From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 01 07:11:09 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FEQAf-0002Px-OB for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Mar 2006 07:11:09 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FEQAe-0002s4-Bu for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Mar 2006 07:11:09 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k21Bs6aW033125; Wed, 1 Mar 2006 04:54:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k21Bs6vG033124; Wed, 1 Mar 2006 04:54:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pproxy.gmail.com (pproxy.gmail.com [64.233.166.181]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k21Bs41Q033094 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2006 04:54:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from xmlhacker@gmail.com) Received: by pproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id z59so51916pyg for ; Wed, 01 Mar 2006 03:54:04 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=UebbmlHQqTwfDgN+No/Asgi+9wXWkTnefcTN/9h33tYP8Wg4uFxzaURpGab6EzuMdABfHlDrp4DMi2OAOeh7HgjNoVTGKPrbaHxnSJKcM2/mzlXa+x0ELneG33hW2kJxZyv6BYqslAYWMYRp2kOx7Zx7bryvD/hGKPLpZ+a1iYM= Received: by 10.64.149.13 with SMTP id w13mr56252qbd; Wed, 01 Mar 2006 03:54:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.183.15 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Mar 2006 03:54:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 04:54:02 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "atom-syntax@imc.org" Subject: http://trac.understandingatom.com/ now live MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5215_31786401.1141214042221" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb ------=_Part_5215_31786401.1141214042221 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline U3RpbGwgcXVpdGUgYSBiaXQgb2YgZ2VuZXJhbCBzaXRlIGlucmFzdHJ1Y3R1cmUgdG8gZmluaXNo IG9mZiwgYnV0IHRoZSB0cmFjCmluc3RhbmNlIGlzIG5vdyBsaXZlIGFuZCByZWFkeSBmb3IgY29u dHJpYnV0aW9ucyBhcyBhbnlvbmUgbWlnaHQgc2VlIGZpdC4KCldoZW4gc2lnbmlmaWNhbnQgdXBk YXRlcywgaW5jbHVkaW5nIHRoZSBjb21wbGV0aW9uIG9mIHRoZQpodHRwOi8vdW5kZXJzdGFuZGlu Z2F0b20uY29tLyBiYXNlIGZvciB0aGlzIHByb2plY3QsIGhhdmUgYmVlbiBtYWRlIEkgd2lsbApw aW5nIGJhY2sgdGhpcyB0aHJlYWQuICBPdGhlcndpc2UgSSB3aWxsIHJlbHkgb24gdGhlIGRhdGEg ZmVlZHMgbWFkZQphdmFpbGFibGUgdmlhIHRoZSBUcmFjIHN5c3RlbSBhcyB0aGUgcHJpbWFyeSBu b3RpZmljYXRpb24gc3lzdGVtLgoKSWYgdGhlcmUgYXJlIGFueSBzcGVjaWZpYyBUcmFjIGFkZC1v bnMgdGhhdCBhbnkgb2YgeW91IHdvdWxkIGxpa2UgdG8gaGF2ZQppbnN0YWxsZWQsIHBsZWFzZSBs ZXQgbWUga25vdyBhbmQgSSB3aWxsIGdldCBpdCB0YWtlbiBjYXJlIG9mLgoKT3RoZXJ3aXNlLCBl bmpveSA6KQoKaHR0cDovL3RyYWMudW5kZXJzdGFuZGluZ2F0b20uY29tLwoKLS0KPE06RC8+CgpN LiBEYXZpZCBQZXRlcnNvbgpodHRwOi8vd3d3LnhzbHRibG9nLmNvbS8K ------=_Part_5215_31786401.1141214042221 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline U3RpbGwgcXVpdGUgYSBiaXQgb2YgZ2VuZXJhbCBzaXRlIGlucmFzdHJ1Y3R1cmUgdG8gZmluaXNo IG9mZiwgYnV0IHRoZSB0cmFjIGluc3RhbmNlIGlzIG5vdyBsaXZlIGFuZCByZWFkeSBmb3IgY29u dHJpYnV0aW9ucyBhcyBhbnlvbmUgbWlnaHQgc2VlIGZpdC48YnI+PGJyPldoZW4gc2lnbmlmaWNh bnQgdXBkYXRlcywgaW5jbHVkaW5nIHRoZSBjb21wbGV0aW9uIG9mIHRoZSA8YSBocmVmPSJodHRw Oi8vdW5kZXJzdGFuZGluZ2F0b20uY29tLyI+Cmh0dHA6Ly91bmRlcnN0YW5kaW5nYXRvbS5jb20v PC9hPiBiYXNlIGZvciB0aGlzIHByb2plY3QsIGhhdmUgYmVlbiBtYWRlIEkgd2lsbCBwaW5nIGJh Y2sgdGhpcyB0aHJlYWQuJm5ic3A7IE90aGVyd2lzZSBJIHdpbGwgcmVseSBvbiB0aGUgZGF0YSBm ZWVkcyBtYWRlIGF2YWlsYWJsZSB2aWEgdGhlIFRyYWMgc3lzdGVtIGFzIHRoZSBwcmltYXJ5IG5v dGlmaWNhdGlvbiBzeXN0ZW0uPGJyPjxicj4KSWYgdGhlcmUgYXJlIGFueSBzcGVjaWZpYyBUcmFj IGFkZC1vbnMgdGhhdCBhbnkgb2YgeW91IHdvdWxkIGxpa2UgdG8gaGF2ZSBpbnN0YWxsZWQsIHBs ZWFzZSBsZXQgbWUga25vdyBhbmQgSSB3aWxsIGdldCBpdCB0YWtlbiBjYXJlIG9mLjxicj48YnI+ T3RoZXJ3aXNlLCBlbmpveSA6KTxicj48YnI+PGEgaHJlZj0iaHR0cDovL3RyYWMudW5kZXJzdGFu ZGluZ2F0b20uY29tLyI+aHR0cDovL3RyYWMudW5kZXJzdGFuZGluZ2F0b20uY29tLwo8L2E+IDxi ciBjbGVhcj0iYWxsIj48YnI+LS0gPGJyPiZsdDtNOkQvJmd0Ozxicj48YnI+TS4gRGF2aWQgUGV0 ZXJzb248YnI+PGEgaHJlZj0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy54c2x0YmxvZy5jb20vIj5odHRwOi8vd3d3Lnhz bHRibG9nLmNvbS88L2E+Cg== ------=_Part_5215_31786401.1141214042221-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 01 14:48:04 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FEXIq-000673-9j for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Mar 2006 14:48:04 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FEXIn-0005EG-87 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Mar 2006 14:48:04 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k21JXWTL010464; Wed, 1 Mar 2006 12:33:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k21JXWPM010463; Wed, 1 Mar 2006 12:33:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.48]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k21JXUq1010417 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2006 12:33:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20060301193324.FUOD29066.mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com>; Wed, 1 Mar 2006 19:33:24 +0000 Received: from cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust17.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([81.111.201.17]) by aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20060301193324.MGSB1217.aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust17.bagu.cable.ntl.com>; Wed, 1 Mar 2006 19:33:24 +0000 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 19:33:21 +0000 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.71.01) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1661449469.20060301193321@djpowell.net> To: Sean Lyndersay CC: "atom-syntax@imc.org" Subject: Re: IE7 Atom Handling (was RE: Link rel attribute "stylesheet") In-Reply-To: <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA82C8CA1@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> References: <200602271737.k1RHbZnK059871@balder-227.proper.com> <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA82C8CA1@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2bf730a014b318fd3efd65b39b48818c Hi Sean, I've been testing IE7 beta 2's support for Atom, with the following test feed: Also here for easier viewing in IE7 Here are the problems that I have found: 01. Person Extensions In Atom, extension elements can appear in feeds, entries, and person constructs. So atom:author and atom:contributor should preserve any extension elements. Currently, the transform only preserves atom:uri, atom:name, and atom:email. It should preserve all extensions too. 02. Timezones atom:updated is converted to RSS's RFC822 pubDate element, but the timezone information is lost. Eg: a date such as "2006-01-01T05:00:00+02:00" is converted to "Sun, 01 Jan 2006 05:00:00 GMT", which is incorrect. 03. atom:published While atom:updated is converted to pubDate, atom:published is kept as atom:published; except, the date format is converted to RFC822 format. I think that the date format should be kept as-is in ISO8601-style format. 04. Alternate links for non-HTML types The entry called "Binary Entry" contains a link of the form: This link isn't treated as the link for the entry, presumably because it has a type other than HTML. If no HTML link can be found for the alternate link, perhaps it would be worth just choosing any other alternate link instead. 05. HTML titles HTML in feed and entry titles is interpreted properly, but flattened to text. This is presumably deliberate but it does mean that there is some data loss. Perhaps the original atom namespaced element should be preserved as well in these cases? 06. atom:generator atom:generator is converted to RSS's generator. The uri attribute is included as an unnamespaced uri, but the version attribute is dropped. Perhaps both should be preserved, and it might be better to put the attributes into a namespace? 07. XHTML namespace prefix More of a rendering problem, but I've included it here because it is significant: xhtml content currently only works if the xhtml is in the default namespace. If a namespace prefix is used, it fails to be interpretted correctly. See the entry entitled: "Entry with full iana link@rel values"; the link should appear as an HTML link, but doesn't. 08. IANA URIs for link relations A bit of a quirky one, but in Atom the rel values are actually URIs relative to , so rel="alternate" and rel="http://www.iana.org/assignments/relation/alternate" should be treated the same. The same goes for enclosures. See the entry: "Entry with full iana link@rel values", which should show an enclosure and a valid entry link. 09. Category label atom:category is converted to RSS's category element. This causes the "label" attribute to be lost. It perhaps should be preserved as a namespaced attribute. Also, if it is available it might be better to use the "label" rather than the "term" as the RSS2 category name, because "term" might not be very human readable, that is the purpose of "label". See "Content Source Entry", which causes the WordNet URI to be displayed in the category filter box. 10. xml:base everywhere Some handling of xml:base is done if it appears on atom:feed or atom:entry, but it can appear anywhere. Eg, xml:base on the atom:link element should affect that link. There are a number of examples of xml:base being handled wrongly in the example, eg the broken feed logo. 11. xml:base / xml:lang namespace I notice that lang and base attributes appear on the transformed feed, but don't have the "xml:" namespace prefix? Is this a bug caused by the weirdness of the implicit "xml:" namespace? 12. Subscription name An IE7 bug, but I'll mention it here: If the feed title contains a line-break, the "Subscribe to feed"-dialog doesn't work because the line-break get's embedded as a hollow-square in the text box and causes an error. Try subscribing to the test feed, it works if you remove the hollow-box from the subscription name. 13. xml:base and xml:lang inheritance from atom:feed to entries xml:base and xml:lang at feed level should apply to all elements nested within the feed document. However the atom:feed element and its metadata can obviously change over time. This creates a problem: What if the atom:feed element contains an xml:base element, and it changes. The feed document as polled can be assumed to be consistent, but it would be wrong to retroactively apply this new base to old entries. In order to avoid these problems each entry needs to store the xml:lang and xml:base context at the time it was last seen in the document. I think that if a document has xml:lang set on atom:feed, then this attribute should be written to all item elements, unless it is overridden on that atom:entry element. Same for xml:base, except you might need to resolve the entry base against the feed base. Actually if you support feeds redirecting at the HTTP level, then you probably ought to always write the xml:base (and ensure that the feed URI is taken into account when generating it), else relative images and links will break after the redirection. Rewriting known elements such as atom:link to use absolute URLs based on the xml:base context is not an acceptable solution because you don't know which extension elements might contain URIs. 14. Inheritance of atom:author and atom:rights atom:author and atom:rights should be taken from the entry if available; else from ./atom:source/atom:author and ./atom:source/atom:rights; else from /atom:feed/atom:author and /atom:feed/atom:rights. Currently this inheritance doesn't happen, so unless you put atom:author on every entry, it doesn't get recognised. I suppose you ought to write these feed level elements to the item in all cases else when they change at feed level they will erroneously get retrospectively inherited to entry level. [Personally, I think feed/entry inheritance is a PITA, but that is how it works. Interference would be a better word for it. ] 15. Effect of xml:base on content xml:base affects links, but doesn't seem to affect links and images in HTML content. Kind of tricky to fix, perhaps you could run some javascript over the content to fix-up all of the src's and href's. Apart from those problems it looks pretty good. -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 01 18:33:49 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FEapJ-00018l-Uz for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Mar 2006 18:33:49 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FEapG-00049D-JW for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Mar 2006 18:33:49 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k21NM18s098233; Wed, 1 Mar 2006 16:22:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k21NM182098232; Wed, 1 Mar 2006 16:22:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vanadium.sabren.com (vanadium.sabren.com [67.19.173.84]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k21NM0gm098207 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2006 16:22:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.1.133] (cpe-066-057-027-065.nc.res.rr.com [66.57.27.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by vanadium.sabren.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k21NLvdS012682; Wed, 1 Mar 2006 18:21:57 -0500 Message-ID: <44062C94.5080500@intertwingly.net> Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 18:21:56 -0500 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Powell CC: Sean Lyndersay , "atom-syntax@imc.org" Subject: Re: IE7 Atom Handling (was RE: Link rel attribute "stylesheet") References: <200602271737.k1RHbZnK059871@balder-227.proper.com> <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA82C8CA1@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> <1661449469.20060301193321@djpowell.net> In-Reply-To: <1661449469.20060301193321@djpowell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 David Powell wrote: > 03. atom:published > > While atom:updated is converted to pubDate, atom:published is kept as > atom:published; except, the date format is converted to RFC822 format. > I think that the date format should be kept as-is in ISO8601-style > format. Why is atom:updated converted to pubDate? If any atom date is converted to pubDate, why isn't it atom:published? - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 01 18:50:00 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FEb4y-0003Lq-Uc for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Mar 2006 18:50:00 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FEb4x-0004vb-IP for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Mar 2006 18:50:00 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k21NXwSe002866; Wed, 1 Mar 2006 16:33:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k21NXwBY002865; Wed, 1 Mar 2006 16:33:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [205.237.194.34]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k21NXvKH002833 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2006 16:33:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [81.254.238.232] (unknown [81.254.238.232]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B061E3CA44 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2006 18:33:55 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Feed History -05 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 00:33:59 +0100 To: atom-syntax Syntax X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 I've submitted Feed History -05, hopefully either the last or very near to. http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nottingham-atompub-feed- history-05.txt Changes: * Moved fh:prev and fh:subscription to the "previous" and "current" Atom link relations, respectively. * More carefully specified the feed state reconstruction process; please review. * Moved fh:incremental boolean to fh:complete empty element (has incremental=false semantics). Please review and give feedback ASAP; I think this has incorporated all feedback and stated plans to date. Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 01 19:23:45 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FEbbd-0002vx-VG for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Mar 2006 19:23:45 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FEbbc-0008DM-I6 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Mar 2006 19:23:45 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k220Dvmo018284; Wed, 1 Mar 2006 17:13:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k220Dvu2018283; Wed, 1 Mar 2006 17:13:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.201]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k220DtBO018247 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2006 17:13:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 71so277618wri for ; Wed, 01 Mar 2006 16:13:55 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=nGpyLGS9dIksXahOkmXwpXS9exl86XnfbVyFVFA26+RcQ4P8QvdNygYuAwTwu+3cmptyYB+bKZhBlUWroS5ci0u90rR4CNwrXfeLuiJrsuFr1o7AwxJh1AZop2fhhtt4zXNu/K+pX1tQOThHpDG3sZdOrZOCxGfU5mHBfblkJG8= Received: by 10.54.82.17 with SMTP id f17mr395226wrb; Wed, 01 Mar 2006 16:13:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.101? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 39sm1564614wrl.2006.03.01.16.13.50; Wed, 01 Mar 2006 16:13:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <440638B8.1090909@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 16:13:44 -0800 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax Subject: Atom revision tracking extension Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Generally experimental at this point. This has been submitted as an I-D but won't go up until after the current publishing freeze is lifted. Until then, you can find the draft here: http://www.snellspace.com/public/draft-snell-atompub-revision-00.txt As always, comments are welcome and desired. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 02 15:25:32 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FEuMe-0007Va-LZ for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Mar 2006 15:25:32 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FEuMc-00066G-WB for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Mar 2006 15:25:32 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k22K6M5h008428; Thu, 2 Mar 2006 13:06:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k22K6LXC008427; Thu, 2 Mar 2006 13:06:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail4.exchange.microsoft.com (mail4.exchange.microsoft.com [131.107.1.99]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k22K6KNX008417 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2006 13:06:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from seanlynd@exchange.microsoft.com) Received: from df-hub-01.exchange.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.69.171]) by mail4.exchange.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 2 Mar 2006 12:06:16 -0800 Received: from df-bhd-02.exchange.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.71.211]) by df-hub-01.exchange.corp.microsoft.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 2 Mar 2006 12:06:15 -0800 From: Sean Lyndersay To: David Powell CC: "atom-syntax@imc.org" Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 12:04:20 -0800 Subject: RE: IE7 Atom Handling (was RE: Link rel attribute "stylesheet") Thread-Topic: IE7 Atom Handling (was RE: Link rel attribute "stylesheet") Thread-Index: AcY9ZwSBBEZ/FPPfRySVjVeUhwjGjAAzWmjg Message-ID: <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA82C9165@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> References: <200602271737.k1RHbZnK059871@balder-227.proper.com> <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA82C8CA1@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> <1661449469.20060301193321@djpowell.net> In-Reply-To: <1661449469.20060301193321@djpowell.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-microsoft-aal: 22 x-microsoft-cal: 11 x-microsoft-multilevel-authmechanism: SecureMapiSubmit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RulesExecuted: True X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Mar 2006 20:06:15.0029 (UTC) FILETIME=[C2934250:01C63E34] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id k22K6LNX008421 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ec7c6dab5a62df223002ae71b5179d41 This is fantastic, David. Many thanks. We're going over your feed in detail and I'll respond with bug information as soon as possible. Thanks, Sean -----Original Message----- From: David Powell [mailto:djpowell@djpowell.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 11:33 AM To: Sean Lyndersay Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: IE7 Atom Handling (was RE: Link rel attribute "stylesheet") Hi Sean, I've been testing IE7 beta 2's support for Atom, with the following test feed: Also here for easier viewing in IE7 Here are the problems that I have found: 01. Person Extensions In Atom, extension elements can appear in feeds, entries, and person constructs. So atom:author and atom:contributor should preserve any extension elements. Currently, the transform only preserves atom:uri, atom:name, and atom:email. It should preserve all extensions too. 02. Timezones atom:updated is converted to RSS's RFC822 pubDate element, but the timezone information is lost. Eg: a date such as "2006-01-01T05:00:00+02:00" is converted to "Sun, 01 Jan 2006 05:00:00 GMT", which is incorrect. 03. atom:published While atom:updated is converted to pubDate, atom:published is kept as atom:published; except, the date format is converted to RFC822 format. I think that the date format should be kept as-is in ISO8601-style format. 04. Alternate links for non-HTML types The entry called "Binary Entry" contains a link of the form: This link isn't treated as the link for the entry, presumably because it has a type other than HTML. If no HTML link can be found for the alternate link, perhaps it would be worth just choosing any other alternate link instead. 05. HTML titles HTML in feed and entry titles is interpreted properly, but flattened to text. This is presumably deliberate but it does mean that there is some data loss. Perhaps the original atom namespaced element should be preserved as well in these cases? 06. atom:generator atom:generator is converted to RSS's generator. The uri attribute is included as an unnamespaced uri, but the version attribute is dropped. Perhaps both should be preserved, and it might be better to put the attributes into a namespace? 07. XHTML namespace prefix More of a rendering problem, but I've included it here because it is significant: xhtml content currently only works if the xhtml is in the default namespace. If a namespace prefix is used, it fails to be interpretted correctly. See the entry entitled: "Entry with full iana link@rel values"; the link should appear as an HTML link, but doesn't. 08. IANA URIs for link relations A bit of a quirky one, but in Atom the rel values are actually URIs relative to , so rel="alternate" and rel="http://www.iana.org/assignments/relation/alternate" should be treated the same. The same goes for enclosures. See the entry: "Entry with full iana link@rel values", which should show an enclosure and a valid entry link. 09. Category label atom:category is converted to RSS's category element. This causes the "label" attribute to be lost. It perhaps should be preserved as a namespaced attribute. Also, if it is available it might be better to use the "label" rather than the "term" as the RSS2 category name, because "term" might not be very human readable, that is the purpose of "label". See "Content Source Entry", which causes the WordNet URI to be displayed in the category filter box. 10. xml:base everywhere Some handling of xml:base is done if it appears on atom:feed or atom:entry, but it can appear anywhere. Eg, xml:base on the atom:link element should affect that link. There are a number of examples of xml:base being handled wrongly in the example, eg the broken feed logo. 11. xml:base / xml:lang namespace I notice that lang and base attributes appear on the transformed feed, but don't have the "xml:" namespace prefix? Is this a bug caused by the weirdness of the implicit "xml:" namespace? 12. Subscription name An IE7 bug, but I'll mention it here: If the feed title contains a line-break, the "Subscribe to feed"-dialog doesn't work because the line-break get's embedded as a hollow-square in the text box and causes an error. Try subscribing to the test feed, it works if you remove the hollow-box from the subscription name. 13. xml:base and xml:lang inheritance from atom:feed to entries xml:base and xml:lang at feed level should apply to all elements nested within the feed document. However the atom:feed element and its metadata can obviously change over time. This creates a problem: What if the atom:feed element contains an xml:base element, and it changes. The feed document as polled can be assumed to be consistent, but it would be wrong to retroactively apply this new base to old entries. In order to avoid these problems each entry needs to store the xml:lang and xml:base context at the time it was last seen in the document. I think that if a document has xml:lang set on atom:feed, then this attribute should be written to all item elements, unless it is overridden on that atom:entry element. Same for xml:base, except you might need to resolve the entry base against the feed base. Actually if you support feeds redirecting at the HTTP level, then you probably ought to always write the xml:base (and ensure that the feed URI is taken into account when generating it), else relative images and links will break after the redirection. Rewriting known elements such as atom:link to use absolute URLs based on the xml:base context is not an acceptable solution because you don't know which extension elements might contain URIs. 14. Inheritance of atom:author and atom:rights atom:author and atom:rights should be taken from the entry if available; else from ./atom:source/atom:author and ./atom:source/atom:rights; else from /atom:feed/atom:author and /atom:feed/atom:rights. Currently this inheritance doesn't happen, so unless you put atom:author on every entry, it doesn't get recognised. I suppose you ought to write these feed level elements to the item in all cases else when they change at feed level they will erroneously get retrospectively inherited to entry level. [Personally, I think feed/entry inheritance is a PITA, but that is how it works. Interference would be a better word for it. ] 15. Effect of xml:base on content xml:base affects links, but doesn't seem to affect links and images in HTML content. Kind of tricky to fix, perhaps you could run some javascript over the content to fix-up all of the src's and href's. Apart from those problems it looks pretty good. -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 02 16:56:08 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FEvmK-0003ex-Jp for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Mar 2006 16:56:08 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FEvmJ-00078D-87 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Mar 2006 16:56:08 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k22LgY7t011701; Thu, 2 Mar 2006 14:42:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k22LgYYR011700; Thu, 2 Mar 2006 14:42:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.198]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k22LgX6E011694 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2006 14:42:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 68so767389wra for ; Thu, 02 Mar 2006 13:42:32 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Fvl4klXKy9FVN/aVpi/l/zrF59FOqsgkboWWK0m1Q8XSXb4QDVnpPwXClAaVg+RQsdcrnP2Cm1BTTi95gF6nyYHFBEiu+DQP0xdAOPhcUAihxWROvKVtFYCpAGq5NY857KY1RxE4cgck0ZysnDIftwRkf8n67BNUztdtLyN+sMg= Received: by 10.54.151.7 with SMTP id y7mr1508420wrd; Thu, 02 Mar 2006 13:42:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.101? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 11sm4031004wrl.2006.03.02.13.42.31; Thu, 02 Mar 2006 13:42:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <440766C5.4010603@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2006 13:42:29 -0800 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Atom revision tracking extension References: <440638B8.1090909@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <440638B8.1090909@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Looks like it got through: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-revision-00.txt - James James M Snell wrote: > Generally experimental at this point. This has been submitted as an I-D > but won't go up until after the current publishing freeze is lifted. > Until then, you can find the draft here: > > http://www.snellspace.com/public/draft-snell-atompub-revision-00.txt > > As always, comments are welcome and desired. > > - James > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 06 10:22:13 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGHXJ-0003Dg-6z for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Mar 2006 10:22:13 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGHXH-0005lU-Qu for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Mar 2006 10:22:13 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k26Exida007684; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 07:59:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k26ExiVv007683; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 07:59:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k26ExhWL007677 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 07:59:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 4799 invoked by uid 17064); 6 Mar 2006 14:59:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [IPv6:::1]) ([192.220.66.168]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 6 Mar 2006 14:59:42 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <023AB1DB-F070-4BC8-8126-EB006D578899@bblfish.net> Cc: bloged Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: wiki mime type Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 15:59:39 +0100 To: Atom Syntax X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Silly question probably, but is there a wiki mime type? I was thinking of "text/wiki" or "text/x-wiki" or something. I want people to be able to edit their blogs in wiki format in BlogEd and be able to distinguish when they do that from when they enter plain text, html or xhtml. Perhaps this is also useful for the protocol. Henry From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 06 11:19:09 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGIQP-0004oC-5m for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Mar 2006 11:19:09 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGIMq-0008A2-OL for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Mar 2006 11:15:31 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k26FxKH5010618; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 08:59:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k26FxKvW010617; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 08:59:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx2.verity.com (mx2.verity.com [192.187.147.11]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k26FxJIB010608 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 08:59:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wunder@autonomy.com) Received: from VEX1.verity.com (verity-ex1 [192.168.4.151]) by latsop.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4344402; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 07:59:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.verity.com ([192.168.4.43]) by VEX1.verity.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 6 Mar 2006 07:59:50 -0800 Received: from localhost (spike2.verity.com [192.168.4.22]) by united.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75B454674; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 07:57:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2006 07:59:10 -0800 From: Walter Underwood To: Henry Story , Atom Syntax Cc: bloged Subject: Re: wiki mime type Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <023AB1DB-F070-4BC8-8126-EB006D578899@bblfish.net> References: <023AB1DB-F070-4BC8-8126-EB006D578899@bblfish.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.4 (Mac OS X) X-Face: 7Vqnb4fOVKsO)3JuUXKxR\M]:e"u'eG`Zue*.((7i7%P%rvZgS[j~95@C-s3i (s!e;OX`'Pngn5lq*Td}#,"5!^jm(65.";[GPtD^c(/1TtMe&wYO;_}\!}fRkxs%q#Jk 5E^BlXwR+8}qOwy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Mar 2006 15:59:50.0684 (UTC) FILETIME=[00123DC0:01C64137] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 --On March 6, 2006 3:59:39 PM +0100 Henry Story wrote: > > Silly question probably, but is there a wiki mime type? > I was thinking of "text/wiki" or "text/x-wiki" or something. > > I want people to be able to edit their blogs in wiki format in BlogEd and be able > to distinguish when they do that from when they enter plain text, html or xhtml. > Perhaps this is also useful for the protocol. It would be really useful, especially for feeds that archive the content of a blog. It would be best to use the official names of the formats, like "text/markdown" or "text/textile". The wikis and blogs that I use can be configured to accept different formats, so "text/wiki" doesn't work. wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Software Architect, Autonomy From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 06 13:02:41 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGK2b-0005xh-33 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Mar 2006 13:02:41 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGK2Z-0003eO-Iu for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Mar 2006 13:02:41 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k26HksR3016766; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 10:46:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k26HksCh016765; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 10:46:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k26HkrEr016755; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 10:46:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from fe-amer-03.sun.com ([192.18.108.177]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k26Hkq8u016413; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 10:46:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0IVP00601VJHYB00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) ; Mon, 06 Mar 2006 10:46:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.45] ([216.113.201.107]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0IVP001OPW245DV1@mail-amer.sun.com>; Mon, 06 Mar 2006 10:46:52 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2006 09:46:57 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Atom logo where? To: Atom Syntax , atom-protocol Protocol Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2870a44b67ee17965ce5ad0177e150f4 Where can one go to get versions of the atom logo (the one in view at atomenabled.org) in various sizes? -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 06 13:10:23 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGKA3-0001p7-6x for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Mar 2006 13:10:23 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGKA0-0003yE-L6 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Mar 2006 13:10:23 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k26HsLvl017350; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 10:54:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k26HsLX5017349; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 10:54:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from out4.smtp.messagingengine.com (out4.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k26HsLK6017342 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 10:54:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jtauber@jtauber.com) Received: from frontend1.internal (mysql-sessions.internal [10.202.2.149]) by frontend1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C78FD398C2; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 12:54:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from web2.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.211]) by frontend1.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 06 Mar 2006 12:54:19 -0500 Received: by web2.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id 341B3DBCC; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 12:54:13 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1141667653.11626.255949670@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Sasl-Enc: CTutHB+sP7IjMmCxHiX6K4/HP//PnwIBnYAadQAKApVW 1141667653 From: "James Tauber" To: "Walter Underwood" , "Henry Story" , "Atom Syntax" Cc: "bloged" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 5022 (F2.73; T1.15; A1.64; B3.05; Q3.03) References: <023AB1DB-F070-4BC8-8126-EB006D578899@bblfish.net> Subject: Re: wiki mime type In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2006 01:54:13 +0800 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Agreed that this would be very useful and also that it needs to be done on a per wiki format basis. I think, however, that this is something the format creators should be encouraged to register, or at least suggest a convention for. James On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 07:59:10 -0800, "Walter Underwood" said: > > --On March 6, 2006 3:59:39 PM +0100 Henry Story > wrote: > > > > Silly question probably, but is there a wiki mime type? > > I was thinking of "text/wiki" or "text/x-wiki" or something. > > > > I want people to be able to edit their blogs in wiki format in BlogEd and be able > > to distinguish when they do that from when they enter plain text, html or xhtml. > > Perhaps this is also useful for the protocol. > > It would be really useful, especially for feeds that archive the content > of a blog. It would be best to use the official names of the formats, > like > "text/markdown" or "text/textile". The wikis and blogs that I use can be > configured to accept different formats, so "text/wiki" doesn't work. > > wunder > -- > Walter Underwood > Principal Software Architect, Autonomy > -- James Tauber http://jtauber.com/ journeyman of some http://jtauber.com/blog/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 06 13:17:29 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGKGv-0001IA-12 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Mar 2006 13:17:29 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGKGt-0004MJ-FV for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Mar 2006 13:17:29 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k26I2Vsn017710; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 11:02:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k26I2V7T017709; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 11:02:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k26I2TKL017694 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 11:02:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 06 Mar 2006 18:02:21 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-245-241.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.245.241] by mail.gmx.net (mp020) with SMTP; 06 Mar 2006 19:02:21 +0100 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 19:02:23 +0100 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Atom logo where? Message-ID: <20060306180223.GR2783@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k26I2Vsn017710 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 * Tim Bray [2006-03-06 19:00]: >Where can one go to get versions of the atom logo (the one in >view at atomenabled.org) in various sizes? -Tim For that matter, who has seen Mena Trott=E2=80=99s alternative Atom logo design and what do people think about it? Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 06 14:33:37 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGLSb-0003Wz-K7 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Mar 2006 14:33:37 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGLSa-0006q7-95 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Mar 2006 14:33:37 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k26JJo9u021085; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 12:19:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k26JJoK1021084; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 12:19:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx2.verity.com (mx2.verity.com [192.187.147.11]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k26JJnKS021068 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 12:19:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wunder@autonomy.com) Received: from VEX1.verity.com (verity-ex1 [192.168.4.151]) by latsop.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 672CA338 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 11:19:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.verity.com ([192.168.4.43]) by VEX1.verity.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 6 Mar 2006 11:20:28 -0800 Received: from localhost (spike2.verity.com [192.168.4.22]) by united.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18A7D4674; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 11:18:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2006 11:19:48 -0800 From: Walter Underwood To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Atom logo where? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20060306180223.GR2783@klangraum> References: <20060306180223.GR2783@klangraum> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.4 (Mac OS X) X-Face: 7Vqnb4fOVKsO)3JuUXKxR\M]:e"u'eG`Zue*.((7i7%P%rvZgS[j~95@C-s3i (s!e;OX`'Pngn5lq*Td}#,"5!^jm(65.";[GPtD^c(/1TtMe&wYO;_}\!}fRkxs%q#Jk 5E^BlXwR+8}qOwy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Mar 2006 19:20:28.0371 (UTC) FILETIME=[07178230:01C64153] X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id k26JJoKS021079 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k26JJo9u021085 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 --On March 6, 2006 7:02:23 PM +0100 "A. Pagaltzis" wro= te: > > For that matter, who has seen Mena Trott=E2=80=99s alternative Atom log= o > design and what do people think about it? 1. I don't see why Atom needs a logo. 2. The proposed logo is probably too close to the Autonomy logo. I cannot speak for Autonomy lawyers, but companies are faced with=20 "defend it or lose it" on their trademarks. Autonomy is in the=20 unstructured info business, so there is probably a conflict. It also looks like the logo for the Austin Bergtrom International Airport, but that doesn't conflict. wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Software Architect, Autonomy From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 06 16:35:59 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGMkK-00033L-36 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Mar 2006 15:56:00 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGMkG-0003aC-7L for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Mar 2006 15:55:58 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k26Khjjv025141; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 13:43:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k26KhjfA025139; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 13:43:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from server02.deinternetman.nl (hosted.by.deinternetman.nl [83.98.145.60] (may be forged)) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k26KhhRA025110 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 13:43:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from fora@annevankesteren.nl) Received: (qmail 24582 invoked from network); 6 Mar 2006 21:43:44 +0100 Received: from localhost.deinternetman.net (HELO localhost) (127.0.0.1) by localhost.deinternetman.net with SMTP; 6 Mar 2006 21:43:44 +0100 Received: from pat-tdc.opera.com (pat-tdc.opera.com [213.236.208.22]) by webmail.annevankesteren.nl (Horde MIME library) with HTTP; Mon, 06 Mar 2006 21:43:44 +0100 Message-ID: <20060306214344.gz8m01nlktb4cc88@webmail.annevankesteren.nl> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2006 21:43:44 +0100 From: Anne van Kesteren To: Tim Bray Cc: Atom Syntax , atom-protocol Protocol Subject: Re: Atom logo where? References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.0.3) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Quoting Tim Bray : > Where can one go to get versions of the atom logo (the one in view at > atomenabled.org) in various sizes? -Tim I guess SVG fits that definition: http://zcorpan.1go.dk/sandbox/svg/atom/.xml -- Anne van Kesteren From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 06 21:59:46 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGSQM-000357-H7 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Mar 2006 21:59:46 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGSQJ-00059t-NW for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Mar 2006 21:59:46 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k272l1Bl043341; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 19:47:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k272l1JP043340; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 19:47:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k272l0EE043334 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 19:47:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from fe-amer-06.sun.com ([192.18.108.180]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k272kx8u001384 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 19:47:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0IVQ00C01KNOCE00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 06 Mar 2006 19:46:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.10.5.123] ([70.103.133.226]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0IVQ00E4TL2BRRH2@mail-amer.sun.com> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 06 Mar 2006 19:46:59 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2006 18:47:03 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Atom logo where? In-reply-to: <20060306214344.gz8m01nlktb4cc88@webmail.annevankesteren.nl> To: Atom Syntax Message-id: <1201F7B8-CE1F-42BA-82F2-F19E72D35104@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20060306214344.gz8m01nlktb4cc88@webmail.annevankesteren.nl> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad On Mar 6, 2006, at 12:43 PM, Anne van Kesteren wrote: > Quoting Tim Bray : >> Where can one go to get versions of the atom logo (the one in view >> at atomenabled.org) in various sizes? -Tim > > I guess SVG fits that definition: > http://zcorpan.1go.dk/sandbox/svg/atom/.xml Oooh, now that is *cool*. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Mar 07 12:05:21 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGfcf-0001cd-5Y for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Mar 2006 12:05:21 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGfcb-0002Rs-Mf for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Mar 2006 12:05:21 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k27GpokP086707; Tue, 7 Mar 2006 09:51:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k27GpoWT086706; Tue, 7 Mar 2006 09:51:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k27GpnEc086700 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2006 09:51:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 27325 invoked by uid 17064); 7 Mar 2006 16:51:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [IPv6:::1]) ([192.220.66.168]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 7 Mar 2006 16:51:47 -0000 In-Reply-To: <1141667653.11626.255949670@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <023AB1DB-F070-4BC8-8126-EB006D578899@bblfish.net> <1141667653.11626.255949670@webmail.messagingengine.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <010CF51C-7E95-4DC4-AC3F-941457C7027F@bblfish.net> Cc: "Walter Underwood" , "Atom Syntax" , "bloged" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: wiki mime type Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 17:51:42 +0100 To: James Tauber X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 On 6 Mar 2006, at 18:54, James Tauber wrote: > Agreed that this would be very useful and also that it needs to be > done > on a per wiki format basis. Is there a forum a large number of them tend to hang out on, so that one could ask them to think about this? What would be the best to do in the meantime? Something like text/x-wiki+textile text/x-wiki+markdown perhaps? > I think, however, that this is something the format creators should be > encouraged to register, or at least suggest a convention for. > > James > > On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 07:59:10 -0800, "Walter Underwood" > said: >> >> --On March 6, 2006 3:59:39 PM +0100 Henry Story >> >> wrote: >>> >>> Silly question probably, but is there a wiki mime type? >>> I was thinking of "text/wiki" or "text/x-wiki" or something. >>> >>> I want people to be able to edit their blogs in wiki format in >>> BlogEd and be able >>> to distinguish when they do that from when they enter plain >>> text, html or xhtml. >>> Perhaps this is also useful for the protocol. >> >> It would be really useful, especially for feeds that archive the >> content >> of a blog. It would be best to use the official names of the formats, >> like >> "text/markdown" or "text/textile". The wikis and blogs that I use >> can be >> configured to accept different formats, so "text/wiki" doesn't work. >> >> wunder >> -- >> Walter Underwood >> Principal Software Architect, Autonomy >> > -- > James Tauber http://jtauber.com/ > journeyman of some http://jtauber.com/blog/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Mar 07 12:06:24 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGfdg-0002BS-Jq for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Mar 2006 12:06:24 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGfdg-0002Uy-7e for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Mar 2006 12:06:24 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k27GteH5086865; Tue, 7 Mar 2006 09:55:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k27GteUB086864; Tue, 7 Mar 2006 09:55:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx2.verity.com (mx2.verity.com [192.187.147.11]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k27GtdT9086858 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2006 09:55:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wunder@autonomy.com) Received: from VEX1.verity.com (verity-ex1 [192.168.4.151]) by latsop.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB32041D; Tue, 7 Mar 2006 08:55:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.verity.com ([192.168.4.43]) by VEX1.verity.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 7 Mar 2006 08:56:19 -0800 Received: from localhost (spike2.verity.com [192.168.4.22]) by united.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 288C2475B; Tue, 7 Mar 2006 08:54:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2006 08:55:39 -0800 From: Walter Underwood To: Henry Story , James Tauber Cc: Atom Syntax , bloged Subject: Re: wiki mime type Message-ID: <6710B57D222A2108BB15A672@adsl-64-166-133-244.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <010CF51C-7E95-4DC4-AC3F-941457C7027F@bblfish.net> References: <023AB1DB-F070-4BC8-8126-EB006D578899@bblfish.net> <1141667653.11626.255949670@webmail.messagingengine.com> <010CF51C-7E95-4DC4-AC3F-941457C7027F@bblfish.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.4 (Mac OS X) X-Face: 7Vqnb4fOVKsO)3JuUXKxR\M]:e"u'eG`Zue*.((7i7%P%rvZgS[j~95@C-s3i (s!e;OX`'Pngn5lq*Td}#,"5!^jm(65.";[GPtD^c(/1TtMe&wYO;_}\!}fRkxs%q#Jk 5E^BlXwR+8}qOwy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Mar 2006 16:56:19.0981 (UTC) FILETIME=[0EA9ABD0:01C64208] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4b800b1eab964a31702fa68f1ff0e955 It isn't "wiki". Those are used in blogs, and I use Markdown for simple HTML memos. Don't use "x-", either. Register a real type. wunder --On March 7, 2006 5:51:42 PM +0100 Henry Story wrote: > > On 6 Mar 2006, at 18:54, James Tauber wrote: >> Agreed that this would be very useful and also that it needs to be >> done >> on a per wiki format basis. > > Is there a forum a large number of them tend to hang out on, so that one could ask them to think about this? What would be the best to do in the meantime? Something like > > text/x-wiki+textile > text/x-wiki+markdown > > perhaps? > > >> I think, however, that this is something the format creators should be >> encouraged to register, or at least suggest a convention for. >> >> James >> >> On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 07:59:10 -0800, "Walter Underwood" >> said: >>> >>> --On March 6, 2006 3:59:39 PM +0100 Henry Story >>> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Silly question probably, but is there a wiki mime type? >>>> I was thinking of "text/wiki" or "text/x-wiki" or something. >>>> >>>> I want people to be able to edit their blogs in wiki format in >>>> BlogEd and be able >>>> to distinguish when they do that from when they enter plain >>>> text, html or xhtml. >>>> Perhaps this is also useful for the protocol. >>> >>> It would be really useful, especially for feeds that archive the >>> content >>> of a blog. It would be best to use the official names of the formats, >>> like >>> "text/markdown" or "text/textile". The wikis and blogs that I use >>> can be >>> configured to accept different formats, so "text/wiki" doesn't work. >>> >>> wunder >>> -- >>> Walter Underwood >>> Principal Software Architect, Autonomy >>> >> -- >> James Tauber http://jtauber.com/ >> journeyman of some http://jtauber.com/blog/ > > -- Walter Underwood Principal Software Architect, Autonomy From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Mar 07 13:06:31 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGgZr-0002J9-Mp for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Mar 2006 13:06:31 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGgZq-0004rt-CJ for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Mar 2006 13:06:31 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k27Hose7089775; Tue, 7 Mar 2006 10:50:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k27Hosil089774; Tue, 7 Mar 2006 10:50:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [10.20.30.249] (dsl2-63-249-108-169.cruzio.com [63.249.108.169]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k27Hok2E089765; Tue, 7 Mar 2006 10:50:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6710B57D222A2108BB15A672@adsl-64-166-133-244.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> References: <023AB1DB-F070-4BC8-8126-EB006D578899@bblfish.net> <1141667653.11626.255949670@webmail.messagingengine.com> <010CF51C-7E95-4DC4-AC3F-941457C7027F@bblfish.net> <6710B57D222A2108BB15A672@adsl-64-166-133-244.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 09:50:45 -0800 To: Walter Underwood , Henry Story , James Tauber From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: wiki mime type Cc: Atom Syntax , bloged Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 At 8:55 AM -0800 3/7/06, Walter Underwood wrote: >Don't use "x-", either. Register a real type. +1 --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Mar 07 14:54:26 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGiGI-0005t3-Um for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Mar 2006 14:54:26 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGiGH-0000OR-Hm for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Mar 2006 14:54:26 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k27JefJ1094894; Tue, 7 Mar 2006 12:40:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k27Jefi4094893; Tue, 7 Mar 2006 12:40:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from barebones.com (mail.barebones.com [204.107.232.35]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k27JeeRj094874 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2006 12:40:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jim.correia@pobox.com) Received: from [204.107.232.110] (account correia HELO [204.107.232.110]) by barebones.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP id 9762149 for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 07 Mar 2006 14:36:10 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <626E3D0F-C4ED-4ABA-B7D0-05F7AA6C6D72@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: Atom Syntax From: Jim Correia Subject: Using Atom for a software update feed - syntax advice? Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 14:40:39 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d First, a background question. So that I understand things correctly, a typical weblog which provides full content and an excerpt in the feed would use atom:summary - exceprt atom:content - full entry atom:link[rel=alternate] - link to web page representation Is that correct? I'm considering using atom to represent that data for a the software update engine built into an application I am writing. On the one hand, the primary use for the feed is going to be automated consumption by the application, so the exact details of that format don't matter. But I'd like to get it right, and have the feed useful to feed readers, not just my automated software update checker. I'd like to have a summary of the release, full release notes, and the tarball for the software. My original thoughts where atom:summary - summary atom:content or atom:link[rel=alternate] - full release notes atom:link[rel=enclosure] - tarball package But then I read James Snell's article at http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-atom10.html His podcasting example uses enclosures. His photo and software update examples uses non-text atom:content elements to represent the data. Which is the conceptually more correct approach here? Which is the more practical approach? (Working with off the shelf feed readers would be desirable.) Thanks, Jim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Mar 07 15:24:45 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGijd-0006By-Cd for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Mar 2006 15:24:45 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGija-0001GN-VH for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Mar 2006 15:24:45 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k27K7ZZS096379; Tue, 7 Mar 2006 13:07:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k27K7ZYI096378; Tue, 7 Mar 2006 13:07:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.193]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k27K7YTx096372 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2006 13:07:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i13so250970wra for ; Tue, 07 Mar 2006 12:07:34 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=uD09TeTSzpTkseb9lVN0fXYBOINqmjlqpF6NM8JVpcobSCPqjRqnToF7Q8s+ek4ZbqOTVyg87WWLqusIeAehi3xwkiDgLQDY7+6KZPwtRDXXp+Xu/jhVyLrz7vikejxEfaOy1w6Ih4LE7CBu4E1VtNh4x+L+vcnYsiqol508eUw= Received: by 10.54.148.17 with SMTP id v17mr820282wrd; Tue, 07 Mar 2006 12:07:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.101? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 33sm737265wra.2006.03.07.12.07.33; Tue, 07 Mar 2006 12:07:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <440DE802.5030401@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2006 12:07:30 -0800 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Correia CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Using Atom for a software update feed - syntax advice? References: <626E3D0F-C4ED-4ABA-B7D0-05F7AA6C6D72@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <626E3D0F-C4ED-4ABA-B7D0-05F7AA6C6D72@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 All of the feedback I received on that article pointed to a preference of using enclosure links for the software update feed, rather than the content element. Jim Correia wrote: >[snip] > I'd like to have a summary of the release, full release notes, and the > tarball for the software. My original thoughts where > > atom:summary - summary > atom:content or atom:link[rel=alternate] - full release notes > atom:link[rel=enclosure] - tarball package > This is good. You might also want to consider taking a look at the Link Extensions draft I put together. It's purely experimental at this point, but may include some useful ideas. http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-link-extensions-02.txt From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Mar 07 15:48:56 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGj72-0008FB-0P for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Mar 2006 15:48:56 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGj71-0001ww-Lp for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Mar 2006 15:48:55 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k27KN9o5097030; Tue, 7 Mar 2006 13:23:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k27KN9a5097029; Tue, 7 Mar 2006 13:23:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from barebones.com (mail.barebones.com [204.107.232.35]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k27KN8hX097023 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2006 13:23:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jim.correia@pobox.com) Received: from [204.107.232.110] (account correia HELO [204.107.232.110]) by barebones.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP id 9762255 for atom-syntax@imc.org; Tue, 07 Mar 2006 15:18:38 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <440DE802.5030401@gmail.com> References: <626E3D0F-C4ED-4ABA-B7D0-05F7AA6C6D72@pobox.com> <440DE802.5030401@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <0BCDBC05-0B5F-427F-957C-208ED9D7D177@pobox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jim Correia Subject: Re: Using Atom for a software update feed - syntax advice? Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 15:23:07 -0500 To: Atom Syntax X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f On Mar 7, 2006, at 3:07 PM, James M Snell wrote: > All of the feedback I received on that article pointed to a preference > of using enclosure links for the software update feed, rather than the > content element. Thanks. I didn't know what the prior art here was with Atom. RSS 2.0 based software update feeds are using the enclosure element (which seems like the only real choice there.) In your article you also give an example of a photo feed with the photos in the content element. Was there any preference for using links there as well and putting something else in the content? Is there prior art here? Jim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 08 14:34:50 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FH4Qs-0003xp-85 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 14:34:50 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FH4Qr-0005Fo-Ks for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 14:34:50 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k28JAJxI059642; Wed, 8 Mar 2006 12:10:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k28JAJXq059641; Wed, 8 Mar 2006 12:10:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpout08-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout08-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.12]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k28JAIIv059630 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2006 12:10:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jamesy@softwareme.com) Message-Id: <200603081910.k28JAIIv059630@balder-227.proper.com> Received: (qmail 14723 invoked from network); 8 Mar 2006 19:10:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (209.216.191.77) by smtpout08-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.12) with ESMTP; 08 Mar 2006 19:10:12 -0000 From: "James Yenne" To: Subject: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 11:10:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_05C7_01C642A0.E23543E0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcZC4+56Tmf+3x0vTymsFVuJ9FIl3Q== Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8fbbaa16f9fd29df280814cb95ae2290 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_05C7_01C642A0.E23543E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit IE6 and FF render Atom/RSS feeds as html using the xml-stylesheet directive, however, IE7 Beta 2 drops the feed's xml-stylesheet directive, if one exists, and replacing with IE7's own stylesheet containing the gray to blue gradient background with the MS RSS extensions for navigation/collation. This rendering is all pre subscribe, so the feed has not been converted to RSS yet. I had an email conversation last week with Sean Lyndersay about this, and his take is that "this is a feed intended for rendering in an aggregator" and "Publishers' don't have control over the look of their feed in" other readers. My counterpoint is that this is non-standard approach because the xml-stylesheet directive is a standard XML directive, and IE7 (the reader, not the browser) is essentially saying that RSS/Atom are not first of all XML and should be handled in some proprietary way through IE's display/navigation layer. Feeds that use the xml-stylesheet to provide custom navigation are now in IE7 required to use the IE7 navigation xsl, which is not standard. The solution, I believe, is that the IE7 proprietary rendering (and xml-stylesheet removal) be the default ONLY when none is provided, which is probably most cases. I would call IE7 dropping xml-stylesheet directives a data lose issue. So my question is, what is the right thing for the browser to do? When is a browser a feed reader, and thus (I guess) simply can drop elements from the feed at will? Can a browser just drop xml-stylesheet directives at will? Thanks, James ------=_NextPart_000_05C7_01C642A0.E23543E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
IE6 and FF render Atom/RSS feeds as html = using the=20 xml-stylesheet directive, however, IE7 Beta 2 drops the feed's = xml-stylesheet=20 directive, if one exists, and replacing with IE7's own stylesheet=20 containing the gray to blue gradient background with the MS RSS = extensions for=20 navigation/collation.  This rendering is all pre subscribe, so the = feed has=20 not been converted to RSS yet.  I had an = email=20 conversation last week with = Sean=20 Lyndersay about this, and his take is that "this is a feed intended for=20 rendering in an aggregator" and "Publishers’ don’t have = control over the look of=20 their feed in" other readers. =20
 
My counterpoint is that this is non-standard = approach=20 because the xml-stylesheet directive is a standard XML directive, and = IE7 (the=20 reader, not the browser) is essentially saying that RSS/Atom are = not first=20 of all XML and should be handled in some proprietary way through IE's=20 display/navigation layer.  Feeds that use = the=20 xml-stylesheet to provide custom navigation are now in IE7 required = to use=20 the IE7 navigation xsl, which is not standard.  The solution, I = believe, is=20 that the IE7 proprietary rendering (and xml-stylesheet removal) be the = default=20 ONLY when none is provided, which is probably most=20 cases.
 
I would call IE7 dropping xml-stylesheet directives a data lose = issue.  So my question is, = what is the=20 right thing for the browser to do?  When is a browser a feed = reader, and=20 thus (I guess) simply can drop elements from the feed at will?  Can = a=20 browser just drop xml-stylesheet directives at=20 will? 
 
Thanks,
James
 
------=_NextPart_000_05C7_01C642A0.E23543E0-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 08 14:59:32 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FH4om-0001XB-RD for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 14:59:32 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FH4ol-0006Jw-9a for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 14:59:32 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k28JacaT061259; Wed, 8 Mar 2006 12:36:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k28JacFA061258; Wed, 8 Mar 2006 12:36:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k28JaaLS061219 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2006 12:36:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 08 Mar 2006 19:36:27 -0000 Received: from xdsl-81-173-174-173.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [81.173.174.173] by mail.gmx.net (mp037) with SMTP; 08 Mar 2006 20:36:27 +0100 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 20:36:28 +0100 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue Message-ID: <20060308193628.GF2783@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <200603081910.k28JAIIv059630@balder-227.proper.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200603081910.k28JAIIv059630@balder-227.proper.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad * James Yenne [2006-03-08 20:30]: >I would call IE7 dropping xml-stylesheet directives a data lose >issue. Neither desktop nor online aggregators (such as NetNewsWire and Bloglines) have ever paid attention to such directives. What is your opinion on that? Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 08 16:14:55 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FH5zh-0000hp-Kn for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 16:14:53 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FH5zh-0006b7-3D for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 16:14:53 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k28Kv6c2065125; Wed, 8 Mar 2006 13:57:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k28Kv63b065124; Wed, 8 Mar 2006 13:57:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nproxy.gmail.com (nproxy.gmail.com [64.233.182.207]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k28Kv45W065118 for ; 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Wed, 08 Mar 2006 16:31:54 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FH6G8-0007z0-Vs for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 16:31:54 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k28LFk0K065982; Wed, 8 Mar 2006 14:15:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k28LFkdI065981; Wed, 8 Mar 2006 14:15:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpout07-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout07-01.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.230]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k28LFkjc065974 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2006 14:15:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jamesy@softwareme.com) Message-Id: <200603082115.k28LFkjc065974@balder-227.proper.com> Received: (qmail 18326 invoked from network); 8 Mar 2006 21:15:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (209.216.191.77) by smtpout07-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.233) with ESMTP; 08 Mar 2006 21:15:40 -0000 From: "James Yenne" To: , "'A. Pagaltzis'" Subject: RE: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 13:15:43 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcZC7EEvr1477/pLTB+OeOHpMbYpBgAAMuiAAAH643A= In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a These are feed readers, whether web apps or stand alone apps, and have had a lot of room to maneuver, but even in these applications when presenting the actual content of entries vis-a-vis the outline view, it would be "nice" if they used the stylesheet directives. IE6 and FF are browsers and use these directives for rendering XML, and FF is also a feed reader in this mode, and still uses the directives. IE7 is a browser too, and introduces new behavior not found in IE6 and FF. Now that IE7 is a feed reader too, it's dumping standard browser behavior. -----Original Message----- From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of A. Pagaltzis Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 11:36 AM To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue * James Yenne [2006-03-08 20:30]: >I would call IE7 dropping xml-stylesheet directives a data lose issue. Neither desktop nor online aggregators (such as NetNewsWire and Bloglines) have ever paid attention to such directives. What is your opinion on that? Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 09 02:59:42 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHG3i-0002qY-8k for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 02:59:42 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHG3e-0007vf-EP for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 02:59:42 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k297hebX088858; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 00:43:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k297hekC088857; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 00:43:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.200]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k297hc75088851 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 00:43:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from xmlhacker@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 50so355649wri for ; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 23:43:38 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=JOOA+xqzSVdjy/8aP183raL60jMPlnQ6vWVqhrNIuY39Z4/wfotPIHF38oJYNTB+VYQ8v0wKI/qWHvRxDoRxZp8FRcXDi1KmD9Sk61Iqj6NzVvkmp5w6diXRWgc02Ks7vCUOYoJl+AwnTWczrScWWhtoDeamRihFUfTUWcnpwAo= Received: by 10.64.181.5 with SMTP id d5mr836274qbf; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 23:43:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.183.15 with HTTP; Wed, 8 Mar 2006 23:43:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 00:43:38 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "David Nesting" Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <8d99d3010603081257k2dc98feclf4544f2dfc19f597@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2168_3671880.1141890218361" References: <200603081910.k28JAIIv059630@balder-227.proper.com> <8d99d3010603081257k2dc98feclf4544f2dfc19f597@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a069a8e8835d39ce36e425c148267a7b ------=_Part_2168_3671880.1141890218361 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline Pj4gV2hlbiB5b3UgcHJvdmlkZSBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBpbiBhbiBYTUwgZm9ybWF0LCB5b3UncmUg cHJvdmlkaW5nCmluZm9ybWF0aW9uLCBub3QgYSB3ZWIgcGFnZS4gIFlvdSBtYXkgZGVzaXJlIHRv IGhhdmUgaXQgcmVuZGVyZWQgYSBjZXJ0YWluCndheSB3aGVuIGl0J3MgcmVuZGVyZWQgYnkgYSB3 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Wed, 08 Mar 2006 23:57:43 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=ZYZA+ZZUTdfnEWsllZx8crAeBbL+vq7eiMq2ZScFOtM/S3rpIti5AgLRcQxZK1EZr4f95RR2P4mSuM1jT/CxN+j74PPvSC7JOq3GjAEc8CzBpDD0RhHkgHGdzNullFN0HX/UuDWTLo+PQM/5NBWwa6yp46UAZoh4wZ+QHLhSOCI= Received: by 10.65.234.17 with SMTP id l17mr74714qbr; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 23:57:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.183.15 with HTTP; Wed, 8 Mar 2006 23:57:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 00:57:42 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "David Nesting" Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2388_31740548.1141891062898" References: <200603081910.k28JAIIv059630@balder-227.proper.com> <8d99d3010603081257k2dc98feclf4544f2dfc19f597@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 410b68b37343617c6913e76d02180b14 ------=_Part_2388_31740548.1141891062898 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline YnR3Li4uIHRvIGJlIHBlcmZlY3RseSBjbGVhciwgeW91ciBzdGF0ZW1lbnQgaW5jbHVkZXMgdGhl IHdvcmQgImNvbnN1bWVycyIKd2hpY2gsIGlmIHRob3VnaHQgb2YgaW4gdGVybXMgb2YgdGhlIGVu ZCB1c2VyLCB0aGVuIGluIGZhY3QgeW91ciBwb2ludCBjb3VsZApiZSBzZWVuIGFzIHZhbGlkOyBv ciBpbiBvdGhlciB3b3JkcyAiSXQgc2hvdWxkIGJlIHRoZSBlbmQgdXNlcnMgY2hvaWNlIHRvCnVz 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David Peterson" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue In-Reply-To: <20060308193628.GF2783@klangraum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2992_26405823.1141894120634" References: <200603081910.k28JAIIv059630@balder-227.proper.com> <20060308193628.GF2783@klangraum> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: fb6060cb60c0cea16e3f7219e40a0a81 ------=_Part_2992_26405823.1141894120634 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline QXJpc3RvdGxlLAoKQm90aCBvZiB0aGVzZSBhcmUgc2VydmljZXMsIG5vdCBicm93c2Vycy4gIEFz IGEgc2VydmljZSwgaXRzCnVuZGVyc3RhbmRhYmxlLi4uICBMaW1pdGVkIHNlcnZlciByZXNvdXJj ZXMgd291bGQganVzdGlmeSB0aGlzLCBhcyB3b3VsZCB0aGUKbmVlZCB0byBjYWNoZSB0aGUgZGF0 YSBmZWVkLCBhbmQgdGhlIHJlbGF0ZWQgdHJhbnNmb3JtYXRpb24gb3IgY3NzIGZpbGVzLgpIb3dl dmVyLCB3aGVuIHRoZSBjbGllbnQgYWNjZXNzZXMgdGhlIGZlZWQgZGlyZWN0bHkgZnJvbSB0aGUg YnJvd3NlciwgdGhlCnJlc291cmNlcyBhcmUgbm8gbG9uZ2VyIGFuIGlzc3VlLCBhcyB5b3VyIGRl YWxpbmcgd2l0aCBhIG9uZS10by1vbmUKcmVsYXRpb25zaGlwIGJldHdlZW4gdXNlciBhbmQgbWFj aGluZSwgYW5kIHlvdXIgYWxzbyBkZWFsaW5nIHdpdGggYSBicm93c2VyCnRoYXQgaGFzIGFsd2F5 cyByZW5kZXJlZCB0aGUgWE1MIGZpbGVzIGFzIHNwZWNpZmllZCB0aGUgUEkgZGlyZWN0aXZlcywg YXMKbG9uZyBhcyB0aG9zZSBmaWxlcyBhcmUgdmFsaWQgWFNMVCBhbmQvb3IgQ1NTIGZpbGVzIGlu IHdoaWNoIElFIHN1cHBvcnRzLgpXaGlsZSB5b3UgY291bGQgYXJndWUgdGhhdCBDU1Mgc3VwcG9y dCBpcyBkb2RneSBhdCBiZXN0LCBYU0xUIHN1cHBvcnQgaXMKcXVpdGUgdGhlIG9wcG9zaXRlLgoK UGxlYXNlIGRvbid0IHRha2UgdGhpcyB0aGUgd3Jvbmcgd2F5Li4uIHRoaXMgaXNuJ3QgYSBsYXNo IGJhY2sgYWdhaW5zdCB5b3UsCmFuZCBpbnN0ZWFkIGFuIGF0dGVtcHQgdG8gdHJ5IGFuZCBzZXBh cmF0ZSB3aGF0IGNhbiBiZSBzZWVuIGFzIGEgc2VydmljZQpwcm92aWRlciB3aG8gaGFzIG5ldmVy IHByb3ZpZGVkIHN1cHBvcnQgdGhpcyB0aGlzLCBhbmQgYW4gYXBwbGljYXRpb24gaW4Kd2hpY2gg aGFzIGZvciB0aGUgbGFzdCA1IHllYXJzLgoKT24gMy84LzA2LCBBLiBQYWdhbHR6aXMgPHBhZ2Fs dHppc0BnbXguZGU+IHdyb3RlOgo+Cj4KPiAqIEphbWVzIFllbm5lIDxqYW1lc3lAc29mdHdhcmVt ZS5jb20+IFsyMDA2LTAzLTA4IDIwOjMwXToKPiA+SSB3b3VsZCBjYWxsIElFNyBkcm9wcGluZyB4 bWwtc3R5bGVzaGVldCBkaXJlY3RpdmVzIGEgZGF0YSBsb3NlCj4gPmlzc3VlLgo+Cj4gTmVpdGhl ciBkZXNrdG9wIG5vciBvbmxpbmUgYWdncmVnYXRvcnMgKHN1Y2ggYXMgTmV0TmV3c1dpcmUgYW5k Cj4gQmxvZ2xpbmVzKSBoYXZlIGV2ZXIgcGFpZCBhdHRlbnRpb24gdG8gc3VjaCBkaXJlY3RpdmVz LiBXaGF0IGlzCj4geW91ciBvcGluaW9uIG9uIHRoYXQ/Cj4KPiBSZWdhcmRzLAo+IC0tCj4gQXJp c3RvdGxlIFBhZ2FsdHppcyAvLyA8aHR0cDovL3BsYXNtYXN0dXJtLm9yZy8+Cj4KPgoKCi0tCjxN OkQvPgoKTS4gRGF2aWQgUGV0ZXJzb24KaHR0cDovL3d3dy54c2x0YmxvZy5jb20vCg== ------=_Part_2992_26405823.1141894120634 Content-Type: text/html; 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David Peterson" To: "James Yenne" Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3196_18678962.1141895584062" References: <200603081910.k28JAIIv059630@balder-227.proper.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 87a3f533bb300b99e2a18357f3c1563d ------=_Part_3196_18678962.1141895584062 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline PiBmb3IgdXNlciBkZWZpbmFibGUgcmVuZGVyaW5nIG9mIGEgd2ViIGZlZWQuCgphbmQgcHVibGlz aGVyIGRlZmluYWJsZS4gIFNvcnJ5LCB3aGF0IEkgc2FpZCwgd2FzIGluIGZhY3QsIG5vdCBpbmNs dXNpdmUgb2YKeW91ciBwb2ludCByZWdhcmRpbmcgcHVibGlzaGVyIGNvbnRyb2wuICBUaGVyZSBh cmUgcGxlbnR5IG9mIGZlZWQgcmVhZGVycwp0aGF0IG9mZmVyIHRoaXMgbGV2ZWwgb2YgY29udHJv bC4gIEZvciBleGFtcGxlLCBJRSA2LCBGeCwgT3BlcmEsIGFuZCBTYWZhcmkKLS0geWVzLCB0aGV5 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b=P65F4uOCQKIaXcyjmxq7ykN0uAWqlRvHA5A+1b4OazZm/eraHTAyD8rwrT9y+7WNJ5Dm8WEOJ4y8lzsxGvUDbZJc1G+0iHYQQig0DZaw4uDcjQ8dypG4pgrijQJc1m5Cm+9Mn9eDCKCb1NHEWwTs16r6mO/ypeBvgfGzfxV3w3E= Received: by 10.48.232.9 with SMTP id e9mr863867nfh; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 05:58:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.49.56.15 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 05:58:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <8d99d3010603090558x632953ddj49550c9b91140f7d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 07:58:39 -0600 From: "David Nesting" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4540_8623062.1141912719332" References: <200603081910.k28JAIIv059630@balder-227.proper.com> <8d99d3010603081257k2dc98feclf4544f2dfc19f597@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 42e3ed3f10a1d8bef690f09da16f507a ------=_Part_4540_8623062.1141912719332 Content-Type: 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k29EFHFl007406; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 07:15:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k29EFHUw007405; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 07:15:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from relay00.pair.com (relay00.pair.com [209.68.5.9]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k29EFGDs007398 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 07:15:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from KlausRusch@atmedia.net) Received: (qmail 89321 invoked from network); 9 Mar 2006 14:15:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.0.0.3?) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 9 Mar 2006 14:15:15 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 85.124.9.64 Message-ID: <44103875.4080900@atmedia.net> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 15:15:17 +0100 From: Klaus Johannes Rusch Reply-To: KlausRusch@atmedia.net Organization: atmedia.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en, de, be MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Nesting CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue References: <200603081910.k28JAIIv059630@balder-227.proper.com> <8d99d3010603081257k2dc98feclf4544f2dfc19f597@mail.gmail.com> <8d99d3010603090558x632953ddj49550c9b91140f7d@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <8d99d3010603090558x632953ddj49550c9b91140f7d@mail.gmail.com> X-URL: http://www.atmedia.net/KlausRusch/ X-Face: /=6bf:DKx+qGlELMa`+m}`IvymPh@=hTwZZ|ab^|%6y5J,/N|N@D72anwzS~\~>~qV@kwi'SQ3PfX/"Qy[Tkexnt`&jP{Rs,zpI'BnL}EQ|)^qTS{q@9XYMg;.&(iAD6F%Px:q*nPc)[5$[I"EdM*Kd?~sz1s.R#'9xWA@S|6TN>g Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a David Nesting wrote: > So the real question is: How can site authors instruct a web > browser-feed reader hybrid when it should treat an > application/atom+xml document as a web page (via xml-stylesheet) and > when it should treat it as a consumable feed? Perhaps it is > reasonable for these types of applications to work like this: > > 1. If the feed is requested in the context of a "web" link, and it has > an xml-stylesheet directive, treat it as a web page > 2. If the feed is requested within the context of the feed reading > component of the application (thus no web "context"), or would simply > be rendered as raw XML due to the lack of an xml-stylesheet processing > instruction, treat it as a raw feed and present it subject to the feed > reader UI guidelines. Unless the "context" is stored with the feed, the user experience will be different when a user follows a link from another page (rendered as Web page) and later loads the same link again from the bookmarks (rendered as an XML feed). -- Klaus Johannes Rusch KlausRusch@atmedia.net http://www.atmedia.net/KlausRusch/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 09 09:32:06 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHMBS-0003LM-Eq for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 09:32:06 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHMBQ-0003uk-NM for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 09:32:06 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k29EJTCU007824; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 07:19:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k29EJTZx007823; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 07:19:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.197]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k29EJSv5007813 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 07:19:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from xmlhacker@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id x7so464966nzc for ; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 06:19:27 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=hBH3dIJD2bhvikkk+jHrrlXLv2qytDpVZvogGISAgz1EpJhXLB2+MtUO4BlZgjfTW+hvxsmZDhZkR5jzMrM8hPp36bAhOiwfiI+t/mHuer0ZhrnddFe+GsiwQ83MHYmyRy315YR6DXwheKRuIrTU3Wn12/ZmJBsTCHX8mZ/97ps= Received: by 10.64.183.16 with SMTP id g16mr1041155qbf; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 06:19:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.183.15 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 06:19:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 07:19:27 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "David Nesting" Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <8d99d3010603090559g59022f78x3455bf4882f9b67@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1157_21372889.1141913967653" References: <200603081910.k28JAIIv059630@balder-227.proper.com> <8d99d3010603081257k2dc98feclf4544f2dfc19f597@mail.gmail.com> <8d99d3010603090558x632953ddj49550c9b91140f7d@mail.gmail.com> <8d99d3010603090559g59022f78x3455bf4882f9b67@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2bf730a014b318fd3efd65b39b48818c ------=_Part_1157_21372889.1141913967653 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline PiBUaGF0IGJlaW5nIHNhaWQsIGFzIEkgbm90ZWQgaW4gbXkgZWFybGllciBlLW1haWwsIEkgZG8g YWdyZWUgdGhhdCB0aGlzIElFCmJlaGF2aW9yIGNoYW5nZSBicmVha3Mgc29tZSBub24tdHJhZGl0 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b20vIj5odHRwOi8vd3d3LnhzbHRibG9nLmNvbS88L2E+CiAK ------=_Part_1157_21372889.1141913967653-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 09 09:40:59 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHMK3-000477-7v for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 09:40:59 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHMK2-00049D-EF for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 09:40:59 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k29ENZWC008099; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 07:23:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k29ENZ0c008098; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 07:23:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to 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David Peterson" To: "David Nesting" Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <8d99d3010603090558x632953ddj49550c9b91140f7d@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1213_7268928.1141914212981" References: <200603081910.k28JAIIv059630@balder-227.proper.com> <8d99d3010603081257k2dc98feclf4544f2dfc19f597@mail.gmail.com> <8d99d3010603090558x632953ddj49550c9b91140f7d@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 2.4 (++) X-Scan-Signature: a1f9797ba297220533cb8c3f4bc709a8 ------=_Part_1213_7268928.1141914212981 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline TGV0cyB0cnkgdGhhdCBhZ2FpbiwgdG8gZXZlcnlvbmUgdGhpcyB0aW1lOgoKIEkgdGhpbmsgd2Ug YXJlIGJvdGggb24gdGhlIHNhbWUgcGFnZS4gIEknbSBnbGFkIHRvIHNlZSB0aGF0LiAgIEkgd2Fz 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megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHNPL-0004d3-1r for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 10:50:31 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHNPJ-00066Q-G2 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 10:50:31 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k29FUSv2011669; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 08:30:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k29FUSCm011668; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 08:30:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nproxy.gmail.com (nproxy.gmail.com [64.233.182.204]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k29FUQUX011662 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 08:30:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from david.nesting@gmail.com) Received: by nproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id y38so355482nfb for ; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 07:30:26 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=JOcRa0pF21kkQ/tx8QV2KhMGchNqB3mePG5eCMuEZ/bdaIo0uO5MFzZrhzWR2bklAquXfYIuM7CEqYp7gsNglccpJAFyXFEztkNotlLfN66yl17/NKHv6wqITOhVzNUFU13TbimJVlUne4io/gZLaSWTtpx3E8mlElclEOOAjIo= Received: by 10.49.66.9 with SMTP id t9mr907070nfk; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 07:30:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.49.56.15 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 07:30:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <8d99d3010603090730p311aa342n3b9e46841db45ba6@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 09:30:26 -0600 From: "David Nesting" To: KlausRusch@atmedia.net Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <44103875.4080900@atmedia.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHNQB-00067f-5a for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 10:51:25 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k29FXdlb011837; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 08:33:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k29FXd9p011836; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 08:33:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.206]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k29FXbsf011827 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 08:33:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from xmlhacker@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id l8so480807nzf for ; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 07:33:37 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=F+nkCo0QpgvwA0+f5Gv5+8gNizLA1ypIXWxSQ8eJsG6ryTkFj8qpyESDs0Ue65qWVpHrafpddJ0ps76VsLVi7aeXDr6mtgBDKQ+t5+B/4ledTO2LVvEJyyIcHHSd58wdxH4MP0tMXpiW3eEBSulAgaT0hy439iv+WMKYOwoxejc= Received: by 10.65.230.17 with SMTP id h17mr1120552qbr; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 07:33:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.183.15 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 07:33:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 08:33:37 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "David Nesting" Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2915_16668568.1141918417143" References: <200603081910.k28JAIIv059630@balder-227.proper.com> <8d99d3010603081257k2dc98feclf4544f2dfc19f597@mail.gmail.com> <8d99d3010603090558x632953ddj49550c9b91140f7d@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 025f8c5000216988bfe31585db759250 ------=_Part_2915_16668568.1141918417143 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline RllJLi4uLiBqdXN0IGFkZGVkIGEgQnJvd3Nlci1iYXNlZCBBdG9tICYgUlNTIHNlY3Rpb24gdG8K VW5kZXJzdGFuZGluZ0F0b20uY29tICh3aGljaCBVbmRlcnN0YW5kaW5nUlNTLmNvbSBwb2ludHMg dG8gYXMgd2VsbCkgVHJhYwppbnN0YW5jZS4gIFBsZWFzZSwgYnkgYWxsIG1lYW5zLCBpZiB5b3Ug 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PC9zcGFuPjwvZGl2PjwvYmxvY2txdW90ZT48L2Rpdj48YnI+PGJyIGNsZWFyPSJhbGwiPjxicj4t LSA8YnI+Jmx0O006RC8mZ3Q7PGJyPjxicj5NLiBEYXZpZCBQZXRlcnNvbjxicj48YSBocmVmPSJo dHRwOi8vd3d3LnhzbHRibG9nLmNvbS8iPmh0dHA6Ly93d3cueHNsdGJsb2cuY29tLzwvYT4K ------=_Part_2915_16668568.1141918417143-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 09 11:08:19 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHNgZ-00013f-Gp for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 11:08:19 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHNgX-0006l1-Fq for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 11:08:19 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k29Fs1Kb013037; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 08:54:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k29Fs135013036; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 08:54:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail4.exchange.microsoft.com (mail4.exchange.microsoft.com [131.107.1.99]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k29FrxsO013030 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 08:54:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from seanlynd@exchange.microsoft.com) Received: from df-gwy-06.exchange.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.63.150]) by mail4.exchange.microsoft.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 9 Mar 2006 07:53:54 -0800 Received: from df-hub-02.exchange.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.52) by df-gwy-06.exchange.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.63.150) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.0.516.3; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 07:53:53 -0800 Received: from df-bhd-01.exchange.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.54.216]) by df-hub-02.exchange.corp.microsoft.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 9 Mar 2006 07:53:53 -0800 From: Sean Lyndersay To: David Nesting , "KlausRusch@atmedia.net" CC: "atom-syntax@imc.org" Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 07:51:29 -0800 Subject: RE: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue Thread-Topic: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue Thread-Index: AcZDj9Tl2KLd0zGSR8KD3rExCCuusAAAUKUg Message-ID: <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA837FB03@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> References: <200603081910.k28JAIIv059630@balder-227.proper.com> <8d99d3010603081257k2dc98feclf4544f2dfc19f597@mail.gmail.com> <8d99d3010603090558x632953ddj49550c9b91140f7d@mail.gmail.com> <44103875.4080900@atmedia.net> <8d99d3010603090730p311aa342n3b9e46841db45ba6@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <8d99d3010603090730p311aa342n3b9e46841db45ba6@mail.gmail.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_11b85e5b-2990-4ec3-9d9e-8f7ac2370de8_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RulesExecuted: True X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Mar 2006 15:53:53.0598 (UTC) FILETIME=[AA787DE0:01C64391] x-microsoft-aal: 31 x-microsoft-cal: 13 x-microsoft-multilevel-authmechanism: Custom Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4de5d7f989d6c039c8b887f1940f36ab --_11b85e5b-2990-4ec3-9d9e-8f7ac2370de8_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've been meaning to respond to this in the original thread (and to David P= eterson's offline questions publicly), but got caught up in some other thin= gs. There are a few principles we used to decide how to approach this problem (= and it's not a straightforward issue with an easy decision matrix): First, while the feed itself is data (as David points out ), the entries ar= e the content from the publisher. The publisher has complete control over h= ow each item in the feed looks (using (X)HTML). Entries can, of course, be = re-mixed and shown in different contexts, losing their original feed contex= t. It is worth noting that no other aggregator maintains the publisher's look = and feel on a feed. RSS Bandit and some others allow the user to control ho= w a feed looks, and it requires custom, app-specific XSLs. If Safari has a = way to turn off its feed view, I haven't found it yet. To build on this idea, there is real value on a consistent view of feeds fo= r the user, helping the user understand what they are looking at, and the c= ontext in which they can use the data. In fact, that's part of the promise = of RSS - consistency. For example, because the feed view is part of the client, instructions expl= aining what a feed is, and why subscribing is a useful and interesting thin= g to do are presented in the user's system language, regardless of the lang= uage of the feed. If the user chooses, they can turn off the IE feed view c= ompletely (starting from the next beta update). Finally, we think that feeds+stylesheets exist as a stopgap measure to hel= p users avoid the nasty XML view in browsers that don't support feeds (yes,= this is a generalization, and some people are building web sites that are = built in a more complicated way, but in the vast majority of cases, it's tr= ue). Now that the browsers support viewing feeds natively (this will be all= major browsers, with the release of Firefox 2.0), this stop gap should be = retired, or continue to exist only for older browsers. There is a reasonable argument that this is a change in browser behaviour, = and there's mention in another email that this is counter to the IE7 CSS pr= omise of compatibility with sites. The reality is that browsers have a nightmare process of dealing with milli= ons of websites that have a near infinite set of permutations of how they= use HTML. This is a side effect of the somewhat haphazard evolution of HTM= L in the 90s. I think it would be a complete mistake to repeat that here. T= he feed is nowhere near as large as the HTML community, and the opportunity= exists to correct behaviour and do the right thing. Yes, it's a change in browser behaviour, but that should not be the only ar= gument. Since we are still at the cusp of the explosion of RSS/Atom into th= e mainstream, we should be deciding what is the right thing. I argue that the right thing for a publisher is to serve HTML when they wan= t control over the look and feel of the entire set of content, and to serve= RSS/Atom when they want their data consumed as a feed (which has always me= ant surrendering the look-and-feel to the particular client the user choose= s). To address another implied point - we are not doing this out of some evil i= ntent to screw the publisher or other clients. We have gone into this with = the explicit intent of not only providing a decent feed reading experience = in IE, but also to make sure that the entire community of aggregator and se= rvices is catered to - we have built and published extensive support for ot= her aggregators and services to hook into the feed discovery experience and= to synchronize with the Common Feed List that ships with IE. When a user s= ubscribes to a feed using IE, he's not limited to using IE to read that fee= d. Any aggregator can build support for the publicly documented APIs to rea= d and write to the Common Feed List, and any service can build support for = synchronizing that feed with their service (and in both cases, several are = doing so right now). I hope this helps make the reasoning behind IE's behaviour with feeds and s= tylesheets a little less murky. Thanks, Sean ________________________________ From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org= ] On Behalf Of David Nesting Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 7:30 AM To: KlausRusch@atmedia.net Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue On 3/9/06, Klaus Johannes Rusch > wrote: Unless the "context" is stored with the feed, the user experience will be different when a user follows a link from another page (rendered as Web page) and later loads the same link again from the bookmarks (rendered as an XML feed). If this is just an issue with the example rules, that's solvable by adaptin= g the rules to match expectations. Maybe browsers would be willing to stor= e some sort of context along with the bookmark. But really the underlying point is that browsers and/or feed readers can ch= oose to render the feed however they want. The Atom syntax does not requir= e xml-stylesheet support nor does any part of the Atom specification requir= e that feed readers be web browsers, or that feeds be rendered as web pages= . It's important to remember here that we would be in exactly in the same pos= ition if any other non-Microsoft feed reading application registered itself= as the handler for the application/xhtml+xml media type. IE and Firefox w= ould dutifully pass the file to this 3rd-party application, which probably = would not be a web browser, and the feed would be rendered in a reader-spec= ific way, with zero attention paid to xml-stylesheet. The behavior we're used to seeing is basically a fallback handler for arbit= rary XML content. It's expected to be overridden when a real application s= teps up to say that it will handle content of that type. The IE feed reade= r case is somewhat distinct, but the implications are the same. The proble= m is that IE and Firefox's default behavior is actually useful, and a desir= able alternative to applications legitimately stepping up to act as handler= s for these media types. If this is what we're trying to "fix", I think this is out of scope for thi= s mailing list. From the Mozilla/Firefox perspective, you may find these bugs interesting: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3D57342 - Add "View as Text/HT= ML/..." option for unknown mime content-type https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3D194351 - General module to s= how widespread XML formats: WML, RSS, DocBook, OpenOffice.org etc. The comments within the first bug also include discussion of overriding the= web server's media type and/or the browser's behavior in response to it to= permit content to be viewed using the browser's built-in text, HTML, or XM= L handling mechanisms. The discussion thus far seems to be just a variatio= n of this, with a little automation (context) helping to make that decision= . David --_11b85e5b-2990-4ec3-9d9e-8f7ac2370de8_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I’ve been meaning to respond to this in the original thread (and to David Peterson’s offline questions publicly), but got caught up in some other things.

 

There are a few principles we used to decide how to approach this problem (and it’s not a straightforward issue with an easy decis= ion matrix):

First, while t= he feed itself is data (as David points out ), the entries are the content f= rom the publisher. The publisher has complete control over how each item in the feed looks (using (X)HTML). Entries can, of course, be re-mixed and shown i= n different contexts, losing their original feed context.

It is worth no= ting that no other aggregator maintains the publisher’s look and feel on a= feed. RSS Bandit and some others allow the user to control how a feed look= s, and it requires custom, app-specific XSLs. If Safari has a way to turn off = its feed view, I haven’t found it yet.

To build on this idea, there is real value on a consistent v= iew of feeds for the user, helping the user understand what they are looking at= , and the context in which they can use the data. In fact, that’s part = of the promise of RSS – consistency.

 

For example, because the feed view is part of the client, in= structions explaining what a feed is, and why subscribing is a useful and interesting thing to do are presented in the user’s system language, regardless o= f the language of the feed. If the user chooses, they can turn off the IE fee= d view completely (starting from the next beta update).

Finally, we th= ink that  feeds+stylesheets exist as a stopgap measure to help users avoid the = nasty XML view in browsers that don’t support feeds (yes, this is a general= ization, and some people are building web sites that are built in a more complicated way, but in the vast majority of cases, it’s true). Now that the brow= sers support viewing feeds natively (this will be all major browsers, with the release of Firefox 2.0), this stop gap should be retired, or continue to ex= ist only for older browsers.

There is a reasonable argument that this is a change in browser behaviour, and there&#= 8217;s mention in another email that this is counter to the IE7 CSS promise of compatibility with sites.

The reality is= that browsers have a nightmare process of dealing with millions of websites &nbs= p;that have a near infinite set of permutations of  how they use HTML. This i= s a side effect of the somewhat haphazard evolution of HTML in the 90s. I think= it would be a complete mistake to repeat that here. The feed is nowhere near a= s large as the HTML community, and the opportunity exists to correct behaviou= r and do the right thing.

Yes, it’= s a change in browser behaviour, but that should not be the only argument. Sinc= e we are still at the cusp of the explosion of RSS/Atom into the mainstream, we should be deciding what is the right thing.

I argue that t= he right thing for a publisher is to serve HTML when they want control over the look= and feel of the entire set of content, and to serve RSS/Atom when they want the= ir data consumed as a feed (which has always meant surrendering the look-and-f= eel to the particular client the user chooses).

To address ano= ther implied point – we are not doing this out of some evil intent = to screw the publisher or other clients. We have gone into this with th= e explicit intent of not only providing a decent feed reading experience in I= E, but also to make sure that the entire community of aggregator and services = is catered to – we have built and published extensive support for other aggregators and services to hook into the feed discovery experience and to = synchronize with the Common Feed List that ships with IE. When a user subscribes to a f= eed using IE, he’s not limited to using IE to read that feed. Any aggrega= tor can build support for the publicly documented APIs to read and write to the= Common Feed List, and any service can build support for synchronizing that feed wi= th their service (and in both cases, several are doing so right now).  

I hope this he= lps make the reasoning behind IE’s behaviour with feeds and stylesheets a little less murky.

Thanks,

Sean

 

 

From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.o= rg [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of David Nesting Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 7:30 AM
To: KlausRusch@atmedia.net
Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue

 

On 3/9/06, Klaus Johannes = Rusch <KlausRusch@= atmedia.net > wrote:

Unless the "context" is stored with the feed= , the user experience will
be different when a user follows a link from another page (rendered as
Web page) and later loads the same link again from the bookmarks
(rendered as an XML feed).


If this is just an issue with the example rules, that's solvable by adaptin= g the rules to match expectations.  Maybe browsers would be willing to s= tore some sort of context along with the bookmark.

But really the underlying point is that browsers and/or feed readers can ch= oose to render the feed however they want.  The Atom syntax does not requir= e xml-stylesheet support nor does any part of the Atom specification require = that feed readers be web browsers, or that feeds be rendered as web pages.

It's important to remember here that we would be in exactly in the same position if any other non-Microsoft feed reading application registered its= elf as the handler for the application/xhtml+xml media type.  IE and Firef= ox would dutifully pass the file to this 3rd-party application, which probably would not be a web browser, and the feed would be rendered in a reader-spec= ific way, with zero attention paid to xml-stylesheet.

The behavior we're used to seeing is basically a fallback handler for arbit= rary XML content.  It's expected to be overridden when a real application s= teps up to say that it will handle content of that type.  The IE feed reade= r case is somewhat distinct, but the implications are the same.  The pro= blem is that IE and Firefox's default behavior is actually useful, and a desirab= le alternative to applications legitimately stepping up to act as handlers for these media types.

If this is what we're trying to "fix", I think this is out of sco= pe for this mailing list.

From the Mozilla/Firefox perspective, you may find the= se bugs interesting:

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3D57342 - Add "View as Text/HTML/..." option for unknown mime content-typ= e
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3D194351 - General module to show widespread XML formats: WML, RSS, DocBook, OpenOffice.org etc.

The comments within the first bug also include discussion of overriding the= web server's media type and/or the browser's behavior in response to it to perm= it content to be viewed using the browser's built-in text, HTML, or XML handli= ng mechanisms.  The discussion thus far seems to be just a variation of t= his, with a little automation (context) helping to make that decision.

David

--_11b85e5b-2990-4ec3-9d9e-8f7ac2370de8_-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 09 11:32:24 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHO3s-0004sb-Tq for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 11:32:24 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHO3q-0007gT-UE for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 11:32:24 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k29GAbwu013718; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 09:10:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k29GAahi013717; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 09:10:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.201]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k29GAY1m013709 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 09:10:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from xmlhacker@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id r28so472327nza for ; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 08:10:34 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=OBatckdRd7E4ehMPbuq47kb9foXC2itepekYViF8f0ArEYCnJv2TIEIlovyfcjk0F2lQeCQrJB7QpKSYqk9ETpmlkMDcFSWItHKdthzeFItb8J015rgHb+7+cTuwLcP6XFw+rakIfb9xwsZ16k7UkOVG5Y4IYJQTE0FhyObTEHk= Received: by 10.65.234.17 with SMTP id l17mr365379qbr; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 08:10:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.183.15 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 08:10:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 09:10:33 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "Sean Lyndersay" Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue Cc: "David Nesting" , "KlausRusch@atmedia.net" , "atom-syntax@imc.org" In-Reply-To: <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA837FB03@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3772_18923733.1141920633919" References: <200603081910.k28JAIIv059630@balder-227.proper.com> <8d99d3010603081257k2dc98feclf4544f2dfc19f597@mail.gmail.com> <8d99d3010603090558x632953ddj49550c9b91140f7d@mail.gmail.com> <44103875.4080900@atmedia.net> <8d99d3010603090730p311aa342n3b9e46841db45ba6@mail.gmail.com> <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA837FB03@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 89ebdf268eceaeaf784b3acb625dc20e ------=_Part_3772_18923733.1141920633919 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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ZGl2PjwvYmxvY2txdW90ZT48L2Rpdj48YnI+PGJyIGNsZWFyPSJhbGwiPjxicj4tLSA8YnI+Jmx0 O006RC8mZ3Q7PGJyPjxicj5NLiBEYXZpZCBQZXRlcnNvbjxicj48YSBocmVmPSJodHRwOi8vd3d3 LnhzbHRibG9nLmNvbS8iPmh0dHA6Ly93d3cueHNsdGJsb2cuY29tLzwvYT4K ------=_Part_213_20559426.1141925899426-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 09 14:01:06 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHQNm-0000ys-ED for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 14:01:06 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHQNi-0003yK-UG for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 14:01:06 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k29IiNho020930; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 11:44:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k29IiN4F020929; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 11:44:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k29IiMmH020921 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 11:44:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 09 Mar 2006 18:44:16 -0000 Received: from xdsl-81-173-169-252.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [81.173.169.252] by mail.gmx.net (mp001) with SMTP; 09 Mar 2006 19:44:16 +0100 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 19:44:42 +0100 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: "atom-syntax@imc.org" Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue Message-ID: <20060309184442.GM2783@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: "atom-syntax@imc.org" References: <200603081910.k28JAIIv059630@balder-227.proper.com> <8d99d3010603081257k2dc98feclf4544f2dfc19f597@mail.gmail.com> <8d99d3010603090558x632953ddj49550c9b91140f7d@mail.gmail.com> <44103875.4080900@atmedia.net> <8d99d3010603090730p311aa342n3b9e46841db45ba6@mail.gmail.com> <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA837FB03@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA837FB03@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d * Sean Lyndersay [2006-03-09 17:05]: >To build on this idea, there is real value on a consistent view >of feeds for the user, helping the user understand what they are >looking at, and the context in which they can use the data. In >fact, that's part of the promise of RSS - consistency. +1 >Finally, we think that feeds+stylesheets exist as a stopgap >measure to help users avoid the nasty XML view in browsers that >don't support feeds (yes, this is a generalization, and some >people are building web sites that are built in a more >complicated way, but in the vast majority of cases, it's true). +1 >I argue that the right thing for a publisher is to serve HTML >when they want control over the look and feel of the entire set >of content, and to serve RSS/Atom when they want their data >consumed as a feed (which has always meant surrendering the >look-and-feel to the particular client the user chooses). +1 Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 09 14:22:12 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHQiC-0008R9-SJ for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 14:22:12 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHQiB-0004ag-Fc for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 14:22:12 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k29J1uqp021679; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 12:01:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k29J1u9V021678; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 12:01:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k29J1tIP021669 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 12:01:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 09 Mar 2006 19:01:49 -0000 Received: from xdsl-81-173-169-252.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [81.173.169.252] by mail.gmx.net (mp016) with SMTP; 09 Mar 2006 20:01:49 +0100 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 20:02:15 +0100 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue Message-ID: <20060309190215.GN2783@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <200603081910.k28JAIIv059630@balder-227.proper.com> <20060308193628.GF2783@klangraum> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k29J1uqp021679 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca Hi David, * M. David Peterson [2006-03-09 10:00]: >On 3/8/06, A. Pagaltzis wrote: >> * James Yenne [2006-03-08 20:30]: >>>I would call IE7 dropping xml-stylesheet directives a data >>>lose issue. >> >> Neither desktop nor online aggregators (such as NetNewsWire >> and Bloglines) have ever paid attention to such directives. >> What is your opinion on that? > >Both of these are services, not browsers. As a service, its >understandable... Limited server resources would justify this, >as would the need to cache the data feed, and the related >transformation or css files. No, one of them (NetNewsWire) is a desktop application. Like all desktop aggregators, it throws away any styling information associated with the feed via XML means. Many of them will even filter away (some of) the styling information transmitted in the body of an entry using HTML=E2=80=99s provisions, for security reasons. >However, when the client accesses the feed directly from the >browser, the resources are no longer an issue, as your dealing >with a one-to-one relationship between user and machine, and >your also dealing with a browser that has always rendered the >XML files as specified the PI directives, as long as those files >are valid XSLT and/or CSS files in which IE supports. While you >could argue that CSS support is dodgy at best, XSLT support is >quite the opposite. This is a question of semantics: is IE7 a browser, or is it a combined browser and aggregator? If you see it as the latter (I do), it follows that it has the same freedoms as every other desktop aggregator: that is, to ignore the styling information associated with feeds at the feed level. James Yenne seems to be advocating a third option: that the behaviour should differ depending on whether the feed in question in being viewed before or after subscribing. To me, that feels like combining the worst of both worlds. Interface inconsistency that depends on a remote part of the application state seems like really bad design from the user perspective, and throws away the opportunities opened up by combining browser and aggregator in a single interface. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 09 14:22:58 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHQiw-0000oR-OV for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 14:22:58 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHQiv-0004cM-Bp for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 14:22:58 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k29J7m9A021939; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 12:07:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k29J7mon021938; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 12:07:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.199]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k29J7l6N021932 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 12:07:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so766764wri for ; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 11:07:47 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=nwCfN5zQ4xUxB1W2TmbMzMdEB1htFPKsuPCFg9eRkTFiYwMTY32WmGUR8j/ViYujfWH8uVkNQokMh0pxEVfuMP2Po2OmQAT4rRJcb8fI5wVfGlAReBl28HdO6IEDEdr76OWybYSwz9clNqr6KXtejaGiCHkLEzEB7oxmrKl4IFo= Received: by 10.54.133.14 with SMTP id g14mr1584594wrd; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 11:07:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.101? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 12sm4084760wrl.2006.03.09.11.07.46; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 11:07:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <44107D00.6090108@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 11:07:44 -0800 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "atom-syntax@imc.org" Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue References: <200603081910.k28JAIIv059630@balder-227.proper.com> <8d99d3010603081257k2dc98feclf4544f2dfc19f597@mail.gmail.com> <8d99d3010603090558x632953ddj49550c9b91140f7d@mail.gmail.com> <44103875.4080900@atmedia.net> <8d99d3010603090730p311aa342n3b9e46841db45ba6@mail.gmail.com> <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA837FB03@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> <20060309184442.GM2783@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20060309184442.GM2783@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d +1, As an alternative, Feed Readers can provide publishers with a way of specifying optionally applied styling for feeds and entries.. e.g., ... ... ... ... - James A. Pagaltzis wrote: >[snip] >> I argue that the right thing for a publisher is to serve HTML >> when they want control over the look and feel of the entire set >> of content, and to serve RSS/Atom when they want their data >> consumed as a feed (which has always meant surrendering the >> look-and-feel to the particular client the user chooses). > > +1 > > Regards, From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 09 14:41:29 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHR0r-0007Ks-Aw for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 14:41:29 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHR0p-0005Cq-Lv for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 14:41:29 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k29JT1Ub023562; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 12:29:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k29JT10O023561; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 12:29:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.195]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k29JSxoO023554 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 12:29:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from xmlhacker@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i6so698223wra for ; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 11:28:59 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=sJn0SQNWvkX+Z0cVzaiKSeMA2XgZPKuiCWijZs51nEXcOLySWWTEvmk49YVnWKWp9+fNdybDM5iq2vgmUtASxr3va4ZrBuR5LMmyPESm7x75tezaCjRSGN/0lXarlCQQ1yWP1JBU7ZcBFU+DFYaXVGxgLzH6nIEMbutHMfNqmo4= Received: by 10.64.204.20 with SMTP id b20mr1277712qbg; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 11:28:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.183.15 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 11:28:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 12:28:59 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue In-Reply-To: <20060309190215.GN2783@klangraum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2749_15608544.1141932539143" References: <200603081910.k28JAIIv059630@balder-227.proper.com> <20060308193628.GF2783@klangraum> <20060309190215.GN2783@klangraum> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 827a2a57ca7ab0837847220f447e8d56 ------=_Part_2749_15608544.1141932539143 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline SGV5IEFyaXN0b3RsZSwKClRoYW5rcyBmb3IgdGhlIHJlcGx5IQoKT24gMy85LzA2LCBBLiBQYWdh bHR6aXMgPHBhZ2FsdHppc0BnbXguZGU+IHdyb3RlOgo+Cj4KPiBObywgb25lIG9mIHRoZW0gKE5l dE5ld3NXaXJlKSBpcyBhIGRlc2t0b3AgYXBwbGljYXRpb24uIExpa2UgYWxsCj4gZGVza3RvcCBh Z2dyZWdhdG9ycywgaXQgdGhyb3dzIGF3YXkgYW55IHN0eWxpbmcgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24KPiBhc3Nv 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dGxlIFBhZ2FsdHppcyAvLyAmbHQ7PGEgaHJlZj0iaHR0cDovL3BsYXNtYXN0dXJtLm9yZy8iPmh0 dHA6Ly9wbGFzbWFzdHVybS5vcmcvPC9hPgomZ3Q7PGJyPjxicj48L2Jsb2NrcXVvdGU+PC9kaXY+ PGJyPjxiciBjbGVhcj0iYWxsIj48YnI+LS0gPGJyPiZsdDtNOkQvJmd0Ozxicj48YnI+TS4gRGF2 aWQgUGV0ZXJzb248YnI+PGEgaHJlZj0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy54c2x0YmxvZy5jb20vIj5odHRwOi8v d3d3LnhzbHRibG9nLmNvbS88L2E+IAo= ------=_Part_2749_15608544.1141932539143-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 09 14:55:47 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHREh-0007r0-Lg for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 14:55:47 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHREf-0005aq-8h for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 14:55:47 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k29Jednf024091; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 12:40:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k29JedKH024090; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 12:40:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.192.81]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k29Jec1v024079 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 12:40:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from x-antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-177-6-93.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.177.6.93]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <20060309194032m11001kv0he>; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 19:40:32 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <44107D00.6090108@gmail.com> References: <200603081910.k28JAIIv059630@balder-227.proper.com> <8d99d3010603081257k2dc98feclf4544f2dfc19f597@mail.gmail.com> <8d99d3010603090558x632953ddj49550c9b91140f7d@mail.gmail.com> <44103875.4080900@atmedia.net> <8d99d3010603090730p311aa342n3b9e46841db45ba6@mail.gmail.com> <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA837FB03@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> <20060309184442.GM2783@klangraum> <44107D00.6090108@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 12:40:31 -0700 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 On Mar 9, 2006, at 12:07 PM, James M Snell wrote: > As an alternative, Feed Readers can provide publishers with a way of > specifying optionally applied styling for feeds and entries.. e.g., > > > ... > > ... > > ... > > ... > > Given my opinion on the use of the link element, I suppose I should propose an alternative: ... or Either method permitted, like how we do atom:content. 'type="text/ css"' optional, or is it needed? Warning to those daring to try the second that some feed readers won't bother downloading the external file. Warning to publishers that if they specify styles for "body", for example, some readers may say "there's no body element in the content, so I'll ignore this rule" (so put the content in a container with an ID or class and set the style for that instead), and others may say "how dare you try to take over the styling of the body when the body element isn't allowed in the content, I'll ignore this rule", and others may just ignore all or some of it for whatever reason they wish. Can be at feed or entry level and be intended for application to its siblings and their children (those with textual content only--and of course, some clients may not apply it to all siblings and children even if they are textual). If we really want to get fancy (big if), we could add @apply-to="content", but then you get into the qnames in attributes problem... Or we could specify that it only applies to atom:content and perhaps atom:summary (and any extension element that explicitly specifies that it applies). Well, that's enough off the top of my head. Antone From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 09 15:02:59 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHRLe-0008M0-Vh for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 15:02:59 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHRLd-0005oz-Ee for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 15:02:58 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k29Jo9Md024434; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 12:50:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k29Jo92W024433; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 12:50:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpout08-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout08-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.12]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k29Jo8JI024426 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 12:50:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jamesy@softwareme.com) Message-Id: <200603091950.k29Jo8JI024426@balder-227.proper.com> Received: (qmail 1243 invoked from network); 9 Mar 2006 19:50:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (209.216.173.128) by smtpout08-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.12) with ESMTP; 09 Mar 2006 19:50:03 -0000 From: "James Yenne" To: "'A. Pagaltzis'" , Subject: RE: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 11:50:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcZDr/CByv9oReOlT5KX+a9mQP/3XwAAeWLA In-Reply-To: <20060309190215.GN2783@klangraum> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 There is no doubt publishers will want some style control over feeds... You can be sure advertisers will when they get in there. The only practice I'm advocating is that if I want my feed to be formatted in the browser as I have declared using xml-stylesheet, it should be allowed. If I don't have one, and 90% don't, then by all means, use the Microsoft IE7 stylesheet. I want to present to the user, for example, the tie dye background (not the blue to grey gradient) and I think it maybe reflects my site better, and will result in a subscribe click. -----Original Message----- From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of A. Pagaltzis Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 11:02 AM To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue Hi David, * M. David Peterson [2006-03-09 10:00]: >On 3/8/06, A. Pagaltzis wrote: >> * James Yenne [2006-03-08 20:30]: >>>I would call IE7 dropping xml-stylesheet directives a data lose >>>issue. >> >> Neither desktop nor online aggregators (such as NetNewsWire and >> Bloglines) have ever paid attention to such directives. >> What is your opinion on that? > >Both of these are services, not browsers. As a service, its >understandable... Limited server resources would justify this, as would >the need to cache the data feed, and the related transformation or css >files. No, one of them (NetNewsWire) is a desktop application. Like all desktop aggregators, it throws away any styling information associated with the feed via XML means. Many of them will even filter away (some of) the styling information transmitted in the body of an entry using HTML's provisions, for security reasons. >However, when the client accesses the feed directly from the browser, >the resources are no longer an issue, as your dealing with a one-to-one >relationship between user and machine, and your also dealing with a >browser that has always rendered the XML files as specified the PI >directives, as long as those files are valid XSLT and/or CSS files in >which IE supports. While you could argue that CSS support is dodgy at >best, XSLT support is quite the opposite. This is a question of semantics: is IE7 a browser, or is it a combined browser and aggregator? If you see it as the latter (I do), it follows that it has the same freedoms as every other desktop aggregator: that is, to ignore the styling information associated with feeds at the feed level. James Yenne seems to be advocating a third option: that the behaviour should differ depending on whether the feed in question in being viewed before or after subscribing. To me, that feels like combining the worst of both worlds. Interface inconsistency that depends on a remote part of the application state seems like really bad design from the user perspective, and throws away the opportunities opened up by combining browser and aggregator in a single interface. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 09 15:31:21 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHRn7-0007up-3t for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 15:31:21 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHRn6-0006ko-Nv for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 15:31:21 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k29K6pT6025215; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 13:06:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k29K6pVl025214; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 13:06:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpout10-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout10-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.238]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k29K6okS025207 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 13:06:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jamesy@softwareme.com) Message-Id: <200603092006.k29K6okS025207@balder-227.proper.com> Received: (qmail 13003 invoked from network); 9 Mar 2006 20:06:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (209.216.173.128) by smtpout10-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.238) with ESMTP; 09 Mar 2006 20:06:41 -0000 From: "James Yenne" To: "'A. Pagaltzis'" , , "'Sean Lyndersay'" Subject: RE: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 12:06:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcZDrTErTQ17/PfET96xOlz9hZjMhgAAUaiQ In-Reply-To: <20060309184442.GM2783@klangraum> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 >* Sean Lyndersay [2006-03-09 17:05]: >>To build on this idea, there is real value on a consistent view of >>feeds for the user, helping the user understand what they are looking >>at, and the context in which they can use the data. In fact, that's >>part of the promise of RSS - consistency. > >+1 > While I agree in principle, my concern is that as Microsoft moves forward with this reasonable tact for IE and on behalf of the web feed community, Mozilla, Safari and others will have their own solution which is different and also "consistent". The published SSE extensions are a good step in making this consistency stick, but will these others use SSE or yet another solution. Why can't I publish my own stylesheet and use these Microsoft elements for collation, background, etc. This Microsoft stylesheet should be replaceable. >>Finally, we think that feeds+stylesheets exist as a stopgap measure to >>help users avoid the nasty XML view in browsers that don't support >>feeds (yes, this is a generalization, and some people are building web >>sites that are built in a more complicated way, but in the vast >>majority of cases, it's true). > >+1 > >>I argue that the right thing for a publisher is to serve HTML when they >>want control over the look and feel of the entire set of content, and >>to serve RSS/Atom when they want their data consumed as a feed (which >>has always meant surrendering the look-and-feel to the particular >>client the user chooses). > >+1 > Sure, serving XHTML is just a one off for my app, but part of my goal is to clarify this behavioral standard for the browser / feed reader / aggregator community. The publisher is thus henceforth locked into the IE browser's look and feel for the subscription & presentation page, which works fine of course. This is a browsers becoming a reader and an aggregator, and it's tricky. -James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 09 15:47:18 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHS2Y-0004Fw-Cm for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 15:47:18 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHS2X-0007AF-Ji for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 15:47:18 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k29KSG8M026019; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 13:28:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k29KSG8O026018; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 13:28:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.204]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k29KSEmm026011 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 13:28:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from xmlhacker@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 14so563453nzn for ; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 12:28:14 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Ll/UAP7QMdxyWv/Fk88UpIICNn3p0TEGgHkqt6riV54IRTebSB0D/WAr8i5bW8xhPT54JXcg81xAfwE5rcHkZuPuW8evi5zy5ubo9SyIBSVBDy3faEaemNvkTnvWZYAcmCl8NI/eXegX9dNSYxQwwwAlHPOO/vBh3TQPrsCN9LE= Received: by 10.64.150.19 with SMTP id x19mr1318497qbd; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 12:28:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.183.15 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 12:28:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 13:28:14 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "James Yenne" Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue Cc: "A. 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David Peterson" To: "James Yenne" Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue Cc: "A. Pagaltzis" , atom-syntax@imc.org, "Sean Lyndersay" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4498_9220092.1141936821659" References: <20060309184442.GM2783@klangraum> <200603092006.k29K6okS025207@balder-227.proper.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a3f7094ccc62748c06b21fcf44c073ee ------=_Part_4498_9220092.1141936821659 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline Tk9URS1UTy1TRUxGOiBIbW1tLi4uLiBJJ2QgYmV0IHRoZSBYTUwtTVZQJ3Mgd291bGQgYmUgYSBn b29kIGludGVyZmFjZSBpbnRvCnRoZSBNaWNyb3NvZnQgY2hhbm5lbC4gIFRoZXkgZG8gaGF2ZSB0 aGUgbGVnYWwgY2xlYXJhbmNlIGZvciB2YXJpb3VzCmFjdGl2aXRpZXMsIGFuZCB0aGV5IGhhdmUg YWxyZWFkeSByZWxpY2Vuc2VkIHRoZSBYTUwtTVZQIGxpYnJhcnkgYmFjayB0byBNUwpmb3IgcmVk aXN0cmlidXRpb24uLi4gSSdkIGJldCB0aGV5IHdvdWxkIGJlIGEgcHJldHR5IGxvZ2ljYWwgZ3Jv 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atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 18:04:40 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHUBS-0004u2-RS for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 18:04:40 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k29Mi66g033225; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 15:44:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k29Mi6Zu033224; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 15:44:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k29Mi4O2033204 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 15:44:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 09 Mar 2006 22:43:59 -0000 Received: from xdsl-81-173-169-252.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [81.173.169.252] by mail.gmx.net (mp029) with SMTP; 09 Mar 2006 23:43:59 +0100 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 23:44:26 +0100 From: "'A. Pagaltzis'" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue Message-ID: <20060309224426.GT2783@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <20060309190215.GN2783@klangraum> <20060309195006.7752gmx1@mx067.gmx.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060309195006.7752gmx1@mx067.gmx.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k29Mi66g033225 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 * James Yenne [2006-03-09 20:55]: >The only practice I'm advocating is that if I want my feed to be >formatted in the browser as I have declared using >xml-stylesheet, it should be allowed. That means your feed will have to be missing UI features that other feeds have. I hope I don=E2=80=99t need to explain why that is a bad idea for a user interface. Maybe there could be a button =E2=80=9CView with publisher look=E2=80=9D = when the feed provides styling information, but it should definitely not be the default. >If I don't have one, and 90% don't, then by all means, use the >Microsoft IE7 stylesheet. I want to present to the user, for >example, the tie dye background (not the blue to grey gradient) >and I think it maybe reflects my site better, and will result in >a subscribe click. =20 Or they will be irritated because it=E2=80=99s different and the usual sorting controls and navigation are missing? Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 09 18:04:52 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHUBg-0000rv-RG for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 18:04:52 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHUBf-0004uw-F0 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 18:04:52 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k29Mewrn033149; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 15:40:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k29Mewro033148; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 15:40:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k29Meu3m033139 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 15:40:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 09 Mar 2006 22:40:50 -0000 Received: from xdsl-81-173-169-252.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [81.173.169.252] by mail.gmx.net (mp037) with SMTP; 09 Mar 2006 23:40:50 +0100 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 23:41:17 +0100 From: "'A. Pagaltzis'" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue Message-ID: <20060309224117.GS2783@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <20060309184442.GM2783@klangraum> <20060309200644.13852gmx1@mx020.gmx.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060309200644.13852gmx1@mx020.gmx.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 * James Yenne [2006-03-09 21:10]: >>* Sean Lyndersay [2006-03-09 17:05]: >>>I argue that the right thing for a publisher is to serve HTML >>>when they want control over the look and feel of the entire >>>set of content, and to serve RSS/Atom when they want their >>>data consumed as a feed (which has always meant surrendering >>>the look-and-feel to the particular client the user chooses). >> >>+1 >> > >Sure, serving XHTML is just a one off for my app, but part of my >goal is to clarify this behavioral standard for the browser / >feed reader / aggregator community. I think that feeds should behave like feeds. Try to differentiate on the content, not the looks, if you want more readers. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 09 19:04:04 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHV6y-0004TV-D8 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 19:04:04 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHV6w-0007zj-LS for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 19:04:04 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k29NjL7C035966; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 16:45:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k29NjLsN035965; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 16:45:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtpout10-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout10-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.238]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k29NjKmb035959 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 16:45:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jamesy@softwareme.com) Message-Id: <200603092345.k29NjKmb035959@balder-227.proper.com> Received: (qmail 2502 invoked from network); 9 Mar 2006 23:45:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (209.216.173.128) by smtpout10-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.238) with ESMTP; 09 Mar 2006 23:45:14 -0000 From: "James Yenne" To: "'A. Pagaltzis'" , Subject: RE: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 15:45:12 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcZDzvBED5Rm0lbBT7mzusF9tGQz6gAAjwrA In-Reply-To: <20060309224426.GT2783@klangraum> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Yes, I guess I don't know what important UI feature my feeds would be missing if they didn't use the IE7 stylesheet? (feel the shame for asking :) I have my own feed entry navigation, thank you kindly, and yes, I (will) use the SSE extensions. The educational box describing what feeds are with the big subscribe button optional, thanks. All I care about is the subscribe button, I'll do the rest. Why shouldn't the publisher stylesheet be the default if the publisher wants it to be in the browser/aggregator app? IE7 is dsiplaying the Atom content tags afterall. This is not just the My Yahoo box with feed links (title and link href) to pages contain news stories, but IE7 is rendering content tags in the browser. I want my psychedelic tie dye background when displaying my content tags! -----Original Message----- From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of 'A. Pagaltzis' Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 2:44 PM To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue * James Yenne [2006-03-09 20:55]: >The only practice I'm advocating is that if I want my feed to be >formatted in the browser as I have declared using xml-stylesheet, it >should be allowed. That means your feed will have to be missing UI features that other feeds have. I hope I don't need to explain why that is a bad idea for a user interface. Maybe there could be a button "View with publisher look" when the feed provides styling information, but it should definitely not be the default. >If I don't have one, and 90% don't, then by all means, use the >Microsoft IE7 stylesheet. I want to present to the user, for example, >the tie dye background (not the blue to grey gradient) and I think it >maybe reflects my site better, and will result in a subscribe click. Or they will be irritated because it's different and the usual sorting controls and navigation are missing? Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 09 19:47:49 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHVnJ-0002HB-Do for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 19:47:49 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHVnH-00010x-M7 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 19:47:49 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2A0Z68S037895; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 17:35:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2A0Z6fL037894; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 17:35:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pproxy.gmail.com (pproxy.gmail.com [64.233.166.183]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2A0Z4Wn037888 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 17:35:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from xmlhacker@gmail.com) Received: by pproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id n25so241343pyg for ; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 16:35:04 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=nQGzRFUQXcVO/G2h5ffBWWNIGFIu7/2EnWs1Isl4XvQsT5G9q6h6uvCvG+3BYkiblcmsbA+PN1dHE/un/3AbMvsLEWzstpWfvIIB3M5+LFKAtR34RlaBd8JUstU9A+U6e7tMjflvruBFPnsTICy8B71qC/bZHOlWGCChXIbdG/0= Received: by 10.65.218.4 with SMTP id v4mr159075qbq; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 16:35:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.183.15 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 16:35:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 17:35:04 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "James Yenne" Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue Cc: "A. 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aHJlZj0iaHR0cDovL3BsYXNtYXN0dXJtLm9yZy8iPmh0dHA6Ly9wbGFzbWFzdHVybS5vcmcvCjwv YT4mZ3Q7PGJyPjxicj48YnI+PC9ibG9ja3F1b3RlPjwvZGl2Pjxicj48YnIgY2xlYXI9ImFsbCI+ PGJyPi0tIDxicj4mbHQ7TTpELyZndDs8YnI+PGJyPk0uIERhdmlkIFBldGVyc29uPGJyPjxhIGhy ZWY9Imh0dHA6Ly93d3cueHNsdGJsb2cuY29tLyI+aHR0cDovL3d3dy54c2x0YmxvZy5jb20vPC9h PiAK ------=_Part_7915_26857936.1141950904128-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 09 20:12:38 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHWBK-0005pp-S7 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 20:12:38 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHWBJ-0001ls-Bp for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 20:12:38 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2A126Sm038854; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 18:02:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2A126Um038853; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 18:02:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2A125nQ038846 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 18:02:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from fe-amer-04.sun.com ([192.18.108.178]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k2A123Qj002815 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 18:02:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0IVV00601ZN7SQ00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 18:02:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.39] ([216.113.201.107]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0IVW005YP07ENIJ0@mail-amer.sun.com>; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 18:02:03 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 17:02:05 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue In-reply-to: <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA837FB03@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> To: Sean Lyndersay Cc: David Nesting , "KlausRusch@atmedia.net" , "atom-syntax@imc.org" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=WINDOWS-1252 References: <200603081910.k28JAIIv059630@balder-227.proper.com> <8d99d3010603081257k2dc98feclf4544f2dfc19f597@mail.gmail.com> <8d99d3010603090558x632953ddj49550c9b91140f7d@mail.gmail.com> <44103875.4080900@atmedia.net> <8d99d3010603090730p311aa342n3b9e46841db45ba6@mail.gmail.com> <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA837FB03@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id k2A125nQ038848 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2A126Sm038854 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 On Mar 9, 2006, at 7:51 AM, Sean Lyndersay wrote: > I hope this helps make the reasoning behind IE=92s behaviour with =20 > feeds and stylesheets a little less murky. I don't really have an opinion as to whether this is the ideal =20 behavior. But there is no doubt whatsoever that that Sean's software =20 is entirely within its rights. It is almost never possible nor =20 desirable for the transmitter of a general-purpose data format like =20 most of those based on XML to try to impose behavior on the =20 recipient. In the big picture, this is one of the big advantages of =20 open data formats. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 09 20:33:20 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHWVM-000478-Of for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 20:33:20 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHWVK-0002UN-Tl for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2006 20:33:20 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2A1Edok039410; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 18:14:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2A1Edgb039409; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 18:14:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail4.exchange.microsoft.com (mail4.exchange.microsoft.com [131.107.1.99]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2A1Ec1l039398 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 18:14:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from seanlynd@exchange.microsoft.com) Received: from df-gwy-06.exchange.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.63.150]) by mail4.exchange.microsoft.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 9 Mar 2006 17:14:33 -0800 Received: from df-hub-01.exchange.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.69.171) by df-gwy-06.exchange.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.63.150) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.0.516.4; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 17:14:32 -0800 Received: from df-bhd-01.exchange.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.54.216]) by df-hub-01.exchange.corp.microsoft.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 9 Mar 2006 17:14:32 -0800 Received: from df-beagle-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.69.136) by df-bhd-01.exchange.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.54.216) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.0.516.4; Thu, 9 Mar 2006 17:14:31 -0800 From: Sean Lyndersay To: "M. David Peterson" , James Yenne CC: "A. Pagaltzis" , "atom-syntax@imc.org" Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 17:12:03 -0800 Subject: RE: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue Thread-Topic: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue Thread-Index: AcZDt/7fx2NeWES/TcC9NV1meGkRXAAJrswQ Message-ID: <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA837FC52@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> References: <20060309184442.GM2783@klangraum> <200603092006.k29K6okS025207@balder-227.proper.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_d4077118-2e20-453f-beae-262a23f8ebea_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RulesExecuted: True X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Mar 2006 01:14:32.0104 (UTC) FILETIME=[FC952A80:01C643DF] x-microsoft-aal: 31 x-microsoft-cal: 13 x-microsoft-multilevel-authmechanism: Custom Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 680445c3afe8c9e96925f2dfef141924 --_d4077118-2e20-453f-beae-262a23f8ebea_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is off-topic, but I'll answer quickly. If someone wants to go into thi= s in more detail, contact me offlist. Given that we've re-done the look-and-feel of the built-in stylesheet about= 3 times since Beta 1 (it's changed again in the next beta release), it obv= ious that people have lots of opinions about what looks right for them. So, in some future release (not IE7) we will definitely add the ability for= the user to customize the look-and-feel of feeds in IE. As for the API, the documentation for the RSS API is here: http://msdn.micr= osoft.com/library/en-us/feedsapi/rss/overviews/msfeeds_ovw.asp There's an sample app here: http://blogs.msdn.com/rssteam/archive/2006/02/2= 8/540319.aspx Thanks, Sean ________________________________ From: M. David Peterson [mailto:xmlhacker@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 12:28 PM To: James Yenne Cc: A. Pagaltzis; atom-syntax@imc.org; Sean Lyndersay Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue * Why can't I publish my own stylesheet and use these Microsoft elements for collation, background, etc. This Microsoft stylesheet should be replaceable. * I would say this is a quite valid question. Is this capability planned and has simply not been implmented at this stage= ? I realize the look and feel of the browser itself will be handled via th= e standard Windows Themes interface when this, in fact, is changed by the u= ser. Will this stretegy be the primary strategy moving forward? Of course, the ultimate question James has posed is most particular to the = web feed itself. It's simple enough to go in and play with the DOM via the= various GreaseMonkey clones for IE, so obviously where theres a will, the = way has already been paved. But this is obviously not an IE strategy, and = instead a vendor hack. Of course, it seems to me that the piece that is missing has nothing to do = with all of this... the piece that is missing is maybe our own realization = that there is an RSS API that, from what I understand (lloks like a new ite= m will be added to my study list for the week :), allows the ability to dev= elop a completely different rendering engine all together that ties into th= e RSS backbone such that no matter what interface is use, IE-based, XAML-ba= sed, WinForms-based, etc.... each can stay consistent with the same set of = data. Thats actually pretty cool when you think about it. Would be cooler if it = had a more snazzy name to the backend system... something like "AtomicRSS" = but then again, theres nothing stopping me or anyone else from building jus= t such an interface that could act as the Atom-enhanced version of the of t= he RSS backbone... I sure do love the idea of extensions, I tell ya ;) :D On 3/9/06, James Yenne = > wrote: >* Sean Lyndersay > [2006-03-09 17:05]: >>To build on this idea, there is real value on a consistent view of >>feeds for the user, helping the user understand what they are looking >>at, and the context in which they can use the data. In fact, that's >>part of the promise of RSS - consistency. > >+1 > While I agree in principle, my concern is that as Microsoft moves forward with this reasonable tact for IE and on behalf of the web feed community, Mozilla, Safari and others will have their own solution which is different and also "consistent". The published SSE extensions are a good step in making this consistency stick, but will these others use SSE or yet another solution. Why can't I publish my own stylesheet and use these Microsoft elements for collation, background, etc. This Microsoft stylesheet should be replaceable. >>Finally, we think that feeds+stylesheets exist as a stopgap measure to >>help users avoid the nasty XML view in browsers that don't support >>feeds (yes, this is a generalization, and some people are building web >>sites that are built in a more complicated way, but in the vast >>majority of cases, it's true). > >+1 > >>I argue that the right thing for a publisher is to serve HTML when they >>want control over the look and feel of the entire set of content, and >>to serve RSS/Atom when they want their data consumed as a feed (which >>has always meant surrendering the look-and-feel to the particular >>client the user chooses). > >+1 > Sure, serving XHTML is just a one off for my app, but part of my goal is to clarify this behavioral standard for the browser / feed reader / aggregator community. The publisher is thus henceforth locked into the IE browser's look and feel for the subscription & presentation page, which works fine of course. This is a browsers becoming a reader and an aggregator, and it's tricky. -James -- M. David Peterson http://www.xsltblog.com/ --_d4077118-2e20-453f-beae-262a23f8ebea_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This is off-topic, but I’ll answer quickly. If someone wants to go into this in more detail, contact me offlist.=

 

Given that we’ve re-done the look-and-feel of the buil= t-in stylesheet about 3 times since Beta 1 (it’s changed again in the next beta release), it obvious that people have lots of opinions about what look= s right for them.

 

So, in some future release (not IE7) we will definitely add = the ability for the user to customize the look-and-feel of feeds in IE.

 

As for the API, the documentation for the RSS API is here: <= a href=3D"http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/feedsapi/rss/overviews/msfe= eds_ovw.asp">http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/feedsapi/rss/overviews= /msfeeds_ovw.asp

There’s an sample app here: http:= //blogs.msdn.com/rssteam/archive/2006/02/28/540319.aspx

 

Thanks,

Sean

 

From: M. David Peterson [mailto:xmlhacker@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 12:28 PM
To: James Yenne
Cc: A. Pagaltzis; atom-syntax@imc.org; Sean Lyndersay
Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue

 

* Why can't I publish my own stylesheet and use these Microsoft
elements for collation, background, etc.  This Microsoft styleshe= et should
be replaceable. *

 

I would say this is a quite valid question.=

 

Is this capability planned and has simply not been implmented at this stage?  I realize the look and feel of the browser itself will be handled via the standard Windows Themes interface when this,= in fact, is changed by the user.  Will this stretegy be the primary strat= egy moving forward?

 

Of course, the ultimate question James has posed is mo= st particular to the web feed itself.  It's simple enough to go in and pl= ay with the DOM via the various GreaseMonkey clones for IE, so obviously where theres a will, the way has already been paved.  But this is obviously = not an IE strategy, and instead a vendor hack.

 

Of course, it seems to me that the piece that is missi= ng has nothing to do with all of this... the piece that is missing is maybe our ow= n realization that there is an RSS API that, from what I understand (lloks like a new ite= m will be added to my study list for the week :), allows the ability to devel= op a completely different rendering engine all together that ties into the RSS backbone such that no matter what interface is use, IE-based, XAML-based, WinForms-based, etc.... each can stay consistent with the same set of data.=

 

Thats actually pretty cool when you think about it.&nb= sp; Would be cooler if it had a more snazzy name to the backend system... somet= hing like "AtomicRSS" but then again, theres nothing stopping me or an= yone else from building just such an interface that could act as the Atom-enhanc= ed version of the of the RSS backbone...

 

I sure do love the idea of extensions, I tell ya ;) :D=

 

On 3/9/06, James Yenne= <jamesy@softwareme.com> wrote:<= /span>




>* Sean Lyndersay <seanlynd@exchange.microsoft.com > [2006-03-09 17:05]:
>>To build on this idea, there is real value on a consistent view of<= br> >>feeds for the user, helping the user understand what they are looki= ng
>>at, and the context in which they can use the data. In fact, that's=
>>part of the promise of RSS - consistency.
>
>+1
>

While I agree in principle, my concern is that as Microsoft moves forward with this reasonable tact for IE and on behalf of the web feed community, <= br> Mozilla, Safari and others will have their own solution which is different<= br> and also "consistent".  The published SSE extensions ar= e a good step in
making this consistency stick, but will these others use SSE or yet another=
solution.  Why can't I publish my own stylesheet and use these Microsoft
elements for collation, background, etc.  This Microsoft styleshe= et should
be replaceable.

>>Finally, we think that  feeds+stylesheets exist as a stop= gap measure to
>>help users avoid the nasty XML view in browsers that don't support<= br> >>feeds (yes, this is a generalization, and some people are building = web
>>sites that are built in a more complicated way, but in the vast >>majority of cases, it's true).
>
>+1
>
>>I argue that the right thing for a publisher is to serve HTML when = they
>>want control over the look and feel of the entire set of content, a= nd
>>to serve RSS/Atom when they want their data consumed as a feed (whi= ch
>>has always meant surrendering the look-and-feel to the particular >>client the user chooses).
>
>+1
>

Sure, serving XHTML is just a one off for my app, but part of my goal is to=
clarify this behavioral standard for the browser / feed reader / aggregator=
community.

The publisher is thus henceforth locked into the IE browser's look and feel=
for the subscription & presentation page, which works fine of course.  This
is a browsers becoming a reader and an aggregator, and it's tricky.

-James




--
<M:D/>

M. David Peterson
http://www.xsltblog.com/

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David Peterson" To: "Tim Bray" Subject: Re: IE7 Feed Rendering Issue Cc: "Sean Lyndersay" , "David Nesting" , "KlausRusch@atmedia.net" , "atom-syntax@imc.org" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_9274_28622486.1141957219720" References: <200603081910.k28JAIIv059630@balder-227.proper.com> <8d99d3010603081257k2dc98feclf4544f2dfc19f597@mail.gmail.com> <8d99d3010603090558x632953ddj49550c9b91140f7d@mail.gmail.com> <44103875.4080900@atmedia.net> <8d99d3010603090730p311aa342n3b9e46841db45ba6@mail.gmail.com> <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA837FB03@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6e922792024732fb1bb6f346e63517e4 ------=_Part_9274_28622486.1141957219720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline T2YgY291cnNlIEkgd2lzaCBJIGhhZG4ndCBtYWRlIHN1Y2ggYSBkYW1uIGZvb2wgb2YgbXlzZWxm IGluIHRha2luZyBzdWNoIGEKc3Ryb25nIGFuZCAtLSBJIGd1ZXNzIGV4dGVuZGVkIHdvdWxkIGJl IGFuIGFwcHJvcHJpYXRlIHdvcmQgOikgLS0KcmVzcG9uc2UgdGhpcyBtb3JuaW5nIHdoZW4gSSBj aG9zZSB0byB3cml0ZSB0aGUgTWFzdGVyIFRoZXNpcyBJIG5ldmVyIHF1aXRlCmdvdCBhcm91bmQg dG8gZHVyaW5nIG15IGNvbGxlZ2UgeWVhcnMgcmVnYXJkaW5nIHRoZSByZWFzb25zICJ0aGV5IiB3 ZXJlCndyb25nIGFuZCAiSSIgd2FzIHJpZ2h0LiAgV2F5IHRvIGZhciBpbnRvIHRoZSBkcmFtYSBz aWRlIG9mIHRoaW5ncyB0aGF0IEkKbXlzZWxmIGNvbXBsYWluIGFib3V0IGluIG90aGVyIGdyb3Vw cy4KCk9idmlvdXNseSB0aGlzIHdhcyBteSBvd24gcGVyc29uYWwgbWlzdGFrZSwgYW5kIEkgdGhp bmsgU2VhbiBoYXMgYmVlbiBtb3JlCnRoYW4gZ3JhY2lvdXMgaW4gbG9va2luZyBwYXN0IHRoZSBt dWNrIGFuZCBwcm92aWRpbmcgcmVhbCBhbnN3ZXJzIHRvIHRoZQpxdWVzdGlvbnMgcHJlc2VudGVk LgoKTXkgYXBvbG9naWVzIFRpbSwgYW5kIHRvIHRoZSByZXN0IG9mIHlvdSBmb3IgbXkgc2lsbGlu ZXNzLgoKU2VhbiwgdGhhbmtzIGZvciB0aGUgbGlua3MhICBRdWVzdGlvbjogIEkgdGhpbmsgZGV2 ZWxvcGluZyB2YXJpb3VzIHNhbXBsZXMKYW5kIHN1Y2ggd291bGQgb2J2aW91c2x5IGhlbHAgaW4g dW5kZXJzdGFuZGluZyBob3cgdGhlIFJTUyBBUEkgd29ya3MgaW4KZ2VuZXJhbC4gIFRoZXJlIGFy ZSBvYnZpb3VzIHJlYXNvbnMgd2h5IGl0IHdvdWxkIGJlIGltcG9zc2libGUgZm9yIHlvdSB0bwpw cm92aWRlIHByaXZpbGVnZWQgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gdG8gYW55b25lIHdobyBpcyBub3QgY292ZXJl ZCB1bmRlciBhbgpleGlzdGluZyBub24tZGlzY2xvc3VyZSBhbmQvb3Igb3RoZXIgbGVnYWwgYWdy ZWVtZW50LiAgV2l0aCB0aGlzIGluIG1pbmQsCndvdWxkIHlvdSByZWNvbW1lbmQgdGhhdCB0aGUg WE1MLU1WUCBncm91cCB3b3VsZCBiZSBhbiBhcHByb3ByaWF0ZSBjb250YWN0CnBvaW50IGluIHdo aWNoIGFueSBpZGVhcyBmb3IgZXh0ZW5kZWQgQVBJJ3MgY291bGQgYmUgcHJvcGVybHkgZmlsdGVy ZWQKdGhyb3VnaCwgYW5kIGFzIHN1Y2ggZ2FpbiBhIHByb3BlciAoYW5kIGxlZ2FsKSB1bmRlcnN0 YW5kaW5nIG9mIHdoZXJlIHRoZQpuZWVkcyBmb3Igc3VjaCBBUEkncyB3aWxsIGV4aXN0IGFuZCB3 aGVyZSB0aGV5IHdpbGwgbm90PwoKVGhhbmtzIGluIGFkdmFuY2UgZm9yIHlvdXIgaGVscCB3aXRo IGFsbCBvZiB0aGlzLCBhbmQgZm9yIHB1dHRpbmcgdXAgd2l0aCBteQptaXNndWlkZWQgbW9ja2Vy eSBvZiB0aGUgcHVycG9zZSBvZiB0aGlzIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdC4gIE15IGhlYXJ0IHdhcyBpbiB0 aGUKcmlnaHQgcGxhY2UuICBNeSBtb3V0aCBvYnZpb3VzbHkgd2FzIG5vdC4KCk9uIDMvOS8wNiwg VGltIEJyYXkgPFRpbS5CcmF5QHN1bi5jb20+IHdyb3RlOgo+Cj4KPiBPbiBNYXIgOSwgMjAwNiwg YXQgNzo1MSBBTSwgU2VhbiBMeW5kZXJzYXkgd3JvdGU6Cj4KPiA+IEkgaG9wZSB0aGlzIGhlbHBz IG1ha2UgdGhlIHJlYXNvbmluZyBiZWhpbmQgSUUncyBiZWhhdmlvdXIgd2l0aAo+ID4gZmVlZHMg YW5kIHN0eWxlc2hlZXRzIGEgbGl0dGxlIGxlc3MgbXVya3kuCj4gSSBkb24ndCByZWFsbHkgaGF2 ZSBhbiBvcGluaW9uIGFzIHRvIHdoZXRoZXIgdGhpcyBpcyB0aGUgaWRlYWwKPiBiZWhhdmlvci4g IEJ1dCB0aGVyZSBpcyBubyBkb3VidCB3aGF0c29ldmVyIHRoYXQgdGhhdCBTZWFuJ3Mgc29mdHdh cmUKPiBpcyBlbnRpcmVseSB3aXRoaW4gaXRzIHJpZ2h0cy4gIEl0IGlzIGFsbW9zdCBuZXZlciBw b3NzaWJsZSBub3IKPiBkZXNpcmFibGUgZm9yIHRoZSB0cmFuc21pdHRlciBvZiBhIGdlbmVyYWwt cHVycG9zZSBkYXRhIGZvcm1hdCBsaWtlCj4gbW9zdCBvZiB0aG9zZSBiYXNlZCBvbiBYTUwgdG8g dHJ5IHRvIGltcG9zZSBiZWhhdmlvciBvbiB0aGUKPiByZWNpcGllbnQuICBJbiB0aGUgYmlnIHBp Y3R1cmUsIHRoaXMgaXMgb25lIG9mIHRoZSBiaWcgYWR2YW50YWdlcyBvZgo+IG9wZW4gZGF0YSBm b3JtYXRzLgo+Cj4gLVRpbQo+Cj4KPgoKCi0tCjxNOkQvPgoKTS4gRGF2aWQgUGV0ZXJzb24KaHR0 cDovL3d3dy54c2x0YmxvZy5jb20vCg== ------=_Part_9274_28622486.1141957219720 Content-Type: text/html; 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Fri, 10 Mar 2006 11:33:43 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHkYf-0004Id-G4 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 11:33:42 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2AGJpbq071111; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 09:19:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2AGJppP071110; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 09:19:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2AGJoq1071103 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 09:19:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 93549 invoked by uid 17064); 10 Mar 2006 16:19:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [IPv6:::1]) ([192.220.66.168]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 10 Mar 2006 16:19:49 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <3A0B5559-AC50-425D-8AF4-E821F0452C4A@bblfish.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: Atom Syntax , atom-owl@googlegroups.com From: Henry Story Subject: further refinements to the APP model of Collections Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 17:19:42 +0100 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3002fc2e661cd7f114cb6bae92fe88f1 My first N3 representation of the example Service document, with 3 classes :Service, :Workspace, and :Collection <> a :Service; :workspace [ a :Workspace; :title "Main Site"@en; :primaryCollection [ a :Collection; :title "entries"@en; :href ; :member-type :entry ]; :primaryCollection [ a :Collection; :title "photos"@en; :href :member-type :media ] ]; :workspace [ a :Workspace; :title "Side Bar Blog"@en; :primaryCollection [ a :Collection; :title "Remaindered Links"@en; :href ; :member-type :entry ] ] . We can think of a Collection as a Feed. Perhaps a subclass of feeds document resources at which one can also post? Perhaps we can even specify this by creating two classes :EntryCollection and :MediaCollection which we can define as follows :Collection rdfs:subClassOf atom:Feed; rdfs:label "Atom Application Collection"; rdfs:comment "An resource to which one can POST resources, and which presents itself as an atom feed"; owl:unionOf ( :EntryCollection :MediaCollection ). :EntryCollection rdfs:subClassOf :Collection; rdfs:label "Entry Collection class"; rdfs:comment "One should only POST atom entries to entry collections" . :MediaCollection rdfs:subClassOf :Collection; rdfs:label "Media Collection class"; rdfs:comment "Content posted to this collection will create an entry and be the content of the created entry"; owl:disjointWith :EntryCollection . Let us keep it simple and ignore the primary and secondary collection distinction. Our example above could then be better written as <> a :Service; :workspace [ a :Workspace; :title "Main Site"@en; :collection [ = ; a :EntryCollection; :title "entries"@en ]; :collection [ = ; a :MediaCollection; :title "photos"@en ] ]; :workspace [ a :Workspace; :title "Side Bar Blog"@en; :collection [ = ; a :EntryCollection; :title "Remaindered Links"@en; ] ] . Because collections are subclasses of Feeds, we can also add the other feed properties, such as id, author, updated, etc, to them if we want. Of course no need to add entries in the Service document itself as that would be of no interest. If we represent things as above then we would have to specify that the title be the title of the feed at the href location. But that does not seem very controversial. Why not nail that down in the spec? Henry From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 10 12:54:40 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHlp2-0002Qk-Pp for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 12:54:40 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHlp1-0006jq-Dq for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 12:54:40 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2AHiTjM074465; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 10:44:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2AHiTDj074464; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 10:44:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.196]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2AHiR7S074458 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 10:44:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so702106wra for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 09:44:27 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=illfg2WkPz+mOQtcn450INdF6wCeWiLM1O16ZKsYKsJvOfNSwW5sVv8GWNPjck6SlNvniFCzQMoMHWoFS2wdPLDJhX7Y49eY6YA945TFUZlA4FaPpNnzv9IJMC+uUzhvb7+FsR9rMw1e2hjjeJb5RWgPAlrRzDIpBmztkW7oywQ= Received: by 10.64.213.10 with SMTP id l10mr787304qbg; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 09:44:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.101? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id d12sm1760411qbc.2006.03.10.09.44.22; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 09:44:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4411BAF5.4090106@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 09:44:21 -0800 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham , atom-syntax Subject: Feed paging and atom:feed/atom:id Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Are linked feeds required to have unique atom:id values? Or, are they required to have the same atom:id values? That is, for instance: tag:example.org,2005:feed1 tag:example.org,2005:feed2 Or tag:example.org,2005:feed1 tag:example.org,2005:feed1 If the feeds have the same atom:id, I would submit that they form a single logical feed. Meaning that all of the feed documents in an incremental feed (using Mark's Feed History terminology) SHOULD use the same atom:id value. This is the way I have implemented paging in our APP implementation. If the linked feeds have different atom:id values, they should represent different logical feeds. Thoughts? - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 10 13:59:53 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHmq9-0000lL-Dx for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 13:59:53 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHmq8-0000cl-2E for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 13:59:53 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2AIdYpq076473; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 11:39:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2AIdYnv076472; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 11:39:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2AIdXTQ076466 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 11:39:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 67965 invoked by uid 17064); 10 Mar 2006 18:39:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [IPv6:::1]) ([192.220.66.168]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 10 Mar 2006 18:39:32 -0000 In-Reply-To: <4411BAF5.4090106@gmail.com> References: <4411BAF5.4090106@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Mark Nottingham , atom-syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: Re: Feed paging and atom:feed/atom:id Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 19:39:25 +0100 To: James M Snell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 I think they should all have the same id. But I don't have any good arguments in favor. It just seems to make sense that way. Henry On 10 Mar 2006, at 18:44, James M Snell wrote: > > If the feeds have the same atom:id, I would submit that they form a > single logical feed. Meaning that all of the feed documents in an > incremental feed (using Mark's Feed History terminology) SHOULD use > the > same atom:id value. This is the way I have implemented paging in our > APP implementation. If the linked feeds have different atom:id > values, > they should represent different logical feeds. > > Thoughts? > > - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 10 14:28:22 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHnHi-0004ca-2n for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 14:28:22 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHnHg-0001Rz-8g for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 14:28:22 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2AJHTFW077919; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 12:17:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2AJHT4r077918; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 12:17:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.48]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2AJHSRx077910 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 12:17:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20060310191722.DIKX1118.mtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com>; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 19:17:22 +0000 Received: from cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust17.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([81.111.201.17]) by aamtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20060310191722.EJCJ20548.aamtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust17.bagu.cable.ntl.com>; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 19:17:22 +0000 Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 19:17:20 +0000 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.71.03) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1995917808.20060310191720@djpowell.net> To: James M Snell CC: Mark Nottingham , atom-syntax Subject: Re: Feed paging and atom:feed/atom:id In-Reply-To: <4411BAF5.4090106@gmail.com> References: <4411BAF5.4090106@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Friday, March 10, 2006, 5:44:21 PM, you wrote: > Are linked feeds required to have unique atom:id values? Or, are they > required to have the same atom:id values? > Thoughts? The history spec frequently uses the phrase "the feed" in the singular, this implies to me that the id's of the feeds must be the same to the satisfy atom:id semantics. -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 10 14:59:09 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHnlG-0005ge-2J for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 14:58:54 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHndS-0001mM-RG for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 14:50:52 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2AJaMQJ078767; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 12:36:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2AJaM9H078766; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 12:36:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [63.240.77.83]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2AJaLQg078759 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 12:36:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-177-6-93.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.177.6.93]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <2006031019361601300o1r6ee>; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 19:36:16 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: References: <4411BAF5.4090106@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <07AF4814-8D92-487F-91A9-C2E19A4EF869@geckotribe.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Feed paging and atom:feed/atom:id Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 12:36:14 -0700 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 On 10 Mar 2006, at 18:44, James M Snell wrote: > If the feeds have the same atom:id, I would submit that they form a > single logical feed. Meaning that all of the feed documents in an > incremental feed (using Mark's Feed History terminology) SHOULD use > the > same atom:id value. This is the way I have implemented paging in our > APP implementation. If the linked feeds have different atom:id > values, > they should represent different logical feeds. Agreed. From 4.2.6: "Put another way, an atom:id element pertains to all instantiations of a particular Atom entry or feed; revisions retain the same content in their atom:id elements." All the Atom Feed Documents representing one incremental feed (or parts of one incremental feed) are "instantiations of a particular Atom ... feed", are they not? So they should have the same value in atom:id. If they don't, then they can't be considered instantiations of the same Atom feed. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 10 15:16:19 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHo0G-0006VC-5G for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 15:14:24 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FHntU-0002D7-HL for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 15:07:26 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2AJuXva079597; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 12:56:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2AJuXjv079596; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 12:56:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.203]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2AJuWXw079589 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 12:56:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so729994wra for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 11:56:32 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=X8XBTNoN+tkjf5T6lSa5Jg5Gbmz97/pjocAKjE+8eWeL8tasH7y+fvyeZXzJngmcno3x3xa2iRHurxEgKbK9viBNjmpGxUXY0J4ZE4wsw2d9LwrZOLIMg+yV9fBhesMcwa3R4uSEQOtNvuuvcJg2eDQr31O2PLnuqiSjXiEcYw0= Received: by 10.64.213.14 with SMTP id l14mr944118qbg; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 11:56:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.101? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id f17sm368786qba.2006.03.10.11.56.31; Fri, 10 Mar 2006 11:56:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4411D9E9.3010905@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 11:56:25 -0800 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Antone Roundy CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Feed paging and atom:feed/atom:id References: <4411BAF5.4090106@gmail.com> <07AF4814-8D92-487F-91A9-C2E19A4EF869@geckotribe.com> In-Reply-To: <07AF4814-8D92-487F-91A9-C2E19A4EF869@geckotribe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Yep. Good.. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't making any baseless assumptions with this. sounds like I'm safe. - James Antone Roundy wrote: > > On 10 Mar 2006, at 18:44, James M Snell wrote: >> If the feeds have the same atom:id, I would submit that they form a >> single logical feed. Meaning that all of the feed documents in an >> incremental feed (using Mark's Feed History terminology) SHOULD use the >> same atom:id value. This is the way I have implemented paging in our >> APP implementation. If the linked feeds have different atom:id values, >> they should represent different logical feeds. > > Agreed. From 4.2.6: > > "Put another way, an atom:id element > pertains to all instantiations of a particular Atom entry or feed; > revisions retain the same content in their atom:id elements." > > All the Atom Feed Documents representing one incremental feed (or parts > of one incremental feed) are "instantiations of a particular Atom ... > feed", are they not? So they should have the same value in atom:id. If > they don't, then they can't be considered instantiations of the same > Atom feed. > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Mar 11 08:37:42 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FI4Hu-0000Zu-Rv for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Mar 2006 08:37:42 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FI4Ht-0004qo-Do for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Mar 2006 08:37:42 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2BDInhT016064; Sat, 11 Mar 2006 06:18:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2BDInkj016063; Sat, 11 Mar 2006 06:18:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bblfish.net (bblfish.net [192.220.66.168]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2BDIllW016049 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2006 06:18:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: (qmail 32858 invoked by uid 17064); 11 Mar 2006 13:18:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [IPv6:::1]) ([192.220.66.168]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.66.168 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 11 Mar 2006 13:18:46 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <40AB0AAF-48E4-4309-9965-7913B0DDB748@bblfish.net> Cc: Davis Ian , Lee Feigenbaum , Gutentag Eduardo Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henry Story Subject: formal methods: AtomOwl Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 14:18:37 +0100 To: atom-owl@googlegroups.com, atom-syntax Syntax , Atom-Protocol Protocol X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 A week ago I attended the W3C Technical Plenary Week in Cannes (France). There was an very interesting session on Formal Methods at the W3C [1]. The specs that had benefited from working with formal methods were: - XQuery - OWL and RDf - Web Services Choreography and Web Services Descriptions (using pi notation) - WSDL 2.0 (using Z notation) In some cases parts of the formalization became the authoritative work, in others they only had a guiding and clarifying role, and the english text remained the authoritative work. But in every case the feeling was that the formal backing helped work out a lot of problems that were difficult to notice in the natural language text. Now each of the formal methods languages used is in the end back by Set Theory, which RDF and OWL and other semantic web enterprises are based on. My suggestion was therefore that RDF/OWL could itself be a formal language one can use to help explicate various standards. The work being done by the AtomOwl group could then be understood to simply be a formalization of the work done by the atom syntax and APP groups, where the spec release by these groups remain the authoritative texts. The advantage of the Semantic Web languages over these other formalisms is that it is much more widely understood, is web centric, and furthermore has some very interesting direct practical applications. AtomOwl [2] could for example be directly used to help create Sparql end points for aggregators [3], as well as being used directly as a data model as BlogEd does [4]. It is in this light that I am looking to set W3C Working Group (or XG) to create a standard ontology for Atom. As a formalization of Atom it will have to be faithful to the specs released by these IETF groups, which as stated, remain authoritative. There is interest from IBM, Talis Information and Sun Microsystems, three members of the W3C to work on this. If other members would like to join we would be more than happy. We would be very interested to hear from other members of the Atom group on how we can proceed to make the resulting spec be of the highest possible quality. Ideally we would like to place the resulting document at the Atom namespace location with some (XSLT?) transform that would be the default transform from atom to RDF. We are very open on what the best way to proceed is. Yours sincerely, Henry Story Sem Web Researcher, Sun Microsystems http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/ [1] Session 7: Adventures in Formal Methods http://www.w3.org/2006/03/01-TechPlenAgenda.html [2] http://bblfish.net/work/atom-owl/2005-10-23/ [3] see http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceSparqlLink [4] https://bloged.dev.java.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Mar 11 12:43:54 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FI88A-0003m6-33 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Mar 2006 12:43:54 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FI887-0004JP-Nx for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Mar 2006 12:43:54 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2BHWPpl026379; Sat, 11 Mar 2006 10:32:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2BHWP5I026378; Sat, 11 Mar 2006 10:32:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k2BHWNNB026363 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2006 10:32:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from julian.reschke@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 11 Mar 2006 17:32:17 -0000 Received: from p508F95CD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (EHLO [192.168.178.21]) [80.143.149.205] by mail.gmx.net (mp016) with SMTP; 11 Mar 2006 18:32:17 +0100 X-Authenticated: #1915285 Message-ID: <44130956.9020809@gmx.de> Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 18:31:02 +0100 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Atom-syntax Syntax'" Subject: Re: HTML/XML version of RFC4287 References: <43F64103.7020506@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <43F64103.7020506@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Hi, in the meantime Mark N. sent me the XML version of the submitted draft (thanks!), which I have updated with the AUTH48 changes in RFC4287 (I also changed it to be self-contained). XML and HTML versions are now available from . Note that the XML version makes use of some extensions implemented only in rfc2629.xslt, thus you'll need the "clean-for-DTD.xslt" transformation to transform it to something xml2rfc will accept (see ). Best regards, Julian From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Mar 11 23:41:36 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FIIOe-0007LE-9G for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Mar 2006 23:41:36 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FIIOa-00088z-Lg for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Mar 2006 23:41:36 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2C4Hmds047591; Sat, 11 Mar 2006 21:17:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2C4Hlnd047590; Sat, 11 Mar 2006 21:17:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.203]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2C4HkBb047583 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2006 21:17:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from xmlhacker@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i27so919147wra for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2006 20:17:46 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=ghcK+Hr65sijN+1tyTsqVdyQ9cWvheyVScgyDzBiO0MeorDsu8RY/eMV3KvEXD/QwcS8g+tbSGUYbQJY0mIOeLto/UbZCs2E8wtC2SG91qx/YjYBZvIXxEscbiPtcxMB5aCurpv5t1cXCr7li2UeSWGtyG7NPO8PXjKdZK1wPls= Received: by 10.64.179.20 with SMTP id b20mr1488738qbf; Sat, 11 Mar 2006 20:17:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.210.19 with HTTP; Sat, 11 Mar 2006 20:17:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 21:17:45 -0700 From: "M. 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atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Mar 2006 18:57:46 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2ENgDCv020479; Tue, 14 Mar 2006 16:42:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2ENgDII020478; Tue, 14 Mar 2006 16:42:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.48]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2ENgBpk020470 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2006 16:42:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20060314234205.SZKT1118.mtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com>; Tue, 14 Mar 2006 23:42:05 +0000 Received: from cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust17.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([81.111.201.17]) by aamtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20060314234205.ZSOO20548.aamtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust17.bagu.cable.ntl.com>; Tue, 14 Mar 2006 23:42:05 +0000 Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 23:42:03 +0000 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.71.03) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1546562261.20060314234203@djpowell.net> To: Uche Ogbuji CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Atom syndication schema In-Reply-To: <43F215F5.5030409@fourthought.com> References: <87slqrytn9.fsf@nwalsh.com> <43F215F5.5030409@fourthought.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Not sure if this is a known bug, but I just noticed that the RelaxNG grammar doesn't accept "atomCommonAttributes" (eg xml:lang) on the "atom:name" and "atom:uri" and "atom:email" elements used within Person constructs. -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 15 00:07:35 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJOER-0007FW-H9 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 00:07:35 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJOEQ-0002sr-5y for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 00:07:35 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2F4u0OD031979; Tue, 14 Mar 2006 21:56:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2F4u0UI031978; Tue, 14 Mar 2006 21:56:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.195]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2F4twtF031972 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2006 21:55:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp) Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id k2F4tRd13741; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 13:55:27 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 05b5_eb956e96_b3df_11da_8824_0014221fa3c9; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 13:55:26 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k2F4s9fO009785; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 13:54:35 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20060315121947.078123c0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 12:21:08 +0900 To: David Powell , Uche Ogbuji From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: Atom syndication schema Cc: Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: <1546562261.20060314234203@djpowell.net> References: <87slqrytn9.fsf@nwalsh.com> <43F215F5.5030409@fourthought.com> <1546562261.20060314234203@djpowell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c At 08:42 06/03/15, David Powell wrote: > > >Not sure if this is a known bug, but I just noticed that the RelaxNG >grammar doesn't accept "atomCommonAttributes" (eg xml:lang) on the >"atom:name" and "atom:uri" and "atom:email" elements used within >Person constructs. For atom:uri and atom:email at least, not having xml:lang may be seen as a feature. While these often contain pieces from one language or another, they are not really in a language. Regards, Martin. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 15 00:37:14 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJOh8-0002ej-0x for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 00:37:14 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJOh3-0003Iv-Le for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 00:37:14 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2F5QJS9032872; Tue, 14 Mar 2006 22:26:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2F5QJgI032871; Tue, 14 Mar 2006 22:26:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.11]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k2F5QEEM032845 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2006 22:26:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.118] ([203.30.247.118] verified) by ironclad.net.au (Stalker SMTP Server 1.7) with ESMTP id S.0001848694 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 16:25:42 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 16:25:40 +1100 Subject: Re: Atom syndication schema From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20060315121947.078123c0@localhost> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id k2F5QJEM032866 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2F5QJS9032872 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 On 15/3/06 2:21 PM, "Martin Duerst" wrote: >> Not sure if this is a known bug, but I just noticed that the RelaxNG >> grammar doesn't accept "atomCommonAttributes" (eg xml:lang) on the >> "atom:name" and "atom:uri" and "atom:email" elements used within >> Person constructs. >=20 > For atom:uri and atom:email at least, not having xml:lang may > be seen as a feature. While these often contain pieces from one > language or another, they are not really in a language. Since the original discussion I've stumbled across something extra that makes xml:lang relevant for atom:name. Seems that in writing Hungarian names, the pattern is always surname followed by forename - e.g. Bart=F3k B=E9la, where B=E9la is the personal= name and Bart=F3k is the family name. While common western names (eg. Eric Scheid) would be indexed as Scheid, Eric; a comma is instead simply added between the Hungarian surname and forename, making Hungarian names indistinguishable from other Western-sty= le names. For example: Bart=F3k B=E9la is indexed as Bart=F3k, B=E9la. Icelandic names are another game altogether. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 15 00:50:13 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJOth-0008G1-UZ for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 00:50:13 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJOtg-0003RO-IX for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 00:50:13 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2F5abNa033049; Tue, 14 Mar 2006 22:36:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2F5abb3033048; Tue, 14 Mar 2006 22:36:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.204]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2F5aa8m033042 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2006 22:36:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from xmlhacker@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so40389wra for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2006 21:36:36 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=hKvoXgk4sgx0C9Vr4BggQupUMlo1f7ycvvaEuL325RwnZDETM7irhm/Q1pbBn4yQCV7NV6B6WBuaLT00GE+z+NNCUFy/JMEpQaGoUJr4QbqEMzDDiu4HmMWR3g+RXg60A7njUe/d1LlmTfbbtugs9PqkLJncrz4I76n8D3DWJ7w= Received: by 10.65.192.18 with SMTP id u18mr102820qbp; Tue, 14 Mar 2006 21:36:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.210.19 with HTTP; Tue, 14 Mar 2006 21:36:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 22:36:36 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "Martin Duerst" Subject: Re: Atom syndication schema Cc: "David Powell" , "Uche Ogbuji" , "Atom Syntax" In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20060315121947.078123c0@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Disposition: inline References: <87slqrytn9.fsf@nwalsh.com> <43F215F5.5030409@fourthought.com> <1546562261.20060314234203@djpowell.net> <6.0.0.20.2.20060315121947.078123c0@localhost> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id k2F5ab8m033043 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 For Latin-based languages, your point is well taken. For non-latin, its all about character sets. As long as your character set for any given feed is properly set, it seems to me then all the information necessary to properly decode the email and URI (in which the work continues to integrate support for non-latin based languages, such as Mandarin, etc... if I understand things correctly, full support for Mandarin Chinese-based domains in not far off (speaking in terms of DNS support and such). Actually, the only reason for writing this response was to point out the fact that we are entering a world in which China will continue to play a dominant role in both our online and offline worlds, so beginning to learn as much as possible in terms of how to properly handle URI's and email adresses encoded as mentioned seems like it would be a pretty good idea. Couldnt hurt. :) On 3/14/06, Martin Duerst wrote: > > At 08:42 06/03/15, David Powell wrote: > > > > > >Not sure if this is a known bug, but I just noticed that the RelaxNG > >grammar doesn't accept "atomCommonAttributes" (eg xml:lang) on the > >"atom:name" and "atom:uri" and "atom:email" elements used within > >Person constructs. > > For atom:uri and atom:email at least, not having xml:lang may > be seen as a feature. While these often contain pieces from one > language or another, they are not really in a language. > > Regards, Martin. > > -- M. David Peterson http://www.xsltblog.com/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 15 01:00:07 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJP3H-0003FG-Oc for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 01:00:07 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJP3H-0003nB-C7 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 01:00:07 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2F5p3AJ033345; Tue, 14 Mar 2006 22:51:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2F5p3qC033344; Tue, 14 Mar 2006 22:51:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.192]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2F5p2OO033338 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2006 22:51:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from xmlhacker@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i5so106104wra for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2006 21:51:02 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ta2IDq3cppWb9ppbPBbi1qf/Urf/HOH04t+LcHl29h44VHfBnhD+uZu8lV5PtW7xRd/3MtNZuE7T3lmTPCNbq5LRdT4pSuJwtgEACMf+xE19ZyfrCaY/cuyNbDuB2g3fgy45mGuPLZ/PDTdq8M8cc8drL4LkTYCgE6DsesEl7no= Received: by 10.65.188.18 with SMTP id q18mr49986qbp; Tue, 14 Mar 2006 21:51:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.210.19 with HTTP; Tue, 14 Mar 2006 21:51:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 22:51:01 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "Eric Scheid" Subject: Re: Atom syndication schema Cc: "Atom Syntax" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Disposition: inline References: <6.0.0.20.2.20060315121947.078123c0@localhost> X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id k2F5p2OO033339 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2F5p3AJ033345 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 Hmmm... some interesting points you've brought out. Q: Does anyone know how many of the languages that fall into a similar category, can be determined by character set alone? I realize that theres no way that every single case could be covered using the character set alone, and as such realize this does present an area of considerable thought. Unless, of course, someone already knows the answer, or better said, how does one properly handle the various situations where te character set in and of itself doesn't provide enough information. Can a parent element with an xml:lang attribute be enough? It seems that in the case of name, email and uri, the containing author element, which as long as I'm not mistaken, does allow xml:lang should be enough to make the assumption that the children elements also whould be treated as the same language specified in the value of this attribute. The only element (I think) that might be of concern is the name element, as the email and URI should be handled with the character encoding. Does any of this even sound remotely on target? On 3/14/06, Eric Scheid wrote: > > On 15/3/06 2:21 PM, "Martin Duerst" wrote: > > >> Not sure if this is a known bug, but I just noticed that the RelaxNG > >> grammar doesn't accept "atomCommonAttributes" (eg xml:lang) on the > >> "atom:name" and "atom:uri" and "atom:email" elements used within > >> Person constructs. > > > > For atom:uri and atom:email at least, not having xml:lang may > > be seen as a feature. While these often contain pieces from one > > language or another, they are not really in a language. > > Since the original discussion I've stumbled across something extra that > makes xml:lang relevant for atom:name. > > Seems that in writing Hungarian names, the pattern is always surname > followed by forename - e.g. Bart=C3=B3k B=C3=A9la, where B=C3=A9la is t= he personal name and > Bart=C3=B3k is the family name. > > While common western names (eg. Eric Scheid) would be indexed as Scheid= , > Eric; a comma is instead simply added between the Hungarian surname and > forename, making Hungarian names indistinguishable from other Western-s= tyle > names. For example: Bart=C3=B3k B=C3=A9la is indexed as Bart=C3=B3k, B=C3= =A9la. > > Icelandic names are another game altogether. > > e. > > > -- M. David Peterson http://www.xsltblog.com/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 15 01:33:59 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJPa3-00018Q-3e for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 01:33:59 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJPa2-0004xO-Im for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 01:33:58 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2F6O1Ru034518; Tue, 14 Mar 2006 23:24:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2F6O1O2034517; Tue, 14 Mar 2006 23:24:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx2.verity.com (mx2.verity.com [192.187.147.11]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2F6O0ED034509 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2006 23:24:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wunder@autonomy.com) Received: from VEX1.verity.com (verity-ex1 [192.168.4.151]) by latsop.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CC5A3DE; Tue, 14 Mar 2006 22:23:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.verity.com ([192.168.4.43]) by VEX1.verity.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 14 Mar 2006 22:24:50 -0800 Received: from localhost (spike2.verity.com [192.168.4.22]) by united.verity.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA1E04753; Tue, 14 Mar 2006 22:22:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 22:23:55 -0800 From: Walter Underwood To: Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Atom syndication schema Message-ID: <58A26C7BEC21C049AE3233DA@adsl-64-166-133-242.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.4 (Mac OS X) X-Face: 7Vqnb4fOVKsO)3JuUXKxR\M]:e"u'eG`Zue*.((7i7%P%rvZgS[j~95@C-s3i (s!e;OX`'Pngn5lq*Td}#,"5!^jm(65.";[GPtD^c(/1TtMe&wYO;_}\!}fRkxs%q#Jk 5E^BlXwR+8}qOwy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Mar 2006 06:24:50.0981 (UTC) FILETIME=[2A5D1550:01C647F9] X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id k2F6O1ED034512 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2F6O1Ru034518 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 --On March 15, 2006 4:25:40 PM +1100 Eric Scheid wrote: > Since the original discussion I've stumbled across something extra that > makes xml:lang relevant for atom:name. >=20 > Seems that in writing Hungarian names, the pattern is always surname > followed by forename - e.g. Bart=C3=B3k B=C3=A9la, where B=C3=A9la is t= he personal name and > Bart=C3=B3k is the family name. Or Margittai Neumann J=C3=A1nos vs. John von Neumann. It can be more comp= licated than first/last or last/first. I'm pretty sure that I brought this up and the WG decided to punt. Representing personal names well means starting with X.500 and asking around to see what could be improved. That is well outside the Atom chart= er. Punting was the right thing to do, but it means that atom:name is minimal. xml:lang isn't enough information to sort out given name and family name. About all you can do with atom:name is print it out. xml:lang could be useful in deciding between Chinese and Japanese variant= s of a character for names.=20 wunder -- Walter Underwood Principal Software Architect, Autonomy From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 15 03:44:51 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJRch-0001ZW-BF for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 03:44:51 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJRce-0000VZ-Vb for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 03:44:51 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2F8XqvJ038447; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 01:33:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2F8XqAP038446; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 01:33:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx2.nic.fr (mx2.nic.fr [192.134.4.11]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2F8Xpqq038439 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 01:33:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from bortzmeyer@nic.fr) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58C7E26C120; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 09:33:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 629F326C109; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 09:33:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from batilda.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DE8058ED5C; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 09:33:49 +0100 (CET) Received: by batilda.nic.fr (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4E0C716A9A4; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 09:33:49 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 09:33:49 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Walter Underwood Cc: Eric Scheid , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Atom syndication schema Message-ID: <20060315083349.GA300@nic.fr> References: <58A26C7BEC21C049AE3233DA@adsl-64-166-133-242.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <58A26C7BEC21C049AE3233DA@adsl-64-166-133-242.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 3.1 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.8-2-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mx2.nic.fr Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad On Tue, Mar 14, 2006 at 10:23:55PM -0800, Walter Underwood wrote a message of 29 lines which said: > xml:lang isn't enough information to sort out given name and family > name. Yes! In many countries, the order changed. In France, one century ago "Family-name Given-name" was common in official papers but is now deprecated. In Algeria, a former french colony, the two usages still prevail ("Matoub Lounes" or "Lounes Matoub"?) From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 15 04:11:18 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJS2I-0007Lh-31 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 04:11:18 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJS2H-0001pT-Mh for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 04:11:18 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2F91XlR039367; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 02:01:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2F91X5f039366; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 02:01:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx2.nic.fr (mx2.nic.fr [192.134.4.11]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2F91Wcm039359 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 02:01:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from bortzmeyer@nic.fr) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29E0B26C0CB; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 10:01:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1064B26C109; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 10:01:31 +0100 (CET) Received: from batilda.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D38F58ED5C; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 10:01:31 +0100 (CET) Received: by batilda.nic.fr (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 060C316A9A4; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 10:01:31 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 10:01:30 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: "M. David Peterson" Cc: Martin Duerst , David Powell , Uche Ogbuji , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Atom syndication schema Message-ID: <20060315090130.GB300@nic.fr> References: <87slqrytn9.fsf@nwalsh.com> <43F215F5.5030409@fourthought.com> <1546562261.20060314234203@djpowell.net> <6.0.0.20.2.20060315121947.078123c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 3.1 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.8-2-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mx2.nic.fr Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 On Tue, Mar 14, 2006 at 10:36:36PM -0700, M. David Peterson wrote a message of 43 lines which said: > As long as your character set for any given feed is properly set, it > seems to me then all the information necessary to properly decode > the email and URI (in which the work continues to integrate support > for non-latin based languages, such as Mandarin, etc... Just to be pedantic, URIs (RFC 3986) are in pure US-ASCII. IRIs (RFC 3987) are in Unicode and are accepted by Atom (so, Atom's URIs seem to be actually IRIs). The standard says: # Unconstrained; it's not entirely clear how IRI fit into # xsd:anyURI so let's not try to constrain it here atomUri = text > if I understand things correctly, full support for Mandarin > Chinese-based domains in not far off (speaking in terms of DNS > support and such). It is quite old, RFC 3490 (issued three years ago and implemented even before). > email adresses encoded as mentioned There is not yet any standard for Unicode email addresses (work is going on, see the very recent IETF Working Group EAI http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/eai-charter.html). From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 15 05:40:24 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJTQW-00032z-J3 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 05:40:24 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJTQV-0004H9-6H for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 05:40:24 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2FALmJM042081; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 03:21:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2FALml6042080; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 03:21:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.199]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2FALkRR042073 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 03:21:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from xmlhacker@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so74210wra for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 02:21:46 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=h+y1QdVE3zwho8pbBO6xrFvvCBwjbHBO4zI9Gew9PUC5ZxyBYhrBHAzfG0wJLOafYgdSDJ+1Wwcnn4x4s+vVcNFJI/VHRV54vAPeMYVq5Oiaq8UuO9mHqLTsTie0BM+6eLNP6LJ8ngQFkFxM9BOjC2yL/5gPX3Cbv3hlvTjVJ5E= Received: by 10.65.43.13 with SMTP id v13mr63431qbj; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 02:21:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.210.19 with HTTP; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 02:21:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 03:21:46 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "Stephane Bortzmeyer" Subject: Re: Atom syndication schema Cc: "Martin Duerst" , "David Powell" , "Uche Ogbuji" , "Atom Syntax" In-Reply-To: <20060315090130.GB300@nic.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Disposition: inline References: <87slqrytn9.fsf@nwalsh.com> <43F215F5.5030409@fourthought.com> <1546562261.20060314234203@djpowell.net> <6.0.0.20.2.20060315121947.078123c0@localhost> <20060315090130.GB300@nic.fr> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id k2FALlRR042074 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 Excellent! Thanks for the info :) I will have to go back and see what exactly the article I read was refering to, but if I remember correctly they seemed to mention that support for the top level domains, specifically .com, .net, and .cn had not been implemented using the Mandarin character set. Either way, obviously there are a lot of considerations that need to be allowed for when developing from an interanational perspective, something that should be part of the defaul process instead of the exception... of course, I say this mainly because this is really the first time I have put any real thought into this area, and obviously I need to put a lot more. Thanks again for clearing things up and providing the links! On 3/15/06, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > On Tue, Mar 14, 2006 at 10:36:36PM -0700, > M. David Peterson wrote > a message of 43 lines which said: > > > As long as your character set for any given feed is properly set, it > > seems to me then all the information necessary to properly decode > > the email and URI (in which the work continues to integrate support > > for non-latin based languages, such as Mandarin, etc... > > Just to be pedantic, URIs (RFC 3986) are in pure US-ASCII. IRIs (RFC > 3987) are in Unicode and are accepted by Atom (so, Atom's URIs seem to > be actually IRIs). The standard says: > > # Unconstrained; it's not entirely clear how IRI fit into > # xsd:anyURI so let's not try to constrain it here > atomUri = text > > > if I understand things correctly, full support for Mandarin > > Chinese-based domains in not far off (speaking in terms of DNS > > support and such). > > It is quite old, RFC 3490 (issued three years ago and implemented even > before). > > > email adresses encoded as mentioned > > There is not yet any standard for Unicode email addresses (work is > going on, see the very recent IETF Working Group EAI > http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/eai-charter.html). > -- M. David Peterson http://www.xsltblog.com/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 15 07:30:15 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJV8p-0006hg-IK for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 07:30:15 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJV8n-0007Vd-Vs for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 07:30:15 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2FCK1nb045980; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 05:20:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2FCK1Q9045979; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 05:20:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.48]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2FCJxBC045964 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 05:20:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20060315121954.DLUS29040.mtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com>; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 12:19:54 +0000 Received: from cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust17.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([81.111.201.17]) by aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20060315121954.SGQW20480.aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust17.bagu.cable.ntl.com>; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 12:19:54 +0000 Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 12:19:52 +0000 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.71.03) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <992329378.20060315121952@djpowell.net> To: Martin Duerst CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Atom syndication schema In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20060315121947.078123c0@localhost> References: <87slqrytn9.fsf@nwalsh.com> <43F215F5.5030409@fourthought.com> <1546562261.20060314234203@djpowell.net> <6.0.0.20.2.20060315121947.078123c0@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Wednesday, March 15, 2006, 3:21:08 AM, Martin Duerst wrote: > For atom:uri and atom:email at least, not having xml:lang may > be seen as a feature. The spec says that "Any element defined by this specification MAY have an xml:lang attribute". We chose to limit the effects of xml:lang, rather than the occurrence of it. Eg: atom:published is allowed xml:lang, even though it is meaningless. The spec includes a sentence about element xxx being "Language-Sensitive" when we consider the language to be relevant. The idea is, if a feed reading framework such as Microsoft's Windows/IE7 feed platform doesn't preserve xml:lang on elements that aren't "Language-Sensitive", then they are doing nothing wrong. Same for, eg: an Atom publishing server backed by a legacy CMS. > While these often contain pieces from one language or another, they > are not really in a language. I agree. Note that this is the case in Atom, because those two elements are not "Language-Sensitive". Also note, that atom:uri is an IRI-reference, so it is affected by any xml:base attributes on that element. And that atomCommonAttributes also covers extension attributes, which are also allowed anywhere. They are "undefined", which *I* think means that implementations need not feel bad about dropping them on the floor. The official meaning is, er, undefined. -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 15 07:50:16 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJVSC-0007ik-1e for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 07:50:16 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJVSA-00082j-Lz for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 07:50:16 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2FCbYB3046818; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 05:37:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2FCbYZE046817; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 05:37:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.196]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2FCbXed046811 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 05:37:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from xmlhacker@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so94000wra for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 04:37:33 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=pHH78APm7vDdENr58IrevMylEGtbYzi6uGBcJIkzpmmST0cs5Is45nDQ2buasUbIIE8L+3nyrN6pp0VD7euclPCUoIXGAeOKm/0GObjlaewjBRzLgJ4VVABlL6BzCaa0hzCOAm86ABokLKgNtXBXNf6yhy/nfvIKQfCCkOKaLYc= Received: by 10.65.43.13 with SMTP id v13mr115487qbj; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 04:37:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.210.19 with HTTP; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 04:37:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 05:37:32 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "David Powell" Subject: Re: Atom syndication schema Cc: "Martin Duerst" , "Atom Syntax" In-Reply-To: <992329378.20060315121952@djpowell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Disposition: inline References: <87slqrytn9.fsf@nwalsh.com> <43F215F5.5030409@fourthought.com> <1546562261.20060314234203@djpowell.net> <6.0.0.20.2.20060315121947.078123c0@localhost> <992329378.20060315121952@djpowell.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id k2FCbYed046812 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 > Also note, that atom:uri is an IRI-reference, so it is affected by any xml:base attributes on that element. < Until now, I had no idea this was the case... WOW!!! Amazing the things you can learn around people who know what theyre talking about. :) On 3/15/06, David Powell wrote: > > > Wednesday, March 15, 2006, 3:21:08 AM, Martin Duerst wrote: > > > For atom:uri and atom:email at least, not having xml:lang may > > be seen as a feature. > > The spec says that "Any element defined by this specification MAY have > an xml:lang attribute". We chose to limit the effects of xml:lang, > rather than the occurrence of it. Eg: atom:published is allowed > xml:lang, even though it is meaningless. The spec includes a sentence > about element xxx being "Language-Sensitive" when we consider the > language to be relevant. The idea is, if a feed reading framework such > as Microsoft's Windows/IE7 feed platform doesn't preserve xml:lang on > elements that aren't "Language-Sensitive", then they are doing nothing > wrong. Same for, eg: an Atom publishing server backed by a legacy CMS. > > > While these often contain pieces from one language or another, they > > are not really in a language. > > I agree. Note that this is the case in Atom, because those two > elements are not "Language-Sensitive". > > > Also note, that atom:uri is an IRI-reference, so it is affected by any > xml:base attributes on that element. > > And that atomCommonAttributes also covers extension attributes, which > are also allowed anywhere. They are "undefined", which *I* think means > that implementations need not feel bad about dropping them on the > floor. The official meaning is, er, undefined. > > > -- > Dave > > -- M. David Peterson http://www.xsltblog.com/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 15 08:48:29 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJWMX-0001dm-N0 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 08:48:29 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJWMW-0001PI-Bq for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 08:48:29 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2FDaP0x049620; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 06:36:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2FDaPB8049619; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 06:36:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.192]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2FDaOhC049613 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 06:36:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from t.broyer@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so114732nzf for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 05:36:24 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=rL1MKB4DPuefXMpELNgP3O8dXVnh73glJ5np7+AYfgst3Y99dplm/u+3slMuXbRLBGPJoV2UQ58+pFZ+C9gfvhJ1oZDwN9jB1CYSWWA+LPdKVVWq8fUkfVqGmRiUQT8RkEtmS66rC7WrjdUb5szAU3YxSzeQHk6/QDDhuGpjeVU= Received: by 10.36.13.15 with SMTP id 15mr144612nzm; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 05:36:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.36.178.18 with HTTP; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 05:36:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 14:36:19 +0100 From: "Thomas Broyer" To: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: Atom syndication schema In-Reply-To: <20060315090130.GB300@nic.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <87slqrytn9.fsf@nwalsh.com> <43F215F5.5030409@fourthought.com> <1546562261.20060314234203@djpowell.net> <6.0.0.20.2.20060315121947.078123c0@localhost> <20060315090130.GB300@nic.fr> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id k2FDaPhC049614 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 2006/3/15, Stephane Bortzmeyer : > Just to be pedantic, URIs (RFC 3986) are in pure US-ASCII. IRIs (RFC > 3987) are in Unicode and are accepted by Atom (so, Atom's URIs seem to > be actually IRIs). The standard says: Well, not really the "standard" actually, since the RNC is not normative... > # Unconstrained; it's not entirely clear how IRI fit into > # xsd:anyURI so let's not try to constrain it here > atomUri = text RFC 3987 says (section 1.2 Applicability): For example, XML schema [XMLSchema] has an explicit type "anyURI" that includes IRIs and IRI references. Therefore, IRIs and IRI references can be in attributes and elements of type "anyURI". So, actually, it seems that the Atom RNC could say "atomUri = xs:anyURI". ...or RFC 3987 is wrong... (I didn't check XMLSchema to try to figure it out myself) -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 15 14:50:57 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJc1J-0000Vg-Nt for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 14:50:57 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJc1I-0004sG-D9 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 14:50:57 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2FJYEi1062983; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 12:34:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2FJYEOM062982; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 12:34:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [10.20.30.249] (dsl2-63-249-108-169.cruzio.com [63.249.108.169]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2FJX6xc062943; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 12:33:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 11:32:56 -0800 To: atom-syntax@imc.org, atom-protocol@imc.org From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Rob Sayre banned from posting to the lists for 30 days Cc: Robert Sayre , Tim Bray , Scott Hollenbeck Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Because of his recent ad hominem attacks on WG members, I have temporarily suspended Rob Sayre's posting privileges for the two Atompub WG mailing list for 30 days, as specified in RFC 3934. If you have questions or comments about this action, please first take them to Tim and me offline. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 15 19:59:11 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJgpb-0001zi-LV for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 19:59:11 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJgpa-0006YO-5f for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 19:59:11 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2G0m9cL074838; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 17:48:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2G0m9uN074837; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 17:48:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k2G0m7Ng074815 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2006 17:48:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 16 Mar 2006 00:48:01 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-249-190.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.249.190] by mail.gmx.net (mp032) with SMTP; 16 Mar 2006 01:48:01 +0100 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 01:48:32 +0100 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax , Atom Protocol Subject: Fwd: [ANN] XML::Atom::Syndication v0.9 Message-ID: <20060316004832.GM13237@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax , Atom Protocol Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2G0m9cL074838 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 I=E2=80=99ve trimmed Timothy=E2=80=99s message to the part of particular = interest for this group; the full announcement can be found at http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mail/Message/perl-xml/3065090 >From: "Timothy Appnel" >Subject: [ANN] XML::Atom::Syndication v0.9 > >Lastly, if you are interested in Atom development with Perl or >looking for assistance with one of these implementations I've >opened the atomic-perl mailing list here: >atomic-perl-subscribe@yahoogroups.com or >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atomic-perl/ Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 16 11:01:14 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJuuY-0007o8-VQ for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 11:01:14 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJuuX-0006la-J4 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 11:01:14 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2GFioRX005097; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 08:44:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2GFioVA005096; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 08:44:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxsf19.cluster1.charter.net (mxsf19.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.219]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2GFinBQ005081 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 08:44:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ndw@nwalsh.com) Received: from mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net (mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.147]) by mxsf19.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k2GFiJHr028791 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 10:44:30 -0500 Received: from 68-112-233-63.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com (HELO localhost.localdomain) ([68.112.233.63]) by mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 16 Mar 2006 10:42:54 -0500 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.02,198,1139202000"; d="scan'208"; a="90907864:sNHT21050860" Received: from ndw by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FJucn-0006hl-7r; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 10:42:53 -0500 From: Norman Walsh To: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: Atom syndication schema References: <87slqrytn9.fsf@nwalsh.com> <43F215F5.5030409@fourthought.com> <1546562261.20060314234203@djpowell.net> <6.0.0.20.2.20060315121947.078123c0@localhost> <20060315090130.GB300@nic.fr> X-URL: http://nwalsh.com/ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 10:42:53 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Thomas Broyer's message of "Wed, 15 Mar 2006 14:36:19 +0100") Message-ID: <877j6uxuo2.fsf@nwalsh.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110004 (No Gnus v0.4) Emacs/21.4 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable / "Thomas Broyer" was heard to say: | RFC 3987 says (section 1.2 Applicability): | For example, XML schema [XMLSchema] has an explicit type | "anyURI" that includes IRIs and IRI references. Therefore, IRIs | and IRI references can be in attributes and elements of type | "anyURI". > | So, actually, it seems that the Atom RNC could say "atomUri =3D xs:anyURI= ". Yes, I think that's the case. Be seeing you, norm =2D-=20 Norman Walsh | Science is organized knowledge. Wisdom http://nwalsh.com/ | is organized life.--Immanuel Kant --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEGYd9OyltUcwYWjsRAhFNAJ4uMteMJed0rvDWhi4+NZU2TKWLCACeJ0Gf g1zxFZKVY7AKodYkIEGDMj0= =xJ8l -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 16 11:01:15 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJuuZ-0007pu-IB for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 11:01:15 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJuuX-0006lZ-6B for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 11:01:15 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2GFp3c6005385; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 08:51:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2GFp3Qu005384; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 08:51:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from linux.site (host81-159-216-191.range81-159.btcentralplus.com [81.159.216.191]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2GFp1iR005375 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 08:51:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from sh@defuze.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by linux.site (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5480CCD48 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 15:50:49 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 15:50:48 +0100 From: Sylvain Hellegouarch Reply-To: sh@defuze.org User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Atom Thread Feed syntax Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Hi everyone, I was reading the Atom Feed Thread draft [1] yesterday and I ran into a problem as I described in my blog [2]. To recap the 'in-reply-to' element defined in that specification takes an 'id' attribute that specifies /the universally unique identifier of the resource being responded to/. Calling such an attribute 'id' is a mistake in my opinion as it confuses with the actual ID of the element itself within the XML document it belongs to and it makes impossible for another element within the document to have the same value as an 'id'. I would rather move the content of that attribute as a text element of the 'in-reply-to' element (as does the atom:id element). Thoughts? - Sylvain [1] http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-05.txt [2] http://www.defuze.org/archives/2006/03/14/about-atom-feed-threads From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 16 11:43:39 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJvZb-000498-Cr for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 11:43:39 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJvZa-0008E0-19 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 11:43:39 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2GGSsVm007012; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 09:28:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2GGSsPo007011; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 09:28:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.193]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2GGSrXA007005 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 09:28:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from t.broyer@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so377803nzf for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 08:28:52 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=bRyOk6X1RgYupA6Pe+znn0F6Lk1JnWyV1ckz3ALhCBSf9nDAbLJW+ufCX0VNn+/N5K1Hi7nxqbhjopGEUgtZed8jqProhEmaTs6msX2zh8a0491wPc3XIxsnRbIxKbK20u9/gTuDJ+HzzU7+MymJavMR30+gcUCwGHM7Gl+mZ1Q= Received: by 10.37.20.30 with SMTP id x30mr2615277nzi; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 08:28:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.36.177.6 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 08:28:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 17:28:47 +0100 From: "Thomas Broyer" To: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: Atom Thread Feed syntax In-Reply-To: <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Disposition: inline References: <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id k2GGSrXA007006 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2GGSsVm007012 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 2006/3/16, Sylvain Hellegouarch : > Calling such an attribute 'id' is a mistake in my opinion as it confuse= s > with the actual ID of the element itself within the XML document it > belongs to It could lead to confusion, but as Atom doesn't define such an attribute in its own namespace (or on elements in its own namespace) and as no other extension that I know of do that either, I don't think it really matters=85 > and it makes impossible for another element within the document to > have the same value as an 'id'. In your blog, you actually wrote: > The other problem I have with naming this attribute id is that no other > element of the document can use the same attribute name and attribute > value since that within an XML document, these are unique (unless I am > mistaken of course). I'm sorry to have to tell you that you *are* mistaken=85 Having an attribute named "id" doesn't make it an "ID" (in the sense of a unique identifier throughout the document, such as the ID type in a DTD of xs:ID in XMLSchema), otherwise: - you wouldn't have to declare them explicitely in your DTDs and there wouldn't be a need for an ID (resp. xs:ID) type in DTD (resp. XMLSchema) - the validity constraint "One ID Per Element Type" [http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#one-id-per-el] could never be met as soon as you'd declare an ID attribute with a name different from "id" - there wouldn't have been a need for xml:id [http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-i= d/] > I would rather move the content of that attribute as a text element of = the > 'in-reply-to' element (as does the atom:id element). Eventually, I'd rather rename it to resource-id=85 -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 16 12:03:16 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJvsa-0006DT-8i for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 12:03:16 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJvsY-0000i1-T5 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 12:03:16 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2GGiIYY007751; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 09:44:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2GGiISC007750; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 09:44:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from linux.site (host81-159-216-191.range81-159.btcentralplus.com [81.159.216.191]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2GGiG2h007732 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 09:44:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from sh@defuze.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by linux.site (Postfix) with ESMTP id F23F0CD7F; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 16:44:04 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <441987C4.8090902@defuze.org> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 16:44:04 +0100 From: Sylvain Hellegouarch Reply-To: sh@defuze.org User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thomas Broyer CC: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: Atom Thread Feed syntax References: <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2GGiIYY007751 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Hello Thomas, > It could lead to confusion, but as Atom doesn't define such an > attribute in its own namespace (or on elements in its own namespace) > and as no other extension that I know of do that either, I don't think > it really matters=85 > =20 You are right Atom does not define such an attribute but I'd be happier=20 if extensions could follow Atom conventions as well. Atom sets the=20 atom:id value not as in an attribute of atom:id but as its content. Why=20 not following the convention in the first place? Besides the fact there is no other extension to do so as of yet is quite=20 irrelevant to me. Atom extensions are fairly young and hopefully they'll=20 be more and more spreaded. > I'm sorry to have to tell you that you *are* mistaken=85 > > Having an attribute named "id" doesn't make it an "ID" (in the sense > of a unique identifier throughout the document, such as the ID type in > a DTD of xs:ID in XMLSchema), otherwise: > - you wouldn't have to declare them explicitely in your DTDs and > there wouldn't be a need for an ID (resp. xs:ID) type in DTD (resp. > XMLSchema) > - the validity constraint "One ID Per Element Type" > [http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#one-id-per-el] could never be met as > soon as you'd declare an ID attribute with a name different from "id" > - there wouldn't have been a need for xml:id=20 > [http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-id/] > > =20 Again this is a matter of convention in my opinion. When reading an XML=20 document I don't want to be obliged to think about the actual meaning of=20 an id attribute. You are indeed right (and thank you for explaining it=20 to me) in terms of specification but conventions are often as important.=20 Specially for people like me who are not XML guru. Thanks for your feedback by the way :) - Sylvain From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 16 14:22:38 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJy3S-0003LQ-Hv for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 14:22:38 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJy3S-0005fj-5m for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 14:22:38 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2GJ3eH4014110; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 12:03:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2GJ3eVw014109; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 12:03:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.198]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2GJ3b5G014103 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 12:03:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from t.broyer@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so406776nzf for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 11:03:37 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=GhxtxzQyKlIeuUkmkAY8I6Ya+G+u3o2ndiv7dpVoqguYo4EIgiEYpOsK1AhKKcbkCEsc9lteVif+2+NcaSGmOYzapUc6dhxQNcX1W44S5Kobl2X9NkWDK7TJyqxCD2vFhVmDK6pz2AcTdB+t4hgoFjCzqZ9NWXpEzFwBau6kHHM= Received: by 10.36.12.13 with SMTP id 13mr1332570nzl; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 11:03:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.36.177.6 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 11:03:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 20:03:27 +0100 From: "Thomas Broyer" To: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: Atom Thread Feed syntax In-Reply-To: <441987C4.8090902@defuze.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Disposition: inline References: <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> <441987C4.8090902@defuze.org> X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id k2GJ3c5G014104 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2GJ3eH4014110 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 2006/3/16, Sylvain Hellegouarch : > > It could lead to confusion, but as Atom doesn't define such an > > attribute in its own namespace (or on elements in its own namespace) > > and as no other extension that I know of do that either, I don't thin= k > > it really matters=85 > > You are right Atom does not define such an attribute but I'd be happier > if extensions could follow Atom conventions as well. Atom sets the > atom:id value not as in an attribute of atom:id but as its content. Why > not following the convention in the first place? Because they don't deserve the same role. atom:id gives the identifier of the resource _described_ by the containing element, while thr:in-reply-to/@id gives the identifier of the resource _referenced_ by the containing element (or, actually, gives an identifier _as a reference_ to this resource). In that sense, thr:in-reply-to deserves the same role as @href. If you get back to previous versions of the threading extension, you'll see that it had been proposed that there would only be @href, whether or not the given IRI were to be dereferenced (e.g. by making an HTTP request) or just used as a globally unique identifier. This has been worked out because a) people (including me) wanted that these roles (retrieving vs. identifying) be clearly distinguished and b) there wouldn't then have a mean to give both the resource identifier and an IRI where to retrieve a copy of it. > > Having an attribute named "id" doesn't make it an "ID" (in the sense > > of a unique identifier throughout the document, such as the ID type i= n > > a DTD of xs:ID in XMLSchema), [=85] > > Again this is a matter of convention in my opinion. When reading an XML > document I don't want to be obliged to think about the actual meaning o= f > an id attribute. You are indeed right (and thank you for explaining it > to me) in terms of specification but conventions are often as important. > Specially for people like me who are not XML guru. Well, I wouldn't describe myself as an XML guru either ;-) -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 16 14:45:30 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJyPa-0005TE-OK for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 14:45:30 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FJyPZ-00063Y-BL for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 14:45:30 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2GJV2m9015968; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 12:31:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2GJV2jW015967; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 12:31:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.fourthought.com (fw1.fourthought.com [65.101.207.230]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2GJV1ng015954 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 12:31:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from uche.ogbuji@fourthought.com) Received: from [192.168.2.2] (unknown [70.90.116.206]) by mail.fourthought.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0F50882F; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 12:07:27 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <4419BCFC.9010008@fourthought.com> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 12:31:08 -0700 From: Uche Ogbuji Organization: Fourthought, Inc. User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060218) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Powell Cc: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Atom syndication schema References: <87slqrytn9.fsf@nwalsh.com> <43F215F5.5030409@fourthought.com> <1546562261.20060314234203@djpowell.net> In-Reply-To: <1546562261.20060314234203@djpowell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 David Powell wrote: > Not sure if this is a known bug, but I just noticed that the RelaxNG > grammar doesn't accept "atomCommonAttributes" (eg xml:lang) on the > "atom:name" and "atom:uri" and "atom:email" elements used within > Person constructs. Did you cc me because of my coverage of the matter? http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2006-02-06/Small_fix_ If so, I think I said all I have to say about it there. My fixed RNG is still available. -- Uche Ogbuji Fourthought, Inc. http://uche.ogbuji.net http://fourthought.com http://copia.ogbuji.net http://4Suite.org Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 16 16:56:05 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FK0Rx-0007Uj-40 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 16:56:05 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FK0Rv-0002TA-HU for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 16:56:05 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2GLg6dS020561; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 14:42:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2GLg60i020560; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 14:42:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mta07-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.47]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2GLg5dd020547 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 14:42:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20060316214158.HRLO29343.mtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com>; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 21:41:58 +0000 Received: from cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust17.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([81.111.201.17]) by aamtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20060316214158.MEAP28606.aamtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust17.bagu.cable.ntl.com>; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 21:41:58 +0000 Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 21:41:56 +0000 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.71.03) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <903804474.20060316214156@djpowell.net> To: Uche Ogbuji CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Atom syndication schema In-Reply-To: <4419BCFC.9010008@fourthought.com> References: <87slqrytn9.fsf@nwalsh.com> <43F215F5.5030409@fourthought.com> <1546562261.20060314234203@djpowell.net> <4419BCFC.9010008@fourthought.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Thursday, March 16, 2006, 7:31:08 PM, you wrote: > David Powell wrote: >> Not sure if this is a known bug, but I just noticed that the RelaxNG >> grammar doesn't accept "atomCommonAttributes" (eg xml:lang) on the >> "atom:name" and "atom:uri" and "atom:email" elements used within >> Person constructs. > Did you cc me because of my coverage of the matter? > http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2006-02-06/Small_fix_ > If so, I think I said all I have to say about it there. My fixed RNG is > still available. Er, I hadn't read the thread properly, and posted to it having independently discovered the same bug when I was doing some hard-core XSLT-ing of Atom. Doh. Could you post the errata to the rfc-editor, via: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata.html -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 16 19:29:10 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FK2q6-0006Lx-6d for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 19:29:10 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FK2q4-0000K3-Mx for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 19:29:10 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2H0BnDk027292; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 17:11:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2H0Bnkf027291; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 17:11:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k2H0Bl7a027281 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 17:11:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 17 Mar 2006 00:11:41 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-221-170.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.221.170] by mail.gmx.net (mp039) with SMTP; 17 Mar 2006 01:11:41 +0100 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 01:12:16 +0100 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: Atom Thread Feed syntax Message-ID: <20060317001216.GU13237@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom-Syntax References: <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> <441987C4.8090902@defuze.org> <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2H0BnDk027292 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 * Thomas Broyer [2006-03-16 20:15]: >2006/3/16, Sylvain Hellegouarch : >> Atom sets the atom:id value not as in an attribute of atom:id >> but as its content. Why not following the convention in the >> first place? > >Because they don't deserve the same role. atom:id gives the >identifier of the resource _described_ by the containing >element, while thr:in-reply-to/@id gives the identifier of the >resource _referenced_ by the containing element (or, actually, >gives an identifier _as a reference_ to this resource). In that >sense, thr:in-reply-to deserves the same role as @href. +1 * Thomas Broyer [2006-03-16 17:40]: >2006/3/16, Sylvain Hellegouarch : >> I would rather move the content of that attribute as a text >> element of the 'in-reply-to' element (as does the atom:id >> element). > >Eventually, I'd rather rename it to resource-id=E2=80=A6 Considering the above-mentioned symmetry with @href, I=E2=80=99m coming around to whose-ever view it was that this attribute should be called @ref for balance. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 17 04:41:15 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FKBSN-0006YK-KS for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 04:41:15 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FKBSM-0008H1-1S for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 04:41:15 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2H9Mcvp047417; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 02:22:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2H9McM6047416; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 02:22:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2H9MaWB047401 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 02:22:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp) Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id k2H9MQu20487; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 18:22:26 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 335c_8c950d48_b597_11da_8f09_0014221f2a2d; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 18:22:25 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k2H9LA6r009790; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 18:21:46 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20060317172945.0902cba0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 17:41:22 +0900 To: Norman Walsh , Atom-Syntax From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: Atom syndication schema In-Reply-To: <877j6uxuo2.fsf@nwalsh.com> References: <87slqrytn9.fsf@nwalsh.com> <43F215F5.5030409@fourthought.com> <1546562261.20060314234203@djpowell.net> <6.0.0.20.2.20060315121947.078123c0@localhost> <20060315090130.GB300@nic.fr> <877j6uxuo2.fsf@nwalsh.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 At 00:42 06/03/17, Norman Walsh wrote: >/ "Thomas Broyer" was heard to say: >| RFC 3987 says (section 1.2 Applicability): >| For example, XML schema [XMLSchema] has an explicit type >| "anyURI" that includes IRIs and IRI references. Therefore, IRIs >| and IRI references can be in attributes and elements of type >| "anyURI". >> >| So, actually, it seems that the Atom RNC could say "atomUri = xs:anyURI". > >Yes, I think that's the case. Some details (from the primary editor of RFC 3987 :-): From a mile high viewpoint, and even from much lower, it is definitely the case. From the viewpoint of intent, it is also definitely the case. When looking with a microscope, you will find some little differences, because xs:anyURI was described before the IRI spec (RFC 3987) was approved. These differences are: 1) xs:aryURI also allows spaces and a few other ASCII characters that are not allowed in URIs nor in IRIs (but the IRI spec has an escape hatch for such cases). 2) The IRI spec contains many more details than the xs:anyURI description, in particular also some requirements re. normalization. However, some of the requirements in this area of the IRI spec may be lowered or removed in the future because we have received feedback from implementers that there are difficulties to implement these. Regards, Martin. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 17 05:08:11 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FKBsR-0001uM-Sj for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 05:08:11 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FKBsP-0000mi-7F for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 05:08:11 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2H9numf048816; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 02:49:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2H9nupK048815; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 02:49:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k2H9nsu2048808 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 02:49:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from derhoermi@gmx.net) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 17 Mar 2006 09:49:48 -0000 Received: from dslb-084-056-213-015.pools.arcor-ip.net (EHLO hive) [84.56.213.15] by mail.gmx.net (mp004) with SMTP; 17 Mar 2006 10:49:48 +0100 X-Authenticated: #723575 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann To: Martin Duerst Cc: Norman Walsh , Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: Atom syndication schema Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 10:49:54 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87slqrytn9.fsf@nwalsh.com> <43F215F5.5030409@fourthought.com> <1546562261.20060314234203@djpowell.net> <6.0.0.20.2.20060315121947.078123c0@localhost> <20060315090130.GB300@nic.fr> <877j6uxuo2.fsf@nwalsh.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20060317172945.0902cba0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20060317172945.0902cba0@localhost> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.2/32.830 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2H9numf048816 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 * Martin Duerst wrote: >When looking with a microscope, you will find some little >differences, because xs:anyURI was described before the IRI >spec (RFC 3987) was approved. These differences are: > >1) xs:aryURI also allows spaces and a few other ASCII characters > that are not allowed in URIs nor in IRIs (but the IRI spec has > an escape hatch for such cases). >2) The IRI spec contains many more details than the xs:anyURI > description, in particular also some requirements re. > normalization. However, some of the requirements in this > area of the IRI spec may be lowered or removed in the future > because we have received feedback from implementers that > there are difficulties to implement these. I agree with Martin that it would be incorrect to use xsd:anyURI here. --=20 Bj=F6rn H=F6hrmann =B7 mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de =B7 http://bjoern.hoehr= mann.de Weinh. Str. 22 =B7 Telefon: +49(0)621/4309674 =B7 http://www.bjoernsworld= .de 68309 Mannheim =B7 PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 =B7 http://www.websitedev.d= e/=20 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 17 05:25:21 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FKC93-0005Yv-BU for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 05:25:21 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FKC8y-0001MG-KK for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 05:25:21 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2HA1L7O049233; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 03:01:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2HA1LvA049232; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 03:01:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nproxy.gmail.com (nproxy.gmail.com [64.233.182.207]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2HA1Kws049226 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 03:01:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from danny.ayers@gmail.com) Received: by nproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id a4so398274nfc for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 02:01:19 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=gwakpy74j01ehw3DwUtL5eKlbkU+Dfivs7cALALgUVteor41fVZaQ/tdt4o9AhZXu/eATnxLBEXeC9v+IucgOpFjtXga6O/zMDVpNkQGWSGc7YCfEetYTVWWw5PxZRpnRQy/6iFPahVmxCs7GrDLz49jZyxiZQ/fBif85zMSzIQ= Received: by 10.49.68.3 with SMTP id v3mr1280299nfk; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 02:01:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.49.43.17 with HTTP; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 02:01:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0603170201y6ec36b5epccd225856865e732@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 11:01:19 +0100 From: "Danny Ayers" Subject: WWW 2006 Developer Track - Call for Developer Submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id k2HA1Lws049227 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2HA1L7O049233 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 37af5f8fbf6f013c5b771388e24b09e7 Apologies for cross-posts. The full call is below (and at http://www2006.org/developers/cfp.php), but in short we're looking for developers to present cool stuff. It can be anything from a 5 min lightning demo to a 30 min presentation. Of particular relevance here are the "Next Wave" sessions : an umbrella for all those Web 2.0 and Semantic Web things like blogging, microformats, Atom, Ajax, JSON, mashups, RDF/OWL, SPARQL... The deadline for proposals is the 19th March, but all we're looking for at this point is a short description (see below). --------------------------------------------------------- The developers' track consists of presentations by developers for developers. The audience is expected to be technically capable, and wanting to see a 'wow' factor with new functionality. Technical nitty-gritty is encouraged. Demos are good. Lightening talks consisting entirely of a demo are encouraged. To present your work on the developers' track, please respond to this call for submissions, by giving us a short description of what it is you would like to present, how long a presentation you would like to give, and indicate for which session(s) it would be appropriate. Submissions are made by email to the Developer Chairs (www2006-developers@www2006.org). Please send the following information: * Contact information * Presentation title * The preferred length of the presentation * The possible length of presentation, list all that you are willing to accept. lightning No more than five minutes, for a quick demo. Please choose this option, even if you would prefer to give a longer presentation. Not choosing this option indicates that you do not want to give a lightening talk, even if there is not space for you to give a longer talk. 10 minutes 20 minutes The current intention is to mainly have 20 minute presentations. 30 minutes * Session(s). Choose at least one session. List all sessions for which you think your submission is appropriate. Note: the final decision on which sessions will run has not yet been made, and will depend in part upon the submissions received. The sessions are as follows: + Mobile + Society + Health + Education + Science + Security + Online Media + Next Wave Web Technologies + Ontologies and Semantic Web + XML technologies: XSLT2, XQuery etc. * Some other material. This can be: + Short description, e.g. one page for a lightening talk, two pages for anything else. (This is best) + Slides: e.g. one or two slides for a lightening talk, ten or twelve for a longer talk. + A demo. This should be submitted as screen shots, with a short description. It is also possible to give a URL for your code/demo. (Unless you already have this material available, you are discouraged from creating it for submission). This other material should be in any of the following formats: + plain text + PDF + PNG, GIF, JPEG + Powerpoint (not preferred) + Word (not preferred) If you have more than one file to submit, please create a zip archive. Send a single file, or the zip, as an attachment with your proposal. If the attachments are too large, send an URL to them instead. * Optionally a URL to your demo or code The submissions deadline is March 19th (midnight in Hawaii). Special Low Rate for Independent Developers (limited availability) ------------------------------------------------------------------ We are pleased to be able to offer a special very low rate for independent developers presenting on the developers track. This is available only for self-financing developers (i.e. not receiving expenses from their employer or university), who are giving presentations on the developers track (including lightening talks). The rate is optionally: * a free "One Day Attendance" for the day that the developer is participating, or * =A3199 for a "Standard Passport" conference registration for the whole week. This rate is obtainable by email application to the Developer Track Chairs along with a presentation submission (see below). The chairs thank Hewlett Packard for their generosity in sponsoring this rate. -- http://dannyayers.com From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 17 08:23:41 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FKEvd-0007EB-6P for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 08:23:41 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FKEvb-0006fR-Q1 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 08:23:41 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2HCwlmw057318; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 05:58:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2HCwlTk057317; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 05:58:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mout2.freenet.de (mout2.freenet.de [194.97.50.155]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2HCwkU3057311 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 05:58:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from sewe@rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de) Received: from [194.97.50.135] (helo=mx2.freenet.de) by mout2.freenet.de with esmtpa (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FKEXV-00056M-6f for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 13:58:45 +0100 Received: from ultra17.rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de ([130.83.160.107]) by mx2.freenet.de with esmtpsa (ID sewe2004@freenet.de) (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.61 #1) id 1FKEXV-0002o4-4C for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 13:58:45 +0100 Message-ID: <441AB27F.7030304@rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 13:58:39 +0100 From: Andreas Sewe Organization: Fachbereich Informatik, TU Darmstadt User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20050930) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Atom Thread Feed syntax References: <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> <441987C4.8090902@defuze.org> <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> <20060317001216.GU13237@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20060317001216.GU13237@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2HCwlmw057318 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 > Thomas Broyer : >> Sylvain Hellegouarch : >>> I would rather move the content of that attribute as a text=20 >>> element of the 'in-reply-to' element (as does the atom:id=20 >>> element). I raised a similar issue regarding James Snell's Feed Rank I-D where a ranking:scheme element has an @id attribute containing a IRI. In this case the attribute is not used as a reference to another element, though, but as an identifier of the ranking:scheme itself. (ranking:rank elements refer to ranking:schemes via a @scheme attribute, which contains the identifying IRI in question.) In this case I think the analogy with atom:entry or atom:feed is justified, so one conceivably could have something like the following: http://example.org/five-stars (In a mail James Snell proposed changing @id to @name, instead.) >> Eventually, I'd rather rename it to resource-id=E2=80=A6 >=20 > Considering the above-mentioned symmetry with @href, I=E2=80=99m coming= =20 > around to whose-ever view it was that this attribute should be called > @ref for balance. But the issue raised by the OP is subtly different from the Feed Rank one, since the Feed Rank I-D uses @id to label a ranking:scheme, whereas the Feed Thread I-D uses @id to link to an atom:entry. In the latter case the analogy to atom:id is IMHO unjustified, since atom:id serves as a label, not a link. @ref, however, sounds like an entirely reasonable name for such an attribute. Just my 2 Zorkmids. Andreas Sewe From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 17 10:41:23 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FKH4t-0004E2-IR for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 10:41:23 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FKH4s-0002rQ-7a for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 10:41:23 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2HFSkwP065243; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 08:28:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2HFSkbJ065242; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 08:28:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from linux.site (host-87-74-15-186.bulldogdsl.com [87.74.15.186]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2HFShmi065233 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 08:28:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from sh@defuze.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by linux.site (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2746CCEC for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 15:28:34 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <441AC792.9020101@defuze.org> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 15:28:34 +0100 From: Sylvain Hellegouarch Reply-To: sh@defuze.org User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: Atom Thread Feed syntax References: <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> <441987C4.8090902@defuze.org> <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> <20060317001216.GU13237@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20060317001216.GU13237@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2HFSkwP065243 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 > > Considering the above-mentioned symmetry with @href, I=E2=80=99m coming > around to whose-ever view it was that this attribute should be > called @ref for balance. +1 for @ref as well. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 17 11:25:31 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FKHlb-0003t0-TD for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 11:25:31 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FKHla-0004ZJ-8d for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 11:25:31 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2HG7ed8067084; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 09:07:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2HG7eK7067083; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 09:07:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.203]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2HG7dE8067077 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 09:07:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i13so563668wra for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 08:07:30 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=j8u3ToS595gR3ZKL5HXSmmFRZ01KVaZioYWRNmXhH7gvNvrorAT2HXnZX1VxpN6fvhs/65yIfdsuqpdHrhu9aWjyfGVENn1F7QElcq8Aau2exJ50aMBxMITSMRlG+WKKvMog+qk7S4CpSOZbrJ1ak+7aUrTa59zYmBjyB3GDawA= Received: by 10.54.104.11 with SMTP id b11mr2675572wrc; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 08:07:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.101? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id g9sm2351096wra.2006.03.17.08.07.29; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 08:07:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <441ADEB9.2040101@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 08:07:21 -0800 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Atom Thread Feed syntax References: <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> <441987C4.8090902@defuze.org> <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> <20060317001216.GU13237@klangraum> <441AB27F.7030304@rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de> In-Reply-To: <441AB27F.7030304@rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Andreas Sewe wrote: > @ref, however, sounds like an entirely reasonable name for such an > attribute. > I'm coming around to this view as well. On the downside, there are implementations of the draft that are being prepared now, I will ping the folks who I know are implementing and see if a name change for this attribute would cause any inconvenience. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 19 03:10:36 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FKszk-0006ij-SQ for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 03:10:36 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FKszj-0003mQ-7W for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 03:10:36 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2J7vC8j047951; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 00:57:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2J7vCVe047950; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 00:57:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.195]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2J7vAYI047942 for ; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 00:57:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp) Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id k2J7uld23077; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 16:56:47 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 55f9_ea1982a0_b71d_11da_93d0_0014221f2a2d; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 16:56:46 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k2J7tCJx008249; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 16:55:52 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20060319161753.09c944e0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 16:33:32 +0900 To: Bjoern Hoehrmann From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: Atom syndication schema Cc: Norman Walsh , Atom-Syntax In-Reply-To: References: <87slqrytn9.fsf@nwalsh.com> <43F215F5.5030409@fourthought.com> <1546562261.20060314234203@djpowell.net> <6.0.0.20.2.20060315121947.078123c0@localhost> <20060315090130.GB300@nic.fr> <877j6uxuo2.fsf@nwalsh.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20060317172945.0902cba0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a At 18:49 06/03/17, Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: > >* Martin Duerst wrote: >>When looking with a microscope, you will find some little >>differences, because xs:anyURI was described before the IRI >>spec (RFC 3987) was approved. These differences are: >> >>1) xs:aryURI also allows spaces and a few other ASCII characters >> that are not allowed in URIs nor in IRIs (but the IRI spec has >> an escape hatch for such cases). >>2) The IRI spec contains many more details than the xs:anyURI >> description, in particular also some requirements re. >> normalization. However, some of the requirements in this >> area of the IRI spec may be lowered or removed in the future >> because we have received feedback from implementers that >> there are difficulties to implement these. > >I agree with Martin that it would be incorrect to use xsd:anyURI here. Sorry, but I never said that it would be incorrect to use xsd:anyURI. I personally think that it should be okay to use xsd:anyURI. The differences are microscopic, and they should become even smaller, or hopefully go away completely, over time. It does not make sense to perpetuate minor differences for something that was and is supposed to be one and the same thing. Regards, Martin. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 19 10:53:47 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FL0Dz-0004Jk-E1 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 10:53:47 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FL0Dv-0007Hp-Ky for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 10:53:47 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2JFefAL063888; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 08:40:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2JFefdZ063887; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 08:40:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp.dnainternet.net (smtp.dnainternet.net [62.241.254.111]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2JFeexJ063881 for ; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 08:40:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from hsivonen@iki.fi) Received: from 217-140-228-131.adsl-net.finnetcom.net ([217.140.228.131]:63567 "EHLO [217.140.228.131]" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by smtp2.dnainternet.net with ESMTP id S1229482AbWCSPkf (ORCPT ); Sun, 19 Mar 2006 17:40:35 +0200 In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20060319161753.09c944e0@localhost> References: <87slqrytn9.fsf@nwalsh.com> <43F215F5.5030409@fourthought.com> <1546562261.20060314234203@djpowell.net> <6.0.0.20.2.20060315121947.078123c0@localhost> <20060315090130.GB300@nic.fr> <877j6uxuo2.fsf@nwalsh.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20060317172945.0902cba0@localhost> <6.0.0.20.2.20060319161753.09c944e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Atom Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henri Sivonen Subject: Datatype for IRIs in RELAX NG (was: Re: Atom syndication schema) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 17:40:33 +0200 To: rng-users@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 (Discussion started on atom-syntax, but this is a more general RELAX NG issue, so cross-posting to rng-users.) On Mar 19, 2006, at 09:33, Martin Duerst wrote: > At 18:49 06/03/17, Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: > > > >* Martin Duerst wrote: > >>When looking with a microscope, you will find some little > >>differences, because xs:anyURI was described before the IRI > >>spec (RFC 3987) was approved. These differences are: > >> > >>1) xs:aryURI also allows spaces and a few other ASCII characters > >> that are not allowed in URIs nor in IRIs (but the IRI spec has > >> an escape hatch for such cases). > >>2) The IRI spec contains many more details than the xs:anyURI > >> description, in particular also some requirements re. > >> normalization. However, some of the requirements in this > >> area of the IRI spec may be lowered or removed in the future > >> because we have received feedback from implementers that > >> there are difficulties to implement these. > > > >I agree with Martin that it would be incorrect to use xsd:anyURI > here. > > Sorry, but I never said that it would be incorrect to use > xsd:anyURI. I personally think that it should be okay to > use xsd:anyURI. The differences are microscopic, and they should > become even smaller, or hopefully go away completely, over time. I need datatypes for IRIs in general (relative, absolute or just fragment identifiers) and for absolute IRIs (possibly with a fragment id) in a RELAX NG schema. Is it really the best practice to use xsd:anyURI and sweep the discrepancies under the rug in the hope that future definitions of xsd:anyURI change the meaning of the schema later? Can xsd:anyURI be augmented with a regexp pattern to restrict "spaces and a few other ASCII characters" in such a way that the resulting datatype restriction matches the definition of IRI? Has anyone implemented a strictly correct IRI datatype in a Java datatype library (for Jing and MSV)? -- Henri Sivonen hsivonen@iki.fi http://hsivonen.iki.fi/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 19 11:07:55 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FL0Rf-00018W-Gc for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 11:07:55 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FL0Ra-0007h3-SO for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 11:07:55 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2JFqYou064220; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 08:52:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2JFqYir064219; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 08:52:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2JFqVSC064212 for ; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 08:52:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from cowan@ccil.org) Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1FL0Cg-00075q-BL; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 10:52:27 -0500 Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 10:52:26 -0500 To: rng-users@yahoogroups.com Cc: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: [rng-users] Datatype for IRIs in RELAX NG (was: Re: Atom syndication schema) Message-ID: <20060319155225.GB4271@ccil.org> References: <1546562261.20060314234203@djpowell.net> <6.0.0.20.2.20060315121947.078123c0@localhost> <20060315090130.GB300@nic.fr> <877j6uxuo2.fsf@nwalsh.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20060317172945.0902cba0@localhost> <6.0.0.20.2.20060319161753.09c944e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Henri Sivonen scripsit: > Is it really the best practice to use xsd:anyURI and sweep the > discrepancies under the rug in the hope that future definitions of > xsd:anyURI change the meaning of the schema later? Can xsd:anyURI be > augmented with a regexp pattern to restrict "spaces and a few other > ASCII characters" in such a way that the resulting datatype > restriction matches the definition of IRI? Has anyone implemented a > strictly correct IRI datatype in a Java datatype library (for Jing > and MSV)? It's certainly possible to construct a regular expression, a long and complex one, that will match all IRIs and only IRIs (note that "IRI" by itself means "absolute IRI with or without fragment identifier"). The question is whether it's really worth doing so. If you feel you need it, by all means go ahead. -- LEAR: Dost thou call me fool, boy? John Cowan FOOL: All thy other titles http://www.ccil.org/~cowan thou hast given away: cowan@ccil.org That thou wast born with. http://www.ap.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 19 12:24:22 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FL1de-0003BL-43 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 12:24:22 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FL1db-0002DZ-IV for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 12:24:21 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2JH8ObD067194; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 10:08:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2JH8OLv067193; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 10:08:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail1.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail1.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.3]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2JH8N4n067187 for ; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 10:08:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from elharo@metalab.unc.edu) Received: (qmail 21108 invoked from network); 19 Mar 2006 17:08:22 -0000 Received: from dsl254-067-087.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO [192.168.254.100]) (elharo@[216.254.67.87]) (envelope-sender ) by mail1.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 19 Mar 2006 17:08:22 -0000 Message-ID: <441D9005.1070505@metalab.unc.edu> Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 12:08:21 -0500 From: Elliotte Harold User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Macintosh/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henri Sivonen CC: rng-users@yahoogroups.com, Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Datatype for IRIs in RELAX NG References: <87slqrytn9.fsf@nwalsh.com> <43F215F5.5030409@fourthought.com> <1546562261.20060314234203@djpowell.net> <6.0.0.20.2.20060315121947.078123c0@localhost> <20060315090130.GB300@nic.fr> <877j6uxuo2.fsf@nwalsh.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20060317172945.0902cba0@localhost> <6.0.0.20.2.20060319161753.09c944e0@localhost> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2JH8ObD067194 X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 I would recommend against using xsd:anyURI for IRIs. A URI is much more=20 restrictive than an IRI, and one of the easiest things for a schema=20 validator to check about an xsd:anyURI is that it only contains=20 URI-legal ASCII characters. I think a new type is necessary if you do=20 want to allow IRIs instead of simple URIs. I suspect you could do it=20 with a regular expression but the syntax would be really hairy. --=20 =EF=BB=BFElliotte Rusty Harold elharo@metalab.unc.edu XML in a Nutshell 3rd Edition Just Published! http://www.cafeconleche.org/books/xian3/ http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=3D0596007647/cafeaulaitA/ref=3Dnos= im From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Mar 19 12:48:35 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FL215-0003tU-53 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 12:48:35 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FL212-0002zU-Ls for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 12:48:35 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2JHUHeV067972; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 10:30:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2JHUHxo067971; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 10:30:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k2JHUGR9067964 for ; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 10:30:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from derhoermi@gmx.net) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 19 Mar 2006 17:30:10 -0000 Received: from dslb-084-057-226-025.pools.arcor-ip.net (EHLO hive) [84.57.226.25] by mail.gmx.net (mp027) with SMTP; 19 Mar 2006 18:30:10 +0100 X-Authenticated: #723575 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann To: Elliotte Harold Cc: rng-users@yahoogroups.com, Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Datatype for IRIs in RELAX NG Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 18:30:18 +0100 Message-ID: References: <6.0.0.20.2.20060315121947.078123c0@localhost> <20060315090130.GB300@nic.fr> <877j6uxuo2.fsf@nwalsh.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20060317172945.0902cba0@localhost> <6.0.0.20.2.20060319161753.09c944e0@localhost> <441D9005.1070505@metalab.unc.edu> In-Reply-To: <441D9005.1070505@metalab.unc.edu> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.2/32.830 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2JHUHeV067972 X-Spam-Score: 1.9 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f * Elliotte Harold wrote: >I would recommend against using xsd:anyURI for IRIs. A URI is much more=20 >restrictive than an IRI, and one of the easiest things for a schema=20 >validator to check about an xsd:anyURI is that it only contains=20 >URI-legal ASCII characters. I think a new type is necessary if you do=20 >want to allow IRIs instead of simple URIs. I suspect you could do it=20 >with a regular expression but the syntax would be really hairy. In Schema 1.1 it is not possible for a xsd:string to be no xsd:anyURI. --=20 Bj=F6rn H=F6hrmann =B7 mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de =B7 http://bjoern.hoehr= mann.de Weinh. Str. 22 =B7 Telefon: +49(0)621/4309674 =B7 http://www.bjoernsworld= .de 68309 Mannheim =B7 PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 =B7 http://www.websitedev.d= e/=20 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Mar 21 04:20:07 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FLd27-0005z4-8m for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 04:20:07 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FLd25-00064J-TG for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 04:20:07 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2L92sIE058500; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 02:02:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2L92sFa058499; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 02:02:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.195]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2L92qZN058492 for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 02:02:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp) Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id k2L92Qd10014; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 18:02:26 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 2d6b_6b368404_b8b9_11da_8ae0_0014221fa3c9; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 18:02:25 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k2L90i16006177; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 18:01:10 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20060321152820.09efdad0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 15:34:54 +0900 To: Elliotte Harold , Henri Sivonen From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: Datatype for IRIs in RELAX NG Cc: rng-users@yahoogroups.com, Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: <441D9005.1070505@metalab.unc.edu> References: <87slqrytn9.fsf@nwalsh.com> <43F215F5.5030409@fourthought.com> <1546562261.20060314234203@djpowell.net> <6.0.0.20.2.20060315121947.078123c0@localhost> <20060315090130.GB300@nic.fr> <877j6uxuo2.fsf@nwalsh.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20060317172945.0902cba0@localhost> <6.0.0.20.2.20060319161753.09c944e0@localhost> <441D9005.1070505@metalab.unc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a At 02:08 06/03/20, Elliotte Harold wrote: > >I would recommend against using xsd:anyURI for IRIs. A URI is much more restrictive than an IRI, and one of the easiest things for a schema validator to check about an xsd:anyURI is that it only contains URI-legal ASCII characters. This is indeed one of the easiest things, but it would be TOTALLY wrong. http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/datatypes.html#anyURI says, among else: The mapping from anyURI values to URIs is as defined by the URI reference escaping procedure defined in Section 5.4 Locator Attribute of [XML Linking Language] (see also Section 8 Character Encoding in URI References of [Character Model]). This means that a wide range of internationalized resource identifiers can be specified when an anyURI is called for, and still be understood as URIs per [RFC 2396], as amended by [RFC 2732], where appropriate to identify resources. If there is confusion in other venues about this issue, please help to make sure it gets fixed. Regards, Martin. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Mar 21 04:53:22 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FLdYI-0006Lr-9U for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 04:53:22 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FLdX0-0007OF-1O for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 04:52:03 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2L9cDVf059608; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 02:38:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2L9cDqp059607; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 02:38:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.195]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2L9cBf9059600 for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 02:38:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp) Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id k2L9bud12762; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 18:37:56 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 237f_60c901a4_b8be_11da_9ed2_0014221f2a2d; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 18:37:56 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k2L9aTdI006553; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 18:36:55 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20060321164630.09e19b70@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 17:07:08 +0900 To: Bjoern Hoehrmann , Elliotte Harold From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: Datatype for IRIs in RELAX NG Cc: rng-users@yahoogroups.com, Atom Syntax In-Reply-To: References: <6.0.0.20.2.20060315121947.078123c0@localhost> <20060315090130.GB300@nic.fr> <877j6uxuo2.fsf@nwalsh.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20060317172945.0902cba0@localhost> <6.0.0.20.2.20060319161753.09c944e0@localhost> <441D9005.1070505@metalab.unc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de At 02:30 06/03/20, Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: >In Schema 1.1 it is not possible for a xsd:string to be no xsd:anyURI. Can you explain? It seems you are saying that all xsd:strings are also xsd:anyURIs, but that seems going a bit too far. Regards, Martin. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Mar 21 04:53:56 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FLdYU-0006ql-5B for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 04:53:34 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FLdQX-0007JA-Cq for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 04:45:22 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2L9V8Ok059321; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 02:31:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2L9V8Zm059320; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 02:31:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k2L9V68Z059314 for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 02:31:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from julian.reschke@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 21 Mar 2006 09:31:00 -0000 Received: from p508FA27F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (EHLO [192.168.178.21]) [80.143.162.127] by mail.gmx.net (mp010) with SMTP; 21 Mar 2006 10:31:00 +0100 X-Authenticated: #1915285 Message-ID: <441FC787.1070002@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 10:29:43 +0100 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Duerst CC: Elliotte Harold , Henri Sivonen , rng-users@yahoogroups.com, Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Datatype for IRIs in RELAX NG References: <87slqrytn9.fsf@nwalsh.com> <43F215F5.5030409@fourthought.com> <1546562261.20060314234203@djpowell.net> <6.0.0.20.2.20060315121947.078123c0@localhost> <20060315090130.GB300@nic.fr> <877j6uxuo2.fsf@nwalsh.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20060317172945.0902cba0@localhost> <6.0.0.20.2.20060319161753.09c944e0@localhost> <441D9005.1070505@metalab.unc.edu> <6.0.0.20.2.20060321152820.09efdad0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20060321152820.09efdad0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Martin Duerst wrote: > > At 02:08 06/03/20, Elliotte Harold wrote: > > > >I would recommend against using xsd:anyURI for IRIs. A URI is much > more restrictive than an IRI, and one of the easiest things for a schema > validator to check about an xsd:anyURI is that it only contains > URI-legal ASCII characters. > > This is indeed one of the easiest things, but it would be TOTALLY > wrong. > > http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/datatypes.html#anyURI says, among else: > > The mapping from anyURI values to URIs is as defined by the URI > reference > escaping procedure defined in Section 5.4 Locator Attribute of [XML > Linking Language] (see also Section 8 Character Encoding in URI > References > of [Character Model]). This means that a wide range of internationalized > resource identifiers can be specified when an anyURI is called for, and > still be understood as URIs per [RFC 2396], as amended by [RFC 2732], > where appropriate to identify resources. > > If there is confusion in other venues about this issue, please help > to make sure it gets fixed. Well, maybe it's time that *some* specification adds new datatypes that do *exactly* what RFC3986 and RFC3987 ask for :-) Best regards, Julian From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Mar 21 07:36:45 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FLg6P-0002vK-Iq for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 07:36:45 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FLg6N-0005pN-3w for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 07:36:45 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2LCNCBU067208; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 05:23:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2LCNClM067207; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 05:23:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k2LCNAuF067201 for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 05:23:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from derhoermi@gmx.net) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 21 Mar 2006 12:23:04 -0000 Received: from dslb-084-056-220-191.pools.arcor-ip.net (EHLO hive) [84.56.220.191] by mail.gmx.net (mp042) with SMTP; 21 Mar 2006 13:23:04 +0100 X-Authenticated: #723575 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann To: Martin Duerst Cc: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Datatype for IRIs in RELAX NG Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 13:23:13 +0100 Message-ID: References: <877j6uxuo2.fsf@nwalsh.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20060317172945.0902cba0@localhost> <6.0.0.20.2.20060319161753.09c944e0@localhost> <441D9005.1070505@metalab.unc.edu> <6.0.0.20.2.20060321164630.09e19b70@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20060321164630.09e19b70@localhost> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.2/32.830 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2LCNCBU067208 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 * Martin Duerst wrote: >At 02:30 06/03/20, Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: > > >In Schema 1.1 it is not possible for a xsd:string to be no xsd:anyURI. > >Can you explain? It seems you are saying that all xsd:strings are >also xsd:anyURIs, but that seems going a bit too far. Yes, that's exactly what the XML Schema 1.1 Last Call Working Draft implies as far as I can tell. --=20 Bj=F6rn H=F6hrmann =B7 mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de =B7 http://bjoern.hoehr= mann.de Weinh. Str. 22 =B7 Telefon: +49(0)621/4309674 =B7 http://www.bjoernsworld= .de 68309 Mannheim =B7 PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 =B7 http://www.websitedev.d= e/=20 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 22 00:34:15 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FLvz5-0003bN-2k for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 00:34:15 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FLvz3-0006Qy-Aa for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 00:34:15 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2M5D7R1009177; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 22:13:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2M5D7pS009176; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 22:13:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.199]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2M5D5CM009169 for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 22:13:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from xmlhacker@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i27so57808wra for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 21:13:05 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:mime-version:content-type; b=QsWCe5lxFODtPLBe4q12Zt5zorOFOfamBC7g4X+AA/txjA+k+iV3G50wZBbJc0FH5XIGNqBIE29YooODP+gdOxj5Pq0TPc+0k0ovcXtGKdZUUxjTXvYwSHWshvPCgbOQ8HWoZNOzP9c21sQoINxtfY9Wd6WRRS5XJU5EdUvRT1g= Received: by 10.65.11.17 with SMTP id o17mr365724qbi; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 21:13:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.215.9 with HTTP; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 21:13:05 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 22:13:05 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "Atom Syntax" Subject: Latest IE7 release 'AtomicRSS' output comparison results Cc: "Sean Lyndersay" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_13729_13406721.1143004385176" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e8c5db863102a3ada84e0cd52a81a79e ------=_Part_13729_13406721.1143004385176 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline SGV5IEZvbGtzLAoKV2l0aCB5ZXN0ZXJkYXlzIGJ1aWxkIHJlbGVhc2Ugb2YgSUU3LCBpdCBzZWVt ZWQgYXBwcm9wcmlhdGUgdG8gcnVuIGEgcXVpY2sKaW52ZW50b3J5IGNoZWNrIHRvIHNlZSB3aGVy ZSB0aGluZ3Mgc3RhbmQgaW4gcmVnYXJkcyB0byB0aGUgZGVyaXZlZCBNUy9SU1MKY29udmVyc2lv biBvZiBhIGZhaXJseSBlbGVtZW50L2F0dHJpYnV0ZSB1c2FnZSBoZWF2eSBBdG9tIGZlZWQuICBI ZXJlJ3MgdGhlCm92ZXJhbGwgYnJlYWtkb3duLgoKKlByb2Nlc3MqOgpJIHRvb2sgYSBxdWljayBz 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[10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FM3R3-0003rv-GM for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 08:31:37 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FM3Qz-0007Lp-KF for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 08:31:37 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2MDC6xE029346; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 06:12:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2MDC6A8029345; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 06:12:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.48]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2MDC2NX029333 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 06:12:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamtaout04-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20060322131156.LEAF29040.mtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamtaout04-winn.ispmail.ntl.com>; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 13:11:56 +0000 Received: from cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust17.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([81.111.201.17]) by aamtaout04-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20060322131156.YOR18957.aamtaout04-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust17.bagu.cable.ntl.com>; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 13:11:56 +0000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 13:11:54 +0000 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.71.03) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <143448881.20060322131154@djpowell.net> To: "M. David Peterson" CC: "Atom Syntax" , "Sean Lyndersay" Subject: Re: Latest IE7 release 'AtomicRSS' output comparison results In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id k2MDC6NX029340 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2MDC6xE029346 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: dbb8771284c7a36189745aa720dc20ab Wednesday, March 22, 2006, 5:13:05 AM, M. David Peterson wrote: > Hey Folks, > =C2=A0 > With yesterdays build release of IE7, it seemed appropriate to run > a=C2=A0quick inventory check to see where things stand in regards to th= e > derived MS/RSS conversion of a fairly element/attribute usage > heavy=C2=A0Atom feed.=C2=A0=C2=A0Here's the overall=C2=A0breakdown. > [...] > Beyond this, it seems that everything else *SHOULD*=C2=A0 be able to ma= p > back fairly well. There haven't been many changes to the transformation process in this build, so all of the 15 issues with the Atom transformation in the old build are still issues with this one. http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg17898.html [Quick summary of actual data-loss: loss of person extensions, loss of timezones/corruption of times, loss of generator@version, titles are flattened to text without preserving HTML version, loss of category label, xml:base/xml:lang loss, inheritance of atom:author and atom:rights not handled ] The last issue perhaps needs some more explanation: In Atom, the following two entries are equivalent: a) David Powell [...] [...] b) [...] David Powell [...] The same inheritance also applies to some other elements such as atom:rights, and xml:base/lang suffer similar issues. Superficially it seems that there is a problem with IE7s rendering, in that doesn't display Tim Bray's name next to the entries. But, actually the problem is deeper than that. Because you only preserve the latest instance of feed metadata, if it was up to the client of the API to examine the feed author, and manually inherit it every time it wanted to display the author of the entry, then the entry would inherit the wrong authors if the feed author had been changed since the entry was polled. Eg: feed producing code may put atom:author only on the feed unless there are multiple entries in the feed with different authors when it would add it to the entries too. Basically you can't require the client of the API (eg IE7) to perform the inheritance, because they need to inherit the author from the feed document as it was when the entry appeared in it, not as it is now. The solution, I expect, is to copy any elements that should inherit down into the entry during the normalisation process. That way the display of Tim's feed gets fixed, clients don't need to worry about inheritance, and author and rights attributions of old entries don't get mangled by future modifications to the feed document. Ideally you should perform inheritance from atom:source too, as described in the RFC. > The areas that are currently untested, and potentially a point of > concern (that I can think of off the top of my head, anyway) > =C2=A0 > * undefinedContent of element atom:category I think it is perfectly reasonable to discard "undefined content" (such as namespaced attributes on Atom elements). If you want an extension, use an extension element. If you want to sprinkle attributes everywhere in the assumption that implementations are going to preserve whatever document you pass to them verbatim - well, don't be too disappointed. > * any extended usage of xml:base and xml:lang Proper preservation of these two is essential. In particular the baseURI for each feed needs to be preserved after resolving it relative to the document URI (and Content-Location if you're after extra credit); the baseURI for each entry needs to be preserved after resolving it relative to the baseURI for the feed. The baseURI for entries needs to be stored independently of the feed metadata, otherwise redirecting the feed, or changing its base, will retroactively break the baseURIs of older entries. > atom:published atom:published isn't preserved as an exact copy. It is converted to an RSS style date (with the time as-is, and the timezone set to GMT even if it wasn't). > Overall it seems to me the MS/RSS team has done a pretty fantastic > job of ensuring=C2=A0a fairly high quality conversion, making exact > copies of those elements and their associated attributes that did > not allow for a clean conversion to the MS/RSS format=C2=A0and still > maintain=C2=A0any hope whatsoever of making the round trip back to its > original Atom format. Here here! With all of the high-profile coverage of RSS in the publicity, I was expecting Atom to be either neglected, or supported with much lower fidelity than it is now. Most of the data-loss problems are minor (and therefore easy to fix :). The serious problems are with inheritance (xml:base, xml:lang, atom:author, and atom:rights). --=20 Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 22 09:17:50 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FM49m-00078w-Lk for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 09:17:50 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FM49j-0001G4-Ot for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 09:17:50 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2MDxaPv031095; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 06:59:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2MDxawu031094; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 06:59:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.196]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2MDxZ5Q031088 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 06:59:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from xmlhacker@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 18so250131nzp for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 05:59:34 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=NjOdVrP1eEapGE9fSjHgbPdqGhuLiTXBmIM3Xwewyh8fY2Zn+JeCVKymu3e4knGRz4TlDnRe36DWdpw88PVTH6Sb+BwZSmdG9LptNwhDqAAt5DLCqLwADsCAEIk76VWZNf1wZ1xDdaAyCNmkWQelk0aXo8khvQFRg2Fk4IJ1mx8= Received: by 10.65.253.4 with SMTP id f4mr632848qbs; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 05:59:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.215.9 with HTTP; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 05:59:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 06:59:30 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "David Powell" Subject: Re: Latest IE7 release 'AtomicRSS' output comparison results Cc: "Atom Syntax" , "Sean Lyndersay" In-Reply-To: <143448881.20060322131154@djpowell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2130_26340192.1143035970179" References: <143448881.20060322131154@djpowell.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e178fd6cb61ffb6940cd878e7fea8606 ------=_Part_2130_26340192.1143035970179 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline SGV5IERhdmlkLAoKV293ISBUaGlzIGlzIHJlYWxseSBjb29sIDopCgpTaW5jZSB5b3UgaGF2ZSBv YnZpb3VzbHkgZ29uZSB0byBncmVhdCBlZmZvcnQgdG8gYm90aCB0ZXN0IGFuZCBleHRyYWN0IHRo aXMKaW5mbywgSSB3aWxsIHRha2UgdGhlIHRpbWUgdG8gYWRkIHRoZXNlIGFzIHRpY2tldHMgaW50 byB0aGUgVHJhYyBkYXRhYmFzZS4KRm9yIG5vdyBJIGhhdmUgYWRkZWQgdGhyZWUgY2F0ZWdvcmll 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David Peterson" To: "David Powell" Subject: Re: Latest IE7 release 'AtomicRSS' output comparison results Cc: "Atom Syntax" , "Sean Lyndersay" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3419_12681588.1143039814931" References: <143448881.20060322131154@djpowell.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 73734d43604d52d23b3eba644a169745 ------=_Part_3419_12681588.1143039814931 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline Pgo+IEknbGwgZ2V0IHN0YXJ0ZWQgb24gdGhpcyBub3cuCj4KPiBUaGFua3MgYWdhaW4hCj4KCk9r YXksIHRoZXNlIGFyZSBhbGwgZW50ZXJlZCA+IGh0dHA6Ly90cmFjLnVuZGVyc3RhbmRpbmdhdG9t LmNvbS9yZXBvcnQvMQoKVGhhbmtzIGZvciBzbmFnZ2luZyBhbGwgb2YgdGhlc2UgRGF2aWQhICBQ bGVhc2UgZmVlbCBmcmVlIHRvIG1ha2UKdXBkYXRlcy9jaGFuZ2VzIGFzIHlvdSBzZWUgZml0LCBv ciBhbnkgb2YgdGhlIHJlc3Qgb2YgeW91IGp1c3QgdGhlIHNhbWUuLi4KQXQgdGhpcyBzdGFnZSBJ IHRoaW5rIGl0IHNlZW1zIGFwcHJvcHJpYXRlIHRvIGNoYXQgd2l0aCB0aGUgWE1MLU1WUCdzIGFu ZApnZXQgdGhlbSBpbnZvbHZlZCB3aXRoIHRoaXMgcHJvY2VzcyBzdWNoIHRoYXQgbW9yZSBjYW4g YmUgYWNjb21wbGlzaGVkIHZpYQp0aGUgcHJvcGVyLCBsZWdhbGx5LWJsZXNzZWQgY2hhbm5lbHMu ICBJIHdpbGwgc3RhcnQgdGhhdCBwcm9jZXNzIG1vdmluZwpmb3J3YXJkIHRvZGF5LgoKSSB3aWxs IGNvbnRpbnVlIHVwZGF0aW5nIHRoZSB3aWtpIGludGVyZmFjZSBhcyB3ZWxsIGFzIHRoZSB0aWNr ZXRzCnRoZW1zZWx2ZXMuICBJZiBzb21ldGhpbmcgc2VlbXMgc2lnbmlmaWNhbnQgZW5vdWdoIHRv IGJyb2FkY2FzdCB0byB0aGUgbGlzdAppbiBnZW5lcmFsLCBJIHdpbGwgbWFrZSBzdXJlIGFuZCBk byB0aGlzLiAgT3RoZXJ3aXNlIHRoZSBmb2xsb3dpbmcgbGlua3MKd2lsbCBnYWluIHlvdSBhY2Nl c3MgdG8gdGhlIHZhcmlvdXMgd2ViIGZlZWRzOgoKTk9URTogdW5mb3J0dW5hdGVseSwgYXQgcHJl c2VudCB0aW1lLCBUcmFjIGRvZXNuJ3Qgc2VlbSB0byBzdXBwb3J0IEF0b20gLS0gSQpoYXZlbid0 IG5vdGljZWQgYW55IHBsdWdpbnMsIGJ1dCBpZiBhbnlib2R5IGtub3dzIG9mIG9uZSwgY2FuIHlv dSBsZXQgbWUKa25vdyBzbyB3ZSBjYW4gdXRpbGl6ZSB0aGUgZm9ybWF0IHdlIGFsbCBvYnZpb3Vz bHkgcHJlZmVyLiAgSWYgdGltZSBhbGxvd3MsCkkgd2lsbCBhdHRlbXB0IHRvIHN0YXJ0IHRhcHBp bmcgaW50byBteSBkZXZlbG9waW5nIFB5dGhvbiBza2lsbHMgYW5kIGRldmVsb3AKdGhlIG1vZHVs ZSBmb3IgdGhpcyAtLSBhbHRob3VnaCB3YWl0Li4uICBuZXZlcm1pbmQuLi4gSSB3aWxsIGp1c3Qg Y3JlYXRlIGEKdHJhbnNmb3JtYXRpb24gZmlsZSBhbmQgY29udmVydCB0aGUgUlNTIDIuMCBmb3Jt YXQgaW50byBhbiBhdG9tIGZvcm1hdCwKcG9zdGluZyB0aGUgbGluayB0byB0aGUgdHJhbnNmb3Jt YXRpb24gcHJvY2VzcyBvbiB0aGUgd2lraSB3aGVuIGl0cyByZWFkeS4KCkFjdGl2ZSBUaWNrZXRz IDoKaHR0cDovL3RyYWMudW5kZXJzdGFuZGluZ2F0b20uY29tL3JlcG9ydC8xP2Zvcm1hdD1yc3Mm VVNFUj1tLmRhdmlkCldpa2k6UmVjZW50Q2hhbmdlcyA6IGh0dHA6Ly90cmFjLnVuZGVyc3RhbmRp bmdhdG9tLmNvbS93aWtpL1JlY2VudENoYW5nZXMKVGltZWxpbmUgKGNvbGxlY3Rpb24gb2YgZXZl cnl0aGluZyBpbnRvIG9uZSBmZWVkKSA6Cmh0dHA6Ly90cmFjLnVuZGVyc3RhbmRpbmdhdG9tLmNv bS90aW1lbGluZT9taWxlc3RvbmU9b24mdGlja2V0PW9uJmNoYW5nZXNldD1vbiZ3aWtpPW9uJm1h eD01MCZkYXlzYmFjaz05MCZmb3JtYXQ9cnNzCgpFbmpveSB5b3VyIGRheSA6KQotLQo8TTpELz4K Ck0uIERhdmlkIFBldGVyc29uCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cueHNsdGJsb2cuY29tLwo= ------=_Part_3419_12681588.1143039814931 Content-Type: text/html; 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David Peterson" To: "David Powell" Subject: Re: Latest IE7 release 'AtomicRSS' output comparison results Cc: "Atom Syntax" , "Sean Lyndersay" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2254_28117497.1143036245568" References: <143448881.20060322131154@djpowell.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d11a451997816a91a305dcb5ab1b85dd ------=_Part_2254_28117497.1143036245568 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline SG1tLi4uIGd1ZXNzIEkgd2FzIGEgYml0IG9mZiBvbiB0aGUgbGlua3MuLi4geW91IG5lZWQgdG8g YmUgbG9nZ2VkIGluIGFzIGFuCmFkbWluIGZvciB0aGUgbGlua3MgdG8gdGFrZSB5b3UgYW55d2hl cmUgdXNlZnVsLCBhbmQgZXZlbiB0aGVuIGl0cyBub3QgdG8Kd2hlcmUgSSBoYWQgaG9wZWQuCgpo dHRwOi8vdHJhYy51bmRlcnN0YW5kaW5nYXRvbS5jb20vbmV3dGlja2V0CgpUaGlzIGxpbmssIGhv 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David Peterson" To: mvp-xml-help@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Consideration for the adoption/integration of an Atom/MS:RSS Web Feed API project Cc: "Sean Lyndersay" , "Atom Syntax" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4703_1473950.1143043137163" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a87a9cdae4ac5d3fbeee75cd0026d632 ------=_Part_4703_1473950.1143043137163 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline SGV5IEZvbGtzLAoKSnVzdCBmaW5pc2hlZCB1cCBhbiBJTSBjb252ZXJzYXRpb24gd2l0aCBEb25Y TUwgYW5kIGhlIHBvaW50ZWQgbWUgdG8gdGhpcwpsaXN0IFNvdXJjZUZvcmdlIGxpc3QgYXMgdGhl IHByb3BlciBlbnRyeSBwb2ludCB0byBiZWdpbiBkaXNjdXNzaW9ucwpyZWdhcmRpbmcgdGhlIHBv dGVudGlhbCBpbnRlZ3JhdGlvbiBvZiBhIHByb2plY3QgdGhhdCBoYXMgYWxyZWFkeSBiZWVuCnN0 YXJ0ZWQgdGhhdCBpcyBmb2N1c2VkIG9uIGJyaW5naW5nIGxheWVyZWQgc3VwcG9ydCBmb3IgdGhl IEF0b20gd2ViIGZlZWQKZm9ybWF0IGludG8gdGhlIE1TIFJTUyBXZWIgRmVlZCBBUEkvUGxhdGZv cm0uCgpUaGlzIGNvbnZlcnNhdGlvbiBvcmlnaW5hdGVkIGFzIHBhcnQgb2YgYSB0aHJlYWQgc3Rh cnRlZCBvbiB0aGUgQXRvbSBzeW50YXgKbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0LCBhbmQgYWZ0ZXIgYSBxdWVyeSBh cyB0byB3aGV0aGVyIG9yIG5vdCB0aGUgWE1MLU1WUCBncm91cCB3b3VsZApiZSB0aGUgcHJvcGVy IGZvbGtzIHRvIHdvcmsgdGhyb3VnaCBpbiByZWdhcmRzIHRvIGJyaW5naW5nIHRoaXMgcHJvamVj dApjbG9zZXIgdG8gdGhlIE1TIG1ldGFsLCBpdCBiZWNhbWUgYXBwYXJlbnQgdGhhdCB5ZXMsIGlu IGZhY3QgdGhlIFhNTC1NVlAncwp3b3VsZCBiZSB0aGUgY29ycmVjdCBhbmQgcHJvcGVyIGF2ZW51 ZSB0byB0YWtlIGluIHRoaXMgcmVnYXJkLgoKQXMgc3VjaCwgaGVyZSBJIGFtIDpEICBIaSBldmVy eW9uZSwgaG93IGFyZSB5YSA6KQoKQSBxdWljayBvdmVydmlldzoKClRoZSBwcm9qZWN0IGlzIGN1 cnJlbnRseSBob3N0ZWQgYXMgcGFydCBvZiBteSBVbmRlcnN0YW5kaW5nQXRvbSZSU1MgcHJvamVj dApbaHR0cDovL3RyYWMudW5kZXJzdGFuZGluZ2F0b20uY29tLzxodHRwOi8vdHJhYy51bmRlcnN0 YW5kaW5nYXRvbS5jb20vd2lraS9BdG9taWNSU1MuTkVUPl0uCklmIGFuZCB3aGVuIHRoZSB0aW1l IHdhcyByaWdodCwgaG93ZXZlciwgSSB3b3VsZCBoYXBwaWx5IGhlbHAgbWFrZSB0aGUKdHJhbnNm ZXIgZnJvbSB0aGUgZXhpc3Rpbmcgc2l0ZSB0byB0aGUgU0YubmV0IFhNTC1NVlAgc2l0ZSBpZiB5 b3UgYWxsIGZlZWwKdGhpcyBpcyBzb21ldGhpbmcgeW91IHdvdWxkIGxpa2UgdG8gYmUgYSBwYXJ0 IG9mLgoKSSBjYW4gYXNzdXJlIHlvdSBhcyBtdWNoIG9mIG15IG93biB0aW1lIGFzIG5lY2Vzc2Fy eSwgYW5kIG15IGd1ZXNzIGlzIHRoYXQKdGhlcmUgYXJlIG90aGVycyBpbiB0aGUgQXRvbSBjb21t dW5pdHkgKGNjJ2Qgb24gdGhpcyB0aHJlYWQpIHdobyB3b3VsZCBhbHNvCmxpa2UgdG8gcGFydGlj aXBhdGUgaWYgdGhpcyB3YXMgc29tZXRoaW5nIHRoYXQgd2FzIGRlZW1lZCBhcHByb3ByaWF0ZSBi eQpib3RoIHRoZSBNVlAgZ3JvdXAgYXMgd2VsbCBhcyB0aGUgTVMgbGVnYWwgY2hhbm5lbHMuICBJ ZiBuZWNjZXNzYXJ5IHRoZQptYWpvcml0eSBvZiB0aGUgZGV2ZWxvcG1lbnQgY291bGQgaGFwcGVu IG91dHNpZGUgb2YgdGhlIE1WUCBncm91cCwgYW5kIGF0IGFuCmFwcHJvcHJpYXRlIHRpbWUsIHRy YW5zZmVyIHRoaXMgdG8gdGhlIE1WUCdzIHRvIGhhbmRsZSBmcm9tIHRoZXJlLgoKSW4gb3RoZXIg d29yZHMsIHdoYXRldmVyIGl0IHRha2VzIHRvIHR1cm4gdGhpcyBpbnRvIGEgcmVhbGl0eSwgaXMg ZXhhY3RseQp3aGF0IHdpbGwgdGFrZSBwbGFjZSAtLSBhdCBsZWFzdCBmcm9tIG15IG93biBwZXJz b25hbCBwZXJzcGVjdGl2ZSwgYW5kIEknbQpndWVzc2luZyBvdGhlcnMgd2lsbCBmaW5kIHRoaXMg dG8gYmUgYSBkZXNpcmFibGUgZm9jdXMgYXMgd2VsbC4gOikKCllvdSBjYW4gYWNjZXNzIHRoZSBw cm9qZWN0cyBlbnRyeSBwYWdlIGhlcmUgPgpodHRwOi8vdHJhYy51bmRlcnN0YW5kaW5nYXRvbS5j b20vd2lraS9BdG9taWNSU1MuTkVUIDwKCkF0b20gc3ludGF4OiBUbyBzdWJzY3JpYmUgdG8gdGhl IFhNTC1NVlAgU0YubmV0IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdCwgcGxlYXNlIHZpc2l0ID4KaHR0cDovL2xpc3Rz LnNvdXJjZWZvcmdlLm5ldC9saXN0cy9saXN0aW5mby9tdnAteG1sLWhlbHAgPAoKVGhhbmtzIGZv bGtzISAgSSBsb29rIGZvcndhcmQgdG8gYW55IGFuZCBhbGwgY29udmVyc2F0aW9ucyByZWdhcmRp bmcgdGhpcwp0b3BpYywgYW5kIGxvb2sgZm9yd2FyZCB0byB0aGUgb3Bwb3J0dW50aWVzIHRoYXQg cG90ZW50aWFsbHkgZXhpc3QgYWhlYWQuIDopCgpCZXN0IHJlZ2FyZHMsCgotLQo8TTpELz4KCk0u IERhdmlkIFBldGVyc29uCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cueHNsdGJsb2cuY29tLwo= ------=_Part_4703_1473950.1143043137163 Content-Type: text/html; 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Wed, 22 Mar 2006 15:48:33 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMAFs-0001RX-JF for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 15:48:33 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2MKZSr3050211; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 13:35:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2MKZSBm050210; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 13:35:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mcom.com (c3po.aoltw.net [64.236.137.25]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2MKZRvJ050203 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 13:35:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jpanzer@aol.net) Received: from JOHNPANZER.ad.aol.aoltw.net (h-10-169-155-222.nscp.aoltw.net [10.169.155.222]) by mcom.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id k2MKZ8R14953 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 12:35:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 12:35:08 -0800 From: "John Panzer" Subject: Licencing and feeds To: atom-syntax Message-ID: <4421B4FC.9030005@aol.net> X-Mailer: AOL Communicator (20030919.3 Win) Organization: AOL MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/HTML; CHARSET=us-ascii Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 All -- I'm starting a discussion about feed licencing which might be of interest to members of this mailing list, and which will hopefully help form the technical extensions that AOL uses to deal with feed licencing.  I'd welcome any input that this group may have.  Directly relevant to this list, I'm tentatively advocating adopting James Snell's RelLicense extension for Atom, and looking for equivalent mechanisms for RSS.

Link:

http://journals.aol.com/panzerjohn/abstractioneer/entries/1281

Thanks,
--
John Panzer
System Architect
http://journals.aol.com/panzerjohn/abstractioneer
 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 22 16:14:29 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMAez-0007fR-B9 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 16:14:29 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMAex-00039p-ND for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 16:14:29 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2ML1XFv051027; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 14:01:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2ML1Xg0051026; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 14:01:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail5.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail5.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.7]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2ML1W7u051020 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 14:01:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from elharo@metalab.unc.edu) Received: (qmail 5289 invoked from network); 22 Mar 2006 21:01:30 -0000 Received: from dsl254-067-087.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO [192.168.254.100]) (elharo@[216.254.67.87]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 22 Mar 2006 21:01:30 -0000 Message-ID: <4421BB29.1020608@metalab.unc.edu> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 16:01:29 -0500 From: Elliotte Harold User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Macintosh/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Panzer CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Licencing and feeds References: <4421B4FC.9030005@aol.net> In-Reply-To: <4421B4FC.9030005@aol.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2ML1XFv051027 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 John Panzer wrote: > All -- I'm starting a discussion about feed licencing which might be of= =20 > interest to members of this mailing list, and which will hopefully help= =20 > form the technical extensions that AOL uses to deal with feed=20 > licencing. I'd welcome any input that this group may have. Directly=20 > relevant to this list, I'm tentatively advocating adopting James Snell'= s=20 > RelLicense extension for Atom, and looking for equivalent mechanisms fo= r=20 > RSS. >=20 > Link: >=20 > http://journals.aol.com/panzerjohn/abstractioneer/entries/1281 >=20 Thank you! This is a very important discussion. I'm very glad to see AOL=20 thinking about this. I'd love to comment on it. (Yes there are a few=20 things you're missing to answer one of your questions.) But perhaps such an important discussion should happen somewhere that=20 doesn't require annoying registration and pages of AOL legalese just to=20 comment? As is I'll probably just put my comments up on my own blog and=20 link to it from there. --=20 =EF=BB=BFElliotte Rusty Harold elharo@metalab.unc.edu XML in a Nutshell 3rd Edition Just Published! http://www.cafeconleche.org/books/xian3/ http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=3D0596007647/cafeaulaitA/ref=3Dnos= im From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 22 16:41:45 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMB5N-0002Ko-Kw for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 16:41:45 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMB5M-0004BT-8T for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 16:41:45 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2MLPsbE052043; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 14:25:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2MLPsw2052042; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 14:25:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mcom.com (c3po.aoltw.net [64.236.137.25]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2MLPrvD052035 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 14:25:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jpanzer@aol.net) Received: from [10.169.241.143] (sera-10-169-186-63.nscp.aoltw.net [10.169.186.63]) by mcom.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id k2MLPfR18068; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 13:25:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4421C0DF.1000004@aol.net> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 13:25:51 -0800 From: John Panzer User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Macintosh/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Elliotte Harold CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Licencing and feeds References: <4421B4FC.9030005@aol.net> <4421BB29.1020608@metalab.unc.edu> In-Reply-To: <4421BB29.1020608@metalab.unc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Elliotte Harold wrote: > > John Panzer wrote: > >> All -- I'm starting a discussion about feed licencing which might be >> of interest to members of this mailing list, and which will hopefully >> help form the technical extensions that AOL uses to deal with feed >> licencing. I'd welcome any input that this group may have. Directly >> relevant to this list, I'm tentatively advocating adopting James >> Snell's RelLicense extension for Atom, and looking for equivalent >> mechanisms for RSS. >> >> Link: >> >> http://journals.aol.com/panzerjohn/abstractioneer/entries/1281 >> > > Thank you! This is a very important discussion. I'm very glad to see > AOL thinking about this. I'd love to comment on it. (Yes there are a > few things you're missing to answer one of your questions.) > > But perhaps such an important discussion should happen somewhere that > doesn't require annoying registration and pages of AOL legalese just > to comment? As is I'll probably just put my comments up on my own blog > and link to it from there. > I think that's fine and appropriate, personally. I've also tagged my post with Feed+Copyright and perhaps we can use that globally to help ensure posts get caught: the tag page already yields relevant posts at Technorati. -- John Panzer System Architect, AOL http://abstractioneer.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 11:29:45 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMSgz-0000SB-LQ for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:29:45 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMSgx-00029r-Sh for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:29:45 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NGETd8098792; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:14:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2NGETMZ098791; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:14:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc2-s27.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc2-s27.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.163]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NGESl5098783 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:14:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.54.246.190]) by bay0-omc2-s27.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 23 Mar 2006 08:13:39 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 08:13:39 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.111.113 by BAY106-DAV2.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 16:13:38 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.111.113] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" Subject: text/html with mode="xml" in Atom 0.3 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:13:33 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Mar 2006 16:13:39.0037 (UTC) FILETIME=[BED4A0D0:01C64E94] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 4.9 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 I've been seeing a number of feeds recently using Atom 0.3 with a content type of "text/html" and no mode attribute (i.e. the equivalent of mode="xml"). However, the markup in that content is wrapped in a CDATA section, for example something like this:

Content goes here.

]]> If it had been marked as "escaped" you would obviously unescape the CDATA before interpreting the markup. However, since the mode is technically "xml", I was under the impression that it should be treated as inline XML and no unescaping was necessary. But that would result in the literal text "

Content goes here

" being displayed to the user which is obviously not what is intended. So is this a bug in the content generator (all the feeds I've seen appear to be using TypePad) or are you supposed to ignore the mode attribute when the content type is set to "text/html" and always treat it as escaped? I know Atom 0.3 is deprecated and I shouldn't be having to deal with this, but the reality of the situation is that there are a whole lot of Atom 0.3 feeds still out there (probably more than Atom 1.0) and I need to be able to support them. Some feeds where you can see the problem (not all entries though): http://feeds.feedburner.com/Flickrblog http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilbert_blog/atom.xml http://blog.cymfony.com/atom.xml Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 11:29:48 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMSh2-0000TP-SC for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:29:48 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMSgx-00029p-Sh for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:29:48 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NGGrcw098874; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:16:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2NGGrgd098873; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:16:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.11]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k2NGGpbk098835 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:16:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.118] ([203.30.247.118] verified) by ironclad.net.au (Stalker SMTP Server 1.7) with ESMTP id S.0001899493 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 03:16:28 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 03:16:18 +1100 Subject: atom:name ... text or html? From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id k2NGGrbk098868 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2NGGrcw098874 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 If I have an author with the name "Bertrand Caf=E9", is it acceptable to = put that into atom:author like this; or should I be using the unicode numeric entity instead? e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 11:32:51 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMSjz-0006Vm-Ds for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:32:51 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMSjx-0002Hc-1I for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:32:51 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NGLcBt099040; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:21:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2NGLcj0099039; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:21:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from server02.deinternetman.nl (hosted.by.deinternetman.nl [83.98.145.60] (may be forged)) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NGLa1Z099032 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:21:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from fora@annevankesteren.nl) Received: (qmail 32360 invoked from network); 23 Mar 2006 17:21:38 +0100 Received: from localhost.deinternetman.net (HELO localhost) (127.0.0.1) by localhost.deinternetman.net with SMTP; 23 Mar 2006 17:21:38 +0100 Received: from pat-tdc.opera.com (pat-tdc.opera.com [213.236.208.22]) by webmail.annevankesteren.nl (Horde MIME library) with HTTP; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:21:38 +0100 Message-ID: <20060323172138.gzb5de8jdisc8ggk@webmail.annevankesteren.nl> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:21:38 +0100 From: Anne van Kesteren To: Eric Scheid Cc: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: atom:name ... text or html? References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.0.3) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id k2NGLb1Z099034 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2NGLcBt099040 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Quoting Eric Scheid : > If I have an author with the name "Bertrand Caf=C3=A9", is it acceptabl= e to put > that into atom:author like this; > > > > or should I be using the unicode numeric entity instead? Even if it was "HTML" you couldn't really use the entity, could you? I=20 think you have to use a character reference or the actual character instead, yes. --=20 Anne van Kesteren From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 11:49:37 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMT0D-0005vJ-S3 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:49:37 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMT0C-0002oq-Aq for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:49:37 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NGaooe099708; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:36:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2NGaocO099707; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:36:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pproxy.gmail.com (pproxy.gmail.com [64.233.166.180]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NGan7R099701 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:36:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by pproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id m51so378264pye for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 08:36:49 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=dx3U0710r+Ocs2zrWIoRphdklq2vRvRggIkmUPDRElqpbSGbtYv7LLdYjZ0LKJ+wE9AVETeCGjDiAQV4SxZ5I6HbMq9wU7pM2uRXDc/QC4/1lwV6URsC8jLlVpnY2NBqFCFt2nkRlFq8ol6DHC8EdgUo6/TDV7cboNFTAW0sl3s= Received: by 10.64.199.5 with SMTP id w5mr397372qbf; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 08:36:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.101? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e13sm648848qba.2006.03.23.08.36.47; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 08:36:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4422CE9D.8050008@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 08:36:45 -0800 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: atom:name ... text or html? References: <20060323172138.gzb5de8jdisc8ggk@webmail.annevankesteren.nl> In-Reply-To: <20060323172138.gzb5de8jdisc8ggk@webmail.annevankesteren.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2NGaooe099708 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 +1 to what Anne says. If I received that Atom author name, I would display it exactly as presented "Bertrand Café" - James Anne van Kesteren wrote: >=20 > Quoting Eric Scheid : >> If I have an author with the name "Bertrand Caf=C3=A9", is it acceptab= le to >> put >> that into atom:author like this; >> >> >> >> or should I be using the unicode numeric entity instead? >=20 > Even if it was "HTML" you couldn't really use the entity, could you? I > think you > have to use a character reference or the actual character instead, yes. >=20 >=20 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 11:59:06 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMT9O-0007YQ-TD for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:59:06 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMT9N-0003Qw-I0 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:59:06 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NGmitO000434; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:48:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2NGmiau000433; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:48:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav21.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.93]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NGmhP7000427 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:48:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 08:48:43 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.111.113 by BAY106-DAV21.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 16:48:40 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.111.113] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: Subject: Re: atom:name ... text or html? Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:48:36 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Mar 2006 16:48:43.0653 (UTC) FILETIME=[A5478B50:01C64E99] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2NGmitO000434 X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Hahaha! It's RSS all over again. In the words of Mark Pilgrim: "Here's=20 something that might be HTML. Or maybe not. I can't tell you, and you can= 't=20 guess." :-) Seriously though, the atom:name element is described as "a human-readable= =20 name", so unless your name really is "Betrand Caf&eacture;" that can't be= =20 right. If RFC4287 had intended to allow markup in the element it would ha= ve=20 used atomTextConstruct. Regards James Eric Scheid wrote: > If I have an author with the name "Bertrand Caf=E9", is it acceptable t= o put > that into atom:author like this; > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 12:12:05 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMTLx-0001lv-86 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:12:05 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMTLv-0004Fa-MX for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:12:05 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NGvG5C000666; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:57:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2NGvGcS000665; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:57:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.11]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k2NGvDXm000658 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:57:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.118] ([203.30.247.118] verified) by ironclad.net.au (Stalker SMTP Server 1.7) with ESMTP id S.0001899693 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 03:57:21 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 03:57:11 +1100 Subject: Re: atom:name ... text or html? From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20060323172138.gzb5de8jdisc8ggk@webmail.annevankesteren.nl> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f On 24/3/06 3:21 AM, "Anne van Kesteren" wrote: >> >> > Even if it was "HTML" you couldn't really use the entity, could you? I think > you have to use a character reference or the actual character instead, yes. > It's true that XML has only a half dozen or so entities defined, meaning most interesting entities from html can't exist in XML ... unless maybe they are wrapped like in CDATA block like above? I'm getting the data by scraping an html page, so I'm expecting it to be acceptable html code, including html entities. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 12:12:14 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMTM6-0001t0-6i for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:12:14 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMTM4-0004Fj-Dk for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:12:14 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NH1Kbm000901; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:01:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2NH1KDa000900; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:01:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k2NH1IOa000885 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:01:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 23 Mar 2006 17:01:13 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-220-207.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.220.207] by mail.gmx.net (mp030) with SMTP; 23 Mar 2006 18:01:13 +0100 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:01:12 +0100 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: atom:name ... text or html? Message-ID: <20060323170112.GL29103@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2NH1Kbm000901 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 * Eric Scheid [2006-03-23 17:30]: >If I have an author with the name "Bertrand Caf=C3=A9", is it >acceptable to put that into atom:author like this; > > No. That means the author=E2=80=99s name is Bertrand Café (he must have had very cruel parents), not Bertrand Caf=C3=A9. >or should I be using the unicode numeric entity instead? Yes. Or use a literal =C3=A9 as you did in this mail, provided you emit the feed as UTF-8 (or ISO-8859-1, if you must). Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 12:14:16 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMTO4-0003AI-6G for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:14:16 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMTO2-0004LX-Po for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:14:16 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NGvljX000707; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:57:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2NGvleo000706; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:57:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k2NGvjEb000691 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:57:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 23 Mar 2006 16:57:40 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-220-207.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.220.207] by mail.gmx.net (mp036) with SMTP; 23 Mar 2006 17:57:40 +0100 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:57:39 +0100 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: text/html with mode="xml" in Atom 0.3 Message-ID: <20060323165739.GK29103@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 * James Holderness [2006-03-23 17:30]: >So is this a bug in the content generator (all the feeds I've >seen appear to be using TypePad) Yes. >or are you supposed to ignore the mode attribute when the >content type is set to "text/html" and always treat it as >escaped? No. In 0.3, the `mode` attribute was the final arbiter for the form of the content. In Atom 1.0, its role was subsumed by switching on the `type` value because consumer developers reported that this sort of layering was unnecessarily hard to support and provided no discernible benefit. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 12:16:10 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMTPu-0004PS-I6 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:16:10 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMTPt-0004RR-7h for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:16:10 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NH1D1V000887; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:01:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2NH1DOS000886; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:01:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from linux.site (host-87-74-9-97.bulldogdsl.com [87.74.9.97]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NH1C1r000879 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:01:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from sh@defuze.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by linux.site (Postfix) with ESMTP id B44E3CCF2; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:01:03 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4422C63F.3010303@defuze.org> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:01:03 +0100 From: Sylvain Hellegouarch Reply-To: sh@defuze.org User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Holderness CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: atom:name ... text or html? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 > > Seriously though, the atom:name element is described as "a > human-readable name", Do you mean that "human-readable" is equivalent to solely English? Because as a French, having accents in names is so natural that I see it as "human readable" too ;) - Sylvain From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 12:31:23 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMTed-0000LT-EI for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:31:23 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMTc4-0004wy-BN for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:28:47 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NH3Stq000980; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:03:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2NH3SY7000979; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:03:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx2.nic.fr (mx2.nic.fr [192.134.4.11]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NH3RXk000972 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:03:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from bortzmeyer@nic.fr) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A34A26C12A; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:03:26 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE5DA26C146; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:03:23 +0100 (CET) Received: from batilda.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id C579C58EB7A; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:03:23 +0100 (CET) Received: by batilda.nic.fr (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BAEFB16AAFC; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:03:23 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:03:23 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Eric Scheid Cc: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: atom:name ... text or html? Message-ID: <20060323170323.GA3747@nic.fr> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 3.1 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.8-2-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mx2.nic.fr Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad On Fri, Mar 24, 2006 at 03:16:18AM +1100, Eric Scheid wrote a message of 10 lines which said: > or should I be using the unicode numeric entity instead? Or the character itself, in UTF-8 or any other encoding (but UTF-8 is the most widely implemented, so you limit the risks). (That's what I do with http://www.bortzmeyer.org/feed.atom and it seems OK in every agregator and it validates.) From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 12:32:05 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMTeg-0000LT-KQ for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:31:26 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMTVs-0004he-1w for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:22:21 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NHBSkF001241; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:11:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2NHBSjt001240; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:11:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav11.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.83]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NHBReb001234 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:11:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:11:27 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.111.113 by BAY106-DAV11.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:11:25 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.111.113] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: <4422C63F.3010303@defuze.org> Subject: Re: atom:name ... text or html? Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 19:11:21 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Mar 2006 17:11:27.0117 (UTC) FILETIME=[D1F7A3D0:01C64E9C] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote: > Do you mean that "human-readable" is equivalent to solely English? Because > as a French, having accents in names is so natural that I see it as "human > readable" too ;) No. I mean that the literal sequence of characters "& e a c u t e ;" is not human-readable (or at least isn't intended to be). Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 12:38:26 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMTlS-0006br-Hv for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:38:26 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMTlQ-0005Lo-GF for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:38:26 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NHNY0a001865; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:23:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2NHNYh8001864; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:23:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mta09-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.49]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NHNWGq001857 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:23:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20060323172323.JWH27969.mtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com>; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:23:23 +0000 Received: from cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust17.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([81.111.201.17]) by aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20060323172323.WUOD9667.aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust17.bagu.cable.ntl.com>; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:23:23 +0000 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:23:21 +0000 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.71.03) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1952481932.20060323172321@djpowell.net> To: Eric Scheid CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: atom:name ... text or html? In-Reply-To: References: <20060323172138.gzb5de8jdisc8ggk@webmail.annevankesteren.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Thursday, March 23, 2006, 4:57:11 PM, you wrote: > On 24/3/06 3:21 AM, "Anne van Kesteren" wrote: >>> >>> >> Even if it was "HTML" you couldn't really use the entity, could you? I think >> you have to use a character reference or the actual character instead, yes. >> > It's true that XML has only a half dozen or so entities defined, meaning > most interesting entities from html can't exist in XML ... unless maybe they > are wrapped like in CDATA block like above? atom:name is not intended to contain HTML, the spec for it doesn't mention HTML, it is no more correct to put HTML in it, than it is to put base64'd PDF in there. > I'm getting the data by scraping an html page, so I'm expecting it to be > acceptable html code, including html entities. Your HTML parser should decode the entities for you and return a string. Your Atom generator should encode or escape the string using numeric entities. If you really need to use HTML entities directly, then you could put: ]> at the top of your feed and get rid of that CDATA. XML processors are REQUIRED [1] to process internal DTD subsets. [Hmm, internal DTD subsets completely fail in IE7's feed reader, throwing up a "friendly error message"] [1] -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 12:43:14 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMTq6-0002l4-H3 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:43:14 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMTq5-0005Qu-4l for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:43:14 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NHSrVt002063; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:28:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2NHSrhY002062; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:28:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx2.nic.fr (mx2.nic.fr [192.134.4.11]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NHSqG8002056 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:28:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from bortzmeyer@nic.fr) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2FAB26C12A; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:28:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8404B26C146; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:28:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from batilda.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6973558EB7C; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:28:50 +0100 (CET) Received: by batilda.nic.fr (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5F5FA16AAFC; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:28:50 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:28:50 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Sylvain Hellegouarch Cc: James Holderness , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: atom:name ... text or html? Message-ID: <20060323172850.GA6421@nic.fr> References: <4422C63F.3010303@defuze.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4422C63F.3010303@defuze.org> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 3.1 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.8-2-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mx2.nic.fr Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 On Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 05:01:03PM +0100, Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote a message of 11 lines which said: > Because as a French, having accents in names is so natural that I > see it as "human readable" too ;) As I wrote and used and tested on my blog, there is no problem in Atom to have a first name with accent like mine. Atom is XML and therefore Unicode rules. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 12:43:54 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMTqk-0003Nw-Kt for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:43:54 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMTqj-0005RR-4m for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:43:54 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NHTtUn002126; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:29:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2NHTtg4002125; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:29:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav9.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.81]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NHTsEe002117 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:29:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:29:53 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.111.113 by BAY106-DAV9.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:29:51 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.111.113] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: <20060323165739.GK29103@klangraum> Subject: Re: text/html with mode="xml" in Atom 0.3 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 19:29:46 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Mar 2006 17:29:53.0514 (UTC) FILETIME=[656E6CA0:01C64E9F] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 A. Pagaltzis wrote: >>So is this a bug in the content generator (all the feeds I've >>seen appear to be using TypePad) > > Yes. > >>or are you supposed to ignore the mode attribute when the >>content type is set to "text/html" and always treat it as >>escaped? > > No. Thanks for the confirmation. I was beginning to think I was wrong. I tested this in 15 different aggregators and all but one ignored the mode and unescaped the content anyway. I have a horrible feeling I'm going to have to add code to emulate this behaviour. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 12:52:12 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMTym-00071l-Ur for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:52:12 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMTyl-0005ef-EA for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:52:12 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NHgDDU002740; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:42:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2NHgDJX002739; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:42:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k2NHgBkF002724 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:42:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 23 Mar 2006 17:42:06 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-220-207.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.220.207] by mail.gmx.net (mp031) with SMTP; 23 Mar 2006 18:42:06 +0100 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:42:05 +0100 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: atom:name ... text or html? Message-ID: <20060323174205.GO29103@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <20060323172138.gzb5de8jdisc8ggk@webmail.annevankesteren.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 * Eric Scheid [2006-03-23 18:05]: >It's true that XML has only a half dozen or so entities defined, >meaning most interesting entities from html can't exist in XML >... unless maybe they are wrapped like in CDATA block like >above? No, a CDATA block simply means that characters like <, & and > stand for themselves. >I'm getting the data by scraping an html page, so I'm expecting >it to be acceptable html code, including html entities. Then decode the entities to a Unicode string and emit the feed as Unicode. Simplest thing that will work reliably. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 12:57:53 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMU4G-00054O-Qw for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:57:52 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMU4F-0005nQ-An for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:57:52 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NHdjNG002651; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:39:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2NHdjH4002650; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:39:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k2NHdh6t002644 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:39:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 23 Mar 2006 17:39:37 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-220-207.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.220.207] by mail.gmx.net (mp035) with SMTP; 23 Mar 2006 18:39:37 +0100 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:39:35 +0100 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: atom:name ... text or html? Message-ID: <20060323173935.GN29103@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <4422C63F.3010303@defuze.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4422C63F.3010303@defuze.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2NHdjNG002651 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 * Sylvain Hellegouarch [2006-03-23 18:15]: >Do you mean that "human-readable" is equivalent to solely >English? Because as a French, having accents in names is so >natural that I see it as "human readable" too ;) Even as a French, you probably write =C3=A9, not é. :-) Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 12:59:37 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMU5x-0005ey-QN for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:59:37 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMU5v-0005tM-9E for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:59:37 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NHiQCe002820; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:44:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2NHiQ6l002819; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:44:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net ([63.240.77.81]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NHiPIk002772 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:44:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-177-6-93.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.177.6.93]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <20060323174349011002ramue>; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:43:49 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.3) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: atom:name ... text or html? Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:43:48 -0700 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.3) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 On Mar 23, 2006, at 9:48 AM, James Holderness wrote: > Hahaha! It's RSS all over again. In the words of Mark Pilgrim: > "Here's something that might be HTML. Or maybe not. I can't tell > you, and you can't guess." :-) > > Seriously though, the atom:name element is described as "a human- > readable name", so unless your name really is "Betrand > Caf&eacture;" that can't be right. If RFC4287 had intended to allow > markup in the element it would have used atomTextConstruct. I agree with James here--if we had intended for the name to be able to include markup, we should have used the construct we created to allow that. This from RFC 4287 (section 3.2): element atom:name { text } would have been this: element atom:name { atomTextConstruct } if we had intended for it to be able to contain anything but literal text after XML un-escaping, right? On Mar 23, 2006, at 9:57 AM, Eric Scheid wrote: > It's true that XML has only a half dozen or so entities defined, > meaning > most interesting entities from html can't exist in XML ... unless > maybe they > are wrapped like in CDATA block like above? If they're wrapped in a CDATA block, then they don't trigger an XML parsing error, but wrapping something in CDATA isn't a license to enter data in a format other than what the RFC allows. > I'm getting the data by scraping an html page, so I'm expecting it > to be > acceptable html code, including html entities. You, the producer, are getting the data from an HTML page, so you should certainly be prepared to handle HTML entities in it. But you the Atom publisher are responsible for making sure that you've made any changes to the data that are necessary for it to be proper Atom before you publish it. The consumer of the Atom feed doesn't know where you got the data, and thus can't be expected to decide how to process it based on where you got it. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 13:01:35 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMU7q-0001Ca-Vj for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:01:34 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMU7p-00060K-Iv for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:01:34 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NHlaqu002927; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:47:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2NHlarZ002926; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:47:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k2NHlYI5002915 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:47:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 23 Mar 2006 17:47:29 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-220-207.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.220.207] by mail.gmx.net (mp035) with SMTP; 23 Mar 2006 18:47:29 +0100 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:47:26 +0100 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: text/html with mode="xml" in Atom 0.3 Message-ID: <20060323174726.GP29103@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <20060323165739.GK29103@klangraum> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2NHlaqu002927 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 * James Holderness [2006-03-23 18:40]: >I tested this in 15 different aggregators and all but one >ignored the mode and unescaped the content anyway. Good thing this rule was changed in Atom 1.0, then=E2=80=A6 What I really don=E2=80=99t get is what that `xmlns` attribute is doing there in the CDATA block of your data sample. Sometimes I wonder if CDATA should not have been left out of the XML spec; it seems to create far too much confusion to be worthwhile. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 13:10:54 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMUGs-0005Yo-R6 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:10:54 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMUGr-0006KO-G2 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:10:54 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NHvje4003284; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:57:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2NHvjQK003283; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:57:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav3.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.75]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NHvifC003271 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:57:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:57:40 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.111.113 by BAY106-DAV3.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:57:39 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.111.113] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: <20060323172138.gzb5de8jdisc8ggk@webmail.annevankesteren.nl> <1952481932.20060323172321@djpowell.net> Subject: Re: atom:name ... text or html? Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 19:57:35 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Mar 2006 17:57:40.0946 (UTC) FILETIME=[474C5B20:01C64EA3] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad David Powell wrote: > [Hmm, internal DTD subsets completely fail in IE7's feed reader, > throwing up a "friendly error message"] If I remember correctly they considered that a feature. Something to do with DTDs being a security risk. I'm not sure if this also meant they were incapable of processing Netscape RSS 0.91 feeds. All I know is that if I ever have a blog, I'll be sure to include a DTD at the top of my feed. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 13:13:24 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMUJI-0001rK-QP for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:13:24 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMUJH-0006SF-EX for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:13:24 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NI3aFX003549; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:03:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2NI3a76003548; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:03:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mta08-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.48]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NI3YQ2003533 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:03:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20060323180329.YYHF29040.mtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com> for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:03:29 +0000 Received: from cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust17.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([81.111.201.17]) by aamtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20060323180329.WYNE7448.aamtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust17.bagu.cable.ntl.com> for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:03:29 +0000 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:03:26 +0000 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.71.03) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <974993307.20060323180326@djpowell.net> To: Atom Syntax Subject: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 xml:base applies to type="xhtml" content, but I'm not sure whether it is supposed to apply to escaped type="html" content? I reckon that it does. Anybody came across this? Any opinions? -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 13:17:58 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMUNi-0005Fh-5W for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:17:58 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMUNg-0006es-QT for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:17:58 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NI6ROZ003641; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:06:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2NI6RF8003640; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:06:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav3.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.75]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NI6QoR003632 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:06:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:06:21 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.111.113 by BAY106-DAV3.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:06:17 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.111.113] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: <20060323165739.GK29103@klangraum> <20060323174726.GP29103@klangraum> Subject: Re: text/html with mode="xml" in Atom 0.3 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 20:06:11 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Mar 2006 18:06:21.0749 (UTC) FILETIME=[7DB89650:01C64EA4] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2NI6ROZ003641 X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab A. Pagaltzis wrote: > What I really don=E2=80=99t get is what that `xmlns` attribute is doing > there in the CDATA block of your data sample. Sometimes I wonder > if CDATA should not have been left out of the XML spec; it seems > to create far too much confusion to be worthwhile. Well if you look at some of those feeds I listed, many of the entries are= =20 type=3D"application/xhtml+xml" with a namespaced div element as you would= =20 expect. It looks like they may have taken the exact same code (or templat= e,=20 or however it is they do this stuff) and reused it for type=3D"text/html"= .=20 Only with the html they decided they should wrap everything in a CDATA bl= ock=20 just to be safe. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 13:23:46 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMUTK-0000ZV-NQ for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:23:46 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMUTJ-0006zT-6x for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:23:46 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NIE4oD003983; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:14:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2NIE4pl003982; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:14:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NIE0lb003976 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:14:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from fe-amer-03.sun.com ([192.18.108.177]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k2NIE08u013405 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:14:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0IWL00I01E561G00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:14:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.204.157]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0IWL001JBELX4KS2@mail-amer.sun.com>; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:14:00 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:14:12 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: atom:name ... text or html? In-reply-to: <4422C63F.3010303@defuze.org> To: sh@defuze.org Cc: James Holderness , Atom Syntax Message-id: <60B6A307-5B86-4815-A3DB-416930BEC4D5@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.3) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <4422C63F.3010303@defuze.org> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c On Mar 23, 2006, at 8:01 AM, Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote: > > >> >> Seriously though, the atom:name element is described as "a human- >> readable name", > Do you mean that "human-readable" is equivalent to solely English? > Because as a French, having accents in names is so natural that I > see it as "human readable" too ;) You can have accents, you just can't use HTML entities to get them. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 13:28:18 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMUXi-00052X-1a for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:28:18 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMUXg-00076i-Mc for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:28:18 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NIDF4o003947; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:13:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2NIDFg6003946; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:13:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NIDABN003939 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:13:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from fe-amer-03.sun.com ([192.18.108.177]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k2NID9uf009454 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:13:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0IWL00I01E561G00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:13:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.204.157]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0IWL001JBELX4KS2@mail-amer.sun.com>; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:13:09 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:13:23 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: atom:name ... text or html? In-reply-to: To: Eric Scheid Cc: Atom Syntax Message-id: <5CD4E35F-9BD6-4A94-B495-F710B8721330@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.3) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 On Mar 23, 2006, at 8:57 AM, Eric Scheid wrote: > > On 24/3/06 3:21 AM, "Anne van Kesteren" > wrote: > >>> >>> >> Even if it was "HTML" you couldn't really use the entity, could >> you? I think >> you have to use a character reference or the actual character >> instead, yes. >> > > It's true that XML has only a half dozen or so entities defined To be precise, 5: < & > ' " -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 13:31:43 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMUb0-0000Fe-VT for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:31:42 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMUaz-0007HT-If for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:31:42 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NIGIJ5004116; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:16:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2NIGIfL004115; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:16:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NIGGE3004099 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:16:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from fe-amer-01.sun.com ([192.18.108.175]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k2NIGGuf012194 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:16:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0IWL00701ECQRJ00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:16:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.204.157]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0IWL00ESQER3M3U1@mail-amer.sun.com>; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:16:16 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:16:30 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: atom:name ... text or html? In-reply-to: To: Eric Scheid Cc: Atom Syntax Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.3) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id k2NIGHE3004107 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2NIGIJ5004116 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 On Mar 23, 2006, at 8:16 AM, Eric Scheid wrote: > If I have an author with the name "Bertrand Caf=E9", is it acceptable =20 > to put > that into atom:author like this; > > > > or should I be using the unicode numeric entity instead? The key point is that the atom:name element, described in RFC4287 =20 3.2.1, is not a "Text Construct", as defined in 3.1, so you can't say =20 ; so no markup allowed. So just say "Bertrand =20 Caf=E9". -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 14:01:29 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMV3p-0005rz-4J for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 14:01:29 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMV3n-0000Hh-P5 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 14:01:29 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NImtm1006037; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:48:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2NImtFj006036; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:48:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NImrXT006027 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:48:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from fe-amer-01.sun.com ([192.18.108.175]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k2NImrQj024002 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:48:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0IWL00E01G28AI00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:48:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.102.100] ([154.20.170.13]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0IWL00BJQG9FVU05@mail-amer.sun.com>; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:48:52 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:49:05 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? In-reply-to: <974993307.20060323180326@djpowell.net> To: David Powell Cc: Atom Syntax Message-id: <692BD006-4131-4E84-91F7-22F43494C2EE@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.3) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <974993307.20060323180326@djpowell.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab On Mar 23, 2006, at 10:03 AM, David Powell wrote: > > > xml:base applies to type="xhtml" content, but I'm not sure whether it > is supposed to apply to escaped type="html" content? I reckon that it > does. RFC4287, section 2: Any element defined by this specification MAY have an xml:base attribute [W3C.REC-xmlbase-20010627]. When xml:base is used in an Atom Document, it serves the function described in section 5.1.1 of [RFC3986], establishing the base URI (or IRI) for resolving any relative references found within the effective scope of the xml:base attribute. Seems pretty clear to me. Yes, the base URI of that HTML is now whatever xml:base said it was -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 17:01:58 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMXsU-00060a-Sw for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:01:58 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMXsT-0000hK-3k for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:01:58 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NLdI8E012792; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 14:39:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2NLdIsP012791; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 14:39:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.194]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NLdHBl012785 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 14:39:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i23so565469wra for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:39:16 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=i/3Toe4QamoSzsz9F24i5aCVk45BBLQI92tWkTs4ksh/oSVlV5goC//EunM45c/4p/Mo76cpT3KnT5mzh2LgWDsn2DuU08/lTx7rNrsV/RmJi/nToRbX9c4c0GgIG8X7SkRs2Uj58LkWo5YqJIHUPEull39ozxEFpeAaalAIWPI= Received: by 10.64.153.5 with SMTP id a5mr136616qbe; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:39:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.101? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id f17sm239920qba.2006.03.23.13.39.13; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:39:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4423157D.1040702@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:39:09 -0800 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Atom Thread Feed syntax References: <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> In-Reply-To: <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Just wanted to follow through on this for everyone. Given that there are vendors getting ready to ship code based on the current rev of the spec, I'm *not* going to rename the "id" attribute to "ref". Yes, I know that "id" is confusing to some folks, but we're just talking the name of a single attribute and not a critical functional bug. From this point forward, only critical spec bugs will be fixed and I will be submitting the spec for consideration as a standards track RFC in the not too distant future. - James Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I was reading the Atom Feed Thread draft [1] yesterday and I ran into a > problem as I described in my blog [2]. To recap the 'in-reply-to' > element defined in that specification takes an 'id' attribute that > specifies /the universally unique identifier of the resource being > responded to/. > > Calling such an attribute 'id' is a mistake in my opinion as it confuses > with the actual ID of the element itself within the XML document it > belongs to and it makes impossible for another element within the > document to have the same value as an 'id'. I would rather move the > content of that attribute as a text element of the 'in-reply-to' element > (as does the atom:id element). > > Thoughts? > - Sylvain > > [1] > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-05.txt > [2] http://www.defuze.org/archives/2006/03/14/about-atom-feed-threads > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 17:32:14 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMYLm-0007Ep-Ck for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:32:14 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMYLi-000285-27 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:32:14 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NML056014783; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 15:21:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2NML0rp014782; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 15:21:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.11]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k2NMKwJn014753 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 15:20:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.118] ([203.30.247.118] verified) by ironclad.net.au (Stalker SMTP Server 1.7) with ESMTP id S.0001901024 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:20:34 +1100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:20:24 +1100 Subject: Re: atom:name ... text or html? From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20060323174205.GO29103@klangraum> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 On 24/3/06 4:42 AM, "A. Pagaltzis" wrote: >> I'm getting the data by scraping an html page, so I'm expecting >> it to be acceptable html code, including html entities. > > Then decode the entities to a Unicode string and emit the feed as > Unicode. Simplest thing that will work reliably. I figured as much. Oh well, now to track down a list of html entities and their corresponding unicodes ... e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 17:58:17 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMYkz-0001RG-V5 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:58:17 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMYky-0002ur-IH for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:58:17 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NMkdIS015788; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 15:46:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2NMkdTo015787; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 15:46:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NMkcx0015781 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 15:46:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from fe-amer-01.sun.com ([192.18.108.175]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k2NMka8u023254 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 15:46:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0IWL00901QZSF800@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 15:46:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.102.100] ([154.20.170.13]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0IWL00BA8R9OVU45@mail-amer.sun.com>; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 15:46:36 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 14:46:49 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: atom:name ... text or html? In-reply-to: To: Eric Scheid Cc: Atom Syntax Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.3) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 On Mar 23, 2006, at 2:20 PM, Eric Scheid wrote: > Oh well, now to track down a list of html entities and > their corresponding unicodes ... http://www.google.com/search?q=xhtml%20entities From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 18:01:42 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMYoI-0004IH-LO for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:01:42 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMYoH-000306-8y for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:01:42 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2NMm3W5015850; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 15:48:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2NMm3D1015849; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 15:48:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k2NMm249015842 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 15:48:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 23 Mar 2006 22:47:56 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-220-207.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.220.207] by mail.gmx.net (mp033) with SMTP; 23 Mar 2006 23:47:56 +0100 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 23:47:51 +0100 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: atom:name ... text or html? Message-ID: <20060323224751.GC7257@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <20060323174205.GO29103@klangraum> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2NMm3W5015850 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c * Eric Scheid [2006-03-23 23:30]: >Oh well, now to track down a list of html entities and their >corresponding unicodes ... That would be in the spec. http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/sgml/entities.html But you shouldn=E2=80=99t have to. Any self-respecting language has a library for that somewhere. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 20:21:14 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMazK-0006l8-BB for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 20:21:14 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMazI-0004Qd-LX for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 20:21:14 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2O1965J022227; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:09:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2O1969c022226; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:09:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mta07-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.47]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2O194Cx022216 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:09:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20060324010859.GDCB29343.mtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com>; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 01:08:59 +0000 Received: from cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust17.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([81.111.201.17]) by aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20060324010859.EWTX9667.aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust17.bagu.cable.ntl.com>; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 01:08:59 +0000 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 01:08:55 +0000 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.71.03) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1137722959.20060324010855@djpowell.net> To: James M Snell CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Atom Thread Feed syntax In-Reply-To: <4423157D.1040702@gmail.com> References: <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> <4423157D.1040702@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Thursday, March 23, 2006, 9:39:09 PM, James M Snell wrote: > Just wanted to follow through on this for everyone. Given that there > are vendors getting ready to ship code based on the current rev of the > spec, I'm *not* going to rename the "id" attribute to "ref". Yes, I > know that "id" is confusing to some folks, but we're just talking the > name of a single attribute and not a critical functional bug. From this > point forward, only critical spec bugs will be fixed and I will be > submitting the spec for consideration as a standards track RFC in the > not too distant future. I'm more bothered about the use of undefined markup on the link element. I know, I know, I keep going on and on about this, but I keep seeing more drafts that do the same thing and it isn't just a theoretical problem: Windows Feed Platform does not preserve arbitrary markup other than proper extension elements. Other feed stores and servers are likely to do the same (justifiably IMO). The abandonment of extension constructs in favour of undefined markup by this draft, and other draft-*-atompub-* drafts would be an interoperability concern if these drafts were deployed. If you want to extend Atom, use Extension Elements. -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 21:46:47 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMcK7-0003IJ-PD for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 21:46:47 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMcK6-0007Zt-8M for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 21:46:47 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2O2VPft025903; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 19:31:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2O2VP4a025902; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 19:31:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k2O2VMsA025894 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 19:31:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 24 Mar 2006 02:31:16 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-220-207.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.220.207] by mail.gmx.net (mp040) with SMTP; 24 Mar 2006 03:31:16 +0100 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 03:31:17 +0100 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Atom Thread Feed syntax Message-ID: <20060324023117.GF7257@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> <4423157D.1040702@gmail.com> <1137722959.20060324010855@djpowell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1137722959.20060324010855@djpowell.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2O2VPft025903 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 * David Powell [2006-03-24 02:20]: >The abandonment of extension constructs in favour of undefined >markup by this draft, and other draft-*-atompub-* drafts would >be an interoperability concern if these drafts were deployed. If >you want to extend Atom, use Extension Elements. I don=E2=80=99t follow. Please explain how these drafts fail to satisfy the criteria in Section 6.4.2, Structured Extension Elements. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 23 22:38:48 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMd8S-0004G3-In for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 22:38:48 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMd8R-00019Y-2P for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 22:38:48 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2O3SCNj029236; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 20:28:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2O3SCco029235; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 20:28:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.228]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2O3SB2E029229 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 20:28:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i34so614112wra for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 19:28:11 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=qdcaT9ysGgIyHP2goE7/ddDYCkAbFax/EJT2tV0B/E2MuNRDwN3dV7oTPxxG84rfaO4W54j/+7gv3y8Leh2SyJMXXLM3iQ1uFjZPcKprsvDFQiwHvUkuEJqNot7f3gdeuDmSxmmAj/zTOhFMh6TJtyDYl0np3ul5URenrWupHqE= Received: by 10.54.153.8 with SMTP id a8mr152953wre; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 19:28:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.101? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 64sm3505680wra.2006.03.23.19.28.05; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 19:28:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <44236742.2090901@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 19:28:02 -0800 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Atom Thread Feed syntax References: <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> <4423157D.1040702@gmail.com> <1137722959.20060324010855@djpowell.net> <20060324023117.GF7257@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20060324023117.GF7257@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2O3SCNj029236 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab I believe the concern is over the thr:count and thr:when attributes for the replies link relation, both of which are optional, and both of which provide what I consider to be extra information. In other words, it's ok if an implementation drops them. The important bit is the in-reply-to element and the replies link rel, both of which fall within the bounds of the Atom extension model. - James A. Pagaltzis wrote: > * David Powell [2006-03-24 02:20]: >> The abandonment of extension constructs in favour of undefined >> markup by this draft, and other draft-*-atompub-* drafts would >> be an interoperability concern if these drafts were deployed. If >> you want to extend Atom, use Extension Elements. >=20 > I don=E2=80=99t follow. Please explain how these drafts fail to satisfy > the criteria in Section 6.4.2, Structured Extension Elements. >=20 > Regards, From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 24 00:02:51 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMeRn-0001bp-Up for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 00:02:51 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMeRm-0004ja-D2 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 00:02:51 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2O4ptuh032651; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 21:51:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2O4pthe032650; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 21:51:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.231]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2O4psV2032644 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 21:51:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i34so630838wra for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 20:51:54 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=lHfXdGZgiXD5WQBI5CHhvQ7FbQhIf6vB07Fba1nYLPumrCP585OT2c1e9H0BM2If6YYaSSLCjj5kcYECA0iqNKsH5NhVHE0DebeeolYSb62WT1HewAzrUAoFXDu77ygDLWtyws+LC3mymksr3uGF6W6XO2Xy5aWSMaTouqetEmM= Received: by 10.54.132.7 with SMTP id f7mr166366wrd; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 20:51:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.101? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 35sm894233wra.2006.03.23.20.51.53; Thu, 23 Mar 2006 20:51:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <44237AE6.9050500@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 20:51:50 -0800 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Atom Thread Feed syntax References: <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> <4423157D.1040702@gmail.com> <1137722959.20060324010855@djpowell.net> In-Reply-To: <1137722959.20060324010855@djpowell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 David Powell wrote: >[snip] > The abandonment of extension constructs in favour of undefined markup > by this draft, and other draft-*-atompub-* drafts would be an > interoperability concern if these drafts were deployed. If you want to > extend Atom, use Extension Elements. > I'm most certainly not abandoning the extension constructs. One of the motivations for walking these extension specs through the I-D and eventually standards-track process is so that they get their own RFC number. Implementations that choose to support the extension can point to RFC4287 *and* RFCwhatever and say, "I support both". If an implementation only says "I support RFC4287" and doesn't say anything about RFCwhatever, it's pretty clear what the result would be. The most an RFC4287 implementation should be expected to do is adhere to the defined extension model. If that implementation also chooses to support other RFC's that go beyond that extension model, so be it. That said, the critical parts of the Feed Thread draft (the in-reply-to element and the replies link rel) follow the guidelines of the Atom extension model. That is, any RFC4287 implementation *should* be able to do something with those elements (even if it's just preserving them). The optional parts of the extension (thr:count an thr:when) fall outside of the Atom extension model. That's ok. Implementations can choose to ignore those things, even completely drop them. As for the other extension drafts I put out, keep in mind that most should be considered strictly experimental at this time. That said, there is really only one that really falls outside the extension model.. the Link Extensions draft [1]... which, by definition cannot adhere to the extension model given the fact that Atom link elements are actually not extensible. [1] http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-link-extensions-02.txt - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 24 04:37:33 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMijd-0006Wk-7n for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 04:37:33 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMijb-00075y-Sb for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 04:37:33 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2O9PVSp043494; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 02:25:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2O9PVLH043493; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 02:25:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from linux.site (host-84-9-38-190.bulldogdsl.com [84.9.38.190]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2O9PU7J043487 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 02:25:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from sh@defuze.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by linux.site (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABAD9CCF2; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:25:21 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4423ACF1.6090600@defuze.org> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:25:21 +0100 From: Sylvain Hellegouarch Reply-To: sh@defuze.org User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James M Snell CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Atom Thread Feed syntax References: <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> <4423157D.1040702@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4423157D.1040702@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d > Just wanted to follow through on this for everyone. Given that there > are vendors getting ready to ship code based on the current rev of the > spec, I'm *not* going to rename the "id" attribute to "ref". Yes, I > know that "id" is confusing to some folks, but we're just talking the > name of a single attribute and not a critical functional bug. From this > point forward, only critical spec bugs will be fixed and I will be > submitting the spec for consideration as a standards track RFC in the > not too distant future. > > - James > > First of all thanks for the follow-up, this is appreciated. Now I do understand your motivation at keeping the name of the attribute and I also believe people that will be reading such feed won't make the mistake. Fir enough. It's not that a big deal... or is it? I do find a bit hard to swallow though the "implemantators do it that way so let's not update the RFC" which is still a draft, even if an advanced one. I simply wonder what is worse, to annoy a few vendors now or a wider audience in the future. Anyway, so be it. I won't argue and I leave you the final word on this one ;) - Sylvain From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 24 12:48:12 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMqOS-0003xj-2s for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 12:48:12 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMqOQ-0003tX-37 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 12:48:11 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2OHXH0i066772; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 10:33:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2OHXHxI066771; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 10:33:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mta09-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.49]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2OHXFfY066746 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 10:33:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20060324173307.XGXI27969.mtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com>; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 17:33:07 +0000 Received: from cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust17.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([81.111.201.17]) by aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20060324173307.QQOX9667.aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust17.bagu.cable.ntl.com>; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 17:33:07 +0000 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 17:33:05 +0000 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.71.03) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <80337298.20060324173305@djpowell.net> To: James M Snell CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Atom Thread Feed syntax In-Reply-To: <44236742.2090901@gmail.com> References: <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> <4423157D.1040702@gmail.com> <1137722959.20060324010855@djpowell.net> <20060324023117.GF7257@klangraum> <44236742.2090901@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10ba05e7e8a9aa6adb025f426bef3a30 Friday, March 24, 2006, 3:28:02 AM, James Snell wrote: > I believe the concern is over the thr:count and thr:when attributes for > the replies link relation, both of which are optional, and both of which > provide what I consider to be extra information. In other words, it's > ok if an implementation drops them. Yeah I agree that an implementation losing those attributes wasn't exactly life-threatening. But is it "*ok* if an implementation drops them"? Will publishers think that it is ok if some infrastructure drop those attributes? Will subscribers? Presumably publishers have spent some effort adding those attributes to the feed, in the hope that subscribers will get some benefit from them. > The important bit is the in-reply-to element and the replies link > rel, both of which fall within the bounds of the Atom extension > model. Yeah, I agree. > I'm most certainly not abandoning the extension constructs. One of the > motivations for walking these extension specs through the I-D and > eventually standards-track process is so that they get their own RFC > number. Implementations that choose to support the extension can point > to RFC4287 *and* RFCwhatever and say, "I support both". If an > implementation only says "I support RFC4287" and doesn't say anything > about RFCwhatever, it's pretty clear what the result would be. > > The most an RFC4287 implementation should be expected to do is adhere to > the defined extension model. If that implementation also chooses to > support other RFC's that go beyond that extension model, so be it. I find much of section 6 of RFC4287 a bit pointless. It describes these classes of extensions, and I just think - so what?. I think it would be good to have a second draft which described a number of conformance levels for feed infrastructure - things like the handling, and preservation or not, of extensions. Then publishers would know that if a popular infrastructure (Windows RSS, Rome, Feedburner, APP implementations, etc) implements a given level of a compliance, what to expect. It isn't always preferable for a feed to reappear exactly as it was after travelling through an API or APP store, much of the added value in implementations will come from the transformations that they do. Even producing an archive feed, isn't possible without a reasonable number of transformations (eg: storing inherited constructs: author, base, lang, rights with the entry). > That said, the critical parts of the Feed Thread draft (the in-reply-to > element and the replies link rel) follow the guidelines of the Atom > extension model. That is, any RFC4287 implementation *should* be able > to do something with those elements (even if it's just preserving them). > The optional parts of the extension (thr:count an thr:when) fall > outside of the Atom extension model. That's ok. Implementations can > choose to ignore those things, even completely drop them. My hope is that implementors will be able to think of Atom in terms of Entries, Feeds, and everything else; rather than in terms of XML, a fragile document markup language. > As for the other extension drafts I put out, keep in mind that most > should be considered strictly experimental at this time. That said, > there is really only one that really falls outside the extension model.. > the Link Extensions draft [1]... which, by definition cannot adhere to > the extension model given the fact that Atom link elements are actually > not extensible. I haven't looked at them all thoroughly. Do you want to extend link elements rather than use extension elements in these cases because you expect that link constructs are more likely to provide a UI in implementations? I suppose that there are workarounds, eg: 10 2006-02-20T00:00:00Z -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 24 13:03:24 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMqdA-0002Vr-M8 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 13:03:24 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMqd9-0004HB-1F for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 13:03:24 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2OHpUWC067350; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 10:51:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2OHpUuZ067349; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 10:51:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.238]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2OHpTIT067343 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 10:51:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i23so822904wra for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:51:28 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=upyzbTeMFn2z583IOPDKpKt2QyohzIM5815opQIBwu3Y0pE3wPhrFI4N+VmfJGfvPW18JwxJnKGSLA0hfa2lN7LDy9cVWlkbKQjF9IUEQT9z+WuYTUrjr//cutnlJxGXoA1TADm9jH1Lku6GjIA9oAFzrxAkMl7ltqpaHZ+dN6o= Received: by 10.54.66.14 with SMTP id o14mr719871wra; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:51:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.101? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 27sm2375020wrl.2006.03.24.09.51.27; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:51:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4424319B.8090605@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:51:23 -0800 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Atom Thread Feed syntax References: <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> <4423157D.1040702@gmail.com> <1137722959.20060324010855@djpowell.net> <20060324023117.GF7257@klangraum> <44236742.2090901@gmail.com> <80337298.20060324173305@djpowell.net> In-Reply-To: <80337298.20060324173305@djpowell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a8a20a483a84f747e56475e290ee868e David Powell wrote: > Friday, March 24, 2006, 3:28:02 AM, James Snell wrote: > >> I believe the concern is over the thr:count and thr:when attributes for >> the replies link relation, both of which are optional, and both of which >> provide what I consider to be extra information. In other words, it's >> ok if an implementation drops them. > > Yeah I agree that an implementation losing those attributes wasn't > exactly life-threatening. But is it "*ok* if an implementation drops > them"? Will publishers think that it is ok if some infrastructure drop > those attributes? Will subscribers? Presumably publishers have spent > some effort adding those attributes to the feed, in the hope that > subscribers will get some benefit from them. > Yes, I think it's ok to drop them. In fact, I'll likely add something to the spec that discusses this issue.. specifically, that the thr:count and thr:when attributes fall outside of the atom extensibility model and may not be preserved by strictly compliant RFC4287 implementations. In other words, here they are, but use at your own risk. >[snip] >> The most an RFC4287 implementation should be expected to do is adhere to >> the defined extension model. If that implementation also chooses to >> support other RFC's that go beyond that extension model, so be it. > > I find much of section 6 of RFC4287 a bit pointless. It describes > these classes of extensions, and I just think - so what?. > I agree, but... > I think it would be good to have a second draft which described a > number of conformance levels for feed infrastructure - things like the > handling, and preservation or not, of extensions. Then publishers > would know that if a popular infrastructure (Windows RSS, Rome, > Feedburner, APP implementations, etc) implements a given level of a > compliance, what to expect. It isn't always preferable for a feed to > reappear exactly as it was after travelling through an API or APP > store, much of the added value in implementations will come from the > transformations that they do. Even producing an archive feed, isn't > possible without a reasonable number of transformations (eg: storing > inherited constructs: author, base, lang, rights with the entry). > In my view of the current spec, Atom has two layers of extensibility. One layer is defined in section 6. The other is defined by XML. A strictly compliant RFC4287 implementation should only be expected to comply with section 6, but that doesn't mean the implementation cannot also support general extensibility on the XML layer. >[snip] > My hope is that implementors will be able to think of Atom in terms of > Entries, Feeds, and everything else; rather than in terms of XML, a > fragile document markup language. > Yep. In the Atom implementation I've written, the entire XML infoset is preserved with an Atom object model layered over the top. E.g. code can work with Feed, Entry, Link, etc. As far as extensibility is concerned, that Atom object model only exposes section 6 extensions. If the app developer wants to look at things from an XML perspective, they can peel back a layer and work with the infoset directly. > I haven't looked at them all thoroughly. Do you want to extend link > elements rather than use extension elements in these cases because you > expect that link constructs are more likely to provide a UI in > implementations? > I want to extend Link because there is little sense in reinventing it. It would be silly for me to have a sitting side by side with when both serve the same general purpose. It was a mistake not to make atom:link extensible per section 6. However, this is still XML and Atom allows undefined content and undefined attributes on atom:link, so, I'm free to do what I want with atom:link so long as I'm aware up front that what I'm doing falls outside the bounds of Atom's section 6 extensibility model. Personally, I think that folks will find in the long run that section 6 really is pointless. > I suppose that there are workarounds, eg: > > > > 10 > 2006-02-20T00:00:00Z > > > href="http://www.example.org/mycommentsfeed.xml" /> > > > Blech. :-) - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 24 13:39:45 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMrCL-00075Z-ME for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 13:39:45 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMrCK-0005Xe-6S for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 13:39:45 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2OIP43s068698; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 11:25:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2OIP4J7068697; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 11:25:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.237]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2OIP3wU068691 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 11:25:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i23so832371wra for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 10:25:03 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Wnf/a4sqPimyYg5YHNjAmkgiNbFanIYKqk+9ZbwhZbzAYkJTXw/3apRP3mKMWYZIWn6uAcnw9kWkfc4nGFBJO+ZhKtNMhy7LV4KDmQ9k5Dd+BwAvhpRyXUqUL8V2E5ocHbyEnFcDSIFWrq4Et0hmA3sCT481+3j7F/Ds2bIfnnw= Received: by 10.64.142.5 with SMTP id p5mr963690qbd; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 10:25:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.101? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id e13sm1692093qbe.2006.03.24.10.25.02; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 10:25:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4424397A.9000305@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 10:24:58 -0800 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Atom Thread Feed syntax References: <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> <4423157D.1040702@gmail.com> <4423ACF1.6090600@defuze.org> In-Reply-To: <4423ACF1.6090600@defuze.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 1.9 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d For me it's a matter of the fact that the spec has gone through 6 revisions and two design overhauls since it was first pitched. It's been out there for quite a while. At some point, the design discussions need to end and it needs to stablize so that folks can do something real with it. If, during that process, some folks get annoyed, so be it, that's the nature of the game. No spec is perfect, nor should we waste our time trying to make them so. Is the spec good enough? I think so. Are there any functional bugs? I don't think so. Can the spec text be improved? Definitely, and I'll likely do so one more time between now and when it's actually submitted for consideration as a standards track RFC. - James Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote: >[snip] > I do find a bit hard to swallow though the "implemantators do it that > way so let's not update the RFC" which is still a draft, even if an > advanced one. I simply wonder what is worse, to annoy a few vendors now > or a wider audience in the future. > > Anyway, so be it. I won't argue and I leave you the final word on this > one ;) > > - Sylvain > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 24 14:47:08 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMsFY-0001Wf-57 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 14:47:08 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMsFW-0007rm-PH for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 14:47:08 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2OJWVpF071293; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 12:32:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2OJWVB4071292; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 12:32:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from linux.site (host-84-9-38-190.bulldogdsl.com [84.9.38.190]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2OJWUqe071286 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 12:32:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from sh@defuze.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by linux.site (Postfix) with ESMTP id 569C2DC7A for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 19:32:21 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <44243B34.5000501@defuze.org> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 19:32:20 +0100 From: Sylvain Hellegouarch Reply-To: sh@defuze.org User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Atom Thread Feed syntax References: <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> <4423157D.1040702@gmail.com> <4423ACF1.6090600@defuze.org> <4424397A.9000305@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4424397A.9000305@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Hi James, > For me it's a matter of the fact that the spec has gone through 6 > revisions and two design overhauls since it was first pitched. It's > been out there for quite a while. At some point, the design discussions > need to end and it needs to stablize so that folks can do something real > with it. If, during that process, some folks get annoyed, so be it, > that's the nature of the game. Well I find you a bit aggressive here I haven't said I was annoyed nor anybody else. I'm sorry for not being there during the first months you've put that draft in shape. There is no place I have seen where you said in the first place the discussions were over until now by the way. > No spec is perfect, nor should we waste > our time trying to make them so. Is the spec good enough? I think so. > You do but recognise at least that what was merely a question from my part showed that a few people hanging around here agreed on the misleading name and a good alternative was quickly found. You have the right to dismiss of course. > Are there any functional bugs? I don't think so. Can the spec text be > improved? Definitely, and I'll likely do so one more time between now > and when it's actually submitted for consideration as a standards track > RFC. > Well I wonder how since you define what's important and what's not. I'm a bit annoyed now because my first message was not aiming at changing the draft but to understand the meaning of that choice but now you simply disregard any point of view at least me could make based on the fact it is implemented through various vendors. This is all fine as it's your decision but the way you put things is a bit difficult to accept from a regular user point of view like me. Could you please state on your blog then that the call for discussion on this draft is over so that things become clear? - Sylvain From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 24 15:34:45 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMszd-0007D3-HN for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 15:34:45 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMsza-0001bx-Ty for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 15:34:45 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2OKIQKu073107; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 13:18:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2OKIQil073106; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 13:18:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.225]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2OKIPDu073100 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 13:18:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i34so833377wra for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 12:18:25 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=awp5m7iuKAAvjSUxdQLu1OKlvdFYafWQIPzId3yn/7IdlVn7QuUuX8/vn5vmuYYALZtO9r13T2+8rVD+502R0rA9tZPA5sKIWCcesMYgRuP0q6eXOdHoTUDLHnwCJzL49NzWYKQZNW83fY6dWPNW0VmAM833G8X1vVQpYZZsi/I= Received: by 10.54.83.12 with SMTP id g12mr885951wrb; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 12:18:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.101? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 40sm562696wrl.2006.03.24.12.18.22; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 12:18:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4424540C.7070006@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 12:18:20 -0800 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Changing feed thread (was: Re: Atom Thread Feed syntax) References: <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> <4423157D.1040702@gmail.com> <4423ACF1.6090600@defuze.org> <4424397A.9000305@gmail.com> <44243B34.5000501@defuze.org> In-Reply-To: <44243B34.5000501@defuze.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 1.9 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 92df29fa99cf13e554b84c8374345c17 Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote: > > Hi James, >> For me it's a matter of the fact that the spec has gone through 6 >> revisions and two design overhauls since it was first pitched. It's >> been out there for quite a while. At some point, the design discussions >> need to end and it needs to stablize so that folks can do something real >> with it. If, during that process, some folks get annoyed, so be it, >> that's the nature of the game. > Well I find you a bit aggressive here I haven't said I was annoyed nor > anybody else. I'm sorry for not being there during the first months > you've put that draft in shape. There is no place I have seen where you > said in the first place the discussions were over until now by the way. > Not a problem :-) I had announced an informal "last-call" back around the December 2005 timeframe. But that was more or less designed to get folks to actually read the spec than it was to lock things down. The discussions are definitely not over but I want to avoid making generally cosmetic changes because there are always going to be some folks who aren't going to be happy. >> No spec is perfect, nor should we waste >> our time trying to make them so. Is the spec good enough? I think so. >> > You do but recognise at least that what was merely a question from my > part showed that a few people hanging around here agreed on the > misleading name and a good alternative was quickly found. You have the > right to dismiss of course. I also agree that the name change would be good and I seriously considered making the change. If I hear from enough implementors that say changing it would not be a problem, I'd likely go ahead and do so. (e.g. when I say "final" I usually mean "more than likely final but I'm always open to be convinced otherwise" ;-) ..) >> Are there any functional bugs? I don't think so. Can the spec text be >> improved? Definitely, and I'll likely do so one more time between now >> and when it's actually submitted for consideration as a standards track >> RFC. >> > Well I wonder how since you define what's important and what's not. > Please don't misinterpret, I'm not disregarding any point of view on this. I've seriously considered every bit of feedback offered and greatly appreciate it.. and, like I said above, it's always possible to convince me to make a change if there's enough support for it. So, with that, let me go ahead and open it up to a vote with the caveat that votes from folks with concrete plans to implement the spec will carry more weight so I'd appreciate a heads up. 1. Do I change to ? and.. to address David's concerns about extending atom:link... 2. Do I change thr:count and thr:when to extension elements instead of attributes on atom:link? None of the implementors I'm aware of are currently making use of multiple replies link relations on an entry so changing #2 likely wouldn't cause too many headaches. My apologies if I came across a little too heavy handed on this. That was most definitely *not* the intention. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 24 15:49:42 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMtE6-00014F-IM for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 15:49:42 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FMtE5-000270-6l for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 15:49:42 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2OKVkcZ073566; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 13:31:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2OKVkm9073565; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 13:31:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.225]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2OKVjom073558 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 13:31:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i34so836662wra for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 12:31:45 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=oQ+/HRbJgCWZrVOMwTpIxE2klLZ1hr9DxsLktXr2uzrmjROLBsqUjrOrGFCyaj2Jwo40v/LVOxoUz5Hy0Q/v9T3y51LjuX5LlBAvudHVqMwRWtui1lakoxQxGtUN642vOt/o2Co84jV5YiSFCpXt1ji6SA73N6wM1e6jW1O9V9I= Received: by 10.54.105.15 with SMTP id d15mr825554wrc; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 12:31:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.101? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 12sm181068wrl.2006.03.24.12.31.44; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 12:31:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4424572E.2050502@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 12:31:42 -0800 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Changing feed thread References: <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> <4423157D.1040702@gmail.com> <4423ACF1.6090600@defuze.org> <4424397A.9000305@gmail.com> <44243B34.5000501@defuze.org> <4424540C.7070006@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4424540C.7070006@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 1.9 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Oh, and I forgot to say that the folks who have already commented in favor of the id-to-ref rename already have their votes counted ;-) And yes, Dave, I'm counting your comments regarding #2 as a +1.. - James James M Snell wrote: >[snip] > So, with that, let me go ahead and open it up to a vote with the caveat > that votes from folks with concrete plans to implement the spec will > carry more weight so I'd appreciate a heads up. > > 1. Do I change to ? > > and.. to address David's concerns about extending atom:link... > > 2. Do I change thr:count and thr:when to extension elements instead of > attributes on atom:link? > > None of the implementors I'm aware of are currently making use of > multiple replies link relations on an entry so changing #2 likely > wouldn't cause too many headaches. > > My apologies if I came across a little too heavy handed on this. That > was most definitely *not* the intention. > > - James > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 24 23:54:56 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FN0ng-0006zf-BC for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 23:54:56 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FN0ne-00049J-NS for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 23:54:56 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2P4cxJq094771; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 21:38:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2P4cxoV094770; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 21:38:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav23.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.95]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2P4cwv2094764 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 21:38:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 24 Mar 2006 20:38:58 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 86.141.225.209 by BAY106-DAV23.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 25 Mar 2006 04:38:57 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [86.141.225.209] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: References: <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> <4423157D.1040702@gmail.com> <4423ACF1.6090600@defuze.org> <4424397A.9000305@gmail.com> <44243B34.5000501@defuze.org> <4424540C.7070006@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Changing feed thread (was: Re: Atom Thread Feed syntax) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 06:38:55 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Mar 2006 04:38:58.0593 (UTC) FILETIME=[082D1910:01C64FC6] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 James M Snell wrote: > 1. Do I change to ? I don't know enough to care what you call those attributes. And it's a long way before we'll go live with anything so if you need to change attribute names it wouldn't bother me in the least. > 2. Do I change thr:count and thr:when to extension elements instead of > attributes on atom:link? I currently have no interest in supporting either of those so it doesn't matter to me. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Mar 25 09:53:04 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FNA8W-0005on-T9 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 25 Mar 2006 09:53:04 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FNA8V-0002JJ-Hu for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 25 Mar 2006 09:53:04 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2PEd6UC036684; Sat, 25 Mar 2006 07:39:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2PEd6vN036683; Sat, 25 Mar 2006 07:39:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from linux.site (host-87-74-8-139.bulldogdsl.com [87.74.8.139]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2PEd58M036676 for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2006 07:39:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from sh@defuze.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by linux.site (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB3F4CCF2; Sat, 25 Mar 2006 14:39:03 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <442547F6.5040901@defuze.org> Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 14:39:02 +0100 From: Sylvain Hellegouarch Reply-To: sh@defuze.org User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James M Snell CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Changing feed thread References: <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> <4423157D.1040702@gmail.com> <4423ACF1.6090600@defuze.org> <4424397A.9000305@gmail.com> <44243B34.5000501@defuze.org> <4424540C.7070006@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4424540C.7070006@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Hello James, > So, with that, let me go ahead and open it up to a vote with the caveat > that votes from folks with concrete plans to implement the spec will > carry more weight so I'd appreciate a heads up. > > 1. Do I change to ? > > and.. to address David's concerns about extending atom:link... > +1 > 2. Do I change thr:count and thr:when to extension elements instead of > attributes on atom:link? > > +1 although I'm less annoyed by this one if you keep it as it is now. > My apologies if I came across a little too heavy handed on this. That > was most definitely *not* the intention. > Thank you very much for the feedback then as I was getting afraid we would not be able to simply discuss around here :D So thank you. - Sylvain From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Mar 25 10:45:02 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FNAwo-0005W7-4L for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 25 Mar 2006 10:45:02 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FNAwm-0004X1-IX for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 25 Mar 2006 10:45:02 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2PFXqcQ040984; Sat, 25 Mar 2006 08:33:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2PFXqxH040983; Sat, 25 Mar 2006 08:33:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k2PFXo0C040957 for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2006 08:33:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 25 Mar 2006 15:33:43 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-227-139.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.227.139] by mail.gmx.net (mp036) with SMTP; 25 Mar 2006 16:33:43 +0100 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 16:33:43 +0100 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Changing feed thread (was: Re: Atom Thread Feed syntax) Message-ID: <20060325153343.GH7257@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> <4423157D.1040702@gmail.com> <4423ACF1.6090600@defuze.org> <4424397A.9000305@gmail.com> <44243B34.5000501@defuze.org> <4424540C.7070006@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4424540C.7070006@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2PFXqcQ040984 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 * James M Snell [2006-03-24 21:30]: >1. Do I change to = ? +1, in case my implicit vote isn=E2=80=99t already counted. >2. Do I change thr:count and thr:when to extension elements >instead of attributes on atom:link? +0; but I don=E2=80=99t plan on using those on either end of the wire. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 27 02:32:20 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FNmD6-0005G4-QJ for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 02:32:20 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FNmD2-0007Qe-DE for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 02:32:20 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2R7CYcO068394; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 00:12:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2R7CYYn068393; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 00:12:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.196]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2R7CXIi068385 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 00:12:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from t.broyer@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i11so1318402nzh for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2006 23:12:32 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Gy8y8CsAN5Qbaw8CLGxHBgEc08Iq0nJ2Fk0mCaEeTbKOyr+TvwEth+szEs48RHxO9ym58bJR6YyzqJ2jeH6X9haCiLYRg16WzMhQ5MDl41ukOIQez4m40ikQAK89sEZzIsFJ+5wAf4ZF/dz5dpAtmFlFipiRWyZilEOD3yyVloE= Received: by 10.36.68.5 with SMTP id q5mr4605961nza; Sun, 26 Mar 2006 23:12:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.36.178.1 with HTTP; Sun, 26 Mar 2006 23:12:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 09:12:32 +0200 From: "Thomas Broyer" To: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: Changing feed thread (was: Re: Atom Thread Feed syntax) In-Reply-To: <4424540C.7070006@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Disposition: inline References: <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> <4423157D.1040702@gmail.com> <4423ACF1.6090600@defuze.org> <4424397A.9000305@gmail.com> <44243B34.5000501@defuze.org> <4424540C.7070006@gmail.com> X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id k2R7CXIi068388 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2R7CYcO068394 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 2006/3/24, James M Snell : > 1. Do I change to ? +0.5, I have no real problem with id but as it seems to bother some peopl= e=85 > and.. to address David's concerns about extending atom:link... > > 2. Do I change thr:count and thr:when to extension elements instead of > attributes on atom:link? +1 > None of the implementors I'm aware of are currently making use of > multiple replies link relations on an entry so changing #2 likely > wouldn't cause too many headaches. I wouldn't understand what really does mean the following: Without the thr:count, I'd say that those two links are intended for client-side content negotiation, but given that the two thr:count values differ=85 would it mean that there have been 5 new comments since the text/html representation has been last updated? But what if there were a thr:when indicating the opposite? And Rob Sayre also pointed on his blog a potential problem on how to use such multiple values: "How do I display that in a client? Do I add up the numbers? Pick the highest? Do I pick the latest or the earliest time?". [http://www.franklinmint.fm/blog/archives/000721.html] I know what your answer is [http://www.snellspace.com/wp/?p=3D297] but I also think that these are entry properties, not really link properties (so I disagree with you on "First, The thr:count and thr:when properties are specific to the replies link upon which they appear." [http://www.snellspace.com/wp/?p=3D296]). -- Thomas Broyer From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 27 05:13:58 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FNojW-0002fK-9u for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 05:13:58 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FNojU-0006ZJ-Qk for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 05:13:58 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2R9pmRO074181; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 02:51:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2R9pmAa074180; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 02:51:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pproxy.gmail.com (pproxy.gmail.com [64.233.166.178]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2R9plw2074173 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 02:51:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by pproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id t32so1416787pyc for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 01:51:47 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=S9RJo0bLs8HkQ/u+l3rmVfIXIoBj4zx4uG4r/gWznJ9JgRAgy/5w2Q/C7CMjDCfJ/53yTz0fNCX2ehiEZueIfxIm/hTVA97mcrvWSC4sdAF3FgXpp8XMnGDfYsyd2bRuZyM9mR7yD6Yls3W6e3aWe7yniG28uZc1AlRbw51hl5U= Received: by 10.35.34.20 with SMTP id m20mr301698pyj; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 01:51:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.101? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id n77sm348534pye.2006.03.27.01.51.46; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 01:51:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4427B5AF.3000903@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 01:51:43 -0800 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: Changing feed thread References: <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> <4423157D.1040702@gmail.com> <4423ACF1.6090600@defuze.org> <4424397A.9000305@gmail.com> <44243B34.5000501@defuze.org> <4424540C.7070006@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2R9pmRO074181 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5a9a1bd6c2d06a21d748b7d0070ddcb8 The key confusion point around how to process thr:count and thr:when is simple: there is no processing model for them. They're strictly advisory. They're nothing more than a hint about how many replies may be found at the link specified, or when the most recent reply may have been placed. If there is a mismatch between those values and reality, reality wins. There is no spoon. Thomas Broyer wrote: >[snip] > I wouldn't understand what really does mean the following: > > thr:count=3D"10" /> > Without the thr:count, I'd say that those two links are intended for > client-side content negotiation, but given that the two thr:count > values differ=85 would it mean that there have been 5 new comments sinc= e > the text/html representation has been last updated? But what if there > were a thr:when indicating the opposite? >=20 The difference in numbers between each link thr:count does not imply any meaning beyond: "There may be 10 replies found in the atom feed, and there may be 5 replies found in the html page"... such would make sense, for example, if the html page was set up only to show the five most recent entries/replies while the atom feed is set up to show the ten most recent entries/replies. The point being, you cannot compare the two numbers from the two links and expect to derive any meaning from the comparison, particularly given that Atom does not define any particular relationship among link elements of the same type (e.g. two "related" links are not necessarily content-negotiated alternatives of one another). > And Rob Sayre also pointed on his blog a potential problem on how to > use such multiple values: "How do I display that in a client? Do I add > up the numbers? Pick the highest? Do I pick the latest or the earliest > time?". [http://www.franklinmint.fm/blog/archives/000721.html] > I know what your answer is [http://www.snellspace.com/wp/?p=3D297] but = I > also think that these are entry properties, not really link properties > (so I disagree with you on "First, The thr:count and thr:when > properties are specific to the replies link upon which they appear." > [http://www.snellspace.com/wp/?p=3D296]). >=20 No, the semantic of thr:count is not "How many total replies does this entry have". The semantic of thr:count is "How many replies may be found at this linked location". It's a shortcut. Feed publishers who know how many replies have been made can include it in their replies link so clients don't have to pull the feed, parse it out, and count the number of entries in in-reply-to links just to show a "Comments (5)" link/label in their UI. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 27 11:18:08 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FNuPw-0003U2-Q1 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 11:18:08 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FNuPv-0005J0-5D for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 11:18:08 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2RG40PY094697; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 09:04:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2RG40DW094696; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 09:04:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mout0.freenet.de (mout0.freenet.de [194.97.50.131]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2RG3wCm094689 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 09:03:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from sewe@rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de) Received: from [194.97.50.138] (helo=mx0.freenet.de) by mout0.freenet.de with esmtpa (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FNuCD-00006D-Qo for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 18:03:57 +0200 Received: from ultra12.rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de ([130.83.160.102]) by mx0.freenet.de with esmtpsa (ID sewe2004@freenet.de) (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.61 #1) id 1FNuCD-0004nN-Li for atom-syntax@imc.org; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 18:03:57 +0200 Message-ID: <44280CEA.3040500@rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 18:03:54 +0200 From: Andreas Sewe Organization: Fachbereich Informatik, TU Darmstadt User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20050930) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Changing feed thread References: <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> <4423157D.1040702@gmail.com> <4423ACF1.6090600@defuze.org> <4424397A.9000305@gmail.com> <44243B34.5000501@defuze.org> <4424540C.7070006@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4424540C.7070006@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 James M Snell wrote: > So, with that, let me go ahead and open it up to a vote with the > caveat that votes from folks with concrete plans to implement the > spec will carry more weight so I'd appreciate a heads up. > > 1. Do I change to ? +1. (Just for the record and in case I haven't made it on James' yet) > and.. to address David's concerns about extending atom:link... > > 2. Do I change thr:count and thr:when to extension elements instead > of attributes on atom:link? -0. Given that the whole s/id/ref/ discussion was only about a cosmetic change and that David's workaround syntax is plain ugly, I would rather see Atom Extension Attributes standardized, then having to resort to something like . If only atom:link were extensible... Regards, Andreas Sewe From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Mar 27 16:15:12 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FNz3Q-0000ep-Ak for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 16:15:12 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FNz3O-0003hw-Sp for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 16:15:12 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2RKsIw5005872; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 13:54:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2RKsIn8005871; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 13:54:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.204]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2RKsHqn005827 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 13:54:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from xmlhacker@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id z3so1422400nzf for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 12:54:11 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=SlggegEoJfQOBIJptNTefBZeIIubm/6psuEnTJjdQrX+ZZ9PAArxOcoUGiTdxwgyUtoB/Cz3HVtJymFiKe4ynXKAahPBi9k4idA0wCzAE7DBBfNLqtGrTTjMUl9F78PuSSgoebmXQEid1HYOKdc4HWbfcCcfN7agRna6koK8r/w= Received: by 10.65.235.4 with SMTP id m4mr2756912qbr; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 12:54:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.233.2 with HTTP; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 12:54:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 13:54:11 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "Atom Syntax" Subject: globally accessible atom.rnc file... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_11163_15069568.1143492851107" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 ------=_Part_11163_15069568.1143492851107 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline SGV5IEZvbGtzLAoKRm9yIGEgbWF0dGVyIG9mIGNvbnZlbmllbmNlIGZvciBteSBvd24gYXBwcyBJ J3ZlIHBvc3RlZCBVY2hlJ3MgdXBkYXRlZAphdG9tLnJuYyBmaWxlIHRvIGh0dHA6Ly9zMy5jaGFu bmVseG1sLmNvbS9zY2hlbWUvYXRvbS5ybmMKCklmIG5vdCBvYnZpb3VzLCBzMy5jaGFubmVseG1s LmNvbSBpcyBhIGNuYW1lIHJlY29yZCB0aGF0IHBvaW50cyBhdApzMy5hbWF6b25hd3MuY29tLiBz byB0aGUgc2FtZSBmaWxlIGlzIGF2YWlsYWJsZSB2aWEKaHR0cDovL3MzLmFtYXpvbmF3cy5jb20v c2NoZW1lL2F0b20ucm5jLiAgQXQgcHJlc2VudCB0aW1lIEkgaGF2ZW4ndCBpbnZva2VkCmFueSBs ZXZlbCBvZiBBQ0wgY29udHJvbCBvdmVyIHRoZSBmaWxlLCBidXQgdGhlcmUncyBubyBndWFyYW50 ZWUgdGhhdCBJCndvbid0IGludm9rZSBzdWNoIGNvbnRyb2wgYXMgdG8gb25seSBhbGxvdyByZXF1 ZXN0cyB0aGF0IG9yaWdpbmF0ZSBmcm9tCnMzLmNoYW5uZWx4bWwuY29tLiAgSSBjYW4ndCB0aGlu ayBvZiBhbnkgZ29vZCByZWFzb25zIHdoeSBJIHdvdWxkIHdhbnQgb3IKbmVlZCB0byBkbyB0aGlz LCBidXQgSSBhbHNvIGNhbid0IHRoaW5rIG9mIGFueSBnb29kIHJlYXNvbnMgd2h5IHVzaW5nIHRo ZQphbWF6b25hd3MgZG9tYWluIHdvdWxkIGJlIHByZWZlcmFibGUgb3ZlciBjaGFubmVseG1sLiAg Tm9uZS10aGUtbGVzcywgZWl0aGVyCm9uZSB3aWxsIHdvcmsuCgpJJ2xsIGtlZXAgdGhpcyBmaWxl IHVwLXRvLWRhdGUgYXMgb2Z0ZW4gYXMgbmVlZHMgYmUgc28gZmVlbCBmcmVlIHRvIHVzZSBpdApp biB5b3VyIHRvb2xzIGFuZCBhcHBzIGFzIHlvdSBzZWUgZml0LgoKRW5qb3kgOikKCi0tCjxNOkQv PgoKTS4gRGF2aWQgUGV0ZXJzb24KaHR0cDovL3d3dy54c2x0YmxvZy5jb20vCg== ------=_Part_11163_15069568.1143492851107 Content-Type: text/html; 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Mon, 27 Mar 2006 13:58:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from xmlhacker@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i21so491225wra for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 12:58:24 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Iu+c/zSVkzrIU9wT8WGrAUYMJx66CpizeJsUfgseoCKw3QM1TKVADMe4U7ylTnsaobb+gumAOGrzPvw5Txdhcc8z52NSVs/qObW6YXclAF9MC16v99BSlthB2yLWEm75jlzv3x4/wRHVRxmLOuY6Frk7KOncdvVyJVLrQv56T/s= Received: by 10.65.205.12 with SMTP id h12mr2895713qbq; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 12:58:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.233.2 with HTTP; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 12:58:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 13:58:24 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "Atom Syntax" Subject: Re: globally accessible atom.rnc file... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_11239_23909674.1143493104092" References: Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 00e94c813bef7832af255170dca19e36 ------=_Part_11239_23909674.1143493104092 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline b2gsIHRvIGdldCB5b3VyIGNyZWF0aXZlIGp1aWNlcyBmbG93aW5nIGFkZCA/dG9ycmVudCB0byB0 aGUgZW5kIG9mIGVpdGhlciBvZgp0aGVzZSBVUkkncy4KCk9uIDMvMjcvMDYsIE0uIERhdmlkIFBl dGVyc29uIDx4bWxoYWNrZXJAZ21haWwuY29tPiB3cm90ZToKPgo+ICBIZXkgRm9sa3MsCj4KPiBG b3IgYSBtYXR0ZXIgb2YgY29udmVuaWVuY2UgZm9yIG15IG93biBhcHBzIEkndmUgcG9zdGVkIFVj aGUncyB1cGRhdGVkCj4gYXRvbS5ybmMgZmlsZSB0byBodHRwOi8vczMuY2hhbm5lbHhtbC5jb20v c2NoZW1lL2F0b20ucm5jCj4KPiBJZiBub3Qgb2J2aW91cywgczMuY2hhbm5lbHhtbC5jb20gaXMg YSBjbmFtZSByZWNvcmQgdGhhdCBwb2ludHMgYXQKPiBzMy5hbWF6b25hd3MuY29tLiBzbyB0aGUg c2FtZSBmaWxlIGlzIGF2YWlsYWJsZSB2aWEKPiBodHRwOi8vczMuYW1hem9uYXdzLmNvbS9zY2hl bWUvYXRvbS5ybmMuICBBdCBwcmVzZW50IHRpbWUgSSBoYXZlbid0Cj4gaW52b2tlZCBhbnkgbGV2 ZWwgb2YgQUNMIGNvbnRyb2wgb3ZlciB0aGUgZmlsZSwgYnV0IHRoZXJlJ3Mgbm8gZ3VhcmFudGVl Cj4gdGhhdCBJIHdvbid0IGludm9rZSBzdWNoIGNvbnRyb2wgYXMgdG8gb25seSBhbGxvdyByZXF1 ZXN0cyB0aGF0IG9yaWdpbmF0ZQo+IGZyb20gczMuY2hhbm5lbHhtbC5jb20uICBJIGNhbid0IHRo aW5rIG9mIGFueSBnb29kIHJlYXNvbnMgd2h5IEkgd291bGQKPiB3YW50IG9yIG5lZWQgdG8gZG8g dGhpcywgYnV0IEkgYWxzbyBjYW4ndCB0aGluayBvZiBhbnkgZ29vZCByZWFzb25zIHdoeQo+IHVz aW5nIHRoZSBhbWF6b25hd3MgZG9tYWluIHdvdWxkIGJlIHByZWZlcmFibGUgb3ZlciBjaGFubmVs eG1sLgo+IE5vbmUtdGhlLWxlc3MsIGVpdGhlciBvbmUgd2lsbCB3b3JrLgo+Cj4gSSdsbCBrZWVw IHRoaXMgZmlsZSB1cC10by1kYXRlIGFzIG9mdGVuIGFzIG5lZWRzIGJlIHNvIGZlZWwgZnJlZSB0 byB1c2UgaXQKPiBpbiB5b3VyIHRvb2xzIGFuZCBhcHBzIGFzIHlvdSBzZWUgZml0Lgo+Cj4gRW5q b3kgOikKPgo+IC0tCj4gPE06RC8+Cj4KPiBNLiBEYXZpZCBQZXRlcnNvbgo+IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cu eHNsdGJsb2cuY29tLwo+CgoKCi0tCjxNOkQvPgoKTS4gRGF2aWQgUGV0ZXJzb24KaHR0cDovL3d3 dy54c2x0YmxvZy5jb20vCg== ------=_Part_11239_23909674.1143493104092 Content-Type: text/html; 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Wed, 29 Mar 2006 11:14:45 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:mime-version:content-type; b=kUmxTHJDx9oZ93kbpL7x6Sg3EqOVCdTX2hRKgivw7/eV0zEsRhZx3Fso3SeM6VtMcq+pZnSrcRZHKh4WgxNZKHfEi8prxBC5KNh2lauKmrMbjsWGO6RlMB1eo9DBVidJPTk8a6Nt8TWqVCAFk8WLDJHSzyz9UlrRWbx75Xpnju4= Received: by 10.64.208.19 with SMTP id f19mr732331qbg; Wed, 29 Mar 2006 11:14:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.233.2 with HTTP; Wed, 29 Mar 2006 11:14:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 12:14:45 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "Atom Syntax" Subject: Demokritos now running via http://understandingatom.com Cc: "Sean Lyndersay" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_6866_9386017.1143659685198" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 14582b0692e7f70ce7111d04db3781c8 ------=_Part_6866_9386017.1143659685198 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline aHR0cDovL3VuZGVyc3RhbmRpbmdhdG9tLmNvbS8gKG1hZGUgbW9yZSBldmlkZW50IHZpYQpodHRw Oi8vdW5kZXJzdGFuZGluZ2F0b20uY29tL2ludHJvc3BlY3Rpb24gKHRoYW5rcyBTeWx2YWluISA6 KSkKCkluIHJlZ2FyZHMKdG8gaG93IHRoaXMgcmVsYXRlcyB0byB0aGUgcHJvZ3Jlc3Mgb2YgQXRv bWljUlNTLCBpdHMgd2hhdCBJIGFtCmxhYmVsaW5nICJ0ZW1wb3JhcnkgY29tcHJvbWlzZSIgd2hp bGUgSSB3YWl0IGZvciBJcm9uUHl0aG9uJ3MgZGlyZWN0CmltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9uIG9mIHRoZSBz b2NrZXQgbW9kdWxlIChtb3JlIGNvcnJlY3RseSAoSSBiZWxpZXZlKQpfc29ja2V0KSwgd2hpY2gg Q0FOIGJlIGltcGxlbWVudGVkIHRocm91Z2ggdmFyaW91cyBhdmFpbGFibGUgaGFja3MgKHNlZToK aHR0cDovL3RyYWMudW5kZXJzdGFuZGluZ2F0b20uY29tL3dpa2kvSXJvblB5dGhvbi9Nb25vL1R1 dG9yaWFscy9TaW1wbGVIVFRQU2VydmVyCndoaWNoIHRoZW4KbGlua3MgdG8KaHR0cDovL3NwYXJj cy5rYWlzdC5hYy5rci9+dGludXZpZWwvZmVweS9ob3d0by9zaW1wbGVodHRwc2VydmVyLWlyb25w eXRob24tbW9uby1ob3d0by5odG1sKQpidXQgSSB3b3VsZCByYXRoZXIgbm90IHJlbHkgb24gaGFj a3MgYXMgZnJvbSB3aGF0IEkgdW5kZXJzdGFuZCB0aGlzIGlzCmFuIG9idmlvdXMgbWlzc2luZwpw aWVjZSB0aGF0IHRoZSBNUyBJUCBmb2xrcyB3aWxsIGltcGxlbWVudCBpbiBvbmUgb2YgdGhlIG5l eHQgYmV0YQpyZWxlYXNlcyAoYmV0YSA1IGlzIGR1ZSBvdXQgZmFpcmx5IHNvb24uLi4gbm90IHN1 cmUgaWYgc3VwcG9ydCB3aWxsCm1ha2UgaXQgaW4gdGhpcyByZWxlYXNlLCBidXQgd2hlbiBpdCBk b2VzLCBhbmQgSSBoYXZlIERlbW9rcml0b3MKcnVubmluZyB2aWEgTVMuTkVUCiBhbmQgTW9ubyBJ IHdpbGwgcGluZyB0aGlzIHRocmVhZCBiYWNrIGFuZCBsZXQgeW91IGtub3cpLiAgVGhpcyBjb3Vs ZAphbHNvIGJlIGltcGxlbWVudGVkIGRpcmVjdGx5IHRocm91Z2ggdGhlIEZDTCwgYnV0IGFnYWlu LCB3b3VsZCByYXRoZXIKbm90IHJlbHkgb24gYSBoYWNrIHRoYXQgd291bGQgaW1tZWRpYXRlbGx5 IGJyZWFrIGNvbXBsaWFuY2Ugd2l0aApDUHl0aG9uLikKClNvIHRoaXMgcGllY2Ugb2YgdGhlIG92 ZXJhbGwgcHV6emxlIGlzIGEgc2ltcGxlIChob3BlZnVsbHksIGFueXdheSkgd2FpdGluZwpnYW1l LiAgVGhlcmUncyBwbGVudHkgb2Ygb3RoZXIgcGllY2VzIHRvIHdvcmsgb24gc28gaXRzIG5vdCBo b2xkaW5nIGJhY2sKcHJvZ3Jlc3MgaW4gYW55IHdheSBieSB3YWl0aW5nIGl0IG91dC4KCkhvd2V2 ZXIsIGlmIGFueSBvZiB5b3Ugd291bGQgbGlrZSBhbiBhY2NvdW50IG9uIHRoZQptYWNoaW5lIHJ1 bm5pbmcgRGVtb2tyaXRvcyB2aWEgdGhlIGh0dHA6Ly91bmRlcnN0YW5kaW5nYXRvbS5jb20vIGlu dGVyZmFjZQooYSBMaW51eCBib3gpIHN1Y2ggdGhhdCB5b3UgY2FuIGJlZ2luIHRvIHBsYXkgd2l0 aCB0aGlzLCBzaW1wbHkgYWRkIGEgdGlja2V0CndpdGggYW4gb2J2aW91cyBzdWJqZWN0IGxpbmUg dG8gdGhlIFRyYWMgaW50ZXJmYWNlIC0tCmh0dHA6Ly90cmFjLnVuZGVyc3RhbmRpbmdhdG9tLmNv bS9uZXd0aWNrZXQgLS0gYW5kIEkgd2lsbCBnZXQgaXQgdGFrZW4gY2FyZQpvZi4KCi0tCjxNOkQv PgoKTS4gRGF2aWQgUGV0ZXJzb24KaHR0cDovL3d3dy54c2x0YmxvZy5jb20vCg== ------=_Part_6866_9386017.1143659685198 Content-Type: text/html; 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Wed, 29 Mar 2006 16:11:02 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FOhwT-0000sF-0J for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Mar 2006 16:11:02 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2TKvtNH064709; Wed, 29 Mar 2006 13:57:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2TKvtCQ064708; Wed, 29 Mar 2006 13:57:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.237]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2TKvsH5064702 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2006 13:57:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i32so265948wra for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2006 12:57:53 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=q2YgRjM4aCvExzxQ0T6ZroVztImS9xo5Uk40+bNdK8YmAbkF/4PMx72lfCQjzPqksIoT4wDNNt3O8iVyMB6y1zzB6Htu0X9IB9m8t0BiTQIDV+/6Jgi1vZavFhk7aBhiUR30NY9/p8GVXh/OuyKsT5Z4v7gGQt0ORpAvyZRTeFk= Received: by 10.54.158.14 with SMTP id g14mr1333346wre; Wed, 29 Mar 2006 12:57:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.101? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 33sm379444wra.2006.03.29.12.57.52; Wed, 29 Mar 2006 12:57:52 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <442AF4C9.5010002@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 12:57:45 -0800 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Changing feed thread References: <44197B48.3070006@defuze.org> <4423157D.1040702@gmail.com> <4423ACF1.6090600@defuze.org> <4424397A.9000305@gmail.com> <44243B34.5000501@defuze.org> <4424540C.7070006@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Given the response to this, in-reply-to/@id will be renamed to in-reply-to/@ref. thr:count and thr:when will remain as currently defined. - James James Holderness wrote: > > James M Snell wrote: >> 1. Do I change to ? > > I don't know enough to care what you call those attributes. And it's a > long way before we'll go live with anything so if you need to change > attribute names it wouldn't bother me in the least. > >> 2. Do I change thr:count and thr:when to extension elements instead of >> attributes on atom:link? > > I currently have no interest in supporting either of those so it doesn't > matter to me. > > Regards > James > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 30 21:05:47 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FP91H-0001bh-F8 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:05:47 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FP91F-00057V-VI for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:05:47 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2V1mk8d040192; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 18:48:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2V1mkvv040191; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 18:48:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail4.exchange.microsoft.com (mail4.exchange.microsoft.com [131.107.1.99]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2V1mjH3040184 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 18:48:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from seanlynd@exchange.microsoft.com) Received: from df-gwy-05.exchange.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.63.146]) by mail4.exchange.microsoft.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 30 Mar 2006 17:48:40 -0800 Received: from df-hub-02.exchange.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.52) by df-gwy-05.exchange.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.63.146) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.0.516.4; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 17:48:39 -0800 Received: from df-beagle-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.69.136]) by df-hub-02.exchange.corp.microsoft.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 30 Mar 2006 17:48:39 -0800 From: Sean Lyndersay To: Tim Bray , David Powell CC: Atom Syntax Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 17:46:36 -0800 Subject: RE: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? Thread-Topic: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? Thread-Index: AcZOq5Bcclp7+1HMS/Cee/ZnFfgKnwFuR14g Message-ID: <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> In-Reply-To: <692BD006-4131-4E84-91F7-22F43494C2EE@sun.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RulesExecuted: True X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Mar 2006 01:48:39.0661 (UTC) FILETIME=[3BB251D0:01C65465] x-microsoft-aal: 31 x-microsoft-cal: 13 x-microsoft-multilevel-authmechanism: Custom Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id k2V1mjH3040186 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b This is unfortunate, because HTML itself only allows elements in the header (one per page). So if anyone wants to build a client that displays more than one item at a time using a standard HTML renderer (and most client render HTML using someone else's renderer, not their own), they have to go groveling in HTML to do URL fixup (or use iframes). In my own case (IE7) case, this isn't that big a deal because we have to grovel in HTML for many other reasons, but I suspect it'd be pain for other clients. My own reading goes like this: Since xml:base is an XML concept, it should apply only to relative references in XML content (including XHTML). From the XML perspective, the HTML content is just a string, so the xml:base should not apply. Sean -----Original Message----- From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Tim Bray Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:49 AM To: David Powell Cc: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? On Mar 23, 2006, at 10:03 AM, David Powell wrote: > > > xml:base applies to type="xhtml" content, but I'm not sure whether it > is supposed to apply to escaped type="html" content? I reckon that it > does. RFC4287, section 2: Any element defined by this specification MAY have an xml:base attribute [W3C.REC-xmlbase-20010627]. When xml:base is used in an Atom Document, it serves the function described in section 5.1.1 of [RFC3986], establishing the base URI (or IRI) for resolving any relative references found within the effective scope of the xml:base attribute. Seems pretty clear to me. Yes, the base URI of that HTML is now whatever xml:base said it was -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 30 21:46:33 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FP9ej-0005GK-RR for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:46:33 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FP9ei-0006gI-BD for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:46:33 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2V2VFoA041908; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 19:31:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2V2VF7o041907; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 19:31:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k2V2VDIj041897 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 19:31:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 31 Mar 2006 02:31:07 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-221-246.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.221.246] by mail.gmx.net (mp036) with SMTP; 31 Mar 2006 04:31:07 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 04:31:12 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? Message-ID: <20060331023112.GI28107@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <692BD006-4131-4E84-91F7-22F43494C2EE@sun.com> <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2V2VFoA041908 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a * Sean Lyndersay [2006-03-31 04:00]: >This is unfortunate, because HTML itself only allows >elements in the header (one per page). So if anyone wants to >build a client that displays more than one item at a time using >a standard HTML renderer (and most client render HTML using >someone else's renderer, not their own), they have to go >groveling in HTML to do URL fixup (or use iframes). That=E2=80=99s exactly the problem currently facing Liferea. However, exempting `@type=3D'html'` content from xml:base processing won=E2=80=99t help. If the items can come from multiple feeds, such as is supported by Liferea, then mixing items from an Atom feed that uses xml:base and other feeds automatically runs into the same issue. In that scenario, either the tag soup from the other feeds must be fixed up so the view can be rendered as XHTML (which supports xml:base in content), or URL fixup needs to be done on the content from the Atom feed so it can be passed to a tag soup renderer. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 30 22:51:30 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPAfa-0000Yt-Cx for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:51:30 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPAfY-00018p-Jr for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:51:30 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2V3Yo6M044206; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 20:34:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2V3YoDm044205; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 20:34:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.192]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2V3Yndu044199 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 20:34:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from xmlhacker@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id q3so686903nzb for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 19:34:48 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=bqeefKwI++ESG4gY7/CnuhqMT48rnFxVehVIMcvMEx2nEYr4v4tiFVPCV/doUVHvlgaEDc9o4qKDgpXgOww3acipNsflMR27onVgDIPT8w3BGyWh2xL8u7p8ayApZLdIEcTaWEGws/9UwkgRTZyxwG8hixjrIoIoza36XWcKnPQ= Received: by 10.65.186.16 with SMTP id n16mr323429qbp; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 19:34:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.233.2 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 19:34:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 20:34:48 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "Sean Lyndersay" Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? Cc: "Tim Bray" , "David Powell" , "Atom Syntax" In-Reply-To: <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_16537_4404612.1143776088031" References: <692BD006-4131-4E84-91F7-22F43494C2EE@sun.com> <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ce732c7d36989a1bd55104ba259c40a1 ------=_Part_16537_4404612.1143776088031 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline SSBoYXZlIHRvIHdvbmRlciB3aHkgeG1sOmJhc2Ugd291bGQgYXBwbHkgdG8gYW55dGhpbmcgb3Ro ZXIgdGhhbiB0aGUKaGFyZGxpbmUgc2NoZW1hIHNwZWNpZmljIEBocmVmIGF0dHJpYnV0ZSB2YWx1 ZXMgb2YgdGhlIHN0cnVjdHVyZWQgZG9jdW1lbnQKaW4gd2hpY2ggdGhlIHNjaGVtYSBkaXJlY3Rs 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b=AdZlv/OBHmjPXc2e75InANQ49kBram/0Iy3oAfCTza1qLWMpkFbadZS1S+WnkYmz7RVBZl5Lge+FEusDMKI4f4Q1kWlKFph8VqW4UNV8EHE9WnkcTMK9/K9kadNVe9t5K+BMUSs5pilCNKrSZRc5+YnpkfLtbJMl/+SIDEAXQEc= Received: by 10.64.156.8 with SMTP id d8mr1135qbe; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 19:38:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.233.2 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 19:38:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 20:38:17 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "Sean Lyndersay" Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? Cc: "Tim Bray" , "David Powell" , "Atom Syntax" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_16605_5280059.1143776297618" References: <692BD006-4131-4E84-91F7-22F43494C2EE@sun.com> <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 578c2c9d0cb01ffe6e1ca36540edd070 ------=_Part_16605_5280059.1143776297618 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline PiBAaHJlZiBhdHRyaWJ1dGUgKm9yIG90aGVyIGF0dHJpYnV0ZSBvciBlbGVtZW50cyB3aG8ncyB2 YWx1ZSBDQU4gb3IgTVVTVCBiZQphIFVSSS9JUkkqCgpPbiAzLzMwLzA2LCBNLiBEYXZpZCBQZXRl cnNvbiA8eG1saGFja2VyQGdtYWlsLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cj4KPiBJIGhhdmUgdG8gd29uZGVyIHdo eSB4bWw6YmFzZSB3b3VsZCBhcHBseSB0byBhbnl0aGluZyBvdGhlciB0aGFuIHRoZQo+IGhhcmRs 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(PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 20:42:48 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "Sean Lyndersay" Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? Cc: "Tim Bray" , "David Powell" , "Atom Syntax" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_16657_607523.1143776568634" References: <692BD006-4131-4E84-91F7-22F43494C2EE@sun.com> <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7f3fa64b9851a63d7f3174ef64114da7 ------=_Part_16657_607523.1143776568634 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline T29wcHMgPiBDYW5hZGlhbiAqTSpvdW50KmllKgoKU29ycnkgVGltISA6KQoKT24gMy8zMC8wNiwg TS4gRGF2aWQgUGV0ZXJzb24gPHhtbGhhY2tlckBnbWFpbC5jb20+IHdyb3RlOgo+Cj4gPiBAaHJl ZiBhdHRyaWJ1dGUgKm9yIG90aGVyIGF0dHJpYnV0ZSBvciBlbGVtZW50cyB3aG8ncyB2YWx1ZSBD QU4gb3IgTVVTVAo+IGJlIGEgVVJJL0lSSSoKPgo+Cj4gT24gMy8zMC8wNiwgTS4gRGF2aWQgUGV0 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4.43) id 1FPBUw-0003B1-If for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 23:44:34 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPBUu-0003SH-5D for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 23:44:34 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2V4YbwZ045897; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:34:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2V4YbWZ045896; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:34:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.237]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2V4YaY1045887 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:34:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so865006wri for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 20:34:36 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=KOmPMo501VoophoJYSiDIN0IfRvET6ROLNllR/mUdhNhtuJFCTGtBouSxX0l9eEHhmthRzaDZ9kyn9rXhcO/Ppi4P57gAhyzPib1IN5eXSLqPGpj0LSB+mlnd4+LplLBb0//mRRJrvBIsJmvvCB87SulxjJbPYsm3x1u09Yn3PQ= Received: by 10.54.126.16 with SMTP id y16mr16250wrc; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 20:34:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.101? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 27sm403314wrl.2006.03.30.20.34.35; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 20:34:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <442CB14E.8000107@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 20:34:22 -0800 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? References: <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> In-Reply-To: <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c In retrospect, it likely would have been a good idea for us to have covered this in the Atom spec. The definition of xml:base does include a statement that "[t]he base URI for a URI reference appearing in text content is the base URI of the element containing the text." That would include URI references contained within the escaped HTML markup of Text constructs and the content element. - James Sean Lyndersay wrote: > > This is unfortunate, because HTML itself only allows elements in the header (one per page). So if anyone wants to build a client that displays more than one item at a time using a standard HTML renderer (and most client render HTML using someone else's renderer, not their own), they have to go groveling in HTML to do URL fixup (or use iframes). > > In my own case (IE7) case, this isn't that big a deal because we have to grovel in HTML for many other reasons, but I suspect it'd be pain for other clients. > > My own reading goes like this: Since xml:base is an XML concept, it should apply only to relative references in XML content (including XHTML). From the XML perspective, the HTML content is just a string, so the xml:base should not apply. > > Sean > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Tim Bray > Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:49 AM > To: David Powell > Cc: Atom Syntax > Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? > > > > On Mar 23, 2006, at 10:03 AM, David Powell wrote: > >> >> xml:base applies to type="xhtml" content, but I'm not sure whether it >> is supposed to apply to escaped type="html" content? I reckon that it >> does. > > RFC4287, section 2: > > Any element defined by this specification MAY have an xml:base > attribute [W3C.REC-xmlbase-20010627]. When xml:base is used in an > Atom Document, it serves the function described in section 5.1.1 of > [RFC3986], establishing the base URI (or IRI) for resolving any > relative references found within the effective scope of the xml:base > attribute. > > Seems pretty clear to me. Yes, the base URI of that HTML is now > whatever xml:base said it was -Tim > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 31 00:14:47 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPByB-0001cK-U8 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 00:14:47 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPByA-0004wu-AW for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 00:14:47 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2V50rmJ047261; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:00:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2V50rgA047260; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:00:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.199]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2V50qUw047254 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:00:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from xmlhacker@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id q3so708733nzb for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:00:51 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=GouMV69ndVgC7bScl2BDtWLGPbgIFEYUZWOVgNAYd2g8Y7jesR2Tli9doVYZBqh1DNZwKhsh7OPVZzeurvh8HphLPXlb9UUY2xhRCZWDNPSInJ93rE1cKnmRt44bpm8m6+viM5Y6euBuZLsTeMaCnmvtLzHOOnypLg3Z3HXqo0E= Received: by 10.64.142.13 with SMTP id p13mr29688qbd; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:00:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.233.2 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:00:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:00:51 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "James M Snell" Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? 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k2V593J8047453; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:09:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.200.83]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2V592uF047446 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:09:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from x-antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-177-6-93.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.177.6.93]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <2006033105085601300eaipae>; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 05:08:56 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.3) In-Reply-To: References: <692BD006-4131-4E84-91F7-22F43494C2EE@sun.com> <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:08:55 -0700 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.3) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 00e94c813bef7832af255170dca19e36 On Mar 30, 2006, at 8:34 PM, M. David Peterson wrote: > ...the content element can be basically anything as long as its either > > - non-escaped plain text with a @type value set to text, > - escaped text,with a @type set to a valid 'text' mime-type > - enitity escaped with @type set to html, > - xhtml wrapped in a properly xhtml namespaced div with @type set > to xhtml, > - base64 encoded with @type set to the proper media type, or > - its xml with @type set to a proper XML mime-type. > > In each of these cases, the only one that shold have even a remote > chance of the current value of the @xml:base in current context > applying to is inline xml. ... > The escaped HTML content contained within the content element that > David was originally concerned with is more than likely a copy of > all or part of the elements and content contained inside the body > tag of the external document referenced by an associated link > element, and therefore no guarentee that the xml:base of the atom > feed is going to be anywhere even close to accurate. On what basis are you concluding that Atom publishers are more likely to be smart enough to set xml:base correctly when publishing inline XML than when publishing escaped HTML? What if the source material is tag soup HTML? You could clean it up and turn it into XHTML or publish it as is as escaped HTML. Either option is valid, and may be preferable in some situations. I don't see how any assumptions can be made about the publisher's ability to set xml:base correctly based on the content type. If you're assuming that xml:base is going to be set only at the top of the Atom document, then it may very well fail to be correct for a lot of the content. But xml:base may also be set at on the entry or content element, and could easily be set correctly based on the publisher's knowledge of the appropriate base URI for the content. Anyway,theoretical arguments aside, there are two questions to answer for the real world: 1) If you're publishing Atom, in which content @types can you use relative URIs with reasonable confidence that consumers will apply the base URI correctly? 2) If you're consuming Atom and you encounter a relative URI, how should you choose the appropriate base URI with which to resolve it? I think there are only three remotely possible answers to #2: xml:base (including the URI from which the feed was retrieved if xml:base isn't explicitly defined), the URI of the self link, and the URI of the alternate link. Given that Atom explicitly supports xml:base, if it's explicitly defined, it's difficult to justify ignoring it in favor of anything else. If xml:base isn't explicitly defined, there may be some justification for using the self link rather than the URI from which the feed was retrieved. It's sloppy on the publisher's part, but might be more likely to succeed in practice. The alternate link is only a possible choice if there is at least one alternate link, and if either there is only one, or there are more than one, and all of them point to documents in the same directory. I'd say it's a fairly weak choice. Conclusion: you've got to resolve relative URIs with respect to SOMETHING, and clearly the best choice is xml:base if it's explicitly defined. If not, the self link and the URI from which the feed is retrieved each have some merit. If that's the correct answer for #2, then in a reasonably perfect world, the answer to #1 should be that relative URIs should be safe anywhere as long as you're explicitly (and correctly!) defining xml:base. In the real world, I'd guess that more consuming applications will get it right in inline XML than in escaped HTML. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 31 00:30:29 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPCDN-00007z-Jh for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 00:30:29 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPCDM-0005kA-5e for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 00:30:29 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2V5KqHU047732; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:20:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2V5KqGs047731; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:20:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.230]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2V5Kpmh047725 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:20:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so869850wri for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:20:50 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=FSxKVWSTJMtucKs55W8hILRIWVS1MXFkvhWZA/rBl3fkwpVo2weNemuLHM3EzEY/pEJBLqWcrPLt6WOn+a2EGDcLZukvmQcQpq2esOsrKmpj0xAnc54siw3nBBV9lPuLrXHtCSWLR6z7dd7Z2w30mqwRaC6cmuvoV/0JjyMw1OA= Received: by 10.54.148.10 with SMTP id v10mr48579wrd; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:20:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.101? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 35sm21998wra.2006.03.30.21.20.50; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:20:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <442CBC28.4030903@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:20:40 -0800 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? References: <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> <442CB14E.8000107@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7fa173a723009a6ca8ce575a65a5d813 I would agree that, as a best practice, the xml:base should appear on the content element, but implementations need to be prepared to use whatever the in-scope URI is (e.g. if no xml:base is specified, relative refs in the content will be relative to Content-Location or the feeds Request URI). In other words, consumers of the feed *have* to assume that the current xml:base in context is going to be correct and publishers of the feed simply have to be responsible for Doing The Right Thing. - James M. David Peterson wrote: > Then it should be a best practice that if they invoke > this, the xml:base value should be set upon the "element containing the text", in this case, the content element. > Obviously > you can't simply assume that the current xml:base in context has > any direct relation, and therefore value to the current entry/content in context, as, using Aristotle's use case (and a billion others just like it > -- if not a billion now, it won't be too long before that number is > quite realistic, and in fact only scratching the Atom feed surface of > the not too distant > future), there is no way that one can simply assume that the current @xml:base value is legit. > > > It seems to me that this current definition of xml:base didn't take into > consideration the fact that the world would soon be revolving around XML > mashups, all of which can contain any number of possible combinations of URI's of which may have absolutely nothing even remotely in common with another. > > > Seems like maybe its time for a quick update to the xml:base definition, > as this is not just an issue that effects Atom syndication feeds. > > On 3/30/06, * James M Snell* > wrote: > > > In retrospect, it likely would have been a good idea for us to have > covered this in the Atom spec. The definition of xml:base does include > a statement that "[t]he base URI for a URI reference appearing in text > content is the base URI of the element containing the text." That would > include URI references contained within the escaped HTML markup of Text > constructs and the content element. > > - James > > Sean Lyndersay wrote: > > > > This is unfortunate, because HTML itself only allows > elements in the header (one per page). So if anyone wants to build a > client that displays more than one item at a time using a standard > HTML renderer (and most client render HTML using someone else's > renderer, not their own), they have to go groveling in HTML to do > URL fixup (or use iframes). > > > > In my own case (IE7) case, this isn't that big a deal because we > have to grovel in HTML for many other reasons, but I suspect it'd be > pain for other clients. > > > > My own reading goes like this: Since xml:base is an XML concept, > it should apply only to relative references in XML content > (including XHTML). From the XML perspective, the HTML content is > just a string, so the xml:base should not apply. > > > > Sean > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org > > [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org > ] On Behalf Of Tim Bray > > Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:49 AM > > To: David Powell > > Cc: Atom Syntax > > Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? > > > > > > > > On Mar 23, 2006, at 10:03 AM, David Powell wrote: > > > >> > >> xml:base applies to type="xhtml" content, but I'm not sure whether it > >> is supposed to apply to escaped type="html" content? I reckon > that it > >> does. > > > > RFC4287, section 2: > > > > Any element defined by this specification MAY have an xml:base > > attribute [W3C.REC-xmlbase-20010627]. When xml:base is used in an > > Atom Document, it serves the function described in section > 5.1.1 of > > [RFC3986], establishing the base URI (or IRI) for resolving any > > relative references found within the effective scope of the > xml:base > > attribute. > > > > Seems pretty clear to me. Yes, the base URI of that HTML is now > > whatever xml:base said it was -Tim > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > M. David Peterson > http://www.xsltblog.com/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 31 00:34:44 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPCHU-0001OP-1G for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 00:34:44 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPCHT-0005ry-Lr for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 00:34:44 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2V5O6FD047805; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:24:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2V5O6h0047802; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:24:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.200.83]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2V5O4qY047794 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:24:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from x-antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-177-6-93.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.177.6.93]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <2006033105235901300ecorre>; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 05:23:59 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.3) In-Reply-To: References: <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> <442CB14E.8000107@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <1D1A9D78-09E2-4751-8D7C-5E2D8846D5C3@geckotribe.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:23:58 -0700 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.3) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f On Mar 30, 2006, at 10:00 PM, M. David Peterson wrote: > Then it should be a best practice that if they invoke this, the > xml:base value should be set upon the "element containing the > text", in this case, the content element. Obviously you can't > simply assume that the current xml:base in context has any direct > relation, and therefore value to the current entry/content in > context, as, using Aristotle's use case (and a billion others just > like it -- if not a billion now, it won't be too long before that > number is quite realistic, and in fact only scratching the Atom > feed surface of the not too distant future), there is no way that > one can simply assume that the current @xml:base value is legit. I disagree. The best practice should be to set xml:base explicitly in any document using relative URIs, and at any point in the document where the relative URIs appear, ensure that the xml:base in context is the correct base URI by overriding it if necessary. If this practice is followed, and only if this practice is followed, then consumers will be able to reliably resolve relative URIs. I see no justification for assuming that the xml:base in context is invalid and using some other base URI just because xml:base is set somewhere other than the containing element. It's a pretty sorry world if we not only assume, but operate on the assumption that publishers are and will continue to be that inept. Just to amplify one point: > you can't simply assume that the current xml:base in context has > any direct relation... What you can't simply assume is that it the xml:base in context does NOT have any direct relation to the content. Part of the point of XML is that we'll all be better off if consumers rely on publishers doing things correctly (in this case, getting xml:base right) and hold publishers to it until they get it right. Antone From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 31 00:34:46 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPCHW-0001Od-LB for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 00:34:46 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPCHT-0005rx-03 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 00:34:46 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2V5OWd4047818; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:24:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2V5OW2J047817; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:24:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav16.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.88]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2V5OVVZ047811 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:24:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:24:30 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.79.77 by BAY106-DAV16.phx.gbl with DAV; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 05:24:27 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.79.77] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 07:24:26 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Mar 2006 05:24:30.0619 (UTC) FILETIME=[6311AEB0:01C65483] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Sean Lyndersay wrote: > In my own case (IE7) case, this isn't that big a deal because > we have to grovel in HTML for many other reasons, but I suspect > it'd be pain for other clients. Looking at the results of the Atom XmlBaseConformanceTests [1] mosts of the clients tested seemed capable of handling relative references inside HTML to some extent. Even the ones that don't necessarily pass all the tests at least get enough right to suggest that they're on the right track. IE7 is actually one of the few clients that I would consider to have failed outright. Is the latest beta any better at handling xml:base or do these problems still exist? Regards James [1] http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/XmlBaseConformanceTests From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 31 00:40:39 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPCND-0005nu-AT for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 00:40:39 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPCNB-00061j-Up for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 00:40:39 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2V5V2Yi048206; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:31:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2V5V2Un048205; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:31:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.231]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2V5V1Ox048199 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:31:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so871118wri for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:31:00 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=OdPib0EFvlwn0qL5vqXSw8bid2Oo0V+v7XN6RhsZ28so0dfjkx1qkyWGCOmOv6wsEGPx7JiHbfYtsg3j+2Hsw9e0Mr35ieLjFLLfPoukoFV2ODkxI2sVa6Qhz66vHyL45+ger34yeHuBgijKUDA9K83l+Y5J09fhIKvjsjSD9xw= Received: by 10.54.82.9 with SMTP id f9mr61088wrb; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:30:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.101? ( [67.181.222.86]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 24sm443092wrl.2006.03.30.21.30.58; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:30:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <442CBE89.8020208@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:30:49 -0800 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? References: <692BD006-4131-4E84-91F7-22F43494C2EE@sun.com> <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 1.9 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa Antone Roundy wrote: >[snip] > 2) If you're consuming Atom and you encounter a relative URI, how should > you choose the appropriate base URI with which to resolve it? > > I think there are only three remotely possible answers to #2: xml:base > (including the URI from which the feed was retrieved if xml:base isn't > explicitly defined), the URI of the self link, and the URI of the > alternate link. Given that Atom explicitly supports xml:base, if it's > explicitly defined, it's difficult to justify ignoring it in favor of > anything else. > There is no basis in any of the specs for using the URI of the self or alternate link as a base uri for resolving relative references in the content. The process for resolving relative references is very clearly defined. > If xml:base isn't explicitly defined, there may be some justification > for using the self link rather than the URI from which the feed was > retrieved. It's sloppy on the publisher's part, but might be more > likely to succeed in practice. > -1. > The alternate link is only a possible choice if there is at least one > alternate link, and if either there is only one, or there are more than > one, and all of them point to documents in the same directory. I'd say > it's a fairly weak choice. > > Conclusion: you've got to resolve relative URIs with respect to > SOMETHING, and clearly the best choice is xml:base if it's explicitly > defined. If not, the self link and the URI from which the feed is > retrieved each have some merit. > Wrong. You've got to resolve relative URI's with respect to the proper base URI. Let's reserve the sloppy guessing hacks for specs that actually need them. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 31 00:42:11 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPCOh-0006cj-Tc for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 00:42:11 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPCOf-000636-5f for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 00:42:11 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2V5Pvwk047870; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:25:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2V5PvxZ047869; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:25:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.201]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2V5Ptku047863 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:25:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from xmlhacker@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id q3so715546nzb for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:25:55 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=lD2cLDWViCqgVUeZIKX++dQXbUkwZbRt7/WzO5+/6KiFJQ7OT0XhSxOQxuG8czPP+05/TWULOSGsbV+ze0RZoHtiMEtZhxS9sqSgDEz7yTULQl2bA1FXcHd720ek4BQyoiUwMmmSNFycAIXlZTGBDCNqztOZFYf/Uz1QS6yloZw= Received: by 10.65.218.4 with SMTP id v4mr44738qbq; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:25:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.233.2 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:25:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:25:55 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "Antone Roundy" Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? 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with ESMTP id k2V5a5Y2048553 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:36:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from xmlhacker@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id q3so718332nzb for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:36:05 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=tLDrQekEIzkk0Zp6BbCxepbBJcsxmaNEAj1OKQ/s8BjXBq5PqJI/0p+2NWZxMa/0+QvHpjUmD726BzdUrAChfauCnbZXoR0doGh/QEE8n2hQFUWiuv+0xgdmL32xfBfahkuhNLKV4iF1NZglE4cmTrSNcQWOg+jDhWJQFzYsk3c= Received: by 10.65.43.12 with SMTP id v12mr61685qbj; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:36:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.233.2 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:36:05 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:36:05 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "James M Snell" Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? Cc: "Atom Syntax" In-Reply-To: <442CBC28.4030903@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_17699_29708202.1143783365401" References: <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> <442CB14E.8000107@gmail.com> <442CBC28.4030903@gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 515708a075ffdf0a79d1c83b601e2afd ------=_Part_17699_29708202.1143783365401 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline WWVhaCwgYWdyZWVkLi4uIEluIGZhY3QsIEkgdGhpbmsgYXQgdGhpcyBzdGFnZSBvZiB0aGUgZ2Ft ZSBteSBpbmV4cGVyaWVuY2UKaW4gdW5kZXJzdGFuZGluZyBhbGwgdGhhdCBtdXN0IGJlIGNvbnNp ZGVyZWQgZHVyaW5nIHRoZSBkZXZlbG9wbWVudCBvZiBhCnN0YW5kYXJkIGFzIGZhciByZWFjaGlu ZyBhcyBBdG9tIGJvdGggaXMgYW5kLCBldmVuIG1vcmUgc28sIHdpbGwgYmUgaXMKYmVnaW5uaW5n 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Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:42:29 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=cIFK2YWoolFKrfnQKZtIUqXkAT6yiCM8nmP/PpjGKhA0eJhl7yyKR5tQp5qNnAgIz7bNKD2nRmBOPatxFGyx4Lh6DWCCXfXyimAV3HNbrxTkSQmkM27HKgESKyuD3q7ICTVWOJJghFmEbCMxFRPya0Vg4jPfrpcCDpAheMOz4pw= Received: by 10.65.254.11 with SMTP id g11mr46368qbs; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:42:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.233.2 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:42:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:42:29 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "Antone Roundy" Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <1D1A9D78-09E2-4751-8D7C-5E2D8846D5C3@geckotribe.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_17747_23676975.1143783749534" References: <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> <442CB14E.8000107@gmail.com> <1D1A9D78-09E2-4751-8D7C-5E2D8846D5C3@geckotribe.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5ebbf074524e58e662bc8209a6235027 ------=_Part_17747_23676975.1143783749534 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline SSBzcGVha2luZyBpbiB0ZXJtcyBvZiBtYXNodXBzLi4uIElmIGEgZmVlZCBjb21lcyBmcm9tIG9u ZSBzb3VyY2UsIHRoZW4gSQp3b3VsZCBhZ3JlZS4uLiAgYnV0IG1hc2h1cHMgZnJvbSBib3RoIGEg c3luZGljYXRpb24gYXMgd2VsbCBhcyBhbgphcHBsaWNhdGlvbiBzdGFuZHBvaW50IGFyZSBiZWNv bWUgdGhlIHByaW1hcnkgZm9jdXMgb2YgRVZFUlkgbWFqb3IgdmVuZG9yLgogSXRzIGluIHRoaXMg c2NlbmFyaW8gdGhhdCBJIHNlZSB0aGUgcHJvYmxlbSBvZiBhc3N1bWluZyB0aGUKeG1sOmJhc2Ug aW4gY3VycmVudCBjb250ZXh0IGhhcyBhbnkgdmFsdWUgd2hhdHNvZXZlci4KClBpY2sgYSBwbGFu ZXQsIGFueSBwbGFuZXQsIGFuZCBteSBwb2ludCBzdWRkZW5seSBhbmQgaW1tZWRpYXR0ZWxseSBi ZWNvbWVzCnJlbGF2ZW50LgoKT24gMy8zMC8wNiwgQW50b25lIFJvdW5keSA8eC1hbnRvbmVAZ2Vj a290cmliZS5jb20+IHdyb3RlOgo+Cj4KPiBPbiBNYXIgMzAsIDIwMDYsIGF0IDEwOjAwIFBNLCBN LiBEYXZpZCBQZXRlcnNvbiB3cm90ZToKPiA+IFRoZW4gaXQgc2hvdWxkIGJlIGEgYmVzdCBwcmFj dGljZSB0aGF0IGlmIHRoZXkgaW52b2tlIHRoaXMsIHRoZQo+ID4geG1sOmJhc2UgdmFsdWUgc2hv dWxkIGJlIHNldCB1cG9uIHRoZSAiZWxlbWVudCBjb250YWluaW5nIHRoZQo+ID4gdGV4dCIsIGlu IHRoaXMgY2FzZSwgdGhlIGNvbnRlbnQgZWxlbWVudC4gIE9idmlvdXNseSB5b3UgY2FuJ3QKPiA+ IHNpbXBseSBhc3N1bWUgdGhhdCB0aGUgY3VycmVudCB4bWw6YmFzZSBpbiBjb250ZXh0IGhhcyBh bnkgZGlyZWN0Cj4gPiByZWxhdGlvbiwgYW5kIHRoZXJlZm9yZSB2YWx1ZSB0byB0aGUgY3VycmVu dCBlbnRyeS9jb250ZW50IGluCj4gPiBjb250ZXh0LCBhcywgdXNpbmcgQXJpc3RvdGxlJ3MgdXNl IGNhc2UgKGFuZCBhIGJpbGxpb24gb3RoZXJzIGp1c3QKPiA+IGxpa2UgaXQgLS0gaWYgbm90IGEg YmlsbGlvbiBub3csIGl0IHdvbid0IGJlIHRvbyBsb25nIGJlZm9yZSB0aGF0Cj4gPiBudW1iZXIg aXMgcXVpdGUgcmVhbGlzdGljLCBhbmQgaW4gZmFjdCBvbmx5IHNjcmF0Y2hpbmcgdGhlIEF0b20K PiA+IGZlZWQgc3VyZmFjZSBvZiB0aGUgbm90IHRvbyBkaXN0YW50IGZ1dHVyZSksIHRoZXJlIGlz IG5vIHdheSB0aGF0Cj4gPiBvbmUgY2FuIHNpbXBseSBhc3N1bWUgdGhhdCB0aGUgY3VycmVudCBA eG1sOmJhc2UgdmFsdWUgaXMgbGVnaXQuCj4KPiBJIGRpc2FncmVlLiAgVGhlIGJlc3QgcHJhY3Rp Y2Ugc2hvdWxkIGJlIHRvIHNldCB4bWw6YmFzZSBleHBsaWNpdGx5Cj4gaW4gYW55IGRvY3VtZW50 IHVzaW5nIHJlbGF0aXZlIFVSSXMsIGFuZCBhdCBhbnkgcG9pbnQgaW4gdGhlIGRvY3VtZW50Cj4g d2hlcmUgdGhlIHJlbGF0aXZlIFVSSXMgYXBwZWFyLCBlbnN1cmUgdGhhdCB0aGUgeG1sOmJhc2Ug aW4gY29udGV4dAo+IGlzIHRoZSBjb3JyZWN0IGJhc2UgVVJJIGJ5IG92ZXJyaWRpbmcgaXQgaWYg bmVjZXNzYXJ5LiAgSWYgdGhpcwo+IHByYWN0aWNlIGlzIGZvbGxvd2VkLCBhbmQgb25seSBpZiB0 aGlzIHByYWN0aWNlIGlzIGZvbGxvd2VkLCB0aGVuCj4gY29uc3VtZXJzIHdpbGwgYmUgYWJsZSB0 byByZWxpYWJseSByZXNvbHZlIHJlbGF0aXZlIFVSSXMuICBJIHNlZSBubwo+IGp1c3RpZmljYXRp b24gZm9yIGFzc3VtaW5nIHRoYXQgdGhlIHhtbDpiYXNlIGluIGNvbnRleHQgaXMgaW52YWxpZAo+ IGFuZCB1c2luZyBzb21lIG90aGVyIGJhc2UgVVJJIGp1c3QgYmVjYXVzZSB4bWw6YmFzZSBpcyBz ZXQgc29tZXdoZXJlCj4gb3RoZXIgdGhhbiB0aGUgY29udGFpbmluZyBlbGVtZW50LiAgSXQncyBh IHByZXR0eSBzb3JyeSB3b3JsZCBpZiB3ZQo+IG5vdCBvbmx5IGFzc3VtZSwgYnV0IG9wZXJhdGUg b24gdGhlIGFzc3VtcHRpb24gdGhhdCBwdWJsaXNoZXJzIGFyZQo+IGFuZCB3aWxsIGNvbnRpbnVl IHRvIGJlIHRoYXQgaW5lcHQuCj4KPiBKdXN0IHRvIGFtcGxpZnkgb25lIHBvaW50Ogo+ID4geW91 IGNhbid0IHNpbXBseSBhc3N1bWUgdGhhdCB0aGUgY3VycmVudCB4bWw6YmFzZSBpbiBjb250ZXh0 IGhhcwo+ID4gYW55IGRpcmVjdCByZWxhdGlvbi4uLgo+Cj4gV2hhdCB5b3UgY2FuJ3Qgc2ltcGx5 IGFzc3VtZSBpcyB0aGF0IGl0IHRoZSB4bWw6YmFzZSBpbiBjb250ZXh0IGRvZXMKPiBOT1QgaGF2 ZSBhbnkgZGlyZWN0IHJlbGF0aW9uIHRvIHRoZSBjb250ZW50LiAgUGFydCBvZiB0aGUgcG9pbnQg b2YKPiBYTUwgaXMgdGhhdCB3ZSdsbCBhbGwgYmUgYmV0dGVyIG9mZiBpZiBjb25zdW1lcnMgcmVs eSBvbiBwdWJsaXNoZXJzCj4gZG9pbmcgdGhpbmdzIGNvcnJlY3RseSAoaW4gdGhpcyBjYXNlLCBn ZXR0aW5nIHhtbDpiYXNlIHJpZ2h0KSBhbmQKPiBob2xkIHB1Ymxpc2hlcnMgdG8gaXQgdW50aWwg dGhleSBnZXQgaXQgcmlnaHQuCj4KPiBBbnRvbmUKPgo+CgoKLS0KPE06RC8+CgpNLiBEYXZpZCBQ ZXRlcnNvbgpodHRwOi8vd3d3LnhzbHRibG9nLmNvbS8K ------=_Part_17747_23676975.1143783749534 Content-Type: text/html; 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Fri, 31 Mar 2006 01:51:20 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPDQU-0007vt-1a for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 01:48:10 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2V6NuYe050463; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 23:23:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2V6NuJg050462; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 23:23:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2V6NsL1050445 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2006 23:23:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [192.168.0.99] (211.26.138.222) by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Fri, 31 Mar 2006 17:16:12 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 17:14:59 +1000 Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 On 31/3/06 3:08 PM, "Antone Roundy" wrote: >> The escaped HTML content contained within the content element that >> David was originally concerned with is more than likely a copy of >> all or part of the elements and content contained inside the body >> tag of the external document referenced by an associated link >> element, and therefore no guarentee that the xml:base of the atom >> feed is going to be anywhere even close to accurate. I'm doing something similar right now, scraping some website that doesn't provide feeds for what I want. I check the html of the page I scraped and if they have a I use that, else I use the URL I used to fetch the page. The tag soup I extract for each entry contains relative references. I really don't want to go fixing that tag soup so I just stick that base url into xml:base for each entry (and not just at the top of the feed, because I'm scraping paginated results). e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 31 03:09:37 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPEhN-0006zg-0v for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 03:09:37 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPEhJ-0003vh-F8 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 03:09:37 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2V7sYMX054211; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 00:54:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2V7sYTw054210; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 00:54:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mta07-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.47]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2V7sXkJ054204 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 00:54:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20060331075427.JDZQ29343.mtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com>; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:54:27 +0100 Received: from cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust17.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([81.111.201.17]) by aamtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20060331075426.RAHG24467.aamtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust17.bagu.cable.ntl.com>; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:54:26 +0100 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:54:22 +0100 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.72.05 (Beta)) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <83541819.20060331085422@djpowell.net> To: "A. Pagaltzis" CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? In-Reply-To: <20060331023112.GI28107@klangraum> References: <692BD006-4131-4E84-91F7-22F43494C2EE@sun.com> <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> <20060331023112.GI28107@klangraum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Friday, March 31, 2006, 3:31:12 AM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > In that scenario, either the tag soup from the other feeds must > be fixed up so the view can be rendered as XHTML (which supports > xml:base in content) XHTML 1.0 doesn't support xml:base does it? As I understand it, only specs that say that they support xml:base allow you to put xml:base on their elements, but any spec that allows URIrefs has the concept of a base-URI, so for envelope specs such as Atom, you'd expect xml:base in the envelope to set the base-URI for the content. -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 31 03:19:19 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPEql-00032X-2F for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 03:19:19 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPEqk-0004Ff-NK for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 03:19:19 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2V88MLa054689; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 01:08:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2V88MNc054688; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 01:08:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mta07-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.47]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2V88Laj054681 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 01:08:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20060331080815.JRTO29343.mtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com>; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 09:08:15 +0100 Received: from cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust17.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([81.111.201.17]) by aamtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20060331080815.RFOR24467.aamtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust17.bagu.cable.ntl.com>; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 09:08:15 +0100 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 09:08:11 +0100 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.72.05 (Beta)) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <903892935.20060331090811@djpowell.net> To: "M. David Peterson" CC: "Atom Syntax" Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? In-Reply-To: References: <692BD006-4131-4E84-91F7-22F43494C2EE@sun.com> <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Friday, March 31, 2006, 4:34:48 AM, you wrote: > The escaped HTML content contained within the content element that > David was originally concerned with is more than likely a copy of > all or part of the elements and content contained inside the body > tag of the external document referenced by an associated link > element, and therefore no guarentee that the xml:base of the atom > feed is going to be anywhere even close to accurate. That might be exactly the case where the xml:base is useful: the content came from different places, had relative URI-refs, so the xml:base was set on each entry to the source URIs of each document so that the relative links work[*] in both in cases. [*] in theory. -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 31 04:29:32 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPFwi-0003Qw-LC for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 04:29:32 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPFwh-000764-4F for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 04:29:32 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2V9EJwg057748; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 02:14:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2V9EJTI057747; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 02:14:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.194]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2V9EH5R057741 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 02:14:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from xmlhacker@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id q3so777103nzb for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 01:14:17 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=jU94n5pBcpO/qczF0IFsSQbc/a0S8B+vzc8y9Ao1GXoCRoLvJ3F7aP9GOTkLngIZll8agjg+29dL1Mwq3RWpegonkH6tNqjmKX/CSSwUzKKMkPPhikAU9g11iznu/FQ4ACovfFi2HRmyDTSY3gz1O7IutAxo+5WVuef8qt2KGO8= Received: by 10.65.183.7 with SMTP id k7mr137977qbp; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 01:14:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.210.18 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 01:14:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 02:14:17 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "David Powell" Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? Cc: "Atom Syntax" In-Reply-To: <903892935.20060331090811@djpowell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_446_22137373.1143796457095" References: <692BD006-4131-4E84-91F7-22F43494C2EE@sun.com> <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> <903892935.20060331090811@djpowell.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 36c793b20164cfe75332aa66ddb21196 ------=_Part_446_22137373.1143796457095 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline T2gsIEkgYWdyZWUgdGhhdCBpZiB0aGlzIGNhbiBiZSBkb25lIGluIGEgY29uc2lzdGVudCBtYW5u ZXIsIHRoZW4gdXNpbmcgdGhlCnhtbDpiYXNlIGF0dHJpYnV0ZSBvbiBlYWNoIC8vZW50cnkvY29u dGVudCBlbGVtZW50IHdvdWxkIGJlIGFic29sdXRlbHkKV09OREVSRlVMLiAgVGhlIHRyaWNrIGlz IHRvIGZpZ3VyZSBvdXQKaG93IHRvIGVuc3VyZSBhIGNvbnNpc3RlbnQgbGV2ZWwgb2YgYXZhaWFs YWJpbGl0eSBhbmQgYWNjdXJhY3kgb2YgdGhlIHZhbHVlCm9mIGVhY2ggaW5zdGFuY2Ugb2YgY29u dGVudC9AeG1sOmJhc2UuCgpJbiB0aGlua2luZyB0aGlzIHRyb3VnaCBhIGJpdCwgYXMgbG9uZyBh cyB0aGUgb3JpZ2luYWwgVVJJIGlzIGludGFjdCwgYW5kCnRoZSBVUkkgaXRzZWxmIGNvbnRhaW5z IHRoZSBjb3JyZWN0IFVSSSBmb3IgZWFjaCByZXNvdXJjZSB0aGF0IGlzCnJlZmVyZW5jZWQsIHRo ZW4gdGhlIGFiaWxpdHkgZXhpc3RzIHZpYSB2YXJpb3VzIG1lY2hhbmlzbSBpbiBYU0xUIDIuMAp0 byBidWlsZCBhIHNpbXBsZSB0cmFuc2Zvcm1hdGlvbiBmaWxlIHRoYXQgY291bGQgcGFyc2UgYW55 IGRvY3VtZW50LAp3ZWxsIGZvcm1lZCBvciBub3QsIGFuZCBleGN0cmFjdCBhbGwgb2YgdGhlIG9y aWdpbmFsIFVSSSdzLCByZXR1cm5pbmcKdGhlbSBpbiBhIHNpbXBsZSBSREYgcmVmZXJlbmNlIGlu ZGV4LCB0byB0aGVuIGJlIHVzZWQgdG8gZGV0ZXJtaW5lCndoYXQgYmFzZSBVUkkgc2hvdWxkIGJl IHVzZWQsIHdoaWNoIHJlc291cmNlcyBhcmUgZXh0ZXJuYWwsIGFuZCBidWlsZApvdXQgdGhlCnJl c3VsdCBpbiBhIHdheSB0aGF0IGtlZXBzIHRoZSA0MDQncyB0byBhbiBhYnNvbHV0ZSBtaW5pbXVt LgoKQWN0dWFsbHksIHdoYXQgd2UgcmVhbGx5IG5lZWQgaXMgYSBuaWNlIFNIQTEgIkRlY2VudHJh bGl6ZWQgSEFTSCBCQVNIIgp3ZWVrZW5kIHNlc3Npb24gdG8gaW5kZXggYWxsIGtub3duIHJlc291 cmNlcywgaW50ZWdyYXRpbmcgdGhlIHJlc3VsdCBzdHJpbmcKaW50byBldmVyeSBrbm93biBmaWxl CmZvcm1hdCBzcGVjaWZpY2F0aW9uIGFuZCBlbnN1cmluZyB0aGF0IGEgcmVzb3VyY2UgYWx3YXlz IGtub3dzIGhvdyB0bwpmaW5kIGhpcyB3YXkgYmFjayB0byB3aGVyZSBoZS9zaGUvaXQgY2FtZSBm cm9tLgoKSG93IGJvdXQnIHlvdSBndXlzIGJ1aWxkIHRoYXQgc3lzdGVtLCBhbmQgaW4gdGhlIG1l YW4gdGltZSBJJ2xsIHdyaXRlCnNvbWUgcXVpY2sgYW5kIGRpcnR5IHRyYW5zZm9ybWF0aW9ucyBm aWxlcyB0byB0aWRlIHVzIG92ZXIgdGlsJyB5b3UncmUKZG9uZSwgSz8KIEkgbWVhbiwgd2hhdCBl bHNlIGFyZSB5b3UgZ29ubmEgZG8gYWZ0ZXIgQVBQIHJlbGVhc2VzLi4uIFlvdSdsbCBoYXZlIExP QURTCm9mIGV4dHJhIHRpbWUgb24geW91ciBoYW5kLiA7KQoKSywgUmVhZHksIHNldCwgZ28hCgpP biAzLzMxLzA2LCBEYXZpZCBQb3dlbGwgPGRqcG93ZWxsQGRqcG93ZWxsLm5ldD4gd3JvdGU6Cj4K Pgo+IEZyaWRheSwgTWFyY2ggMzEsIDIwMDYsIDQ6MzQ6NDggQU0sIHlvdSB3cm90ZToKPgo+ID4g VGhlIGVzY2FwZWQgSFRNTCBjb250ZW50IGNvbnRhaW5lZCB3aXRoaW4gdGhlIGNvbnRlbnQgZWxl bWVudCB0aGF0Cj4gPiBEYXZpZCB3YXMgb3JpZ2luYWxseSBjb25jZXJuZWQgd2l0aCBpcyBtb3Jl IHRoYW4gbGlrZWx5IGEgY29weSBvZgo+ID4gYWxsIG9yIHBhcnQgb2YgdGhlIGVsZW1lbnRzIGFu ZCBjb250ZW50IGNvbnRhaW5lZCBpbnNpZGUgdGhlIGJvZHkKPiA+IHRhZyBvZiB0aGUgZXh0ZXJu YWwgZG9jdW1lbnQgcmVmZXJlbmNlZCBieSBhbiBhc3NvY2lhdGVkIGxpbmsKPiA+IGVsZW1lbnQs IGFuZCB0aGVyZWZvcmUgbm8gZ3VhcmVudGVlIHRoYXQgdGhlIHhtbDpiYXNlIG9mIHRoZSBhdG9t Cj4gPiBmZWVkIGlzIGdvaW5nIHRvIGJlIGFueXdoZXJlIGV2ZW4gY2xvc2UgdG8gYWNjdXJhdGUu Cj4KPiBUaGF0IG1pZ2h0IGJlIGV4YWN0bHkgdGhlIGNhc2Ugd2hlcmUgdGhlIHhtbDpiYXNlIGlz IHVzZWZ1bDogdGhlCj4gY29udGVudCBjYW1lIGZyb20gZGlmZmVyZW50IHBsYWNlcywgaGFkIHJl bGF0aXZlIFVSSS1yZWZzLCBzbyB0aGUKPiB4bWw6YmFzZSB3YXMgc2V0IG9uIGVhY2ggZW50cnkg dG8gdGhlIHNvdXJjZSBVUklzIG9mIGVhY2ggZG9jdW1lbnQgc28KPiB0aGF0IHRoZSByZWxhdGl2 ZSBsaW5rcyB3b3JrWypdIGluIGJvdGggaW4gY2FzZXMuCj4KPiBbKl0gaW4gdGhlb3J5Lgo+Cj4K PiAtLQo+IERhdmUKPgo+CgoKLS0KPE06RC8+CgpNLiBEYXZpZCBQZXRlcnNvbgpodHRwOi8vd3d3 LnhzbHRibG9nLmNvbS8K ------=_Part_446_22137373.1143796457095 Content-Type: text/html; 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Fri, 31 Mar 2006 01:16:17 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=ZCSo4Qfm1e2MYQinDh1vgNpYMc7dFm/r77JgvwFIBonRdPjepAPXskkP4RXgFeHnBqK5x2yvXXstkNDtecnPZUPDGFECqFEJFmY4jOlM1Emq13qmI1WDRguAcPzdWNGqalSWqn1+HRc8Z8XYvFX1ryjl3L6fGyM5PIsu62PuxO4= Received: by 10.65.210.17 with SMTP id m17mr145689qbq; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 01:16:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.210.18 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 01:16:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 02:16:17 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "David Powell" Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? Cc: "Atom Syntax" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_466_8596632.1143796577317" References: <692BD006-4131-4E84-91F7-22F43494C2EE@sun.com> <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> <903892935.20060331090811@djpowell.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: dbb8771284c7a36189745aa720dc20ab ------=_Part_466_8596632.1143796577317 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline aGFuZCpzKi4KCk9uIDMvMzEvMDYsIE0uIERhdmlkIFBldGVyc29uIDx4bWxoYWNrZXJAZ21haWwu Y29tPiB3cm90ZToKPgo+IE9oLCBJIGFncmVlIHRoYXQgaWYgdGhpcyBjYW4gYmUgZG9uZSBpbiBh IGNvbnNpc3RlbnQgbWFubmVyLCB0aGVuIHVzaW5nCj4gdGhlIHhtbDpiYXNlIGF0dHJpYnV0ZSBv biBlYWNoIC8vZW50cnkvY29udGVudCBlbGVtZW50IHdvdWxkIGJlIGFic29sdXRlbHkKPiBXT05E 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with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 31 Mar 2006 01:30:17 -0800 From: Sean Lyndersay To: "A. Pagaltzis" , Atom Syntax Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 01:27:29 -0800 Subject: RE: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? Thread-Topic: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? Thread-Index: AcZUa+e0ao6nzmCOSzGTZDLxCujObgAOHzGg Message-ID: <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA8435566@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> References: <692BD006-4131-4E84-91F7-22F43494C2EE@sun.com> <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> <20060331023112.GI28107@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20060331023112.GI28107@klangraum> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RulesExecuted: True X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Mar 2006 09:30:17.0932 (UTC) FILETIME=[B92710C0:01C654A5] x-microsoft-aal: 31 x-microsoft-cal: 13 x-microsoft-multilevel-authmechanism: Custom Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id k2V9UOEK058355 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 > However, exempting `@type='html'` content from xml:base processing won't help. Agreed and an excellent point. I guess that the end-result of this is that regardless of how one wants to interpret any of the relevant specs on this issue, a client should assume that xml:base applies to URI references in @type="html" content. -----Original Message----- From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of A. Pagaltzis Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 6:31 PM To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? * Sean Lyndersay [2006-03-31 04:00]: >This is unfortunate, because HTML itself only allows elements in >the header (one per page). So if anyone wants to build a client that >displays more than one item at a time using a standard HTML renderer >(and most client render HTML using someone else's renderer, not their >own), they have to go groveling in HTML to do URL fixup (or use >iframes). That's exactly the problem currently facing Liferea. However, exempting `@type='html'` content from xml:base processing won't help. If the items can come from multiple feeds, such as is supported by Liferea, then mixing items from an Atom feed that uses xml:base and other feeds automatically runs into the same issue. In that scenario, either the tag soup from the other feeds must be fixed up so the view can be rendered as XHTML (which supports xml:base in content), or URL fixup needs to be done on the content from the Atom feed so it can be passed to a tag soup renderer. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 31 05:17:21 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPGgz-0008En-MN for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 05:17:21 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPGgx-0000vk-8o for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 05:17:21 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2VA5thk060332; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 03:05:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2VA5tkI060331; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 03:05:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail4.exchange.microsoft.com (mail4.exchange.microsoft.com [131.107.1.99]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2VA5sAM060323 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 03:05:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from seanlynd@exchange.microsoft.com) Received: from df-gwy-06.exchange.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.63.150]) by mail4.exchange.microsoft.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 31 Mar 2006 02:05:49 -0800 Received: from df-hub-02.exchange.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.52) by df-gwy-06.exchange.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.63.150) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.0.516.4; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 02:05:49 -0800 Received: from df-bhd-02.exchange.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.71.211]) by df-hub-02.exchange.corp.microsoft.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 31 Mar 2006 02:05:49 -0800 From: Sean Lyndersay To: James Holderness , Atom Syntax Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 02:02:18 -0800 Subject: RE: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? Thread-Topic: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? Thread-Index: AcZUg/+UIsweqDdISoOhUWxbLo8nkwAHB/UQ Message-ID: <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843556B@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> References: <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RulesExecuted: True X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Mar 2006 10:05:49.0043 (UTC) FILETIME=[AF64CC30:01C654AA] x-microsoft-aal: 31 x-microsoft-cal: 13 x-microsoft-multilevel-authmechanism: Custom Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id k2VA5tAM060326 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 I haven't looked in detail at how IE does on the xml:base comformance tests, since the current beta has no support for xml:base. In light of that fact, I'm glad we failed outright instead of halfway; halfway would have been weird :). We're actually implementing xml:base support right now (and in the process, fixing the relative URL issue that Sam Ruby pointed out in our normalization format), so we'll be broken on those conformance tests for while. The fix won't make it out in the next public release, but it should make the one after that. I'll let you know how we do on those tests when the code is done. Sean -----Original Message----- From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of James Holderness Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 9:24 PM To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? Sean Lyndersay wrote: > In my own case (IE7) case, this isn't that big a deal because we have > to grovel in HTML for many other reasons, but I suspect it'd be pain > for other clients. Looking at the results of the Atom XmlBaseConformanceTests [1] mosts of the clients tested seemed capable of handling relative references inside HTML to some extent. Even the ones that don't necessarily pass all the tests at least get enough right to suggest that they're on the right track. IE7 is actually one of the few clients that I would consider to have failed outright. Is the latest beta any better at handling xml:base or do these problems still exist? Regards James [1] http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/XmlBaseConformanceTests From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 31 05:40:46 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPH3e-00087V-R6 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 05:40:46 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPH3d-0001uC-F8 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 05:40:46 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2VASUK3061329; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 03:28:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2VASUlf061328; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 03:28:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mta09-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.49]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2VASTHN061320 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 03:28:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20060331102823.WQQG27969.mtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com>; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 11:28:23 +0100 Received: from cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust17.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([81.111.201.17]) by aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20060331102823.UXGX19763.aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@cpc2-stok1-5-0-cust17.bagu.cable.ntl.com>; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 11:28:23 +0100 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 11:28:18 +0100 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.72.05 (Beta)) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <824824719.20060331112818@djpowell.net> To: Sean Lyndersay CC: James Holderness , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? In-Reply-To: <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843556B@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> References: <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843556B@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Friday, March 31, 2006, 11:02:18 AM, Sean Lyndersay wrote: > I haven't looked in detail at how IE does on the xml:base > comformance tests, since the current beta has no support for > xml:base. In light of that fact, I'm glad we failed outright instead > of halfway; halfway would have been weird :). > We're actually implementing xml:base support right now (and in the > process, fixing the relative URL issue that Sam Ruby pointed out in > our normalization format), so we'll be broken on those conformance > tests for while. The fix won't make it out in the next public > release, but it should make the one after that. > I'll let you know how we do on those tests when the code is done. Great. It would be good if you could preserve the "effective" base-URI of feeds and entries, so that applications using Atom extensions that contain relative URIRefs can resolve them into URIs. I suppose that it could be done by pinning an absolute xml:base onto the channel and item elements. -- Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 31 05:41:07 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPH3z-0008BV-1R for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 05:41:07 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPH3x-0001w6-MC for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 05:41:07 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2VAMxIE061110; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 03:22:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2VAMx8d061109; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 03:22:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k2VAMwbh061077 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 03:22:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 31 Mar 2006 10:22:52 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-221-246.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.221.246] by mail.gmx.net (mp024) with SMTP; 31 Mar 2006 12:22:52 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 12:23:00 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? Message-ID: <20060331102300.GJ28107@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <692BD006-4131-4E84-91F7-22F43494C2EE@sun.com> <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> <20060331023112.GI28107@klangraum> <83541819.20060331085422@djpowell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83541819.20060331085422@djpowell.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2VAMxIE061110 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 * David Powell [2006-03-31 09:55]: >XHTML 1.0 doesn't support xml:base does it? As I understand it, >only specs that say that they support xml:base allow you to put >xml:base on their elements, but any spec that allows URIrefs has >the concept of a base-URI, so for envelope specs such as Atom, >you'd expect xml:base in the envelope to set the base-URI for >the content. To be honest, I=E2=80=99m not sure about the precise spec interactions for this case. What I do know however is that Gecko respects xml:base in XHTML content. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 31 09:14:27 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPKOR-0002zO-RA for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 09:14:27 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPKOQ-0004Wv-Bp for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 09:14:27 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2VE1hLv070816; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 07:01:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2VE1hX8070815; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 07:01:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k2VE1fZN070807 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 07:01:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 31 Mar 2006 14:01:36 -0000 Received: from xdsl-84-44-231-120.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [84.44.231.120] by mail.gmx.net (mp033) with SMTP; 31 Mar 2006 16:01:36 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:01:44 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? Message-ID: <20060331140144.GO28107@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> <442CB14E.8000107@gmail.com> <1D1A9D78-09E2-4751-8D7C-5E2D8846D5C3@geckotribe.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2VE1hLv070816 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a * M. David Peterson [2006-03-31 07:55]: > I speaking in terms of mashups... If a feed comes from one > source, then I would agree... but mashups from both a > syndication as well as an application standpoint are become the > primary focus of EVERY major vendor. Its in this scenario that > I see the problem of assuming the xml:base in current context > has any value whatsoever. >=20 > Pick a planet, any planet, and my point suddenly and > immediattelly becomes relavent. No. That is only a problem if you just mash markup together without taking care to preserve base URIs by adding xml:base at the junction points as necessary. Copying an atom:entry from one feed to another correctly requires that you query the base URI which is in effect in the scope of the atom:entry in the source feed, and add an xml:base attribute to that effect to the copied atom:entry in the destination feed. If you do this, any xml:base attributes within the copy of the atom:entry will continue to resolve correctly. It=E2=80=99s much easier to get right than copying markup without violating namespace-wellformedness, even. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 31 10:04:04 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPLAS-00073N-Oc for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 10:04:04 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPLAS-0006G0-CL for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 10:04:04 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2VEqwZK073038; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 07:52:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2VEqwso073037; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 07:52:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.192.81]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2VEqw8j073030 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 07:52:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-177-6-93.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.177.6.93]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <20060331145252m1100c3a25e>; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 14:52:52 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.3) In-Reply-To: <20060331140144.GO28107@klangraum> References: <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> <442CB14E.8000107@gmail.com> <1D1A9D78-09E2-4751-8D7C-5E2D8846D5C3@geckotribe.com> <20060331140144.GO28107@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 07:52:50 -0700 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.3) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id k2VEqw8j073032 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2VEqwZK073038 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 On Mar 31, 2006, at 7:01 AM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > * M. David Peterson [2006-03-31 07:55]: >> I speaking in terms of mashups... If a feed comes from one >> source, then I would agree... but mashups from both a >> syndication as well as an application standpoint are become the >> primary focus of EVERY major vendor. Its in this scenario that >> I see the problem of assuming the xml:base in current context >> has any value whatsoever. > > No. That is only a problem if you just mash markup together > without taking care to preserve base URIs by adding xml:base > at the junction points as necessary. > > Copying an atom:entry from one feed to another correctly requires > that you query the base URI which is in effect in the scope of > the atom:entry in the source feed, and add an xml:base attribute > to that effect to the copied atom:entry in the destination feed. > If you do this, any xml:base attributes within the copy of the > atom:entry will continue to resolve correctly. > > It=92s much easier to get right than copying markup without > violating namespace-wellformedness, even. Exactly. When creating a mashup feed, there are any number of things =20 that the ... "masher"(?) has to be careful of--for example: * Getting namespace prefixes right * Creating an atom:source element and putting the right data into it * Ensuring that all entries use the same character encoding * Ensuring that the xml:lang in context is correct * Ensuring that the xml:base in context is correct * If any of the source data isn't Atom, ensuring that all the =20 required elements exist (...even if the source data IS Atom--you =20 never know when you're going to aggregate from an invalid Atom feed--=20 then you have to decide whether to "fix" the entry or drop it to make =20 your output correct) If we start assuming that "mashers" can't do those correctly, then we =20 may as well not be using Atom, or even XML. If we did a proper job =20 of specifying Atom, then we should be able to hold publishers' feet =20 to the fire and make them get their feeds right. In Atom, xml:base =20 is the mechanism used to determine base URIs. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 31 10:19:19 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPLPD-0003VQ-Nx for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 10:19:19 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPLPA-000712-ST for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 10:19:19 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2VF5TS9073694; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:05:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2VF5TcX073693; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:05:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pproxy.gmail.com (pproxy.gmail.com [64.233.166.178]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2VF5QtL073686 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:05:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from xmlhacker@gmail.com) Received: by pproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id f25so1157091pyf for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 07:05:25 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=VNRTOTjr+tP9t5viAWJ//+OcTsaktAW2WTRFxzOFAlbUi+B0iB98ZD9smQXWWz0cYwVDWRpnx8o8dDJ9M90Bel7snRGAPfGIFXEhyw6HOOprWUiBRDR//3y75h25kHVEk58IxZWPzOO9JnoPERW9FJKcC5QS9v9Idn1KYKsRqCk= Received: by 10.65.210.17 with SMTP id m17mr283234qbq; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 07:05:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.210.18 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 07:05:05 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:05:05 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? 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David Peterson" To: "Antone Roundy" Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4911_6197767.1143818455278" References: <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> <442CB14E.8000107@gmail.com> <1D1A9D78-09E2-4751-8D7C-5E2D8846D5C3@geckotribe.com> <20060331140144.GO28107@klangraum> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 932cba6e0228cc603da43d861a7e09d8 ------=_Part_4911_6197767.1143818455278 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline Q29vbC4uLiBMZXRzIGRvIGl0Li4uICBJJ20gc3RhcnRpbmcgd2l0aCBBdG9tIGFzIEkgaGF2ZSBh bHJlYWR5IGJlZW4gd29ya2luZwpvbiBhIFJTUyB0byBBdG9tIHRyYW5zZm9ybSwgYW5kIGl0IG9u bHkgdGFrZXMgMTAgb3Igc28gdGVzdCBmZWVkcyBmb3IgeW91IHRvCnJlYWxpemUgInRoaXMgaXNu J3QgYSBsaXR0bGUgMTUgbWludXRlIHRocm93IGl0IHRvZ2V0aGVyIGFuZCBleHBlY3QgaXQgdG8K 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esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPMSt-00022f-VE for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 11:27:15 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2VGGCx9077787; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 09:16:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2VGGC6M077786; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 09:16:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2VGGBGd077780 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 09:16:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from fe-amer-05.sun.com ([192.18.108.179]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k2VGGBuf007140 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 09:16:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0IX00010123VWS00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 09:16:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] ([216.113.204.157]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0IX0003KA2IYQCQ3@mail-amer.sun.com>; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 09:16:11 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:16:09 -0800 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? In-reply-to: <442CBC28.4030903@gmail.com> To: James M Snell Cc: Atom Syntax Message-id: <35BD0BA8-8B22-45ED-8768-2DC2602C6E0A@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.3) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> <442CB14E.8000107@gmail.com> <442CBC28.4030903@gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab On Mar 30, 2006, at 9:20 PM, James M Snell wrote: > I would agree that, as a best practice, the xml:base should appear on > the content element, but implementations need to be prepared to use > whatever the in-scope URI is (e.g. if no xml:base is specified, > relative > refs in the content will be relative to Content-Location or the feeds > Request URI). Maybe. Highly error-prone. > In other words, consumers of the feed *have* to assume > that the current xml:base in context is going to be correct and > publishers of the feed simply have to be responsible for Doing The > Right > Thing. Agreed. I think providing an xml:base in your feed is a best practice. -Tim From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 31 11:47:05 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPMm9-0004t1-ER for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 11:47:05 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPMm8-0002pd-2C for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 11:47:05 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2VGZHZ0079224; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 09:35:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2VGZHEm079223; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 09:35:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pproxy.gmail.com (pproxy.gmail.com [64.233.166.177]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2VGZGBi079217 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 09:35:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from xmlhacker@gmail.com) Received: by pproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id f25so1164457pyf for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:35:16 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=TFqMSeXmoWRI/wO66HdNAKcDxY+SGm0QR5CyTm89JYkgmVnUvk/LiwmeHdvhEbojpgwNo3iwJc3enDxr/a16iSrIWiUck6N9zUU2M7MAndyY2/03ckQUhHRCmHoU7ptsn5ucoh2z0Yo6O0ejIBgVZqPIlEusRSkpkrFfBIS88Eg= Received: by 10.65.43.12 with SMTP id v12mr329384qbj; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:35:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.210.18 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:35:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 09:35:16 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "Tim Bray" Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? Cc: "James M Snell" , "Atom Syntax" In-Reply-To: <35BD0BA8-8B22-45ED-8768-2DC2602C6E0A@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_6543_21543888.1143822916062" References: <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> <442CB14E.8000107@gmail.com> <442CBC28.4030903@gmail.com> <35BD0BA8-8B22-45ED-8768-2DC2602C6E0A@sun.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 ------=_Part_6543_21543888.1143822916062 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline R29vZCBlbm91Z2ggZm9yIG1lIDopCgooYWx0aG91Z2gsIEkgaGFkIGFscmVhZHkgYmVlbiBjb252 aW5jZWQgb2YgdGhpcyBieSB0aGUgcmVzdCBvZiB5b3UgYXMgd2VsbCkKCk9uIDMvMzEvMDYsIFRp bSBCcmF5IDxUaW0uQnJheUBzdW4uY29tPiB3cm90ZToKPgo+Cj4KPiBPbiBNYXIgMzAsIDIwMDYs IGF0IDk6MjAgUE0sIEphbWVzIE0gU25lbGwgd3JvdGU6Cj4KPiA+IEkgd291bGQgYWdyZWUgdGhh dCwgYXMgYSBiZXN0IHByYWN0aWNlLCB0aGUgeG1sOmJhc2Ugc2hvdWxkIGFwcGVhciBvbgo+ID4g dGhlIGNvbnRlbnQgZWxlbWVudCwgYnV0IGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9ucyBuZWVkIHRvIGJlIHByZXBh cmVkIHRvIHVzZQo+ID4gd2hhdGV2ZXIgdGhlIGluLXNjb3BlIFVSSSBpcyAoZS5nLiBpZiBubyB4 bWw6YmFzZSBpcyBzcGVjaWZpZWQsCj4gPiByZWxhdGl2ZQo+ID4gcmVmcyBpbiB0aGUgY29udGVu dCB3aWxsIGJlIHJlbGF0aXZlIHRvIENvbnRlbnQtTG9jYXRpb24gb3IgdGhlIGZlZWRzCj4gPiBS ZXF1ZXN0IFVSSSkuCj4KPiBNYXliZS4gIEhpZ2hseSBlcnJvci1wcm9uZS4KPgo+ID4gICBJbiBv dGhlciB3b3JkcywgY29uc3VtZXJzIG9mIHRoZSBmZWVkICpoYXZlKiB0byBhc3N1bWUKPiA+IHRo YXQgdGhlIGN1cnJlbnQgeG1sOmJhc2UgaW4gY29udGV4dCBpcyBnb2luZyB0byBiZSBjb3JyZWN0 IGFuZAo+ID4gcHVibGlzaGVycyBvZiB0aGUgZmVlZCBzaW1wbHkgaGF2ZSB0byBiZSByZXNwb25z aWJsZSBmb3IgRG9pbmcgVGhlCj4gPiBSaWdodAo+ID4gVGhpbmcuCj4KPiBBZ3JlZWQuICBJIHRo aW5rIHByb3ZpZGluZyBhbiB4bWw6YmFzZSBpbiB5b3VyIGZlZWQgaXMgYSBiZXN0Cj4gcHJhY3Rp Y2UuIC1UaW0KPgo+CgoKLS0KPE06RC8+CgpNLiBEYXZpZCBQZXRlcnNvbgpodHRwOi8vd3d3Lnhz bHRibG9nLmNvbS8K ------=_Part_6543_21543888.1143822916062 Content-Type: text/html; 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Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:34:05 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:mime-version:content-type; b=lOzOrZf5eTDvzX/vNQRXJuRpUmp1pg8HhKNY8vfkwdOV75FN8xTQhJudlQFqmJTdxBQ8iPljUOQBScGzi9SmyeZpyty7RQb6qpRXGdGkM/w9uMGQCVAhoW+TRZCrpUrm14zCgxuDC3ZMtFxvL7oyn5qsLdoaRKfwbfSA4ZJDHa8= Received: by 10.65.218.4 with SMTP id v4mr306596qbq; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:33:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.210.18 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:33:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 09:33:51 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "A. Pagaltzis" , "Atom Syntax" Subject: What Has No Floats, No Tables, Transformed From an Atom Config File, and Completely Moduler Cc: "Sean Lyndersay" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_6447_31458157.1143822831079" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 2.4 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 0d9864700e184b480e0033515ee6a795 ------=_Part_6447_31458157.1143822831079 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline Pgo+IE1heWJlIHNvbWUgb2YgeW91IGNhbiBiYWNrIG1lIHVwIG9uIHRoaXMsIGJ1dCBJJ2QgbXVj aCByYXRoZXIgc2VlIENTUwo+IHRhYmxlcyBpbXBsZW1lbnRlZCBmaXJzdCwgYmVmb3JlIGdlbmVy YXRlZCBjb250ZW50LiBGbG9hdHMgaGF2ZSBvbmx5IGV2ZXIKPiBiZWVuIGEgaGFja2lzaCB3YXkg dG8gbGF5b3V0IGEgd2ViIHBhZ2U7IHdlIG5lZWQgc29tZXRoaW5nIG1vcmUgaW50ZWxsaWdlbnQs Cj4gc29tZXRoaW5nIHRoYXQgY2FuIHNheSAieWVzIHBsZWFzZSwgSSByZWFsbHkgd291bGQgbGlr 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ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPOF7-0007jd-BY for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 13:21:07 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2VI12Jg082538; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 11:01:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2VI12bS082537; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 11:01:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [63.240.77.83]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2VI11bJ082520 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 11:01:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from x-antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-177-6-93.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.177.6.93]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <2006033118005501300ef02ie>; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 18:00:55 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.3) In-Reply-To: <442CBE89.8020208@gmail.com> References: <692BD006-4131-4E84-91F7-22F43494C2EE@sun.com> <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> <442CBE89.8020208@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 11:00:54 -0700 To: atom-syntax@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.3) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a On Mar 30, 2006, at 10:30 PM, James M Snell wrote: > Antone Roundy wrote: >> [snip] >> 2) If you're consuming Atom and you encounter a relative URI, how >> should >> you choose the appropriate base URI with which to resolve it? >> >> I think there are only three remotely possible answers to #2: >> xml:base >> (including the URI from which the feed was retrieved if xml:base >> isn't >> explicitly defined), the URI of the self link, and the URI of the >> alternate link. Given that Atom explicitly supports xml:base, if >> it's >> explicitly defined, it's difficult to justify ignoring it in favor of >> anything else. > > There is no basis in any of the specs for using the URI of the self or > alternate link as a base uri for resolving relative references in the > content. The process for resolving relative references is very > clearly > defined. Right--my point is: 1) If the original publisher made the mistake of using relative references without explicitly setting xml:base (figuring that consumers could resolve the references relative to the location of the feed), and then the feed got moved or mirrored, one would certainly fail at finding the things the publisher intended to point to if the URI from which the feed was retrieved was used as the base URI, but might succeed by using the self link as the base URI. (I do not advocate doing this as default behavior, as stated below). 2) If the original publisher made the mistake of not even thinking about relative references in the content and therefore didn't set xml:base, the relative references may very well be relative to the location pointed to by the alternate link. For example, the person generating the content may have been thinking "my blog entry will appear at http://example.org/blog/2006/03/foo.html, so I can use the relative URL "../../../img/button.gif" to point to the image at http://example.org/img/button.gif". If the alternate link points to http://example.org/blog/2006/03/foo.html, then the consumer that wants to find the image will only succeed by using the alternate link as the base URI. (I do not advocate doing this as default behavior, as stated below). Moral of this story: failing to explicitly set xml:base is bad because it tempts consumers to ignore the spec in order to get what they want. I do not advocate ignoring the spec as default behavior. But honestly, I might give the user of a consuming application the option of overriding the default behavior on specific feeds if they know that the publisher makes the mistake of publishing links relative to the self or alternate link without setting xml:base. I'd LIKE to be able to hold the publisher's feet to the fire and make them fix the feed, but sometimes my users hold MY feet to the fire and make me give them usable workarounds. Antone From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 31 15:49:59 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPQZD-00037E-0H for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 15:49:59 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPQZ9-00059D-Ka for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 15:49:58 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2VKbDmT087653; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 13:37:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2VKbDm3087652; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 13:37:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from server02.deinternetman.nl (hosted.by.deinternetman.nl [83.98.145.60] (may be forged)) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2VKbBKD087644 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 13:37:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from fora@annevankesteren.nl) Received: (qmail 20789 invoked from network); 31 Mar 2006 22:37:04 +0200 Received: from localhost.deinternetman.net (HELO localhost) (127.0.0.1) by localhost.deinternetman.net with SMTP; 31 Mar 2006 22:37:04 +0200 Received: from pat-tdc.opera.com (pat-tdc.opera.com [213.236.208.22]) by webmail.annevankesteren.nl (Horde MIME library) with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 22:37:04 +0200 Message-ID: <20060331223704.w1r73catu2kkc0ww@webmail.annevankesteren.nl> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 22:37:04 +0200 From: Anne van Kesteren To: "A. Pagaltzis" Cc: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? References: <692BD006-4131-4E84-91F7-22F43494C2EE@sun.com> <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> <20060331023112.GI28107@klangraum> <83541819.20060331085422@djpowell.net> <20060331102300.GJ28107@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20060331102300.GJ28107@klangraum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.0.3) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id k2VKbDKD087646 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k2VKbDmT087653 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Quoting "A. Pagaltzis" : > * David Powell [2006-03-31 09:55]: >> XHTML 1.0 doesn't support xml:base does it? As I understand it, >> only specs that say that they support xml:base allow you to put >> xml:base on their elements, but any spec that allows URIrefs has >> the concept of a base-URI, so for envelope specs such as Atom, >> you'd expect xml:base in the envelope to set the base-URI for >> the content. > > To be honest, I=E2=80=99m not sure about the precise spec interactions > for this case. What I do know however is that Gecko respects > xml:base in XHTML content. Opera 9 weeklies should do the same... --=20 Anne van Kesteren From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 31 17:20:15 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPRyY-0005LT-De for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 17:20:14 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPRuq-0000zi-W1 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 17:16:26 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2VM1a3H089791; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 15:01:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2VM1aKf089790; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 15:01:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav18.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.89] (may be forged)) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2VM1ZGC089784 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 15:01:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 14:01:34 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.79.77 by BAY106-DAV17.phx.gbl with DAV; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 22:01:34 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.79.77] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Atom Syntax" References: <9138FF9DE9175C489F6F5477262E4FA843553D@DF-TERRIER-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> <442CB14E.8000107@gmail.com> <442CBC28.4030903@gmail.com> <35BD0BA8-8B22-45ED-8768-2DC2602C6E0A@sun.com> Subject: Re: Does xml:base apply to type="html" content? Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 00:01:33 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Mar 2006 22:01:34.0906 (UTC) FILETIME=[AD1F71A0:01C6550E] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Tim Bray wrote: > On Mar 30, 2006, at 9:20 PM, James M Snell wrote: >> I would agree that, as a best practice, the xml:base should appear on >> the content element, but implementations need to be prepared to use >> whatever the in-scope URI is (e.g. if no xml:base is specified, relative >> refs in the content will be relative to Content-Location or the feeds >> Request URI). > > Maybe. Highly error-prone. Not sure what you mean by highly error-prone, but I do know that support for Content-Location in aggregators is essentially non-existent. I've run tests on 16 different aggregators and Snarfer was the only one that supported Content-Location as a base URI. Thunderbird was the next best in that it made use of the Location header when there was a redirect. A couple of others at least used the request URI. However the rest either used the feed alternate link, the element alternate link or the server hostname. Two didn't seem to support relative URIs at all. Aggregators tested: Blogbridge, Bloglines, BottomFeeder, FeedDemon, FeedReader, Google Reader, GreatNews, JetBrains Omea, Netvibes, Newsgator Online, NewzCrawler, RSSBandit, RSSOwl, Sharpreader, Snarfer, and Thunderbird. I also understand there is some debate whether supporting Content-Location is a good idea at all (at least in web browsers). Firefox at one point started adding support, but they determined that it caused problems with broken servers (mostly IIS I believe). I know there was some discussion about doing server detection and working around those servers, but some other issue came up that made them give up the whole idea (I can't remember what). I'm not sure whether any of these issues apply to feed readers. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 31 18:02:33 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPSdV-0007JH-KZ for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 18:02:33 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPSdU-0002rg-98 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 18:02:33 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2VMpTcH091505; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 15:51:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2VMpTXT091504; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 15:51:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc14.comcast.net (sccrmhc14.comcast.net [63.240.77.84]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2VMpSae091498 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 15:51:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-177-6-93.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.177.6.93]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc14) with SMTP id <2006033122512201400c1us4e>; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 22:51:23 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <01C03F6B-C995-4AED-841C-2CFD1F284088@geckotribe.com> Cc: support@newsgator.com, atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: xml:base in your Atom feed Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 15:51:20 -0700 To: Sam Ruby X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.3) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Sam, Funny that this should come up today given the recent discussion on the mailing list--NetNewsWire isn't getting the links in your Atom feed right. I looked at the source, and it's clearly a NetNewsWire bug since it's not even trying to resolve relative to the URI from which it retrieves the feed. In fact it appears to be resolving relative to the alternate link (), and not doing such a good job of it--for example, instead of , it's pointing to --but I wonder whether it would get it right if you set xml:base explicitly. Antone From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 31 18:22:11 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPSwV-0006As-Py for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 18:22:11 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPSwU-0003ri-FH for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 18:22:11 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2VNCPXM092249; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:12:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2VNCPpQ092240; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:12:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com (ms-smtp-01-lbl.southeast.rr.com [24.25.9.100]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2VNCNPe092233 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:12:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.1.103] (cpe-066-057-027-065.nc.res.rr.com [66.57.27.65]) by ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k2VNCJLp026194; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 18:12:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <442DB751.1050504@intertwingly.net> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 18:12:17 -0500 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Antone Roundy CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: xml:base in your Atom feed References: <01C03F6B-C995-4AED-841C-2CFD1F284088@geckotribe.com> In-Reply-To: <01C03F6B-C995-4AED-841C-2CFD1F284088@geckotribe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Antone Roundy wrote: > Sam, > > Funny that this should come up today given the recent discussion on the > mailing list--NetNewsWire isn't getting the links in your Atom feed > right. There is an off chance that I have been following the list. ;-) - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 31 18:40:04 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPTDo-0005Jn-9v for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 18:40:04 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPTDm-0004ma-VA for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 18:40:04 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2VNTkTM092822; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:29:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2VNTklj092821; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:29:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.192.81]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2VNTkm7092813 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:29:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from antone@geckotribe.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (c-67-177-6-93.hsd1.ut.comcast.net[67.177.6.93]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <20060331232940m1100ca828e>; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 23:29:40 +0000 In-Reply-To: <442DB751.1050504@intertwingly.net> References: <01C03F6B-C995-4AED-841C-2CFD1F284088@geckotribe.com> <442DB751.1050504@intertwingly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Antone Roundy Subject: Re: xml:base in your Atom feed Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:29:39 -0700 To: Sam Ruby X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.3) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 On Mar 31, 2006, at 4:12 PM, Sam Ruby wrote: > Antone Roundy wrote: >> Sam, >> >> Funny that this should come up today given the recent discussion >> on the >> mailing list--NetNewsWire isn't getting the links in your Atom feed >> right. > > There is an off chance that I have been following the list. ;-) I certainly didn't mean to imply that you weren't--I just wanted to point out what I'm seeing in case you didn't know that this particular feed reader is having this particular problem today. And I thought it might be of interest to the WG to know what NNW is doing given that it's doing something that has been argued against within the last 24 hours. I don't remember which version of your feed I was subscribed to before--perhaps I wasn't subscribed to the Atom feed and NNW updated my subscription when you redirected to it. So I don't know whether you purposely removed xml:base to see what chaos would ensue, or whether it hasn't been there all along and I just haven't seen the problem since I was subscribed to a different version. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 31 18:50:06 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPTNW-0000Ac-QD for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 18:50:06 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPTNV-0005K5-E0 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 18:50:06 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2VNdiOm093094; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:39:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2VNdhk1093093; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:39:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vanadium.sabren.com (vanadium.sabren.com [67.19.173.84]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2VNdfhG093086 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:39:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.1.103] (cpe-066-057-027-065.nc.res.rr.com [66.57.27.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by vanadium.sabren.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k2VNdZ1G006798; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 18:39:39 -0500 Message-ID: <442DBDB7.5050707@intertwingly.net> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 18:39:35 -0500 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051013) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Antone Roundy CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: xml:base in your Atom feed References: <01C03F6B-C995-4AED-841C-2CFD1F284088@geckotribe.com> <442DB751.1050504@intertwingly.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 Antone Roundy wrote: > On Mar 31, 2006, at 4:12 PM, Sam Ruby wrote: > >> Antone Roundy wrote: >> >>> Sam, >>> >>> Funny that this should come up today given the recent discussion on >>> the >>> mailing list--NetNewsWire isn't getting the links in your Atom feed >>> right. >> >> There is an off chance that I have been following the list. ;-) > > I certainly didn't mean to imply that you weren't--I just wanted to > point out what I'm seeing in case you didn't know that this particular > feed reader is having this particular problem today. And I thought it > might be of interest to the WG to know what NNW is doing given that > it's doing something that has been argued against within the last 24 > hours. ;-) > I don't remember which version of your feed I was subscribed to > before--perhaps I wasn't subscribed to the Atom feed and NNW updated my > subscription when you redirected to it. So I don't know whether you > purposely removed xml:base to see what chaos would ensue, or whether it > hasn't been there all along and I just haven't seen the problem since I > was subscribed to a different version. As late as this morning, all link/@href attributes in my Atom feed contained absolute URIs. One of the original problems that Atom set out to solve was the desire by people to use relative URIs. Even in their content. In fact, PARTICULARLY in their content. My recent post of Common Feed Errors demonstrate that this demand certainly exists - even in RSS: http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/2006/03/13/Common-Feed-Errors It would be helpful if people were to update: http://intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/XmlBaseConformanceTests - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 31 19:09:44 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPTgW-0006dy-89 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 19:09:44 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPTgT-0006MA-Qx for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 19:09:44 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2VNwmUk093694; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:58:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k2VNwlnX093693; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:58:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pproxy.gmail.com (pproxy.gmail.com [64.233.166.180]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k2VNwkVW093687 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:58:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from xmlhacker@gmail.com) Received: by pproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id f25so1190561pyf for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 15:58:46 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Gj4gKWlEqX/Ewn1yfoPz0rFGVWWGLhqPL6sEKm06j4zo8ZmmcaEy8mvpI61f5g5Kdais3i1QyfHTlkoh9G6c7DA01sCvT5KCW2vyBDhwBXMNHiY3kCJ05L095Zz7vdVw3uCTEmW7Qs+qkMctfVZcowz+QftletHAFWJG9nES31M= Received: by 10.64.209.3 with SMTP id h3mr508503qbg; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 15:58:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.210.18 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 15:58:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:58:46 -0700 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "Sam Ruby" Subject: Re: xml:base in your Atom feed Cc: "Antone Roundy" , atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <442DBDB7.5050707@intertwingly.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Disposition: inline References: <01C03F6B-C995-4AED-841C-2CFD1F284088@geckotribe.com> <442DB751.1050504@intertwingly.net> <442DBDB7.5050707@intertwingly.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id k2VNwlVW093688 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52f7a77164458f8c7b36b66787c853da and here I was holding this inside of me as I always assumed "obviously it's implemented for a reason".... This makes me happy :) Thanks Sam! On 3/31/06, Sam Ruby wrote: > > Antone Roundy wrote: > > On Mar 31, 2006, at 4:12 PM, Sam Ruby wrote: > > > >> Antone Roundy wrote: > >> > >>> Sam, > >>> > >>> Funny that this should come up today given the recent discussion on > >>> the > >>> mailing list--NetNewsWire isn't getting the links in your Atom feed > >>> right. > >> > >> There is an off chance that I have been following the list. ;-) > > > > I certainly didn't mean to imply that you weren't--I just wanted to > > point out what I'm seeing in case you didn't know that this particular > > feed reader is having this particular problem today. And I thought it > > might be of interest to the WG to know what NNW is doing given that > > it's doing something that has been argued against within the last 24 > > hours. > > ;-) > > > I don't remember which version of your feed I was subscribed to > > before--perhaps I wasn't subscribed to the Atom feed and NNW updated my > > subscription when you redirected to it. So I don't know whether you > > purposely removed xml:base to see what chaos would ensue, or whether it > > hasn't been there all along and I just haven't seen the problem since I > > was subscribed to a different version. > > As late as this morning, all link/@href attributes in my Atom feed > contained absolute URIs. > > One of the original problems that Atom set out to solve was the desire > by people to use relative URIs. Even in their content. In fact, > PARTICULARLY in their content. > > My recent post of Common Feed Errors demonstrate that this demand > certainly exists - even in RSS: > > http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/2006/03/13/Common-Feed-Errors > > It would be helpful if people were to update: > > http://intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/XmlBaseConformanceTests > > - Sam Ruby > > -- M. David Peterson http://www.xsltblog.com/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 31 19:58:13 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPURR-0001EA-NS for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 19:58:13 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FPURP-0001MG-SQ for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 19:58:13 -0500 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k310m6bQ095202; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 17:48:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k310m6a8095201; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 17:48:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k310m4fd095195 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2006 17:48:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 01 Apr 2006 00:47:59 -0000 Received: from xdsl-84-44-231-120.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [84.44.231.120] by mail.gmx.net (mp030) with SMTP; 01 Apr 2006 02:47:59 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 02:48:07 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: xml:base in your Atom feed Message-ID: <20060401004807.GC19592@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <01C03F6B-C995-4AED-841C-2CFD1F284088@geckotribe.com> <442DB751.1050504@intertwingly.net> <442DBDB7.5050707@intertwingly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <442DBDB7.5050707@intertwingly.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k310m6bQ095202 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f * Sam Ruby [2006-04-01 01:50]: > It would be helpful if people were to update: >=20 > http://intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/XmlBaseConformanceTests For that matter, I=E2=80=99ve been meaning to address some weaknesses in that test suite which Liferea 1.0 highlights. Liferea does URI fixup for Atom links in its feed parser, but merely uses the entry=E2=80=99s alternate URI as the base URI when rendering content. So it succeeds legitimately on cases that test things like atom:link, but then accidentally succeeds on a number of cases that involve atom:content where it should be failing. I=E2=80=99ve been meaning to add some aggressive tests which use xml:base values that differ drastically from the nearby alternate URIs in order to smoke out such coincidentally passing tests, as well as some intentionally evil tests with `type=3D"xhtml"` where xml:base is set on elements inside the xhtml:div. I expect to see a lot of aggregators fall from grace with such an expanded test suite. Sam: is it possible to host the test suites directly on the wiki, by having pages that consist entirely of verbatim text? Ideally, the content should be rendered inside the wiki chrome using `
` tags, but be downloadable without the chome by way of
adding something like `?display=3Draw;type=3Dapplication/atom+xml` to
the page URI. That would make it much easier for more people to
pitch in. I find the collection of tests we have so worryingly
minimal; a lot of the currently lesser used corners of the format
are not being tested at all. It makes me nervous that dirty data
based on current incomplete implementation behaviour may become
too widespread for aggregator developers to be able to ignore it.

Regards,
--=20
Aristotle Pagaltzis // 




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To: "A. Pagaltzis" 
CC: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: xml:base in your Atom feed
References: <01C03F6B-C995-4AED-841C-2CFD1F284088@geckotribe.com> <442DB751.1050504@intertwingly.net>  <442DBDB7.5050707@intertwingly.net> <20060401004807.GC19592@klangraum>
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A. Pagaltzis wrote:
> 
> Sam: is it possible to host the test suites directly on the wiki,
> by having pages that consist entirely of verbatim text? Ideally,
> the content should be rendered inside the wiki chrome using
> `
` tags, but be downloadable without the chome by way of
> adding something like `?display=raw;type=application/atom+xml`

At the moment, the raw text can be obtained with ?action=raw

Of course, that means that the "non raw" text might look a little weird.

I am comfortable enough with the moin code base that I would be willing
to code up a specific action just for this wiki that strips leading {{{
and trailing }}} and then delivers the results raw, with the appropriate
mime type.

How does ?action=atomtest sound?

- Sam Ruby




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* M. David Peterson  [2006-04-01 03:15]:
> Obviously the main wiki would be better, but if this can act as
> a backup plan, then let me know if and when and I will set up
> access to that box for you.

Hosting is not the point. I have webspace and I can link files I
host from the main wiki, as before. Collaboration is the point.
I=E2=80=99m hoping for a way for anyone to pitch in without having to
fight any red tape, so that the test suite can be expanded by
whoever happens to have a spare tuit.

Regards,
--=20
Aristotle Pagaltzis // 




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* Sam Ruby  [2006-04-01 03:40]:
> I am comfortable enough with the moin code base that I would be
> willing to code up a specific action just for this wiki that
> strips leading {{{ and trailing }}} and then delivers the
> results raw, with the appropriate mime type.

Sounds good.

> How does ?action=atomtest sound?

Maybe `action=atom`?

Regards,
-- 
Aristotle Pagaltzis // 




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A. Pagaltzis wrote:
> I=E2=80=99ve been meaning to add some aggressive tests which use xml:ba=
se
> values that differ drastically from the nearby alternate URIs in
> order to smoke out such coincidentally passing tests, as well as
> some intentionally evil tests with `type=3D"xhtml"` where xml:base
> is set on elements inside the xhtml:div. I expect to see a lot of
> aggregators fall from grace with such an expanded test suite.

Yep. I've run tests like that. Haven't found a single aggregator (includi=
ng=20
my own) that handled xml:base on the xhtml:div or deeper.

> I find the collection of tests we have so worryingly
> minimal; a lot of the currently lesser used corners of the format
> are not being tested at all.

Agreed. For various political reasons I don't want to get involved with t=
est=20
creation, but I do contribute results when I get a chance (I suspect more=
=20
than half the xml:base results were added by me). I think you might get m=
ore=20
involvement if the tests were easier to use though. By that I mean tests=20
that say exactly how they should be interpreted and that you can see at a=
=20
glance whether you've got a pass or failure. Having to click through link=
s=20
to see if they are valid can get a bit tiresome when you've trying to=20
evaluate 16 tests on 20 different aggregators.

Regards
James




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* James Holderness  [2006-04-01 04:35]:
> I think you might get more involvement if the tests were easier
> to use though. By that I mean tests that say exactly how they
> should be interpreted and that you can see at a glance whether
> you've got a pass or failure. Having to click through links to
> see if they are valid can get a bit tiresome when you've trying
> to evaluate 16 tests on 20 different aggregators.

I agree that this would be good. The test suite seems quite
awkward so far. I just can=E2=80=99t think of any ways to automate tests
to the extent you propose. Have you got any suggestions for a
format to use?

Regards,
--=20
Aristotle Pagaltzis // 




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On 1/4/06 12:24 PM, "James Holderness"  wrote:

> I think you might get more
> involvement if the tests were easier to use though. By that I mean tests
> that say exactly how they should be interpreted and that you can see at a
> glance whether you've got a pass or failure. Having to click through links
> to see if they are valid can get a bit tiresome when you've trying to
> evaluate 16 tests on 20 different aggregators.

one way would be to use  instead of  links, with each test image
being specific to the test ... that way all one needs to do is read the feed
and check to see if the text in the image corresponds to the text in the
entry headline. Especially easy if the tests were numbered.

e.




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A. Pagaltzis wrote:
> I agree that this would be good. The test suite seems quite
> awkward so far. I just can=E2=80=99t think of any ways to automate test=
s
> to the extent you propose. Have you got any suggestions for a
> format to use?

I know not everyone is going to agree with me on this, but my first=20
suggestion would be to cut down on the number of tests. Mark Pilgrim has=20
something like 3000+ tests in his UFP test suite. That's great; that's wh=
at=20
aggregator developers should be doing, since those kind of tests can easi=
ly=20
be automated. But that's not the level of testing that we can put up on a=
=20
wiki and hope people will manually contribute results.

What we need is fewer tests with more coverage, and that involves tradeof=
fs.=20
Take relative URIs as an example. I probably have 50 odd unit tests, but =
you=20
don't need all of those in a conformance test. You certainly don't need e=
ach=20
of those tested on each element that uses a URI. Pick one element that's=20
easy to test (say html content using img tags) and include a small subset=
 of=20
the trickier URIs.

You create "good" images at the destinations that would be reached if the=
=20
parsing has been performed correctly and, where possible, "bad" images at=
=20
the destination that an aggregator might reach if they're doing something=
=20
wrong (often this won't be possible, but in many cases aggregators get=20
things predictably wrong). From this you get fairly comprehensive coverag=
e=20
of the different forms of relative URI in a simple set of tests that can =
be=20
evaluated at a glance.

Now to test what level of support there is for relative URIs in other=20
elements, you just pick one reasonably complicated (but not the worst) te=
st=20
case and test each element just once. In many cases this will involve=20
following a link to see whether it's going to the right place, but you ca=
n=20
make this more pleasant by including a "good" page at the expected=20
destination and, as with the images, a couple of "bad" pages in all the=20
places you think an aggregator might go if it's getting it wrong.

The tradeoff here is that you're assuming an aggregator that can handle a=
ll=20
the variations you've thrown at it in html content would also be able han=
dle=20
those variations in other elements as long as it can pass the single test=
=20
that you've tested everywhere else. That may not always be the case, but=20
your other choice is an exponentially larger test suite that just isn't=20
manageable.

For most tests it's actually not that complicated though. If you're testi=
ng=20
something that can be seen somewhere in the UI, like say a title, date or=
=20
author, simple include exactly what the value should be right there in th=
e=20
message content for that entry. When you're doing a set of tests along th=
e=20
same lines (like say titles encoded in different ways) try and make sure=20
every test produces the same results so you can see at a glance if they'r=
e=20
all correct.

When testing things like the different forms of escaping which can have a=
=20
huge number of permutations, it's often easier to test several different=20
combinations at the same time in one test (similar to the html acid tests=
).=20
When you fail a test you can't easily tell the exact cause of the failure=
,=20
but it does cut down the number of tests that have to be checked.

And on the subject of huge sets of tests, it's obviously a lot easier to=20
test a single feed with 20 tests than it is to have to subscribe to 20=20
different feeds to run each test separately. However, it's sometimes a go=
od=20
idea to also have each test separately in case you have an aggregator tha=
t=20
flat out refuses to subscribe to a feed because of one test, but would=20
otherwise be perfectly capable of passing all the others. I find it easie=
r=20
to do this with a PHP script and some mod_rewriteing to make the URLs=20
looking prettier.

Also, when you need a lot of separate feed tests (either for the reasons=20
mentioned above, or for tests that can't be grouped) it can be helpful if=
=20
you include an opml file that can import all the tests in one go rather t=
han=20
having to add them individually.

Some other suggestions...

Make sure your ids are always unique (I know this goes without saying, bu=
t=20
it's easy to overlook when you're throwing together a test). Some=20
aggregators will refuse to display entries with ids they've already seen=20
before even if the feed from which those ids came has long since been=20
deleted. It's also advisable to include an alternate link on all elements=
=20
unless that would interfere with your test since I think there are some=20
aggregators that fail to subscribe to feeds without element links

Avoid using xhtml content or weird escaping techniques unless you're=20
actually testing those features. I should probably double check this, but=
 I=20
think the safest content type is html with named entity escaping (lt, amp=
) -=20
no numeric entities or cdata escaping. It's also advisable to keep your=20
dates very recent (this is easy if tests are generated via php and you ca=
n=20
make them up on the fly) since some aggregators won't display entries tha=
t=20
are older than a certain date.

That's about all I can think of for the moment.

Regards
James