From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue May 01 14:20:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hiwxm-00057q-Ta for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 01 May 2007 14:20:34 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hiwxl-0005cb-1g for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 01 May 2007 14:20:34 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l41Hw6ox026227 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 1 May 2007 10:58:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l41Hw6Td026226; Tue, 1 May 2007 10:58:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.168]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l41HvjkX026166 for ; Tue, 1 May 2007 10:58:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from foolistbar@googlemail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id j3so86998ugf for ; Tue, 01 May 2007 10:57:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:content-type:to:from:subject:date:x-mailer; b=d8yR3QW6oeyzjGNjOiMqCW1da+ESTWEwMnycJCSmFvIppcnZVHzRFERQeAvlFuoS5htbNiQYqT93woMmTgKo/m9/YT+9Vk1eBimtoiTbp0hVkeFGeTC/fLDqem7uRVtSW7SuOhd/yGPjN1VG9KVfnUBRGW2euTLn7fWF5OEZO8c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=beta; h=received:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:content-type:to:from:subject:date:x-mailer; b=uTXja1dMifskMtljORdjndshejhEvx3VIucRMKFq9c7An/70SjdBkz5RUviYYoB3jQjLjz7BW7tAof/lucmtMNnEUSXv76y5gvDZYN6kNnBPtTVGiFfLUUUQb78Jf4yl/BUzjU1okGpz3L36R0HRWOW809QuoYqxJ5lsAQ3jzjo= Received: by 10.66.221.6 with SMTP id t6mr497545ugg.1178042264374; Tue, 01 May 2007 10:57:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.0.7? ( [86.139.123.225]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id y7sm1228676ugc.2007.05.01.10.57.43; Tue, 01 May 2007 10:57:43 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: atom-syntax From: Geoffrey Sneddon Subject: atom:category@scheme Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 18:57:41 +0100 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 @scheme is defined as "The 'scheme' attribute is an IRI that identifies a categorization scheme". Is this therefore like atom:id, in that it is an identifier, and the actual IRI is meaningless. - Geoffrey Sneddon From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue May 01 14:53:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HixTB-000405-85 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 01 May 2007 14:53:01 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HixT9-0008WH-Q4 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 01 May 2007 14:53:01 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l41ISc4i031688 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 1 May 2007 11:28:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l41IScxA031687; Tue, 1 May 2007 11:28:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.238]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l41ISHcS031616 for ; Tue, 1 May 2007 11:28:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i30so1770601wxd for ; Tue, 01 May 2007 11:28:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Sad/bDe9LmDwcCbeuDt/PTFSyJH79guukHNvP2/xe6+vR9Tse1K2XXs/IdfLAprPTWkjQYBdE0Zzo2CgV7hBo662BgxquxJYfFf42fLHdXtmfoklpA95hGStNTkLMsBdi/Lh75QyfzuXAJ+d1mA/apYlgwQDgcvbt7hd2eUGSBs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=uqMaINcA1qXTb67GRRAmb9WK68aXLrijqGfSINAaEx5o8zFWFNuWYe0DEl6hz9FdDmO8XqGHyPaXTGzOdwFkjdEdGlwsibgsxay14jQeIVGFDWZajus8zP8nZmJb5oJu7Lf0sk/HnR5CsgYjgRtMopuBvj6A4EhRB4KbrhhOAH0= Received: by 10.70.16.6 with SMTP id 6mr2922418wxp.1178044088762; Tue, 01 May 2007 11:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?9.2.240.70? ( [129.34.20.23]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id q57sm11845186wrq.2007.05.01.11.28.07; Tue, 01 May 2007 11:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <463786B6.2080802@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 14:28:06 -0400 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (X11/20070403) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Geoffrey Sneddon CC: atom-syntax Subject: Re: atom:category@scheme References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 The IRI has meaning, it just may not be dereferenceable. - James Geoffrey Sneddon wrote: > > @scheme is defined as "The 'scheme' attribute is an IRI that identifies > a categorization scheme". Is this therefore like atom:id, in that it is > an identifier, and the actual IRI is meaningless. > > - Geoffrey Sneddon > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue May 01 16:25:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HiyuI-0007WI-J0 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 01 May 2007 16:25:06 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HiyuG-0004CV-UQ for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 01 May 2007 16:25:06 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l41K5ROJ048511 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 1 May 2007 13:05:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l41K5Rix048510; Tue, 1 May 2007 13:05:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id l41K55gB048445 for ; Tue, 1 May 2007 13:05:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 01 May 2007 20:05:04 -0000 Received: from static-87-79-236-202.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [87.79.236.202] by mail.gmx.net (mp057) with SMTP; 01 May 2007 22:05:04 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+kB2lED7ikAxeI7V5y2o5xjLHLrx16r/gz9MPdfU sRdzHsBv0ioIYD Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 22:05:04 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax Subject: Re: atom:category@scheme Message-ID: <20070501200504.GC20785@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id l41K5ROJ048511 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad * Geoffrey Sneddon [2007-05-01 20:20]: > @scheme is defined as "The 'scheme' attribute is an IRI that > identifies a categorization scheme". Is this therefore like > atom:id, in that it is an identifier, and the actual IRI is > meaningless. It=E2=80=99s just like `xmlns`. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 02 11:40:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjGwF-0002Ml-VO for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 02 May 2007 11:40:19 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjGwE-0002Gj-HZ for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 02 May 2007 11:40:19 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l42FJfNX017010 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 2 May 2007 08:19:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l42FJf0e017009; Wed, 2 May 2007 08:19:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.235]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l42FJeSR017002 for ; Wed, 2 May 2007 08:19:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i30so143041wxd for ; Wed, 02 May 2007 08:19:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=X+8OZTfPtgmE2n950GeakBYOlQ4RJ2lDui7vkcLvgVB9N4bEXO72pEo4uweRB7ZKs78CmkUs84pvBkpfsAeGztoWnhmoL+sa56yH/bPsqQSuwC/ev873JjwQNEOwqZaFONyedi8HknYVxTZKrUYg/jQcYdAGfg21Slw8niqeo94= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=pJLtJAhYivH4qLJAdogFlo2CuOjKzinK7OgwcwkVpgSxQ59KZX+dPh65OHLuWvK6uNtNYEK70I1x63LJBknWkmZv/TXzR6jbTKy0dP7RbL5EYDX0Eyq1rAH3yoXzTVrKWvFsDSpJqMYFxtCTAM+ZmriFd0axdQFdcbThhCoXplk= Received: by 10.90.113.20 with SMTP id l20mr538834agc.1178119178277; Wed, 02 May 2007 08:19:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?9.2.240.29? ( [129.34.20.23]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id 9sm1031699wrl.2007.05.02.08.19.37; Wed, 02 May 2007 08:19:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4638AC07.9060005@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 11:19:35 -0400 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (X11/20070403) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax , atom-protocol Subject: [Fwd: Document Action: 'Atom License Extension' to Experimental RFC] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5a9a1bd6c2d06a21d748b7d0070ddcb8 FYI... still waiting on the RFC#. - James -------- Original Message -------- [snip] The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Atom License Extension ' as an Experimental RFC This document has been reviewed in the IETF but is not the product of an IETF Working Group. The IESG contact person is Lisa Dusseault. A URL of this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-license-11.txt Technical Summary This document proposes a way to put license information into Atom feeds and entries. One possible use of such information is so that users can ask search engines to limit results to those that meet certain licenses, if licenses are sufficiently understood. Although there exist implementations that can put this license information in feeds and entries, we do not yet have examples of how this information is consumed and used. Combining this uncertainty with the fact that this is not a WG product, the AD feels that Experimental is an appropriate status and that literally, experimentation is hoped for and encouraged. Working Group Summary Not a WG document. Discussed on the AtomPub working group mailing list as a side project -- no dissent that wasn't dealt with. Protocol Quality Lisa Dusseault reviewed this for the IESG. There are implementations that generate license information in Atom feeds and entries, but none that consume it. IANA Note This specification defines one new Atom link relation type to be registered in the IANA Registry of Link Relations as defined by [RFC4287]. Please see section 4 for form. _______________________________________________ IETF-Announce mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 02 11:58:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjHDw-0002J9-0u for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 02 May 2007 11:58:36 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjHDu-0005a9-L8 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 02 May 2007 11:58:36 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l42FgJU7018838 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 2 May 2007 08:42:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l42FgJAm018837; Wed, 2 May 2007 08:42:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.238]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l42FfugR018819 for ; Wed, 2 May 2007 08:42:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from foolistbar@googlemail.com) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 50so169579wri for ; Wed, 02 May 2007 08:41:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:message-id:cc:content-transfer-encoding:from:subject:date:to:x-mailer; b=fxq1ercQkwW9UtgScVW2oL70g9wvy1ap6X2999t6qc1hzE+6d8FdiPNuSy04uSCn5Q9v8koevlV9WqtaiesFDXtC4CPDi988RzZAhEN5x928rS16PK0chVpz6Cw63v6eLYVUeKXtVp2hp3j4x9gNR7qLyU83GyRBaI7YdTXlHzA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=beta; h=received:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:message-id:cc:content-transfer-encoding:from:subject:date:to:x-mailer; b=Dii8jzQ0BNn5R9y1CaWhrDpqjt5QVJwS2pCiCBQGcDGNEpag1oSBNx1JH6Ip33i273kJeEGi1aFe0xjtmALUbUGA/JDuZ4wY7dXVQm4DU4hW7L6uCeq06vLF8kqUAEetbLa+mWAoPCZNQyDba41p2V1GTNnvUMRejmlL90S6O3E= Received: by 10.90.28.12 with SMTP id b12mr603160agb.1178120515513; Wed, 02 May 2007 08:41:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.0.7? ( [86.139.123.225]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id 5sm1193045ugc.2007.05.02.08.41.54; Wed, 02 May 2007 08:41:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <463786B6.2080802@gmail.com> References: <463786B6.2080802@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <2950B746-DA22-4171-A595-257AC733F2BC@googlemail.com> Cc: atom-syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Geoffrey Sneddon Subject: Re: atom:category@scheme Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 16:41:52 +0100 To: James M Snell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 On 1 May 2007, at 19:28, James M Snell wrote: > The IRI has meaning, it just may not be dereferenceable. What meaning? According to the spec it's just an identifier, not a unique identifier (like atom:id), so it isn't overly useful even within the same feed to use as an identifier. If it isn't dereferenceable and contain a page about the category, what practical use does it have? - Geoffrey Sneddon From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 02 12:16:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjHVX-0007ZJ-KK for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 02 May 2007 12:16:47 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjHVW-0000oC-8K for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 02 May 2007 12:16:47 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l42Fs8FZ021075 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 2 May 2007 08:54:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l42Fs8j7021074; Wed, 2 May 2007 08:54:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.227]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l42FrjjZ021015 for ; Wed, 2 May 2007 08:54:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 50so173900wri for ; Wed, 02 May 2007 08:53:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=W41x3Ol/6qg0R3oGzhDFaGPEFOjjpwJWEzsoubSvMgttZtCZ2bQH3Yy6+w22mAHb+Svshb8HN7OG+ITYA8YYBOA6Oi6vR7A9frwCJGWU5DDRCBqdAnfNjwOkJJOYTo3ardez6qfNyCdYvq6yfggFOuvReJU5n3R92DgLruJGlbA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Th0c8wabK4cw4OhhKE0dg2NrJDd/v/B3ga2Ihm/x+aV03PwaJr/WzgzwK0k/MW8wK2i2O7xLRLfdvXAJWsf4iReI4DjZxHNqTTIdJViyNEnUyX/AB4mIhI1fpCRzkaoDxNfvCzmxCLFY6y4sxLjphSvexTHSb6MMUDope1p1cWk= Received: by 10.90.95.11 with SMTP id s11mr621619agb.1178121225191; Wed, 02 May 2007 08:53:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?9.2.240.29? ( [129.34.20.23]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id 43sm1062734wri.2007.05.02.08.53.42; Wed, 02 May 2007 08:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4638B404.2000100@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 11:53:40 -0400 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (X11/20070403) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Geoffrey Sneddon CC: atom-syntax Subject: Re: atom:category@scheme References: <463786B6.2080802@gmail.com> <2950B746-DA22-4171-A595-257AC733F2BC@googlemail.com> In-Reply-To: <2950B746-DA22-4171-A595-257AC733F2BC@googlemail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 The meaning is application dependent. For instance, Lotus Connections uses a category scheme value "http://www.ibm.com/xmlns/prod/sn/type", which when used with a set of specific terms (e.g. "message", "bookmark", "chat", etc) has a very specific meaning in the Lotus Connections product. Essentially, the scheme identifies the ontology to which the term belongs. - James Geoffrey Sneddon wrote: > > On 1 May 2007, at 19:28, James M Snell wrote: > >> The IRI has meaning, it just may not be dereferenceable. > > What meaning? According to the spec it's just an identifier, not a > unique identifier (like atom:id), so it isn't overly useful even within > the same feed to use as an identifier. If it isn't dereferenceable and > contain a page about the category, what practical use does it have? > > > - Geoffrey Sneddon > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu May 03 13:37:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjfEy-0004L3-4H for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 03 May 2007 13:37:16 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjfEw-000569-Ol for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 03 May 2007 13:37:16 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l43HEvre055725 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 3 May 2007 10:14:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l43HEvnN055724; Thu, 3 May 2007 10:14:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.169]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l43HEaqZ055685 for ; Thu, 3 May 2007 10:14:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from foolistbar@googlemail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id j3so463967ugf for ; Thu, 03 May 2007 10:14:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:message-id:cc:content-transfer-encoding:from:subject:date:to:x-mailer; b=YIihhzSxxdoTe9pHq+zqQBq52fe/NIlej3ipicjFwwocNVmX6yvpCOPw1+0ulysT+23ZmZqabhn5y+Yj5M/9cApP9dZdW+slxEdTN7PKx8KlC33zU0kIhT/DWq8YGjfr4ioM5DAY4y/zzFEUu5zzQykeJNsgBiJD6EePgsq7S+o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=beta; h=received:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:message-id:cc:content-transfer-encoding:from:subject:date:to:x-mailer; b=JosSofZttA1M30baaRrOAKXlxqUXuz4i0S1yCn6cClCuddPSvJe7TaFTHe2CylQzo2O7D7G6A80vEB8vaGnAraGX7NqedHj9TIGSfmQbrJwtMUn0ddXkx3djYGtRJYpiiRd8PUVUzqo2FlWid/sYzyMbXhN4ZJyXwgQ9ejdfTck= Received: by 10.66.220.17 with SMTP id s17mr2037085ugg.1178212473684; Thu, 03 May 2007 10:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.0.7? ( [86.139.123.225]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id j2sm2955971ugf.2007.05.03.10.14.32; Thu, 03 May 2007 10:14:32 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4638B404.2000100@gmail.com> References: <463786B6.2080802@gmail.com> <2950B746-DA22-4171-A595-257AC733F2BC@googlemail.com> <4638B404.2000100@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <991EC3D5-BA02-4889-A09F-14569D99AAEB@googlemail.com> Cc: atom-syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Geoffrey Sneddon Subject: Re: atom:category@scheme Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 18:14:30 +0100 To: James M Snell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 On 2 May 2007, at 16:53, James M Snell wrote: > The meaning is application dependent. For instance, Lotus Connections > uses a category scheme value "http://www.ibm.com/xmlns/prod/sn/type", > which when used with a set of specific terms (e.g. "message", > "bookmark", "chat", etc) has a very specific meaning in the Lotus > Connections product. If it's application specific, I assume the attribute itself has no semantics. I fail to see how this is useful for aggregators whatsoever, as its content could mean almost anything. Application specific things should probably be left to namespaces where attributes can be defined with actual semantics. - Geoffrey Sneddon From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu May 03 13:41:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjfJ8-0008UC-St for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 03 May 2007 13:41:34 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjfJ7-0005zb-Gt for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 03 May 2007 13:41:34 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l43HRUM2058437 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 3 May 2007 10:27:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l43HRUXn058436; Thu, 3 May 2007 10:27:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail1.webfaction.com (mail1.webfaction.com [67.15.2.85]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l43HRQLf058420 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 3 May 2007 10:27:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from sh@defuze.org) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (host81-159-18-60.range81-159.btcentralplus.com [81.159.18.60]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail1.webfaction.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l43HRAqD011139; Thu, 3 May 2007 12:27:11 -0500 Message-ID: <463A1B68.7000501@defuze.org> Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 18:27:04 +0100 From: Sylvain Hellegouarch User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (X11/20070306) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Geoffrey Sneddon CC: James M Snell , atom-syntax Subject: Re: atom:category@scheme References: <463786B6.2080802@gmail.com> <2950B746-DA22-4171-A595-257AC733F2BC@googlemail.com> <4638B404.2000100@gmail.com> <991EC3D5-BA02-4889-A09F-14569D99AAEB@googlemail.com> In-Reply-To: <991EC3D5-BA02-4889-A09F-14569D99AAEB@googlemail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Geoffrey Sneddon wrote: > > > On 2 May 2007, at 16:53, James M Snell wrote: > >> The meaning is application dependent. For instance, Lotus Connections >> uses a category scheme value "http://www.ibm.com/xmlns/prod/sn/type", >> which when used with a set of specific terms (e.g. "message", >> "bookmark", "chat", etc) has a very specific meaning in the Lotus >> Connections product. > > If it's application specific, I assume the attribute itself has no > semantics. I fail to see how this is useful for aggregators whatsoever, > as its content could mean almost anything. Application specific things > should probably be left to namespaces where attributes can be defined > with actual semantics. It may be worthless to aggregators but a powerful attribute for applications that are built atop APP. Imagines a CMS that uses APP to perform its operations, the scheme could denote different meaning within the context of the CMS. You could also imagine an automated service that "converses" with an APP service. This automation could give a specific meaning to the scheme attribute again. APP goes way beyond the aggregators-space. - Sylvain From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu May 03 14:28:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hjg2b-0003Sk-01 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 03 May 2007 14:28:33 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hjg2Z-00015U-Kd for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 03 May 2007 14:28:32 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l43IBlhL066603 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 3 May 2007 11:11:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l43IBlwn066602; Thu, 3 May 2007 11:11:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chilco.textdrive.com (chilco.textdrive.com [207.7.108.242]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l43IBlOQ066596 for ; Thu, 3 May 2007 11:11:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: from [192.168.2.180] (83-70-229-162.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net [83.70.229.162]) by chilco.textdrive.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E898DCB65 for ; Thu, 3 May 2007 18:11:46 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <463A25DE.2070503@dehora.net> Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 19:11:42 +0100 From: Bill de hOra User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (X11/20070403) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax Subject: Re: atom:category@scheme References: <463786B6.2080802@gmail.com> <2950B746-DA22-4171-A595-257AC733F2BC@googlemail.com> <4638B404.2000100@gmail.com> <991EC3D5-BA02-4889-A09F-14569D99AAEB@googlemail.com> In-Reply-To: <991EC3D5-BA02-4889-A09F-14569D99AAEB@googlemail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Geoffrey Sneddon wrote: > > > On 2 May 2007, at 16:53, James M Snell wrote: > >> The meaning is application dependent. For instance, Lotus Connections >> uses a category scheme value "http://www.ibm.com/xmlns/prod/sn/type", >> which when used with a set of specific terms (e.g. "message", >> "bookmark", "chat", etc) has a very specific meaning in the Lotus >> Connections product. > > If it's application specific, I assume the attribute itself has no > semantics. I fail to see how this is useful for aggregators whatsoever, > as its content could mean almost anything. Application specific things > should probably be left to namespaces where attributes can be defined > with actual semantics. You're conflating "practical use" with "complete unambiguity". Don't start from there. Not even languages with actual semantics (KIF, RDF) will give you that. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu May 03 14:29:31 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hjg3X-0005nF-CB for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 03 May 2007 14:29:31 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hjg3X-0001MQ-0J for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 03 May 2007 14:29:31 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l43I9t35066170 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 3 May 2007 11:09:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l43I9tAp066167; Thu, 3 May 2007 11:09:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.172]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l43I9Xar066057 for ; Thu, 3 May 2007 11:09:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from foolistbar@googlemail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id j3so474163ugf for ; Thu, 03 May 2007 11:09:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:message-id:cc:content-transfer-encoding:from:subject:date:to:x-mailer; b=jPKWfHwq9Lprs6+qYCNI0PIoxh9Mckjp3rOO7277nIznueygLJefde/GsnHyQDfn4UFJfUYZWUrqK/eKjjVFxtRpeA87mWZ2sf4vMzKnBEbzpP5YPYSkoRUTJQJxn8wjTO/fUFPX31x6Rke6tWjrS+tm4uHiC6jfacMJK0DrpOE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=beta; h=received:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:message-id:cc:content-transfer-encoding:from:subject:date:to:x-mailer; b=dglK2KjlzrCD/AvW9Csa6+vUqNPa+rBPwwUAjqxkELYzNnhlbrQhxMgGEZHmgnDtBnMfkr9cFS5Rlk7r6TnFppsnSqGuPzoxmyfmVMFKixp08WmT9ILN/sialxnOaz1vcH09lxEkrxv0ixihGDshSRZiodgyffiCkpIcC9Iwypo= Received: by 10.66.243.4 with SMTP id q4mr2055506ugh.1178215773008; Thu, 03 May 2007 11:09:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.0.7? ( [86.139.123.225]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id 13sm3057565ugb.2007.05.03.11.09.31; Thu, 03 May 2007 11:09:32 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <463A1B68.7000501@defuze.org> References: <463786B6.2080802@gmail.com> <2950B746-DA22-4171-A595-257AC733F2BC@googlemail.com> <4638B404.2000100@gmail.com> <991EC3D5-BA02-4889-A09F-14569D99AAEB@googlemail.com> <463A1B68.7000501@defuze.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: atom-syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Geoffrey Sneddon Subject: Re: atom:category@scheme Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 19:09:30 +0100 To: Sylvain Hellegouarch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 On 3 May 2007, at 18:27, Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote: > Geoffrey Sneddon wrote: >> >> >> On 2 May 2007, at 16:53, James M Snell wrote: >> >>> The meaning is application dependent. For instance, Lotus >>> Connections >>> uses a category scheme value "http://www.ibm.com/xmlns/prod/sn/ >>> type", >>> which when used with a set of specific terms (e.g. "message", >>> "bookmark", "chat", etc) has a very specific meaning in the Lotus >>> Connections product. >> >> If it's application specific, I assume the attribute itself has no >> semantics. I fail to see how this is useful for aggregators >> whatsoever, >> as its content could mean almost anything. Application specific >> things >> should probably be left to namespaces where attributes can be defined >> with actual semantics. > > It may be worthless to aggregators but a powerful attribute for > applications that are built atop APP. Imagines a CMS that uses APP to > perform its operations, the scheme could denote different meaning > within > the context of the CMS. > > You could also imagine an automated service that "converses" with > an APP > service. This automation could give a specific meaning to the scheme > attribute again. > > APP goes way beyond the aggregators-space. Surely it would therefore be defined in APP then, not the syndication format? - Geoffrey Sneddon From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue May 08 19:45:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HlZMp-0003Vs-C2 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 08 May 2007 19:45:15 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HlZMn-0005mr-LU for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 08 May 2007 19:45:15 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l48NIdNB047591 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 8 May 2007 16:18:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l48NIdsq047590; Tue, 8 May 2007 16:18:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.225]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l48NIIit047462 for ; Tue, 8 May 2007 16:18:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i30so3926wxd for ; Tue, 08 May 2007 16:18:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=fZ82NmohzZ6KrVW3jSTd/vSD+pjrv9VMAx9kQmww+lVlro5RkI2znEgXn0bSlNnlfe/45iqUWJN8y3iwVqbCBlY78fxAljtL78GYjRlOYCDb+bJVc4EqlXCEeI7oHtCm2gvY0F8VZklbjYGJ7DpxQBh0VQInfiACUGsHM7eZNRQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=EO2Jo6QLO3XFXSnE6NQmGAa1jhc4lKJED3XJmrIrOHVWI27WltFfLitQAxt8+2kxHgdvjCbLld3Ka4cZK9XHSyWINRmONBI1M2RrEGxoRHDB9hadDBQPD92lYesArW6Lwit2tW/7vBBIkqAbIS516hC2h7weA3BeR4kTgqhOIyU= Received: by 10.70.92.14 with SMTP id p14mr15140915wxb.1178666297663; Tue, 08 May 2007 16:18:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ( [67.181.218.96]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id 33sm10684098wra.2007.05.08.16.18.16; Tue, 08 May 2007 16:18:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <46410537.6030402@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 16:18:15 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070326) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax Subject: Atom Bidi Attribute Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 I've published a minor update for the Atom Bidi Attribute specification [1]. I'm considering this draft complete and have sent a request to the AD requesting a Last Call. - James [1] http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-bidi-04.txt From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue May 08 20:39:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HlaDW-00057t-3h for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 08 May 2007 20:39:42 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HlaDU-0005EU-OO for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 08 May 2007 20:39:42 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l490P1j0069461 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 8 May 2007 17:25:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l490P18R069460; Tue, 8 May 2007 17:25:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.230]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l490OerP069339 for ; Tue, 8 May 2007 17:25:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 50so18103wri for ; Tue, 08 May 2007 17:24:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ZVpvrvQLLr8Nsm9IDG47CvgHf7fLHvjG5Qz4CNNPZkSa3rcaHki3d4ZB19RajgHw3z5+Fx4OYNZheKm/gz/dagpiva8b31Ij3JxshoFphTuQ0NWIyN/zRs95iYyUXg3E0bcz9YPVkWGp1lT33pE1oQaW91x9gxGUwoL5C2i4aP4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=lZJlu7vKZdFG9rlTXJlUBBTF92Nf5Rl+60lYI4LeT8fwkzi/pVwtMHKa5vIPB8KCZNQFY/2IJiM9vOOyOS6mvHkOzHEenknPAWDTKAOtbq6FMPpCUzYaYQEVhumQznvQtWdViuY3Tq2F6tt2O8zGLsB1QFcqoYg4lGuMiAblu70= Received: by 10.90.81.14 with SMTP id e14mr7025449agb.1178670277801; Tue, 08 May 2007 17:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ( [67.181.218.96]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id 4sm9169999aga.2007.05.08.17.24.37; Tue, 08 May 2007 17:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <464114C4.2080501@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 17:24:36 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070326) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax Subject: Atom bidi attribute, empty string value Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 In an offline note, Franklin Tse asked about the empty string value for the bidi attribute. He had raised an issue before about whether that could be dropped, which I had originally decided to go ahead and do. However, after going through a number of aggregated feed scenarios, having the ability to explicitly state that no default direction had been specified seemed to be more important than relying on a default direction of LTR. I can definitely be convinced otherwise, of course. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 09 05:29:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HliUB-0003tG-GV for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 09 May 2007 05:29:27 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HliUA-0002N8-Pg for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 09 May 2007 05:29:27 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l499AVuD023209 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 9 May 2007 02:10:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l499AUDA023208; Wed, 9 May 2007 02:10:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc1-s37.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc1-s37.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.109]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l499AAB6023101 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 02:10:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from peaceable_whale@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.133.12]) by bay0-omc1-s37.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Wed, 9 May 2007 02:10:09 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 9 May 2007 02:10:09 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 61.238.43.155 by BAY128-DAV2.phx.gbl with DAV; Wed, 09 May 2007 09:10:05 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [61.238.43.155] X-Originating-Email: [peaceable_whale@hotmail.com] X-Sender: peaceable_whale@hotmail.com From: "Franklin Tse" To: "James M Snell" Cc: "atom-syntax" References: <464114C4.2080501@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Atom bidi attribute, empty string value Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 17:10:04 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail desktop 8.0.1226 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V8.0.1226 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 May 2007 09:10:09.0706 (UTC) FILETIME=[D7E168A0:01C79219] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id l499AUB6023202 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a Um... When an aggregator uses the empty "dir" attribute in an entry of an aggregated feed, it is actually asking another Atom processor to decide the text direction of that entry. Feed readers that read the aggregated feed may have difficulty in processing the entry, for example: ... ... ... ... ... ... For the second entry, what should feed readers do? They should of course apply the default of the "dir" attribute, but what is the default value of the "dir" attribute? it is currently not specified in the draft. In addition, should they apply the direction guessing mechanism if they support it? The entry's base language is currently "he", inherited from atom:feed. However, in the draft: For compatibility with existing Atom documents that rely on direction guessing, user agents MAY perform direction guessing in documents that do not contain a "dir" attribute but they SHOULD NOT do so when a "dir" attribute is provided. When an Atom document contain a "dir" attribute, Atom processors should not apply any direction guessing mechanism. If that is the case, does an empty string mean that direction guessing can be used? As mentioned above, the default value of the "dir" attribute is not specified. I think the default can either be "ltr" or implementation-dependent (http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt20/#dt-implementation-dependent). But whatever it is, the default should be mentioned. Franklin PS: In the example above, if the second entry comes from a source feed that does not contain any "xml:lang" attribute or "dir", aggregators have to generate xml:lang=""[1][2] and dir="" together. (). It is very problematic if only dir="" is generated. References: 1. http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-3.4.1 2. http://www.w3.org/TR/xml/#sec-lang-tag ----- Original Message ----- From: "James M Snell" To: "atom-syntax" Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 08:24 Subject: Atom bidi attribute, empty string value > > In an offline note, Franklin Tse asked about the empty string value for > the bidi attribute. He had raised an issue before about whether that > could be dropped, which I had originally decided to go ahead and do. > However, after going through a number of aggregated feed scenarios, > having the ability to explicitly state that no default direction had > been specified seemed to be more important than relying on a default > direction of LTR. I can definitely be convinced otherwise, of course. > > - James > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 09 12:02:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HlocH-000649-9i for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 09 May 2007 12:02:13 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HlocG-0004Tu-TJ for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 09 May 2007 12:02:13 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l49FdYTE016327 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 9 May 2007 08:39:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l49FdY4r016326; Wed, 9 May 2007 08:39:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.228]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l49FdDnY016263 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 08:39:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i30so207990wxd for ; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:39:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=OoRfkE9YVl6B6MjquvlVLuS75i84JgdKUIRYSFT3XL4YEjYmrAcDmXezM50JlTEBb9cqIyCnbwc7h1AYfbYheBcIcuYTzX4sIPu7uuWsTLQIf6Ih5j5VDI2h4Rl6lWXaxH2LDHqPGDDVGn3Cdp6jBlwPc49g4ArIiNu+8QjQg2U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Ld/sUUpcz9t4dupmSn+kS/DCulPyQ96th94cOqkSxysI60pTIy8Zl5+9y1uNLZE+JAC45KHpW7OzMj+j3rFW++dibllT+jKEWYCq/HL/YVVtiPRI3lxAtnaxedU4fJoM2fMVxgEVArjrVSFN6+O9xUgq6im45alLwcYevt4+LXk= Received: by 10.90.90.16 with SMTP id n16mr470217agb.1178725149897; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:39:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ( [67.181.218.96]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id 13sm4208107wrl.2007.05.09.08.39.09; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:39:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4641EB1B.3080906@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 08:39:07 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070326) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Franklin Tse CC: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Atom bidi attribute, empty string value References: <464114C4.2080501@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Franklin Tse wrote: > Um... > > When an aggregator uses the empty "dir" attribute in an entry of an aggregated feed, it is actually asking another Atom processor to decide the text direction of that entry. Feed readers that read the aggregated feed may have difficulty in processing the entry, for example: > Yes.. but they're not asking those processors to do anything more than what is currently already required. > [snip] > For the second entry, what should feed readers do? They should of course apply the default of the "dir" attribute, but what is the default value of the "dir" attribute? it is currently not specified in the draft. In addition, should they apply the direction guessing mechanism if they support it? The entry's base language is currently "he", inherited from atom:feed. > > However, in the draft: > > For compatibility with existing Atom documents that rely on direction > guessing, user agents MAY perform direction guessing in documents > that do not contain a "dir" attribute but they SHOULD NOT do so when > a "dir" attribute is provided. > > When an Atom document contain a "dir" attribute, Atom processors should not apply any direction guessing mechanism. If that is the case, does an empty string mean that direction guessing can be used? > This is a spec bug. I had meant to change that to: ... user agents MAY perform direction guessing in documents where the base direction is unspecified but they SHOULD NOT do so when a "dir" attribute value of "ltr" or "rtl" is provided. This will allow user agents to apply whatever heuristics it wants to determine the base directionality where the dir is unspecified. I will fix this in another iteration. > [snip] > PS: In the example above, if the second entry comes from a source feed that does not contain any "xml:lang" attribute or "dir", aggregators have to generate xml:lang=""[1][2] and dir="" together. (). It is very problematic if only dir="" is generated. > Yep. Not sure if this needs to be discussed in this doc, however. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 09 12:31:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hlp4C-00079u-V7 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 09 May 2007 12:31:04 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hlp4A-0000cn-9Q for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 09 May 2007 12:31:04 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l49GCABe022834 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 9 May 2007 09:12:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l49GCAhU022831; Wed, 9 May 2007 09:12:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc3-s16.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc3-s16.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.216]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l49GBnLX022739 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 09:12:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from peaceable_whale@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.133.11]) by bay0-omc3-s16.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Wed, 9 May 2007 09:11:49 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 9 May 2007 09:11:48 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 61.238.43.155 by BAY128-DAV1.phx.gbl with DAV; Wed, 09 May 2007 16:11:44 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [61.238.43.155] X-Originating-Email: [peaceable_whale@hotmail.com] X-Sender: peaceable_whale@hotmail.com From: "Franklin Tse" To: "James M Snell" Cc: "atom-syntax" References: <464114C4.2080501@gmail.com> <4641EB1B.3080906@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Atom bidi attribute, empty string value Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 00:11:42 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail desktop 8.0.1226 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V8.0.1226 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 May 2007 16:11:48.0924 (UTC) FILETIME=[BF63B7C0:01C79254] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id l49GC9LX022814 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 > Yes.. but they're not asking those processors to do anything more than > what is currently already required. If developers of aggregators want to use dir="", I will be fine. But the use of dir="" in normal feed should be strongly discouraged... feed authors should specify the text direction... > This is a spec bug. I had meant to change that to: > > ... user agents MAY perform direction guessing in documents where the > base direction is unspecified but they SHOULD NOT do so when a "dir" > attribute value of "ltr" or "rtl" is provided. > > This will allow user agents to apply whatever heuristics it wants to > determine the base directionality where the dir is unspecified. > > I will fix this in another iteration. "in elements" may be better than "in documents" if direction guessing is allowed when dir="" is used in an element and inherited. >> PS: In the example above, if the second entry comes from a source feed that does not contain any "xml:lang" attribute or "dir", aggregators have to generate xml:lang=""[1][2] and dir="" together. (). It is very problematic if only dir="" is generated. >> > > Yep. Not sure if this needs to be discussed in this doc, however. Um... if your draft has a section called "Relation with the xml:lang attribute", then that should be discussed. By the way, dir="default" or dir="unknown" seems clearer than dir="". Franklin From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 09 13:05:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HlpbN-0001BU-1m for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:05:21 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HlpbM-0006sk-Lo for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:05:21 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l49Gfuvx030463 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 9 May 2007 09:41:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l49GfuiJ030462; Wed, 9 May 2007 09:41:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.235]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l49GfZKY030386 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 09:41:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i30so228154wxd for ; Wed, 09 May 2007 09:41:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=KHjSB8tUuWVkkVnAQkBLEDQEkgEoRACXmRrtOWqfCjnIyD5wvHRIFsemC2dcYMWThIv3KKTaCeqKUCyg8Esy+tcI36TnV44/mlzt0tfYRSmdxqe1ptOA0q6Z/Tk1dvmlUP7R5Df2NUA7+Dt4FNxnJZMDYRj0stJrUraNkYO6+RA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=um4NiO9ut2EARncb2Si92qpzLhhcCmKl8tGW6yys2ZwhJHbKKHb1LSr4ZrbEsFjGA6jJJI7jFo7oNPTNpl5JoFAFSegDijigMQxSTSCAGznlMR4E+gkpC5GWOUuYq8+4qaUc+u8LxSZdK8EygLC44QncgZL5yPSstrR7/7ruD1E= Received: by 10.90.113.18 with SMTP id l18mr588716agc.1178728895013; Wed, 09 May 2007 09:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ( [67.181.218.96]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id 27sm11659740wra.2007.05.09.09.41.33; Wed, 09 May 2007 09:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4641F9BC.7090904@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 09:41:32 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070326) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Franklin Tse CC: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Atom bidi attribute, empty string value References: <464114C4.2080501@gmail.com> <4641EB1B.3080906@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Franklin Tse wrote: >> Yes.. but they're not asking those processors to do anything more than >> what is currently already required. > > If developers of aggregators want to use dir="", I will be fine. But the use of dir="" in normal feed should be strongly discouraged... feed authors should specify the text direction... > Good point. I can add some language discouraging the use of dir="" by content publishers. > [snip] >> I will fix this in another iteration. > > "in elements" may be better than "in documents" if direction guessing is allowed when dir="" is used in an element and inherited. > +1 >>> PS: In the example above, if the second entry comes from a source feed that does not contain any "xml:lang" attribute or "dir", aggregators have to generate xml:lang=""[1][2] and dir="" together. (). It is very problematic if only dir="" is generated. >>> >> Yep. Not sure if this needs to be discussed in this doc, however. > > Um... if your draft has a section called "Relation with the xml:lang attribute", then that should be discussed. > There is no such section currently. > By the way, dir="default" or dir="unknown" seems clearer than dir="". > Clearer yes, but the empty string is more consistent with existing xml:lang and xmlns conventions. - James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 09 20:23:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HlwRM-0005xf-II for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 09 May 2007 20:23:28 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HlwRK-0006QD-Sz for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 09 May 2007 20:23:28 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4A019AE064665 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 9 May 2007 17:01:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4A01931064664; Wed, 9 May 2007 17:01:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.174]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4A00mOq064535 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 17:01:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from bobwyman@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id j3so423067ugf for ; Wed, 09 May 2007 17:00:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=R4oGLf6qtIS7mk56mvqsrdWx40CyNTr3c6tqXqEP8OOYfUw2pW+Ft/G5peSgqGALEh7JMQuVXr6t6ELpbd8ZB0yvSB9eyqhZkvh/vcP8R81bj/0uvkRyWVi0xVDeAcNsuHijoC376NQ0xI6RsUMOz3wG9XUZ4KhXJW9V/ukmmMQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=LMQ8EnZITbYmi0Qv/Dl0JYMxlb/RBVVQcJep+k9jPtsZ1GkELfJkfftRWq3hOeS45+lLWO5DHyXtk5FsyC8WNkVjG5IOIKEjKuXjx9Yh8UFFG1RAojhV5Bgic7Wm7+s4EX6fQmVrCcUp18rndnu+kygNIaT4ldLoLDZOQXhjMSw= Received: by 10.67.115.11 with SMTP id s11mr1419838ugm.1178755244904; Wed, 09 May 2007 17:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.67.64.20 with HTTP; Wed, 9 May 2007 17:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <45be5cd40705091700g7a8d1d35y5a0704d644058590@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 20:00:44 -0400 From: "Bob Wyman" To: "Geoffrey Sneddon" Subject: Re: atom:category@scheme Cc: "James M Snell" , atom-syntax In-Reply-To: <991EC3D5-BA02-4889-A09F-14569D99AAEB@googlemail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_112060_27984014.1178755244776" References: <463786B6.2080802@gmail.com> <2950B746-DA22-4171-A595-257AC733F2BC@googlemail.com> <4638B404.2000100@gmail.com> <991EC3D5-BA02-4889-A09F-14569D99AAEB@googlemail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: efb606d5e60b3737 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b280b4db656c3ca28dd62e5e0b03daa8 ------=_Part_112060_27984014.1178755244776 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 5/3/07, Geoffrey Sneddon wrote: On 2 May 2007, at 16:53, James M Snell wrote: >> The meaning is application dependent. For instance, Lotus >> Connections uses a category scheme value "http://www.ibm >> .com/xmlns/prod/sn/type", which when used with a set of >> specific terms (e.g. "message", "bookmark", "chat", etc) has >> a very specific meaning in the Lotus Connections product. >If it's application specific, I assume the attribute itself has no > semantics. I fail to see how this is useful for aggregators > whatsoever, as its content could mean almost anything. > Application specific things should probably be left to > namespaces where attributes can be defined with actual semantics. The problem here is that something is missing in Atom's set of category attributes. (This was brought up long ago.) For an aggregator to make sense of a category within a particular schema, it must either have knowledge of the specific schema or it must have a mechanism to do inference about the similarity of items in different schemas -- at least one of which that it understands. Given this, what we see is that the Atom category tag (and many other tagging schemes) really should be much more like what is defined in XTM[1]. The missing, secret sauce that is in XTM (and Topic Maps generally) that is NOT in Atom categories is the "Published Subject Indicator." The PSI is a schema independent URI for the particular concept or thing that is being tagged. Given a subject indicator, it is possible to map between ontologies. For instance, I can have a German ontology that contains the word "Buch" and an English ontology that contains the word "Book" and I can link them both together if we can agree that the Published Subject Indicator (resource) for these things is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book. Similarly, two ontologies, one which refers to "pro-choice" and the other to "baby-killing" can be linked if both entries link to an ontology independent published subject indicator. Often, there is great agreement between ontology developers concerning the objective identity of the things that they classify. "What you're talking about" isn't the issue. It is "What you say about it" that is the problem. For instance, you may build a list "Great US Presidents" and someone else might build a list of "Worst National Leaders." It is likely that you'll both agree completely that any references to "George Bush" in either list refer to precisely the same individual but, while you agree on who you're talking about, you'll probably disagree on Bush's proper place within each ontology. In a case like this, you should use a Published Subject Indicator to allow mapping between the two ontologies. The PSI is neutral, the position within the ontology is not... In general, I believe the fact that we don't seem to understand the potential uses of Published Subject Indicators is one of the biggest things holding back tagging systems and systems for doing interchange between ontologies... XTM shows the way to do this usefully... Atom's category element should have a "subject-indicator" attribute in addition to label and schema. bob wyman [1] http://www.topicmaps.org/xtm/index.html ------=_Part_112060_27984014.1178755244776 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 5/3/07, Geoffrey Sneddon <foolistbar@googlemail.com> wrote:
On 2 May 2007, at 16:53, James M Snell wrote:
>> The meaning is application dependent.  For instance, Lotus
>> Connections uses a category scheme value "http://www.ibm
>> .com/xmlns/prod/sn/type", which when used with a set of
>> specific terms (e.g. "message", "bookmark", "chat", etc) has
>> a very specific meaning in the Lotus Connections product.
>If it's application specific, I assume the attribute itself has no
> semantics. I fail to see how this is useful for aggregators
> whatsoever, as its content could mean almost anything.
> Application specific things should probably be left to
> namespaces where attributes can be defined with actual semantics.

The problem here is that something is missing in Atom's set of category attributes. (This was brought up long ago.) For an aggregator to make sense of a category within a particular schema, it must either have knowledge of the specific schema or it must have a mechanism to do inference about the similarity of items in different schemas -- at least one of which that it understands. Given this, what we see is that the Atom category tag (and many other tagging schemes) really should be much more like what is defined in XTM[1]. The missing, secret sauce that is in XTM (and Topic Maps generally) that is NOT in Atom categories is the " Published Subject Indicator." The PSI is a schema independent URI for the particular concept or thing that is being tagged. Given a subject indicator, it is possible to map between ontologies. For instance, I can have a German ontology that contains the word "Buch" and an English ontology that contains the word "Book" and I can link them both together if we can agree that the Published Subject Indicator (resource) for these things is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book. Similarly, two ontologies, one which refers to "pro-choice" and the other to "baby-killing" can be linked if both entries link to an ontology independent published subject indicator.

Often, there is great agreement between ontology developers concerning the objective identity of the things that they classify. "What you're talking about" isn't the issue. It is "What you say about it" that is the problem. For instance, you may build a list "Great US Presidents" and someone else might build a list of "Worst National Leaders." It is likely that you'll both agree completely that any references to "George Bush" in either list refer to precisely the same individual but, while you agree on who you're talking about, you'll probably disagree on Bush's proper place within each ontology. In a case like this, you should use a Published Subject Indicator to allow mapping between the two ontologies. The PSI is neutral, the position within the ontology is not...

In general, I believe the fact that we don't seem to understand the potential uses of Published Subject Indicators is one of the biggest things holding back tagging systems and systems for doing interchange between ontologies... XTM shows the way to do this usefully...

Atom's category element should have a "subject-indicator" attribute in addition to label and schema.

bob wyman

[1] http://www.topicmaps.org/xtm/index.html

------=_Part_112060_27984014.1178755244776-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu May 10 03:26:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hm32L-0002hh-OR for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 03:26:05 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hm32J-00025B-Cf for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 03:26:05 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4A75iQe084684 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 10 May 2007 00:05:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4A75icX084683; Thu, 10 May 2007 00:05:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.11]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id l4A75MXp084561 for ; Thu, 10 May 2007 00:05:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] ([203.30.247.18] verified) by ironclad.net.au (Stalker SMTP Server 1.7) with ESMTP id S.1902500821 for ; Thu, 10 May 2007 17:05:20 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 17:05:24 +1000 Subject: Re: atom:category@scheme From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <45be5cd40705091700g7a8d1d35y5a0704d644058590@mail.gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f On 10/5/07 10:00 AM, "Bob Wyman" wrote: > [...] agree pretty much up until here: > Atom's category element should have a "subject-indicator" attribute in > addition to label and schema. in XTM and others, the PSI isn't a sole attribute, but instead a given category could have multiple PSI, and hopefully one or two in common with the PSIs that you are using in your schema. As such, is there any reason we can't do something like this: Hmmm ... better yet: (hrmmm again though ... while atom:category allows for undefinedContent as child elements, the RNG definition of undefinedContent disallows atom:* ... meaning we can't do the second example above. Bugger. Think anyone will notice?) e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu May 10 11:23:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmATy-0002Ms-5V for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 11:23:06 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmATv-00049e-HG for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 11:23:06 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4AF3aML001658 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 10 May 2007 08:03:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4AF3a5f001657; Thu, 10 May 2007 08:03:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.232]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4AF3FjM001604 for ; Thu, 10 May 2007 08:03:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from bobwyman@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i30so535681wxd for ; Thu, 10 May 2007 08:03:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=nhfXslDJsCTLFU7/1Fyiw0ukhwk0cIA3XtoB2hhvSvNci9IwwNyirJivgXHfwDHps9VuMc9esBlgnqouCztGUwyiCOeAeCyjs+6894sCYW8M7XinGpenorNsnb4exCiFEhUlrBO0doB0CLMrOFExihCA9C2BckWddNbuXm9SLyU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=hI41NG4nn9hKE5ML9TBqgLXzvA4Uzz4NyeCgVQhCOx193ATgd+MBWaobUS+OU2WOJRmpVQfbRyIpL6+vzmPgIxoEVvXC47q4QwBi5MYeDZUSecgS6P/WxaMeCp74sD7mhal/oa98Zlfgq5TrC8mPCnDSq6lxXzsx2/93Q4THdxw= Received: by 10.90.72.10 with SMTP id u10mr1672466aga.1178809391140; Thu, 10 May 2007 08:03:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.67.64.20 with HTTP; Thu, 10 May 2007 08:03:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <45be5cd40705100803tda68d6ej3f40d83c22bff78c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 11:03:10 -0400 From: "Bob Wyman" To: "Eric Scheid" Subject: Re: atom:category@scheme Cc: "Atom Syntax" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_121446_7407754.1178809390751" References: <45be5cd40705091700g7a8d1d35y5a0704d644058590@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 66e7ba471e919c66 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 ------=_Part_121446_7407754.1178809390751 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 5/10/07, Eric Scheid wrote: > in XTM and others, the PSI isn't a sole attribute, but instead a given > category could have multiple PSI, and hopefully one or two in common > with the PSIs that you are using in your schema. Eric is, of course, correct. An arbitrarily large, but hopefully small, number of subject indicators can be associated with a single entry in an ontology. In such a case, each of the subject indicators *should* be considered by the creator of the category element to be semantically equivelant. Thus, one might find the following: What that says is that the concept or thing which is categorized as " Communication.Publication.Book" in bobs_ontology is referred to by humans as "Book" and is the same thing which is identified by the listed German and English Wikipedia URIs. If, in some other schema, (such as "Great Inventions") someone else was to create an entry that linked to either of the two Published Subject Indicator URIs, we would be able to infer transitive similarity between the term for a specific "Great Invention" and the term "Communication.Publication.Book" in bobs_ontology. In this way, of course, we can support cross-ontology reasoning, translation between languages, etc. In a system that doesn't support PSIs or a similar concept, there is really no way to reason about the meaning of any term unless you have intimate knowledge of the schema that defines it. One might be able to establish precise equivelances between terms in a small number of "popular" ontologies, however, that is a very expensive process which requires a great deal of communication overhead and continued maintenance as terms are added or modified. It is better, I think, to let understanding emerge from an analysis of the encoding of the data -- even though that understanding might be a bit fuzzy. bob wyman ------=_Part_121446_7407754.1178809390751 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 5/10/07, Eric Scheid <eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au> wrote:
> in XTM and others, the PSI isn't a sole attribute, but instead a given
> category could have multiple PSI, and hopefully one or two in common
> with the PSIs that you are using in your schema.

Eric is, of course, correct. An arbitrarily large, but hopefully small, number of subject indicators can be associated with a single entry in an ontology. In such a case, each of the subject indicators *should* be considered by the creator of the category element to be semantically equivelant. Thus, one might find the following:

<atom:category scheme="..bobs_ontology"
                        term="Communication.Publication.Book"
                        label="Book">
  <atom:link rel="psi" href=" http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buch"/>
  <atom:link rel="psi" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book "/>
</atom:category>

What that says is that the concept or thing which is categorized as "Communication.Publication.Book" in bobs_ontology is referred to by humans as "Book" and is the same thing which is identified by the listed German and English Wikipedia URIs. If, in some other schema, (such as "Great Inventions") someone else was to create an entry that linked to either of the two Published Subject Indicator URIs, we would be able to infer transitive similarity between the term for a specific "Great Invention" and the term " Communication.Publication.Book" in bobs_ontology. In this way, of course, we can support cross-ontology reasoning, translation between languages, etc.

In a system that doesn't support PSIs or a similar concept, there is really no way to reason about the meaning of any term unless you have intimate knowledge of the schema that defines it. One might be able to establish precise equivelances between terms in a small number of "popular" ontologies, however, that is a very expensive process which requires a great deal of communication overhead and continued maintenance as terms are added or modified. It is better, I think, to let understanding emerge from an analysis of the encoding of the data -- even though that understanding might be a bit fuzzy.

bob wyman

------=_Part_121446_7407754.1178809390751-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu May 10 23:07:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmLTO-0002BP-95 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 23:07:14 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmLTL-0000si-SW for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 23:07:14 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4B2lh7c008139 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 10 May 2007 19:47:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4B2lhXa008136; Thu, 10 May 2007 19:47:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [216.86.168.178]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4B2lLjv008009 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 10 May 2007 19:47:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [216.145.54.158]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B09D651939; Thu, 10 May 2007 22:47:19 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <595395.14392.qm@web33215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <595395.14392.qm@web33215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <52F5EB38-8A89-4F53-9974-BC1483685C8F@mnot.net> Cc: atom-syntax Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-09.txt Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 12:47:17 +1000 To: Rogers Cadenhead X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Thanks, Roger. After looking over the links that Randy and others kindly forwarded, consulting with the AD, and hearing nothing from Dave, it looks like we'll go with this link. The citation will look like this; > [RSS2] Winer, D., "RSS 2.0 Specification", > 2005, rss-specification>. On 29/04/2007, at 1:37 PM, Rogers Cadenhead wrote: > > Regarding the question asked here about the RSS 2.0 > specification, the position of the RSS Advisory Board > is that people ought to use the following permanent > URL when linking to the current version of the spec: > > http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification > > The board has published the spec since 2003. Dave > Winer resigned from the board in 2004. > > Rogers Cadenhead, > RSS Advisory Board chairman > -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun May 13 08:52:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HnDYv-0007Ru-Td for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 13 May 2007 08:52:33 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HnDYt-00034T-29 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 13 May 2007 08:52:33 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4DCT1Z2094375 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 13 May 2007 05:29:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4DCT1Gi094374; Sun, 13 May 2007 05:29:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc3-s36.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc3-s36.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.236]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4DCT0Sl094368 for ; Sun, 13 May 2007 05:29:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from peaceable_whale@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.133.16]) by bay0-omc3-s36.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Sun, 13 May 2007 05:29:00 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 13 May 2007 05:29:00 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 61.238.43.155 by BAY128-DAV6.phx.gbl with DAV; Sun, 13 May 2007 12:28:35 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [61.238.43.155] X-Originating-Email: [peaceable_whale@hotmail.com] X-Sender: peaceable_whale@hotmail.com From: "Franklin Tse" To: "James M Snell" Cc: "atom-syntax" Subject: Fw: Atom bidi attribute, empty string value Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 20:28:29 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail desktop 8.0.1226 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V8.0.1226 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 May 2007 12:29:00.0149 (UTC) FILETIME=[48A18A50:01C7955A] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id l4DCT0Sl094369 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 The following message is sent by Sammy... James, would you explain it? Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sammy" To: "Franklin Tse" Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 20:06 Subject: RE: Atom bidi attribute, empty string value I need to understand something please, why isn't the attribute dir preceded with a namespace prefix? Example: .. Regards, Sammy From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun May 13 13:05:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HnHVG-0004KR-Js for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 13 May 2007 13:05:02 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HnHVF-00049S-73 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 13 May 2007 13:05:02 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4DGluXA046438 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 13 May 2007 09:47:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4DGlu4l046437; Sun, 13 May 2007 09:47:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.176]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4DGltat046420 for ; Sun, 13 May 2007 09:47:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id f31so1210081pyh for ; Sun, 13 May 2007 09:47:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=mE2HCQqfDMlnFLU8/KP7Vbk6iP00vt1LzLSp/7HVkkCB0GQz629LCYTT7o00tSF2AB7KeYXizDGBZC1clrTfQLSiWYZ5plOpkr5ehYqUH9diQRe60plSGa2uJbx8cgqwJ5OnWggSReuJVBoX0L4CQky6d3X2IY1uaGDtVjiZSw0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=sEgwXaUzp6RL9KlGA6ePaM8Dv0WFGUWZmC2j5Ycl+tYMvnOJxpNBkB81cRVdzj1nq851JYaYpS9oETPoL6pV5oOoHrfb8hOiGIt0wGafsD7QuLydBntQjgQ9XAKDK5oVNrXYFDEZ2weg54yuWQ45y5GWiKHjMsiVmRE0v5hew64= Received: by 10.35.50.5 with SMTP id c5mr9301726pyk.1179074874982; Sun, 13 May 2007 09:47:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ( [67.181.218.96]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id f77sm26698646pyh.2007.05.13.09.47.53; Sun, 13 May 2007 09:47:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <46474137.8020001@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 09:47:51 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070326) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Franklin Tse CC: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Fw: Atom bidi attribute, empty string value References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Rather than create a new xml namespace, the bidi spec adds the dir attribute to the Atom namespace and adds it to the atomCommonAttributes construct. Basically, the spec plugs what I think is a hole in the RFC4287 spec. - James Franklin Tse wrote: > The following message is sent by Sammy... > > James, would you explain it? > > Franklin > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sammy" > To: "Franklin Tse" > Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 20:06 > Subject: RE: Atom bidi attribute, empty string value > > I need to understand something please, why isn't the attribute dir preceded with a namespace prefix? > > Example: > > > .. > > Regards, > Sammy > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun May 13 15:26:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HnJhq-0002Mj-00 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 13 May 2007 15:26:10 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HnJho-0005mj-Cp for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 13 May 2007 15:26:09 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4DJ3mea091354 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 13 May 2007 12:03:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4DJ3mv4091353; Sun, 13 May 2007 12:03:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id l4DJ3keC091328 for ; Sun, 13 May 2007 12:03:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 13 May 2007 19:03:41 -0000 Received: from static-87-79-236-202.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [87.79.236.202] by mail.gmx.net (mp032) with SMTP; 13 May 2007 21:03:41 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX18a+k4QEFIapl+SzANYnVh9/ErybG1izNSjDxliB/ u8VY5BrhPJPqVW Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 21:03:39 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Fw: Atom bidi attribute, empty string value Message-ID: <20070513190339.GE5095@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax References: <46474137.8020001@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <46474137.8020001@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad * James M Snell [2007-05-13 19:05]: > Rather than create a new xml namespace, the bidi spec adds the > dir attribute to the Atom namespace Attributes never inherit the namespace from any other part of the infoset, so attributes written without a prefix are always in the null namespace. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sun May 13 17:14:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HnLOm-00038r-Ab for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 13 May 2007 17:14:36 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HnLOk-0005gW-VB for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 13 May 2007 17:14:36 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4DKqn4L025702 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 13 May 2007 13:52:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4DKqnca025701; Sun, 13 May 2007 13:52:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.182]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4DKqmqS025685 for ; Sun, 13 May 2007 13:52:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id f31so1241852pyh for ; Sun, 13 May 2007 13:52:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=q5y7rkTll7+M36LmU/3/Qfrzy6KDu/1Tie6fuAuodaxqdYgkV6zmZig1izccgKlfrnvrQ3YeMaJrVtm1zvIoVROmzVl1Ym6FqizueQEV637HRZ8K+bL7Ohcih6goYY1X3nDr58JOa9gvgOPuQrLYphdow/4xyc4DCYNlK4uCCc4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=mKgKDe79RfDh5XvHZYPbg6uPAFX9SPuDJkQ0Z6c3o9AZ+USHn6hZ9B1WK2/qZ2vZEnMee4I04vc5wzHlzUSZ00MlXSpQibPlRibaVIJcpxdahy6Qq49vlk+/5APwcEpn8iJFBIjT3OqttM/1nS2M5pvP4DaPAyl5j9T/qJuG5cE= Received: by 10.35.99.17 with SMTP id b17mr9624040pym.1179089568100; Sun, 13 May 2007 13:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ( [67.181.218.96]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id n45sm21245286pyh.2007.05.13.13.52.47; Sun, 13 May 2007 13:52:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <46477A9E.5090206@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 13:52:46 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070326) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Fw: Atom bidi attribute, empty string value References: <46474137.8020001@gmail.com> <20070513190339.GE5095@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20070513190339.GE5095@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Well, yeah, sorry for not being concise on that point. The point was more that there really was no need for a new namespace for the attribute. :-) - James A. Pagaltzis wrote: > * James M Snell [2007-05-13 19:05]: >> Rather than create a new xml namespace, the bidi spec adds the >> dir attribute to the Atom namespace > > Attributes never inherit the namespace from any other part of the > infoset, so attributes written without a prefix are always in the > null namespace. > > Regards, From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon May 14 05:11:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HnWax-0001bc-2u for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 14 May 2007 05:11:55 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HnWau-0007Uc-Mr for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 14 May 2007 05:11:55 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4E8ffTO043316 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 14 May 2007 01:41:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4E8fefS043315; Mon, 14 May 2007 01:41:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from picoxs.picostation.net ([81.4.18.174]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4E8fbqU043286 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 01:41:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from Sammy@picostation.net) Received: from picoxs.picostation.net (192.168.111.3) by picoxs.picostation.net (192.168.111.3) for IMCEAEX-_O=PICOSTATION_OU=EXCHANGE+20ADMINISTRATIVE+20GROUP+20+28FYDIBOHF23SPDLT+29_CN=RECIPIENTS_CN=SAMMY@picostation.net with mapi; Mon, 14 May 2007 11:41:36 +0300 From: Sammy To: James M Snell , atom-syntax Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 11:41:33 +0300 Subject: RE: Fw: Atom bidi attribute, empty string value Thread-Topic: Fw: Atom bidi attribute, empty string value Thread-Index: AceVpHUuBzEuJ8tpT2m4yDFoTd1xXgAXvnJQ Message-ID: <1DF5EBB8EA271C489FCD7EF20FBEFBAB137A62F2A2@picoxs.picostation.net> References: <46474137.8020001@gmail.com> <20070513190339.GE5095@klangraum> <46477A9E.5090206@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <46477A9E.5090206@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: AcceptLanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id l4E8feqT043309 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Is that what the undefinedAttribute says in the spec? Because I really don't get what the local:* part in "attribute* -(xml:base | xml:lang | local:*)" means. In other words, if you wanted to stick to the spec, couldn't you have had dirns:dir instead of just dir: ? Regards, Sammy -----Original Message----- From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of James M Snell Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 11:53 PM To: atom-syntax Subject: Re: Fw: Atom bidi attribute, empty string value Well, yeah, sorry for not being concise on that point. The point was more that there really was no need for a new namespace for the attribute. :-) - James A. Pagaltzis wrote: > * James M Snell [2007-05-13 19:05]: >> Rather than create a new xml namespace, the bidi spec adds the >> dir attribute to the Atom namespace > > Attributes never inherit the namespace from any other part of the > infoset, so attributes written without a prefix are always in the > null namespace. > > Regards, From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon May 14 06:17:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HnXcL-0005qE-Jw for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 14 May 2007 06:17:25 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HnXcJ-0007B5-U4 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 14 May 2007 06:17:25 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4E9qwwV057075 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 14 May 2007 02:52:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4E9qw8B057074; Mon, 14 May 2007 02:52:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc3-s20.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc3-s20.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.220]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4E9qvsZ057059 for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 02:52:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from peaceable_whale@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.133.20]) by bay0-omc3-s20.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Mon, 14 May 2007 02:52:57 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 14 May 2007 02:52:57 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 61.238.43.155 by BAY128-DAV10.phx.gbl with DAV; Mon, 14 May 2007 09:52:53 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [61.238.43.155] X-Originating-Email: [peaceable_whale@hotmail.com] X-Sender: peaceable_whale@hotmail.com From: "Franklin Tse" To: "Sammy" Cc: "James M Snell" , "atom-syntax" References: <46474137.8020001@gmail.com> <20070513190339.GE5095@klangraum> <46477A9E.5090206@gmail.com> <1DF5EBB8EA271C489FCD7EF20FBEFBAB137A62F2A2@picoxs.picostation.net> Subject: Re: Fw: Atom bidi attribute, empty string value Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:52:48 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail desktop 8.0.1226 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V8.0.1226 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 May 2007 09:52:57.0061 (UTC) FILETIME=[A6357150:01C7960D] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id l4E9qvsZ057068 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 local: = "" (null namespace) > A. Pagaltzis wrote: >> Attributes never inherit the namespace from any other part of the >> infoset, so attributes written without a prefix are always in the >> null namespace. So, "dir" is valid. What's the problem then? Also, please note the bidi draft is an update to the atomCommonAttributes section of RFC 4287. Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sammy" To: "James M Snell" ; "atom-syntax" Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 16:41 Subject: RE: Fw: Atom bidi attribute, empty string value > > Is that what the undefinedAttribute says in the spec? Because I really don't get what the local:* part in "attribute* -(xml:base | xml:lang | local:*)" means. In other words, if you wanted to stick to the spec, couldn't you have had dirns:dir instead of just dir: ? > > Regards, > Sammy > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of James M Snell > Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 11:53 PM > To: atom-syntax > Subject: Re: Fw: Atom bidi attribute, empty string value > > > Well, yeah, sorry for not being concise on that point. The point was > more that there really was no need for a new namespace for the > attribute. :-) > > - James > > A. Pagaltzis wrote: >> * James M Snell [2007-05-13 19:05]: >>> Rather than create a new xml namespace, the bidi spec adds the >>> dir attribute to the Atom namespace >> >> Attributes never inherit the namespace from any other part of the >> infoset, so attributes written without a prefix are always in the >> null namespace. >> >> Regards, > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon May 14 06:38:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HnXx9-0001wO-Pk for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 14 May 2007 06:38:55 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HnXx8-0003cO-D0 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 14 May 2007 06:38:55 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4EA9hVU061058 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 14 May 2007 03:09:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4EA9hhY061057; Mon, 14 May 2007 03:09:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from picoxs.picostation.net ([81.4.18.174]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4EA9eSu061049 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 03:09:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from Sammy@picostation.net) Received: from picoxs.picostation.net (192.168.111.3) by picoxs.picostation.net (192.168.111.3) for IMCEAEX-_O=PICOSTATION_OU=EXCHANGE+20ADMINISTRATIVE+20GROUP+20+28FYDIBOHF23SPDLT+29_CN=RECIPIENTS_CN=SAMMY@picostation.net with mapi; Mon, 14 May 2007 13:09:39 +0300 From: Sammy To: Franklin Tse CC: James M Snell , atom-syntax Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 13:09:36 +0300 Subject: RE: Fw: Atom bidi attribute, empty string value Thread-Topic: Fw: Atom bidi attribute, empty string value Thread-Index: AceWDaenf0/Chya7RaatTHap8w11hQAAgSog Message-ID: <1DF5EBB8EA271C489FCD7EF20FBEFBAB137A62F2A3@picoxs.picostation.net> References: <46474137.8020001@gmail.com> <20070513190339.GE5095@klangraum> <46477A9E.5090206@gmail.com> <1DF5EBB8EA271C489FCD7EF20FBEFBAB137A62F2A2@picoxs.picostation.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: AcceptLanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id l4EA9gSt061052 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 undefinedAttribute = attribute * - (xml:base | xml:lang | local:*) { text } Doesn't this mean that you CAN'T include NEITHER xml:base NOR xml:lang NOR local:* ? Regards, Sammy -----Original Message----- From: Franklin Tse [mailto:peaceable_whale@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 12:53 PM To: Sammy Cc: James M Snell; atom-syntax Subject: Re: Fw: Atom bidi attribute, empty string value local: = "" (null namespace) > A. Pagaltzis wrote: >> Attributes never inherit the namespace from any other part of the >> infoset, so attributes written without a prefix are always in the >> null namespace. So, "dir" is valid. What's the problem then? Also, please note the bidi draft is an update to the atomCommonAttributes section of RFC 4287. Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sammy" To: "James M Snell" ; "atom-syntax" Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 16:41 Subject: RE: Fw: Atom bidi attribute, empty string value > > Is that what the undefinedAttribute says in the spec? Because I really don't get what the local:* part in "attribute* -(xml:base | xml:lang | local:*)" means. In other words, if you wanted to stick to the spec, couldn't you have had dirns:dir instead of just dir: ? > > Regards, > Sammy > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of James M Snell > Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 11:53 PM > To: atom-syntax > Subject: Re: Fw: Atom bidi attribute, empty string value > > > Well, yeah, sorry for not being concise on that point. The point was > more that there really was no need for a new namespace for the > attribute. :-) > > - James > > A. Pagaltzis wrote: >> * James M Snell [2007-05-13 19:05]: >>> Rather than create a new xml namespace, the bidi spec adds the >>> dir attribute to the Atom namespace >> >> Attributes never inherit the namespace from any other part of the >> infoset, so attributes written without a prefix are always in the >> null namespace. >> >> Regards, > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon May 14 06:53:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HnYBi-0002Rt-Jr for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 14 May 2007 06:53:58 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HnYBg-0007Ly-5a for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 14 May 2007 06:53:58 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4EAVXuB064764 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 14 May 2007 03:31:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4EAVXtY064756; Mon, 14 May 2007 03:31:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc3-s41.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc3-s41.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.241]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4EAVWKF064746 for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 03:31:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from peaceable_whale@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.133.15]) by bay0-omc3-s41.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Mon, 14 May 2007 03:31:32 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 14 May 2007 03:31:32 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 61.238.43.155 by BAY128-DAV5.phx.gbl with DAV; Mon, 14 May 2007 10:31:25 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [61.238.43.155] X-Originating-Email: [peaceable_whale@hotmail.com] X-Sender: peaceable_whale@hotmail.com From: "Franklin Tse" To: "Sammy" Cc: "James M Snell" , "atom-syntax" References: <46474137.8020001@gmail.com> <20070513190339.GE5095@klangraum> <46477A9E.5090206@gmail.com> <1DF5EBB8EA271C489FCD7EF20FBEFBAB137A62F2A2@picoxs.picostation.net> <1DF5EBB8EA271C489FCD7EF20FBEFBAB137A62F2A3@picoxs.picostation.net> Subject: Re: Fw: Atom bidi attribute, empty string value Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 18:31:20 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail desktop 8.0.1226 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V8.0.1226 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 May 2007 10:31:32.0179 (UTC) FILETIME=[0A206A30:01C79613] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id l4EAVXKF064749 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c3a18ef96977fc9bcc21a621cbf1174b No, the RELAX NG Compact Schema in RFC 4287 is informative (non-normative). The bidi draft updates atomCommonAttributes with: atomCommonAttributes = attribute xml:base { atomUri }?, attribute xml:lang { atomLanguageTag }?, attribute dir { "ltr" | "rtl" | "" }?, undefinedAttribute* Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sammy" To: "Franklin Tse" Cc: "James M Snell" ; "atom-syntax" Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 18:09 Subject: RE: Fw: Atom bidi attribute, empty string value undefinedAttribute = attribute * - (xml:base | xml:lang | local:*) { text } Doesn't this mean that you CAN'T include NEITHER xml:base NOR xml:lang NOR local:* ? Regards, Sammy -----Original Message----- From: Franklin Tse [mailto:peaceable_whale@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 12:53 PM To: Sammy Cc: James M Snell; atom-syntax Subject: Re: Fw: Atom bidi attribute, empty string value local: = "" (null namespace) > A. Pagaltzis wrote: >> Attributes never inherit the namespace from any other part of the >> infoset, so attributes written without a prefix are always in the >> null namespace. So, "dir" is valid. What's the problem then? Also, please note the bidi draft is an update to the atomCommonAttributes section of RFC 4287. Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sammy" To: "James M Snell" ; "atom-syntax" Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 16:41 Subject: RE: Fw: Atom bidi attribute, empty string value > > Is that what the undefinedAttribute says in the spec? Because I really don't get what the local:* part in "attribute* -(xml:base | xml:lang | local:*)" means. In other words, if you wanted to stick to the spec, couldn't you have had dirns:dir instead of just dir: ? > > Regards, > Sammy > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of James M Snell > Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 11:53 PM > To: atom-syntax > Subject: Re: Fw: Atom bidi attribute, empty string value > > > Well, yeah, sorry for not being concise on that point. The point was > more that there really was no need for a new namespace for the > attribute. :-) > > - James > > A. Pagaltzis wrote: >> * James M Snell [2007-05-13 19:05]: >>> Rather than create a new xml namespace, the bidi spec adds the >>> dir attribute to the Atom namespace >> >> Attributes never inherit the namespace from any other part of the >> infoset, so attributes written without a prefix are always in the >> null namespace. >> >> Regards, > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 16 10:12:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoKFA-0005VW-4v for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2007 10:12:44 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoKF7-0006uB-A1 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2007 10:12:44 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4GDhwRT028127 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 16 May 2007 06:43:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4GDhwJ4028126; Wed, 16 May 2007 06:43:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vanadium.sabren.com (vanadium.sabren.com [67.19.173.84]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4GDhvCG028110 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 16 May 2007 06:43:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.1.102] (cpe-066-057-030-044.nc.res.rr.com [66.57.30.44]) (authenticated bits=0) by vanadium.sabren.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4GDhpWW015791; Wed, 16 May 2007 09:43:54 -0400 Message-ID: <464B0A97.8040407@intertwingly.net> Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 09:43:51 -0400 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (X11/20070403) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham CC: atom-syntax Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-09.txt References: <595395.14392.qm@web33215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <52F5EB38-8A89-4F53-9974-BC1483685C8F@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <52F5EB38-8A89-4F53-9974-BC1483685C8F@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Mark Nottingham wrote: > > Thanks, Roger. After looking over the links that Randy and others kindly > forwarded, consulting with the AD, and hearing nothing from Dave, it > looks like we'll go with this link. Did you check Dave's weblog? He's recently restored, and is actively promoting, an alternate link: http://www.scripting.com/stories/2007/04/30/wikipediaEditing.html These dueling versions of the RSS 2.0 specification differ in minor details (e.g., range of skipHours), major features (permissability namespaced attributes on existing RSS elements), and roadmap. - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 16 11:11:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoLAN-0004OJ-2M for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2007 11:11:51 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoLAL-0004Ct-Hy for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2007 11:11:51 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4GEp54m044701 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 16 May 2007 07:51:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4GEp5a9044700; Wed, 16 May 2007 07:51:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id l4GEp32i044692 for ; Wed, 16 May 2007 07:51:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 16 May 2007 14:51:00 -0000 Received: from static-87-79-236-202.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [87.79.236.202] by mail.gmx.net (mp032) with SMTP; 16 May 2007 16:51:00 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX193oH4PQ3V3XG7vYdO2matWNs6ig4TRJkvauptjx9 ireou4StY58TP8 Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 16:50:59 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-09.txt Message-ID: <20070516145059.GA8661@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax References: <595395.14392.qm@web33215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <52F5EB38-8A89-4F53-9974-BC1483685C8F@mnot.net> <464B0A97.8040407@intertwingly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <464B0A97.8040407@intertwingly.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a * Sam Ruby [2007-05-16 16:10]: > Mark Nottingham wrote: > >Thanks, Roger. After looking over the links that Randy and > >others kindly forwarded, consulting with the AD, and hearing > >nothing from Dave, it looks like we'll go with this link. > > Did you check Dave's weblog? He's recently restored, and is > actively promoting, an alternate link: > > http://www.scripting.com/stories/2007/04/30/wikipediaEditing.html > > These dueling versions of the RSS 2.0 specification differ in > minor details (e.g., range of skipHours), major features > (permissability namespaced attributes on existing RSS > elements), and roadmap. So evidence confirms experience anew: RSS always has involved politics and always will. I propose that this spec stay out of it. To me it does not seem reasonable to take a political stand on behalf of the reader. So if conceivable, include both links (with a caveat lector if necessary). Is that a possibility? Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 16 11:55:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoLqr-0007Dq-8V for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2007 11:55:45 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoLqp-0006oI-PG for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2007 11:55:45 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4GFbFda054772 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 16 May 2007 08:37:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4GFbFof054771; Wed, 16 May 2007 08:37:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.241]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4GFbETb054764 for ; Wed, 16 May 2007 08:37:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c31so47753ana for ; Wed, 16 May 2007 08:37:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=C2of4CmoLcb/E9D9X9fjS5KHXQMIQ1ujIaLMWyvQA92hlXZ/jGLEyARABzVp1OZUOOnSTPyTlfLnyEbUAzH6VMfOZTrP2RxEWgYxm75i47/C0YZiAgeBDOb74o6100uPGCKA2WP8kl3Hg/Mhlg2P2J4KtLqUzL+7WOEI+AefTkU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=BHw6vZvRMmqR8gJTbyAz8X5RoDBMNkAf6Ey7OiyEWZloDrSrakCdb0ml57E/ElBdn6914IolgfRGMlbJkmqrlAI+SwzhSqM7hh2F1q3k3M45fzkr6hED9MTtzm8emwl6L9CS8qFi75D7fBIv1DoUk9dpWIsYocMjh4RHNBEArI8= Received: by 10.100.32.1 with SMTP id f1mr6257670anf.1179329830664; Wed, 16 May 2007 08:37:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.107? ( [67.181.218.96]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id 6sm2576988wrh.2007.05.16.08.37.08; Wed, 16 May 2007 08:37:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <464B2523.6090005@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 08:37:07 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070326) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-09.txt References: <595395.14392.qm@web33215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <52F5EB38-8A89-4F53-9974-BC1483685C8F@mnot.net> <464B0A97.8040407@intertwingly.net> <20070516145059.GA8661@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20070516145059.GA8661@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Nothing new and nothing surprising. I'd be happier with removing all references to RSS in the document. It's a simple matter to write up a few blog posts describing the use of the spec with RSS. - James A. Pagaltzis wrote: > * Sam Ruby [2007-05-16 16:10]: >> Mark Nottingham wrote: >>> Thanks, Roger. After looking over the links that Randy and >>> others kindly forwarded, consulting with the AD, and hearing >>> nothing from Dave, it looks like we'll go with this link. >> Did you check Dave's weblog? He's recently restored, and is >> actively promoting, an alternate link: >> >> http://www.scripting.com/stories/2007/04/30/wikipediaEditing.html >> >> These dueling versions of the RSS 2.0 specification differ in >> minor details (e.g., range of skipHours), major features >> (permissability namespaced attributes on existing RSS >> elements), and roadmap. > > So evidence confirms experience anew: RSS always has involved > politics and always will. > > I propose that this spec stay out of it. To me it does not seem > reasonable to take a political stand on behalf of the reader. > > So if conceivable, include both links (with a caveat lector if > necessary). Is that a possibility? > > Regards, From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 16 12:31:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoMPS-0008Hm-Og for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2007 12:31:30 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoMPR-0001vR-C8 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2007 12:31:30 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4GG4Z0h060782 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 16 May 2007 09:04:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4GG4Z2f060781; Wed, 16 May 2007 09:04:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [10.20.30.104] (dsl-63-249-108-169.cruzio.com [63.249.108.169]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4GG4QWR060719 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 16 May 2007 09:04:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20070516145059.GA8661@klangraum> References: <595395.14392.qm@web33215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <52F5EB38-8A89-4F53-9974-BC1483685C8F@mnot.net> <464B0A97.8040407@intertwingly.net> <20070516145059.GA8661@klangraum> Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 09:04:21 -0700 To: "A. Pagaltzis" , atom-syntax From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-09.txt Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a At 4:50 PM +0200 5/16/07, A. Pagaltzis wrote: >* Sam Ruby [2007-05-16 16:10]: >> Mark Nottingham wrote: >> >Thanks, Roger. After looking over the links that Randy and >> >others kindly forwarded, consulting with the AD, and hearing >> >nothing from Dave, it looks like we'll go with this link. >> >> Did you check Dave's weblog? He's recently restored, and is >> actively promoting, an alternate link: >> >> http://www.scripting.com/stories/2007/04/30/wikipediaEditing.html >> >> These dueling versions of the RSS 2.0 specification differ in >> minor details (e.g., range of skipHours), major features >> (permissability namespaced attributes on existing RSS >> elements), and roadmap. > >So evidence confirms experience anew: RSS always has involved >politics and always will. > >I propose that this spec stay out of it. To me it does not seem >reasonable to take a political stand on behalf of the reader. > >So if conceivable, include both links (with a caveat lector if >necessary). Is that a possibility? Yes, and that is a very good suggestion. Let the reader decide which they want to believe. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 16 13:02:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoMtN-0004NC-Oo for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2007 13:02:25 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoMtL-0002Bx-NJ for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2007 13:02:25 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4GGenNd071154 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 16 May 2007 09:40:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4GGenVj071153; Wed, 16 May 2007 09:40:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc3-s30.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc3-s30.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.230]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4GGemOW071147 for ; Wed, 16 May 2007 09:40:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.152.14]) by bay0-omc3-s30.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Wed, 16 May 2007 09:40:47 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 16 May 2007 09:40:47 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.178.204.62 by BAY141-DAV4.phx.gbl with DAV; Wed, 16 May 2007 16:40:43 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.178.204.62] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "atom-syntax" References: <595395.14392.qm@web33215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <52F5EB38-8A89-4F53-9974-BC1483685C8F@mnot.net> <464B0A97.8040407@intertwingly.net> Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-09.txt Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 17:40:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 May 2007 16:40:47.0837 (UTC) FILETIME=[F4C108D0:01C797D8] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Sam Ruby wrote: > These dueling versions of the RSS 2.0 specification differ They look the same to me. Can you provide some links and/or quotes? > in minor details (e.g., range of skipHours), "An XML element that contains up to 24 sub-elements whose value is a number between 0 and 23, representing a time in GMT" http://www.rssboard.org/skip-hours-days#skiphours http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/rss/skipHoursDays.html#skiphours > major features (permissability namespaced attributes on existing RSS > elements), "A RSS feed may contain elements not described on this page, only if those elements are defined in a namespace." http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification#extendingRss http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/rss/rss.html#extendingRss > and roadmap. "the RSS spec is, for all practical purposes, frozen at version 2.0.1. We anticipate possible 2.0.2 or 2.0.3 versions, etc. only for the purpose of clarifying the specification" http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification#roadmap http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/rss/rss.html#roadmap Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 16 13:31:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoNLG-0006PB-3d for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2007 13:31:14 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoNLE-0004Jk-My for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2007 13:31:14 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4GH5ipT076937 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 16 May 2007 10:05:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4GH5iPX076936; Wed, 16 May 2007 10:05:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4GH5gJF076922; Wed, 16 May 2007 10:05:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) Received: from fe-amer-03.sun.com ([192.18.108.177]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4GH5gbb012487; Wed, 16 May 2007 17:05:42 GMT Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JI500K017RLIU00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Tim.Bray@Sun.COM) ; Wed, 16 May 2007 11:05:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.57] (fatwire-35-165.uniserve.ca [204.174.35.214]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JI5006V88TGN610@mail-amer.sun.com>; Wed, 16 May 2007 11:05:41 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 10:05:08 -0700 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-09.txt In-reply-to: To: Paul Hoffman Cc: "A. Pagaltzis" , atom-syntax Message-id: <03D397DC-513E-4F90-92B2-87038051C04C@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <595395.14392.qm@web33215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <52F5EB38-8A89-4F53-9974-BC1483685C8F@mnot.net> <464B0A97.8040407@intertwingly.net> <20070516145059.GA8661@klangraum> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad On May 16, 2007, at 9:04 AM, Paul Hoffman wrote: >> So if conceivable, include both links (with a caveat lector if >> necessary). Is that a possibility? > > Yes, and that is a very good suggestion. Let the reader decide > which they want to believe. The IESG's gonna *love* that. -Tim > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 16 14:33:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoOJn-0007Ti-UK for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2007 14:33:47 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoOJm-0005Xz-Hj for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2007 14:33:47 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4GI8pO2095795 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 16 May 2007 11:08:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4GI8pnt095794; Wed, 16 May 2007 11:08:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vanadium.sabren.com (vanadium.sabren.com [67.19.173.84]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4GI8oS3095785 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 16 May 2007 11:08:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.1.102] (cpe-066-057-030-044.nc.res.rr.com [66.57.30.44]) (authenticated bits=0) by vanadium.sabren.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4GI8jAV007780; Wed, 16 May 2007 14:08:48 -0400 Message-ID: <464B48AD.3060307@intertwingly.net> Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 14:08:45 -0400 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (X11/20070403) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Holderness CC: atom-syntax Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-09.txt References: <595395.14392.qm@web33215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <52F5EB38-8A89-4F53-9974-BC1483685C8F@mnot.net> <464B0A97.8040407@intertwingly.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 James Holderness wrote: > > Sam Ruby wrote: >> These dueling versions of the RSS 2.0 specification differ > > They look the same to me. Can you provide some links and/or quotes? My apologies. My terminology was not precise. This is a stable link: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/rss/rss.html By stable, I mean that it is the stated intent of the author and the hosting organization that this document will not change. By contrast, this is not a stable link: http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification "The current version of the RSS spec will always be available at this link" My read (tell me if you differ) that is it the explicit intention of the author and hosting organization to revise that document; and in particular has been drafting a significant revision in public: http://www.rssboard.org/rss-draft-1 "If adopted, this will become version 2.0.9 of the specification." In general, I believe that the IETF requires stable links. - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 16 16:13:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoPsF-0004rF-Mc for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2007 16:13:27 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoPsD-0005Va-96 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2007 16:13:27 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4GJptSr023498 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 16 May 2007 12:51:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4GJptnK023497; Wed, 16 May 2007 12:51:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from web33203.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web33203.mail.mud.yahoo.com [209.191.69.151]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id l4GJprcW023490 for ; Wed, 16 May 2007 12:51:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rcade@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 64784 invoked by uid 60001); 16 May 2007 19:51:53 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=j+bhVf3vaWC2H+r0gy2ohwNrIk2Q/duwmKwg6ofZ6m8BLK3HUYXhsBhnKKEETnC+ZpqZh3bQz0Qyku7wRnC9Z1IBcT+LdD8d1T5uuxeKOQK0j38w51VkyPRViryezQ24Ias1SCdmrsnhsm4Q+yyXvc/SP3xYOebg8RclMwMyi7A=; X-YMail-OSG: 8XrUin8VM1lK81kr2K98grcOhfgjRU.7igs_c2ODgMb64Muk.zzdZHtggMqzgRDpOQ-- Received: from [68.17.246.179] by web33203.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 16 May 2007 12:51:53 PDT Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 12:51:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Rogers Cadenhead Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-09.txt To: atom-syntax@imc.org In-Reply-To: <464B48AD.3060307@intertwingly.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <237754.56990.qm@web33203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 There's a stable link to the current RSS 2.0 specification here: http://www.rssboard.org/rss-2-0-8 This will not change at any point in the future. The following link will always point to the most-current version: http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification, --- Sam Ruby wrote: > My read (tell me if you differ) that is it the > explicit intention of the author and hosting > organization to revise that document; and in > particular has been drafting a significant revision > in public: > http://www.rssboard.org/rss-draft-1 The draft spec is a proposal that has not been approved by the RSS Advisory Board. As it states at the top of that page, "Because this document has not been adopted by the board, current implementers should continue to rely on version 2.0.8." The board has never voted to express an intent to replace the existing spec. The last time a vote was called on the draft spec on RSS-Board (our mailing list), the motion died for lack of a second. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 16 16:38:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoQGF-0001vX-SW for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2007 16:38:15 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoQGE-0004Oa-Hb for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2007 16:38:15 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4GKIFGG028814 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 16 May 2007 13:18:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4GKIFOe028813; Wed, 16 May 2007 13:18:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [10.20.30.104] (adsl-66-125-125-65.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [66.125.125.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4GKIEJ0028806 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 16 May 2007 13:18:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <464B48AD.3060307@intertwingly.net> References: <595395.14392.qm@web33215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <52F5EB38-8A89-4F53-9974-BC1483685C8F@mnot.net> <464B0A97.8040407@intertwingly.net> <464B48AD.3060307@intertwingly.net> Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 13:18:09 -0700 To: atom-syntax From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-09.txt Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de At 2:08 PM -0400 5/16/07, Sam Ruby wrote: >In general, I believe that the IETF requires stable links. s/requires/strongly prefers/ No link is guaranteed stable, but some (such as ones that are hosted by people who say they intend to change them in the future) are known to be worse. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 16 17:30:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoR4m-0006Qx-KK for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2007 17:30:28 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoR4l-0003oL-8a for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2007 17:30:28 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4GL4Xqc037538 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 16 May 2007 14:04:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4GL4XZe037537; Wed, 16 May 2007 14:04:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.227]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4GL4WI4037522 for ; Wed, 16 May 2007 14:04:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 50so352278wri for ; Wed, 16 May 2007 14:04:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=uOULHMWox4Psi+PvIeDVtWhC3OckuEml7Ir/V1jgosSpQmC6KbPSk3qFBLxq7OxS1hSJ62wxfQt+co7VoST4NdZ9G3a4U/jO7p6H2Xr59BL+LTNLKgbh+I0s/G1MUl91mYZ5JAmXNbI5jGtmXmpHImhFUStzg58tT5fpUxwN/a0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=V8hF+ttBdPdXxGIH2Ddqgeuk2iyqd4LQFQcYjho6Rgh8b4hw1imhgcCOup/IdrRoFjhjV4mIYjgcvHZ2+9LMC3tZxX7BGzdFwDsifodKnX+pQ1fqIsOGSHX3psXuO5NGHTSinn28etqjIrnrPp/X5+qkpO8kjp8QZ+NBPpWY6QM= Received: by 10.100.137.18 with SMTP id k18mr6786031and.1179349472018; Wed, 16 May 2007 14:04:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.107? ( [67.181.218.96]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id q30sm3034276wrq.2007.05.16.14.04.30; Wed, 16 May 2007 14:04:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <464B71DD.6060907@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 14:04:29 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070326) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Hoffman CC: atom-syntax Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-09.txt References: <595395.14392.qm@web33215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <52F5EB38-8A89-4F53-9974-BC1483685C8F@mnot.net> <464B0A97.8040407@intertwingly.net> <464B48AD.3060307@intertwingly.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 In this case the link is not only possibly unstable, it's also under dispute. I think it would be best for everyone involved to simply drop the reference from the document and remove any mention of RSS. - James Paul Hoffman wrote: > > At 2:08 PM -0400 5/16/07, Sam Ruby wrote: >> In general, I believe that the IETF requires stable links. > > s/requires/strongly prefers/ > > No link is guaranteed stable, but some (such as ones that are hosted by > people who say they intend to change them in the future) are known to be > worse. > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 16 19:47:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoTDn-00049U-Rb for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2007 19:47:55 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoTDm-0003Vs-GB for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2007 19:47:55 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4GNMM16078214 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 16 May 2007 16:22:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4GNMMHp078213; Wed, 16 May 2007 16:22:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chilco.textdrive.com (chilco.textdrive.com [207.7.108.242]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4GNMLTE078207 for ; Wed, 16 May 2007 16:22:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: from [192.168.2.180] (83-70-220-123.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net [83.70.220.123]) by chilco.textdrive.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CA75DDBD8 for ; Wed, 16 May 2007 23:22:20 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <464B9224.9000501@dehora.net> Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 00:22:12 +0100 From: Bill de hOra User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (X11/20070403) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-09.txt References: <595395.14392.qm@web33215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <52F5EB38-8A89-4F53-9974-BC1483685C8F@mnot.net> <464B0A97.8040407@intertwingly.net> <20070516145059.GA8661@klangraum> <464B2523.6090005@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <464B2523.6090005@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de James M Snell wrote: > I'd be happier with removing all > references to RSS in the document. Me too. A few years out, it won't matter. cheers Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 16 20:23:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoTm9-0001h5-7u for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2007 20:23:25 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoTm7-0008Oo-RJ for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2007 20:23:25 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4H02wsV092337 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 16 May 2007 17:02:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4H02wFB092336; Wed, 16 May 2007 17:02:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vanadium.sabren.com (vanadium.sabren.com [67.19.173.84]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4H02vmP092323 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 16 May 2007 17:02:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.1.102] (cpe-066-057-030-044.nc.res.rr.com [66.57.30.44]) (authenticated bits=0) by vanadium.sabren.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4H02iN4020770; Wed, 16 May 2007 20:02:57 -0400 Message-ID: <464B9BA4.5010306@intertwingly.net> Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 20:02:44 -0400 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (X11/20070403) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Hoffman CC: atom-syntax Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-09.txt References: <595395.14392.qm@web33215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <52F5EB38-8A89-4F53-9974-BC1483685C8F@mnot.net> <464B0A97.8040407@intertwingly.net> <464B48AD.3060307@intertwingly.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Paul Hoffman wrote: > > At 2:08 PM -0400 5/16/07, Sam Ruby wrote: >> In general, I believe that the IETF requires stable links. > > s/requires/strongly prefers/ > > No link is guaranteed stable, but some (such as ones that are hosted by > people who say they intend to change them in the future) are known to be > worse. These following URIs are purported to be stable and equivalent, modulo formatting differences: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/rss/rss.html http://www.rssboard.org/rss-2-0-1-rv-5 - Sam Ruby From www-data@supremecenter41.com Sat May 19 08:04:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HpNg6-0006n8-IA; Sat, 19 May 2007 08:04:54 -0400 Received: from mail.supremecenter41.com ([64.72.112.52] helo=supremecenter41.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HpNg6-0004vc-8a; Sat, 19 May 2007 08:04:54 -0400 Received: from www-data by supremecenter41.com with local (Exim 4.50) id 1HpNWJ-0006nT-QE; Sat, 19 May 2007 14:54:47 +0300 Received: from 62-128-160-142.iwayafrica.com (62-128-160-142.iwayafrica.com [62.128.160.142]) by supremecenter41.com (Horde MIME library) with HTTP; Sat, 19 May 2007 14:54:47 +0300 Message-ID: <20070519145447.yuuxiy8joghes000@supremecenter41.com> Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 14:54:47 +0300 From: PEUGEOT AUTOMOBILES LOTTERY Reply-to: johngreening77@yahoo.co.uk To: undisclosed-recipients:; Subject: PEUGEOT AUTOMOBILES LOTTERY WINNING NOTIFICATION X-HrdMailFrom: davidjohnson@firstcapitalsecurityinvestment.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.0.4) Sender: www-data X-Report-Abuse-To: This header is automaticly added by supremecenter41.com. If you consider this mail as a spam, please send report to spamreport@propersupport.com, including this message with all of its headers! X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: d8ae4fd88fcaf47c1a71c804d04f413d PEUGEOT AUTOMOBILES LOTTERY WINNING NOTIFICATION Peugeot Auto-mobiles headquaters, 19 Ul, Essex , PE9 2YP , London United Kingdom. PEUGEOT ONLINE CAR /CASH AWARD PRIZE NOTIFICATION. This is to inform you that you have been selected for a cash prize of =A3300,000.00 (Three Hundred Thousand Great British Pounds) and a brand new Peugeot 407 Car,From the International online programs held on the 19th of may 2007 in London the United Kingdom . 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From www-data@supremecenter41.com Sat May 19 08:04:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HpNg6-0006n8-IA; Sat, 19 May 2007 08:04:54 -0400 Received: from mail.supremecenter41.com ([64.72.112.52] helo=supremecenter41.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HpNg6-0004vc-8a; Sat, 19 May 2007 08:04:54 -0400 Received: from www-data by supremecenter41.com with local (Exim 4.50) id 1HpNWJ-0006nT-QE; Sat, 19 May 2007 14:54:47 +0300 Received: from 62-128-160-142.iwayafrica.com (62-128-160-142.iwayafrica.com [62.128.160.142]) by supremecenter41.com (Horde MIME library) with HTTP; Sat, 19 May 2007 14:54:47 +0300 Message-ID: <20070519145447.yuuxiy8joghes000@supremecenter41.com> Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 14:54:47 +0300 From: PEUGEOT AUTOMOBILES LOTTERY Reply-to: johngreening77@yahoo.co.uk To: undisclosed-recipients:; Subject: PEUGEOT AUTOMOBILES LOTTERY WINNING NOTIFICATION X-HrdMailFrom: davidjohnson@firstcapitalsecurityinvestment.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.0.4) Sender: www-data X-Report-Abuse-To: This header is automaticly added by supremecenter41.com. If you consider this mail as a spam, please send report to spamreport@propersupport.com, including this message with all of its headers! X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: d8ae4fd88fcaf47c1a71c804d04f413d PEUGEOT AUTOMOBILES LOTTERY WINNING NOTIFICATION Peugeot Auto-mobiles headquaters, 19 Ul, Essex , PE9 2YP , London United Kingdom. PEUGEOT ONLINE CAR /CASH AWARD PRIZE NOTIFICATION. This is to inform you that you have been selected for a cash prize of =A3300,000.00 (Three Hundred Thousand Great British Pounds) and a brand new Peugeot 407 Car,From the International online programs held on the 19th of may 2007 in London the United Kingdom . The selection process was carried out through random selection in our computerized Email selection system (ESS) from a database of over 250,000 email addresses drawn from all the continents of the world The Peugeot Car Promotional Lottery is approved by the British Gaming Board and Also Licensed by the International Association of Gaming Regulators(IAGR). This lottery is the 2nd of its kind and we intend to sensitize the public. To begin the processing of your prize you are to contact the remittance department with the emails address provided below through our accredited Prize Transfer agents as stated below: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Sir John Greening, Peugeot Auto-mobiles headquaters, 19 Ul, Essex , PE9 2YP , London United Kingdom. E-mail:johngreening77@walla.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Contact him with your secret pin code PGA00111234 and your reference number PGA: 12058006/06. You are also advised to provide him with the under listed information as soon as possible: Claims Requirements: 1. Name in full----------------------- 2. Address---------------------------- 3. Sex-------------------------------- 4. Nationality/Religion--------------- 5. Maritual Status-------------------- 6. Age-------------------------------- 7. Next Of Kin------------------------ 8. Occupation------------------------- 9. Phone/Fax-------------------------- 10. Present Country------------------- =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D If you do not contact your claims agent within 7 working days of this notification, your winnings would be revoked. Winners are advised to keep their winning details/information from the public to avoid fraudulent claim (IMPORTANT) pending the transfer / claim by Winner. *Winner under the age of 18 is automatically disqualified.*Staff of the Peugeot Company world wide is not to partake in this Car Promotional Lottery. Congratulations once again! With Best Regards Dominic Gerald Lottery Manager. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From naoki8962@eyou.com Sun May 20 23:31:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HpycJ-000755-CN for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 20 May 2007 23:31:27 -0400 Received: from [58.143.160.61] (helo=SPK09.localdomain) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HpycH-00027r-L8 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 20 May 2007 23:31:27 -0400 Received: by SPK09.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 48) id B425EDAFF9; Mon, 21 May 2007 12:19:26 +0900 (KST) To: atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCQ084NSROJSolUCU1JXMkckp6JC0kPyQkJEckOSQrISklbCVZGyhC?= =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCJWskT0RjJCQkRyQ5JCwzTjxCJEtKeiQxJF4kOSRoGyhCISE=?= From: Resent-Sender: naoki8962@eyou.com Message-ID: <20070521121926.91872@eyou.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-Id: <20070521031926.B425EDAFF9@SPK09.localdomain> Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 12:19:26 +0900 (KST) Resent-From: naoki8962@eyou.com (Apache) X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: b7b9551d71acde901886cc48bfc088a6 **************************************************** $BEv%5%$%H$O(B40$BBe!A(B50$BBe$NFyBN4X78$r5a$a$F$$$k?M:J!&=O=w(B $B$,=8$^$kF|K\:GBg$NITNQ%3%_%e%K%F%#!<%5%$%H$G$9!#(B **************************************************** $B!T$4MxMQ$K4X$7$F$N$4Cm0U!U(B------------------------------- $B-5!!$4MxMQ$OCK=w6&$KITNQ$r4uK>$5$l$kJ}$N$_$H$5$;$FD:$-$^$9!#(B $B-6!!CK=w6&$K$*Aj$NCO0h!&%a!<%k%"%I%l%9!&%Q%9%o!<%I$r@_Dj$7$FD:$-$^$9!#(B $B-6!!$9$k$*Aj%"%I%l%9$,I=<($5$l$F$*$j$^$9$N$G$=$N;~E@$GD>@\$4O"Mm$r(B $B!!!!$7$FD:$$$F$b7k9=$G$9$7!"%5%$%HFb$+$i%a!<%k$K$FO"Mm$rD$7$F2<$5$$!#(B $B!ZCm0U![<+8J(BPR$BFb$KO"Mm@h$NI=<($,L5$$?M:J$5$s$O(B $B!!!!!!!!8r>D$,@.N)$7FyBN4X78Cf$G$9$N$GO"Mm@h$NI=<($,(B $B!!!!!!!!I|3h8e!":FEY8r>D$r$*4j$$CW$7$^$9!#(B ************************************************************** $B!|K\F|!"40A4L5NA$G=O$l$??M:J$HFyBN4X78$r4uK>$5$l$kCK@-$O(B $B!!(Bhttp://cjbjj.com:112/ddd/hito-09/ $B!|K\F|!"40A4L5NA$G2P>H$C$?BN$rK~$?$7$FM_$7$$=w@-$O(B $B!!(Bhttp://cjbjj.com:112/ddd/hito-09/ ************************************************************** $B!zBT9g$o$;$N>l=j$r%j%"%k%?%$%`$G$d$j Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqROu-0002vO-Ma for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2007 06:15:32 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqROt-00067j-6X for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2007 06:15:32 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4M9qGoj076593 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 22 May 2007 02:52:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4M9qGC8076592; Tue, 22 May 2007 02:52:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [216.86.168.178]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4M9qEh2076574 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 02:52:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [216.145.54.7]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9B515191F for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 05:52:12 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <16DD5E1B-B844-483A-B8D1-EB6A639E8B22@mnot.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-10.txt Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 19:52:19 +1000 To: atom-syntax Syntax X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b5d20af10c334b36874c0264b10f59f1 FYI. Diffs at: http://www.mnot.net/drafts/draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history/ draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-10-from-09.diff.html Changes include; - text for example of how archived feeds work - more explanatory abstract - update previously registered link relations to point to this doc - expanded security considerations - removed URI for RSS, as policy discourages use of URIs for references (and it's contentious) - various tweaks and corrections Cheers, Begin forwarded message: > From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org > Date: 22 May 2007 5:50:02 AM > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-10.txt > Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > > > Title : Feed Paging and Archiving > Author(s) : M. Nottingham > Filename : draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-10.txt > Pages : 18 > Date : 2007-5-21 > > This specification defines three types of syndicated Web feeds that > enable publication of entries across one or more feed documents. > This includes "paged" feeds for piecemeal access, "archived" feeds > that allow reconstruction of the feed's contents, and feeds that > are > explicitly "complete". > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nottingham-atompub-feed- > history-10.txt > > To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to > i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of > the message. > You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce > to change your subscription settings. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the > username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After > logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then > "get draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-10.txt". > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > > Send a message to: > mailserv@ietf.org. > In the body type: > "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-10.txt". > > NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split > up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on > how to manipulate these messages. > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the > Internet-Draft. > Content-Type: text/plain > Content-ID: <2007-5-21134723.I-D@ietf.org> > > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From satiko8546@3126.com Tue May 22 07:39:35 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqSiF-00007f-Cw for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2007 07:39:35 -0400 Received: from [58.143.164.124] (helo=SPK12.localdomain) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqSiE-0003Ww-RF for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2007 07:39:35 -0400 Received: by SPK12.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 48) id C2CA5E729C6; Tue, 22 May 2007 20:30:22 +0900 (JST) To: atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCQ084NSROJSolUCU1JXMkckp6JC0kPyQkJEckOSQrISklbCVZGyhC?= =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCJWskT0RjJCQkRyQ5JCwzTjxCJEtKeiQxJF4kOSRoGyhCISE=?= From: Resent-Sender: satiko8546@3126.com Message-ID: <20070522203021.64867@3126.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-Id: <20070522113021.C2CA5E729C6@SPK12.localdomain> Resent-Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 20:30:21 +0900 (JST) Resent-From: satiko8546@3126.com (Apache) X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: a2c12dacc0736f14d6b540e805505a86 $B!&!&!&!E!E!D!D(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,!D!D!E!E!&!&!&(B $BFyBN4X78@lLg%3%_%e%K%F%#!<(B!$B:#$9$0CO85$N%[%F%k$XD>9T3Ne@lMQ!@!!(B $B(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(B $BEv%5%$%H$O(B40$BBe!A(B50$BBe$NFyBN4X78$r5a$a$F$$$k?M:J!&=O=w(B $B$,=8$^$kF|K\:GBg$NFyBN4X78%3%_%e%K%F%#!<%5%$%H$G$9!#(B $B(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(B $B!T$4MxMQ$K4X$7$F$N$4Cm0U!U(B $B-!!!$4MxMQ$OCK=w6&$K(B40$B:P0J>e$NJ}$N$_$H$5$;$FD:$-$^$9!#(B $B-"!!CK=w6&$K$*Aj$NCO0h!&%a!<%k%"%I%l%9!&%Q%9%o!<%I$r(B $B@_Dj$7$FD:$-$^$9!#(B $B-"!!$9$k$*Aj%"%I%l%9$,I=<($5$l$F$*$j$^$9$N$G(B $B$=$N;~E@$GD>@\$4O"Mm$r$7$FD:$$$F$b7k9=$G$9$7!"(B $B%5%$%HFb$+$i%a!<%k$K$FO"Mm$rD$7$F2<$5$$!#(B $B!ZCm0U![<+8J(BPR$BFb$KO"Mm@h$NI=<($,L5$$?M:J!&=O=w$5$s$O(B $B!!!!!!!!8r>D$,@.N)$7FyBN4X78Cf$G$9$N$GO"Mm@h$NI=<($,(B $B!!!!!!!!I|3h8e!":FEY8r>D$r$*4j$$CW$7$^$9!#(B $B(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(B $B!|K\F|!"CO85$N%*%P%5%s$HFyBN4X78$r4uK>$5$l$kCK@-$O(B $B!!(Bhttp://cjbjj.com:112/ddd/40-navi-10-11-12/ $B!|K\F|!"2P>H$C$?BN$rK~$?$7$FM_$7$$%*%P%5%s$O(B $B!!(Bhttp://cjbjj.com:112/ddd/40-navi-10-11-12/ $B(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(B $B!zBT9g$o$;$N>l=j$r%j%"%k%?%$%`$G$d$j Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqT2j-0002mf-50 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2007 08:00:46 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqT2b-00034C-Rk for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2007 08:00:45 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4MBd05m001288 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 22 May 2007 04:39:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4MBd0wq001287; Tue, 22 May 2007 04:39:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc2-s37.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc2-s37.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.173]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4MBcxl5001280 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 04:38:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.152.14]) by bay0-omc2-s37.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Tue, 22 May 2007 04:38:58 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 22 May 2007 04:38:58 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.178.119.165 by BAY141-DAV4.phx.gbl with DAV; Tue, 22 May 2007 11:38:56 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.178.119.165] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "Mark Nottingham" , "atom-syntax Syntax" References: <16DD5E1B-B844-483A-B8D1-EB6A639E8B22@mnot.net> Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-10.txt Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 12:38:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 May 2007 11:38:58.0671 (UTC) FILETIME=[C95417F0:01C79C65] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 > FYI. Diffs at: > http://www.mnot.net/drafts/draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history/ > draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-10-from-09.diff.html Some of the RSS examples are not valid - unescaped markup in description elements. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue May 22 08:38:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqTcx-0004tE-Od for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2007 08:38:11 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqTck-0008T9-3y for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2007 08:38:11 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4MCHTCa013199 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 22 May 2007 05:17:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4MCHTV8013198; Tue, 22 May 2007 05:17:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc3-s31.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc3-s31.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.231]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4MCHS0a013182 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 05:17:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from peaceable_whale@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.133.14]) by bay0-omc3-s31.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Tue, 22 May 2007 05:17:28 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 22 May 2007 05:17:27 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 61.238.43.155 by BAY128-DAV4.phx.gbl with DAV; Tue, 22 May 2007 12:17:25 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [61.238.43.155] X-Originating-Email: [peaceable_whale@hotmail.com] X-Sender: peaceable_whale@hotmail.com From: "Franklin Tse" To: "James Holderness" , "Mark Nottingham" , "atom-syntax Syntax" References: <16DD5E1B-B844-483A-B8D1-EB6A639E8B22@mnot.net> Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-10.txt Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 20:17:23 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail desktop 8.0.1226 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V8.0.1226 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 May 2007 12:17:27.0857 (UTC) FILETIME=[29B5EA10:01C79C6B] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id l4MCHT0a013185 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Also, some and elements do not point to the same URL. This is a bad practice that should not be included in a specification. The element should be removed or a 'isPermaLink="false"' attribute should be added to the element. Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Holderness" To: "Mark Nottingham" ; "atom-syntax Syntax" Sent: Tuesday, 22 May, 2007 19:38 Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-10.txt > >> FYI. Diffs at: >> http://www.mnot.net/drafts/draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history/ >> draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-10-from-09.diff.html > > Some of the RSS examples are not valid - unescaped markup in description > elements. > > Regards > James > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue May 22 09:55:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqUpP-0000PI-MX for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2007 09:55:07 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqUpM-0003c4-8i for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2007 09:55:07 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4MDYMLm034350 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 22 May 2007 06:34:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4MDYMK7034349; Tue, 22 May 2007 06:34:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc1-s36.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc1-s36.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.108]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4MDYKdb034335 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 06:34:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.152.14]) by bay0-omc1-s36.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Tue, 22 May 2007 06:34:20 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 22 May 2007 06:34:20 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.178.119.165 by BAY141-DAV4.phx.gbl with DAV; Tue, 22 May 2007 13:34:16 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.178.119.165] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "atom-syntax Syntax" References: <16DD5E1B-B844-483A-B8D1-EB6A639E8B22@mnot.net> Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-10.txt Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 14:34:15 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 May 2007 13:34:20.0020 (UTC) FILETIME=[E6C62340:01C79C75] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad > Also, some and elements do not point to the same URL. This > is a bad practice that should not be included in a specification. > > The element should be removed or a 'isPermaLink="false"' attribute > should be added to the element. At the very least the urn needs an isPermaLink attribute set to false. Using a urn as a permalink is simply not valid. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 23 00:43:59 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqihb-0003GE-Im for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 00:43:59 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqiha-0002Qf-6C for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 00:43:59 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4N4JE9L085102 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 22 May 2007 21:19:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4N4JEKH085101; Tue, 22 May 2007 21:19:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [216.86.168.178]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4N4JCZR085084 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 21:19:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [216.145.54.7]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFB6E5194C; Wed, 23 May 2007 00:19:09 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: References: <16DD5E1B-B844-483A-B8D1-EB6A639E8B22@mnot.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: "atom-syntax Syntax" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Image-Url: http://www.mnot.net/personal/MarkNottingham.jpg From: Mark Nottingham Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-10.txt Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 14:19:15 +1000 To: James Holderness X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Anything else? On 22/05/2007, at 11:34 PM, James Holderness wrote: > >> Also, some and elements do not point to the same >> URL. This is a bad practice that should not be included in a >> specification. >> >> The element should be removed or a 'isPermaLink="false"' >> attribute should be added to the element. > > At the very least the urn needs an isPermaLink attribute set > to false. Using a urn as a permalink is simply not valid. > > Regards > James > -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 23 02:48:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqkeT-0003zK-8Q for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 02:48:53 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqkeR-0001jO-Lw for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 02:48:53 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4N6Rdhf031412 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 22 May 2007 23:27:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4N6RdAF031411; Tue, 22 May 2007 23:27:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc3-s13.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc3-s13.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.213]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4N6RcSR031404 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 23:27:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.152.15]) by bay0-omc3-s13.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Tue, 22 May 2007 23:27:38 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 22 May 2007 23:27:38 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.178.119.165 by BAY141-DAV5.phx.gbl with DAV; Wed, 23 May 2007 06:27:37 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.178.119.165] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "atom-syntax Syntax" References: <16DD5E1B-B844-483A-B8D1-EB6A639E8B22@mnot.net> Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-10.txt Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 07:27:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 May 2007 06:27:38.0385 (UTC) FILETIME=[756C6810:01C79D03] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Nothing that I noticed error wise but, since you asked, I personally think it would be clearer if you removed all the optional channel elements (language, pubDate, lastBuildDate, docs, generator, managingEditor and webMaster) from the RSS examples and made the message content the same as the Atom examples. At least I would think changing the links might be a good idea (example.org rather than nasa.gov). Not a big deal though - just a suggestion. Regards James > Anything else? > > On 22/05/2007, at 11:34 PM, James Holderness wrote: > >> >>> Also, some and elements do not point to the same URL. >>> This is a bad practice that should not be included in a specification. >>> >>> The element should be removed or a 'isPermaLink="false"' >>> attribute should be added to the element. >> >> At the very least the urn needs an isPermaLink attribute set to >> false. Using a urn as a permalink is simply not valid. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 23 03:13:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hql2F-0002Pp-Ve for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 03:13:27 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hql2E-0006hy-AJ for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 03:13:27 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4N6peoK040720 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 22 May 2007 23:51:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4N6peOX040719; Tue, 22 May 2007 23:51:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc2-s14.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc2-s14.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.150]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4N6pdxc040708 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 23:51:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from peaceable_whale@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.133.18]) by bay0-omc2-s14.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Tue, 22 May 2007 23:51:38 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 22 May 2007 23:51:38 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 61.238.43.155 by BAY128-DAV8.phx.gbl with DAV; Wed, 23 May 2007 06:51:34 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [61.238.43.155] X-Originating-Email: [peaceable_whale@hotmail.com] X-Sender: peaceable_whale@hotmail.com From: "Franklin Tse" To: "James Holderness" Cc: "atom-syntax" References: <16DD5E1B-B844-483A-B8D1-EB6A639E8B22@mnot.net> Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-10.txt Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 14:51:31 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail desktop 8.0.1226 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V8.0.1226 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 May 2007 06:51:38.0717 (UTC) FILETIME=[CFEDA0D0:01C79D06] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id l4N6pdxc040714 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b I think lastBuildDate and managingEditor should not be removed since they are equal to atom:updated and atom:author respectively. Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Holderness" To: "atom-syntax Syntax" Sent: Wednesday, 23 May, 2007 14:27 Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-10.txt > > Nothing that I noticed error wise but, since you asked, I personally think > it would be clearer if you removed all the optional channel elements > (language, pubDate, lastBuildDate, docs, generator, managingEditor and > webMaster) from the RSS examples and made the message content the same as > the Atom examples. At least I would think changing the links might be a good > idea (example.org rather than nasa.gov). > > Not a big deal though - just a suggestion. > > Regards > James > >> Anything else? >> >> On 22/05/2007, at 11:34 PM, James Holderness wrote: >> >>> >>>> Also, some and elements do not point to the same URL. >>>> This is a bad practice that should not be included in a specification. >>>> >>>> The element should be removed or a 'isPermaLink="false"' >>>> attribute should be added to the element. >>> >>> At the very least the urn needs an isPermaLink attribute set to >>> false. Using a urn as a permalink is simply not valid. > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 23 03:59:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqlku-0005du-EC for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 03:59:36 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqlkt-00080F-0t for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 03:59:36 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4N7biXX058657 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 23 May 2007 00:37:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4N7bi41058656; Wed, 23 May 2007 00:37:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc2-s22.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc2-s22.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.158]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4N7bhw2058641 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 00:37:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.152.12]) by bay0-omc2-s22.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Wed, 23 May 2007 00:37:43 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 23 May 2007 00:37:43 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.178.119.165 by BAY141-DAV2.phx.gbl with DAV; Wed, 23 May 2007 07:37:42 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.178.119.165] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: "atom-syntax" References: <16DD5E1B-B844-483A-B8D1-EB6A639E8B22@mnot.net> Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-10.txt Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 08:37:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 May 2007 07:37:43.0286 (UTC) FILETIME=[3FBD6160:01C79D0D] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Franklin Tse wrote: > I think lastBuildDate and managingEditor should not be > removed since they are equal to atom:updated and atom:author > respectively. I considered that, but it seems to me the only reason they are in the Atom examples is because Atom requires those elements - they don't actually add anything illustrative to the example. However, if you really want to make the examples identical element-for-element, then the Atom feeds should all include a subtitle element to match RSS's required channel description. IMHO. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 23 04:43:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqmRK-0001Tr-74 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 04:43:26 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqmRH-00016h-Hm for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 04:43:26 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4N8N8ZI074441 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 23 May 2007 01:23:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4N8N8sE074440; Wed, 23 May 2007 01:23:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc2-s26.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc2-s26.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.162]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4N8N7TN074433 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 01:23:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from peaceable_whale@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.133.22]) by bay0-omc2-s26.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Wed, 23 May 2007 01:23:07 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 23 May 2007 01:23:07 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 61.238.43.155 by BAY128-DAV12.phx.gbl with DAV; Wed, 23 May 2007 08:23:03 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [61.238.43.155] X-Originating-Email: [peaceable_whale@hotmail.com] X-Sender: peaceable_whale@hotmail.com From: "Franklin Tse" To: "James Holderness" Cc: "atom-syntax" References: <16DD5E1B-B844-483A-B8D1-EB6A639E8B22@mnot.net> Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-10.txt Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 16:22:57 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail desktop 8.0.1226 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V8.0.1226 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 May 2007 08:23:07.0350 (UTC) FILETIME=[97688F60:01C79D13] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id l4N8N8TN074434 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d In section 4.2 of the draft, In Atom-formatted archived feeds, two entries are duplicates if they have the same atom:id element. The update time of an entry is determined by its atom:updated element, and likewise the update time of a feed document is determined by its feed-level atom:updated element. In RSS 2, the equivalent of atom:feed/atom:updated is rss/channel/lastBuildDate. I think it is a good practice to always include it. By the way, do publishers need to use an atom:id element in RSS 2 feeds since there is no equivalent in RSS 2? Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Holderness" To: "atom-syntax" Sent: Wednesday, 23 May, 2007 15:37 Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-10.txt > > Franklin Tse wrote: >> I think lastBuildDate and managingEditor should not be >> removed since they are equal to atom:updated and atom:author >> respectively. > > I considered that, but it seems to me the only reason they are in the Atom > examples is because Atom requires those elements - they don't actually add > anything illustrative to the example. However, if you really want to make > the examples identical element-for-element, then the Atom feeds should all > include a subtitle element to match RSS's required channel description. > IMHO. > > Regards > James > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 23 05:06:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqmne-0007NZ-NK for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 05:06:30 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqmnd-00065O-A0 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 05:06:30 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4N8hWfn079855 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 23 May 2007 01:43:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4N8hWoM079854; Wed, 23 May 2007 01:43:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.230]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4N8hVgn079845 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 01:43:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i29so113978wxd for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 01:43:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=GKDjBK1v7k2VUYHEW7mpurTmUGRKuewKipDsIw6YvU57PEJrj/5B0qzWZU/tluRMBYNUejcCCWJZpjGh35kJVmqhij1Np7rgdDmC626QmgrJXZZQK1QpkKxfrUHD6yuTyJp/TbdM+gN2ELJ6JHM/4C8VJdF8SaUhbPfiOagaaL8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=qyIbU8veuIvaZAQw5GjtWmHqgObYI0aWN8NkBUtjqaY19tz3alSfeGjLWYzsnkpEvXRdaUEON/iUSdw2qJLoBUDQsynWIXT0dfznqEPUA21O0VSFeLQF7NnszHAIVsbw6Rdf28m4cauMDzCnnFUHGxxScfrVh5Rg57m9aROOrb0= Received: by 10.90.119.15 with SMTP id r15mr142366agc.1179909808894; Wed, 23 May 2007 01:43:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.111? ( [67.181.218.96]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id 3sm858579wrs.2007.05.23.01.43.27; Wed, 23 May 2007 01:43:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4653FEAE.8030300@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 01:43:26 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070326) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Franklin Tse CC: James Holderness , atom-syntax Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-10.txt References: <16DD5E1B-B844-483A-B8D1-EB6A639E8B22@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Well, for an RSS feed, it's URL pretty much plays the role of the identifier*. An atom:id certainly could be used, but I wouldn't imagine that any sane implementation would make it anything different than the URL of the RSS feed itself. * quite honestly, I've never really understood why atom:feed requires an atom:id :-) - James Franklin Tse wrote: > [snip] > By the way, do publishers need to use an atom:id element in RSS 2 feeds since there is no equivalent in RSS 2? > [snip] From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 23 05:09:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqmqD-0000cZ-7D for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 05:09:09 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqmqB-0007Ja-Pp for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 05:09:09 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4N8pt6M082517 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 23 May 2007 01:51:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4N8pt40082516; Wed, 23 May 2007 01:51:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc3-s21.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc3-s21.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.221]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4N8psL5082508 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 01:51:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from peaceable_whale@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.133.21]) by bay0-omc3-s21.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Wed, 23 May 2007 01:51:54 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 23 May 2007 01:51:54 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 61.238.43.155 by BAY128-DAV11.phx.gbl with DAV; Wed, 23 May 2007 08:51:52 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [61.238.43.155] X-Originating-Email: [peaceable_whale@hotmail.com] X-Sender: peaceable_whale@hotmail.com From: "Franklin Tse" To: "James M Snell" Cc: "James Holderness" , "atom-syntax" References: <16DD5E1B-B844-483A-B8D1-EB6A639E8B22@mnot.net> <4653FEAE.8030300@gmail.com> Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-10.txt Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 16:51:49 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail desktop 8.0.1226 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V8.0.1226 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 May 2007 08:51:54.0613 (UTC) FILETIME=[9CEFFA50:01C79D17] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id l4N8ptL5082511 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a When the URL of a feed is changed, its atom:id can remain unchanged, and that is assumed to be the same feed theoretically. (I am not sure if that is the case in the real world) Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: "James M Snell" To: "Franklin Tse" Cc: "James Holderness" ; "atom-syntax" Sent: Wednesday, 23 May, 2007 16:43 Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-10.txt > Well, for an RSS feed, it's URL pretty much plays the role of the > identifier*. An atom:id certainly could be used, but I wouldn't imagine > that any sane implementation would make it anything different than the > URL of the RSS feed itself. > > * quite honestly, I've never really understood why atom:feed requires an > atom:id :-) > > - James > > Franklin Tse wrote: >> [snip] >> By the way, do publishers need to use an atom:id element in RSS 2 feeds since there is no equivalent in RSS 2? >> [snip] > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 23 05:15:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqmvs-0004Rz-FV for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 05:15:00 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqmvr-0000SH-23 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 05:15:00 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4N8v3d9083885 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 23 May 2007 01:57:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4N8v3gU083884; Wed, 23 May 2007 01:57:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.227]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4N8v2pF083869 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 01:57:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i29so116622wxd for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 01:57:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=n8jv5KN5MsZ/dtWTFQLDSQpIivus7+Fh52Mb7Mm9837AJkIYtz8+RrsBFFDHQl8/aBRyrNpu+XQSYxEmg+tzLwL0EGGoaw+u3xdL3ZBD9MmalAfE4jfMhCCb1ESy6cVYLn3WFHlrfWxPuf53L1Jnm/POxpyMy/h1Q55oFVA3TCY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=c3AIk7VUcKgQxhKrMUXIH9pI4OH7VkwrPkYcqPZgezX/+DWHl5u++ugeNENLWaO6pDFNSyWv905spYGy91xhXueoE6qzXWFDIQL4efFoaK5rwFaL8vNk+7iS3reayYZq5JaJVGpWvdNHxsmd/UX7mv01d5SMYp+7/SdXKj9TzI0= Received: by 10.90.101.19 with SMTP id y19mr134721agb.1179910621726; Wed, 23 May 2007 01:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.111? ( [67.181.218.96]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id c53sm874660wrc.2007.05.23.01.56.58; Wed, 23 May 2007 01:56:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <465401D9.5010500@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 01:56:57 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070326) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Franklin Tse CC: James Holderness , atom-syntax Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-10.txt References: <16DD5E1B-B844-483A-B8D1-EB6A639E8B22@mnot.net> <4653FEAE.8030300@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Yeah, I understand why it can be useful, I just don't know why it's *required*. Ah well, that proverbial ship has sailed ;-) Franklin Tse wrote: > When the URL of a feed is changed, its atom:id can remain unchanged, and that is assumed to be the same feed theoretically. > > (I am not sure if that is the case in the real world) > > Franklin > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James M Snell" > To: "Franklin Tse" > Cc: "James Holderness" ; "atom-syntax" > Sent: Wednesday, 23 May, 2007 16:43 > Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-10.txt > >> Well, for an RSS feed, it's URL pretty much plays the role of the >> identifier*. An atom:id certainly could be used, but I wouldn't imagine >> that any sane implementation would make it anything different than the >> URL of the RSS feed itself. >> >> * quite honestly, I've never really understood why atom:feed requires an >> atom:id :-) >> >> - James >> >> Franklin Tse wrote: >>> [snip] >>> By the way, do publishers need to use an atom:id element in RSS 2 feeds since there is no equivalent in RSS 2? >>> [snip] > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 23 15:23:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqwQH-0000GF-Ix for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:23:01 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqwQG-0003hy-4q for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:23:01 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4NIpVTW047619 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 23 May 2007 11:51:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4NIpVYi047618; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:51:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mailgw2a.lmco.com (mailgw2a.lmco.com [192.91.147.7]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4NIpUiU047609 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:51:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from matthew.r.becker@lmco.com) Received: from emss03g01.ems.lmco.com (relay3.ems.lmco.com [141.240.4.144])by mailgw2a.lmco.com (LM-6) with ESMTP id l4NIpTbG010826for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:51:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.lmco.com by lmco.com (PMDF V6.3-x3 #31239) id <0JII00I01CDTYM@lmco.com> for atom-syntax@vpnc.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:51:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EMSS04I00.us.lmco.com ([166.17.13.135]) by lmco.com (PMDF V6.3-x3 #31239) with ESMTP id <0JII008M3CDJ45@lmco.com> for atom-syntax@vpnc.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:51:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from emss04m05.us.lmco.com ([166.17.13.61]) by EMSS04I00.us.lmco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Wed, 23 May 2007 14:51:19 -0400 Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 14:51:18 -0400 From: "Becker, Matthew R" Subject: Order of Entries within a Feed To: atom-syntax@vpnc.org Message-id: <249DC7180F301445BCA2E01EAAFDF40903FE92E9@emss04m05.us.lmco.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_WJphzBPKD2TWAl1tYPcz2A)" Thread-Topic: Order of Entries within a Feed thread-index: Aceda1XCnoZK+KhOSjmdkREC7F49Jg== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 May 2007 18:51:19.0034 (UTC) FILETIME=[59671DA0:01C79D6B] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 31247fb3be228bb596db9127becad0bc This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_WJphzBPKD2TWAl1tYPcz2A) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT For performance reasons a client paging through a feed may wish for the feed entries to be ordered in a particular way. Is there a recommended technique to expose a feed that orders entries different from the standard? Thanks, Matt. --Boundary_(ID_WJphzBPKD2TWAl1tYPcz2A) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

For performance reasons a client paging through a feed may wish for the feed entries to be ordered in a particular way. Is there a recommended technique to expose a feed that orders entries different from the standard?

 

Thanks,

Matt.

--Boundary_(ID_WJphzBPKD2TWAl1tYPcz2A)-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 23 16:31:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqxUI-0000NN-A8 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 16:31:14 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqxUF-000552-UW for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 16:31:14 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4NKBDmv074593 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 23 May 2007 13:11:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4NKBDSb074588; Wed, 23 May 2007 13:11:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id l4NKBBv7074565 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 13:11:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 23 May 2007 20:11:10 -0000 Received: from static-87-79-236-202.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [87.79.236.202] by mail.gmx.net (mp041) with SMTP; 23 May 2007 22:11:10 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+m5Rxn1TemlVBF6uspPnPCRdi4p3eliX6nWM5zdl BTgfS25eHD3Z5A Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 22:11:09 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Order of Entries within a Feed Message-ID: <20070523201109.GB8531@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <249DC7180F301445BCA2E01EAAFDF40903FE92E9@emss04m05.us.lmco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <249DC7180F301445BCA2E01EAAFDF40903FE92E9@emss04m05.us.lmco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id l4NKBDmv074593 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a * Becker, Matthew R [2007-05-23 21:45]: > Is there a recommended technique to expose a feed that orders > entries different from the standard? The standard prescribes no ordering, and in fact explicitly states that the order of entries within a feed is meaningless. This means, that=E2=80=A6 > For performance reasons a client paging through a feed may wish > for the feed entries to be ordered in a particular way. =E2=80=A6 these clients are broken if they can=E2=80=99t handle arbitrary ordering. If you want to do such a thing, then you would have to define an extension element (placed at the feed level, at the top of the feed, along with the other feed metadata) that describes the order. A client could then use this optional information, where it is present, in order to optimise its processing. RFC 4287 itself makes no such provision, though. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 23 17:36:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqyVC-0002GD-TM for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 17:36:14 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqyVB-000121-Ge for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 17:36:14 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4NLGSQw000254 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 23 May 2007 14:16:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4NLGSa2000253; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:16:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id l4NLGRA2000231 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:16:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 23 May 2007 21:16:26 -0000 Received: from static-87-79-236-202.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [87.79.236.202] by mail.gmx.net (mp042) with SMTP; 23 May 2007 23:16:26 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX18ILZo+kdgIGd/IZ73bT7qApGkdIpfkDnkAD0v9ay 4eh7F3H96C2W/V Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 23:16:22 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Order of Entries within a Feed Message-ID: <20070523211622.GA9156@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <249DC7180F301445BCA2E01EAAFDF40903FE92E9@emss04m05.us.lmco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <249DC7180F301445BCA2E01EAAFDF40903FE92E9@emss04m05.us.lmco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 * Becker, Matthew R [2007-05-23 21:45]: > For performance reasons a client paging through a feed may wish > for the feed entries to be ordered in a particular way. Is > there a recommended technique to expose a feed that orders > entries different from the standard? Btw, if you have so many entries in a feed that you have to use a specific order in order for clients to be able to achieve acceptable performance, then maybe what you actually want to do is reduce the size of your feeds. The Feed History extension draft would be of interest in that case. Another option to investigate would be RFC3229+feed: http://www.google.com/search?q=rfc3229-feed Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 23 20:08:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hr0s7-00056K-Cm for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:08:03 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hr0s6-0004k9-Sg for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:08:03 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4NNfAUW057119 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 23 May 2007 16:41:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4NNfAug057118; Wed, 23 May 2007 16:41:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.49]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4NNf960057110 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 16:41:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from djpowell@djpowell.net) Received: from aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20070523234107.EPQW13.mtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com> for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 00:41:07 +0100 Received: from Dave-PC.KWGR614 ([86.4.233.171]) by aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20070523234107.IHFZ219.aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@Dave-PC.KWGR614> for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 00:41:07 +0100 Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 00:41:04 +0100 From: David Powell X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.99.1) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <15210512179.20070524004104@djpowell.net> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Order of Entries within a Feed In-Reply-To: <20070523201109.GB8531@klangraum> References: <249DC7180F301445BCA2E01EAAFDF40903FE92E9@emss04m05.us.lmco.com> <20070523201109.GB8531@klangraum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id l4NNfA60057113 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id l4NNfAUW057119 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa Wednesday, May 23, 2007, 9:11:09 PM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: >> For performance reasons a client paging through a feed may wish >> for the feed entries to be ordered in a particular way. > =E2=80=A6 these clients are broken if they can=E2=80=99t handle arbitra= ry > ordering. > If you want to do such a thing, then you would have to define an > extension element (placed at the feed level, at the top of the > feed, along with the other feed metadata) that describes the > order. > A client could then use this optional information, where it is > present, in order to optimise its processing. > RFC 4287 itself makes no such provision, though. ... and there is no guarantee that such an extension would work, because by overriding RFC4287s assertion that a feed is unordered, the extension would effectively have mustUnderstand semantics, which Atom doesn't support. Just because the publisher has added an element, doesn't mean that services like FeedBurner, Yahoo Pipes, and whatever else haven't changed the order and passed the element through. If these services knew of the element, then they would know to strip it if they change the order, but you can't expect those services to know anything more than RFC 4287. ... Having said that, Microsoft's Simple List Extensions for RSS [1] might be useful. They allow you to specify a sort order for display of a feed, and the default sort order additionally acts as an assertion that the feed is physically sorted in that order. The caveats above still apply though. [1] http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-gb/xml/bb190612.aspx --=20 Dave From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 23 20:37:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hr1K8-0000SN-J2 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:37:00 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hr1K7-0005Nx-5K for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:37:00 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4O0IZRB070746 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 23 May 2007 17:18:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4O0IZc3070745; Wed, 23 May 2007 17:18:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id l4O0IXHD070721 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 17:18:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 24 May 2007 00:18:31 -0000 Received: from static-87-79-236-202.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [87.79.236.202] by mail.gmx.net (mp020) with SMTP; 24 May 2007 02:18:31 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/3Cq984hD3jh6kZPKUhnrHnNQPTd0lLPPvTVNoZz IO+SE05UxpYRYE Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 02:18:27 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Order of Entries within a Feed Message-ID: <20070524001827.GE32599@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <249DC7180F301445BCA2E01EAAFDF40903FE92E9@emss04m05.us.lmco.com> <20070523201109.GB8531@klangraum> <15210512179.20070524004104@djpowell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <15210512179.20070524004104@djpowell.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 * David Powell [2007-05-24 02:05]: > Wednesday, May 23, 2007, 9:11:09 PM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > > A client could then use this optional information, where it > > is present, in order to optimise its processing. > > > RFC 4287 itself makes no such provision, though. > > ... and there is no guarantee that such an extension would > work, because by overriding RFC4287s assertion that a feed is > unordered, the extension would effectively have mustUnderstand > semantics, which Atom doesn't support. How so? Pure RFC 4287 implementations would process the entire feed as usual. Clients which understand the extension could skip some of the processing based on the order of the entries. I see no change in feed semantics that would affect oblivious clients. > Having said that, Microsoft's Simple List Extensions for RSS > [1] might be useful. They allow you to specify a sort order for > display of a feed, and the default sort order additionally acts > as an assertion that the feed is physically sorted in that > order. The caveats above still apply though. > > [1] http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-gb/xml/bb190612.aspx FWIW, the `cf:treatAs/text()='list'` feature of that spec *does* change the feed semantics in a way incompatible with RFC 4287. The `cf:listinfo` feature set OTOH would be what Matthew Becker is looking for, and can be used independently of the `cf:treatAs` feature, and if it is, then by the aforementioned argument, the caveat does *not* apply. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed May 23 22:18:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hr2tu-0000Oi-IP for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 22:18:02 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hr2tu-0001i8-4o for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 22:18:02 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4O1tnWr001360 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 23 May 2007 18:55:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4O1tn00001359; Wed, 23 May 2007 18:55:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.237]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4O1tmn1001345 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 18:55:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i29so210901wxd for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 18:55:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=oBZeG/zGz4Uryjn6kQe6H3+d0ybNDh73yVh8EoQbeHvPvyrPWMCD+nsIiGgZ6PHmlk/MgIrS29pCEIXq9oqhEXJi8LGrIXBXV0KVqdAm+02icU6UZ6Kwkh1T6OWmVHfUGFsBLhpyxHfMkqb3nGd0AHHQu+81Zv3M9V4HvlaTjRk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=gmfarZYJ1s5XVRJMVpe7Plnl/XKEYrsv2hQZeE906IyBpkNVOET/nSDC0vmS13+s4H9TlYB5BJDbaNPnE5i7k0CLtHtzhi5ojtPOzs9Vh0FKaD+MJjGfuIzWWmT5Z4GXDaNwU4VethJMR40hdNSxeHIhZFSZhyMGBCxJ1jEIV24= Received: by 10.70.130.19 with SMTP id c19mr1171115wxd.1179971747840; Wed, 23 May 2007 18:55:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.111? ( [67.181.218.96]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id q30sm175601wrq.2007.05.23.18.55.46; Wed, 23 May 2007 18:55:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4654F0A0.7040206@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 18:55:44 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070326) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Order of Entries within a Feed References: <249DC7180F301445BCA2E01EAAFDF40903FE92E9@emss04m05.us.lmco.com> <20070523201109.GB8531@klangraum> <15210512179.20070524004104@djpowell.net> <20070524001827.GE32599@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20070524001827.GE32599@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 The most reliable approach here would be to create an extension that allows the appropriate order to be recreated. The index extension I had pitched a while back took this approach. It's most effective if the feed publisher ensures that the entries are presented in the proper order, but even if they are not, the client can faithfully recreate the appropriate ordering. - James A. Pagaltzis wrote: > * David Powell [2007-05-24 02:05]: >> Wednesday, May 23, 2007, 9:11:09 PM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: >>> A client could then use this optional information, where it >>> is present, in order to optimise its processing. >>> RFC 4287 itself makes no such provision, though. >> ... and there is no guarantee that such an extension would >> work, because by overriding RFC4287s assertion that a feed is >> unordered, the extension would effectively have mustUnderstand >> semantics, which Atom doesn't support. > > How so? Pure RFC 4287 implementations would process the entire > feed as usual. Clients which understand the extension could skip > some of the processing based on the order of the entries. I see > no change in feed semantics that would affect oblivious clients. > >> Having said that, Microsoft's Simple List Extensions for RSS >> [1] might be useful. They allow you to specify a sort order for >> display of a feed, and the default sort order additionally acts >> as an assertion that the feed is physically sorted in that >> order. The caveats above still apply though. >> >> [1] http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-gb/xml/bb190612.aspx > > FWIW, the `cf:treatAs/text()='list'` feature of that spec *does* > change the feed semantics in a way incompatible with RFC 4287. > > The `cf:listinfo` feature set OTOH would be what Matthew Becker > is looking for, and can be used independently of the `cf:treatAs` > feature, and if it is, then by the aforementioned argument, the > caveat does *not* apply. > > Regards, From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu May 24 00:02:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hr4X4-0000UX-IM for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 24 May 2007 00:02:34 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hr4X3-0000WK-5O for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 24 May 2007 00:02:34 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4O3ip7e043300 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 23 May 2007 20:44:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4O3iph6043299; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:44:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id l4O3in2q043269 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:44:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 24 May 2007 03:44:48 -0000 Received: from static-87-79-236-202.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [87.79.236.202] by mail.gmx.net (mp047) with SMTP; 24 May 2007 05:44:48 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX18P+gxHz5sPzhcEGs6yZC2XsqgL8QpmadJ6X/rGho 1BKqbgQLiVpm2s Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 05:44:47 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Order of Entries within a Feed Message-ID: <20070524034447.GA11140@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <249DC7180F301445BCA2E01EAAFDF40903FE92E9@emss04m05.us.lmco.com> <20070523201109.GB8531@klangraum> <15210512179.20070524004104@djpowell.net> <20070524001827.GE32599@klangraum> <4654F0A0.7040206@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4654F0A0.7040206@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id l4O3ip7e043300 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f * James M Snell [2007-05-24 04:15]: > The most reliable approach here would be to create an extension > that allows the appropriate order to be recreated. My reading of Matthew Becker=E2=80=99s request is that he isn=E2=80=99t l= ooking for a way to sort the entries of a feed into a given order, rather he wants to be able to make assumptions about the order the entries appear in the feed, in order to optimise processing in some way. That doesn=E2=80=99t leave room for sorting after the fact; either the entries are in the right order for the optimisation to hold, or they=E2=80=99re not. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu May 24 00:26:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hr4ts-0007gY-0q for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 24 May 2007 00:26:08 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hr4tq-0005kf-KE for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 24 May 2007 00:26:08 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4O46FTg051048 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 23 May 2007 21:06:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4O46Fit051047; Wed, 23 May 2007 21:06:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.225]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4O46ETn051033 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 21:06:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id s16so2012wxc for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 21:06:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=UHEY5SYWRakdOmApK77FugFFUyk9ZPMyZ+WrU0WdWLMuBprCvBJE3bo+5NoSEXB10OZvIWvUWFYugv7+ZSxt7qFZXU5XDZHfHrAzSzgJvPVBYKSXuYppm5e5yOzrIB8doW5NRQc+Lxy9U2Qcancxy952MEbXV7ygfR4aPZK0yDA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=pAFMZnUIu+RMfBo8tkj6Kf0Zz+EGoYjCPKJFNRh+iir+Ycm3fZZ9B6X871gAr6ZbvpPjkVJKo4MXJVqim6MOiTaYHb09y6P62CyasSjRjl5mc2LbbyK8CRPsICb9fmUIRcvEps9vKMErCW2X7IH7Uy1tzJ6Ovz5vlJCaxIR3Itk= Received: by 10.70.13.1 with SMTP id 1mr1427406wxm.1179979573981; Wed, 23 May 2007 21:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.111? ( [67.181.218.96]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id 15sm360492wrl.2007.05.23.21.06.13; Wed, 23 May 2007 21:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <46550F33.5080205@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 21:06:11 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070326) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Order of Entries within a Feed References: <249DC7180F301445BCA2E01EAAFDF40903FE92E9@emss04m05.us.lmco.com> <20070523201109.GB8531@klangraum> <15210512179.20070524004104@djpowell.net> <20070524001827.GE32599@klangraum> <4654F0A0.7040206@gmail.com> <20070524034447.GA11140@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20070524034447.GA11140@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id l4O46FTg051048 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Ok, I hadn't read the message that started this thread so I missed that. Thanks for making that clear. - James A. Pagaltzis wrote: > * James M Snell [2007-05-24 04:15]: >> The most reliable approach here would be to create an extension >> that allows the appropriate order to be recreated. >=20 > My reading of Matthew Becker=E2=80=99s request is that he isn=E2=80=99t= looking > for a way to sort the entries of a feed into a given order, > rather he wants to be able to make assumptions about the order > the entries appear in the feed, in order to optimise processing > in some way. That doesn=E2=80=99t leave room for sorting after the fact= ; > either the entries are in the right order for the optimisation to > hold, or they=E2=80=99re not. >=20 > Regards, From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu May 24 07:57:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HrBwg-0003LS-CI for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 24 May 2007 07:57:30 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HrBwf-0003nP-UC for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 24 May 2007 07:57:30 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4OBUaFS091806 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 24 May 2007 04:30:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4OBUa0k091805; Thu, 24 May 2007 04:30:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mailgw1a.lmco.com (mailgw1a.lmco.com [192.31.106.7]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4OBUZ4S091797 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 04:30:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from matthew.r.becker@lmco.com) Received: from emss07g01.ems.lmco.com (relay5.ems.lmco.com [166.29.2.16])by mailgw1a.lmco.com (LM-6) with ESMTP id l4OBUYRZ000217for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 05:30:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.lmco.com by lmco.com (PMDF V6.3-x3 #31239) id <0JIJ00701MMYTP@lmco.com> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 24 May 2007 05:30:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from EMSS04I00.us.lmco.com ([166.17.13.135]) by lmco.com (PMDF V6.3-x3 #31239) with ESMTP id <0JIJ007HDMMO65@lmco.com> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 24 May 2007 05:30:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from emss04m05.us.lmco.com ([166.17.13.61]) by EMSS04I00.us.lmco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Thu, 24 May 2007 07:30:24 -0400 Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 07:30:23 -0400 From: "Becker, Matthew R" Subject: RE: Order of Entries within a Feed In-reply-to: <46550F33.5080205@gmail.com> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Message-id: <249DC7180F301445BCA2E01EAAFDF40904039BE3@emss04m05.us.lmco.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: Order of Entries within a Feed thread-index: Acedu7GcqK0E+VYVQC2U1P949i1tYgAOcbMA Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: References: <249DC7180F301445BCA2E01EAAFDF40903FE92E9@emss04m05.us.lmco.com> <20070523201109.GB8531@klangraum> <15210512179.20070524004104@djpowell.net> <20070524001827.GE32599@klangraum> <4654F0A0.7040206@gmail.com> <20070524034447.GA11140@klangraum> <46550F33.5080205@gmail.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 May 2007 11:30:24.0291 (UTC) FILETIME=[EB8F6F30:01C79DF6] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 My original message referred to a standard ordering. By that I was referring to APP Draft 14, section 10 "The Entries in the returned Atom Feed SHOULD be ordered by their "atom:updated" property, with the most recently updated Entries coming first in the document order." We have large feeds so we implemented paging according to section 10.1 of APP draft 14. Assuming I've interpreted the APP draft correctly, we should be sending paged feeds where the entries are ordered by atom:updated. However we have certain clients that would like to see the feed entries ordered differently (app:edited for example). If this were sorted client side, the client would have to request every page in the feed and sort the large number of entries. If the client could request the feed sorted properly to begin with, then the client could stop paging when app:edited reached the timestamp of the last request. -----Original Message----- From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of James M Snell Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 12:06 AM To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Order of Entries within a Feed Ok, I hadn't read the message that started this thread so I missed that. Thanks for making that clear. - James A. Pagaltzis wrote: > * James M Snell [2007-05-24 04:15]: >> The most reliable approach here would be to create an extension >> that allows the appropriate order to be recreated. > > My reading of Matthew Becker's request is that he isn't looking > for a way to sort the entries of a feed into a given order, > rather he wants to be able to make assumptions about the order > the entries appear in the feed, in order to optimise processing > in some way. That doesn't leave room for sorting after the fact; > either the entries are in the right order for the optimisation to > hold, or they're not. > > Regards, From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu May 24 10:01:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HrDsm-00069a-Nl for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 24 May 2007 10:01:36 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HrDsl-0000KQ-7f for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 24 May 2007 10:01:36 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4ODeVmM026085 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 24 May 2007 06:40:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4ODeVLI026084; Thu, 24 May 2007 06:40:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ironclad.net.au ([203.30.247.11]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id l4ODeQfq026068 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 06:40:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au) Received: from [203.30.247.18] ([203.30.247.18] verified) by ironclad.net.au (Stalker SMTP Server 1.7) with ESMTP id S.1902556356 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 23:40:03 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 23:40:23 +1000 Subject: Re: Order of Entries within a Feed From: Eric Scheid To: Atom Syntax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <249DC7180F301445BCA2E01EAAFDF40904039BE3@emss04m05.us.lmco.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 On 24/5/07 9:30 PM, "Becker, Matthew R" wrote: > My original message referred to a standard ordering. By that I was > referring to APP Draft 14, section 10 "The Entries in the returned Atom > Feed SHOULD be ordered by their "atom:updated" property, with the most > recently updated Entries coming first in the document order." > > We have large feeds so we implemented paging according to section 10.1 > of APP draft 14. > > Assuming I've interpreted the APP draft correctly, we should be sending > paged feeds where the entries are ordered by atom:updated. draft 15 has this: The Entries in the returned Atom Feed SHOULD be ordered by their "app:edited" property, with the most recently edited Entries coming first in the document order. The app:edited value is not equivalent to the HTTP Last-Modified: header and cannot be used to determine the freshness of cached responses. http://bitworking.org/projects/atom/draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-15.html e. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu May 24 10:14:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HrE4x-0005z3-H3 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 24 May 2007 10:14:11 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HrE4w-00035E-3J for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 24 May 2007 10:14:11 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4ODs71g029257 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 24 May 2007 06:54:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4ODs7jY029256; Thu, 24 May 2007 06:54:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id l4ODs58n029221 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 06:54:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 24 May 2007 13:54:02 -0000 Received: from static-87-79-236-202.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [87.79.236.202] by mail.gmx.net (mp027) with SMTP; 24 May 2007 15:54:02 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/yy6Qmoejy70G6L/Zph/h+WGBXkfuV4gJcXFEqP0 Jl0Hm43BVBGAwt Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 15:54:01 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Order of Entries within a Feed Message-ID: <20070524135401.GA13839@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <249DC7180F301445BCA2E01EAAFDF40903FE92E9@emss04m05.us.lmco.com> <20070523201109.GB8531@klangraum> <15210512179.20070524004104@djpowell.net> <20070524001827.GE32599@klangraum> <4654F0A0.7040206@gmail.com> <20070524034447.GA11140@klangraum> <46550F33.5080205@gmail.com> <249DC7180F301445BCA2E01EAAFDF40904039BE3@emss04m05.us.lmco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <249DC7180F301445BCA2E01EAAFDF40904039BE3@emss04m05.us.lmco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id l4ODs71g029257 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 * Becker, Matthew R [2007-05-24 13:55]: > My original message referred to a standard ordering. By that I was > referring to APP Draft 14, section 10 "The Entries in the returned Atom > Feed SHOULD be ordered by their "atom:updated" property, with the most > recently updated Entries coming first in the document order." That has changed in -draft-15: The Entries in the returned Atom Feed SHOULD be ordered by their "app:edited" property, with the most recently edited Entries coming first in the document order. The app:edited value is not equivalent to the HTTP Last-Modified: header and cannot be used to determine the freshness of cached responses. > Assuming I've interpreted the APP draft correctly, we should be > sending paged feeds where the entries are ordered by > atom:updated. That is the correct interpretation of -draft-14, yes. Again, though, it is moot, because of the -draft-15 changes. > However we have certain clients that would like to see the feed > entries ordered differently (app:edited for example). If you also need feed ordering by something other than `app:edited`, then you can=E2=80=99t do that in the collection feed. There is, however, nothing to stop you from linking other, non- collection feeds (ie. with a different `rel` value) from the service document. You=E2=80=99d just need to specify in an extension how clients can know the ordering of these feeds so they can request the one they=E2=80=99d like. > If this were sorted client side, the client would have to > request every page in the feed and sort the large number of > entries. If the client could request the feed sorted properly > to begin with, then the client could stop paging when > app:edited reached the timestamp of the last request. That is exactly the rationale that was put forward for the change in =C2=A710. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu May 24 10:33:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HrENr-0002H9-2f for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 24 May 2007 10:33:43 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HrENo-0005tF-M8 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 24 May 2007 10:33:43 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4OEAsOQ033312 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 24 May 2007 07:10:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4OEAssv033311; Thu, 24 May 2007 07:10:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from vanadium.sabren.com (vanadium.sabren.com [67.19.173.84]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4OEArCb033297 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 07:10:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rubys@intertwingly.net) Received: from [192.168.1.102] (cpe-066-057-030-044.nc.res.rr.com [66.57.30.44]) (authenticated bits=0) by vanadium.sabren.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4OEAqOr018227; Thu, 24 May 2007 10:10:52 -0400 Message-ID: <46559CEB.6000306@intertwingly.net> Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 10:10:51 -0400 From: Sam Ruby User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (X11/20070403) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James M Snell CC: atom-syntax Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-10.txt References: <16DD5E1B-B844-483A-B8D1-EB6A639E8B22@mnot.net> <4653FEAE.8030300@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4653FEAE.8030300@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 James M Snell wrote: > Well, for an RSS feed, it's URL pretty much plays the role of the > identifier*. An atom:id certainly could be used, but I wouldn't imagine > that any sane implementation would make it anything different than the > URL of the RSS feed itself. > > * quite honestly, I've never really understood why atom:feed requires an > atom:id :-) For an RSS feed, Venus assumes that the element plays the role of an identifier. Assumes being the operative word. In RSS (all flavors), channel link is required. In Atom, feed id is required. In any case, one can have multiple feeds (possibly in different formats) all at different URIs all identifying the same thing. - Sam Ruby From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri May 25 00:33:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HrRUL-0007PR-2m for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 25 May 2007 00:33:17 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HrRUJ-0001ns-LZ for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 25 May 2007 00:33:17 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4P49nag017820 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 24 May 2007 21:09:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4P49nBd017819; Thu, 24 May 2007 21:09:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nlpi043.sbcis.sbc.com (nlpi043.sbcis.sbc.com [207.115.36.72]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4P49lXl017810 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 21:09:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jpanzeracm@johnpanzer.com) X-ORBL: [70.132.24.53] Received: from [192.168.1.2] (adsl-70-132-24-53.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net [70.132.24.53]) by nlpi043.sbcis.sbc.com (8.13.8 out.dk.spool/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4P48QOM006958; Thu, 24 May 2007 23:08:27 -0500 Message-ID: <46566FBA.6060205@johnpanzer.com> Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 22:10:18 -0700 From: John Panzer Reply-To: jpanzer@acm.org User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0RC1 (Windows/20041201) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sam Ruby CC: James M Snell , atom-syntax Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-10.txt References: <16DD5E1B-B844-483A-B8D1-EB6A639E8B22@mnot.net> <4653FEAE.8030300@gmail.com> <46559CEB.6000306@intertwingly.net> In-Reply-To: <46559CEB.6000306@intertwingly.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Sam Ruby wrote: > > James M Snell wrote: > >> Well, for an RSS feed, it's URL pretty much plays the role of the >> identifier*. An atom:id certainly could be used, but I wouldn't imagine >> that any sane implementation would make it anything different than the >> URL of the RSS feed itself. >> >> * quite honestly, I've never really understood why atom:feed requires an >> atom:id :-) > > > For an RSS feed, Venus assumes that the element plays the role of > an identifier. Assumes being the operative word. > > In RSS (all flavors), channel link is required. In Atom, feed id is > required. > > In any case, one can have multiple feeds (possibly in different formats) > all at different URIs all identifying the same thing. Would these two qualify as having the same IDs (were they Atom)? http://www.engadget.com/rss.xml http://www.engadget.com/headlines.xml -John From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri May 25 03:27:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HrUCd-0002EG-Oh for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 25 May 2007 03:27:11 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HrUCc-0007FS-3U for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 25 May 2007 03:27:11 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4P73w4D072855 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 25 May 2007 00:03:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4P73wqZ072853; Fri, 25 May 2007 00:03:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc3-s13.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc3-s13.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.213]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4P73uXO072846 for ; Fri, 25 May 2007 00:03:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from peaceable_whale@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.133.18]) by bay0-omc3-s13.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Fri, 25 May 2007 00:03:55 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 25 May 2007 00:03:56 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 61.238.43.155 by BAY128-DAV8.phx.gbl with DAV; Fri, 25 May 2007 07:03:54 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [61.238.43.155] X-Originating-Email: [peaceable_whale@hotmail.com] X-Sender: peaceable_whale@hotmail.com From: "Franklin Tse" To: "Sam Ruby" Cc: "atom-syntax" References: <16DD5E1B-B844-483A-B8D1-EB6A639E8B22@mnot.net> <4653FEAE.8030300@gmail.com> <46559CEB.6000306@intertwingly.net> Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-10.txt Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 15:03:48 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail desktop 8.0.1226 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V8.0.1226 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 May 2007 07:03:56.0022 (UTC) FILETIME=[DC38F160:01C79E9A] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id l4P73vXO072847 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 What would happen if an RSS feed contains atom:id? Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Ruby" To: "James M Snell" Cc: "atom-syntax" Sent: Thursday, 24 May, 2007 22:10 Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-atompub-feed-history-10.txt > > James M Snell wrote: >> Well, for an RSS feed, it's URL pretty much plays the role of the >> identifier*. An atom:id certainly could be used, but I wouldn't imagine >> that any sane implementation would make it anything different than the >> URL of the RSS feed itself. >> >> * quite honestly, I've never really understood why atom:feed requires an >> atom:id :-) > > For an RSS feed, Venus assumes that the element plays the role of > an identifier. Assumes being the operative word. > > In RSS (all flavors), channel link is required. In Atom, feed id is > required. > > In any case, one can have multiple feeds (possibly in different formats) > all at different URIs all identifying the same thing. > > - Sam Ruby > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri May 25 13:09:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HrdHy-0002tg-Lk for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 25 May 2007 13:09:18 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HrdHx-0006hI-6A for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 25 May 2007 13:09:18 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4PGiR5J098835 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 25 May 2007 09:44:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4PGiRO5098834; Fri, 25 May 2007 09:44:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mailgw2a.lmco.com (mailgw2a.lmco.com [192.91.147.7]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4PGiQmQ098828 for ; Fri, 25 May 2007 09:44:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from matthew.r.becker@lmco.com) Received: from emss03g01.ems.lmco.com (relay3.ems.lmco.com [141.240.4.144])by mailgw2a.lmco.com (LM-6) with ESMTP id l4PGiPeQ008370for ; Fri, 25 May 2007 12:44:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.lmco.com by lmco.com (PMDF V6.3-x3 #31239) id <0JIL00H01VU1WS@lmco.com> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 25 May 2007 12:44:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EMSS04I00.us.lmco.com ([166.17.13.135]) by lmco.com (PMDF V6.3-x3 #31239) with ESMTP id <0JIL007HKVTRIU@lmco.com> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Fri, 25 May 2007 12:44:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from emss04m05.us.lmco.com ([166.17.13.61]) by EMSS04I00.us.lmco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Fri, 25 May 2007 12:44:15 -0400 Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 12:43:25 -0400 From: "Becker, Matthew R" Subject: RE: Order of Entries within a Feed In-reply-to: <20070524135401.GA13839@klangraum> To: atom-syntax@imc.org Message-id: <249DC7180F301445BCA2E01EAAFDF4090409F5FB@emss04m05.us.lmco.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Thread-Topic: Order of Entries within a Feed Thread-Index: AceeDdd3Sfr2ZcC2QY+iOKyTIVStsgA2B93A Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: References: <249DC7180F301445BCA2E01EAAFDF40903FE92E9@emss04m05.us.lmco.com> <20070523201109.GB8531@klangraum> <15210512179.20070524004104@djpowell.net> <20070524001827.GE32599@klangraum> <4654F0A0.7040206@gmail.com> <20070524034447.GA11140@klangraum> <46550F33.5080205@gmail.com> <249DC7180F301445BCA2E01EAAFDF40904039BE3@emss04m05.us.lmco.com> <20070524135401.GA13839@klangraum> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 May 2007 16:44:15.0151 (UTC) FILETIME=[EE0A63F0:01C79EEB] X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id l4PGiQmQ098829 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id l4PGiR5J098835 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4b800b1eab964a31702fa68f1ff0e955 This approach sounds good. Thanks. > There is, however, nothing to stop you from linking other, non- > collection feeds (ie. with a different `rel` value) from the > service document. You'd just need to specify in an extension how > clients can know the ordering of these feeds so they can request > the one they'd like. Can anyone elaborate some more on why draft 15 is changing the standard o= rdering to be based on app:edited instead of atom:updated? Wouldn't feed = readers be triggering off of atom:updated? Leaving that as the default so= rt order would allow for optimization in determining significantly change= d content as opposed to ordering on app:edited where changes may or may n= ot have been significant. -----Original Message----- From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.o= rg] On Behalf Of A. Pagaltzis Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 9:54 AM To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Order of Entries within a Feed * Becker, Matthew R [2007-05-24 13:55]: > My original message referred to a standard ordering. By that I was > referring to APP Draft 14, section 10 "The Entries in the returned Atom > Feed SHOULD be ordered by their "atom:updated" property, with the most > recently updated Entries coming first in the document order." That has changed in -draft-15: The Entries in the returned Atom Feed SHOULD be ordered by their "app:edited" property, with the most recently edited Entries coming first in the document order. The app:edited value is not equivalent to the HTTP Last-Modified: header and cannot be used to determine the freshness of cached responses. > Assuming I've interpreted the APP draft correctly, we should be > sending paged feeds where the entries are ordered by > atom:updated. That is the correct interpretation of -draft-14, yes. Again, though, it is moot, because of the -draft-15 changes. > However we have certain clients that would like to see the feed > entries ordered differently (app:edited for example). If you also need feed ordering by something other than `app:edited`, then you can't do that in the collection feed. There is, however, nothing to stop you from linking other, non- collection feeds (ie. with a different `rel` value) from the service document. You'd just need to specify in an extension how clients can know the ordering of these feeds so they can request the one they'd like. > If this were sorted client side, the client would have to > request every page in the feed and sort the large number of > entries. If the client could request the feed sorted properly > to begin with, then the client could stop paging when > app:edited reached the timestamp of the last request. That is exactly the rationale that was put forward for the change in =A710. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri May 25 14:48:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HreqG-0007aJ-1f for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 25 May 2007 14:48:48 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HreqE-0005Nx-KH for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 25 May 2007 14:48:48 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4PIRX1x037967 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 25 May 2007 11:27:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4PIRXQQ037965; Fri, 25 May 2007 11:27:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail1.webfaction.com (mail1.webfaction.com [67.15.2.85]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4PIRUun037948 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 25 May 2007 11:27:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from sh@defuze.org) Received: from [192.168.0.2] ([89.243.54.83]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail1.webfaction.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l4PIRMSY024396; Fri, 25 May 2007 13:27:28 -0500 Message-ID: <46572A85.1040600@defuze.org> Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 19:27:17 +0100 From: Sylvain Hellegouarch User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (X11/20070403) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Becker, Matthew R" CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Order of Entries within a Feed References: <249DC7180F301445BCA2E01EAAFDF40903FE92E9@emss04m05.us.lmco.com> <20070523201109.GB8531@klangraum> <15210512179.20070524004104@djpowell.net> <20070524001827.GE32599@klangraum> <4654F0A0.7040206@gmail.com> <20070524034447.GA11140@klangraum> <46550F33.5080205@gmail.com> <249DC7180F301445BCA2E01EAAFDF40904039BE3@emss04m05.us.lmco.com> <20070524135401.GA13839@klangraum> <249DC7180F301445BCA2E01EAAFDF4090409F5FB@emss04m05.us.lmco.com> In-Reply-To: <249DC7180F301445BCA2E01EAAFDF4090409F5FB@emss04m05.us.lmco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id l4PIRX1x037967 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Becker, Matthew R a =E9crit : > This approach sounds good. Thanks. > =20 >> There is, however, nothing to stop you from linking other, non- >> collection feeds (ie. with a different `rel` value) from the >> service document. You'd just need to specify in an extension how >> clients can know the ordering of these feeds so they can request >> the one they'd like. >> =20 > > Can anyone elaborate some more on why draft 15 is changing the standard= ordering to be based on app:edited instead of atom:updated? Wouldn't fee= d readers be triggering off of atom:updated? Leaving that as the default = sort order would allow for optimization in determining significantly chan= ged content as opposed to ordering on app:edited where changes may or may= not have been significant. > =20 If you search for the discussion you'll find a *very* long one so let's=20 not start it again. Basically: * the WG felt collections needed at least one default sorting element * app:edited is the best one for a collection feed which takes place in=20 the context of the AtomPub service itself In other words, you should not consider the collection feed as the=20 "public" feed to which you would like the public to subscribe to a feed.=20 Instead consider the collection feed to the limited set of users that=20 are interested in editing entries. If you need a "public" feed, create a=20 distinct atom feed where you can sort the entries as you please. That=20 feed would not be the collection feed, but a simple feed meaningless for=20 an APP aware peer. - Sylvain From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri May 25 16:46:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HrggU-00045C-63 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 25 May 2007 16:46:50 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HrggS-0007ZW-Ox for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 25 May 2007 16:46:50 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4PKQY2n082344 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 25 May 2007 13:26:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4PKQYhW082343; Fri, 25 May 2007 13:26:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.237]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4PKQWcB082328 for ; Fri, 25 May 2007 13:26:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id s16so427125wxc for ; Fri, 25 May 2007 13:26:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=kbliMRi5PKFzt3jmSwOpCoumCrF0wo0Pw7hWL6aUddp20P+7y3+IRDybnHgw7wWe4vfu7zTGfmm6cXZVWSOzmZymXHZExriQhoASuSRkJ1VQTmyJ4t7SzHk4Iu9lehcJj5AId1GwQPOYkP0cEZ/OwL9/HZflPLJJtDC3iu7lmTE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=kTTrUK3Qo0Wg61WrkszonodBAJ2rEjE2nUaHSoempSotWqfGc+OIkZCa5Pv15sAOB8g6uNO0J1LXQrJ1ySzekWUVuI1x28bO7oJrpQ19tRqE9szhPhpDuS2mrNISiB4chKH3XuVaB44nPgi00TKv6hc5MuPkWXYRd+eKGyof/Zg= Received: by 10.90.72.10 with SMTP id u10mr2899286aga.1180124790471; Fri, 25 May 2007 13:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.111? ( [67.181.218.96]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id 3sm3731908wrs.2007.05.25.13.26.29; Fri, 25 May 2007 13:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <46574673.4010406@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 13:26:27 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070326) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax Subject: Atom Feed Autodiscovery Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de General FYI... the Atom Feed Autodiscovery draft [1] expires tomorrow. There has been zero interest in moving this forward so I'm just going to let it die. - James [1] http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-autodiscovery-00.txt From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri May 25 18:44:59 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HriWp-0000Nm-0m for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 25 May 2007 18:44:59 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HriWn-0007TT-6M for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 25 May 2007 18:44:58 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4PMPjQT030242 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 25 May 2007 15:25:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4PMPjdG030241; Fri, 25 May 2007 15:25:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id l4PMPfZN030197 for ; Fri, 25 May 2007 15:25:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 25 May 2007 22:25:40 -0000 Received: from static-87-79-236-202.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [87.79.236.202] by mail.gmx.net (mp030) with SMTP; 26 May 2007 00:25:40 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/irXgIkyjimcwvzxhfoG2B/y7X1ehTmtKKNwhfMH ku58dbCnOghQda Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 00:25:37 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Order of Entries within a Feed Message-ID: <20070525222537.GA6038@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <249DC7180F301445BCA2E01EAAFDF40903FE92E9@emss04m05.us.lmco.com> <20070523201109.GB8531@klangraum> <15210512179.20070524004104@djpowell.net> <20070524001827.GE32599@klangraum> <4654F0A0.7040206@gmail.com> <20070524034447.GA11140@klangraum> <46550F33.5080205@gmail.com> <249DC7180F301445BCA2E01EAAFDF40904039BE3@emss04m05.us.lmco.com> <20070524135401.GA13839@klangraum> <249DC7180F301445BCA2E01EAAFDF4090409F5FB@emss04m05.us.lmco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <249DC7180F301445BCA2E01EAAFDF4090409F5FB@emss04m05.us.lmco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by balder-227.proper.com id l4PMPjQT030242 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb * Becker, Matthew R [2007-03-03 01:15]: > Can anyone elaborate some more on why draft 15 is changing the > standard ordering to be based on app:edited instead of > atom:updated? Wouldn't feed readers be triggering off of > atom:updated? Aside from the fact that feed readers should not be polling the collection feed in the first place, they don=E2=80=99t expect any particular ordering anyway. How to order the feed is the publisher=E2=80=99s choice, who can decide what entries aggregators should have the best chance of staying up to date with. > Leaving that as the default sort order would allow for > optimization in determining significantly changed content as > opposed to ordering on app:edited where changes may or may not > have been significant. There is no default order. RFC 4287 says no particular meaning can be derived from the order of entries in a feed. AtomPP imposes a constraint on that. The rationale for ordering is to allow efficient synchronisation of local caches by AtomPP clients. If app:edited changes, atom:updated doesn=E2=80=99t necessarily. If atom:updated changes, however, app:edited will also. Therefore, if the collection feed was ordered by atom:updated, minor updates could be buried arbitrarily far back in the collection feed, and clients can that keep a local cache would have to page through the entire collection to synch with the server. In contrast, if it=E2=80=99s ordered by app:edited, all edits (including significant) will bubble to the start of the feed, and the client can stop paging as soon as it sees an entry that was last edited before the last client synch. Regards, --=20 Aristotle Pagaltzis // From yuna59864@sina.com Fri May 25 23:07:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hrmcp-0002b1-AO for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 25 May 2007 23:07:27 -0400 Received: from [58.143.164.124] (helo=SPK12.localdomain) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hrmcn-0003ok-9o for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 25 May 2007 23:07:27 -0400 Received: by SPK12.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 48) id 20E66E7317F; Sat, 26 May 2007 12:02:34 +0900 (JST) To: atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCQ084NSROJSolUCU1JXMkckp6JC0kPyQkJEckOSQrISklbCVZGyhC?= =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCJWskT0RjJCQkRyQ5JCwzTjxCJEtKeiQxJF4kOSRoGyhCISE=?= From: Resent-Sender: yuna59864@sina.com Message-ID: <20070526120234.36122@sina.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-Id: <20070526030234.20E66E7317F@SPK12.localdomain> Resent-Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 12:02:34 +0900 (JST) Resent-From: yuna59864@sina.com (Apache) X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: a2c12dacc0736f14d6b540e805505a86 $B!&!&!&!E!E!D!D(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,!D!D!E!E!&!&!&(B $BFyBN4X78@lLg%3%_%e%K%F%#!<(B!$B:#$9$0CO85$N%[%F%k$XD>9T3Ne@lMQ!@!!(B $B(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(B $BEv%5%$%H$O(B40$BBe!A(B50$BBe$NFyBN4X78$r5a$a$F$$$k?M:J!&=O=w(B $B$,=8$^$kF|K\:GBg$NFyBN4X78%3%_%e%K%F%#!<%5%$%H$G$9!#(B $B(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(B $B!T$4MxMQ$K4X$7$F$N$4Cm0U!U(B $B-!!!$4MxMQ$OCK=w6&$K(B40$B:P0J>e$NJ}$N$_$H$5$;$FD:$-$^$9!#(B $B-"!!CK=w6&$K$*Aj$NCO0h!&%a!<%k%"%I%l%9!&%Q%9%o!<%I$r(B $B@_Dj$7$FD:$-$^$9!#(B $B-"!!$9$k$*Aj%"%I%l%9$,I=<($5$l$F$*$j$^$9$N$G(B $B$=$N;~E@$GD>@\$4O"Mm$r$7$FD:$$$F$b7k9=$G$9$7!"(B $B%5%$%HFb$+$i%a!<%k$K$FO"Mm$rD$7$F2<$5$$!#(B $B!ZCm0U![<+8J(BPR$BFb$KO"Mm@h$NI=<($,L5$$?M:J!&=O=w$5$s$O(B $B!!!!!!!!8r>D$,@.N)$7FyBN4X78Cf$G$9$N$GO"Mm@h$NI=<($,(B $B!!!!!!!!I|3h8e!":FEY8r>D$r$*4j$$CW$7$^$9!#(B $B(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(B $B!|K\F|!"CO85$N%*%P%5%s$HFyBN4X78$r4uK>$5$l$kCK@-$O(B $B!!(Bhttp://cjbjj.com:112/ddd/40-navi-10-11-12/ $B!|K\F|!"2P>H$C$?BN$rK~$?$7$FM_$7$$%*%P%5%s$O(B $B!!(Bhttp://cjbjj.com:112/ddd/40-navi-10-11-12/ $B(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(B $B!zBT9g$o$;$N>l=j$r%j%"%k%?%$%`$G$d$j Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HsVwM-0007wh-Jg for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 27 May 2007 23:30:38 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HsVwL-00034h-5K for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 27 May 2007 23:30:38 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4S35gJP064132 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 27 May 2007 20:05:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4S35g4O064131; Sun, 27 May 2007 20:05:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.179]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4S35dfa064123 for ; Sun, 27 May 2007 20:05:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from bobwyman@gmail.com) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id a29so182267pyi for ; Sun, 27 May 2007 20:05:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=DvkymhCZnw/MpkaO85zvS6ZVEctv4QFY3AHPn72D/18oIgVn7vh8rp1x7MHdhkNRD662e5vNdP7FPKH0jXuP/FQyqa+SQ0pIt3ptIXqkjOsBo5wx5LaMhbLg7g0oqAG6+8nwIVmyp3BdKAH/PQ00wbAdX1iAJepBAOnLVLIKjyM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=Pf4sYEOcGuek3ve5+YP1HweqGphFzeB6ieMgqhYTe9CNo1IEvJmxTkQV6yZnu2vyTWwaQvwRk8Owk0j7o7qqQWXK/+75M37oa1TeH7r5EKdLcEiyS9AxAR79KcShpwPpwv1E0xfGhem63pp2G6WuxWEei+tLQrRT9aeBFXhkSzU= Received: by 10.65.148.19 with SMTP id a19mr9575907qbo.1180321539302; Sun, 27 May 2007 20:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.233.7 with HTTP; Sun, 27 May 2007 20:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <45be5cd40705272005w7dde277ar3083026efaebba4b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 23:05:39 -0400 From: "Bob Wyman" To: "James M Snell" Subject: Re: Atom Feed Autodiscovery Cc: atom-syntax In-Reply-To: <46574673.4010406@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_39193_7084567.1180321539234" References: <46574673.4010406@gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 02f7434f17126da8 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 ------=_Part_39193_7084567.1180321539234 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Autodiscovery is a broadly used and useful convention. It is unfortunate and unhelpful if this is not formally defined somewhere. bob wyman On 5/25/07, James M Snell wrote: > > > General FYI... the Atom Feed Autodiscovery draft [1] expires tomorrow. > There has been zero interest in moving this forward so I'm just going to > let it die. > > - James > > [1] > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-autodiscovery-00.txt > > ------=_Part_39193_7084567.1180321539234 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Autodiscovery is a broadly used and useful convention. It is unfortunate and unhelpful if this is not formally defined somewhere.

bob wyman

On 5/25/07, James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> wrote:

General FYI... the Atom Feed Autodiscovery draft [1] expires tomorrow.
There has been zero interest in moving this forward so I'm just going to
let it die.

- James

[1]
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-autodiscovery-00.txt


------=_Part_39193_7084567.1180321539234-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon May 28 00:51:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HsXCt-0000Kt-4m for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 28 May 2007 00:51:47 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HsXCr-0002Xb-EA for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 28 May 2007 00:51:47 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4S4TAAI097101 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 27 May 2007 21:29:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4S4TA8A097093; Sun, 27 May 2007 21:29:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc1-s29.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc1-s29.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.101]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4S4T900097078 for ; Sun, 27 May 2007 21:29:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from peaceable_whale@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.133.19]) by bay0-omc1-s29.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Sun, 27 May 2007 21:29:08 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 27 May 2007 21:29:08 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 61.238.43.155 by BAY128-DAV9.phx.gbl with DAV; Mon, 28 May 2007 04:29:02 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [61.238.43.155] X-Originating-Email: [peaceable_whale@hotmail.com] X-Sender: peaceable_whale@hotmail.com From: "Franklin Tse" To: "Bob Wyman" Cc: "atom-syntax" References: <46574673.4010406@gmail.com> <45be5cd40705272005w7dde277ar3083026efaebba4b@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: Atom Feed Autodiscovery Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 12:28:55 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail desktop 8.0.1226 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V8.0.1226 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 May 2007 04:29:08.0903 (UTC) FILETIME=[BBE84B70:01C7A0E0] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id l4S4T900097082 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 I think this mail explained why: http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg19202.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Wyman" To: "James M Snell" Cc: "atom-syntax" Sent: Monday, 28 May, 2007 11:05 Subject: Re: Atom Feed Autodiscovery > Autodiscovery is a broadly used and useful convention. It is unfortunate and > unhelpful if this is not formally defined somewhere. > > bob wyman > > On 5/25/07, James M Snell wrote: >> >> >> General FYI... the Atom Feed Autodiscovery draft [1] expires tomorrow. >> There has been zero interest in moving this forward so I'm just going to >> let it die. >> >> - James >> >> [1] >> >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-autodiscovery-00.txt >> >> > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon May 28 01:47:56 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HsY5E-0007L6-KS for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 28 May 2007 01:47:56 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HsY5D-00033E-47 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 28 May 2007 01:47:56 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4S5STZR019911 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 27 May 2007 22:28:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4S5STiC019910; Sun, 27 May 2007 22:28:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.183]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4S5SRMP019902 for ; Sun, 27 May 2007 22:28:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id a29so227923pyi for ; Sun, 27 May 2007 22:28:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=VAArx9TAlot1D17+hMH4pX0xdUWtdwJ/e/Wm0M46JBAFNH3I2P+OUjCV7iOgfbVG06ovoxebRw7zSZnvqXtvg3eIx1bSYe3LEaw+kgNVoMo0KMFiNdgaucigPdt9T+9h9Qb8sf5l7VweP0JEtXS8v+h5JjqDzJuJb5S3QU6vpMk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=cVaWvCd3/RRC+qJuVAm0eKBdkT4nwC2wdOLuZ+XZ6kvEZQg6mk/FwhRNdJ8nNOCAKptQIvOpEPpe8DgRd1zJCmkrNbFhnPjIRI/yEeVZXEGt/6cn3Ulz6Izfej4rTBp1h+KDypk+W1yEvvYABJLie6Ev3IUhUNtW3O/c/Zw9QUk= Received: by 10.35.94.2 with SMTP id w2mr7690061pyl.1180330107220; Sun, 27 May 2007 22:28:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.111? ( [67.181.218.96]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id n44sm13829057pyh.2007.05.27.22.28.26; Sun, 27 May 2007 22:28:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <465A6878.2010702@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 22:28:24 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070326) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Franklin Tse CC: Bob Wyman , atom-syntax Subject: Re: Atom Feed Autodiscovery References: <46574673.4010406@gmail.com> <45be5cd40705272005w7dde277ar3083026efaebba4b@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Well, the why is simple enough. The draft had expired quite some time ago but the idea of standardized autodiscovery was always on the table. I simply revived the draft to give the WG a chance to decide if they wanted to move it forward. Regardless of any specific issues that may exist with the draft itself, there was zero interest demonstrated. So, now it really is dead. - James Franklin Tse wrote: > I think this mail explained why: http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg19202.html > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Wyman" > To: "James M Snell" > Cc: "atom-syntax" > Sent: Monday, 28 May, 2007 11:05 > Subject: Re: Atom Feed Autodiscovery > >> Autodiscovery is a broadly used and useful convention. It is unfortunate and >> unhelpful if this is not formally defined somewhere. >> >> bob wyman >> >> On 5/25/07, James M Snell wrote: >>> >>> General FYI... the Atom Feed Autodiscovery draft [1] expires tomorrow. >>> There has been zero interest in moving this forward so I'm just going to >>> let it die. >>> >>> - James >>> >>> [1] >>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-autodiscovery-00.txt >>> >>> > > From naoki8962@eyou.com Tue May 29 10:39:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ht2rP-0001GG-H9 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 29 May 2007 10:39:43 -0400 Received: from [58.236.14.76] (helo=SPK22.localdomain) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ht2rO-0003Q7-25 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 29 May 2007 10:39:43 -0400 Received: by SPK22.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 48) id 3894D6FCAD; Tue, 29 May 2007 23:20:36 +0900 (KST) To: atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCQ084NSROJSolUCU1JXMkckp6JC0kPyQkJEckOSQrISklbCVZGyhC?= =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCJWskT0RjJCQkRyQ5JCwzTjxCJEtKeiQxJF4kOSRoGyhCISE=?= From: Resent-Sender: naoki8962@eyou.com Message-ID: <20070529232036.40779@eyou.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-Id: <20070529142046.3894D6FCAD@SPK22.localdomain> Resent-Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 23:20:36 +0900 (KST) Resent-From: naoki8962@eyou.com (Apache) X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: a2c12dacc0736f14d6b540e805505a86 $B!&!&!&!E!E!D!D(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,!D!D!E!E!&!&!&(B $BFyBN4X78@lLg%3%_%e%K%F%#!<(B!$B:#$9$0CO85$N%[%F%k$XD>9T3Ne@lMQ!@!!(B $B(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(B $BEv%5%$%H$O(B40$BBe!A(B50$BBe$NFyBN4X78$r5a$a$F$$$k?M:J!&=O=w(B $B$,=8$^$kF|K\:GBg$NFyBN4X78%3%_%e%K%F%#!<%5%$%H$G$9!#(B $B(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(B $B!T$4MxMQ$K4X$7$F$N$4Cm0U!U(B $B-!!!$4MxMQ$OCK=w6&$K(B40$B:P0J>e$NJ}$N$_$H$5$;$FD:$-$^$9!#(B $B-"!!CK=w6&$K$*Aj$NCO0h!&%a!<%k%"%I%l%9!&%Q%9%o!<%I$r(B $B@_Dj$7$FD:$-$^$9!#(B $B-"!!$9$k$*Aj%"%I%l%9$,I=<($5$l$F$*$j$^$9$N$G(B $B$=$N;~E@$GD>@\$4O"Mm$r$7$FD:$$$F$b7k9=$G$9$7!"(B $B%5%$%HFb$+$i%a!<%k$K$FO"Mm$rD$7$F2<$5$$!#(B $B!ZCm0U![<+8J(BPR$BFb$KO"Mm@h$NI=<($,L5$$?M:J!&=O=w$5$s$O(B $B!!!!!!!!8r>D$,@.N)$7FyBN4X78Cf$G$9$N$GO"Mm@h$NI=<($,(B $B!!!!!!!!I|3h8e!":FEY8r>D$r$*4j$$CW$7$^$9!#(B $B(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(B $B!|K\F|!"CO85$N%*%P%5%s$HFyBN4X78$r4uK>$5$l$kCK@-$O(B $B!!(Bhttp://dpopd.com:112/01/1322 $B!|K\F|!"2P>H$C$?BN$rK~$?$7$FM_$7$$%*%P%5%s$O(B $B!!(Bhttp://dpopd.com:112/01/1322 $B(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(B $B!zBT9g$o$;$N>l=j$r%j%"%k%?%$%`$G$d$j Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ht85r-00031i-Qx for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 29 May 2007 16:15:00 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ht85q-0006wc-CK for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 29 May 2007 16:14:59 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4TJo7Ml018665 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 29 May 2007 12:50:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4TJo72E018664; Tue, 29 May 2007 12:50:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.neustar.com (ns1.neustar.com [156.154.16.138]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4TJo4Si018639 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 29 May 2007 12:50:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ietf@ietf.org) Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns1.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DC5326EA1; Tue, 29 May 2007 19:50:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Ht7hi-0007Nc-Q3; Tue, 29 May 2007 15:50:02 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-15.txt Message-Id: Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 15:50:02 -0400 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3002fc2e661cd7f114cb6bae92fe88f1 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Atom Publishing Format and Protocol Working Group of the IETF. Title : The Atom Publishing Protocol Author(s) : B. de Hora, J. Gregorio Filename : draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-15.txt Pages : 68 Date : 2007-5-29 The Atom Publishing Protocol (APP) is an application-level protocol for publishing and editing Web resources. The protocol is based on HTTP transfer of Atom-formatted representations. The Atom format is documented in the Atom Syndication Format. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-15.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-15.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-15.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-5-29133220.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-15.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-15.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-5-29133220.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue May 29 16:46:12 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ht8a4-0006uU-H1 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 29 May 2007 16:46:12 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ht8a1-0004cX-4E for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 29 May 2007 16:46:12 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4TKMSvM030872 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 29 May 2007 13:22:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4TKMSPe030871; Tue, 29 May 2007 13:22:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id l4TKMPek030845 for ; Tue, 29 May 2007 13:22:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from julian.reschke@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 29 May 2007 20:22:21 -0000 Received: from mail.greenbytes.de (EHLO [192.168.1.87]) [217.91.35.233] by mail.gmx.net (mp019) with SMTP; 29 May 2007 22:22:21 +0200 X-Authenticated: #1915285 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/rUFt5QJPr+EImH4+Iwi854H9essvAeyUBysQDRJ 38DFhvIdGzuZoc Message-ID: <465C8B7B.7060504@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 22:22:19 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; de; rv:1.8.0.4) Gecko/20060516 Thunderbird/1.5.0.4 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-atompub-protocol-15.txt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote: > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > ... Hm. The W3C references were only partly fixed (the anchors are now consistent, but the text itself wrt to "seriesInfo" wasn't). Please make sure that this gets fixed during AUTH48 (minimally). Best regards, Julian From nana_love@263.net Wed May 30 02:40:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HtHrZ-0000iF-VF for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2007 02:40:53 -0400 Received: from [220.173.120.45] (helo=SPK34) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HtHrZ-0004zp-25 for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2007 02:40:53 -0400 Received: by SPK34 (Postfix, from userid 48) id 1D7FD8E864E; Wed, 30 May 2007 12:27:53 +0800 (HKT) To: atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCQ084NSROJSolUCU1JXMkckp6JC0kPyQkJEckOSQrISklbCVZGyhC?= =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCJWskT0RjJCQkRyQ5JCwzTjxCJEtKeiQxJF4kOSRoGyhCISE=?= From: Resent-Sender: nana_love@263.net Message-ID: <20070530122753.33902@263.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-Id: <20070530053428.1D7FD8E864E@SPK34> Resent-Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 12:27:53 +0800 (HKT) Resent-From: nana_love@263.net (Apache) X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 2857c5c041d6c02d7181d602c22822c8 $B!&!&!&!E!E!D!D(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,!D!D!E!E!&!&!&(B $BFyBN4X78@lLg%3%_%e%K%F%#!<(B!$B:#$9$0CO85$N%[%F%k$XD>9T3Ne@lMQ!@!!(B $B(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(B $BEv%5%$%H$O(B40$BBe!A(B50$BBe$NFyBN4X78$r5a$a$F$$$k?M:J!&=O=w(B $B$,=8$^$kF|K\:GBg$NFyBN4X78%3%_%e%K%F%#!<%5%$%H$G$9!#(B $B(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(B $B!T$4MxMQ$K4X$7$F$N$4Cm0U!U(B $B-!!!$4MxMQ$OCK=w6&$K(B40$B:P0J>e$NJ}$N$_$H$5$;$FD:$-$^$9!#(B $B-"!!CK=w6&$K$*Aj$NCO0h!&%a!<%k%"%I%l%9!&%Q%9%o!<%I$r(B $B@_Dj$7$FD:$-$^$9!#(B $B-"!!$9$k$*Aj%"%I%l%9$,I=<($5$l$F$*$j$^$9$N$G(B $B$=$N;~E@$GD>@\$4O"Mm$r$7$FD:$$$F$b7k9=$G$9$7!"(B $B%5%$%HFb$+$i%a!<%k$K$FO"Mm$rD$7$F2<$5$$!#(B $B!ZCm0U![<+8J(BPR$BFb$KO"Mm@h$NI=<($,L5$$?M:J!&=O=w$5$s$O(B $B!!!!!!!!8r>D$,@.N)$7FyBN4X78Cf$G$9$N$GO"Mm@h$NI=<($,(B $B!!!!!!!!I|3h8e!":FEY8r>D$r$*4j$$CW$7$^$9!#(B $B(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(B $B!|K\F|!"CO85$N%*%P%5%s$HFyBN4X78$r4uK>$5$l$kCK@-$O(B $B!!(Bhttp://dpopd.com:112/02/1334 $B!|K\F|!"2P>H$C$?BN$rK~$?$7$FM_$7$$%*%P%5%s$O(B $B!!(Bhttp://dpopd.com:112/02/1334 $B(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(B $B!zBT9g$o$;$N>l=j$r%j%"%k%?%$%`$G$d$j Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HtUFw-00017l-AV for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2007 15:54:52 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HtUFu-0008HO-Pv for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2007 15:54:52 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4UJSwUI077050 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 30 May 2007 12:28:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4UJSw8a077049; Wed, 30 May 2007 12:28:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chilco.textdrive.com (chilco.textdrive.com [207.7.108.242]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4UJSv7k077041 for ; Wed, 30 May 2007 12:28:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: from [192.168.2.180] (83-71-68-243.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net [83.71.68.243]) by chilco.textdrive.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B94B5DCC00 for ; Wed, 30 May 2007 19:28:56 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <465DD076.4060603@dehora.net> Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 20:28:54 +0100 From: Bill de hOra User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (X11/20070403) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Order of Entries within a Feed References: <249DC7180F301445BCA2E01EAAFDF40903FE92E9@emss04m05.us.lmco.com> <20070523201109.GB8531@klangraum> <15210512179.20070524004104@djpowell.net> <20070524001827.GE32599@klangraum> In-Reply-To: <20070524001827.GE32599@klangraum> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a A. Pagaltzis wrote: > * David Powell [2007-05-24 02:05]: >> Wednesday, May 23, 2007, 9:11:09 PM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: >>> A client could then use this optional information, where it >>> is present, in order to optimise its processing. >>> RFC 4287 itself makes no such provision, though. >> ... and there is no guarantee that such an extension would >> work, because by overriding RFC4287s assertion that a feed is >> unordered, the extension would effectively have mustUnderstand >> semantics, which Atom doesn't support. mU doesn't begin to cover what's needed to support forward compatibility. mU provides a means to crash already deployed code; that's it. > How so? Pure RFC 4287 implementations would process the entire > feed as usual. Clients which understand the extension could skip > some of the processing based on the order of the entries. I see > no change in feed semantics that would affect oblivious clients. Exactly. Not having to understand random markup is a *feature*. Atom doesn't have the the uniform semantics needed to make as yet non-existent "extensions" understandable. *By design* it's not Lisp; it's not even RDF. [This is why I say xmlns provides modularity, not extension.] cheers Bill From naoki8962@eyou.com Thu May 31 06:07:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HthZ3-00075y-9m for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 31 May 2007 06:07:29 -0400 Received: from [58.143.153.72] (helo=SPK02.localdomain) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HthZ2-00032G-RS for atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 31 May 2007 06:07:29 -0400 Received: by SPK02.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 48) id 06B52256711; Thu, 31 May 2007 18:35:01 +0900 (KST) To: atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCQ084NSROJSolUCU1JXMkckp6JC0kPyQkJEckOSQrISklbCVZGyhC?= =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCJWskT0RjJCQkRyQ5JCwzTjxCJEtKeiQxJF4kOSRoGyhCISE=?= From: Resent-Sender: naoki8962@eyou.com Message-ID: <20070531183501.68798@eyou.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-Id: <20070531093501.06B52256711@SPK02.localdomain> Resent-Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 18:35:01 +0900 (KST) Resent-From: naoki8962@eyou.com (Apache) X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: e1b0e72ff1bbd457ceef31828f216a86 $B!&!&!&!E!E!D!D(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,(,!D!D!E!E!&!&!&(B $BFyBN4X78@lLg%3%_%e%K%F%#!<(B!$B:#$9$0CO85$N%[%F%k$XD>9T3Ne@lMQ!@!!(B $B(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(B $BEv%5%$%H$O(B40$BBe!A(B50$BBe$NFyBN4X78$r5a$a$F$$$k?M:J!&=O=w(B $B$,=8$^$kF|K\:GBg$NFyBN4X78%3%_%e%K%F%#!<%5%$%H$G$9!#(B $B(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(B $B!T$4MxMQ$K4X$7$F$N$4Cm0U!U(B $B-!!!$4MxMQ$OCK=w6&$K(B40$B:P0J>e$NJ}$N$_$H$5$;$FD:$-$^$9!#(B $B-"!!CK=w6&$K$*Aj$NCO0h!&%a!<%k%"%I%l%9!&%Q%9%o!<%I$r(B $B@_Dj$7$FD:$-$^$9!#(B $B-"!!$9$k$*Aj%"%I%l%9$,I=<($5$l$F$*$j$^$9$N$G(B $B$=$N;~E@$GD>@\$4O"Mm$r$7$FD:$$$F$b7k9=$G$9$7!"(B $B%5%$%HFb$+$i%a!<%k$K$FO"Mm$rD$7$F2<$5$$!#(B $B!ZCm0U![<+8J(BPR$BFb$KO"Mm@h$NI=<($,L5$$?M:J!&=O=w$5$s$O(B $B!!!!!!!!8r>D$,@.N)$7FyBN4X78Cf$G$9$N$GO"Mm@h$NI=<($,(B $B!!!!!!!!I|3h8e!":FEY8r>D$r$*4j$$CW$7$^$9!#(B $B(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(B $B!|K\F|!"CO85$N%*%P%5%s$HFyBN4X78$r4uK>$5$l$kCK@-$O(B $B!!(Bhttp://dpopd.com:112/01/1302 $B!|K\F|!"2P>H$C$?BN$rK~$?$7$FM_$7$$%*%P%5%s$O(B $B!!(Bhttp://dpopd.com:112/01/1302 $B(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(,(!(B $B!zBT9g$o$;$N>l=j$r%j%"%k%?%$%`$G$d$j