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Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 08:59:50 +0100
From: "Thomas Broyer" <t.broyer@gmail.com>
To: Atom-Protocol <atom-protocol@imc.org>, Atom-Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: Re: categories and tagging
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[redirecting to atom-syntax]

2006/11/1, Houghton,Andrew:
>
>   concept scheme URI: http://my.scheme.net/my-vocabulary/
>   concept URI:        http://my.concept.net/my-vocabulary/13745

<category
   scheme="http://my.scheme.net/my-vocabulary/"
   term="http://my.concept.net/my-vocabulary/13745"
   label="cats"
   />

-- 
Thomas Broyer




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From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
Subject: Re: categories and tagging
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 11:34:59 +0100
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On 2 Nov 2006, at 08:59, Thomas Broyer wrote:
> [redirecting to atom-syntax]

This is also a protocol issue, because we are asking what to do with  
the information in the atom feed. [1]

> 2006/11/1, Houghton,Andrew:
>>
>>   concept scheme URI: http://my.scheme.net/my-vocabulary/
>>   concept URI:        http://my.concept.net/my-vocabulary/13745
> <category
>   scheme="http://my.scheme.net/my-vocabulary/"
>   term="http://my.concept.net/my-vocabulary/13745"
>   label="cats"
>   />

Thomas, I don't think that this is a natural reading of "term" in the  
atom syntax list.

[[
The "term" attribute is a string that identifies the category to  
which the entry or feed belongs. Category elements MUST have a "term"  
attribute.
]]

nowhere is there mentioned a IRI there, whereas just below

[[
The "scheme" attribute is an IRI that identifies a categorization  
scheme. Category elements MAY have a "scheme" attribute.
]] [2]

The scheme attribute is defined in terms of an  IRI .

To give a bit more context to what Andrew was saying, he was arguing  
that for a mapping between the SKOS [3] vocabulary and the atom  
vocabulary. SKOS is indeed very interesting. It allows one to say  
something like


<http://my.concept.net/my-vocabulary/13745> a skos:Concept;
                  skos:inScheme <http://my.scheme.net/my-vocabulary/>;
                  skos:prefLabel "cats" .

and much more.

The question remains as to how this can be well mapped to atom.

If I take one of Tim Bray's examples

<category scheme='http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/What/'
           term='Places' />

I can translate this to the AtomOwl ontology [4]

[] a :Category;
    :scheme  <http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/What/>;
    :term "Places" .

Practically, this seems to mean that one can get all the nice info  
about Places at the url

    <http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/What/Places>

And this seems to be becoming quite a common way people are setting  
things up, and also it has some continuity with what the RSS2 folks  
were doing.

[[
<category> is an optional sub-element of <item>.

It has one optional attribute, domain, a string that identifies a  
categorization taxonomy.

The value of the element is a forward-slash-separated string that  
identifies a hierarchic location in the indicated taxonomy.  
Processors may establish conventions for the interpretation of  
categories. Two examples are provided below:
]] [5]

It follows that what we have is something that can be expressed in  
RDF by saying that the
:scheme and the :term relation form a CIFP [8], ie: together they  
uniquely identify one thing, and furthermore that the identity of the  
thing is given by the concatenation of those two strings.

This seems therefore to capture behavior that is not present in skos,  
but apart from that the two should be quite complimentary. Let us see  
how we can make them more so.

What we need perhaps is some way to make clear what the url of the  
category is.
We could do this as follows:

    1. add a new attribute to identify the category (lets call it catid)
    2. Assume that if a catid is not present, and we have scheme and  
a term attribute, that the catid is formed by the concatenation of  
the scheme+term

we could then write out

<http://my.concept.net/my-vocabulary/13745> a skos:Concept;
                  skos:inScheme <http://my.scheme.net/my-vocabulary/>;
                  skos:prefLabel "cats" .

like this

<category catid="http://my.concept.net/my-vocabulary/13745"
           scheme="http://my.scheme.net/my-vocabulary/"
           term='cats' />


Now because the "term" is mandatory in atom (and not the scheme), I  
suggest that one use the skos:prefLabel for it. I know there is a  
label too, but well, it certainly makes it easier to search for  
similar categories using the SPARQL type queries I put forward in [1].

Henry


>
> -- 
> Thomas Broyer


[1] for the atom-syntax people who may not have been following this  
thread then, see
     http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/ 
folksonomies_ontologies_atom_and_the
[2] http://www.atompub.org/rfc4287.html#element.category
[3] http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-skos-core-guide/
     (though I would suggest rewriting the rules using N3, rather  
than the Jena language)
[4] https://sommer.dev.java.net/atom/
[5] http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/ 
rss#ltcategorygtSubelementOfLtitemgt
[6] http://esw.w3.org/topic/CIFP




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2006/11/2, Henry Story:
>
> On 2 Nov 2006, at 08:59, Thomas Broyer wrote:
> > [redirecting to atom-syntax]
>
> This is also a protocol issue, because we are asking what to do with
> the information in the atom feed. [1]

Not sure how atom-protocol is concerned but let's keep it in
atom-protocol too...

> > 2006/11/1, Houghton,Andrew:
> >>
> >>   concept scheme URI: http://my.scheme.net/my-vocabulary/
> >>   concept URI:        http://my.concept.net/my-vocabulary/13745
> > <category
> >   scheme="http://my.scheme.net/my-vocabulary/"
> >   term="http://my.concept.net/my-vocabulary/13745"
> >   label="cats"
> >   />
>
> Thomas, I don't think that this is a natural reading of "term" in the
> atom syntax list.

Andrew Houghton was talking about SKOS (which I don't know anything
about) and said:
[[
However, in SKOS you have a URI to the concept "cats", period.
You could map the domain to be the SKOS concept scheme's URI
and use the concepts label as the category content in Atom.  But
concatenating the SKOS concept scheme URI and the concept label
doesn't necessarily produce the URI to the concept.  For example,
in SKOS you might have the following:

 concept scheme URI: http://my.categories.net/
 concept URI for cats: http://my.categories.net/13745
 concept label for cats: cats
]]

My answer is a bare mapping of this description into an atom:category element.

> [[
> The "term" attribute is a string that identifies the category to
> which the entry or feed belongs. Category elements MUST have a "term"
> attribute.
> ]]
>
> nowhere is there mentioned a IRI there,

IRIs are not forbidden either, and Andrew's description makes me think
the "concept URI" *is* the "term".

-- 
Thomas Broyer




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From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
Subject: Re: categories and tagging
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 13:19:54 +0100
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On 2 Nov 2006, at 12:19, Thomas Broyer wrote:
>
>> [[
>> The "term" attribute is a string that identifies the category to
>> which the entry or feed belongs. Category elements MUST have a "term"
>> attribute.
>> ]]
>>
>> nowhere is there mentioned a IRI there,
>
> IRIs are not forbidden either, and Andrew's description makes me think
> the "concept URI" *is* the "term".

The question is: how does this help any of us? It may look like it is  
a "term", but what is a client meant to do with all this information?

So if Tim Bray uses

<category scheme='http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/What/'
           term='Places' />

Then what am I meant to do with this info? Since scheme is a URL I  
can presumably go there to find something. But what?

Term is not defined to be a URI, and in the above example it is not,  
and so why should I do anything with the term below?

<category
   scheme="http://my.scheme.net/my-vocabulary/"
   term="http://my.concept.net/my-vocabulary/13745"
   label="cats"
   />


What I am proposing is that we put forward some best practice to  
formalize a useful and RESTful way to publish this information, so  
that clients can use it. With APP we could do something like this: we  
could define for example that when entries are published and they  
contain categories that have a scheme that is accepted by the  
collection, then the entry will be found in the feed that is to be  
found either by appending scheme+term or in the catid location I  
mentioned previously.

So if Tim Bray posts an entry containing

<entry>
    ...
    <category scheme='http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/What/'
              term='Places' />
</entry>

and his collection manages the <http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/What/>  
scheme, as defined perhaps in the service document, (and perhaps we  
can place the list of available categories at that scheme location!)  
then his client will know that the entry will also be found in the  
<http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/What/Places> collection.

Now this would be useful for an APP publishing client, and it would  
be useful for an APP reader, because it could find some useful  
information at these various locations, and it would save us having  
to define an unending number of link relations that parallel the  
categories we have, when it is in fact clear that everybody intends  
to use scheme+term as a uri.

Henry





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From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
Subject: html content, xml:base and xml:lang
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Does xml:base and xml:lang apply to html encoded content?

There is the notion of language sensitivity and content is language  
sensitive. So it makes sense to apply it to html content. But what  
about the xml:base?

Henry






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Subject: RE: categories and tagging
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> From: owner-atom-protocol@mail.imc.org 
> [mailto:owner-atom-protocol@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Broyer
> Sent: 02 November, 2006 06:19
> To: Atom-Protocol; atom-owl@googlegroups.com; Atom-Syntax
> Subject: Re: categories and tagging
> 
> 
> 2006/11/2, Henry Story:
> >
> > On 2 Nov 2006, at 08:59, Thomas Broyer wrote:
> > > [redirecting to atom-syntax]
> >
> > This is also a protocol issue, because we are asking what 
> to do with 
> > the information in the atom feed. [1]
> 
> Not sure how atom-protocol is concerned but let's keep it in 
> atom-protocol too...

It is both a feed issue and a protocol issue because of section 7 in
the APP draft.  The APP draft puts forth category documents where I
think there are three concerns: 1) the specification of the category
element (overlap issue), 2) how could SKOS be used as a possible
alternative to category documents, 3) scalability issues with the 
specification of category documents.

1) Because category documents reuse the Atom syntax for the category
element, this becomes an overlap issue between Atom syntax and Atom
protocol.

2) It would be an ideal convergence between Atom and SKOS to be able 
to use APP to CRUD (Create, Read, Update, Delete) SKOS concept schemes 
and concepts in an APP server.  Or for that matter, other controlled 
vocabulary XML grammars such as MARC-XML and Zthes.  Providing a 
generalized solution would plug multiple communities into APP.

3) The current specification of the category document doesn't scale
since it appears to me that this is one document in the APP server.
Lets just say you are dealing with a folksonomy of tags from say
Flickr.  There may be several thousand categories, if not several
hundred thousand.  It is doubtful that an APP server could return
such a document without HTTP timing out the request.  For controlled
vocabularies such as LCSH and MeSH there are about 300,000 and 500,000
categories respectively.  Just create a simple category document and
copy and paste a single category element 500,000 times and look at the
size of the category document.  It is just not going to be returned
by any HTTP server.

As a side note, it seems to me that APP could be used to access and 
maintain controlled vocabularies in SKOS, MARC-XML, Zthes, etc.  
Basically APP provides collections of resources.  There is a direct 
analogy in SKOS where a controlled vocabulary in SKOS contains a 
collection of skos:Concept resources.

If I understand these concepts correctly, then each skos:Concept 
could be stored within an app:collection.  The same would be true 
for each skos:ConceptScheme associated with a controlled vocabulary.
The app:collection for both skos:Concept and skos:ConceptScheme 
would comprise an app:workspace.  There could be multiple 
app:collection containing skos:Concept in an app:workspace.

To draw an analogy to the DDC (Dewey Decimal Classification, another
controlled vocabulary), each app:collection containing skos:Concept 
would represent the concepts found in a single edition of the DDC.  
Each app:workspace represents a complete controlled vocabulary.  This 
means that a single APP server, app:service, could access and maintain 
multiple controlled vocabularies.  Given this mapping, it seems to me 
that APP could replace the SKOS API and may be a better alternative to 
library centric protocols such as ADL Thesaurus protocol, OpenURL, SRU
and SRU Record Update.

The current Atom category element is just another instance of an item
in an app:collection.  Thus a category document could be used to point
to the individual concepts in an app:collection rather than embedding
the category elements inside the category document.  Using this approach
any XML grammar, Atom, MARC-XML, SKOS, Zthes, etc., could be used.

> > > 2006/11/1, Houghton,Andrew:
> > >>
> > >>   concept scheme URI: http://my.scheme.net/my-vocabulary/
> > >>   concept URI:        http://my.concept.net/my-vocabulary/13745
> > > <category
> > >   scheme="http://my.scheme.net/my-vocabulary/"
> > >   term="http://my.concept.net/my-vocabulary/13745"
> > >   label="cats"
> > >   />
> >
> > Thomas, I don't think that this is a natural reading of 
> "term" in the 
> > atom syntax list.

I agree that this is not natural since term is not specified as a URI,
per my reading of the draft, and gets back to my point that you can 
smush stuff in these attributes, but that may not be the smartest thing 
to do in the long term.


BTW, generally I prefer not to cross post, this discussion is now
spread across three lists... please confine the discussion to the
Atom protocol list so people can get the complete thread rather than
bits and pieces.


Thanks, Andy.




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> Does xml:base and xml:lang apply to html encoded content?

Yes, definitely.
--=20
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From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
Subject: Re: categories and tagging
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 15:50:29 +0100
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On 2 Nov 2006, at 14:33, Thomas Broyer wrote:
> 2006/11/2, Henry Story:
>> Since scheme is a URL I can presumably go there to find something.  
>> But what?
>
> Some people also want to dereference XML Namespaces' URIs.

It works for the Atom namespace: http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom
You get a nice page that points you to the spec.

It works for all the AtomOwl terms, I used.

@prefix : <http://bblfish.net/work/atom-owl/2006-06-06/#> .

_:C a :Category;
      :term "13745";
      :label "cats"@en;
      :scheme <http://my.categories.net/> .

Each one of them is a URL and can be dereferenced, to find their  
meaning.

I find it odd, that a someone speaking from a group that prides  
itself on being RESTfull, does not want to get the added advantage  
that URLs provide. Especially in APP where we are concentrating so  
much on the HTTP protocol.

Yes. The information we have currently is useful. But if we get  
people to organise their web sites the way Tim Bray has, then we  
could write clients that use this information in much more  
interesting ways.  And we would not need an extension for every  
obviously good way of doing things.

Henry




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+1

A. Pagaltzis wrote:
>> Does xml:base and xml:lang apply to html encoded content?
> 
> Yes, definitely.




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From: Lisa Dusseault <lisa@osafoundation.org>
Subject: How to do RESTful SEARCH (was Re: Adding POST capability to atom:link)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 12:06:19 -0800
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On Oct 26, 2006, at 1:02 PM, Jan Algermissen wrote:

> If you aim to provide a REST interface, do not mimick a query  
> interface (at least not a complex one). Think of your 'asset space'  
> in terms of pre-defined, useful collections that you expose as  
> resources (feeds) and provide light weight query interfaces to them  
> that fit with GET requests.
> Think in terms of browsing and drilling-down; REST interfaces guide  
> the client into the content instead of assuming the knowledge to  
> construct
> a query does reside in the client.

This is an interesting assertion about REST.  I don't yet agree with  
it as stated though I might after further discussion and  
elaboration.  To provide a possible counter-example, I always found  
the HTTP SEARCH proposal <http://www.greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft- 
reschke-webdav-search-latest.html> to be RESTful because
	- The results of a search are returned as a set of resource identifiers
	- It doesn't necessarily break for dynamic resources as long as the  
server can handle that
	- It doesn't break the layering of representations, or use of  
connectors, or caching of resources
	- It's general -- can be used for WebDAV resources but also for any  
HTTP server, CalDAV resources or probably (with some thought) Atom  
resources

A server that instead provides light-weight query interfaces as you  
describe, or guides the client into the content, does not work with a  
client that doesn't do HTML (a CalDAV, WebDAV or possibly Atom  
authoring client); correct?

Lisa
--Apple-Mail-12--492814594
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<HTML><BODY style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; =
-khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><BR><DIV><DIV>On Oct 26, 2006, =
at 1:02 PM, Jan Algermissen wrote:</DIV><BR =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; =
-khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; =
-apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><DIV>If you aim to =
provide a REST interface, do not mimick a query interface (at least not =
a complex one). Think of your 'asset space' in terms of pre-defined, =
useful collections that you expose as resources (feeds) and provide =
light weight query interfaces to them that fit with GET =
requests.</DIV><DIV>Think in terms of browsing and drilling-down; REST =
interfaces guide the client into the content instead of assuming the =
knowledge to construct</DIV><DIV>a query does reside in the =
client.</DIV></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><DIV>This is an interesting =
assertion about REST.=A0 I don't yet agree with it as stated though I =
might after further discussion and elaboration.=A0 To provide a possible =
counter-example, I always found the HTTP SEARCH proposal &lt;<A =
href=3D"http://www.greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-reschke-webdav-search-l=
atest.html">http://www.greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-reschke-webdav-sear=
ch-latest.html</A>&gt; to be RESTful because</DIV><DIV><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</SPAN>- The =
results of a search are returned as a set of resource =
identifiers</DIV><DIV><SPAN class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</SPAN>- It doesn't necessarily break =
for dynamic resources as long as the server can handle =
that</DIV><DIV><SPAN class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</SPAN>- It doesn't break the layering of representations, or use of =
connectors, or caching of resources</DIV><DIV><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</SPAN>- It's =
general -- can be used for WebDAV resources but also for any HTTP =
server, CalDAV resources or probably (with some thought) Atom =
resources</DIV><DIV><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>A =
server that instead provides light-weight query interfaces as you =
describe, or guides the client into the content, does not work with a =
client that doesn't do HTML (a CalDAV, WebDAV or possibly Atom authoring =
client); correct?</DIV><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Lisa</DIV></BODY></HTML>=

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From: Ernest Prabhakar <prabhaka@apple.com>
Subject: Re: How to do RESTful SEARCH (was Re: Adding POST capability to atom:link)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 12:18:30 -0800
To: Lisa Dusseault <lisa@osafoundation.org>
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> A server that instead provides light-weight query interfaces as you  
> describe, or guides the client into the content, does not work with  
> a client that doesn't do HTML (a CalDAV, WebDAV or possibly Atom  
> authoring client); correct?

My understanding (for what it is worth) is that REST *requires*  
hypermedia.  Your choice of hypermedia then constrains your problem  
domain.  Once you select a domain (HTML, Atom, whatever), then to be  
RESTful it is important give clients within that domain a way to  
discover the appropriate syntax using hypermedia.

It sounds like you're asking about the protocol independent of how it  
is presented on the Web.  In that case, I think it is fine to say  
that, e.g., SEARCH *can* be used RESTfully, but I don't think it is  
*necessarily* RESTful unless we know the rest of the application.

My $.02.

-enp

On Nov 2, 2006, at 12:06 PM, Lisa Dusseault wrote:

>
> On Oct 26, 2006, at 1:02 PM, Jan Algermissen wrote:
>
>> If you aim to provide a REST interface, do not mimick a query  
>> interface (at least not a complex one). Think of your 'asset  
>> space' in terms of pre-defined, useful collections that you expose  
>> as resources (feeds) and provide light weight query interfaces to  
>> them that fit with GET requests.
>> Think in terms of browsing and drilling-down; REST interfaces  
>> guide the client into the content instead of assuming the  
>> knowledge to construct
>> a query does reside in the client.
>
> This is an interesting assertion about REST.  I don't yet agree  
> with it as stated though I might after further discussion and  
> elaboration.  To provide a possible counter-example, I always found  
> the HTTP SEARCH proposal <http://www.greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/ 
> draft-reschke-webdav-search-latest.html> to be RESTful because
> 	- The results of a search are returned as a set of resource  
> identifiers
> 	- It doesn't necessarily break for dynamic resources as long as  
> the server can handle that
> 	- It doesn't break the layering of representations, or use of  
> connectors, or caching of resources
> 	- It's general -- can be used for WebDAV resources but also for  
> any HTTP server, CalDAV resources or probably (with some thought)  
> Atom resources
>
> A server that instead provides light-weight query interfaces as you  
> describe, or guides the client into the content, does not work with  
> a client that doesn't do HTML (a CalDAV, WebDAV or possibly Atom  
> authoring client); correct?
>
> Lisa


--Apple-Mail-6--492082734
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<HTML><BODY style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; =
-khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><DIV =
style=3D"">A server that instead provides light-weight query interfaces =
as you describe, or guides the client into the content, does not work =
with a client that doesn't do HTML (a CalDAV, WebDAV or possibly Atom =
authoring client); correct?</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV>My understanding (for what it is =
worth) is that REST *requires* hypermedia.=A0 Your choice of hypermedia =
then constrains your problem domain.=A0 Once you select a domain (HTML, =
Atom, whatever), then to be RESTful it is important give clients within =
that domain a way to discover the appropriate syntax using =
hypermedia.<DIV><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>It =
sounds like you're asking about the protocol independent of how it is =
presented on the Web.=A0 In that case, I think it is fine to say that, =
e.g., SEARCH *can* be used RESTfully, but I don't think it is =
*necessarily* RESTful unless we know the rest of the =
application.</DIV><DIV><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>My=
 $.02.</DIV><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>-enp<DIV><BR><DIV><DIV>On =
Nov 2, 2006, at 12:06 PM, Lisa Dusseault wrote:</DIV><BR =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE =
type=3D"cite"><BR><DIV><DIV>On Oct 26, 2006, at 1:02 PM, Jan Algermissen =
wrote:</DIV><BR class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE =
type=3D"cite"><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: =
0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><DIV>If you aim to =
provide a REST interface, do not mimick a query interface (at least not =
a complex one). Think of your 'asset space' in terms of pre-defined, =
useful collections that you expose as resources (feeds) and provide =
light weight query interfaces to them that fit with GET =
requests.</DIV><DIV>Think in terms of browsing and drilling-down; REST =
interfaces guide the client into the content instead of assuming the =
knowledge to construct</DIV><DIV>a query does reside in the =
client.</DIV></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><DIV>This is an interesting =
assertion about REST.=A0 I don't yet agree with it as stated though I =
might after further discussion and elaboration.=A0 To provide a possible =
counter-example, I always found the HTTP SEARCH proposal &lt;<A =
href=3D"http://www.greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-reschke-webdav-search-l=
atest.html">http://www.greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-reschke-webdav-sear=
ch-latest.html</A>&gt; to be RESTful because</DIV><DIV><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</SPAN>- The =
results of a search are returned as a set of resource =
identifiers</DIV><DIV><SPAN class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</SPAN>- It doesn't necessarily break =
for dynamic resources as long as the server can handle =
that</DIV><DIV><SPAN class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</SPAN>- It doesn't break the layering of representations, or use of =
connectors, or caching of resources</DIV><DIV><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</SPAN>- It's =
general -- can be used for WebDAV resources but also for any HTTP =
server, CalDAV resources or probably (with some thought) Atom =
resources</DIV><DIV><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>A =
server that instead provides light-weight query interfaces as you =
describe, or guides the client into the content, does not work with a =
client that doesn't do HTML (a CalDAV, WebDAV or possibly Atom authoring =
client); correct?</DIV><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Lisa</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>=
<BR></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>=

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From: Lisa Dusseault <ldusseault@commerce.net>
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On Oct 18, 2006, at 1:04 AM, Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote:

>
>> My assumption: a client cannot create a media resource without also
>> creating a media link entry.  When I POST a media resource to a
>> collection, a media link entry is *always* created.
>
> Same here. Lisa what do you mean by creating a media resource  
> manually?
> If you do not use an APP service to create a media resource then it  
> does
> not fall into APP to tell how this resource will be accessible. To me
> it's like it's not even part of the collection.

I was assuming the opposite of what James assumed, so under my  
personal world-view "create a media resource manually" meant to  
create a media resource without also creating the media link entry at  
the same time.

To illustrate my disconnect more, I'll borrow James Snell's concrete  
example and show what I thought would obtain instead:

On 2006/10/17, at 4:40 PM, James M Snell wrote:

> My assumption: The relationship between a media link entry and a media
> resource is always 1-to-1.  If I want an entry to point to multiple
> media resources, then I would create one media link entry for each  
> media
> resource, then create a separate entry that points to each of the
> individually created media resources.
>
> e.g.,
>
>    entry1 --> pic1
>    entry2 --> pic2
>    entry3 --> pic3
>    entry4 --> pic1
>           --> pic2
>           --> pic3
>
> Entries 1, 2 and 3 will always point to their respective media  
> resources
> (using atom:content/@src).
>

My idea was that if I want to create an entry to point to multiple  
media resources, I might first create the entry as I edit text about  
my fabulous trip to Lisbon,

    entries:
	entry1

Then when I add pictures to the entry I'm editing, my client would  
"manually" create the media resources by posting to the media  
collection, such that no media link entry was created for each of  
them.  At the same time, the client would probably PUT to the entry  
each time to update and add the link to the pictures.

     entries:
	entry1 --> pic1
		 --> pic2
	        --> pic3
    media resources:
	pic1
	pic2
	pic3

Of course this can be done in fewer steps if the client is  
implemented to do editing offline and only upload the whole kaboodle  
when I'm done.  In that scenario, entry2 with images pic4 and pic5  
would be created with a minimum of POSTs and no PUTs, step 1 is  
POSTing the images:

     entries:
	entry1 --> pic1, pic2, pic3
     media resources:
	pic1, pic2, pic3
	NEW pic4
	NEW pic5

Step 2 is POSTing the entry with the links obtained from creating the  
images:

     entries:
	entry1 --> pic1, pic2, pic3
	NEW entry2 --> pic4, pic5
     media resources:
	pic1, pic2, pic3
	pic4
	pic5

I may be wrong about this model and James is likely to be right as  
having followed the discussion more carefully, but I don't believe  
the draft clearly leads the reader to James' model.

Lisa 
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<HTML><BODY style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; =
-khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><BR><DIV><DIV>On Oct 18, 2006, =
at 1:04 AM, Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote:</DIV><BR =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><P =
style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> =
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><P style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px =
10.0px"><FONT face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px =
Helvetica">My assumption: a client cannot create a media resource =
without also</FONT></P> <P style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px =
10.0px"><FONT face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px =
Helvetica">creating a media link entry.<SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </SPAN>When I POST a media resource =
to a</FONT></P> <P style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 10.0px"><FONT =
face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px =
Helvetica">collection, a media link entry is *always* =
created.</FONT></P> </BLOCKQUOTE><P style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px =
0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P =
style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face=3D"Helvetica" =
size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">Same here. Lisa what do you =
mean by creating a media resource manually?</FONT></P> <P style=3D"margin:=
 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" =
style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">If you do not use an APP service to =
create a media resource then it does</FONT></P> <P style=3D"margin: =
0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" =
style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">not fall into APP to tell how this =
resource will be accessible. To me</FONT></P> <P style=3D"margin: 0.0px =
0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: =
12.0px Helvetica">it's like it's not even part of the =
collection.</FONT></P> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I was assuming the opposite =
of what James assumed, so under my personal world-view "create a media =
resource manually" meant to create a media resource without also =
creating the media link entry at the same time.</DIV><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>To illustrate my disconnect =
more, I'll borrow James Snell's concrete example and show what I thought =
would obtain instead:</DIV><BR><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">On =
2006/10/17, at 4:40 PM, James M Snell wrote:</DIV><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><DIV =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">My assumption: The relationship between a media link =
entry and a media</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">resource is always 1-to-1.=A0 If =
I want an entry to point to multiple</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">media =
resources, then I would create one media link entry for each =
media</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">resource, then create a separate =
entry that points to each of the</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">individually =
created media resources.</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: =
14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">e.g.,</DIV><DIV =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">=A0=A0 =
entry1 --&gt; pic1</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">=A0=A0 entry2 --&gt; =
pic2</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">=A0=A0 entry3 --&gt; =
pic3</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">=A0=A0 entry4 --&gt; =
pic1</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --&gt; =
pic2</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --&gt; =
pic3</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">Entries 1, 2 and 3 will always point to their =
respective media resources</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">(using =
atom:content/@src).</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV>My idea =
was that if I want to create an entry to point to multiple media =
resources, I might first create the entry as I edit text about my =
fabulous trip to Lisbon,=A0</DIV><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>=A0 =
=A0entries:</DIV><DIV><SPAN class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</SPAN>entry1</DIV><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Then when I add pictures to =
the entry I'm editing, my client would "manually" create the media =
resources by posting to the media collection, such that no media link =
entry was created for each of them.=A0 At the same time, the client =
would probably PUT to the entry each time to update and add the link to =
the pictures.</DIV><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>=A0=A0 =
=A0entries:</DIV><DIV><SPAN class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</SPAN>entry1 --&gt; =
pic1</DIV><DIV><SPAN class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
	</SPAN>=A0--&gt; pic2</DIV><DIV><SPAN class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</SPAN>=A0 =A0 =A0=A0 =A0--&gt; =
pic3</DIV><DIV>=A0 =A0media resources:</DIV><DIV><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</SPAN>pic1</DIV><DIV><SPAN class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</SPAN>pic2</DIV><DIV><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</SPAN>pic3</DIV><DIV><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Of =
course this can be done in fewer steps if the client is implemented to =
do editing offline and only upload the whole kaboodle when I'm done.=A0 =
In that scenario, entry2 with images pic4 and pic5 would be created with =
a minimum of POSTs and no PUTs, step 1 is POSTing the =
images:</DIV><DIV><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>=A0=A0 =
=A0entries:=A0</DIV><DIV><SPAN class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</SPAN>entry1 --&gt; pic1, pic2, =
pic3</DIV><DIV>=A0=A0 =A0media resources:</DIV><DIV><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</SPAN>pic1, =
pic2, pic3</DIV><DIV><SPAN class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</SPAN>NEW pic4</DIV><DIV><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</SPAN>NEW =
pic5</DIV><DIV><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Step 2 =
is POSTing the entry with the links obtained from creating the =
images:</DIV><DIV><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>=A0=A0 =
=A0entries:=A0</DIV><DIV><SPAN class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</SPAN>entry1 --&gt; pic1, pic2, =
pic3</DIV><DIV><SPAN class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</SPAN>NEW entry2 --&gt; pic4, pic5</DIV><DIV>=A0=A0 =A0media =
resources:</DIV><DIV><SPAN class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</SPAN>pic1, pic2, pic3</DIV><DIV><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</SPAN>pic4</DIV><DIV><SPAN class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</SPAN>pic5</DIV><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I may be wrong about this =
model and James is likely to be right as having followed the discussion =
more carefully, but I don't believe the draft clearly leads the reader =
to James' model.=A0=A0</DIV><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Lisa=A0</DIV></BODY></HTML>=

--Apple-Mail-13--491487969--




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From: Jan Algermissen <algermissen1971@mac.com>
Subject: Re: How to do RESTful SEARCH (was Re: Adding POST capability to atom:link)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 22:31:44 +0100
To: Lisa Dusseault <lisa@osafoundation.org>
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Lisa,

first, I think I misread Mark's point when I quoted his blog entry:

"The Web doesn=92t do generic query"
<http://www.markbaker.ca/blog/2006/08/09/sparql-useful-but-not-a-game-=20
changer/>

He does talk about hiding the actual query by merely passing in =20
parameters; he does not talk about dividing the query space into =20
subsets. Sorry about that.



On Nov 2, 2006, at 9:06 PM, Lisa Dusseault wrote:

>
> On Oct 26, 2006, at 1:02 PM, Jan Algermissen wrote:
>
>> If you aim to provide a REST interface, do not mimick a query =20
>> interface (at least not a complex one). Think of your 'asset =20
>> space' in terms of pre-defined, useful collections that you expose =20
>> as resources (feeds) and provide light weight query interfaces to =20
>> them that fit with GET requests.
>> Think in terms of browsing and drilling-down; REST interfaces =20
>> guide the client into the content instead of assuming the =20
>> knowledge to construct
>> a query does reside in the client.
>
> This is an interesting assertion about REST.  I don't yet agree =20
> with it as stated though I might after further discussion and =20
> elaboration.  To provide a possible counter-example, I always found =20
> the HTTP SEARCH proposal <http://www.greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/=20
> draft-reschke-webdav-search-latest.html> to be RESTful

I did not mean to say that using very many parameters was breaking =20
REST, I only meant to say that dividing the space is propably =20
decreasing the level of coupling as the client needs to know fewer =20
parameters. Of course it needs to OTH understand the meaning of the =20
subsets but it might already do that anyway. Hard to evaluate in the =20
absence of the domain context.

Maybe think about a resource representing all items of 'last week' as =20
opposed to providing start-date and end-date parameters to narrow =20
down the result set to 'last week'.

> because
> 	- The results of a search are returned as a set of resource =20
> identifiers
> 	- It doesn't necessarily break for dynamic resources as long as =20
> the server can handle that
> 	- It doesn't break the layering of representations, or use of =20
> connectors, or caching of resources
> 	- It's general -- can be used for WebDAV resources but also for =20
> any HTTP server, CalDAV resources or probably (with some thought) =20
> Atom resources
>
> A server that instead provides light-weight query interfaces as you =20
> describe, or guides the client into the content, does not work with =20
> a client that doesn't do HTML (a CalDAV, WebDAV or possibly Atom =20
> authoring client); correct?

I wouldn't say so; the question of MIME type is orthogonal to the =20
question of parameters vs. collections. Or am I misreading you?

Jan


>
> Lisa





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2006/11/2, Henry Story:
>
> On 2 Nov 2006, at 12:19, Thomas Broyer wrote:
> >
> >> [[
> >> The "term" attribute is a string that identifies the category to
> >> which the entry or feed belongs. Category elements MUST have a "term"
> >> attribute.
> >> ]]
> >>
> >> nowhere is there mentioned a IRI there,
> >
> > IRIs are not forbidden either, and Andrew's description makes me think
> > the "concept URI" *is* the "term".
>
> The question is: how does this help any of us? It may look like it is
> a "term", but what is a client meant to do with all this information?

Nothing.
A client is not meant to do anything with atom:category elements other
than for categorizing the entry or feed.

> So if Tim Bray uses
>
> <category scheme='http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/What/'
>            term='Places' />
>
> Then what am I meant to do with this info?

You can tell the reader that the entry is in the "Places" category,
you can provide a "show other entries within this category" feature,
you can group entries by their category (in a treeview: root nodes are
the list of schemes, their child nodes are the list of terms,
presented using the provided @label; if there are different @label
used, you can default to the latest and provide a tooltip or other
contextual info such as "a.k.a. Locations, Where"), etc.

> Since scheme is a URL I can presumably go there to find something. But what?

Some people also want to dereference XML Namespaces' URIs.

> Term is not defined to be a URI, and in the above example it is not,
> and so why should I do anything with the term below?
>
> <category
>    scheme="http://my.scheme.net/my-vocabulary/"
>    term="http://my.concept.net/my-vocabulary/13745"
>    label="cats"
>    />

There's no reason you would do anything with it either.

> What I am proposing is that we put forward some best practice to
> formalize a useful and RESTful way to publish this information, so
> that clients can use it. With APP we could do something like this: we
> could define for example that when entries are published and they
> contain categories that have a scheme that is accepted by the
> collection, then the entry will be found in the feed that is to be
> found either by appending scheme+term or in the catid location I
> mentioned previously.

-1
But you can still do it yourself in your own implementation,
eventually with the use of an f:feature to communicate the feature to
clients.

> So if Tim Bray posts an entry containing
>
> <entry>
>     ...
>     <category scheme='http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/What/'
>               term='Places' />
> </entry>
>
> and his collection manages the <http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/What/>
> scheme, as defined perhaps in the service document, (and perhaps we
> can place the list of available categories at that scheme location!)
> then his client will know that the entry will also be found in the
> <http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/What/Places> collection.

I don't see how this is useful, but you might have good reasons.

> Now this would be useful for an APP publishing client, and it would
> be useful for an APP reader, because it could find some useful
> information at these various locations,

I understand the need to provide a "category URI" in some scenarios
but that should be an extension to the atom:category element or a
"mapping mechanism" communicated by a feed-level or entry-level
extension, but please no "global assumption".

> and it would save us having
> to define an unending number of link relations that parallel the
> categories we have, when it is in fact clear that everybody intends
> to use scheme+term as a uri.

Do you mean scheme+term, scheme+"/"+term or scheme+"#"+term?
or maybe scheme+"/"+term+".atom"? or scheme+"/tags/"+term?

-- 
Thomas Broyer




From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Nov 03 01:33:52 2006
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From: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de>
To: Atom Publishing Protocol <atom-protocol@imc.org>,
        Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: Re: categories and tagging
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* Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net> [2006-11-02 16:55]:
> The question is: how does this help any of us? It may look like
> it is a "term", but what is a client meant to do with all this
> information?

Simple: when the scheme and term of two different entries are
identical, then you have confidence that they refer to the same
concept. When the scheme URI is absent, the term is ambiguous.

That=E2=80=99s what scheme and term mean, and that=E2=80=99s all that the=
y mean.

If you want to use a dereferencable protocol scheme for your
category=E2=80=99s scheme URI, and want to run a service providing
resources at the given URI, that=E2=80=99s fine, and more power to you.
But nothing like that is mandated, much less is any approach for
deriving a dereferencable URI for a single term.

Regards,
--=20
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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Robert,

It's been a few weeks since this came up.  I was wondering if you'd be
able to give some kind of estimate on when you might have a chance to
document what you had in mind for mozilla/firefox/thunderbird.  No
pressure, of course, I just don't want this issue to stall out for lack
of discussion.

- James

James M Snell wrote:
> Yeah, for now I'm going to keep this bidi code off in an out of the way
> corner in the Abdera CVS until there's any more movement.  Now that I've
> addressed a short term need I've had on my list for a while, I'll be
> holding off at least a few weeks to see what Sayre comes up with before
> deciding whether to update the I-D and I'll hold off making any further
> updates to Abdera until after the WG makes a clear decision.
> 
> - James
> 
> James Holderness wrote:
>> Well I'm glad somebody pointed it out because I certainly missed it.
>> Anyway, for now I'm just checking for an unprefixed dir attribute. If
>> and when RFC 4287 is ever updated I'll ammend my code accordingly.
>>
>> Regards
>> James
>>
>> James M Snell wrote:
>>> I know there's no such thing :-)... which is precisely why the code I
>>> implemented is temporary and experimental :-).
>>>
>>> - James
>>>
>>> Anne van Kesteren wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:32:46 +0200, James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>  2. Look for the xhtml:dir attribute
>>>> There's no such thing. (Except perhaps with this new XHTML
>>>> Modularization madness, but that's best ignored.)
>>
> 




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From: "Mark Baker" <distobj@acm.org>
To: "Lisa Dusseault" <lisa@osafoundation.org>
Subject: Re: How to do RESTful SEARCH (was Re: Adding POST capability to atom:link)
Cc: "Jan Algermissen" <algermissen1971@mac.com>, Atom <atom-syntax@imc.org>
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On 11/2/06, Lisa Dusseault <lisa@osafoundation.org> wrote:
> This is an interesting assertion about REST.  I don't yet agree with it as
> stated though I might after further discussion and elaboration.  To provide
> a possible counter-example, I always found the HTTP SEARCH proposal
> <http://www.greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-reschke-webdav-search-latest.html>
> to be RESTful because
>  - The results of a search are returned as a set of resource identifiers

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that Lisa, but AFAICT, the
results of a SEARCH request does not have an identifier.

A RESTful solution would be publish a form that could be used by a
client to construct a URI that would return the search results (with
GET, of course).

Cheers,

Mark.




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From: Robert Sayre <rsayre@mozilla.com>
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James M Snell wrote:
> Robert,
>
> It's been a few weeks since this came up.  I was wondering if you'd be
> able to give some kind of estimate on when you might have a chance to
> document what you had in mind for mozilla/firefox/thunderbird.  No
> pressure, of course, I just don't want this issue to stall out for lack
> of discussion.
>   

I still have something coming. The IETF meeting means the secretariat 
won't process a draft right now.


-Rob




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Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 13:32:32 -0800
From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
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Cool thx. I'll watch for it following the IETF meeting.

- James

Robert Sayre wrote:
> James M Snell wrote:
>> Robert,
>>
>> It's been a few weeks since this came up.  I was wondering if you'd be
>> able to give some kind of estimate on when you might have a chance to
>> document what you had in mind for mozilla/firefox/thunderbird.  No
>> pressure, of course, I just don't want this issue to stall out for lack
>> of discussion.
>>   
> 
> I still have something coming. The IETF meeting means the secretariat
> won't process a draft right now.
> 
> 
> -Rob
> 




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Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 13:37:37 -0800
From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
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Mark,

I cannot recall if I've asked you this in the past but... if I have a
set of paged/archive feed documents all of which make up a single
logical feed, do the atom:id's for each feed document have be the same?
 If not, how do I determine the atom:id of the logical feed?

- James




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Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 14:19:06 -0800
To: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>, Robert Sayre <rsayre@mozilla.com>
From: Paul Hoffman <phoffman@imc.org>
Subject: Re: [atom-syntax] Atom bidi
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At 1:32 PM -0800 11/3/06, James M Snell wrote:
>Cool thx. I'll watch for it following the IETF meeting.

Actually, the window opens again the first day of the meeting (Monday).




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Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 00:47:23 -0500
From: "Judy Piper" <judy.piper@gmail.com>
To: "James M Snell" <jasnell@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [atom-syntax] [RFC 4685] uri in xml namespace
Cc: "Nicolas Krebs" <nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com>, atom-syntax@imc.org
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------=_Part_6083_5542630.1162705643103
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I was expecting a Namespace document that explains the namespace URI itself
and the relationship between the spec and the URI.  Am I wrong to expect
this behavior?

Thanks,
Judy-
On 10/17/06, James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Done!
>
> - James
>
>
> Nicolas Krebs wrote:
> > The RFC 4685 define an xml namespace with
> > "http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0".
> > An HTTP GET http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0 answer
> > HTTP/1.x 302 Found
> > Location:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-12.txt
> >
> > which redirect to
> >
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-12.txt
> >
> > which answer
> > HTTP/1.x 404 Not Found
> >
> > Please fix this issue and make http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0
> > redirecting to http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4685.txt or
> > http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4685 or http://www.rfc-editor.org/*4685*.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

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I was expecting a Namespace document that explains the namespace URI itself and the relationship between the spec and the URI.&nbsp; Am I wrong to expect this behavior?<br><br>Thanks,<br>Judy-<br><div><span class="gmail_quote">
On 10/17/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">James M Snell</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:jasnell@gmail.com">jasnell@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>Done!<br><br>- James<br><br><br>Nicolas Krebs wrote:<br>&gt; The RFC 4685 define an xml namespace with<br>&gt; &quot;<a href="http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0">http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0</a>&quot;.<br>
&gt; An HTTP GET <a href="http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0">http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0</a> answer<br>&gt; HTTP/1.x 302 Found<br>&gt; Location: <a href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-12.txt">
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-12.txt</a><br>&gt;<br>&gt; which redirect to<br>&gt; <a href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-12.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-thread-12.txt
</a><br>&gt;<br>&gt; which answer<br>&gt; HTTP/1.x 404 Not Found<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Please fix this issue and make <a href="http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0">http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0</a><br>&gt; redirecting to 
<a href="http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4685.txt">http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4685.txt</a> or<br>&gt; <a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4685">http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4685</a> or <a href="http://www.rfc-editor.org/*4685*">
http://www.rfc-editor.org/*4685*</a>.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br><br></blockquote></div><br>

------=_Part_6083_5542630.1162705643103--




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I'd like something that would define a set of feeds, rather than just a link
to one single feed. 
is there anywhere in the standard mentioned about feed indices( i.e.
collection of feeds).??
Ta
--
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http://hack-space.biz/
There are no stupid questions, but there are stupid answers.




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From: Nicolas Krebs <nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com>
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Subject: Re: [atom-syntax] [RFC 4685] uri in xml namespace
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>Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 00:47:23 -0500
>From: "Judy Piper" <judy.piper@gmail.com>
>To: "James M Snell" <jasnell@gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [atom-syntax] [RFC 4685] uri in xml namespace
>CC: "Nicolas Krebs" <nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com>, atom-syntax@imc.org

( http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0 redirecting to 
http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4685.txt )

>I was expecting a Namespace document that explains the namespace URI itself
>and the relationship between the spec and the URI.  Am I wrong to expect
>this behavior?

Such in http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom ? 





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Yup.

On 11/5/06, Nicolas Krebs <nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com> wrote:
>
>
> >Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 00:47:23 -0500
> >From: "Judy Piper" <judy.piper@gmail.com>
> >To: "James M Snell" <jasnell@gmail.com>
> >Subject: Re: [atom-syntax] [RFC 4685] uri in xml namespace
> >CC: "Nicolas Krebs" <nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com>,
> atom-syntax@imc.org
>
> ( http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0 redirecting to
> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4685.txt )
>
> >I was expecting a Namespace document that explains the namespace URI
> itself
> >and the relationship between the spec and the URI.  Am I wrong to expect
> >this behavior?
>
> Such in http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom ?
>
>
>

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Yup.&nbsp; <br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 11/5/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Nicolas Krebs</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com">nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>&gt;Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 00:47:23 -0500<br>&gt;From: &quot;Judy Piper&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:judy.piper@gmail.com">judy.piper@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt;To: &quot;James M Snell&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:jasnell@gmail.com">
jasnell@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt;Subject: Re: [atom-syntax] [RFC 4685] uri in xml namespace<br>&gt;CC: &quot;Nicolas Krebs&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com">nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com</a>&gt;, 
<a href="mailto:atom-syntax@imc.org">atom-syntax@imc.org</a><br><br>( <a href="http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0">http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0</a> redirecting to<br><a href="http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4685.txt">
http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4685.txt</a> )<br><br>&gt;I was expecting a Namespace document that explains the namespace URI itself<br>&gt;and the relationship between the spec and the URI.&nbsp;&nbsp;Am I wrong to expect<br>&gt;this behavior?
<br><br>Such in <a href="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom">http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom</a> ?<br><br><br></blockquote></div><br>

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You can accomplish this using another Feed. e.g.,

<feed>
  ...
  <entry>
    ...
    <link type="application/atom+xml" href="feed1.xml" />
    ...
  </entry>
  <entry>
    ...
    <link type="application/atom+xml" href="feed2.xml" />
    ...
  </entry>
  ...
</feed>

- James

Greger wrote:
> 
> 
> I'd like something that would define a set of feeds, rather than just a link
> to one single feed. 
> is there anywhere in the standard mentioned about feed indices( i.e.
> collection of feeds).??
> Ta
> --
> http://www.gregerhaga.net/
> http://hack-space.biz/
> There are no stupid questions, but there are stupid answers.
> 
> 




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From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
Subject: searches - was Re: Adding POST capability to atom:link
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 17:57:45 +0100
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One very powerful solution would be to use a "sparql" link as  
described in PaceSparqlLink [1]
This would point to a service end point such as the following:

http://roller.blogdns.net:2020/snorql/

to which a simple SPARQL POST or GET request can be made. The above  
url points to the html view of the form which you can query and find  
out about all the entries on the attached roller server at

http://roller.blogdns.net:8080/roller/

Henry


[1] http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceSparqlLink

On 26 Oct 2006, at 18:24, Gopalan Sri wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am trying to use opensearch to do some paging of my search  
> results and
> I have a question regard adding POST capabilities to the atom:link
> construct.
>
> The information I want to pass back to the server is complex in nature
> and makes sense to capture in XML.  My question is whether or not  
> there
> are any thoughts or plans to extend the atom:link contruct to support
> something like this:
>
> <link rel="next" href="http://example.com/" type="application/atom 
> +xml"
> action="POST">
>     <parameter name="q">
>         <xxx:Payload/>
>     </parameter>
>     <parameter name="blah" value="blah"/>
> </link>
>
> Thanks.
> Sri Gopalan
> Booz Allen Hamilton
> Office: Allen 147
> Tel: 703.377.1404
> Mobile: 703.395.4057




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On Nov 8, 2006, at 5:57 PM, Henry Story wrote:

> http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceSparqlLink

Are you really suggesting to use POST for querying (as the Pace says)?

You wouldn't even be able to send someone a link to the [feed that  
is] the
query result or page through the result etc.

??

Jan




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From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
Subject: Re: searches - was Re: Adding POST capability to atom:link
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 18:40:21 +0000
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On 8 Nov 2006, at 19:49, Jan Algermissen wrote:
> On Nov 8, 2006, at 5:57 PM, Henry Story wrote:
>
>> http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceSparqlLink
>
> Are you really suggesting to use POST for querying (as the Pace says)?

Sorry, it was my misreading of SPARQL protocol to think that POST was  
necessary. You can also use GET, though that would end up creating  
very large URLs. Not sure if there is a way one could shorten SPARQL  
queries. Perhaps work for a SPARQL extension.

I'll change the Pace.

Henry

> You wouldn't even be able to send someone a link to the [feed that  
> is] the
> query result or page through the result etc.
>
> ??
>
> Jan




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To: "Judy Piper" <judy.piper@gmail.com>, "James M Snell" <jasnell@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [atom-syntax] [RFC 4685] uri in xml namespace
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?= <asbjorn@tigerstaden.no>
Cc: "Nicolas Krebs" <nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com>, atom-syntax@imc.org
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On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 06:47:23 +0100, Judy Piper <judy.piper@gmail.com> =20
wrote:

> I was expecting a Namespace document that explains the namespace URI =20
> itself and the relationship between the spec and the URI.  Am I wrong t=
o
> expect this behavior?

What is to be expected when resolving a namespace URI is undefined, but a=
 =20
common solution is to have a document explaining what the URI means and =20
how the vocabulary residing in that namespace can be used. In other words=
; =20
just as you say. Redirecting directly to the specification works, but an =
=20
informative and perhaps more human friendly document inbetween would =20
indeed be nice.

A good example is the XHTML namespace URI:

   <http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml>

--=20
Asbj=F8rn Ulsberg     -=3D|=3D-    http://virtuelvis.com/quark/
=ABHe's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away=BB




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Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 17:08:34 -0800
From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
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To: Judy Piper <judy.piper@gmail.com>
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        Nicolas Krebs <nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com>, atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: [atom-syntax] [RFC 4685] uri in xml namespace
References: <mnet4.1161088963.29812.nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com>	 <4534EFA1.80906@gmail.com>	 <b6cb1ea70611042147j30275753lee5818b4bae8e9c1@mail.gmail.com>	 <op.tirtqucx16f2qb@quark> <b6cb1ea70611091704lb8eeed1n48518b891f359772@mail.gmail.com>
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I've updated the purl registration so that it redirects to the RFC.  I
can, alternatively, have it direct to a summary page like the XHTML
namespace does if that's what folks would prefer.

- James

Judy Piper wrote:
> I think that has been understood; I believe that James will be
> addressing this namespace issue.
> 
> Judy-
> [snip]




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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 20:16:55 -0500
From: "Judy Piper" <judy.piper@gmail.com>
To: "James M Snell" <jasnell@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [atom-syntax] [RFC 4685] uri in xml namespace
Cc: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?=" <asbjorn@tigerstaden.no>,
        "Nicolas Krebs" <nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com>, atom-syntax@imc.org
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James wrote:
[snip]
have it direct to a summary page like the XHTML
[snip]
+1
Judy-

namespace
On 11/9/06, James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I've updated the purl registration so that it redirects to the RFC.  I
> can, alternatively, have it direct to a summary page like the XHTML
> namespace does if that's what folks would prefer.
>
> - James
>
> Judy Piper wrote:
> > I think that has been understood; I believe that James will be
> > addressing this namespace issue.
> >
> > Judy-
> > [snip]
>

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James wrote:<br>[snip]<br>have it direct to a summary page like the XHTML<br>[snip]<br>+1 <br>Judy-<br><br>namespace<br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 11/9/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">James M Snell</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:jasnell@gmail.com">
jasnell@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">I've updated the purl registration so that it redirects to the RFC.&nbsp;&nbsp;I
<br>can, alternatively, have it direct to a summary page like the XHTML<br>namespace does if that's what folks would prefer.<br><br>- James<br><br>Judy Piper wrote:<br>&gt; I think that has been understood; I believe that James will be
<br>&gt; addressing this namespace issue.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Judy-<br>&gt; [snip]<br></blockquote></div><br>

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From: "Judy Piper" <judy.piper@gmail.com>
To: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Ulsberg?=" <asbjorn@tigerstaden.no>
Subject: Re: [atom-syntax] [RFC 4685] uri in xml namespace
Cc: "James M Snell" <jasnell@gmail.com>,
        "Nicolas Krebs" <nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com>, atom-syntax@imc.org
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I think that has been understood; I believe that James will be addressing
this namespace issue.

Judy-

On 11/9/06, Asbj=F8rn Ulsberg <asbjorn@tigerstaden.no> wrote:
>
> On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 06:47:23 +0100, Judy Piper <judy.piper@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I was expecting a Namespace document that explains the namespace URI
> > itself and the relationship between the spec and the URI.  Am I wrong t=
o
> > expect this behavior?
>
> What is to be expected when resolving a namespace URI is undefined, but a
> common solution is to have a document explaining what the URI means and
> how the vocabulary residing in that namespace can be used. In other words=
;
> just as you say. Redirecting directly to the specification works, but an
> informative and perhaps more human friendly document inbetween would
> indeed be nice.
>
> A good example is the XHTML namespace URI:
>
>    <http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml>
>
> --
> Asbj=F8rn Ulsberg     -=3D|=3D-    http://virtuelvis.com/quark/
> =ABHe's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away=BB
>

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I think that has been understood; I believe that James will be addressing t=
his namespace issue.<br><br>Judy-<br><br><div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">O=
n 11/9/06, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Asbj=F8rn Ulsberg</b> &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:asbjorn@tigerstaden.no">
asbjorn@tigerstaden.no</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt =
0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 06:47:23 +0100, Judy Piper &=
lt;
<a href=3D"mailto:judy.piper@gmail.com">judy.piper@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>wro=
te:<br><br>&gt; I was expecting a Namespace document that explains the name=
space URI<br>&gt; itself and the relationship between the spec and the URI.=
&nbsp;&nbsp;Am I wrong to
<br>&gt; expect this behavior?<br><br>What is to be expected when resolving=
 a namespace URI is undefined, but a<br>common solution is to have a docume=
nt explaining what the URI means and<br>how the vocabulary residing in that=
 namespace can be used. In other words;
<br>just as you say. Redirecting directly to the specification works, but a=
n<br>informative and perhaps more human friendly document inbetween would<b=
r>indeed be nice.<br><br>A good example is the XHTML namespace URI:<br>
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">http://www.w3=
.org/1999/xhtml</a>&gt;<br><br>--<br>Asbj=F8rn Ulsberg&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; -=3D|=3D-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href=3D"http://virtuelvis.com/quark=
/">http://virtuelvis.com/quark/</a><br>=ABHe's a loathsome offensive brute,=
 yet I can't look away=BB
<br></blockquote></div><br>

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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 16:01:07 +0900
To: Asbj=?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCj1MbKEI=?=n Ulsberg <asbjorn@tigerstaden.no>,
        "Judy Piper" <judy.piper@gmail.com>,
        "James M Snell" <jasnell@gmail.com>
From: Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Subject: Re: [atom-syntax] [RFC 4685] uri in xml namespace
Cc: "Nicolas Krebs" <nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com>, atom-syntax@imc.org
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At 07:50 06/11/10, Asbj=1B$B=8FS=1B(Bn Ulsberg wrote:

>A good example is the XHTML namespace URI:
>
>   <http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml>

Yes, this is a good example in general, but misses one important
point. It should say explicitly that the namespace URI is
http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml. Why? Because somebody by chance
may arrive at this page from another URI, such as
http://Www.w3.org/1999/xhtml (Opera and Firefox convert this to
http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml, probably due to the Latin/Cyrillic
confusion/scare a while ago, but IE doesn't).

Regards,    Martin.



#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp =
   =20




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Subject: Re: [atom-syntax] [RFC 4685] uri in xml namespace
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On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 08:01:07 +0100, Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp=
> =20
wrote:

>> A good example is the XHTML namespace URI:
>>
>>   <http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml>
>
> Yes, this is a good example in general, but misses one important
> point. It should say explicitly that the namespace URI is
> http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml.

I agree. Let's hope James takes this into consideration when he creates =20
the HTML document for the Atom namespace URI.

--=20
Asbj=F8rn Ulsberg     -=3D|=3D-    http://virtuelvis.com/quark/
=ABHe's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away=BB




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Subject: Re: [atom-syntax] [RFC 4685] uri in xml namespace
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On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 02:08:34 +0100, James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> =20
wrote:

> I've updated the purl registration so that it redirects to the RFC.

Great.

> I can, alternatively, have it direct to a summary page like the XHTML
> namespace does if that's what folks would prefer.

Even better. +1.

--=20
Asbj=F8rn Ulsberg     -=3D|=3D-    http://virtuelvis.com/quark/
=ABHe's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away=BB




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From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
Subject: Re: Pseudo-Last Call on draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-07
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 13:25:43 -0800
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I haven't had any feedback on the possible change below. Does anyone  
want to see things move in this direction?

Cheers,


On 2006/10/11, at 10:06 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote:

>> 1. I think your document might need to address what's supposed to  
>> happen
>> if duplicate items are discovered when trolling through the paged  
>> info.
>> Newer replaces older? (That makes the most sense to me) Although I  
>> guess
>> the argument might be, "what's an 'item'?".
>
> I started going down that road in early drafts, but backed away  
> from it when it started looking like a rat hole. :)
>
> To allow FH to normatively specify what to do with duplicates, you  
> have to figure out the ordering of entries, so you can determine  
> their relative precedence. Since Atom doesn't have any explicit  
> ordering, FH would need to either assume ordering semantics  
> implicitly, or doing something explicit in an extension.
>
> In the paged case, this seems like a tall order, because it's  
> totally context-dependent; e.g., if you have OpenSearch or GData  
> results, or orders for launching the missiles that are paged, and  
> you happen to get a duplicate, the right thing to do may be very  
> different.
>
> In the archived case, it's a little easier, because we're already  
> inferring that the pages closes to current do have precedence, so  
> we just need to figure out what to do about duplicates in the same  
> feed document.
>
> I could see making the implied page-by-page precedence for Archived  
> feeds in section 4 explicit. It would also be easy to add text  
> saying that relative precedence in the same feed document can be  
> determined by any extension that defines ordering, defaulting to  
> the update time of the entries (or document order, topmost first? I  
> think this is what most people do, but it seems contrary to the  
> spirit of the Atom spec). I'm not crazy about actually defining an  
> ordering extension (is one in progress? James?) in FH.


--
Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/




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There is the Feed Rank extension which can be used to specify the order
for entries but that's still a work in progress and has been a very low
priority for me.

IMHO, you should base this entirely on atom:id and atom:updated.  If you
find another entry with a duplicate atom:id and a newer atom:updated, it
takes precedence.  If you find an entry with a duplicate atom:id and an
older or equal atom:updated, the one you currently have takes
precedence.  If you want more granularity, look for app:edited elements.

- James

Mark Nottingham wrote:
> 
> I haven't had any feedback on the possible change below. Does anyone
> want to see things move in this direction?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 
> On 2006/10/11, at 10:06 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote:
> 
>>> 1. I think your document might need to address what's supposed to happen
>>> if duplicate items are discovered when trolling through the paged info.
>>> Newer replaces older? (That makes the most sense to me) Although I guess
>>> the argument might be, "what's an 'item'?".
>>
>> I started going down that road in early drafts, but backed away from
>> it when it started looking like a rat hole. :)
>>
>> To allow FH to normatively specify what to do with duplicates, you
>> have to figure out the ordering of entries, so you can determine their
>> relative precedence. Since Atom doesn't have any explicit ordering, FH
>> would need to either assume ordering semantics implicitly, or doing
>> something explicit in an extension.
>>
>> In the paged case, this seems like a tall order, because it's totally
>> context-dependent; e.g., if you have OpenSearch or GData results, or
>> orders for launching the missiles that are paged, and you happen to
>> get a duplicate, the right thing to do may be very different.
>>
>> In the archived case, it's a little easier, because we're already
>> inferring that the pages closes to current do have precedence, so we
>> just need to figure out what to do about duplicates in the same feed
>> document.
>>
>> I could see making the implied page-by-page precedence for Archived
>> feeds in section 4 explicit. It would also be easy to add text saying
>> that relative precedence in the same feed document can be determined
>> by any extension that defines ordering, defaulting to the update time
>> of the entries (or document order, topmost first? I think this is what
>> most people do, but it seems contrary to the spirit of the Atom spec).
>> I'm not crazy about actually defining an ordering extension (is one in
>> progress? James?) in FH.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/
> 
> 




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Hi,

I am in the San Francisco/Bay Area region for the coming month. Would  
anyone in the area be up for a group meeting?

Henry

Home page: http://bblfish.net/
Sun Blog: http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/
Foaf name: http://bblfish.net/people/henry/card#me




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From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
Subject: Re: Pseudo-Last Call on draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-07
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 21:23:35 -0800
To: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
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How about adding:

To "complete feeds":
---8<---
This specification does not address duplicate entries or entry  
ordering in complete feeds.
--->8---

To "paged feeds":
---8<---
Note that this specification does not address duplicate entries or  
entry ordering in paged feeds.
--->8---

To "archived feeds":
---8<---
If duplicate entries are present in an archived feed, the most  
recently updated entry SHOULD replace all earlier entries. If  
duplicate entries have the same update time, and they are obtained by  
different feed documents, the entry sourced from the most recently  
updated feed document SHOULD replace all other duplicates of that entry.

In Atom archived feeds, two entries are duplicates if they have the  
same atom:id element. The update time of an entry is determined by  
its atom:updated element, and likewise the update time of a feed  
document is determined by its feed-level atom:updated element.

In RSS2 archived feeds, two entries are duplicates if they have the  
same guid element. The update time of an entry is not available,  
unless an appropriate extension is present. The update time of a feed  
document is determined by the channel-level pubDate element.

This specification does not address entry ordering in archived feeds.
--->8---

This will require some tweaks to the algorithm in Appendix B as well.



On 2006/11/13, at 1:59 PM, James M Snell wrote:

> There is the Feed Rank extension which can be used to specify the  
> order
> for entries but that's still a work in progress and has been a very  
> low
> priority for me.
>
> IMHO, you should base this entirely on atom:id and atom:updated.   
> If you
> find another entry with a duplicate atom:id and a newer  
> atom:updated, it
> takes precedence.  If you find an entry with a duplicate atom:id  
> and an
> older or equal atom:updated, the one you currently have takes
> precedence.  If you want more granularity, look for app:edited  
> elements.
>
> - James
>
> Mark Nottingham wrote:
>>
>> I haven't had any feedback on the possible change below. Does anyone
>> want to see things move in this direction?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>>
>> On 2006/10/11, at 10:06 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>>
>>>> 1. I think your document might need to address what's supposed  
>>>> to happen
>>>> if duplicate items are discovered when trolling through the  
>>>> paged info.
>>>> Newer replaces older? (That makes the most sense to me) Although  
>>>> I guess
>>>> the argument might be, "what's an 'item'?".
>>>
>>> I started going down that road in early drafts, but backed away from
>>> it when it started looking like a rat hole. :)
>>>
>>> To allow FH to normatively specify what to do with duplicates, you
>>> have to figure out the ordering of entries, so you can determine  
>>> their
>>> relative precedence. Since Atom doesn't have any explicit  
>>> ordering, FH
>>> would need to either assume ordering semantics implicitly, or doing
>>> something explicit in an extension.
>>>
>>> In the paged case, this seems like a tall order, because it's  
>>> totally
>>> context-dependent; e.g., if you have OpenSearch or GData results, or
>>> orders for launching the missiles that are paged, and you happen to
>>> get a duplicate, the right thing to do may be very different.
>>>
>>> In the archived case, it's a little easier, because we're already
>>> inferring that the pages closes to current do have precedence, so we
>>> just need to figure out what to do about duplicates in the same feed
>>> document.
>>>
>>> I could see making the implied page-by-page precedence for Archived
>>> feeds in section 4 explicit. It would also be easy to add text  
>>> saying
>>> that relative precedence in the same feed document can be determined
>>> by any extension that defines ordering, defaulting to the update  
>>> time
>>> of the entries (or document order, topmost first? I think this is  
>>> what
>>> most people do, but it seems contrary to the spirit of the Atom  
>>> spec).
>>> I'm not crazy about actually defining an ordering extension (is  
>>> one in
>>> progress? James?) in FH.
>>
>> -- 
>> Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/


--
Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/




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Currently, there is no =E2=80=9Cversion=E2=80=9D element or attribute to =
reflect the current version of Atom using in an Atom feed. Does it mean =
that there will not be any new version of Atom?

=20

On the other hand, the specification mentioned =E2=80=9CIf the value of =
"type" is "xhtml", the content of atom:content MUST be a single XHTML =
div element and SHOULD be suitable for handling as XHTML.=E2=80=9D. At =
the moment, both XHTML 1.0 and 1.0 are sharing the same XML Namespace of =
http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml. However, XHTML 2.0 will have a new =
namespace http://www.w3.org/2002/06/xhtml2/, and the chance of having =
more future versions of XHTML cannot be eliminated. Have Atom prepared =
for this?

=20

Franklin Tse=20


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<head>
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<meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)">
<style>
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<p class=3DMsoNormal>Currently, there is no =E2=80=9Cversion=E2=80=9D =
element or attribute to reflect
the current version of Atom using in an Atom feed. Does it mean that =
there will
not be any new version of Atom?<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>On the other hand, the specification mentioned =
=E2=80=9CIf the value
of &quot;type&quot; is &quot;xhtml&quot;, the content of atom:content =
MUST be a
single XHTML div element and SHOULD be suitable for handling as =
XHTML.=E2=80=9D. At the
moment, both XHTML 1.0 and 1.0 are sharing the same XML Namespace of <a
href=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml</a>. =
However, XHTML
2.0 will have a new namespace <a =
href=3D"http://www.w3.org/2002/06/xhtml2/">http://www.w3.org/2002/06/xhtm=
l2/</a>,
and the chance of having more future versions of XHTML cannot be =
eliminated.
Have Atom prepared for this?<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Franklin Tse <o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C70B6E.E32C5530--




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I am sorry that I have sent an e-mail in HTML format. This is the plain t=
ext version, which has the same contents with the HTML version sent befor=
e.

Currently, there is no "version" element or attribute to reflect the curr=
ent version of Atom using in an Atom feed. Does it mean that there will n=
ot be any new version of Atom?

On the other hand, the specification mentioned =E2=80=9CIf the value of "=
type" is "xhtml", the content of atom:content MUST be a single XHTML div =
element and SHOULD be suitable for handling as XHTML.=E2=80=9D. At the mo=
ment, both XHTML 1.0 and 1.0 are sharing the same XML Namespace of "http:=
//www.w3.org/1999/xhtml". However, XHTML 2.0 will have a new namespace "h=
ttp://www.w3.org/2002/06/xhtml2/", and the chance of having more future v=
ersions of XHTML cannot be eliminated. Have Atom prepared for this?

Franklin Tse





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From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
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Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 10:53:06 -0800
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On 2006/11/18, at 8:16 AM, Tse Shing Chi ((Franklin/Whale)) wrote:

> Currently, there is no "version" element or attribute to reflect  
> the current version of Atom using in an Atom feed. Does it mean  
> that there will not be any new version of Atom?

Atom has a namespace; that can be use to introduce new versions of  
the format. That said, a new version of Atom itself should only be  
necessary if a fundamental bug or limitation is found in the  
specification of the feed itself, or in required element-level  
metadata; new metadata can be added using extensions, rather than by  
versioning Atom.

> However, XHTML 2.0 will have a new namespace "http://www.w3.org/ 
> 2002/06/xhtml2/", and the chance of having more future versions of  
> XHTML cannot be eliminated. Have Atom prepared for this?

This was intentional; if we allowed future, non-backwards compatible  
versions of HTML to appear in the same places that XHTML1 content is  
allowed, processors wouldn't know what to do with it unless they  
understood XHTML2. Tying the allowed content to a specific version of  
XHTML promotes interoperability.

Cheers,


--
Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/




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Mark Nottingham wrote:
> [snip]
> ...new metadata can be added using extensions, rather than by versioning Atom.

It's also possible for new RFC's to update the current Atom namespace in
a backwards compatible way without deprecating/obsoleting RFC4287.

>> However, XHTML 2.0 will have a new namespace
>> "http://www.w3.org/2002/06/xhtml2/", and the chance of having more
>> future versions of XHTML cannot be eliminated. Have Atom prepared for
>> this?
> 
> This was intentional; if we allowed future, non-backwards compatible
> versions of HTML to appear in the same places that XHTML1 content is
> allowed, processors wouldn't know what to do with it unless they
> understood XHTML2. Tying the allowed content to a specific version of
> XHTML promotes interoperability.
> 

That said, Atom can currently carry XHTML2 by specifying the media type
and properly declaring the namespace.

- James




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Mark Nottingham wrote:

> Atom has a namespace; that can be use to introduce new versions of the=20
> format.=20

No, no, and no. We've been down this road before in other specs, and the=20
  community wisdom is that you do not rev the namespace just to=20
introduce a new version. Doing so breaks a huge amount of the existing=20
processing chain for an application.

It is, of course, possible to introduce new elements in other=20
namespaces; and the Atom spec does a much better than average job of=20
preparing for this. Indeed there are already many interesting extensions.

However, even if fundamental flaws were found in Atom 1.0 that required=20
revisions and an Atom 1.1 or 2.0, the namespace should and almost=20
certainly woulds remain the same.


--=20
=EF=BB=BFElliotte Rusty Harold  elharo@metalab.unc.edu
Java I/O 2nd Edition Just Published!
http://www.cafeaulait.org/books/javaio2/
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=3D0596527500/ref=3Dnosim/cafeaulai=
tA/




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Elliotte Harold wrote:
> 
> However, even if fundamental flaws were found in Atom 1.0 that required 
> revisions and an Atom 1.1 or 2.0, the namespace should and almost 
> certainly woulds remain the same.
> 

Very Interesting. What would then be the purpose of "2005" in the atom 
namespace xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"?


Regards,
Nikola




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* Elliotte Harold <elharo@metalab.unc.edu> [2006-11-18 21:00]:
> Mark Nottingham wrote:
> >Atom has a namespace; that can be use to introduce new
> >versions of the format.=20
>=20
> No, no, and no. We've been down this road before in other
> specs, and the community wisdom is that you do not rev the
> namespace just to introduce a new version. Doing so breaks
> a huge amount of the existing processing chain for an
> application.
>=20
> It is, of course, possible to introduce new elements in other
> namespaces; and the Atom spec does a much better than average
> job of preparing for this. Indeed there are already many
> interesting extensions.
>=20
> However, even if fundamental flaws were found in Atom 1.0 that
> required revisions and an Atom 1.1 or 2.0, the namespace should
> and almost certainly woulds remain the same.

Yes and no.

If future changes can be made in a backward-compatible
fashion, they will go into a spec that recycles the same
namespace. Existing implementations can just ignore the
differences.

If they cannot, they will go into a spec which revs the
namespace, because trying to process documents conforming
to the new spec with existing implementations can=E2=80=99t work.

In neither case is there a need to identify the version
explicitly.

This is why Atom does not have a version attribute.

All that said, the goal during development was always that
Atom would ship when it was done and be stable thereafter.
It is now set in stone for the forseeable future. No further
development of the core format is expected. (Instead, the
spec includes a number of extension points that can be used
to repurpose the format to new use cases.)

This is another reason why Atom does not have a version
attribute.

Regards,
--=20
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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Subject: Re: Forward Compatibility
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On Nov 18, 2006, at 22:06, Nikola Stojanovic wrote:

> What would then be the purpose of "2005" in the atom namespace  
> xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"?

It indicates the year when the URI was minted. It is debatable  
whether it is a useful purpose, but that's the way the W3C mints URIs.

-- 
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen@iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/





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Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 16:19:46 -0800
To: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de>, atom-syntax@imc.org
From: Paul Hoffman <phoffman@imc.org>
Subject: Re: Forward Compatibility
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At 9:48 PM +0100 11/18/06, A. Pagaltzis wrote:
>If future changes can be made in a backward-compatible
>fashion, they will go into a spec that recycles the same
>namespace. Existing implementations can just ignore the
>differences.
>
>If they cannot, they will go into a spec which revs the
>namespace, because trying to process documents conforming
>to the new spec with existing implementations can't work.

Exactly right.

>This is another reason why Atom does not have a version
>attribute.

+1




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From: "Tse Shing Chi \(Franklin/Whale\)" <peaceable_whale@hotmail.com>
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Subject: RE: Forward Compatibility
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 10:33:39 +0800
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This means that XHTML 2 contents can be used as follows?

<content type="xhtml">
  <div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2002/06/xhtml2/">
    <!-- Contents XHTML 2.0 -->
  </div>
</content>

<content type="application/xhtml+xml">
  <div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2002/06/xhtml2/">
    <!-- Contents XHTML 2.0 -->
  </div>
</content>

By the way, are they the same?

Franklin

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of James M Snell
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 03:20
To: Mark Nottingham
Cc: Tse Shing Chi ((Franklin/Whale)); atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: Forward Compatibility




Mark Nottingham wrote:
> [snip]
> ...new metadata can be added using extensions, rather than by versioning Atom.

It's also possible for new RFC's to update the current Atom namespace in
a backwards compatible way without deprecating/obsoleting RFC4287.

>> However, XHTML 2.0 will have a new namespace
>> "http://www.w3.org/2002/06/xhtml2/", and the chance of having more
>> future versions of XHTML cannot be eliminated. Have Atom prepared for
>> this?
> 
> This was intentional; if we allowed future, non-backwards compatible
> versions of HTML to appear in the same places that XHTML1 content is
> allowed, processors wouldn't know what to do with it unless they
> understood XHTML2. Tying the allowed content to a specific version of
> XHTML promotes interoperability.
> 

That said, Atom can currently carry XHTML2 by specifying the media type
and properly declaring the namespace.

- James






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Subject: RE: Forward Compatibility
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Actually, all XHTML 1.0, 1.1 and 2.0 are members of the XHTML family. They, of course, can be carried by type="application/xhtml+xml". But it is quite confusing that type="xhtml" must be XHTML 1.0 or 1.1.

Franklin

-----Original Message-----
From: James M Snell [mailto:jasnell@gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 11:30
To: Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale)
Subject: Re: Forward Compatibility



Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) wrote:
> This means that XHTML 2 contents can be used as follows?
> 
> <content type="xhtml">
>   <div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2002/06/xhtml2/">
>     <!-- Contents XHTML 2.0 -->
>   </div>
> </content>
> 

Not this one.  When type="xhtml" you must use XHTML 1.0 or 1.1


> <content type="application/xhtml+xml">
>   <div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2002/06/xhtml2/">
>     <!-- Contents XHTML 2.0 -->
>   </div>
> </content>
> 

This should be fine.

- James





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From: Henri Sivonen <hsivonen@iki.fi>
Subject: Re: Forward Compatibility
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 11:42:57 +0200
To: Tse Shing Chi ((Franklin/Whale)) <peaceable_whale@hotmail.com>
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On Nov 19, 2006, at 04:33, Tse Shing Chi ((Franklin/Whale)) wrote:

> This means that XHTML 2 contents can be used as follows?
>
> <content type="xhtml">
>   <div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2002/06/xhtml2/">
>     <!-- Contents XHTML 2.0 -->
>   </div>
> </content>
>
> <content type="application/xhtml+xml">
>   <div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2002/06/xhtml2/">
>     <!-- Contents XHTML 2.0 -->
>   </div>
> </content>
>
> By the way, are they the same?

They are not the same and neither is correct. The correct way would be:

<content type="application/xml">
   <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2002/06/xhtml2/">
     <head>
       <title>The title of the entry again</title>
     </head>
     <body>
       <!-- Contents XHTML 2.0 -->
     </body>
   </html>
</content>

But it isn't worthwhile to spend energy on this issue. Browser  
vendors have been ignoring XHTML 2.0 and now even the W3C itself is  
moving aside the group that has been working on the XHTML 2.0 spec.

-- 
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen@iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/





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Subject: RE: Forward Compatibility
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First of all, the media type should still be "application/xhtml+xml" for XHTML 2.0, although application/xml or even text/html may be used.

I don't think whole XHTML 2.0 document needs to be contained in the content or summary element, it is too complicated. Using the div element is still a suitable way (div is remained in XHTML 2.0 without major changes, http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_div) I think.

For browsers' implementation, in fact, XHTML 1.1 is still not well-supported. CSS 2 is another example of poor implementation by browsers. I do think that Atom should not be easy to change or be updated very frequently. That's why Atom should leave some extents of forward compatibility.

Franklin

-----Original Message-----
From: Henri Sivonen [mailto:hsivonen@iki.fi] 
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 17:43
To: Tse Shing Chi ((Franklin/Whale))
Cc: Atom Syntax
Subject: Re: Forward Compatibility

On Nov 19, 2006, at 04:33, Tse Shing Chi ((Franklin/Whale)) wrote:

> This means that XHTML 2 contents can be used as follows?
>
> <content type="xhtml">
>   <div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2002/06/xhtml2/">
>     <!-- Contents XHTML 2.0 -->
>   </div>
> </content>
>
> <content type="application/xhtml+xml">
>   <div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2002/06/xhtml2/">
>     <!-- Contents XHTML 2.0 -->
>   </div>
> </content>
>
> By the way, are they the same?

They are not the same and neither is correct. The correct way would be:

<content type="application/xml">
   <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2002/06/xhtml2/">
     <head>
       <title>The title of the entry again</title>
     </head>
     <body>
       <!-- Contents XHTML 2.0 -->
     </body>
   </html>
</content>

But it isn't worthwhile to spend energy on this issue. Browser  
vendors have been ignoring XHTML 2.0 and now even the W3C itself is  
moving aside the group that has been working on the XHTML 2.0 spec.

-- 
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen@iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/







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From: Henri Sivonen <hsivonen@iki.fi>
Subject: Re: Forward Compatibility
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 16:49:20 +0200
To: Tse Shing Chi ((Franklin/Whale)) <peaceable_whale@hotmail.com>
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On Nov 19, 2006, at 12:10, Tse Shing Chi ((Franklin/Whale)) wrote:

> First of all, the media type should still be "application/xhtml 
> +xml" for XHTML 2.0, although application/xml or even text/html may  
> be used.

RFC 3236 makes it pretty clear that it is for XHTML Family documents  
in the Modularization of XHTML sense. XHTML 2.0 documents are not  
XHTML Family documents. They are incompatible documents with a  
confusing name.

> I don't think whole XHTML 2.0 document needs to be contained in the  
> content or summary element, it is too complicated. Using the div  
> element is still a suitable way (div is remained in XHTML 2.0  
> without major changes, http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod- 
> structural.html#edef_structural_div) I think.

It is not the same div. It is a completely different div in another  
namespace. That the local names are identical does not make them the  
same.

The Atom spec provides shortcuts for plain text, HTML and XHTML 1.x.  
That's it. Calling an incompatible language "XHTML" doesn't help. As  
far as Atom is concerned, XHTML 2.0 documents get the same treatment  
as any other XML document that doesn't use the XHTML 1.x namespace.

(Yes, I am aware of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/ 
2006Nov/0025 , but that resolution doesn't really make XHTML 2.0 any  
more likely to be implemented.)

> For browsers' implementation, in fact, XHTML 1.1 is still not well- 
> supported. CSS 2 is another example of poor implementation by  
> browsers. I do think that Atom should not be easy to change or be  
> updated very frequently. That's why Atom should leave some extents  
> of forward compatibility.

If you start from XHTML 1.0 and go forward, you don't end up at XHTML  
2.0 but at XHTML5. Embedding XHTML5 in Atom will work out just fine.

Forward is here:
http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/

-- 
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen@iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/





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From: "Tse Shing Chi \(Franklin/Whale\)" <peaceable_whale@hotmail.com>
To: <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: The "src" attribute of atom:content
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I recently tried to make a feed acting as a linking page. I am impressed by the "src" attribute of atom:content. Then I made a feed entry as follow.

<entry>
  <title>Example Title</title>
  <id>http://www.example.org/</id>
  <content type="text/html" src="http://www.example.org/" />
  <published>2006-11-19T13:05:00Z</published>
  <updated>2006-11-19T13:05:00Z</updated>
</entry>

Unfortunately, numbers of feed aggregators will not follow the src attribute probably due to security reasons. While I want to provide alternate text, I cannot find a way to do so since the specification of Atom mentioned, 'If the "src" attribute is present, atom:content MUST be empty.' As a result, I use atom:summary.

<entry>
  <title>Example Title</title>
  <id>http://www.example.org/</id>
<link rel=""
  <summary type="xhtml">
    <div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
      <p>Please proceed to <a href="http://www.example.org/">http://www.example.org/</a> for contents.</p>
    </div>
  </summary>
  <content type="text/html" src="http://www.example.org/" />
  <published>2006-11-19T13:05:00Z</published>
  <updated>2006-11-19T13:05:00Z</updated>
</entry>

However, it is actually an abuse of atom:summary because the "atom:summary" element is a Text construct that conveys a short summary, abstract, or excerpt of an entry.

More unfortunately, feed aggregators will not consider this entry is linking to http://www.example.org/ even though the content is external.

As a result, atom:link is added.

<entry>
  <title>Example Title</title>
  <id>http://www.example.org/</id>
  <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.example.org/" />
  <summary type="xhtml">
    <div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
      <p>Please proceed to <a href="http://www.example.org/">http://www.example.org/</a> for contents.</p>
    </div>
  </summary>
  <content type="text/html" src="http://www.example.org/" />
  <published>2006-11-19T13:05:00Z</published>
  <updated>2006-11-19T13:05:00Z</updated>
</entry>

I did not imagine how complicated the situation is. And after doing so many things, <content type="text/html" src="http://www.example.org/" /> is proved to be useless. However, I do hope that it is useful. The followings are my thoughts.

1. When the "src" attribute of atom:content is present, it includes the meaning of having an alternate link to the same URI inside "src".

2. atom:content SHOULD NOT be empty. I think that atom:content is something like xhtml:object. Alternate contents should be put inside the element.

For examples:

<content type="text/html" src="http://www.example.org/">
  <content type="xhtml">
    <div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
      <p>Please proceed to <a href="http://www.example.org/">http://www.example.org/</a> for contents.</p>
    </div>
  </content>
</content>

Or

<content type="text/html" src="http://www.example.org/" alternatetype="xhtml">
  <div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
    <p>Please proceed to <a href="http://www.example.org/">http://www.example.org/</a> for contents.</p>
  </div>
</content>

I do think providing alternate content is important.

Franklin Tse





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Subject: RE: Forward Compatibility
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Even though XHTML 2.0 cannot be carried under type="xhtml", I don't think that whole XHTML 2.0 document is required to be placed under type="application/xhtml+xml".

XHTML 2.0, on the other hand, is a member of the XHTML family according to the specification.

== Copied from http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/introduction.html ==

*********************************

1.3. What are the XHTML 2 Modules?
XHTML 2 is a member of the XHTML Family of markup languages. It is an XHTML Host Language as defined in XHTML Modularization. As such, it is made up of a set of XHTML Modules that together describe the elements and attributes of the language, and their content model. XHTML 2 updates many of the modules defined in XHTML Modularization 1.0, and includes the updated versions of all those modules and their semantics. XHTML 2 also uses modules from Ruby, XML Events, and XForms.

The modules defined in this specification are largely extensions of the modules defined in XHTML Modularization 1.0. This specification also defines the semantics of the modules it includes. So, that means that unlike earlier versions of XHTML that relied upon the semantics defined in HTML 4, all of the semantics for XHTML 2 are defined either in this specification or in the specifications that it normatively references.

Even though the XHTML 2 modules are defined in this specification, they are available for use in other XHTML family markup languages. Over time, it is possible that the modules defined in this specification will migrate into the XHTML Modularization specification.

**********************************

Anyway, I know that HTML 5 is under development and provide good backward compatibility.

Franklin

-----Original Message-----
From: Henri Sivonen [mailto:hsivonen@iki.fi] 
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 22:49
To: Tse Shing Chi ((Franklin/Whale))
Cc: 'Atom Syntax'
Subject: Re: Forward Compatibility

On Nov 19, 2006, at 12:10, Tse Shing Chi ((Franklin/Whale)) wrote:

> First of all, the media type should still be "application/xhtml 
> +xml" for XHTML 2.0, although application/xml or even text/html may  
> be used.

RFC 3236 makes it pretty clear that it is for XHTML Family documents  
in the Modularization of XHTML sense. XHTML 2.0 documents are not  
XHTML Family documents. They are incompatible documents with a  
confusing name.

> I don't think whole XHTML 2.0 document needs to be contained in the  
> content or summary element, it is too complicated. Using the div  
> element is still a suitable way (div is remained in XHTML 2.0  
> without major changes, http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod- 
> structural.html#edef_structural_div) I think.

It is not the same div. It is a completely different div in another  
namespace. That the local names are identical does not make them the  
same.

The Atom spec provides shortcuts for plain text, HTML and XHTML 1.x.  
That's it. Calling an incompatible language "XHTML" doesn't help. As  
far as Atom is concerned, XHTML 2.0 documents get the same treatment  
as any other XML document that doesn't use the XHTML 1.x namespace.

(Yes, I am aware of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/ 
2006Nov/0025 , but that resolution doesn't really make XHTML 2.0 any  
more likely to be implemented.)

> For browsers' implementation, in fact, XHTML 1.1 is still not well- 
> supported. CSS 2 is another example of poor implementation by  
> browsers. I do think that Atom should not be easy to change or be  
> updated very frequently. That's why Atom should leave some extents  
> of forward compatibility.

If you start from XHTML 1.0 and go forward, you don't end up at XHTML  
2.0 but at XHTML5. Embedding XHTML5 in Atom will work out just fine.

Forward is here:
http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/

-- 
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen@iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/







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* Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) <peaceable_whale@hotmail.com> [2006-11-1=
9 16:05]:
> Unfortunately, numbers of feed aggregators will not follow the
> src attribute probably due to security reasons.

atom:content/@src is indeed not well supported. Many aggregators
aren=E2=80=99t even aware of the attribute and don=E2=80=99t do even as m=
uch as
showing a link to the external content. This is broken; please
file a bug against the aggregator in question.

> However, it is actually an abuse of atom:summary because the
> "atom:summary" element is a Text construct that conveys a short
> summary, abstract, or excerpt of an entry.
=20
Agreed.

> More unfortunately, feed aggregators will not consider this
> entry is linking to http://www.example.org/ even though the
> content is external.

This is correct and by design (though implementation correctness
here is probably often by accident; see above).

> The followings are my thoughts.
>=20
> 1. When the "src" attribute of atom:content is present, it
> includes the meaning of having an alternate link to the same
> URI inside "src".
>=20
> 2. atom:content SHOULD NOT be empty. I think that atom:content
> is something like xhtml:object. Alternate contents should be
> put inside the element.

We could discuss whether these ideas would have been worthwhile.
However, this is moot, as the spec is done and cannot be changed.
Since these suggestions are incompatible with RFC 4287, they
cannot be recommended as best practices either. Sorry. :-(

Regards,
--=20
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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Subject: RE: The "src" attribute of atom:content
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 00:54:18 +0800
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Why can't change the specification? It is currently a proposed standard o=
nly.

I still think that providing alternate content is very important... at le=
ast... add an "alt" attribute to atom:content as if xhtml:img...

Franklin

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.o=
rg] On Behalf Of A. Pagaltzis
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 00:15
To: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: The "src" attribute of atom:content


* Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) <peaceable_whale@hotmail.com> [2006-11-1=
9 16:05]:
> Unfortunately, numbers of feed aggregators will not follow the
> src attribute probably due to security reasons.

atom:content/@src is indeed not well supported. Many aggregators
aren=E2=80=99t even aware of the attribute and don=E2=80=99t do even as m=
uch as
showing a link to the external content. This is broken; please
file a bug against the aggregator in question.

> However, it is actually an abuse of atom:summary because the
> "atom:summary" element is a Text construct that conveys a short
> summary, abstract, or excerpt of an entry.
=20
Agreed.

> More unfortunately, feed aggregators will not consider this
> entry is linking to http://www.example.org/ even though the
> content is external.

This is correct and by design (though implementation correctness
here is probably often by accident; see above).

> The followings are my thoughts.
>=20
> 1. When the "src" attribute of atom:content is present, it
> includes the meaning of having an alternate link to the same
> URI inside "src".
>=20
> 2. atom:content SHOULD NOT be empty. I think that atom:content
> is something like xhtml:object. Alternate contents should be
> put inside the element.

We could discuss whether these ideas would have been worthwhile.
However, this is moot, as the spec is done and cannot be changed.
Since these suggestions are incompatible with RFC 4287, they
cannot be recommended as best practices either. Sorry. :-(

Regards,
--=20
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>






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Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 09:19:41 -0800
From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: The "src" attribute of atom:content
References: <000601c70be9$88dc4150$9a94c3f0$@com> <20061119161529.GI17418@klangraum> <BAY117-DAV2B5A3D1C94CBCB8E6F50A9FEE0@phx.gbl>
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The spec can be changed, it's just not a great idea to do so until we
get a critical mass of issues that can't seem to be adequately worked
around.

You can accomplish what you're trying to do by throwing in an alternate
link, using the summary element and dropping the content.

<entry>
  <title>Example Title</title>
  <id>http://www.example.org/</id>
  <summary>A simple explanation of quantum entaglement</summary>
  <link type=3D"text/html" src=3D"http://www.example.org/" />
  <published>2006-11-19T13:05:00Z</published>
  <updated>2006-11-19T13:05:00Z</updated>
</entry>

However, you should do as Aristotle suggests and file a bug report with
any aggregator that does not support the content/@src attribute.

- James


Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) wrote:
> Why can't change the specification? It is currently a proposed standard=
 only.
>=20
> I still think that providing alternate content is very important... at =
least... add an "alt" attribute to atom:content as if xhtml:img...
>=20
> Franklin
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc=
.org] On Behalf Of A. Pagaltzis
> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 00:15
> To: atom-syntax@imc.org
> Subject: Re: The "src" attribute of atom:content
>=20
>=20
> * Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) <peaceable_whale@hotmail.com> [2006-11=
-19 16:05]:
>> Unfortunately, numbers of feed aggregators will not follow the
>> src attribute probably due to security reasons.
>=20
> atom:content/@src is indeed not well supported. Many aggregators
> aren=E2=80=99t even aware of the attribute and don=E2=80=99t do even as=
 much as
> showing a link to the external content. This is broken; please
> file a bug against the aggregator in question.
>=20
>> However, it is actually an abuse of atom:summary because the
>> "atom:summary" element is a Text construct that conveys a short
>> summary, abstract, or excerpt of an entry.
> =20
> Agreed.
>=20
>> More unfortunately, feed aggregators will not consider this
>> entry is linking to http://www.example.org/ even though the
>> content is external.
>=20
> This is correct and by design (though implementation correctness
> here is probably often by accident; see above).
>=20
>> The followings are my thoughts.
>>
>> 1. When the "src" attribute of atom:content is present, it
>> includes the meaning of having an alternate link to the same
>> URI inside "src".
>>
>> 2. atom:content SHOULD NOT be empty. I think that atom:content
>> is something like xhtml:object. Alternate contents should be
>> put inside the element.
>=20
> We could discuss whether these ideas would have been worthwhile.
> However, this is moot, as the spec is done and cannot be changed.
> Since these suggestions are incompatible with RFC 4287, they
> cannot be recommended as best practices either. Sorry. :-(
>=20
> Regards,




From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun Nov 19 13:11:36 2006
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Subject: RE: The "src" attribute of atom:content
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 01:53:18 +0800
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The spec. mentioned, "Atom Processors MAY choose to ignore remote content=
". However, there is no instructions or guidelines for aggregators to fol=
low about what they should do when they choose not to load the external c=
ontent.

> You can accomplish what you're trying to do by throwing in an alternate
> link, using the summary element and dropping the content.

Yes, I can. But what is the use of atom:content/@src then? The src attrib=
ute can be removed from the spec if it is the case.

Franklin

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.o=
rg] On Behalf Of James M Snell
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 01:20
To: Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale)
Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: The "src" attribute of atom:content


The spec can be changed, it's just not a great idea to do so until we
get a critical mass of issues that can't seem to be adequately worked
around.

You can accomplish what you're trying to do by throwing in an alternate
link, using the summary element and dropping the content.

<entry>
  <title>Example Title</title>
  <id>http://www.example.org/</id>
  <summary>A simple explanation of quantum entaglement</summary>
  <link type=3D"text/html" src=3D"http://www.example.org/" />
  <published>2006-11-19T13:05:00Z</published>
  <updated>2006-11-19T13:05:00Z</updated>
</entry>

However, you should do as Aristotle suggests and file a bug report with
any aggregator that does not support the content/@src attribute.

- James


Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) wrote:
> Why can't change the specification? It is currently a proposed standard=
 only.
>=20
> I still think that providing alternate content is very important... at =
least... add an "alt" attribute to atom:content as if xhtml:img...
>=20
> Franklin
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc=
.org] On Behalf Of A. Pagaltzis
> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 00:15
> To: atom-syntax@imc.org
> Subject: Re: The "src" attribute of atom:content
>=20
>=20
> * Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) <peaceable_whale@hotmail.com> [2006-11=
-19 16:05]:
>> Unfortunately, numbers of feed aggregators will not follow the
>> src attribute probably due to security reasons.
>=20
> atom:content/@src is indeed not well supported. Many aggregators
> aren=E2=80=99t even aware of the attribute and don=E2=80=99t do even as=
 much as
> showing a link to the external content. This is broken; please
> file a bug against the aggregator in question.
>=20
>> However, it is actually an abuse of atom:summary because the
>> "atom:summary" element is a Text construct that conveys a short
>> summary, abstract, or excerpt of an entry.
> =20
> Agreed.
>=20
>> More unfortunately, feed aggregators will not consider this
>> entry is linking to http://www.example.org/ even though the
>> content is external.
>=20
> This is correct and by design (though implementation correctness
> here is probably often by accident; see above).
>=20
>> The followings are my thoughts.
>>
>> 1. When the "src" attribute of atom:content is present, it
>> includes the meaning of having an alternate link to the same
>> URI inside "src".
>>
>> 2. atom:content SHOULD NOT be empty. I think that atom:content
>> is something like xhtml:object. Alternate contents should be
>> put inside the element.
>=20
> We could discuss whether these ideas would have been worthwhile.
> However, this is moot, as the spec is done and cannot be changed.
> Since these suggestions are incompatible with RFC 4287, they
> cannot be recommended as best practices either. Sorry. :-(
>=20
> Regards,






From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 20 00:50:03 2006
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* Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) <peaceable_whale@hotmail.com> [2006-11-19 19:10]:
> But what is the use of atom:content/@src then? The src
> attribute can be removed from the spec if it is the case.

External content is useful for binary formats; inlining huge
base64-encoded binary blobs would be silly. Keep in mind that
Atom is intended as a general envelope format with more use cases
than just weblog feeds, even if that is all it is currently used
for.

For now, weblog publishing platforms tend to treat Atom as
completely interchangable with RSS 2.0 in terms of features. So
in practice, aggregators do not yet really support features of
Atom that go beyond RSS 2.0. I believe this will change in time,
and the APP will probably be a catalyst there, but for the time
being, on the open web, Atom is just a better RSS. Fancier uses
will tend to run into lack of support.

Regards,
-- 
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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Subject: RE: The "src" attribute of atom:content
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 15:46:54 +0800
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In fact, I do hope that content/@src is useful. I asked that question because I really wonder whether the alternate link + summary "workaround" can replace content/@src.

However, content/@src is NOT clearly defined at the moment, specially what aggregators should do.

When aggregators do not understand the remote content in (a). Why should they do? There is no alternate link provided, should a link to the external content be shown? The specification mentioned, "Atom Processors MAY choose to ignore remote content", but it does not mean that a Atom Processors should ignore whole entry.

The author of the feed knows the issue, but there is no way for him to solve the problem. The specification of Atom does not give him a chance to provide alternate format of content.

The condition may be better in (b), where there is a summary. The author assumed that aggregators will show the summary when the content is not loaded. However, this action in undefined in any standard and not all aggregators follow. On the other hand, the author is actually abusing the summary element. Even though aggregators really show the summary, should a link to the external content be shown? There is no alternate link provide.

There is an alternate link, a summary and a remote content in (c). But does it mean that everything works fine? And, where is the difference between (c) and (d) finally? Does it mean that using the content/@src in an Atom feed is useless?

I hope the examples can clarify what I am concerning about. The problem of content/@src is not only caused by aggregators, but also the poor definition of atom:content in the specification.

Franklin


Reference:

(a) <entry>
      <title>Example Title</title>
      <id>http://www.example.org/example.pdf</id>
      <content type="application/pdf" src="http://www.example.org/example.pdf" />
      <published>2006-11-20T07:28:00Z</published>
      <updated>2006-11-20T17:28:00Z</updated>
    </entry>

(b) <entry>
      <title>Example Title</title>
      <id>http://www.example.org/example.pdf</id>
      <summary><!-- some alternate text --></summary>
      <content type="application/pdf" src="http://www.example.org/example.pdf" />
      <published>2006-11-20T07:28:00Z</published>
      <updated>2006-11-20T17:28:00Z</updated>
    </entry>

(c) <entry>
      <title>Example Title</title>
      <id>http://www.example.org/example.pdf</id>
      <link rel="alternate" type="application/pdf" href="http://www.example.org/example.pdf" />
      <summary><!-- some alternate text --></summary>
      <content type="application/pdf" src="http://www.example.org/example.pdf" />
      <published>2006-11-20T07:28:00Z</published>
      <updated>2006-11-20T17:28:00Z</updated>
    </entry>

(d) <entry>
      <title>Example Title</title>
      <id>http://www.example.org/example.pdf</id>
      <link rel="alternate" type="application/pdf" href="http://www.example.org/example.pdf" />
      <summary><!-- some alternate text --></summary>
      <published>2006-11-20T07:28:00Z</published>
      <updated>2006-11-20T17:28:00Z</updated>
    </entry>

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of A. Pagaltzis
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 13:33
To: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: The "src" attribute of atom:content


* Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) <peaceable_whale@hotmail.com> [2006-11-19 19:10]:
> But what is the use of atom:content/@src then? The src
> attribute can be removed from the spec if it is the case.

External content is useful for binary formats; inlining huge
base64-encoded binary blobs would be silly. Keep in mind that
Atom is intended as a general envelope format with more use cases
than just weblog feeds, even if that is all it is currently used
for.

For now, weblog publishing platforms tend to treat Atom as
completely interchangable with RSS 2.0 in terms of features. So
in practice, aggregators do not yet really support features of
Atom that go beyond RSS 2.0. I believe this will change in time,
and the APP will probably be a catalyst there, but for the time
being, on the open web, Atom is just a better RSS. Fancier uses
will tend to run into lack of support.

Regards,
-- 
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>






From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 20 03:22:02 2006
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Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) wrote:
> In fact, I do hope that content/@src is useful. I asked that question because I really wonder whether the alternate link + summary "workaround" can replace content/@src.
> 
> However, content/@src is NOT clearly defined at the moment, specially what aggregators should do.

I'm not sure you've read Aristotle correctly. Aggregators are only one
of the target of Atom. The format is not focused solely on blog
publishing, it's much larger than that.

Therefore Atom may sound like lacking of clarity in some aspects but
this is because you read it as if the specification had been written for
one purpose only.

Your question should instead be brought up to the aggregator authors
attention so that some kind of best practice can be decided and implemented.

Not everything has to belong to the specification.


- Sylvain




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Subject: RE: The "src" attribute of atom:content
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> I'm not sure you've read Aristotle correctly. Aggregators are only one
> of the target of Atom. The format is not focused solely on blog
> publishing, it's much larger than that.

I do think in what purpose of using atom:content/@src, alternate content in a different format is still necessary. NO Atom processors can understand all the media types in the world. 

> Your question should instead be brought up to the aggregator authors
> attention so that some kind of best practice can be decided and implemented.

Actually, all aggregators which support Atom are written based on the specification. It is not possible to ask ALL aggregators to follow the same mechanism unless or until it is specified. I still see the need to define the elements some mechanisms in the specification more clearly.

You may read my mail that you have replied again. I am asking numbers of questions about what authors and the aggregators can do. There are no answers found at the moment.

Franklin

-----Original Message-----
From: Sylvain Hellegouarch [mailto:sh@defuze.org] 
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 16:02
To: Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale)
Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: The "src" attribute of atom:content

Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) wrote:
> In fact, I do hope that content/@src is useful. I asked that question because I really wonder whether the alternate link + summary "workaround" can replace content/@src.
> 
> However, content/@src is NOT clearly defined at the moment, specially what aggregators should do.

I'm not sure you've read Aristotle correctly. Aggregators are only one
of the target of Atom. The format is not focused solely on blog
publishing, it's much larger than that.

Therefore Atom may sound like lacking of clarity in some aspects but
this is because you read it as if the specification had been written for
one purpose only.

Your question should instead be brought up to the aggregator authors
attention so that some kind of best practice can be decided and implemented.

Not everything has to belong to the specification.


- Sylvain





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Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) wrote:
>[snip]
> I do think in what purpose of using atom:content/@src, alternate content in a 
> different format is still necessary. NO Atom processors can understand
all the
> media types in the world. 
> 

They don't have to understand the media type.  They merely have to
understand how to make that data available.  Atom processors can easily
dispatch the media to an appropriate application.

- James




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Subject: RE: The "src" attribute of atom:content
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 16:50:05 +0800
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> Atom processors can easily dispatch the media to an appropriate application.

Yes, some of them can. But a number of processors cannot do so, especially the web-based processors. As a result, a fallback mechanism is very necessary when they do not understand the remote content or they cannot dispatch the media to an appropriate application.

=========================

By the way, James, I found an Atom feed written by you testing the atom:content/@src.

http://www.snellspace.com/public/contentsummary.xml

You used <summary>If you're seeing this, your feed reader is doing a good thing. It doesn't understand the content so it is showing the text summary instead.</summary>. Actually it is the alternate text instead of the "summary".

On the other hand, this mechanism is undefined in the specification or in any related standards.

Franklin


-----Original Message-----
From: James M Snell [mailto:jasnell@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 16:42
To: Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale)
Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: The "src" attribute of atom:content



Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) wrote:
>[snip]
> I do think in what purpose of using atom:content/@src, alternate content in a 
> different format is still necessary. NO Atom processors can understand
all the
> media types in the world. 
> 

They don't have to understand the media type.  They merely have to
understand how to make that data available.  Atom processors can easily
dispatch the media to an appropriate application.

- James





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Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) wrote:
>> I'm not sure you've read Aristotle correctly. Aggregators are only one
>> of the target of Atom. The format is not focused solely on blog
>> publishing, it's much larger than that.
> 
> I do think in what purpose of using atom:content/@src, alternate content in a different format is still necessary. NO Atom processors can understand all the media types in the world. 
> 

But Atom processors don't have to understand any media types.
I can understand why applications built on top of Atom processors might
need a fallback position but not atom processors.

In any case if an application chooses not to follow the remote content
@src then it's up to that application to provide its own fallback.

- Sylvain




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Subject: RE: The "src" attribute of atom:content
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> In any case if an application chooses not to follow the remote content
> @src then it's up to that application to provide its own fallback.

That's the problem. Since there is no defined fallback mechanism, the actual mechanism varies from application to application. Authors of an Atom feeds cannot expect feed readers will do, and they are not given a chance to provide alternate content in a different format.

Franklin

-----Original Message-----
From: Sylvain Hellegouarch [mailto:sh@defuze.org] 
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 16:52
To: Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale)
Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: The "src" attribute of atom:content

Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) wrote:
>> I'm not sure you've read Aristotle correctly. Aggregators are only one
>> of the target of Atom. The format is not focused solely on blog
>> publishing, it's much larger than that.
> 
> I do think in what purpose of using atom:content/@src, alternate content in a different format is still necessary. NO Atom processors can understand all the media types in the world. 
> 

But Atom processors don't have to understand any media types.
I can understand why applications built on top of Atom processors might
need a fallback position but not atom processors.

In any case if an application chooses not to follow the remote content
@src then it's up to that application to provide its own fallback.

- Sylvain





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**This mail is to correct the last mail**

> In any case if an application chooses not to follow the remote content
> @src then it's up to that application to provide its own fallback.

That's the problem. Since there is no defined fallback mechanism, the actual mechanism varies from application to application. Authors of Atom feeds cannot expect what feed readers will do, and they are not given a chance to provide alternate content in a different format.

Corrections:
1. deleted "an" before "Atom feeds"
2. added "what "before " feed readers will do" to complete the idea

Franklin

-----Original Message-----
From: Sylvain Hellegouarch [mailto:sh@defuze.org] 
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 16:52
To: Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale)
Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: The "src" attribute of atom:content

Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) wrote:
>> I'm not sure you've read Aristotle correctly. Aggregators are only one
>> of the target of Atom. The format is not focused solely on blog
>> publishing, it's much larger than that.
> 
> I do think in what purpose of using atom:content/@src, alternate content in a different format is still necessary. NO Atom processors can understand all the media types in the world. 
> 

But Atom processors don't have to understand any media types.
I can understand why applications built on top of Atom processors might
need a fallback position but not atom processors.

In any case if an application chooses not to follow the remote content
@src then it's up to that application to provide its own fallback.

- Sylvain





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On Nov 19, 2006, at 4:10 AM, Tse Shing Chi ((Franklin/Whale)) wrote:
> I don't think whole XHTML 2.0 document needs to be contained in the  
> content or summary element, it is too complicated.

 From RFC 4287, section 4.1.3.3:

    4.  If the value of "type" is an XML media type [RFC3023] or ends
        with "+xml" or "/xml" (case insensitive), the content of
        atom:content MAY include child elements and SHOULD be suitable
        for handling as the indicated media type.  If the "src"  
attribute
        is not provided, this would normally mean that the  
"atom:content"
        element would contain a single child element that would serve as
        the root element of the XML document of the indicated type.

I understand your not wanting to put a complete XHTML 2.0 document  
inside atom:content or atom:summary, but since DIV isn't supposed to  
be the root element of an XHTML 2.0 document, omitting the rest of  
the document violates at least the "spirit" of the Atom spec...though  
we didn't use normative language where it says "normally" to actually  
prohibit it.

We did however discuss and reject the idea of explicitly allowing  
document fragments of the specified MIME media type.  Doing so would  
have created ambiguity--you wouldn't know whether it was safe to hand  
the data off to a widget that only knows how to process complete  
documents, or whether it was a fragment that needed some sort of  
special treatment.




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From: Antone Roundy <antone@geckotribe.com>
Subject: Re: The "src" attribute of atom:content
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 08:59:45 -0600
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On Nov 19, 2006, at 11:53 AM, Tse Shing Chi ((Franklin/Whale)) wrote:
> The spec. mentioned, "Atom Processors MAY choose to ignore remote  
> content". However, there is no instructions or guidelines for  
> aggregators to follow about what they should do when they choose  
> not to load the external content.
That was a warning to feed producers that if they choose to use  
remote content, consumers might not see it.  There are no guidelines  
for what aggregators should do because:

1) we have no prior experience upon which to base our recommendations  
for a best practice in that case.

2) we didn't want to place the burden of any particular processing  
requirements on Atom processor authors in cases where producers have  
chosen to do things that are more complex than what's needed in most  
cases.

So the lack of instructions for how to handle such cases was  
intentional.  Over time, a best practice or best practices will  
emerge from actual experience in the market.   Perhaps some future  
specification will specify what to do, and maybe it will continue to  
be left up to the consuming application--which might be best if  
remote content remains an edge case.

> That's the problem. Since there is no defined fallback mechanism,  
> the actual mechanism varies from application to application.  
> Authors of Atom feeds cannot expect what feed readers will do, and  
> they are not given a chance to provide alternate content in a  
> different format.
Yep, that's why we warned them that remote content might get ignored.

Note that the Atom spec says:

    o  atom:entry elements MUST contain an atom:summary element in  
either
       of the following cases:
       *  the atom:entry contains an atom:content that has a "src"
          attribute (and is thus empty).

So some of your examples are invalid--they MUST contain atom:summary.

So here are the real questions that I can think of:

1) If there is only one representation of the content (the one  
pointed to by atom:content/@src), should there be an atom:link 
[@src="alternate"] pointing to it too?
2) If there is no atom:link[@src="alternate"], should atom:content/ 
@src should be used in in it's place?
3) If there is an atom:link[@src="alternate"] with a different type  
from atom:content/@type, should atom:content/@src be presented as  
another alternative?

If #2 is adopted as a best practice (...and is followed!), #1 would  
be entirely unnecessary.  Semantically, #1 is a little off anyway,  
because it's not an "alternative" representation, it's THE  
representation.

I think #3 shlu.d be left entirely up to the consuming application,  
because what's appropriate in some cases will not be appropriate in  
others.  It's essentially the same question as whether multiple  
atom:link[@src="alternate"] with different types will all be  
presented, or whether just one will be chosen.




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Subject: RE: Forward Compatibility
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 23:47:53 +0800
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> I understand your not wanting to put a complete XHTML 2.0 document  
> inside atom:content or atom:summary, but since DIV isn't supposed to  
> be the root element of an XHTML 2.0 document, omitting the rest of  
> the document violates at least the "spirit" of the Atom spec...though  
> we didn't use normative language where it says "normally" to actually  
> prohibit it.

But div is not the root element of XHTML 1.x as well.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Antone Roundy
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 22:19
To: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: Forward Compatibility


On Nov 19, 2006, at 4:10 AM, Tse Shing Chi ((Franklin/Whale)) wrote:
> I don't think whole XHTML 2.0 document needs to be contained in the  
> content or summary element, it is too complicated.

 From RFC 4287, section 4.1.3.3:

    4.  If the value of "type" is an XML media type [RFC3023] or ends
        with "+xml" or "/xml" (case insensitive), the content of
        atom:content MAY include child elements and SHOULD be suitable
        for handling as the indicated media type.  If the "src"  
attribute
        is not provided, this would normally mean that the  
"atom:content"
        element would contain a single child element that would serve as
        the root element of the XML document of the indicated type.

I understand your not wanting to put a complete XHTML 2.0 document  
inside atom:content or atom:summary, but since DIV isn't supposed to  
be the root element of an XHTML 2.0 document, omitting the rest of  
the document violates at least the "spirit" of the Atom spec...though  
we didn't use normative language where it says "normally" to actually  
prohibit it.

We did however discuss and reject the idea of explicitly allowing  
document fragments of the specified MIME media type.  Doing so would  
have created ambiguity--you wouldn't know whether it was safe to hand  
the data off to a widget that only knows how to process complete  
documents, or whether it was a fragment that needed some sort of  
special treatment.






From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 20 11:14:31 2006
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IOW, using the XHTML2 div as the child is compliant in a strictly sense
but should be avoided because it will likely cause problems.

- James

Antone Roundy wrote:
> [snip]
> I understand your not wanting to put a complete XHTML 2.0 document
> inside atom:content or atom:summary, but since DIV isn't supposed to be
> the root element of an XHTML 2.0 document, omitting the rest of the
> document violates at least the "spirit" of the Atom spec...though we
> didn't use normative language where it says "normally" to actually
> prohibit it.
> 
> We did however discuss and reject the idea of explicitly allowing
> document fragments of the specified MIME media type.  Doing so would
> have created ambiguity--you wouldn't know whether it was safe to hand
> the data off to a widget that only knows how to process complete
> documents, or whether it was a fragment that needed some sort of special
> treatment.
> 
> 




From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Nov 20 11:23:33 2006
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Subject: RE: The "src" attribute of atom:content
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 23:56:34 +0800
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Thanks for reminding me that atom:entry elements MUST contain an atom:summary element when the atom:entry contains an atom:content that has a "src"attribute (and is thus empty).

However, summary is different with alternate text... In some cases, providing summary can be difficult.

> If #2 is adopted as a best practice (...and is followed!), #1 would  
> be entirely unnecessary.  Semantically, #1 is a little off anyway,  
> because it's not an "alternative" representation, it's THE  
> representation.

Agreed.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Antone Roundy
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 23:00
To: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: The "src" attribute of atom:content


On Nov 19, 2006, at 11:53 AM, Tse Shing Chi ((Franklin/Whale)) wrote:
> The spec. mentioned, "Atom Processors MAY choose to ignore remote  
> content". However, there is no instructions or guidelines for  
> aggregators to follow about what they should do when they choose  
> not to load the external content.
That was a warning to feed producers that if they choose to use  
remote content, consumers might not see it.  There are no guidelines  
for what aggregators should do because:

1) we have no prior experience upon which to base our recommendations  
for a best practice in that case.

2) we didn't want to place the burden of any particular processing  
requirements on Atom processor authors in cases where producers have  
chosen to do things that are more complex than what's needed in most  
cases.

So the lack of instructions for how to handle such cases was  
intentional.  Over time, a best practice or best practices will  
emerge from actual experience in the market.   Perhaps some future  
specification will specify what to do, and maybe it will continue to  
be left up to the consuming application--which might be best if  
remote content remains an edge case.

> That's the problem. Since there is no defined fallback mechanism,  
> the actual mechanism varies from application to application.  
> Authors of Atom feeds cannot expect what feed readers will do, and  
> they are not given a chance to provide alternate content in a  
> different format.
Yep, that's why we warned them that remote content might get ignored.

Note that the Atom spec says:

    o  atom:entry elements MUST contain an atom:summary element in  
either
       of the following cases:
       *  the atom:entry contains an atom:content that has a "src"
          attribute (and is thus empty).

So some of your examples are invalid--they MUST contain atom:summary.

So here are the real questions that I can think of:

1) If there is only one representation of the content (the one  
pointed to by atom:content/@src), should there be an atom:link 
[@src="alternate"] pointing to it too?
2) If there is no atom:link[@src="alternate"], should atom:content/ 
@src should be used in in it's place?
3) If there is an atom:link[@src="alternate"] with a different type  
from atom:content/@type, should atom:content/@src be presented as  
another alternative?

If #2 is adopted as a best practice (...and is followed!), #1 would  
be entirely unnecessary.  Semantically, #1 is a little off anyway,  
because it's not an "alternative" representation, it's THE  
representation.

I think #3 shlu.d be left entirely up to the consuming application,  
because what's appropriate in some cases will not be appropriate in  
others.  It's essentially the same question as whether multiple  
atom:link[@src="alternate"] with different types will all be  
presented, or whether just one will be chosen.






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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 08:12:31 -0800
From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Forward Compatibility
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Which is why type=xhtml" and type="application/xhtml+xml" need to be
treated differently.  With the former, the child is <div>, with the
latter it *should* be <html>.

- James

Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) wrote:
> [snip]
> But div is not the root element of XHTML 1.x as well.
> 




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Subject: RE: The "src" attribute of atom:content
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I know that atom:summary can carry the three pre-defined types only. 

Actually, a problem is still not solved, what should Atom processors do when they do not understand the content in an entry like (B)?

On the other hand, atom:content/@src can be replaced by xhtml:object like (A), and there is a good fallback mechanism defined in the HTML/XHTML Specification. Can it prove that atom:content/@src is not necessary?

Remark: Content in (B) is copied from http://www.w3.org/Icons/valid-svg11-v.svg.

- Reference -

A:
	<entry>
		<title>Example Test</title>
		<id>http://www.w3.org/Icons/valid-svg11-v.svg</id>
		<content type="xhtml">
			<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
				<object type="image/svg+xml" data="http://www.w3.org/Icons/valid-svg11-v.svg">
				  <!-- alternate text -->
				</object>
			</div>
		</content>
		<published>2006-11-20T11:50:00Z</published>
		<updated>2006-11-20T11:50:00Z</updated>
	</entry>

B:
	<entry>
		<title>Example Test</title>
		<id>http://www.w3.org/Icons/valid-svg11-v.svg</id>
		<content type="image/svg+xml">
			<svg xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2000/svg' xml:space='preserve' version='1.1' overflow='visible' xmlns:xlink='http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink' viewBox='0 0 88 31'>
				<g shape-rendering='geometricPrecision' text-rendering='geometricPrecision' image-rendering='optimizeQuality'>
					<g id='Background'>
					</g>
					<g id='Guides'>
					</g>
					<g id='Foreground'>
						<g>
							<polygon points='0,0 88,0 88,31 0,31 0,0   ' fill='none'/>
							<path d='M44,15.5' fill='none'/>
						</g>
						<g>
							<polygon points='0,0 83,0 83,31 0,31 0,0   ' fill='#FFCC66'/>
							<path d='M41.5,15.5' fill='#FFCC66'/>
						</g>
						<g>
							<polygon points='0.365,0 36.809,0 36.809,31 0.365,31 0.365,0   ' fill='#FFFFFF'/>
							<path d='M18.587,15.5' fill='#FFFFFF'/>
						</g>
						<g>
							<polygon points='4.692,2.291 44.697,2.291 44.697,26.898 4.692,26.898 4.692,2.291   ' fill='none'/>
							<path d='M24.695,14.594' fill='none'/>
						</g>
						<g>
							<g>
								<defs>
									<polygon points='0,30 83,30 83,31 0,31 0,30     ' id='XMLID_973_'/>
								</defs>
								<use xlink:href='#XMLID_973_' fill='#504D4C'/>
								<clipPath id='XMLID_999_'>
									<use xlink:href='#XMLID_973_'/>
								</clipPath>
								<g clip-path='url(#XMLID_999_)'>
									<g>
										<polygon points='0,0 88,0 88,31 0,31 0,0      ' fill='none'/>
										<path d='M44,15.5' fill='none'/>
									</g>
									<g>
										<polygon points='0,0 83,0 83,31 0,31 0,0      ' fill='#4E4B3F'/>
										<path d='M41.5,15.5' fill='#4E4B3F'/>
									</g>
									<g>
										<polygon points='0.365,0 36.809,0 36.809,31 0.365,31 0.365,0      ' fill='#4F4F4F'/>
										<path d='M18.587,15.5' fill='#4F4F4F'/>
									</g>
								</g>
							</g>
						</g>
						<g>
							<g>
								<defs>
									<polygon points='82,0 83,0 83,31 82,31 82,0     ' id='XMLID_975_'/>
								</defs>
								<use xlink:href='#XMLID_975_' fill='#504D4C'/>
								<clipPath id='XMLID_1000_'>
									<use xlink:href='#XMLID_975_'/>
								</clipPath>
								<g clip-path='url(#XMLID_1000_)'>
									<g>
										<polygon points='0,0 88,0 88,31 0,31 0,0      ' fill='none'/>
										<path d='M44,15.5' fill='none'/>
									</g>
									<g>
										<polygon points='0,0 83,0 83,31 0,31 0,0      ' fill='#4E4B3F'/>
										<path d='M41.5,15.5' fill='#4E4B3F'/>
									</g>
									<g>
										<g>
											<defs>
												<polygon points='0,30 83,30 83,31 0,31 0,30        ' id='XMLID_977_'/>
											</defs>
											<use xlink:href='#XMLID_977_' fill='#191919'/>
											<clipPath id='XMLID_1001_'>
												<use xlink:href='#XMLID_977_'/>
											</clipPath>
											<g clip-path='url(#XMLID_1001_)'>
												<g>
													<polygon points='0,0 88,0 88,31 0,31 0,0         ' fill='none'/>
													<path d='M44,15.5' fill='none'/>
												</g>
												<g>
													<polygon points='0,0 83,0 83,31 0,31 0,0         ' fill='#191917'/>
													<path d='M41.5,15.5' fill='#191917'/>
												</g>
												<g>
													<polygon points='0.366,0 36.809,0 36.809,31 0.366,31 0.366,0         ' fill='#191919'/>
													<path d='M18.587,15.5' fill='#191919'/>
												</g>
											</g>
										</g>
									</g>
								</g>
							</g>
						</g>
						<g>
							<polygon points='0,0 1,0 1,31 0,31 0,0   ' fill='#CCCCCC'/>
							<path d='M0.5,15.5' fill='#CCCCCC'/>
						</g>
						<g>
							<g>
								<defs>
									<polygon points='2.16,29.005 82.16,29.005 82.16,30.005 2.16,30.005 2.16,29.005     ' id='XMLID_979_'/>
								</defs>
								<use xlink:href='#XMLID_979_' fill='#9E9C9C'/>
								<clipPath id='XMLID_1002_'>
									<use xlink:href='#XMLID_979_'/>
								</clipPath>
								<g clip-path='url(#XMLID_1002_)'>
									<g>
										<polygon points='0,0 88,0 88,31 0,31 0,0      ' fill='none'/>
										<path d='M44,15.5' fill='none'/>
									</g>
									<g>
										<polygon points='0,0 83,0 83,31 0,31 0,0      ' fill='#B39F67'/>
										<path d='M41.5,15.5' fill='#B39F67'/>
									</g>
									<g>
										<polygon points='0.365,0 36.809,0 36.809,31 0.365,31 0.365,0      ' fill='#B5B5B5'/>
										<path d='M18.587,15.5' fill='#B5B5B5'/>
									</g>
									<g>
										<g>
											<defs>
												<polygon points='0,30 83,30 83,31 0,31 0,30        ' id='XMLID_981_'/>
											</defs>
											<use xlink:href='#XMLID_981_' fill='#383838'/>
											<clipPath id='XMLID_1003_'>
												<use xlink:href='#XMLID_981_'/>
											</clipPath>
											<g clip-path='url(#XMLID_1003_)'>
												<g>
													<polygon points='0,0 88,0 88,31 0,31 0,0         ' fill='none'/>
													<path d='M44,15.5' fill='none'/>
												</g>
												<g>
													<polygon points='0,0 83,0 83,31 0,31 0,0         ' fill='#383530'/>
													<path d='M41.5,15.5' fill='#383530'/>
												</g>
												<g>
													<polygon points='0.366,0 36.809,0 36.809,31 0.366,31 0.366,0         ' fill='#383838'/>
													<path d='M18.587,15.5' fill='#383838'/>
												</g>
											</g>
										</g>
									</g>
									<g>
										<g>
											<defs>
												<polygon points='82,0 83,0 83,31 82,31 82,0        ' id='XMLID_983_'/>
											</defs>
											<use xlink:href='#XMLID_983_' fill='#383838'/>
											<clipPath id='XMLID_1004_'>
												<use xlink:href='#XMLID_983_'/>
											</clipPath>
											<g clip-path='url(#XMLID_1004_)'>
												<g>
													<polygon points='0,0 88,0 88,31 0,31 0,0         ' fill='none'/>
													<path d='M44,15.5' fill='none'/>
												</g>
												<g>
													<polygon points='0,0 83,0 83,31 0,31 0,0         ' fill='#383530'/>
													<path d='M41.5,15.5' fill='#383530'/>
												</g>
												<g>
													<g>
														<defs>
															<polygon points='0,30 83,30 83,31 0,31 0,30           ' id='XMLID_985_'/>
														</defs>
														<use xlink:href='#XMLID_985_' fill='#131313'/>
														<clipPath id='XMLID_1005_'>
															<use xlink:href='#XMLID_985_'/>
														</clipPath>
														<g clip-path='url(#XMLID_1005_)'>
															<g>
																<polygon points='0,0 88,0 88,31 0,31 0,0            ' fill='none'/>
																<path d='M44,15.5' fill='none'/>
															</g>
															<g>
																<polygon points='0,0 83,0 83,31 0,31 0,0            ' fill='#131313'/>
																<path d='M41.5,15.5' fill='#131313'/>
															</g>
															<g>
																<polygon points='0.366,0 36.809,0 36.809,31 0.366,31 0.366,0            ' fill='#131313'/>
																<path d='M18.587,15.5' fill='#131313'/>
															</g>
														</g>
													</g>
												</g>
											</g>
										</g>
									</g>
								</g>
							</g>
						</g>
						<g>
							<g>
								<defs>
									<polygon points='80.806,1 81.806,1 81.806,31 80.806,31 80.806,1     ' id='XMLID_987_'/>
								</defs>
								<use xlink:href='#XMLID_987_' fill='#9E9C9C'/>
								<clipPath id='XMLID_1006_'>
									<use xlink:href='#XMLID_987_'/>
								</clipPath>
								<g clip-path='url(#XMLID_1006_)'>
									<g>
										<polygon points='0,0 88,0 88,31 0,31 0,0      ' fill='none'/>
										<path d='M44,15.5' fill='none'/>
									</g>
									<g>
										<polygon points='0,0 83,0 83,31 0,31 0,0      ' fill='#B39F67'/>
										<path d='M41.5,15.5' fill='#B39F67'/>
									</g>
									<g>
										<g>
											<defs>
												<polygon points='0,30 83,30 83,31 0,31 0,30        ' id='XMLID_989_'/>
											</defs>
											<use xlink:href='#XMLID_989_' fill='#383838'/>
											<clipPath id='XMLID_1007_'>
												<use xlink:href='#XMLID_989_'/>
											</clipPath>
											<g clip-path='url(#XMLID_1007_)'>
												<g>
													<polygon points='0,0 88,0 88,31 0,31 0,0         ' fill='none'/>
													<path d='M44,15.5' fill='none'/>
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		<published>2006-11-20T11:50:00Z</published>
		<updated>2006-11-20T11:50:00Z</updated>
	</entry>

-----Original Message-----
From: Antone Roundy [mailto:antone@geckotribe.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 00:50
To: Tse Shing Chi ((Franklin/Whale))
Subject: Re: The "src" attribute of atom:content

On Nov 20, 2006, at 9:56 AM, Tse Shing Chi ((Franklin/Whale)) wrote:
> However, summary is different with alternate text... In some cases,  
> providing summary can be difficult.

Sure, but the question is, where should the burden of handling that  
difficulty be placed?  The "text", "html" and "xhtml" types defined  
by Atom cover the vast majority of today's use cases for content in  
feeds.  In edge cases where the content is in a different format, the  
burden of providing a summary in one of the standard formats has been  
placed on the producer (vs. the alternatives of either requiring the  
consumer to be able to handle arbitrary data formats or leaving open  
the possibility of the consumer having access to neither the content  
nor a summary).

BTW, one point that I think has been missed thus far--atom:summary is  
a "Text construct", so it can only carry the three pre-defined types-- 
not things like application/xhtml+xml.  From the spec:

4.2.13.  The "atom:summary" Element

    The "atom:summary" element is a Text construct that conveys a short
    summary, abstract, or excerpt of an entry.

and:

3.1.1.  The "type" Attribute

    Text constructs MAY have a "type" attribute.  When present, the  
value
    MUST be one of "text", "html", or "xhtml".  If the "type" attribute
    is not provided, Atom Processors MUST behave as though it were
    present with a value of "text".  Unlike the atom:content element
    defined in Section 4.1.3, MIME media types [MIMEREG] MUST NOT be  
used
    as values for the "type" attribute on Text constructs.






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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 17:24:28 +0000
From: Sylvain Hellegouarch <sh@defuze.org>
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Subject: Re: The "src" attribute of atom:content
References: <000601c70be9$88dc4150$9a94c3f0$@com> <20061119161529.GI17418@klangraum> <BAY117-DAV2B5A3D1C94CBCB8E6F50A9FEE0@phx.gbl> <4560922D.1010602@gmail.com> <BAY117-DAV5101B1B8A33EAEBA9920D9FEE0@phx.gbl> <77CA6DB0-88E5-4F67-B091-D73AEE711C29@geckotribe.com> <BAY117-DAV392DB9C839ADE59840EDD9FED0@phx.gbl> <619BB0C6-BF39-49AA-A790-55664553D387@geckotribe.com> <BAY117-DAV1340EB78DB3DB9E3C23CE09FED0@phx.gbl>
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Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) wrote:
> I know that atom:summary can carry the three pre-defined types only. 
> 
> Actually, a problem is still not solved, what should Atom processors do when they do not understand the content in an entry like (B)?

What do you mean by "understand"?

Every use case is listed in section 4.1.3.3 of RFC 4287. You still seem
to confuse processor and application consuming an Atom document.

> 
> On the other hand, atom:content/@src can be replaced by xhtml:object like (A), and there is a good fallback mechanism defined in the HTML/XHTML Specification. Can it prove that atom:content/@src is not necessary?
> 
> Remark: Content in (B) is copied from http://www.w3.org/Icons/valid-svg11-v.svg.
> 

What is the improvement compare to atom:content/@src?

- Sylvain




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Subject: Re: The "src" attribute of atom:content
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There is no "standard" or "recommended" way of handling [B].  User
agents will do whatever they choose to do and users will pick the UA
that does whatever is the most useful.

By way of example, Abdera will detect that the content is a "MEDIA" type
and will provide the mime type and xml content to the application
without attempting to do any further processing.

- James

Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) wrote:
> I know that atom:summary can carry the three pre-defined types only. 
> 
> Actually, a problem is still not solved, what should Atom processors do when they do not understand the content in an entry like (B)?
> 
> On the other hand, atom:content/@src can be replaced by xhtml:object like (A), and there is a good fallback mechanism defined in the HTML/XHTML Specification. Can it prove that atom:content/@src is not necessary?
> 
> Remark: Content in (B) is copied from http://www.w3.org/Icons/valid-svg11-v.svg.
> 
> - Reference -
> 
> A:
> 	<entry>
> 		<title>Example Test</title>
> 		<id>http://www.w3.org/Icons/valid-svg11-v.svg</id>
> 		<content type="xhtml">
> 			<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
> 				<object type="image/svg+xml" data="http://www.w3.org/Icons/valid-svg11-v.svg">
> 				  <!-- alternate text -->
> 				</object>
> 			</div>
> 		</content>
> 		<published>2006-11-20T11:50:00Z</published>
> 		<updated>2006-11-20T11:50:00Z</updated>
> 	</entry>
> 
> B:
> 	<entry>
> 		<title>Example Test</title>
> 		<id>http://www.w3.org/Icons/valid-svg11-v.svg</id>
> 		<content type="image/svg+xml">
> 			<svg xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2000/svg' xml:space='preserve' version='1.1' overflow='visible' xmlns:xlink='http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink' viewBox='0 0 88 31'>
>[snip]




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From: "Tse Shing Chi \(Franklin/Whale\)" <peaceable_whale@hotmail.com>
To: "'Sylvain Hellegouarch'" <sh@defuze.org>
Cc: "'Antone Roundy'" <antone@geckotribe.com>, <atom-syntax@imc.org>
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Subject: RE: The "src" attribute of atom:content
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 01:40:01 +0800
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"Atom processors" here means some applications like aggregators. In fact, I really don't know how to call this type of applications.

"Understand" means that the application can parse and render the content. (Those applications can successfully show a SVG image here are 'understanding' the image/svg+xml media type.)

If xhtml:object can serve the function of atom:content/@src, then atom:content/@src is not necessary. The improvement is that xhtml:object has defined a fallback mechanism. When application cannot load the object, they should load the content inside the object. Refer to 13.3.1 of the HTML 4.01 Specification for details. (http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/objects.html)

Franklin

-----Original Message-----
From: Sylvain Hellegouarch [mailto:sh@defuze.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 01:24
To: Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale)
Cc: 'Antone Roundy'; atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: The "src" attribute of atom:content

Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) wrote:
> I know that atom:summary can carry the three pre-defined types only. 
> 
> Actually, a problem is still not solved, what should Atom processors do when they do not understand the content in an entry like (B)?

What do you mean by "understand"?

Every use case is listed in section 4.1.3.3 of RFC 4287. You still seem
to confuse processor and application consuming an Atom document.

> 
> On the other hand, atom:content/@src can be replaced by xhtml:object like (A), and there is a good fallback mechanism defined in the HTML/XHTML Specification. Can it prove that atom:content/@src is not necessary?
> 
> Remark: Content in (B) is copied from http://www.w3.org/Icons/valid-svg11-v.svg.
> 

What is the improvement compare to atom:content/@src?

- Sylvain





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From: Henri Sivonen <hsivonen@iki.fi>
Subject: Re: Forward Compatibility
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 23:28:03 +0200
To: Tse Shing Chi ((Franklin/Whale)) <peaceable_whale@hotmail.com>
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On Nov 20, 2006, at 17:47, Tse Shing Chi ((Franklin/Whale)) wrote:

>> I understand your not wanting to put a complete XHTML 2.0 document
>> inside atom:content or atom:summary, but since DIV isn't supposed to
>> be the root element of an XHTML 2.0 document, omitting the rest of
>> the document violates at least the "spirit" of the Atom spec...though
>> we didn't use normative language where it says "normally" to actually
>> prohibit it.
>
> But div is not the root element of XHTML 1.x as well.

It isn't, but XHTML 1.x as type='xhtml' is a special case in Atom, so  
Atom processors need to know how to construct a full XHTML 1.x  
document from the Atom entry if they co-operate with an XHTML 1.x  
processing module that wants to see full documents.

Using an XHTML 1.x fragment with type='application/xhtml+xml' would  
not be proper.

-- 
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen@iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/





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This draft defines the dir attribute as part of the Atom namespace and
adds it to the atomCommonsAttributes pattern.  All other details remain
the same.

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-bidi-01.txt

Example:

  <feed xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" dir="rtl">
    ...
  </feed>

As always, comments welcome and encouraged.

- James




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On 21/11/06 4:03 AM, "Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale)"
<peaceable_whale@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Actually, a problem is still not solved, what should Atom processors do when
> they do not understand the content in an entry like (B)?
> 
> On the other hand, atom:content/@src can be replaced by xhtml:object like (A),
> and there is a good fallback mechanism defined in the HTML/XHTML
> Specification. Can it prove that atom:content/@src is not necessary?

1) Content@src does facilitate reference to content which cannot be
represented within XML ... which includes any text containing control
characters, for example (e.g. ASCII art).

2) It also makes sense for content whose existence isn't normal to be
encapsulated, such as v-cards or v-events. I can easily imagine a feed of
v-events as the content.

3) Using link@rel='alternate' instead of content@src loses the facility to
say "*this* is the real thing, the others are alternative formats (which may
have lost something in translation)".

4) One can't also just stuff the v-event into an enclosure instead, because
how then do you indicate which is the actual content object, and any other
enclosures (including additional v-event objects).

e.  




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From: "Tse Shing Chi \(Franklin/Whale\)" <peaceable_whale@hotmail.com>
To: "'Atom Syntax'" <atom-syntax@imc.org>
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Subject: RE: The "src" attribute of atom:content
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 10:38:47 +0800
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Should a "charset" attribute be added? The remote content's encoding may not be the same as the feed's.

Franklin

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Eric Scheid
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 08:57
To: Atom Syntax
Subject: Re: The "src" attribute of atom:content


On 21/11/06 4:03 AM, "Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale)"
<peaceable_whale@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Actually, a problem is still not solved, what should Atom processors do when
> they do not understand the content in an entry like (B)?
> 
> On the other hand, atom:content/@src can be replaced by xhtml:object like (A),
> and there is a good fallback mechanism defined in the HTML/XHTML
> Specification. Can it prove that atom:content/@src is not necessary?

1) Content@src does facilitate reference to content which cannot be
represented within XML ... which includes any text containing control
characters, for example (e.g. ASCII art).

2) It also makes sense for content whose existence isn't normal to be
encapsulated, such as v-cards or v-events. I can easily imagine a feed of
v-events as the content.

3) Using link@rel='alternate' instead of content@src loses the facility to
say "*this* is the real thing, the others are alternative formats (which may
have lost something in translation)".

4) One can't also just stuff the v-event into an enclosure instead, because
how then do you indicate which is the actual content object, and any other
enclosures (including additional v-event objects).

e.  






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Subject: Re: The "src" attribute of atom:content
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On 21/11/06 1:38 PM, "Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale)"
<peaceable_whale@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Should a "charset" attribute be added? The remote content's encoding may not
> be the same as the feed's.

It could only be advisory in nature, and it wouldn't be particularly useful
(if at all) for selective dispatching (unlike @type on atom:content and
atom:link) ... so why bother?

e.




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From: "Tse Shing Chi \(Franklin/Whale\)" <peaceable_whale@hotmail.com>
To: "'Atom Syntax'" <atom-syntax@imc.org>
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Subject: RE: The "src" attribute of atom:content
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In fact, I was just considering something like these: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-embedding.html#adef_embedding_encoding and http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/links.html#adef-charset.

It may be "charset" or "encoding".

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Eric Scheid
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 14:48
To: Atom Syntax
Subject: Re: The "src" attribute of atom:content


On 21/11/06 1:38 PM, "Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale)"
<peaceable_whale@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Should a "charset" attribute be added? The remote content's encoding may not
> be the same as the feed's.

It could only be advisory in nature, and it wouldn't be particularly useful
(if at all) for selective dispatching (unlike @type on atom:content and
atom:link) ... so why bother?

e.






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* Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) <peaceable_whale@hotmail.com> [2006-11-2=
0 11:15]:
> That's the problem. Since there is no defined fallback
> mechanism, the actual mechanism varies from application to
> application. Authors of Atom feeds cannot expect what feed
> readers will do, and they are not given a chance to provide
> alternate content in a different format.

I agree, after all the discussion, that this an aspect of Atom
that could have been better. I doubt anyone forsaw any need for
this at the time.

For the time being, you=E2=80=99ll have to make do with using
atom:summary as alternative text.

Regards,
--=20
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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* James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> [2006-11-19 18:35]:
> The spec can be changed, it's just not a great idea to do so
> until we get a critical mass of issues that can't seem to be
> adequately worked around.

Is anyone keeping a Possible Errata document or some such?
I recall several other discussions in the time since Atom was
submitted for approval where possibly legitimate issues were
raised, which ended inconclusively. Has anyone kept track?

Regards,
-- 
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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Pace to put autodiscovery back in play [1]

Resubmit the Autodiscovery Draft[2] with no changes and submit for
consideration as a Proposed Standard.

[1] http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceResurrectAutodiscovery
[2] http://ietfreport.isoc.org/idref/draft-ietf-atompub-autodiscovery/

- James




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From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
Subject: Re: PaceResurrectAutodiscovery
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 15:33:30 -0800
To: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
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On cursory glance, it seems like a good idea.

Henry

On 21 Nov 2006, at 15:15, James M Snell wrote:

>
> Pace to put autodiscovery back in play [1]
>
> Resubmit the Autodiscovery Draft[2] with no changes and submit for
> consideration as a Proposed Standard.
>
> [1] http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceResurrectAutodiscovery
> [2] http://ietfreport.isoc.org/idref/draft-ietf-atompub-autodiscovery/
>
> - James




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On 22/11/06 10:15 AM, "James M Snell" <jasnell@gmail.com> wrote:

> Resubmit the Autodiscovery Draft[2] with no changes and submit for
> consideration as a Proposed Standard.

I'd rather it be updated to take into consideration that Atom has introduced
the concept of entry documents alongside feed documents, and thus a link to
a "application/xml+atom" document with a relationship attribute value of
"alternate" is now ambiguous.

I suggest a relationship value of "feed", to use when pointing to a feed.
Note that multiple values for @rel are still possible with html's link (e.g.
@rel="feed alternate").

This also covers the case of a html page containing articles {A,B,C} linking
to a feed which, by now, contains {X,Y,Z}, which is hardly an "alternate
representation" of the same content.

e.




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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 16:22:03 -0800
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My preference would be to maintain the de facto standard that is already
in use by countless sites.  I'm just as annoyed as you are about the
ambiguity in the mime type but in this case I think what's currently
deployed trumps what's technically correct.

- James

Eric Scheid wrote:
> On 22/11/06 10:15 AM, "James M Snell" <jasnell@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Resubmit the Autodiscovery Draft[2] with no changes and submit for
>> consideration as a Proposed Standard.
> 
> I'd rather it be updated to take into consideration that Atom has introduced
> the concept of entry documents alongside feed documents, and thus a link to
> a "application/xml+atom" document with a relationship attribute value of
> "alternate" is now ambiguous.
> 
> I suggest a relationship value of "feed", to use when pointing to a feed.
> Note that multiple values for @rel are still possible with html's link (e.g.
> @rel="feed alternate").
> 
> This also covers the case of a html page containing articles {A,B,C} linking
> to a feed which, by now, contains {X,Y,Z}, which is hardly an "alternate
> representation" of the same content.
> 
> e.
> 
> 




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From: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de>
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Subject: Re: PaceResurrectAutodiscovery
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* Eric Scheid <eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au> [2006-11-22 01:20]:
> I suggest a relationship value of "feed", to use when pointing
> to a feed. Note that multiple values for @rel are still
> possible with html's link (e.g. @rel=3D"feed alternate").

-1 to any changes that would be incompatible to existing dead
draft, at any time.

-1 also to changing the draft at all prior to resurrection. We
can see whether we want any new language in there once we have it
back in the process.

+0 to including *additional* provisions in the draft before
submitting it for approval, because I do agree it=E2=80=99s incomplete.

I=E2=80=99d like to see the current status quo documented. There are
millions of pages out there already implementing autodiscovery
according to the dead draft, and lots of code to process them,
but there is no official documentation for any of this. There
should be a spec for it.

Regards,
--=20
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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On 22/11/06 12:23 PM, "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de> wrote:

> -1 to any changes that would be incompatible to existing dead
> draft, at any time.

agree, I too prefer no incompatibilities, and I don't see what I proposed=
 as
being incompatible (slap me if I'm wrong).

> -1 also to changing the draft at all prior to resurrection. We
> can see whether we want any new language in there once we have it
> back in the process.

agree, although this is just a matter of process. So, +1 to resurrect, -1=
 to
"and submit for consideration as a Proposed Standard."

> +0 to including *additional* provisions in the draft before
> submitting it for approval, because I do agree it=B9s incomplete.

agree.

e.





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On 22/11/06 11:22 AM, "James M Snell" <jasnell@gmail.com> wrote:

> My preference would be to maintain the de facto standard that is already
> in use by countless sites.  I'm just as annoyed as you are about the
> ambiguity in the mime type but in this case I think what's currently
> deployed trumps what's technically correct.

That's like saying candles and oil lamps trump Mr. Edison's delightful
invention. Sure, when he came up with the idea there were not many adopters,
but just look around today.

Maybe a robust de facto standard will arise. Or maybe a hodge-podge of
incompatible almost-solutions get deployed. How many varieties of (e.g.) RSS
are there again?

We're in a good position, in this WG, to suggest a future standard. We've
delved deeply into the intricacies, we've examined a wide range of use
cases.

Speaking of which ... there's another use case to consider. Since Atom has
promoted interest in using feed documents in an archival manner, it is
entirely reasonable to use @rel="alternate" to point to an archive feed
document which contains the *same* content as the referring page, as opposed
to referring to a feed document which has the "most recent" additions from
the same source as where the contents of the current page came from. (what a
mouthful!)

The archival feed document is truly the "alternate" for the html page
"entries of october 2006", while the subscription feed document for the same
source (and containing entries mostly from November 2006) would be the
"feed" document.

Sure, when it comes to turning back the tide to *deprecate* the use of
@rel=alternate for subscription feeds in lieu of archival feed documents,
I'm fully in agreement that current practice trumps that idea.

The other idea though of using "feed" to indicate the resource one would
subscribe to so as to be _fed_ more of the same content ... that doesn't
conflict with current practice and we can lay the ground work for future
adoption.

e.




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From: Sylvain Hellegouarch <sh@defuze.org>
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Hi folks,

Quick question regarding the atom:author element in a member resource.

Say I POST an atom:entry to a collection URI, this entry does not have
an atom:author (which could be considered as not valid but that's not
the question here), now say that my app server does not have any
information as to what value to set when adding the atom:author element
to the member, do you think it'd be better to put an empty atom:name or
to put a dummy value such as 'anonymous' or 'n/a'?

I'm asking because I try to make sure that whatever the input is the
member I create are respectful of section 4.1.2 of RFC 4287 and I can't
decide which way to go when some information are missing from the context.

Any best practices from you guys?

Thanks,
- Sylvain




From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 22 07:08:11 2006
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From: "Tse Shing Chi \(Franklin/Whale\)" <peaceable_whale@hotmail.com>
To: "'Sylvain Hellegouarch'" <sh@defuze.org>
Cc: "'atom-protocol'" <atom-protocol@imc.org>,
        "'atom-syntax'" <atom-syntax@imc.org>
References: <4564305A.3000909@defuze.org>
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Subject: RE: Author element best practice
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 19:43:07 +0800
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Section 4.2.1 of RFC 4287:

   If an atom:entry element does not contain atom:author elements, then
   the atom:author elements of the contained atom:source element are
   considered to apply.  In an Atom Feed Document, the atom:author
   elements of the containing atom:feed element are considered to apply
   to the entry if there are no atom:author elements in the locations
   described above.

In case there isn't any author, "anonymous" seems to be a good choice. Anyway, it is just what my thought.

Franklin

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Sylvain Hellegouarch
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 19:11
To: atom-protocol; atom-syntax
Subject: Author element best practice


Hi folks,

Quick question regarding the atom:author element in a member resource.

Say I POST an atom:entry to a collection URI, this entry does not have
an atom:author (which could be considered as not valid but that's not
the question here), now say that my app server does not have any
information as to what value to set when adding the atom:author element
to the member, do you think it'd be better to put an empty atom:name or
to put a dummy value such as 'anonymous' or 'n/a'?

I'm asking because I try to make sure that whatever the input is the
member I create are respectful of section 4.1.2 of RFC 4287 and I can't
decide which way to go when some information are missing from the context.

Any best practices from you guys?

Thanks,
- Sylvain






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Subject: RE: The "src" attribute of atom:content
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 22:02:28 +0800
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There is an unexpected reply located in http://www.imc.org/atom-protocol/=
mail-archive/msg07722.html.

Quote:

<atom:content type=3D"image/svg+xml">...</atom:content>
  I don't know how to display such a content within a widget, however
I know there is some program in the "registry" (Windows Registry,
Freedesktop's shared MIME database, OS X configuration, etc.) which is
able to open it; so I whot the summary (if any) and provide "Open
with..." and "Save as..." buttons. I couldn't do that with an
xhtml:object embeded in an <atom:content type=3D"xhtml"/> (or eventually
type=3D"html").

It is almost what I want aggregators to do actually. However, web-based a=
ggregators may have difficulties in handling it.

Currently, the way to provide alternate format or text... seems to be the=
 followings.

For examples:

<summary type=3D"xhtml">
  <div xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
    <object type=3D"image/svg+xml" data=3D"http://www.w3.org/Icons/valid-=
svg11-v.svg">
      <!-- alternate format, alternate text -->
      <img src=3D"http://www.w3.org/Icons/valid-svg11.png" alt=3D"Valid S=
VG 1.1" />
    </object>
  </div>
</summary>
<content type=3D"image/svg+xml" src=3D"http://www.w3.org/Icons/valid-svg1=
1-v.svg" />

<summary type=3D"xhtml">
  <div xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
    <object type=3D"application/pdf" data=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11=
/xhtml11.pdf">
      <!-- alternate format -->
      <object type=3D"text/html" data=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/">
        <!-- alternate text -->
        <p>...</p>
      </object>
    </object>
  </div>
</summary>
<content type=3D"application/pdf" src=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/xht=
ml11.pdf" />

Anyway, no one can ensure that aggregators will display the summary when =
they are able to show the content. Also, I would like to repeat again, my=
 examples are not the correct use of summary.

If you have any comment, please reply to atom-syntax@imc.org

Franklin

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.o=
rg] On Behalf Of A. Pagaltzis
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 04:07
To: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: The "src" attribute of atom:content


* Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) <peaceable_whale@hotmail.com> [2006-11-2=
0 11:15]:
> That's the problem. Since there is no defined fallback
> mechanism, the actual mechanism varies from application to
> application. Authors of Atom feeds cannot expect what feed
> readers will do, and they are not given a chance to provide
> alternate content in a different format.

I agree, after all the discussion, that this an aspect of Atom
that could have been better. I doubt anyone forsaw any need for
this at the time.

For the time being, you=E2=80=99ll have to make do with using
atom:summary as alternative text.

Regards,
--=20
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>






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From: "Tse Shing Chi \(Franklin/Whale\)" <peaceable_whale@hotmail.com>
To: <atom-syntax@imc.org>
References: <20061119161529.GI17418@klangraum> <BAY117-DAV2B5A3D1C94CBCB8E6F50A9FEE0@phx.gbl> <4560922D.1010602@gmail.com> <000001c70c03$989bc8d0$c9d35a70$@com> <20061120053316.GJ17418@klangraum> <BAY117-DAV8C5C48D95A5C4D4887E039FED0@phx.gbl> <456160FE.60003@defuze.org> <BAY117-DAV1F57156EB93F6BF5190FF9FED0@phx.gbl> <45616CBA.1000205@defuze.org> <BAY117-DAV17969CAE06E6A9E7EC1C989FED0@phx.gbl> <20061121200650.GH17418@klangraum> <BAY117-DAV16F15308BEE7552094B91A9FE30@phx.gbl>
In-Reply-To: <BAY117-DAV16F15308BEE7552094B91A9FE30@phx.gbl>
Subject: RE: The "src" attribute of atom:content
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 22:07:43 +0800
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Correction:

"when they are NOT able to show the content"

-----Original Message-----
From: Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) [mailto:peaceable_whale@hotmail.com]=
=20
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 22:02
To: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: RE: The "src" attribute of atom:content

There is an unexpected reply located in http://www.imc.org/atom-protocol/=
mail-archive/msg07722.html.

Quote:

<atom:content type=3D"image/svg+xml">...</atom:content>
  I don't know how to display such a content within a widget, however
I know there is some program in the "registry" (Windows Registry,
Freedesktop's shared MIME database, OS X configuration, etc.) which is
able to open it; so I whot the summary (if any) and provide "Open
with..." and "Save as..." buttons. I couldn't do that with an
xhtml:object embeded in an <atom:content type=3D"xhtml"/> (or eventually
type=3D"html").

It is almost what I want aggregators to do actually. However, web-based a=
ggregators may have difficulties in handling it.

Currently, the way to provide alternate format or text... seems to be the=
 followings.

For examples:

<summary type=3D"xhtml">
  <div xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
    <object type=3D"image/svg+xml" data=3D"http://www.w3.org/Icons/valid-=
svg11-v.svg">
      <!-- alternate format, alternate text -->
      <img src=3D"http://www.w3.org/Icons/valid-svg11.png" alt=3D"Valid S=
VG 1.1" />
    </object>
  </div>
</summary>
<content type=3D"image/svg+xml" src=3D"http://www.w3.org/Icons/valid-svg1=
1-v.svg" />

<summary type=3D"xhtml">
  <div xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
    <object type=3D"application/pdf" data=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11=
/xhtml11.pdf">
      <!-- alternate format -->
      <object type=3D"text/html" data=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/">
        <!-- alternate text -->
        <p>...</p>
      </object>
    </object>
  </div>
</summary>
<content type=3D"application/pdf" src=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/xht=
ml11.pdf" />

Anyway, no one can ensure that aggregators will display the summary when =
they are able to show the content. Also, I would like to repeat again, my=
 examples are not the correct use of summary.

If you have any comment, please reply to atom-syntax@imc.org

Franklin

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.o=
rg] On Behalf Of A. Pagaltzis
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 04:07
To: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: The "src" attribute of atom:content


* Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) <peaceable_whale@hotmail.com> [2006-11-2=
0 11:15]:
> That's the problem. Since there is no defined fallback
> mechanism, the actual mechanism varies from application to
> application. Authors of Atom feeds cannot expect what feed
> readers will do, and they are not given a chance to provide
> alternate content in a different format.

I agree, after all the discussion, that this an aspect of Atom
that could have been better. I doubt anyone forsaw any need for
this at the time.

For the time being, you=E2=80=99ll have to make do with using
atom:summary as alternative text.

Regards,
--=20
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>








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Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 16:54:30 +0100
From: "Thomas Broyer" <t.broyer@gmail.com>
To: Atom-Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: Re: The "src" attribute of atom:content
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2006/11/22, Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale):
>
> There is an unexpected reply located in
> http://www.imc.org/atom-protocol/mail-archive/msg07722.html.

Oops, sorry!
(double-checked, this time, I answer to atom-syntax ;-) )

> Quote:
>
> <atom:content type="image/svg+xml">...</atom:content>
>   I don't know how to display such a content within a widget, however
> I know there is some program in the "registry" (Windows Registry,
> Freedesktop's shared MIME database, OS X configuration, etc.) which is
> able to open it; so I whot the summary (if any) and provide "Open
> with..." and "Save as..." buttons. I couldn't do that with an
> xhtml:object embeded in an <atom:content type="xhtml"/> (or eventually
> type="html").
>
> It is almost what I want aggregators to do actually. However, web-based
> aggregators may have difficulties in handling it.

They could "display" the summary and provide a "Download the entry
content" link. If they know how to "display" the content, then they
can generate HTML code (an xhtml:object) with fallback to the summary:
<object data="where/is/stored/the/entry/content" type="image/svg+xml">
   <p>If you see this message, it generally means your browser does
not know how to display content of type "image/svg+xml". However, the
entry publisher has provided this summary for you to read:</p>
   <p>...entry's summary...</p>
</object>
<p><a href="where/is/stored/the/entry/content"
hreftype="image/svg+xml">Download the entry content...</a></p>

> Currently, the way to provide alternate format or text... seems to be the followings.

I personnaly have no problem with a summary acting as an alternate
text (to display if the content can't be): hey, there's a valid reason
why summary must be provided if the content is out-of-line or
base64-encoded ;-)
Alternate "formats" should be linked to using <link rel="alternate"
href="..." />

> Anyway, no one can ensure that aggregators will display the summary
> when they are [NOT] able to show the content.

Right, but I hope and expect those aggregators to either be updated or
tend to disappear (because people will switch to "better"
aggregators).

-- 
Thomas Broyer




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Subject: RE: The "src" attribute of atom:content
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 01:03:43 +0800
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> They could "display" the summary and provide a "Download the entry
> content" link. If they know how to "display" the content, then they
> can generate HTML code (an xhtml:object) with fallback to the summary:
> <object data="where/is/stored/the/entry/content" type="image/svg+xml">
>    <p>If you see this message, it generally means your browser does
> not know how to display content of type "image/svg+xml". However, the
> entry publisher has provided this summary for you to read:</p>
>    <p>...entry's summary...</p>
> </object>
> <p><a href="where/is/stored/the/entry/content"
> hreftype="image/svg+xml">Download the entry content...</a></p>

Good idea.

> Alternate "formats" should be linked to using <link rel="alternate"
> href="..." />

Agreed, but it requires the supports from aggregators since special treatment is needed when atom:content/@src is present.

Also, there can only be 1 alt. line. 

      atom:entry elements MUST NOT contain more than one atom:link
      element with a rel attribute value of "alternate" that has the
      same combination of type and hreflang attribute values.

Franklin

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Broyer
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 23:55
To: Atom-Syntax
Subject: Re: The "src" attribute of atom:content


2006/11/22, Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale):
>
> There is an unexpected reply located in
> http://www.imc.org/atom-protocol/mail-archive/msg07722.html.

Oops, sorry!
(double-checked, this time, I answer to atom-syntax ;-) )

> Quote:
>
> <atom:content type="image/svg+xml">...</atom:content>
>   I don't know how to display such a content within a widget, however
> I know there is some program in the "registry" (Windows Registry,
> Freedesktop's shared MIME database, OS X configuration, etc.) which is
> able to open it; so I whot the summary (if any) and provide "Open
> with..." and "Save as..." buttons. I couldn't do that with an
> xhtml:object embeded in an <atom:content type="xhtml"/> (or eventually
> type="html").
>
> It is almost what I want aggregators to do actually. However, web-based
> aggregators may have difficulties in handling it.

They could "display" the summary and provide a "Download the entry
content" link. If they know how to "display" the content, then they
can generate HTML code (an xhtml:object) with fallback to the summary:
<object data="where/is/stored/the/entry/content" type="image/svg+xml">
   <p>If you see this message, it generally means your browser does
not know how to display content of type "image/svg+xml". However, the
entry publisher has provided this summary for you to read:</p>
   <p>...entry's summary...</p>
</object>
<p><a href="where/is/stored/the/entry/content"
hreftype="image/svg+xml">Download the entry content...</a></p>

> Currently, the way to provide alternate format or text... seems to be the followings.

I personnaly have no problem with a summary acting as an alternate
text (to display if the content can't be): hey, there's a valid reason
why summary must be provided if the content is out-of-line or
base64-encoded ;-)
Alternate "formats" should be linked to using <link rel="alternate"
href="..." />

> Anyway, no one can ensure that aggregators will display the summary
> when they are [NOT] able to show the content.

Right, but I hope and expect those aggregators to either be updated or
tend to disappear (because people will switch to "better"
aggregators).

-- 
Thomas Broyer






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Subject: Re: Author element best practice
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* Sylvain Hellegouarch <sh@defuze.org> [2006-11-22 12:25]:
> do you think it'd be better to put an empty atom:name or to put
> a dummy value such as 'anonymous' or 'n/a'?

Ugh. Dummy values are nasty, perverse and evil. Someone *will*
eventually suffer miserably if you pollute your data like that.

Don=E2=80=99t you have any identifying information about who is POSTing
the entry? That=E2=80=99s where I=E2=80=99d look to.

Regards,
--=20
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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Subject: Re: Author element best practice
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On Nov 22, 2006, at 3:11 AM, Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote:

> Say I POST an atom:entry to a collection URI, this entry does not have
> an atom:author

If I were implementing the server, in this scenario I'd reject the  
post with an error message.  It's hard for me to see a scenario where  
the author info isn't already known and not providing it is still  
OK.  (In fact, it's hard for me to imagine a scenario in which the  
author info isn't already known, period.)  -Tim

> (which could be considered as not valid but that's not
> the question here), now say that my app server does not have any
> information as to what value to set when adding the atom:author  
> element
> to the member, do you think it'd be better to put an empty  
> atom:name or
> to put a dummy value such as 'anonymous' or 'n/a'?
>
> I'm asking because I try to make sure that whatever the input is the
> member I create are respectful of section 4.1.2 of RFC 4287 and I  
> can't
> decide which way to go when some information are missing from the  
> context.
>
> Any best practices from you guys?
>
> Thanks,
> - Sylvain
>




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From: Sylvain Hellegouarch <sh@defuze.org>
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Subject: Re: Author element best practice
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Tim Bray wrote:
> 
> On Nov 22, 2006, at 3:11 AM, Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote:
> 
>> Say I POST an atom:entry to a collection URI, this entry does not have
>> an atom:author
> 
> If I were implementing the server, in this scenario I'd reject the post
> with an error message.  It's hard for me to see a scenario where the
> author info isn't already known and not providing it is still OK.  (In
> fact, it's hard for me to imagine a scenario in which the author info
> isn't already known, period.)  -Tim

Right.
If we stretch this idea a little then, how would people feel about
stating in the draft that the server MAY (SHOULD?) reject an Atom entry
which would be invalid as per RFC 4287 ?

I think at least a MAY would give some weigh to implementors who wish to
be really strict regarding the input the allow.

- Sylvain




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Subject: Re: Author element best practice
References: <4564305A.3000909@defuze.org> <7EF80F90-22E6-4D74-B2B8-C7E7416B1969@sun.com> <4564D426.7000502@defuze.org>
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Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote:
> Tim Bray wrote:
>   
>> On Nov 22, 2006, at 3:11 AM, Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> Say I POST an atom:entry to a collection URI, this entry does not have
>>> an atom:author
>>>       
>> If I were implementing the server, in this scenario I'd reject the post
>> with an error message.  It's hard for me to see a scenario where the
>> author info isn't already known and not providing it is still OK.  (In
>> fact, it's hard for me to imagine a scenario in which the author info
>> isn't already known, period.)  -Tim
>>     
Scenario:  I have an opaque token (an encrypted cookie set on a browser, 
say) which carries the currently authenticated user's name.  I'm 
Javascript code that's running without the ability to decrypt the 
cookie, but I'm able to POST an entry to the server and have it do the 
correct thing.  Even if I specified something in the Author field, the 
server is just going to override it with the more authoritative 
encrypted cookie value.

We have actually run into this type of problem (in other situations) and 
had to modify the server to set the user name in a plain text cookie 
purely so Javascript could see it and use it.  This may not be possible 
in all situations.

I think the spirit of RFC 4287 is that readers of feeds should be able 
to rely on a standard way to find author information.  I don't think 
that speaks to this case.  I do think it'd be perfectly reasonable to 
say that a server which gets an empty author, and which cannot infer 
enough to create a valid Atom entry, should reject the entry.
-John


--------------030002000506030400070107
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid4564D426.7000502@defuze.org" type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">Tim Bray wrote:
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">On Nov 22, 2006, at 3:11 AM, Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote:

    </pre>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Say I POST an atom:entry to a collection URI, this entry does not have
an atom:author
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre wrap="">If I were implementing the server, in this scenario I'd reject the post
with an error message.  It's hard for me to see a scenario where the
author info isn't already known and not providing it is still OK.  (In
fact, it's hard for me to imagine a scenario in which the author info
isn't already known, period.)  -Tim
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
</blockquote>
Scenario:&nbsp; I have an opaque token (an encrypted cookie set on a
browser, say) which carries the currently authenticated user's name.&nbsp;
I'm Javascript code that's running without the ability to decrypt the
cookie, but I'm able to POST an entry to the server and have it do the
correct thing.&nbsp; Even if I specified something in the Author field, the
server is just going to override it with the more authoritative
encrypted cookie value.<br>
<br>
We have actually run into this type of problem (in other situations)
and had to modify the server to set the user name in a plain text
cookie purely so Javascript could see it and use it.&nbsp; This may not be
possible in all situations.<br>
<br>
I think the spirit of RFC 4287 is that readers of feeds should be able
to rely on a standard way to find author information.&nbsp; I don't think
that speaks to this case.&nbsp; I do think it'd be perfectly reasonable to
say that a server which gets an empty author, and which cannot infer
enough to create a valid Atom entry, should reject the entry.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid4564D426.7000502@defuze.org" type="cite">
  <pre wrap=""><!----></pre>
</blockquote>
-John<br>
<br>
</body>
</html>

--------------030002000506030400070107--




From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 22 19:47:49 2006
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I agree. It would be useful to work on placing a little bit more  
weight on the rel relation rather than putting everything on the mime  
type. After all if every link is going to be an "alternate" relation,  
then what was the point of the rel="..." attribute? We might as well  
have stuck with simple <a href=""> anchors.

I think there is still time to put forward a number of simple  
relations such as "feed", "entry" or even "service" or "collection".  
This could be really useful distinctions.

Henry

On 21 Nov 2006, at 20:46, Eric Scheid wrote:

>
> We're in a good position, in this WG, to suggest a future standard.  
> We've
> delved deeply into the intricacies, we've examined a wide range of use
> cases.
>
> Speaking of which ... there's another use case to consider. Since  
> Atom has
> promoted interest in using feed documents in an archival manner, it is
> entirely reasonable to use @rel="alternate" to point to an archive  
> feed
> document which contains the *same* content as the referring page,  
> as opposed
> to referring to a feed document which has the "most recent"  
> additions from
> the same source as where the contents of the current page came  
> from. (what a
> mouthful!)




From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Nov 22 21:42:30 2006
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James M Snell wrote:
> IOW, using the XHTML2 div as the child is compliant in a strictly sense
> but should be avoided because it will likely cause problems.
>   

An XHTML2 div is not compliant. The normative reference is to XHTML 
Modularization, and the accompanying XHTML1 definitions and namespace. 
In practice, this requirement is somewhat malleable, since XHTML's DTD 
requires that all elements reside in the default namespace (a flaw in 
XHTML), and XHTML Modularization makes some other universally-ignored 
requirements.

XHTML2's namespace is different, though there is an open issue to change 
to the same namespace that XHTML1 uses. Even if the namespace were the 
same, Atom processors are not required expected to understand or comply 
with any XHTML[2] markup.

In other words, Atom processors will pick up (X)HTML features as they 
see fit. The spec is quite specific on this point (using the markup is a 
MAY). In practice, (X)HTML support and security varies widely.

-Rob




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From: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de>
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Subject: Re: Author element best practice
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* Sylvain Hellegouarch <sh@defuze.org> [2006-11-23 00:00]:
> how would people feel about stating in the draft that the
> server MAY (SHOULD?) reject an Atom entry which would be
> invalid as per RFC 4287 ?

+0 to MAY. I'm not sure it needs to be stated explicitly. It
seems obviously implied by the APP axiom that the server is
ultimately in control.

But -1 to SHOULD. If the server thinks it has enough data to
flesh out an incomplete entry so that it is valid, it should be
free to do as it pleases.

Regards,
-- 
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 08:18:09 -0800
From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
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FWIW, with the permission of the WG chairs and the previous editor, I
just resubmitted the atom discovery draft as an individual submission.
Regardless of how things might have unfolded previously, the spec is
open for discussion; however, I only intend to make changes that have a
clear consensus.  I don't have a problem trying to figure out how rss
can be incorporated so I invite anyone who is interested to please
participate in the discussion on the atom-syntax list.

- James

James Holderness wrote:
> 
> 
> Sam Ruby wrote:
>> That particular specification has been surprisingly uncontroversial.
> 
> You would think, but have you looked at that thread I mentioned from
> earlier
> this year [1]? Or the one from May of last year [2]? The current discussion
> is starting out in much the same way. They have a very well written draft
> spec, that has been widely implemented, and yet they still can't agree to
> just publish the damn thing. I guess it's one of those bikeshed issues.
> 
>> The only issue I can imagine that could come up is that
>> application/rss+xml is currently unregistered, and potentially
>> unregisterable.
> 
> I didn't look very hard, but I couldn't find any significant objections.
> The
> best I could come up with was this statement from Phil Ringnalda: "It's
> only
> Atom-only in that it doesn't attempt to dictate things outside the WG's
> charter" [3]. I don't think that rules out the Atom WG and the RSS Board
> cooperating in some way.
> 
> However, I don't want to wait for the Atom WG to finish arguing about it
> before we do anything. I think we should go ahead with what we've got for
> now. If and when they get their act together we can see about cooperating,
> but at least we can get something up onto the website in the meantime that
> will be of immediate benefit to users.
> 
> Regards
> James
> 
> [1] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg17713.html
> <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg17713.html>
> [2] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg14635.html
> <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg14635.html>
> [3] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg14652.html
> <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg14652.html>
> 
> __._,_.___
> Messages in this topic
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-public/message/1086;_ylc=X3oDMTM1Z2U1c21oBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE3MDYxMjcyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjAzMDM5MARtc2dJZAMxMDk2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTE2NDI3ODAxMAR0cGNJZAMxMDg2>
> (11) Reply (via web post)
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-public/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxZDMwa3JvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE3MDYxMjcyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjAzMDM5MARtc2dJZAMxMDk2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTE2NDI3ODAxMA--?act=reply&messageNum=1096>
> | Start a new topic
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-public/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJmOXE5anZxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE3MDYxMjcyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjAzMDM5MARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzExNjQyNzgwMTA->
> 
> Messages
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-public/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJmM285dGp1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE3MDYxMjcyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjAzMDM5MARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNtc2dzBHN0aW1lAzExNjQyNzgwMTA->
> | Polls
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-public/polls;_ylc=X3oDMTJnZGlxaTZvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE3MDYxMjcyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjAzMDM5MARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNwb2xscwRzdGltZQMxMTY0Mjc4MDEw>
> 
> Yahoo! Groups
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlYjF0NjVrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE3MDYxMjcyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjAzMDM5MARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNnZnAEc3RpbWUDMTE2NDI3ODAxMA-->
> 
> Change settings via the Web
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-public/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJnMGdubGhqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE3MDYxMjcyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjAzMDM5MARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNzdG5ncwRzdGltZQMxMTY0Mjc4MDEw>
> (Yahoo! ID required)
> Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest
> <mailto:rss-public-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email Delivery:
> Digest> | Switch format to Traditional
> <mailto:rss-public-traditional@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change Delivery
> Format: Traditional>
> Visit Your Group
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-public;_ylc=X3oDMTJlYXAxa2NwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE3MDYxMjcyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjAzMDM5MARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNocGYEc3RpbWUDMTE2NDI3ODAxMA-->
> | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> |
> Unsubscribe <mailto:rss-public-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=>
> Recent Activity
> 
>     *
>        8
>       New Members
>       <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-public/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJnaDFjbWQwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE3MDYxMjcyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjAzMDM5MARzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2bWJycwRzdGltZQMxMTY0Mjc4MDEw>
> 
> Visit Your Group
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-public;_ylc=X3oDMTJmMW9rcjRsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE3MDYxMjcyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjAzMDM5MARzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzExNjQyNzgwMTA->
> 
> SPONSORED LINKS
> 
>     * Xml format
>       <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJkM20xcDVjBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzEEZ3JwSWQDMTcwNjEyNzIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA2MDMwMzkwBHNlYwNzbG1vZARzdGltZQMxMTY0Mjc4MDEx?t=ms&k=Xml+format&w1=Xml+format&w2=Really+simple+syndication&w3=Advisory+board&w4=Advisory+board+company&c=4&s=95&g=2&.sig=R_P2EVAV_fssN3SsfQ0pmA>
>     * Really simple syndication
>       <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJkMjdlY21xBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzIEZ3JwSWQDMTcwNjEyNzIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA2MDMwMzkwBHNlYwNzbG1vZARzdGltZQMxMTY0Mjc4MDEx?t=ms&k=Really+simple+syndication&w1=Xml+format&w2=Really+simple+syndication&w3=Advisory+board&w4=Advisory+board+company&c=4&s=95&g=2&.sig=vKbHRqftQ9jAf8EbS0GHOw>
>     * Advisory board
>       <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJkNzZ2dmx1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzMEZ3JwSWQDMTcwNjEyNzIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA2MDMwMzkwBHNlYwNzbG1vZARzdGltZQMxMTY0Mjc4MDEx?t=ms&k=Advisory+board&w1=Xml+format&w2=Really+simple+syndication&w3=Advisory+board&w4=Advisory+board+company&c=4&s=95&g=2&.sig=Y_o83mLLTmtVaz7aXns-IQ>
>     * Advisory board company
>       <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJkcGloc3M2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzQEZ3JwSWQDMTcwNjEyNzIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA2MDMwMzkwBHNlYwNzbG1vZARzdGltZQMxMTY0Mjc4MDEx?t=ms&k=Advisory+board+company&w1=Xml+format&w2=Really+simple+syndication&w3=Advisory+board&w4=Advisory+board+company&c=4&s=95&g=2&.sig=AZW1_RoNPix4rYYLntm-_Q>
> 
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> 
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> <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12h5d6890/M=493064.8985663.9760769.8674578/D=groups/S=1706030390:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1164285211/A=3848642/R=0/SIG=131eshi2t/*http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/srchv2.php?o=US2004&cmp=Yahoo&ctv=Groups3&s=Y&s2=&s3=&b=50>
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> 
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> 
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> 
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> 
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> 
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> 
> Start a group
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/start;_ylc=X3oDMTJwcW1udGEwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzMEZ3JwSWQDMTcwNjEyNzIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA2MDMwMzkwBHNlYwNuY21vZARzbGsDZ3JvdXBzMgRzdGltZQMxMTY0Mjc4MDEw>
> 
> in 3 easy steps.
> 
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> 
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> __,_._,___




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Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 11:31:01 -0700
From: Brendan Taylor <whateley@gmail.com>
To: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Possible Errata
Message-ID: <20061123183101.GB20313@nyarlathotep.ed.shawcable.net>
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References: <000601c70be9$88dc4150$9a94c3f0$@com> <20061119161529.GI17418@klangraum> <BAY117-DAV2B5A3D1C94CBCB8E6F50A9FEE0@phx.gbl> <4560922D.1010602@gmail.com> <20061121201057.GI17418@klangraum>
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On Tue, Nov 21, 2006 at 09:10:57PM +0100, A. Pagaltzis wrote:
> * James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> [2006-11-19 18:35]:
> > The spec can be changed, it's just not a great idea to do so
> > until we get a critical mass of issues that can't seem to be
> > adequately worked around.
>=20
> Is anyone keeping a Possible Errata document or some such?

There's one[1] on the wiki. I've updated it with this issue (fallback
content) and the other one I can remember (extension attributes on
atom:link).

1: <http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/RFC4287Errata>

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From: Henri Sivonen <hsivonen@iki.fi>
Subject: Re: PaceResurrectAutodiscovery
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The latest WA 1.0 draft covers this as follows:

"If the alternate keyword is used with the type attribute set to the  
value application/rss+xml or the value application/atom+xml, then the  
user agent must treat the link as it would if it had the feed keyword  
specified as well."
http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#alternate0

"The feed keyword indicates that the referenced document is a  
syndication feed. If the alternate link type is also specified, then  
the feed is specifically the feed for the current document;  
otherwise, the feed is just a syndication feed, not necessarily  
associated with a particular Web page."
http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#feed0

-- 
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen@iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/





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From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
Subject: Re: PaceResurrectAutodiscovery
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 12:42:26 -0800
To: Henri Sivonen <hsivonen@iki.fi>
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Very nice.

One thing I like about the current atom spec, is that the link  
relations are in fact urls. The link relations are equivalent to the  
urls generated by appending "http://www.iana.org/assignments/ 
relation/" to the "alternate", "self", ... rel="..." strings.

This is very nice, in that it opens up the possibility of placing  
good RDF descriptions of these links at the http://www.iana.org/ 
assignments/relation/, as well as making the link relation very  
extensible (people who want to try out new link relations, can just  
use their own, unambiguous url).

I would recommend you adopt that too. Perhaps you can even adopt the  
iana name space. If we could get them to put the appropriate rdf  
document at that location, people who created/coined new link  
relations could describe these relations as being superproperties or  
subroperties of relations the browser already knows, which would  
allow the browser to partially interpret those.

Just a thought.

Henry

On 23 Nov 2006, at 12:05, Henri Sivonen wrote:

>
> The latest WA 1.0 draft covers this as follows:
>
> "If the alternate keyword is used with the type attribute set to  
> the value application/rss+xml or the value application/atom+xml,  
> then the user agent must treat the link as it would if it had the  
> feed keyword specified as well."
> http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#alternate0
>
> "The feed keyword indicates that the referenced document is a  
> syndication feed. If the alternate link type is also specified,  
> then the feed is specifically the feed for the current document;  
> otherwise, the feed is just a syndication feed, not necessarily  
> associated with a particular Web page."
> http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#feed0
>
> -- 
> Henri Sivonen
> hsivonen@iki.fi
> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/
>




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Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 23:28:59 +0100
From: "Thomas Broyer" <t.broyer@gmail.com>
To: Atom-Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: Re: PaceResurrectAutodiscovery
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2006/11/23, Henri Sivonen:
>
> The latest WA 1.0 draft covers this as follows:
>
> "If the alternate keyword is used with the type attribute set to the
> value application/rss+xml or the value application/atom+xml, then the
> user agent must treat the link as it would if it had the feed keyword
> specified as well."
> http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#alternate0

This conforts me in thinking that the application/atom+xml media type
should be updated to add a "type" parameter with values "feed" and
"entry".
There would be no ambiguity between these two links:
<link rel=3D"alternate" href=3D"application/atom+xml;type=3Dfeed"
   title=3D"This is a feed, which happens to be an 'alternate' of the
current page" />
<link rel=3D"alternate" href=3D"application/atom+xml;type=3Dentry"
   title=3D"This is a standalone entry" />

I expect aggregators to allow me to subscribe to feeds (subscribe in
the sense or "watch for new =E2=80=93or updated=E2=80=93 entries) or indi=
vidual
entries (subscribe in the sense of "watch for updates"). With
rel=3D"alternate" and an RSS or Atom media type, those aggregators could
show a "subscribe to this page" button. With an RSS or Atom media type
and another 'rel', they could a "subscribe to {@title}" button.

For example, with these two links:
<link rel=3D"contents" type=3D"text/html" href=3D"/index.html" />
<link rel=3D"contents" type=3D"application/atom+xml" href=3D"/feed.atom" =
/>
a browser could show "Go to Table of Contents" and "Subscribe to Table
of Contents" buttons.

> "The feed keyword indicates that the referenced document is a
> syndication feed.

"Being a syndication feed" is expressed by the media type, there's no
need for a 'rel' value.

The only reason for such a 'rel' is to replace the "contents" value in
the example above:
<link rel=3D"feed" type=3D"text/html" href=3D"/index.html" />
<link rel=3D"feed" type=3D"application/atom+xml" href=3D"/feed.atom" />
in "blog-like" use-cases where an HTML page serves the same purpose as
a syndication feed, just in an 'alternate' format.

--=20
Thomas Broyer




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Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 22:28:45 -0000
To: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: autodiscovery draft vs namespaces
From: "Kornel Lesinski" <kornel@osiolki.net>
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I've noticed that draft-ietf-atompub-autodiscovery-01.txt doesn't mention=
 =20
XML namespaces and tag prefixes. XHTML can get even more complex than mem=
o =20
suggests:

<foo:link xmlns:foo=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" rel=3D"alternate" =20
type=3D"application/atom+xml" href=3D"bar"></foo:link>

My suggestion is that instead of specifying all quirks of X[HT]ML syntax:
* require that XML parser is used for XHTML
* if document turns out not to be well-formed (which often is the case =20
with real-world "XHTML"), allow HTML parsing rules used as fallback

And then simply state that in XHTML <link> element in =20
"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" namespace should be used. An example XPath=
 =20
expression or W3C DOM-based pseudocode might be very helpful there.


BTW: in all examples attributes have always the same order. They could be=
 =20
shuffled to emphasise that order is not significant.

--=20
regards, Kornel Lesi=F1ski




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From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
Subject: Re: PaceResurrectAutodiscovery
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 14:43:06 -0800
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On 23 Nov 2006, at 14:28, Thomas Broyer wrote:

>
>> "The feed keyword indicates that the referenced document is a
>> syndication feed.
>
> "Being a syndication feed" is expressed by the media type, there's no
> need for a 'rel' value.
>
> The only reason for such a 'rel' is to replace the "contents" value in
> the example above:
> <link rel="feed" type="text/html" href="/index.html" />
> <link rel="feed" type="application/atom+xml" href="/feed.atom" />
> in "blog-like" use-cases where an HTML page serves the same purpose as
> a syndication feed, just in an 'alternate' format.

Exactly: you have just made one good point why one should not use  
mime types to identify the relation. After all there may be many  
different feed representations: html, rss 1.0, rss 2.0, atom,   
rdf, ... etc...

There are many other good reasons to not use the "alternate" relation  
everywhere. The spec [1] for feed makes the case for a useful  
distinction between a feed that can be used to track updates of the  
content one is looking at, and something that is just an alternate  
representation of the content one is looking at expressed in  
application/atom+xml format. This would be the case for the front of  
my blog page.


Henry

[1] http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#feed0




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On 24/11/06 9:28 AM, "Thomas Broyer" <t.broyer@gmail.com> wrote:

> "Being a syndication feed" is expressed by the media type, there's no
> need for a 'rel' value.

I disagree, but for slightly different reasons. Consider these two links:

    <link rel="feed"
        type="application/atom+xml;type=feed" href="/latest.atom" />
    <link rel="alternate"
        type="application/atom+xml;type=feed" href="/2006/10.atom" />

They are both Atom Feed Documents, but the former is the syndication feed to
which one would reasonably subscribe to for delivery of more content like
you're looking at, and the latter is simply an alternate representation of
the current content (in this case being an archive page for October 2006),
and subscribing to it would be foolish.

Also, how do we have syndication feeds in different representation formats
(eg. RSS), or are you proposing the ";type=feed" gets appended to all the
various media types as needed?

> "The feed keyword indicates that the referenced document is a
> syndication feed. If the alternate link type is also specified, then
> the feed is specifically the feed for the current document;
> otherwise, the feed is just a syndication feed, not necessarily
> associated with a particular Web page."

There's a third case they don't mention here, which is if 'alternate' is
used but 'feed' is not also specified ... in which case it's not a "feed" in
the sense of a source of continuing updates, but more like a static resource
(subject to the usual bit rot and tweaky updates).

The three cases are:

    @rel="feed"
    @rel="alternate feed"
    @rel="alternate"

Would be nice if there was an RFC we could point at which clarified what is
meant by each. Would go a long way towards overcoming deployment inertia.

e.




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James M Snell wrote:
> Pace to put autodiscovery back in play [1]
> 
> Resubmit the Autodiscovery Draft[2] with no changes and submit for
> consideration as a Proposed Standard.

I don't think that's a good idea for several reasons, primarily because 
feed autodiscovery isn't just for Atom, it's for RSS, RDF and other 
syndication formats as well; the quality of the spec is poor; and, as 
Henri pointed out, Web Apps 1.0 is already defining it.  See below for a 
more detailed explanation.

Eric Scheid wrote:
> I suggest a relationship value of "feed", to use when pointing to a feed.

I agree.

James M Snell wrote:
> My preference would be to maintain the de facto standard that is already 
> in use by countless sites.  I'm just as annoyed as you are about the 
> ambiguity in the mime type but in this case I think what's currently 
> deployed trumps what's technically correct.

I agree that compatibility with existing practice is important, but that 
doesn't mean the situation can't be improved in a backwards compatible way.

Thomas Broyer wrote:
> Henri Sivonen wrote:
>> The latest WA 1.0 draft covers this as follows:
>>
>> "If the alternate keyword is used with the type attribute set to the
>> value application/rss+xml or the value application/atom+xml, then the
>> user agent must treat the link as it would if it had the feed keyword
>> specified as well."
>> http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#alternate0
> 
> This conforts me in thinking that the application/atom+xml media type
> should be updated to add a "type" parameter with values "feed" and
> "entry".

For the user, why would such a distinction be useful?  Also, given what 
the WA1 says about rel="alternate feed":

   If the alternate link type is also specified, then the feed is
   specifically the feed for the current document

Then wouldn't that have effectively the same meaning when used on an 
individual article's page?

>> "The feed keyword indicates that the referenced document is a
>> syndication feed.
> 
> "Being a syndication feed" is expressed by the media type, there's no
> need for a 'rel' value.

No, the MIME type only indicates the format, not the type of relattionship.

> http://ietfreport.isoc.org/idref/draft-ietf-atompub-autodiscovery/

The sections Syntax rules inherited from HTML and Syntax rules inherited 
from XHTML are not useful.  In the case of XHTML, the syntax is defined 
by XML.  In the case of HTML, the syntax is defined in HTML4 (though 
it's being redefined in HTML5).  It is not necessary for this spec to 
provide a summary of the syntax rules, although it may do so 
informatively, it should instead normatively refer to the HTML 4.01, 
XHTML 1.0, XML 1.0 and/or (X)HTML5 specs.

The value of the rel attributes are being defined in Web Applications 
1.0, as Henri pointed out already.  The spec should not mandate the use 
of "alternate" for syndication feeds, but rather define "feed" and 
specify the conditions under which "alternate" implies "feed" (for 
backwards compatibility).  That is what WA1 does.

When rel="feed" is used, the type attribute should not be required, and 
it most certainly must not specify specific MIME type to use.  There are 
various syndication formats in use, including Atom, RSS and RDF. 
Although, for compatibility when alternate is used, UAs need to treat 
application/atom+xml and application/rss+xml specially to imply feed, 
the latter may use application/rdf+xml and all three of those may also 
use application/xml and (although not recommended) text/xml.

The spec should not require that autodiscovery only work for <link> 
elements.  The rel and type attributes may also be used on <a> elements 
and, although not all existing UAs currently support that, the spec 
should define that either <link> or <a> may be used.

 From the spec:

| Each autodiscovery element SHOULD point to a different Atom feed.

How should UAs handle cases where 2 links point to the same location? 
Should both be presented to the user separately?  Should one take 
precedence of the other?  Which one: the first one?  What if one is a 
<link> and the other is an <a> in the document?  It's common for pages 
to include both like that, given that currently only <link> works for 
autodiscovery and <a> is useful for UAs that don't support autodiscovery.

The sections  rel attribute variations, type attribute variations and 
link element variations read like a bunch of test cases.  It's good to 
provide examples, but these sections have no normative requirements and 
it's unnecessary to provide examples for virtually every possible 
variation.  The examples should ideally be moved up to the sections that 
state the normative requirements about the syntax, not be separate 
sections on their own.

The references to HTMl4 and XHTML1 should be normative references, not 
informative, because those specs define the syntax and semantics of the 
elements being used.  In other words, it's a requirement that, any UA 
implementing this spec, also implements the relevant sections of those 
specs.

However, since the Web Applications draft already covers all of these 
issues fairly well, I believe it is unnecessary for this draft to be 
resurrected.  Instead, a few of the good ideas from this draft should be 
integrated into the WA1 spec.

-- 
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/




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Subject: RE: Forward Compatibility
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> Atom processors need to know how to construct a full XHTML 1.x  
> document from the Atom entry if they co-operate with an XHTML 1.x  
> processing module that wants to see full documents.

It seems that... only extremely few of atom processors can do so at the moment... (Actually I am not sure if there is any)

Microsoft Office Outlook 2007, Mozilla Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 and Opera 9.1.8653 all fails to generate a full XHTML 1.x document.

Office shows a HTML document with <div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><p xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><img ... /></p></div>.

Thunderbird is better... at least... does not have any xmlns=""... but XHTML's elements... such as <br />, <img ... />... still exists...

Opera has <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> in its generated source... with XHTML's elements like Thunderbird...

It seems that... even type="xhtml"... is lacking support from processors.

Franklin Tse

-----Original Message-----
From: Henri Sivonen [mailto:hsivonen@iki.fi] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 05:28
To: Tse Shing Chi ((Franklin/Whale))
Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: Forward Compatibility

On Nov 20, 2006, at 17:47, Tse Shing Chi ((Franklin/Whale)) wrote:

>> I understand your not wanting to put a complete XHTML 2.0 document
>> inside atom:content or atom:summary, but since DIV isn't supposed to
>> be the root element of an XHTML 2.0 document, omitting the rest of
>> the document violates at least the "spirit" of the Atom spec...though
>> we didn't use normative language where it says "normally" to actually
>> prohibit it.
>
> But div is not the root element of XHTML 1.x as well.

It isn't, but XHTML 1.x as type='xhtml' is a special case in Atom, so  
Atom processors need to know how to construct a full XHTML 1.x  
document from the Atom entry if they co-operate with an XHTML 1.x  
processing module that wants to see full documents.

Using an XHTML 1.x fragment with type='application/xhtml+xml' would  
not be proper.

-- 
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen@iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/







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> Web Apps 1.0 is already defining it

> However, since the Web Applications draft already covers all of these 
> issues fairly well, I believe it is unnecessary for this draft to be 
> resurrected.  Instead, a few of the good ideas from this draft should be 
> integrated into the WA1 spec.

Web Applications 1.0 is new markup language based on HTML under development. UAs that support feed autodiscovery are not necessary to support Web Apps 1.0. Relying on the definitions in the specification of Web Apps 1.0 is not appropriate.

The reason of using "alternate" is that, "alternate" was already defined the HTML 4.01 Specificiation and it is widely used by UAs. [ http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/types.html#type-links ]

If we need to define more link type, we may need to do the following as recommended by the specification.

"Authors may wish to define additional link types not described in this specification. If they do so, they should use a profile to cite the conventions used to define the link types. Please see the profile attribute of the HEAD element for more details."

On the other hand, the W3C Widgets 1.0 autodiscovery is also using "alternate". [ http://www.w3.org/TR/widgets/#autodiscovery ]

> The spec should not require that autodiscovery only work for <link> 
> elements.  The rel and type attributes may also be used on <a> elements 
> and, although not all existing UAs currently support that, the spec 
> should define that either <link> or <a> may be used.

I think that only <link> should be used. All feeds linked by <a> should be ignored during the process of autodiscovery.

Franklin Tse

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Lachlan Hunt
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 12:52
To: atom-syntax
Subject: Re: PaceResurrectAutodiscovery


James M Snell wrote:
> Pace to put autodiscovery back in play [1]
> 
> Resubmit the Autodiscovery Draft[2] with no changes and submit for
> consideration as a Proposed Standard.

I don't think that's a good idea for several reasons, primarily because 
feed autodiscovery isn't just for Atom, it's for RSS, RDF and other 
syndication formats as well; the quality of the spec is poor; and, as 
Henri pointed out, Web Apps 1.0 is already defining it.  See below for a 
more detailed explanation.

Eric Scheid wrote:
> I suggest a relationship value of "feed", to use when pointing to a feed.

I agree.

James M Snell wrote:
> My preference would be to maintain the de facto standard that is already 
> in use by countless sites.  I'm just as annoyed as you are about the 
> ambiguity in the mime type but in this case I think what's currently 
> deployed trumps what's technically correct.

I agree that compatibility with existing practice is important, but that 
doesn't mean the situation can't be improved in a backwards compatible way.

Thomas Broyer wrote:
> Henri Sivonen wrote:
>> The latest WA 1.0 draft covers this as follows:
>>
>> "If the alternate keyword is used with the type attribute set to the
>> value application/rss+xml or the value application/atom+xml, then the
>> user agent must treat the link as it would if it had the feed keyword
>> specified as well."
>> http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#alternate0
> 
> This conforts me in thinking that the application/atom+xml media type
> should be updated to add a "type" parameter with values "feed" and
> "entry".

For the user, why would such a distinction be useful?  Also, given what 
the WA1 says about rel="alternate feed":

   If the alternate link type is also specified, then the feed is
   specifically the feed for the current document

Then wouldn't that have effectively the same meaning when used on an 
individual article's page?

>> "The feed keyword indicates that the referenced document is a
>> syndication feed.
> 
> "Being a syndication feed" is expressed by the media type, there's no
> need for a 'rel' value.

No, the MIME type only indicates the format, not the type of relattionship.

> http://ietfreport.isoc.org/idref/draft-ietf-atompub-autodiscovery/

The sections Syntax rules inherited from HTML and Syntax rules inherited 
from XHTML are not useful.  In the case of XHTML, the syntax is defined 
by XML.  In the case of HTML, the syntax is defined in HTML4 (though 
it's being redefined in HTML5).  It is not necessary for this spec to 
provide a summary of the syntax rules, although it may do so 
informatively, it should instead normatively refer to the HTML 4.01, 
XHTML 1.0, XML 1.0 and/or (X)HTML5 specs.

The value of the rel attributes are being defined in Web Applications 
1.0, as Henri pointed out already.  The spec should not mandate the use 
of "alternate" for syndication feeds, but rather define "feed" and 
specify the conditions under which "alternate" implies "feed" (for 
backwards compatibility).  That is what WA1 does.

When rel="feed" is used, the type attribute should not be required, and 
it most certainly must not specify specific MIME type to use.  There are 
various syndication formats in use, including Atom, RSS and RDF. 
Although, for compatibility when alternate is used, UAs need to treat 
application/atom+xml and application/rss+xml specially to imply feed, 
the latter may use application/rdf+xml and all three of those may also 
use application/xml and (although not recommended) text/xml.

The spec should not require that autodiscovery only work for <link> 
elements.  The rel and type attributes may also be used on <a> elements 
and, although not all existing UAs currently support that, the spec 
should define that either <link> or <a> may be used.

 From the spec:

| Each autodiscovery element SHOULD point to a different Atom feed.

How should UAs handle cases where 2 links point to the same location? 
Should both be presented to the user separately?  Should one take 
precedence of the other?  Which one: the first one?  What if one is a 
<link> and the other is an <a> in the document?  It's common for pages 
to include both like that, given that currently only <link> works for 
autodiscovery and <a> is useful for UAs that don't support autodiscovery.

The sections  rel attribute variations, type attribute variations and 
link element variations read like a bunch of test cases.  It's good to 
provide examples, but these sections have no normative requirements and 
it's unnecessary to provide examples for virtually every possible 
variation.  The examples should ideally be moved up to the sections that 
state the normative requirements about the syntax, not be separate 
sections on their own.

The references to HTMl4 and XHTML1 should be normative references, not 
informative, because those specs define the syntax and semantics of the 
elements being used.  In other words, it's a requirement that, any UA 
implementing this spec, also implements the relevant sections of those 
specs.

However, since the Web Applications draft already covers all of these 
issues fairly well, I believe it is unnecessary for this draft to be 
resurrected.  Instead, a few of the good ideas from this draft should be 
integrated into the WA1 spec.

-- 
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/






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Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) wrote:
>> However, since the Web Applications draft already covers all of 
>> these issues fairly well, I believe it is unnecessary for this 
>> draft to be resurrected.  Instead, a few of the good ideas from 
>> this draft should be integrated into the WA1 spec.
> 
> Web Applications 1.0 is new markup language based on HTML under 
> development. UAs that support feed autodiscovery are not necessary to 
> support Web Apps 1.0. Relying on the definitions in the specification 
> of Web Apps 1.0 is not appropriate.

They don't need to support it fully, UAs can just implement the parts 
they need.  The relationships can still be defined within it, just like 
many were defined in HTML4.

> The reason of using "alternate" is that, "alternate" was already
> defined the HTML 4.01 Specificiation and it is widely used by UAs. [
> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/types.html#type-links ]

I'm aware of the reason for choosing alternate originally and I accept 
that it needs to be supported like that for backwards compatibility, but 
that doesn't mean we can't fix the mistake.

> "Authors may wish to define additional link types not described in
> this specification. If they do so, they should use a profile to cite
> the conventions used to define the link types. Please see the profile
> attribute of the HEAD element for more details."

The profile attribute isn't used in reality.  Authors rarely set it, or 
it's set by their CMS to some default value and they don't bother to 
change it.  Many of the tools that implement microformats don't even 
bother to check for the presence of the correct profile attribute, they 
just look for the values of the rel and class attributes.  The profile 
attribute will most likely be dropped from HTML5.

> On the other hand, the W3C Widgets 1.0 autodiscovery is also using
> "alternate". [ http://www.w3.org/TR/widgets/#autodiscovery ]

That's currently a first working draft and I think that's a mistake, 
rel="alternate" is not designed as a relationship for everything, it was 
designed for the specific purpose of linking to alternative 
representations.  In the case of feeds, it sort of fits the definition, 
though not completely, but it certainly doesn't in the case of a widget. 
  They should instead define something like rel="widget" because a 
widget is not necessarily an alternate representation of a document.

> I think that only <link> should be used. All feeds linked by <a>
> should be ignored during the process of autodiscovery.

Why?

-- 
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/




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From: "Thomas Broyer" <t.broyer@gmail.com>
To: Atom-Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: Re: PaceResurrectAutodiscovery
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2006/11/23, Henry Story:
> On 23 Nov 2006, at 14:28, Thomas Broyer wrote:
>
> >
> >> "The feed keyword indicates that the referenced document is a
> >> syndication feed.
> >
> > "Being a syndication feed" is expressed by the media type, there's no
> > need for a 'rel' value.
> >
> > The only reason for such a 'rel' is to replace the "contents" value in
> > the example above:
> > <link rel="feed" type="text/html" href="/index.html" />
> > <link rel="feed" type="application/atom+xml" href="/feed.atom" />
> > in "blog-like" use-cases where an HTML page serves the same purpose as
> > a syndication feed, just in an 'alternate' format.
>
> Exactly: you have just made one good point why one should not use
> mime types to identify the relation. After all there may be many
> different feed representations: html, rss 1.0, rss 2.0, atom,
> rdf, ... etc...

My problem is that:
1. there is no need for a "feed alternate" as spec'd by the WhatWG:
   - when you (as an autodiscovery tool) look at a resource, it might
point to a 'feed' within which it is an 'entry' (or 'item'), this
'feed' might be many different formats, if it happens that you know
how to subscribe to one of the proposed formats, you can provide a
"subscribe to feed" ("within which the current 'page' is an 'item'"
implied) button;
   - when you look at resource which is a 'feed' (and this kind of
thing cannot be "autodiscovered"), then you'll have links to other
formats as 'alternate's, if it happens that you know how to subscribe
to on the proposed formats, you can provide a "subscribe to _this_
feed" (or "subscribe to this page") button
The condition to show a "subscribe" button is whether you know how to
deal with the format, the text you'll use on the button depends on the
relation of this "feed resource" wrt the "current page".
2. stating that if rel="alternate" and @type is RSS or Atom (feed or
entry), then treat the same as rel="feed alternate" is a Bad Thing:
the 'alternate' might be a standalone Atom entry, or might be an
"archive feed": in the former case, a type=entry would disambiguate
it; in the latter case, you'll still provide a "subscribe button"
(because you have no mean to detect it is an "archive feed" without
downloading it) but when the user will click it and you'll dereference
the link, you'll pop up a "the feed is marked as being an archive,
which means it won't be updated, are you sure you want to subscribe?"
message box. If the feed has a <link rel="current" /> with a @type you
know how to deal with, you can change the message box to add "however
the feed provides the location of a 'living feed', do you want to
subscribe to this one instead?".

So, what I'm saying is: I'm not willing to use media types to identify
relations (the fact that you can technically subscribe to a thing
depends on the format of that thing, whether you can parse it or not),
I'm willing NOT TO use relations to identify "groups of media types"
(the ones looking like feed: a container with metadata and contained
items with their own metadata).

Last, but not least, "alternate stylesheet" has a special meaning, and
using "alternate feed" in a different way is a bit confusing...

My main problem with autodiscovery is this use case: the following
links on an "entry page" in a blog-like scenario, where comments on
the entry are shown at the bottom of the page:
<link rel="alternate" type="application/atom+xml"
    title="A standalone Atom Entry alternate representation, might
even be updatable using HTTP PUT" />
<link rel="XXX" type="application/atom+xml"
    title="Comments on this entry" />
<link rel="YYY" type="application/atom+xml"
    title="Site-wide feed" />

1. the first one should not be seen as a "feed" link; I'm proposing
adding a type=entry parameter to the application/atom+xml media type
to help disambiguation; I'm also disagreeing here with the rule of the
WhatWG (rel="alternate" + "feed" media type => rel="feed alternate")

2. which values to give to XXX and YYY?
If XXX is 'alternate', then you need a type=feed parameter not to
confuse the two first links.
XXX and YYY should not be the same, the relations are not the same:
XXX is "contained" while YYY is a "container".
I'm proposing XXX=alternate and YYY=feed; along with adding a
type={feed,entry} to the application/atom+xml media type.

> There are many other good reasons to not use the "alternate" relation
> everywhere. The spec [1] for feed makes the case for a useful
> distinction between a feed that can be used to track updates of the
> content one is looking at,

You don't need a special format for that, you could just regularly
poll the resource with If-Modified-Since and If-None-Match.
A special format (which would just be an 'alternate', and nothing
more) helps present it in a unified way along different web sites.

> and something that is just an alternate representation of the content
> one is looking at expressed in application/atom+xml format.

That would be 'feed alternate'? If so, then your other case above does
not fall in the 'feed' case: from the WhatWG, "otherwise, the feed is
just a syndication feed, not necessarily
associated with a particular Web page": how can you describe a
relationship between to things (that's what is doing a link) and at
the same time say that the other end of the link is "not associated
with a particular Web page"?

> This would be the case for the front of my blog page.

rel=alternate is enough in this case.

-- 
Thomas Broyer




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From: Henri Sivonen <hsivonen@iki.fi>
Subject: Re: PaceResurrectAutodiscovery
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 11:19:51 +0200
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On Nov 24, 2006, at 10:28, Thomas Broyer wrote:

> My main problem with autodiscovery is this use case: the following
> links on an "entry page" in a blog-like scenario, where comments on
> the entry are shown at the bottom of the page:
> <link rel="alternate" type="application/atom+xml"
>    title="A standalone Atom Entry alternate representation, might
> even be updatable using HTTP PUT" />
...
> 1. the first one should not be seen as a "feed" link;

That ship sailed long ago. For backwards compatibility, UAs will  
treat links like the one quoted above as feed autodiscovery links-- 
not as standalone APP editing links. It is too late to apply elegance  
retroactively.

-- 
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen@iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/





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2006/11/24, Henri Sivonen:
> On Nov 24, 2006, at 10:28, Thomas Broyer wrote:
>
> > My main problem with autodiscovery is this use case: the following
> > links on an "entry page" in a blog-like scenario, where comments on
> > the entry are shown at the bottom of the page:
> > <link rel=3D"alternate" type=3D"application/atom+xml"
> >    title=3D"A standalone Atom Entry alternate representation, might
> > even be updatable using HTTP PUT" />
> ...
> > 1. the first one should not be seen as a "feed" link;
>
> That ship sailed long ago. For backwards compatibility, UAs will
> treat links like the one quoted above as feed autodiscovery links--
> not as standalone APP editing links. It is too late to apply elegance
> retroactively.

=E2=80=A6except if you update application/atom+xml to add a type=3Dentry
parameter... in which case the existing code will probably won't
"find" the link...

In the absence of 'type' parameter, you have no mean to know whether
the Atom DOcument is a feed or entry, so you treat it as a "possible
feed", just in case. And you're backwards compatible.

--=20
Thomas Broyer




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On Nov 23, 2006, at 22:42, Henry Story wrote:

> This is very nice, in that it opens up the possibility of placing  
> good RDF descriptions of these links at the http://www.iana.org/ 
> assignments/relation/,

How could new link relations be described in RDF to such a degree  
that the description would actually be useful for software processing  
but simple enough to actually be implemented? Is it realistic to have  
UAs whacking IANA server effectively performing a DDoS on it?

> as well as making the link relation very extensible (people who  
> want to try out new link relations, can just use their own,  
> unambiguous url).

How are full URIs distinguished from strings that need to be appended  
to "http://www.iana.org/assignments/relation/" to obtain the full  
URI? Are UAs supposed to look for a colon as with XForms input  
methods? Where is this specified?

In practice people seem to want to use one-word link relations even  
when they are coming up with their own.

> I would recommend you adopt that too. Perhaps you can even adopt  
> the iana name space. If we could get them to put the appropriate  
> rdf document at that location, people who created/coined new link  
> relations could describe these relations as being superproperties  
> or subroperties of relations the browser already knows, which would  
> allow the browser to partially interpret those.

Well, RDF is not viewed that favorably by the WHATWG. Also, the  
barrier for entry for the IANA registration process is likely too  
high. (It certainly is for MIME types.) As for using the same  
namespace, the HTML5 definitions for the link types don't necessarily  
match the Atom definitions.

Recently, a WHATWG-managed registry for HTML5 rel values has been  
discussed informally. The idea was that conformance checkers could  
consult an online registry instead of only allowing a fixed list of  
values or allowing everything. RDF is an overkill for this. Even XMDP  
isn't the simplest thing that could possibly work. The simplest thing  
that could possibly work is a GETtable text/plain; charset=utf-8  
resource at a well-known URI with one rel value per LF-separated line.

-- 
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen@iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/





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Subject: RE: PaceResurrectAutodiscovery
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>> I think that only <link> should be used. All feeds linked by <a>
>> should be ignored during the process of autodiscovery.

> Why?

Autodiscovery should be limited to <head>...</head>. If an author wants his feeds to be discovered automatically by UAs, he should use <link>. Providing additional or same feed links using <a> is only for linking and does not affect the autodiscovery. Scanning whole document is not necessary and increases the complexity.

Franklin Tse

-----Original Message-----
From: Lachlan Hunt [mailto:lachlan.hunt@lachy.id.au] 
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 15:45
To: Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale)
Cc: 'atom-syntax'
Subject: Re: PaceResurrectAutodiscovery

Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) wrote:
>> However, since the Web Applications draft already covers all of 
>> these issues fairly well, I believe it is unnecessary for this 
>> draft to be resurrected.  Instead, a few of the good ideas from 
>> this draft should be integrated into the WA1 spec.
> 
> Web Applications 1.0 is new markup language based on HTML under 
> development. UAs that support feed autodiscovery are not necessary to 
> support Web Apps 1.0. Relying on the definitions in the specification 
> of Web Apps 1.0 is not appropriate.

They don't need to support it fully, UAs can just implement the parts 
they need.  The relationships can still be defined within it, just like 
many were defined in HTML4.

> The reason of using "alternate" is that, "alternate" was already
> defined the HTML 4.01 Specificiation and it is widely used by UAs. [
> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/types.html#type-links ]

I'm aware of the reason for choosing alternate originally and I accept 
that it needs to be supported like that for backwards compatibility, but 
that doesn't mean we can't fix the mistake.

> "Authors may wish to define additional link types not described in
> this specification. If they do so, they should use a profile to cite
> the conventions used to define the link types. Please see the profile
> attribute of the HEAD element for more details."

The profile attribute isn't used in reality.  Authors rarely set it, or 
it's set by their CMS to some default value and they don't bother to 
change it.  Many of the tools that implement microformats don't even 
bother to check for the presence of the correct profile attribute, they 
just look for the values of the rel and class attributes.  The profile 
attribute will most likely be dropped from HTML5.

> On the other hand, the W3C Widgets 1.0 autodiscovery is also using
> "alternate". [ http://www.w3.org/TR/widgets/#autodiscovery ]

That's currently a first working draft and I think that's a mistake, 
rel="alternate" is not designed as a relationship for everything, it was 
designed for the specific purpose of linking to alternative 
representations.  In the case of feeds, it sort of fits the definition, 
though not completely, but it certainly doesn't in the case of a widget. 
  They should instead define something like rel="widget" because a 
widget is not necessarily an alternate representation of a document.

> I think that only <link> should be used. All feeds linked by <a>
> should be ignored during the process of autodiscovery.

Why?

-- 
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/





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Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) wrote:
>>> I think that only <link> should be used. All feeds linked by <a> 
>>> should be ignored during the process of autodiscovery.
>> 
>> Why?
> 
> Autodiscovery should be limited to <head>...</head>. If an author 
> wants his feeds to be discovered automatically by UAs, he should use 
> <link>. Providing additional or same feed links using <a> is only for 
> linking and does not affect the autodiscovery. Scanning whole 
> document is not necessary and increases the complexity.

Ah, but this works!

<html>
<head>
  <title>Feed Autodiscovery</title>
</head>
<body>
   <p>... really long body ...</p>
   <link rel="alternate" type="application/atom+xml" href="/feed">
</body>
</html>

I tested that with both HTML and XHTML and both tests worked in Firefox, 
Opera and Safari. IE7 was the only broswer that appeared to do what you 
suggest, at least to some degree.  But given that IE7 is in the minority 
in this case, and doesn't handle link elements in the body like other 
browsers (the way it's being defined in HTML5), I consider that a bug in IE.

-- 
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/






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From: Geoffrey Sneddon <foolistbar@googlemail.com>
Subject: Fwd: PaceResurrectAutodiscovery
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:04:27 +0000
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On 25 Nov 2006, at 14:24, Lachlan Hunt wrote:

> Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) wrote:
>>>> I think that only <link> should be used. All feeds linked by <a>  
>>>> should be ignored during the process of autodiscovery.
>>> Why?
>> Autodiscovery should be limited to <head>...</head>. If an author  
>> wants his feeds to be discovered automatically by UAs, he should  
>> use <link>. Providing additional or same feed links using <a> is  
>> only for linking and does not affect the autodiscovery. Scanning  
>> whole document is not necessary and increases the complexity.
>
> Ah, but this works!
>
> <html>
> <head>
>  <title>Feed Autodiscovery</title>
> </head>
> <body>
>   <p>... really long body ...</p>
>   <link rel="alternate" type="application/atom+xml" href="/feed">
> </body>
> </html>
>
> I tested that with both HTML and XHTML and both tests worked in  
> Firefox, Opera and Safari. IE7 was the only broswer that appeared  
> to do what you suggest, at least to some degree.  But given that  
> IE7 is in the minority in this case, and doesn't handle link  
> elements in the body like other browsers (the way it's being  
> defined in HTML5), I consider that a bug in IE.

The link element is currently defined as being able to used "In a  
head element." in HTML5, in the current WD.


- Geoffrey Sneddon



<Seems I accidentally sent this just to Lachlan, not to the mailing  
list. Duh. Good attempt at a first post on a mailing list.>




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Subject: RE: PaceResurrectAutodiscovery
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Your example is a invalid HTML document.

<link> can only be put inside <head>.

While you have mentioned HTML 5, you may take a look on XHTML 2. XHTML 2 allows all elements inside <body> to have a "href" attribute and thus they can be a link without using <a>. It is very complicated case for UAs to scan all.

IE 7 is actually doing a good job, it is rejecting all <link> elements which are put in a wrong position. I cannot understand why Firefox, Opera and Safari detect the links.

Franklin Tse

-----Original Message-----
From: Lachlan Hunt [mailto:lachlan.hunt@lachy.id.au] 
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 22:24
To: Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale)
Cc: 'atom-syntax'
Subject: Re: PaceResurrectAutodiscovery

Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) wrote:
>>> I think that only <link> should be used. All feeds linked by <a> 
>>> should be ignored during the process of autodiscovery.
>> 
>> Why?
> 
> Autodiscovery should be limited to <head>...</head>. If an author 
> wants his feeds to be discovered automatically by UAs, he should use 
> <link>. Providing additional or same feed links using <a> is only for 
> linking and does not affect the autodiscovery. Scanning whole 
> document is not necessary and increases the complexity.

Ah, but this works!

<html>
<head>
  <title>Feed Autodiscovery</title>
</head>
<body>
   <p>... really long body ...</p>
   <link rel="alternate" type="application/atom+xml" href="/feed">
</body>
</html>

I tested that with both HTML and XHTML and both tests worked in Firefox, 
Opera and Safari. IE7 was the only broswer that appeared to do what you 
suggest, at least to some degree.  But given that IE7 is in the minority 
in this case, and doesn't handle link elements in the body like other 
browsers (the way it's being defined in HTML5), I consider that a bug in IE.

-- 
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/








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Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 02:56:50 +1100
From: Lachlan Hunt <lachlan.hunt@lachy.id.au>
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Subject: Re: PaceResurrectAutodiscovery
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Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) wrote:
> Lachlan Hunt wrote:
>> Ah, but this works!
>> 
>> <html>
>> <head>
>>   <title>Feed Autodiscovery</title>
>> </head>
>> <body>
>>    <p>... really long body ...</p>
>>    <link rel="alternate" type="application/atom+xml" href="/feed">
>> </body>
>> </html>
> 
> Your example is a invalid HTML document.
> 
> <link> can only be put inside <head>.

That's not the point.  In the real world, authors make many stupid 
mistakes and elements appear all over the place, which browsers have to 
deal with.

> While you have mentioned HTML 5, you may take a look on XHTML 2. 
> XHTML 2 allows all elements inside <body> to have a "href" 
> attribute and thus they can be a link without using <a>. It is 
> very complicated case for UAs to scan all.

XHTML 2 effectively dead.  That href-on-any-element feature is one that 
browser vendors have already stated to be difficult to implement.  In 
fact, XHTML 2 as a whole is already near impossible to implement in the 
real world, and, if the WG goes through with their stated plan to reuse 
the XHTML 1.x namespace, it will be totally impossible to implement. 
Therefore, XHTML 2 is irrelevant to this discussion.

> IE 7 is actually doing a good job, it is rejecting all <link> elements 
> which are put in a wrong position.

No, IE's behaviour is extremely inconsistent and buggy.  This test 
actually works in IE.

<!DOCTYPE html>
<title>Autodiscovery</title>
<div>
   <link rel="alternate" type="application/atom+xml" 
href="http://lachy.id.au/log/feed">
   <p>This case still works in IE!
</div>

> I cannot understand why Firefox, Opera and Safari detect the links.

Because they have to deal with real world content.  For example, 
although this isn't a an autodiscovery link, see where Google have 
placed the prefetch link in this page.

http://www.google.com/search?q=Microsoft

<link rel="prefetch" href="http://www.microsoft.com/">

Because browsers have to handle all link elements the same way, 
regardless of their attributes, they also have to handle the equivalent 
for autodiscovery links.

-- 
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/




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Geoffrey Sneddon wrote:
> The link element is currently defined as being able to used "In a head 
> element." in HTML5, in the current WD.

I was referring to the way browsers have to handle it in non-conforming 
documents.

| If the insertion mode is "in body"
|    Handle the token as follows:
|    ...
|    A start tag token whose tag name is one of: "base", "link", "meta",
|    "style", "title"
|        Parse error. Process the token as if the insertion mode had
|        been "in head".

That effectively means, no matter where the link element occurs, it has 
to be inserted into the head.

http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#in-body

-- 
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/




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Parse Error! [ http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#parse ]

Quote

"The error handling for parse errors is well-defined: user agents must either act as described below when encountering such problems, or must abort processing at the first error that they encounter for which they do not wish to apply the rules described"

Franklin

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Lachlan Hunt
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 23:59
To: Geoffrey Sneddon
Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: Fwd: PaceResurrectAutodiscovery


Geoffrey Sneddon wrote:
> The link element is currently defined as being able to used "In a head 
> element." in HTML5, in the current WD.

I was referring to the way browsers have to handle it in non-conforming 
documents.

| If the insertion mode is "in body"
|    Handle the token as follows:
|    ...
|    A start tag token whose tag name is one of: "base", "link", "meta",
|    "style", "title"
|        Parse error. Process the token as if the insertion mode had
|        been "in head".

That effectively means, no matter where the link element occurs, it has 
to be inserted into the head.

http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#in-body

-- 
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/






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Subject: RE: PaceResurrectAutodiscovery
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No. Authors take the responsibility to correct the mistakes. Browsers should not help them to do so.

I would like to repeat once again: HTML 4.01, HTML 5, XHTML 1.0 and XHTML 1.1 allow <link> elements put inside the <head> section only.

Even though the behavior of Internet Explorer 7 is inconsistent, it can handle valid examples, it is the most important point.

I cannot imagine if <meta> and <title> are being used anywhere in a HTML document.

Franklin Tse

-----Original Message-----
From: Lachlan Hunt [mailto:lachlan.hunt@lachy.id.au] 
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 23:57
To: Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale)
Cc: 'atom-syntax'
Subject: Re: PaceResurrectAutodiscovery

Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) wrote:
> Lachlan Hunt wrote:
>> Ah, but this works!
>> 
>> <html>
>> <head>
>>   <title>Feed Autodiscovery</title>
>> </head>
>> <body>
>>    <p>... really long body ...</p>
>>    <link rel="alternate" type="application/atom+xml" href="/feed">
>> </body>
>> </html>
> 
> Your example is a invalid HTML document.
> 
> <link> can only be put inside <head>.

That's not the point.  In the real world, authors make many stupid 
mistakes and elements appear all over the place, which browsers have to 
deal with.

> While you have mentioned HTML 5, you may take a look on XHTML 2. 
> XHTML 2 allows all elements inside <body> to have a "href" 
> attribute and thus they can be a link without using <a>. It is 
> very complicated case for UAs to scan all.

XHTML 2 effectively dead.  That href-on-any-element feature is one that 
browser vendors have already stated to be difficult to implement.  In 
fact, XHTML 2 as a whole is already near impossible to implement in the 
real world, and, if the WG goes through with their stated plan to reuse 
the XHTML 1.x namespace, it will be totally impossible to implement. 
Therefore, XHTML 2 is irrelevant to this discussion.

> IE 7 is actually doing a good job, it is rejecting all <link> elements 
> which are put in a wrong position.

No, IE's behaviour is extremely inconsistent and buggy.  This test 
actually works in IE.

<!DOCTYPE html>
<title>Autodiscovery</title>
<div>
   <link rel="alternate" type="application/atom+xml" 
href="http://lachy.id.au/log/feed">
   <p>This case still works in IE!
</div>

> I cannot understand why Firefox, Opera and Safari detect the links.

Because they have to deal with real world content.  For example, 
although this isn't a an autodiscovery link, see where Google have 
placed the prefetch link in this page.

http://www.google.com/search?q=Microsoft

<link rel="prefetch" href="http://www.microsoft.com/">

Because browsers have to handle all link elements the same way, 
regardless of their attributes, they also have to handle the equivalent 
for autodiscovery links.

-- 
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/





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Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) wrote:
> Parse Error! [
> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#parse ]
> 
> Quote
> 
> "The error handling for parse errors is well-defined: user agents
> must either act as described below when encountering such problems,
> or must abort processing at the first error that they encounter for
> which they do not wish to apply the rules described"

What's your point?  The first option is the way normal web browsers have 
to behave in the real world, the second, known as draconian error 
handling, is available for other types of UAs that aren't requried to 
gracefully recover from all errors.

-- 
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/




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Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) wrote:
> No. Authors take the responsibility to correct the mistakes. Browsers 
> should not help them to do so.

Sorry, browsers have to deal with the infinite number of legacy 
documents that already make an infinite number of mistakes. 
Significantly changing that behaviour is just not possible.

However, this is getting way off topic for this list.  If you have an 
issue with the way HTML5 error handling is being defined, I suggest you 
raise the issue on the WHATWG mailing list.

> I cannot imagine if <meta> and <title> are being used anywhere in a
> HTML document.

Here's one example.

http://au.lge.com/

Note the meta element that occurs within a <table>, of all places!

-- 
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/




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Subject: RE: Fwd: PaceResurrectAutodiscovery
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Sorry for a broken reply...

What I want to say is that <link> outside <head> causes a parse error which UAs can choose to correct or to abort processing; even though UAs choose to correct the error, it is still an error. 

Franklin

-----Original Message-----
From: Lachlan Hunt [mailto:lachlan.hunt@lachy.id.au] 
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 00:28
To: Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale)
Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: Fwd: PaceResurrectAutodiscovery

Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) wrote:
> Parse Error! [
> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#parse ]
> 
> Quote
> 
> "The error handling for parse errors is well-defined: user agents
> must either act as described below when encountering such problems,
> or must abort processing at the first error that they encounter for
> which they do not wish to apply the rules described"

What's your point?  The first option is the way normal web browsers have 
to behave in the real world, the second, known as draconian error 
handling, is available for other types of UAs that aren't requried to 
gracefully recover from all errors.

-- 
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/





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Subject: RE: PaceResurrectAutodiscovery
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> Sorry, browsers have to deal with the infinite number of legacy 
> documents that already make an infinite number of mistakes. 
> Significantly changing that behaviour is just not possible.

The IE team is correcting this kind of mistakes: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/08/29/457667.aspx.

It is possible that <link> and <meta> in places other than <head> may not get parsed in the future.

> Here's one example.

> http://au.lge.com/

Horrible! <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"> inside a table. But... meta name="description" and meta name="keywords" are in a correct location.

Franklin Tse

-----Original Message-----
From: Lachlan Hunt [mailto:lachlan.hunt@lachy.id.au] 
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 00:38
To: Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale)
Cc: 'atom-syntax'
Subject: Re: PaceResurrectAutodiscovery

Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) wrote:
> No. Authors take the responsibility to correct the mistakes. Browsers 
> should not help them to do so.

Sorry, browsers have to deal with the infinite number of legacy 
documents that already make an infinite number of mistakes. 
Significantly changing that behaviour is just not possible.

However, this is getting way off topic for this list.  If you have an 
issue with the way HTML5 error handling is being defined, I suggest you 
raise the issue on the WHATWG mailing list.

> I cannot imagine if <meta> and <title> are being used anywhere in a
> HTML document.

Here's one example.

http://au.lge.com/

Note the meta element that occurs within a <table>, of all places!

-- 
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/





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Subject: RE: PaceResurrectAutodiscovery
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== Correction ==

> The IE team is correcting this kind of mistakes: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/08/29/457667.aspx.
 
It should be " The IE team is removing support to this kind of mistakes

Franklin Tse

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale)
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 00:50
To: 'Lachlan Hunt'
Cc: 'atom-syntax'
Subject: RE: PaceResurrectAutodiscovery


> Sorry, browsers have to deal with the infinite number of legacy 
> documents that already make an infinite number of mistakes. 
> Significantly changing that behaviour is just not possible.

The IE team is correcting this kind of mistakes: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/08/29/457667.aspx.

It is possible that <link> and <meta> in places other than <head> may not get parsed in the future.

> Here's one example.

> http://au.lge.com/

Horrible! <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"> inside a table. But... meta name="description" and meta name="keywords" are in a correct location.

Franklin Tse

-----Original Message-----
From: Lachlan Hunt [mailto:lachlan.hunt@lachy.id.au] 
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 00:38
To: Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale)
Cc: 'atom-syntax'
Subject: Re: PaceResurrectAutodiscovery

Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) wrote:
> No. Authors take the responsibility to correct the mistakes. Browsers 
> should not help them to do so.

Sorry, browsers have to deal with the infinite number of legacy 
documents that already make an infinite number of mistakes. 
Significantly changing that behaviour is just not possible.

However, this is getting way off topic for this list.  If you have an 
issue with the way HTML5 error handling is being defined, I suggest you 
raise the issue on the WHATWG mailing list.

> I cannot imagine if <meta> and <title> are being used anywhere in a
> HTML document.

Here's one example.

http://au.lge.com/

Note the meta element that occurs within a <table>, of all places!

-- 
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/







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Subject: Re: Author element best practice
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On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 23:50:14 +0100, Sylvain Hellegouarch <sh@defuze.org> =
=20
wrote:

> [...] how would people feel about stating in the draft that the server
> MAY (SHOULD?) reject an Atom entry which would be invalid as per
> RFC 4287 ?

+1 to "MAY", -1 to "SHOULD".

> I think at least a MAY would give some weigh to implementors who wish t=
o
> be really strict regarding the input the allow.

The "be lenient in what you accept" rule should not apply for APP, imo. I=
f =20
APP implementations get too lenient, the output we get in the other end =20
will be even more lenient. Crap in, crap out, basically. So +1.

--=20
Asbj=F8rn Ulsberg     -=3D|=3D-    http://virtuelvis.com/quark/
=ABHe's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away=BB




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From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
Subject: Re: feed id's and paged/archive feeds
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 13:25:44 -0800
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Sorry, this got lost in my inbox...

I think they do, although the draft is silent on it. This is one of  
those areas where it would have been really nice if the WG had agreed  
to take on FH as part of the core, rather than extension; there are  
lots of little ambiguities like this as a result.

Cheers,


On 2006/11/03, at 1:37 PM, James M Snell wrote:

> Mark,
>
> I cannot recall if I've asked you this in the past but... if I have a
> set of paged/archive feed documents all of which make up a single
> logical feed, do the atom:id's for each feed document have be the  
> same?
>  If not, how do I determine the atom:id of the logical feed?
>
> - James


--
Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/




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From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
Subject: Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-08.txt 
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 13:23:03 -0800
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Based on feedback on-list and off, this draft:

1) Explicitly state that semantics of feeds with more than one type  
aren't defined by this specfiication
2) Added language about duplicate entries in archived feeds,  
effectively moving the algorithm in the appendix into prose in that  
section
3) Lower-cased the SHOULD requirement that as many relations as  
possible should be present
4) Strengthened statements about paged feeds being lossy
5) Moved RSS2 examples to appendix to make them more obviously non- 
normative

Diff at:
  http://www.mnot.net/drafts/draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-08- 
from-7.diff.html



Begin forwarded message:

> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> Date: 26 November 2006 12:50:01 PM
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-08.txt
> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
>
>
> 	Title		: Feed Paging and Archiving
> 	Author(s)	: M. Nottingham
> 	Filename	: draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-08.txt
> 	Pages		: 17
> 	Date		: 2006-11-26
> 	
> This specification defines three types of syndicated Web feeds that
>    enable publication of entries across one or more feed documents.
>
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nottingham-atompub-feed- 
> history-08.txt
>
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--
Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/




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Mark Nottingham wrote:
> [snip]
> I think they do, although the draft is silent on it.
> [snip]

Good enough for me.

Also, the latest draft looks good to me. Ship it!

Thanks Mark.

- James




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Subject: Re: Author element best practice
References: <4564305A.3000909@defuze.org> <7EF80F90-22E6-4D74-B2B8-C7E7416B1969@sun.com> <4564D426.7000502@defuze.org>
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-1. The current spec is fine as is.  It currently does not say anything
about whether or not the post entry MUST be valid although that is,
indeed the spirit of the spec.  The spec does not say that servers MUST
reject entries that are not valid.  Servers are free to accept or reject
entries as they see fit.  No change is necessary.

- James

Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote:
> Tim Bray wrote:
>> On Nov 22, 2006, at 3:11 AM, Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote:
>>
>>> Say I POST an atom:entry to a collection URI, this entry does not have
>>> an atom:author
>> If I were implementing the server, in this scenario I'd reject the post
>> with an error message.  It's hard for me to see a scenario where the
>> author info isn't already known and not providing it is still OK.  (In
>> fact, it's hard for me to imagine a scenario in which the author info
>> isn't already known, period.)  -Tim
> 
> Right.
> If we stretch this idea a little then, how would people feel about
> stating in the draft that the server MAY (SHOULD?) reject an Atom entry
> which would be invalid as per RFC 4287 ?
> 
> I think at least a MAY would give some weigh to implementors who wish to
> be really strict regarding the input the allow.
> 
> - Sylvain
> 
> 




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Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 20:52:16 -0800
From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
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To: Kornel Lesinski <kornel@osiolki.net>
CC: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: autodiscovery draft vs namespaces
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Kornel, thanks for the input. In the next rev of the draft (following
the initial reboot that should publish in a day or so) I'll see what I
can do to clarifying some of these issues.  As always, suggested spec
text is helpful and encouraged.  I will do my best to incorporate all
editorial changes.

- James

Kornel Lesinski wrote:
>=20
>=20
> I've noticed that draft-ietf-atompub-autodiscovery-01.txt doesn't
> mention XML namespaces and tag prefixes. XHTML can get even more comple=
x
> than memo suggests:
>=20
> <foo:link xmlns:foo=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" rel=3D"alternate"
> type=3D"application/atom+xml" href=3D"bar"></foo:link>
>=20
> My suggestion is that instead of specifying all quirks of X[HT]ML synta=
x:
> * require that XML parser is used for XHTML
> * if document turns out not to be well-formed (which often is the case
> with real-world "XHTML"), allow HTML parsing rules used as fallback
>=20
> And then simply state that in XHTML <link> element in
> "http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" namespace should be used. An example
> XPath expression or W3C DOM-based pseudocode might be very helpful ther=
e.
>=20
>=20
> BTW: in all examples attributes have always the same order. They could
> be shuffled to emphasise that order is not significant.
>=20
> --regards, Kornel Lesi=F1ski
>=20
>=20




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Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 07:39:41 +0000
From: Sylvain Hellegouarch <sh@defuze.org>
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        atom-syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: Re: Author element best practice
References: <4564305A.3000909@defuze.org> <7EF80F90-22E6-4D74-B2B8-C7E7416B1969@sun.com> <4564D426.7000502@defuze.org> <456A69D9.9020902@gmail.com>
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James M Snell wrote:
> -1. The current spec is fine as is.  It currently does not say anything
> about whether or not the post entry MUST be valid although that is,
> indeed the spirit of the spec.  The spec does not say that servers MUST
> reject entries that are not valid.  Servers are free to accept or reject
> entries as they see fit.  No change is necessary.

Well of course if you go from a MAY to a MUST...
Anyway, I agree with most comments until now that it is not a mandatory
step to add to the spec.

Mind you considering that RFC 4287 is very clear on what makes an Atom
entry a valid one I imagine APP servers which don't have the necessary
context will decide to reject the request altogether.

- Sylvain




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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------060104020401040607010103
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All:

With Phil Rignalda's permission, I have taken over the role of editor
for the Autodiscovery draft and at Lisa and Paul's suggestion I have
resubmitted the draft as an **individual** submission (as opposed to a
Working Group Draft).  Phil has requested that his name be removed from
the draft.

The process for moving forward on this spec will be the same as with
Atom and APP.  Change proposals will need to be submitted in the form of
Pace's on the wiki with a copy sent to atom-syntax.  Pace's need to
include spec ready text, when appropriate. When consensus emerges around
a particular pace, it will get incorporated into the draft.  Editorial
changes need not go through this process; just post a note to the
atom-syntax list and I'll make sure the change is made.

- James

-------- Original Message --------
A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.


	Title		: Atom Feed Autodiscovery
	Author(s)	: M. Pilgrim, J. Snell
	Filename	: draft-snell-atompub-autodiscovery-00.txt
	Pages		: 14
	Date		: 2006-11-27
	
   This document specifies a machine-readable method of linking to an
   Atom feed from a HyperText Markup Language (HTML) or Extensible
   HyperText Markup Language (XHTML) document, using the <link> element.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
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Why is one of the normative references in draft "draft-ietf-atompub-format-11" instead of "RFC4287"?

Franklin Tse

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of James M Snell
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 00:53
To: atom-syntax; atom-protocol
Subject: [Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-snell-atompub-autodiscovery-00.txt]

All:

With Phil Rignalda's permission, I have taken over the role of editor for the Autodiscovery draft and at Lisa and Paul's suggestion I have resubmitted the draft as an **individual** submission (as opposed to a Working Group Draft).  Phil has requested that his name be removed from the draft.

The process for moving forward on this spec will be the same as with Atom and APP.  Change proposals will need to be submitted in the form of Pace's on the wiki with a copy sent to atom-syntax.  Pace's need to include spec ready text, when appropriate. When consensus emerges around a particular pace, it will get incorporated into the draft.  Editorial changes need not go through this process; just post a note to the atom-syntax list and I'll make sure the change is made.

- James

-------- Original Message --------
A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.


	Title		: Atom Feed Autodiscovery
	Author(s)	: M. Pilgrim, J. Snell
	Filename	: draft-snell-atompub-autodiscovery-00.txt
	Pages		: 14
	Date		: 2006-11-27
	
   This document specifies a machine-readable method of linking to an
   Atom feed from a HyperText Markup Language (HTML) or Extensible
   HyperText Markup Language (XHTML) document, using the <link> element.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-autodiscovery-00.txt

To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message.
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Because I resubmitted the draft with no changes from its previous
version.  I intend to update references with the next iteration of the
draft.

- James

Tse Shing Chi (Franklin/Whale) wrote:
> Why is one of the normative references in draft "draft-ietf-atompub-format-11" instead of "RFC4287"?
> 
> Franklin Tse
> [snip]




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Hi Mark,

Given all the ambiguities, are there any implementations available to  
test against in practice?  Or even implementors planning to make the  
attempt?

- Ernie P.

On Nov 26, 2006, at 1:25 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote:

>
> Sorry, this got lost in my inbox...
>
> I think they do, although the draft is silent on it. This is one of  
> those areas where it would have been really nice if the WG had  
> agreed to take on FH as part of the core, rather than extension;  
> there are lots of little ambiguities like this as a result.
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> On 2006/11/03, at 1:37 PM, James M Snell wrote:
>
>> Mark,
>>
>> I cannot recall if I've asked you this in the past but... if I have a
>> set of paged/archive feed documents all of which make up a single
>> logical feed, do the atom:id's for each feed document have be the  
>> same?
>>  If not, how do I determine the atom:id of the logical feed?
>>
>> - James
>
>
> --
> Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/
>




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From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
Subject: Re: feed id's and paged/archive feeds
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Well, since you ask a leading question...

I have a demo implementation of a client at:
  http://www.mnot.net/rss/history/
and my blog does the server side:
  http://www.mnot.net/blog/index.atom

James Holderness has mentioned an implementation, and the Apache  
abdera people seem to be planning something, based on their  
repository. I know of other folks who are planning to integrate into  
products and services, but I can't disclose anything more (I'd  
encourage them to, of course). Anybody else?

The issue we're discussing here, though, isn't about ambiguities in  
*this* spec, but rather in Atom itself; i.e., what does a feed ID  
really identify?

Cheers,



On 2006/11/27, at 11:06 AM, Ernest Prabhakar wrote:

> Hi Mark,
>
> Given all the ambiguities, are there any implementations available  
> to test against in practice?  Or even implementors planning to make  
> the attempt?
>
> - Ernie P.
>
> On Nov 26, 2006, at 1:25 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>
>>
>> Sorry, this got lost in my inbox...
>>
>> I think they do, although the draft is silent on it. This is one  
>> of those areas where it would have been really nice if the WG had  
>> agreed to take on FH as part of the core, rather than extension;  
>> there are lots of little ambiguities like this as a result.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>>
>> On 2006/11/03, at 1:37 PM, James M Snell wrote:
>>
>>> Mark,
>>>
>>> I cannot recall if I've asked you this in the past but... if I  
>>> have a
>>> set of paged/archive feed documents all of which make up a single
>>> logical feed, do the atom:id's for each feed document have be the  
>>> same?
>>>  If not, how do I determine the atom:id of the logical feed?
>>>
>>> - James
>>
>>
>> --
>> Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/
>>
>


--
Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/




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On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 08:39:41 +0100, Sylvain Hellegouarch <sh@defuze.org> =
=20
wrote:

> Mind you considering that RFC 4287 is very clear on what makes an Atom
> entry a valid one I imagine APP servers which don't have the necessary
> context will decide to reject the request altogether.

Am I the only one pondering and worrying about what the different server =
=20
implementations will respond to invalid client requests (as, for example,=
 =20
an invalid Atom document)? How can the client implementors be =20
interoperable and compatible with each other and every server =20
implementation if the specification says absolutely nothing about what to=
 =20
expect when something goes wrong?

HTTP covers some of the possible errors one might encounter, but I believ=
e =20
there are several cases in APP where errors might occur that HTTP does no=
t =20
cover and that server implementors will treat very differently. In most =20
server application frameworks, unhandled exceptions give the response "50=
0 =20
Server Error". Is that the appropriate response to give on most errors? =20
Which errors should yield which 4xx response? Is this not an issue? How =20
can a client tell the user how to correct something if the client have no=
 =20
idea what response to expect from the server?

--=20
Asbj=F8rn Ulsberg     -=3D|=3D-    http://virtuelvis.com/quark/
=ABHe's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away=BB




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Mark Nottingham wrote:
> James Holderness has mentioned an implementation

Snarfer added support for feed history a while back, so it doesn't recognise 
the new archive link relations that were added in recent versions. We 
probably will consider supporting them in a future release if there is 
significant adoption on the server side, but so far most of the major 
implementations I've encountered have been using one of the older 
variations, so we haven't had any incentive to change things yet.

Regards
James




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Abdera has basic support for the extension elements and the paging links
(including prev-archive and next-archive).  It does not yet include an
implementation of the feed reconstruction algorithm but will shortly.
The implementation is part of the optional extensions module.

- James

Mark Nottingham wrote:
> Well, since you ask a leading question...
> 
> I have a demo implementation of a client at:
>  http://www.mnot.net/rss/history/
> and my blog does the server side:
>  http://www.mnot.net/blog/index.atom
> 
> James Holderness has mentioned an implementation, and the Apache abdera
> people seem to be planning something, based on their repository. I know
> of other folks who are planning to integrate into products and services,
> but I can't disclose anything more (I'd encourage them to, of course).
> Anybody else?
> 
> The issue we're discussing here, though, isn't about ambiguities in
> *this* spec, but rather in Atom itself; i.e., what does a feed ID really
> identify?
> 
> Cheers,
> [snip]




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Also, the MediaRSS module references it as a best practice.

When I started working on it, there was interest from server-side  
folks as well (e.g., Six Apart); AFAIK they're just waiting for it to  
be finalised (it's taken a while).

Cheers,



On 2006/11/27, at 11:18 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote:

>
> Well, since you ask a leading question...
>
> I have a demo implementation of a client at:
>  http://www.mnot.net/rss/history/
> and my blog does the server side:
>  http://www.mnot.net/blog/index.atom
>
> James Holderness has mentioned an implementation, and the Apache  
> abdera people seem to be planning something, based on their  
> repository. I know of other folks who are planning to integrate  
> into products and services, but I can't disclose anything more (I'd  
> encourage them to, of course). Anybody else?
>
> The issue we're discussing here, though, isn't about ambiguities in  
> *this* spec, but rather in Atom itself; i.e., what does a feed ID  
> really identify?
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> On 2006/11/27, at 11:06 AM, Ernest Prabhakar wrote:
>
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> Given all the ambiguities, are there any implementations available  
>> to test against in practice?  Or even implementors planning to  
>> make the attempt?
>>
>> - Ernie P.
>>
>> On Nov 26, 2006, at 1:25 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Sorry, this got lost in my inbox...
>>>
>>> I think they do, although the draft is silent on it. This is one  
>>> of those areas where it would have been really nice if the WG had  
>>> agreed to take on FH as part of the core, rather than extension;  
>>> there are lots of little ambiguities like this as a result.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2006/11/03, at 1:37 PM, James M Snell wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mark,
>>>>
>>>> I cannot recall if I've asked you this in the past but... if I  
>>>> have a
>>>> set of paged/archive feed documents all of which make up a single
>>>> logical feed, do the atom:id's for each feed document have be  
>>>> the same?
>>>>  If not, how do I determine the atom:id of the logical feed?
>>>>
>>>> - James
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/
>


--
Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/




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* Asbj=C3=B8rn Ulsberg <asbjorn@tigerstaden.no> [2006-11-27 20:55]:
> Am I the only one pondering and worrying about what the
> different server implementations will respond to invalid client
> requests (as, for example, an invalid Atom document)? How can
> the client implementors be interoperable and compatible with
> each other and every server implementation if the specification
> says absolutely nothing about what to expect when something
> goes wrong?
>=20
> HTTP covers some of the possible errors one might encounter,
> but I believe there are several cases in APP where errors might
> occur that HTTP does not cover and that server implementors
> will treat very differently. In most server application
> frameworks, unhandled exceptions give the response "500 Server
> Error". Is that the appropriate response to give on most
> errors? Which errors should yield which 4xx response? Is this
> not an issue? How can a client tell the user how to correct
> something if the client have no idea what response to expect
> from the server?

I get your concern and to some extent I share it, but I=E2=80=99m unsure
about how it could be addressed. If we assume that servers can
implement wildly different feature sets and special cases, then
there is a huge number of conditions which the server would need
to be able to somehow signal. I don=E2=80=99t know how we can allow for
that. A special error document XML vocabulary for those cases
where the HTTP status is not granular enough would be an option.
Some document making suggestions about what error status codes to
use in which circumstances could also help unify expectations.
But the scope of any such endeavour will be huge=E2=80=A6

Regards,
--=20
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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James M Snell wrote:
> The process for moving forward on this spec will be the same as with
> Atom and APP.  

No, it won't. It's not a WG document.

Does the draft diverge from existing browser behavior? Do browsers 
implement aspects of the document differently? What problems have you 
seen that make standardization necessary?

Without some evidence that the document serves a purpose, I'm afraid I 
don't see the point.

- Rob

P.S. -- the author affiliation information in the draft appears to be 
inaccurate.




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Robert Sayre wrote:
> James M Snell wrote:
>> The process for moving forward on this spec will be the same as with
>> Atom and APP.  
> 
> No, it won't. It's not a WG document.
> 

Ok, to be absolutely pedantic about it: the process will be as close as
possible to that used for Atom/APP with the obvious exception that it is
an individual submission and not a WG draft. Pace's to the wiki;
discussion on the mailing list; Consensus calls will be posted
periodically; I will be tallying the results; anyone can challenge if
they feel the need; the entire process will be done out in the open.

> Does the draft diverge from existing browser behavior? Do browsers
> implement aspects of the document differently? What problems have you
> seen that make standardization necessary?
> 

I dunno... you're the one that that writes browser code, you tell me.

You certainly seemed to think it was a good fit before. In fact, on
January 19 of this year you posted [1]:

  "I think the current draft reflects what implementations
   do pretty well"

> Without some evidence that the document serves a purpose, I'm afraid I
> don't see the point.
> 

You seemed to think it served a purpose last January [2].

The only changes that have been made to the document since your post
requesting that it be unexpired and finished is the expiration date and
the name of the editor.  Perhaps it's the latter change that has you
wondering whether this suddenly may not be worth standardizing?

[1] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg17716.html
[2] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg17713.html

> - Rob
> 
> P.S. -- the author affiliation information in the draft appears to be
> inaccurate.
> 

How so?  Given that my volunteering to serve as the editor of this
document has nothing to do with my day job it would be inappropriate and
dishonest for me to associate my employers name with the work.

- James




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James M Snell wrote:
> Consensus calls will be posted
> periodically; 
>   

That's not a process I can live with. Maybe this draft would be a better 
fit for the WHAT-WG or the W3C.

>> Does the draft diverge from existing browser behavior? Do browsers
>> implement aspects of the document differently? What problems have you
>> seen that make standardization necessary?
>>
>>     
>
> I dunno... you're the one that that writes browser code, you tell me.
>   

I don't think it's a problem worth solving, absent any evidence to the 
contrary. Mozilla doesn't seem to get many bug reports on this matter.

> You certainly seemed to think it was a good fit before. 

I changed my mind later on.

>>     
>
> How so?  Given that my volunteering to serve as the editor of this
> document has nothing to do with my day job it would be inappropriate and
> dishonest for me to associate my employers name with the work.

We all participate in the IETF as individuals. Affiliations are a 
professional courtesy.

-Rob




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Robert Sayre wrote:
>>[snip]
>> I dunno... you're the one that that writes browser code, you tell me.
>>   
> I don't think it's a problem worth solving, absent any evidence to the
> contrary. Mozilla doesn't seem to get many bug reports on this matter.
> 
>> You certainly seemed to think it was a good fit before. 
> 
> I changed my mind later on.
> 

Fair enough.  We'll see if others agree; I'm not in any particular rush
nor do I see any particular reason why this should be moved to some
other venue.

- James




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I personally just think it's way too early for us to really be able to
say much about it.  So far the APP implementations that have actually
been deployed seem to work rather consistently in that I can get a
single client (e.g. Abdera) to work with each with very little effort
and only minor variations (e.g. different auth schemes, some require
Content-Length on the post, others don't, some reject invalid entries,
others don't, etc).  Based on my experience thus far, I really don't
think it is going to be much of a problem.

- James

Asbj=F8rn Ulsberg wrote:
> [snip]
> Am I the only one pondering and worrying about what the different serve=
r
> implementations will respond to invalid client requests (as, for
> example, an invalid Atom document)? How can the client implementors be
> interoperable and compatible with each other and every server
> implementation if the specification says absolutely nothing about what
> to expect when something goes wrong?
> [snip]




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Well I share the concern because while developing amplee I ran into
issues like that. My conclusion was to apply HTTP error handling where I
could and where it made sense and leave the rest to the application
developer using amplee.

For instance return one of the 4xx error code when I meeting the
condition for it (missing Content-Length or Content-Type, etc.)

Since I started this thread I thought about it and I realized that an
APP implementation could not foresee how it would be used and in which
context. Thus it cannot safely make a decision in every use case. What
amplee does is to provide callbacks to the developer who can then decide
how to proceed.

- Sylvain

James M Snell wrote:
> I personally just think it's way too early for us to really be able to
> say much about it.  So far the APP implementations that have actually
> been deployed seem to work rather consistently in that I can get a
> single client (e.g. Abdera) to work with each with very little effort
> and only minor variations (e.g. different auth schemes, some require
> Content-Length on the post, others don't, some reject invalid entries,
> others don't, etc).  Based on my experience thus far, I really don't
> think it is going to be much of a problem.
>=20
> - James
>=20
> Asbj=F8rn Ulsberg wrote:
>> [snip]
>> Am I the only one pondering and worrying about what the different serv=
er
>> implementations will respond to invalid client requests (as, for
>> example, an invalid Atom document)? How can the client implementors be
>> interoperable and compatible with each other and every server
>> implementation if the specification says absolutely nothing about what
>> to expect when something goes wrong?
>> [snip]




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From: Rogers Cadenhead <rcade@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-snell-atompub-autodiscovery-00.txt]
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I'm the chairman of the RSS Advisory Board, which has
published our first autodiscovery specification [1].
I'd like to participate in the drafting of Atom's
effort in this area with the goal of making it
possible for publishers to support autodiscovery in
the same manner regardless of syndication format.

Our original spec said that it could be used with RSS
1.0, RSS 2.0 and Atom, but the Atom guidance was
removed to get out of your way as your spec is being
drafted.

I will put a couple of proposals on the wiki this
morning.

Regarding your current draft, a couple of editorial
suggestions:

1.

Are the "most relevant rules" part of Sections 3.2 and
"most relevant differences" part of 3.3 necessary?
It's helpful information, but it documents behavior
that's covered by the HTML and XHTML specs, so it
seems redundant and makes your spec longer than it
needs to be.

2.

The href attribute's section is out of order
alphabetically. For easier reference, I'd order
sections 4.1 through 4.3 as href, rel and type rather
than rel, type, href.

3.

Your introduction to autodiscovery doesn't describe
the most common and popular implementation of the
technique.

Your graf:

Autodiscovered Atom feeds may be presented to the user
in a variety of other ways.  In the past, Atom-enabled
clients have implemented local proxies that monitor
visited web sites and notify the end user of
autodiscovered Atom feeds in real time.  Such
notification is also built directly into some desktop
web browsers.

My suggested rewrite:

Autodiscovered Atom feeds can be presented to the user
in a variety
of other ways.  Current versions of the Microsoft
Internet Explorer
and Mozilla Firefox browsers notify users of the
presence of such a
feed by displaying an orange feed icon in the
browser's address bar.
Clicking the icon initiates the process of subscribing
to the feed.

1: http://www.rssboard.org/rss-autodiscovery




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James M Snell wrote:
> Fair enough.  We'll see if others agree; I'm not in any particular rush
> nor do I see any particular reason why this should be moved to some
> other venue.
>   

Hmm, looks like WHAT-WG has picked it up already:

http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#alternate0

That's the document of record, as far as I'm concerned. I don't see why
the IETF should or would get involved here.

- Rob




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Rogers,

Thanks for taking a look. Some comments.

Rogers Cadenhead wrote:
> [snip]
> Our original spec said that it could be used with RSS
> 1.0, RSS 2.0 and Atom, but the Atom guidance was
> removed to get out of your way as your spec is being
> drafted.
> 

After going through and reviewing the WHATWG and RSS Board work last
night, I am strongly leaning in favor of moving this draft forward as an
Informational RFC rather than on the Standards Track.  The difference
between the two is that an Informational RFC is not a normative
specification.  This will give us a bit more leeway to include
information about RSS and pointers over to the WHATWG work.  The bottom
line is that, if the RSS Board is willing, the stuff you've done could
likely be folded into this document.

> I will put a couple of proposals on the wiki this
> morning.
> 

I see PaceRestrictRelValuesForAutodiscovery and
PaceRestrictTypeValuesForAutodiscovery.  I will comment on these separately.

> Regarding your current draft, a couple of editorial
> suggestions:
> 
> 1.
> 
> Are the "most relevant rules" part of Sections 3.2 and
> "most relevant differences" part of 3.3 necessary?
> It's helpful information, but it documents behavior
> that's covered by the HTML and XHTML specs, so it
> seems redundant and makes your spec longer than it
> needs to be.
> 

Well... on the one hand it is redundant; on the other it is helpful,
particularly in an informational document whose purpose is to describe
the best way of implementing autodiscovery.  However, I definitely think
the format could be reworked a bit.

> 2.
> 
> The href attribute's section is out of order
> alphabetically. For easier reference, I'd order
> sections 4.1 through 4.3 as href, rel and type rather
> than rel, type, href.
> 

Noted

> 3.
> 
> Your introduction to autodiscovery doesn't describe
> the most common and popular implementation of the
> technique.
> 

Yeah, this document was originally authored before that use case really
started to emerge.  I'll definitely add something about it to the intro
but I may not use your suggested words verbatim (I specifically want to
avoid mention of specific vendors).

- James




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http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceMakeAutodiscoveryInformational

#pragma section-numbers off

== Abstract ==

Move Autodiscovery forward as an Informational RFC

== Status ==

Proposed

== Rationale ==

At this point there seems to be very little reason for the autodiscovery
draft to be on the Standards Track.  An Informational RFC would appear
to be the most appropriate way forward.

== Proposal ==

Change the status of the autodiscovery draft to Informational.

== Impacts ==



== Notes ==


----

CategoryProposals




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http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceRestrictRelValuesForAutodiscovery
http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceRestrictTypeValuesForAutodiscovery

While I definitely understand the rationale behind this, it's unlikely
that the spec will actually lead to any change in behavior for the
various implementations.  Also, if memory serves correctly, media types
are inherently case-insensitive. We'd likely be better served to
document that as a best practice, the rel and type values should be
lower case but that many implementations will typically support upper
and mixed case values.

- James

p.s. I also note that the current HTML5 draft contains an editorial note
about needing to say something about the case sensitivity of attribute
values.




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James M Snell wrote:
> http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceMakeAutodiscoveryInformational
> 
> Move Autodiscovery forward as an Informational RFC

But if it were published as an informational RFC, what purpose would it 
serve?

I intend to post a much more substantial review of the current draft 
shortly, but for now, see my comments on the RSS Autodiscovery spec, 
some of which will also apply to the Atom Autodiscovery spec.

http://www.rssboard.org/news/70/vote-rss-autodiscovery-specification#discuss

-- 
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/




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Subject: Re: PaceMakeAutodiscoveryInformational
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On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 17:37:03 +0100, James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>  
wrote:
> == Proposal ==
>
> Change the status of the autodiscovery draft to Informational.

+1


-- 
Anne van Kesteren
<http://annevankesteren.nl/>
<http://www.opera.com/>




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Lachlan Hunt wrote:
>[snip]
>> Move Autodiscovery forward as an Informational RFC
> 
> But if it were published as an informational RFC, what purpose would it
> serve?
> 

To document best practice as it relates specifically to syndication
feeds.  For example, HTML5 says nothing about whether the relative order
of feed autodiscovery links within a document is significant.  The Atom
autodiscovery draft, however, defines that the order is significant.

> I intend to post a much more substantial review of the current draft
> shortly, but for now, see my comments on the RSS Autodiscovery spec,
> some of which will also apply to the Atom Autodiscovery spec.
> 

Excellent. FWIW, I agree with just about all of your comments.

- James




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Subject: Re: PaceMakeAutodiscoveryInformational
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 17:37:35 +0000
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On 28 Nov 2006, at 16:37, James M Snell wrote:

> == Proposal ==
>
> Change the status of the autodiscovery draft to Informational.

+1

There's really no need for it to be a standard, as it's widely  
implemented in a common way.


- Geoffrey Sneddon





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James M Snell wrote:
>
> Lachlan Hunt wrote:
>   
>> [snip]
>>     
>>> Move Autodiscovery forward as an Informational RFC
>>>       
>> But if it were published as an informational RFC, what purpose would it
>> serve?
>>
>>     
>
> To document best practice as it relates specifically to syndication
> feeds.  

The draft makes several requirements. That's not documenting best practice.

> For example, HTML5 says nothing about whether the relative order
> of feed autodiscovery links within a document is significant.  The Atom
> autodiscovery draft, however, defines that the order is significant.
>   

Which software does that requirement concern?

- Rob




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Robert Sayre wrote:
>> [snip]
>> To document best practice as it relates specifically to syndication
>> feeds.
>
> The draft makes several requirements. That's not documenting best
> practice.
> [snip]

If the doc is changed to informative, the normative requirements in the
draft would need to be relaxed and/or refactored to describe current and
best practice.

I didn't write the doc so please don't complain to me about what's in
there.  If there is something that needs to be changed write up a pace.

- James




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James M Snell wrote:
> I didn't write the doc so please don't complain to me about what's in
> there.  If there is something that needs to be changed write up a pace.
>   

Uh, no. I don't think you should write it at all, and I resent having to 
waste my time following this completely redundant effort to make sure it 
doesn't do damage by making requirements that would break backwards 
compatibility with previous Firefox versions.

The WHAT-WG text is fine.

- Rob




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I do believe that participation in this discussion is optional, as is
choosing whether or not to support any particular IETF draft
(informational or otherwise) so there is absolutely no need (or desire)
for you to "waste" your time here.  Your opinion that the document is
unnecessary has been noted.  Thanks for the input.

- James

Robert Sayre wrote:
> James M Snell wrote:
>> I didn't write the doc so please don't complain to me about what's in
>> there.  If there is something that needs to be changed write up a pace.
>>   
> 
> Uh, no. I don't think you should write it at all, and I resent having to
> waste my time following this completely redundant effort to make sure it
> doesn't do damage by making requirements that would break backwards
> compatibility with previous Firefox versions.
> 
> The WHAT-WG text is fine.
> 
> - Rob
> 




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From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
Subject: Re: PaceResurrectAutodiscovery
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 11:05:41 -0800
To: Henri Sivonen <hsivonen@iki.fi>
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On 24 Nov 2006, at 01:44, Henri Sivonen wrote:
> On Nov 23, 2006, at 22:42, Henry Story wrote:
>
>> This is very nice, in that it opens up the possibility of placing  
>> good RDF descriptions of these links at the http://www.iana.org/ 
>> assignments/relation/,
>
> How could new link relations be described in RDF to such a degree  
> that the description would actually be useful for software  
> processing but simple enough to actually be implemented? Is it  
> realistic to have UAs whacking IANA server effectively performing a  
> DDoS on it?

Just some interesting uses of this beyond your question:

- The RDF file would serve as a useful machine readable description  
of the relation, and so serve as documentation.
- This would simply make those terms re-useable in other rdf  
vocabularies, which could be very useful. Do you have an RDF file  
that needs the notion of an alternate link? Well just use elements  
from that vocabulary.

But to get to your point:

The description on the server would probably not be very advanced. It  
would probably be very simple, like the Dublin Core vocabulary  
( http://dublincore.org/ ). And so you are right this would probably  
not say much more than that :alternate is a relation. Perhaps one  
could even specify the Domain and the Range of the relation to be  
documents.

Not much that one could automate. The default relations would rarely  
change, so User Agents would never query the server directly, and so  
you would not have a DDoS on them.

On the other hand, clients wanting to define new relations (as URLs)  
could place the definitions of these relations on their server, and  
say some more interesting things such as

<http://my.eg.com/rel#entry> rdfs:subPropertyOf <http://iana.org/ 
assignments/relation/alternate> .

The user agent would now know that this new entry relation is also an  
alternate relation. Perhaps this could save having to place both  
relations inside of every document.


>> as well as making the link relation very extensible (people who  
>> want to try out new link relations, can just use their own,  
>> unambiguous url).
>
> How are full URIs distinguished from strings that need to be  
> appended to "http://www.iana.org/assignments/relation/" to obtain  
> the full URI? Are UAs supposed to look for a colon as with XForms  
> input methods? Where is this specified?

This is specified in the atom syntax document.

[[

The value of "rel" MUST be a string that is non-empty and matches  
either the "isegment-nz-nc" or the "IRI" production in [RFC3987].  
Note that use of a relative reference other than a simple name is not  
allowed. If a name is given, implementations MUST consider the link  
relation type equivalent to the same name registered within the IANA  
Registry of Link Relations (Section 7), and thus to the IRI that  
would be obtained by appending the value of the rel attribute to the  
string "http://www.iana.org/assignments/relation/". The value of  
"rel" describes the meaning of the link, but does not impose any  
behavioral requirements on Atom Processors.

]] http://www.atompub.org/rfc4287.html#rfc.section.4.2.7.2

>
> In practice people seem to want to use one-word link relations even  
> when they are coming up with their own.

Yes. My guess is that this is because

1. They probably don't think of the issue of name clashes
2. There is no shorthand way of saying something like iana:alternate
3. There is no behavior associated with the name

If the relation pointed to a document that could have some behavioral  
impact on the browser with the user could adjust by doing something  
at the url of the relation, then there would be an immediate  
understanding of the value of using URIs.

>> I would recommend you adopt that too. Perhaps you can even adopt  
>> the iana name space. If we could get them to put the appropriate  
>> rdf document at that location, people who created/coined new link  
>> relations could describe these relations as being superproperties  
>> or subroperties of relations the browser already knows, which  
>> would allow the browser to partially interpret those.
>
> Well, RDF is not viewed that favorably by the WHATWG. Also, the  
> barrier for entry for the IANA registration process is likely too  
> high. (It certainly is for MIME types.) As for using the same  
> namespace, the HTML5 definitions for the link types don't  
> necessarily match the Atom definitions.

I believe I have a good explanation for why people may have good  
reasons to dislike RDF/XML.
see: http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/crystalizing_rdf

> Recently, a WHATWG-managed registry for HTML5 rel values has been  
> discussed informally. The idea was that conformance checkers could  
> consult an online registry instead of only allowing a fixed list of  
> values or allowing everything. RDF is an overkill for this. Even  
> XMDP isn't the simplest thing that could possibly work. The  
> simplest thing that could possibly work is a GETtable text/plain;  
> charset=utf-8 resource at a well-known URI with one rel value per  
> LF-separated line.

Look at the Turtle notation for RDF. It is very simple to parse.
The advantage of using RDF is that it you don't have to re-invent a  
semantics. Even if simple it would be helpful to help people get  
familiar with the technology.

Henry

>
> -- 
> Henri Sivonen
> hsivonen@iki.fi
> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/
>




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James M Snell wrote:
> I do believe that participation in this discussion is optional, as is
> choosing whether or not to support any particular IETF draft
> (informational or otherwise) so there is absolutely no need (or desire)
> for you to "waste" your time here.  

Nonsense. You know very well that projects I work on will get bug 
reports on "standards" compliance if you change something. So, yes, I do 
have to waste my time here. Since I maintain autodiscovery code people 
actually use, you'd think my opinion would count for something.

== Abstract ==

Don't move forward with the autodiscovery draft.

== Status ==

Proposed

== Rationale ==

At this point there seems to be no reason for the autodiscovery draft to 
exist, since the WHAT-WG has ably covered the subject in Web 
Applications 1.0.

http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#alternate0

Reasons given for the continued existence of the IETF draft have been 
non-technical doubletalk.

== Proposal ==

Stop work on the autodiscovery draft.

== Impacts ==

Reduces mailing list traffic and standards noise.




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+0. I have no particular agenda on this other than helping to move it
forward if that's what folks want.  I will note, however, that the
overall response to PaceResurrectAutodiscovery was positive and there
seemed (to me at least) to be interest in at least discussing the future
of the draft. So please stop trying so hard to kill it before folks get
a chance to actually think it over and discuss it.  Your opinion counts
but it's not the only one that matters.

- James

Robert Sayre wrote:
> [snip]
> 
> == Abstract ==
> 
> Don't move forward with the autodiscovery draft.
> 
> == Status ==
> 
> Proposed
> 
> == Rationale ==
> 
> At this point there seems to be no reason for the autodiscovery draft to
> exist, since the WHAT-WG has ably covered the subject in Web
> Applications 1.0.
> 
> http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#alternate0
> 
> Reasons given for the continued existence of the IETF draft have been
> non-technical doubletalk.
> 
> == Proposal ==
> 
> Stop work on the autodiscovery draft.
> 
> == Impacts ==
> 
> Reduces mailing list traffic and standards noise.
> 




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http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceRecommendFullURIsForAutodiscovery

Definite -1 on this one.  Buggy implementations just need to be fixed.
Writing specs to bugs is silly at best.

- James




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References: <454BB6A1.1050800@gmail.com> <3710ABAF-1C81-4982-9D24-78E1FA83EA44@mnot.net>
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Mark Nottingham wrote:
> 
> Sorry, this got lost in my inbox...
> 
> I think they do, although the draft is silent on it. This is one of 
> those areas where it would have been really nice if the WG had agreed to 
> take on FH as part of the core, rather than extension; there are lots of 
> little ambiguities like this as a result.

I doubt that would clear things up. This is a HTTP thing, not an Atom 
thing. My thinking on this matter is that Atom feeds aren't resources, 
they're representations. Specifically they're a hack/optimisation to 
deal model collections/iterators for HTTP. Anyone who really cares 
should try sending Atom over XMPP or email; it'll be clear enough that 
entrys matter, but feeds don't.

[An RDF modelling execise by the WG would have made it clear that feeds 
are problematic entities, but we'd probably be going into last call 
sometime the new year as a result.]

cheers
Bill




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2006/11/28, Robert Sayre:
>
> The WHAT-WG text is fine.

-1
For various reasons, including:
http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg19100.html
http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg19107.html

-- 
Thomas Broyer




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From: "Thomas Broyer" <t.broyer@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: PaceAutoDiscoveryDraftIsPointless (was: PaceMakeAutodiscoveryInformational)
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2006/11/28, Robert Sayre:
>
> Nonsense. You know very well that projects I work on will get bug
> reports on "standards" compliance if you change something. So, yes, I do
> have to waste my time here. Since I maintain autodiscovery code people
> actually use, you'd think my opinion would count for something.

If autodiscovery could be defined as in [1], I'd happy to see Firefox
(and IE7) have bug reports on "standards" compliance: I do not use
current autodiscovery implementations because I'm not confident in
their (undocumented) behavior (among other things, like integration
with external aggregators). I'd like autodiscovery documented
somewhere, but not as a documentation of current practices (which I
think are Bad Things), rather as "clean" way to do it.

However, if any spec (informational or not) tends to only document
what's already done, be sure I'll try to "kiil it before it's done".

-- 
Thomas Broyer




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From: "Edward O'Connor" <hober0@gmail.com>
Subject:  Re: PaceAutoDiscoveryDraftIsPointless
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Robert Sayre wrote:
>
> Don't move forward with the autodiscovery draft.
[...]
> At this point there seems to be no reason for the autodiscovery draft
> to exist, since the WHAT-WG has ably covered the subject in Web
> Applications 1.0.

I am worried that there are three simultaneous efforts to spec out feed
autodiscovery: WA1, the RSS board's recent spec, and this draft. Ideally
this stuff would get specced just once. WHAT WG seems like a neutral
ground, syndication-format wise, so perhaps they're best positioned to
spec feed autodiscovery in a way that makes everybody happy.


Ted

-- 
Edward O'Connor
hober0@gmail.com

Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem.




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Edward O'Connor wrote:
> I am worried that there are three simultaneous efforts to spec out feed
> autodiscovery: WA1, the RSS board's recent spec, and this draft. Ideally
> this stuff would get specced just once. WHAT WG seems like a neutral
> ground, syndication-format wise, so perhaps they're best positioned to
> spec feed autodiscovery in a way that makes everybody happy.
>   

Not only that, they are actually qualified to spec changes to HTML, 
which is what this is.

-Rob




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Heh.. I probably should not have been taking a drink when I read this
last sentence :-).  You do know that we're talking about the
*syndication community* right?

- James

Edward O'Connor wrote:
> [snip] ... feed autodiscovery in a way that makes everybody happy.
> 
> 
> Ted
> 




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Subject: Re: PaceAutoDiscoveryDraftIsPointless
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Robert Sayre wrote:
> 
> Edward O'Connor wrote:
>> I am worried that there are three simultaneous efforts to spec out feed
>> autodiscovery: WA1, the RSS board's recent spec, and this draft. Ideally
>> this stuff would get specced just once. WHAT WG seems like a neutral
>> ground, syndication-format wise, so perhaps they're best positioned to
>> spec feed autodiscovery in a way that makes everybody happy.
>>   
> 
> Not only that, they are actually qualified to spec changes to HTML,
> which is what this is.
> 
> -Rob

If autodiscovery is only a browser feature then indeed it has nothing to
do here. But is it only meant for browsers?

- Sylvain




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James M Snell wrote:
> http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceRecommendFullURIsForAutodiscovery
>
> Definite -1 on this one.  Buggy implementations just need to be fixed.
> Writing specs to bugs is silly at best.
>   

The link element is specified by HTML4/5.

-Rob




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James M Snell wrote:
> Heh.. I probably should not have been taking a drink when I read this
> last sentence :-).  You do know that we're talking about the
> *syndication community* right?
>   

Actually, it's an HTML issue, so I don't see why the RSS Board or the 
Atom list or any incarnation of the "syndication community" would be an 
appropriate venue.

-Rob




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Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote:
> If autodiscovery is only a browser feature then indeed it has nothing to
> do here. But is it only meant for browsers?
>   

Browsers are surely the primary target, but bots and other HTML UAs make 
use of it. Both uses are covered by the people working on HTML, in the 
WHAT-WG and the W3C.

-Rob




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Lachlan Hunt wrote:
>
> http://www.rssboard.org/news/70/vote-rss-autodiscovery-specification#discuss 
>

"Like the Atom Autodiscovery draft, this spec serves no purpose. 
Autodiscovery is being defined in the HTML5 spec where it belongs, with 
both the alternate 
<http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#alternate0> and feed 
<http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#feed0> relationships."

Fully agree.

-Rob




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Ok, so given that I think this is the fifth or sixth note in which
you've said exactly the same thing, I think your position has been well
established.  What would be excellent is if you'd give others the
opportunity to weigh in on it before trying so hard to filibuster it.

- James

Robert Sayre wrote:
> Lachlan Hunt wrote:
>>
>> http://www.rssboard.org/news/70/vote-rss-autodiscovery-specification#discuss
>>
> 
> "Like the Atom Autodiscovery draft, this spec serves no purpose.
> Autodiscovery is being defined in the HTML5 spec where it belongs, with
> both the alternate
> <http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#alternate0> and feed
> <http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#feed0> relationships."
> 
> Fully agree.
> 
> -Rob
> 
> 




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From: Rogers Cadenhead <rcade@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: PaceAutoDiscoveryDraftIsPointless (was: PaceMakeAutodiscoveryInformational)
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If the Atom/RSS autodiscovery spec describes how to
work with the link element to achieve feed
autodiscovery in browsers and other clients, isn't it
an application of (X)HTML rather than an attempt to
specify (X)HTML?

My thinking was that we're accomplishing a task
similar to the creators of the Robots Exclusion meta
tag [1] -- put X values in element Y to achieve effect
Z.

1: http://www.robotstxt.org/wc/exclusion.html#meta




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James M Snell wrote:
> Ok, so given that I think this is the fifth or sixth note in which
> you've said exactly the same thing, I think your position has been well
> established.  What would be excellent is if you'd give others the
> opportunity to weigh in on it before trying so hard to filibuster it.
>   

Huh? I'm not sure what you mean--you send way more messages than I do. 
I'm merely pointing out facts.

I think the following entry from the WHAT-WG blog might be of use here.

http://blog.whatwg.org/proposing-features

Here are some key things that any proposal should include:

 * What is the problem you are trying to solve
 * What is the feature you are suggesting to help solve it?
 * What is the processing model for that feature, including error 
handling? This should be very clear, including things such as event 
timing if the feature involves events, how to create graphs representing 
the data in the case of semantic proposals, etc
 * Why do you think browsers would implement this feature
 * Why do you think authors would use this feature?

- Rob




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James M Snell wrote:
> Ok, so given that I think this is the fifth or sixth note in which
> you've said exactly the same thing, I think your position has been well
> established.  What would be excellent is if you'd give others the
> opportunity to weigh in on it before trying so hard to filibuster it.
>   

This looks like an inappropriate personal attack to me. Surely James has 
been warned about this in the past?

- Rob





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On Nov 28, 2006, at 22:11, Edward O'Connor wrote:

> WHAT WG seems like a neutral ground, syndication-format wise, so  
> perhaps they're best positioned to spec feed autodiscovery in a way  
> that makes everybody happy.

+1 for leaving speccing this to the WHATWG.

-- 
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen@iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/





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Ted,

Please correct me if I get any of this incorrect, but for the sake of
the discussion I wanted to summarize the HTML5 [1][2] definitions here:

The following three links are equivalent to one another and specify that
the linked feed is an alternate representation of the page.

 <link rel="alternate" type="application/atom+xml" href="..." />
 <link rel="alternate feed" type="application/atom+xml" href="..." />
 <link rel="feed alternate" type="application/atom+xml" href="..." />

This means, for instance, if the links appear on a blog home page that
lists the 10 most recent entries, the feed will likely also be a listing
of the 10 most recent entries.  However, if the link appears on a page
that shows a single entry along with a listing of comments that have
been received, the link will likely point to an Atom feed listing that
entry and it's various comments.  Is that correct?

HTML 5 defines the "feed" relation as pointing to a feed that is not
necessarily an alternative representation of the page where it is found.
 This relation can, for instance, be used on a blog home page to point
to a comments feed or category feed.

 <link rel="feed" type="application/atom+xml" href="..." />

What I did not see in the HTML5 spec is any indication of whether the
order of link relations is significant.  I'm assuming that means that it
is not.  I'm also assuming that means that all "alternate feed" link
relations, with the same type attribute value, appearing anywhere within
the document are considered to be equivalent?

- James

[1] http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#alternate0
[2] http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#feed0

Edward O'Connor wrote:
> Robert Sayre wrote:
>> Don't move forward with the autodiscovery draft.
> [...]
>> At this point there seems to be no reason for the autodiscovery draft
>> to exist, since the WHAT-WG has ably covered the subject in Web
>> Applications 1.0.
> 
> I am worried that there are three simultaneous efforts to spec out feed
> autodiscovery: WA1, the RSS board's recent spec, and this draft. Ideally
> this stuff would get specced just once. WHAT WG seems like a neutral
> ground, syndication-format wise, so perhaps they're best positioned to
> spec feed autodiscovery in a way that makes everybody happy.
> 
> 
> Ted
> 




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From: Geoffrey Sneddon <foolistbar@googlemail.com>
Subject: Re: PaceRecommendFullURIsForAutodiscovery
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 22:09:13 +0000
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On 28 Nov 2006, at 21:01, Robert Sayre wrote:

>
> James M Snell wrote:
>> http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/ 
>> PaceRecommendFullURIsForAutodiscovery
>>
>> Definite -1 on this one.  Buggy implementations just need to be  
>> fixed.
>> Writing specs to bugs is silly at best.
>>
>
> The link element is specified by HTML4/5.
>
> -Rob

Neither recommends an absolute URL, as that does.


- Geoffrey Sneddon





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Rogers Cadenhead wrote:
> My thinking was that we're accomplishing a task
> similar to the creators of the Robots Exclusion meta
> tag [1] -- put X values in element Y to achieve effect
> Z.
>   

Hmm, have to disagree. The behavior is already well-documented, so this 
isn't accomplishing much. This effort is similar to rewriting the robots 
exclusion meta tag document. Is there some aspect of the WHAT-WG 
document that bothers you? Why not provide feedback there?

http://whatwg.org/mailing-list

The feedback you received from WHAT-WG members on the RSS Board blog was 
extremely detailed and accurate.

- Rob




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--- Robert Sayre <rsayre@mozilla.com> wrote:
> Is there some aspect of the WHAT-WG document that
> bothers you?

Not yet, aside from the notion that they've got an
incredibly ambitious goal -- spec the next
HTML/XHTML/DOM -- and I have no idea how to gauge the
likelihood they'll achieve it. Or whether they'll
respect current autodiscovery functionality in MSIE 7
and Firefox 2.0.

> Why not provide feedback there?

I will if that's where autodiscovery goes.

But I'm +1 on PaceMakeAutodiscoveryInformational.
Seems like a good idea to tell Atom publishers how to
support autodiscovered feeds.




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James,

> Please correct me if I get any of this incorrect, but for the sake of
[...]
> What I did not see in the HTML5 spec is any indication of whether the
> order of link relations is significant. I'm assuming that means that
> it is not. I'm also assuming that means that all "alternate feed" link
> relations, with the same type attribute value, appearing anywhere
> within the document are considered to be equivalent?

These are good questions, but you and I are equally able (or unable) to
answer them. Perhaps they would be better asked to the WHAT WG community
on their mailing list?

                     http://whatwg.org/mailing-list


Ted

-- 
Edward O'Connor
hober0@gmail.com

Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem.




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Rogers Cadenhead wrote:
> --- Robert Sayre <rsayre@mozilla.com> wrote:
>> Is there some aspect of the WHAT-WG document that
>> bothers you?
> 
> Not yet, aside from the notion that they've got an
> incredibly ambitious goal -- spec the next
> HTML/XHTML/DOM -- and I have no idea how to gauge the
> likelihood they'll achieve it. Or whether they'll
> respect current autodiscovery functionality in MSIE 7
> and Firefox 2.0.
> 
>> Why not provide feedback there?
> 
> I will if that's where autodiscovery goes.
> 
> But I'm +1 on PaceMakeAutodiscoveryInformational.
> Seems like a good idea to tell Atom publishers how to
> support autodiscovered feeds.

Same here.
If as James suggested the proposal is merely informational then there
will be little harm done while providing something useful enough to be
actually used.

I have no will to wait and see whether or not the WHATWG recommendation
will eventually be applied. If we have to wait for one or two years to
get their final document then I don't see how an informational spec
could harm the community while waiting.

Besides the fact that browsers are the primary target is not relevant to
me. Atom is more than just a feed to subscribe to to get the latest news
from a website. We don't have the background to understand how Atom
thanks to APP will evolve in the field.

+1 to the pace.

- Sylvain




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The problem I have with the WHAT-WG definition of the alternate and feed
relations is the unintended conflict that occurs when the alternate
representation of a page happens to be an Atom Entry Document.

The HTML5 draft says,

	"If the alternate keyword is used with the type attribute set to
	the value application/rss+xml or the value application/atom+xml,
	then the user agent must treat the link as it would if it had
	the feed keyword specified as well."

It goes on to say,

	"The feed keyword indicates that the referenced document is a
	syndication feed. If the alternate link type is also specified,
	then the feed is specifically the feed for the current document"

The problem with this is that the "application/atom+xml" media type is
also used for Atom Entry Documents:

  <link rel="alternate" type="application/atom+xml" href="entry.xml" />

The current WHAT-WG definition is inadequate.

There are three possible solutions:

  1. We ask the WHAT-WG to fix their spec so the ambiguity in the Atom
     media type is addressed

  2. We add a type parameter to the application/atom+xml media type
     to differentiate feed and entry documents,
     e.g. application/atom+xml;type=feed,
          application/atom+xml;type=entry

     When the media type is used without the type parameter,
     type=feed is assumed.

  3. We define a new media type for Atom Entry Documents,
     e.g. application/atomentry+xml

Given that there are significantly fewer instances of Atom Entry
Documents that would need to be updated and the fact that the ambiguity
in the Atom media type has come up as a problem before, I'd actually
lean strongly in favor of options 2 or 3.

- James

Henri Sivonen wrote:
> 
> On Nov 28, 2006, at 22:11, Edward O'Connor wrote:
> 
>> WHAT WG seems like a neutral ground, syndication-format wise, so
>> perhaps they're best positioned to spec feed autodiscovery in a way
>> that makes everybody happy.
> 
> +1 for leaving speccing this to the WHATWG.
> 
> --Henri Sivonen
> hsivonen@iki.fi
> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/
> 
> 
> 




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From: "Robert Sayre" <sayrer@gmail.com>
To: "Rogers Cadenhead" <rcade@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: PaceAutoDiscoveryDraftIsPointless (was: PaceMakeAutodiscoveryInformational)
Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org
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On 11/28/06, Rogers Cadenhead <rcade@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I have no idea how to gauge the
> likelihood they'll achieve it. Or whether they'll
> respect current autodiscovery functionality in MSIE 7
> and Firefox 2.0.

My experience is that the IETF is essentially unresponsive to backward
compatibility concerns, to the extent that they will debate the
meaning of the term "MUST". It's like existential poetry.

In my experience, the WHAT-WG doesn't make any changes that break
compatibility unless users are already having problems caused by
implementation divergence. To make sure this is true, they research
and make decisions based on metrics, rather than ill-defined consensus
handwaving and individually-authored drafts with no support from
client implementors. I've even seen it claimed that "servers are
clients too", in the IETF.

>
> > Why not provide feedback there?
>
> I will if that's where autodiscovery goes.

It is already there.

>
> Seems like a good idea to tell Atom publishers how to
> support autodiscovered feeds.

They already know how, in general. The WHAT-WG is the place to work
out edge cases in HTML semantics.

Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote:
>
> there will be little harm done

Actually, the proposal seems so poorly researched and poorly
coordinated with WHAT-WG that I don't see how you can make that claim.
When Pilgrim wrote the draft, there weren't as many existing
implementations, so his approach made more sense at the time.

-- 

Robert Sayre




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Hello,

Over on the IETF Atom Syntax mailing list we're discussing whether or
not to pursue the autodiscovery draft that had previously been put on
the table [1] or to simply point to the HTML5 work and be done with it.
 While reviewing the HTML5 draft and comparing that to the Atom
auto-discovery draft, a couple of questions came to mind.

 1. Is the order of alternate link rels in a document significant?

 2. Are multiple alternate links with the same type attribute
    considered to be equivalent regardless of where those links appear
    in the document.

Thanks!

[1]
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-autodiscovery-00.txt

- James

Edward O'Connor wrote:
> James,
> 
>> Please correct me if I get any of this incorrect, but for the sake of
> [...]
>> What I did not see in the HTML5 spec is any indication of whether the
>> order of link relations is significant. I'm assuming that means that
>> it is not. I'm also assuming that means that all "alternate feed" link
>> relations, with the same type attribute value, appearing anywhere
>> within the document are considered to be equivalent?
> 
> These are good questions, but you and I are equally able (or unable) to
> answer them. Perhaps they would be better asked to the WHAT WG community
> on their mailing list?
> 
>                      http://whatwg.org/mailing-list
> 
> 
> Ted
> 




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Subject: Re: WHAT-WG, feed and alternate (was: Re: PaceAutoDiscoveryDraftIsPointless)
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On 11/28/06, James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  3. We define a new media type for Atom Entry Documents,
>   e.g. application/atomentry+xml

No one relies on Atom Entry alternates now, so this is the best
option. We should tack it onto the APP draft, since that will solve
issues with the accept element there. And praise to mnot, who
suggested we do this in RFC4287 but was overruled by the WG (including
myself).

-- 

Robert Sayre




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On 11/28/06, James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  2. Are multiple alternate links with the same type attribute
>     considered to be equivalent regardless of where those links appear
>     in the document.

What do you mean by "equivalent" ?


-- 

Robert Sayre




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On Nov 28, 2006, at 3:16 PM, Robert Sayre wrote:

> They already know how, in general. The WHAT-WG is the place to work
> out edge cases in HTML semantics.

Over the course of history, a remarkable number of different groups  
have jumped up and down and said "*We're* the ones defining HTML!!!  
Listen to *us*!!!".  It's foolish to draw conclusions about any HTML- 
related spec based either on which group is originating it or what  
anyone claims the browser engineers are going to do.

  -Tim




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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 19:11:06 -0500
From: "Robert Sayre" <sayrer@gmail.com>
To: "Tim Bray" <Tim.Bray@sun.com>
Subject: Re: PaceAutoDiscoveryDraftIsPointless (was: PaceMakeAutodiscoveryInformational)
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On 11/28/06, Tim Bray <Tim.Bray@sun.com> wrote:
> On Nov 28, 2006, at 3:16 PM, Robert Sayre wrote:
>
> > They already know how, in general. The WHAT-WG is the place to work
> > out edge cases in HTML semantics.
>
> Over the course of history, a remarkable number of different groups
> have jumped up and down and said "*We're* the ones defining HTML!!!
> Listen to *us*!!!".

Yes, and *all* have them have done a poor job, except for the WHAT-WG.
I am not a frequent participant there, but I have noticed a large leap
in quality. For example, Firefox 2 is already shipping section 5.3.5
of HTML5, DOM Storage.

http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#scs-client-side

I am supposed to be implementing getElementsByClassName today...
instead I am posting to this list. *sigh

> It's foolish to draw conclusions about any HTML-
> related spec based either on which group is originating it

Agree. But the WHAT-WG document and process are much better than the
alternatives.

> or what anyone claims the browser engineers are going to do.

Well, I've made the last 5-10 changes to the autodiscovery-related
code in one popular browser, so I can go by what I've already done,
rather than predicting the future.

Here is the bug where I'm going to implement the 'feed' relation, as
specified by the WHAT-WG:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=362156

-- 

Robert Sayre




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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 16:19:53 -0800
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Subject: Re: PaceMakeAutodiscoveryInformational
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At 4:56 PM -0500 11/28/06, Robert Sayre wrote:
>James M Snell wrote:
>>Ok, so given that I think this is the fifth or sixth note in which
>>you've said exactly the same thing, I think your position has been well
>>established.  What would be excellent is if you'd give others the
>>opportunity to weigh in on it before trying so hard to filibuster it.
>>
>
>This looks like an inappropriate personal attack to me.

<co-chair-hat value='on'>It may look like that to you, but it does 
not look that way to the WG Chairs. Please immediately stop posting 
messages such as this to the mailing list, It gets in the way of the 
technical discussion. If you cannot stop yourself from posting such 
messages, please consider not posting any more messages to the 
mailing list at all.
</co-chair-hat>




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Subject: Alternate link clarifications [was Re: [whatwg] PaceAutoDiscoveryDraftIsPointless]
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Ian Hickson wrote:
>> [snip]
>>  1. Is the order of alternate link rels in a document significant?
> 
> Good question. The draft hadn't covered that. I've now fixed the spec to 
> say that the order is important in one respect: the first <link>, <a>, or 
> <area> element whose rel="" attribute has the keyword "feed" (which might 
> also be implied by rel=alternate in certain cases) is defined to be the 
> default syndication feed for autodiscovery purposes.
> 

Excellent.  However, wouldn't it be more appropriate to limit this just
to rel="alternate feed"?  I can't imagine that the ordering of "feed"
links that are not also alternates is really all that significant.

> 
>>  2. Are multiple alternate links with the same type attribute
>>     considered to be equivalent regardless of where those links appear
>>     in the document.
> 
> Currently, the location of the link is irrelevant (except for the first 
> one being the default). However, different links with different href="" 
> attributes aren't "equivalent"; they point to different documents. They 
> can also have different titles (title=""), languages (hreflang=""), and 
> preferred media (media="").
> 

Equivalent was the wrong word I think.

Assuming that A includes alternate links to B and C, Can I assume that B
is also an alternate of C; and vice versa?

If that is the case, consider the header of the mozilla.org start page
in which you'll find four distinct alternate links:

 <link rel="alternate" type="application/rss+xml"
       title="Mozilla Announcements"
       href="http://www.mozilla.org/news.rdf">
 <link rel="alternate" type="application/rss+xml"
       title="Mozilla Weblogs"
       href="http://planet.mozilla.org/rss10.xml">
 <link rel="alternate" type="application/atom+xml"
       title="mozillaZine News"
       href="http://www.mozillazine.org/atom.xml">
 <link rel="alternate" type="application/rss+xml"
       title="Mozilla Developer News"
       href="http://developer.mozilla.org/devnews/index.php/feed/">

Each represent alternative representations of distinct subsets of the
start page but they are not alternatives to one another.  I'm guessing
that using the "feed" link relation without the "alternate" keyword
would have been more appropriate

> I hope this helps. If you have any other feedback, or if you'd like the 
> spec changed in any way, please let us know. I am very interested in 
> addressing any requirements the Atom community may have.
> 

Yes, it does help.  Thanks for taking the time.

- James




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At 6:16 PM -0500 11/28/06, Robert Sayre wrote:
>On 11/28/06, Rogers Cadenhead <rcade@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>I have no idea how to gauge the
>>likelihood they'll achieve it. Or whether they'll
>>respect current autodiscovery functionality in MSIE 7
>>and Firefox 2.0.
>
>My experience is that the IETF is essentially unresponsive to backward
>compatibility concerns,

The IETF has been very good with this on some protocols, and bad on 
others. Even if a major vendor has deployed something, if it is 
technically broken or limited, the IETF will generally ignore it. If 
the protocol is just acceptable, we will spend a huge amount of time 
trying to decide between "good enough" and "replace it", usually with 
silly results.

>  to the extent that they will debate the
>meaning of the term "MUST". It's like existential poetry.

+1




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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 18:09:39 -0800
From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [whatwg] Alternate link clarifications [was Re: PaceAutoDiscoveryDraftIsPointless]
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Ian Hickson wrote:
> [snip]
> Here, while the last three are also valid feeds, it is the first one that 
> should be considered the default when doing auto-discovery. This isn't to 
> say that the feed UA should ignore the other three, or that it should only 
> show them if the user goes out of his way to obtain them -- indeed, the 
> "default" relationship could be completely ignored. It just means that if 
> it has to automatically pick one, then the first one is the one it should 
> pick. (It might also decide to only pick the one that is both a feed and 
> an alternative representation of the document, instead of picking the 
> default feed.)
> 

Hmm... Ok, I can live with that.

>>[snip]
>> Assuming that A includes alternate links to B and C, Can I assume that B 
>> is also an alternate of C; and vice versa?
> 
> Oh, you mean is the 'alternative' link type transitive? I guess so. I've 
> added a paragraph to the spec stating this.
> 

!@#$%! I was trying to think of that word all afternoon.  Yes, I was
meaning to ask if they were transitive.


- James




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* James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> [2006-11-29 00:20]:
>   3. We define a new media type for Atom Entry Documents,
>      e.g. application/atomentry+xml

+1


* Robert Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> [2006-11-29 00:40]:
> We should tack it onto the APP draft, since that will solve
> issues with the accept element there. And praise to mnot, who
> suggested we do this in RFC4287 but was overruled by the WG
> (including myself).

+1


(Wow, I +1ed both James and Robert in the same mail. :-) )

Regards,
-- 
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
Subject: Re: In San Francisco/Bay Area
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 19:33:03 -0800
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It has been suggested that a good meeting location might be Tied  
House in Mountain View [1]. It has a back room that's like a patio  
but covered and heated for dinner on either

Wednesday 6th Dec
Friday 8th Dec
Monday 11th Dec
Wednesday 13th Dec

Any preferences?

Henry Story

[1] http://www.tiedhouse.com/

On 16 Nov 2006, at 18:23, Henry Story wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am in the San Francisco/Bay Area region for the coming month.  
> Would anyone in the area be up for a group meeting?
>
> Henry
>
> Home page: http://bblfish.net/
> Sun Blog: http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/
> Foaf name: http://bblfish.net/people/henry/card#me




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Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote:
> I have no will to wait and see whether or not the WHATWG recommendation
> will eventually be applied. If we have to wait for one or two years to
> get their final document then I don't see how an informational spec
> could harm the community while waiting.

Don't freak out, but it's going to take *a lot* longer than 1 or 2 years 
for the WHATWG work to finish.  Hixie posted the estimated schedule on 
www-archive.

    First Working Draft . . . . 2007
    Last Call Working Draft . . 2009
    Candidate Recommendation  . 2012
    Proposed Recommendation . . 2022

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2006Nov/0000

However, that schedule really only represents the estimated time for a 
sufficent amount of test cases to be written and for implementations to 
become fully interoperable.  As features get implemented by browsers, 
you can start using them.  e.g. things like <canvas> or XMLHttpRequest 
are already widely supported and used, but their specs are not yet finished.

It's exactly the same with autodiscovery.  Since much of it is already 
widely supported and the rest of that section is relatively trivial to 
implement, the official status of the spec won't hold it up at all.

But what you can do to speed up the process is to write test cases. 
Hundreds of them for both HTML and XHTML, especially ones that test for 
edge cases and non-conforming behaviour.  That also helps to reveal 
holes in the spec, since if you can't test something, it's not specced 
well enough.

> +1 to the pace.

Why on earth is it called a pace?

-- 
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/




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Subject: Re: WHAT-WG, feed and alternate (was: Re: PaceAutoDiscoveryDraftIsPointless)
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On 11/28/06, James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> wrote:
> There are three possible solutions:
>
>   1. We ask the WHAT-WG to fix their spec so the ambiguity in the Atom
>      media type is addressed

What ambiguity?  There's no ambiguity AFAICT.

But the WHAT spec does need fixing.  Assuming rel="feed" because of
the value of a (non-authoritative!) media type conflates two
independent concepts, and as a result may confuse users who are
looking for syndication feeds but instead find themselves confronted
with non-traditional (non-"feed") Atom documents.

If that's fixed, then this should work fine for entries (assuming
"alternate" semantics);

<link rel="alternate" type="application/atom+xml" href="foo.atom" />

There's no need for a new media type.

Mark.




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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 21:31:48 -0800
From: John Panzer <jpanzer@aol.net>
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To: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
Cc: Atom Protocol Publishing <atom-protocol@imc.org>,
        Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: Re: In San Francisco/Bay Area
References: <FEE8E1AE-45DF-4044-8ED5-A6E071C2C14A@bblfish.net> <AFCD06CC-2222-45CB-BCCB-638D32958822@bblfish.net>
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Any of those would be good for me.  Be careful of the deep fried onion 
rings at Tied House, though.

Henry Story wrote:

>
> It has been suggested that a good meeting location might be Tied  
> House in Mountain View [1]. It has a back room that's like a patio  
> but covered and heated for dinner on either
>
> Wednesday 6th Dec
> Friday 8th Dec
> Monday 11th Dec
> Wednesday 13th Dec
>
> Any preferences?
>
> Henry Story
>
> [1] http://www.tiedhouse.com/
>
> On 16 Nov 2006, at 18:23, Henry Story wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am in the San Francisco/Bay Area region for the coming month.  
>> Would anyone in the area be up for a group meeting?
>>
>> Henry
>>
>> Home page: http://bblfish.net/
>> Sun Blog: http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/
>> Foaf name: http://bblfish.net/people/henry/card#me
>
>


-- 

Abstractioneer <http://feeds.feedburner.com/aol/SzHO>John Panzer
System Architect
http://abstractioneer.org

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Any of those would be good for me.&nbsp; Be careful of the deep fried onion
rings at Tied House, though.<br>
<br>
Henry Story wrote:
<blockquote cite="midAFCD06CC-2222-45CB-BCCB-638D32958822@bblfish.net"
 type="cite"><br>
It has been suggested that a good meeting location might be Tied&nbsp; House
in Mountain View [1]. It has a back room that's like a patio&nbsp; but
covered and heated for dinner on either
  <br>
  <br>
Wednesday 6th Dec
  <br>
Friday 8th Dec
  <br>
Monday 11th Dec
  <br>
Wednesday 13th Dec
  <br>
  <br>
Any preferences?
  <br>
  <br>
Henry Story
  <br>
  <br>
[1] <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.tiedhouse.com/">http://www.tiedhouse.com/</a>
  <br>
  <br>
On 16 Nov 2006, at 18:23, Henry Story wrote:
  <br>
  <br>
  <blockquote type="cite">Hi,
    <br>
    <br>
I am in the San Francisco/Bay Area region for the coming month.&nbsp; Would
anyone in the area be up for a group meeting?
    <br>
    <br>
Henry
    <br>
    <br>
Home page: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://bblfish.net/">http://bblfish.net/</a>
    <br>
Sun Blog: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/">http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/</a>
    <br>
Foaf name: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://bblfish.net/people/henry/card#me">http://bblfish.net/people/henry/card#me</a>
    <br>
  </blockquote>
  <br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<br>
<a href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/aol/SzHO"><img
 src="cid:part1.07010306.09030408@aol.net"
 style="border: 0pt none ; float: right;" alt="Abstractioneer"></a>John
Panzer<br>
System Architect<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://abstractioneer.org">http://abstractioneer.org</a><br>
</div>
</body>
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Hi,
   This feedback is related to the autodiscovery draft.

Before reading on, I suggest anyone writing a specification of any kind 
actually learn a little about how to write good conformance criteria.

http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1140242962&count=1

I do not believe it is at all useful for this spec to continue as either 
normative or informational.  If it were to be published as 
informational, who would it's target audience be?  What benefit would it 
provide to anyone?  What purpose would it serve?

James M Snell wrote:
> To document best practice as it relates specifically to syndication
> feeds.

It's not entirely clear what that actually means.  How would it be any 
different from, or more useful than, existing documentation on the 
subject that has been around for the past 3 or 4 years.

What we do need is a normative specification that clearly defines both 
document and user agent conformance requirements, and that really has to 
be in a normative specification.  The only issue that then remains is 
where this should take place and, for reasons documented later in this 
e-mail, I strongly believe that HTML5 is the correct place for this to 
be defined.

> For example, HTML5 says nothing about whether the relative order 
> of feed autodiscovery links within a document is significant.  The Atom 
> autodiscovery draft, however, defines that the order is significant.

That can be considered a limitation of the HTML5 spec which can be 
addressed there.  In fact, at the time of writing this, you've already 
raised the issue on the WHATWG list and it looks like its been resolved.


Note: The rest of this feedback is written as though this spec were 
still going to be published as a normative RFC, despite the suggestion 
that it be published as an informational item only or not at all. 
That's because I had most of it written before that suggestion and it's 
useful feedback anyway.


Feed autodiscovery should ideally be defined independent of the 
syndication feed format.  It is illogical to have a separate 
autodiscovery spec for Atom [1] and RSS [2].  As far as autodiscovery is 
concerned, the only difference between these and any other format is the 
MIME type.  But, if this spec is to continue, it should at least be 
renamed to "Syndication Feed Autodiscovery" or similar.


*Introduction*

The introduction should discuss the use of Atom, RSS and RDF Site 
Summary because they're all widely used and are relevant to anyone 
implementing autodiscovery.  I suggest it also talk about the generic 
concept of what a syndication feed is (independent of the syntax) and 
only refer to Atom, RSS and RDF as examples.


*Notational Conventions*

This section should be titled "Conformance Requirements".  It should 
make a clear distinction between user agent conformance and document 
conformance, and clearly explain the requirements for each.

If there are separate categories of user agents, then they should be 
defined here.  For instance, a conformance checker would have different 
requirements from a web browser.  e.g. A conformance checker must report 
errors to a user, whereas as a web browser isn't required to do so and 
may recover gracefully, in the way defined by the specification (where 
applicable).

It should state something like the following to define which sections 
are normative and non-normative.

   All examples and notes in this specification are non-normative, as are
   all sections explicitly marked non-normative. Everything else in this
   specification is normative.


*Defintion of an autodiscovery element*

This should be moved to a separate definitions section (perhaps within 
the previous conformance requirements section).  It does not belong in 
the Relationship to HTML and XHTML section.  The definitions should also 
include other terms used throughout the spec, which are then used in the 
conformance requirements (see the writing specifications article linked 
above).

| An Atom autodiscovery element is a link element, as defined in
| section 12.3 of HTML 4 [W3C.REC-html401-19991224].

Assuming this section is normative, that reference should be normative 
also.  Throughout the spec, it should also refer to it as just an 
"autodiscovery element" (see above about it not just being for Atom).

I do not agree that only <link> elements should be used for 
autodiscovery.  Since visible meta data is always better than invisible 
meta data, documents should be allowed to use the <a> element as well.

| As with other types of link elements, an autodiscovery element MAY
| appear within the <head> element of an HTML or XHTML document,

Why is that requirement only stated as a *MAY*?  It should be a *MUST* 
requirement and it should be made clear that this is a document 
conformance requirement only.

| but it MUST NOT appear within the <body>.

For document conformance, I agree.  But, UA conformance requirements 
also need to be defined.  What must a UA do if it finds a link element 
in the body?  This error is actually far more common than you may think.

As part of a study of several billion pages done by Ian Hickson in 
September this year, it was found that "Parse error: link element start 
tag out of place." was the 32nd most common error and happened for about 
1 in 8 documents, on average.  That means in roughly 12.5% of pages, the 
link element occurred in the body.

The study was similar to the Web Authoring Statistics [3] published by 
Google in January (also done by Ian Hickson), but with a significantly 
larger sample and much more data collected.

In HTML5 (which is based upon the way several browsers have already 
implemented HTML), regardless of where the link tag occurs in the 
serialisation, each link element is still inserted into the head.  So, 
strictly speaking, it is impossible for a link element to appear in the 
body in HTML, though the tag could appear anywhere the author put it.

For example, if that were not the case and the link was not inserted 
into the head regardless of where it occurred, consider the following 
test case.  Is the link considered to be in the head or not?

<head>
<title>Autodiscovery</title>
<script type="text/javascript">
document.write("<p>test<\/p>");
</script>
<link rel="alternate" type="application/atom+xml" href="/feed" />
</head>

The answer actually depends upon whether or not script is enabled.  If 
it's disabled, then the answer is yes.  Otherwise, when the p element 
written to the serialisation, it implies the end of the head and the 
beginning of the body, and so the answer is no.  That is actually the 
behaviour of IE7, but not Firefox, Opera or Safari.


*Relationship to HTML and XHTML*

*Syntax rules inherited from HTML*

This significantly limited, informative list of syntax requirements, if 
included, should be non-normative.  Instead, the spec should normatively 
refer to an HTML spec which clearly defines the syntax and parsing 
requirements for conforming user agents.

However, if HTML 4.01 is chosen, then as far as the SGML parsing is 
concerned, HTML 4.01 cannot be implemented in the real world.  No web 
browser does and I seriously doubt any existing tools that implement 
autodiscovery do so either.

I would strongly recommend that you normatively reference HTML5 for the 
parsing requirements, which is far more relevant than HTML 4.01 is. 
However, even though the relevant parts of the parsing section are 
relatively stable, the spec itself is not, which is a problem because 
because it's not usually a good idea to normatively reference a moving 
target.

To do so would make HTML5 a dependency, but it's difficult to progress 
any specification that has such unstable dependencies.  In other words, 
this would technically be held up by the progress of HTML5 anyway.  So, 
therefore, it doesn't really make sense for this to defined separately 
from HTML, particularly when it actually is an HTML feature itself.


*Syntax rules inherited from XHTML*

Again, this significantly limited, informative list of syntax 
requirements, if included, should be non-normative.  Instead, the spec 
should normatively reference the XML 1.0 and XHTML 1.0 specs which 
clearly define the syntax and parsing requirements.


*The rel attribute*

| The rel attribute MUST be present in an Atom autodiscovery element.
| As defined in section 6.12 of HTML 4 [W3C.REC-html401-19991224], the
| value of the rel attribute is a space-separated list of keywords.

That's another example of a normative reference to HTML4.  In this case, 
it's ok to reference HTML4 for the definition of the rel attribute, but 
HTML5's definition would be better.

| The list of keywords MUST include the keyword "alternate" in
| uppercase, lowercase, or mixed case.

That's a reasonable example of a document conformance requirement, 
though I'd suggest it be rephrased:

   The list of keywords MUST include the keyword "alternate".  The value
   is case-insensitive.

It is also missing user agent conformance requirements, but they would 
be covered by a normative reference to the HTML spec that defines how to 
process the rel attribute.  There's an edge case that should be covered. 
  e.g.

<link rel="alternate stylesheet" type="application/atom+xml" href="/feed">

In HTML, the combination of alternate and stylesheet has special 
meaning.  Yet the type attribute still has the atom MIME type.  Does 
that still represent an autodiscovery link?  If so, that should be 
defined and it is currently an interoperability issue.  (Note: This 
looks like it's also a problem with the HTML5 spec at the moment)

I believe the feed value should also be specified in this section, as it 
is in the WHATWG spec.  Primarily because a syndication feed isn't 
necessarily an alternative representation of the page, as clearly 
demonstrated in the mozilla.org example shown in an earlier post today.

*The type attribute*

The definition of this should also include the value 
"application/rss+xml".  This is because of the above reasons about it 
not just being for Atom and because UAs already have to support it as well.

*The href attribute*

The defintion of this is very good.  It contains both document and user 
agent conformance requirements.  No further comments.

*Multiple autodiscovery elements*

| * Each autodiscovery element SHOULD point to a different Atom feed.

What must a UA do if multiple links point to the same feed?

| * Each autodiscovery element SHOULD include a title attribute that
|   gives a human-readable label for the feed that the element points
|   to.  Clients MAY use these titles to present a list of available
|   Atom feeds to the end user.

That "MAY" in the last sentence should be at least a "SHOULD", but 
probably not a "MUST" in case a UA has a good reason not to show it.

| * The order of the autodiscovery elements is significant.  The first
|   element SHOULD point to the publisher's preferred feed for the
|   document.
| * Clients who present a list of autodiscovered feeds to the end user
|   SHOULD present them in the same order as the autodiscovery
|   elements appear in the document.
| * Clients who wish to choose exactly one feed without user input
|   SHOULD choose the one pointed to by the first autodiscovery
|   element.

This section is quite good, but there are a few issues.  What if the 
first one is an unsupported format?  e.g. the first is RSS, the second 
is Atom, and the UA only supports Atom.  Since it's a SHOULD, UAs can 
technically do that, but this stuff should be explicitly defined.

What if the link elements has an hreflang attributes, indicating 
alternate languages for the feeds.  Say the first is "en", the second 
"fr", and ther user has configured "fr" as their preferred language. 
UAs should choose the first one provided in the user's preferred language.

*Examples*

I left comments about the examples section before [4].  Those comments 
still stand.

[1] 
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-autodiscovery-00.txt
[2] http://www.rssboard.org/rss-autodiscovery
[3] http://code.google.com/webstats/
[4] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg19103.html

-- 
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/




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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 07:37:46 +0000
From: Sylvain Hellegouarch <sh@defuze.org>
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        "Edward O'Connor" <hober0@gmail.com>, atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: WHAT-WG, feed and alternate
References: <456C65AF.1080609@gmail.com> <456C713B.4090203@gmail.com>	 <456C7B0D.2060908@mozilla.com> <456C80DB.8060705@gmail.com>	 <456C8470.1050007@mozilla.com> <456C8864.5000607@gmail.com>	 <456C8CA5.60200@mozilla.com> <86hcwjbabh.fsf@rakim.cfhp.org>	 <8212E1B2-FB6D-4EEF-AEBB-9F57AFA8D92E@iki.fi>	 <456CC0F9.5070108@gmail.com> <68fba5c50611281522q37a5378fkd77b2cb3f3d4d5ba@mail.gmail.com>
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Robert Sayre wrote:
> 
> On 11/28/06, James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>  3. We define a new media type for Atom Entry Documents,
>>   e.g. application/atomentry+xml
> 
> No one relies on Atom Entry alternates now, so this is the best
> option. We should tack it onto the APP draft, since that will solve
> issues with the accept element there. And praise to mnot, who
> suggested we do this in RFC4287 but was overruled by the WG (including
> myself).
> 

+1 very much on a new media type. The confusion carried by the current
one is alarming now but will become a real issue if APP does take off.

- Sylvain




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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:03:50 +0100
From: "Thomas Broyer" <t.broyer@gmail.com>
To: Atom-Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: Re: WHAT-WG, feed and alternate (was: Re: PaceAutoDiscoveryDraftIsPointless)
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2006/11/29, James M Snell:
>
> The problem I have with the WHAT-WG definition of the alternate and fee=
d
> relations is the unintended conflict that occurs when the alternate
> representation of a page happens to be an Atom Entry Document.
>
> The HTML5 draft says,
>
>         "If the alternate keyword is used with the type attribute set t=
o
>         the value application/rss+xml or the value application/atom+xml=
,
>         then the user agent must treat the link as it would if it had
>         the feed keyword specified as well."
>
> It goes on to say,
>
>         "The feed keyword indicates that the referenced document is a
>         syndication feed. If the alternate link type is also specified,
>         then the feed is specifically the feed for the current document=
"
>
> The problem with this is that the "application/atom+xml" media type is
> also used for Atom Entry Documents:
>
>   <link rel=3D"alternate" type=3D"application/atom+xml" href=3D"entry.x=
ml" />
>
> The current WHAT-WG definition is inadequate.

Already exposed here:
http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg19100.html
and there:
http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg19107.html
;-)

> There are three possible solutions:
>
>   1. We ask the WHAT-WG to fix their spec so the ambiguity in the Atom
>      media type is addressed

+1 (see above; see also Mark Baker's mail in this same thread =E2=80=93no=
t yet
in the archives)

>   2. We add a type parameter to the application/atom+xml media type
>      to differentiate feed and entry documents,
>      e.g. application/atom+xml;type=3Dfeed,
>           application/atom+xml;type=3Dentry

+1

>      When the media type is used without the type parameter,
>      type=3Dfeed is assumed.

I'd rather say: if there's no 'type' parameter, assume nothing, it can
be a feed or entry; this would make the "updated media-type" fully
backwards compatible with the current one (which shipped a year ago).

>   3. We define a new media type for Atom Entry Documents,
>      e.g. application/atomentry+xml

-1

--=20
Thomas Broyer




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Subject: RE: WHAT-WG, feed and alternate (was: Re: PaceAutoDiscoveryDraftIsPointless)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 20:18:49 +0800
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I would like to have application/atomentry+xml for entry. As a result, ap=
plication/atom+xml must be a feed.

>   2. We add a type parameter to the application/atom+xml media type
>      to differentiate feed and entry documents,
>      e.g. application/atom+xml;type=3Dfeed,
>           application/atom+xml;type=3Dentry
>
>      When the media type is used without the type parameter,
>      type=3Dfeed is assumed.

This cause is ok, but a bit complicated. We have already had a charset pa=
rameter. If using both the type and the charset parameters together, then=
 the Content-Type header will be application/atom+xml; type=3Dfeed; chars=
et=3Dutf-8. If type parameter is not declared, then type=3Dfeed is assume=
d because most feeds are serving with application/atom+xml with or withou=
t the charset parameter today.

Franklin Tse


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.o=
rg] On Behalf Of Thomas Broyer
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 16:04
To: Atom-Syntax
Subject: Re: WHAT-WG, feed and alternate (was: Re: PaceAutoDiscoveryDraft=
IsPointless)


2006/11/29, James M Snell:
>
> The problem I have with the WHAT-WG definition of the alternate and fee=
d
> relations is the unintended conflict that occurs when the alternate
> representation of a page happens to be an Atom Entry Document.
>
> The HTML5 draft says,
>
>         "If the alternate keyword is used with the type attribute set t=
o
>         the value application/rss+xml or the value application/atom+xml=
,
>         then the user agent must treat the link as it would if it had
>         the feed keyword specified as well."
>
> It goes on to say,
>
>         "The feed keyword indicates that the referenced document is a
>         syndication feed. If the alternate link type is also specified,
>         then the feed is specifically the feed for the current document=
"
>
> The problem with this is that the "application/atom+xml" media type is
> also used for Atom Entry Documents:
>
>   <link rel=3D"alternate" type=3D"application/atom+xml" href=3D"entry.x=
ml" />
>
> The current WHAT-WG definition is inadequate.

Already exposed here:
http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg19100.html
and there:
http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg19107.html
;-)

> There are three possible solutions:
>
>   1. We ask the WHAT-WG to fix their spec so the ambiguity in the Atom
>      media type is addressed

+1 (see above; see also Mark Baker's mail in this same thread =E2=80=93no=
t yet
in the archives)

>   2. We add a type parameter to the application/atom+xml media type
>      to differentiate feed and entry documents,
>      e.g. application/atom+xml;type=3Dfeed,
>           application/atom+xml;type=3Dentry

+1

>      When the media type is used without the type parameter,
>      type=3Dfeed is assumed.

I'd rather say: if there's no 'type' parameter, assume nothing, it can
be a feed or entry; this would make the "updated media-type" fully
backwards compatible with the current one (which shipped a year ago).

>   3. We define a new media type for Atom Entry Documents,
>      e.g. application/atomentry+xml

-1

--=20
Thomas Broyer






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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 08:16:37 -0800
From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
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http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceEntryMediatype

#pragma section-numbers off

== Abstract ==

For the current Atom Publishing Protocol draft...

Create a new media type for Atom Entry Documents: application/atomentry+xml

Deprecate the use of application/atom+xml for Entry Documents.

== Status ==

Proposed

== Rationale ==

The fact that one media type is used for both Feed and Entry documents
has repeatedly come up as a problem on more than one occasion.  We have
an opportunity to fix this problem now.

== Proposal ==

Add to Section 6.1

{{{
Atom Entry Documents are identified with the "application/atomentry+xml"
media type (See section 15).
}}}

Renumber existing section 15.3 to 15.4

Insert..

{{{
15.3 Content-type registration for 'application/atomentry+xml'

   MIME media type name:  application
   MIME subtype name:  atomentry+xml
   Mandatory parameters:  None.
   Optional parameters:
      "charset":  This parameter has semantics identical to the charset
         parameter of the "application/xml" media type as specified in
         [RFC3023].
   Encoding considerations:  Identical to those of "application/xml" as
      described in [RFC3023], Section 3.2.
   Security considerations:  As defined in this specification.
      In addition, as this media type uses the "+xml" convention, it
      shares the same security considerations as described in [RFC3023],
      Section 10.
   Interoperability considerations:  RFC 4287 registers the
      application/atom+xml Content-Type for both Atom Feed and Entry
      Documents.  For Atom Entry Documents, the use of the
      application/atom+xml type should be avoided.
   Published specification:  This specification.
   Applications that use this media type:  No known applications
      currently use this media type.

   Additional information:

   Magic number(s):  As specified for "application/xml" in [RFC3023],
      Section 3.2.
   File extension:  .atomentry
   Fragment identifiers:  As specified for "application/xml" in
      [RFC3023], Section 5.
   Base URI:  As specified in [RFC3023], Section 6.
   Macintosh File Type code:  TEXT
   Person and email address to contact for further information:
     This specification's author(s)
   Intended usage:  COMMON
   Author/Change controller:  IESG
}}}

== Impacts ==


== Notes ==

----

CategoryProposals




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On Nov 29, 2006, at 5:16 PM, James M Snell wrote:


>
> Create a new media type for Atom Entry Documents: application/ 
> atomentry+xml
>
> Deprecate the use of application/atom+xml for Entry Documents.

That is a *very* good idea!!

+1

Jan





> == Status ==
>
> Proposed
>
> == Rationale ==
>
> The fact that one media type is used for both Feed and Entry documents
> has repeatedly come up as a problem on more than one occasion.  We  
> have
> an opportunity to fix this problem now.
>
> == Proposal ==
>
> Add to Section 6.1
>
> {{{
> Atom Entry Documents are identified with the "application/atomentry 
> +xml"
> media type (See section 15).
> }}}
>
> Renumber existing section 15.3 to 15.4
>
> Insert..
>
> {{{
> 15.3 Content-type registration for 'application/atomentry+xml'
>
>    MIME media type name:  application
>    MIME subtype name:  atomentry+xml
>    Mandatory parameters:  None.
>    Optional parameters:
>       "charset":  This parameter has semantics identical to the  
> charset
>          parameter of the "application/xml" media type as specified in
>          [RFC3023].
>    Encoding considerations:  Identical to those of "application/ 
> xml" as
>       described in [RFC3023], Section 3.2.
>    Security considerations:  As defined in this specification.
>       In addition, as this media type uses the "+xml" convention, it
>       shares the same security considerations as described in  
> [RFC3023],
>       Section 10.
>    Interoperability considerations:  RFC 4287 registers the
>       application/atom+xml Content-Type for both Atom Feed and Entry
>       Documents.  For Atom Entry Documents, the use of the
>       application/atom+xml type should be avoided.
>    Published specification:  This specification.
>    Applications that use this media type:  No known applications
>       currently use this media type.
>
>    Additional information:
>
>    Magic number(s):  As specified for "application/xml" in [RFC3023],
>       Section 3.2.
>    File extension:  .atomentry
>    Fragment identifiers:  As specified for "application/xml" in
>       [RFC3023], Section 5.
>    Base URI:  As specified in [RFC3023], Section 6.
>    Macintosh File Type code:  TEXT
>    Person and email address to contact for further information:
>      This specification's author(s)
>    Intended usage:  COMMON
>    Author/Change controller:  IESG
> }}}
>
> == Impacts ==
>
>
> == Notes ==
>
> ----
>
> CategoryProposals
>




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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 12:33:53 -0500
From: "Mark Baker" <distobj@acm.org>
To: "James M Snell" <jasnell@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: PaceEntryMediatype
Cc: atom-protocol <atom-protocol@imc.org>, atom-syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
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-1

- there's nothing special about an entry document
- AFAICT (because they're not referenced from the pace), the problems
referred to have other causes.  I prefer we fix those instead.

Mark.




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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 10:10:20 -0800
From: Jan Algermissen <algermissen1971@mac.com>
To: Mark Baker <distobj@acm.org>
Cc: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>, atom-protocol <atom-protocol@imc.org>,
        atom-syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
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references: <456DB265.5090804@gmail.com> <c70bc85d0611290933w2e90355an7fbd2da1a3942dd3@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: PaceEntryMediatype
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Hi Mark,

would you suggest to put service and categories into application/atom+xml as well?

Hmm, ah, I think I see what you mean: When a peer declares it understands application/atom+xml the understanding of <entry/> is mandatory anyhow. Despite the additional inspection into the documents root element feed and entry belong into the same family you cannot have one without the other therefore the media type should not be split.

Is that what you think?


Jan



On Wednesday, November 29, 2006, at 06:56PM, "Mark Baker" <distobj@acm.org> wrote:
>
>-1
>
>- there's nothing special about an entry document
>- AFAICT (because they're not referenced from the pace), the problems
>referred to have other causes.  I prefer we fix those instead.
>
>Mark.
>
>
>




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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 10:22:40 -0800
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Subject: Re: PaceEntryMediatype
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One such problem occurs in atom:link and atom:content elements.
Specifically:

  <atom:link type="application/atom+xml" href="a.xml" />
  <atom:content type="application/atom+xml" src="b.xml" />

Given no other information I have no way of knowing whether these are
references to Feed or Entry documents.

- James

Mark Baker wrote:
> -1
> 
> - there's nothing special about an entry document
> - AFAICT (because they're not referenced from the pace), the problems
> referred to have other causes.  I prefer we fix those instead.
> 
> Mark.
> 




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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 10:40:38 -0800
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Subject: Re: PaceEntryMediatype
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I'm fine either way. Wouldn't take that long for me to write up a draft.

- James

Tim Bray wrote:
> On Nov 29, 2006, at 8:16 AM, James M Snell wrote:
> 
>> http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceEntryMediatype
>>
>> #pragma section-numbers off
>>
>> == Abstract ==
>>
>> For the current Atom Publishing Protocol draft...
> 
> Irrespective of the merits of the new media type, the APP spec seems
> like the wrong place to define it.  Since nobody wants to obsolete 4287,
> why not a short clean standalone I-D?  -Tim
> 
> 




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From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
Subject: Re: PaceEntryMediatype
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 10:39:43 -0800
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There are all kinds of other things you don't know: like what's  
inside the document, if the server is up, what the title is, ... What  
interoperability problem is solved by having a new mime type? And  
would that not be solvable by

<atom:link rel="entry" type="application/atom+xml" href="a.xml" />

Not that I really care that much.

Henry

On 29 Nov 2006, at 10:22, James M Snell wrote:

>
> One such problem occurs in atom:link and atom:content elements.
> Specifically:
>
>   <atom:link type="application/atom+xml" href="a.xml" />
>   <atom:content type="application/atom+xml" src="b.xml" />
>
> Given no other information I have no way of knowing whether these are
> references to Feed or Entry documents.
>
> - James
>
> Mark Baker wrote:
>> -1
>>
>> - there's nothing special about an entry document
>> - AFAICT (because they're not referenced from the pace), the problems
>> referred to have other causes.  I prefer we fix those instead.
>>
>> Mark.
>>




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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 10:36:13 -0800
From: Tim Bray <Tim.Bray@Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: PaceEntryMediatype
In-reply-to: <456DB265.5090804@gmail.com>
To: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
Cc: atom-protocol <atom-protocol@imc.org>, atom-syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
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On Nov 29, 2006, at 8:16 AM, James M Snell wrote:

> http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceEntryMediatype
>
> #pragma section-numbers off
>
> == Abstract ==
>
> For the current Atom Publishing Protocol draft...

Irrespective of the merits of the new media type, the APP spec seems  
like the wrong place to define it.  Since nobody wants to obsolete  
4287, why not a short clean standalone I-D?  -Tim




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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 13:56:04 -0500
From: "Mark Baker" <distobj@acm.org>
To: "Jan Algermissen" <algermissen1971@mac.com>
Subject: Re: PaceEntryMediatype
Cc: atom-protocol <atom-protocol@imc.org>, atom-syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
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On 11/29/06, Jan Algermissen <algermissen1971@mac.com> wrote:
> Hi Mark,
>
> would you suggest to put service and categories into application/atom+xml as well?

I haven't paid much attention to those, but AFAICT they have different
processing models (e.g. extensibility rules) and so IMO, comprise
different document formats.  Separate media types are fine.

> Hmm, ah, I think I see what you mean: When a peer declares it understands application/atom+xml the understanding of <entry/> is mandatory anyhow. Despite the additional inspection into the documents root element feed and entry belong into the same family you cannot have one without the other therefore the media type should not be split.
>
> Is that what you think?

Yes, but more than that.  An entry document is, AFAICT, little more
than shorthand for a feed with one entry, minus the feed-specific
metadata.  It's processing is a subset of feed processing.  If the
processing or content model of entry is extended, it applies to both
feed documents and entry documents.

And +1 to what Henry just said in response to James.  It's also not a
huge deal to me.  But I've just raised the rel="feed" inference issue
with the WHAT WG, so we'll see how that goes; if resolved to my
liking, then there's one less reason for a new media type.

Mark.




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James M Snell wrote:

> Create a new media type for Atom Entry Documents: application/atomentry+xml

+0

cheers
Bill




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2006/11/29, James M Snell:
> Create a new media type for Atom Entry Documents: application/atomentry+xml
>
> Deprecate the use of application/atom+xml for Entry Documents.

I'd largely prefer augmenting the existing media type with a 'type' parameter:
 - application/atom+xml => either feed or entry (as defined in RFC4287)
 - application/atom+xml;type=feed => feed
 - application/atom+xml;type=entry => entry

> {{{
> Atom Entry Documents are identified with the
>  "application/atomentry+xml" media type (See section 15).
> }}}

How about defining a "tree" similar to the */vnd.* one?
 - application/atom+xml => feed or entry document
 - application/atom.categories+xml => category document
 - application/atom.service+xml => service document
...and of course, if this proposal is finally accepted:
 - application/atom.entry+xml => entry document


As for Tim's concerns, I'd also prefer having it done outside the APP.

Also, the APP draft would need to be updated to remove the "entry"
special value for app:accept, as it would be equivalent to the new or
revised media type (app:accept=application/atom+xml;type=entry or
app:accept=applicationAtom.entry+xml)

-- 
Thomas Broyer




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Subject: Re: [whatwg] Allow trailing slash in always-empty HTML5 elements?
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 19:29:42 +0000
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On 29 Nov 2006, at 19:17, Leons Petrazickis wrote:

> We need to make the migration
> from invalid XHTML to valid HTML5 very, very easy for them. We can't
> require them to dig through PHP spaghetti. And that means that, no
> matter how it's achieved, <br/> needs to be valid HTML5.

+1


- Geoffrey Sneddon





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From: "Robert Sayre" <sayrer@gmail.com>
To: "Lachlan Hunt" <lachlan.hunt@lachy.id.au>
Subject: WikiWikiWeb (was: Autodiscovery Draft Issues)
Cc: atom-syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>, rss-public@yahoogroups.com
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On 11/29/06, Lachlan Hunt <lachlan.hunt@lachy.id.au> wrote:
>
> James M Snell wrote:
> > To document best practice as it relates specifically to syndication
> > feeds.
>
> It's not entirely clear what that actually means.  How would it be any
> different from, or more useful than, existing documentation on the
> subject that has been around for the past 3 or 4 years.

Well, it would be much less useful, since IETF documents don't have
pictures or unicode or translations.

With encouragement from the RSS-Public mailing list, I've taken their
Creative-Commons spec and pubilshed it here:

http://feedautodiscovery.org/

I removed the RFC 2119 reference, since I was told they were giving
"advice", and using SHOULD for it, which doesn't jive with the 2119
definitions.

Now, the Atom list should jump in and update the document so it does
justice to both formats. It's a wiki... just go for it.

(the CSS is a little rough still... I'll work on prettying it up)

-- 

Robert Sayre




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On 30/11/06 5:39 AM, "Henry Story" <henry.story@bblfish.net> wrote:

> would that not be solvable by
> 
> <atom:link rel="entry" type="application/atom+xml" href="a.xml" />

not if you want to do this:

<atom:link rel="something-else" type="application/atom+xml" href="a.xml" />

where 'something-else' might be 'comments' or 'history' or 'unexpurgated' or
'disemvowelled' or many other as yet unknown opaque-strings, some of which
would be used when linking to feed documents, some when linking to entry
documents.

e.




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From: "Robert Sayre" <sayrer@gmail.com>
To: "Atom Syntax" <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: Autodiscovery IPR and Process Concerns
Cc: rss-public@yahoogroups.com
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At this URL

http://www.snellspace.com/wp/?p=545

James Snell lists three issues concerning documenting Autodiscovery on
a wiki with a Creative Commons license.

1.) IP Protections

This is interesting for a couple of reasons. One is that Mr. Snell
previously claimed that the document has "nothing to do with my day
job" [1]. The second is the complete absurdity of worrying about IP
protections on HTML tags that make an orange button appear.

That said, we should take this seriously.

Do James Snell or IBM need to disclose any IP related to RSS and Atom
autodiscovery?

2.) Structured Process

Mr. Snell points at RFC2026. This is an individual draft. There is
basically no consistent process. Anyone who claims otherwise is trying
to deceive you. This group already has some good examples of the way
RFC2026 is interpreted in practice. It would be very disingenuous to
claim it constitutes structure.

3.) Well, whatever. ;)

a little confused,

Robert Sayre

[1] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg19142.html




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Robert Sayre wrote:
> [snip]
> 1.) IP Protections
> 
> This is interesting for a couple of reasons. One is that Mr. Snell
> previously claimed that the document has "nothing to do with my day
> job" [1]. The second is the complete absurdity of worrying about IP
> protections on HTML tags that make an orange button appear.
> [snip]

Good grief.

What I said was that my volunteering to take over the editing of the
autodiscovery draft had nothing to do with my day job;  that is, no one
at IBM asked me to work on autodiscovery nor am I aware of anything at
IBM that is dependent on its completion.  The only reason I volunteered
to serve as editor was because it was a loose end that hadn't been tied
up yet by the WG.

> Do James Snell or IBM need to disclose any IP related to RSS and Atom
> autodiscovery?

There's absolutely nothing to disclose.  I just prefer to limit my
material contributions to various standards activities to organizations
whose IP policies have been vetted and approved by my employer's IP
lawyers or to posts on my personal weblog.  Your wiki qualifies as neither.

> 2.) Structured Process
> 
> Mr. Snell points at RFC2026. This is an individual draft. There is
> basically no consistent process. Anyone who claims otherwise is trying
> to deceive you. This group already has some good examples of the way
> RFC2026 is interpreted in practice. It would be very disingenuous to
> claim it constitutes structure.
> 

I had originally suggested that the draft be resubmitted as a WG draft.
 The Area Director and the WG chairs suggested that since autodiscovery
was not covered under the original charter it would be better to pursue
it as an individual submission.  I decided to do so only on the
condition that the same open process used for the development of the
Atom and APP specs would be followed -- meaning that there would be no
closed door decisions and that clear consensus had to develop via open
discussions on the WG mailing list before any change to the document was
made.

> 3.) Well, whatever. ;)
> 
> a little confused,

Again, it would help if you quoted me accurately. My complete statement
can be found at [1].  All of the comments in my blog post were
specifically in regards to why I did not intend to participate in your
personal wiki documentation experiment. Good luck with it tho.

Now, to the WG as a whole: I really don't have any agenda for the
autodiscovery stuff other than to help foster it along.  If y'all think
there is a need for a I-D defining autodiscovery for Atom and APP, I've
got a few spare cycles to help with the editing.  If y'all think the
HTML5 stuff is sufficient, that's fine with me too.  If y'all want to go
some other direction with it, whatever.

- James

[1] http://www.snellspace.com/wp/?p=545




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Mark Baker wrote:
> [snip]
> Yes, but more than that.  An entry document is, AFAICT, little more
> than shorthand for a feed with one entry, minus the feed-specific
> metadata.  It's processing is a subset of feed processing.  If the
> processing or content model of entry is extended, it applies to both
> feed documents and entry documents.
> 

Hmm.. I understand what you're saying but I don't think I agree.  In the
APP implementations I've put together, Feed and Entry documents
generally serve two entirely different purposes and are usually intended
for two entirely different audiences.

- James




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John Panzer wrote:
> [snip]
 > +1 to doing this outside of APP (but concerned about deprecating...)
> [snip]

An I-D / RFC can update another RFC without deprecating the entire
thing.  In this case the hypothetical new document would deprecate only
the use of the application/atom+xml media type for Atom Entry Documents.
 The rest of RFC 4287 would be unaffected.

- James




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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 20:32:46 -0800
From: John Panzer <jpanzer@aol.net>
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So this needs a decision tree:

+1 to having some way to modify type= (either new media type, or 
appending ";type=entry", +0 to either)
   +1 to application/atom.entry+xml if new media type is used
+1 to doing this outside of APP (but concerned about deprecating...)

My use case:  A web page that contains both a blog entry, and the 
comments for that entry.  I want to be able to autodiscover alternates 
for both, using separate documents, for example:

<link rel="alternate" type="application/atom.entry+xml" href="entry.xml" 
title="This entry"/>
<link rel="alternate feed" type="application/atom+xml" 
href="comments.xml" title="This entry's comments"/>

-John
 
James M Snell wrote:

>
>http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceEntryMediatype
>
>#pragma section-numbers off
>
>== Abstract ==
>
>For the current Atom Publishing Protocol draft...
>
>Create a new media type for Atom Entry Documents: application/atomentry+xml
>
>Deprecate the use of application/atom+xml for Entry Documents.
>
>== Status ==
>
>Proposed
>
>== Rationale ==
>
>The fact that one media type is used for both Feed and Entry documents
>has repeatedly come up as a problem on more than one occasion.  We have
>an opportunity to fix this problem now.
>
>== Proposal ==
>
>Add to Section 6.1
>
>{{{
>Atom Entry Documents are identified with the "application/atomentry+xml"
>media type (See section 15).
>}}}
>
>Renumber existing section 15.3 to 15.4
>
>Insert..
>
>{{{
>15.3 Content-type registration for 'application/atomentry+xml'
>
>   MIME media type name:  application
>   MIME subtype name:  atomentry+xml
>   Mandatory parameters:  None.
>   Optional parameters:
>      "charset":  This parameter has semantics identical to the charset
>         parameter of the "application/xml" media type as specified in
>         [RFC3023].
>   Encoding considerations:  Identical to those of "application/xml" as
>      described in [RFC3023], Section 3.2.
>   Security considerations:  As defined in this specification.
>      In addition, as this media type uses the "+xml" convention, it
>      shares the same security considerations as described in [RFC3023],
>      Section 10.
>   Interoperability considerations:  RFC 4287 registers the
>      application/atom+xml Content-Type for both Atom Feed and Entry
>      Documents.  For Atom Entry Documents, the use of the
>      application/atom+xml type should be avoided.
>   Published specification:  This specification.
>   Applications that use this media type:  No known applications
>      currently use this media type.
>
>   Additional information:
>
>   Magic number(s):  As specified for "application/xml" in [RFC3023],
>      Section 3.2.
>   File extension:  .atomentry
>   Fragment identifiers:  As specified for "application/xml" in
>      [RFC3023], Section 5.
>   Base URI:  As specified in [RFC3023], Section 6.
>   Macintosh File Type code:  TEXT
>   Person and email address to contact for further information:
>     This specification's author(s)
>   Intended usage:  COMMON
>   Author/Change controller:  IESG
>}}}
>
>== Impacts ==
>
>
>== Notes ==
>
>----
>
>CategoryProposals
>
>
>  
>





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To: "James M Snell" <jasnell@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [rss-public] Autodiscovery IPR and Process Concerns
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On 11/30/06, James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> There's absolutely nothing to disclose.

Are you sure about that?

> I just prefer to limit my
> material contributions to various standards activities to organizations
> whose IP policies have been vetted and approved by my employer's IP
> lawyers or to posts on my personal weblog.  Your wiki qualifies as neither.

Interesting. What is the difference between your personal weblog and a
wiki, in IP terms?

Keep in mind that a wise man once said "Anyone who uses the term
'Intellectual Property' is confused or trying to confuse you."

>
> I had originally suggested that the draft be resubmitted as a WG draft.
>  The Area Director and the WG chairs suggested that since autodiscovery
> was not covered under the original charter it would be better to pursue
> it as an individual submission.  I decided to do so only on the
> condition that the same open process used for the development of the
> Atom and APP specs would be followed -- meaning that there would be no
> closed door decisions and that clear consensus had to develop via open
> discussions on the WG mailing list before any change to the document was
> made.

This entire paragraph is plainly false. All of the decisions you refer
to were made without consulting the WG, the community, or what have
you.

>
>   If y'all think

Ah, this is what's called "innappropriately folksy". It's a common
rhetorical device used when the speaker wants to appear that they're
on the side of "the common man" or equivalent. The president of the
United States makes frequent use of this device.

Mission Accomplished!,

Robert Sayre




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On 11/30/06, James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> John Panzer wrote:
> > [snip]
>  > +1 to doing this outside of APP (but concerned about deprecating...)
> > [snip]
>
> An I-D / RFC can update another RFC

I think John should edit.

-- 

Robert Sayre




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* Robert Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> [2006-11-30 08:10]:
> On 11/30/06, James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> wrote:
> >   If y'all think
> 
> Ah, this is what's called "innappropriately folksy". It's
> a common rhetorical device used when the speaker wants to
> appear that they're on the side of "the common man" or
> equivalent.

What rhetorical device is it to point out the rhetorical devices
used by other participants in a discussion?

> The president of the United States makes frequent use of this
> device.

What rhetorical device is it to use inappropriate and entirely
irrelevant political analogies in the hopes of derailing
a discussion?

Regards,
-- 
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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* Mark Baker <distobj@acm.org> [2006-11-29 20:10]:
> An entry document is, AFAICT, little more than shorthand for
> a feed with one entry, minus the feed-specific metadata. It's
> processing is a subset of feed processing. If the processing or
> content model of entry is extended, it applies to both feed
> documents and entry documents.

I disagree. There=E2=80=99s not much of a point in subscribing to an
entry document, and APP servers will not accept POSTing feeds in
place of entries.

[Note: subscribing to an entry document is actually somewhat
useful in one sense and might become customary in the future,
eg. to track changes to a document. However, that=E2=80=99s still an
entirely different use case from subscribing to feed.]

Regards,
--=20
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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From: "A. Pagaltzis" <pagaltzis@gmx.de>
To: atom-protocol <atom-protocol@imc.org>, atom-syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: Re: PaceEntryMediatype
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* James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> [2006-11-29 17:40]:
> http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceEntryMediatype

+1


* Thomas Broyer <t.broyer@gmail.com> [2006-11-29 20:35]:
> I'd largely prefer augmenting the existing media type with
> a 'type' parameter:
> - application/atom+xml => either feed or entry (as defined in RFC4287)
> - application/atom+xml;type=feed => feed
> - application/atom+xml;type=entry => entry

-0

> How about defining a "tree" similar to the */vnd.* one?
> - application/atom+xml => feed or entry document
> - application/atom.categories+xml => category document
> - application/atom.service+xml => service document
> ...and of course, if this proposal is finally accepted:
> - application/atom.entry+xml => entry document

+1

I like this very much; it would put some order in the
proliferation of Atom-related MIME types.

> As for Tim's concerns, I'd also prefer having it done outside
> the APP.

+0

> Also, the APP draft would need to be updated to remove the
> "entry" special value for app:accept, as it would be equivalent
> to the new or revised media type
> (app:accept=application/atom+xml;type=entry or
> app:accept=applicationAtom.entry+xml)

+1

Unification is good.

Regards,
-- 
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>




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From: Jan Algermissen <algermissen1971@mac.com>
Subject: Re: PaceEntryMediatype
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 08:56:36 +0100
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>
Hi James,

>
> On Nov 29, 2006, at 5:16 PM, James M Snell wrote:
>
>
>
>> == Status ==
>>
>> Proposed
>>
>> == Rationale ==
>>
>> The fact that one media type is used for both Feed and Entry  
>> documents
>> has repeatedly come up as a problem on more than one occasion.


I took that to refer to the problem I saw (doing an additional check  
on the root element) but Mark's comment
made me realize that this is to small of a problem to warrant the  
media type separation of something so
tied together, IMO.

Are there other problems you had in mind when writing the Pace?

Thanks,

Jan

P.S. Actually, I think that Atom is a real good example to  
demonstrate that media types mean more than single  XML
document types.




>> We have
>> an opportunity to fix this problem now.
>>
>> == Proposal ==
>>
>> Add to Section 6.1
>>
>> {{{
>> Atom Entry Documents are identified with the "application/atomentry 
>> +xml"
>> media type (See section 15).
>> }}}
>>
>> Renumber existing section 15.3 to 15.4
>>
>> Insert..
>>
>> {{{
>> 15.3 Content-type registration for 'application/atomentry+xml'
>>
>>    MIME media type name:  application
>>    MIME subtype name:  atomentry+xml
>>    Mandatory parameters:  None.
>>    Optional parameters:
>>       "charset":  This parameter has semantics identical to the  
>> charset
>>          parameter of the "application/xml" media type as  
>> specified in
>>          [RFC3023].
>>    Encoding considerations:  Identical to those of "application/ 
>> xml" as
>>       described in [RFC3023], Section 3.2.
>>    Security considerations:  As defined in this specification.
>>       In addition, as this media type uses the "+xml" convention, it
>>       shares the same security considerations as described in  
>> [RFC3023],
>>       Section 10.
>>    Interoperability considerations:  RFC 4287 registers the
>>       application/atom+xml Content-Type for both Atom Feed and Entry
>>       Documents.  For Atom Entry Documents, the use of the
>>       application/atom+xml type should be avoided.
>>    Published specification:  This specification.
>>    Applications that use this media type:  No known applications
>>       currently use this media type.
>>
>>    Additional information:
>>
>>    Magic number(s):  As specified for "application/xml" in [RFC3023],
>>       Section 3.2.
>>    File extension:  .atomentry
>>    Fragment identifiers:  As specified for "application/xml" in
>>       [RFC3023], Section 5.
>>    Base URI:  As specified in [RFC3023], Section 6.
>>    Macintosh File Type code:  TEXT
>>    Person and email address to contact for further information:
>>      This specification's author(s)
>>    Intended usage:  COMMON
>>    Author/Change controller:  IESG
>> }}}
>>
>> == Impacts ==
>>
>>
>> == Notes ==
>>
>> ----
>>
>> CategoryProposals
>>
>




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On 11/30/06, A. Pagaltzis <pagaltzis@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> What rhetorical device is it to point out the rhetorical devices
> used by other participants in a discussion?

Gosh, Aristotle. I'm sure I don't know. Y'all let me know when y'all
figure it out.

- Bobby




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Jan Algermissen wrote:
> 
>>
> Hi James,
> 
>>
>> On Nov 29, 2006, at 5:16 PM, James M Snell wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> == Status ==
>>>
>>> Proposed
>>>
>>> == Rationale ==
>>>
>>> The fact that one media type is used for both Feed and Entry documents
>>> has repeatedly come up as a problem on more than one occasion.
> 
> 
> I took that to refer to the problem I saw (doing an additional check on
> the root element) but Mark's comment
> made me realize that this is to small of a problem to warrant the media
> type separation of something so
> tied together, IMO.
> 
> Are there other problems you had in mind when writing the Pace?
> 

One example.
UA POSTs content to a collection. The media type chosen by the client is
application/atom+xml and is accepted by the collection.

Now say the client posted a feed containing several entries. What should
the server decide to do? It could reject the request altogether but on
what ground? How to inform properly the UA? If we had a specific media
type (or at least a ;type=entry) for Atom entries you would avoid such
issue or be able to return a 415 error code.

More generally feed and entry documents are semantically distinct enough
that they should be distinguished in their media-type one way or the
other. I have hard times understanding why it hasn't been done so in the
first place. Better be safe than sorry. Well it seems we are sorry :)

It's interesting however because now that APP has reached a point where
it stable enough to be implemented we can see that issues are not the
same for server and client implementors. Considering what happens still
now with HTTP (see for instance the Content-Location discussion over at
the HTTP-WG) I hope the APP WG and the specification editors are taking
great care to limit the possibilities of future conflicts once APP gets
heavily deployed and used.

If things can safely be changed now then let's do it.

- Sylvain





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From: Jan Algermissen <algermissen1971@mac.com>
Subject: Re: PaceEntryMediatype
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On Nov 29, 2006, at 7:22 PM, James M Snell wrote:

>
> One such problem occurs in atom:link and atom:content elements.
> Specifically:
>
>   <atom:link type="application/atom+xml" href="a.xml" />
>   <atom:content type="application/atom+xml" src="b.xml" />
>
> Given no other information I have no way of knowing whether these are
> references to Feed or Entry documents.


And what is the problem with that?

Jan




>
> - James
>
> Mark Baker wrote:
>> -1
>>
>> - there's nothing special about an entry document
>> - AFAICT (because they're not referenced from the pace), the problems
>> referred to have other causes.  I prefer we fix those instead.
>>
>> Mark.
>>
>




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To: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
CC: rss-public@yahoogroups.com, Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: Re: [rss-public] Autodiscovery IPR and Process Concerns
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James M Snell schrieb:
> ...
> Now, to the WG as a whole: I really don't have any agenda for the
> autodiscovery stuff other than to help foster it along.  If y'all think
> there is a need for a I-D defining autodiscovery for Atom and APP, I've
> got a few spare cycles to help with the editing.  If y'all think the
> HTML5 stuff is sufficient, that's fine with me too.  If y'all want to go
> some other direction with it, whatever.
> ...

My 2 cents: it's nice that the HTML5 guys are looking at this, but they 
are so far away from being able to deliver something that I really would 
prefer that this is documented now. So, yes, I think you're on the right 
track.

Best regards, Julian




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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 12:03:30 +0100
From: Andreas Sewe <sewe@rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de>
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To: Thomas Broyer <t.broyer@gmail.com>
CC: Atom-Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>, Atom-Protocol <atom-protocol@imc.org>,
        James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: PaceEntryMediatype
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Thomas Broyer wrote:
> James M Snell wrote:
>> Create a new media type for Atom Entry Documents: 
>> application/atomentry+xml
>>
>> Deprecate the use of application/atom+xml for Entry Documents.

-0.5.

Using a type parameter seems like a more elegant solution -- and 
achieves the same effect.

> I'd largely prefer augmenting the existing media type with a 'type' 
> parameter:
> - application/atom+xml => either feed or entry (as defined in RFC4287)
> - application/atom+xml;type=feed => feed
> - application/atom+xml;type=entry => entry

+1.

This looks IMHO like a cleaner solution; in particular 
application/atom+xml fits in nicely as special (or rather more generic) 
case of application/atom+xml;type=(feed|entry).

>> {{{
>> Atom Entry Documents are identified with the
>>  "application/atomentry+xml" media type (See section 15).
>> }}}
> 
> How about defining a "tree" similar to the */vnd.* one?
> - application/atom+xml => feed or entry document
> - application/atom.categories+xml => category document
> - application/atom.service+xml => service document
> ...and of course, if this proposal is finally accepted:
> - application/atom.entry+xml => entry document

-1. I would not go down this road; the trees were designed for a 
different purpose. For (optional) type/profile parameters, however, 
there is precedent.

> As for Tim's concerns, I'd also prefer having it done outside the APP.

+1. A separate "Atom Media Types" RFC would be good.

Andreas Sewe




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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 11:50:52 +0000
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James M Snell wrote:
> 
> 
> Mark Baker wrote:
>> [snip]
>> Yes, but more than that.  An entry document is, AFAICT, little more
>> than shorthand for a feed with one entry, minus the feed-specific
>> metadata.  It's processing is a subset of feed processing.  If the
>> processing or content model of entry is extended, it applies to both
>> feed documents and entry documents.
>>
> 
> Hmm.. I understand what you're saying but I don't think I agree.  In the
> APP implementations I've put together, Feed and Entry documents
> generally serve two entirely different purposes and are usually intended
> for two entirely different audiences.

Same here. Feeds are collections; saying that entries are implicit 
collections is something I don't grasp - it's too abstract.

[The only time I've been able to treat feeds and entries uniformly is 
feeding RSS1.0 into a RDF aware system.]

cheers
Bill




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A. Pagaltzis wrote:
> * Mark Baker <distobj@acm.org> [2006-11-29 20:10]:
>> An entry document is, AFAICT, little more than shorthand for
>> a feed with one entry, minus the feed-specific metadata. It's
>> processing is a subset of feed processing. If the processing or
>> content model of entry is extended, it applies to both feed
>> documents and entry documents.
>=20
> I disagree. There=E2=80=99s not much of a point in subscribing to an
> entry document, and APP servers will not accept POSTing feeds in
> place of entries.

Well, it's kinda undefined - and this is circular - it's undefined=20
because feeds and entries share a media-type.

It would be useful to allow collections to accept non-atoms (har har).=20
Kyle@google expressed a need for batching, and I could really do with=20
this for website/cms publishing. But because error handling semantics=20
can be different for batches, it's tricky; some uniformity is lost if=20
it's not thought out.

cheers
Bill




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On Nov 30, 2006, at 2:13 AM, Jan Algermissen wrote:
> On Nov 29, 2006, at 7:22 PM, James M Snell wrote:
>> One such problem occurs in atom:link and atom:content elements.
>> Specifically:
>>
>>   <atom:link type="application/atom+xml" href="a.xml" />
>>   <atom:content type="application/atom+xml" src="b.xml" />
>>
>> Given no other information I have no way of knowing whether these are
>> references to Feed or Entry documents.
>
> And what is the problem with that?

Here's one problem: in this and the autodiscovery case, the UA can't  
tell without fetching the remote resource whether it's appropriate to  
display a "subscribe" link.  In fact, even if the remote resource is  
a feed, it may not be appropriate to subscribe to, because it may be  
an archive document rather than the live end of a feed.

Of the options presented, I'd favor adding a type parameter to  
application/atom+xml.  In addition to "feed" and "entry", we may want  
"archive".




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Thomas Broyer wrote:
<snip>
I'd largely prefer augmenting the existing media type with a 'type'
parameter:
- application/atom+xml => either feed or entry (as defined in RFC4287)
- application/atom+xml;type=feed => feed
- application/atom+xml;type
>
> =entry => entry


</snip>

+1

On 11/29/06, Thomas Broyer <t.broyer@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> 2006/11/29, James M Snell:
> > Create a new media type for Atom Entry Documents:
> application/atomentry+xml
> >
> > Deprecate the use of application/atom+xml for Entry Documents.
>
> I'd largely prefer augmenting the existing media type with a 'type'
> parameter:
> - application/atom+xml => either feed or entry (as defined in RFC4287)
> - application/atom+xml;type=feed => feed
> - application/atom+xml;type=entry => entry
>
> > {{{
> > Atom Entry Documents are identified with the
> >  "application/atomentry+xml" media type (See section 15).
> > }}}
>
> How about defining a "tree" similar to the */vnd.* one?
> - application/atom+xml => feed or entry document
> - application/atom.categories+xml => category document
> - application/atom.service+xml => service document
> ...and of course, if this proposal is finally accepted:
> - application/atom.entry+xml => entry document
>
>
> As for Tim's concerns, I'd also prefer having it done outside the APP.
>
> Also, the APP draft would need to be updated to remove the "entry"
> special value for app:accept, as it would be equivalent to the new or
> revised media type (app:accept=application/atom+xml;type=entry or
> app:accept=applicationAtom.entry+xml)
>
> --
> Thomas Broyer
>
>

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Thomas Broyer wrote:<br>&lt;snip&gt;<br>I'd largely prefer augmenting the existing media type with a 'type' parameter:<br> - application/atom+xml =&gt; either feed or entry (as defined in RFC4287)<br> - application/atom+xml;type=feed =&gt; feed
<br> - application/atom+xml;type<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">=entry =&gt; entry</blockquote><div><br>&lt;/snip&gt;<br><br>
+1<br></div><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 11/29/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Thomas Broyer</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:t.broyer@gmail.com">t.broyer@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>2006/11/29, James M Snell:<br>&gt; Create a new media type for Atom Entry Documents: application/atomentry+xml<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Deprecate the use of application/atom+xml for Entry Documents.<br><br>I'd largely prefer augmenting the existing media type with a 'type' parameter:
<br> - application/atom+xml =&gt; either feed or entry (as defined in RFC4287)<br> - application/atom+xml;type=feed =&gt; feed<br> - application/atom+xml;type=entry =&gt; entry<br><br>&gt; {{{<br>&gt; Atom Entry Documents are identified with the
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&quot;application/atomentry+xml&quot; media type (See section 15).<br>&gt; }}}<br><br>How about defining a &quot;tree&quot; similar to the */vnd.* one?<br> - application/atom+xml =&gt; feed or entry document<br>
 - application/atom.categories+xml =&gt; category document<br> - application/atom.service+xml =&gt; service document<br>...and of course, if this proposal is finally accepted:<br> - application/atom.entry+xml =&gt; entry document
<br><br><br>As for Tim's concerns, I'd also prefer having it done outside the APP.<br><br>Also, the APP draft would need to be updated to remove the &quot;entry&quot;<br>special value for app:accept, as it would be equivalent to the new or
<br>revised media type (app:accept=application/atom+xml;type=entry or<br>app:accept=applicationAtom.entry+xml)<br><br>--<br>Thomas Broyer<br><br></blockquote></div><br>

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From: "Mark Baker" <distobj@acm.org>
To: "James M Snell" <jasnell@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: PaceEntryMediatype
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The real problem here AIUI - at least in the context of HTML 5's
inferred rel="feed" bit - is not just entry documents, it's any Atom
document which wouldn't normally be considered a "feed" by a typical
user; something that most people would be interested in subscribing
to.  An example I gave on the whatwg list was an MHTML-like (MIME
multipart) package, but there are many other possible examples of
course; not all RFC 4287 feed documents are "feeds" in this sense.

If HTML 5 (and current practice) doesn't change, but we defer to them
for the specification of autodiscovery, then a new media type would be
one way forward.  But it should be reusable for all non-"feed" (i.e.
from a user POV, as above) Atom documents, not just entry documents;
perhaps application/atom-no-feed+xml.  It's an ugly hack, but it's
better than the alternative of many more specific Atom-related media
types, which atomentry+xml might set a precedent for.

Another way forward, because the rel="feed" inference is triggered not
just by the media type but by the "alternate" relationship keyword, is
to create a non-feed alternate relationship ("alternate-non-feed"?
ick).

I prefer the new relationship to a new media type because it's less
disruptive; it doesn't require futzing around with existing specs and
implementations.

Mark.




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Interesting, thanks.  But serving different purposes doesn't
necessitate a new media type.  What's important is how the two types
of documents are interpreted.

How does your processing of an entry document differ from the
processing of a feed containing (only) that same entry?  If processing
the entry is a subset of processing the feed, then you probably don't
need a new media type.

Mark.

On 11/30/06, James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Mark Baker wrote:
> > [snip]
> > Yes, but more than that.  An entry document is, AFAICT, little more
> > than shorthand for a feed with one entry, minus the feed-specific
> > metadata.  It's processing is a subset of feed processing.  If the
> > processing or content model of entry is extended, it applies to both
> > feed documents and entry documents.
> >
>
> Hmm.. I understand what you're saying but I don't think I agree.  In the
> APP implementations I've put together, Feed and Entry documents
> generally serve two entirely different purposes and are usually intended
> for two entirely different audiences.
>
> - James
>




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Mark Baker wrote:
> 
> Interesting, thanks.  But serving different purposes doesn't
> necessitate a new media type.  What's important is how the two types
> of documents are interpreted.
> 
> How does your processing of an entry document differ from the
> processing of a feed containing (only) that same entry?  If processing
> the entry is a subset of processing the feed, then you probably don't
> need a new media type.

Well having two media types also helps at a lower level such as HTTP
(content negotiation for one thing).

- Sylvain
> 
> Mark.
> 
> On 11/30/06, James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Mark Baker wrote:
>> > [snip]
>> > Yes, but more than that.  An entry document is, AFAICT, little more
>> > than shorthand for a feed with one entry, minus the feed-specific
>> > metadata.  It's processing is a subset of feed processing.  If the
>> > processing or content model of entry is extended, it applies to both
>> > feed documents and entry documents.
>> >
>>
>> Hmm.. I understand what you're saying but I don't think I agree.  In the
>> APP implementations I've put together, Feed and Entry documents
>> generally serve two entirely different purposes and are usually intended
>> for two entirely different audiences.
>>
>> - James
>>




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2006/11/30, Mark Baker:
>
> The real problem here AIUI - at least in the context of HTML 5's
> inferred rel=3D"feed" bit - is not just entry documents, it's any Atom
> document which wouldn't normally be considered a "feed" by a typical
> user; something that most people would be interested in subscribing
> to.  An example I gave on the whatwg list was an MHTML-like (MIME
> multipart) package, but there are many other possible examples of
> course; not all RFC 4287 feed documents are "feeds" in this sense.

Yes.

> If HTML 5 (and current practice) doesn't change, but we defer to them
> for the specification of autodiscovery, then a new media type would be
> one way forward.  But it should be reusable for all non-"feed" (i.e.
> from a user POV, as above) Atom documents, not just entry documents;
> perhaps application/atom-no-feed+xml.  It's an ugly hack, but it's
> better than the alternative of many more specific Atom-related media
> types, which atomentry+xml might set a precedent for.

-1
This means RSS would need two media types.
This also means an HTML document can be a "feed", or it needs its own
media type.
In an "entry" page in a blog-like scenario, we could find:
   <link rel=3D"feed" href=3D"/feed.atom" type=3D"application/atom+xml;ty=
pe=3Dfeed">
   <link rel=3D"feed" href=3D"/" type=3D"text/html">
which tells you the page "believes" it is an "item" in the linked "feeds".
Then , in /feed.atom:
    <atom:link rel=3D"alternate" href=3D"/" type=3D"text/html" />
and in the "/":
    <link rel=3D"alternate" href=3D"/feed.atom"
type=3D"application/atom+xml;type=3Dfeed">

And yes, HTML pages are "subscribable", either using a microformat
(see the W3C's home page, from which the RSS is actually produced
using an XSLT stylesheet), or using user-defined "scrapping" (some
aggregators allow you to subscribe to any web page; they try to infer
the "entries" from the semantical markup =E2=80=93h1, h2, h3, etc.=E2=80=93=
 and you
can customize the mechanism in per-feed basis: this page uses h2, this
one uses h3 with class=3D"article", etc.)

The relation from the "entry" page to the feed or "home page" is the
same (hey, they are alternates!): they are "feeds", whatever their
representation (Atom, RSS, HTML, etc.)
The difference with "container"? a "feed" is known to have a
representation which only exposes a subset of the contained items.

This is the same as:
<link rel=3D"contents" href=3D"/toc.html" type=3D"text/html">
<link rel=3D"contents" href=3D"/toc.opml" type=3D"what's the media type f=
or OPML?">

> Another way forward, because the rel=3D"feed" inference is triggered no=
t
> just by the media type but by the "alternate" relationship keyword, is
> to create a non-feed alternate relationship ("alternate-non-feed"?
> ick).
>
> I prefer the new relationship to a new media type because it's less
> disruptive; it doesn't require futzing around with existing specs and
> implementations.

I'd prefer basing autodiscovery on the media types and not at all on
the relationships. A "feed" relationship would only help finding the
"living resource" (similar to rel=3D"current" in the Atom Relationship
Registry) if you're not already "on" it (in which case,
rel=3D"alternate" would be used).

UAs would then obviously continue to support autodiscovery using
"alternate" all-over-the-place, this would just be a lucky
side-effect; and everyone would be happy.

--=20
Thomas Broyer




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Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 02:57:39 +1100
From: Lachlan Hunt <lachlan.hunt@lachy.id.au>
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To: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>
CC: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>, rss-public@yahoogroups.com,
        Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: Re: [rss-public] Autodiscovery IPR and Process Concerns
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Julian Reschke wrote:
> My 2 cents: it's nice that the HTML5 guys are looking at this, but they 
> are so far away from being able to deliver something that I really would 
> prefer that this is documented now. So, yes, I think you're on the right 
> track.

I just want to clear up this misconception about the status of the the 
HTML5 draft.  As a whole, it's true that it's going to take about 15 
years or so for the spec to reach the W3C recommendation status 
(assuming the work does move to the W3C, which is currently being worked 
out).  However, it's important to realise what the recommendation status 
actually means.

For a spec to become a REC, it requires two 100% complete and fully 
interoperable implementations, which is proven by each successfully 
passing literally thousands of test cases (20,000 tests for the whole 
spec would probably be a conservative estimate).  When you consider how 
long it takes to write that many test cases and how long it takes to 
implement each feature, you'll begin to understand why the time frame 
seems so long.

However, the WHATWG recognises and understands the problem with this: 
different parts of the specification are at different maturity levels. 
Some sections are already relatively stable and there are 
implementations that are already quite close to completion, and those 
features can be used today (e.g. <canvas>).  But other sections are 
still being actively worked on and changed regularly, or not even 
written yet.

The details are still being worked out, but the plan is to indicate the 
maturity level on a per-section basis.  Sections like the Link Types, 
which is relatively simple, isn't going to take long to become 
interoperably implemented.  In fact, Mozilla is already implementing the 
new autodiscovery features for Firefox 3.0, and it shouldn't take long 
for places like Technorati, Bloglines, etc. to implement follow.

Once a section is interoperably implemented, it's quite stable and 
unlikely to change significantly.  Any changes to such a section would 
most likely only be editorial in nature, particularly if the feature is 
already in widespread use (as autodiscovery already is today).

The point to all this is that you shouldn't place too much weight on the 
status of the specification as a whole.  You need to consider the 
stability and maturity level of each section individually.  Thus, while 
proceeding with Autodiscovery as an RFC may yield a fully complete and 
endorsed specification more quickly than HTML5, the end result and the 
time it takes for implementations to catch up is going to be the same. 
In fact, I believe leaving it in the hands on the WHATWG will in fact 
lead to a much higher quality specification because of the extensive 
experience that the editor has with writing them.

-- 
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/




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From: "Mark Baker" <distobj@acm.org>
To: "Sylvain Hellegouarch" <sh@defuze.org>
Subject: Re: PaceEntryMediatype
Cc: "James M Snell" <jasnell@gmail.com>,
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On 11/30/06, Sylvain Hellegouarch <sh@defuze.org> wrote:
> > How does your processing of an entry document differ from the
> > processing of a feed containing (only) that same entry?  If processing
> > the entry is a subset of processing the feed, then you probably don't
> > need a new media type.
>
> Well having two media types also helps at a lower level such as HTTP
> (content negotiation for one thing).

True, but if entry documents are more or less aliases for single-entry
feeds, why would anybody need to negotiate for one or the other?  I
suggest that would have to be pretty obscure use case. 8-)

Mark.




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Well, it's all XML parsing so in one sense the processing is the same.
The key difference arises in how the various documents are used.  In my
experience, Atom Entry Documents are nearly the exclusive territory of
APP Clients and push notification services (e.g. Atom over XMPP) while
Feeds generally provide for the redistribution and indexing of entries.
 When I parse an entry document, there is no implied feed.

- James

Mark Baker wrote:
> Interesting, thanks.  But serving different purposes doesn't
> necessitate a new media type.  What's important is how the two types
> of documents are interpreted.
> 
> How does your processing of an entry document differ from the
> processing of a feed containing (only) that same entry?  If processing
> the entry is a subset of processing the feed, then you probably don't
> need a new media type.
> 
> Mark.
> 
> On 11/30/06, James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Mark Baker wrote:
>> > [snip]
>> > Yes, but more than that.  An entry document is, AFAICT, little more
>> > than shorthand for a feed with one entry, minus the feed-specific
>> > metadata.  It's processing is a subset of feed processing.  If the
>> > processing or content model of entry is extended, it applies to both
>> > feed documents and entry documents.
>> >
>>
>> Hmm.. I understand what you're saying but I don't think I agree.  In the
>> APP implementations I've put together, Feed and Entry documents
>> generally serve two entirely different purposes and are usually intended
>> for two entirely different audiences.
>>
>> - James
>>
> 




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References: <456DB265.5090804@gmail.com> <c70bc85d0611290933w2e90355an7fbd2da1a3942dd3@mail.gmail.com> <456DCFF0.4000007@gmail.com> <A18FF2A6-2B77-47EC-9674-20C205112CD8@mac.com> <28CAF6FA-75C5-456D-BAC5-18AEAA6EA1FE@geckotribe.com>
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The key problem with "application/atom+xml;type=entry" is that at least
one major browser (Firefox 2.0) still treats it as a feed and shows the
"subscribe" link. So while the type parameter is a potentially more
elegant solution, the new media type approach would likely be far less
disruptive.

- James

Antone Roundy wrote:
> [snip]
> Of the options presented, I'd favor adding a type parameter to
> application/atom+xml.  In addition to "feed" and "entry", we may want
> "archive".
> 
> 




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Jan Algermissen wrote:
> [snip]
> Are there other problems you had in mind when writing the Pace?
> 

Well, there are the issues that came up with regards to the APP accept
element; the issues regarding whether Atom Feeds can be posted to an APP
collection; the issue in the "collection of collections" use case where
it's not clear if <content type="application/atom+xml" src="foo" />
points to an entry or a feed; I'm sure there are others that I'm not
thinking of right at the moment.  It seems that every couple of months
the issue of the media type duality comes up.

- James




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Mark Baker wrote:
> [snip]
> If HTML 5 (and current practice) doesn't change, but we defer to them
> for the specification of autodiscovery, then a new media type would be
> one way forward.  But it should be reusable for all non-"feed" (i.e.
> from a user POV, as above) Atom documents, not just entry documents;
> perhaps application/atom-no-feed+xml.  It's an ugly hack, but it's
> better than the alternative of many more specific Atom-related media
> types, which atomentry+xml might set a precedent for.
> 

Blech! :-)

I think it's worthwhile to separate the two distinct issues at play: The
Purpose of the Link and the Type of Resource.

The ambiguity in the media type has come up several times in WG
discussions for more than just autodiscovery.  Every time it comes up
there is some speculation about whether adding a type parameter would be
helpful then folks move on to something else without really coming to a
conclusion.

I agree with you that the HTML5 definition of "alternate" is lacking but
I understand why they've done things that way and I applaud their
effort.  They're documenting existing practice even if it is
fundamentally flawed.  At least they're moving things in the right
direction with the "feed" link relation but it's too early to tell if
that effort is going to pan out in the end.

> [snip]
> I prefer the new relationship to a new media type because it's less
> disruptive; it doesn't require futzing around with existing specs and
> implementations.
> 

Possibly. But at this point I'm not yet convinced.

- James




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On 11/30/06, James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The key problem with "application/atom+xml;type=entry" is that at least
> one major browser (Firefox 2.0) still treats it as a feed and shows the
> "subscribe" link.

Of course it does. Any program interested in consuming information is
going to ignore unknown parameters.

-- 

Robert Sayre




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"Well it's all octets so in one sense the processing is the same."

I have to agree with James.

The right questions in my mind is this - how is processing an entry 
different from processing a feed with that and 42 entries?

The idea that an entry is a degenerate feed is interesting, but 
unsubstantiated. Seriously, i'm not getting it. My experience is the 
opposite now, across 3 protocols; feeds are the odd men out (http needs 
them to deliver collections) and entries are not subsets of feeds. If 
there's real uniformity, I don't see it. To see it, I'd need to see that 
feeds and entries are closed under processing, and probably structurally 
isomorphic.

We've enough field experience that suggests having entries and feeds 
sharing a media type is at best inconvenient.  I only have to start 
thinking about how an APP collection handles partial update failures on 
a feed to think I need a dedicated media type for dealing with feeds.

cheers
Bill



James M Snell wrote:
> Well, it's all XML parsing so in one sense the processing is the same.
> The key difference arises in how the various documents are used.  In my
> experience, Atom Entry Documents are nearly the exclusive territory of
> APP Clients and push notification services (e.g. Atom over XMPP) while
> Feeds generally provide for the redistribution and indexing of entries.
>  When I parse an entry document, there is no implied feed.
> 
> - James
> 
> Mark Baker wrote:
>> Interesting, thanks.  But serving different purposes doesn't
>> necessitate a new media type.  What's important is how the two types
>> of documents are interpreted.
>>
>> How does your processing of an entry document differ from the
>> processing of a feed containing (only) that same entry?  If processing
>> the entry is a subset of processing the feed, then you probably don't
>> need a new media type.
>>
>> Mark.
>>
>> On 11/30/06, James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Mark Baker wrote:
>>>> [snip]
>>>> Yes, but more than that.  An entry document is, AFAICT, little more
>>>> than shorthand for a feed with one entry, minus the feed-specific
>>>> metadata.  It's processing is a subset of feed processing.  If the
>>>> processing or content model of entry is extended, it applies to both
>>>> feed documents and entry documents.
>>>>
>>> Hmm.. I understand what you're saying but I don't think I agree.  In the
>>> APP implementations I've put together, Feed and Entry documents
>>> generally serve two entirely different purposes and are usually intended
>>> for two entirely different audiences.
>>>
>>> - James
>>>
> 




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Mark Baker wrote:

> [..] it it's
> better than the alternative of many more specific Atom-related media
> types, which atomentry+xml might set a precedent for.

One question and one observation. The question: how will this set a 
precedent? The observation: if we really want to avoid this problem 
(assuming there is a problem), then RDF was the answer, not a pretence 
of uniformity.

cheers
Bill




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Bill de hOra wrote:
> 
> "Well it's all octets so in one sense the processing is the same."
> [snip]

Btw, My apologies if my original comment about the xml parsing came
across as being snarky; that was not the intention.  The point I was
making was that how these things are "processed" depends entirely on how
you intend to use 'em.  So far I've seen no evidence that anyone intends
to use Entry Documents in the same way they use Feed Documents.

- James




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Subject: Re: [rss-public] Autodiscovery IPR and Process Concerns
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On 11/30/06, Lachlan Hunt <lachlan.hunt@lachy.id.au> wrote:
>
> The point to all this is that you shouldn't place too much weight on the
> status of the specification as a whole.  You need to consider the
> stability and maturity level of each section individually.  Thus, while
> proceeding with Autodiscovery as an RFC may yield a fully complete and
> endorsed specification more quickly than HTML5

Actually, the process you describe is pretty much identical to the
IETF process in letter. For example, it took many years for RFC3986 to
appear, describing URIs at the level of Full Standard.

In practice, the WHAT-WG is more accountable, because there is a
documented process for resolving disputes that actually empowers the
group's participants. You'll find no such thing in the IETF,
especially with an individual draft.  The WHAT-WG is also much more
rigorous in testing and research than the IETF, so I have to agree
that there is little benefit to pursuing the Internet-Draft. Claims
that the WHAT-WG is too slow are overblown at best -- getting
something to "Proposed Standard" is not that interesting.

The (active!) wiki at http://feedautodiscovery.org is rapidly
eclipsing any other source on autodiscovery, and it can include
information that would not be permitted in an IETF or WHAT-WG
document, so it will always be more valuable and current.

-- 

Robert Sayre




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From: Antone Roundy <antone@geckotribe.com>
Subject: Re: PaceEntryMediatype
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 12:21:59 -0600
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Summary of thoughts and questions:

*** Problems with the status quo ***

A) Consumers don't have enough information (without retrieving the  
remote resource) to determine whether to treat a link to an Atom  
document as a link to a live feed, a feed archive, or an entry.  (Is  
it appropriate to poll the link repeatedly?  How should information  
about the link be presented to the user?)

B) APP servers can't communicate whether they will accept feed  
documents or only entry documents.


*** Possible solutions ***

1) Add a type parameter to the existing media type:

+ With the exception of a few details, the documents are all exactly  
the same format (does it contain a feed element, or does it start at  
the entry element, is it a "live" feed document or an archive, etc.),  
so a single media type makes the most sense (definitely for live  
feeds vs. archives, less certainly for feeds vs. entries).

- Some existing applications will ignore the parameter and may handle  
links to non-live-feeds inappropriately

- Some existing applications may not recognize application/atom 
+xml;type=feed as something appropriate to handle the same way they  
handle application/atom+xml now.

? I haven't been following development of the APP, so forgive my  
ignorance, but can parameters be included in the accept element?


2) Create (a) new media type(s) (whether like application/atomentry 
+xml or application/atom.entry+xml):

+ Applications that currently treat all cases of application/atom+xml  
the same would ignore non-feed links until they were updated to do  
something appropriate with the new media type.

- Differentiating between live feeds and archives by media type seems  
really wrong since their formats are identical.  This isn't as big a  
negative for entry documents, but it still seems suboptimal to me.

- If a media type were created for archive documents, would APP  
accept including application/atom+xml imply acceptance of archive  
documents too?  Neither yes nor no feels like a satisfying answer.


3) Use @rel values to differentiate:

- That territory is already a bit of a mess, what with "feed" vs.  
"alternate" vs. "alternate feed" vs. "feed alternate" -- why make it  
worse?

+ That territory is already a bit of a mess, what with "feed" vs.  
"alternate" vs. "alternate feed" vs. "feed alternate" -- why not work  
on all these messy problems in the same place?

- That wouldn't help with the APP accept issue.


4) Create a new media type for entry documents, and add a parameter  
to application/atom+xml to differentiate between live and archive  
feeds (and for any other documents that have the identical format,  
but should be handled differently in significant cases).

- Doesn't prevent existing apps that ignore the parameter from  
polling archive documents.

+ Does solve the rest of the problems without the negatives of #2 above.


5) Create a new media type for entry documents, and use @rel values  
to solve issues that doesn't solve:

+/- Messy territory


If we were starting from scratch, I'd probably vote for #1.  Since  
we're not, I'd vote for #4 first, and perhaps #5 second, but I'd have  
to think about #5 more first.

Antone




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Excellent summarization Antone, thank you.

Antone Roundy wrote:
> [snip]
> ? I haven't been following development of the APP, so forgive my
> ignorance, but can parameters be included in the accept element?
> 

I'd have to double check the definition of "media-range" but the
original intent was that parameters would be allowed but likely rarely used.

> [snip]
> 4) Create a new media type for entry documents, and add a parameter to
> application/atom+xml to differentiate between live and archive feeds
> (and for any other documents that have the identical format, but should
> be handled differently in significant cases).
> 
> [snip]
> 
> If we were starting from scratch, I'd probably vote for #1.  Since we're
> not, I'd vote for #4 first, and perhaps #5 second, but I'd have to think
> about #5 more first.
> 

I personally don't care so much about differentiating archive feeds. At
this point I'm thinking that some combination of 4 and 5 would be best.

- James




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Hi Antoine,

On Nov 30, 2006, at 10:21 AM, Antone Roundy wrote:

> Summary of thoughts and questions:

Thanks -- this is incredibly helpful.  However, might I suggest a  
couple more options?

6) Change expectations, not the spec.

Consumers must poll the feed to inspect the metadata, and Servers  
must accept both.

7) Disallow entry-only documents

Require all Atom documents to have a feed wrapper in order to be  
parsed properly. This is basically #4 + procrastination. :-)

I'm not saying these are necessarily _good_ options, but I'd like to  
be sure that whatever we do propose is superior to either of these;  
i.e., is the use of entry-only documents important enough to justify  
all this work?

Thanks,
-enp


>
> *** Problems with the status quo ***
>
> A) Consumers don't have enough information (without retrieving the  
> remote resource) to determine whether to treat a link to an Atom  
> document as a link to a live feed, a feed archive, or an entry.   
> (Is it appropriate to poll the link repeatedly?  How should  
> information about the link be presented to the user?)
>
> B) APP servers can't communicate whether they will accept feed  
> documents or only entry documents.
>
>
> *** Possible solutions ***
>
> 1) Add a type parameter to the existing media type:
>
> + With the exception of a few details, the documents are all  
> exactly the same format (does it contain a feed element, or does it  
> start at the entry element, is it a "live" feed document or an  
> archive, etc.), so a single media type makes the most sense  
> (definitely for live feeds vs. archives, less certainly for feeds  
> vs. entries).
>
> - Some existing applications will ignore the parameter and may  
> handle links to non-live-feeds inappropriately
>
> - Some existing applications may not recognize application/atom 
> +xml;type=feed as something appropriate to handle the same way they  
> handle application/atom+xml now.
>
> ? I haven't been following development of the APP, so forgive my  
> ignorance, but can parameters be included in the accept element?
>
>
> 2) Create (a) new media type(s) (whether like application/atomentry 
> +xml or application/atom.entry+xml):
>
> + Applications that currently treat all cases of application/atom 
> +xml the same would ignore non-feed links until they were updated  
> to do something appropriate with the new media type.
>
> - Differentiating between live feeds and archives by media type  
> seems really wrong since their formats are identical.  This isn't  
> as big a negative for entry documents, but it still seems  
> suboptimal to me.
>
> - If a media type were created for archive documents, would APP  
> accept including application/atom+xml imply acceptance of archive  
> documents too?  Neither yes nor no feels like a satisfying answer.
>
>
> 3) Use @rel values to differentiate:
>
> - That territory is already a bit of a mess, what with "feed" vs.  
> "alternate" vs. "alternate feed" vs. "feed alternate" -- why make  
> it worse?
>
> + That territory is already a bit of a mess, what with "feed" vs.  
> "alternate" vs. "alternate feed" vs. "feed alternate" -- why not  
> work on all these messy problems in the same place?
>
> - That wouldn't help with the APP accept issue.
>
>
> 4) Create a new media type for entry documents, and add a parameter  
> to application/atom+xml to differentiate between live and archive  
> feeds (and for any other documents that have the identical format,  
> but should be handled differently in significant cases).
>
> - Doesn't prevent existing apps that ignore the parameter from  
> polling archive documents.
>
> + Does solve the rest of the problems without the negatives of #2  
> above.
>
>
> 5) Create a new media type for entry documents, and use @rel values  
> to solve issues that doesn't solve:
>
> +/- Messy territory
>
>
> If we were starting from scratch, I'd probably vote for #1.  Since  
> we're not, I'd vote for #4 first, and perhaps #5 second, but I'd  
> have to think about #5 more first.
>
> Antone
>




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On 1/12/06 5:21 AM, "Antone Roundy" <antone@geckotribe.com> wrote:

> 5) Create a new media type for entry documents, and use @rel values
> to solve issues that doesn't solve:
> 
> +/- Messy territory
> 
> 
> If we were starting from scratch, I'd probably vote for #1.  Since
> we're not, I'd vote for #4 first, and perhaps #5 second, but I'd have
> to think about #5 more first.

Starting from scratch, idealised, I'd want different media types (or params)
for entry documents and feed documents, and link type which clearly
indicates "this is for subscription", as distinct from "this is an alternate
representation", "this is an archive", etc.

Using the two mechanisms together allows combinations such as "here is a
feed you can subscribe to of the comments for this entry" and "here is a
feed document listing related resources, but since it won't likely be
updated don't bother subscribing".

I'd like to be able to use a lot of the link types we currently use for html
(directory, help, toc, related, next, etc) to refer to resources which
happen to be serialised in the atom feed document format, and feel safe in
knowing they won't be automagically treated as being subscription feeds.

e.




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Subject: Robert Sayre again banned from posting to the lists for 30 days
Cc: "Robert Sayre" <sayrer@gmail.com>
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Because of his recent ad hominem attacks, I have temporarily 
suspended Robert Sayre's posting privileges for the two Atompub WG 
mailing list for 30 days, as specified in RFC 3934. If you have 
questions or comments about this action, please first take them to 
Tim and me offline.




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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:30:53 -0800
From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
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The AD was kind enough to point out that this statement is likely a bit
too vague.  The intended meaning was that I have no involvement in, or
awareness of, IPR that is in any way relevant to the atom work.  And, as
far as I am aware, there's nothing I am required to disclose.

- James

James M Snell wrote:
> [snip]
> There's absolutely nothing to disclose.
> [snip]