From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Wed Apr  2 03:09:34 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA6933A6DC0
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Wed,  2 Apr 2008 03:09:34 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.599
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id fvMVxbPe32JU
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Wed,  2 Apr 2008 03:09:32 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1EF83A6DEB
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Wed,  2 Apr 2008 03:09:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m329p5PU034767
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Wed, 2 Apr 2008 02:51:05 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m329p5Z7034766;
	Wed, 2 Apr 2008 02:51:05 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com (wf-out-1314.google.com [209.85.200.169])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m329p3rX034759
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 02:51:04 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from erlingwl@gmail.com)
Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 28so2404165wff.28
        for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 02 Apr 2008 02:51:03 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=beta;
        h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition;
        bh=WUr8WUKU2mYtIExvebX/V6Gz3AoyjcoADn8iKvZnX9A=;
        b=YOyb+WSt/JC9JvPZ/i6+CZT7aF/EJHEh7sJo3A8uF1/Vri6nTndQseid6ahaVqnXDwO17RcL7bxOj6+q8xSrSVh3yd7VOZUTDvLY0HICzCrjMGO0b4A7ZQslYIwoJo1l2eFohkjPNE1h+FHrgdRuA+y0VuFeKJBD/n/Xv+nLRw0=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=beta;
        h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition;
        b=iFx1wabQf/5c6Vv+YDwoaBAUvC25lz5vL7jyXX1xWkkg5H9vTuFsjVENIvVJRsRF10I7+2tU4TDPdHU26r/mKmY0dMwB9jQt5cbCyuhow1N5K2Vrr/bboCNUWU8uHKk73M5LDlQsbm9asyDFe1dHQqK+QBj6LrrutvMqEQO9k8I=
Received: by 10.142.178.13 with SMTP id a13mr5741846wff.51.1207129863557;
        Wed, 02 Apr 2008 02:51:03 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.142.223.6 with HTTP; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 02:51:03 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <9f0578290804020251h73b503f0i8a85039c52932c39@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:51:03 +0200
From: "Erling Wegger Linde" <erlingwl@gmail.com>
To: atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Content type - and content negotiation
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>


Hi,

I am using APP with ROME. I wonder if it is correct that the APP
standard supports "text/plain", "application/xml",
"application/rdf+xml" etc. in the <content type=""> - or just "text",
"xml" etc. as I think the current version of ROME supports now.

If it supports <content type="everything"> I am glad, this means that
the server could understand different content formats POSTed or PUT to
the server on the same edit uri.

However, I wonder if there are any other way to allow content
negotiation of the format of the content type than using <link
rel="N3" type="text/n3" url="otherurl">. It seems to me that the
downside of using APP as a Web Service Protocol is that it is not as
HTTP-linked as I thought. I guess the HTTP Accept header is already
used for "application/atom+xml" so is there any other way than the
<link..> approach? Any other HTTP headers that could be used? Could
you specify "application/xml" as the second preferred data format, and
would it be logical to let the server use this to decide which format
to serve in the content?

Do you agree that this is a weakness of the APP, or are there some
clever workaround / best practices regarding this issue?

Thanks, Erling



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Fri Apr  4 13:28:21 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2F133A6B0F
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Fri,  4 Apr 2008 13:28:21 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.977
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id SyAk7t1D6vow
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Fri,  4 Apr 2008 13:28:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 834063A6839
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Fri,  4 Apr 2008 13:28:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m34KEiZN037278
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Fri, 4 Apr 2008 13:14:44 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m34KEi5I037277;
	Fri, 4 Apr 2008 13:14:44 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.155])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m34KEgrM037262
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 4 Apr 2008 13:14:43 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from joe.gregorio@gmail.com)
Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 22so184076fge.26
        for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 04 Apr 2008 13:14:35 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:x-google-sender-auth;
        bh=C8ljy2Z8/peS2E0wnl5YVTF/27ps3WE6Lsvfdas8hmM=;
        b=htBjicR6+o2NQgBOK5GQDKeSNMtbu09PJ9JZoumDsevK01iy6UG/MeiF66X2urFBf6+2GZjGxFl7qrekAZFOXESPHJaYQ6YuxyhyRR0oqQdHtFE3nyceeKgSAHoTwk1MGQ3BhUM9MbrvsLQwlh0HigqBleo6FesQdfjwQ6hsDoM=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:x-google-sender-auth;
        b=QXxvc3cKWMpVUIWOCdjwF2EQ0gaxNhusI64iVtTejVy6v9AYLSUDfXlPWbJpl8qRRz5GOnCZgfcQLdcwucIc/UjEH+sY/Dl+B9EjAK651p7XHfmWOn0kOYZ+0MK7UWET+UUnOKXDVERnPfF6rkT2gSQBugxwFifHtdhZ3zWzl7o=
Received: by 10.86.51.2 with SMTP id y2mr1045279fgy.50.1207340074826;
        Fri, 04 Apr 2008 13:14:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.86.93.13 with HTTP; Fri, 4 Apr 2008 13:14:34 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <3f1451f50804041314u156cec58i5b672e621c12e626@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 16:14:34 -0400
From: "Joe Gregorio" <joe@bitworking.org>
To: "Atom Protocol" <atom-protocol@imc.org>, Atom-Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: Google IPR Statement
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
X-Google-Sender-Auth: 408d1c611198479a
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>


Google has made an IRP Statement with respect to the Atom Syndication Format
and the Atom Publishing Protocol. You can see the IPR statement here:

   https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/942/

In addition the same statement has been published with respect to Google's
extensions to Atom and AtomPub:

   http://googledataapis.blogspot.com/2008/04/google-data-apis-patent-license.html

   Thanks,
   -joe

-- 
Joe Gregorio http://bitworking.org



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Mon Apr  7 20:12:49 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3D203A684C
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Mon,  7 Apr 2008 20:12:48 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -3.599
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id PtzQEvGUyPz3
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Mon,  7 Apr 2008 20:12:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41E243A6767
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Mon,  7 Apr 2008 20:12:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3831VXL081986
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Mon, 7 Apr 2008 20:01:31 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3831VmS081984;
	Mon, 7 Apr 2008 20:01:31 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [216.86.168.178])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3831UTm081977
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO)
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 20:01:31 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from brian@briansmith.org)
Received: from T60 (unknown [70.132.140.211])
	(using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits))
	(No client certificate requested)
	by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90D9823E3AB;
	Mon,  7 Apr 2008 23:01:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Brian Smith" <brian@briansmith.org>
To: "'Erling Wegger Linde'" <erlingwl@gmail.com>, <atom-syntax@imc.org>
References: <9f0578290804020251h73b503f0i8a85039c52932c39@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Content type - and content negotiation
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 20:01:28 -0700
Message-ID: <002301c89924$d8166d80$0302a8c0@T60>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11
In-Reply-To: <9f0578290804020251h73b503f0i8a85039c52932c39@mail.gmail.com>
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198
Thread-Index: AciUqCvHEoInKGJ0SA6ZJq2tyRvkkAEezDiw
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>


Erling wrote:
> If it supports <content type="everything"> I am glad, this means that
> the server could understand different content formats POSTed or PUT to
> the server on the same edit uri.

If you POST anything besides application/atom+xml, then the entry will
(probably) be a media-link entry, which looks like:

      <content src='document.txt' type='text/plain'/>

If you post an Atom entry, you can post something like this:

      <content type='text/plain'>Document content goes here.</content>

> However, I wonder if there are any other way to allow content
> negotiation of the format of the content type than using <link
> rel="N3" type="text/n3" url="otherurl">.

Usually, you link to alternate representations using:
   <link rel='alternate' type='text/n3' url='otherurl'/>
Or just:
   <link type='text/n3' url='otherurl'/>
Since 'alternate' is the default link type.

> It seems to me that the downside of using APP as a Web Service
> Protocol is that it is not as HTTP-linked as I thought.

> Do you agree that this is a weakness of the APP, or are there some
> clever workaround / best practices regarding this issue?

RFC 5023 specifically avoids specifying if/when/how HTTP content
negotiation is integrated into AtomPub. If you need to do HTTP content
negotiation, then you should usually ensure that the server
automatically derives all the variants from whatever representation the
client POSTs/PUTs, and you should usually expose the multiple variants
only at the publishing side, not the editing side. That way, whatever
AtomPub clients you use will not have to deal with the content
negotiation at all.

- Brian



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Wed Apr  9 12:02:38 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C73A3A6F0D
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Wed,  9 Apr 2008 12:02:38 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.121
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.121 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, WHOIS_DMNBYPROXY=0.478]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id FNj9-ZTYEhpk
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Wed,  9 Apr 2008 12:02:37 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C940728C4C5
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Wed,  9 Apr 2008 12:02:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m39IpRA4083842
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Wed, 9 Apr 2008 11:51:27 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m39IpR43083841;
	Wed, 9 Apr 2008 11:51:27 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from ti-out-0910.google.com (ti-out-0910.google.com [209.85.142.190])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m39IpOXd083830
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 9 Apr 2008 11:51:26 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from benramsey.lists@gmail.com)
Received: by ti-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id a6so1265151tib.22
        for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 09 Apr 2008 11:51:23 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=cakI5GzUgJg8orPjC9+xTQEvhH1M84DJG70uIHc1kRo=;
        b=sJNKpKXi83y1Mvd+XssoCF1BK9Th+WElJxZUd/VA1j/5KxVRzDJ8CCSg0SzxyStzW5+7yMi03v04jnfH/f0Gs/Ze1YEgti6U+h+oOPwuFk7JqjoA5VjFS/HWLqGbRExCpoM/regjl+szytN037obLl5VaFtk6PiOm9dTcoxMz+s=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        b=wZGLGSWVnYJr36byoH0ONUQBFKTr3CglrspfKfxRxCA4BTaFIXYpcsUqd84NdOMervknDYHxJHOUJiTT0QnYEUWzaV3UMWYHZeyrIt+Rd2sux3hBTgCecXViP3rRBD4mLR2wYUfNHrLtxbCu3CcNDvz/8w0QkfRKWT2G7KdNlWQ=
Received: by 10.151.141.16 with SMTP id t16mr736631ybn.239.1207767082438;
        Wed, 09 Apr 2008 11:51:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from samwise.local ( [209.155.232.242])
        by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 3sm805570wrs.22.2008.04.09.11.51.20
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5);
        Wed, 09 Apr 2008 11:51:21 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <47FD1073.1050606@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 14:52:35 -0400
From: Ben Ramsey <benramsey.lists@gmail.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1.12) Gecko/20080213 Thunderbird/2.0.0.12 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: Testing clients/suites?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>


Anyone know of any good AtomPub testing clients or suites that are extensible 
enough to accommodate foreign mark-up? Specifically, I'm wondering if any are 
flexible enough for me to add extra business rules for the foreign mark-up I'm 
using.

I need something for our QA department to use as they test our AtomPub API.

I've looked at things like http://www.witha.jp/eXeries/software/, but this isn't 
flexible enough, though this is definitely the style of tool I'm looking for 
since it would be easy for our QA folks to use.

Any pointers would be very helpful. Thanks in advance!

-- 
Ben Ramsey
http://benramsey.com/



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Wed Apr  9 12:24:45 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 502E828C1C0
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Wed,  9 Apr 2008 12:24:45 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.121
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.121 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, WHOIS_DMNBYPROXY=0.478]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id Fov426G+Jg2s
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Wed,  9 Apr 2008 12:24:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F417C3A6B4E
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Wed,  9 Apr 2008 12:24:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m39JIenq086043
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Wed, 9 Apr 2008 12:18:40 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m39JIemc086042;
	Wed, 9 Apr 2008 12:18:40 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from yw-out-1718.google.com (yw-out-1718.google.com [74.125.46.154])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m39JIdbP086036
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 9 Apr 2008 12:18:40 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from erlingwl@gmail.com)
Received: by yw-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 5so535776ywm.4
        for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 09 Apr 2008 12:18:25 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references;
        bh=+b5lrntpZL9Dvjw9mdInFYwmneulR173K9Hdn/cNlqU=;
        b=x5vs9bZVAkh7luI8G1mVc4mOwmC5MNHK96GaszHCE19QbQf0ZTSfMF/zOAtly5DVgPwuEYEgMc9LyXJTDWFnE6UeVcm90ANrkafb534whw8FmiSLbXqo46E9FpJ5XEqDiMPM5mWap/bpyKLtJ1Ktv4GkaxxW40Vf6PUKWjVcs9g=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references;
        b=nA6C8ouitRM0SjOcN3QRQoGV9jgIrMqpGBq9XGdMROapoizfffQBo0+QQ4Zv076bgM4YOATH4SuITVTKnNNCB3PqMEQlalZ5O4r+RMUHiCy6ob+22MDZ6naUFOA20ExSLqwHgo7g/ixBEO2+AT0UhFbf6oSvgaVVqmlG7+/R9BU=
Received: by 10.142.44.11 with SMTP id r11mr150687wfr.13.1207768704010;
        Wed, 09 Apr 2008 12:18:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.142.223.6 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Apr 2008 12:18:23 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <9f0578290804091218p743c055bvaa835a4257b9fff@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 21:18:23 +0200
From: "Erling Wegger Linde" <erlingwl@gmail.com>
To: "Ben Ramsey" <benramsey.lists@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Testing clients/suites?
Cc: "Atom Syntax" <atom-syntax@imc.org>
In-Reply-To: <47FD1073.1050606@gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
References: <47FD1073.1050606@gmail.com>
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>


Have you looked at https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3188

I'm not sure if it is flexible enough for you, but it's at least
another alternative to look at =)

- Erling



On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 8:52 PM, Ben Ramsey <benramsey.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Anyone know of any good AtomPub testing clients or suites that are
> extensible enough to accommodate foreign mark-up? Specifically, I'm
> wondering if any are flexible enough for me to add extra business rules for
> the foreign mark-up I'm using.
>
>  I need something for our QA department to use as they test our AtomPub API.
>
>  I've looked at things like http://www.witha.jp/eXeries/software/, but this
> isn't flexible enough, though this is definitely the style of tool I'm
> looking for since it would be easy for our QA folks to use.
>
>  Any pointers would be very helpful. Thanks in advance!
>
>  --
>  Ben Ramsey
>  http://benramsey.com/
>
>



-- 
Med vennlig hilsen
Erling Wegger Linde



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Fri Apr 11 11:56:21 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B6383A6AF1
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:56:21 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.599
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id oo46VIOJQq8B
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:56:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02DCA3A6C84
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:56:19 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3BIm7mh016736
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:48:07 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3BIm7fL016735;
	Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:48:07 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.180])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3BIm5Xo016729
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:48:06 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com)
Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id a25so695222pyi.11
        for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:48:01 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=+tkwWw93YLSNGVM6rSdh4MzLbydjHKSCtiBDWaQmIsM=;
        b=lANSZpASoGTNoBQVLkfMANgpswEz3i9znMBa7Yd23RuE2rJN4uXxhBSB2DSUkXhrSJWNzCK7KpBgVZu4REfbJrDitqpCz+Uek/xTForN/c5khpgd7Iha+99GCHM3aPYKYTn7fmtDq1sU7ti+BgB2zZhVUzlvOTdrA7XoX+n21GY=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        b=jS73YNXmkRGkYG1GMN0la4n7cEoux4dyZ0/vcGkscI3iDYg0La/gOAg9kYwSHbKYJ2Pf9W7XiwbewTZFTEwzwvNHfpYyRQXaRliMns8j2ciaWBjKQL5T1/bUPo3TtsF5dPdm6YUaZWZ4avsnIdAbokJSCH6k4oo0Vz2gUa6JkaI=
Received: by 10.35.77.3 with SMTP id e3mr5525402pyl.7.1207939680485;
        Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:48:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?192.168.2.2? ( [67.181.217.27])
        by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y78sm7977611pyg.17.2008.04.11.11.47.57
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5);
        Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:47:59 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <47FFB25B.8070200@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:47:55 -0700
From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080227)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: atom-syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: Atom Bidi Draft Last Call
X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>


The Atom Bidi draft [1] has entered last call.  I posted an updated 
version of the draft today indicating "Experimental" status rather than 
"Standards Track".  The draft is currently implemented by Apache Abdera 
and the Lotus Connections Blogs component.  Additional implementation 
and feedback are requested.

- James

[1] http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-bidi-06.txt



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Sun Apr 13 12:59:02 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8287728C2A5
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Sun, 13 Apr 2008 12:59:02 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.976
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id AtjA1d0ZpgHo
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Sun, 13 Apr 2008 12:59:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 789F928C2A1
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Sun, 13 Apr 2008 12:59:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3DJo1Dd011945
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Sun, 13 Apr 2008 12:50:01 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3DJo1uD011944;
	Sun, 13 Apr 2008 12:50:01 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from yw-out-1718.google.com (yw-out-1718.google.com [74.125.46.153])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3DJo0GJ011927
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 13 Apr 2008 12:50:01 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from bobwyman@gmail.com)
Received: by yw-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 5so487522ywm.4
        for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 13 Apr 2008 12:50:00 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth;
        bh=E0mPFbgakmwRaq/P1hA9Fxo3uG61w0tZ3Vj0mueUrtU=;
        b=g17aK9dOpCsCo5Z8EVnXAYUHdxYYC1SsyZCcOrQ6AzroxB3Il5ezeP0PHi37Myu1gguaWQr6ku0AB2dy1kyzt2W8KcisHyeGX2iqRBpnF3OdElC9nmy4WMEXAQLJaaQYmQmajIUyfVasd2x60U4mIwz/uDMBhwzB6yOnmpxBL+E=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth;
        b=CPuf1cu/g+F1WMKMtBzdGZG/A3J6tRSi5XrE0coI3p5Mlx/sGCPZfp5Yz/NaSIi2zD2+sN8LbU5HJaxZWEGufdUEs4G7cxcnqKw8JQ1RtNAIdhvrTZ+74QPdb/mQUbqtEITj6G0bhHLbfxy+ePmrhUzJWOBAmg5N+uJzSJ+iFm8=
Received: by 10.150.98.18 with SMTP id v18mr5402489ybb.10.1208116200046;
        Sun, 13 Apr 2008 12:50:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.150.95.15 with HTTP; Sun, 13 Apr 2008 12:50:00 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <45be5cd40804131250q4dc2360aheaf127a829060ad1@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 15:50:00 -0400
From: "Bob Wyman" <bob@wyman.us>
To: "Atom WG" <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: Twitter publishes Atom Entries over Jabber PubSub
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 
	boundary="----=_Part_39613_24570350.1208116200031"
X-Google-Sender-Auth: 413697dc507370aa
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>


------=_Part_39613_24570350.1208116200031
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Twitter has just started publishing Atom Entries over Jabber PubSub
(XEP-0060) links. See:
http://groups.google.com/group/twitter-development-talk/web/jabber-pubsub

bob wyman

------=_Part_39613_24570350.1208116200031
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Twitter has just started publishing Atom Entries over Jabber PubSub (XEP-0060) links. See:<br><a href="http://groups.google.com/group/twitter-development-talk/web/jabber-pubsub">http://groups.google.com/group/twitter-development-talk/web/jabber-pubsub</a><br>
<br>bob wyman<br><br>

------=_Part_39613_24570350.1208116200031--



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Sun Apr 13 22:02:21 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B48B3A6989
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Sun, 13 Apr 2008 22:02:21 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.599
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id ajVpugI9n9fZ
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Sun, 13 Apr 2008 22:02:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E996D3A696E
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Sun, 13 Apr 2008 22:02:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3E4rmem043062
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Sun, 13 Apr 2008 21:53:48 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3E4rmo8043061;
	Sun, 13 Apr 2008 21:53:48 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from dizzyd.com (dizzyd.com [207.210.219.225])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3E4rihI043051
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 13 Apr 2008 21:53:46 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from stpeter@stpeter.im)
Received: from dialup-4.227.235.171.Dial1.Denver1.Level3.net (dialup-4.227.235.171.Dial1.Denver1.Level3.net [4.227.235.171])
	(Authenticated sender: stpeter)
	by dizzyd.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2BE604006D;
	Sun, 13 Apr 2008 22:52:28 -0600 (MDT)
Message-ID: <4802E347.4090600@stpeter.im>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 22:53:27 -0600
From: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1.12) Gecko/20080213 Thunderbird/2.0.0.12 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Bob Wyman <bob@wyman.us>
CC: Atom WG <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: Re: Twitter publishes Atom Entries over Jabber PubSub
References: <45be5cd40804131250q4dc2360aheaf127a829060ad1@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <45be5cd40804131250q4dc2360aheaf127a829060ad1@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms020301030003010805050000"
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>


This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format.

--------------ms020301030003010805050000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Bob Wyman wrote:
> Twitter has just started publishing Atom Entries over Jabber PubSub
> (XEP-0060) links. See:
> http://groups.google.com/group/twitter-development-talk/web/jabber-pubsub

I suppose it's time for us to finish our work on the Atom-Over-XMPP I-D!

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/


--------------ms020301030003010805050000
Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s"
Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
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--------------ms020301030003010805050000--



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Mon Apr 14 14:09:02 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D011C28C358
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:09:02 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.199
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_43=0.6,
	J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id rsTspgS3paJn
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:09:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 503E528C35A
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:09:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3EKvlrV032493
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Mon, 14 Apr 2008 13:57:48 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3EKvlqW032492;
	Mon, 14 Apr 2008 13:57:47 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from relay-1.mailobj.net (relay-1.mailobj.net [195.234.90.136])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3EKvkNd032486
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 13:57:47 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com)
Received: from netcourrier.com (webmail-2.in.mailobj.net [192.168.90.139])
	by relay-1.mailobj.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 900B1478E4;
	Mon, 14 Apr 2008 22:57:28 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from [89.2.186.89] by webmail-2.netcourrier.com via html interface
From: Nicolas Krebs <nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com>
To: atom-syntax@imc.org
Cc: public-i18n-its-ig@w3.org
Subject: Re: Atom Bidi Draft Last Call
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 22:56:51 +0200
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Medianet/v2.0
Message-Id: <mnet1.1208206611.7675.nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>


>Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:47:55 -0700
>From: James M Snell <jasnell=40gmail.com>
>To: atom-syntax <atom-syntax=40imc.org>
>Subject: Atom Bidi Draft Last Call

>The Atom Bidi draft =5B1=5D has entered last call.  I posted an updated =

>version of the draft today indicating =22Experimental=22 status rather th=
an =

>=22Standards Track=22.  The draft is currently implemented by Apache Abde=
ra =

>and the Lotus Connections Blogs component.  Additional implementation =

>and feedback are requested.
>
>- James
>
>=5B1=5D http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-bidi-06.t=
xt

i.e.
urn:ietf:id:draft-snell-atompub-bidi-06
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-snell-atompub-bidi-06


Editorial comments. You could add =

- http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/REC-its-20070403/=23directionality as =

informative references, in Section 5.2 =

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-snell-atompub-bidi-06=23section-5.2
- Why create atom:dir instead of re-use its:dir (in a Rationale section). =

- What are the differences between atom:dir and its:dir . =



others references/see also
- the various discussions (including =

http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg04474.html =

http://bitworking.org/news/Not=5FInvented=5FHere ) wich leaded/caused =

urn:ietf:rfc:4287 http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4287 to: =

  - create its own xml elements atom:author, atom:published, =

  atom:summary, and do not re-use dc: elements
  - do not create its own lang attribute and allow xml:dir
- my previous mail about this subject/topic =

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2006OctDec/0003.html=
 =

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2007AprJun/0017.html=
 =

- http://www.w3.org/blog/International/2008/03/26/internationalization=5Ft=
ag=5Fset=5Finterest=5Fgr
http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/




From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Mon Apr 14 21:37:58 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B94393A6843
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:37:58 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.399
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_43=0.6,
	RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id YxajD4eozhoB
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:37:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFFC93A69FC
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:37:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3F4RnvQ065734
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:27:49 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3F4RnAT065733;
	Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:27:49 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [216.86.168.178])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3F4Rl17065725
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO)
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:27:48 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from brian@briansmith.org)
Received: from T60 (unknown [70.141.124.122])
	(using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits))
	(No client certificate requested)
	by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFAD223E3E7;
	Tue, 15 Apr 2008 00:27:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Brian Smith" <brian@briansmith.org>
To: "'Nicolas Krebs'" <nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com>, <atom-syntax@imc.org>
References: <mnet1.1208206611.7675.nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com>
Subject: RE: Atom Bidi Draft Last Call
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:27:47 -0700
Message-ID: <005401c89eb1$100656b0$0302a8c0@T60>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11
In-Reply-To: <mnet1.1208206611.7675.nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com>
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198
Thread-Index: Aciecwal5GpKN0i1RbC0cc7JW6xx9wANcUvg
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>


Nicolas Krebs wrote:
> James Snell wrote:
> >The Atom Bidi draft [1] has entered last call.  I posted an updated 
> >version of the draft today indicating "Experimental" status 
> > rather than "Standards Track".  The draft is currently implemented
> > by Apache Abdera and the Lotus Connections Blogs component.
> > Additional implementation and feedback are requested.

James,

Do you know of any publically-available Atom documents in BIDI languages
that would benefit from this extension? The example in the draft does
not seem to benefit from the extension; AFAICT, the text in the examples
is comprised of pure Arabic text, which is strongly RTL, so the Unicode
BIDI algorithm should work fine. I searched for some before, and I found
a few Hebrew and one Arabic Atom document, but none of them would have
benefited from this extension, AFAICT.

> Editorial comments. You could add 
> - http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/REC-its-20070403/#directionality as 
> informative references, in Section 5.2 
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-snell-atompub-bidi-06#section-5.2
> - Why create atom:dir instead of re-use its:dir (in a 
> Rationale section). 
> - What are the differences between atom:dir and its:dir . 

I agree, these are the first questions I had when reading the previous
drafts.

The draft says 'Implementers are reminded that unexpected results could
occur when using both the "dir" attribute and the Unicode control
characters within a single document.' What are the expected results?

Regards,
Brian



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Tue Apr 15 17:53:46 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 891FA3A6C0C
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:53:46 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.599
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id FrrzOSwEl6+i
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:53:45 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6295C3A6EE6
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:53:45 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3G0hiQL069284
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:43:44 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3G0hihD069283;
	Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:43:44 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from [10.20.30.162] (dsl-63-249-108-169.cruzio.com [63.249.108.169])
	(authenticated bits=0)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3G0hgxU069277
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO)
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:43:43 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from phoffman@imc.org)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <p0624081ec42afbfd2f05@[10.20.30.162]>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:43:40 -0700
To: Atom WG <atom-syntax@imc.org>
From: Paul Hoffman <phoffman@imc.org>
Subject: Fwd: secdir review of draft-snell-atompub-bidi-06
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>


>From: "David Harrington" <ietfdbh@comcast.net>
>To: <secdir-secretary@mit.edu>, <iesg@ietf.org>, <lisa@osafoundation.org>,
>         "'IETF Discussion'" <ietf@ietf.org>
>Subject: secdir review of draft-snell-atompub-bidi-06
>Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:11:11 -0700
>X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11
>thread-index: AcicP4xAEql3hBnfTzalGQ9Wp83xJwDE3M2g
>Cc: paul.hoffman@vpnc.org, tbray@textuality.com, mnot@pobox.com,
>         rfsayre@boswijck.com
>X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
>X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
>List-Id: IETF Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
>List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>,
>	<mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
>List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
>List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>,
>	<mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
>Sender: ietf-bounces@ietf.org
>
>I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's
>ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the
>IESG.  These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the
>security area directors.  Document editors and WG chairs should treat
>these comments just like any other last call comments.
>
>draft-snell-atompub-bidi-06 is a very short document and adds an
>experimental attribute to the atom syndication format to indicate
>whether text should be presented left-to-right or right-to-left. This
>experimental approach would replace the current "direction guessing"
>heuristic approach.
>
>I see nothing that leads me to believe there is any additional
>security consideration that is not already discussed in the security
>considerations of RFC4287 "The Atom Syndication Protocol". RFC4287
>considers the HTML/XHTML content, URIs, IRIs, Spoofing, and encryption
>and digital signatures.
>
>David Harrington
>dbharrington@comcast.net
>ietfdbh@comcast.net
>dharrington@huawei.com



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Tue Apr 15 21:21:57 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF4D33A6838
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:21:57 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.399
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[AWL=-1.200, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6,
	J_CHICKENPOX_43=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id WkWZ4mWRMKkO
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:21:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DB4F3A67CC
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:21:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3G4DxiV084884
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:13:59 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3G4Dx0O084883;
	Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:13:59 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.176])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3G4DvUd084877
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:13:58 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com)
Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id a25so2531671pyi.11
        for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:13:56 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=COxI9kZMWu7UGzuEORH5wOtmRqBMHrez4wFz2DURtws=;
        b=jqC4m61cWxHXSOwG/U4jECeqKU5DADlPiNEJHmgxTNlB7Ey8+4KL70ERowSXFboKJVBNF3sl/1LJpJ70MyexOUAMSmpOqf1ZkmV0GiNBOoiUeptGQIEw4vzEIw+ff8uyindAF3oFITsaVo22dbKboo6m42GYILQwG/7FW/jsHnI=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        b=Gpgg5nzXjMTRLF3QX1u6B36mssqdAhr/scxJwlfmDKrLHVyjnAcjHPIHFbmbGgvA241Ffu+/MoFLSzGjBR27sBXErTpcGCs+vzdr2WXXJ3JRoOl4dHu1KpZNTBJ4KZqQW5ZgcJQEXOC8U0iDwpSxntWzI5Kzxl0MeEYBjbCOIkI=
Received: by 10.35.82.12 with SMTP id j12mr14459328pyl.6.1208319236378;
        Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:13:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?192.168.2.2? ( [67.181.217.27])
        by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id u2sm23450625pyb.27.2008.04.15.21.13.54
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5);
        Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:13:55 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <48057D00.3030103@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:13:52 -0700
From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080227)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Nicolas Krebs <nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com>
CC: atom-syntax@imc.org, public-i18n-its-ig@w3.org
Subject: Re: Atom Bidi Draft Last Call
References: <mnet1.1208206611.7675.nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com>
In-Reply-To: <mnet1.1208206611.7675.nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com>
X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>




Nicolas Krebs wrote:
> [snip]
> 
> Editorial comments. You could add 
> - http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/REC-its-20070403/#directionality as 
> informative references, in Section 5.2 
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-snell-atompub-bidi-06#section-5.2
> - Why create atom:dir instead of re-use its:dir (in a Rationale section). 
> - What are the differences between atom:dir and its:dir . 
> 

There's no reason to introduce the added complexity of ITS here.  I 
recognize that it's not a lot of added complexity, but ITS would add the 
need to support another new namespace and new MUST-level requirements 
that simply aren't needed.  Further, Atom bidi does not need the rlo and 
lro values to indicate bidi overrides and ITS does not provide a means 
of explicitly indicating that no base directionality has been set (e.g. 
dir="") which is an important case for feeds aggregating content from 
multiple sources.

- James

> 
> others references/see also
> - the various discussions (including 
> http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg04474.html 
> http://bitworking.org/news/Not_Invented_Here ) wich leaded/caused 
> urn:ietf:rfc:4287 http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4287 to: 
>   - create its own xml elements atom:author, atom:published, 
>   atom:summary, and do not re-use dc: elements
>   - do not create its own lang attribute and allow xml:dir
> - my previous mail about this subject/topic 
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2006OctDec/0003.html 
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2007AprJun/0017.html 
> - http://www.w3.org/blog/International/2008/03/26/internationalization_tag_set_interest_gr
> http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/
> 
> 
> 



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Tue Apr 15 21:24:30 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 334563A6838
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:24:30 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.599
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[AWL=-0.200, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6,
	J_CHICKENPOX_43=0.6]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id 0gvjgoTrZCZx
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:24:29 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15EA93A67CC
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:24:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3G4GZFt085013
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:16:35 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3G4GZfE085012;
	Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:16:35 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.176])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3G4GZg1085006
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:16:35 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com)
Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id a25so2532309pyi.11
        for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:16:35 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=XULQWHrl0x0KquNSmMeg4HZ2F/4NXvNA1wJHZkz7Mv4=;
        b=LtYnzyTygneC42SVtpUzwnnT36cwQ0FA9nYZx+gPrTDsMpCMhGg8vh+4UmAlZLrJ0XjLg0mv3tMTIaNDjlbFw9etGRBZOMYUzuSFuTFSj6xr25n04ahIokc0exfsY/JeiEamYR8k2miAKDMustGG4OWc5bSSRmLnCmI1qowDGos=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        b=OU1XpRN1h65XJJovm0YKh04gbGJszj1cm6WgazqWzwTRlSkvU+qlZ5TV3HqL3/sTstHL68eF32wAQH9TUetg+3yEzvFbcCQRvJo1AULmI5oOpcjv3nEeSlpyxGErdpb7ienAeoDwP7P4p0JA5kCjukJVOFRRDyOsPlLaT8Qw+LM=
Received: by 10.35.54.19 with SMTP id g19mr10237813pyk.1.1208319394881;
        Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:16:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?192.168.2.2? ( [67.181.217.27])
        by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y45sm11018723pyg.9.2008.04.15.21.16.32
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5);
        Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:16:33 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <48057D9F.2030008@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:16:31 -0700
From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080227)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Brian Smith <brian@briansmith.org>
CC: "'Nicolas Krebs'" <nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com>, atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: Atom Bidi Draft Last Call
References: <mnet1.1208206611.7675.nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com> <005401c89eb1$100656b0$0302a8c0@T60>
In-Reply-To: <005401c89eb1$100656b0$0302a8c0@T60>
X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>


I know of several feeds that could benefit from this but there's 
certainly not an extensive collection, currently... which is precisely 
why this is targeted for "Experimental" status rather than "Standards 
Track".  The idea is to get a stable specification out there and 
encourage folks to go forth and implement it.  As we learn more about 
internationalization issues in feeds, we can revisit this.  Experimental 
RFC's are a good thing :-)

- James

Brian Smith wrote:
> Nicolas Krebs wrote:
>> James Snell wrote:
>>> The Atom Bidi draft [1] has entered last call.  I posted an updated 
>>> version of the draft today indicating "Experimental" status 
>>> rather than "Standards Track".  The draft is currently implemented
>>> by Apache Abdera and the Lotus Connections Blogs component.
>>> Additional implementation and feedback are requested.
> 
> James,
> 
> Do you know of any publically-available Atom documents in BIDI languages
> that would benefit from this extension? The example in the draft does
> not seem to benefit from the extension; AFAICT, the text in the examples
> is comprised of pure Arabic text, which is strongly RTL, so the Unicode
> BIDI algorithm should work fine. I searched for some before, and I found
> a few Hebrew and one Arabic Atom document, but none of them would have
> benefited from this extension, AFAICT.
> 
>> Editorial comments. You could add 
>> - http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/REC-its-20070403/#directionality as 
>> informative references, in Section 5.2 
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-snell-atompub-bidi-06#section-5.2
>> - Why create atom:dir instead of re-use its:dir (in a 
>> Rationale section). 
>> - What are the differences between atom:dir and its:dir . 
> 
> I agree, these are the first questions I had when reading the previous
> drafts.
> 
> The draft says 'Implementers are reminded that unexpected results could
> occur when using both the "dir" attribute and the Unicode control
> characters within a single document.' What are the expected results?
> 
> Regards,
> Brian
> 
> 



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Wed Apr 16 05:55:29 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D3973A6B9F
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 05:55:29 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -3.599
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id 7+FwyPK3uZi2
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Wed, 16 Apr 2008 05:55:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5532028C420
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 05:55:26 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3GChxB1030132
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Wed, 16 Apr 2008 05:43:59 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3GChxsb030131;
	Wed, 16 Apr 2008 05:43:59 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [216.86.168.178])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3GChvNe030116
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO)
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 05:43:58 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from brian@briansmith.org)
Received: from T60 (unknown [70.255.141.50])
	(using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits))
	(No client certificate requested)
	by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18FC723E496;
	Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:43:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Brian Smith" <brian@briansmith.org>
To: "'James M Snell'" <jasnell@gmail.com>
Cc: "'Nicolas Krebs'" <nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com>, <atom-syntax@imc.org>
References: <mnet1.1208206611.7675.nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com> <005401c89eb1$100656b0$0302a8c0@T60> <48057D9F.2030008@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Atom Bidi Draft Last Call
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 05:43:53 -0700
Message-ID: <006d01c89fbf$8a221b00$0302a8c0@T60>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11
In-Reply-To: <48057D9F.2030008@gmail.com>
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198
Thread-Index: AcifeOxVfLrz8hDPQjqq00ZLU041TwARVCgg
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>


James M Snell wrote:
> I know of several feeds that could benefit from this but there's 
> certainly not an extensive collection, currently... which is 
> precisely why this is targeted for "Experimental" status
> rather than "Standards Track".  The idea is to get a stable
> specification out there and encourage folks to go forth
> and implement it.  As we learn more about internationalization
> issues in feeds, we can revisit this. Experimental RFC's are
> a good thing :-)

James,

Thanks for the reply. I was not trying to say "this sucks because nobody
needs it." I was saying that there are literally no examples available
that show how it is beneficial. Even the examples do not demonstrate the
usefulness of the mechanism; they use dir="rtl", but they would be
rendered the same even if the mechanism wasn't being used, because the
example BIDI text is 100% strongly RTL, right?

Regards,
Brian



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Wed Apr 16 06:41:49 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71B273A6D24
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 06:41:49 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.399
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[AWL=-1.200, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6,
	J_CHICKENPOX_37=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_43=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6,
	RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id 0wD3q+Bt1WXy
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Wed, 16 Apr 2008 06:41:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A82B3A6BB9
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 06:41:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3GDUVp1034474
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Wed, 16 Apr 2008 06:30:31 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3GDUVun034473;
	Wed, 16 Apr 2008 06:30:31 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [216.86.168.178])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3GDUTvP034467
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO)
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 06:30:30 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from brian@briansmith.org)
Received: from T60 (unknown [70.255.141.50])
	(using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits))
	(No client certificate requested)
	by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECB6B23E4A0;
	Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:30:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Brian Smith" <brian@briansmith.org>
To: "'James M Snell'" <jasnell@gmail.com>,
        "'Nicolas Krebs'" <nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com>
Cc: <atom-syntax@imc.org>, <public-i18n-its-ig@w3.org>
References: <mnet1.1208206611.7675.nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com> <48057D00.3030103@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Atom Bidi Draft Last Call
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 06:30:29 -0700
Message-ID: <007d01c89fc6$0aa055c0$0302a8c0@T60>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11
In-Reply-To: <48057D00.3030103@gmail.com>
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198
Thread-Index: AcifeLC7Q7MVPJKlTgejFgleUiBu6AARtzQg
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>


James M Snell wrote:
> Nicolas Krebs wrote:
> > Editorial comments. You could add 
> > - http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/REC-its-20070403/#directionality as 
> > informative references, in Section 5.2 
> > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-snell-atompub-bidi-06#section-5.2
> > - Why create atom:dir instead of re-use its:dir (in a 
> Rationale section). 
> > - What are the differences between atom:dir and its:dir . 
> > 
> 
> There's no reason to introduce the added complexity of ITS here.
> I recognize that it's not a lot of added complexity, but ITS 
> would add the need to support another new namespace and new

The new namespace actually solves a real problem with extension
elements:

  <entry xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom'
         xmlns:a='urn:foo:a'
         xmlns:b='urn:foo:b'>
     <a:x dir='RTL'>
         <b:x dir='LTR'/>
     </a:x>
     ...
  </entry>

How do you process the above document using the BIDI extension? It seems
that either the Atom BIDI extension cannot be used with extension
elements, or it reserves the "dir" attribute for every element in every
namespace. Reserving the "dir" attribute for every element in every
namespace is not realistic. If the Atom BIDI extension cannot be used
with extension elements, then we have to fall back to ITS for extension
elements.

> MUST-level requirements that simply aren't needed.

Assuming only local selection is to be supported, the only annoying
MUST-level requirement is that its:version must be present on the root
element of the document. Is there another requirement that you think it
troublesome.

> Further, Atom bidi does not need 
> the rlo and lro values to indicate bidi overrides

My understanding is that RLO and LRO are used in documents that describe
BIDI, so that those documents can provide examples of mis-renderings. I
don't know if there are other realistic uses of it. In any case, an Atom
processor already has to deal with RLO and LRO anyway, to support BDO in
(X)HTML.

> and ITS does not provide a means of explicitly indicating that no
> base directionality has been set (e.g. dir="") which is an
> important case for feeds aggregating content from multiple sources.

I don't think this is a problem. The producer of the aggregate feed just
has to be careful to not use its:dir in the atom:feed element (instead,
each feed metadata element can have its own its:dir as necessary), and
to copy the its:dir from the source feeds into each entry it extracts
from them (unless that entry already has its own its:dir). It is just
slightly different from the processing of the Atom BIDI extension.

Cheers,
Brian



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Wed Apr 16 07:25:59 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C74143A694E
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:25:59 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.649
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[AWL=-1.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6,
	J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_37=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_43=0.6,
	J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id 4lk7JpwQiV0O
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:25:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 023483A67F3
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:25:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3GEGZLW038744
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:16:36 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3GEGZDB038743;
	Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:16:35 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.183])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3GEGYQp038737
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:16:35 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com)
Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id a25so2726054pyi.11
        for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:16:32 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=lQCMOzIu0p78pAztsW84LnnhM19UdadLR/PIn3C8Q18=;
        b=jPq/mQ2Xi1gAkMNP+W1/R2PJsS8EEGKv1QXkXt7f1F4MkpPmIsV2VYf5jq+w9kuMlF/etppuvOMLLCN/6g8SH+m07kkntkK/mSamaMlMcKDJgqoOa2JxARB79YzX80wBTiPwSIXAblBzhgm7S8GPVWM55K62ZgaLKECuuwBZwVg=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        b=Zv4bZZiB7hAGxCO7TXhfXm1Yphv0A95oaelvt7NE2SexYe3pAHRb1B3DAGPB+H6JDxfYnGQR90k5QUrlHLvFJSEEVczba2Hvi7IFhKBSD3fuOMdNxTph95TctQXzrqJjBw1TDYbCKonejS4F+mwfd86EaLk8wkzGgZV3puDmCts=
Received: by 10.35.73.18 with SMTP id a18mr28097pyl.50.1208355391782;
        Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:16:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?192.168.2.2? ( [67.181.217.27])
        by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f57sm25113329pyh.6.2008.04.16.07.16.29
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5);
        Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:16:30 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <48060A3A.2000404@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:16:26 -0700
From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080227)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Brian Smith <brian@briansmith.org>
CC: "'Nicolas Krebs'" <nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com>, atom-syntax@imc.org,
        public-i18n-its-ig@w3.org
Subject: Re: Atom Bidi Draft Last Call
References: <mnet1.1208206611.7675.nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com> <48057D00.3030103@gmail.com> <007d01c89fc6$0aa055c0$0302a8c0@T60>
In-Reply-To: <007d01c89fc6$0aa055c0$0302a8c0@T60>
X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>




Brian Smith wrote:
> James M Snell wrote:
>> Nicolas Krebs wrote:
>>> Editorial comments. You could add 
>>> - http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/REC-its-20070403/#directionality as 
>>> informative references, in Section 5.2 
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-snell-atompub-bidi-06#section-5.2
>>> - Why create atom:dir instead of re-use its:dir (in a 
>> Rationale section). 
>>> - What are the differences between atom:dir and its:dir . 
>>>
>> There's no reason to introduce the added complexity of ITS here.
>> I recognize that it's not a lot of added complexity, but ITS 
>> would add the need to support another new namespace and new
> 
> The new namespace actually solves a real problem with extension
> elements:
> 
>   <entry xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom'
>          xmlns:a='urn:foo:a'
>          xmlns:b='urn:foo:b'>
>      <a:x dir='RTL'>
>          <b:x dir='LTR'/>
>      </a:x>
>      ...
>   </entry>
> 
> How do you process the above document using the BIDI extension? It seems
> that either the Atom BIDI extension cannot be used with extension
> elements, or it reserves the "dir" attribute for every element in every
> namespace. Reserving the "dir" attribute for every element in every
> namespace is not realistic. If the Atom BIDI extension cannot be used
> with extension elements, then we have to fall back to ITS for extension
> elements.
> 

It doesn't reserve the dir attribute in every namespace. The dir 
attribute has no namespace and there's little difference between it and 
the type attribute on the Atom Text Construct.

RFC 4287 defines the Atom Text Construct as an abstract type.  Within 
that element, there is a type attribute.  I can define that element 
x:foo is a text construct such that <x:foo 
type="html">&lt;p&gt;bar&lt;/p&gt;</x:foo> is a perfectly legal construct.

- James

>> MUST-level requirements that simply aren't needed.
> 
> Assuming only local selection is to be supported, the only annoying
> MUST-level requirement is that its:version must be present on the root
> element of the document. Is there another requirement that you think it
> troublesome.
> 
>> Further, Atom bidi does not need 
>> the rlo and lro values to indicate bidi overrides
> 
> My understanding is that RLO and LRO are used in documents that describe
> BIDI, so that those documents can provide examples of mis-renderings. I
> don't know if there are other realistic uses of it. In any case, an Atom
> processor already has to deal with RLO and LRO anyway, to support BDO in
> (X)HTML.
> 
>> and ITS does not provide a means of explicitly indicating that no
>> base directionality has been set (e.g. dir="") which is an
>> important case for feeds aggregating content from multiple sources.
> 
> I don't think this is a problem. The producer of the aggregate feed just
> has to be careful to not use its:dir in the atom:feed element (instead,
> each feed metadata element can have its own its:dir as necessary), and
> to copy the its:dir from the source feeds into each entry it extracts
> from them (unless that entry already has its own its:dir). It is just
> slightly different from the processing of the Atom BIDI extension.
> 
> Cheers,
> Brian
> 
> 



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Wed Apr 16 08:32:06 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25EEB3A6CE6
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:32:06 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.699
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.300,
	BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id ajbGyNeuhvM5
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:32:05 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F104E3A6C7F
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:32:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3GFKKcl044863
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:20:20 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3GFKKMX044862;
	Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:20:20 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [216.86.168.178])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3GFKIhS044851
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO)
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:20:19 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from brian@briansmith.org)
Received: from T60 (unknown [70.255.141.50])
	(using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits))
	(No client certificate requested)
	by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E082123E49E;
	Wed, 16 Apr 2008 11:20:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Brian Smith" <brian@briansmith.org>
To: "'James M Snell'" <jasnell@gmail.com>
Cc: "'Nicolas Krebs'" <nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com>, <atom-syntax@imc.org>,
        <public-i18n-its-ig@w3.org>
References: <mnet1.1208206611.7675.nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com> <48057D00.3030103@gmail.com> <007d01c89fc6$0aa055c0$0302a8c0@T60> <48060A3A.2000404@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Atom Bidi Draft Last Call
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:20:18 -0700
Message-ID: <00b401c89fd5$61c77090$0302a8c0@T60>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11
In-Reply-To: <48060A3A.2000404@gmail.com>
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198
Thread-Index: AcifzNQPWKiVK6UqQD6DyCPWrr7IaQAAc4eA
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>


James Snell wrote:
> It doesn't reserve the dir attribute in every namespace. The dir 
> attribute has no namespace and there's little difference 
> between it and the type attribute on the Atom Text Construct.
> 
> RFC 4287 defines the Atom Text Construct as an abstract type.  Within 
> that element, there is a type attribute.  I can define that element 
> x:foo is a text construct such that <x:foo 
> type="html">&lt;p&gt;bar&lt;/p&gt;</x:foo> is a perfectly 
> legal construct.

Of course. My point is that an extension cannot fully support the Atom
BIDI extension if it uses the "dir" attribute for some other purpose.
Further, an Atom processor cannot process the Atom BIDI extension for
extension elements that it has no knowledge of, because it has no way of
knowing what the "dir" attribute means for unknown extension elements.
ITS avoids those problems by defining better namespace support.

Regards,
Brian



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Wed Apr 16 15:01:54 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F125A28B797
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:01:54 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.399
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.200,
	BAYES_00=-2.599]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id F6RvxnpQjLtb
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:01:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B057828C1C1
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:01:53 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3GLpGaw079620
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Wed, 16 Apr 2008 14:51:16 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3GLpG6m079619;
	Wed, 16 Apr 2008 14:51:16 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from relay-2.mailobj.net (relay-2.mailobj.net [195.234.90.137])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3GLpDU2079611
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 14:51:13 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com)
Received: from netcourrier.com (webmail-2.in.mailobj.net [192.168.90.139])
	by relay-2.mailobj.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 9328C14CC4D;
	Wed, 16 Apr 2008 23:50:39 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from [89.2.186.89] by webmail-2.netcourrier.com via html interface
From: Nicolas Krebs <nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com>
To: atom-syntax@imc.org
Cc: www-international@w3.org
Subject: Re: Atom Bidi Draft Last Call
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 23:50:16 +0200
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Medianet/v2.0
Message-Id: <mnet1.1208382616.18814.nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>


>Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:47:55 -0700
>From: James M Snell <jasnell=40gmail.com>
>To: atom-syntax <atom-syntax=40imc.org>

>The Atom Bidi draft =5B1=5D has entered last call.  I posted an updated =

>version of the draft today =


http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-snell-atompub-bidi-06=23ref-UAX9
=7C   =5BUAX9=5D     Davis, M., =22Unicode Standard Annex =239: The Bidire=
ctional
=7C              Algorithm=22, September 2006.

editorial comment: =

- you could add http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr9/tr9-17.html
if it is the official uri

substantive comment: =

- you could update to http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr9/tr9-19.html
if it do not create any issue






From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Thu Apr 17 17:01:17 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15E093A6D65
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:01:17 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -8
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id O4hP81Lc07gH
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:01:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC61D3A6AC9
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:01:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3HNiUw5011307
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Thu, 17 Apr 2008 16:44:30 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3HNiUZH011306;
	Thu, 17 Apr 2008 16:44:30 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3HNiSvs011299
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO)
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 16:44:29 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from Joe.Cheng@microsoft.com)
Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.48) by
 TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft
 SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.240.5; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 16:44:28 -0700
Received: from NA-EXMSG-C109.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.155]) by
 TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Thu, 17
 Apr 2008 16:44:27 -0700
From: Joe Cheng <Joe.Cheng@microsoft.com>
To: Brian Smith <brian@briansmith.org>, "'James M Snell'" <jasnell@gmail.com>
CC: "'Nicolas Krebs'" <nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com>,
        "atom-syntax@imc.org"
	<atom-syntax@imc.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 16:44:26 -0700
Subject: RE: Atom Bidi Draft Last Call
Thread-Topic: Atom Bidi Draft Last Call
Thread-Index: AcifeOxVfLrz8hDPQjqq00ZLU041TwARVCggAEmBJjA=
Message-ID: <EF14FE208FC8364F94E8A58EF085979A212716926C@NA-EXMSG-C109.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
References: <mnet1.1208206611.7675.nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com>
 <005401c89eb1$100656b0$0302a8c0@T60> <48057D9F.2030008@gmail.com>
 <006d01c89fbf$8a221b00$0302a8c0@T60>
In-Reply-To: <006d01c89fbf$8a221b00$0302a8c0@T60>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
acceptlanguage: en-US
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>


> ...they use dir=3D"rtl", but they would be
> rendered the same even if the mechanism wasn't being used, because the
> example BIDI text is 100% strongly RTL, right?

Doesn't dir=3D"rtl" generally result in blocks being right-aligned instead
of left-aligned? At least this is the case in HTML.

(Sorry if I am way off, I'm not an expert in bidi and haven't been
following the thread)



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Sat Apr 19 12:55:33 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0C0D3A6830
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Sat, 19 Apr 2008 12:55:33 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.439
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.439 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6,
	RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id 1VUFTFgdxlKo
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Sat, 19 Apr 2008 12:55:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C9143A6A84
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Sat, 19 Apr 2008 12:55:32 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3JJgUrJ020879
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Sat, 19 Apr 2008 12:42:31 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3JJgUam020878;
	Sat, 19 Apr 2008 12:42:30 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [216.86.168.178])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3JJgS3J020872
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO)
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sat, 19 Apr 2008 12:42:30 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from mnot@mnot.net)
Received: from [192.168.0.182] (unknown [209.131.62.115])
	(using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits))
	(No client certificate requested)
	by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F167E23E3F3;
	Sat, 19 Apr 2008 15:42:27 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <0C3544FF-26D1-4B53-9F4E-6050DD7F5BB9@mnot.net>
From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
To: atom-syntax Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2)
Subject: Feedback on Tombstones -04
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 12:42:26 -0700
Cc: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.919.2)
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>


James,

Overall, I would very much like to see this progress -- either on the  
standards track or as informational -- ASAP, as I believe it to be  
useful, mature (with the nits below noted) and have immediate needs  
for it (albeit in internal projects, but we'd prefer not to create  
something proprietary, or to adopt still-not-stable technology).

1) "If the at:deleted-entry element does not contain a when element,  
the at: deleted-entry sharing the same atom:id as an entry MUST be  
ignored." This is too strict; if a feed has an explicit ordering  
(e.g., a marker giving semantics to lexical ordering), an  
implementation may determine which has precedence by that ordering.

2) "Atom Feed Documents MAY contain any number of at:deleted-entry  
elements, but MUST NOT contain more than one with the same ref  
attribute value." ... but later ... "An Atom feed MAY contain  
atom:entry elements and at:deleted-entry elements sharing the same  
atom:id value." The MUST NOT is too strict; it makes coincidence of  
deletions a serialisation problem (notice that it's specified in terms  
of feed documents, not feeds).

3) Are extensions elements and attributes allowed?

4) I'm still not entirely comfortable with the trash link relation;
  a) it seems to conflate the semantics of "this moved somewhere else"  
and where it moved to (i.e., the trash). There are other reasons why  
something might be moved to another feed, and
  b) the relationship with deleted-entry is still a bit fuzzy, from a  
user standpoint. Does the presence of a trash feed mean that a client  
should go to the effort of subscribing to it and removing entries that  
appear in it?

Why not, for example, allow deleted-entry to specify where an entry  
has moved to (allowing a default to be set as a link relation,  
perhaps), and let *that* feed define whether or not it's a trash bin?

5) AIUI User Experience folks say that in some cultures references to  
images of death are inappropriate; it may be good to find a more  
neutral name for the spec (I don't have a problem with it; just  
occurred to me).

Cheers,

--
Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Sun Apr 20 17:19:42 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD1B73A6B07
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Sun, 20 Apr 2008 17:19:42 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.599
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id aiC1crZ-DTcP
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Sun, 20 Apr 2008 17:19:42 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 933D73A69A6
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Sun, 20 Apr 2008 17:19:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3L08VQ2001952
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Sun, 20 Apr 2008 17:08:31 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3L08VMr001951;
	Sun, 20 Apr 2008 17:08:31 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [216.86.168.178])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3L08TkU001945
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO)
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Apr 2008 17:08:30 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from brian@briansmith.org)
Received: from T60 (unknown [70.136.53.172])
	(using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits))
	(No client certificate requested)
	by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E609323E409;
	Sun, 20 Apr 2008 20:08:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Brian Smith" <brian@briansmith.org>
To: "'Joe Cheng'" <Joe.Cheng@microsoft.com>,
        "'James M Snell'" <jasnell@gmail.com>, <atom-syntax@imc.org>
References: <mnet1.1208206611.7675.nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com> <005401c89eb1$100656b0$0302a8c0@T60> <48057D9F.2030008@gmail.com> <006d01c89fbf$8a221b00$0302a8c0@T60> <EF14FE208FC8364F94E8A58EF085979A212716926C@NA-EXMSG-C109.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
Subject: RE: Atom Bidi Draft Last Call
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 17:08:22 -0700
Message-ID: <001501c8a343$d5b98260$0202a8c0@T60>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11
In-Reply-To: <EF14FE208FC8364F94E8A58EF085979A212716926C@NA-EXMSG-C109.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
Thread-Index: AcifeOxVfLrz8hDPQjqq00ZLU041TwARVCggAEmBJjAAl02wIA==
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>


Joe Cheng wrote:
> Brian Smith wrote:
> > ...they use dir="rtl", but they would be
> > rendered the same even if the mechanism wasn't being used, 
> because the
> > example BIDI text is 100% strongly RTL, right?
> 
> Doesn't dir="rtl" generally result in blocks being 
> right-aligned instead of left-aligned? At least this
> is the case in HTML.
> 
> (Sorry if I am way off, I'm not an expert in bidi and haven't been
> following the thread)

Possibly. I bet James would be able to answer better than me. I would
think that the default alignment would depend heavily on the user
interface of the application and the user's language preferences.

My understanding is that directionality overrides are primarily focused
on the correct rendering of characters that are not stringly LTR or RTL,
like punctionation, when they appear between strongly LTR and strongly
RTL letters. The W3C ITS recommendation has a few examples in its test
suite that demonstrate its BIDI overrides, and those examples all deal
with punctuation between English and Arabic text.

- Brian



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Sun Apr 20 18:33:54 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 742303A6BA7
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Sun, 20 Apr 2008 18:33:54 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.599
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id JvOYUC1zLzd0
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Sun, 20 Apr 2008 18:33:53 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DCAE3A6B4A
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Sun, 20 Apr 2008 18:33:53 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3L1Pd0a008240
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Sun, 20 Apr 2008 18:25:39 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3L1PdXY008239;
	Sun, 20 Apr 2008 18:25:39 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.176])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3L1PchH008231
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Apr 2008 18:25:38 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com)
Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id a25so1808318pyi.11
        for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Sun, 20 Apr 2008 18:25:37 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=5XqlL+KXaiYvzylPchzT9AYS/ffSvXp5I5YcNw0vVsg=;
        b=ANy1wJvRo0C6Wmiw4rDOomhwsKGQAqyHr14hoRuSS6iDV66Zn5dUwizSLrBvfis8rgSRRGmSmSvXrGR8E5AG9WV3sD5SCAwlzUNojlnGFSEFzwANfCELupb87kIBS8Yxur3wwCuYb4FKXjsScs5DIUjt+mliB73MAPlTSy13Odw=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        b=KveyqNElVcmSITz33apiYHrcBa05n965lOKINYSUWyw0xnGKrIGnIC1nRjoNB1+4lUhDty28c6tWIbIvQBsF3OjnuAHQ5e8OH4oH2gqkFpFOwcnMaUvQBHz5Z2CoYqmbFumaYpbRjaOPxuicW5p71uzE9XIpLU+ebANzwOGAEQQ=
Received: by 10.35.38.3 with SMTP id q3mr3197344pyj.57.1208741136564;
        Sun, 20 Apr 2008 18:25:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?192.168.2.2? ( [67.181.217.27])
        by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n67sm9049583pyh.0.2008.04.20.18.25.34
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5);
        Sun, 20 Apr 2008 18:25:35 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <480BED0C.9050303@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 18:25:32 -0700
From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080227)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Brian Smith <brian@briansmith.org>
CC: "'Joe Cheng'" <Joe.Cheng@microsoft.com>, atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: Re: Atom Bidi Draft Last Call
References: <mnet1.1208206611.7675.nicolas1.krebs3@netcourrier.com> <005401c89eb1$100656b0$0302a8c0@T60> <48057D9F.2030008@gmail.com> <006d01c89fbf$8a221b00$0302a8c0@T60> <EF14FE208FC8364F94E8A58EF085979A212716926C@NA-EXMSG-C109.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <001501c8a343$d5b98260$0202a8c0@T60>
In-Reply-To: <001501c8a343$d5b98260$0202a8c0@T60>
X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>


The display details can vary broadly depending on the application and 
the context.  Feed readers are diverse enough that it simply does not 
make much sense for the bidi draft to specify any requirements as far as 
alignment is concerned or even appropriate levels of embedding.  The 
most the spec says about alignment is that implementers MAY use the same 
alignment rules as HTML but no requirements are specified.

- James

Brian Smith wrote:
> Joe Cheng wrote:
>> Brian Smith wrote:
>>> ...they use dir="rtl", but they would be
>>> rendered the same even if the mechanism wasn't being used, 
>> because the
>>> example BIDI text is 100% strongly RTL, right?
>> Doesn't dir="rtl" generally result in blocks being 
>> right-aligned instead of left-aligned? At least this
>> is the case in HTML.
>>
>> (Sorry if I am way off, I'm not an expert in bidi and haven't been
>> following the thread)
> 
> Possibly. I bet James would be able to answer better than me. I would
> think that the default alignment would depend heavily on the user
> interface of the application and the user's language preferences.
> 
> My understanding is that directionality overrides are primarily focused
> on the correct rendering of characters that are not stringly LTR or RTL,
> like punctionation, when they appear between strongly LTR and strongly
> RTL letters. The W3C ITS recommendation has a few examples in its test
> suite that demonstrate its BIDI overrides, and those examples all deal
> with punctuation between English and Arabic text.
> 
> - Brian
> 
> 



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Mon Apr 21 08:10:28 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3882728C420
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:10:28 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.999
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[AWL=-1.600, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6,
	J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id NO1nbLxq4owz
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:10:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01B0228C422
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:10:26 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3LF14dd083875
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:01:04 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3LF14OL083874;
	Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:01:04 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.181])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3LF13tR083868
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:01:04 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com)
Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id a25so2100982pyi.11
        for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:00:54 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=F1Z5IbPPn9nZiW8cIJ73wufpa4vDnDuaAWvAAyvQrYQ=;
        b=utL5KQdyHYo39/84Abfob2w5GbtT0rfrRePRWzFAIFiqu+TMGJwbyK/bCjjAvhpvbIRbxOFvueAu3TyPTIKTJI7ni8sayUj1vQMHv18rMAKBPvT6TDhjQYdvOM9MUe+a25jvzZk5vDTF875Wu3mRI9IDMSkvAU/b1ETARx1BV4o=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        b=ZKS8WP1I5EIzgYsMFs2vIpDPAHTKswD3U4duWLRUp18bVEGMYBpjSX87Mw3F41rP55GKnNNPgW0oq38dMTDAV33gDSKQaeYf74U/VSBpp23pTyxGHILRQfw/mWk7j9bhKDhrSgs4qg0BfDq2ErE27G/0av+1Nv8ZJ4s1iCOKbys=
Received: by 10.35.34.18 with SMTP id m18mr10761320pyj.68.1208790054325;
        Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:00:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?192.168.2.2? ( [67.181.217.27])
        by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f24sm11376409pyh.31.2008.04.21.08.00.52
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5);
        Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:00:53 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <480CAC22.6090002@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:00:50 -0700
From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080227)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
CC: atom-syntax Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: Re: Feedback on Tombstones -04
References: <0C3544FF-26D1-4B53-9F4E-6050DD7F5BB9@mnot.net>
In-Reply-To: <0C3544FF-26D1-4B53-9F4E-6050DD7F5BB9@mnot.net>
X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>




Mark Nottingham wrote:
> James,
> 
> Overall, I would very much like to see this progress -- either on the 
> standards track or as informational -- ASAP, as I believe it to be 
> useful, mature (with the nits below noted) and have immediate needs for 
> it (albeit in internal projects, but we'd prefer not to create something 
> proprietary, or to adopt still-not-stable technology).
> 

Experimental would likely be a good choice for this.

> 1) "If the at:deleted-entry element does not contain a when element, the 
> at: deleted-entry sharing the same atom:id as an entry MUST be ignored." 
> This is too strict; if a feed has an explicit ordering (e.g., a marker 
> giving semantics to lexical ordering), an implementation may determine 
> which has precedence by that ordering.
> 

Hmm.. I think it would make more sense to just require the when 
attribute.  You could still apply the lexical ordering stuff but there 
would be no ambiguity introduced in cases that don't use lexical ordering.

> 2) "Atom Feed Documents MAY contain any number of at:deleted-entry 
> elements, but MUST NOT contain more than one with the same ref attribute 
> value." ... but later ... "An Atom feed MAY contain atom:entry elements 
> and at:deleted-entry elements sharing the same atom:id value." The MUST 
> NOT is too strict; it makes coincidence of deletions a serialisation 
> problem (notice that it's specified in terms of feed documents, not feeds).
> 

Ok. I can change that to read "MUST NOT contain more than one with the 
same combination of ref and when attribute values".

> 3) Are extensions elements and attributes allowed?
> 

Yes. I will make this more explicit.

> 4) I'm still not entirely comfortable with the trash link relation;
>  a) it seems to conflate the semantics of "this moved somewhere else" 
> and where it moved to (i.e., the trash). There are other reasons why 
> something might be moved to another feed, and
>  b) the relationship with deleted-entry is still a bit fuzzy, from a 
> user standpoint. Does the presence of a trash feed mean that a client 
> should go to the effort of subscribing to it and removing entries that 
> appear in it?
> 
> Why not, for example, allow deleted-entry to specify where an entry has 
> moved to (allowing a default to be set as a link relation, perhaps), and 
> let *that* feed define whether or not it's a trash bin?
> 

Hmmm... will have to give this some more thought.

> 5) AIUI User Experience folks say that in some cultures references to 
> images of death are inappropriate; it may be good to find a more neutral 
> name for the spec (I don't have a problem with it; just occurred to me).
> 

Good point.  Will work on this.

- James

> Cheers,
> 
> -- 
> Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/
> 
> 



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Mon Apr 21 13:53:29 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC56E3A6CF3
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:53:29 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.199
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[AWL=-0.800, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6,
	J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id ZAkFSXnInGxD
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:53:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0BBF3A6F96
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:53:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3LKQFBs027916
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:26:15 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3LKQFFR027912;
	Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:26:15 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.178])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3LKQEf3027902
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:26:14 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com)
Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id a25so2253669pyi.11
        for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:26:13 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=rbp4jTZ1QH8pnCJDssBEAnNFC6gV7OjPqoVxkcV6VLk=;
        b=Eg49hCCYbziTFjTdGIeJf5uL2EiZyc1zO81Sd7MwJFTukt9iO1SF//M0LyMK0//4sMFh588skiqBAVco7LzWs5NeyID2qdlu12VIlStCJgMaomBRfJu2f17gUDvHNzAhBer5ZIomvpYpKx117JAc5BygIwA77uCplpeTTDRBPLM=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        b=P767WkxmDLndBo7z7wj6ubc48xhh5/QOkzXR8wvSnkRNvAgBClrLhK3DG4p4GeQAloj67Tp1FWl/zfT0NQ7gJvoQWhbIfmhS/HNoAK2dEBp0Z+hhT0RyxiUxZeMMbK32IOEfsyl5y395pZ/hyWD0UfsLLuDCBqQ0W0KNPmwTs8M=
Received: by 10.35.86.12 with SMTP id o12mr11462901pyl.13.1208809573753;
        Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:26:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?192.168.2.2? ( [67.181.217.27])
        by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n29sm12425049pyh.38.2008.04.21.13.26.11
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5);
        Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:26:12 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <480CF861.7080403@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:26:09 -0700
From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080227)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
CC: atom-syntax Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: Re: Feedback on Tombstones -04
References: <0C3544FF-26D1-4B53-9F4E-6050DD7F5BB9@mnot.net>
In-Reply-To: <0C3544FF-26D1-4B53-9F4E-6050DD7F5BB9@mnot.net>
X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>


Updated:
   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-tombstones-05.txt

  * Renamed the spec
  * Removed the "trash" link relation. This can be handled separately
  * Made the when attribute required
  * Changed the "Atom processors MUST ignore any at:deleted-entry
    elements..." to "Atom processors SHOULD ignore any at:deleted-entry
    elements..."
  * Explicitly allow for extension elements and attributes
  * Changed to: "An Atom feed MAY contain any number of at:deleted-entry
    elements, but MUST NOT contain more than one with the same
    combination of ref and when attribute values."
  * Updated the example

- James

Mark Nottingham wrote:
> James,
> 
> Overall, I would very much like to see this progress -- either on the 
> standards track or as informational -- ASAP, as I believe it to be 
> useful, mature (with the nits below noted) and have immediate needs for 
> it (albeit in internal projects, but we'd prefer not to create something 
> proprietary, or to adopt still-not-stable technology).
> 
> 1) "If the at:deleted-entry element does not contain a when element, the 
> at: deleted-entry sharing the same atom:id as an entry MUST be ignored." 
> This is too strict; if a feed has an explicit ordering (e.g., a marker 
> giving semantics to lexical ordering), an implementation may determine 
> which has precedence by that ordering.
> 
> 2) "Atom Feed Documents MAY contain any number of at:deleted-entry 
> elements, but MUST NOT contain more than one with the same ref attribute 
> value." ... but later ... "An Atom feed MAY contain atom:entry elements 
> and at:deleted-entry elements sharing the same atom:id value." The MUST 
> NOT is too strict; it makes coincidence of deletions a serialisation 
> problem (notice that it's specified in terms of feed documents, not feeds).
> 
> 3) Are extensions elements and attributes allowed?
> 
> 4) I'm still not entirely comfortable with the trash link relation;
>  a) it seems to conflate the semantics of "this moved somewhere else" 
> and where it moved to (i.e., the trash). There are other reasons why 
> something might be moved to another feed, and
>  b) the relationship with deleted-entry is still a bit fuzzy, from a 
> user standpoint. Does the presence of a trash feed mean that a client 
> should go to the effort of subscribing to it and removing entries that 
> appear in it?
> 
> Why not, for example, allow deleted-entry to specify where an entry has 
> moved to (allowing a default to be set as a link relation, perhaps), and 
> let *that* feed define whether or not it's a trash bin?
> 
> 5) AIUI User Experience folks say that in some cultures references to 
> images of death are inappropriate; it may be good to find a more neutral 
> name for the spec (I don't have a problem with it; just occurred to me).
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> -- 
> Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/
> 
> 



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Mon Apr 21 18:28:21 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10C503A6F9C
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:28:21 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: 1.601
X-Spam-Level: *
X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_BACKHAIR_44=1, J_CHICKENPOX_22=0.6,
	J_CHICKENPOX_27=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6,
	J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6,
	RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id oJGRGAoj1jlU
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:28:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 738153A6F92
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:28:19 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3M1JTQZ052545
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:19:29 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3M1JTKf052544;
	Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:19:29 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [216.86.168.179])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3M1JRcw052535
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO)
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:19:28 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from brian@briansmith.org)
Received: from T60 (unknown [70.254.207.84])
	(using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits))
	(No client certificate requested)
	by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E80D8D05B9;
	Mon, 21 Apr 2008 21:19:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Brian Smith" <brian@briansmith.org>
To: "'James M Snell'" <jasnell@gmail.com>, "'Mark Nottingham'" <mnot@mnot.net>
Cc: "'atom-syntax Syntax'" <atom-syntax@imc.org>
References: <0C3544FF-26D1-4B53-9F4E-6050DD7F5BB9@mnot.net> <480CF861.7080403@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Feedback on Tombstones -04
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:19:23 -0700
Message-ID: <000f01c8a416$ea4c8be0$0202a8c0@T60>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11
In-Reply-To: <480CF861.7080403@gmail.com>
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198
Thread-Index: Acij70ryjRFxIMzPSSeC4LmaWa2PjAAHBQIg
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>


James M Snell wrote:
>   * Renamed the spec

I think you renamed the spec to avoid the "tombstone" reference.
However, the namespace URI still has "tombstone" in it; it should be
changed as well.

>   * Removed the "trash" link relation. This can be handled separately
>   * Made the when attribute required
>   * Explicitly allow for extension elements and attributes
>   * Updated the example

These changes are all nice improvements.

>   * Changed the "Atom processors MUST ignore any at:deleted-entry
>     elements..." to "Atom processors SHOULD ignore any 
>     at:deleted-entry elements..."

Instead of saying what processors should do, I think it is better to
just specify what at:deleted-by means, and let processors do whatever
they want with that information. In other words, this statement should
just be removed. This requirement doesn't fit well with AtomPub because
it is specified in terms of atom:updated; an AtomPub client will want to
compare @when to app:edited, not atom:updated. 

>   * Changed to: "An Atom feed MAY contain any number of 
>     at:deleted-entry elements, but MUST NOT contain more than
>     one with the same combination of ref and when attribute values."

This is an unnecessary restriction that doesn't add any value, and it
could be removed without any ill effect. It would be silly to generate
such duplicates but doing so is benign.

Like I mentioned in previous discussions, at:by and at:comment should be
removed. If it is important to keep track of that information for
deletions, then it would also be just as important to keep track of that
information for creation and editions of entries. In other words, those
things would be better specified by a separate specification that
described their usage within both at:deleted-entry AND atom:entry.

I recommend replacing the definition of the "ref" attribute with the one
from RFC 4685:

   The "ref" attribute specifies the persistent, universally unique
   identifier of the [entry that was removed].  The value MUST
   conform to the same construction and comparison rules as the value of
   the atom:id element, as defined in Section 4.2.6 of [RFC4287].
   Though the IRI might use a dereferenceable scheme, processors MUST
   NOT assume that it can be dereferenced.

It is misleading to call the when attribute an atomDateConstruct in the
RelaxNG schema, because Atom date constructs are elements, not
attributes. Similarly, I'd prefer to see @when be defined as an Atom
date construct (like atom:updated), because then we can more easily use
date-processing code that has already been written for atom:updated and
app:edited, and reuse the same Atom<->JSON mapping rule for it.

Previously, we discussed at length whether at:deleted-entry elements
should be intermixed with atom:entry elements, or before all the
atom:entry elements, and how they should be ordered. I recommend adding
clarification about these issues: "at:deleted-entry elements MAY be
appear anywhere within an atom:feed element; they may appear before,
before, between, and/or after atom:entry elements. The order of
at:deleted-entry elements is not significant."

Regards,
Brian



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Mon Apr 21 22:58:51 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB8713A684C
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:58:51 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: 0.041
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.041 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.560,
	BAYES_00=-2.599, J_BACKHAIR_44=1, J_CHICKENPOX_22=0.6,
	J_CHICKENPOX_27=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6,
	J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id ekJJF9CM8Gon
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:58:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70E563A6B78
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:58:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3M5dCQE074002
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:39:12 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3M5dCsK074001;
	Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:39:12 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.180])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3M5dBuE073994
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:39:12 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com)
Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id a25so2464966pyi.11
        for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:39:10 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=9oA0SHpu9y9ZHHFcB9mKmTGboPkxTjJog31E2xK79rw=;
        b=lgSyOODwOeDBjfx7BLyWhH0jD1OfSfNgb0f0g00Cvc3nPhrL/YCHwpdv2QK5CQHl7t/vTe53YZewu3EbVvZsYJyFX+oRTsjn/Usq7dkD4EpX03PvD925x3KgNoX+q2PZGV9SniPDAEtbWTR/BO4d+vH+jKJ6imoqFksFodQbM5E=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        b=k2cgvt+ZYeX8/ODYWaTAsn4UbFUIZuh3QM5kAeB4Ph/EXh9/aLA4KcJC6PpiE5btVxtEV5IMxjTttXQqZ3rVS3M0NxTCHndoWUTRPfY7fBo9vq+Q5rLau04hR7UqR1kHBuJ4a1HVRXwPzCPwtaeqLPCuk8X4WYVF2VMVAfQseBY=
Received: by 10.35.101.1 with SMTP id d1mr12175762pym.39.1208842750400;
        Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:39:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?192.168.2.2? ( [67.181.217.27])
        by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f57sm14034758pyh.6.2008.04.21.22.39.08
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5);
        Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:39:09 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <480D79F9.3060908@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:39:05 -0700
From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080227)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Brian Smith <brian@briansmith.org>
CC: "'Mark Nottingham'" <mnot@mnot.net>,
        "'atom-syntax Syntax'" <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: Re: Feedback on Tombstones -04
References: <0C3544FF-26D1-4B53-9F4E-6050DD7F5BB9@mnot.net> <480CF861.7080403@gmail.com> <000f01c8a416$ea4c8be0$0202a8c0@T60>
In-Reply-To: <000f01c8a416$ea4c8be0$0202a8c0@T60>
X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>




Brian Smith wrote:
> James M Snell wrote:
>>   * Renamed the spec
> 
> I think you renamed the spec to avoid the "tombstone" reference.
> However, the namespace URI still has "tombstone" in it; it should be
> changed as well.
> 

Yes, I'm planning to change that in the next rev. I wanted to make sure 
the new spec title was ok first.

>>   * Removed the "trash" link relation. This can be handled separately
>>   * Made the when attribute required
>>   * Explicitly allow for extension elements and attributes
>>   * Updated the example
> 
> These changes are all nice improvements.
> 
>>   * Changed the "Atom processors MUST ignore any at:deleted-entry
>>     elements..." to "Atom processors SHOULD ignore any 
>>     at:deleted-entry elements..."
> 
> Instead of saying what processors should do, I think it is better to
> just specify what at:deleted-by means, and let processors do whatever
> they want with that information. In other words, this statement should
> just be removed. This requirement doesn't fit well with AtomPub because
> it is specified in terms of atom:updated; an AtomPub client will want to
> compare @when to app:edited, not atom:updated. 
> 

Yeah, I considered this and am definitely open to it.  The main 
challenge is that if an entry with a newer atom:updated or app:edited 
appears in a feed with an at:deleted-entry specifying the same atom:id 
but a later when attribute value could still be viewed as having been 
deleted if a clear precedence is not established.  The correct 
interpretation is that the entry had been deleted but that it was 
brought back.  I'm not certain if we can accomplish that by just 
specifying the definition of at:deleted-entry.

>>   * Changed to: "An Atom feed MAY contain any number of 
>>     at:deleted-entry elements, but MUST NOT contain more than
>>     one with the same combination of ref and when attribute values."
> 
> This is an unnecessary restriction that doesn't add any value, and it
> could be removed without any ill effect. It would be silly to generate
> such duplicates but doing so is benign.
> 

That shouldn't be a problem.  Whether this restriction is there or not 
implementors will still need to write code to detect duplicates so 
there's no impact to removing it.

> Like I mentioned in previous discussions, at:by and at:comment should be
> removed. If it is important to keep track of that information for
> deletions, then it would also be just as important to keep track of that
> information for creation and editions of entries. In other words, those
> things would be better specified by a separate specification that
> described their usage within both at:deleted-entry AND atom:entry.
> 

I would have no problem with adding a kind of generic edit:comment 
element for deletes and updates.  Such notes are frequently found in 
systems such as wikis and would generally be quite useful.  Perhaps this 
specification could define them in the generic way you suggest?

> I recommend replacing the definition of the "ref" attribute with the one
> from RFC 4685:
> 
>    The "ref" attribute specifies the persistent, universally unique
>    identifier of the [entry that was removed].  The value MUST
>    conform to the same construction and comparison rules as the value of
>    the atom:id element, as defined in Section 4.2.6 of [RFC4287].
>    Though the IRI might use a dereferenceable scheme, processors MUST
>    NOT assume that it can be dereferenced.
> 

+1.  That was actually on my list of todos but I missed it in this rev.

> It is misleading to call the when attribute an atomDateConstruct in the
> RelaxNG schema, because Atom date constructs are elements, not
> attributes. Similarly, I'd prefer to see @when be defined as an Atom
> date construct (like atom:updated), because then we can more easily use
> date-processing code that has already been written for atom:updated and
> app:edited, and reuse the same Atom<->JSON mapping rule for it.
> 

Generally speaking, I agree.  The rationale for using an attribute here 
is to keep the serialization as compact as possible, which I think is 
important (tho others may not).

> Previously, we discussed at length whether at:deleted-entry elements
> should be intermixed with atom:entry elements, or before all the
> atom:entry elements, and how they should be ordered. I recommend adding
> clarification about these issues: "at:deleted-entry elements MAY be
> appear anywhere within an atom:feed element; they may appear before,
> before, between, and/or after atom:entry elements. The order of
> at:deleted-entry elements is not significant."
> 

RFC4287 requires that a feed's metadata elements come before the listing 
of entry elements. See section 4.1.1:

    The "atom:feed" element is the document (i.e., top-level) element of
    an Atom Feed Document, acting as a container for metadata and data
    associated with the feed.  Its element children consist of metadata
    elements followed by zero or more atom:entry child elements.

Therefore, the listing of at:deleted-entry elements MUST come before the 
listing of atom:entry elements.  The ordering the at:deleted-entry 
elements is not significant.

- James

> Regards,
> Brian
> 
> 



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Tue Apr 22 11:18:29 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 211583A67AE
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:18:29 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: 0.001
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_22=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_27=0.6,
	J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6,
	J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id 49bbNlenyuLG
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:18:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCA5A3A63CB
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:18:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3MHkwXW061973
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:46:58 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3MHkwTW061972;
	Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:46:58 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [216.86.168.178])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3MHku5m061963
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO)
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:46:57 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from brian@briansmith.org)
Received: from T60 (unknown [64.149.30.15])
	(using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits))
	(No client certificate requested)
	by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33E9323E496;
	Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:46:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Brian Smith" <brian@briansmith.org>
To: "'James M Snell'" <jasnell@gmail.com>
Cc: "'Mark Nottingham'" <mnot@mnot.net>,
        "'atom-syntax Syntax'" <atom-syntax@imc.org>
References: <0C3544FF-26D1-4B53-9F4E-6050DD7F5BB9@mnot.net> <480CF861.7080403@gmail.com> <000f01c8a416$ea4c8be0$0202a8c0@T60> <480D79F9.3060908@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Feedback on Tombstones -04
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:46:58 -0700
Message-ID: <000101c8a4a0$dd89fe30$0202a8c0@T60>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11
In-Reply-To: <480D79F9.3060908@gmail.com>
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198
thread-index: AcikO6UZ0j6C2CASRkeq8hONPNFXqAAYL6gg
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>


James M Snell wrote:
> Brian Smith wrote:
> > Instead of saying what processors should do, I think it
> > is better to just specify what at:deleted-by means, and
> > let processors do whatever they want with that
> > information. In other words, this statement should
> > just be removed. This requirement doesn't fit well with 
> > AtomPub because it is specified in terms of atom:updated;
> > an AtomPub client will want to compare @when to
> > app:edited, not atom:updated. 
> 
> Yeah, I considered this and am definitely open to it.
> The main  challenge is that if an entry with a newer
> atom:updated or app:edited appears in a feed with an
> at:deleted-entry specifying the same atom:id 
> but a later when attribute value could still be
> viewed as having been deleted if a clear precedence
> is not established. The correct interpretation is
> that the entry had been deleted but that it was 
> brought back.  I'm not certain if we can accomplish
> that by just specifying the definition of at:deleted-entry.

The case I care about is where I have deleted an entry from an AtomPub
collection and then un-delete it, so atom:updated shouldn't be updated,
but app:edited should be updated (atom:updated < deleted-entry/@when <
app:edited).

Why not have at:deleted-entry contain app:edited and/or atom:updated
instead of @when? Then say that timestamps should be compared using the
same date construct (compare only app:edited to app:edited, and
atom:updated to atom:updated). AtomPub collections would use app:edited
and most other collections would use atom:updated, just like they do
with atom:entry already today.

> > Like I mentioned in previous discussions, at:by and 
> > at:comment should be removed.

> I would have no problem with adding a kind of generic edit:comment 
> element for deletes and updates.  Such notes are frequently found in 
> systems such as wikis and would generally be quite useful.  
> Perhaps this specification could define them in the generic way
> you suggest?

I think there is more chance of succeeding if the specification is kept
as narrowly-focused as possible. 

> Therefore, the listing of at:deleted-entry elements MUST come 
> before the listing of atom:entry elements. 
> The ordering the at:deleted-entry elements is not significant.

That is fine with me. But, how about wrapping the at:deleted-entry
elements in a wrapper element:

<at:deleted-entries>
   <at:deleted-entry .../>
   <at:deleted-entry .../>
   <at:deleted-entry .../>
</at:deleted-entries>

This would allow a feed to indicate that it supports this feature, even
when no entries have been deleted:

    <at:deleted-entries/>

Knowing that the collection provides these tombstones would all clients
to skip crawling the collection to look for deleted entries.

Regards,
Brian



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Tue Apr 22 14:14:36 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F5633A6BC4
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:14:36 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.699
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[AWL=-1.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_22=0.6,
	J_CHICKENPOX_27=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6,
	J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id Mg5lkdjBZmdO
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:14:35 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C6C028C467
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:14:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3ML7Rg2082331
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:07:27 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3ML7RTx082330;
	Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:07:27 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.183])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3ML7PPe082323
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:07:26 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com)
Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id a25so2835693pyi.11
        for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:07:25 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=dAuhaGZCZpwMqkjdGK30moKGp8eG+2DYQJ7rqjefDD4=;
        b=A5j+sdI3O5EjrHYE6xSU0BHhfW0ktZhvcep05X7DPLMA7a+7x2ZWfCTkNd9Rss7bc/D5paYO+fyPfzYsy5LbjsZpD1odUpypf17utqyBSnAvX/5/NHvYrq/NeRaXsWMZP1ZFRCLzPyj8jb1rot8liVOX30rkO6DHltbGodzT7Uk=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        b=GBp4Xeth/+RytIzn4pPG6cp0yTZfHPZMeqFlQmckBGoCvMaQ2KG24QYn7CTEwiTLzzXuafNGcDqjaEkx91RuXqEuuCJJyZrFCQCC5kTggV/y8qx9QQ4LdXa8RFmuAIPqrp3NR4IREphHVnN/vRwSw+h1zz9gD0JG2l8AiZ+EiqE=
Received: by 10.35.88.16 with SMTP id q16mr1160054pyl.66.1208898444485;
        Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:07:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?192.168.2.2? ( [67.181.217.27])
        by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f79sm8046392pyh.25.2008.04.22.14.07.22
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5);
        Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:07:23 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <480E5388.60008@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:07:20 -0700
From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080227)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Brian Smith <brian@briansmith.org>
CC: "'Mark Nottingham'" <mnot@mnot.net>,
        "'atom-syntax Syntax'" <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: Re: Feedback on Tombstones -04
References: <0C3544FF-26D1-4B53-9F4E-6050DD7F5BB9@mnot.net> <480CF861.7080403@gmail.com> <000f01c8a416$ea4c8be0$0202a8c0@T60> <480D79F9.3060908@gmail.com> <000101c8a4a0$dd89fe30$0202a8c0@T60>
In-Reply-To: <000101c8a4a0$dd89fe30$0202a8c0@T60>
X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>




Brian Smith wrote:
> [snip]
> Why not have at:deleted-entry contain app:edited and/or atom:updated
> instead of @when? Then say that timestamps should be compared using the
> same date construct (compare only app:edited to app:edited, and
> atom:updated to atom:updated). AtomPub collections would use app:edited
> and most other collections would use atom:updated, just like they do
> with atom:entry already today.
> 

That would be entirely possible.  Will stew on that a bit.

>>> Like I mentioned in previous discussions, at:by and 
>>> at:comment should be removed.
> 
>> I would have no problem with adding a kind of generic edit:comment 
>> element for deletes and updates.  Such notes are frequently found in 
>> systems such as wikis and would generally be quite useful.  
>> Perhaps this specification could define them in the generic way
>> you suggest?
> 
> I think there is more chance of succeeding if the specification is kept
> as narrowly-focused as possible. 
> 

Agreed, which is why I originally was focusing on one specific, and
narrow issue.  :-)

>> Therefore, the listing of at:deleted-entry elements MUST come 
>> before the listing of atom:entry elements. 
>> The ordering the at:deleted-entry elements is not significant.
> 
> That is fine with me. But, how about wrapping the at:deleted-entry
> elements in a wrapper element:
> 
> <at:deleted-entries>
>    <at:deleted-entry .../>
>    <at:deleted-entry .../>
>    <at:deleted-entry .../>
> </at:deleted-entries>
> 
> This would allow a feed to indicate that it supports this feature, even
> when no entries have been deleted:
> 

I don't really see the value of this.  Either there are at:deleted-entry
elements or not.  If there aren't any, it really doesn't matter if the
feed supports the feature.

- James

>     <at:deleted-entries/>
> 
> Knowing that the collection provides these tombstones would all clients
> to skip crawling the collection to look for deleted entries.
> 
> Regards,
> Brian
> 
> 



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Tue Apr 22 14:22:53 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D10B63A6F7D
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:22:53 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: 1.161
X-Spam-Level: *
X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.161 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6,
	J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id w3-8AR4FVAdd
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:22:53 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2AE33A6FAF
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:21:32 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3MLFvHv083145
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:15:57 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3MLFvUF083144;
	Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:15:57 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from spaceymail-a6.g.dreamhost.com (lax-green-bigip-5.dreamhost.com [208.113.200.5])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3MLFuHM083137
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:15:57 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au)
Received: from [10.172.80.47] (unknown [203.171.193.161])
	by spaceymail-a6.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 216A9CA7EB
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:15:16 -0700 (PDT)
User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 07:15:49 +1000
Subject: Re: Feedback on Tombstones -04
From: Eric Scheid <eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au>
To: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Message-ID: <C43492A5.143FF2%eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au>
In-Reply-To: <000101c8a4a0$dd89fe30$0202a8c0@T60>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>


On 23/4/08 3:46 AM, "Brian Smith" <brian@briansmith.org> wrote:

> Why not have at:deleted-entry contain app:edited and/or atom:updated
> instead of @when? Then say that timestamps should be compared using the
> same date construct (compare only app:edited to app:edited, and
> atom:updated to atom:updated). AtomPub collections would use app:edited
> and most other collections would use atom:updated, just like they do
> with atom:entry already today.

+1 : elegant, simple

> This would allow a feed to indicate that it supports this feature, even
> when no entries have been deleted:
> 
>   <at:deleted-entries/>
> 
> Knowing that the collection provides these tombstones would all clients
> to skip crawling the collection to look for deleted entries.

+1 also

e.



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Tue Apr 22 18:38:54 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC1373A6F06
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:38:54 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.253
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.253 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.215,
	BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RDNS_DOTCOM_HELO=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1,
	SARE_RMML_Stock10=0.13]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id dXN2Zga64PqE
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:38:53 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 599AA3A69E2
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:38:53 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3N1U7b9097693
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:30:07 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3N1U7JR097692;
	Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:30:07 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [216.86.168.179])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3N1U505097685
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO)
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:30:06 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from mnot@mnot.net)
Received: from naturevery-lm.corp.yahoo.com (unknown [209.131.62.113])
	(using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits))
	(No client certificate requested)
	by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7204CD05BF
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:30:04 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <CF45557E-142C-4687-B36D-58F50ADEBA99@mnot.net>
From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
To: atom-syntax Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=Apple-Mail-2-826251305
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2)
Subject: Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-http-link-header-01.txt 
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:30:01 -0700
References: <20080317183001.C794D28C10D@core3.amsl.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.919.2)
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>



--Apple-Mail-2-826251305
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=US-ASCII;
	format=flowed;
	delsp=yes
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Atom-ers,

I'd like opinions on the draft below; it proposes some changes to  
facilitate alignment of the HTML and Atom link relation values and  
registries, so that we don't have format-specific link relations.

Feedback has been positive so far (mostly on the HTTP list, also in  
W3C circles), but since this changes the registry (and otherwise is so  
directly related to Atom), it's important that there's buy-in here as  
well.

Comments?


Begin forwarded message:
> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> Date: 17 March 2008 11:30:01 AM
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-http-link-header-01.txt
> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
>
>
> 	Title		: HTTP Header Linking
> 	Author(s)	: M. Nottingham
> 	Filename	: draft-nottingham-http-link-header-01.txt
> 	Pages		: 13
> 	Date		: 2008-3-17
> 	
> This document clarifies the status of the Link HTTP header and
>   attempts to consolidate link relations in a single registry.
>
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-01.txt
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
> Internet-Draft.

--Apple-Mail-2-826251305
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename=mime-attachment
Content-Type: message/external-body;
	x-unix-mode=0666;
	name="mime-attachment"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Content-Type: text/plain<BR>Content-ID: &lt;2008-3-17112413.I-D@ietf.org&gt;<BR><BR>
--Apple-Mail-2-826251305
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=US-ASCII;
	format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> _______________________________________________
> I-D-Announce mailing list
> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt


--
Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/


--Apple-Mail-2-826251305--



From deriteri_1989@CAD.SSG.FUJITSU.COM  Wed Apr 23 01:48:10 2008
Return-Path: <deriteri_1989@CAD.SSG.FUJITSU.COM>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07A023A6D1E
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 01:48:10 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -55.014
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-55.014 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_DYNAMIC_DIALIN=3.384,
	HELO_EQ_DIP_DIALIN=1.573, HOST_EQ_DIP_TDIAL=2.144, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,
	HTML_SHORT_CENTER=0.001, PRICES_ARE_AFFORDABLE=0.001,
	RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5,
	RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877,
	RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10,
	USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id oLKbbbUVl7kw
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Wed, 23 Apr 2008 01:48:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from p5B257894.dip.t-dialin.net (p5B257894.dip.t-dialin.net [91.37.120.148])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 454CE3A6A39
	for <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 01:47:49 -0700 (PDT)
User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.1.0.080305
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 10:49:31 +0200
Subject: Your nearest pharma mall.
From: Uusitalo <deriteri_1989@CAD.SSG.FUJITSU.COM>
To: "atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org" <atompub-archive@lists.ietf.org>
Message-ID: <3338D693.FC%deriteri_1989@CAD.SSG.FUJITSU.COM>
Thread-Topic: Your nearest pharma mall.
Thread-Index: AcilL7W3n6FPwH25Q6qhg+UToVCrjw==
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative;
        boundary="B_0439026413_99798"

--B_0439026413_99798
Content-type: text/plain;
        charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Med Store Online offers a full range of medical supplies at affordable prices. http://www.poweueggoe.com/


--B_0439026413_99798
Content-type: text/html;
        charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Your nearest pharma mall.</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#CC0080"><FONT SIZE=3D"3"><center><B><FONT =
FACE=3D"Tahoma"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:14pt'>Med Store Online offers a =
full range of medical supplies at affordable prices. <a =
href=3D"http://www.poweueggoe.com/">http://www.poweueggoe.com/</a></B></C=
ENTER><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>
</BODY>
</HTML>


--B_0439026413_99798--


From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Wed Apr 23 08:48:21 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F0903A6B9A
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:48:21 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.997
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.472,
	BAYES_00=-2.599, SARE_RMML_Stock10=0.13]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id M27Ebsy+3EXv
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:48:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5DA33A6D10
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:48:19 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3NFax5U076947
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:37:00 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3NFax29076946;
	Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:36:59 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from hs-out-0708.google.com (hs-out-0708.google.com [64.233.178.248])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3NFawjm076938
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:36:59 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com)
Received: by hs-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id 55so1654178hsc.10
        for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:36:58 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=f1QWwwPXit1CNijlVUMqUG7QvWFw8np0IIgLrx3ipY4=;
        b=IBlRirX95Qbuz3cNDXnkJJLGawP6MFyRsueodLeLUYY8z05z/dme0/9Cb3l5c3vvtlZOY1ZUopQ/aYRbhQ4zjc3U6bnN0A1YtQoCQBSBgtCu5ZBxRsGglzI+Udf1q5cbUFi6i5WnR/YPAoyAr6PKXULrgGROWN0ONIL0HFVu7r8=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        b=SaRSOVzwhcuJ605gHQgcAS3Qu1M0ZoGWOZnkTjaMNn9GG3Kku24rtSz4HerhLbVByavbbBYQI2tPCZ3rSGSWSNt6zC1Q4khBoMFR365dg6rcBZEfx0/9MOQEP6nwJnQHfPE2H/m7ZBgk6D1CdmJxI3Wv/YHom51ZnGEprUIZL/E=
Received: by 10.90.86.9 with SMTP id j9mr2197984agb.54.1208965018278;
        Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:36:58 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?192.168.2.2? ( [67.181.217.27])
        by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b45sm241625hsa.6.2008.04.23.08.36.56
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5);
        Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:36:57 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <480F5796.4030004@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:36:54 -0700
From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080227)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
CC: atom-syntax Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: Re: Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-http-link-header-01.txt
References: <20080317183001.C794D28C10D@core3.amsl.com> <CF45557E-142C-4687-B36D-58F50ADEBA99@mnot.net>
In-Reply-To: <CF45557E-142C-4687-B36D-58F50ADEBA99@mnot.net>
X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>


Mark,

overall I think this is a good thing.  However, I am concerned that this 
would allow for a bunch of new link relations to be used in Atom without 
a clear understanding of their meaning in that context.  For instance, 
"index: refers to an index" is not exactly clear and the description in 
HTML 4.01 doesn't help either "Refers to a document providing an index 
for the current document."  It is an index of the Atom entry or of the 
content?  It's not a showstopper, of course, but it is something that 
should be considered.

- James

Mark Nottingham wrote:
> Hello Atom-ers,
> 
> I'd like opinions on the draft below; it proposes some changes to 
> facilitate alignment of the HTML and Atom link relation values and 
> registries, so that we don't have format-specific link relations.
> 
> Feedback has been positive so far (mostly on the HTTP list, also in W3C 
> circles), but since this changes the registry (and otherwise is so 
> directly related to Atom), it's important that there's buy-in here as well.
> 
> Comments?
> 
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
>> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
>> Date: 17 March 2008 11:30:01 AM
>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>> Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-http-link-header-01.txt
>> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>
>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>> directories.
>>
>>
>>     Title        : HTTP Header Linking
>>     Author(s)    : M. Nottingham
>>     Filename    : draft-nottingham-http-link-header-01.txt
>>     Pages        : 13
>>     Date        : 2008-3-17
>>     
>> This document clarifies the status of the Link HTTP header and
>>   attempts to consolidate link relations in a single registry.
>>
>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-01.txt 
>>
>>
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>
>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
>> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
>> Internet-Draft.
>> _______________________________________________
>> I-D-Announce mailing list
>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> 
> 
> -- 
> Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/
> 



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Wed Apr 23 12:44:07 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A7003A6E48
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 12:44:07 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -3.469
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.469 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, SARE_RMML_Stock10=0.13]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id BdZcce2sjR0V
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Wed, 23 Apr 2008 12:44:03 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCCA53A6B56
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 12:44:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3NJZCv2097574
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Wed, 23 Apr 2008 12:35:12 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3NJZCAr097573;
	Wed, 23 Apr 2008 12:35:12 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [216.86.168.179])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3NJZASZ097564
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO)
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 12:35:11 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from brian@briansmith.org)
Received: from T60 (unknown [70.239.202.16])
	(using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits))
	(No client certificate requested)
	by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EB16D05A4
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 15:35:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Brian Smith" <brian@briansmith.org>
To: "'atom-syntax Syntax'" <atom-syntax@imc.org>
References: <20080317183001.C794D28C10D@core3.amsl.com> <CF45557E-142C-4687-B36D-58F50ADEBA99@mnot.net> <480F5796.4030004@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-http-link-header-01.txt
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 12:35:01 -0700
Message-ID: <001401c8a579$2485bf30$0202a8c0@T60>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11
In-Reply-To: <480F5796.4030004@gmail.com>
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198
Thread-Index: AcilWFmoez7d+C6tT3uPHlZKl7K2yQAFHnAg
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>


James M Snell wrote:
> Mark Nottingham wrote:
> > Hello Atom-ers,
> > 
> > I'd like opinions on the draft below; it proposes some changes to 
> > facilitate alignment of the HTML and Atom link relation values and 
> > registries, so that we don't have format-specific link relations.
> > 
> > Feedback has been positive so far (mostly on the HTTP list, 
> also in W3C 
> > circles), but since this changes the registry (and otherwise is so 
> > directly related to Atom), it's important that there's 
> buy-in here as well.
> > 
> > Comments?

The HTML5 draft document says that Link: headers are to be processed
according to the definitions given in HTML 5. I vaguely remember that
the HTML WG (or WHATWG, I forget) wanted to be the authoritative
reference for all link relations in HTML, they wanted to define how
conflict are handled, and they even have their own wiki-based registry:
http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/RelExtensions. What did the HTML 5 people
have to say about shifting the maintenance of the registry to the IESG?

Is a Link header is even a good idea for Atom documents? Atom documents
are almost universally machine-generated, and it is easy for a generator
to just add the appropriate <link> element to the document, instead of
adding a Link header. Most Atom clients do not look for Link: headers
anyway, so you have to put them in the document if you want them to be
found. Splitting the information between the headers and the document
just makes processing Atom documents more difficult. 

The precise meaning of each link relation should be defined in a way
that doesn't depend on the content type of the variant being returned.
Some of the definitions in the draft are too vague, and when you follow
the references to the more precise definitions, those definitions are
either Atom-specific or HTML-specific. Vague definitions will lead
different people to use the same link relation for different, but
vaguely-similar purposes.

For all those reasons, I actually think it makes a lot more sense for
the Link header registry to be mutually exclusive with the HTML and Atom
registry, instead of attempting to merge them all together.

The current draft says "[A] link relation SHOULD NOT specify what the
context of its use is, although the media type of the dereferenced link
may constrain how it is applied." I don't understand what that means; it
could be read as saying that the precise meaning of the link depends on
the target's media type. Is that what you meant? Could you give an
example?

In the introduction, in explaining the motivation for standardizing the
Link header, the draft says "[T]he status of the Link header is unclear,
leading some to consider minting new application-specific HTTP headers
instead of reusing it." I agree that application-specific HTTP headers
are problematic; however, the Link header only addresses the case where
the application-specific header is a hyperlink; it would be better to
solve the problem more generally.

Also, I think a lot of the discussion about decentralized media types
[1] applies to using URIs for link relations too.

[1]
http://steve.vinoski.net/blog/2008/02/11/more-about-decentralized-media-
types/

Cheers,
Brian

> Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 8:37 AM
> To: Mark Nottingham
> Cc: atom-syntax Syntax
> Subject: Re: Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-http-link-header-01.txt
> 
> 
> Mark,
> 
> overall I think this is a good thing.  However, I am 
> concerned that this 
> would allow for a bunch of new link relations to be used in 
> Atom without 
> a clear understanding of their meaning in that context.  For 
> instance, 
> "index: refers to an index" is not exactly clear and the 
> description in 
> HTML 4.01 doesn't help either "Refers to a document providing 
> an index 
> for the current document."  It is an index of the Atom entry 
> or of the 
> content?  It's not a showstopper, of course, but it is something that 
> should be considered.
> 
> - James
> 



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Thu Apr 24 20:36:23 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F7AC3A6965
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:36:23 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -3.599
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id M9c6vf5kBpu8
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:36:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BFD93A6A89
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:36:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3P3Dsri052931
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:13:54 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3P3DsJH052930;
	Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:13:54 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [216.86.168.178])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3P3DquY052924
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO)
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:13:53 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from mnot@mnot.net)
Received: from [192.168.0.220] (unknown [68.120.110.67])
	(using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits))
	(No client certificate requested)
	by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B1A023E3F4;
	Thu, 24 Apr 2008 23:13:46 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: "'atom-syntax Syntax'" <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Message-Id: <050246F5-6E05-4B60-BA8C-E6E3B8DB4D80@mnot.net>
From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
To: Brian Smith <brian@briansmith.org>
In-Reply-To: <001401c8a579$2485bf30$0202a8c0@T60>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2)
Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-http-link-header-01.txt
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:13:37 -0700
References: <20080317183001.C794D28C10D@core3.amsl.com> <CF45557E-142C-4687-B36D-58F50ADEBA99@mnot.net> <480F5796.4030004@gmail.com> <001401c8a579$2485bf30$0202a8c0@T60>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.919.2)
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>


Brian --

Thanks for the feedback. Replies below...

On 23/04/2008, at 12:35 PM, Brian Smith wrote:
>
> The HTML5 draft document says that Link: headers are to be processed
> according to the definitions given in HTML 5. I vaguely remember that
> the HTML WG (or WHATWG, I forget) wanted to be the authoritative
> reference for all link relations in HTML, they wanted to define how
> conflict are handled, and they even have their own wiki-based  
> registry:
> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/RelExtensions. What did the HTML 5 people
> have to say about shifting the maintenance of the registry to the  
> IESG?

I haven't engaged them yet; they're next on the list.


> Is a Link header is even a good idea for Atom documents? Atom  
> documents
> are almost universally machine-generated, and it is easy for a  
> generator
> to just add the appropriate <link> element to the document, instead of
> adding a Link header. Most Atom clients do not look for Link: headers
> anyway, so you have to put them in the document if you want them to be
> found. Splitting the information between the headers and the document
> just makes processing Atom documents more difficult.

The draft does not advocate removing links from Atom documents to put  
them in headers; rather, the common use case is repeating them in  
headers, so that they can be easily discovered and processed.


> The precise meaning of each link relation should be defined in a way
> that doesn't depend on the content type of the variant being returned.

Yes, that's the point of this approach.


> Some of the definitions in the draft are too vague, and when you  
> follow
> the references to the more precise definitions, those definitions are
> either Atom-specific or HTML-specific. Vague definitions will lead
> different people to use the same link relation for different, but
> vaguely-similar purposes.

Yes. I wanted to get feedback on the overall approach; I know they  
need some work, and I'm open to suggestions for text.


> For all those reasons, I actually think it makes a lot more sense for
> the Link header registry to be mutually exclusive with the HTML and  
> Atom
> registry, instead of attempting to merge them all together.

You're the first person to suggest that. I think we can get to a place  
where there's alignment between the specs without abusing the  
semantics of existing relations. It's certainly worth trying...


> The current draft says "[A] link relation SHOULD NOT specify what the
> context of its use is, although the media type of the dereferenced  
> link
> may constrain how it is applied." I don't understand what that  
> means; it
> could be read as saying that the precise meaning of the link depends  
> on
> the target's media type. Is that what you meant? Could you give an
> example?

A link relation shouldn't say that it's to be used in a particular  
part of a format; that's up to a format to specify.


> In the introduction, in explaining the motivation for standardizing  
> the
> Link header, the draft says "[T]he status of the Link header is  
> unclear,
> leading some to consider minting new application-specific HTTP headers
> instead of reusing it." I agree that application-specific HTTP headers
> are problematic; however, the Link header only addresses the case  
> where
> the application-specific header is a hyperlink; it would be better to
> solve the problem more generally.

Can you expand upon this?


> Also, I think a lot of the discussion about decentralized media types
> [1] applies to using URIs for link relations too.
>
> [1]
> http://steve.vinoski.net/blog/2008/02/11/more-about-decentralized-media-
> types/

It certainly deserves some thought. Some escape hatch is necessary;  
the question is how much its use should be encouraged...

Cheers,



>
>
> Cheers,
> Brian
>
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 8:37 AM
>> To: Mark Nottingham
>> Cc: atom-syntax Syntax
>> Subject: Re: Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-http-link-header-01.txt
>>
>>
>> Mark,
>>
>> overall I think this is a good thing.  However, I am
>> concerned that this
>> would allow for a bunch of new link relations to be used in
>> Atom without
>> a clear understanding of their meaning in that context.  For
>> instance,
>> "index: refers to an index" is not exactly clear and the
>> description in
>> HTML 4.01 doesn't help either "Refers to a document providing
>> an index
>> for the current document."  It is an index of the Atom entry
>> or of the
>> content?  It's not a showstopper, of course, but it is something that
>> should be considered.
>>
>> - James
>>
>


--
Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Thu Apr 24 20:40:08 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 161873A6AC3
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:40:08 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -3.534
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.534 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[AWL=-0.065, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1,
	SARE_RMML_Stock10=0.13]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id h8jstBYdDIm6
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:40:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AB443A69D5
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:40:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3P3FiSA053067
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:15:44 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3P3Fi4A053066;
	Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:15:44 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [216.86.168.178])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3P3FhKH053059
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO)
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:15:43 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from mnot@mnot.net)
Received: from [192.168.0.220] (unknown [68.120.110.67])
	(using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits))
	(No client certificate requested)
	by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2305723E3F6;
	Thu, 24 Apr 2008 23:15:39 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: atom-syntax Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Message-Id: <E78E8D2F-8F1F-490B-8B82-71B66D248693@mnot.net>
From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
To: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <480F5796.4030004@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2)
Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-http-link-header-01.txt
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:15:34 -0700
References: <20080317183001.C794D28C10D@core3.amsl.com> <CF45557E-142C-4687-B36D-58F50ADEBA99@mnot.net> <480F5796.4030004@gmail.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.919.2)
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>


I think this is mostly a consequence of grandfathering in a bunch of  
very old and mostly unused link relations. I'm open to not registering  
those, or registering them as obsolete, specific to HTML, or something  
similar.  Would that do it?

Cheers,


On 23/04/2008, at 8:36 AM, James M Snell wrote:

> Mark,
>
> overall I think this is a good thing.  However, I am concerned that  
> this would allow for a bunch of new link relations to be used in  
> Atom without a clear understanding of their meaning in that  
> context.  For instance, "index: refers to an index" is not exactly  
> clear and the description in HTML 4.01 doesn't help either "Refers  
> to a document providing an index for the current document."  It is  
> an index of the Atom entry or of the content?  It's not a  
> showstopper, of course, but it is something that should be considered.
>
> - James
>
> Mark Nottingham wrote:
>> Hello Atom-ers,
>> I'd like opinions on the draft below; it proposes some changes to  
>> facilitate alignment of the HTML and Atom link relation values and  
>> registries, so that we don't have format-specific link relations.
>> Feedback has been positive so far (mostly on the HTTP list, also in  
>> W3C circles), but since this changes the registry (and otherwise is  
>> so directly related to Atom), it's important that there's buy-in  
>> here as well.
>> Comments?
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
>>> Date: 17 March 2008 11:30:01 AM
>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>>> Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-http-link-header-01.txt
>>> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>>
>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>>> directories.
>>>
>>>
>>>    Title        : HTTP Header Linking
>>>    Author(s)    : M. Nottingham
>>>    Filename    : draft-nottingham-http-link-header-01.txt
>>>    Pages        : 13
>>>    Date        : 2008-3-17
>>>    This document clarifies the status of the Link HTTP header and
>>>  attempts to consolidate link relations in a single registry.
>>>
>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-01.txt
>>>
>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>
>>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
>>> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
>>> Internet-Draft.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> I-D-Announce mailing list
>>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
>>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
>>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>> -- 
>> Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/


--
Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Thu Apr 24 22:32:53 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FFBC3A698F
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 22:32:53 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.049
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.049 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.420,
	BAYES_00=-2.599, SARE_RMML_Stock10=0.13]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id meVHgLWRvIEZ
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Thu, 24 Apr 2008 22:32:52 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B60B3A6C7C
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 22:32:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3P5JBlk061234
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Thu, 24 Apr 2008 22:19:11 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3P5JB01061233;
	Thu, 24 Apr 2008 22:19:11 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.179])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3P5J8UK061221
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 22:19:08 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com)
Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id a25so4266771pyi.11
        for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 22:19:08 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=BwsFHCXbtYRbEf0rgNocXbic0YuQOjmNdHxlIxRb2Zw=;
        b=Z+AJLQnsj3VXROphiksU/6QYi3CLeej/NsS2KdjQR2IvP29OOnHsSuZ+igusRwAD0BEzomiAwNDvwxubEZJCyvTQyFBAj5lC7gta6K90o1s/Y2+NGRGN/xedXze6jMwmKQMwvlSk9rkNeqgq0pzzmMpCCPZaNlAZLhno5Z+tCeI=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        b=e32L8xntctOlRiHFmpj5jH4XW2v+FakS38Ko3ZxQVc6+DCyjV8voQLvbj4nIyxpF+BegTtDeS1ThPQFeI8caJKjg80IwvAG4Dx9eEqU+82055HznjDzNZryb+aPLiRA46Bb9Wx9eprWWTbOHIAtLBD4bWfd1VHjyHa2/iku3wW0=
Received: by 10.35.29.11 with SMTP id g11mr6883165pyj.27.1209100748005;
        Thu, 24 Apr 2008 22:19:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?192.168.2.2? ( [67.181.217.27])
        by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w67sm3785089pyg.20.2008.04.24.22.19.05
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5);
        Thu, 24 Apr 2008 22:19:06 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <481169C8.3080006@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 22:19:04 -0700
From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080227)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
CC: atom-syntax Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-http-link-header-01.txt
References: <20080317183001.C794D28C10D@core3.amsl.com> <CF45557E-142C-4687-B36D-58F50ADEBA99@mnot.net> <480F5796.4030004@gmail.com> <E78E8D2F-8F1F-490B-8B82-71B66D248693@mnot.net>
In-Reply-To: <E78E8D2F-8F1F-490B-8B82-71B66D248693@mnot.net>
X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>


I believe having a flag that indicates whether the relation is specific 
to HTML, Atom, HTTP or any combination there of would be the most 
helpful option.

- James

Mark Nottingham wrote:
> I think this is mostly a consequence of grandfathering in a bunch of 
> very old and mostly unused link relations. I'm open to not registering 
> those, or registering them as obsolete, specific to HTML, or something 
> similar.  Would that do it?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 
> On 23/04/2008, at 8:36 AM, James M Snell wrote:
> 
>> Mark,
>>
>> overall I think this is a good thing.  However, I am concerned that 
>> this would allow for a bunch of new link relations to be used in Atom 
>> without a clear understanding of their meaning in that context.  For 
>> instance, "index: refers to an index" is not exactly clear and the 
>> description in HTML 4.01 doesn't help either "Refers to a document 
>> providing an index for the current document."  It is an index of the 
>> Atom entry or of the content?  It's not a showstopper, of course, but 
>> it is something that should be considered.
>>
>> - James
>>
>> Mark Nottingham wrote:
>>> Hello Atom-ers,
>>> I'd like opinions on the draft below; it proposes some changes to 
>>> facilitate alignment of the HTML and Atom link relation values and 
>>> registries, so that we don't have format-specific link relations.
>>> Feedback has been positive so far (mostly on the HTTP list, also in 
>>> W3C circles), but since this changes the registry (and otherwise is 
>>> so directly related to Atom), it's important that there's buy-in here 
>>> as well.
>>> Comments?
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
>>>> Date: 17 March 2008 11:30:01 AM
>>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-http-link-header-01.txt
>>>> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>>>
>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>>>> directories.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    Title        : HTTP Header Linking
>>>>    Author(s)    : M. Nottingham
>>>>    Filename    : draft-nottingham-http-link-header-01.txt
>>>>    Pages        : 13
>>>>    Date        : 2008-3-17
>>>>    This document clarifies the status of the Link HTTP header and
>>>>  attempts to consolidate link relations in a single registry.
>>>>
>>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-01.txt 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>>
>>>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
>>>> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
>>>> Internet-Draft.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> I-D-Announce mailing list
>>>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
>>>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
>>>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>>> -- 
>>> Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/
> 
> 
> -- 
> Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/
> 
> 



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Tue Apr 29 08:05:38 2008
Return-Path: <owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96FC43A6DF3
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>; Tue, 29 Apr 2008 08:05:38 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: 1.101
X-Spam-Level: *
X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=4.100,
	BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_35=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32])
	by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id MDq8N3hQdgGY
	for <ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com>;
	Tue, 29 Apr 2008 08:05:37 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2])
	by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD0A13A6C2B
	for <atompub-archive@ietf.org>; Tue, 29 Apr 2008 08:05:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3TEnP00095814
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
	Tue, 29 Apr 2008 07:49:25 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m3TEnPwW095813;
	Tue, 29 Apr 2008 07:49:25 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f
Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [216.86.168.179])
	by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3TEnM6f095793
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO)
	for <atom-syntax@imc.org>; Tue, 29 Apr 2008 07:49:25 -0700 (MST)
	(envelope-from brian@briansmith.org)
Received: from T60 (unknown [70.132.141.15])
	(using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits))
	(No client certificate requested)
	by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2C72D04FF;
	Tue, 29 Apr 2008 10:49:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Brian Smith" <brian@briansmith.org>
To: "'Jamie Lokier'" <jamie@shareable.org>, "'Phil Archer'" <parcher@icra.org>
Cc: "'Mark Nottingham'" <mnot@mnot.net>,
        "'atom-syntax Syntax'" <atom-syntax@imc.org>,
        "'HTTP Working Group'" <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
References: <20080317183001.C794D28C10D@core3.amsl.com> <CF45557E-142C-4687-B36D-58F50ADEBA99@mnot.net> <480F5796.4030004@gmail.com> <001401c8a579$2485bf30$0202a8c0@T60> <050246F5-6E05-4B60-BA8C-E6E3B8DB4D80@mnot.net> <003f01c8a8e1$7932a7d0$0202a8c0@T60> <4817018B.8040307@icra.org> <20080429125108.GA10942@shareable.org>
Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-nottingham-http-link-header-01.txt
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 07:49:21 -0700
Message-ID: <002e01c8aa08$36fa6920$0202a8c0@T60>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11
In-Reply-To: <20080429125108.GA10942@shareable.org>
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198
thread-index: Acip97bcCGvYT85eSjufcUB+ukXTywAD8pWw
Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:atom-syntax-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe>
List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org>


Jamie Lokier wrote:
> How about:
> 
>     Generic-Link: URL=value
> 
> Which is required to be written in exactly that form, the URN denotes
> the relation type, and the URN is always unquoted, absolute, and in
> a canonical form.
> 
> It seems to satisfy the same easy parsing and substitution
> requirements that motivate foo-Link, while providing the flexibility
> of URNs for unregistered relation types.

I agree it is seems easier to parse at first. But, you have to change it to
at least the following to support multiple "Generic-Link" headers (See [1]):

     Generic-Link: #(URL=value)

And then you have to disambiguate the commas:

     Generic-Link: #(<URL>=value)

And, even then, there is no mechanism for parameters, which I think it
helpful (especially the "type" parameter).

Regards,
Brian

[1] RFC 2616, Section 4.2:

"Multiple message-header fields with the same field-name MAY be
 present in a message if and only if the entire field-value for that
 header field is defined as a comma-separated list [i.e., #(values)].
 It MUST be possible to combine the multiple header fields into one
 "field-name: field-value" pair, without changing the semantics of the
 message, by appending each subsequent field-value to the first, each
 separated by a comma. The order in which header fields with the same
 field-name are received is therefore significant to the
 interpretation of the combined field value, and thus a proxy MUST NOT
 change the order of these field values when a message is forwarded."