From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 01 10:03:58 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EWxg6-0006VG-9H for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 10:03:58 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA25550 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 10:03:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jA1EulV0039114; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 06:56:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id jA1EulnG039113; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 06:56:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jA1Eul60039107 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 06:56:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 36387 invoked by uid 17064); 1 Nov 2005 14:56:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [?@@IPv6:::1]) ([192.220.66.168]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 1 Nov 2005 14:56:46 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <3f1451f50511010620gb416721u18bc79be3971a8e6@mail.gmail.com> References: <3f1451f50510311713g4cdc640ft9fea022f6e09d84f@mail.gmail.com> <3f1451f50511010620gb416721u18bc79be3971a8e6@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <55776A9A-9AAF-4BD1-9B8D-4F8757B9FCF2@bblfish.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: Is Atom Broken? Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 15:56:41 +0100 To: Syntax Atom X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well it clearly should be able to be generated someplace other than the server. That was one major point of having ids: to be able to allow entries to be moved from one server to another whilst allowing them to keep the same id. In order for that to work the server needs to accept the id given to it by the client. Henry On 1 Nov 2005, at 15:20, Joe Gregorio wrote: > On 10/31/05, Luke Arno wrote: >> That is a tall order and I think it requires some >> discussion as to how. :-) >> >> I would like to start with atom:id. >> >> Should it be generated client side? From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 02 17:04:18 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXQiP-0004K7-Oa for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2005 17:04:17 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA10745 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 17:03:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jA2Lsq9f072192; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 13:54:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id jA2Lsq8o072191; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 13:54:52 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jA2LspPv072185 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 13:54:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [172.16.1.2] (unknown [63.96.173.166]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39D853D39A; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 16:54:49 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <1h4yfee.expm9p15y26o0M%pmrobinson@gmx.net> References: <1h4yfee.expm9p15y26o0M%pmrobinson@gmx.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1-189948090 Message-Id: <283626EC-DD91-423F-8918-DC94D09F796B@mnot.net> Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org (Atom Syntax) X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Last Call Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 13:54:47 -0800 To: Peter Robinson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-1-189948090 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 24/10/2005, at 2:12 PM, Peter Robinson wrote: > That is true, but have you communicated with the OpenSearch people > about > this? I do strongly believe that *here* is the place for work like > this, rather than behind closed doors at Amazon. But if I was them > I'd > feel pretty miffed that this WG appears to have basically stolen their > idea in a desperate 'land grab', and turned it on its head so that > it is > (arguably) the complete opposite of their intended definition. The only place to give them feedback is on a Web form. I've submitted feedback and will wait to see if there's any response. Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ --Apple-Mail-1-189948090 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 24/10/2005, at = 2:12 PM, Peter Robinson wrote:
That is true, = but have you communicated with the OpenSearch people = about
this?=A0 I do strongly believe that *here* is the place = for work like
this, rather than behind closed doors at = Amazon.=A0 But if I was them I'd
feel pretty miffed that this = WG appears to have basically stolen their
idea in a desperate = 'land grab', and turned it on its head so that it = is
(arguably) the complete opposite of their intended = definition.

The only place to give them = feedback is on a Web form. I've submitted feedback and will wait to see = if there's any response.

Cheers,


--
Mark Nottingham =A0 =A0 http://www.mnot.net/
=

= --Apple-Mail-1-189948090-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 07 00:40:37 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EYzkC-0003qP-Un for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 00:40:37 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA15296 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 00:40:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jA75YIw7062657; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 21:34:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id jA75YIbU062656; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 21:34:18 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail1.fluidhosting.com (mail1.fluidhosting.com [204.14.90.61]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id jA75YHGu062641 for ; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 21:34:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jbn@forestfield.org) Received: (qmail 58814 invoked by uid 399); 7 Nov 2005 05:34:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.100?) (jbn@forestfield.org@127.0.0.1) by 127.0.0.1 with SMTP; 7 Nov 2005 05:34:17 -0000 Message-ID: <436EE758.7070404@forestfield.org> Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 23:34:16 -0600 From: "J.B. Nicholson-Owens" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ATOM syntax mailing list Subject: How to specify multiple alternative encodings of the same content? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I maintain NewsFromNeptune.com, a website which points to an archive of recordings of a weekly political talk show called "News from Neptune". I'm considering using ATOM so listeners can be notified about new episodes entering the archive. I'd like to be able to tell the user's software that there are multiple encodings of the same show, one in Ogg Vorbis, another in FLAC, and a third in Speex. Given a URI to each encoding, the client could pick which one is appropriate for downloading. How do I specify this in ATOM? Thanks. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 07 07:37:17 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZ6FQ-00014B-LM for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 07:37:17 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA06753 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 07:36:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jA7CUQHx032808; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 04:30:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id jA7CUQRX032807; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 04:30:26 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id jA7CUO47032779 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 04:30:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 07 Nov 2005 12:30:18 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-248-251.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.248.251] by mail.gmx.net (mp009) with SMTP; 07 Nov 2005 13:30:18 +0100 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 13:30:48 +0100 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: "J.B. Nicholson-Owens" Cc: ATOM syntax mailing list Subject: Re: How to specify multiple alternative encodings of the same content? Message-ID: <20051107123048.GA29499@klangraum> References: <436EE758.7070404@forestfield.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <436EE758.7070404@forestfield.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id HAA06753 * J.B. Nicholson-Owens [2005-11-07 06:40]: > I'd like to be able to tell the user's software that there are > multiple encodings of the same show, one in Ogg Vorbis, another > in FLAC, and a third in Speex. The basic idea is simple: However, there is currently no mechanism to specify that these enclosures are all equivalent, and that the client should pick only one of them. Clients which automatically download closures will probably take all three. There was just recently discussion about an extension that would allow specifying such subtleties; but I don=E2=80=99t know what the status of James=E2=80=99 I-D is. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 07 07:38:16 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZ6GO-0001Ff-0H for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 07:38:16 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA06804 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 07:37:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jA7CSfrB032455; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 04:28:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id jA7CSfTF032453; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 04:28:41 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from motgate3.mot.com (motgate3.mot.com [144.189.100.103]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jA7CSeVm032447 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 04:28:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Brett.Lindsley@motorola.com) Received: from az33exr03.mot.com (az33exr03.mot.com [10.64.251.233]) by motgate3.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate3) with ESMTP id jA7CisXo016463 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 05:44:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm66.ds.mot.com (de01exm66.am.mot.com [10.176.8.17]) by az33exr03.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jA7CcR08026010 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 06:38:28 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: How to specify multiple alternative encodings of the same content? Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 07:28:28 -0500 Message-ID: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B03A1@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> Thread-Topic: How to specify multiple alternative encodings of the same content? Thread-Index: AcXjXc8Bz5I8qYfFTLqeS6lpwpX/GgAOCw0A From: "Lindsley Brett-ABL001" To: "J.B. Nicholson-Owens" , "ATOM syntax mailing list" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id jA7CSfVm032448 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have raised this question a few times. The issue is separating the "resource" from its "representation". A single resource (e.g. a football game) may have many representations (audio only, slide show, audio/video, etc.). We would need a more sophisticated link mechanism to separate resources from representations. Is anyone else interested in this? Can this be done with an extension module? Brett Lindsley, Motorola Labs -----Original Message----- From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of J.B. Nicholson-Owens Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 11:34 PM To: ATOM syntax mailing list Subject: How to specify multiple alternative encodings of the same content? I maintain NewsFromNeptune.com, a website which points to an archive of recordings of a weekly political talk show called "News from Neptune". I'm considering using ATOM so listeners can be notified about new episodes entering the archive. I'd like to be able to tell the user's software that there are multiple encodings of the same show, one in Ogg Vorbis, another in FLAC, and a third in Speex. Given a URI to each encoding, the client could pick which one is appropriate for downloading. How do I specify this in ATOM? Thanks. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 07 09:00:05 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZ7XY-0007VY-JI for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 09:00:05 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA11150 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 08:59:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jA7Dsd5J048863; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 05:54:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id jA7Dsd8Q048862; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 05:54:39 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from earth.34sp.com (earth.34sp.com [195.50.105.51]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jA7Dsc9g048819 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 05:54:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: (qmail 25930 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2005 13:54:26 -0000 Received: from localhost.34sp.com (HELO localhost) (127.0.0.1) by localhost.34sp.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2005 13:54:26 -0000 Received: from host217-36-49-205.in-addr.btopenworld.com (host217-36-49-205.in-addr.btopenworld.com [217.36.49.205]) by webmail.djpowell.net (IMP) with HTTP for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 13:54:26 +0000 Message-ID: <1131371666.436f5c92a2f7a@webmail.djpowell.net> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 13:54:26 +0000 From: David Powell To: Lindsley Brett-ABL001 Cc: "J.B. Nicholson-Owens" , ATOM syntax mailing list Subject: RE: How to specify multiple alternative encodings of the same content? References: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B03A1@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> In-Reply-To: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B03A1@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.3 X-Originating-IP: 217.36.49.205 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Lindsley Brett-ABL001 : > I have raised this question a few times. The issue is separating the > "resource" from its "representation". A single resource (e.g. a football > game) may have many representations (audio only, slide show, > audio/video, etc.). We would need a more sophisticated link mechanism to > separate resources from representations. > > Is anyone else interested in this? Can this be done with an extension > module? I'm generally not a fan of adding attributes to atom elements rather than using the proper extensibility constructs, but how about something like this: This would support multiple resources, and multiple representations of each resouce in the same entry. Implementations that didn't support the extension would still work as before. Clients could select the best alternative from a full table of prefered MIME types without the impracticalities of sending a massive Accept: header as would be required by traditional HTTP conneg. -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 07 09:01:31 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZ7Yx-0007g1-F0 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 09:01:31 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA11206 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:01:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jA7DtvQU049362; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 05:55:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id jA7Dtv5w049361; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 05:55:57 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from motgate.mot.com (motgate.mot.com [129.188.136.100]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jA7Dtvg0049353 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 05:55:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Brett.Lindsley@motorola.com) Received: from az33exr02.mot.com (az33exr02.mot.com [10.64.251.232]) by motgate.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate) with ESMTP id jA7Dtu71027186 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 06:55:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm66.ds.mot.com (de01exm66.am.mot.com [10.176.8.17]) by az33exr02.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jA7E3knL008395 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 08:03:47 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: How to specify multiple alternative encodings of the same content? Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 08:55:42 -0500 Message-ID: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B03A3@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> Thread-Topic: How to specify multiple alternative encodings of the same content? Thread-Index: AcXjl/7L5X0WIpzZQrC/nVNTfc/6OgACiimw From: "Lindsley Brett-ABL001" To: "A. Pagaltzis" , "J.B. Nicholson-Owens" Cc: "ATOM syntax mailing list" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id jA7Dtvg0049356 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In following with the example below, one idea I toyed with was to include an ID attribute on the link. Links with the same ID were different representations of the same resource: In this example, there are two resources (ID1 and ID2) but each has three different representations. Would this work for your system? This was only a suggestion; there was no sanctioned WG resolution. Brett Lindsley, Motorola Labs -----Original Message----- From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of A. Pagaltzis Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 6:31 AM To: J.B. Nicholson-Owens Cc: ATOM syntax mailing list Subject: Re: How to specify multiple alternative encodings of the same content? * J.B. Nicholson-Owens [2005-11-07 06:40]: > I'd like to be able to tell the user's software that there are > multiple encodings of the same show, one in Ogg Vorbis, another > in FLAC, and a third in Speex. The basic idea is simple: However, there is currently no mechanism to specify that these enclosures are all equivalent, and that the client should pick only one of them. Clients which automatically download closures will probably take all three. There was just recently discussion about an extension that would allow specifying such subtleties; but I don't know what the status of James' I-D is. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 07 09:22:23 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZ7t9-0003UM-Ft for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 09:22:23 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA12284 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:21:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jA7EEvFk051923; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 06:14:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id jA7EEviT051922; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 06:14:57 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id jA7EEtP3051904 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 06:14:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 07 Nov 2005 14:14:49 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-248-251.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.248.251] by mail.gmx.net (mp034) with SMTP; 07 Nov 2005 15:14:49 +0100 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:15:26 +0100 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: How to specify multiple alternative encodings of the same content? Message-ID: <20051107141526.GB29499@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B03A3@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B03A3@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * Lindsley Brett-ABL001 [2005-11-07 15:05]: > In following with the example below, one idea I toyed with was > to include an ID attribute on the link. Links with the same ID > were different representations of the same resource: Check the recent thread, particularly the discussion from somewhere around (). A number of issues and approaches, including this one, have been brought up. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 07 09:56:56 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZ8QZ-0002MW-Sc for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 09:56:56 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA14434 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:56:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jA7Eoi6I058013; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 06:50:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id jA7EoiwG058012; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 06:50:44 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id jA7EogmA057991 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 06:50:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 07 Nov 2005 14:50:37 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-248-251.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.248.251] by mail.gmx.net (mp027) with SMTP; 07 Nov 2005 15:50:37 +0100 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:51:13 +0100 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: How to specify multiple alternative encodings of the same content? Message-ID: <20051107145113.GC29499@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C0B03A1@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> <1131371666.436f5c92a2f7a@webmail.djpowell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1131371666.436f5c92a2f7a@webmail.djpowell.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * David Powell [2005-11-07 15:45]: > I'm generally not a fan of adding attributes to atom elements > rather than using the proper extensibility constructs, but how > about something like this: This has come up before, and drawbacks have been pointed out. Again, see the previous discussion. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 07 09:59:42 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZ8TF-00033T-Ni for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 09:59:42 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA14658 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:59:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jA7EreRN058236; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 06:53:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id jA7Ereax058235; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 06:53:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.cegetel.net (mf01.sitadelle.com [212.94.174.68]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jA7ErdoL058219 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 06:53:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from t.broyer@cegetel.net) Received: from monmail.cegetel.net (217-19-192-113.dti.cegetel.net [217.19.192.113]) by smtp.cegetel.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 70EBB599D2F; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:53:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from 194.250.147.107 (SquirrelMail authenticated user t.broyer@cegetel.net) by monmail.cegetel.net with HTTP; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:53:33 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <1942.194.250.147.107.1131375213.squirrel@monmail.cegetel.net> In-Reply-To: <20051107123048.GA29499@klangraum> References: <436EE758.7070404@forestfield.org> <20051107123048.GA29499@klangraum> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:53:33 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: How to specify multiple alternative encodings of the same content? From: "Thomas Broyer" To: "A. Pagaltzis" Cc: "J.B. Nicholson-Owens" , "ATOM syntax mailing list" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id JAA14658 A. Pagaltzis wrote: > > * J.B. Nicholson-Owens [2005-11-07 06:40]: >> I'd like to be able to tell the user's software that there are >> multiple encodings of the same show, one in Ogg Vorbis, another >> in FLAC, and a third in Speex. > > The basic idea is simple: > > > > > > However, there is currently no mechanism to specify that these > enclosures are all equivalent, and that the client should pick > only one of them. Clients which automatically download closures > will probably take all three. How about: Not really equivalent to link[@rel=3D"enclosure"] though=85 --=20 Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 07 10:59:31 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZ9P8-0000DM-TE for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 10:59:31 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA19044 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 10:59:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jA7FpDPL065485; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 07:51:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id jA7FpDYW065484; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 07:51:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from xproxy.gmail.com (xproxy.gmail.com [66.249.82.194]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jA7FpB2e065478 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 07:51:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id s19so406065wxc for ; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 07:51:10 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=A1/t6bSqrXAZyIww3aKg+ZGcMKSpITWs+eA70+Hg8cu9i4GeTynopCakJguOqQN98Xc3iqlTV5zoYqm5CdlWzr6w7GWdjbmgd+NY5/8kwi3Bplfyt8wgyH6z/mSdgHJy7fDqpTErltXSMAi5gDXdHpsqFwSRfNRA3mdHGgzX8RY= Received: by 10.64.209.17 with SMTP id h17mr5415916qbg; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 07:51:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.107? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id q16sm4062083qbq.2005.11.07.07.51.10; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 07:51:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <436F77EA.7020609@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 07:51:06 -0800 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "A. Pagaltzis" CC: "J.B. Nicholson-Owens" , ATOM syntax mailing list Subject: Re: How to specify multiple alternative encodings of the same content? References: <436EE758.7070404@forestfield.org> <20051107123048.GA29499@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20051107123048.GA29499@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id KAA19044 It's in progress. A newborn tends to slow these things down a bit ;-)=20 Expect a draft by the end of the week. A. Pagaltzis wrote: > The basic idea is simple: >=20 > > > >=20 > However, there is currently no mechanism to specify that these > enclosures are all equivalent, and that the client should pick > only one of them. Clients which automatically download closures > will probably take all three. >=20 > There was just recently discussion about an extension that would > allow specifying such subtleties; but I don=E2=80=99t know what the > status of James=E2=80=99 I-D is. >=20 > Regards, From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 08 18:58:52 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZdMZ-0000y9-Tu for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Nov 2005 18:58:51 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA15919 for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 18:58:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jA8No3W8085558; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 15:50:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id jA8No35P085557; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 15:50:03 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from newodin.ietf.org ([132.151.6.50]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jA8No2xI085550 for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 15:50:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mlee@newodin.ietf.org) Received: from mlee by newodin.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1EZdE1-0005EE-Vd; Tue, 08 Nov 2005 18:50:01 -0500 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-06.txt Message-Id: Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 18:50:01 -0500 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Atom Publishing Format and Protocol Working Group of the IETF. Title : The Atom Publishing Protocol Author(s) : B. de Hora, J. Gregorio Filename : draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-06.txt Pages : 41 Date : 2005-11-8 The Atom Publishing Protocol (APP) is an application-level protocol for publishing and editing Web resources. The protocol is based on HTTP transport of Atom-formatted representations. The Atom format is documented in the Atom Syndication Format (draft-ietf-atompub-format-11.txt). A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-06.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-06.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-06.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-11-8161632.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-06.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-06.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-11-8161632.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Nov 10 03:01:06 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ea7Mo-0004uB-IM for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 03:01:06 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA14851 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 03:00:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jAA7qlrZ099459; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 23:52:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id jAA7qlK0099458; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 23:52:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [205.237.194.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jAA7qkZN099452 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 23:52:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [210.255.218.107] (unknown [210.255.218.107]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67E65A32EA for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 02:52:44 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <283626EC-DD91-423F-8918-DC94D09F796B@mnot.net> References: <1h4yfee.expm9p15y26o0M%pmrobinson@gmx.net> <283626EC-DD91-423F-8918-DC94D09F796B@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: New Link Relations -- Last Call Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:52:41 +0900 To: Atom Syntax X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've had a response; they're happy (Joe G can confirm this), and say they'll update their next draft to accommodate the regs. All systems go; requesting registration shortly. On 03/11/2005, at 6:54 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > On 24/10/2005, at 2:12 PM, Peter Robinson wrote: >> That is true, but have you communicated with the OpenSearch people >> about >> this? I do strongly believe that *here* is the place for work like >> this, rather than behind closed doors at Amazon. But if I was >> them I'd >> feel pretty miffed that this WG appears to have basically stolen >> their >> idea in a desperate 'land grab', and turned it on its head so that >> it is >> (arguably) the complete opposite of their intended definition. > > The only place to give them feedback is on a Web form. I've > submitted feedback and will wait to see if there's any response. -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Nov 12 04:52:38 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Eas3p-0004Ts-Qs for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 04:52:38 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA22888 for ; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 04:52:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jAC9QedE099377; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 01:26:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id jAC9Qec8099376; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 01:26:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.206]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jAC9Qer4099370 for ; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 01:26:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so817467nzf for ; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 01:26:39 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=G0rRtaD63KaKSsiwvqmOOJWY+A1iQnTzx0lWL8xowKV6u+NJXhDEzBdXFek86o89r/OZb2OKTFx+tQBBMnLIBKX1KZkGFzjdpzo5z4IhsduluFFHi4hDl5bFd7kZ0PQHxHorNj0ngLterXquCgsGboei48TdyYOOTuGwlFaCCeE= Received: by 10.37.15.74 with SMTP id s74mr2182637nzi; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 01:26:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.36.153.3 with HTTP; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 01:26:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0511120126s563eda8bse6ec9b69e64bb3b7@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 10:26:39 +0100 From: Danny Ayers To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= Subject: Re: What is this entry about? Cc: Atom Syntax , Henry Story , James M Snell , atom-owl@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <435A648C.7040006@dehora.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <43593E52.6020703@gmail.com> <20051021231850.GA686@klangraum> <43597E20.3040303@gmail.com> <435A49AD.1090100@dehora.net> <435A5163.2040909@gmail.com> <435A648C.7040006@dehora.net> X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id jAC9Qer4099371 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id EAA22888 Sorry Bill, only just noticed this - overactive Gmail filters... On 10/22/05, Bill de h=D3ra wrote: > James M Snell wrote: > > Bill de h=D3ra wrote: > > > >>> For instance, suppose that I want to > >>> indicate that an entry is about http://www.ibm.com and file that in= a > >>> category called technology? The categorization of the entry is > >>> different than the subject of the entry.. tho both are definitely > >>> related. > >>> > >> > >> > >> There are two distinct forms of discourse going on here > >> > >> - This entry is talking about some subject area or entity or resourc= e. > >> It says something about something else. Being able to do this pretty > >> much why RDF was invented. > >> > >> - This entry is classifiable under some subject area or topic or cla= ss. > >> It has something has sense of belonging or association to something > >> else. Being able to do this is pretty much why Topic Maps were inven= ted. > >> > >> Please, please, please, do not conflate these. > >> > >> > >> > > Oh absolutely, I'm not trying to conflate 'em. I want to find a > > solution to the first case ("this entry is talking about some subject > > area") that preferably does not involve invention or abuse of existin= g > > formats/tags. I'm more than aware that RDF does this already but I n= ot > > sure how that fact helps us in Atom (which is not RDF). > > [RDF and TM were exemplary; cc'd to Henry/Danny] > > Ah ok; I had read the proposal initially as subject classification > (dc:subject had me thinking that way). > > If you're looking for a way to say this is entry is saying stuff about > something over there, then dc:subject and atom:category aren't a good > fit as they're more or less pointing the wrong way. rdf:about is the > closest analog in semweb land (plus it takes urls), but it's the wrong > thing here (I'll get to this). > > You could do any of the following: > > - define an atom:about tag or attribute that takes a URL. > - use a @rel=3Dabout on a link tag > > You can't use an rdf:about on the atom:entry element for this and that'= s > to do with entry metadata associations. What we want to say is that the > entry to talking about something else. With rdf:about the entry > *metadata* will become bound to the something else and not the entry > (which is messed up). The only sensible way I see is to work in terms o= f > the entry URI and the URI you're pointing at: 'entryURI isabout > someOtherURI' and define a new term for this purpose. Anyone that wants > to model this formally has enough information in the entry markup to > consistently generate the correct RDF statements out of band. > > [I'm not suggesting RDF stuff for this - it's just very useful for > teasing out issues] (I've cc'ed the atom-owl list, this is certainly in scope over there). I think Bill's right about the direction being the issue, and has probably got the right answer with adding another property to the entryURI, but there's a fair bit of devil in the detail. There's a slight mismatch between Atom's id and resource identification in the RDF sense (Henry, you've looked at this hardest - please correct me if I'm wrong). Entries can appear with different values but the same id, e.g. [[ If multiple atom:entry elements with the same atom:id value appear in an Atom Feed Document, they represent the same entry. Their atom: updated timestamps SHOULD be different. ]] 4.1.1 So if atom:id is treated as the entry resource URI then in a literal RDF interpretation of the Atom spec you either end up with information loss, older versions of the entry ceasing to exist (which doesn't really work with either Atom or the RDF model) or contradictions, e.g. more than one content value for an entry when the properties of the resources are lined up together. The way we got around this in Atom/OWL is to make the entry itself a blank node, with atom:id being a property of it. The unique identification of the entry node being provided by the combination of the id, updated (and some other stuff - multiple language support is a complication). This seems to work pretty well for most purposes - an application could either take the "forget older entry versions" processing model, or accumulate all the versions. But when it comes to saying what the entry in about, I think you'd almost certainly expect all *versions* of an entry to be about the same thing, so the subject of the statement would be the id URI. This is easy enough in RDF (the id is a resource), but it's not obvious how this migght be expressed in Atom syntax. So in short I'd say "what Bill said", and then run away... Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Nov 12 07:10:51 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EauDb-0007ST-F0 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 07:10:51 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA28136 for ; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 07:10:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jACBmxIw022961; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 03:48:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id jACBmx4e022960; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 03:48:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jACBmxJQ022946 for ; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 03:48:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 14002 invoked by uid 17064); 12 Nov 2005 11:48:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [IPv6:::1]) ([193.179.31.75]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 12 Nov 2005 11:48:57 -0000 In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd0511120126s563eda8bse6ec9b69e64bb3b7@mail.gmail.com> References: <43593E52.6020703@gmail.com> <20051021231850.GA686@klangraum> <43597E20.3040303@gmail.com> <435A49AD.1090100@dehora.net> <435A5163.2040909@gmail.com> <435A648C.7040006@dehora.net> <1f2ed5cd0511120126s563eda8bse6ec9b69e64bb3b7@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= , Atom Syntax , James M Snell , atom-owl@googlegroups.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: What is this entry about? Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 12:48:56 +0100 To: Danny Ayers X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12 Nov 2005, at 10:26, Danny Ayers wrote: > [snipped a very good conversation] > > (I've cc'ed the atom-owl list, this is certainly in scope over there). > > I think Bill's right about the direction being the issue, and has > probably got the right answer with adding another property to the > entryURI, but there's a fair bit of devil in the detail. > > There's a slight mismatch between Atom's id and resource > identification in the RDF sense (Henry, you've looked at this hardest > - please correct me if I'm wrong). Entries can appear with different > values but the same id, e.g. > [[ > If multiple atom:entry elements with the same atom:id value appear in > an Atom Feed Document, they represent the same entry. Their atom: > updated timestamps SHOULD be different. > ]] 4.1.1 > > So if atom:id is treated as the entry resource URI then in a literal > RDF interpretation of the Atom spec you either end up with information > loss, older versions of the entry ceasing to exist (which doesn't > really work with either Atom or the RDF model) or contradictions, e.g. > more than one content value for an entry when the properties of the > resources are lined up together. yes. Very well explained. I'll just fill out the details again below, for those who may be new to this [1]. If you take the example Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok urn:uuid:1225c695-cfb8-4ebb-aaaa-80da344efa6a 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z Some text. you DON't want to model it as: :title "Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok"^^xsd:string; :updated "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:date . because if a feed contained a correction of the above entry say Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok in France urn:uuid:1225c695-cfb8-4ebb-aaaa-80da344efa6a 2005-12-13T18:30:02Z Some updated text. then you would have :title "Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok in France"^^xsd:string; :updated "2005-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:date . And so by smushing the graph you would end up with something that was not very useful such as :title "Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok"^^xsd:string; :title "Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok in France"^^xsd:string; :updated "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:date . :updated "2005-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:date . And you would no longer know which title belonged with which updated time stamp. > The way we got around this in Atom/OWL is to make the entry itself a > blank node, with atom:id being a property of it. The unique > identification of the entry node being provided by the combination of > the id, updated (and some other stuff - multiple language support is a > complication). Yes. The correct way to model it is therefore [] a :Entry; :title [ :value "Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok"; :type "text/plain" ]; :link [ :href ; :rel iana:alternate ]; :id ; :updated "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:dateTime; :summary [ :value "some text"; :type "text/plain" ]. ie, as Danny says, to apply the :title, :link, etc relations to a blank node of type :Entry. By defining :id as functional we allow different blank node :Entry s to have the same id, and so the contradiction we had before no longer exists. This is not so complicated really, it is just easy to be mislead by the 'id' word and think that it must be a strong identity relation, rather than a weaker one. (ie, to think that the relation is not just functional, but also inverse functional symmetric and transitive) > This seems to work pretty well for most purposes - an > application could either take the "forget older entry versions" > processing model, or accumulate all the versions. yes. > But when it comes to > saying what the entry in about, I think you'd almost certainly expect > all *versions* of an entry to be about the same thing, so the subject > of the statement would be the id URI. This is easy enough in RDF (the > id is a resource), but it's not obvious how this migght be expressed > in Atom syntax. For a long time I wanted to put properties on the id when I felt they were necessary properties of the thing. The problem as James Gosling reminded me [2] is that defining essential properties of things can be quite tricky. And I suppose that many a document that started about one thing ended up being about something quite different. So I would tend initially towards conservatism, and not put any property on the id. One could of course invent/discover such a property say :idabout that would have the following rule associated with it { ?id :idabout ?obj . ?entry :id ?id . } => { ?entry :about ?obj . } So the relation exists. It is just that it is very powerful relation, with a lot of consequences that the user may not fully appreciate. Furthermore it is not possible to write this relation out in atom syntax easily because the id is an element content urn:uuid:1225c695-cfb8-4ebb-aaaa-80da344efa6a and so there is no way to attach elements to it. > > So in short I'd say "what Bill said", and then run away... The link element sounds like a good way to me. You would then have something like [] a :Entry; :title [ :value "IBM Atom Robots Run Amok"; :type "text/plain" ]; :link [ :href ; :rel iana:alternate ]; :link [ :href ; :rel xxx:about ]; :category [ a :Category; :term "technology"; :scheme ]; :id ; :updated "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:dateTime; :summary [ :value "IBM's new atom powered robots ran amok in France, after having gone through some french integration courses. Question is: did they integrate too well?"; :type "text/plain" ]. By the way, here is a nice little trick that I put in the Atom-OWL. A link is defined as subclass of rdf:Statement with the extra property by asserting a link one also asserts the statement that it is, ie: { ?link :subject ?state; :rel ?rel; :href ?obj . } => { ?state ?rel ?obj . } . So the above entry is equivalent to the following [] a :Entry; :title [ :value "IBM Atom Robots Run Amok"; :type "text/plain" ]; iana:alternate ; xxx:about ; :category [ a :Category; :term "technology"; :scheme ]; :id ; :updated "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:dateTime; :summary [ :value "IBM's new atom powered robots ran amok in France, after having gone through some french integration courses. Question is: did they integrate too well?"; :type "text/plain" ]. Which I think is neat. Henry > Cheers, > Danny. > [1] I was already working on this problem in early 2004 https://bloged.dev.java.net/servlets/ReadMsg?list=users&msgNo=208 [2] https://bloged.dev.java.net/servlets/ReadMsg?list=users&msgNo=357 but in fact, a lot more is understood about essential properties than the problem of the ship of theseus would let one believe. A lively topic in philosophy. > -- > > http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Nov 12 08:10:57 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Eav9h-0008CK-UZ for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 08:10:57 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA01946 for ; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 08:10:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jACCw5LC037406; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 04:58:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id jACCw5PT037405; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 04:58:05 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-vbr2.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr2.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.22]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jACCw4AH037395 for ; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 04:58:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sjoerd@w3future.com) Received: from [10.0.0.2] (w3future.xs4all.nl [213.84.155.207]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp-vbr2.xs4all.nl (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id jACCvnbt089726; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 13:57:55 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from sjoerd@w3future.com) Message-ID: <4375E6B7.8040304@w3future.com> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 13:57:27 +0100 From: Sjoerd Visscher User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.4 (Windows/20050908) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "J.B. Nicholson-Owens" CC: ATOM syntax mailing list Subject: Re: How to specify multiple alternative encodings of the same content? References: <436EE758.7070404@forestfield.org> In-Reply-To: <436EE758.7070404@forestfield.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J.B. Nicholson-Owens wrote: > > I maintain NewsFromNeptune.com, a website which points to an archive of > recordings of a weekly political talk show called "News from Neptune". > I'm considering using ATOM so listeners can be notified about new > episodes entering the archive. > > I'd like to be able to tell the user's software that there are multiple > encodings of the same show, one in Ogg Vorbis, another in FLAC, and a > third in Speex. Given a URI to each encoding, the client could pick > which one is appropriate for downloading. > > How do I specify this in ATOM? Ideally, just like in XHTML 2.0[1], I think the type attribute should have the option of providing multiple content-types. So the link would become: Or with preferences: Or even with multiple languages: But this would require HTTP content negotiation, which I think is not practical for most users. [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-handler.html#adef_handler_type -- Sjoerd Visscher http://w3future.com/weblog/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Nov 12 20:04:50 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Eb6Ic-0000z0-7F for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 20:04:50 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA03650 for ; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 20:04:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jAD0toie055736; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 16:55:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id jAD0torg055734; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 16:55:50 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com (ms-smtp-03-lbl.southeast.rr.com [24.25.9.102]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jAD0tmQF055721; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 16:55:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.2.100] (cpe-066-057-027-065.nc.res.rr.com [66.57.27.65]) by ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id jAD0tjfU011399; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 19:55:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <43768F0C.6020502@intertwingly.net> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 19:55:40 -0500 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax , Atom-Protocol Subject: AtomPubIssuesList for 2005/11/12 References: <412B23C4.9010602@intertwingly.net> <4130E11B.3000600@intertwingly.net> <41546A46.60507@intertwingly.net> <4166C99A.4040603@intertwingly.net> <41812CA8.6090501@intertwingly.net> <4198C7F6.7040606@intertwingly.net> <41AF672A.60106@intertwingly.net> <41E3E56F.1030209@intertwingly.net> <41E444EB.6030903@intertwingly.net> <41E6D8BC.405@intertwingly.net> <4207A5D7.6040704@intertwingly.net> <421B5057.2020603@intertwingly.net> <427A00AC.5020007@intertwingly.net> <42B9958E.4060504@intertwingly.net> <42BAD7E1.6010307@intertwingly.net> <4300D88F.5030400@intertwingly.net> <431CE44B.6020303@intertwingly.net> In-Reply-To: <431CE44B.6020303@intertwingly.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After the chairs cleared away a number of issues[1], discussion has focused on collections and introspection. The following paces are currently under discussion. PaceFeedsNotCollections PaceIntrospectAsFeed PaceIntrospectionInSeparateDraft PaceNoCollectionsInsideCollections PaceRemoveListTemplate PaceRemoveMemberTypeMust PaceReworkCollectionMembership PaceReworkIntrospection PaceReworkProtocolModel PaceSimpleIntroduction PaceUseAppOutlines As always, discussion of these paces should occur on the atom protocol list, with a subject line identifying which pace you are expressing an opinion on. Additionally, a large number of Paces have not been updated to reflect the latest drafts, have been withdrawn, or are otherwise obsolete. If nobody comes forward to claim any of these, they will be summarily closed: PaceAppDocuments2 PaceInsignificantUpdate PaceAuthentication PaceIntrospectOneCollectionAtATime PaceBatch PaceInvalidAtom PaceClarifyCollectionAndDeleteMethod PacePostAnyToEntryCollection PaceCollectionControl+ControlAsMetadata PacePostOnlyCollections PaceCollectionControl+IgnoreUnknown PaceReworkCollectionListing PaceCollectionControl+OrderingSignificant PaceSimpleNotify PaceCollectionControl+StripPubControl PaceSimplifyCollectionDescription PaceCollectionsAcceptedMediaTypes PaceSimplifyCollections2 PaceCollectionsInsideCollections PaceSimplifyIntrospection PaceCompoundEntries PaceSOAPGateway PaceEditLinkMustToMay PaceUseContentDisposition PaceErrorReports PaceXHTMLIntrospection PaceFixDateRangeParams06 PaceXHTMLIntrospection2 - Sam Ruby [1] http://www.imc.org/atom-protocol/mail-archive/msg02970.html From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Nov 12 20:29:17 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Eb6gH-0007ag-93 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 20:29:17 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA04450 for ; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 20:28:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jAD1LoS8062800; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 17:21:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id jAD1Lon4062798; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 17:21:50 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.199]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jAD1Ln83062766 for ; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 17:21:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luke.arno@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id q3so885211nzb for ; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 17:21:48 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=n9bAqKm10c4UHBk1gaM2Ah2Co5D+EHcpDEH09ENyJxQoqMmcC17QMx0opyxNCV3v2lbgvpFUHzmM9OlH1+/xZuHwgFMwcQxz+oxotadUDXLZI0OWxACPs0Is/GHieCK9yIKEOXc3bJItF2TtP0pWiU2kGYlOBMyLVUhdK+WcxBE= Received: by 10.36.38.13 with SMTP id l13mr2651489nzl; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 17:21:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.36.120.10 with HTTP; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 17:21:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 20:21:48 -0500 From: Luke Arno To: Sam Ruby Subject: Re: AtomPubIssuesList for 2005/11/12 Cc: Atom Syntax , Atom-Protocol In-Reply-To: <43768F0C.6020502@intertwingly.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <412B23C4.9010602@intertwingly.net> <41E6D8BC.405@intertwingly.net> <4207A5D7.6040704@intertwingly.net> <421B5057.2020603@intertwingly.net> <427A00AC.5020007@intertwingly.net> <42B9958E.4060504@intertwingly.net> <42BAD7E1.6010307@intertwingly.net> <4300D88F.5030400@intertwingly.net> <431CE44B.6020303@intertwingly.net> <43768F0C.6020502@intertwingly.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id jAD1Ln83062779 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Regarding PaceEditLinkMustToMay, Tim said: "No consensus yet, but not impossible; schedule formally." Also, is there any problem with PaceDecoupleDiscoverAndCreate? It is somewhat radical but starts with the current draft, provides camera ready copy and solves some of the problems on which we are currently working. http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceDecoupleDiscoverAndCreate Thanks. - Luke On 11/12/05, Sam Ruby wrote: > > After the chairs cleared away a number of issues[1], discussion has > focused on collections and introspection. The following paces are > currently under discussion. > > PaceFeedsNotCollections > PaceIntrospectAsFeed > PaceIntrospectionInSeparateDraft > PaceNoCollectionsInsideCollections > PaceRemoveListTemplate > PaceRemoveMemberTypeMust > PaceReworkCollectionMembership > PaceReworkIntrospection > PaceReworkProtocolModel > PaceSimpleIntroduction > PaceUseAppOutlines > > As always, discussion of these paces should occur on the atom protocol > list, with a subject line identifying which pace you are expressing an > opinion on. > > Additionally, a large number of Paces have not been updated to reflect > the latest drafts, have been withdrawn, or are otherwise obsolete. If > nobody comes forward to claim any of these, they will be summarily closed: > > PaceAppDocuments2 PaceInsignificantUpdate > PaceAuthentication > PaceIntrospectOneCollectionAtATime > PaceBatch PaceInvalidAtom > PaceClarifyCollectionAndDeleteMethod PacePostAnyToEntryCollection > PaceCollectionControl+ControlAsMetadata PacePostOnlyCollections > PaceCollectionControl+IgnoreUnknown PaceReworkCollectionListing > PaceCollectionControl+OrderingSignificant PaceSimpleNotify > PaceCollectionControl+StripPubControl > PaceSimplifyCollectionDescription > PaceCollectionsAcceptedMediaTypes PaceSimplifyCollections2 > PaceCollectionsInsideCollections PaceSimplifyIntrospection > PaceCompoundEntries PaceSOAPGateway > PaceEditLinkMustToMay PaceUseContentDisposition > PaceErrorReports PaceXHTMLIntrospection > PaceFixDateRangeParams06 PaceXHTMLIntrospection2 > > - Sam Ruby > > [1] http://www.imc.org/atom-protocol/mail-archive/msg02970.html > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 14 08:42:31 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EbebO-0001mY-L0 for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:42:31 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA21055 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:41:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jAEDWbUq016149; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 05:32:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id jAEDWb6e016148; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 05:32:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jAEDWbLu016142 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 05:32:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 32959 invoked by uid 17064); 14 Nov 2005 13:32:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [IPv6:::1]) ([193.179.31.75]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 14 Nov 2005 13:32:36 -0000 In-Reply-To: References: <43593E52.6020703@gmail.com> <20051021231850.GA686@klangraum> <43597E20.3040303@gmail.com> <435A49AD.1090100@dehora.net> <435A5163.2040909@gmail.com> <435A648C.7040006@dehora.net> <1f2ed5cd0511120126s563eda8bse6ec9b69e64bb3b7@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <257B0C34-C408-4C85-B08C-D5D6F0B20C7D@bblfish.net> Cc: Danny Ayers , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= , Atom Syntax , James M Snell Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: What is this entry about? Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 14:32:33 +0100 To: atom-owl@googlegroups.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just thought I'd mention that there is of course nothing in rdf that can stop anyone giving things names. So that the blank node could be given a name such as a :Entry; :title [ :value "Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok"; :type "text/plain" ]; :link [ :href ; :rel iana:alternate ]; :id ; :updated "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:dateTime; :summary [ :value "some text"; :type "text/plain" ]. And so I suppose you could treat as an Entry itself, give it a title, a link, an id, etc I am not sure this makes sense. I have formalised this doubt in the Atom-OWL ontology by the following statement: :Version a owl:Class; rdfs:comment "Metadata about the state of a resource with given :id at an :updated time."@en; rdfs:subClassOf [ owl:complementOf :Id ]. Since :Entry and :Feed are subclasses of :Version, that means that Entries or feeds cannot be ids. Perhaps that is too harsh. Henry Story On 12 Nov 2005, at 12:48, Henry Story wrote: > >> The way we got around this in Atom/OWL is to make the entry itself a >> blank node, with atom:id being a property of it. The unique >> identification of the entry node being provided by the combination of >> the id, updated (and some other stuff - multiple language support >> is a >> complication). > > Yes. The correct way to model it is therefore > > [] a :Entry; > :title [ :value "Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok"; > :type "text/plain" ]; > :link [ :href ; > :rel iana:alternate ]; > :id ; > :updated "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:dateTime; > :summary [ :value "some text"; > :type "text/plain" ]. > > > ie, as Danny says, to apply the :title, :link, etc relations to a > blank node > of type :Entry. By defining :id as functional we allow different > blank node > :Entry s to have the same id, and so the contradiction we had > before no > longer exists. > > This is not so complicated really, it is just easy to be mislead by > the 'id' word > and think that it must be a strong identity relation, rather than a > weaker one. > (ie, to think that the relation is not just functional, but also > inverse functional > symmetric and transitive) >> From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 21 12:04:29 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EeF5h-0003dt-Rl for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 12:04:29 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA14898 for ; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 12:03:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jALGnUOc004653; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:49:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id jALGnU0d004652; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:49:30 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jALGnTU2004641 for ; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:49:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id s18so962640nze for ; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:49:25 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=eNTJHzuxKjzfqnzIQMbPhejvI6h8/VhS0aa1Q90vDxOKoK15dSRHpUMq/hkxdgQZDNV5sXM7PzPc+4fS0BzUxWX0r7eMnpHMIp7z+1ny/Hx5LcAB+1VYXDdz8JMvhibSvssxVJMieg79pyjLdlmnH7YO4TGOnKL/b0yJhXXqD1c= Received: by 10.65.147.13 with SMTP id z13mr3221162qbn; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:49:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id a5sm364200qbd.2005.11.21.08.49.20; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:49:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4381FA8E.1070500@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:49:18 -0800 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ATOM syntax mailing list Subject: FYI: Microsoft Simple Sharing Extensions for RSS and OPML Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI... in case any of you hadn't seen this yet: http://msdn.microsoft.com/xml/rss/sse/ It basically just adds related links and version/changing history to RSS along with a corresponding processing model for synchronizing multiple feeds. Family Contacts (Dad's Copy) Family Contacts (Suzy's Copy) ... This is a test item It's interesting to see that they've reinvented related links and have introduced a globally unique id and updated bits to the RSS feed. -- - James Be a catalyst for change http://www.habitatjam.com/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 23 06:34:34 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EestU-0004YY-5b for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 06:34:34 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA16960 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 06:33:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jANBMe7i064867; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 03:22:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id jANBMeO6064866; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 03:22:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jANBMevE064860 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 03:22:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 31270 invoked by uid 17064); 23 Nov 2005 11:22:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [IPv6:::1]) ([192.220.66.168]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 23 Nov 2005 11:22:39 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: bloged Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Atom, files and directories: what it's all about Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:22:38 +0100 To: atom-owl@googlegroups.com, Atom Syntax X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I suppose I am kind of slow in some ways. Perhaps everyone has realized this all along. But the relation between atom and a file system has just struck me forcefully recently. REST does not have the notion of a directory hierarchy. You may think it does because urls have slashes in them, and because you can browse the file system in a web browser. But really you are just lucky that most people use hierarchical file systems to construct their urls. The pages you get back if you point your browser to something like http://bblfish.net/bloged/ is an html human readable representation of the contents of a directory. What is a feed? It is a machine readable representation of the RESTful equivalent of a directory. What is an entry? It is the machine readable representation of the RESTful equivalent of a file. Directories contain files. Feeds contain entries. Files contain 'content'. Entries contain content too. When you type 'ls -ali' in a directory bash-2.03$ ls -ali total 61 2705932 drwxr-xr-x 3 hjs vuser 512 Nov 22 16:10 ./ 2662433 drwxr-xr-x 34 hjs vuser 1024 Nov 22 16:10 ../ 2705933 -rw-r--r-- 1 hjs vuser 2059 Nov 22 16:10 BlogEd.jnlp 2705934 -rw-r--r-- 1 hjs vuser 49674 Nov 22 16:10 BlogEd.tiff 2705935 drwxr-xr-x 2 hjs vuser 1024 Nov 22 16:10 lib/ you get all kinds of metadata about the directory '.', and about the files in the directory. The first number is the inode, which is a little like the src url of the content. Same when you look at a basic feed Example Feed 2003-12-13T18:30:02Z John Doe urn:uuid:60a76c80-d399-11d9-b93C-0003939e0af6 Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok in France urn:uuid:1225c695-cfb8-4ebb-aaaa-80da344efa6a 2005-11-13T18:30:02Z Some text. type="xhtml" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://diveintomark.org/">

After a crash course in french cultural integration...

 The information is just presented differently. The xml makes it easier for machines to parse the content, as it deals with all the problems of unicode and separation of the data. Yes you can use sed and grep in unix, but you always will come across weird corner cases, such as when a file has a blank space in it, non ascii weird characters, ... Entries and Feeds are therefore both containers. In Unix we have known this all along: everything is a file. It is just that Directories are special kinds of files, that contain files themselves. So, as I have argued for a long time, Feeds are really types of Entries. Feeds can have images (icons) associated with them. In most end user file systems, so can folders. The atom group is working on adding the ability to add icons and images to entries too, then the symmetry will be complete. Entries are really containers for file metadata. As OSX is slowly moving to enabling file system metadata [1], % xattr --set name John file % xattr --set color red file % xattr --list file file color red name John so using the link relation one can add all types of metadata on feeds or entries Atom draft-07 snapshot tag:example.org,2003:3.2397 ... The attribute value of the rel relation is in fact a url, as befits a web document text, and people can add whatever metadata they like there. By adding a "feed" link relation one allows feeds to point to feeds, which is the equivalent of directories inside directories. A few improvements of atom over directories is that our feed can contain not just the current version of an entry, but all previous versions as well, which I think I remember was a feature supported by the vms file system. Of course the URI id construct and the fact that the web does not have partitions, allows one to keep track of the identity of a file over the whole web, which simple inodes just cannot do. Henry Story [1] http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/macosx-10.4.ars/7 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 25 18:59:50 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EfnTp-0003VV-Qm for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 18:59:49 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA04821 for ; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 18:59:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jAPNqwqu003967; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 15:52:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id jAPNqwlJ003966; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 15:52:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id jAPNqpIw003952 for ; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 15:52:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 25 Nov 2005 23:52:44 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-227-218.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.227.218] by mail.gmx.net (mp033) with SMTP; 26 Nov 2005 00:52:44 +0100 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 00:53:23 +0100 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Is there a bug in undefinedAttribute? Message-ID: <20051125235323.GB30755@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id SAA04821 Hello group, over in #atom on irc.freenode.net, I was just explaining to John Clark that xml:id is not forbidden by the spec, even though it=E2=80=99s not explicitly allowed. As spec language was examined, we discovered the following oddity in the RNC: undefinedAttribute =3D attribute * - (xml:base | xml:lang | local:*) { text } If I=E2=80=99m reading that right, the RNC schema currently validates documents with made-up attributes in the Atom namespace. Am I? And if so, shouldn=E2=80=99t that declaration rather read as follows? undefinedAttribute =3D attribute * - (xml:base | xml:lang | atom:* | local:*) { text } (Oh, and btw =E2=80=93 the channel has plenty of room for more people!) Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 28 17:25:23 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EgrR3-0007Th-4B for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:25:23 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA01771 for ; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:24:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jASMGLFG023164; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:16:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id jASMGLBI023163; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:16:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-out4.apple.com (mail-out4.apple.com [17.254.13.23]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jASMGK9p023151 for ; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:16:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from prabhaka@apple.com) Received: from relay5.apple.com (a17-128-113-35.apple.com [17.128.113.35]) by mail-out4.apple.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jASMGC7f026016; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:16:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.112.108.151] (unknown [17.112.108.151]) by relay5.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id 5F389324014; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:16:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ernest Prabhakar Subject: Re: Atom, files and directories: what it's all about Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:16:11 -0800 To: Henry Story X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Henry, On Nov 23, 2005, at 3:22 AM, Henry Story wrote: > A few improvements of atom over directories is that our feed can > contain not just the current version of an entry, but all previous > versions as well, which I think I remember was a feature supported > by the vms file system. Interesting. It reminds me of a thought I had a while ago: would it be possible to emulate 80% of WebDAV by using HTTP + Atom? Would we also need some sort of list structure, a la XOXO? http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo -- Ernie P. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 28 18:46:30 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Egsha-0002n4-0P for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 18:46:30 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA10163 for ; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 18:45:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jASNVJLV031761; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:31:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id jASNVJZF031760; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:31:19 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.196]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jASNVIBc031753 for ; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:31:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luke.arno@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id q3so2409030nzb for ; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:31:18 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=BXBFvxa8V6S8QW59H39e1hWKRRyp+TpMI0V3MTRqR17XimZb0QKqKc+r3/U8CzpCrhGLCXgf+zH+B+gH/JP7gl+TOgrkpaLjx/gnBnA6/GIPM8Ja7eZ/gC5ONqG2ISSulHmBOY7nW3+iPtjsnySSr+OHz5xu/JXckgUlALgQ4Zc= Received: by 10.36.91.6 with SMTP id o6mr3805008nzb; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:31:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.36.120.10 with HTTP; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:31:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 18:31:18 -0500 From: Luke Arno To: Ernest Prabhakar Subject: Re: Atom, files and directories: what it's all about Cc: Henry Story , Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id jASNVIBc031754 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 11/28/05, Ernest Prabhakar wrote: > > Hi Henry, > > On Nov 23, 2005, at 3:22 AM, Henry Story wrote: > > A few improvements of atom over directories is that our feed can > > contain not just the current version of an entry, but all previous > > versions as well, which I think I remember was a feature supported > > by the vms file system. > > Interesting. It reminds me of a thought I had a while ago: would it > be possible to emulate 80% of WebDAV by using HTTP + Atom? Would we > also need some sort of list structure, a la XOXO? > > http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo > Yup, but Atom Feed _is_ a list format. :-) You should check out some of the recent introspection discussion that went on over on Atom Pub. - Luke - Luke From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Nov 29 04:38:44 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Eh1wi-0006fn-Bg for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 04:38:44 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA08753 for ; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 04:37:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jAT9PDKh095460; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 01:25:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id jAT9PDtf095459; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 01:25:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jAT9PChI095444 for ; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 01:25:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 49015 invoked by uid 17064); 29 Nov 2005 09:25:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [IPv6:::1]) ([192.220.66.168]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 29 Nov 2005 09:25:12 -0000 In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <58A57127-54B9-44C9-AE22-ED1A1DC1504F@bblfish.net> Cc: Ernest Prabhakar , Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: Atom, files and directories: what it's all about Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 10:25:09 +0100 To: Luke Arno X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 29 Nov 2005, at 00:31, Luke Arno wrote: > On 11/28/05, Ernest Prabhakar wrote: >> >> Hi Henry, >> >> On Nov 23, 2005, at 3:22 AM, Henry Story wrote: >>> A few improvements of atom over directories is that our feed can >>> contain not just the current version of an entry, but all previous >>> versions as well, which I think I remember was a feature supported >>> by the vms file system. >> >> Interesting. It reminds me of a thought I had a while ago: would it >> be possible to emulate 80% of WebDAV by using HTTP + Atom? I think that is very much the idea. If you check what is going on on the atom protocol group you will find that they are moving in that direction http://bitworking.org/projects/atom/ >> Would we >> also need some sort of list structure, a la XOXO? >> >> http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo >> > > Yup, but Atom Feed _is_ a list format. :-) Mhh. An Atom feed is a *Set* of entries. Not a list of entries. The entries are not ordered in any particular way in a feed. That is stated in the spec section 4.1.1 [[ This specification assigns no significance to the order of atom:entry elements within the feed. ]] In this sense it is again like the files in a directory. You can sort them different ways using options to the ls command, or if you have a graphical browser by clicking the different columns, but there is no objectively better order than another. In html one could perhaps represent them as un unordered list, which is perhaps what the xoxo people intend. > > You should check out some of the recent introspection > discussion that went on over on Atom Pub. > > - Luke > > - Luke From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 30 21:33:11 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EheFy-0003kD-Qi for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:33:10 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA06119 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:32:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jB12JxXV085276; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:19:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id jB12Jx57085274; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:19:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vanadium.sabren.com (vanadium.sabren.com [67.19.173.84]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jB12Jwdm085263; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:19:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.1.112] (cpe-066-057-027-065.nc.res.rr.com [66.57.27.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by vanadium.sabren.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jB12JvT6018528; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:19:57 -0500 Message-ID: <438E5DCB.20802@intertwingly.net> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:19:55 -0500 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax , Atom-Protocol Subject: AtomPubIssuesList for 2005/11/30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sceduling the remaining Introspection/Collection paces as well as the ones that are under active discussion anyway: PaceAllowLinkedIntrospectionDocuments PaceAllowNestedCollectionsAndWorkspaces PaceAllowNestedCollections PaceCollectionOrderSignificance PaceCollectionsAcceptedMediaTypes PaceDecoupleCreateAndListEndpoints PaceReplaceTypeWithAccept2 PaceReworkIntrospection PaceReworkListingDescription PaceWorkflows PaceUseLinkHeaders As always, discussion of these paces should occur on the atom protocol list, with a subject line identifying which pace you are expressing an opinion on. Additionally, I'm recommending the following for closure: PaceCollectionProcess PaceDecoupleDiscoverAndCreate PaceGenericTitle PaceGenericTitleAndId PaceJustLinks PaceLinksAndWorkspaces PageListTemplates PaceReplaceTypeWithAccept PaceReworkPostOnMemberResource PaceServiceDescription - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 30 22:25:37 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ehf4i-0008PE-VG for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 22:25:37 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11266 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 22:24:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jB13BZ0s090370; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 19:11:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id jB13BZXC090368; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 19:11:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.195]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jB13BYDs090354 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 19:11:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so160460nzf for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 19:11:33 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=cBeRgBwkkcP1h0enWR5oUuhVF+GK7rE51Ij7FaOR2SXtA6opKX2PG4QkZ65GYD7JvPp1BweNC+Uno9za2538z1NYg0m6OaWX62bzpM4o1q0VB+9/8Rzbz34HlB2Da52XF3UypVNCAzfduDaupIIDLBJkKbUBh4+2tZpay/KiJCI= Received: by 10.36.3.15 with SMTP id 15mr1139156nzc; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 19:11:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.37.12.8 with HTTP; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 19:11:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <68fba5c50511301911k797d312ehd77213fa29d01066@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 22:11:33 -0500 From: Robert Sayre To: Sam Ruby Subject: Re: AtomPubIssuesList for 2005/11/30 Cc: Atom Syntax , Atom-Protocol In-Reply-To: <438E5DCB.20802@intertwingly.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <438E5DCB.20802@intertwingly.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id jB13BYDs090356 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 11/30/05, Sam Ruby wrote: > > Sceduling the remaining Introspection/Collection paces as well as the > ones that are under active discussion anyway: > > Additionally, I'm recommending the following for closure: > Hi Sam! I noticed you moved PaceFeedsNotCollections and PaceSimpleIntroduction into the Closed section. That certainly seems reasonable to me, since they received opposition and little support. However, the record of their transition needs to be documented on the mailing list by the secretary or chairs. thanks! -- Robert Sayre "I would have written a shorter letter, but I did not have the time." From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 30 23:40:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EhgEs-0004SH-Cp for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:40:10 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA16870 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:39:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jB14SPsL099294; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:28:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id jB14SP75099292; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:28:25 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vanadium.sabren.com (vanadium.sabren.com [67.19.173.84]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jB14SOQq099277; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:28:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.1.112] (cpe-066-057-027-065.nc.res.rr.com [66.57.27.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by vanadium.sabren.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jB14SIbr032346; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:28:18 -0500 Message-ID: <438E7BE1.4010606@intertwingly.net> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:28:17 -0500 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Sayre CC: Atom Syntax , Atom-Protocol Subject: Re: AtomPubIssuesList for 2005/11/30 References: <438E5DCB.20802@intertwingly.net> <68fba5c50511301911k797d312ehd77213fa29d01066@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <68fba5c50511301911k797d312ehd77213fa29d01066@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Sayre wrote: > On 11/30/05, Sam Ruby wrote: > >>Sceduling the remaining Introspection/Collection paces as well as the >>ones that are under active discussion anyway: > >>Additionally, I'm recommending the following for closure: > > Hi Sam! > > I noticed you moved PaceFeedsNotCollections and PaceSimpleIntroduction > into the Closed section. That certainly seems reasonable to me, since > they received opposition and little support. However, the record of > their transition needs to be documented on the mailing list by the > secretary or chairs. I did this based on the following: http://www.imc.org/atom-protocol/mail-archive/msg03545.html And, unless I misinterpreted, both Paul and Tim confirmed via email and/or IM that this was their intent; that being said, having one or both of them making their intentions more explicit on the mailing list wouldn't hurt. - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 30 23:52:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EhgQT-0000ln-6g for atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:52:09 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA17877 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:51:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jB14f5rm000294; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:41:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id jB14f5JV000268; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:41:05 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.205]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id jB14f3mi000240 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:41:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sayrer@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so173585nzf for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:41:03 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=qrTXB6GHGZOcB1uhnm+/CFcUmNOelJQKrFLcgC+AxiR7ZCzC+5AdQxnaG1PnletqSrs7R3/vY5gPqyu8Lcp1n21yKWAJxAMKrErMNltFildJ7zyDDTWjpvYpaYSiF3Hw3tgkebSEQmlJxVk0A3nPpbGXi5pBgC5seiRdW16GHQg= Received: by 10.36.9.18 with SMTP id 18mr1174009nzi; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:41:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.37.12.8 with HTTP; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:41:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <68fba5c50511302041i19490405y457d023180ed293e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:41:03 -0500 From: Robert Sayre To: Sam Ruby Subject: Re: AtomPubIssuesList for 2005/11/30 Cc: Atom Syntax , Atom-Protocol In-Reply-To: <438E7BE1.4010606@intertwingly.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <438E5DCB.20802@intertwingly.net> <68fba5c50511301911k797d312ehd77213fa29d01066@mail.gmail.com> <438E7BE1.4010606@intertwingly.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id jB14f3mi000243 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 11/30/05, Sam Ruby wrote: > Robert Sayre wrote: > > I noticed you moved PaceFeedsNotCollections and PaceSimpleIntroduction > > into the Closed section. > > http://www.imc.org/atom-protocol/mail-archive/msg03545.html > > And, unless I misinterpreted, both Paul and Tim confirmed via email > and/or IM that this was their intent; That message concerned PaceServiceDescription, which has been moved to Recommended For Closure. No argument there. PaceFeedsNotCollections and PaceSimpleIntroduction were moved directly to Closed. Once again, I'm not arguing, just asking that the WG's decision be documented explicitly. -- Robert Sayre "I would have written a shorter letter, but I did not have the time."