From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Aug 04 14:18:00 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G94FE-0006nu-II for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Aug 2006 14:18:00 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G94FD-0000nJ-6G for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Aug 2006 14:18:00 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k74I1hiv003918; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 11:01:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k74I1hL9003914; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 11:01:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.190]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k74I1gGH003898 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 11:01:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id a27so78407nfc for ; Fri, 04 Aug 2006 11:01:41 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ZtFXe+0dfQMG3a/qUU5mbmKQkxefQ+AxBMlDi+Yxy1knvI/lwEbDHJXnJ+6QoCChcRBH1sxs0WUjjjcsx9yF5zUZhzB9k2DuVBBWCDpXymTXfViFhl+eqCm+PP2iV+gx2lUDOWdG7gOOmdacRFZuJJS7opAcg1kyGG7cXNk1bWQ= Received: by 10.49.8.10 with SMTP id l10mr5644625nfi; Fri, 04 Aug 2006 11:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.218.96]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 39sm1361191wrl.2006.08.04.11.01.40; Fri, 04 Aug 2006 11:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <44D38B81.1020403@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 11:01:37 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060719) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax Subject: Atom and RSS Security Issues Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 Mostly known already, but worth reading: http://www.niallkennedy.com/blog/archives/2006/08/black-hat-prese.html http://news.com.com/2100-1002_3-6102171.html - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Aug 04 15:36:27 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G95T9-00007N-Ki for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Aug 2006 15:36:27 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G95T6-0000fJ-4J for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Aug 2006 15:36:27 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k74JMUka030743; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 12:22:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k74JMUsG030742; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 12:22:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc1-s36.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc1-s36.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.108]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k74JMRCS030700 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 12:22:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([64.4.19.88]) by bay0-omc1-s36.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 4 Aug 2006 12:22:22 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 12:22:21 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.179.67.181 by BAY109-DAV16.phx.gbl with DAV; Fri, 04 Aug 2006 19:22:21 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.179.67.181] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "atom-syntax" References: <44D38B81.1020403@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Atom and RSS Security Issues Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 20:20:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Aug 2006 19:22:21.0840 (UTC) FILETIME=[4F19C100:01C6B7FB] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 3.1 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 James M Snell wrote: > Mostly known already, but worth reading: > > http://www.niallkennedy.com/blog/archives/2006/08/black-hat-prese.html > http://news.com.com/2100-1002_3-6102171.html Most developers may be aware of the dangers of scripting, but as that article points out they aren't doing a very good job of blocking it. I ran a bunch of tests on about 20 or so aggregators about a month ago and more than half let through scripting in some form or another. Most were at least making some effort to block scripts but there were a few that basically let through everything. I was considering putting up a blog post on the subject including my test feeds so people could see some of the things they need to check for, but I figured it'd probably do more harm than good. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Aug 04 18:42:56 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G98Nc-0003Co-8M for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Aug 2006 18:42:56 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G98Nc-000234-6m for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Aug 2006 18:42:56 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G98Mw-0002kL-1m for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Aug 2006 18:42:16 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k74MS9lM094119; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 15:28:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k74MS9CD094118; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 15:28:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.207]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k74MS81T094108 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 15:28:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id m7so108129nzf for ; Fri, 04 Aug 2006 15:28:08 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=O8fYUN0kZ4qlV1yijdqQ7UkfNg9RmqGaF82dNpAQtTDuDmF+mXHzQsEA/d66dlRvfubWGsK/shvHD/N2lCtwOUQ0jzg7rvL5sMW6xTFjVU/BXPYMF1MWJSE80MyEfbZfQLTkhEt8kTbFJx72EjFORDGcZiwDSAZdox2og+o+NS0= Received: by 10.65.237.1 with SMTP id o1mr3670167qbr; Fri, 04 Aug 2006 15:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.218.96]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 8sm1217268wra.2006.08.04.15.28.06; Fri, 04 Aug 2006 15:28:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <44D3C9F0.4010102@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 15:28:00 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060719) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Atom and RSS Security Issues References: <44D38B81.1020403@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 I think that's an excellent idea - James James Holderness wrote: > [snip] > I was considering putting up a blog post on the subject including my > test feeds so people could see some of the things they need to check > for, but I figured it'd probably do more harm than good. > > Regards > James > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Aug 13 07:04:59 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GCDm7-0003mq-PP for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 07:04:59 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GCDm5-0005qr-Bm for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 07:04:58 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7DAlXHf033257; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 03:47:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7DAlX3J033255; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 03:47:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail1.webfaction.com (mail1.webfaction.com [67.15.2.85]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7DAlWHk033237 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 03:47:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from sh@defuze.org) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (host81-159-23-74.range81-159.btcentralplus.com [81.159.23.74]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail1.webfaction.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k7DAlVXr016235 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 05:47:31 -0500 Message-ID: <44DF0331.7040000@defuze.org> Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:47:13 +0100 From: Sylvain Hellegouarch Reply-To: sh@defuze.org User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060719) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom-Syntax Subject: link element alternate and self Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Hi all, From RFC4287: The value "alternate" signifies that the IRI in the value of the href attribute identifies an alternate version of the resource described by the containing element. The value "self" signifies that the IRI in the value of the href attribute identifies a resource equivalent to the containing element. Now I wonder say I have a feed. Each entry has a link element which should indicate the URI of the resource. That resource being a feed itself not an entry. In that case should I use self or alternate? Is it an equivalent resource or an alternate version of it? The term "equivalent" being fairly unclear in this context IMO. I assume instead of "alternate version" it should have been "alternate representation" right? What's the best practices? Thanks, - Sylvain From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Aug 13 10:07:26 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GCGcg-0000vN-3T for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 10:07:26 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GCGcd-0007n9-KR for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 10:07:26 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7DDqfMi039271; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 06:52:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7DDqfBH039269; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 06:52:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k7DDqdGp039188 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 06:52:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 13 Aug 2006 13:52:33 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-240-161.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.240.161] by mail.gmx.net (mp042) with SMTP; 13 Aug 2006 15:52:33 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 15:53:15 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom-Syntax Subject: Re: link element alternate and self Message-ID: <20060813135315.GC32689@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom-Syntax References: <44DF0331.7040000@defuze.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <44DF0331.7040000@defuze.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k7DDqfMi039271 X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 * Sylvain Hellegouarch [2006-08-13 13:00]: > Now I wonder say I have a feed. Each entry has a link element which=20 > should indicate the URI of the resource. That resource being a feed=20 > itself not an entry. >=20 > In that case should I use self or alternate? `alternate`. The purpose of `self` is to embed the URI of the feed inside the feed, so that an aggregator knows what URI to subscribe to, even if all it has to go by is the feed document, but not a URI. That=E2=80=99s all it=E2=80=99s for. > The term "equivalent" being fairly unclear in this context IMO. Yes, the wording in the RFC is unfortunate. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Aug 13 14:22:01 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GCKZr-0003LV-2n for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 14:20:47 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GCKWD-0008G3-Gp for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 14:17:12 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7DI501Y095081; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:05:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7DI50TO095080; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:05:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pop.ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.25]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7DI4w3h094702 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:04:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.118] by pop.ironclad.net.au with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.3.1); Mon, 14 Aug 2006 04:05:54 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 04:04:23 +1000 Subject: atom:updated - not now() values? From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 When updating an entry, is it acceptable to insert a value other than Now() into atom:updated? For example: Corporate Communications prep a release and they stamp it with a release date of Monday 4 PM ... but I don't see this release update until I get into the office at 2 PM Tuesday, and thus I quickly enter it into the CMS and set the atom:updated value to Monday 4 PM. e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Aug 13 15:32:58 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GCLhi-0004dw-UZ for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 15:32:58 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GCLhh-0004TH-FC for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 15:32:58 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7DJMFS6041078; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 12:22:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7DJMFun041076; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 12:22:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7DJMBtK041024 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 12:22:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from fe-amer-01.sun.com ([192.18.108.175]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k7DJMAuB020144 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 13:22:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J3Y00801B37JJ00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) for atom-syntax@imc.org; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 13:22:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.38] ([216.113.204.64]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J3Y00075B4XVMJ3@mail-amer.sun.com>; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 13:22:09 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 12:22:08 -0700 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: atom:updated - not now() values? In-reply-to: To: Eric Scheid Cc: Atom Syntax Message-id: <44DF7BE0.7020306@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060728) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Eric Scheid wrote: > When updating an entry, is it acceptable to insert a value other than Now() > into atom:updated? Clearly, since updated is defined as the time the publisher thinks it was significantly updated. Of course, the server could over-write the updated value if it chose. -Tim > > For example: Corporate Communications prep a release and they stamp it with > a release date of Monday 4 PM ... but I don't see this release update until > I get into the office at 2 PM Tuesday, and thus I quickly enter it into the > CMS and set the atom:updated value to Monday 4 PM. > > e. > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Aug 13 15:39:59 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GCLoV-0007v8-B5 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 15:39:59 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GCLoT-0004eB-VT for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 15:39:59 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7DJQNof043462; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 12:26:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7DJQNXe043461; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 12:26:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chilco.textdrive.com (chilco.textdrive.com [207.7.108.242]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7DJQKLQ043389 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 12:26:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (83-70-44-1.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net [83.70.44.1]) by chilco.textdrive.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1706DBF30 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 19:26:14 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <44DF7CD5.4080703@dehora.net> Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 20:26:13 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (Windows/20060719) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: atom:updated - not now() values? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Eric Scheid wrote: > When updating an entry, is it acceptable to insert a value other than Now() > into atom:updated? Yes. Reasons below. > For example: Corporate Communications prep a release and they stamp it with > a release date of Monday 4 PM ... but I don't see this release update until > I get into the office at 2 PM Tuesday, and thus I quickly enter it into the > CMS and set the atom:updated value to Monday 4 PM. That's the kind of scenario that's begging for a business rule. I don't see anything in Atom that disallows those kind of policies. 1: the above scenario has run into the difference between document management, content management and publication. Atom doesn't distinguish between those. 2: an asshole reading of atom:updated says it should bind to the Atom Entry . A moron reading says it could bind to the thing the Entry is trying to describe (a press release, or news about a press release, or...). Atom isn't precise enough in it's denotation to say one way or another. 3: Literally, the spec doesn't say you must enter a Now() value. It also doesn't say whose Now() value you should enter. I think policy you would apply would be primarily driven by what you think atom:updated points at, ie, the first point to close out above is 2. It does not help that Atom says little about Entry life cycles, for example, how Entries get onto servers in the first place, which is the issue your scenario has to deal with. Btw, I think the scenario describes a highly plausible state of affairs. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Aug 14 21:51:07 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GCo5D-0002om-9D for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 21:51:07 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GCo5A-0006Im-Sk for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 21:51:07 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7F1Lv1C026809; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:21:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7F1Lvt6026808; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:21:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.234]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7F1LoMg026734 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:21:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id h27so1342083wxd for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:21:49 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=rUackDmFomJukGEz/vPxOXwCJKvouZXMptnmd4hComGzt+4fSC1D/Hz+PXNR++wu9BgnybCDJpICEKqiW8qnr+vDsObvQi7tDsLFaZDrH8B3iAqhQO5hRWNRWCFzU0NZSXNzonevZUTtm4O6eCA84TyYv8MfSpAJrB+n0PnTg4g= Received: by 10.70.8.8 with SMTP id 8mr10691270wxh; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:21:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.218.96]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 27sm735076wrl.2006.08.14.18.21.48; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:21:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <44E121A9.9060705@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:21:45 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060719) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax Subject: Atom license link last call Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 1.9 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 FYI... https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi?command=view_id&dTag=13576&rfc_flag=0 The current spec: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-license-06.txt The intended target is "Experimental" - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Aug 14 21:58:50 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GCoCg-0005EB-9E for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 21:58:50 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GCoCe-00074K-O2 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 21:58:50 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7F1iYg3041327; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:44:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7F1iYBS041325; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:44:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from laweleka.osafoundation.org (laweleka.osafoundation.org [204.152.186.98]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7F1iVnW041280 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:44:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from lisa@osafoundation.org) Received: from [192.168.103.59] (adsl-75-5-124-98.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net [75.5.124.98]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by laweleka.osafoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1473D1422CD for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) To: Atom Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-9--942096017 References: From: Lisa Dusseault Subject: Fwd: Last Call: 'Atom License Extension' to Experimental RFC (draft-snell-atompub-feed-license) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:44:06 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68ba2b07ef271dba6ee42a93832cfa4c --Apple-Mail-9--942096017 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed FYI Begin forwarded message: > From: The IESG > Date: August 14, 2006 6:35:53 PM PDT > To: IETF-Announce > Subject: Last Call: 'Atom License Extension' to Experimental RFC > (draft-snell-atompub-feed-license) > Reply-To: iesg@ietf.org > > The IESG has received a request from an individual submitter to > consider the > following document: > > - 'Atom License Extension ' > as an Experimental RFC > > The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits > final comments on this action. Please send any comments to the > iesg@ietf.org or ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2006-09-11. > > The file can be obtained via > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed- > license-06.txt > > > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce --Apple-Mail-9--942096017 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 FYI

Begin = forwarded message:

From: = The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
Date: August 14, 2006 6:35:53 PM = PDT
To: IETF-Announce <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
Subject: Last Call: 'Atom License Extension' = to Experimental RFC=A0 = (draft-snell-atompub-feed-license)=A0
Reply-To: = iesg@ietf.org

The = IESG has received a request from an individual submitter to consider = the=A0
following document:

- 'Atom = License Extension '
=A0=A0 = <draft-snell-atompub-feed-license-06.txt> as an = Experimental RFC

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few = weeks, and solicits
final comments on this = action.=A0 Please send any = comments to the
iesg@ietf.org or ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by = 2006-09-11.

The file can be obtained via


IETF-Announce mailing list
https://www1= .ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
=
= --Apple-Mail-9--942096017-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Aug 14 22:18:35 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GCoVn-0003ZE-4j for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:18:35 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GCoVl-0000sm-Pk for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:18:35 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7F21ptY052653; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:01:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7F21pPU052651; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:01:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [10.20.30.249] (dsl-63-249-108-169.cruzio.com [63.249.108.169]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7F21nnZ052621 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:01:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:01:48 -0700 To: Atom WG From: The IESG Subject: Last Call: 'Atom License Extension' to Experimental RFC (draft-snell-atompub-feed-license) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 The IESG has received a request from an individual submitter to consider the following document: - 'Atom License Extension ' as an Experimental RFC The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send any comments to the iesg@ietf.org or ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2006-09-11. The file can be obtained via http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-license-06.txt From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Aug 15 12:42:36 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GD1zw-0002s5-9H for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 12:42:36 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GD1zn-0007VD-M0 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 12:42:36 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7FGGQdv098022; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:16:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7FGGQXQ098021; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:16:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k7FGGO3b097985 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:16:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from derhoermi@gmx.net) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 15 Aug 2006 16:16:18 -0000 Received: from dslb-084-056-211-153.pools.arcor-ip.net (EHLO hive) [84.56.211.153] by mail.gmx.net (mp037) with SMTP; 15 Aug 2006 18:16:18 +0200 X-Authenticated: #723575 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann To: James M Snell Cc: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Atom license link last call Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:16:18 +0200 Message-ID: References: <44E121A9.9060705@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <44E121A9.9060705@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k7FGGQdv098022 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 * James M Snell wrote: >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-license-06.= txt I do not understand section 4, it says the security considerations of RFC 4287 apply; the only consideration there that could apply is that IRIs are used, and as such considerations of RFC 3987 apply. The actual registration then says there are no security considerations for the new link relation. I think both sections should say the same, and if security is truly irrelevant to the link relation, it should say that. Perhaps you might to say something like, when used in Atom documents, the security considerations for handling links in Atom documents apply. I would personally like to see some note that implementations cannot necessarily trust that the publisher has the right to license material claimed to be covered by the license, and that care should be taken when making decisions based on the license reference, such as republishing the content. The third paragraph in section 3 seems overly verbose to me, is there no terminology introduced in RFC 4287 that could be used and/or re- ferenced instead of the verbose discussion? Or is this assumed to be the case already, and the "Implementors should note" non-normative note just re-states what is stated elsewhere in the draft or the Atom specification? I do not quite understand feed-level licenses, the draft just says what they don't cover, not what they do cover. Say I make a feed with the five most insightful blog postings on international politics and I license the feed under the most permissive license possible. Can you then copy my list of entries over to your top five list? Just the IRIs, or also the summary I wrote for those entries? What if I copied the summary over from the original feed (assuming, e.g., I may copy those, but you may not, for some twisted legal reason)? If I relate the license to the entries, would the license cover my summary and the third party entries, or just my summary, or just the content of the third party entry? Should atom:source be used in such scenarios specifically for license reasons? I think the concept of "informational content" used to explain some of these things is too unclear to me to answer these questions. I think the reference to "copyright licenses" is a bit unfortunate. Why is this reference to "copyright" necessary? --=20 Bj=F6rn H=F6hrmann =B7 mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de =B7 http://bjoern.hoehr= mann.de Weinh. Str. 22 =B7 Telefon: +49(0)621/4309674 =B7 http://www.bjoernsworld= .de 68309 Mannheim =B7 PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 =B7 http://www.websitedev.d= e/=20 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Aug 15 13:11:08 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GD2RY-0003SG-8x for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:11:08 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GD2RY-0000XR-7Q for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:11:08 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GD2Cq-00045A-Mf for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 12:55:57 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7FGaY03002524; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:36:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7FGaYoP002522; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:36:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.229]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7FGaXWB002511 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:36:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id t12so1521877wxc for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:36:33 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=aUxL6bf7+l+furov1R7J4vFOkw+AhY0rRsnzA03vLjLLGbQnDLvY8nn79uZCjduNI4QAAQVgtoM5B9IszrWlU3wSC2yDTxQnHGgAfVUDijLHzTytkOXZ5LNUNuRrOR+fyh1C3l7/iyQnOTIHWSXOeHjTMilmISrEBguKQ66MKjw= Received: by 10.70.18.11 with SMTP id 11mr11825518wxr; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.218.96]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 15sm2023297wrl.2006.08.15.09.36.31; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <44E1F80C.9030503@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:36:28 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060719) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Atom license link last call References: <44E121A9.9060705@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 41c17b4b16d1eedaa8395c26e9a251c4 Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: >[snip] > Perhaps you might to say something like, when used in Atom documents, > the security considerations for handling links in Atom documents apply. > Yeah, this would be better. This draft doesn't introduce any security concerns of it's own. > I would personally like to see some note that implementations cannot > necessarily trust that the publisher has the right to license material > claimed to be covered by the license, and that care should be taken > when making decisions based on the license reference, such as > republishing the content. > Good catch. Another concern that was raised to me by a colleague is that the license resource being pointed to could change over time, meaning that the license being referenced today may not be the same license being used tomorrow even tho URIs may be exactly the same. If the license is controlled by a different entity than the publisher of the entry, this could cause problems. > The third paragraph in section 3 seems overly verbose to me, is there > no terminology introduced in RFC 4287 that could be used and/or re- > ferenced instead of the verbose discussion? Or is this assumed to be > the case already, and the "Implementors should note" non-normative > note just re-states what is stated elsewhere in the draft or the Atom > specification? > Unfortunately, there is no language in RFC4287 I can draw upon here. > I do not quite understand feed-level licenses, the draft just says > what they don't cover, not what they do cover. Say I make a feed with > the five most insightful blog postings on international politics and > I license the feed under the most permissive license possible. Can > you then copy my list of entries over to your top five list? Just the > IRIs, or also the summary I wrote for those entries? What if I copied > the summary over from the original feed (assuming, e.g., I may copy > those, but you may not, for some twisted legal reason)? If I relate > the license to the entries, would the license cover my summary and > the third party entries, or just my summary, or just the content of > the third party entry? Should atom:source be used in such scenarios > specifically for license reasons? > Yes, this should be clarified. Feed level licenses cover the metadata of the feed (title, subtitle, etc). I've actually found very little use for feed level licenses and would actually be quite happy to remove them from the spec completely. > I think the concept of "informational content" used to explain some > of these things is too unclear to me to answer these questions. > Ok > I think the reference to "copyright licenses" is a bit unfortunate. > Why is this reference to "copyright" necessary? Can you suggest a better term? - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Aug 15 14:34:55 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GD3kd-0004Rf-7B for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 14:34:55 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GD3kT-0005sw-Ox for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 14:34:55 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7FIBkGn023542; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 11:11:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7FIBknm023541; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 11:11:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k7FIBiii023506 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 11:11:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 15 Aug 2006 18:11:39 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-244-136.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.244.136] by mail.gmx.net (mp043) with SMTP; 15 Aug 2006 20:11:39 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 20:11:39 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: Atom Syntax Subject: Finally Atom: Blogger is here Message-ID: <20060815181139.GV2617@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k7FIBkGn023542 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Hi all, about time, I say. In irc.freenode.org/atom, copper just linked to , which reads: We=E2=80=99ve added some additional feed options for our more advanced users. Now you can have a feed for all the comments on your blog, and even individual feeds for all the comments on each separate post. We=E2=80=99ve also added support for the RSS 2.0 and Atom 1.0 standards. That makes what, another few dozen million Atom 1.0 feeds? Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Aug 15 16:32:04 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GD5a0-0005Qf-7e for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 16:32:04 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GD5Zx-000886-OH for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 16:32:04 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7FKAglb050861; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:10:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7FKAgHc050860; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:10:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k7FKAeam050820 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:10:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from derhoermi@gmx.net) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 15 Aug 2006 20:10:34 -0000 Received: from dslb-084-056-211-153.pools.arcor-ip.net (EHLO hive) [84.56.211.153] by mail.gmx.net (mp010) with SMTP; 15 Aug 2006 22:10:34 +0200 X-Authenticated: #723575 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann To: James M Snell Cc: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Atom license link last call Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 22:10:34 +0200 Message-ID: <3b84e2lijal7kdqjf3o6mb6gg9qe7kvs48@hive.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> References: <44E121A9.9060705@gmail.com> <44E1F80C.9030503@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <44E1F80C.9030503@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k7FKAglb050861 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa * James M Snell wrote: >Another concern that was raised to me by a colleague is that the license >resource being pointed to could change over time, meaning that the >license being referenced today may not be the same license being used >tomorrow even tho URIs may be exactly the same. If the license is >controlled by a different entity than the publisher of the entry, this >could cause problems. Yeah, it would be good to have some of these things mentioned in the draft, if only to encourage people to let a lawyer review tools they may build upon this new link relation. >Unfortunately, there is no language in RFC4287 I can draw upon here. Okay, I guess this should be looked at when RFC 4287 is revised. >Yes, this should be clarified. Feed level licenses cover the metadata >of the feed (title, subtitle, etc). I've actually found very little use >for feed level licenses and would actually be quite happy to remove them >from the spec completely. I think removing it would be better, yeah. >> I think the concept of "informational content" used to explain some >> of these things is too unclear to me to answer these questions. >>=20 >Ok I hope you can come up with a better term and/or explain this better in the draft, as I'd have similar difficulties for entries. >> I think the reference to "copyright licenses" is a bit unfortunate. >> Why is this reference to "copyright" necessary? > >Can you suggest a better term? Just "licenses"? --=20 Bj=F6rn H=F6hrmann =B7 mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de =B7 http://bjoern.hoehr= mann.de Weinh. Str. 22 =B7 Telefon: +49(0)621/4309674 =B7 http://www.bjoernsworld= .de 68309 Mannheim =B7 PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 =B7 http://www.websitedev.d= e/=20 From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Aug 15 17:00:24 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GD61Q-0007Pb-Qk for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:00:24 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GD61P-0001GF-EP for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:00:24 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7FKISVT052677; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:18:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7FKISR3052676; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:18:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.239]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7FKIPfs052667 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:18:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id t12so1581426wxc for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:18:25 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=lO8cr7xIIcYDp1VNHLiOglby19mStIrgzaqSRSxhA4PBrgz1qY59Lzrn9aEFzv4IDqS7DIdbA+dhSyt5Rt7I+YL9/UlCBw1ROddYEbn60Ng4MZkx+qZqNPh1lN+sIvrCUifayYiMYkTKz8HD8a16dCSyNJw+g4lVPTvPllOZBZU= Received: by 10.70.44.5 with SMTP id r5mr1617985wxr; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.218.96]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 5sm3070699wrh.2006.08.15.13.18.23; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <44E22C0C.9060204@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:18:20 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060719) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Atom license link last call References: <44E121A9.9060705@gmail.com> <44E1F80C.9030503@gmail.com> <3b84e2lijal7kdqjf3o6mb6gg9qe7kvs48@hive.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> In-Reply-To: <3b84e2lijal7kdqjf3o6mb6gg9qe7kvs48@hive.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Based on this and other feedback, I think I've come up with language that is much more effective. It keeps feed level licenses but very clearly specifies what they cover. I am putting the polishing touches on the draft and will send it off shortly. - James Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: > [snip[ > Yeah, it would be good to have some of these things mentioned in the > draft, if only to encourage people to let a lawyer review tools they > may build upon this new link relation. >[snip] >> for feed level licenses and would actually be quite happy to remove them >>from the spec completely. > > I think removing it would be better, yeah. > > [snip] > I hope you can come up with a better term and/or explain this better > in the draft, as I'd have similar difficulties for entries. > >>> I think the reference to "copyright licenses" is a bit unfortunate. >>> Why is this reference to "copyright" necessary? >> Can you suggest a better term? > > Just "licenses"? From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Aug 15 19:56:02 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GD8lO-0005gJ-PZ for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 19:56:02 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GD8lM-0000vT-CO for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 19:56:02 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7FNeABF003161; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 16:40:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7FNeAw9003160; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 16:40:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from homer.w3.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7FNe9wN003150 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 16:40:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from karl@w3.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86A244F2DA; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 19:40:05 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: References: <44E121A9.9060705@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <441179F7-5253-43C0-8201-C478FB401231@w3.org> Cc: James M Snell , atom-syntax From: Karl Dubost Subject: Re: Atom license link last call Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 08:39:50 +0900 To: Bjoern Hoehrmann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id k7FNeAwN003155 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k7FNeABF003161 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Le 16 ao=FBt 06 =E0 01:16, Bjoern Hoehrmann a =E9crit : > * James M Snell wrote: >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-=20 >> license-06.txt > I do not quite understand feed-level licenses, the draft just says > what they don't cover, not what they do cover. Say I make a feed with > the five most insightful blog postings on international politics and > I license the feed under the most permissive license possible. Can > you then copy my list of entries over to your top five list? hmmm. I would not say that it's not useful but there are potentially =20 troubles. We should have a use case reasoning with regards to the =20 technology and *not* the legal aspects. I can indeed decide to license the content for all my feed items in =20 one shot because I own the content. If it's the meaning of link at =20 the feed level, no trouble. So with regards to the comment of Bjoern, what's missing is the scope =20 nature of link, not necessary if it's right or not to license a =20 republished content with difference license. Here it fells in the =20 legal part of it, which has to been handle by the civic society. --=20 Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Aug 16 21:25:44 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GDWdk-0003cq-3b for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 21:25:44 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GDWdi-0007TX-Kk for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 21:25:44 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7H12x3k086418; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 18:02:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7H12xsC086417; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 18:02:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chilco.textdrive.com (chilco.textdrive.com [207.7.108.242]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7H12uJi086386 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 18:02:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [83.70.44.1]) by chilco.textdrive.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F457DB991 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 01:02:49 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <44E3C039.50508@dehora.net> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 02:02:49 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bill_de_h=D3ra?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (Windows/20060719) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom-Syntax Syntax Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-06.txt References: <1AFCF4EB-F605-4F8A-858A-7F76521B5759@mnot.net> <44A4904B.4020705@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Mark Nottingham wrote: > How about: > > [[[ > Archive documents are feed documents that contain less recent entries in > the feed. The set of entries contained in an archive document published > at a particular URI SHOULD NOT change over time. Likewise, the URI for a > particular archive document SHOULD NOT change over time. > > These stability requirements allow clients to make certain assumptions > about archive documents; they may safely assume that if they have > retrieved the archive document at a particular URI once, it will not > meaningfully change in the future. > ]]] they may safely assume -> they can safely assume - ie, this boils to a cache directive - any need to specify what one can infer here? You could state there are consequences when servers deviate from SHOULD NOT. But +1, sounds good. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Aug 16 21:47:29 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GDWyn-0003YH-Cx for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 21:47:29 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GDWBR-0002Pm-HO for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:56:29 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GDW1b-00006E-Hi for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:46:22 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7H0JLvB080484; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 17:19:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7H0JLYh080483; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 17:19:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [205.237.194.35]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7H0JJ7A080475 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 17:19:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [216.145.54.158]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69C47A32A3; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:19:18 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <44A4904B.4020705@gmail.com> References: <1AFCF4EB-F605-4F8A-858A-7F76521B5759@mnot.net> <44A4904B.4020705@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Atom-Syntax Syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-06.txt Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 17:19:15 -0700 To: James M Snell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa On 2006/06/29, at 7:45 PM, James M Snell wrote: > > A couple of comments... > > > Section 6 > > Archive documents are feed documents that contain less recent > entries > in the feed. The set of entries contained in an archive document > published at a particular URI MUST NOT change over time. > > I definitely understand the motivation for the "MUST NOT" here, but > I'm > not sure if it's enforceable. For instance, on my blog, I may go back > and delete an old entry that appears within an archive feed. Such a > change should be reflected in the archive feed. I would recommend > changing this to a "SHOULD NOT" with a comment that removing entries > from an archive document has a negative impact on the cacheability of > the document and the effectiveness of the archive. How about: [[[ Archive documents are feed documents that contain less recent entries in the feed. The set of entries contained in an archive document published at a particular URI SHOULD NOT change over time. Likewise, the URI for a particular archive document SHOULD NOT change over time. These stability requirements allow clients to make certain assumptions about archive documents; they may safely assume that if they have retrieved the archive document at a particular URI once, it will not meaningfully change in the future. ]]] > > Section 6.1 > > The archive document examples do not have the element Fixed; thanks (and to Stefan as well). -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Aug 17 08:13:37 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GDgkj-0000PL-CI for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 08:13:37 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GDgkg-000525-OB for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 08:13:37 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7HBrjxt006290; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 04:53:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7HBrj0k006289; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 04:53:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mout1.freenet.de (mout1.freenet.de [194.97.50.132]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7HBrfIf006275; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 04:53:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from sewe@rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de) Received: from [194.97.50.135] (helo=mx2.freenet.de) by mout1.freenet.de with esmtpa (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1GDgRQ-0006nc-2d; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 13:53:40 +0200 Received: from ultra17.rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de ([130.83.160.107]) by mx2.freenet.de with esmtpsa (ID sewe2004@freenet.de) (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.62 #2) id 1GDgRP-0003kI-Tq; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 13:53:40 +0200 Message-ID: <44E458B9.90006@rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 13:53:29 +0200 From: Andreas Sewe Organization: Fachbereich Informatik, TU Darmstadt User-Agent: Mail/News 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060727) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham CC: Atom Syntax , Atom Publishing Protocol Subject: Re: Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-06.txt References: <1AFCF4EB-F605-4F8A-858A-7F76521B5759@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <1AFCF4EB-F605-4F8A-858A-7F76521B5759@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2086112c730e13d5955355df27e3074b Hi Mark, hi everyone, (I have Cc'ed this to atom-protocol, too, since it is about an implementation of both Feed History and APP.) So let's consider a scenario where both APP and Feed History are to be implemented. But, to reduce server load, as many documents as possible are to be served statically. Now this could be done as follows for an APP Collection whose collection URI is . This URI would also serve as the feed's subscription URI. (Furthermore the APP Collection supports collection paging, and is hence a Paged Feed as per Feed History, too.) (Well, I said "could be done" -- according to my understanding of both Feed History and APP, but I might very well be wrong. That's why I want to hear your opinion on it. ;-) Focusing on the retrieval of the logical feed or collection for the moment, let's consider the following protocol exchange: GET http://example.com/feed/current HTTP/1.1 [...] HTTP/1.1 307 Temporary Redirect Location: http://example.com/feed/2006-08 [...] GET http://example.com/feed/2006-08 HTTP/1.1 [...] http://example.com/feed http://example.com/entry/one 2006-08-16T12:55:00 2006-08-16T12:55:00 GET http://example.com/feed/2006-07 HTTP/1.1 [...] HTTP/1.1 200 OK [...] http://example.com/feed http://example.com/entry/one 2006-07-20T14:00:00 2006-07-20T14:00:00 http://example.com/entry/one 2006-07-01T07:30:00 2006-07-01T07:30:00 Now what happens when entries are created or modified via the APP? Whenever an entry is created it is simply added to the "current" page. But whenever an entry is modified the modified entry is added to the atom:feed page for the current month, too; less recent revisions of the entry are *not* removed unless the current page would then contain the modified entry twice with the *same* app:updated timestamp (but different app:modified timestamps, of course) since that is forbidden per RFC 4287. So every POST or PUT only ever modifies the "current" page. Obsolete revisions of an entry are simply hidden by their more recent counterparts. Now what is nice about using monthly archive documents as above is that you never need to change the archived page once the corresponding month is over; all archived documents can be served statically. This is because the atom:links to the "next"/"prev-archive" and to the "previous"/"next-archive" pages won't change at all (the month before August 2006 being always July 2006 :-). And the "current" atom:link needs not to be changed either, thanks to HTTP's temporary redirection. Note, however, that the second atom:feed page at contains the atom:entry with atom:id twice but with different atom:updated timestamps. Only insignificant changes (only app:modified changes, not atom:updated) are overwritten by more recent insignificant changes. Each significantly changed entry is preserved in both the subscription and archive documents. OK, I hope I was able to describe my implementation clearly enough. Now here is my question: Is it broken? ;-) What still looks dubious to me is the directionality of "previous"/"next" and "next-archive"/"prev-archive". Did I get that one right? It looks rather strange with "next" and "prev-archive" pointing to the same document. Also I am not sure whether it is alright per Feed History when an subscription or archive document contains an entry more than once, although with different atom:updated timestamps. Mark, are there any problems with this? Regards, Andreas Sewe From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Aug 17 11:56:42 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GDkEc-0002e5-U5 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:56:42 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GDkEa-0006WG-Fc for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:56:42 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7HFTd3g047051; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 08:29:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7HFTdGR047050; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 08:29:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.239]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7HFTaMv047044 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 08:29:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id t12so429813wxc for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 08:29:36 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=FFPkM90dRZDJjvw0UeMSh4AWF7q6hKAyoDQtFzQjReabukFbkUz2NbvhCRfArqxDM+zwm3uxgSiNY8m12/9oLzo0+Bav71xkQbdt/yRs2yANf4qb6gy87gzeI+qcoiAwbraEms1nY7B0+KbCZv4ytS7V675bKF20hDuorXllfq4= Received: by 10.70.77.2 with SMTP id z2mr2965128wxa; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 08:29:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.218.96]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 15sm159044wrl.2006.08.17.08.29.34; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 08:29:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <44E48B5C.9080509@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 08:29:32 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060719) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bjoern Hoehrmann CC: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Atom license link last call References: <44E121A9.9060705@gmail.com> <44E1F80C.9030503@gmail.com> <3b84e2lijal7kdqjf3o6mb6gg9qe7kvs48@hive.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> In-Reply-To: <3b84e2lijal7kdqjf3o6mb6gg9qe7kvs48@hive.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 1.9 (+) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 Hello Bjoern, Please take a look at the latest draft: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-license-07.txt - James Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: > * James M Snell wrote: >> Another concern that was raised to me by a colleague is that the license >> resource being pointed to could change over time, meaning that the >> license being referenced today may not be the same license being used >> tomorrow even tho URIs may be exactly the same. If the license is >> controlled by a different entity than the publisher of the entry, this >> could cause problems. > > Yeah, it would be good to have some of these things mentioned in the > draft, if only to encourage people to let a lawyer review tools they > may build upon this new link relation. > >> Unfortunately, there is no language in RFC4287 I can draw upon here. > > Okay, I guess this should be looked at when RFC 4287 is revised. > >> Yes, this should be clarified. Feed level licenses cover the metadata >> of the feed (title, subtitle, etc). I've actually found very little use >> for feed level licenses and would actually be quite happy to remove them >>from the spec completely. > > I think removing it would be better, yeah. > >>> I think the concept of "informational content" used to explain some >>> of these things is too unclear to me to answer these questions. >>> >> Ok > > I hope you can come up with a better term and/or explain this better > in the draft, as I'd have similar difficulties for entries. > >>> I think the reference to "copyright licenses" is a bit unfortunate. >>> Why is this reference to "copyright" necessary? >> Can you suggest a better term? > > Just "licenses"? From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Aug 18 14:36:14 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GE9Bj-0005Jq-Cj for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:35:23 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GE97C-0001W5-F7 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:30:46 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7IIIRXk030616; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:18:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7IIIRP8030615; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:18:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.195]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7IIIQfS030601 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:18:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 12so561652nzp for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:18:20 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=HToJ7xa959TNl+yqh7I38MApCEYMpR8P6mwwt+4Oj2ButRnkycHirtWIX/qIhSTEsQZ68xJp6mnPL5wU9+mjOzSYuxy7LlTrhn0I+CfaaRbM3OVCaGHw6HYAsB7/tUM+UobmwGZ66d29GDEbfafHZ1g3PvTkObPWN37v2KQCrRM= Received: by 10.64.250.3 with SMTP id x3mr1529858qbh; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:18:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.218.96]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 28sm204417wrl.2006.08.18.11.18.18; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <44E60466.5030400@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:18:14 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060719) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'atom-syntax'" Subject: Re: Atom license link last call References: <004001c6c2f1$53b0a430$6500a8c0@BOBSLAPTOP> In-Reply-To: <004001c6c2f1$53b0a430$6500a8c0@BOBSLAPTOP> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 25620135586de10c627e3628c432b04a Hello Bob, Bob Wyman wrote: > James, > My apologies if these questions and comments have been dealt with > before: > * What is the expected or intended relationship between data carried > in the atom:rights element and data pointed to by the license relationship? The relationship is subtle, but important, consider the following example pulled from draft-07 that I just published: http://www.example.com/myfeed My Example Feed 2005-07-28T12:00:00Z Copyright (c) 2005. Some rights reserved. This feed is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribute-NonCommercial Use License. It contains material originally published by Jane Smith at http://www.example.com/entries/1 under the Creative Commons Attribute License. James tag:entries.org,2005:1 Atom Powered Robots Run Amok 2005-06-28T12:00:00Z Atom Powered Robots Run Amok Jane Smith Note that the feed level rights element covers the attribute requirement of the contained element. The distinction is similar to NOTICE and LICENSE files distributed with many open source projects. > * Why did you choose the word "license" when Atom itself uses the > word "rights" for a very similar (if not identical) concept? Because I specifically wanted to differentiate the two. > * If the intent of the license link is to provide a mechanism to > support "out of line" rights elements, then did you consider doing something > similar to the handling of out-of-line atom: content via a "src" attribute? > For example: Does the license link do anything that would not be > accomplished by adding support for rights elements in the following form: > > Changing the atom:rights element via an extension is out of the question. The rights element is what it is. > * If a feed reader discovers both atom:rights and a license link in > a single entry or feed, is there any concept of precedence between the two? > For instance, if the text of the license is more or less restrictive than > what is in the atom:rights element, what should the reader assume about the > rights that are granted? > The two serve different, but related, purposes. The two should not contradict each other. If they do, consumers must go back to the content publisher to resolve the problem. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Aug 18 14:37:07 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GE9C0-0005NU-SX for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:35:40 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GE935-0008HS-8Y for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:26:28 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7II8n0g028609; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:08:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7II8nCP028608; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:08:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr3.networksolutionsemail.com (omr3.networksolutionsemail.com [205.178.146.53]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7II8kIv028566 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:08:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from mail.networksolutionsemail.com (ns-omr3.mgt.netsolmail.com [10.49.6.66]) by omr3.networksolutionsemail.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id k7II8doq030226 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:08:39 -0400 Received: (qmail 8634 invoked by uid 78); 18 Aug 2006 18:08:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO BOBSLAPTOP) (69.201.178.152) by ns-omr3.lb.hosting.dc2.netsol.com with SMTP; 18 Aug 2006 18:08:38 -0000 From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'James M Snell'" , "'atom-syntax'" Subject: RE: Atom license link last call Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:08:36 -0400 Message-ID: <004001c6c2f1$53b0a430$6500a8c0@BOBSLAPTOP> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 In-Reply-To: <44E121A9.9060705@gmail.com> Thread-Index: AcbADwNbYIxxOQW8QlmX+1f9bemBDgC32izQ Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 James, My apologies if these questions and comments have been dealt with before: * What is the expected or intended relationship between data carried in the atom:rights element and data pointed to by the license relationship? * Why did you choose the word "license" when Atom itself uses the word "rights" for a very similar (if not identical) concept? * If the intent of the license link is to provide a mechanism to support "out of line" rights elements, then did you consider doing something similar to the handling of out-of-line atom: content via a "src" attribute? For example: Does the license link do anything that would not be accomplished by adding support for rights elements in the following form: * If a feed reader discovers both atom:rights and a license link in a single entry or feed, is there any concept of precedence between the two? For instance, if the text of the license is more or less restrictive than what is in the atom:rights element, what should the reader assume about the rights that are granted? bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Aug 18 17:32:14 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GEBws-0006pU-A8 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:32:14 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GEBwn-0002p3-QK for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:32:14 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7ILAGcI059904; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:10:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7ILAG5v059903; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:10:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.233]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7ILACul059873 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:10:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id t12so795354wxc for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:10:12 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=W9yeJ6DqBOb1Aii1MvJi+YlxRCDhW28rczDUw3mmk2Y8Q8iOk6h+jCTWmLROK4pMFZPLFwcD77tbuVjdwmo3ynJ1S9Elp2uZicYbpKVR/zB0VBly/fxxtMxmUKsn8mr/Xcwtgirjc7p4Rzx6FCJByhLK+rHT5Y1NuQTlMSjy4To= Received: by 10.70.52.5 with SMTP id z5mr5411121wxz; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:10:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.104? ( [67.181.218.96]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 35sm805383wra.2006.08.18.14.10.11; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:10:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <44E62CAF.7020504@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:10:07 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060719) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax Subject: New Feed Rank Draft Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 1.9 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Hey all, Andreas Sewe and I have published a new draft of the feed rank draft. This is a major update that greatly simplifies the specification. As a refresher, Feed Rank aims to provide a standardized extension for associating numeric rankings with entries. Such ranks can be used for a broad variety of purposes. Standardizing such a mechanism eliminates the need for vendors to go off and invent their own elements that serve identical purposes (e.g. Gdata has a rating element, Digg has a rating element, etc). Example, ... http://example.com/movies/starwars Star Wars 123 53 ... http://example.com/movies/citylights Charlie Chaplin: City Lights 5734 27 ... - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Aug 19 18:04:21 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GEYvV-0002Cd-II for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 18:04:21 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GEW3H-0007MP-RS for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 15:00:11 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GEVpR-0001Gp-Iz for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 14:45:58 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7JIRHkQ098143; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 11:27:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7JIRHxw098142; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 11:27:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail1.webfaction.com (mail1.webfaction.com [67.15.2.85]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7JIREAI098119 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 11:27:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from sh@defuze.org) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (host81-159-110-66.range81-159.btcentralplus.com [81.159.110.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail1.webfaction.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k7JIRCID019670 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 13:27:13 -0500 Message-ID: <44E757F2.5070007@defuze.org> Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 19:26:58 +0100 From: Sylvain Hellegouarch Reply-To: sh@defuze.org User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060719) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom-Syntax Subject: Atomixlib update for you pythoners Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 7aefe408d50e9c7c47615841cb314bed FYI http://www.defuze.org/archives/2006/08/19/atomixlib-egg - Sylvain From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Aug 21 16:30:04 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GFGPM-0006hl-FH for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:30:04 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GFGML-0008Td-O4 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:27:00 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7LJw9mN095667; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 12:58:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7LJw90D095666; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 12:58:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr2.networksolutionsemail.com (omr2.networksolutionsemail.com [205.178.146.52]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7LJvxMo095621 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 12:58:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from mail.networksolutionsemail.com (ns-omr2.mgt.netsol.com [10.49.6.65]) by omr2.networksolutionsemail.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id k7LJvwwh001086 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 15:57:59 -0400 Received: (qmail 24851 invoked by uid 78); 21 Aug 2006 19:57:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO BOBSLAPTOP) (69.201.178.152) by ns-omr2.lb.hosting.dc2.netsol.com with SMTP; 21 Aug 2006 19:57:53 -0000 From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'James M Snell'" , "'atom-syntax'" Subject: RE: Atom license link last call Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 15:57:43 -0400 Message-ID: <001c01c6c55c$15603ed0$6500a8c0@BOBSLAPTOP> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Thread-Index: AcbC9cLxLH11h6XPTIOc/YhuYX9nWgCZVB0A In-Reply-To: <44E60466.5030400@gmail.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab James Snell wrote: > [1] The relationship [between license and atom:right] is > subtle, but important ... > [2] I specifically wanted to differentiate the two. ... > [3] The two serve different, but related, purposes. The > two should not contradict each other. If they do, > consumers must go back to the content publisher to > resolve the problem. Given the subtle differences, the claimed importance of the differences, and their supposed utility, I would strongly suggest that these points should be clearly stated in the ID itself. It is highly unlikely that readers of an eventual RFC are going to universally come here and read the illuminating messages in the mailing list archive. Thus, the subtle distinctions that you see are highly likely to be lost once the RFC is published -- unless you document them. Also, it is more likely that reviewers will be able to make more informed judgments if these distinctions are clearly documented in the ID text. bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Aug 21 16:30:17 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GFGPQ-0006qh-A6 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:30:08 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GFGKu-00089r-Bs for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:25:30 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7LK2E2U096486; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 13:02:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7LK2Ega096485; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 13:02:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from omr3.networksolutionsemail.com (omr3.networksolutionsemail.com [205.178.146.53]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7LK27SU096466 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 13:02:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from bob@wyman.us) Received: from mail.networksolutionsemail.com (ns-omr3.mgt.netsolmail.com [10.49.6.66]) by omr3.networksolutionsemail.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id k7LK1jLp017115 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:01:45 -0400 Received: (qmail 8142 invoked by uid 78); 21 Aug 2006 20:01:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO BOBSLAPTOP) (69.201.178.152) by ns-omr3.lb.hosting.dc2.netsol.com with SMTP; 21 Aug 2006 20:01:44 -0000 From: "Bob Wyman" To: "'A. Pagaltzis'" , "'Atom Syntax'" Subject: RE: Finally Atom: Blogger is here Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:01:39 -0400 Message-ID: <002301c6c55c$9ee10d10$6500a8c0@BOBSLAPTOP> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Thread-Index: AcbAm6NekVymH0sZSh6C2KpTTOGG+QEwJAxg In-Reply-To: <20060815181139.GV2617@klangraum> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote: > [Now that Blogger supports both RSS 2.0 and Atom 1.0] > That makes what, another few dozen million Atom 1.0 feeds? Yes, many, many more than before. But also many more legacy RSS 2.0 feeds. Which leads to the inevitable rhetorical question: Why the heck do people keep insisting that the industry continue to support new deployments of RSS 2.0? This is just silliness. bob wyman From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Aug 22 05:23:53 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GFSUD-0008MS-Jv for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 05:23:53 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GFSU9-0005Tx-57 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 05:23:53 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7M93PHZ085859; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 02:03:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7M93PAP085858; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 02:03:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mout0.freenet.de (mout0.freenet.de [194.97.50.131]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7M93O9h085851 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 02:03:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from sewe@rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de) Received: from [194.97.50.135] (helo=mx2.freenet.de) by mout0.freenet.de with esmtpa (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1GFSAN-0007kJ-LE; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 11:03:23 +0200 Received: from ultra16.rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de ([130.83.160.106]) by mx2.freenet.de with esmtpsa (ID sewe2004@freenet.de) (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.62 #2) id 1GFSAN-0005J9-Hf; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 11:03:23 +0200 Message-ID: <44EAC85A.7020801@rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 11:03:22 +0200 From: Andreas Sewe Organization: Fachbereich Informatik, TU Darmstadt User-Agent: Mail/News 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060727) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James M Snell CC: "'atom-syntax'" Subject: Re: Atom license link last call References: <004001c6c2f1$53b0a430$6500a8c0@BOBSLAPTOP> <44E60466.5030400@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <44E60466.5030400@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 James M Snell wrote: > Bob Wyman wrote: >> * Why did you choose the word "license" when Atom itself uses the >> word "rights" for a very similar (if not identical) concept? > > Because I specifically wanted to differentiate the two. IIRC James' answer to a mail I wrote him about the very same issue, it is also to maintain consistency with the already established rel-license microformat . FWIW, the above page claims that "Rel-License is a simple, open, format for indicating content licenses which is embedable in (X)HTML, Atom, RSS, and arbitrary XML." But using rel="license" on atom:link would have been, up to James' I-D, highly dubious, since that would have been equivalent to which is not yet registered. Maybe we should tell the microformats.org people that Atom uses IRIs for its link relations, not bare names. (They would even benefit from it, since some experimental relation would not require IANA registration.) Regards, Andreas Sewe From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Aug 30 23:18:14 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GId4I-0002rj-3H for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 23:18:14 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GIasq-000459-8t for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:58:16 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GIalM-0003Dq-Ea for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:50:36 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7V0Ug7f076971; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:30:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7V0UgPG076970; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:30:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.174]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7V0UeXv076952 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:30:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from xmlhacker@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id m3so383711uge for ; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:30:36 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:mime-version:content-type; b=uN1As0Sgmaao0us4jF71Bi/MazZK6jWvus9woQMRKjwzB7rS5FNMmRvcWFiA0cmBIRo1H2M6ZATfeg0eA8yYOUOu78AJgOahSR9JWsTfQdcWQIWlC+V6nuAbxdPtp4NvLz6KbMYjRGy5uWIcr79sVafvkamNPnmpd+50AGVzNbs= Received: by 10.67.24.13 with SMTP id b13mr150184ugj; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:30:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.66.217.10 with HTTP; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:30:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 18:30:36 -0600 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "atom-syntax Syntax" Subject: Can/Does/Should the FeedValidator catch improperly escaped XHTML? Cc: "Anthony Casalena" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_46811_28374810.1156984236050" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 ------=_Part_46811_28374810.1156984236050 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline via http://www.oreillynet.com/xml/blog/2006/08/and_the_winner_of_the_best_ind_1.html#comment-75533 There's one other small problem though: they put XHTML as CDATA in "html" > text constructs, while they're supposed to contain HTML 4. And since it's > XHTML, they should embed it directly in "xhtml" constructs... Anthony brings out a good point > http://www.oreillynet.com/xml/blog/2006/08/and_the_winner_of_the_best_ind_1.html#comment-75822<, Odd that the validator isn't saying anything about this. Should it, or is this an edge case that can be difficult, at best, to catch? -- /M:D M. David Peterson http://mdavid.name | http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/2354 ------=_Part_46811_28374810.1156984236050 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
There's one other small problem though: they put XHTML as CDATA in "html" text constructs, while they're supposed to contain HTML 4. And since it's XHTML, they should embed it directly in "xhtml" constructs...

Anthony brings out a good point > http://www.oreillynet.com/xml/blog/2006/08/and_the_winner_of_the_best_ind_1.html#comment-75822 <,

Odd that the validator isn't saying anything about this.

Should it, or is this an edge case that can be difficult, at best, to catch?

--
/M:D

M. David Peterson
http://mdavid.name | http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/2354 ------=_Part_46811_28374810.1156984236050-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Aug 31 08:51:58 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GIm1W-0007Xq-C3 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:51:58 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GIlc8-0006pn-AP for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:25:44 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GIlKy-0004ji-FH for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:08:04 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7VBp9i9001419; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 04:51:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7VBp9KF001416; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 04:51:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vanadium.sabren.com (vanadium.sabren.com [67.19.173.84]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7VBp11b001265 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 04:51:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.1.108] (cpe-066-057-027-065.nc.res.rr.com [66.57.27.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by vanadium.sabren.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k7VBow1I013597; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 07:50:58 -0400 Message-ID: <44F6CD20.803@intertwingly.net> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 07:50:56 -0400 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "M. David Peterson" CC: atom-syntax Syntax , Anthony Casalena Subject: Re: Can/Does/Should the FeedValidator catch improperly escaped XHTML? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 M. David Peterson wrote: > via > http://www.oreillynet.com/xml/blog/2006/08/and_the_winner_of_the_best_ind_1.html#comment-75533 > > There's one other small problem though: they put XHTML as CDATA in > "html" text constructs, while they're supposed to contain HTML 4. > And since it's XHTML, they should embed it directly in "xhtml" > constructs... > > Anthony brings out a good point > > http://www.oreillynet.com/xml/blog/2006/08/and_the_winner_of_the_best_ind_1.html#comment-75822 > <, > > Odd that the validator isn't saying anything about this. > > Should it, or is this an edge case that can be difficult, at best, to catch? At the moment, the HTML content is passed through the following: http://docs.python.org/lib/module-HTMLParser.html Note that this parser includes a handle_startendtag method, which is not a part of the HTML standard. Given the rather loose nature of HTML, this only tends to catch things like unmatched angle brackets and quotes. Also, there are a number of tools that attempt to produce well-formed XHTML, but don't do so consistently enough to drop the content into an Atom feed in such a manner. - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Aug 31 16:48:24 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GItSa-0006Gm-5G for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:48:24 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GItSY-0001gF-Kv for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:48:24 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7VKSFCM082571; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:28:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7VKSFkx082570; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:28:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.174]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7VKS3pO082539 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:28:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from xmlhacker@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id m3so700806uge for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:28:02 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=QVdsZvWu8pKN6M1t/9b1VBjFrpv/ogaTgWF/4i3EGHBV1VkPO3BdCp5ktEwV6aSbH2zzqwarjwR8shShVbNRDBROAN0hkH9YmG4m/TSpQjvBJ41VYOShTzRgc0YEoBsJ/XGNYbYv/xN/Uvh8KZRkY54/wAv3s6ShQz0rejz0XcY= Received: by 10.66.240.12 with SMTP id n12mr769667ugh; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:28:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.66.217.10 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:28:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 14:28:02 -0600 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "Sam Ruby" Subject: Re: Can/Does/Should the FeedValidator catch improperly escaped XHTML? Cc: "atom-syntax Syntax" , "Anthony Casalena" In-Reply-To: <44F6CD20.803@intertwingly.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_67071_2852437.1157056082263" References: <44F6CD20.803@intertwingly.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 ------=_Part_67071_2852437.1157056082263 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Thanks for the response/info Sam! On 8/31/06, Sam Ruby wrote: > > > Also, there are a number of tools that attempt to produce well-formed > XHTML, but don't do so consistently enough to drop the content into an > Atom feed in such a manner. I assume this is from an XHTML standpoint (meaning the result isn't a one-to-one HTML > XHTML ~equivalent) and not an well formed XML standpoint? Not that it really matters all that much as if the result isn't a solid representation of the authors original intent, then theres really no other alternative than to escape it and tag it as HTML. In short, unless the above is incorrect, then both Anthony and the FeedValidator are doing all that they both can and should be doing. Is this a fair statement? -- /M:D M. David Peterson http://mdavid.name | http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/2354 ------=_Part_67071_2852437.1157056082263 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Thanks for the response/info Sam!

On 8/31/06, Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net> wrote:

Also, there are a number of tools that attempt to produce well-formed
XHTML, but don't do so consistently enough to drop the content into an
Atom feed in such a manner.

I assume this is from an XHTML standpoint (meaning the result isn't a one-to-one HTML > XHTML ~equivalent) and not an well formed XML standpoint?  Not that it really matters all that much as if the result isn't a solid representation of the authors original intent, then theres really no other alternative than to escape it and tag it as HTML.

In short, unless the above is incorrect, then both Anthony and the FeedValidator are doing all that they both can and should be doing.

Is this a fair statement?

--
/M:D

M. David Peterson
http://mdavid.name | http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/2354 ------=_Part_67071_2852437.1157056082263-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Aug 31 17:14:10 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GItrW-0007XT-RS for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:14:10 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GItrS-00069m-Fd for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:14:10 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7VKwCZL085053; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:58:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7VKwCFT085052; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:58:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spunkymail-a3.dreamhost.com (sd-green-bigip-61.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.61]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7VKw7xD085006 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:58:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from asbjorn@tigerstaden.no) Received: from quark (202.84-48-117.nextgentel.com [84.48.117.202]) by spunkymail-a3.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B7C5196B5B; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:57:59 +0200 To: "Sam Ruby" , "M. David Peterson" Subject: Re: Can/Does/Should the FeedValidator catch improperly escaped XHTML? From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= Cc: "atom-syntax Syntax" , "Anthony Casalena" Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <44F6CD20.803@intertwingly.net> Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <44F6CD20.803@intertwingly.net> User-Agent: Opera Mail/9.01 (Win32) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k7VKwCZL085053 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:50:56 +0200, Sam Ruby =20 wrote: > Also, there are a number of tools that attempt to produce well-formed =20 > XHTML, but don't do so consistently enough to drop the content into an = =20 > Atom feed in such a manner. But is it possible to check the wellformedness of the markup inside =20 atom:content and suggest that the authors use 'type=3D"xhtml"' instead of= =20 'type=3D"html"' if it is indeed wellformed X(HT)ML? It's a real stretch i= n =20 terms of how far the validator should go, but I can definately see its =20 usefulness. --=20 Asbj=F8rn Ulsberg -=3D|=3D- http://virtuelvis.com/quark/ =ABHe's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away=BB From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Aug 31 19:32:32 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GIw1Q-0003w2-MT for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:32:32 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GIw1L-0000q0-AE for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:32:32 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7VNJluv097385; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:19:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7VNJl3c097384; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:19:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc3-s38.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc3-s38.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.238]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7VNJkah097374 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:19:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([207.46.9.143]) by bay0-omc3-s38.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:19:40 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:19:40 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 85.210.175.0 by BAY120-DAV5.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:19:37 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [85.210.175.0] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "atom-syntax Syntax" References: <44F6CD20.803@intertwingly.net> Subject: Re: Can/Does/Should the FeedValidator catch improperly escaped XHTML? Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:19:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Aug 2006 23:19:40.0240 (UTC) FILETIME=[EF006D00:01C6CD53] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id k7VNJluv097385 X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Asbj=F8rn Ulsberg wrote: > But is it possible to check the wellformedness of the markup inside=20 > atom:content and suggest that the authors use 'type=3D"xhtml"' instead = of=20 > 'type=3D"html"' if it is indeed wellformed X(HT)ML? It's a real stretch= in=20 > terms of how far the validator should go, but I can definately see its=20 > usefulness. -1 Just because a feed appears to contain well-formed xhtml content today, t= hat=20 doesn't mean it's going to be well-formed tomorrow. Encouraging people to= =20 use xhtml when they don't know enough to have made that decision themselv= es=20 is just asking for trouble. Sooner or later they're going to end up with=20 broken xml which will be completely unreadable in many aggregators. Also, escaped html tends to be better supported by aggregators anyway. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Aug 31 20:14:31 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GIwg3-0007sM-5a for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:14:31 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GIwfk-0005WI-Vy for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:14:21 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k8101sPT000514; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:01:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k8101s7P000513; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:01:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id k8101qus000496 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:01:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 01 Sep 2006 00:01:46 -0000 Received: from xdsl-213-196-225-102.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [213.196.225.102] by mail.gmx.net (mp038) with SMTP; 01 Sep 2006 02:01:46 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 02:01:54 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax Syntax Subject: Re: Can/Does/Should the FeedValidator catch improperly escaped XHTML? Message-ID: <20060901000154.GA19253@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax Syntax References: <44F6CD20.803@intertwingly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 * James Holderness [2006-09-01 01:30]: > Encouraging people to use xhtml when they don't know enough to > have made that decision themselves is just asking for trouble. +1 Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Aug 31 20:25:34 2006 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GIwqk-0002gZ-RP for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:25:34 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GIvZU-00062q-LW for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:03:40 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GIvVu-0005mp-2g for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:00:00 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7VMcJj2094339; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:38:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k7VMcJVp094338; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:38:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.168]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k7VMcFu9094332 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:38:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from xmlhacker@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id m3so738849uge for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:38:15 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=CjNW1KmvL1LB7CSt42o5Ds3frKAGXQNAX2jKy6juNjE0pv69wlMpEBjbYc1SUpW2PtgNx2tlspT489iJTsAs/ixerODHPbU7Fs9j5H1qsBhQto9uIWA8uyX9Z379HSHpLPoKClXq/EO0KJcw5+IqjC3rqdsNLh64fXCc0zeQ0WE= Received: by 10.67.101.10 with SMTP id d10mr817741ugm; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.66.217.10 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:38:14 -0600 From: "M. David Peterson" To: "=?UTF-8?Q?Asbj=C3=B8rn_Ulsberg?=" Subject: Re: Can/Does/Should the FeedValidator catch improperly escaped XHTML? Cc: "Sam Ruby" , "atom-syntax Syntax" , "Anthony Casalena" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_69609_24475165.1157063894549" References: <44F6CD20.803@intertwingly.net> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 ------=_Part_69609_24475165.1157063894549 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline KzEgLSBEZWZpbml0ZWx5IHdvdWxkIGJlIHVzZWZ1bCBhcyBhIHN1Z2dlc3Rpb24uCgpPbiA4LzMx LzA2LCBBc2Jqw7hybiBVbHNiZXJnIDxhc2Jqb3JuQHRpZ2Vyc3RhZGVuLm5vPiB3cm90ZToKPgo+ IE9uIFRodSwgMzEgQXVnIDIwMDYgMTM6NTA6NTYgKzAyMDAsIFNhbSBSdWJ5IDxydWJ5c0BpbnRl cnR3aW5nbHkubmV0Pgo+IHdyb3RlOgo+Cj4gPiBBbHNvLCB0aGVyZSBhcmUgYSBudW1iZXIgb2Yg dG9vbHMgdGhhdCBhdHRlbXB0IHRvIHByb2R1Y2Ugd2VsbC1mb3JtZWQKPiA+IFhIVE1MLCBidXQg ZG9uJ3QgZG8gc28gY29uc2lzdGVudGx5IGVub3VnaCB0byBkcm9wIHRoZSBjb250ZW50IGludG8g YW4KPiA+IEF0b20gZmVlZCBpbiBzdWNoIGEgbWFubmVyLgo+Cj4gQnV0IGlzIGl0IHBvc3NpYmxl IHRvIGNoZWNrIHRoZSB3ZWxsZm9ybWVkbmVzcyBvZiB0aGUgbWFya3VwIGluc2lkZQo+IGF0b206 Y29udGVudCBhbmQgc3VnZ2VzdCB0aGF0IHRoZSBhdXRob3JzIHVzZSAndHlwZT0ieGh0bWwiJyBp bnN0ZWFkIG9mCj4gJ3R5cGU9Imh0bWwiJyBpZiBpdCBpcyBpbmRlZWQgd2VsbGZvcm1lZCBYKEhU KU1MPyBJdCdzIGEgcmVhbCBzdHJldGNoIGluCj4gdGVybXMgb2YgaG93IGZhciB0aGUgdmFsaWRh dG9yIHNob3VsZCBnbywgYnV0IEkgY2FuIGRlZmluYXRlbHkgc2VlIGl0cwo+IHVzZWZ1bG5lc3Mu Cj4KPiAtLQo+IEFzYmrDuHJuIFVsc2JlcmcgICAgIC09fD0tICAgIGh0dHA6Ly92aXJ0dWVsdmlz LmNvbS9xdWFyay8KPiDCq0hlJ3MgYSBsb2F0aHNvbWUgb2ZmZW5zaXZlIGJydXRlLCB5ZXQgSSBj YW4ndCBsb29rIGF3YXnCuwo+CgoKCi0tIAovTTpECgpNLiBEYXZpZCBQZXRlcnNvbgpodHRwOi8v bWRhdmlkLm5hbWUgfCBodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm9yZWlsbHluZXQuY29tL3B1Yi9hdS8yMzU0Cg== ------=_Part_69609_24475165.1157063894549 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline KzEgLSBEZWZpbml0ZWx5IHdvdWxkIGJlIHVzZWZ1bCBhcyBhIHN1Z2dlc3Rpb24uPGJyPjxicj48 ZGl2PjxzcGFuIGNsYXNzPSJnbWFpbF9xdW90ZSI+T24gOC8zMS8wNiwgPGIgY2xhc3M9ImdtYWls X3NlbmRlcm5hbWUiPkFzYmrDuHJuIFVsc2Jlcmc8L2I+ICZsdDs8YSBocmVmPSJtYWlsdG86YXNi am9ybkB0aWdlcnN0YWRlbi5ubyI+YXNiam9ybkB0aWdlcnN0YWRlbi5ubzwvYT4mZ3Q7IHdyb3Rl Ogo8L3NwYW4+PGJsb2NrcXVvdGUgY2xhc3M9ImdtYWlsX3F1b3RlIiBzdHlsZT0iYm9yZGVyLWxl ZnQ6IDFweCBzb2xpZCByZ2IoMjA0LCAyMDQsIDIwNCk7IG1hcmdpbjogMHB0IDBwdCAwcHQgMC44 ZXg7IHBhZGRpbmctbGVmdDogMWV4OyI+T24gVGh1LCAzMSBBdWcgMjAwNiAxMzo1MDo1NiArMDIw MCwgU2FtIFJ1YnkgJmx0OzxhIGhyZWY9Im1haWx0bzpydWJ5c0BpbnRlcnR3aW5nbHkubmV0Ij4K cnVieXNAaW50ZXJ0d2luZ2x5Lm5ldDwvYT4mZ3Q7PGJyPndyb3RlOjxicj48YnI+Jmd0OyBBbHNv LCB0aGVyZSBhcmUgYSBudW1iZXIgb2YgdG9vbHMgdGhhdCBhdHRlbXB0IHRvIHByb2R1Y2Ugd2Vs bC1mb3JtZWQ8YnI+Jmd0OyBYSFRNTCwgYnV0IGRvbid0IGRvIHNvIGNvbnNpc3RlbnRseSBlbm91 Z2ggdG8gZHJvcCB0aGUgY29udGVudCBpbnRvIGFuPGJyPiZndDsgQXRvbSBmZWVkIGluIHN1Y2gg YSBtYW5uZXIuCjxicj48YnI+QnV0IGlzIGl0IHBvc3NpYmxlIHRvIGNoZWNrIHRoZSB3ZWxsZm9y bWVkbmVzcyBvZiB0aGUgbWFya3VwIGluc2lkZTxicj5hdG9tOmNvbnRlbnQgYW5kIHN1Z2dlc3Qg dGhhdCB0aGUgYXV0aG9ycyB1c2UgJ3R5cGU9JnF1b3Q7eGh0bWwmcXVvdDsnIGluc3RlYWQgb2Y8 YnI+J3R5cGU9JnF1b3Q7aHRtbCZxdW90OycgaWYgaXQgaXMgaW5kZWVkIHdlbGxmb3JtZWQgWChI VClNTD8gSXQncyBhIHJlYWwgc3RyZXRjaCBpbgo8YnI+dGVybXMgb2YgaG93IGZhciB0aGUgdmFs aWRhdG9yIHNob3VsZCBnbywgYnV0IEkgY2FuIGRlZmluYXRlbHkgc2VlIGl0czxicj51c2VmdWxu ZXNzLjxicj48YnI+LS08YnI+QXNiasO4cm4gVWxzYmVyZyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNw OyAtPXw9LSZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOzxhIGhyZWY9Imh0dHA6Ly92aXJ0dWVsdmlz LmNvbS9xdWFyay8iPmh0dHA6Ly92aXJ0dWVsdmlzLmNvbS9xdWFyay88L2E+PGJyPsKrSGUncyBh IGxvYXRoc29tZSBvZmZlbnNpdmUgYnJ1dGUsIHlldCBJIGNhbid0IGxvb2sgYXdhecK7Cjxicj48 L2Jsb2NrcXVvdGU+PC9kaXY+PGJyPjxiciBjbGVhcj0iYWxsIj48YnI+LS0gPGJyPi9NOkQ8YnI+ PGJyPk0uIERhdmlkIFBldGVyc29uPGJyPjxhIGhyZWY9Imh0dHA6Ly9tZGF2aWQubmFtZSI+aHR0 cDovL21kYXZpZC5uYW1lPC9hPiB8IDxhIGhyZWY9Imh0dHA6Ly93d3cub3JlaWxseW5ldC5jb20v cHViL2F1LzIzNTQiPmh0dHA6Ly93d3cub3JlaWxseW5ldC5jb20vcHViL2F1LzIzNTQKPC9hPgo= ------=_Part_69609_24475165.1157063894549--