 2005 08:24:31 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-251-110.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.251.110] by mail.gmx.net (mp023) with SMTP; 19 Jul 2005 10:24:31 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:28:50 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax WG Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies Message-ID: <20050719082850.GA27537@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax WG References: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> <42DA7631.50606@intertwingly.net> <42DB76EA.4000509@w3future.com> <20050718163121.GA21135@klangraum> <42DC3915.1030405@w3future.com> <20050718234451.GA24146@klangraum> <713080605.20050719071901@djpowell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <713080605.20050719071901@djpowell.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id EAA20409 * David Powell [2005-07-19 08:25]: > Why does xml:base allow for relative base URIs and stacking > then? If xml:base can only describe the actual source URI of > the document, then these features don't make sense. Indeed, they don=E2=80=99t. > The example in the xml:base spec [1] uses a relative URI in the > element, after defining an > absolute URI in at > the top of the document. >=20 > [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlbase/#syntax That example says: the content of the root element can be found in the resource at , and the content of the olist tag can be found in the resource at . xml:base is quite apparently being used as =E2=80=9Ca prefix for calculating relative URIs=E2=80=9D in= stead of =E2=80=9Cthe source URI for the material found inside this tag.=E2=80=9D It makes me wonder whether the person who wrote the example was unaware of the consequences of the same-document reference specifications in the URI RFC. Surely, the xml:base WG must have noticed this issue and discussed it? > If xml:base can only describe the source URI, then one of them > must be lying? xml:base provides a mechanism to describe the base URI of any part of an XML document. If you copy bits from another document and don=E2=80=99t want to munge contained URI references, then you will need to set an xml:base on the copied container element for these copied bits. Notice that xml:base describes **a base URI**. The xml:base TR does not define what a base URI is. It=E2=80=99s RFC3986 (and originally, RFC2396) which does, while describing just what an URI is, to begin with. The same-document reference stanza in the URI RFCs is clear evidence that in the spirit of the spec, =E2=80=9Cbase URI=E2=80=9D= means =E2=80=9Cthe source URI of the content,=E2=80=9D not =E2=80=9Cthe prefix = I wish to apply to relative references.=E2=80=9D Now, xml:base appears to try to address the situation where an aggregate document may contain fragments from many sources, and each of which thus has its own base URI. But the devilish detail is that RFC-specified behaviour means that if a useragent were to find a link to somewhere inside the example document except inside the olist tag, or a link to inside the olist tag, it may not retrieve that URL =E2=80=93 instead it would have to consider the XML document itself to be the document found at the respective URL. This is what RFC3986 says. The xml:base TR contains no language that would contradict, or even enforce, or in fact at all address this point. We therefore have to go by the behaviour specified in RFC3986 when we determine how a user agent resolves URIs. At first, I thought the RFC-specified same-document reference stanza made no sense. But then I realized it is perfectly fine and absolutely desirable for the case where the =E2=80=9Cbase URI embedded in content=E2=80=9D applies to the entire document. It is the xml:base TR which is at odds with this; applying same-document reference behaviour to fragments of an aggregate document is non-sensical. The more I think about it, the more it seems like this interaction is Broken As Designed. xml:base should not have adopted the =E2=80=9Cbase URI=E2=80=9D term =E2=80=93 bas= ically, it appears that the very attribute name itself is a misnomer. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 19 04:56:58 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DunuL-0004NK-Nl for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 04:56:58 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA21596 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 04:56:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6J8mbeM079377; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 01:48:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6J8mb2p079376; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 01:48:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from krusty.greenbytes.de (mail.greenbytes.de [217.5.201.10] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6J8maxL079361 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 01:48:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stefan.eissing@greenbytes.de) Received: from [192.168.1.26] (burns.greenbytes.de [192.168.1.26]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by krusty.greenbytes.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28F9D4A7C083; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:48:34 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <141BC3A3-3E8B-43BD-A65C-8FFA7F7FE38F@mnot.net> References: <3E6C7917-B853-4DCF-A33E-7B7EDC9677B5@mnot.net> <3BD510EC-6549-4BE4-A962-D571A318FBB4@bblfish.net> <42DBE0ED.7060100@gmail.com> <1f9ad4d4c8a87d7a20f7deb4cbf5479f@greenbytes.de> <141BC3A3-3E8B-43BD-A65C-8FFA7F7FE38F@mnot.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Atom WG From: Stefan Eissing Subject: Re: Feed History -02 Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:48:34 +0200 To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Am 18.07.2005 um 23:21 schrieb Mark Nottingham: > On 18/07/2005, at 2:17 PM, Stefan Eissing wrote: > >> On a more semantic issue: >> >> The described sync algorithm will work. In most scenarios the abort >> condition (e.g. all items on a historical feed are known) will also >> do the job. However this still means that clients need to check the >> first fh:prev document if they know all entries there - if my >> understanding is correct. > > This is one of the unanswered questions that I left out of scope. The > consumer can examine the previous archive's URI and decide as to > whether it's seen it or not before, and therefore avoid fetching it if > it already has seen it. However, in this approach, it won't see > changes that are made in the archive (e.g., if a revision -- even a > spelling correction -- is made to an old entry); to do that it either > has to walk back the *entire* archive each time, or the feed has to > publish all changes -- even to old entries -- at the head of the feed. > > I left it out because it has more to do with questions about entry > deleting and ordering than with recovering state. it's an arbitrary > decision (I had language about this in the original Pace I made), but > it seemed like a good trade-off between complexity and capability. It is a valid starting point. I am just wondering what consequences it has on client implementations. Let's say CNN goes stateful, how would a client handle a history which soon consists of thousands of entries. How would a server best offer such a history to avoid clients retrieving it over and over again. Probably nobody has a good idea on that one, or? I have the feeling that clients will need to protect themselves from servers with almost infinite histories. So a client will probably offer a XX days into the past, max NN entries setting in its UI. Maybe that is all that's needed. How about: "In case feeds are served via HTTP, server implemenations SHOULD offer ETag and Last-Modified headers on history documents (see RFC 2616 xxx). Clients SHOULD persist ETag and Last-Modified information and use If-* headers to ease server load on history synchronization." //Stefan From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 19 05:11:22 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Duo8I-0001EQ-89 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 05:11:22 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA23073 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 05:11:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6J948M5084673; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 02:04:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6J948nt084672; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 02:04:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6J947pi084664 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 02:04:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 99604 invoked by uid 17064); 19 Jul 2005 09:04:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.8]) ([83.112.7.80]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 19 Jul 2005 09:04:07 -0000 In-Reply-To: <141BC3A3-3E8B-43BD-A65C-8FFA7F7FE38F@mnot.net> References: <3E6C7917-B853-4DCF-A33E-7B7EDC9677B5@mnot.net> <3BD510EC-6549-4BE4-A962-D571A318FBB4@bblfish.net> <42DBE0ED.7060100@gmail.com> <1f9ad4d4c8a87d7a20f7deb4cbf5479f@greenbytes.de> <141BC3A3-3E8B-43BD-A65C-8FFA7F7FE38F@mnot.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <68295146-6858-483D-9F0B-5AAFDD4E2205@bblfish.net> Cc: Stefan Eissing , Atom WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: Feed History -02 Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:04:02 +0200 To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 18 Jul 2005, at 23:21, Mark Nottingham wrote: > On 18/07/2005, at 2:17 PM, Stefan Eissing wrote: > >> On a more semantic issue: >> >> The described sync algorithm will work. In most scenarios the >> abort condition (e.g. all items on a historical feed are known) >> will also do the job. However this still means that clients need >> to check the first fh:prev document if they know all entries there >> - if my understanding is correct. >> > > This is one of the unanswered questions that I left out of scope. > The consumer can examine the previous archive's URI and decide as > to whether it's seen it or not before, and therefore avoid fetching > it if it already has seen it. However, in this approach, it won't > see changes that are made in the archive (e.g., if a revision -- > even a spelling correction -- is made to an old entry); to do that > it either has to walk back the *entire* archive each time, or the > feed has to publish all changes -- even to old entries -- at the > head of the feed. Clearly the archive feed will work best if archive documents, once completed (containing a given number of entries) never change. Readers of the archive will have a simple way to know when to stop reading: there should never be a need to re-read an archive page - they just never change. The archive provides a history of the feed's evolution. Earlier changes to the resources described by the feed will be found in older archive documents and newer changes in the later ones. One should expect some entries to be referenced in multiple archive feed documents. These will be entries that have been changed over time. Archives *should not* change. I think any librarian will agree with that. > I left it out because it has more to do with questions about entry > deleting and ordering than with recovering state. it's an arbitrary > decision (I had language about this in the original Pace I made), > but it seemed like a good trade-off between complexity and capability. > > Does that make sense, or am I way off-base? > >> Is it worthy to think of something to spare clients and servers >> this lookup? Are the HTTP caching and If-* header mechanisms good >> enough to save network bandwidth? >> >> An alternate stratgey would be to require that fh:prev documents >> never change once created. Then a client can terminate the sync >> once it sees a URI it already knows. And most clients would not do >> more lookups than they are doing now... >> I think this would be the correct strategy. Henry Story From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 19 05:33:57 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuoU8-0007jq-U3 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 05:33:56 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA24728 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 05:33:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6J9O9di091687; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 02:24:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6J9O9Ej091686; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 02:24:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6J9O8wi091679 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 02:24:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 6429 invoked by uid 17064); 19 Jul 2005 09:24:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.8]) ([83.112.7.80]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 19 Jul 2005 09:24:08 -0000 In-Reply-To: <20050718235235.GB24146@klangraum> References: <3E6C7917-B853-4DCF-A33E-7B7EDC9677B5@mnot.net> <3BD510EC-6549-4BE4-A962-D571A318FBB4@bblfish.net> <42DBE0ED.7060100@gmail.com> <1f9ad4d4c8a87d7a20f7deb4cbf5479f@greenbytes.de> <141BC3A3-3E8B-43BD-A65C-8FFA7F7FE38F@mnot.net> <20050718235235.GB24146@klangraum> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <7272B69C-0957-4727-98C8-DB06AAB68125@bblfish.net> Cc: Atom WG From: Henry Story Subject: Re: Feed History -02 Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:24:04 +0200 To: "A. Pagaltzis" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6J9O8wi091680 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id FAA24728 On 19 Jul 2005, at 01:52, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > > * Mark Nottingham [2005-07-18 23:30]: > >> This is one of the unanswered questions that I left out of >> scope. The consumer can examine the previous archive's URI and >> decide as to whether it's seen it or not before, and therefore >> avoid fetching it if it already has seen it. However, in this >> approach, it won't see changes that are made in the archive >> (e.g., if a revision -- even a spelling correction -- is made >> to an old entry); to do that it either has to walk back the >> *entire* archive each time, or the feed has to publish all >> changes -- even to old entries -- at the head of the feed. >> > > These are the kinds of things my =93hub archive feed=94 situation was > supposed to address. Because the links are all in one place, the > consumer only has to suck down one document in order to be > informed of all archive feeds and being able to decide which ones > he wants to re-/get. I wonder if what you are trying to describe here is not a different concept altogether from an archive feed. I guess that both are =20 completely orthogonal concepts. Feeds tend to specialize in a number of resources they track. What would also be useful would be a document that described the resources =20 tracked by a feed. This would be closer to a directory listing. It would help =20 point to the current state of the resources tracked by the feed. So when one subscribed to a feed one could then quickly get a list of =20 all the resources that the feed had responsibility for. As this could be =20 quite large some form of navigation may be necessary. Perhaps this is the type of =20 thing that the protocol group is working on. Henry Story > Regards, > --=20 > Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 19 06:31:31 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DupNr-0007Fa-Ei for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 06:31:31 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA28880 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 06:31:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6JANUlg013496; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 03:23:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6JANUbP013495; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 03:23:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-vbr5.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr5.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6JANS7K013473 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 03:23:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sjoerd@w3future.com) Received: from [10.0.0.2] (w3future.xs4all.nl [213.84.155.207]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp-vbr5.xs4all.nl (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j6JANKkG088637; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:23:21 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from sjoerd@w3future.com) Message-ID: <42DCD495.1040405@w3future.com> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:23:17 +0200 From: Sjoerd Visscher User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "A. Pagaltzis" CC: atom-syntax WG Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies References: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> <42DA7631.50606@intertwingly.net> <42DB76EA.4000509@w3future.com> <20050718163121.GA21135@klangraum> <42DC3915.1030405@w3future.com> <20050718234451.GA24146@klangraum> <713080605.20050719071901@djpowell.net> <20050719082850.GA27537@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20050719082850.GA27537@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id GAA28880 A. Pagaltzis wrote: > It makes me wonder whether the person who wrote the example was=20 > unaware of the consequences of the same-document reference=20 > specifications in the URI RFC. Surely, the xml:base WG must have=20 > noticed this issue and discussed it? I wonder how many people are aware of it. I wonder if we managed to convince any readers on the atom list at all. Tim Bray hasn't responded yet, so I guess he is still in doubt. I found out about it through Mozilla Bug 241981. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3D241981 Mozilla had implemented that the http content-location header sets the base href. But as Mozilla has no same-document reference support, it would navigate to the content-location document when you clicked on an internal link. The solution was to revert content-location support, and noting that it was broken-by-design. I found this hard to believe, and tried figuring out what was really supposed to happen. > Notice that xml:base describes **a base URI**. The xml:base TR does > not define what a base URI is. It=E2=80=99s RFC3986 (and originally, RF= C2396) > which does, while describing just what an URI is, to begin with. The > same-document reference stanza in the URI RFCs is clear evidence that > in the spirit of the spec, =E2=80=9Cbase URI=E2=80=9D means =E2=80=9Cth= e source URI of the > content,=E2=80=9D not =E2=80=9Cthe prefix I wish to apply to relative r= eferences.=E2=80=9D RFC2396 is not the original spec, HTML 2 is. Later versions of HTML=20 screwed up. I wrote up the history of fragment identifiers here: http://w3future.com/weblog/2005/01/ > At first, I thought the RFC-specified same-document reference stanza > made no sense. But then I realized it is perfectly fine and > absolutely desirable for the case where the =E2=80=9Cbase URI embedded = in > content=E2=80=9D applies to the entire document. >=20 > It is the xml:base TR which is at odds with this; applying=20 > same-document reference behaviour to fragments of an aggregate=20 > document is non-sensical. The more I think about it, the more it=20 > seems like this interaction is Broken As Designed. xml:base should > not have adopted the =E2=80=9Cbase URI=E2=80=9D term =E2=80=93 basicall= y, it appears that the > very attribute name itself is a misnomer. I don't find applying same-document reference behaviour to fragments of an aggregate document non-sensical. If I XInclude a piece of XHTML that has same-document references in it, I still want them to be same-document references, and they should not link back to the original file. --=20 Sjoerd Visscher http://w3future.com/weblog/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 19 14:37:58 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Duwyc-0003Qz-8t for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:37:58 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA21559 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:37:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6JITmk2021709; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:29:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6JITmHW021708; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:29:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6JITl4G021695 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:29:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <20050719182936015001u7dve>; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:29:42 +0000 Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:29:35 -0600 Subject: Re: Feed History -02 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <0E99C10E-F883-11D9-8BFB-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, July 18, 2005, at 01:59 AM, Stefan Eissing wrote: > Ch 3. fh:stateful seems to be only needed for a newborn stateful feed. > As an alternative one could drop fh:stateful and define that an empty > fh:prev (refering to itself) is the last document in a stateful feed. > That would eliminate the cases of wrong mixes of fh:stateful and > fh:prev. > The problem is that an empty @href in fh:prev is subject to xml:base processing, and who knows what the current xml:base is going to be when you get to it. Is there a way to explicitly make xml:base undefined? If I'm not mistaken xml:base="" doesn't do it--it just adds nothing to the existing xml:base. If there is a way, you could say , but otherwise, using an empty @href is probably overloading the wrong attribute. A different @rel value like "fh:noprev" (with an empty link, since it doesn't matter what it actually points to) might be a step up, but using any kind of link to indicate the lack of a link is a little odd. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 19 15:11:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuxUk-0006QE-LS for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:11:10 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA23980 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:11:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6JJ1LkM024282; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:01:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6JJ1LDI024281; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:01:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6JJ1KJb024264 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:01:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <2005071919011301300aota4e>; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:01:13 +0000 Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:01:11 -0600 Subject: Re: Feed History -02 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <0E99C10E-F883-11D9-8BFB-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Message-Id: <78F9DBA4-F887-11D9-8BFB-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, July 19, 2005, at 12:29 PM, Antone Roundy wrote: > On Monday, July 18, 2005, at 01:59 AM, Stefan Eissing wrote: >> Ch 3. fh:stateful seems to be only needed for a newborn stateful >> feed. As an alternative one could drop fh:stateful and define that an >> empty fh:prev (refering to itself) is the last document in a stateful >> feed. That would eliminate the cases of wrong mixes of fh:stateful >> and fh:prev. >> > The problem is that an empty @href in fh:prev is subject to xml:base > processing, and who knows what the current xml:base is going to be > when you get to it. Is there a way to explicitly make xml:base > undefined? If I'm not mistaken xml:base="" doesn't do it--it just > adds nothing to the existing xml:base. If there is a way, you could > say , but otherwise, using an empty @href is probably > overloading the wrong attribute. A different @rel value like > "fh:noprev" (with an empty link, since it doesn't matter what it > actually points to) might be a step up, but using any kind of link to > indicate the lack of a link is a little odd. > Yikes, I should have caught up on the xml:base thread first! Looks like the jury's out, or at least hung, on this issue. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 19 15:49:54 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Duy6D-0002SB-RY for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:49:54 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA27848 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:49:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6JJiNvp027994; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:44:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6JJiNX3027993; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:44:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mailhost.netweaver.net (mailhost.netweaver.net [213.160.118.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6JJiHMN027974 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:44:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davep@dpawson.co.uk) Received: (qmail 23872 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2005 19:44:15 -0000 Received: from dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk (HELO ?192.168.2.7?) (davep@dpawson.co.uk@81.6.251.105) by 0 with SMTP; 19 Jul 2005 19:44:15 -0000 Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies From: Dave Pawson Reply-To: davep@dpawson.co.uk To: "A. Pagaltzis" Cc: atom-syntax WG In-Reply-To: <20050718163121.GA21135@klangraum> References: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> <42DA7631.50606@intertwingly.net> <42DB76EA.4000509@w3future.com> <20050718163121.GA21135@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:44:15 +0100 Message-Id: <1121802255.3407.41.camel@marge> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.2 (2.2.2-5) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If anyone comes to a definitive conclusion on this, would they post to the list, or a website please. TIA -- Regards, Dave Pawson XSLT + Docbook FAQ http://www.dpawson.co.uk From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 19 16:04:11 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuyK2-00086L-Lr for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:04:11 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA02094 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:04:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6JJxGlr029011; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:59:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6JJxGT3029010; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:59:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6JJxEBP029004 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:59:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6JJxEvU023839 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:59:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IJW00M7D4UP8Q@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:59:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.102.100] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IJW006OA4UPS7@mail.sun.net> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:59:13 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:59:15 -0700 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies In-reply-to: <42DCD495.1040405@w3future.com> To: Sjoerd Visscher Cc: "A. Pagaltzis" , atom-syntax WG Message-id: <814B50B5-74E2-4E22-96AE-BE2DF5A2991B@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> <42DA7631.50606@intertwingly.net> <42DB76EA.4000509@w3future.com> <20050718163121.GA21135@klangraum> <42DC3915.1030405@w3future.com> <20050718234451.GA24146@klangraum> <713080605.20050719071901@djpowell.net> <20050719082850.GA27537@klangraum> <42DCD495.1040405@w3future.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Jul 19, 2005, at 3:23 AM, Sjoerd Visscher wrote: > > A. Pagaltzis wrote: > >> It makes me wonder whether the person who wrote the example was >> unaware of the consequences of the same-document reference >> specifications in the URI RFC. Surely, the xml:base WG must have >> noticed this issue and discussed it? >> > > I wonder how many people are aware of it. I wonder if we managed to > convince any readers on the atom list at all. Tim Bray hasn't > responded > yet, so I guess he is still in doubt. Yeah, still thinking, haven't had time enough to think about all this correspondence. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 19 16:39:37 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DuysL-0005wM-4l for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:39:37 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA18266 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:39:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6JKVrMW032456; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:31:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6JKVrMb032455; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:31:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6JKVr3O032443 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:31:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2005071920314701300rj9dge>; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:31:47 +0000 Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:31:45 -0600 Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <20050719082850.GA27537@klangraum> Message-Id: <1FF9495B-F894-11D9-8BFB-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6JKVr3O032450 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id QAA18266 Reluctantly, I must admit that I can't find anything in RFC 3986 or the=20 xml:base spec to convince me that the "same document reference" rule=20 doesn't cause the problems for Tim's feed that have been asserted. The=20 existence of the text regarding same document references, and the fact=20 that that text points explicitly to section 5.1, where the method of=20 determining the base URI (included embedded in content) is defined,=20 leads me to conclude that it is intended that dereferencing a base URI=20 would result in retrieval of the same data as exists within the scope=20 of the setting of the base URI, and that base URIs are not intended as=20 prefixes for convenience. On Tuesday, July 19, 2005, at 02:28 AM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > * David Powell [2005-07-19 08:25]: >> Why does xml:base allow for relative base URIs and stacking >> then? If xml:base can only describe the actual source URI of >> the document, then these features don't make sense. I think it does...or at least could. Consider the following pseudo-XML=20 (element names have no significance--line numbers are for convenient=20 reference below): 1 2 Welcome to example.com 3 4 Here's what's new on example.com 5 foo 6 bar 7 8 9 Here's what's popular on example.com 10 qwerty 11 asdf 12 13 Here's the popular Atom stuff 14 link 15 16 17 If you dereference http://www.example.com/, you get this whole=20 document, or at least lines 2-16. If you dereference=20 http://www.example.com/new/, you get a document containing lines 3-7,=20 or at least 4-6 (the "what's new" page). If you dereference=20 http://www.example.com/popular/, you get lnes 8-16, or at least lines=20 9-15 (the "what's popular" page). If you dereference=20 http://www.example.com/popular/atom/, you get lines 12-15, or at least=20 13-14 (the "what's popular with Atom" page). The entire document is a composite of the documents at=20 http://www.example.com/new/ and http://www.example.com/popular/, which=20 in turn is a composite of the document at=20 http://www.example.com/popular/atom/ along with some additional data=20 that originates at http://www.example.com/popular/. xml:base enables=20 this compositing without requiring adjustment of the relative URIs. It=20 makes it look to the consumer as if it had gotten different parts of=20 the document from different places, so that their relative URIs can be=20 resolved correctly. >> The example in the xml:base spec [1] uses a relative URI in the >> element, after defining an >> absolute URI in at >> the top of the document. >> >> [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlbase/#syntax > > That example says: the content of the root element can be found > in the resource at , and the content > of the olist tag can be found in the resource at > . xml:base is quite apparently > being used as =93a prefix for calculating relative URIs=94 instead of > =93the source URI for the material found inside this tag.=94 As you can see above, I reached the opposite conclusion. > Now, xml:base appears to try to address the situation where an > aggregate document may contain fragments from many sources, and > each of which thus has its own base URI. But the devilish detail > is that RFC-specified behaviour means that if a useragent were to > find a link to somewhere inside the > example document except inside the olist tag, or a link to > inside the olist tag, it may not > retrieve that URL =96 instead it would have to consider the XML > document itself to be the document found at the respective URL. ... > It is the xml:base TR which is at odds with this; applying > same-document reference behaviour to fragments of an aggregate > document is non-sensical. The problem lies not in applying same-document reference behavior, but=20 in copying EXCERPTS from source documents that have links to fragments=20 that aren't part of the excerpt. The same-document reference behavior=20 is desirable if both the link and the fragment it links to are copied=20 into the destination document. But there is no way to link to=20 non-excerpted fragments. The URI spec would have to say that if the=20 fragment isn't found in the current document, you can fetch the base=20 URI to see if it exists there (it could even say that you can only do=20 this if the current base URI was embedded in the content). If the=20 fragment doesn't at the base URI, it's a broken link. A hackish solution to the "Tim's Feed Conundrum" would be to set=20 xml:base not to 'http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/', but to=20 'http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/foo', where "foo" doesn't actually exist,=20 but is just used to ensure that relative references don't end up being=20 identical to the base URI. Then, instead of (which=20 would be a same-document reference...I think I was wrong in the other=20 thread), you could say . The other solution I can think of would be for the Atom spec to say=20 that the same-document reference rule from the URI spec does not apply=20 to the atom:link element. But that's kinda lame too--it would=20 basically mean that Atom uses base URIs as prefixes for convenience,=20 rather than to rectify the base URI of data taken from somewhere else,=20 which seems to me to be their intent. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 19 18:33:12 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dv0eG-0006t8-MQ for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:33:12 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA08136 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:33:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6JMOvJ5043233; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:24:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6JMOvH4043232; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:24:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6JMOtfV043213 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:24:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 19 Jul 2005 22:24:42 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-250-216.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.250.216] by mail.gmx.net (mp011) with SMTP; 20 Jul 2005 00:24:42 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:29:07 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax WG Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies Message-ID: <20050719222907.GA29664@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax WG References: <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> <42DA7631.50606@intertwingly.net> <42DB76EA.4000509@w3future.com> <20050718163121.GA21135@klangraum> <42DC3915.1030405@w3future.com> <20050718234451.GA24146@klangraum> <713080605.20050719071901@djpowell.net> <20050719082850.GA27537@klangraum> <42DCD495.1040405@w3future.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1FF9495B-F894-11D9-8BFB-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <42DCD495.1040405@w3future.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id SAA08136 * Sjoerd Visscher [2005-07-19 12:35]: > I don't find applying same-document reference behaviour to > fragments of an aggregate document non-sensical. If I XInclude > a piece of XHTML that has same-document references in it, I > still want them to be same-document references, and they should > not link back to the original file. It is and isn=E2=80=99t. I thought about it more, and found that there are cases where it is non-sensical and cases where it=E2=80=99s desirable, but I couldn=E2=80=99t verbalize the difference. Antone filled the gap in his reply below. I am not so negative about the xml:base TR anymore; both the TR as well as the RFC are to blame, to an extent, but it=E2=80=99s neither=E2= =80=99s fault. * Antone Roundy [2005-07-19 22:45]: > >That example says: the content of the root element can be > >found in the resource at , and the > >content of the olist tag can be found in the resource at > >. xml:base is quite apparently > >being used as =E2=80=9Ca prefix for calculating relative URIs=E2=80=9D= instead > >of =E2=80=9Cthe source URI for the material found inside this tag.=E2=80= =9D > As you can see above, I reached the opposite conclusion. I=E2=80=99m not sure if I didn=E2=80=99t explain myself well (likely), or= you misunderstood my (very brief) explanation, but I don=E2=80=99t think we=E2=80=99re in disagreement. Everything you=E2=80=99ve said about your = own example document is exactly in line with my thinking. > The problem lies not in applying same-document reference > behavior, but in copying EXCERPTS from source documents that > have links to fragments that aren't part of the excerpt. The > same-document reference behavior is desirable if both the link > and the fragment it links to are copied into the destination > document. Yes!! Exactly. Thank you for finding that disctinction. It is the point I could feel and sense as I thought about this issue more, but couldn=E2=80=99t quite pin down. > But there is no way to link to non-excerpted fragments. The > URI spec would have to say that if the fragment isn't found in > the current document, you can fetch the base URI to see if it > exists there (it could even say that you can only do this if > the current base URI was embedded in the content). If the > fragment doesn't at the base URI, it's a broken link. Indeed, that would be the correct fix. > A hackish solution to the "Tim's Feed Conundrum" would be to > set xml:base not to 'http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/', but to > 'http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/foo', where "foo" doesn't > actually exist, but is just used to ensure that relative > references don't end up being identical to the base URI. Then, > instead of (which would be a same-document > reference...I think I was wrong in the other thread), you could > say . That=E2=80=99s hackish, but almost correct. Now substitute in that base URI for and you get the real base URI for the Atom document. Further, then produces a correct alternate link, and is then a correct self-link. That is exactly what I proposed a few messages up in this thread. :-) Although at the time, I hadn=E2=80=99t cleared my thinking enough, so proposed the wrong xml:base for individual atom:entry tags, which was corrected by Sjoerd. > The other solution I can think of would be for the Atom spec to > say that the same-document reference rule from the URI spec > does not apply to the atom:link element. But that's kinda lame > too--it would basically mean that Atom uses base URIs as > prefixes for convenience, rather than to rectify the base URI > of data taken from somewhere else, which seems to me to be > their intent. Yes, I proposed the same. :-) Clearly, we are on the same page. And yes, it would be lame. Not an undue burden on implementors, as I also already argued, but conceptually it is lame indeed. Finally, I share the dismay you expressed at the beginning of your mail. This kind of sucks=E2=80=A6 Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 19 19:15:41 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dv1JM-0005JC-Fg for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:15:40 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA12186 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:15:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6JNABjS046614; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:10:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6JNAB0W046611; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:10:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6JNAAOR046591 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:10:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6JN9hnh004857 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:09:54 +0100 (BST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) In-Reply-To: <20050719082850.GA27537@klangraum> References: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> <42DA7631.50606@intertwingly.net> <42DB76EA.4000509@w3future.com> <20050718163121.GA21135@klangraum> <42DC3915.1030405@w3future.com> <20050718234451.GA24146@klangraum> <713080605.20050719071901@djpowell.net> <20050719082850.GA27537@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Graham Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:09:45 +0100 To: atom-syntax X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 19 Jul 2005, at 9:28 am, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > Now, xml:base appears to try to address the situation where an > aggregate document may contain fragments from many sources, and > each of which thus has its own base URI. While I agree this interpretation is potentially correct, it moves us pretty far away from the idea of a self-contained document with a singular embedded base URI, which is all that RFC2396 ever discusses. Whether the idea "same-document" references still make sense when the document isn't a document but an XML element buried deep inside an actual document. Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 19 19:30:53 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dv1Y5-0004WL-GS for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:30:53 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA13307 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:30:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6JNOOOM047772; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:24:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6JNOOaA047771; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:24:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.199]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6JNONo3047763 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:24:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i35so1300020wra for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:24:17 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=rWw7yTv2ppeENJHPhUhsnnonx6bay+iMdbUHadWoljyEwhxCW9VXrKUWbHCX02eLAvS3wl9tkTLxX3urfAI8xko+3rhfB+Cp+Sh4jjloXlVphxlHUKW0OUyHTLHM0gZClRxyjGSj1dXb0/GhN/ZYbmZ+ST9LWL+MKDvZvSXj/Pg= Received: by 10.54.38.54 with SMTP id l54mr920658wrl; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:23:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 38sm7023310wrl.2005.07.19.16.23.06; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:23:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42DD8B57.6040901@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:23:03 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax Subject: FYI: draft-snell-atompub-feed-index-00.txt References: <42D96DF9.7030700@intertwingly.net> <32485624-83C3-4B0F-9EE8-130706A51B08@Sun.COM> <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> <42DA7631.50606@intertwingly.net> <42DB76EA.4000509@w3future.com> <20050718163121.GA21135@klangraum> <42DC3915.1030405@w3future.com> <20050718234451.GA24146@klangraum> <713080605.20050719071901@djpowell.net> <20050719082850.GA27537@klangraum> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI... I've submitted an I-D for my Feed Index extension. Not sure when it will be published. I uploaded a copy here: http://www.snellspace.com/public/draft-snell-atompub-feed-index-00.txt - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 19 19:35:18 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dv1cM-0006tD-0K for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:35:18 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA13662 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:35:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6JNUQiT048201; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:30:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6JNUQPt048200; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:30:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6JNUP2K048194 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:30:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 19 Jul 2005 23:30:16 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-250-216.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.250.216] by mail.gmx.net (mp015) with SMTP; 20 Jul 2005 01:30:16 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:34:42 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies Message-ID: <20050719233442.GA29654@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax References: <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> <42DA7631.50606@intertwingly.net> <42DB76EA.4000509@w3future.com> <20050718163121.GA21135@klangraum> <42DC3915.1030405@w3future.com> <20050718234451.GA24146@klangraum> <713080605.20050719071901@djpowell.net> <20050719082850.GA27537@klangraum> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id TAA13662 * Graham [2005-07-20 01:20]: > While I agree this interpretation is potentially correct, it > moves us pretty far away from the idea of a self-contained > document with a singular embedded base URI, which is all that > RFC2396 ever discusses. That is pretty much what I said; yes. The =E2=80=9Cbase URI embedded in content=E2=80=9D which the RFC describes is really one which has to apply to the entire document. > Whether the idea "same-document" references still make sense > when the document isn't a document but an XML element buried > deep inside an actual document. It partially does =E2=80=93 see Sjoerd=E2=80=99s and Antone=E2=80=99s rep= lies and my reply to them. But the language in RFC3986 does not consider this use case, and the language in the xml:base TR does not address same-document references at all. So there are things possible in the scope of the xml:base TR, for whose behaviour it defers to the RFC, which only considers a small subset of the possible use cases. So we have a mismatched layering of specs, for a certain class of use cases=E2=80=A6 ugh. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 20 01:15:02 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dv6v8-0006xX-Ha for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:15:02 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA22292 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:15:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6K58u87077089; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:08:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6K58usO077088; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:08:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web42206.mail.yahoo.com (web42206.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6K58uRH077050 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:08:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jfcst24_public@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 44611 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Jul 2005 05:08:51 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=J5o+Fj0M2LPrB1Za2NzaAXDss0EPdNJkHwBlxyVt9Cw3pp0d5/g7EjT5bOjqJ1Fi4StepnmHN2m9Fp59YgijKLhX2/rZV6+EmsPlZWXjaw1WykqG0NQf6VYuGKImWbgUYm9TF4V+irb6LeJDGk9CvK7sjNb9yQ55dULGDnuutXc= ; Message-ID: <20050720050851.44609.qmail@web42206.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.155.75.65] by web42206.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:08:51 PDT Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:08:51 -0700 (PDT) From: James Cerra Subject: Notes on the latest draft. To: atom-syntax@imc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I took some notes while reading the specification. Not all of them are good notes, and I was cranky while writing them. Still, they do have some issues or slightly vague points about the spec from my view point. Section 1.2: ------------ > http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom I guess consistancy is not a requirement of the Atom spec. By convention, this should be all lowercase. Existing software for Atom 0.3 has to be recoded for Atom 1.0, so this change has no real cost. True, URI references shouldn't change; however, that only applies to stable resources. Atom is explicitly unstable until standardized. Section 2: ---------- > Any element defined by this specification MAY have an xml:base attribute. > When xml:base is used in an Atom Document, it serves the function described > in section 5.1.1 of RFC 3986, establishing the base URI (or IRI) for > resolving any relative references found within the effective scope of the > xml:base attribute. xml:base is a broken specification. At the simplest, it's just a lame attempt at abbreviating strings. However, it solves that problem in the worst possible manner. As the RDF serializations show, what is needed is a name/value pair simular to entities or xml namespaces. In fact, the general solution would combine all three. This is a case where, in an attempt to simplify problems by seggerating them into domains (i.e. namespaces, URI abbreviations, SGML "compatibility", and others), the solutions actually complicate things to the point of absurdity! Of course, it is too late to fix for Atom 1.0, XML 1.0, and others. :-( Section 3.1.1.2: ---------------- HTML has many entities predefined. If you use HTML content, are those entities allowed (after being escaped, of course)? That would make it really really hard to normalize to text or XML without doctype processing. I feel that HTML entities other than numeric references, &gt;, &lt;, &amp;, &apos;, and &quote; should be depreciated in HTML content. Section 3.1.1.3: ---------------- Atom should explicitly endorse XHTML over HTML as perferred form of content. HTML is just really hard to process compared with XML. Also, how does Atom interact with HTML 5, XHTML 2, or future versions of the specs? I still say that version or doctype attributes should be allowed to solve disambiguities and allow compatibility with future versions of those specs. Public/System identifiers can still be used to identify type without validating it - that is why RDF and namespaces work at all. Section 3.2.2: -------------- > The "atom:uri" element's content conveys an IRI associated with the person. > Person constructs MAY contain an atom:uri element, but MUST NOT contain more > than one. The content of atom:uri in a Person construct MUST be an IRI > reference. There is no reason *not* to change this to "atom:id". It is lazy and dangerous to have an element lie about the type of its content. Furthermore, the whole point of atom:uri is the same as atom:id - to identify the thing they refer to (author or entry) - and their content is likewise identical. Section 3.2.3: -------------- > The "atom:email" element's content conveys an e-mail address associated with > the person. Person constructs MAY contain an atom:email element, but MUST > NOT contain more than one. Its content MUST conform to the "addr-spec" > production in RFC 2822. OTOH, is there a reason that atom:uri (which should be atom:indentifier) and atom:email are not attributes of a person construct? It is easier to process with CSS, but not harder for other processes, if they are attributes. Especially if white space is not significant and should be normalized. Also, by making them attributes you get the XML processor to enforce the cardinality of these constructs. Section 4.1.1: -------------- > * atom:feed elements SHOULD contain one atom:link element with a rel > attribute value of "self". This is the preferred URI for retrieving Atom > Feed Documents representing this Atom feed. There is a mistake. atom:link indentifies things using an IRI not an URI. Section 4.1.3.3: ---------------- Clarify this point: This section applies to atom:content when the src attribute is not present. If it is present, then the content of the external file must be valid "whatever" depending on mime type you use (of course). But it could be valid HTML with a doctype or valid XHTML with a root "html" element. Section 4.2.5: -------------- No way of defining the perfered media type of the icon as with links? Section 4.2.6: -------------- How does this interact with xml:base? Are relative atom:ids allowed? How are they compared? Are entries information resources? If so, should something retrievable be placed at their URI? Section 4.2.8: -------------- No way of defining the perfered media type of the logo (or icon) as with links? Section 7: ---------- > Fragment identifiers: As specified for "application/xml" in RFC 3023, > section 5. Based on the language in that section..... Does this mean that only XPointer fragment identifiers are defined for Atom documents? I'm confused. What would be the meaning of a fragment like: http://example.com/feed#frag ??? -- Jimmy Cerra https://nemo.dev.java.net ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 20 01:37:33 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dv7Gt-0001Kl-Cb for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:37:33 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA24746 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:37:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6K5VFNr089019; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:31:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6K5VF02089018; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:31:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.11]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6K5VElv088989 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:31:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] ([203.30.247.18] verified) by ironclad.net.au (Stalker SMTP Server 1.7) with ESMTP id S.0000656797 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:31:14 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:31:09 +1000 Subject: Re: Notes on the latest draft - atom:author/atom:uri From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20050720050851.44609.qmail@web42206.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 20/7/05 3:08 PM, "James Cerra" wrote: > Section 3.2.2: > -------------- >> The "atom:uri" element's content conveys an IRI associated with the person. >> Person constructs MAY contain an atom:uri element, but MUST NOT contain more >> than one. The content of atom:uri in a Person construct MUST be an IRI >> reference. > > There is no reason *not* to change this to "atom:id". It is lazy and > dangerous to have an element lie about the type of its content. Furthermore, > the whole point of atom:uri is the same as atom:id - to identify the thing > they refer to (author or entry) - and their content is likewise identical. Are publishers allow to change the value of atom:id for a given person at any time, like they are allowed to do with atom:uri? Is dereferenceability important, or is immutability important? e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 20 03:29:17 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dv913-0004gV-10 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:29:17 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA11629 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6K7NmTW036161; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:23:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6K7Nmt7036160; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:23:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6K7Nlaa036105 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:23:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 20 Jul 2005 07:23:28 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-250-216.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.250.216] by mail.gmx.net (mp021) with SMTP; 20 Jul 2005 09:23:28 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:28:23 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Notes on the latest draft. Message-ID: <20050720072823.GA1202@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <20050720050851.44609.qmail@web42206.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050720050851.44609.qmail@web42206.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id DAA11629 * James Cerra [2005-07-20 07:20]: > I took some notes while reading the specification. Not all of > them are good notes, and I was cranky while writing them. Below some comments on your notes; any snipped notes can be assumed to be ones where I agree with your assessment. > Section 1.2: > ------------ > > http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom >=20 > I guess consistancy is not a requirement of the Atom spec. By > convention, this should be all lowercase. Existing software > for Atom 0.3 has to be recoded for Atom 1.0, so this change has > no real cost. It does =E2=80=93 in terms of time, for putting another draft through the process. > Section 2: > ---------- > > Any element defined by this specification MAY have an > > xml:base attribute. When xml:base is used in an Atom > > Document, it serves the function described in section 5.1.1 > > of RFC 3986, establishing the base URI (or IRI) for resolving > > any relative references found within the effective scope of > > the xml:base attribute. >=20 > xml:base is a broken specification. Yes, we are currently having a long discussion about this. > Section 3.2.2: > -------------- > > The "atom:uri" element's content conveys an IRI associated > > with the person. Person constructs MAY contain an atom:uri > > element, but MUST NOT contain more than one. The content of > > atom:uri in a Person construct MUST be an IRI reference. >=20 > There is no reason *not* to change this to "atom:id". It is > lazy and dangerous to have an element lie about the type of its > content. Furthermore, the whole point of atom:uri is the same > as atom:id - to identify the thing they refer to (author or > entry) - and their content is likewise identical. This is really a homepage link. It serves a totally different purpose from atom:id, and using the same term for the two would be dangerous. > Section 4.2.6: > -------------- > How does this interact with xml:base? Are relative atom:ids > allowed? How are they compared? Are entries information > resources? If so, should something retrievable be placed at > their URI? Quoting from the spec: Its content MUST be an IRI, as defined by [RFC3987]. Note that the definition of "IRI" excludes relative references. Though the IRI might use a dereferencable scheme, Atom Processors MUST NOT assume it can be dereferenced. In other words, relative IRIs are forbidden and thus no interaction with xml:base is possible either. atom:id contains what should be considered an opaque string that can be compared with other opaque atom:id strings simply by comparing character-by-character. The language in the spec should make that reasonably clear. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 20 03:31:37 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dv93J-00064O-51 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:31:37 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA12005 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:31:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6K7RTAn037839; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:27:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6K7RTAA037838; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:27:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-vbr6.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr6.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.26]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6K7RRDk037818 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:27:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sjoerd@w3future.com) Received: from [10.0.0.2] (w3future.xs4all.nl [213.84.155.207]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp-vbr6.xs4all.nl (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j6K7RJia030149; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:27:20 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from sjoerd@w3future.com) Message-ID: <42DDFCD0.3010804@w3future.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:27:12 +0200 From: Sjoerd Visscher User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "A. Pagaltzis" CC: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Atom 1.0 xml:base/URI funnies References: <42DA6CFC.4020108@w3future.com> <42DA7631.50606@intertwingly.net> <42DB76EA.4000509@w3future.com> <20050718163121.GA21135@klangraum> <42DC3915.1030405@w3future.com> <20050718234451.GA24146@klangraum> <713080605.20050719071901@djpowell.net> <20050719082850.GA27537@klangraum> <20050719233442.GA29654@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20050719233442.GA29654@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id DAA12005 A. Pagaltzis wrote: > But the language in RFC3986 does not consider this use case, and > the language in the xml:base TR does not address same-document > references at all. So there are things possible in the scope of > the xml:base TR, for whose behaviour it defers to the RFC, which > only considers a small subset of the possible use cases. So we > have a mismatched layering of specs, for a certain class of use > cases=E2=80=A6 ugh. I think Roy T. Fielding did consider all this, given the example in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2004Jan/0012 Also interesting is this quote from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2004Jan/0009 "That is, the correct behavior is to parse the reference into a URI before deciding whether or not it is a same-document reference. The effect of this change, when implemented, has no impact on the protocol *except* when a person is deliberately abusing the base URI by assigning it an unrelated URI for the purpose of creating an artificial shorthand notation for external references. It should be no surprise that such usage will not be supported by the standard, since it never worked with the majority of deployed implementations." --=20 Sjoerd Visscher http://w3future.com/weblog/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 20 05:02:03 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DvASp-0001Hu-M1 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 05:02:03 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA22416 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 05:02:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6K8qJx8069345; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:52:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6K8qJxs069344; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:52:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6K8qIxx069306 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:52:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6K8pQ7Y028521 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:51:31 +0100 (BST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) In-Reply-To: <20050720050851.44609.qmail@web42206.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050720050851.44609.qmail@web42206.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <2DAFD563-70BB-4FA6-B657-A3F878BDCA53@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Graham Subject: Re: Notes on the latest draft. Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:51:24 +0100 To: atom-syntax X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 20 Jul 2005, at 6:08 am, James Cerra wrote: > I feel that HTML entities other than numeric references, &gt;, > &lt;, > &amp;, &apos;, and &quote; should be depreciated in HTML > content. Disagree. All it needs is a simple look-up table in the HTML parser. > Atom should explicitly endorse XHTML over HTML as perferred form of > content. HTML is just really hard to process compared with XML. If you say so. > There is no reason *not* to change this to "atom:id". It is lazy and > dangerous to have an element lie about the type of its content. > Furthermore, > the whole point of atom:uri is the same as atom:id - to identify > the thing > they refer to (author or entry) - and their content is likewise > identical. There is no reason to think that it is either unique to an author or will be the same for every reference to a particular author. It's a useless identifier. > OTOH, is there a reason that atom:uri (which should be > atom:indentifier) and > atom:email are not attributes of a person construct? To allow easier, consistent extension. Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 20 11:17:44 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DvGKO-0007Rt-7i for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:17:44 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA29742 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:17:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6KFA15Z084432; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:10:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6KFA1tG084431; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:10:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web42202.mail.yahoo.com (web42202.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.203]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6KF9vdA084385 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:09:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jfcst24_public@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 65778 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Jul 2005 15:09:42 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Gjxjr9v8jc94QC0TGVdZzoacqayZR63gOysrZCviEtvsrr9aQmCKLm/1DzYTQA9p2FaNn0Qfjtd9Y0zfyGUKqU2Y76iDh5wm6tmDygO5owOY+PL808cyWRrvjI5HZB7Ay/SaxqAmSZbyG2s/jWpJu1xzUaJ3d2fu/FlfnARnzO0= ; Message-ID: <20050720150942.65776.qmail@web42202.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.155.75.65] by web42202.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:09:42 PDT Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:09:42 -0700 (PDT) From: James Cerra Subject: Re: Notes on the latest draft - atom:author/atom:uri To: Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit e, > > Section 3.2.2: > > -------------- > >> The "atom:uri" element's content conveys an IRI associated with the > >> person. Person constructs MAY contain an atom:uri element, but MUST > >> NOT contain more than one. The content of atom:uri in a Person > >> construct MUST be an IRI reference. > > > > There is no reason *not* to change this to "atom:id". It is lazy and > > dangerous to have an element lie about the type of its content. > > Furthermore, the whole point of atom:uri is the same as atom:id - to > > identify the thing they refer to (author or entry) - and their content is > > likewise identical. > > Are publishers allow to change the value of atom:id for a given person at > any time, like they are allowed to do with atom:uri? > > Is dereferenceability important, or is immutability important? I think publishers should be allowed to chenge the atom:id of a person for future feeds/entries as long as past feeds/entries still respect the old atom:id. That is, the atom:id is permanent, but a person can have many permanent atom:ids. That's one reason for the old-homepage property in DOAP [1]. [1] http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-osproj2/#h2 -- Jimmy Cerra https://nemo.dev.java.net ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 20 13:52:03 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DvIjj-0003bP-DQ for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:52:03 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA15373 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:52:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6KHiMvI097899; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:44:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6KHiMhX097898; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:44:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf00.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.67]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6KHiK0H097883 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:44:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.5.66.70]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 943F01A5736; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:44:14 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <42DE8D72.7090205@cegetel.net> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:44:18 +0200 From: Thomas Broyer User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0+ (Windows/20050531) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-01.txt X-Priority: 3)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This mail has been around in my drafts folder for about 10 days, but here it is... I'm not sure what my position is wrt what I wrote below... Mark Nottingham wrote: > > On 04/07/2005, at 6:18 PM, Thomas Broyer wrote: >> With the -01 draft (it might have been the same within the -00 one >> too), one can't reuse the process to link to archives of "Top >> Twenty Records" or "Most Popular Items" (e.g. a monthly "Top Twenty >> Records" linking to the previous-month "Top"), because of the "a >> subscription document whose fh:stateful element contains "false" >> MUST NOT contain a fh:prev element". >> Why not just stating that if fh:stateful is false then the "prev"- >> linked archive feed doesn't not contain a subset of the previous >> entries but rather does contain the previous state of the >> subscription feed. I.e. the meaning of the fh:prev "link" depends on >> the value of fh:stateful. > > That's interesting, but it somewhat changes the semantics of "prev"; > it goes from "where you can find previous entries in a logical feed" > to "where you can find an older archive of entries." While these are > often the same thing, it might not always be the case; i.e., someone > might want to publish a non-time-based feed. > > So, I'm nervous about having two different semantics for one element, > depending upon its context of use. I fully understand (that's actually also somehow bothering me). I was actually wondering why non-stateful feeds couldn't have archives: in the "This month's Top 10 records" feed, why couldn't I link to "Last month's Top 10 records"? If this kind of links are not dealt within feed-history, then I suggest splitting the draft into two (three) parts: 1. fh:stateful: whether a feed is stateful or not 2. fh:prev: state reconstruction of a stateful feed 3. (published later) fh:????: link to archives of a non-stateful feed (no, I actually don't want such a split, I'd rather deal with the "3." in feed-history, no matter how) If we want to solve this "issue" using a distinct element (fh:prev if fh:stateful=true, fh:???? if fh:stateful=false), is fh:stateful still needed? The presence of fh:prev would be equivalent to fh:stateful=true, the presence of fh:???? would be equivalent to fh:stateful=false, the absence of both fh:prev and fh:???? would be equivalent to the absence of fh:stateful, and the presence of both fh:prev and fh:???? would be an error. This is off course true only if fh:prev must be accompanied by fh:stateful=true. The question is: is it useful to have fh:stateful if you have no link to any kind of archive? >> I also repeat my proposal for an identifier different from an URI >> for a reader/aggregator to know whether it has already retrieved an >> archive document, e.g. using the "updated" date-time of the >> "fh:prev"-linked archive feed. >> >> Example: >> >> > xmlns:history="[TBD]"> >> Example Feed >> >> 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z >> >> John Doe >> >> urn:uuid:60a76c80-d399-11d9-b93C-0003939e0af6 >> true >> >> >> http://example.org/2003/11/index.atom >> >> >> Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok >> >> urn:uuid:1225c695-cfb8-4ebb-aaaa-80da344efa6a >> 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z >> Some text in a new, fresh entry. >> >> >> >> >> If I retrieved the feed between 2003-11-24T12:00:00Z and >> 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z, the fh:prev URI were probably equal to http:// >> example.org/2003/10/index.atom (october, not november). However, I >> didn't miss any entry. >> Using the fh:prev@updated value, I can know that I didn't miss any >> entry and that I then don't need to dereference http://example.org/ >> 2003/11/index.atom (november, the "new" fh:prev URI) > > Hmm, that seems awfully complex (and hard to grasp -- but maybe it's > just me :) just to avoid a round trip. One, or a few more... depending on how you archive your entries (daily archive document, weekly archive document, N entries per archive document, etc.), how you publish your entries in the subscription feed (N entries in the feed, or only those entries published during the N last days), and who frequently you post. Your subscription feed entries can overlap several archive feeds and the fh:prev jump from "archive2.atom" to "archive5.atom". Using "updated", you can avoid 3 round trips in that case. ...or too many: what if I switch URL addressing scheme (e.g. from "archive1.atom"..."archiveN.atom" to "2005/January.atom"..."2005/June.atom")? A "dumb" reader will retrieve back every archive feed, as it has never ever dereferenced the URIs. > That 'probably' is also worrying me. I used probably because you didn't provide the example ;o) Assuming that I retrieved the feed, I know the value fh:prev had at that time. > How would you express this in the 'reconstructing state' section? [[ An implementation MAY store the "atom:updated" value of retrieved archive feeds, and it MAY then stop when it encounters an fh:prev "updated" value earlier than the latest "atom:updated" that has been stored beforehand when following this process. ]] -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 20 15:23:43 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DvKAR-0001BI-Ao for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:23:43 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA23641 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:23:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6KJFL26008404; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:15:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6KJFLWi008403; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:15:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-vbr4.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr4.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.24]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6KJFJtD008395 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:15:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sjoerd@w3future.com) Received: from [10.0.0.2] (w3future.xs4all.nl [213.84.155.207]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp-vbr4.xs4all.nl (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j6KJFCs3042915 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:15:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from sjoerd@w3future.com) Message-ID: <42DEA2B6.9060001@w3future.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:15:02 +0200 From: Sjoerd Visscher User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Notes on the latest draft - xml:base References: <20050720050851.44609.qmail@web42206.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050720050851.44609.qmail@web42206.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Cerra wrote: > xml:base is a broken specification. At the simplest, it's just a lame attempt > at abbreviating strings. However, it solves that problem in the worst > possible manner. As the RDF serializations show, what is needed is a > name/value pair simular to entities or xml namespaces. That's because it is not an attempt at abbreviating strings, but to preserve the meaning of relative URIs, when content is used outside of its original context. -- Sjoerd Visscher http://w3future.com/weblog/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 20 17:04:16 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DvLji-0003FN-3F for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:04:15 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA24012 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:04:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6KKvePY018905; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:57:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6KKveNB018904; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:57:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6KKvdIh018898 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:57:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 86878 invoked by uid 17064); 20 Jul 2005 20:57:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.8]) ([83.112.229.9]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Jul 2005 20:57:39 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <2D93D819-2138-4ED9-8B23-8AAE13BCEACC@bblfish.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: Atom WG From: Henry Story Subject: images and logos Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:57:37 +0200 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have just published a feed for my blog at http://bblfish.net/blog/ blog.atom I use logo and icon tags. Am I using it correctly? I wanted to add logos and icons to each of the entries too, as each entry at http://bblfish.net/blog/ has an associated image and logo. I guess I will have to create my own extension element and won't be able to reuse the current atom ones. Is anyone else interested in this? Henry From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 20 23:01:17 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DvRJF-0004UK-5E for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:01:17 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA01818 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:01:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6L2nbHW048791; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:49:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6L2nboj048790; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:49:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web42206.mail.yahoo.com (web42206.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6L2nbJK048777 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:49:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jfcst24_public@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 86683 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Jul 2005 02:49:27 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=lwXp0HVRORxu90l2BqaJaPNgiWvfJogKROrwf1FDXJe2FW6ebvtQJI8/iv/hRh41aO2zA9qgo7dRTzAexjcbiT5xv5rcqIvj6cM+wRYBt5/qm2btfUaxXe0EAx3rULC6b9iqzxoZuOSbU1yzzN4Nrd4Exq6j/BQ4EzEYASESttc= ; Message-ID: <20050721024927.86681.qmail@web42206.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.155.75.54] by web42206.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:49:27 PDT Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:49:27 -0700 (PDT) From: James Cerra Subject: Re: Notes on the latest draft - xml:base To: Sjoerd Visscher , atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <42DEA2B6.9060001@w3future.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sjoerd Visscher, > > xml:base is a broken specification. At the simplest, it's just a lame > > attempt at abbreviating strings. However, it solves that problem in the > > worst possible manner. As the RDF serializations show, what is needed is > > a name/value pair simular to entities or xml namespaces. > > That's because it is not an attempt at abbreviating strings, but to > preserve the meaning of relative URIs, when content is used outside of > its original context. Same thing. You are framing the question in a manner that hides the problem, but it's still there. The meaning of a relative URI string depends on only one thing: the missing URI string prefix. That prefix _is_ the context. That means that preserving the semantics of the relative URI string means making it equivalent to the prefix concatenated with the relative part. IOW the relative URI is an abbreviated string of the full URI. Thus a solution for abbreviating strings also solves the problem you indicated but in a more general manner. -- Jimmy Cerra https://nemo.dev.java.net ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 20 23:44:14 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DvRyo-0002Fp-4E for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:44:14 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA03889 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:44:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6L3XSFn052182; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:33:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6L3XSNx052181; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:33:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web42202.mail.yahoo.com (web42202.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.203]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6L3XSst052151 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:33:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jfcst24_public@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 99166 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Jul 2005 03:33:23 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=FnMCaxXMEwHBnLrv7+PpauMKHkPr9Si1nVMRvxilJP9AXAlWzEgIh0pp0Y8em43nysOJqACw2e5BsHLn4QJyXQIEeYE0jXOTYOmuaSd/lR+ccykJtBhtpgJPhat/3Oliploutb97PV9ST1qI+Mh7eyM6NErB3/XqYOV7M+p64C4= ; Message-ID: <20050721033323.99164.qmail@web42202.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.155.75.54] by web42202.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:33:23 PDT Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:33:23 -0700 (PDT) From: James Cerra Subject: Re: Notes on the latest draft. To: "A. Pagaltzis" , atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <20050720072823.GA1202@klangraum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id XAA03889 Aristotle Pagaltzis, Thanks for the clarifications. > > Section 1.2: > > ------------ > > > http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom > >=20 > > I guess consistancy is not a requirement of the Atom spec. By > > convention, this should be all lowercase. Existing software > > for Atom 0.3 has to be recoded for Atom 1.0, so this change has > > no real cost. >=20 > It does =E2=80=93 in terms of time, for putting another draft through t= he > process. Opposed with the cost of all the spelling errors that the general public = will make? The cost to fix it now is marginal compared with the cost over dec= ades of Atom 1.0 feeds. Individually these changes may not warrent a new draft, but together I th= ink they warrant inclusion if, for some other reason, a new draft is drafted. > > Section 3.2.2: > > -------------- > > > The "atom:uri" element's content conveys an IRI associated > > > with the person. Person constructs MAY contain an atom:uri > > > element, but MUST NOT contain more than one. The content of > > > atom:uri in a Person construct MUST be an IRI reference. > >=20 > > There is no reason *not* to change this to "atom:id". It is > > lazy and dangerous to have an element lie about the type of its > > content. Furthermore, the whole point of atom:uri is the same > > as atom:id - to identify the thing they refer to (author or > > entry) - and their content is likewise identical. >=20 > This is really a homepage link. It serves a totally different > purpose from atom:id, and using the same term for the two would > be dangerous. You might be right.... but then it should be named atom:homepage. Callin= g it atom:uri is misleading. I guess my main complaint about Atom right now is that it feels like ther= e is little consistency with regard to the name and structure of elements. Th= at makes it harder for humans to understand than it has to be. (An importan= t point I think, since humans create the software and misunderstandings oft= en create the hardest bugs to work around.) > > Section 4.2.6: > > -------------- > In other words, relative IRIs are forbidden and thus no > interaction with xml:base is possible either. Oversight on my part. Got it. -- Jimmy Cerra https://nemo.dev.java.net =09 ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page=20 http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs=20 =20 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 20 23:52:00 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DvS6J-0005SU-Sf for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:52:00 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA04358 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:51:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6L3hHAk053433; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:43:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6L3hHP9053432; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:43:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web42210.mail.yahoo.com (web42210.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.221]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6L3hFoL053410 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:43:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jfcst24_public@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 43181 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Jul 2005 03:43:10 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=bSD18YippBt1nl2VMqN5iAbGG63a+hZk6cCKfMvp9Js/tH8jtoqX+6yWi08NzBinQI/ziQ0VQWmSiVWdM0TdFz4TyTLdPYu+tGojvXWrFxhBeLa4kWOwC4QeEuUP9+wINb3a7txKs0IG1p5uzn0LJIvZ7ghR/YOtCJ2bDvKiteg= ; Message-ID: <20050721034310.43179.qmail@web42210.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.155.69.121] by web42210.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:43:10 PDT Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:43:10 -0700 (PDT) From: James Cerra Subject: Re: Notes on the latest draft. To: Graham , atom-syntax In-Reply-To: <2DAFD563-70BB-4FA6-B657-A3F878BDCA53@mac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Graham, > > I feel that HTML entities other than numeric references, &gt;, > > &lt;, > > &amp;, &apos;, and &quote; should be depreciated in HTML > > content. > > Disagree. All it needs is a simple look-up table in the HTML parser. In an XSLT-based Atom-to-XHTML processor, that is a large cost when HTML includes many many many entities. At least, I think so and have ignored the problem because I can't think of a good way to solve it. > > There is no reason *not* to change this to "atom:id". It is lazy and > > dangerous to have an element lie about the type of its content. > > Furthermore, > > the whole point of atom:uri is the same as atom:id - to identify > > the thing > > they refer to (author or entry) - and their content is likewise > > identical. > > There is no reason to think that it is either unique to an author or > will be the same for every reference to a particular author. It's a > useless identifier. I agree, but for other reasons (see my reply to Aristotle Pagaltzis). Still, calling it atom:uri is a lie by the spec. Specs should NEVER NEVER lie! > > OTOH, is there a reason that atom:uri (which should be > > atom:indentifier) and > > atom:email are not attributes of a person construct? > > To allow easier, consistent extension. OK. -- Jimmy Cerra https://nemo.dev.java.net ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 20 23:59:06 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DvSDB-0001mf-Kv for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:59:06 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA04613 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:59:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6L3pocI054193; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:51:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6L3pouV054192; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:51:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.200]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6L3pn7p054186 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:51:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id a41so80424rng for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:51:48 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=lR+zDQRS60o4tsmrLO3PZ3iHNMqD+mVJScZznSXapZTRK7HREl7XELDMA+tpx4kVsH7gr3LycKzubQiV6M1SvdtAGcIlEUHgCJ0VSqH7dR6aMo/j4Pw2cgyiJmJE+lNHw16IABHtQ6Y9IJJe5zpyly8r0CMj5Tg8GiKpXFHVLQk= Received: by 10.38.90.45 with SMTP id n45mr402292rnb; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 59sm292856rnd.2005.07.20.20.51.30; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42DF1BBD.8090703@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:51:25 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Cerra CC: "A. Pagaltzis" , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Notes on the latest draft. References: <20050721033323.99164.qmail@web42202.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050721033323.99164.qmail@web42202.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Cerra wrote: > >You might be right.... but then it should be named atom:homepage. Calling it >atom:uri is misleading. > > > It's an arbitrary IRI "associated with the person"... it's most common use will be a link to a homepage but that's not the only use for it. I could use it, for instance, to reference a FOAF document that describes me. It's completely up in the air but is not used to unique id the individual. atom:id would be misleading and atom:homepage is not general enough. >I guess my main complaint about Atom right now is that it feels like there is >little consistency with regard to the name and structure of elements. That >makes it harder for humans to understand than it has to be. (An important >point I think, since humans create the software and misunderstandings often >create the hardest bugs to work around.) > > > There are something like 21 elements in the entire namespace. Each with very clear descriptions of structure and use. I'm sorry, I'm not buying your argument that the spec is somehow too hard for humans to understand. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 21 00:11:50 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DvSPW-0000Yr-0N for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:11:50 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA05331 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:11:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6L45ecl055365; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:05:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6L45eF6055364; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:05:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6L45eC6055352 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:05:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <200507210405340140032t3ge>; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 04:05:34 +0000 Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:05:32 -0600 Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-01.txt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <42DE8D72.7090205@cegetel.net> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday, July 20, 2005, at 11:44 AM, Thomas Broyer wrote: > I was actually wondering why non-stateful feeds couldn't have archives: > in the "This month's Top 10 records" feed, why couldn't I link to "Last > month's Top 10 records"? > If this kind of links are not dealt within feed-history, then I suggest > splitting the draft into two (three) parts: > 1. fh:stateful: whether a feed is stateful or not > 2. fh:prev: state reconstruction of a stateful feed > 3. (published later) fh:????: link to archives of a non-stateful feed > (no, I actually don't want such a split, I'd rather deal with the "3." > in feed-history, no matter how) > > If we want to solve this "issue" using a distinct element (fh:prev if > fh:stateful=true, fh:???? if fh:stateful=false), is fh:stateful still > needed? The presence of fh:prev would be equivalent to > fh:stateful=true, > the presence of fh:???? would be equivalent to fh:stateful=false, the > absence of both fh:prev and fh:???? would be equivalent to the absence > of fh:stateful, and the presence of both fh:prev and fh:???? would be > an > error. > This is off course true only if fh:prev must be accompanied by > fh:stateful=true. The question is: is it useful to have fh:stateful if > you have no link to any kind of archive? > I would think that rather than fh:stateful="true | false", it might be more useful to have (with a different element name, and perhaps different values) fh:what-kind-of-feed-is-this="sliding-window | snapshot | ???". If it's a sliding-window feed, fh:prev points to the previous sliding window. If it's a snapshot feed, then fh:prev points to the previous snapshot. fh:what-kind-of-feed-is-this might have a default value of sliding-window. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 21 00:26:25 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DvSdd-0007KL-JA for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:26:25 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA06207 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:26:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6L4HwxQ056697; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:17:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6L4HwIQ056696; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:17:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6L4HuPU056685 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:17:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 21 Jul 2005 04:17:50 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-225-45.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.225.45] by mail.gmx.net (mp006) with SMTP; 21 Jul 2005 06:17:50 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 06:22:52 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Notes on the latest draft - xml:base Message-ID: <20050721042252.GA19296@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <42DEA2B6.9060001@w3future.com> <20050721024927.86681.qmail@web42206.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050721024927.86681.qmail@web42206.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id AAA06207 * James Cerra [2005-07-21 05:00]: > Sjoerd Visscher, > > That's because it is not an attempt at abbreviating strings, > > but to preserve the meaning of relative URIs, when content is > > used outside of its original context. >=20 > Same thing. You are framing the question in a manner that > hides the problem, but it's still there. No, it frames the question in a manner that addresses the purpose of having the mechanism. > IOW the relative URI is an abbreviated string of the full URI. > Thus a solution for abbreviating strings also solves the > problem you indicated but in a more general manner. How would that work? When you copy content from one document to another, relative URIs need rewriting. Now please tell me all the locations where you can find machine-readable relative URIs in a HTML document off the top of your head. If you think it=E2=80=99s possible, consider that the document may include Javascript which builds URIs programmatically. The basic problem adressed by =E2=80=9Cbase URI embedded in content=E2=80= =9D is how to copy content from one location to another while preserving the meaning of relative URIs *without* having to munge the copied content =E2=80=93 because rewriting reliably is impossible. How should any scheme you=E2=80=99d propose solve this? And is any such scheme deployable on the web today? Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 21 00:49:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DvSzn-000238-SR for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:49:19 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA07100 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:49:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6L4gmQS058791; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:42:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6L4gmBu058790; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:42:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6L4gmVG058781 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:42:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <200507210442430140033lvre>; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 04:42:43 +0000 Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:42:41 -0600 Subject: Re: Notes on the latest draft - xml:base Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <20050721042252.GA19296@klangraum> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday, July 20, 2005, at 10:22 PM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > * James Cerra [2005-07-21 05:00]: >> Sjoerd Visscher, >>> That's because it is not an attempt at abbreviating strings, >>> but to preserve the meaning of relative URIs, when content is >>> used outside of its original context. >> >> Same thing. You are framing the question in a manner that >> hides the problem, but it's still there. > > No, it frames the question in a manner that addresses the purpose > of having the mechanism. > Right--it frames it in the context created by RFC 3986. However, since this issue is commonly misunderstood, it's likely that xml:base will often be used for string abbreviation in the wild--thus, indeed the problem is still there. If anyone doubts that base URIs as defined by RFC 3986 are not intended simply for abbreviation, read section 4.4 ("Same-Document References"). The method outlined there for recognizing same-document references would be entirely unreliable if base URIs were used to abbreviate arbitrary portions of URIs. It only works if the base URI is an address from which the data containing the relative URI can be retrieved. If base URIs are intended for abbreviation convenience, then that section of RFC 3986 is completely broken. My impression is that it isn't broken, but says what was intended. ...but now I've forgotten whether anyone has made a concrete suggestion about what can be done at this point, and to solve exactly what problem. Do I smell another note in the infamous implementers guide? From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 21 00:51:54 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DvT2H-0002Hr-Km for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:51:54 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA07224 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6L4h4Kc058817; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:43:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6L4h4mc058815; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:43:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.oasis-open.org (office.oasis-open.org [65.211.1.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6L4h31r058799 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:43:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robin@oasis-open.org) Received: (qmail 3910 invoked by uid 500); 21 Jul 2005 03:34:39 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 21 Jul 2005 03:34:39 -0000 Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:34:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Robin Cover X-X-Sender: robin@localhost.localdomain To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Notes on the latest draft. In-Reply-To: <20050721033323.99164.qmail@web42202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id AAA07224 On Wed, 20 Jul 2005, James Cerra wrote: >=20 > Aristotle Pagaltzis, >=20 > Thanks for the clarifications. >=20 > > > Section 1.2: > > > ------------ > > > > http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom > > >=20 > > > I guess consistancy is not a requirement of the Atom spec. By > > > convention, this should be all lowercase. Existing software I'm not sure who said "this should be all lowercase" but I don't understand the concern. Only programmers will be hand-keying a namespace. Most programming languages are case sensitive; XML is case sensitive; if a programmer can't spell, how can s/he be a successful programmer of XML tools? Genuinely baffled, -rcc > > > for Atom 0.3 has to be recoded for Atom 1.0, so this change has > > > no real cost. > >=20 > > It does =E2=80=93 in terms of time, for putting another draft through= the > > process. >=20 > Opposed with the cost of all the spelling errors that the general publi= c will > make? The cost to fix it now is marginal compared with the cost over d= ecades > of Atom 1.0 feeds. >=20 > Individually these changes may not warrent a new draft, but together I = think > they warrant inclusion if, for some other reason, a new draft is drafte= d. >=20 > > > Section 3.2.2: > > > -------------- > > > > The "atom:uri" element's content conveys an IRI associated > > > > with the person. Person constructs MAY contain an atom:uri > > > > element, but MUST NOT contain more than one. The content of > > > > atom:uri in a Person construct MUST be an IRI reference. > > >=20 > > > There is no reason *not* to change this to "atom:id". It is > > > lazy and dangerous to have an element lie about the type of its > > > content. Furthermore, the whole point of atom:uri is the same > > > as atom:id - to identify the thing they refer to (author or > > > entry) - and their content is likewise identical. > >=20 > > This is really a homepage link. It serves a totally different > > purpose from atom:id, and using the same term for the two would > > be dangerous. >=20 > You might be right.... but then it should be named atom:homepage. Call= ing it > atom:uri is misleading. >=20 > I guess my main complaint about Atom right now is that it feels like th= ere is > little consistency with regard to the name and structure of elements. = That > makes it harder for humans to understand than it has to be. (An import= ant > point I think, since humans create the software and misunderstandings o= ften > create the hardest bugs to work around.) >=20 > > > Section 4.2.6: > > > -------------- > > In other words, relative IRIs are forbidden and thus no > > interaction with xml:base is possible either. >=20 > Oversight on my part. Got it. >=20 >=20 > -- > Jimmy Cerra > https://nemo.dev.java.net >=20 >=20 > =09 > ____________________________________________________ > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page=20 > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs=20 > =20 >=20 >=20 --=20 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 21 06:16:32 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DvY6S-0006T5-BF for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 06:16:32 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA16936 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 06:16:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6LA2Ll0083778; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 03:02:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6LA2LFm083777; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 03:02:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf01.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.68]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6LA2ImD083734 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 03:02:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from cegetel.net (217-19-192-101.dti.cegetel.net [217.19.192.101]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with SMTP id A46AE319492; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:02:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 82.127.77.43 (SquirrelMail authenticated user t.broyer@cegetel.net) by ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com with HTTP; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:02:12 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <2937.82.127.77.43.1121940132.squirrel@ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:02:12 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-01.txt From: "Thomas Broyer" To: In-Reply-To: References: <42DE8D72.7090205@cegetel.net> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Cc: X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.10) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Antone Roundy wrote: > > On Wednesday, July 20, 2005, at 11:44 AM, Thomas Broyer wrote: >> I was actually wondering why non-stateful feeds couldn't have >> archives: in the "This month's Top 10 records" feed, why couldn't I >> link to "Last month's Top 10 records"? >> If this kind of links are not dealt within feed-history, then I >> suggest splitting the draft into two (three) parts: >> 1. fh:stateful: whether a feed is stateful or not >> 2. fh:prev: state reconstruction of a stateful feed >> 3. (published later) fh:????: link to archives of a non-stateful >> feed >> (no, I actually don't want such a split, I'd rather deal with the "3." >> in feed-history, no matter how) >> >> If we want to solve this "issue" using a distinct element (fh:prev if >> fh:stateful=true, fh:???? if fh:stateful=false), is fh:stateful still >> needed? The presence of fh:prev would be equivalent to >> fh:stateful=true, >> the presence of fh:???? would be equivalent to fh:stateful=false, the >> absence of both fh:prev and fh:???? would be equivalent to the absence >> of fh:stateful, and the presence of both fh:prev and fh:???? would be >> an >> error. >> This is off course true only if fh:prev must be accompanied by >> fh:stateful=true. The question is: is it useful to have fh:stateful if >> you have no link to any kind of archive? >> > I would think that rather than fh:stateful="true | false", it might be > more useful to have (with a different element name, and perhaps > different values) fh:what-kind-of-feed-is-this="sliding-window | > snapshot | ???". If it's a sliding-window feed, fh:prev points to the > previous sliding window. If it's a snapshot feed, then fh:prev points > to the previous snapshot. fh:what-kind-of-feed-is-this might have a > default value of sliding-window. +1 and with the addition of fh:prev/@updated (and an optional fh:prev/@title, see below), it turns feed-history to a really cool extension! We could also add some more hints about fh:prev processing depending on fh:what-kind-of-feed-is-this: * if the value is "sliding-window", an Atom Processor MAY reconstruct the feed state automatically without user interaction * if the value is "snapshot", an Atom Processor SHOULD NOT retrieve archive snapshot feeds unless told by the user (e.g. showing a link or button using fh:prev/@title as the label); when presented to the user, entries in the retrieved snapshot feed SHOULD replace any entry from within another snapshot (e.g. "Last Month's Top 10 records" should replace "This Month's Top 10 records"). fh:prev/@title could be used on sliding-window feeds to indicate the title of the latest entry in the previous feed (just like blog homepages sometimes link to the previous entry using its title). fh:prev would look like: http://example.net/archives/june.atom -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 21 06:24:44 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DvYEO-0001GB-Lv for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 06:24:44 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA17312 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 06:24:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6LAIGxr089457; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 03:18:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6LAIGrD089456; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 03:18:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6LAIFqG089419 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 03:18:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6LAH8ik002116 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:17:14 +0100 (BST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) In-Reply-To: <20050721034310.43179.qmail@web42210.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050721034310.43179.qmail@web42210.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Graham Subject: Re: Notes on the latest draft. Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:17:06 +0100 To: atom-syntax X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 21 Jul 2005, at 4:43 am, James Cerra wrote: > In an XSLT-based Atom-to-XHTML processor, that is a large cost when > HTML > includes many many many entities. At least, I think so and have > ignored the > problem because I can't think of a good way to solve it. Yes, but your proposed solution just requires people at the other end of the chain to do the hard work. A common theme in the design of Atom is minimizing the amount of work that must be done by publishers (of which there are many) vs the amount of work done by processing tools (of which there are few, and which are easier to turn into common libraries). Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 21 10:25:57 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dvbzl-0002yo-I7 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:25:57 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA05143 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:25:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6LEDPMR065714; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:13:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6LEDPXC065713; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:13:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [205.237.194.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6LEDOxq065707 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:13:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.3] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD069A34E1; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:13:23 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: References: <3E6C7917-B853-4DCF-A33E-7B7EDC9677B5@mnot.net> <3BD510EC-6549-4BE4-A962-D571A318FBB4@bblfish.net> <42DBE0ED.7060100@gmail.com> <1f9ad4d4c8a87d7a20f7deb4cbf5479f@greenbytes.de> <141BC3A3-3E8B-43BD-A65C-8FFA7F7FE38F@mnot.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <6CF6D6B7-3EFA-458C-9310-AD0E525484D3@mnot.net> Cc: Atom WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History -02 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:13:22 -0700 To: Stefan Eissing X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 19/07/2005, at 1:48 AM, Stefan Eissing wrote: > Let's say CNN goes stateful, how would a client handle a history > which soon consists of thousands of entries. How would a server > best offer such a history to avoid clients retrieving it over and > over again. Probably nobody has a good idea on that one, or? > > I have the feeling that clients will need to protect themselves > from servers with almost infinite histories. So a client will > probably offer a XX days into the past, max NN entries setting in > its UI. Maybe that is all that's needed. Good question. I was thinking roughly along these lines in the Security Considerations, but didn't want to lead people too much. > How about: > "In case feeds are served via HTTP, server implemenations SHOULD > offer ETag and Last-Modified headers on history documents (see RFC > 2616 xxx). Clients SHOULD persist ETag and Last-Modified > information and use If-* headers to ease server load on history > synchronization." Hmm. Maybe not SHOULDs, but some prose might lead people in the right direction, perhaps an 'Implementer Notes' section? -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 21 12:55:05 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DveK7-0003Fi-Sn for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:55:05 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA17769 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6LGjXVE078008; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:45:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6LGjXl8078007; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:45:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mailhost.netweaver.net (mailhost.netweaver.net [213.160.118.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6LGjW2A078000 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:45:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davep@dpawson.co.uk) Received: (qmail 27903 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2005 16:45:31 -0000 Received: from dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk (HELO ?192.168.2.7?) (davep@dpawson.co.uk@81.6.251.105) by 0 with SMTP; 21 Jul 2005 16:45:31 -0000 Subject: Re: Notes on the latest draft. From: Dave Pawson Reply-To: davep@dpawson.co.uk To: Graham Cc: atom-syntax In-Reply-To: References: <20050721034310.43179.qmail@web42210.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:45:30 +0100 Message-Id: <1121964330.4560.10.camel@marge> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.2 (2.2.2-5) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 2005-07-21 at 11:17 +0100, Graham wrote: > On 21 Jul 2005, at 4:43 am, James Cerra wrote: > > > In an XSLT-based Atom-to-XHTML processor, that is a large cost when > > HTML > > includes many many many entities. At least, I think so and have > > ignored the > > problem because I can't think of a good way to solve it. It's not an XSLT problem. The XSLT engine won't see the entities. The parser may baulk at it, but the XSLT engine won't feel the pain. I'm happily processing valid atom 1.0 containing XHTML through a number of stylesheets. No problems, but then again the only entities are NCR's. regards DaveP From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 21 14:19:14 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dvfda-0001WK-ML for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:19:14 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA23831 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:19:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6LIDBOc085936; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:13:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6LIDBwg085935; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:13:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web42202.mail.yahoo.com (web42202.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.203]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6LIDAaJ085911 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:13:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jfcst24_public@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 55705 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Jul 2005 18:13:05 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=1K2j2gxwrlNspgZtEPZOugKCse3k7pPQXh3b83+bJfKHiahtIIIVWYjcmutgU9NbuxMMUGBco19mwJ4tYfqXaCVazZz5NTSjMF1gZUdxzim6qTKZ5KONMy84g4fufeaK577Wg73x51yxFmMvTAFRsh9hwa1mExPxGALOAuBDDCw= ; Message-ID: <20050721181305.55703.qmail@web42202.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.155.69.245] by web42202.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:13:05 PDT Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:13:05 -0700 (PDT) From: James Cerra Subject: Re: Notes on the latest draft - xml:base To: "A. Pagaltzis" , atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <20050721042252.GA19296@klangraum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id OAA23831 A. Pagaltzis, > A. Pagaltzis wrote: > > Jim Cerra wrote: > > > Sjoerd Visscher wrote: > > > That's because it is not an attempt at abbreviating strings, > > > but to preserve the meaning of relative URIs, when content is > > > used outside of its original context. > >=20 > > Same thing. You are framing the question in a manner that > > hides the problem, but it's still there. >=20 > No, it frames the question in a manner that addresses the purpose > of having the mechanism. >=20 > > IOW the relative URI is an abbreviated string of the full URI. > > Thus a solution for abbreviating strings also solves the > > problem you indicated but in a more general manner. >=20 > How would that work? >=20 > ... >=20 > How should any scheme you'd propose solve this? And is any such > scheme deployable on the web today? Of course. I'll answer backwards. Using the terminology of your frame o= f reference.... I'd solve it in the same manner that XML namespaces solved the multiple c= ontext problem: by providing a default context as well as explicitly named conte= xts.=20 The default context works the same way as xml:base or the the default xml= ns works now. Explicit contexts would work simular to prefixed namespaces (xmlns:prefix). > When you copy content from one document to another, relative URIs > need rewriting. Now please tell me all the locations where you > can find machine-readable relative URIs in a HTML document off > the top of your head. If you think it's possible, consider that > the document may include Javascript which builds URIs > programmatically. >=20 > The basic problem adressed by "base URI embedded in content"=9D is > how to copy content from one location to another while preserving > the meaning of relative URIs *without* having to munge the copied > content =E2=80=93 because rewriting reliably is impossible. The same way as now: copying the base URI context[s] from the XML infoset assocated with the elements being copied. It is the same way namespaces = are handled now. -- Jimmy Cerra https://nemo.dev.java.net =09 ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page=20 http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs=20 =20 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 21 14:40:27 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dvfy7-0002bl-Ok for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:40:27 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA25757 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:40:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6LITdG0087832; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:29:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6LITdJt087831; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:29:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web42208.mail.yahoo.com (web42208.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.209]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6LITcYi087820 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:29:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jfcst24_public@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 16765 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Jul 2005 18:29:33 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=oTqFkP8bf3HdChVRerlh+3nndJ8uozo1sruOEkLJa557uzt+4EYdBSEPJm1Z3AI+uGHsWsXvznz8KYfrhuVH65HzDt6VlxfEVYIFOgE5cpOGeNDcoKh0I92bolNjLYYvgG8ALjCqunvgTr4uvUv9Z1UKJIhkbN/DUPpBlDghy3Y= ; Message-ID: <20050721182933.16763.qmail@web42208.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.155.69.245] by web42208.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:29:33 PDT Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:29:33 -0700 (PDT) From: James Cerra Subject: Re: Notes on the latest draft. To: Graham , atom-syntax In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Graham, > Yes, but your proposed solution just requires people at the other end > of the chain to do the hard work. A common theme in the design of > Atom is minimizing the amount of work that must be done by publishers > (of which there are many) vs the amount of work done by processing > tools (of which there are few, and which are easier to turn into > common libraries). You are probably correct. However... Aren't HTML's character references harder for publishing software to produce compared with HTML numeric references? After all, producing numeric references requires a simple fast algorithm and no lookup table. Thus, depreciating HTML character references makes it _easier_ to publish Atom code as well. The only feed producer software that probably likes HTML character references above all else are human hands. And if humans are writing their feeds by hand, then.......... :-o (Of course, I'm probably the loser who would actually write my own feeds by hand! :-)) -- Jimmy Cerra https://nemo.dev.java.net __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 21 14:45:56 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dvg3Q-0003xq-Md for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:45:56 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA26357 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:45:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6LIdR0t088368; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:39:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6LIdRCK088367; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:39:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6LIdQDT088340 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:39:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6LIcRUE016457; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:38:32 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <20050721182933.16763.qmail@web42208.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050721182933.16763.qmail@web42208.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <6276B219-2039-47FF-9170-A8E706BC332F@mac.com> Cc: atom-syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Graham Subject: Re: Notes on the latest draft. Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:38:20 +0100 To: James Cerra X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 21 Jul 2005, at 7:29 pm, James Cerra wrote: > Graham, > > >> Yes, but your proposed solution just requires people at the other end >> of the chain to do the hard work. A common theme in the design of >> Atom is minimizing the amount of work that must be done by publishers >> (of which there are many) vs the amount of work done by processing >> tools (of which there are few, and which are easier to turn into >> common libraries). >> > > You are probably correct. However... > > Aren't HTML's character references harder for publishing software > to produce > compared with HTML numeric references? After all, producing > numeric references > requires a simple fast algorithm and no lookup table. Thus, > depreciating HTML > character references makes it _easier_ to publish Atom code as well. Not if the HTML in the publishers database already contains named references, and/or users are regularly submitting HTML that contains named references. > The only feed producer software that probably likes HTML character > references > above all else are human hands. And if humans are writing their > feeds by hand, > then. Feeds a generally a small facet of a much larger publishing system or process, that yes, includes humans. Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 21 16:13:59 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DvhQd-0006D3-6J for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:13:59 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA12731 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:13:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6LJxYve096483; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:59:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6LJxYrt096482; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:59:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6LJxSBM096466 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:59:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 21 Jul 2005 19:59:22 -0000 Received: from xdsl-81-173-173-197.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [81.173.173.197] by mail.gmx.net (mp025) with SMTP; 21 Jul 2005 21:59:22 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:04:26 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Notes on the latest draft. Message-ID: <20050721200426.GA20897@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax References: <20050721182933.16763.qmail@web42208.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050721182933.16763.qmail@web42208.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id QAA12731 * James Cerra [2005-07-21 20:45]: > Aren't HTML's character references harder for publishing > software to produce compared with HTML numeric references? > [=E2=80=A6] The only feed producer software that probably likes HTML > character references above all else are human hands. And if > humans are writing their feeds by hand, then.......... :-o Well, the feed could still be autogenerated even though a human is writing HTML by hand. Most weblogging systems allow the author to write his post as HTML. In the simplest case, a feed of such entries would be automatically generated but would still contain human-authored HTML. > (Of course, I'm probably the loser who would actually write my > own feeds by hand! :-)) Not really=E2=80=A6 :-) I run my weblog by editing a single Atom (0.3 as of yet, need to convert=E2=80=A6) feed that contains all entries ever, from which a stylesheet generates the public feed and all the webpages. But I never need to write any entities, since that file is UTF-8 and I edit it with gvim. (Insert =E2=80=9CUTF-8 rocks=E2=80=9D f= anboy praise.) Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 21 17:12:00 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DviKm-0007Du-9g for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:12:00 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA07850 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:11:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6LL3L7e001447; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:03:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6LL3Lqg001446; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:03:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.201]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6LL3KhN001438 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:03:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id c51so72115rne for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:03:20 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ECIEmQmmXMY8x1IayeCs6TdMDo9LCPaxcldklfil69KyFu/UPipnjn81hHemm64n628dCXOdDT9Hu48ktp0/tOIzfulbndo7TfqvKnOACnjSmyHOVDCCBombLlCWXUJaugTglnQrCQsWyEiRPMWl1P2RDX+ZDXXSNmfJPzrjNeU= Received: by 10.38.75.26 with SMTP id x26mr846952rna; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id a2sm1480371rnf.2005.07.21.13.44.05; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:44:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42E0090E.5060506@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:43:58 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax Subject: Latest on the comments extension References: <20050721182933.16763.qmail@web42208.mail.yahoo.com> <20050721200426.GA20897@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20050721200426.GA20897@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been continuing to tweak the comments extension and believe that I am nearing a stable enough version to draft up the I-D. Here's what I've got currently: http://www.snellspace.com/wp/?p=194 There are three link relations: * http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0/comments * http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0/root * http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0/in-reply-to /comments provides the URL (dereferencable) to an Atom feed that contains comment entries and may appear within atom:feed and/or atom:entry /root provides the URL (dereferencable) to the Atom feed that contains the original entries and may appear within atom:feed and/or atom:entry /in-reply-to provides the atom:id (not dereferencable) of an original atom:entry and may appear within atom:feed or atom:entry. in-reply-to on the feed level indicates that all of the entries within the feed are considered replies to the identified atom:entry. all of these link relations may appear more than once (e.g. an entry can be a reply to multiple entries from multiple feeds. Example 1: A weblog with a main feed and a comments feed Feed A: Main entry feed Feed B: Comments feed ... tag:entry:1 ... ... tag:entry:1:1 ... Example 2: A post on one weblog responds to a post on another weblog Feed A: Blog 1 feed Feed B: Blog 2 feed ... tag:blog-a:entry:1 ... ... tag:blog-b:entry:1 ... Feedback requested. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 21 18:31:43 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DvjZv-0008Bk-Hy for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:31:43 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA21088 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:31:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6LMQsAP006606; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:26:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6LMQsq2006605; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:26:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6LMQr4q006597 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:26:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 21 Jul 2005 22:26:47 -0000 Received: from xdsl-81-173-173-197.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [81.173.173.197] by mail.gmx.net (mp003) with SMTP; 22 Jul 2005 00:26:47 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:31:51 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Latest on the comments extension Message-ID: <20050721223151.GB21430@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax References: <42E0090E.5060506@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42E0090E.5060506@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id SAA21088 * James M Snell [2005-07-21 23:15]: > Feedback requested. I like it so far; comments follow (no pun intended). > /root provides the URL (dereferencable) to the Atom feed that > contains the original entries and may appear within atom:feed > and/or atom:entry Why is this restricted to being an Atom feed? Shouldn=E2=80=99t @type govern the precise meaning? Should linking to other kinds of resources, such as a weblog with the appropriate autodiscovery tags in its HTML or to a FOAF file, be outlawed? If not, are there any SHOULD/MUST requirements for linked resources? > /in-reply-to provides the atom:id (not dereferencable) of an > original atom:entry and may appear within atom:feed or > atom:entry. in-reply-to on the feed level indicates that all > of the entries within the feed are considered replies to the > identified atom:entry. Is it legal if it appears at both levels? And what does it mean then? Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 21 19:16:55 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DvkHf-0008Qy-Pe for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:16:55 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA00616 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:16:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6LNAiG2009845; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:10:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6LNAiXt009844; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:10:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.198]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6LNAhoH009837 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:10:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id a41so90932rng for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:10:43 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=jOTvVLTPHLj+5jTkLR2IvKDa8b8Ghsk4fX3ERC6aYcpQ+bMM2GHeIQ/DE4f3mxr8guhj1I8D6YA3mRVp1buWxCD2MG2A0cVvsEi0s5U+oruZs7gmIrxVMc9xZHQ40jty4+O+RXgIgjXEOvDQut9BdHiH3D6BQNQl/6cUvhyfw7Y= Received: by 10.38.86.26 with SMTP id j26mr1996029rnb; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:43:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 74sm1002459rnb.2005.07.21.15.43.45; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:43:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42E0251A.5050602@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:43:38 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "A. Pagaltzis" CC: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Latest on the comments extension References: <42E0090E.5060506@gmail.com> <20050721223151.GB21430@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20050721223151.GB21430@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id TAA00616 A. Pagaltzis wrote: >* James M Snell [2005-07-21 23:15]: > =20 > >>Feedback requested. >> =20 >> > >I like it so far; comments follow (no pun intended). > > =20 > ;-) >>/root provides the URL (dereferencable) to the Atom feed that >>contains the original entries and may appear within atom:feed >>and/or atom:entry >> =20 >> > >Why is this restricted to being an Atom feed? Shouldn=E2=80=99t @type >govern the precise meaning? Should linking to other kinds of >resources, such as a weblog with the appropriate autodiscovery >tags in its HTML or to a FOAF file, be outlawed? If not, are >there any SHOULD/MUST requirements for linked resources? > > =20 > The restriction is to make the link predictable and keep the spec=20 simple. For instance, if I linked to anything but an Atom feed, what=20 would in-reply-to link to? >>/in-reply-to provides the atom:id (not dereferencable) of an >>original atom:entry and may appear within atom:feed or >>atom:entry. in-reply-to on the feed level indicates that all >>of the entries within the feed are considered replies to the >>identified atom:entry. >> =20 >> > >Is it legal if it appears at both levels? And what does it mean >then? > > =20 > Yes. If the entry level link has the same URI as the feed level link,=20 there is no effect... it's basically just redundant data. If the entry=20 level link specifies a different URI, then it's basically an assertion=20 that the entry is a response to two different entries. If all of the=20 entries within a feed are replies to the same entry, putting the=20 in-reply-to at the feed level simply gives you a shortcut the same way=20 that putting atom:author elements at the feed level rather than entry=20 level does. e.g. 1. 2. 3. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 21 20:34:56 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DvlVA-0000L8-NO for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:34:56 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA05923 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:34:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6M0Scs0016635; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:28:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6M0Scmt016634; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:28:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6M0SbZp016627 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:28:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 22 Jul 2005 00:28:31 -0000 Received: from xdsl-81-173-173-197.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [81.173.173.197] by mail.gmx.net (mp004) with SMTP; 22 Jul 2005 02:28:31 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 02:33:35 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Latest on the comments extension Message-ID: <20050722003335.GA22509@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax References: <42E0090E.5060506@gmail.com> <20050721223151.GB21430@klangraum> <42E0251A.5050602@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42E0251A.5050602@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id UAA05923 * James M Snell [2005-07-22 01:25]: >For instance, if I linked to anything but an Atom feed, what >would in-reply-to link to? Still atom:id values. Presumably, any resource linked to is associated, by whatever means, to the Atom feed containing the entry being replied to. I don=E2=80=99t know what behaviour would be most sensible for cases where it=E2=80=99s not an Atom feed and I=E2=80=99m no= t advocating trying to specify any. I just think it=E2=80=99s a good idea to say that the specified expectation, ie that it=E2=80=99s the Atom feed where the entry being replied to originated, applies only when @type=3D'application/atom+xml'. That way, if someone else figures out a sensible thing to do for other cases in the future, they can extend the same relation rather than needing to specify a new one. >If the entry level link specifies a different URI, then it's >basically an assertion that the entry is a response to two >different entries. Ah, the feed-level link simply inherits. Good idea, I like that. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 22 04:00:47 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DvsSd-0006c1-8H for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 04:00:47 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA21433 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 04:00:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6M7tJ0M013459; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:55:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6M7tJ7C013458; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:55:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf00.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.67]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6M7tFxJ013424 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:55:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from cegetel.net (217-19-192-101.dti.cegetel.net [217.19.192.101]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 7CD171A4447; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:55:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 82.127.77.43 (SquirrelMail authenticated user t.broyer@cegetel.net) by ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com with HTTP; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:55:09 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <3544.82.127.77.43.1122018909.squirrel@ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:55:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Latest on the comments extension From: "Thomas Broyer" To: In-Reply-To: <42E0251A.5050602@gmail.com> References: <42E0090E.5060506@gmail.com> <20050721223151.GB21430@klangraum> <42E0251A.5050602@gmail.com> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Cc: , X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.10) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit James M Snell wrote: > >>>/in-reply-to provides the atom:id (not dereferencable) of an >>>original atom:entry and may appear within atom:feed or >>>atom:entry. in-reply-to on the feed level indicates that all >>>of the entries within the feed are considered replies to the >>>identified atom:entry. >>> >>> >> >>Is it legal if it appears at both levels? And what does it mean >>then? >> >> >> > Yes. If the entry level link has the same URI as the feed level link, > there is no effect... it's basically just redundant data. If the entry > level link specifies a different URI, then it's basically an assertion > that the entry is a response to two different entries. If all of the > entries within a feed are replies to the same entry, putting the > in-reply-to at the feed level simply gives you a shortcut the same way > that putting atom:author elements at the feed level rather than entry > level does. > > e.g. > > 1. > > > > > > > > > 2. > > > > > > > > > 3. > > > > > > > #2 is not how atom:author "inheritance" works (assuming there is some kind of atom:author inheritance, which is not established). I'd prefer #2 to be equivalent to this: That is, the set of entry level links overrides the set of feed level links. If I understand correctly, ".../root" tells you where to find the entry identified with ".../in-reply-to". How are you dealing with multiple in-reply-to? If I misunderstood, what is ".../root" for? -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 22 04:15:51 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DvshD-0004E9-JF for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 04:15:51 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA22054 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 04:15:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6M8A5Ut018936; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 01:10:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6M8A5nn018935; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 01:10:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6M8A40o018925 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 01:10:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id c51so163063rne for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 01:10:04 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=hPuTkt9iF4/Xd5jZdlfJ/us6g8BRp49StZmolhWfW82X7rBjZAN7sdfEXSV7UuDvDnarKrMfurXlYDLbyCapKx7VTx9Q050YYQagTSZS9JDAOtw/sqNFmutluKfay/QsCuaT0AScrZD7Ehx0Kb9+EjbcWPOWVtIw2fV+ZYCcY7U= Received: by 10.38.101.65 with SMTP id y65mr1761568rnb; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 71sm1406830rna.2005.07.22.00.03.11; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:03:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42E09A2A.8090008@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:03:06 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Atom 1.0 Podcasts Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI: http://www.snellspace.com/wp/?p=196 IT Conversations Atom Podcasts. Just experimenting. I created these so that I could play around with a personalized version of ipodder that I'm updating to support Atom 1.0 podcasts. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 22 06:22:16 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DvufY-0000TM-0W for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:22:16 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA28695 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:22:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6MAEWR4064489; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 03:14:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6MAEVvC064488; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 03:14:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.dnainternet.net (smtp2.dnainternet.net [62.240.72.111]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6MAEV3Z064471 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 03:14:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hsivonen@iki.fi) Received: from 217-140-228-119.adsl-net.finnetcom.net ([217.140.228.119]:54853 "EHLO [217.140.228.119]" TLS-CIPHER: ) by smtp2.dnainternet.net with ESMTP id S1229439AbVGVKO3 (ORCPT ); Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:14:29 +0300 In-Reply-To: <20050720050851.44609.qmail@web42206.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050720050851.44609.qmail@web42206.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <5c911c4a04acea898e601bcebf376ea0@iki.fi> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Henri Sivonen Subject: Re: Notes on the latest draft. Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:14:28 +0300 To: James Cerra X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Jul 20, 2005, at 08:08, James Cerra wrote: > HTML has many entities predefined. If you use HTML content, are those > entities allowed (after being escaped, of course)? That would make it > really > really hard to normalize to text or XML without doctype processing. No. You are supposed to use a tag soup parser for HTML. Tag soup parsers don't process the DTD. They have a hard-coded table of character entities. > Also, how does Atom interact with HTML 5, You put the stuff in there and in time clients will adapt? > I still say that version or doctype attributes should be allowed > to solve disambiguities and allow compatibility with future versions > of those > specs. I am strongly against catering for doctype sniffing on the XHTML side. > Public/System identifiers can still be used to identify type without > validating it No, they cannot. See http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/#xml -- Henri Sivonen hsivonen@iki.fi http://hsivonen.iki.fi/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 22 08:00:56 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DvwD2-0003zt-0u for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:00:56 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA05991 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:00:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6MBsnRf000669; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 04:54:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6MBsnAS000668; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 04:54:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from krusty.greenbytes.de (mail.greenbytes.de [217.5.201.10] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6MBslBf000647 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 04:54:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stefan.eissing@greenbytes.de) Received: from [192.168.1.26] (burns.greenbytes.de [192.168.1.26]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by krusty.greenbytes.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35BE74C315BC; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:54:45 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <6CF6D6B7-3EFA-458C-9310-AD0E525484D3@mnot.net> References: <3E6C7917-B853-4DCF-A33E-7B7EDC9677B5@mnot.net> <3BD510EC-6549-4BE4-A962-D571A318FBB4@bblfish.net> <42DBE0ED.7060100@gmail.com> <1f9ad4d4c8a87d7a20f7deb4cbf5479f@greenbytes.de> <141BC3A3-3E8B-43BD-A65C-8FFA7F7FE38F@mnot.net> <6CF6D6B7-3EFA-458C-9310-AD0E525484D3@mnot.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <1ab3691acaac8a7899500c2959def4e5@greenbytes.de> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Atom WG From: Stefan Eissing Subject: Re: Feed History -02 Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:54:45 +0200 To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Am 21.07.2005 um 16:13 schrieb Mark Nottingham: > > On 19/07/2005, at 1:48 AM, Stefan Eissing wrote: > [...] > I have the feeling that clients will need to protect themselves from > servers with almost infinite histories. So a client will probably > offer a XX days into the past, max NN entries setting in its UI. Maybe > that is all that's needed. > > Good question. I was thinking roughly along these lines in the > Security Considerations, but didn't want to lead people too much. > > >> How about: >> "In case feeds are served via HTTP, server implemenations SHOULD >> offer ETag and Last-Modified headers on history documents (see RFC >> 2616 xxx). Clients SHOULD persist ETag and Last-Modified information >> and use If-* headers to ease server load on history synchronization." > > Hmm. Maybe not SHOULDs, but some prose might lead people in the right > direction, perhaps an 'Implementer Notes' section? Ok, a SHOULD is not really required. Let common sense prevail. The remaining question for me is if the fh:prev links are pointing to history records or if they are just a way to split a large feed into chunks. The more I think about it, the more I lean towards leaving the spec as is. Since clients do not trust servers very much, a clever client will most likely implement a synch strategy which frequently checks if the prev uris change and once a day/after a week absence traverse the prev chain and retrieve all documents. //Stefan From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 22 17:10:58 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dw4nK-0004gV-9O for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:10:58 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA27358 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:10:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6ML1ok7083413; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:01:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6ML1oFH083412; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:01:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.198]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6ML1nc5083403 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:01:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i28so272814nzi for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:01:43 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=CwnvFbUCkt0SaDQ53Qq0v4nF/mBav208bvTsvHWlMnJlXcYU5SgRjrFrEZ5rZY9lKZkj/goi0/eJgtU6HHn9tlGVV2VpNMos18pHR5L1HkFwfV7/fQ/qeOqf/C9M7tgkVNhQL1vrjM0DsghmHmVn1awb6Ne/+VYtRa/Ac/mAyX4= Received: by 10.36.7.15 with SMTP id 15mr42786nzg; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id c12sm62898nzc.2005.07.22.14.01.40; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42E15EAF.4040006@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:01:35 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thomas Broyer CC: pagaltzis@gmx.de, atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Latest on the comments extension References: <42E0090E.5060506@gmail.com> <20050721223151.GB21430@klangraum> <42E0251A.5050602@gmail.com> <3544.82.127.77.43.1122018909.squirrel@ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com> In-Reply-To: <3544.82.127.77.43.1122018909.squirrel@ssl-webmail.sitadelle.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas Broyer wrote: >James M Snell wrote: > > >>>>/in-reply-to provides the atom:id (not dereferencable) of an >>>>original atom:entry and may appear within atom:feed or >>>>atom:entry. in-reply-to on the feed level indicates that all >>>>of the entries within the feed are considered replies to the >>>>identified atom:entry. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Is it legal if it appears at both levels? And what does it mean >>>then? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Yes. If the entry level link has the same URI as the feed level link, >>there is no effect... it's basically just redundant data. If the entry >>level link specifies a different URI, then it's basically an assertion >>that the entry is a response to two different entries. If all of the >>entries within a feed are replies to the same entry, putting the >>in-reply-to at the feed level simply gives you a shortcut the same way >>that putting atom:author elements at the feed level rather than entry >>level does. >> >>e.g. >> >>1. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>2. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>3. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >#2 is not how atom:author "inheritance" works (assuming there is some kind >of atom:author inheritance, which is not established). I'd prefer #2 to be > > Yeah, you're right. bad analogy. >equivalent to this: > > > > > > >That is, the set of entry level links overrides the set of feed level links. > > Gotta think about this a bit more. This may be the better approach. >If I understand correctly, ".../root" tells you where to find the entry >identified with ".../in-reply-to". How are you dealing with multiple >in-reply-to? > > > > > >If I misunderstood, what is ".../root" for? > > > .../root is simply a link back to feeds that may contain root level entries (e.g. the entries being responded to). In the example, the two in-reply-to links could reference entries in either of the two linked root feeds. It's up to the implementation to figure out exactly how to handle it. Again, I'm still stewing over all this so if you have any specific suggestions on how to handle it better, please let me know. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 23 12:22:15 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DwMlS-0000tj-3m for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 12:22:15 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA06383 for ; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 12:22:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6NGEXJG031002; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:14:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6NGEXmK031001; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:14:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [205.237.194.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6NGEVjX030994 for ; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:14:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.3] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAB84A32D9; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 12:14:26 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <68295146-6858-483D-9F0B-5AAFDD4E2205@bblfish.net> References: <3E6C7917-B853-4DCF-A33E-7B7EDC9677B5@mnot.net> <3BD510EC-6549-4BE4-A962-D571A318FBB4@bblfish.net> <42DBE0ED.7060100@gmail.com> <1f9ad4d4c8a87d7a20f7deb4cbf5479f@greenbytes.de> <141BC3A3-3E8B-43BD-A65C-8FFA7F7FE38F@mnot.net> <68295146-6858-483D-9F0B-5AAFDD4E2205@bblfish.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <82572050-0E6B-4A08-94DD-918528284446@mnot.net> Cc: Stefan Eissing , Atom WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History -02 Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:14:23 -0700 To: Henry Story X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 19/07/2005, at 2:04 AM, Henry Story wrote: > Clearly the archive feed will work best if archive documents, once > completed (containing a > given number of entries) never change. Readers of the archive will > have a simple way to know when > to stop reading: there should never be a need to re-read an archive > page - they just never change. > > The archive provides a history of the feed's evolution. Earlier > changes to the resources > described by the feed will be found in older archive documents and > newer changes in the later > ones. One should expect some entries to be referenced in multiple > archive feed documents. These > will be entries that have been changed over time. > > Archives *should not* change. I think any librarian will agree with > that. I very much agree that this is the ideal that should be striven for. However, there are some practical problems with doing it in this proposal. First of all, I'm very keen to make it possible to implement history with currently-deployed feed-generating software; e.g., Moveable Type. MT isn't capable of generating a feed where changed entries are repeated at the top out of the box, AFAIK. Even if it (and other software) were, it would be very annoying to people whose feed software doesn't understand this extension; their "show me the latest entries in the blog" feed would become "show me the latest changed entries in the blog", and every time an entry was modified or spell-checked, it would show up at the top. So, it's a matter of enabling graceful deployment. Most of the reason I have the fh:stateful flag in there is to allow people to explicitly say "I don't want you to do history on this feed" because so many aggregators are already doing history in their own way. The underlying problem, I think, is that different feeds have different semantics. Some will want every change to be included, others won't; for example, a blog probably doesn't need every single spelling correction propagated. There are some fundamental questions about the nature of a feed that need to be answered (and, more importantly, agreed upon) before we get there; for example, we now say that the ordering isn't significant by default; while that's nice, most software is going to infer something from it, so we need an extension to say 'sort by this', *and* have that extension widely deployed. I tried to approach these problems when I wrote the original proposal for this in Pace form; I got strong pushback on defining a single model for a feed's state. Given that, as well as the deployment issues, I intentionally de-coupled the state reconstruction (this proposal) from the state model (e.g., ordering, deletion, exact semantics of an archive feed, etc.), so that they could be separately defined. Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 23 14:47:59 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DwP2V-000361-1T for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:47:59 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA13209 for ; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:47:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6NIbWmN040525; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:37:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6NIbW80040524; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:37:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [205.237.194.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6NIbVsH040518 for ; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:37:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.3] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE725A3210; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:37:30 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <42DE8D72.7090205@cegetel.net> References: <42DE8D72.7090205@cegetel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) X-Priority: 3)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <8BE10F85-AF28-442C-A606-A88084C659AC@mnot.net> Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-01.txt Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:37:28 -0700 To: Thomas Broyer X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 20/07/2005, at 10:44 AM, Thomas Broyer wrote: > I was actually wondering why non-stateful feeds couldn't have > archives: > in the "This month's Top 10 records" feed, why couldn't I link to > "Last > month's Top 10 records"? > If this kind of links are not dealt within feed-history, then I > suggest > splitting the draft into two (three) parts: > 1. fh:stateful: whether a feed is stateful or not > 2. fh:prev: state reconstruction of a stateful feed > 3. (published later) fh:????: link to archives of a non-stateful > feed > (no, I actually don't want such a split, I'd rather deal with the "3." > in feed-history, no matter how) > > If we want to solve this "issue" using a distinct element (fh:prev if > fh:stateful=true, fh:???? if fh:stateful=false), is fh:stateful still > needed? The presence of fh:prev would be equivalent to > fh:stateful=true, > the presence of fh:???? would be equivalent to fh:stateful=false, the > absence of both fh:prev and fh:???? would be equivalent to the absence > of fh:stateful, and the presence of both fh:prev and fh:???? would > be an > error. > This is off course true only if fh:prev must be accompanied by > fh:stateful=true. The question is: is it useful to have fh:stateful if > you have no link to any kind of archive? My main use case for it was to advise aggregators that currently keep state by default (without being about to walk backwards) that this isn't appropriate for some feeds. E.g., NetNewsWire, Shrook and many other aggregators all automatically "remember" a feed's past entries that it's seen; sometimes, this is undesirable. Maybe that's biting off too much at once... >> Hmm, that seems awfully complex (and hard to grasp -- but maybe >> it's just me :) just to avoid a round trip. > > One, or a few more... depending on how you archive your entries (daily > archive document, weekly archive document, N entries per archive > document, etc.), how you publish your entries in the subscription feed > (N entries in the feed, or only those entries published during the N > last days), and who frequently you post. > Your subscription feed entries can overlap several archive feeds > and the > fh:prev jump from "archive2.atom" to "archive5.atom". Using "updated", > you can avoid 3 round trips in that case. > > ...or too many: what if I switch URL addressing scheme (e.g. from > "archive1.atom"..."archiveN.atom" to > "2005/January.atom"..."2005/June.atom")? > A "dumb" reader will retrieve back every archive feed, as it has never > ever dereferenced the URIs. Well, if you change your archive scheme, you may change other things too; without more trust between the client and publisher, it probably *should* go back and fetch everything. This is where client-side throttling (as discussed before; e.g., "do you really want to go back that far?") would come into effect. There are subtle issues introduced when you do time-based comparison across a network; synchronisation between clocks come into play, and it gets tricky, if not impossible, to specify correct behaviour. Couldn't much the same effect be achieved by saying that implementations can use other mechanisms (e.g., updated in the archive itself, the id in the archive) to ascertain whether it's seen something before? You'd still have one extra fetch, but that's not nearly as big a deal as walking back the entire feed (which I agree would be a problem). Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 23 19:47:49 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DwTif-0003zB-54 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 19:47:49 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA27716 for ; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 19:47:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6NNeJiA060808; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:40:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6NNeJVl060807; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:40:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta07-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mta07-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.47]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6NNeH99060798 for ; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:40:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamta12-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mta07-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050723234011.WOYE27585.mta07-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamta12-winn.ispmail.ntl.com> for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 00:40:11 +0100 Received: from cpc3-stok1-5-0-cust143.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([82.11.128.143]) by aamta12-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050723234011.OCJB9998.aamta12-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@cpc3-stok1-5-0-cust143.bagu.cable.ntl.com> for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 00:40:11 +0100 Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 00:40:09 +0100 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.51.9) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <165055229.20050724004009@djpowell.net> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: atom:rights inheritance? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry for the pedantry, but I'm trying to update my Atom/RDF thing, so pedantry is required... The inheritance rules for atom:rights, are different to the ones for atom:author. Is this intentional? Are they supposed to be treated differently? See: > If an atom:entry element does not contain an atom:rights element, then > the atom:rights element of the containing atom:feed element, if > present, is considered to apply to the entry. vs: > If an atom:entry element does not contain atom:author elements, then > the atom:author elements of the contained atom:source element are > considered to apply. In an Atom Feed Document, the atom:author > elements of the containing atom:feed element are considered to apply > to the entry if there are no atom:author elements in the locations > described above. -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 24 04:26:12 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DwboK-0002oO-AF for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 04:26:12 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA12849 for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 04:26:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6O8Hcxm062702; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 01:17:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6O8HcSW062701; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 01:17:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mailhost.netweaver.net (mailhost.netweaver.net [213.160.118.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6O8HZ7L062664 for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 01:17:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davep@dpawson.co.uk) Received: (qmail 22866 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2005 08:17:33 -0000 Received: from dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk (HELO ?192.168.2.7?) (davep@dpawson.co.uk@81.6.251.105) by 0 with SMTP; 24 Jul 2005 08:17:33 -0000 Subject: Re: Feed History -02 From: Dave Pawson Reply-To: davep@dpawson.co.uk To: Atom syntax In-Reply-To: <82572050-0E6B-4A08-94DD-918528284446@mnot.net> References: <3E6C7917-B853-4DCF-A33E-7B7EDC9677B5@mnot.net> <3BD510EC-6549-4BE4-A962-D571A318FBB4@bblfish.net> <42DBE0ED.7060100@gmail.com> <1f9ad4d4c8a87d7a20f7deb4cbf5479f@greenbytes.de> <141BC3A3-3E8B-43BD-A65C-8FFA7F7FE38F@mnot.net> <68295146-6858-483D-9F0B-5AAFDD4E2205@bblfish.net> <82572050-0E6B-4A08-94DD-918528284446@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 09:17:33 +0100 Message-Id: <1122193053.3363.7.camel@marge> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.2 (2.2.2-5) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 2005-07-23 at 09:14 -0700, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > Archives *should not* change. I think any librarian will agree with > > that. > > I very much agree that this is the ideal that should be striven for. > The underlying problem, I think, is that different feeds have > different semantics. I think that's the bottom line Mark. No matter what, people are going to do different things with 'history'. Trying to pin down how it should all work seems to increase the complexity by an order, never a good thing IMHO. How about, you want my history, you make of it what you will. I only guarantee its valid atom? At least that way, processing older feed material can develop based on a sound (and clearly understood) foundation. regards DaveP From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 24 04:47:01 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dwc8T-0006ek-N8 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 04:47:01 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA13630 for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 04:46:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6O8e0BV070493; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 01:40:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6O8e0Mt070492; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 01:40:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.200]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6O8dxPN070457 for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 01:39:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i28so399275nzi for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 01:39:53 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=nlKonJTXvkN86wTTe5mQni0kiVG/KwIBfsXPuICYSkDzDUccb4p6qD0fFfDlCZ6NvVkvp1GayfGF3NsScry/+q2a0gOSO3PLaoLZZki1BERaq/QxIm49iARwgHLv4JxydDCOunrtpD9OV9CSzm1v7bk7UUKDBz64VJvcTab6Np0= Received: by 10.36.7.15 with SMTP id 15mr1125719nzg; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 01:39:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.157.4 with HTTP; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 01:39:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0507240139240cc8fa@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 10:39:53 +0200 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: atom-syntax@imc.org, atom-owl@googlegroups.com, semantic-web@w3.org Subject: Atom RDF/OWL models Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6O8e0PN070485 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi folks, I'm trying to collect a list of mappings Atom <-> RDF/OWL. Anyone that has such a thing, can you please drop me a pointer to the latest version(s) of any schemas, XSLT or whatever you might happen to have lying around. Notes on how current they are, or anything else of relevance appreciated. So far I've got the following: Henry Story's material, mostly (I think) looking for a direct mapping with a Atom-specific vocabulary (there's also his BlogEd material, on using Atom/OWL as the internal representation in a blogging tools). I'm not sure, but this might be OWL DL. Most recent date mentioned is 2004-11-09, not sure which is the latest Atom draft covered. http://bblfish.net/work/atom-owl/ David Powell's full and fairly verbose RDF schema, again I think it's an Atom-specific vocab : http://djpowell.net/atomrdf/0.1/ Dates from 2005-03-22, covers draft-05. it can be viewed through a nifty little styled-TriX converter: http://djpowell.net/rdftrix/ Dave Beckett's got support for Atom 0.3 in Redland (RDF toolkit), specifically in the Raptor Parser kit - he's currently looking to update this to 1.0: http://librdf.org/raptor/ Mark Nottingham's talked about Atom/OWL in the context of his sparta.py simple API for RDF, not sure if he's done a schema: http://www.mnot.net/blog/2005/03/17/sparta Mark Woodman has done some work with Atom + Jena, producing JavaBeans. http://inkblots.markwoodman.com/index.php?p=13 My own notes+ XSLT+schema, old old old, pre-0.3 I think. I'll update all this asap with whatever I can gather. http://semtext.org/atom/ There are also some very early ones around Sam's blog somewhere - I seem to remember one that attempted to map all the Atom constructs to existing vocabs, DC etc. (I've a feeling that put a lot of folks off RDF/XML ;-) I think Aaron S. and Norm W. have both a mapping or two. Bet sbp's got one too. http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/ Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 24 08:53:41 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DwfzA-0006mV-1x for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:53:41 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA25352 for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:53:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6OCidM3053823; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 05:44:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6OCidwc053822; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 05:44:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from relay.pair.com (relay00.pair.com [209.68.1.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6OCicgk053808 for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 05:44:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from iand@internetalchemy.org) Received: (qmail 8087 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2005 12:44:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.107?) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 24 Jul 2005 12:44:38 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 213.104.222.160 Message-ID: <42E38D36.9050603@internetalchemy.org> Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:44:38 +0100 From: Ian Davis User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-owl@googlegroups.com CC: atom-syntax@imc.org, semantic-web@w3.org Subject: Re: Atom RDF/OWL models References: <1f2ed5cd0507240139240cc8fa@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd0507240139240cc8fa@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 24/07/2005 09:39, Danny Ayers wrote: > I'm trying to collect a list of mappings Atom <-> RDF/OWL. Anyone that > has such a thing, can you please drop me a pointer to the latest > version(s) of any schemas, XSLT or whatever you might happen to have > lying around. Notes on how current they are, or anything else of > relevance appreciated. Don't forget danbri's Atom/RDF subset[1]. It's not a translation but it's worth attempting to interpret it using one of them. Ian [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2005Jul/0014.html -- http://internetalchemy.org | http://purl.org/NET/iand Working on... Silkworm From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 24 15:57:30 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DwmbK-00049o-79 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:57:30 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA20032 for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:57:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6OJnr4R059899; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:49:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6OJnr5u059898; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:49:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail11.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail11.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.27]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6OJnqCZ059887 for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:49:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 2020 messnum 11062103 invoked from network[83.70.29.246/83-70-29-246.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 24 Jul 2005 19:49:46 -0000 Received: from 83-70-29-246.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (83.70.29.246) by mail11.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 2020) with SMTP; 24 Jul 2005 19:49:46 -0000 Message-ID: <42E3F0D8.6000707@dehora.net> Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:49:44 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Notes on the latest draft - xml:base References: <20050721181305.55703.qmail@web42202.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050721181305.55703.qmail@web42202.mail.yahoo.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.92.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Cerra wrote: > I'd solve it in the same manner that XML namespaces solved the multiple context > problem: by providing a default context as well as explicitly named contexts. > The default context works the same way as xml:base or the the default xmlns > works now. Explicit contexts would work simular to prefixed namespaces > (xmlns:prefix). I suggest reconsidering. It's not clear default namespaces solve anything and in the places where they don't solve anything they are hardly likely to be accused of inducing robustness. If the best of two years on the Atom WG and years of working with XML teaches me anything it's this - format defaults are surprisingly tricky to get right. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 25 05:40:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DwzRa-0002qT-Ug for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 05:40:19 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA01554 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 05:40:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6P9X2Fn021422; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 02:33:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6P9X2pL021421; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 02:33:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6P9X1xS021375 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 02:33:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6P9WAgM012200 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:32:21 +0100 (BST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: Atom Syntax From: Graham Subject: Atom error pages Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:32:11 +0100 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's far too late for this, but how should Atom servers produce/ clients deal with error pages? Feedster regularly changes its search results feed to a single entry "Search results temporarily offline" feed document (RSS guid "http://www.feedster.com/"), and I think served with HTTP status 200. This seems the wrong behavior for so many reasons. What should they be doing in Atom? Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 25 06:03:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dwzni-0006k4-CD for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 06:03:10 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA02744 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 06:03:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6P9pud2028496; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 02:51:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6P9puPR028495; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 02:51:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail12.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail12.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.28]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6P9pte2028458 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 02:51:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 28835 messnum 5759032 invoked from network[83.70.29.246/83-70-29-246.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 25 Jul 2005 09:51:49 -0000 Received: from 83-70-29-246.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (83.70.29.246) by mail12.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 28835) with SMTP; 25 Jul 2005 09:51:49 -0000 Message-ID: <42E4B633.8010709@dehora.net> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:51:47 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Atom error pages References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.92.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > > It's far too late for this, but how should Atom servers produce/ clients > deal with error pages? Feedster regularly changes its search results > feed to a single entry "Search results temporarily offline" feed > document (RSS guid "http://www.feedster.com/"), and I think served with > HTTP status 200. This seems the wrong behavior for so many reasons. > What should they be doing in Atom? Serving it with a 503. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 25 06:15:56 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dx004-0000uV-Ef for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 06:15:56 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA03570 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 06:15:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PA7wus034971; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 03:07:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6PA7wC6034970; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 03:07:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.200]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PA7v6k034935 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 03:07:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i28so465300nzi for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 03:07:52 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=YXh0IFoor8QbMhCYmrZct/uEzSzdnXed3mbZP2gK9dJsiu44ad074ByHdDXdJRUr9jDNLMB6F91NdK4HKAhUNeDUHTl5d9J7curLEfu/gU/ngGgtjHdfOphLs6r3Yf3nleYJK4RNMXoovsshez3uWoWCNT+HNXh6WzAjFZJe/rY= Received: by 10.36.71.12 with SMTP id t12mr1935179nza; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 03:07:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.157.4 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 03:07:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd05072503071ddcf02f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:07:52 +0200 From: Danny Ayers Reply-To: Danny Ayers To: atom-owl@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Atom RDF/OWL models Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org, semantic-web@w3.org In-Reply-To: <42E38D36.9050603@internetalchemy.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <1f2ed5cd0507240139240cc8fa@mail.gmail.com> <42E38D36.9050603@internetalchemy.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6PA7w6k034964 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/24/05, Ian Davis wrote: > Don't forget danbri's Atom/RDF subset[1]. It's not a translation but > it's worth attempting to interpret it using one of them. Thanks Ian, I assumed everyone already knew about that ;-) Anyhow I've dumped the list onto the ESW Wiki: http://esw.w3.org/topic/AtomRdf Additions and gardening appreciated. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 25 06:15:52 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dx000-0000uH-DO for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 06:15:52 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA03552 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 06:15:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PA7Yf0034839; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 03:07:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6PA7YpP034838; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 03:07:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PA7X18034804 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 03:07:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6PA55mM027963; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:05:26 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <42E4B633.8010709@dehora.net> References: <42E4B633.8010709@dehora.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Atom Syntax From: Graham Subject: Re: Atom error pages Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:05:06 +0100 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6PA7X18034832 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id GAA03552 On 25 Jul 2005, at 10:51 am, Bill de h=D3ra wrote: >> It's far too late for this, but how should Atom servers produce/ =20 >> clients >> deal with error pages? Feedster regularly changes its search results >> feed to a single entry "Search results temporarily offline" feed >> document (RSS guid "http://www.feedster.com/"), and I think =20 >> served with >> HTTP status 200. This seems the wrong behavior for so many reasons. >> What should they be doing in Atom? And what should the client do? (assuming a rich client that keeps an archive of entries) Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 25 07:29:57 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dx19h-0007td-SA for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 07:29:57 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA09134 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 07:29:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PAJxlq039634; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 03:19:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6PAJx8s039633; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 03:19:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail03.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail03.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.19]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6PAJwU3039573 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 03:19:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 26453 messnum 277321 invoked from network[83.70.29.246/83-70-29-246.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 25 Jul 2005 10:19:52 -0000 Received: from 83-70-29-246.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (83.70.29.246) by mail03.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 26453) with SMTP; 25 Jul 2005 10:19:52 -0000 Message-ID: <42E4BCC7.9010603@dehora.net> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:19:51 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Atom error pages References: <42E4B633.8010709@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.92.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id HAA09134 Graham wrote: > On 25 Jul 2005, at 10:51 am, Bill de h=D3ra wrote: >=20 >>> It's far too late for this, but how should Atom servers produce/=20 >>> clients >>> deal with error pages? Feedster regularly changes its search results >>> feed to a single entry "Search results temporarily offline" feed >>> document (RSS guid "http://www.feedster.com/"), and I think served >>> with >>> HTTP status 200. This seems the wrong behavior for so many reasons. >>> What should they be doing in Atom? >=20 >=20 > And what should the client do? Ah. Display the returned entity body + the retry-after header. Or show a default from the client if there's none. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 25 07:42:57 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dx1MH-0001ex-LG for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 07:42:57 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA09804 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 07:42:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PBYNdv068433; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 04:34:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6PBYNFH068432; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 04:34:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6PBYLPO068389 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 04:34:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 25 Jul 2005 11:34:12 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-248-36.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.248.36] by mail.gmx.net (mp017) with SMTP; 25 Jul 2005 13:34:12 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:38:45 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Atom error pages Message-ID: <20050725113845.GC24832@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <42E4B633.8010709@dehora.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id HAA09804 * Graham [2005-07-25 12:20]: > And what should the client do? >=20 > (assuming a rich client that keeps an archive of entries) It should not consider the archive affected in any way. 5xx are transient errors. If it keeps a record of such failures at all, they are not to be considered part of the feed content. There is nothing that 5xx has to do with the content of pages that might at other times be available at the same URL. It should just indicate to the user (or whatever is downstream) that an HTTP-level error occured, via whatever means would be appropriate. As Bill says, a desktop aggregator would usually show the HTML page returned with the error or a default =E2=80=93 but of course it should under no circumstances appear as if this was part of the feed content. This is really just ordinary interpretation of HTTP. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 25 07:55:43 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dx1Yd-0004CE-JC for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 07:55:43 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA10731 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 07:55:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PBnAa4073749; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 04:49:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6PBnARu073748; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 04:49:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail04.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail04.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6PBn9pP073710 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 04:49:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 93582 messnum 5273695 invoked from network[83.70.29.246/83-70-29-246.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 25 Jul 2005 11:49:03 -0000 Received: from 83-70-29-246.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (83.70.29.246) by mail04.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 93582) with SMTP; 25 Jul 2005 11:49:03 -0000 Message-ID: <42E4D1AD.1090105@dehora.net> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:49:01 +0100 From: =?UTF-8?B?QmlsbCBkZSBow5NyYQ==?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Atom error pages References: <42E4B633.8010709@dehora.net> <20050725113845.GC24832@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20050725113845.GC24832@klangraum> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.92.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id HAA10731 A. Pagaltzis wrote: > * Graham [2005-07-25 12:20]: >=20 >>And what should the client do? >> >>(assuming a rich client that keeps an archive of entries) >=20 >=20 > It should not consider the archive affected in any way. 5xx are > transient errors. If it keeps a record of such failures at all, > they are not to be considered part of the feed content. There is > nothing that 5xx has to do with the content of pages that might > at other times be available at the same URL. >=20 > It should just indicate to the user (or whatever is downstream) > that an HTTP-level error occured, via whatever means would be > appropriate. As Bill says, a desktop aggregator would usually > show the HTML page returned with the error or a default =E2=80=93 but o= f > course it should under no circumstances appear as if this was > part of the feed content. >=20 > This is really just ordinary interpretation of HTTP. I might see where Graham is coming from. Graham are you talking a case where the feed/entries are being elided with not-available messages? cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 25 08:36:26 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dx2C1-0004Ia-Oa for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:36:26 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA14904 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:36:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PCVQkr090265; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 05:31:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6PCVQY7090264; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 05:31:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PCVPiZ090225 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 05:31:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6PCTxki005996; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:30:05 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <42E4D1AD.1090105@dehora.net> References: <42E4B633.8010709@dehora.net> <20050725113845.GC24832@klangraum> <42E4D1AD.1090105@dehora.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <4CFCFD54-A880-4B84-BEC0-5AF952704C52@mac.com> Cc: Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Graham Subject: Re: Atom error pages Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:29:58 +0100 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I might see where Graham is coming from. Graham are you talking a case > where the feed/entries are being elided with not-available messages? I think so. The problem with using HTTP error codes is that in many clients the result is far less pretty. For example, in Shrook you get a warning sign next to the feed name, which when clicked produces a generic error message for the HTTP code. The thing is, publishers want errors to be prettier and better explained. Returning a 200 and a feed document containing an error message entry produces predictable results in all clients, with the side effect of polluting the feed history. The results of doing both (an HTTP error code and a custom Atom error document) need to be predictable. Whereas most web browsers will display a custom HTML error page (IE excepted), most Atom clients won't do anything with the body of a non-200 response (I think). Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 25 09:31:39 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dx33T-0001aG-GJ for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:31:39 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA19494 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:31:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PDKWQK008080; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 06:20:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6PDKWsB008079; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 06:20:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.193]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PDKUT2008017 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 06:20:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 50so888841wri for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 06:20:25 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=slF25ryjbqSWtE2za5CG0ELyOnJjzYFAcHqoc980+CmCyXIbVQ/fZ/jAmHC/2VzidxBwzHBDrrvyc2HMsNem7xaakEqj4IrES0syl1GAefLWgKg22bn9UXu1mJDsHGU2/fG6aG3mn88jriFwq7nYKAPUrgG0V81Kx3YMIJBBZUw= Received: by 10.54.120.12 with SMTP id s12mr2187242wrc; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 06:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.71.13 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 06:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c505072506204d02a555@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:20:25 -0400 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: Robert Sayre To: Graham Subject: Re: Atom error pages Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= , Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: <4CFCFD54-A880-4B84-BEC0-5AF952704C52@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <42E4B633.8010709@dehora.net> <20050725113845.GC24832@klangraum> <42E4D1AD.1090105@dehora.net> <4CFCFD54-A880-4B84-BEC0-5AF952704C52@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6PDKVT2008064 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/25/05, Graham wrote: > The results of doing both (an HTTP error code and a custom Atom error > document) need to be predictable. Whereas most web browsers will > display a custom HTML error page (IE excepted), most Atom clients > won't do anything with the body of a non-200 response (I think). The same problem exists in the protocol. Right now, you'll see typepad.com return a document that looks like this: some text... We could have them return Atom entries instead. *shrugs Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 25 14:02:55 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dx7Hz-0005Wx-Bt for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:02:55 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA11070 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:02:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PHv0mX055810; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:57:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6PHv0le055809; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:57:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.197]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PHuxIK055803 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:56:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id a41so504260rng for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:56:59 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=B25lxZW2zculg9it+RW7VP9H+mo+suOS+mmnD4L/dufW5/9ns0X8Y4gAJrlRon2xH0IKgBG8xwX9f8jw1GbekoCLoGCIfXQGxViY2GuHRz2HtINrkwBhuGT3Y4Bgreyck/AXP6/sTIB51f36rATIvo/8UB556oorsxF1nYvktZU= Received: by 10.38.74.33 with SMTP id w33mr1667115rna; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 75sm288920rnb.2005.07.25.10.56.57; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42E527E3.2030907@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:56:51 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham CC: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Atom error pages References: <42E4B633.8010709@dehora.net> <20050725113845.GC24832@klangraum> <42E4D1AD.1090105@dehora.net> <4CFCFD54-A880-4B84-BEC0-5AF952704C52@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <4CFCFD54-A880-4B84-BEC0-5AF952704C52@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a problem that is easily generalizable to a lot more than just Atom apps. I've been thinking lately that a somewhat generic "standard" XML format for reporting errors associated with a common stylesheet for rendering may be a good approach to handle error responses rather than false entries in the feed or the rather ad hoc approaches I've been seeing. Perhaps something along the lines of: HTTP/1.1 5xx Some Error Content-Type: application/error+xml Content-Length: nnnn {scheme defined error code} {human readable summary of the error {URI indicating an action taken by the server in response to the error} {namespaced extension elements}* Examples of action element values could include URI's that indicate that the failure was logged, the IP address of the requester was recorded, related activities were rolled back, the Earth exploded, etc Thoughts? - James Graham wrote: > >> I might see where Graham is coming from. Graham are you talking a case >> where the feed/entries are being elided with not-available messages? > > > I think so. The problem with using HTTP error codes is that in many > clients the result is far less pretty. For example, in Shrook you get > a warning sign next to the feed name, which when clicked produces a > generic error message for the HTTP code. > > The thing is, publishers want errors to be prettier and better > explained. Returning a 200 and a feed document containing an error > message entry produces predictable results in all clients, with the > side effect of polluting the feed history. > > The results of doing both (an HTTP error code and a custom Atom error > document) need to be predictable. Whereas most web browsers will > display a custom HTML error page (IE excepted), most Atom clients > won't do anything with the body of a non-200 response (I think). > > Graham > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 25 14:27:36 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dx7fs-0001qv-MW for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:27:36 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA12564 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:27:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PIL2s4057892; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:21:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6PIL2jx057891; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:21:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail13.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail13.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.29]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6PIL1m6057876 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:21:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 86912 messnum 4215322 invoked from network[83.70.29.246/83-70-29-246.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 25 Jul 2005 18:20:55 -0000 Received: from 83-70-29-246.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (83.70.29.246) by mail13.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 86912) with SMTP; 25 Jul 2005 18:20:55 -0000 Message-ID: <42E52D84.1080601@dehora.net> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:20:52 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Atom error pages References: <42E4B633.8010709@dehora.net> <20050725113845.GC24832@klangraum> <42E4D1AD.1090105@dehora.net> <4CFCFD54-A880-4B84-BEC0-5AF952704C52@mac.com> <42E527E3.2030907@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <42E527E3.2030907@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.92.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James M Snell wrote: > HTTP/1.1 5xx Some Error > Content-Type: application/error+xml > Content-Length: nnnn > > > {scheme defined > error code} > {human readable summary of the error > {URI indicating an action taken by the server in response to > the error} > {namespaced extension elements}* > What should happen: - when the http response is 200 and the code in the XML is '503'? - when the http response is 200 and the code in the XML is 'snafu'? - when the http response is 400 and the code in the XML is 'java.lang.ClassNotFoundException'? Putting codes in two places and/or two layers in a response raise similiar issues to putting methods in two places and/or two layers in a request. In the general case - what should happen when the http response is X and the code in the XML is 'Y' - I think is a non-trivial problem. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 25 15:00:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dx8BO-0008AS-9Z for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:00:10 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14532 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:00:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PIvmWl061690; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:57:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6PIvmHA061689; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:57:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.196]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PIvlkv061683 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:57:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id a41so520204rng for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:57:47 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=a0H047AansPHS/TlMPoTZEy5ciKZ/uzaqo1nxBrXCiDbRG2JhN8nHmlQE3udqQwJGbaDjMmzZnAyxxr619SNZ/XGKqttvXCfk4O/vaYVfAA9oZFjlYivVsYIeWdPh5wRfDzgRpxuoiNDYoaEEjuQnwHzSMHV3kmrdIdGoWG4lQ4= Received: by 10.38.13.64 with SMTP id 64mr1005515rnm; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:57:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 74sm352400rnb.2005.07.25.11.57.45; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:57:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42E5361E.6020709@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:57:34 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Atom error pages References: <42E4B633.8010709@dehora.net> <20050725113845.GC24832@klangraum> <42E4D1AD.1090105@dehora.net> <4CFCFD54-A880-4B84-BEC0-5AF952704C52@mac.com> <42E527E3.2030907@gmail.com> <42E52D84.1080601@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: <42E52D84.1080601@dehora.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id PAA14532 Bill de h=D3ra wrote: >James M Snell wrote: > > =20 > >> HTTP/1.1 5xx Some Error >> Content-Type: application/error+xml >> Content-Length: nnnn >> >> >> {scheme defined >>error code} >> {human readable summary of the error >> {URI indicating an action taken by the server in response to >>the error} >> {namespaced extension elements}* >> >> =20 >> > > >What should happen: > > - when the http response is 200 and the code in the XML is '503'? > > - when the http response is 200 and the code in the XML is 'snafu'? > > - when the http response is 400 and the code in the XML is >'java.lang.ClassNotFoundException'? > > >Putting codes in two places and/or two layers in a response raise >similiar issues to putting methods in two places and/or two layers in a >request. In the general case - what should happen when the http response >is X and the code in the XML is 'Y' - I think is a non-trivial problem. > > =20 > Yes, I'm struggling with this also. Part of my brain wants to make=20 optional and strictly informational in favor of the HTTP=20 response code. However, another part of my brain wants this mechanism=20 to be generally reusable across other transports (e.g. XMPP) making it=20 difficult to rely on consistent error codes in the lower layers. I=20 think the clear solution is that the HTTP response code should take=20 precedence in this case. If the value does not match up with=20 that code, then the content producer is just being silly and the=20 consumer has to figure out on their own what to do. Does it make sense to require that MUST NOT be returned when=20 the HTTP response code is anything but 4xx or 5xx? - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 25 15:00:26 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dx8Be-0008J8-1M for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:00:26 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14573 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:00:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PIsCW4061454; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:54:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6PIsC22061453; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:54:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6PIsA8l061434 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:54:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 25 Jul 2005 18:54:01 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-248-36.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.248.36] by mail.gmx.net (mp023) with SMTP; 25 Jul 2005 20:54:01 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:58:38 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Atom error pages Message-ID: <20050725185838.GA26019@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <42E4B633.8010709@dehora.net> <20050725113845.GC24832@klangraum> <42E4D1AD.1090105@dehora.net> <4CFCFD54-A880-4B84-BEC0-5AF952704C52@mac.com> <42E527E3.2030907@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42E527E3.2030907@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id PAA14573 * James M Snell [2005-07-25 20:11]: > Thoughts? I kind of like it, but I=E2=80=99m not sure it would be the best choice in all cases, and thus doubt it would gain much traction. In the case of Atom, I think it would be nice if we could have producers generate Atom Entry Documents to go with the response, and have consumers treat this as a transient entry, to be remembered only until they next refresh the feed. The entry and its associated HTTP status should be quite enough for most use cases. Heck, even having user agents allow viewing the (usually HTML) document currently commonly returned with an error response would be adequate for probably the majority of cases. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 25 15:24:57 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dx8ZN-0004eW-E2 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:24:57 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA16991 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:24:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PJC85g062706; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:12:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6PJC8Y0062705; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:12:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PJC7sH062697 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:12:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 32659 invoked by uid 17064); 25 Jul 2005 19:12:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.3]) ([83.112.235.110]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 25 Jul 2005 19:12:06 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <645E22F4-7DDD-497A-A08A-5709CDA49492@bblfish.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: Atom WG From: Henry Story Subject: spam on wiki Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:11:55 +0200 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following page has been badly spammed http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/AtomOWL and it looks like the fact that it was changed never appeared in the RSS feed. Henry From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 25 15:32:18 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dx8gU-0006LG-Rq for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:32:18 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA17500 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:32:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PJPtir063878; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:25:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6PJPti1063877; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:25:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6PJPrTG063868 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:25:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 25 Jul 2005 19:25:44 -0000 Received: from xdsl-81-173-173-185.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [81.173.173.185] by mail.gmx.net (mp017) with SMTP; 25 Jul 2005 21:25:44 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:30:23 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Atom error pages Message-ID: <20050725193023.GB26019@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <42E4B633.8010709@dehora.net> <20050725113845.GC24832@klangraum> <42E4D1AD.1090105@dehora.net> <4CFCFD54-A880-4B84-BEC0-5AF952704C52@mac.com> <42E527E3.2030907@gmail.com> <42E52D84.1080601@dehora.net> <42E5361E.6020709@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42E5361E.6020709@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id PAA17500 * James M Snell [2005-07-25 21:06]: > However, another part of my brain wants this mechanism to be > generally reusable across other transports (e.g. XMPP) making > it difficult to rely on consistent error codes in the lower > layers. I think the clear solution is that the HTTP response > code should take precedence in this case. And then you get a mess like we now have with the charset of an HTML document served over HTTP. Admittedly, that is complicated particularly by the existence of the ill-begotten abomination. But the lesson we learned is that the accuracy of metadata is inversely proportional to its distance from the data, and I don=E2=80=99t think there are exceptions to this. Whenever you duplicate things in multiple layers, the most application- specific layer should always have highest precedence; all else is asking for endless headaches. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 25 15:55:58 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dx93O-0002FN-4B for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:55:58 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA19238 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:55:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PJpJ28065699; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:51:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6PJpJTQ065698; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:51:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail10.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail10.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.26]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6PJpID9065683 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:51:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 72608 messnum 6682646 invoked from network[83.70.29.246/83-70-29-246.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 25 Jul 2005 19:51:12 -0000 Received: from 83-70-29-246.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (83.70.29.246) by mail10.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 72608) with SMTP; 25 Jul 2005 19:51:12 -0000 Message-ID: <42E542AD.7080904@dehora.net> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:51:09 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Atom error pages References: <42E4B633.8010709@dehora.net> <20050725113845.GC24832@klangraum> <42E4D1AD.1090105@dehora.net> <4CFCFD54-A880-4B84-BEC0-5AF952704C52@mac.com> <42E527E3.2030907@gmail.com> <42E52D84.1080601@dehora.net> <42E5361E.6020709@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <42E5361E.6020709@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.92.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id PAA19238 James M Snell wrote: > Bill de h=D3ra wrote: >=20 >> James M Snell wrote: >> >> =20 >> >>> HTTP/1.1 5xx Some Error >>> Content-Type: application/error+xml >>> Content-Length: nnnn >>> >>> >>> {scheme defined >>> error code} >>> {human readable summary of the error >>> {URI indicating an action taken by the server in response t= o >>> the error} >>> {namespaced extension elements}* >>> >>> =20 >> >> >> >> What should happen: >> >> - when the http response is 200 and the code in the XML is '503'? >> >> - when the http response is 200 and the code in the XML is 'snafu'? >> >> - when the http response is 400 and the code in the XML is >> 'java.lang.ClassNotFoundException'? >> >> >> Putting codes in two places and/or two layers in a response raise >> similiar issues to putting methods in two places and/or two layers in = a >> request. In the general case - what should happen when the http respon= se >> is X and the code in the XML is 'Y' - I think is a non-trivial problem. >> >> =20 >> > Yes, I'm struggling with this also. Part of my brain wants to make > optional and strictly informational in favor of the HTTP > response code. However, another part of my brain wants this mechanism > to be generally reusable across other transports (e.g. XMPP) making it > difficult to rely on consistent error codes in the lower layers. I > think the clear solution is that the HTTP response code should take > precedence in this case. =20 Precedent: That didn't work out for content-encoding. I think SOAP faulting enables clients to ignore the HTTP code altogether. I don't know how valuable reusable error codes of this kind are - my assumption has been they're specific to application protocols (which is wandering into protocol neutrality transport/transfer territory). > If the value does not match up with > that code, then the content producer is just being silly and the > consumer has to figure out on their own what to do. My guess is that they'll take the served XML at face value and drop the HTTP code. In any case, putting consumers in a position to have to figure out what to do, by design, is not sound, I would want to be able to emit an 'Indecipherable Architecture Error' - but to who? > Does it make sense to require that MUST NOT be returned when > the HTTP response code is anything but 4xx or 5xx? It does, but it doesn't give enough constraints to narrow the problem. The problem is still "what should happen when the http response is X and the code in the XML is 'Y'?" You only need one value for each to reduce robustness. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 25 16:22:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dx9Si-0000nC-JV for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:22:09 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA21060 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:22:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PKG9Ge067765; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:16:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6PKG9Kt067764; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:16:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.192]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PKG85K067736 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:16:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 50so955039wri for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:16:02 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=WVczNOJ/mCjHjJDbr2N9fSSfD8qKEg6+1UP7p1haOhDObPRPfzAyVj2kvRUidZn4rKIA1yQ44bJWLrwDls6Dv7AbqMx6828V7I54bB/j6ZuiuCuJ9XuABI8Vbkf63THmMMJHWFEwPV8VJ2l27Vp1S0/gqlsFFDfewIYyIyKOoKs= Received: by 10.54.69.12 with SMTP id r12mr2323301wra; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.71.13 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c505072513164ebd249a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:16:02 -0400 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: Robert Sayre To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= Subject: Re: Atom error pages Cc: Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: <42E542AD.7080904@dehora.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <42E4B633.8010709@dehora.net> <20050725113845.GC24832@klangraum> <42E4D1AD.1090105@dehora.net> <4CFCFD54-A880-4B84-BEC0-5AF952704C52@mac.com> <42E527E3.2030907@gmail.com> <42E52D84.1080601@dehora.net> <42E5361E.6020709@gmail.com> <42E542AD.7080904@dehora.net> X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6PKG85K067758 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id QAA21060 On 7/25/05, Bill de h=D3ra wrote: >=20 > James M Snell wrote: > > Does it make sense to require that MUST NOT be returned whe= n > > the HTTP response code is anything but 4xx or 5xx? >=20 > It does, but it doesn't give enough constraints to narrow the problem. > The problem is still "what should happen when the http response is X an= d > the code in the XML is 'Y'?" You only need one value for each to reduc= e > robustness. There's no special version of HTML for error pages. Let's use an Atom Entry Document. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 25 16:31:26 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dx9bi-0002CK-Bq for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:31:26 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA21419 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:31:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PKQTVX068616; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:26:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6PKQSLx068615; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:26:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.200]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PKQSk8068598 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:26:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i28so527611nzi for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:26:22 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=qugXPdeTYDAY9KUApaXNA/N+5JdRO/oivtD2mZG/WYv2drM21YRIEQTiMYTRSIWmzSbyBLckLSEJA5fflcJtIFb2myuiTX6GbMWW4wumSPT0w27h4aP7Dr3//lGS2vrmvMGs4/nI/tMNlIQUeJbGR+yOfyfk7q/sbh5hnDzRndQ= Received: by 10.36.80.15 with SMTP id d15mr2470646nzb; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 40sm2937398nzf.2005.07.25.13.26.22; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42E54AE7.8080005@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:26:15 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Sayre CC: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Atom error pages References: <42E4B633.8010709@dehora.net> <20050725113845.GC24832@klangraum> <42E4D1AD.1090105@dehora.net> <4CFCFD54-A880-4B84-BEC0-5AF952704C52@mac.com> <42E527E3.2030907@gmail.com> <42E52D84.1080601@dehora.net> <42E5361E.6020709@gmail.com> <42E542AD.7080904@dehora.net> <68fba5c505072513164ebd249a@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <68fba5c505072513164ebd249a@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id QAA21419 Returning an atom entry document would likely work fine when one is=20 requesting an Atom feed document, but it could lead to confusion if the=20 expected non-error result is itself an atom entry document. How does=20 one differentiate the expected non-error result from the error result. Robert Sayre wrote: >On 7/25/05, Bill de h=D3ra wrote: > =20 > >>James M Snell wrote: >> =20 >> >>>Does it make sense to require that MUST NOT be returned when >>>the HTTP response code is anything but 4xx or 5xx? >>> =20 >>> >>It does, but it doesn't give enough constraints to narrow the problem. >>The problem is still "what should happen when the http response is X an= d >>the code in the XML is 'Y'?" You only need one value for each to reduc= e >>robustness. >> =20 >> > >There's no special version of HTML for error pages. Let's use an Atom >Entry Document. > >Robert Sayre > > > =20 > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 25 17:18:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DxAKu-0003qc-8F for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:18:08 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA24247 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:18:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PLBZws072564; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:11:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6PLBZiI072563; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:11:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brookes.ac.uk (csmail1.brookes.ac.uk [161.73.1.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PLBXSp072549 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:11:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (data-csmail2 [192.168.2.2]) by brookes.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6PLAmam029357; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:10:54 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <42E54AE7.8080005@gmail.com> References: <42E4B633.8010709@dehora.net> <20050725113845.GC24832@klangraum> <42E4D1AD.1090105@dehora.net> <4CFCFD54-A880-4B84-BEC0-5AF952704C52@mac.com> <42E527E3.2030907@gmail.com> <42E52D84.1080601@dehora.net> <42E5361E.6020709@gmail.com> <42E542AD.7080904@dehora.net> <68fba5c505072513164ebd249a@mail.gmail.com> <42E54AE7.8080005@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: atom-syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Graham Subject: Re: Atom error pages Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:10:47 +0100 To: James M Snell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) X-MailScanner-Information: Oxford Brookes University MailScanner X-MailScanner: Clean X-MailScanner-From: dtcd@mac.com Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 25 Jul 2005, at 9:26 pm, James M Snell wrote: > Returning an atom entry document would likely work fine when one is > requesting an Atom feed document, but it could lead to confusion if > the expected non-error result is itself an atom entry document. > How does one differentiate the expected non-error result from the > error result. The HTTP code? Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 25 17:44:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DxAk4-0001Id-5Y for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:44:08 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA25982 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:44:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PLe5K3074869; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:40:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6PLe5QH074868; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:40:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf00.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.67]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PLe4E7074856 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:40:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.5.178.22]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7017C1A4163; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:39:58 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <42E55C6A.50104@cegetel.net> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:40:58 +0200 From: Thomas Broyer User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0+ (Windows/20050531) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham Cc: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Atom error pages References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > > It's far too late for this, but how should Atom servers produce/ > clients deal with error pages? Feedster regularly changes its search > results feed to a single entry "Search results temporarily offline" > feed document (RSS guid "http://www.feedster.com/"), and I think > served with HTTP status 200. This seems the wrong behavior for so > many reasons. What should they be doing in Atom? > > Graham > I think there are two cases here: * when publishing Atom feeds or entries through HTTP, an HTTP error code with an Atom body is fine (at least for me). As far as aggregator behavior is concerned, I think they could show the entry as part of the feed but discard it as soon as the feed can be retrieved without error. * when using the Atom Publishing Protocol's POST or PUT, it might be worth defining an error document type to tell the client why its document has been refused (e.g. POSTing an Atom Entry with a base64-encoded MSWord content and the server only accepts the three "basic" content types; or an Atom Entry with more than one category to a server supporting only one category per entry; or using an extension "control information" not supported by the server: it should be able to tell the client which one has been refused; etc.) -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 25 17:49:36 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DxApM-0002Gn-6J for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:49:36 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA26313 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:49:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PLjQle075320; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:45:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6PLjQuF075318; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:45:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6PLjOwS075309 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:45:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian.reschke@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 25 Jul 2005 21:45:18 -0000 Received: from p508FAC0B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (EHLO [192.168.178.21]) [80.143.172.11] by mail.gmx.net (mp003) with SMTP; 25 Jul 2005 23:45:18 +0200 X-Authenticated: #1915285 Message-ID: <42E55D67.6060905@gmx.de> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:45:11 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thomas Broyer CC: Graham , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Atom error pages References: <42E55C6A.50104@cegetel.net> In-Reply-To: <42E55C6A.50104@cegetel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas Broyer wrote: > ... > * when using the Atom Publishing Protocol's POST or PUT, it might be > worth defining an error document type to tell the client why its > document has been refused (e.g. POSTing an Atom Entry with a > base64-encoded MSWord content and the server only accepts the > three "basic" content types; or an Atom Entry with more than one > category to a server supporting only one category per entry; or > using an extension "control information" not supported by the > server: it should be able to tell the client which one has been > refused; etc.) You may want to check... Best regards, Julian From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 25 17:59:57 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DxAzM-0004IL-PR for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:59:57 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA26809 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:59:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PLqkIO075980; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:52:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6PLqkfQ075979; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:52:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from newman.implex.net (newman.implex.net [209.224.0.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PLqjdu075973 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:52:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blaine@jrcorps.com) Received: from mail.jrcorps.com [69.54.36.67] by newman.implex.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-8.05) id AF2A7DF011A; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:52:42 -0500 Received: by mail.jrcorps.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id DF2F189161; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:53:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cpe-24-94-197-193.mn.res.rr.com (cpe-24-94-197-193.mn.res.rr.com [24.94.197.193]) by webmail.jrcorps.com (IMP) with HTTP for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:53:03 -0500 Message-ID: <1122328383.42e55f3fd0644@webmail.jrcorps.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:53:03 -0500 From: Blaine Garrett To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Nested Feeds... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.6 X-Originating-IP: 24.94.197.193 X-JRCORPS-DOT-COM-IS-COOL: Yes we are! Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all, I just found this list... hopefully it is the correct list to post this to. I am developing a CMS where "modules" are data oriented and thus the output of a module is xml. At first I was just tossing together arbitrary tags, but then started to want something more defined (like atom or rss). After making the switch to a more structured output, things worked great and were more consistant. However, now I am running into the problem where modules, because they are so data oriented, may have child applications. Think forums have forums messages or news articles have comments. This lends itself to sub feeds. >From my searching, in the name of simplicity, RSS and ATOM reject the idea of nested channels/feeds. I have skimmed opml and ocs standards, but neither seem to be as widly used and modernized as atom. Is it still the case that Atom does not allow nested feeds and if so, are there any plans to change this? Atom seems like it is more extensible than most others, so I am suprised that something like this would not be allowed. I have read the potential horrors of a "feed of feeds", but it seems like that should be a limiting case. I really want to move to atom, but it seems I might just have to switch back to non-atom valid arbitrary xml. -- Blaine Garrett Chief Web Applications Developer JR Computer Associates INC http://jrcorps.com blaine@jrcorps.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 25 18:56:22 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DxBry-0003Kq-O3 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:56:22 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA04828 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:56:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PMm254086275; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:48:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6PMm276086274; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:48:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.199]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6PMm11a086257 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:48:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i28so542695nzi for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:47:56 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=fpwSOqUeT48TzCNt6PvdBQLyWvpnrU3pqbTXnWwvRpyFGRVr7lU2S91T0h8ZTDsNUPU9caGSzD4TplFQZQdd/BSkLC8xDpYenLuHfxMUysHlbCoOet0YskUevz8jlFzFMUn3WUDYTR+aEVTQs7REGBdg8GPBbFYZkyxrBtG+YDg= Received: by 10.36.3.9 with SMTP id 9mr2583511nzc; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:47:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 36sm3068169nza.2005.07.25.15.47.54; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:47:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42E56C14.2040107@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:47:48 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham CC: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Atom error pages References: <42E4B633.8010709@dehora.net> <20050725113845.GC24832@klangraum> <42E4D1AD.1090105@dehora.net> <4CFCFD54-A880-4B84-BEC0-5AF952704C52@mac.com> <42E527E3.2030907@gmail.com> <42E52D84.1080601@dehora.net> <42E5361E.6020709@gmail.com> <42E542AD.7080904@dehora.net> <68fba5c505072513164ebd249a@mail.gmail.com> <42E54AE7.8080005@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > On 25 Jul 2005, at 9:26 pm, James M Snell wrote: > >> Returning an atom entry document would likely work fine when one is >> requesting an Atom feed document, but it could lead to confusion if >> the expected non-error result is itself an atom entry document. How >> does one differentiate the expected non-error result from the error >> result. > > > The HTTP code? > > Graham > Well yeah... there's obviously that, but part of the issue was what happens if the http response is 200 but the payload is trying to communicate that an error occurred. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jul 25 21:49:46 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DxEZl-0000w3-Of for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:49:46 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA13570 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:49:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6Q1h9vc000123; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:43:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6Q1h91l000122; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:43:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6Q1h5LL000116 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:43:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:43:52 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:42:56 +1000 Subject: Re: Nested Feeds... From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1122328383.42e55f3fd0644@webmail.jrcorps.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 26/7/05 7:53 AM, "Blaine Garrett" wrote: > From my searching, in the name of simplicity, RSS and ATOM reject the idea of > nested channels/feeds. Not at all in the case of Atom. An entry can contain one or more elements, and these link elements would point to various resources .. including more atom feeds. Atom even includes an attribute ('rel') to designate the relationship between the entry and the linked resource, and there have been proposals for rel="comments" and more. Atom also specifies an attribute ('type') to declare the mime type of the linked resource, so a reader can ascertain (without fetching) that the linked resource is another Atom feed, and not an HTML page (for eg.) > I have skimmed opml and ocs standards, but neither seem > to be as widly used and modernized as atom. Is it still the case that Atom > does not allow nested feeds and if so, are there any plans to change this? A gargantuan all-in-one document would be horrible. Multiple feeds connected together with is another thing altogether (and totally possible) e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 26 00:36:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DxHAx-0005cT-Kc for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 00:36:19 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA22306 for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 00:36:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6Q4PMOH015396; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:25:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6Q4PMY6015395; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:25:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6Q4PKd2015382 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:25:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 26 Jul 2005 04:25:14 -0000 Received: from xdsl-81-173-173-185.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [81.173.173.185] by mail.gmx.net (mp025) with SMTP; 26 Jul 2005 06:25:14 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:30:20 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Nested Feeds... Message-ID: <20050726043020.GA27195@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <1122328383.42e55f3fd0644@webmail.jrcorps.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id AAA22306 * Eric Scheid [2005-07-26 03:55]: > A gargantuan all-in-one document would be horrible. Multiple > feeds connected together with is another thing > altogether (and totally possible) Another possibility is a *flat* all-in-one document where entries crossreference each other using their "atom:id"s, signifying which entries belong to which others =E2=80=93 like what we=E2=80=99re ta= lking about for comments in feeds. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 26 00:48:21 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DxHMb-0007vk-DA for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 00:48:21 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA23108 for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 00:48:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6Q4h4qt016393; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:43:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6Q4h407016392; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:43:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6Q4h153016377 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:43:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 26 Jul 2005 04:42:55 -0000 Received: from xdsl-81-173-173-185.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [81.173.173.185] by mail.gmx.net (mp004) with SMTP; 26 Jul 2005 06:42:55 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:48:04 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Atom error pages Message-ID: <20050726044804.GB27195@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax References: <42E4D1AD.1090105@dehora.net> <4CFCFD54-A880-4B84-BEC0-5AF952704C52@mac.com> <42E527E3.2030907@gmail.com> <42E52D84.1080601@dehora.net> <42E5361E.6020709@gmail.com> <42E542AD.7080904@dehora.net> <68fba5c505072513164ebd249a@mail.gmail.com> <42E54AE7.8080005@gmail.com> <42E56C14.2040107@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42E56C14.2040107@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id AAA23108 * James M Snell [2005-07-26 01:00]: > part of the issue was what happens if the http response is 200 > but the payload is trying to communicate that an error > occurred. Nothing happens. 200 means no error occured. Returning 200 when an error did occur is broken and should be fixed on the producer end. Period. I don=E2=80=99t want to see any compromise on this, ever. If you want to serve over HTTP, it=E2=80=99s your responsibility to be a good citizen. There are a lot of people who aren=E2=80=99t, of course; and some have fair, if invalid reasons for their misbehaviour. In those cases, there=E2=80=99s good reason to listen to them and try to accomodate them; but the way to do that is not by legalizing their transgressions. Remember the Web Accelerator bruhaha? There are fair reasons for service implementors to want non-idempotent GETs; but legalizing non-idempotent GETs is not the way to accomodate them. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 26 00:59:56 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DxHXo-0001at-Ir for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 00:59:56 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA24018 for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 00:59:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6Q4q4qP016862; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:52:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6Q4q4Uf016861; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:52:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6Q4q31p016847 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:52:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian.reschke@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 26 Jul 2005 04:51:55 -0000 Received: from p508FA993.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (EHLO [192.168.178.21]) [80.143.169.147] by mail.gmx.net (mp032) with SMTP; 26 Jul 2005 06:51:55 +0200 X-Authenticated: #1915285 Message-ID: <42E5C168.8000401@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:51:52 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "A. Pagaltzis" CC: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Atom error pages References: <42E4D1AD.1090105@dehora.net> <4CFCFD54-A880-4B84-BEC0-5AF952704C52@mac.com> <42E527E3.2030907@gmail.com> <42E52D84.1080601@dehora.net> <42E5361E.6020709@gmail.com> <42E542AD.7080904@dehora.net> <68fba5c505072513164ebd249a@mail.gmail.com> <42E54AE7.8080005@gmail.com> <42E56C14.2040107@gmail.com> <20050726044804.GB27195@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20050726044804.GB27195@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id AAA24018 A. Pagaltzis wrote: > * James M Snell [2005-07-26 01:00]: >=20 >>part of the issue was what happens if the http response is 200 >>but the payload is trying to communicate that an error >>occurred. >=20 >=20 > Nothing happens. 200 means no error occured. Returning 200 when > an error did occur is broken and should be fixed on the producer > end. Period. I don=E2=80=99t want to see any compromise on this, ever. > ... ++++1 Best regards, Julian From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 26 01:27:03 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DxHy3-00072O-I2 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 01:27:03 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA25539 for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 01:27:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6Q5KgG1025101; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:20:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6Q5KgLL025100; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:20:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.201]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6Q5KfYf025088 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:20:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id a41so640813rng for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:20:40 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=MtMUHFYXFddwb/N3TMojRthTutpC/NT+JFjHSwA9TD2XneX+wAGxwnUu/EzG9fsznLHySnLLX8TPtnDxkcEoBZ3fESP/Hc3Hc5T6nLn6hpqhsV//9w4kkpdNHlusmVBrxyvp2UhrAKeKBERfrJX9/m7tHuda0oQHDXokweVSPyw= Received: by 10.38.90.57 with SMTP id n57mr1741482rnb; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ([67.181.223.222]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id k22sm5259926rnb.2005.07.25.22.20.40; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42E5C820.50101@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:20:32 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "A. Pagaltzis" CC: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Atom error pages References: <42E4D1AD.1090105@dehora.net> <4CFCFD54-A880-4B84-BEC0-5AF952704C52@mac.com> <42E527E3.2030907@gmail.com> <42E52D84.1080601@dehora.net> <42E5361E.6020709@gmail.com> <42E542AD.7080904@dehora.net> <68fba5c505072513164ebd249a@mail.gmail.com> <42E54AE7.8080005@gmail.com> <42E56C14.2040107@gmail.com> <20050726044804.GB27195@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20050726044804.GB27195@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id BAA25539 A. Pagaltzis wrote: >* James M Snell [2005-07-26 01:00]: > =20 > >>part of the issue was what happens if the http response is 200 >>but the payload is trying to communicate that an error >>occurred. >> =20 >> > >Nothing happens. 200 means no error occured. Returning 200 when >an error did occur is broken and should be fixed on the producer >end. Period. I don=E2=80=99t want to see any compromise on this, ever. > >If you want to serve over HTTP, it=E2=80=99s your responsibility to be a >good citizen. There are a lot of people who aren=E2=80=99t, of course; >and some have fair, if invalid reasons for their misbehaviour. >In those cases, there=E2=80=99s good reason to listen to them and try >to accomodate them; but the way to do that is not by legalizing >their transgressions. > >Remember the Web Accelerator bruhaha? There are fair reasons for >service implementors to want non-idempotent GETs; but legalizing >non-idempotent GETs is not the way to accomodate them. > >Regards, > =20 > ;-) works for me. I'm really not advocating one way or the other on=20 this stuff... just throwing things out there to help develop the=20 conversation a bit. In that vein, what would an example error entry=20 response look like? just a simple basic entry with no fancy schmancy=20 extension elements required?=20 - james From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 26 04:50:24 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DxL8q-0000L1-4B for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 04:50:24 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA29036 for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 04:50:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6Q8iLA7009145; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 01:44:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6Q8iLSe009144; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 01:44:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail07.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail07.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6Q8iK6I009080 for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 01:44:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 5499 messnum 2894175 invoked from network[213.94.211.166/mail.724.ie]); 26 Jul 2005 08:44:13 -0000 Received: from mail.724.ie (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (213.94.211.166) by mail07.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 5499) with SMTP; 26 Jul 2005 08:44:13 -0000 Message-ID: <42E5F7DC.2030303@dehora.net> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:44:12 +0100 From: =?UTF-8?B?QmlsbCBkZSBow5NyYQ==?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Atom error pages References: <42E4D1AD.1090105@dehora.net> <4CFCFD54-A880-4B84-BEC0-5AF952704C52@mac.com> <42E527E3.2030907@gmail.com> <42E52D84.1080601@dehora.net> <42E5361E.6020709@gmail.com> <42E542AD.7080904@dehora.net> <68fba5c505072513164ebd249a@mail.gmail.com> <42E54AE7.8080005@gmail.com> <42E56C14.2040107@gmail.com> <20050726044804.GB27195@klangraum> <42E5C820.50101@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <42E5C820.50101@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.92.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James M Snell wrote: > > In that vein, what would an example error entry > response look like? just a simple basic entry with no fancy schmancy > extension elements required? > - james Something that contains nothing a machine might be able to automatically process or use as a control flag, say like, a response code... ;) cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jul 26 18:34:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DxY0B-00024f-24 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:34:19 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA00674 for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:34:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6QMOMn7073219; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:24:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6QMOLoZ073218; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:24:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta07-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mta07-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.47]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6QMOKcm073210 for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:24:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mta07-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050726222414.FEST21602.mta07-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com>; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:24:14 +0100 Received: from cpc3-stok1-5-0-cust143.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([82.11.128.143]) by aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050726222414.SIZD24042.aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@cpc3-stok1-5-0-cust143.bagu.cable.ntl.com>; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:24:14 +0100 Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:24:10 +0100 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.51.9) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <948784703.20050726232410@djpowell.net> To: Danny Ayers CC: atom-syntax@imc.org, atom-owl@googlegroups.com, semantic-web@w3.org Subject: Re: Atom RDF/OWL models In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd0507240139240cc8fa@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f2ed5cd0507240139240cc8fa@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sunday, July 24, 2005, 9:39:53 AM, Danny Ayers wrote: > David Powell's full and fairly verbose RDF schema, again I think it's > an Atom-specific vocab : > http://djpowell.net/atomrdf/0.1/ > Dates from 2005-03-22, covers draft-05. > it can be viewed through a nifty little styled-TriX converter: > http://djpowell.net/rdftrix/ I've just updated my transform to draft-10. The transform attempts to implement everything in the Atom draft, including things like author defaulting, xml:base, extension elements, etc... One of the disadvantages of RSS1.0, I think, is that it doesn't really discuss mutable entries. If you smush together two instances of an RSS1.0 feed, the result isn't very useful (you get entries with multiple rss:description's, and no clue to which one is current). So, in this schema I've divorced entries from entry instances, and feeds from feed documents, so that you can archive multiple instances in the same graph and do some temporal stuff with them. (Eg, you might want to add an http:pollDate property to the entry and feed instances). I think that the implementation is complete, but I intend to have a go at mapping RSS2.0 (and probably the others) onto the same RDF Schema. If they don't fit well, the schema might need some more updates. http://djpowell.net/atomrdf/0.1/ -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jul 27 17:54:56 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dxtrc-0007ge-58 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:54:56 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA05916 for ; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:54:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6RLkjDh053889; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:46:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6RLkjM1053887; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:46:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pih-relay06.plus.net (fuzznuts.plus.net [212.159.14.133] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6RLkiQP053868 for ; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:46:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pmrobinson@gmx.net) Received: from [80.229.20.190] (helo=[192.168.0.8]) by pih-relay06.plus.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1Dxtja-0001of-GF for atom-syntax@imc.org; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:46:38 +0100 To: atom-syntax@imc.org (Atom WG) In-Reply-To: <8E8DA6E3-AE2E-4E73-AED2-C33AD6FCF7AF@textuality.com> Subject: Re: The Atomic age From: pmrobinson@gmx.net (Peter Robinson) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:46:36 +0100 Message-ID: <1h0dr3v.17etak11xn4qdcM%pmrobinson@gmx.net> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.7 (Mac OS X version 10.3.9) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Tim Bray wrote: > Paul assures me that the remaining IETF process steps will not > introduce material technical changes, and so format-10 is appropriate > as a basis for implementors to go to work. Excellent! > So, implementors... to work. Just to show willing: Peter From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 28 01:39:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dy16o-0007e3-3N for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 01:39:08 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA05732 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 01:39:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6S5X4tJ021667; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:33:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6S5X4rt021665; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:33:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6S5X3s8021633 for ; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:33:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id a41so612407rng for ; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:33:03 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=eZKguSYF1SeaA5UzhZfasgc/S8IJ9xVO0/403WH7f3W9F3+U2yDZ50DoeYPXRDfJdUmJ2aAu7JZSL4O2ixoTL0QfO/yXeG7kMOnf06ciFmf6T8ACt+p9Fs63kY3zI1nhfTLyGCHWt+FD9U4m0Pfug9Zj3wDOMrlGMocUHdTJFLo= Received: by 10.39.1.22 with SMTP id d22mr647523rni; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ([67.181.221.143]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id m35sm1476620rnd.2005.07.27.22.33.02; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42E86E0D.8000501@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:33:01 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?QmlsbCBkZSBow5NyYQ==?= CC: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Atom error pages References: <42E4D1AD.1090105@dehora.net> <4CFCFD54-A880-4B84-BEC0-5AF952704C52@mac.com> <42E527E3.2030907@gmail.com> <42E52D84.1080601@dehora.net> <42E5361E.6020709@gmail.com> <42E542AD.7080904@dehora.net> <68fba5c505072513164ebd249a@mail.gmail.com> <42E54AE7.8080005@gmail.com> <42E56C14.2040107@gmail.com> <20050726044804.GB27195@klangraum> <42E5C820.50101@gmail.com> <42E5F7DC.2030303@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: <42E5F7DC.2030303@dehora.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id BAA05732 Bill de h=C3=93ra wrote: >James M Snell wrote: > =20 > >> In that vein, what would an example error entry >>response look like? just a simple basic entry with no fancy schmancy >>extension elements required? >>- james >> =20 >> > >Something that contains nothing a machine might be able to automatically >process or use as a control flag, say like, a response code... ;) > >cheers >Bill > > > > =20 > Ok, ok, I get it... ;-) Not sure I like it tho, but... ah well. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 28 10:27:43 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dy9MN-0003qd-KV for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:27:43 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA01404 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:27:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6SECcuW016397; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:12:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6SECcbn016396; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:12:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from relay01.pair.com (relay01.pair.com [209.68.5.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6SECbvM016389 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:12:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from iand@internetalchemy.org) Received: (qmail 15480 invoked from network); 28 Jul 2005 14:12:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?172.30.2.11?) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 28 Jul 2005 14:12:35 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 62.172.77.66 Message-ID: <42E8E7D2.5080501@internetalchemy.org> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:12:34 +0100 From: Ian Davis User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Media type treatment in the processing model Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rule 5 of the Processing Model states that media types beginning with 'text/' cannot contain child elements. This seems to imply that well-formed WML documents cannot be transported as XML, but must be escaped. WML uses a media type of text/vnd.wap-wml which was overlooked by RFC3023 so falls outside of rule 4 of the processing model. Is this a correct analysis? Also, I note that any content with the a media type starting with 'message/' (e.g. message/rfc822) has to be base 64 encoded which unusual. Ian -- http://internetalchemy.org | http://purl.org/NET/iand Working on... Silkworm From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 28 12:54:04 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DyBe0-00079n-Ok for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:54:04 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA12242 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:54:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6SGjsIu031029; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:45:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6SGjsSj031028; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:45:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6SGjrvE031021 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:45:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id g11so339572rne for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:45:53 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=bV8BoOLBdp4vudRsL9Sifamly2gS09HH8N1mMNmSPNXQcDmGHxQZG5sDC+zVzC+h437ZkJLkiFAseTF6X4zRdSahwFB8sipFFSjZKihlbJunyKzjkviNgjXyQQJTKF6tzKCRtOO47X3bG7vSDqKz9wCvgaHHRVz2j9KLVW9Ytpc= Received: by 10.38.90.79 with SMTP id n79mr1309742rnb; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ([67.181.221.143]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 74sm611110rnb.2005.07.28.09.45.52; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42E90BBE.1050104@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:45:50 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Comments Extension: IANA Registration or Not? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey all, quick opinion poll. For the comments extension, I can write the Internet Draft such that the link rels are registered with IANA or are identified by fully qualified URI's. What is the general preference of the group? I'd prefer IANA registration but that carries an obvious level of overhead. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 28 13:12:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DyBvW-00038w-Qb for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:12:10 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA13566 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:12:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6SH5uQT032464; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:05:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6SH5uk1032463; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:05:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [10.20.30.249] (dsl2-63-249-92-231.cruzio.com [63.249.92.231]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6SH5ri3032455; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:05:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <42E90BBE.1050104@gmail.com> References: <42E90BBE.1050104@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:05:51 -0700 To: James M Snell , atom-syntax@imc.org From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: Comments Extension: IANA Registration or Not? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At 9:45 AM -0700 7/28/05, James M Snell wrote: >For the comments extension, I can write the Internet Draft such that >the link rels are registered with IANA or are identified by fully >qualified URI's. What is the general preference of the group? I'd >prefer IANA registration but that carries an obvious level of >overhead. IANA registration gives you the advantage that the identifier used can be easily tied to some long-lived description of what it means. The disadvantage is the overhead of registration. Using a URI that is expected to, when resolved, describe what it means is a reasonable way to do things even if the resolution breaks at some point, as long as there is a longer-lived source of a copy of what the description was. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 28 15:17:49 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DyDt7-0007oT-ED for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:17:49 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA22542 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:17:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6SJ8d16044842; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:08:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6SJ8dEb044841; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:08:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.fondantfancies.com ([69.10.132.130]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6SJ8cYL044834 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:08:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [Y?@IPv6:::1] (69.10.132.130 [69.10.132.130]) by mail.fondantfancies.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F3C7106D9; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:08:37 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <42E8E7D2.5080501@internetalchemy.org> References: <42E8E7D2.5080501@internetalchemy.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <8B68C079-7B69-4F6E-A36C-91078E574E57@mac.com> Cc: atom-syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Graham Subject: Re: Media type treatment in the processing model Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:08:34 +0100 To: Ian Davis X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have simple rules so that for any media type there is only a single possible encoding method that everyone agrees upon. This means clients can know exactly any type of content they come across was encoded. If there are media types that don't fit the normal pattern of naming, they may end up using an illogical encoding method. I don't necessarily support this arrangement, but it's definitely far superior to what we had before where the publisher could choose any method which made decoding at the client tremendously complicated. Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 28 16:51:11 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DyFLN-00007A-Sn for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:51:08 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA28230 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:51:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6SKb8K2051716; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:37:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6SKb8JH051714; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:37:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp107.sbc.mail.re2.yahoo.com (smtp107.sbc.mail.re2.yahoo.com [68.142.229.98]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6SKb55S051696 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:37:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from me@timaoutloud.org) Received: (qmail 63365 invoked from network); 28 Jul 2005 20:36:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.0.1.2?) (timothy?m?appnel@sbcglobal.net@69.177.181.119 with plain) by smtp107.sbc.mail.re2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Jul 2005 20:36:59 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <81badc99ea92ce9a454b1e526b37ebc0@timaoutloud.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: syneditors@timaoutloud.org From: Timothy Appnel Subject: In Search of Syndication Hacks. Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:36:58 -0400 To: Atom Syntax , atom-protocol@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [Cross posted] I'm working on Syndication Hacks for O'Reilly with Ben Hammersley and we're looking for people who have some creative and novel uses of syndication services and technology. I figured with all the great work being done here, this was the place to extend an open invitation. You are probably familiar with the Hacks book series so I won't explain how this book would be structured. Currently we are trying to put together an outline of the topics from contributors and ourselves. O'Reilly affords us small budget for paying contributors that get published along with other chachkees, but mostly its all about the glory. ;) If you're interested in contributing and have an idea for a hack or two send them to syneditors@timaoutloud.org. Thanks. --- Timothy Appnel http://www.timaoutloud.org/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 28 19:39:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DyHy0-0005QP-GP for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:39:09 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA07013 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:39:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6SNTIKO062630; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:29:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6SNTIYE062629; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:29:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6SNTHCa062620 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:29:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:30:07 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:29:11 +1000 Subject: Re: Comments Extension: IANA Registration or Not? From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <42E90BBE.1050104@gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 29/7/05 2:45 AM, "James M Snell" wrote: > For the comments extension, I can write the Internet Draft such that the > link rels are registered with IANA or are identified by fully qualified > URI's. What is the general preference of the group? I'd prefer IANA > registration but that carries an obvious level of overhead. IANA please. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 28 19:58:17 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DyIGW-0002EA-VR for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:58:17 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA07877 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:58:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6SNqjlW064529; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:52:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6SNqjX6064528; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:52:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6SNqhSH064504 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:52:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 28 Jul 2005 23:52:38 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-246-88.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.246.88] by mail.gmx.net (mp027) with SMTP; 29 Jul 2005 01:52:38 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 01:57:59 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Comments Extension: IANA Registration or Not? Message-ID: <20050728235759.GA5134@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <42E90BBE.1050104@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42E90BBE.1050104@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id TAA07877 * James M Snell [2005-07-28 19:00]: > What is the general preference of the group? This is something I=E2=80=99d like to see adopted widely, eventually, so I=E2=80=99d prefer the more formal IANA route. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 28 20:03:37 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DyILg-0003jM-Sb for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:03:36 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA08125 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:03:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6SNwucs064951; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:58:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6SNwukH064950; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:58:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6SNwtU0064940 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:58:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id q3so22486nzb for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:58:50 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=nPvymHQgUvegiggzroTbsKQB/Cd5fELSqlYP4tF6eRoYpWY+VC6ifwaT0hk9SqW+Z3VN9+ENoPsjoJ6IJtuFmqrVndEgI791JDOueZxuRrxPn6Sfb86pyZXlfavrOiunS0o2z7SQQ0kQghh/bqP76qc2l0ogtO14iANltfsGBhA= Received: by 10.36.34.20 with SMTP id h20mr1477424nzh; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:58:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ([67.181.221.143]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 18sm3422627nzo.2005.07.28.16.58.20; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:58:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42E9711B.5020509@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:58:19 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Comments Draft Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is the draft. I have NOT yet submitted it for publication. I am offering it here for review purposes. Please take a look and send me your comments. http://www.snellspace.com/public/draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-00.txt Major change: I've renamed the various link rel values: * "in-reply-to" is unchanged * "comments" is now called "replies" to align better with "in-reply-to" (e.g. not all "replies" can be considered "comments") * "root" is now called "replies-source"... which is a horrible name but I'm not sure what else to call it I'm going with the IANA registration route with these rather than the fully qualified URI. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 28 20:26:52 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DyIiC-0001bg-IP for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:26:52 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA09286 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:26:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6T0KV5v066470; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:20:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6T0KVPY066469; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:20:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.204]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6T0KVmf066462 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:20:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id j1so863097rnf for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:20:27 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=GnLWf5XKEscdMLGaRZUd1gkC3mkFs1JpfyeNMnvCqgJ95uPbVXjFnk1G9zxMREtMLukwMap3DiCWDsxGis+Enj8nByGfvyazPFExjIEtSw6CdwarPbij37jAf2h9Fh/6XD6PSb9d7ZJmaZjOTWGD9QO6/QP0QsgfIjv1ATIs40U= Received: by 10.38.11.39 with SMTP id 39mr1467218rnk; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ([67.181.221.143]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id z1sm3171647rne.2005.07.28.17.20.27; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42E97649.5080400@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:20:25 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: License Link Relation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is a draft describing a License Link Relation Extension for associating copyright licenses with Atom feeds. http://www.snellspace.com/public/draft-snell-atompub-feed-license-00.txt Example with a creative commons license: http://www.example.com/myfeed My Example Feed 2005-07-28T12:00:00Z James tag:entries.com,2005:1 My original entry This is my original entry From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jul 28 20:33:43 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DyIop-0003S9-1s for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:33:43 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA09765 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:33:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6T0P6O1066708; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:25:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6T0P6u1066707; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:25:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6T0P5Ns066700 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:25:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <2005072900245901300qcru8e>; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 00:24:59 +0000 Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:24:58 -0600 Subject: Re: Comments Draft Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <42E9711B.5020509@gmail.com> Message-Id: <31C78D89-FFC7-11D9-89BF-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, July 28, 2005, at 05:58 PM, James M Snell wrote: > * "root" is now called "replies-source"... which is a horrible name > but I'm not sure what else to call it > How about "start-of-thread". From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 29 06:12:17 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DyRqj-0005lX-JC for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 06:12:17 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA25935 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 06:12:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6T9vTkU009039; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 02:57:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6T9vTAc009038; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 02:57:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6T9vSQM009028 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 02:57:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 89954 invoked by uid 17064); 29 Jul 2005 09:57:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.4]) ([83.112.225.148]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 29 Jul 2005 09:57:28 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) In-Reply-To: <82572050-0E6B-4A08-94DD-918528284446@mnot.net> References: <3E6C7917-B853-4DCF-A33E-7B7EDC9677B5@mnot.net> <3BD510EC-6549-4BE4-A962-D571A318FBB4@bblfish.net> <42DBE0ED.7060100@gmail.com> <1f9ad4d4c8a87d7a20f7deb4cbf5479f@greenbytes.de> <141BC3A3-3E8B-43BD-A65C-8FFA7F7FE38F@mnot.net> <68295146-6858-483D-9F0B-5AAFDD4E2205@bblfish.net> <82572050-0E6B-4A08-94DD-918528284446@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <65657397-2399-4301-8238-1B5295C4AC92@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: Feed History -02 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:57:23 +0200 To: Mark Nottingham , Atom WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I get the feeling that we should perhaps first list the main types of history archives, and then deal with each one separately. I can see 3: 1- The top 20 list: here one wants to move to the previous top 20 list and think of them as one thing. The link to the next feed is not meant to be additive. Each feed is to be seen as a whole. I have a little trouble still thinking of these as feeds, but ... 2- The history of changes link: the idea here is that a feed is a list of state changes to web resources. The link to the history just increases the length of the feed by pointing to the next feed page. These two pages could have been merged to create one feed page with the same end result. By moving back through the feed history one gets to see the complete history of changes to the resources described by the feed. 3- A listing of the current states of the resources: here the end user is searching for all the blog entries as they currently are. No feed id is ever duplicated across the chain. I think each of these has its uses. 1. this use case is clear and well understood. 2. is very useful for 'static' blog feeds written from a remote server, as once a feed has been archived it no longer needs to be rewritten. It is also very useful in helping a client synchronize with the changes to the feed. If a client is off line for a few months or if there are a lot of changes in a feed then the client just needs to follow this type of link to catch up with all the changes. If the entries are describing state changes to resources such as stock market valuations, then this would allow one to get all the valuations for a company going back in time. 3. It is easier for this to be generated dynamically upon request. It is not really a history of changes, but rather a list of resources. In a feed concerning a blog these two can of course easily be confused as we think of blogs as being created sequentially. We then think of the feed history as the history of the blog entry publication dates. If an old blog entry gets changed then the page on which that blog entry originally appeared in the feed would get changed just as the permalink to the blog post itself gets changed. This type of list is of course not very useful in keeping someone updated as to the changes in a feed, as the whole linked feeds would need to be stepped through to see if anything has changed. I think it is with this version that the proposals of having a separate document that points to all the entries makes most sense. And this case also seems to be worked upon in the API I think. more below... On 23 Jul 2005, at 18:14, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > > On 19/07/2005, at 2:04 AM, Henry Story wrote: > > >> Clearly the archive feed will work best if archive documents, once >> completed (containing a >> given number of entries) never change. Readers of the archive will >> have a simple way to know when >> to stop reading: there should never be a need to re-read an >> archive page - they just never change. >> >> The archive provides a history of the feed's evolution. Earlier >> changes to the resources >> described by the feed will be found in older archive documents and >> newer changes in the later >> ones. One should expect some entries to be referenced in multiple >> archive feed documents. These >> will be entries that have been changed over time. >> >> Archives *should not* change. I think any librarian will agree >> with that. >> > > I very much agree that this is the ideal that should be striven for. > > However, there are some practical problems with doing it in this > proposal. > > First of all, I'm very keen to make it possible to implement > history with currently-deployed feed-generating software; e.g., > Moveable Type. MT isn't capable of generating a feed where changed > entries are repeated at the top out of the box, AFAIK. So is it that MT can only generate feed links such as describe in 3 above? > Even if it (and other software) were, it would be very annoying to > people whose feed software doesn't understand this extension; their > "show me the latest entries in the blog" feed would become "show me > the latest changed entries in the blog", and every time an entry > was modified or spell-checked, it would show up at the top. Well in many cases this is exactly what I want. If someone makes a big change to a resource that was created one year ago (say your first blog post) then I think this is well worth knowing about. Especially if I have written a comment about it. Of course if the change is not *significant* then the change to the old feed archive would not be significant either. So perhaps I should have said that archives should not change in any *significant* way. > So, it's a matter of enabling graceful deployment. Most of the > reason I have the fh:stateful flag in there is to allow people to > explicitly say "I don't want you to do history on this feed" > because so many aggregators are already doing history in their own > way. And I agree. The way you dealt with that problem was by adding a special flag for that case. We can create a special flag for the other cases too... > The underlying problem, I think, is that different feeds have > different semantics. Some will want every change to be included, > others won't; for example, a blog probably doesn't need every > single spelling correction propagated. There are some fundamental > questions about the nature of a feed that need to be answered (and, > more importantly, agreed upon) before we get there; for example, we > now say that the ordering isn't significant by default; while > that's nice, most software is going to infer something from it, so > we need an extension to say 'sort by this', *and* have that > extension widely deployed. yes. But we don't have to answer all questions. We can just decide on some problem we want to solve, delimit it clearly and solve it. No? > I tried to approach these problems when I wrote the original > proposal for this in Pace form; I got strong pushback on defining a > single model for a feed's state. Given that, as well as the > deployment issues, I intentionally de-coupled the state > reconstruction (this proposal) from the state model (e.g., > ordering, deletion, exact semantics of an archive feed, etc.), so > that they could be separately defined. It there a place where these problems are clearly layed out so that I can get a comprehensive view of them? Thanks, Henry Story > Cheers, > > -- > Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 29 07:19:56 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DySuC-0005hi-C2 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:19:56 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA29235 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:19:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6TBCZ4f039789; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:12:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6TBCZF8039788; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:12:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6TBCYw9039759 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:12:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Fri, 29 Jul 2005 21:13:23 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 21:12:27 +1000 Subject: Re: Feed History -02 From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <65657397-2399-4301-8238-1B5295C4AC92@bblfish.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 29/7/05 7:57 PM, "Henry Story" wrote: > 1- The top 20 list: here one wants to move to the previous top 20 list and > think of them as one thing. The link to the next feed is not meant to be > additive. Each feed is to be seen as a whole. I have a little trouble still > thinking of these as feeds, but ... What happens if the publisher realises they have a typo and need to emit an update to an entry? Would the set of 20 entries (with one entry updated) be seen as a complete replacement set? The way I see it, maybe a better way would be to have a sliding window feed where each entry points to another Atom Feed Document with it's own URI, and it is that second Feed Document which contains the individual items (the top 20 list). Someone could subscribe to that second feed and poll for updates, and all they'll ever see are updates to the 20 items there, not the 20 items from the next week/whatever. The idea of feeds linked to feeds has lots of utility -- feeds of comments for one, and even a feed of feeds available on the site. For example: this HTML page has an equivalent feed document , where each item links to the individual feeds for each publication. That feed doesn't update often, mostly because NPG doesn't add many new feeds to their site all that often. The URIs the entries of that feed link to are redirected to the permanent URIs of the current issue (each issue has it's own feed which is the table of contents for that issue, with a distinct and separate URI for each issue). It's conceivable they could also provide a feed for each publication pointing to the table of contents feeds of each issue. That is, a feed with an entry for each issue. Of the above, the mechanism of a single URI which redirects to the current issue is a situation which would still need a flag indicating that the appropriate thing to do is to not persist older entries. The other structure of feeds linking to feeds would require the aggregator be able to do something useful with such links, but this can be generalised and thus be useful for many purposes. As it is, right now with NNW I can do something useful with such a feed: drag & drop the item headline link to my subscriptions pane to subscribe to that feed and view the entries therein. Both require coding effort. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 29 07:50:24 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DyTNg-00055A-By for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:50:24 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA00709 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:50:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6TBa826050869; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:36:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6TBa8c7050868; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:36:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6TBa6LS050855 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:36:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Fri, 29 Jul 2005 21:36:59 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 21:36:05 +1000 Subject: Re: Feed History -02 From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 29/7/05 9:12 PM, "Eric Scheid" wrote: > It's conceivable they could also provide a feed for each publication > pointing to the table of contents feeds of each issue. That is, a feed with > an entry for each issue. There is another issue with the idea individual Atom Feed Documents describing a snapshot-in-time collection of entries ... those snapshot documents shouldn't really be polled for updates every hour or whatever. Thus, it would be useful for a feed to be able to indicate how often it should be polled (or not). Might have to write an extension for that. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 29 09:51:49 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DyVHA-0006nb-QK for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:51:49 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA09583 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:51:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6TDdt1C099483; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 06:39:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6TDdtX2099482; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 06:39:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6TDdq21099466 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 06:39:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 72727 invoked by uid 17064); 29 Jul 2005 13:39:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.8]) ([83.112.237.60]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 29 Jul 2005 13:39:51 -0000 In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <11F83246-2C4B-48EC-ADD7-3AED2296B476@bblfish.net> Cc: Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: Feed History -02 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:39:47 +0200 To: Eric Scheid X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Below I think I have worked out how one can in fact have a top20 feed, and I show how this can be combined without trouble with the link... On 29 Jul 2005, at 13:12, Eric Scheid wrote: > > On 29/7/05 7:57 PM, "Henry Story" wrote: > > >> 1- The top 20 list: here one wants to move to the previous top 20 >> list and >> think of them as one thing. The link to the next feed is not meant >> to be >> additive. Each feed is to be seen as a whole. I have a little >> trouble still >> thinking of these as feeds, but ... >> > > What happens if the publisher realises they have a typo and need to > emit an > update to an entry? Would the set of 20 entries (with one entry > updated) be > seen as a complete replacement set? Well if it is a typo and this is considered to be an insignificant change then they can change the typo in the feed document and not need to change any updated time stamps. > The way I see it, maybe a better way would be to have a sliding > window feed > where each entry points to another Atom Feed Document with it's own > URI, and > it is that second Feed Document which contains the individual items > (the top > 20 list). This is certainly closer to my intuitions too. A top 20 something is *not* a feed. Feed entries are not ordered, and are not meant to be thought of as a closed collection. At least this is my initial intuition. BUT.... I can think of a solution like the following: Let us imagine a top 20 feed where the resources being described by the entries are the position in the top list. So we have entries with ids such as http://TopOfThePops.co.uk/top20/Number1 http://TopOfThePops.co.uk/top20/Number2 http://TopOfThePops.co.uk/top20/Number3 ... Each of these resources describes the songs that is at a certain rank in the top of the pops chart. Each week the song in that rank may change. When a change occurs in the song at a certain rank the top 20 feed with id http://TopOfThePops.co.uk/top20/Feed will contain a new entry such as Top of the pops entry number 1 http://TopOfThePops.co.uk/top20/Number1 2005-07-05T18:30:00Z Top of the pops winner for the week starting 5 July 2005 A client that would subscribe to such a feed would automatically get updates every week for each of the top 20 resources. But the feed could be structured exactly like I suggest in 2. So for a top 2 feed (20 is a bit to long for me) My top 2 Software Books http://bblfish.net/blog/top2 http://bblfish.net/blog/top2/ Archive-2005-07-18.atom ... My Top 1 book http://bblfish.net/blog/top2/Number1 2005-07-25T18:30:00Z My top 1 book is Service Oriented Computing by Wiley My Top 2 book http://bblfish.net/blog/top2/Number2 2005-07-25T18:30:00Z My second top book is "xml in a Nutshell" The above representation of the http://bblfish.net/blog/top2 feed points to the archive feed http://bblfish.net/blog/top2/Archive-2005-07-18.atom My top 2 Software Books http://bblfish.net/blog/top2 ... My Top 1 book http://bblfish.net/blog/top2/Number1 2005-07-18T18:30:00Z My top 1 book is Java 2D Graphics My Top 2 book http://bblfish.net/blog/top2/Number2 2005-07-18T18:30:00Z My second top book is "xml in a Nutshell" As you notice only the top1 has changed from the first week but not the second, and yet in both feeds there is an entry for both. A non change can sometimes be an important event. But this is really up to the feed creator to choose how to present his feeds. He could easily have had only had the entry for http://bblfish.net/blog/top2/Number1 in the first feed. Looking at it this way, there really seems to be no incompatibility between a top 20 feed and the link. My talk about archives not changing should be more precisely about archives not changing in any significant way. And this advice could be moved to an implementors section and be encoded in HTTP by simply giving archive pages an infinitely long expiry date. > Someone could subscribe to that second feed and poll for updates, > and all > they'll ever see are updates to the 20 items there, not the 20 > items from > the next week/whatever. > > The idea of feeds linked to feeds has lots of utility -- feeds of > comments > for one, and even a feed of feeds available on the site. I completely agree. And remember for any two things there is at least one way they are related. And there are many different ways feeds can be related to each other. A feed may be an archival continuation of one - which is what the link in my opinion addresses, but there are many other ways one can relate feeds. > For example: this HTML page has an > equivalent > feed document , where each > item > links to the individual feeds for each publication. That feed > doesn't update > often, mostly because NPG doesn't add many new feeds to their site > all that > often. The URIs the entries of that feed link to are redirected to the > permanent URIs of the current issue (each issue has it's own feed > which is > the table of contents for that issue, with a distinct and separate > URI for > each issue). Yes a feed can itself be an entry in another feed. > It's conceivable they could also provide a feed for each publication > pointing to the table of contents feeds of each issue. That is, a > feed with > an entry for each issue. yes. > Of the above, the mechanism of a single URI which redirects to the > current > issue is a situation which would still need a flag indicating that the > appropriate thing to do is to not persist older entries. I am starting to wonder whether this is really needed now that I have looked at the top20 example I gave above. > > The other structure of feeds linking to feeds would require the > aggregator > be able to do something useful with such links, but this can be > generalised > and thus be useful for many purposes. As it is, right now with NNW > I can do > something useful with such a feed: drag & drop the item headline > link to my > subscriptions pane to subscribe to that feed and view the entries > therein. I myself have no problem with feeds being entries, feeds pointing to other feeds, or anything like that. A feed is a resource. It can change. A feed is simply a set of state changes to resources. It is that general. > > Both require coding effort. > > e. > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 29 11:16:47 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DyWbP-0000nB-NQ for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:16:47 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA16557 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:16:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6TF1teu012398; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:01:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6TF1tpd012397; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:01:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6TF1s69012385 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:01:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:02:44 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:01:50 +1000 Subject: Re: nested feeds (was: Feed History -02) From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <11F83246-2C4B-48EC-ADD7-3AED2296B476@bblfish.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 29/7/05 11:39 PM, "Henry Story" wrote: > Below I think I have worked out how one can in fact have a top20 feed, and I > show how this can be combined without trouble with the > link... > > > On 29 Jul 2005, at 13:12, Eric Scheid wrote: > >> On 29/7/05 7:57 PM, "Henry Story" wrote: >> >> >>> 1- The top 20 list: here one wants to move to the previous top 20 list and >>> think of them as one thing. The link to the next feed is not meant to be >>> additive. Each feed is to be seen as a whole. I have a little trouble still >>> thinking of these as feeds, but ... >>> >> >> What happens if the publisher realises they have a typo and need to emit an >> update to an entry? Would the set of 20 entries (with one entry updated) be >> seen as a complete replacement set? >> > Well if it is a typo and this is considered to be an insignificant change > then they can change the typo in the feed document and not need to change any > updated time stamps. Misspelling the name of the artist for the top 20 songs list is not insignificant. Even worse fubars are possible too -- such as attributing the wrong artist/author to the #1 song/book (and even worse: leaving off a co-author). >> The way I see it, maybe a better way would be to have a sliding window feed >> where each entry points to another Atom Feed Document with it's own URI, and >> it is that second Feed Document which contains the individual items (the top >> 20 list). >> > This is certainly closer to my intuitions too. A top 20 something is *not* a > feed. Feed entries are not ordered, and are not meant to be thought of as a > closed collection. At least this is my initial intuition. BUT.... Not all Atom Feed Documents are feeds, some are static collections of entries. We keep tripping over this :-( > I can think of a solution like the following: Let us imagine a top 20 feed > where the resources being described by the entries are the position in the > top list. So we have entries with ids such as > > http://TopOfThePops.co.uk/top20/Number1 > http://TopOfThePops.co.uk/top20/Number2 > http://TopOfThePops.co.uk/top20/Number3 ... > will contain a new entry such as > > > Top of the pops entry number 1 > > http://TopOfThePops.co.uk/top20/Number1 > 2005-07-05T18:30:00Z > Top of the pops winner for the week starting 5 July > 2005 > The problem here is that this doesn't describe the referent, it only describes the reference. I want to see top 20 feeds where each entry links to the referent in question. For example, the Amazon Top 10 Selling Books feed would link to the book specific page at Amazon, not to some page saying "the #3 selling book is at the other end of this link". >> The idea of feeds linked to feeds has lots of utility -- feeds of comments >> for one, and even a feed of feeds available on the site. >> > I completely agree. And remember for any two things there is at least one way > they are related. And there are many different ways feeds can be related to > each other. A feed may be an archival continuation of one - which is what the > link in my opinion addresses, but there are many other ways > one can relate feeds. I did a grep of an archive of atom-syntax messages .. lots of interesting possibilities in there. James has set a nice example to copy from, so expect a few I-D from me. >> Of the above, the mechanism of a single URI which redirects to the current >> issue is a situation which would still need a flag indicating that the >> appropriate thing to do is to not persist older entries. >> > I am starting to wonder whether this is really needed now that I have looked > at the top20 example I gave above. Consider the Nature case study. They have separate feed documents for each issue, but just one public URI published. The things which are entries are not Top N things but entries in a Table of Contents, and it's useful to be able to aggregate that list of articles over time. >> The other structure of feeds linking to feeds would require the aggregator >> be able to do something useful with such links, but this can be generalised >> and thus be useful for many purposes. As it is, right now with NNW I can do >> something useful with such a feed: drag & drop the item headline link to my >> subscriptions pane to subscribe to that feed and view the entries therein. >> > I myself have no problem with feeds being entries, feeds pointing to other > feeds, or anything like that. A feed is a resource. It can change. A feed is > simply a set of state changes to resources. It is that general. What's needed is a sea change in the concept model aggregators have regarding feed URIs. Right now it's exactly as if you have to Bookmark a web page before you can view it -- whereas I'd like to see feed browser where I can clickity click to wherever without having to first clutter my subscriptions list, but if I happen to like the look of a feed I can click one button to s/subscribe/bookmark/ it. A related interface design concept involves nesting - right now all my subscriptions lie flat in my subscriptions pane. I can organise them into folders, and those folders inside more folders, but the subscriptions lie flat inside there. I'd love to see my subscription list look like this; - Fave Feeds Fred's Blog (12) + Jim's Blog (23) - Mike's Blog (7) - Categories Food Cat Pix - Archives Jan 2000 Feb 2000 etc + Tom's Blog (234) I'm not aware of any feed readers that do that just yet, probably because not many feeds actually contain links to other feeds as a matter of course. Those would be feeds related to feeds there ... haven't quite thought through how I'd like to see sub-feeds of entries as yet. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 29 16:47:06 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dybl2-0004fv-VC for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:47:06 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA08293 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:47:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6TKacpo049070; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:36:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6TKacUe049069; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:36:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6TKaaGZ049026 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:36:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 29 Jul 2005 20:36:30 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-225-11.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.225.11] by mail.gmx.net (mp022) with SMTP; 29 Jul 2005 22:36:30 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:41:53 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Comments Draft Message-ID: <20050729204153.GA12476@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <42E9711B.5020509@gmail.com> <31C78D89-FFC7-11D9-89BF-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <31C78D89-FFC7-11D9-89BF-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id QAA08293 * Antone Roundy [2005-07-29 02:40]: > On Thursday, July 28, 2005, at 05:58 PM, James M Snell wrote: > > "root" is now called "replies-source"... which is a horrible > > name but I'm not sure what else to call it > > > How about "start-of-thread". Or maybe =E2=80=9Cparent-entries?=E2=80=9D Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 29 19:36:25 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DyeOv-0002Mb-Oh for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:36:25 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA16828 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:36:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6TNTEVu065630; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:29:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6TNTEsX065629; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:29:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6TNTEJp065619 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:29:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i28so697471wra for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:29:08 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=fXAuO3EWKWx8GD1l8xSL5f2HT5kexFnlDw2hGtmCGgulTukeWKlkaOsc1ZWUcfJj1u0ByttK08BesHzBvK32N9o2EtMn4t3Lp6DQC7+M4P6S1Rv6GeBuMUMgCIs+D5z9Z+o/5KUjXDgbMjwvF24oD6cusIqpnUe6DEkUM3Q5Sjk= Received: by 10.54.13.59 with SMTP id 59mr1639118wrm; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ([67.181.221.143]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 9sm1187483wrl.2005.07.29.16.29.07; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42EABB9F.4040602@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:28:31 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Antone Roundy CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Comments Draft References: <8B689A7D-0080-11DA-8A3B-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> In-Reply-To: <8B689A7D-0080-11DA-8A3B-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id TAA16828 Right. Nor is there any guarantee that the referenced entity will=20 actually contain the original entry... e.g. it's possible that it could=20 point to a feed that has been updated such that the original entry has=20 already moved off of it. It's really just a hint as to where original=20 entries MIGHT be found.=20 Antone Roundy wrote: > > On Friday, July 29, 2005, at 02:41 PM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > >> * Antone Roundy [2005-07-29 02:40]: >> >>> On Thursday, July 28, 2005, at 05:58 PM, James M Snell wrote: >>> >>>> "root" is now called "replies-source"... which is a horrible >>>> name but I'm not sure what else to call it >>>> >>> How about "start-of-thread". >> >> >> Or maybe =93parent-entries?=94 >> > How about "mother-of-all-entries"? Ha ha. > > The problem with "parent-entries" is that this link may not be=20 > pointing to the immediate parent, right? > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 29 20:40:47 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DyfPC-0005Kb-Gx for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 20:40:46 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA20804 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 20:40:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6U0XKcx071057; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 17:33:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6U0XKaY071056; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 17:33:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6U0XJri071043 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 17:33:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 30 Jul 2005 00:33:13 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-225-11.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.225.11] by mail.gmx.net (mp017) with SMTP; 30 Jul 2005 02:33:13 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 02:38:35 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Comments Draft Message-ID: <20050730003835.GC13687@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <8B689A7D-0080-11DA-8A3B-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <42EABB9F.4040602@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42EABB9F.4040602@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id UAA20804 * James M Snell [2005-07-30 01:40]: > It's really just a hint as to where original entries MIGHT be > found.=20 =E2=80=9Coriginally-at?=E2=80=9D Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jul 29 23:41:43 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DyiEJ-0002Un-Fp for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 23:41:43 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA27410 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 23:41:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6TMVsBP061186; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:31:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6TMVsLS061185; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:31:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6TMVs5k061176 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:31:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2005072922314701300hr44ae>; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:31:47 +0000 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:31:45 -0600 Subject: Re: Comments Draft Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <20050729204153.GA12476@klangraum> Message-Id: <8B689A7D-0080-11DA-8A3B-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6TMVs5k061179 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id XAA27410 On Friday, July 29, 2005, at 02:41 PM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > * Antone Roundy [2005-07-29 02:40]: >> On Thursday, July 28, 2005, at 05:58 PM, James M Snell wrote: >>> "root" is now called "replies-source"... which is a horrible >>> name but I'm not sure what else to call it >>> >> How about "start-of-thread". > > Or maybe =93parent-entries?=94 > How about "mother-of-all-entries"? Ha ha. The problem with "parent-entries" is that this link may not be pointing=20 to the immediate parent, right? From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 30 11:45:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DytWP-0005Ig-Gb for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:45:09 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA16810 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:45:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6UFbNC2007083; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:37:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6UFbNam007082; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:37:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.fondantfancies.com ([69.10.132.130]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6UFbMY5007075 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:37:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [q?@IPv6:::1] (69.10.132.130 [69.10.132.130]) by mail.fondantfancies.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 214E4106D9 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:37:21 +0100 (BST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) In-Reply-To: <20050730003835.GC13687@klangraum> References: <8B689A7D-0080-11DA-8A3B-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <42EABB9F.4040602@gmail.com> <20050730003835.GC13687@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Message-Id: From: Graham Subject: Re: Comments Draft Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:37:18 +0100 To: atom-syntax X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6UFbNY5007076 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id LAA16810 On 30 Jul 2005, at 1:38 am, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > > * James M Snell [2005-07-30 01:40]: > >> It's really just a hint as to where original entries MIGHT be >> found. >> > > =93originally-at?=94 source? Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 30 12:03:33 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DytoD-0000br-FY for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:03:33 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA17586 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:03:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6UFwVFB008936; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:58:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6UFwVwA008935; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:58:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6UFwUTl008921 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:58:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i28so116511nzi for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:58:24 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=mOmtVeaYQA8HgPLQxlfbWgEd3eRCofLL5RKNeFMtQ75Z7o12blZH5cn2xFLDG+M5VmvHxbAbU24I2V0QAZM2qrDldGvqvYVisQI94kBT6juo6QK5i9CTfTJsscoiVVnOsMXV3K1LhdZivO22vNL6p1bagoUkiqTq1JrGpPvO2j4= Received: by 10.36.227.36 with SMTP id z36mr4099979nzg; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:58:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ([67.181.221.143]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 15sm3836167nzn.2005.07.30.08.58.24; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:58:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42EBA39D.5020404@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:58:21 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham CC: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Comments Draft References: <8B689A7D-0080-11DA-8A3B-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <42EABB9F.4040602@gmail.com> <20050730003835.GC13687@klangraum> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id MAA17586 Yeah, source is likely the most logical choice, but I didn't want to=20 confuse folks with a link @rel=3D"source" that has a different meaning=20 from atom:source. Graham wrote: > > On 30 Jul 2005, at 1:38 am, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > >> >> * James M Snell [2005-07-30 01:40]: >> >>> It's really just a hint as to where original entries MIGHT be >>> found. >>> >> >> =93originally-at?=94 > > > source? > > Graham > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 30 12:36:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DyuJu-0000MW-FF for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:36:19 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA18767 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:36:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6UGTZ9l012442; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 09:29:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6UGTZYN012441; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 09:29:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail05.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail05.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.21]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6UGTYPC012431 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 09:29:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 28770 messnum 3320123 invoked from network[83.70.29.246/83-70-29-246.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 30 Jul 2005 16:29:28 -0000 Received: from 83-70-29-246.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (83.70.29.246) by mail05.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 28770) with SMTP; 30 Jul 2005 16:29:28 -0000 Message-ID: <42EBAAE5.2080004@dehora.net> Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:29:26 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: atom buttons X-Enigmail-Version: 0.92.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, what are y'all using for Atom buttons? cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 30 13:40:36 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DyvK8-00047m-3m for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:40:36 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA20545 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:40:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6UHWSLv016522; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:32:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6UHWSUI016521; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:32:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pih-relay04.plus.net (pih-relay04.plus.net [212.159.14.131]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6UHWQnI016511 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:32:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pmrobinson@gmx.net) Received: from [80.229.20.190] (helo=[192.168.0.8]) by pih-relay04.plus.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1DyvC8-0007lY-5w for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:32:20 +0100 To: atom-syntax@imc.org (Atom WG) In-Reply-To: <42DBEF38.6020002@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Atom Index Extension Proposal From: pmrobinson@gmx.net (Peter Robinson) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:32:20 +0100 Message-ID: <1h0iys3.1yg4ip91wdglbbM%pmrobinson@gmx.net> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.7 (Mac OS X version 10.3.9) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: James M Snell wrote: > FYI: http://www.snellspace.com/wp/?p=193 > > Abstract: Proposes two new elements that allow entries to be ordered > within a feed. [xml condensed:] > xmlns:o="http://www.snellspace.com/atom/extensions/proposed"> > ... > > ... 1 > ... 2 > ... 3 > Certainly a very interesting idea. Having implemented openSearch [1] in my product feeds [2], I'd probably implement this, because it makes sense and would be very easy to do. My feeds are actually ordered (and paged) already, either by onsale date or by top seller, even though there's no way to indicate this in the XML. [Actually, it *should* already be in openSearch since that implicitly expects the feed entries to be ordered corresponding to the feed-level and elements.] Just my 2c. Regards, Peter [1] [2] (or ) From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 30 16:41:16 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dyy8x-0006M2-VG for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:41:16 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA28822 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:41:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6UKXeNe032464; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:33:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6UKXe1J032463; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:33:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6UKXcFx032454 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:33:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 30 Jul 2005 20:33:32 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-250-224.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.250.224] by mail.gmx.net (mp028) with SMTP; 30 Jul 2005 22:33:32 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:38:55 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Comments Draft Message-ID: <20050730203855.GA19596@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax References: <8B689A7D-0080-11DA-8A3B-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <42EABB9F.4040602@gmail.com> <20050730003835.GC13687@klangraum> <42EBA39D.5020404@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42EBA39D.5020404@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id QAA28822 * James M Snell [2005-07-30 18:10]: > Yeah, source is likely the most logical choice, but I didn't > want to confuse folks with a link @rel=3D"source" that has a > different meaning from atom:source. An argument by way of which I came around to Antone=E2=80=99s suggested =E2=80=9Cstart-of-thread,=E2=80=9D though I was going to suggest =E2=80=9C= thread-start.=E2=80=9D But then I thought, we already use mail header lingo with =E2=80=9Cin-reply-to;=E2=80=9D why not borrow another term from there and= call it =E2=80=9Creferences?=E2=80=9D Yes, I know it=E2=80=99s not the same as th= e References: header. But the ultimate purpose (to trace the thread in newsreaders) is kind of similar, and more importantly, the term seems to fit the sort of relationship we=E2=80=99re trying to describe quite closely. If this is deemed a poor choice, then I fall back to =E2=80=9Cthread-start.=E2=80=9D Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 30 16:44:49 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DyyCN-0006xN-VS for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:44:49 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA28870 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:44:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6UKeDL0033084; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:40:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6UKeDKP033083; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:40:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6UKeBm6033073 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:40:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 30 Jul 2005 20:40:06 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-250-224.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.250.224] by mail.gmx.net (mp027) with SMTP; 30 Jul 2005 22:40:06 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:45:27 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: atom buttons Message-ID: <20050730204527.GB19596@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <42EBAAE5.2080004@dehora.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42EBAAE5.2080004@dehora.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id QAA28870 * Bill de h=C3=93ra [2005-07-30 18:40]: > what are y'all using for Atom buttons? I=E2=80=99m not using one, but I thought there was one with the atom from the Atom logo? I can=E2=80=99t find any such thing now, though; well, except the one at the feedvalidator, but that=E2=80=99s too large for my taste. Isn=E2=80=99t there a vector version of the logo available somewhere? This is something that always irks me; most people post their logos only as bitmaps, so it=E2=80=99s impossible to use them with page background colours other than the ones they provided for, or to scale the logo sanely, or make a smaller text-less logo from a button, or such. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 30 17:01:03 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DyyS6-0001g4-Fl for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:01:02 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA29424 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:01:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6UKtfXj033811; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:55:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6UKtfps033810; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:55:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6UKtewq033802 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:55:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <20050730205534015005bir9e>; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 20:55:35 +0000 Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:55:33 -0600 Subject: Re: Comments Draft Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <20050730203855.GA19596@klangraum> Message-Id: <453E5A50-013C-11DA-A920-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6UKtfwq033805 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id RAA29424 On Saturday, July 30, 2005, at 02:38 PM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > * James M Snell [2005-07-30 18:10]: >> Yeah, source is likely the most logical choice, but I didn't >> want to confuse folks with a link @rel=3D"source" that has a >> different meaning from atom:source. > > An argument by way of which I came around to Antone=92s suggested > =93start-of-thread,=94 though I was going to suggest =93thread-start.=94 > I took a look at the draft to verify whether I correctly understood=20 what this link points to, and I think it isn't what I originally=20 thought based on the old name "root". Does this point to the feed in=20 which the immediate parent entry was found, or to the feed in which the=20 first entry in a thread of replies was found? If the former, which the=20 draft seems to suggest, and which seems more useful, then=20 "start-of-thread" and "thread-start" probably aren't such good names=20 after all. With clarity in mind, "in-reply-to-feed" might be good,=20 though it's a bit long. And problem comes to mind: if you have multiple "in-reply-to" links,=20 how do you related those to their respective "in-reply-to-feed" links=20 (in case they're different)? Is it possible? Dare we do something=20 like this? (Wish we to if we dare?) Pro: * Groups the two links together * Gives us more options for what to call the inside one without=20 creating confusion: "source-feed", for example. It would be nice to=20 choose a name that's not likely to be the perfect name for some other=20 use, or to define this @rel value broadly enough to be applicable to=20 other purposes. Con: * Puts an atom:link in a location not expected by apps that don't=20 understand this extension. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 30 17:21:17 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dyylg-0005bD-Mt for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:21:17 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA00013 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:21:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6ULG8xH035463; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:16:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6ULG7C1035462; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:16:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6ULG54A035451 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:16:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gerph@gerph.org) Received: from dynamic-62-56-59-124.park-s46b.dslaccess.co.uk ([62.56.59.124] helo=buttercup.gerph.org) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtpa (AUTH gerph) (Exim 4.42) id 1Dyygc-000EXj-7L; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 21:16:05 +0000 Received: by buttercup.gerph.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 9551BF52D2; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:15:48 +0100 (BST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by buttercup.gerph.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84E9FED2C0; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:15:48 +0100 (BST) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:15:48 +0100 (BST) From: Justin Fletcher X-X-Sender: justin@buttercup.gerph.org To: "A. Pagaltzis" Cc: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Comments Draft In-Reply-To: <20050730203855.GA19596@klangraum> Message-ID: References: <8B689A7D-0080-11DA-8A3B-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <42EABB9F.4040602@gmail.com> <20050730003835.GC13687@klangraum> <42EBA39D.5020404@gmail.com> <20050730203855.GA19596@klangraum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6ULG64A035455 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id RAA00013 On Sat, 30 Jul 2005, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > * James M Snell [2005-07-30 18:10]: > > Yeah, source is likely the most logical choice, but I didn't > > want to confuse folks with a link @rel=3D"source" that has a > > different meaning from atom:source. > > An argument by way of which I came around to Antone=E2=80=99s suggested > =E2=80=9Cstart-of-thread,=E2=80=9D though I was going to suggest =E2=80= =9Cthread-start.=E2=80=9D > > But then I thought, we already use mail header lingo with > =E2=80=9Cin-reply-to;=E2=80=9D why not borrow another term from there a= nd call it > =E2=80=9Creferences?=E2=80=9D Yes, I know it=E2=80=99s not the same as = the References: > header. But the ultimate purpose (to trace the thread in > newsreaders) is kind of similar, and more importantly, the term > seems to fit the sort of relationship we=E2=80=99re trying to describe > quite closely. The 'In-Reply-To' in mail terms supplies the unique identifier used to identify the previous message. In this respect the comments draft matches up quite nicely. However, 'References' is the set of referenced messages in the source document, plus the unique identifier of the source document. It makes sense to not reuse the mail term differently when there is already a parallel drawn with the 'in-reply-to'. > If this is deemed a poor choice, then I fall back to > =E2=80=9Cthread-start.=E2=80=9D I'm not sure that 'start' is suitable here, because the source document referenced may not be the start of the discussions - it only refers to th= e parent to which the response pertains. I'm quite happy with 'replies-source' because it does not indComparing to= mail seems to be a reasonable thing to do - mail has a considerable amount of prior implementation and understanding from which concepts can be drawn. However, there is no equivilent in mail terms for the purpose of the 'replies-source'. If I were to question the 'replies-source' name at all, I'd say that it should be 'reply-source' because the entry refers to only a single reply and not to multiple replies. This also brings it in line with 'in-reply-to'. --=20 Gerph ... Never did find my way home in time to forgive her. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 30 17:47:20 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DyzAu-0002KS-1k for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:47:20 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA00796 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:47:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6ULfw7T036637; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:41:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6ULfwjq036636; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:41:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6ULfu3H036622 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:41:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 30 Jul 2005 21:41:50 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-250-224.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.250.224] by mail.gmx.net (mp021) with SMTP; 30 Jul 2005 23:41:50 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 23:47:14 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Comments Draft Message-ID: <20050730214714.GA21851@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax References: <8B689A7D-0080-11DA-8A3B-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <42EABB9F.4040602@gmail.com> <20050730003835.GC13687@klangraum> <42EBA39D.5020404@gmail.com> <20050730203855.GA19596@klangraum> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id RAA00796 * Justin Fletcher [2005-07-30 23:25]: > I'm quite happy with 'replies-source' because it does not > indComparing to mail seems to be a reasonable thing to do - > mail has a considerable amount of prior implementation and > understanding from which concepts can be drawn. However, there > is no equivilent in mail terms for the purpose of the > 'replies-source'. I=E2=80=99m -1 on using =E2=80=9Creplies-source=E2=80=9D; I should have s= aid so more explicitly before. To me it is non-sensical, as it parses as =E2=80=9Cthe source of replies,=E2=80=9D which is the opposite relationship of what it=E2=80=99s supposed to express. It=E2=80=99s not where the replies come= from, it=E2=80=99s where the entries being replied to come from. I suppose the criticism on =E2=80=9Cthread-start=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cre= ferences=E2=80=9D is valid=E2=80=A6 but I still think that =E2=80=9Creferences=E2=80=9D is lin= guistically the closest to what we are trying to express. Maybe =E2=80=9Creferences-source?=E2=80=9D Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 30 17:59:30 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DyzMg-0004mm-Ei for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:59:30 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA01043 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:59:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6ULsRVF037173; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:54:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6ULsRjB037172; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:54:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (imap.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6ULsQHA037159 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:54:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 30 Jul 2005 21:54:20 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-250-224.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.250.224] by mail.gmx.net (mp005) with SMTP; 30 Jul 2005 23:54:20 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 23:59:43 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Comments Draft Message-ID: <20050730215943.GB21851@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <20050730203855.GA19596@klangraum> <453E5A50-013C-11DA-A920-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <453E5A50-013C-11DA-A920-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id RAA01043 * Antone Roundy [2005-07-30 23:05]: > Pro: > * Groups the two links together > * Gives us more options for what to call the inside one without > creating confusion: "source-feed", for example. It would be > nice to choose a name that's not likely to be the perfect name > for some other use, or to define this @rel value broadly enough > to be applicable to other purposes. >=20 > Con: > * Puts an atom:link in a location not expected by apps that > don't understand this extension. I like it. I=E2=80=99d prefer to eliminate the one contra you listed by using an extension element for this purpose (as always, nested into the link.) Of course, that means need a namespace=E2=80=A6 It=E2=80=99s a good solution to the bikeshed of naming the relationship, and it keeps the information about the entry being replied to and its source coupled together. With a plain old @rel value, you can=E2=80=99t tell which ones belong together in an entry with several links of both kinds. So far I can=E2=80=99t really make up my mind on any one solution, but this one seems the most correct, all else considered. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 30 18:00:23 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DyzNX-000538-E7 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:00:23 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA01104 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:00:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6ULuega037263; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:56:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6ULueUb037262; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:56:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.199]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6ULucBx037255 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:56:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id a41so1210076rng for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:56:38 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=XPmE3UbHso3/N6FYdHRn7vdXZf1+pfHq5v6GnKLuMu+mS708A9Hc69ffDryNU8PlyOUPHWo6hUh7fGVzIBdiAt3gJwnQV0BQuMWwsMSvGZje80mj9siCFdsP9ZPvXyViPRSEvJ3z6SCfbCrF55+Il9/l8rJfMFbCNtByUL2S5hs= Received: by 10.38.86.51 with SMTP id j51mr2069909rnb; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ([67.181.221.143]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id f3sm923339rne.2005.07.30.14.56.37; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42EBF792.7060901@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:56:34 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "A. Pagaltzis" CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: atom buttons References: <42EBAAE5.2080004@dehora.net> <20050730204527.GB19596@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20050730204527.GB19596@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id SAA01104 I'm using the one from the Feed Validator. http://www.snellspace.com/public/valid-atom.png A. Pagaltzis wrote: >* Bill de h=C3=93ra [2005-07-30 18:40]: > =20 > >>what are y'all using for Atom buttons? >> =20 >> > >I=E2=80=99m not using one, but I thought there was one with the atom fro= m >the Atom logo? I can=E2=80=99t find any such thing now, though; well, >except the one at the feedvalidator, but that=E2=80=99s too large for my >taste. > >Isn=E2=80=99t there a vector version of the logo available somewhere? >This is something that always irks me; most people post their >logos only as bitmaps, so it=E2=80=99s impossible to use them with page >background colours other than the ones they provided for, or to >scale the logo sanely, or make a smaller text-less logo from a >button, or such. > >Regards, > =20 > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 30 18:24:27 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dyzko-0001l8-WE for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:24:27 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA02947 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:24:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6UMGYFC038155; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:16:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6UMGYlJ038154; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:16:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc14.comcast.net (sccrmhc14.comcast.net [204.127.202.59]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6UMGXGk038148 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:16:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc14) with SMTP id <2005073022162701400jh9tle>; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:16:27 +0000 Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:16:26 -0600 Subject: Re: Comments Draft Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <20050730215943.GB21851@klangraum> Message-Id: <91DF485E-0147-11DA-A920-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6UMGYGk038149 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id SAA02947 On Saturday, July 30, 2005, at 03:59 PM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > I=92d prefer to eliminate the one contra you listed by using an > extension element for this purpose (as always, nested into the > link.) Of course, that means need a namespace=85 Given that the link to the feed is traversable, and the "link" to the=20 ID of the entry may not be, I'd suggest using an extension element for=20 the possibly-non-traversable link, if for either....which would leave=20 us needing to pick a good @rel value for the traversable one. That=20 would also keep my con point around: ...unless it were done this way: ...but doesn't quite work, because the logical relationships between=20 the elements are entry to foo:non-traversable and foo:non-traversable=20 to link, not entry to link and link to foo:non-traversable. I'm satisfied to live with the negative point of having a link in an=20 unexpected place. And since I don't like non-traversable atom:links, I=20 myself prefer ,=20 though I don't expect it to be adopted. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 30 18:24:27 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dyzkp-0001lK-JQ for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:24:27 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA02950 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:24:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6UMIL2A038257; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:18:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6UMILSD038256; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:18:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.201]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6UMILKh038249 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:18:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so776148wra for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:18:15 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=HGxIWXfwk4HyOIsI1bBBVBfSWLG9Yd7FEZVz2uSLBeS28m4ZYANWEJidfSbfdFNtGNwRP8tb0poVeevoh3X+dctfFzCusR7HeM402xkF35nyx0CuxmKqimoFKeUP1q3EYSwUHT8L75wX7rOy9xP1NNkuCx+XeKrj1+qWejbYa+w= Received: by 10.54.36.50 with SMTP id j50mr897126wrj; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ([67.181.221.143]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 26sm5057924wrl.2005.07.30.15.18.15; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42EBFCA4.8000402@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:18:12 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "A. Pagaltzis" CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Comments Draft References: <20050730203855.GA19596@klangraum> <453E5A50-013C-11DA-A920-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <20050730215943.GB21851@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20050730215943.GB21851@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id SAA02950 I agree. I'd much rather avoid introducing a new namespace for this=20 tho. Nested link elements if just fine I think Using source in this context I think avoids the potential confusion had=20 the link appeared without nesting.=20 The fact that it solves the problem of associating a single in-reply-to=20 to a single source location is an added bonus. Definitely works for me. A. Pagaltzis wrote: >* Antone Roundy [2005-07-30 23:05]: > =20 > >>Pro: >>* Groups the two links together >>* Gives us more options for what to call the inside one without >>creating confusion: "source-feed", for example. It would be >>nice to choose a name that's not likely to be the perfect name >>for some other use, or to define this @rel value broadly enough >>to be applicable to other purposes. >> >>Con: >>* Puts an atom:link in a location not expected by apps that >>don't understand this extension. >> =20 >> > >I like it. > >I=E2=80=99d prefer to eliminate the one contra you listed by using an >extension element for this purpose (as always, nested into the >link.) Of course, that means need a namespace=E2=80=A6 > >It=E2=80=99s a good solution to the bikeshed of naming the relationship, >and it keeps the information about the entry being replied to and >its source coupled together. With a plain old @rel value, you >can=E2=80=99t tell which ones belong together in an entry with several >links of both kinds. > >So far I can=E2=80=99t really make up my mind on any one solution, but >this one seems the most correct, all else considered. > >Regards, > =20 > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 30 18:44:22 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dz045-0005Th-UF for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:44:22 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA03542 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:44:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6UMbP3o039158; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:37:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6UMbP1Z039157; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:37:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.205]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6UMbOM3039150 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:37:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i17so719968wra for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:37:19 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=SkCzimkJ0XgSCTM7HVa2Xilb1nxjkglVHRYEQ2oOW30fcaWHdHGI4RmfrL8PKmsOc8HnF0h0k9+fChtIdc6VPsoYujepZMj/1D8iL7FV6X7YNvA1YYZFfOcWjfjkdgkr2UicZ3kuI2wGzKQ/6A14BeK1WTwqIiU4FcuojEnK/xM= Received: by 10.54.39.79 with SMTP id m79mr2061209wrm; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ([67.181.221.143]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id d16sm870165wra.2005.07.30.15.37.18; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42EC011B.3010209@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:37:15 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Antone Roundy CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Comments Draft References: <91DF485E-0147-11DA-A920-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> In-Reply-To: <91DF485E-0147-11DA-A920-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id SAA03542 One challenge is that for anything besides references to Atom entries,=20 there is no guarantee that in-reply-to links will be non-traversable. =20 For instance, if someone were to go and define a behavior for using=20 in-reply-to with RSS, the href of the link may point to the same URL=20 that the RSS item's link element points to (given that there is no way=20 to uniquely identify an RSS item).=20 This is legal in the spec but is left undefined. - James Antone Roundy wrote: > > On Saturday, July 30, 2005, at 03:59 PM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > >> I=92d prefer to eliminate the one contra you listed by using an >> extension element for this purpose (as always, nested into the >> link.) Of course, that means need a namespace=85 > > > Given that the link to the feed is traversable, and the "link" to the=20 > ID of the entry may not be, I'd suggest using an extension element for=20 > the possibly-non-traversable link, if for either....which would leave=20 > us needing to pick a good @rel value for the traversable one. That=20 > would also keep my con point around: > > > > > > ...unless it were done this way: > > > > > > ...but doesn't quite work, because the logical relationships between=20 > the elements are entry to foo:non-traversable and foo:non-traversable=20 > to link, not entry to link and link to foo:non-traversable. > > I'm satisfied to live with the negative point of having a link in an=20 > unexpected place. And since I don't like non-traversable atom:links,=20 > I myself prefer ,=20 > though I don't expect it to be adopted. > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 30 19:10:28 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dz0TL-000269-V0 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 19:10:28 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA04132 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 19:10:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6UN50Xc041029; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:05:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6UN505T041028; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:05:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6UN504k041012 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:05:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from geckotribe.com (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2005073023045401100i0g31e>; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 23:04:54 +0000 Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:04:53 -0600 Subject: Re: Comments Draft Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Antone Roundy To: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <42EC011B.3010209@gmail.com> Message-Id: <5670455A-014E-11DA-A920-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Saturday, July 30, 2005, at 04:37 PM, James M Snell wrote: > One challenge is that for anything besides references to Atom entries, > there is no guarantee that in-reply-to links will be non-traversable. > For instance, if someone were to go and define a behavior for using > in-reply-to with RSS, the href of the link may point to the same URL > that the RSS item's link element points to (given that there is no way > to uniquely identify an RSS item). > href="http://www.example.com/entries/1" /> > > This is legal in the spec but is left undefined. The natural choice of values when replying to an RSS 2.x item would be the guid, since it's the closest counterpart to atom:id. But if the guid is not a permalink (ie. not dereferencable), then it won't have a MIME type, just as non-dereferencable atom:id's don't have a MIME type. Both of these facts suggest that the following sentence should probably be removed from section 3: If the type attribute is omitted, it's value is assumed to be "application/atom+xml". Instead, I'd suggest stating that if the type attribute is omitted, the in-reply-to link cannot be assumed to be dereferencable, and that non-dereferencable links MUST NOT have a type attribute. Editorial notes about this sentence: A type attribute value of "application/atom+xml" indicates that the resource being responded to is an atom:entry and that the href attribute MUST specify the value of the parent entries atom:id element. 1) "parent" probably isn't the best word here since in-reply-to isn't being defined in terms of parents and children. 2) "entries" -> "entry's" I could add more, but instead, here's my suggestion for replacing that sentence: If the resource being replied to is an atom:entry, the value of the href attribute MUST be the atom:id of the atom:entry. If the value of the type attribute is "application/atom+xml" then the href attribute MUST be the (URL/URI/IRI) of an Atom Entry Document containing the atom:entry being replied to. Anything else could lead to inconsistencies. For example, when replying to an atom:entry that can be found in an Atom Entry Document, but whose atom:id does NOT point to that document, there would be multiple choices available for the reply link's href attribute. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 30 20:15:40 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dz1US-0007H9-Bc for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 20:15:40 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA06221 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 20:15:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6V09tSN047646; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:09:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6V09tMn047645; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:09:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.48]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6V09sCN047637 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:09:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamta10-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050731000948.FWZS22560.mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamta10-winn.ispmail.ntl.com>; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 01:09:48 +0100 Received: from cpc3-stok1-5-0-cust143.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([82.11.128.143]) by aamta10-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050731000948.EFMJ2760.aamta10-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@cpc3-stok1-5-0-cust143.bagu.cable.ntl.com>; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 01:09:48 +0100 Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 01:09:44 +0100 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.51.10) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <613936389.20050731010944@djpowell.net> To: Antone Roundy CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Comments Draft In-Reply-To: <453E5A50-013C-11DA-A920-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> References: <20050730203855.GA19596@klangraum> <453E5A50-013C-11DA-A920-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Saturday, July 30, 2005, 9:55:33 PM, Antone Roundy wrote: > > > I'm not at all keen on extending the link element in this way. Atom Publishing Servers that don't know about this extension that receive an entry containing nested links from a publishing client will most likely drop the content of the link and publish it to clients without the inner link. I don't believe that atom:link isn't usefully extensible other than by creating new @rel values; or if you want something more powerful, use extension elements. Atom's extensibility framework has been touted as one of Atom's major advantages[1] over RSS. Nested link elements sound a bit too much like [2], but without the namespaces constraint. [1] http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/Rss20AndAtom10Compared#x [2] http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss#extendingRss -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 30 20:21:29 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dz1a4-0008BX-W7 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 20:21:29 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA06324 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 20:21:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6V0Edrc047825; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:14:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6V0Edqe047824; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:14:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.48]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6V0EcoQ047814 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:14:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamta10-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050731001432.FXPA22560.mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamta10-winn.ispmail.ntl.com>; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 01:14:32 +0100 Received: from cpc3-stok1-5-0-cust143.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([82.11.128.143]) by aamta10-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050731001432.EFUZ2760.aamta10-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@cpc3-stok1-5-0-cust143.bagu.cable.ntl.com>; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 01:14:32 +0100 Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 01:14:29 +0100 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.51.10) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1007563163.20050731011429@djpowell.net> To: Antone Roundy CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Comments Draft In-Reply-To: <613936389.20050731010944@djpowell.net> References: <20050730203855.GA19596@klangraum> <453E5A50-013C-11DA-A920-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <613936389.20050731010944@djpowell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sunday, July 31, 2005, 1:09:44 AM, I wrote: > I don't believe that atom:link _isn't_ usefully extensible other than by er, that should be "is" -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 30 20:44:42 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dz1wX-0004B6-DO for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 20:44:42 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA07059 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 20:44:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6V0dDAK048715; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:39:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6V0dDGN048714; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:39:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6V0dC2I048707 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:39:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (203.30.247.2) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Sun, 31 Jul 2005 10:40:00 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 10:39:05 +1000 Subject: Re: Comments Draft From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20050730214714.GA21851@klangraum> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6V0dD2I048709 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id UAA07059 On 31/7/05 7:47 AM, "A. Pagaltzis" wrote: > I=B9m -1 on using =B3replies-source=B2; I should have said so more > explicitly before. To me it is non-sensical, as it parses as =B3the > source of replies,=B2 which is the opposite relationship of what > it=B9s supposed to express. It=B9s not where the replies come from, > it=B9s where the entries being replied to come from. "original-replies-target"? e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 30 22:41:25 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dz3lV-0000xQ-MX for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:41:25 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA10566 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:41:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6V2Wiob055829; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 19:32:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6V2Wimi055828; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 19:32:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6V2WgjR055818 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 19:32:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:33:33 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:32:39 +1000 Subject: Re: Comments Draft From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <91DF485E-0147-11DA-A920-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 31/7/05 8:16 AM, "Antone Roundy" wrote: > > > > > ...unless it were done this way: > > > > Why not this... -------------------------------- While true that nesting elements does allow for more flexible cardinality, in practice will that actually happen? That is, how likely is this? Similarly, does this make any sense at all? I can't see how. I've we're going limit the number of sub-elements to zero-or-one, then we can just stick that into an attribute of the parent element. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jul 30 22:49:41 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dz3tV-0002QK-IL for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:49:41 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA10796 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:49:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6V2iQMW056930; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 19:44:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6V2iQRa056929; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 19:44:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6V2iPsZ056921 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 19:44:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gerph@gerph.org) Received: from dynamic-62-56-59-124.park-s46b.dslaccess.co.uk ([62.56.59.124] helo=buttercup.gerph.org) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtpa (AUTH gerph) (Exim 4.42) id 1Dz3oM-0008BT-7m for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 02:44:24 +0000 Received: by buttercup.gerph.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8BF12F52D2; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 03:44:10 +0100 (BST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by buttercup.gerph.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A52FED2C0 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 03:44:10 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 03:44:10 +0100 (BST) From: Justin Fletcher X-X-Sender: justin@buttercup.gerph.org To: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Comments Draft In-Reply-To: <20050730214714.GA21851@klangraum> Message-ID: References: <8B689A7D-0080-11DA-8A3B-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <42EABB9F.4040602@gmail.com> <20050730003835.GC13687@klangraum> <42EBA39D.5020404@gmail.com> <20050730203855.GA19596@klangraum> <20050730214714.GA21851@klangraum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6V2iQsZ056924 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id WAA10796 On Sat, 30 Jul 2005, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > > * Justin Fletcher [2005-07-30 23:25]: > > I'm quite happy with 'replies-source' because it does not > > indComparing to mail seems to be a reasonable thing to do - > > mail has a considerable amount of prior implementation and > > understanding from which concepts can be drawn. However, there > > is no equivilent in mail terms for the purpose of the > > 'replies-source'. > > I=E2=80=99m -1 on using =E2=80=9Creplies-source=E2=80=9D; I should have= said so more > explicitly before. To me it is non-sensical, as it parses as =E2=80=9Ct= he > source of replies,=E2=80=9D which is the opposite relationship of what > it=E2=80=99s supposed to express. It=E2=80=99s not where the replies co= me from, > it=E2=80=99s where the entries being replied to come from. Hmm. I see what you mean. > I suppose the criticism on =E2=80=9Cthread-start=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9C= references=E2=80=9D is > valid=E2=80=A6 but I still think that =E2=80=9Creferences=E2=80=9D is l= inguistically the > closest to what we are trying to express. > > Maybe =E2=80=9Creferences-source?=E2=80=9D From what I've seen of comments it is the terms which are used which are causing problems. This may be partly because of the confusion over the use to which the words are being put - 'replies' is already specified as being the place where the responses to this reply will appear. 'references' implies that there are plural preceding resources being referred to when there is only a single resource referenced. 'start' implies the top of a heirarchy, when actually it could be anywhere within that heirarchy to which this resource is a response. Might it make sense to refer to the documents explicitly using the terms 'parent' and 'child' ? Whilst the mail terminology makes sense, I would b= e pretty sure that people would understand the family-relationship this invokes. Current draft term Familial term replies-source parent in-reply-to parent-id replies children This would result in links such as ... or, as a non-Atom-specific example .. It could be argued that 'parent' and 'child' should really be 'parent-document' and 'child-document'. However, it can be seen from the above that 'news:alt.foo' doesn't actually refer to a document, but merel= y to the method of locating the identifier referenced by the 'parent-id' relation. Does that make any more sense than the three names we already have ? Or i= s the problem I see only in my own head ? --=20 Gerph ... It's never sure, it's never pure, it always hurts. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 31 00:09:29 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dz58j-0000r5-14 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 00:09:29 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA13197 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 00:09:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6V42q2r062330; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 21:02:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6V42qK3062329; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 21:02:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6V42pqC062323 for ; Sat, 30 Jul 2005 21:02:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:03:44 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:02:50 +1000 Subject: Re: Comments Draft From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20050730214714.GA21851@klangraum> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6V42qqC062324 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id AAA13197 On 31/7/05 7:47 AM, "A. Pagaltzis" wrote: > I=B9m -1 on using =B3replies-source=B2; I should have said so more > explicitly before. To me it is non-sensical, as it parses as =B3the > source of replies,=B2 which is the opposite relationship of what > it=B9s supposed to express. It=B9s not where the replies come from, > it=B9s where the entries being replied to come from. replies-referent then? (ie. the target of a reference) e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 31 09:00:31 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzDQd-0004mW-39 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:00:31 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA22673 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:00:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VCsPlg040026; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 05:54:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6VCsP9B040025; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 05:54:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from leela.webpack.hosteurope.de (leela.webpack.hosteurope.de [217.115.142.65]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VCsOvt040014 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 05:54:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bnowack@appmosphere.com) Received: by leela.webpack.hosteurope.de running Exim 4.51 using esmtpa from port-83-236-40-160.dynamic.qsc.de ([83.236.40.160] helo=AS3) id 1DzDKh-0007OW-3M; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:54:23 +0200 Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:53:18 +0200 To: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Benjamin Nowack Subject: Atom namespace, qname-uri-qname roundtripping Organization: appmosphere web applications X-Mailer: PostMe 3.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6VCsPvt040019 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, as the atom namespace is declared as "http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" (i.e. without a trailing separator such as "/" or "#"), term URIs from atom documents are expanded by xml parsers to - http://www.w3.org/2005/Atomfeed - http://www.w3.org/2005/Atomtitle etc. This makes it difficult for automated qname generation after atom docs have been processed by generic aggregators which mix terms from different vocabularies. It would be nice if atom adopted good practice from rdf vocabularies such as dc, cc, rss 1.0, etc and used a trailing separator, so that re-serialized data doesn't end up as which will then break simple atom parsers that ignore xml namespaces. (sorry if this has been discussed before, but the ML archive didn't seem to be searchable..) cheers, benjamin -- Benjamin Nowack Kruppstr. 100 45145 Essen, Germany http://www.bnode.org/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 31 09:27:11 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzDqR-00026W-OF for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:27:11 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA23655 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:27:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VDJ9r9048650; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 06:19:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6VDJ9ON048649; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 06:19:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.fondantfancies.com ([69.10.132.130]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VDJ8IV048639 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 06:19:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (69.10.132.130 [69.10.132.130]) by mail.fondantfancies.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40E5B106DA; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:19:07 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <215C02BB-64C0-4153-BB8F-FA186727F2CA@mac.com> Cc: atom-syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Graham Subject: Re: Atom namespace, qname-uri-qname roundtripping Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:19:05 +0100 To: Benjamin Nowack X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 31 Jul 2005, at 1:53 pm, Benjamin Nowack wrote: > as the atom namespace is declared as "http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" > (i.e. without a trailing separator such as "/" or "#"), term URIs > from atom documents are expanded by xml parsers to > - http://www.w3.org/2005/Atomfeed > - http://www.w3.org/2005/Atomtitle > Exactly which part of the XML namespaces spec backs up this behaviour? Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 31 10:00:48 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzEMy-0001An-O4 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 10:00:48 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA25135 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 10:00:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VDuTwB063464; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 06:56:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6VDuTtd063462; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 06:56:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from leela.webpack.hosteurope.de (leela.webpack.hosteurope.de [217.115.142.65]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VDuS9o063422 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 06:56:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bnowack@appmosphere.com) Received: by leela.webpack.hosteurope.de running Exim 4.51 using esmtpa from port-83-236-44-233.dynamic.qsc.de ([83.236.44.233] helo=AS3) id 1DzEIg-0006q4-Ac; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:56:22 +0200 Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:55:27 +0200 To: Graham Cc: atom-syntax References: <215C02BB-64C0-4153-BB8F-FA186727F2CA@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <215C02BB-64C0-4153-BB8F-FA186727F2CA@mac.com> From: Benjamin Nowack Subject: Re: Atom namespace, qname-uri-qname roundtripping Organization: appmosphere web applications X-Mailer: PostMe 3.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6VDuT9o063457 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 31.07.2005 14:19:05, Graham wrote: > >On 31 Jul 2005, at 1:53 pm, Benjamin Nowack wrote: > > >> as the atom namespace is declared as "http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" >> (i.e. without a trailing separator such as "/" or "#"), term URIs >> from atom documents are expanded by xml parsers to >> - http://www.w3.org/2005/Atomfeed >> - http://www.w3.org/2005/Atomtitle >> > >Exactly which part of the XML namespaces spec backs up this behaviour? No idea, but that's what libxml returns. Which expanded URI would you say should be generated from the qname "atom:feed" given the current namespace uri? best, benjamin > >Graham > > > -- Benjamin Nowack Kruppstr. 100 45145 Essen, Germany http://www.bnode.org/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 31 10:21:03 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzEgY-0005Jv-V2 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 10:21:03 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA26978 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 10:21:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VEH0aF065048; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 07:17:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6VEH0k4065047; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 07:17:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.fondantfancies.com ([69.10.132.130]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VEGxB7065041 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 07:17:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (69.10.132.130 [69.10.132.130]) by mail.fondantfancies.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91941106D9; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:16:58 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: References: <215C02BB-64C0-4153-BB8F-FA186727F2CA@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <6896B6C5-7F46-46F9-93F1-DD770053F87B@mac.com> Cc: atom-syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Graham Subject: Re: Atom namespace, qname-uri-qname roundtripping Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:16:54 +0100 To: Benjamin Nowack X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 31 Jul 2005, at 2:55 pm, Benjamin Nowack wrote: > No idea, but that's what libxml returns. What function are you using? > Which expanded URI would you > say should be generated from the qname "atom:feed" given the current > namespace uri? There's no such thing. represents the element "feed" in the namespace "http://www.w3.org/ 2005/Atom", and nothing else. There's no way of merging them. Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 31 11:06:20 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzFON-00057b-TR for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 11:06:20 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA00766 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 11:06:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VF1ck2068072; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:01:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6VF1cVW068071; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:01:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web42206.mail.yahoo.com (web42206.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6VF1cfN068062 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:01:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jfcst24_public@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 1200 invoked by uid 60001); 31 Jul 2005 15:01:12 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=hUvxMLNNizrtohbBfWpkXMQmdZguUWJOIbF3ZBPaiOQOV1eYR1ZiE0gaBvROwSm/XdKEUvfY1v9jo+UX9pWtC7IYumunbJGnKKnW2BbEjKkkR5QxfXOEWwYmvbNFF5ubIJHAC36jJgXqJdDvF2ucCEAKQAvafvGcrOysuKuu2Es= ; Message-ID: <20050731150112.1198.qmail@web42206.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.155.69.230] by web42206.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:01:12 PDT Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:01:12 -0700 (PDT) From: James Cerra Subject: Re: Atom namespace, qname-uri-qname roundtripping To: Benjamin Nowack Cc: atom-syntax In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Benjamin Nowack wrote: > > Graham wrote: > > > Benjamin Nowack wrote: > > > as the atom namespace is declared as "http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" > > > (i.e. without a trailing separator such as "/" or "#"), term URIs > > > from atom documents are expanded by xml parsers to > > > - http://www.w3.org/2005/Atomfeed > > > - http://www.w3.org/2005/Atomtitle > > > > Exactly which part of the XML namespaces spec backs up this behaviour? > > No idea, but that's what libxml returns. Which expanded URI would you > say should be generated from the qname "atom:feed" given the current > namespace uri? Strictly speaking there is no standard "expanded URI" form for XML names [1]. Each XML name has two parts: 1) a namespace URI 2) a no-colon name Together they identify the element or attribute names used in a document. Think of the namespace URI as like a person's surname (like Nowack) and the no-colon name as a person's given name (like Benjamin). However, they are separate things as defined by the spec and not initially meant to be concatenated. It would be like concatenating a string and a java.sql.Connection object. ;-) However, two different methods were invented that define what an "expanded URI" could look like. James Clark came up with one method called Clark notation [2]. In it, you prefix and postfix the namespace URI with squigle brackets, as in: {http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom} Then you simply append the no-colon name: {http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom}feed This has the advantage that it preserves the semantics of XML names (that the namespace URI is separate from the no-colon name). However, in practice it is hard to work with sometimes. As an alternative - for their work with RDF/XML - the W3C came up with the RDF interpretation [3], where a namespace URI: http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom is simply appended to the beginning of the no-colon name: http://www.w3.org/2005/Atomfeed That's apparently what libxml does. As you can see, with Atom's namespace it is a mess. It is also a mess with XHTML's namespace, XSLT's namespace, and most document-oriented namespaces. But is is still a valid URI that RDF could still use. With RDF-compatible data-oriented namespaces, they are often appended with a "/" or a "#" or another separator for consistency. If Atom followed this pattern, the above might be: http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom#feed where the namespace URI is: http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom# I think this is a good idea and that the Atom Spec should use a hash mark at the end like that. The spec authors just want to annoy us RDF folks, I think. ;-) Of course "it is too late to change." Then again, it has been too late to change for a looooonnnnngggggg time now. That excuse by the IETF is very very annoying to me given how long it has been. But enough of that rant.... -- Jimmy Cerra [1] See the spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names/ [2] Tutorial at: http://www.jclark.com/xml/xmlns.htm [3] Tutorial at: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-primer/ P.S. I think you could use a little more help than currently offered on the Atom mailing list. They can be very confrontational and unhelpful sometimes. :-( Hope this message is informative! :-) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 31 11:21:29 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzFd3-0000Hx-8U for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 11:21:29 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA01726 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 11:21:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VFHbSn070424; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:17:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6VFHbea070423; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:17:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6VFHZxw070408 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:17:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 31 Jul 2005 15:17:29 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-246-126.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.246.126] by mail.gmx.net (mp026) with SMTP; 31 Jul 2005 17:17:29 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:22:54 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Atom namespace, qname-uri-qname roundtripping Message-ID: <20050731152254.GA25925@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id LAA01726 * Benjamin Nowack [2005-07-31 15:05]: > as the atom namespace is declared as "http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" > (i.e. without a trailing separator such as "/" or "#"), term URIs > from atom documents are expanded by xml parsers to > - http://www.w3.org/2005/Atomfeed > - http://www.w3.org/2005/Atomtitle > etc. Let=E2=80=99s see some other examples of W3C namespaces: =E2=80=A2 http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml =E2=80=A2 http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform =E2=80=A2 http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema =E2=80=A2 http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace Hmm=E2=80=A6 PS.: looking at those makes we wonder what all the hubub with the capitalization of =E2=80=9CAtom=E2=80=9D in =E2=80=9Chttp://www.w3.org/20= 05/Atom=E2=80=9D was about=E2=80=A6 Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 31 11:27:44 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzFj6-00018e-CQ for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 11:27:44 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA02049 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 11:27:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VFKf5K070677; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:20:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6VFKf53070676; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:20:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from leela.webpack.hosteurope.de (leela.webpack.hosteurope.de [217.115.142.65]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VFKfC5070664 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:20:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bnowack@appmosphere.com) Received: by leela.webpack.hosteurope.de running Exim 4.51 using esmtpa from port-83-236-46-233.dynamic.qsc.de ([83.236.46.233] helo=AS3) id 1DzFcB-0000gd-8M; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:20:35 +0200 Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:19:40 +0200 To: Graham References: <215C02BB-64C0-4153-BB8F-FA186727F2CA@mac.com> <6896B6C5-7F46-46F9-93F1-DD770053F87B@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <6896B6C5-7F46-46F9-93F1-DD770053F87B@mac.com> From: Benjamin Nowack Subject: Re: Atom namespace, qname-uri-qname roundtripping Cc: "atom-syntax" Organization: appmosphere web applications X-Mailer: PostMe 3.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6VFKfC5070671 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 31.07.2005 15:16:54, Graham wrote: > >On 31 Jul 2005, at 2:55 pm, Benjamin Nowack wrote: > >> Which expanded URI would you >> say should be generated from the qname "atom:feed" given the current >> namespace uri? > >There's no such thing. I see, thanks for the clarification. (I guess atom never intended to allow free -as in speech *and* in beer- data mixing anyway, but another namespace would perhaps have facilitated the inclusion of atom data in existing rdf tools.) so long, benjamin -- Benjamin Nowack Kruppstr. 100 45145 Essen, Germany http://www.bnode.org/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 31 11:35:57 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzFr3-0003Sq-EK for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 11:35:57 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA02587 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 11:35:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VFWE5V071684; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:32:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6VFWEfl071683; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:32:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.fondantfancies.com ([69.10.132.130]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VFWDTl071677 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:32:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (69.10.132.130 [69.10.132.130]) by mail.fondantfancies.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E923C106D9; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:32:11 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <20050731150112.1198.qmail@web42206.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050731150112.1198.qmail@web42206.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <7899F5D8-3328-44F4-A1A6-E668AF014DBA@mac.com> Cc: atom-syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Graham Subject: Re: Atom namespace, qname-uri-qname roundtripping Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:32:11 +0100 To: James Cerra X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 31 Jul 2005, at 4:01 pm, James Cerra wrote: > That's apparently what libxml does. As you can see, with Atom's > namespace it > is a mess. It is also a mess with XHTML's namespace, XSLT's > namespace, and > most document-oriented namespaces. Were the RDF folks not smart enough to think of this problem and come up with a better system or a workaround? > is simply appended to the beginning of the no-colon name: > > http://www.w3.org/2005/Atomfeed I'm off to start the Atomf working group which will produce a standard specification for eed documents. Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 31 11:40:16 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzFvE-0004Lh-08 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 11:40:16 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA02869 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 11:40:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VFYbTP072051; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:34:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6VFYbDH072050; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:34:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.48]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VFYZ8x072020 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:34:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamta09-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050731153430.PHDK22560.mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamta09-winn.ispmail.ntl.com>; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:34:30 +0100 Received: from cpc3-stok1-5-0-cust143.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([82.11.128.143]) by aamta09-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050731153429.LWYX19483.aamta09-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@cpc3-stok1-5-0-cust143.bagu.cable.ntl.com>; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:34:29 +0100 Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:34:27 +0100 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.51.10) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <486468050.20050731163427@djpowell.net> To: Benjamin Nowack CC: Graham , "atom-syntax" Subject: Re: Atom namespace, qname-uri-qname roundtripping In-Reply-To: References: <215C02BB-64C0-4153-BB8F-FA186727F2CA@mac.com> <6896B6C5-7F46-46F9-93F1-DD770053F87B@mac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sunday, July 31, 2005, 4:19:40 PM, you wrote: > I see, thanks for the clarification. > (I guess atom never intended to allow free -as in speech *and* in > beer- data mixing anyway, but another namespace would perhaps have > facilitated the inclusion of atom data in existing rdf tools.) I would recommend shifting Atom into a separate AtomRDF namespace if you want to use it with RDF tools. You'll probably need to anyway to disambiguate things in Atom that are context sensitive, eg link/@type vs title/@type. Actually this raises an issue with my Atom/RDF model. I currently convert Simple Extension Elements to RDF properties, but I probably need to create another triple to preserve the namespace URI of the property - eg: _:entry "53" ns:namespaceURI otherwise, it won't be possible to round-trip properties. -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 31 11:46:24 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzG1A-0005c9-5i for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 11:46:24 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA03202 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 11:46:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VFgRgv072585; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:42:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6VFgR1i072584; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:42:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6VFgPxa072570 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:42:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 31 Jul 2005 15:42:19 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-246-126.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.246.126] by mail.gmx.net (mp004) with SMTP; 31 Jul 2005 17:42:19 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:47:44 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Comments Draft Message-ID: <20050731154744.GB25925@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <20050730203855.GA19596@klangraum> <453E5A50-013C-11DA-A920-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <613936389.20050731010944@djpowell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <613936389.20050731010944@djpowell.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id LAA03202 * David Powell [2005-07-31 02:20]: > Saturday, July 30, 2005, 9:55:33 PM, Antone Roundy wrote: >=20 > > > > > > >=20 > I'm not at all keen on extending the link element in this way. > Atom Publishing Servers that don't know about this extension > that receive an entry containing nested links from a publishing > client will most likely drop the content of the link and > publish it to clients without the inner link. Strictly speaking, per Extensions To the Atom Vocabulary (sec. 6.2), an Atom processor must treat the nested link as it would treat any other Structured Extension Element (sec. 6.4.2). However, sec. 6.2 implies that such elements which have the characteristics of an Extension Element but come from the Atom namespace can only be introduced by future versions of Atom and both sec. 6.4.1 and sec. 6.4.2 seem to explicitly forbid elements from the Atom namespace (although that might only be what my RNC analphabeticism suggests). So Atom processors would have to treat this markup =E2=80=9Ccorrectly.=E2= =80=9D The spec does not allow us to extend Atom in this way, however, and that makes sense, too: what if a future version of Atom were to allow nested links, but with semantics that differ from those in this threading extension? This is exactly the situation that the definitions in Extending Atom (sec. 6) seek to prevent. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 31 11:46:28 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzG1E-0005cm-MV for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 11:46:28 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA03207 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 11:46:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VFgskN072643; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:42:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6VFgrNB072642; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:42:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail09.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail09.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6VFgrnn072621 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:42:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 5892 messnum 2878091 invoked from network[83.70.29.246/83-70-29-246.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 31 Jul 2005 15:42:46 -0000 Received: from 83-70-29-246.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (83.70.29.246) by mail09.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 5892) with SMTP; 31 Jul 2005 15:42:46 -0000 Message-ID: <42ECF174.10004@dehora.net> Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:42:44 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Atom namespace, qname-uri-qname roundtripping References: <20050731150112.1198.qmail@web42206.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050731150112.1198.qmail@web42206.mail.yahoo.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.92.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Cerra wrote: > With RDF-compatible data-oriented namespaces, they are often appended with a > "/" or a "#" or another separator for consistency. If Atom followed this > pattern, the above might be: > > http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom#feed > > where the namespace URI is: > > http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom# > > I think this is a good idea and that the Atom Spec should use a hash mark at > the end like that. The spec authors just want to annoy us RDF folks, I think. > ;-) Of course "it is too late to change." It is too late to change it. In RDF, it's all URIs, not namespaces, not qnames, not something-else, so it doesn't matter if you work to spec. This only comes up when you are trying to roundtrip RDF through RDF/XML (since XML namespaces is such a flaky technology, depending on it leaves you exposed to roundtripping issues). RDF itself doesn't have the notion of a vocabulary that you might want to corden off in a namepace. Arguably, RDF technologies which are baking in 'using prefix as uri' are building on sand. [All of which reinforces my belief that XML Namespaces are broken as designed.] cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 31 11:54:31 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzG90-0007U1-VT for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 11:54:31 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA03655 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 11:54:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VFnE61073017; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:49:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6VFnEZZ073016; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:49:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.48]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VFn9Cd073006 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:49:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamta12-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050731154904.POHO22560.mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamta12-winn.ispmail.ntl.com>; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:49:04 +0100 Received: from cpc3-stok1-5-0-cust143.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([82.11.128.143]) by aamta12-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050731154904.JNHO9998.aamta12-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@cpc3-stok1-5-0-cust143.bagu.cable.ntl.com>; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:49:04 +0100 Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:49:01 +0100 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.51.10) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <345879992.20050731164901@djpowell.net> To: Graham CC: James Cerra , atom-syntax Subject: Re: Atom namespace, qname-uri-qname roundtripping In-Reply-To: <7899F5D8-3328-44F4-A1A6-E668AF014DBA@mac.com> References: <20050731150112.1198.qmail@web42206.mail.yahoo.com> <7899F5D8-3328-44F4-A1A6-E668AF014DBA@mac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sunday, July 31, 2005, 4:32:11 PM, Graham wrote: > On 31 Jul 2005, at 4:01 pm, James Cerra wrote: >> That's apparently what libxml does. As you can see, with Atom's >> namespace it >> is a mess. It is also a mess with XHTML's namespace, XSLT's >> namespace, and >> most document-oriented namespaces. > Were the RDF folks not smart enough to think of this problem and come > up with a better system or a workaround? It is an RDF/XML problem, not an RDF problem, and on the list of RDF/XML problems, there are plenty more serious ones. Anyway, it is only a problem if you are trying to use ns-qualified elements that aren't RDF/XML as input to an RDF/XML processor - or something similar. I'm not really surprised that that doesn't work too well. WebDAV does the same thing with namespaces btw[1]. [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-dist-auth/1999OctDec/0343.html -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 31 11:59:04 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzGDQ-0000DK-Eu for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 11:59:04 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA03806 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 11:59:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VFo7aR073124; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:50:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6VFo7RD073123; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:50:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6VFo557073107 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:50:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 31 Jul 2005 15:50:00 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-246-126.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.246.126] by mail.gmx.net (mp034) with SMTP; 31 Jul 2005 17:50:00 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:55:24 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Comments Draft Message-ID: <20050731155524.GC25925@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <20050730203855.GA19596@klangraum> <453E5A50-013C-11DA-A920-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <20050730215943.GB21851@klangraum> <42EBFCA4.8000402@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42EBFCA4.8000402@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id LAA03806 * James M Snell [2005-07-31 00:30]: > I agree. I'd much rather avoid introducing a new namespace for > this tho. Nested link elements if just fine I think >=20 > > > Nope. As I just wrote in reply to David Powell, sec. 6 of the spec forbids this, and rightly so. It reserves use of elements from the Atom namespace in places other than those specified for use by future versions of the Atom spec *only* for good reason. What if a future version of Atom were to specify nested links, but with semantics that differ from the threading extension? Suddenly, all existing Atom documents with threading clash with the spec. It=E2=80=99s either a regular non-nested link element with a new @rel value or an extension element with a new namespace. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 31 12:00:58 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzGFF-0000NZ-Sw for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:00:58 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA03915 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:00:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VFuwcC073644; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:56:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6VFuwAS073643; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:56:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail05.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail05.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.21]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6VFuvfd073636 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:56:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: (qmail 75860 messnum 3317900 invoked from network[83.70.29.246/83-70-29-246.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 31 Jul 2005 15:56:51 -0000 Received: from 83-70-29-246.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (83.70.29.246) by mail05.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 75860) with SMTP; 31 Jul 2005 15:56:51 -0000 Message-ID: <42ECF4C2.9010906@dehora.net> Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:56:50 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Atom namespace, qname-uri-qname roundtripping References: <20050731150112.1198.qmail@web42206.mail.yahoo.com> <7899F5D8-3328-44F4-A1A6-E668AF014DBA@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <7899F5D8-3328-44F4-A1A6-E668AF014DBA@mac.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.92.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > Were the RDF folks not smart enough to think of this problem and come > up with a better system or a workaround? You should consider digging through the history. The XML folks were the ones who weren't as you put it, 'smart enough' (XML namespaces) and the RDF folks weren't any smarter given they went along with the XML folks anyway (RDF/XML). The ensuing RDF/XML workaround (fragids as punctuation) doesn't work and raises a bunch of other issues related to what # actually identifies on the HTML Web. There's no general case solution to this, it's architectural, which is why it gets kicked up the W3C TAG periodically. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 31 12:06:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzGKE-00018H-W7 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:06:07 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA04309 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:06:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VG1EmA073866; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:01:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6VG1Eax073865; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:01:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from leela.webpack.hosteurope.de (leela.webpack.hosteurope.de [217.115.142.65]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VG1D79073854 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:01:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bnowack@appmosphere.com) Received: by leela.webpack.hosteurope.de running Exim 4.51 using esmtpa from port-83-236-46-6.dynamic.qsc.de ([83.236.46.6] helo=AS3) id 1DzGFP-00060W-Co; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 18:01:08 +0200 Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 18:00:06 +0200 To: James Cerra Cc: atom-syntax References: <20050731150112.1198.qmail@web42206.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050731150112.1198.qmail@web42206.mail.yahoo.com> From: Benjamin Nowack Subject: Re: Atom namespace, qname-uri-qname roundtripping Organization: appmosphere web applications X-Mailer: PostMe 3.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6VG1E79073860 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks for the pointers, Jimmy, and thanks for the p.s. note, just thought that clear *practical* reasons could have made someone rethink the ns decision, but I'm surely late in the game. (That's at least a good reason to directly leave it again. I paid my tax already ;) cheers, benjamin -- Benjamin Nowack Kruppstr. 100 45145 Essen, Germany http://www.bnode.org/ On 31.07.2005 08:01:12, James Cerra wrote: > >> Benjamin Nowack wrote: >> > Graham wrote: >> > > Benjamin Nowack wrote: >> > > as the atom namespace is declared as "http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" >> > > (i.e. without a trailing separator such as "/" or "#"), term URIs >> > > from atom documents are expanded by xml parsers to >> > > - http://www.w3.org/2005/Atomfeed >> > > - http://www.w3.org/2005/Atomtitle >> > >> > Exactly which part of the XML namespaces spec backs up this behaviour? >> >> No idea, but that's what libxml returns. Which expanded URI would you >> say should be generated from the qname "atom:feed" given the current >> namespace uri? > >Strictly speaking there is no standard "expanded URI" form for XML names [1]. >Each XML name has two parts: > >1) a namespace URI >2) a no-colon name > >Together they identify the element or attribute names used in a document. >Think of the namespace URI as like a person's surname (like Nowack) and the >no-colon name as a person's given name (like Benjamin). However, they are >separate things as defined by the spec and not initially meant to be >concatenated. It would be like concatenating a string and a >java.sql.Connection object. ;-) > >However, two different methods were invented that define what an "expanded URI" >could look like. James Clark came up with one method called Clark notation >[2]. In it, you prefix and postfix the namespace URI with squigle brackets, as >in: > >{http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom} > >Then you simply append the no-colon name: > >{http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom}feed > >This has the advantage that it preserves the semantics of XML names (that the >namespace URI is separate from the no-colon name). However, in practice it is >hard to work with sometimes. As an alternative - for their work with RDF/XML - >the W3C came up with the RDF interpretation [3], where a namespace URI: > >http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom > >is simply appended to the beginning of the no-colon name: > >http://www.w3.org/2005/Atomfeed > >That's apparently what libxml does. As you can see, with Atom's namespace it >is a mess. It is also a mess with XHTML's namespace, XSLT's namespace, and >most document-oriented namespaces. But is is still a valid URI that RDF could >still use. > >With RDF-compatible data-oriented namespaces, they are often appended with a >"/" or a "#" or another separator for consistency. If Atom followed this >pattern, the above might be: > >http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom#feed > >where the namespace URI is: > >http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom# > >I think this is a good idea and that the Atom Spec should use a hash mark at >the end like that. The spec authors just want to annoy us RDF folks, I think. >;-) Of course "it is too late to change." Then again, it has been too late to >change for a looooonnnnngggggg time now. That excuse by the IETF is very very >annoying to me given how long it has been. But enough of that rant.... > >-- Jimmy Cerra > >[1] See the spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names/ > >[2] Tutorial at: http://www.jclark.com/xml/xmlns.htm > >[3] Tutorial at: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-primer/ > >P.S. I think you could use a little more help than currently offered on the >Atom mailing list. They can be very confrontational and unhelpful sometimes. >:-( Hope this message is informative! :-) > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 31 12:22:31 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzGa7-0005Xv-F9 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:22:31 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA05442 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:22:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VGIhgc075761; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:18:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6VGIh0u075760; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:18:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6VGIfM0075750 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:18:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 31 Jul 2005 16:18:35 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-246-126.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.246.126] by mail.gmx.net (mp001) with SMTP; 31 Jul 2005 18:18:35 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 18:24:00 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Comments Draft Message-ID: <20050731162400.GE25925@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <42EC011B.3010209@gmail.com> <5670455A-014E-11DA-A920-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5670455A-014E-11DA-A920-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * Antone Roundy [2005-07-31 01:15]: > I could add more, but instead, here's my suggestion for > replacing that sentence: > > If the resource being replied to is an atom:entry, the > value of the href attribute MUST be the atom:id of the > atom:entry. If the value of the type attribute is > "application/atom+xml" then the href attribute MUST be the > (URL/URI/IRI) of an Atom Entry Document containing the > atom:entry being replied to. This undermines the purpose of the link. Atom Entry Documents can move around; their IDs are eternal. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 31 12:24:43 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzGcF-0005yd-Tf for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:24:43 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA05562 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:24:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VGFwP4075490; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:15:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6VGFwG7075489; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:15:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (imap.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6VGFunp075467 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:15:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 31 Jul 2005 16:15:50 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-246-126.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.246.126] by mail.gmx.net (mp013) with SMTP; 31 Jul 2005 18:15:50 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 18:21:10 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Comments Draft Message-ID: <20050731162110.GD25925@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <20050730215943.GB21851@klangraum> <91DF485E-0147-11DA-A920-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <91DF485E-0147-11DA-A920-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * Antone Roundy [2005-07-31 00:30]: > I'm satisfied to live with the negative point of having a link > in an unexpected place. Except the spec forbids it. Only future versions of the Atom spec may define elements from the Atom namespace in locations that other than those currently specified. Read sec. 6 of the spec, particularly the implications of sec. 6.2. See also sec. 6.4.1 and .2 for how Extension Elements must not be in the Atom namespace. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 31 14:32:40 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzIc4-0006KD-Gy for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:32:40 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA11613 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:32:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VIQ0f7085734; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 11:26:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6VIQ0q9085733; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 11:26:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6VIPwvR085723 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 11:25:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 31 Jul 2005 18:25:52 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-246-126.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.246.126] by mail.gmx.net (mp010) with SMTP; 31 Jul 2005 20:25:52 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:31:18 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Thread/comment extension refactoring Message-ID: <20050731183118.GF25925@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id OAA11613 Hi all, okay, after the latest round of discussion, I think we need to start over from scratch with what we=E2=80=99ve learned in the process so far. My chain of thought: =E2=80=A2 atom:id is an opaque URI. It is permissible per the spec to put such a value in atom:link/@href, but that=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Ccreative= =E2=80=9D reading which I suggested because it would avoid having to define an extension element. However, that was before James=E2=80=99 motion to preserve information about the feed where the entry being replied to appeared. Now we need a way to associate the atom:id and the feed source URL with each other. =E2=80=A2 We may not stick atom:link anywhere besides directly inside an atom:feed or atom:entry, because of the implications of sec. 6, which preserves use of elements from the Atom namespace in unexpected locations for use by future versions of the Atom spec. This restriction is there for good reason: it means that documents which conform to the Atom spec now will conform to future versions of the Atom spec also; if we start putting Atom namespaced elements wherever we want on a whim of the moment, we destroy forward compatibility. =E2=80=A2 This means that coupling the information about the atom:id of the entry being replied to and the source where that entry was found will *require* an extension element or attribute. Thus, the benefit of my suggestion to put the atom:id in an atom:link is nullified and the argument that it=E2=80=99s not necessarily a traversible URI gains enough weight that the proposition should be discarded. =E2=80=A2 In light of these issues, an approach much like Eric=E2=80=99s suggestion seems like the only sensible approach: As you see, I suggest using the standard =E2=80=9Cvia=E2=80=9D relation= ship here. It seems that with all the information we have, it is not necessary to describe the relationship in any more specifity. =E2=80=A2 Unfortunately, that creates a problem for replies where there=E2= =80=99s no URL to identify the feed, such as feeds delivered via SMTP (or maybe via XMPP =E2=80=93 not sure if something like a URL exists there). After all, @href is mandatory (it=E2=80=99s the only atom:link attribute which is, in fact). It seems inevitable to specify an extension element, then. But having both an attribute and an element is unnecessarily complex; so where a source URL is available, that would then be Now this bothers me on the level that thr:in-reply-to is metadata about the entry, not about the link. =E2=80=A2 Where do we go from here? A thr:in-reply-to element for the ID and a @rel=3D'via' link for the source seem like the clearly most correct choices, but how do we correlate one with the other? Each entry being replied to is associated with exactly one source, while each source may supply multiple entries being replied to. An obvious approach is giving the atom:link an xml:id and defining @from on thr:in-reply-to. =20 But that burdens the producer with the requirement of generating IDs unique within the feed document, and burdens the consumer with resolving the crossreferences. =20 It also makes thr:in-reply-to a Structured Extension Element; without the attribute it could be a Simple one. The approach does have the advantage that you can refer to a feed-level atom:link from within an entry-level thr:in-reply-to, but I don=E2=80=99t know that that=E2=80=99s a particularly interesting benef= it. One thing that occured to me is that all thread-aware processors will need to know what to with thr:in-reply-to. Not all of them will care about the link to the source. I don=E2=80=99t know if that=E2=80=99s of any consequence to anything, though. =E2=80=A2 The funny thing about burdening the producer with generating unique IDs (if only within the document) is that he already has one: the atom:id being replied to! That thought leads me to: The only complaint I can register against this approach is verbosity. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 31 14:36:47 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzIg3-0007Iu-0g for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:36:47 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA11923 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:36:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VIVHPb086113; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 11:31:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6VIVHmB086112; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 11:31:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j6VIVFt0086100 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 11:31:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 31 Jul 2005 18:31:10 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-246-126.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.246.126] by mail.gmx.net (mp003) with SMTP; 31 Jul 2005 20:31:10 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:36:35 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Thread/comment extension refactoring Message-ID: <20050731183635.GG25925@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <20050731183118.GF25925@klangraum> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050731183118.GF25925@klangraum> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * A. Pagaltzis [2005-07-31 20:31]: > $original-entry/../atom:link[@self]/@href That is, of course, $original-entry/../atom:link[@rel='self']/@href Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 31 15:44:27 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzJjX-0002L4-Mc for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:44:27 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA15848 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:44:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VJYiCv091854; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:34:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6VJYivA091853; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:34:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.48]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VJYg8m091841 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:34:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamta09-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050731193436.UQAF22560.mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamta09-winn.ispmail.ntl.com>; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:34:36 +0100 Received: from cpc3-stok1-5-0-cust143.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([82.11.128.143]) by aamta09-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050731193436.OCGQ19483.aamta09-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@cpc3-stok1-5-0-cust143.bagu.cable.ntl.com>; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:34:36 +0100 Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:34:31 +0100 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.51.10) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <189169750.20050731203431@djpowell.net> To: "A. Pagaltzis" CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Comments Draft In-Reply-To: <20050731154744.GB25925@klangraum> References: <20050730203855.GA19596@klangraum> <453E5A50-013C-11DA-A920-003065EA6144@geckotribe.com> <613936389.20050731010944@djpowell.net> <20050731154744.GB25925@klangraum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sunday, July 31, 2005, 4:47:44 PM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > Strictly speaking, per Extensions To the Atom Vocabulary (sec. > 6.2), an Atom processor must treat the nested link as it would > treat any other Structured Extension Element (sec. 6.4.2). Only child elements of atom:entry, atom:feed, and person constructs (and pending bugfixes: atom:source) can be Structured Extension Elements (Metadata Elements). Child elements of atom:link are not Metadata Elements, and neither are foreign-namespaced attributes; they are undefined markup. It might be possible to get away with using undefined markup to communicate between two consenting parties, but I don't think that it forms a viable platform for extension. It falls outside of the Atom model, and it can only be preserved between publishing client, publishing server, feed publication, and aggregator if all parties either have special case support for the extension, or they preserve the document's entire Infoset intact along every step in the chain. I don't believe that the latter is a realistic expectation for Atom implementations, so it seems reasonable behaviour for a publishing server to just drop undefined content, such as foreign-namespaced attributes and atom:link children, and to just publish the link without them. Personally, I read "undefined" more like how C uses the word undefined. -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 31 19:42:46 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzNS9-00058p-QE for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:42:46 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA25785 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:42:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VNZ5U2013855; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:35:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6VNZ5bo013854; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:35:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.203]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6VNZ31s013826 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:35:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i28so911040wra for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:34:58 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=as2wLFyf+7PPMD0y0WqBc1tTEGEikHWeN+dZ2BvJ+KMJE4SEQJuEWFh4bqqy8NMaH661jtXva95cLSijSLvmOa/dem+Ds5DzPehEubFt6VwpbbPckgFIeDBoCYUQk1ltTneS021uG2WUt5ypRWTSfc3GNe3ePgEoEqr9IdlZ0Uo= Received: by 10.54.24.49 with SMTP id 49mr2492440wrx; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:34:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.71.13 with HTTP; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:34:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c50507311634d5e7a32@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:34:58 -0400 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: Robert Sayre To: Atom Syntax Subject: Proposed changes for format-11 Cc: Mark Nottingham , Tim Bray , Paul Hoffman , Sam Ruby Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j6VNZ41s013840 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The documents linked below represent the editors' efforts to resolve our single IESG objection, and to fix a few spec bugs that have been brought up in the past few weeks. If anyone objects to any of the *new text*, please speak up. diffs: http://franklinmint.fm/2005/07/31/draft-ietf-atompub-format-11-from-10.diff.html txt: http://franklinmint.fm/2005/07/31/draft-ietf-atompub-format-11.txt html: http://franklinmint.fm/2005/07/31/draft-ietf-atompub-format-11.html Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 31 20:14:22 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzNwk-0002H7-2H for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:14:22 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA26687 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:14:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j7107S7E016605; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:07:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j7107S0e016604; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:07:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com (ms-smtp-01-lbl.southeast.rr.com [24.25.9.100]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j7107RlS016591; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:07:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (cpe-066-057-027-065.nc.res.rr.com [66.57.27.65]) by ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j7107NCA019012; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:07:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42ED67BC.3020604@intertwingly.net> Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:07:24 -0400 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050404) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Sayre CC: Atom Syntax , Mark Nottingham , Tim Bray , Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: Proposed changes for format-11 References: <68fba5c50507311634d5e7a32@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <68fba5c50507311634d5e7a32@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.90.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Sayre wrote: > The documents linked below represent the editors' efforts to resolve > our single IESG objection, and to fix a few spec bugs that have been > brought up in the past few weeks. If anyone objects to any of the *new > text*, please speak up. > > diffs: > http://franklinmint.fm/2005/07/31/draft-ietf-atompub-format-11-from-10.diff.html > > txt: > http://franklinmint.fm/2005/07/31/draft-ietf-atompub-format-11.txt > > html: > http://franklinmint.fm/2005/07/31/draft-ietf-atompub-format-11.html > > Robert Sayre > This is truly a nit: If neither the type attribute nor the source attribute is provided, Atom Processors MUST behave as though it were present with a value of "text". What is "it"? The type attribute? The source attribute? Suggestion: s/ it / the type attribute / - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 31 20:28:01 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzO9x-0004NA-OO for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:28:01 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA27174 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j710NJWK017648; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:23:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j710NJGS017647; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:23:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.fondantfancies.com ([69.10.132.130]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j710NIwl017641 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:23:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [I?@IPv6:::1] (69.10.132.130 [69.10.132.130]) by mail.fondantfancies.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3E00106D9; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 01:23:17 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <42ED67BC.3020604@intertwingly.net> References: <68fba5c50507311634d5e7a32@mail.gmail.com> <42ED67BC.3020604@intertwingly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <72075FA5-D501-4822-AF22-29570D8D9C4D@mac.com> Cc: Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Graham Subject: Re: Proposed changes for format-11 Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 01:23:15 +0100 To: Sam Ruby X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1 Aug 2005, at 1:07 am, Sam Ruby wrote: > If neither the type attribute nor the source attribute is provided, > Atom Processors MUST behave as though it were present with a value > of "text". > And what is this mysterious "source attribute"? I presume you mean "src", but it is not expanded to "source" anywhere else in the document. Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 31 20:34:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzOFs-0005M0-6V for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:34:08 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA27387 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:34:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j710U9j9018834; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:30:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j710U9sT018833; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:30:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j710U8Qg018817 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:30:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so906142wra for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:30:03 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Yn7Fq7UO/aE1lIBAWCvYwX1nkz0FjuFD0V1+jrYuh8oF7aErp0J5LbGmmBHSB3BC/IHrJqN3+4WWnBHd4ZHVkDTUKRP+gmFKETybZYRBxOoXjA3QpxMi0YcPrkBFmStR/8Uuq/Ovp2Qo/0UA/I8YgSoGkW2Hyi2MYMPEcC+8xFM= Received: by 10.54.36.50 with SMTP id j50mr1336834wrj; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:30:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.71.13 with HTTP; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:30:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c5050731173064a27771@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:30:03 -0400 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: Robert Sayre To: Sam Ruby Subject: Re: Proposed changes for format-11 Cc: Atom Syntax , Mark Nottingham , Tim Bray , Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: <42ED67BC.3020604@intertwingly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <68fba5c50507311634d5e7a32@mail.gmail.com> <42ED67BC.3020604@intertwingly.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j710U9Qg018821 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sounds good. On 7/31/05, Sam Ruby wrote: > Robert Sayre wrote: > > The documents linked below represent the editors' efforts to resolve > > our single IESG objection, and to fix a few spec bugs that have been > > brought up in the past few weeks. If anyone objects to any of the *new > > text*, please speak up. > > > > diffs: > > http://franklinmint.fm/2005/07/31/draft-ietf-atompub-format-11-from-10.diff.html > > > > txt: > > http://franklinmint.fm/2005/07/31/draft-ietf-atompub-format-11.txt > > > > html: > > http://franklinmint.fm/2005/07/31/draft-ietf-atompub-format-11.html > > > > Robert Sayre > > > > This is truly a nit: > > If neither the type attribute nor the source attribute is provided, > Atom Processors MUST behave as though it were present with a value > of "text". > > What is "it"? The type attribute? The source attribute? > > Suggestion: > > s/ it / the type attribute / > > - Sam Ruby > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 31 20:36:16 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzOHw-0005g6-MV for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:36:16 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA27504 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:36:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j710VgJv019075; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:31:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j710VgfY019074; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:31:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.204]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j710VgE6019066 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:31:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i32so866208wra for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:31:36 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=TfYOKQBtegYM2SsSyE7ami4kdxTafk3tYGZdZIR0qOuZrs31E04xwxDFrbxhQQUYJWiu+fvt/VblwwNlrJsP76sIMxsVKdvDNcDufy2T2i+ULdUksGPQlgqOpsOzQIQ8IO8FYqmOEmja3RGsSHFj+keUx9mkKBAvoOfv5362DoM= Received: by 10.54.68.4 with SMTP id q4mr2509512wra; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:31:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.71.13 with HTTP; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:31:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c505073117315fd7817d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:31:36 -0400 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: Robert Sayre To: Graham Subject: Re: Proposed changes for format-11 Cc: Sam Ruby , Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: <72075FA5-D501-4822-AF22-29570D8D9C4D@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <68fba5c50507311634d5e7a32@mail.gmail.com> <42ED67BC.3020604@intertwingly.net> <72075FA5-D501-4822-AF22-29570D8D9C4D@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j710VgE6019069 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/31/05, Graham wrote: > And what is this mysterious "source attribute"? > I presume you mean > "src", but it is not expanded to "source" anywhere else in the document. Oops. Thanks. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 31 21:09:55 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzOoU-0002t6-B1 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 21:09:55 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA28767 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 21:09:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j7113SxP021261; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 18:03:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j7113SUf021260; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 18:03:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j7113QRa021249 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 18:03:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Mon, 1 Aug 2005 11:04:27 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 11:03:21 +1000 Subject: Re: Proposed changes for format-11 From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <68fba5c50507311634d5e7a32@mail.gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/8/05 9:34 AM, "Robert Sayre" wrote: > If anyone objects to any of the *new > text*, please speak up. spello: s/forwards-compatable/forwards-compatible/ e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Jul 31 21:17:57 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzOwG-0003t4-UM for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 21:17:57 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA28944 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 21:17:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j711DI54021925; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 18:13:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j711DIKt021924; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 18:13:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.200]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j711D9Uk021915 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 18:13:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so910636wra for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 18:13:04 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=l5uf4QQBXsY2LXcRVcWQ3W7CYrhIJJ30Oeg+tp7UWOJOjIQXPKvtzv9NmphDlYsev4WSxfeFxpEPEeIQzkHfKqjFeE4TUPfye2u0/FKrhw+KN1OseaA0J4PK50xqNGCnnPB4Oh0ORH97V5na38hc7Rxamf8UXerhkTcyNtT39sE= Received: by 10.54.121.8 with SMTP id t8mr1578744wrc; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 18:13:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.71.13 with HTTP; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 18:13:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c5050731181326d10e02@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 21:13:04 -0400 From: Robert Sayre Reply-To: Robert Sayre To: Eric Scheid Subject: Re: Proposed changes for format-11 Cc: Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <68fba5c50507311634d5e7a32@mail.gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j711DHUk021919 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sigh, I can't do anything right today. On 7/31/05, Eric Scheid wrote: > > On 1/8/05 9:34 AM, "Robert Sayre" wrote: > > > If anyone objects to any of the *new > > text*, please speak up. > > spello: > > s/forwards-compatable/forwards-compatible/ > > e. > >