From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 02 02:05:03 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ELwy5-000821-AU for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 02:05:03 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA19541 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 02:04:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j925t6t2083886; Sat, 1 Oct 2005 22:55:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j925t6MV083885; Sat, 1 Oct 2005 22:55:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.192]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j925t4uP083853 for ; Sat, 1 Oct 2005 22:55:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id q17so204269qba for ; Sat, 01 Oct 2005 22:54:59 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:content-type; b=TPXgK8AIopphaVJHCTbDNFhyFzJkr8kmrNfbf9HaA6bs1Gm4meObL2dyyV6B4h/66QMBc4byXSEV+Ui1GAHx1cOMS2WuDAQulNYn2pvSw/+X6RyHUPcFkZ3ibvkswReiXx7CispFf6UweLGw6LflOLOuM2UHaV3X0hf3bWiHslA= Received: by 10.65.116.13 with SMTP id t13mr1847390qbm; Sat, 01 Oct 2005 22:54:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id q17sm2025766qbq.2005.10.01.22.54.58; Sat, 01 Oct 2005 22:54:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <433F762E.2010509@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 22:54:54 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: ACE - Atom Common Extensions Namespace Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------020705080207090206090107" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020705080207090206090107 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As I've been going through the effort of defining a number of Atom extensions, I've consistently come back to the thought that it would be interesting to explore the creation of a "Common Extensions Namespace" under which multiple standardized extensions can be grouped. I've written an initial draft of the concept but before I submit it as an Internet Draft, I'd like to get some feedback from the group. Please review the attached and let me know what you think. - James --------------020705080207090206090107 Content-Type: text/plain; name="draft-snell-atompub-ace-00.txt" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="draft-snell-atompub-ace-00.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Network Working Group J. Snell Internet-Draft September 2005 Expires: March 5, 2006 Atom Common Extensions Namespace draft-snell-atompub-ace-00.txt Status of this Memo By submitting this Internet-Draft, each author represents that any applicable patent or other IPR claims of which he or she is aware have been or will be disclosed, and any of which he or she becomes aware will be disclosed, in accordance with Section 6 of BCP 79. Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF), its areas, and its working groups. Note that other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet- Drafts. Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any time. It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference material or to cite them other than as "work in progress." The list of current Internet-Drafts can be accessed at http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-abstracts.txt. The list of Internet-Draft Shadow Directories can be accessed at http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html. This Internet-Draft will expire on March 5, 2006. Copyright Notice Copyright (C) The Internet Society (2005). Abstract This document introduces a common namespace for standardized extensions to the Atom 1.0 Syndication Format. Snell Expires March 5, 2006 [Page 1] Internet-Draft A.C.E. September 2005 Table of Contents 1. Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2. Notational Conventions . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 3. The Atom Common Extensions Namespace . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4. Registry of Atom Common Extensions . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 5. Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 6. IANA Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 7. References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 Author's Address . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 A. Acknowledgements . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 Intellectual Property and Copyright Statements . . . . . . . . 5 Snell Expires March 5, 2006 [Page 2] Internet-Draft A.C.E. September 2005 1. Introduction The Atom Common Extensions Namespace is a single XML Namespace with which standardized Atom 1.0 extensions MAY be associated. This document defines the common namespace and creates an IANA Registry of Atom Common Extensions. 2. Notational Conventions The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in BCP 14, [RFC2119], as scoped to those conformance targets. 3. The Atom Common Extensions Namespace The Atom Common Extensions Namespace is an expansion of the Atom 1.0 Syndication Format XML Namespace. XML elements and attributes defined as Atom 1.0 Extensions that are standardized in accordance to the process specified in "Section 4: Registry of Atom Common Extensions" MAY use the Atom Common Extensions Namespace as an alternative to defining their own extension specific XML namespaces. The Atom Common Extensions Namespace "http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom/ace" 4. Registry of Atom Common Extensions This specification defines a Registry of Atom Common Extensions maintained by IANA. The members of the Registry consist of Atom 1.0 Extensions that define XML elements and attributes falling under the the Atom Common Extensions Namespace. New assignments are subject to IESG approval as outlined in [RFC2334]. Requests should be made by email to IANA, which will then forward the request to the IESG requesting approval. The request should use the following template: o Name: (A unique informal name by which the extension can be referred.) o Description: o Elements and Attributes: (definitions for each of the XML elements and attributes to be associated with the Atom Common Extensions Namespace) o Security Considerations: Extension elements and attributes introduced by new assignments to the registry MUST be uniquely named within the Atom Common Extensions Namespace and MUST NOT duplicate the function and purpose of other elements and attributes specified by other extensions in the Snell Expires March 5, 2006 [Page 3] Internet-Draft A.C.E. September 2005 registry. 5. Security Considerations There are no security considerations introduced by this specification. 6. IANA Considerations This specification creates a Registry of Atom Common Extensions as described in section 4. 7. References [I-D.ietf-atompub-format] Sayre, R. and M. Nottingham, "The Atom Syndication Format", draft-ietf-atompub-format-11 (work in progress), August 2005. [RFC2119] Bradner, S., "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate Requirement Levels", BCP 14, RFC 2119, March 1997. [RFC2334] Luciani, J., Armitage, G., Halpern, J., and N. Doraswamy, "Server Cache Synchronization Protocol (SCSP)", RFC 2334, April 1998. [W3C.REC-xml-infoset-20040204] Tobin, R. and J. Cowan, "XML Information Set (Second Edition)", W3C REC REC-xml-infoset-20040204, February 2004. [W3C.REC-xml-names-19990114] Hollander, D., Bray, T., and A. Layman, "Namespaces in XML", W3C REC REC-xml-names-19990114, January 1999. Author's Address James M Snell Phone: Email: jasnell@gmail.com URI: http://snellspace.com Appendix A. Acknowledgements TBD Snell Expires March 5, 2006 [Page 4] Internet-Draft A.C.E. September 2005 Intellectual Property Statement The IETF takes no position regarding the validity or scope of any Intellectual Property Rights or other rights that might be claimed to pertain to the implementation or use of the technology described in this document or the extent to which any license under such rights might or might not be available; nor does it represent that it has made any independent effort to identify any such rights. Information on the procedures with respect to rights in RFC documents can be found in BCP 78 and BCP 79. Copies of IPR disclosures made to the IETF Secretariat and any assurances of licenses to be made available, or the result of an attempt made to obtain a general license or permission for the use of such proprietary rights by implementers or users of this specification can be obtained from the IETF on-line IPR repository at http://www.ietf.org/ipr. The IETF invites any interested party to bring to its attention any copyrights, patents or patent applications, or other proprietary rights that may cover technology that may be required to implement this standard. Please address the information to the IETF at ietf-ipr@ietf.org. Disclaimer of Validity This document and the information contained herein are provided on an "AS IS" basis and THE CONTRIBUTOR, THE ORGANIZATION HE/SHE REPRESENTS OR IS SPONSORED BY (IF ANY), THE INTERNET SOCIETY AND THE INTERNET ENGINEERING TASK FORCE DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO ANY WARRANTY THAT THE USE OF THE INFORMATION HEREIN WILL NOT INFRINGE ANY RIGHTS OR ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. Copyright Statement Copyright (C) The Internet Society (2005). This document is subject to the rights, licenses and restrictions contained in BCP 78, and except as set forth therein, the authors retain all their rights. Acknowledgment Funding for the RFC Editor function is currently provided by the Internet Society. Snell Expires March 5, 2006 [Page 5] --------------020705080207090206090107-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 02 03:26:22 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ELyEn-0007zw-Jm for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 03:26:22 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA29765 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 03:26:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j927KKew089861; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 00:20:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j927KK7V089860; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 00:20:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j927KHFC089849 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 00:20:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Sun, 2 Oct 2005 17:22:08 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 17:20:12 +1000 Subject: Re: ACE - Atom Common Extensions Namespace From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <433F762E.2010509@gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2/10/05 3:54 PM, "James M Snell" wrote: > As I've been going through the effort of defining a number of Atom > extensions, I've consistently come back to the thought that it would be > interesting to explore the creation of a "Common Extensions Namespace" > under which multiple standardized extensions can be grouped. I've > written an initial draft of the concept but before I submit it as an > Internet Draft, I'd like to get some feedback from the group. Please > review the attached and let me know what you think. Do you want to start it off as an empty container, or might it be strategic to submit it with a number of extensions mentioned by reference. If the latter, it would serve a bootstrapping purpose for developers new to Atom. A bit like that page for RSS which enumerates a collection of extensions. ---- What about mustIgnore/mustUnderstand? An extension sharing the ACE ns can't require mU, right? e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 02 03:37:13 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ELyPJ-0005AO-1R for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 03:37:13 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA29988 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 03:37:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j927TxXA090541; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 00:29:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j927TxLS090540; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 00:29:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j927Tvnu090525 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 00:29:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 02 Oct 2005 07:29:51 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-250-40.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.250.40] by mail.gmx.net (mp018) with SMTP; 02 Oct 2005 09:29:51 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 09:29:53 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: ACE - Atom Common Extensions Namespace Message-ID: <20051002072953.GA3838@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <433F762E.2010509@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <433F762E.2010509@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id DAA29988 Hi James, * James M Snell [2005-10-02 08:05]: > 1. Introduction >=20 > The Atom Common Extensions Namespace is a single XML > Namespace with which standardized Atom 1.0 extensions MAY be > associated. This =E2=80=9CMAY=E2=80=9D seems really out of place here. Not everything= is a nail with respect to the RFC2119 hammer. Informal language seems called for, instead. > 3. The Atom Common Extensions Namespace >=20 > XML elements and attributes defined as Atom 1.0 Extensions > that are standardized in accordance to the process specified > in "Section 4: Registry of Atom Common Extensions" MAY use > the Atom Common Extensions Namespace as an alternative to > defining their own extension specific XML namespaces. Again, it seems inappropriate to invoke RFC2119 in this instance. > The Atom Common Extensions Namespace > "http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom/ace" Can anyone stick things in the W3C URI space willy-nilly? In any case, my preference would be something like =E2=80=9C/ext=E2=80=9D= , due to both a strong dislike of cutesy names and the fact that the =E2=80=9Ca=E2= =80=9D in =E2=80=9Cace=E2=80=9D redundantly expands to Atom which is already the= re. > 4. Registry of Atom Common Extensions >=20 > Extension elements and attributes introduced by new > assignments to the registry MUST be uniquely named within > the Atom Common Extensions Namespace and MUST NOT duplicate > the function and purpose of other elements and attributes > specified by other extensions in the registry. Might it be prudent to require of extensions that they define a prefix for all their elements? Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 02 03:43:21 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ELyVF-0008NS-0D for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 03:43:21 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA00073 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 03:43:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j927ZdQe090915; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 00:35:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j927ZdB9090914; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 00:35:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from server02.deinternetman.nl (hosted.by.deinternetman.nl [83.98.145.60] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j927ZbYm090906 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 00:35:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fora@annevankesteren.nl) Received: (qmail 22786 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2005 09:35:28 +0200 Received: from localhost.deinternetman.net (HELO localhost) (127.0.0.1) by localhost.deinternetman.net with SMTP; 2 Oct 2005 09:35:28 +0200 Received: from ip54512c2c.direct-adsl.nl (ip54512c2c.direct-adsl.nl [84.81.44.44]) by webmail.annevankesteren.nl (Horde MIME library) with HTTP; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 09:35:28 +0200 Message-ID: <20051002093528.kx9ynn3ukm0gsg48@webmail.annevankesteren.nl> Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 09:35:28 +0200 From: Anne van Kesteren To: James M Snell Cc: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: ACE - Atom Common Extensions Namespace References: <433F762E.2010509@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <433F762E.2010509@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.0.3) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Quoting James M Snell : > The Atom Common Extensions Namespace > "http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom/ace" It should probably be something like "http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom-extensions Having a file and folder of the same name is not technically possible. (Although you could emulate the effect of course with some mod_rewrite.) The idea seems nice though. Less namespaces for people to learn seems like a good thing. -- Anne van Kesteren From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 02 03:52:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ELydj-0001vX-GS for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 03:52:07 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA00229 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 03:52:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j927k1Qi092520; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 00:46:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j927k1IY092519; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 00:46:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j927k0cZ092511 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 00:46:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id v1so118926nzb for ; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 00:45:55 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=JYCq8ik/xa/rVlFAQwAQxvOKQHn1zThs7L4UDYzx02kcbtuIA6wX0EbVSoy/ocmoHyDD5UronW/Tu9p/PicKPBnbw9qjOOxbix7DEjn3UQ/O5TFVluYtnAtfYQYry/EAqB5RJMVpRqygHcqhUEhOHtO+DbY7QWS/cqjFs49npAM= Received: by 10.37.14.41 with SMTP id r41mr1045548nzi; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 00:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id c1sm3130350nzd.2005.10.02.00.45.55; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 00:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <433F902E.8090806@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 00:45:50 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anne van Kesteren CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: ACE - Atom Common Extensions Namespace References: <433F762E.2010509@gmail.com> <20051002093528.kx9ynn3ukm0gsg48@webmail.annevankesteren.nl> In-Reply-To: <20051002093528.kx9ynn3ukm0gsg48@webmail.annevankesteren.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom-extensions works for me... assuming, of course, that Those-Who-Officially-Assign-Such-Things go along with it. The original .../ace URI was just a working thing pitched with full knowledge that it would likely change to something better. (I positively stink at coming up with good names for things ;-) ...) Anne van Kesteren wrote: > Quoting James M Snell : > >> The Atom Common Extensions Namespace >> "http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom/ace" > > > It should probably be something like > "http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom-extensions > > Having a file and folder of the same name is not technically possible. > (Although > you could emulate the effect of course with some mod_rewrite.) > > The idea seems nice though. Less namespaces for people to learn seems > like a > good thing. > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 02 03:55:58 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ELyhS-0002mW-Hm for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 03:55:58 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA00268 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 03:55:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j927npv4092998; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 00:49:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j927npv2092997; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 00:49:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.196]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j927noOB092986 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 00:49:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id v1so119081nzb for ; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 00:49:45 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=IOaKDTr2uopjuR7s9e3pmztmlA2YEL00z6T41WwjH0JpJi3hkzbDocomPNglJLXrxCJfnrd5oB4m7DlzUoa5HCdVwXTdP3R/Z+tokU8yLpqYZhYn+1hr8O613Zshwa1o6En9u3utWTu+f6JjimimZDTlKd95hdTK6OYWdHM2iD8= Received: by 10.36.39.15 with SMTP id m15mr4146761nzm; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 00:49:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id j4sm3132198nzd.2005.10.02.00.49.45; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 00:49:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <433F9114.4030301@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 00:49:40 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "A. Pagaltzis" CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: ACE - Atom Common Extensions Namespace References: <433F762E.2010509@gmail.com> <20051002072953.GA3838@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20051002072953.GA3838@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id DAA00268 A. Pagaltzis wrote: >Hi James, > >* James M Snell [2005-10-02 08:05]: > =20 > >>1. Introduction >> >> The Atom Common Extensions Namespace is a single XML >> Namespace with which standardized Atom 1.0 extensions MAY be >> associated. >> =20 >> > >This =E2=80=9CMAY=E2=80=9D seems really out of place here. Not everythin= g is a >nail with respect to the RFC2119 hammer. Informal language seems >called for, instead. > > =20 > Agreed. I'll change it. >>3. The Atom Common Extensions Namespace >> >> XML elements and attributes defined as Atom 1.0 Extensions >> that are standardized in accordance to the process specified >> in "Section 4: Registry of Atom Common Extensions" MAY use >> the Atom Common Extensions Namespace as an alternative to >> defining their own extension specific XML namespaces. >> =20 >> > >Again, it seems inappropriate to invoke RFC2119 in this instance. > > =20 > Agreed. >> The Atom Common Extensions Namespace >> "http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom/ace" >> =20 >> > >Can anyone stick things in the W3C URI space willy-nilly? > > =20 > I haven't a clue how these things typically get assigned. To me, it=20 just makes sense for this to extend the existing Atom namespace. >In any case, my preference would be something like =E2=80=9C/ext=E2=80=9D= , due to >both a strong dislike of cutesy names and the fact that the =E2=80=9Ca=E2= =80=9D >in =E2=80=9Cace=E2=80=9D redundantly expands to Atom which is already th= ere. > > =20 > Hey, I stink at names. I'll make no appologies for that ;-) >>4. Registry of Atom Common Extensions >> >> Extension elements and attributes introduced by new >> assignments to the registry MUST be uniquely named within >> the Atom Common Extensions Namespace and MUST NOT duplicate >> the function and purpose of other elements and attributes >> specified by other extensions in the registry. >> =20 >> > >Might it be prudent to require of extensions that they define a >prefix for all their elements? > =20 > If you're talking about namespace prefixes, I don't believe so as I=20 don't think it would be something you could reasonably enforce. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 02 04:01:36 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ELymu-0006qR-3Y for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 04:01:36 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA00396 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 04:01:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j927sNbM093908; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 00:54:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j927sNav093907; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 00:54:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j927sMo5093897 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 00:54:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id e12so228203qbe for ; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 00:54:17 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Rm4MqDIl0KnMvwp172ARHSAT/TJZI5vgIOXGmNtdjawtKStg2GXpOdt/B+5s15cWzLQ7/klJJLbet/+x7w5tpD2MnCoqYZ9Ymy2HQbJVes8jtvEOrFxny4hsUHsD01Kq+OeZXZJd5f+y8/+u0MPJWmFWpPs2L6qMX5kXWVlwCCk= Received: by 10.65.156.14 with SMTP id i14mr1885801qbo; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 00:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id q17sm2064353qbq.2005.10.02.00.54.16; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 00:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <433F9223.3010700@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 00:54:11 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Scheid CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: ACE - Atom Common Extensions Namespace References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Scheid wrote: >On 2/10/05 3:54 PM, "James M Snell" wrote: > > > >>As I've been going through the effort of defining a number of Atom >>extensions, I've consistently come back to the thought that it would be >>interesting to explore the creation of a "Common Extensions Namespace" >>under which multiple standardized extensions can be grouped. I've >>written an initial draft of the concept but before I submit it as an >>Internet Draft, I'd like to get some feedback from the group. Please >>review the attached and let me know what you think. >> >> > >Do you want to start it off as an empty container, or might it be strategic >to submit it with a number of extensions mentioned by reference. If the >latter, it would serve a bootstrapping purpose for developers new to Atom. > >A bit like that page for RSS which enumerates a collection of extensions. > > > Been thinking about this. I think it is better to submit extensions by reference. I have a handful of extensions that I'd already like to move this direction. >---- > >What about mustIgnore/mustUnderstand? An extension sharing the ACE ns can't >require mU, right? > > > that would be my interpretation. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 02 04:48:46 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ELzWY-0006Em-Jy for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 04:48:46 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA01133 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 04:48:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j928fAwk097944; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 01:41:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j928fA7a097943; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 01:41:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j928f8TU097922 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 01:41:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 02 Oct 2005 08:41:01 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-250-40.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.250.40] by mail.gmx.net (mp028) with SMTP; 02 Oct 2005 10:41:01 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 10:41:03 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: ACE - Atom Common Extensions Namespace Message-ID: <20051002084103.GA4039@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <433F762E.2010509@gmail.com> <20051002072953.GA3838@klangraum> <433F9114.4030301@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <433F9114.4030301@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id EAA01133 * James M Snell [2005-10-02 09:50]: > >Might it be prudent to require of extensions that they define > >a prefix for all their elements? >=20 > If you're talking about namespace prefixes, I don't believe so > as I don't think it would be something you could reasonably > enforce. No, I mean an element name prefix. So f.ex. your indexing extension would have all its elements start with =E2=80=9Cidx-=E2=80=9D o= r =E2=80=9Cx-=E2=80=9D or something whereas the comments one would use =E2=80= =9Cthr-=E2=80=9D maybe. I=E2=80=99m not sure I like the idea myself, but I=E2=80=99m also a littl= e apprehensive about just dumping everything into an entirely flat space. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 02 05:27:46 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EM08I-0000Tl-Ao for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 05:27:46 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA03467 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 05:27:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j929KOgp006578; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 02:20:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j929KOJM006577; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 02:20:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from server02.deinternetman.nl (hosted.by.deinternetman.nl [83.98.145.60] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j929KNHv006571 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 02:20:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fora@annevankesteren.nl) Received: (qmail 25919 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2005 11:20:24 +0200 Received: from localhost.deinternetman.net (HELO localhost) (127.0.0.1) by localhost.deinternetman.net with SMTP; 2 Oct 2005 11:20:24 +0200 Received: from ip54512c2c.direct-adsl.nl (ip54512c2c.direct-adsl.nl [84.81.44.44]) by webmail.annevankesteren.nl (Horde MIME library) with HTTP; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 11:20:24 +0200 Message-ID: <20051002112024.sgnlqi2qlyqs0cwc@webmail.annevankesteren.nl> Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 11:20:24 +0200 From: Anne van Kesteren To: "A. Pagaltzis" Cc: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: ACE - Atom Common Extensions Namespace References: <433F762E.2010509@gmail.com> <20051002072953.GA3838@klangraum> <433F9114.4030301@gmail.com> <20051002084103.GA4039@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20051002084103.GA4039@klangraum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.0.3) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j929KOHv006572 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id FAA03467 Quoting "A. Pagaltzis" : > No, I mean an element name prefix. So f.ex. your indexing > extension would have all its elements start with =E2=80=9Cidx-=E2=80=9D= or > =E2=80=9Cx-=E2=80=9D or something whereas the comments one would use =E2= =80=9Cthr-=E2=80=9D > maybe. It is either namespaces or this. As we have namespaces, we should not do = this. --=20 Anne van Kesteren From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 02 06:40:29 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EM1Ge-00089r-U8 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 06:40:29 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA06752 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 06:40:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j92AWYwN016110; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 03:32:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j92AWYuN016109; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 03:32:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ptb-relay03.plus.net (ptb-relay03.plus.net [212.159.14.214]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j92AWVxM016099 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 03:32:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pmrobinson@gmx.net) Received: from [80.229.20.190] (helo=[192.168.0.8]) by ptb-relay03.plus.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1EM18r-0006GK-1c for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 11:32:25 +0100 To: atom-syntax@imc.org (Atom Syntax) In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: Feed History -04 From: pmrobinson@gmx.net (Peter Robinson) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 11:32:25 +0100 Message-ID: <1h3sx9j.adq713hhdkvlM%pmrobinson@gmx.net> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.7 (Mac OS X version 10.3.9) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: James Holderness wrote: [About feed history and atom:link vs. fh:prev] > I'm surprised nobody else has commented though. To me this seems like one of > the most important extensions to Atom/RSS, and yet there aren't exactly > hordes of people rushing to implement it or at least committing to do > something once it's officially released. Or have I just missed previous > discussions on the subject? As a feed producer, I would love for feed consumers to be able to pull back the history of my feeds if they choose. But unfortunately seeing the way this discussion is going, and the (for me) closely related ordering extension, I'm not convinced I will be able to use them. Of couse if you don't turn up, you don't get to complain about decisions that get made, and unfortunately I don't have as much time as I'd like to participate in these discusions. But it's not that I don't care. As far as the question at hand, I would be able to implent it in my Atom/RSS2 feed generator easily enough either way. Obviously it will be a small amount of extra work if there is a format-dependent difference. Playing devil's advocate for a minute, is it very wrong to use atom:link for feed history in *RSS2*? Regards, Peter -- Peter Robinson From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 02 12:33:49 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EM6mZ-0006PW-NV for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 12:33:49 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA22421 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 12:33:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j92GOJ9H075868; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 09:24:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j92GOJZV075867; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 09:24:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.199]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j92GOGqV075857 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 09:24:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id v1so143477nzb for ; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 09:24:11 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=j54YNzwh3il3fJX6G1tRt+qWZ0B/FayPLKA0zsv7YqPpa/T17scWbnCcHRoOxfgH3mYpPnBqWMfgwPpra8FizjT3bPQnXJe0ZsI+uxKlckJHsd95qI2ZwitgoXwcF4sKKDxC+wSIXEdqmdVe/7XUvvlpNLvZJGtljYX0qSuGi9Q= Received: by 10.36.108.12 with SMTP id g12mr2894245nzc; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 09:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id p4sm3287864nzc.2005.10.02.09.24.10; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 09:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <434009A6.5040400@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 09:24:06 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anne van Kesteren CC: "A. Pagaltzis" , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: ACE - Atom Common Extensions Namespace References: <433F762E.2010509@gmail.com> <20051002072953.GA3838@klangraum> <433F9114.4030301@gmail.com> <20051002084103.GA4039@klangraum> <20051002112024.sgnlqi2qlyqs0cwc@webmail.annevankesteren.nl> In-Reply-To: <20051002112024.sgnlqi2qlyqs0cwc@webmail.annevankesteren.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id MAA22421 +1, introducing something like this would pretty much negate the purpose=20 of the common namespace. Anne van Kesteren wrote: > > Quoting "A. Pagaltzis" : > >> No, I mean an element name prefix. So f.ex. your indexing >> extension would have all its elements start with =E2=80=9Cidx-=E2=80=9D= or >> =E2=80=9Cx-=E2=80=9D or something whereas the comments one would use =E2= =80=9Cthr-=E2=80=9D >> maybe. > > > It is either namespaces or this. As we have namespaces, we should not=20 > do this. > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 02 12:34:25 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EM6nA-0006i4-UB for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 12:34:25 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA22466 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 12:34:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j92GRXpd076129; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 09:27:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j92GRXeO076128; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 09:27:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.195]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j92GRWEe076119 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 09:27:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 8so23288nzo for ; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 09:27:27 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=RiZtL02HCvzyuR4sf3MtFcSg8xGZ8eRSLDtJrnRoFM6LK7AqROkiwcGyi4rNDf6IcrmuU6yzN6T932prp51djJESG6yA0uq5MuR+ub52E7d5MRc2GlUuUhGhp16QlFDhBofoori3tSDMFiZsWuKhixzPLo6wS4FOkey9tpcTeaI= Received: by 10.36.79.6 with SMTP id c6mr190412nzb; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 09:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 38sm3283513nzf.2005.10.02.09.27.26; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 09:27:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43400A6A.30200@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 09:27:22 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Robinson CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Feed History -04 References: <1h3sx9j.adq713hhdkvlM%pmrobinson@gmx.net> In-Reply-To: <1h3sx9j.adq713hhdkvlM%pmrobinson@gmx.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Robinson wrote: >As far as the question at hand, I would be able to implent it in my >Atom/RSS2 feed generator easily enough either way. Obviously it will be >a small amount of extra work if there is a format-dependent difference. >Playing devil's advocate for a minute, is it very wrong to use atom:link >for feed history in *RSS2*? > > > No, it is not wrong to use atom:link in RSS2. There is existing precedence for this and it really does make a whole lot of sense. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 02 18:12:39 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMC4U-0002xa-Or for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 18:12:39 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA05436 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 18:12:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j92M50ne004273; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 15:05:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j92M50Ra004272; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 15:05:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx1.verity.com (mx1.verity.com [192.187.147.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j92M4xH8004261 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 15:04:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wunder@verity.com) Received: from soda.verity.com (soda [10.3.100.96]) by postal.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B4DE6C for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 15:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (spike.verity.com [192.168.4.22]) by soda.verity.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j92M4pW0008775 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 15:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 15:04:50 -0700 From: Walter Underwood To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: ACE - Atom Common Extensions Namespace Message-ID: <575E0DFD72F154DB46FA9C8A@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <20051002093528.kx9ynn3ukm0gsg48@webmail.annevankesteren.nl> References: <433F762E.2010509@gmail.com> <20051002093528.kx9ynn3ukm0gsg48@webmail.annevankesteren.nl> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.3 (Mac OS X) X-Face: 7Vqnb4fOVKsO)3JuUXKxR\M]:e"u'eG`Zue*.((7i7%P%rvZgS[j~95@C-s3i (s!e;OX`'Pngn5lq*Td}#,"5!^jm(65.";[GPtD^c(/1TtMe&wYO;_}\!}fRkxs%q#Jk 5E^BlXwR+8}qOwy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On October 2, 2005 9:35:28 AM +0200 Anne van Kesteren wrote: > > Having a file and folder of the same name is not technically possible. (Although > you could emulate the effect of course with some mod_rewrite.) Namespaces aren't files, only names. So the limitations of some particular file name implementation are meaningless for namespaces. Also, some filesystem implementations do allow a file and a folder with the same name. wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Software Architect, Verity From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 02 18:22:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMCDf-0007Up-47 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 18:22:07 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA06168 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 18:22:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j92MFeWp004847; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 15:15:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j92MFeXa004846; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 15:15:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j92MFe1h004835 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 15:15:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from luke.arno@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id v1so162158nzb for ; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 15:15:34 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=IINqhiWO7/BgrvEALZqh5fMF90uCEB6zrVjJe3p+spJnEoP+i1Wnto/600MLyv4ers0kRfY4s/8IWbsD9q+TVzBUg5kA3zFEEVSx0Ze55CqHzlOj1RXuynS7z/56ArNt4Aqs8OLZWZFtyD9CneB7v4sr7SqqllYs2vO28XysGdc= Received: by 10.36.91.13 with SMTP id o13mr4247973nzb; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 15:15:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.118.7 with HTTP; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 15:15:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 18:15:34 -0400 From: Luke Arno Reply-To: Luke Arno To: James M Snell Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Cc: Peter Robinson , Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: <43400A6A.30200@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <1h3sx9j.adq713hhdkvlM%pmrobinson@gmx.net> <43400A6A.30200@gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j92MFe1h004841 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/2/05, James M Snell wrote: > > Peter Robinson wrote: > > >As far as the question at hand, I would be able to implent it in my > >Atom/RSS2 feed generator easily enough either way. Obviously it will be > >a small amount of extra work if there is a format-dependent difference. > >Playing devil's advocate for a minute, is it very wrong to use atom:link > >for feed history in *RSS2*? > > > > > > > No, it is not wrong to use atom:link in RSS2. There is existing > precedence for this and it really does make a whole lot of sense. > yup. http://opensearch.a9.com/spec/opensearchresponse/1.1/ for instance. - Luke From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 02 19:53:59 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMDeZ-00047k-13 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 19:53:59 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA09619 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 19:53:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j92NlSaY011056; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 16:47:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j92NlSRh011055; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 16:47:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav6.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.78]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j92NlSdV011047 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 16:47:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 16:47:22 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 86.134.110.67 by BAY106-DAV6.phx.gbl with DAV; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 23:47:22 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [86.134.110.67] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: <1h3sx9j.adq713hhdkvlM%pmrobinson@gmx.net> <43400A6A.30200@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 00:47:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Oct 2005 23:47:22.0910 (UTC) FILETIME=[A278FBE0:01C5C7AB] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Luke Arno wrote: >> No, it is not wrong to use atom:link in RSS2. There is existing >> precedence for this and it really does make a whole lot of sense. >> > > yup. > > http://opensearch.a9.com/spec/opensearchresponse/1.1/ > > for instance. Also used in the Universal Subscription Mechanism: http://www.kbcafe.com/rss/usm.html From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 02 20:22:53 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EME6X-0007eU-JQ for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 20:22:53 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA10396 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 20:22:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j930Flwm013027; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 17:15:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j930FlHu013026; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 17:15:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chilco.textdrive.com (chilco.textdrive.com [207.7.108.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j930FlVZ012970 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 17:15:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: from [192.168.2.180] (83-70-29-35.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net [83.70.29.35]) by chilco.textdrive.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29DB9DA8AE for ; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 00:17:39 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4340782A.10808@dehora.net> Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 01:15:38 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: ACE - Atom Common Extensions Namespace References: <433F762E.2010509@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <433F762E.2010509@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.92.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James M Snell wrote: > As I've been going through the effort of defining a number of Atom > extensions, I've consistently come back to the thought that it would be > interesting to explore the creation of a "Common Extensions Namespace" > under which multiple standardized extensions can be grouped. I've > written an initial draft of the concept but before I submit it as an > Internet Draft, I'd like to get some feedback from the group. Please > review the attached and let me know what you think. I don't get it. Why centralize names like this? cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 02 21:39:11 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMFIN-0006dH-IN for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 21:39:11 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA12991 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 21:39:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j931U0tM018497; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 18:30:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j931U0Xx018496; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 18:30:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j931Txs2018486 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 18:29:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 8so50329nzo for ; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 18:29:54 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Pmh3B4t931iuQ6EWvRWvCV4JHqz8OX1AFVbcqsK8w96R3Ouu0qlUTHacqEc9G1/4bAl3h7A3/c/qWz/SqPD5BnL5MLLFP/EBHCQXfu1U9NQv74c/nBO7XUkyQOTp+P0sGxWaYGzU9zKkt/KW2G8QpG94KbMaX/P0WE5TGxlk6Jw= Received: by 10.36.222.3 with SMTP id u3mr5661245nzg; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 18:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id c12sm5805777nzc.2005.10.02.18.29.53; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 18:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4340898C.3020808@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 18:29:48 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: ACE - Atom Common Extensions Namespace References: <433F762E.2010509@gmail.com> <4340782A.10808@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: <4340782A.10808@dehora.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id VAA12991 Bill de h=D3ra wrote: >James M Snell wrote: > =20 > >>As I've been going through the effort of defining a number of Atom >>extensions, I've consistently come back to the thought that it would be >>interesting to explore the creation of a "Common Extensions Namespace" >>under which multiple standardized extensions can be grouped. I've >>written an initial draft of the concept but before I submit it as an >>Internet Draft, I'd like to get some feedback from the group. Please >>review the attached and let me know what you think. >> =20 >> > >I don't get it. Why centralize names like this? > > =20 > Illustration-by-example: suppose that I wanted to use all of the=20 extensions proposed thus far all at once: right now I'd end up with: ... vs. if they were all covered under a single ace namespace: For feed publishers, it is a lot less complex. Extension publishers would obvious not be required to use the ace=20 namespace, but it would likely help in the rollout of new extensions. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 02 22:54:39 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMGTO-0002lR-MV for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 22:54:39 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA14606 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 22:54:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j932nbAE024196; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 19:49:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j932nbvB024195; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 19:49:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.89]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j932naZD024188 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 19:49:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gerph@gerph.org) Received: from dynamic-62-56-56-169.park-s46b.dslaccess.co.uk ([62.56.56.169] helo=buttercup.gerph.org) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with esmtpa (AUTH gerph) (Exim 4.42) id 1EMGIY-0007mg-66; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 02:43:30 +0000 Received: by buttercup.gerph.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4E9E9188C94; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 03:48:29 +0100 (BST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by buttercup.gerph.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49CFFC035; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 03:48:29 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 03:48:29 +0100 (BST) From: Justin Fletcher X-X-Sender: justin@buttercup.gerph.org To: James M Snell Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: ACE - Atom Common Extensions Namespace In-Reply-To: <4340898C.3020808@gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <433F762E.2010509@gmail.com> <4340782A.10808@dehora.net> <4340898C.3020808@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="-1463786496-50574949-1128307614=:24412" Content-ID: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. ---1463786496-50574949-1128307614=:24412 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE On Sun, 2 Oct 2005, James M Snell wrote: > > Bill de h=D3ra wrote: > >> James M Snell wrote: >>=20 >>> As I've been going through the effort of defining a number of Atom >>> extensions, I've consistently come back to the thought that it would be >>> interesting to explore the creation of a "Common Extensions Namespace" >>> under which multiple standardized extensions can be grouped. I've >>> written an initial draft of the concept but before I submit it as an >>> Internet Draft, I'd like to get some feedback from the group. Please >>> review the attached and let me know what you think. >>>=20 >>=20 >> I don't get it. Why centralize names like this? >> >>=20 > Illustration-by-example: suppose that I wanted to use all of the extensio= ns=20 > proposed thus far all at once: > > right now I'd end up with: > > xmlns:fh=3D"http://purl.org/syndication/history/1.0" > xmlns:fr=3D"http://purl.org/syndication/index/1.0" > xmlns:fa=3D"http://purl.org/atompub/age/1.0" > xmlns:fh=3D"http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0" > xmlns:nf=3D"http://purl.org/atompub/nofollow/1.0">... > > vs. if they were all covered under a single ace namespace: > > xmlns:ace=3D"http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom-extensions"> > > For feed publishers, it is a lot less complex. > > Extension publishers would obvious not be required to use the ace namespa= ce,=20 > but it would likely help in the rollout of new extensions. Some questions spring to mind... What should implementors do when both feed history and ace namespaced=20 elements with equivilent meanings are present - which of the two should=20 resolve this conflict ? What should they do if they wish to add a feed history element and the=20 equivilent ace namespaced element exists ? What should they do if they wish to augment a feed history element with an= =20 additional attribute and an equivilent ace namespaced element exists ? Should all ace namespaced elements be decomposed by the processors so that= =20 they appear to be in the original namespace so as to standardise=20 processing ? When comparing documents, does a document that uses the ace namespace for= =20 some elements match as being the same as the equivilent elements given=20 with the base namespace ? When outputting documents, should producers try to produce ace namespaced= =20 elements, rather than the base namespaced elements ? Where the ordering of the base namespaced elements is important, is the=20 order to be preserved if the elements are converted to the ace namespace,= =20 are ace namespaced elements able to be reordered ? When the base namespaced elements definitions are updated, is the ace=20 namespaced definition expected to be updated also ? Will=20 'ace:fh-foo' from the 'http://purl.org/syndication/history/1.0' namespace= =20 be replaced by 'ace:fh-foo2' from the=20 'http://purl.org/syndication/history/1.1' namespace when it is updated ? Can an application which claims feed history compliance, claim ace=20 compliance even if it does not support all the other ace-contained=20 standards because it complies to a part of the specification ? Since elements which are not understood by the processor are ignored, why= =20 would anyone use the ace namespace ? They can get the full functionality=20 by using the (for example) feed history namespace and will be supported by= =20 all clients that support feed history. If they used the ace namespace they= =20 would only be functional in processors that supported the ace namespace=20 and the feed history namespace. Just using the feed history alone gives=20 them all of the benefits and none of the baggage that the ace namespace=20 would bring along. My thoughts on this are that bundling together elements from different=20 namespaces means ... - More work for implementors to support, due to duplicated functionality - More work for implementors to support, due to conflict resolution - The organisation of a central registration scheme - something that namespaces try to avoid - Continued management to maintain a list of those elements which are 'common' - Continued management to update the elements as the base specifications are updated - One more specification to comply to + Less text in the document for authors to read and write In my opinion, the use of namespaces separates the functionality of a=20 particular components from others. It promotes reuse of those elements and= =20 only those elements that are required in a particular system. Bundling=20 these neatly separated elements into a single namespace seems to go=20 against this idea. Maybe I've missed something, but other than reducing the amount of=20 namespaces that need to be declared, and increasing the amount of work for= =20 implementors, I don't think that this gains much. --=20 Gerph =2E.. Some may sing the wrong words to the wrong melodies; It's little things like this that matter to me. ---1463786496-50574949-1128307614=:24412-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 03 00:05:23 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMHZr-0006GW-46 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 00:05:23 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA16375 for ; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 00:05:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j933uidP029164; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 20:56:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j933uiP4029163; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 20:56:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.205]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j933ui1g029157 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 20:56:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id e11so309985qbe for ; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 20:56:38 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=FZ0oHRuZ+HUQDhew25z/ELM73bPnI8chf5/MsFmJrdPyXjsiouSq6u+bBuMoFGbfqMt+LqGQTO1huvOmjnovC4YvN2jArJ8PFa5Gy02JL3UXMBLyo2c+8qeqcEPsqnq2GiFPeRCbxFUTQ2hTBxHq4jbfZqmomoTVbwdMl9d+yms= Received: by 10.64.203.13 with SMTP id a13mr2308355qbg; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 20:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e15sm916848qba.2005.10.02.20.56.38; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 20:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4340ABF1.4030808@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 20:56:33 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Justin Fletcher CC: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: ACE - Atom Common Extensions Namespace References: <433F762E.2010509@gmail.com> <4340782A.10808@dehora.net> <4340898C.3020808@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Justin Fletcher wrote: > Some questions spring to mind... > > What should implementors do when both feed history and ace namespaced > elements with equivilent meanings are present - which of the two > should resolve this conflict ? > Same thing that implementors should do when they encounter any elements from different namespaces with equivalent meanings. For example, what should implementors do if they encounter dc:date within an Atom entry? It's up to the implementation to decide how to handle. > What should they do if they wish to add a feed history element and the > equivilent ace namespaced element exists ? > > What should they do if they wish to augment a feed history element > with an additional attribute and an equivilent ace namespaced element > exists ? > The ace namespace does not take precedence over other extension namespaces. It's just there to allow folks from having to invent new namespaces for extensions that actually go through the effort of being standardized In The IETF Way. > Should all ace namespaced elements be decomposed by the processors so > that they appear to be in the original namespace so as to standardise > processing ? > Original namespace? That makes no sense. The ace namespace would be THE ONLY namespace for elements and attributes defined within it. > When comparing documents, does a document that uses the ace namespace > for some elements match as being the same as the equivilent elements > given with the base namespace ? > eh? base namespace? original namespace? I think you're missing something here. > When outputting documents, should producers try to produce ace > namespaced elements, rather than the base namespaced elements ? > > Where the ordering of the base namespaced elements is important, is > the order to be preserved if the elements are converted to the ace > namespace, are ace namespaced elements able to be reordered ? > > When the base namespaced elements definitions are updated, is the ace > namespaced definition expected to be updated also ? Will 'ace:fh-foo' > from the 'http://purl.org/syndication/history/1.0' namespace be > replaced by 'ace:fh-foo2' from the > 'http://purl.org/syndication/history/1.1' namespace when it is updated ? > There is no "ace:fh-foo from the http://... whatever namespace". It's just element "foo" in the ace namespace. In other words, this document specifies a special XML namespace that is conceptually not unlike the http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace namespace used by the xml:lang, xml:base and xml:id attributes. Individual specs can define elements/attributes as belonging to the ace namespace. Updates to those specs can update those elements/attributes as appropriate. > Can an application which claims feed history compliance, claim ace > compliance even if it does not support all the other ace-contained > standards because it complies to a part of the specification ? > This is nonsensical. It would be up to the feed history specification to define it's elements as being within the ace namespace -- a which time the existing feed history namespace would cease to exist. > Since elements which are not understood by the processor are ignored, > why would anyone use the ace namespace ? They can get the full > functionality by using the (for example) feed history namespace and > will be supported by all clients that support feed history. If they > used the ace namespace they would only be functional in processors > that supported the ace namespace and the feed history namespace. Just > using the feed history alone gives them all of the benefits and none > of the baggage that the ace namespace would bring along. > Again, nonsensical. There is no additional baggage brought in by the ace namespace. The only thing that ace does is provide a common namespace underwhich various extensions can be defined. It is there for use by specification authors to keep from having to introduce new namespaces for new standardized extensions. > > My thoughts on this are that bundling together elements from different > namespaces means ... > > - More work for implementors to support, due to duplicated > functionality There is no duplicated functionality. > - More work for implementors to support, due to conflict resolution There is no conflict resolution. > - The organisation of a central registration scheme - something > that namespaces try to avoid This is a plus in this case as it means that only things that are really "common extensions" become part of the "common extensions" registry. > - Continued management to maintain a list of those elements which are > 'common' Again, this is not a challenge. The success of this namespace will depend directly on how much work is necessary for an extension to become part of the core. > - Continued management to update the elements as the base > specifications > are updated Again, this is nonsensical. the specifications define the elements that are within the ace namespace. The elements are not added to the ace independently of the specs in which the elements are defined. > - One more specification to comply to For the specification authors for whom this is written for. This spec does not introduce any new requirements for Atom implementors. > + Less text in the document for authors to read and write > > In my opinion, the use of namespaces separates the functionality of a > particular components from others. It promotes reuse of those elements > and only those elements that are required in a particular system. > Bundling these neatly separated elements into a single namespace seems > to go against this idea. > Question: under this logic, why was xml:id [1] not defined in it's own namespace? > Maybe I've missed something, but other than reducing the amount of > namespaces that need to be declared, and increasing the amount of work > for implementors, I don't think that this gains much. > Once again, this spec does not introduce any new requirements for implementors. - James [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/REC-xml-id-20050909/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 03 01:08:41 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMIZ5-0007xQ-63 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 01:08:41 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA19129 for ; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 01:08:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j934xlhq032695; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 21:59:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j934xlXo032694; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 21:59:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.89]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j934xjcA032680 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 21:59:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gerph@gerph.org) Received: from dynamic-62-56-46-72.park-s46b.dslaccess.co.uk ([62.56.46.72] helo=buttercup.gerph.org) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with esmtpa (AUTH gerph) (Exim 4.42) id 1EMIKZ-000OqH-4j; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 04:53:39 +0000 Received: by buttercup.gerph.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D8940188C94; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 05:58:50 +0100 (BST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by buttercup.gerph.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E424C035; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 05:58:50 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 05:58:50 +0100 (BST) From: Justin Fletcher X-X-Sender: justin@buttercup.gerph.org To: James M Snell Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: ACE - Atom Common Extensions Namespace In-Reply-To: <4340ABF1.4030808@gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <433F762E.2010509@gmail.com> <4340782A.10808@dehora.net> <4340898C.3020808@gmail.com> <4340ABF1.4030808@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Sun, 2 Oct 2005, James M Snell wrote: > Justin Fletcher wrote: > >> Some questions spring to mind... >> >> What should implementors do when both feed history and ace namespaced >> elements with equivilent meanings are present - which of the two should >> resolve this conflict ? >> > Same thing that implementors should do when they encounter any elements from > different namespaces with equivalent meanings. For example, what should > implementors do if they encounter dc:date within an Atom entry? It's up to > the implementation to decide how to handle. > >> What should they do if they wish to add a feed history element and the >> equivilent ace namespaced element exists ? >> >> What should they do if they wish to augment a feed history element with an >> additional attribute and an equivilent ace namespaced element exists ? >> > The ace namespace does not take precedence over other extension namespaces. > It's just there to allow folks from having to invent new namespaces for > extensions that actually go through the effort of being standardized In The > IETF Way. > >> Should all ace namespaced elements be decomposed by the processors so that >> they appear to be in the original namespace so as to standardise processing >> ? >> > Original namespace? That makes no sense. The ace namespace would be THE ONLY > namespace for elements and attributes defined within it. Ah; I misunderstood. I believed that you were saying that you were augmenting the proposed namespaces by saying 'you can put them in ace for ease, or in the feed history (for example) namespace if you want'. If you're not saying that and instead saying 'you will use the ace namespace for all these proposed extensions' then things make a whole lot more sense. >> When comparing documents, does a document that uses the ace namespace for >> some elements match as being the same as the equivilent elements given with >> the base namespace ? >> > eh? base namespace? original namespace? I think you're missing something > here. The above misunderstanding explains what I'm missing, and explains the rest of the misunderstandings. I had understood that you were duplicating the functionality of those proposals to reduce the necessary space required in the files, rather than saying that all the proposed extensions should move under a single namespace instead. Apologies. -- Gerph From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 03 01:28:25 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMIsD-0007yn-Kv for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 01:28:25 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA19822 for ; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 01:28:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j935G5Zd034449; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 22:16:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j935G5fG034448; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 22:16:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j935G4hX034440 for ; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 22:16:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEF4A3D39B; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 01:16:02 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <433F762E.2010509@gmail.com> References: <433F762E.2010509@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <465FD1BE-0110-4584-B202-FF3FCEA36DC2@mnot.net> Cc: Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: ACE - Atom Common Extensions Namespace Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 22:15:59 -0700 To: James M Snell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My .02, FWIW, and off the top of my head; I think this is a well-intentioned effort, but at the wrong end of the process. The market (i.e., users and implementors) should have a go at sorting out at what's common/prevalent enough to merit this sort of thing; having a co-ordinated namespace will lead to the problem of what to lump into it, how to version individual extensions within it, etc. In other words, some of the benefits of Namespaces in XML -- e.g., loose coordination, well-insulated name spaces, ability to change namespace without changing local name to effect versioning -- will be lost, all for the sake of saving a few characters. Not worth it, IMO. A much better thing would be to wait a year or two and see if there's a need for such a beast. And, the idea of an XML namespace backed by an IANA registry is a little bit twisted, considering the W3C and IETF's philosophies about these things ;) Cheers, On 01/10/2005, at 10:54 PM, James M Snell wrote: > As I've been going through the effort of defining a number of Atom > extensions, I've consistently come back to the thought that it > would be interesting to explore the creation of a "Common > Extensions Namespace" under which multiple standardized extensions > can be grouped. I've written an initial draft of the concept but > before I submit it as an Internet Draft, I'd like to get some > feedback from the group. Please review the attached and let me > know what you think. > > - James > > > > Network Working Group J. > Snell > Internet-Draft September > 2005 > Expires: March 5, 2006 > > > Atom Common Extensions Namespace > draft-snell-atompub-ace-00.txt > > Status of this Memo > > By submitting this Internet-Draft, each author represents that any > applicable patent or other IPR claims of which he or she is aware > have been or will be disclosed, and any of which he or she becomes > aware will be disclosed, in accordance with Section 6 of BCP 79. > > Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering > Task Force (IETF), its areas, and its working groups. Note that > other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet- > Drafts. > > Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six > months > and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at > any > time. It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference > material or to cite them other than as "work in progress." > > The list of current Internet-Drafts can be accessed at > http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-abstracts.txt. > > The list of Internet-Draft Shadow Directories can be accessed at > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html. > > This Internet-Draft will expire on March 5, 2006. > > Copyright Notice > > Copyright (C) The Internet Society (2005). > > Abstract > > This document introduces a common namespace for standardized > extensions to the Atom 1.0 Syndication Format. > > > > > > > > > > > Snell Expires March 5, 2006 > [Page 1] > Internet-Draft A.C.E. September > 2005 > > > Table of Contents > > 1. > Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 > 2. Notational > Conventions . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 > 3. The Atom Common Extensions > Namespace . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 > 4. Registry of Atom Common > Extensions . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 > 5. Security > Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 > 6. IANA > Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 > 7. > References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 > Author's > Address . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 > A. > Acknowledgements . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 > Intellectual Property and Copyright > Statements . . . . . . . . 5 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Snell Expires March 5, 2006 > [Page 2] > Internet-Draft A.C.E. September > 2005 > > > 1. Introduction > > The Atom Common Extensions Namespace is a single XML Namespace with > which standardized Atom 1.0 extensions MAY be associated. This > document defines the common namespace and creates an IANA > Registry of > Atom Common Extensions. > > 2. Notational Conventions > > The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", > "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in > this > document are to be interpreted as described in BCP 14, > [RFC2119], as > scoped to those conformance targets. > > 3. The Atom Common Extensions Namespace > > The Atom Common Extensions Namespace is an expansion of the Atom > 1.0 > Syndication Format XML Namespace. XML elements and attributes > defined as Atom 1.0 Extensions that are standardized in > accordance to > the process specified in "Section 4: Registry of Atom Common > Extensions" MAY use the Atom Common Extensions Namespace as an > alternative to defining their own extension specific XML > namespaces. > > The Atom Common Extensions Namespace > "http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom/ace" > > 4. Registry of Atom Common Extensions > > This specification defines a Registry of Atom Common Extensions > maintained by IANA. The members of the Registry consist of Atom > 1.0 > Extensions that define XML elements and attributes falling under > the > the Atom Common Extensions Namespace. New assignments are > subject to > IESG approval as outlined in [RFC2334]. Requests should be made by > email to IANA, which will then forward the request to the IESG > requesting approval. The request should use the following > template: > > o Name: (A unique informal name by which the extension can be > referred.) > o Description: > o Elements and Attributes: (definitions for each of the XML > elements > and attributes to be associated with the Atom Common Extensions > Namespace) > o Security Considerations: > > Extension elements and attributes introduced by new assignments to > the registry MUST be uniquely named within the Atom Common > Extensions > Namespace and MUST NOT duplicate the function and purpose of other > elements and attributes specified by other extensions in the > > > > Snell Expires March 5, 2006 > [Page 3] > Internet-Draft A.C.E. September > 2005 > > > registry. > > 5. Security Considerations > > There are no security considerations introduced by this > specification. > > 6. IANA Considerations > > This specification creates a Registry of Atom Common Extensions as > described in section 4. > > 7. References > > [I-D.ietf-atompub-format] > Sayre, R. and M. Nottingham, "The Atom Syndication > Format", draft-ietf-atompub-format-11 (work in > progress), > August 2005. > > [RFC2119] Bradner, S., "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate > Requirement Levels", BCP 14, RFC 2119, March 1997. > > [RFC2334] Luciani, J., Armitage, G., Halpern, J., and N. > Doraswamy, > "Server Cache Synchronization Protocol (SCSP)", RFC > 2334, > April 1998. > > [W3C.REC-xml-infoset-20040204] > Tobin, R. and J. Cowan, "XML Information Set (Second > Edition)", W3C REC REC-xml-infoset-20040204, > February 2004. > > [W3C.REC-xml-names-19990114] > Hollander, D., Bray, T., and A. Layman, "Namespaces in > XML", W3C REC REC-xml-names-19990114, January 1999. > > > Author's Address > > James M Snell > > > Phone: > Email: jasnell@gmail.com > URI: http://snellspace.com > > Appendix A. Acknowledgements > > TBD > > > > Snell Expires March 5, 2006 > [Page 4] > Internet-Draft A.C.E. September > 2005 > > > Intellectual Property Statement > > The IETF takes no position regarding the validity or scope of any > Intellectual Property Rights or other rights that might be > claimed to > pertain to the implementation or use of the technology described in > this document or the extent to which any license under such rights > might or might not be available; nor does it represent that it has > made any independent effort to identify any such rights. > Information > on the procedures with respect to rights in RFC documents can be > found in BCP 78 and BCP 79. > > Copies of IPR disclosures made to the IETF Secretariat and any > assurances of licenses to be made available, or the result of an > attempt made to obtain a general license or permission for the > use of > such proprietary rights by implementers or users of this > specification can be obtained from the IETF on-line IPR > repository at > http://www.ietf.org/ipr. > > The IETF invites any interested party to bring to its attention any > copyrights, patents or patent applications, or other proprietary > rights that may cover technology that may be required to implement > this standard. Please address the information to the IETF at > ietf-ipr@ietf.org. > > > Disclaimer of Validity > > This document and the information contained herein are provided > on an > "AS IS" basis and THE CONTRIBUTOR, THE ORGANIZATION HE/SHE > REPRESENTS > OR IS SPONSORED BY (IF ANY), THE INTERNET SOCIETY AND THE INTERNET > ENGINEERING TASK FORCE DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, > INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO ANY WARRANTY THAT THE USE OF THE > INFORMATION HEREIN WILL NOT INFRINGE ANY RIGHTS OR ANY IMPLIED > WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. > > > Copyright Statement > > Copyright (C) The Internet Society (2005). This document is > subject > to the rights, licenses and restrictions contained in BCP 78, and > except as set forth therein, the authors retain all their rights. > > > Acknowledgment > > Funding for the RFC Editor function is currently provided by the > Internet Society. > > > > > Snell Expires March 5, 2006 > [Page 5] > > -- Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist Office of the CTO BEA Systems -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 03 04:11:34 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMLQ5-0000Ow-RC for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 04:11:34 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA10018 for ; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 04:11:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9384tZ4046218; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 01:04:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9384tME046217; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 01:04:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from relay.pair.com (relay00.pair.com [209.68.5.9]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9384rZH046210 for ; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 01:04:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from iand@internetalchemy.org) Received: (qmail 91580 invoked from network); 3 Oct 2005 08:04:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.34.36.197?) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 3 Oct 2005 08:04:52 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 213.205.218.105 Message-ID: <4340D76F.4080407@internetalchemy.org> Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 08:02:07 +0100 From: Ian Davis User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.4 (Windows/20050908) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Holderness CC: Atom Syntax , Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History -04 References: <6543D8BF-09B2-4C03-9721-8779BA024C39@mnot.net> <7130BAF4-B9E3-41F4-A56C-5141CD064263@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 01/10/2005 01:05, James Holderness wrote: > > Mark Nottingham wrote: >> Thanks for the feedback. As I've explained before, I have a pretty >> strong preference for the current design, to make it usable in other >> formats; i.e., the scope of this is not just Atom (which is why I'm >> probably going to do it as an Individual submission). > > At first I thought this was a good idea, but I'm starting to have second > thoughts. The spec as it stands is fine for RSS 2, but I can see a lot > of Atom people thinking that you should be using atom:link (as Henry > suggested) and not wanting to "corrupt" their nice new format. No doubt > the RSS 1 folks have their own preference for where this should be going > and will probably be even more adamant that you do things the correct > way (not sure what that might be - something using dc:relation maybe?) I > would worry that if they don't like it, they won't use it. I think the RSS 1.0 folks would be happiest with a self-contained extension in its own namespace with each term having clear unambiguous semantics. I think Mark's design achieves this. Ian -- http://internetalchemy.org | http://purl.org/NET/iand Working on... Silkworm From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 03 05:40:20 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMMnz-0000UQ-N1 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 05:40:20 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA16682 for ; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 05:40:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j939Yf2c052083; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 02:34:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j939YfmC052082; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 02:34:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j939YdQV052069 for ; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 02:34:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp) Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id j939Xuu27207; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 18:33:56 +0900 (JST) Received: from nodnsquery(133.2.210.1) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via csmap id 07d05e50_33f1_11da_9bbc_0030482533a1_23681; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 18:35:39 +0900 (JST) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j939W5b7021361; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 18:32:50 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20051003182233.079beb40@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 18:24:02 +0900 To: James M Snell , Anne van Kesteren From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: ACE - Atom Common Extensions Namespace Cc: Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: <433F902E.8090806@gmail.com> References: <433F762E.2010509@gmail.com> <20051002093528.kx9ynn3ukm0gsg48@webmail.annevankesteren.nl> <433F902E.8090806@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 16:45 05/10/02, James M Snell wrote: > >http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom-extensions works for me... assuming, of course, that Those-Who-Officially-Assign-Such-Things go along with it. Tim and Paul know who to contact. >The original .../ace URI was just a working thing pitched with full knowledge that it would likely change to something better. Good. I wanted to comment that I don't like ACE because the term is also used in the context of Internationalized Domain Names (where it stands for ASCII-compatible encoding). Regards, Martin. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 03 06:25:16 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMNVU-0008FP-Pu for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 06:25:16 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA18667 for ; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 06:25:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j93AENG7055633; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 03:14:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j93AENBl055632; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 03:14:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j93AEMJ7055624 for ; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 03:14:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp) Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id j93AEFu29651; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 19:14:15 +0900 (JST) Received: from nodnsquery(133.2.210.1) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via csmap id 5de0ecd8_33f6_11da_92dc_00304811fd80_4240; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 19:13:39 +0900 (JST) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j93ACe20021765; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 19:13:39 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20051003185138.0609d990@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 18:53:45 +0900 To: Walter Underwood , Atom Syntax From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: ACE - Atom Common Extensions Namespace In-Reply-To: <575E0DFD72F154DB46FA9C8A@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pa cbell.net> References: <433F762E.2010509@gmail.com> <20051002093528.kx9ynn3ukm0gsg48@webmail.annevankesteren.nl> <575E0DFD72F154DB46FA9C8A@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 07:04 05/10/03, Walter Underwood wrote: > >--On October 2, 2005 9:35:28 AM +0200 Anne van Kesteren > wrote: >> >> Having a file and folder of the same name is not technically possible. >(Although >> you could emulate the effect of course with some mod_rewrite.) > >Namespaces aren't files, only names. Yes. But the W3C insists on having an actual file there, just for documentation at least, or ideally for some machine-readable information (schema,...). >Also, some filesystem implementations do allow a file and a folder >with the same name. Yes. The W3C server could certainly be tweaked to allow that, but it would be easier not to have to do that. Regards, Martin. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 03 07:28:29 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMOUe-0002Ov-Sn for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 07:28:29 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA21687 for ; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 07:28:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j93BKVW9059865; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 04:20:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j93BKVGN059864; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 04:20:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j93BKVUD059858 for ; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 04:20:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 74467 invoked by uid 17064); 3 Oct 2005 11:20:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [IPv6:::1]) ([192.220.66.168]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 3 Oct 2005 11:20:30 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: <465FD1BE-0110-4584-B202-FF3FCEA36DC2@mnot.net> References: <433F762E.2010509@gmail.com> <465FD1BE-0110-4584-B202-FF3FCEA36DC2@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <93B94CDF-D09E-4D41-8333-D0A5268857C3@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: ACE - Atom Common Extensions Namespace Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:20:30 +0200 To: Nottingham Mark , Syntax Atom X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I really like the ACE proposal, and I think the name is a good one too :-) It can't harm to have this option on the table now. No one is forced to use it. But I think it will have a few positive effects: - proposals that use it will have a cool ace namespace name - proposals that want to use the name will perhaps work a little harder to coordinate with other proposals on the table, which can't be a bad thing. Synergies between different proposals might be found thereby reducing the workload on implementors. - The namespace will act like a stamp of approval. It will be an indication that there is some consensus behind the proposal, and that things will play nice together This is not limiting anyone in any way. Proposals that want to use the dublin core, foaf or other namespaces should have no trouble using them. Proposals can also decide to use their own name space like the current feed history namespace. Henry Story On 3 Oct 2005, at 07:15, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > My .02, FWIW, and off the top of my head; > > I think this is a well-intentioned effort, but at the wrong end of > the process. The market (i.e., users and implementors) should have > a go at sorting out at what's common/prevalent enough to merit this > sort of thing; having a co-ordinated namespace will lead to the > problem of what to lump into it, how to version individual > extensions within it, etc. And that is a problem that the end user won't to make himself all alone then. Since every end user is bound to come up with his own idea of how to lump things together, thereby creation an explosion of private lumps, this should in the end also reduce the workload on implementors. > In other words, some of the benefits of Namespaces in XML -- e.g., > loose coordination, well-insulated name spaces, ability to change > namespace without changing local name to effect versioning -- will > be lost, all for the sake of saving a few characters. Not worth it, > IMO. Nothing is lost. All those benefits remain, as I said above. The atom spec has been designed to be open, the ace proposal will not and could not change that. > A much better thing would be to wait a year or two and see if > there's a need for such a beast. All these little proposals we have now indicates that we should work preventatively and at least put the option on the table for proposers to consider. > And, the idea of an XML namespace backed by an IANA registry is a > little bit twisted, considering the W3C and IETF's philosophies > about these things ;) > > Cheers, > > > On 01/10/2005, at 10:54 PM, James M Snell wrote: > > > >> As I've been going through the effort of defining a number of Atom >> extensions, I've consistently come back to the thought that it >> would be interesting to explore the creation of a "Common >> Extensions Namespace" under which multiple standardized extensions >> can be grouped. I've written an initial draft of the concept but >> before I submit it as an Internet Draft, I'd like to get some >> feedback from the group. Please review the attached and let me >> know what you think. >> >> - James >> From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 03 11:10:40 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMRxg-0002po-65 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 11:10:40 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA11227 for ; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 11:10:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j93F3vbr093016; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 08:03:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j93F3vDl093015; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 08:03:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j93F3vnZ092981 for ; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 08:03:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <20051003150351012004i7ome>; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 15:03:51 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: <465FD1BE-0110-4584-B202-FF3FCEA36DC2@mnot.net> References: <433F762E.2010509@gmail.com> <465FD1BE-0110-4584-B202-FF3FCEA36DC2@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: ACE - Atom Common Extensions Namespace Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 09:03:49 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Oct 2, 2005, at 11:15 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > I think this is a well-intentioned effort, but at the wrong end of > the process. The market (i.e., users and implementors) should have > a go at sorting out at what's common/prevalent enough to merit this > sort of thing; having a co-ordinated namespace will lead to the > problem of what to lump into it, how to version individual > extensions within it, etc. I have to agree with Mark. Consider this scenario: an extension gets added to ACE. Someone makes an extension that does the same thing differently. The market prefers the non-ACE method and adopts it more widely than the ACE solution. Now not only do you have multiple namespaces to declare, but one of them has a bunch of elements that don't get used, yet implementors feel compelled to implement them because they're part of this special namespace. Here's another scenario: an extension gets added to ACE, and another extension gets created that does the same thing better. Because the first has the ACE stamp of approval, the inferior method gets wide support, and the superior method dies. Both scenarios suggest that the market should be given time to choose best practices rather than some group deciding which practices are going to get special status in advance. If a feed is going to carry elements from a bunch of different extensions, it's going to be a relatively heavy feed anyway. The overhead of including multiple namespace declarations isn't going to be that great. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 03 13:43:31 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMULb-0007j4-4d for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 13:43:31 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA20673 for ; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:43:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j93HYnZU047312; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 10:34:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j93HYn2X047311; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 10:34:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j93HYlvs047292 for ; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 10:34:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 03 Oct 2005 17:34:41 -0000 Received: from xdsl-81-173-168-29.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [81.173.168.29] by mail.gmx.net (mp036) with SMTP; 03 Oct 2005 19:34:41 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 19:34:45 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: ACE - Atom Common Extensions Namespace Message-ID: <20051003173445.GA19785@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <433F762E.2010509@gmail.com> <465FD1BE-0110-4584-B202-FF3FCEA36DC2@mnot.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id NAA20673 * Antone Roundy [2005-10-03 17:11]: > The overhead of including multiple namespace declarations > isn't going to be that great. I am coming around to the view that it doesn=E2=80=99t offer anything worthwhile. My own apprehension at lumping everything into a flat space, which led me to propose require element name prefixes, should have tipped me off. I=E2=80=99m kinda -0 on ACE now, because it doesn=E2=80=99t detract from anything, but then again that indifference is only symbolic, as I=E2=80=99m also -1 on putting the currently discussed extensions in this namespace, for the same reason. Saving a handful of bytes just doesn=E2=80=99t seem like a reasonable trade-off worth putting up with all the problems namespaces were designed to solve. This seems as misguided as my initial thrust with `rel=3D"in-reply-to"` for the comments extension to avoid a namespaced extension. I think it=E2=80=99s time (for me no less than others) to accept that doing things the XML way is sometimes verbose, and that the benefits of XML simply come at this price. Let=E2=80=99s do things the right way. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 03 15:54:15 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMWO5-0002p0-Go for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 15:54:14 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA28168 for ; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 15:54:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j93JkB9J060597; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 12:46:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j93JkBK0060596; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 12:46:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.193]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j93Jk9tS060589 for ; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 12:46:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i17so163734wra for ; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 12:46:04 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=CL+j+Y055B074qTBlfQOU0j1JoucuT8ZJsflsVMK8O/R+FJq36gBJQoBFbinPcsPyqgu6MSeVFyowLMv2NN7LuRzkJ1o026wuUAjK6KHnq1l0duBUCQib+ymh9G0fdrDoUzU83OEFYI4orQXPA9djhUn2OL3NTtTzFtlIYJ2/Ts= Received: by 10.54.65.11 with SMTP id n11mr858591wra; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 12:46:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 34sm20557wra.2005.10.03.12.46.03; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 12:46:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43418A76.9030207@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 12:45:58 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Antone Roundy CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: ACE - Atom Common Extensions Namespace References: <433F762E.2010509@gmail.com> <465FD1BE-0110-4584-B202-FF3FCEA36DC2@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Antone Roundy wrote: > > On Oct 2, 2005, at 11:15 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> I think this is a well-intentioned effort, but at the wrong end of >> the process. The market (i.e., users and implementors) should have a >> go at sorting out at what's common/prevalent enough to merit this >> sort of thing; having a co-ordinated namespace will lead to the >> problem of what to lump into it, how to version individual >> extensions within it, etc. > > > I have to agree with Mark. Consider this scenario: an extension gets > added to ACE. Someone makes an extension that does the same thing > differently. The market prefers the non-ACE method and adopts it more > widely than the ACE solution. Now not only do you have multiple > namespaces to declare, but one of them has a bunch of elements that > don't get used, yet implementors feel compelled to implement them > because they're part of this special namespace. > > Here's another scenario: an extension gets added to ACE, and another > extension gets created that does the same thing better. Because the > first has the ACE stamp of approval, the inferior method gets wide > support, and the superior method dies. > > Both scenarios suggest that the market should be given time to choose > best practices rather than some group deciding which practices are > going to get special status in advance. If a feed is going to carry > elements from a bunch of different extensions, it's going to be a > relatively heavy feed anyway. The overhead of including multiple > namespace declarations isn't going to be that great. > > All very excellent arguments... this is precisely the kind of feedback I was looking for. In order for ace to be successful, there would have to be a significant amount of effort put into making sure that the extensions that go into it are broadly supported and the best approach to the problem, neither of which we can do without significant implementation experience under our belts. At this point, as the author of the spec, I think it's safe for me to consider it a non-starter. thanks for the feedback! - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 03 16:34:34 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMX18-00023Z-4H for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 16:34:34 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA12692 for ; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 16:34:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j93KSSVh067593; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:28:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j93KSSdX067592; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:28:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf01.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.68]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j93KSREF067579 for ; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:28:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.6.170.174]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EF18A3CAE; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 22:28:21 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <43419476.3030502@cegetel.net> Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 22:28:38 +0200 From: Thomas Broyer User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.4 (Windows/20050908) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Duerst Cc: Walter Underwood , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: ACE - Atom Common Extensions Namespace References: <433F762E.2010509@gmail.com> <20051002093528.kx9ynn3ukm0gsg48@webmail.annevankesteren.nl> <575E0DFD72F154DB46FA9C8A@adsl-64-166-133-243.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> <6.0.0.20.2.20051003185138.0609d990@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20051003185138.0609d990@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id QAA12692 Martin Duerst wrote: > > At 07:04 05/10/03, Walter Underwood wrote: > > > >--On October 2, 2005 9:35:28 AM +0200 Anne van Kesteren > > wrote: > >> > >> Having a file and folder of the same name is not technically possibl= e. > >(Although > >> you could emulate the effect of course with some mod_rewrite.) > > > >Namespaces aren't files, only names. > > Yes. But the W3C insists on having an actual file there, just > for documentation at least, or ideally for some machine-readable > information (schema,...). > > >Also, some filesystem implementations do allow a file and a folder > >with the same name. > > Yes. The W3C server could certainly be tweaked to allow that, > but it would be easier not to have to do that. Hey wake up! If http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom maps to a file system folder, any web=20 server that I know of will send a redirect to=20 http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom/ and "display" the directory index file=20 (index.html, default.htm, etc.) Moreover, there is precedence at w3.org to use URI without a trailing=20 "/" as "public identifiers" (cool URIs?) when they actually are "folders"= : See the "last version" links to CSS2 and DOM Level 2 recommendations: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2 http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Core http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-HTML http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Style http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Views =85 I really don't understand why you're discussing this sort of thing=85 We=20 could really have an http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom/extensions namespace. --=20 Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 03 16:34:54 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMX1P-0002lD-Lk for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 16:34:54 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA12736 for ; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 16:34:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j93KRikB067464; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:27:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j93KRiBc067463; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:27:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ljubljana.agtrz.com (agtrz.com [69.20.9.152]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j93KRisB067457 for ; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:27:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alan-atom@engrm.com) Received: (qmail 9440 invoked by uid 502); 3 Oct 2005 20:27:43 -0000 Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 16:27:43 -0400 From: Alan Gutierrez To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Next and Previous Message-ID: <20051003202743.GB9049@maribor.izzy.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Mailer: Mutt http://www.mutt.org/ X-Editor: Vim 6.1 http://www.vim.org/ X-Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan, United States of America Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: What is the proper way to indicate the next chunk of articles in the feed? Is it link[@related] and if so what value for related? Where would someone put the offset? If this is not a good place for general Atom questions, please tell me which forum is more appropriate. Thank you. -- Alan Gutierrez - alan@engrm.com - http://engrm.com/blogometer/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 03 16:44:04 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMXAK-00070q-J0 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 16:44:04 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA13645 for ; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 16:44:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j93Kc5cN068587; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:38:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j93Kc5FS068586; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:38:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf00.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.67]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j93Kc45D068573 for ; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:38:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.6.170.174]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2D011A4175; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 22:37:58 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <434196C2.8000009@cegetel.net> Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 22:38:26 +0200 From: Thomas Broyer User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.4 (Windows/20050908) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham Cc: James M Snell , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: ACE - Atom Common Extensions Namespace References: <433F762E.2010509@gmail.com> <465FD1BE-0110-4584-B202-FF3FCEA36DC2@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <465FD1BE-0110-4584-B202-FF3FCEA36DC2@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Nottingham wrote: > > My .02, FWIW, and off the top of my head; > > I think this is a well-intentioned effort, but at the wrong end of the > process. The market (i.e., users and implementors) should have a go at > sorting out at what's common/prevalent enough to merit this sort of > thing; having a co-ordinated namespace will lead to the problem of > what to lump into it, how to version individual extensions within it, > etc. > > In other words, some of the benefits of Namespaces in XML -- e.g., > loose coordination, well-insulated name spaces, ability to change > namespace without changing local name to effect versioning -- will be > lost, all for the sake of saving a few characters. Not worth it, IMO. -1 to ACE, for the very same reasons. -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 04 08:37:29 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMm2y-0006fX-F6 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Oct 2005 08:37:28 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA15185 for ; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 08:37:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j94CT0du072978; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 05:29:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j94CT04W072974; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 05:29:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j94CSvex072966 for ; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 05:28:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 42768 invoked by uid 17064); 4 Oct 2005 12:28:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [IPv6:::1]) ([192.220.66.168]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 4 Oct 2005 12:28:56 -0000 In-Reply-To: <1127911691.9028.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1127911691.9028.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Syntax Atom , Wyman Bob From: Henry Story Subject: Re: Entries in multiple language Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 14:28:55 +0200 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Reto_Bachmann-Gm=FCr?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j94CSvex072967 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id IAA15185 On 28 Sep 2005, at 14:48, Reto Bachmann-Gm=FCr wrote: > > [snip lots of interesting stuff, to get to later] > Note that the first two entries share the same value of atom:updated, > this is a SHOULD-Level violation of section 4.1.1. I think the spec > should allow multiple entries with the same timestamp iff they =20 > differ by > language and/or content-type. In multilingual countries like =20 > Switzerland > it is required (as for laws) or at least a matter of political > correctness (as for press releases) for some publications to be > published at the same time in all language versions. Why not publish content negotiated atom feeds, so that the French =20 version of the feed only contains french entries, the German version only German entries, the Italian one only Italian ones, and the Romansh one only =20 Romansh entries? Then the user would subscribe to the feed serving the =20 entries in the language preferred by the author. Of course since in Switzerland the German, French and Italian =20 representations of the feed have to appear simultaneously they will each contain =20 entries with identical ids and identical atom:updated time stamps. This would not =20 contradict the atom spec which mentions only that in a particular feed document two entries with the same id should not have the same updated time stamp. =20 It is something on the other hand that an ontology of atom would have to be =20 careful about (or a database consuming atom feeds), as it would have to take =20 into account the possibility of multiple language versions of the same =20 update of an entry. Henry Story > The following two entries are in a feed > > > Asylgesetzrevision - Aus humanit=E4rer Sicht inakzeptabel!=20 > > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/=20 > 2005/09/27/050927_asylgnr_presserohstoff_"/> > http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision > 2005-09-27T11:00-01:00 > 2005-09-27T11:00-01:00 > > pro > http://osar.ch/aslum-rights > protection@osar.ch > > xml:base=3D"http://www.osar.ch/"> >
> Der Nationalrat hat heute praktisch allen =20 > Versch=E4rfungsvorschl=E4gen > des St=E4nderates zum Asylgesetz zugestimmt. Der verfassungswidrige > Nothilfestopp blieb chancenlos. Die SFH ist sehr entt=E4uscht =FCber de= n > Ausgang der Beratung. Das neue Gesetz opfert den Schutz von Verfolgten > zugunsten von unverh=E4ltnism=E4ssiger Missbrauchsbek=E4mpfung. Damit i= st =20 > das > Referendum unausweichlich. >
> > > > > > Example Toolkit > > Revision de la loi sur l'asile - Inacceptable sur le plan > humain > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/=20 > 2005/09/27/050927_asylgnr_presserohstoff_"/> > http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision > 2005-09-27T11:00-01:00 > 2005-09-27T11:00-01:00 > > pro > http://osar.ch/aslum-rights > protection@osar.ch > > xml:base=3D"http://www.osar.ch/"> >
> Le Conseil national a approuv=E9 aujourd=92hui pratiquement =20 > toutes les > aggravations propos=E9es par le Conseil F=E9d=E9ral dans le cadre de la > r=E9vision de la loi sur l=92asile. L=92exclusion de l=92aide de premi=E8= re > n=E9cessit=E9, contraire =E0 la Constitution, a =E9t=E9 rejet=E9e. L=92= OSAR se =20 > montre > profond=E9ment d=E9=E7ue par l=92issue des d=E9bats. La nouvelle loi sa= crifie la > protection des personnes pers=E9cut=E9es sur l=92autel d=92un combat > disproportionn=E9 contre les abus. Le r=E9f=E9rendum appara=EEt d=E8s l= ors > in=E9vitable. >
> > > > One hour later an important error in the french version gets fixed > (s/Conseil F=E9d=E9ral/Conseil des Etats/) > > > > Example Toolkit > > Revision de la loi sur l'asile - Inacceptable sur le plan > humain > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/=20 > 2005/09/27/050927_asylgnr_presserohstoff_"/> > http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision > 2005-09-27T12:00-01:00 > 2005-09-27T11:00-01:00 > > pro > http://osar.ch/aslum-rights > protection@osar.ch > > xml:base=3D"http://www.osar.ch/"> >
> Le Conseil national a approuv=E9 aujourd=92hui pratiquement =20 > toutes les > aggravations propos=E9es par le Conseil des Etats dans le cadre de la > r=E9vision de la loi sur l=92asile. L=92exclusion de l=92aide de premi=E8= re > n=E9cessit=E9, contraire =E0 la Constitution, a =E9t=E9 rejet=E9e. L=92= OSAR se =20 > montre > profond=E9ment d=E9=E7ue par l=92issue des d=E9bats. La nouvelle loi sa= crifie la > protection des personnes pers=E9cut=E9es sur l=92autel d=92un combat > disproportionn=E9 contre les abus. Le r=E9f=E9rendum appara=EEt d=E8s l= ors > in=E9vitable. >
> > > > One day later the entry becomes some major changes, and is published > again (in the feed), the new version is currently only available in > german > > > > Example Toolkit > > Asylgesetzrevision - Aus humanit=E4rer Sicht fragw=FCrdig</=20 > title> > <link rel=3D"self" type=3D"text/html" hreflang=3D"de" > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > <link rel=3D"self" type=3D"application/rdf+n3" hreflang=3D"de" > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > <link rel=3D"self" type=3D"text/html" hreflang=3D"fr" > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > <link rel=3D"self" type=3D"application/rdf+n3" hreflang=3D"fr" > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > <link rel=3D"enclosure" length=3D"92678" title=3D"Presserohstoff" > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/=20 > 2005/09/27/050927_asylgnr_presserohstoff_"/> > <id>http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision</id> > <updated>2005-09-28T11:00-01:00</updated> > <published>2005-09-27T11:00-01:00</published> > <author> > <name>pro</name> > <uri>http://osar.ch/aslum-rights</uri> > <email>protection@osar.ch</email> > </author> > <summary type=3D"xhtml" > xml:base=3D"http://www.osar.ch/"> > <div xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> > Der Nationalrat hat heute praktisch allen =20 > Versch=E4rfungsvorschl=E4gen > des St=E4nderates zum Asylgesetz zugestimmt. Der verfassungswidrige > Nothilfestopp blieb chancenlos. Die SFH ist sehr entt=E4uscht =FCber de= n > Ausgang der Beratung. Das neue Gesetz opfert den Schutz von Verfolgten > zugunsten von unverh=E4ltnism=E4ssiger Missbrauchsbek=E4mpfung. > </div> > </summary> > </entry> > > > > > > reto > > > > > 1. http://wymiwyg.org/knobot > 2. http://www.osar.ch/ > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 04 19:16:41 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMw1Z-0007qW-4n for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Oct 2005 19:16:41 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA15655 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 19:16:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j94N8vLN050735; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 16:08:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j94N8vLT050734; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 16:08:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from minerva.ectoplasm.org ([66.34.202.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j94N8u5S050718 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 16:08:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yining@ectoplasm.org) Received: from minerva.ectoplasm.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pmx.secure.ectoplasm.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A11215EB32; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 16:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.77.222] (unknown [218.5.12.237]) by minerva.ectoplasm.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FE635EB21; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 16:08:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43430B73.5060104@ectoplasm.org> Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 07:08:35 +0800 From: Zhang Yining <yining@ectoplasm.org> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?UmV0byDvv70=?= <reto@gmuer.ch> CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Entries in multiple language References: <1127911691.9028.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1127911691.9028.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-PMX-Version: 4.7.1.128075, Antispam-Engine: 2.1.0.0, Antispam-Data: 2005.10.4.28 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='__CT 0, __CTE 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __HIGHBITS 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __STOCK_CRUFT 0, __USER_AGENT 0' Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id TAA15655 Reto Bachmann-Gm=C3=BCr wrote: >I'm trying to implement Atom support for KnoBot [1], the KnoBot CMS >supports entries and feeds in multiple language with http-language >negotiation. > >Reading the spec I'm not sure how an entry should be described in >multiple language, more specifically how updates of a multilingual entry >should be communicated. > >The examples below are based on a real press release published by my >employer the Swiss Refugee Council [2], the URLs are real and refer to >the multilingual press release. For the purpose of the example however, >I made fictional changes to the content. > >My questions are: >- Is this the atom-way of dealing with different language versions? > =20 > Is it possible that different languages have different ID's? >- While the first update does not outdate the original German version >but fixes a "bug" in the language version the second update oudates the >existing french versions, how can this be expressed? (the idea of >publishing an 'empty' french entry seems not an option because because >of the required element of entry and because of the possibility that the >entry has been published in other languages by sources the publisher is >not aware of.) > >Note that the first two entries share the same value of atom:updated, >this is a SHOULD-Level violation of section 4.1.1. I think the spec >should allow multiple entries with the same timestamp iff they differ by >language and/or content-type. In multilingual countries like Switzerland >it is required (as for laws) or at least a matter of political >correctness (as for press releases) for some publications to be >published at the same time in all language versions. > >The following two entries are in a feed > =20 ><entry xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" xml:lang=3D"de"> > <title>Asylgesetzrevision - Aus humanit=C3=A4rer Sicht inakzeptabel!</t= itle> > <link DEFANGED_rel=3D"self" type=3D"text/html" DEFANGED_hreflang=3D"de" > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > <link DEFANGED_rel=3D"self" DEFANGED_type=3D"application/rdf+n3" DEFANG= ED_hreflang=3D"de" > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > <link DEFANGED_rel=3D"self" type=3D"text/html" DEFANGED_hreflang=3D"fr" > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > <link DEFANGED_rel=3D"self" DEFANGED_type=3D"application/rdf+n3" DEFANG= ED_hreflang=3D"fr" > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > <link DEFANGED_rel=3D"enclosure" DEFANGED_length=3D"92678" title=3D"Pre= sserohstoff" > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/050927_asylgnr_presserohstoff_"/= > > <id>http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision</id> > <updated>2005-09-27T11:00-01:00</updated> > <published>2005-09-27T11:00-01:00</published> > <author> > <name>pro</name> > <uri>http://osar.ch/aslum-rights</uri> > <email>protection@osar.ch</email> > </author> > <summary type=3D"xhtml" > xml:base=3D"http://www.osar.ch/"> > <p><DEFANGED_div xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> > Der Nationalrat hat heute praktisch allen Versch=C3=A4rfungsvorschl=C3= =A4gen >des St=C3=A4nderates zum Asylgesetz zugestimmt. Der verfassungswidrige >Nothilfestopp blieb chancenlos. Die SFH ist sehr entt=C3=A4uscht =C3=BCb= er den >Ausgang der Beratung. Das neue Gesetz opfert den Schutz von Verfolgten >zugunsten von unverh=C3=A4ltnism=C3=A4ssiger Missbrauchsbek=C3=A4mpfung.= Damit ist das >Referendum unausweichlich. > </p><DEFANGED_div> > </summary> ></entry> > ><entry xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" xml:lang=3D"fr"> > <generator uri=3D"http://www.example.com/" version=3D"1.0"> > Example Toolkit > </generator> > <title>Revision de la loi sur l'asile - Inacceptable sur le plan >humain > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/050927_asylgnr_presserohstoff_"/= > > http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision > 2005-09-27T11:00-01:00 > 2005-09-27T11:00-01:00 > > pro > http://osar.ch/aslum-rights > protection@osar.ch > > xml:base=3D"http://www.osar.ch/"> >

> Le Conseil national a approuv=C3=A9 aujourd=E2=80=99hui pratiquement= toutes les >aggravations propos=C3=A9es par le Conseil F=C3=A9d=C3=A9ral dans le cad= re de la >r=C3=A9vision de la loi sur l=E2=80=99asile. L=E2=80=99exclusion de l=E2= =80=99aide de premi=C3=A8re >n=C3=A9cessit=C3=A9, contraire =C3=A0 la Constitution, a =C3=A9t=C3=A9 r= ejet=C3=A9e. L=E2=80=99OSAR se montre >profond=C3=A9ment d=C3=A9=C3=A7ue par l=E2=80=99issue des d=C3=A9bats. L= a nouvelle loi sacrifie la >protection des personnes pers=C3=A9cut=C3=A9es sur l=E2=80=99autel d=E2=80= =99un combat >disproportionn=C3=A9 contre les abus. Le r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rendum appara=C3=AE= t d=C3=A8s lors >in=C3=A9vitable. >

> > > >One hour later an important error in the french version gets fixed >(s/Conseil F=C3=A9d=C3=A9ral/Conseil des Etats/) > > > > Example Toolkit > > Revision de la loi sur l'asile - Inacceptable sur le plan >humain > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/050927_asylgnr_presserohstoff_"/= > > http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision > 2005-09-27T12:00-01:00 > 2005-09-27T11:00-01:00 > > pro > http://osar.ch/aslum-rights > protection@osar.ch > > xml:base=3D"http://www.osar.ch/"> >

> Le Conseil national a approuv=C3=A9 aujourd=E2=80=99hui pratiquement= toutes les >aggravations propos=C3=A9es par le Conseil des Etats dans le cadre de la >r=C3=A9vision de la loi sur l=E2=80=99asile. L=E2=80=99exclusion de l=E2= =80=99aide de premi=C3=A8re >n=C3=A9cessit=C3=A9, contraire =C3=A0 la Constitution, a =C3=A9t=C3=A9 r= ejet=C3=A9e. L=E2=80=99OSAR se montre >profond=C3=A9ment d=C3=A9=C3=A7ue par l=E2=80=99issue des d=C3=A9bats. L= a nouvelle loi sacrifie la >protection des personnes pers=C3=A9cut=C3=A9es sur l=E2=80=99autel d=E2=80= =99un combat >disproportionn=C3=A9 contre les abus. Le r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rendum appara=C3=AE= t d=C3=A8s lors >in=C3=A9vitable. >

> > > >One day later the entry becomes some major changes, and is published >again (in the feed), the new version is currently only available in >german > > > > Example Toolkit > > Asylgesetzrevision - Aus humanit=C3=A4rer Sicht fragw=C3=BCrdig<= /title> > <link DEFANGED_rel=3D"self" type=3D"text/html" DEFANGED_hreflang=3D"de" > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > <link DEFANGED_rel=3D"self" DEFANGED_type=3D"application/rdf+n3" DEFANG= ED_hreflang=3D"de" > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > <link DEFANGED_rel=3D"self" type=3D"text/html" DEFANGED_hreflang=3D"fr" > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > <link DEFANGED_rel=3D"self" DEFANGED_type=3D"application/rdf+n3" DEFANG= ED_hreflang=3D"fr" > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision"/> > <link DEFANGED_rel=3D"enclosure" DEFANGED_length=3D"92678" title=3D"Pre= sserohstoff" > href=3D"http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/050927_asylgnr_presserohstoff_"/= > > <id>http://www.osar.ch/2005/09/27/pm_asylg-revision</id> > <updated>2005-09-28T11:00-01:00</updated> > <published>2005-09-27T11:00-01:00</published> > <author> > <name>pro</name> > <uri>http://osar.ch/aslum-rights</uri> > <email>protection@osar.ch</email> > </author> > <summary type=3D"xhtml" > xml:base=3D"http://www.osar.ch/"> > <p><DEFANGED_div xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> > Der Nationalrat hat heute praktisch allen Versch=C3=A4rfungsvorschl=C3= =A4gen >des St=C3=A4nderates zum Asylgesetz zugestimmt. Der verfassungswidrige >Nothilfestopp blieb chancenlos. Die SFH ist sehr entt=C3=A4uscht =C3=BCb= er den >Ausgang der Beratung. Das neue Gesetz opfert den Schutz von Verfolgten >zugunsten von unverh=C3=A4ltnism=C3=A4ssiger Missbrauchsbek=C3=A4mpfung.= =20 > </p><DEFANGED_div> > </summary> ></entry> > > > > > >reto > > > > >1. http://wymiwyg.org/knobot >2. http://www.osar.ch/ > > > > > =20 > --=20 --------------------------------------------------------------- Zhang Yining URL: http://www.zhangyining.net | http://www.yining.org mailto: yining@zhangyining.net | yining@ectoplasm.org Fingerprint: 25C8 47AE 30D5 4C0D A4BB 8CF2 3C2D 585F A905 F033 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 04 20:03:36 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMwky-0007us-45 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Oct 2005 20:03:36 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA17162 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 20:03:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j94NvvUN055257; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 16:57:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j94NvvCs055256; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 16:57:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j94Nvua0055245 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 16:57:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (unknown [63.96.165.105]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 405073CA49 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 19:57:53 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: <20051003202743.GB9049@maribor.izzy.net> References: <20051003202743.GB9049@maribor.izzy.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <7E3D7FDE-8B75-4ED4-9A7F-8793ABF1726B@mnot.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> Subject: Re: Next and Previous Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 16:57:51 -0700 To: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alan, Probably the closest thing to what you want is this proposal: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nottingham-atompub-feed- history-04.txt It has "previous", but not "next". Cheers, On 03/10/2005, at 1:27 PM, Alan Gutierrez wrote: > > What is the proper way to indicate the next chunk of articles in > the feed? Is it link[@related] and if so what value for related? > > Where would someone put the offset? > > If this is not a good place for general Atom questions, please > tell me which forum is more appropriate. > > Thank you. > > -- > Alan Gutierrez - alan@engrm.com - http://engrm.com/blogometer/ > > > > -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 04 22:14:41 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMynp-0003Ha-Jw for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Oct 2005 22:14:41 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA21884 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 22:14:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9527HjH068187; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 19:07:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9527HgQ068186; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 19:07:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav20.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.92]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9527GOq068180 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 19:07:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 19:07:16 -0700 Message-ID: <BAY106-DAV2020117498811024F60B20BE820@phx.gbl> Received: from 81.179.113.210 by BAY106-DAV20.phx.gbl with DAV; Wed, 05 Oct 2005 02:07:16 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.113.210] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" <j4_james@hotmail.com> To: "Atom Syntax" <atom-syntax@imc.org> References: <20051003202743.GB9049@maribor.izzy.net> <7E3D7FDE-8B75-4ED4-9A7F-8793ABF1726B@mnot.net> Subject: Re: Next and Previous Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 03:07:15 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Oct 2005 02:07:16.0931 (UTC) FILETIME=[82867130:01C5C951] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Nottingham wrote: > Probably the closest thing to what you want is this proposal: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nottingham-atompub-feed- > history-04.txt > > It has "previous", but not "next". It just occurred to me when reading this message that there may be some advantages to having a "next" link to go along with the "prev". I realise you don't need it in order to reconstruct a feed's history, but it does provide you with a certain amount of validation. For example, it's possible that someone could create an empty feed with nothing but their own title, author and copyright messages and a "fh:prev" link to someone else's feed in order to claim credit for a publication that wasn't their own. If an aggregator could rely on the existence of a "next" link it would be able to check for issues like that. Of course, requiring all archived documents to have a "next" would cause problems when a new archive was created and the previously top archive would have to update it's "next" link to point to the latest archive document rather than the active feed document. So maybe not such a great idea. An alternative might be to make sure that feed-level titles, links and authors were an exact match across all documents in the history. Or maybe some kind of self link or root link that always pointed to the root document. I don't know. Maybe there isn't a perfect solution. But isn't it at least worth mentioning something about this under "Security Considerations"? Also, a minor point I noticed while reading the draft: the namespace prefix you use in most of the document is "fh" while the one in all the examples is "history". Technically still valid, but I figure you'd probably want them all to be the same. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Oct 05 01:55:03 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EN2F5-0005CL-Qh for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Oct 2005 01:55:03 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA00715 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 01:55:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j955jCYE088040; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 22:45:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j955jC0Q088039; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 22:45:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j955jBQL088032 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 22:45:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F3273D38A; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 01:45:10 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <BAY106-DAV2020117498811024F60B20BE820@phx.gbl> References: <20051003202743.GB9049@maribor.izzy.net> <7E3D7FDE-8B75-4ED4-9A7F-8793ABF1726B@mnot.net> <BAY106-DAV2020117498811024F60B20BE820@phx.gbl> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <A4605608-51B3-456A-9EED-72F93C037784@mnot.net> Cc: "Atom Syntax" <atom-syntax@imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> Subject: Re: Next and Previous Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 22:45:04 -0700 To: James Holderness <j4_james@hotmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 04/10/2005, at 7:07 PM, James Holderness wrote: > But isn't it at least worth mentioning something about this under > "Security Considerations"? Good point; I'll try to come up with some text. > Also, a minor point I noticed while reading the draft: the > namespace prefix you use in most of the document is "fh" while the > one in all the examples is "history". Technically still valid, but > I figure you'd probably want them all to be the same. I did that on purpose :) Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Oct 05 03:21:02 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EN3aH-0003Kd-TM for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Oct 2005 03:21:02 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA02883 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 03:20:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j957CreL095855; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 00:12:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j957Crf6095854; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 00:12:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf01.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.68]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j957CqKR095816 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 00:12:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from monmail.cegetel.net (217-19-192-112.dti.cegetel.net [217.19.192.112]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 59F5459812D; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:12:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 194.250.147.107 (SquirrelMail authenticated user t.broyer@cegetel.net) by monmail.cegetel.net with HTTP; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:12:46 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <2956.194.250.147.107.1128496366.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> In-Reply-To: <BAY106-DAV2020117498811024F60B20BE820@phx.gbl> References: <20051003202743.GB9049@maribor.izzy.net> <7E3D7FDE-8B75-4ED4-9A7F-8793ABF1726B@mnot.net> <BAY106-DAV2020117498811024F60B20BE820@phx.gbl> Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:12:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Next and Previous From: "Thomas Broyer" <t.broyer@cegetel.net> To: "James Holderness" <j4_james@hotmail.com> Cc: "Atom Syntax" <atom-syntax@imc.org> User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit James Holderness wrote: > > Mark Nottingham wrote: >> Probably the closest thing to what you want is this proposal: >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nottingham-atompub-feed- >> history-04.txt >> >> It has "previous", but not "next". > > It just occurred to me when reading this message that there may be some > advantages to having a "next" link to go along with the "prev". I realise > you don't need it in order to reconstruct a feed's history, but it does > provide you with a certain amount of validation. For example, it's > possible that someone could create an empty feed with nothing but their > own title, author and copyright messages and a "fh:prev" link to someone > else's feed in order to claim credit for a publication that wasn't their > own. If an aggregator could rely on the existence of a "next" link it > would be able to check for issues like that. Compare their atom:link[@rel="self" and @type="application/atom+xml"]/@href, they'll point you to the "start" of the "list", the one whose author and copyright apply. (Actually, author and copyright should really appear in "history feed documents" as well, aggregators shouldn't "apply copyright" from one document to other documents linked from it). If the "borrower" uses an atom:link[@rel="self"]/@href different from the one found in history documents, aggregators should issue a warning. They could also dereference the @href and see if they are redirected to the final same URI. If the "borrower" uses the same atom:link[@rel="self"]/@href as the one found in history documents, aggregators should subscribe to that URI and not the "borrower"'s one, so the "borrower" can't claim anything. I think atom:link[@rel="self"] is sufficient, there's no need for a "next". -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Oct 05 03:49:57 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EN42G-0004uv-R4 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Oct 2005 03:49:57 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA04145 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 03:49:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j957ho4Z098797; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 00:43:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j957hoeQ098796; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 00:43:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav18.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.89] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j957ho5d098789 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 00:43:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 00:43:49 -0700 Message-ID: <BAY106-DAV171C5E8DE96BEC651C52ECBE820@phx.gbl> Received: from 81.179.113.210 by BAY106-DAV17.phx.gbl with DAV; Wed, 05 Oct 2005 07:43:49 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.113.210] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" <j4_james@hotmail.com> To: "Atom Syntax" <atom-syntax@imc.org> Cc: "Thomas Broyer" <t.broyer@cegetel.net> References: <20051003202743.GB9049@maribor.izzy.net> <7E3D7FDE-8B75-4ED4-9A7F-8793ABF1726B@mnot.net> <BAY106-DAV2020117498811024F60B20BE820@phx.gbl> <2956.194.250.147.107.1128496366.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> Subject: Re: Next and Previous Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 08:43:49 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Oct 2005 07:43:49.0904 (UTC) FILETIME=[86799900:01C5C980] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas Broyer wrote: > Compare their atom:link[@rel="self" and > @type="application/atom+xml"]/@href, they'll point you to the "start" of > the "list", the one whose author and copyright apply. On the whole I tend to agree, but since there isn't a "self" link in either of the RSS formats and Mark would like this extension to be format neutral, he would either have to introduce an equivalent element into the spec or strongly suggest that RSS feeds include a "self" atom:link. Technically it isn't even required that all Atom feeds have such a link, so either way it's something worth clarifying. > (Actually, author > and copyright should really appear in "history feed documents" as well, > aggregators shouldn't "apply copyright" from one document to other > documents linked from it). Technically yes, but try and imagine how an aggregator might handle that sort of thing. The feed may be made up of a collection of documents, but from the user's point of view it's all just one big feed. A copyright message is the sort of thing that would show up once in a properties dialog for the feed, or somewhere in the header or footer in a "newspaper" view. It's highly unlikely an aggregator would try and track multiple copyright messages and display them on a per item basis. As for author, if you've got item-level author elements you should be ok, but if there aren't, the aggregator is quite likely to take the last feed-level author it received and apply it to all subsequent items. It can be argued that that's a bug, but it's not unreasonable to imagine than many aggregators might do such a thing unless explicitly told not to. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Oct 05 04:38:34 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EN4nJ-0003yR-Np for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Oct 2005 04:38:33 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA06484 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 04:38:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j958Tx0q004745; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 01:30:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j958TxNv004744; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 01:29:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf00.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.67]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j958Twvn004726 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 01:29:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from monmail.cegetel.net (217-19-192-111.dti.cegetel.net [217.19.192.111]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with SMTP id F21351A4315; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 10:29:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 194.250.147.107 (SquirrelMail authenticated user t.broyer@cegetel.net) by monmail.cegetel.net with HTTP; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 10:29:53 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <3138.194.250.147.107.1128500993.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> In-Reply-To: <BAY106-DAV171C5E8DE96BEC651C52ECBE820@phx.gbl> References: <20051003202743.GB9049@maribor.izzy.net> <7E3D7FDE-8B75-4ED4-9A7F-8793ABF1726B@mnot.net> <BAY106-DAV2020117498811024F60B20BE820@phx.gbl> <2956.194.250.147.107.1128496366.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> <BAY106-DAV171C5E8DE96BEC651C52ECBE820@phx.gbl> Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 10:29:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Next and Previous From: "Thomas Broyer" <t.broyer@cegetel.net> To: "James Holderness" <j4_james@hotmail.com> Cc: "Atom Syntax" <atom-syntax@imc.org> User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit James Holderness wrote: > Thomas Broyer wrote: >> Compare their atom:link[@rel="self" and >> @type="application/atom+xml"]/@href, they'll point you to the "start" of >> the "list", the one whose author and copyright apply. > > On the whole I tend to agree, but since there isn't a "self" link in > either of the RSS formats and Mark would like this extension to be format > neutral, he would either have to introduce an equivalent element into the > spec or strongly suggest that RSS feeds include a "self" atom:link. Maybe one more reason to use an atom:link instead of fh:prev... > Technically it isn't even required that all Atom feeds have such a link, > so either way it's something worth clarifying. Agreed. >> (Actually, author >> and copyright should really appear in "history feed documents" as well, >> aggregators shouldn't "apply copyright" from one document to other >> documents linked from it). > > Technically yes, but try and imagine how an aggregator might handle that > sort of thing. The feed may be made up of a collection of documents, but > from the user's point of view it's all just one big feed. A copyright > message is the sort of thing that would show up once in a properties > dialog for the feed, or somewhere in the header or footer in a "newspaper" > view. Hmm, right. > It's highly unlikely an aggregator would try and track multiple copyright > messages and display them on a per item basis. atom:rights at feed-level don't apply to its entries, just to the feed as it stands. If you want to grant/restrict rights at an entry-level, use the entry-level atom:rights. I can understand how an entry-level atom:rights could be presented to the end-user, but I can't imagine how it could be done for the feed-level atom:rights, given that it can change during the feed's "life". The only solution I can see is to store feed metadata on an atom:source inside each entry, so you can ask for the entry-level and feed-level atom:rights for each entry in your aggregator. > As for author, if you've got item-level author elements you should be ok, > but if there aren't, the aggregator is quite likely to take the last > feed-level author it received and apply it to all subsequent items. It can > be argued that that's a bug, but it's not unreasonable to imagine than > many aggregators might do such a thing unless explicitly told not to. Aggregators are more likely to copy/paste de feed-level authors into each entry and totally forget about feed-level ones. -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Oct 05 05:10:29 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EN5IC-0008PD-Un for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Oct 2005 05:10:29 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA08202 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 05:10:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9592h1A008654; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 02:02:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9592hLm008653; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 02:02:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from adslmx1.deep.ch (adslmx1.deep.ch [217.71.240.139]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9592gH4008632 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 02:02:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reto@gmuer.ch) Received: from localhost.localdomain (gonza.gmuer.ch [217.71.243.104]) by adslmx1.deep.ch (8.12.11/8.12.11/deep) with ESMTP id j9592UJB003456; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 11:02:30 +0200 Subject: Re: Entries in multiple language From: Reto =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bachmann-Gm=FCr?= <reto@gmuer.ch> To: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net> Cc: Syntax Atom <atom-syntax@imc.org>, Wyman Bob <bobwyman@pubsub.com> In-Reply-To: <D42C5F31-61ED-43D5-9FF1-67830A8EF4B8@bblfish.net> References: <1127911691.9028.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <D42C5F31-61ED-43D5-9FF1-67830A8EF4B8@bblfish.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 11:02:29 +0200 Message-Id: <1128502949.8807.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.1.1 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id FAA08202 Am Dienstag, den 04.10.2005, 14:28 +0200 schrieb Henry Story:=20 >=20 > On 28 Sep 2005, at 14:48, Reto Bachmann-Gm=C3=BCr wrote: > > > > [snip lots of interesting stuff, to get to later] >=20 > > Note that the first two entries share the same value of atom:updated, > > this is a SHOULD-Level violation of section 4.1.1. I think the spec > > should allow multiple entries with the same timestamp iff they =20 > > differ by > > language and/or content-type. In multilingual countries like =20 > > Switzerland > > it is required (as for laws) or at least a matter of political > > correctness (as for press releases) for some publications to be > > published at the same time in all language versions. >=20 > Why not publish content negotiated atom feeds, so that the French =20 > version > of the feed only contains french entries, the German version only Germa= n > entries, the Italian one only Italian ones, and the Romansh one only =20 > Romansh > entries? Then the user would subscribe to the feed serving the =20 > entries in > the language preferred by the author. >=20 > Of course since in Switzerland the German, French and Italian =20 > representations > of the feed have to appear simultaneously they will each contain =20 > entries with > identical ids and identical atom:updated time stamps. This would not =20 > contradict > the atom spec which mentions only that in a particular feed document tw= o > entries with the same id should not have the same updated time stamp. =20 > It is > something on the other hand that an ontology of atom would have to be =20 > careful > about (or a database consuming atom feeds), as it would have to take =20 > into > account the possibility of multiple language versions of the same =20 > update of > an entry. This would be a solution not to violate the spec in this point. Still I don't get the intention of the requirement of having different timestamp for entries with different language or content-type. Thanks to http-content negotiation abilities delivering only the version of an entry that best matches the client request is possible and makes generally sense - but as long as I don't understand the rationale in the spec it still feels a bit like a hack.=20 Also, the HTTP-Accept Header sent by the client when requesting the feed describes the preferred format of the feed itself and not necessarily of its entries. So it may be wrong to conclude a preference on the version of the entries from a header like: "Accept: text/xml, */*; q=3D0.1". reto From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Oct 05 05:30:53 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EN5bx-0007gy-6r for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Oct 2005 05:30:53 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA09266 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 05:30:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9599hUM009123; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 02:09:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9599hnu009122; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 02:09:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from adslmx1.deep.ch (adslmx1.deep.ch [217.71.240.139]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9599gwf009110 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 02:09:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reto@gmuer.ch) Received: from localhost.localdomain (gonza.gmuer.ch [217.71.243.104]) by adslmx1.deep.ch (8.12.11/8.12.11/deep) with ESMTP id j9599SIA004387; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 11:09:28 +0200 Subject: Re: Entries in multiple language From: Reto =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bachmann-Gm=FCr?= <reto@gmuer.ch> To: Zhang Yining <yining@ectoplasm.org> Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <43430B73.5060104@ectoplasm.org> References: <1127911691.9028.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43430B73.5060104@ectoplasm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 11:09:27 +0200 Message-Id: <1128503367.8807.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.1.1 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id FAA09266 Am Mittwoch, den 05.10.2005, 07:08 +0800 schrieb Zhang Yining: > Reto Bachmann-Gm=C3=BCr wrote: >=20 > >I'm trying to implement Atom support for KnoBot [1], the KnoBot CMS > >supports entries and feeds in multiple language with http-language > >negotiation. > > > >Reading the spec I'm not sure how an entry should be described in > >multiple language, more specifically how updates of a multilingual ent= ry > >should be communicated. > > > >The examples below are based on a real press release published by my > >employer the Swiss Refugee Council [2], the URLs are real and refer to > >the multilingual press release. For the purpose of the example however= , > >I made fictional changes to the content. > > > >My questions are: > >- Is this the atom-way of dealing with different language versions? > > =20 > > > Is it possible that different languages have different ID's? Why not? But the aggregating agent should know how to find out that the items are equivalent and present only one version to the user. I guess the spec should tell implementors how to handle this. reto From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 06 16:49:03 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ENcfn-00058B-F8 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Oct 2005 16:49:03 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA15207 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 16:49:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j96KchG6021976; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 13:38:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j96KchSi021975; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 13:38:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j96Kcgaw021968 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 13:38:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (unknown [63.96.164.186]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4566D3D3A1; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 16:38:37 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <BAY106-DAV9BB6069AA9BDCADB23B4EBE8C0@phx.gbl> References: <43381471.5050408@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV15AC22438F4364481BBABBBE8C0@phx.gbl> <433C342B.4000007@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV52BF2303A531524D4E80CBE8C0@phx.gbl> <433C52A0.8030702@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV2558EFD1A5D51FB470414BE8C0@phx.gbl> <BAY106-DAV9BB6069AA9BDCADB23B4EBE8C0@phx.gbl> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <5131391D-DCAA-46E1-99A1-E177D5E53382@mnot.net> Cc: "Atom Syntax" <atom-syntax@imc.org>, "James M Snell" <jasnell@gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> Subject: Re: Unofficial last call on draft-snell-atompub-feed-expires-04.txt Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 13:38:36 -0700 To: James Holderness <j4_james@hotmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FWIW, the Media RSS extension cites http://web.resource.org/rss/1.0/ modules/dcterms/#valid] as a best practice. On 29/09/2005, at 4:45 PM, James Holderness wrote: > > Just a follow-up on the representation of Date Ranges in dublin > core. I was under the mistaken impression that you needed to use a > DCMI Period encoding to represent a date range, but apparently ISO > 8601 time intervals are perfectly valid. In order to clarify the > situation, the DC Date Working Group has recently recommended the > following replacement for the comment associated with the date > element: > > "Typically, Date will be associated with the creation or > availability of the resource. A date value may be a single date or > a date range. Date values may express temporal information at any > level of granularity (including time). Recommended best practice > for encoding the date value is to supply an unambiguous > representation of the single date or date range using a widely- > recognized syntax (e.g., YYYY-MM-DD for a single date; YYYY-MM-DD/ > YYYY-MM-DD for a date range; YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM to specify a single > date and time down to the minute)." > > Full details of the recommendation can be found here: > http://dublincore.org/usage/meetings/2005/09/madrid/files/ > 2005-07-29.date-comment.txt > > Personally I think that makes the idea of using dublin core for > this extension a whole lot more palatable. > > > -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 07 12:52:42 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ENvSb-0003NJ-HD for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Oct 2005 12:52:42 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA29827 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 12:52:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j97GgpmS035550; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 09:42:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j97GgpjH035549; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 09:42:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j97GgpNO035540 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 09:42:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 68so317375wra for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 07 Oct 2005 09:42:46 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=hRXu30GZtsgnrfGtYDASNgrfwlKRtvPl04IyJz5PkuSyOQuPZZySepUpPk6rqtb1j6H5bLvpIYd4KN/Vh0mV1pzpHX7mNraFDyZnef7aRke93lHgauEBLFvDlZdQsr61zMi+mqNHWmAArwGmJOeFOs57jM2Y9av/UF513KL1Bn4= Received: by 10.54.135.18 with SMTP id i18mr2371620wrd; Fri, 07 Oct 2005 09:42:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id g9sm1506660wra.2005.10.07.09.42.42; Fri, 07 Oct 2005 09:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4346A57F.50005@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 09:42:39 -0700 From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> CC: James Holderness <j4_james@hotmail.com>, Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: Unofficial last call on draft-snell-atompub-feed-expires-04.txt References: <43381471.5050408@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV15AC22438F4364481BBABBBE8C0@phx.gbl> <433C342B.4000007@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV52BF2303A531524D4E80CBE8C0@phx.gbl> <433C52A0.8030702@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV2558EFD1A5D51FB470414BE8C0@phx.gbl> <BAY106-DAV9BB6069AA9BDCADB23B4EBE8C0@phx.gbl> <5131391D-DCAA-46E1-99A1-E177D5E53382@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <5131391D-DCAA-46E1-99A1-E177D5E53382@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Let me stew on this a bit more. Generally speaking, I think the dcterms are too loosely defined, but let me see if I can't get this to grow on me. Mark Nottingham wrote: > FWIW, the Media RSS extension cites http://web.resource.org/rss/1.0/ > modules/dcterms/#valid] as a best practice. > > > On 29/09/2005, at 4:45 PM, James Holderness wrote: > >> >> Just a follow-up on the representation of Date Ranges in dublin >> core. I was under the mistaken impression that you needed to use a >> DCMI Period encoding to represent a date range, but apparently ISO >> 8601 time intervals are perfectly valid. In order to clarify the >> situation, the DC Date Working Group has recently recommended the >> following replacement for the comment associated with the date element: >> >> "Typically, Date will be associated with the creation or >> availability of the resource. A date value may be a single date or a >> date range. Date values may express temporal information at any >> level of granularity (including time). Recommended best practice for >> encoding the date value is to supply an unambiguous representation >> of the single date or date range using a widely- recognized syntax >> (e.g., YYYY-MM-DD for a single date; YYYY-MM-DD/ YYYY-MM-DD for a >> date range; YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM to specify a single date and time down >> to the minute)." >> >> Full details of the recommendation can be found here: >> http://dublincore.org/usage/meetings/2005/09/madrid/files/ >> 2005-07-29.date-comment.txt >> >> Personally I think that makes the idea of using dublin core for this >> extension a whole lot more palatable. >> >> >> > > > -- > Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 07 13:30:26 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ENw38-0005rF-0B for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Oct 2005 13:30:26 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA01709 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 13:30:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j97HJsga039201; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 10:19:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j97HJs7P039200; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 10:19:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mX1.myOutlookonline.com (mx1.MyOutlookOnline.com [69.25.74.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j97HJs7r039188 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 10:19:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from byrne@sixapart.com) Received: from be022.mail.lan ([10.109.209.122]) by mX1.myOutlookonline.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 7 Oct 2005 13:19:48 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5CB63.5207B2D7" Subject: Question about category@scheme Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 13:20:49 -0400 Message-ID: <E77DF28A12028844BECD228870BEDA3E2808A3@be022.mail.lan> Thread-Topic: Question about category@scheme Thread-Index: AcXLY3YhR9qz1gCYTde39e3lLTITiQ== From: "Byrne Reese" <byrne@sixapart.com> To: <atom-syntax@imc.org> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Oct 2005 17:19:48.0972 (UTC) FILETIME=[521C62C0:01C5CB63] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5CB63.5207B2D7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Are there any good examples of how the category@scheme attribute is used? =20 4.2.2.2 The "scheme" Attribute =20 The "scheme" attribute is an IRI that identifies a categorization scheme. Category elements MAY have a "scheme" attribute. =20 Is it just me, or is that kind of vague? =20 Or to ask a more leading question, can the scheme element be used to differentiate between a "category" and a "tag?" And if so, how? =20 Byrne Reese Manager, Platform Technology http://www.sixapart.com/pronet/ =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5CB63.5207B2D7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:st1=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)"> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"PersonName"/> <!--[if !mso]> <style> st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--> <style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Trebuchet MS"; panose-1:2 11 6 3 2 2 2 2 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} p.MsoAutoSig, li.MsoAutoSig, div.MsoAutoSig {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} pre {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New";} span.EmailStyle17 {mso-style-type:personal-compose; font-family:Arial; color:windowtext;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> </head> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple> <div class=3DSection1> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>Are there any good examples of how the = category@scheme attribute is used?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <pre><a name=3Dsection-4.2.2.2><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>4.2.2.2</span></font></a>  The = "scheme" Attribute<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon= t size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>   The "scheme" attribute = is an IRI that identifies a = categorization<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>   scheme.  Category elements = MAY have a "scheme" attribute.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>Is it just me, or is that kind of = vague?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>Or to ask a more leading question, can the scheme = element be used to differentiate between a “category” and a = “tag?” And if so, how?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D2 = face=3D"Trebuchet MS"><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS"'>Byrne = Reese</span></font></st1:PersonName><font size=3D2 face=3D"Trebuchet MS"><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet = MS"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 face=3D"Trebuchet MS"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS"'>Manager, Platform = Technology</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 face=3D"Trebuchet MS"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet = MS"'>http://www.sixapart.com/pronet/<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> </body> </html> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5CB63.5207B2D7-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 07 13:54:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ENwQ5-00048p-Cr for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Oct 2005 13:54:09 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA02734 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 13:54:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j97HjD9V041148; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 10:45:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j97HjDli041147; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 10:45:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from xproxy.gmail.com (xproxy.gmail.com [66.249.82.203]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j97HjCZ6041136 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 10:45:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i29so611583wxd for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 07 Oct 2005 10:45:07 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=hLWcuMnKoOCDPX670i5evJ+DW7nTOcEqWecuS+PdmXEpZSJhknfBalSXQbGFFD6hRg08mndUNt5zp91IDoUdgbOgRlmT1AVG+j3CPqxafcPUal7+2A9CkWTe5QDQpc4wIfpBuLhT59NMllxPuwgg4mfiKXy0EVwvNNk/mV0hnLk= Received: by 10.70.113.1 with SMTP id l1mr2369748wxc; Fri, 07 Oct 2005 10:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id i37sm2613124wxd.2005.10.07.10.45.00; Fri, 07 Oct 2005 10:45:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4346B416.1070602@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 10:44:54 -0700 From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Byrne Reese <byrne@sixapart.com> CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Question about category@scheme References: <E77DF28A12028844BECD228870BEDA3E2808A3@be022.mail.lan> In-Reply-To: <E77DF28A12028844BECD228870BEDA3E2808A3@be022.mail.lan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id NAA02734 I don't believe we really have any good best practices for this yet. My snellspace.com blog uses <category=20 scheme=3D"http://www.snellspace.com/wp" term=3D"Atom 1.0" /> to indicate = my=20 site specific categories To indicate a tag, one could imagine doing something like: <category scheme=3D"http://technorati.com/tag/" term=3D"Atom 1.0" /> And include a corresponding link element: <link rel=3D"related" href=3D"http://technorati.com/tag/Atom+1.0" /> - James Byrne Reese wrote: > Are there any good examples of how the category@scheme attribute is use= d? > >4.2.2.2 The "scheme" Attribute > >=20 > > The "scheme" attribute is an IRI that identifies a categorization > > scheme. Category elements MAY have a "scheme" attribute. > > Is it just me, or is that kind of vague? > > Or to ask a more leading question, can the scheme element be used to=20 > differentiate between a =93category=94 and a =93tag?=94 And if so, how? > > Byrne Reese > > Manager, Platform Technology > > http://www.sixapart.com/pronet/ > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 07 14:03:39 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ENwZH-0005tw-Fx for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Oct 2005 14:03:39 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA03263 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 14:03:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j97HslRd041994; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 10:54:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j97Hslhd041993; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 10:54:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j97Hsk9C041986 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 10:54:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from fe-amer-10.sun.com ([192.18.108.184]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j97HsjvD022014 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 11:54:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.11 (built Jan 28 2005)) id <0IO000C014ENAZ00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 07 Oct 2005 11:54:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.102.100] ([154.20.140.182]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.11 (built Jan 28 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0IO000LDF4F99SG8@mail-amer.sun.com>; Fri, 07 Oct 2005 11:54:45 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 10:55:04 -0700 From: Tim Bray <Tim.Bray@Sun.COM> Subject: Re: Question about category@scheme In-reply-to: <E77DF28A12028844BECD228870BEDA3E2808A3@be022.mail.lan> To: Byrne Reese <byrne@sixapart.com> Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Message-id: <AA22C022-17AB-4A13-8DCE-FAA4D1A8C6F7@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <E77DF28A12028844BECD228870BEDA3E2808A3@be022.mail.lan> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Oct 7, 2005, at 10:20 AM, Byrne Reese wrote: > Are there any good examples of how the category@scheme attribute is > used? Over at 'ongoing', I have my own set of categories, so my category elements look like <category scheme='http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/What/' term='Business' /> Remember, it's optional, both for the producer and for the consumer (Technorati, for example, ignores the scheme); but for well-defined taxonomies like Dewey Decimal or whatever, I think it would be a good idea to put a URI there to disambiguate them. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 07 14:23:59 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ENwsx-0004ew-1V for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Oct 2005 14:23:59 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA04215 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 14:23:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j97IFkU3044024; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 11:15:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j97IFkWQ044023; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 11:15:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j97IFi1M044009 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 11:15:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 07 Oct 2005 18:15:38 -0000 Received: from xdsl-81-173-168-145.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [81.173.168.145] by mail.gmx.net (mp014) with SMTP; 07 Oct 2005 20:15:38 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 20:15:39 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Question about category@scheme Message-ID: <20051007181539.GA26813@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <E77DF28A12028844BECD228870BEDA3E2808A3@be022.mail.lan> <AA22C022-17AB-4A13-8DCE-FAA4D1A8C6F7@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <AA22C022-17AB-4A13-8DCE-FAA4D1A8C6F7@sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id OAA04215 * Tim Bray <Tim.Bray@Sun.COM> [2005-10-07 20:00]: > Over at 'ongoing', I have my own set of categories, so my > category elements look like >=20 > <category scheme=3D'http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/What/' term=3D'Busines= s' /> Conversely, I generate an Atom feed from my del.icio.us links, and my category elements look like <category scheme=3D"http://del.icio.us/ap/" term=3D"advice" /> So tags vs categories, it doesn=E2=80=99t matter, not to Atom. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/> From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 07 14:25:38 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ENwuY-0004mA-Mw for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Oct 2005 14:25:38 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA04304 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 14:25:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j97IHcKJ044168; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 11:17:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j97IHcb5044167; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 11:17:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j97IHaR4044144 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 11:17:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 07 Oct 2005 18:17:30 -0000 Received: from xdsl-81-173-168-145.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [81.173.168.145] by mail.gmx.net (mp003) with SMTP; 07 Oct 2005 20:17:30 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 20:17:32 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Question about category@scheme Message-ID: <20051007181732.GB26813@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <E77DF28A12028844BECD228870BEDA3E2808A3@be022.mail.lan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <E77DF28A12028844BECD228870BEDA3E2808A3@be022.mail.lan> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id OAA04304 * Byrne Reese <byrne@sixapart.com> [2005-10-07 19:30]: > Or to ask a more leading question, can the scheme element be used to > differentiate between a "category" and a "tag?" And if so, how? By using different IRIs for either. Or if your question is =E2=80=9CI don=E2=80=99t want to use a hierarchica= l filing system with mutually exclusive choices,=E2=80=9D then the answer is, =E2=80=9CAtom doesn=E2=80=99t make you, =E2=80=98category=E2=80=99 is to = be understood broadly as any kind of organisational scheme.=E2=80=9D Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/> From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 07 16:37:13 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ENyxt-0001Uf-Q9 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Oct 2005 16:37:13 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA23070 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 16:37:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j97KRxBk056848; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 13:27:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j97KRxJF056847; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 13:27:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.195]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j97KRwjv056841 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 13:27:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 68so339720wra for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 07 Oct 2005 13:27:53 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=saKts6I7GUeNZfEXGu8uYOh/kJj6lx7j0FhMR7hbiPGZIFc7DZeS6/2uxmNSevSwuK0jcK0ICT3Sh3FwdoI5fOl9JvsxA6AO4vOqX36S6iEa7d3IITucof0kbIvZ7Q+VdZjlE+3ObXwJEUOSI1Pj92X5gFgnj61gtME8+I+WcII= Received: by 10.54.94.16 with SMTP id r16mr2565111wrb; Fri, 07 Oct 2005 13:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id d16sm2021253wra.2005.10.07.13.27.51; Fri, 07 Oct 2005 13:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4346DA44.5050002@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 13:27:48 -0700 From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: FYI: Advertising Web services with Atom 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI... Example of an interesting non-blog use of Atom syndication: http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/webservices/library/ws-atomwas/ - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 07 19:48:59 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EO1xT-0002Sp-AS for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Oct 2005 19:48:59 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA03650 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 19:48:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j97NfJ5T075669; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 16:41:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j97NfJxa075668; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 16:41:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.196]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j97NfIkE075660 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 16:41:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id d9so764257qbd for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 07 Oct 2005 16:41:13 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=tOjqXLLMaUz3UOJbf3/vNMty0E9gQ0jV98FfY7nchcoqVncvL5tmz+9D1KpKoVhF8pHUZu0IfrT4DEsponasXsp7RCMoU8FwcZoC/3BLZR0YZUTQiMb3UkoLJIU63POyeEd3R5NU+R0TKG8aRfQq3RoO4bsyfWkkC6zUnd+4SKM= Received: by 10.65.139.4 with SMTP id r4mr1773388qbn; Fri, 07 Oct 2005 16:41:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id q13sm48507qbq.2005.10.07.16.41.12; Fri, 07 Oct 2005 16:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43470794.5010007@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 16:41:08 -0700 From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: FYI: Google Reader and Atom 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI: Thanks to Robert Sayre for pointing it out, but when y'all get a chance, take a look at the internals of the new Google Reader app (http://reader.google.com). It's using AJAX and Atom 1.0 feeds to serve up the data into the browser interface. The interface itself leaves a lot to be desired, but the model they're using is significant. Well worth a look. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 07 22:03:57 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EO444-0001K7-UV for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Oct 2005 22:03:57 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA10977 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 22:03:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j981sf0W084456; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 18:54:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j981sfIH084455; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 18:54:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp5k.poczta.onet.pl (smtp5k.poczta.onet.pl [213.180.130.50]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j981seEU084442 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 18:54:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aslom@onet.pl) Received: from 12-202-161-198.client.insightBB.com ([12.202.161.198]:22172 "EHLO [192.168.1.100]") by kps5.test.onet.pl with ESMTP id <S4883008AbVJHByX>; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 03:54:23 +0200 Message-ID: <434726A4.6000801@onet.pl> Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 20:53:40 -0500 From: Aleksander Slominski <aslom@onet.pl> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.5 (Windows/20050711) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> CC: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: FYI: Advertising Web services with Atom 1.0 References: <4346DA44.5050002@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4346DA44.5050002@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James M Snell wrote: > > FYI... > > Example of an interesting non-blog use of Atom syndication: > > http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/webservices/library/ws-atomwas/ it is interesting that atom reader (in this case it seems to SharpReader) is actually rendering text content of |<content type="application/xml"> <EndpointReference xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2005/08/addressing"> <Address>http://localhost:9085/wsatom/services/HelloWorld </Address> </EndpointReference> </content>| are atom readers supposed to do that? would it not be better to have a proper XHTML as content and store EndpointReference directly as a child inside atom:entry? after all EndpointReference is used by services and not Atom GUI apps? second comment is very difficult (or impossible) to know that feed is actually representing "WS introspection" - should there not be there a some (optional) element inside atom:feed to indicate that feed contains (only) list of EndpointReferences? best, alek| | -- --- Memorable Quote from Firefly (105. Out Of Gas) -Ship like this, be with you until you die -That's because it's a deathtrap From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 07 22:39:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EO4c7-0001og-SQ for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Oct 2005 22:39:08 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA12050 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 22:39:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j982TSvh086865; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 19:29:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j982TSHS086864; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 19:29:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j982TQNv086855 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 19:29:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 08 Oct 2005 02:29:20 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-247-30.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.247.30] by mail.gmx.net (mp006) with SMTP; 08 Oct 2005 04:29:20 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 04:29:22 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de> To: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: FYI: Advertising Web services with Atom 1.0 Message-ID: <20051008022922.GA22772@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> References: <4346DA44.5050002@gmail.com> <434726A4.6000801@onet.pl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <434726A4.6000801@onet.pl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id WAA12050 * Aleksander Slominski <aslom@onet.pl> [2005-10-08 04:00]: > it is interesting that atom reader (in this case it seems to=20 > SharpReader) is actually rendering text content of [=E2=80=A6] are atom > readers supposed to do that? They=E2=80=99re certainly free to. Atom does not dictate what you do with the bits once you have them, it just tells you what they mean. > would it not be better to have a proper XHTML as content and > store EndpointReference directly as a child inside atom:entry? > after all EndpointReference is used by services and not Atom > GUI apps? No. Atom is not a weblog aggregation format. It can be used in that capacity, and certainly is the finest choice for that, but that is only one possible use case, and applications using Atom should not be bent around it. Putting the EndpointReference in the content is the right thing to do. Intermediaries and generic Atom stores can trivially pass it around and/or extract it and delegate it to attached format-specific processors correctly. If you put it directly in atom:entry, it becomes a structured extension element, and then suddenly you have much higher requirements of your entire infrastructure chain in order to get the same things done. > second comment is very difficult (or impossible) to know that > feed is actually representing "WS introspection" The namespace of the entries=E2=80=99 contents would be a bit of hint, no? > should there not be there a some (optional) element inside > atom:feed to indicate that feed contains (only) list of > EndpointReferences? An extension that allows one to define something like that sounds like a useful thing to have. (James?) The right term for this would probably be =E2=80=9Crole=E2=80=9D. Or mayb= e =E2=80=9Cprofile=E2=80=9D, in the sense that it=E2=80=99s a constrained u= se of a more generic format. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/> From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 08 01:13:13 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EO71F-0004c9-8J for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Oct 2005 01:13:13 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA18088 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 01:13:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9853K8E003381; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 22:03:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9853KMf003380; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 22:03:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav19.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.91]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9853Kq6003374 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 22:03:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 22:03:20 -0700 Message-ID: <BAY106-DAV1941E133C1A06673C8333CBE870@phx.gbl> Received: from 81.179.113.210 by BAY106-DAV19.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 08 Oct 2005 05:03:20 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.113.210] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" <j4_james@hotmail.com> To: "Atom Syntax" <atom-syntax@imc.org> References: <20051003202743.GB9049@maribor.izzy.net> <7E3D7FDE-8B75-4ED4-9A7F-8793ABF1726B@mnot.net> <BAY106-DAV2020117498811024F60B20BE820@phx.gbl> <2956.194.250.147.107.1128496366.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> <BAY106-DAV171C5E8DE96BEC651C52ECBE820@phx.gbl> <3138.194.250.147.107.1128500993.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> Subject: Re: Next and Previous Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 06:03:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Oct 2005 05:03:20.0460 (UTC) FILETIME=[9A1E4CC0:01C5CBC5] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas Broyer wrote: > atom:rights at feed-level don't apply to its entries, just to the feed as > it stands. If you want to grant/restrict rights at an entry-level, use the > entry-level atom:rights. Ok, I missed that. For some reason I assumed atom:rights was just a feed-level element (probably thinking of RSS). However, according to the spec it's perfectly acceptable to use a feed-level rights element to grant rights at an entry-level (assuming all your entries are meant to have the same rights). > I can understand how an entry-level atom:rights could be presented to the > end-user, but I can't imagine how it could be done for the feed-level > atom:rights, given that it can change during the feed's "life". The only > solution I can see is to store feed metadata on an atom:source inside each > entry, so you can ask for the entry-level and feed-level atom:rights for > each entry in your aggregator. If I'm going to have to deal with rights on a per-entry basis, I think I'd probably just ignore the concept of feed-level rights. That's not to say I'd ignore the feed-level element altogether - I'd consider it a default to be used if there wasn't an atom:rights element at the entry-level. However, if they're both included I'd ignore the feed-level element. I don't think that's inconsistent with section 4.2.10 of the spec. As for how this applies to the history extension: if the first document retrieved contained a feed-level atom:rights element, but documents linked via fh:prev contained no rights (feed-level or entry-level), I would probably apply the rights from the first document rather than assigning no rights at all. Of course that's where the "security flaw" comes in, but perhaps that's my own fault. > Aggregators are more likely to copy/paste de feed-level authors into each > entry and totally forget about feed-level ones. I'm not sure if you meant "totally forget about the entry-level ones". If that's the case, as a user I wouldn't be very pleased with the aggregator. Most blogs may only have one author per feed, but that's certainly not the case for all feeds. Group blogs, comment feeds, forums, mailing-lists, slashdot - there are plenty of cases where entry-level authors are used. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 08 10:25:30 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOFdi-0003ia-02 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Oct 2005 10:25:30 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA23659 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 10:25:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j98EHS5O057699; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 07:17:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j98EHSMr057698; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 07:17:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.195]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j98EHRb6057680 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 07:17:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id z8so770533qbc for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 08 Oct 2005 07:17:21 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Y+Aw8JlheYUUDNDLTcyoKPXFIHNXtsleh6Al7c/mBdH3sO6CoWwaKPjByOlbtSYQRM1E8NFgzdMr99pft7iBSc0HtyMzNxnLQU5IAh99UoV7Q4zOURKcDAir3fxXmKtitkX4atuRt4e0u88RqlOrULPrY1F14lqz2f2svSmdhe4= Received: by 10.64.184.3 with SMTP id h3mr1375967qbf; Sat, 08 Oct 2005 07:17:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id q18sm603350qbq.2005.10.08.07.17.20; Sat, 08 Oct 2005 07:17:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4347D4EB.9050309@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 07:17:15 -0700 From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Aleksander Slominski <aslom@onet.pl> CC: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: FYI: Advertising Web services with Atom 1.0 References: <4346DA44.5050002@gmail.com> <434726A4.6000801@onet.pl> In-Reply-To: <434726A4.6000801@onet.pl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aleksander Slominski wrote: > > it is interesting that atom reader (in this case it seems to > SharpReader) is actually rendering text content of > > |<content type="application/xml"> > <EndpointReference > xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2005/08/addressing"> > <Address>http://localhost:9085/wsatom/services/HelloWorld > </Address> > </EndpointReference> > </content>| > > are atom readers supposed to do that? would it not be better to have a > proper XHTML as content and store EndpointReference directly as a > child inside atom:entry? after all EndpointReference is used by > services and not Atom GUI apps? > If you take another look at the feed generated, I actually put text content in the summary element. Unfortunately, SharpReader seems to ignore it in favor of the content. I think that as a best practice, Atom readers should defer to the summary if the content type is anything but Text, HTML or XHTML. > second comment is very difficult (or impossible) to know that feed is > actually representing "WS introspection" - should there not be there a > some (optional) element inside atom:feed to indicate that feed > contains (only) list of EndpointReferences? > I've been considering a profile element that can sit on the feed and entry level to indicate this sort of thing. Essentially, the profile element would be used as a key to indicate what kind of feed/entry this is. For example, <feed xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"> <x:profile>http://example.com/atom/profiles/ws-inspection</x:profile> ... </feed> One could easily imagine profile identifiers for blogs, podcasts, news, lists (ala netflix queues), etc. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 08 10:45:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOFwt-0002Pw-2l for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Oct 2005 10:45:19 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA24607 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 10:45:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j98EbjvE059738; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 07:37:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j98Ebjvr059737; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 07:37:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.195]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j98Ebieu059730 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 07:37:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id z8so773545qbc for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 08 Oct 2005 07:37:39 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=asd9brun79t1xyd1t9cRpco6j422uH6zkWIgsmYkT3EKH4F8p1nmD/9HOOjJsEQytuVNOyT+MrcSXetJzZlC9Vif5i8sDC2tn3xTdJYoLbhLJjplj/dArd1L9twD+5Si6KbV3Yf5div3938FglVuJXQinEMFEPvb+wZZLM26Mwo= Received: by 10.65.23.18 with SMTP id a18mr2053479qbj; Sat, 08 Oct 2005 07:37:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e19sm2126859qba.2005.10.08.07.37.38; Sat, 08 Oct 2005 07:37:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4347D9AD.1090200@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 07:37:33 -0700 From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Straw Poll: age:expires vs. dcterms:valid (was Re: Unofficial last call on draft-snell-atompub-feed-expires-04.txt) References: <43381471.5050408@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV15AC22438F4364481BBABBBE8C0@phx.gbl> <433C342B.4000007@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV52BF2303A531524D4E80CBE8C0@phx.gbl> <433C52A0.8030702@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV2558EFD1A5D51FB470414BE8C0@phx.gbl> <BAY106-DAV9BB6069AA9BDCADB23B4EBE8C0@phx.gbl> <5131391D-DCAA-46E1-99A1-E177D5E53382@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <5131391D-DCAA-46E1-99A1-E177D5E53382@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok all, after looking this over in detail, I personally still have a preference for the age:expires and age:max-age elements in the feed-expires spec. Of course, this is likely due more to the fact that I wrote the draft as opposed to a sound, objective and technical perspective. So I want to open it up to a poll. Here are the options. I wanted to indicate that a given entry must expire at Midnight on Dec, 12, 2005 (GMT). using age:expires: <entry> ... <age:expires>2005-12-12T00:00:00Z</age:expires> </entry> Advantage: * The value of the expires element uses the Atom date construct making it ALWAYS compatible with other Atom dates Disadvantage: * New namespace, new element using dcterms:valid (http://web.resource.org/rss/1.0/modules/dcterms/#valid) <entry> <dcterms:valid>end:2005-12-12T00:00:00Z</dcterms:valid> </entry> Advantage: * Existing namespace, known element Disadvantage: * Value can be many different things. I've even seen cases in which the content of dcterms:valid is an XML structure. My chief problem with dcterms:valid (and with dublin core in general) is that the elements are very loosely defined. The content can literally be anything folks want it to be and still be considered valid. Unless we constrain the value space for this element when used in Atom, it *could* lead to a bunch of extra work for consumers to parse and process those dates. I prefer very crisply defined elements. Then again, reusing an existing namespace is Goodness. So what do y'all think? - James Mark Nottingham wrote: > FWIW, the Media RSS extension cites http://web.resource.org/rss/1.0/ > modules/dcterms/#valid] as a best practice. > > > On 29/09/2005, at 4:45 PM, James Holderness wrote: > >> >> Just a follow-up on the representation of Date Ranges in dublin >> core. I was under the mistaken impression that you needed to use a >> DCMI Period encoding to represent a date range, but apparently ISO >> 8601 time intervals are perfectly valid. In order to clarify the >> situation, the DC Date Working Group has recently recommended the >> following replacement for the comment associated with the date element: >> >> "Typically, Date will be associated with the creation or >> availability of the resource. A date value may be a single date or a >> date range. Date values may express temporal information at any >> level of granularity (including time). Recommended best practice for >> encoding the date value is to supply an unambiguous representation >> of the single date or date range using a widely- recognized syntax >> (e.g., YYYY-MM-DD for a single date; YYYY-MM-DD/ YYYY-MM-DD for a >> date range; YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM to specify a single date and time down >> to the minute)." >> >> Full details of the recommendation can be found here: >> http://dublincore.org/usage/meetings/2005/09/madrid/files/ >> 2005-07-29.date-comment.txt >> >> Personally I think that makes the idea of using dublin core for this >> extension a whole lot more palatable. >> >> >> > > > -- > Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 08 10:49:20 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOG0m-0003ia-M0 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Oct 2005 10:49:20 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA24846 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 10:49:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j98EgKhj060084; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 07:42:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j98EgKXF060083; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 07:42:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.198]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j98EgJAQ060072 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 07:42:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id v1so473804nzb for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 08 Oct 2005 07:42:14 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=DzvIRMNF1T9Gzlhzx5+AQ88Pu+BwoeH38NJkuSP8VPqDRJ+8uDVHMAPdm6g3yLHNpJ6TMjUUOqQUTngXwsd+HrMZDQ8GPII1gwOzEaSCmAnpEWiPUU7HiNUfj89buq8FaUiwPArbaA+GEXT93aKgR801BwbtcRbcgXXL0JqYXRs= Received: by 10.36.82.13 with SMTP id f13mr775840nzb; Sat, 08 Oct 2005 07:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id r15sm442273nza.2005.10.08.07.42.13; Sat, 08 Oct 2005 07:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4347DAC1.5070406@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 07:42:09 -0700 From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de> CC: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: FYI: Advertising Web services with Atom 1.0 References: <4346DA44.5050002@gmail.com> <434726A4.6000801@onet.pl> <20051008022922.GA22772@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20051008022922.GA22772@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id KAA24846 A. Pagaltzis wrote: >Atom is not a weblog aggregation format. > >It can be used in that capacity, and certainly is the finest >choice for that, but that is only one possible use case, and >applications using Atom should not be bent around it. > >Putting the EndpointReference in the content is the right thing >to do. Intermediaries and generic Atom stores can trivially pass >it around and/or extract it and delegate it to attached >format-specific processors correctly. > > =20 > +1 >The namespace of the entries=E2=80=99 contents would be a bit of hint, >no? > > =20 > Yes, but it would still be helpful to not have to parse the content in=20 order to see what's in there. In this case the content media type is=20 not much help given that there is not a specific media type for=20 WS-Addressing Endpoint References >>should there not be there a some (optional) element inside >>atom:feed to indicate that feed contains (only) list of >>EndpointReferences? >> =20 >> > >An extension that allows one to define something like that sounds >like a useful thing to have. (James?) > >The right term for this would probably be =E2=80=9Crole=E2=80=9D. Or may= be >=E2=80=9Cprofile=E2=80=9D, in the sense that it=E2=80=99s a constrained = use of a more >generic format. > > =20 > +1. this is something I've been thinking about and could likely have=20 something drafted up in the come couple of weeks. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 08 10:53:54 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOG5C-00054S-MS for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Oct 2005 10:53:54 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA25028 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 10:53:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j98ElK91060445; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 07:47:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j98ElK4u060444; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 07:47:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.198]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j98ElKLc060436 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 07:47:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id z8so775156qbc for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 08 Oct 2005 07:47:14 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=LNPtP5B1p1Ee9c1xuYEAKAnhJWmTuAIg21N9vVv952kyWd7j0oXn8OBsK6uN/Af6l9zV/kYrXm83zQz0heTmof6UQJZPGwh2+IEJG04Tv/WhlmjaW6e66lpIRvFULFwvsTnIfyoK2UzRCqaM9H+JlWuOnHIz991j79jTkdni1gI= Received: by 10.64.193.1 with SMTP id q1mr2046940qbf; Sat, 08 Oct 2005 07:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id m3sm2160530qbe.2005.10.08.07.47.14; Sat, 08 Oct 2005 07:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4347DBED.3040809@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 07:47:09 -0700 From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Holderness <j4_james@hotmail.com> CC: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: Next and Previous References: <20051003202743.GB9049@maribor.izzy.net> <7E3D7FDE-8B75-4ED4-9A7F-8793ABF1726B@mnot.net> <BAY106-DAV2020117498811024F60B20BE820@phx.gbl> <2956.194.250.147.107.1128496366.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> <BAY106-DAV171C5E8DE96BEC651C52ECBE820@phx.gbl> <3138.194.250.147.107.1128500993.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> <BAY106-DAV1941E133C1A06673C8333CBE870@phx.gbl> In-Reply-To: <BAY106-DAV1941E133C1A06673C8333CBE870@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Holderness wrote: > > Thomas Broyer wrote: > >> atom:rights at feed-level don't apply to its entries, just to the >> feed as >> it stands. If you want to grant/restrict rights at an entry-level, >> use the >> entry-level atom:rights. > > > Ok, I missed that. For some reason I assumed atom:rights was just a > feed-level element (probably thinking of RSS). However, according to > the spec it's perfectly acceptable to use a feed-level rights element > to grant rights at an entry-level (assuming all your entries are meant > to have the same rights). > Yeah, this is something I came up against with the license link rel extension as well. If you're going to use the rights element, you really should have it on every individual entry as opposed to the feed level. >> I can understand how an entry-level atom:rights could be presented to >> the >> end-user, but I can't imagine how it could be done for the feed-level >> atom:rights, given that it can change during the feed's "life". The only >> solution I can see is to store feed metadata on an atom:source inside >> each >> entry, so you can ask for the entry-level and feed-level atom:rights for >> each entry in your aggregator. > > > If I'm going to have to deal with rights on a per-entry basis, I think > I'd probably just ignore the concept of feed-level rights. That's not > to say I'd ignore the feed-level element altogether - I'd consider it > a default to be used if there wasn't an atom:rights element at the > entry-level. However, if they're both included I'd ignore the > feed-level element. I don't think that's inconsistent with section > 4.2.10 of the spec. > The feed level element should be considered to apply to the feed; the entry level element should be considered to apply to the entry. For example, if I produce an aggregated feed containing entries from multiple locations, I own the copyright on the feed, but the other authors own the copyrights on the entries. The rights element should reflect that accordingly. > As for how this applies to the history extension: if the first > document retrieved contained a feed-level atom:rights element, but > documents linked via fh:prev contained no rights (feed-level or > entry-level), I would probably apply the rights from the first > document rather than assigning no rights at all. Of course that's > where the "security flaw" comes in, but perhaps that's my own fault. > I would not make this assumption. Each feed/entry in the history SHOULD contain it's own rights element. I would not default anything in this case. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 08 12:16:36 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOHNE-0002O2-RE for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Oct 2005 12:16:36 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA28762 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 12:16:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j98G7ruB067095; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 09:07:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j98G7rpG067094; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 09:07:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j98G7oOp067082 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 09:07:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 08 Oct 2005 16:07:44 -0000 Received: from xdsl-81-173-175-47.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [81.173.175.47] by mail.gmx.net (mp023) with SMTP; 08 Oct 2005 18:07:44 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 18:07:46 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de> To: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: FYI: Advertising Web services with Atom 1.0 Message-ID: <20051008160746.GA26888@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> References: <4346DA44.5050002@gmail.com> <434726A4.6000801@onet.pl> <20051008022922.GA22772@klangraum> <4347DAC1.5070406@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4347DAC1.5070406@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id MAA28762 * James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> [2005-10-08 16:45]: > Yes, but it would still be helpful to not have to parse the > content in order to see what's in there. You need to parse it anyway in order to parse the Atom document as such. With tree-based processing that will have happened before you even get to the data, too. But even with stream processing you only need to wait for the start_element event following that of the atom:content element. That doesn=E2=80=99t mean I disagree that it would be helpful. One case where not having a media type is definitely an issue is with external payloads referenced using atom:content/@src, f.ex. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/> From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 08 14:06:11 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOJ5H-0005Yv-5K for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Oct 2005 14:06:11 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA04950 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 14:06:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j98HvP8M077896; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 10:57:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j98HvPCd077895; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 10:57:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp7k.poczta.onet.pl (smtp7k.poczta.onet.pl [213.180.130.85]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j98HvOMr077889 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 10:57:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aslom@onet.pl) Received: from 12-202-161-198.client.insightBB.com ([12.202.161.198]:13532 "EHLO [192.168.1.100]") by kps7.test.onet.pl with ESMTP id <S1185189AbVJHR5Q>; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 19:57:16 +0200 Message-ID: <43480850.5090607@onet.pl> Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 12:56:32 -0500 From: Aleksander Slominski <aslom@onet.pl> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.5 (Windows/20050711) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> CC: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: FYI: Advertising Web services with Atom 1.0 References: <4346DA44.5050002@gmail.com> <434726A4.6000801@onet.pl> <4347D4EB.9050309@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4347D4EB.9050309@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James M Snell wrote: > Aleksander Slominski wrote: > >> >> it is interesting that atom reader (in this case it seems to >> SharpReader) is actually rendering text content of >> >> |<content type="application/xml"> >> <EndpointReference >> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2005/08/addressing"> >> <Address>http://localhost:9085/wsatom/services/HelloWorld >> </Address> >> </EndpointReference> >> </content>| >> >> are atom readers supposed to do that? would it not be better to have >> a proper XHTML as content and store EndpointReference directly as a >> child inside atom:entry? after all EndpointReference is used by >> services and not Atom GUI apps? >> > If you take another look at the feed generated, I actually put text > content in the summary element. Unfortunately, SharpReader seems to > ignore it in favor of the content. I think that as a best practice, > Atom readers should defer to the summary if the content type is > anything but Text, HTML or XHTML. good point. however that also depends on what is the intended use for the feed: if it is only used for WS introspection then it is targeted for machine processing and maybe administrators that need to see it but not ordinary users/developers but there may be some other usage patterns where a feed will contain entries mixed with regular blog entries. for example xmethods.net could publish not only all service endpoints (WSDL or WSA EPRs - and that would be one long list unless feed history is used) but it may as well publish news feed with new services (and their associated WSDLs, EPRs, ...) along with general changes to the website, hosting, editorials, etc. such feed would be targeted for developers but also easy to use for WS discovery. > >> second comment is very difficult (or impossible) to know that feed is >> actually representing "WS introspection" - should there not be there >> a some (optional) element inside atom:feed to indicate that feed >> contains (only) list of EndpointReferences? >> > I've been considering a profile element that can sit on the feed and > entry level to indicate this sort of thing. Essentially, the profile > element would be used as a key to indicate what kind of feed/entry > this is. > For example, > <feed xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"> > <x:profile>http://example.com/atom/profiles/ws-inspection</x:profile> > ... > </feed> > > One could easily imagine profile identifiers for blogs, podcasts, > news, lists (ala netflix queues), etc. > maybe that should be a special kind of atom:link with rel="http://example.rog/Atom/feedType|feedProfile"? maybe it would be good to allow multiple feed types to apply to one feed (or maybe not as it starts to sound like multiple inheritance in OO ...) best, alek -- --- Memorable Quote from Firefly (105. Out Of Gas) -Ship like this, be with you until you die -That's because it's a deathtrap From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 08 20:51:23 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOPPP-0002LM-1M for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Oct 2005 20:51:23 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA22718 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 20:51:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j990dtDo011435; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 17:39:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j990dtg6011434; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 17:39:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.204]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j990dsPj011423 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 17:39:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 8so455698nzo for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 08 Oct 2005 17:39:49 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=QrR+G7y7GkzE5nzbsHsI6VE9NKgBVW0heNTXOaVsVJRJcwSB/I62ZuCigeaXGpC+t6zx4epSLjrlTeY54pzYH49t4d6T64+CNNtHKAXjOGxL4iA0Eld4HHiMBiL0FG4nf1dka2XeZUiCWCPP1N+X73K4FtjaK+655iHy/w+o2u4= Received: by 10.36.65.12 with SMTP id n12mr837751nza; Sat, 08 Oct 2005 17:39:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.12.28 with HTTP; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 17:39:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c50510081739w49cfa0aej9c7482e6979efcb4@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 20:39:49 -0400 From: Robert Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> To: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: re: Straw Poll: age:expires vs. dcterms:valid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j990dtPj011428 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just like every other dublin core element, dc:valid is very good for labeling things, and very bad in a wire format. In fact, I've even read emails from OCLC folks claiming that the few restrictions RSS1 "modules" make don't apply when using them in Atom or RSS2. So, I don't really see how it could be a "best practice". Shame on Media RSS. I support draft-snell-atompub-feed-expires-04.txt moving to Proposed Standard. (FYI-- silence does not mean consent during a last call. Movement onto the standards track requires on-the-record comments supporting the draft... AFAIK). Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 09 04:03:35 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOW9e-0004qW-UU for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 04:03:35 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA01870 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 04:03:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j997tiPP050942; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 00:55:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j997tinb050941; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 00:55:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav24.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.96]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j997tinA050933 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 00:55:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 00:55:44 -0700 Message-ID: <BAY106-DAV24D422E04D9AA5B69A0E54BE860@phx.gbl> Received: from 81.179.113.210 by BAY106-DAV24.phx.gbl with DAV; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 07:55:43 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.113.210] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" <j4_james@hotmail.com> To: "Atom Syntax" <atom-syntax@imc.org> References: <43381471.5050408@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV15AC22438F4364481BBABBBE8C0@phx.gbl> <433C342B.4000007@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV52BF2303A531524D4E80CBE8C0@phx.gbl> <433C52A0.8030702@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV2558EFD1A5D51FB470414BE8C0@phx.gbl> <BAY106-DAV9BB6069AA9BDCADB23B4EBE8C0@phx.gbl> <5131391D-DCAA-46E1-99A1-E177D5E53382@mnot.net> <4347D9AD.1090200@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Straw Poll: age:expires vs. dcterms:valid (was Re: Unofficial last call on draft-snell-atompub-feed-expires-04.txt) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 08:55:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2005 07:55:44.0082 (UTC) FILETIME=[D9CF8320:01C5CCA6] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd be in favour of dcterms:valid (preferably restricted in form) for the following reasons: * I'm worried that producers of RSS 1.0 feeds would be more likely to use dcterms:valid and thus consumers would be obliged to support it anyway. * dcterms:valid has slightly more functionality in that you get to specify a start date. However, I'm not vehemently opposed to age:expires if that's the route you choose to take. James M Snell wrote: > Ok all, after looking this over in detail, I personally still have a > preference for the age:expires and age:max-age elements in the > feed-expires spec. Of course, this is likely due more to the fact that I > wrote the draft as opposed to a sound, objective and technical > perspective. So I want to open it up to a poll. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 09 04:24:20 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOWTk-0001xr-HG for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 04:24:20 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA02594 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 04:24:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j998I1Mb053184; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 01:18:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j998I1Kc053183; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 01:18:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav13.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.85]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j998I1L9053177 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 01:18:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 01:18:00 -0700 Message-ID: <BAY106-DAV13E27264337E31572CB568BE860@phx.gbl> Received: from 81.179.113.210 by BAY106-DAV13.phx.gbl with DAV; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 08:18:00 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.113.210] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" <j4_james@hotmail.com> To: "Atom Syntax" <atom-syntax@imc.org> References: <20051003202743.GB9049@maribor.izzy.net> <7E3D7FDE-8B75-4ED4-9A7F-8793ABF1726B@mnot.net> <BAY106-DAV2020117498811024F60B20BE820@phx.gbl> <2956.194.250.147.107.1128496366.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> <BAY106-DAV171C5E8DE96BEC651C52ECBE820@phx.gbl> <3138.194.250.147.107.1128500993.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> <BAY106-DAV1941E133C1A06673C8333CBE870@phx.gbl> <4347DBED.3040809@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Next and Previous Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 09:17:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2005 08:18:00.0729 (UTC) FILETIME=[F683A890:01C5CCA9] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The feed level element should be considered to apply to the feed; the > entry level element should be considered to apply to the entry. For > example, if I produce an aggregated feed containing entries from multiple > locations, I own the copyright on the feed, but the other authors own the > copyrights on the entries. The rights element should reflect that > accordingly. Agreed. I just don't see myself being enthusiastic enough to provide that level of support in an aggregator. Throwing in a copyright message at the bottom of an entry is probably not too difficult. Anything more than that seems like way too much effort. I mean how many end-users are really likely to care about that sort of thing. > I would not make this assumption. Each feed/entry in the history SHOULD > contain it's own rights element. I would not default anything in this > case. Yeah, you're probably right. I was never convinced that was a good idea. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 09 04:45:12 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOWnw-0006H7-KA for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 04:45:12 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA03429 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 04:45:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j998dOP8055976; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 01:39:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j998dOXs055975; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 01:39:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav13.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.85]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j998dNqB055963 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 01:39:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 01:39:20 -0700 Message-ID: <BAY106-DAV13F335976A9EB2782977C1BE860@phx.gbl> Received: from 81.179.113.210 by BAY106-DAV13.phx.gbl with DAV; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 08:39:20 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.113.210] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" <j4_james@hotmail.com> To: "Atom Syntax" <atom-syntax@imc.org> References: <6543D8BF-09B2-4C03-9721-8779BA024C39@mnot.net> <B79679B6-875B-4C4C-8D03-427224371823@bblfish.net> Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 09:39:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2005 08:39:20.0431 (UTC) FILETIME=[F146AFF0:01C5CCAC] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Following up on the idea of using atom:link instead of fh:prev, I recently came across an old article by Mark Pilgrim on XML.com (http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2004/06/16/dive.html) in which he discusses the atom:link element and the various rel attributes it supports. He specifically brings up the issue of feed history and using next and prev to link archives together. It sounded to me as if he was talking about an existing feature in the spec - it wasn't like he was proposing it as a new idea. So was this something that used to be part of an old version of the spec that was later removed? Or was this an early proposal that was never accepted into the spec? Also of interest: there's a link from that article to his archives on diveintomark.org which actually include next and prev links in the feed. I'm almost inclined to add support for that just so I can access those old posts. There used to be some excellent articles on his site. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 09 04:53:24 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOWvi-0007bJ-VO for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 04:53:24 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA03691 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 04:53:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j998lIpi056720; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 01:47:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j998lIlx056719; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 01:47:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j998lHPr056712 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 01:47:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 51903 invoked by uid 17064); 9 Oct 2005 08:47:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [Y?@IPv6:::1]) ([82.90.56.29]) (envelope-sender <henry.story@bblfish.net>) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for <j4_james@hotmail.com>; 9 Oct 2005 08:47:17 -0000 In-Reply-To: <BAY106-DAV13F335976A9EB2782977C1BE860@phx.gbl> References: <6543D8BF-09B2-4C03-9721-8779BA024C39@mnot.net> <B79679B6-875B-4C4C-8D03-427224371823@bblfish.net> <BAY106-DAV13F335976A9EB2782977C1BE860@phx.gbl> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <2E63E549-A052-47E2-9A22-B5E7DF1FF286@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net> Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 10:47:17 +0200 To: James Holderness <j4_james@hotmail.com>, Syntax Atom <atom-syntax@imc.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe it was part of atom 0.3, and for some complex reason I never bothered trying to understand someone decided it should be moved over to the protocol side of things. Probably just because the debate was taking up too much time... So yes. 'prev' and 'next' have always been intended to be there in the link element... Henry On 9 Oct 2005, at 10:39, James Holderness wrote: > > Following up on the idea of using atom:link instead of fh:prev, I > recently came across an old article by Mark Pilgrim on XML.com > (http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2004/06/16/dive.html) in which he > discusses the atom:link element and the various rel attributes it > supports. He specifically brings up the issue of feed history and > using next and prev to link archives together. > > It sounded to me as if he was talking about an existing feature in > the spec - it wasn't like he was proposing it as a new idea. So was > this something that used to be part of an old version of the spec > that was later removed? Or was this an early proposal that was > never accepted into the spec? > > Also of interest: there's a link from that article to his archives > on diveintomark.org which actually include next and prev links in > the feed. I'm almost inclined to add support for that just so I can > access those old posts. There used to be some excellent articles on > his site. > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 09 05:24:15 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOXPj-0004nr-Ii for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 05:24:15 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA04923 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 05:24:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j999GPM6060256; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 02:16:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j999GPcw060255; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 02:16:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j999GO3b060249 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 02:16:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 58489 invoked by uid 17064); 9 Oct 2005 09:16:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [IPv6:::1]) ([82.90.56.29]) (envelope-sender <henry.story@bblfish.net>) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for <j4_james@hotmail.com>; 9 Oct 2005 09:16:24 -0000 In-Reply-To: <2E63E549-A052-47E2-9A22-B5E7DF1FF286@bblfish.net> References: <6543D8BF-09B2-4C03-9721-8779BA024C39@mnot.net> <B79679B6-875B-4C4C-8D03-427224371823@bblfish.net> <BAY106-DAV13F335976A9EB2782977C1BE860@phx.gbl> <2E63E549-A052-47E2-9A22-B5E7DF1FF286@bblfish.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <22791896-0151-4023-874E-B1F4AC8C95E8@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net> Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 11:16:24 +0200 To: James Holderness <j4_james@hotmail.com>, Syntax Atom <atom-syntax@imc.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It occurred to me that I should think a little more before speaking. There seems to be a history of the atom spec here: http://bitworking.org/projects/atom/ I could not find the prev link in any of the specs. So I guess I was mistaken. But I also always thought of prev and next as being very good candidates for the link element. I never raised my voice against the move at the time because I assumed most decisions on this list were good ones. There is one reference to prev and next here: http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/LinkTagMeaning Henry On 9 Oct 2005, at 10:47, Henry Story wrote: > > I believe it was part of atom 0.3, and for some complex reason I never > bothered trying to understand someone decided it should be moved > over to > the protocol side of things. Probably just because the debate was > taking up > too much time... > > So yes. 'prev' and 'next' have always been intended to be there in > the link element... > > Henry > > On 9 Oct 2005, at 10:39, James Holderness wrote: > >> >> Following up on the idea of using atom:link instead of fh:prev, I >> recently came across an old article by Mark Pilgrim on XML.com >> (http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2004/06/16/dive.html) in which he >> discusses the atom:link element and the various rel attributes it >> supports. He specifically brings up the issue of feed history and >> using next and prev to link archives together. >> >> It sounded to me as if he was talking about an existing feature in >> the spec - it wasn't like he was proposing it as a new idea. So >> was this something that used to be part of an old version of the >> spec that was later removed? Or was this an early proposal that >> was never accepted into the spec? >> >> Also of interest: there's a link from that article to his archives >> on diveintomark.org which actually include next and prev links in >> the feed. I'm almost inclined to add support for that just so I >> can access those old posts. There used to be some excellent >> articles on his site. >> > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 09 09:35:46 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EObL8-0006LG-R3 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 09:35:46 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA16764 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 09:35:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j99DPYKZ084081; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 06:25:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j99DPYfB084080; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 06:25:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav24.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.96]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j99DPY4l084074 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 06:25:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 06:25:33 -0700 Message-ID: <BAY106-DAV24A3763C4DA06DD570A2C8BE860@phx.gbl> Received: from 81.179.113.210 by BAY106-DAV24.phx.gbl with DAV; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 13:25:33 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.113.210] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" <j4_james@hotmail.com> To: "Syntax Atom" <atom-syntax@imc.org> References: <6543D8BF-09B2-4C03-9721-8779BA024C39@mnot.net> <B79679B6-875B-4C4C-8D03-427224371823@bblfish.net> <BAY106-DAV13F335976A9EB2782977C1BE860@phx.gbl> <2E63E549-A052-47E2-9A22-B5E7DF1FF286@bblfish.net> <22791896-0151-4023-874E-B1F4AC8C95E8@bblfish.net> Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 14:25:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2005 13:25:33.0903 (UTC) FILETIME=[ED768DF0:01C5CCD4] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Funny you should say that. When you told me it was part of Atom 0.3 I also thought to myself that I should have checked that before posting. Technically you were correct. Version 0.3 of the syndication format doesn't mention next and prev explicitly, but it does say (in section 3.4.1) that the rel attribute "must be one of the values enumerated in the API specification". And at the time the API specification included (amongst others) start, next and prev. They were only recently removed (in draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-03). If you look at the draft prior to that you'll find them in section 3.5.1. Regards James Henry Story wrote: > It occurred to me that I should think a little more before speaking. > > There seems to be a history of the atom spec here: > > http://bitworking.org/projects/atom/ > > I could not find the prev link in any of the specs. So I guess I was > mistaken. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 09 12:50:01 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOeN7-0006RM-F4 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 12:50:01 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA26982 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:49:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j99GgqwE007434; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 09:42:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j99GgqND007433; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 09:42:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j99GgpPt007427 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 09:42:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 853303D3DE; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:42:50 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <BAY106-DAV13F335976A9EB2782977C1BE860@phx.gbl> References: <6543D8BF-09B2-4C03-9721-8779BA024C39@mnot.net> <B79679B6-875B-4C4C-8D03-427224371823@bblfish.net> <BAY106-DAV13F335976A9EB2782977C1BE860@phx.gbl> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <731826E6-1608-416A-A223-21D9AFB4FB07@mnot.net> Cc: "Atom Syntax" <atom-syntax@imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 09:42:47 -0700 To: James Holderness <j4_james@hotmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Managing Feed State" was a placeholder I put in the original Atom spec draft <http://www.mnot.net/drafts/draft-nottingham-atom- format-00.html#rfc.section.4> for just this kind of discussion. The WG couldn't come to a consensus on a mechanism (my proposal was <http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceFeedState>), so we removed that section (earlier this year, IIRC). On 09/10/2005, at 1:39 AM, James Holderness wrote: > > Following up on the idea of using atom:link instead of fh:prev, I > recently came across an old article by Mark Pilgrim on XML.com > (http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2004/06/16/dive.html) in which he > discusses the atom:link element and the various rel attributes it > supports. He specifically brings up the issue of feed history and > using next and prev to link archives together. > > It sounded to me as if he was talking about an existing feature in > the spec - it wasn't like he was proposing it as a new idea. So was > this something that used to be part of an old version of the spec > that was later removed? Or was this an early proposal that was > never accepted into the spec? > > Also of interest: there's a link from that article to his archives > on diveintomark.org which actually include next and prev links in > the feed. I'm almost inclined to add support for that just so I can > access those old posts. There used to be some excellent articles on > his site. > > > > -- Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist Office of the CTO BEA Systems -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 09 12:53:59 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOeQw-00075X-Td for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 12:53:58 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA27135 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:53:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j99Gl9dB007706; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 09:47:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j99Gl9t8007705; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 09:47:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j99Gl82E007698 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 09:47:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF83E3D3DE; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:47:07 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <4347D9AD.1090200@gmail.com> References: <43381471.5050408@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV15AC22438F4364481BBABBBE8C0@phx.gbl> <433C342B.4000007@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV52BF2303A531524D4E80CBE8C0@phx.gbl> <433C52A0.8030702@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV2558EFD1A5D51FB470414BE8C0@phx.gbl> <BAY106-DAV9BB6069AA9BDCADB23B4EBE8C0@phx.gbl> <5131391D-DCAA-46E1-99A1-E177D5E53382@mnot.net> <4347D9AD.1090200@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <7F58F504-E2CB-45D2-B1CC-210DDB9CB63C@mnot.net> Cc: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> Subject: Re: Straw Poll: age:expires vs. dcterms:valid (was Re: Unofficial last call on draft-snell-atompub-feed-expires-04.txt) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 09:47:05 -0700 To: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm torn; on the one hand, dcterms is already defined, and already used in other feed formats; on the other hand, the syntax is less- than-simple. So, I'm neutral on this. On 08/10/2005, at 7:37 AM, James M Snell wrote: > > Ok all, after looking this over in detail, I personally still have > a preference for the age:expires and age:max-age elements in the > feed-expires spec. Of course, this is likely due more to the fact > that I wrote the draft as opposed to a sound, objective and > technical perspective. So I want to open it up to a poll. > Here are the options. > > I wanted to indicate that a given entry must expire at Midnight on > Dec, 12, 2005 (GMT). > using age:expires: > > <entry> > ... > <age:expires>2005-12-12T00:00:00Z</age:expires> > </entry> > > Advantage: > * The value of the expires element uses the Atom date construct > making it ALWAYS compatible with other Atom dates > Disadvantage: > * New namespace, new element > > using dcterms:valid (http://web.resource.org/rss/1.0/modules/ > dcterms/#valid) > > <entry> > <dcterms:valid>end:2005-12-12T00:00:00Z</dcterms:valid> > </entry> > > Advantage: > * Existing namespace, known element > Disadvantage: > * Value can be many different things. I've even seen cases in > which the content of dcterms:valid is an XML structure. > My chief problem with dcterms:valid (and with dublin core in > general) is that the elements are very loosely defined. The > content can literally be anything folks want it to be and still be > considered valid. Unless we constrain the value space for this > element when used in Atom, it *could* lead to a bunch of extra work > for consumers to parse and process those dates. I prefer very > crisply defined elements. Then again, reusing an existing > namespace is Goodness. > > So what do y'all think? > > - James > > Mark Nottingham wrote: > > > >> FWIW, the Media RSS extension cites http://web.resource.org/rss/ >> 1.0/ modules/dcterms/#valid] as a best practice. >> >> >> On 29/09/2005, at 4:45 PM, James Holderness wrote: >> >> >> >>> >>> Just a follow-up on the representation of Date Ranges in dublin >>> core. I was under the mistaken impression that you needed to use >>> a DCMI Period encoding to represent a date range, but apparently >>> ISO 8601 time intervals are perfectly valid. In order to clarify >>> the situation, the DC Date Working Group has recently >>> recommended the following replacement for the comment associated >>> with the date element: >>> >>> "Typically, Date will be associated with the creation or >>> availability of the resource. A date value may be a single date >>> or a date range. Date values may express temporal information at >>> any level of granularity (including time). Recommended best >>> practice for encoding the date value is to supply an >>> unambiguous representation of the single date or date range >>> using a widely- recognized syntax (e.g., YYYY-MM-DD for a single >>> date; YYYY-MM-DD/ YYYY-MM-DD for a date range; YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM >>> to specify a single date and time down to the minute)." >>> >>> Full details of the recommendation can be found here: >>> http://dublincore.org/usage/meetings/2005/09/madrid/files/ >>> 2005-07-29.date-comment.txt >>> >>> Personally I think that makes the idea of using dublin core for >>> this extension a whole lot more palatable. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ >> >> >> >> > > > > -- Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist Office of the CTO BEA Systems -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 09 13:28:29 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOeyK-000488-Sj for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 13:28:28 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA28603 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 13:28:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j99HM4KW010426; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 10:22:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j99HM47W010425; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 10:22:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j99HM3KL010412 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 10:22:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from philringnalda@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id v1so564545nzb for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 10:21:58 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=hqZ/IisxxPZl3STnrbkeiLoD4ASmsX2EF0VJgsK2hei8g3UvDbtgvQ0PyWZBZRNaiExsc8VFysvYhBZPQ21F7mB5LeLBIeL1ntzQ5ZjoOimapjYwg8M4z6En9OnN999nDLHdsZeIkZdWk2c73fQE589MdH2FnAAxfmOiLuhmKpE= Received: by 10.37.18.72 with SMTP id v72mr1969465nzi; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 10:21:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?64.28.49.194? ( [64.28.49.194]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 18sm2969101nzo.2005.10.09.10.21.54; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 10:21:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <434951AC.4080204@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 10:21:48 -0700 From: Phil Ringnalda <philringnalda@gmail.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.6a1 (Windows/20050926) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: Straw Poll: age:expires vs. dcterms:valid (was Re: Unofficial last call on draft-snell-atompub-feed-expires-04.txt) References: <43381471.5050408@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV15AC22438F4364481BBABBBE8C0@phx.gbl> <433C342B.4000007@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV52BF2303A531524D4E80CBE8C0@phx.gbl> <433C52A0.8030702@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV2558EFD1A5D51FB470414BE8C0@phx.gbl> <BAY106-DAV9BB6069AA9BDCADB23B4EBE8C0@phx.gbl> <5131391D-DCAA-46E1-99A1-E177D5E53382@mnot.net> <4347D9AD.1090200@gmail.com> <7F58F504-E2CB-45D2-B1CC-210DDB9CB63C@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <7F58F504-E2CB-45D2-B1CC-210DDB9CB63C@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Nottingham wrote: > > I'm torn; on the one hand, dcterms is already defined, and already used > in other feed formats; on the other hand, the syntax is less-than-simple. Indeed. A perfectly, utterly valid <dcterms:valid> value: start=George W. Bush; scheme=US Presidents; name=Bush II I'm -1 on using Dublin Core for anything other than providing human-readable labels for human-readable data. Phil Ringnalda From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 09 15:12:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOgae-0004oJ-NP for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 15:12:08 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA03652 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 15:12:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j99J2cUj018564; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:02:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j99J2cAc018563; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:02:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.195]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j99J2bhX018548 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:02:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id d9so1060878qbd for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 12:02:32 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=M2AtZbBngqXAaoYPxMHHjm3HepCbzkMF66KoKT3CK3wYQGWiybNieZ0z1T/CTCxRQ+ZgzGOKYa1D3WhtiS/V6VHc0il8Ve9tL2viG54owRl2Wy769AXn/EAiM3MT5yVeJyou2hdNMxVkhaodpXh0tTEkP2UUa7H74q3cNNREx7g= Received: by 10.65.97.16 with SMTP id z16mr2083857qbl; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 12:02:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.75.18 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:02:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3f1451f50510091202m55af1d4ct5d0bf7ee7c1b52df@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 15:02:32 -0400 From: Joe Gregorio <joe.gregorio@gmail.com> To: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net> Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Cc: James Holderness <j4_james@hotmail.com>, Syntax Atom <atom-syntax@imc.org> In-Reply-To: <22791896-0151-4023-874E-B1F4AC8C95E8@bblfish.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <6543D8BF-09B2-4C03-9721-8779BA024C39@mnot.net> <B79679B6-875B-4C4C-8D03-427224371823@bblfish.net> <BAY106-DAV13F335976A9EB2782977C1BE860@phx.gbl> <2E63E549-A052-47E2-9A22-B5E7DF1FF286@bblfish.net> <22791896-0151-4023-874E-B1F4AC8C95E8@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j99J2chX018557 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/9/05, Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net> wrote: > > It occurred to me that I should think a little more before speaking. > > There seems to be a history of the atom spec here: > > http://bitworking.org/projects/atom/ > > I could not find the prev link in any of the specs. So I guess I was > mistaken. It's in there: http://bitworking.org/projects/atom/draft-gregorio-09.html#rfc.section.5.4.1 So -1 to draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-04.txt for not using a link tag of rel="prev". -joe -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 09 15:57:20 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOhIO-0003S8-Ok for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 15:57:20 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA06409 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 15:57:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j99Jo57M024018; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:50:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j99Jo5nV024017; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:50:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ussjmh01.bea.com (ussjmh01.bea.com [63.96.162.5]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j99Jo4bf024008 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:50:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from markn@bea.com) Received: from ussjfe02.amer.bea.com (ussjfe02.bea.com [172.16.120.52]) by ussjmh01.bea.com (Switch-3.0.5/Switch-3.0.0) with ESMTP id j99JkpgU010318; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:46:52 -0700 Received: from USSFEX01.amer.bea.com ([10.32.0.56]) by ussjfe02.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:46:51 -0700 Received: from [172.16.1.2] ([172.24.28.146]) by USSFEX01.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:46:51 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3f1451f50510091202m55af1d4ct5d0bf7ee7c1b52df@mail.gmail.com> References: <6543D8BF-09B2-4C03-9721-8779BA024C39@mnot.net> <B79679B6-875B-4C4C-8D03-427224371823@bblfish.net> <BAY106-DAV13F335976A9EB2782977C1BE860@phx.gbl> <2E63E549-A052-47E2-9A22-B5E7DF1FF286@bblfish.net> <22791896-0151-4023-874E-B1F4AC8C95E8@bblfish.net> <3f1451f50510091202m55af1d4ct5d0bf7ee7c1b52df@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <E2688566-DFC2-484D-B037-63CB22C1E4CD@bea.com> Cc: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>, James Holderness <j4_james@hotmail.com>, Syntax Atom <atom-syntax@imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham <mark.nottingham@bea.com> Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:46:46 -0700 To: Joe Gregorio <joe.gregorio@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2005 19:46:51.0069 (UTC) FILETIME=[31510ED0:01C5CD0A] X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.2.0, Antispam-Data: 2005.10.9.2 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The format doesn't reference the API document any more, and the current API document <http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf- atompub-protocol-04.txt> doesn't include anything about that link relation; it was removed. On 09/10/2005, at 12:02 PM, Joe Gregorio wrote: > > On 10/9/05, Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net> wrote: > >> >> It occurred to me that I should think a little more before speaking. >> >> There seems to be a history of the atom spec here: >> >> http://bitworking.org/projects/atom/ >> >> I could not find the prev link in any of the specs. So I guess I was >> mistaken. >> > > It's in there: > > http://bitworking.org/projects/atom/draft- > gregorio-09.html#rfc.section.5.4.1 > > So -1 to draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-04.txt for not using > a link tag of rel="prev". > > -joe > > -- > Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org > > > -- Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist Office of the CTO BEA Systems ________________________________________________________________________________ BEAWorld 2005: coming to a city near you. Everything you need for SOA and enterprise infrastructure success. Register now at http://www.bea.com/4beaworld London 11-12 Oct| Paris13-14 Oct| Prague18-19 Oct |Tokyo 25-26 Oct| Beijing 7-8 Dec From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 09 16:11:40 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOhWF-0005VX-Sq for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 16:11:40 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA06999 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 16:11:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j99K3xI0025051; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 13:03:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j99K3xAO025050; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 13:03:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.203]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j99K3wNZ025041 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 13:03:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 8so514884nzo for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 13:03:53 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=o+47yNWj5HwoN8fDsiM+CXxH5jAxWyyDerYSKP+Zmw/4Nedql0OEygdEvZm3SosUCXp4OyiDwJBjq4dnHEQKgXt02ux5iZ60MxiN9TtawRdOWds736n+Ex0TwqenSaKm1pjsKWmcfAiFzhMC/76QryxLCXJr7RsxseHbZSuJ8kY= Received: by 10.36.79.6 with SMTP id c6mr1243887nzb; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 13:03:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.12.28 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 13:03:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c50510091303k38785cc0w493b1b11f8b0d149@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 16:03:53 -0400 From: Robert Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> To: Mark Nottingham <mark.nottingham@bea.com> Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Cc: Joe Gregorio <joe.gregorio@gmail.com>, Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>, James Holderness <j4_james@hotmail.com>, Syntax Atom <atom-syntax@imc.org> In-Reply-To: <E2688566-DFC2-484D-B037-63CB22C1E4CD@bea.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <6543D8BF-09B2-4C03-9721-8779BA024C39@mnot.net> <B79679B6-875B-4C4C-8D03-427224371823@bblfish.net> <BAY106-DAV13F335976A9EB2782977C1BE860@phx.gbl> <2E63E549-A052-47E2-9A22-B5E7DF1FF286@bblfish.net> <22791896-0151-4023-874E-B1F4AC8C95E8@bblfish.net> <3f1451f50510091202m55af1d4ct5d0bf7ee7c1b52df@mail.gmail.com> <E2688566-DFC2-484D-B037-63CB22C1E4CD@bea.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j99K3wNZ025045 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/9/05, Mark Nottingham <mark.nottingham@bea.com> wrote: > > The format doesn't reference the API document any more, That's good. > and the > current API document <http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf- > atompub-protocol-04.txt> doesn't include anything about that link > relation; it was removed. No, but Amazon OpenSearch has been threatening to register it, FWIW. :) Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 09 18:49:01 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOjyX-0002Dw-Hy for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 18:49:01 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA16491 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 18:48:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j99MfdBY039815; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 15:41:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j99Mfdu7039814; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 15:41:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav5.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.77]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j99Mfclq039808 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 15:41:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 15:41:38 -0700 Message-ID: <BAY106-DAV59926455DB34EABDCD2E3BE860@phx.gbl> Received: from 81.179.113.210 by BAY106-DAV5.phx.gbl with DAV; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 22:41:38 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.113.210] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" <j4_james@hotmail.com> To: "Syntax Atom" <atom-syntax@imc.org> References: <6543D8BF-09B2-4C03-9721-8779BA024C39@mnot.net> <B79679B6-875B-4C4C-8D03-427224371823@bblfish.net> <BAY106-DAV13F335976A9EB2782977C1BE860@phx.gbl> <2E63E549-A052-47E2-9A22-B5E7DF1FF286@bblfish.net> <22791896-0151-4023-874E-B1F4AC8C95E8@bblfish.net> <3f1451f50510091202m55af1d4ct5d0bf7ee7c1b52df@mail.gmail.com> <E2688566-DFC2-484D-B037-63CB22C1E4CD@bea.com> <68fba5c50510091303k38785cc0w493b1b11f8b0d149@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 23:41:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2005 22:41:38.0578 (UTC) FILETIME=[9C5BEF20:01C5CD22] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In case anyone is interested, the OpenSearch Response draft can be found here: http://opensearch.a9.com/spec/opensearchresponse/1.1/ The rel values they support include next, previous (not prev), start and end. They have a note next to each saying "This value is pending IETF registration". Does that mean they've actually started some kind of registration process or they're just hoping to do so at some point in the future? Another issue worth noting is that their example RSS feed is also using atom:link to provide this functionality. Robert Sayre wrote: > No, but Amazon OpenSearch has been threatening to register it, FWIW. :) From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 09 20:51:48 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOltM-0000sN-Gl for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 20:51:48 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA21748 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 20:51:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9A0jFhG050765; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 17:45:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9A0jFNE050764; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 17:45:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9A0jEC6050758 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 17:45:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E0EC3D39D; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 20:45:13 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <BAY106-DAV59926455DB34EABDCD2E3BE860@phx.gbl> References: <6543D8BF-09B2-4C03-9721-8779BA024C39@mnot.net> <B79679B6-875B-4C4C-8D03-427224371823@bblfish.net> <BAY106-DAV13F335976A9EB2782977C1BE860@phx.gbl> <2E63E549-A052-47E2-9A22-B5E7DF1FF286@bblfish.net> <22791896-0151-4023-874E-B1F4AC8C95E8@bblfish.net> <3f1451f50510091202m55af1d4ct5d0bf7ee7c1b52df@mail.gmail.com> <E2688566-DFC2-484D-B037-63CB22C1E4CD@bea.com> <68fba5c50510091303k38785cc0w493b1b11f8b0d149@mail.gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV59926455DB34EABDCD2E3BE860@phx.gbl> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <1C36B344-052E-4E5C-B1A0-9BCE5D10F63D@mnot.net> Cc: "Syntax Atom" <atom-syntax@imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 17:45:10 -0700 To: James Holderness <j4_james@hotmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Looks like the whole "use URIs for non-registered values" approach has already gone by the wayside. Oh, well. Next time, it should just be URIs, period -- no shortcuts. On 09/10/2005, at 3:41 PM, James Holderness wrote: > They have a note next to each saying "This value is pending IETF > registration". Does that mean they've actually started some kind of > registration process or they're just hoping to do so at some point > in the future? -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 10 00:13:27 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOp2V-0001VT-8j for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:13:27 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA29257 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:13:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9A46cUY068983; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:06:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9A46c3Z068982; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:06:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.198]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9A46cSb068970 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:06:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id d9so1140787qbd for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:06:32 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ZjlTUAL/MGCRKJ0DOIPFSArRzQB5Kuf+SOhX7jjQ+DXYR9YbfJzrYSqH01xmDeBKBji9EZB5NEiEMMa6mY4J05X7hfkpawZBd0hPfwTJtRoHjBAI9k9AYKVO3zlEKTJ2iL+Z3KGQd/XHIDwEC27p+LESdiEfiLztL8ed4hn32hs= Received: by 10.65.96.1 with SMTP id y1mr2336520qbl; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:06:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?12.66.91.233? ( [12.66.91.233]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id p4sm3061547qba.2005.10.09.21.06.30; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:06:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4349E8C1.7030109@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:06:25 -0700 From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Holderness <j4_james@hotmail.com> CC: Syntax Atom <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: Feed History -04 References: <6543D8BF-09B2-4C03-9721-8779BA024C39@mnot.net> <B79679B6-875B-4C4C-8D03-427224371823@bblfish.net> <BAY106-DAV13F335976A9EB2782977C1BE860@phx.gbl> <2E63E549-A052-47E2-9A22-B5E7DF1FF286@bblfish.net> <22791896-0151-4023-874E-B1F4AC8C95E8@bblfish.net> <3f1451f50510091202m55af1d4ct5d0bf7ee7c1b52df@mail.gmail.com> <E2688566-DFC2-484D-B037-63CB22C1E4CD@bea.com> <68fba5c50510091303k38785cc0w493b1b11f8b0d149@mail.gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV59926455DB34EABDCD2E3BE860@phx.gbl> In-Reply-To: <BAY106-DAV59926455DB34EABDCD2E3BE860@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been considering asking the Opensearch folks if they would be willing to separate their next/previous/first/last link relations out to a separate spec that could be made a working group draft. The paging functionality they offer provides a solution to paging in the protocol and are generally useful across a broad variety of feed application cases. Regardless, it would be very good to see these registered. - James James Holderness wrote: > > In case anyone is interested, the OpenSearch Response draft can be > found here: > > http://opensearch.a9.com/spec/opensearchresponse/1.1/ > > The rel values they support include next, previous (not prev), start > and end. They have a note next to each saying "This value is pending > IETF registration". Does that mean they've actually started some kind > of registration process or they're just hoping to do so at some point > in the future? > > Another issue worth noting is that their example RSS feed is also > using atom:link to provide this functionality. > > Robert Sayre wrote: > >> No, but Amazon OpenSearch has been threatening to register it, FWIW. :) > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 10 00:14:34 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOp3a-0001dX-Jf for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:14:34 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA29279 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:14:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9A42H4R068779; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:02:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9A42H36068778; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:02:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.203]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9A42HXF068768 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:02:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id d9so1140135qbd for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:02:11 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=rEqIRRYlQ4toaibJ0RTzl2FCo6I8TPiaLq+hDEoHnKTgd83SVkVGI2dX1bRjKsLroWZYRRPAQcXhBgaCputdcRjksE+OM+usxZXaPcYUKpJTWCiTbBch878YlPVggRhlacR+0KF1WaRB8eX/zhKu69+subMmr/qer1agwtEJyeI= Received: by 10.65.97.16 with SMTP id z16mr2310448qbl; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:02:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?12.66.91.233? ( [12.66.91.233]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e14sm3060338qbe.2005.10.09.21.02.09; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:02:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4349E7BB.4020000@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:02:03 -0700 From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Holderness <j4_james@hotmail.com> CC: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: Straw Poll: age:expires vs. dcterms:valid (was Re: Unofficial last call on draft-snell-atompub-feed-expires-04.txt) References: <43381471.5050408@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV15AC22438F4364481BBABBBE8C0@phx.gbl> <433C342B.4000007@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV52BF2303A531524D4E80CBE8C0@phx.gbl> <433C52A0.8030702@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV2558EFD1A5D51FB470414BE8C0@phx.gbl> <BAY106-DAV9BB6069AA9BDCADB23B4EBE8C0@phx.gbl> <5131391D-DCAA-46E1-99A1-E177D5E53382@mnot.net> <4347D9AD.1090200@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV24D422E04D9AA5B69A0E54BE860@phx.gbl> In-Reply-To: <BAY106-DAV24D422E04D9AA5B69A0E54BE860@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Holderness wrote: > > I'd be in favour of dcterms:valid (preferably restricted in form) for > the following reasons: > > * I'm worried that producers of RSS 1.0 feeds would be more likely to > use dcterms:valid and thus consumers would be obliged to support it > anyway. I would expect anyone who uses RSS 1.0 would be more likely to use extensions that are well suited to RSS 1.0 and that anyone who uses Atom 1.0 would be more likely to use extensions that are well suited to Atom. If there is the possibility of cross-over, great, if not, that's ok also. > * dcterms:valid has slightly more functionality in that you get to > specify a start date. > I don't necessarily want more functionality. The atom:updated date gives us a perfectly good start date. > However, I'm not vehemently opposed to age:expires if that's the route > you choose to take. > Given the feedback thus far, I'm leaning strongly in favor of keeping age:expires (thanks, Robert, for the clear up vote) - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 10 00:11:44 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOp0q-0001Bd-O2 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:11:44 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA29162 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:11:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9A442Jp068862; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:04:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9A442c7068861; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:04:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.200]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9A441Fa068853 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:04:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id q18so1152294qba for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:03:56 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=VtOK7AXtajwyBubyVQCTHP1oXndCCFkFOP/bzCTKJ7FZF3fv9sHCpIzrIV/JttlE8tlQs1N2Q9yyafWWl0i0I6TgvyWF3I5g97HIMBgSrFgf1t2JCnp5SncO2gci2PnysBJ0qeYeWkyvw6QEJtrvQ5JylXdW/zJpLkp1UggRMzo= Received: by 10.65.138.20 with SMTP id q20mr3001905qbn; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?12.66.91.233? ( [12.66.91.233]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id q15sm3074118qbq.2005.10.09.21.03.53; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4349E824.3060005@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:03:48 -0700 From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> CC: James Holderness <j4_james@hotmail.com>, Syntax Atom <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: Feed History -04 References: <6543D8BF-09B2-4C03-9721-8779BA024C39@mnot.net> <B79679B6-875B-4C4C-8D03-427224371823@bblfish.net> <BAY106-DAV13F335976A9EB2782977C1BE860@phx.gbl> <2E63E549-A052-47E2-9A22-B5E7DF1FF286@bblfish.net> <22791896-0151-4023-874E-B1F4AC8C95E8@bblfish.net> <3f1451f50510091202m55af1d4ct5d0bf7ee7c1b52df@mail.gmail.com> <E2688566-DFC2-484D-B037-63CB22C1E4CD@bea.com> <68fba5c50510091303k38785cc0w493b1b11f8b0d149@mail.gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV59926455DB34EABDCD2E3BE860@phx.gbl> <1C36B344-052E-4E5C-B1A0-9BCE5D10F63D@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <1C36B344-052E-4E5C-B1A0-9BCE5D10F63D@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't think not using the URI is a problem so long as the intent is to register the value and you make an attempt at standardization. The problems arise when folks use names when they have no intention of standardizing or registering. - James Mark Nottingham wrote: > > Looks like the whole "use URIs for non-registered values" approach > has already gone by the wayside. Oh, well. > > Next time, it should just be URIs, period -- no shortcuts. > > > On 09/10/2005, at 3:41 PM, James Holderness wrote: > > >> They have a note next to each saying "This value is pending IETF >> registration". Does that mean they've actually started some kind of >> registration process or they're just hoping to do so at some point >> in the future? > > > > -- > Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 10 00:19:16 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOp87-0002OW-Jt for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:19:16 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA29558 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:19:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9A4BtWu069294; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:11:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9A4BthJ069293; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:11:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.192]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9A4BsK9069282 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:11:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id q18so1153839qba for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:11:49 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=mOmiKg57fONCGFmMYu2+h/oryTVmTMNlTKuKrylD+9Y9egIVJl2qM9XzQmL80/XkMBjMy8eZJgHHBIjTSIUbsk1PfVjtQtKfY6KBgokYcyDrCxqOhp9xQ73qp55G1bEBS/YB7Efh4d7b+59OtNiwFoKI9pDbkuOv2QwsEAQwmwc= Received: by 10.65.53.10 with SMTP id f10mr3010930qbk; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:11:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?12.66.91.233? ( [12.66.91.233]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id d5sm295939qbd.2005.10.09.21.11.46; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:11:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4349E9FC.6070900@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:11:40 -0700 From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Aleksander Slominski <aslom@onet.pl> CC: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: FYI: Advertising Web services with Atom 1.0 References: <4346DA44.5050002@gmail.com> <434726A4.6000801@onet.pl> <4347D4EB.9050309@gmail.com> <43480850.5090607@onet.pl> In-Reply-To: <43480850.5090607@onet.pl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Would dc:conformsTo work in this case? Aleksander Slominski wrote: > James M Snell wrote: > >> Aleksander Slominski wrote: >> >>> >>> it is interesting that atom reader (in this case it seems to >>> SharpReader) is actually rendering text content of >>> >>> |<content type="application/xml"> >>> <EndpointReference >>> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2005/08/addressing"> >>> <Address>http://localhost:9085/wsatom/services/HelloWorld >>> </Address> >>> </EndpointReference> >>> </content>| >>> >>> are atom readers supposed to do that? would it not be better to have >>> a proper XHTML as content and store EndpointReference directly as a >>> child inside atom:entry? after all EndpointReference is used by >>> services and not Atom GUI apps? >>> >> If you take another look at the feed generated, I actually put text >> content in the summary element. Unfortunately, SharpReader seems to >> ignore it in favor of the content. I think that as a best practice, >> Atom readers should defer to the summary if the content type is >> anything but Text, HTML or XHTML. > > > good point. however that also depends on what is the intended use for > the feed: if it is only used for WS introspection then it is targeted > for machine processing and maybe administrators that need to see it > but not ordinary users/developers but there may be some other usage > patterns where a feed will contain entries mixed with regular blog > entries. for example xmethods.net could publish not only all service > endpoints (WSDL or WSA EPRs - and that would be one long list unless > feed history is used) but it may as well publish news feed with new > services (and their associated WSDLs, EPRs, ...) along with general > changes to the website, hosting, editorials, etc. such feed would be > targeted for developers but also easy to use for WS discovery. > >> >>> second comment is very difficult (or impossible) to know that feed >>> is actually representing "WS introspection" - should there not be >>> there a some (optional) element inside atom:feed to indicate that >>> feed contains (only) list of EndpointReferences? >>> >> I've been considering a profile element that can sit on the feed and >> entry level to indicate this sort of thing. Essentially, the profile >> element would be used as a key to indicate what kind of feed/entry >> this is. >> For example, >> <feed xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"> >> >> <x:profile>http://example.com/atom/profiles/ws-inspection</x:profile> >> ... >> </feed> >> >> One could easily imagine profile identifiers for blogs, podcasts, >> news, lists (ala netflix queues), etc. >> > maybe that should be a special kind of atom:link with > rel="http://example.rog/Atom/feedType|feedProfile"? > > maybe it would be good to allow multiple feed types to apply to one > feed (or maybe not as it starts to sound like multiple inheritance in > OO ...) > > best, > > alek > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 10 00:50:22 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOpcB-0006Jy-65 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:50:22 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA00844 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:50:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9A4hTBC071953; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:43:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9A4hTlK071952; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:43:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.11]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9A4hRIr071944 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:43:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] ([203.30.247.18] verified) by ironclad.net.au (Stalker SMTP Server 1.7) with ESMTP id S.0000931771 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:43:23 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:43:21 +1000 Subject: Re: Straw Poll: age:expires vs. dcterms:valid (was Re: Unofficial last call on draft-snell-atompub-feed-expires-04.txt) From: Eric Scheid <eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au> To: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Message-ID: <BF702E89.74474%eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au> In-Reply-To: <4349E7BB.4020000@gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/10/05 2:02 PM, "James M Snell" <jasnell@gmail.com> wrote: >> * dcterms:valid has slightly more functionality in that you get to >> specify a start date. >> > I don't necessarily want more functionality. The atom:updated date > gives us a perfectly good start date. Perhaps atom:published would be better for this semantic. Unlike atom:updated, it can be hold a future value, IIRC. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 10 01:05:54 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOprG-0008BU-2M for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 01:05:54 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA01452 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 01:05:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9A4xvHl073245; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:59:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9A4xvF1073244; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:59:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9A4xuK5073231 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:59:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 950D43D386; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:59:55 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <434951AC.4080204@gmail.com> References: <43381471.5050408@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV15AC22438F4364481BBABBBE8C0@phx.gbl> <433C342B.4000007@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV52BF2303A531524D4E80CBE8C0@phx.gbl> <433C52A0.8030702@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV2558EFD1A5D51FB470414BE8C0@phx.gbl> <BAY106-DAV9BB6069AA9BDCADB23B4EBE8C0@phx.gbl> <5131391D-DCAA-46E1-99A1-E177D5E53382@mnot.net> <4347D9AD.1090200@gmail.com> <7F58F504-E2CB-45D2-B1CC-210DDB9CB63C@mnot.net> <434951AC.4080204@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <40BA0933-7ECA-4CA5-BF22-24A239DB298E@mnot.net> Cc: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> Subject: Re: Straw Poll: age:expires vs. dcterms:valid (was Re: Unofficial last call on draft-snell-atompub-feed-expires-04.txt) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:59:51 -0700 To: Phil Ringnalda <philringnalda@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yeah, that kind of tears it for me; we could profile it, but I'm less than convinced that the potential reuse is worth it (esp. when it's so trivial to map age:expires into dcterms:valid). +1 to age:expires. On 09/10/2005, at 10:21 AM, Phil Ringnalda wrote: > > Mark Nottingham wrote: > > >> I'm torn; on the one hand, dcterms is already defined, and already >> used in other feed formats; on the other hand, the syntax is less- >> than-simple. >> >> > > Indeed. A perfectly, utterly valid <dcterms:valid> value: > > start=George W. Bush; scheme=US Presidents; name=Bush II > > I'm -1 on using Dublin Core for anything other than providing human- > readable labels for human-readable data. > > Phil Ringnalda > > > > -- Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist Office of the CTO BEA Systems -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 10 01:05:55 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOprH-0008Cm-RC for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 01:05:55 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA01455 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 01:05:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9A4xSRu073197; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:59:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9A4xSZm073196; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:59:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9A4xRCD073188 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:59:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id q12so170462qbq for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:59:22 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Rf+u58ixfwtKFYiGX2UnW0k0lhYQVyIxg/mhbX4JMDYgthL+Yxaw7XH8nOxNQMmxVJAcRZe2mJ1/jsnh5+lh7m31rWUAvaZdgxDmzU0ifB3RcKPEhIv2GAxsmN+mL8QZATA7fApcWP3w6ZXIa8kyFnqmnXk+wBzxLzoPuuBBH+s= Received: by 10.64.241.9 with SMTP id o9mr2298898qbh; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:59:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?12.66.91.233? ( [12.66.91.233]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e15sm3067734qba.2005.10.09.21.59.00; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:59:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4349F4F5.50008@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:58:29 -0700 From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Scheid <eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au> CC: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: Straw Poll: age:expires vs. dcterms:valid (was Re: Unofficial last call on draft-snell-atompub-feed-expires-04.txt) References: <BF702E89.74474%eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au> In-Reply-To: <BF702E89.74474%eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yeah, I've been thinking a bit about that. The only thing that was holding me back was that atom:published is optional and only appears on atom:entry. I wanted the extension to be able to work on the feed level also. That said, the spec could be updated to say that IF the published date is used on the entry, it represents the moment at which the entry is considered "valid" and becomes the base for the age:max-age element. - James Eric Scheid wrote: >On 10/10/05 2:02 PM, "James M Snell" <jasnell@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >>>* dcterms:valid has slightly more functionality in that you get to >>>specify a start date. >>> >>> >>> >>I don't necessarily want more functionality. The atom:updated date >>gives us a perfectly good start date. >> >> > >Perhaps atom:published would be better for this semantic. Unlike >atom:updated, it can be hold a future value, IIRC. > >e. > > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 10 02:49:55 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOrTv-0005mF-J8 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 02:49:55 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA20324 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 02:49:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9A6hBm4080935; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 23:43:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9A6hB85080934; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 23:43:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav24.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.96]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9A6hBh1080928 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 23:43:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 23:43:10 -0700 Message-ID: <BAY106-DAV24FA56951917B8873C2ADCBE790@phx.gbl> Received: from 81.179.113.210 by BAY106-DAV24.phx.gbl with DAV; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 06:43:10 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.113.210] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" <j4_james@hotmail.com> To: "Atom Syntax" <atom-syntax@imc.org> References: <43381471.5050408@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV15AC22438F4364481BBABBBE8C0@phx.gbl> <433C342B.4000007@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV52BF2303A531524D4E80CBE8C0@phx.gbl> <433C52A0.8030702@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV2558EFD1A5D51FB470414BE8C0@phx.gbl> <BAY106-DAV9BB6069AA9BDCADB23B4EBE8C0@phx.gbl> <5131391D-DCAA-46E1-99A1-E177D5E53382@mnot.net> <4347D9AD.1090200@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV24D422E04D9AA5B69A0E54BE860@phx.gbl> <4349E7BB.4020000@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Straw Poll: age:expires vs. dcterms:valid (was Re: Unofficial last call on draft-snell-atompub-feed-expires-04.txt) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 07:43:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Oct 2005 06:43:10.0877 (UTC) FILETIME=[E182E4D0:01C5CD65] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James M Snell: > I would expect anyone who uses RSS 1.0 would be more likely to use > extensions that are well suited to RSS 1.0 and that anyone who uses Atom > 1.0 would be more likely to use extensions that are well suited to Atom. > If there is the possibility of cross-over, great, if not, that's ok also. Fair enough. I was just trying to make things easier for aggregator developers who are obliged to support both types. However, if age:expires is better for Atom (and that certainly seems to be the consensus) then that's the way you should go. >> * dcterms:valid has slightly more functionality in that you get to >> specify a start date. >> > I don't necessarily want more functionality. The atom:updated date gives > us a perfectly good start date. Well if you go with atom:published rather than atom:updated, as Eric suggested, then that clinches it for me. You have my vote. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 10 11:34:36 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOzfg-0004Yv-2Q for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:34:36 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA00551 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:34:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9AFNw6E034467; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:23:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9AFNwno034466; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:23:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.198.43]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9AFNvBd034451 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:23:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2005101015235201400l4opbe>; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 15:23:52 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <F72F2266-A1D3-48DD-8D9C-22EB569112A4@geckotribe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Antone Roundy <antone@geckotribe.com> Subject: Re: Straw Poll: age:expires vs. dcterms:valid (was Re: Unofficial last call on draft-snell-atompub-feed-expires-04.txt) On Oct 8, 2005, at 8:37 AM, James M Snell wrote: I wanted to indicate that a given entry must expire at Midnight on Dec, 12, 2005 (GMT). using age:expires: [snip] using dcterms:valid (http://web.resource.org/rss/1.0/modules/dcterms/#valid) <entry> <dcterms:valid>end:2005-12-12T00:00:00Z</dcterms:valid> </entry> Advantage: * Existing namespace, known element Disadvantage: * Value can be many different things. I've even seen cases in which the content of dcterms:valid is an XML structure. My chief problem with dcterms:valid (and with dublin core in general) is that the elements are very loosely defined. The content can literally be anything folks want it to be and still be considered valid. Unless we constrain the value space for this element when used in Atom, it *could* lead to a bunch of extra work for consumers to parse and! process those dates. I prefer very crisply defined elements. Then again, reusing an existing namespace is Goodness. I think it would be going too far to say "when using dcterms:valid in Atom, you must follow this profile", because we don't own dcterms, and doing so might limit people from doing valid things with it that don't follow that profile. But I do think it would be reasonable to say "when using dcterms:valid in Atom, it is recommended that you follow this profile--otherwise your data may be technically valid, but not widely understood", thus giving developers an excuse for not supporting data not formatted according to that profile. If a use case that requires a different format becomes common, then developers can start supporting more formats at that point. That said, my "vote" is for doing what I just said--advocate the use of dcterms:valid for this purpose, with the date formatted to match Atom's date construct profile. BTW, you might choose language that ! leaves room for having both start and end dates for validity--! for exam Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 09:23:50 -0600 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oops, sent this from the wrong address on Saturday. No wonder it didn't get through. On Oct 8, 2005, at 8:37 AM, James M Snell wrote: > I wanted to indicate that a given entry must expire at Midnight on > Dec, 12, 2005 (GMT). > using age:expires: > [snip] > using dcterms:valid (http://web.resource.org/rss/1.0/modules/ > dcterms/#valid) > > <entry> > <dcterms:valid>end:2005-12-12T00:00:00Z</dcterms:valid> > </entry> > > Advantage: > * Existing namespace, known element > Disadvantage: > * Value can be many different things. I've even seen cases in > which the content of dcterms:valid is an XML structure. > My chief problem with dcterms:valid (and with dublin core in > general) is that the elements are very loosely defined. The > content can literally be anything folks want it to be and still be > considered valid. Unless we constrain the value space for this > element when used in Atom, it *could* lead to a bunch of extra work > for consumers to parse and process those dates. I prefer very > crisply defined elements. Then again, reusing an existing > namespace is Goodness. > I think it would be going too far to say "when using dcterms:valid in Atom, you must follow this profile", because we don't own dcterms, and doing so might limit people from doing valid things with it that don't follow that profile. But I do think it would be reasonable to say "when using dcterms:valid in Atom, it is recommended that you follow this profile--otherwise your data may be technically valid, but not widely understood", thus giving developers an excuse for not supporting data not formatted according to that profile. If a use case that requires a different format becomes common, then developers can start supporting more formats at that point. That said, my "vote" is for doing what I just said--advocate the use of dcterms:valid for this purpose, with the date formatted to match Atom's date construct profile. BTW, you might choose language that leaves room for having both start and end dates for validity--for example, to enable Atom delivery of a coupon that's valid for a particular span of dates. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 10 11:44:34 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOzpJ-00038l-VU for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:44:34 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA00868 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:44:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9AFbdbl035600; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:37:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9AFbd06035599; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:37:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9AFbcqo035589 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:37:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <2005101015373301500b8r4be>; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 15:37:33 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: <F72F2266-A1D3-48DD-8D9C-22EB569112A4@geckotribe.com> References: <F72F2266-A1D3-48DD-8D9C-22EB569112A4@geckotribe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <5EB2DDDB-6F2F-4A4D-BB3C-119607ED7B73@geckotribe.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy <antone@geckotribe.com> Subject: Re: Straw Poll: age:expires vs. ...... plus a gazillion words Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 09:37:29 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gaaaah! Sorry about the mile long subject. Gotta be careful with that copy and paste! From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 11 07:22:27 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPIDD-0005Dq-3L for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 07:22:27 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA15156 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 07:22:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9BBDo4P067824; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 04:13:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9BBDnhL067822; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 04:13:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9BBDmOa067814 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 04:13:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian.reschke@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 11 Oct 2005 11:13:42 -0000 Received: from pd95b7d02.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (EHLO [192.168.1.40]) [217.91.125.2] by mail.gmx.net (mp010) with SMTP; 11 Oct 2005 13:13:42 +0200 X-Authenticated: #1915285 Message-ID: <434B9E5B.4080007@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:13:31 +0200 From: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> CC: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: FYI: Google Reader and Atom 1.0 References: <43470794.5010007@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <43470794.5010007@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James M Snell wrote: > > FYI: Thanks to Robert Sayre for pointing it out, but when y'all get a > chance, take a look at the internals of the new Google Reader app > (http://reader.google.com). It's using AJAX and Atom 1.0 feeds to serve > up the data into the browser interface. The interface itself leaves a > lot to be desired, but the model they're using is significant. Well > worth a look. Hm. As far as I can tell, it doesn't process Atom content of type XHTML, for instance (<http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/webdav.atom>). Best regards, Julian From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 11 10:15:37 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPKum-0008Q4-Vb for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 10:15:37 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA26524 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 10:15:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9BE5q6I087451; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 07:05:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9BE5qVp087450; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 07:05:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.204]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9BE5pk3087440 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 07:05:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 8so766019nzo for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 07:05:46 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=XIbUahEzgQV+JNn1I+Nf/4yU/6vn/B3f1Zm5XDbeX1yiamoQfJ8aUU8kmm7JBXy/BkqIVOZul20Oq3vlpzdKyN3x/AEmnJcegRBkD/Ltcf3FeKlSyRULlKF9WvL55eLfzpaJLu4a3WpbYij2bMyK/oycPsCQ7ZYnODt9yVK/rCM= Received: by 10.36.56.1 with SMTP id e1mr5888481nza; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 07:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.12.28 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 07:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c50510110705i52db0039kf2775586cf84d0d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 10:05:45 -0400 From: Robert Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> To: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de> Subject: Re: FYI: Google Reader and Atom 1.0 Cc: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>, Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> In-Reply-To: <434B9E5B.4080007@gmx.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <43470794.5010007@gmail.com> <434B9E5B.4080007@gmx.de> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9BE5pk3087443 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/11/05, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de> wrote: > Hm. As far as I can tell, it doesn't process Atom content of type XHTML, > for instance (<http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/webdav.atom>). There are definitely bugs with every feed format right now, but I tried <http://tantek.com/log/posts.atom> and it worked fine. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 11 12:09:34 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPMh4-000709-8c for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 12:09:34 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA11724 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 12:09:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9BG1HBm001067; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 09:01:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9BG1HSu001066; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 09:01:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.203]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9BG1GIs001045 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 09:01:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id z8so1448166qbc for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 09:01:11 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=iOqs3VU4bf+VZMS5itO6BPRgLGBsGTBDr6r0QCTeZdI/VIMUAFVVYYtgS7LdrpUWHXIH2GEs7MGcF99rHDWX8P0pVtI/kzgBNrHt0AFso2UsHqzbJ3nuC3XuTg0QlIXWMVW6zqMDr6LY9+QQ91UPWFXmkf/cDebMPnsA92UaULk= Received: by 10.65.38.14 with SMTP id q14mr2334263qbj; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 09:01:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e11sm1848587qbc.2005.10.11.09.01.10; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 09:01:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <434BE1C0.6000402@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 09:01:04 -0700 From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> CC: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>, Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: FYI: Google Reader and Atom 1.0 References: <43470794.5010007@gmail.com> <434B9E5B.4080007@gmx.de> <68fba5c50510110705i52db0039kf2775586cf84d0d@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <68fba5c50510110705i52db0039kf2775586cf84d0d@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, there actually appear to be quite a few problems with the service right now. Hopefully they'll get those worked out. I'm also concerned about their use of named linked relations. I understand that the feeds they are using to drive their app are intended only for their app, but it would still be good practice to adhere to the spec. Minor infraction tho. Robert Sayre wrote: >On 10/11/05, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de> wrote: > > >>Hm. As far as I can tell, it doesn't process Atom content of type XHTML, >>for instance (<http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/webdav.atom>). >> >> > >There are definitely bugs with every feed format right now, but I >tried <http://tantek.com/log/posts.atom> and it worked fine. > >Robert Sayre > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 11 16:00:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPQIE-0005ah-CN for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 16:00:10 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA27600 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 16:00:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9BJo3JD025678; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 12:50:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9BJo3b9025677; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 12:50:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from newodin.ietf.org ([132.151.6.50]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9BJo2Tk025663 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 12:50:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mlee@newodin.ietf.org) Received: from mlee by newodin.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1EPQ8P-0001Rn-Vy; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 15:50:02 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-05.txt Message-Id: <E1EPQ8P-0001Rn-Vy@newodin.ietf.org> Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 15:50:01 -0400 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Atom Publishing Format and Protocol Working Group of the IETF. Title : The Atom Publishing Protocol Author(s) : B. de Hora, J. Gregorio Filename : draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-05.txt Pages : 42 Date : 2005-10-11 This memo presents a protocol for using XML (Extensible Markup Language) and HTTP (HyperText Transport Protocol) to edit content. The Atom Publishing Protocol (APP) is an application-level protocol for publishing and editing Web resources. The protocol at its core is the HTTP transport of Atom-formatted representations. The Atom format is documented in the Atom Syndication Format (draft-ietf-atompub-format-11.txt). A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-05.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-05.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-05.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-10-11104814.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-05.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-05.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-10-11104814.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Oct 12 06:04:03 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPdSt-00015h-G9 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 06:04:03 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA10482 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 06:03:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9C9sYZE000925; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 02:54:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9C9sYju000924; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 02:54:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nproxy.gmail.com (nproxy.gmail.com [64.233.182.197]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9C9sXiW000918 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 02:54:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pascal.philippe@gmail.com) Received: by nproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id o25so23679nfa for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 02:54:33 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=hT91w+49QnQxH5bInIW0l44+1nOFIw+uAQzRP68MZTLZTW0GwLZwfwSbZ/04yezH9DlAv2boLGtew44Q1tewLI4CnOeUjk5VfwdxKLSt+k8c3uBOPa7Fa6OKBCtYfjKmNkzU8Fw3UPvOwLAxgsT2Qvm5IinSlvDAEEuVBkC2jzM= Received: by 10.48.226.7 with SMTP id y7mr16087nfg; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 02:54:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.48.3.14 with HTTP; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 02:54:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <233ee76a0510120254h6f9c3514l@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 11:54:33 +0200 From: Pascal Philippe <pascal.philippe@gmail.com> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: more than one content element? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9C9sYiW000919 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, I would like to try to understand why we can't have more than one atom:content element within an atom:entry element. Could you give me the reason of this choice? For example, in a web blog entry, I can have more than one components. A web blog entry can be, as example, a picture (encoded in base64) with a text. How can I represent this using the Atom syntax? Thanks!! Pascal From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 03:39:12 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPxgG-00062V-6u for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 03:39:12 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA29852 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 03:39:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9D7TtBx024144; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 00:29:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9D7TtO0024143; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 00:29:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav1.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.73]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9D7TtaF024133 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 00:29:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 00:29:52 -0700 Message-ID: <BAY106-DAV10B0D48744BF93AD89BF6BE7A0@phx.gbl> Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV1.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 07:29:51 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" <j4_james@hotmail.com> To: <atom-syntax@imc.org> References: <233ee76a0510120254h6f9c3514l@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: more than one content element? Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:29:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Oct 2005 07:29:52.0121 (UTC) FILETIME=[E66C0E90:01C5CFC7] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pascal Philippe wrote: > For example, in a web blog entry, I can have more than one components. > A web blog entry can be, as example, a picture (encoded in base64) > with a text. How can I represent this using the Atom syntax? If you want the image to appear inline, you can include it as an HTML (or XHTML) img tag within the atom:content element. Alternatively, if it would be better represented as an attachment you can include it as an enclosure (an atom:link element with the rel attribute set to "enclosure"). Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 04:21:46 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPyLQ-0001AY-6t for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 04:21:46 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA01859 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 04:21:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9D8C64T028201; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 01:12:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9D8C6N4028200; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 01:12:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.11]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9D8C0fT028184 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 01:12:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] ([203.30.247.18] verified) by ironclad.net.au (Stalker SMTP Server 1.7) with ESMTP id S.0000943686 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 18:10:45 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 18:11:37 +1000 Subject: Re: more than one content element? From: Eric Scheid <eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au> To: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Message-ID: <BF7453D9.74C94%eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au> In-Reply-To: <233ee76a0510120254h6f9c3514l@mail.gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12/10/05 7:54 PM, "Pascal Philippe" <pascal.philippe@gmail.com> wrote: > I would like to try to understand why we can't have more than one > atom:content element within an atom:entry element. Could you give me > the reason of this choice? IIRC, it was thought it would be too burdensome for developers to cope with the possibility, first detecting that there are multiple atom:content elements, and then having to either choose one of the formats they support or providing mechanisms for the user to select. It would have been handy for a recent use case: in Switzerland, govt announcements need to be made in three languages, simultaneously, and without favour to any one language. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 05:28:26 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPzNy-0002QG-5v for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 05:28:26 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA05364 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 05:28:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9D9JUB6035553; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 02:19:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9D9JU7k035552; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 02:19:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.21]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9D9JTUg035545 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 02:19:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 13 Oct 2005 09:19:22 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-255-200.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.255.200] by mail.gmx.net (mp026) with SMTP; 13 Oct 2005 11:19:22 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:19:31 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: more than one content element? Message-ID: <20051013091931.GC4030@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <233ee76a0510120254h6f9c3514l@mail.gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV10B0D48744BF93AD89BF6BE7A0@phx.gbl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <BAY106-DAV10B0D48744BF93AD89BF6BE7A0@phx.gbl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> * James Holderness <j4_james@hotmail.com> [2005-10-13 09:40]: > If you want the image to appear inline, you can include it as > an HTML (or XHTML) img tag within the atom:content element. > Alternatively, if it would be better represented as an > attachment you can include it as an enclosure (an atom:link > element with the rel attribute set to "enclosure"). And deviously, you can inline the image data inside the feed too, by using a data: URI with one of these methods. However, shipping blobs around inside a feed is not a bright idea with the currently common feed use cases. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/> From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 06:14:49 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQ06r-0006Ca-Lb for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 06:14:49 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA07307 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 06:14:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DA5LR0040920; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 03:05:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9DA5K1s040917; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 03:05:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav23.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.95]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DA5JwR040910 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 03:05:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 03:05:19 -0700 Message-ID: <BAY106-DAV236B089E74CEB7118BC2EDBE7A0@phx.gbl> Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV23.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:05:18 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" <j4_james@hotmail.com> To: <atom-syntax@imc.org> References: <233ee76a0510120254h6f9c3514l@mail.gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV10B0D48744BF93AD89BF6BE7A0@phx.gbl> <20051013091931.GC4030@klangraum> Subject: Re: more than one content element? Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:05:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Oct 2005 10:05:19.0007 (UTC) FILETIME=[9DADEAF0:01C5CFDD] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A. Pagaltzis wrote: > And deviously, you can inline the image data inside the feed too, > by using a data: URI with one of these methods. > > However, shipping blobs around inside a feed is not a bright idea > with the currently common feed use cases. There's also the problem that Internet Explorer doesn't support data: URIs. And I suspect (although I may be wrong) that most client-side aggregators use IE functionality for their HTML display. My other also-not-likely-to-be-supported suggestion if you really wanted to bundle a blob in your message would be to include an atom:content with a type of multipart/mixed or multipart/related. However I see that Atom explicitly disallows that. Anyone know the reason? Not that I have any desire to do such a thing - just curious. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 12:30:40 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQ5ya-0002Nl-40 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:30:40 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA27422 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:30:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DGKiXf033652; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:20:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9DGKi3m033651; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:20:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mcom.com (c3po.aoltw.net [64.236.137.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DGKivs033643 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:20:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jpanzer@aol.net) Received: from [10.169.186.1] (sera-10-169-186-1.nscp.aoltw.net [10.169.186.1]) by mcom.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id j9DGKAU29587; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:20:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <434E893D.8070104@aol.net> Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:20:13 -0700 From: John Panzer <jpanzer@aol.net> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0RC1 (Windows/20041201) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Holderness <j4_james@hotmail.com> CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: more than one content element? References: <233ee76a0510120254h6f9c3514l@mail.gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV10B0D48744BF93AD89BF6BE7A0@phx.gbl> <20051013091931.GC4030@klangraum> <BAY106-DAV236B089E74CEB7118BC2EDBE7A0@phx.gbl> In-Reply-To: <BAY106-DAV236B089E74CEB7118BC2EDBE7A0@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Holderness wrote: > > A. Pagaltzis wrote: > >> And deviously, you can inline the image data inside the feed too, >> by using a data: URI with one of these methods. >> >> However, shipping blobs around inside a feed is not a bright idea >> with the currently common feed use cases. > > > There's also the problem that Internet Explorer doesn't support data: > URIs. And I suspect (although I may be wrong) that most client-side > aggregators use IE functionality for their HTML display. > > My other also-not-likely-to-be-supported suggestion if you really > wanted to bundle a blob in your message would be to include an > atom:content with a type of multipart/mixed or multipart/related. > However I see that Atom explicitly disallows that. Anyone know the > reason? Not that I have any desire to do such a thing - just curious. If I recall, I believe this is because some people wanted to be able to package multiple pieces of content together in a single entry, and other people did not want to have to imply a requirement for MIME multipart parsing as pat of the Atom format specification. So this was kicked over to the APP to handle as a series of posts using generic non-entry resources and links. Me? I just want to post cat pictures. -John From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 13:22:37 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQ6mq-0000pM-AW for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:22:37 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA29850 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:22:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DHEI2G051506; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:14:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9DHEI5b051505; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:14:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.21]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9DHEGbI051455 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:14:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 13 Oct 2005 17:14:10 -0000 Received: from xdsl-87-78-46-123.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [87.78.46.123] by mail.gmx.net (mp020) with SMTP; 13 Oct 2005 19:14:10 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 19:14:19 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: more than one content element? Message-ID: <20051013171419.GB8832@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <233ee76a0510120254h6f9c3514l@mail.gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV10B0D48744BF93AD89BF6BE7A0@phx.gbl> <20051013091931.GC4030@klangraum> <BAY106-DAV236B089E74CEB7118BC2EDBE7A0@phx.gbl> <434E893D.8070104@aol.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <434E893D.8070104@aol.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id NAA29850 * John Panzer <jpanzer@aol.net> [2005-10-13 18:45]: > If I recall, I believe this is because some people wanted to be > able to package multiple pieces of content together in a single > entry, and other people did not want to have to imply a > requirement for MIME multipart parsing as pat of the Atom > format specification. And in retrospect, I think this was a mistake. F.ex. a while ago we had someone asking why he isn=E2=80=99t able to publish mailing list archives as a feed with entries containing the original message as a message/rfc822 payload, and indeed there=E2=80=99s no good reason he can=E2=80=99t. He just can=E2=80=99t. (This would have been a nice use case: stick the original message into atom:content and put a version rendered as HTML into atom:summary. I have to say I am liking this atom:summary/atom:content dichotomy more and more with every passing day.) The right thing, I *think*, would have been for Atom Format to say that an Atom processor MAY decode envelopes (translation: don=E2=80=99t hold your breath), and for Atom Protocol to say the server MUST NOT decode envelopes (translation: if I ship a message/rfc822 payload, the server simply stores it as such). As is, the only option is to stick the blob into an enclosure, inlined though the backdoor by using a data: URI. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/> From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 13:38:33 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQ72G-0004gc-SY for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:38:33 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA00957 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:38:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DHSrxx057053; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:28:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9DHSrO9057052; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:28:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mX1.myOutlookonline.com (mx1.MyOutlookOnline.com [69.25.74.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DHSrRF056997 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:28:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from byrne@sixapart.com) Received: from be022.mail.lan ([10.109.209.122]) by mX1.myOutlookonline.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:28:47 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Feed History -04 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:28:45 -0400 Message-ID: <E77DF28A12028844BECD228870BEDA3E280B2B@be022.mail.lan> Thread-Topic: Feed History -04 Thread-Index: AcXNUWvNikQ+58+hT4+pS7j28Ab2LQCyUcYg From: "Byrne Reese" <byrne@sixapart.com> To: "James M Snell" <jasnell@gmail.com>, "James Holderness" <j4_james@hotmail.com> Cc: "Syntax Atom" <atom-syntax@imc.org> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Oct 2005 17:28:47.0644 (UTC) FILETIME=[91A9B5C0:01C5D01B] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9DHSrRF057047 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I was wondering if someone might be able to summarize the issues associated with a <link rel="next"> and <link rel="previous">? What were the primary objections? I ask because it seems like a very logical core component for the spec, especially as a link relation. -----Original Message----- From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of James M Snell Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 9:06 PM To: James Holderness Cc: Syntax Atom Subject: Re: Feed History -04 I've been considering asking the Opensearch folks if they would be willing to separate their next/previous/first/last link relations out to a separate spec that could be made a working group draft. The paging functionality they offer provides a solution to paging in the protocol and are generally useful across a broad variety of feed application cases. Regardless, it would be very good to see these registered. - James James Holderness wrote: > > In case anyone is interested, the OpenSearch Response draft can be > found here: > > http://opensearch.a9.com/spec/opensearchresponse/1.1/ > > The rel values they support include next, previous (not prev), start > and end. They have a note next to each saying "This value is pending > IETF registration". Does that mean they've actually started some kind > of registration process or they're just hoping to do so at some point > in the future? > > Another issue worth noting is that their example RSS feed is also > using atom:link to provide this functionality. > > Robert Sayre wrote: > >> No, but Amazon OpenSearch has been threatening to register it, FWIW. :) > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 13:41:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQ74o-0005yD-F9 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:41:10 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA01156 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:41:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DHWtNa059565; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:32:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9DHWtcK059564; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:32:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mX1.myOutlookonline.com (mx1.MyOutlookOnline.com [69.25.74.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DHWsx0059516 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:32:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from byrne@sixapart.com) Received: from be022.mail.lan ([10.109.209.122]) by mX1.myOutlookonline.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:32:49 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5D01C.21934A59" Subject: Signifying a Complete Feed Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:32:48 -0400 Message-ID: <E77DF28A12028844BECD228870BEDA3E280B2D@be022.mail.lan> Thread-Topic: Signifying a Complete Feed Thread-Index: AcXQHCD25xL6Oy06TVqafI+hpzPRbA== From: "Byrne Reese" <byrne@sixapart.com> To: "Syntax Atom" <atom-syntax@imc.org> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Oct 2005 17:32:49.0237 (UTC) FILETIME=[21A9E050:01C5D01C] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5D01C.21934A59 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone know of an extension or mechanism that can indicate whether a given feed is a complete representation of the content it encompasses, or is just a summary? =20 Here is the use case: =20 * Both LiveJournal and TypePad give users the option of not publishing the complete content of their posts inside their feed. In stead, we publish a summary of the post in the <summary> element. That's logical enough. We see there being value however in being able to communicate to the reader that the contents represented by an <entry> element is not a complete representation of that entry. =20 Is there an existing mechanism for this anywhere? An extension perhaps? =20 Byrne Reese Manager, Platform Technology http://www.sixapart.com/pronet/ =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5D01C.21934A59 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)"> <style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Wingdings; panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;} @font-face {font-family:"Trebuchet MS"; panose-1:2 11 6 3 2 2 2 2 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} p.MsoAutoSig, li.MsoAutoSig, div.MsoAutoSig {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} span.EmailStyle17 {mso-style-type:personal-compose; font-family:Arial; color:windowtext;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} /* List Definitions */ @list l0 {mso-list-id:882860804; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:-788496198 -1694988616 67698691 67698693 67698689 = 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693;} @list l0:level1 {mso-level-start-at:0; mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:\F0B7; mso-level-tab-stop:.5in; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-.25in; font-family:Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;} ol {margin-bottom:0in;} ul {margin-bottom:0in;} --> </style> </head> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple> <div class=3DSection1> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>Does anyone know of an extension or mechanism that = can indicate whether a given feed is a complete representation of the = content it encompasses, or is just a summary?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>Here is the use case:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <ul style=3D'margin-top:0in' type=3Ddisc> <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Both LiveJournal and = TypePad give users the option of <i><span = style=3D'font-style:italic'>not</span></i> publishing the complete content of their posts inside their feed. = In stead, we publish a summary of the post in the <summary> = element. That’s logical enough. We see there being value however in = being able to communicate to the reader that the contents represented by = an <entry> element is not a complete representation of that = entry.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li> </ul> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>Is there an existing mechanism for this anywhere? An extension perhaps?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 face=3D"Trebuchet MS"><span = style=3D'font-size: 11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS"'>Byrne = Reese<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 face=3D"Trebuchet MS"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS"'>Manager, Platform = Technology</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 face=3D"Trebuchet MS"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet = MS"'>http://www.sixapart.com/pronet/<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> </body> </html> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5D01C.21934A59-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 13:46:26 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQ79u-0007dd-OL for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:46:26 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA01492 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:46:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DHdZJ8061854; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:39:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9DHdZYe061853; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:39:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mcom.com (c3po.aoltw.net [64.236.137.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DHdX09061792 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:39:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jpanzer@aol.net) Received: from [10.169.186.1] (sera-10-169-186-1.nscp.aoltw.net [10.169.186.1]) by mcom.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id j9DHdPU04233; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:39:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <434E9BD1.1070808@aol.net> Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:39:29 -0700 From: John Panzer <jpanzer@aol.net> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0RC1 (Windows/20041201) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de> CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: more than one content element? References: <233ee76a0510120254h6f9c3514l@mail.gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV10B0D48744BF93AD89BF6BE7A0@phx.gbl> <20051013091931.GC4030@klangraum> <BAY106-DAV236B089E74CEB7118BC2EDBE7A0@phx.gbl> <434E893D.8070104@aol.net> <20051013171419.GB8832@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20051013171419.GB8832@klangraum> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------020008010409080702090101" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020008010409080702090101 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id NAA01492 A. Pagaltzis wrote: >* John Panzer <jpanzer@aol.net> [2005-10-13 18:45]: > =20 > >>If I recall, I believe this is because some people wanted to be >>able to package multiple pieces of content together in a single >>entry, and other people did not want to have to imply a >>requirement for MIME multipart parsing as pat of the Atom >>format specification. >> =20 >> > >And in retrospect, I think this was a mistake. F.ex. a while ago >we had someone asking why he isn=E2=80=99t able to publish mailing list >archives as a feed with entries containing the original message >as a message/rfc822 payload, and indeed there=E2=80=99s no good reason >he can=E2=80=99t. He just can=E2=80=99t. > >(This would have been a nice use case: stick the original message >into atom:content and put a version rendered as HTML into >atom:summary. I have to say I am liking this >atom:summary/atom:content dichotomy more and more with every >passing day.) > >The right thing, I *think*, would have been for Atom Format to >say that an Atom processor MAY decode envelopes (translation: >don=E2=80=99t hold your breath), and for Atom Protocol to say the server >MUST NOT decode envelopes (translation: if I ship a >message/rfc822 payload, the server simply stores it as such). > >As is, the only option is to stick the blob into an enclosure, >inlined though the backdoor by using a data: URI. > =20 > Well, you can pass them around by reference with content@src. I think. >Regards, > =20 > --------------020008010409080702090101 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id NAA01492 <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta content=3D"text/html;charset=3DUTF-8" http-equiv=3D"Content-Type"= > </head> <body bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" text=3D"#000000"> A. Pagaltzis wrote: <blockquote cite=3D"mid20051013171419.GB8832@klangraum" type=3D"cite"> <pre wrap=3D"">* John Panzer <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D= "mailto:jpanzer@aol.net"><jpanzer@aol.net></a> [2005-10-13 18:45]: </pre> <blockquote type=3D"cite"> <pre wrap=3D"">If I recall, I believe this is because some people wan= ted to be able to package multiple pieces of content together in a single entry, and other people did not want to have to imply a requirement for MIME multipart parsing as pat of the Atom format specification. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=3D""><!----> And in retrospect, I think this was a mistake. F.ex. a while ago we had someone asking why he isn=E2=80=99t able to publish mailing list archives as a feed with entries containing the original message as a message/rfc822 payload, and indeed there=E2=80=99s no good reason he can=E2=80=99t. He just can=E2=80=99t. (This would have been a nice use case: stick the original message into atom:content and put a version rendered as HTML into atom:summary. I have to say I am liking this atom:summary/atom:content dichotomy more and more with every passing day.) The right thing, I *think*, would have been for Atom Format to say that an Atom processor MAY decode envelopes (translation: don=E2=80=99t hold your breath), and for Atom Protocol to say the server MUST NOT decode envelopes (translation: if I ship a message/rfc822 payload, the server simply stores it as such). As is, the only option is to stick the blob into an enclosure, inlined though the backdoor by using a data: URI. </pre> </blockquote> Well, you can pass them around by reference with content@src.=C2=A0 I thi= nk.<br> <blockquote cite=3D"mid20051013171419.GB8832@klangraum" type=3D"cite"> <pre wrap=3D""> Regards, </pre> </blockquote> <br> </body> </html> --------------020008010409080702090101-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 14:13:52 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQ7aS-0001MA-6y for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:13:52 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA03466 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DI6toN071092; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:06:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9DI6t6a071091; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:06:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.21]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9DI6s4T071054 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:06:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 13 Oct 2005 18:06:48 -0000 Received: from xdsl-87-78-46-123.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [87.78.46.123] by mail.gmx.net (mp034) with SMTP; 13 Oct 2005 20:06:48 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 20:06:56 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: more than one content element? Message-ID: <20051013180656.GA9169@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <233ee76a0510120254h6f9c3514l@mail.gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV10B0D48744BF93AD89BF6BE7A0@phx.gbl> <20051013091931.GC4030@klangraum> <BAY106-DAV236B089E74CEB7118BC2EDBE7A0@phx.gbl> <434E893D.8070104@aol.net> <20051013171419.GB8832@klangraum> <434E9BD1.1070808@aol.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <434E9BD1.1070808@aol.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id OAA03466 * John Panzer <jpanzer@aol.net> [2005-10-13 19:40]: > Well, you can pass them around by reference with content@src. > I think. By the letter of the spec, but not by the spirit. But that=E2=80=99s beside the point, since if you=E2=80=99re going to poi= nt to an external resource, you can and should use an enclosure for the purpose, which has no restrictions on the content anyway. The reasoning of the restriction regarding atom:content is to avoid burdening Atom processors with having to decode MIME envelopes. It wouldn=E2=80=99t make any sense to apply that only to inline payloads, but not to remote content, since they are semantically identical. So by spirit, the spec does not. By letter, it doesn=E2=80=99t forbid it, because the type of representation returned by the server when retrieveing remote content is not realistically enforcable. Thus, the rules are =E2=80=A2 If @src is present, then @type SHOULD also be. =E2=80=A2 But @type MUST NOT be a composite type. Ever. =E2=80=A2 However in the presence of @src, @type is only a hint. That means you can omit the @type (and get complaints) or just outright lie about it (and people will have to deal). In either case, though, the consumer=E2=80=99s behaviour upon processing your feed is undefined, so you don=E2=80=99t gain anything. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/> From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 14:19:52 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQ7gG-0002Lw-IE for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:19:52 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA03681 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:19:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DID3b1072958; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:13:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9DID3wf072957; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:13:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.21]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9DID1p1072907 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:13:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 13 Oct 2005 18:12:55 -0000 Received: from xdsl-87-78-46-123.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [87.78.46.123] by mail.gmx.net (mp002) with SMTP; 13 Oct 2005 20:12:55 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 20:13:04 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de> To: Syntax Atom <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: Signifying a Complete Feed Message-ID: <20051013181304.GB9169@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Syntax Atom <atom-syntax@imc.org> References: <E77DF28A12028844BECD228870BEDA3E280B2D@be022.mail.lan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <E77DF28A12028844BECD228870BEDA3E280B2D@be022.mail.lan> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id OAA03681 * Byrne Reese <byrne@sixapart.com> [2005-10-13 19:40]: > In stead, we publish a summary of the post in the <summary> > element. That's logical enough. We see there being value > however in being able to communicate to the reader that the > contents represented by an <entry> element is not a complete > representation of that entry. Without atom:content, an atom:entry is not a complete representation of a resource. Is there any problem I=E2=80=99m missing? Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/> From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 14:27:16 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQ7nQ-0005FF-HN for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:27:16 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA03972 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:27:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DIJuxn075245; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:19:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9DIJujW075244; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:19:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mX1.myOutlookonline.com (mx1.MyOutlookOnline.com [69.25.74.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DIJtw1075206 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:19:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from byrne@sixapart.com) Received: from be022.mail.lan ([10.109.209.122]) by mX1.myOutlookonline.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:19:50 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5D022.B3152FCD" Subject: Re: draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-01.txt Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:19:48 -0400 Message-ID: <E77DF28A12028844BECD228870BEDA3E280B38@be022.mail.lan> Thread-Topic: Re: draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-01.txt Thread-Index: AcXQIrJVqmIctMe1SyeUfwldRuEftg== From: "Byrne Reese" <byrne@sixapart.com> To: <atom-syntax@imc.org> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Oct 2005 18:19:50.0309 (UTC) FILETIME=[B3274D50:01C5D022] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5D022.B3152FCD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Six Apart is looking to develop an experimental implementation of the Feed Thread extension for Atom. However, I have a few questions: =20 I see this extension as a logical place to list all feedback (both comments and trackbacks). However, I don't see a way for the extension to differentiate between the two types of feedback an entry may receive. Does anyone know of a way to achieve that? =20 =20 Byrne Reese Manager, Platform Technology http://www.sixapart.com/pronet/ =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5D022.B3152FCD Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)"> <style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Wingdings; panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;} @font-face {font-family:"Trebuchet MS"; panose-1:2 11 6 3 2 2 2 2 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} p.MsoAutoSig, li.MsoAutoSig, div.MsoAutoSig {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} pre {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New";} span.EmailStyle17 {mso-style-type:personal-compose; font-family:Arial; color:windowtext;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} /* List Definitions */ @list l0 {mso-list-id:126627307; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:-572886392 -1972349600 67698691 67698693 67698689 = 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693;} @list l0:level1 {mso-level-start-at:0; mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:\F0B7; mso-level-tab-stop:.5in; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-.25in; font-family:Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;} ol {margin-bottom:0in;} ul {margin-bottom:0in;} --> </style> </head> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple> <div class=3DSection1> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>Six Apart is looking to develop an experimental = implementation of the Feed Thread extension for Atom. However, I have a few = questions:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <pre><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I see this extension as a = logical place to list all feedback (both comments and trackbacks). = However, I don’t see a way for the extension to differentiate = between the two types of feedback an entry may receive. Does anyone know = of a way to achieve that?</span></font><o:p></o:p></pre> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 face=3D"Trebuchet MS"><span = style=3D'font-size: 11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS"'>Byrne = Reese<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 face=3D"Trebuchet MS"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS"'>Manager, Platform = Technology</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 face=3D"Trebuchet MS"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet = MS"'>http://www.sixapart.com/pronet/<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> </body> </html> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5D022.B3152FCD-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 14:37:56 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQ7xk-0007oy-L1 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:37:56 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA04438 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:37:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DIVboe080305; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:31:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9DIVbrl080304; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:31:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf01.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.68]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DIVanw080242 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:31:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.6.196.169]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3D0D6A057D; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 20:31:30 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <434EA808.5090700@cegetel.net> Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 20:31:36 +0200 From: Thomas Broyer <t.broyer@cegetel.net> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.4 (Windows/20050908) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Byrne Reese <byrne@sixapart.com> Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-01.txt References: <E77DF28A12028844BECD228870BEDA3E280B38@be022.mail.lan> In-Reply-To: <E77DF28A12028844BECD228870BEDA3E280B38@be022.mail.lan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id OAA04438 Byrne Reese wrote: > > Six Apart is looking to develop an experimental implementation of the=20 > Feed Thread extension for Atom. However, I have a few questions: > > I see this extension as a logical place to list all feedback (both comm= ents and trackbacks). However, I don=92t see a way for the extension to d= ifferentiate between the two types of feedback an entry may receive. Does= anyone know of a way to achieve that? I'd say that =AB If a comment uses an atom:link[@rel=3D"alternate"] or an=20 atom:content[@src], it is considered a "remote comment" (similar to=20 trackback/postback). If using atom:link to link to the remote resource,=20 the content might be included in atom:content as well. Remote comments=20 should provide an atom:summary. If a comment has no atom:link[@rel=3D"alternate"] and no=20 atom:content/@src, it is a "local comment" (comment added on an entry,=20 similar to "comment submission HTML forms"). Local comments must use=20 atom:content and shouldn't use atom:summary. =BB (see http://www.imc.org/atom-protocol/mail-archive/msg01384.html for the=20 complete discussion) --=20 Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 14:56:39 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQ8Fr-0004M3-Dm for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:56:39 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA05169 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:56:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DIm0LE087778; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:48:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9DIm087087777; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:48:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc14.comcast.net (sccrmhc14.comcast.net [204.127.202.59]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DIlxXq087746 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:48:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc14) with SMTP id <2005101318474101400n89s8e>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 18:47:47 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: <20051013180656.GA9169@klangraum> References: <233ee76a0510120254h6f9c3514l@mail.gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV10B0D48744BF93AD89BF6BE7A0@phx.gbl> <20051013091931.GC4030@klangraum> <BAY106-DAV236B089E74CEB7118BC2EDBE7A0@phx.gbl> <434E893D.8070104@aol.net> <20051013171419.GB8832@klangraum> <434E9BD1.1070808@aol.net> <20051013180656.GA9169@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <8F22B2C3-CCAE-4F1E-A2BC-E48409AF9B5B@geckotribe.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy <antone@geckotribe.com> Subject: Re: more than one content element? Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:47:38 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Oct 13, 2005, at 12:06 PM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > * John Panzer <jpanzer@aol.net> [2005-10-13 19:40]: >> Well, you can pass them around by reference with content@src. >> I think. > By the letter of the spec, but not by the spirit. I just ran through the discussion of this very question on the mailing list[1], and though it looks like allowing composite types in remote content had pretty good support, that doesn't appear to have been translated into a Pace, and obviously, no language specifically allowing it got into the spec document. Thus, it looks like the prohibition from section 4.1.3.1 stands, and that you're right that the only way you could do it without breaking the rules outright would be by ignoring the SHOULD (have content/@type when using content/@src), which would certainly be contrary to the "spirit" of the spec as it stands. [1] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg15949.html From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 15:09:52 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQ8Se-00071L-8q for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:09:52 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA05701 for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:09:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DJ2jfX093865; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:02:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9DJ2jDI093864; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:02:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.21]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9DJ2h7l093819 for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:02:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 13 Oct 2005 19:02:38 -0000 Received: from xdsl-87-78-46-123.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [87.78.46.123] by mail.gmx.net (mp028) with SMTP; 13 Oct 2005 21:02:38 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:02:46 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de> To: Byrne Reese <byrne@sixapart.com> Cc: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> Subject: Re: Signifying a Complete Feed Message-ID: <20051013190246.GA9230@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Byrne Reese <byrne@sixapart.com>, Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org> References: <E77DF28A12028844BECD228870BEDA3E280B3F@be022.mail.lan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <E77DF28A12028844BECD228870BEDA3E280B3F@be022.mail.lan> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> * Byrne Reese <byrne@sixapart.com> [2005-10-13 20:55]: > No I suppose not. But there are edge cases where people may not > include content in a post. They may simply use the title... in > maintaining a list of links for example. But I suppose there is > a difference between: > > <entry> > <title>foo > > > And > > > foo > > > > I think that is clear enough. That is exactly correct. If you want to ship a complete representation, you ship an atom:entry, and if the resource is empty, then that atom:content is empty. If the atom:entry has no atom:content, then that always means that it is a partial representation only. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 15:25:30 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQ8hm-0004Af-Cy for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:25:30 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA06531 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:25:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DJJbce098723; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:19:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9DJJbKD098722; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:19:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DJJZQS098666 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:19:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id q18so193852qba for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:19:29 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=pZtqJwvHzVV8J81lm19UyX0QoHwJVEaGnWFkY4iuJnXeMc8IOTIIZmeJU05EacXfq4ct7zB5KDnZ71TqpA7Uqs2o5jbb9eEllv3EtFH+pK5ntYZ6cgC4RkHp00hlVnmCtT4CBL/w0njl+tHCpjEGwcXlsgBaVCtXSiz9bBrxukY= Received: by 10.65.137.3 with SMTP id p3mr34724qbn; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:19:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.75.18 with HTTP; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:19:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3f1451f50510131219p3146c2d8vf96e85ce5914a293@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:19:29 -0400 From: Joe Gregorio To: James M Snell Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Cc: Syntax Atom In-Reply-To: <4349E8C1.7030109@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <6543D8BF-09B2-4C03-9721-8779BA024C39@mnot.net> <2E63E549-A052-47E2-9A22-B5E7DF1FF286@bblfish.net> <22791896-0151-4023-874E-B1F4AC8C95E8@bblfish.net> <3f1451f50510091202m55af1d4ct5d0bf7ee7c1b52df@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510091303k38785cc0w493b1b11f8b0d149@mail.gmail.com> <4349E8C1.7030109@gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9DJJaQS098710 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/10/05, James M Snell wrote: > > I've been considering asking the Opensearch folks if they would be > willing to separate their next/previous/first/last link relations out to > a separate spec that could be made a working group draft. The paging > functionality they offer provides a solution to paging in the protocol > and are generally useful across a broad variety of feed application > cases. Regardless, it would be very good to see these registered. +1 -joe -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 15:51:37 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQ973-0002tX-12 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:51:37 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA07918 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:51:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DJff18009358; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:41:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9DJffZ5009357; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:41:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.205]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DJfe7N009350 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:41:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id m21so24569qbe for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:41:40 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=R+ygueiBpENBXgxXcaTvVvPRavGIke+sgp2uEAEZr2XPgXAq3EEHkUDiFxg6N++1EOLA658JweZSXK2zJ6TAma4h1aIUkncKrt9eOBJTqSMOQG7N4A2k1G7XCt5PQ554WCI23XNBwc+W1kcgLPlK/HqadcCLsZ1atjAUHztJWeM= Received: by 10.64.193.1 with SMTP id q1mr55486qbf; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:41:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e11sm2450923qbc.2005.10.13.12.41.39; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:41:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <434EB86A.1050803@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:41:30 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thomas Broyer CC: Byrne Reese , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-01.txt References: <434EA808.5090700@cegetel.net> In-Reply-To: <434EA808.5090700@cegetel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id PAA07918 Thomas Broyer wrote: > > Byrne Reese wrote: > >> >> Six Apart is looking to develop an experimental implementation of the=20 >> Feed Thread extension for Atom. However, I have a few questions: >> >> I see this extension as a logical place to list all feedback (both=20 >> comments and trackbacks). However, I don=92t see a way for the=20 >> extension to differentiate between the two types of feedback an entry=20 >> may receive. Does anyone know of a way to achieve that? > > I'd say that > > =AB If a comment uses an atom:link[@rel=3D"alternate"] or an=20 > atom:content[@src], it is considered a "remote comment" (similar to=20 > trackback/postback). If using atom:link to link to the remote=20 > resource, the content might be included in atom:content as well.=20 > Remote comments should provide an atom:summary. > If a comment has no atom:link[@rel=3D"alternate"] and no=20 > atom:content/@src, it is a "local comment" (comment added on an entry,=20 > similar to "comment submission HTML forms"). Local comments must use=20 > atom:content and shouldn't use atom:summary. =BB > > (see http://www.imc.org/atom-protocol/mail-archive/msg01384.html for=20 > the complete discussion) > +1 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 15:57:28 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQ9Ci-0004SE-17 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:57:28 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA09147 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:57:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DJoBrb012459; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:50:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9DJoBRl012458; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:50:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mX1.myOutlookonline.com (mx1.MyOutlookOnline.com [69.25.74.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DJoAe3012432 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:50:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from byrne@sixapart.com) Received: from be022.mail.lan ([10.109.209.122]) by mX1.myOutlookonline.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:50:05 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Feed History -04 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:50:03 -0400 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Feed History -04 Thread-Index: AcXNUWvNikQ+58+hT4+pS7j28Ab2LQC3dvaA From: "Byrne Reese" To: "James M Snell" , "James Holderness" Cc: "Syntax Atom" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Oct 2005 19:50:05.0269 (UTC) FILETIME=[4EB8A050:01C5D02F] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9DJoAe3012453 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit +1 -----Original Message----- From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of James M Snell Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 9:06 PM To: James Holderness Cc: Syntax Atom Subject: Re: Feed History -04 I've been considering asking the Opensearch folks if they would be willing to separate their next/previous/first/last link relations out to a separate spec that could be made a working group draft. The paging functionality they offer provides a solution to paging in the protocol and are generally useful across a broad variety of feed application cases. Regardless, it would be very good to see these registered. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 16:22:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQ9aa-0002Ei-Di for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:22:08 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA15143 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:22:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DKGSDE020819; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:16:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9DKGRNl020818; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:16:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.197]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DKGRdL020812 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:16:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id m21so30696qbe for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:16:27 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=JoBBInp8MOIOfILw7Rp6HntfSfXUoDWrYn1dDunLFawjQ5Y8ZGFTA+l18DlLMmCgT5dGRxTR1ZtzLAVJg/0xUREV7r+H8pxTV20Xh7SfHiYjOSEUlI3BeHwB25Z+ACCF2NJz/odF+SKlsGBm3LXEsBEc80BgNzdRj0RbNhstZMs= Received: by 10.65.43.3 with SMTP id v3mr69049qbj; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:16:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e19sm5693569qba.2005.10.13.13.16.25; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:16:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <434EC08C.6040108@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:16:12 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Byrne Reese CC: Syntax Atom Subject: Re: Signifying a Complete Feed References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id QAA15143 Using Mark Nottingham's Feed History extension, you could do=20 false Byrne Reese wrote: > Does anyone know of an extension or mechanism that can indicate=20 > whether a given feed is a complete representation of the content it=20 > encompasses, or is just a summary? > > Here is the use case: > > * Both LiveJournal and TypePad give users the option of /not/ > publishing the complete content of their posts inside their > feed. In stead, we publish a summary of the post in the > element. That=92s logical enough. We see there being > value however in being able to communicate to the reader that > the contents represented by an element is not a complete > representation of that entry. > > Is there an existing mechanism for this anywhere? An extension perhaps? > > Byrne Reese > > Manager, Platform Technology > > http://www.sixapart.com/pronet/ > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 16:32:40 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQ9km-000699-Od for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:32:40 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA15765 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:32:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DKNPCq023233; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:23:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9DKNPPh023232; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:23:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.21]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9DKNOTG023199 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:23:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 13 Oct 2005 20:23:18 -0000 Received: from xdsl-87-78-46-123.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [87.78.46.123] by mail.gmx.net (mp023) with SMTP; 13 Oct 2005 22:23:18 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 22:23:26 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Atom Comments Extension Message-ID: <20051013202326.GB9230@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <431FC0A9.1080109@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <431FC0A9.1080109@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id QAA15765 Hi James, * James M Snell [2005-09-08 06:45]: > If anyone has any further comments on the draft, please let me > know. I am alarmed that this draft does *not even once* explicitly mention the fact that idrefs are expected to be derived from Atom Entry IDs. No particular interpretation of @idref=E2=80=99s content is prescribed at all. I think this is a terrible mistake. If consumers cannot have a uniform expectation of the meaning of the @idref value, there is no way for an Atom producer to know how to express a particular notion. I am uncomfortably reminded of RSS. If we do want consumers to have a uniform expectation of the meaning of such a value, then people who decide to stick something else in there will fail to interoperate with the majority of consumers. In other words, this is an obvious case for a SHOULD-level requirement. So, I believe the draft as it stands is seriously lacking because it misses one crucial sentence in the section 3 paragraph that deals with inReplyToNonDereferenceable. As to *what* the SHOULD-level requirement should be, I think there will be little argument that the ID of an Atom Entry is it. This would mean inReplyToNonDereferenceable is mainly reserved for replies to Atom Entries, and replies to other types of entities are relegated to inReplyToDereferenceable. I believe it is sensible to legislate this segregation further by saying that inReplyToDereferenceable SHOULD NOT be used to reply to entities which have an Atom Entry representation. PS.: a minor editorial niggle: > [2. Notational Conventions] >=20 > In this specification, "head section" refers to the children > of a feed's document-wide metadata container; e.g., the > child elements of the atom:feed element in an Atom Feed > Document. I believe this sentence should end with =E2=80=9Cother than atom:entry=E2= =80=9D to remove any ambiguity. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 16:42:35 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQ9uM-0001Ao-TI for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:42:35 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA16197 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:42:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DKbcWC028225; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:37:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9DKbcOf028224; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:37:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.fondantfancies.com ([69.10.132.130]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DKbbZb028217 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:37:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dtcd@mac.com) Received: from [I?@IPv6:::1] (69.10.132.130 [69.10.132.130]) by mail.fondantfancies.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B54F2106DB for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:37:35 +0100 (BST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: <20051013190246.GA9230@klangraum> References: <20051013190246.GA9230@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Graham Subject: Re: Signifying a Complete Feed Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:37:30 +0100 To: atom-syntax X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 13 Oct 2005, at 8:02 pm, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > If you want to ship a complete representation, you ship an > atom:entry, and if the resource is empty, then that atom:content > is empty. > > If the atom:entry has no atom:content, then that always means > that it is a partial representation only. > Point to any text in the spec that backs this up. Graham From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 17:01:42 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQACr-0006xz-TO for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:01:42 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA17045 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:01:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DKpJiY033351; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:51:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9DKpJqH033350; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:51:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.201]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DKpIs9033343 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:51:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 8so382039nzo for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:51:18 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=qzAyByiTShQQeB3SVuLdNCwZENU/3J1sxjju5fXUpxW2J+4BT4wQOCX1GwTRwggXQmn8eurdTCTIIqAr44hybiK58E2dsNY4JFP0J9Zn74hFwVjt+0q8byOUj405N9//DktFDnV7c/DS7ZUSzbFGAMvuAevbgqK8w0kpCyaIouw= Received: by 10.36.65.5 with SMTP id n5mr2375874nza; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.12.28 with HTTP; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:51:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c50510131351wec752e3g867b56b6ee468a04@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:51:18 -0400 From: Robert Sayre To: Graham Subject: Re: Signifying a Complete Feed Cc: atom-syntax In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <20051013190246.GA9230@klangraum> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9DKpJs9033344 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/13/05, Graham wrote: > Point to any text in the spec that backs this up. The spec says only "The 'atom:content' element either contains or links to the content of the entry." Any assertion that there is no other content to be had is not testable, and therefore rightly excluded from the spec. I don't see what harm the proposed extension could do, but it doesn't sound like something I would implement. What's the benefit? Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 17:15:28 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQAQC-0002N1-Ew for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:15:28 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA18187 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:15:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DL9Pw5039979; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:09:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9DL9P7e039978; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:09:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav13.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.85]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DL9OEZ039953 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:09:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:09:21 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV13.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:09:21 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: References: <233ee76a0510120254h6f9c3514l@mail.gmail.com> <20051013091931.GC4030@klangraum> <434E893D.8070104@aol.net> <20051013171419.GB8832@klangraum> Subject: Re: more than one content element? Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 22:09:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Oct 2005 21:09:21.0668 (UTC) FILETIME=[61C18440:01C5D03A] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id RAA18187 > John Panzer wrote: >> If I recall, I believe this is because some people wanted to be >> able to package multiple pieces of content together in a single >> entry, and other people did not want to have to imply a >> requirement for MIME multipart parsing as pat of the Atom >> format specification. Ugh. Sometimes I just don't get these decisions. Since when does allowing= =20 something imply that it is REQUIRED? Following that reasoning, any MIME t= ype=20 that isn't expressly forbidden is now REQUIRED to be supported. Of course that's insane. Implementers will decide which MIME types to=20 support based on market needs, as has always been the case (cf. email=20 clients and newsreaders). With Atom, however, composite MIME types have b= een=20 (quite unnecessarily IMO) excluded from their list of choices. A. Pagaltzis wrote: > The right thing, I *think*, would have been for Atom Format to > say that an Atom processor MAY decode envelopes (translation: > don=E2=80=99t hold your breath), and for Atom Protocol to say the serve= r > MUST NOT decode envelopes (translation: if I ship a > message/rfc822 payload, the server simply stores it as such). Agreed. If you're worried about an implied requirement you can always add= a=20 warning: "Feed producers should be aware that Atom Processors may not=20 process all such types. In particular an Atom Processor is not required t= o=20 process composite types." Or something to that effect. That way you've explicitly covered your ass while leaving the format open= to=20 the needs of the market. If a feed producer decided they absolutely had t= o=20 use a composite type in the atom:content, a non-supporting processor coul= d=20 still fallback to the summary (since that is REQUIRED when the type isn't= =20 text or xml). IMHO. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 17:31:33 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQAfl-00085h-2P for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:31:33 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA18995 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:31:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DLKB3r044010; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:20:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9DLKB5m044009; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:20:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mX1.myOutlookonline.com (mx1.MyOutlookOnline.com [69.25.74.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DLKB3e044000 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:20:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from byrne@sixapart.com) Received: from be022.mail.lan ([10.109.209.122]) by mX1.myOutlookonline.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:20:05 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Signifying a Complete Feed Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:20:04 -0400 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Signifying a Complete Feed Thread-Index: AcXQOchYAHl+hSRAQZyEwMBXbkN1hgAAbwcg From: "Byrne Reese" To: "Robert Sayre" , "Graham" Cc: "atom-syntax" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Oct 2005 21:20:05.0896 (UTC) FILETIME=[E1BEE880:01C5D03B] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9DLKB3e044004 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If only to make the nature of a feed, or state of a feed more deterministic and less ambiguous...? Nottingham's Feed History achieves this objective for me. I *knew* I had read something about this somewhere. :) -----Original Message----- From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Robert Sayre Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 1:51 PM To: Graham Cc: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Signifying a Complete Feed On 10/13/05, Graham wrote: > Point to any text in the spec that backs this up. The spec says only "The 'atom:content' element either contains or links to the content of the entry." Any assertion that there is no other content to be had is not testable, and therefore rightly excluded from the spec. I don't see what harm the proposed extension could do, but it doesn't sound like something I would implement. What's the benefit? Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 17:50:43 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQAyI-0004Og-2G for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:50:43 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA19853 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:50:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DLh4pq051642; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:43:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9DLh4NB051641; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:43:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav8.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.80]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DLh45J051614 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:43:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:42:58 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV8.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:42:58 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Syntax Atom" References: <434EC08C.6040108@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Signifying a Complete Feed Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 22:42:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Oct 2005 21:42:58.0809 (UTC) FILETIME=[1410CE90:01C5D03F] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My understanding was that if fh:incremental was false the feed document should be considered a complete replacement for any previous document you may have received. This would be for things like top 10 lists. I believe the question being asked here is actually about the entries themselves not being complete. James M Snell wrote: > Using Mark Nottingham's Feed History extension, you could do > false > > Byrne Reese wrote: > >> Does anyone know of an extension or mechanism that can indicate whether a >> given feed is a complete representation of the content it encompasses, or >> is just a summary? From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 18:04:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQBBT-0000yR-Th for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 18:04:19 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA20654 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 18:04:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DLuIho056145; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:56:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9DLuIcF056144; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:56:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.200]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DLuGDp056137 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:56:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id q12so202371qbq for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:56:16 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=kyhlBd9AprXVTNNnzKaYltCLNxOVUxE/XFTi3qrZfx8/bxPCbjfoJRxB3k6LXILKanF/2zE/sMarOO5eJ1fUZE74xTQoi96SSm9O9htU3oo+eq8u1eUCgLQ/RrXsRIPzy9IbbVK+Ky3NaQAxZdMrzsQjuWLFLuSM7+1y7kJ00Ew= Received: by 10.65.242.3 with SMTP id u3mr744021qbr; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:56:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e19sm1623193qbe.2005.10.13.14.56.15; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:56:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <434ED7F7.8080902@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:56:07 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Holderness CC: Syntax Atom Subject: Re: Signifying a Complete Feed References: <434EC08C.6040108@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ah, missed that, you're right. There is no way of indicating whether or not a feed is a full-content feed vs. a summary feed beyond the presence (or lack thereof) of the atom:content element. James Holderness wrote: > > My understanding was that if fh:incremental was false the feed > document should be considered a complete replacement for any previous > document you may have received. This would be for things like top 10 > lists. > > I believe the question being asked here is actually about the entries > themselves not being complete. > > James M Snell wrote: > >> Using Mark Nottingham's Feed History extension, you could do >> false >> >> Byrne Reese wrote: >> >>> Does anyone know of an extension or mechanism that can indicate >>> whether a given feed is a complete representation of the content it >>> encompasses, or is just a summary? >> > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 18:13:30 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQBKM-0004Pl-Bi for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 18:13:30 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA21392 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 18:13:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DM6Vlh060214; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:06:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9DM6URq060213; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:06:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav9.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.81]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DM6Ujh060180 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:06:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:06:24 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV9.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 22:06:24 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "atom-syntax" References: <20051013190246.GA9230@klangraum> Subject: Re: Signifying a Complete Feed Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 23:06:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Oct 2005 22:06:24.0835 (UTC) FILETIME=[5A1F5930:01C5D042] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham wrote: > On 13 Oct 2005, at 8:02 pm, A. Pagaltzis wrote: >> If you want to ship a complete representation, you ship an >> atom:entry, and if the resource is empty, then that atom:content >> is empty. >> >> If the atom:entry has no atom:content, then that always means >> that it is a partial representation only. > > Point to any text in the spec that backs this up. "4.2.13 The "atom:summary" element is a Text construct that conveys a short summary, abstract, or excerpt of an entry. " To me, that implies that there exists a resource somewhere that is a more complete representation of what is being provided in the summary. If there is no atom:content element then the entry can't possibly contain that full representation. Surely then that would make it partial representation? In reality though I've seen feeds with atom:content elements that wouldn't be considered complete by any stretch of the imagination. I've also seen entries with no atom:content where the full text is included in the atom:summary. For an Atom processor there are really no guarantees about anything regardless of what the spec may or may not say. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 19:03:39 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQC6t-0004wb-LV for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 19:03:39 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA28649 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 19:03:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DMrYSW079992; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:53:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9DMrYiE079991; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:53:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DMrTnS079930 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:53:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A91F53D39A; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 18:53:29 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <4349E8C1.7030109@gmail.com> References: <6543D8BF-09B2-4C03-9721-8779BA024C39@mnot.net> <2E63E549-A052-47E2-9A22-B5E7DF1FF286@bblfish.net> <22791896-0151-4023-874E-B1F4AC8C95E8@bblfish.net> <3f1451f50510091202m55af1d4ct5d0bf7ee7c1b52df@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510091303k38785cc0w493b1b11f8b0d149@mail.gmail.com> <4349E8C1.7030109@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: James Holderness , Syntax Atom Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:53:25 -0700 To: James M Snell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been considering moving feed history over to atom:link, but wanted to check with people who are currently using / referring to it, as well as with the RSS communities. Please give me a little time. On 09/10/2005, at 9:06 PM, James M Snell wrote: > > I've been considering asking the Opensearch folks if they would be > willing to separate their next/previous/first/last link relations > out to a separate spec that could be made a working group draft. > The paging functionality they offer provides a solution to paging > in the protocol and are generally useful across a broad variety of > feed application cases. Regardless, it would be very good to see > these registered. > > - James > > James Holderness wrote: > > > >> >> In case anyone is interested, the OpenSearch Response draft can be >> found here: >> >> http://opensearch.a9.com/spec/opensearchresponse/1.1/ >> >> The rel values they support include next, previous (not prev), >> start and end. They have a note next to each saying "This value is >> pending IETF registration". Does that mean they've actually >> started some kind of registration process or they're just hoping >> to do so at some point in the future? >> >> Another issue worth noting is that their example RSS feed is also >> using atom:link to provide this functionality. >> >> Robert Sayre wrote: >> >> >> >>> No, but Amazon OpenSearch has been threatening to register it, >>> FWIW. :) >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > -- Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist Office of the CTO BEA Systems -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 19:29:13 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQCVd-0004PR-Iy for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 19:29:13 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA03476 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 19:29:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DNIiL3092899; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:18:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9DNIhgJ092888; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:18:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.201]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9DNId2o092876 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:18:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id c8so98156qbc for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:18:39 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Rk29ew5C+kld6tmyWkNBxPOyYTB13oaZhvnTEk910lEaohDrMXYfLkULm538H/jWqEonNd4qyCxOnR8YsM5fIK2sK42I/O5E7wzdoqHjYakxDMFJlhBHFHNVU60DtK8D57i1RioC/uLVe6UUX3LMGV4SMJX5fFX1mafQd3w/+Pc= Received: by 10.65.138.11 with SMTP id q11mr1452605qbn; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:18:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e18sm338068qba.2005.10.13.16.18.38; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:18:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <434EEB45.9060405@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:18:29 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham CC: James Holderness , Syntax Atom Subject: Re: Feed History -04 References: <6543D8BF-09B2-4C03-9721-8779BA024C39@mnot.net> <2E63E549-A052-47E2-9A22-B5E7DF1FF286@bblfish.net> <22791896-0151-4023-874E-B1F4AC8C95E8@bblfish.net> <3f1451f50510091202m55af1d4ct5d0bf7ee7c1b52df@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510091303k38785cc0w493b1b11f8b0d149@mail.gmail.com> <4349E8C1.7030109@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Excellent. If this works out, there is an opportunity to merge the paging behavior of Feed History, OpenSearch and APP collections into a single set of paging link relations (next/previous/first/last). Mark Nottingham wrote: > I've been considering moving feed history over to atom:link, but > wanted to check with people who are currently using / referring to > it, as well as with the RSS communities. Please give me a little time. > > > On 09/10/2005, at 9:06 PM, James M Snell wrote: > > >> >> I've been considering asking the Opensearch folks if they would be >> willing to separate their next/previous/first/last link relations >> out to a separate spec that could be made a working group draft. >> The paging functionality they offer provides a solution to paging in >> the protocol and are generally useful across a broad variety of feed >> application cases. Regardless, it would be very good to see these >> registered. >> >> - James >> >> James Holderness wrote: >> >> >> >>> >>> In case anyone is interested, the OpenSearch Response draft can be >>> found here: >>> >>> http://opensearch.a9.com/spec/opensearchresponse/1.1/ >>> >>> The rel values they support include next, previous (not prev), >>> start and end. They have a note next to each saying "This value is >>> pending IETF registration". Does that mean they've actually started >>> some kind of registration process or they're just hoping to do so >>> at some point in the future? >>> >>> Another issue worth noting is that their example RSS feed is also >>> using atom:link to provide this functionality. >>> >>> Robert Sayre wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> No, but Amazon OpenSearch has been threatening to register it, >>>> FWIW. :) >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist > Office of the CTO BEA Systems > > > > -- > Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 22:08:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQEzS-00057U-Mm for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 22:08:10 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA10131 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 22:08:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9E1wiPq039943; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 18:58:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9E1wipO039942; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 18:58:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.11]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9E1wfBL039918 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 18:58:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] ([203.30.247.18] verified) by ironclad.net.au (Stalker SMTP Server 1.7) with ESMTP id S.0000946519 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:58:39 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:58:36 +1000 Subject: Re: Feed History -04 From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <434EEB45.9060405@gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 14/10/05 9:18 AM, "James M Snell" wrote: > Excellent. If this works out, there is an opportunity to merge the > paging behavior of Feed History, OpenSearch and APP collections into a > single set of paging link relations (next/previous/first/last). 'first' or 'start'? Do we need to define what 'first' means though? I recall a dissenting opinion on the wiki that the 'first' entry could be at either end of the list, which could surprise some. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 23:09:56 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQFxE-0007xf-68 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 23:09:56 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA12733 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 23:09:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9E31Mlx056230; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 20:01:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9E31M5E056229; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 20:01:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [63.240.76.22]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9E31L6o056213 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 20:01:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <2005101403011401200non9ae>; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 03:01:15 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:01:14 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Oct 13, 2005, at 7:58 PM, Eric Scheid wrote: > On 14/10/05 9:18 AM, "James M Snell" wrote: > > >> Excellent. If this works out, there is an opportunity to merge the >> paging behavior of Feed History, OpenSearch and APP collections >> into a >> single set of paging link relations (next/previous/first/last). >> > > 'first' or 'start'? > > Do we need to define what 'first' means though? I recall a dissenting > opinion on the wiki that the 'first' entry could be at either end > of the > list, which could surprise some. Yeah, that's a good question. Maybe calling them "top" and "bottom" would work better. Considering that the convention is to put the newest entry at the top of a feed document, "top" might be more intuitively understandable as being the new end. You might also rename "next" and "previous" (or is it "previous" and "next"?) to "down" and "up". There's SOME chance of that getting confused with hierarchical levels, but I could live with that. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 13 23:37:42 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQGO6-0007yg-8H for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 23:37:42 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA13712 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 23:37:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9E3NCGm061624; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 20:23:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9E3NC3J061623; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 20:23:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.21]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9E3NAgm061583 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 20:23:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 14 Oct 2005 03:23:05 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-225-148.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.225.148] by mail.gmx.net (mp031) with SMTP; 14 Oct 2005 05:23:05 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 05:23:13 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Message-ID: <20051014032313.GA17591@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * Antone Roundy [2005-10-14 05:10]: > On Oct 13, 2005, at 7:58 PM, Eric Scheid wrote: > >Do we need to define what 'first' means though? I recall a > >dissenting opinion on the wiki that the 'first' entry could be > >at either end of the list, which could surprise some. > > Yeah, that's a good question. Maybe calling them "top" and > "bottom" would work better. Considering that the convention > is to put the newest entry at the top of a feed document, > "top" might be more intuitively understandable as being the > new end. You might also rename "next" and "previous" (or is > it "previous" and "next"?) to "down" and "up". There's SOME > chance of that getting confused with hierarchical levels, but > I could live with that. 'inaugural' and 'latest'? :-) Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 00:11:05 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQGuP-0001gt-7a for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 00:11:05 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA15311 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 00:11:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9E41qjF069106; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:01:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9E41qER069105; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:01:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.199]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9E41oP5069086 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:01:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id q18so280765qba for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:01:50 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=GsPUm3/kFihCL9+KEsgFKfUNU8iNdNkWMwdsb+hU5V4A7Ew/PEkNnl4evC6Ek3d00TXzb9ORUzJeKJdIhYBiZD8V5vtEcClx7K6let8DdMBqqA9uMxdTfX+okozQvFEZ8qTgcunLeSeQYr4eAnbkeDqeAyjJecVlrmOSOf8jk2g= Received: by 10.65.97.15 with SMTP id z15mr390980qbl; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:01:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.75.18 with HTTP; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:01:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3f1451f50510132101t2e0cd7b9w72278004b117427f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 00:01:50 -0400 From: Joe Gregorio To: Eric Scheid Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Cc: Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <434EEB45.9060405@gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9E41pP5069094 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/13/05, Eric Scheid wrote: > > On 14/10/05 9:18 AM, "James M Snell" wrote: > > > Excellent. If this works out, there is an opportunity to merge the > > paging behavior of Feed History, OpenSearch and APP collections into a > > single set of paging link relations (next/previous/first/last). > > 'first' or 'start'? > > Do we need to define what 'first' means though? I recall a dissenting > opinion on the wiki that the 'first' entry could be at either end of the > list, which could surprise some. Eric, It's like deja-vu all over again. http://bitworking.org/news/Atom_Auto_Sub_How_To :) -joe -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 00:22:52 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQH5n-0006S4-VP for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 00:22:52 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA15998 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 00:22:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9E4Fjkc071806; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:15:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9E4Fj3f071805; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:15:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.11]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9E4FfVP071780 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:15:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] ([203.30.247.18] verified) by ironclad.net.au (Stalker SMTP Server 1.7) with ESMTP id S.0000946830 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:15:38 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:15:36 +1000 Subject: Re: Feed History -04 From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3f1451f50510132101t2e0cd7b9w72278004b117427f@mail.gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 14/10/05 2:01 PM, "Joe Gregorio" wrote: > Eric, > It's like deja-vu all over again. > > http://bitworking.org/news/Atom_Auto_Sub_How_To > > :) I'd forgotten about that, I was only remembering the wiki. I still think it odd that one could traverse both "prev" and "next" from the "start". In the context of paging link relations (first/next/prev/last) I would've thought that 'first' and 'last' are boundaries, and only the 'last' boundary would shift over time as more is added. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 07:50:38 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQO58-0001gO-QU for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 07:50:38 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA04410 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 07:50:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EBhXSP053721; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 04:43:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9EBhXQN053720; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 04:43:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.199]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EBhVUC053711 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 04:43:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 8so474548nzo for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 04:43:31 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=C9JJ+/jzNZygJFX8T9w4Sy8DxPbmoHH+Ys/8ZnuMKzTNAKw3PQKo+WpCFL2kjSy9nyJ9hM1eOx8qGPgpL6cSG9eAvnQAyYoyGAPLdrLZaRZIuHQG5lR6/4/lGXWYZgpmv6aKTQ2BKiK05AxL689O9/E6YUI4/0RIyFFjI7PprxA= Received: by 10.36.141.9 with SMTP id o9mr534624nzd; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 04:43:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.158.11 with HTTP; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 04:43:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0510140443x4ddd067bk6bb9a7a9be3ec35b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:43:31 +0200 From: Danny Ayers To: Atom Syntax Subject: Spec wording bug? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9EBhWUC053715 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In draft-ietf-atompub-format-11 under 4.2.7 The "atom:link" Element, compare and contrast: [[ 4.2.7.4 The "hreflang" Attribute The "hreflang" attribute's content describes the language of the resource pointed to by the href attribute. ... 4.2.7.6 The "length" Attribute The "length" attribute indicates an advisory length of the linked content in octets; it is a hint about the content length of the representation returned when the IRI in the href attribute is mapped to a URI and dereferenced. ]] I believe "the language of the resource" for hreflang makes no sense - it will be the *representations* that are associated with languages, and "the" implies a single language - there may be more than one. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 10:56:36 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQQz6-0005OA-MR for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:56:36 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA16731 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:56:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EEmuaw004402; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 07:48:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9EEmuV8004401; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 07:48:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ussjmh01.bea.com (ussjmh01.bea.com [63.96.162.5]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EEmsa1004385 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 07:48:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from markn@bea.com) Received: from ussjfe02.amer.bea.com (ussjfe02.bea.com [172.16.120.52]) by ussjmh01.bea.com (Switch-3.0.5/Switch-3.0.0) with ESMTP id j9EEmbvX021110; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 07:48:38 -0700 Received: from USSFEX01.amer.bea.com ([10.32.0.56]) by ussjfe02.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Fri, 14 Oct 2005 07:48:37 -0700 Received: from [172.16.1.2] ([172.24.28.49]) by USSFEX01.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Fri, 14 Oct 2005 07:48:37 -0700 In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <67DAF474-DE19-4E89-8B8D-C16AE852552E@bea.com> Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 07:48:32 -0700 To: Antone Roundy X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Oct 2005 14:48:37.0384 (UTC) FILETIME=[5BEA2880:01C5D0CE] X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.2.0, Antispam-Data: 2005.9.9.24 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The approach I took in -04 was to say that the pseudo-ordering introduced by the mechanism was ONLY meaningful for the purposes of reconstituting the feed; it's still up to the feed itself to determine what the ordering of entries means (or doesn't). That avoids a lot of problems, although it does require some careful wording. Also -- I'd think that the "last" link is already covered by "self," no? If not, there's some pretty serious confusion about what 'self' means. On 13/10/2005, at 8:01 PM, Antone Roundy wrote: > > On Oct 13, 2005, at 7:58 PM, Eric Scheid wrote: > >> On 14/10/05 9:18 AM, "James M Snell" wrote: >> >> >> >>> Excellent. If this works out, there is an opportunity to merge the >>> paging behavior of Feed History, OpenSearch and APP collections >>> into a >>> single set of paging link relations (next/previous/first/last). >>> >>> >> >> 'first' or 'start'? >> >> Do we need to define what 'first' means though? I recall a >> dissenting >> opinion on the wiki that the 'first' entry could be at either end >> of the >> list, which could surprise some. >> > > Yeah, that's a good question. Maybe calling them "top" and > "bottom" would work better. Considering that the convention is to > put the newest entry at the top of a feed document, "top" might be > more intuitively understandable as being the new end. You might > also rename "next" and "previous" (or is it "previous" and "next"?) > to "down" and "up". There's SOME chance of that getting confused > with hierarchical levels, but I could live with that. > > > -- Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist Office of the CTO BEA Systems ________________________________________________________________________________ BEAWorld 2005: coming to a city near you. Everything you need for SOA and enterprise infrastructure success. Register now at http://www.bea.com/4beaworld London 11-12 Oct| Paris13-14 Oct| Prague18-19 Oct |Tokyo 25-26 Oct| Beijing 7-8 Dec From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 11:37:02 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQRcD-0006UW-7C for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:37:02 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA24455 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:36:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EFRdDi015793; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:27:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9EFRd77015792; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:27:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.11]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9EFRbdK015765 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:27:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] ([203.30.247.18] verified) by ironclad.net.au (Stalker SMTP Server 1.7) with ESMTP id S.0000948469 for ; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 01:27:35 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 01:27:34 +1000 Subject: Re: Feed History -04 From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <67DAF474-DE19-4E89-8B8D-C16AE852552E@bea.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 15/10/05 12:48 AM, "Mark Nottingham" wrote: > Also -- I'd think that the "last" link is already covered by "self," > no? If not, there's some pretty serious confusion about what 'self' > means. What if a magazine publishes articles only once per month, each month's entries are all in one feed document, each feed document with unique URIs, and the public 'self' URI simply redirects to the last feed document. That is: http://example.com/monthly/current.atom redirects to http://example.com/monthly/2005-10.atom Of course you can find the 'last' archive via the 'self' URI, but that doesn't make them the same thing. If you were paging through using 'next', how would you know you've reached the 'last' ... apart from running out of 'next' links, and apart from separately retrieving the 'self' URI and noting the eventual URI handed back so you can compare against the one in 'last'. Why would anyone want to know the 'last' link? One use case is that one could take note of the 'last' URI, and then later find out what the 'last' URI now is ... and if they are different then obviously more has been added and it's time to go fetch. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 11:59:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQRxb-0005Ex-KT for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:59:07 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA25890 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:59:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EFpwkF023054; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:51:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9EFpwiP023053; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:51:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.21]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9EFpvgb023002 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:51:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 14 Oct 2005 15:51:51 -0000 Received: from xdsl-81-173-170-141.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [81.173.170.141] by mail.gmx.net (mp020) with SMTP; 14 Oct 2005 17:51:51 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:52:00 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Message-ID: <20051014155200.GA5996@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <67DAF474-DE19-4E89-8B8D-C16AE852552E@bea.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id LAA25890 * Eric Scheid [2005-10-14 17:35]: > Why would anyone want to know the 'last' link? One use case is > that one could take note of the 'last' URI, and then later find > out what the 'last' URI now is ... and if they are different > then obviously more has been added and it's time to go fetch. If you really want this, don=E2=80=99t forget to to legislate this expectation. Otherwise some people may devise clever (or =E2=80=9Cclever=E2=80=9D) stuff which breaks this expectation. Your examp= le of breaking atom:link[@rel=3D'self']/@href =3D atom:link[@rel=3D'last']/@href is a perfect demonstration of how someone may do something legal that may break (na=C3=AFve?) expectations. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 12:15:36 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQSDY-0006lj-5l for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:15:36 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA27403 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:15:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EG95nm028582; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:09:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9EG95bY028581; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:09:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav8.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.80]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EG944M028565 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:09:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:09:04 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV8.phx.gbl with DAV; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:09:04 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Mark Nottingham" , "Antone Roundy" Cc: References: <67DAF474-DE19-4E89-8B8D-C16AE852552E@bea.com> Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:09:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Oct 2005 16:09:04.0449 (UTC) FILETIME=[9911D310:01C5D0D9] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Nottingham wrote: > The approach I took in -04 was to say that the pseudo-ordering introduced > by the mechanism was ONLY meaningful for the purposes of reconstituting > the feed; it's still up to the feed itself to determine what the ordering > of entries means (or doesn't). That avoids a lot of problems, although it > does require some careful wording. The ordering of the entries may not matter, but the ordering of the documents does. Starting with the active feed document, you need to know whether you should be following a series of "prev" links or "next" links in order to traverse the archives back through time. While your feed history spec used "prev" for that purpose, previous implementations of atom:link appear to have used "next". I can see the justification for both choices and don't particularly mind either way. However if the final decision is to go with "prev" rather than "next" I think there should at least be a note to the effect that there may be existing implementations of Atom 0.3 using "next". > Also -- I'd think that the "last" link is already covered by "self," no? > If not, there's some pretty serious confusion about what 'self' means. I was going to suggest that initially but I don't think it's strictly true. The spec says that "self" identifies a resource *equivalent* to the containing element. Considering that an archived document and the active feed document will quite likely have no entries in common I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim them equivalent. "Derived" would be a better relationship IMHO. Not that I care, mind you. Just pointing out that such a usage may conflict somewhat with the spec. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 12:32:54 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQSUI-0004jF-JA for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:32:54 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA28408 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:32:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EGMqj2035839; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:22:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9EGMpB9035835; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:22:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from motgate8.mot.com (motgate8.mot.com [129.188.136.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EGMomJ035823 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:22:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Brett.Lindsley@motorola.com) Received: from il06exr01.mot.com (il06exr01.mot.com [129.188.137.131]) by motgate8.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate7) with ESMTP id j9EGYQhl024022 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:34:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm66.ds.mot.com (de01exm66.am.mot.com [10.176.8.17]) by il06exr01.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j9EGWHZt006550 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:32:18 -0500 (CDT) x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Subject: RE: Feed History -04 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:22:26 -0400 Message-ID: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B032F@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> Thread-Topic: Feed History -04 Thread-Index: AcXQ2ocDn15wbfivSBCmsPm0xgofLQAAG+OQ From: "Lindsley Brett-ABL001" To: "James Holderness" , "Mark Nottingham" , "Antone Roundy" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9EGMomJ035829 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have a suggestion that may work. The issue of defining what is "prev" and "next" with respect to a time ordered sequence seems to be a problem. How about defining the link relationships in terms of time - such as "newer" and "older" or something like that. That way, the collection returned should be either "newer" (more recent updated time) or "older" (later updated time) with respect to the current collection doc. Brett Lindsley, Motorola Labs -----Original Message----- From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of James Holderness Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 11:09 AM To: Mark Nottingham; Antone Roundy Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Mark Nottingham wrote: > The approach I took in -04 was to say that the pseudo-ordering introduced > by the mechanism was ONLY meaningful for the purposes of reconstituting > the feed; it's still up to the feed itself to determine what the ordering > of entries means (or doesn't). That avoids a lot of problems, although it > does require some careful wording. The ordering of the entries may not matter, but the ordering of the documents does. Starting with the active feed document, you need to know whether you should be following a series of "prev" links or "next" links in order to traverse the archives back through time. While your feed history spec used "prev" for that purpose, previous implementations of atom:link appear to have used "next". I can see the justification for both choices and don't particularly mind either way. However if the final decision is to go with "prev" rather than "next" I think there should at least be a note to the effect that there may be existing implementations of Atom 0.3 using "next". > Also -- I'd think that the "last" link is already covered by "self," no? > If not, there's some pretty serious confusion about what 'self' means. I was going to suggest that initially but I don't think it's strictly true. The spec says that "self" identifies a resource *equivalent* to the containing element. Considering that an archived document and the active feed document will quite likely have no entries in common I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim them equivalent. "Derived" would be a better relationship IMHO. Not that I care, mind you. Just pointing out that such a usage may conflict somewhat with the spec. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 12:47:16 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQSiC-0001o6-0e for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:47:16 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA29858 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:47:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EGdLQN041116; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:39:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9EGdLas041115; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:39:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf01.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.68]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EGdKVm041075 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:39:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.6.170.25]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB6E459A043; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:39:12 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <434FDF36.8050903@cegetel.net> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:39:18 +0200 From: Thomas Broyer User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.4 (Windows/20050908) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lindsley Brett-ABL001 Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Feed History -04 References: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B032F@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> In-Reply-To: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B032F@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lindsley Brett-ABL001 wrote: > I have a suggestion that may work. The issue of defining what is "prev" > and "next" with respect to a time ordered sequence seems to be a > problem. How about defining the link relationships in terms of time - > such as "newer" and "older" or something like that. That way, the > collection returned should be either "newer" (more recent updated time) > or "older" (later updated time) with respect to the current collection > doc. Wouldn't it be "better" to share the same link relations between feeds sorted by date/time or some other "priority" (e.g. OpenSearch results)? -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 13:12:54 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQT6w-0003U1-F9 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:12:53 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA01074 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:12:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EH7qi4050713; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:07:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9EH7qpP050711; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:07:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [10.20.30.249] (dsl2-63-249-92-231.cruzio.com [63.249.92.231]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EH7mux050693; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:07:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd0510140443x4ddd067bk6bb9a7a9be3ec35b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f2ed5cd0510140443x4ddd067bk6bb9a7a9be3ec35b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:07:48 -0700 To: Danny Ayers , Atom Syntax From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: Spec wording bug? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At 1:43 PM +0200 10/14/05, Danny Ayers wrote: >In draft-ietf-atompub-format-11 under 4.2.7 The "atom:link" Element, >compare and contrast: > >[[ >4.2.7.4 The "hreflang" Attribute > > The "hreflang" attribute's content describes the language of the > resource pointed to by the href attribute. > >... > >4.2.7.6 The "length" Attribute > > The "length" attribute indicates an advisory length of the linked > content in octets; it is a hint about the content length of the > representation returned when the IRI in the href attribute is mapped > to a URI and dereferenced. >]] > >I believe "the language of the resource" for hreflang makes no sense - >it will be the *representations* that are associated with languages, I think that's being way too picky. It makes sense that content (the generic term) might have a language associated with it. >and "the" implies a single language - there may be more than one. That's true. And it matches the XML 1.0 spec exactly. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 13:19:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQTD1-0005uN-81 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:19:07 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA01419 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:18:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EHDuHl052634; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:13:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9EHDupM052632; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:13:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EHDth4052613 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:13:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (unknown [63.96.170.164]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 402593D416; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:13:38 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B032F@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> References: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B032F@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Syntax Atom Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:13:35 -0700 To: Lindsley Brett-ABL001 , James Holderness X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 14/10/2005, at 9:22 AM, Lindsley Brett-ABL001 wrote: > I have a suggestion that may work. The issue of defining what is > "prev" and "next" with respect to a time ordered sequence seems to > be a problem. How about defining the link relationships in terms of > time - such as "newer" and "older" or something like that. That > way, the collection returned should be either "newer" (more recent > updated time) or "older" (later updated time) with respect to the > current collection doc. A feed isn't necessarily a time-ordered sequence. Even a feed reconstructed using fh:prev (or a similar mechanism) could have its constituent parts generated on the fly, e.g., in response to a search query. > The ordering of the entries may not matter, but the ordering of the > documents does. Starting with the active feed document, you need to > know whether you should be following a series of "prev" links or > "next" links in order to traverse the archives back through time. > While your feed history spec used "prev" for that purpose, previous > implementations of atom:link appear to have used "next". I agree that it's important to honour the document order; that's what FH tries to do. I'm a little surprised to hear you say that people thought that this was previously 'next'; I'd never heard that (but will be happy to put a note in). > I was going to suggest that initially but I don't think it's > strictly true. The spec says that "self" identifies a resource > *equivalent* to the containing element. Considering that an > archived document and the active feed document will quite likely > have no entries in common I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim > them equivalent. "Derived" would be a better relationship IMHO. Hmm. Yeah, I see what you're saying. Actually, I think this is an opportunity -- we we define a new link relation to the subscription document, and specify that it can only occur in archive documents, it obviates the need for a separate fh:archive flag, which in turn means that you don't have to declare two namespaces to use fh in RSS archive documents -- which was one of the things making me reluctant to switch over to atom:link. How about: ? -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 13:25:50 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQTJV-0001A5-MO for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:25:50 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA01829 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:25:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EHJU8M054454; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:19:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9EHJUXB054453; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:19:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc14.comcast.net (sccrmhc14.comcast.net [204.127.202.59]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EHJTew054412 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:19:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc14) with SMTP id <2005101417192101400n75lae>; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:19:21 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd0510140443x4ddd067bk6bb9a7a9be3ec35b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f2ed5cd0510140443x4ddd067bk6bb9a7a9be3ec35b@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Spec wording bug? Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:19:18 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Oct 14, 2005, at 5:43 AM, Danny Ayers wrote: > I believe "the language of the resource" for hreflang makes no sense - > it will be the *representations* that are associated with languages, > and "the" implies a single language - there may be more than one. > If content negotiation might be used to select from among different languages (ie. if multiple representations are available from the same URI), then perhaps the hreflang attribute should be omitted. Were we to have allowed multiple languages to be specified in the same hreflang attribute to cover such cases, the wording would be incorrect, but since we didn't, I think it's correct as it is. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 13:33:37 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQTR3-0003eM-H2 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:33:37 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA02054 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:33:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EHSNKl057692; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:28:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9EHSNmG057690; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:28:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf01.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.68]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EHSMrd057593 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:28:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.6.170.25]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BE546A034E; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 19:28:17 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <434FEAB6.2070802@cegetel.net> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 19:28:22 +0200 From: Thomas Broyer User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.4 (Windows/20050908) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Syntax Atom Subject: Re: Feed History -04 References: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B032F@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id NAA02054 Mark Nottingham wrote: > How about: > > > > ? I always thought this was the role of @rel=3D"self" to give the URI you=20 should subscribe to, though re-reading the -11 it deals with "a resource=20 equivalent to the containing element". 1. Isn't "a resource equivalent to the containing element" the same as=20 "an alternate version of the resource described by the containing element= "? 2. Is the answer to 1. is no then what does "a resource equivalent =85"=20 mean? Is it really different than "the URI you should subscribe to" (at=20 least if @type=3D"application/atom+xml")? --=20 Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 13:33:55 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQTRL-0003gJ-Pr for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:33:55 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA02063 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:33:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EHQmJX057051; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:26:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9EHQmk8057050; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:26:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.193]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EHQlmx057033 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:26:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 8so514951nzo for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:26:47 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=mw3ksR65LtAhv7wwHCVQfMcQQx+sjS+kTyTU7niwWyxl9DZ/o2G0zUm+en2ocbLc9umi3HMaZd5FsZCD/IEtuQg95HLitHASvUnkWUh5dkuRMmWX9Zgu89Ivw51a4utKPsu6OR356zRUFMbUdR7HfFw/WUK9n7cupXWWPdftKhY= Received: by 10.36.75.9 with SMTP id x9mr3257164nza; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.12.28 with HTTP; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c50510141026i2825ea3ak28652ba1c112080@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:26:47 -0400 From: Robert Sayre To: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: Spec wording bug? Cc: Danny Ayers , Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <1f2ed5cd0510140443x4ddd067bk6bb9a7a9be3ec35b@mail.gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9EHQmmx057035 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/14/05, Paul Hoffman wrote: > >I believe "the language of the resource" for hreflang makes no sense - > >it will be the *representations* that are associated with languages, > > I think that's being way too picky. It makes sense that content (the > generic term) might have a language associated with it. What's the R in URI stand for? :) > >and "the" implies a single language - there may be more than one. > > That's true. And it matches the XML 1.0 spec exactly. I don't understand the second issue being raised here. Could someone try again? Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 13:44:26 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQTbV-000710-SX for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:44:26 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA02515 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:44:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EHa0Jk060303; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:36:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9EHa01R060297; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:36:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EHZxSV060274 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:35:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (unknown [63.96.170.164]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7D133D40B; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:35:58 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <434FEAB6.2070802@cegetel.net> References: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B032F@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> <434FEAB6.2070802@cegetel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Syntax Atom X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:35:56 -0700 To: Thomas Broyer X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9EHZxSV060276 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id NAA02515 That's what I thought too, but the words in the spec don't bear it =20 out; a "resource equivalent to the containing element" is a little =20 hard to interpret (there is no equivalence function for Web =20 resources, by definition), but it's a lot closer to "something you =20 dereference to get the same thing as what's in the containing =20 element" than to "something you dereference to get a potentially =20 completely different thing." Arguably, there is sometimes a use case for the current definition of =20 "self", so it's probably best to just define a new link relation. On 14/10/2005, at 10:28 AM, Thomas Broyer wrote: > Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> How about: >> >> >> >> ? >> > I always thought this was the role of @rel=3D"self" to give the URI =20 > you should subscribe to, though re-reading the -11 it deals with "a =20 > resource equivalent to the containing element". > > 1. Isn't "a resource equivalent to the containing element" the same =20 > as "an alternate version of the resource described by the =20 > containing element"? > 2. Is the answer to 1. is no then what does "a resource equivalent =20 > =85" mean? Is it really different than "the URI you should subscribe =20 > to" (at least if @type=3D"application/atom+xml")? > > --=20 > Thomas Broyer -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 13:45:57 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQTcy-0007ZR-4d for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:45:57 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA02555 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:45:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EHbpqG061014; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:37:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9EHbpOA061013; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:37:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EHbpuo060981 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:37:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2005101417374501300m6d0oe>; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:37:45 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: References: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B032F@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:37:44 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Oct 14, 2005, at 11:13 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > On 14/10/2005, at 9:22 AM, Lindsley Brett-ABL001 wrote: >> I have a suggestion that may work. The issue of defining what is >> "prev" and "next" with respect to a time ordered sequence seems to >> be a problem. How about defining the link relationships in terms >> of time - such as "newer" and "older" or something like that. That >> way, the collection returned should be either "newer" (more recent >> updated time) or "older" (later updated time) with respect to the >> current collection doc. > > A feed isn't necessarily a time-ordered sequence. Even a feed > reconstructed using fh:prev (or a similar mechanism) could have its > constituent parts generated on the fly, e.g., in response to a > search query. > The OpenSearch case mentioned by Thomas is what convinced me that terms related to temporal ordering aren't appropriate (what a pity, since "newer" and "older" are the perfect terms for time ordered sequences of feed documents!) "Previous" and "next" suffer from the fact that they could easily be interpreted differently in different use cases. For example, for OpenSearch results "pages", clearly "prev" points to the search results that come up "on top" and "next" to the lower results. But in a conventional syndication feed, "next" could easily be taken to mean either "the next batch of entries as you track back towards the beginning of time from where you started (which is usually going to be the growing end of the feed)", or "a batch of entries containing the entries that were published next after the ones in this batch." I'd have to look at the document to remind myself of which "next" means, because either makes just as much sense to me. Which brings me back to "top", "bottom", "up" and "down". In the OpenSearch case, it's clear which end the "top" results are going to be found. In the syndication feed case, the convention is to put the most recent entries at the "top". If you think of a feed as a stack, new entries are stacked on "top". The fact that these terms are less generic and flexible than "previous" and "next" is both an advantage and a disadvantage. I think the question is whether it's an advantage in a significant majority of cases or not. What orderings would those terms not work well for? Antone From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 14:02:04 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQTsZ-0004oG-VQ for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:02:04 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA03121 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:01:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EHqxbY066241; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:52:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9EHqx8O066239; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:52:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EHqx9P066228 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:52:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2005101417525301100g5dcpe>; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:52:53 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: <434FEAB6.2070802@cegetel.net> References: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B032F@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> <434FEAB6.2070802@cegetel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <99ECA494-8705-4F63-8E16-AD3D79D3A14A@geckotribe.com> From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:52:51 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9EHqx9P066234 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id OAA03121 On Oct 14, 2005, at 11:28 AM, Thomas Broyer wrote: > Mark Nottingham wrote: >> How about: >> >> >> >> ? >> > I always thought this was the role of @rel=3D"self" to give the URI =20 > you should subscribe to, though re-reading the -11 it deals with "a =20 > resource equivalent to the containing element". That's what some of us wanted it to be and thought it was intended to =20 be. The language that made it into the spec certainly falls short of =20 expressing what was in PaceFeedLink, which is the proposal that added =20 @rel=3D"self" [1]. > 1. Isn't "a resource equivalent to the containing element" the same =20 > as "an alternate version of the resource described by the =20 > containing element"? That's how I would read that language knowing nothing of the history =20 of that part of the spec. I think some people intended "equivalent" =20 to mean "it may not be a different copy of the same bits, but =20 whatever it is, it contains the same bits" (or at least the same code =20 points, if it happens to be transcoded). > 2. Is the answer to 1. is no then what does "a resource equivalent =20 > =85" mean? Is it really different than "the URI you should subscribe =20 > to" (at least if @type=3D"application/atom+xml")? I think what some people want that to mean is "here's a place you =20 could get the feed, but I'm not making any assertions regarding =20 whether it's preferable to get it from there or somewhere else." [1] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg15062.html From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 14:09:02 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQTzK-0007NN-Ga for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:09:02 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA03387 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:08:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EI0lTJ068867; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:00:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9EI0l34068866; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:00:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav10.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.82]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EI0kqT068851 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:00:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:00:46 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV10.phx.gbl with DAV; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:00:46 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Syntax Atom" References: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B032F@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 19:00:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Oct 2005 18:00:46.0242 (UTC) FILETIME=[33A64820:01C5D0E9] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Nottingham wrote: > I agree that it's important to honour the document order; that's what FH > tries to do. I'm a little surprised to hear you say that people thought > that this was previously 'next'; I'd never heard that (but will be happy > to put a note in). Mark Pilgrim's article on XML.com discussing the Atom Link Model: http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2004/06/16/dive.html I can't say I've seen it widely used, but there is at least one occurrence in the wild (Mark's archives). > Hmm. Yeah, I see what you're saying. Actually, I think this is an > opportunity -- we we define a new link relation to the subscription > document, and specify that it can only occur in archive documents, it > obviates the need for a separate fh:archive flag, which in turn means > that you don't have to declare two namespaces to use fh in RSS archive > documents -- which was one of the things making me reluctant to switch > over to atom:link. > > How about: > > Yeah, I think that's a great idea. I'm not sure about the name though. Would it not be better as a verb (say "subscribe") since the link is effectively providing you with a url with which you can subscribe to the feed. This seems to me more in line with the verb-based link relations being used in the Atom publishing protocol. Admittedly in this case the link could just as easily be interpreted as a passive pointer to a document rather than an operation as such. I'm not really arguing strongly either way. Just something to think about. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 14:36:33 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQUPx-0006zu-CO for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:36:33 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA04406 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:36:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EIS2Gc078179; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:28:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9EIS20p078178; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:28:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ussjmh01.bea.com (ussjmh01.bea.com [63.96.162.5]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EIS2aZ078170 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:28:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from markn@bea.com) Received: from ussjfe01.amer.bea.com (ussjfe01b.bea.com [172.16.120.57]) by ussjmh01.bea.com (Switch-3.0.5/Switch-3.0.0) with ESMTP id j9EIRpvl004521; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:27:59 -0700 Received: from USSFEX01.amer.bea.com ([10.32.0.56]) by ussjfe01.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:27:37 -0700 Received: from [172.16.1.2] ([172.24.28.49]) by USSFEX01.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:27:37 -0700 In-Reply-To: References: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B032F@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:27:34 -0700 To: Antone Roundy X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Oct 2005 18:27:37.0853 (UTC) FILETIME=[F43E9AD0:01C5D0EC] X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.2.0, Antispam-Data: 2005.10.14.21 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At first I really liked this proposal, but I think that the kind of confusion you're concerned about is unavoidable; the terms you refer to suffer "bottom-up" vs. "top-down." I think that defining the terms well and in relation to the subscription feed will help; after all, the terms don't surface in UIs, so it should be transparent. On 14/10/2005, at 10:37 AM, Antone Roundy wrote: > Which brings me back to "top", "bottom", "up" and "down". In the > OpenSearch case, it's clear which end the "top" results are going > to be found. In the syndication feed case, the convention is to > put the most recent entries at the "top". If you think of a feed > as a stack, new entries are stacked on "top". The fact that these > terms are less generic and flexible than "previous" and "next" is > both an advantage and a disadvantage. I think the question is > whether it's an advantage in a significant majority of cases or > not. What orderings would those terms not work well for? -- Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist Office of the CTO BEA Systems ________________________________________________________________________________ BEAWorld 2005: coming to a city near you. Everything you need for SOA and enterprise infrastructure success. Register now at http://www.bea.com/4beaworld London 11-12 Oct| Paris13-14 Oct| Prague18-19 Oct |Tokyo 25-26 Oct| Beijing 7-8 Dec From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 15:03:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQUpf-0007PC-8I for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:03:07 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA05333 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:03:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EItpYT089520; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:55:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9EItpAv089519; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:55:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from krusty.greenbytes.de (pd95b23e9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [217.91.35.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EItnpd089482 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:55:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stefan.eissing@greenbytes.de) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (H0de4.h.pppool.de [85.72.13.228]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by krusty.greenbytes.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F01E6934629 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:56:02 +0200 (CEST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) In-Reply-To: References: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B032F@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <2be05dea7cfd8c77cf5b851a11cda00b@greenbytes.de> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Stefan Eissing Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:55:46 +0200 To: Syntax Atom X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Am 14.10.2005 um 20:00 schrieb James Holderness: > Mark Nottingham wrote: >> Hmm. Yeah, I see what you're saying. Actually, I think this is an >> opportunity -- we we define a new link relation to the subscription >> document, and specify that it can only occur in archive documents, it >> obviates the need for a separate fh:archive flag, which in turn means >> that you don't have to declare two namespaces to use fh in RSS >> archive documents -- which was one of the things making me reluctant >> to switch over to atom:link. >> >> How about: >> >> > > Yeah, I think that's a great idea. I'm not sure about the name though. > Would it not be better as a verb (say "subscribe") since the link is > effectively providing you with a url with which you can subscribe to > the feed. This seems to me more in line with the verb-based link > relations being used in the Atom publishing protocol. > > Admittedly in this case the link could just as easily be interpreted > as a passive pointer to a document rather than an operation as such. > I'm not really arguing strongly either way. Just something to think > about. The idea is excellent. As for the naming sugar of the relation "head", "anchor" or "origin" could work also. //Stefan From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 15:32:27 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQVI3-0008I6-CP for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:32:27 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA06571 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:32:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EJNGZB099136; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:23:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9EJNGog099135; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:23:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EJNFQa099119 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:23:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 12so683476nzp for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:23:15 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=JAaLMMoM++SzsLJLSyu6jfia8hM0vxIeWRtMCIrSo/viq4nquAq2/+axyOL2Fl8/fCaFw4xH3UVNc8ooz6TIqN61MJker1LwhscRSPZJtzsA/qFOS2/AhWd8e3mtm+Ow92W6UU4FHG9SROVmZJOCH4nUxfmAgUg0JRwe2pulD2Q= Received: by 10.36.80.16 with SMTP id d16mr3904006nzb; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:23:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.158.11 with HTTP; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0510141223i18b3db5aydd2cf85615a65551@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:23:14 +0200 From: Danny Ayers To: Robert Sayre Subject: Re: Spec wording bug? Cc: Paul Hoffman , Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: <68fba5c50510141026i2825ea3ak28652ba1c112080@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <1f2ed5cd0510140443x4ddd067bk6bb9a7a9be3ec35b@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510141026i2825ea3ak28652ba1c112080@mail.gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9EJNFQa099123 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/14/05, Robert Sayre wrote: > I don't understand the second issue being raised here. Could someone try again? Robert - sorry, I obviously wasn't very clear. I only wished to bring a single issue to the list's attention, the discrepancy between the wording of the spec on "hreflang", and what I believe to be its intended meaning in particular in terms of one of the cited references (RFC 3986). >4.2.7.4 The "hreflang" Attribute > > The "hreflang" attribute's content describes the language of the > resource pointed to by the href attribute. A resource in the sense of RFC 3986, as far as I can tell, may have multiple representations associated with any number of languages. As far as I'm aware, the only connection between the language(s) and the resource is through the representation(s). This view is reflected in the the other piece of the Atom spec I quoted: >4.2.7.6 The "length" Attribute > > The "length" attribute indicates an advisory length of the linked > content in octets; it is a hint about the content length of the > representation returned when the IRI in the href attribute is mapped > to a URI and dereferenced. >]] Antone - I could be wrong, but I don't think this is a content negotiation issue, simply that the wording munges the resource with its representation(s). I believe this inconsistent with the WebArch conceptual model assumed by the rest of the Atom spec, and actually inconsistent with that other definition inside the spec. Paul - as I understand it the content isn't identical with the resource. This distinction may appear picky, but given that the other definition quoted manages consistency with the referenced specs, it appears to be possible without much extra effort. I must confess I have no idea of the IETF line on where accuracy ends and pickiness begins, or what might be appropriate action under the process - on that I will happily defer to you. I'm afraid I don't know what you are referring here: DA: > >and "the" implies a single language - there may be more than one. > PH: > That's true. And it matches the XML 1.0 spec exactly. Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 16:18:01 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQW07-000245-AV for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:18:01 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA15823 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:17:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EK4PKt013932; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:04:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9EK4Piq013929; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:04:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mX1.myOutlookonline.com (mx1.MyOutlookOnline.com [69.25.74.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EK4L75013863 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:04:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from byrne@sixapart.com) Received: from be022.mail.lan ([10.109.209.122]) by mX1.myOutlookonline.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:04:14 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Feed History -04 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:04:14 -0400 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Feed History -04 Thread-Index: AcXQ7uIH9DtyW8w6TJKMfy7vKzPEXwAC1PEw From: "Byrne Reese" To: "Mark Nottingham" , "Antone Roundy" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Oct 2005 20:04:14.0982 (UTC) FILETIME=[739A4A60:01C5D0FA] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9EK4O75013921 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit +1 The meaning of these terms depends so much upon the feed it is being used within. That and your own mental model. If you visualize a feed like this: --- | | | | | | | -----Original Message----- From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Mark Nottingham Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 11:28 AM To: Antone Roundy Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Feed History -04 At first I really liked this proposal, but I think that the kind of confusion you're concerned about is unavoidable; the terms you refer to suffer "bottom-up" vs. "top-down." I think that defining the terms well and in relation to the subscription feed will help; after all, the terms don't surface in UIs, so it should be transparent. On 14/10/2005, at 10:37 AM, Antone Roundy wrote: > Which brings me back to "top", "bottom", "up" and "down". In the > OpenSearch case, it's clear which end the "top" results are going > to be found. In the syndication feed case, the convention is to > put the most recent entries at the "top". If you think of a feed > as a stack, new entries are stacked on "top". The fact that these > terms are less generic and flexible than "previous" and "next" is > both an advantage and a disadvantage. I think the question is > whether it's an advantage in a significant majority of cases or > not. What orderings would those terms not work well for? -- Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist Office of the CTO BEA Systems ________________________________________________________________________ ________ BEAWorld 2005: coming to a city near you. Everything you need for SOA and enterprise infrastructure success. Register now at http://www.bea.com/4beaworld London 11-12 Oct| Paris13-14 Oct| Prague18-19 Oct |Tokyo 25-26 Oct| Beijing 7-8 Dec From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 16:27:01 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQW8r-000132-0b for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:27:01 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA20347 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:26:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EKKLkx018937; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:20:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9EKKLmb018936; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:20:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mX1.myOutlookonline.com (mx1.MyOutlookOnline.com [69.25.74.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EKKKkJ018894 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:20:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from byrne@sixapart.com) Received: from be022.mail.lan ([10.109.209.122]) by mX1.myOutlookonline.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:20:14 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Feed History -04 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:20:15 -0400 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Feed History -04 Thread-Index: AcXQ7uIH9DtyW8w6TJKMfy7vKzPEXwADcHFA From: "Byrne Reese" To: "Mark Nottingham" , "Antone Roundy" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Oct 2005 20:20:14.0636 (UTC) FILETIME=[AF99DEC0:01C5D0FC] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9EKKLkJ018931 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I think that defining the terms well and in relation to the > subscription feed will help; after all, the terms don't surface in > UIs, so it should be transparent. +1 Maybe this goes without saying, but I think the spec needs to either: a) define these terms clearly and how they should be used and interpreted (in which case it doesn't matter what words we use), or b) provide a mechanism for the feed to define their meaning relative to the feed (perhaps James' FeedRank extension is relevant here?) - i.e. "this feed sorts items chronologically in ascending order." With that information, "next" and "previous" become more meaningful. Without either (a) or (b) then the meaning of whatever terms we choose will depend too much on the developer's mental model for feeds. For example, if you visualize a feed like this (e.g. a web page's chronologically sorted list): --- "top" | |- entry | |- entry | |- entry | --- "bottom" Then the terms "up" and "down" are quite meaningful, and "next" and "prev" a little ambiguous (am I top-down kinda guy, or a bottom-up?). Of course you then have to be clear to what "top" and "bottom" means. Then if you visualize feeds like this (like a linear timeline for example): |----|----|----|----| entry | entry entry Then "up" and "down" are the terms that become less meaningful. Yadda yadda yadda. My feeling is that erring on the side of more broadly applicable, and semantically well know terms like "next" and "previous" will be more useful to extensions wishing to extend the metaphor or model for their own purposes (the FeedRank extension comes to mind specifically). I can even see value for a feed to specify more information about its "result set": 10 21 30 55 /feed/entry/published ascending -----Original Message----- From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Mark Nottingham Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 11:28 AM To: Antone Roundy Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Feed History -04 At first I really liked this proposal, but I think that the kind of confusion you're concerned about is unavoidable; the terms you refer to suffer "bottom-up" vs. "top-down." I think that defining the terms well and in relation to the subscription feed will help; after all, the terms don't surface in UIs, so it should be transparent. On 14/10/2005, at 10:37 AM, Antone Roundy wrote: > Which brings me back to "top", "bottom", "up" and "down". In the > OpenSearch case, it's clear which end the "top" results are going > to be found. In the syndication feed case, the convention is to > put the most recent entries at the "top". If you think of a feed > as a stack, new entries are stacked on "top". The fact that these > terms are less generic and flexible than "previous" and "next" is > both an advantage and a disadvantage. I think the question is > whether it's an advantage in a significant majority of cases or > not. What orderings would those terms not work well for? -- Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist Office of the CTO BEA Systems ________________________________________________________________________ ________ BEAWorld 2005: coming to a city near you. Everything you need for SOA and enterprise infrastructure success. Register now at http://www.bea.com/4beaworld London 11-12 Oct| Paris13-14 Oct| Prague18-19 Oct |Tokyo 25-26 Oct| Beijing 7-8 Dec From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 16:53:34 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQWYY-0003jz-0F for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:53:34 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA24034 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:53:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EKe8Nf027873; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:40:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9EKe8pT027872; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:40:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.201]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EKe6Rg027808 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:40:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id q18so446880qba for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:40:01 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=i0Wqe+zlCBtzkWcqVbzGjoaby5zN6+zgZGEkodd6/zgofe7hPbvfwTt2pUQTCZh80qamF8x6ava67Z/3/li4KZzZLU+3GUL/ffeZhEkbLEn440ZtKWaOKOHRM3jYzkKeE5zU+Vmk6drGd3vRfMZmeKGaDcrGNcKIBdxoJHrH9zU= Received: by 10.65.52.20 with SMTP id e20mr47171qbk; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.75.18 with HTTP; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3f1451f50510141340s14d4f3ccne145e6dd71857fb1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:40:00 -0400 From: Joe Gregorio To: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B032F@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9EKe7Rg027867 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/14/05, Antone Roundy wrote: > > On Oct 14, 2005, at 11:13 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > On 14/10/2005, at 9:22 AM, Lindsley Brett-ABL001 wrote: > >> I have a suggestion that may work. The issue of defining what is > >> "prev" and "next" with respect to a time ordered sequence seems to > >> be a problem. How about defining the link relationships in terms > >> of time - such as "newer" and "older" or something like that. That > >> way, the collection returned should be either "newer" (more recent > >> updated time) or "older" (later updated time) with respect to the > >> current collection doc. > > > > A feed isn't necessarily a time-ordered sequence. Even a feed > > reconstructed using fh:prev (or a similar mechanism) could have its > > constituent parts generated on the fly, e.g., in response to a > > search query. > > > The OpenSearch case mentioned by Thomas is what convinced me that > terms related to temporal ordering aren't appropriate (what a pity, > since "newer" and "older" are the perfect terms for time ordered > sequences of feed documents!) > > "Previous" and "next" suffer from the fact that they could easily be > interpreted differently in different use cases. For example, for > OpenSearch results "pages", clearly "prev" points to the search > results that come up "on top" and "next" to the lower results. But in > a conventional syndication feed, "next" could easily be taken to mean > either "the next batch of entries as you track back towards the > beginning of time from where you started (which is usually going to > be the growing end of the feed)", or "a batch of entries containing > the entries that were published next after the ones in this batch." > I'd have to look at the document to remind myself of which "next" > means, because either makes just as much sense to me. True, but I don't think that means that the terms have to be abandoned, but that these examples need to be supported by spec text. That is, define 'next' as pointing to the next document in a series of documents, the whole series of documents containing a series of Atom Entries whose order is specific to the service providing it. -joe -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 17:00:17 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQWf2-0006kQ-D8 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:00:17 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA24393 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:00:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EKppvI032151; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:51:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9EKppUB032150; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:51:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.92]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EKpo4P032144 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:51:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gerph@gerph.org) Received: from dynamic-62-56-50-240.park-s46b.dslaccess.co.uk ([62.56.50.240] helo=buttercup.gerph.org) by anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net with esmtpa (AUTH gerph) (Exim 4.42) id 1EQWWi-000MT9-D1 for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:51:49 +0000 Received: by buttercup.gerph.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 13F28188D9A; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:51:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by buttercup.gerph.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7E50CD93 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:51:03 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:51:03 +0100 (BST) From: Justin Fletcher X-X-Sender: justin@buttercup.gerph.org To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Atom Comments Extension In-Reply-To: <20051013202326.GB9230@klangraum> Message-ID: References: <431FC0A9.1080109@gmail.com> <20051013202326.GB9230@klangraum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="-1463786496-1342189624-1129322995=:10760" Content-ID: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. ---1463786496-1342189624-1129322995=:10760 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=iso-8859-1; FORMAT=flowed Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > > Hi James, > > * James M Snell [2005-09-08 06:45]: >> If anyone has any further comments on the draft, please let me >> know. > > I am alarmed that this draft does *not even once* explicitly > mention the fact that idrefs are expected to be derived from Atom > Entry IDs. No particular interpretation of @idref=FF=FFs content is > prescribed at all. I believe that's because they're not necessarily expected to be derived=20 from Atom Entry IDs. The idref is dependant on the type of content being=20 referenced. For an application/atom+xml content type, the reference would= =20 be a Atom Entry ID. Other source documents than Atom may be used as thread= =20 references - otherwise the threading system would be limited to only=20 allowing Atom people to respond to Atom people. > I think this is a terrible mistake. > > If consumers cannot have a uniform expectation of the meaning of > the @idref value, there is no way for an Atom producer to know > how to express a particular notion. I am uncomfortably reminded > of RSS. If we do want consumers to have a uniform expectation of > the meaning of such a value, then people who decide to stick > something else in there will fail to interoperate with the > majority of consumers. > > In other words, this is an obvious case for a SHOULD-level > requirement. > > So, I believe the draft as it stands is seriously lacking because > it misses one crucial sentence in the section 3 paragraph that > deals with inReplyToNonDereferenceable. > > As to *what* the SHOULD-level requirement should be, I think > there will be little argument that the ID of an Atom Entry is it. If any additional wording is necessary, then it should be explicit that it= =20 only relates to the media type of 'application/atom+xml'. It is, in my=20 opinion, redundant to say this because ID reference for a=20 application/atom+xml document is the Atom Entry ID. Other media types=20 would use their own forms of identifiers. [snip] --=20 Gerph =2E.. I can see it, but it's only real when they hide me from the truth. ---1463786496-1342189624-1129322995=:10760-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 18:24:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQXyM-0007xu-KB for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:24:19 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA00313 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:24:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EMGFUB065508; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:16:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9EMGF53065505; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:16:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EMGEFH065499 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:16:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id q18so464429qba for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:16:14 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=qlUkHSiOzcOIXRYyxbWmyQ+aGb1DB0yXbnEz+58B/H4GAcdg+CyqzDNBJWja5qH08eGopNDgPwSufnjJbYN1xnXH5ZRq2xKnQkSGBlhjL0aG+DJEu1szQ/8L/IjuM0kLcud/DsU2S63LLWi1v4ExLX5T6UQM6Q2zK4K/M5fitmQ= Received: by 10.65.95.9 with SMTP id x9mr72997qbl; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e16sm6138589qbe.2005.10.14.15.16.13; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43502E2B.7080902@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:16:11 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham CC: Antone Roundy , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Feed History -04 References: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B032F@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The way I look at this is in terms of a single linked list of feeds. The ordering of the entries within those feeds is irrelevant. The individual linked feeds MAY be incremental (e.g. blog entries,etc) or may be complete (e.g. lists,etc). Simply because a feeds are linked, no assumption should be made as to whether or not the entries in those feeds share any form of ordered relationship. is the first feed in the linked list is the next feed in the linked list is the previous feed in the linked list is the last feed in the linked list. Terms like "top", "bottom", "up", "down", etc are meaningless in this model as they imply an ordering of the contents. For feed history, it would work something like: ... ... ... ... ... ... - James Mark Nottingham wrote: > > At first I really liked this proposal, but I think that the kind of > confusion you're concerned about is unavoidable; the terms you refer > to suffer "bottom-up" vs. "top-down." > > I think that defining the terms well and in relation to the > subscription feed will help; after all, the terms don't surface in > UIs, so it should be transparent. > > > On 14/10/2005, at 10:37 AM, Antone Roundy wrote: > >> Which brings me back to "top", "bottom", "up" and "down". In the >> OpenSearch case, it's clear which end the "top" results are going to >> be found. In the syndication feed case, the convention is to put >> the most recent entries at the "top". If you think of a feed as a >> stack, new entries are stacked on "top". The fact that these terms >> are less generic and flexible than "previous" and "next" is both an >> advantage and a disadvantage. I think the question is whether it's >> an advantage in a significant majority of cases or not. What >> orderings would those terms not work well for? > > > > -- > Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist > Office of the CTO BEA Systems > > ________________________________________________________________________________ > > BEAWorld 2005: coming to a city near you. Everything you need for SOA > and enterprise infrastructure success. > > > Register now at http://www.bea.com/4beaworld > > > London 11-12 Oct| Paris13-14 Oct| Prague18-19 Oct |Tokyo 25-26 Oct| > Beijing 7-8 Dec > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 18:35:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQY8q-0003VR-5m for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:35:09 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA00922 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:35:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EMSU5r073654; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:28:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9EMSUwq073653; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:28:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EMSTEc073644 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:28:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hjs@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 76398 invoked by uid 17064); 14 Oct 2005 22:28:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO localhost) ([127.0.0.1]) (envelope-sender ) by 127.0.0.1 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 14 Oct 2005 22:28:28 -0000 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:28:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Henry Story Reply-To: Henry Story To: James M Snell cc: Mark Nottingham , Antone Roundy , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Feed History -04 In-Reply-To: <43502E2B.7080902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051014152257.J7414@bblfish.net> References: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B032F@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> <43502E2B.7080902@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This looks good. Is the 'first' the feed document that changes, whereas 'next' and 'last' point to the archives? (in a feed history context?) Henry On Fri, 14 Oct 2005, James M Snell wrote: > The way I look at this is in terms of a single linked list of feeds. The > ordering of the entries within those feeds is irrelevant. The individual > linked feeds MAY be incremental (e.g. blog entries,etc) or may be complete > (e.g. lists,etc). Simply because a feeds are linked, no assumption should be > made as to whether or not the entries in those feeds share any form of > ordered relationship. > +1 > is the first feed in the linked list > is the next feed in the linked list > is the previous feed in the linked list > is the last feed in the linked list. > > Terms like "top", "bottom", "up", "down", etc are meaningless in this model > as they imply an ordering of the contents. > > For feed history, it would work something like: > > > ... > > > > ... > > > > ... > > > > > > ... > > > > ... > > > > ... > > > - James > > Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> >> At first I really liked this proposal, but I think that the kind of >> confusion you're concerned about is unavoidable; the terms you refer to >> suffer "bottom-up" vs. "top-down." >> >> I think that defining the terms well and in relation to the subscription >> feed will help; after all, the terms don't surface in UIs, so it should be >> transparent. >> >> >> On 14/10/2005, at 10:37 AM, Antone Roundy wrote: >> >>> Which brings me back to "top", "bottom", "up" and "down". In the >>> OpenSearch case, it's clear which end the "top" results are going to be >>> found. In the syndication feed case, the convention is to put the most >>> recent entries at the "top". If you think of a feed as a stack, new >>> entries are stacked on "top". The fact that these terms are less generic >>> and flexible than "previous" and "next" is both an advantage and a >>> disadvantage. I think the question is whether it's an advantage in a >>> significant majority of cases or not. What orderings would those terms >>> not work well for? >> >> >> >> -- >> Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist >> Office of the CTO BEA Systems >> >> ________________________________________________________________________________ >> BEAWorld 2005: coming to a city near you. Everything you need for SOA and >> enterprise infrastructure success. >> >> >> Register now at http://www.bea.com/4beaworld >> >> >> London 11-12 Oct| Paris13-14 Oct| Prague18-19 Oct |Tokyo 25-26 Oct| Beijing >> 7-8 Dec >> >> > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 18:47:34 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQYKs-00061m-4r for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:47:34 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA01458 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:47:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EMYbmc076509; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:34:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9EMYb8C076508; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:34:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.198]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9EMYa8j076493 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:34:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i28so603732nzi for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:34:36 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Eptr2NtB1arBljlZNVZ1ZKob6ralivmuGZMXSBkQZCX7JDy+psJ8gYkRsN8QT7d+9GpmYo+nTIoTbPwd6YwcBhUcj9z2LddSenOuK1lOh2K3XDnXPghxh2wr8yg3JzCJ/hfuWTbO8PnaUqH/76gDbQpAlL1rEPcA+l7wCwz95Eo= Received: by 10.36.251.49 with SMTP id y49mr130110nzh; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.12.28 with HTTP; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c50510141534m98ffb22h65fc3792a70c545f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:34:36 -0400 From: Robert Sayre To: James M Snell Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Cc: Mark Nottingham , Antone Roundy , atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <43502E2B.7080902@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B032F@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> <43502E2B.7080902@gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9EMYa8j076503 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/14/05, James M Snell wrote: > > The way I look at this is in terms of a single linked list of feeds. James is 100% right. Think of any feed as a google search result, ordered in terms of relevance. On your average blog, the newest post is always the most relevant :). I would support mnot's draft moving onto the standards track if it followed the linking scheme outlined by James. The "RSS way" of doing it could be kept alongside, if that's politically necessary. If Mark opts not to support atom:link, my support changes to silence, and I will go right ahead and implement the three link relations I need in my Atom implementations: next, prev, and profile. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 19:44:51 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQZEJ-0003nG-3T for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 19:44:51 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA05083 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 19:44:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9ENZUI5006092; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:35:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9ENZUxO006091; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:35:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.21]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9ENZSRm006045 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:35:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 14 Oct 2005 23:35:22 -0000 Received: from xdsl-81-173-170-141.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [81.173.170.141] by mail.gmx.net (mp015) with SMTP; 15 Oct 2005 01:35:22 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 01:35:32 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Message-ID: <20051014233532.GA13223@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B032F@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> <43502E2B.7080902@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <43502E2B.7080902@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * James M Snell [2005-10-15 00:25]: > Terms like "top", "bottom", "up", "down", etc are meaningless > in this model as they imply an ordering of the contents. head/tail? Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 19:48:28 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQZHn-0005U0-P7 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 19:48:28 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA05242 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 19:48:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9ENejZT008409; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:40:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9ENejAW008400; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:40:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.192]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9ENeiix008389 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:40:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id m21so270453qbe for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:40:44 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=lwEVS+j8TEJRfhfTE24dhLo6gTrw0DtKEeyicTgrOElZYR9kBhtmzmDBjdsnj8NO1iSr9ttEw8NAM9hchC20k4gugAJVMUgaGBC5GyeLew1Tyij9+oF0LKzolXAWnr+Q6tjy9KlS2/mP2oMJhVsF8sHdLy3NU1SDrPbdYO6QwPQ= Received: by 10.65.40.11 with SMTP id s11mr131224qbj; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id f15sm2189627qba.2005.10.14.16.40.42; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <435041F9.10500@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:40:41 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "A. Pagaltzis" CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Feed History -04 References: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B032F@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> <43502E2B.7080902@gmail.com> <20051014233532.GA13223@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20051014233532.GA13223@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What in the world is wrong with first and last? ;-) I just don't get it. A. Pagaltzis wrote: >* James M Snell [2005-10-15 00:25]: > > >>Terms like "top", "bottom", "up", "down", etc are meaningless >>in this model as they imply an ordering of the contents. >> >> > >head/tail? > >Regards, > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 20:06:25 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQZZB-0002Sa-Jn for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:06:25 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA05982 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:06:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9ENsNGB013862; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:54:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9ENsDmO013818; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:54:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ussjmh01.bea.com (ussjmh01.bea.com [63.96.162.5]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9ENrmNU013745 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:53:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from markn@bea.com) Received: from ussjfe02.amer.bea.com (ussjfe02.bea.com [172.16.120.52]) by ussjmh01.bea.com (Switch-3.0.5/Switch-3.0.0) with ESMTP id j9ENr7vX009621; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:53:08 -0700 Received: from USSFEX01.amer.bea.com ([10.32.0.56]) by ussjfe02.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:53:07 -0700 Received: from [172.16.1.2] ([172.24.28.122]) by USSFEX01.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:53:07 -0700 In-Reply-To: <43502E2B.7080902@gmail.com> References: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B032F@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> <43502E2B.7080902@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <3F85B178-0BF3-4974-9117-394FFAC54E74@bea.com> Cc: Antone Roundy , atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:53:00 -0700 To: James M Snell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Oct 2005 23:53:07.0416 (UTC) FILETIME=[6CC56D80:01C5D11A] X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.2.0, Antispam-Data: 2005.10.14.30 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Right. A few questions that pop up: 1) Is it a closed or open set? If it's open (and I think 99% of feeds are), what does "last" mean? My answer is that it's probably an open set, so "last" doesn't mean much that's useful (unless it's conflated with the subscription feed; see below). 2) What's the relationship between these feed documents and the feed document that people subscribe to? I think the subscription feed needs to be pinned to one end of the set (which is what FH does now). Otherwise, it becomes difficult to figure out whether you have the complete set or not by polling. On 14/10/2005, at 3:16 PM, James M Snell wrote: > > The way I look at this is in terms of a single linked list of > feeds. The ordering of the entries within those feeds is > irrelevant. The individual linked feeds MAY be incremental (e.g. > blog entries,etc) or may be complete (e.g. lists,etc). Simply > because a feeds are linked, no assumption should be made as to > whether or not the entries in those feeds share any form of ordered > relationship. > > is the first feed in the linked list > is the next feed in the linked list > is the previous feed in the linked list > is the last feed in the linked list. > > Terms like "top", "bottom", "up", "down", etc are meaningless in > this model as they imply an ordering of the contents. > > For feed history, it would work something like: > > > ... > > > > ... > > > > ... > > > > > > ... > > > > ... > > > > ... > > > - James > > Mark Nottingham wrote: > > >> >> At first I really liked this proposal, but I think that the kind >> of confusion you're concerned about is unavoidable; the terms you >> refer to suffer "bottom-up" vs. "top-down." >> >> I think that defining the terms well and in relation to the >> subscription feed will help; after all, the terms don't surface >> in UIs, so it should be transparent. >> >> >> On 14/10/2005, at 10:37 AM, Antone Roundy wrote: >> >> >>> Which brings me back to "top", "bottom", "up" and "down". In >>> the OpenSearch case, it's clear which end the "top" results are >>> going to be found. In the syndication feed case, the convention >>> is to put the most recent entries at the "top". If you think of >>> a feed as a stack, new entries are stacked on "top". The fact >>> that these terms are less generic and flexible than "previous" >>> and "next" is both an advantage and a disadvantage. I think the >>> question is whether it's an advantage in a significant majority >>> of cases or not. What orderings would those terms not work well >>> for? >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist >> Office of the CTO BEA Systems >> >> _____________________________________________________________________ >> ___________ >> BEAWorld 2005: coming to a city near you. Everything you need for >> SOA and enterprise infrastructure success. >> >> >> Register now at http://www.bea.com/4beaworld >> >> >> London 11-12 Oct| Paris13-14 Oct| Prague18-19 Oct |Tokyo 25-26 >> Oct| Beijing 7-8 Dec >> >> >> > > > -- Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist Office of the CTO BEA Systems From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 21:33:42 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQave-0008Fh-2R for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:33:42 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA09820 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:33:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9F1OMn4046486; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:24:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9F1OM2W046485; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:24:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ussjmh01.bea.com (ussjmh01.bea.com [63.96.162.5]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9F1OLNg046461 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:24:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from markn@bea.com) Received: from ussjfe01.amer.bea.com (ussjfe01b.bea.com [172.16.120.57]) by ussjmh01.bea.com (Switch-3.0.5/Switch-3.0.0) with ESMTP id j9F1OGvZ026162; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:24:17 -0700 Received: from USSFEX01.amer.bea.com ([10.32.0.56]) by ussjfe01.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:23:49 -0700 Received: from [172.16.1.2] ([172.24.28.122]) by USSFEX01.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:23:48 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3F85B178-0BF3-4974-9117-394FFAC54E74@bea.com> References: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B032F@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> <43502E2B.7080902@gmail.com> <3F85B178-0BF3-4974-9117-394FFAC54E74@bea.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Antone Roundy , Syntax Atom Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:23:47 -0700 To: James M Snell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Oct 2005 01:23:48.0853 (UTC) FILETIME=[181ED250:01C5D127] X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.2.0, Antispam-Data: 2005.10.14.30 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This leads to: Subscription feed: - can contain link/@rel="prev", OR - can contain fh:incremental = "false" Archive feed: - can contain link/@rel="prev" and/or link/@rel="next" - can contain link/@rel="subscribe" (effectively gives you "last") - link/@rel="subscribe" has a semantic of "if you want to subscribe to this feed, use the linked document, not this one." The reconstruction algorithm is pretty much the same as in -04. The only dangling point is "first." I'm not especially against it, but what's the use case? On 14/10/2005, at 4:53 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > Right. A few questions that pop up: > > 1) Is it a closed or open set? If it's open (and I think 99% of > feeds are), what does "last" mean? > > My answer is that it's probably an open set, so "last" doesn't mean > much that's useful (unless it's conflated with the subscription > feed; see below). > > 2) What's the relationship between these feed documents and the > feed document that people subscribe to? > > I think the subscription feed needs to be pinned to one end of the > set (which is what FH does now). Otherwise, it becomes difficult to > figure out whether you have the complete set or not by polling. > > > On 14/10/2005, at 3:16 PM, James M Snell wrote: > > >> >> The way I look at this is in terms of a single linked list of >> feeds. The ordering of the entries within those feeds is >> irrelevant. The individual linked feeds MAY be incremental (e.g. >> blog entries,etc) or may be complete (e.g. lists,etc). Simply >> because a feeds are linked, no assumption should be made as to >> whether or not the entries in those feeds share any form of >> ordered relationship. >> >> is the first feed in the linked list >> is the next feed in the linked list >> is the previous feed in the linked list >> is the last feed in the linked list. >> >> Terms like "top", "bottom", "up", "down", etc are meaningless in >> this model as they imply an ordering of the contents. >> >> For feed history, it would work something like: >> >> >> ... >> >> >> >> ... >> >> >> >> ... >> >> >> >> >> >> ... >> >> >> >> ... >> >> >> >> ... >> >> >> - James >> >> Mark Nottingham wrote: >> >> >> >>> >>> At first I really liked this proposal, but I think that the kind >>> of confusion you're concerned about is unavoidable; the terms >>> you refer to suffer "bottom-up" vs. "top-down." >>> >>> I think that defining the terms well and in relation to the >>> subscription feed will help; after all, the terms don't surface >>> in UIs, so it should be transparent. >>> >>> >>> On 14/10/2005, at 10:37 AM, Antone Roundy wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Which brings me back to "top", "bottom", "up" and "down". In >>>> the OpenSearch case, it's clear which end the "top" results are >>>> going to be found. In the syndication feed case, the >>>> convention is to put the most recent entries at the "top". If >>>> you think of a feed as a stack, new entries are stacked on >>>> "top". The fact that these terms are less generic and flexible >>>> than "previous" and "next" is both an advantage and a >>>> disadvantage. I think the question is whether it's an >>>> advantage in a significant majority of cases or not. What >>>> orderings would those terms not work well for? >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist >>> Office of the CTO BEA Systems >>> >>> ____________________________________________________________________ >>> ____________ >>> BEAWorld 2005: coming to a city near you. Everything you need >>> for SOA and enterprise infrastructure success. >>> >>> >>> Register now at http://www.bea.com/4beaworld >>> >>> >>> London 11-12 Oct| Paris13-14 Oct| Prague18-19 Oct |Tokyo 25-26 >>> Oct| Beijing 7-8 Dec >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist > Office of the CTO BEA Systems > > > -- Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist Office of the CTO BEA Systems From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 23:08:06 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQcOz-0005MY-Lw for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:08:06 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA12944 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:07:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9F31osI088840; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:01:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9F31ojP088839; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:01:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav11.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.83]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9F31nQN088801 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:01:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:01:44 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV11.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 03:01:44 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Mark Nottingham" Cc: "Syntax Atom" References: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B032F@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> <43502E2B.7080902@gmail.com> <3F85B178-0BF3-4974-9117-394FFAC54E74@bea.com> Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 04:01:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Oct 2005 03:01:44.0379 (UTC) FILETIME=[C634F0B0:01C5D134] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Subscription feed: > - can contain link/@rel="prev", OR > - can contain fh:incremental = "false" I never did understand this. Why is fh:incremental needed here? From a feed history point of view you either have a history (a prev link is present) or you don't. That's all an Atom processor needs in order to reconstruct the feed. I get that a feed producer may want to provide a non-incremental feed (top 10, todo lists, playlists, etc), but I don't see what that has to do with feed history. Wouldn't that be better suited in a separate extension along with whatever other meta-information might be appropriate for non-incremental lists? > Archive feed: > - can contain link/@rel="prev" and/or link/@rel="next" > - can contain link/@rel="subscribe" (effectively gives you "last") > - link/@rel="subscribe" has a semantic of "if you want to subscribe to > this feed, use the linked document, not this one." > > The reconstruction algorithm is pretty much the same as in -04. > > The only dangling point is "first." I'm not especially against it, but > what's the use case? I'm not especially for it, but it's theoretically possible that someone subscribing to a feed for the first time may want to download the full archives. Depending on their processing model, this may be more convenient starting with the oldest archive and working forwards in time Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 23:23:26 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQcdq-0002p7-Dz for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:23:26 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA13611 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:23:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9F3FRff092981; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:15:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9F3FR58092980; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:15:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9F3FRd7092973 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:15:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (unknown [63.96.173.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E30C53D3E8; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:15:25 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: References: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B032F@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> <43502E2B.7080902@gmail.com> <3F85B178-0BF3-4974-9117-394FFAC54E74@bea.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <5DE0BE0C-3984-4004-A9E3-961F96164066@mnot.net> Cc: "Syntax Atom" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:15:18 -0700 To: James Holderness X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 14/10/2005, at 8:01 PM, James Holderness wrote: > I never did understand this. Why is fh:incremental needed here? > From a feed history point of view you either have a history (a prev > link is present) or you don't. That's all an Atom processor needs > in order to reconstruct the feed. > > I get that a feed producer may want to provide a non-incremental > feed (top 10, todo lists, playlists, etc), but I don't see what > that has to do with feed history. Wouldn't that be better suited in > a separate extension along with whatever other meta-information > might be appropriate for non-incremental lists? It's more relevant than it seems at first glance. Currently, most (if not practically all) feed aggregators will keep a history by default, without information otherwise. Introducing a standard extension to enable that necessitates that there be a way to say "don't do that." >> The only dangling point is "first." I'm not especially against >> it, but what's the use case? > > I'm not especially for it, but it's theoretically possible that > someone subscribing to a feed for the first time may want to > download the full archives. Depending on their processing model, > this may be more convenient starting with the oldest archive and > working forwards in time Yeah, that's pretty much where I'm at; supplying effectively gives *two* ways to reconstruct the state of a feed, meaning that both would need to be supported (and optimised) by implementations, which isn't so great unless there's a compelling need for it. -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 23:39:02 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQcsw-0000LU-PF for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:39:02 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA15129 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:38:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9F3WUES098546; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:32:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9F3WUDU098545; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:32:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9F3WTra098535 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:32:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id m21so290392qbe for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:32:28 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=DjXefdRGJSTgZdyG2w/x3wMi5r3HT1vt74Vc2lfheeIc6AaJlS/k10PzRUSo99zMuz6yPzg367UukvUEt8F9Rb7fXRtr2yihobk0WQFKp0+f/jq4Km1R98VNc9IxjkCx1Pipf7Q0PQHPb0bbram4HJW66CKfXDRnKDVgu6/R6uY= Received: by 10.65.43.9 with SMTP id v9mr274298qbj; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:32:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id f13sm4050763qba.2005.10.14.20.32.26; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:32:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43507848.4020706@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:32:24 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham CC: Antone Roundy , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Feed History -04 References: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B032F@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> <43502E2B.7080902@gmail.com> <3F85B178-0BF3-4974-9117-394FFAC54E74@bea.com> In-Reply-To: <3F85B178-0BF3-4974-9117-394FFAC54E74@bea.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Nottingham wrote: > Right. A few questions that pop up: > > 1) Is it a closed or open set? If it's open (and I think 99% of feeds > are), what does "last" mean? > > My answer is that it's probably an open set, so "last" doesn't mean > much that's useful (unless it's conflated with the subscription feed; > see below). > My answer would be: if "last" is used, it's a closed set; if "last" is not used, it's an open set. > 2) What's the relationship between these feed documents and the feed > document that people subscribe to? > > I think the subscription feed needs to be pinned to one end of the > set (which is what FH does now). Otherwise, it becomes difficult to > figure out whether you have the complete set or not by polling. > I think this will be dependent on the context in which the link rels are used. The "subscription" link rel you've suggested is a good solution to this problem. Within any of the feeds in the set, the "subscription" link rel would point to the feed that should be subscribed to -- regardless of whether the subscription feed appears at the start or end of the set. > > On 14/10/2005, at 3:16 PM, James M Snell wrote: > >> >> The way I look at this is in terms of a single linked list of >> feeds. The ordering of the entries within those feeds is >> irrelevant. The individual linked feeds MAY be incremental (e.g. >> blog entries,etc) or may be complete (e.g. lists,etc). Simply >> because a feeds are linked, no assumption should be made as to >> whether or not the entries in those feeds share any form of ordered >> relationship. >> >> is the first feed in the linked list >> is the next feed in the linked list >> is the previous feed in the linked list >> is the last feed in the linked list. >> >> Terms like "top", "bottom", "up", "down", etc are meaningless in >> this model as they imply an ordering of the contents. >> >> For feed history, it would work something like: >> >> >> ... >> >> >> >> ... >> >> >> >> ... >> >> >> >> >> >> ... >> >> >> >> ... >> >> >> >> ... >> >> >> - James >> >> Mark Nottingham wrote: >> >> >>> >>> At first I really liked this proposal, but I think that the kind >>> of confusion you're concerned about is unavoidable; the terms you >>> refer to suffer "bottom-up" vs. "top-down." >>> >>> I think that defining the terms well and in relation to the >>> subscription feed will help; after all, the terms don't surface in >>> UIs, so it should be transparent. >>> >>> >>> On 14/10/2005, at 10:37 AM, Antone Roundy wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Which brings me back to "top", "bottom", "up" and "down". In the >>>> OpenSearch case, it's clear which end the "top" results are going >>>> to be found. In the syndication feed case, the convention is to >>>> put the most recent entries at the "top". If you think of a feed >>>> as a stack, new entries are stacked on "top". The fact that >>>> these terms are less generic and flexible than "previous" and >>>> "next" is both an advantage and a disadvantage. I think the >>>> question is whether it's an advantage in a significant majority >>>> of cases or not. What orderings would those terms not work well >>>> for? >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist >>> Office of the CTO BEA Systems >>> >>> _____________________________________________________________________ >>> ___________ >>> BEAWorld 2005: coming to a city near you. Everything you need for >>> SOA and enterprise infrastructure success. >>> >>> >>> Register now at http://www.bea.com/4beaworld >>> >>> >>> London 11-12 Oct| Paris13-14 Oct| Prague18-19 Oct |Tokyo 25-26 Oct| >>> Beijing 7-8 Dec >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > -- > Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist > Office of the CTO BEA Systems > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 14 23:42:36 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQcwO-0001iK-3w for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:42:36 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA15607 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:42:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9F3ZN3k099314; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:35:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9F3ZNRB099313; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:35:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.199]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9F3ZM4f099306 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:35:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id m21so290646qbe for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:35:22 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=PDxyxgLRI5Azjk1deWKm8UBSeWCEizl39VNzDPisTtAy6I5CXH1N690ynBfaiogUFs+p2L2hP9wGy87X1Q675NxZnyV+j9NVU6b6k6ixQsPZlvt/4vAQFgFUpXXOOtmNTTrc754W2CqY6am/CeYn/PPi0SoyhmQTQMZjeUQi1/k= Received: by 10.64.152.5 with SMTP id z5mr247829qbd; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id f15sm2312989qba.2005.10.14.20.35.21; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:35:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <435078F6.8040700@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:35:18 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham CC: Antone Roundy , Syntax Atom Subject: Re: Feed History -04 References: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B032F@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> <43502E2B.7080902@gmail.com> <3F85B178-0BF3-4974-9117-394FFAC54E74@bea.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Nottingham wrote: > This leads to: > > Subscription feed: > - can contain link/@rel="prev", OR > - can contain fh:incremental = "false" > > Archive feed: > - can contain link/@rel="prev" and/or link/@rel="next" > - can contain link/@rel="subscribe" (effectively gives you "last") > - link/@rel="subscribe" has a semantic of "if you want to subscribe > to this feed, use the linked document, not this one." > > The reconstruction algorithm is pretty much the same as in -04. > > The only dangling point is "first." I'm not especially against it, > but what's the use case? > The "first" may not be relevant in the Feed history case but does come into play when thinking about paged search results, sequences of linked, non-incremental feeds, etc. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 15 00:31:52 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQdi4-0001RU-86 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 00:31:52 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA18349 for ; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 00:31:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9F4PuWa010413; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:25:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9F4PuBp010412; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:25:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.11]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9F4Pr3o010395 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:25:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] ([203.30.247.18] verified) by ironclad.net.au (Stalker SMTP Server 1.7) with ESMTP id S.0000950299 for ; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 14:25:51 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 14:25:49 +1000 Subject: Re: Feed History -04 From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20051014152257.J7414@bblfish.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 15/10/05 8:28 AM, "Henry Story" wrote: > Is the 'first' the feed document that changes, whereas 'next' and 'last' > point to the archives? (in a feed history context?) My thinking is that of the two ends, 'first' and 'last', it would normally be the 'first' end that is anchored, while the 'last' end would shift as more is added. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 15 00:55:32 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQe4y-0000xR-4w for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 00:55:32 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA19030 for ; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 00:55:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9F4pAiA017044; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:51:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9F4pATb017043; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:51:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.11]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9F4p5ND017025 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:51:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] ([203.30.247.18] verified) by ironclad.net.au (Stalker SMTP Server 1.7) with ESMTP id S.0000950334 for ; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 14:51:03 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 14:51:01 +1000 Subject: Re: Feed History -04 From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <43507848.4020706@gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 15/10/05 1:32 PM, "James M Snell" wrote: > My answer would be: if "last" is used, it's a closed set; if "last" is > not used, it's an open set. +1 ... if it's an open set and you've put 'last' links into every archive, then every time you extend the set you have to rewrite all the previous archives to update the 'last' link. This would not only be a pain for the publishers, but also any consumers. +1 to 'subscribe' over 'subscription', by the way. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 15 00:59:23 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQe8h-0002Ag-2z for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 00:59:23 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA19210 for ; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 00:59:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9F4sBuK017946; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:54:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9F4sBpS017945; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:54:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9F4sAx5017930 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:54:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (unknown [63.96.173.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 558CB3D3B4; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 00:54:09 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <43507848.4020706@gmail.com> References: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B032F@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> <43502E2B.7080902@gmail.com> <3F85B178-0BF3-4974-9117-394FFAC54E74@bea.com> <43507848.4020706@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Syntax Atom Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:54:04 -0700 To: James M Snell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 14/10/2005, at 8:32 PM, James M Snell wrote: >> >> 1) Is it a closed or open set? If it's open (and I think 99% of >> feeds are), what does "last" mean? >> > My answer would be: if "last" is used, it's a closed set; if "last" > is not used, it's an open set. Can you walk me through a use case where this would be desirable? E.g. what would the subscription URI be, would any of the entries be updated, and how if so? In what scenario would having a closed set feed be useful? Separately, you say: > The "first" may not be relevant in the Feed history case but does > come into play when thinking about paged search results, sequences > of linked, non-incremental feeds, etc. How? Can you give us a bit more flesh for the use case? Again, I'm not saying it's bad, but I don't see how it's useful in a feed (as opposed to a Web page). >> 2) What's the relationship between these feed documents and the >> feed document that people subscribe to? >> >> I think the subscription feed needs to be pinned to one end of >> the set (which is what FH does now). Otherwise, it becomes >> difficult to figure out whether you have the complete set or not >> by polling. >> > I think this will be dependent on the context in which the link > rels are used. The "subscription" link rel you've suggested is a > good solution to this problem. Within any of the feeds in the set, > the "subscription" link rel would point to the feed that should be > subscribed to -- regardless of whether the subscription feed > appears at the start or end of the set. What would the algorithm be for assuring that you have the complete state of the feed, without necessitating traversal of the entire feed every time? Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 15 01:32:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQeeN-0003zM-0J for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 01:32:07 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA20156 for ; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 01:32:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9F5OhPH043974; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 22:24:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9F5OhVT043955; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 22:24:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.198]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9F5OgTd043936 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 22:24:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id q18so504764qba for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 22:24:42 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=qt0sMSuEA1BsOIXZV0gyETxKafIomWTgMfvquOl/VruHK7erlFFlaAELHpyx3JLLC7I48ag4p0tN0tBCDrRSmm3oB5mEJdMNwssLGUYlKUUOXnTfXpaOM5/zp24Mnzv6rbpgbEUHj6Pp0ylrg0Gz3egLcy8Hvf4GWGV53zstjMY= Received: by 10.65.203.14 with SMTP id f14mr294435qbq; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 22:24:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id b4sm3166477qbc.2005.10.14.22.24.41; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 22:24:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43509297.4090300@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 22:24:39 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham CC: Syntax Atom Subject: Re: Feed History -04 References: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B032F@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> <43502E2B.7080902@gmail.com> <3F85B178-0BF3-4974-9117-394FFAC54E74@bea.com> <43507848.4020706@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Nottingham wrote: > > On 14/10/2005, at 8:32 PM, James M Snell wrote: > >>> >>> 1) Is it a closed or open set? If it's open (and I think 99% of >>> feeds are), what does "last" mean? >>> >> My answer would be: if "last" is used, it's a closed set; if "last" >> is not used, it's an open set. > > > Can you walk me through a use case where this would be desirable? > E.g. what would the subscription URI be, would any of the entries be > updated, and how if so? In what scenario would having a closed set > feed be useful? > An archive for a blog that is no longer being updated? An archive of entries pertaining to an event with a fixed endpoint? A discussion forum that has been closed. > Separately, you say: > >> The "first" may not be relevant in the Feed history case but does >> come into play when thinking about paged search results, sequences >> of linked, non-incremental feeds, etc. > > > How? Can you give us a bit more flesh for the use case? Again, I'm > not saying it's bad, but I don't see how it's useful in a feed (as > opposed to a Web page). > Suppose that I perform a search on some feed searching service and get back an entry from a feed in the middle of a set. I see the next and previous links and realize that the entry I found is part of a larger set. In order to get the full context, I want to navigate to the beginning of the set and work my way down through the links to the end. > >>> 2) What's the relationship between these feed documents and the >>> feed document that people subscribe to? >>> >>> I think the subscription feed needs to be pinned to one end of the >>> set (which is what FH does now). Otherwise, it becomes difficult >>> to figure out whether you have the complete set or not by polling. >>> >> I think this will be dependent on the context in which the link rels >> are used. The "subscription" link rel you've suggested is a good >> solution to this problem. Within any of the feeds in the set, the >> "subscription" link rel would point to the feed that should be >> subscribed to -- regardless of whether the subscription feed appears >> at the start or end of the set. > > > What would the algorithm be for assuring that you have the complete > state of the feed, without necessitating traversal of the entire feed > every time? > Not sure. I suppose that it would be the same as it is with your existing fh:prev element. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 15 17:02:02 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQtAH-0007Ei-Uv for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 17:02:02 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA27554 for ; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 17:01:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9FKs8K7066576; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 13:54:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9FKs8Qs066574; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 13:54:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9FKs7lA066528 for ; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 13:54:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A2383D38A; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 16:54:05 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <43509297.4090300@gmail.com> References: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B032F@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> <43502E2B.7080902@gmail.com> <3F85B178-0BF3-4974-9117-394FFAC54E74@bea.com> <43507848.4020706@gmail.com> <43509297.4090300@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <2B9367EF-45DF-4983-AD26-C3B39D832AEF@mnot.net> Cc: Syntax Atom Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 13:54:00 -0700 To: James M Snell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 14/10/2005, at 10:24 PM, James M Snell wrote: >>> My answer would be: if "last" is used, it's a closed set; if >>> "last" is not used, it's an open set. >> >> Can you walk me through a use case where this would be desirable? >> E.g. what would the subscription URI be, would any of the entries >> be updated, and how if so? In what scenario would having a closed >> set feed be useful? >> > An archive for a blog that is no longer being updated? An archive > of entries pertaining to an event with a fixed endpoint? A > discussion forum that has been closed. How are implementations supposed to use this information? Stop polling the feed? Consider its items immutable? I'm concerned if something so innocent-looking as "last" has these sorts of implications. >>> The "first" may not be relevant in the Feed history case but >>> does come into play when thinking about paged search results, >>> sequences of linked, non-incremental feeds, etc. >> >> How? Can you give us a bit more flesh for the use case? Again, >> I'm not saying it's bad, but I don't see how it's useful in a >> feed (as opposed to a Web page). >> > Suppose that I perform a search on some feed searching service and > get back an entry from a feed in the middle of a set. I see the > next and previous links and realize that the entry I found is part > of a larger set. In order to get the full context, I want to > navigate to the beginning of the set and work my way down through > the links to the end. You seem to have a human in mind for your use case, when these relations are just there to allow machines to reconstruct the feed. In other words, the ordering used for presentation to people is logically separate from the ordering of feed documents (although the reconstructed, native feed ordering may be used). As such, your use case could be met without specifying 'first'; just follow the normal walk-back-from-the-subscription-feed method to reconstruct state. >>>> 2) What's the relationship between these feed documents and the >>>> feed document that people subscribe to? >>>> >>>> I think the subscription feed needs to be pinned to one end of >>>> the set (which is what FH does now). Otherwise, it becomes >>>> difficult to figure out whether you have the complete set or >>>> not by polling. >>>> >>> I think this will be dependent on the context in which the link >>> rels are used. The "subscription" link rel you've suggested is >>> a good solution to this problem. Within any of the feeds in the >>> set, the "subscription" link rel would point to the feed that >>> should be subscribed to -- regardless of whether the >>> subscription feed appears at the start or end of the set. >> >> What would the algorithm be for assuring that you have the >> complete state of the feed, without necessitating traversal of >> the entire feed every time? >> > Not sure. I suppose that it would be the same as it is with your > existing fh:prev element. It would have to be modified to specify the rules for walking forward from the first document, and then subsequent updates would need to be caught by working backwards from the subscription document using "prev." My current take is that "last" is actively harmful if it implies a closed set, and misleading if it doesn't, and "next" and "first" are mostly harmless, but don't really have supporting use cases and add complexity to both the spec and implementations. I'd really like to keep it simple. Are there any other use cases? -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 15 22:34:57 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQyMQ-0007bL-OD for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 22:34:57 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA07483 for ; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 22:34:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9G2Q5Qc006931; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 19:26:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9G2Ptua006480; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 19:25:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.11]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9G2PkPH005964 for ; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 19:25:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] ([203.30.247.18] verified) by ironclad.net.au (Stalker SMTP Server 1.7) with ESMTP id S.0000953746 for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 12:25:44 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 12:25:39 +1000 Subject: Re: Feed History -04 From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2B9367EF-45DF-4983-AD26-C3B39D832AEF@mnot.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 16/10/05 6:54 AM, "Mark Nottingham" wrote: >>> Can you walk me through a use case where this would be desirable? >>> E.g. what would the subscription URI be, would any of the entries >>> be updated, and how if so? In what scenario would having a closed >>> set feed be useful? >>> >> An archive for a blog that is no longer being updated? An archive >> of entries pertaining to an event with a fixed endpoint? A >> discussion forum that has been closed. > > How are implementations supposed to use this information? Stop > polling the feed? Consider its items immutable? I'm concerned if > something so innocent-looking as "last" has these sorts of implications. perhaps a better example would then be a feed of search results, which at any time of query is a finite and closed set, and also designed to be paged through. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 16 00:21:18 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ER01N-0003c4-MU for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 00:21:17 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA10160 for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 00:21:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9G4DvPP035811; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 21:15:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9G3jeV2010040; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 20:45:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ussjmh01.bea.com (ussjmh01.bea.com [63.96.162.5]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9G3jeAc010034 for ; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 20:45:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from markn@bea.com) Received: from ussjfe02.amer.bea.com (ussjfe02.bea.com [172.16.120.52]) by ussjmh01.bea.com (Switch-3.0.5/Switch-3.0.0) with ESMTP id j9G3jbvX004674; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 20:45:38 -0700 Received: from USSFEX01.amer.bea.com ([10.32.0.56]) by ussjfe02.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Sat, 15 Oct 2005 20:45:37 -0700 Received: from [172.16.1.2] ([172.24.28.102]) by USSFEX01.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Sat, 15 Oct 2005 20:45:37 -0700 In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <53B4AACB-4DC0-4D5F-BAC0-33B35BD34004@bea.com> Cc: Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 20:45:35 -0700 To: Eric Scheid X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Oct 2005 03:45:37.0142 (UTC) FILETIME=[11DE7160:01C5D204] X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.2.0, Antispam-Data: 2005.10.15.35 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK, but that still leaves us with the question below -- who's doing the paging, and why is it useful to have multiple ways around the thing? On 15/10/2005, at 7:25 PM, Eric Scheid wrote: > > On 16/10/05 6:54 AM, "Mark Nottingham" wrote: > > >>>> Can you walk me through a use case where this would be desirable? >>>> E.g. what would the subscription URI be, would any of the entries >>>> be updated, and how if so? In what scenario would having a closed >>>> set feed be useful? >>>> >>>> >>> An archive for a blog that is no longer being updated? An archive >>> of entries pertaining to an event with a fixed endpoint? A >>> discussion forum that has been closed. >>> >> >> How are implementations supposed to use this information? Stop >> polling the feed? Consider its items immutable? I'm concerned if >> something so innocent-looking as "last" has these sorts of >> implications. >> > > perhaps a better example would then be a feed of search results, > which at > any time of query is a finite and closed set, and also designed to > be paged > through. > > e. > > > -- Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist Office of the CTO BEA Systems From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 16 01:05:02 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ER0hi-0005tL-Rg for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 01:05:02 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA11286 for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 01:04:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9G4xl4p058685; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 21:59:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9G4xl1T058683; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 21:59:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.196]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9G4xjb1058665 for ; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 21:59:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i28so706565nzi for ; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 21:59:44 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=SZDawzt0NdZHI0cLT0S9cNefUVoo8UoGQBitOeSValBEpoIZ5xp4qLw9wwP9IX1OrlwPHWWJhiqHh4TP6BoMpPTsTWh4DmvrY9idZf/VevYo6GORVO2aGSqYPHkL/VFRIMQj34e+CHfUW+KZ9FW9S+zXzj38ypJX+JV6fincNZE= Received: by 10.36.251.49 with SMTP id y49mr1356569nzh; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 21:59:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.12.28 with HTTP; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 21:59:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c50510152159q5f64f1c0tb3142abab6277220@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 00:59:44 -0400 From: Robert Sayre To: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Cc: Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: <53B4AACB-4DC0-4D5F-BAC0-33B35BD34004@bea.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <53B4AACB-4DC0-4D5F-BAC0-33B35BD34004@bea.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9G4xjb1058666 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/15/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > OK, but that still leaves us with the question below -- who's doing > the paging, and why is it useful to have multiple ways around the thing? James is 100% wrong :)... about last/first/top/head/bottom/hole-in-the-ground. There's no reason to specify these things in Mark's draft. If they prove useful in implementations, they can be layered on the existing specs. Mark has his next/prev turned around, IMHO. link rel=next should go deeper into the past. Think of how you would write a SQL query with a limit clause. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 16 10:02:45 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ER964-0005ir-QO for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 10:02:44 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA03267 for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 10:02:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9GDtsqn035106; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 06:57:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9G9tctO052528; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 02:55:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9G9svOB052194 for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 02:55:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 69207 invoked by uid 17064); 16 Oct 2005 09:54:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO localhost) ([127.0.0.1]) (envelope-sender ) by 127.0.0.1 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 16 Oct 2005 09:54:46 -0000 Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 02:54:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Henry Story X-X-Sender: hjs@bblfish.net To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Feed History -04 In-Reply-To: <53B4AACB-4DC0-4D5F-BAC0-33B35BD34004@bea.com> Message-ID: <20051016025316.B3905@bblfish.net> References: <53B4AACB-4DC0-4D5F-BAC0-33B35BD34004@bea.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: I am ok with next, prev, ... but I suppose I do have a question that is similar to Marks: how do I know in what order the results are listed? Are they in historical order? Are these feeds grouping entries in alphabetical order, in inverse historical order? Perhaps in alphabetical order of author,... Again next, prev, first, last deal very well with paging. how do we specify the order? Is this related to the query? Should there be a default order for subscription feeds? Should the ordering information be specified in the feed? In rdf we could say things like iana:historicalNext a owl:ObjectProperty; rdfs:subPropertyOf iana:next; rdfs:comment "a historically ordered next relation" . and then use historicalNext for the particular historical ordering that we need to archive our feeds. This would allow processors who do not understand or care about the historical ordering to still walk through the linked list of feeds. Henry Ps. writing from Italy http://dannyayers.com/archives/2005/10/15/welcome-to-the-atomowl/ On Sat, 15 Oct 2005, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 20:45:35 -0700 > From: Mark Nottingham > To: Eric Scheid > Cc: Atom Syntax > Subject: Re: Feed History -04 > > > OK, but that still leaves us with the question below -- who's doing the > paging, and why is it useful to have multiple ways around the thing? > > > On 15/10/2005, at 7:25 PM, Eric Scheid wrote: > >> >> On 16/10/05 6:54 AM, "Mark Nottingham" wrote: >> >> >>>>> Can you walk me through a use case where this would be desirable? >>>>> E.g. what would the subscription URI be, would any of the entries >>>>> be updated, and how if so? In what scenario would having a closed >>>>> set feed be useful? >>>>> >>>>> >>>> An archive for a blog that is no longer being updated? An archive >>>> of entries pertaining to an event with a fixed endpoint? A >>>> discussion forum that has been closed. >>>> >>> >>> How are implementations supposed to use this information? Stop >>> polling the feed? Consider its items immutable? I'm concerned if >>> something so innocent-looking as "last" has these sorts of implications. >>> >> >> perhaps a better example would then be a feed of search results, which at >> any time of query is a finite and closed set, and also designed to be paged >> through. >> >> e. >> >> >> > > > -- > Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist > Office of the CTO BEA Systems > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 16 10:02:48 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ER968-0005j6-0A for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 10:02:48 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA03270 for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 10:02:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9GDtsql035106; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 06:57:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9G8gQwN057472; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 01:42:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9G8fvZT056914 for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 01:41:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hjs@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 50682 invoked by uid 17064); 16 Oct 2005 08:41:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO localhost) ([127.0.0.1]) (envelope-sender ) by 127.0.0.1 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 16 Oct 2005 08:41:57 -0000 Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 01:41:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Henry Story Reply-To: Henry Story To: Mark Nottingham cc: Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Feed History -04 In-Reply-To: <53B4AACB-4DC0-4D5F-BAC0-33B35BD34004@bea.com> Message-ID: <20051016012354.R3905@bblfish.net> References: <53B4AACB-4DC0-4D5F-BAC0-33B35BD34004@bea.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: I am ok with next, prev, ... but I suppose I do have a question that is similar to Marks: how do I know in what order the results are listed? Are they in historical order? Are these feeds grouping entries in alphabetical order, in inverse historical order? Perhaps in alphabetical order of author,... Again next, prev, first, last deal very well with paging. how do we specify the order? Is this related to the query? Should there be a default order for subscription feeds? Should the ordering information be specified in the feed? In rdf we could say things like iana:historicalNext a owl:ObjectProperty; rdfs:subPropertyOf iana:next; rdfs:comment "a historically ordered next relation" . and then use historicalNext for the particular historical ordering that we need to archive our feeds. This would allow processors who do not understand or care about the historical ordering to still walk through the linked list of feeds. Henry Ps. writing from Italy http://dannyayers.com/archives/2005/10/15/welcome-to-the-atomowl/ On Sat, 15 Oct 2005, Mark Nottingham wrote: > OK, but that still leaves us with the question below -- who's doing the > paging, and why is it useful to have multiple ways around the thing? > > > On 15/10/2005, at 7:25 PM, Eric Scheid wrote: > >> >> On 16/10/05 6:54 AM, "Mark Nottingham" wrote: >> >> >>>>> Can you walk me through a use case where this would be desirable? >>>>> E.g. what would the subscription URI be, would any of the entries >>>>> be updated, and how if so? In what scenario would having a closed >>>>> set feed be useful? >>>>> >>>>> >>>> An archive for a blog that is no longer being updated? An archive >>>> of entries pertaining to an event with a fixed endpoint? A >>>> discussion forum that has been closed. >>>> >>> >>> How are implementations supposed to use this information? Stop >>> polling the feed? Consider its items immutable? I'm concerned if >>> something so innocent-looking as "last" has these sorts of implications. >>> >> >> perhaps a better example would then be a feed of search results, which at >> any time of query is a finite and closed set, and also designed to be paged >> through. >> >> e. >> >> >> > > > -- > Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist > Office of the CTO BEA Systems > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 16 17:12:55 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERFoN-0000Av-JO for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 17:12:55 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA24491 for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 17:12:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9GL5KsN092985; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 14:05:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9GL5KrY092983; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 14:05:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9GL5I2v092976 for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 14:05:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id q18so798266qba for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 14:05:18 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=BmC3a3DL1TGuxpTkOaxd209zmUNXucc5f8Fbs63rKubTXP9ZNjyZsodhe8KO1kJh1OarCGAC0CHjRHewiJfCVrZsaEYlDaQlE5XFRiD5eieIStEBCeOOhqZd4PMiATANIZSXDhDXkJ8/UjudeWVpQ5S6ybOphK6tsS4WbjjD9zI= Received: by 10.65.122.14 with SMTP id z14mr1426092qbm; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 14:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id q19sm1855423qbq.2005.10.16.14.05.17; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 14:05:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4352C089.8080208@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 14:05:13 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henry Story CC: Mark Nottingham , Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Feed History -04 References: <53B4AACB-4DC0-4D5F-BAC0-33B35BD34004@bea.com> <20051016012354.R3905@bblfish.net> In-Reply-To: <20051016012354.R3905@bblfish.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henry Story wrote: > > I am ok with next, prev, ... but I suppose I do have a question > that is similar to Marks: how do I know in what order the results > are listed? Are they in historical order? Are these feeds grouping > entries in alphabetical order, in inverse historical order? Perhaps in > alphabetical order of author,... > Ordering of the entries is orthogonal to the paging of the feeds. Some other means of specifying the order of entries would be used (e.g. feed rank or whatever else) > Again next, prev, first, last deal very well with paging. how do we > specify the order? Is this related to the query? Should there be a > default order for > subscription feeds? Should the ordering information be specified in the > feed? > Take a look at my feed rank proposal and let me know what you think. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 16 19:51:39 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERIHz-000267-CP for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 19:51:39 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA03379 for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 19:51:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9GNiNmJ014265; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 16:44:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9GNiNsi014264; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 16:44:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.196]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9GNiNBo014248 for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 16:44:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id m21so614498qbe for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 16:44:22 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Df7IpaPjegCWYAC2GcM/hwzW1USkGNuttbvoT2D2SmT7i8SzNGh7ivONcxUzUKOw2vG9T3ob1SIdF2gYJAQXikMokkLsZfq6BS2+IDZQxcrF5s6rTZVrZy1YTTSeo/REYPrR5kItdbGBvzSyl8WeyTo8ryvPI4TJwHwtMAIucJM= Received: by 10.64.213.8 with SMTP id l8mr1470812qbg; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 16:44:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e13sm5838769qba.2005.10.16.16.44.22; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 16:44:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4352E5D4.9060901@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 16:44:20 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henry Story CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Feed History -04 References: <53B4AACB-4DC0-4D5F-BAC0-33B35BD34004@bea.com> <20051016025316.B3905@bblfish.net> In-Reply-To: <20051016025316.B3905@bblfish.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's another thought. Thus far, we've talked about next/previous/first/last links appearing on the atom:feed element... used as a means of linking Atom Feed Documents together. These same link relations could be used on atom:entry as well.... used as a way of creating a linked list of Atom Entry Documents. tag:example.com,2005:/1 The challenge comes when you want to link to entries that are contained within a feed, in which case, we could use xml:id ... tag:example.com,2005:/1 tag:example.com,2005:/1 Again, this is just used to build a simple linked-list of entries and does not imply any semantic order (e.g. order by date, order by significance, etc). the key challenge with this is that while I can definitely see how it would work, I'm having a hard time envisioning a use case for this. - James Henry Story wrote: > > I am ok with next, prev, ... but I suppose I do have a question that > is similar to Marks: how do I know in what order the results are > listed? Are they in historical order? Are these feeds grouping entries > in alphabetical order, in inverse historical order? Perhaps in > alphabetical order of author,... > > Again next, prev, first, last deal very well with paging. how do we > specify the order? Is this related to the query? Should there be a > default order for subscription feeds? Should the ordering information > be specified in the feed? > > In rdf we could say things like > > iana:historicalNext a owl:ObjectProperty; > rdfs:subPropertyOf iana:next; > rdfs:comment "a historically ordered next relation" . > > and then use historicalNext for the particular historical ordering > that we need to archive our feeds. This would allow processors who do > not understand or care about the historical ordering to still walk > through the linked list of feeds. > > Henry > > Ps. writing from Italy > http://dannyayers.com/archives/2005/10/15/welcome-to-the-atomowl/ > > > On Sat, 15 Oct 2005, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 20:45:35 -0700 >> From: Mark Nottingham >> To: Eric Scheid >> Cc: Atom Syntax >> Subject: Re: Feed History -04 >> >> >> OK, but that still leaves us with the question below -- who's doing >> the paging, and why is it useful to have multiple ways around the thing? >> >> >> On 15/10/2005, at 7:25 PM, Eric Scheid wrote: >> >>> >>> On 16/10/05 6:54 AM, "Mark Nottingham" wrote: >>> >>> >>>>>> Can you walk me through a use case where this would be desirable? >>>>>> E.g. what would the subscription URI be, would any of the entries >>>>>> be updated, and how if so? In what scenario would having a closed >>>>>> set feed be useful? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> An archive for a blog that is no longer being updated? An archive >>>>> of entries pertaining to an event with a fixed endpoint? A >>>>> discussion forum that has been closed. >>>>> >>>> >>>> How are implementations supposed to use this information? Stop >>>> polling the feed? Consider its items immutable? I'm concerned if >>>> something so innocent-looking as "last" has these sorts of >>>> implications. >>>> >>> >>> perhaps a better example would then be a feed of search results, >>> which at >>> any time of query is a finite and closed set, and also designed to >>> be paged >>> through. >>> >>> e. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist >> Office of the CTO BEA Systems >> > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 03:15:51 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERPDr-0007SR-Qw for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 03:15:51 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA21497 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 03:15:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9H79pJu064306; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 00:09:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9H79prW064305; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 00:09:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav23.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.95]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9H79pao064288 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 00:09:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 00:09:51 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 86.135.89.29 by BAY106-DAV23.phx.gbl with DAV; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:09:51 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [86.135.89.29] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: References: <53B4AACB-4DC0-4D5F-BAC0-33B35BD34004@bea.com> <20051016025316.B3905@bblfish.net> <4352E5D4.9060901@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 08:09:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Oct 2005 07:09:51.0529 (UTC) FILETIME=[C4774190:01C5D2E9] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Here's another thought. Thus far, we've talked about > next/previous/first/last links appearing on the atom:feed element... used > as a means of linking Atom Feed Documents together. These same link > relations could be used on atom:entry as well.... used as a way of > creating a linked list of Atom Entry Documents. Interesting thought, but if it doesn't have anything to do with feed history, would it not be best to set it aside for later and concentrate on getting the history spec out the door? The issues I think we still have left to resolve are: 1. Which relationship, next or prev, is used to specify a link backwards in time to an older archive. Mark Nottingham's Feed History proposal used prev. Mark Pilgrim's XML.com article used next. 2. Are next and prev both needed in the spec if we only require one of them to reconstruct the full history? 3. Are the first/last relationships needed? 4. Is the order of the entries in a feed relevant to this proposal? 5. Is the issue of whether a feed is incremental or not (the fh:incremental element) relevant to this proposal? 6. What to name the link relation that points to the active feed document? subscribe, subscription, self, something else? My answers would be: 1. I prefer "next" pointing back in time (as per Pilgrim). 2. I would make the one that points back in time MUST, and the one the points forwards in time MAY. 3. No to both. 4. No. 5. No. 6. subscribe Is there anything I've left out? Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 04:28:47 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERQMP-0001v1-7V for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 04:28:47 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA24681 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 04:28:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9H8KNl6075706; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 01:20:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9H8KNsj075705; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 01:20:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9H8KJpl075697 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 01:20:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:22:20 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:20:13 +1000 Subject: Re: Feed History -04 From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 17/10/05 5:09 PM, "James Holderness" wrote: > 1. Which relationship, next or prev, is used to specify a link backwards in > time to an older archive. Mark Nottingham's Feed History proposal used prev. > Mark Pilgrim's XML.com article used next. I'd prefer that our use of 'prev' and 'next' be consistent with other uses elsewhere, where 'next' traverses from the current position to the one that *follows*, whether in time or logical order. Consider the use of 'first/next/prev/last' with chapters or sections rendered in HTML. > 2. Are next and prev both needed in the spec if we only require one of them > to reconstruct the full history? Knowing that the most recently published archive won't likely remain the most recently published archive, there will be use cases where it's better to reconstruct the full history by starting at the one end which is fixed. Not much sense starting at the other end which is constandly shifting. > 3. Are the first/last relationships needed? See (2) above for 'first'. Meanwhile 'last' could be followed by a user to jump ahead to the end of the set of archives to see if the butler did it. Who said 'first/next/prev/last' would only be used by machines? > 4. Is the order of the entries in a feed relevant to this proposal? not to this proposal. > 5. Is the issue of whether a feed is incremental or not (the fh:incremental > element) relevant to this proposal? non-incremental feeds wouldn't be paged, by definition, would they? > 6. What to name the link relation that points to the active feed document? > subscribe, subscription, self, something else? 'subscribe' e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 07:47:12 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERTSS-0000Dc-DM for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:47:12 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA06084 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HBUvR7007220; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 04:30:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HBUvYn007219; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 04:30:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from motgate8.mot.com (motgate8.mot.com [129.188.136.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HBUul5007211 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 04:30:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Brett.Lindsley@motorola.com) Received: from il06exr03.mot.com (il06exr03.mot.com [129.188.137.133]) by motgate8.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate7) with ESMTP id j9HBgbeg019673 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 04:42:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm66.ds.mot.com (de01exm66.am.mot.com [10.176.8.17]) by il06exr03.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j9HBec9P007102 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 06:40:38 -0500 (CDT) x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Subject: RE: Feed History -04 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:30:54 -0400 Message-ID: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B0333@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> Thread-Topic: Feed History -04 Thread-Index: AcXRDgjG83d3eAWiTL+BnnGxcDm/xgB+tSfQ From: "Lindsley Brett-ABL001" To: "James M Snell" , "Mark Nottingham" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9HBUvl5007213 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I would like to toss out another thought - since the updated time of a feed is required, maybe it can be used to help determine the feed order/history. For example, if following a "next" link (or pick your favorite term), if the updated time gets older, then the client can understand these entries are from an earlier time. If when following the "next" link the updated time stays the same, then the client can assume this is just more of the same collection from the previous point in time (unordered collection). Just a thought... Brett Lindsley, Motorola Labs. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 09:46:28 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERVJs-0002id-1h for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:46:28 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA13033 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:46:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HDarfQ020703; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 06:36:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HDarc0020702; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 06:36:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HDaqqN020687 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 06:36:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:38:53 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:36:47 +1000 Subject: Re: Feed History -04 From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B0333@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 17/10/05 9:30 PM, "Lindsley Brett-ABL001" wrote: > I would like to toss out another thought - since the updated time of a > feed is required, maybe it can be used to help determine the feed > order/history. > For example, if following a "next" link (or pick your favorite term), if > the updated time gets older, then the client can understand these > entries are from an earlier time. If when following the "next" link the > updated time stays the same, then the client can assume this is just > more of the same collection from the previous point in time (unordered > collection). Just a thought... Won't work -- older date-paged archives may have an entry updated anytime in the future, and thus not only does that entry get a more recent atom:updated than any entries intervening then and now, but the feed itself will also get a more recent atom:updated. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 10:51:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERWKT-0002h5-9K for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:51:09 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA16421 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:51:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HEhgpE028079; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:43:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HEhgeY028078; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:43:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav13.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.85]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HEhfDj028066 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:43:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:43:36 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV13.phx.gbl with DAV; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:43:35 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Eric Scheid" , "Atom Syntax" References: Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:43:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Oct 2005 14:43:36.0193 (UTC) FILETIME=[27A14F10:01C5D329] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Scheid wrote: > I'd prefer that our use of 'prev' and 'next' be consistent with other uses > elsewhere, where 'next' traverses from the current position to the one > that > *follows*, whether in time or logical order. Consider the use of > 'first/next/prev/last' with chapters or sections rendered in HTML. I'm still not exactly sure which of the two options you're in favour of. This is the reason why the point is being debated - it's not immediately obvious which way is most consistent with usage elsewhere. Nottingham or Pilgrim? >> 2. Are next and prev both needed in the spec if we only require one of >> them >> to reconstruct the full history? > > Knowing that the most recently published archive won't likely remain the > most recently published archive, there will be use cases where it's better > to reconstruct the full history by starting at the one end which is fixed. > Not much sense starting at the other end which is constandly shifting. The way I understand it, both sides are fixed as soon as there is at least one archive. At the one end you have the oldest archive. At the other end you have the current syndication document (to which the end-user would subscribe). Both URIs are fixed. The most recent archive will keep changing over time, but that is the second item in the list (or second last, depending on which direction you prefer to travel). >> 5. Is the issue of whether a feed is incremental or not (the >> fh:incremental >> element) relevant to this proposal? > > non-incremental feeds wouldn't be paged, by definition, would they? This has been debated. There have been those who have expressed an interest in having next and prev links traverse an archive of old non-incremental feeds. Say you have a feed with the top 10 books for this month. The next link (or prev link, depending on your preference) would point to the archive document with the top 10 books from last month. Personally I think that is an issue that should be argued and subsequently specified in a separate proposal on the use of non-incremental feeds. Just make sure the history spec is open enough to allow for either possibility once it is decided. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 11:29:17 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERWvN-0004Dm-HR for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:29:17 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA19389 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:29:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HFNEtv033529; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 08:23:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HFNEWB033528; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 08:23:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HFNBMN033522 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 08:23:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B51B33D380; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:23:08 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <53702634-3D03-464E-AD49-5ED52C8BE98C@mnot.net> Cc: Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 08:23:05 -0700 To: Eric Scheid X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 17/10/2005, at 1:20 AM, Eric Scheid wrote: > I'd prefer that our use of 'prev' and 'next' be consistent with > other uses > elsewhere, where 'next' traverses from the current position to the > one that > *follows*, whether in time or logical order. Consider the use of > 'first/next/prev/last' with chapters or sections rendered in HTML. I'm starting to think that the way to fix this is to make it more specific, so that it doesn't get conflated with other uses; e.g., "prev-archive". -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 11:42:05 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERX7l-0006Qy-0p for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:42:05 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA19936 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:41:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HFX79H034401; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 08:33:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HFX7fT034400; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 08:33:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HFX6jv034387 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 08:33:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Tue, 18 Oct 2005 01:35:09 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 01:29:39 +1000 Subject: Re: Feed History -04 From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 18/10/05 12:43 AM, "James Holderness" wrote: > Eric Scheid wrote: > >> I'd prefer that our use of 'prev' and 'next' be consistent with other uses >> elsewhere, where 'next' traverses from the current position to the one that >> *follows*, whether in time or logical order. Consider the use of >> 'first/next/prev/last' with chapters or sections rendered in HTML. >> > I'm still not exactly sure which of the two options you're in favour of. This > is the reason why the point is being debated - it's not immediately obvious > which way is most consistent with usage elsewhere. Nottingham or Pilgrim? > hmmm ... I did say "Consider the use of 'first/next/prev/last' with chapters or sections rendered in HTML"... Chapter #1 comes first, followed by chapter #2, and you go from chapter #1 through to chapter #nnn via 'next'. Think too of Pepys' Diary. What would you consider the 'first' entry? Would the 'first' entry be 1st January 1660, or would it be 16th October 1662? Note well though that sometime tomorrow the latter point would be neither 'first' or 'last' because there would be a new entry for the 17th October 1662 (and yet another one the day after). >>> 2. Are next and prev both needed in the spec if we only require one of them >>> to reconstruct the full history? >>> >> Knowing that the most recently published archive won't likely remain the most >> recently published archive, there will be use cases where it's better to >> reconstruct the full history by starting at the one end which is fixed. Not >> much sense starting at the other end which is constandly shifting. >> > The way I understand it, both sides are fixed as soon as there is at least one > archive. At the one end you have the oldest archive. At the other end you have > the current syndication document (to which the end-user would subscribe). Both > URIs are fixed. What I mean by fixed is that it doesn't move or change as the set grows. Adding one onto the end and resetting where 'last' points to means that 'last' is *not* fixed. What you mean is that as soon as there is at least one archive then both ends are *established*. One end is fixed, and the other will grow. >>> 5. Is the issue of whether a feed is incremental or not (the fh:incremental >>> element) relevant to this proposal? >>> >> non-incremental feeds wouldn't be paged, by definition, would they? >> > This has been debated. There have been those who have expressed an interest in > having next and prev links traverse an archive of old non-incremental feeds. > Say you have a feed with the top 10 books for this month. The next link (or > prev link, depending on your preference) would point to the archive document > with the top 10 books from last month. That makes sense. > Personally I think that is an issue that should be argued and subsequently > specified in a separate proposal on the use of non-incremental feeds. Just > make sure the history spec is open enough to allow for either possibility once > it is decided. I agree. So .. the issue of (not-)incremental is orthogonal to feed history then. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 12:13:28 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERXc7-0004BE-Ox for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:13:27 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA21784 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:13:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HG4TEK037293; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:04:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HG4TpY037292; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:04:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HG4Sac037285 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:04:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <2005101716042201300kp1cue>; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:04:23 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:04:21 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Oct 17, 2005, at 2:20 AM, Eric Scheid wrote: > On 17/10/05 5:09 PM, "James Holderness" wrote: >> 1. Which relationship, next or prev, is used to specify a link >> backwards in >> time to an older archive. Mark Nottingham's Feed History proposal >> used prev. >> Mark Pilgrim's XML.com article used next. > I'd prefer that our use of 'prev' and 'next' be consistent with > other uses > elsewhere, where 'next' traverses from the current position to the > one that > *follows*, whether in time or logical order. Consider the use of > 'first/next/prev/last' with chapters or sections rendered in HTML. ...so do you follow forward through time or backward? Is the starting "current position" "now" or the "the beginning of time"? Especially if we're talking about history, following backward makes as much sense as following forward. I prefer "next" to go back in time (if temporally ordered--from the most current chunk to the next most current chunk) or to less significant pages (in things like search results). But I'll probably have to stop and think what "next" means in temporally ordered feeds from time to time since it'd be the reverse of temporal order. >> 2. Are next and prev both needed in the spec if we only require >> one of them >> to reconstruct the full history? > Knowing that the most recently published archive won't likely > remain the > most recently published archive, there will be use cases where it's > better > to reconstruct the full history by starting at the one end which is > fixed. > Not much sense starting at the other end which is constandly shifting. Is this only going to be used to reconstruct full history? What about just reconstructing the last 3 months (in which case you'd want a link from closer to the live end to close to the fixed end), or reading from the beginning before deciding whether to continue reading what comes later (in which case you'd want a link from closer to the fixed end to closer to the live end). >> 3. Are the first/last relationships needed? > See (2) above for 'first'. Meanwhile 'last' could be followed by a > user to > jump ahead to the end of the set of archives to see if the butler > did it. > Who said 'first/next/prev/last' would only be used by machines? As mentioned above, there may be cases where you'd prefer to start at either the fixed or live end, so as long as complete feed reconstruction isn't the only goal, I'd say yes. But what's "first"? It'd be the top results in a search feed, but would it be the start of time or the start from the present (before possibly traveling backward through time) in a temporally ordered feed? Making it the start of time would prevent it from matching up well with how significance ordered feeds match up (ie. does start point to the thing you'd most likely want to see if you subscribed to the feed?) If we're not careful, we'll be traversing out of "first" through "prev" and "last" through "next"! >> 4. Is the order of the entries in a feed relevant to this proposal? > not to this proposal. If you mean not just the order within each chunk of the feed, but the order of the chunks, then not central, but certainly related. Two cases come to mind: 1) A chain of temporally ordered chunks in the history of a feed where new entries are tacked onto the end. 2) Search results, where the order of everything all along the entire chain shifts around all the time. If you're not going to reconstruct the whole thing, then your decision function for when to stop may have to be different depending on how things are ordered. BTW, case 2 destroys the idea of a "fixed" end and a "live" end. Having a means to indicate what the ordering is might make it easier to make the distinction between "next" and "prev" more intuitive. I'm not sure how else we're going to reconcile terminology for significance and temporally ordered feeds. >> 5. Is the issue of whether a feed is incremental or not (the >> fh:incremental >> element) relevant to this proposal? > non-incremental feeds wouldn't be paged, by definition, would they? This week's top ten on the first page, last week's ten on the second page... Since this proposal is defining a paging mechanism, I think that what each page represents is relevant. Is it an earlier part of the feed or an earlier state of the feed? >> 6. What to name the link relation that points to the active feed >> document? >> subscribe, subscription, self, something else? > 'subscribe' I just noticed something about the definition of "self" in the format spec. In one place it says: o atom:feed elements SHOULD contain one atom:link element with a rel attribute value of "self". This is the preferred URI for retrieving Atom Feed Documents representing this Atom feed. Does that mean that it's the preferred URI, or the preferred place to retrieve of the feed history? The format spec didn't define paging, so it didn't contemplate talking about chunks of the feed--so here it sounds like it's talking about a subscription URI (else it would say "for retrieving this Atom Feed Document."). Moving on...elsewhere, the spec says this: 3. The value "self" signifies that the IRI in the value of the href attribute identifies a resource equivalent to the containing element. In a historical chunk, wouldn't that have to mean "this chunk"? Can "self" be polymorphic--the subscription URI in the live end of a feed, and "this chunk" in a historical chunk? Can an extension speak authoritatively about the meaning of something from the core spec? I'd think that if the feed history extension is an official Working Group document, then it wouldn't be out of line to use it to nail down the meaning of "self" more tightly, especially since we don't currently seem to have agreement about the meaning of "self". Let's let "self" mean "a place to get what you're looking at right now, which may or may not change over time", and add "subscribe" with it's obvious meaning. If a document contains both and they're different, then "self" should NOT be used to subscribe (although that arguably conflicts with the first part of the spec quoted above). If "self" weren't a "SHOULD", I'd think this would lead to "self" being used only in historical chunks, and "subscribe" being used in both historical chunks and live documents to point to the subscription URI, which would be nice and clean. But since "self" is a "SHOULD", I'm afraid this will lead to "self" pointing to live documents in documents without a "subscribe" link, and historical chunks in documents that do have "subscribe". A bit ugly, but is there a better way available to us? From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 12:41:44 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERY3U-0004ig-R0 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:41:44 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA23141 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:41:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HGVSdO039791; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:31:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HGVSG1039790; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:31:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [216.148.227.117]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HGVSW4039772 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:31:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2005101716312101300od4h6e>; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:31:21 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <43DF152F-EAC7-4C95-A61E-7449D6623F35@geckotribe.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:31:20 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Oct 17, 2005, at 10:04 AM, Antone Roundy wrote: >>> 4. Is the order of the entries in a feed relevant to this proposal? ... > 1) A chain of temporally ordered chunks in the history of a feed > where new entries are tacked onto the end. > 2) Search results, where the order of everything all along the > entire chain shifts around all the time. > > If you're not going to reconstruct the whole thing, then your > decision function for when to stop may have to be different > depending on how things are ordered. > > BTW, case 2 destroys the idea of a "fixed" end and a "live" end. > > Having a means to indicate what the ordering is might make it > easier to make the distinction between "next" and "prev" more > intuitive. I'm not sure how else we're going to reconcile > terminology for significance and temporally ordered feeds. Okay, I've got another idea--switch to totally generic terminology, a la: "end-a": the URI of "most significant", "most current", "prerequisite"[1], etc. end of a sequence of documents, or a randomly selected end if there is no order. "end-b": the URI of the "least significant", "least current", or ...uh, "postrequisite"? end of a sequence of documents or otherwise the opposite end from "end-a". "a-ward": the URI of the document next closest to "end-a" in the sequence. "b-ward": the URI of the document next closest to "end-b" in the sequence. If you have neither "end-a" nor "end-b", then you should use "b-ward" to traverse out of the subscription document (ie. the subscription document in that case is assumed to be "end-a"). [1] if the sequence should be read first to last, for example, if it's a novel broken down into entries, "end-a" points to the place from which one should start. Which end is "end-a" and which is "end- b" is somewhat subjective. For example, in a temporally ordered feed, is it most important to read what's most current, or to understand the origins of the present first before reading what's most current? One more thing occurs to me--if this extension is going to be used to handle things like paging in search results, then it's not really "feed history", it's "paging". From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 13:16:40 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERYbI-0005G2-Mv for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:16:40 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA25438 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:16:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HH6WV5043544; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:06:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HH6WHu043543; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:06:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mX1.myOutlookonline.com (mx1.MyOutlookOnline.com [69.25.74.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HH6WpZ043534 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:06:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from byrne@sixapart.com) Received: from be022.mail.lan ([10.109.209.122]) by mX1.myOutlookonline.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:06:26 -0400 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Feed History -04 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:06:30 -0400 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Feed History -04 Thread-Index: AcXS9bVrBd7ST2brQqu1TVnJCJYuRQARNGTA From: "Byrne Reese" To: "Eric Scheid" , "Atom Syntax" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Oct 2005 17:06:26.0777 (UTC) FILETIME=[1C18A490:01C5D33D] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9HH6WpZ043538 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > 1. Which relationship, next or prev, is used to specify a link > > backwards in time to an older archive. Mark Nottingham's > Feed History proposal used prev. > > Mark Pilgrim's XML.com article used next. > > I'd prefer that our use of 'prev' and 'next' be consistent > with other uses elsewhere, where 'next' traverses from the > current position to the one that *follows*, whether in time > or logical order. Consider the use of 'first/next/prev/last' > with chapters or sections rendered in HTML. +1 "next" and "previous" are as James points out, orthogonal to ordering. The debate as to whether the next set goes backwards or forwards in time is not about the use of the terms "next" and "previous," it is about the default sort order of a result set. > Think too of Pepys' Diary. What would you consider the 'first' entry? > Would the 'first' entry be 1st January 1660, or would it be 16th > October 1662? Case and point. The answer to this question depends entirely upon the sort order. Another way to think about it: if I have a feed of my "popular" entries does "first" point to the least popular or most popular? You could argue both sides pretty effectively, but once you decide on the order, and then I put you are the beginning of the list and asked you, "please get me the next entry in the result set" I doubt anyone would have a hard time fulfilling my request. > > > 2. Are next and prev both needed in the spec if we only > require one of > > them to reconstruct the full history? > > Knowing that the most recently published archive won't likely > remain the most recently published archive, there will be use > cases where it's better to reconstruct the full history by > starting at the one end which is fixed. > Not much sense starting at the other end which is constandly shifting. -1 Yes, they are both needed. I would want 'next' and 'prev' to used to create pagination controls, where the user is in control of traversing the archive. > > > 3. Are the first/last relationships needed? > > See (2) above for 'first'. Meanwhile 'last' could be followed > by a user to jump ahead to the end of the set of archives to > see if the butler did it. > Who said 'first/next/prev/last' would only be used by machines? To be honest, I am less concerned about 'last' but I do like 'first' and for the sake of symmetry, I think we should support both. > > > 4. Is the order of the entries in a feed relevant to this proposal? > > not to this proposal. +1 > > 5. Is the issue of whether a feed is incremental or not (the > > fh:incremental > > element) relevant to this proposal? > > non-incremental feeds wouldn't be paged, by definition, would they? Why not? Why wouldn't I have a "Top 100 DVDs of All Time" broken out into 10 feeds of 10 entries each? Although one could say that the presence of 'next' and 'prev' links indicate that the feed is incremental, and the absence of those links indicates the feed is complete. > > 6. What to name the link relation that points to the active > feed document? > > subscribe, subscription, self, something else? > > 'subscribe' +1 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 13:33:28 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERYrY-0001Fp-J3 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:33:28 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA26486 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:33:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HHQQWC046320; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:26:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HHQQFv046319; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:26:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HHQP8c046279 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:26:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Tue, 18 Oct 2005 03:27:59 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 03:25:54 +1000 Subject: Re: Feed History -04 From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 18/10/05 2:04 AM, "Antone Roundy" wrote: >> I'd prefer that our use of 'prev' and 'next' be consistent with other uses >> elsewhere, where 'next' traverses from the current position to the one that >> *follows*, whether in time or logical order. Consider the use of >> 'first/next/prev/last' with chapters or sections rendered in HTML. >> > ...so do you follow forward through time or backward? Is the starting > "current position" "now" or the "the beginning of time"? Especially if we're > talking about history, following backward makes as much sense as following > forward. You can "start" wherever you want, but the @rel='first' archive is the archive which contains the first entry that ever existed. Why would the @rel='first' archive contain the last entry created, that makes no sense. If you want to go backwards in time, then the "next" archive would be found by following the @rel='prev' link .. because you are going backwards! > I prefer "next" to go back in time (if temporally ordered--from the most > current chunk to the next most current chunk) or to less significant pages > (in things like search results). But I'll probably have to stop and think > what "next" means in temporally ordered feeds from time to time since it'd be > the reverse of temporal order. You're also likely to get confused when comparing Atom archives against their HTML versions ... because in the HTML world the '@rel=first' page is conventionally the oldest page, and the @rel='next' page traverses forward in time. > But what's "first"? It'd be the top results in a search feed, but > would it be the start of time or the start from the present (before > possibly travelling backward through time) in a temporally ordered > feed? Making it the start of time would prevent it from matching up > well with how significance ordered feeds match up (ie. does start > point to the thing you'd most likely want to see if you subscribed to > the feed?) If we're not careful, we'll be traversing out of "first" > through "prev" and "last" through "next"! Ask yourself these questions: which is the "first" message in this thread, and if you wanted to understand the thread would you start there, or at the most recent entry in this thread and read backwards. Remember that by the time you've read back to the initial posting there would likely now be even more entries into this thread, so where would you then read them from ... where you started and going forward in time, or would you jump to the most recent and then read backwards until you hit a message you already read? So, would you read the messages in this order: 7,6,5,4,3,2,1,8,9,10,11,12,13,14 or... 7,6,5,4,3,2,1,11,10,9,8,13,12,14 or... 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14 I know which way I'd prefer to read stuff. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 13:52:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERZ9n-0005nZ-CY for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:52:19 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA27790 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:52:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HHiLYW048636; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:44:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HHiLPC048635; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:44:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HHiKcX048629 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:44:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Tue, 18 Oct 2005 03:46:25 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 03:44:20 +1000 Subject: Re: Feed History -04 From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 18/10/05 2:04 AM, "Antone Roundy" wrote: > Can "self" be polymorphic--the subscription URI in the live end of a > feed, and "this chunk" in a historical chunk? Can an extension speak > authoritatively about the meaning of something from the core spec? If it were so, and you were looking at an historical chunk, you would still need some link to where you might subscribe to that feed. So, if polymorphic, you'd have in the current living chunk a link of 'self' to subscribe to, but in a historical chunk you'd need to ignore the 'self' link and follow the 'subscribe' link instead. If not polymorphic, in the current living chunk you'd have a 'subscribe' link, and in a historical chunk you'd have a 'subscribe' link. They would both mean the same thing, and have the same value. In the historical chunk the 'self' link would be different from the 'subscribe' link (pointing at the historical chunk, of course), but in the current living chunk they could very well have the same value ... or not... The "or not" case is best exemplified by the nature.com feed links. If you want to subscribe to Nature Medicine, you'd use this URI ... http://www.nature.com/nm/current_issue/rss/ ... but if you were to attempt to retrieve that URI today you would find yourself redirected to ... http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/v11/n10/rss.rdf ... where, if were atom, you might find a 'self' link pointing to that second URI, not the first. The nature.com feeds are, btw, a rather good real-life example of non-incremental feeds. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 13:52:34 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERZA2-0005tn-Ci for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:52:34 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA27802 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:52:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HHjjhS048752; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:45:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HHjj5C048751; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:45:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HHjhhK048744 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:45:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Tue, 18 Oct 2005 03:47:49 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 03:45:44 +1000 Subject: Re: Feed History -04 From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 18/10/05 2:04 AM, "Antone Roundy" wrote: > 2) Search results, where the order of everything all along the entire > chain shifts around all the time. > > BTW, case 2 destroys the idea of a "fixed" end and a "live" end. Case 2 would be a closed set, generally speaking. Technically, they wouldn't necessarily be closed sets. Tim Bray, search god that he is, has explained in some blog post somewhere that the smart thing to do is simply find the first hundred or so results, sort them, and only when the user asks for more pages to bother going off and finding more results to add to the collection. It's complicated, I think I understood it for all of 10 seconds after I finished reading it, and it only really applies to searching massive collections ... searches in more finite collections would be, could be, completely closed sets. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 14:00:51 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERZI2-0008W2-RM for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:00:50 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA28289 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:00:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HHsLYi049823; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:54:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HHsL7Y049822; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:54:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.198.43]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HHsLeO049810 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:54:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2005101717541501400l8aehe>; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:54:15 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:54:12 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Oct 17, 2005, at 11:06 AM, Byrne Reese wrote: >>> 5. Is the issue of whether a feed is incremental or not (the >>> fh:incremental >>> element) relevant to this proposal? >>> >> >> non-incremental feeds wouldn't be paged, by definition, would they? >> > > Why not? Why wouldn't I have a "Top 100 DVDs of All Time" broken out > into 10 feeds of 10 entries each? > > Although one could say that the presence of 'next' and 'prev' links > indicate that the feed is incremental, and the absence of those links > indicates the feed is complete. Ugh! This suggests yet another feed model. First, what we've already got: 1) Incremental feed document: a feed document that contains a subset of the entries that are currently in the feed (resource), where new entries are added to the feed without replacing old entries. 2) Non-incrememental feed document: a feed document which contains representations of every entry which is currently part of the feed, where new entries replace old entries. and then... 3) ??? feed document: a feed document which contains representations of a subset of the entries that are currently in the feed (resource), where new entries replace old entries. Linking up #3 documents to show a history of the feed will be even more complicated than what we've been discussing. Do we need such a beast? I wish I could unequivocally say "no", but I'm forced to equivocate: are not search result feeds #3? It seems that indeed we need two separate mechanisms--a paging mechanism and a history mechanism. Unless both are going to go into the same extension, the extensions should be explicit about the the fact that they describe one and not the other. And we should choose link/@rel names carefully so that one doesn't end up using names better suited fore the other. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 14:26:37 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERZgz-0006SN-84 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:26:37 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA29661 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:26:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HIJFDO052265; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:19:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HIJFTu052264; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:19:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [216.148.227.117]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HIJFmN052255 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:19:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2005101718191001300ohnnie>; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:19:10 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <0A2F2763-CE38-4E44-B18D-1712D43A0CB1@geckotribe.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:19:09 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Oct 17, 2005, at 11:25 AM, Eric Scheid wrote: > On 18/10/05 2:04 AM, "Antone Roundy" wrote: >>> I'd prefer that our use of 'prev' and 'next' be consistent with >>> other uses >>> elsewhere, where 'next' traverses from the current position to >>> the one that >>> *follows*, whether in time or logical order. Consider the use of >>> 'first/next/prev/last' with chapters or sections rendered in HTML. >>> >> ...so do you follow forward through time or backward? Is the >> starting >> "current position" "now" or the "the beginning of time"? >> Especially if we're >> talking about history, following backward makes as much sense as >> following >> forward. > > You can "start" wherever you want, but the @rel='first' archive is the > archive which contains the first entry that ever existed. Why would > the > @rel='first' archive contain the last entry created, that makes no > sense. Here's how "first" pointing to the last entry created could make sense--it's pointing not to the first entry, but to the first page in a chain of pages of entries. In that case, "first" points to the starting point, whether that be the first entry created or the last. > If you want to go backwards in time, then the "next" archive would > be found > by following the @rel='prev' link .. because you are going backwards! Consider this: -- my brother, who has spent time in Taiwan and China tells me that the Chinese are the same--they think of themselves as facing the past (which they can see--makes sense)--not the future. The future is still unseen behind them. But getting back to what I was saying above, "next in the chain" only correlate to one particular direction in time if the chain is defined in terms or a specific direction in time. I face the past when I look at incremental feeds. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 14:47:22 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERa14-00027e-Li for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:47:22 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA00496 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:47:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HId7Bb054870; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:39:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HId7og054869; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:39:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav16.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.88]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HId75R054863 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:39:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:39:06 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV16.phx.gbl with DAV; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:39:05 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:39:01 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Oct 2005 18:39:06.0595 (UTC) FILETIME=[0E018B30:01C5D34A] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Scheid wrote: > Ask yourself these questions: which is the "first" message in this thread, > and if you wanted to understand the thread would you start there, or at > the > most recent entry in this thread and read backwards. Remember that by the > time you've read back to the initial posting there would likely now be > even > more entries into this thread, so where would you then read them from ... > where you started and going forward in time, or would you jump to the most > recent and then read backwards until you hit a message you already read? This makes perfect sense if you're a human reading messages, but now try and understand it from the point of view of a computer program (an Atom processor). The computer doesn't care which messages came first. It's not going to try and read the messages and make sense of them. It just wants to retrieve all the documents in the most efficient way possible. First off is has to start with the most recent document since that's what the user is going to subscribe to. From there, the most sensible thing to do would be to keep following links back in time to older and older archives until it has retrieved all of them or (if this is a feed that has been downloaded before) until it reaches an archive that it has previously retrieved. While it's theoretically possible to obtain a link from the subscription document back to the oldest archive and then make your way forward in time that wouldn't be very efficient when you've most likely already retrieved all of those old archives. From an aggregator's point of view, you really don't have that much choice - going backwards in time is the only sensible thing to do. Which is why aggregator developers tend to think of the most recent document as "first", and subsequent documents (back in time) as "next". Technically these documents don't even have to be archives - they could just as easily be chunks of search results. The dates on the messages don't even come into play - an Atom processor wouldn't treat them any differently. I don't dispute that you have valid reason for thinking that forwards in time is the way to go, but please don't assume those of us that think the opposite are necessarily insane. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 14:56:55 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERaAI-0004M3-RI for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:56:55 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA01062 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:56:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HImle0055631; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:48:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HImlxq055630; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:48:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf01.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.68]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HImjG1055619 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:48:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.6.169.92]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FCD5599EF4; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:48:39 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4353F21E.7030206@cegetel.net> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:49:02 +0200 From: Thomas Broyer User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.4 (Windows/20050908) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Holderness Cc: Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Feed History -04 References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Holderness wrote: >>> 5. Is the issue of whether a feed is incremental or not (the >>> fh:incremental >>> element) relevant to this proposal? >> >> non-incremental feeds wouldn't be paged, by definition, would they? > > This has been debated. There have been those who have expressed an > interest in having next and prev links traverse an archive of old > non-incremental feeds. Say you have a feed with the top 10 books for > this month. The next link (or prev link, depending on your preference) > would point to the archive document with the top 10 books from last month. I think that Mark's concerns were that readers/aggregators generally keep a local history of the feeds they're subscribed to. fh:incremental=no would explicitly tell them not to do so. -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 15:13:04 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERaPw-0007aM-GM for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:13:04 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA01825 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:12:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HJ5wEn057784; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:05:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HJ5w9h057783; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:05:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HJ5vJc057777 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:05:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i28so878487nzi for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:05:56 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Ey6P31794w/jXSBu6RKUImlBk6sD2H9pOjeYEdTcjtWpHY2PjD6XvtOQ2aWZI3Ii/frsrJyhIiqBUmAyuXehQ4lvj9r9zzo4ADAFaJ6VlpKPqWlQY2QC31sEANEKVWjlYhTXRMH1YL3btXZd5Vnwd5GrRMaG8XQ9Ewc5np+1QWU= Received: by 10.36.18.7 with SMTP id 7mr2943284nzr; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:05:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.12.27 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:05:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c50510171205t7d19fcbav5b27fabecd347b95@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:05:55 -0400 From: Robert Sayre To: Byrne Reese Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Cc: Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9HJ5vJc057778 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/17/05, Byrne Reese wrote: > "next" and "previous" are as James points out, orthogonal to ordering. > The debate as to whether the next set goes backwards or forwards in time > is not about the use of the terms "next" and "previous," it is about the > default sort order of a result set. Fully agree. Let's use what MarkP wrote down over a year ago, and stop debating the nature of adjacency and ordering as it relates time and archives. Are there any technical problems with the elements in this feed: http://diveintomark.org/xml/2004/03/index.atom Works for me. Can anyone tell us about problems this causes for their software? Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 15:22:22 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERaYv-0001MN-AH for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:22:21 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA02199 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:22:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HJ9ATg058146; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:09:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HJ9APY058145; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:09:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ussjmh01.bea.com (ussjmh01.bea.com [63.96.162.5]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HJ9AFY058139 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:09:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from markn@bea.com) Received: from ussjfe01.amer.bea.com (ussjfe01b.bea.com [172.16.120.57]) by ussjmh01.bea.com (Switch-3.0.5/Switch-3.0.0) with ESMTP id j9HJ8lvd017367; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:08:55 -0700 Received: from USSFEX01.amer.bea.com ([10.32.0.56]) by ussjfe01.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:08:46 -0700 Received: from [172.16.1.2] ([172.24.28.34]) by USSFEX01.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:08:46 -0700 In-Reply-To: <4353F21E.7030206@cegetel.net> References: <4353F21E.7030206@cegetel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <4A08C2D9-437B-4615-8841-BD0396906A3F@bea.com> Cc: James Holderness , Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:08:41 -0700 To: Thomas Broyer X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Oct 2005 19:08:46.0103 (UTC) FILETIME=[32ACEA70:01C5D34E] X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.2.0, Antispam-Data: 2005.9.9.24 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Exactly. I don't want this draft to become the all-singing, all-dancing feed model review; although there's lots of interesting stuff there, it's way too ambitious for my tastes (and I think I detect the smell of a tarpit faintly wafting...). The feed history case gets us to a nice 80 +% point; the rest can come in separate vehicles. Any response to 'prev-archive'? Cheers, On 17/10/2005, at 11:49 AM, Thomas Broyer wrote: > > James Holderness wrote: > >>>> 5. Is the issue of whether a feed is incremental or not (the >>>> fh:incremental >>>> element) relevant to this proposal? >>>> >>> >>> non-incremental feeds wouldn't be paged, by definition, would they? >>> >> >> This has been debated. There have been those who have expressed an >> interest in having next and prev links traverse an archive of old >> non-incremental feeds. Say you have a feed with the top 10 books >> for this month. The next link (or prev link, depending on your >> preference) would point to the archive document with the top 10 >> books from last month. >> > I think that Mark's concerns were that readers/aggregators > generally keep a local history of the feeds they're subscribed to. > fh:incremental=no would explicitly tell them not to do so. > > -- > Thomas Broyer > > > > -- Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist Office of the CTO BEA Systems ________________________________________________________________________________ BEAWorld 2005: coming to a city near you. Everything you need for SOA and enterprise infrastructure success. Register now at http://www.bea.com/4beaworld London 11-12 Oct| Paris13-14 Oct| Prague18-19 Oct |Tokyo 25-26 Oct| Beijing 7-8 Dec From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 15:45:56 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERavj-000651-SO for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:45:56 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA03225 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:45:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HJcL8O061103; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:38:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HJcL5p061102; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:38:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.203]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HJcK19061096 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:38:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id q18so1037221qba for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:38:20 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=UxVnTuv0Ad5/xdbxDwljQ2ViSMkA/gjK30iOQyctlqKKN3UGNOZcxiFnCDTHypeXXPXcxN8E7E3MZp7kJXTlrzTggxfilfXcvZr12yCaDKMkMZpsvQq5iynL1QvSJ6722BvagMglvfACpfLa/hSedi095kgcIq9ropToWIBEp6Y= Received: by 10.65.123.6 with SMTP id a6mr2305708qbn; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e14sm1869883qba.2005.10.17.12.38.00; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4353FD94.5010206@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:37:56 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham CC: Thomas Broyer , James Holderness , Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Feed History -04 References: <4353F21E.7030206@cegetel.net> <4A08C2D9-437B-4615-8841-BD0396906A3F@bea.com> In-Reply-To: <4A08C2D9-437B-4615-8841-BD0396906A3F@bea.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, I honestly believe that feed history can be achieved using a very simple model: a. incremental=true... which means that entries (posted at any time) may exist in other feed documents b. start/next/prev... points to other feeds where entries may be found if I point my newsreader to a feed document that has a incremental=true, I would look for a start link. I would process the start feed then begin walking my way through the next links to build the history. The start feed MAY have the most recent entries or MAY have the oldest entries, it doesn't matter. My Atom processor would just Do The Right Thing with whatever entries it finds in the feeds as it walks through the linked list of feed documents. How does the Atom processor know when it has the complete history? Either a) the user tells it to stop or b) it reaches a feed without a "next" link. There shouldn't be any requirement that the entries in a feed (or even the feed documents themselves) have to be in a specific order in order to reconstruct the history. The minimum requirement is only that we're able to find the feed documents we need. The Atom processor can figure the rest out from there. - James Mark Nottingham wrote: > > Exactly. > > I don't want this draft to become the all-singing, all-dancing feed > model review; although there's lots of interesting stuff there, it's > way too ambitious for my tastes (and I think I detect the smell of a > tarpit faintly wafting...). The feed history case gets us to a nice 80 > +% point; the rest can come in separate vehicles. > > Any response to 'prev-archive'? > > Cheers, > > > On 17/10/2005, at 11:49 AM, Thomas Broyer wrote: > >> >> James Holderness wrote: >> >>>>> 5. Is the issue of whether a feed is incremental or not (the >>>>> fh:incremental >>>>> element) relevant to this proposal? >>>>> >>>> >>>> non-incremental feeds wouldn't be paged, by definition, would they? >>>> >>> >>> This has been debated. There have been those who have expressed an >>> interest in having next and prev links traverse an archive of old >>> non-incremental feeds. Say you have a feed with the top 10 books >>> for this month. The next link (or prev link, depending on your >>> preference) would point to the archive document with the top 10 >>> books from last month. >>> >> I think that Mark's concerns were that readers/aggregators generally >> keep a local history of the feeds they're subscribed to. >> fh:incremental=no would explicitly tell them not to do so. >> >> -- >> Thomas Broyer >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist > Office of the CTO BEA Systems > > ________________________________________________________________________________ > > BEAWorld 2005: coming to a city near you. Everything you need for SOA > and enterprise infrastructure success. > > > Register now at http://www.bea.com/4beaworld > > > London 11-12 Oct| Paris13-14 Oct| Prague18-19 Oct |Tokyo 25-26 Oct| > Beijing 7-8 Dec > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 15:47:27 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERaxD-0006OF-65 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:47:27 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA03281 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:47:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HJZKOU060717; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:35:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HJZKUq060716; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:35:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav11.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.83]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HJZKXk060706 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:35:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:35:05 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV11.phx.gbl with DAV; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:35:05 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: <4353F21E.7030206@cegetel.net> Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:35:01 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Oct 2005 19:35:05.0418 (UTC) FILETIME=[E00542A0:01C5D351] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas Broyer wrote: >> This has been debated. There have been those who have expressed an >> interest in having next and prev links traverse an archive of old >> non-incremental feeds. Say you have a feed with the top 10 books for this >> month. The next link (or prev link, depending on your preference) would >> point to the archive document with the top 10 books from last month. > I think that Mark's concerns were that readers/aggregators generally keep > a local history of the feeds they're subscribed to. fh:incremental=no > would explicitly tell them not to do so. I get that, and I think it's important - I just don't think it should be part of this spec. It's a problem regardless of whether you have feed history or not. I don't think that people wanting to support non-incremental feeds (but aren't necessarily interested in feed history) should have to read the history spec to find out how to do it. If we want to keep this spec as simple as possible, the fh:incremental tag is something that I think can be left out. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 15:49:24 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERaz6-0006nX-7a for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:49:24 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA03365 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:49:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HJhl3H062103; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:43:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HJhlmP062102; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:43:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HJhk9A062092 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:43:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Tue, 18 Oct 2005 05:45:47 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 05:43:42 +1000 Subject: Re: Feed History -04 From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 18/10/05 4:39 AM, "James Holderness" wrote: > > Eric Scheid wrote: > >> Ask yourself these questions: which is the "first" message in this thread, >> and if you wanted to understand the thread would you start there, or at the >> most recent entry in this thread and read backwards. Remember that by the >> time you've read back to the initial posting there would likely now be even >> more entries into this thread, so where would you then read them from ... >> where you started and going forward in time, or would you jump to the most >> recent and then read backwards until you hit a message you already read? >> > This makes perfect sense if you're a human reading messages, but now try and > understand it from the point of view of a computer program (an Atom > processor). The computer doesn't care which messages came first. > Yes, the _computer_ does *not* care. So why should it's preference trump the human reader? I imagine a future where a client application would offer up feed documents rendered all pretty, and offer up any links to other feed documents as links the client application will itslef render rather than passing them to a HTML browser. Thus, a Feed Browser in the same sense as a HTML Browser. Do you want to explain to future users why the "next" link gives them last weeks news instead of next weeks news? > It's not going to try and read the messages and make sense of them. It just > wants to retrieve all the documents in the most efficient way possible. Do things efficiently then. Remember though that the computer does *not* care if the token is 'next' or 'prev' or even 'foobar'. Does *not* care. > First off is has to start with the most recent document since that's what the > user is going to subscribe to. From there, the most sensible thing to do would > be to keep following links back in time to older and older archives until it > has retrieved all of them or (if this is a feed that has been downloaded > before) until it reaches an archive that it has previously retrieved. Did you say "back" in time? Your explanation is riddled with references to going backwards .. the aggregator/developer frame of reference is "going backwards", so of course the "next" object would be the one marked as being prior to the one your are currently on. That is, the next feed to process is the one marked @rel='prev'. Depending on what meta-data is available, and which axis you wish to traverse, and in which direction, then the link to the object you wish to retrieve after processing the current one could be "next", "prev", "hotter", "colder", or "foobar". The usage of the word "next" in describing the sequence of actions is entirely dependent on the purpose of those actions, and quite possibly completely detached from the meaning of the content being processed. The @rel='next' and @rel='prev' links however are part and parcel of the content. They describe the content. They are provided by the content publisher. They don't describe some third party's desired course of action. > I don't dispute that you have valid reason for thinking that forwards in time > is the way to go, but please don't assume those of us that think the opposite > are necessarily insane. But that would take all the fun out of things ;-) e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 15:50:25 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERb05-0006xJ-Hl for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:50:25 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA03559 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:50:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HJgoaw061851; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:42:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HJgoHn061849; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:42:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HJgns3061833 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:42:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (uswaef01.bea.com [12.130.8.219]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C7B3D3A5; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:42:47 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <4353FD94.5010206@gmail.com> References: <4353F21E.7030206@cegetel.net> <4A08C2D9-437B-4615-8841-BD0396906A3F@bea.com> <4353FD94.5010206@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Thomas Broyer , James Holderness , Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:42:28 -0700 To: James M Snell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I already get the same results with just one link relation -- 'prev- archive' -- instead of three. The algorithm for combining results is an important issue, but an orthogonal one. On 17/10/2005, at 12:37 PM, James M Snell wrote: > Mark, I honestly believe that feed history can be achieved using a > very simple model: > > a. incremental=true... which means that entries (posted at any > time) may exist in other feed documents > b. start/next/prev... points to other feeds where entries may be found > > if I point my newsreader to a feed document that has a > incremental=true, I would look for a start link. I would process > the start feed then begin walking my way through the next links to > build the history. The start feed MAY have the most recent entries > or MAY have the oldest entries, it doesn't matter. My Atom > processor would just Do The Right Thing with whatever entries it > finds in the feeds as it walks through the linked list of feed > documents. How does the Atom processor know when it has the > complete history? Either a) the user tells it to stop or b) it > reaches a feed without a "next" link. > > There shouldn't be any requirement that the entries in a feed (or > even the feed documents themselves) have to be in a specific order > in order to reconstruct the history. The minimum requirement is > only that we're able to find the feed documents we need. The Atom > processor can figure the rest out from there. > > - James > > Mark Nottingham wrote: > > >> >> Exactly. >> >> I don't want this draft to become the all-singing, all-dancing >> feed model review; although there's lots of interesting stuff >> there, it's way too ambitious for my tastes (and I think I detect >> the smell of a tarpit faintly wafting...). The feed history case >> gets us to a nice 80 +% point; the rest can come in separate >> vehicles. >> >> Any response to 'prev-archive'? >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> On 17/10/2005, at 11:49 AM, Thomas Broyer wrote: >> >> >>> >>> James Holderness wrote: >>> >>> >>>>>> 5. Is the issue of whether a feed is incremental or not (the >>>>>> fh:incremental >>>>>> element) relevant to this proposal? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> non-incremental feeds wouldn't be paged, by definition, would >>>>> they? >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> This has been debated. There have been those who have expressed >>>> an interest in having next and prev links traverse an archive >>>> of old non-incremental feeds. Say you have a feed with the top >>>> 10 books for this month. The next link (or prev link, depending >>>> on your preference) would point to the archive document with >>>> the top 10 books from last month. >>>> >>>> >>> I think that Mark's concerns were that readers/aggregators >>> generally keep a local history of the feeds they're subscribed >>> to. fh:incremental=no would explicitly tell them not to do so. >>> >>> -- >>> Thomas Broyer >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist >> Office of the CTO BEA Systems >> >> _____________________________________________________________________ >> ___________ >> BEAWorld 2005: coming to a city near you. Everything you need for >> SOA and enterprise infrastructure success. >> >> >> Register now at http://www.bea.com/4beaworld >> >> >> London 11-12 Oct| Paris13-14 Oct| Prague18-19 Oct |Tokyo 25-26 >> Oct| Beijing 7-8 Dec >> >> >> > > -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 16:01:51 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERbB9-0001Kx-Jf for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:01:51 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA05137 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:01:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HJVqNF060451; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:31:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HJVq0B060450; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:31:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.195]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HJVp2u060432 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:31:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id m21so828686qbe for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:31:50 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=iCAjglaOcWbHM96E9UIDmNO+Lv22bS33L2zxbms/jATvRjj4P6vvRui8Odge8/v/NjIZzOpVWrD79ETEffEjSoQXDarRwxWlfllsx1WSQ+Zggz2LbRLh29sSMW3xLM3+8r38iVKRkUjUIoW4QYdpdXtlvdg6HGXeMBxeMl0kLRI= Received: by 10.65.163.4 with SMTP id q4mr1714676qbo; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:31:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e15sm3920181qbe.2005.10.17.12.31.48; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:31:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4353FC1A.7030701@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:31:38 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Sayre CC: Byrne Reese , Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Feed History -04 References: <68fba5c50510171205t7d19fcbav5b27fabecd347b95@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <68fba5c50510171205t7d19fcbav5b27fabecd347b95@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Sayre wrote: >On 10/17/05, Byrne Reese wrote: > > >>"next" and "previous" are as James points out, orthogonal to ordering. >>The debate as to whether the next set goes backwards or forwards in time >>is not about the use of the terms "next" and "previous," it is about the >>default sort order of a result set. >> >> > >Fully agree. Let's use what MarkP wrote down over a year ago, and stop >debating the nature of adjacency and ordering as it relates time and >archives. Are there any technical problems with the elements in this >feed: > >http://diveintomark.org/xml/2004/03/index.atom > > > ;-) Woo hoo! Robert and I agree on something ;-) Debating how the entries are organized is fruitless. The Atom spec already states that the order of elements in the feed has no significance; trying to get an extension to retrofit order-significance into the feed is going to fail... just as I discovered with my Feed Index extension proposal. * Next/Prev/Start/Subscribe defines a linked list of feed documents and/or entry documents and says absolutely nothing about the ordering of the entries. * Next/Prev/Start/Subscribe should be defined in their own specification that is not bound to Feed History * Feed History (if MarkN wishes it so) should normatively reference the Next/Prev/Start/Subscribe extension spec I do believe that a "last" link relation would be helpful for completeness and I do believe the use cases are there (e.g. search results, etc) but I am ok with dropping that for now as it can easily be defined later once the use cases do become more prominent. Over the next week I'll see if I can draft up the spec. I'll use what MarkP put together as the basis for what I write up and submit. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 16:06:21 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERbFV-0003i1-4q for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:06:21 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA06737 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:06:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HJsiqZ064089; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:54:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HJsiwq064088; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:54:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc14.comcast.net (sccrmhc14.comcast.net [63.240.76.49]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HJshMn064080 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:54:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc14) with SMTP id <2005101719542701400nc5pve>; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:54:32 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Feed History -04 -- is it history or paging or both? Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:54:19 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If we're going to separate the concepts of "history" and "paging", then the term "history" doesn't really apply to incremental feeds. In an incremental feed, all of the entries are part of the current state of the feed. We don't go back through history to find the present--we go to different pages of the present. In a non- incrememental feed also, we may have multiple pages of current entries (eg. the top 100 DVDs in chunks of 10), or we may have just one. We also may preserve historical data (eg. the top 10 songs last week, the week before, etc.) So what we end up with might looks like this: Any feed, whether incremental or not, MAY contain something like this (names chosen somewhat arbitrarily, with an eye toward avoiding excess conceptual baggage): page-a - the URI of one end of a chain of documents representing one state of a feed resource (eg. the current state of an incremental feed)--it doesn't really matter which end it is page-b - the other end of the chain of documents page++ - the next farther page from page-a page-- - the next closer page to page-a Neither "page-a" nor "page-b" is necessarily fixed--the entire contents of the chain may shuffle around, be added to, be deleted from, etc., in the case of something like search results. A non-incremental feed MAY also contain something like this (history is temporal, so we can use temporally loaded terminology): history-1 - a document containing a representation of one of the ends of or the entire temporally first historical state of the feed resource history-n - a document containing a representation of one of the ends of or the entire temporally last (perhaps current and still changing) historical state of the feed resource history++ - one of the ends or ... of the the next more recent historical state... (moves toward history-n) history-- - one of the ends ... of the next less recent historical state... (moves toward history-1) If you want to catch up on an incremental feed to which you're subscribed, or want to get the last month of an incremental feed to which you are newly subscribed, you look for "page++" or "page--" and follow whichever one the subscription document (which can only have one, since it's one of the ends) contains till you've got everything you want. If you start in the middle, you don't know which direction you're going...but since the ordering of the chain isn't defined, it's like the Cheshire cat says--it doesn't matter which direction you go if you don't know where you want to end up...or something like that. Perhaps convention could dictate that "page-a" be where the publisher subjectively thinks that a newcomer to the feed would be most likely to want to start reading. It wouldn't always be correct, but so what? From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 16:28:50 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERbbF-0001ww-TN for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:28:50 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA17179 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:28:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HKFqjv066896; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:15:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HKFqgr066895; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:15:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.205]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HKFpkB066889 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:15:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i28so885939nzi for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:15:51 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=fK540XgF5kL/JtDDt6thtmM4KWwdbYlSwxO2iHmP05j1y83tiCX9dOfDYtrJ/n5MjkVfghd6QjMXcHgKh3RJjon9tjbONr/mDncwRzjtaxuuVXJ2THCsMhYCZvHW+iIf2C4AmHiZTeU/ek4nxPULZWFlCFJwJzsGpDbF89TJlAU= Received: by 10.36.177.17 with SMTP id z17mr2980658nze; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:15:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.12.27 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:15:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c50510171315g32e74b1bi5329b8e5bae435e3@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:15:51 -0400 From: Robert Sayre To: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Cc: James M Snell , Thomas Broyer , James Holderness , Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <4353F21E.7030206@cegetel.net> <4A08C2D9-437B-4615-8841-BD0396906A3F@bea.com> <4353FD94.5010206@gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9HKFqkB066890 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/17/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > I already get the same results with just one link relation -- 'prev- > archive' -- instead of three. Why should one prefer your proposal to what's in this feed: http://diveintomark.org/xml/2004/03/index.atom 'prev-archive' is more specific, and I think that's a bad thing. It seems to introduce tower of babel problems. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 17:16:24 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERcLI-0000Bv-Ef for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:16:24 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA06275 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:16:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HL80D8073358; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:08:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HL80ah073357; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:08:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf00.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.67]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HL7xF4073343 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:08:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.6.169.92]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 284D11A4429; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:07:53 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <435412E1.1060401@cegetel.net> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:08:49 +0200 From: Thomas Broyer User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.4 (Windows/20050908) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham Cc: James Holderness , Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Feed History -04 References: <4353F21E.7030206@cegetel.net> <4A08C2D9-437B-4615-8841-BD0396906A3F@bea.com> In-Reply-To: <4A08C2D9-437B-4615-8841-BD0396906A3F@bea.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Nottingham wrote: > I don't want this draft to become the all-singing, all-dancing feed > model review; although there's lots of interesting stuff there, it's > way too ambitious for my tastes (and I think I detect the smell of a > tarpit faintly wafting...). The feed history case gets us to a nice > 80+% point; the rest can come in separate vehicles. > > Any response to 'prev-archive'? Question: is what you want really a link to archives or isn't it just "simple" paging through a feed? I suspect it is the latter, because reconstructing feed state is only needed if a complete set of entries is split into several documents. Therefore, I'll rather suggest moving to: - a spec about paging, defining head/prev/next (do we really need tail?) [note: see with A9/OpenSearch people] - a spec defining fh:incremental, describing relation to paging (can a non-incremental feed be paged? does it mean something different than paging of an incremental feed?) - eventually a spec defining links to archives (which in turn may use paging: think about archives of search results, what did the same query return yesterday, last week, last month, etc.) -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 17:19:39 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERcOR-0000ar-F5 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:19:39 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA06429 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:19:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HLAkg8073582; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:10:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HLAkjl073581; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:10:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav8.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.80]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HLAka2073562 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:10:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:10:41 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV8.phx.gbl with DAV; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:10:40 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:10:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Oct 2005 21:10:41.0147 (UTC) FILETIME=[3AC80CB0:01C5D35F] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Scheid wrote: >> This makes perfect sense if you're a human reading messages, but now try >> and >> understand it from the point of view of a computer program (an Atom >> processor). The computer doesn't care which messages came first. > > Yes, the _computer_ does *not* care. So why should it's preference trump > the > human reader? Personally I wouldn't care at all except for one reason. There exists a published "specification" that defines "next" as pointing to the next most recent archive, and at least one feed that follows that spec. Whatever is decided for the new protocol I would feel obliged to support that old protocol as well. If the two disagree that makes the process somewhat more complicated. Everything else you say, while perfectly reasonable, does not inspire me to accept the extra effort involved without at least a mild protest. > But that would take all the fun out of things ;-) True. We wouldn't want that. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 17:23:51 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERcSV-0002nu-Dm for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:23:51 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA06826 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:23:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HLCw3f073731; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:12:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HLCwfu073730; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:12:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf00.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.67]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HLCvhG073719 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:12:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.6.169.92]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11B071A4332; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:12:52 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <43541410.40803@cegetel.net> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:13:52 +0200 From: Thomas Broyer User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.4 (Windows/20050908) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James M Snell Cc: Mark Nottingham , James Holderness , Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Feed History -04 References: <4353F21E.7030206@cegetel.net> <4A08C2D9-437B-4615-8841-BD0396906A3F@bea.com> <4353FD94.5010206@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4353FD94.5010206@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James M Snell wrote: > if I point my newsreader to a feed document that has a > incremental=true, I would look for a start link. I would process the > start feed then begin walking my way through the next links to build > the history. The start feed MAY have the most recent entries or MAY > have the oldest entries, it doesn't matter. It does matter if I don't want my newsreader to reconstruct the entire feed state and rather stop when it has read X entries or has reached Y-day old entries. > There shouldn't be any requirement that the entries in a feed (or even > the feed documents themselves) have to be in a specific order in order > to reconstruct the history. It should (not SHOULD!) however be based on atom:updated or something similar (e.g. my-ext:last-modified) -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 17:51:14 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERcsz-00079q-W7 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:51:14 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA09087 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:51:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HLiuI3077736; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:44:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HLiuxc077735; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:44:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HLisUm077721 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:44:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (uswaef01.bea.com [12.130.8.219]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 131C73D3D3; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:44:51 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <4353FC1A.7030701@gmail.com> References: <68fba5c50510171205t7d19fcbav5b27fabecd347b95@mail.gmail.com> <4353FC1A.7030701@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Robert Sayre , Byrne Reese , Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: New Link Relations? [was: Feed History -04] Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:44:49 -0700 To: James M Snell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 17/10/2005, at 12:31 PM, James M Snell wrote: > > Debating how the entries are organized is fruitless. The Atom spec > already states that the order of elements in the feed has no > significance; trying to get an extension to retrofit order- > significance into the feed is going to fail... just as I discovered > with my Feed Index extension proposal. +1 > I do believe that a "last" link relation would be helpful for > completeness and I do believe the use cases are there (e.g. search > results, etc) but I am ok with dropping that for now as it can > easily be defined later once the use cases do become more prominent. > Over the next week I'll see if I can draft up the spec. I'll use > what MarkP put together as the basis for what I write up and submit. We actually don't need a spec, according to -11; we just need to send an e-mail to IANA requesting the registrations, and get IESG approval. Assuming we can come to WG consensus, that should be easy. I took a look at doing this over the weekend, and this is what I came up with; - Attribute Value: prev - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed document containing entries that sequentially precede those in the current document. Note that the exact nature of the ordering between the entries and documents containing them is not defined by this relation; i.e., this relation is only relative. - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. - Security considerations: Because automated agents may follow this link relation to construct a 'virtual' feed, care should be taken when it crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a different authority than the current document). - Attribute Value: next - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed document containing entries that sequentially follow those in the current document. Note that the exact nature of the ordering between the entries and documents containing them is not defined by this relation; i.e., this relation is only relative. - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. - Security considerations: Because automated agents may follow this link relation to construct a 'virtual' feed, care should be taken when it crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a different authority than the current document). - Attribute Value: first - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed document containing those entries furthest preceding those in the current document at the time it was minted. Note that the exact nature of the ordering between the entries and documents containing them is not defined by this relation; i.e., this relation is only relative. - Expected display characteristics: - Security considerations: - Attribute Value: last - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed document containing those entries furthest following those in the current document at the time it was minted. Note that the exact nature of the ordering between the entries and documents containing them is not defined by this relation; i.e., this relation is only relative. - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. - Security considerations: - Attribute Value: subscribe - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed document containing the most recent entries in the feed. This URI is intended to be subscribed to to keep abreast of changes in the feed. When different from the URI of the feed document it exists in, it indicates a URi that should be used for this purpose in place of the current document's URI. - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. - Security considerations: Users should always be informed of the actual URI they are subscribing to, and subscription should only take place when it is explicitly requested. I have one concern about this approach, which I'll outline separately (in response to Robert). -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 17:52:36 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERcuK-0007IU-7c for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:52:36 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA09112 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:52:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HLids9077714; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:44:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HLidoA077713; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:44:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HLiaiG077699 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:44:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (uswaef01.bea.com [12.130.8.219]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D29923D380; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:44:34 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <68fba5c50510171315g32e74b1bi5329b8e5bae435e3@mail.gmail.com> References: <4353F21E.7030206@cegetel.net> <4A08C2D9-437B-4615-8841-BD0396906A3F@bea.com> <4353FD94.5010206@gmail.com> <68fba5c50510171315g32e74b1bi5329b8e5bae435e3@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <0FE04CCF-527A-421E-8708-806E5C229ED7@mnot.net> Cc: James M Snell , Thomas Broyer , James Holderness , Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Are Generic Link Relations Always a Good Idea? [was: Feed History -04] Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:44:30 -0700 To: Robert Sayre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert, It's a matter of personal preference as to whether one likes 'prev' or 'next'; if there had been wide implementation and a good specification of what MarkP did, I could see a strong argument for using it. As it is, no one has even noticed it had similarity to this proposal until a few days ago, and it looks like there are a number of people who have strong feelings each way. OTOH, how specific the relation is *is* a technical issue; could you expand on what you see as the 'tower of babel' problem? My concern is that if there is more than one use of a link relation like 'next' or 'prev', those uses could conflict. For example, if I use 'prev' for Feed History, will that cause a problem with feeds using Amazon OpenSearch if they want to use it in a slightly different way? To put it in Thomas' terms, what if there are different concepts of paging using the same terms -- which there seem to be already? This shows up perfectly with the whole "next or previous?" discussion. If we don't assign specific, functional semantics to the links, people will interpret -- and use -- them differently. This is why I'm leaning towards "prev-archive". On 17/10/2005, at 1:15 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: > On 10/17/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> >> I already get the same results with just one link relation -- 'prev- >> archive' -- instead of three. >> > > Why should one prefer your proposal to what's in this feed: > http://diveintomark.org/xml/2004/03/index.atom > > 'prev-archive' is more specific, and I think that's a bad thing. It > seems to introduce tower of babel problems. > > Robert Sayre > > -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 18:01:58 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERd3O-000242-3A for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:01:58 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA09609 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:01:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HLt4Ol078681; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:55:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HLt3j3078680; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:55:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.203]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HLt3Kb078674 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:55:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id m21so862417qbe for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:55:02 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=U6N3TQPeLoUMfet/VciOGnbFCf3+Vq7iDpEbjHdzcZYT42gaMCzn9IXBhPciBihWLDjSmbKxBpvkZAcfGfu9HKdBN59bweYiqcxMujdtYWpqFCQ8/QUmBNZMZoXnmUvGklUG+zzFPe4E0ZnhLzFQNZl2kTt3u1icRMLetT4eB8U= Received: by 10.64.180.13 with SMTP id c13mr2369101qbf; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:55:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id m3sm390754qbe.2005.10.17.14.55.01; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:55:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43541DB3.2080206@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:54:59 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham CC: Robert Sayre , Byrne Reese , Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: New Link Relations? [was: Feed History -04] References: <68fba5c50510171205t7d19fcbav5b27fabecd347b95@mail.gmail.com> <4353FC1A.7030701@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Nottingham wrote: >> I do believe that a "last" link relation would be helpful for >> completeness and I do believe the use cases are there (e.g. search >> results, etc) but I am ok with dropping that for now as it can >> easily be defined later once the use cases do become more prominent. >> Over the next week I'll see if I can draft up the spec. I'll use >> what MarkP put together as the basis for what I write up and submit. > > > We actually don't need a spec, according to -11; we just need to send > an e-mail to IANA requesting the registrations, and get IESG > approval. Assuming we can come to WG consensus, that should be easy. > Yeah, I know we don't *need* a spec; having a spec is my personal bias towards having a clear description about how things are defined and how they are to be used. In this case, it may not matter much. So I'm perfectly fine with the email to IANA approach. > I took a look at doing this over the weekend, and this is what I came > up with; > > - Attribute Value: prev > - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed > document containing entries that sequentially precede those in the > current document. Note that the exact nature of the ordering between > the entries and documents containing them is not defined by this > relation; i.e., this relation is only relative. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: Because automated agents may follow this > link relation to construct a 'virtual' feed, care should be taken > when it crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a different > authority than the current document). > +1. An additional security concern would be the potential for circular references > - Attribute Value: next > - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed > document containing entries that sequentially follow those in the > current document. Note that the exact nature of the ordering between > the entries and documents containing them is not defined by this > relation; i.e., this relation is only relative. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: Because automated agents may follow this > link relation to construct a 'virtual' feed, care should be taken > when it crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a different > authority than the current document). > +1 > - Attribute Value: first > - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed > document containing those entries furthest preceding those in the > current document at the time it was minted. Note that the exact > nature of the ordering between the entries and documents containing > them is not defined by this relation; i.e., this relation is only > relative. > - Expected display characteristics: > - Security considerations: > +1 > - Attribute Value: last > - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed > document containing those entries furthest following those in the > current document at the time it was minted. Note that the exact > nature of the ordering between the entries and documents containing > them is not defined by this relation; i.e., this relation is only > relative. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: > +1 > - Attribute Value: subscribe > - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed > document containing the most recent entries in the feed. This URI is > intended to be subscribed to to keep abreast of changes in the feed. > When different from the URI of the feed document it exists in, it > indicates a URi that should be used for this purpose in place of the > current document's URI. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: Users should always be informed of the > actual URI they are subscribing to, and subscription should only take > place when it is explicitly requested. > > +1 - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 18:05:43 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERd70-0003w8-QK for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:05:43 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA09808 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:05:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HLwwJF079004; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:58:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HLww1b079003; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:58:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.198]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HLwvBY078997 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:58:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id q18so1070641qba for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:58:57 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ma/kNl93Q89En7zQm844Uq3fOSc1HTUHkpq/lyC5px5+r5mwaHExLSNHe2u31HaS7CEc5PTOKKXov4sQjtNm3YfR6K/Dgogj33rr/QBYBEv6BoYkTLFDKf0hl7J9vhuKiRkyMYbm3AbXxpeId/IQLr2lLHvOzVwLdBcag8kuuPE= Received: by 10.65.98.20 with SMTP id a20mr2412868qbm; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:58:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id q19sm2775135qbq.2005.10.17.14.58.55; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:58:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43541E9E.80002@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:58:54 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham CC: Robert Sayre , Thomas Broyer , James Holderness , Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Are Generic Link Relations Always a Good Idea? [was: Feed History -04] References: <4353F21E.7030206@cegetel.net> <4A08C2D9-437B-4615-8841-BD0396906A3F@bea.com> <4353FD94.5010206@gmail.com> <68fba5c50510171315g32e74b1bi5329b8e5bae435e3@mail.gmail.com> <0FE04CCF-527A-421E-8708-806E5C229ED7@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <0FE04CCF-527A-421E-8708-806E5C229ED7@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know this was directed to Robert, but I'd like to throw my $.02 in. Generally speaking, if the semantic difference between the use of next/prev in one feed relative to another can be expressed using a separate extension (e.g. the presence of an incremental=true or a profile attribute or whatever else may come up, then I would favor the use of the generic mechanism assuming that the basic function is the same. - James Mark Nottingham wrote: > Robert, > > It's a matter of personal preference as to whether one likes 'prev' > or 'next'; if there had been wide implementation and a good > specification of what MarkP did, I could see a strong argument for > using it. > > As it is, no one has even noticed it had similarity to this proposal > until a few days ago, and it looks like there are a number of people > who have strong feelings each way. > > OTOH, how specific the relation is *is* a technical issue; could you > expand on what you see as the 'tower of babel' problem? > > My concern is that if there is more than one use of a link relation > like 'next' or 'prev', those uses could conflict. For example, if I > use 'prev' for Feed History, will that cause a problem with feeds > using Amazon OpenSearch if they want to use it in a slightly > different way? To put it in Thomas' terms, what if there are > different concepts of paging using the same terms -- which there seem > to be already? > > This shows up perfectly with the whole "next or previous?" > discussion. If we don't assign specific, functional semantics to the > links, people will interpret -- and use -- them differently. > > This is why I'm leaning towards "prev-archive". > > > On 17/10/2005, at 1:15 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: > >> On 10/17/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> >>> >>> I already get the same results with just one link relation -- 'prev- >>> archive' -- instead of three. >>> >> >> Why should one prefer your proposal to what's in this feed: >> http://diveintomark.org/xml/2004/03/index.atom >> >> 'prev-archive' is more specific, and I think that's a bad thing. It >> seems to introduce tower of babel problems. >> >> Robert Sayre >> >> > > > -- > Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 18:06:29 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERd7k-0004SC-Vv for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:06:29 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA09870 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:06:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HLxuCd079053; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:59:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HLxuud079052; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:59:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HLxq1N079045 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:59:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:01:54 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 07:59:50 +1000 Subject: Re: Feed History -04 From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 18/10/05 7:10 AM, "James Holderness" wrote: > Personally I wouldn't care at all except for one reason. There exists a > published "specification" that defines "next" as pointing to the next most > recent archive, and at least one feed that follows that spec. Whatever is > decided for the new protocol I would feel obliged to support that old > protocol as well. If the two disagree that makes the process somewhat more > complicated. That article was written for Atom 0.3. We are now Atom 1.0. That particular feed which happens to follow that so-called spec is also Atom 0.3, which is of course deprecated. I've been amusing myself with a thought experiment this morning too. Say I had a set of feed documents, all arranged from "hottest" to "coldest" using @rel='hotter' and @rel='colder'. There are no other links in the feed documents. Say for the sake of argument that the most efficient manner for an aggregator to traverse that set is to start from the hottest, and proceed towards the coldest. Remember, there are only two @rel values in the feed: 'hotter' and 'colder'. Which links should the aggregator follow: (a) @rel='hotter' (b) @rel='colder' (c) @rel='next' > Everything else you say, while perfectly reasonable, does not inspire me to > accept the extra effort involved without at least a mild protest. All those 0.3 feeds should disappear in due course. That article was specifically addressing Atom 0.3, and so too should not be relied on. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 18:23:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERdNt-0001k4-4O for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:23:09 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA10717 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:23:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HMERs8080672; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:14:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HMERcc080671; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:14:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HMEQJO080664 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:14:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (uswaef01.bea.com [12.130.8.219]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B83253D3A8; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:13:39 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <43541E9E.80002@gmail.com> References: <4353F21E.7030206@cegetel.net> <4A08C2D9-437B-4615-8841-BD0396906A3F@bea.com> <4353FD94.5010206@gmail.com> <68fba5c50510171315g32e74b1bi5329b8e5bae435e3@mail.gmail.com> <0FE04CCF-527A-421E-8708-806E5C229ED7@mnot.net> <43541E9E.80002@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Robert Sayre , Thomas Broyer , James Holderness , Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Are Generic Link Relations Always a Good Idea? [was: Feed History -04] Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:13:36 -0700 To: James M Snell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would too, but getting to "the basic function is the same" requires a lot of foresight, if not luck. This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but this discussion has taken shades of the absurd for a while now -- it seems like people are solving theoretical, not actual, problems. I have a concrete use case that I want to solve, and real users and implementers who want it solved. I get nervous when people try to fit it into some grand architectural sketch of how things *should* work that they have in mind; in my experience, such efforts rarely pay off, and often fail. On 17/10/2005, at 2:58 PM, James M Snell wrote: > Generally speaking, if the semantic difference between the use of > next/prev in one feed relative to another can be expressed using a > separate extension (e.g. the presence of an incremental=true or a > profile attribute or whatever else may come up, then I would favor > the use of the generic mechanism assuming that the basic function > is the same. -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 18:27:45 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERdSL-0002xH-9n for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:27:45 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA10976 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:27:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HMEU6U080691; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:14:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HMEUX2080690; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:14:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HMETxj080676 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:14:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (uswaef01.bea.com [12.130.8.219]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5219C3D3EB; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:14:27 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <43541DB3.2080206@gmail.com> References: <68fba5c50510171205t7d19fcbav5b27fabecd347b95@mail.gmail.com> <4353FC1A.7030701@gmail.com> <43541DB3.2080206@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <9E5FC07D-BD94-4781-868B-2F71CE567847@mnot.net> Cc: Robert Sayre , Byrne Reese , Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: New Link Relations? [was: Feed History -04] Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:14:16 -0700 To: James M Snell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good point. On 17/10/2005, at 2:54 PM, James M Snell wrote: > +1. An additional security concern would be the potential for > circular references -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 18:28:47 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERdTL-0003g9-6Y for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:28:47 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA11032 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:28:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HMLCA2081168; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:21:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HMLC2n081167; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:21:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HMLBO9081161 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:21:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i28so898594nzi for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:21:11 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Ml4nWaR5RuguxhSL3afxRAnKJ+7nwp7BtnV9/gm0Jc0N50RtBa5+qJ1Z6ux3gIHNLoxGDwIXQremxs7+7DOkMjdjIdhZ3h0c82m1hawtqwt1DBNN3xwJ0LGk9SsuM2OU+O1opPWAFqj5hn5FBdLL8jWh+63KSoiEsbjpEE3y898= Received: by 10.36.227.43 with SMTP id z43mr1229628nzg; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.12.27 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c50510171521y4cb6e4afl31efa9a787bb8c83@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:21:11 -0400 From: Robert Sayre To: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Are Generic Link Relations Always a Good Idea? [was: Feed History -04] Cc: James M Snell , Thomas Broyer , James Holderness , Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: <0FE04CCF-527A-421E-8708-806E5C229ED7@mnot.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <4353F21E.7030206@cegetel.net> <4A08C2D9-437B-4615-8841-BD0396906A3F@bea.com> <4353FD94.5010206@gmail.com> <68fba5c50510171315g32e74b1bi5329b8e5bae435e3@mail.gmail.com> <0FE04CCF-527A-421E-8708-806E5C229ED7@mnot.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9HMLBO9081162 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/17/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Robert, > > It's a matter of personal preference as to whether one likes 'prev' > or 'next'; if there had been wide implementation and a good > specification of what MarkP did, I could see a strong argument for > using it. I think the spec is perfectly clear. Is there something about it you don't understand? I do think your addition of an indicator that the feed is an archive is a good idea. I have to disagree with your characterization of deployment. Most AtomAPI implementations work this way--see for example typepad.com. > My concern is that if there is more than one use of a link relation > like 'next' or 'prev', those uses could conflict. For example, if I > use 'prev' for Feed History, will that cause a problem with feeds > using Amazon OpenSearch if they want to use it in a slightly > different way? To put it in Thomas' terms, what if there are > different concepts of paging using the same terms -- which there seem > to be already? > > This shows up perfectly with the whole "next or previous?" > discussion. If we don't assign specific, functional semantics to the > links, people will interpret -- and use -- them differently. Folks who have written Atom clients know which way 'next' points. > > This is why I'm leaning towards "prev-archive". Mmm. I think 'prev-archive' means exactly the same thing that 'next' does in the feeds you're describing, and people will certainly use it in ways that don't reflect whatever you lay out in the spec. They will look at a feed, and think "oh, I use prev-archive to get the next 10". I know for a fact that other feeds So, now we have two ways to say the same thing -- The Tower of Babel problem. http://tantek.com/log/2005/07.html#towerofbabelproblem Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 18:48:40 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERdma-0002af-KS for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:48:40 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA12570 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:48:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HMf6Xd082937; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:41:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HMf6Fc082936; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:41:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav16.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.88]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HMf6Yh082919 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:41:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:41:01 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV16.phx.gbl with DAV; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:41:00 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: Subject: Re: Feed History -04 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:40:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Oct 2005 22:41:01.0174 (UTC) FILETIME=[D95E8960:01C5D36B] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Scheid wrote: > I've been amusing myself with a thought experiment this morning too. Say I > had a set of feed documents, all arranged from "hottest" to "coldest" > using > @rel='hotter' and @rel='colder'. There are no other links in the feed > documents. Say for the sake of argument that the most efficient manner for > an aggregator to traverse that set is to start from the hottest, and > proceed > towards the coldest. > > Remember, there are only two @rel values in the feed: 'hotter' and > 'colder'. > > Which links should the aggregator follow: In the interests of past and future compatibility, my currently implementation looks like this: 1. In the subscription document, look for a link with a type of "application/atom+xml", a non-empty href, and with any of the following rel values: "next", "prev", "prev-archive", "hotter", "colder". 2. If any such link exists, consider it a pointer to the most recent archive. 3. To find the next most recent archive, search the current archive for a link with the same rel attribute as established in step 1. Can't fail. ;) In the interests of my sanity, I'm bowing out of this discussion now. Whatever is decided I will implement it. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 19:14:50 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EReBu-0004Si-61 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:14:50 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA14013 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:14:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HN7Mp0085817; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:07:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HN7M8L085816; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:07:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf01.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.68]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HN7KqE085778 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:07:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.6.169.92]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 170245994DB; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 01:07:15 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <43542EA3.1040303@cegetel.net> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 01:07:15 +0200 From: Thomas Broyer User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.4 (Windows/20050908) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: New Link Relations? [was: Feed History -04] References: <68fba5c50510171205t7d19fcbav5b27fabecd347b95@mail.gmail.com> <4353FC1A.7030701@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id TAA14013 Mark Nottingham wrote: > - Attribute Value: prev > - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed=20 > document containing entries that sequentially precede those in the=20 > current document. Note that the exact nature of the ordering between=20 > the entries and documents containing them is not defined by this=20 > relation; i.e., this relation is only relative. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: Because automated agents may follow this=20 > link relation to construct a 'virtual' feed, care should be taken when=20 > it crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a different=20 > authority than the current document). > > - Attribute Value: next > - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed=20 > document containing entries that sequentially follow those in the=20 > current document. Note that the exact nature of the ordering between=20 > the entries and documents containing them is not defined by this=20 > relation; i.e., this relation is only relative. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: Because automated agents may follow this=20 > link relation to construct a 'virtual' feed, care should be taken when=20 > it crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a different=20 > authority than the current document). > > - Attribute Value: first > - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed=20 > document containing those entries furthest preceding those in the=20 > current document at the time it was minted. Note that the exact nature=20 > of the ordering between the entries and documents containing them is=20 > not defined by this relation; i.e., this relation is only relative. > - Expected display characteristics: > - Security considerations: > > - Attribute Value: last > - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed=20 > document containing those entries furthest following those in the=20 > current document at the time it was minted. Note that the exact nature=20 > of the ordering between the entries and documents containing them is=20 > not defined by this relation; i.e., this relation is only relative. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: +0.5 (adding the circular references issue raised by James), because=20 some people will use "first" to link to the "live" feed (the one you=20 subscribe to) and "next" to link to the first archive document and so=20 on, and some will use "last" and "prev" for the exact same roles=85 The given definition is not precise enough. And wrt "prev", why not "previous"? both could also be registered as=20 aliases=85 > - Attribute Value: subscribe > - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed=20 > document containing the most recent entries in the feed. This URI is=20 > intended to be subscribed to to keep abreast of changes in the feed.=20 > When different from the URI of the feed document it exists in, it=20 > indicates a URi that should be used for this purpose in place of the=20 > current document's URI. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: Users should always be informed of the=20 > actual URI they are subscribing to, and subscription should only take=20 > place when it is explicitly requested. Depends whether @rel=3D"self" was really meant for subscribing and the=20 spec wording is not precise enough about it; this could then be fixed=20 with an errata rather than create a new link relation=85 Otherwise, +0.5, because it seems to overlap @rel=3D"first" (or "last"?) = =96=20 or I missed something=85 --=20 Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 19:23:06 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EReJu-0006W0-CU for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:23:06 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA14472 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:22:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HNEkDN086420; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:14:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HNEkxs086419; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:14:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HNEk0Z086413 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:14:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id q18so1087521qba for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:14:45 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=NwxpzW85pp/SCq9ohSyZPAGPYP5r7kPVURXw4M/7fmfZrXdDdv5oCUzcyenuIQDxXPBH/RYToHPFqEGhWsBYmLyI38xWW5c8dIRtaNSfSwNY+5TWEZPOGO4lS+N+7Y+8eIDaXHoZXo+2G3gEtREHHtmberyhVoU0y+Al/AWf+Bo= Received: by 10.65.93.3 with SMTP id v3mr2466817qbl; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id d2sm581924qbc.2005.10.17.16.14.44; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43543063.30607@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:14:43 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thomas Broyer CC: Mark Nottingham , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: New Link Relations? [was: Feed History -04] References: <68fba5c50510171205t7d19fcbav5b27fabecd347b95@mail.gmail.com> <4353FC1A.7030701@gmail.com> <43542EA3.1040303@cegetel.net> In-Reply-To: <43542EA3.1040303@cegetel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id TAA14472 Thomas Broyer wrote: >> - Attribute Value: subscribe >> - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed=20 >> document containing the most recent entries in the feed. This URI is=20 >> intended to be subscribed to to keep abreast of changes in the feed.=20 >> When different from the URI of the feed document it exists in, it=20 >> indicates a URi that should be used for this purpose in place of the=20 >> current document's URI. >> - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. >> - Security considerations: Users should always be informed of the=20 >> actual URI they are subscribing to, and subscription should only take=20 >> place when it is explicitly requested. > > Depends whether @rel=3D"self" was really meant for subscribing and the=20 > spec wording is not precise enough about it; this could then be fixed=20 > with an errata rather than create a new link relation=85 > Otherwise, +0.5, because it seems to overlap @rel=3D"first" (or "last"?= )=20 > =96 or I missed something=85 > "self" should always point to the feed document containing the self=20 link. It makes no sense to have a "self" link in a feed that does not=20 point to itself. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 19:25:26 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EReM9-00077J-Si for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:25:26 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA14606 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:25:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HNHEIE086726; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:17:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HNHE5q086725; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:17:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HNHD9W086718 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:17:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (uswaef01.bea.com [12.130.8.219]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2B7D3D380; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:17:11 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <435423E8.7000505@cegetel.net> References: <4353F21E.7030206@cegetel.net> <4A08C2D9-437B-4615-8841-BD0396906A3F@bea.com> <4353FD94.5010206@gmail.com> <68fba5c50510171315g32e74b1bi5329b8e5bae435e3@mail.gmail.com> <0FE04CCF-527A-421E-8708-806E5C229ED7@mnot.net> <435423E8.7000505@cegetel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <5E445CE9-9607-47BF-A587-7B480371240B@mnot.net> Cc: Robert Sayre , James M Snell , James Holderness , Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Are Generic Link Relations Always a Good Idea? [was: Feed History -04] Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:17:05 -0700 To: Thomas Broyer X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9HNHD9W086719 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id TAA14606 They seem similar. But, what if you want to have more than one paging =20 semantic applied to a single feed, and those uses of paging don't =20 align? I.e., there's contention for prev/next? If no one shares my concern, I'll drop it... as long as I get to say =20 "I told you so" if/when this problem pops up :) On 17/10/2005, at 3:21 PM, Thomas Broyer wrote: > I don't think there are different concepts of paging. > > Paging is navigation through subsets (chunks) of a complete set of =20 > entries. > > If the complete set represents all the entries ever published =20 > through an ever-changing feed document (what a feed currently is, =20 > you subscribe with an URI and the document you get when =20 > dereferencing the URI changes as a sliding-window upon a set of =20 > entries), then paging allows for feed state reconstruction. > In other terms, feed state reconstruction is a facet of paging, an =20 > application to non-incremental feeds. > > > I think it's worth waiting consensus on previous/next or forwards/=20 > backwards, first/last or head/tail, etc. and having a "paging" spec =20 > (or just IANA registration, I don't really matter), and =20 > orthogonally define an fh:incremental extension (fh:incremental =20 > will just change newsreaders behavior, not the paging concept). > It seems James is having the same feeling=85 -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 19:25:29 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EReMD-000780-KR for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:25:29 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA14616 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:25:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HNJD6b086946; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:19:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HNJDJB086945; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:19:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.199]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HNJCQf086938 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:19:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id q18so1088410qba for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:19:12 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=OnuQ1axJy+zmoq6S+XCKjAki+uGoNKjoXATwMaKc9zcN3cHe8viBucN64rtR6jCXm/NcrlDco0Pi3GiS3N3+sQprp2jHtkXPmW2TiQYjcxmimZJb6iGkQauaj6V9nTq+/7CbhST3ESBXkzG6NbGHoLl+sOph/spj6L3fiFC8gfw= Received: by 10.65.196.16 with SMTP id y16mr2463283qbp; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:19:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e18sm1743204qbe.2005.10.17.16.19.10; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:19:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4354316D.2010304@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:19:09 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham CC: Thomas Broyer , Robert Sayre , James Holderness , Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Are Generic Link Relations Always a Good Idea? [was: Feed History -04] References: <4353F21E.7030206@cegetel.net> <4A08C2D9-437B-4615-8841-BD0396906A3F@bea.com> <4353FD94.5010206@gmail.com> <68fba5c50510171315g32e74b1bi5329b8e5bae435e3@mail.gmail.com> <0FE04CCF-527A-421E-8708-806E5C229ED7@mnot.net> <435423E8.7000505@cegetel.net> <5E445CE9-9607-47BF-A587-7B480371240B@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <5E445CE9-9607-47BF-A587-7B480371240B@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Nottingham wrote: > They seem similar. But, what if you want to have more than one paging > semantic applied to a single feed, and those uses of paging don't > align? I.e., there's contention for prev/next? > > If no one shares my concern, I'll drop it... as long as I get to say > "I told you so" if/when this problem pops up :) > Be sure to throw a "neener neener neener" into it and we're good to go ;-) - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 19:26:38 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EReNK-0007NB-0D for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:26:38 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA14713 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:26:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HMKNEm081132; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:20:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HMKNsO081131; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:20:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf01.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.68]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HMKM2Q081118 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:20:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.6.169.92]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D173599687; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 00:20:16 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <435423E8.7000505@cegetel.net> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 00:21:28 +0200 From: Thomas Broyer User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.4 (Windows/20050908) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Robert Sayre , James M Snell , James Holderness , Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Are Generic Link Relations Always a Good Idea? [was: Feed History -04] References: <4353F21E.7030206@cegetel.net> <4A08C2D9-437B-4615-8841-BD0396906A3F@bea.com> <4353FD94.5010206@gmail.com> <68fba5c50510171315g32e74b1bi5329b8e5bae435e3@mail.gmail.com> <0FE04CCF-527A-421E-8708-806E5C229ED7@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <0FE04CCF-527A-421E-8708-806E5C229ED7@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id TAA14713 Mark Nottingham wrote: > My concern is that if there is more than one use of a link relation=20 > like 'next' or 'prev', those uses could conflict. For example, if I=20 > use 'prev' for Feed History, will that cause a problem with feeds=20 > using Amazon OpenSearch if they want to use it in a slightly different=20 > way? To put it in Thomas' terms, what if there are different concepts=20 > of paging using the same terms -- which there seem to be already? I don't think there are different concepts of paging. Paging is navigation through subsets (chunks) of a complete set of entrie= s. If the complete set represents all the entries ever published through an=20 ever-changing feed document (what a feed currently is, you subscribe=20 with an URI and the document you get when dereferencing the URI changes=20 as a sliding-window upon a set of entries), then paging allows for feed=20 state reconstruction. In other terms, feed state reconstruction is a facet of paging, an=20 application to non-incremental feeds. I think it's worth waiting consensus on previous/next or=20 forwards/backwards, first/last or head/tail, etc. and having a "paging"=20 spec (or just IANA registration, I don't really matter), and=20 orthogonally define an fh:incremental extension (fh:incremental will=20 just change newsreaders behavior, not the paging concept). It seems James is having the same feeling=85 --=20 Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 19:26:55 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EReNb-0007QB-Pa for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:26:55 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA14725 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:26:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HNDx9K086377; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:13:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HNDwfB086376; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:13:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HNDv5S086369 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:13:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (uswaef01.bea.com [12.130.8.219]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA4CD3D3AC; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:13:20 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <68fba5c50510171521y4cb6e4afl31efa9a787bb8c83@mail.gmail.com> References: <4353F21E.7030206@cegetel.net> <4A08C2D9-437B-4615-8841-BD0396906A3F@bea.com> <4353FD94.5010206@gmail.com> <68fba5c50510171315g32e74b1bi5329b8e5bae435e3@mail.gmail.com> <0FE04CCF-527A-421E-8708-806E5C229ED7@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510171521y4cb6e4afl31efa9a787bb8c83@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <7B484271-9C8F-4DA8-B7DF-DE73ED3A90B2@mnot.net> Cc: James M Snell , Thomas Broyer , James Holderness , Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Are Generic Link Relations Always a Good Idea? [was: Feed History -04] Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:13:16 -0700 To: Robert Sayre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert, As I said before, if the WG can reach consensus, I'm happy with any old term. I hadn't seen Mark's proposal till a few days ago, and a mention in an xml.com does not, in my opinion, a spec-in-stone make. My only pushback on "next" is that to me, it seems counterintuititive -- same as your pushback on "prev." *shrug* The SixApart people have publicly pointed to FH, so I don't think they're particularly fussed about any particular approach other (not to put words in their mouth). I wasn't able to find a TP feed that uses rel="next"; do you have a link to one? If the WG registers a set of generic link relations (I still have that concern, but again, if there's consensus in the WG, I'm happy to abide by it), it effectively reduces FH to a users' guide for one use of those extensions, and would probably say something like "walk down and next or prev you see in the subscription feed." The only normative bit would probably be fh:incremental. Cheers, On 17/10/2005, at 3:21 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: > I think the spec is perfectly clear. Is there something about it you > don't understand? I do think your addition of an indicator that the > feed is an archive is a good idea. I have to disagree with your > characterization of deployment. Most AtomAPI implementations work this > way--see for example typepad.com. -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 19:32:53 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EReTN-0002C3-Ph for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:32:53 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA15708 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:32:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HNQuEu087537; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:26:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HNQuA0087536; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:26:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HNQtPs087529 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:26:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (uswaef01.bea.com [12.130.8.219]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 375F63D398; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:26:54 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <43542EA3.1040303@cegetel.net> References: <68fba5c50510171205t7d19fcbav5b27fabecd347b95@mail.gmail.com> <4353FC1A.7030701@gmail.com> <43542EA3.1040303@cegetel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Atom Syntax X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: New Link Relations? [was: Feed History -04] Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:26:48 -0700 To: Thomas Broyer X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9HNQuPs087531 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id TAA15708 On 17/10/2005, at 4:07 PM, Thomas Broyer wrote: >> >> - Attribute Value: first >> - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a =20 >> feed document containing those entries furthest preceding those in =20 >> the current document at the time it was minted. Note that the =20 >> exact nature of the ordering between the entries and documents =20 >> containing them is not defined by this relation; i.e., this =20 >> relation is only relative. >> - Expected display characteristics: >> - Security considerations: >> >> - Attribute Value: last >> - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a =20 >> feed document containing those entries furthest following those in =20 >> the current document at the time it was minted. Note that the =20 >> exact nature of the ordering between the entries and documents =20 >> containing them is not defined by this relation; i.e., this =20 >> relation is only relative. >> - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. >> - Security considerations: >> > +0.5 (adding the circular references issue raised by James), =20 > because some people will use "first" to link to the "live" feed =20 > (the one you subscribe to) and "next" to link to the first archive =20 > document and so on, and some will use "last" and "prev" for the =20 > exact same roles=85 > The given definition is not precise enough. "A stable URI" was intended to capture that, but I see that wasn't =20 good enough. How about: - Attribute Value: first - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed =20 document containing the set of entries furthest preceding those in =20 the current document at the time it was minted. The set of entries in =20 this document should not change over time; i.e., this link points to =20 a stable snapshot of entries, or an archive of feed entries. Note =20 that the exact nature of the ordering between the entries and =20 documents containing them is not defined by this relation; i.e., this =20 relation is only relative. - Expected display characteristics: ... - Security considerations: ... Another thought would be "first-archive", "last-archive", "prev-=20 archive" and "next-archive" (just expanding a previous thought). > And wrt "prev", why not "previous"? both could also be registered =20 > as aliases=85 I'd prefer one or the other; don't care much which it is, but two =20 seems wasteful. HTTP-WG didn't alias Referer even tho it's spelled =20 incorrectly, for example. That worked out OK. >> - Attribute Value: subscribe >> - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a =20 >> feed document containing the most recent entries in the feed. This =20 >> URI is intended to be subscribed to to keep abreast of changes in =20 >> the feed. When different from the URI of the feed document it =20 >> exists in, it indicates a URi that should be used for this purpose =20 >> in place of the current document's URI. >> - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. >> - Security considerations: Users should always be informed of the =20 >> actual URI they are subscribing to, and subscription should only =20 >> take place when it is explicitly requested. >> > Depends whether @rel=3D"self" was really meant for subscribing and =20 > the spec wording is not precise enough about it; this could then be =20 > fixed with an errata rather than create a new link relation=85 I think there's value in the current reading of "self"; it's =20 sometimes useful for a document to know what URI it's available at. =20 Also, when it occurs in another feed, "self" is a very non-obvious =20 name for what's happening. > Otherwise, +0.5, because it seems to overlap @rel=3D"first" (or =20 > "last"?) =96 or I missed something=85 I think we're kind of short on use cases for first and last, but =20 people seem to want them. 'subscribe' is more explicit; as they're =20 written, 'first' and 'last' should definately NOT be subscribed to =20 (because the set of entries in them won't change). Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 19:36:31 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EReWs-0003tR-Qr for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:36:31 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA16012 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:36:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HNTJBU087709; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:29:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HNTJGN087708; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:29:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HNTIwq087681 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:29:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (203.30.247.2) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:30:53 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:28:49 +1000 Subject: Re: New Link Relations? [was: Feed History -04] From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <43542EA3.1040303@cegetel.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9HNTJwq087703 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id TAA16012 On 18/10/05 9:07 AM, "Thomas Broyer" wrote: > Depends whether @rel=3D"self" was really meant for subscribing and the > spec wording is not precise enough about it; this could then be fixed > with an errata rather than create a new link relation=8A IIRC, it came into existence to solve the feed subscription problem. However, I don't recall that the issue of feed archives featured much in that discussion, and that thus the now understood problem of 'self' vs 'subscribe' wasn't envisaged. Fortunately, the link relation 'self' was defined in such a woolly way we could get away with re-purposing it. A few articles here or there, a bit = of blog chatter, and the arrival of the fabled Developers Guide and we'd be set. I'd think this would be favourable to having to come up with a different pair of relations, like 'self' =3D what you subscribe to, may not look anything like the chunk in front of you 'this-chunk' =3D link to what you are looking at, not to be confused with 'self' (Maybe the Developers Guide will have a chapter called "Up Is Down - The = New Reality", which would explain that a link to 'self' doesn't, we use 'next= ' to go backwards, and 'alternate' for feed discovery may not point to actu= al alternates of the content in front of you ;-) > Otherwise, +0.5, because it seems to overlap @rel=3D"first" (or "last"?= ) =AD > or I missed something=8A There's nothing wrong with having an overlap like this, because they don'= t always overlap. Consider the 'subscribe' link to nature.com/nm/ which I described earlier - two different URIs, but the same eventual document. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 19:42:31 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERech-0007gP-DM for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:42:31 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA16299 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:42:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HNaN9X088295; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:36:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HNaNbe088294; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:36:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HNaMli088288 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:36:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (uswaef01.bea.com [12.130.8.219]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F8423D398; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:36:20 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <4354316D.2010304@gmail.com> References: <4353F21E.7030206@cegetel.net> <4A08C2D9-437B-4615-8841-BD0396906A3F@bea.com> <4353FD94.5010206@gmail.com> <68fba5c50510171315g32e74b1bi5329b8e5bae435e3@mail.gmail.com> <0FE04CCF-527A-421E-8708-806E5C229ED7@mnot.net> <435423E8.7000505@cegetel.net> <5E445CE9-9607-47BF-A587-7B480371240B@mnot.net> <4354316D.2010304@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <35228149-B09C-4867-A708-6C8F1F9733B3@mnot.net> Cc: Thomas Broyer , Robert Sayre , James Holderness , Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Are Generic Link Relations Always a Good Idea? [was: Feed History -04] Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:36:17 -0700 To: James M Snell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oh, no. I'd never sink to *those* depths! On 17/10/2005, at 4:19 PM, James M Snell wrote: > Mark Nottingham wrote: > > >> They seem similar. But, what if you want to have more than one >> paging semantic applied to a single feed, and those uses of >> paging don't align? I.e., there's contention for prev/next? >> >> If no one shares my concern, I'll drop it... as long as I get to >> say "I told you so" if/when this problem pops up :) >> >> > Be sure to throw a "neener neener neener" into it and we're good to > go ;-) > > - James > > -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 19:47:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERehC-0000Lk-CN for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:47:10 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA16546 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:47:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HNg95t088819; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:42:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HNg92G088818; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:42:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HNg8Od088812 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:42:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id m21so884891qbe for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:42:08 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=MuLHURiwoMvTmGYOGP6h9hD0ntm/lPvGE+tRoS6EWPaDxhXZs0ApkGRfbkZZPOKN8xtird4ZOnfEXhKzS4ljB3/Xq6sqhmz18+qCWIGNaiEvBIhLv6Mvm3ltfoE1v5HaSRduPN92xs0eqHFtehAnXY6XAIGYaDFUnIAPahZszOk= Received: by 10.64.250.20 with SMTP id x20mr2506645qbh; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e17sm9041434qbe.2005.10.17.16.42.06; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:42:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <435436CC.1070109@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:42:04 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham CC: Thomas Broyer , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: New Link Relations? [was: Feed History -04] References: <68fba5c50510171205t7d19fcbav5b27fabecd347b95@mail.gmail.com> <4353FC1A.7030701@gmail.com> <43542EA3.1040303@cegetel.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id TAA16546 Mark Nottingham wrote: > > "A stable URI" was intended to capture that, but I see that wasn't =20 > good enough. How about: > > - Attribute Value: first > - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed =20 > document containing the set of entries furthest preceding those in =20 > the current document at the time it was minted. The set of entries in =20 > this document should not change over time; i.e., this link points to =20 > a stable snapshot of entries, or an archive of feed entries. Note =20 > that the exact nature of the ordering between the entries and =20 > documents containing them is not defined by this relation; i.e., this =20 > relation is only relative. > - Expected display characteristics: ... > - Security considerations: ... > > Another thought would be "first-archive", "last-archive", "prev-=20 > archive" and "next-archive" (just expanding a previous thought). > > -1. The first/next/prev/last link rels should not specify any=20 restrictions on how the contents of the feeds should or should not be=20 updated. If a specific use of these link rels wishes to impose such a=20 restriction (e.g. for feed history), then great, so-be-it, but the link=20 rels themselves should not. >> And wrt "prev", why not "previous"? both could also be registered as=20 >> aliases=85 > > > I'd prefer one or the other; don't care much which it is, but two =20 > seems wasteful. HTTP-WG didn't alias Referer even tho it's spelled =20 > incorrectly, for example. That worked out OK. > +1, it doesn't matter... but I do prefer "previous" because I don't like=20 abbreviations in things like this > >> Otherwise, +0.5, because it seems to overlap @rel=3D"first" (or =20 >> "last"?) =96 or I missed something=85 > > > I think we're kind of short on use cases for first and last, but =20 > people seem to want them. 'subscribe' is more explicit; as they're =20 > written, 'first' and 'last' should definately NOT be subscribed to =20 > (because the set of entries in them won't change). > +1 - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 19:54:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERenx-0003Ih-NW for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:54:10 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA16880 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:54:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HNcElX088429; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:38:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HNcEDf088428; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:38:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.196]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HNcDRk088421 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:38:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i28so904865nzi for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:38:13 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=HXwM1Y19yLsdc7mOx3HM5MIVsQakkbbIeeyt7Tcle+syh8wIm1HvfWvMgvBomM6BMD0xrSKmas9PsBBWWI2OPoXkYkUHK7gkDPdm7O8j9akL2CzW31pTqtniz1yrIyR8J1I8QEStISIuEjnWFoMumTPC97VMDm/VGmyiDLKwCHc= Received: by 10.36.148.9 with SMTP id v9mr823983nzd; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.12.27 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c50510171638l17044c7bh4d87fea8d14881ce@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:38:13 -0400 From: Robert Sayre To: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Are Generic Link Relations Always a Good Idea? [was: Feed History -04] Cc: James M Snell , Thomas Broyer , James Holderness , Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: <7B484271-9C8F-4DA8-B7DF-DE73ED3A90B2@mnot.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <4353F21E.7030206@cegetel.net> <4A08C2D9-437B-4615-8841-BD0396906A3F@bea.com> <4353FD94.5010206@gmail.com> <68fba5c50510171315g32e74b1bi5329b8e5bae435e3@mail.gmail.com> <0FE04CCF-527A-421E-8708-806E5C229ED7@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510171521y4cb6e4afl31efa9a787bb8c83@mail.gmail.com> <7B484271-9C8F-4DA8-B7DF-DE73ED3A90B2@mnot.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9HNcDRk088423 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/17/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: > The SixApart people have publicly pointed to FH, Cool! > so I don't think > they're particularly fussed about any particular approach other (not > to put words in their mouth). Did you miss Byrne's post? > I wasn't able to find a TP feed that > uses rel="next"; do you have a link to one? They use them in their AtomAPI implementation, not the public feeds. points to the 20 newest entries. There's a link rel="next" in there that points to the next 20 entries. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 20:00:48 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EReuM-0005PR-GJ for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:00:48 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA17238 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:00:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HNsSol089895; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:54:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HNsSRb089894; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:54:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ussjmh01.bea.com (ussjmh01.bea.com [63.96.162.5]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HNsR4Q089887 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:54:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from markn@bea.com) Received: from ussjfe01.amer.bea.com (ussjfe01b.bea.com [172.16.120.57]) by ussjmh01.bea.com (Switch-3.0.5/Switch-3.0.0) with ESMTP id j9HNsJvj029544; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:54:26 -0700 Received: from USSFEX01.amer.bea.com ([10.32.0.56]) by ussjfe01.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:53:30 -0700 Received: from [172.16.1.2] ([172.24.28.34]) by USSFEX01.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:53:30 -0700 In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <7D82D8EB-66C0-4B06-B081-7C4F7429E0C7@bea.com> Cc: Atom Syntax X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: New Link Relations? [was: Feed History -04] Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:53:25 -0700 To: Eric Scheid X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Oct 2005 23:53:30.0142 (UTC) FILETIME=[F98E63E0:01C5D375] X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.2.0, Antispam-Data: 2005.10.17.29 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9HNsR4Q089888 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id UAA17238 So what happens when you need the rel=3D"self" (as currently defined) =20 of an archive feed? On 17/10/2005, at 4:28 PM, Eric Scheid wrote: > > On 18/10/05 9:07 AM, "Thomas Broyer" wrote: > > >> Depends whether @rel=3D"self" was really meant for subscribing and the >> spec wording is not precise enough about it; this could then be fixed >> with an errata rather than create a new link relation=85 >> > > IIRC, it came into existence to solve the feed subscription problem. > However, I don't recall that the issue of feed archives featured =20 > much in > that discussion, and that thus the now understood problem of 'self' vs > 'subscribe' wasn't envisaged. > > Fortunately, the link relation 'self' was defined in such a woolly =20 > way we > could get away with re-purposing it. A few articles here or there, =20 > a bit of > blog chatter, and the arrival of the fabled Developers Guide and =20 > we'd be > set. > > I'd think this would be favourable to having to come up with a =20 > different > pair of relations, like > > 'self' =3D what you subscribe to, > may not look anything like the chunk in front of =20 > you > > 'this-chunk' =3D link to what you are looking at, > not to be confused with 'self' > > (Maybe the Developers Guide will have a chapter called "Up Is Down =20 > - The New > Reality", which would explain that a link to 'self' doesn't, we use =20 > 'next' > to go backwards, and 'alternate' for feed discovery may not point =20 > to actual > alternates of the content in front of you ;-) > > >> Otherwise, +0.5, because it seems to overlap @rel=3D"first" (or =20 >> "last"?) =96 >> or I missed something=85 >> > > There's nothing wrong with having an overlap like this, because =20 > they don't > always overlap. Consider the 'subscribe' link to nature.com/nm/ =20 > which I > described earlier - two different URIs, but the same eventual =20 > document. > > e. > > > > -- Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist Office of the CTO BEA Systems _________________________________________________________________________= _______ BEAWorld 2005: coming to a city near you. Everything you need for SOA an= d enterprise infrastructure success. =20 Register now at http://www.bea.com/4beaworld =20 London 11-12 Oct| Paris13-14 Oct| Prague18-19 Oct |Tokyo 25-26 Oct| Beiji= ng 7-8 Dec From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 20:01:15 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EReup-0005Rd-Bt for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:01:15 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA17294 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:01:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HNtJ5r089982; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:55:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9HNtJEl089981; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:55:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9HNtJx3089972 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:55:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (uswaef01.bea.com [12.130.8.219]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEEC43D380; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:55:17 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <435436CC.1070109@gmail.com> References: <68fba5c50510171205t7d19fcbav5b27fabecd347b95@mail.gmail.com> <4353FC1A.7030701@gmail.com> <43542EA3.1040303@cegetel.net> <435436CC.1070109@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Thomas Broyer , Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: New Link Relations? [was: Feed History -04] Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:55:11 -0700 To: James M Snell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The intent here was to say that the *set* of entries is generally stable, not that they're set in stone. That's what you want, no? If so, how about: - Attribute Value: first - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed document containing the set of entries furthest preceding those in the current document at the time it was minted. This can be thought of as specific to those entries; in other words, it represents a fixed section of the feed, rather than a sliding window over it. Note that the exact nature of the ordering between the entries and documents containing them is not defined by this relation; i.e., this relation is only relative. - Expected display characteristics: ... - Security considerations: ... It's a hard line to walk. On 17/10/2005, at 4:42 PM, James M Snell wrote: >> "A stable URI" was intended to capture that, but I see that >> wasn't good enough. How about: >> >> - Attribute Value: first >> - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a >> feed document containing the set of entries furthest preceding >> those in the current document at the time it was minted. The set >> of entries in this document should not change over time; i.e., >> this link points to a stable snapshot of entries, or an archive >> of feed entries. Note that the exact nature of the ordering >> between the entries and documents containing them is not defined >> by this relation; i.e., this relation is only relative. >> - Expected display characteristics: ... >> - Security considerations: ... >> >> Another thought would be "first-archive", "last-archive", "prev- >> archive" and "next-archive" (just expanding a previous thought). >> >> >> > -1. The first/next/prev/last link rels should not specify any > restrictions on how the contents of the feeds should or should not > be updated. If a specific use of these link rels wishes to impose > such a restriction (e.g. for feed history), then great, so-be-it, > but the link rels themselves should not. -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 20:22:32 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERfFO-0004yD-Bm for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:22:32 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA18459 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:22:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I0EJfl091682; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:14:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9I0EJDv091681; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:14:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.196]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I0EIWn091675 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:14:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id m21so891780qbe for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:14:17 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=lrk3/iaiRqfMItEOG9chP359GNu8njH3RiwIgzhcj0zy10tWH+cf1qOJe6V9r0JFdlcehAfAP5rAaJ9b2SW6eS9+H2btsjqo1z+lGj5MYmSMhNJBKQ7rAl3dC1ZBO7gJ3HOPhWOxGiLoRdYCIUf7469TEAEOnKH8nh8TUAtllsQ= Received: by 10.64.204.12 with SMTP id b12mr2517701qbg; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:14:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id d12sm8139628qbc.2005.10.17.17.14.16; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:14:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43543E56.1080005@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:14:14 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham CC: Thomas Broyer , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: New Link Relations? [was: Feed History -04] References: <68fba5c50510171205t7d19fcbav5b27fabecd347b95@mail.gmail.com> <4353FC1A.7030701@gmail.com> <43542EA3.1040303@cegetel.net> <435436CC.1070109@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Nottingham wrote: > The intent here was to say that the *set* of entries is generally > stable, not that they're set in stone. That's what you want, no? If > so, how about: > > - Attribute Value: first > - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed > document containing the set of entries furthest preceding those in > the current document at the time it was minted. This can be thought > of as specific to those entries; in other words, it represents a > fixed section of the feed, rather than a sliding window over it. Note > that the exact nature of the ordering between the entries and > documents containing them is not defined by this relation; i.e., this > relation is only relative. > - Expected display characteristics: ... > - Security considerations: ... > > It's a hard line to walk. > Hmm.. better than before. It would be better if you left it at the "at the time it was minted" part and left out the sentence that follows. But I can live with it. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 20:25:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERfI7-0006eE-JK for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:25:19 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA18560 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:25:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I0J6rP092604; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:19:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9I0J69M092603; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:19:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from xproxy.gmail.com (xproxy.gmail.com [66.249.82.201]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I0J5Sc092596 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:19:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rogben@gmail.com) Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id s14so869945wxc for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:19:05 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=a97HJAy3Zn4ixRCLU1l5nCM0QHs17HgwU3rQYf7qEekU6+tUWXVBkZEYlhj95J8/O8Rxaaa2yi1fZE8HuJp00HBQ60CrhMVdNQ1OC5xPpaGz8y9PJMsYcw09x40fPbSVZKZ6qGExxpWb/W/7IViAptpHy232Dvu3zVWS7bGIT48= Received: by 10.70.17.19 with SMTP id 19mr2520887wxq; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.48.15 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <540e37320510171719g62d3c5akaa49789a743b7124@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:19:05 -0500 From: "Roger B." To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Atom Comments Extension In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <431FC0A9.1080109@gmail.com> <20051013202326.GB9230@klangraum> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9I0J6Sc092597 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I believe that's because they're not necessarily expected to be derived > from Atom Entry IDs. Agreed. I've been making experimental use of the extension with RSS, and will continue to do so... no Atom IDs in sight. -- Roger Benningfield From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 22:39:42 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERhOA-00016W-2M for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:39:42 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA25949 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I2SkSJ008505; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:28:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9I2SkxL008504; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:28:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9I2SiRc008484 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:28:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 18 Oct 2005 02:28:38 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-250-41.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.250.41] by mail.gmx.net (mp012) with SMTP; 18 Oct 2005 04:28:38 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 04:28:50 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Atom Comments Extension Message-ID: <20051018022850.GC10091@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <431FC0A9.1080109@gmail.com> <20051013202326.GB9230@klangraum> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id WAA25949 * Justin Fletcher [2005-10-14 23:00]: > If any additional wording is necessary, then it should be > explicit that it only relates to the media type of > 'application/atom+xml'. It is, in my opinion, redundant to say > this because ID reference for a application/atom+xml document > is the Atom Entry ID. Other media types would use their own > forms of identifiers. Well yes, you=E2=80=99re right. But I=E2=80=99d really want to see at lea= st *some* explicit mention of using Atom IDs as idrefs somewhere in the spec. However redundant it may seem, I=E2=80=99d feel more comfortable if it wasn=E2=80=99t merely implied. F.ex., say you=E2=80=99re replying to one of Tim=E2=80=99s ongoing entrie= s. This means @idref will be a HTTP URI. If someone views source and concludes he should put the permalink in there, what would you tell them? It works with Tim=E2=80=99s feed and there=E2=80=99s nothing i= n the spec which says what they=E2=80=99re doing is wrong either. But if consumers expect entry IDs in there, it will fail if they start replying to feeds using some other form of URI for their IDs. This clearly is an interoperability issue. In fact, now that I think about it, it seems that recognising that this extension should be applicable beyond Atom doesn=E2=80=99t mean it should be less explicit about what to use for identifiers, but rather should be more so: it should explicitly mention what should be used as an identifiert when replying to items from RSS feeds as well. (Eg. use the GUID as an idref when available, otherwise use the permalink as a href.) Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 23:03:38 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERhlK-0000zN-3N for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:03:38 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA27387 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:03:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I2rwHq012123; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:53:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9I2rwOE012122; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:53:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I2rvx3012098 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:53:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <2005101802531401500p130le>; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 02:53:16 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: <5E445CE9-9607-47BF-A587-7B480371240B@mnot.net> References: <4353F21E.7030206@cegetel.net> <4A08C2D9-437B-4615-8841-BD0396906A3F@bea.com> <4353FD94.5010206@gmail.com> <68fba5c50510171315g32e74b1bi5329b8e5bae435e3@mail.gmail.com> <0FE04CCF-527A-421E-8708-806E5C229ED7@mnot.net> <435423E8.7000505@cegetel.net> <5E445CE9-9607-47BF-A587-7B480371240B@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Are Generic Link Relations Always a Good Idea? [was: Feed History -04] Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:53:12 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Oct 17, 2005, at 5:17 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > They seem similar. But, what if you want to have more than one > paging semantic applied to a single feed, and those uses of paging > don't align? I.e., there's contention for prev/next? > > If no one shares my concern, I'll drop it... as long as I get to > say "I told you so" if/when this problem pops up :) I share your concern. > On 17/10/2005, at 3:21 PM, Thomas Broyer wrote: >> I don't think there are different concepts of paging. >> >> Paging is navigation through subsets (chunks) of a complete set of >> entries. Yeah, but what if you need what amounts to a multi-dimensional array. The method of addressing each dimension has to be distinguishable from the others. >> If the complete set represents all the entries ever published >> through an ever-changing feed document (what a feed currently is, >> you subscribe with an URI and the document you get when >> dereferencing the URI changes as a sliding-window upon a set of >> entries), then paging allows for feed state reconstruction. >> In other terms, feed state reconstruction is a facet of paging, an >> application to non-incremental feeds. Let's say you're doing a feed for the Billboard top 100 songs. Each week, the entire contents of the feed are swapped out and replaced by a new top 100 (ie. it is a non-incremental feed). And let's say you don't want to put all 100 in the same document, but you want to break it up into 4 documents with 25 entries each. You now have two potential axes that people might want to traverse--from songs 1-25 to 26-50 to 51-75 to 76-100, or from this weeks 1-25 to last weeks 1-25 to two weeks ago's 1-25, etc. You can't link in both directions with the same "next". There are clearly two distinct concepts here--navigating through the chunks that make up the current state of the feed resource, and in a non-incremental feed, navigating though the historical states of the feed resource. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 23:04:03 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERhlj-0001Mq-Gs for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:04:03 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA27401 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:03:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I2vNLD012580; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:57:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9I2vNlX012579; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:57:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I2vLZl012568 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:57:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (203.30.247.2) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:59:23 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:57:20 +1000 Subject: Re: New Link Relations? [was: Feed History -04] From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7D82D8EB-66C0-4B06-B081-7C4F7429E0C7@bea.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 18/10/05 9:53 AM, "Mark Nottingham" wrote: > So what happens when you need the rel="self" (as currently defined) > of an archive feed? The current definition being ... The value "self" signifies that the IRI in the value of the href attribute identifies a resource equivalent to the containing element. thus a link with @rel='self' in the element would link to that archive feed document. Similarly, a link with @rel='self' in the element would link to a resource document of that particular entry. Thus (in context of ) 'self' = identifies a resource equivalent to this 'subscribe' = identifies the resource to subscribe to The same holds true for archive feeds and the current sliding window chunk, which makes life easier. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 23:33:58 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERiEg-0002XL-6V for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:33:58 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA28932 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:33:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I3QRaI015113; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:26:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9I3QRUe015111; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:26:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I3QQdn015103 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:26:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id a10so699340qbd for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:26:26 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=cubBEJDm3qIehsgMeMBBkhXEabdHU272j4IMLFgKU/WyvAaxTN4KmyxbEDxWix/aeMelZjeioxk2xW2vu/3q3o1Azaj/XHoKKgUB/JF2QG7RznVEE9zmz4Y7zE3Q0xIxF4tWS8GbprKe25MpuKy/glZFJvbbspXhrtmA5B/Fiic= Received: by 10.64.178.6 with SMTP id a6mr180591qbf; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e10sm2771575qbe.2005.10.17.20.26.26; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43546B5F.2040701@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:26:23 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "A. Pagaltzis" CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Atom Comments Extension References: <431FC0A9.1080109@gmail.com> <20051013202326.GB9230@klangraum> <20051018022850.GC10091@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20051018022850.GC10091@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id XAA28932 A. Pagaltzis wrote: >* Justin Fletcher [2005-10-14 23:00]: > =20 > >>If any additional wording is necessary, then it should be >>explicit that it only relates to the media type of >>'application/atom+xml'. It is, in my opinion, redundant to say >>this because ID reference for a application/atom+xml document >>is the Atom Entry ID. Other media types would use their own >>forms of identifiers. >> =20 >> > >Well yes, you=E2=80=99re right. But I=E2=80=99d really want to see at le= ast >*some* explicit mention of using Atom IDs as idrefs somewhere in >the spec. However redundant it may seem, I=E2=80=99d feel more >comfortable if it wasn=E2=80=99t merely implied. > > =20 > +1. I'll make that change >This clearly is an interoperability issue. > > =20 > +1 - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 17 23:38:55 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERiJT-0004hg-5U for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:38:55 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA29115 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:38:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I3VgeV015419; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:31:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9I3VgRR015418; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:31:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I3VfTJ015405 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:31:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from x-antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <20051018033131014000q87ke>; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 03:31:31 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: References: <68fba5c50510171205t7d19fcbav5b27fabecd347b95@mail.gmail.com> <4353FC1A.7030701@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: New Link Relations? [was: Feed History -04] Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:31:30 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Oct 17, 2005, at 3:44 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > On 17/10/2005, at 12:31 PM, James M Snell wrote: >> Debating how the entries are organized is fruitless. The Atom >> spec already states that the order of elements in the feed has no >> significance; trying to get an extension to retrofit order- >> significance into the feed is going to fail... just as I >> discovered with my Feed Index extension proposal. Here's what the spec says: "This specification assigns no significance to the order of atom:entry elements within the feed." ...but there may be some. ...but there's no action you can take based on it unless something else tells you what the significance is. ...which, yes, is very difficult to specify. For the purposes of this discussion, it doesn't matter what the order of atom:entry elements within a feed document is. But the order of chunks of atom:entry elements within a linked series of feed documents may have significance, and in fact, unless you just want to reconstruct the complete feed state, working with a series of feed documents with no specific order would be fairly unwieldy. Imagine paging though a feed of search results with no idea of whether you'd just jumped from the most to the least significant results, or to the second most significant results. Imagine trying to catch up on a fast-moving incremental feed without having any idea whether a link would take you to the first entries ever added to a feed or the one's you just missed. >> I do believe that a "last" link relation would be helpful for >> completeness ...and "last" certainly seems to imply SOME sort of ordering of chunks, even if we know nothing about the order of the entries in each chunk. To each of the following, perhaps we could add something to indicate that these link relations are all used to page through the current state of a feed, and not to navigate among various states of a feed. The fact that most people wouldn't have a clue what that means without some discussion of incremental and non-incremental feeds may be an argument for having a spec document to provide more explanation (rather than embedding an identical explanation in each Description). Example: "At any point in time, a feed may be represented by a series of Feed documents, each containing some of the entries that exist in the feed at that point in time. In other words, a feed may contain more entries than exist in the Feed document that one retrieves when dereferencing the subscription URI, and there may be other documents containing representations of those additional entries. The link relations defined in this specification are used to navigate between Feed documents containing pages or chunks of those entries which exist simultaneously within a feed. "Note that this specification does not address navigation between the current and previous states of a type of feed which does not simultaneously contain it's current and past entries. For example, a "Top 100 Songs" feed might at any point in time only contain entries for the top 100 songs for a single week, which entries may or may not be divided among a number of Feed documents. The entries for the top 100 songs from the previous week are not only no longer part of the Feed document or Feed documents representing the current state of the feed--they are no longer part of the feed at all. Another specification may describe a method of navigating between the current and previous states of such a feed. The link relations defined in this specification are only used to navigate between the various Feed documents representing any single state of such a feed." > - Attribute Value: prev > - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a > feed document containing entries that sequentially precede those in > the current document. Note that the exact nature of the ordering > between the entries and documents containing them is not defined by > this relation; i.e., this relation is only relative. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: Because automated agents may follow > this link relation to construct a 'virtual' feed, care should be > taken when it crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a > different authority than the current document). > > - Attribute Value: next > - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a > feed document containing entries that sequentially follow those in > the current document. Note that the exact nature of the ordering > between the entries and documents containing them is not defined by > this relation; i.e., this relation is only relative. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: Because automated agents may follow > this link relation to construct a 'virtual' feed, care should be > taken when it crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a > different authority than the current document). > > - Attribute Value: first > - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a > feed document containing those entries furthest preceding those in > the current document at the time it was minted. Note that the exact > nature of the ordering between the entries and documents containing > them is not defined by this relation; i.e., this relation is only > relative. > - Expected display characteristics: > - Security considerations: > > - Attribute Value: last > - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a > feed document containing those entries furthest following those in > the current document at the time it was minted. Note that the exact > nature of the ordering between the entries and documents containing > them is not defined by this relation; i.e., this relation is only > relative. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 00:25:00 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERj24-0001wi-Qm for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 00:25:00 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA01375 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 00:24:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I4HGXI022355; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:17:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9I4HGD0022354; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:17:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.197]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I4HFkH022348 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:17:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id a10so707454qbd for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:17:15 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=QcGiguSVSIGEq1ELTyVwwsBuoFyLkxfGUtYhuPjoOrjmdMp6AMUBZRX9hRF9hzgxciIHK3AYNj7Qytqq053ToYmTxVYaVnzgefN4CA1RnX0Bik7odxw62+qauyKC58FuxeHjo6rROzSviXkABjAyLOCUHo5fDHEltWNU/iUSqbY= Received: by 10.64.209.15 with SMTP id h15mr148738qbg; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:17:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id d12sm8268011qbc.2005.10.17.21.17.14; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43547747.8080402@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:17:11 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Antone Roundy CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: New Link Relations? [was: Feed History -04] References: <68fba5c50510171205t7d19fcbav5b27fabecd347b95@mail.gmail.com> <4353FC1A.7030701@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Antone Roundy wrote: > > On Oct 17, 2005, at 3:44 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> On 17/10/2005, at 12:31 PM, James M Snell wrote: >> >>> Debating how the entries are organized is fruitless. The Atom spec >>> already states that the order of elements in the feed has no >>> significance; trying to get an extension to retrofit order- >>> significance into the feed is going to fail... just as I discovered >>> with my Feed Index extension proposal. >> > Here's what the spec says: "This specification assigns no > significance to the order of atom:entry elements within the feed." > ...but there may be some. ...but there's no action you can take > based on it unless something else tells you what the significance > is. ...which, yes, is very difficult to specify. > Not only difficult to specify, impossible to enforce. There's no way we can expect implementations to preserve the order of entries > For the purposes of this discussion, it doesn't matter what the order > of atom:entry elements within a feed document is. But the order of > chunks of atom:entry elements within a linked series of feed > documents may have significance, and in fact, unless you just want to > reconstruct the complete feed state, working with a series of feed > documents with no specific order would be fairly unwieldy. Imagine > paging though a feed of search results with no idea of whether you'd > just jumped from the most to the least significant results, or to the > second most significant results. Imagine trying to catch up on a > fast-moving incremental feed without having any idea whether a link > would take you to the first entries ever added to a feed or the one's > you just missed. > That's what incremental=true is for, or the feed rank mechanism, etc. Basically, the next/prev mechanism should be used in conjunction with something else that specifies the ordering of the entries, etc. The next/prev link relations should imply nothing more than a linked list of feeds. >>> I do believe that a "last" link relation would be helpful for >>> completeness >> > ...and "last" certainly seems to imply SOME sort of ordering of > chunks, even if we know nothing about the order of the entries in > each chunk. > Nope. It implies nothing more than a closed-set linked list of feeds. No ordering is implied. We could achieve the same result with rel="start" and rel="end" > To each of the following, perhaps we could add something to indicate > that these link relations are all used to page through the current > state of a feed, and not to navigate among various states of a feed. > The fact that most people wouldn't have a clue what that means > without some discussion of incremental and non-incremental feeds may > be an argument for having a spec document to provide more explanation > (rather than embedding an identical explanation in each > Description). Example: > When I think of next/prev I'm not thinking about any form of temporal semantic. I'm thinking about nothing more than a linked list of feed documents. If you want to add a temporal semantic into the picture, use a mechanism such as the Feed History incremental=true element. In other words, this does not imply a feed history thing... ... this does... ... true > "At any point in time, a feed may be represented by a series of Feed > documents, each containing some of the entries that exist in the feed > at that point in time. In other words, a feed may contain more > entries than exist in the Feed document that one retrieves when > dereferencing the subscription URI, and there may be other documents > containing representations of those additional entries. The link > relations defined in this specification are used to navigate between > Feed documents containing pages or chunks of those entries which > exist simultaneously within a feed. > Again, you're thinking in terms of Feed History. I'm separating the link rel's out from Feed History and making them more generic. I would fully expect that the Feed History spec would define some ordering and processing semantic for the linked documents. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 00:42:58 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERjJS-00079g-QD for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 00:42:58 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA02068 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 00:42:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I4Z0Bt023536; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:35:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9I4Z04t023535; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:35:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I4Yx1a023525 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:35:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id a10so710160qbd for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:34:59 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=NBv5AqJ/pr8NDEKDFOrPH4BY/SNi85ZmllbalaJxbIKir06VFcMOvfbp6KtX2rSQjFxBA6PpHr0BREXG0CVURpazlmk3Qkatc1F3z7APcgF98VPF1lnTi9A/0TUQz35xh9hEraW4uFfmm4wwq3x6pMB8DBGprEgRJTtleAOQ3uA= Received: by 10.65.253.14 with SMTP id f14mr187101qbs; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:34:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e17sm9211379qbe.2005.10.17.21.34.58; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:34:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43547B70.8010000@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:34:56 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Antone Roundy CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Are Generic Link Relations Always a Good Idea? [was: Feed History -04] References: <4353F21E.7030206@cegetel.net> <4A08C2D9-437B-4615-8841-BD0396906A3F@bea.com> <4353FD94.5010206@gmail.com> <68fba5c50510171315g32e74b1bi5329b8e5bae435e3@mail.gmail.com> <0FE04CCF-527A-421E-8708-806E5C229ED7@mnot.net> <435423E8.7000505@cegetel.net> <5E445CE9-9607-47BF-A587-7B480371240B@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Antone Roundy wrote: > Yeah, but what if you need what amounts to a multi-dimensional > array. The method of addressing each dimension has to be > distinguishable from the others. > Ok, what if? Do you have any specific use cases where this would be required with feed linking? And how theoretical are those cases? I just don't see this as being a practical problem that needs solved right now. >>> If the complete set represents all the entries ever published >>> through an ever-changing feed document (what a feed currently is, >>> you subscribe with an URI and the document you get when >>> dereferencing the URI changes as a sliding-window upon a set of >>> entries), then paging allows for feed state reconstruction. >>> In other terms, feed state reconstruction is a facet of paging, an >>> application to non-incremental feeds. >> > Let's say you're doing a feed for the Billboard top 100 songs. Each > week, the entire contents of the feed are swapped out and replaced by > a new top 100 (ie. it is a non-incremental feed). And let's say you > don't want to put all 100 in the same document, but you want to break > it up into 4 documents with 25 entries each. You now have two > potential axes that people might want to traverse--from songs 1-25 to > 26-50 to 51-75 to 76-100, or from this weeks 1-25 to last weeks 1-25 > to two weeks ago's 1-25, etc. You can't link in both directions with > the same "next". > Of course not. Feed 1: next >> Feed 2 Feed 2: Feed 1 << prev next >> Feed 3 Feed 3: Feed 2 << prev next >> Feed 4 Feed 4: Feed 3 << prev It's easy to do this kind of thing.. the challenge I'm having with this use case is that I don't actually see anyone trying to do this. It's another "what if" scenario. If this isn't something that someone is currently trying to do, this is a problem that can easily be solved later, when it does become an issue. The best we can do now is attempt to make sure that we don't make it impossible to solve later. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 01:04:34 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERjeM-0005Pe-1T for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 01:04:34 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA03181 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 01:04:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I4wVlE026444; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:58:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9I4wVbI026443; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:58:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc14.comcast.net (sccrmhc14.comcast.net [204.127.202.59]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I4wUbU026433 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:58:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc14) with SMTP id <2005101804582201400n5ct9e>; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 04:58:22 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: <43547747.8080402@gmail.com> References: <68fba5c50510171205t7d19fcbav5b27fabecd347b95@mail.gmail.com> <4353FC1A.7030701@gmail.com> <43547747.8080402@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: New Link Relations? [was: Feed History -04] Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:58:18 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Oct 17, 2005, at 10:17 PM, James M Snell wrote: > When I think of next/prev I'm not thinking about any form of > temporal semantic. I'm thinking about nothing more than a linked > list of feed documents. If you want to add a temporal semantic > into the picture, use a mechanism such as the Feed History > incremental=true element. I don't think I expressed the point I wanted to make quite clearly enough, so let me try again. Chains of Feed documents are going to be ordered in some way, whether it's specified or not, whether they explicitly indicate it or not. For example, the chain of Feed documents representing an incremental feed is going to naturally be in temporal order. You're not going to be tacking on new entries willy nilly to whichever of the documents in the chain fits your fancy at the moment. You're going to create a new document when the one you were most recently adding entries to gets "full", and then your going to add entries there till that one is "full", and so on. There may be exceptions, but by and large, whether the temporal order is explicit or not, that's what's going to happen. Chains of pages of search results feeds are going to naturally be ordered with the best matches "on top". The point I was trying to make was that you're not going to create all the documents without links between then and then randomly assign links between them in no specific order. You're going to link between then in an order that makes sense within the context of how the feed was created. I don't know how client applications are going to adapt to deal with the difference between incremental feeds and, for example, search results feeds, but I can't imagine that client software isn't going to rely on there being some sort of sense to the order of the Feed documents. What I was trying to say further down with the example spec text I wrote was, let's state explicitly that this link relation does not have a temporal semantic, and if somebody want's a link relation with a temporal semantic, they should create another link/@rel value for it. In other words... > In other words, > > this does not imply a feed history thing... ...let's have this be a link for navigating among the pages of the current state of the feed (whether it be incremental or not--noting that some non-incremental feeds will only have one page, and won't need it). The entries in the current state of the feed are not in any specific order (though we know that naturally they will be in some sort of order): > > ... > > How does the following have anything to do with history? In an incremental feed, all of the entries, whether part of the Feed document at the subscription end or not, are part of the present state of the feed--they don't just exist back in history. History is for non-incremental feeds. I'm saying let's not work on navigation through history right now, but let's recognize that unless we say not to, people might try to use the mechanism designed for paging through the current state of a feed to navigate through the history of a feed too, so let's say not to. I understand (or at least suppose) that you don't think we need to say not to, because you don't see the harm in making the link relation more generic. I disagree. I think we're going to end up with a mess if we don't make it specifically for navigating the current state. > this does... > > ... > true > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 01:33:15 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERk67-0005ck-84 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 01:33:15 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA04759 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 01:33:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I5PGv8028714; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:25:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9I5PG2q028713; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:25:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I5PGCQ028705 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:25:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE4E33CA45; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 01:25:14 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <43547747.8080402@gmail.com> References: <68fba5c50510171205t7d19fcbav5b27fabecd347b95@mail.gmail.com> <4353FC1A.7030701@gmail.com> <43547747.8080402@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Antone Roundy , atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: New Link Relations? [was: Feed History -04] Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:25:11 -0700 To: James M Snell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Requiring a separate element to always be present is a non-starter; what is the point of a "reusable" link relation if you have to use it with another element to contextualise it? I'm really stretching to see any benefit from this approach. prev-archive (or maybe prev-entries?) is starting to look better, as is . On 17/10/2005, at 9:17 PM, James M Snell wrote: > In other words, > > this does not imply a feed history thing... > > ... > > > > this does... > > ... > true > > > -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 01:33:16 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERk68-0005cy-9e for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 01:33:16 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA04765 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 01:33:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I5QUtF028810; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:26:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9I5QU32028809; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:26:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I5QT4i028801 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:26:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24AEE3CA45; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 01:26:29 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: New Link Relations? [was: Feed History -04] Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:26:23 -0700 To: Eric Scheid X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +1 On 17/10/2005, at 7:57 PM, Eric Scheid wrote: > > On 18/10/05 9:53 AM, "Mark Nottingham" > wrote: > > >> So what happens when you need the rel="self" (as currently defined) >> of an archive feed? >> > > The current definition being ... > > The value "self" signifies that the IRI in the value of the href > attribute identifies a resource equivalent to the containing > element. > > thus a link with @rel='self' in the element would link to that > archive feed document. Similarly, a link with @rel='self' in the > > element would link to a resource document of that particular entry. > > Thus (in context of ) > > 'self' = identifies a resource equivalent to this > 'subscribe' = identifies the resource to subscribe to > > The same holds true for archive feeds and the current sliding > window chunk, > which makes life easier. > > e. > > > -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 01:38:17 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERkAz-00073v-Pl for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 01:38:17 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA05015 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 01:38:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I5Wqv7029312; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:32:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9I5Wqrh029311; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:32:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I5Wpi9029305 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:32:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 504E23D380; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 01:32:51 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <43543E56.1080005@gmail.com> References: <68fba5c50510171205t7d19fcbav5b27fabecd347b95@mail.gmail.com> <4353FC1A.7030701@gmail.com> <43542EA3.1040303@cegetel.net> <435436CC.1070109@gmail.com> <43543E56.1080005@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <5B538A35-6B4F-4DE4-A1CA-899BC8AFDAC4@mnot.net> Cc: Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: New Link Relations? [was: Feed History -04] Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:32:48 -0700 To: James M Snell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 17/10/2005, at 5:14 PM, James M Snell wrote: > Hmm.. better than before. It would be better if you left it at the > "at the time it was minted" part and left out the sentence that > follows. But I can live with it. That phrase is probably redundant. Which leaves: - Attribute Value: previous - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed document containing a set of entries that sequentially precede those in the current document. This can be thought of as specific to those entries; in other words, it represents a fixed section of the feed, rather than a sliding window over it. Note that the exact nature of the ordering between the entries and documents containing them is not defined by this relation; i.e., this relation is only relative. - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. - Security considerations: Because automated agents may follow this link relation to construct a 'virtual' feed, care should be taken when it crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a different authority than the current document). Such agents should also take care to detect circular references between feeds when following them. - Attribute Value: next - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed document containing a set of entries that sequentially follow those in the current document. This can be thought of as specific to those entries; in other words, it represents a fixed section of the feed, rather than a sliding window over it. Note that the exact nature of the ordering between the entries and documents containing them is not defined by this relation; i.e., this relation is only relative. - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. - Security considerations: Because automated agents may follow this link relation to construct a 'virtual' feed, care should be taken when it crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a different authority than the current document). Such agents should also take care to detect circular references between feeds when following them. - Attribute Value: first - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed document containing those entries furthest preceding those in the current document. This can be thought of as specific to those entries; in other words, it represents a fixed section of the feed, rather than a sliding window over it. Note that the exact nature of the ordering between the entries and documents containing them is not defined by this relation; i.e., this relation is only relative. - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. - Security considerations: - Attribute Value: last - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed document containing those entries furthest following those in the current document. This can be thought of as specific to those entries; in other words, it represents a fixed section of the feed, rather than a sliding window over it. Note that the exact nature of the ordering between the entries and documents containing them is not defined by this relation; i.e., this relation is only relative. - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. - Security considerations: - Attribute Value: subscribe - Description: A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed document containing a set of the most recent entries in the feed. This URI is intended to be subscribed to to keep abreast of changes in the feed. When different from the URI of the feed document it exists in, it indicates a URi that should be used for this purpose in place of the current document's URI. - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. - Security considerations: Users should always be informed of the actual URI they are subscribing to, and subscription should only take place when it is explicitly requested. One other thought; what about "first-entries", "next-entries", "previous-entries", "last-entries"? -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 02:10:16 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERkfu-0008RT-Cw for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 02:10:15 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA06177 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 02:10:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I6161I032152; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:01:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9I616kc032151; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:01:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I615Rf032144 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:01:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id a10so722064qbd for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:01:05 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=YxnE5swefQ1xoryL5ireMtBcoDcorw6HV9v7DP5XHgZAC3qvhG15q/QtJ2hnZ+Ycyat+DN2qK39PBr2DxE5P7Q/Ah0YHE10hvDq2ICg47TrZNvAuWUrGyJbU2IiF8Hvgc8ps5SalB5qsT/DDgOp3X2tlE+b2A1QuIunlSTXF9yU= Received: by 10.64.178.6 with SMTP id a6mr274343qbf; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:01:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e19sm2743488qba.2005.10.17.23.01.04; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:01:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43548F9E.4000306@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:01:02 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: New Link Relations? [was: Feed History -04] References: <68fba5c50510171205t7d19fcbav5b27fabecd347b95@mail.gmail.com> <4353FC1A.7030701@gmail.com> <43542EA3.1040303@cegetel.net> <435436CC.1070109@gmail.com> <43543E56.1080005@gmail.com> <5B538A35-6B4F-4DE4-A1CA-899BC8AFDAC4@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <5B538A35-6B4F-4DE4-A1CA-899BC8AFDAC4@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Nottingham wrote: > One other thought; what about "first-entries", "next-entries", > "previous-entries", "last-entries"? > Blech... -1 Everything else, +1 - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 02:20:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERkpS-0002zb-UH for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 02:20:06 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA06588 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 02:19:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I6DCiw033648; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:13:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9I6DCSq033647; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:13:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I6DA3v033611 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:13:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:14:43 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:12:34 +1000 Subject: Re: New Link Relations? [was: Feed History -04] From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5B538A35-6B4F-4DE4-A1CA-899BC8AFDAC4@mnot.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 18/10/05 3:32 PM, "Mark Nottingham" wrote: > Such agents should also take care to detect circular > references between feeds when following them. s/between feeds when/between feed documents/ otherwise +1 e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 03:58:36 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERmMm-0006yj-Fv for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 03:58:36 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA11299 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 03:58:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I7pk0P043147; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 00:51:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9I7pkXE043146; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 00:51:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf01.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.68]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I7pi5Y043139 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 00:51:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from monmail.cegetel.net (217-19-192-110.dti.cegetel.net [217.19.192.110]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 36AC6599964; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:51:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 194.250.147.107 (SquirrelMail authenticated user t.broyer@cegetel.net) by monmail.cegetel.net with HTTP; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:51:39 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <1116.194.250.147.107.1129621899.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> In-Reply-To: <5E445CE9-9607-47BF-A587-7B480371240B@mnot.net> References: <4353F21E.7030206@cegetel.net> <4A08C2D9-437B-4615-8841-BD0396906A3F@bea.com> <4353FD94.5010206@gmail.com> <68fba5c50510171315g32e74b1bi5329b8e5bae435e3@mail.gmail.com> <0FE04CCF-527A-421E-8708-806E5C229ED7@mnot.net> <435423E8.7000505@cegetel.net> <5E445CE9-9607-47BF-A587-7B480371240B@mnot.net> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:51:39 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Are Generic Link Relations Always a Good Idea? [was: Feed History -04] From: "Thomas Broyer" To: "Mark Nottingham" Cc: "Robert Sayre" , "James M Snell" , "James Holderness" , "Eric Scheid" , "Atom Syntax" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mark Nottingham wrote: > They seem similar. But, what if you want to have more than one paging > semantic applied to a single feed, and those uses of paging don't > align? I.e., there's contention for prev/next? How can there be more than one paging semantic applied to a single feed? If a feed (not feed document) is a set of entries (sorted by whatever metadata: updated, priority, relevance, etc.) and you publish chunks as many feed documents, paging is navigation from one to the other, following the sort order. If you want to provide the exact same entries sorted (thus paged) differently, then that's another feed. -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 04:05:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERmTH-0001yv-LE for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 04:05:19 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA11559 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 04:05:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I7kLbf042737; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 00:46:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9I7kLwL042736; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 00:46:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf01.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.68]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I7kJAj042681 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 00:46:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from monmail.cegetel.net (217-19-192-110.dti.cegetel.net [217.19.192.110]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 9F245599AF1; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:46:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 194.250.147.107 (SquirrelMail authenticated user t.broyer@cegetel.net) by monmail.cegetel.net with HTTP; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:46:14 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <1114.194.250.147.107.1129621574.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> In-Reply-To: <43543063.30607@gmail.com> References: <68fba5c50510171205t7d19fcbav5b27fabecd347b95@mail.gmail.com> <4353FC1A.7030701@gmail.com> <43542EA3.1040303@cegetel.net> <43543063.30607@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:46:14 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: New Link Relations? [was: Feed History -04] From: "Thomas Broyer" To: "James M Snell" Cc: "Mark Nottingham" , "Atom Syntax" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id EAA11559 James M Snell wrote: > > Thomas Broyer wrote: >> Depends whether @rel=3D"self" was really meant for subscribing and the >> spec wording is not precise enough about it; this could then be fixed >> with an errata rather than create a new link relation=85 >> Otherwise, +0.5, because it seems to overlap @rel=3D"first" (or "last"= ?) >> =96 or I missed something=85 >> > "self" should always point to the feed document containing the self > link. It makes no sense to have a "self" link in a feed that does not > point to itself. Right, off course=85 My apologies=85 So +0.5 to "subscribe" because it seems to overlap "first" (or "last"?) =96 or I missed something=85 ;o) --=20 Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 04:21:48 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERmjD-0007W4-Ts for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 04:21:48 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA12454 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 04:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I8EtDS045258; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 01:14:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9I8Et6w045257; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 01:14:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf01.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.68]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I8Erb1045244 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 01:14:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from monmail.cegetel.net (217-19-192-110.dti.cegetel.net [217.19.192.110]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 419B559962C; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:14:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 194.250.147.107 (SquirrelMail authenticated user t.broyer@cegetel.net) by monmail.cegetel.net with HTTP; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:14:48 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <1132.194.250.147.107.1129623288.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> In-Reply-To: References: <4353F21E.7030206@cegetel.net> <4A08C2D9-437B-4615-8841-BD0396906A3F@bea.com> <4353FD94.5010206@gmail.com> <68fba5c50510171315g32e74b1bi5329b8e5bae435e3@mail.gmail.com> <0FE04CCF-527A-421E-8708-806E5C229ED7@mnot.net> <435423E8.7000505@cegetel.net> <5E445CE9-9607-47BF-A587-7B480371240B@mnot.net> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:14:48 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Are Generic Link Relations Always a Good Idea? [was: Feed History -04] From: "Thomas Broyer" To: "Antone Roundy" Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Antone Roundy wrote: >>> If the complete set represents all the entries ever published >>> through an ever-changing feed document (what a feed currently is, >>> you subscribe with an URI and the document you get when >>> dereferencing the URI changes as a sliding-window upon a set of >>> entries), then paging allows for feed state reconstruction. >>> In other terms, feed state reconstruction is a facet of paging, an >>> application to non-incremental feeds. > > Let's say you're doing a feed for the Billboard top 100 songs. Each > week, the entire contents of the feed are swapped out and replaced by > a new top 100 (ie. it is a non-incremental feed). And let's say you > don't want to put all 100 in the same document, but you want to break > it up into 4 documents with 25 entries each. You now have two > potential axes that people might want to traverse--from songs 1-25 to > 26-50 to 51-75 to 76-100, or from this weeks 1-25 to last weeks 1-25 > to two weeks ago's 1-25, etc. You can't link in both directions with > the same "next". > > There are clearly two distinct concepts here--navigating through the > chunks that make up the current state of the feed resource, and in a > non-incremental feed, navigating though the historical states of the > feed resource. Yes, and navigating through the historical states of the feed resource is not paging, it's more like having access to archives. I was thinking about proposing yet another link relation "archives": in the general use case, it would reference another feed document where each entry describes an archive: Top 100 feed: October 2005 Top 100 no ... Archive feed: yes ... September 2005 Top 100 ... August 2005 Top 100 ... ... September 2005 Top 100 feed: September 2005 Top 100 no ... -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 05:14:21 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERnY4-0000s9-88 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 05:14:21 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA15685 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 05:14:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I96Nbb050277; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 02:06:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9I96N0j050276; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 02:06:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I96MQb050269 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 02:06:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:08:27 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:06:19 +1000 Subject: Re: Are Generic Link Relations Always a Good Idea? [was: Feed History -04] From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1132.194.250.147.107.1129623288.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 18/10/05 6:14 PM, "Thomas Broyer" wrote: > Yes, and navigating through the historical states of the feed resource is > not paging, it's more like having access to archives. > > I was thinking about proposing yet another link relation "archives": in > the general use case, it would reference another feed document where each > entry describes an archive: The word 'archives' is too general though. May I suggest @rel="history" instead? Otherwise, +1 e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 05:20:25 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERndx-0002IR-3m for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 05:20:25 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA15956 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 05:20:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I8BNt3044980; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 01:11:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9I8BNNT044979; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 01:11:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9I8BLw3044971 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 01:11:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:13:22 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:11:13 +1000 Subject: Re: Are Generic Link Relations Always a Good Idea? [was: Feed History -04] From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1116.194.250.147.107.1129621899.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 18/10/05 5:51 PM, "Thomas Broyer" wrote: > How can there be more than one paging semantic applied to a single feed? > If a feed (not feed document) is a set of entries (sorted by whatever > metadata: updated, priority, relevance, etc.) and you publish chunks as > many feed documents, paging is navigation from one to the other, following > the sort order. ... and the subset of entries which are on page 1 sorted by one axis would be very unlikely to be on page 1 when sorted by some other axis. d'oh! > If you want to provide the exact same entries sorted (thus paged) > differently, then that's another feed. unless of course each feed document contains only one entry each ;-) e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 08:10:29 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERqIX-0000ge-Fu for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:10:29 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA25644 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:10:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IC2kEv068373; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 05:02:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9IC2kl1068372; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 05:02:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IC2jGF068365 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 05:02:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i28so970615nzi for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 05:02:45 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=GERdmDuDBiCbiZP/TtGDavIX0D2KKPwlAQF79sMjRIQpZoKOWM15BZwGu5N6DGD0SshxxP60O2BG9vWb1zzo5cc2gio9EmgRri+Snfh4jl2LXVUJpXZDsCZe1nO1Nn6IyHxyyVqCn5pWfax8Dl3+Qaj+4UcRtZQ8/IPnfX9QIuw= Received: by 10.36.9.4 with SMTP id 4mr1245189nzi; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 05:02:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.12.27 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 05:02:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c50510180502k170f1dc7i8718e0d525c4d25e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:02:45 -0400 From: Robert Sayre To: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: New Link Relations? [was: Feed History -04] Cc: James M Snell , Antone Roundy , atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <68fba5c50510171205t7d19fcbav5b27fabecd347b95@mail.gmail.com> <4353FC1A.7030701@gmail.com> <43547747.8080402@gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9IC2jGF068366 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/18/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > Requiring a separate element to always be present is a non-starter; > what is the point of a "reusable" link relation if you have to use it > with another element to contextualise it? I'm really stretching to > see any benefit from this approach. > > prev-archive (or maybe prev-entries?) is starting to look better, as > is . Hogwash. Do not reinvent the AtomAPI. Posting on atom-syntax and then claiming your way is the right way after all because people are arguing and some folks are saying silly things... why did you bother? Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 11:35:46 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERtVB-0002WF-Ta for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:35:46 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA10416 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:35:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IFRGuv087970; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:27:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9IFRGuH087969; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:27:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.205]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IFRFms087962 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:27:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id a10so829822qbd for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:27:15 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=PYYItibxn27wpFdILzmBoF4pA1z7YJPPxLDQzdT5vywG2pGiS+8t1oZ9j6y3d/U1cvkO9ZW5SbYGBecHhpgR1zJmH/Vl8BKDw83L8RwXfRmzOgmiUUxlf//y5a7Br2eE6pWThONSHYCaIDoVWzG+Is++z/nkzlZ3ymw0MWGVpKk= Received: by 10.65.242.7 with SMTP id u7mr538973qbr; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:27:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e15sm916019qba.2005.10.18.08.27.13; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:27:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4355144F.7060803@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:27:11 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thomas Broyer CC: Mark Nottingham , Robert Sayre , James Holderness , Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Are Generic Link Relations Always a Good Idea? [was: Feed History -04] References: <4353F21E.7030206@cegetel.net> <4A08C2D9-437B-4615-8841-BD0396906A3F@bea.com> <4353FD94.5010206@gmail.com> <68fba5c50510171315g32e74b1bi5329b8e5bae435e3@mail.gmail.com> <0FE04CCF-527A-421E-8708-806E5C229ED7@mnot.net> <435423E8.7000505@cegetel.net> <5E445CE9-9607-47BF-A587-7B480371240B@mnot.net> <1116.194.250.147.107.1129621899.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> In-Reply-To: <1116.194.250.147.107.1129621899.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas Broyer wrote: >Mark Nottingham wrote: > > >>They seem similar. But, what if you want to have more than one paging >>semantic applied to a single feed, and those uses of paging don't >>align? I.e., there's contention for prev/next? >> >> > >How can there be more than one paging semantic applied to a single feed? > >If a feed (not feed document) is a set of entries (sorted by whatever >metadata: updated, priority, relevance, etc.) and you publish chunks as >many feed documents, paging is navigation from one to the other, following >the sort order. > >If you want to provide the exact same entries sorted (thus paged) >differently, then that's another feed. > > > +1 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 12:49:43 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERuel-0002m9-Bq for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:49:43 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA13912 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:49:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IGeNCx094822; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:40:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9IGeNAj094821; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:40:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.205]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IGeMZs094815 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:40:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i28so1007760nzi for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:40:22 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=O8hRJzNAsPXKi5RdH977WTIOORJNWhqJOk4p+l/YasODU2TCSSpnCJV3pqlJgr9hOMLO/IOo8JtdlmiQr5VQSaHu1FIIE3pYlAgY/JxQ3T6ehd4OLfFp+DzqVdBi8q8UmD8XQcpEZOZAjgo6nZGGQsw8gJyKqxoi/aZ5E60Mzs8= Received: by 10.37.2.46 with SMTP id e46mr1224801nzi; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:40:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.12.27 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:40:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c50510180940x6cfcf0aev9ffa80bd4d788576@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:40:22 -0400 From: Robert Sayre To: Atom Syntax Subject: Feed History / Protocol overlap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9IGeMZs094816 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id MAA13912 I think the navigation elements of draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-04.txt overlap with Atom protocol navigation and deployed APP beta implementations. In fact, I pointed this out way back in April 2005. I don't think anything has changed. In Mark Nottingham wrote= : > Way back when I put the first Atom drafts together, I included a placeh= older for > a section that I hoped would allow reconstruction of feed state. Presen= tly, this often > isn't necessary, because you have to be away for a seriously long time > (e.g, on vacation) before you actually miss anything. ... > In other words, if you happen to look away for too long you miss inform= ation, > essentially making the channel leaky. To that end, I put together a pro= posal and a > demonstration feed (in fact this very blog's feed, dear reader), in the= hopes of > convincing people that this is a real issue. Silence ensued, and the > ATOMPUB WG declined my proposal. to which Robert Sayre replied: > Hmm. Your proposal concerned a couple link relations, right? Those woul= d be > easy to add to the format at anytime, and... Blogger and 6A have both a= sked for > similar functionality on the protocol side. Seems like more of a serve= r layout > and protocol problem, anyway. to which Mark Nottingham replied: > Robert =97 > The only problem I have with that is that AFAIK so far, I don't need to= know about the > protocol document to consume an Atom document; it's only when you want = to > manipulate a feed that you have to work on that side of the house. > > That said, it's good to hear that others want this too. to which Robert Sayre replied: > Well, wouldn't it be nice if you didn't need to know about the protocol= document to > perform any of the protocol's read operations? That's my thinking. View= -source on a > couple of link relations should be enough to pick it up. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 13:37:37 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERvP6-000367-RU for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:37:36 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA17990 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:37:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IHUkTF001022; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:30:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9IHUkSp001021; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:30:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ussjmh01.bea.com (ussjmh01.bea.com [63.96.162.5]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IHUjKc001015 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:30:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from markn@bea.com) Received: from ussjfe01.amer.bea.com (ussjfe01b.bea.com [172.16.120.57]) by ussjmh01.bea.com (Switch-3.0.5/Switch-3.0.0) with ESMTP id j9IHTpvt013336; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:30:04 -0700 Received: from USSFEX01.amer.bea.com ([10.32.0.56]) by ussjfe01.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:30:00 -0700 Received: from [172.16.1.2] ([172.24.28.195]) by USSFEX01.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:30:00 -0700 In-Reply-To: <68fba5c50510180940x6cfcf0aev9ffa80bd4d788576@mail.gmail.com> References: <68fba5c50510180940x6cfcf0aev9ffa80bd4d788576@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Atom Syntax X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History / Protocol overlap Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:29:55 -0700 To: Robert Sayre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Oct 2005 17:30:00.0556 (UTC) FILETIME=[912FF2C0:01C5D409] X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.2.0, Antispam-Data: 2005.10.18.16 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9IHUjKc001016 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id NAA17990 Can you substantiate that with links to the appropriate portions of =20 the current protocol draft? On 18/10/2005, at 9:40 AM, Robert Sayre wrote: > > I think the navigation elements of > draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-04.txt overlap with Atom > protocol navigation and deployed APP beta implementations. In fact, I > pointed this out way back in April 2005. I don't think anything has > changed. > > In Mark Nottingham =20 > wrote: > >> Way back when I put the first Atom drafts together, I included a =20 >> placeholder for >> a section that I hoped would allow reconstruction of feed state. =20 >> Presently, this often >> isn't necessary, because you have to be away for a seriously long =20 >> time >> (e.g, on vacation) before you actually miss anything. >> > ... > >> In other words, if you happen to look away for too long you miss =20 >> information, >> essentially making the channel leaky. To that end, I put together =20 >> a proposal and a >> demonstration feed (in fact this very blog's feed, dear reader), =20 >> in the hopes of >> convincing people that this is a real issue. Silence ensued, and the >> ATOMPUB WG declined my proposal. >> > > to which Robert Sayre replied: > >> Hmm. Your proposal concerned a couple link relations, right? Those =20 >> would be >> easy to add to the format at anytime, and... Blogger and 6A have =20 >> both asked for >> similar functionality on the protocol side. Seems like more of a =20 >> server layout >> and protocol problem, anyway. >> > > to which Mark Nottingham replied: > >> Robert =97 >> The only problem I have with that is that AFAIK so far, I don't =20 >> need to know about the >> protocol document to consume an Atom document; it's only when you =20 >> want to >> manipulate a feed that you have to work on that side of the house. >> >> That said, it's good to hear that others want this too. >> > > to which Robert Sayre replied: > >> Well, wouldn't it be nice if you didn't need to know about the =20 >> protocol document to >> perform any of the protocol's read operations? That's my thinking. =20 >> View-source on a >> couple of link relations should be enough to pick it up. >> > > Robert Sayre > > > -- Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist Office of the CTO BEA Systems _________________________________________________________________________= _______ BEAWorld 2005: coming to a city near you. Everything you need for SOA an= d enterprise infrastructure success. =20 Register now at http://www.bea.com/4beaworld =20 London 11-12 Oct| Paris13-14 Oct| Prague18-19 Oct |Tokyo 25-26 Oct| Beiji= ng 7-8 Dec From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 14:36:48 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERwKN-0007be-Pi for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:36:48 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA21282 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:36:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IIMK2w005784; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:22:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9IIMKmL005783; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:22:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.204]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IIMJqZ005777 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:22:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i28so1020544nzi for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:22:19 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=iTULjYzAnwBTdi6jA/Vn9WDkXTpJM9iRUifeCC6QxXUD3Q+de9+/TaX2SxYfjdonYq1Y9dD4xuaVuuGdHcues9Z5EwbAvewUza0JmuqvEiCeTR7GAQZXD823Pv5m0suBtN+dzXlotqZsBdl+JN9pHdEGwyAJlxYCtwAhNlM8S9I= Received: by 10.36.227.43 with SMTP id z43mr2235981nzg; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:22:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.12.27 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:22:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c50510181122x6e7c132bjd8acbf15391c97f6@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:22:19 -0400 From: Robert Sayre To: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History / Protocol overlap Cc: Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <68fba5c50510180940x6cfcf0aev9ffa80bd4d788576@mail.gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9IIMJqZ005778 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/18/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Can you substantiate that with links to the appropriate portions of > the current protocol draft? Oh that's odd. They've gone and deleted them. I can tell you that my general impression of the current atom-protocol list was that we would align with Amazon OpenSearch. In any case, I think it would be unwise for the IETF to duplicate APP navigation. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 14:37:48 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERwLM-000829-6q for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:37:48 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA21321 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:37:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IIPaZN006084; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:25:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9IIPafs006082; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:25:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IIPaDE006075 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:25:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (uswaef01.bea.com [12.130.8.219]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C80343D3D3; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:25:34 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <68fba5c50510181122x6e7c132bjd8acbf15391c97f6@mail.gmail.com> References: <68fba5c50510180940x6cfcf0aev9ffa80bd4d788576@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181122x6e7c132bjd8acbf15391c97f6@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <0E0AA8EE-2816-4911-80F3-EA78A9F4E3A4@mnot.net> Cc: Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History / Protocol overlap Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:25:30 -0700 To: Robert Sayre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK, well, I'm not terribly fussed by who registers them, but they need to be carefully defined, and it wasn't at all clear that the OpenSearch document did that. Considering that there's a need for them sooner rather than later, would you have a problem with registering the link relations (as discussed in a separate thread) separately, before APP is done? If so, why? On 18/10/2005, at 11:22 AM, Robert Sayre wrote: > Oh that's odd. They've gone and deleted them. I can tell you that my > general impression of the current atom-protocol list was that we would > align with Amazon OpenSearch. In any case, I think it would be unwise > for the IETF to duplicate APP navigation. -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 14:38:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERwLc-0008E7-OS for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:38:07 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA21328 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:37:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IIRANF006209; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:27:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9IIR9wQ006208; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:27:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IIR9vP006202 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:27:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 22032 invoked by uid 17064); 18 Oct 2005 18:27:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO localhost) ([127.0.0.1]) (envelope-sender ) by 127.0.0.1 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 18 Oct 2005 18:27:09 -0000 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:27:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Henry Story X-X-Sender: hjs@bblfish.net To: James M Snell cc: Robert Sayre , Byrne Reese , Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Feed History -04 In-Reply-To: <4353FC1A.7030701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051018111944.P5375@bblfish.net> References: <68fba5c50510171205t7d19fcbav5b27fabecd347b95@mail.gmail.com> <4353FC1A.7030701@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: My laptop broke down so I am having touble following all of this thread, but I agree that next, prev, ... should just suggest a linked list. There should then be special links for hist-prev, hist-next, ... that are in rdf terms sub-properties of prev, next, etc... On the atom-owl mailing list we are working on a very faithful onotology to the atom-syntax, that would allow this sub-property relation to be clearly stated. This keeps everything very nicely open, allowing many specialised semantics of the next, prev, style to be created. Henry On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, James M Snell wrote: > Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:31:38 -0700 > From: James M Snell > To: Robert Sayre > Cc: Byrne Reese , > Eric Scheid , > Atom Syntax > Subject: Re: Feed History -04 > > > Robert Sayre wrote: > >> On 10/17/05, Byrne Reese wrote: >> >>> "next" and "previous" are as James points out, orthogonal to ordering. >>> The debate as to whether the next set goes backwards or forwards in time >>> is not about the use of the terms "next" and "previous," it is about the >>> default sort order of a result set. >>> >> >> Fully agree. Let's use what MarkP wrote down over a year ago, and stop >> debating the nature of adjacency and ordering as it relates time and >> archives. Are there any technical problems with the elements in this >> feed: >> >> http://diveintomark.org/xml/2004/03/index.atom >> >> > ;-) Woo hoo! Robert and I agree on something ;-) > > Debating how the entries are organized is fruitless. The Atom spec already > states that the order of elements in the feed has no significance; trying to > get an extension to retrofit order-significance into the feed is going to > fail... just as I discovered with my Feed Index extension proposal. > > > * Next/Prev/Start/Subscribe defines a linked list of feed documents and/or > entry documents and says absolutely nothing about the ordering of the > entries. > * Next/Prev/Start/Subscribe should be defined in their own specification that > is not bound to Feed History > * Feed History (if MarkN wishes it so) should normatively reference the > Next/Prev/Start/Subscribe extension spec > > I do believe that a "last" link relation would be helpful for completeness > and I do believe the use cases are there (e.g. search results, etc) but I am > ok with dropping that for now as it can easily be defined later once the use > cases do become more prominent. > Over the next week I'll see if I can draft up the spec. I'll use what MarkP > put together as the basis for what I write up and submit. > > - James > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 14:50:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERwXT-0003lI-HR for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:50:19 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA21765 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:50:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IIcD4s007479; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:38:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9IIcDQD007478; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:38:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IIcCxj007472 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:38:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i28so1022477nzi for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:38:12 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=CKGGpFnWzwrunVQGk1MLyMWa4KYc29rDgmVEm8SA0jIoJIfkXBNqXedZ8etUVVSl/Y4TOshhjGVEy12hNozUGjBV0/wyg53ytIAU9jBl9f1HG3XFFuHLJyShD8yZMCFLwD6TDxIiCeKSGAZCaJA5ztr5xtWesd0IKiSmqLpgXR8= Received: by 10.36.251.49 with SMTP id y49mr4107869nzh; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.12.27 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c50510181138k26cd2bcs319a65bf9ce16357@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:38:11 -0400 From: Robert Sayre To: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History / Protocol overlap Cc: Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: <0E0AA8EE-2816-4911-80F3-EA78A9F4E3A4@mnot.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <68fba5c50510180940x6cfcf0aev9ffa80bd4d788576@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181122x6e7c132bjd8acbf15391c97f6@mail.gmail.com> <0E0AA8EE-2816-4911-80F3-EA78A9F4E3A4@mnot.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9IIcCxj007473 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/18/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: > OK, well, I'm not terribly fussed by who registers them, but they > need to be carefully defined, and it wasn't at all clear that the > OpenSearch document did that. I think maybe we have a difference of opinion on what's needed here. > Considering that there's a need for them sooner rather than later, > would you have a problem with registering the link relations (as > discussed in a separate thread) separately, before APP is done? If > so, why? No objection. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 15:06:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERwmm-0000Lr-P7 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:06:08 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA22512 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:05:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IIsJC0010353; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:54:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9IIsJtD010352; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:54:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IIsIcY010346 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:54:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (unknown [66.248.192.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14BE53D3A8; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:54:17 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <68fba5c50510181138k26cd2bcs319a65bf9ce16357@mail.gmail.com> References: <68fba5c50510180940x6cfcf0aev9ffa80bd4d788576@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181122x6e7c132bjd8acbf15391c97f6@mail.gmail.com> <0E0AA8EE-2816-4911-80F3-EA78A9F4E3A4@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181138k26cd2bcs319a65bf9ce16357@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History / Protocol overlap Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:54:15 -0700 To: Robert Sayre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 18/10/2005, at 11:38 AM, Robert Sayre wrote: >> OK, well, I'm not terribly fussed by who registers them, but they >> need to be carefully defined, and it wasn't at all clear that the >> OpenSearch document did that. >> > > I think maybe we have a difference of opinion on what's needed here. Could you elaborate? Thanks, -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 15:24:15 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERx4J-0006tv-Bg for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:24:15 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA23404 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:24:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IJEm15012507; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:14:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9IJEm0O012506; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:14:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IJEl3l012498 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:14:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 8so1052400nzo for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:14:42 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=mdnfLLETMLBUvL5xllkcDEiiJcsZHEDTTlez/+FWJsJJPCdj0u5f0mEOdDt7DcLzXBBJbFfUZQKSG+eEcrtmOIUCBdfc5PWbzbeQ+JhoW03TLQsOtwdMwpKzMSnud27Kt3hG8bRu1dGBpT6gT6wo5PvXVqScF+bk7AZkhBfeWcI= Received: by 10.36.127.14 with SMTP id z14mr2724112nzc; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.12.27 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c50510181214hcfed595p550e7570de40c992@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:14:41 -0400 From: Robert Sayre To: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History / Protocol overlap Cc: Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <68fba5c50510180940x6cfcf0aev9ffa80bd4d788576@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181122x6e7c132bjd8acbf15391c97f6@mail.gmail.com> <0E0AA8EE-2816-4911-80F3-EA78A9F4E3A4@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181138k26cd2bcs319a65bf9ce16357@mail.gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9IJEl3l012501 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/18/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > On 18/10/2005, at 11:38 AM, Robert Sayre wrote: > > >> OK, well, I'm not terribly fussed by who registers them, but they > >> need to be carefully defined, and it wasn't at all clear that the > >> OpenSearch document did that. > >> > > > > I think maybe we have a difference of opinion on what's needed here. I vastly prefer your first definition of next/prev. The "should not change over time" stuff is not testable. For example, a template change in Movable Type followed by a "Rebuild All" makes every single archive change. As a client implementor, I can't see how the the follwing text helps me: "The set of entries in this document should not change over time; i.e., this link points to a stable snapshot of entries, or an archive of feed entries." I think what you're describing is a sensible server implementation strategy, because once the URI is visited, it should return 304 in the future. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 15:36:15 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERxFv-0001X3-Pb for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:36:15 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA23797 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:36:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IJPr8Z013664; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:25:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9IJPrkX013663; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:25:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IJPqg4013657 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:25:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (unknown [66.248.192.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E86F3D386; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:25:51 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <68fba5c50510181214hcfed595p550e7570de40c992@mail.gmail.com> References: <68fba5c50510180940x6cfcf0aev9ffa80bd4d788576@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181122x6e7c132bjd8acbf15391c97f6@mail.gmail.com> <0E0AA8EE-2816-4911-80F3-EA78A9F4E3A4@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181138k26cd2bcs319a65bf9ce16357@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181214hcfed595p550e7570de40c992@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <38801F1D-417C-4EF7-8297-BE4C3746CEA2@mnot.net> Cc: Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History / Protocol overlap Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:25:48 -0700 To: Robert Sayre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm confused; the current proposal (below) doesn't have that text in it; for example, the definition of previous is: > A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed document > containing a set of entries that sequentially precede those in the > current document. This can be thought of as specific to those > entries; in other words, it represents a fixed section of the feed, > rather than a sliding window over it. Note that the exact nature of > the ordering between the entries and documents containing them is > not defined by this relation; i.e., this relation is only relative. On 18/10/2005, at 12:14 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: > On 10/18/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> >> On 18/10/2005, at 11:38 AM, Robert Sayre wrote: >> >> >>>> OK, well, I'm not terribly fussed by who registers them, but they >>>> need to be carefully defined, and it wasn't at all clear that the >>>> OpenSearch document did that. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> I think maybe we have a difference of opinion on what's needed here. >>> > > I vastly prefer your first definition of next/prev. The "should not > change over time" stuff is not testable. For example, a template > change in Movable Type followed by a "Rebuild All" makes every single > archive change. As a client implementor, I can't see how the the > follwing text helps me: > > "The set of entries in this document should not change over time; > i.e., this link points to a stable snapshot of entries, or an archive > of feed entries." > > I think what you're describing is a sensible server implementation > strategy, because once the URI is visited, it should return 304 in the > future. > > Robert Sayre > > -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 15:49:41 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERxSv-0006no-4T for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:49:41 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA24364 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:49:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IJcRVL015522; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:38:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9IJcRbW015521; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:38:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IJcQw7015515 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:38:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i28so1029893nzi for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:38:26 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=UEIWlTXbKk0DLLdvjN/D4/BPkhMUoo0j4T7d6K7tQRJ9ZeqvoF8SbDrV/csVlhsXMGy5i0PYXcwwmaHzPRZv/Q+7KtPpipmi6bF5Fs0epeGshaBqzOQary8/wN69+jZ6Q2zxd6bzGwUd+7rSjiU32yGEGlJb5Dnqq1Gs/3Fj+SY= Received: by 10.36.227.43 with SMTP id z43mr2302068nzg; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:38:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.12.27 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:38:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c50510181238r819ea0u7b7b4172c92dc940@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:38:26 -0400 From: Robert Sayre To: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History / Protocol overlap Cc: Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: <38801F1D-417C-4EF7-8297-BE4C3746CEA2@mnot.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <68fba5c50510180940x6cfcf0aev9ffa80bd4d788576@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181122x6e7c132bjd8acbf15391c97f6@mail.gmail.com> <0E0AA8EE-2816-4911-80F3-EA78A9F4E3A4@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181138k26cd2bcs319a65bf9ce16357@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181214hcfed595p550e7570de40c992@mail.gmail.com> <38801F1D-417C-4EF7-8297-BE4C3746CEA2@mnot.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9IJcRw7015516 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/18/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: > I'm confused; the current proposal (below) doesn't have that text in > it; for example, the definition of previous is: OK, then I am confused. > > > A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed document > > containing a set of entries that sequentially precede those in the > > current document. I already have code that uses "next" for this. Why do we want to change it? > > This can be thought of as specific to those > > entries; in other words, it represents a fixed section of the feed, > > rather than a sliding window over it. Note that the exact nature of > > the ordering between the entries and documents containing them is > > not defined by this relation; i.e., this relation is only relative. 1.) I don't understand why one feed is making assertions about the stability of another, when your draft provides explicit signals for this. 2.) I still don't see how this helps me write a client. 3.) I don't think the notion of "fixed section" is helpful. is good, that means "don't subscribe"... I get that. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 16:00:04 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERxcy-0000uj-1F for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:00:04 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA25807 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:59:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IJnijN016400; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:49:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9IJniST016399; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:49:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IJnhu7016390 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:49:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id m21so1125476qbe for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:49:40 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=lOSsjeg0UzwE3Tqyu169WwNlQopJnyRQC4POSBoX2l8qPbWiKeIYoVrUKnkDz/hYc5smXlQzWTQct7U/xlU4RDVtBeSFETN0onW2dzrWWNiYXRcUJTjXiB4UyVK1ki9gjDYH1psoGMCjzk4uhSNRex5yzn0Co+G+yy6aF6WIK/o= Received: by 10.64.156.15 with SMTP id d15mr3416855qbe; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:49:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e15sm4875060qbe.2005.10.18.12.49.39; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:49:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <435551D0.4090803@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:49:36 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Sayre CC: Mark Nottingham , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Feed History / Protocol overlap References: <68fba5c50510180940x6cfcf0aev9ffa80bd4d788576@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181122x6e7c132bjd8acbf15391c97f6@mail.gmail.com> <0E0AA8EE-2816-4911-80F3-EA78A9F4E3A4@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181138k26cd2bcs319a65bf9ce16357@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181214hcfed595p550e7570de40c992@mail.gmail.com> <38801F1D-417C-4EF7-8297-BE4C3746CEA2@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181238r819ea0u7b7b4172c92dc940@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <68fba5c50510181238r819ea0u7b7b4172c92dc940@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +1 on all of Roberts comments. While I'm ok with the current version, I was much happier with the original. Robert Sayre wrote: >On 10/18/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > >>I'm confused; the current proposal (below) doesn't have that text in >>it; for example, the definition of previous is: >> >> > >OK, then I am confused. > > > >>>A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed document >>>containing a set of entries that sequentially precede those in the >>>current document. >>> >>> > >I already have code that uses "next" for this. Why do we want to change it? > > > >>>This can be thought of as specific to those >>>entries; in other words, it represents a fixed section of the feed, >>>rather than a sliding window over it. Note that the exact nature of >>>the ordering between the entries and documents containing them is >>>not defined by this relation; i.e., this relation is only relative. >>> >>> > >1.) I don't understand why one feed is making assertions about the >stability of another, when your draft provides explicit signals for >this. > >2.) I still don't see how this helps me write a client. > >3.) I don't think the notion of "fixed section" is helpful. > is good, that means "don't subscribe"... I get that. > >Robert Sayre > > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 16:53:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERySJ-0001zY-N7 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:53:08 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA18437 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:52:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IKjssU021588; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:45:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9IKjs5q021587; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:45:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf00.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.67]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IKjr8G021579 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:45:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.5.55.251]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC4B223534A; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 22:45:47 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <43555F04.9090106@cegetel.net> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 22:45:56 +0200 From: Thomas Broyer User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.4 (Windows/20050908) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Sayre Cc: Mark Nottingham , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Feed History / Protocol overlap References: <68fba5c50510180940x6cfcf0aev9ffa80bd4d788576@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181122x6e7c132bjd8acbf15391c97f6@mail.gmail.com> <0E0AA8EE-2816-4911-80F3-EA78A9F4E3A4@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181138k26cd2bcs319a65bf9ce16357@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181214hcfed595p550e7570de40c992@mail.gmail.com> <38801F1D-417C-4EF7-8297-BE4C3746CEA2@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181238r819ea0u7b7b4172c92dc940@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <68fba5c50510181238r819ea0u7b7b4172c92dc940@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id QAA18437 Robert Sayre wrote: [about the "previous" link relation] >>> A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed document >>> containing a set of entries that sequentially precede those in the >>> current document. >>> =20 > > I already have code that uses "next" for this. Why do we want to change= it? > =20 Er, I'm not a native English speaker, so my apologies in advance if I'm=20 wrong=85 If a feed is sorted by the entries' atom:updated value in descending=20 order (which AtomPP currently requires for "Lists"), isn't "next"=20 meaning "entries with an atom:updated representing an earlier date-time"=20 (remember, entries are sorted in descending order!) and "previous"=20 meaning "entries with an atom:updated representing a later date-time"? If entries are sorted in descending order, the "first" feed is the one=20 with the greatest values (atom:updated representing now, a second ago, a=20 minute ago, =85) and the "last" one the one with the lowest values=20 (atom:updated representing the "oldest" date-times). Hence, in the=20 "first" feed you'll find an atom:link[@rel=3D"next"] and in the "last" on= e=20 an atom:link[@rel=3D"previous"]. Conclusion: I think you, Mark and the guys behind OpenSearch all agree=85 Now I think we should ask the OpenSearch people if they already have=20 requested IANA registration for their start/next/prev/end link relations=20 (hasn't James already asked them?) and if they haven't, then we (the WG)=20 should first agree on the terms to be used (start/end vs. first/last),=20 request registration and tell the OpenSearch people that these relations=20 are pending registration. Any thoughts? --=20 Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 17:14:24 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERymu-0005JT-El for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:14:24 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA28612 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:14:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IL6h9B023158; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:06:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9IL6hT5023156; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:06:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf00.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.67]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IL6fZG023140 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:06:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.5.55.251]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A79723C0D4; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 23:06:36 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <435563E7.8000703@cegetel.net> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 23:06:47 +0200 From: Thomas Broyer User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.4 (Windows/20050908) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Scheid Cc: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Are Generic Link Relations Always a Good Idea? [was: Feed History -04] References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id RAA28612 Eric Scheid wrote: > On 18/10/05 6:14 PM, "Thomas Broyer" wrote: > =20 >> Yes, and navigating through the historical states of the feed resource= is >> not paging, it's more like having access to archives. >> >> I was thinking about proposing yet another link relation "archives": i= n >> the general use case, it would reference another feed document where e= ach >> entry describes an archive: >> =20 > > The word 'archives' is too general though. May I suggest @rel=3D"histor= y" > instead? I'm not a native English speaker so=85 =85but what's wrong with "archives"? According to my understanding of "archives vs. history", when an=20 Archived Feed (January 2005 Top 100 feed) links to the Archive Feed (the=20 one listing each and every Archived Feed), isn't "history" a bit=20 "disturbing"? as the Archive Feed will contain entries about archives of=20 feeds published later (February 2005 Top 100 feed, March 2005 Top 100=20 feed), that is, the Archive Feed doesn't contains the "history" of the=20 January 2005 Top 100 feed but "archives" of each Top 100 feed ever=20 published. As said above, English is not my mother tong, so I don't really mind=20 which word is chosen, I'll use it (also, someone other than me will=20 certainly have to go through the IANA registration process, or at least=20 help me to do it=85) --=20 Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 17:14:32 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERyn2-0005Ms-4S for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:14:32 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA28621 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:14:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IL90TT023281; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:09:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9IL90tO023279; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:09:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IL8x61023271 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:08:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (unknown [66.248.192.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 782403D386; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:08:57 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <68fba5c50510181238r819ea0u7b7b4172c92dc940@mail.gmail.com> References: <68fba5c50510180940x6cfcf0aev9ffa80bd4d788576@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181122x6e7c132bjd8acbf15391c97f6@mail.gmail.com> <0E0AA8EE-2816-4911-80F3-EA78A9F4E3A4@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181138k26cd2bcs319a65bf9ce16357@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181214hcfed595p550e7570de40c992@mail.gmail.com> <38801F1D-417C-4EF7-8297-BE4C3746CEA2@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181238r819ea0u7b7b4172c92dc940@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <559448F2-6022-4785-BA9E-B1982A9017D1@mnot.net> Cc: Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History / Protocol overlap Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:08:53 -0700 To: Robert Sayre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 18/10/2005, at 12:38 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: >>> >>> A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed document >>> containing a set of entries that sequentially precede those in the >>> current document. > > I already have code that uses "next" for this. Why do we want to > change it? Why would your code have to change? >>> This can be thought of as specific to those >>> entries; in other words, it represents a fixed section of the feed, >>> rather than a sliding window over it. Note that the exact nature of >>> the ordering between the entries and documents containing them is >>> not defined by this relation; i.e., this relation is only relative. > > 1.) I don't understand why one feed is making assertions about the > stability of another, when your draft provides explicit signals for > this. If we go down this road, my draft will be, at the most, a users' guide to the link relations. It probably won't be necessary at all, except perhaps for false. > 2.) I still don't see how this helps me write a client. What are you looking for? People said they wanted to use atom:link, so I'm trying to accommodate that. People said they wanted the relations to be generic, so I'm trying to accommodate that. > 3.) I don't think the notion of "fixed section" is helpful. > is good, that means "don't subscribe"... I get that. It characterises the nature of the feed that's being linked to. -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 17:15:26 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ERynu-0005T2-5W for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:15:26 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA28669 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:15:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IL9Oft023311; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:09:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9IL9OwK023310; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:09:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9IL9Nu2023304 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:09:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (unknown [66.248.192.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8075D3D3E8; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:09:21 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <435551D0.4090803@gmail.com> References: <68fba5c50510180940x6cfcf0aev9ffa80bd4d788576@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181122x6e7c132bjd8acbf15391c97f6@mail.gmail.com> <0E0AA8EE-2816-4911-80F3-EA78A9F4E3A4@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181138k26cd2bcs319a65bf9ce16357@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181214hcfed595p550e7570de40c992@mail.gmail.com> <38801F1D-417C-4EF7-8297-BE4C3746CEA2@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181238r819ea0u7b7b4172c92dc940@mail.gmail.com> <435551D0.4090803@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <614B4771-F46D-4CCF-8B2F-2AF930059AB3@mnot.net> Cc: Robert Sayre , Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History / Protocol overlap Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:09:20 -0700 To: James M Snell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please disambiguate "original." On 18/10/2005, at 12:49 PM, James M Snell wrote: > +1 on all of Roberts comments. While I'm ok with the current > version, I was much happier with the original. > Robert Sayre wrote: > > >> On 10/18/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> >> >>> I'm confused; the current proposal (below) doesn't have that text in >>> it; for example, the definition of previous is: >>> >>> >> >> OK, then I am confused. >> >> >> >>>> A stable URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed document >>>> containing a set of entries that sequentially precede those in the >>>> current document. >>>> >>>> >> >> I already have code that uses "next" for this. Why do we want to >> change it? >> >> >> >>>> This can be thought of as specific to those >>>> entries; in other words, it represents a fixed section of the feed, >>>> rather than a sliding window over it. Note that the exact nature of >>>> the ordering between the entries and documents containing them is >>>> not defined by this relation; i.e., this relation is only relative. >>>> >>>> >> >> 1.) I don't understand why one feed is making assertions about the >> stability of another, when your draft provides explicit signals for >> this. >> >> 2.) I still don't see how this helps me write a client. >> >> 3.) I don't think the notion of "fixed section" is helpful. >> is good, that means "don't subscribe"... I get that. >> >> Robert Sayre >> >> >> >> > > > -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 19:22:14 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ES0mc-0007El-EH for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:22:14 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA06408 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:22:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9INDw0H035769; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:13:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9INDwW7035768; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:13:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9INDv9D035762 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:13:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i28so1052082nzi for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:13:57 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=R1AxjAV6m1GwRx2WoQV0vN1OmVJMYtwDLGzJV3RZlfAxopnkMziz5w5qLPfT47Zv7YSmxN4Zcs3JJK6OgwiXXiQ7GUfKsisjv7cwHSdj6v11K7Dwrj3vhVL42+VIqylFXW47gmbTfGR31sZjW4Lsa1P6RDhQ+kBuwvXvF4J6YFM= Received: by 10.36.18.7 with SMTP id 7mr4350272nzr; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.12.27 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c50510181613x1695a796wa6f5a4ad6238bc73@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:13:57 -0400 From: Robert Sayre To: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Feed History / Protocol overlap Cc: Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: <559448F2-6022-4785-BA9E-B1982A9017D1@mnot.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <68fba5c50510180940x6cfcf0aev9ffa80bd4d788576@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181122x6e7c132bjd8acbf15391c97f6@mail.gmail.com> <0E0AA8EE-2816-4911-80F3-EA78A9F4E3A4@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181138k26cd2bcs319a65bf9ce16357@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181214hcfed595p550e7570de40c992@mail.gmail.com> <38801F1D-417C-4EF7-8297-BE4C3746CEA2@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181238r819ea0u7b7b4172c92dc940@mail.gmail.com> <559448F2-6022-4785-BA9E-B1982A9017D1@mnot.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9INDv9D035763 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/18/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > 2.) I still don't see how this helps me write a client. > > What are you looking for? People said they wanted to use atom:link, > so I'm trying to accommodate that. People said they wanted the > relations to be generic, so I'm trying to accommodate that. I see a specific definition in a generic relation, but I don't understand what the specific definition is good for and I want the definition to be more general. rel: next definition: A URI that points to the next feed in a series of feeds. For example, in a reverse-choronological series of feeds, the 'next' URI would point deeper into the past. > > 3.) I don't think the notion of "fixed section" is helpful. > > is good, that means "don't subscribe"... I get that. > > It characterises the nature of the feed that's being linked to. I understand that. I don't understand how that enables a new feature or easier interoperation. In otherwords, the rationale for the definition seems circular to me. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 19:38:29 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ES12L-00066X-1f for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:38:29 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA07126 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:38:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9INUDND037472; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:30:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9INUD46037471; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:30:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc14.comcast.net [204.127.198.54]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9INUCB2037464 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:30:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from x-antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc14) with SMTP id <2005101823300301400j1400e>; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 23:30:04 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: <68fba5c50510181613x1695a796wa6f5a4ad6238bc73@mail.gmail.com> References: <68fba5c50510180940x6cfcf0aev9ffa80bd4d788576@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181122x6e7c132bjd8acbf15391c97f6@mail.gmail.com> <0E0AA8EE-2816-4911-80F3-EA78A9F4E3A4@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181138k26cd2bcs319a65bf9ce16357@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181214hcfed595p550e7570de40c992@mail.gmail.com> <38801F1D-417C-4EF7-8297-BE4C3746CEA2@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181238r819ea0u7b7b4172c92dc940@mail.gmail.com> <559448F2-6022-4785-BA9E-B1982A9017D1@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181613x1695a796wa6f5a4ad6238bc73@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Feed History / Protocol overlap Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:29:59 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Oct 18, 2005, at 5:13 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: > On 10/18/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: > rel: next > definition: A URI that points to the next feed in a series of feeds. > For example, in a reverse-choronological series of feeds, the 'next' > URI would point deeper into the past. Ohh, nice readability. Perhaps a few refinements: A URI that points to the next in a series of Feed documents, each representing a segment of the same feed. For example, in a reverse- chronologically ordered series of Feed documents, the 'next' URI would point to the document next further in the past. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 20:03:51 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ES1Qt-0002DY-7b for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:03:51 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA08083 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:03:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9INwPGQ039322; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:58:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9INwO3F039321; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:58:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.200]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9INwOAh039314 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:58:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id q18so1414032qba for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:58:24 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=uIfYIZaVRG1Lmbb9XeDRxW4UB2XU6DWXlhmk0SLaTHbJCWn2yc+9TaZHADjGkjj2W+ZBS0BqUOEDtU1u+NsHfI0DEoqas6m60prdvceLagECMSGC+oMYuhc4t7lWJWsTk+Z/Mf9v3aSWyXTZynNrd2Id6bFBcakydpwhctprjbM= Received: by 10.65.196.3 with SMTP id y3mr6222qbp; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:58:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id f12sm6489520qba.2005.10.18.16.58.23; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:58:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43558C1C.7060108@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:58:20 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Antone Roundy CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Feed History / Protocol overlap References: <68fba5c50510180940x6cfcf0aev9ffa80bd4d788576@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181122x6e7c132bjd8acbf15391c97f6@mail.gmail.com> <0E0AA8EE-2816-4911-80F3-EA78A9F4E3A4@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181138k26cd2bcs319a65bf9ce16357@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181214hcfed595p550e7570de40c992@mail.gmail.com> <38801F1D-417C-4EF7-8297-BE4C3746CEA2@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181238r819ea0u7b7b4172c92dc940@mail.gmail.com> <559448F2-6022-4785-BA9E-B1982A9017D1@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181613x1695a796wa6f5a4ad6238bc73@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Antone Roundy wrote: > > On Oct 18, 2005, at 5:13 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: > >> On 10/18/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> rel: next >> definition: A URI that points to the next feed in a series of feeds. >> For example, in a reverse-choronological series of feeds, the 'next' >> URI would point deeper into the past. > > > Ohh, nice readability. Perhaps a few refinements: > > A URI that points to the next in a series of Feed documents, each > representing a segment of the same feed. For example, in a reverse- > chronologically ordered series of Feed documents, the 'next' URI > would point to the document next further in the past. > > -1 because each of the feed documents may not represent a segment of the same feed. That's one potential use case, but it's not the only one. +1 to Robert's version. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 20:11:48 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ES1Ya-00066u-6l for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:11:48 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA08470 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:11:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9J04Fvu040002; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:04:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9J04F4D040001; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:04:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [63.240.77.82] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9J04FWG039992 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:04:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <2005101900040401200mig6pe>; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 00:04:09 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: <43558C1C.7060108@gmail.com> References: <68fba5c50510180940x6cfcf0aev9ffa80bd4d788576@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181122x6e7c132bjd8acbf15391c97f6@mail.gmail.com> <0E0AA8EE-2816-4911-80F3-EA78A9F4E3A4@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181138k26cd2bcs319a65bf9ce16357@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181214hcfed595p550e7570de40c992@mail.gmail.com> <38801F1D-417C-4EF7-8297-BE4C3746CEA2@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181238r819ea0u7b7b4172c92dc940@mail.gmail.com> <559448F2-6022-4785-BA9E-B1982A9017D1@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181613x1695a796wa6f5a4ad6238bc73@mail.gmail.com> <43558C1C.7060108@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <617631F3-D41D-4E58-AD4E-C77F834436F4@geckotribe.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Feed History / Protocol overlap Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:04:03 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Oct 18, 2005, at 5:58 PM, James M Snell wrote: > Antone Roundy wrote: >> On Oct 18, 2005, at 5:13 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: >>> On 10/18/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>> rel: next >>> definition: A URI that points to the next feed in a series of feeds. >>> For example, in a reverse-choronological series of feeds, the 'next' >>> URI would point deeper into the past. >> >> Ohh, nice readability. Perhaps a few refinements: >> >> A URI that points to the next in a series of Feed documents, each >> representing a segment of the same feed. For example, in a >> reverse- chronologically ordered series of Feed documents, the >> 'next' URI would point to the document next further in the past. >> > -1 because each of the feed documents may not represent a segment > of the same feed. That's one potential use case, but it's not the > only one. > +1 to Robert's version. > -3 to being that generic. Surely, even if we can only imagine one method of paging through a single feed and thus aren't concerned about conflict for use of the "next" link, "paging", if you can even call it that (okay, so maybe you're not calling it that), between feeds using the same link relation as paging within each of the feeds is not just allowing for the possibility of conflicts, it's actively inviting conflicts. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 20:18:26 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ES1f0-0000iM-Kq for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:18:26 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA08912 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:18:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9J0AuNw040401; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:10:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9J0AucY040400; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:10:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.205]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9J0AtCJ040394 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:10:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i28so1057389nzi for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:10:55 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=tmoUDhglYPHq4ocqsV7qJ9FzaWP0Ul8dqtK62bouTrgVBn61NuNE1/aryxRHwVaeCfQNx62nplJowWqxW1kS6dL62e7UlxXBApnftYwIgvfdHZswvWyJMTjHvtwyTcTDvkOD8kEYimORSqD1KEuzmnXj/kVWvDiDtUpWsB1uhIo= Received: by 10.37.12.40 with SMTP id p40mr4369527nzi; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:10:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.12.27 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:10:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c50510181710u56d93664o302efe8ccb9b2d45@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:10:55 -0400 From: Robert Sayre To: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Feed History / Protocol overlap Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <617631F3-D41D-4E58-AD4E-C77F834436F4@geckotribe.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <68fba5c50510180940x6cfcf0aev9ffa80bd4d788576@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181214hcfed595p550e7570de40c992@mail.gmail.com> <38801F1D-417C-4EF7-8297-BE4C3746CEA2@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181238r819ea0u7b7b4172c92dc940@mail.gmail.com> <559448F2-6022-4785-BA9E-B1982A9017D1@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181613x1695a796wa6f5a4ad6238bc73@mail.gmail.com> <43558C1C.7060108@gmail.com> <617631F3-D41D-4E58-AD4E-C77F834436F4@geckotribe.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9J0AtCJ040395 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/18/05, Antone Roundy wrote: > -3 to being that generic. That's a very large negative number. Can you explain how your version will me write software I otherwise couldn't? Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 21:01:03 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ES2KF-00031y-Qj for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 21:01:03 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA10717 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 21:00:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9J0s2xN044401; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:54:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9J0s2sO044400; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:54:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9J0s0l2044389 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:54:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:56:01 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:53:51 +1000 Subject: Re: Feed History / Protocol overlap From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <68fba5c50510181238r819ea0u7b7b4172c92dc940@mail.gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 19/10/05 5:38 AM, "Robert Sayre" wrote: > I already have code that uses "next" for this. Why do we want to change it? Why did you choose "next"? e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 21:06:24 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ES2PP-0005P8-Qn for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 21:06:24 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA10910 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 21:06:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9J119Ms045038; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:01:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9J119Lm045037; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:01:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9J113tO045013 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:01:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:03:01 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:00:51 +1000 Subject: Re: Are Generic Link Relations Always a Good Idea? [was: Feed History -04] From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <435563E7.8000703@cegetel.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9J119tO045032 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id VAA10910 On 19/10/05 7:06 AM, "Thomas Broyer" wrote: >> The word 'archives' is too general though. May I suggest @rel=3D"histo= ry" >> instead? > I'm not a native English speaker so=8A >=20 > =8Abut what's wrong with "archives"? IIRC, you wanted a new link relation specific to historical style archive= s. Why choose "archives" over "history" to the exclusion of other types of archives? e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 21:06:38 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ES2Pe-0005dv-Fx for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 21:06:38 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA10916 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 21:06:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9J0x5Vr044885; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:59:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9J0x5Fd044884; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:59:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.201]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9J0x3sb044866 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:59:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i28so1061856nzi for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:58:58 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=djy2reBHKaF8sJ539LIEwAnqjRLuCP4V72jTnG8Mxgue6iflBmsOTulZib+A1BVvcv+KlcZRu28/Jq6EWcniYNA9I1AGl+jjzleIIpfBn5fkpYFFNlhxaY2GVWs5qpRBWmcqBCQiXqG7WkAr2eWbI1lQMA5aZLpXymEdlVdmU5Y= Received: by 10.37.20.35 with SMTP id x35mr37365nzi; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:58:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.12.27 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:58:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c50510181758n3c2bb96cnc2d05b6920a2b74c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:58:58 -0400 From: Robert Sayre To: Eric Scheid Subject: Re: Feed History / Protocol overlap Cc: Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <68fba5c50510181238r819ea0u7b7b4172c92dc940@mail.gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9J0x4sb044878 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/18/05, Eric Scheid wrote: > > On 19/10/05 5:38 AM, "Robert Sayre" wrote: > > > I already have code that uses "next" for this. Why do we want to change it? > > Why did you choose "next"? Because that is what's already been deployed and what my software uses. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 21:17:04 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ES2Zk-00012E-3x for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 21:17:04 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA11192 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 21:16:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9J187uO045990; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:08:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9J187ie045989; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:08:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9J185B9045980 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:08:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:10:10 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:08:00 +1000 Subject: Re: Feed History / Protocol overlap From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <68fba5c50510181613x1695a796wa6f5a4ad6238bc73@mail.gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 19/10/05 9:13 AM, "Robert Sayre" wrote: > rel: next > definition: A URI that points to the next feed in a series of feeds. > For example, in a reverse-choronological series of feeds, the 'next' > URI would point deeper into the past. How will your code cope with a forward-chronological series of feeds? e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 22:07:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ES3MB-0006N9-Qh for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 22:07:08 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA13120 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 22:06:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9J1v9fN052718; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:57:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9J1v99Z052717; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:57:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc14.comcast.net (sccrmhc14.comcast.net [204.127.202.59]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9J1v8ga052704 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:57:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc14) with SMTP id <2005101901565801400gdkdle>; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 01:56:59 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: <68fba5c50510181710u56d93664o302efe8ccb9b2d45@mail.gmail.com> References: <68fba5c50510180940x6cfcf0aev9ffa80bd4d788576@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181214hcfed595p550e7570de40c992@mail.gmail.com> <38801F1D-417C-4EF7-8297-BE4C3746CEA2@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181238r819ea0u7b7b4172c92dc940@mail.gmail.com> <559448F2-6022-4785-BA9E-B1982A9017D1@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181613x1695a796wa6f5a4ad6238bc73@mail.gmail.com> <43558C1C.7060108@gmail.com> <617631F3-D41D-4E58-AD4E-C77F834436F4@geckotribe.com> <68fba5c50510181710u56d93664o302efe8ccb9b2d45@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <33372A7E-AFCA-40F8-A977-397B35FFD86D@geckotribe.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Feed History / Protocol overlap Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:56:57 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Oct 18, 2005, at 6:10 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: > On 10/18/05, Antone Roundy wrote: >> -3 to being that generic. > > That's a very large negative number. Can you explain how your version > will me write software I otherwise couldn't? Anything larger than -2 is bogomips--the point I was trying to make is that I think the idea of using the same link relation for paging within a feed and for navigating between feeds is absolutely absurd-- completely lacking in foresight--almost looks like an attempt to create for future problems. People were complaining that trying to avoid problems with the hypothetical "top 100 DVDs" scenario (not trying to solve it--just trying to avoid problems if it comes about) was wandering too far off into hypotheticals, but now people want to make sure they can use the "next" relation for the arguably even more hypothetical idea of building a chain of otherwise independent feeds? This boggles my mind. Here's what my version will let you do that you won't be able to do if the definitions of these links allows them to be used for interfeed navigation--it will enable you to do paging within a feed that is also part of a chain of feeds (because anyone wanting to create a chain of feeds will have to come up with a non-conflicting link relation to do it). It will also enable you to know that (unless somebody's breaking the spec) you are navigating through a single feed when you follow next and prev links around--that you are not jumping from feed to feed. Your software will be able to follow those links with a much greater degree of confidence that it won't result in your users complaining "what the hell are you doing showing me entries from a feed I didn't subscribe to?" It will enable your application to take more actions automatically without having to ask for confirmation from the user every time you follow another next or prev link to avoid such complaints. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 22:13:28 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ES3SK-0000Al-1O for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 22:13:28 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA13435 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 22:13:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9J25U1e053827; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:05:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9J25U86053826; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:05:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9J25S4P053820 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:05:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:07:33 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:05:23 +1000 Subject: Re: Feed History / Protocol overlap From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <68fba5c50510181758n3c2bb96cnc2d05b6920a2b74c@mail.gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 19/10/05 10:58 AM, "Robert Sayre" wrote: >>> I already have code that uses "next" for this. Why do we want to change it? >> >> Why did you choose "next"? > > Because that is what's already been deployed and what my software uses. -1. Someone else made a poor choice*, you copied that, it's confusing, why enshrine it into official specs? Why not take this opportunity to make a better choice? I looked at Pilgrim's atom feed document for March 2004 ... it said the next document was February 2004 and the previous document was April 2004. Try explaining to anyone that isn't writing an aggregator why that makes sense. There are entries written in March which are a continuation of a story written in February. So no, his feed is not reverse chronological. You might want your aggregator to process various feeds in a reverse chronological manner ... so please use the 'prev' link to go _backwards_ through the feed, and the 'next' link to go _forward_ through the feed. Though there may be many Atom 0.3 feeds out there now, all those Atom 0.3 feeds will need to be rewritten for Atom 1.0. Even so, all those Atom 0.3 feeds are, you must admit, just a drop in the ocean of the potential deployment of Atom 1.0 feeds from many many content publishers. Count the number of websites that have semi-regular news, count the number of websites that have feeds (of any flavour) ... it's a drop in the ocean. Now count the number of aggregator developers.. e. * and it's not the only poor choice that we're stuck with right now. Consider how you might link from an HTML page which is the monthly archive of your blog to an Atom Feed Document which is the XML representation of that same content. We know what @href and @type to use ... but the @rel='alternate' is already taken for the semantic of "subscribe to this feed for ongoing updates". Thankfully we're avoiding that snafu with @rel='self' vs @rel='subscribe'. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 18 23:39:16 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ES4nM-00038D-NA for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 23:39:16 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA16975 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 23:39:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9J3WdRr061444; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:32:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9J3Wd8N061443; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:32:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc14.comcast.net (sccrmhc14.comcast.net [204.127.202.59]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9J3WciR061426 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:32:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc14) with SMTP id <2005101903323201400ga5dce>; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 03:32:32 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: <33372A7E-AFCA-40F8-A977-397B35FFD86D@geckotribe.com> References: <68fba5c50510180940x6cfcf0aev9ffa80bd4d788576@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181214hcfed595p550e7570de40c992@mail.gmail.com> <38801F1D-417C-4EF7-8297-BE4C3746CEA2@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181238r819ea0u7b7b4172c92dc940@mail.gmail.com> <559448F2-6022-4785-BA9E-B1982A9017D1@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181613x1695a796wa6f5a4ad6238bc73@mail.gmail.com> <43558C1C.7060108@gmail.com> <617631F3-D41D-4E58-AD4E-C77F834436F4@geckotribe.com> <68fba5c50510181710u56d93664o302efe8ccb9b2d45@mail.gmail.com> <33372A7E-AFCA-40F8-A977-397B35FFD86D@geckotribe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Feed History / Protocol overlap Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 21:32:31 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's what this discussion makes me think of--RSS has a link element. That link was very generic, and has been variously used to link to what Atom calls link/@rel="alternate" and link/ @rel="related", and perhaps even other things. Once we'd gained a little experience and discovered that the imprecision of the meaning of the element was limiting uses we wanted to make of feeds, we created more specific types of links. Hopefully, we were specific enough this time that we won't run into significant use cases that we've rendered impossible, but who knows. Now we're defining a method of navigating through a chain of linked documents. We know of two specific use cases that we're sure we want to be able to do: paging through things like search results, and catching up on incremental feeds (or reconstructing the entire state of the feed, which is an extension of catching up). It would appear that the same link relation can be used to do both of those things without the fear of conflict, because they operate within feeds that have a basic difference in nature, so they're unlikely to both be needed within one feed. Also, from a certain point of view, they are really the same thing--a way to navigate through the current state of the feed. The fact that incremental feeds don't have old states that have been discarded and replaced the way non-incremental feeds do (their former state gets augmented rather than being replaced) doesn't make a difference with respect to the issue of navigating through their current state. So why don't we create a mechanism to do those two things (that are really one thing), and NOT make it generic enough to encompass other things that we might want to do someday, which might lead to the same sort of limitation that RSS has by only having one generic link element? Sure, we COULD do all of our interdocument navigation using "next" and "prev" until someday when we decide that we need something more specific for some of the navigation use cases. But then we'll be doing some of the same things multiple ways--some people sticking with "next" and "prev", and some using whatever new methods or link relations are invented, and nobody quite sure what "next" and "prev" mean in any particular feed. Why not wait till we've really figured out what other ways we might want to navigate between documents, and then devise a new method for doing it? If we're going to create some generic link relations for people to experiment with, let's create somethings that's explicitly for doing experimental things with so that the link relations we want to do more specific things with aren't rendered less useful by the experimentation. Register "x-next" and "x-prev" or something for that, or register "next-page" and "prev-page" for the things we know we want to do. Or don't register any such thing--just don't promote use of the the link relations we define for (reasonably) well understood use cases to do experimental things. We'll, I've spoken my mind plenty on this issue, so unless somebody brings up an issue that my opinion on couldn't be understood from what I've written already, I think I'll leave it at that. If we go with a highly-generic definition and it causes trouble down the road, I'll have some big ASCII art letters ready to say "I told you so". If not, then oops, I guess I was wrong. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Oct 19 02:50:57 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ES7mr-00015H-2t for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 02:50:57 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA25270 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 02:50:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9J6i8V5085835; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 23:44:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9J6i8sg085834; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 23:44:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf00.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.67]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9J6i6SX085819 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 23:44:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from monmail.cegetel.net (217-19-192-110.dti.cegetel.net [217.19.192.110]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with SMTP id D413B1A4455; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:44:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 194.250.147.107 (SquirrelMail authenticated user t.broyer@cegetel.net) by monmail.cegetel.net with HTTP; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:44:01 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <1621.194.250.147.107.1129704241.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> In-Reply-To: References: <68fba5c50510180940x6cfcf0aev9ffa80bd4d788576@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181122x6e7c132bjd8acbf15391c97f6@mail.gmail.com> <0E0AA8EE-2816-4911-80F3-EA78A9F4E3A4@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181138k26cd2bcs319a65bf9ce16357@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181214hcfed595p550e7570de40c992@mail.gmail.com> <38801F1D-417C-4EF7-8297-BE4C3746CEA2@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181238r819ea0u7b7b4172c92dc940@mail.gmail.com> <559448F2-6022-4785-BA9E-B1982A9017D1@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181613x1695a796wa6f5a4ad6238bc73@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:44:01 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Feed History / Protocol overlap From: "Thomas Broyer" To: "Antone Roundy" Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id CAA25270 Antone Roundy wrote: > On Oct 18, 2005, at 5:13 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: >> rel: next >> definition: A URI that points to the next feed in a series of feeds. >> For example, in a reverse-choronological series of feeds, the 'next' >> URI would point deeper into the past. > > Ohh, nice readability. Perhaps a few refinements: > > A URI that points to the next in a series of Feed documents, each > representing a segment of the same feed. For example, in a reverse- > chronologically ordered series of Feed documents, the 'next' URI > would point to the document next further in the past. +1, *this* is "paging". We could add another example, e.g. sorted by relevance (within a search result) or priority=85 If you want to link between different "states" of "Top 100" feeds (October, September, August, etc), then use something like @rel=3D"archiv= es" or @rel=3D"history", or define a @rel=3D"previous-archive" if you really = want to navigate directly to the other feed without having to go through a "table of contents" feed. If some people here prefers "next-chunk" or "next-page" to just "next", why not, my mind is open=85 --=20 Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Oct 19 12:17:00 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ESGce-0003bW-AC for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:17:00 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA26113 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:16:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9JG81VM082115; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:08:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9JG81fc082114; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:08:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.204]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9JG80Be082107 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:08:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i28so70387nzi for ; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:08:00 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=m2qbLOhA0pt9Jzl4AjwvZWwu0uxghietYSdRYDyMa3oz48b+nHYuiFfdn61sKgU7vFrb6tlP/CVDYKn7jkPxpHbIuCsUyuPxRzuVZE5vAsM8VA+sAo3eJ4qY0aboqts3TYEusqoha5NMVjOBBhBRSrvAYJmbcoog6oU1RjyOEAE= Received: by 10.37.12.1 with SMTP id p1mr678288nzi; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:08:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.12.27 with HTTP; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:08:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c50510190908o28c47e80s3cdbfeb554399a53@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:08:00 -0400 From: Robert Sayre To: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: Are Generic Link Relations Always a Good Idea? [was: Feed History -04] Cc: Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: <0FE04CCF-527A-421E-8708-806E5C229ED7@mnot.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <4353F21E.7030206@cegetel.net> <4A08C2D9-437B-4615-8841-BD0396906A3F@bea.com> <4353FD94.5010206@gmail.com> <68fba5c50510171315g32e74b1bi5329b8e5bae435e3@mail.gmail.com> <0FE04CCF-527A-421E-8708-806E5C229ED7@mnot.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9JG80Be082108 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/17/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Robert, > > It's a matter of personal preference as to whether one likes 'prev' > or 'next'; ... > My concern is that if there is more than one use of a link relation > like 'next' or 'prev', those uses could conflict. ... > This is why I'm leaning towards "prev-archive". OK. 'prev-archive' is fine. Let's throw it against the wall see if it sticks. No amount of atom-syntax traffic is going to resolve this. We'll see if it turns out to be useful. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Oct 19 13:19:28 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ESHb5-0001Dr-LJ for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:19:28 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA29584 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:19:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9JHCbkv092572; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:12:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9JHCb6o092571; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:12:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9JHCake092565 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:12:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 897933CA45; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:12:29 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <1621.194.250.147.107.1129704241.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> References: <68fba5c50510180940x6cfcf0aev9ffa80bd4d788576@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181122x6e7c132bjd8acbf15391c97f6@mail.gmail.com> <0E0AA8EE-2816-4911-80F3-EA78A9F4E3A4@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181138k26cd2bcs319a65bf9ce16357@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181214hcfed595p550e7570de40c992@mail.gmail.com> <38801F1D-417C-4EF7-8297-BE4C3746CEA2@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181238r819ea0u7b7b4172c92dc940@mail.gmail.com> <559448F2-6022-4785-BA9E-B1982A9017D1@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181613x1695a796wa6f5a4ad6238bc73@mail.gmail.com> <1621.194.250.147.107.1129704241.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: "Antone Roundy" , atom-syntax@imc.org X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: General/Specific [was: Feed History / Protocol overlap] Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:12:26 -0700 To: Thomas Broyer X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9JHCake092566 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id NAA29584 "next" "next-chunk" "next-page" "next-archive" "next-entries" are all workable for me. I think the real question is still (unfortunately) how specific it =20 should be. I think there are merits to both sides; the relative cost of a =20 specific term isn't much, and the harm of a general term is largely =20 theoretical at this point. So, I'm at a point where I'm more =20 interested in moving forward than in a particular solution. Perhaps people could +1/-1 the following options: * Reconstructing a feed should use: a) a specific relation, e.g., "prev-archive" b) a generic relation, e.g., "previous" (these are just examples; once we figure out how specific it should =20 be, we can figure out a term more easily) I'm +1 on both. On 18/10/2005, at 11:44 PM, Thomas Broyer wrote: > > > Antone Roundy wrote: > > >> On Oct 18, 2005, at 5:13 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: >> >> >>> rel: next >>> definition: A URI that points to the next feed in a series of feeds. >>> For example, in a reverse-choronological series of feeds, the 'next' >>> URI would point deeper into the past. >>> >>> >> >> Ohh, nice readability. Perhaps a few refinements: >> >> A URI that points to the next in a series of Feed documents, each >> representing a segment of the same feed. For example, in a reverse- >> chronologically ordered series of Feed documents, the 'next' URI >> would point to the document next further in the past. >> >> > > +1, *this* is "paging". > > We could add another example, e.g. sorted by relevance (within a =20 > search > result) or priority=85 > > If you want to link between different "states" of "Top 100" feeds > (October, September, August, etc), then use something like =20 > @rel=3D"archives" > or @rel=3D"history", or define a @rel=3D"previous-archive" if you =20 > really want > to navigate directly to the other feed without having to go through a > "table of contents" feed. > > If some people here prefers "next-chunk" or "next-page" to just =20 > "next", > why not, my mind is open=85 > > --=20 > Thomas Broyer > > > > -- Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist Office of the CTO BEA Systems -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Oct 19 14:09:06 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ESIN8-0006Nn-3Z for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:09:06 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA02948 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:08:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9JI2eOo097884; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:02:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9JI2e4U097883; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:02:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.198]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9JI2dPn097868 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:02:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id q18so157849qba for ; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:02:35 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=JywkxIzYwxjhAFSGLqx+stPOyRvZ6dbXY93Rl9lv51Fhdi1eNfG/WTJW5BfdYaSyDqRayPI2T7kPI8jEgK4IJlYD3t/lB5xvFdVf69Hld3CiG9aIVb2eN74WUFdccpuJDcMAsKL8fRNbeNKhAUPm10ymlPAMa2jbAqxsoRaSFkA= Received: by 10.65.145.15 with SMTP id x15mr741022qbn; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e14sm3713544qba.2005.10.19.11.02.33; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:02:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43568A37.3040100@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:02:31 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham CC: Thomas Broyer , Antone Roundy , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: General/Specific [was: Feed History / Protocol overlap] References: <68fba5c50510180940x6cfcf0aev9ffa80bd4d788576@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181122x6e7c132bjd8acbf15391c97f6@mail.gmail.com> <0E0AA8EE-2816-4911-80F3-EA78A9F4E3A4@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181138k26cd2bcs319a65bf9ce16357@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181214hcfed595p550e7570de40c992@mail.gmail.com> <38801F1D-417C-4EF7-8297-BE4C3746CEA2@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181238r819ea0u7b7b4172c92dc940@mail.gmail.com> <559448F2-6022-4785-BA9E-B1982A9017D1@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181613x1695a796wa6f5a4ad6238bc73@mail.gmail.com> <1621.194.250.147.107.1129704241.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Nottingham wrote: > > Perhaps people could +1/-1 the following options: > > * Reconstructing a feed should use: > a) a specific relation, e.g., "prev-archive" -1. We've got more paging use cases to think about than just archives. OpenSearch already demonstrates that. > b) a generic relation, e.g., "previous" +1. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Oct 19 14:11:58 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ESIPu-0006wh-IQ for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:11:58 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA03122 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:11:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9JI2vqY097944; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:02:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9JI2vbT097943; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:02:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9JI2uTV097908 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:02:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2005101918025101400edg8he>; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:02:51 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: General/Specific [was: Feed History / Protocol overlap] Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:02:49 -0600 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Oct 19, 2005, at 11:12 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > "next" > "next-chunk" > "next-page" > "next-archive" > "next-entries" > are all workable for me. > ... > Perhaps people could +1/-1 the following options: > > * Reconstructing a feed should use: > a) a specific relation, e.g., "prev-archive" > b) a generic relation, e.g., "previous" I'd prefer "prev-page". "prev-archive" doesn't sound right for paging through search results. Also, "prev-archive" or "next- archive" (whichever ends up going forward in time) doesn't quite work if the final step forward points to the subscription feed URI (which isn't an "archive". That's a small matter since it's only that last step, but in search results type cases, "archive" would definitely be odd. Just a little follow up on what I wrote last night about generic vs. specific link relations: "related" is a generic term that is likely to be a bit of a catch-all for links that don't have a specific relation defined for them. "alternate" is a specific relation created for one of the major historical use cases for rss/link. The proposed but not accepted "about" would have been the specific relation for the other major use case that rss/link was commonly used for. "related" could conceivably handle the hypothetical use case of traversing a chain of different feeds--you'd just have to remember which "related" link to a feed document you had already traversed to know which one to follow next to continue down the chain. It wouldn't be quite as nice for such an application as having a "next" and "prev" for that use, but I'd rather see it done that way till it's clear that such a thing is even needed than see intrafeed paging links used for interfeed navigation. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Oct 19 14:32:36 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ESIjs-0000ww-Cv for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:32:36 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA05399 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:32:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9JIQeAF000495; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:26:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9JIQeXQ000494; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:26:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav18.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.89] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9JIQeUk000488 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:26:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:26:39 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV17.phx.gbl with DAV; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:26:39 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: References: <68fba5c50510180940x6cfcf0aev9ffa80bd4d788576@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181122x6e7c132bjd8acbf15391c97f6@mail.gmail.com> <0E0AA8EE-2816-4911-80F3-EA78A9F4E3A4@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181138k26cd2bcs319a65bf9ce16357@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181214hcfed595p550e7570de40c992@mail.gmail.com> <38801F1D-417C-4EF7-8297-BE4C3746CEA2@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181238r819ea0u7b7b4172c92dc940@mail.gmail.com> <559448F2-6022-4785-BA9E-B1982A9017D1@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181613x1695a796wa6f5a4ad6238bc73@mail.gmail.com> <1621.194.250.147.107.1129704241.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> Subject: Re: General/Specific [was: Feed History / Protocol overlap] Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 19:26:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Oct 2005 18:26:39.0790 (UTC) FILETIME=[A5B3A4E0:01C5D4DA] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > * Reconstructing a feed should use: > a) a specific relation, e.g., "prev-archive" +0 > b) a generic relation, e.g., "previous" +1 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Oct 19 15:00:39 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ESJB1-00056y-1u for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:00:39 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA06905 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:00:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9JIrDOn002951; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:53:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9JIrDYA002950; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:53:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf00.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.67]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9JIrCCt002938 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:53:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.5.59.172]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F6191A5153; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 20:53:06 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <43569607.5010101@cegetel.net> Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 20:52:55 +0200 From: Thomas Broyer User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.4 (Windows/20050908) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Antone Roundy , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: General/Specific [was: Feed History / Protocol overlap] References: <68fba5c50510180940x6cfcf0aev9ffa80bd4d788576@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181122x6e7c132bjd8acbf15391c97f6@mail.gmail.com> <0E0AA8EE-2816-4911-80F3-EA78A9F4E3A4@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181138k26cd2bcs319a65bf9ce16357@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181214hcfed595p550e7570de40c992@mail.gmail.com> <38801F1D-417C-4EF7-8297-BE4C3746CEA2@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181238r819ea0u7b7b4172c92dc940@mail.gmail.com> <559448F2-6022-4785-BA9E-B1982A9017D1@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181613x1695a796wa6f5a4ad6238bc73@mail.gmail.com> <1621.194.250.147.107.1129704241.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Nottingham wrote: > Perhaps people could +1/-1 the following options: > > * Reconstructing a feed should use: > a) a specific relation, e.g., "prev-archive" -1, (see James' comments) > b) a generic relation, e.g., "previous" +1 -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Oct 19 15:02:52 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ESJD9-0005tC-PD for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:02:52 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA06974 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:02:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9JIuhDf003531; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:56:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9JIuhmV003530; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:56:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chilco.textdrive.com (chilco.textdrive.com [207.7.108.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9JIugoY003521 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:56:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: from [192.168.2.180] (83-70-29-35.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net [83.70.29.35]) by chilco.textdrive.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0E84DA951 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:56:51 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <435696DB.1030209@dehora.net> Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 19:56:27 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Feed History / Protocol overlap References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Scheid wrote: > On 19/10/05 10:58 AM, "Robert Sayre" wrote: > > >>>>I already have code that uses "next" for this. Why do we want to change it? >>> >>>Why did you choose "next"? >> >>Because that is what's already been deployed and what my software uses. > > > -1. > > Someone else made a poor choice*, you copied that, it's confusing, why > enshrine it into official specs? Why not take this opportunity to make a > better choice? > > I looked at Pilgrim's atom feed document for March 2004 ... it said the next > document was February 2004 and the previous document was April 2004. Try > explaining to anyone that isn't writing an aggregator why that makes sense. "No matter which direction you head in, no matter which way the chain is sorted, the next document is always "next", so that's not a useful distinction IMHO. " You said that to me about next and previous for app:collection when I reuested the value 'next' be changed to 'previous' to be consistent with the notion of elements existing earlier in time. What's different here? cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Oct 19 15:14:03 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ESJNy-0002Aa-Hs for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:14:03 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA07642 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:13:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9JJ6CqB004414; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:06:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9JJ6CZH004413; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:06:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9JJ68nu004392 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:06:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Thu, 20 Oct 2005 05:08:09 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 05:05:17 +1000 Subject: Re: General/Specific [was: Feed History / Protocol overlap] From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 20/10/05 3:12 AM, "Mark Nottingham" wrote: > b) a generic relation, e.g., "previous" +1 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Oct 19 15:20:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ESJU3-000590-Dg for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:20:19 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA07965 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:20:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9JJCRTs004988; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:12:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9JJCREg004987; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:12:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf00.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.67]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9JJCPDK004980 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:12:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.5.59.172]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06AAD1A4D11; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 21:12:19 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <43569A94.5070806@cegetel.net> Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 21:12:20 +0200 From: Thomas Broyer User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.4 (Windows/20050908) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thomas Broyer Cc: Mark Nottingham , Antone Roundy , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: General/Specific [was: Feed History / Protocol overlap] References: <68fba5c50510180940x6cfcf0aev9ffa80bd4d788576@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181122x6e7c132bjd8acbf15391c97f6@mail.gmail.com> <0E0AA8EE-2816-4911-80F3-EA78A9F4E3A4@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181138k26cd2bcs319a65bf9ce16357@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181214hcfed595p550e7570de40c992@mail.gmail.com> <38801F1D-417C-4EF7-8297-BE4C3746CEA2@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181238r819ea0u7b7b4172c92dc940@mail.gmail.com> <559448F2-6022-4785-BA9E-B1982A9017D1@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181613x1695a796wa6f5a4ad6238bc73@mail.gmail.com> <1621.194.250.147.107.1129704241.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> <43569607.5010101@cegetel.net> In-Reply-To: <43569607.5010101@cegetel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id PAA07965 Thomas Broyer wrote: > > Mark Nottingham wrote: >> Perhaps people could +1/-1 the following options: >> >> * Reconstructing a feed should use: >> a) a specific relation, e.g., "prev-archive" > -1, (see James' comments) >> b) a generic relation, e.g., "previous" > +1 > Hmm, I might have answered a bit too fast=85 "previous" might be too generic and thus be used for things other than=20 paging through a feed (would it be incremental =96feed reconstruction=96 = or=20 not =96search result, etc.), so I'd +1 to "previous-page". On the other hand, if we don't register "previous" now, someone might=20 register it later for something else (don't know what the IESG can=20 approve=85), with the same potential misuses=85 But if we register "archives" or "history" at the same time (or, say,=20 quite early in Atom the 1.0 deployment), misuses (the most common I=20 think, using previous/next for inter-"feed state" linking, e.g. linking=20 from the October Top 100 non-incremental feed to the September Top 100=20 non-incremental feed) could be prevented=85 We should then also add a not= e=20 in the previous/next description telling people not to use them for such=20 things as described earlier, maybe also using the term "page" or=20 "paging" explicitly=85 As a result, I'm still -1 on prev-archive and +1 on previous, but add a=20 +.75 on "previous-page". --=20 Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Oct 19 15:44:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ESJr8-00008I-Qw for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:44:10 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA09262 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:43:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9JJZGSf007707; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:35:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9JJZGn2007706; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:35:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9JJZFZs007699 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:35:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Thu, 20 Oct 2005 05:37:19 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 05:35:10 +1000 Subject: Re: Feed History / Protocol overlap From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <435696DB.1030209@dehora.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> Ok, somehow this slipped under the radar on me during >>> my first reading. -1, as I prefer next, as in, the *next* >>> document in a chain of documents. > >> "No matter which direction you head in, no matter which way the chain is >> sorted, the next document is always "next", so that's not a useful >> distinction IMHO. " > > You said that to me about next and previous for app:collection when I > requested the value 'next' be changed to 'previous' to be consistent > with the notion of elements existing earlier in time. > What's different here? Nothing. I should have been more clear back then that I was +1 on 'previous'... my point was directed at Joe (not you), and that his line of argument (in favour of 'next') was not persuasive and so if he wanted 'next' then he'd better try another line of argument. As then as now, I'm still +1 on 'previous' for going backwards. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 20 06:34:43 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ESXkx-0007us-9F for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 06:34:43 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA00789 for ; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 06:34:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9KARb1L092783; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 03:27:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9KARbcI092782; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 03:27:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from krusty.greenbytes.de (pd95b23e9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [217.91.35.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9KARaT8092773 for ; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 03:27:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stefan.eissing@greenbytes.de) Received: from [192.168.1.26] (burns.greenbytes.de [192.168.1.26]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by krusty.greenbytes.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB9986B9D4A8; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:28:36 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: References: <68fba5c50510180940x6cfcf0aev9ffa80bd4d788576@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181122x6e7c132bjd8acbf15391c97f6@mail.gmail.com> <0E0AA8EE-2816-4911-80F3-EA78A9F4E3A4@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181138k26cd2bcs319a65bf9ce16357@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181214hcfed595p550e7570de40c992@mail.gmail.com> <38801F1D-417C-4EF7-8297-BE4C3746CEA2@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181238r819ea0u7b7b4172c92dc940@mail.gmail.com> <559448F2-6022-4785-BA9E-B1982A9017D1@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181613x1695a796wa6f5a4ad6238bc73@mail.gmail.com> <1621.194.250.147.107.1129704241.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <17da026db500e5eee3f74bd4e8718bbd@greenbytes.de> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Syntax Atom From: Stefan Eissing Subject: Re: General/Specific [was: Feed History / Protocol overlap] Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:27:35 +0200 To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Am 19.10.2005 um 19:12 schrieb Mark Nottingham: > * Reconstructing a feed should use: > a) a specific relation, e.g., "prev-archive" +0 > b) a generic relation, e.g., "previous" +1 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 20 09:50:49 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ESaoj-0005Mh-LI for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:50:49 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA12706 for ; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:50:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9KDdXHU012432; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 06:39:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9KDdXBu012431; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 06:39:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.195]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9KDdWj4012425 for ; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 06:39:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id q18so104759qba for ; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 06:39:31 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=feDoXOHfrEiHjMGx/kOPPUftb0fixHSiDDCKYCCbqMRMmz/ojklk4oXFpK+QHPa20x/eqFWfW8+6ZXxqxjAJb63N+yebgHLtRtxhYoAoV3WFNDbT++Nfan6VaW/3a/B+E1PmkPAn3hXpb1QHEJ5lgfw/7vDOS4S8POlQjkcBnFk= Received: by 10.65.112.17 with SMTP id p17mr1500111qbm; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 06:39:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.75.18 with HTTP; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 06:39:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3f1451f50510200639n7e8f5036t4446825672d53369@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:39:31 -0400 From: Joe Gregorio To: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: General/Specific [was: Feed History / Protocol overlap] Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <68fba5c50510180940x6cfcf0aev9ffa80bd4d788576@mail.gmail.com> <68fba5c50510181214hcfed595p550e7570de40c992@mail.gmail.com> <38801F1D-417C-4EF7-8297-BE4C3746CEA2@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181238r819ea0u7b7b4172c92dc940@mail.gmail.com> <559448F2-6022-4785-BA9E-B1982A9017D1@mnot.net> <68fba5c50510181613x1695a796wa6f5a4ad6238bc73@mail.gmail.com> <1621.194.250.147.107.1129704241.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9KDdWj4012426 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/19/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Perhaps people could +1/-1 the following options: > > * Reconstructing a feed should use: > a) a specific relation, e.g., "prev-archive" -1 > b) a generic relation, e.g., "previous" +1 -joe -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 20 19:58:24 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ESkIh-0008OB-EI for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:58:24 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA10960 for ; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:58:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9KNqhuM077212; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:52:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9KNqhYY077211; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:52:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9KNqgUi077205 for ; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:52:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (unknown [66.248.192.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B92973D398 for ; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:52:41 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:52:39 -0700 To: Atom Syntax X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At this point, I believe the following represent as close to consensus as we're able to get (although I'm happy to be proven wrong, as long as there are counterproposals that can gain consensus). To move forward, please either +1 or -1 them, preferably with replacement text if you -1. Once there seems to be rough consensus, I plan to make a request to IANA and point the IESG to this discussion thread to illuminate their deliberations. - Attribute Value: previous - Description: A URI that refers to the immediately preceding document in a series of documents. - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a different authority than the current document). Such agents should also take care to detect circular references. - Attribute Value: next - Description: A URI that refers to the immediately following document in a series of documents. - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a different authority than the current document). Such agents should also take care to detect circular references. - Attribute Value: first - Description: A URI that refers to the furthest preceding document in a series of documents. - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a different authority than the current document). Such agents should also take care to detect circular references. - Attribute Value: last - Description: A URI that refers to the furthest following document in a series of documents. - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a different authority than the current document). Such agents should also take care to detect circular references. - Attribute Value: subscribe - Description: A URI that refers to a feed document containing a set of the most recent entries in the feed. This URI is intended to be subscribed to to keep abreast of recent changes in the feed. When different from the URI of the document where it occurs, it indicates that its value should be used for this purpose in place of the current document's URI. - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. - Security considerations: Users should be informed of the actual URI they are subscribing to, and subscription should only take place when it is explicitly requested. -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 20 20:13:05 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ESkWv-0002IB-Ny for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 20:13:05 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA12030 for ; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 20:12:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9L06NRd079438; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:06:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9L06Nl3079437; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:06:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.201]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9L06Mm0079431 for ; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:06:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i32so185765wra for ; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:06:22 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=CrdK7NpwuwKnocnL0P/eoFkHIHxaj2BETsq9c2t5rbsb8uLxrnfQ+sVAAvAudRJ25f3c2vtleUZqYwuL1YyGU7xAup4t77OLt+NKwWas4V10baytywFPquyAUddj+JELYqG7xgMLJCmkxsAIMlP2vgH35RGXSWHx+zaik2MRyNo= Received: by 10.54.99.10 with SMTP id w10mr1183074wrb; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:06:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 40sm491982wrl.2005.10.20.17.06.21; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:06:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <435830F9.1040408@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:06:17 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +1 to one and all. This is perfect. Mark Nottingham wrote: > > At this point, I believe the following represent as close to > consensus as we're able to get (although I'm happy to be proven > wrong, as long as there are counterproposals that can gain consensus). > > To move forward, please either +1 or -1 them, preferably with > replacement text if you -1. Once there seems to be rough consensus, I > plan to make a request to IANA and point the IESG to this discussion > thread to illuminate their deliberations. > > - Attribute Value: previous > - Description: A URI that refers to the immediately preceding > document in a series of documents. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when > this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a > different authority than the current document). Such agents should > also take care to detect circular references. > > - Attribute Value: next > - Description: A URI that refers to the immediately following > document in a series of documents. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when > this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a > different authority than the current document). Such agents should > also take care to detect circular references. > > - Attribute Value: first > - Description: A URI that refers to the furthest preceding document > in a series of documents. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when > this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a > different authority than the current document). Such agents should > also take care to detect circular references. > > - Attribute Value: last > - Description: A URI that refers to the furthest following document > in a series of documents. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when > this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a > different authority than the current document). Such agents should > also take care to detect circular references. > > - Attribute Value: subscribe > - Description: A URI that refers to a feed document containing a > set of the most recent entries in the feed. This URI is intended to > be subscribed to to keep abreast of recent changes in the feed. When > different from the URI of the document where it occurs, it indicates > that its value should be used for this purpose in place of the > current document's URI. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: Users should be informed of the actual > URI they are subscribing to, and subscription should only take place > when it is explicitly requested. > > > -- > Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 20 20:53:39 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ESlAB-0000R8-5v for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 20:53:39 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA13483 for ; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 20:53:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9L0m9UP083268; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:48:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9L0m9gG083267; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:48:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9L0m8N4083257 for ; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:48:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:50:08 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:47:57 +1000 Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +1 to all From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 01:47:43 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ESpkk-00072K-T0 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 01:47:43 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA28445 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 01:47:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9L5cH1H008402; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 22:38:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9L5cHp2008401; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 22:38:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav6.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.78]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9L5cG4h008395 for ; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 22:38:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 22:38:16 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV6.phx.gbl with DAV; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 05:38:15 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Mark Nottingham" , "Atom Syntax" References: Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 06:38:15 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Oct 2005 05:38:16.0023 (UTC) FILETIME=[A28A9670:01C5D601] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +1 to all Just a minor grammatical quibble regarding the text for "subscribe": the phrases ending with a preposition seem somewhat awkward to me - in particular the double "to". If you think I'm being overly dogmatic, though, feel free too ignore. Possible replacement text: - Attribute Value: subscribe - Description: A URI that refers to a feed document containing a set of the most recent entries in the feed. This is the URI to which a UA should subscribe to keep abreast of changes in the feed. When different from the URI of the document where it occurs, it indicates that its value should be used for this purpose in place of the current document's URI. - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. - Security considerations: Users should be informed of the actual URI to which they are subscribing, and subscription should only take place when it is explicitly requested. I'm not sure about the use of UA though: should that be client? agent? Atom processor? Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 05:51:11 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EStYN-0002jF-JT for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 05:51:11 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA10552 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 05:50:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9L9genf054777; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 02:42:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9L9ger7054776; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 02:42:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9L9gagi054757 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 02:42:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 21753 invoked by uid 17064); 21 Oct 2005 09:42:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO localhost) ([127.0.0.1]) (envelope-sender ) by 127.0.0.1 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 21 Oct 2005 09:42:36 -0000 Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 02:42:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Henry Story X-X-Sender: hjs@bblfish.net To: Eric Scheid cc: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051021024204.N18135@bblfish.net> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: +1 to all too. On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Eric Scheid wrote: > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:47:57 +1000 > From: Eric Scheid > To: Atom Syntax > Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? > > > +1 to all > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 10:04:57 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ESxVw-0003AN-Ss for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:04:57 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA23442 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:04:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LDundk005024; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 06:56:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LDunTK005023; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 06:56:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LDumHw005015 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 06:56:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from fe-amer-09.sun.com ([192.18.108.183]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LDumk8026256 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:56:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.11 (built Jan 28 2005)) id <0IOP00101QP83N00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:56:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.31] ([216.113.201.135]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.11 (built Jan 28 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0IOP0051VQQKZ7Z6@mail-amer.sun.com>; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:56:44 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 06:57:23 -0700 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? In-reply-to: To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Atom Syntax Message-id: <1D96FDC9-2B92-4AF1-A06A-47541AA3C746@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Oct 20, 2005, at 4:52 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > - Attribute Value: subscribe I'm puzzled by this one. I thought that if you wanted to subscribe to a feed then, well, you would subscribe to a feed. I must have missed the discussion. Could someone provide a pointer to the archive? -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 10:45:40 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ESy9M-0008V8-Oe for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:45:40 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA25492 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:45:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LEckIA012785; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:38:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LEckqf012784; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:38:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav2.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.74]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LEckIw012756 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:38:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:38:41 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV2.phx.gbl with DAV; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:38:40 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: <1D96FDC9-2B92-4AF1-A06A-47541AA3C746@sun.com> Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:38:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Oct 2005 14:38:41.0028 (UTC) FILETIME=[2159B440:01C5D64D] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > > On Oct 20, 2005, at 4:52 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> - Attribute Value: subscribe > > I'm puzzled by this one. I thought that if you wanted to subscribe to a > feed then, well, you would subscribe to a feed. I must have missed the > discussion. Could someone provide a pointer to the archive? -Tim > The idea being that if you were to come across an archived Atom document (however that might happen), the presence of this link would, (a) let you know that it was an archive document and thus shouldn't be subscribed to, and (b) provide you with a URL with which you could subscribe to the actual feed if you so chose. For reference, see here (end of the message): http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg17202.html Also this thread (discusses the fh:archive element which served a similar purpose): http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg16724.html Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 11:05:34 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ESySc-0006nR-E8 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:05:34 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA28685 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:05:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LEv3rh016101; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:57:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LEv3JB016100; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:57:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LEuuXX016066 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:56:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Sat, 22 Oct 2005 00:58:57 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 00:56:46 +1000 Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1D96FDC9-2B92-4AF1-A06A-47541AA3C746@sun.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 21/10/05 11:57 PM, "Tim Bray" wrote: > I'm puzzled by this one. I thought that if you wanted to subscribe > to a feed then, well, you would subscribe to a feed. I must have > missed the discussion. This arose during the discussion of Atom Feed Documents as archives. It was thought that the 'self' link in an archive would point to the archive document itself, which meant a different relationship was needed for the purpose of locating the URI which is the one that contains the most recent updates/entries. Start somewhere near here: http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg17208.html e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 11:14:51 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ESybb-0003Zc-0z for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:14:51 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA02191 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:14:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LF9od1018841; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:09:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LF9ofQ018840; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:09:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf00.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.67]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LF9mrD018809 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:09:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from monmail.cegetel.net (217-19-192-109.dti.cegetel.net [217.19.192.109]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 0BB7C1A446D; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:09:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 194.250.147.107 (SquirrelMail authenticated user t.broyer@cegetel.net) by monmail.cegetel.net with HTTP; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:09:43 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <3895.194.250.147.107.1129907383.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:09:43 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? From: "Thomas Broyer" To: "Mark Nottingham" Cc: "Atom Syntax" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mark Nottingham wrote: > - Attribute Value: previous > - Description: A URI that refers to the immediately preceding > document in a series of documents. This definition doesn't prevent someone from using this link relation for linking within a series of documents representing, say a "webring", where "previous" and "next" will be other sites' feeds. I really think we should make it clear that first/previous/next/last are meant for "paging" of a single feed only. I'll try to propose a replacement text. > - Attribute Value: subscribe +1 -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 11:26:38 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ESyn0-0003Qw-Ip for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:26:38 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA07190 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:26:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LFIxQx020536; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:18:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LFIxqZ020535; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:18:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LFIwGQ020521 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:18:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from fe-amer-10.sun.com ([192.18.108.184]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LFIweT006847 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:18:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.11 (built Jan 28 2005)) id <0IOP00M01UJ4HU00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:18:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.31] ([216.113.201.135]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.11 (built Jan 28 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0IOP00674UJKVKV9@mail-amer.sun.com>; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:18:57 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:19:32 -0700 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? In-reply-to: To: James Holderness Cc: Atom Syntax Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 References: <1D96FDC9-2B92-4AF1-A06A-47541AA3C746@sun.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Oct 21, 2005, at 7:38 AM, James Holderness wrote: > The idea being that if you were to come across an archived Atom > document (however that might happen), the presence of this link > would, (a) let you know that it was an archive document and thus > shouldn't be subscribed to, and (b) provide you with a URL with > which you could subscribe to the actual feed if you so chose. Makes sense, but not self-evident. I would think that the usefulness of this thing would be improved by a few words of explanation for those who come upon it without knowing the history. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 11:39:49 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ESyzk-0004P8-0a for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:39:49 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA12367 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:39:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LFXnXY023288; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:33:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LFXnfV023287; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:33:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9LFXlGa023268 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:33:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 21 Oct 2005 15:33:35 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-245-228.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.245.228] by mail.gmx.net (mp024) with SMTP; 21 Oct 2005 17:33:35 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:33:31 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? Message-ID: <20051021153331.GA32465@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <1D96FDC9-2B92-4AF1-A06A-47541AA3C746@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id LAA12367 * Eric Scheid [2005-10-21 17:05]: > It was thought that the 'self' link in an archive would point > to the archive document itself, which meant a different > relationship was needed for the purpose of locating the URI > which is the one that contains the most recent updates/entries. I admit I intentionally kept out of that discussion because I don=E2=80=99t have a lot of personal interest in the subject, and the thread has been so fast and furious I didn=E2=80=99t bother staying on top of it just because. But I=E2=80=99d like to offer some thoughts on this particular point; apologies in advance if these points have already been raised: First, rel=3D"self" is going to be implemented by most everything that groks Atom 1.0 in order to support one-click subscription, if applicable, right? Whereas this new relationship might not find such wide-spread support. Second, although less important =E2=80=93 even applications which do support rel=3D"subscribe" will have to implement a fallback behaviour. Arguably, they already do in some fashion, because a feed may omit the rel=3D"self" link, so I don=E2=80=99t know if this is such a pressing issue. For these two (similar) reasons I think it might be wise to keep rel=3D"self" in the role that this new rel=3D"subscribe" thing is supposed to fulfill, and invent a new relationship that can point to the canonical location of the archive feed document. Third, and in some ways most importantly, I see overlap with Bob Wyman=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9Cpreferred feed=E2=80=9D agenda from way back whe= n: http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg15001.html Does anyone remember that? Maybe it would be wise to opt for something slightly more generic that can express semantics useful for feed scenarios other than archives? Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 11:47:28 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ESz79-0001qq-Pb for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:47:28 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA14208 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:47:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LFg8hk024254; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:42:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LFg8Fe024253; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:42:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.203]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LFg7oc024247 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:42:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i28so349885nzi for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:42:07 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=TKtxPD5iwhlw9lJ0uWR5Hn18c2ErXhCF9yhS7ZxMC8fdXvvdiTc7q1E5/+rrf8gAaYj0s++nEiRUzecqJvNJT+47AUJDNXDiNR6nnGTANUONTsImpskxundvNCOeZtuFA0MV7zaVhKsIMFD1fhqx1cjmMhVT6hS1LvtzVnX4IKg= Received: by 10.36.65.7 with SMTP id n7mr604322nza; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:42:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 7sm6615778nzn.2005.10.21.08.42.03; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:42:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43590C47.1050900@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:41:59 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "A. Pagaltzis" CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? References: <1D96FDC9-2B92-4AF1-A06A-47541AA3C746@sun.com> <20051021153331.GA32465@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20051021153331.GA32465@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id LAA14208 A. Pagaltzis wrote: >* Eric Scheid [2005-10-21 17:05]: > =20 > >>It was thought that the 'self' link in an archive would point >>to the archive document itself, which meant a different >>relationship was needed for the purpose of locating the URI >>which is the one that contains the most recent updates/entries. >> =20 >> > >I admit I intentionally kept out of that discussion because I >don=E2=80=99t have a lot of personal interest in the subject, and the >thread has been so fast and furious I didn=E2=80=99t bother staying on >top of it just because. > >But I=E2=80=99d like to offer some thoughts on this particular point; >apologies in advance if these points have already been raised: > >First, rel=3D"self" is going to be implemented by most everything >that groks Atom 1.0 in order to support one-click subscription, >if applicable, right? Whereas this new relationship might not >find such wide-spread support. > > =20 > Most aggregators supporting self-based subscription are going to use it=20 to allow the UA to subscribe to the *current* document. In other words,=20 if the user is looking at an Archive feed, the self-subscription=20 mechanism will lead the user to subscribe to the archive document. With=20 "subscribe", the UA is given a hint as to where the actual subscription=20 document is located. >Second, although less important =E2=80=93 even applications which do >support rel=3D"subscribe" will have to implement a fallback >behaviour. Arguably, they already do in some fashion, because a >feed may omit the rel=3D"self" link, so I don=E2=80=99t know if this is >such a pressing issue. > >For these two (similar) reasons I think it might be wise to keep >rel=3D"self" in the role that this new rel=3D"subscribe" thing is >supposed to fulfill, and invent a new relationship that can point >to the canonical location of the archive feed document. > > =20 > -1. self always points to *this* document and is only usable for=20 subscribing to *this* document. You cannot use it to point to a=20 separate document. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 11:48:18 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ESz7y-0003Uf-IY for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:48:18 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA14265 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:48:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LFhEdk024330; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:43:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LFhE8d024329; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:43:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.196]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LFhDPr024317 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:43:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i28so350039nzi for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:43:10 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=XQVlfJP/lqUB4s1xkiB12YIDs9C825kTsmQiaz5aKzyJb0NldHSt+JMLsbZM8v/5vJZ+CEMUCOPPb/u9qD1rkJ8yXJioveVSih/zfYqSezBg3ewznZSUyPyxlpzh38T4yqggl5e66Nh0bFekzTKtA7vkWMiSI8oDOpO8CuBzGA0= Received: by 10.36.60.19 with SMTP id i19mr2916176nza; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 5sm2358125nzk.2005.10.21.08.43.07; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43590C89.70505@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:43:05 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thomas Broyer CC: Mark Nottingham , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? References: <3895.194.250.147.107.1129907383.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> In-Reply-To: <3895.194.250.147.107.1129907383.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas Broyer wrote: >Mark Nottingham wrote: > > >> - Attribute Value: previous >> - Description: A URI that refers to the immediately preceding >>document in a series of documents. >> >> > >This definition doesn't prevent someone from using this link relation for >linking within a series of documents representing, say a "webring", where >"previous" and "next" will be other sites' feeds. >I really think we should make it clear that first/previous/next/last are >meant for "paging" of a single feed only. >I'll try to propose a replacement text. > > > -1. I see no reason to limit this to paging of a single feed. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 12:13:05 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ESzVw-0006z8-VN for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:13:05 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA15927 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:12:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LG7UTU027599; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:07:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LG7UIs027598; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:07:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LG7Twh027590 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:07:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Sat, 22 Oct 2005 02:09:30 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 02:07:20 +1000 Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20051021153331.GA32465@klangraum> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 22/10/05 1:33 AM, "A. Pagaltzis" wrote: > First, rel="self" is going to be implemented by most everything > that groks Atom 1.0 in order to support one-click subscription, > if applicable, right? Whereas this new relationship might not > find such wide-spread support. I believe we're in a moment of grace right now and we could, with a bit of public advocacy, get 'subscribe' established and supported for one-click subscription. > For these two (similar) reasons I think it might be wise to keep > rel="self" in the role that this new rel="subscribe" thing is > supposed to fulfill, and invent a new relationship that can point > to the canonical location of the archive feed document. This occurred to me too, but I had my reservations about it. http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg17284.html where I wrote: Fortunately, the link relation 'self' was defined in such a woolly way we could get away with re-purposing it. A few articles here or there, a bit of blog chatter, and the arrival of the fabled Developers Guide and we'd be set. I'd think this would be favourable to having to come up with a different pair of relations, like 'self' = what you subscribe to, may not look anything like the chunk in front of you 'this-chunk' = link to what you are looking at, not to be confused with 'self' e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 12:44:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ESzzw-00081C-T6 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:44:10 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA17920 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:43:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LGcZoL033123; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:38:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LGcZZP033122; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:38:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LGcY05033115 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:38:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id e11so106906qbe for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:38:34 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ejLeDc+MXwgGcHjO28GtyKcqiMoBFS3JxWReguuARp0go+ZGsxHgUMMMTGgiWLu4ARHI1ug1FeGcTbin8fQxPvLH1vdWgBPtJWTjnW5vk9BPYLJG7Bn7ilBOfmEtUjJ1Sjd+Ig/0EVtsThwxXO0YetnbNEv7ShIuL/HoaMrJRK8= Received: by 10.65.192.13 with SMTP id u13mr2128778qbp; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:38:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e11sm8791732qbc.2005.10.21.09.38.33; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:38:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43591986.3020706@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:38:30 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax CC: Scott Hollenbeck Subject: Re: draft-snell-atompub-feed-license-03.txt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All, Just wanted to clue y'all in on this conversation. The Atom extension drafts listed below entered an "Unofficial last call" state about three weeks ago. As of today I'm declaring these stable and will not be making any further changes on them unless a) significant bugs/problems are found or b) the Atom protocol works stretches out beyond the expiration date of the current drafts. Once the Atom protocol work is complete, I will submit these as standards track RFC's as per Scott's preference stated in the notes below. http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-license-03.txt http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-expires-05.txt (will publish soon on the IETF lists) http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-nofollow-03.txt (will publish soon on the IETF lists) Thanks to everyone who submitted feedback on these. - James >>-----Original Message----- >>From: James M Snell [mailto:jasnell@gmail.com] >>Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 12:21 PM >>To: Scott Hollenbeck >>Cc: Tim.Bray@Sun.COM; phoffman@imc.org >>Subject: Re: draft-snell-atompub-feed-license-03.txt >> >>This is fine. There really is no risk on this particular >>extension with >>the protocol draft but your suggestion sounds like good general >>practice. For now I'll settle for informally declaring that >>the specs >>are stable and waiting for the primary work on the protocol to >>complete. Thanks! :-) >> >>Scott Hollenbeck wrote: >> >> >> >>>Frankly I'd prefer to wait on documents like this until after atompub >>>completes both the format and protocol documents. I realize >>> >>> >>that there >> >> >>>isn't a normative dependency on the protocol document, but >>> >>> >>I'd really prefer >> >> >>>to be sure that it stays that way. You can try to convince >>> >>> >>me that there's >> >> >>>no risk if you wish. >>> >>>The normal process, though, is for you to try to convince an >>> >>> >>AD to shepherd >> >> >>>your work. You can also send it directly to the RFC Editor >>> >>> >>if you wish, but >> >> >>>they will then ask the IESG if there are any potential >>> >>> >>conflicts or overlaps >> >> >>>with existing IETF work. In short, it'll take longer. >>> >>>The AD then reviews the document, we deal with the review, >>> >>> >>and a 4-week last >> >> >>>call is requested. The doc goes through IESG evaluation >>> >>> >>after the last >> >> >>>call, just like a working group document does. >>> >>>-Scott- >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: James M Snell [mailto:jasnell@gmail.com] >>>>Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 11:57 AM >>>>To: Hollenbeck, Scott >>>>Cc: Tim.Bray@Sun.COM; phoffman@imc.org >>>>Subject: draft-snell-atompub-feed-license-03.txt >>>> >>>>Hello Scott, >>>> >>>>Over the past couple of months I have been developing a number of >>>>extensions to Atom. I believe that a couple of these are >>>>ready to move >>>>forward as standards-track RFC's as individual submissions. >>>>The first >>>>is draft-snell-atompub-feed-license-03.txt [1]. This spec >>>>defines a new >>>>license link relation than can be used to associate copyright >>>>licenses >>>>(e.g. creative commons) with Atom feeds and entries. >>>> >>>> >>Feedback on the >> >> >>>>spec has been received from members of the Atompub WG and >>>> >>>> >>from folks >> >> >>>>from Creative Commons and the larger XML developer community mostly >>> >>> >>>>through direct feedback to me. >>>> >>>>If everything looks acceptable to you, what is the next step >>>>on moving >>>>this forward as a standards track rfc? >>>> >>>>- James >>>> jasnell@gmail.com >>>> >>>>[1] >>>>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-l >>>>icense-03.txt >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 12:50:47 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET06P-0004ze-F8 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:50:47 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA18293 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:50:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LGj6FC033763; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:45:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LGj6BX033762; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:45:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.204]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LGj5mS033751 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:45:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id c8so553795qbc for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:45:00 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=agev6/mh0kxkickl7T+JjX3VaVTfkSJzcp2aNjg1IGX4FXz1atf2d5FAfW0WphLzaWRcLOpLEbM5DQ0mwqvMaruH+JWhGUmivy6QhvTyD1fFpA14y/ejMKHKi3XNbcVMkv1XP9w2ADOAU3vqQuccWQNnPOmYJS/2MPaDHkX+tMg= Received: by 10.65.84.7 with SMTP id m7mr2101532qbl; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id c5sm492492qbc.2005.10.21.09.44.59; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:44:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43591B07.5030804@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:44:55 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Unofficial Last Call - draft-snell-atompub-feed-index-03.txt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As of today I am issuing an unofficial last call on the Feed Rank extension http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-index-03.txt This extension introduces a numeric ranking mechanism for Atom entries that can be used to order entries according to relative significance. Please review the spec and provide comment back to the Atom syntax list. In two weeks I will review the feedback, make any appropriate changes, then work towards declaring the spec "stable". Once the Atom Protocol work is complete, I will submit the stable version of the draft as a standards track RFC. Thanks! - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 12:52:49 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET08O-0006KJ-Dl for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:52:48 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA18363 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:52:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LGnihE034348; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:49:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LGniL8034347; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:49:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf01.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.68]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LGnhfb034316 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:49:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.5.53.196]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 930BC599417; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 18:49:37 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <43591C20.6090808@cegetel.net> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 18:49:36 +0200 From: Thomas Broyer User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.4.1 (Windows/20051006) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James M Snell Cc: Mark Nottingham , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? References: <3895.194.250.147.107.1129907383.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> <43590C89.70505@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <43590C89.70505@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id MAA18363 James M Snell a =E9crit : > > Thomas Broyer wrote: > >> Mark Nottingham wrote: >> >> >>> - Attribute Value: previous >>> - Description: A URI that refers to the immediately preceding >>> document in a series of documents. >>> >> >> This definition doesn't prevent someone from using this link relation=20 >> for >> linking within a series of documents representing, say a "webring",=20 >> where >> "previous" and "next" will be other sites' feeds. >> I really think we should make it clear that first/previous/next/last a= re >> meant for "paging" of a single feed only. >> I'll try to propose a replacement text. >> >> >> > -1. I see no reason to limit this to paging of a single feed. How would you use these link relations for feed state reconstruction=20 (that is, automatic handling by the Atom processor, without user action=20 =96except probably the "please reconstruct this feed's state" action) if=20 you can't know what's pointed at? How would you navigate through a paged search result (e.g. OpenSearch=20 result feed) if previous/next might point at previous/next queries (e.g.=20 history of what people searched for before you) or previous/next pages=20 of the result feed? How would you disambiguate between two "next" link on pointing at the=20 next chunk of a paged feed and the other pointing at the next archived=20 feed? (e.g. "August Top 100, page 2" and "September Top 100") I thought we all agreed that we need a specific definition (related to=20 paging) of these relations and were previously voting about how to call=20 them (previous or prev-archive) --=20 Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 13:03:40 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET0It-0002Jo-P5 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:03:40 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA18828 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:03:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LGtnWH035713; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:55:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LGtnx6035711; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:55:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LGtmJu035698 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:55:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id e11so110527qbe for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:55:48 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=K/Hb27CIq3cuThgcW7SSYCB8ZWf/jjKfmrZq+1pikthEWV0vsXpS48aUSNrQHTV+XPMwXGFrqZPodb4kWHAvdlzulSZ3KpAoo3U3tx5j37S9WFHA/v+Ip7Uq7Sthx5RL+EpurRn+kW046kgJAa0UjTEV/zzuyicCOjc8wRMQnl8= Received: by 10.64.232.15 with SMTP id e15mr2000444qbh; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id o32sm3142552qbe.2005.10.21.09.55.47; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43591D90.9050508@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:55:44 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thomas Broyer CC: Mark Nottingham , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? References: <3895.194.250.147.107.1129907383.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> <43590C89.70505@gmail.com> <43591C20.6090808@cegetel.net> In-Reply-To: <43591C20.6090808@cegetel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id NAA18828 Thomas Broyer wrote: > How would you use these link relations for feed state reconstruction=20 > (that is, automatic handling by the Atom processor, without user=20 > action =96except probably the "please reconstruct this feed's state"=20 > action) if you can't know what's pointed at? > > How would you navigate through a paged search result (e.g. OpenSearch=20 > result feed) if previous/next might point at previous/next queries=20 > (e.g. history of what people searched for before you) or previous/next=20 > pages of the result feed? > > How would you disambiguate between two "next" link on pointing at the=20 > next chunk of a paged feed and the other pointing at the next archived=20 > feed? (e.g. "August Top 100, page 2" and "September Top 100") > > I thought we all agreed that we need a specific definition (related to=20 > paging) of these relations and were previously voting about how to=20 > call them (previous or prev-archive) > I wouldn't disambiguate them as I don't believe it's necessary to. =20 What's needed is a way of identifying the role|purpose|intent of a feed;=20 not a way of disambiguating the links between them. An "archive" feed=20 should be treated differently than a "search" feed which should be=20 treated differently than a "subscription" feed.=20 - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 13:12:23 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET0RK-0000MH-Tw for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:12:23 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA19467 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:12:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LH6nLr037697; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:06:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LH6nF1037696; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:06:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.195]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LH6mSl037690 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:06:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id e11so112844qbe for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:06:48 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=o9u0g5zwPydet4OY0rEX2WKxaoqluWXysgjXoCw5S3S18PoMBHdCUVqwSrC1sD8+eMIpecwjcDAgNREqOnQNpsBUs+PwNiEje0fQRqxr7w7B87UadsJJF1WwcUy0484NRo7oJCqGbkDJQwlBR9Pk4/VojcUorWRPjRO2Yhhe5yk= Received: by 10.65.73.12 with SMTP id a12mr2162202qbl; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:06:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id d12sm11100384qbc.2005.10.21.10.06.48; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:06:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43592025.6010900@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:06:45 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Unofficial Last Call - draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-04.txt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All, At some point over the next couple of days, a slightly modified version of the comments extension draft [1] will be published. The moment it publishes will kick off a two week Unofficial Last Call period for the spec. The spec has been stable of the past two months with no major issues raised. Please review the draft. After two weeks I will review any received feedback and, if appropriate, cut a new draft which will become the stable version. After the Atom Protocol work completes, I will submit the stable version of the draft as a standards track RFC. - James [1] draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-03.txt (current version) [2] draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-04.txt (new version waiting to publish... no significant changes) From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 13:49:34 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET11J-0005x0-Ot for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:49:34 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA21311 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:49:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LHif8k045504; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:44:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LHifWc045503; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:44:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf01.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.68]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LHid1M045460 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:44:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.5.53.196]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEBF7599387; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:44:33 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <43592901.7030407@cegetel.net> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:44:33 +0200 From: Thomas Broyer User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.4.1 (Windows/20051006) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James M Snell Cc: Mark Nottingham , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? References: <3895.194.250.147.107.1129907383.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> <43590C89.70505@gmail.com> <43591C20.6090808@cegetel.net> <43591D90.9050508@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <43591D90.9050508@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id NAA21311 James M Snell wrote : > > Thomas Broyer wrote: > >> How would you use these link relations for feed state reconstruction=20 >> (that is, automatic handling by the Atom processor, without user=20 >> action =96except probably the "please reconstruct this feed's state"=20 >> action) if you can't know what's pointed at? >> >> How would you navigate through a paged search result (e.g. OpenSearch=20 >> result feed) if previous/next might point at previous/next queries=20 >> (e.g. history of what people searched for before you) or=20 >> previous/next pages of the result feed? >> >> How would you disambiguate between two "next" link on pointing at the=20 >> next chunk of a paged feed and the other pointing at the next=20 >> archived feed? (e.g. "August Top 100, page 2" and "September Top 100") >> >> I thought we all agreed that we need a specific definition (related=20 >> to paging) of these relations and were previously voting about how to=20 >> call them (previous or prev-archive) >> > I wouldn't disambiguate them as I don't believe it's necessary to. =20 > What's needed is a way of identifying the role|purpose|intent of a=20 > feed; not a way of disambiguating the links between them. An=20 > "archive" feed should be treated differently than a "search" feed=20 > which should be treated differently than a "subscription" feed. > So you are OK with these feeds: GET /top50.atom HTTP/1.0 Host: music.example.net 200 OK Content-Type: application/atom+xml Content-Location: /top50/2005/w42/1.atom Week #42 Top 50 Top 50 best selling singles false =85 GET /top50/2005/w42/2.atom HTTP/1.0 Host: music.example.net 200 OK Content-Type: application/atom+xml Week #42 Top 50 (11th to 20st) Top 50 best selling singles false =85 GET /top50/2005/w41/1.atom HTTP/1.0 Host: music.example.net 200 OK Content-Type: application/atom+xml Week #41 Top 50 Top 50 best selling singles false =85 How do you expect a newsreader to *automatically* download this week's=20 50 entries without downloading last week's entries instead? (and show you links/buttons for you to ask download and display of=20 previous/next week's Top 50) --=20 Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 13:56:23 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET17v-0007rq-5v for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:56:23 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA21715 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:56:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LHoXto047136; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:50:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LHoX5x047135; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:50:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.198]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LHoWah047121 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:50:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id e11so122321qbe for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:50:32 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=VezCg1PadjP6XvYNU1pRXARuMZfYEG/swvYkr0Aew8j4HL/Yle1QVZv8zG7zGdsJ7lPqrLvhChp3QSCT4MCtYNf+bvnIjV8v5PhdOJk3Yg+v4+O7az2DtEW60iHvvGdgqcCcbXeD/LuWBd2UzAMXyvAnn0zQLH/JJEvWlFlEuaE= Received: by 10.64.210.13 with SMTP id i13mr2186920qbg; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:50:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e19sm5486083qba.2005.10.21.10.50.30; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:50:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43592A63.1010305@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:50:27 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thomas Broyer CC: Mark Nottingham , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? References: <3895.194.250.147.107.1129907383.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> <43590C89.70505@gmail.com> <43591C20.6090808@cegetel.net> <43591D90.9050508@gmail.com> <43592901.7030407@cegetel.net> In-Reply-To: <43592901.7030407@cegetel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas Broyer wrote: > So you are OK with these feeds: > Yes, they all look good to me. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 14:07:03 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET1IE-0007cS-Ue for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:07:03 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA22211 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:06:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LHwgf1049136; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:58:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LHwg1S049135; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:58:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf00.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.67]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LHwfqV049083 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:58:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.5.53.196]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C2691A4149; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:58:35 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <43592C4B.3080302@cegetel.net> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:58:35 +0200 From: Thomas Broyer User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.4.1 (Windows/20051006) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James M Snell Cc: Mark Nottingham , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? References: <3895.194.250.147.107.1129907383.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> <43590C89.70505@gmail.com> <43591C20.6090808@cegetel.net> <43591D90.9050508@gmail.com> <43592901.7030407@cegetel.net> <43592A63.1010305@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <43592A63.1010305@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James M Snell wrote : > > Thomas Broyer wrote: > >> So you are OK with these feeds: >> > Yes, they all look good to me. > You didn't answer my last question: >> How do you expect a newsreader to *automatically* download this >> week's 50 entries without downloading last week's entries instead? >> (and show you links/buttons for you to ask download and display of >> previous/next week's Top 50) -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 14:12:44 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET1Nj-0002E2-Pp for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:12:44 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA22510 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:12:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LI5pPk050914; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:05:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LI5pCC050913; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:05:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.193]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LI5oAi050907 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:05:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id e11so125867qbe for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:05:50 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=hKGMAqaNOsp++UV1AELa90+vztv03ZPT4TaO7Toi3WvEvXIPdMD1zvq4siPrKqcsmrQqiWl3IB7m0CkoTK4uqQYGNO2WK5fRiRZSrhhs7HXjAJUcY38Z9GD5WjloCe3Nd2d3Cl3qbsZxCjc0bWNNQ43Tpz0JMxJdUU71cekq3xI= Received: by 10.65.192.13 with SMTP id u13mr2200727qbp; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:05:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id f13sm9230428qba.2005.10.21.11.05.47; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43592DF8.4080706@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:05:44 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: iana@iana.org, Atom Syntax Subject: Application for addition to Atom Registry of Link Relations Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following is an application for a link relation value, as specified in the Atom Syndication Format. > Thank you - James Snell == Registry == http://www.iana.org/assignments/link-relations == Attribute Value == "license" == Description == http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-license-03.txt == Display Characteristics == http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-license-03.txt == Security Considerations == http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-license-03.txt From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 14:12:44 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET1Nk-0002E7-25 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:12:44 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA22514 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:12:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LI7xfx051064; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:07:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LI7xh0051063; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:07:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.199]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LI7wEg051056 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:07:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id e34so564574qbe for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:07:58 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=IN8mKuV/HTMGw5vnK2fl2tniTqic9QEbXZlJm8e4tz5b9tcQ09Z/wbodSUe8B1abeCBMroMOzYqVSn+fxpv4v2I/kDIflXGwweI8s/EpNBOm52UsTqfwDZRJazU2EZ84BscyZhd0AfGR4EszjagruiS7HI/1JrlS4i3+Ny+r6K4= Received: by 10.65.192.11 with SMTP id u11mr2196190qbp; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:07:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id q14sm5656691qbq.2005.10.21.11.07.57; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:07:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43592E7A.3030600@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:07:54 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thomas Broyer CC: Mark Nottingham , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? References: <3895.194.250.147.107.1129907383.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> <43590C89.70505@gmail.com> <43591C20.6090808@cegetel.net> <43591D90.9050508@gmail.com> <43592901.7030407@cegetel.net> <43592A63.1010305@gmail.com> <43592C4B.3080302@cegetel.net> In-Reply-To: <43592C4B.3080302@cegetel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas Broyer wrote: > James M Snell wrote : > >> >> Thomas Broyer wrote: >> >>> So you are OK with these feeds: >>> >> Yes, they all look good to me. >> > > You didn't answer my last question: > >>> How do you expect a newsreader to *automatically* download this >>> week's 50 entries without downloading last week's entries instead? >>> (and show you links/buttons for you to ask download and display of >>> previous/next week's Top 50) >> > > Ah, didn't see the last question ;-) My choice would be for it to not automatically download 'em. Just present the user with the available links and let 'em follow the ones they want. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 14:44:50 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET1so-0005mN-TG for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:44:50 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA25017 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:44:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LIcXu5057748; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:38:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LIcXSB057747; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:38:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav11.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.83]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LIcXLq057703 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:38:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:38:27 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV11.phx.gbl with DAV; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 18:38:27 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: <3895.194.250.147.107.1129907383.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> <43590C89.70505@gmail.com> <43591C20.6090808@cegetel.net> <43591D90.9050508@gmail.com> <43592901.7030407@cegetel.net> <43592A63.1010305@gmail.com> <43592C4B.3080302@cegetel.net> Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:38:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Oct 2005 18:38:27.0513 (UTC) FILETIME=[A05D1A90:01C5D66E] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas Broyer wrote: > You didn't answer my last question: >>> How do you expect a newsreader to *automatically* download this week's >>> 50 entries without downloading last week's entries instead? >>> (and show you links/buttons for you to ask download and display of >>> previous/next week's Top 50) I see where you're coming from, but this kind of thing is already a problem without even taking links into consideration. For an aggregator to be able to do anything vaguely meaningful with a feed it has to be able to assume that the feed is incremental in nature. When the feed is updated an aggregator will by default assume that any new items can safely be added to the top of an inbox, any updates are updates to existing items, and any removed items have merely "fallen off the bottom" of the feed. However, as soon as we introduce the concept of non-incremental feeds, an aggregator that is not aware of the concept will fail to process such a feed in a meaningful way. We've created a situation where an aggregator has to be aware of the (still to be specified) fh:incremental extension, Microsoft's simple list extensions for RSS, and whatever future extensions may arise; basically the ability to see into the future. This problem merely repeats itself when it comes to processing archives. When we receive a "next" link, ideally we would like to assume it's a pointer to the next archive to be processed. For a regular incremental feed this isn't a problem. Even a search feed could be processed safely if ordered the right way. However, when it comes to non-incremental feeds we're screwed again. I agree that it sucks, but we're already stuck with that situation so I'm not sure that these links will make things any worse. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 14:45:59 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET1tv-0006zx-Ig for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:45:59 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA25082 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:45:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LIb1NP057407; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:37:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LIb1AB057405; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:37:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc14.comcast.net [204.127.198.54]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LIb1Rq057385 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:37:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc14) with SMTP id <20051021183650014006ah59e>; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 18:36:55 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: <43592DF8.4080706@gmail.com> References: <43592DF8.4080706@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Application for addition to Atom Registry of Link Relations Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:36:48 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following two bits seem incompatible with each other: > o atom:entry, atom:feed and atom:source elements MUST NOT contain > more than one 'license' link relation with the same > combination of > type and hreflang attribute values. > Multiple license link relations MAY be used to indicate that the > informational content has been published under multiple copright > licenses. In such instances, each of the linked licenses is > considered to be mutually exclusive of the others. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 14:47:18 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET1vC-00006z-Cg for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:47:18 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA25164 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:47:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LIhxji059138; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:43:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LIhx1R059137; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:43:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.197]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LIhw82059130 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:43:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id c8so580896qbc for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:43:58 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=imECKA0I3jZY7DGk1ECntbdGS/StgvRwONbx1Go/i3K/PfzVKZBzdcJuuAFzH7UCkL0LZCOVn7F3ZcxOWFYQXqZTYNEL/UbNdVUFCxNOYFa4VeDQq6zm4yFrMPo8BbE3uNUd0IKdgYEF6YkM8DjS7fhRLi/M8Mf/Pj39yy6tEQk= Received: by 10.65.147.11 with SMTP id z11mr2154781qbn; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:43:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e18sm1939069qba.2005.10.21.11.43.57; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:43:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <435936EA.3060102@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:43:54 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Sponsored Links and other link extensions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok, now that a number of the other extensions I've been working on are moving along, it's time to turn my attention to a couple of other ideas I've been stewing on. One of which is link[rel="sponsored"] to indicate sponsored links / advertisements within feeds. The reason for not using rel="related" here is to provide consumers a clear distinction between links that are truly related to the entry vs. links included as advertisements. A feed, entry or source may contain any number of rel="sponsored" links. Further, many links can be augmented with graphics and extended descriptions, for this purpose, I am considering a couple of new extension elements that would be children of atom:link ... Some basic documentation about the link The x:image element would specify the URI of an image file (aspect ratio of 2:1) associated with the link. The type attribute specifies the media type of the image. The x:documentation element is an Atom text construct similar to atom:summary. I would have just reused atom:summary but given that the core spec does not expressly allow for atom:summary within atom:link, I felt doing so would be problematic. The purpose of x:documentation is to allow an extended, human-readable description of the link to be provided. In another direction, I've thinking about how to allow links to express specific information about the resource being linked so that either a) modifications of the resource can be detected or b) specific versions of the resource can be referenced. The values of each attribute corresponds to an equivalent HTTP header. Lastly, a while back Eric Scheid and I discussed a bit about how alternate locations for a link could be expressed (e.g. mirrors). He was going to write up a draft, but I'm not sure about the status of that effort. Here's what I'm thinking: Each x:alternate identifies an alternative URL for the link resource. The media type, length, hreflang, etc are all expected to be the same for each alternate. The x:md5.x:etag, and x:last-modified attributes from above could be used. Thoughts? Gripes? Praise? - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 14:53:21 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET213-0002kL-IF for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:53:21 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA25451 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:53:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LImp2a060076; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:48:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LImpna060075; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:48:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.201]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LImoXk060059 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:48:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id c8so581848qbc for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:48:50 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=jKnl+xbYMGorxa/quBx8WmZY7Wrbp8PQ3dK5o9hTVAVaDjvIvBW7sLCvOi2f6fSMcIP1stkPUcKXoIOriwhPEL/GD37EIGbeXBBxeAvMleP3lyUad4WUb4sVnehgthWaySulV8K1PUSVSk+rIRP5cPfRbPRcM+cVrqM5bLc/icU= Received: by 10.64.148.4 with SMTP id v4mr2193505qbd; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:48:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e18sm4743857qbe.2005.10.21.11.48.49; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:48:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4359380E.8060005@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:48:46 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Antone Roundy CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Application for addition to Atom Registry of Link Relations References: <43592DF8.4080706@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Antone Roundy wrote: > > The following two bits seem incompatible with each other: > >> o atom:entry, atom:feed and atom:source elements MUST NOT contain >> more than one 'license' link relation with the same >> combination of >> type and hreflang attribute values. > > Note the caveat, "with the same combination of type and hreflang attribute values". The idea is to prevent a single license from being appearing more than once. >> Multiple license link relations MAY be used to indicate that the >> informational content has been published under multiple copright >> licenses. In such instances, each of the linked licenses is >> considered to be mutually exclusive of the others. > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 15:14:31 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET2LX-0005es-9v for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:14:31 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA27316 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:14:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LJ82wP063489; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:08:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LJ82fI063488; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:08:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.204]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LJ81DZ063481 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:08:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id e34so577127qbe for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:08:01 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=RZrBw400hCqMdePNyuayfnKqlxBtA7vh0SguV10JWXWmYj5Hna2wIKQUqQw63NH+FGH8hSrcJvkgs/KW0cvtw31lV5dMY1zfQrnAx6c5t2EZcds55sybJSgNY8ObycPz8pYO7P+LmpFWU3NRsWLO9s76Xh/9oVlyu60e69hpuoY= Received: by 10.65.189.6 with SMTP id r6mr2226921qbp; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e13sm1175338qba.2005.10.21.12.08.00; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:08:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43593C8C.6060603@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:07:56 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Profile links Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another subject that has come up in recent discussions is an extension that can be used to specify the purpose of a feed. For example, is the feed an archive, is it a podcast, is it used for discovering web services or publishing blog content, etc. The approach that I have in mind is to use link[rel="profile"] where the href points to a profile document of some sort. For example, ... ... The profile documents could be anything really, but generally describe the kinds of metadata and content that the entry is expected to contain. For instance, the podcast profile could indicate that the entry should contain at least one link[rel="enclosure"]. Any single entry may contain multiple profile links. It is up to the feed consumer to make sense of it all. If an entry specifies contradictory profiles, it's up to the consumer to sort it out. The profile documents should be dereferenceable. Thoughts? Gripes? Praise? - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 15:24:27 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET2V9-00056E-OJ for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:24:27 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA28142 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:24:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LJFfgG064262; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:15:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LJFflY064261; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:15:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.198]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LJFfNt064255 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:15:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id c8so587559qbc for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:15:40 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=aFxcsQEhCU+lXMNLR6reOItXeAdslWpqlYqCoAK/zn/uMQRvQoT7DhGC3OUavygTb/3CTgpTCpGfSYZaF+GFSp8icERBByZ8raF6wPydItuiXfvNTwVUxg/1Gx243eZu3GyldNaf+DwmtJyhIeu59d1C7eCHXwautnDQiCD13go= Received: by 10.65.147.11 with SMTP id z11mr2179769qbn; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id c5sm599658qbc.2005.10.21.12.15.33; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:15:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43593E52.6020703@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:15:30 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: What is this entry about? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok, so thus far: we can indicate resources that are related to the given entry; we can indicate that an entry is a reply to another entry; we can specify categories to which the entry belongs; but there is currently no way of indicating the *subject* of the entry. The best options appear to be: a. Use dc:subject (appears to be a perfectly acceptable solution to me assuming that the subject indication is intended for human consumption The Atom Specification or... b. Use link[rel="subject"] (which works if the subject is identified/described by a dereferenceable URI) I think either approach works. The dc:subject approach is ambiguous. The link approach requires invention. Thoughts? - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 15:51:17 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET2v7-0004JL-1K for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:51:17 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA00273 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:51:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LJjhAA071974; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:45:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LJjhDR071973; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:45:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc14.comcast.net (sccrmhc14.comcast.net [204.127.202.59]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LJjgdu071956 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:45:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc14) with SMTP id <2005102119453101400sj5m4e>; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:45:36 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: <4359380E.8060005@gmail.com> References: <43592DF8.4080706@gmail.com> <4359380E.8060005@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Application for addition to Atom Registry of Link Relations Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:45:29 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Oct 21, 2005, at 12:48 PM, James M Snell wrote: > Antone Roundy wrote: >> The following two bits seem incompatible with each other: >>> o atom:entry, atom:feed and atom:source elements MUST NOT >>> contain >>> more than one 'license' link relation with the same >>> combination of >>> type and hreflang attribute values. >> > Note the caveat, "with the same combination of type and hreflang > attribute values". The idea is to prevent a single license from > being appearing more than once. > >>> Multiple license link relations MAY be used to indicate that the >>> informational content has been published under multiple copright >>> licenses. In such instances, each of the linked licenses is >>> considered to be mutually exclusive of the others. So if something is going to link to both the Creative Commons License and the GPL, only one of the two can be an English text/html document? Maybe it would make more sense to say "... MUST NOT contain more than one 'license' link with the same href attribute." Isn't that the whole point? From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 15:56:39 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET30J-0007R2-5n for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:56:39 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA02075 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:56:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LJq9ac073254; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:52:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LJq9R4073253; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:52:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.201]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LJq8rN073238 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:52:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id c8so594631qbc for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:52:08 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=BlS+oqvFjFx1Ke+fb9wL9w80iHIVjTkyv+0p+ZBraCKYW0eNRn0QCCbAbeTGniulDlFKrDA2gc7f7vVW69YjddNuuHkAgxSMWgguXZIffPHHEpuvjiRgYqrSecS9B+08SFSRZCTjwd/c1LpMGbVvn1jj7oEB1wwPIOKozATcrso= Received: by 10.65.84.7 with SMTP id m7mr2252092qbl; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:52:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e16sm1299593qbe.2005.10.21.12.52.07; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:52:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <435946E1.8090300@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:52:01 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Antone Roundy CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Application for addition to Atom Registry of Link Relations References: <43592DF8.4080706@gmail.com> <4359380E.8060005@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Antone Roundy wrote: > > So if something is going to link to both the Creative Commons License > and the GPL, only one of the two can be an English text/html > document? Maybe it would make more sense to say "... MUST NOT > contain more than one 'license' link with the same href attribute." > Isn't that the whole point? > > Ah, gotcha, it should be "with the same combination of href, type and hreflang attribute values" - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 16:52:18 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET3sA-0007QN-1U for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:52:18 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA01328 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:52:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LKjZ8Z085158; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:45:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LKjZhm085157; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:45:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf01.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.68]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LKjYca085134 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:45:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.5.60.155]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63CAF6A0073; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:45:28 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <43595373.80706@cegetel.net> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:45:39 +0200 From: Thomas Broyer User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.4.1 (Windows/20051006) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James M Snell Cc: Mark Nottingham , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? References: <3895.194.250.147.107.1129907383.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> <43590C89.70505@gmail.com> <43591C20.6090808@cegetel.net> <43591D90.9050508@gmail.com> <43592901.7030407@cegetel.net> <43592A63.1010305@gmail.com> <43592C4B.3080302@cegetel.net> <43592E7A.3030600@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <43592E7A.3030600@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id QAA01328 James M Snell wrote: > Thomas Broyer wrote: >> You didn't answer my last question: >> >>>> How do you expect a newsreader to *automatically* download this=20 >>>> week's 50 entries without downloading last week's entries instead? >>>> (and show you links/buttons for you to ask download and display of=20 >>>> previous/next week's Top 50)=20 > Ah, didn't see the last question ;-) > > My choice would be for it to not automatically download 'em. Just=20 > present the user with the available links and let 'em follow the ones=20 > they want. So you're indirectly telling Mark to either: - continue using an fh:prev extension element - define a more specific link relation (previous-page?) - stop dreaming of an automatic process for feed state reconstruction=85 I'd rather say: define first/previous/next/last for "paging" only and=20 use them for feed-state reconstruction. If someone wants some other=20 "ordered" relationships, he'll define a new link relation (e.g.=20 webring-previous). Moreover, this is consistent with the OpenSearch start/previous/next/end=20 link relations (where start=3Dfirst and end=3Dlast). --=20 Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 17:05:27 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET44o-00019W-I6 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:05:27 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA08812 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:05:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LKxtGM088746; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:59:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LKxtB0088744; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:59:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chilco.textdrive.com (chilco.textdrive.com [207.7.108.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LKxtvC088703 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:59:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: from [192.168.2.180] (83-70-29-35.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net [83.70.29.35]) by chilco.textdrive.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B6FDDA8D6; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 21:00:16 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <435956BF.7030600@dehora.net> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 21:59:43 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James M Snell CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: What is this entry about? References: <43593E52.6020703@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <43593E52.6020703@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James M Snell wrote: > > Ok, so thus far: we can indicate resources that are related to the given > entry; we can indicate that an entry is a reply to another entry; we can > specify categories to which the entry belongs; but there is currently no > way of indicating the *subject* of the entry. > The best options appear to be: > > a. Use dc:subject (appears to be a perfectly acceptable solution to me > assuming that the subject indication is intended for human consumption > > > The Atom Specification > > > or... > > b. Use link[rel="subject"] (which works if the subject is > identified/described by a dereferenceable URI) > > > href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-format-11.txt" > /> > > > I think either approach works. The dc:subject approach is ambiguous. > The link approach requires invention. The link approach doesn't seem to be less ambiguous than dc:subject. For lessened ambiguity you might want to use published subject indicators a la topic maps. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 17:28:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET4R1-0005BX-Hp for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:28:19 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA18927 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:28:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LLMvS3093480; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:22:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LLMvNO093478; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:22:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf00.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.67]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LLMtMJ093439 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:22:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.5.60.155]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FCBB1A4080; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:22:50 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <43595C39.2080106@cegetel.net> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:23:05 +0200 From: Thomas Broyer User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.4.1 (Windows/20051006) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Holderness Cc: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? References: <3895.194.250.147.107.1129907383.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> <43590C89.70505@gmail.com> <43591C20.6090808@cegetel.net> <43591D90.9050508@gmail.com> <43592901.7030407@cegetel.net> <43592A63.1010305@gmail.com> <43592C4B.3080302@cegetel.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Holderness wrote: > > Thomas Broyer wrote: >> You didn't answer my last question: >>>> How do you expect a newsreader to *automatically* download this >>>> week's 50 entries without downloading last week's entries instead? >>>> (and show you links/buttons for you to ask download and display of >>>> previous/next week's Top 50) > > I see where you're coming from, but this kind of thing is already a > problem without even taking links into consideration. > > For an aggregator to be able to do anything vaguely meaningful with a > feed it has to be able to assume that the feed is incremental in nature. As I already explained, paging is orthogonal to the incremental nature of a feed. An incremental feed will be chunked as explained in Mark's current Feed History draft (just use an atom:link[@rel="previous"] instead of the fh:prev extension element) and a non-incremental feed as described in the OpenSearch result 1.1 draft. The difference is that an incremental feed is sorted by date so the older parts will become more or less "stable" over time; while a non-incremental feed is replaced as a whole each time it is updated, with no other relation to time. > When the feed is updated an aggregator will by default assume that any > new items can safely be added to the top of an inbox, any updates are > updates to existing items, and any removed items have merely "fallen > off the bottom" of the feed. > > However, as soon as we introduce the concept of non-incremental feeds, > an aggregator that is not aware of the concept will fail to process > such a feed in a meaningful way. We've created a situation where an > aggregator has to be aware of the (still to be specified) > fh:incremental extension, Microsoft's simple list extensions for RSS, > and whatever future extensions may arise; basically the ability to see > into the future. > > This problem merely repeats itself when it comes to processing > archives. When we receive a "next" link, ideally we would like to > assume it's a pointer to the next archive to be processed. For a > regular incremental feed this isn't a problem. Even a search feed > could be processed safely if ordered the right way. However, when it > comes to non-incremental feeds we're screwed again. I agree that it > sucks, but we're already stuck with that situation so I'm not sure > that these links will make things any worse. What's the difference between a search feed and a non-incremental feed? Aren't search feeds one facet of non-incremental feeds? The difference between incremental and non-incremental feeds is that, when dealing with incremental feeds, paging can be seen as a link to archives, as the feed is tightly related to time. When dealing with non-incremental feed, the "previous page" is totally different than the "previous archived snapshot". However, an incremental feed could take advantage of differentiating between paging and "archive linking": if linking to archives uses an atom:link[@rel="archives"] (or call it "history" if you prefer) to point at an incremental feed where each entry describes an archived set of entries (see [1] for a more detailed example); such a feed has the advantage of paging that it allows direct access to a specific point of time inside the feed "pages". Each "archived set of entries" could for example cover one or two week, so a user could navigate through the "feed state" or "feed history" not only by going from pages to pages but also by accessing archived chunks via an "index" or "table of contents". -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 17:31:58 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET4UY-0000XC-IS for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:31:58 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA19043 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:31:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LLQPS3094308; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:26:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LLQPEI094307; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:26:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf01.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.68]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LLQNLP094256 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:26:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [84.5.60.155]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CA606A00D3; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:26:18 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <43595D0A.7000400@cegetel.net> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:26:34 +0200 From: Thomas Broyer User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.4.1 (Windows/20051006) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thomas Broyer Cc: James Holderness , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? References: <3895.194.250.147.107.1129907383.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> <43590C89.70505@gmail.com> <43591C20.6090808@cegetel.net> <43591D90.9050508@gmail.com> <43592901.7030407@cegetel.net> <43592A63.1010305@gmail.com> <43592C4B.3080302@cegetel.net> <43595C39.2080106@cegetel.net> In-Reply-To: <43595C39.2080106@cegetel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas Broyer wrote: > However, an incremental feed could take advantage of differentiating > between paging and "archive linking": if linking to archives uses an > atom:link[@rel="archives"] (or call it "history" if you prefer) to > point at an incremental feed where each entry describes an archived > set of entries (see [1] for a more detailed example); such a feed has > the advantage of paging that it allows direct access to a specific > point of time inside the feed "pages". Each "archived set of entries" > could for example cover one or two week, so a user could navigate > through the "feed state" or "feed history" not only by going from > pages to pages but also by accessing archived chunks via an "index" or > "table of contents". > Sorry, forgot the link: [1] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg17308.html -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 17:38:16 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET4ac-000895-Fu for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:38:16 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA19454 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:38:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LLYBKm095913; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:34:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LLYB7M095912; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:34:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.192]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LLYBG4095874 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:34:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i32so305491wra for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:34:06 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Gxd8hrNh5l5CMW3NG8rbxS6n+cNmoLHWQlL9lvaZ05kjB17nbp8G6v+RnjRJXoNaPUTCedH8CzOynWtJzCRs+Oh1GEtlysq20XM48pd20TMpbCxdkvQkb94wZsHmswihyjqDZ7toEgqW1jN/UNVAFGci8I09Ellwi4YYlDdZl3Q= Received: by 10.54.120.6 with SMTP id s6mr1772594wrc; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 40sm564025wrl.2005.10.21.14.34.04; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:34:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43595EC9.8000803@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:34:01 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: What is this entry about? References: <43593E52.6020703@gmail.com> <435956BF.7030600@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: <435956BF.7030600@dehora.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id RAA19454 Bill de h=D3ra wrote: >The link approach doesn't seem to be less ambiguous than dc:subject. For >lessened ambiguity you might want to use published subject indicators a >la topic maps. > > =20 > It is "less ambiguous" in that a URI is less ambiguous that some=20 arbitrary text string. Further, the link approach is perfectly=20 compatible with the "published subject indicators a la topic maps"=20 approach.=20 - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 17:56:03 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET4rr-0005ZD-DA for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:56:03 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA20587 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:55:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LLnTMi000152; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:49:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LLnTrO000150; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:49:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chilco.textdrive.com (chilco.textdrive.com [207.7.108.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LLnT1b000115 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:49:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: from [192.168.2.180] (83-70-29-35.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net [83.70.29.35]) by chilco.textdrive.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2933EDA8CB for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 21:49:50 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4359625D.9050409@dehora.net> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:49:17 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: What is this entry about? References: <43593E52.6020703@gmail.com> <435956BF.7030600@dehora.net> <43595EC9.8000803@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <43595EC9.8000803@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id RAA20587 James M Snell wrote: > Bill de h=D3ra wrote: >=20 >> The link approach doesn't seem to be less ambiguous than dc:subject. F= or >> lessened ambiguity you might want to use published subject indicators = a >> la topic maps. >> >> =20 >> > It is "less ambiguous" in that a URI is less ambiguous that some > arbitrary text string. Further, the link approach is perfectly > compatible with the "published subject indicators a la topic maps" > approach. There's no requirement to use an "arbitrary text string" in dc:subject*. And even then, I have no idea how a URL (you did say these things had to be dereferenced) is less ambiguous than a string - they're equally arbitrary unless we're talking about their use in something like OWL. The link approach still doesn't seem to be less ambiguous than dc:subject, ie it does not seem to be a basis for choosing one over the other. cheers Bill * The dc:subject value is recommended to be taken from some controlled set. The @rel=3Dsubject idea doesn't say anything about the link being a PSI. The "link approach" is "perfectly compatable" then with PSIs insofar as you would have some other interpretation that lookups the URIs and sees if they're actually PSIs, or not. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 18:19:33 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET5Eb-0000fa-Lg for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 18:19:33 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA21853 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 18:19:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LMESGu003496; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:14:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LMESNf003494; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:14:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LMEQRj003472 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:14:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 166833D398; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 18:13:27 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1D96FDC9-2B92-4AF1-A06A-47541AA3C746@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: James Holderness , Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:13:25 -0700 To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That's what I was trying to do here: > - Description: A URI that refers to a feed document containing a > set of the most recent entries in the feed. This URI is intended to > be subscribed to to keep abreast of recent changes in the feed. > When different from the URI of the document where it occurs, it > indicates that its value should be used for this purpose in place > of the current document's URI. Any suggestions? On 21/10/2005, at 8:19 AM, Tim Bray wrote: > On Oct 21, 2005, at 7:38 AM, James Holderness wrote: > > >> The idea being that if you were to come across an archived Atom >> document (however that might happen), the presence of this link >> would, (a) let you know that it was an archive document and thus >> shouldn't be subscribed to, and (b) provide you with a URL with >> which you could subscribe to the actual feed if you so chose. >> > > Makes sense, but not self-evident. I would think that the > usefulness of this thing would be improved by a few words of > explanation for those who come upon it without knowing the history. > -Tim -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 18:42:05 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET5aO-00010m-HT for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 18:42:05 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA22828 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 18:41:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LMYaWQ008195; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:34:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LMYa0h008194; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:34:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chilco.textdrive.com (chilco.textdrive.com [207.7.108.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LMYZYE008162 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:34:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: from [192.168.2.180] (83-70-29-35.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net [83.70.29.35]) by chilco.textdrive.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0F94DA8B3 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:34:55 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <43596CED.2070801@dehora.net> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:34:21 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Profile links References: <43593C8C.6060603@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <43593C8C.6060603@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James M Snell wrote: > > Another subject that has come up in recent discussions is an extension > that can be used to specify the purpose of a feed. For example, is the > feed an archive, is it a podcast, is it used for discovering web > services or publishing blog content, etc. > > The approach that I have in mind is to use link[rel="profile"] where the > href points to a profile document of some sort. > > For example, > > > ... > > > > ... > > > > The profile documents could be anything really, but generally describe > the kinds of metadata and content that the entry is expected to > contain. For instance, the podcast profile could indicate that the > entry should contain at least one link[rel="enclosure"]. > Any single entry may contain multiple profile links. It is up to the > feed consumer to make sense of it all. If an entry specifies > contradictory profiles, it's up to the consumer to sort it out. > The profile documents should be dereferenceable. > > Thoughts? Gripes? Praise? I think you're proposing to enable a kind of Atom microformat - "if you see profile ?x check for ?a ?b and ?c". Sorting it out on consumer sounds flaky ('sounds', not 'is'), but this also might be very cool. I wonder why you need a link to do this instead of foo:profile tag. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 19:17:41 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET68r-0006AQ-0a for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:17:41 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA01647 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:17:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LNBQxg016824; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:11:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LNBQRK016821; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:11:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.193]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LNBOYc016805 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:11:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i28so399965nzi for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:11:24 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=pD1kSTNz4mW2rMTZAYbdapHnP032TPczhyAw3RbVVTz755RuPelOyu7PObDjMFrMWlOsfOzm3SfDwztJ8zpVXKb4yKAmeN72Wn9hm6YrWdY/l8AoY5p92N1IvdToW0eHatTZM1wVwRwcZ8SSySSnRi8I/629hg+GZ+A5j2yfPCc= Received: by 10.36.250.79 with SMTP id x79mr3327638nzh; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 24sm535394nzn.2005.10.21.16.11.21; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43597596.3000900@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:11:18 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham CC: Thomas Broyer , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? References: <3895.194.250.147.107.1129907383.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> <43590C89.70505@gmail.com> <43591C20.6090808@cegetel.net> <43591D90.9050508@gmail.com> <43592901.7030407@cegetel.net> <43592A63.1010305@gmail.com> <43592C4B.3080302@cegetel.net> <43595C39.2080106@cegetel.net> <66D098C9-6DE8-472D-928A-3A0B5065D052@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <66D098C9-6DE8-472D-928A-3A0B5065D052@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Nottingham wrote: > > So, an aggregator comes across a feed in the woods. It sees it has > "previous" and maybe "next" link relations. > > The point that (I think) Thomas is making is that the people who > leave that feed document in the woods had better be comfortable with > the aggregator following the links and reconstructing the feed. After > all, most of them already keep feed history without any hints about > previous archives at all; if you give them a "previous" link, it'll > be a red flag to a bull, no matter what my spec says. > > So, a feed that used "next" and "previous" to link to different weeks > of the top 100 (for example) would get jumbled up pretty bad, and not > display too well in aggregators. > > My thinking is that if we go down this road, one of two things will > happen; > > a) Aggregators will start paying attention to special flags (like > fh:incremental) that tell them the nature of the feed, and feeds will > start using them real quick. > > b) Non-incremental uses of "previous" and "next" will die off, > because people who use them for those purposes will see aggregators > do strange things with their feeds. > > I think (b) is somewhat more likely. Either way, I'm OK, but I do > note that (a) leads to two separate extensions being required in the > feed, when the same purpose could be served by a more specialised > link relation, and (b) will lead to other, more specialised link > relations being created anyway. > > So I'm not sure why it's so important we have an effectively semantic- > free "previous" and "next", but if that's what happens, I'm > reasonably confident my use case will still be met. > I'm perfectly happy with leaving previous and next free of any semantics right now and letting the market sort things out. If more specific link relations prove to be necessary, then so be it, define the more specific link relations. If the market can get by with generic links + some kind of extra flag (e.g. incremental=true, etc) then great. if your case (b) dies off... that's great too. The point is, let's not over specify this thing right now; leave it open enough for the market to figure out how to use it. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 19:18:53 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET6A1-0000R7-KW for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:18:53 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA02368 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:18:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LNDiFh017288; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:13:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LNDiob017286; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:13:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LNDgLh017270 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:13:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:15:42 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:08:07 +1000 Subject: Re: Application for addition to Atom Registry of Link Relations From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4359380E.8060005@gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 22/10/05 4:48 AM, "James M Snell" wrote: > Note the caveat, "with the same combination of type and hreflang > attribute values". The idea is to prevent a single license from being > appearing more than once. > >>> Multiple license link relations MAY be used to indicate that the >>> informational content has been published under multiple copright >>> licenses. In such instances, each of the linked licenses is >>> considered to be mutually exclusive of the others. but the second bit of text suggests that the following is allowable: which is a situation which should be allowable (IMHO), and so the restriction should be removed: >>> o atom:entry, atom:feed and atom:source elements MUST NOT contain >>> more than one 'license' link relation with the same >>> combination of type and hreflang attribute values. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 19:20:18 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET6BN-0003Vw-U2 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:20:18 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA03331 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:20:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LNG7VK017697; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:16:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LNG7lW017696; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:16:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LNG6WG017690 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:16:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from fe-amer-10.sun.com ([192.18.108.184]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LNG63F020203 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:16:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.11 (built Jan 28 2005)) id <0IOQ00901GI8I900@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:16:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.19] ([216.113.201.135]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.11 (built Jan 28 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0IOQ006G3GMTVKKB@mail-amer.sun.com>; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:16:05 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:16:44 -0700 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? In-reply-to: To: Mark Nottingham Cc: James Holderness , Atom Syntax Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 References: <1D96FDC9-2B92-4AF1-A06A-47541AA3C746@sun.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Oct 21, 2005, at 3:13 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> - Description: A URI that refers to a feed document containing a >> set of the most recent entries in the feed. This URI is intended >> to be subscribed to to keep abreast of recent changes in the feed. >> When different from the URI of the document where it occurs, it >> indicates that its value should be used for this purpose in place >> of the current document's URI. > > Any suggestions? Yes. Acknowledge the specific case of an archival feed, an example is worth a thousand words. And discuss why this exist when Atom already has ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:21:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LNFlXH017636; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:15:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LNFkrC017631; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:15:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LNFkFs017624 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:15:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id v1so462165nzb for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:15:46 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=f5+NA6rlM0ODYcy2XyFH4rr/lxEVqVpvA62smEvu+deSUGAZcqrv6yVqP3fTIgc9hf3En4WqFk1ko1tX1Nt9OMR5rk0jRZcRr/BrmaY5IHeveQSpJ3gpxt68+yog2TYEfFTdaLNvWrul+N9AWO4eZESe57HonjWhPELjlVXj4JM= Received: by 10.36.50.19 with SMTP id x19mr3753138nzx; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 7sm2078052nzo.2005.10.21.16.15.44; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4359769E.8030802@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:15:42 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Profile links References: <43593C8C.6060603@gmail.com> <43596CED.2070801@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: <43596CED.2070801@dehora.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id TAA03571 Bill de h=D3ra wrote: >I think you're proposing to enable a kind of Atom microformat - "if you >see profile ?x check for ?a ?b and ?c". Sorting it out on consumer >sounds flaky ('sounds', not 'is'), but this also might be very cool. I >wonder why you need a link to do this instead of foo:profile tag. > > =20 > Precisely. Yes, sorting everything out on the client does *sound*=20 flaky, but we're not introducing any new problem here. XHTML=20 microformats have the same problem.=20 Regarding the use of a link versus foo:profile, I really have no=20 preference one way or the other. The profile reference should be a=20 dereferencable link to a profile document that describes the profile=20 but, for the most part, clients will likely only rarely ever dereference=20 it (using the href more as an identifier). Strictly speaking,=20 dereferenceable profile links should probably use the atom:link element=20 but there is no hard requirement that says a profile element wouldn't=20 also work. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 19:26:05 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET6Gz-0004VU-SJ for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:26:05 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA03881 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:25:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LNIpWZ018439; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:18:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LNIpep018438; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:18:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9LNIoDC018396 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:18:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 21 Oct 2005 23:18:43 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-251-209.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.251.209] by mail.gmx.net (mp033) with SMTP; 22 Oct 2005 01:18:43 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 01:18:50 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: What is this entry about? Message-ID: <20051021231850.GA686@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <43593E52.6020703@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <43593E52.6020703@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id TAA03881 * James M Snell [2005-10-21 21:25]: > Ok, so thus far: we can indicate resources that are related to > the given entry; we can indicate that an entry is a reply to > another entry; we can specify categories to which the entry > belongs; but there is currently no way of indicating the > *subject* of the entry.=20 >=20 > The best options appear to be: >=20 > a. Use dc:subject (appears to be a perfectly acceptable > solution to me assuming that the subject indication is intended > for human consumption >=20 > or... >=20 > b. Use link[rel=3D"subject"] (which works if the subject is=20 > identified/described by a dereferenceable URI) Err, are you forgetting atom:category? Doesn=E2=80=99t that satisfy all your wants *and* more? It has a URI, a term and a human-readable label. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 19:46:57 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET6bB-0004v8-NH for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:46:57 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA05269 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:46:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LMcCch008882; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:38:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LMcC0k008881; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:38:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LMcBEE008875 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:38:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 999763D381; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 18:38:10 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <43595C39.2080106@cegetel.net> References: <3895.194.250.147.107.1129907383.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> <43590C89.70505@gmail.com> <43591C20.6090808@cegetel.net> <43591D90.9050508@gmail.com> <43592901.7030407@cegetel.net> <43592A63.1010305@gmail.com> <43592C4B.3080302@cegetel.net> <43595C39.2080106@cegetel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <66D098C9-6DE8-472D-928A-3A0B5065D052@mnot.net> Cc: Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:38:06 -0700 To: Thomas Broyer X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So, an aggregator comes across a feed in the woods. It sees it has "previous" and maybe "next" link relations. The point that (I think) Thomas is making is that the people who leave that feed document in the woods had better be comfortable with the aggregator following the links and reconstructing the feed. After all, most of them already keep feed history without any hints about previous archives at all; if you give them a "previous" link, it'll be a red flag to a bull, no matter what my spec says. So, a feed that used "next" and "previous" to link to different weeks of the top 100 (for example) would get jumbled up pretty bad, and not display too well in aggregators. My thinking is that if we go down this road, one of two things will happen; a) Aggregators will start paying attention to special flags (like fh:incremental) that tell them the nature of the feed, and feeds will start using them real quick. b) Non-incremental uses of "previous" and "next" will die off, because people who use them for those purposes will see aggregators do strange things with their feeds. I think (b) is somewhat more likely. Either way, I'm OK, but I do note that (a) leads to two separate extensions being required in the feed, when the same purpose could be served by a more specialised link relation, and (b) will lead to other, more specialised link relations being created anyway. So I'm not sure why it's so important we have an effectively semantic- free "previous" and "next", but if that's what happens, I'm reasonably confident my use case will still be met. So, Thomas -- are you still -1 on this? I don't see how we can come to consensus on a more specific set of relations, given the flood of +1s on the generic ones. On 21/10/2005, at 2:23 PM, Thomas Broyer wrote: > > James Holderness wrote: > > >> >> Thomas Broyer wrote: >> >> >>> You didn't answer my last question: >>> >>> >>>>> How do you expect a newsreader to *automatically* download this >>>>> week's 50 entries without downloading last week's entries instead? >>>>> (and show you links/buttons for you to ask download and display >>>>> of previous/next week's Top 50) >>>>> >>>>> >> >> I see where you're coming from, but this kind of thing is already >> a problem without even taking links into consideration. >> >> For an aggregator to be able to do anything vaguely meaningful >> with a feed it has to be able to assume that the feed is >> incremental in nature. >> >> > As I already explained, paging is orthogonal to the incremental > nature of a feed. An incremental feed will be chunked as explained > in Mark's current Feed History draft (just use an atom:link > [@rel="previous"] instead of the fh:prev extension element) and a > non-incremental feed as described in the OpenSearch result 1.1 > draft. The difference is that an incremental feed is sorted by date > so the older parts will become more or less "stable" over time; > while a non-incremental feed is replaced as a whole each time it is > updated, with no other relation to time. > > >> When the feed is updated an aggregator will by default assume that >> any new items can safely be added to the top of an inbox, any >> updates are updates to existing items, and any removed items have >> merely "fallen off the bottom" of the feed. >> >> However, as soon as we introduce the concept of non-incremental >> feeds, an aggregator that is not aware of the concept will fail to >> process such a feed in a meaningful way. We've created a situation >> where an aggregator has to be aware of the (still to be specified) >> fh:incremental extension, Microsoft's simple list extensions for >> RSS, and whatever future extensions may arise; basically the >> ability to see into the future. >> >> This problem merely repeats itself when it comes to processing >> archives. When we receive a "next" link, ideally we would like to >> assume it's a pointer to the next archive to be processed. For a >> regular incremental feed this isn't a problem. Even a search feed >> could be processed safely if ordered the right way. However, when >> it comes to non-incremental feeds we're screwed again. I agree >> that it sucks, but we're already stuck with that situation so I'm >> not sure that these links will make things any worse. >> >> > What's the difference between a search feed and a non-incremental > feed? Aren't search feeds one facet of non-incremental feeds? > > The difference between incremental and non-incremental feeds is > that, when dealing with incremental feeds, paging can be seen as a > link to archives, as the feed is tightly related to time. When > dealing with non-incremental feed, the "previous page" is totally > different than the "previous archived snapshot". > However, an incremental feed could take advantage of > differentiating between paging and "archive linking": if linking to > archives uses an atom:link[@rel="archives"] (or call it "history" > if you prefer) to point at an incremental feed where each entry > describes an archived set of entries (see [1] for a more detailed > example); such a feed has the advantage of paging that it allows > direct access to a specific point of time inside the feed "pages". > Each "archived set of entries" could for example cover one or two > week, so a user could navigate through the "feed state" or "feed > history" not only by going from pages to pages but also by > accessing archived chunks via an "index" or "table of contents". > > -- > Thomas Broyer > > > > > -- Mark Nottingham Principal Technologist Office of the CTO BEA Systems -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 19:55:01 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET6iz-0002ro-JY for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:55:01 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA05769 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:54:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LNlp4V024454; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:47:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9LNlphi024453; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:47:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.200]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9LNlovP024436 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:47:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id v1so465551nzb for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:47:50 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=YnIVdYni8iPqDTDF2OrxpcUnr9z8kxNkkEIQi+ybjf46Q68Vw5k2Me7RFXRwaYU8kY6Bh5BB1xgXAAj1LDEzBLgzVxpVSmBamRPwEGvWg6hkxH8OPQ7GG3loZLFuU0LYXvZXnhPbjQFCfmx2qfn4CI6f9cSGfASmst0ma46sJT8= Received: by 10.37.13.75 with SMTP id q75mr3791877nzi; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:47:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 6sm868494nzn.2005.10.21.16.47.46; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:47:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43597E20.3040303@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:47:44 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "A. Pagaltzis" CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: What is this entry about? References: <43593E52.6020703@gmail.com> <20051021231850.GA686@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20051021231850.GA686@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id TAA05769 >Err, are you forgetting atom:category? Doesn=E2=80=99t that satisfy all >your wants *and* more? It has a URI, a term and a human-readable >label. > >Regards, > =20 > I dunno, that's why I was asking ;-) atom:category works well for categorizing entries, but does it really=20 tell us what the entry is about? For instance, suppose that I want to=20 indicate that an entry is about http://www.ibm.com and file that in a=20 category called technology? The categorization of the entry is=20 different than the subject of the entry.. tho both are definitely related. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 20:08:47 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET6wI-0004rc-QE for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 20:08:47 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA06339 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 20:08:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9M03XYG027822; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:03:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9M03XYH027821; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:03:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9M03XUL027810 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:03:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (unknown [63.96.164.158]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 157693D381; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 20:03:31 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1D96FDC9-2B92-4AF1-A06A-47541AA3C746@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <1511F6D0-B114-47D5-A0F4-5E35D5FF168F@mnot.net> Cc: Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:03:28 -0700 To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How about: - Description: A URI that refers to a feed document containing a set of the most recent entries in the feed. This URI is intended to be subscribed to to keep abreast of recent changes in the feed; when different from the URI of the document where it occurs, it indicates that its value should be used for this purpose in place of the current document's URI. For example, an archived feed document might contain a "subscribe" relation that points to the subscription feed's location, so that clients subscribe to the appropriate link. Note that the "self" relation was designed for a similar purpose, but is not suitable for that use in other feeds, whereas this relation can be used in those situations. On 21/10/2005, at 4:16 PM, Tim Bray wrote: > On Oct 21, 2005, at 3:13 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > >>> - Description: A URI that refers to a feed document containing >>> a set of the most recent entries in the feed. This URI is >>> intended to be subscribed to to keep abreast of recent changes in >>> the feed. When different from the URI of the document where it >>> occurs, it indicates that its value should be used for this >>> purpose in place of the current document's URI. >>> >> >> Any suggestions? >> > > Yes. Acknowledge the specific case of an archival feed, an example > is worth a thousand words. > > And discuss why this exist when Atom already has specifically designed to support auto-subscribe. -Tim > > > -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 20:10:26 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET6xu-0005w7-4Q for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 20:10:26 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA06375 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 20:10:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9M04FMv027989; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:04:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9M04FRM027988; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:04:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9M04EYE027968 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:04:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2005102200040801100s5i9be>; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 00:04:09 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: <43597E20.3040303@gmail.com> References: <43593E52.6020703@gmail.com> <20051021231850.GA686@klangraum> <43597E20.3040303@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <1CD4DE89-E88D-48B3-B34F-9393C9DCCB1E@geckotribe.com> From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: What is this entry about? Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 18:03:54 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9M04FYE027983 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id UAA06375 On Oct 21, 2005, at 5:47 PM, James M Snell wrote: >> Err, are you forgetting atom:category? Doesn=92t that satisfy all >> your wants *and* more? It has a URI, a term and a human-readable >> label. >> >> Regards, >> > I dunno, that's why I was asking ;-) > > atom:category works well for categorizing entries, but does it =20 > really tell us what the entry is about? For instance, suppose that =20 > I want to indicate that an entry is about http://www.ibm.com and =20 > file that in a category called technology? The categorization of =20 > the entry is different than the subject of the entry.. tho both are =20 > definitely related. Why don't we define link/@rel=3D"about" for pointing to a specific =20 internet resource that an entry is about (a little more specific than =20 the general case of rel=3D"related"). I know we discussed this before =20 and in the chaos of trying to hammer the spec out, didn't do it, but =20 I still think it's a good idea. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 21:26:14 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET89G-0003Pj-Pp for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 21:26:14 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA10230 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 21:26:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9M1JkTL043016; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 18:19:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9M1Jkbc043015; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 18:19:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav6.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.78]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9M1JjrS042998 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 18:19:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 18:19:42 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV6.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 01:19:42 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: <3895.194.250.147.107.1129907383.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> <43590C89.70505@gmail.com> <43591C20.6090808@cegetel.net> <43591D90.9050508@gmail.com> <43592901.7030407@cegetel.net> <43592A63.1010305@gmail.com> <43592C4B.3080302@cegetel.net> <43595C39.2080106@cegetel.net> Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 02:19:28 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Oct 2005 01:19:42.0612 (UTC) FILETIME=[AE3DAD40:01C5D6A6] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas Broyer wrote: > As I already explained, paging is orthogonal to the incremental nature of > a feed. An incremental feed will be chunked as explained in Mark's current > Feed History draft (just use an atom:link[@rel="previous"] instead of the > fh:prev extension element) and a non-incremental feed as described in the > OpenSearch result 1.1 draft. I beg to differ. I think the incremental state of a feed is very relevant to paging. If the aggregator does not know that a feed is non-incremental it will not be able to process the feed document in a meaningful manner. And when I say non-incremental I mean something like a "Top 10" list where the entries in the feed document are a complete replacement for any entries that the aggregator may have previously received from that feed. > What's the difference between a search feed and a non-incremental feed? > Aren't search feeds one facet of non-incremental feeds? Not necessarily, no. A search feed could quite easily be implemented as an incremental feed. This is the most sensible approach since it would allow the feed to be viewed in all existing aggregators without requiring a special knowledge of non-incremental feeds. The initial feed document consists of all known results at the time the search is initiated. As new results are discovered over time, the feed can be updated by adding new entries to the top of the feed in much the same way that new entries would be added to the top of a blogging feed. In fact, if you do a search with something like feedster, this is exactly the sort of feed you will get back. Once you add paging support, the search results can be split over multiple pages in much the same way that an incremental feed splits its entries over multiple archives. As long as the search feed adds new entries to the top of the subscribed document and moves older results into archives as they fall out the bottom, it can be processed in exactly the same way as a regular incremental feed. > However, an incremental feed could take advantage of differentiating > between paging and "archive linking": if linking to archives uses an > atom:link[@rel="archives"] (or call it "history" if you prefer) to point > at an incremental feed where each entry describes an archived set of > entries (see [1] for a more detailed example); such a feed has the > advantage of paging that it allows direct access to a specific point of > time inside the feed "pages". Each "archived set of entries" could for > example cover one or two week, so a user could navigate through the "feed > state" or "feed history" not only by going from pages to pages but also by > accessing archived chunks via an "index" or "table of contents". This is all very interesting, but not possible without more link extensions which don't exist yet. With what we have so far we can do incremental feed archives; we can do at least some form of searching; we can do non-incremental feeds (of the "Top 10" variety) with history. I think that's a good start. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 22:15:47 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET8vD-0006YF-8k for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:15:47 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA12115 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:15:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9M2AP5U054132; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:10:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9M2AP4a054131; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:10:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [63.240.77.81]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9M2AOqN054111 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:10:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2005102202101801100ru9cme>; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 02:10:18 +0000 In-Reply-To: References: <3895.194.250.147.107.1129907383.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> <43590C89.70505@gmail.com> <43591C20.6090808@cegetel.net> <43591D90.9050508@gmail.com> <43592901.7030407@cegetel.net> <43592A63.1010305@gmail.com> <43592C4B.3080302@cegetel.net> <43595C39.2080106@cegetel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 20:10:16 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Oct 21, 2005, at 7:19 PM, James Holderness wrote: >> What's the difference between a search feed and a non-incremental >> feed? Aren't search feeds one facet of non-incremental feeds? > > Not necessarily, no. A search feed could quite easily be > implemented as an incremental feed. This is the most sensible > approach since it would allow the feed to be viewed in all existing > aggregators without requiring a special knowledge of non- > incremental feeds. If your goal is to work as well as possible with today's client software, then bending your data to fit their model is the most sensible approach, but that's not always the goal. > The initial feed document consists of all known results at the time > the search is initiated. As new results are discovered over time, > the feed can be updated by adding new entries to the top of the > feed in much the same way that new entries would be added to the > top of a blogging feed. In fact, if you do a search with something > like feedster, this is exactly the sort of feed you will get back. If creation time is relevant to the data being searched, then this makes sense. But what if I want to subscribe to the top 10 Google results for some keywords I'm trying to optimize my site for (ignoring the fact that Google doesn't return search results in any feed format right now)? Or what about alternative sort orders which are available on sites like Feedster, Google News, etc.? (You can sort by relevance rather than date--the date still has some weight, but the results aren't strictly in date order). How about Amazon.com affiliates who want to use an RSS parser to display affiliates links to "best sellers" search results? There are a lot of search use cases that don't fit the incremental model. All that said, search results are often a bit different than "top 10" lists and the like. With search results, you often don't want to view the contents of the feed in order all at once--the first time you do, but after that, you may just want to see new things as they make it up into the top positions. Today's clients can handle that just fine, unless you want to monitor more than just the first page of results. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 22:49:14 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET9Ra-0005vy-As for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:49:14 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA13303 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:49:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9M2h2Lt060778; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:43:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9M2h2aF060777; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:43:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav5.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.77]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9M2h2Ej060749 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:43:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:42:56 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV5.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 02:42:56 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "James M Snell" , "Atom Syntax" References: <43593C8C.6060603@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Profile links Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 03:42:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Oct 2005 02:42:56.0751 (UTC) FILETIME=[4EFACFF0:01C5D6B2] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm not sure if I've understood you correctly, but if this could be used as a hint to the aggregator on how best to process/display the feed then I think it's a great idea. For example, knowing that a feed was a collection of images (e.g. a Flickr feed) would enable the aggregator to automatically display the entries as an image thumbnail list. A feed of calendar events (using a microformat of some sort) could be automatically added to the user's calendar. I'm sure there are many other ways in which this could be useful. My only worry is that without some kind of profile registry it would be very difficult for an aggregator to do anything meaningful with the data. Where would you find a list of all existing profiles? If there are 10 different profiles that all suggest more or less the same thing which one(s) should an aggregator support? Perhaps we could start with a predefined set of well-known profiles? I really think this idea has great potential though. Regards James James M Snell wrote: > > Another subject that has come up in recent discussions is an extension > that can be used to specify the purpose of a feed. For example, is the > feed an archive, is it a podcast, is it used for discovering web services > or publishing blog content, etc. > > The approach that I have in mind is to use link[rel="profile"] where the > href points to a profile document of some sort. > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 22:53:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ET9VL-0007Cl-BG for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:53:07 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA13444 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:52:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9M2l6eG061672; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:47:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9M2l6SV061671; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:47:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from xproxy.gmail.com (xproxy.gmail.com [66.249.82.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9M2l6dR061664 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:47:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id h31so47877wxd for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:47:05 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=MQRWUp2ZaK/h+IDIFPewGtJW/nLMHTupDp8eC93WydDlWi1dBaTXW5jDWvdWu3+JmadqiTNMfeE0YDoSY6to4BTI380mSWMQqwdA2l9uuUPxmmoOPH4Epf5hShoOlg5qaq24KYPRpm469XrZ2GUU09tA4lwOlw8gtNaWNb/qrS4= Received: by 10.70.91.7 with SMTP id o7mr1830114wxb; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id i33sm1061630wxd.2005.10.21.19.47.05; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4359A825.3030606@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:47:01 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Holderness CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Profile links References: <43593C8C.6060603@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Holderness wrote: > I'm not sure if I've understood you correctly, but if this could be > used as a hint to the aggregator on how best to process/display the > feed then I think it's a great idea. > Yes, that's exactly what it's for. > For example, knowing that a feed was a collection of images (e.g. a > Flickr feed) would enable the aggregator to automatically display the > entries as an image thumbnail list. A feed of calendar events (using a > microformat of some sort) could be automatically added to the user's > calendar. I'm sure there are many other ways in which this could be > useful. > > My only worry is that without some kind of profile registry it would > be very difficult for an aggregator to do anything meaningful with the > data. Where would you find a list of all existing profiles? If there > are 10 different profiles that all suggest more or less the same thing > which one(s) should an aggregator support? Perhaps we could start with > a predefined set of well-known profiles? > That's precisely why I want the profile references to be dereferenceable into some form of profile document that can describe the profile. I considered a registry of profiles but wasn't sure if that was a good idea or not. Still stewing on it. I definitely think the definition of profiles needs to be a community effort, much like the way that the microformats community is working collaboratively to define microformat profiles. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 23:26:15 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETA1O-0007ce-W1 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:26:15 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA14675 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:26:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9M3KoVo069503; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 20:20:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9M3KoYf069501; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 20:20:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav7.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.79]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9M3Kowd069482 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 20:20:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 20:20:44 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV7.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 03:20:44 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "James M Snell" , "Atom Syntax" References: <435936EA.3060102@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 04:20:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Oct 2005 03:20:44.0752 (UTC) FILETIME=[96D04D00:01C5D6B7] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James M Snell wrote: > Ok, now that a number of the other extensions I've been working on are > moving along, it's time to turn my attention to a couple of other ideas > I've been stewing on. One of which is link[rel="sponsored"] to indicate > sponsored links / advertisements within feeds. Not sure about this. Why would an aggregator display such a link? At best you might get an option in the aggregator asking whether the user wanted to see sponsored links, but then you have to ask yourself how many users would enable such an option. As a content provider I would be inclined to just slap them at the bottom of the message somewhere with a little header saying "sponsored links". Not pretty, but at least you can be sure the links will be seen. > Lastly, a while back Eric Scheid and I discussed a bit about how alternate > locations for a link could be expressed (e.g. mirrors). He was going to > write up a draft, but I'm not sure about the status of that effort. Here's > what I'm thinking: > > > > > I like this a lot. You get fallback support when a link goes down as well as the ability to download from multiple sources simultaneously for extra speed. For this to work, though, it's vital that these resources are bit-for-bit identical. If not I think they MUST include an x:md5 attribute so an aggregator can tell which are safe to interleave. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 21 23:43:34 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETAIA-000362-DO for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:43:34 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA15353 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:43:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9M3YeUL072668; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 20:34:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9M3YeF1072667; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 20:34:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.205]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9M3Ye56072661 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 20:34:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i28so418246nzi for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 20:34:39 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=d+kSzg8UdJqv1X7ovcXTfl7EbHwlSjhyXpDZi+6iWcksbtTkLH1PhGl0BJxGt79RYoYkMWrV1J1Jyq8z6hNpONv05L/lfLRJUtmCRevNm6pv3WfQQnXKDVNhKbiyWsJSrNjMZktCsI8s+cRcsCFoDItl9ed4EKpq1D4y2RtBEaM= Received: by 10.37.12.59 with SMTP id p59mr3559471nzi; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 20:34:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 40sm3934982nzf.2005.10.21.20.34.37; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 20:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4359B34A.8080203@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 20:34:34 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Holderness CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions References: <435936EA.3060102@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Holderness wrote: > James M Snell wrote: > >> Ok, now that a number of the other extensions I've been working on >> are moving along, it's time to turn my attention to a couple of other >> ideas I've been stewing on. One of which is link[rel="sponsored"] to >> indicate sponsored links / advertisements within feeds. > > > Not sure about this. Why would an aggregator display such a link? At > best you might get an option in the aggregator asking whether the user > wanted to see sponsored links, but then you have to ask yourself how > many users would enable such an option. As a content provider I would > be inclined to just slap them at the bottom of the message somewhere > with a little header saying "sponsored links". Not pretty, but at > least you can be sure the links will be seen. > I know, this basically comes down to a trust issue... that is, do you trust that aggregators and users will respect 'em. I'm not convinced either, but I wanted to at least float the idea. >> Lastly, a while back Eric Scheid and I discussed a bit about how >> alternate locations for a link could be expressed (e.g. mirrors). He >> was going to write up a draft, but I'm not sure about the status of >> that effort. Here's what I'm thinking: >> >> >> >> >> > > > I like this a lot. You get fallback support when a link goes down as > well as the ability to download from multiple sources simultaneously > for extra speed. For this to work, though, it's vital that these > resources are bit-for-bit identical. If not I think they MUST include > an x:md5 attribute so an aggregator can tell which are safe to > interleave. > Good points. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 02:10:53 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETCai-00073J-QR for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 02:10:52 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA20732 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 02:10:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9M62IgD006292; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:02:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9M62IU7006289; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:02:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mX1.myOutlookonline.com (mx1.MyOutlookOnline.com [69.25.74.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9M62G2e006163 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:02:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from byrne@sixapart.com) Received: from be022.mail.lan ([10.109.209.122]) by mX1.myOutlookonline.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sat, 22 Oct 2005 02:02:12 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 02:02:11 -0400 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? Thread-Index: AcXV0stGMvqoD38cSTCOLU8OTMRU4gA2UpIg From: "Byrne Reese" To: "Mark Nottingham" , "Atom Syntax" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Oct 2005 06:02:12.0028 (UTC) FILETIME=[24E14FC0:01C5D6CE] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9M62H2c006274 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit +1 to all. Wheeee! > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org > [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Mark Nottingham > Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 4:53 PM > To: Atom Syntax > Subject: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? > > > At this point, I believe the following represent as close to > consensus as we're able to get (although I'm happy to be > proven wrong, as long as there are counterproposals that can > gain consensus). > > To move forward, please either +1 or -1 them, preferably with > replacement text if you -1. Once there seems to be rough > consensus, I plan to make a request to IANA and point the > IESG to this discussion thread to illuminate their deliberations. > > - Attribute Value: previous > - Description: A URI that refers to the immediately > preceding document in a series of documents. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: Automated agents should take > care when this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., > the URI has a different authority than the current document). > Such agents should also take care to detect circular references. > > - Attribute Value: next > - Description: A URI that refers to the immediately > following document in a series of documents. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: Automated agents should take > care when this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., > the URI has a different authority than the current document). > Such agents should also take care to detect circular references. > > - Attribute Value: first > - Description: A URI that refers to the furthest preceding > document in a series of documents. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: Automated agents should take > care when this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., > the URI has a different authority than the current document). > Such agents should also take care to detect circular references. > > - Attribute Value: last > - Description: A URI that refers to the furthest following > document in a series of documents. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: Automated agents should take > care when this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., > the URI has a different authority than the current document). > Such agents should also take care to detect circular references. > > - Attribute Value: subscribe > - Description: A URI that refers to a feed document > containing a set of the most recent entries in the feed. This > URI is intended to be subscribed to to keep abreast of recent > changes in the feed. When different from the URI of the > document where it occurs, it indicates that its value should > be used for this purpose in place of the current document's URI. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: Users should be informed of the > actual URI they are subscribing to, and subscription should > only take place when it is explicitly requested. > > > -- > Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 02:11:43 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETCbX-0000GW-9D for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 02:11:43 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA20785 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 02:11:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9M62I2R006306; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:02:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9M62IwJ006304; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:02:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mX1.myOutlookonline.com (mx1.MyOutlookOnline.com [69.25.74.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9M62G2g006163 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:02:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from byrne@sixapart.com) Received: from be022.mail.lan ([10.109.209.122]) by mX1.myOutlookonline.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sat, 22 Oct 2005 02:02:14 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 02:02:14 -0400 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? Thread-Index: AcXWV5JrUPqP9oW6Q1acV8OppEAckQAVSikA From: "Byrne Reese" To: "James M Snell" , "A. Pagaltzis" Cc: "Atom Syntax" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Oct 2005 06:02:14.0981 (UTC) FILETIME=[26A3E750:01C5D6CE] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9M62I2c006290 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >Second, although less important - even applications which do support > >rel="subscribe" will have to implement a fallback behaviour. > Arguably, > >they already do in some fashion, because a feed may omit the > rel="self" > >link, so I don't know if this is such a pressing issue. > > > >For these two (similar) reasons I think it might be wise to keep > >rel="self" in the role that this new rel="subscribe" thing > is supposed > >to fulfill, and invent a new relationship that can point to the > >canonical location of the archive feed document. > > > > > > > -1. self always points to *this* document and is only usable > for subscribing to *this* document. You cannot use it to > point to a separate document. I agree with James. I like to think of it like this: * = current page/document/feed in a 9 page archive 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 |----|----|----|----*----|----|----|----| ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ rel=subscribe | | rel=next rel=last Rel=first | rel=self | "current page" rel=prev You should subscribe to the HEAD of the feed (assuming there are multiple pages to the feed. Self is analogous to "this" and should be /purely/ (excuse the circular definition) self referencial. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 02:29:01 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETCsG-00046N-PF for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 02:29:00 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA21424 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 02:28:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9M6OZIB024748; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:24:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9M6OZWS024747; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:24:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9M6OYNo024718 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:24:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from fe-amer-09.sun.com ([192.18.108.183]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9M6OY3F024277 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 00:24:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.11 (built Jan 28 2005)) id <0IOR00F0109L1A00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 00:24:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.31] ([216.113.201.135]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.11 (built Jan 28 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0IOR005F20GXZ7S8@mail-amer.sun.com>; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 00:24:34 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:25:09 -0700 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? In-reply-to: <1511F6D0-B114-47D5-A0F4-5E35D5FF168F@mnot.net> To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Atom Syntax Message-id: <10043842-1113-4290-A89C-A5255DC27EE6@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 References: <1D96FDC9-2B92-4AF1-A06A-47541AA3C746@sun.com> <1511F6D0-B114-47D5-A0F4-5E35D5FF168F@mnot.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Oct 21, 2005, at 5:03 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > How about: > > - Description: A URI that refers to a feed document containing a > set of the most recent entries in the feed. This URI is intended to > be subscribed to to keep abreast of recent changes in the feed; > when different from the URI of the document where it occurs, it > indicates that its value should be used for this purpose in place > of the current document's URI. For example, an archived feed > document might contain a "subscribe" relation that points to the > subscription feed's location, so that clients subscribe to the > appropriate link. Note that the "self" relation was designed for a > similar purpose, but is not suitable for that use in other feeds, > whereas this relation can be used in those situations. On consideration, I am -1 to rel="subscribe". The reason is this: one of the big potential value-adds Atom brings is a standards- compliant way to do one-click auto-subscribe, via . You are proposing to introduce a which is there to support autosubscribe. But, it turns out, only in the special case where the feed is static and you wouldn't actually subscribe to it. I think the risk of confusing implementors and weakening the value proposition around ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 05:17:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9M9AuYA074573; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 02:10:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9M9Au0T074572; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 02:10:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav6.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.78]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9M9AuT6074563 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 02:10:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 02:10:55 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV6.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:10:55 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Tim Bray" , "Mark Nottingham" Cc: "Atom Syntax" References: <1D96FDC9-2B92-4AF1-A06A-47541AA3C746@sun.com> <1511F6D0-B114-47D5-A0F4-5E35D5FF168F@mnot.net> <10043842-1113-4290-A89C-A5255DC27EE6@Sun.COM> Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:10:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Oct 2005 09:10:55.0560 (UTC) FILETIME=[823B2C80:01C5D6E8] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Bray wrote: > On consideration, I am -1 to rel="subscribe". The reason is this: one of > the big potential value-adds Atom brings is a standards- compliant way to > do one-click auto-subscribe, via >. You are proposing to introduce a which > is there to support autosubscribe. But, it turns out, only in the > special case where the feed is static and you wouldn't actually subscribe > to it. I think the risk of confusing implementors and weakening the > value proposition around supporting this special case. At the time "subscribe" was proposed it wasn't clear that there would be a "first" and "last". However, since that is now the case, would it not short-circuit a whole lot of argument if we just threw out "subscribe" altogether? Determining whether an Atom document is an archive can be achieved by looking for the presence of a "prev" link and/or a "first" link that is not equal to "self". As for finding the subscribtion URI itself - that should just be the "first" link shouldn't it? I don't want to get dragged back into a long argument on this so if you think this is a stupid idea don't expect any defence from me. I'm just throwing it out there with the hope that it might be workable. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 05:46:25 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETFxH-00072t-Qg for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 05:46:25 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA29408 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 05:46:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9M9a09v080100; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 02:36:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9M9a0sc080099; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 02:36:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav7.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.79]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9M9Zxqg080093 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 02:35:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 02:35:59 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV7.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:35:59 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: References: <3895.194.250.147.107.1129907383.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> <43590C89.70505@gmail.com> <43591C20.6090808@cegetel.net> <43591D90.9050508@gmail.com> <43592901.7030407@cegetel.net> <43592A63.1010305@gmail.com> <43592C4B.3080302@cegetel.net> <43595C39.2080106@cegetel.net> Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:35:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Oct 2005 09:35:59.0788 (UTC) FILETIME=[02D226C0:01C5D6EC] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Antone Roundy write: > If creation time is relevant to the data being searched, then this makes > sense. But what if I want to subscribe to the top 10 Google results for > some keywords I'm trying to optimize my site for (ignoring the fact that > Google doesn't return search results in any feed format right now)? That kind of search would be best implemented as a non-incremental feed. To me it sounds exactly the same as a "Top 10" movie list. > Or what about alternative sort orders which are available on sites like > Feedster, Google News, etc.? (You can sort by relevance rather than > date--the date still has some weight, but the results aren't strictly in > date order). Personally I would still implement this as an incremental feed (new results being added to the top of the feed). If you want an alternative order then you can make use of something like the rank extension that James was proposing. I really don't see any other way that something like this could be implemented unless you included every single search result whenever the feed was refreshed. For example, let say you have a feed with a limit of 10 items. A new search result is discovered that needs to be sorted (for whatever reason) to the bottom of the list (i.e. position 11). How do you go about informing the user of this new result short of growing the feed to include 11 items? Adding a second page to your search results is not a feasible option. You can't expect an aggregator to retrieve the full list of pages every time it refreshes just on the off chance that something new was inserted way down at the bottom of the list. > How about Amazon.com affiliates who want to use an RSS parser to display > affiliates links to "best sellers" search results? There are a lot of > search use cases that don't fit the incremental model. True. I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that a many (most?) searches can be implemented with the incremental model and those that can't can usually be implemented with a "top 10" non-incremental model. > All that said, search results are often a bit different than "top 10" > lists and the like. With search results, you often don't want to view > the contents of the feed in order all at once--the first time you do, but > after that, you may just want to see new things as they make it up into > the top positions. This still looks like the incremental model to me. The fact that the initial results aren't in date order doesn't matter from a processing point of view. All that matters is that new results are added to the top of the list. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 06:36:15 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETGjW-0006xD-IY for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 06:36:15 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA01798 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 06:36:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MASimc089116; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 03:28:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MASiFK089115; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 03:28:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MAShsn089108 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 03:28:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Sat, 22 Oct 2005 20:30:45 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 20:28:34 +1000 Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <10043842-1113-4290-A89C-A5255DC27EE6@Sun.COM> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 22/10/05 4:25 PM, "Tim Bray" wrote: > On consideration, I am -1 to rel="subscribe". The reason is this: > one of the big potential value-adds Atom brings is a standards- > compliant way to do one-click auto-subscribe, via > You are proposing to introduce a which > is there to support autosubscribe. But, it turns out, only in the > special case where the feed is static and you wouldn't actually > subscribe to it. I think the risk of confusing implementors and > weakening the value proposition around exceeds the benefit of supporting this special case. I think you've got the special case turned around. That is, if you are looking at a representation of the active feed then the 'self' link would happen to match the 'subscribe' link, which is the exception. The defining text in the spec says this about 'self' The value "self" signifies that the IRI in the value of the href attribute identifies a resource equivalent to the containing element. atom:link[@rel='self'] can also appear in atom:entry, which would be used for pointing to Atom Entry Documents, which explains why the text says "the containing element". I don't believe anyone is thinking we should be able to subscribe to Atom Entry Documents. > Plus, I think the thing isn't properly named. It isn't actually > "subscribe in the general case", Are we yet in a situation were we have a preponderance of deployed feeds using 'self' to mean 'subscribe'? Actually, that's the wrong question to ask (see below) Are we yet in a situation were we have preponderance of deployed applications that look for 'self' for subscription purposes? I think we're in the early days of Atom 1.0 adoption, and we can very likely talk up via blogs, articles, etc the idea of "subscribe in the general case" using @rel='subscribe'. The only deployed inertia we have to over come is with aggregator developers. We don't have to worry about any deployed feeds that only have 'self' links (I'll explain in a moment). We only need to explain things to the various aggregator developers. The general idea would be for the application to look for a 'subscribe' link first up, and failing that a 'self' link. Very simple. We don't have to worry about deployed feeds with 'self' links. They won't have 'subscribe' links unless they put effort into putting them there, in which case they could quite simply s/self/subscribe/. If a feed does not have 'subscribe' then 'self' would be found with the fall back. Could there eventually be feeds out there with only 'subscribe' and not 'self' ... they would be funky but not invalid (it's a SHOULD requirement, not a MUST) ... and the only applications that would fail to subscribe would be outdated p.o.c. > it's "in the special case where the > version you are looking at is static, point to the places where the > changes happen because they don't happen here". So, perhaps we > should consider rel="current-self" or rel="dynamic-version" or some > such. I'm thinking is that 'self' was not properly named in the first place. If the intent of that link was for subscription purposes, for pointing to the most recent updates for that feed, then it should have been named 'subscribe' or (as you say) a descriptive word indicating that is the sort of thing one would want to do with it. The idea of embedding a link to the URI to subscribe to was a very good one. Calling it 'self' was a bone-headed one. We were so caught up with the idea of being able to subscribe to the active feed we forgot to consider the case of seeing that link in the context of an archive. This is the same class of bone-headed mistake as using /html/head/link[@rel='alternate',@type="application/atom+xml"] for feed auto discovery. Consider for example this HTML page... Archive for January 2005 ... Now, one of those two links points to the URI you should subscribe to if you want to see the most recent updates, and the other link points to a URI which will give you the Atom Feed Document for the Archive for January 2005. Only problem is, you can't tell them apart. We painted ourselves into a corner. This 'self' thing is the same class of error as 'alternate'. Can we please learn from that mistake? > Finally, markup design that claims to enforce a specific action is > always questionable. The great virtue of descriptive markup in > general is that the tags tell you not what to do with things but what > they are. So on that basis, rel="current-version" or something is > better design. The verb/noun thing is a good point ... but how could 'self', which generally speaking, would point to a completely different set of data, be considered "descriptive"? FWIW, @rel="subscription" was offered up first, but then got switched to 'subscribe'. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 07:00:40 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETH7A-00086y-GH for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:00:40 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA02619 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:00:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MAs0NO094159; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 03:54:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MAs0QX094158; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 03:54:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav16.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.88]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MArjdQ094074 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 03:53:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 03:53:42 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV16.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:53:42 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:53:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Oct 2005 10:53:42.0544 (UTC) FILETIME=[DE0A4100:01C5D6F6] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Scheid wrote: >> Finally, markup design that claims to enforce a specific action is >> always questionable. The great virtue of descriptive markup in >> general is that the tags tell you not what to do with things but what >> they are. So on that basis, rel="current-version" or something is >> better design. > > The verb/noun thing is a good point ... but how could 'self', which > generally speaking, would point to a completely different set of data, be > considered "descriptive"? > > FWIW, @rel="subscription" was offered up first, but then got switched to > 'subscribe'. I guess that was my fault. My reasoning was that it would be more in line with the Atom Publication Protocol [1] which uses verbs for its link relations when they are suggesting an action ("edit", "srcedit"). If that's the wrong thing to do, somebody may want to inform the WG in case they aren't following this. Regards James [1] http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-05.txt (section 12) From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 07:55:26 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETHyA-00038j-Tg for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:55:26 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA04566 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:55:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MBiAmu007004; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 04:44:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MBiAAC007003; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 04:44:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MBi9ct006885 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 04:44:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Sat, 22 Oct 2005 21:45:41 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 19:15:39 +1000 Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 22/10/05 1:20 PM, "James Holderness" wrote: >> >> >> >> > > I like this a lot. You get fallback support when a link goes down as well as > the ability to download from multiple sources simultaneously for extra > speed. For this to work, though, it's vital that these resources are > bit-for-bit identical. If not I think they MUST include an x:md5 attribute > so an aggregator can tell which are safe to interleave. that's a different direction, but an interesting one. What we were thinking was along the lines of saying: here is enclosure in mp3 format, but it's also available as ogg, wav, and in hreflang="fr-CA" for you Canadian rebels. it would be fair to say that any two x:alternate with different @href's but equivalent x:md5 are mirrors. That can fit into the model with no other modifications :-) e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 08:46:20 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETIlP-00068N-Kw for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:46:20 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA09956 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:46:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MCdTEh019029; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 05:39:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MCdTpf019028; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 05:39:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chilco.textdrive.com (chilco.textdrive.com [207.7.108.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MCdSra019005 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 05:39:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: from [192.168.2.180] (83-70-29-35.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net [83.70.29.35]) by chilco.textdrive.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3688DA911; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:39:52 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <435A32F4.1070609@dehora.net> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:39:16 +0100 From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Antone Roundy CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: What is this entry about? References: <43593E52.6020703@gmail.com> <20051021231850.GA686@klangraum> <43597E20.3040303@gmail.com> <1CD4DE89-E88D-48B3-B34F-9393C9DCCB1E@geckotribe.com> In-Reply-To: <1CD4DE89-E88D-48B3-B34F-9393C9DCCB1E@geckotribe.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id IAA09956 Antone Roundy wrote: >=20 > On Oct 21, 2005, at 5:47 PM, James M Snell wrote: >=20 >>> Err, are you forgetting atom:category? Doesn=92t that satisfy all >>> your wants *and* more? It has a URI, a term and a human-readable >>> label. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >> I dunno, that's why I was asking ;-) >> >> atom:category works well for categorizing entries, but does it really >> tell us what the entry is about? For instance, suppose that I want >> to indicate that an entry is about http://www.ibm.com and file that >> in a category called technology? The categorization of the entry is >> different than the subject of the entry.. tho both are definitely >> related. >=20 >=20 > Why don't we define link/@rel=3D"about" for pointing to a specific=20 > internet resource that an entry is about (a little more specific than=20 > the general case of rel=3D"related"). I know we discussed this before=20 > and in the chaos of trying to hammer the spec out, didn't do it, but I > still think it's a good idea. -1 to about. The proposal here is saying the feed is subject to the link not that the link is the object of the feed. About can mean either. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 08:52:03 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETIqx-0001m5-SH for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:52:03 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA10141 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:51:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MChSai019837; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 05:43:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MChSI9019836; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 05:43:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chilco.textdrive.com (chilco.textdrive.com [207.7.108.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MChSRO019810 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 05:43:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: from [192.168.2.180] (83-70-29-35.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net [83.70.29.35]) by chilco.textdrive.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39F4ADA90E; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:43:52 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <435A33E3.5090801@dehora.net> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:43:15 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James M Snell CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Profile links References: <43593C8C.6060603@gmail.com> <43596CED.2070801@dehora.net> <4359769E.8030802@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4359769E.8030802@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id IAA10141 James M Snell wrote: >=20 > Bill de h=D3ra wrote: >=20 >> I think you're proposing to enable a kind of Atom microformat - "if yo= u >> see profile ?x check for ?a ?b and ?c". Sorting it out on consumer >> sounds flaky ('sounds', not 'is'), but this also might be very cool. I >> wonder why you need a link to do this instead of foo:profile tag. >> >> =20 >> > Precisely. Yes, sorting everything out on the client does *sound* > flaky, but we're not introducing any new problem here. XHTML > microformats have the same problem. Microformats for the most part have a defined structure; this proposal isn't providing structure. > Regarding the use of a link versus foo:profile, I really have no > preference one way or the other. The profile reference should be a > dereferencable link to a profile document that describes the profile > but, for the most part, clients will likely only rarely ever dereferenc= e > it (using the href more as an identifier). Strictly speaking, > dereferenceable profile links should probably use the atom:link element > but there is no hard requirement that says a profile element wouldn't > also work. Using atom:link strikes me as tag abuse [1]. But that's what microformats tend to do (use presentational markup for data). cheers Bill [1] http://www.ucc.ie/sdata/faq.html#whatis From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 09:54:27 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETJpL-0003Rw-HL for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:54:27 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA12365 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:54:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MDlXuU034961; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 06:47:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MDlXIL034960; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 06:47:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav1.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.73]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MDlWWf034946 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 06:47:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 06:47:32 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV1.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:47:32 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: <43592025.6010900@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Unofficial Last Call - draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-04.txt Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:47:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Oct 2005 13:47:32.0431 (UTC) FILETIME=[26BCB5F0:01C5D70F] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > [1] draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-03.txt (current version) > [2] draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-04.txt (new version waiting to > publish... no significant changes) Do you have a link for these? The only copy I could find on ietf.org was -01. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 10:11:38 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETK5y-00076d-BC for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:11:38 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA13598 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:11:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9ME78AK038823; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:07:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9ME78r2038822; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:07:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav16.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.88]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9ME77TX038816 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:07:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:07:07 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV16.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:07:07 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: <43591B07.5030804@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Unofficial Last Call - draft-snell-atompub-feed-index-03.txt Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:07:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Oct 2005 14:07:07.0528 (UTC) FILETIME=[E3264880:01C5D711] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James M Snell wrote: > As of today I am issuing an unofficial last call on the Feed Rank > extension > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-index-03.txt Some minor editing notes. In section 2 (Notional Conventions) you give "i" as your namespace prefix, but the examples in the rest of the document tend to use "r" most of the time. Also your page titles are all "Feed Index", whereas the main heading is "Feed Rank". In general you may want to consider standardizing on either "Index" or "Rank" throughout the document. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 10:22:03 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETKG2-0003lU-Jm for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:22:02 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA13937 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:21:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MEGQC7041285; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:16:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MEGQTV041284; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:16:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chilco.textdrive.com (chilco.textdrive.com [207.7.108.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MEGQtm041247 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:16:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: from [192.168.2.180] (83-70-29-35.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net [83.70.29.35]) by chilco.textdrive.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A861ADA914 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:16:50 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <435A49AD.1090100@dehora.net> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:16:13 +0100 From: =?UTF-8?B?QmlsbCBkZSBow5NyYQ==?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: What is this entry about? References: <43593E52.6020703@gmail.com> <20051021231850.GA686@klangraum> <43597E20.3040303@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <43597E20.3040303@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id KAA13937 James M Snell wrote: >=20 >=20 >> Err, are you forgetting atom:category? Doesn=E2=80=99t that satisfy al= l >> your wants *and* more? It has a URI, a term and a human-readable >> label. >> >> Regards, >> =20 >> > I dunno, that's why I was asking ;-) >=20 > atom:category works well for categorizing entries, but does it really > tell us what the entry is about? =20 This is the same as the dc v custom thing. Atom category imparts no less information on 'aboutness' that dc subject or some custom tag. > For instance, suppose that I want to > indicate that an entry is about http://www.ibm.com and file that in a > category called technology? The categorization of the entry is > different than the subject of the entry.. tho both are definitely relat= ed. There are two distinct forms of discourse going on here - This entry is talking about some subject area or entity or resource. It says something about something else. Being able to do this pretty much why RDF was invented. - This entry is classifiable under some subject area or topic or class. It has something has sense of belonging or association to something else. Being able to do this is pretty much why Topic Maps were invented. Please, please, please, do not conflate these. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 10:51:14 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETKiH-0004Xj-T7 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:51:14 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA14910 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:51:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MEiiEI046328; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:44:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MEiiQ8046327; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:44:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MEihuZ046321 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:44:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i27so348375wra for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:44:42 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=AKQKodHGTK+lmbBAkO8vcQh3BCOOqTRTfEGU3UkG8GmXkb7XBcauqmBdQLhPi36pQ5Kan65ixYpGVZPIGgr0D/Hg0BuSZcd7EEdeV5fUR4fitVcgKgXkINSCCLxnyfVfz74E4I1Lj0ZaVWhKs4JkEGTk2iajAVLfjihwkw4fqJs= Received: by 10.54.16.11 with SMTP id 11mr1911736wrp; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:44:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 8sm7964130wrl.2005.10.22.07.44.42; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:44:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <435A5057.1020609@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:44:39 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Holderness CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Unofficial Last Call - draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-04.txt References: <43592025.6010900@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ah crap, that's what I get for editing multiple docs at once. It's supposed to be -01 and -02. I'll get that fixed. The -01 is the current version; the new version waiting to publish has no significant updates (just some minor typo stuff) so you should safely be able to base your feedback on the -01 version. James Holderness wrote: > >> [1] draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-03.txt (current version) >> [2] draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-04.txt (new version waiting to >> publish... no significant changes) > > > Do you have a link for these? The only copy I could find on ietf.org > was -01. > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 10:53:36 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETKka-0006Hi-Eq for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:53:36 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA14976 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:53:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MEnCrO047480; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:49:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MEnC7L047479; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:49:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MEnBYB047471 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:49:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i17so458017wra for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:49:11 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=tAby2tyk4Lj73Ig+9hN2YXXnv1CCZbOyhH4pKhK3R7YHn5SHylpPAPqJfl9TfnU5kKtwyLTcBgLeqeGzE6Sl1y+2FutaVo5kEAItT2sqgmIVHSONCPKwdlL1BZ2bFVuSuloXEhpWsNViqkeGtplhqNZM8HDQWZ1nwxXFwXTpITQ= Received: by 10.54.83.1 with SMTP id g1mr231263wrb; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 6sm1439074wrl.2005.10.22.07.49.10; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <435A5163.2040909@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:49:07 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?QmlsbCBkZSBow5NyYQ==?= CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: What is this entry about? References: <43593E52.6020703@gmail.com> <20051021231850.GA686@klangraum> <43597E20.3040303@gmail.com> <435A49AD.1090100@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: <435A49AD.1090100@dehora.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id KAA14976 Bill de h=C3=93ra wrote: >>For instance, suppose that I want to >>indicate that an entry is about http://www.ibm.com and file that in a >>category called technology? The categorization of the entry is >>different than the subject of the entry.. tho both are definitely relat= ed. >> =20 >> > >There are two distinct forms of discourse going on here > >- This entry is talking about some subject area or entity or resource. >It says something about something else. Being able to do this pretty >much why RDF was invented. > >- This entry is classifiable under some subject area or topic or class. >It has something has sense of belonging or association to something >else. Being able to do this is pretty much why Topic Maps were invented. > >Please, please, please, do not conflate these. > > =20 > Oh absolutely, I'm not trying to conflate 'em. I want to find a=20 solution to the first case ("this entry is talking about some subject=20 area") that preferably does not involve invention or abuse of existing=20 formats/tags. I'm more than aware that RDF does this already but I not=20 sure how that fact helps us in Atom (which is not RDF). - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 11:02:28 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETKtA-0003GL-7q for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:02:28 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA15395 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:02:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MEqDEP048055; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:52:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MEqDT1048054; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:52:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.196]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MEqC53048048 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:52:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id v1so539503nzb for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:52:12 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Kjw95KMsRdiPRxKfdeKCRl0hoVo8fwp14tBbuItppw0VxZg+BLahNNJbEi6EteoiTUYVwTwmdAG4PAg0drrTmaJPSUQklXSTRR2U+wlThM9PlLPRl+i9VT2Af6aqkHibBHY89rHzWFIrwrUgkYSLFzYewkLBwoUvOc/WWySV4wo= Received: by 10.36.252.77 with SMTP id z77mr4474157nzh; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:52:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id j7sm471510nzd.2005.10.22.07.52.11; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:52:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <435A5218.7060805@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:52:08 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Profile links References: <43593C8C.6060603@gmail.com> <43596CED.2070801@dehora.net> <4359769E.8030802@gmail.com> <435A33E3.5090801@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: <435A33E3.5090801@dehora.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id LAA15395 Bill de h=D3ra wrote: >Microformats for the most part have a defined structure; this proposal >isn't providing structure. > > =20 > For the most part yes. >>Regarding the use of a link versus foo:profile, I really have no >>preference one way or the other. The profile reference should be a >>dereferencable link to a profile document that describes the profile >>but, for the most part, clients will likely only rarely ever dereferenc= e >>it (using the href more as an identifier). Strictly speaking, >>dereferenceable profile links should probably use the atom:link element >>but there is no hard requirement that says a profile element wouldn't >>also work. >> =20 >> > >Using atom:link strikes me as tag abuse [1]. But that's what >microformats tend to do (use presentational markup for data). > > =20 > Agreed. So what's a better solution? Like I said, I really have no=20 preference one way or the other. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 11:20:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETLAH-0005T7-Oa for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:20:09 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA16188 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:19:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MFF0lC053474; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:15:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MFF0NB053472; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:15:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from xproxy.gmail.com (xproxy.gmail.com [66.249.82.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MFExpx053462 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:14:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id s9so10878wxc for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:14:59 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Y5+mQ22/8QBfbKOEv2CK0P0J6X5e9suaIkpEDtVAFh3YM62o7BvosInkJuTp3mZEJDo+NLJ3xBvKR76How5GvFuwtsi74CeY/7nmfrCm+zb6d/tdGOT03SXwYxPeakLkz1AZy+AiomEVKjQLnAap4TfeAUrIW3nppa9tAwC5V9Y= Received: by 10.70.29.4 with SMTP id c4mr2452964wxc; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:14:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id i40sm1603001wxd.2005.10.22.08.14.54; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <435A576B.7060904@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:14:51 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Scheid CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Scheid wrote: >On 22/10/05 1:20 PM, "James Holderness" wrote: > > > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>I like this a lot. You get fallback support when a link goes down as well as >>the ability to download from multiple sources simultaneously for extra >>speed. For this to work, though, it's vital that these resources are >>bit-for-bit identical. If not I think they MUST include an x:md5 attribute >>so an aggregator can tell which are safe to interleave. >> >> > >that's a different direction, but an interesting one. > >What we were thinking was along the lines of saying: here is enclosure in >mp3 format, but it's also available as ogg, wav, and in hreflang="fr-CA" for >you Canadian rebels. > > > The challenge with using alternate to point to files of different types is that why would someone do (a) when they can already do (b) without the help of a new extension (a) (b) What I want is a way of indicating that a particular resource is available at multiple locations. I'll use multiple link elements to indicate that there are multiple formats. >it would be fair to say that any two x:alternate with different @href's but >equivalent x:md5 are mirrors. That can fit into the model with no other >modifications :-) > > > I would argue that the x:md5 for all alternates should be the same as the parent link. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 11:48:24 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETLbc-0003xJ-9P for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:48:24 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA17270 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:48:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MFedtX059584; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:40:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MFedjR059583; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:40:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MFecEi059569 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:40:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE053D380; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:40:35 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <10043842-1113-4290-A89C-A5255DC27EE6@Sun.COM> References: <1D96FDC9-2B92-4AF1-A06A-47541AA3C746@sun.com> <1511F6D0-B114-47D5-A0F4-5E35D5FF168F@mnot.net> <10043842-1113-4290-A89C-A5255DC27EE6@Sun.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <3AB94D8C-EFA2-4C33-B73A-FFB77E4DF272@mnot.net> Cc: Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:40:33 -0700 To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You seem to be saying that because link/@rel="self" was designed for a specific purpose, and even though its definition is quite descriptive (its definition *only* says it should be used to link to the current document; -11 says nothing about subscription) it should be the only way defined to do subscription. At the same time, you say that descriptive markup is good, and that relations shouldn't be proscriptive. I'm having trouble reconciling these statements. Is "self" really a proscriptive relation that's poorly documented? Standardising mechanisms where *wink wink, nudge nudge* everybody knows what to do are bad practice, and I'm very against reading more than what's documented being read into "self". It's a link to the current document; that's it. If it was intended to do more, it's poorly documented and frankly poorly designed, because it's only useful in the subscription document itself. OTOH, I'm happy to make this relation more declarative. How about: - Attribute Value: current - Description: A URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed document containing the most recent entries in the feed. - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a different authority than the current document). ? Such a relation would be usable in both archived and "dynamic" feed documents (in the latter case, it would be the same as "self"). On 21/10/2005, at 11:25 PM, Tim Bray wrote: > On Oct 21, 2005, at 5:03 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> How about: >> >> - Description: A URI that refers to a feed document containing a >> set of the most recent entries in the feed. This URI is intended >> to be subscribed to to keep abreast of recent changes in the feed; >> when different from the URI of the document where it occurs, it >> indicates that its value should be used for this purpose in place >> of the current document's URI. For example, an archived feed >> document might contain a "subscribe" relation that points to the >> subscription feed's location, so that clients subscribe to the >> appropriate link. Note that the "self" relation was designed for a >> similar purpose, but is not suitable for that use in other feeds, >> whereas this relation can be used in those situations. >> > > On consideration, I am -1 to rel="subscribe". The reason is this: > one of the big potential value-adds Atom brings is a standards- > compliant way to do one-click auto-subscribe, via >. You are proposing to introduce a which > is there to support autosubscribe. But, it turns out, only in the > special case where the feed is static and you wouldn't actually > subscribe to it. I think the risk of confusing implementors and > weakening the value proposition around exceeds the benefit of supporting this special case. > > Plus, I think the thing isn't properly named. It isn't actually > "subscribe in the general case", it's "in the special case where > the version you are looking at is static, point to the places where > the changes happen because they don't happen here". So, perhaps we > should consider rel="current-self" or rel="dynamic-version" or some > such. > > Finally, markup design that claims to enforce a specific action is > always questionable. The great virtue of descriptive markup in > general is that the tags tell you not what to do with things but > what they are. So on that basis, rel="current-version" or > something is better design. -Tim -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 11:50:43 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETLdr-0006Uk-Is for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:50:43 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA17412 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:50:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MFl5u0060942; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:47:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MFl5iK060941; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:47:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MFl4vF060934 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:47:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A90A23D380; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:47:02 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1D96FDC9-2B92-4AF1-A06A-47541AA3C746@sun.com> <1511F6D0-B114-47D5-A0F4-5E35D5FF168F@mnot.net> <10043842-1113-4290-A89C-A5255DC27EE6@Sun.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <94E495E8-3897-4486-9B34-8D92F14C23F3@mnot.net> Cc: "Tim Bray" , "Atom Syntax" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:47:01 -0700 To: James Holderness X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First and Last are (or at least can be) "static"; i.e. one can read the relations, as currently written, as saying that they point to the specific set of entries ("archive") that are first and list, respectively, at the time that the feed is minted. Subscribing to one of those would be... bad. If we had more specific relations, this would certainly be a lot easier. Keeping everything so loose and semantic-free seems to me like premature optimisation and a barrier to interoperability. HTTP, for example, seems to work just fine, despite having concrete semantics that are grounded in specific use cases for almost all of its headers (indeed, the least-used ones are those that are more descriptive). On 22/10/2005, at 2:10 AM, James Holderness wrote: > Tim Bray wrote: > >> On consideration, I am -1 to rel="subscribe". The reason is >> this: one of the big potential value-adds Atom brings is a >> standards- compliant way to do one-click auto-subscribe, via > rel="self" / >> >. You are proposing to introduce a which >> is there to support autosubscribe. But, it turns out, only in the >> special case where the feed is static and you wouldn't actually >> subscribe to it. I think the risk of confusing implementors and >> weakening the value proposition around > exceeds the benefit of supporting this special case. >> > > At the time "subscribe" was proposed it wasn't clear that there > would be a "first" and "last". However, since that is now the case, > would it not short-circuit a whole lot of argument if we just threw > out "subscribe" altogether? > > Determining whether an Atom document is an archive can be achieved > by looking for the presence of a "prev" link and/or a "first" link > that is not equal to "self". As for finding the subscribtion URI > itself - that should just be the "first" link shouldn't it? > > I don't want to get dragged back into a long argument on this so if > you think this is a stupid idea don't expect any defence from me. > I'm just throwing it out there with the hope that it might be > workable. > > Regards > James > > -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 12:17:30 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETM3l-0004XG-Pq for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:17:30 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA18683 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:17:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MGB5RL065269; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:11:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MGB5eP065268; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:11:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chilco.textdrive.com (chilco.textdrive.com [207.7.108.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MGB5WB065248 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:11:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: from [192.168.2.180] (83-70-29-35.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net [83.70.29.35]) by chilco.textdrive.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7D11DA916; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 16:11:29 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <435A648C.7040006@dehora.net> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 17:10:52 +0100 From: =?UTF-8?B?QmlsbCBkZSBow5NyYQ==?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax , Henry Story , Danny Ayers , James M Snell Subject: Re: What is this entry about? References: <43593E52.6020703@gmail.com> <20051021231850.GA686@klangraum> <43597E20.3040303@gmail.com> <435A49AD.1090100@dehora.net> <435A5163.2040909@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <435A5163.2040909@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id MAA18683 James M Snell wrote: > Bill de h=C3=93ra wrote: >=20 >>> For instance, suppose that I want to >>> indicate that an entry is about http://www.ibm.com and file that in a >>> category called technology? The categorization of the entry is >>> different than the subject of the entry.. tho both are definitely >>> related. >>> =20 >> >> >> There are two distinct forms of discourse going on here >> >> - This entry is talking about some subject area or entity or resource. >> It says something about something else. Being able to do this pretty >> much why RDF was invented. >> >> - This entry is classifiable under some subject area or topic or class. >> It has something has sense of belonging or association to something >> else. Being able to do this is pretty much why Topic Maps were invente= d. >> >> Please, please, please, do not conflate these. >> >> =20 >> > Oh absolutely, I'm not trying to conflate 'em. I want to find a > solution to the first case ("this entry is talking about some subject > area") that preferably does not involve invention or abuse of existing > formats/tags. I'm more than aware that RDF does this already but I not > sure how that fact helps us in Atom (which is not RDF). [RDF and TM were exemplary; cc'd to Henry/Danny] Ah ok; I had read the proposal initially as subject classification (dc:subject had me thinking that way). If you're looking for a way to say this is entry is saying stuff about something over there, then dc:subject and atom:category aren't a good fit as they're more or less pointing the wrong way. rdf:about is the closest analog in semweb land (plus it takes urls), but it's the wrong thing here (I'll get to this). You could do any of the following: - define an atom:about tag or attribute that takes a URL. - use a @rel=3Dabout on a link tag You can't use an rdf:about on the atom:entry element for this and that's to do with entry metadata associations. What we want to say is that the entry to talking about something else. With rdf:about the entry *metadata* will become bound to the something else and not the entry (which is messed up). The only sensible way I see is to work in terms of the entry URI and the URI you're pointing at: 'entryURI isabout someOtherURI' and define a new term for this purpose. Anyone that wants to model this formally has enough information in the entry markup to consistently generate the correct RDF statements out of band. [I'm not suggesting RDF stuff for this - it's just very useful for teasing out issues] cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 12:55:21 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETMeP-0007t8-Mv for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:55:21 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA20295 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:55:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MGnYGV072164; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:49:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MGnYKj072163; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:49:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MGnWQC072157 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:49:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from fe-amer-09.sun.com ([192.18.108.183]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MGnW3F022233 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:49:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.11 (built Jan 28 2005)) id <0IOR00901T77KE00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:49:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.31] ([216.113.201.135]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.11 (built Jan 28 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0IOR005EPTEHZ7H9@mail-amer.sun.com>; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:49:30 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:50:10 -0700 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? In-reply-to: To: Eric Scheid Cc: Atom Syntax Message-id: <6686E655-0EA0-4716-A0D4-807E035EF49C@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Oct 22, 2005, at 3:28 AM, Eric Scheid wrote: > I think you've got the special case turned around. That is, if you are > looking at a representation of the active feed then the 'self' link > would > happen to match the 'subscribe' link, which is the exception. The > defining > text in the spec says this about 'self' > > The value "self" signifies that the IRI in the value of > the href attribute identifies a resource equivalent to > the containing element. > > atom:link[@rel='self'] can also appear in atom:entry, which would > be used > for pointing to Atom Entry Documents, which explains why the text > says "the > containing element". I don't believe anyone is thinking we should > be able to > subscribe to Atom Entry Documents. I'm entirely unconvinced. There are two kinds of feed, the dynamic kind and the static kind. For dynamic feeds, use rel="self" to subscribe. For static feeds, use some new relationship like rel="dynamic" to point to the dynamic version that you might subscribe to. I agree that, in retrospect, the spec should have said that one intended use of rel="self" is to support auto-subscribe. I don't think adding on a new link relationship is the right answer. > Are we yet in a situation were we have a preponderance of deployed > feeds > using 'self' to mean 'subscribe'? Actually, that's the wrong > question to ask > (see below) Well, all the Atom feeds I see use rel="self" in the way you'd expect. > Are we yet in a situation were we have preponderance of deployed > applications that look for 'self' for subscription purposes? Well, no, because we actually don't have that many apps yet that really grok Atom. When they do, and they want to do auto- subscription, Atom is well-equipped to support it. > I think we're in the early days of Atom 1.0 adoption, and we can > very likely > talk up via blogs, articles, etc the idea of "subscribe in the > general case" > using @rel='subscribe'. No. We already have a way to do that and don't need to invent another. -1 on rel="subscribe". -Tim (oh, and I should have said, +1 on the rest of those relationships) From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 13:00:20 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETMjD-0000Dx-Nr for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:00:19 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA20546 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:00:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MGq7na072571; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:52:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MGq73w072570; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:52:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MGq6bZ072562 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:52:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from fe-amer-09.sun.com ([192.18.108.183]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MGq63F023183 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:52:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.11 (built Jan 28 2005)) id <0IOR00B01THW5200@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:52:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.31] ([216.113.201.135]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.11 (built Jan 28 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0IOR005J5TISZ7H9@mail-amer.sun.com>; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:52:04 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:52:45 -0700 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? In-reply-to: <3AB94D8C-EFA2-4C33-B73A-FFB77E4DF272@mnot.net> To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Atom Syntax Message-id: <26C3E7C1-035D-49B9-9455-A9FBA2615B51@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 References: <1D96FDC9-2B92-4AF1-A06A-47541AA3C746@sun.com> <1511F6D0-B114-47D5-A0F4-5E35D5FF168F@mnot.net> <10043842-1113-4290-A89C-A5255DC27EE6@Sun.COM> <3AB94D8C-EFA2-4C33-B73A-FFB77E4DF272@mnot.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Oct 22, 2005, at 8:40 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > You seem to be saying that because link/@rel="self" was designed > for a specific purpose, and even though its definition is quite > descriptive (its definition *only* says it should be used to link > to the current document; -11 says nothing about subscription) it > should be the only way defined to do subscription. Agreed that the description could be better. What I'm actually saying is "since we already have a way to do subscription, we don't need to invent another." Also that the problem of pointing from the static/archived version of a feed to the dynamic/subscribable one is a related but different problem, and the one that you ought to be solving. > OTOH, I'm happy to make this relation more declarative. How about: > > - Attribute Value: current > - Description: A URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed > document containing the most recent entries in the feed. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when > this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a > different authority than the current document). Thank you. +1 -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 13:21:47 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETN3z-0002PS-L0 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:21:47 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA21828 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MHGHkN077472; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:16:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MHGHBd077471; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:16:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MHGGii077464 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:16:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8943A3D380; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:16:14 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <26C3E7C1-035D-49B9-9455-A9FBA2615B51@Sun.COM> References: <1D96FDC9-2B92-4AF1-A06A-47541AA3C746@sun.com> <1511F6D0-B114-47D5-A0F4-5E35D5FF168F@mnot.net> <10043842-1113-4290-A89C-A5255DC27EE6@Sun.COM> <3AB94D8C-EFA2-4C33-B73A-FFB77E4DF272@mnot.net> <26C3E7C1-035D-49B9-9455-A9FBA2615B51@Sun.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <9D31490A-2071-4A38-A582-60187C0DF927@mnot.net> Cc: Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:16:12 -0700 To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Great! I'll summarise where they are and do a last call. On 22/10/2005, at 9:52 AM, Tim Bray wrote: > > On Oct 22, 2005, at 8:40 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > >> You seem to be saying that because link/@rel="self" was designed >> for a specific purpose, and even though its definition is quite >> descriptive (its definition *only* says it should be used to link >> to the current document; -11 says nothing about subscription) it >> should be the only way defined to do subscription. >> > > Agreed that the description could be better. What I'm actually > saying is "since we already have a way to do subscription, we don't > need to invent another." Also that the problem of pointing from > the static/archived version of a feed to the dynamic/subscribable > one is a related but different problem, and the one that you ought > to be solving. > > >> OTOH, I'm happy to make this relation more declarative. How about: >> >> - Attribute Value: current >> - Description: A URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed >> document containing the most recent entries in the feed. >> - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. >> - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care >> when this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI >> has a different authority than the current document). >> > > Thank you. +1 -Tim > > > -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 13:26:31 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETN8X-0003eV-Cd for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:26:31 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA22071 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:26:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MHKJR0078192; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:20:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MHKJt7078191; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:20:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MHKJ9m078185 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:20:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A7CE3D380 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:20:16 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <37AD656D-444A-4C37-A3B4-71417168A6C8@mnot.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: New Link Relations -- Last Call Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:20:15 -0700 To: Atom Syntax X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've replaced "subscribe" with "current"; otherwise, these are the same as in the last round. I think they're ready to go -- any more comments? - Attribute Value: previous - Description: A URI that refers to the immediately preceding document in a series of documents. - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a different authority than the current document). Such agents should also take care to detect circular references. - Attribute Value: next - Description: A URI that refers to the immediately following document in a series of documents. - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a different authority than the current document). Such agents should also take care to detect circular references. - Attribute Value: first - Description: A URI that refers to the furthest preceding document in a series of documents. - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a different authority than the current document). Such agents should also take care to detect circular references. - Attribute Value: last - Description: A URI that refers to the furthest following document in a series of documents. - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a different authority than the current document). Such agents should also take care to detect circular references. - Attribute Value: current - Description: A URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed document containing the most recent entries in the feed. - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a different authority than the current document). -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 13:37:03 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETNIl-0007YV-Ip for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:37:03 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA22829 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:36:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MHUDRi080177; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:30:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MHUDXH080175; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:30:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MHUB6L080167 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:30:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Sun, 23 Oct 2005 03:32:14 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 03:30:04 +1000 Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <435A576B.7060904@gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 23/10/05 1:14 AM, "James M Snell" wrote: > The challenge with using alternate to point to files of different types > is that why would someone do (a) when they can already do (b) without > the help of a new extension > > (a) > > > > > (b) > href="http://example.com/file.mp3" /> > href="http://example2.com/file.ogg" /> With (b), how could you ever then provide multiple distinct enclosures for an entry. With (b) you're trying to say that the two sound files are the same thing, just different formats. For example, I might want to provide a movie file with commentary, and another movie file without commentary, and a third movie file showing just the special effects part in slow motion. They are not substitutes for each other. With (a), we know the .mp3 and the .ogg are simply different formats of the same thing. With (b) we don't know either way. > What I want is a way of indicating that a particular resource is > available at multiple locations. I'll use multiple link elements to > indicate that there are multiple formats. And some aggregators will treat that as a basket of different enclosures and try downloading all of them. >> it would be fair to say that any two x:alternate with different @href's but >> equivalent x:md5 are mirrors. That can fit into the model with no other >> modifications :-) >> > I would argue that the x:md5 for all alternates should be the same as > the parent link. > What about this though: Here we have an entry with two enclosures. The first enclosure is the soundtrack, and is available in mp3 from one primary URI and three mirrors, and also available in .ogg from three mirrors, and for the truly desperate also available as a .wav file. The second enclosure is a commentary sound track, but not available in any other formats or from any other mirrors, but there is a Portuguese translation variant if you (really) want. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 13:52:44 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETNXw-000670-C9 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:52:44 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA23392 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:52:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MHmNQr083845; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:48:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MHmNi0083844; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:48:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chilco.textdrive.com (chilco.textdrive.com [207.7.108.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MHmNwV083814 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:48:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: from [192.168.2.180] (83-70-29-35.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net [83.70.29.35]) by chilco.textdrive.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 334DDDA91C; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 17:48:48 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <435A7B59.1020009@dehora.net> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 18:48:09 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James M Snell CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Profile links References: <43593C8C.6060603@gmail.com> <43596CED.2070801@dehora.net> <4359769E.8030802@gmail.com> <435A33E3.5090801@dehora.net> <435A5218.7060805@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <435A5218.7060805@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id NAA23392 James M Snell wrote: > Bill de h=D3ra wrote: >=20 >> Microformats for the most part have a defined structure; this proposal >> isn't providing structure. >> >> =20 >> > For the most part yes. >=20 >>> Regarding the use of a link versus foo:profile, I really have no >>> preference one way or the other. The profile reference should be a >>> dereferencable link to a profile document that describes the profile >>> but, for the most part, clients will likely only rarely ever derefere= nce >>> it (using the href more as an identifier). Strictly speaking, >>> dereferenceable profile links should probably use the atom:link eleme= nt >>> but there is no hard requirement that says a profile element wouldn't >>> also work. >>> =20 >> >> >> Using atom:link strikes me as tag abuse [1]. But that's what >> microformats tend to do (use presentational markup for data). >> >> =20 >> > Agreed. So what's a better solution? Like I said, I really have no > preference one way or the other. (taking off my markup hat) If someone said to me you can check an entry's profile via an atom:link/@rel=3D'profile' I would say 'ok, that's fine' (soon followed b= y 'what should I do if all the other metadata isn't there?'). If it's truly abuse the registrar can trap it and tell you to use something else. The reason to pick a dedicated element instead is if the WG wants to set a precedent on how the format is to be extended (we have multiple points of extension and no guidance as to how to choose between them). Otherwise I think atom:link will be ok. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 14:09:57 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETNoa-00073q-Rh for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:09:57 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA23904 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:09:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MI1w9s086120; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:01:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MI1wpB086119; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:01:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from xproxy.gmail.com (xproxy.gmail.com [66.249.82.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MI1v1H086112 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:01:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eliast@gmail.com) Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id h32so177119wxd for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:01:57 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=hd5lX+bMaznmG8UWL4rel0bjnrCMt8TPaTphSAshRE9l9sxbdPER/kTiQrZfhSxOLoqVZ/SqAJ+p4itaOrFsHwYEcLj5xkqS2oZYtLsNCFNmYlGbMNy82r0qe+YGmg5t1Wsy8DELjJJksI/CyJxTN5F2PRzBjrvsxG+3xA9a3mA= Received: by 10.70.58.7 with SMTP id g7mr66753wxa; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.56.12 with HTTP; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <905f7c910510221101o73b3aae6n957c76f47a7f2d2b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:01:57 -0400 From: Elias Torres To: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Last Call Cc: Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: <37AD656D-444A-4C37-A3B4-71417168A6C8@mnot.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <37AD656D-444A-4C37-A3B4-71417168A6C8@mnot.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9MI1v1H086114 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What's the difference between current and last? Elias On 10/22/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > I've replaced "subscribe" with "current"; otherwise, these are the > same as in the last round. I think they're ready to go -- any more > comments? > > > - Attribute Value: previous > - Description: A URI that refers to the immediately preceding > document in a series of documents. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when > this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a > different authority than the current document). Such agents should > also take care to detect circular references. > > - Attribute Value: next > - Description: A URI that refers to the immediately following > document in a series of documents. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when > this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a > different authority than the current document). Such agents should > also take care to detect circular references. > > - Attribute Value: first > - Description: A URI that refers to the furthest preceding > document in a series of documents. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when > this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a > different authority than the current document). Such agents should > also take care to detect circular references. > > - Attribute Value: last > - Description: A URI that refers to the furthest following > document in a series of documents. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when > this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a > different authority than the current document). Such agents should > also take care to detect circular references. > > - Attribute Value: current > - Description: A URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed > document containing the most recent entries in the feed. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when > this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a > different authority than the current document). > > > -- > Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 14:15:16 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETNtk-0002Ia-38 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:15:16 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA24149 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:15:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MI8Mak087344; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:08:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MI8Mfi087343; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:08:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MI8Msl087337 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:08:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id v1so559284nzb for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:08:22 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=t8q9WGxjq98CDTQxQIyEfYlOLQFaTujGeithgMfORBvn71gHopdjSmwxEKtNapJpYEBn5sOT6iITwJDRAVX3eEb7szoIeCPbmSh6Poz+O5FHIEvCF+bZECrfpoKFO8p4Ew/4si/koZRFo8tvGRlO25KpOrxo5ZQfVNfKAokscms= Received: by 10.36.252.77 with SMTP id z77mr4652442nzh; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 7sm2667417nzo.2005.10.22.11.08.21; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <435A8011.3090903@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:08:17 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Last Call References: <37AD656D-444A-4C37-A3B4-71417168A6C8@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <37AD656D-444A-4C37-A3B4-71417168A6C8@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +1 Mark Nottingham wrote: > > I've replaced "subscribe" with "current"; otherwise, these are the > same as in the last round. I think they're ready to go -- any more > comments? > > > - Attribute Value: previous > - Description: A URI that refers to the immediately preceding > document in a series of documents. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when > this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a > different authority than the current document). Such agents should > also take care to detect circular references. > > - Attribute Value: next > - Description: A URI that refers to the immediately following > document in a series of documents. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when > this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a > different authority than the current document). Such agents should > also take care to detect circular references. > > - Attribute Value: first > - Description: A URI that refers to the furthest preceding document > in a series of documents. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when > this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a > different authority than the current document). Such agents should > also take care to detect circular references. > > - Attribute Value: last > - Description: A URI that refers to the furthest following document > in a series of documents. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when > this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a > different authority than the current document). Such agents should > also take care to detect circular references. > > - Attribute Value: current > - Description: A URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed > document containing the most recent entries in the feed. > - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when > this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a > different authority than the current document). > > > -- > Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 14:36:52 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETOEe-0005w2-Qb for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:36:52 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA24833 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:36:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MIXT1R091896; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:33:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MIXTLk091895; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:33:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MIXSEl091887 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:33:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id v1so561525nzb for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:33:28 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=APKmq6ePxERTCiioKBCleH37eyfBXEpd3YIxgPb1qOSqDmeC+V7wceOyugOYt904peWNiSjJiJ8PEE/r8Ua6bQlwYDgK29HPhcJBudHu8J7d/B+yfzsMgSo5Ap1A3qNP35ln5KJU1hR5PF84h0KcuuvNv6FkhZcFEOjBJbNYt1g= Received: by 10.37.18.10 with SMTP id v10mr1691860nzi; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id p4sm953706nzc.2005.10.22.11.33.27; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <435A85F4.2030507@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:33:24 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Elias Torres CC: Mark Nottingham , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Last Call References: <37AD656D-444A-4C37-A3B4-71417168A6C8@mnot.net> <905f7c910510221101o73b3aae6n957c76f47a7f2d2b@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <905f7c910510221101o73b3aae6n957c76f47a7f2d2b@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "last" has no time component... it merely reflects the last document in a linked list of documents. "current" indicates the document that contains the most recently updated entries... Elias Torres wrote: >What's the difference between current and last? > >Elias > >On 10/22/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > >>I've replaced "subscribe" with "current"; otherwise, these are the >>same as in the last round. I think they're ready to go -- any more >>comments? >> >> >> - Attribute Value: previous >> - Description: A URI that refers to the immediately preceding >>document in a series of documents. >> - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. >> - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when >>this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a >>different authority than the current document). Such agents should >>also take care to detect circular references. >> >> - Attribute Value: next >> - Description: A URI that refers to the immediately following >>document in a series of documents. >> - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. >> - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when >>this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a >>different authority than the current document). Such agents should >>also take care to detect circular references. >> >> - Attribute Value: first >> - Description: A URI that refers to the furthest preceding >>document in a series of documents. >> - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. >> - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when >>this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a >>different authority than the current document). Such agents should >>also take care to detect circular references. >> >> - Attribute Value: last >> - Description: A URI that refers to the furthest following >>document in a series of documents. >> - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. >> - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when >>this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a >>different authority than the current document). Such agents should >>also take care to detect circular references. >> >> - Attribute Value: current >> - Description: A URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed >>document containing the most recent entries in the feed. >> - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. >> - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when >>this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a >>different authority than the current document). >> >> >>-- >>Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ >> >> >> >> > > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 14:37:14 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETOF0-00063v-Bk for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:37:14 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA24848 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:37:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MITdX0091235; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:29:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MITdcp091234; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:29:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MITcFw091228 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:29:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2A263D38A; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:29:37 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <905f7c910510221101o73b3aae6n957c76f47a7f2d2b@mail.gmail.com> References: <37AD656D-444A-4C37-A3B4-71417168A6C8@mnot.net> <905f7c910510221101o73b3aae6n957c76f47a7f2d2b@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <2F731F0D-51CF-479B-A4B3-452451C8A359@mnot.net> Cc: Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Last Call Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:29:32 -0700 To: Elias Torres X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When you dereference "current", you'll always get a feed document that contains the most recent entries in the feed. There's effectively a guarantee that the latest entries will be there. When you dereference "last", you'll get a feed document containing the furthest following document in a set of documents. The nature of the set and its members is undefined -- it could be the last feed document, but it could also be the last entry document, and the set could be search results, archives, or anything else. There isn't a guarantee it'll always have the latest entries in it. On 22/10/2005, at 11:01 AM, Elias Torres wrote: > What's the difference between current and last? > > Elias > > On 10/22/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> >> I've replaced "subscribe" with "current"; otherwise, these are the >> same as in the last round. I think they're ready to go -- any more >> comments? >> >> >> - Attribute Value: previous >> - Description: A URI that refers to the immediately preceding >> document in a series of documents. >> - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. >> - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when >> this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a >> different authority than the current document). Such agents should >> also take care to detect circular references. >> >> - Attribute Value: next >> - Description: A URI that refers to the immediately following >> document in a series of documents. >> - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. >> - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when >> this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a >> different authority than the current document). Such agents should >> also take care to detect circular references. >> >> - Attribute Value: first >> - Description: A URI that refers to the furthest preceding >> document in a series of documents. >> - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. >> - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when >> this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a >> different authority than the current document). Such agents should >> also take care to detect circular references. >> >> - Attribute Value: last >> - Description: A URI that refers to the furthest following >> document in a series of documents. >> - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. >> - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when >> this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a >> different authority than the current document). Such agents should >> also take care to detect circular references. >> >> - Attribute Value: current >> - Description: A URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed >> document containing the most recent entries in the feed. >> - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. >> - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when >> this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a >> different authority than the current document). >> >> >> -- >> Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ >> >> >> > > -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 15:01:38 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETOcb-0002Wz-CJ for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:01:38 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA25541 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:01:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MIuOZt095880; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:56:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MIuOM4095879; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:56:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from xproxy.gmail.com (xproxy.gmail.com [66.249.82.201]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MIuNsX095865 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:56:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i28so713789wxd for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:56:23 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=pZ/KrJy2FRqXWxolR7jj0tKZtwySuPkRV9KHcl/LK9z7GpXFio0gSaLJVop9wMKK9sVB0ojeeAXDU8q3IXIjlfpGbzlrCQq1ZFyzxVjEWKPrOCs0MMdOUnK0djp+/1N8wcJSmPcGcZCXCMynuYWxhQrcXoSVG8bKBKiySHcJdOY= Received: by 10.70.46.18 with SMTP id t18mr2306287wxt; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id i13sm8927197wxd.2005.10.22.11.56.22; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <435A8B53.5040600@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:56:19 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Profile links References: <43593C8C.6060603@gmail.com> <43596CED.2070801@dehora.net> <4359769E.8030802@gmail.com> <435A33E3.5090801@dehora.net> <435A5218.7060805@gmail.com> <435A7B59.1020009@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: <435A7B59.1020009@dehora.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id PAA25541 Bill de h=D3ra wrote: > >(taking off my markup hat) > >If someone said to me you can check an entry's profile via an >atom:link/@rel=3D'profile' I would say 'ok, that's fine' (soon followed = by >'what should I do if all the other metadata isn't there?'). If it's >truly abuse the registrar can trap it and tell you to use something else. > >The reason to pick a dedicated element instead is if the WG wants to set >a precedent on how the format is to be extended (we have multiple points >of extension and no guidance as to how to choose between them). >Otherwise I think atom:link will be ok. > >cheers >Bill > > =20 > Hmm.. the more I think about this and the more we discuss it, the less I=20 think I like link[rel=3D"profile"]. While the URI of the profile=20 reference should be dereferenceable, most of the time the profile value=20 is going to be used as an identifier.=20 http://example.com/profiles/weblog http://example.com/profiles/podcast This gets the job done. simple, easy, lightweight.=20 - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 15:13:40 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETOoF-0000KL-Ns for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:13:40 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA25885 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:13:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MJ4rwX097044; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:04:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MJ4rw7097043; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:04:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from xproxy.gmail.com (xproxy.gmail.com [66.249.82.203]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MJ4olp097020 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:04:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eliast@gmail.com) Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id h32so178818wxd for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:04:45 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=oQFmVAOWsWG6fo6kzsId7DnVJQKhhIwdEJDvG0aLBQalzKAaeMyjOnwdCa2eJvxWhXK5YeDKUmUFMKkDfrPkP5H52lqX9ROgDoHjKaNoo5E352U8GFoddTpgVuA1WQADZUWZWNGEB1gksZThqKa+506ajjrj9LZFKKYwbBcKvfE= Received: by 10.70.55.19 with SMTP id d19mr67165wxa; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.56.12 with HTTP; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <905f7c910510221204h4a7e9d82sad3dfbb47c3c1944@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:04:45 -0400 From: Elias Torres To: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Last Call Cc: Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: <2F731F0D-51CF-479B-A4B3-452451C8A359@mnot.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <37AD656D-444A-4C37-A3B4-71417168A6C8@mnot.net> <905f7c910510221101o73b3aae6n957c76f47a7f2d2b@mail.gmail.com> <2F731F0D-51CF-479B-A4B3-452451C8A359@mnot.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9MJ4plp097034 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit cool. +1 then. On 10/22/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > When you dereference "current", you'll always get a feed document > that contains the most recent entries in the feed. There's > effectively a guarantee that the latest entries will be there. > > When you dereference "last", you'll get a feed document containing > the furthest following document in a set of documents. The nature of > the set and its members is undefined -- it could be the last feed > document, but it could also be the last entry document, and the set > could be search results, archives, or anything else. There isn't a > guarantee it'll always have the latest entries in it. > > > On 22/10/2005, at 11:01 AM, Elias Torres wrote: > > > What's the difference between current and last? > > > > Elias > > > > On 10/22/05, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > > >> > >> I've replaced "subscribe" with "current"; otherwise, these are the > >> same as in the last round. I think they're ready to go -- any more > >> comments? > >> > >> > >> - Attribute Value: previous > >> - Description: A URI that refers to the immediately preceding > >> document in a series of documents. > >> - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > >> - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when > >> this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a > >> different authority than the current document). Such agents should > >> also take care to detect circular references. > >> > >> - Attribute Value: next > >> - Description: A URI that refers to the immediately following > >> document in a series of documents. > >> - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > >> - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when > >> this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a > >> different authority than the current document). Such agents should > >> also take care to detect circular references. > >> > >> - Attribute Value: first > >> - Description: A URI that refers to the furthest preceding > >> document in a series of documents. > >> - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > >> - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when > >> this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a > >> different authority than the current document). Such agents should > >> also take care to detect circular references. > >> > >> - Attribute Value: last > >> - Description: A URI that refers to the furthest following > >> document in a series of documents. > >> - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > >> - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when > >> this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a > >> different authority than the current document). Such agents should > >> also take care to detect circular references. > >> > >> - Attribute Value: current > >> - Description: A URI that, when dereferenced, returns a feed > >> document containing the most recent entries in the feed. > >> - Expected display characteristics: Undefined. > >> - Security considerations: Automated agents should take care when > >> this relation crosses administrative domains (e.g., the URI has a > >> different authority than the current document). > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > -- > Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 15:34:26 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETP8M-0003NT-OR for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:34:26 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA26313 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:34:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MJSv4e002922; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:28:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MJSvvx002921; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:28:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav20.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.92]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MJSv5n002883 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:28:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:28:52 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV20.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 19:28:52 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: <43593C8C.6060603@gmail.com> <43596CED.2070801@dehora.net> <4359769E.8030802@gmail.com> <435A33E3.5090801@dehora.net> <435A5218.7060805@gmail.com> <435A7B59.1020009@dehora.net> <435A8B53.5040600@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Profile links Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 20:28:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Oct 2005 19:28:52.0428 (UTC) FILETIME=[D5C440C0:01C5D73E] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James M Snell wrote: > Hmm.. the more I think about this and the more we discuss it, the less I > think I like link[rel="profile"]. While the URI of the profile reference > should be dereferenceable, most of the time the profile value is going to > be used as an identifier. > > http://example.com/profiles/weblog > http://example.com/profiles/podcast > I agree about not using link, but shouldn't the URI be in an attribute rather than as content. Something like this: Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 15:34:27 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETP8N-0003Nf-3Y for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:34:27 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA26316 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:34:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MIdFUG093024; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:39:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MIdFsc093023; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:39:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9MIdDG0092997 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:39:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 22 Oct 2005 18:39:07 -0000 Received: from xdsl-87-78-45-14.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [87.78.45.14] by mail.gmx.net (mp016) with SMTP; 22 Oct 2005 20:39:07 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 20:39:27 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Last Call Message-ID: <20051022183927.GA6534@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <37AD656D-444A-4C37-A3B4-71417168A6C8@mnot.net> <905f7c910510221101o73b3aae6n957c76f47a7f2d2b@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <905f7c910510221101o73b3aae6n957c76f47a7f2d2b@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id PAA26316 * Elias Torres [2005-10-22 20:10]: > What's the difference between current and last? If I=E2=80=99ve followed the discussion correctly: =E2=80=9Ccurrent=E2=80= =9D is live and something you might subscribe to. =E2=80=9Clast=E2=80=9D may or may not b= e static. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 15:50:13 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETPNd-0002bb-9M for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:50:13 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA26741 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:50:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MJinP2013836; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:44:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MJinIG013834; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:44:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from xproxy.gmail.com (xproxy.gmail.com [66.249.82.200]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MJinfA013814 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:44:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id s9so34856wxc for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:44:45 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=DkUA7CyXCcN5mpSpdRJbCX7zz4gW+Ak6dPpwK91s/AkZemao6/k+uQeYPq8XjeaW4pCjrNtQ+x8K+N2VYwAHRcWhy67k/69jrU7DuG0JY7YWlO/rZ+73Xqq1BYCGXQ8Ek738CRN21Blel3RWFpXxdH4jLsg+jYRd0+EU/AdZ71M= Received: by 10.70.29.5 with SMTP id c5mr2565274wxc; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id i35sm14660300wxd.2005.10.22.12.44.44; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:44:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <435A96A8.2030000@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:44:40 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Holderness CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Profile links References: <43593C8C.6060603@gmail.com> <43596CED.2070801@dehora.net> <4359769E.8030802@gmail.com> <435A33E3.5090801@dehora.net> <435A5218.7060805@gmail.com> <435A7B59.1020009@dehora.net> <435A8B53.5040600@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Holderness wrote: > > James M Snell wrote: > >> Hmm.. the more I think about this and the more we discuss it, the >> less I think I like link[rel="profile"]. While the URI of the >> profile reference should be dereferenceable, most of the time the >> profile value is going to be used as an identifier. >> >> http://example.com/profiles/weblog >> http://example.com/profiles/podcast >> > > > I agree about not using link, but shouldn't the URI be in an attribute > rather than as content. Something like this: > > > > > > Works for me. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 16:03:29 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETPaT-0001K3-8M for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 16:03:29 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA27228 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 16:03:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MJx3ih024718; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:59:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MJx3pe024717; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:59:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chilco.textdrive.com (chilco.textdrive.com [207.7.108.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MJx21P024642 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:59:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: from [192.168.2.180] (83-70-29-35.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net [83.70.29.35]) by chilco.textdrive.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58BCCDA893 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 19:59:28 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <435A99F9.8010008@dehora.net> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 20:58:49 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Profile links References: <43593C8C.6060603@gmail.com> <43596CED.2070801@dehora.net> <4359769E.8030802@gmail.com> <435A33E3.5090801@dehora.net> <435A5218.7060805@gmail.com> <435A7B59.1020009@dehora.net> <435A8B53.5040600@gmail.com> <435A96A8.2030000@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <435A96A8.2030000@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James M Snell wrote: > > James Holderness wrote: > >> >> James M Snell wrote: >> >>> Hmm.. the more I think about this and the more we discuss it, the >>> less I think I like link[rel="profile"]. While the URI of the >>> profile reference should be dereferenceable, most of the time the >>> profile value is going to be used as an identifier. >>> >>> http://example.com/profiles/weblog >>> http://example.com/profiles/podcast >>> >> >> >> >> I agree about not using link, but shouldn't the URI be in an attribute >> rather than as content. Something like this: >> >> >> >> >> >> > Works for me. 'href's can traditionally be dereferenced, no big deal - the upside is the markup structure does gives you scope to extend later. 'ref' - ? cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 16:24:49 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETPv7-0004Yn-N2 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 16:24:49 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA27774 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 16:24:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MKIDJu033315; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:18:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MKIDcV033314; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:18:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from xproxy.gmail.com (xproxy.gmail.com [66.249.82.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MKICK7033296 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:18:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i30so61287wxd for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:18:07 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=h5snh2+nPyFZPveyyPBxJaqbqAmU3O9vf2morA7s5NL5GGpyRvxzSL7Ps2FO0xhfFjPjJ6LbHIKvYfJ5Lemru3o8MxD5beMCVs4xpwzeCmQ4rz/lCW3C7HGN6cndtSkmBeUEWxmqLOJoREVpG+/8IJfFijDP1fDj3ENpd/k9MUs= Received: by 10.70.54.3 with SMTP id c3mr2589586wxa; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:18:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id i37sm11092716wxd.2005.10.22.13.18.06; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:18:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <435A9E7B.60605@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:18:03 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Profile links References: <43593C8C.6060603@gmail.com> <43596CED.2070801@dehora.net> <4359769E.8030802@gmail.com> <435A33E3.5090801@dehora.net> <435A5218.7060805@gmail.com> <435A7B59.1020009@dehora.net> <435A8B53.5040600@gmail.com> <435A96A8.2030000@gmail.com> <435A99F9.8010008@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: <435A99F9.8010008@dehora.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id QAA27774 Ok, works very well I think.=20 profileElement =3D element x:profile { attribute ref ( URI ), undefinedContent } Now for some processing questions... 1. Can a profile element appear in an atom:feed/atom:source? If so,=20 what does it mean? I think it should with the caveat that the profile=20 attribute should only impact the feed and should not reflect on the=20 individual entries within that feed. 2. Can multiple profile elements be specified? I think it should. That=20 way we can mark an entry, for instance, as being both a blog entry and a=20 podcast. 3. What standard profiles should we consider? * Weblog (for atom:feed).. BlogEntry (for atom:entry) * Wiki (for atom:feed).. WikiPage (for atom:entry) * Podcast * Archive * Search Results * what else? For each of the profiles, we need to specify what it means to=20 conform to that profile 4. How can we foster the community development and adoption of profiles? - James Bill de h=D3ra wrote: >'href's can traditionally be dereferenced, no big deal - the upside is >the markup structure does gives you scope to extend later. > >'ref' - ? > >cheers >Bill > > > > =20 > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 16:51:24 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETQKq-0002WQ-G8 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 16:51:24 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA28805 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 16:51:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MKjJce038908; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:45:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9MKjJ4n038907; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:45:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.203]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9MKjItZ038900 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:45:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i28so481386nzi for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:45:18 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=QjtXmf5fLBk1eJYhVqTCreskPWGy7DVWaH1w8LxWhocCNCjNT9JDdFKNe/LMo8+jtOh6CjlnYsxQ8rbvEjOU5lam24NFxKoe2L/AkSEEjirEdt+2ESxsJm6RIxIS3c6XPwWIVfWnUhLfTXBvMaSqDeIaOvdOaVQKYpNTcWMiCqk= Received: by 10.36.140.5 with SMTP id n5mr4263125nzd; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.12.27 with HTTP; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c50510221345sae68c79u8eae457d58d23734@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 16:45:18 -0400 From: Robert Sayre To: James M Snell Subject: Re: Profile links Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= , Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: <435A9E7B.60605@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <43593C8C.6060603@gmail.com> <4359769E.8030802@gmail.com> <435A33E3.5090801@dehora.net> <435A5218.7060805@gmail.com> <435A7B59.1020009@dehora.net> <435A8B53.5040600@gmail.com> <435A96A8.2030000@gmail.com> <435A99F9.8010008@dehora.net> <435A9E7B.60605@gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9MKjItZ038902 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/22/05, James M Snell wrote: > > Ok, works very well I think. ref? Can we please ditch the pseudo-RDF garbage? Leave an idea alone for two seconds... Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 22 23:13:53 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETWIz-0006tY-B6 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 23:13:53 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA11242 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 23:13:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9N34nu6015011; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 20:04:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9N34ng5015010; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 20:04:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.200]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9N34mRk015003 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 20:04:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id v1so597934nzb for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 20:04:48 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=dmtpp5VgwamZYrgH9VnQI8BsM1plMpCFr9HNOpkIArTc69KfzTbSefs1MsNEU8MKNMcamW+GBtaS+CfuKwSe+LNLB1sSuEwyLGRKZxpl5m+nCHLOKCcKklfBj9rEe1zrFVWymyevBMcN3pOqsOcDu4qwioRZ2QKtRBnxjvDElkA= Received: by 10.36.252.53 with SMTP id z53mr2447501nzh; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 20:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 38sm2784721nza.2005.10.22.20.04.47; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 20:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <435AFDCB.6050608@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 20:04:43 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Sayre CC: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Profile links References: <43593C8C.6060603@gmail.com> <4359769E.8030802@gmail.com> <435A33E3.5090801@dehora.net> <435A5218.7060805@gmail.com> <435A7B59.1020009@dehora.net> <435A8B53.5040600@gmail.com> <435A96A8.2030000@gmail.com> <435A99F9.8010008@dehora.net> <435A9E7B.60605@gmail.com> <68fba5c50510221345sae68c79u8eae457d58d23734@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <68fba5c50510221345sae68c79u8eae457d58d23734@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert: Did you have to get special training to be so grumpy? Or does it just come naturally? I actually meant to use href, but after reading the other note, I had ref stuck in my head and didn't catch my error. What I wanted to say was profileElement = element x:profile { attribute href ( URI ), undefinedContent } - James Robert Sayre wrote: >On 10/22/05, James M Snell wrote: > > >>Ok, works very well I think. >> >> > >ref? Can we please ditch the pseudo-RDF garbage? Leave an idea alone >for two seconds... > >Robert Sayre > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 23 16:14:15 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETmER-00080Q-7s for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:14:15 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA23192 for ; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:14:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9NK4IMH063879; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 13:04:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9NK4IDG063877; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 13:04:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ptb-relay03.plus.net (ptb-relay03.plus.net [212.159.14.214]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9NK4Hsv063856 for ; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 13:04:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pmrobinson@gmx.net) Received: from [80.229.20.190] (helo=[192.168.0.8]) by ptb-relay03.plus.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1ETm4f-0006i2-E4 for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 21:04:09 +0100 To: atom-syntax@imc.org (Atom Syntax) In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? From: pmrobinson@gmx.net (Peter Robinson) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 21:04:10 +0100 Message-ID: <1h4wfco.1j3ye6k15kun7zM%pmrobinson@gmx.net> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.7 (Mac OS X version 10.3.9) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Having not spoken up so far, I'd like add my 2c. My atom feeds are all dynamic OpenSearch-style search results. By default they also happen to be traditional 'incremental' blog-style feeds. Instead of static archives, I have dynamic page=N sliding windows. I'd like to be able to include machine-interpretable 'prev'/'next' links so that a user agent that wants to can reconstruct a complete (logical) feed whether that means a 'history' or just the current snapshot of results (and at a single instant in time it will get the same set of entries in either case). I'd also like to be able to include a machine-interpretable rel=subscribe link since in general the url I have to put in rel=self is not the optimal link for subscription. Mark Nottingham wrote: > - Attribute Value: previous > - Attribute Value: next > - Attribute Value: first > - Attribute Value: last With regret I am -1 to those since I cannot use them consistently (with those definitions) from 'page 1' of my feeds depending whether I have my OpenSearch hat on or my incremental feed hat. I need a 'pure paging' definition of those relations that can also be used to reconstruct feed history as a side-effect in the special case where my feeds happen to be 'incremental'. > - Attribute Value: subscribe > - Description: A URI that refers to a feed document containing a > set of the most recent entries in the feed. This URI is intended to > be subscribed to to keep abreast of recent changes in the feed. When > different from the URI of the document where it occurs, it indicates > that its value should be used for this purpose in place of the > current document's URI. +1 I am happy with that wording, though it may have been improved later in the thread. Whatever may have been the original intention, the Atom spec is very clear that rel=self is very different from any possible rel=subscribe. Regards, Peter -- Peter Robinson Concerts, sport and theatre tickets From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 23 16:14:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETmEU-00080h-UW for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:14:19 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA23199 for ; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:14:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9NK4Isn063880; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 13:04:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9NK4IeY063878; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 13:04:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ptb-relay03.plus.net (ptb-relay03.plus.net [212.159.14.214]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9NK4HLQ063857 for ; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 13:04:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pmrobinson@gmx.net) Received: from [80.229.20.190] (helo=[192.168.0.8]) by ptb-relay03.plus.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1ETm4g-0006i2-L1 for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 21:04:10 +0100 To: atom-syntax@imc.org (Atom Syntax) In-Reply-To: <37AD656D-444A-4C37-A3B4-71417168A6C8@mnot.net> Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Last Call From: pmrobinson@gmx.net (Peter Robinson) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 21:04:11 +0100 Message-ID: <1h4wk2l.wn71l8yflbweM%pmrobinson@gmx.net> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.7 (Mac OS X version 10.3.9) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Mark Nottingham wrote: > I've replaced "subscribe" with "current"; otherwise, these are the > same as in the last round. I think they're ready to go -- any more > comments? I prefer 'subscribe' because it better describes the meaning and intention behind the link, but I can live with 'current' if that is the consensus. I am also worried that this is being pushed through too quickly. > - Attribute Value: previous > - Description: A URI that refers to the immediately preceding > document in a series of documents. > - Attribute Value: next > - Attribute Value: first > - Attribute Value: last > - Description: [consequent descriptions] OpenSearch uses 'next' to go from page=1 to page=2. The natural paging setup for an inremental feed that is also an OpenSearch results feed is to have rel=current (aka rel=subscribe) point to the first page of results (i.e. page=1). Is it the intention that history reconstruction uses 'next' links to go back into the past? If so I think that must be made much more explicit in the descriptions, since it is not the natural interpretation if you come at this purely from the standpoint of blog history. On the other hand, if that is *not* the intention then paging for history and paging for OpenSearch will be incompatible. Regards, Peter -- Peter Robinson Concerts, sport and theatre tickets From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 23 17:40:05 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETnZU-0008Jb-MI for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:40:04 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA26159 for ; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:39:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9NLYc6m071926; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:34:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9NLYceC071924; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:34:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9NLYaOH071918 for ; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:34:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (adsl-67-119-69-243.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [67.119.69.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBEA43D380; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:34:35 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <1h4wk2l.wn71l8yflbweM%pmrobinson@gmx.net> References: <1h4wk2l.wn71l8yflbweM%pmrobinson@gmx.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org (Atom Syntax) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Last Call Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:34:33 -0700 To: Peter Robinson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter, On 23/10/2005, at 1:04 PM, Peter Robinson wrote: > > I prefer 'subscribe' because it better describes the meaning and > intention behind the link, but I can live with 'current' if that is > the > consensus. Well, Tim seemed to have a pretty strong -1 on 'subscribe', whereas you say you can live with 'current'. So, at this point it looks like 'current', unless other people come forward. I flirted with "recent" briefly; anybody strongly like that one? > I am also worried that this is being pushed through too > quickly. I appreciate that, but it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem; we won't get all of the implementation experience until it's defined and widely deployed. Most of the problems that people have postulated with these extensions have to do with conflicts with future extensions, which by their nature are hard to accommodate. Or, they are matters of style or just judgement calls; we'll never make everybody happy on those issues, and waiting won't help. > OpenSearch uses 'next' to go from page=1 to page=2. The natural > paging > setup for an inremental feed that is also an OpenSearch results > feed is > to have rel=current (aka rel=subscribe) point to the first page of > results (i.e. page=1). > > Is it the intention that history reconstruction uses 'next' links > to go > back into the past? > > If so I think that must be made much more explicit in the > descriptions, > since it is not the natural interpretation if you come at this purely > from the standpoint of blog history. > > On the other hand, if that is *not* the intention then paging for > history and paging for OpenSearch will be incompatible. Right now, the plan forward seems to be that 'next' et al will be purposefully generic; i.e., they won't mean much until used in conjunction with another extension (in my case, fh:incremental). My plan for feed history is to recommend people walk both 'previous' and 'next' from the subscription feed, so that it doesn't matter which "way" the feed goes. Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 23 18:55:52 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETokp-0004vL-P1 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 18:55:52 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA29205 for ; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 18:55:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9NMnNvM077895; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:49:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9NMnMGs077892; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:49:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9NMnLQH077876 for ; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:49:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i28so562737nzi for ; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:49:21 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=cD2GzEWwqW7/afcVPREQuxKNph7Z1l9Kh4TSNBN5UQQpLo2HwsPs/FcBwB9JYxDvbCxz0QukK2t9oBd2OoJ9ZnXoTPIoLD1H6TlzfEF9h/P6PgQs2DgUdtyPOsoI7j/AephVllPKXiv/N8L9/Eaf9tzyE7AgRAYaiztybds0SIk= Received: by 10.36.77.16 with SMTP id z16mr5291507nza; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.12.27 with HTTP; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <68fba5c50510231549s41e82a31j1a48316c6e576bba@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 18:49:21 -0400 From: Robert Sayre To: Peter Robinson Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? Cc: Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: <1h4wfco.1j3ye6k15kun7zM%pmrobinson@gmx.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <1h4wfco.1j3ye6k15kun7zM%pmrobinson@gmx.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9NMnMQH077879 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/23/05, Peter Robinson wrote: > I'd like to be able to include machine-interpretable 'prev'/'next' links > so that a user agent that wants to can reconstruct a complete (logical) > feed whether that means a 'history' or just the current snapshot of > results (and at a single instant in time it will get the same set of > entries in either case). I don't see how Mark's definitions prevent this. +1 to all of them. For one thing, I have hard time imagining how the proposed definitions could ever be *wrong*. Robert Sayre From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 23 20:02:54 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETpni-0005xP-1B for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:02:54 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA02414 for ; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:02:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9NNu7cL083509; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:56:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9NNu7Op083508; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:56:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav5.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.77]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9NNu7eg083501 for ; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:56:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:56:04 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV5.phx.gbl with DAV; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 23:56:04 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: <37AD656D-444A-4C37-A3B4-71417168A6C8@mnot.net> Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Last Call Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 00:56:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Oct 2005 23:56:04.0335 (UTC) FILETIME=[53F0DFF0:01C5D82D] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Nottingham wrote: > I've replaced "subscribe" with "current"; otherwise, these are the > same as in the last round. I think they're ready to go -- any more > comments? +1 on everything From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 23 20:53:01 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETqaC-0000bH-Uk for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:53:00 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA04029 for ; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:52:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9O0k5sx087170; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:46:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9O0k5O9087169; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:46:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav13.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.85]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9O0k5tA087156 for ; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:46:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:45:59 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV13.phx.gbl with DAV; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 00:45:59 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: <43593C8C.6060603@gmail.com> <43596CED.2070801@dehora.net> <4359769E.8030802@gmail.com> <435A33E3.5090801@dehora.net> <435A5218.7060805@gmail.com> <435A7B59.1020009@dehora.net> <435A8B53.5040600@gmail.com> <435A96A8.2030000@gmail.com> <435A99F9.8010008@dehora.net> <435A9E7B.60605@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Profile links Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 01:45:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Oct 2005 00:45:59.0916 (UTC) FILETIME=[4D7242C0:01C5D834] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James M Snell wrote: > 1. Can a profile element appear in an atom:feed/atom:source? If so, what > does it mean? I think it should with the caveat that the profile attribute > should only impact the feed and should not reflect on the individual > entries within that feed. I can't see any particular use for atom:source myself, but I would definately want profile support at the feed level. As an aggregator I want to be able to display a custom view for a particular feed based on what it contains (e.g. slideshow view if it's a flickr feed - all images). It would be difficult to do something like that with only entry level profiles. In fact, most of the profiles that are of interest to me are feed based (see question 3 below). I hope we're still talking about the same thing here and I haven't completely misinterpreted what you're proposing. > 2. Can multiple profile elements be specified? I think it should. That > way we can mark an entry, for instance, as being both a blog entry and a > podcast. I'm not sure about this but when in doubt I think it'd be best leaving the option open (i.e. allow multiple). > 3. What standard profiles should we consider? Some of the ones I'd be interested in: * Image feed (flickr.com) * Calendar feed (eventful.com) * Top N list * Wish list > For each of the profiles, we need to specify what it means to conform > to that profile I'm not sure how much of this we should be trying to do ourselves. See question 4. > 4. How can we foster the community development and adoption of profiles? For many of these profiles you could probably come up with one or two sites which are obvious leaders in the field (for example flickr.com for image feeds). If you can introduce them to the concept of a profile, but let them decide on what is required to conform to that profile, you're probably a whole lot more likely to get their support. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Oct 23 23:35:23 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETt7K-0005cK-GG for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 23:35:23 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA10337 for ; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 23:35:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9O3RV0m001448; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:27:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9O3RV4t001447; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:27:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9O3RTTQ001435 for ; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:27:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 24 Oct 2005 03:27:23 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-254-34.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.254.34] by mail.gmx.net (mp031) with SMTP; 24 Oct 2005 05:27:23 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 05:27:44 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Last Call Message-ID: <20051024032744.GA14505@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <1h4wk2l.wn71l8yflbweM%pmrobinson@gmx.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id XAA10337 * Mark Nottingham [2005-10-23 23:40]: > Well, Tim seemed to have a pretty strong -1 on 'subscribe', > whereas you say you can live with 'current'. So, at this point > it looks like 'current', unless other people come forward. I > flirted with "recent" briefly; anybody strongly like that one? I like =E2=80=9Crecent=E2=80=9D better than =E2=80=9Ccurrent,=E2=80=9D an= d I agree with Tim on =E2=80=9Csubscribe.=E2=80=9D But neither of the alternatives seems like a= great fit. I thought about it for a while and came up with =E2=80=9Clive.=E2=80=9D I= t would seem to me that it describes the link target with a qualtatively stronger assertion than either =E2=80=9Ccurrent=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Crece= nt,=E2=80=9D and that it is more likely to intuitively convey what it=E2=80=99s supposed to mean, ie =E2=80=9Cif you want to subscribe to something, this link is the best candidate.=E2=80=9D But ultimately I=E2=80=99m okay with any of the non-=E2=80=9Csubscribe=E2= =80=9D propositions. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 03:42:13 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETwyD-0000L8-63 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 03:42:13 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA22480 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 03:41:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9O7V8pn022573; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 00:31:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9O7V8G9022572; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 00:31:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf00.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.67]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9O7V7m8022533 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 00:31:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from monmail.cegetel.net (217-19-192-113.dti.cegetel.net [217.19.192.113]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with SMTP id CEF561A4327; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:30:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 194.250.147.107 (SquirrelMail authenticated user t.broyer@cegetel.net) by monmail.cegetel.net with HTTP; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:31:00 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <1171.194.250.147.107.1130139060.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> In-Reply-To: <43597596.3000900@gmail.com> References: <3895.194.250.147.107.1129907383.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> <43590C89.70505@gmail.com> <43591C20.6090808@cegetel.net> <43591D90.9050508@gmail.com> <43592901.7030407@cegetel.net> <43592A63.1010305@gmail.com> <43592C4B.3080302@cegetel.net> <43595C39.2080106@cegetel.net> <66D098C9-6DE8-472D-928A-3A0B5065D052@mnot.net> <43597596.3000900@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:31:00 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? From: "Thomas Broyer" To: "James M Snell" Cc: "Mark Nottingham" , "Atom Syntax" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit James M Snell wrote: > I'm perfectly happy with leaving previous and next free of any semantics > right now and letting the market sort things out. If more specific link > relations prove to be necessary, then so be it, define the more specific > link relations. If the market can get by with generic links + some kind > of extra flag (e.g. incremental=true, etc) then great. if your case (b) > dies off... that's great too. The point is, let's not over specify this > thing right now; leave it open enough for the market to figure out how > to use it. What are the use cases right now? - Mark's proposed feed state reconstruction - OpenSearch result feeds chunking This is just "paging". What is it also allowing? - publish any non-incremental (i.e. non time-based, like OpenSearch results) feeds chunked in small documents (Top 50 in 5 pages of 10 entries) What is it not covering? - linking between snapshots of non-incremental feeds (last week's Top 50, OpenSearch result of previous query) - linking between different "sites" (i.e. webrings) This has not yet proven to be really needed (e.g. the Top 50 web site I saw didn't provide archives of previous rankings). When there'll be such a need, then we'll define a new link relation (I already proposed "archives"/"history" to link to a "table of contents" feed allowing navigation to e.g. snapshots of non-incremental feeds; another link relation for the "webring" use case if it proves to be needed one day). -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 04:10:16 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETxPM-0008DH-0L for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 04:10:16 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA23954 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 04:10:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9O81s2u025285; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 01:01:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9O81sWw025284; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 01:01:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf00.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.67]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9O81qhd025266 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 01:01:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from monmail.cegetel.net (217-19-192-113.dti.cegetel.net [217.19.192.113]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with SMTP id E4E931A43A3; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:01:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 194.250.147.107 (SquirrelMail authenticated user t.broyer@cegetel.net) by monmail.cegetel.net with HTTP; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:01:46 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <1180.194.250.147.107.1130140906.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> In-Reply-To: References: <3895.194.250.147.107.1129907383.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> <43590C89.70505@gmail.com> <43591C20.6090808@cegetel.net> <43591D90.9050508@gmail.com> <43592901.7030407@cegetel.net> <43592A63.1010305@gmail.com> <43592C4B.3080302@cegetel.net> <43595C39.2080106@cegetel.net> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:01:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? From: "Thomas Broyer" To: "James Holderness" Cc: "Atom Syntax" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit James Holderness wrote: > > Thomas Broyer wrote: >> As I already explained, paging is orthogonal to the incremental nature >> of a feed. An incremental feed will be chunked as explained in Mark's >> current Feed History draft (just use an atom:link[@rel="previous"] >> instead of the fh:prev extension element) and a non-incremental feed as >> described in the OpenSearch result 1.1 draft. > > I beg to differ. I think the incremental state of a feed is very relevant > to paging. If the aggregator does not know that a feed is non-incremental > it will not be able to process the feed document in a meaningful manner. Yes, but that's orthogonal to paging. > And when I say non-incremental I mean something like a "Top 10" list where > the entries in the feed document are a complete replacement for any > entries that the aggregator may have previously received from that feed. I have the same definition. >> What's the difference between a search feed and a non-incremental feed? >> Aren't search feeds one facet of non-incremental feeds? > > Not necessarily, no. A search feed could quite easily be implemented as an > incremental feed. This is the most sensible approach since it would allow > the feed to be viewed in all existing aggregators without requiring a > special knowledge of non-incremental feeds. > > The initial feed document consists of all known results at the time the > search is initiated. As new results are discovered over time, the feed can > be updated by adding new entries to the top of the feed in much the same > way that new entries would be added to the top of a blogging feed. In > fact, if you do a search with something like feedster, this is exactly the > sort of feed you will get back. You're describing the PubSub behaviour, which is not IMO a "search engine" but an aggregator with filtering capabilities. PubSub filters are quite similar to the "category feeds" you see sometimes: "I don't want the whole blog entries, just the ones belonging to that category, or tagged with that word". With PubSub, you say "I don't want the whole web entries, just the one matching that filter". You're not describing a "search feed" (or maybe more a search *result* feed, like OpenSearch result feeds) but a "filtered aggregate feed" (as published by PubSub). >> However, an incremental feed could take advantage of differentiating >> between paging and "archive linking": if linking to archives uses an >> atom:link[@rel="archives"] (or call it "history" if you prefer) to point >> at an incremental feed where each entry describes an archived set of >> entries (see [1] for a more detailed example); such a feed has the >> advantage of paging that it allows direct access to a specific point of >> time inside the feed "pages". Each "archived set of entries" could for >> example cover one or two week, so a user could navigate through the >> "feed state" or "feed history" not only by going from pages to pages but >> also by accessing archived chunks via an "index" or "table of contents". > > This is all very interesting, but not possible without more link > extensions which don't exist yet. Wait a bit and I'll propose them for registration. When they'll exist, what would become your argument? > With what we have so far we can do incremental feed archives; we can do at > least some form of searching; we can do non-incremental feeds (of the "Top > 10" variety) with history. I think that's a good start. But we also want paged non-incremental feeds (OpenSearch result feeds), while "non-incremental feeds with history" have not yet proven to be needed. You're trying to describe "incremental feed paging" and "navigation through non-incremental feed snapshots" with the same link relation. When people will want "non-incremental feed paging" (and this is already a need), we'll have two link relations related to paging (for incremental and non-incremental feeds) and one that can also be used to navigate into non-incremental feeds history. Here's a chunked incremental feed (each chunk has 10 entries): 1 11 21 31 41 51 61 71 81 |----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----| ^ ^ `----' This is a chunk. present <------------ time -------------> past previous/next link from chunk to chunk. Entries are added into or before the #1 chunked above. Here's a chunked non-incremental feed (e.g. OpenSearch result feed; each chunk has 10 entries): 1 11 21 31 41 51 61 71 81 |----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----| ^ ^ `----' This is a chunk. ++ <------------- relevance --------------> -- previous/next link from chunk to chunk. Here are non-chunked non-incremental feeds (e.g. Top 10 feeds with history): 1 |----| -> Oct. 24 Top 10 1 |----| -> Oct. 17 Top 10 1 |----| -> Oct. 10 Top 10 previous/next would link from snapshot to snapshot ?! And finally, here are chunked non-incremental feeds (e.g. Top 50 feeds with history, each chunk has 10 entries): ++ <-------------- ranking ---------------> -- 1 11 21 31 41 51 61 71 81 |----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----| -> Sept. 2005 ^ ^ `----' This is a chunk. 1 11 21 31 41 51 61 71 81 |----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----| -> Aug. 2005 1 11 21 31 41 51 61 71 81 |----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----| -> Jul. 2005 What would mean previous/next here? I'm proposing previous/next linking from chunk to chunk inside the same snapshot and adding a new link relation (or set of link relations) for linking from snapshot to snapshot. Do you now see what I'm talking about? -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 04:26:05 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETxed-0003iR-4b for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 04:26:05 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA24574 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 04:25:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9O8HkHG026943; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 01:17:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9O8HkJ5026942; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 01:17:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9O8HgSr026930 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 01:17:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:19:16 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:17:06 +1000 Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1171.194.250.147.107.1130139060.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 24/10/05 5:31 PM, "Thomas Broyer" wrote: > This has not yet proven to be really needed (e.g. the Top 50 web site I > saw didn't provide archives of previous rankings). > When there'll be such a need, then we'll define a new link relation (I > already proposed "archives"/"history" to link to a "table of contents" > feed allowing navigation to e.g. snapshots of non-incremental feeds; > another link relation for the "webring" use case if it proves to be needed > one day). +1 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 04:45:51 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETxxm-0000m2-Vm for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 04:45:51 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA25311 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 04:45:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9O8bt3Q028916; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 01:37:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9O8bt0Q028915; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 01:37:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from krusty.greenbytes.de (pd95b23e9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [217.91.35.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9O8bqMt028907 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 01:37:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stefan.eissing@greenbytes.de) Received: from [192.168.1.26] (burns.greenbytes.de [192.168.1.26]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by krusty.greenbytes.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BC22352F2B0; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:40:12 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: References: <1h4wk2l.wn71l8yflbweM%pmrobinson@gmx.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <15acced7c3e535000e5d9b32c05b69b8@greenbytes.de> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org (Atom Syntax), Peter Robinson From: Stefan Eissing Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Last Call Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:37:50 +0200 To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Am 23.10.2005 um 23:34 schrieb Mark Nottingham: > On 23/10/2005, at 1:04 PM, Peter Robinson wrote: >> >> I prefer 'subscribe' because it better describes the meaning and >> intention behind the link, but I can live with 'current' if that is >> the >> consensus. > > Well, Tim seemed to have a pretty strong -1 on 'subscribe', whereas > you say you can live with 'current'. So, at this point it looks like > 'current', unless other people come forward. I flirted with "recent" > briefly; anybody strongly like that one? Maybe it is clear to everyone but me...however i do not see the damage done by using rel="self" instead of inventing a new relation. Could someone bother to explain that? I know the definition in the format spec says it points to an "equivalent resource", but it also says that "This is the preferred URI for retrieving Atom Feed Documents representing this Atom feed." I probably do miss something important here, but a) "equivalent resource" says either nothing or lets you enter a mine field while roy t. machine guns you b) "representing this Atom feed" requires some king of dualistic thinking: the whole Atom feed is composed of several Atom feed documents which are linked with "prev" and (maybe) "next" relations. "self" points to the URI for the overall feed and has the same value in all chained feed documents (or feed chunks as i would call them) Can I convince anyone to enter the land where an Atom feed is composed of one or more Atom feed documents? Cheers, Stefan From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 06:05:40 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETzD1-0004fj-U8 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 06:05:40 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA28852 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 06:05:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9O9rSnj036890; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 02:53:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9O9rSLS036889; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 02:53:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9O9rSsZ036883 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 02:53:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 47367 invoked by uid 17064); 24 Oct 2005 09:53:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [H?@IPv6:::1]) ([192.220.66.168]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 24 Oct 2005 09:53:27 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: <15acced7c3e535000e5d9b32c05b69b8@greenbytes.de> References: <1h4wk2l.wn71l8yflbweM%pmrobinson@gmx.net> <15acced7c3e535000e5d9b32c05b69b8@greenbytes.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <3D7BC92E-F0D3-4F6C-AA21-8F8450C80906@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Last Call Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:53:24 +0200 To: Syntax Atom X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree "self" would do well. But it is true that it's current definition is a little vague. I don't suppose one can refine it in a way consistent with its current definition? In any case this all looks good to me. As soon as we agree on the names, I will implement these links in BlogEd, so that the web server can keep a complete history of published changes. What would I need to add to my feed to make it clear that I my feed is incremental (I think that's what my feed would be)? Henry On 24 Oct 2005, at 10:37, Stefan Eissing wrote: > Am 23.10.2005 um 23:34 schrieb Mark Nottingham: > >> On 23/10/2005, at 1:04 PM, Peter Robinson wrote: >> >>> >>> I prefer 'subscribe' because it better describes the meaning and >>> intention behind the link, but I can live with 'current' if that >>> is the >>> consensus. >>> >> >> Well, Tim seemed to have a pretty strong -1 on 'subscribe', >> whereas you say you can live with 'current'. So, at this point it >> looks like 'current', unless other people come forward. I flirted >> with "recent" briefly; anybody strongly like that one? >> > > Maybe it is clear to everyone but me...however i do not see the > damage done by using rel="self" instead of inventing a new > relation. Could someone bother to explain that? > > I know the definition in the format spec says it points to an > "equivalent resource", but it also says that "This is the preferred > URI for retrieving Atom Feed Documents representing this Atom > feed." I probably do miss something important here, but > a) "equivalent resource" says either nothing or lets you enter a > mine field while roy t. machine guns you > b) "representing this Atom feed" requires some king of dualistic > thinking: the whole Atom feed is composed of several Atom feed > documents which are linked with "prev" and (maybe) "next" > relations. "self" points to the URI for the overall feed and has > the same value in all chained feed documents (or feed chunks as i > would call them) > > Can I convince anyone to enter the land where an Atom feed is > composed of one or more Atom feed documents? > > Cheers, Stefan > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 06:51:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETzv2-0007mP-F0 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 06:51:08 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA01266 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 06:50:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OAj7Ti043157; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 03:45:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9OAj78i043156; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 03:45:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9OAj5vP043130 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 03:45:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 24 Oct 2005 10:45:00 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-254-34.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.254.34] by mail.gmx.net (mp028) with SMTP; 24 Oct 2005 12:45:00 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:45:21 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Syntax Atom Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Last Call Message-ID: <20051024104521.GA20564@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Syntax Atom References: <1h4wk2l.wn71l8yflbweM%pmrobinson@gmx.net> <15acced7c3e535000e5d9b32c05b69b8@greenbytes.de> <3D7BC92E-F0D3-4F6C-AA21-8F8450C80906@bblfish.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3D7BC92E-F0D3-4F6C-AA21-8F8450C80906@bblfish.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id GAA01266 * Henry Story [2005-10-24 12:00]: > What would I need to add to my feed to make it clear that I my > feed is incremental (I think that's what my feed would be)? By my understanding, incremental is the default semantic for a feed, so to make it clear that that=E2=80=99s what yours is you would add nothing. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 07:24:54 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EU0Ri-0000LI-3G for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 07:24:54 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA02777 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 07:24:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OBIwZA046809; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 04:18:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9OBIwDO046808; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 04:18:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav2.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.74]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OBIwe4046802 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 04:18:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 04:18:57 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV2.phx.gbl with DAV; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:18:57 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:18:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Oct 2005 11:18:57.0845 (UTC) FILETIME=[BA0E5650:01C5D88C] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Scheid wrote: >> The challenge with using alternate to point to files of different types >> is that why would someone do (a) when they can already do (b) without >> the help of a new extension >> >> (a) >> > href="http://example.com/file.mp3"> >> > /> >> >> >> (b) >> > href="http://example.com/file.mp3" /> >> > href="http://example2.com/file.ogg" /> > > With (a), we know the .mp3 and the .ogg are simply different formats of > the > same thing. With (b) we don't know either way. I like (a) in concept because, as you say, it enables you to tell when two links are the same so if you're auto-downloading you don't need them both. However, I do think James is right in thinking that many people will just use (b) because it's already there. I don't see the harm in allowing (a) though. If a feed producer uses (a) and an end-user has auto-downloading enabled for that feed, they both benefit from less wasted bandwidth. The only downside would be that aggregators that aren't aware of this extension would fail to see the alternate enclosures. Is that so bad though? It's a trade-off the feed producer has to make - I'm not sure we should be making that decision for them. Something else that just occured to me: is there any likelyhood of this kind of extension breaking existing aggregators? I know that technically there's nothing wrong with it, but I can see aggregators that have home-grown XML parsers possibly getting confused by this. I'm not suggesting the proposal should be abandoned because of a few poor implementations of the Atom spec, but I think it would be worth finding out how much of a problem it is (if anything). Maybe run a test feed through a few of the most popular aggregators and see how many explode. The ones I've tested so far: neither FeedReader nor FeedDemon support enclosures. I'm not sure if that's good news or bad news. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 09:53:27 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EU2lT-0001jd-CO for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:53:27 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA10784 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:53:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9ODheib061114; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 06:43:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9ODhejB061113; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 06:43:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9ODhdgS061107 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 06:43:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id d9so237766qbd for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 06:43:39 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=OABee19wkzY0cu9Q7RLBtxKIqx58menuGq0SMfe5YcXrz2MoMATAicFz+/UnD6586y4rv3m6AJ4uSC3HWffJ56R/dq8Bge6RRpDLHTCNl0eJomNzgA7GX6bpVxlqjIAP2nlFNVJvoCuZe31KVIbkceNwbzRm5dnxpWtd8uhNrPc= Received: by 10.65.133.13 with SMTP id k13mr387639qbn; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 06:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.59.14 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 06:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3f1451f50510240643k2af9cbfm4755522782272e1a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:43:39 -0400 From: Joe Gregorio To: James M Snell Subject: Re: Profile links Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= , Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: <435A8B53.5040600@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <43593C8C.6060603@gmail.com> <43596CED.2070801@dehora.net> <4359769E.8030802@gmail.com> <435A33E3.5090801@dehora.net> <435A5218.7060805@gmail.com> <435A7B59.1020009@dehora.net> <435A8B53.5040600@gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9ODhegS061108 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/22/05, James M Snell wrote: > Hmm.. the more I think about this and the more we discuss it, the less I > think I like link[rel="profile"]. While the URI of the profile > reference should be dereferenceable, most of the time the profile value > is going to be used as an identifier. > > > http://example.com/profiles/weblog > http://example.com/profiles/podcast > I would prefer a link@rel='profile' as it provides a nice symmetry with (X)HTML, in particular the microformat use of such link elements to point at XMDP documents[1]. -joe [1] http://www.gmpg.org/xmdp/ -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 10:22:11 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EU3DH-0001OG-DY for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:22:11 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA12361 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:21:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OEDxWK064136; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 07:13:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9OEDxJo064135; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 07:13:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav24.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.96]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OEDxtU064129 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 07:13:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 07:13:58 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV24.phx.gbl with DAV; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:13:58 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: <3895.194.250.147.107.1129907383.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> <43590C89.70505@gmail.com> <43591C20.6090808@cegetel.net> <43591D90.9050508@gmail.com> <43592901.7030407@cegetel.net> <43592A63.1010305@gmail.com> <43592C4B.3080302@cegetel.net> <43595C39.2080106@cegetel.net> <1180.194.250.147.107.1130140906.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:13:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Oct 2005 14:13:58.0441 (UTC) FILETIME=[2CE62190:01C5D8A5] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas Broyer wrote: >> I beg to differ. I think the incremental state of a feed is very relevant >> to paging. If the aggregator does not know that a feed is non-incremental >> it will not be able to process the feed document in a meaningful manner. > > Yes, but that's orthogonal to paging. I think I see where the misunderstanding has arisen here. We don't agree on what constitutes paging in a non-incremental feed. You think it means splitting a single feed into multiple pages whereas I interpret the pages as being a history of past feeds. With your interpretation the incremental state is irrelevant - with mine it's very relevant. > You're not describing a "search feed" (or maybe more a search *result* > feed, like OpenSearch result feeds) but a "filtered aggregate feed" (as > published by PubSub). Actually I was thinking of something somewhere in the middle. Like when you do a search in Google Groups it offers to notify you of new results via email. I would have thought that would be a standard feature for any search service that provided results in a syndication format. I mean what's the point of having something you can subscribe to if it doesn't change? >> This is all very interesting, but not possible without more link >> extensions which don't exist yet. > > Wait a bit and I'll propose them for registration. When they'll exist, > what would become your argument? I think what you're suggesting is overly complicated and not strictly necessary. However, there's nothing stopping you proposing such an extension. My opinion is just my opinion. If you can get support for it, great. The only thing that matters at the moment is whether you're happy with Mark's current proposal for next/prev. If you are then we can move on. If you aren't, you should probably be taking up your case with him. >> With what we have so far we can do incremental feed archives; we can do >> at >> least some form of searching; we can do non-incremental feeds (of the >> "Top >> 10" variety) with history. I think that's a good start. > > But we also want paged non-incremental feeds (OpenSearch result feeds), > while "non-incremental feeds with history" have not yet proven to be > needed. I still don't see why OpenSearch result feeds can't be implemented as incremental feeds. Either they're being used as a one-off search and you can't subscribe to them (in which case there is no difference between incremental and non-incremental), or they're being updated with new results over time (like a filtered aggregate feed) in which case I would think they have to be incremental. As for "non-incremental feeds with history", I can't point to a specific site that is using something like that, but I know it has been requested before. It's possible it was just a hypothetical "it might be useful if..." type of request though. > I'm proposing previous/next linking from chunk to chunk inside the same > snapshot and adding a new link relation (or set of link relations) for > linking from snapshot to snapshot. > > Do you now see what I'm talking about? I understand what you're talking about, but I just don't see the need. I would have expected a non-incremental feed to be a single Atom document. My reason for wanting paging is so that a user doesn't need to fetch data that he already has - this can never be a problem with a non-incremental feed because it doesn't grow. That leaves the next/prev links free for use as a history of past snapshots. Once again, this is just my opinion. I don't expect you to agree with me. I'm sure the market will make its own choices about how best to use these extensions. If it turns out my opinion is in the minority, you may well find me changing my mind in the future - it wouldn't be the first time. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 11:51:44 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EU4bv-0002t2-T7 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:51:44 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA16727 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:51:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OFgbJj071611; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 08:42:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9OFgbcj071610; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 08:42:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc14.comcast.net (sccrmhc14.comcast.net [204.127.202.59]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OFgaVh071598 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 08:42:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc14) with SMTP id <2005102415421101400sd0m0e>; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:42:19 +0000 In-Reply-To: References: <3895.194.250.147.107.1129907383.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> <43590C89.70505@gmail.com> <43591C20.6090808@cegetel.net> <43591D90.9050508@gmail.com> <43592901.7030407@cegetel.net> <43592A63.1010305@gmail.com> <43592C4B.3080302@cegetel.net> <43595C39.2080106@cegetel.net> <1180.194.250.147.107.1130140906.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <005BE101-E2BC-41F4-957E-AF8BFAD16921@geckotribe.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:42:09 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Oct 24, 2005, at 8:13 AM, James Holderness wrote: >>> With what we have so far we can do incremental feed archives; we >>> can do at >>> least some form of searching; we can do non-incremental feeds (of >>> the "Top >>> 10" variety) with history. I think that's a good start. >> >> But we also want paged non-incremental feeds (OpenSearch result >> feeds), >> while "non-incremental feeds with history" have not yet proven to be >> needed. > > I still don't see why OpenSearch result feeds can't be implemented > as incremental feeds. Perhaps they can, but that wouldn't always be desirable. Consider this scenario: Somebody writes a program that searches Google, scrapes the HTML results, and publishes them as an Atom feed. My purpose in subscribing to the feed is not to be alerted when a new webpage is added to page 20 of Google's results, it's to be alerted whenever a new webpage makes it onto page 1. So I don't want new pages added to the live end of the feed--I just want whatever is currently in the top 10 results, and my feed reader will tell me when one of them is one it hasn't seen before. > Either they're being used as a one-off search and you can't > subscribe to them (in which case there is no difference between > incremental and non-incremental), or they're being updated with new > results over time (like a filtered aggregate feed) in which case I > would think they have to be incremental. Given the above scenario, why wouldn't you be able to subscribe to them? >> I'm proposing previous/next linking from chunk to chunk inside the >> same >> snapshot and adding a new link relation (or set of link relations) >> for >> linking from snapshot to snapshot. >> >> Do you now see what I'm talking about? > > I understand what you're talking about, but I just don't see the > need. I would have expected a non-incremental feed to be a single > Atom document. In the case of something like a top 10 feed, I'd imagine it would be. But a search results feed like what's described above may not be. > My reason for wanting paging is so that a user doesn't need to > fetch data that he already has - this can never be a problem with a > non-incremental feed because it doesn't grow. I'm not sure I understand--it's not as if a non-incremental feed were simply a static document. They're resources whose contents are replaced wholesale (with the things that were in the old set possibly still being in the new set) rather than having their old contents augmented when new things are added. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 12:02:20 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EU4mC-0007Lf-5W for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:02:20 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA17551 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:02:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OFrpcQ073341; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 08:53:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9OFrp00073340; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 08:53:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OFrpjp073330 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 08:53:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <2005102415533501200ft8o7e>; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:53:44 +0000 In-Reply-To: References: <43593C8C.6060603@gmail.com> <43596CED.2070801@dehora.net> <4359769E.8030802@gmail.com> <435A33E3.5090801@dehora.net> <435A5218.7060805@gmail.com> <435A7B59.1020009@dehora.net> <435A8B53.5040600@gmail.com> <435A96A8.2030000@gmail.com> <435A99F9.8010008@dehora.net> <435A9E7B.60605@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Profile links Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:53:23 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Oct 23, 2005, at 6:45 PM, James Holderness wrote: > James M Snell wrote: >> 1. Can a profile element appear in an atom:feed/atom:source? If >> so, what does it mean? I think it should with the caveat that the >> profile attribute should only impact the feed and should not >> reflect on the individual entries within that feed. > > I can't see any particular use for atom:source myself, but I would > definately want profile support at the feed level. As an aggregator > I want to be able to display a custom view for a particular feed > based on what it contains (e.g. slideshow view if it's a flickr > feed - all images). It would be difficult to do something like that > with only entry level profiles. > I don't think it's possible to allow something at the feed level, but disallow it in atom:source (the Atom format spec could have done that, but I don't think an extension can add such restrictions). What does it mean in atom:source? That the feed that the entry came from conformed to the profile. What will consuming applications do with profile elements in atom:source? That's entirely up to the application developer. Maybe nothing--maybe they'll ignore profiles that don't apply to the entire feed. Or maybe they'll come up with something useful. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 12:10:18 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EU4tu-0000kQ-Eu for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:10:18 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA18122 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:10:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OG3VD1074182; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:03:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9OG3VZu074181; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:03:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [63.240.77.83]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OG3VBu074169 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:03:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <20051024160306013003efvue>; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 16:03:15 +0000 In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:03:05 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Oct 24, 2005, at 5:18 AM, James Holderness wrote: > Eric Scheid wrote: >>> The challenge with using alternate to point to files of different >>> types >>> is that why would someone do (a) when they can already do (b) >>> without >>> the help of a new extension >>> >>> (a) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> (b) >>> >> href="http://example.com/file.mp3" /> >>> >> href="http://example2.com/file.ogg" /> >>> >> >> With (a), we know the .mp3 and the .ogg are simply different >> formats of the >> same thing. With (b) we don't know either way. > > I like (a) in concept because, as you say, it enables you to tell > when two links are the same so if you're auto-downloading you don't > need them both. However, I do think James is right in thinking that > many people will just use (b) because it's already there. > > I don't see the harm in allowing (a) though. If a feed producer > uses (a) and an end-user has auto-downloading enabled for that > feed, they both benefit from less wasted bandwidth. The only > downside would be that aggregators that aren't aware of this > extension would fail to see the alternate enclosures. Is that so > bad though? It's a trade-off the feed producer has to make - I'm > not sure we should be making that decision for them. Here's the middle path: (c) This won't save you from bandwidth waste by aggregators that don't support the extension, but it also won't prevent users of those aggregators from getting the data in a format they can use. That said, this is not my preferred method. I'd rather protect bandwidth and the user's hard drive space--all the more important because enclosures are often quite large. Here's a final option--is it legal? Is it better or worse than (a) in any ways? (d) Better: Doesn't require processing of a new namespace or element-- just a new way of using the data that one gets out of an existing element. I prefer d, a, c and then b. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 12:57:38 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EU5dg-0000qk-D7 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:57:38 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA20491 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:57:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OGdkr1077590; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:39:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9OGdklB077589; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:39:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.199]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OGdkue077583 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:39:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i32so544757wra for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:39:45 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=o7WSmSQOFWjsKwosFywIn4ikmP/x4bbhJZh8BS75B5gkVE1AQwtFGIwVd//wKg1tQ3O0sJaIvWhAIx0oPD3Tg+mANRxXWpNI8E2tB/94udcmy0nc/k2tmSiOYpW1NDPpRpwArK8zqJTGpnkupdYfrPsbTvqJYRYxKe1cPjf/YnU= Received: by 10.54.145.18 with SMTP id s18mr3236092wrd; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 28sm2968079wrl.2005.10.24.09.39.44; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <435D0E47.8000003@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:39:35 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Gregorio CC: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Profile links References: <43593C8C.6060603@gmail.com> <43596CED.2070801@dehora.net> <4359769E.8030802@gmail.com> <435A33E3.5090801@dehora.net> <435A5218.7060805@gmail.com> <435A7B59.1020009@dehora.net> <435A8B53.5040600@gmail.com> <3f1451f50510240643k2af9cbfm4755522782272e1a@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3f1451f50510240643k2af9cbfm4755522782272e1a@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Gregorio wrote: >On 10/22/05, James M Snell wrote: > > >>Hmm.. the more I think about this and the more we discuss it, the less I >>think I like link[rel="profile"]. While the URI of the profile >>reference should be dereferenceable, most of the time the profile value >>is going to be used as an identifier. >> >> >> http://example.com/profiles/weblog >> http://example.com/profiles/podcast >> >> >> > >I would prefer a link@rel='profile' as it provides a nice symmetry >with (X)HTML, in particular the microformat use of such >link elements to point at XMDP documents[1]. > > -joe > >[1] http://www.gmpg.org/xmdp/ > > > I thought that head[profile='list-o-uris"] was the right approach for XHTML profiles? - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 12:58:51 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EU5es-00012k-TF for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:58:50 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA20551 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:58:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OGjqGS077991; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:45:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9OGjqLq077990; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:45:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OGjp2w077984 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:45:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id d9so280803qbd for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:45:51 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=fWGZXCtYZK/sZTsojMIHO1K26kbBEQtkPKRWQO2KuQiMEo2gGqavO78UlAHifhcyARk9ey31MvNIGMHMGHLI0nUu1bjiVRaR8bh/FVhmN3ZfN8wlT19roaX8kJzK5kAwIVTTRHQ1mXtdo2QvQVT5FABQPfH+cQC1vL8zYsHMYUQ= Received: by 10.65.196.14 with SMTP id y14mr536400qbp; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:45:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.59.14 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:45:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3f1451f50510240945h4f737615p1bb3317e78409424@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:45:51 -0400 From: Joe Gregorio To: James M Snell Subject: Re: Profile links Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= , Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: <435D0E47.8000003@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <43593C8C.6060603@gmail.com> <43596CED.2070801@dehora.net> <4359769E.8030802@gmail.com> <435A33E3.5090801@dehora.net> <435A5218.7060805@gmail.com> <435A7B59.1020009@dehora.net> <435A8B53.5040600@gmail.com> <3f1451f50510240643k2af9cbfm4755522782272e1a@mail.gmail.com> <435D0E47.8000003@gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9OGjq2w077985 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/24/05, James M Snell wrote: > Joe Gregorio wrote: > > > >I would prefer a link@rel='profile' as it provides a nice symmetry > >with (X)HTML, in particular the microformat use of such > >link elements to point at XMDP documents[1]. > > > > -joe > > > >[1] http://www.gmpg.org/xmdp/ > > > > > > > I thought that head[profile='list-o-uris"] was the right approach for > XHTML profiles? Ok, that will teach me to whip out a quick response :) You are correct that it is head[profile='list-o-uris"] and not a link element as my poorly worded message would imply. What I was trying to stress was the pointing at XMDP documents, not so much the link element. -joe -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 13:28:18 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EU67O-0002dH-KN for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:28:18 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA22025 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:28:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OHG7WZ080176; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:16:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9OHG76I080175; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:16:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav19.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.91]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OHG7ip080167 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:16:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:16:01 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV19.phx.gbl with DAV; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:16:01 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: References: <3895.194.250.147.107.1129907383.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> <43590C89.70505@gmail.com> <43591C20.6090808@cegetel.net> <43591D90.9050508@gmail.com> <43592901.7030407@cegetel.net> <43592A63.1010305@gmail.com> <43592C4B.3080302@cegetel.net> <43595C39.2080106@cegetel.net> <1180.194.250.147.107.1130140906.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> <005BE101-E2BC-41F4-957E-AF8BFAD16921@geckotribe.com> Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:16:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Oct 2005 17:16:01.0702 (UTC) FILETIME=[9BAB7C60:01C5D8BE] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Perhaps they can, but that wouldn't always be desirable. Consider this > scenario: Somebody writes a program that searches Google, scrapes the > HTML results, and publishes them as an Atom feed. My purpose in > subscribing to the feed is not to be alerted when a new webpage is added > to page 20 of Google's results, it's to be alerted whenever a new webpage > makes it onto page 1. So I don't want new pages added to the live end of > the feed--I just want whatever is currently in the top 10 results, and my > feed reader will tell me when one of them is one it hasn't seen before. Ok. That's a valid point, but I still wouldn't be particularly interested in trying to accomodate that scenario. First you have someone producing a feed that is almost impossible to use as designed. Second you have someone using said feed contrary to how it was designed (although understandably so). A more sensible approach would be a single feed document containing the top N results (where N is manageable in size). You could subscribe to that as a non-incremental feed and you would know at any point in time which were the top 10 results. There is no real need for paging other than as a form of snapshot history (i.e. what were the top 10 results last week). > Given the above scenario, why wouldn't you be able to subscribe to them? I can understand why you might want to subscribe to such a feed (or at least the first page of one). I can't understand why someone would want to create it though. And I wouldn't be particularly concerned if it wasn't possible for them to do such a thing. >> My reason for wanting paging is so that a user doesn't need to fetch >> data that he already has - this can never be a problem with a >> non-incremental feed because it doesn't grow. > I'm not sure I understand--it's not as if a non-incremental feed were > simply a static document. They're resources whose contents are replaced > wholesale (with the things that were in the old set possibly still being > in the new set) rather than having their old contents augmented when new > things are added. Exactly. The *entire document* is replaced. If you want to download an update you have to redownload the whole thing. There's no point in having a paging system since you can't stop after page 1. If you have to retrieve every single page every single time then they might as well all be in one page. Once again, I have to ask the same question I asked Thomas: do you have a problem with Mark's next/prev proposal as it stands, or are you just arguing with me because you think I'm wrong? If the latter, feel free to just ignore me. We can agree to disagree. Unless we're discussing a particular proposal I don't see the point. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 13:53:51 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EU6W7-0001G0-D7 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:53:51 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA23210 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:53:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OHhT8K083107; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:43:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9OHhTf1083106; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:43:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav11.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.83]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OHhTqk083085 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:43:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:43:25 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV11.phx.gbl with DAV; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:43:25 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: References: Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:43:23 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Oct 2005 17:43:25.0367 (UTC) FILETIME=[6F5EDC70:01C5D8C2] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Antone Roundy wrote: > Here's a final option--is it legal? Is it better or worse than (a) in > any ways? > > (d) > > > I'm not completely sure yet, but I'm quite partial to this approach. My only suggestion would be using rel="enclosure" on the inner links rather than "alternate". There will be some Atom processors [1] that won't be able to tell the difference between an inner link and an outer link. If they're both marked as enclosures it won't really matter (you lose the benefits, but no worse than normal). However, interpreting the inner link as an "alternate" to the atom entry could be bad. If you combine this with the requirement that an inner link with the same type and hreflang as the outer link must be bit-for-bit identical, we could cover the other use-case of multiple download sources. So far, no new elements or attributes necessary. Not sure about the legality. Regards James [1] http://philringnalda.com/blog/2005/06/ms_embraces_rss.php From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 14:03:51 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EU6fn-0005O2-Dn for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:03:51 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA23681 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:03:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OHrMTH084803; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:53:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9OHrL8d084802; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:53:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.198.43]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OHrLB1084790 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:53:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <20051024175315014006ua0ge>; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:53:15 +0000 In-Reply-To: References: <3895.194.250.147.107.1129907383.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> <43590C89.70505@gmail.com> <43591C20.6090808@cegetel.net> <43591D90.9050508@gmail.com> <43592901.7030407@cegetel.net> <43592A63.1010305@gmail.com> <43592C4B.3080302@cegetel.net> <43595C39.2080106@cegetel.net> <1180.194.250.147.107.1130140906.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> <005BE101-E2BC-41F4-957E-AF8BFAD16921@geckotribe.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <43D04EC2-6294-4A95-97AF-A026CC7D915D@geckotribe.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Ready to go? Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:53:13 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Oct 24, 2005, at 11:16 AM, James Holderness wrote: > A more sensible approach would be a single feed document containing > the top N results (where N is manageable in size). You could > subscribe to that as a non-incremental feed and you would know at > any point in time which were the top 10 results. There is no real > need for paging other than as a form of snapshot history (i.e. what > were the top 10 results last week). That is certainly a good approach--allowing the number of results to be determined dynamically by something in the URL, for example. However, it could be useful to limit the chunk size and allow paging for people who want more. For example, you might allow a maximum of 50 results per chunk, and then support ETags. That way, if somebody wants to monitor the top 250, they can send 5 requests, and if most of the time there are no changes, they'll get a lot of 304s, but if occasionally something changes in the last chunk of 50 for example, they're only downloading 50 results each time something changes. There are of course other approaches, like support for just sending the diffs. But that would probably more difficult for most people to implement, and may be less likely to be supported by a wide variety of clients. Another reason for wanting to limit the number of results per query (and support paging for those who want more) is to avoid bandwidth waste if someone accidentally ads an extra digit to the desired number of results; or tries to waste your system resources by requesting huge result sets (but dropping the connection before using up their own bandwidth actually receiving the whole result set); or has a client that doesn't support paging or diffs or ETags or anything, and wants a huge result set (and you don't want to accommodate them since it would use so much bandwidth), etc. > Once again, I have to ask the same question I asked Thomas: do you > have a problem with Mark's next/prev proposal as it stands, or are > you just arguing with me because you think I'm wrong? If the > latter, feel free to just ignore me. We can agree to disagree. > Unless we're discussing a particular proposal I don't see the point. I have a problem with not having link relations specific to paging through a feed's current state. I'm fine with having general chain navigation link relations, but hope that we'll get something specific to paging and that people will use it instead of the general link relations. I've spoken my peace on that and have given up swimming against the tide, but am still willing to discuss specific related issues. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 14:06:13 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EU6i5-0005pv-Kd for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:06:13 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA23774 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:05:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OHvZV9085503; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:57:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9OHvZtX085502; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:57:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.196]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OHvYqm085494 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:57:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id e11so151381qbe for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:57:34 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=raYT/6xgwM/kG/EHfc5BqeKIy3akjfTys9mh6eQYGhFV3JfSI+3qDNDaTv/99m4M0PApS0hIcM18Z/x9bwHUdHnJIerfNm/bMrCNOqYolr6lf0E//DO78oXO2CZFJvloen1bri2eYkPUEDW5al+CSFBZTE7E4Vb7hpqYO3U62p4= Received: by 10.64.142.3 with SMTP id p3mr2941216qbd; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id o32sm3714260qbe.2005.10.24.10.57.33; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <435D2084.7020904@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:57:24 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Holderness CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The concept of reusing atom namespaced elements as extensions inside other atom namespaced elements has come up before and has generally been frowned upon. James Holderness wrote: > > Antone Roundy wrote: > >> Here's a final option--is it legal? Is it better or worse than (a) >> in any ways? >> >> (d) >> >> >> > > > I'm not completely sure yet, but I'm quite partial to this approach. > > My only suggestion would be using rel="enclosure" on the inner links > rather than "alternate". There will be some Atom processors [1] that > won't be able to tell the difference between an inner link and an > outer link. If they're both marked as enclosures it won't really > matter (you lose the benefits, but no worse than normal). However, > interpreting the inner link as an "alternate" to the atom entry could > be bad. > > If you combine this with the requirement that an inner link with the > same type and hreflang as the outer link must be bit-for-bit > identical, we could cover the other use-case of multiple download > sources. So far, no new elements or attributes necessary. Not sure > about the legality. > > Regards > James > > [1] http://philringnalda.com/blog/2005/06/ms_embraces_rss.php > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 14:14:33 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EU6q9-0000Zm-31 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:14:33 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA24197 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:14:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OI4rO4086187; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:04:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9OI4rLU086186; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:04:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav3.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.75]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OI4rPS086178 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:04:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:04:47 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV3.phx.gbl with DAV; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:04:47 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: References: <435D2084.7020904@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 19:04:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Oct 2005 18:04:47.0947 (UTC) FILETIME=[6BD909B0:01C5D8C5] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James M Snell wrote: > The concept of reusing atom namespaced elements as extensions inside > other atom namespaced elements has come up before and has generally been > frowned upon. No big deal. I'm quite happy with your initial x:alternate proposal. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 15:16:31 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EU7o7-0002Kt-EZ for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:16:31 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA27000 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:16:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OJ8SrO091196; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:08:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9OJ8S5w091195; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:08:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-bedford.mitre.org (smtpproxy1.mitre.org [192.160.51.76]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OJ8RRZ091189 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:08:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pauld@mitre.org) Received: from smtp-bedford.mitre.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-bedford.mitre.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id j9OJ8QZ09629 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:08:26 -0400 Received: from smtp-bedford.mitre.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-bedford.mitre.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2698BBEFB for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:08:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from IMCFE1.MITRE.ORG (imcfe1.mitre.org [129.83.29.3]) by smtp-bedford.mitre.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j9OJ8Pv09604; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:08:25 -0400 Received: from MM115303-PC.mitre.org ([129.83.178.122]) by IMCFE1.MITRE.ORG with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:08:25 -0400 Message-Id: <6.2.3.4.0.20051024150115.05d5c5b0@localhost> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.3.4 Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:08:24 -0400 To: Joe Gregorio , James M Snell From: Paul Denning Subject: Re: Profile links Cc: Bill de =?iso-8859-1?Q?h=D3ra?= , Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: <3f1451f50510240945h4f737615p1bb3317e78409424@mail.gmail.co m> References: <43593C8C.6060603@gmail.com> <43596CED.2070801@dehora.net> <4359769E.8030802@gmail.com> <435A33E3.5090801@dehora.net> <435A5218.7060805@gmail.com> <435A7B59.1020009@dehora.net> <435A8B53.5040600@gmail.com> <3f1451f50510240643k2af9cbfm4755522782272e1a@mail.gmail.com> <435D0E47.8000003@gmail.com> <3f1451f50510240945h4f737615p1bb3317e78409424@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Oct 2005 19:08:25.0387 (UTC) FILETIME=[4F3827B0:01C5D8CE] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At 12:45 PM 2005-10-24, Joe Gregorio wrote: >On 10/24/05, James M Snell wrote: > > Joe Gregorio wrote: > > > > > >I would prefer a link@rel='profile' as it provides a nice symmetry > > >with (X)HTML, in particular the microformat use of such > > >link elements to point at XMDP documents[1]. > > > > > > -joe > > > > > >[1] http://www.gmpg.org/xmdp/ > > > > > > > > > > > I thought that head[profile='list-o-uris"] was the right approach for > > XHTML profiles? > >Ok, that will teach me to whip out a quick response :) >You are correct that it is head[profile='list-o-uris"] and not a >link element as my poorly worded message would imply. >What I was trying to stress was the pointing at XMDP documents, >not so much the link element. Or GRDDL [2]. [2] http://www.w3.org/2003/g/data-view If you use del.icio.us, let me suggest the use of the tag "atomprofile" to bookmark links to profile descriptions. You then have a makeshift registry at [3]. [3] http://del.icio.us/tag/atomprofile Paul From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 15:53:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EU8NX-0003oC-Mg for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:53:07 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA28913 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:52:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OJm1Z1094532; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:48:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9OJm15a094531; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:48:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9OJm04T094518 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:48:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 24 Oct 2005 19:47:54 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-249-75.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.249.75] by mail.gmx.net (mp021) with SMTP; 24 Oct 2005 21:47:54 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:48:16 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions Message-ID: <20051024194816.GA23330@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <435A576B.7060904@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <435A576B.7060904@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id PAA28913 * James M Snell [2005-10-22 17:20]: > (a) > > > >=20 > (b) > href=3D"http://example.com/file.mp3" /> > href=3D"http://example2.com/file.ogg" /> * Antone Roundy [2005-10-24 18:10]: > (c) > file.mp3" x:link-set=3D"a" /> > example2.com/file.ogg" x:link-set=3D"a" /> >=20 > (d) > file.mp3"> > example2.com/file.ogg" /> > I have a completely different proposition. (e) Since bit-for-bit identical files all have the exact same attributes, there is absolutely no reason to have an entire tag dedicated to each. In addition, making mirror URLs second-class citizens in this ways provides an intuitive hint at the bit-for-bit identity semantics. Specifying alternative formats with a distinct link relationship prevents bandwidth and diskspace drain from oblivious clients. And once you=E2=80=99ve gotten so far as to think of one enclosure as the preferentially advertised format, it=E2=80=99s no stretch to think of grouping alternative-format enclosures as linking the alternative format enclosures to the preferrentially advertised one. And that=E2=80=99s a purpose for which IDs work just fine. Thinking in terms of code I believe this model is a bit easier to process than any of the alternatives. A list of mirror URLs is obviously trivial to retrieve. And just as you can do with the nested-element models, you can read the list of enclosure groups right off the markup simply by looking for any `enclosure` links. But less nesting is easier to process. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 16:33:28 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EU90a-0004gv-N8 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 16:33:28 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA15865 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 16:33:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OKPkct098146; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:25:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9OKPkcn098145; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:25:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc14.comcast.net [216.148.227.89]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OKPkXk098138 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:25:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc14) with SMTP id <20051024202430014006an9fe>; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 20:24:36 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: <20051024194816.GA23330@klangraum> References: <435A576B.7060904@gmail.com> <20051024194816.GA23330@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <9FE77F88-C654-4343-8315-19398BAD0F63@geckotribe.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:24:29 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Oct 24, 2005, at 1:48 PM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > I have a completely different proposition. > > (e) > rel="enclosure" type="audio/mpeg" > href="http://example.com/file.mp3" > encl:mirrors="http://www2.example.com/file.mp3 http:// > www3.example.com/file.mp3" > xml:id="x-file" > /> > rel="alternative-enclosure" type="application/ogg" > href="http://example2.com/file.ogg" > encl:alternative-to="x-file" > /> > > Since bit-for-bit identical files all have the exact same > attributes, there is absolutely no reason to have an entire tag > dedicated to each. In addition, making mirror URLs second-class > citizens in this ways provides an intuitive hint at the > bit-for-bit identity semantics. Interesting. Filling an attribute with a list of URIs doesn't really appeal to me though. How about this: > Specifying alternative formats with a distinct link relationship > prevents bandwidth and diskspace drain from oblivious clients. Sounds good, but you may have noticed above that I used a prefix not specific to enclosures--there's no reason to tie this all to one particular type of link (nor to make it look as if it were tied to one specific link type). So the other link might, for example, be: Although "alternative-link" doesn't tell you what kind of link this is, since you're going to have to tie it back to the primary link to decide what to do with it anyway, it really shouldn't matter. Note that I changed "alternative-to" to "primary" just because it's shorter and one word. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 17:05:26 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EU9VW-0000I3-Dd for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:05:26 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA20472 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:05:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OKxIqo000961; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:59:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9OKxIE8000960; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:59:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9OKxGoj000951 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:59:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 24 Oct 2005 20:59:10 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-249-75.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.249.75] by mail.gmx.net (mp030) with SMTP; 24 Oct 2005 22:59:10 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:59:32 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions Message-ID: <20051024205932.GA23601@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <435A576B.7060904@gmail.com> <20051024194816.GA23330@klangraum> <9FE77F88-C654-4343-8315-19398BAD0F63@geckotribe.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9FE77F88-C654-4343-8315-19398BAD0F63@geckotribe.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id RAA20472 * Antone Roundy [2005-10-24 22:35]: > Interesting. Filling an attribute with a list of URIs doesn't > really appeal to me though. How about this: >=20 > file.mp3" xml:id=3D"x-file"> > > > It=E2=80=99s a lot more verbose and you have to fiddle with nesting. What do you get in return? =E2=80=9CIt looks more XMLish=E2=80=9D? > Sounds good, but you may have noticed above that I used a > prefix not specific to enclosures--there's no reason to tie > this all to one particular type of link (nor to make it look > as if it were tied to one specific link type). So the other > link might, for example, be: I don=E2=80=99t know if striving for generality in this fashion without a practical need is worthwhile. It smells of architecture astronautics for a reason I can=E2=80=99t particularly pinpoint. So maybe my instinct is wrong. > Note that I changed "alternative-to" to "primary" just because > it's shorter and one word. Works for me. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 17:20:21 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EU9jx-0005LZ-QU for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:20:21 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA21065 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OLCfr4002742; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:12:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9OLCf7f002741; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:12:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pih-relay04.plus.net (pih-relay04.plus.net [212.159.14.131]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OLCemH002729 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:12:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pmrobinson@gmx.net) Received: from [80.229.20.190] (helo=[192.168.0.8]) by pih-relay04.plus.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1EU9cM-0001z9-LG for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:12:30 +0100 To: atom-syntax@imc.org (Atom Syntax) In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Last Call From: pmrobinson@gmx.net (Peter Robinson) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:12:34 +0100 Message-ID: <1h4yfee.expm9p15y26o0M%pmrobinson@gmx.net> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.7 (Mac OS X version 10.3.9) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hi Mark, Mark Nottingham wrote: > On 23/10/2005, at 1:04 PM, Peter Robinson wrote: > > > I prefer 'subscribe' because it better describes the meaning and > > intention behind the link, but I can live with 'current' if that is > > the consensus. > > Well, Tim seemed to have a pretty strong -1 on 'subscribe', whereas > you say you can live with 'current'. I can. The argument as I understand it is that relations should be nouns rather than verbs (describing what the link points to rather than what you should do with it). I can't argue that point, but I do feel that 'current' less encapsulates the intent than 'subscribe'. Someone else suggested 'subscription'. This should be my last word on the subject: Apparently it came as a surpise to some that rel='self' as defined is not the same as 'the url you should subscribe to' in the general case. I don't want to make the same mistake yet again. First example: consider a statically archived non-incremental OpenSearch-style feed split into pages: A reasonable interpretation (the only possible interpretation?) of rel='current' would be this: which is certainly not the url you should subscribe to. Second example: a dynamic feed where cgi variables are used to set options, perhaps for use in building an html page of links rather than normal subscription, but you can come up with other uses: Rel='current' would point to but it would be much better for PubSub or a desktop aggregator to go to if it ever got hold of such a feed. The second example is (essentially) something I already do. I don't expect urls like that to 'escape' into the wild, but I can't prevent it and I'd like to be able to give an aggregator something meaningful to do when it does happen. If we want to define a link relation meaning 'the url you should subscribe to' then that is what we should define. > So, at this point it looks like 'current', unless other people come > forward. I flirted with "recent" briefly; anybody strongly like that one? I don't think that is any better. > > I am also worried that this is being pushed through too quickly. > > I appreciate that, but it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem; we > won't get all of the implementation experience until it's defined and > widely deployed. That is true, but have you communicated with the OpenSearch people about this? I do strongly believe that *here* is the place for work like this, rather than behind closed doors at Amazon. But if I was them I'd feel pretty miffed that this WG appears to have basically stolen their idea in a desperate 'land grab', and turned it on its head so that it is (arguably) the complete opposite of their intended definition. [snips] > > OpenSearch uses 'next' to go from page=1 to page=2. The natural > > paging setup for an inremental feed that is also an OpenSearch results > > feed is to have rel=current (aka rel=subscribe) point to the first page > > of results (i.e. page=1). > > > > Is it the intention that history reconstruction uses 'next' links to go > > back into the past? [...] > Right now, the plan forward seems to be that 'next' et al will be > purposefully generic; i.e., they won't mean much until used in > conjunction with another extension (in my case, fh:incremental). > > My plan for feed history is to recommend people walk both 'previous' > and 'next' from the subscription feed, so that it doesn't matter > which "way" the feed goes. I see! That little nugget of an idea makes me feel a lot more comfortable about prev/next. So something that understands rel=previous, next et al will be able to reconstruct a complete logical feed, and the history extension will tell it 'which way is up' and whether it's a traditional 'incremental' feed. That makes a lot of sense. Regards, Peter From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 17:56:34 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUAIz-0001ZT-SN for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:56:33 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA24322 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:56:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OLpKua007586; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:51:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9OLpKwu007585; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:51:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav10.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.82]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OLpKkP007566 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:51:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:51:14 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV10.phx.gbl with DAV; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:51:14 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: References: <435A576B.7060904@gmail.com> <20051024194816.GA23330@klangraum> <9FE77F88-C654-4343-8315-19398BAD0F63@geckotribe.com> Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:51:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Oct 2005 21:51:14.0853 (UTC) FILETIME=[0E465D50:01C5D8E5] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Antone Roundy wrote: > Interesting. Filling an attribute with a list of URIs doesn't really > appeal to me though. Me neither. Something feels wrong about that. If you want a concrete reason, it requires extra parsing whereas everything else would be automatically parsed by the XML library. > > > > Isn't this essentially the same as James' original proposal? Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 18:21:45 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUAhN-0003Bi-KE for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:21:45 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA25287 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:21:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OMCmux009302; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:12:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9OMCmxu009301; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:12:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9OMCkF9009282 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:12:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 24 Oct 2005 22:12:40 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-249-75.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.249.75] by mail.gmx.net (mp009) with SMTP; 25 Oct 2005 00:12:40 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:13:02 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions Message-ID: <20051024221302.GD23601@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <435A576B.7060904@gmail.com> <20051024194816.GA23330@klangraum> <9FE77F88-C654-4343-8315-19398BAD0F63@geckotribe.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id SAA25287 * James Holderness [2005-10-25 00:00]: > If you want a concrete reason, it requires extra parsing > whereas everything else would be automatically parsed by the > XML library. You have to split on whitespace; that=E2=80=99s much easier in my book than finding a nodeset of nested elements and iterating over it. > Isn't this essentially the same as James' original proposal? Yes. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 18:36:12 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUAvM-0008RU-8d for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:36:12 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA26061 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:35:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OMSgie013066; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:28:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9OMSg3J013065; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:28:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [216.148.227.117]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OMSfWu013002 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:28:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2005102422283001300fgl5be>; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:28:36 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: <20051024205932.GA23601@klangraum> References: <435A576B.7060904@gmail.com> <20051024194816.GA23330@klangraum> <9FE77F88-C654-4343-8315-19398BAD0F63@geckotribe.com> <20051024205932.GA23601@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <201973B7-66BE-4D6A-8E99-5C85CFB578AA@geckotribe.com> From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 16:28:29 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9OMSfWu013060 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id SAA26061 On Oct 24, 2005, at 2:59 PM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > * Antone Roundy [2005-10-24 22:35]: >> Interesting. Filling an attribute with a list of URIs doesn't >> really appeal to me though. How about this: >> >> > file.mp3" xml:id=3D"x-file"> >> >> >> > > It=92s a lot more verbose and you have to fiddle with nesting. > > What do you get in return? =93It looks more XMLish=94? 1) Easier parsing, as James said, since your XML parsing library is =20 going to give you the data with the URI's already split apart. 2) You can break lines between elements, but you can't inside an =20 attribute, so it's better for display for humans. I think XMLishness leans this direction for good reason. >> Sounds good, but you may have noticed above that I used a >> prefix not specific to enclosures--there's no reason to tie >> this all to one particular type of link (nor to make it look >> as if it were tied to one specific link type). So the other >> link might, for example, be: > > I don=92t know if striving for generality in this fashion without > a practical need is worthwhile. It smells of architecture > astronautics for a reason I can=92t particularly pinpoint. So maybe > my instinct is wrong. The way I see it, striving for specificity without a practical need =20 isn't worthwhile. Unless generalizing risks leading to some sort of =20 problem, why do it? I see no potential problems. What if someday somebody does come up with a non-enclosure use for =20 this (which hardly seems far-fetched to me--enclosures aren't the =20 only things that get mirrored or exist in multiple formats)? They'll =20 have to define a new mechanism for it which is either going to be =20 identical except for element names, or they're going to invent =20 another way to do the same thing. Either way, the pain of supporting =20 both is completely unnecessary unless there's potential for =20 generality causing problems. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 19:02:40 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUBKy-0007q7-0Q for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 19:02:40 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA28831 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 19:02:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OMreDW015866; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:53:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9OMreAk015865; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:53:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mX1.myOutlookonline.com (mx1.MyOutlookOnline.com [69.25.74.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9OMrXXX015847 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:53:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from byrne@sixapart.com) Received: from be022.mail.lan ([10.109.209.122]) by mX1.myOutlookonline.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:53:28 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Are Generic Link Relations Always a Good Idea? [was: Feed History -04] Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:53:33 -0400 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Are Generic Link Relations Always a Good Idea? [was: Feed History -04] Thread-Index: AcXTcpXgFAJSZVHpTwG2FdeqSgDvDAFbFvNw From: "Byrne Reese" To: "Mark Nottingham" , "Robert Sayre" Cc: "James M Snell" , "Thomas Broyer" , "James Holderness" , "Eric Scheid" , "Atom Syntax" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Oct 2005 22:53:28.0308 (UTC) FILETIME=[BF966340:01C5D8ED] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9OMreXX015859 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > As I said before, if the WG can reach consensus, I'm happy > with any old term. I hadn't seen Mark's proposal till a few > days ago, and a mention in an xml.com does not, in my > opinion, a spec-in-stone make. > My only pushback on "next" is that to me, it seems counterintuititive > -- same as your pushback on "prev." *shrug* > > The SixApart people have publicly pointed to FH, so I don't > think they're particularly fussed about any particular > approach other (not to put words in their mouth). I wasn't > able to find a TP feed that uses rel="next"; do you have a > link to one? I have been holding back until I found the right message to reply to. I think I found it. As it turns out Six Apart's Japanese office recently released something we call "TypePad Mobile" and "TypeCast." Both products are geared at the same problem: making blogs accessible to mobile devices. TypeCast is about making an Atom powered blogging application, whereas TypePad Mobile's purpose is to make all published blogs completely accessible via Atom. It may be the most comprehensive Atom implementation of its kind, but that is a bold statement to make. (FYI: Tatsuhiko Miyagawa was the lead engineer behind the project.) In TypePad Mobile, Tatsuhiko implemented a rel=next and rel=prev in order to facilitate the following problem: * in browsing a blog on a phone, one can only realistically afford to read 1-3 entries at a time. The implementation addresses the need to: ** veiwing the first n posts on the front door, and then paging through entries that go back in time ** viewing category archives (1 or 2 entries at a time) ** viewing daily/weekly/monthly/yearly archives (1 or 2 entries at a time) ** eventually to view tag archives, "most popular" archives, etc * next and prev were also used both in the context of the application: ** show me a list of entries I can edit ** show me a list of the most recent comments ** etc. So there is a real live use case. As for me, I am rarely one to get myself involved in a namenclature debate. More often than not, IMHO, they just go in cicles. Plus once you get involved, it is hard to extricate yourself from the debate. So for *me*, I don't really care what the link relations are labeled provided that their usage is well defined, and that there is concenseus around their intended usage. I have come around to favor: next|prev|first|last|(current or subscribe) because it is similar to (if not identical with) what we have alread implemented in our APP implementatin and in Japan. But also it is sufficiently specific and sufficiently open ended to give me (the implementer) a very reasonable set of ways to apply the principal. Byrne Reese From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 20:18:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUCW0-000475-OP for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 20:18:08 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA07064 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 20:17:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9P085hT023765; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:08:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9P085ZP023764; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:08:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9P083DJ023757 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:08:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:10:01 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:07:49 +1000 Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 25/10/05 3:43 AM, "James Holderness" wrote: > My only suggestion would be using rel="enclosure" on the inner links rather > than "alternate". There will be some Atom processors [1] that won't be able > to tell the difference between an inner link and an outer link. and we're back to the duplicate bandwidth problem again :-( > If you combine this with the requirement that an inner link with the same > type and hreflang as the outer link must be bit-for-bit identical, we could > cover the other use-case of multiple download sources. So far, no new > elements or attributes necessary. what about the use case of alternate formats (etc) for the same resource? > Not sure about the legality. not legal, since atom:link cannot appear there ie. while atom:link (the container) can contain foreign markup, atom:link (the embedded) is not foreign markup. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 20:22:38 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUCaM-00066n-0S for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 20:22:38 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA07254 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 20:22:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9P0EcXB024550; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:14:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9P0EcB3024549; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:14:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9P0EaYa024543 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:14:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:16:37 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:14:25 +1000 Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20051024221302.GD23601@klangraum> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9P0EcYa024544 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id UAA07254 On 25/10/05 8:13 AM, "A. Pagaltzis" wrote: > You have to split on whitespace; that=B9s much easier in my book > than finding a nodeset of nested elements and iterating over it. I recall people screaming about "micro-parsers" before for a different attribute. Has anything changed? e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 22:46:49 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUEpt-00043C-AR for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:46:49 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA12589 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:46:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9P2ejDt036987; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 19:40:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9P2eje4036983; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 19:40:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9P2egE5036936 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 19:40:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:42:12 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:39:59 +1000 Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20051024194816.GA23330@klangraum> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 25/10/05 5:48 AM, "A. Pagaltzis" wrote: > rel="enclosure" type="audio/mpeg" > href="http://example.com/file.mp3" > encl:mirrors="http://www2.example.com/file.mp3 > http://www3.example.com/file.mp3" > xml:id="x-file" > /> > rel="alternative-enclosure" type="application/ogg" > href="http://example2.com/file.ogg" > encl:alternative-to="x-file" > /> -1 ... this is starting to get ugly. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 24 23:19:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUFLB-0007dl-0l for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 23:19:09 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA14973 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 23:18:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9P3CoNd039889; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 20:12:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9P3CoLd039888; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 20:12:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9P3Cm9d039880 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 20:12:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id d9so412857qbd for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 20:12:48 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=eeunYsPONnMdk+4yK+vy4OUkSLFk/k+efqyNrxd6nKUlfKw3CrMhsbsEayP9PrMhoLoXWSp1kp51YF6Z6RoknJQFmNSYoAIIK36LqafIV4XWjTeFuD5BD6kPVLMWZ/GLQdkvutZQqqcWmuiLHBo6XQyz2pU089PeP6EjLv9evcU= Received: by 10.65.236.16 with SMTP id n16mr989728qbr; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 20:12:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id f14sm752810qba.2005.10.24.20.12.41; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 20:12:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <435DA29F.8030307@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 20:12:31 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Scheid CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Scheid wrote: >On 25/10/05 5:48 AM, "A. Pagaltzis" wrote: > > > >>> rel="enclosure" type="audio/mpeg" >> href="http://example.com/file.mp3" >> encl:mirrors="http://www2.example.com/file.mp3 >>http://www3.example.com/file.mp3" >> xml:id="x-file" >> /> >>> rel="alternative-enclosure" type="application/ogg" >> href="http://example2.com/file.ogg" >> encl:alternative-to="x-file" >> /> >> >> > >-1 ... this is starting to get ugly. > > >e. > > > > +1 to Eric's -1. Let's keep it simple. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 25 00:05:16 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUG3o-00076v-Lc for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:05:16 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA17359 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:05:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9P3x99r045762; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 20:59:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9P3x9qC045760; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 20:59:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9P3x7H8045748 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 20:59:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 25 Oct 2005 03:59:01 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-246-141.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.246.141] by mail.gmx.net (mp023) with SMTP; 25 Oct 2005 05:59:01 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 05:59:23 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions Message-ID: <20051025035923.GA24567@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <435A576B.7060904@gmail.com> <20051024194816.GA23330@klangraum> <9FE77F88-C654-4343-8315-19398BAD0F63@geckotribe.com> <20051024205932.GA23601@klangraum> <201973B7-66BE-4D6A-8E99-5C85CFB578AA@geckotribe.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201973B7-66BE-4D6A-8E99-5C85CFB578AA@geckotribe.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id AAA17359 * Antone Roundy [2005-10-25 00:35]: > 2) You can break lines between elements, but you can't inside > an attribute, so it's better for display for humans. That=E2=80=99s not what the XML spec says. > What if someday somebody does come up with a non-enclosure use > for this (which hardly seems far-fetched to me--enclosures > aren't the only things that get mirrored or exist in multiple > formats)? They'll have to define a new mechanism for it which > is either going to be identical except for element names, or > they're going to invent another way to do the same thing. > Either way, the pain of supporting both is completely > unnecessary unless there's potential for generality causing > problems. If it isn=E2=80=99t obvious from the start what it means that there=E2=80= =99s an alternative-link for a via link or a previous or next link, then clients will have to support each of these use case separately. So on the implementor=E2=80=99s end, there=E2=80=99s no disce= rnible difference between the pain of supporting either approach. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 25 00:28:06 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUGPu-0005tH-Av for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:28:06 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA18566 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:27:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9P4LY40047774; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:21:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9P4LY9S047773; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:21:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9P4LXd9047760 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:21:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2005102504211201100rukrie>; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 04:21:17 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: <20051025035923.GA24567@klangraum> References: <435A576B.7060904@gmail.com> <20051024194816.GA23330@klangraum> <9FE77F88-C654-4343-8315-19398BAD0F63@geckotribe.com> <20051024205932.GA23601@klangraum> <201973B7-66BE-4D6A-8E99-5C85CFB578AA@geckotribe.com> <20051025035923.GA24567@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <9C9275A9-F34F-409C-AAC5-DF54D19E64CF@geckotribe.com> From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:21:11 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9P4LYd9047768 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id AAA18566 On Oct 24, 2005, at 9:59 PM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > * Antone Roundy [2005-10-25 00:35]: >> 2) You can break lines between elements, but you can't inside >> an attribute, so it's better for display for humans. > That=92s not what the XML spec says. Doh! Who knows where I got that idea. I still prefer to have each =20 piece of data in it's own place. >> What if someday somebody does come up with a non-enclosure use >> for this (which hardly seems far-fetched to me--enclosures >> aren't the only things that get mirrored or exist in multiple >> formats)? They'll have to define a new mechanism for it which >> is either going to be identical except for element names, or >> they're going to invent another way to do the same thing. >> Either way, the pain of supporting both is completely >> unnecessary unless there's potential for generality causing >> problems. > > If it isn=92t obvious from the start what it means that there=92s > an alternative-link for a via link or a previous or next link, > then clients will have to support each of these use case > separately. So on the implementor=92s end, there=92s no discernible > difference between the pain of supporting either approach. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Are you saying that =20 one might do this if they want and alternate of a "next" link? If that's what you mean, then sure, the code for that would be the =20 same as for: ...but it would sure look odd. I see no advantage to naming these =20 things in terms of enclosures. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 25 00:35:51 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUGXP-0000sz-JI for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:35:51 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA18846 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:35:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9P4OxXQ048196; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:24:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9P4Oxf8048195; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:24:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9P4OwqY048189 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:24:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:26:54 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:24:41 +1000 Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <435DA29F.8030307@gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 25/10/05 1:12 PM, "James M Snell" wrote: > +1 to Eric's -1. Let's keep it simple. > > > > I'm also liking it from another angle... With some of the other approaches dumb clients do harm to others, and while smart clients do no harm they don't get anything which dumb clients already get. With this approach dumb clients do no harm, and smart clients gain benefits not available to dumb clients. It sets up the right ecological pressures for the market to evolve in a way which is beneficial. So while "let the market/implementations decide" is often persuasive, we really should at the same time be asking what environment/ecology are we establishing for this evolution. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 25 00:36:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUGXh-000179-Ju for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:36:09 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA18855 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:35:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9P4VHfu049136; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:31:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9P4VHWS049135; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:31:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9P4VGmW049128 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:31:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:33:17 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:31:05 +1000 Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20051024221302.GD23601@klangraum> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9P4VHmW049130 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id AAA18855 On 25/10/05 8:13 AM, "A. Pagaltzis" wrote: >> If you want a concrete reason, it requires extra parsing >> whereas everything else would be automatically parsed by the >> XML library. >=20 > You have to split on whitespace; that=B9s much easier in my book > than finding a nodeset of nested elements and iterating over it. There's another problem with this: > @encl:mirrors=3D"http://www2.example.com/file.mp3 > http://www3.example.com/file.mp3" ... how do you attach @title to each URI, for example @title=3D"Blah blah -- European Mirror". e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 25 03:08:59 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUIvb-0006o6-0y for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 03:08:59 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA25919 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 03:08:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9P6x3Nc065460; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 23:59:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9P6x3YW065459; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 23:59:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9P6x1Rl065442 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 23:59:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 25 Oct 2005 06:58:55 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-246-141.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.246.141] by mail.gmx.net (mp029) with SMTP; 25 Oct 2005 08:58:55 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 08:59:17 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions Message-ID: <20051025065917.GA26130@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <435A576B.7060904@gmail.com> <20051024194816.GA23330@klangraum> <9FE77F88-C654-4343-8315-19398BAD0F63@geckotribe.com> <20051024205932.GA23601@klangraum> <201973B7-66BE-4D6A-8E99-5C85CFB578AA@geckotribe.com> <20051025035923.GA24567@klangraum> <9C9275A9-F34F-409C-AAC5-DF54D19E64CF@geckotribe.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9C9275A9-F34F-409C-AAC5-DF54D19E64CF@geckotribe.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id DAA25919 * Antone Roundy [2005-10-25 06:30]: > I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Are you saying > that one might do this if they want and alternate of a "next" > link? >=20 > > No, not at all. > If that's what you mean, then sure, the code for that would be > the same as for: >=20 > > >=20 > ...but it would sure look odd. I see no advantage to naming > these things in terms of enclosures. I am asking if is there a generic way for an application to implement alternate-link processing that gives sensible behaviour for any type of main link. If an implementor has to support alternative links explicitly for each type of main link, where=E2=80=99s the difference to having specific relationships for alternative links depending on the main link type? Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 25 03:14:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUJ0Z-00009N-Vh for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 03:14:08 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA26111 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 03:13:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9P76V3p066089; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:06:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9P76VOA066088; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:06:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9P76TqD066067 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:06:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 25 Oct 2005 07:06:23 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-246-141.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.246.141] by mail.gmx.net (mp030) with SMTP; 25 Oct 2005 09:06:23 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:06:46 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions Message-ID: <20051025070646.GB26130@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <20051024221302.GD23601@klangraum> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id DAA26111 * Eric Scheid [2005-10-25 06:35]: > There's another problem with this: >=20 > > @encl:mirrors=3D"http://www2.example.com/file.mp3 > > http://www3.example.com/file.mp3" >=20 > ... how do you attach @title to each URI, >=20 > for example @title=3D"Blah blah -- European Mirror". You can=E2=80=99t. My assumption was that supplying divergent metadata for what are supposed to be bit-for-bit copies of a file is not particularly useful, whereas having no such option serves as a hint that the copies are not to be considered as independent entities. Is providing a @title an option that a lot of people would use and/or someone out there cannot do without? Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 25 03:28:05 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUJE4-0005MZ-Tw for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 03:28:05 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA26923 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 03:27:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9P7H8tf067496; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:17:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9P7H8Wn067495; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:17:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9P7H81I067489 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:17:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 58970 invoked by uid 17064); 25 Oct 2005 07:17:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [IPv6:::1]) ([85.70.129.143]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 25 Oct 2005 07:17:07 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: <20051024205932.GA23601@klangraum> References: <435A576B.7060904@gmail.com> <20051024194816.GA23330@klangraum> <9FE77F88-C654-4343-8315-19398BAD0F63@geckotribe.com> <20051024205932.GA23601@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Message-Id: From: Henry Story Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:17:05 +0200 To: "Pagaltzis A." , Syntax Atom X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9P7H81I067490 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id DAA26923 On 24 Oct 2005, at 22:59, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > > * Antone Roundy [2005-10-24 22:35]: > >> Interesting. Filling an attribute with a list of URIs doesn't >> really appeal to me though. +1000000 (me and all my co-voting cats) >> How about this: >> >> > file.mp3" xml:id=3D"x-file"> >> >> >> >> > > It=92s a lot more verbose and you have to fiddle with nesting. > > What do you get in return? =93It looks more XMLish=94? > yes!? We are using xml! > >> Sounds good, but you may have noticed above that I used a >> prefix not specific to enclosures--there's no reason to tie >> this all to one particular type of link (nor to make it look >> as if it were tied to one specific link type). So the other >> link might, for example, be: >> > > I don=92t know if striving for generality in this fashion without > a practical need is worthwhile. It smells of architecture > astronautics for a reason I can=92t particularly pinpoint. So maybe > my instinct is wrong. maybe :-) A million cats can't be wrong. > > >> Note that I changed "alternative-to" to "primary" just because >> it's shorter and one word. >> > > Works for me. > > Regards, > --=20 > Aristotle Pagaltzis // > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 25 03:42:58 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUJSU-00027F-Ft for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 03:42:58 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA27491 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 03:42:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9P7WL8k070017; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:32:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9P7WLm6070016; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:32:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9P7WJ9e069962 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:32:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [192.168.45.41] (210.193.203.50) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:33:50 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:31:38 +1000 Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20051025065917.GA26130@klangraum> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9P7WL9e070011 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id DAA27491 On 25/10/05 4:59 PM, "A. Pagaltzis" wrote: > I am asking if is there a generic way for an application to > implement alternate-link processing that gives sensible behaviour > for any type of main link. couldn't get more generic than that. read it as: here is a link (ooh, look, some alternate href's!) > If an implementor has to support alternative links explicitly for each = type of > main link, where=B9s the difference to having specific relationships fo= r > alternative links depending on the main link type? >=20 good point. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 25 03:43:20 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUJSq-0002Ep-Fb for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 03:43:20 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA27498 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 03:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9P7akXd070308; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:36:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9P7akSd070307; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:36:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9P7ajTn070299 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:36:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [192.168.45.41] (210.193.203.50) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:38:46 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:36:34 +1000 Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9P7akTn070302 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id DAA27498 On 25/10/05 5:17 PM, "Henry Story" wrote: >>> >> file.mp3" xml:id=3D"x-file"> >>> >>> >>> >>>=20 >>=20 >> It=B9s a lot more verbose and you have to fiddle with nesting. >>=20 >> What do you get in return? =B3It looks more XMLish=B2? >>=20 >=20 > yes!? We are using xml! not only that, but if someone wants to write another extension (gasp!), i= t would be very easy to fold it in, using native XML methods... (not that I can think of any such extensions, but why be a bastard to fut= ure inventors and innovators?) e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 25 03:47:53 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUJXF-000392-PX for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 03:47:53 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA27629 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 03:47:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9P7bXZ1070390; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:37:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9P7bX5K070389; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:37:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9P7bVSj070379 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:37:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [192.168.45.41] (210.193.203.50) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:39:33 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:37:20 +1000 Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20051025070646.GB26130@klangraum> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 25/10/05 5:06 PM, "A. Pagaltzis" wrote: > Is providing a @title an option that a lot of people would use > and/or someone out there cannot do without? In Atom 1.0 .... not enough deployment to say In HTML ... *lots* of current practice of labelling mirrors with the org name and/or location. Lots. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 25 11:39:53 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUQu1-0005lm-6M for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:39:53 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA00296 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:39:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9PFX13p014574; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 08:33:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9PFX1Al014573; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 08:33:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc14.comcast.net [216.148.227.89]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9PFX17o014563 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 08:33:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc14) with SMTP id <20051025153245014006bufte>; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:32:46 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: <20051025065917.GA26130@klangraum> References: <435A576B.7060904@gmail.com> <20051024194816.GA23330@klangraum> <9FE77F88-C654-4343-8315-19398BAD0F63@geckotribe.com> <20051024205932.GA23601@klangraum> <201973B7-66BE-4D6A-8E99-5C85CFB578AA@geckotribe.com> <20051025035923.GA24567@klangraum> <9C9275A9-F34F-409C-AAC5-DF54D19E64CF@geckotribe.com> <20051025065917.GA26130@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <84CC2230-21DC-4962-9762-9DC94E2DDFF7@geckotribe.com> From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:32:44 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9PFX17o014568 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id LAA00296 On Oct 25, 2005, at 12:59 AM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > I am asking if is there a generic way for an application to > implement alternate-link processing that gives sensible behaviour > for any type of main link. If an implementor has to support > alternative links explicitly for each type of main link, where=92s > the difference to having specific relationships for alternative > links depending on the main link type? Here are a few examples of generic processing algorithms an =20 application might use: Mirrors: 1) Randomly selecting a mirror to download from, thus helping to =20 spread the bandwidth usage among them. 2) Try the main link, and if the DNS lookup fails, or a connection =20 can't be made or something, automatically try the next one. 3) Ping each of the servers in the background, and if the user clicks =20 the link, use the fastest one. Alternates: 1) Have a prioritized list of formats, and choose the link that =20 points to the highest priority format. 2) Of all the formats the app supports, choose the one with the =20 smallest @length, if present. Either one: 1) Show some sort of UI for selecting which link to follow (perhaps =20 have the main link selected by default, but allow the user to select =20 an alternate from the popup). None of those ideas is necessarily tied to any particular link =20 relation. They might be more important for enclosures than any of =20 the other relations that have been defined so far, and an application =20 may or may not do some for enclosures that it doesn't do for some =20 other specific link relations. But again, it comes back to the yet =20 unanswered question, are there any disadvantages to keeping it =20 generic? I haven't heard anyone suggest any downside yet--only that =20 some people can't imagine why anyone would want to use alternative =20 links for anything but enclosures. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 25 13:11:03 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUSKF-0001NN-2W for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:11:03 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA06340 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:10:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9PH4gvg025592; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:04:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9PH4gRW025591; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:04:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from qproxy.gmail.com (qproxy.gmail.com [72.14.204.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9PH4d41025582 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:04:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id d9so577552qbd for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:04:38 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Oy0l3t9/mF4uyyCiSTXQFS1JYUQGh9+14JTWuqMvnuqcC179OqvToVrBaknmg6A0TkvrnfwuaVpZG05zY35+npiB79J7cgLFEtraxZg8xK1pygYh3W28pHV5v0ETivXxl1G41dnFRfrN5WfzN1ahWbj6uCPHzY+e9bsEGFlDGdM= Received: by 10.65.196.14 with SMTP id y14mr1578883qbp; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id d5sm952219qbd.2005.10.25.10.04.38; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <435E659C.30901@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:04:28 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions References: <435A576B.7060904@gmail.com> <20051024194816.GA23330@klangraum> <9FE77F88-C654-4343-8315-19398BAD0F63@geckotribe.com> <20051024205932.GA23601@klangraum> <201973B7-66BE-4D6A-8E99-5C85CFB578AA@geckotribe.com> <20051025035923.GA24567@klangraum> <9C9275A9-F34F-409C-AAC5-DF54D19E64CF@geckotribe.com> <20051025065917.GA26130@klangraum> <84CC2230-21DC-4962-9762-9DC94E2DDFF7@geckotribe.com> In-Reply-To: <84CC2230-21DC-4962-9762-9DC94E2DDFF7@geckotribe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hmmm... > > Mirrors: > > Alternates: > All-in-one example The x:group attribute links the two alternates into a single grouping; the x:mirror specifies the mirrors for each link. nf:follow="no" is my Atom Link No Follow extension that tells clients not to automatically download the enclosure. Dumb clients will see what amounts to the current status quo, two different enclosures of different types. Smart clients will see the mirrors, the grouping and the no-follow instruction. Thoughts? - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 25 14:25:45 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUTUW-00061i-FL for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:25:45 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA10771 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:25:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9PIIcVx033171; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:18:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9PIIcXi033170; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:18:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [216.148.227.118]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9PIIcMS033162 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:18:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <2005102518183001500rhft1e>; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 18:18:31 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: <435E659C.30901@gmail.com> References: <435A576B.7060904@gmail.com> <20051024194816.GA23330@klangraum> <9FE77F88-C654-4343-8315-19398BAD0F63@geckotribe.com> <20051024205932.GA23601@klangraum> <201973B7-66BE-4D6A-8E99-5C85CFB578AA@geckotribe.com> <20051025035923.GA24567@klangraum> <9C9275A9-F34F-409C-AAC5-DF54D19E64CF@geckotribe.com> <20051025065917.GA26130@klangraum> <84CC2230-21DC-4962-9762-9DC94E2DDFF7@geckotribe.com> <435E659C.30901@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <48947C9C-3A46-4FD5-A5C1-B85C8BEAB763@geckotribe.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:18:29 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Oct 25, 2005, at 11:04 AM, James M Snell wrote: > All-in-one example > > The x:group attribute links the two alternates into a single > grouping; the x:mirror specifies the mirrors for each link. > nf:follow="no" is my Atom Link No Follow extension that tells > clients not to automatically download the enclosure. Dumb clients > will see what amounts to the current status quo, two different > enclosures of different types. Smart clients will see the mirrors, > the grouping and the no-follow instruction. > > type="application/zip" x:group="software-package" nf:follow="no"> > title="California Server" /> > title="European Server" /> > > > title="California Server" /> > title="European Server" /> > > > Thoughts? The only thing I would change is the name of x:mirror/@title to make it clear that it isn't intended(?) to replace the parent link's @title. My current favorite name is "label". From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 25 14:51:47 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUTtj-0000ct-4I for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:51:47 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA12227 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:51:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9PIiiV3035567; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:44:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9PIiiwF035566; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:44:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav22.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.94]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9PIii82035556 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:44:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:44:40 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV22.phx.gbl with DAV; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 18:44:40 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: References: <435A576B.7060904@gmail.com> <20051024194816.GA23330@klangraum> <9FE77F88-C654-4343-8315-19398BAD0F63@geckotribe.com> <20051024205932.GA23601@klangraum> <201973B7-66BE-4D6A-8E99-5C85CFB578AA@geckotribe.com> <20051025035923.GA24567@klangraum> <9C9275A9-F34F-409C-AAC5-DF54D19E64CF@geckotribe.com> <20051025065917.GA26130@klangraum> <84CC2230-21DC-4962-9762-9DC94E2DDFF7@geckotribe.com> <435E659C.30901@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 19:45:49 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Oct 2005 18:44:40.0673 (UTC) FILETIME=[286FCD10:01C5D994] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James M Snell wrote: > type="application/zip" x:group="software-package" nf:follow="no"> > title="California Server" /> > > > type="application/x-gzip" x:group="software-package" nf:follow="no"> > title="California Server" /> > title="European Server" /> > I'm not quite clear how the nofollow attribute is supposed to work here. If a feed producer wants to allow automatic downloads, but is providing the file in multiple formats (only one of which is needed) how should that be expressed? As you have it at the moment, the client can't auto-download at all. Should he just leave nofollow off and rely on the client to download only one? Also, assuming the title on the main link is supposed to describe the download file itself, there appears to be no way to inform the user of the mirror location of the main URI. Without a location name of some sort, the user can't make an informed decision about which mirror would be best to use. Perhaps something along the line of Antone's "label" suggestion might help here. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 25 15:25:13 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUUQ3-0005lo-BO for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:25:13 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14176 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:24:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9PJGlU1039726; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:16:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9PJGlTt039725; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:16:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from xproxy.gmail.com (xproxy.gmail.com [66.249.82.195]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9PJGkqH039718 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:16:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id s16so1247647wxc for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:16:46 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=aXDAAUZ6jGKxh/dsKHjf28vmy16GrVlSHxXPfwQWIOkc5u5CTG4+KDGi2Hvl/aqRIi0+Pd8LtK07ygMz7bJflYLUOGMCtlrnAp9cMLXtiWOi+JqNppS6uHVkzkZbLfc5rGzbZuUe/+LjR4PsrxdWVIvqOo47eG20EbSklPmR7gA= Received: by 10.65.244.16 with SMTP id w16mr1715qbr; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id q17sm926877qbq.2005.10.25.12.16.45; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:16:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <435E8494.1010306@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:16:36 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Holderness CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions References: <435A576B.7060904@gmail.com> <20051024194816.GA23330@klangraum> <9FE77F88-C654-4343-8315-19398BAD0F63@geckotribe.com> <20051024205932.GA23601@klangraum> <201973B7-66BE-4D6A-8E99-5C85CFB578AA@geckotribe.com> <20051025035923.GA24567@klangraum> <9C9275A9-F34F-409C-AAC5-DF54D19E64CF@geckotribe.com> <20051025065917.GA26130@klangraum> <84CC2230-21DC-4962-9762-9DC94E2DDFF7@geckotribe.com> <435E659C.30901@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Holderness wrote: > > James M Snell wrote: > >> > type="application/zip" x:group="software-package" nf:follow="no"> >> > title="California Server" /> >> > title="European Server" /> >> >> > href="http://example.com/softwarepackage.tar.gz" >> type="application/x-gzip" x:group="software-package" nf:follow="no"> >> > title="California Server" /> >> > title="European Server" /> >> > > > I'm not quite clear how the nofollow attribute is supposed to work > here. If a feed producer wants to allow automatic downloads, but is > providing the file in multiple formats (only one of which is needed) > how should that be expressed? As you have it at the moment, the client > can't auto-download at all. Should he just leave nofollow off and rely > on the client to download only one? > In this particular example yes. The idea was to demonstrate that there are means by which smart client behavior can be controlled given the concerns about potential bandwidth abuse. Dumb clients continue to act the way they would today. > Also, assuming the title on the main link is supposed to describe the > download file itself, there appears to be no way to inform the user of > the mirror location of the main URI. Without a location name of some > sort, the user can't make an informed decision about which mirror > would be best to use. Perhaps something along the line of Antone's > "label" suggestion might help here. > I could just do this: - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 25 15:36:33 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUUb3-0000Xy-OO for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:36:33 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14774 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:36:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9PJQnad040856; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:26:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9PJQn6R040855; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:26:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9PJQmSg040847 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:26:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-169-250-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.169.250.63]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <2005102519264301500rjsb8e>; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 19:26:43 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: <435E8494.1010306@gmail.com> References: <435A576B.7060904@gmail.com> <20051024194816.GA23330@klangraum> <9FE77F88-C654-4343-8315-19398BAD0F63@geckotribe.com> <20051024205932.GA23601@klangraum> <201973B7-66BE-4D6A-8E99-5C85CFB578AA@geckotribe.com> <20051025035923.GA24567@klangraum> <9C9275A9-F34F-409C-AAC5-DF54D19E64CF@geckotribe.com> <20051025065917.GA26130@klangraum> <84CC2230-21DC-4962-9762-9DC94E2DDFF7@geckotribe.com> <435E659C.30901@gmail.com> <435E8494.1010306@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:26:41 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Oct 25, 2005, at 1:16 PM, James M Snell wrote: >> Also, assuming the title on the main link is supposed to describe >> the download file itself, there appears to be no way to inform the >> user of the mirror location of the main URI. Without a location >> name of some sort, the user can't make an informed decision about >> which mirror would be best to use. Perhaps something along the >> line of Antone's "label" suggestion might help here. >> >> > I could just do this: > > > label="Main Server" /> > label="California Server" /> > label="European Server" /> > > or this: From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 25 16:21:21 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUVIN-0006Ua-Lt for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:21:21 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA26131 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:21:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9PK8eof044118; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:08:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9PK8euP044117; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:08:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.199]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9PK8eUu044111 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:08:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id v1so1010826nzb for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:08:40 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=IC9Bk3BdIZBA/q8YphIncBSqsCtVXudHZoW1wbH1i4MW7K43lpy21I08KYayy1XaSiZJdHKt9BSb4fB0H+lsLqGCLv68hFoRFBPSDqaVm0df+GEOwdDLDczxsXnRfhKGgMbnFF1hjcWYpB6uAqlicYaEuAI06zX5AytOHSvqMEw= Received: by 10.36.42.4 with SMTP id p4mr124534nzp; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:08:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 19sm2211563nzp.2005.10.25.13.08.36; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:08:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <435E90BB.808@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:08:27 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henry Story CC: Syntax Atom Subject: Re: icon and logo on entry References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been wanting to do the same thing for link elements. Let's propose a single solution: {url} {url} {url} {url} Both elements should follow the exact same rules as the existing atom:logo and atom:icon elements. - James Henry Story wrote: > > I'd like to propose an extension that would allow something very much > like > icon and logo to be added to an entry, the way it currently is > allowed on a feed. > I have been publishing entries like this for over a year now [1], and > so has > James Gosling [2], and other users of BlogEd. It would be really nice > to keep > this semantic information in the feed somehow. > > Perhaps something like: > > > > Example Feed > > 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z > > John Doe > > urn:uuid:60a76c80-d399-11d9-b93C-0003939e0af6 > ./Image1-large.jpeg > ./Image1-small.jpeg > > Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok > ./Image5-large.jpeg > ./Image5-small.jpeg > > urn:uuid:1225c695-cfb8-4ebb-aaaa-80da344efa6a > 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z > Some text. > > > > Though from what I have said in other posts about relative uris in > extension elements I suppose it would be better to have a new link type. > > Any ideas? > > Henry > > [1] http://bblfish.net/blog/ > http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/bblfish/ > [2] http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/jag/ > > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 25 16:11:39 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUV91-0001O8-1d for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:11:39 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA23029 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:11:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9PJwV7e043132; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:58:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9PJwVdF043131; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:58:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9PJwUbg043125 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:58:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 97964 invoked by uid 17064); 25 Oct 2005 19:58:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [IPv6:::1]) ([85.70.129.143]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 25 Oct 2005 19:58:29 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: Syntax Atom From: Henry Story Subject: icon and logo on entry Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:58:27 +0200 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd like to propose an extension that would allow something very much like icon and logo to be added to an entry, the way it currently is allowed on a feed. I have been publishing entries like this for over a year now [1], and so has James Gosling [2], and other users of BlogEd. It would be really nice to keep this semantic information in the feed somehow. Perhaps something like: Example Feed 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z John Doe urn:uuid:60a76c80-d399-11d9-b93C-0003939e0af6 ./Image1-large.jpeg ./Image1-small.jpeg Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok ./Image5-large.jpeg ./Image5-small.jpeg urn:uuid:1225c695-cfb8-4ebb-aaaa-80da344efa6a 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z Some text. Though from what I have said in other posts about relative uris in extension elements I suppose it would be better to have a new link type. Any ideas? Henry [1] http://bblfish.net/blog/ http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/bblfish/ [2] http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/jag/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 25 16:28:52 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUVPf-0002yV-TB for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:28:52 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA29087 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:28:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9PKO7tt045627; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:24:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9PKO7KD045626; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:24:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9PKO7TW045620 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:24:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 7338 invoked by uid 17064); 25 Oct 2005 20:24:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [IPv6:::1]) ([85.70.129.143]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 25 Oct 2005 20:24:06 -0000 In-Reply-To: <435E90BB.808@gmail.com> References: <435E90BB.808@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Syntax Atom Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: icon and logo on entry Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 22:23:59 +0200 To: James M Snell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 25 Oct 2005, at 22:08, James M Snell wrote: > > I've been wanting to do the same thing for link elements. Nice :-) > Let's propose a single solution: > > > {url} > {url} > > {url} > {url} > > Is the above a single solution, or two solutions? I can't quite tell the difference. Would they (it?) be equivalent to the following: Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok urn:uuid:1225c695-cfb8-4ebb-aaaa-80da344efa6a 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z Some text. I would think the media type is very much optional here. > Both elements should follow the exact same rules as the existing > atom:logo and atom:icon elements. Do you mean rules, or do you mean semantics? (ie: we just copy and paste the text from the atom syntax doc, replacing feed with entry) Henry > > - James > > Henry Story wrote: > > >> >> I'd like to propose an extension that would allow something very >> much like >> icon and logo to be added to an entry, the way it currently is >> allowed on a feed. >> I have been publishing entries like this for over a year now [1], >> and so has >> James Gosling [2], and other users of BlogEd. It would be really >> nice to keep >> this semantic information in the feed somehow. >> >> Perhaps something like: >> >> >> >> Example Feed >> >> 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z >> >> John Doe >> >> urn:uuid:60a76c80-d399-11d9-b93C-0003939e0af6 >> ./Image1-large.jpeg >> ./Image1-small.jpeg >> >> Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok >> ./Image5-large.jpeg >> ./Image5-small.jpeg >> >> urn:uuid:1225c695-cfb8-4ebb-aaaa-80da344efa6a >> 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z >> Some text. >> >> >> >> Though from what I have said in other posts about relative uris in >> extension elements I suppose it would be better to have a new link >> type. >> >> Any ideas? >> >> Henry >> >> [1] http://bblfish.net/blog/ >> http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/bblfish/ >> [2] http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/jag/ >> >> >> >> > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 25 16:36:26 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUVWz-0008GI-TH for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:36:26 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA02684 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:36:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9PKU71Y046138; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:30:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9PKU6Cb046136; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:30:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9PKU6s0046130 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:30:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 9195 invoked by uid 17064); 25 Oct 2005 20:30:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [IPv6:::1]) ([85.70.129.143]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 25 Oct 2005 20:30:06 -0000 In-Reply-To: References: <435E90BB.808@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <85D5C935-61C1-4635-8C96-A557D441F952@bblfish.net> Cc: Snell James Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: icon and logo on entry Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 22:30:04 +0200 To: Syntax Atom X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oh I think I get it now. You want to specify the logo and icon of a resource on the other side of a link. So generalizing the suggestion: Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok urn:uuid:1225c695-cfb8-4ebb-aaaa-80da344efa6a 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z Some text. Makes sense to me. Henry http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/bblfish/ On 25 Oct 2005, at 22:23, Henry Story wrote: > > > On 25 Oct 2005, at 22:08, James M Snell wrote: > > >> >> I've been wanting to do the same thing for link elements. >> > > Nice :-) > > >> Let's propose a single solution: >> >> >> {url} >> {url} >> >> {url} >> {url} >> >> >> > > Is the above a single solution, or two solutions? I can't quite > tell the > difference. > > Would they (it?) be equivalent to the following: > > > Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok > > > > urn:uuid:1225c695-cfb8-4ebb-aaaa-80da344efa6a > 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z > Some text. > > > I would think the media type is very much optional here. > > > >> Both elements should follow the exact same rules as the existing >> atom:logo and atom:icon elements. >> > > Do you mean rules, or do you mean semantics? (ie: we just copy and > paste the text > from the atom syntax doc, replacing feed with entry) > > > > Henry > > >> >> - James >> >> Henry Story wrote: >> >> >> >>> >>> I'd like to propose an extension that would allow something very >>> much like >>> icon and logo to be added to an entry, the way it currently is >>> allowed on a feed. >>> I have been publishing entries like this for over a year now [1], >>> and so has >>> James Gosling [2], and other users of BlogEd. It would be really >>> nice to keep >>> this semantic information in the feed somehow. >>> >>> Perhaps something like: >>> >>> >>> >>> Example Feed >>> >>> 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z >>> >>> John Doe >>> >>> urn:uuid:60a76c80-d399-11d9-b93C-0003939e0af6 >>> ./Image1-large.jpeg >>> ./Image1-small.jpeg >>> >>> Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok >>> ./Image5-large.jpeg >>> ./Image5-small.jpeg >>> >>> urn:uuid:1225c695-cfb8-4ebb-aaaa-80da344efa6a >>> 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z >>> Some text. >>> >>> >>> >>> Though from what I have said in other posts about relative uris in >>> extension elements I suppose it would be better to have a new >>> link type. >>> >>> Any ideas? >>> >>> Henry >>> >>> [1] http://bblfish.net/blog/ >>> http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/bblfish/ >>> [2] http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/jag/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 25 16:38:39 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUVZ9-0001RB-4V for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:38:39 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA03466 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:38:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9PKWOBq046333; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:32:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9PKWOHc046332; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:32:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from xproxy.gmail.com (xproxy.gmail.com [66.249.82.196]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9PKWNTF046325 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:32:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id s7so4963wxc for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:32:19 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=XcbRsig3L81TLloqxpzvjMAE3cMUmoolCq6MIEJdQyrGhFH6alG0tJYSBC8p0Vt4KCxR54OpyyUGDq0DJUL75uQQxJdnvgnpYrHJ0WN8NPIr66xb2/ynRLe8zm6mPtuiouL1mYT5ksx7TgvACk6tXJzVgbWibK3YJOBzaYnS4/4= Received: by 10.64.249.4 with SMTP id w4mr79359qbh; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:32:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e15sm7604qba.2005.10.25.13.32.18; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:32:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <435E9649.2040704@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:32:09 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henry Story CC: Syntax Atom Subject: Re: icon and logo on entry References: <435E90BB.808@gmail.com> <85D5C935-61C1-4635-8C96-A557D441F952@bblfish.net> In-Reply-To: <85D5C935-61C1-4635-8C96-A557D441F952@bblfish.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yep.. the only challenge with your example is that atom:link's should not contain atom:link's... Henry Story wrote: > Oh I think I get it now. You want to specify the logo and icon of a > resource > on the other side of a link. > > > So generalizing the suggestion: > > > Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok > > > > > > > urn:uuid:1225c695-cfb8-4ebb-aaaa-80da344efa6a > 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z > Some text. > > > Makes sense to me. > > > Henry > http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/bblfish/ > > On 25 Oct 2005, at 22:23, Henry Story wrote: > >> >> >> On 25 Oct 2005, at 22:08, James M Snell wrote: >> >> >>> >>> I've been wanting to do the same thing for link elements. >>> >> >> Nice :-) >> >> >>> Let's propose a single solution: >>> >>> >>> {url} >>> {url} >>> >>> {url} >>> {url} >>> >>> >>> >> >> Is the above a single solution, or two solutions? I can't quite tell >> the >> difference. >> >> Would they (it?) be equivalent to the following: >> >> >> Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok >> >> >> >> urn:uuid:1225c695-cfb8-4ebb-aaaa-80da344efa6a >> 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z >> Some text. >> >> >> I would think the media type is very much optional here. >> >> >> >>> Both elements should follow the exact same rules as the existing >>> atom:logo and atom:icon elements. >>> >> >> Do you mean rules, or do you mean semantics? (ie: we just copy and >> paste the text >> from the atom syntax doc, replacing feed with entry) >> >> >> >> Henry >> >> >>> >>> - James >>> >>> Henry Story wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> I'd like to propose an extension that would allow something very >>>> much like >>>> icon and logo to be added to an entry, the way it currently is >>>> allowed on a feed. >>>> I have been publishing entries like this for over a year now [1], >>>> and so has >>>> James Gosling [2], and other users of BlogEd. It would be really >>>> nice to keep >>>> this semantic information in the feed somehow. >>>> >>>> Perhaps something like: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Example Feed >>>> >>>> 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z >>>> >>>> John Doe >>>> >>>> urn:uuid:60a76c80-d399-11d9-b93C-0003939e0af6 >>>> ./Image1-large.jpeg >>>> ./Image1-small.jpeg >>>> >>>> Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok >>>> ./Image5-large.jpeg >>>> ./Image5-small.jpeg >>>> >>>> urn:uuid:1225c695-cfb8-4ebb-aaaa-80da344efa6a >>>> 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z >>>> Some text. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Though from what I have said in other posts about relative uris in >>>> extension elements I suppose it would be better to have a new link >>>> type. >>>> >>>> Any ideas? >>>> >>>> Henry >>>> >>>> [1] http://bblfish.net/blog/ >>>> http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/bblfish/ >>>> [2] http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/jag/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 25 17:35:49 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUWSS-00067V-Rj for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:35:49 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA16172 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:35:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9PLTAwZ052203; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:29:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9PLTA21052202; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:29:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mX1.myOutlookonline.com (mx1.MyOutlookOnline.com [69.25.74.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9PLT91R052193 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:29:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from byrne@sixapart.com) Received: from be022.mail.lan ([10.109.209.122]) by mX1.myOutlookonline.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:09:12 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Unofficial Last Call - draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-04.txt Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:09:18 -0400 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Unofficial Last Call - draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-04.txt Thread-Index: AcXXGVaOjw34IaQGQ3W39DNzGqCaOwCjp1Ng From: "Byrne Reese" To: "James M Snell" , "James Holderness" Cc: "Atom Syntax" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Oct 2005 21:09:12.0020 (UTC) FILETIME=[58F65940:01C5D9A8] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9PLT91R052197 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Any chance this specification could be extended to contain meta data about the replies? Specifically, how many replies that may exist for a given entry? I would love a mechanism to be able to recreate: --- cut here --- POST TITLE Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Donec sit amet nisl. Morbi pretium ultrices sapien. Mauris pretium ultrices odio. Duis mauris. Aliquam est. Posted by: Byrne on Dec 15, 2005 Comments (10) --- cut here --- Perhaps? > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org > [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of James M Snell > Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 7:45 AM > To: James Holderness > Cc: Atom Syntax > Subject: Re: Unofficial Last Call - > draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-04.txt > > > Ah crap, that's what I get for editing multiple docs at once. > It's supposed to be -01 and -02. I'll get that fixed. The > -01 is the current version; the new version waiting to > publish has no significant updates (just some minor typo > stuff) so you should safely be able to base your feedback on > the -01 version. > > James Holderness wrote: > > > > >> [1] draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-03.txt (current version) [2] > >> draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-04.txt (new version waiting to > >> publish... no significant changes) > > > > > > Do you have a link for these? The only copy I could find on > ietf.org > > was -01. > > > > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 25 18:05:52 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUWvX-00059i-7A for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 18:05:52 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA18036 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 18:05:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9PLvfNg054883; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:57:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9PLvftE054882; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:57:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mX1.myOutlookonline.com (mx1.MyOutlookOnline.com [69.25.74.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9PLveIQ054872 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:57:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from byrne@sixapart.com) Received: from be022.mail.lan ([10.109.209.122]) by mX1.myOutlookonline.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:33:48 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Sponsored Links and other link extensions Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:33:55 -0400 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Sponsored Links and other link extensions Thread-Index: AcXZE1gxRV/4kGT5RMOPW0CHRc11MQAmHOpA From: "Byrne Reese" To: "James M Snell" , "Eric Scheid" Cc: "Atom Syntax" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Oct 2005 21:33:48.0720 (UTC) FILETIME=[C924E300:01C5D9AB] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9PLveIQ054877 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit +1 to James' +1 of Eric's -1. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org > [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of James M Snell > Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 8:13 PM > To: Eric Scheid > Cc: Atom Syntax > Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions > > > Eric Scheid wrote: > > >On 25/10/05 5:48 AM, "A. Pagaltzis" wrote: > > > > > > > >> >> rel="enclosure" type="audio/mpeg" > >> href="http://example.com/file.mp3" > >> encl:mirrors="http://www2.example.com/file.mp3 > >>http://www3.example.com/file.mp3" > >> xml:id="x-file" > >> /> > >> >> rel="alternative-enclosure" type="application/ogg" > >> href="http://example2.com/file.ogg" > >> encl:alternative-to="x-file" > >> /> > >> > >> > > > >-1 ... this is starting to get ugly. > > > > > >e. > > > > > > > > > +1 to Eric's -1. Let's keep it simple. > > > > > - James > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 25 20:09:31 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUYrD-0004aB-LL for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 20:09:31 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA08460 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 20:09:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9Q030Jo068161; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:03:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9Q030kE068160; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:03:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mX1.myOutlookonline.com (mx1.MyOutlookOnline.com [69.25.74.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9Q030RX068137 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:03:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from byrne@sixapart.com) Received: from be022.mail.lan ([10.109.209.122]) by mX1.myOutlookonline.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 25 Oct 2005 20:02:52 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: How to represent an authenticated identity in an tag Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 20:02:58 -0400 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: How to represent an authenticated identity in an tag Thread-Index: AcXZwJ8ssYLI3PQPSxiSD0JXNojmzw== From: "Byrne Reese" To: "Atom Syntax" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2005 00:02:52.0742 (UTC) FILETIME=[9C325660:01C5D9C0] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9Q030RX068154 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is a topic that has come up recently in conversations here at Six Apart that I thought I would share with a broader community to hear your feedback and thoughts on the subject: We see a value in representing the following attributes about an author: * their Display Name (e.g. "Byrne Reese") * their Email (why anyone would want to publish this an easily parsable document eludes me, but that is not relevant :) * their Web URL The above is accomodated by the current spec, but the following is something we would also like to represent somehow in a standard way: * their authenticated identity (e.g. "breese") and the authenticating authority (e.g. "LiveJournal," "TypeKey," "OpenID," etc.) This is more important/relevant IMHO to publishing feeds for comments (in fact I personally would not like to reveal my TypePad, MovableType, etc username to the outside world for the posts I write), where I believe knowing the authenticated entity is valuable. Part of the value I see in supporting this to provide a mechanism for determining whether a comment was an authenticated comment or not. Of course, some may think that one's username is considered private and priveleged information and should not be shared publicly. Thoughts? Byrne Reese Manager, Platform Technology http://www.sixapart.com/pronet/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 25 20:28:18 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUZ9O-0000ZZ-M9 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 20:28:18 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA09347 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 20:28:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9Q0MNOR071239; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:22:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9Q0MNSf071238; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:22:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9Q0MMlt071231 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:22:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from fe-amer-10.sun.com ([192.18.108.184]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9Q0MLD7001489 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 18:22:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.11 (built Jan 28 2005)) id <0IOX00M01Y97A300@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 18:22:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.31] ([216.113.201.135]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.11 (built Jan 28 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0IOX00I8XYD95KXE@mail-amer.sun.com>; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 18:22:21 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:23:05 -0700 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: How to represent an authenticated identity in an tag In-reply-to: To: Byrne Reese Cc: Atom Syntax Message-id: <35EDB8D0-4C0E-4AA5-9359-442FC53394C6@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Oct 25, 2005, at 5:02 PM, Byrne Reese wrote: > The above is accomodated by the current spec, but the following is > something we would also like to represent somehow in a standard way: > > * their authenticated identity (e.g. "breese") and the authenticating > authority (e.g. "LiveJournal," "TypeKey," "OpenID," etc.) Sounds like an obvious candidate for an exception; why don't you and one or two competitors sketch it out and do an I-D? I'd sure be in favor. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Oct 25 20:55:57 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUZa9-0000VY-8C for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 20:55:57 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA10381 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 20:55:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9Q0oNLD075837; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:50:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9Q0oNnN075836; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:50:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9Q0oMPc075823 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:50:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Wed, 26 Oct 2005 10:52:19 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 10:50:06 +1000 Subject: Re: Sponsored Links and other link extensions From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <48947C9C-3A46-4FD5-A5C1-B85C8BEAB763@geckotribe.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 26/10/05 4:18 AM, "Antone Roundy" wrote: > The only thing I would change is the name of x:mirror/@title to make > it clear that it isn't intended(?) to replace the parent link's > @title. My current favorite name is "label". +1 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Oct 26 00:46:57 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUdBf-0005WX-IM for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 00:46:57 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA21769 for ; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 00:46:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9Q4dZG5095583; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:39:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9Q4dZaU095582; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:39:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from xproxy.gmail.com (xproxy.gmail.com [66.249.82.193]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9Q4dYDO095576 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:39:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i29so152395wxd for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:39:33 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=M+WQ4G6qNJ9L4SqPDEKhqLj5MXyU8A1Jt1pdy1MuImWpCCKrHsbDfKEJ+VFKqFM2n1L1S/GmiZPRTh2S9yAnnJIuVEZ0rUJCnnlVHFkuKW+66ecNRjGDE0CVV3n3/WC99AfV0PlsRRV0o9nde1qd53GgZ2yj/d/CG7Jptl87cCk= Received: by 10.65.23.10 with SMTP id a10mr370247qbj; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:39:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e15sm227378qbe.2005.10.25.21.39.33; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:39:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <435F087A.6010009@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:39:22 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Byrne Reese CC: James Holderness , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Unofficial Last Call - draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-04.txt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hmm.. not too sure. It's entirely possible, of course, but I'm not sure that's it's worthwhile. The slash RSS 1.0 module already has an element that can be used for this (http://web.resource.org/rss/1.0/modules/slash/). Byrne Reese wrote: >Any chance this specification could be extended to contain meta data >about the replies? Specifically, how many replies that may exist for a >given entry? > >I would love a mechanism to be able to recreate: > >--- cut here --- >POST TITLE > >Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. >Donec sit amet nisl. Morbi pretium ultrices sapien. Mauris >pretium ultrices odio. Duis mauris. Aliquam est. > >Posted by: Byrne on Dec 15, 2005 Comments (10) >--- cut here --- > >Perhaps? > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org >>[mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of James M Snell >>Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 7:45 AM >>To: James Holderness >>Cc: Atom Syntax >>Subject: Re: Unofficial Last Call - >>draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-04.txt >> >> >>Ah crap, that's what I get for editing multiple docs at once. >> It's supposed to be -01 and -02. I'll get that fixed. The >>-01 is the current version; the new version waiting to >>publish has no significant updates (just some minor typo >>stuff) so you should safely be able to base your feedback on >>the -01 version. >> >>James Holderness wrote: >> >> >> >>>>[1] draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-03.txt (current version) [2] >>>>draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-04.txt (new version waiting to >>>>publish... no significant changes) >>>> >>>> >>>Do you have a link for these? The only copy I could find on >>> >>> >>ietf.org >> >> >>>was -01. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Oct 26 14:13:52 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUpma-000171-7d for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:13:52 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA11364 for ; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:13:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9QI6R27083031; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:06:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9QI6RiB083030; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:06:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9QI6RYl083023 for ; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:06:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 32726 invoked by uid 17064); 26 Oct 2005 18:06:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [I?@IPv6:::1]) ([192.220.66.168]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 26 Oct 2005 18:06:26 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Message-Id: <32187B0F-741A-4902-A82A-75873AC2FF56@bblfish.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: Syntax Atom From: Henry Story Subject: semantics Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 20:06:24 +0200 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9QI6RYl083024 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id OAA11364 Hi, the AtomOWL group has released what I believe is a very good candidate for an official semantics for the atom syntax. We have striven to keep as close as possible to the syntax without trying to impose an RDF interpretation onto XML. To see what I mean it is best to look at an =20 example. Here is the second example of the syntax document in N3: ----------------8<------------------------------------------------------ @prefix : . @prefix xsd: . @prefix iana: . @prefix rdfs: . <> rdfs:comment "The simplest transformation from the atom-syntax =20 to atom-owl of the second, longer example in atom11."@en . [ a :Feed, :Version; :title [ :value "dive into mark"; :type "text/plain" ]; :subtitle [ :value "A <em>lot</em> of effort went =20 into making this effortless"; :type "text/html" ]; :updated "2005-07-31T12:29:29Z"^^xsd:dateTime; :link [ :href [ =3D ; :representation [ :type "text/html"; :lang "en" ] ]; :rel iana:alternate ]; :link [ :href [ =3D ; :representation [ :type "application/atom+xml" ] ]; :rel iana:self ]; :rights "Copyright (c) 2003, Mark Pilgrim"; :generator [ :uri ; :version "1.0"; :name "Example Toolkit" ]; :entry [ a :Entry, :Version; :title [ :string "Atom draft-07 snapshot"; :type "text/plain" ]; :link [ :href [ =3D ; :representation [ :type "text/html"] ]; :rel iana:alternate ]; :link [ :href [ =3D ; :representation [ :type "audio/mpeg"; :length "1337"^^xsd:integer ] ]; :rel iana:enclosure ]; :id ; :updated "2005-07-31T12:29:29Z"^^xsd:dateTime; :published "2003-12-13T08:29:29-04:00"^^xsd:dateTime; :author [ a :Person; :name "Mark Pilgrim"; :uri ; :email ]; :contributor [ :name "Sam Ruby" ]; :contributor [ :name "Joe Gregorio" ]; :content [ :value "

[Update: The Atom draft is finished.]

"; :type "text/html" ]; ] ] . ----------------8<------------------------------------------------------ For more information please look at the Ontology at: http://bblfish.net/work/atom-owl/2005-10-23/ I would like to get this to be a basis for working towards an official sanctioned ontology for Atom. Please help us move towards this goal by joining us on the atom-owl mailing list http://groups.google.com/group/atom-owl/ Henry Story with help from Danny Ayers and Reto Bachmann-Gm=FCr and many others. see http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/bblfish/20051023 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 27 00:54:23 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUzmQ-0000UZ-AX for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 00:54:23 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA23160 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 00:54:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9R4kpuj061636; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:46:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9R4kpMb061635; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:46:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9R4kn6G061627 for ; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:46:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:48:49 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:46:37 +1000 Subject: clarification needed: order of children of atom:entry From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Section 4.1.2 of the Atom Syndication Format spec states this: "This specification assigns no significance to the order of appearance of the child elements of atom:entry." Is this referring to the immediate children only of atom:entry, or of all descendents? I'm hoping for the former, otherwise this:

heading

para.1

para.2

 ... ... could become the following when passing some intermediary:

para.2

para.1

heading

 ... e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 27 01:14:30 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EV05u-0007Hd-Mz for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 01:14:30 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA24216 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 01:14:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9R58VQD063645; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 22:08:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9R58V9W063644; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 22:08:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from xproxy.gmail.com (xproxy.gmail.com [66.249.82.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9R58VdH063638 for ; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 22:08:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id s16so636965wxc for ; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 22:08:31 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=DmFBFbcQYs33xSKEJFEkoTjJdezqlM9rz/JvaqnfNPKgHtba7PlFO4PgqlzjmbMiuBQqMfZj+2NBFMxKzbKBnoeoKyKy/gCr6Fg9P5W5UT7X4zbaF3q30uC/5VHX/wj9JlBUIS2aPdgHxQKBIBeXbcQDn/8Y8ebQFmEiQmP267s= Received: by 10.65.52.20 with SMTP id e20mr1243031qbk; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 22:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e14sm1081376qbe.2005.10.26.22.08.27; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 22:08:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <436060C0.7090307@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 22:08:16 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: clarification needed: order of children of atom:entry References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Immediate children. Eric Scheid wrote: >Section 4.1.2 of the Atom Syndication Format spec states this: > > "This specification assigns no significance to the order of > appearance of the child elements of atom:entry." > >Is this referring to the immediate children only of atom:entry, or of all >descendents? > >I'm hoping for the former, otherwise this: > > > >
>

heading

>

para.1

>

para.2

>
> > ... > > >... could become the following when passing some intermediary: > > > >
>

para.2

>

para.1

>

heading

>
> > ... > > >e. > > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 27 02:15:54 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EV13J-0001jP-OH for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 02:15:53 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA26731 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 02:15:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9R695aK069303; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:09:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9R695fY069302; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:09:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9R693WG069279 for ; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:09:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 27 Oct 2005 06:08:57 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-245-55.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.245.55] by mail.gmx.net (mp035) with SMTP; 27 Oct 2005 08:08:57 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 08:09:22 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: clarification needed: order of children of atom:entry Message-ID: <20051027060922.GA6189@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * Eric Scheid [2005-10-27 06:55]: > Section 4.1.2 of the Atom Syndication Format spec states this: > > "This specification assigns no significance to the order of > appearance of the child elements of atom:entry." > > Is this referring to the immediate children only of atom:entry, > or of all descendents? It would say descendents if it meant descendents, no? Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 27 02:34:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EV1Kz-0004Yl-6I for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 02:34:09 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA27372 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 02:33:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9R6QX6E070422; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:26:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9R6QXIA070421; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:26:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9R6QWEd070378 for ; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:26:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:28:02 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:25:50 +1000 Subject: Re: clarification needed: order of children of atom:entry From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20051027060922.GA6189@klangraum> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 27/10/05 4:09 PM, "A. Pagaltzis" wrote: > It would say descendents if it meant descendents, no? not if it was speaking in more general terms. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 27 08:34:06 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EV6xK-00081d-KB for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 08:34:06 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA26174 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 08:33:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9RCQk1Y005251; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 05:26:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9RCQk4r005250; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 05:26:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9RCQhk3005240 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 05:26:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from fe-amer-09.sun.com ([192.18.108.183]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9RCQg3F021221 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 06:26:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.11 (built Jan 28 2005)) id <0IP000C01QHR8I00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 06:26:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [172.28.172.200] ([12.163.142.2]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.11 (built Jan 28 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0IP0005Z0QKHZQ79@mail-amer.sun.com>; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 06:26:42 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 05:27:27 -0700 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: clarification needed: order of children of atom:entry In-reply-to: To: Eric Scheid Cc: Atom Syntax Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Oct 26, 2005, at 9:46 PM, Eric Scheid wrote: > > Section 4.1.2 of the Atom Syndication Format spec states this: > > "This specification assigns no significance to the order of > appearance of the child elements of atom:entry." > > Is this referring to the immediate children only of atom:entry, or > of all > descendents? In the XML context, the term "child elements" is not ambiguous. So I think it means what it says, which is what you want it to mean. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 27 10:40:01 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EV8vB-0003Dy-3y for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:40:01 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA03472 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:39:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9REWCmL019471; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:32:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9REWC1T019470; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:32:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav3.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.75]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9REWCwi019461 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:32:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:32:06 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV3.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:32:06 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: <43592025.6010900@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Unofficial Last Call - draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-04.txt Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:34:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Oct 2005 14:32:06.0987 (UTC) FILETIME=[34F651B0:01C5DB03] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry for the delay in commenting, but I only got around to looking at this in detail today. Other than a few areas that I think need clarification in the wording, my main problem with this proposal is the dereferenceable in-reply-to. While I can see why a feed producer may want to include it, I don't see how an Atom processor can do anything useful with it (which couldn't be done just as easily with existing elements). And if it's not of any use, it seems to be that it's just taking up space and complicating the spec. The easiest way to explain my position is with some use cases. Let's say you wanted to reply to a particular item in another Atom feed: From that alone I can do all sorts of fancy threading in my client (assuming the user is subscribed to the source feed) and/or provide a button/link/whatever allowing the user to subscribe to the source feed (if he isn't already). If the item being replied to is in the same feed as the reply then the idea is pretty much the same except no source attribute is required. That's all good. Now let's say I wanted to reply to a particular item in an RSS feed. Here's what I'd expect: You could use an in-reply-to tag, but it's not going to be any more useful to me than that (in some cases, less useful). Even with an idref of some sort, I still can't thread such a reply. The original article can't link to my reply as part of its own threading system and nobody reading the original thread can reply to my reply and still have it be part of the original thread. The bottom line is that it's really not part of a thread - it's a completely separate message that is merely related to the original. In fact, if you were to represent that link as a element, the best I could do as a client is convert it into a "related" link or a "via" link. Basically what it comes down to is this. I think should be reserved for threading of atom entries only. Any other replies should be referenced with a "related" or "via" link element. There's no need for a type since it should always be "application/atom+xml". The source should always point to an Atom feed or, if blank, should imply the current feed. I don't have any issues with the element although I think it would be nice to show examples of the two main use cases: namely the equivalent of RSS (basically type="text/html") and the RSS extension (type="application/atom+xml"). For now I'm going to ignore all the other little issues I have with the proposal on the off chance that you come around to my way of thinking. Once you throw out inReplyToDereferenceable the whole thing becomes a lot simpler and most of those problems should solve themselves. Regards James James M Snell wrote: > At some point over the next couple of days, a slightly modified version of > the comments extension draft [1] will be published. The moment it > publishes will kick off a two week Unofficial Last Call period for the > spec. The spec has been stable of the past two months with no major > issues raised. Please review the draft. After two weeks I will review > any received feedback and, if appropriate, cut a new draft which will > become the stable version. After the Atom Protocol work completes, I will > submit the stable version of the draft as a standards track RFC. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 27 11:05:31 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EV9Jq-0007xR-V8 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:05:31 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA06867 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:05:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9REsecP021762; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:54:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9REseNk021761; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:54:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav18.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.89] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9REsex7021733 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:54:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:54:34 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.122.22 by BAY106-DAV17.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:54:34 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.122.22] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: <435F087A.6010009@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Unofficial Last Call - draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-04.txt Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:56:34 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Oct 2005 14:54:34.0794 (UTC) FILETIME=[585158A0:01C5DB06] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm not a big fan of this either. The count can never be assured of any accuracy so if I were to display something like this I end up having to try and explain to my users why it says there are no replies when in fact they there are 20. Also, it forces excessive refreshes on the main feed because every time someone replies to an entry, the feed for that entry has to be updated even though it has no real changes. The server could try and do something fancy, like not changing etags when it's only a reply count update, but then it just means those counts are going to be even more out of sync with reality. As you say, if someone really wants to include a comment count they can always use the slash module. I just don't think it's worth adding to your proposal without a lot of warnings about the problems and limitations. Regards James James M Snell wrote: > Hmm.. not too sure. It's entirely possible, of course, but I'm not sure > that's it's worthwhile. The slash RSS 1.0 module already has an element > that can be used for this > (http://web.resource.org/rss/1.0/modules/slash/). > Byrne Reese wrote: > >>Any chance this specification could be extended to contain meta data >>about the replies? Specifically, how many replies that may exist for a >>given entry? >> >>I would love a mechanism to be able to recreate: >> >>--- cut here --- >>POST TITLE >> >>Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Donec sit amet >>nisl. Morbi pretium ultrices sapien. Mauris pretium ultrices odio. Duis >>mauris. Aliquam est. >>Posted by: Byrne on Dec 15, 2005 Comments (10) >>--- cut here --- >> >>Perhaps? >> >> From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 27 13:26:37 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EVBWP-0007Xl-3q for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:26:37 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA17236 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:26:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9RHEUo2038236; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:14:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9RHEURj038235; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:14:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from xproxy.gmail.com (xproxy.gmail.com [66.249.82.195]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9RHEUp1038224 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:14:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i26so11467wxd for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:14:26 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=FNORvyqVzsvkTJTVnq9Fg+MH8wdmQAWfPFwJfpDrYBZ1l4mTFmRkWhSkhyEDpNKh1ypmVkQ3vosBb3rCRv6pD9M2rlfCd4IIk6QYs/bi/x0eoElsvtXvWOktmiTu354GvHIO5Dvoh3mnD+IvZA0p5WRWGStCo8zdQ/IRwrY5Ucc= Received: by 10.70.37.10 with SMTP id k10mr1272564wxk; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:14:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id i12sm1022395wxd.2005.10.27.10.14.26; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:14:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43610AE7.9070501@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:14:15 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Unofficial Last Call - draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-04.txt References: <435F087A.6010009@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +1 James Holderness wrote: > > I'm not a big fan of this either. The count can never be assured of > any accuracy so if I were to display something like this I end up > having to try and explain to my users why it says there are no replies > when in fact they there are 20. > > Also, it forces excessive refreshes on the main feed because every > time someone replies to an entry, the feed for that entry has to be > updated even though it has no real changes. The server could try and > do something fancy, like not changing etags when it's only a reply > count update, but then it just means those counts are going to be even > more out of sync with reality. > > As you say, if someone really wants to include a comment count they > can always use the slash module. I just don't think it's worth adding > to your proposal without a lot of warnings about the problems and > limitations. > > Regards > James > > James M Snell wrote: > >> Hmm.. not too sure. It's entirely possible, of course, but I'm not >> sure that's it's worthwhile. The slash RSS 1.0 module already has an >> element that can be used for this >> (http://web.resource.org/rss/1.0/modules/slash/). >> Byrne Reese wrote: >> >>> Any chance this specification could be extended to contain meta data >>> about the replies? Specifically, how many replies that may exist for a >>> given entry? >>> >>> I would love a mechanism to be able to recreate: >>> >>> --- cut here --- >>> POST TITLE >>> >>> Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Donec sit >>> amet nisl. Morbi pretium ultrices sapien. Mauris pretium ultrices >>> odio. Duis mauris. Aliquam est. >>> Posted by: Byrne on Dec 15, 2005 Comments (10) >>> --- cut here --- >>> >>> Perhaps? >>> >>> >> > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 27 13:34:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EVBdg-0004uj-9a for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:34:08 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA17654 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:33:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9RHP6Xs039801; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:25:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9RHP6XI039800; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:25:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from xproxy.gmail.com (xproxy.gmail.com [66.249.82.197]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9RHP6cQ039793 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:25:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id r21so265196wxc for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:25:02 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=kyYGR8JSpBW65tHTBtUuS79E3HISbuVzPb4A2e29T/zFuHf2QZiPJr6Ol3hhQU7zPaHhOHag2QSm6w1532tzoMV7/6blY6KkTWi2Ea30VIvl68sr3F1ZR+z6L162hnYfeNfhq4z2VU24tT2+DTAf1iU+ehibgHHWhGi4U55hVT0= Received: by 10.64.210.11 with SMTP id i11mr1859309qbg; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:25:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id m3sm1580448qbe.2005.10.27.10.25.01; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:25:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <43610D62.4010802@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:24:50 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Unofficial Last Call - draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-04.txt References: <43592025.6010900@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hmm.. I think what this boils down to is a question about whether or not the replies extension really does need to support replies to non-Atom resources at all. I can see it both ways. I definitely understand where you are coming from, but I also don't want to have to look in two different places for the same basic type of information if the only difference is what data format is being referenced. Let me stew on this. If you have any specific language you'd like to see in the spec, please go ahead and send it my way. - James James Holderness wrote: > > Sorry for the delay in commenting, but I only got around to looking at > this in detail today. > > Other than a few areas that I think need clarification in the wording, > my main problem with this proposal is the dereferenceable in-reply-to. > While I can see why a feed producer may want to include it, I don't > see how an Atom processor can do anything useful with it (which > couldn't be done just as easily with existing elements). And if it's > not of any use, it seems to be that it's just taking up space and > complicating the spec. > > The easiest way to explain my position is with some use cases. Let's > say you wanted to reply to a particular item in another Atom feed: > > type="application/atom+xml" > idref="tag:someatomid" > source="http://www.example.org/someatomfeed"/> > >> From that alone I can do all sorts of fancy threading in my client >> (assuming > > the user is subscribed to the source feed) and/or provide a > button/link/whatever allowing the user to subscribe to the source feed > (if he isn't already). > > If the item being replied to is in the same feed as the reply then the > idea is pretty much the same except no source attribute is required. > That's all good. > > Now let's say I wanted to reply to a particular item in an RSS feed. > Here's what I'd expect: > > rel="related" > type="text/html" > href="http://www.example.org/rsspermalink.html"/> > > You could use an in-reply-to tag, but it's not going to be any more > useful to me than that (in some cases, less useful). Even with an > idref of some sort, I still can't thread such a reply. The original > article can't link to my reply as part of its own threading system and > nobody reading the original thread can reply to my reply and still > have it be part of the original thread. > > The bottom line is that it's really not part of a thread - it's a > completely separate message that is merely related to the original. In > fact, if you were to represent that link as a > element, the best I could do as a client is convert it into a > "related" link or a "via" link. > > Basically what it comes down to is this. I think > should be reserved for threading of atom entries only. Any other > replies should be referenced with a "related" or "via" link element. > There's no need for a type since it should always be > "application/atom+xml". The source should always point to an Atom feed > or, if blank, should imply the current feed. > > I don't have any issues with the element although I think it > would be nice to show examples of the two main use cases: namely the > equivalent of RSS (basically type="text/html") and the RSS > extension (type="application/atom+xml"). > > For now I'm going to ignore all the other little issues I have with > the proposal on the off chance that you come around to my way of > thinking. Once you throw out inReplyToDereferenceable the whole thing > becomes a lot simpler and most of those problems should solve themselves. > > Regards > James > > James M Snell wrote: > >> At some point over the next couple of days, a slightly modified >> version of the comments extension draft [1] will be published. The >> moment it publishes will kick off a two week Unofficial Last Call >> period for the spec. The spec has been stable of the past two months >> with no major issues raised. Please review the draft. After two >> weeks I will review any received feedback and, if appropriate, cut a >> new draft which will become the stable version. After the Atom >> Protocol work completes, I will submit the stable version of the >> draft as a standards track RFC. > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 27 14:40:02 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EVCfS-0002D2-Qa for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:40:02 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA21714 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:39:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9RIXlHH046805; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:33:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9RIXlW1046804; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:33:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j9RIXjHJ046790 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:33:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 27 Oct 2005 18:33:37 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-225-254.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.225.254] by mail.gmx.net (mp010) with SMTP; 27 Oct 2005 20:33:37 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 20:33:41 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Unofficial Last Call - draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-04.txt Message-ID: <20051027183341.GC11597@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <43592025.6010900@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id OAA21714 * James Holderness [2005-10-27 16:40]: > I don't see how an Atom processor can do anything useful with > it (which couldn't be done just as easily with existing > elements). And if it's not of any use, it seems to be that it's > just taking up space and complicating the spec. +1, which won=E2=80=99t surprise anyone. I managed to miss the fact that this extension cannot be used in non-Atom documents, otherwise I=E2=80=99d have argued along these lines before, though I doubt I would have managed anything nearly as coherent. One might argue that removing the Atom-specifity would be another way out of the current dilemma, but measured against the points you make it would feel to me like a mistake. We started with a simple hack =E2=80=93 arguably too simple =E2=80=93 tha= t somehow grew into trying to be everything to everyone. In the process it lost of a lot of semantic =E2=80=9Chardness.=E2=80=9D This is = the main reason I was never very happy with the dereferencable links; I still can=E2=80=99t explain what I mean as abstractly as I think about it, but your explanation for why they=E2=80=99re not useful is concrete demonstration. In any case, I would be elated to see this extension shed a lot of weight and go back to addressing a clearly bounded purpose. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Oct 27 19:12:13 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EVGur-0006ji-0M for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 19:12:13 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA26077 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 19:11:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9RN69kA079811; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:06:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9RN69AJ079810; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:06:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mX1.myOutlookonline.com (mx1.MyOutlookOnline.com [69.25.74.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9RN68gZ079800 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:06:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from byrne@sixapart.com) Received: from be022.mail.lan ([10.109.209.122]) by mX1.myOutlookonline.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 27 Oct 2005 19:06:02 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: General/Specific [was: Feed History / Protocol overlap] Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 19:06:12 -0400 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: General/Specific [was: Feed History / Protocol overlap] Thread-Index: AcXU0cFBGNl/6CV8TA+wMYZ9LA+WGAGeTcUg From: "Byrne Reese" To: "Mark Nottingham" , "Thomas Broyer" Cc: "Antone Roundy" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Oct 2005 23:06:02.0858 (UTC) FILETIME=[0092D4A0:01C5DB4B] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9RN68gZ079804 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > * Reconstructing a feed should use: > a) a specific relation, e.g., "prev-archive" -1 > b) a generic relation, e.g., "previous" +1 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Oct 28 13:42:59 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EVYFn-0002mJ-1m for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 13:42:59 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA00267 for ; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 13:42:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9SHVn9x011813; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 10:31:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9SHVneQ011812; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 10:31:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9SHVnD7011805 for ; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 10:31:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 18469 invoked by uid 17064); 28 Oct 2005 17:31:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [IPv6:::1]) ([192.220.66.168]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 28 Oct 2005 17:31:47 -0000 To: Scott Anderson Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <230E04F5-8DA1-4357-BC25-A7CE92E03CB0@bblfish.net> Cc: atom-owl@googlegroups.com, Ayers Danny Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: FYI: hAtom Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 19:14:40 +0200 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit An example of how atom-owl may help us think about how extensions can work best in the syntax -------------------------------------------------------------------- On 28 Oct 2005, at 16:33, Scott Anderson wrote: > Hi Henry, > > > >> I have not been following this microsoft proposal. Any pointers? >> Looking around I found this: >> http://msdn.microsoft.com/windowsvista/building/rss/ >> simplefeedextensions/ >> >> But I am not aware of your use case. >> >> >> > > You found the right thing. > I also found this along the way: http://patricklogan.blogspot.com/2005/08/lists-really-can-we-expect- better.html but this is a battle or argument I cannot claim to have any knowledge of. > I believe that MS is thinking outside the > context of blogs and other syndicated content to repurpose a web feed > as an ordered list of entries where each entry is a wrapper for some > microcontent. > I have a problem with this with respect to Atom. In Atom entries are not ordered as opposed to RSS1.0. So in N3 [ a :Feed, :Version; :entry _:a1; :entry _:a2; :entry _:a3; ] . assuming _:a1, _:a2, and _:a3 are different there is no order defined. There is just a :Feed and three relations to an anonymous :Entry object. One could add an order by adding a list such as: (_:a1, _:a2, _:a3) . but that is not very interesting. You can take any objects in the world and create lists out of them. Ie: the above was true without one needing to state it. An order is only interesting if one know something else about it: its type, or its relation to something else. So for example if you were interested in a preference ordering I had you could write [ a foaf:Person; foaf:mbox ; xxx:preferenceOrder (_:a1, _:a2, _:a3); ] . And that would be saying something that could be of interest. In short if you want an order to something you have to specify the type of order you are interested in. Atom does not specify this because that would impose an order and then they would have to decide what order was especially important. I think wisely it was decided that none was. > A client could subscribe to a list and be able to > respond when a new entry was added/removed or when the order of the > entries changed. > It is an interesting question as to how in atom-owl (and in Atom) one should present feeds where the ordering is important. One way would be simple to make the ordering into an entry [ a :Feed, :Version; :entry _:a1; :entry _:a2; :entry _:a3; :entry [ a :Entry, :Version; :updated "1 Nov 2005...."; :id :content [ xxx:Preferences; xxx:order (_:a1, _:a2, _:a3); ]; ]; ] . Something like this. I have yet to think this through carefully as in atom-owl I have defined the range of the :content relation to be a :Content object that is a subclass of webarch:Representation. The nice thing about this is that you could have entries indicating a change in your preference ordering I suppose like this: [ a :Feed, :Version; :entry _:a1; :entry _:a2; :entry _:a3; :entry [ a :Entry, :Version; :updated "1 Nov 2005...."; :id :content [ xxx:Preferences; xxx:order (_:a1, _:a2, _:a3); ]; ]; :entry [ a :Entry, :Version; :updated "3 Nov 2005...."; :id :content [ xxx:Preferences; xxx:order (_:a2, _:a1, _:a3); ]; ]; ] . Here you would be notifying the reader of your change in preferences by adding a new entry. The nice thing is that this keeps nicely distinct the feed, which is unordered, and the Preference which has an ordering, by interposing an Entry that may have at different times different relations to different orderings: in shorter english: the ordering may change. The above is just a sketch by the way, of the top of my head. It raises interesting issues in the ontology, that would be well worth looking into carefully. > > My use case is that I want to be able to present a hierarchy of these > list feeds in the context of an XHTML doument using the hAtom > microformat. I was thinking that my servlet would only resolve these > dynamic lists at the time that I generate the XHTML. The Atom feeds > and any modeling of them would make use of URL references to loosely > coupled feeds so as to not complicate things outside the context of > the XHTML document. It may make sense to do some OWL modeling specific > to this case for some reason but I have not gotten that far yet. It > may also make sense to provide some useful summary content along with > these feeds that include entry references to other feeds. I will cross > that bridge when I see it. > Does the above modeling help a little? By the way you can get a quick introduction to N3 by following the link here: http://bblfish.net/blog/page5.html#47 > > However, I do need to represent the resolved hierarchy of feeds in the > context of the XHTML document. The whole point of supporting a > microformat in this way would be to be able to provide a reasonable > means to parse/scrape the XHTML to be able to make sense of the > hierarchy of hAtom representations that were generated from originally > walking the root Atom document feed when the document got generated, > to be able to extract nested feeds, and the other microformat types > that might have been rendered within the context of feed entries. > > Except for those restrictions imposed by the microformat community and > the hAtom spec in particular do you see potential issues with what I > want to do here? Maybe there are some issues with XHTML ids or with > hAtom not being able to clearly delineate itself that I am not seeing. > > > >> I am a little new to microformats myself. >> >> >> > > Me too. RDF and OWL are even newer to me. > > My concerns with such a solution extend beyond whether it is > technically doable into whether it meshes with the intent of these > intersecting efforts (OWL, microformats, CSS, etc.). This idea fits > very well with how I want to use Atom and microformats but it could > introduce grief to others who want to play in my sandbox. > > Scott > > On 10/28/05, Henry Story wrote: > > >> >> On 28 Oct 2005, at 13:10, Danny Ayers wrote: >> >> >> >>> Hi Scott, >>> >>> Henry (cc'ed) - see below, >>> >>> On 10/28/05, Scott Anderson wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Danny, >>>> >>>> I have been emailing David Janes asking him to preserve the >>>> viability >>>> of recursively embedding an hAtom feed within the contents of >>>> another >>>> feed's entry. I can make use of such a feed hierarchy to provide >>>> the >>>> semantic contexts (URIs included) that I was looking for. >>>> Microsoft's >>>> proposal for extending RSS/Atom feeds to model them as ordered >>>> lists >>>> appears to fit very well with this modeling of XHTML documents (and >>>> their presentation) as lists of lists. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> True. >>> >>> >> >> I have not been following this microsoft proposal. Any pointers? >> Looking around I found this: >> http://msdn.microsoft.com/windowsvista/building/rss/ >> simplefeedextensions/ >> >> But I am not aware of your use case. >> >> >> >>>> I think this implementation of feed=list=context=template >>>> hierarchies >>>> is much cleaner and more functional than what OPML+XSL or XOXO >>>> could >>>> effectively provide. I am convinced that the humans I have worked >>>> with >>>> would have a hard time consuming or producing XOXO markup. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> Heh, I know what you mean. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> I have only had time to do a brief overview of what you guys are >>>> doing >>>> with Atom/Owl work. My hope is that I can apply it and some simple >>>> OWL >>>> models to get me some syndicated portlets that spit out >>>> microformats >>>> within hierarchies of hAtom semantic contexts. >>>> >>>> Do you see any pitfalls that I may have overlooked? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> It sounds reasonable, but there may well be pitfalls ;-) Henry has >>> looked pretty hard at the feed-hierarchies idea, if I remember >>> correctly the main objections to this approach on the atom-syntax >>> list >>> were that it would make the parsing a bit harder. But from the XHTML >>> point of view, where as you say lists can be hard to parse anyhow, >>> maybe it would make sense. >>> I don't know, maybe the only way of finding out how feasible this >>> would be, would be to try a bit of code... >>> >>> Henry - thoughts? >>> >>> >> >> I am a little new to microformats myself. >> >> One way to get clear on your problem would be to try to use the >> latest AtomOwl [1] ontology and write out an example of what you want >> to do in n3. There are already 2 examples there. The Atom Syntax has >> many >> restrictions that are not shared by the ontology, as the syntax is >> designed to be easily parsed with xslt type tools, whereas the >> ontology >> is just trying to describe what we are speaking about. Once we work >> out what we are speaking about, it is then possible to decide what >> the best presentation of that is. I also find that by writing things >> out in N3 one gets a lot clearer about what the problem is. >> >> Henry >> >> >> [1] http://bblfish.net/work/atom-owl/2005-10-23/ >> >> >> >> >>> Cheers, >>> Danny. >>> >>> -- >>> >>> http://dannyayers.com >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Oct 29 17:25:30 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EVyCg-0007l5-9l for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 17:25:30 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA25898 for ; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 17:25:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9TLI7GW066891; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 14:18:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9TLI77F066890; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 14:18:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.204]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9TLI6Ad066875 for ; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 14:18:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i13so658403wra for ; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 14:18:01 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=RgrQzLSaajHy2/y4GgALClUvGlewEjfl+ceBYLqfYTvjghSYR0JG76LStcz6LPuMKRFz0gvBz1qOGSrMXDQRAQIY2h2FBshHF23IbC+d+uBaedKjolYoThv7LhOFZEMCdQY2JawA8GonwGRKRHAt7Mfe6Oc4S4q+72Uqb9pNXxU= Received: by 10.64.233.6 with SMTP id f6mr389065qbh; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 14:18:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id f17sm812014qba.2005.10.29.14.18.00; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 14:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4363E6FB.9010109@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 14:17:47 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Profile links References: <43593C8C.6060603@gmail.com> <43596CED.2070801@dehora.net> <4359769E.8030802@gmail.com> <435A33E3.5090801@dehora.net> <435A5218.7060805@gmail.com> <435A7B59.1020009@dehora.net> <435A8B53.5040600@gmail.com> <435A96A8.2030000@gmail.com> <435A99F9.8010008@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: <435A99F9.8010008@dehora.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id RAA25898 Ok, so I walked away from this for a few days then thought about it=20 again. Practically speaking, I don't really give a damn whether or not=20 it's a or a because folks who want= =20 to do this type of thing will adapt to whatever the mechanism is. The=20 profile thing is a) and identifier and b) an reference to a document=20 that defines the profile. There can be many different ways a profile=20 can be defined so having a media type makes sense. There could be=20 several different profiles defined so to help differentiate, a title or=20 label would be helpful. I had said before that "while the URI of the=20 profile reference should be dereferenceable, most of the time the=20 profile value is going to be used as an identifier" and used that as a=20 justification for not using link. Then I looked over at my=20 link[rel=3D"license"] extension and realized that the exact same argument= =20 applies there also. Given this, even tho would work just=20 fine, I think it's best just to stick to the original idea. It's a link to a profile; let's call it for wha= t=20 it is. - James Bill de h=D3ra wrote: >James M Snell wrote: > =20 > >>James Holderness wrote: >> >> =20 >> >>>James M Snell wrote: >>> >>> =20 >>> >>>>Hmm.. the more I think about this and the more we discuss it, the >>>>less I think I like link[rel=3D"profile"]. While the URI of the >>>>profile reference should be dereferenceable, most of the time the >>>>profile value is going to be used as an identifier. >>>> >>>> http://example.com/profiles/weblog >>>> http://example.com/profiles/podcast >>>> >>>> =20 >>>> >>> >>>I agree about not using link, but shouldn't the URI be in an attribute >>>rather than as content. Something like this: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> =20 >>> >>Works for me. >> =20 >> > >'href's can traditionally be dereferenced, no big deal - the upside is >the markup structure does gives you scope to extend later. > >'ref' - ? > >cheers >Bill > > > > =20 > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 31 10:10:50 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EWbJB-00035i-UQ for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:10:50 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA13288 for ; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:10:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9VF1FUR075074; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:01:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9VF1FPI075073; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:01:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from xproxy.gmail.com (xproxy.gmail.com [66.249.82.195]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9VF1EZ9075067 for ; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:01:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from manuzhai@gmail.com) Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id s17so1071181wxc for ; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:01:14 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=mN8lX9ve8ZRHdEptYUwI9FZFtxliJPcGmtLiGMeOyJ+R5soGRbxTgs9y4iy9TkKdLVA4DDe6TsicgFNM3FtRND+6J+O3/UPGIFz1dLPEuXguOlnhluDGu124ns3Hq7MNwBJBsAG3rnybfll37W95UvemPWBSeYkHCM75HS5KZ7I= Received: by 10.65.40.13 with SMTP id s13mr242002qbj; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:01:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.189.18 with HTTP; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:01:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <7eafad620510310701l42ae10a2oc30c119bab1c6f1c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 16:01:13 +0100 From: Manuzhai To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: app:updated ordering in Collections MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9VF1EZ9075068 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi there, I'm a bit of a n00b when it comes to this stuff, so please don't slap me with a large trout or anything. As I refactored my custom weblogging engine over the weekend I decided to look at supporting the Atom protocol. I thought it was still named Atom API, but after I could only find the spec drafts from 2003 on atomenabled.org and remembering that I saw something newer I looked around some more and I found draft 5 for the atompub spec [1, obviously]. So, as I understand it, the Atom API effort was converted into a more serious atompub-protocol effort. Point: should this maybe be explained somewhere on the atomenabled.org site? Good to know. Next, I started actually reading the spec. One question I have right now, and it might be stupid since I haven't read all of the mailing list archives just yet: the spec mentions in the intro of section 8 that Collection items are ordered by their app:updated element. I wonder: why isn't the atom:updated element used for that? That would obviate the need for a Collection-specific app:updated where the Feed already uses atom:updated. If app:updated was used because items of Generic Collections also need this ordering, it could still be mandated that Entry Collections use atom:updated while Generic Collections need app:updated. That may seem like a minor nit, but it just seems, well, illogical. Hope this is not too stupid, Manuzhai [1] http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-05.txt From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 31 10:22:02 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EWbU2-0005jf-Dg for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:22:02 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA13843 for ; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:21:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9VFE2F3076996; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:14:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9VFE2px076995; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:14:02 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from xproxy.gmail.com (xproxy.gmail.com [66.249.82.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9VFE2u3076988 for ; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:14:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id s16so846296wxc for ; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:14:01 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=enuhSjnZ0qz/wKTTYXN6UjacJoNKpddmY0aL1JiNA4fdNc6qZc0nJdjS0ENoBl/6hxSEruoIe4MNdWihV7+VClNq9175a5fL3tYQqplBILPtFcqYSvzpgtCerzWoYIHtf28OUZ9KwlVayVwC7Qh6s/QLh9pgEAWWnCOKNNAcrIk= Received: by 10.65.225.8 with SMTP id c8mr257402qbr; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:14:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.59.14 with HTTP; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:14:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3f1451f50510310714o7e4c6692l98b453d0ce439cfd@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:14:01 -0500 From: Joe Gregorio To: Manuzhai Subject: Re: app:updated ordering in Collections Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <7eafad620510310701l42ae10a2oc30c119bab1c6f1c@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <7eafad620510310701l42ae10a2oc30c119bab1c6f1c@mail.gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9VFE2u3076989 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The latest draft is -06 and is available here: http://bitworking.org/projects/atom/atomapi/draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-06.html Section 9 uses atom:updated for the ordering of collections. -joe On 10/31/05, Manuzhai wrote: > > Hi there, > > I'm a bit of a n00b when it comes to this stuff, so please don't slap > me with a large trout or anything. > > As I refactored my custom weblogging engine over the weekend I decided > to look at supporting the Atom protocol. I thought it was still named > Atom API, but after I could only find the spec drafts from 2003 on > atomenabled.org and remembering that I saw something newer I looked > around some more and I found draft 5 for the atompub spec [1, > obviously]. So, as I understand it, the Atom API effort was converted > into a more serious atompub-protocol effort. Point: should this maybe > be explained somewhere on the atomenabled.org site? Good to know. > > Next, I started actually reading the spec. One question I have right > now, and it might be stupid since I haven't read all of the mailing > list archives just yet: the spec mentions in the intro of section 8 > that Collection items are ordered by their app:updated element. I > wonder: why isn't the atom:updated element used for that? That would > obviate the need for a Collection-specific app:updated where the Feed > already uses atom:updated. If app:updated was used because items of > Generic Collections also need this ordering, it could still be > mandated that Entry Collections use atom:updated while Generic > Collections need app:updated. > > That may seem like a minor nit, but it just seems, well, illogical. > > Hope this is not too stupid, > > Manuzhai > > [1] http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-05.txt > > -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 31 10:28:14 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EWba2-0006su-0K for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:28:14 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA14120 for ; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:27:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9VFHrBQ077528; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:17:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9VFHrqj077527; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:17:53 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from xproxy.gmail.com (xproxy.gmail.com [66.249.82.207]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9VFHqXC077520 for ; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:17:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com) Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id s16so848089wxc for ; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:17:52 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=bC6qfmtpMtQyxVthtUWa6vjOtnoCCTARmGZ5w/XG6OE+PMuc35HVQvRMOsPRozsSohkFKB4Ya5nav/jOvJdYYPJL+JBW4J23iED/vD89hJWe5i4zxsFJdsDQpo2IgeDsK19JEDDAbzKd7KzqQsdJKfEwJdRkHAyNU4SlVJditUY= Received: by 10.65.119.13 with SMTP id w13mr262329qbm; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:17:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.59.14 with HTTP; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:17:52 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3f1451f50510310717n1cfe41eh898efe18dac8aa4e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:17:52 -0500 From: Joe Gregorio To: Manuzhai Subject: Re: app:updated ordering in Collections Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <3f1451f50510310714o7e4c6692l98b453d0ce439cfd@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <7eafad620510310701l42ae10a2oc30c119bab1c6f1c@mail.gmail.com> <3f1451f50510310714o7e4c6692l98b453d0ce439cfd@mail.gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j9VFHrXC077522 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sorry, that URI should have been: http://bitworking.org/projects/atom/draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-06.html -joe On 10/31/05, Joe Gregorio wrote: > The latest draft is -06 and is available here: > > http://bitworking.org/projects/atom/atomapi/draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-06.html > > Section 9 uses atom:updated for the ordering of collections. > > -joe > > On 10/31/05, Manuzhai wrote: > > > > Hi there, > > > > I'm a bit of a n00b when it comes to this stuff, so please don't slap > > me with a large trout or anything. > > > > As I refactored my custom weblogging engine over the weekend I decided > > to look at supporting the Atom protocol. I thought it was still named > > Atom API, but after I could only find the spec drafts from 2003 on > > atomenabled.org and remembering that I saw something newer I looked > > around some more and I found draft 5 for the atompub spec [1, > > obviously]. So, as I understand it, the Atom API effort was converted > > into a more serious atompub-protocol effort. Point: should this maybe > > be explained somewhere on the atomenabled.org site? Good to know. > > > > Next, I started actually reading the spec. One question I have right > > now, and it might be stupid since I haven't read all of the mailing > > list archives just yet: the spec mentions in the intro of section 8 > > that Collection items are ordered by their app:updated element. I > > wonder: why isn't the atom:updated element used for that? That would > > obviate the need for a Collection-specific app:updated where the Feed > > already uses atom:updated. If app:updated was used because items of > > Generic Collections also need this ordering, it could still be > > mandated that Entry Collections use atom:updated while Generic > > Collections need app:updated. > > > > That may seem like a minor nit, but it just seems, well, illogical. > > > > Hope this is not too stupid, > > > > Manuzhai > > > > [1] http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-05.txt > > > > > > > -- > Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org > -- Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Oct 31 10:34:32 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EWbg7-00087d-UW for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:34:32 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA14443 for ; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:34:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9VFNKGP077878; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:23:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j9VFNKeu077877; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:23:20 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chilco.textdrive.com (chilco.textdrive.com [207.7.108.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j9VFNJK2077860 for ; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:23:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: from [192.168.2.180] (83-70-32-10.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net [83.70.32.10]) by chilco.textdrive.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1E39DA880; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 15:23:16 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <436636DC.8020501@dehora.net> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 15:23:08 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Manuzhai CC: Joe Gregorio , atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: app:updated ordering in Collections References: <7eafad620510310701l42ae10a2oc30c119bab1c6f1c@mail.gmail.com> <3f1451f50510310714o7e4c6692l98b453d0ce439cfd@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3f1451f50510310714o7e4c6692l98b453d0ce439cfd@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Gregorio wrote: > The latest draft is -06 and is available here: > > http://bitworking.org/projects/atom/atomapi/draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-06.html Hi Manuzhai, try this one: http://bitworking.org/projects/atom/draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-06.html cheers Bill