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From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
Subject: Re: todo: add language encoding information
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 10:14:12 +0100
To: Eric Scheid <eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au>
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On 1 Feb 2006, at 02:10, Eric Scheid wrote:

>
> On 31/1/06 1:27 PM, "James Holderness" <j4_james@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Actually I was thinking just a regular href and type. For example:
>>
>> <link type="application/atom+xml"
>> href="http://mydomain.com/feed"
>> hreflang="fr"
>> x:id="french_entry_id"
>> x:updated="2005-11-15T18:30:02X" />
>>
>> I'm not sure how valid that is considering a client that didn't  
>> understand
>> this extension would consider the full feed to be an alternative  
>> for that
>> one particular entry which doesn't seem right.
>
> Any reason that application/atom+xml document couldn't be an Atom  
> Entry
> Document, apart from the current lack of reader/browser support? It  
> could
> also then include the links necessary to subscribe to the specific  
> language
> feed.

I think that was one of James' original suggestions. It seems like  
one good solution. The only problem is that it forces people to have  
Entry Documents.

I am just writing up a document listing all the different ways one  
can solve this problem...

>
> e.




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From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
Subject: Re: todo: add language encoding information
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 16:07:23 +0100
To: James Holderness <j4_james@hotmail.com>
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Thanks for the reminder. I had not completely swapped in the earlier =20
parts of the thread.

1. Content translation
-----------------------

With the  hreflang pointing to the alternate content inside the entry

     <entry>
        <title>Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok</title>
        <link href=3D"http://example.org/2003/12/13/atom03"/>
        <link href=3D"http://example.org/2003/12/13/atom03/fr" =20
hreflang=3D"fr"/>
        <id>urn:uuid:1225c695-cfb8-4ebb-aaaa-80da344efa6a</id>
        <updated>2003-12-13T18:30:02Z</updated>
        <summary>Some text.</summary>
      </entry>

we get the ability to point to any number of different language =20
versions of the same document.
But this does not help the user who would like to find the =20
translation of the metadata in his language.

2. Metadata translations
------------------------

For translation of metadata (title, subtitle, summary and content are =20
the ones that would be affected - any others?), there are a number of =20
solutions:

2.1 Feed translations.
---------------------

	As James Holderness points out below one can have the feed that the =20
entry is contained in  point to a feed that contains the translated =20
metadata feed. There was some discussion there about the best way to =20
do that (self or alternate, if I recall correctly) but it is clear =20
that there should be no difficulty there.

	One problem here is how to tell which entries in one feed are =20
translations of which entries in the other.

  	a- One could simply find this out by giving the entries in both =20
feeds that are translations of each other the same id. In web =20
architecture terms the entries could be seen as different language =20
representations of the resource named by the id. [[ but see problem =20
with SHOULD restriction below ]].
	b- Otherwise one needs to be able to create translations (alternate =20
language) link relations from entries to entries across feeds.


2.2. Entry Translations
-----------------------

   As Simon Phipps pointed out, for small players, translations are =20
expensive. The creator of an entry may for example only have time to =20
translate the metadata for a few of the entries for which he can see =20
this to be of value. He may not even wish to translate the content, =20
leaving that for someone else with a little more time perhaps to do. =20
So we could have french metadata for content that is only available =20
in english (but that may later become available in french).

    So here it seems that there is at least one use case requirement =20
for having some way to tell that two entries in the same feed are =20
translations of one another. Following the logic of 2.1 there should =20
be 2 ways of doing this:

	a- Simply publish the two entries with the same id. Here the two =20
entries are seen as two different language versions of the resource =20
named by the id.
	b- We need to be able to create a translations (alternate language) =20
link relation between two entries with different ids in the same feed.

Now solution (a) does not work in this situation because of the =20
famous SHOULD level restrictions on when two entries can appear in a =20
feed.

[[
   If multiple atom:entry elements with the same atom:id value appear in
    an Atom Feed Document, they represent the same entry.  Their
    atom:updated timestamps SHOULD be different.
]]

And the Swiss case shows that one may be obliged to publish two =20
different language versions
simultaneously. But perhaps this is why we don't have a MUST level =20
restriction, but only a SHOULD. And perhaps it really is permissible =20
to have different language representations of the same entry id.

Even then we may still want some way to specify that two entries are =20
metadata translations of each other (eTranslations in the graph). =20
Perhaps someone wants to translate an entry of mine, but does not =20
want to use the same entry id. They would then still want a way to =20
specify the relation between the two ids. (note that in RDF one could =20
solve this by saying that the two ids are same-as each other, and =20
fall back to case (a)).


HOWTO
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

So how can we specify that two entries are translations of each other?

0. Entries have same id
-----------------------

If the two entries have the same id yet have different language =20
settings, then when we come across both we should guess that these =20
two represent the same thing.
	+ it would mean that an aggregator that had found one entry would =20
know he need not ping his user to let them know about the new version =20
in a different language.
	- this does not help find a different language entry when one finds one

The biggest problem is finding a way to point from one entry to =20
another. All entries have ids, but these don't tell us where we can =20
get information about them. An atom id is usually not dereferenceable.

Also it is not clear that it would be understood that the new =20
representation in a different language is not just meant to be a =20
replacement of the old one. (See SHOULD level restriction mentioned =20
above). [[ There needs to be a debate as to whether multilingual =20
representations of an entry can exist simultaneously. Ie. is this a =20
special case where SHOULD rule can be broken? ]]

1. give entries urls
--------------------

When entries have urls then it is easy to link to them.
Here is an example:

<feed>
	...
	<entry>
		<link rel=3D"self" type=3D"application/atom+xml" href=3D"entries/en/=20
e1.atom"/>
                 <title>Atom-Powered Robots Run Amok</title>
                 <link type=3D"application/atom+xml"
                       hreflang=3D"fr"
                       href=3D"entries/fr/e1.atom"/>
                 <id>tag:eg.com,2005/en/atom03</id>
                 <updated>2003-12-13T18:30:02Z</updated>
                 <summary>Some text.</summary>
		...
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<link rel=3D"self" type=3D"documents/atom+xml" href=3D"entries/fr/e1.at=
om"/>
                 <title>Robots Atomiques se r=E9voltent</title>
                 <link href=3D"http://example.org/2003/12/13/atom03"/>
                 <link type=3D"application/atom+xml"
                       hreflang=3D"en"
                       href=3D"entries/en/e1.atom"/>
                 <id>tag:eg.com,2005/fr/atom03</id>
                 <updated>2003-12-13T18:30:02Z</updated>
                 <summary>Some text.</summary>
		...
	</entry>

</feed>

The disadvantage is that one has to place entries at well known =20
locations for this to work correctly, which creates duplication of =20
entries (one in the feed, and one on the hard drive). The protocol =20
may force this issue anyway. (does the atom protocol force entries to =20
have urls, so they can be GET, PUT, and DELETEed?)



2. if entries do not have URLs
------------------------------

Then one can only point to entries by their id. But since ids are not =20
dereferenceable, this is not very helpful. It would tell the reader =20
of the entry that this is an entry whose metadata has an alternate =20
language version, and so it would/could reduce the number of alterts =20
a client would need to send out (he has already seen the alternate =20
entry for example).

   this would require a new link type

   <link rel=3D"translate" hreflang=3D"en" href=3D"tag:eg.com,2005/en/ato=
m03">

where the href points to the id of the translated entry. I suppose =20
one would assume that at the
time of the entry update the relations was true.

Now if one wanted to find the feed in which the entry with that id =20
had appeared one would have to add an extension to the link such as =20
xxx:feedhref=3D"http://example.org/feed.atom"


<link rel=3D"translate"
       hreflang=3D"en"
       href=3D"tag:eg.com,2005/en/atom03"
       xxx:feedhref=3D"http://example.org/feed.atom">


where xxx:feedhref would point to a feed document that forms part of =20
a next, prev chain of such documents that constitute a feed, in which =20
the other language version entry could be found (among other places)



QUICK CONCLUSION
----------------

The simplest and least powerful solution of simply having entries =20
with the same id but in different languages is (very probably) not =20
possible because of the SHOULD restriction in the spec. This makes it =20
impossible for one to just state that feeds are translations of each =20
other, as it would not help one work out which entries in one feed =20
were translations of which entries in the other feed.

We need a link relation to relate entries. The link alternate =20
pointing to an entry would work best if entries had urls that were =20
dereferenceable.

Otherwise one needs to create new "translation" link relation that =20
points to an entry id in its href. This would not be very helpful in =20
finding the translated entry (unless of course the id of an entry was =20
the same place as that at which it could be GET, PUT, POST and DELETEd)


Henry Story

PS. Not sure what I should do with the above. Perhaps write it up =20
somehow?


On 31 Jan 2006, at 02:17, James Holderness wrote:

>
> Henry Story wrote:
>> Just re-reading your mail I think you make a good point that perhaps
>> "translation" is the wrong word to use. We would like something more
>> abstract such as "otherLanguageVersion". This made me think that the
>> word we want is "alternate". And then looking at the spec again I
>> found the following:
>>
>> [[
>> 4.2.7.4.  The "hreflang" Attribute
>
> This was the first thing I suggested...
>
> "If you want to link the various translations together you can add =20
> one or more link elements at the top of the feed with =20
> rel=3D"alternate" and hreflang set to the language of the alternate =20
> feed. If you're feeling really enthusiastic you can include =20
> alternate links pointing to the translated html pages for each =20
> entry too." [1]
>
> Regards
> James
>
> [1] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg17609.html





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[CC'ing atom-syntax]

2006/2/1, David Powell <djpowell@djpowell.net>:
>
> Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 6:21:12 AM, James M Snell wrote:
>
> > Entries in an Atom feed can share the same atom:id but their
> > atom:updated values should be different.
>
> To be precise, it is "Entries in an Atom Feed Document" not "Entries
> in an Atom feed".
>
> I really really dislike that rule, and don't understand how it was
> ever accepted, and personally I would be tempted to ignore it.

IIRC, it was to allow a feed listing "revisions" of the same entry:
same id, different "updated" values.

--
Thomas Broyer




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Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 3:20:23 PM, Thomas Broyer wrote:

> [CC'ing atom-syntax]

> 2006/2/1, David Powell <djpowell@djpowell.net>:
>>
>> Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 6:21:12 AM, James M Snell wrote:
>>
>> > Entries in an Atom feed can share the same atom:id but their
>> > atom:updated values should be different.
>>
>> To be precise, it is "Entries in an Atom Feed Document" not "Entries
>> in an Atom feed".
>>
>> I really really dislike that rule, and don't understand how it was
>> ever accepted, and personally I would be tempted to ignore it.

> IIRC, it was to allow a feed listing "revisions" of the same entry:
> same id, different "updated" values.

I don't have a problem with allowing multiple revisions with the same
atom:id in a single document at all; I think that is a good thing.

On the contrary, I have a problem with preventing multiple revisions
from having the same atom:updated value. It subverts the intent of
atom:updated being a subjective element, and it puts the feed compiler
in an impossible situation. Nothing prohibits the entry author from
producing two different instances with the same atom:updated value,
but given this valid situation, the feed compiler is forced to
silently lose data.

And for what purpose? The restriction is useless anyway. If it is
trying to provide a strict ordering of instances within a feed, it
fails, because the restriction only applies within a feed document.
Two seperate polls of a feed document can still produce two different
instances with the same updated value.

It also prevents synchronization applications, such as Microsoft's SSE
from introducing a more discerning date/revision extension, because
nothing is allowed to be more discerning than atom:updated, even
though the specification admits that:

  "not all modifications necessarily result in a changed atom:updated
  value"


-- 
Dave




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[on atom-syntax only, no need to CC atom-protocol]

2006/2/1, David Powell <djpowell@djpowell.net>:
>
> Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 3:20:23 PM, Thomas Broyer wrote:
> >
> > IIRC, it was to allow a feed listing "revisions" of the same entry:
> > same id, different "updated" values.
>
> I don't have a problem with allowing multiple revisions with the same
> atom:id in a single document at all; I think that is a good thing.
>
> On the contrary, I have a problem with preventing multiple revisions
> from having the same atom:updated value. It subverts the intent of
> atom:updated being a subjective element, and it puts the feed compiler
> in an impossible situation. Nothing prohibits the entry author from
> producing two different instances with the same atom:updated value,
> but given this valid situation, the feed compiler is forced to
> silently lose data.
[=85]
> It also prevents synchronization applications, such as Microsoft's SSE
> from introducing a more discerning date/revision extension, because
> nothing is allowed to be more discerning than atom:updated, even
> though the specification admits that:
>
>   "not all modifications necessarily result in a changed atom:updated
>   value"

Totally agree.

You should add it to http://intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/RFC4287Errata

--
Thomas Broyer




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Subject: Re: Browser behaviour
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* John Panzer <jpanzer@aol.net> [2006-01-30 22:05]:
>This means that users might possibly end up subscribing to
>something of type application/xml if they copy and paste URL
>#3... but we could also make this client dependent so that, for
>example, everything other than known web browsers get
>application/atom+xml.

How about this simple rule? If the request for a feed has a
referrer, which aggregator presumably[1] never do, then serve as
`application/xml` with all cache control headers set to expire
immediately; otherwise, send as `application/xhtml+xml`. (Expiry
prevents intermediaries from caching it with the wrong MIME
type.)


[1] My server logs confirm this assumption for at least 20
different popular aggregators.

Regards,
-- 
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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* David Powell <djpowell@djpowell.net> [2006-02-01 17:10]:
>On the contrary, I have a problem with preventing multiple
>revisions from having the same atom:updated value.

But then you have no idea which revision will be picked by
clients that try to show the latest one, which to me sounds like
it fulfills the criteria for a potential interop problem, which
is exactly what =E2=80=9CSHOULD=E2=80=9D is about, so I think this was th=
e right
choice.

Regards,
--=20
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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A. Pagaltzis wrote on 2/1/2006, 1:39 PM:

 >
 > * John Panzer <jpanzer@aol.net> [2006-01-30 22:05]:
 > >This means that users might possibly end up subscribing to
 > >something of type application/xml if they copy and paste URL
 > >#3... but we could also make this client dependent so that, for
 > >example, everything other than known web browsers get
 > >application/atom+xml.
 >
 > How about this simple rule? If the request for a feed has a
 > referrer, which aggregator presumably[1] never do, then serve as
 > `application/xml` with all cache control headers set to expire
 > immediately; otherwise, send as `application/xhtml+xml`. (Expiry
 > prevents intermediaries from caching it with the wrong MIME
 > type.)

Does this work for bookmarks?  (Thinking here especially of IE bookmarks 
saved to a desktop and double-clicked to start the browser...)

-- 
John Panzer
Sr. Technical Manager
http://journals.aol.com/panzerjohn/abstractioneer





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* John Panzer <jpanzer@aol.net> [2006-02-01 23:45]:
> > How about this simple rule? If the request for a feed has a
> > referrer, which aggregator presumably[1] never do, then serve
> > as `application/xml` [snip]
>
>Does this work for bookmarks?  (Thinking here especially of IE
>bookmarks saved to a desktop and double-clicked to start the
>browser...)

Hmm, that=E2=80=99s a catch. Probably not=E2=80=A6

Regards,
--=20
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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On 2/1/06, A. Pagaltzis <pagaltzis@gmx.de> wrote:

> How about this simple rule? If the request for a feed has a
> referrer, which aggregator presumably[1] never do, then serve as
> `application/xml` with all cache control headers set to expire
> immediately; otherwise, send as `application/xhtml+xml`. (Expiry
> prevents intermediaries from caching it with the wrong MIME
> type.)
>
>
> [1] My server logs confirm this assumption for at least 20
> different popular aggregators.

Cunning, but the result of presuming aggregators "never do" might mean
aggregators never can, and referrer refs. from aggregators may well be
useful.

Cheers,
Danny.

--

http://dannyayers.com




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On 2/1/06, A. Pagaltzis <pagaltzis@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> * David Powell <djpowell@djpowell.net> [2006-02-01 17:10]:
> >On the contrary, I have a problem with preventing multiple
> >revisions from having the same atom:updated value.
>
> But then you have no idea which revision will be picked by
> clients that try to show the latest one, which to me sounds like
> it fulfills the criteria for a potential interop problem, which
> is exactly what "SHOULD" is about, so I think this was the right
> choice.

It's not straightforward, this came up pretty quickly in the Atom/OWL
efforts. As Bill said, it's a composite key. In RDF/OWL that has so
far demanded a rule* - somewhat less convenient than having a single
URI as id. The question is, from what is the composite key formed? id
certainly, updated too - but is same id+updated enough? What if other
parts of the entry differ? Different xml:lang even...same entry or
different?

*see also : http://esw.w3.org/topic/CIFP

Cheers,
Danny.



--

http://dannyayers.com




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On 2/2/06 12:51 PM, "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de> wrote:

> Then again, I can=B9t think of interesting
> information to put in the referrer of regular feed poll requests,
> but maybe my imagination is just too limited here.

Who said the aggregator would be limited to only doing regular feed polls=
?

My aggregator of choice lets me browse the links in entries, including an=
y
atom:links ... no reason it couldn't thus fetch a linked resource, and
specify the current feed as the referrer.

e.





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* Eric Scheid <eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au> [2006-02-02 03:20]:
>My aggregator of choice lets me browse the links in entries,
>including any atom:links ... no reason it couldn't thus fetch a
>linked resource, and specify the current feed as the referrer.

How many of those point to Atom feed documents instead of
elsewhere on the web?

What harm would it do if these were served to your aggregator as
`application/xml`?

Regards,
-- 
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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* Danny Ayers <danny.ayers@gmail.com> [2006-02-02 02:10]:
>Cunning, but the result of presuming aggregators "never do"
>might mean aggregators never can, and referrer refs. from
>aggregators may well be useful.

Well, an aggregator sending a referrer would receive the feed as
`application/xml` =E2=80=93 it=E2=80=99s not like it wouldn=E2=80=99t wor=
k, just
suboptimally so. Then again, I can=E2=80=99t think of interesting
information to put in the referrer of regular feed poll requests,
but maybe my imagination is just too limited here.

(I do live under the pleasant illusion that this hackery-pokery
is a stopgap measure that will only be necessary for a relatively
short while until feeds are ubiquitous and the user-side
infrastructure all Just Works. Presumably then we will no longer
need to worry about what to do about users seeing raw XML and
aggregators will be able to send referrers peacefully=E2=80=A6)

Regards,
--=20
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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On 2 Feb 2006, at 02:09, Danny Ayers wrote:

>
> On 2/1/06, A. Pagaltzis <pagaltzis@gmx.de> wrote:
>>
>> * David Powell <djpowell@djpowell.net> [2006-02-01 17:10]:
>>> On the contrary, I have a problem with preventing multiple
>>> revisions from having the same atom:updated value.
>>
>> But then you have no idea which revision will be picked by
>> clients that try to show the latest one, which to me sounds like
>> it fulfills the criteria for a potential interop problem, which
>> is exactly what "SHOULD" is about, so I think this was the right
>> choice.

yes. One could of course have also allowed different language  
versions of an entry at the same time for example. But then things  
would probably have gotten a lot more complicated in the protocol.

> It's not straightforward, this came up pretty quickly in the Atom/OWL
> efforts. As Bill said, it's a composite key.

yes. Though this is very much true for the web on the whole. A url  
names a thing
but there may be many representations for that thing, even at the  
same time. So for a given URL there can be any number of different  
language dependent representations, or even different mime type  
representations. If you want to refer to the representations instead  
of the resource you do usually need a composite key. You are not  
usually aware of this composite key nature of the web, as you usually  
use defaults: the default representation is returned as the  
representation given to you at the time you ask for it, in the  
default language, for the default mime type.

An atom Entry is a representation of the resource named by the id.  
This id can only have representations that vary along the axis of  
time it seems.

> In RDF/OWL that has so far demanded a rule* - somewhat less  
> convenient than having a single
> URI as id.

The id relation is functional. That is an entry can only have one id.

[ a :Entry;
   :id <tag:eg.com,2/t1>;
   :updated "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:dateTime;
   :title "an example"
] .

but the same feed can have another anonymous :Entry with the same id.

[ a :Entry;
   :id <tag:eg.com,2/t1>;
   :updated "2005-08-24T09:32:04Z"^^xsd:dateTime;
   :title "an fixed example"
]

The inverse of :id is :version so that we could rewrite the above  
triples as

<tag:eg.com,2/t1> :version [ a :Entry
                              :updated  
"2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:dateTime;
                              :title "an example" ];
                   :version [ a :Entry
                              :updated  
"2005-08-24T09:32:04Z"^^xsd:dateTime;
                              :title "a fixed example" ] .

which shows more clearly the relation between the resource and its 2  
representations.

Now the question is when we find two entries with the same id and the  
same updated time stamp are they the same entry? This is where the  
CIFP's Danny metnioned enter into play.

And this is where I am unsure in atom-owl currently. My feeling is  
that deep down that is what all of us believe.

> The question is, from what is the composite key formed? id
> certainly, updated too - but is same id+updated enough? What if other
> parts of the entry differ? Different xml:lang even...same entry or
> different?

or is it only the case in one feed document?


> *see also : http://esw.w3.org/topic/CIFP
>
> Cheers,
> Danny.
>
>
>
> --
>
> http://dannyayers.com




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To: "Henry Story" <henry.story@bblfish.net>,
        "Danny Ayers" <danny.ayers@gmail.com>
Cc: "Atom Syntax" <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: Re: More on atom:id handling
References: <BD0EBA60-1D62-4E22-948F-3B9BBD70C184@Sun.COM> <43E05358.6060906@gmail.com> <793428451.20060201144729@djpowell.net> <a9699fd20602010720j75b85d79t@mail.gmail.com> <152407972.20060201160138@djpowell.net> <20060201214441.GX2575@klangraum> <1f2ed5cd0602011709n58c02472v1fd61291a6b5151b@mail.gmail.com> <C29AE63A-C535-4A9F-9310-3377B46F381D@bblfish.net>
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On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 17:13:35 +0530, Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>  
wrote:

>
>
> On 2 Feb 2006, at 02:09, Danny Ayers wrote:
>
>>
>> On 2/1/06, A. Pagaltzis <pagaltzis@gmx.de> wrote:
>>>
>>> * David Powell <djpowell@djpowell.net> [2006-02-01 17:10]:
>>>> On the contrary, I have a problem with preventing multiple
>>>> revisions from having the same atom:updated value.
>>>
>>> But then you have no idea which revision will be picked by
>>> clients that try to show the latest one, which to me sounds like
>>> it fulfills the criteria for a potential interop problem, which
>>> is exactly what "SHOULD" is about, so I think this was the right
>>> choice.
>
> yes. One could of course have also allowed different language versions  
> of an entry at the same time for example. But then things would probably  
> have gotten a lot more complicated in the protocol.
>
>> It's not straightforward, this came up pretty quickly in the Atom/OWL
>> efforts. As Bill said, it's a composite key.
>
> yes. Though this is very much true for the web on the whole. A url names  
> a thing
> but there may be many representations for that thing, even at the same  
> time. So for a given URL there can be any number of different language  
> dependent representations, or even different mime type representations.  
> If you want to refer to the representations instead of the resource you  
> do usually need a composite key. You are not usually aware of this  
> composite key nature of the web, as you usually use defaults: the  
> default representation is returned as the representation given to you at  
> the time you ask for it, in the default language, for the default mime  
> type.
>
> An atom Entry is a representation of the resource named by the id. This  
> id can only have representations that vary along the axis of time it  
> seems.
>
>> In RDF/OWL that has so far demanded a rule* - somewhat less convenient  
>> than having a single
>> URI as id.
>
> The id relation is functional. That is an entry can only have one id.
>
> [ a :Entry;
>    :id <tag:eg.com,2/t1>;
>    :updated "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:dateTime;
>    :title "an example"
> ] .
>
> but the same feed can have another anonymous :Entry with the same id.
>
> [ a :Entry;
>    :id <tag:eg.com,2/t1>;
>    :updated "2005-08-24T09:32:04Z"^^xsd:dateTime;
>    :title "an fixed example"
> ]
>
> The inverse of :id is :version so that we could rewrite the above  
> triples as
>
> <tag:eg.com,2/t1> :version [ a :Entry
>                               :updated  
> "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z"^^xsd:dateTime;
>                               :title "an example" ];
>                    :version [ a :Entry
>                               :updated  
> "2005-08-24T09:32:04Z"^^xsd:dateTime;
>                               :title "a fixed example" ] .
>
> which shows more clearly the relation between the resource and its 2  
> representations.
>
> Now the question is when we find two entries with the same id and the  
> same updated time stamp are they the same entry? This is where the  
> CIFP's Danny metnioned enter into play.
>
> And this is where I am unsure in atom-owl currently. My feeling is that  
> deep down that is what all of us believe.
>
>> The question is, from what is the composite key formed? id
>> certainly, updated too - but is same id+updated enough? What if other
>> parts of the entry differ? Different xml:lang even...same entry or
>> different?
>
> or is it only the case in one feed document?
>
>
>> *see also : http://esw.w3.org/topic/CIFP
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Danny.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> http://dannyayers.com
>





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Cc: "manojpec@gmail.com" <manojpec@gmail.com>
To: atom-syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: Re:  I-D ACTION:draft-manoj-cachecontrol-00.txt : Call for Comments
Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 15:56:01 +0530
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Hello friends,

All your comments are welcome on my draft below.

Thanks and Regards
Manoj


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts  
directories.


Title: An Extension to Cache-Control, HTTP/1.1 for group caching
Author(s): G. Manoj
Filename: draft-manoj-cachecontrol-00.txt
Pages: 7
Date: 2006-1-17

    The Cache-Control general-header field of HTTP/1.1 [1] is used to
    specify directives that must be obeyed by all caching mechanisms
    along the request/response chain. This document details an extension
    to the cache-control header to enable caching of resources for
    dynamic sets of users who are grouped under certain attributes. Also
    this document specifies user-defined header extensions of HTTP/1.1
    [1], which allow these clients to be served from the group caches.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-manoj-cachecontrol-00.txt

To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to
i-d-announce-request at ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of  
the message.
You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce
to change your subscription settings.


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the  
username
"anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in,
type "cd internet-drafts" and then
"get draft-manoj-cachecontrol-00.txt".

A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
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or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt


Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.

Send a message to:
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From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Feb 09 16:26:25 2006
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Hi Manoj,

It might be more appropriate to send this to the HTTP list;
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/

Also, out of curiosity, is this a Network Appliance-sponsored draft,  
or your own effort? I.e., is this something that might make its way  
into NetCache?

Cheers,


On 2006/02/08, at 2:26 AM, Manoj wrote:

>
> Hello friends,
>
> All your comments are welcome on my draft below.
>
> Thanks and Regards
> Manoj
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> -------
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts  
> directories.
>
>
> Title: An Extension to Cache-Control, HTTP/1.1 for group caching
> Author(s): G. Manoj
> Filename: draft-manoj-cachecontrol-00.txt
> Pages: 7
> Date: 2006-1-17
>
>    The Cache-Control general-header field of HTTP/1.1 [1] is used to
>    specify directives that must be obeyed by all caching mechanisms
>    along the request/response chain. This document details an  
> extension
>    to the cache-control header to enable caching of resources for
>    dynamic sets of users who are grouped under certain attributes.  
> Also
>    this document specifies user-defined header extensions of HTTP/1.1
>    [1], which allow these clients to be served from the group caches.
>
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-manoj-cachecontrol-00.txt
>
> To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to
> i-d-announce-request at ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the  
> body of the message.
> You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce
> to change your subscription settings.
>
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the  
> username
> "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in,
> type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> "get draft-manoj-cachecontrol-00.txt".
>
> A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>
>
> Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
>
> Send a message to:
> mailserv at ietf.org.
> In the body type:
> "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-manoj-cachecontrol-00.txt".
>
> NOTE:The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
> MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
> feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
> command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
> a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail readers
> exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
> "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
> up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
> how to manipulate these messages.
>
>
> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
> Internet-Draft.
>
>


--
Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/




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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I recall a thread not too long ago about changes to the Atom schema
and Uche has pointed out some deficiencies

  http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2006-02-06/Small_fix_

I'd be happy to tweak the schema and try to address these bugs, but
does the group have any desire to see a "WG endorsed" set of fixes
published? And if it does, where should they be published?

                                        Be seeing you,
                                          norm

=2D-=20
Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com> | A man may by custom fortify himself
http://nwalsh.com/            | against pain, shame, and suchlike
                              | accidents; but as to death, we can
                              | experience it but once, and are all
                              | apprentices when we come to it.--
                              | Montaigne

--=-=-=
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From: "Scott Hollenbeck" <sah@428cobrajet.net>
To: "'Norman Walsh'" <ndw@nwalsh.com>, "'Atom Syntax'" <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: RE: Atom syndication schema
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:21:30 -0500
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Norman Walsh [mailto:ndw@nwalsh.com] 
> Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 1:08 PM
> To: Atom Syntax
> Subject: Atom syndication schema
> 
> I recall a thread not too long ago about changes to the Atom 
> schema and Uche has pointed out some deficiencies
> 
>   http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2006-02-06/Small_fix_
> 
> I'd be happy to tweak the schema and try to address these 
> bugs, but does the group have any desire to see a "WG 
> endorsed" set of fixes published? And if it does, where 
> should they be published?

Errors in RFCs can be captured as errata by sending a note to the RFC
Editor:

http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata.html

The idea is that they should eventually get taken care of by an update to
the RFC.

-Scott-




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* Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com> [2006-02-10 19:20]:
>does the group have any desire to see a "WG endorsed" set of
>fixes published?

+1, FWIC.

Regards,
-- 
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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Subject: Re: More on atom:id handling
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= <asbjorn@tigerstaden.no>
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On Wed, 01 Feb 2006 17:01:38 +0100, David Powell <djpowell@djpowell.net> =
=20
wrote:

> On the contrary, I have a problem with preventing multiple revisions
> from having the same atom:updated value. It subverts the intent of
> atom:updated being a subjective element, and it puts the feed compiler
> in an impossible situation. Nothing prohibits the entry author from
> producing two different instances with the same atom:updated value,
> but given this valid situation, the feed compiler is forced to
> silently lose data.

This goes way back to the days we discussed this, and different ways of =20
signaling "change" to the user. I was always for the more automatic, =20
strict and professional publishing-centric way of doing it, with =20
atom:modified which got changed with every revision of the entry, no =20
matter how significant.

This didn't fit the blogging community too well, though, so the conclusio=
n =20
came to something less strict and thus we have atom:updated. I don't thin=
k =20
there's anything constructive to get out from surfacing that discussion =20
again, but I might of course be wrong.

--=20
Asbj=F8rn Ulsberg     -=3D|=3D-    http://virtuelvis.com/quark/
=ABHe's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away=BB




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Norman Walsh wrote:
> I recall a thread not too long ago about changes to the Atom schema
> and Uche has pointed out some deficiencies
>
>   http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2006-02-06/Small_fix_
>
> I'd be happy to tweak the schema and try to address these bugs, but
> does the group have any desire to see a "WG endorsed" set of fixes
> published? And if it does, where should they be published?
>   

I didn't put my thoughts through the RFC errata process because the main
bug I saw was in the non-normative schema, and anyway I don't know that
there is a full RELAX NG file corresponding to the full RFC (as opposed
to the revision 11 I-D).  I figured I might as well host such an RNG,
and while at it I might as well bring the RNG a bit more in line with
the spec wording.  I didn't know whether that was something that could
be considered a formal erratum.

There other things I brought up in my Weblog I do believe are nits in
Atom, but I don't think they rise to the level of actual errata.

If there is some aspect of my comments that folks do think is worthy of
a formal erratum, let me know and I'll do what I can to submit it.


-- 
Uche Ogbuji                               Fourthought, Inc.
http://uche.ogbuji.net                    http://fourthought.com
http://copia.ogbuji.net                   http://4Suite.org
Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/




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From: "James Yenne" <jamesy@softwareme.com>
To: <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: atom:updated handling
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:07:35 -0800
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_00F5_01C63249.F07E2C80
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I'm using the feedvalidtor.org to validate a feed with entries containing
atom:updated that may have the same datetime, although different atom:id.
The validator complains that two entries cannot have the same value for
atom:updated. I generate these feeds and the generator uses the current
datetime, which may be exactly the same. I don't understand why the
validator should care about these updated values from different entries per
atom:id - these are totally unrelated entries.   Is the validator wrong?  It
seems that otherwise I have to play tricks to make these entries have
different updated within the feed.
 
I'm not sure how this relates to the thread "More on atom:id handling"
 
Thanks,
James

------=_NextPart_000_00F5_01C63249.F07E2C80
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	charset="us-ascii"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.5296.0" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>I'm using =
the=20
feedvalidtor.org to validate a feed with entries containing atom:updated =
that=20
may have the same datetime, although different atom:id. The validator =
complains=20
that two entries cannot have the same value for atom:updated. I generate =
these=20
feeds and the generator uses the current datetime, which may be exactly =
the=20
same. I don't understand why the validator should care about these=20
updated&nbsp;<SPAN class=3D814024823-15022006>values </SPAN>from =
different entries=20
per atom:id<SPAN class=3D814024823-15022006> - these are totally =
unrelated=20
entries<SPAN class=3D186220300-16022006><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff>.&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></SPAN>&nbsp;&nbsp;<SPAN=20
class=3D814024823-15022006>Is the validator wrong?&nbsp; </SPAN>It seems =
that=20
otherwise I have to play tricks to make these&nbsp;<SPAN=20
class=3D814024823-15022006>entries have </SPAN>different&nbsp;<SPAN=20
class=3D814024823-15022006>updated </SPAN>within the feed<SPAN=20
class=3D814024823-15022006>.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>I'm not sure how this relates to=20
the&nbsp;<SPAN class=3D814024823-15022006>thread </SPAN>"More on atom:id =

handling"</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Thanks,<BR>James</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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--On February 15, 2006 4:07:35 PM -0800 James Yenne <jamesy@softwareme.com> wrote:
>
> I'm using the feedvalidtor.org to validate a feed with entries containing
> atom:updated that may have the same datetime, although different atom:id.
> The validator complains that two entries cannot have the same value for
> atom:updated.

I got the same spurious warning. My feed is search results, so it is
perfectly OK for them to have the same atom:updated.

It is OK for the validator to point this out, but it should be informational,
not a warning.

wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Software Architect, Autonomy




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I personally think that the feedvalidator is being too anal about
updated handling.  Entries with the same atom:id value MUST have
different updated values, but the spec says nothing about entries with
different atom:id's.

- James

James Yenne wrote:
> I'm using the feedvalidtor.org to validate a feed with entries
> containing atom:updated that may have the same datetime, although
> different atom:id. The validator complains that two entries cannot have
> the same value for atom:updated. I generate these feeds and the
> generator uses the current datetime, which may be exactly the same. I
> don't understand why the validator should care about these
> updated values from different entries per atom:id - these are totally
> unrelated entries.   Is the validator wrong?  It seems that otherwise I
> have to play tricks to make these entries have different updated within
> the feed.
>  
> I'm not sure how this relates to the thread "More on atom:id handling"
>  
> Thanks,
> James




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From: Walter Underwood <wunder@autonomy.com>
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Subject: Re: atom:updated handling
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It doesn't hurt to point it out. It could catch some developer errors.
But it doesn't make an invalid feed. --wunder

--On February 15, 2006 4:25:35 PM -0800 James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> I personally think that the feedvalidator is being too anal about
> updated handling.  Entries with the same atom:id value MUST have
> different updated values, but the spec says nothing about entries with
> different atom:id's.
> 
> - James
> 
> James Yenne wrote:
>> I'm using the feedvalidtor.org to validate a feed with entries
>> containing atom:updated that may have the same datetime, although
>> different atom:id. The validator complains that two entries cannot have
>> the same value for atom:updated. I generate these feeds and the
>> generator uses the current datetime, which may be exactly the same. I
>> don't understand why the validator should care about these
>> updated values from different entries per atom:id - these are totally
>> unrelated entries.   Is the validator wrong?  It seems that otherwise I
>> have to play tricks to make these entries have different updated within
>> the feed.
>>  
>> I'm not sure how this relates to the thread "More on atom:id handling"
>>  
>> Thanks,
>> James
> 
> 



--
Walter Underwood
Principal Software Architect, Autonomy




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* Walter Underwood <wunder@autonomy.com> [2006-02-16 01:40]:
>It doesn't hurt to point it out. It could catch some developer
>errors. But it doesn't make an invalid feed. --wunder

The validator does not say the feed is invalid. It merely throws
a warning, saying the feed is valid but may cause problems for
some users.

I think that=E2=80=99s still too much =E2=80=93 it=E2=80=99s certainly no=
t on par with
other warnings for SHOULD-level requirements (f.ex., a feed
missing a `rel=3D"self"` link will validate with a warning).

Regards,
--=20
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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On 2/15/06, Walter Underwood <wunder@autonomy.com> wrote:
>
> It doesn't hurt to point it out. It could catch some developer errors.
> But it doesn't make an invalid feed. --wunder

Which is why the message you are given is found at
http://feedvalidator.org/docs/warning/DuplicateUpdated.html with the
accent on the */warning/*.

Patches that will make that more clear are welcome.

Phil Ringnalda




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Hi,

is anybody aware of ongoing activities to produce XML/HTML versions of 
RFC4287 based on the xml2rfc (rfc2629) XML format?

I'm fully aware that there currently probably is no XML version of the 
spec that matches RFC4287, as the AUTH48 changes done by the RFC Editor 
have been applied to a derived NROFF version. But clearly there has been 
an XML version of the latest draft (draft-ietf-atompub-format-11), so it 
shouldn't be impossible to update that one accordingly. And yes, I'm 
volunteering to do that work.

Best regards, Julian




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From: "Bob Wyman" <bob@wyman.us>
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Phil Ringnalda wrote:
> Patches that will make that more clear are welcome.
The warning message that Phil points to says in part: (at:
http://feedvalidator.org/docs/warning/DuplicateUpdated.html) 

"For example, it would be generally inappropriate for a publishing
 system to apply the same timestamp to several entries which were
 published during the course of a single day."

Of course, this leads one to wonder if it might be appropriate to apply the
same timestamp to several entries if they were published during the course
of multiple days...

It would make a great deal more sense to say something like: "It would not
be appropriate to apply the same timestamp to several entries unless they
were published simultaneously."

	bob wyman






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Subject: Re: atom:updated handling
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Bob Wyman wrote:
> Phil Ringnalda wrote:
> 
>>Patches that will make that more clear are welcome.
> 
> The warning message that Phil points to says in part: (at:
> http://feedvalidator.org/docs/warning/DuplicateUpdated.html) 
> 
> "For example, it would be generally inappropriate for a publishing
>  system to apply the same timestamp to several entries which were
>  published during the course of a single day."
> 
> Of course, this leads one to wonder if it might be appropriate to apply the
> same timestamp to several entries if they were published during the course
> of multiple days...
> 
> It would make a great deal more sense to say something like: "It would not
> be appropriate to apply the same timestamp to several entries unless they
> were published simultaneously."

As you might imagine, given the context of syndication, the Feed
Validator has the potential for being in the center of controversy.  One
of the reasons why it has avoided being such is that I try to rely
directly on the wording from the spec whenever possible.

http://www.atomenabled.org/developers/syndication/atom-format-spec.php#rfc.section.3.3

- Sam Ruby




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From: Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com>
To: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: atom:updated handling
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

/ Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net> was heard to say:
| Bob Wyman wrote:
|> Phil Ringnalda wrote:
|>=20
|>>Patches that will make that more clear are welcome.
|>=20
|> The warning message that Phil points to says in part: (at:
|> http://feedvalidator.org/docs/warning/DuplicateUpdated.html)=20
|>=20
|> "For example, it would be generally inappropriate for a publishing
|>  system to apply the same timestamp to several entries which were
|>  published during the course of a single day."
|>=20
|> Of course, this leads one to wonder if it might be appropriate to apply =
the
|> same timestamp to several entries if they were published during the cour=
se
|> of multiple days...
|>=20
|> It would make a great deal more sense to say something like: "It would n=
ot
|> be appropriate to apply the same timestamp to several entries unless they
|> were published simultaneously."
>
| As you might imagine, given the context of syndication, the Feed
| Validator has the potential for being in the center of controversy.  One
| of the reasons why it has avoided being such is that I try to rely
| directly on the wording from the spec whenever possible.
>
| http://www.atomenabled.org/developers/syndication/atom-format-spec.php#rf=
c.section.3.3

I think that's pretty good justification for the current text, but I'd
like to say that was surprised by that message when I got it.

The atom:updated dates on my essays come from the timestamp of my
Subversion commit so it is reasonable sometimes to have identical
atom:updated values.

I would have been less confused (though I was only momentarily
confused in any event) by something along the lines of what Phil
suggests.

                                        Be seeing you,
                                          norm

=2D-=20
Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com> | Being forced to write comments actually
http://nwalsh.com/            | improves code, because it is easier to
                              | fix a crock than to explain it.--G.
                              | Steele

--=-=-=
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.1 (GNU/Linux)

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=bV71
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--=-=-=--




From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Feb 22 13:40:49 2006
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Hi,

the IETF WebDAV working group finally has produced a draft for the 
revision of RFC2518 that we feel can be last-called in the working group 
-- see Cullen's announcement below.

At this point it would be great to get feedback from people who 
currently do not follow the WebDAV working group's mailing list, but who 
do have an interest in HTTP, authoring, and related areas.

The last-called draft is at 
<http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-webdav-rfc2518bis-14.txt>. 
Diffs between individual drafts can be found at 
<http://tools.ietf.org/wg/webdav/draft-ietf-webdav-rfc2518bis/>. Changes 
to RFC2518 are (hopefully completely) summarized in Appendix E (see 
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-webdav-rfc2518bis-14.txt#page-135>).

Discussion takes place on the WebDAV mailing list 
(<mailto:w3c-dist-auth@w3.org>), which may be joined by sending a 
message with subject "subscribe" to 
<mailto:w3c-dist-auth-request@w3.org>. Discussions of the WebDAV working 
group are archived at <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-dist-auth/>.

There's also a bug tracker at <http://ietf.cse.ucsc.edu:8080/bugzilla/>, 
which may be useful to find out whether a particular issue already has 
been raised. For new issues, please report them to the mailing list 
first, though.

(I am sending this announcement to various mailing lists, so you may get 
multiple copies. Apologies.)

Best regards, Julian


-------- Original Message --------
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 07:42:18 -0800
From: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@cisco.com>
To: WebDav <w3c-dist-auth@w3.org>


I am absolutely thrilled to be able to Working Group Last Call (WGLC)
draft-ietf-webdav-rfc2518bis. The WGLC will end on March 15, 2006.

I am aware of one complex open issue with this version of the draft. The 
use of ETAGs in the response to a HTTP PUT is not exactly clear in the 
HTTP spec and this has implications for WebDAV. Some folks are working 
on a draft to clarify this in HTTP. I'm sure this issue will be 
discussed during the Last Call.

On minor issues, Julian will be proposing new text for bug 143.

The "if header" section needs particularly careful review.

I would like to ask everyone to read this. We really need to get some 
fresh eyes reading this document. Did we get it right? Is there enough 
detail that you can implement it? Does this clarify previous 
interoperable problems?

Thank you,
Cullen

I'd like to take this moment to thank the several contributors that put 
in a ton of work to make this happen and to all the folks on the mailing 
list that put up with the roughly two thousand email posts from 
bugzilla. I really hope the volume of these will be reducing.






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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Atom Publishing Format and Protocol Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: The Atom Publishing Protocol
	Author(s)	: B. de Hora, J. Gregorio
	Filename	: draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-08.txt
	Pages		: 41
	Date		: 2006-2-22
	
The Atom Publishing Protocol (APP) is an application-level protocol
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documented in the Atom Syndication Format (RFC4287).

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Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 15:02:48 -0800
From: Aleks Totic <a@totic.org>
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Hi,
is there a way for an Atom feed to specify that reading articles 
requires a login?

The reason why I've thought of this question is a problem in 
Thunderbird feed reader implementation. It tries to fetch & 
display full articles as HTML. For authenticated sites, if your 
login cookies are not there, you get back a login page. In 
Thunderbird there is no way to fill in the login page, as all 
browsing requests are redirected to Firefox.

One solution might be to allow browsing and cookies inside 
Thunderbird only for logging into feeds. To implement this, and 
show the login button only when needed, tb needs to know that 
feed requires web-style authentication. Is there a way to specify 
this in Atom?

Similar problem arises in feed agregators. For example, flickr 
feeds might differ depending on your login status (whether you 
are friends or family...)

I've grep'd through the drafts, and the mailing list digest, but 
I have not found any discussion of this issue.

Aleks




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Hi Aleks,

* Aleks Totic <a@totic.org> [2006-02-23 00:15]:
>For authenticated sites, if your login cookies are not there,
>you get back a login page. In Thunderbird there is no way to
>fill in the login page, as all browsing requests are redirected
>to Firefox.

I think the standard answer to that would be =E2=80=9Cuse HTTP
authentication instead of cookies.=E2=80=9D Many aggregators support
subscribing to HTTP-authenticated feeds. (I don=E2=80=99t know if most
do, but I assume so.) Then when generating returning a feed to a
client, weave the client=E2=80=99s supplied auth info into the alternate
links, and accept HTTP auth on those pages in addition to
cookies.

That would work out of the box. For cookie-based auth, there is
no existing approach, and I doubt that one would get significant
traction anytime soon.

Regards,
--=20
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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Subject: Fwd: [rss-public] Microsoft Feeds API Enclosure Test
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Does someone who has access to an MSFT system care to take a
look at this?

>From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
>To: rss-public@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [rss-public] Microsoft Feeds API Enclosure Test
>Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 21:28:19 -0800
>Message-ID: <43FD47F3.6000000@gmail.com>
>List-Id: <rss-public.yahoogroups.com>
>
>Hmm.. interestingly, this API also looks as if it would stuff multiple
>enclosures in Atom also... in which case, I'd argue that the API is
>simply broken.
>
>rcade wrote:
>> Power Line has a podcast feed that includes multiple enclosures, as
>> someone pointed out earlier on this list:
>> 
>> http://www.powerlineblog.com/podcasts.xml
>> 
>> A cached copy of this feed is here:
>> 
>> http://www.rssboard.org/files/example-multiple-enclosures.xml
>> 
>> This feed contains one item with one enclosure, a second with three
>> enclosures, and a third with three enclosures (in that order).
>> 
>> After subscribing to this feed in MSIE 7 and choosing automatic
>> downloads of enclosures, I wrote a VB.NET console application that
>> displays the URL of each enclosure in the feed:
>> 
>> Sub Main()
>>     Dim fm : fm = CreateObject("Microsoft.FeedsManager")
>>     Dim fmroot = fm.RootFolder
>>     Dim plfeed = fmroot.getFeed("Power Line")
>>     Dim i
>>     For i = 0 To plfeed.Items.Count - 1
>>         Dim item = plfeed.getItem(i)
>>         Console.WriteLine("Title: " + item.Title)
>>         Dim plenclosure = item.Enclosure()
>>         Console.WriteLine("Enclosure: " + plenclosure.Url)
>>         Console.WriteLine("")
>>         Console.Write(item.xml(1))
>>         Console.WriteLine("")
>>     Next
>> End Sub
>> 
>> Here's the output of the application (with item elements other than
>> enclosure removed from the XML):
>> 
>> -- BEGIN OUTPUT --
>> 
>> Title: Listen to Col. Stephenson and Judge for Yourself
>> Enclosure: http://powerlineblog.com/podcasts/NA218Stephenson.mp3
>> 
>> <item><enclosure
>> url="http://powerlineblog.com/podcasts/NA218Stephenson.mp3"
>> length="21455322" type="audio/mpeg"
>> xmlns:cf="http://www.microsoft.com/schemas/rss/core/2005"
>> cf:path="C:\Documents and Settings\Rogers\Local Settings\Temporary
>> Internet Files\Enclosure\{0C1E2407-FAE4-447F-9054-FB1C7CFE6A86}\Listen
>> to Col. Stephenson and Judge for Yourself.mp3"
>> cf:downloadstatus="Downloaded"/></item>
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>> Title: New Podcast:  Yesterday's Northern Alliance Radio Network
>> Enclosure: http://powerlineblog.com/podcasts/Feb111stHourPt1.mp3
>> 
>> <item><enclosure
>> url="http://powerlineblog.com/podcasts/Feb111stHourPt1.mp3"
>> length="19949804" type="audio/mpeg"
>> xmlns:cf="http://www.microsoft.com/schemas/rss/core/2005"
>> cf:path="C:\Documents and Settings\Rogers\Local Settings\Temporary
>> Internet Files\Enclosure\{0C1E2407-FAE4-447F-9054-FB1C7CFE6A86}\New
>> Podcast  Yesterday's Northern Alliance Radio Network.mp3"
>> cf:downloadstatus="Downloaded"/><enclosure
>> url="http://powerlineblog.com/podcasts/Feb111stHourPt2.mp3"
>> length="8550404" type="audio/mpeg"/><enclosure
>> url="http://powerlineblog.com/podcasts/Feb112ndHour.mp3"
>> length="15032924" type="audio/mpeg"/></item>
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>> Title: Now Podcasting:  The Northern Alliance Radio Network!
>> Enclosure: http://powerlineblog.com/podcasts/January21,1stHour.mp3
>> 
>> <item><enclosure
>> url="http://powerlineblog.com/podcasts/January21,1stHour.mp3"
>> length="39923577" type="audio/mpeg"
>> xmlns:cf="http://www.microsoft.com/schemas/rss/core/2005"
>> cf:path="C:\Documents and Settings\Rogers\Local Settings\Temporary
>> Internet Files\Enclosure\{0C1E2407-FAE4-447F-9054-FB1C7CFE6A86}\Now
>> Podcasting  The Northern Alliance Radio Network!.mp3"
>> cf:downloadstatus="Downloaded"/><enclosure
>> url="http://powerlineblog.com/podcasts/January212ndHourPt1.mp3"
>> length="14954800" type="audio/mpeg"/><enclosure
>> url="http://powerlineblog.com/podcasts/January212ndHourPt2.mp3"
>> length="12517975" type="audio/mpeg"/></item>
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>> -- END OUTPUT --
>> 
>> The Feeds API refers to an item enclosure singularly. The only method
>> I found reads a enclosure from an item. When multiple
>> enclosures are present, item.Enclosure() retrieves the first.
>> 
>> An item's xml(1) method produces its contents as XML, with the numeric
>> 1 argument indicating that Microsoft's common format feed
>> elements, and Simple List Extensions should be included in the output.
>> 
>> The XML output includes the multiple enclosures, in which the
>> cf:downloadstatus element only is present for the first enclosure in
>> each item.
>> 
>> Checking the Temporary Internet Files folder where enclosures are
>> being stored, only the first enclosure in each of the three items is
>> present.
>> 
>> As the Feeds API is presently implemented, publishers of RSS feeds
>> with multiple enclosures will lose two advantages of Microsoft's
>> common feed engine when their feeds are read:
>> 
>> 1. Enclosures beyond an item's first are not automatically downloaded,
>> so they must be requested manually by a user.
>> 
>> 2. Programmers who build on the API will have to grab the XML and get
>> these files directly.
>> 
>> This is my first poke around the Feeds API and VB.NET, so it's likely
>> I may be overlooking things.

----- End forwarded message -----

Regards,
-- 
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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Thursday, February 23, 2006, 6:37:50 AM, you wrote:

> Does someone who has access to an MSFT system care to take a
> look at this?

I have been playing with IE7, and it is interesting to see what
happens when you click on a feed and "view source".

If the feed hasn't been subscribed to, you just see the feed source as
you would expect.

If you have subscribed to the feed however, you see Windows's internal
representation of the feed, which is normalised to a sort of RSS2++. I
assume that this is what is exposed when you use the APIs to access
the XML.

(Hmm - giving access to the XML in this way is a brave move, XML has a
huge surface area for an API, practically any change to the XML
produced by Windows could break client applications, and I didn't find
any documentation for the normalised RSS2++ ).

What is interesting is that Atom is handled (reasonably well), by
converting the Atom to RSS2. The logic seems to replace atom elements
with there RSS2 equivalents and the loss in fidelity is not too great
(eg atom:updated -> pubDate), and to leave the Atom as-is for awkward
(eg: content@type=text/xml)

There is definitely some loss in fidelity though.  It would be nice to
run an extreme Atom feed through the process to see what gets lost.
xml:base appears to get corrupted, and unless the API provides access
to the baseURI of each entry there is a risk of data loss (as the
xml:base at feed level may change between polls it therefore needs to
be preserved with each entry.)

Does anyone have a bad-ass atom feed with IRIs, binary content,
atom:source, xml:base, xml:lang, extensions etc for testing?

-- 
Dave




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The normalized XML that you're seeing in View Source is also accessible from the feed APIs, so the XML we generate is a format we expect to support in perpetuity. 

It's designed to be a relatively simple format that application developers can rely on in the same way that they rely on APIs in the object model, so we map all common elements from other formats into RSS 2.0 (the basis for our native format). Why RSS 2.0? Because it's the format used by the majority of feeds on the web. Since this is an internal format between the platform and its clients, it theoretically doesn't matter what we chose as long as there's no data loss (and as long as we document it -- which we're in the process of doing). In the Atom case, in particular, we occasionally need to bring Atom elements through as RSS 2.0 extensions. 

Any case of data-loss is a bug that we'll address (that's the point of a Beta :). If you have cases of sites where there is data-loss, you can either send it me, send it to rssteam@microsoft.com or post to the feedback wiki where we're tracking feeds that we're not handling correctly [1].

I'm in the process of publishing the documentation for how the Windows RSS Platform handles each feed format on our blog [2].

If someone does have a particularly complex Atom feed, we'd love to use it for our own testing to make sure we're handling all of the Atom-specific data correctly, so just send me a link.

As a general statement, if you have question about what IE7/Windows is or is not doing with feeds, just drop me a line. 

Thanks,

Sean 

 [1] http://channel9.msdn.com/wiki/default.aspx/Channel9.InternetExplorerFeedIssues 
 [2] http://blogs.msdn.com/rssteam


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of David Powell
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 7:29 AM
To: A. Pagaltzis
Cc: Atom Syntax
Subject: Re: Fwd: [rss-public] Microsoft Feeds API Enclosure Test



Thursday, February 23, 2006, 6:37:50 AM, you wrote:

> Does someone who has access to an MSFT system care to take a look at 
> this?

I have been playing with IE7, and it is interesting to see what happens when you click on a feed and "view source".

If the feed hasn't been subscribed to, you just see the feed source as you would expect.

If you have subscribed to the feed however, you see Windows's internal representation of the feed, which is normalised to a sort of RSS2++. I assume that this is what is exposed when you use the APIs to access the XML.

(Hmm - giving access to the XML in this way is a brave move, XML has a huge surface area for an API, practically any change to the XML produced by Windows could break client applications, and I didn't find any documentation for the normalised RSS2++ ).

What is interesting is that Atom is handled (reasonably well), by converting the Atom to RSS2. The logic seems to replace atom elements with there RSS2 equivalents and the loss in fidelity is not too great (eg atom:updated -> pubDate), and to leave the Atom as-is for awkward
(eg: content@type=text/xml)

There is definitely some loss in fidelity though.  It would be nice to run an extreme Atom feed through the process to see what gets lost.
xml:base appears to get corrupted, and unless the API provides access to the baseURI of each entry there is a risk of data loss (as the xml:base at feed level may change between polls it therefore needs to be preserved with each entry.)

Does anyone have a bad-ass atom feed with IRIs, binary content, atom:source, xml:base, xml:lang, extensions etc for testing?

--
Dave





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To: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de>, Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
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To answer the original question here, IE7 (and the Windows RSS Platform) doesn't support multiple enclosures in the current release. 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of A. Pagaltzis
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 10:38 PM
To: Atom Syntax
Subject: Fwd: [rss-public] Microsoft Feeds API Enclosure Test


Does someone who has access to an MSFT system care to take a look at this?

>From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
>To: rss-public@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [rss-public] Microsoft Feeds API Enclosure Test
>Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 21:28:19 -0800
>Message-ID: <43FD47F3.6000000@gmail.com>
>List-Id: <rss-public.yahoogroups.com>
>
>Hmm.. interestingly, this API also looks as if it would stuff multiple 
>enclosures in Atom also... in which case, I'd argue that the API is 
>simply broken.
>
>rcade wrote:
>> Power Line has a podcast feed that includes multiple enclosures, as 
>> someone pointed out earlier on this list:
>> 
>> http://www.powerlineblog.com/podcasts.xml
>> 
>> A cached copy of this feed is here:
>> 
>> http://www.rssboard.org/files/example-multiple-enclosures.xml
>> 
>> This feed contains one item with one enclosure, a second with three 
>> enclosures, and a third with three enclosures (in that order).
>> 
>> After subscribing to this feed in MSIE 7 and choosing automatic 
>> downloads of enclosures, I wrote a VB.NET console application that 
>> displays the URL of each enclosure in the feed:
>> 
>> Sub Main()
>>     Dim fm : fm = CreateObject("Microsoft.FeedsManager")
>>     Dim fmroot = fm.RootFolder
>>     Dim plfeed = fmroot.getFeed("Power Line")
>>     Dim i
>>     For i = 0 To plfeed.Items.Count - 1
>>         Dim item = plfeed.getItem(i)
>>         Console.WriteLine("Title: " + item.Title)
>>         Dim plenclosure = item.Enclosure()
>>         Console.WriteLine("Enclosure: " + plenclosure.Url)
>>         Console.WriteLine("")
>>         Console.Write(item.xml(1))
>>         Console.WriteLine("")
>>     Next
>> End Sub
>> 
>> Here's the output of the application (with item elements other than 
>> enclosure removed from the XML):
>> 
>> -- BEGIN OUTPUT --
>> 
>> Title: Listen to Col. Stephenson and Judge for Yourself
>> Enclosure: http://powerlineblog.com/podcasts/NA218Stephenson.mp3
>> 
>> <item><enclosure
>> url="http://powerlineblog.com/podcasts/NA218Stephenson.mp3"
>> length="21455322" type="audio/mpeg"
>> xmlns:cf="http://www.microsoft.com/schemas/rss/core/2005"
>> cf:path="C:\Documents and Settings\Rogers\Local Settings\Temporary 
>> Internet 
>> Files\Enclosure\{0C1E2407-FAE4-447F-9054-FB1C7CFE6A86}\Listen
>> to Col. Stephenson and Judge for Yourself.mp3"
>> cf:downloadstatus="Downloaded"/></item>
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>> Title: New Podcast:  Yesterday's Northern Alliance Radio Network
>> Enclosure: http://powerlineblog.com/podcasts/Feb111stHourPt1.mp3
>> 
>> <item><enclosure
>> url="http://powerlineblog.com/podcasts/Feb111stHourPt1.mp3"
>> length="19949804" type="audio/mpeg"
>> xmlns:cf="http://www.microsoft.com/schemas/rss/core/2005"
>> cf:path="C:\Documents and Settings\Rogers\Local Settings\Temporary 
>> Internet Files\Enclosure\{0C1E2407-FAE4-447F-9054-FB1C7CFE6A86}\New
>> Podcast  Yesterday's Northern Alliance Radio Network.mp3"
>> cf:downloadstatus="Downloaded"/><enclosure
>> url="http://powerlineblog.com/podcasts/Feb111stHourPt2.mp3"
>> length="8550404" type="audio/mpeg"/><enclosure 
>> url="http://powerlineblog.com/podcasts/Feb112ndHour.mp3"
>> length="15032924" type="audio/mpeg"/></item>
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>> Title: Now Podcasting:  The Northern Alliance Radio Network!
>> Enclosure: http://powerlineblog.com/podcasts/January21,1stHour.mp3
>> 
>> <item><enclosure
>> url="http://powerlineblog.com/podcasts/January21,1stHour.mp3"
>> length="39923577" type="audio/mpeg"
>> xmlns:cf="http://www.microsoft.com/schemas/rss/core/2005"
>> cf:path="C:\Documents and Settings\Rogers\Local Settings\Temporary 
>> Internet Files\Enclosure\{0C1E2407-FAE4-447F-9054-FB1C7CFE6A86}\Now
>> Podcasting  The Northern Alliance Radio Network!.mp3"
>> cf:downloadstatus="Downloaded"/><enclosure
>> url="http://powerlineblog.com/podcasts/January212ndHourPt1.mp3"
>> length="14954800" type="audio/mpeg"/><enclosure 
>> url="http://powerlineblog.com/podcasts/January212ndHourPt2.mp3"
>> length="12517975" type="audio/mpeg"/></item>
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>> -- END OUTPUT --
>> 
>> The Feeds API refers to an item enclosure singularly. The only method 
>> I found reads a enclosure from an item. When multiple enclosures are 
>> present, item.Enclosure() retrieves the first.
>> 
>> An item's xml(1) method produces its contents as XML, with the 
>> numeric
>> 1 argument indicating that Microsoft's common format feed elements, 
>> and Simple List Extensions should be included in the output.
>> 
>> The XML output includes the multiple enclosures, in which the 
>> cf:downloadstatus element only is present for the first enclosure in 
>> each item.
>> 
>> Checking the Temporary Internet Files folder where enclosures are 
>> being stored, only the first enclosure in each of the three items is 
>> present.
>> 
>> As the Feeds API is presently implemented, publishers of RSS feeds 
>> with multiple enclosures will lose two advantages of Microsoft's 
>> common feed engine when their feeds are read:
>> 
>> 1. Enclosures beyond an item's first are not automatically 
>> downloaded, so they must be requested manually by a user.
>> 
>> 2. Programmers who build on the API will have to grab the XML and get 
>> these files directly.
>> 
>> This is my first poke around the Feeds API and VB.NET, so it's likely 
>> I may be overlooking things.

----- End forwarded message -----

Regards,
--
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>





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Thanks for the heads up on this.  Check my blog[1] for a few comments

[1] http://www.snellspace.com/wp/?p=268

- James

Sean Lyndersay wrote:
> 
> The normalized XML that you're seeing in View Source is also accessible from the feed APIs, so the XML we generate is a format we expect to support in perpetuity. 
> 
> It's designed to be a relatively simple format that application developers can rely on in the same way that they rely on APIs in the object model, so we map all common elements from other formats into RSS 2.0 (the basis for our native format). Why RSS 2.0? Because it's the format used by the majority of feeds on the web. Since this is an internal format between the platform and its clients, it theoretically doesn't matter what we chose as long as there's no data loss (and as long as we document it -- which we're in the process of doing). In the Atom case, in particular, we occasionally need to bring Atom elements through as RSS 2.0 extensions. 
> 
> Any case of data-loss is a bug that we'll address (that's the point of a Beta :). If you have cases of sites where there is data-loss, you can either send it me, send it to rssteam@microsoft.com or post to the feedback wiki where we're tracking feeds that we're not handling correctly [1].
> 
> I'm in the process of publishing the documentation for how the Windows RSS Platform handles each feed format on our blog [2].
> 
> If someone does have a particularly complex Atom feed, we'd love to use it for our own testing to make sure we're handling all of the Atom-specific data correctly, so just send me a link.
> 
> As a general statement, if you have question about what IE7/Windows is or is not doing with feeds, just drop me a line. 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Sean 
> 
>  [1] http://channel9.msdn.com/wiki/default.aspx/Channel9.InternetExplorerFeedIssues 
>  [2] http://blogs.msdn.com/rssteam
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of David Powell
> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 7:29 AM
> To: A. Pagaltzis
> Cc: Atom Syntax
> Subject: Re: Fwd: [rss-public] Microsoft Feeds API Enclosure Test
> 
> 
> 
> Thursday, February 23, 2006, 6:37:50 AM, you wrote:
> 
>> Does someone who has access to an MSFT system care to take a look at 
>> this?
> 
> I have been playing with IE7, and it is interesting to see what happens when you click on a feed and "view source".
> 
> If the feed hasn't been subscribed to, you just see the feed source as you would expect.
> 
> If you have subscribed to the feed however, you see Windows's internal representation of the feed, which is normalised to a sort of RSS2++. I assume that this is what is exposed when you use the APIs to access the XML.
> 
> (Hmm - giving access to the XML in this way is a brave move, XML has a huge surface area for an API, practically any change to the XML produced by Windows could break client applications, and I didn't find any documentation for the normalised RSS2++ ).
> 
> What is interesting is that Atom is handled (reasonably well), by converting the Atom to RSS2. The logic seems to replace atom elements with there RSS2 equivalents and the loss in fidelity is not too great (eg atom:updated -> pubDate), and to leave the Atom as-is for awkward
> (eg: content@type=text/xml)
> 
> There is definitely some loss in fidelity though.  It would be nice to run an extreme Atom feed through the process to see what gets lost.
> xml:base appears to get corrupted, and unless the API provides access to the baseURI of each entry there is a risk of data loss (as the xml:base at feed level may change between polls it therefore needs to be preserved with each entry.)
> 
> Does anyone have a bad-ass atom feed with IRIs, binary content, atom:source, xml:base, xml:lang, extensions etc for testing?
> 
> --
> Dave
> 
> 
> 




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Thanks James,

There's a general comment about normalization that I should address. First, normalization is something we have to do -- every aggregator on the planet has a native format that they work with, and they convert to that format before doing anything else. In our case, since we're developing a platform as well, we make that normalized format available to any user of the platform. We also provide a object model over the normalized feed.

The primary reason for providing XML is that some developers find it easier to build applications using XML+XSL/XPath, rather than using an object model. The other major reason is to enable access to any elements that we don't natively support (i.e. most extensions) in the object model. To make this easier, we provide access to normalized XML version of the entire feed, or a fragment that represents a single item. 

Giving the original format to the developer is of questionable value since that makes the developer have to do all the work of learning 4 different feed formats just to get the data they need. For this reason, we kept the normalized format as close the most commonly used format (RSS 2.0) as possible, with extensions where necessary to keep the spirit of the Atom 1.0 format intact. 

Obviously, we have some bugs still, as you've pointed out, which we'll address for the next Beta.

I'm sure that many people -- on this list in particular -- think that the right thing to do is to normalize to Atom 1.0, instead. Yep, that's certainly one way to think about it. But then I'd be having this same discussion with Dave and with folks on rss-public. :) In short, I'd rather avoid the issue altogether and provide some value to the developers who are using the platform -- which means preventing them from having to learn several different formats to get common data, while allowing them to get access to extensions.

Addressing your post's issues in order: 

#1. We make no active effort to re-order the items in the feed. By default, they should end up being ordered by the date elements in the feed. As you noted, neither Atom nor RSS 2.0/1.0 require that order be respected. 

#2. Stripping out extensions. This is a bug we'll address.

#3. Invalid Atom. This is a bug we'll address.

#4. We'll look into addressing this with a namespace. 


Thanks for the detailed post and comments. If you have any other questions, just let me know.
Sean

-----Original Message-----
From: James M Snell [mailto:jasnell@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 2:39 PM
To: Sean Lyndersay
Cc: Atom Syntax
Subject: Re: Fwd: [rss-public] Microsoft Feeds API Enclosure Test

Thanks for the heads up on this.  Check my blog[1] for a few comments

[1] http://www.snellspace.com/wp/?p=268

- James

Sean Lyndersay wrote:
> 
> The normalized XML that you're seeing in View Source is also accessible from the feed APIs, so the XML we generate is a format we expect to support in perpetuity. 
> 
> It's designed to be a relatively simple format that application developers can rely on in the same way that they rely on APIs in the object model, so we map all common elements from other formats into RSS 2.0 (the basis for our native format). Why RSS 2.0? Because it's the format used by the majority of feeds on the web. Since this is an internal format between the platform and its clients, it theoretically doesn't matter what we chose as long as there's no data loss (and as long as we document it -- which we're in the process of doing). In the Atom case, in particular, we occasionally need to bring Atom elements through as RSS 2.0 extensions. 
> 
> Any case of data-loss is a bug that we'll address (that's the point of a Beta :). If you have cases of sites where there is data-loss, you can either send it me, send it to rssteam@microsoft.com or post to the feedback wiki where we're tracking feeds that we're not handling correctly [1].
> 
> I'm in the process of publishing the documentation for how the Windows RSS Platform handles each feed format on our blog [2].
> 
> If someone does have a particularly complex Atom feed, we'd love to use it for our own testing to make sure we're handling all of the Atom-specific data correctly, so just send me a link.
> 
> As a general statement, if you have question about what IE7/Windows is or is not doing with feeds, just drop me a line. 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Sean
> 
>  [1] 
> http://channel9.msdn.com/wiki/default.aspx/Channel9.InternetExplorerFe
> edIssues
>  [2] http://blogs.msdn.com/rssteam
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org 
> [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of David Powell
> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 7:29 AM
> To: A. Pagaltzis
> Cc: Atom Syntax
> Subject: Re: Fwd: [rss-public] Microsoft Feeds API Enclosure Test
> 
> 
> 
> Thursday, February 23, 2006, 6:37:50 AM, you wrote:
> 
>> Does someone who has access to an MSFT system care to take a look at 
>> this?
> 
> I have been playing with IE7, and it is interesting to see what happens when you click on a feed and "view source".
> 
> If the feed hasn't been subscribed to, you just see the feed source as you would expect.
> 
> If you have subscribed to the feed however, you see Windows's internal representation of the feed, which is normalised to a sort of RSS2++. I assume that this is what is exposed when you use the APIs to access the XML.
> 
> (Hmm - giving access to the XML in this way is a brave move, XML has a huge surface area for an API, practically any change to the XML produced by Windows could break client applications, and I didn't find any documentation for the normalised RSS2++ ).
> 
> What is interesting is that Atom is handled (reasonably well), by 
> converting the Atom to RSS2. The logic seems to replace atom elements 
> with there RSS2 equivalents and the loss in fidelity is not too great 
> (eg atom:updated -> pubDate), and to leave the Atom as-is for awkward
> (eg: content@type=text/xml)
> 
> There is definitely some loss in fidelity though.  It would be nice to run an extreme Atom feed through the process to see what gets lost.
> xml:base appears to get corrupted, and unless the API provides access 
> to the baseURI of each entry there is a risk of data loss (as the 
> xml:base at feed level may change between polls it therefore needs to 
> be preserved with each entry.)
> 
> Does anyone have a bad-ass atom feed with IRIs, binary content, atom:source, xml:base, xml:lang, extensions etc for testing?
> 
> --
> Dave
> 
> 
> 




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Sean Lyndersay wrote:
> Thanks James,
> 
>There's a general comment about normalization that I should address. First, normalization 
>is something we have to do -- every aggregator on the planet has a native format that they 
>work with, and they convert to that format before doing anything else. In our case, since 
>we're developing a platform as well, we make that normalized format
available to any user
>of the platform. We also provide a object model over the normalized feed.
>

Yep, completely understood, but it's still rather annoying that I can't
seem to be able to get to the original input... or at the very least,
have an option of retrieving the XML as Atom if the original input was
Atom... if not by default, then as an additional API call.

If the MS RSS stuff was *just* an aggregator, I wouldn't care so much
about this, but given that it's also a platform, I, as a publisher,
don't take too kindly to that platform completely changing and hiding
what I originally published from developers.

> Giving the original format to the developer is of questionable value since that makes the 
> developer have to do all the work of learning 4 different feed formats just to get the data 
>they need. For this reason, we kept the normalized format as close the most commonly used format 

Like I said, providing the normalized form is a reasonable default
behavior, but for those sick and twisted individuals that want to get to
the original format, you should let them.

> Obviously, we have some bugs still, as you've pointed out, which we'll address for the next Beta.
> 

:-D

> I'm sure that many people -- on this list in particular -- think that the right thing to do is 
> to normalize to Atom 1.0, instead. 

I would have preferred that, but I can understand the choice y'all made.

> #1. We make no active effort to re-order the items in the feed. By default, they should end 
> up being ordered by the date elements in the feed. As you noted, neither Atom nor RSS 2.0/1.0 require that order be respected. 
> 

Would it be reasonable to make sure that it sorts 'em in descending
order by date? :-)

> #2. Stripping out extensions. This is a bug we'll address.
> 
> #3. Invalid Atom. This is a bug we'll address.
> 
> #4. We'll look into addressing this with a namespace. 
> 

Excellent.

> 
> Thanks for the detailed post and comments. If you have any other questions, just let me know.

I'll likely be hitting the API again in the next couple of weeks.  In
the meantime, please make sure y'all are taking a look at the
conformance tests on the Atom wiki. :-)

- James




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On Feb 24, 2006, at 3:05 PM, Sean Lyndersay wrote:

> I'm sure that many people -- on this list in particular -- think  
> that the right thing to do is to normalize to Atom 1.0, instead.  
> Yep, that's certainly one way to think about it. But then I'd be  
> having this same discussion with Dave and with folks on rss- 
> public. :) In short, I'd rather avoid the issue altogether and  
> provide some value to the developers who are using the platform --  
> which means preventing them from having to learn several different  
> formats to get common data, while allowing them to get access to  
> extensions.

Given that Atom 1.0, in practice, is a clean superset of RSS 2.0  
(there are things in RSS 2.0 that aren't in Atom, but they are  
typically not used; see http://www.tbray.org/atom/RSS-and-Atom), the  
only one that's been through a formal standardization process, and  
the only that's guaranteed not to change (see IETF rules) this feels  
a little weird.  But it's your API.

I will say, though, that there are already a lot of Atom 1.0 feeds  
and there are going to be more, so it does seem like a basic  
requirement that your interface be able to model Atom 1.0 accurately  
without data loss.  I assume you agree that a failure to do this  
would be a bug. -Tim




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Hi Sean,

first of all, thanks for responding. Now, to your points:

* Sean Lyndersay <seanlynd@exchange.microsoft.com> [2006-02-25 00:20]:
>Giving the original format to the developer is of questionable
>value since that makes the developer have to do all the work of
>learning 4 different feed formats just to get the data they
>need.

I agree that for the common simple needs, it is helpful for
developers to standardize on a single format. But why would you
refuse the pristine input to developers who are willing to do
extra work in order to get extra value out of the input? I don't
see any reason not to offer both options; it's not an either/or
question.

>I'm sure that many people -- on this list in particular -- think
>that the right thing to do is to normalize to Atom 1.0, instead.
>Yep, that's certainly one way to think about it. But then I'd be
>having this same discussion with Dave and with folks on
>rss-public. :)

Another way to look at this is that you are not actually
normalising to RSS 2.0.

The Atom model is a proper superset of the RSS 2.0 model, so
anything that can be expressed in RSS 2.0 can also be expressed
faithfully in Atom, whereas the reverse is not true and there is
loss of fidelity. You overcome this by adding namespaced Atom
elements to RSS 2.0; put plainly, you end up with a format that
isn't RSS 2.0 so much as a funky Atom-in-RSS-2.0 thing.

But when all is said and done, the names between the angle
brackets don't matter much. My concern is rather that the
benefits that the Atom model brings to the table, both in added
capabilities as well as in rigor, be available to as many users
as soon as possible.

And to that end, the following:

>In short, I'd rather avoid the issue altogether and provide some
>value to the developers who are using the platform -- which
>means preventing them from having to learn several different
>formats to get common data, while allowing them to get access to
>extensions.

could be a great opportunity. But my question here is, how will
the Atom extensions be documented? Do they constitute an integral
part of the core normalized format? Or will they just be
second-class citizen which developers will have to be
individually persuaded to support? How much of the added
capabilities will be available through the API?

In a nutshell, how likely is it that developers aiming to do the
simplest thing that can possibly work will support the full
capabilities of Atom?

Regards,
-- 
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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This is purely experimental at this point.  I'm playing around with
various ways of associating things like hCard's, vCards, FOAF, LDAP
profiles, etc with a person in an atom feed.  This extension uses a
model similar to the existing atom content model to provide a container
for profile and identity data.  Anyway, feedback welcome as always.

See my Atom feed for an example:

http://www.snellspace.com/wp/wp-atom1.php

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-author-extensions-00.txt


- James




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To: "Sean Lyndersay" <seanlynd@exchange.microsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [rss-public] Microsoft Feeds API Enclosure Test
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On 2/24/06, Sean Lyndersay <seanlynd@exchange.microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> Giving the original format to the developer is of questionable value since that makes the
> developer have to do all the work of learning 4 different feed formats just to get the data
> they need. For this reason, we kept the normalized format as close the most commonly
> used format (RSS 2.0) as possible, with extensions where necessary to keep the spirit of
> the Atom 1.0 format intact.

Works for me.

--

Robert Sayre

"I would have written a shorter letter, but I did not have the time."




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From: Sean Lyndersay <seanlynd@exchange.microsoft.com>
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Yes, I agree that failure to model Atom 1.0 feeds accurately is a bug, though as Paul Hoffman pointed out off-list, there is at least one scenario where we will fail to do this (at least for this release), which is signed entries.

So, a more accurate way to state it, would be that, given the choice to normalize to RSS 2.0, we will do everything we can to ensure that the information publisher's puts in the feed is available to developers using the API. 

For what it's worth, there will be updates to this API over time, so it is possible that we will have an API that makes the content available in Atom format, as well (or in the native format, though that's harder because it requires that we persist the original XML). This feedback is all extremely useful in helping us figure out what the right thing to do is.

Thanks,
Sean


-----Original Message-----
From: Tim.Bray@Sun.COM [mailto:Tim.Bray@Sun.COM] 
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 4:02 PM
To: Sean Lyndersay
Cc: James M Snell; Atom Syntax
Subject: Re: [rss-public] Microsoft Feeds API Enclosure Test

On Feb 24, 2006, at 3:05 PM, Sean Lyndersay wrote:

> I'm sure that many people -- on this list in particular -- think that 
> the right thing to do is to normalize to Atom 1.0, instead.
> Yep, that's certainly one way to think about it. But then I'd be 
> having this same discussion with Dave and with folks on rss- public. 
> :) In short, I'd rather avoid the issue altogether and provide some 
> value to the developers who are using the platform -- which means 
> preventing them from having to learn several different formats to get 
> common data, while allowing them to get access to extensions.

Given that Atom 1.0, in practice, is a clean superset of RSS 2.0 (there are things in RSS 2.0 that aren't in Atom, but they are typically not used; see http://www.tbray.org/atom/RSS-and-Atom), the only one that's been through a formal standardization process, and the only that's guaranteed not to change (see IETF rules) this feels a little weird.  But it's your API.

I will say, though, that there are already a lot of Atom 1.0 feeds and there are going to be more, so it does seem like a basic requirement that your interface be able to model Atom 1.0 accurately without data loss.  I assume you agree that a failure to do this would be a bug. -Tim





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Sean Lyndersay wrote:
> 
> The normalized XML that you're seeing in View Source is also
> accessible from the feed APIs, so the XML we generate is a format we
> expect to support in perpetuity.
> 
> It's designed to be a relatively simple format that application
> developers can rely on in the same way that they rely on APIs in the
> object model, so we map all common elements from other formats into
> RSS 2.0 (the basis for our native format). Why RSS 2.0? Because it's
> the format used by the majority of feeds on the web.

From reports I have seen, you are doing things like adding type
attributes on the description element?  If so, it isn't RSS 2.0.

How do you plan to handle multiple enclosures?

How about HTML in titles?

On Feed-Tech I saw a post by Phil Stanhope indicating the importance of
sub-second times in certain scenarios.  How will this be expressed in
RFC 822 format?

How about content that is in a binary format?

I can go on...

> Any case of data-loss is a bug that we'll address

If that is a blanket statement, then I expect that you will be seeing a
lot of bug reports.

- Sam Ruby




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From: Sean Lyndersay <seanlynd@exchange.microsoft.com>
To: Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net>
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As an format that is not intended for publishing on the web, but which is really a contract between the platform and the clients of the platform, the native format we use is not really required to be "pure" RSS 2.0. As I said, we use RSS 2.0 as the basis for the native format to leverage developers understanding of that format. I don't think that the addition of a single attribute to an element quite invalidates the entire premise, but if it really upsets everyone, we can put it in a namespace.

Obviously, the further off the beaten path you get from typical feeds, the less like a pure RSS 2.0 feed it will look. 

Especially in the case of Atom 1.0, we detect various cases that aren't supported by RSS 2.0, and model them as extensions. Binary content is an example where we'll include the entire atom element as an RSS 2.0 extension in the feed. 

Since RFC 822 doesn't support sub-second times, we'll truncate those in the XML we return, but the sub-second times is available via the object model, if an application needs it.

Right now, we don't support multiple enclosures, so representing it in the XML isn't an issue. When we do - in a future release - we could include multiple enclosure elements in the XML, or create an extension (or leverage the Yahoo Media RSS extensions). 

At the end of the day, I'll readily admit that complex Atom 1.0 feeds won't look pretty in RSS 2.0+Atom-extensions. That said, the vast majority of all Atom feeds on the Internet today convert to RSS 2.0 with zero issues. 

I'll repeat what I said in a different response: This isn't the end of the API set, and this feedback is useful to figuring out what needs to happen for the next version. 

Thanks,
Sean 

-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Ruby [mailto:rubys@intertwingly.net] 
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 5:32 PM
To: Sean Lyndersay
Cc: Atom Syntax
Subject: Re: Fwd: [rss-public] Microsoft Feeds API Enclosure Test

Sean Lyndersay wrote:
> 
> The normalized XML that you're seeing in View Source is also 
> accessible from the feed APIs, so the XML we generate is a format we 
> expect to support in perpetuity.
> 
> It's designed to be a relatively simple format that application 
> developers can rely on in the same way that they rely on APIs in the 
> object model, so we map all common elements from other formats into 
> RSS 2.0 (the basis for our native format). Why RSS 2.0? Because it's 
> the format used by the majority of feeds on the web.

From reports I have seen, you are doing things like adding type attributes on the description element?  If so, it isn't RSS 2.0.

How do you plan to handle multiple enclosures?

How about HTML in titles?

On Feed-Tech I saw a post by Phil Stanhope indicating the importance of sub-second times in certain scenarios.  How will this be expressed in RFC 822 format?

How about content that is in a binary format?

I can go on...

> Any case of data-loss is a bug that we'll address

If that is a blanket statement, then I expect that you will be seeing a lot of bug reports.

- Sam Ruby




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Subject: Re: Fwd: [rss-public] Microsoft Feeds API Enclosure Test
References: <20060223063750.GN13715@klangraum> <566343939.20060223152917@djpowell.net> <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA82C8B72@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> <43FFB39B.6010309@intertwingly.net> <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA82C8BD8@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com>
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Sean Lyndersay wrote:
> 
> As an format that is not intended for publishing on the web, but
> which is really a contract between the platform and the clients of
> the platform, the native format we use is not really required to be
> "pure" RSS 2.0.

Sean,

I'm not sure what you are looking for.  If the position you find
yourself in is that you are feature complete, the format you have
selected you expect to support in perpetuity, you have baked silent data
loss right into the Windows platform, but you will accept bug reports,
then simply realize that bug reports can be created at will.

If, instead, the position is that you have an internal data model which
is open for discussion, then we can have a discussion.  If you look on
the web, you will find plenty of RSS 2.0 feeds that contain small bits
of HTML markup -- things like bold words or italics -- in titles.  You
will find feeds with multiple enclosures.  You will find feeds with
relative references.  The RSS 2.0 spec doesn't disallow any of these,
nor does it specify how such things are to be interpreted.

Even so, such things are out there.  And they either need to be in your
model, or you have either data loss or data corruption.

You seem to think that you have picked RSS 2.0.  If you take a look at
the current food fight regarding the RSS Advisory Board, you would
realize that RSS 2.0 is frozen.  There are only two paths forward.
Creating new formats with new names, or the use of extensions.  The
newly reconsituted RSS Advisory Board thought that it could change RSS
by providing a small number of much needed clarifications.  They were wrong.

By changing what the description element is, you are changing RSS 2.0.
Call what you are creating a new format.  Or use a different element, in
a namespace.  Perhaps atom:summary would do.  Or you could create your own.

- Sam Ruby




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From: "James Yenne" <jamesy@softwareme.com>
To: <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: Link rel attribute "stylesheet"
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 20:10:57 -0800
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C63B10.C749DCE0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

My feeds contain a generic xml-stylesheet, which formats the feed for
display along with a feed-specific css.  Since xsl processors do not have a
standard way to pass parameters to xsl stylesheets, I provide this
feed-specific css to the xsl processor in the feed as a link with
rel="stylesheet".  Generating xhtml with this xsl/css solution works for
rendering both in IE6 and FF1.5.  (Why does IE7 rip out xml-stylesheet
directives?)  
 
A link rel="stylesheet" seems to be the most efficient solution, however, a
fully qualified URI relation does the job too.  I would like to request a
stylesheet link relation be added to the IANA List of Relations and
supported in the validators.  Thoughts?  
 
Thanks,
James 

------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C63B10.C749DCE0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.5296.0" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D912061023-15022006><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My =
feeds contain a=20
generic xml-stylesheet, which formats the feed for display along with a=20
feed-specific css.&nbsp; </FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D912061023-15022006><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>Since xsl processors do not have a standard way to =
pass=20
parameters to xsl stylesheets, I provide this feed-specific css to the =
xsl=20
processor in the feed as a link with rel=3D"stylesheet".&nbsp; =
Generating xhtml=20
with this xsl/css solution works for rendering both in IE6 and =
FF1.5.&nbsp; (Why=20
does IE7 rip out xml-stylesheet directives?)&nbsp; </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D912061023-15022006><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3D912061023-15022006><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D912061023-15022006><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>A&nbsp;link=20
rel=3D"stylesheet" seems to be the most efficient solution, however, a =
fully=20
qualified URI relation does the job too.&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3D912061023-15022006><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I would like to =
request a=20
stylesheet link relation be added to the IANA List of Relations and =
supported in=20
the validators.&nbsp; <SPAN class=3D912061023-15022006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Thoughts?&nbsp; </FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D912061023-15022006><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D912061023-15022006><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D912061023-15022006><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>James=20
</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C63B10.C749DCE0--




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I've been experimenting with the use of rel="stylesheet" to provide a
relatively safe way of attaching styles to syndicated content.  The
dangers of allowing embedded styles in syndicated content are well known
[1], however, it still makes sense to provide an optional way of
allowing publishers and consumers to attach style to content.

<entry>
  ...
  <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="hcard.css" />
  <content type="xhtml">
    <div xmlns="..." class="vCard">
      <a class="url fn" href="...">John Doe</a>
      <div class="org">Foo, Inc.</div>
    </div>
  </content>
</entry>

<entry>
  ...
  <link rel="stylesheet" type="application/xslt+xml" href="..." />
  <content type="application/xml">
    <a xmlns="urn:foo">
      <b>
        <c>foo</c>
        <d>bar</d>
      </b>
    </a>
  </content>
</entry>

Consumers could choose to apply or ignore the style... preferably based
on user choice.

[1]http://diveintomark.org/archives/2003/06/12/how_to_consume_rss_safely

James Yenne wrote:
> My feeds contain a generic xml-stylesheet, which formats the feed for
> display along with a feed-specific css.  Since xsl processors do not
> have a standard way to pass parameters to xsl stylesheets, I provide
> this feed-specific css to the xsl processor in the feed as a link with
> rel="stylesheet".  Generating xhtml with this xsl/css solution works for
> rendering both in IE6 and FF1.5.  (Why does IE7 rip out xml-stylesheet
> directives?) 
>  
> A link rel="stylesheet" seems to be the most efficient solution,
> however, a fully qualified URI relation does the job too.  I would like
> to request a stylesheet link relation be added to the IANA List of
> Relations and supported in the validators.  Thoughts? 
>  
> Thanks,
> James




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From: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de>
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Subject: Re: Link rel attribute "stylesheet"
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* James Yenne <jamesy@softwareme.com> [2006-02-27 05:25]:
>My feeds contain a generic xml-stylesheet, which formats the
>feed for display along with a feed-specific css.  Since xsl
>processors do not have a standard way to pass parameters to xsl
>stylesheets, I provide this feed-specific css to the xsl
>processor in the feed as a link with rel=3D"stylesheet".

Smells like abuse to me. I=E2=80=99d pass it to the XSL transform using a
namespaced element instead, =C3=A0 la

    <feed xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom">
        <css xmlns=3D"tag:example.org,2006:Foo">/somewhere/over/the/rainb=
ow.css</css>
        <!-- ... -->
    </feed>

If you really don=E2=80=99t want to put in a namespaced element for some
(odd?) reason, you can use an IRI to specify the relationship:

    <atom:link rel=3D"http://example.org/rel/stylesheet" href=3D"/somewhe=
re/over/the/rainbow.css"/>

I don=E2=80=99t think a `stylesheet` relationship warrants adoption in
the canon in any case.

Regards,
--=20
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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From: "James Yenne" <jamesy@softwareme.com>
To: "'A. Pagaltzis'" <pagaltzis@gmx.de>
Cc: <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: RE: Link rel attribute "stylesheet"
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 22:05:46 -0800
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Yes, I currently work around using the IRI, as mentioned, to specify the
relationship and that works fine.  Re namesapces, I just think namespaces
are plentiful already and add a little more work in terms of parsing.  I'=
m
applying them at the feed level, and as James Snell shows, they can be
useful in entries also. =20

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.o=
rg]
On Behalf Of A. Pagaltzis
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 8:43 PM
To: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: Link rel attribute "stylesheet"


* James Yenne <jamesy@softwareme.com> [2006-02-27 05:25]:
>My feeds contain a generic xml-stylesheet, which formats the feed for=20
>display along with a feed-specific css.  Since xsl processors do not=20
>have a standard way to pass parameters to xsl stylesheets, I provide=20
>this feed-specific css to the xsl processor in the feed as a link with=20
>rel=3D"stylesheet".

Smells like abuse to me. I=92d pass it to the XSL transform using a names=
paced
element instead, =E0 la

    <feed xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom">
        <css
xmlns=3D"tag:example.org,2006:Foo">/somewhere/over/the/rainbow.css</css>
        <!-- ... -->
    </feed>

If you really don=92t want to put in a namespaced element for some
(odd?) reason, you can use an IRI to specify the relationship:

    <atom:link rel=3D"http://example.org/rel/stylesheet"
href=3D"/somewhere/over/the/rainbow.css"/>

I don=92t think a `stylesheet` relationship warrants adoption in the cano=
n in
any case.

Regards,
--
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>






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From: "'A. Pagaltzis'" <pagaltzis@gmx.de>
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* James Yenne <jamesy@softwareme.com> [2006-02-27 07:20]:
>as James Snell shows, they can be useful in entries also. =20

Yeah, I hadn=E2=80=99t thought about it in terms of styling content in
standalone aggregators, only as a hatch for XSL transforms
applied for friendlier in-browser presentation.

For the latter, I still think using `atom:link` is abuse, but I
agree that the former is a worthwhile use case so at this point
I=E2=80=99m +0 to this.

Regards,
--=20
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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From: "James Yenne" <jamesy@softwareme.com>
To: "'M. David Peterson'" <xmlhacker@gmail.com>
Cc: <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: RE: Link rel attribute "stylesheet"
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 22:28:47 -0800
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="us-ascii"
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I'm "pre-caching" feeds as xml files and have not added this mime type to
the server, so no, they're served as text/xml.  IE7 appears to recognize
them as feeds because you can see it does its re-factor of the Atom feed as
RSS2.  Why does IE7 convert Atom feeds to RSS2 and use the Atom ns in the
RSS2 feed?.  I seem to have lost control of how my feed is rendered in IE7.
I can render per my own XSL in IE6 and FF1.5.  Are you saying that using
application/atom+xml cause IE7 to keep the xsl?
 
The links in the generated RSS2 are broken: when I mouse over links, it
doesn't include anything after the domain (.com) in the url.  So if an entry
link href contains search parameters, it's chopped off.  Inspecting the raw
xml, however, the search parameters are still present, so IE seems to have a
bug.
 
The IE7 conversion from Atom to RSS2 also doesn't pass the feed
validators... here's an example validated Atom feed, and the IE7 RSS2
conversion creates a channel that does not validate:
Dates are left in the atom ns, but are not rendered as rfc3339, but rather
converted to rfc822; an email address is not included in the RSS2 managing
editor as required, but exists in the Atom feed author/email, and more.
 
 
*	
line
<http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.activera.com%2FI
E8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l2> 2, column 252: managingEditor
must include an email address [help
<http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/InvalidContact.html> ]

...  GMT</pubDate><managingEditor>Shop</managingEditor><atom:author><a ...
                                             ^

*	
line
<http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.activera.com%2FI
E8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l2> 2, column 269: Undefined
channel element: atom:author [help
<http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/UndefinedElement.html> ]

... nagingEditor>Shop</managingEditor><atom:author><atom:name>Sh ...
                                             ^

*	
line
<http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.activera.com%2FI
E8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l2> 2, column 370: Undefined
channel element: guid [help
<http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/UndefinedElement.html> ]

... esy@gorge.net</atom:email></atom:author><guid isPermaLink="false">urn:gu
...
                                             ^

*	
line
<http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.activera.com%2FI
E8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l2> 2, column 643: Unexpected uri
attribute on generator element [help
<http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/UnexpectedAttribute.html> ]

... .css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css"/><generator uri="urn:activera-com
...
                                             ^

*	
line
<http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.activera.com%2FI
E8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l8> 8, column 181: atom:published
must be an RFC-3339 date-time (3 occurrences) [help
<http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/InvalidRFC3339Date.html> ]

... 2005/Atom">Sun, 26 Feb 2006 14:35:04 GMT</atom:published><author>S ...
                                             ^

*	
line
<http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.activera.com%2FI
E8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l8> 8, column 216: author must
include an email address (3 occurrences) [help
<http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/InvalidContact.html> ]

... 4 GMT</atom:published><author>Shop</author><atom:author xmlns:atom ...
                                             ^

*	
line
<http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.activera.com%2FI
E8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l8> 8, column 445: Undefined item
element: atom:link (6 occurrences) [help
<http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/UndefinedElement.html> ]

... 904ca-3e80-4c74-8a62-926fa83405ac</guid><atom:link xmlns:atom="http://ww
...
                                             ^

*	
line
<http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.activera.com%2FI
E8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l8> 8, column 854: Unexpected type
attribute on description element (3 occurrences) [help
<http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/UnexpectedAttribute.html> ]

... ype="application/xml" title="Location"/><description type="html">&lt;div
...
                                             ^

*	
line
<http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.activera.com%2FI
E8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l19> 19, column 74: Missing
channel element: description [help
<http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/MissingDescription.html> ]

	
&lt;/div&gt;</description><cf:id>2</cf:id><cf:read>true</cf:read></item></
...
                                                                          ^

*	
line
<http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.activera.com%2FI
E8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l19> 19, column 74: Missing
channel element: link [help
<http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/MissingLink.html> ]

	
&lt;/div&gt;</description><cf:id>2</cf:id><cf:read>true</cf:read></item></
...


  _____  

From: M. David Peterson [mailto:xmlhacker@gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 8:53 PM
To: James Yenne
Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: Link rel attribute "stylesheet"


correction:
 

serving the .xml extension as with an application/xml extension

should read: serving the .xml extension as with an application/xml MIME-type
(bunch of other spelling and grammar errors, but I would rather not waste
everyones time showcasing something most already know... a first take at
most anything I write tends to send the spell checking engine into fits of
fury... so I save my CPU cycles for take two and beyond :) 



 
On 2/26/06, M. David Peterson <xmlhacker@gmail.com> wrote: 

Neat idea :)
 
> Why does IE7 rip out xml-stylesheet directives.
I can only assume your server is serving up the atom file (correctly) as
application/atom+xml?  If yes, application/atom+xml is transfered directly
to the feed rendering mechanism, bypassing the xml parsing mechanism that
would read the processing instruction for the transformation file, access
this file, to then render accordingly.  This is one of those situations I
have had on my list to bring up to this group, and now that my time has
freed up quite a bit from other projects, coupled with your post, now seems
as good a time as any to start gaining some greater insite from the list
members as to what the proper way to handle this situation is. 
 
I don't want to propogate this particular solution until I can say for sure
that, in fact, it is the correct solution, but the simplest way I have found
that seems to make the most sense is to create two atom feeds, one with an
.xml extension, and one with an .atom extension, serving the .xml extension
as with an application/xml extension, and the .atom as application/atom+xml.

 
As a related side note: One of benefits I have discovered with IE7's general
approach to data feeds comes within the context of autodiscovery.  Here's
what the link elements look like in the head of my personal blog: 
 
<link rel="alternate" type="application/atom+xml"
title="XSLT:Blog/Main/@dataFeed" href="  <http://www.xsltblog.com/feed.atom>
http://www.xsltblog.com/feed.atom" /> 
<link rel="alternate" type="application/xml" title="XSLT:Blog/Main[@format =
'Atom']/@dataFeed" href="  <http://www.xsltblog.com/atom.xml>
http://www.xsltblog.com/atom.xml " />
<link rel="alternate" type="application/rdf+xml"
title="XSLT:Blog/Main[@format = 'RSS+RDF']/@dataFeed" href="
<http://www.xsltblog.com/index.rdf> http://www.xsltblog.com/index.rdf " />
<link rel="alternate" type="application/xml" title="XSLT:Blog/Main[@format =
'RSS 2.0']/@dataFeed" href="  <http://www.xsltblog.com/index.xml>
http://www.xsltblog.com/index.xml " />
 
If you visit http://www.xsltblog.com <http://www.xsltblog.com/>  in IE7 you
will notice that when you select the datafeed notification dropdown, it only
shows the first entry above, titled " XSLT:Blog/Main/@dataFeed ".  This
happens for the same reason as above:  application/atom+xml and
application/rss+xml MIME-types invoked the feed rendering engine, and the
same is true for autodiscovery links in the context of what IE7 will list as
a data feed and what it will not.  Of course, a simple way to ensure that
folks using IE7 are only shown the data feed formats you would prefer for
them to show is by setting the @type value of the non-prefered link elements
to application/xml, which is perfectly legal, and as such doesn't break
anything else that might not use the same type restraints. 
 
Of course, I'm not advocating this as something that should be implemented
such that your visitors are forced into some sort of proprietary type
thing...  But give the fact that Atom is a specification backed by both IETF
as well as the W3C, it seems to me that the only way to ensure that your
site visitors will not have to make changes and updates to their data feed
subscriptions is to focus on those that have gone through the full
standardization process, and as such companys like MS can build solutions
that they know are going to be compliant in 6 month, 6 years, and beyond.
Thats both reassuring to them AND most importantly, your site visitors. 
 

On 2/26/06, James Yenne <jamesy@softwareme.com
<mailto:jamesy@softwareme.com> > wrote: 

My feeds contain a generic xml-stylesheet, which formats the feed for
display along with a feed-specific css.  Since xsl processors do not have a
standard way to pass parameters to xsl stylesheets, I provide this
feed-specific css to the xsl processor in the feed as a link with
rel="stylesheet".  Generating xhtml with this xsl/css solution works for
rendering both in IE6 and FF1.5.  (Why does IE7 rip out xml-stylesheet
directives?)  
 
A link rel="stylesheet" seems to be the most efficient solution, however, a
fully qualified URI relation does the job too.   I would like to request a
stylesheet link relation be added to the IANA List of Relations and
supported in the validators.  Thoughts?  
 
Thanks,

James 




-- 
<M:D/>

M. David Peterson
http://www.xsltblog.com/  <http://www.xsltblog.com/> 




-- 
<M:D/>

M. David Peterson
http://www.xsltblog.com/ 

------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C63B24.0414C7D0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.5296.0" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D272310606-27022006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I'm "pre-caching" feeds as xml files and have =
not added=20
this mime type to the server, so no, they're served as text/xml.&nbsp; =
IE7=20
appears to recognize them as feeds because you can see it does its =
re-factor of=20
the Atom feed as RSS2.&nbsp; Why does IE7 convert Atom feeds to RSS2 and =
use the=20
Atom ns in the RSS2 feed?.&nbsp; I seem to have lost control of how my =
feed is=20
rendered in IE7.&nbsp; I can render per my own XSL in IE6 and =
FF1.5.&nbsp; Are=20
you saying that using application/atom+xml cause IE7 to keep the=20
xsl?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D272310606-27022006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D841321100-27022006><FONT face=3DArial><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff><FONT=20
size=3D2>The links in the generated RSS2 are broken: when I mouse over =
links, it=20
doesn't include anything after the domain&nbsp;<SPAN=20
class=3D963383700-27022006>(.com) </SPAN>in the url<SPAN=20
class=3D963383700-27022006>.&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3D963383700-27022006>S</SPAN>o&nbsp;<SPAN =
class=3D963383700-27022006>if an=20
entry link href contains search parameters, it's chopped off<SPAN=20
class=3D272310606-27022006>.&nbsp; Inspecting the raw xml, however, the =
search=20
parameters are still present, so IE seems to have a=20
bug.</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D841321100-27022006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D841321100-27022006><SPAN class=3D963383700-27022006>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D272310606-27022006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>The IE7 conversion from Atom to RSS2 also =
doesn't pass the=20
feed validators... here's an example validated Atom feed, and the IE7 =
RSS2=20
conversion creates a channel that does not =
validate:</FONT></SPAN></DIV><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Dates&nbsp;<SPAN =
class=3D272310606-27022006>are=20
</SPAN>left in the atom ns<SPAN class=3D272310606-27022006>, but=20
</SPAN>are&nbsp;<SPAN class=3D272310606-27022006>not </SPAN>rendered as =
rfc3339,=20
but rather converted to rfc822<SPAN class=3D272310606-27022006>;</SPAN> =
an email=20
address is not included in the&nbsp;<SPAN =
class=3D272310606-27022006>RSS2</SPAN>=20
managing editor as required, but&nbsp;<SPAN=20
class=3D272310606-27022006>exists</SPAN> in the Atom feed =
author/email,&nbsp;<SPAN=20
class=3D272310606-27022006>and more</SPAN>.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D841321100-27022006><SPAN=20
class=3D963383700-27022006></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D841321100-27022006>
<LI>
<P><A=20
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpublic.acti=
vera.com%2FIE8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l2">line=20
2</A>, column 252: <SPAN class=3Dmessage>managingEditor must include an =
email=20
address</SPAN> [<A title=3D"more information about this error"=20
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/InvalidContact.html">help</A>=
]</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>... =
&nbsp;GMT&lt;/pubDate&gt;&lt;managingEditor&gt;Shop&lt;/managingEditor&gt=
;&lt;atom:author&gt;&lt;a =
...<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SPAN =
class=3Dmarker>^</SPAN></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<LI>
<P><A=20
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpublic.acti=
vera.com%2FIE8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l2">line=20
2</A>, column 269: <SPAN class=3Dmessage>Undefined channel element:=20
atom:author</SPAN> [<A title=3D"more information about this error"=20
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/UndefinedElement.html">help</=
A>]</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>... =
nagingEditor&gt;Shop&lt;/managingEditor&gt;&lt;atom:author&gt;&lt;atom:na=
me&gt;Sh =
...<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SPAN =
class=3Dmarker>^</SPAN></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<LI>
<P><A=20
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpublic.acti=
vera.com%2FIE8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l2">line=20
2</A>, column 370: <SPAN class=3Dmessage>Undefined channel element: =
guid</SPAN>=20
[<A title=3D"more information about this error"=20
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/UndefinedElement.html">help</=
A>]</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>... =
esy@gorge.net&lt;/atom:email&gt;&lt;/atom:author&gt;&lt;guid =
isPermaLink=3D"false"&gt;urn:gu =
...<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SPAN =
class=3Dmarker>^</SPAN></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<LI>
<P><A=20
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpublic.acti=
vera.com%2FIE8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l2">line=20
2</A>, column 643: <SPAN class=3Dmessage>Unexpected uri attribute on =
generator=20
element</SPAN> [<A title=3D"more information about this error"=20
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/UnexpectedAttribute.html">hel=
p</A>]</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>... .css" rel=3D"stylesheet" =
type=3D"text/css"/&gt;&lt;generator uri=3D"urn:activera-com =
...<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SPAN =
class=3Dmarker>^</SPAN></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<LI>
<P><A=20
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpublic.acti=
vera.com%2FIE8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l8">line=20
8</A>, column 181: <SPAN class=3Dmessage>atom:published must be an =
RFC-3339=20
date-time</SPAN> (3 occurrences) [<A title=3D"more information about =
this error"=20
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/InvalidRFC3339Date.html">help=
</A>]</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>... 2005/Atom"&gt;Sun, 26 Feb 2006 14:35:04 =
GMT&lt;/atom:published&gt;&lt;author&gt;S =
...<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SPAN =
class=3Dmarker>^</SPAN></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<LI>
<P><A=20
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpublic.acti=
vera.com%2FIE8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l8">line=20
8</A>, column 216: <SPAN class=3Dmessage>author must include an email=20
address</SPAN> (3 occurrences) [<A title=3D"more information about this =
error"=20
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/InvalidContact.html">help</A>=
]</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>... 4 =
GMT&lt;/atom:published&gt;&lt;author&gt;Shop&lt;/author&gt;&lt;atom:autho=
r xmlns:atom =
...<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SPAN =
class=3Dmarker>^</SPAN></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<LI>
<P><A=20
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpublic.acti=
vera.com%2FIE8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l8">line=20
8</A>, column 445: <SPAN class=3Dmessage>Undefined item element: =
atom:link</SPAN>=20
(6 occurrences) [<A title=3D"more information about this error"=20
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/UndefinedElement.html">help</=
A>]</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>... =
904ca-3e80-4c74-8a62-926fa83405ac&lt;/guid&gt;&lt;atom:link =
xmlns:atom=3D"http://ww =
...<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SPAN =
class=3Dmarker>^</SPAN></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<LI>
<P><A=20
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpublic.acti=
vera.com%2FIE8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l8">line=20
8</A>, column 854: <SPAN class=3Dmessage>Unexpected type attribute on =
description=20
element</SPAN> (3 occurrences) [<A title=3D"more information about this =
error"=20
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/UnexpectedAttribute.html">hel=
p</A>]</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>... ype=3D"application/xml" =
title=3D"Location"/&gt;&lt;description type=3D"html"&gt;&amp;lt;div =
...<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SPAN =
class=3Dmarker>^</SPAN></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<LI>
<P><A=20
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpublic.acti=
vera.com%2FIE8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l19">line=20
19</A>, column 74: <SPAN class=3Dmessage>Missing channel element:=20
description</SPAN> [<A title=3D"more information about this error"=20
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/MissingDescription.html">help=
</A>]</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>		=
&amp;lt;/div&amp;gt;&lt;/description&gt;&lt;cf:id&gt;2&lt;/cf:id&gt;&lt;c=
f:read&gt;true&lt;/cf:read&gt;&lt;/item&gt;&lt;/ =
...<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SPAN class=3Dmarker>^</SPAN></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<LI>
<P><A=20
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpublic.acti=
vera.com%2FIE8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l19">line=20
19</A>, column 74: <SPAN class=3Dmessage>Missing channel element: =
link</SPAN> [<A=20
title=3D"more information about this error"=20
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/MissingLink.html">help</A>]</=
P>
<BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>		=
&amp;lt;/div&amp;gt;&lt;/description&gt;&lt;cf:id&gt;2&lt;/cf:id&gt;&lt;c=
f:read&gt;true&lt;/cf:read&gt;&lt;/item&gt;&lt;/ =
...</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN></FONT></LI></DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> M. David Peterson=20
[mailto:xmlhacker@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 26, 2006 =
8:53=20
PM<BR><B>To:</B> James Yenne<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
atom-syntax@imc.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Link rel attribute=20
"stylesheet"<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>correction:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc =
1px solid">serving=20
  the .xml extension as with an application/xml extension</BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>should read: serving the .xml extension as with an application/xml =
MIME-type=20
(bunch of other spelling and grammar errors, but I would rather not =
waste=20
everyones time showcasing something most already know... a first take at =
most=20
anything I write tends to send the spell checking engine into fits of =
fury... so=20
I save my CPU cycles for take two and beyond :) </P>
<DIV><BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 2/26/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>M. David=20
Peterson</B> &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:xmlhacker@gmail.com">xmlhacker@gmail.com</A>&gt; =
wrote:</SPAN>=20
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc =
1px solid">
  <DIV>Neat idea :)</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>&gt; Why does IE7 rip out xml-stylesheet=20
  directives.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>I can only assume your server is serving up the atom file =
(correctly) as=20
  application/atom+xml?&nbsp; If yes, application/atom+xml is transfered =

  directly to the feed rendering mechanism, bypassing the xml parsing =
mechanism=20
  that would read the processing instruction for the transformation =
file, access=20
  this file, to then render accordingly.&nbsp; This is one of those =
situations I=20
  have&nbsp;had on my list&nbsp;to bring up to this group, and now that =
my time=20
  has freed up quite a bit from other projects, coupled with your post, =
now=20
  seems as good a time as any to start gaining some greater insite from =
the list=20
  members as to what the proper way to handle this situation is. </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>I don't want to propogate this particular solution until I can =
say for=20
  sure that, in fact, it is the correct solution, but the simplest way I =
have=20
  found that seems to make the most sense is to create two atom feeds, =
one with=20
  an .xml extension, and one with an .atom extension, serving the .xml =
extension=20
  as with an application/xml extension, and the .atom as =
application/atom+xml.=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>As a related side note: One of benefits I have discovered with =
IE7's=20
  general approach to data feeds comes within the context of=20
  autodiscovery.&nbsp; Here's what the link elements look like in the =
head of my=20
  personal blog: </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&lt;link rel=3D"alternate" type=3D"application/atom+xml"=20
  title=3D"XSLT:Blog/Main/@dataFeed" href=3D"<A=20
  onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/feed.atom" target=3D_blank>=20
  http://www.xsltblog.com/feed.atom</A>" /&gt; <BR>&lt;link =
rel=3D"alternate"=20
  type=3D"application/xml" title=3D"XSLT:Blog/Main[@format =3D =
'Atom']/@dataFeed"=20
  href=3D"<A onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/atom.xml" target=3D_blank>=20
  http://www.xsltblog.com/atom.xml</A> " /&gt;<BR>&lt;link =
rel=3D"alternate"=20
  type=3D"application/rdf+xml" title=3D"XSLT:Blog/Main[@format =3D=20
  'RSS+RDF']/@dataFeed" href=3D"<A=20
  onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/index.rdf" target=3D_blank>=20
  http://www.xsltblog.com/index.rdf </A>" /&gt;<BR>&lt;link =
rel=3D"alternate"=20
  type=3D"application/xml" title=3D"XSLT:Blog/Main[@format =3D 'RSS =
2.0']/@dataFeed"=20
  href=3D"<A onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/index.xml" target=3D_blank>=20
  http://www.xsltblog.com/index.xml </A>" /&gt;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>If you visit <A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/" =
target=3D_blank>http://www.xsltblog.com</A> in=20
  IE7 you will notice that when you select the datafeed notification =
dropdown,=20
  it only shows the first entry above, titled " XSLT:Blog/Main/@dataFeed =

  ".&nbsp; This&nbsp;happens for the same reason as above:&nbsp;=20
  application/atom+xml&nbsp;and application/rss+xml&nbsp;MIME-types =
invoked the=20
  feed rendering engine, and the same is true for autodiscovery links in =
the=20
  context of what IE7 will list as a data feed and what it will =
not.&nbsp; Of=20
  course, a simple way to ensure that folks using IE7 are only shown the =
data=20
  feed formats you would prefer for them to show is by setting the @type =
value=20
  of the non-prefered link elements to application/xml, which is =
perfectly=20
  legal, and as such doesn't break anything else that might not use the =
same=20
  type restraints. </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Of course, I'm not advocating this as something that should be=20
  implemented such that your visitors are forced into some sort of =
proprietary=20
  type thing...&nbsp; But give the fact that&nbsp;Atom is a =
specification backed=20
  by both IETF as well as the W3C, it seems to me that the only way to =
ensure=20
  that your site visitors will not have to make changes and updates to =
their=20
  data feed subscriptions is to focus on those that have gone through =
the full=20
  standardization process, and as such companys like MS can build =
solutions that=20
  they know are going to be compliant in 6 month, 6 years, and =
beyond.&nbsp;=20
  Thats both reassuring to them AND most importantly, your site =
visitors.=20
  <BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3De id=3Dq_109a9d438b1d285c_1>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 2/26/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>James=20
  Yenne</B> &lt;<A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"mailto:jamesy@softwareme.com" =
target=3D_blank>jamesy@softwareme.com=20
  </A>&gt; wrote:</SPAN>=20
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
#ccc 1px solid">
    <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My feeds contain a generic=20
    xml-stylesheet, which formats the feed for display along with a=20
    feed-specific css.&nbsp; </FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Since=20
    xsl processors do not have a standard way to pass parameters to xsl=20
    stylesheets, I provide this feed-specific css to the xsl processor =
in the=20
    feed as a link with rel=3D"stylesheet".&nbsp; Generating xhtml with =
this=20
    xsl/css solution works for rendering both in IE6 and FF1.5.&nbsp; =
(Why does=20
    IE7 rip out xml-stylesheet directives?)&nbsp; </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A&nbsp;link =
rel=3D"stylesheet" seems to be=20
    the most efficient solution, however, a fully qualified URI relation =
does=20
    the job too.&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2> I would=20
    like to request a stylesheet link relation be added to the IANA List =
of=20
    Relations and supported in the validators.&nbsp; <SPAN><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2>Thoughts?&nbsp; </FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></SPAN></DIV><SPAN>
    <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>James=20
  </FONT></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR=20
  clear=3Dall><BR></SPAN></DIV><SPAN class=3Dsg>-- =
<BR>&lt;M:D/&gt;<BR><BR>M. David=20
  Peterson<BR><A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/" =
target=3D_blank>http://www.xsltblog.com/=20
  </A></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR clear=3Dall><BR>--=20
<BR>&lt;M:D/&gt;<BR><BR>M. David Peterson<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/">http://www.xsltblog.com/</A> =
</BODY></HTML>

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Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 23:49:40 -0700
From: "M. David Peterson" <xmlhacker@gmail.com>
To: "James Yenne" <jamesy@softwareme.com>
Subject: Re: Link rel attribute "stylesheet"
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From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Feb 27 02:07:03 2006
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From: "James Yenne" <jamesy@softwareme.com>
To: "'M. David Peterson'" <xmlhacker@gmail.com>
Cc: <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: RE: Link rel attribute "stylesheet" (resend)
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 22:50:58 -0800
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I'm "pre-caching" feeds as xml files and have not added this mime type to
the server, so no, they're served as text/xml.  IE7 appears to recognize
them as feeds because you can see it does its re-factor of the Atom feed as
RSS2.  Why does IE7 convert Atom feeds to RSS2 and use the Atom ns in the
RSS2 feed?.  I seem to have lost control of how my feed is rendered in IE7.
I can render per my own XSL in IE6 and FF1.5.  Are you saying that using
application/atom+xml cause IE7 to keep the xsl?
 
The links in the generated RSS2 are broken: when I mouse over links, it
doesn't include anything after the domain (.com) in the url.  So if an entry
link href contains search parameters, it's chopped off.  Inspecting the raw
xml, however, the search parameters are still present, so IE seems to have a
bug.
 
The IE7 conversion from Atom to RSS2 also doesn't pass the feed
validators... here's an example validated Atom feed, and the IE7 RSS2
conversion creates a channel that does not validate:
Dates are left in the atom ns, but are not rendered as rfc3339, but rather
converted to rfc822; an email address is not included in the RSS2 managing
editor as required, but exists in the Atom feed author/email, and more.
 
 
  _____  

From: M. David Peterson [mailto:xmlhacker@gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 8:53 PM
To: James Yenne
Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: Link rel attribute "stylesheet"


correction:
 

serving the .xml extension as with an application/xml extension

should read: serving the .xml extension as with an application/xml MIME-type
(bunch of other spelling and grammar errors, but I would rather not waste
everyones time showcasing something most already know... a first take at
most anything I write tends to send the spell checking engine into fits of
fury... so I save my CPU cycles for take two and beyond :) 



 
On 2/26/06, M. David Peterson <xmlhacker@gmail.com> wrote: 

Neat idea :)
 
> Why does IE7 rip out xml-stylesheet directives.
I can only assume your server is serving up the atom file (correctly) as
application/atom+xml?  If yes, application/atom+xml is transfered directly
to the feed rendering mechanism, bypassing the xml parsing mechanism that
would read the processing instruction for the transformation file, access
this file, to then render accordingly.  This is one of those situations I
have had on my list to bring up to this group, and now that my time has
freed up quite a bit from other projects, coupled with your post, now seems
as good a time as any to start gaining some greater insite from the list
members as to what the proper way to handle this situation is. 
 
I don't want to propogate this particular solution until I can say for sure
that, in fact, it is the correct solution, but the simplest way I have found
that seems to make the most sense is to create two atom feeds, one with an
.xml extension, and one with an .atom extension, serving the .xml extension
as with an application/xml extension, and the .atom as application/atom+xml.

 
As a related side note: One of benefits I have discovered with IE7's general
approach to data feeds comes within the context of autodiscovery.  Here's
what the link elements look like in the head of my personal blog: 
 
<link rel="alternate" type="application/atom+xml"
title="XSLT:Blog/Main/@dataFeed" href="  <http://www.xsltblog.com/feed.atom>
http://www.xsltblog.com/feed.atom" /> 
<link rel="alternate" type="application/xml" title="XSLT:Blog/Main[@format =
'Atom']/@dataFeed" href="  <http://www.xsltblog.com/atom.xml>
http://www.xsltblog.com/atom.xml " />
<link rel="alternate" type="application/rdf+xml"
title="XSLT:Blog/Main[@format = 'RSS+RDF']/@dataFeed" href="
<http://www.xsltblog.com/index.rdf> http://www.xsltblog.com/index.rdf " />
<link rel="alternate" type="application/xml" title="XSLT:Blog/Main[@format =
'RSS 2.0']/@dataFeed" href="  <http://www.xsltblog.com/index.xml>
http://www.xsltblog.com/index.xml " />
 
If you visit http://www.xsltblog.com <http://www.xsltblog.com/>  in IE7 you
will notice that when you select the datafeed notification dropdown, it only
shows the first entry above, titled " XSLT:Blog/Main/@dataFeed ".  This
happens for the same reason as above:  application/atom+xml and
application/rss+xml MIME-types invoked the feed rendering engine, and the
same is true for autodiscovery links in the context of what IE7 will list as
a data feed and what it will not.  Of course, a simple way to ensure that
folks using IE7 are only shown the data feed formats you would prefer for
them to show is by setting the @type value of the non-prefered link elements
to application/xml, which is perfectly legal, and as such doesn't break
anything else that might not use the same type restraints. 
 
Of course, I'm not advocating this as something that should be implemented
such that your visitors are forced into some sort of proprietary type
thing...  But give the fact that Atom is a specification backed by both IETF
as well as the W3C, it seems to me that the only way to ensure that your
site visitors will not have to make changes and updates to their data feed
subscriptions is to focus on those that have gone through the full
standardization process, and as such companys like MS can build solutions
that they know are going to be compliant in 6 month, 6 years, and beyond.
Thats both reassuring to them AND most importantly, your site visitors. 
 

On 2/26/06, James Yenne <jamesy@softwareme.com
<mailto:jamesy@softwareme.com> > wrote: 

My feeds contain a generic xml-stylesheet, which formats the feed for
display along with a feed-specific css.  Since xsl processors do not have a
standard way to pass parameters to xsl stylesheets, I provide this
feed-specific css to the xsl processor in the feed as a link with
rel="stylesheet".  Generating xhtml with this xsl/css solution works for
rendering both in IE6 and FF1.5.  (Why does IE7 rip out xml-stylesheet
directives?)  
 
A link rel="stylesheet" seems to be the most efficient solution, however, a
fully qualified URI relation does the job too.   I would like to request a
stylesheet link relation be added to the IANA List of Relations and
supported in the validators.  Thoughts?  
 
Thanks,

James 




-- 
<M:D/>

M. David Peterson
http://www.xsltblog.com/  <http://www.xsltblog.com/> 




-- 
<M:D/>

M. David Peterson
http://www.xsltblog.com/ 

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.5296.0" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D272310606-27022006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I'm "pre-caching" feeds as xml files and have =
not added=20
this mime type to the server, so no, they're served as text/xml.&nbsp; =
IE7=20
appears to recognize them as feeds because you can see it does its =
re-factor of=20
the Atom feed as RSS2.&nbsp; Why does IE7 convert Atom feeds to RSS2 and =
use the=20
Atom ns in the RSS2 feed?.&nbsp; I seem to have lost control of how my =
feed is=20
rendered in IE7.&nbsp; I can render per my own XSL in IE6 and =
FF1.5.&nbsp; Are=20
you saying that using application/atom+xml cause IE7 to keep the=20
xsl?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D272310606-27022006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D841321100-27022006><FONT face=3DArial><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff><FONT=20
size=3D2>The links in the generated RSS2 are broken: when I mouse over =
links, it=20
doesn't include anything after the domain&nbsp;<SPAN=20
class=3D963383700-27022006>(.com) </SPAN>in the url<SPAN=20
class=3D963383700-27022006>.&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3D963383700-27022006>S</SPAN>o&nbsp;<SPAN =
class=3D963383700-27022006>if an=20
entry link href contains search parameters, it's chopped off<SPAN=20
class=3D272310606-27022006>.&nbsp; Inspecting the raw xml, however, the =
search=20
parameters are still present, so IE seems to have a=20
bug.</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D841321100-27022006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D841321100-27022006><SPAN class=3D963383700-27022006>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D272310606-27022006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>The IE7 conversion from Atom to RSS2 also =
doesn't pass the=20
feed validators... here's an example validated Atom feed, and the IE7 =
RSS2=20
conversion creates a channel that does not =
validate:</FONT></SPAN></DIV><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Dates&nbsp;<SPAN =
class=3D272310606-27022006>are=20
</SPAN>left in the atom ns<SPAN class=3D272310606-27022006>, but=20
</SPAN>are&nbsp;<SPAN class=3D272310606-27022006>not </SPAN>rendered as =
rfc3339,=20
but rather converted to rfc822<SPAN class=3D272310606-27022006>;</SPAN> =
an email=20
address is not included in the&nbsp;<SPAN =
class=3D272310606-27022006>RSS2</SPAN>=20
managing editor as required, but&nbsp;<SPAN=20
class=3D272310606-27022006>exists</SPAN> in the Atom feed =
author/email,&nbsp;<SPAN=20
class=3D272310606-27022006>and =
more</SPAN>.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> M. David Peterson=20
[mailto:xmlhacker@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 26, 2006 =
8:53=20
PM<BR><B>To:</B> James Yenne<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
atom-syntax@imc.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Link rel attribute=20
"stylesheet"<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>correction:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc =
1px solid">serving=20
  the .xml extension as with an application/xml extension</BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>should read: serving the .xml extension as with an application/xml =
MIME-type=20
(bunch of other spelling and grammar errors, but I would rather not =
waste=20
everyones time showcasing something most already know... a first take at =
most=20
anything I write tends to send the spell checking engine into fits of =
fury... so=20
I save my CPU cycles for take two and beyond :) </P>
<DIV><BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 2/26/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>M. David=20
Peterson</B> &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:xmlhacker@gmail.com">xmlhacker@gmail.com</A>&gt; =
wrote:</SPAN>=20
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc =
1px solid">
  <DIV>Neat idea :)</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>&gt; Why does IE7 rip out xml-stylesheet=20
  directives.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>I can only assume your server is serving up the atom file =
(correctly) as=20
  application/atom+xml?&nbsp; If yes, application/atom+xml is transfered =

  directly to the feed rendering mechanism, bypassing the xml parsing =
mechanism=20
  that would read the processing instruction for the transformation =
file, access=20
  this file, to then render accordingly.&nbsp; This is one of those =
situations I=20
  have&nbsp;had on my list&nbsp;to bring up to this group, and now that =
my time=20
  has freed up quite a bit from other projects, coupled with your post, =
now=20
  seems as good a time as any to start gaining some greater insite from =
the list=20
  members as to what the proper way to handle this situation is. </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>I don't want to propogate this particular solution until I can =
say for=20
  sure that, in fact, it is the correct solution, but the simplest way I =
have=20
  found that seems to make the most sense is to create two atom feeds, =
one with=20
  an .xml extension, and one with an .atom extension, serving the .xml =
extension=20
  as with an application/xml extension, and the .atom as =
application/atom+xml.=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>As a related side note: One of benefits I have discovered with =
IE7's=20
  general approach to data feeds comes within the context of=20
  autodiscovery.&nbsp; Here's what the link elements look like in the =
head of my=20
  personal blog: </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&lt;link rel=3D"alternate" type=3D"application/atom+xml"=20
  title=3D"XSLT:Blog/Main/@dataFeed" href=3D"<A=20
  onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/feed.atom" target=3D_blank>=20
  http://www.xsltblog.com/feed.atom</A>" /&gt; <BR>&lt;link =
rel=3D"alternate"=20
  type=3D"application/xml" title=3D"XSLT:Blog/Main[@format =3D =
'Atom']/@dataFeed"=20
  href=3D"<A onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/atom.xml" target=3D_blank>=20
  http://www.xsltblog.com/atom.xml</A> " /&gt;<BR>&lt;link =
rel=3D"alternate"=20
  type=3D"application/rdf+xml" title=3D"XSLT:Blog/Main[@format =3D=20
  'RSS+RDF']/@dataFeed" href=3D"<A=20
  onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/index.rdf" target=3D_blank>=20
  http://www.xsltblog.com/index.rdf </A>" /&gt;<BR>&lt;link =
rel=3D"alternate"=20
  type=3D"application/xml" title=3D"XSLT:Blog/Main[@format =3D 'RSS =
2.0']/@dataFeed"=20
  href=3D"<A onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/index.xml" target=3D_blank>=20
  http://www.xsltblog.com/index.xml </A>" /&gt;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>If you visit <A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/" =
target=3D_blank>http://www.xsltblog.com</A> in=20
  IE7 you will notice that when you select the datafeed notification =
dropdown,=20
  it only shows the first entry above, titled " XSLT:Blog/Main/@dataFeed =

  ".&nbsp; This&nbsp;happens for the same reason as above:&nbsp;=20
  application/atom+xml&nbsp;and application/rss+xml&nbsp;MIME-types =
invoked the=20
  feed rendering engine, and the same is true for autodiscovery links in =
the=20
  context of what IE7 will list as a data feed and what it will =
not.&nbsp; Of=20
  course, a simple way to ensure that folks using IE7 are only shown the =
data=20
  feed formats you would prefer for them to show is by setting the @type =
value=20
  of the non-prefered link elements to application/xml, which is =
perfectly=20
  legal, and as such doesn't break anything else that might not use the =
same=20
  type restraints. </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Of course, I'm not advocating this as something that should be=20
  implemented such that your visitors are forced into some sort of =
proprietary=20
  type thing...&nbsp; But give the fact that&nbsp;Atom is a =
specification backed=20
  by both IETF as well as the W3C, it seems to me that the only way to =
ensure=20
  that your site visitors will not have to make changes and updates to =
their=20
  data feed subscriptions is to focus on those that have gone through =
the full=20
  standardization process, and as such companys like MS can build =
solutions that=20
  they know are going to be compliant in 6 month, 6 years, and =
beyond.&nbsp;=20
  Thats both reassuring to them AND most importantly, your site =
visitors.=20
  <BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3De id=3Dq_109a9d438b1d285c_1>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 2/26/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>James=20
  Yenne</B> &lt;<A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"mailto:jamesy@softwareme.com" =
target=3D_blank>jamesy@softwareme.com=20
  </A>&gt; wrote:</SPAN>=20
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
#ccc 1px solid">
    <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My feeds contain a generic=20
    xml-stylesheet, which formats the feed for display along with a=20
    feed-specific css.&nbsp; </FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Since=20
    xsl processors do not have a standard way to pass parameters to xsl=20
    stylesheets, I provide this feed-specific css to the xsl processor =
in the=20
    feed as a link with rel=3D"stylesheet".&nbsp; Generating xhtml with =
this=20
    xsl/css solution works for rendering both in IE6 and FF1.5.&nbsp; =
(Why does=20
    IE7 rip out xml-stylesheet directives?)&nbsp; </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A&nbsp;link =
rel=3D"stylesheet" seems to be=20
    the most efficient solution, however, a fully qualified URI relation =
does=20
    the job too.&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2> I would=20
    like to request a stylesheet link relation be added to the IANA List =
of=20
    Relations and supported in the validators.&nbsp; <SPAN><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2>Thoughts?&nbsp; </FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></SPAN></DIV><SPAN>
    <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>James=20
  </FONT></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR=20
  clear=3Dall><BR></SPAN></DIV><SPAN class=3Dsg>-- =
<BR>&lt;M:D/&gt;<BR><BR>M. David=20
  Peterson<BR><A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/" =
target=3D_blank>http://www.xsltblog.com/=20
  </A></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR clear=3Dall><BR>--=20
<BR>&lt;M:D/&gt;<BR><BR>M. David Peterson<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/">http://www.xsltblog.com/</A> =
</BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C63B27.1C83A270--




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From: Antone Roundy <antone@geckotribe.com>
Subject: Re: Link rel attribute "stylesheet"
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 08:05:29 -0700
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On Feb 26, 2006, at 9:10 PM, James Yenne wrote:
> My feeds contain a generic xml-stylesheet, which formats the feed  
> for display along with a feed-specific css.  Since xsl processors  
> do not have a standard way to pass parameters to xsl stylesheets, I  
> provide this feed-specific css to the xsl processor in the feed as  
> a link with rel="stylesheet".  Generating xhtml with this xsl/css  
> solution works for rendering both in IE6 and FF1.5.  (Why does IE7  
> rip out xml-stylesheet directives?)
>
> A link rel="stylesheet" seems to be the most efficient solution,  
> however, a fully qualified URI relation does the job too.  I would  
> like to request a stylesheet link relation be added to the IANA  
> List of Relations and supported in the validators.  Thoughts?

One problem with this is that there's no machine readable way without  
an extension attribute to indicate what format the stylesheet is  
going to transform the data to.  If you're going to add an extension  
attribute, I'd suggest just making the whole thing an extension  
element instead.

Of course, my opinion is partly based on my preference which was  
rejected by the group for limiting the link element to links intended  
for traversal, so maybe that doesn't matter.  But certainly the  
possibility should be considered that this is stretching the use of  
the link element beyond what it was designed for.

Antone




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From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Feb 27 11:18:06 2006
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From: "James Yenne" <jamesy@softwareme.com>
To: "'Antone Roundy'" <antone@geckotribe.com>, <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: RE: Link rel attribute "stylesheet"
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 08:03:39 -0800
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I think what you're asking is, what's the resulting document's type or
!DOCTYPE?  In my case, the xsl supplied in the xml-stylesheet directive does
the transformation and the resulting document is (strict) xhtml with the
correct doctype.  Perhaps the CSS2 "media" attribute, if added to Atom links
would provide this cue about the format...  E.g. media="print, handheld".  

Re an extension element, this all works (is valid) if the link rel is an
IRI, so an extension is not needed.  I was looking for other use cases for a
stylesheet link rel., such as the feed entry case, to bolster a position to
have stylesheet added to the List of Relations.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org]
On Behalf Of Antone Roundy
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 7:05 AM
To: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: Link rel attribute "stylesheet"


On Feb 26, 2006, at 9:10 PM, James Yenne wrote:
> My feeds contain a generic xml-stylesheet, which formats the feed for 
> display along with a feed-specific css.  Since xsl processors do not 
> have a standard way to pass parameters to xsl stylesheets, I provide 
> this feed-specific css to the xsl processor in the feed as a link with 
> rel="stylesheet".  Generating xhtml with this xsl/css solution works 
> for rendering both in IE6 and FF1.5.  (Why does IE7 rip out 
> xml-stylesheet directives?)
>
> A link rel="stylesheet" seems to be the most efficient solution, 
> however, a fully qualified URI relation does the job too.  I would 
> like to request a stylesheet link relation be added to the IANA List 
> of Relations and supported in the validators.  Thoughts?

One problem with this is that there's no machine readable way without an
extension attribute to indicate what format the stylesheet is going to
transform the data to.  If you're going to add an extension attribute, I'd
suggest just making the whole thing an extension element instead.

Of course, my opinion is partly based on my preference which was rejected by
the group for limiting the link element to links intended for traversal, so
maybe that doesn't matter.  But certainly the possibility should be
considered that this is stretching the use of the link element beyond what
it was designed for.

Antone





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Subject: Re: Link rel attribute "stylesheet"
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James Yenne wrote:
>[snip]
> correct doctype.  Perhaps the CSS2 "media" attribute, if added to Atom links
> would provide this cue about the format...  E.g. media="print, handheld".  
> 

Take a look at
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-link-extensions-02.txt

It's completely experimental at this point, but does include a media
attribute adapted from (x)html.

- James




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From: "James Yenne" <jamesy@softwareme.com>
To: "'M. David Peterson'" <xmlhacker@gmail.com>
Cc: <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: IE7 Atom Handling (was RE: Link rel attribute "stylesheet")
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 09:37:29 -0800
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For anyone interested, I created a validated Atom feed that
(http://softwareme.com/ie7test.xml) exhibits the problems with IE's refactor
as RSS2.  After hitting the IE7 Subscribe button, the feed is then converted
to RSS2 (http://softwareme.com/ie7testsubscribed.xml), which doesn't
validate
(http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsoftwareme.com%2Fie7tes
tsubscribed.xml) although still works in IE.  
 
I would imagine this is important when you start using the MS API and figure
out things are wrong or missing, e.g. atom:published in rfc822 format, etc.
 
The other problem seems to be that IE7 doesn't allow or use in the same way
the xml-stylesheet directive - its stripped off.  FF1.5 and IE6 render using
the supplied xml-stylesheet directive, as can be seen using
http://www.atomenabled.org/atom.xml
 
Note: This test feed does not include the xsl/css solution I'm using.
 
  _____  

From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org]
On Behalf Of M. David Peterson
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 10:50 PM
To: James Yenne
Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: Link rel attribute "stylesheet"


If you quickly check the list archives you will notice that this very
conversation is taking place directly with members of the IE7/RSS team.  The
short of it is that that MS is taking the RSS '2.0' format and extending it
in areas necessary to allow for what will eventually be a 1:1 mapping,
without data corruption or fidelity loss.  I've written a follow-up piece to
this conversation directed towards the IE7/RSS folks, of which you can find
here > http://www.xsltblog.com/archives/2006/02/this_is_a_call.html <  While
the post I think brings out some important points, recent comments led to
what I believe is a bit more interesting in regards to the mindset of a lot
of folks in that they simply do not understand what the inherent issues with
RSS ' 2.0' are and how and why the Atom specification  fixes these problems.
If there was ever a more crucial moment in time to bring these points into
an easily accessible and recognizable domainm which provided a consolidated,
well linked, and well documented summary of the available content, now would
be that time. 
 
In fact, after recording with Kurt (Cagle) our next podcast tonight, I will
be finishing off a wiki in which anyone can then easily access and update as
they see fit, with this exact purpose in mind.  Using a domain that I think
fits quite well into this general topic, it will be found at
http://www.understandingatom.com/ when complete.  When all is said and done
I then plan to create a blog post to on my O'Reilly blog such that the
process of evangelizing this can be made known to the broad,
XML.com/OReillynet audience.
 
I'll ping back this list when its ready.
 
re: your XSLT PI problem with IE7.  Is the code live somewhere that is
accessible such that I can take a look at it and help you debug the problem?

 
On 2/26/06, James Yenne <jamesy@softwareme.com> wrote: 

I'm "pre-caching" feeds as xml files and have not added this mime type to
the server, so no, they're served as text/xml.  IE7 appears to recognize
them as feeds because you can see it does its re-factor of the Atom feed as
RSS2.  Why does IE7 convert Atom feeds to RSS2 and use the Atom ns in the
RSS2 feed?.  I seem to have lost control of how my feed is rendered in IE7.
I can render per my own XSL in IE6 and FF1.5.  Are you saying that using
application/atom+xml cause IE7 to keep the xsl?
 
The links in the generated RSS2 are broken: when I mouse over links, it
doesn't include anything after the domain (.com) in the url.   So if an
entry link href contains search parameters, it's chopped off.  Inspecting
the raw xml, however, the search parameters are still present, so IE seems
to have a bug. 
 

The IE7 conversion from Atom to RSS2 also doesn't pass the feed
validators... here's an example validated Atom feed, and the IE7 RSS2
conversion creates a channel that does not validate: 
Dates are left in the atom ns, but are not rendered as rfc3339, but rather
converted to rfc822; an email address is not included in the  RSS2 managing
editor as required, but exists in the Atom feed author/email, and more.
 
 

*	
line 2
<http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.activera.com%2FI
E8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l2> , column 252: managingEditor
must include an email address [
<http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/InvalidContact.html> help]

...  GMT</pubDate><managingEditor>Shop</managingEditor><atom:author><a ...
                                             ^

*	
line 2
<http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.activera.com%2FI
E8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l2> , column 269: Undefined
channel element: atom:author [ help
<http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/UndefinedElement.html> ]

... nagingEditor>Shop</managingEditor><atom:author><atom:name>Sh ...
                                             ^

*	
line 2
<http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.activera.com%2FI
E8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l2> , column 370: Undefined
channel element: guid [ help
<http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/UndefinedElement.html> ]

... esy@gorge.net</atom:email></atom:author><guid isPermaLink="false">urn:gu
...


                                             ^

*	
line 2
<http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.activera.com%2FI
E8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l2> , column 643: Unexpected uri
attribute on generator element [ help
<http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/UnexpectedAttribute.html> ]

... .css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css"/><generator uri="urn:activera-com
...
                                             ^

*	
line 8
<http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.activera.com%2FI
E8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l8> , column 181: atom:published
must be an RFC-3339 date-time (3 occurrences) [ help
<http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/InvalidRFC3339Date.html> ]

... 2005/Atom">Sun, 26 Feb 2006 14:35:04 GMT</atom:published><author>S ...
                                             ^

*	
line 8
<http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.activera.com%2FI
E8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l8> , column 216: author must
include an email address (3 occurrences) [
<http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/InvalidContact.html> help]

... 4 GMT</atom:published><author>Shop</author><atom:author xmlns:atom ...
                                             ^

*	
line 8
<http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.activera.com%2FI
E8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l8> , column 445: Undefined item
element: atom:link (6 occurrences) [ help
<http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/UndefinedElement.html> ]

... 904ca-3e80-4c74-8a62-926fa83405ac</guid><atom:link xmlns:atom="http://ww
<http://ww/>  ...
                                             

^

*	
line 8
<http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.activera.com%2FI
E8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l8> , column 854: Unexpected type
attribute on description element (3 occurrences) [ help
<http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/UnexpectedAttribute.html> ]

... ype="application/xml" title="Location"/><description type="html">&lt;div
...
                                             ^

*	
line 19
<http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.activera.com%2FI
E8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l19> , column 74: Missing channel
element: description [ help
<http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/MissingDescription.html> ]

	
&lt;/div&gt;</description><cf:id>2</cf:id><cf:read>true</cf:read></item></
...
                                                                          

^

*	
line 19
<http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.activera.com%2FI
E8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l19> , column 74: Missing channel
element: link [help  <http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/MissingLink.html>
]

	
&lt;/div&gt;</description><cf:id>2</cf:id><cf:read>true</cf:read></item></
...


 
  _____  

From: M. David Peterson [mailto:xmlhacker@gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 8:53 PM 
To: James Yenne
Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: Link rel attribute "stylesheet" 

 

correction:
 

serving the .xml extension as with an application/xml extension

should read: serving the .xml extension as with an application/xml MIME-type
(bunch of other spelling and grammar errors, but I would rather not waste
everyones time showcasing something most already know... a first take at
most anything I write tends to send the spell checking engine into fits of
fury... so I save my CPU cycles for take two and beyond :) 



 
On 2/26/06, M. David Peterson <xmlhacker@gmail.com
<mailto:xmlhacker@gmail.com> > wrote: 

Neat idea :)
 
> Why does IE7 rip out xml-stylesheet directives.
I can only assume your server is serving up the atom file (correctly) as
application/atom+xml?  If yes, application/atom+xml is transfered directly
to the feed rendering mechanism, bypassing the xml parsing mechanism that
would read the processing instruction for the transformation file, access
this file, to then render accordingly.  This is one of those situations I
have had on my list to bring up to this group, and now that my time has
freed up quite a bit from other projects, coupled with your post, now seems
as good a time as any to start gaining some greater insite from the list
members as to what the proper way to handle this situation is. 
 
I don't want to propogate this particular solution until I can say for sure
that, in fact, it is the correct solution, but the simplest way I have found
that seems to make the most sense is to create two atom feeds, one with an
.xml extension, and one with an .atom extension, serving the .xml extension
as with an application/xml extension, and the .atom as application/atom+xml.

 
As a related side note: One of benefits I have discovered with IE7's general
approach to data feeds comes within the context of autodiscovery.  Here's
what the link elements look like in the head of my personal blog: 
 
<link rel="alternate" type="application/atom+xml"
title="XSLT:Blog/Main/@dataFeed" href="  <http://www.xsltblog.com/feed.atom>
http://www.xsltblog.com/feed.atom" /> 
<link rel="alternate" type="application/xml" title="XSLT:Blog/Main[@format =
'Atom']/@dataFeed" href="  <http://www.xsltblog.com/atom.xml>
http://www.xsltblog.com/atom.xml " />
<link rel="alternate" type="application/rdf+xml"
title="XSLT:Blog/Main[@format = 'RSS+RDF']/@dataFeed" href="
<http://www.xsltblog.com/index.rdf> http://www.xsltblog.com/index.rdf " />
<link rel="alternate" type="application/xml" title="XSLT:Blog/Main[@format =
'RSS 2.0']/@dataFeed" href="  <http://www.xsltblog.com/index.xml>
http://www.xsltblog.com/index.xml " />
 
If you visit http://www.xsltblog.com <http://www.xsltblog.com/>  in IE7 you
will notice that when you select the datafeed notification dropdown, it only
shows the first entry above, titled " XSLT:Blog/Main/@dataFeed ".  This
happens for the same reason as above:  application/atom+xml and
application/rss+xml MIME-types invoked the feed rendering engine, and the
same is true for autodiscovery links in the context of what IE7 will list as
a data feed and what it will not.  Of course, a simple way to ensure that
folks using IE7 are only shown the data feed formats you would prefer for
them to show is by setting the @type value of the non-prefered link elements
to application/xml, which is perfectly legal, and as such doesn't break
anything else that might not use the same type restraints. 
 
Of course, I'm not advocating this as something that should be implemented
such that your visitors are forced into some sort of proprietary type
thing...  But give the fact that Atom is a specification backed by both IETF
as well as the W3C, it seems to me that the only way to ensure that your
site visitors will not have to make changes and updates to their data feed
subscriptions is to focus on those that have gone through the full
standardization process, and as such companys like MS can build solutions
that they know are going to be compliant in 6 month, 6 years, and beyond.
Thats both reassuring to them AND most importantly, your site visitors. 
 

On 2/26/06, James Yenne <jamesy@softwareme.com
<mailto:jamesy@softwareme.com> > wrote: 

My feeds contain a generic xml-stylesheet, which formats the feed for
display along with a feed-specific css.  Since xsl processors do not have a
standard way to pass parameters to xsl stylesheets, I provide this
feed-specific css to the xsl processor in the feed as a link with
rel="stylesheet".  Generating xhtml with this xsl/css solution works for
rendering both in IE6 and FF1.5.  (Why does IE7 rip out xml-stylesheet
directives?)  
 
A link rel="stylesheet" seems to be the most efficient solution, however, a
fully qualified URI relation does the job too.   I would like to request a
stylesheet link relation be added to the IANA List of Relations and
supported in the validators.  Thoughts?  
 
Thanks,

James 




-- 
<M:D/>

M. David Peterson
http://www.xsltblog.com/  <http://www.xsltblog.com/> 




-- 
<M:D/>

M. David Peterson
http://www.xsltblog.com/ 




-- 
<M:D/>

M. David Peterson
http://www.xsltblog.com/ 

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.5296.0" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D132352117-27022006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>For anyone interested, I created a validated =
Atom feed that=20
(<A=20
href=3D"http://softwareme.com/ie7test.xml">http://softwareme.com/ie7test.=
xml</A>)=20
exhibits the problems with IE's refactor as RSS2.&nbsp; After hitting =
the IE7=20
Subscribe button, the feed is then converted to RSS2 (<A=20
href=3D"http://softwareme.com/ie7testsubscribed.xml">http://softwareme.co=
m/ie7testsubscribed.xml</A>),=20
which doesn't validate (<A=20
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fsoftwareme.=
com%2Fie7testsubscribed.xml">http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhtt=
p%3A%2F%2Fsoftwareme.com%2Fie7testsubscribed.xml</A>)&nbsp;although=20
still works in IE.&nbsp; </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D132352117-27022006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D132352117-27022006>I=20
would imagine this is important when you start using the MS API and =
figure out=20
things are wrong or missing, e.g. atom:published in rfc822 format,=20
etc.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D132352117-27022006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D132352117-27022006>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D132352117-27022006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>The other problem seems to be that IE7 doesn't =
allow or use=20
in the same way the xml-stylesheet directive - its stripped off.&nbsp; =
FF1.5 and=20
IE6 render using the supplied xml-stylesheet directive, as can be seen =
using <A=20
href=3D"http://www.atomenabled.org/atom.xml">http://www.atomenabled.org/a=
tom.xml</A></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><SPAN=20
class=3D132352117-27022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D132352117-27022006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Note: This test feed does not include the =
xsl/css solution=20
I'm using.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D132352117-27022006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></SPAN>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org =

[mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>M. David=20
Peterson<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 26, 2006 10:50 =
PM<BR><B>To:</B> James=20
Yenne<BR><B>Cc:</B> atom-syntax@imc.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Link rel=20
attribute "stylesheet"<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>If you quickly check the list archives you will notice that this =
very=20
conversation is taking place directly with members of the IE7/RSS =
team.&nbsp;=20
The short of it is that that MS is taking the RSS '2.0' format and =
extending it=20
in areas necessary to allow for what will eventually be a 1:1 mapping, =
without=20
data corruption or fidelity loss.&nbsp; I've written a follow-up piece =
to this=20
conversation directed towards the IE7/RSS folks, of which you can find =
here &gt;=20
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/archives/2006/02/this_is_a_call.html">htt=
p://www.xsltblog.com/archives/2006/02/this_is_a_call.html</A>&nbsp;&lt;&n=
bsp;=20
While the post I think brings out some important points, recent comments =
led to=20
what I believe is a bit more interesting in regards to the mindset of a =
lot of=20
folks in that they simply do not understand what the inherent issues =
with RSS '=20
2.0' are and how and why the Atom specification&nbsp; fixes these=20
problems.&nbsp; If there was ever a more crucial moment in time to bring =
these=20
points into an easily accessible and recognizable&nbsp;domainm which =
provided a=20
consolidated, well linked, and well documented summary of the available =
content,=20
now would be that time. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In fact, after recording with Kurt (Cagle) our next podcast =
tonight, I will=20
be finishing off a wiki in which anyone can then easily access and =
update as=20
they see fit, with this exact purpose in mind.&nbsp; Using a domain that =
I think=20
fits quite well into this general topic, it will be found at <A=20
href=3D"http://www.understandingatom.com/">http://www.understandingatom.c=
om/</A>&nbsp;when=20
complete.&nbsp; When all is said and done I then plan to create a blog =
post to=20
on my O'Reilly blog such that the process of evangelizing this can be =
made known=20
to the broad, XML.com/OReillynet audience.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I'll ping back this list when its ready.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>re: your XSLT PI problem with IE7.&nbsp; Is the code live somewhere =
that is=20
accessible such that I can take a look at it and help you debug the=20
problem?<BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 2/26/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>James=20
Yenne</B> &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:jamesy@softwareme.com">jamesy@softwareme.com</A>&gt; =
wrote:</SPAN>=20
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc =
1px solid">
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I'm=20
  "pre-caching" feeds as xml files and have not added this mime type to =
the=20
  server, so no, they're served as text/xml.&nbsp; IE7 appears to =
recognize them=20
  as feeds because you can see it does its re-factor of the Atom feed as =

  RSS2.&nbsp; Why does IE7 convert Atom feeds to RSS2 and use the Atom =
ns in the=20
  RSS2 feed?.&nbsp; I seem to have lost control of how my feed is =
rendered in=20
  IE7.&nbsp; I can render per my own XSL in IE6 and FF1.5.&nbsp; Are you =
saying=20
  that using application/atom+xml cause IE7 to keep the =
xsl?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2>The =
links in the=20
  generated RSS2 are broken: when I mouse over links, it doesn't include =

  anything after the domain&nbsp;<SPAN>(.com) </SPAN>in the=20
  url<SPAN>.&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN><SPAN>S</SPAN>o&nbsp;<SPAN>if an entry =
link href=20
  contains search parameters, it's chopped off<SPAN>.&nbsp; Inspecting =
the raw=20
  xml, however, the search parameters are still present, so IE seems to =
have a=20
  bug.</SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN><SPAN>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>The IE7=20
  conversion from Atom to RSS2 also doesn't pass the feed validators... =
here's=20
  an example validated Atom feed, and the IE7 RSS2 conversion creates a =
channel=20
  that does not validate: </FONT></SPAN></DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2>Dates&nbsp;<SPAN>are </SPAN>left in the atom ns<SPAN>, but=20
  </SPAN>are&nbsp;<SPAN>not </SPAN>rendered as rfc3339, but rather =
converted to=20
  rfc822<SPAN>;</SPAN> an email address is not included in the&nbsp;=20
  <SPAN>RSS2</SPAN> managing editor as required, =
but&nbsp;<SPAN>exists</SPAN> in=20
  the Atom feed author/email,&nbsp;<SPAN>and=20
  more</SPAN>.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT=20
  size=3D2><SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN>
  <LI>
  <P><A onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  =
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpublic.acti=
vera.com%2FIE8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l2"=20
  target=3D_blank>line 2</A>, column 252: <SPAN>managingEditor must =
include an=20
  email address</SPAN> [<A title=3D"more information about this error"=20
  onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/InvalidContact.html" =
target=3D_blank>=20
  help</A>]</P>
  <BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>... =
&nbsp;GMT&lt;/pubDate&gt;&lt;managingEditor&gt;Shop&lt;/managingEditor&gt=
;&lt;atom:author&gt;&lt;a =
...<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SPAN>^</SPAN><=
/PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <LI>
  <P><A onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  =
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpublic.acti=
vera.com%2FIE8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l2"=20
  target=3D_blank>line 2</A>, column 269: <SPAN>Undefined channel =
element:=20
  atom:author</SPAN> [<A title=3D"more information about this error"=20
  onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/UndefinedElement.html"=20
  target=3D_blank> help</A>]</P>
  <BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>... =
nagingEditor&gt;Shop&lt;/managingEditor&gt;&lt;atom:author&gt;&lt;atom:na=
me&gt;Sh =
...<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SPAN>^</SPAN><=
/PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <LI>
  <P><A onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  =
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpublic.acti=
vera.com%2FIE8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l2"=20
  target=3D_blank>line 2</A>, column 370: <SPAN>Undefined channel =
element:=20
  guid</SPAN> [<A title=3D"more information about this error"=20
  onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/UndefinedElement.html"=20
  target=3D_blank> help</A>]</P>
  <BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>... <A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href=3D"mailto:esy@gorge.net" =
target=3D_blank>esy@gorge.net</A>&lt;/atom:email&gt;&lt;/atom:author&gt;&=
lt;guid isPermaLink=3D"false"&gt;urn:gu ...
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SPAN>^</SPAN></PR=
E></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <LI>
  <P><A onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  =
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpublic.acti=
vera.com%2FIE8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l2"=20
  target=3D_blank>line 2</A>, column 643: <SPAN>Unexpected uri attribute =
on=20
  generator element</SPAN> [<A title=3D"more information about this =
error"=20
  onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/UnexpectedAttribute.html"=20
  target=3D_blank> help</A>]</P>
  <BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>... .css" rel=3D"stylesheet" =
type=3D"text/css"/&gt;&lt;generator uri=3D"urn:activera-com =
...<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SPAN>^</SPAN><=
/PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <LI>
  <P><A onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  =
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpublic.acti=
vera.com%2FIE8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l8"=20
  target=3D_blank>line 8</A>, column 181: <SPAN>atom:published must be =
an RFC-3339=20
  date-time</SPAN> (3 occurrences) [<A title=3D"more information about =
this error"=20
  onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/InvalidRFC3339Date.html"=20
  target=3D_blank> help</A>]</P>
  <BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>... 2005/Atom"&gt;Sun, 26 Feb 2006 14:35:04 =
GMT&lt;/atom:published&gt;&lt;author&gt;S =
...<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SPAN>^</SPAN><=
/PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <LI>
  <P><A onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  =
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpublic.acti=
vera.com%2FIE8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l8"=20
  target=3D_blank>line 8</A>, column 216: <SPAN>author must include an =
email=20
  address</SPAN> (3 occurrences) [<A title=3D"more information about =
this error"=20
  onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/InvalidContact.html" =
target=3D_blank>=20
  help</A>]</P>
  <BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>... 4 =
GMT&lt;/atom:published&gt;&lt;author&gt;Shop&lt;/author&gt;&lt;atom:autho=
r xmlns:atom =
...<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SPAN>^</SPAN><=
/PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <LI>
  <P><A onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  =
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpublic.acti=
vera.com%2FIE8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l8"=20
  target=3D_blank>line 8</A>, column 445: <SPAN>Undefined item element:=20
  atom:link</SPAN> (6 occurrences) [<A title=3D"more information about =
this error"=20
  onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/UndefinedElement.html"=20
  target=3D_blank> help</A>]</P>
  <BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>... =
904ca-3e80-4c74-8a62-926fa83405ac&lt;/guid&gt;&lt;atom:link =
xmlns:atom=3D"<A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href=3D"http://ww/" =
target=3D_blank>http://ww</A> =
...<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<SPAN>^</SPAN></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <LI>
  <P><A onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  =
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpublic.acti=
vera.com%2FIE8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l8"=20
  target=3D_blank>line 8</A>, column 854: <SPAN>Unexpected type =
attribute on=20
  description element</SPAN> (3 occurrences) [<A=20
  title=3D"more information about this error"=20
  onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/UnexpectedAttribute.html"=20
  target=3D_blank> help</A>]</P>
  <BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>... ype=3D"application/xml" =
title=3D"Location"/&gt;&lt;description type=3D"html"&gt;&amp;lt;div =
...<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SPAN>^</SPAN><=
/PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <LI>
  <P><A onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  =
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpublic.acti=
vera.com%2FIE8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l19"=20
  target=3D_blank>line 19</A>, column 74: <SPAN>Missing channel element: =

  description</SPAN> [<A title=3D"more information about this error"=20
  onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/MissingDescription.html"=20
  target=3D_blank> help</A>]</P>
  <BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>		=
&amp;lt;/div&amp;gt;&lt;/description&gt;&lt;cf:id&gt;2&lt;/cf:id&gt;&lt;c=
f:read&gt;true&lt;/cf:read&gt;&lt;/item&gt;&lt;/ =
...<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<SPAN>^</SPAN></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <LI>
  <P><A onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  =
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpublic.acti=
vera.com%2FIE8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l19"=20
  target=3D_blank>line 19</A>, column 74: <SPAN>Missing channel element: =

  link</SPAN> [<A title=3D"more information about this error"=20
  onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/MissingLink.html" =
target=3D_blank>help=20
  </A>]</P>
  <BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>		=
&amp;lt;/div&amp;gt;&lt;/description&gt;&lt;cf:id&gt;2&lt;/cf:id&gt;&lt;c=
f:read&gt;true&lt;/cf:read&gt;&lt;/item&gt;&lt;/ =
...</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN></FONT></LI></DIV><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> M. David Peterson [mailto:<A =

  onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"mailto:xmlhacker@gmail.com" =
target=3D_blank>xmlhacker@gmail.com</A>]=20
  <BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 26, 2006 8:53 PM <BR><B>To:</B> =
James=20
  Yenne<BR><B>Cc:</B> <A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"mailto:atom-syntax@imc.org" =
target=3D_blank>atom-syntax@imc.org</A><SPAN=20
  class=3Dq><BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Link rel attribute "stylesheet"=20
  <BR></SPAN></FONT><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3De id=3Dq_109aa31de8d99273_3>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>correction:</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
#ccc 1px solid">serving=20
    the .xml extension as with an application/xml extension</BLOCKQUOTE>
  <P>should read: serving the .xml extension as with an application/xml=20
  MIME-type (bunch of other spelling and grammar errors, but I would =
rather not=20
  waste everyones time showcasing something most already know... a first =
take at=20
  most anything I write tends to send the spell checking engine into =
fits of=20
  fury... so I save my CPU cycles for take two and beyond :) </P>
  <DIV><BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 2/26/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>M. David=20
  Peterson</B> &lt;<A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"mailto:xmlhacker@gmail.com" =
target=3D_blank>xmlhacker@gmail.com </A>&gt;=20
  wrote:</SPAN>=20
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
#ccc 1px solid">
    <DIV>Neat idea :)</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2>&gt; Why does IE7 rip out xml-stylesheet=20
    directives.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV>I can only assume your server is serving up the atom file =
(correctly)=20
    as application/atom+xml?&nbsp; If yes, application/atom+xml is =
transfered=20
    directly to the feed rendering mechanism, bypassing the xml parsing=20
    mechanism that would read the processing instruction for the =
transformation=20
    file, access this file, to then render accordingly.&nbsp; This is =
one of=20
    those situations I have&nbsp;had on my list&nbsp;to bring up to this =
group,=20
    and now that my time has freed up quite a bit from other projects, =
coupled=20
    with your post, now seems as good a time as any to start gaining =
some=20
    greater insite from the list members as to what the proper way to =
handle=20
    this situation is. </DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>I don't want to propogate this particular solution until I can =
say for=20
    sure that, in fact, it is the correct solution, but the simplest way =
I have=20
    found that seems to make the most sense is to create two atom feeds, =
one=20
    with an .xml extension, and one with an .atom extension, serving the =
.xml=20
    extension as with an application/xml extension, and the .atom as=20
    application/atom+xml. </DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>As a related side note: One of benefits I have discovered with =
IE7's=20
    general approach to data feeds comes within the context of=20
    autodiscovery.&nbsp; Here's what the link elements look like in the =
head of=20
    my personal blog: </DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&lt;link rel=3D"alternate" type=3D"application/atom+xml"=20
    title=3D"XSLT:Blog/Main/@dataFeed" href=3D"<A=20
    onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
    href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/feed.atom" target=3D_blank>=20
    http://www.xsltblog.com/feed.atom</A>" /&gt; <BR>&lt;link =
rel=3D"alternate"=20
    type=3D"application/xml" title=3D"XSLT:Blog/Main[@format =3D =
'Atom']/@dataFeed"=20
    href=3D"<A onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
    href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/atom.xml" target=3D_blank>=20
    http://www.xsltblog.com/atom.xml</A> " /&gt;<BR>&lt;link =
rel=3D"alternate"=20
    type=3D"application/rdf+xml" title=3D"XSLT:Blog/Main[@format =3D=20
    'RSS+RDF']/@dataFeed" href=3D"<A=20
    onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
    href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/index.rdf" target=3D_blank>=20
    http://www.xsltblog.com/index.rdf </A>" /&gt;<BR>&lt;link =
rel=3D"alternate"=20
    type=3D"application/xml" title=3D"XSLT:Blog/Main[@format =3D 'RSS =
2.0']/@dataFeed"=20
    href=3D"<A onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
    href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/index.xml" target=3D_blank>=20
    http://www.xsltblog.com/index.xml </A>" /&gt;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>If you visit <A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
    href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/" =
target=3D_blank>http://www.xsltblog.com</A> in=20
    IE7 you will notice that when you select the datafeed notification =
dropdown,=20
    it only shows the first entry above, titled " =
XSLT:Blog/Main/@dataFeed=20
    ".&nbsp; This&nbsp;happens for the same reason as above:&nbsp;=20
    application/atom+xml&nbsp;and application/rss+xml&nbsp;MIME-types =
invoked=20
    the feed rendering engine, and the same is true for autodiscovery =
links in=20
    the context of what IE7 will list as a data feed and what it will =
not.&nbsp;=20
    Of course, a simple way to ensure that folks using IE7 are only =
shown the=20
    data feed formats you would prefer for them to show is by setting =
the @type=20
    value of the non-prefered link elements to application/xml, which is =

    perfectly legal, and as such doesn't break anything else that might =
not use=20
    the same type restraints. </DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Of course, I'm not advocating this as something that should be=20
    implemented such that your visitors are forced into some sort of =
proprietary=20
    type thing...&nbsp; But give the fact that&nbsp;Atom is a =
specification=20
    backed by both IETF as well as the W3C, it seems to me that the only =
way to=20
    ensure that your site visitors will not have to make changes and =
updates to=20
    their data feed subscriptions is to focus on those that have gone =
through=20
    the full standardization process, and as such companys like MS can =
build=20
    solutions that they know are going to be compliant in 6 month, 6 =
years, and=20
    beyond.&nbsp; Thats both reassuring to them AND most importantly, =
your site=20
    visitors. <BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 2/26/06, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>James=20
    Yenne</B> &lt;<A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
    href=3D"mailto:jamesy@softwareme.com" =
target=3D_blank>jamesy@softwareme.com=20
    </A>&gt; wrote:</SPAN>=20
    <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
    style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
#ccc 1px solid">
      <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My feeds contain a generic=20
      xml-stylesheet, which formats the feed for display along with a=20
      feed-specific css.&nbsp; </FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Since=20
      xsl processors do not have a standard way to pass parameters to =
xsl=20
      stylesheets, I provide this feed-specific css to the xsl processor =
in the=20
      feed as a link with rel=3D"stylesheet".&nbsp; Generating xhtml =
with this=20
      xsl/css solution works for rendering both in IE6 and FF1.5.&nbsp; =
(Why=20
      does IE7 rip out xml-stylesheet directives?)&nbsp; =
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
      size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A&nbsp;link =
rel=3D"stylesheet" seems to=20
      be the most efficient solution, however, a fully qualified URI =
relation=20
      does the job too.&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT =
face=3DArial size=3D2>=20
      I would like to request a stylesheet link relation be added to the =
IANA=20
      List of Relations and supported in the validators.&nbsp; =
<SPAN><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2>Thoughts?&nbsp; =
</FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></SPAN></DIV><SPAN>
      <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>James=20
    </FONT></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR=20
    clear=3Dall><BR></SPAN></DIV><SPAN>-- <BR>&lt;M:D/&gt;<BR><BR>M. =
David=20
    Peterson<BR><A onclick=3D"return =
top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
    href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/" =
target=3D_blank>http://www.xsltblog.com/=20
    </A></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR clear=3Dall><BR>--=20
  <BR>&lt;M:D/&gt;<BR><BR>M. David Peterson<BR><A=20
  onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/" =
target=3D_blank>http://www.xsltblog.com/</A>=20
  </SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR clear=3Dall><BR>--=20
<BR>&lt;M:D/&gt;<BR><BR>M. David Peterson<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/">http://www.xsltblog.com/</A> =
</BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00EC_01C63B81.6DE63060--




From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Feb 27 13:06:39 2006
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From: Antone Roundy <antone@geckotribe.com>
Subject: Re: Link rel attribute "stylesheet"
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 10:48:32 -0700
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On Feb 27, 2006, at 8:29 AM, M. David Peterson wrote:
> When you say "what it was designed for" can you be specific as to  
> what that definition is?
Well, we failed to gain consensus on that.  Some of us wanted it to  
be used only for links intended to be traversed by the user (like the  
<a> element in HTML with an href attribute--the link is there so that  
the user can click it and get to the linked resource).  Others didn't  
want this limitation, but wanted the link to be resolvable (eg., no  
tag: URIs).  Others wanted to be able to stick any URI in it.  So  
there is no tightly defined "what it was designed for".

I'm just saying that if an extra attribute is required to  
disambiguate what's being pointed to in a case like the following  
(without requiring the link target to be loaded and inspected), then  
maybe you're trying to make this one element do too much:

<link rel="stylesheet" href="http://example.org/atom-2-rss-2.0.xsl" />
<link rel="stylesheet" href="http://example.org/atom-2-rss-1.0.xsl" />
<link rel="stylesheet" href="http://example.org/atom-2-fooml.xsl" />
etc.

If one were to encounter such a list of links at the top of an Atom  
document, which should one use?  Should one download all of them and  
then pick one?  Or are you going to add an attribute something like  
this:

<link rel="stylesheet" href="http://example.org/atom-2-rss-2.0.xsl"  
ext:targettype="application/xml+rss" />

> Sorry, new to the conversation, but I have particular interest in  
> this topic as it is my belief that the URI/IRI can be used to imply  
> a lot of information that is otherwise hidden from view, or uses  
> more complex mechanisms to achieve the same result.  If there is  
> real concern as to this approach, it would be great to gain a  
> greater understanding as what they are such that I can apply this  
> to the work I am doing in this area.
>
> For a particular example of what I mean, please see this post >  
> http://www.xsltblog.com/archives/2006/02/what_rest_gets_1.html <
Hmm.  If I'm reading that right, I wouldn't want to organize my  
websites that way.  And unless the specification for the "stylesheet"  
link relation were to mandate that URIs be constructed in a way  
enables readers to tell from the local path what type the stylesheet  
is going to transform the feed to, you wouldn't have any way to know  
whether you could apply such an interpretation in any given case.  I  
don't really see the benefit of putting the information into the URI  
versus creating an attribute whose sole purpose is to specify the  
type.  The number of bits it would save is trivial, and it would  
require the extra step of parsing the URI's local path to pull  
information out of it that could be taken more easily from a  
dedicated attribute.

Antone




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--_0e10641b-2f64-4ca1-ab37-a65d893a33b2_
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Thanks James. I've filed bugs in our bug tracking database for each of the =
issues that came up in the feed validator (except for flagging atom:* items=
, since these are a correct use of RSS 2.0 extension namespaces).

Sean

________________________________

From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org=
] On Behalf Of James Yenne
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 9:37 AM
To: 'M. David Peterson'
Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: IE7 Atom Handling (was RE: Link rel attribute "stylesheet")

For anyone interested, I created a validated Atom feed that (http://softwar=
eme.com/ie7test.xml) exhibits the problems with IE's refactor as RSS2.  Aft=
er hitting the IE7 Subscribe button, the feed is then converted to RSS2 (ht=
tp://softwareme.com/ie7testsubscribed.xml), which doesn't validate (http://=
feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fsoftwareme.com%2Fie7testsubs=
cribed.xml) although still works in IE.

I would imagine this is important when you start using the MS API and figur=
e out things are wrong or missing, e.g. atom:published in rfc822 format, et=
c.

The other problem seems to be that IE7 doesn't allow or use in the same way=
 the xml-stylesheet directive - its stripped off.  FF1.5 and IE6 render usi=
ng the supplied xml-stylesheet directive, as can be seen using http://www.a=
tomenabled.org/atom.xml

Note: This test feed does not include the xsl/css solution I'm using.

________________________________

From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org=
] On Behalf Of M. David Peterson
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 10:50 PM
To: James Yenne
Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: Link rel attribute "stylesheet"

If you quickly check the list archives you will notice that this very conve=
rsation is taking place directly with members of the IE7/RSS team.  The sho=
rt of it is that that MS is taking the RSS '2.0' format and extending it in=
 areas necessary to allow for what will eventually be a 1:1 mapping, withou=
t data corruption or fidelity loss.  I've written a follow-up piece to this=
 conversation directed towards the IE7/RSS folks, of which you can find her=
e > http://www.xsltblog.com/archives/2006/02/this_is_a_call.html <  While t=
he post I think brings out some important points, recent comments led to wh=
at I believe is a bit more interesting in regards to the mindset of a lot o=
f folks in that they simply do not understand what the inherent issues with=
 RSS ' 2.0' are and how and why the Atom specification  fixes these problem=
s.  If there was ever a more crucial moment in time to bring these points i=
nto an easily accessible and recognizable domainm which provided a consolid=
ated, well linked, and well documented summary of the available content, no=
w would be that time.

In fact, after recording with Kurt (Cagle) our next podcast tonight, I will=
 be finishing off a wiki in which anyone can then easily access and update =
as they see fit, with this exact purpose in mind.  Using a domain that I th=
ink fits quite well into this general topic, it will be found at http://www=
.understandingatom.com/ when complete.  When all is said and done I then pl=
an to create a blog post to on my O'Reilly blog such that the process of ev=
angelizing this can be made known to the broad, XML.com/OReillynet audience=
.

I'll ping back this list when its ready.

re: your XSLT PI problem with IE7.  Is the code live somewhere that is acce=
ssible such that I can take a look at it and help you debug the problem?


On 2/26/06, James Yenne <jamesy@softwareme.com> wrote:
I'm "pre-caching" feeds as xml files and have not added this mime type to t=
he server, so no, they're served as text/xml.  IE7 appears to recognize the=
m as feeds because you can see it does its re-factor of the Atom feed as RS=
S2.  Why does IE7 convert Atom feeds to RSS2 and use the Atom ns in the RSS=
2 feed?.  I seem to have lost control of how my feed is rendered in IE7.  I=
 can render per my own XSL in IE6 and FF1.5.  Are you saying that using app=
lication/atom+xml cause IE7 to keep the xsl?

The links in the generated RSS2 are broken: when I mouse over links, it doe=
sn't include anything after the domain (.com) in the url.   So if an entry =
link href contains search parameters, it's chopped off.  Inspecting the raw=
 xml, however, the search parameters are still present, so IE seems to have=
 a bug.

The IE7 conversion from Atom to RSS2 also doesn't pass the feed validators.=
.. here's an example validated Atom feed, and the IE7 RSS2 conversion creat=
es a channel that does not validate:
Dates are left in the atom ns, but are not rendered as rfc3339, but rather =
converted to rfc822; an email address is not included in the  RSS2 managing=
 editor as required, but exists in the Atom feed author/email, and more.



*  line 2, column 252: managingEditor must include an email address [ help]

...  GMT</pubDate><managingEditor>Shop</managingEditor><atom:author><a ...

                                             ^

*  line 2, column 269: Undefined channel element: atom:author [ help]

... nagingEditor>Shop</managingEditor><atom:author><atom:name>Sh ...

                                             ^

*  line 2, column 370: Undefined channel element: guid [ help]

... esy@gorge.net</atom:email></atom:author><guid isPermaLink=3D"false">urn=
:gu ...


                                             ^

*  line 2, column 643: Unexpected uri attribute on generator element [ help=
]

... .css" rel=3D"stylesheet" type=3D"text/css"/><generator uri=3D"urn:activ=
era-com ...

                                             ^

*  line 8, column 181: atom:published must be an RFC-3339 date-time (3 occu=
rrences) [ help]

... 2005/Atom">Sun, 26 Feb 2006 14:35:04 GMT</atom:published><author>S ...

                                             ^

*  line 8, column 216: author must include an email address (3 occurrences)=
 [ help]

... 4 GMT</atom:published><author>Shop</author><atom:author xmlns:atom ...

                                             ^

*  line 8, column 445: Undefined item element: atom:link (6 occurrences) [ =
help]

... 904ca-3e80-4c74-8a62-926fa83405ac</guid><atom:link xmlns:atom=3D"http:/=
/ww ...



^

*  line 8, column 854: Unexpected type attribute on description element (3 =
occurrences) [ help]

... ype=3D"application/xml" title=3D"Location"/><description type=3D"html">=
&lt;div ...

                                             ^

*  line 19, column 74: Missing channel element: description [ help]

    &lt;/div&gt;</description><cf:id>2</cf:id><cf:read>true</cf:read></item=
></ ...



^

*  line 19, column 74: Missing channel element: link [help ]

    &lt;/div&gt;</description><cf:id>2</cf:id><cf:read>true</cf:read></item=
></ ...


________________________________

From: M. David Peterson [mailto:xmlhacker@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 8:53 PM
To: James Yenne
Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: Link rel attribute "stylesheet"


correction:


serving the .xml extension as with an application/xml extension

should read: serving the .xml extension as with an application/xml MIME-typ=
e (bunch of other spelling and grammar errors, but I would rather not waste=
 everyones time showcasing something most already know... a first take at m=
ost anything I write tends to send the spell checking engine into fits of f=
ury... so I save my CPU cycles for take two and beyond :)



On 2/26/06, M. David Peterson <xmlhacker@gmail.com > wrote:
Neat idea :)

> Why does IE7 rip out xml-stylesheet directives.
I can only assume your server is serving up the atom file (correctly) as ap=
plication/atom+xml?  If yes, application/atom+xml is transfered directly to=
 the feed rendering mechanism, bypassing the xml parsing mechanism that wou=
ld read the processing instruction for the transformation file, access this=
 file, to then render accordingly.  This is one of those situations I have =
had on my list to bring up to this group, and now that my time has freed up=
 quite a bit from other projects, coupled with your post, now seems as good=
 a time as any to start gaining some greater insite from the list members a=
s to what the proper way to handle this situation is.

I don't want to propogate this particular solution until I can say for sure=
 that, in fact, it is the correct solution, but the simplest way I have fou=
nd that seems to make the most sense is to create two atom feeds, one with =
an .xml extension, and one with an .atom extension, serving the .xml extens=
ion as with an application/xml extension, and the .atom as application/atom=
+xml.

As a related side note: One of benefits I have discovered with IE7's genera=
l approach to data feeds comes within the context of autodiscovery.  Here's=
 what the link elements look like in the head of my personal blog:

<link rel=3D"alternate" type=3D"application/atom+xml" title=3D"XSLT:Blog/Ma=
in/@dataFeed" href=3D" http://www.xsltblog.com/feed.atom" />
<link rel=3D"alternate" type=3D"application/xml" title=3D"XSLT:Blog/Main[@f=
ormat =3D 'Atom']/@dataFeed" href=3D" http://www.xsltblog.com/atom.xml " />
<link rel=3D"alternate" type=3D"application/rdf+xml" title=3D"XSLT:Blog/Mai=
n[@format =3D 'RSS+RDF']/@dataFeed" href=3D" http://www.xsltblog.com/index.=
rdf " />
<link rel=3D"alternate" type=3D"application/xml" title=3D"XSLT:Blog/Main[@f=
ormat =3D 'RSS 2.0']/@dataFeed" href=3D" http://www.xsltblog.com/index.xml =
" />

If you visit http://www.xsltblog.com in IE7 you will notice that when you s=
elect the datafeed notification dropdown, it only shows the first entry abo=
ve, titled " XSLT:Blog/Main/@dataFeed ".  This happens for the same reason =
as above:  application/atom+xml and application/rss+xml MIME-types invoked =
the feed rendering engine, and the same is true for autodiscovery links in =
the context of what IE7 will list as a data feed and what it will not.  Of =
course, a simple way to ensure that folks using IE7 are only shown the data=
 feed formats you would prefer for them to show is by setting the @type val=
ue of the non-prefered link elements to application/xml, which is perfectly=
 legal, and as such doesn't break anything else that might not use the same=
 type restraints.

Of course, I'm not advocating this as something that should be implemented =
such that your visitors are forced into some sort of proprietary type thing=
...  But give the fact that Atom is a specification backed by both IETF as =
well as the W3C, it seems to me that the only way to ensure that your site =
visitors will not have to make changes and updates to their data feed subsc=
riptions is to focus on those that have gone through the full standardizati=
on process, and as such companys like MS can build solutions that they know=
 are going to be compliant in 6 month, 6 years, and beyond.  Thats both rea=
ssuring to them AND most importantly, your site visitors.

On 2/26/06, James Yenne <jamesy@softwareme.com > wrote:
My feeds contain a generic xml-stylesheet, which formats the feed for displ=
ay along with a feed-specific css.  Since xsl processors do not have a stan=
dard way to pass parameters to xsl stylesheets, I provide this feed-specifi=
c css to the xsl processor in the feed as a link with rel=3D"stylesheet".  =
Generating xhtml with this xsl/css solution works for rendering both in IE6=
 and FF1.5.  (Why does IE7 rip out xml-stylesheet directives?)

A link rel=3D"stylesheet" seems to be the most efficient solution, however,=
 a fully qualified URI relation does the job too.   I would like to request=
 a stylesheet link relation be added to the IANA List of Relations and supp=
orted in the validators.  Thoughts?

Thanks,
James



--
<M:D/>

M. David Peterson
http://www.xsltblog.com/



--
<M:D/>

M. David Peterson
http://www.xsltblog.com/



--
<M:D/>

M. David Peterson
http://www.xsltblog.com/

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<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:#1F497D'>Thanks James. I&#8217;ve filed bugs in our bug tracking data=
base
for each of the issues that came up in the feed validator (except for flagg=
ing <i>atom:*</i>
items, since these are a correct use of RSS 2.0 extension namespaces).<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:#1F497D'>Sean<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'=
>From:</span></b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.o=
rg
[mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>James Yenne<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 27, 2006 9:37 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'M. David Peterson'<br>
<b>Cc:</b> atom-syntax@imc.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> IE7 Atom Handling (was RE: Link rel attribute
&quot;stylesheet&quot;)</span><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;colo=
r:blue'>For
anyone interested, I created a validated Atom feed that (<a
href=3D"http://softwareme.com/ie7test.xml">http://softwareme.com/ie7test.xm=
l</a>)
exhibits the problems with IE's refactor as RSS2.&nbsp; After hitting the I=
E7
Subscribe button, the feed is then converted to RSS2 (<a
href=3D"http://softwareme.com/ie7testsubscribed.xml">http://softwareme.com/=
ie7testsubscribed.xml</a>),
which doesn't validate (<a
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fsoftwareme.co=
m%2Fie7testsubscribed.xml">http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A=
%2F%2Fsoftwareme.com%2Fie7testsubscribed.xml</a>)&nbsp;although
still works in IE.&nbsp; </span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;colo=
r:blue'>I
would imagine this is important when you start using the MS API and figure =
out
things are wrong or missing, e.g. atom:published in rfc822 format, etc.</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;colo=
r:blue'>The
other problem seems to be that IE7 doesn't allow or use in the same way the
xml-stylesheet directive - its stripped off.&nbsp; FF1.5 and IE6 render usi=
ng
the supplied xml-stylesheet directive, as can be seen using <a
href=3D"http://www.atomenabled.org/atom.xml">http://www.atomenabled.org/ato=
m.xml</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;colo=
r:blue'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;colo=
r:blue'>Note:
This test feed does not include the xsl/css solution I'm using.</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:
Tahoma'> owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.=
org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>M. David Peterson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 26, 2006 10:50 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> James Yenne<br>
<b>Cc:</b> atom-syntax@imc.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Link rel attribute &quot;stylesheet&quot;</span><o:p></=
o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>If you quickly check the list archives you will notice=
 that
this very conversation is taking place directly with members of the IE7/RSS
team.&nbsp; The short of it is that that MS is taking the RSS '2.0' format =
and extending
it in areas necessary to allow for what will eventually be a 1:1 mapping,
without data corruption or fidelity loss.&nbsp; I've written a follow-up pi=
ece
to this conversation directed towards the IE7/RSS folks, of which you can f=
ind
here &gt; <a href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/archives/2006/02/this_is_a_cal=
l.html">http://www.xsltblog.com/archives/2006/02/this_is_a_call.html</a>&nb=
sp;&lt;&nbsp;
While the post I think brings out some important points, recent comments le=
d to
what I believe is a bit more interesting in regards to the mindset of a lot=
 of
folks in that they simply do not understand what the inherent issues with R=
SS '
2.0' are and how and why the Atom specification&nbsp; fixes these
problems.&nbsp; If there was ever a more crucial moment in time to bring th=
ese
points into an easily accessible and recognizable&nbsp;domainm which provid=
ed a
consolidated, well linked, and well documented summary of the available
content, now would be that time. <o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>In fact, after recording with Kurt (Cagle) our next po=
dcast
tonight, I will be finishing off a wiki in which anyone can then easily acc=
ess
and update as they see fit, with this exact purpose in mind.&nbsp; Using a
domain that I think fits quite well into this general topic, it will be fou=
nd
at <a href=3D"http://www.understandingatom.com/">http://www.understandingat=
om.com/</a>&nbsp;when
complete.&nbsp; When all is said and done I then plan to create a blog post=
 to
on my O'Reilly blog such that the process of evangelizing this can be made
known to the broad, XML.com/OReillynet audience.<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>I'll ping back this list when its ready.<o:p></o:p></p=
>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>re: your XSLT PI problem with IE7.&nbsp; Is the code l=
ive
somewhere that is accessible such that I can take a look at it and help you
debug the problem?<br>
<br>
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Dgmailquote>On 2/26/06, <b>James Yenne</b=
> &lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:jamesy@softwareme.com">jamesy@softwareme.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
/span>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;colo=
r:blue'>I'm
&quot;pre-caching&quot; feeds as xml files and have not added this mime typ=
e to
the server, so no, they're served as text/xml.&nbsp; IE7 appears to recogni=
ze
them as feeds because you can see it does its re-factor of the Atom feed as=
 RSS2.&nbsp;
Why does IE7 convert Atom feeds to RSS2 and use the Atom ns in the RSS2
feed?.&nbsp; I seem to have lost control of how my feed is rendered in
IE7.&nbsp; I can render per my own XSL in IE6 and FF1.5.&nbsp; Are you sayi=
ng
that using application/atom+xml cause IE7 to keep the xsl?</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;colo=
r:blue'>The
links in the generated RSS2 are broken: when I mouse over links, it doesn't
include anything after the domain&nbsp;(.com) in the url.&nbsp;&nbsp;
So&nbsp;if an entry link href contains search parameters, it's chopped
off.&nbsp; Inspecting the raw xml, however, the search parameters are still
present, so IE seems to have a bug.</span><span style=3D'font-family:Arial;
color:blue'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;colo=
r:blue'>The
IE7 conversion from Atom to RSS2 also doesn't pass the feed validators...
here's an example validated Atom feed, and the IE7 RSS2 conversion creates =
a
channel that does not validate: </span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;colo=
r:blue'>Dates&nbsp;are
left in the atom ns, but are&nbsp;not rendered as rfc3339, but rather conve=
rted
to rfc822; an email address is not included in the&nbsp; RSS2 managing edit=
or
as required, but&nbsp;exists in the Atom feed author/email,&nbsp;and more.<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'>&middot;</span><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&nbsp; </span><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><a
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpublic.active=
ra.com%2FIE8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l2"
target=3D"_blank">line 2</a>, column 252: managingEditor must include an em=
ail
address [<a href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/InvalidContact.html=
"
target=3D"_blank" title=3D"more information about this error"> help</a>]<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>... &nbsp;G=
MT&lt;/pubDate&gt;&lt;managingEditor&gt;Shop&lt;/managingEditor&gt;&lt;atom=
:author&gt;&lt;a ...<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;^<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote=
>

<p><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'>&middot;</span><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&nbsp; </span><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><a
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpublic.active=
ra.com%2FIE8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l2"
target=3D"_blank">line 2</a>, column 269: Undefined channel element: atom:a=
uthor
[<a href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/UndefinedElement.html"
target=3D"_blank" title=3D"more information about this error"> help</a>]<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>... nagingE=
ditor&gt;Shop&lt;/managingEditor&gt;&lt;atom:author&gt;&lt;atom:name&gt;Sh =
...<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;^<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote=
>

<p><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'>&middot;</span><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&nbsp; </span><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><a
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpublic.active=
ra.com%2FIE8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l2"
target=3D"_blank">line 2</a>, column 370: Undefined channel element: guid [=
<a
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/UndefinedElement.html" target=
=3D"_blank"
title=3D"more information about this error"> help</a>]<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>... <a
href=3D"mailto:esy@gorge.net" target=3D"_blank">esy@gorge.net</a>&lt;/atom:=
email&gt;&lt;/atom:author&gt;&lt;guid isPermaLink=3D&quot;false&quot;&gt;ur=
n:gu ...<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;^<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote=
>

<p><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'>&middot;</span><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&nbsp; </span><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><a
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpublic.active=
ra.com%2FIE8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l2"
target=3D"_blank">line 2</a>, column 643: Unexpected uri attribute on gener=
ator
element [<a href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/UnexpectedAttribute=
.html"
target=3D"_blank" title=3D"more information about this error"> help</a>]<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>... .css&qu=
ot; rel=3D&quot;stylesheet&quot; type=3D&quot;text/css&quot;/&gt;&lt;genera=
tor uri=3D&quot;urn:activera-com ...<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;^<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote=
>

<p><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'>&middot;</span><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&nbsp; </span><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><a
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpublic.active=
ra.com%2FIE8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l8"
target=3D"_blank">line 8</a>, column 181: atom:published must be an RFC-333=
9
date-time (3 occurrences) [<a
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/InvalidRFC3339Date.html"
target=3D"_blank" title=3D"more information about this error"> help</a>]<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>... 2005/At=
om&quot;&gt;Sun, 26 Feb 2006 14:35:04 GMT&lt;/atom:published&gt;&lt;author&=
gt;S ...<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;^<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote=
>

<p><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'>&middot;</span><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&nbsp; </span><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><a
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpublic.active=
ra.com%2FIE8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l8"
target=3D"_blank">line 8</a>, column 216: author must include an email addr=
ess (3
occurrences) [<a href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/InvalidContact=
.html"
target=3D"_blank" title=3D"more information about this error"> help</a>]<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>... 4 GMT&l=
t;/atom:published&gt;&lt;author&gt;Shop&lt;/author&gt;&lt;atom:author xmlns=
:atom ...<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;^<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote=
>

<p><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'>&middot;</span><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&nbsp; </span><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><a
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpublic.active=
ra.com%2FIE8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l8"
target=3D"_blank">line 8</a>, column 445: Undefined item element: atom:link=
 (6
occurrences) [<a
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/UndefinedElement.html" target=
=3D"_blank"
title=3D"more information about this error"> help</a>]<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>... 904ca-3=
e80-4c74-8a62-926fa83405ac&lt;/guid&gt;&lt;atom:link xmlns:atom=3D&quot;<a
href=3D"http://ww/" target=3D"_blank">http://ww</a> ...<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>^<o:p></=
o:p></pre></blockquote>

<p><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'>&middot;</span><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&nbsp; </span><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><a
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpublic.active=
ra.com%2FIE8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l8"
target=3D"_blank">line 8</a>, column 854: Unexpected type attribute on
description element (3 occurrences) [<a
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/UnexpectedAttribute.html"
target=3D"_blank" title=3D"more information about this error"> help</a>]<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>... ype=3D&=
quot;application/xml&quot; title=3D&quot;Location&quot;/&gt;&lt;description=
 type=3D&quot;html&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;div ...<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;^<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote=
>

<p><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'>&middot;</span><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&nbsp; </span><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><a
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpublic.active=
ra.com%2FIE8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l19"
target=3D"_blank">line 19</a>, column 74: Missing channel element: descript=
ion [<a
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/MissingDescription.html"
target=3D"_blank" title=3D"more information about this error"> help</a>]<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>&nbsp; &nbs=
p; &amp;lt;/div&amp;gt;&lt;/description&gt;&lt;cf:id&gt;2&lt;/cf:id&gt;&lt;=
cf:read&gt;true&lt;/cf:read&gt;&lt;/item&gt;&lt;/ ...<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></pre><pre>^<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>

<p><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'>&middot;</span><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&nbsp; </span><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><a
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpublic.active=
ra.com%2FIE8071823f-4ea0-4f62-8ab3-4bbe9f93fb21.xml#l19"
target=3D"_blank">line 19</a>, column 74: Missing channel element: link [<a
href=3D"http://feedvalidator.org/docs/error/MissingLink.html" target=3D"_bl=
ank"
title=3D"more information about this error">help </a>]<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>&nbsp; &nbs=
p; &amp;lt;/div&amp;gt;&lt;/description&gt;&lt;cf:id&gt;2&lt;/cf:id&gt;&lt;=
cf:read&gt;true&lt;/cf:read&gt;&lt;/item&gt;&lt;/ ...<o:p></o:p></pre></blo=
ckquote>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><br>
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'=
>From:</span></b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> M. David Peterson [mailto:<a
href=3D"mailto:xmlhacker@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">xmlhacker@gmail.com</=
a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 26, 2006 8:53 PM <br>
<b>To:</b> James Yenne<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:atom-syntax@imc.org" target=3D"_blank">atom-sy=
ntax@imc.org</a><br>
<span class=3Dq><b>Subject:</b> Re: Link rel attribute &quot;stylesheet&quo=
t; </span><br>
</span><br>
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>correction:<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>serving the .xml extension as with an application/xml
extension<o:p></o:p></p>

</blockquote>

<p>should read: serving the .xml extension as with an application/xml MIME-=
type
(bunch of other spelling and grammar errors, but I would rather not waste
everyones time showcasing something most already know... a first take at mo=
st
anything I write tends to send the spell checking engine into fits of fury.=
.. so
I save my CPU cycles for take two and beyond :) <o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><br>
<br>
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Dgmailquote>On 2/26/06, <b>M. David Peter=
son</b>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xmlhacker@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">xmlhacker@gmai=
l.com </a>&gt;
wrote:</span> <o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Neat idea :)<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Why does IE7 rip=
 out
xml-stylesheet directives.</span><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>I can only assume your server is serving up the atom f=
ile
(correctly) as application/atom+xml?&nbsp; If yes, application/atom+xml is
transfered directly to the feed rendering mechanism, bypassing the xml pars=
ing
mechanism that would read the processing instruction for the transformation
file, access this file, to then render accordingly.&nbsp; This is one of th=
ose
situations I have&nbsp;had on my list&nbsp;to bring up to this group, and n=
ow
that my time has freed up quite a bit from other projects, coupled with you=
r
post, now seems as good a time as any to start gaining some greater insite =
from
the list members as to what the proper way to handle this situation is. <o:=
p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>I don't want to propogate this particular solution unt=
il I
can say for sure that, in fact, it is the correct solution, but the simples=
t
way I have found that seems to make the most sense is to create two atom fe=
eds,
one with an .xml extension, and one with an .atom extension, serving the .x=
ml
extension as with an application/xml extension, and the .atom as
application/atom+xml. <o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>As a related side note: One of benefits I have discove=
red
with IE7's general approach to data feeds comes within the context of
autodiscovery.&nbsp; Here's what the link elements look like in the head of=
 my
personal blog: <o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&lt;link rel=3D&quot;alternate&quot; type=3D&quot;appl=
ication/atom+xml&quot;
title=3D&quot;XSLT:Blog/Main/@dataFeed&quot; href=3D&quot;<a
href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/feed.atom" target=3D"_blank">
http://www.xsltblog.com/feed.atom</a>&quot; /&gt; <br>
&lt;link rel=3D&quot;alternate&quot; type=3D&quot;application/xml&quot;
title=3D&quot;XSLT:Blog/Main[@format =3D 'Atom']/@dataFeed&quot; href=3D&qu=
ot;<a
href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/atom.xml" target=3D"_blank">
http://www.xsltblog.com/atom.xml</a> &quot; /&gt;<br>
&lt;link rel=3D&quot;alternate&quot; type=3D&quot;application/rdf+xml&quot;
title=3D&quot;XSLT:Blog/Main[@format =3D 'RSS+RDF']/@dataFeed&quot; href=3D=
&quot;<a
href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/index.rdf" target=3D"_blank">
http://www.xsltblog.com/index.rdf </a>&quot; /&gt;<br>
&lt;link rel=3D&quot;alternate&quot; type=3D&quot;application/xml&quot;
title=3D&quot;XSLT:Blog/Main[@format =3D 'RSS 2.0']/@dataFeed&quot; href=3D=
&quot;<a
href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/index.xml" target=3D"_blank">
http://www.xsltblog.com/index.xml </a>&quot; /&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>If you visit <a href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/"
target=3D"_blank">http://www.xsltblog.com</a> in IE7 you will notice that w=
hen
you select the datafeed notification dropdown, it only shows the first entr=
y
above, titled &quot; XSLT:Blog/Main/@dataFeed &quot;.&nbsp; This&nbsp;happe=
ns
for the same reason as above:&nbsp; application/atom+xml&nbsp;and
application/rss+xml&nbsp;MIME-types invoked the feed rendering engine, and =
the
same is true for autodiscovery links in the context of what IE7 will list a=
s a
data feed and what it will not.&nbsp; Of course, a simple way to ensure tha=
t
folks using IE7 are only shown the data feed formats you would prefer for t=
hem
to show is by setting the @type value of the non-prefered link elements to
application/xml, which is perfectly legal, and as such doesn't break anythi=
ng
else that might not use the same type restraints. <o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Of course, I'm not advocating this as something that s=
hould
be implemented such that your visitors are forced into some sort of proprie=
tary
type thing...&nbsp; But give the fact that&nbsp;Atom is a specification bac=
ked
by both IETF as well as the W3C, it seems to me that the only way to ensure
that your site visitors will not have to make changes and updates to their =
data
feed subscriptions is to focus on those that have gone through the full
standardization process, and as such companys like MS can build solutions t=
hat
they know are going to be compliant in 6 month, 6 years, and beyond.&nbsp;
Thats both reassuring to them AND most importantly, your site visitors. <br=
>
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Dgmailquote>On 2/26/06, <b>James Yenne</b=
> &lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:jamesy@softwareme.com" target=3D"_blank">jamesy@softwareme.c=
om </a>&gt;
wrote:</span> <o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>My =
feeds
contain a generic xml-stylesheet, which formats the feed for display along =
with
a feed-specific css.&nbsp; Since xsl processors do not have a standard way =
to
pass parameters to xsl stylesheets, I provide this feed-specific css to the=
 xsl
processor in the feed as a link with rel=3D&quot;stylesheet&quot;.&nbsp;
Generating xhtml with this xsl/css solution works for rendering both in IE6=
 and
FF1.5.&nbsp; (Why does IE7 rip out xml-stylesheet directives?)&nbsp; </span=
><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>A&n=
bsp;link
rel=3D&quot;stylesheet&quot; seems to be the most efficient solution, howev=
er, a
fully qualified URI relation does the job too.&nbsp;&nbsp; I would like to
request a stylesheet link relation be added to the IANA List of Relations a=
nd
supported in the validators.&nbsp; Thoughts?&nbsp; </span><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Tha=
nks,</span><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Jam=
es </span><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><br>
<br clear=3Dall>
<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>-- <br>
&lt;M:D/&gt;<br>
<br>
M. David Peterson<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.xsltblog.=
com/ </a><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><br>
<br clear=3Dall>
<br>
<span class=3De>-- </span><br>
<span class=3De>&lt;M:D/&gt;</span><br>
<br>
<span class=3De>M. David Peterson</span><br>
<span class=3De><a href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/" target=3D"_blank">http=
://www.xsltblog.com/</a>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><br>
<br clear=3Dall>
<br>
-- <br>
&lt;M:D/&gt;<br>
<br>
M. David Peterson<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.xsltblog.com/">http://www.xsltblog.com/</a> <o:p></o:=
p></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

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Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 15:14:09 -0700
From: "M. David Peterson" <xmlhacker@gmail.com>
To: "Sean Lyndersay" <seanlynd@exchange.microsoft.com>
Subject: Re: IE7 Atom Handling (was RE: Link rel attribute "stylesheet")
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------=_Part_6280_18299522.1141078449705--




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Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 17:29:19 -0500
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Sean Lyndersay wrote:
> Thanks James. I=92ve filed bugs in our bug tracking database for each o=
f
> the issues that came up in the feed validator (except for flagging
> /atom:*/ items, since these are a correct use of RSS 2.0 extension
> namespaces).

Re the flagging of atom: elements: this was indeed a bug in the Feed
Validator.

The Feed Validator was incorrectly flagging the use of atom:author
elements at the channel level and atom:link elements at the item level.
 A test case has been expanded to include these elements, and these
problems have been corrected.

The fix should be deployed online in a matter of hours.

- Sam Ruby