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CC: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>, Atom-Protocol <atom-protocol@imc.org>
Subject: Re: AtomPubIssuesList for 2005/11/30
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Robert Sayre wrote:
> On 11/30/05, Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> 
>>Robert Sayre wrote:
>>
>>>I noticed you moved PaceFeedsNotCollections and PaceSimpleIntroduction
>>>into the Closed section.
>>
>>http://www.imc.org/atom-protocol/mail-archive/msg03545.html
>>
>>And, unless I misinterpreted, both Paul and Tim confirmed via email
>>and/or IM that this was their intent;
> 
> 
> That message concerned PaceServiceDescription, which has been moved to
> Recommended For Closure.  No argument there. PaceFeedsNotCollections
> and PaceSimpleIntroduction were moved directly to Closed. Once again,
> I'm not arguing, just asking that the WG's decision be documented
> explicitly.

Both were moved from the 'not yet taken up' to the 'currently under 
discussion' section the last cycle:

http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg17547.html

Re-reading Tim's "Search for Introspection Consensus" and Paul's 
"Tallying the survey", I now have serious doubts that they this covers 
PaceSimpleIntroduction, so I'm moving that back to "revisit".  If it 
turns out that that PaceFeedsNotCollections was not included in what Tim 
was referring to by "introspection via feeds/links", then I'll move this 
one back too.

- Sam Ruby




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On 12/1/05, Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> If it
> turns out that that PaceFeedsNotCollections was not included in what Tim
> was referring to by "introspection via feeds/links", then I'll move this
> one back too.

PaceFeedsNotCollections has nothing to do with introspection.

--

Robert Sayre

"I would have written a shorter letter, but I did not have the time."




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On 12/1/05, Robert Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/1/05, Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> > If it
> > turns out that that PaceFeedsNotCollections was not included in what Tim
> > was referring to by "introspection via feeds/links", then I'll move this
> > one back too.
>
> PaceFeedsNotCollections has nothing to do with introspection.

Actually, neither does PaceSimpleIntroduction. It has a section on
introspection/outliines, but says the editors might have to change the
nouns so it makes sense with whatever format is there. I thought I
would write the whole introduction if I seek to replace it.
Camera-ready copy and all that.

--

Robert Sayre

"I would have written a shorter letter, but I did not have the time."




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Subject: Re: Is there a bug in undefinedAttribute?
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On Sat, 2005-11-26 at 00:53 +0100, A. Pagaltzis wrote:
> Hello group,
>=20
> over in #atom on irc.freenode.net, I was just explaining to John
> Clark that xml:id is not forbidden by the spec, even though it=FFs
> not explicitly allowed. As spec language was examined, we
> discovered the following oddity in the RNC:
>=20
>     undefinedAttribute =3D
>       attribute * - (xml:base | xml:lang | local:*) { text }
>=20
> If I=FFm reading that right, the RNC schema currently validates
> documents with made-up attributes in the Atom namespace. Am I?
> And if so, shouldn=FFt that declaration rather read as follows?
>=20
>     undefinedAttribute =3D
>       attribute * - (xml:base | xml:lang | atom:* | local:*) { text }

Atom uses a null namespace for its own attributes, not the atom
namespace.  This is covered by the "local" prefix.  The current atom.rnc
is correct.  Your suggested change would not be incorrect, but it would
add no value and be confusing (at least until atom ever decided to have
"global" attributes, for some reason).


--=20
Uche Ogbuji                               Fourthought, Inc.
http://uche.ogbuji.net                    http://fourthought.com
http://copia.ogbuji.net                   http://4Suite.org
Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/




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Subject: Re: Atom, files and directories: what it's all about
From: Uche Ogbuji <Uche.Ogbuji@fourthought.com>
To: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
Cc: Luke Arno <luke.arno@gmail.com>, Ernest Prabhakar <prabhaka@apple.com>,
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On Tue, 2005-11-29 at 10:25 +0100, Henry Story wrote:
> On 29 Nov 2005, at 00:31, Luke Arno wrote:
> > On 11/28/05, Ernest Prabhakar <prabhaka@apple.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Henry,
> >>
> >> On Nov 23, 2005, at 3:22 AM, Henry Story wrote:
> >>> A few improvements of atom over directories is that our feed can
> >>> contain not just the current version of an entry, but all previous
> >>> versions as well, which I think I remember was a feature supported
> >>> by the vms file system.
> >>
> >> Interesting.  It reminds me of a thought I had a while ago:  would it
> >> be possible to emulate 80% of WebDAV by using HTTP + Atom?

> I think that is very much the idea. If you check what is going on on  
> the atom protocol group you will find that they are moving in that  
> direction
> 
> http://bitworking.org/projects/atom/

Hmm.  I worry about such a land grab.  I'd rather put muscle behind
WebDAV and be sure that Atom dovetails.  I think that the similarities
should be used to ensure such dovetailing, rather than to seed a
competition between Atom and DAV.

> >> Would we
> >> also need some sort of list structure, a la XOXO?
> >>
> >> http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo
> >>
> >
> > Yup, but Atom Feed _is_ a list format. :-)
> 
> Mhh. An Atom feed is a *Set* of entries. Not a list of entries.
> The entries are not ordered in any particular way in a feed. That is  
> stated in the spec section 4.1.1
> 
> [[
> This specification assigns no significance to the order of atom:entry  
> elements within the feed.
> ]]
> 
> In this sense it is again like the files in a directory. You can sort  
> them different ways using options to the ls command, or if you have a  
> graphical browser by clicking the different columns, but there is no  
> objectively better order than another.

I was going to mention this.  I will say that the available convention I
know of for allowing ordering is the feed rank proposal

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-index-03.txt

But I think it's a bit clumsy to stretch this approach beyond simple
ranking.  Maybe a more general purpose extension for collation algorithm
overlay is in order?

> In html one could perhaps represent them as un unordered list, which  
> is perhaps what the xoxo people intend.

The XOXO people intend both.  <ol> for ordered lists.  <ul> for
unordered lists, just as in Uncle XHTML.


> > You should check out some of the recent introspection
> > discussion that went on over on Atom Pub.

Man.  I just barely convinced myself to muster the non-existent spare
time to follow this list (I've been lurking for a week now).  So many
lists, so little time.


-- 
Uche Ogbuji                               Fourthought, Inc.
http://uche.ogbuji.net                    http://fourthought.com
http://copia.ogbuji.net                   http://4Suite.org
Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/




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I'm not sure if this is something new to version 1.5 or I just didn't notice 
before, but when a web page has multiple rel="alternate" links of different 
feed types, Firefox's autodiscovery feature only shows one of them. What's 
most interesting, though, is that if there's an Atom feed as well as an RSS 
feed, they always choose the Atom feed even if the RSS feed comes first.

For example Microsoft's Team RSS Blog [1] has links that look something like 
this:

<link rel="alternate" type="application/rss+xml"
  title="RSS" href="http://blogs.msdn.com/rssteam/rss.aspx" />
<link rel="alternate" type="application/atom+xml"
  title="ATOM" href="http://blogs.msdn.com/rssteam/atom.aspx" />

Yet if you click on Firefox's subscribe button it automatically subscribes 
you to their (broken) Atom feed despite the RSS feed being listed first.

I understand the argument about only showing one feed when a site supports 
different types because most users wouldn't know how to choose between the 
two. I also understand their choice of Atom above RSS since for the most 
part Atom probably produces better results. Unfortunately there are still 
many cases when it's preferable to choose RSS above Atom.

Not that I'm complaining really. I can still do a view source when I 
absolutely have to use RSS (like say on LiveJournal). I just thought the 
list might find this interesting.

Regards
James

[1] http://blogs.msdn.com/rssteam/




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From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
Subject: Re: Atom, files and directories: what it's all about
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 18:35:43 +0100
To: Uche Ogbuji <Uche.Ogbuji@fourthought.com>
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On 1 Dec 2005, at 17:50, Uche Ogbuji wrote:
> On Tue, 2005-11-29 at 10:25 +0100, Henry Story wrote:
>> On 29 Nov 2005, at 00:31, Luke Arno wrote:
>>> On 11/28/05, Ernest Prabhakar <prabhaka@apple.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Henry,
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 23, 2005, at 3:22 AM, Henry Story wrote:
>>>>> A few improvements of atom over directories is that our feed can
>>>>> contain not just the current version of an entry, but all previous
>>>>> versions as well, which I think I remember was a feature supported
>>>>> by the vms file system.
>>>>
>>>> Interesting.  It reminds me of a thought I had a while ago:   
>>>> would it
>>>> be possible to emulate 80% of WebDAV by using HTTP + Atom?
>
>> I think that is very much the idea. If you check what is going on on
>> the atom protocol group you will find that they are moving in that
>> direction
>>
>> http://bitworking.org/projects/atom/
>
> Hmm.  I worry about such a land grab.  I'd rather put muscle behind
> WebDAV and be sure that Atom dovetails.  I think that the similarities
> should be used to ensure such dovetailing, rather than to seed a
> competition between Atom and DAV.

I don't think this need be thought of as a landgrab.

For one it is probably a consequence of atom trying to do the  
simplest thing possible. When you think about it, a file system or  
directory hierarchy is probably one of the simplest things around. It  
is not surprising that if you think about content and publishing  
content you end up with something that is very very similar to what  
we had before.

Secondly Atom is already finished. It can hardly be claimed that atom  
(and all the RSS formats before it) tried to grab hold of something  
unintentionally. 'Grabbing' involves a conscious act, an intention.  
If you think of Atom as a mathematical structure which in some sense  
it is (if you follow some of the work of the atom-owl group) then you  
are closer to understanding the type of grabbing that is happening  
here. It is just simply that there is a strong isomorphism between  
these two structures [1]. You and me are very similar. We are both  
human. And there is an isomorphism there too. But I never intended to  
grab you :-)

Mentioning WebDav further reinforces the parallel with file systems  
now that I think of it. If you look at the parallel between atom and  
WebDav, and compare this with the parallel between a plain unix file  
system and a metadata enabled one, we have a very illuminating  
parallel. A plain file system is the simplest thing around pretty  
much and as a result it is the most wide spread type of file system.  
Atom and RSS follow a similar pattern. They are much more widely  
available than WebDav implementations. WebDav on the other hand is  
really very similar to the metadata enabled file systems such as the  
one shipped with Apple's Tiger [2]. In WebDav you ask the file  
directly for its properties using PROPGET; in Tiger you do that using  
tools such as xattr.

% xattr --set name John file
% xattr --set color red file

% xattr --list file
file
         color   red
          name   John

So with this paralell in mind

	Simple File System  / Atom
	Metadata File System / WebDav
	
it becomes possible to further see how there is no landgrab happening  
at all. Notice that both normal file systems and metadata file  
systems can coexist quite peacefully. In fact OSX allows you to copy  
a file with metadata to a non metadata enabled file system without  
trouble and without loosing your metadata. Furthermore I imagine it  
would be quite possible to publish atom files to WEBDAV systems.

Certainly it would be interesting to look into these parallels further.


Henry Story

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isomorphism
[2] http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/macosx-10.4.ars/7




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Subject: Re: Atom, files and directories: what it's all about
From: Uche Ogbuji <uche.ogbuji@fourthought.com>
To: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
Cc: Arno Luke <luke.arno@gmail.com>, Ernest Prabhakar <prabhaka@apple.com>,
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On Thu, 2005-12-01 at 18:35 +0100, Henry Story wrote:
> On 1 Dec 2005, at 17:50, Uche Ogbuji wrote:
> > On Tue, 2005-11-29 at 10:25 +0100, Henry Story wrote:
> >> On 29 Nov 2005, at 00:31, Luke Arno wrote:
> >>> On 11/28/05, Ernest Prabhakar <prabhaka@apple.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi Henry,
> >>>>
> >>>> On Nov 23, 2005, at 3:22 AM, Henry Story wrote:
> >>>>> A few improvements of atom over directories is that our feed can
> >>>>> contain not just the current version of an entry, but all previous
> >>>>> versions as well, which I think I remember was a feature supported
> >>>>> by the vms file system.
> >>>>
> >>>> Interesting.  It reminds me of a thought I had a while ago:   
> >>>> would it
> >>>> be possible to emulate 80% of WebDAV by using HTTP + Atom?
> >
> >> I think that is very much the idea. If you check what is going on on
> >> the atom protocol group you will find that they are moving in that
> >> direction
> >>
> >> http://bitworking.org/projects/atom/
> >
> > Hmm.  I worry about such a land grab.  I'd rather put muscle behind
> > WebDAV and be sure that Atom dovetails.  I think that the similarities
> > should be used to ensure such dovetailing, rather than to seed a
> > competition between Atom and DAV.
> 
> I don't think this need be thought of as a landgrab.

It needn't be, of course, but I think your characterization so far gave
the impression that it could be.  Nevertheless, I think I'll leave off
this thread.  After all, it's all vapor so far, and so no real problem.
If people do start coming up with WebDAV-replacement ideas, and
seriously advocating them, I can take up the cause then.  Until then,
it's all academic.

I will say while ducking through the door (sorry) that I don't think the
distinction between "simple file system" and "metadata file system" is
all that instructive, but again I'll have to take up that matter if it
comes up again in a more practical context.


-- 
Uche Ogbuji                               Fourthought, Inc.
http://uche.ogbuji.net                    http://fourthought.com
http://copia.ogbuji.net                   http://4Suite.org
Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/




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* Uche Ogbuji <Uche.Ogbuji@fourthought.com> [2005-12-01 17:55]:
> Your suggested change would not be incorrect, but it would add
> no value and be confusing (at least until atom ever decided to
> have "global" attributes, for some reason).

Confusing, how? Attributes in the Atom namespace are already
forbidden, unless I=E2=80=99m misreading the following:

    6.2 Extensions To the Atom Vocabulary

    The Atom namespace is reserved for future forwards-compatible
    revisions of Atom. Future versions of this specification
    could add new elements and attributes to the Atom markup
    vocabulary. Software written to conform to this version of
    the specification will not be able to process such markup
    correctly and, in fact, will not be able to distinguish it
    from markup error. For the purposes of this discussion,
    unrecognized markup from the Atom vocabulary will be
    considered "foreign markup".

The schema OTOH permits unknown attributes in the Atom namespace
in undefinedAttribute =E2=80=93 whereas it explicitly excludes unknown
elements in simpleExtensionElement, anyForeignElement and
friends.

So if my reading is correct, the (normative) spec disagrees with
the (informal) schema. I=E2=80=99d say that is what=E2=80=99s confusing.

Regards,
--=20
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
Subject: Re: Atom, files and directories: what it's all about
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Thanks Uche for making me think a little more carefully about this  
topic. Your intervention has been very helpful in identifying a  
concern that is probably more widespread than openly acknowledged.

On 1 Dec 2005, at 21:20, Uche Ogbuji wrote:
>>>
>>> Hmm.  I worry about such a land grab.  I'd rather put muscle behind
>>> WebDAV and be sure that Atom dovetails.  I think that the  
>>> similarities
>>> should be used to ensure such dovetailing, rather than to seed a
>>> competition between Atom and DAV.
>>
>> I don't think this need be thought of as a landgrab.
>
> It needn't be, of course, but I think your characterization so far  
> gave
> the impression that it could be.  Nevertheless, I think I'll leave off
> this thread.  After all, it's all vapor so far, and so no real  
> problem.
> If people do start coming up with WebDAV-replacement ideas, and
> seriously advocating them, I can take up the cause then.  Until then,
> it's all academic.

Seeing something as something else is a very important aspect of  
learning. This reminds me of various mathematical puzzles one learns  
in school. It is a long time since I studied geometry but I can  
remember the importance of seeing a shape as the sum of two others.  
Was it by these means that the Greeks prooved the irrationality of  
the square root of 2? [1] I can't remember. But there are many other  
examples along these lines, I am sure. These questions may be  
academic, but one should not disparage academia. It is from those  
quarters that some of the greatest changes in the human condition of  
stemmed from.

> I will say while ducking through the door (sorry) that I don't  
> think the
> distinction between "simple file system" and "metadata file system" is
> all that instructive, but again I'll have to take up that matter if it
> comes up again in a more practical context.

If the only practical effect this discussion may have is help people  
think about feeds a little differently, something will have been  
achieved.

Thanks again for participating,

	Henry Story
	http://bblfish.net/blog/

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrational_numbers#Another_proof




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Subject: Re: Is there a bug in undefinedAttribute?
From: Uche Ogbuji <Uche.Ogbuji@fourthought.com>
To: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
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On Thu, 2005-12-01 at 22:48 +0100, A. Pagaltzis wrote:
> * Uche Ogbuji <Uche.Ogbuji@fourthought.com> [2005-12-01 17:55]:
> > Your suggested change would not be incorrect, but it would add
> > no value and be confusing (at least until atom ever decided to
> > have "global" attributes, for some reason).
>=20
> Confusing, how? Attributes in the Atom namespace are already
> forbidden, unless I=92m misreading the following:
>=20
>     6.2 Extensions To the Atom Vocabulary
>=20
>     The Atom namespace is reserved for future forwards-compatible
>     revisions of Atom. Future versions of this specification
>     could add new elements and attributes to the Atom markup
>     vocabulary. Software written to conform to this version of
>     the specification will not be able to process such markup
>     correctly and, in fact, will not be able to distinguish it
>     from markup error. For the purposes of this discussion,
>     unrecognized markup from the Atom vocabulary will be
>     considered "foreign markup".
>=20
> The schema OTOH permits unknown attributes in the Atom namespace
> in undefinedAttribute =96 whereas it explicitly excludes unknown
> elements in simpleExtensionElement, anyForeignElement and
> friends.
>=20
> So if my reading is correct, the (normative) spec disagrees with
> the (informal) schema. I=92d say that is what=92s confusing.

I didn't fully catch your meaning in the original message.  I think that
was poor reading on reading, not lack of clarity on your part.  Anyway,
the prose does not read to me as if "atom:bogon" should cause validation
failure.  It says that it will be 'considered "foreign markup"'.  That
seems to sensibly fall into the undefinedAttribute bucket.  It's
basically a forwards compatibility hedge.

So I still don't think the RNG should be changed.


--=20
Uche Ogbuji                               Fourthought, Inc.
http://uche.ogbuji.net                    http://fourthought.com
http://copia.ogbuji.net                   http://4Suite.org
Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/




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2005/12/1, A. Pagaltzis <pagaltzis@gmx.de>:
>
> * Uche Ogbuji <Uche.Ogbuji@fourthought.com> [2005-12-01 17:55]:
> > Your suggested change would not be incorrect, but it would add
> > no value and be confusing (at least until atom ever decided to
> > have "global" attributes, for some reason).
>
> Confusing, how? Attributes in the Atom namespace are already
> forbidden, unless I'm misreading the following:
>
>     6.2 Extensions To the Atom Vocabulary
>
>     The Atom namespace is reserved for future forwards-compatible
>     revisions of Atom. Future versions of this specification
>     could add new elements and attributes to the Atom markup
>     vocabulary. Software written to conform to this version of
>     the specification will not be able to process such markup
>     correctly and, in fact, will not be able to distinguish it
>     from markup error. For the purposes of this discussion,
>     unrecognized markup from the Atom vocabulary will be
>     considered "foreign markup".

You are misreading. Re-read the last sentence.

> The schema OTOH permits unknown attributes in the Atom namespace
> in undefinedAttribute =96 whereas it explicitly excludes unknown
> elements in simpleExtensionElement, anyForeignElement and
> friends.

I'd say that anyForeignElement, extensionElement and co. are not
accurate, but correcting them would be a pain (or maybe RelaxNG has
some feature I don't know of): e.g. in atom:entry, extensionElement
should read "any element in non-Atom namespace or any element in Atom
namespace that is not defined as a child of atom:entry by this
specification", and these elements are named "simple extension
element" or "structured extension element" depending on other rules
(not really necessary in the RNC though...) something like:
   entryExtensionElement =3D
      entrySimpleExtensionElement | entryStructuredExtensionElement
   entrySimpleExtensionElement =3D
      element * - (atomAuthor | atomCategory | ...) {
         text
      }
   ...

> So if my reading is correct, the (normative) spec disagrees with
> the (informal) schema. I'd say that is what's confusing.

Your reading was incorrect (w.r.t. my reading ;-) ) but the
(normative) spec effectively disagrees with the (informal) schema.

--
Thomas Broyer




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In the Atom Syndication Format ID, section 4.1.1.1 advises that atom:entry 
elements contain a non-empty atom:title element [1]. But it never goes so 
far as to make this a MUST requirement or SHOULD suggestion.

However, the Atom Syndication Format Introduction at atomenabled.org quite 
specifically says that the title element should not be blank [2]. Is the 
latter a mistake? If so, can it be corrected? There are some people that are 
using this document as a definitive source for the Atom syndication format 
and, in my opinion, incorrectly assuming that title elements should not be 
blank.

Regards
James

[1] 
http://atomenabled.org/developers/syndication/atom-format-spec.php#rfc.section.4.1.1.1
[2] http://atomenabled.org/developers/syndication/#requiredEntryElements




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--NextPart


A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.


        RFC 4287

        Title:      The Atom Syndication Format
        Author(s):  M. Nottingham, Ed., R. Sayre, Ed.
        Status:     Standards Track
        Date:       December 2005
        Mailbox:    mnot@pobox.com, rfsayre@boswijck.com
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        Characters: 81922
        Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso:    None

        I-D Tag:    draft-ietf-atompub-format-11.txt

        URL:        ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc4287.txt


This document specifies Atom, an XML-based Web content and metadata
syndication format.

This document is a product of the Atom Publishing Format and Protocol
Working Group of the IETF.

This is now a Proposed Standard Protocol.

This document specifies an Internet standards track protocol for the
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USC/Information Sciences Institute

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It is now five years since the completion of the NewsML [1] standard and the
International Press Telecommunications Council [3] is hard at work on NewsML 2.
In November 2004 we published the Requirements for NewsML 2 [2] and are now glad
to announce the publication of the first public Working Drafts of:

-  the NewsML 2 Architecture Model [2]

-  the NewsML 2 Architecture Technical Specification [2]

We welcome comments on these documents and will study them carefully though we
do not have the resources to provide feedback on each comment received.

The Working Drafts contain a number of features, issues and questions closely
related to the work of the Atom WG.  These include the representation of
alternative content in news items, the representation of ordered, unordered and
alternative collection of news items, the standardization of news-related
metadata, and many other hot subjects.  

We welcome comments on these and other issues.

To submit and/or discuss general comments, please use the NewsML 2 mailing list:
   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newsml-2/
To minimise spam, we require that people wishing to send messages join the list.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] http://www.newsml.org/ 
[2] http://www.iptc.org/dev/ 
[3] http://www.iptc.org/ 

Laurent Le Meur
IPTC, News Architecture WP chair
AFP, Medialab manager



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From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Dec 06 12:44:24 2005
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There has been a surprisingly small number of posts about these 
Paces. Or milestone is drifting into the barely-seeable past. More 
comments on the Paces, sooner rather than later, would be appreciated.

--Paul Hoffman, Director
--Internet Mail Consortium




From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Dec 09 00:56:01 2005
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The feedvalidator currently considers it an error to have a feed with 
zero entry elements which doesn't have an author element at the feed 
level. Am I missing something, or is that wrong?

4.1.1 says

    o  atom:feed elements MUST contain one or more atom:author elements,
       unless all of the atom:feed element's child atom:entry elements
       contain at least one atom:author element.

without mentioning the "all none of the zero atom:entry elements" case, 
and 4.2.1 says

    If an atom:entry element does not contain atom:author elements, then
    the atom:author elements of the contained atom:source element are
    considered to apply.  In an Atom Feed Document, the atom:author
    elements of the containing atom:feed element are considered to apply
    to the entry if there are no atom:author elements in the locations
    described above.

without saying anything about how atom:author at the entry level might 
apply to a feed. Since in the case of atom:author coming from 
atom:source, it doesn't (the author of a republished entry certainly 
isn't the author of the feed metadata), I'd claim that an empty feed 
shouldn't be required to have an author, since it's only needed for 
inheritance down to an entry.

Phil Ringnalda




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FYI: this is a very rough first draft.  The updated second draft is 
already in the queue waiting to be published.

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-link-extensions-00.txt

It introduces a number of extensions including the link grouping and 
alternates (mirrors) stuff.

Still a work in progress.

- James




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I've updated the various extension drafts to point to RFC4287.

The feed thread draft is a major update that includes a simplification 
of the in-reply-to element.

   <in-reply-to
     id="tag:example.org,2005:some-unique-id"
     href="http://example.com/some-location" />

I'm moving the feed rank draft the "stable" status.. meaning that 
changes are unlikely between now and when I submit the draft as a 
standards-track RFC (which will be after APP is complete).

There is a new draft that defines a "transitional atom" format.  The 
t-atom format is usable during the production lifecycle of Atom entries; 
as such certain requirements from core Atom are relaxed (e.g. atom:id is 
optional, etc).

Works in progress:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-link-extensions-00.txt
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-transitional-atom-00.txt

Last call:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-03.txt

Stable:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-index-04.txt
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-license-04.txt
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-expires-06.txt
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-nofollow-04.txt

As always, comments are welcome and desired.

- James




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James M Snell wrote:
> The feed thread draft is a major update that includes a simplification of 
> the in-reply-to element.
>
>   <in-reply-to
>     id="tag:example.org,2005:some-unique-id"
>     href="http://example.com/some-location" />

I really like what you've done with this. I have a couple of questions 
though.

What is the type of the resource pointed to by the in-reply-to href? It 
seems to me it can't be an Atom feed since that isn't really a 
representation of the resource being responded to (although that would 
probably be most useful here). An Atom entry document? An HTML web page? 
What would you expect a client application to do with this value? A link to 
the source feed I could see myself using (in combination with the id 
obviously), but I'm not sure about the other two.

Second question: what is the reason for recommending a related link when the 
href points to something external? It seems to me an unnecessary duplication 
of information but I may be missing something. And once again what would you 
expect the client to do with it? A HTML page could be provided to the user 
as a clickable link, but an Atom feed? An Atom entry document? Obviously the 
answer to this depends on the type of the href, which brings us back to 
initial question.

Regards
James




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Subject: Re: Feed thread draft
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James Holderness wrote:
> 
> James M Snell wrote:
>> The feed thread draft is a major update that includes a simplification 
>> of the in-reply-to element.
>>
>>   <in-reply-to
>>     id="tag:example.org,2005:some-unique-id"
>>     href="http://example.com/some-location" />
> 
> I really like what you've done with this. I have a couple of questions 
> though.
> 
> What is the type of the resource pointed to by the in-reply-to href? It 

It's whatever type the server says it is when you GET it (Content-Type 
header).

> seems to me it can't be an Atom feed since that isn't really a 
> representation of the resource being responded to (although that would 
> probably be most useful here). An Atom entry document? An HTML web page? 
> What would you expect a client application to do with this value? A link 
> to the source feed I could see myself using (in combination with the id 
> obviously), but I'm not sure about the other two.

Most likely it will end up being the source feed.  The idea was to leave 
this un(der)specified for now and let implementors figure out what works 
best.

> 
> Second question: what is the reason for recommending a related link when 
> the href points to something external? It seems to me an unnecessary 
> duplication of information but I may be missing something. And once 
> again what would you expect the client to do with it? A HTML page could 
> be provided to the user as a clickable link, but an Atom feed? An Atom 
> entry document? Obviously the answer to this depends on the type of the 
> href, which brings us back to initial question.
> 

The related link allows clients that are not familiar with the Feed 
Thread extension to at least be able to indicate that there is some kind 
of relationship between the two resources.

- James




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* James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> [2005-12-09 22:45]:
> Last call:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-03.txt

I like this. Simple and to the point, no longer desperately
generic, but still open enough to accomodate the non-Atom world.

+1

Regards,
-- 
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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James M Snell wrote:
>> What is the type of the resource pointed to by the in-reply-to href? It
>
> It's whatever type the server says it is when you GET it (Content-Type 
> header).

Well ideally you wouldn't want to GET or HEAD every href in order to 
determine its type. I'm not positive this is a problem, but it may be 
depending on what a client may want to do with this extension.

> The related link allows clients that are not familiar with the Feed Thread 
> extension to at least be able to indicate that there is some kind of 
> relationship between the two resources.

Imagine that a client doesn't know anything about this extension. What do 
you think such a client would typically do with related links? I don't know 
about anyone else, but what I do is display them in a "see also" list that 
the user can launch in a browser window. This works very well when the links 
are to web pages or other resources that can be handled usefully by a 
browser, but it's a complete waste of time if the link is pointing to an 
Atom feed. Most of the time the user will just get a page of meaningless 
XML - at best they'll get the option to subscribe to a feed that they're 
quite likely already subscribed to.

But that's just how I handle links. Maybe there's a better way. Can you 
imagine some other way in which clients might handle related links (without 
knowing anything about this extension) that would be able to do something 
useful with a link that pointed to an Atom feed - specifically the Atom feed 
that the current message is replying to?

Now if the in-reply-to href was pointing to a web page I could understand 
recommending a related link that pointed there too. So maybe you could limit 
the recommendation like that. Or otherwise just leave out the recommendation 
altogether and let the feed producer decide whether a related link is a good 
idea or not. Related links are already part of the Atom spec - there's 
nothing stopping a feed producer using them - but I'm not sure they should 
be encouraged to do so with links which may not be at all appropriate.

Regards
James




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Subject: Re: Author of an empty feed?
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Phil Ringnalda wrote:
> isn't the author of the feed metadata), I'd claim that an empty feed 
> shouldn't be required to have an author, since it's only needed for 
> inheritance down to an entry.

I agree completely. IMHO some of these "MUST contain" requirements would be 
far more appropriate as editorial suggestions rather than protocol 
requirements. When there's any room for interpretation I'm all for leaving 
them out rather than forcing them to be included unnecessarily. Otherwise 
the feed producer just ends up fabricating random data whose only purpose is 
to meet a spec requirement but otherwise benefits nobody.

Regards
James




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From: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de>
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Subject: Re: Feed thread draft
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* James Holderness <j4_james@hotmail.com> [2005-12-11 03:55]:
> What do you think such a client would typically do with related
> links? I don't know about anyone else, but what I do is display
> them in a "see also" list that the user can launch in a browser
> window. This works very well when the links are to web pages or
> other resources that can be handled usefully by a browser, but
> it's a complete waste of time if the link is pointing to an
> Atom feed.

You do that even if it=E2=80=99s

    <link rel=3D"related" type=3D"application/atom+xml" href=3D"..." />

?

> Maybe there's a better way. Can you imagine some other way in
> which clients might handle related links (without knowing
> anything about this extension) that would be able to do
> something useful with a link that pointed to an Atom feed -
> specifically the Atom feed that the current message is replying
> to?

Minimally, it can pull the feed and look for its alternate link.
Less minimally it can also look at all the other metadata that
Atom documents can contain.

We=E2=80=99re talking about an Atom consumer here; that it wouldn=E2=80=99=
t be
able to do something sensible with Atom docs strikes me as an odd
objection.

Regards,
--=20
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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A. Pagaltzis wrote:
>> window. This works very well when the links are to web pages or
>> other resources that can be handled usefully by a browser, but
>> it's a complete waste of time if the link is pointing to an
>> Atom feed.
>
> You do that even if it=E2=80=99s
>
>    <link rel=3D"related" type=3D"application/atom+xml" href=3D"..." />

Ideally if I know the type I can try to subscribe immediately without goi=
ng=20
through the browser which is likely to fail. My assumption (at least up t=
o=20
now) was that if a feed producer was adding a related link to another Ato=
m=20
feed it was because that feed really was a relevant, related link. Howeve=
r=20
this extension is encouraging the feed producer to include related links=20
that I don't think are very useful to the user and that they wouldn't=20
usually include.

It makes perfect sense when you think about it theoretically. Those=20
documents are technically related. But when you think about the practical=
=20
implications, how the client needs to deal with it, how it affects the en=
d=20
user, I don't think it's a good idea.

> Minimally, it can pull the feed and look for its alternate link.
> Less minimally it can also look at all the other metadata that
> Atom documents can contain.
>
> We=E2=80=99re talking about an Atom consumer here; that it wouldn=E2=80=
=99t be
> able to do something sensible with Atom docs strikes me as an odd
> objection.

That's possible, but definately not something I would consider doing. Rig=
ht=20
now when a user clicks on a link I can pass that link directly to a brows=
er.=20
You're suggesting I should check the link type (possibly by doing a HEAD)=
=20
and then if it's an Atom document I download the document myself, parse o=
ut=20
an alternate link and then pass that on to the browser. I'd prefer someth=
ing=20
a little more efficient than that for a simple link click.

But I guess that is a possible alternative. Do you know of any client=20
implementations that do that sort of thing?

Regards
James




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From: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de>
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Subject: Re: Feed thread draft
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* James Holderness <j4_james@hotmail.com> [2005-12-11 12:30]:
> Those documents are technically related. But when you think
> about the practical implications, how the client needs to deal
> with it, how it affects the end user, I don't think it's a good
> idea.

Well, the idea for this, if I remember right, was actually mine;
and was based mainly on the thought you=E2=80=99re calling =E2=80=9Ctechn=
ically.=E2=80=9D
The idea was to give threading-unaware clients a chance to do
something useful.

Based on your argument I would agree that it would be best if the
related link pointed to the permalink of the entry being replied
to, rather than the feed. In fact that is a very good idea in any
case.

But in that case you run into the problem that there is no clear
way to associate the atom:link[@rel=3D'related'] to a particular
permalink with its thr:in-reply-to pointer, ie. the information
is imprecise and  threading-aware clients have to guess.

A complication here is that we found in previous discussion that
nesting makes things more complex; ideally, therefore, any
approach would only add direct child elements to the atom:entry
element.

Given this constraint, do you have a better idea how do address
the following concerns?

=E2=80=A2 Threading-unaware clients should get at least some information
  that allows the user to notice that there=E2=80=99s more to the entry,
  even if the user agent remains blissfully unaware of the thread
  as such.
 =20
=E2=80=A2 The available information precise enough that threading-aware
  can correlate all the related bits without guessing.

The existing draft avoids problems with #2 by simply duplicating
URIs, so it=E2=80=99s always obvious which related links and which
threading elements belong together. If the URIs diverge, you need
some other mechanism of crossreferencing from one to the other.

> Do you know of any client implementations that do that sort of
> thing?

Honestly, I haven=E2=80=99t seen any yet that do anything interesting at
all with extra links (be they related, via, or something else)=E2=80=A6
(Which rather irks me.)

Regards,
--=20
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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Subject: Re: Feed thread draft
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A. Pagaltzis wrote:
> Given this constraint, do you have a better idea how do address
> the following concerns?
>
> =E2=80=A2 Threading-unaware clients should get at least some informatio=
n
>  that allows the user to notice that there=E2=80=99s more to the entry,
>  even if the user agent remains blissfully unaware of the thread
>  as such.

I think a "related" link that points to the permalink of the original=20
message is a good start.

> =E2=80=A2 The available information precise enough that threading-aware
>  can correlate all the related bits without guessing.

What about something like this:

<th:in-reply-to>
  <id>tag:www.example.org:2005:entry1</id>
  <link rel=3D"feed" type=3D"application/atom+xml"=20
href=3D"http://www.example.org/feed.atom"/>
  <link rel=3D"related" type=3D"text/html"=20
href=3D"http:www.example.org/entry1.html"/>
</th:in-reply-to>

No doubt there are issues with the syntax, but the important concept is t=
he=20
idea of having two clearly defined links: one being the permalink for the=
=20
entry being replied to and the other being the atom feed in which that en=
try=20
can be found. It could be made more flexible by allowing further "alterna=
te"=20
links, but I'm not sure that's necessary.

> Honestly, I haven=E2=80=99t seen any yet that do anything interesting a=
t
> all with extra links (be they related, via, or something else)=E2=80=A6
> (Which rather irks me.)

Me neither. I can't say I'm exactly doing anything interesting with links=
,=20
but I am at least doing something with them.

Regards
James




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Subject: Re: Feed thread draft
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* James Holderness <j4_james@hotmail.com> [2005-12-13 03:55]:
> What about something like this:
>=20
> <th:in-reply-to>
>  <id>tag:www.example.org:2005:entry1</id>
>  <link rel=3D"feed" type=3D"application/atom+xml"=20
> href=3D"http://www.example.org/feed.atom"/>
>  <link rel=3D"related" type=3D"text/html"=20
> href=3D"http:www.example.org/entry1.html"/>
> </th:in-reply-to>
>=20
> No doubt there are issues with the syntax,

The biggest issue being that a threading-unaware client won=E2=80=99t
know to go looking inside thr:in-reply-to to find links. This
syntax will only satisfy the =E2=80=9Callow threading-unaware clients to
do something useful=E2=80=9D constraint if you duplicate the links at the
atom:entry level.

> but the important concept is the idea of having two clearly
> defined links: one being the permalink for the entry being
> replied to and the other being the atom feed in which that
> entry can be found. It could be made more flexible by allowing
> further "alternate" links, but I'm not sure that's necessary.

If the extensibility afforded by child elements is not a useful
goal (and in this case, I think it isn=E2=80=99t; is there more
information that is going to be needed than the source feed and
permalink?), that could be handled cleanly by just adding an
@alternate attribute to thr:in-reply-to to record the permalink.

atom:link elements can then simply be added to the atom:entry.
This keeps things nicely flat and simple.

I am not sure that the semantics of adding atom:link[@rel=3D'feed']
to atom:entry are particularly clean; but we might just decide
that it isn=E2=80=99t a great loss if threading-unaware clients miss the
feed link. Or else we=E2=80=99d need to pick a better name for the
relation.

So the changes would be:
=E2=80=A2 Rename @href to @source.
=E2=80=A2 Repurpose @href to contain the alternate link.
=E2=80=A2 Change the recommendation to include an
  atom:link[@rel=3D'related'] to point to the alternate link
  instead of the feed.

Regards,
--=20
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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Subject: Re: Feed thread draft
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A. Pagaltzis wrote:
> The biggest issue being that a threading-unaware client won=E2=80=99t
> know to go looking inside thr:in-reply-to to find links. This
> syntax will only satisfy the =E2=80=9Callow threading-unaware clients t=
o
> do something useful=E2=80=9D constraint if you duplicate the links at t=
he
> atom:entry level.

That's what I meant when I said: "I think a "related" link that points to=
=20
the permalink of the original message is a good start."

I really don't think a threading-unaware client needs to know the URI of =
the=20
Atom feed that contained the message.

> If the extensibility afforded by child elements is not a useful
> goal (and in this case, I think it isn=E2=80=99t; is there more
> information that is going to be needed than the source feed and
> permalink?), that could be handled cleanly by just adding an
> @alternate attribute to thr:in-reply-to to record the permalink.

I don't have a problem with that. I was just playing with ideas for the=20
syntax.

> I am not sure that the semantics of adding atom:link[@rel=3D'feed']
> to atom:entry are particularly clean; but we might just decide
> that it isn=E2=80=99t a great loss if threading-unaware clients miss th=
e
> feed link.

I wouldn't suggest trying to add it to the entry at all. I don't think it=
's=20
a useful piece of information to a threading-unaware client even if it wa=
s=20
in a format that would be recognised.

> So the changes would be:
> =E2=80=A2 Rename @href to @source.
> =E2=80=A2 Repurpose @href to contain the alternate link.
> =E2=80=A2 Change the recommendation to include an
>  atom:link[@rel=3D'related'] to point to the alternate link
>  instead of the feed.

Sounds good to me.

Regards
James




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James M Snell wrote:

>
> I've updated the various extension drafts to point to RFC4287.
>
> The feed thread draft is a major update that includes a simplification 
> of the in-reply-to element.
>
>   <in-reply-to
>     id="tag:example.org,2005:some-unique-id"
>     href="http://example.com/some-location" />
>
> I'm moving the feed rank draft the "stable" status.. meaning that 
> changes are unlikely between now and when I submit the draft as a 
> standards-track RFC (which will be after APP is complete).
>
> There is a new draft that defines a "transitional atom" format.  The 
> t-atom format is usable during the production lifecycle of Atom 
> entries; as such certain requirements from core Atom are relaxed (e.g. 
> atom:id is optional, etc).
>
> Works in progress:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-link-extensions-00.txt 
>
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-transitional-atom-00.txt 
>
>
> Last call:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-03.txt


In this draft I noticed:

<thr:in-reply-to
           id="tag:entries.com,2005:1" href="#"/>


as an entry that is a "reply-to" for another entry in the same feed.

Why wouldn't we just have:

<thr:in-reply-to id="tag:entries.com,2005:1"/>


and make the 'href' attribute implied to be the current feed?

It just feels much more simply to omit the href.  Certainly, a value of 
'#' should
affect the threading in the same way.

--Alex Milowski




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Alex Milowski wrote:
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-03.txt 
>>
> 
> In this draft I noticed:
> 
> <thr:in-reply-to
>           id="tag:entries.com,2005:1" href="#"/>
> 
> as an entry that is a "reply-to" for another entry in the same feed.
> 
> Why wouldn't we just have:
> 
> <thr:in-reply-to id="tag:entries.com,2005:1"/>
> 
> and make the 'href' attribute implied to be the current feed?
> 

Yep, you could do that. href="#" just makes it more explicit.

- James




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From: Alan Gutierrez <alan@engrm.com>
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Subject: RSS 2.0 to Atom 1.0
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I'm creating an XSLT transform to convert from RSS 2.0 to Atom 1.0.

The mappings posted here are quite helpful...

http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/Rss20AndAtom10Compared

I'm not sure who to convert the "comments" element, however.

One of the feeds has a wfw:commnetRSS element, that I am going to
leave as it in the atom:entry. Is that the way it's done? Or has
atom defined new elements, variants of "atom:link" I suppose, for
comments.

This may be related to the threading thread, I'm not sure.

--
Alan Gutierrez - alan@engrm.com - http://engrm.com/blogometer/




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For commentsRSS, you could convert to:

<link rel="replies" type="application/rss+xml" href="{url}" />

The one caveat is that the "replies" link rel has not yet been 
registered in the IANA link registry.

- James

Alan Gutierrez wrote:
> I'm creating an XSLT transform to convert from RSS 2.0 to Atom 1.0.
> 
> The mappings posted here are quite helpful...
> 
> http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/Rss20AndAtom10Compared
> 
> I'm not sure who to convert the "comments" element, however.
> 
> One of the feeds has a wfw:commnetRSS element, that I am going to
> leave as it in the atom:entry. Is that the way it's done? Or has
> atom defined new elements, variants of "atom:link" I suppose, for
> comments.
> 
> This may be related to the threading thread, I'm not sure.
> 
> --
> Alan Gutierrez - alan@engrm.com - http://engrm.com/blogometer/
> 
> 




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* James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> [2005-12-14 12:57]:
> For commentsRSS, you could convert to:
> 
> <link rel="replies" type="application/rss+xml" href="{url}" />
> 
> The one caveat is that the "replies" link rel has not yet been 
> registered in the IANA link registry.

Thank you James.

IANA doesn't seem to list application/rss+xml either. Since I'm
the initial consumer of my converted feed, I suppose I can trust the
mime type I assign.

Cheers.

--
Alan Gutierrez - alan@engrm.com - http://engrm.com/blogometer/




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Alan Gutierrez wrote:
>> For commentsRSS, you could convert to:
>>
>> <link rel="replies" type="application/rss+xml" href="{url}" />
>>
>> The one caveat is that the "replies" link rel has not yet been
>> registered in the IANA link registry.
>
> Thank you James.
>
> IANA doesn't seem to list application/rss+xml either. Since I'm
> the initial consumer of my converted feed, I suppose I can trust the
> mime type I assign.

If the feed pointed to by the "replies" link has also been converted into 
Atom, then that type should actually be "application/atom+xml". If not, 
you're going to have to make do with "application/rss+xml". It's about as 
official a type as you can get for an RSS feed, but it's not registered 
because it can't be registered.

Regards
James




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* James Holderness <j4_james@hotmail.com> [2005-12-14 18:54]:
> 
> Alan Gutierrez wrote:
> >>For commentsRSS, you could convert to:
> >>
> >><link rel="replies" type="application/rss+xml" href="{url}" />
> >>
> >>The one caveat is that the "replies" link rel has not yet been
> >>registered in the IANA link registry.
> >
> >Thank you James.
> >
> >IANA doesn't seem to list application/rss+xml either. Since I'm
> >the initial consumer of my converted feed, I suppose I can trust the
> >mime type I assign.
> 
> If the feed pointed to by the "replies" link has also been converted into 
> Atom, then that type should actually be "application/atom+xml". If not, 
> you're going to have to make do with "application/rss+xml". It's about as 
> official a type as you can get for an RSS feed, but it's not registered 
> because it can't be registered.

Okay, I'm curious.

With no stake in the answer, mind you, why can it not be registered?

--
Alan Gutierrez - alan@engrm.com - http://engrm.com/blogometer/




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From: Alan Gutierrez <alan@engrm.com>
To: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Tag URIs
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I'm to understand that Atom has adopted the Tag URI as a a perferred
GUID for an Atom 1.0 feed. I've begun to use the Tag URI in my work.

Eventually, I found myself  parsing the Tag URI in Java, and I've
begun to wonder why the Tag URI scheme did not follow the pattern of
a hierarchical URI. It is instead an opaque URI.

This means that the nifty parser built into the Java URI class only
extracts a scheme, scheme specific part, and fragment.

tag:agtrz,com:payload#fragment

Had Tag URI been specified as a heirarical, the parser would be able
to extract more payload from the URI.

tag://agtrz.com,2005/path?query#fragment

Same parser, more to play with.

I've asked the authors of the RFC, but apparently, I was unable to
convey my concerns about this.

--
Alan Gutierrez - alan@engrm.com - http://engrm.com/blogometer/




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Alan Gutierrez wrote:
>> you're going to have to make do with "application/rss+xml". It's about as
>> official a type as you can get for an RSS feed, but it's not registered
>> because it can't be registered.
>
> Okay, I'm curious.
>
> With no stake in the answer, mind you, why can it not be registered?

From what I could make out, it couldn't be registered because it didn't have 
a real specification and those controlling the format had no interest in 
producing a real specification. If you do a bit of googling you should be 
able to find more on the subject. One good starting point is here:

http://www.kbcafe.com/rss/?guid=20041120071518

Regards
James




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From: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de>
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Subject: Re: Tag URIs
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* Alan Gutierrez <alan@engrm.com> [2005-12-18 06:10]:
> I'm to understand that Atom has adopted the Tag URI as a a
> perferred GUID for an Atom 1.0 feed. I've begun to use the Tag
> URI in my work.

Tag URIs were advertised in Atom 0.3 days, but I don=E2=80=99t know that
they=E2=80=99re currently suggested practice.

Tim Bray has convincingly argued on more than one occasion that
you should use HTTP URIs.

RFC 4287[1] does not mention any scheme at all in normative
language, and the informal examples in it use UUID URIs. (That=E2=80=99s
what I use these days for my feeds.)

> Eventually, I found myself parsing the Tag URI in Java, and
> I've begun to wonder why the Tag URI scheme did not follow the
> pattern of a hierarchical URI. It is instead an opaque URI.

You=E2=80=99re not supposed to even want to parse IDs. You=E2=80=99re sup=
posed to
use identifiers as opaque tokens that do not convey any meaning
whatsoever, other than to uniquely identify an entry.

> Had Tag URI been specified as a heirarical, the parser would be
> able to extract more payload from the URI.

What for? All you use IDs for is to compare them to each other,
and nothing else.


[1] Damn, it feels good to be able to say that.


Regards,
--=20
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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* A. Pagaltzis <pagaltzis@gmx.de> [2005-12-18 06:49]:
> RFC 4287[1] does not mention any scheme at all in normative
> language, and the informal examples in it use UUID URIs.

Ah. I see the long example does use tag URIs, while the short one
uses UUID URIs. Mea culpa.

Regards,
-- 
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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FWIW, "real specification" == internet draft / standards track rfc / etc

James Holderness wrote:
> 
> Alan Gutierrez wrote:
>>> you're going to have to make do with "application/rss+xml". It's 
>>> about as
>>> official a type as you can get for an RSS feed, but it's not registered
>>> because it can't be registered.
>>
>> Okay, I'm curious.
>>
>> With no stake in the answer, mind you, why can it not be registered?
> 
>> From what I could make out, it couldn't be registered because it 
>> didn't have 
> a real specification and those controlling the format had no interest in 
> producing a real specification. If you do a bit of googling you should 
> be able to find more on the subject. One good starting point is here:
> 
> http://www.kbcafe.com/rss/?guid=20041120071518
> 
> Regards
> James
> 
> 




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On Sun, Dec 18, 2005 at 12:01:39AM -0500,
 Alan Gutierrez <alan@engrm.com> wrote 
 a message of 25 lines which said:

> I'm to understand that Atom has adopted the Tag URI as a a perferred
> GUID for an Atom 1.0 feed. I've begun to use the Tag URI in my work.

RFC 4151 (on tag URIs) is not even mentioned by RFC 4287. (Although
one example use these URI.)

> It is instead an opaque URI.

It seems perfectly normal: the tag URI has a structure only for the
purpose of *creating* an unique identifier. For *reading* it, it
should be regarded as opaque. It is not even resolvable (and does not
pretend to be).
 
> Had Tag URI been specified as a heirarical, the parser would be able
> to extract more payload from the URI.

To do what?




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Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 17:03:16 -0800
From: Tim Bray <Tim.Bray@Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: Tag URIs
In-reply-to: <20051218050138.GA17568@maribor.izzy.net>
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On Dec 17, 2005, at 9:01 PM, Alan Gutierrez wrote:

>
> I'm to understand that Atom has adopted the Tag URI as a a perferred.
> GUID for an Atom 1.0 feed.

It has not.  There is no preferred scheme. -Tim




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From: "Laurent Le Meur" <laurent.lemeur@afp.com>
To: "'Atom Syntax'" <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: info: newsml-2 ready for test
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 18:16:37 +0100
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------=_NextPart_000_02DF_01C604C8.5A093140
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FYI, copied from the NSS-discuss list.=20

Note: as we won=92t spam the Atom list with more information on NewsML2, =
if you
are interested in this work, please join =
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newsml-2/
.=20

llm

=20

  _____ =20

De : Laurent Le Meur [mailto:laurent.lemeur@afp.com]=20
Envoy=E9 : lundi 19 d=E9cembre 2005 18:12
=C0 : 'nss-discuss@yahoogroups.com'
Objet : newsml-2 ready for test

=20

The IPTC NewsML2 Architecture WP is very happy to announce that the
<http://www.iptc.org/dev> www.iptc.org/dev site has been updated.

=20

Here you will find:

-          a document introducing the current experimental phase (new!). =
The
first part target IT management, and the second part targets =
implementers.

-          an updated NAR Model draft document (v12)

-          an updated Technical Specification draft document (v18)

-          a Glossary document (new!, v1)

-          a set of W3C XML schemas (new!, XSD format, v0.6)

-          a NewsML2 -> RDF N-triples XSLT transform (new!, v1)

=20

All these resources are provided in order to help users test NewsML2 in =
its
draft form.

=20

It is now time for experimentation. Tests and feed-back on the current
documentation and schemata would be highly appreciated from the news =
community.

Note: in order to access the XSD schema and contributions, you need to
<http://iptc.org/pdl.php?fn=3DIPTC-NAR-EP1Packg_1.zip> download this =
package.=20

After download, please drop the file in a =93root=94 directory and unzip =
it: this
will create a directory tree, with =93IPTC=94 at the top.=20

=20

The =93IPTC/NAR/1.0=94 subfolder contains itself 4 folders:

-          =93specification=94 contains the Model, the TechSpec, the set =
of XML
schemas and test samples (used to check the schema; better samples will =
come
soon).

-          =93documentation=94 contains the Glossary plus the =
introduction to the
current experimental phase.=20

-          =93contribution=94 contains the NewsML2 -> RDF N-triples XSLT =
transform.

-          =93examples=94: we will provide samples asap.

=20

We hope that you will find it useful.

=20

Laurent Le Meur

IPTC NewsML Architecture WP chair

AFP Medialab, manager

=20


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>FYI, copied from =
the
NSS-discuss list. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Note: as we =
won&#8217;t
spam the Atom list with more information on NewsML2, if you are =
interested in
this work, please join <a =
href=3D"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newsml-2/">http://groups.yahoo.com/=
group/newsml-2/</a>
. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>llm<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>De&nbsp;:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
Laurent Le Meur
[mailto:laurent.lemeur@afp.com] <br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</span></b> lundi 19 =
d=E9cembre
2005 18:12<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>=C0&nbsp;:</span></b>
'nss-discuss@yahoogroups.com'<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Objet&nbsp;:</span></b> newsml-2 =
ready for
test</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The IPTC NewsML2
Architecture WP is very happy to announce that the </span></font><font =
size=3D2
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><a href=3D"http://www.iptc.org/dev"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>www.iptc.org/dev</span></a>
</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>site has been =
updated.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Here you will =
find:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<font =
size=3D1
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>a document introducing the current experimental phase =
(</span></font><b><font
size=3D2 color=3D"#993300" face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:#993300;font-weight:bold'>new!</span></font></b><=
font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'>). The first part target IT management, =
and the
second part targets implementers.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<font =
size=3D1
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>an updated NAR Model draft document =
(v12)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<font =
size=3D1
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>an updated Technical Specification draft document =
(v18)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<font =
size=3D1
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>a Glossary document (</span></font><b><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#993300"
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:#993300;font-weight:bold'>new!</span></font></b><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>, v1)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<font =
size=3D1
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>a set of W3C XML schemas (</span></font><b><font size=3D2
color=3D"#993300" face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:#993300;font-weight:bold'>new!</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>, XSD format, v0.6)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<font =
size=3D1
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>a NewsML2 -&gt; RDF N-triples XSLT transform =
(</span></font><b><font
size=3D2 color=3D"#993300" face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:#993300;font-weight:bold'>new!</span></font></b><=
font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'>, v1)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>All these =
resources are
provided in order to help users test NewsML2 in its draft =
form.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>It is now time =
for
experimentation. Tests and feed-back on the current documentation and =
schemata
would be highly appreciated from the news =
community.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Note: <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>in order
to access the XSD schema and contributions</span></b>, you need to =
</span></font><b><font
size=3D2 color=3D"#993300" face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.5pt;font-family:
Verdana;color:#993300;font-weight:bold'><a
href=3D"http://iptc.org/pdl.php?fn=3DIPTC-NAR-EP1Packg_1.zip"><font =
color=3D"#993300"><span
lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:#993300;text-decoration:none'>download this =
package</span></font></a></span></font></b><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:9.5pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:black'>. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>After download, =
please
drop the file in a &#8220;root&#8221; directory and unzip it: this will =
create
a directory tree, with &#8220;IPTC&#8221; at the top. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold'>=
The
&#8220;IPTC/NAR/1.0&#8221; subfolder </span></font></b><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>contains itself 4 folders:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<font =
size=3D1
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>&#8220;specification&#8221; contains the Model, the =
TechSpec, the
set of XML schemas and test samples (used to check the schema; better =
samples
will come soon).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<font =
size=3D1
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>&#8220;documentation&#8221; contains the Glossary plus the
introduction to the current experimental phase. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<font =
size=3D1
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>&#8220;contribution&#8221; contains the NewsML2 -&gt; RDF =
N-triples
XSLT transform.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<font =
size=3D1
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>&#8220;examples&#8221;: we will provide samples =
asap.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>We hope that you =
will
find it useful.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Laurent Le =
Meur<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>IPTC NewsML Architecture WP =
chair<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>AFP Medialab, =
manager<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

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Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 15:53:50 +1100
From: Michael Stillwell <mjs@beebo.org>
Reply-To: Michael Stillwell <mjs@beebo.org>
To: Syntax Atom <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: examples of merged feeds/feed aggregation?
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Can someone point me to some examples of merged feeds, or any
discussion of same?

I'm thinking of a situation where you have a.xml and b.xml and they
are merged into merge.xml, from which a.xml and b.xml are individually
recoverable.  (Or almost so.)

Is the <link rel="via" href="a.xml"> element the right way to do this?

(To motivate this question, a use-case would be where you wanted to
present someone's del.icio.us and flickr.com feeds as a single feed.)




--M.

--
http://beebo.org
+44 78 2118 9049




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* Michael Stillwell <mjs@beebo.org> [2005-12-21 06:05]:
> I'm thinking of a situation where you have a.xml and b.xml and
> they are merged into merge.xml, from which a.xml and b.xml are
> individually recoverable.  (Or almost so.)
>=20
> Is the <link rel=3D"via" href=3D"a.xml"> element the right way to
> do this?

No, that is for citing sources in an entry.

For merging feeds, you put the originating feed=E2=80=99s metadata in an
atom:source element inside the atom:entry.

You could take a look at the combined =E2=80=9Cuse Perl=E2=80=9D journals=
 feed I
provide:

    http://plasmasturm.org/feeds/planet-useperl/

I only copy as much metadata as is required to identify the
source feed there.

Regards,
--=20
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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On 21/12/05 3:53 PM, "Michael Stillwell" <mjs@beebo.org> wrote:

> Is the <link rel="via" href="a.xml"> element the right way to do this?

the atom:source element is the right way.

e.




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Sorry again to take so long to respond. I have been a little too busy  
to respond recently.

On 4 Dec 2005, at 16:42, Simon Phipps wrote:
> On Dec 4, 2005, at 14:33, Henry Story wrote:
>
>> I have written my first blog entry in French [1] which has made me  
>> aware that
>> it would be very useful to add language information to the atom  
>> file generated by
>> BlogEd. A menu beneath the Entry icon would probably do the trick.
>>
>> Henry
>>
>> [1] http://bblfish.net/blog/page9.html#t2005_12_04.14_17_02_642
>
> Does Atom allow there to be multiple parallel renditions of a blog  
> entry in different languages? I've been discussing with Dave  
> Johnson how we might provide a facility in Roller where a blog  
> entry might be provided in multiple languages and then select the  
> appropriate entry based on the contents of the HTTP GET. If this  
> were to be implemented, we'd need a way to express the same reality  
> in the Atom feed.

This is a complicated and delicate issue. An atom entry has been  
syntactically limited by the atom spec by the following clause

[[
    If multiple atom:entry elements with the same atom:id value  
appear in
    an Atom Feed Document, they represent the same entry.  Their
    atom:updated timestamps SHOULD be different.  If an Atom Feed
    Document contains multiple entries with the same atom:id, Atom
    Processors MAY choose to display all of them or some subset of them.
    One typical behavior would be to display only the entry with the
    latest atom:updated timestamp.
]] last para of section 4.1.1 of http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4287

So it is not really possible to put atom entries with the same id and  
updated time stamp in a  feed (without a SHOULD level violation) even  
if they are translation of each other. That means that the Swiss  
would not be able to publish a law with the same atom id in french  
and in german, as they are obliged to publish these at the exact same  
time by law. (No linguistic preference)

If we want to respect this we have to give different translations of  
a document different ids. We should be able to specify that they are  
translations of each other some other way. Using the Atom OWL  
ontology [1] we could do this by adding some translation relation  
between the entries. Once this the best way to do this is settled and  
that it satisfies our needs it should be possible to put a proposal  
to the atom syntax group for an extension to their xml format.

So perhaps something like this is needed

[ a :Feed, :Version;

     :title [ :value "Example Feed";
              :type "text/plain" ];
     :link  [ :href <http://example.org/>;
              :rel iana:alternate ];
     :updated "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:dateTime;
     :author [ :name "John Doe" ];
     :id <urn:uuid:60a76c80-d399-11d9-b93C-0003939e0af6>;

     :entry [ a :Entry;
              :title [ :value "Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok";
                       :type "text/plain" ];
              :link [  :href <http://example.org/2003/12/13/en/atom03>;
                       :rel iana:alternate ];
              :id <tag:example.com,2005/en/atom03>;
              :updated "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:dateTime;
              :summary [  :value "After a course of integration in  
French philosophy,...";
                          :type "text/plain" ];

              ext:translation <tag:example.com,2005/fr/atom03>

            ];

     :entry [ a :Entry;
              :title [ :value "Des Robot Atomiques se rebellent";
                       :type "text/plain" ];
              :link [  :href <http://example.org/2003/12/13/fr/atom03>;
                       :rel iana:alternate ];
              :id <tag:example.com,2005/fr/atom03>;
              :updated "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:dateTime;
              :summary [  :value "Apres un cours d'integration en  
philosophie francaise...";
                          :type "text/plain" ]


              ext:translation <tag:example.com,2005/en/atom03>

            ];
] .


The ext:translation relation above relates a :Entry to an :EntryId  
which is to say that it cannot distinguish between one version of an  
entry and another. So we would either be saying that each version of  
one entry is always going to be a translation of the other, or that  
there is some version of the other entry that is a translation of  
this one (which is a little too vague for comfort).

We could be more precise by giving each entry version its unique id,  
in which case we could say that this particular entry is a  
translation of that particular entry, which would be more precise and  
satisfactory. In N3:


[ a :Feed, :Version;

     :title [ :value "Example Feed";
              :type "text/plain" ];
     :link  [ :href <http://example.org/>;
              :rel iana:alternate ];
     :updated "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:dateTime;
     :author [ :name "John Doe" ];
     :id <urn:uuid:60a76c80-d399-11d9-b93C-0003939e0af6>;

     :entry [ a :Entry;

              = _:someid1;


              :title [ :value "Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok";
                       :type "text/plain" ];
              :link [  :href <http://example.org/2003/12/13/en/atom03>;
                       :rel iana:alternate ];
              :id <tag:example.com,2005/en/atom03>;
              :updated "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:dateTime;
              :summary [  :value "After a course of integration in  
French philosophy,...";
                          :type "text/plain" ];

              ext:translation _:someid2;

            ];

     :entry [ a :Entry;

               = _:someid2;

              :title [ :value "Des Robot Atomiques se rebellent";
                       :type "text/plain" ];
              :link [  :href <http://example.org/2003/12/13/fr/atom03>;
                       :rel iana:alternate ];
              :id <tag:example.com,2005/fr/atom03>;
              :updated "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:dateTime;
              :summary [  :value "Apres un cours d'integration en  
philosophie francaise...";
                          :type "text/plain" ]


              ext:translation _:someid1;

            ];
] .

So in RDF we have no trouble doing the right thing and we have choice.

It should therefore be possible to express something like the above  
in atom syntax. How to do it is of course less clear given the lack  
of clear semantics for the atom xml.


Henry Story

[1] http://groups.google.com/group/atom-owl/browse_frm/thread/ 
a5ff6dcca7b512b8


>
> S.




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Subject: Re: todo: add language encoding information
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 15:34:32 -0000
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Henry Story wrote:
>> Does Atom allow there to be multiple parallel renditions of a blog  entry 
>> in different languages?
>
> So it is not really possible to put atom entries with the same id and 
> updated time stamp in a  feed (without a SHOULD level violation) even  if 
> they are translation of each other. That means that the Swiss  would not 
> be able to publish a law with the same atom id in french  and in german, 
> as they are obliged to publish these at the exact same  time by law. (No 
> linguistic preference)

The Swiss may need to publish laws in multiple languages simultaneously, but 
most users surely don't need to read those laws in multiple languages 
simultaneously. Why waste their bandwidth including several translations in 
one feed when it would be far more convenient if you just had a separate 
feed for each language?

If you want to link the various translations together you can add one or 
more link elements at the top of the feed with rel="alternate" and hreflang 
set to the language of the alternate feed. If you're feeling really 
enthusiastic you can include alternate links pointing to the translated html 
pages for each entry too.

No extensions need to be made to the Atom spec. No wasted bandwidth by 
having multiple translations in a feed that may not be used. But you can 
still publish muliple language simultaneously by making sure you update all 
feeds simultaneously. You could even publish all the feeds at the same URL, 
serving the correct translation based on the HTTP Accept-Language header.

I may be missing something here, but it seems to me like a reasonable 
solution to the problem.

Regards
James




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Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 10:17:01 -0800
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FYI...

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: todo: add language encoding information
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 19:03:25 +0100
From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
To: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
References: <46241D30-FCF6-4DE9-9558-72D065B97D49@gmail.com>

Hi James, you forgot to send this to the Atom syntax list, where it
will be most useful.

Henry
On 22 Dec 2005, at 18:53, James M Snell wrote:

> (this may not make it to the atom-owl list as I'm not subscribed to  
> that one)
>
> One possibility for this in Atom is to provide multiple Atom  
> documents, each covering their own language.  Given that the date  
> restriction only covers Atom entries within the *same* feed  
> document, the following would be perfectly acceptable:
>
> <feed xml:lang="de">
>   ...
>   <entry>
>     <id>tag:example.org,2005:some_entry</id>
>     ...
>   </entry>
> </feed>
>
> <feed xml:lang="fr">
>   ...
>   <entry>
>     <id>tag:example.org,2005:some_entry</id>
>     ...
>   </entry>
> </feed>
>
> To indicate that the feeds were translations of one another, a new  
> "translation" link rel could be established on the feed level
>
> <feed xml:lang="de">
>   ...
>   <link rel="translation"
>         hreflang="fr"
>         href="http://.../thefeed?lang=fr"
>   <entry>
>     <id>tag:example.org,2005:some_entry</id>
>     ...
>   </entry>
> </feed>
>
> <feed xml:lang="fr">
>   ...
>   <link rel="translation"
>         hreflang="de"
>         href="http://.../thefeed?lang=de"
>   <entry>
>     <id>tag:example.org,2005:some_entry</id>
>     ...
>   </entry>
> </feed>
>
> - James
>
> Henry Story wrote:
>> Sorry again to take so long to respond. I have been a little too  
>> busy to respond recently.
>> On 4 Dec 2005, at 16:42, Simon Phipps wrote:
>>> On Dec 4, 2005, at 14:33, Henry Story wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have written my first blog entry in French [1] which has made  
>>>> me aware that
>>>> it would be very useful to add language information to the atom  
>>>> file generated by
>>>> BlogEd. A menu beneath the Entry icon would probably do the trick.
>>>>
>>>> Henry
>>>>
>>>> [1] http://bblfish.net/blog/page9.html#t2005_12_04.14_17_02_642
>>>
>>> Does Atom allow there to be multiple parallel renditions of a  
>>> blog entry in different languages? I've been discussing with Dave  
>>> Johnson how we might provide a facility in Roller where a blog  
>>> entry might be provided in multiple languages and then select the  
>>> appropriate entry based on the contents of the HTTP GET. If this  
>>> were to be implemented, we'd need a way to express the same  
>>> reality in the Atom feed.
>> This is a complicated and delicate issue. An atom entry has been  
>> syntactically limited by the atom spec by the following clause
>> [[
>>    If multiple atom:entry elements with the same atom:id value  
>> appear in
>>    an Atom Feed Document, they represent the same entry.  Their
>>    atom:updated timestamps SHOULD be different.  If an Atom Feed
>>    Document contains multiple entries with the same atom:id, Atom
>>    Processors MAY choose to display all of them or some subset of  
>> them.
>>    One typical behavior would be to display only the entry with the
>>    latest atom:updated timestamp.
>> ]] last para of section 4.1.1 of http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4287
>> So it is not really possible to put atom entries with the same id  
>> and updated time stamp in a  feed (without a SHOULD level  
>> violation) even if they are translation of each other. That means  
>> that the Swiss would not be able to publish a law with the same  
>> atom id in french and in german, as they are obliged to publish  
>> these at the exact same time by law. (No linguistic preference)
>> If we want to respect this we have to give different translations  
>> of a document different ids. We should be able to specify that  
>> they are translations of each other some other way. Using the Atom  
>> OWL ontology [1] we could do this by adding some translation  
>> relation between the entries. Once this the best way to do this is  
>> settled and that it satisfies our needs it should be possible to  
>> put a proposal to the atom syntax group for an extension to their  
>> xml format.
>> So perhaps something like this is needed
>> [ a :Feed, :Version;
>>     :title [ :value "Example Feed";
>>              :type "text/plain" ];
>>     :link  [ :href <http://example.org/>;
>>              :rel iana:alternate ];
>>     :updated "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:dateTime;
>>     :author [ :name "John Doe" ];
>>     :id <urn:uuid:60a76c80-d399-11d9-b93C-0003939e0af6>;
>>     :entry [ a :Entry;
>>              :title [ :value "Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok";
>>                       :type "text/plain" ];
>>              :link [  :href <http://example.org/2003/12/13/en/ 
>> atom03>;
>>                       :rel iana:alternate ];
>>              :id <tag:example.com,2005/en/atom03>;
>>              :updated "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:dateTime;
>>              :summary [  :value "After a course of integration in  
>> French philosophy,...";
>>                          :type "text/plain" ];
>>              ext:translation <tag:example.com,2005/fr/atom03>
>>            ];
>>     :entry [ a :Entry;
>>              :title [ :value "Des Robot Atomiques se rebellent";
>>                       :type "text/plain" ];
>>              :link [  :href <http://example.org/2003/12/13/fr/ 
>> atom03>;
>>                       :rel iana:alternate ];
>>              :id <tag:example.com,2005/fr/atom03>;
>>              :updated "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:dateTime;
>>              :summary [  :value "Apres un cours d'integration en  
>> philosophie francaise...";
>>                          :type "text/plain" ]
>>              ext:translation <tag:example.com,2005/en/atom03>
>>            ];
>> ] .
>> The ext:translation relation above relates a :Entry to an :EntryId  
>> which is to say that it cannot distinguish between one version of  
>> an entry and another. So we would either be saying that each  
>> version of one entry is always going to be a translation of the  
>> other, or that there is some version of the other entry that is a  
>> translation of this one (which is a little too vague for comfort).
>> We could be more precise by giving each entry version its unique  
>> id, in which case we could say that this particular entry is a  
>> translation of that particular entry, which would be more precise  
>> and satisfactory. In N3:
>> [ a :Feed, :Version;
>>     :title [ :value "Example Feed";
>>              :type "text/plain" ];
>>     :link  [ :href <http://example.org/>;
>>              :rel iana:alternate ];
>>     :updated "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:dateTime;
>>     :author [ :name "John Doe" ];
>>     :id <urn:uuid:60a76c80-d399-11d9-b93C-0003939e0af6>;
>>     :entry [ a :Entry;
>>              = _:someid1;
>>              :title [ :value "Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok";
>>                       :type "text/plain" ];
>>              :link [  :href <http://example.org/2003/12/13/en/ 
>> atom03>;
>>                       :rel iana:alternate ];
>>              :id <tag:example.com,2005/en/atom03>;
>>              :updated "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:dateTime;
>>              :summary [  :value "After a course of integration in  
>> French philosophy,...";
>>                          :type "text/plain" ];
>>              ext:translation _:someid2;
>>            ];
>>     :entry [ a :Entry;
>>               = _:someid2;
>>              :title [ :value "Des Robot Atomiques se rebellent";
>>                       :type "text/plain" ];
>>              :link [  :href <http://example.org/2003/12/13/fr/ 
>> atom03>;
>>                       :rel iana:alternate ];
>>              :id <tag:example.com,2005/fr/atom03>;
>>              :updated "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:dateTime;
>>              :summary [  :value "Apres un cours d'integration en  
>> philosophie francaise...";
>>                          :type "text/plain" ]
>>              ext:translation _:someid1;
>>            ];
>> ] .
>> So in RDF we have no trouble doing the right thing and we have  
>> choice.
>> It should therefore be possible to express something like the  
>> above in atom syntax. How to do it is of course less clear given  
>> the lack of clear semantics for the atom xml.
>> Henry Story
>> [1] http://groups.google.com/group/atom-owl/browse_frm/thread/ 
>> a5ff6dcca7b512b8
>>>
>>> S.





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* James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> [2005-12-22 19:30]:
> To indicate that the feeds were translations of one another, a
> new  "translation" link rel could be established on the feed
> level
>=20
> <feed xml:lang=3D"de">
>   ...
>   <link rel=3D"translation"
>         hreflang=3D"fr"
>         href=3D"http://.../thefeed?lang=3Dfr"
>   <entry>
>     <id>tag:example.org,2005:some_entry</id>
>     ...
>   </entry>
> </feed>
>=20
> <feed xml:lang=3D"fr">
>   ...
>   <link rel=3D"translation"
>         hreflang=3D"de"
>         href=3D"http://.../thefeed?lang=3Dde"
>   <entry>
>     <id>tag:example.org,2005:some_entry</id>
>     ...
>   </entry>
> </feed>

Is that even necessary? Wouldn=E2=80=99t @rel=3D'self' already work here?

Regards,
--=20
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
Subject: Re: todo: add language encoding information
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 19:47:28 +0100
To: Phipps Simon <Simon.Phipps@Sun.COM>
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Simon is not a member of the atom-syntax list. I imagine his response  
will get through atom syntax moderation at some point, though as we  
are in holiday season, I imagine this could take some time.

I have also changed the policy on atom-owl@googlegroups.com to allow  
posts by non members, forcing them through a moderation stage. This  
option was not available on google groups when I started the group.  
So you non members can cc that group hapily now. :-)

Henry

On 22 Dec 2005, at 18:44, Simon Phipps wrote:

>
> On Dec 22, 2005, at 15:34, James Holderness wrote:
>
>> Henry Story wrote:
>>>> Does Atom allow there to be multiple parallel renditions of a  
>>>> blog  entry in different languages?
>>>
>>> So it is not really possible to put atom entries with the same id  
>>> and updated time stamp in a  feed (without a SHOULD level  
>>> violation) even  if they are translation of each other. That  
>>> means that the Swiss  would not be able to publish a law with the  
>>> same atom id in french  and in german, as they are obliged to  
>>> publish these at the exact same  time by law. (No linguistic  
>>> preference)
>>
>> The Swiss may need to publish laws in multiple languages  
>> simultaneously, but most users surely don't need to read those  
>> laws in multiple languages simultaneously. Why waste their  
>> bandwidth including several translations in one feed when it would  
>> be far more convenient if you just had a separate feed for each  
>> language?
>
> You're making a couple of dodgy assumptions here:
>
> * You're assuming Atom is just used by an end-user here. Atom feeds  
> can also be used to pass data between servers, for backup, or for  
> content transfer. Structuring multilingual data as multiple feeds  
> without including cross-relationships with the data involves loss  
> of meta-data.
>
> * You're assuming multiple languages are always present. When I  
> blog, I have some entries translated for me because they relate to  
> local issues in a country I am visiting. I won't be making a  
> permanent pt-br feed when I visit Brazil, but I may well want the  
> translated blog entry to be made available in the syndication feed.
>
> It may well be appropriate to have multiple feeds in the case Henry  
> cites where there is a stable set of translations, but the more  
> general case merits serious consideration. James Snell has an  
> interesting proposal that addresses the issue directly with minimal  
> change.
>
> S.




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From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
Subject: Re: todo: add language encoding information
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:16:21 +0100
To: James Holderness <j4_james@hotmail.com>
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Simon makes some good practical points in the message I forwarded  
just previous to this one. But I would like to make some more  
abstract points too for those of you who are more of the Jungian  
introspective/rational character types (most of us here I guess or  
else we would be out surfing on the beach ;-)

On 22 Dec 2005, at 16:34, James Holderness wrote:
> Henry Story wrote:
>>> Does Atom allow there to be multiple parallel renditions of a  
>>> blog  entry in different languages?
>>
>> So it is not really possible to put atom entries with the same id  
>> and updated time stamp in a  feed (without a SHOULD level  
>> violation) even  if they are translation of each other. That means  
>> that the Swiss  would not be able to publish a law with the same  
>> atom id in french  and in german, as they are obliged to publish  
>> these at the exact same  time by law. (No linguistic preference)
>
> The Swiss may need to publish laws in multiple languages  
> simultaneously, but most users surely don't need to read those laws  
> in multiple languages simultaneously. Why waste their bandwidth  
> including several translations in one feed when it would be far  
> more convenient if you just had a separate feed for each language?

The atom syntax has a very clear restriction which I believe is of  
semantic importance [1]. And that is as I mentioned in my original  
post that:

[[
    If multiple atom:entry elements with the same atom:id value  
appear in
    an Atom Feed Document, they represent the same entry.  Their
    atom:updated timestamps SHOULD be different.  If an Atom Feed
    Document contains multiple entries with the same atom:id, Atom
    Processors MAY choose to display all of them or some subset of them.
    One typical behavior would be to display only the entry with the
    latest atom:updated timestamp.
]] last para of section 4.1.1 of http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4287

What would be the point of having this restriction if it was not of  
semantic significance? It seems a little odd to tell people that they  
cannot put two entries into a feed with the same updated time stamp,  
but that they can put them into two different feeds and all is ok.  
Why have that restricition in that case? My guess is that the  
restriction was accepted because it worked on the following  
intuition. The atom id is a string that identifies something we can  
think of as a document. It therefore does not make sense to have two  
different incompatible versions of the same document with the same  
time stamp. The atom id is therefore much more restrictive than a URL  
[2]. A URL in web architecture can have any number of different  
representations at the same time. Atom clearly rules this out. So my  
guess is that we should take this seriously. The id is identifying a  
document. And a document cannot be wholly in two languages at once.

Once we accept this, then there is no big problem. We just need the  
translations to have 2 different ids. They are after all two  
different documents. We can then put the two translations into the  
same feed, or different feeds without problem.

All we need is to find a way to state that one document is a  
translation of the other. And James Snell's proposal is a good start  
at getting us there (it is a possible translation of the N3 proposal  
in my original e-mail).

> If you want to link the various translations together you can add  
> one or more link elements at the top of the feed with  
> rel="alternate" and hreflang set to the language of the alternate  
> feed. If you're feeling really enthusiastic you can include  
> alternate links pointing to the translated html pages for each  
> entry too.

If my argument above is sound then we should be able to put the  
translations in the same feed. What we want to do then, is find some  
way to state that one entry in the feed is a translation of the other  
entry in the same feed. So though the solution saying that one feed  
is a translation of the other is ok (apart from it breaking what I  
think are the inherent semantics in atom) it is also too general. We  
need more precise tools.

> No extensions need to be made to the Atom spec. No wasted bandwidth  
> by having multiple translations in a feed that may not be used. But  
> you can still publish muliple language simultaneously by making  
> sure you update all feeds simultaneously. You could even publish  
> all the feeds at the same URL, serving the correct translation  
> based on the HTTP Accept-Language header.

Those are cool ideas. But again, it would be good to have a way to  
specify that an entry in one feed is a translation of a particular  
different entry in the other feed.

>
> I may be missing something here, but it seems to me like a  
> reasonable solution to the problem.
>

Those were my first thoughts too btw. And also Retos. :-)

> Regards
> James

I hope this type of argument also helps show how the semantics we are  
working on at the atom-owl group can help reveal hidden meanings  
lurking in the atom syntax. We do welcome people to help us improove  
it so that it can become an official semantics for atom (as was  
initially specified in the atom charter)

Thanks for your attention,

Henry Story

[1] for some quick thoughts on syntax and semantics see my recent post
http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/bblfish? 
entry=the_relation_between_xml_and
(not quite right, but nearly there)
[2] something we need to fix in the current atom-owl ontology




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From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
Subject: Re: todo: add language encoding information
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I still think it would be good to be able to have to entries in one  
feed and be able to state that they are translations of one another.  
I don't think that putting them in different feeds is going to cover  
all the cases. See below.

On 22 Dec 2005, at 17:45, James M Snell wrote:
> One possibility for this in Atom is to provide multiple Atom  
> documents, each covering their own language.  Given that the date  
> restriction only covers Atom entries within the *same* feed  
> document, the following would be perfectly acceptable:
>
> <feed xml:lang="de">
>   ...
>   <entry>
>     <id>tag:example.org,2005:some_entry</id>
>     ...
>   </entry>
> </feed>
>
> <feed xml:lang="fr">
>   ...
>   <entry>
>     <id>tag:example.org,2005:some_entry</id>
>     ...
>   </entry>
> </feed>
>

[note I change my mind on this half way through the thought]

Ah. I did not read your post carefully enough when posting my  
previous reply to James Holderness.
I don't in fact think this is ok. If the date restriction covers  
entries inside the same feed (which can be millions of entries long  
btw) it has to do so for some good reason. Or else why put the  
restriction in there at all? Now that atom is final, and we cannot  
change the restriction I think we had better assume it is there for a  
very good reason. That will make us all look more intelligent that  
otherwise for one.

So my best explanation is that the id at a time identifies one and  
only one entry - universally, semantically if you will. If books had  
isbn numbers that persisted over editorial changes then this would be  
equivalent to our id. By using the isbn number of a book we could  
then refer to all the transformations of that book. But it would not  
make sense perhaps to have two different books versions published at  
the same time, with the same isbn number... (no that makes  
sense?!)... by the same publisher... Oops. That looks like the feed  
has taken the role of the publisher in the analogy...

(ponders)

Ok. So that would make me change my mind. It should be possible to  
have two entries with the same id and the same updated time stamp but  
different content in two different feeds. This would suggest that the  
feed is really part of the identity of the entry (and that the motto  
"it's the entry stupid" is wrong).

> To indicate that the feeds were translations of one another, a new  
> "translation" link rel could be established on the feed level
>
> <feed xml:lang="de">
>   ...
>   <link rel="translation"
>         hreflang="fr"
>         href="http://.../thefeed?lang=fr"
>   <entry>
>     <id>tag:example.org,2005:some_entry</id>
>     ...
>   </entry>
> </feed>
>
> <feed xml:lang="fr">
>   ...
>   <link rel="translation"
>         hreflang="de"
>         href="http://.../thefeed?lang=de"
>   <entry>
>     <id>tag:example.org,2005:some_entry</id>
>     ...
>   </entry>
> </feed>
>

I still would suggest it be better to have different ids for the  
translations so that they can be put in the same feed. After all, why  
not allow that? If I am a publisher and I am publishing books, why  
could I not simultaneously publish a book and its translation? It  
should be possible then somehow to state that one entry is a  
translation of the other. Is there a way to do what I was going  
trying to state here in N3.  This is really the problem that Simon  
Phipps was looking at.


>> [ a :Feed, :Version;
>>     :title [ :value "Example Feed";
>>              :type "text/plain" ];
>>     :link  [ :href <http://example.org/>;
>>              :rel iana:alternate ];
>>     :updated "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:dateTime;
>>     :author [ :name "John Doe" ];
>>     :id <urn:uuid:60a76c80-d399-11d9-b93C-0003939e0af6>;
>>     :entry [ a :Entry;
>>              = _:someid1;
>>              :title [ :value "Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok";
>>                       :type "text/plain" ];
>>              :link [  :href <http://example.org/2003/12/13/en/ 
>> atom03>;
>>                       :rel iana:alternate ];
>>              :id <tag:example.com,2005/en/atom03>;
>>              :updated "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:dateTime;
>>              :summary [  :value "After a course of integration in  
>> French philosophy,...";
>>                          :type "text/plain" ];
>>              ext:translation _:someid2;
>>            ];
>>     :entry [ a :Entry;
>>               = _:someid2;
>>              :title [ :value "Des Robot Atomiques se rebellent";
>>                       :type "text/plain" ];
>>              :link [  :href <http://example.org/2003/12/13/fr/ 
>> atom03>;
>>                       :rel iana:alternate ];
>>              :id <tag:example.com,2005/fr/atom03>;
>>              :updated "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:dateTime;
>>              :summary [  :value "Apres un cours d'integration en  
>> philosophie francaise...";
>>                          :type "text/plain" ]
>>              ext:translation _:someid1;
>>            ];
>> ] .




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A. Pagaltzis wrote:
> * James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> [2005-12-22 19:30]:
>> To indicate that the feeds were translations of one another, a
>> new  "translation" link rel could be established on the feed
>> level
>
> Is that even necessary? Wouldn=E2=80=99t @rel=3D'self' already work her=
e?

I would have thought @rel=3D'alternate' (an alternate version of the reso=
urce=20
described by the containing element) slightly more appropriate than=20
@rel=3D'self' (a resource equivalent to the containing element). There's =
also=20
the restriction in section 4.1.1 that suggest that the 'self' link is the=
=20
"preferred URI for retrieving Atom Feed Documents representing this Atom=20
feed". I think that could be a bit confusing when mixed with hreflang.

Either way though, I agree that a new rel value isn't necessary.

Regards
James




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From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: todo: add language encoding information]
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 21:08:01 +0100
To: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
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Yes. That is one solution. But what we are looking for is how one can =20
state that two entries in the same feed are translations of one another.

Henry

On 22 Dec 2005, at 20:52, James M Snell wrote:

>
> Hmmm.. interesting thought, hadn't considered that.
>
> rel=3D"self" should always point to *this* document, and never to =20
> some other document, but if the document referenced is the same =20
> document just in a different language, then it is possible?  Good =20
> thinking but I'm not sure if it's legal according to the spec.
>
>  <feed xml:lang=3D"de">
>    ...
>    <link rel=3D"self"
>          hreflang=3D"fr"
>          href=3D"http://.../thefeed?lang=3Dfr"
>    <link rel=3D"self"
>          hreflang=3D"de"
>          href=3D"http://.../thefeed?lang=3Dde"
>    <entry>
>      <id>tag:example.org,2005:some_entry</id>
>      ...
>    </entry>
>  </feed>
>
> - James
>
> A. Pagaltzis wrote:
>> * James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> [2005-12-22 19:30]:
>>> To indicate that the feeds were translations of one another, a
>>> new  "translation" link rel could be established on the feed
>>> level
>>>
>>> <feed xml:lang=3D"de">
>>>   ...
>>>   <link rel=3D"translation"
>>>         hreflang=3D"fr"
>>>         href=3D"http://.../thefeed?lang=3Dfr"
>>>   <entry>
>>>     <id>tag:example.org,2005:some_entry</id>
>>>     ...
>>>   </entry>
>>> </feed>
>>>
>>> <feed xml:lang=3D"fr">
>>>   ...
>>>   <link rel=3D"translation"
>>>         hreflang=3D"de"
>>>         href=3D"http://.../thefeed?lang=3Dde"
>>>   <entry>
>>>     <id>tag:example.org,2005:some_entry</id>
>>>     ...
>>>   </entry>
>>> </feed>
>> Is that even necessary? Wouldn=92t @rel=3D'self' already work here?
>> Regards,





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Henry Story wrote:
> I still think it would be good to be able to have to entries in one  feed 
> and be able to state that they are translations of one another.  I don't 
> think that putting them in different feeds is going to cover  all the 
> cases. See below.

Fair enough. Simon certainly seemed to have a valid use case for that.

> I still would suggest it be better to have different ids for the 
> translations so that they can be put in the same feed.

I agree. I never said so in my original message but even if the entries are 
in different feeds I think their ids should be different. An identical id to 
me implies an identical entry (which an Atom processor can assume is a 
duplicate or an update).

> It should be possible then somehow to state that one entry is a 
> translation of the other. Is there a way to do what I was going  trying to 
> state here in N3.  This is really the problem that Simon  Phipps was 
> looking at.

Why not just have @rel='alternate' links on each atom:entry which point to 
their translations. Now I realise it's not possible to point to a specific 
entry in a feed, but you can point to its html permalink with 
@type='text/html'. Alternatively you could create a separate Atom document 
for each entry and then each entry in the feed would include a @rel='self' 
link pointing to their corresponding document with 
@type='application/atom+xml' as well as a @rel='alternate' links pointing to 
the Atom documents of any translations (also with 
@type='application/atom+xtml').

Regards
James




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Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: todo: add language encoding information]
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* James Holderness <j4_james@hotmail.com> [2005-12-22 21:00]:
> I would have thought @rel=3D'alternate' (an alternate version of
> the resource described by the containing element) slightly more
> appropriate than @rel=3D'self' (a resource equivalent to the
> containing element). There's also the restriction in section
> 4.1.1 that suggest that the 'self' link is the "preferred URI
> for retrieving Atom Feed Documents representing this Atom
> feed". I think that could be a bit confusing when mixed with
> hreflang.

Yeah, agreed. In retrospect I can=E2=80=99t think of why I picked `self`;
`alternate` is clearly the correct choice. D=E2=80=99oh.

Regards,
--=20
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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In that case, the only viable solution is an extension element.  This is=20
similar to the Thread Extension use case in which replies may appear=20
within the same feed as the original.

Here's how I would do it:

1. Introduce a new <translation> element.

       <translation id=3D"id_of_resource" />

2. Use rel=3D"alternate", hreflang=3D"{otherlanguage}" to point to other=20
documents that may contain translations.  I would prefer a "translation"=20
link rel but agree that reuse of alternate is better.

- James

Henry Story wrote:
> Yes. That is one solution. But what we are looking for is how one can=20
> state that two entries in the same feed are translations of one another.
>=20
> Henry
>=20
> On 22 Dec 2005, at 20:52, James M Snell wrote:
>=20
>>
>> Hmmm.. interesting thought, hadn't considered that.
>>
>> rel=3D"self" should always point to *this* document, and never to some=
=20
>> other document, but if the document referenced is the same document=20
>> just in a different language, then it is possible?  Good thinking but=20
>> I'm not sure if it's legal according to the spec.
>>
>>  <feed xml:lang=3D"de">
>>    ...
>>    <link rel=3D"self"
>>          hreflang=3D"fr"
>>          href=3D"http://.../thefeed?lang=3Dfr"
>>    <link rel=3D"self"
>>          hreflang=3D"de"
>>          href=3D"http://.../thefeed?lang=3Dde"
>>    <entry>
>>      <id>tag:example.org,2005:some_entry</id>
>>      ...
>>    </entry>
>>  </feed>
>>
>> - James
>>
>> A. Pagaltzis wrote:
>>> * James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> [2005-12-22 19:30]:
>>>> To indicate that the feeds were translations of one another, a
>>>> new  "translation" link rel could be established on the feed
>>>> level
>>>>
>>>> <feed xml:lang=3D"de">
>>>>   ...
>>>>   <link rel=3D"translation"
>>>>         hreflang=3D"fr"
>>>>         href=3D"http://.../thefeed?lang=3Dfr"
>>>>   <entry>
>>>>     <id>tag:example.org,2005:some_entry</id>
>>>>     ...
>>>>   </entry>
>>>> </feed>
>>>>
>>>> <feed xml:lang=3D"fr">
>>>>   ...
>>>>   <link rel=3D"translation"
>>>>         hreflang=3D"de"
>>>>         href=3D"http://.../thefeed?lang=3Dde"
>>>>   <entry>
>>>>     <id>tag:example.org,2005:some_entry</id>
>>>>     ...
>>>>   </entry>
>>>> </feed>
>>> Is that even necessary? Wouldn=92t @rel=3D'self' already work here?
>>> Regards,
>=20
>=20




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Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: todo: add language encoding information]
References: <43AAED9D.70505@gmail.com> <20051222183557.GT1120@klangraum>
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Hmmm.. interesting thought, hadn't considered that.

rel=3D"self" should always point to *this* document, and never to some=20
other document, but if the document referenced is the same document just=20
in a different language, then it is possible?  Good thinking but I'm not=20
sure if it's legal according to the spec.

  <feed xml:lang=3D"de">
    ...
    <link rel=3D"self"
          hreflang=3D"fr"
          href=3D"http://.../thefeed?lang=3Dfr"
    <link rel=3D"self"
          hreflang=3D"de"
          href=3D"http://.../thefeed?lang=3Dde"
    <entry>
      <id>tag:example.org,2005:some_entry</id>
      ...
    </entry>
  </feed>

- James

A. Pagaltzis wrote:
> * James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> [2005-12-22 19:30]:
>> To indicate that the feeds were translations of one another, a
>> new  "translation" link rel could be established on the feed
>> level
>>
>> <feed xml:lang=3D"de">
>>   ...
>>   <link rel=3D"translation"
>>         hreflang=3D"fr"
>>         href=3D"http://.../thefeed?lang=3Dfr"
>>   <entry>
>>     <id>tag:example.org,2005:some_entry</id>
>>     ...
>>   </entry>
>> </feed>
>>
>> <feed xml:lang=3D"fr">
>>   ...
>>   <link rel=3D"translation"
>>         hreflang=3D"de"
>>         href=3D"http://.../thefeed?lang=3Dde"
>>   <entry>
>>     <id>tag:example.org,2005:some_entry</id>
>>     ...
>>   </entry>
>> </feed>
>=20
> Is that even necessary? Wouldn=E2=80=99t @rel=3D'self' already work her=
e?
>=20
> Regards,




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Cc: atom-syntax Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>, atom-owl@googlegroups.com,
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From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
Subject: Re: todo: add language encoding information
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 22:33:49 +0100
To: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
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On 22 Dec 2005, at 21:34, James M Snell wrote:

> In that case, the only viable solution is an extension element.

Yep. I have added James Holderness's solution and clarified the =20
points in N3.

> This is similar to the Thread Extension use case in which replies =20
> may appear within the same feed as the original.
>
> Here's how I would do it:
>
> 1. Introduce a new <translation> element.
>
>       <translation id=3D"id_of_resource" />

That was like my first example rdf. And my question there was: would =20
this mean that the entry containing the translation element was a =20
translation of a entry with the given id, or of all entries with the =20
given id, or that all entries with the id of the containing element =20
were translations of entries with the given id? The problem is that =20
when one makes a translation of something one really wants to specify =20
which version of the entry pointed to is the translation.  Things may =20
otherwise get to be quite misleading.

> 2. Use rel=3D"alternate", hreflang=3D"{otherlanguage}" to point to =20
> other documents that may contain translations.  I would prefer a =20
> "translation" link rel but agree that reuse of alternate is better.

This solution is best for pointing to the place where the content of =20
the entry is translated I suppose. Here we are saying that the =20
content is translated at a certain place. In theory the titles and =20
the summaries could in both entries remain in english.

[ a :Feed, :Version;
   :entry [ a :Entry;
              :title [ :value "Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok";
                       :type "text/plain" ];
              :link [  :href <http://example.org/2003/12/13/en/atom03>;
                       :rel iana:alternate ];
              :id <tag:example.com,2005/en/atom03>;
              :updated "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:dateTime;
              :summary [  :value "After a course of integration in =20
French philosophy,...";
                          :type "text/plain" ];
              :content <http://example.org/2003/12/13/en/atom0.html>;
              :translation [ =3D <http://example.org/2003/12/13/fr/=20
atom0.html>;
                             :representation [ :type "text/html";
                                               :lang "fr" ]
                           ]
            ];

     :entry [ a :Entry;
              :title [ :value "Des Robot Atomiques se rebellent";
                       :type "text/plain" ];
              :link [  :href <http://example.org/2003/12/13/fr/atom03>;
                       :rel iana:alternate ];
              :id <tag:example.com,2005/fr/atom03>;
              :updated "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:dateTime;
              :content <http://example.org/2003/12/13/fr/atom0.html>;
              :translation [ =3D <http://example.org/2003/12/13/en/=20
atom0.html>;
                            :representation [ :type "text/html";
                                              :lang "en" ]
                           ];

            ];
] .


3. The suggestion by James Holderness

> Alternatively you could create a separate Atom document for each =20
> entry and then each entry in the feed would include a @rel=3D'self' =20
> link pointing to their corresponding document with =20
> @type=3D'application/atom+xml' as well as a @rel=3D'alternate' links =20
> pointing to the Atom documents of any translations (also with =20
> @type=3D'application/atom+xtml').

I suppose this would be a way to identify particular entries with =20
urls so that they could be identified directly, and so the entries =20
would be specified as translations of each other. In N3 this would be =20
something like my second example, but we use urls to identify the =20
entries and place the content at the url location.

That seems more appropriate when one wants the point to a translation =20
that translates both the content and the title and the summary (and =20
the metadata?).

[ a :Feed, :Version;
     :entry <http://example.org/2003/12/13/en/atom03.atom>;
     :entry <http://example.org/2003/12/13/fr/atom03.atom>
] .

http://example.org/2003/12/13/en/atom03.atom would return the =20
following representation
-----8<---
           <> a :Entry;
              :title [ :value "Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok";
                       :type "text/plain" ];
              :link [  :href <http://example.org/2003/12/13/en/atom03>;
                       :rel iana:alternate ];
              :id <tag:example.com,2005/en/atom03>;
              :updated "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:dateTime;
              :summary [  :value "After a course of integration in =20
French philosophy,...";
                          :type "text/plain" ];
              ext:translation <http://example.org/2003/12/13/fr/=20
atom03.atom>.
-----8<---

http://example.org/2003/12/13/fr/atom03.atom would return the =20
following representation
-----8<---
           <> a :Entry;
              :title [ :value "Des Robot Atomiques se rebellent";
                       :type "text/plain" ];
              :link [  :href <http://example.org/2003/12/13/fr/atom03>;
                       :rel iana:alternate ];
              :id <tag:example.com,2005/fr/atom03>;
              :updated "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:dateTime;
              :summary [  :value "Apres un cours d'integration en =20
philosophie francaise...";
                          :type "text/plain" ]
              ext:translation <http://example.org/2003/12/13/en/=20
atom03.atom> .
-----8<---


Does that cover all cases?

(I may be a little less quick to respond in the next few days, though =20
I'll try my best to keep up on this :-)

Henry

>
> - James
>
> Henry Story wrote:
>> Yes. That is one solution. But what we are looking for is how one =20
>> can state that two entries in the same feed are translations of =20
>> one another.
>> Henry
>> On 22 Dec 2005, at 20:52, James M Snell wrote:
>>>
>>> Hmmm.. interesting thought, hadn't considered that.
>>>
>>> rel=3D"self" should always point to *this* document, and never to =20
>>> some other document, but if the document referenced is the same =20
>>> document just in a different language, then it is possible?  Good =20
>>> thinking but I'm not sure if it's legal according to the spec.
>>>
>>>  <feed xml:lang=3D"de">
>>>    ...
>>>    <link rel=3D"self"
>>>          hreflang=3D"fr"
>>>          href=3D"http://.../thefeed?lang=3Dfr"
>>>    <link rel=3D"self"
>>>          hreflang=3D"de"
>>>          href=3D"http://.../thefeed?lang=3Dde"
>>>    <entry>
>>>      <id>tag:example.org,2005:some_entry</id>
>>>      ...
>>>    </entry>
>>>  </feed>
>>>
>>> - James
>>>
>>> A. Pagaltzis wrote:
>>>> * James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> [2005-12-22 19:30]:
>>>>> To indicate that the feeds were translations of one another, a
>>>>> new  "translation" link rel could be established on the feed
>>>>> level
>>>>>
>>>>> <feed xml:lang=3D"de">
>>>>>   ...
>>>>>   <link rel=3D"translation"
>>>>>         hreflang=3D"fr"
>>>>>         href=3D"http://.../thefeed?lang=3Dfr"
>>>>>   <entry>
>>>>>     <id>tag:example.org,2005:some_entry</id>
>>>>>     ...
>>>>>   </entry>
>>>>> </feed>
>>>>>
>>>>> <feed xml:lang=3D"fr">
>>>>>   ...
>>>>>   <link rel=3D"translation"
>>>>>         hreflang=3D"de"
>>>>>         href=3D"http://.../thefeed?lang=3Dde"
>>>>>   <entry>
>>>>>     <id>tag:example.org,2005:some_entry</id>
>>>>>     ...
>>>>>   </entry>
>>>>> </feed>
>>>> Is that even necessary? Wouldn=92t @rel=3D'self' already work here?
>>>> Regards,





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Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: todo: add language encoding information]
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James M Snell wrote:
> In that case, the only viable solution is an extension element.  This is 
> similar to the Thread Extension use case in which replies may appear 
> within the same feed as the original.

The similarity to the Thread Extension also occured to me, but I didn't have 
time to write more about it earlier. My thought was that we could perhaps 
get by with an extension attribute to the link element that would work for 
both cases. The link element already has an href for pointing to the feed 
itself, so all we need is an id to point to a particular entry in the feed. 
I guess for the Thead Extension you'd also need a new rel value though.

An example thead reply-to link would look something like this:

<link rel="in-reply-to"
  type="application/atom+xml"
  href=http://www.example.org/feed1.atom
  x:id="entry1_id" />

An example translation link would look something like this:

<link rel="alternate"
  type="application/atom+xml"
  hreflang="fr"
  x:id="french_entry_id" />

What do you think?

Regards
James




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From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: todo: add language encoding information]
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response below...

On 23 Dec 2005, at 10:56, James Holderness wrote:
>
> James M Snell wrote:
>> In that case, the only viable solution is an extension element.   
>> This is similar to the Thread Extension use case in which replies  
>> may appear within the same feed as the original.
>
> The similarity to the Thread Extension also occured to me, but I  
> didn't have time to write more about it earlier. My thought was  
> that we could perhaps get by with an extension attribute to the  
> link element that would work for both cases. The link element  
> already has an href for pointing to the feed itself, so all we need  
> is an id to point to a particular entry in the feed. I guess for  
> the Thead Extension you'd also need a new rel value though.
>
> An example thead reply-to link would look something like this:
>
> <link rel="in-reply-to"
>  type="application/atom+xml"
>  href=http://www.example.org/feed1.atom
>  x:id="entry1_id" />
>
> An example translation link would look something like this:
>
> <link rel="alternate"
>  type="application/atom+xml"
>  hreflang="fr"
>  x:id="french_entry_id" />
>
> What do you think?


The problem as I explained a little quickly in my mail yesterday, is  
that you are relating a entry and an id. Because there can be any  
number of entries with the same id it won't be clear which entry is  
the translation. So if we take an xml feed with one entry (A below)  
and  two entries with the same id (B, and C below) one of which is a  
translation of the first (I don't have time right now to write out  
the xml in full), and you then extract the facts using the atom-owl  
ontology for example [1], then you will be able to draw a graph like  
the following (not all the facts are drawn)


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As you see I drew your translation relation in blue. It relates an  
entry and an id <tag:eg.com,2005/en/atom03>. This id is the id of two  
entries (represented as circles). There is no way you can tell from  
the above relation which of the entries B or C is the translation of  
A. And that is an indeterminacy that as far as translations goes is  
probably unacceptable.

Henry

[1] I explain in more detail how xml and semantics relate here:
http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/bblfish? 
entry=the_relation_between_xml_and



> Regards
> James
>

--Apple-Mail-61-261337528--




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        bloged <users@bloged.dev.java.net>,
        Phipps Simon <Simon.Phipps@Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: todo: add language encoding information]
References: <43AAED9D.70505@gmail.com> <20051222183557.GT1120@klangraum> <43AB03ED.4020107@gmail.com> <254D8A7A-8956-4F15-BE34-23B2062DD737@bblfish.net> <43AB0DDA.8070007@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV938B07CB5FF3319E99177BE330@phx.gbl> <3B1E5638-A186-43FF-B227-AC78107D7D27@bblfish.net>
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Henry Story wrote:

> The problem as I explained a little quickly in my mail yesterday, is=20
> that you are relating a entry and an id. Because there can be any numbe=
r=20
> of entries with the same id it won't be clear which entry is the=20
> translation.=20


I'm not sure if this is technically relevant or not, but in the case at=20
hand neither entry is the translation, or alternately both are. Legally=20
both are equally valid. This is customary in bi/multilingual=20
jurisdictions and international treaties. For example, article 133 of=20
the Geneva convention states:

The present Convention is established in English and in French. Both=20
texts are equally authentic. The Swiss Federal Council shall arrange for=20
official translations of the Convention to be made in the Russian and=20
Spanish languages.

In that case, I suppose, neither English nor French is a translation but=20
  Russian and Spanish are.

--=20
=EF=BB=BFElliotte Rusty Harold  elharo@metalab.unc.edu
XML in a Nutshell 3rd Edition Just Published!
http://www.cafeconleche.org/books/xian3/
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=3D0596007647/cafeaulaitA/ref=3Dnos=
im




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Friday, December 23, 2005, 10:47:23 AM, Henry Story wrote:

> On 23 Dec 2005, at 10:56, James Holderness wrote:
>>
>> The similarity to the Thread Extension also occured to me, but I  
>> didn't have time to write more about it earlier. My thought was  
>> that we could perhaps get by with an extension attribute to the  
>> link element that would work for both cases. The link element  
>> already has an href for pointing to the feed itself, so all we need  
>> is an id to point to a particular entry in the feed. I guess for  
>> the Thead Extension you'd also need a new rel value though.
>>
>> An example thead reply-to link would look something like this:
>>
>> <link rel="in-reply-to"
>>  type="application/atom+xml"
>>  href=http://www.example.org/feed1.atom
>>  x:id="entry1_id" />
>>
>> An example translation link would look something like this:
>>
>> <link rel="alternate"
>>  type="application/atom+xml"
>>  hreflang="fr"
>>  x:id="french_entry_id" />
>>
>> What do you think?

I assume that there is an href missing from that?

Isn't it likely that the entry will have been dropped from the end of
the feed by the time anyone dereferences it? Would it be better to
point the link at a static Atom Entry document instead.


I've said it before, but I strongly dislike extending standard
elements by adding namespaced attributes. I think that it is a failing
that the specification defines several extension points, then pretty
much says that you can extend anything pretty much anywhere, and fails
to explain why some options might be better than others. It is
difficult to support attribute extensions in an APP server or Atom API
without explicitly coding support for each one. It is quite likely
that some implementations will fail to preserve the namespaced
attribute and forward on a corrupted link element without it.

The spec's statement that "the role of other foreign markup is
undefined by this specification", would just be an unhelpful
comp.lang.c-ism, except C does at least clearly define the meaning and
implications of the term "undefined".

But anyway...

> The problem as I explained a little quickly in my mail yesterday, is  
> that you are relating a entry and an id. Because there can be any  
> number of entries with the same id it won't be clear which entry is  
> the translation.

The description of atom:id in the spec flounders slightly, but I
assumed that the intention was that representations of entries only
vary over time. The use of the word "revision" implies that to me. So,
the relation is to any revision of the entry with that id, though the
latest is probably most relevant.

Unlike HTTP, Atom Syntax can't support conneg, so I don't think that
it would be useful for entries to vary over anything other than time.
If you want to support multi-languages, I think it is better to build
that on top of Atom's infrastructure via linking, rather than
underneath it via stretching the scope of the entry id.

-- 
Dave




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From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: todo: add language encoding information]
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On 23 Dec 2005, at 12:37, Elliotte Harold wrote:

> Henry Story wrote:
>
>> The problem as I explained a little quickly in my mail yesterday,  
>> is that you are relating a entry and an id. Because there can be  
>> any number of entries with the same id it won't be clear which  
>> entry is the translation.
>
>
> I'm not sure if this is technically relevant or not, but in the  
> case at hand neither entry is the translation, or alternately both  
> are. Legally both are equally valid. This is customary in bi/ 
> multilingual jurisdictions and international treaties. For example,  
> article 133 of the Geneva convention states:

I think you have not quite grasped the point my graph was trying to  
make. Perhaps I did not explain myself clearly enough. The graph  
represents a feed with three entries A, B and C.
B and C share the same id. C has an updated time stamp that is after  
B so C is an update of B.
If the translation link from A is pointing to the id that B and C  
share (the red line), then it is not possible to tell which entry A  
is a translation of. Is it B or is it C? But clearly (to a human who  
speaks both english and french) A is a translation of C, not of B. So  
you can't have a link pointing from an entry to an id, without  
loosing some very important information. We need something more  
specific. We need a link pointing from A to C as shown by the blue line.


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>
> The present Convention is established in English and in French.  
> Both texts are equally authentic. The Swiss Federal Council shall  
> arrange for official translations of the Convention to be made in  
> the Russian and Spanish languages.

Yes. It is true that if we have a link pointing from A to C then we  
could define the inverse to also be true. That is we could (in OWL)  
specify that the blue translation relation is symmetric. I think that  
is another issue. One can argue for and against this. The swiss would  
probably either want a symmetric translation relation, or make it a  
policy to always have two relations going both ways. This would allow  
us to cover both the Swiss case and other cases such as a relation  
between an entry for Shakespears "Romeo and Juliet" pointing to its  
french translation, where clearly it would be false to state that the  
english version was also a translation of the french version.

I hope this makes my intial intent clearer.

Henry

> In that case, I suppose, neither English nor French is a  
> translation but  Russian and Spanish are.
>
> -- 
> Elliotte Rusty Harold  elharo@metalab.unc.edu
> XML in a Nutshell 3rd Edition Just Published!
> http://www.cafeconleche.org/books/xian3/
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0596007647/cafeaulaitA/ 
> ref=nosim


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From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Dec 23 18:37:52 2005
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From: Walter Underwood <wunder@verity.com>
To: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>,
        Elliotte Harold <elharo@metalab.unc.edu>
cc: atom-owl@googlegroups.com, atom-syntax Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>,
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Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: todo: add language encoding information]
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--On December 23, 2005 11:31:22 PM +0100 Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net> wrote:
>
> So  you can't have a link pointing from an entry to an id, without losing some
> very important information. We need something more  specific. We need a link
> pointing from A to C as shown by the blue line.

Some people will need that in the guts of their publishing system. Why do
we need it in Atom? Is there something essential that subscribers cannot do
because this isn't represented? This sounds like something needed for the
publishing/translation workflow, not for the general readership.

Extended provenance information is sometimes needed, but there is almost
no limit to that. It certainly does not stop at translation, source, and
translator. I'm reading a new translation of Andersen's tales where 
"Thumbelina" is "Inchelina" because the translator knew the right dialect
of Danish. That is significant, but does it need to be in Atom?

The semantics here should be exactly the same as for dates -- the date
means what the publisher thinks it means. Same for language info. Trying
to get more exact means that the model will be wrong for some publishers
that generate completely legal Atom.

wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Software Architect, Verity




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David Powell wrote:
>>> <link rel="alternate"
>>>  type="application/atom+xml"
>>>  hreflang="fr"
>>>  x:id="french_entry_id" />
>>>
>>> What do you think?
>
> I assume that there is an href missing from that?

Actually no. At least not necessarily. That was to indicate the special case 
where the link was pointing to an entry in the same feed.

> Isn't it likely that the entry will have been dropped from the end of
> the feed by the time anyone dereferences it? Would it be better to
> point the link at a static Atom Entry document instead.

I would say that's up to the publisher to decide since it depends on how 
they expect the information to be used. There's nothing wrong with them 
linking to an Atom entry document (and that was one of my suggested 
solutions earlier), but creating a separate document for every entry may not 
be something they're willing to do.

If a client is already subscribed to the feed containing the translation and 
they save all data in the feed then the problem goes away. Alternatively the 
publisher could use the Feed History extension (when it eventually becomes 
available) which would enable a client to search through the archives to 
find the translation if necessary.

> to explain why some options might be better than others. It is
> difficult to support attribute extensions in an APP sFrom owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Dec 24 01:31:34 2005
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To: <atom-owl@googlegroups.com>, "atom-syntax Syntax" <atom-syntax@imc.org>,
        "bloged" <users@bloged.dev.java.net>
References: <43AAED9D.70505@gmail.com> <20051222183557.GT1120@klangraum> <43AB03ED.4020107@gmail.com> <254D8A7A-8956-4F15-BE34-23B2062DD737@bblfish.net> <43AB0DDA.8070007@gmail.com> <BAY106-DAV938B07CB5FF3319E99177BE330@phx.gbl> <3B1E5638-A186-43FF-B227-AC78107D7D27@bblfish.net> <1634791348.20051223114049@djpowell.net>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: todo: add language encoding information]
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 06:23:28 -0000
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David Powell wrote:
>>> <link rel="alternate"
>>>  type="application/atom+xml"
>>>  hreflang="fr"
>>>  x:id="french_entry_id" />
>>>
>>> What do you think?
>
> I assume that there is an href missing from that?

Actually no. At least not necessarily. That was to indicate the special case 
where the link was pointing to an entry in the same feed.

> Isn't it likely that the entry will have been dropped from the end of
> the feed by the time anyone dereferences it? Would it be better to
> point the link at a static Atom Entry document instead.

I would say that's up to the publisher to decide since it depends on how 
they expect the information to be used. There's nothing wrong with them 
linking to an Atom entry document (and that was one of my suggested 
solutions earlier), but creating a separate document for every entry may not 
be something they're willing to do.

If a client is already subscribed to the feed containing the translation and 
they save all data in the feed then the problem goes away. Alternatively the 
publisher could use the Feed History extension (when it eventually becomes 
available) which would enable a client to search through the archives to 
find the translation if necessary.

> to explain why some options might be better than others. It is
> difficult to support attribute extensions in an APP server or Atom API
> without explicitly coding support for each one. It is quite likely
> that some implementations will fail to preserve the namespaced
> attribute and forward on a corrupted link element without it.

That had occurred to me and I had another somewhat obscure idea in that 
regard. How wrong would it be to use the anchor part of the URI to refer to 
an entry in a feed the same way you can point to a particular element on an 
html page? That way you wouldn't need an extension attribute for the id 
anymore. Obviously some characters in the id would need to be escaped since 
it's a URI itself, but other than that I don't see any technical problems 
with the concept.

Regards
James


From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Dec 24 01:31:34 2005
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Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: todo: add language encoding information]
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Henry Story wrote:
> I think you have not quite grasped the point my graph was trying to
> make. Perhaps I did not explain myself clearly enough. The graph
> represents a feed with three entries A, B and C.
> B and C share the same id. C has an updated time stamp that is after
> B so C is an update of B.

If you went with my link+hreflang method, this could be handled with an 
additional date attribute in the link, where the date signified the time at 
which the translation was valid. For example:

<entry>
  <id>tag:eg.com,2005:/en/atom03</id>
  <link hreflang="fr" x:id="tag:eg.com,200erver or Atom API
> without explicitly coding support for each one. It is quite likely
> that some implementations will fail to preserve the namespaced
> attribute and forward on a corrupted link element without it.

That had occurred to me and I had another somewhat obscure idea in that 
regard. How wrong would it be to use the anchor part of the URI to refer to 
an entry in a feed the same way you can point to a particular element on an 
html page? That way you wouldn't need an extension attribute for the id 
anymore. Obviously some characters in the id would need to be escaped since 
it's a URI itself, but other than that I don't see any technical problems 
with the concept.

Regards
James


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Henry Story wrote:
> I think you have not quite grasped the point my graph was trying to
> make. Perhaps I did not explain myself clearly enough. The graph
> represents a feed with three entries A, B and C.
> B and C share the same id. C has an updated time stamp that is after
> B so C is an update of B.

If you went with my link+hreflang method, this could be handled with an 
additional date attribute in the link, where the date signified the time at 
which the translation was valid. For example:

<entry>
  <id>tag:eg.com,2005:/en/atom03</id>
  <link hreflang="fr" x:id="tag:eg.com,2005:/fr/atom03" 
x:updated="2005-11-15T18:30:02Z"/>
</entry>
<entry>
  <id>tag:eg.com,2005:/fr/atom03</id>
  <updated>2005-11-13T18:30:02Z</updated>
  <link />
</entry>
<entry>
  <id>tag:eg.com,2005:/fr/atom03</id>
  <updated>2005-11-15T18:30:02Z</updated>
  <link />
</entry>

I've left off the obvious elements and attributes for brevity, but you get 
the idea.

Regards
James






5:/fr/atom03" 
x:updated="2005-11-15T18:30:02Z"/>
</entry>
<entry>
  <id>tag:eg.com,2005:/fr/atom03</id>
  <updated>2005-11-13T18:30:02Z</updated>
  <link />
</entry>
<entry>
  <id>tag:eg.com,2005:/fr/atom03</id>
  <updated>2005-11-15T18:30:02Z</updated>
  <link />
</entry>

I've left off the obvious elements and attributes for brevity, but you get 
the idea.

Regards
James






