From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jun 3 17:03:05 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D8413A6B4C for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 17:03:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.349 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.349 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.750, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qQOkykRrMPOQ for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 17:02:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDFFF3A6C41 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 17:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m53Npk6W011826 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:51:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m53Npk2n011825; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:51:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [216.86.168.178]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m53NpiWx011817 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:51:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from mnot@mnot.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [216.145.54.158]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DD4F23E3EB for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:51:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <59CE0492-657C-4F71-96DC-5126E3485411@mnot.net> From: Mark Nottingham To: Atom Syntax Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2) Subject: iATOM Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 09:51:39 +1000 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.919.2) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: > What is an ATOM feed? > ATOM is a kind of markup language (XML) that tags news content with =20= > various definitions. For > example, it can be used to tag the main structures of a story =96 the =20= > headline, byline, etc. This tagging > makes it easy for AP to feed members=92 copy into the enrichment =20 > systems. AP=92s iATOM is a variant of > ATOM. It contains the full text of stories, rather than just a link =20= > to the full text. In AP Content > Enrichment, iATOM is the preferred type of feed. > > What is the =93ATOM specification?=94 > It is AP=92s technical specification/description for iATOM, our =20 > preferred method for receiving content. Anybody know anything else about this? Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jun 4 06:26:24 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55E2128C0F8 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 06:26:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cFGkbsE8mMri for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 06:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D453A3A69CB for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 06:26:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m54DBuvn015208 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 4 Jun 2008 06:11:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m54DBuBh015207; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 06:11:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail119.messagelabs.com (mail119.messagelabs.com [216.82.245.51]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id m54DBslj015199 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 06:11:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from Brett.Lindsley@motorola.com) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: Brett.Lindsley@motorola.com X-Msg-Ref: server-10.tower-119.messagelabs.com!1212585109!25767012!1 X-StarScan-Version: 5.5.12.14.2; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [144.189.100.102] Received: (qmail 7628 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2008 13:11:49 -0000 Received: from motgate4.mot.com (HELO motgate4.mot.com) (144.189.100.102) by server-10.tower-119.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 4 Jun 2008 13:11:49 -0000 Received: from az33exr04.mot.com (az33exr04.mot.com [10.64.251.234]) by motgate4.mot.com (8.12.11/Motorola) with ESMTP id m54DBcDa007613 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 06:11:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from az10vts03 (az10vts03.mot.com [10.64.251.244]) by az33exr04.mot.com (8.13.1/Vontu) with SMTP id m54DBbKO029305 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 08:11:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from de01exm66.ds.mot.com (de01exm66.am.mot.com [10.176.8.17]) by az33exr04.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id m54DBZbR029278 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 08:11:36 -0500 (CDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: iATOM Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 09:11:33 -0400 Message-ID: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C02D42B54@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> In-Reply-To: <59CE0492-657C-4F71-96DC-5126E3485411@mnot.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: iATOM Thread-Index: AcjF1peEwl4LuK/XRIKnZdfVoS57dQAbO91A References: <59CE0492-657C-4F71-96DC-5126E3485411@mnot.net> From: "Lindsley Brett-ABL001" To: "Mark Nottingham" , "Atom Syntax" X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: A little Googling turned up this reference: http://www.nexpo.com/handouts/1062_Caluori_Paul__122264_Apr29_2008_Time_ 090233AM.pdf Interesting, they have an iAtom for ingest and an AP-Atom for distribution, but no details on what these are. Brett Lindsley Motorola Labs, Application Research Center -----Original Message----- From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Mark Nottingham Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 6:52 PM To: Atom Syntax Subject: iATOM > What is an ATOM feed? > ATOM is a kind of markup language (XML) that tags news content with =20 > various definitions. For > example, it can be used to tag the main structures of a story - the =20 > headline, byline, etc. This tagging > makes it easy for AP to feed members' copy into the enrichment =20 > systems. AP's iATOM is a variant of > ATOM. It contains the full text of stories, rather than just a link =20 > to the full text. In AP Content > Enrichment, iATOM is the preferred type of feed. > > What is the "ATOM specification?" > It is AP's technical specification/description for iATOM, our =20 > preferred method for receiving content. Anybody know anything else about this? Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jun 4 15:22:29 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 326F73A694B for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:22:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.541 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.541 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.457, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id meJyoEDeClQQ for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C33D3A69AD for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:22:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m54MDXQO035772 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:13:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m54MDX4w035771; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:13:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from e34.co.us.ibm.com (e34.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.152]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m54MDWLh035765 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:13:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brunet@us.ibm.com) Received: from d03relay02.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay02.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.227]) by e34.co.us.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m54MDVK3027442 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:13:31 -0400 Received: from d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (d03av05.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.85]) by d03relay02.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v8.7) with ESMTP id m54MDUK3107734 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 16:13:31 -0600 Received: from d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.1/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m54MDUw0008380 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 16:13:30 -0600 Received: from d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com (d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.142]) by d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.1/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m54MDUWg008377 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 16:13:30 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: looking for atom media feeds X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 7.0 HF277 June 21, 2006 From: Pete Brunet Message-ID: Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:13:29 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D03NM116/03/M/IBM(Release 8.0.1|February 07, 2008) at 06/04/2008 16:13:30, Serialize complete at 06/04/2008 16:13:30 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 007A14A28625745E_=" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 007A14A28625745E_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" In the process of evaluating atom accessibility I'd like to evaluate some non-text, non-html/xhtml atom media feeds. I haven't been able to find any yet. Can someone provide a list of atom media feeds? What are the possible media types I should be looking at? Thanks, Pete Brunet IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758 Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155 Ionosphere: WS4G --=_alternative 007A14A28625745E_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
In the process of evaluating atom accessibility I'd like to evaluate some non-text, non-html/xhtml atom media feeds.  I haven't been able to find any yet.  Can someone provide a list of atom media feeds?  What are the possible media types I should be looking at?

Thanks,
Pete Brunet
                                                                         
IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155
Ionosphere: WS4G
 --=_alternative 007A14A28625745E_=-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jun 4 15:54:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2FF43A69AD for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:54:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.750, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EDNZGa4WLe7x for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:54:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F49F3A6D1A for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m54MjU6L042879 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:45:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m54MjU0j042878; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:45:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id m54MjSP6042863 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:45:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 04 Jun 2008 22:45:27 -0000 Received: from static-87-79-236-202.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [87.79.236.202] by mail.gmx.net (mp009) with SMTP; 05 Jun 2008 00:45:27 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+O285u0meOqyfKI6z5anz2HE3Ngtdnk9ZyTr2o1A y5lOYy1k9qJWRq Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:45:26 +0200 From: Aristotle Pagaltzis To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: looking for atom media feeds Message-ID: <20080604224526.GA23765@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * Pete Brunet [2008-06-05 00:25]: > In the process of evaluating atom accessibility I'd like > to evaluate some non-text, non-html/xhtml atom media feeds. > I haven't been able to find any yet. Can someone provide a > list of atom media feeds? What are the possible media types > I should be looking at? DOAP over Atom comes to mind; has such a feed. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jun 4 22:00:06 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1086E3A6AE3 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:00:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.332 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.332 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.066, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uQFGDC5V0R3P for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E643D3A6A01 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m554o1BJ029879 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:50:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m554o0wo029869; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:50:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from e31.co.us.ibm.com (e31.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.149]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m554nvYP029854 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:49:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brunet@us.ibm.com) Received: from d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.106]) by e31.co.us.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m554nuir002783 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:49:56 -0400 Received: from d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (d03av05.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.85]) by d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v8.7) with ESMTP id m554nu0M105790 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:49:56 -0600 Received: from d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.1/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m554nuv5012915 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:49:56 -0600 Received: from d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com (d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.142]) by d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.1/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m554ntxQ012912 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:49:55 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Atom feeds and accessibility guidelines X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 7.0 HF277 June 21, 2006 From: Pete Brunet Message-ID: Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:49:53 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D03NM116/03/M/IBM(Release 8.0.1|February 07, 2008) at 06/04/2008 22:49:55, Serialize complete at 06/04/2008 22:49:55 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 001A89CE8625745F_=" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 001A89CE8625745F_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Back in January there was a discussion about accessibility guidelines. Brian Smith suggested 3 alternatives: 1) The media could have alternatives embedded 2) There could be n number of links in the feed to alternatives. That would require an extention to Atom (which we shouldn't consider as a limitation for now). 3) Put alternative text in the atom:summary field. Brian felt option 1 was the best. That seems best to me as well (although the summary is also important to describe the feed up front). For embedded alternative media, would the MIME type multipart/alternative be used? Some content files will have multimedia capability, for example a SMIL file. I assume that is handled with the MIME type application/smil+xml and the feed reader would have to be able to activate a SMIL player. Are there any multimedia scenarios that would be problematic? Brian also brought up the case of providing an alternative for a chart, i.e. providing a table containing the source data such as providing HTML for the table. I don't think that belongs in a summary field. It seems like link rel="alternate" to an HTML file containing a table would be a good solution. For some images summary would be useful if a short description would suffice. If a longer textual description is needed would link rel="alternate" to a textual file be the right solution? What should be done when you would like to provide a short description via summary, a long textual description via a link, and a HTML table via a link. It appears that Atom has the restriction of a single rel="alternate" link. Perhaps the HTML could contain both the long description and the table. === log of discussion on atom-syntax mailing list from January === BS: I don't know of any. For media resources (images, video), I would like some guidelines about how to provide accessible alternatives. There are several possibilities already: 1. Many media file formats allow accessible alternatives (descriptive text, captions, alternate audio tracks for non-sighted users, transcripts) to be embedded directly in the media file. 2. An entry can provide use to link to accessible alternatives. This would probably be most useful for media link entries or enclosures (any entry with non-textual content, or out-of-line content). However, we might need separate HTML alternatives for each disability (learning disabilities, vision impairment, hearing impairment), but this isn't really allowed when using ; See section 4.1.2. Due to that limitation, an alternative link relation may be needed. Or, a set of link relations may be useful that help guide users to the correct alternative based on their impairment. For example, rel="large-print", rel="blind", rel="deaf", rel="transcript", rel="captioned". 3. Media link entries or enclosure entries can provide accessible alternatives inline, possible using foreign markup. For example, a media link entry for an image could include alternative text for blind users in the element. However, I think this is bad practice, because it overloads the meaning of , but it is probably better than nothing. JS: Actually, this is one of the main reasons why atom:summary is provided. If the atom:content has binary content, or if it uses the src attribute, the atom:summary element needs to be used to provide a human readable description. It definitely is not bad practice. BS: Let's say that the media resource is a chart. A reasonable summary might be "A rough projection of annual sales, based on sales through July 17th. Contact your department manager if you have questions." An (accessible) alternative would be a HTML table with the data that was used for the chart. A feed reader or editor is likely to provide only a limited amount of space for the summary (see FeedDeamon for example), which makes viewing a table embedded into the summary difficult. For a variety of reasons, summaries usually need to be short, but accessible alternatives may not be compact. Plus, atom:summary cannot be used to provide multiple accessible alternatives for one resource, which is needed to handle different disabilities. For those reasons, atom:summary should be used only as a fallback when no accessible alternative is available. Guidelines for choosing between these mechanisms would be very useful. Also, a mechanism for detecting when accessible alternatives might be out of date would be useful. For example, if somebody updates a video, but didn't update the transcript, that is information that would be helpful for a non-sighted user. if I was blind, I would probably want the ability to subscribe to a feed where the full content of the transcripts/alternative text was inline, instead of linked to using . Pete Brunet IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758 Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155 Ionosphere: WS4G --=_alternative 001A89CE8625745F_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Back in January there was a discussion about accessibility guidelines.  Brian Smith suggested 3 alternatives:

1) The media could have alternatives embedded
2) There could be n number of links in the feed to alternatives.  That would require an extention to Atom (which we shouldn't consider as a limitation for now).
3) Put alternative text in the atom:summary field.

Brian felt option 1 was the best.  That seems best to me as well (although the summary is also important to describe the feed up front).  For embedded alternative media, would the MIME type multipart/alternative be used?  

Some content files will have multimedia capability, for example a SMIL file.  I assume that is handled with the MIME type application/smil+xml and the feed reader would have to be able to activate a SMIL player.

Are there any multimedia scenarios that would be problematic?

Brian also brought up the case of providing an alternative for a chart, i.e. providing a table containing the source data such as providing HTML for the table.  I don't think that belongs in a summary field.  It seems like link rel="alternate" to an HTML file containing a table would be a good solution.  

For some images summary would be useful if a short description would suffice.  If a longer textual description is needed would link rel="alternate" to a textual file be the right solution?

What should be done when you would like to provide a short description via summary, a long textual description via a link, and a HTML table via a link.  It appears that Atom has the restriction of a single rel="alternate" link.  Perhaps the HTML could contain both the long description and the table.

=== log of discussion on atom-syntax mailing list from January ===

BS: I don't know of any. For media resources (images, video), I would like some guidelines about how to provide accessible alternatives. There are several possibilities already:

1. Many media file formats allow accessible alternatives (descriptive text, captions, alternate audio tracks for non-sighted users, transcripts) to be embedded directly in the media file.

2. An entry can provide use <atom:link rel='alternate'> to link to accessible alternatives. This would probably be most useful for media link entries or enclosures (any entry with non-textual content, or out-of-line content). However, we might need separate HTML alternatives for each disability (learning disabilities, vision impairment, hearing impairment), but this isn't really allowed when using <atom:link rel='alternative'>; See section 4.1.2. Due to that limitation, an alternative link relation may be needed. Or, a set of link relations may be useful that help guide users to the correct alternative based on their impairment. For example, rel="large-print", rel="blind",
rel="deaf", rel="transcript", rel="captioned".

3. Media link entries or enclosure entries can provide accessible alternatives inline, possible using foreign markup. For example, a media link entry for an image could include alternative text for blind users in the <atom:summary> element. However, I think this is bad practice, because it overloads the meaning of <atom:summary>, but it is probably better than nothing.

    JS: Actually, this is one of the main reasons why atom:summary is provided.  If the atom:content has binary content, or if it uses the src attribute, the atom:summary element needs to be used to provide a human readable description. It definitely is not bad practice.
    BS: Let's say that the media resource is a chart. A reasonable summary might be "A rough projection of annual sales, based on sales through July 17th. Contact your department manager if you have questions." An (accessible) alternative would be a HTML table with the data that was used for the chart. A feed reader or editor is likely to provide only a limited amount of space for the summary (see FeedDeamon for example), which makes viewing a table embedded into the summary difficult. For a variety of reasons, summaries usually need to be short, but accessible alternatives may not be compact. Plus, atom:summary cannot be used to provide multiple accessible alternatives for one resource, which is needed to handle different disabilities.

For those reasons, atom:summary should be used only as a fallback when no accessible alternative is available.

Guidelines for choosing between these mechanisms would be very useful. Also, a mechanism for detecting when accessible alternatives might be out of date would be useful. For example, if somebody updates a video, but didn't update the transcript, that is information that would be helpful for a non-sighted user.

if I was blind, I would probably want the ability to subscribe to a feed where the full content of the transcripts/alternative text was inline, instead of linked to using <atom:link rel='transcript'/>.

Pete Brunet
                                                                         
IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155
Ionosphere: WS4G
 --=_alternative 001A89CE8625745F_=-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jun 4 22:38:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69F423A6AE3 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:38:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.643 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.643 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.355, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GGth4eT5FP3L for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7E003A6921 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m554pCFt029980 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:51:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m554pCkD029979; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:51:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from e36.co.us.ibm.com (e36.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.154]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m554pAaE029971 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:51:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brunet@us.ibm.com) Received: from d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.106]) by e36.co.us.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m554p8eb030556 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:51:08 -0400 Received: from d03av03.boulder.ibm.com (d03av03.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.169]) by d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v8.7) with ESMTP id m554p843088610 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:51:08 -0600 Received: from d03av03.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av03.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m554p8qo004252 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:51:08 -0600 Received: from d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com (d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.142]) by d03av03.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m554p8KW004249 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:51:08 -0600 In-Reply-To: <20080604224526.GA23765@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> To: atom-syntax@imc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: looking for atom media feeds X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 7.0 HF277 June 21, 2006 From: Pete Brunet Message-ID: Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:51:05 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D03NM116/03/M/IBM(Release 8.0.1|February 07, 2008) at 06/04/2008 22:51:07, Serialize complete at 06/04/2008 22:51:07 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 001AA5DF8625745F_=" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 001AA5DF8625745F_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Aristotle, Thanks for an example of an RDF content type. Actually I am interested in examples of these media types: multipart/alternative, application/smil+xml (or similar multimedia file type), and cases where link rel="alternate" is used to provide an alternate mode of expression, e.g. a transcript for audio content.. And any other cases that are in use to provide accessibility. I'm also interested in examples of normal inaccessible audio and video atom feeds. Pete Brunet IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758 Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155 Ionosphere: WS4G Aristotle Pagaltzis Sent by: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org 06/04/2008 05:45 PM To atom-syntax@imc.org cc Subject Re: looking for atom media feeds * Pete Brunet [2008-06-05 00:25]: > In the process of evaluating atom accessibility I'd like > to evaluate some non-text, non-html/xhtml atom media feeds. > I haven't been able to find any yet. Can someone provide a > list of atom media feeds? What are the possible media types > I should be looking at? DOAP over Atom comes to mind; has such a feed. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // --=_alternative 001AA5DF8625745F_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Aristotle, Thanks for an example of an RDF content type.  Actually I am interested in examples of these media types:  multipart/alternative, application/smil+xml (or similar multimedia file type), and cases where link rel="alternate" is used to provide an alternate mode of expression, e.g. a transcript for audio content..  And any other cases that are in use to provide accessibility.

I'm also interested in examples of normal inaccessible audio and video atom feeds.

Pete Brunet
                                                                         
IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155
Ionosphere: WS4G


Aristotle Pagaltzis <pagaltzis@gmx.de>
Sent by: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org

06/04/2008 05:45 PM

To
atom-syntax@imc.org
cc
Subject
Re: looking for atom media feeds






* Pete Brunet <brunet@us.ibm.com> [2008-06-05 00:25]:
> In the process of evaluating atom accessibility I'd like
> to evaluate some non-text, non-html/xhtml atom media feeds.
> I haven't been able to find any yet. Can someone provide a
> list of atom media feeds? What are the possible media types
> I should be looking at?

DOAP over Atom comes to mind; <http://doapspace.org/newest>
has such a feed.

Regards,
--
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>
--=_alternative 001AA5DF8625745F_=-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jun 4 23:08:29 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D541C3A6D19 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:08:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KEF27BU31QPG for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:08:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02C473A6D48 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:07:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m555gDnp044148 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:42:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m555gDI2044147; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:42:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [216.86.168.178]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m555gC6N044139 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:42:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brian@briansmith.org) Received: from T60 (unknown [70.239.202.106]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C89C23E3EF; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:42:10 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brian Smith" To: "'Pete Brunet'" , References: Subject: RE: Atom feeds and accessibility guidelines Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:42:08 -0700 Message-ID: <001c01c8c6ce$e6b9d480$0202a8c0@T60> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001D_01C8C694.3A5AFC80" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcjGyEVkf97nNrgoRfaoYlE8KGxgpgABDlIQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C8C694.3A5AFC80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pete, I think that the solutions to these problems are probably best found empirically based on feedback from people who need/prefer accessibility enhancements to feeds. I was happy to provide some guesses as to what I thought would work, but I don't have the resources to measure the effectiveness of any solution. I am hoping that your team at IBM, or another team with similar resources, will be able to provide some guidance to feed publishers and tool creators based on usability testing by users with disabilities. My guess is that multipart/alternative content would make things *less* accessible today, not more accessible. My feed reader won't even display entries that have multipart/alternative content and no tools (I know of) will help users author entries as multipart/alternate. I also would guess that users with disabilities would have the most success with (X)HTML content that uses standard HTML accessibility features to enhance multimedia that is embedded within it. In other words, Atom content should be marked up pretty much the same way as a web page. Accessibility for tasks like editing AtomPub media collections (which are usually used to store multimedia content that is linked to from other entries) probably depends mostly on the UI of the client. Whoever builds the first accessible multimedia-publishing AtomPub client will probably set the standards for accessibility based on their usability tests. Regards, Brian ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C8C694.3A5AFC80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Pete,
 
I think = that the=20 solutions to these problems are probably best found empirically based on = feedback from people who need/prefer accessibility enhancements to = feeds. I=20 was happy to provide some guesses as to what I thought would work, but I = don't=20 have the resources to measure the effectiveness of any solution. I am = hoping=20 that your team at IBM, or another team with similar resources, will = be able=20 to provide some guidance to feed publishers and tool creators based = on=20 usability testing by users with disabilities.=20
 
My guess = is that=20 multipart/alternative content would make things *less* accessible today, = not=20 more accessible. My feed reader won't even display entries that have=20 multipart/alternative content and no tools (I know of) will help users = author=20 entries as multipart/alternate. I also would guess that users with = disabilities=20 would have the most success with (X)HTML content that uses standard HTML = accessibility features to enhance multimedia that is embedded within it. = In=20 other words, Atom content should be marked up pretty much the same way = as a web=20 page.
 
Accessibility for=20 tasks like editing AtomPub media collections (which are usually used to = store=20 multimedia content that is linked to from other entries) probably = depends mostly=20 on the UI of the client. Whoever builds the first accessible=20 multimedia-publishing AtomPub client will probably set the standards for = accessibility based on their usability=20 tests.
 
Regards,
Brian
------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C8C694.3A5AFC80-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jun 4 23:40:29 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D95C03A6A31 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:40:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.109 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.109 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h7veq7BAPQJ6 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9A8A28C174 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m556QRtC055039 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:26:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m556QRGx055038; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:26:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc1-s23.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc1-s23.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.95]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m556QPGm055023 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:26:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.152.13]) by bay0-omc1-s23.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:26:25 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:26:25 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 85.211.243.95 by BAY141-DAV3.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 06:26:20 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [85.211.243.95] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: References: Subject: Re: Atom feeds and accessibility guidelines Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 07:24:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Jun 2008 06:26:25.0381 (UTC) FILETIME=[14782150:01C8C6D5] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Peter Brunet: > For embedded alternative media, would the MIME type > multipart/alternative be used? multipart/* media types are not permitted in RFC4287. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jun 5 04:50:19 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DD523A6C8E for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 04:50:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cPCtoWzzepBL for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 04:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F253A6C96 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 04:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m55BeM8T034060 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 5 Jun 2008 04:40:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m55BeM7b034058; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 04:40:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id m55BeKnU034040 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 04:40:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 05 Jun 2008 11:40:19 -0000 Received: from static-87-79-236-202.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [87.79.236.202] by mail.gmx.net (mp044) with SMTP; 05 Jun 2008 13:40:19 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+Z4ncTHl+Z3iTsu5txPRw4RU+ohfwgcF/zBpg85O s9pov9CJF+5cuB Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:40:19 +0200 From: Aristotle Pagaltzis To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: looking for atom media feeds Message-ID: <20080605114019.GB24390@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <20080604224526.GA23765@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hi Pete, * Pete Brunet [2008-06-05 07:00]: > Actually I am interested in examples of these media types: > multipart/alternative, […] multipart/* is forbidden as an Atom payload so you won’t find any such feeds. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jun 5 09:07:32 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1D093A6B1D for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:07:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zlibfj81KSGg for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:07:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D27F28C1A7 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:06:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m55FpGMp091148 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:51:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m55FpG4J091147; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:51:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-out4.apple.com (mail-out4.apple.com [17.254.13.23]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m55FpEqT091137 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:51:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from prabhaka@apple.com) Received: from relay11.apple.com (relay11.apple.com [17.128.113.48]) by mail-out4.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A366A2F76CB2 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay11.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay11.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 8C25B2808D for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:51:14 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807130-ae399bb000000ead-d3-48480b72139b Received: from et.apple.com (et.apple.com [17.151.62.12]) by relay11.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id 5FEAB28082 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (c-67-188-87-166.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.188.87.166]) by et.apple.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0K1Z00GGYYPDUU30@et.apple.com> for atom-syntax@imc.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:51:08 -0700 From: Ernest Prabhakar Subject: Re: looking for atom media feeds In-reply-to: To: Pete Brunet Cc: "atom-syntax@imc.org" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (4A102) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_JsZNu7LegyU2Rzh4O8HGyQ)" References: X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Boundary_(ID_JsZNu7LegyU2Rzh4O8HGyQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi Pete, As mentioned, Atom doesn't support multiparty. It does support multiple enclosures, though. Are there any HTML conventions we could perhaps adopt to identify accessible alternatives? E Sent from my iPhone On Jun 4, 2008, at 21:51, Pete Brunet wrote: > > Aristotle, Thanks for an example of an RDF content type. Actually I > am interested in examples of these media types: multipart/ > alternative, application/smil+xml (or similar multimedia file type), > and cases where link rel="alternate" is used to provide an alternate > mode of expression, e.g. a transcript for audio content.. And any > other cases that are in use to provide accessibility. > > I'm also interested in examples of normal inaccessible audio and > video atom feeds. > > Pete Brunet > > IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development > 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758 > Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155 > Ionosphere: WS4G > > > > Aristotle Pagaltzis > Sent by: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org > 06/04/2008 05:45 PM > > To > atom-syntax@imc.org > cc > Subject > Re: looking for atom media feeds > > > > > > > * Pete Brunet [2008-06-05 00:25]: > > In the process of evaluating atom accessibility I'd like > > to evaluate some non-text, non-html/xhtml atom media feeds. > > I haven't been able to find any yet. Can someone provide a > > list of atom media feeds? What are the possible media types > > I should be looking at? > > DOAP over Atom comes to mind; > has such a feed. > > Regards, > -- > Aristotle Pagaltzis // > > --Boundary_(ID_JsZNu7LegyU2Rzh4O8HGyQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Hi Pete,

As mentioned, Atom doesn't support multiparty. It does support multiple enclosures, though. Are there any HTML conventions we could perhaps adopt to identify accessible alternatives?

E
Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 4, 2008, at 21:51, Pete Brunet <brunet@us.ibm.com> wrote:


Aristotle, Thanks for an example of an RDF content type.  Actually I am interested in examples of these media types:  multipart/alternative, application/smil+xml (or similar multimedia file type), and cases where link rel="alternate" is used to provide an alternate mode of expression, e.g. a transcript for audio content..  And any other cases that are in use to provide accessibility.

I'm also interested in examples of normal inaccessible audio and video atom feeds.

Pete Brunet
                                                                         
IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155
Ionosphere: WS4G


Aristotle Pagaltzis <pagaltzis@gmx.de>
Sent by: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org

06/04/2008 05:45 PM

To
atom-syntax@imc.org
cc
Subject
Re: looking for atom media feeds






* Pete Brunet <brunet@us.ibm.com> [2008-06-05 00:25]:
> In the process of evaluating atom accessibility I'd like
> to evaluate some non-text, non-html/xhtml atom media feeds.
> I haven't been able to find any yet. Can someone provide a
> list of atom media feeds? What are the possible media types
> I should be looking at?

DOAP over Atom comes to mind; <http://doapspace.org/newest>
has such a feed.

Regards,
--
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>
--Boundary_(ID_JsZNu7LegyU2Rzh4O8HGyQ)-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jun 5 13:58:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B7FD3A6819 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:58:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hP9Um5kNY1qp for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:58:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E70D63A68B0 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:58:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m55KhXuZ050943 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:43:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m55KhXQf050942; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:43:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from dizzyd.com (dizzyd.com [207.210.219.225]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m55KhVJF050928 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:43:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from stpeter@stpeter.im) Received: from wrk225.corp.jabber.com (dencfw1.jabber.com [207.182.164.5]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by dizzyd.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3EF3040336; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:41:40 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <48484FF0.5070706@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:43:28 -0600 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1.14) Gecko/20080421 Thunderbird/2.0.0.14 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Smith CC: "'Atom WG'" Subject: Re: [Fwd: I-D Action:draft-saintandre-atomlink-discuss-00.txt] References: <483CCF51.8080504@stpeter.im> <20080528161603.GG3407@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <483D8C58.2060502@stpeter.im> <001201c8c0e7$c5916e40$0202a8c0@T60> <483D9B8B.1000508@gmail.com> <483D9F41.8050404@stpeter.im> <483DE048.7090400@stpeter.im> <006801c8c195$7b98d2c0$0202a8c0@T60> In-Reply-To: <006801c8c195$7b98d2c0$0202a8c0@T60> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms060102050606040908040205" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms060102050606040908040205 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 05/29/2008 8:08 AM, Brian Smith wrote: > "related" should be used when you need to store a link for some > reason and you don't care if/how it is exposed to any users along the > way. Basically, rel="related" should almost never be used. If you > need the UA to display some links to the user then you should put > those links in the atom:content using (X)HTML markup to guarentee (as > much as possible) that they show up (since not all Uas expose > "related" links). If you don't want the UA to display the link then > you should use something other than rel="related" because some UA's > will expose all "related" links. So is it fair to say that Atom link relations are designed for automated use by Atom user agents, not for presentation to human users? If that is the case, then I misunderstood their purpose and it seems that it would be more productive for me to pursue definition of a new link relation for XHTML, not Atom. My apologies for the confusion. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ --------------ms060102050606040908040205 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIYQDCC B3AwggbZoAMCAQICAQowDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEEBQAwgbAxCzAJBgNVBAYTAklMMQ8wDQYDVQQI EwZJc3JhZWwxDjAMBgNVBAcTBUVpbGF0MRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMRowGAYD VQQLExFDQSBBdXRob3JpdHkgRGVwLjEpMCcGA1UEAxMgRnJlZSBTU0wgQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlv biBBdXRob3JpdHkxITAfBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWEmFkbWluQHN0YXJ0Y29tLm9yZzAeFw0wNTA0 MDUxNDUyMTNaFw0xMDA0MDQxNDUyMTNaMIGvMQswCQYDVQQGEwJJTDEPMA0GA1UECBMGSXNy YWVsMRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMSMwIQYDVQQLExpTZWN1cmUgQ2VydGlmaWNh dGUgU2lnbmluZzEvMC0GA1UEAxMmU3RhcnRDb20gQ2xhc3MgMyBQcmltYXJ5IEVtYWlsIEZy ZWUgQ0ExITAfBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWEmFkbWluQHN0YXJ0Y29tLm9yZzCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcN 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( [98.224.93.96]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a2sm5101937pyi.28.2008.06.05.14.02.55 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4848547A.8070801@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:02:50 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080505) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Saint-Andre CC: Brian Smith , "'Atom WG'" Subject: Re: [Fwd: I-D Action:draft-saintandre-atomlink-discuss-00.txt] References: <483CCF51.8080504@stpeter.im> <20080528161603.GG3407@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <483D8C58.2060502@stpeter.im> <001201c8c0e7$c5916e40$0202a8c0@T60> <483D9B8B.1000508@gmail.com> <483D9F41.8050404@stpeter.im> <483DE048.7090400@stpeter.im> <006801c8c195$7b98d2c0$0202a8c0@T60> <48484FF0.5070706@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <48484FF0.5070706@stpeter.im> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 05/29/2008 8:08 AM, Brian Smith wrote: > >> "related" should be used when you need to store a link for some >> reason and you don't care if/how it is exposed to any users along the >> way. Basically, rel="related" should almost never be used. If you >> need the UA to display some links to the user then you should put >> those links in the atom:content using (X)HTML markup to guarentee (as >> much as possible) that they show up (since not all Uas expose >> "related" links). If you don't want the UA to display the link then >> you should use something other than rel="related" because some UA's >> will expose all "related" links. > > So is it fair to say that Atom link relations are designed for automated > use by Atom user agents, not for presentation to human users? > > If that is the case, then I misunderstood their purpose and it seems > that it would be more productive for me to pursue definition of a new > link relation for XHTML, not Atom. > > My apologies for the confusion. I wouldn't agree. Atom link relations can be intended for automated use and/or for presentation to human users. It depends on the definition of the rel attribute. - James > > Peter > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jun 5 16:48:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB4FD3A68D1 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:48:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2XfOLhv-APXj for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC29E3A6906 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:48:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m55Nc9A9087816 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:38:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m55Nc9Ym087815; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:38:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [216.86.168.179]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m55Nc7da087801 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:38:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brian@briansmith.org) Received: from T60 (unknown [70.245.79.169]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2112FD05A0; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:38:06 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brian Smith" To: "'James M Snell'" , "'Peter Saint-Andre'" , References: <483CCF51.8080504@stpeter.im> <20080528161603.GG3407@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <483D8C58.2060502@stpeter.im> <001201c8c0e7$c5916e40$0202a8c0@T60> <483D9B8B.1000508@gmail.com> <483D9F41.8050404@stpeter.im> <483DE048.7090400@stpeter.im> <006801c8c195$7b98d2c0$0202a8c0@T60> <48484FF0.5070706@stpeter.im> <4848547A.8070801@gmail.com> Subject: RE: [Fwd: I-D Action:draft-saintandre-atomlink-discuss-00.txt] Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:38:06 -0700 Message-ID: <000c01c8c765$352a5450$0202a8c0@T60> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <4848547A.8070801@gmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Thread-Index: AcjHUA9qU6/Rr/5oT/a7lJeQeBgJEgADMi0g Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: James M Snell wrote: > I wouldn't agree. Atom link relations can be intended for > automated use and/or for presentation to human users. > It depends on the definition of the rel attribute. I agree with James and Aristotle that some link relations might be "intended" for human users. However, few clients actually present the atom links to users, so the only practical way to ensure the users see them is to put them in the atom:content as HTML links. If you put the links in the content *and* in atom:link elements, then if your users *do* happen to be using a client that exposes the atom links, then they will see each link twice. So, I think we should put links intended for people in atom:content *only* to avoid that redundancy which could lead to confusion. I think you would only want the user to be exposed to a "discuss" link if the client can do something useful with it. In that case, I think it makes sense to mark it up (only) with atom:link. However, your proposal doesn't explain how to do something useful with the link, and that is why it is difficult to see why rel="discuss" adds any value over alternative ways of marking up the link. Regards, Brian From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jun 5 21:29:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9195E3A68F9 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:29:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RPtgntQOKkNd for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:29:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 292003A67E1 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m564Fcpq050742 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:15:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m564Fc67050741; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:15:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from dizzyd.com (dizzyd.com [207.210.219.225]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m564Fbwr050734 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:15:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from stpeter@stpeter.im) Received: from dialup-4.227.193.110.Dial1.Denver1.Level3.net (dialup-4.227.193.110.Dial1.Denver1.Level3.net [4.227.193.110]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by dizzyd.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 12C4840336; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:13:41 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <4848B9E0.6070509@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 22:15:28 -0600 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1.14) Gecko/20080421 Thunderbird/2.0.0.14 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Smith CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: I-D Action:draft-saintandre-atomlink-discuss-00.txt] References: <483CCF51.8080504@stpeter.im> <20080528161603.GG3407@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <483D8C58.2060502@stpeter.im> <001201c8c0e7$c5916e40$0202a8c0@T60> <483D9B8B.1000508@gmail.com> <483D9F41.8050404@stpeter.im> <483DE048.7090400@stpeter.im> <006801c8c195$7b98d2c0$0202a8c0@T60> <48484FF0.5070706@stpeter.im> <4848547A.8070801@gmail.com> <000c01c8c765$352a5450$0202a8c0@T60> In-Reply-To: <000c01c8c765$352a5450$0202a8c0@T60> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms030503040305000309000600" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms030503040305000309000600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 06/05/2008 5:38 PM, Brian Smith wrote: > James M Snell wrote: >> I wouldn't agree. Atom link relations can be intended for >> automated use and/or for presentation to human users. >> It depends on the definition of the rel attribute. > > I agree with James and Aristotle that some link relations might be > "intended" for human users. However, few clients actually present the atom > links to users, so the only practical way to ensure the users see them is to > put them in the atom:content as HTML links. If you put the links in the > content *and* in atom:link elements, then if your users *do* happen to be > using a client that exposes the atom links, then they will see each link > twice. So, I think we should put links intended for people in atom:content > *only* to avoid that redundancy which could lead to confusion. > > I think you would only want the user to be exposed to a "discuss" link if > the client can do something useful with it. In that case, I think it makes > sense to mark it up (only) with atom:link. However, your proposal doesn't > explain how to do something useful with the link, and that is why it is > difficult to see why rel="discuss" adds any value over alternative ways of > marking up the link. Thanks for the clarifications. I'm going to drop the idea for now, since I have many other higher-priority work items to complete, but I may revisit it in the future after I've thought about it more. 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core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 908DE3A6AB9 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:32:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.494 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.494 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.896, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m4-jBTeKsb4n for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:32:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B91133A6A0C for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:32:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m56GKXIX024333 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:20:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m56GKX1a024332; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:20:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from e34.co.us.ibm.com (e34.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.152]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m56GKWMS024317 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:20:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brunet@us.ibm.com) Received: from d03relay02.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay02.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.227]) by e34.co.us.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m56GKVuq024016 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:20:31 -0400 Received: from d03av02.boulder.ibm.com (d03av02.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.168]) by d03relay02.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v9.0) with ESMTP id m56GKGcw177938 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:20:27 -0600 Received: from d03av02.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av02.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m56GKFkQ030780 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:20:15 -0600 Received: from d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com (d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.142]) by d03av02.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m56GKEiv030668 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:20:14 -0600 In-Reply-To: <479EB902.7000701@gmail.com> To: atom-syntax@imc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Atom and accessibility - Atom vs RSS X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 7.0 HF277 June 21, 2006 From: Pete Brunet Message-ID: Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:20:09 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D03NM116/03/M/IBM(Release 8.0.1|February 07, 2008) at 06/06/2008 10:20:14, Serialize complete at 06/06/2008 10:20:14 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0059BB8C86257460_=" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0059BB8C86257460_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" What a11y features does Atom have that RSS doesn't? Pete Brunet IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758 Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155 Ionosphere: WS4G James M Snell Sent by: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org 01/28/2008 11:26 PM To Pete Brunet/Austin/IBM@IBMUS cc atom-syntax@imc.org Subject Re: Atom and accessibility Hey Pete, Glad to see this :-). There are several features of Atom that have been designed with accessibility in mind. 1. Explicitly typed text - title's, summary's, subtitle's, rights, and content are all explicitly typed as either plain text, html, xhtml, xml or some other media type 2. Required text content - title's are required for every entry and textual content in the form of either an atom:summary or atom:content element is required. It is possible for either of these to be empty, but the elements themselves are required, allowing applications to know explicitly whether or not text content has been provided. 3. Language tags - The use of xml:lang attributes allow the language for every piece of text to be explicitly declared. 4. Link titles - The atom:link element has an optional language-sensitive title attribute that is a rough analog to the html img tag's alt attribute. 5. Link href lang - The atom:link element specifies an hreflang attribute that identifies the language of the referenced resource. 6. Link types - The atom:link element specifies a type attribute that identifies the media type of the referenced resource 7. Accessible (x)html embedded in an atom text element or atom:content should continue to remain accessible within the Atom feed. There are a number of areas where accessibility is somewhat inadequate: 1. The atom:icon and atom:logo elements do not have title or type attributes. 2. Despite requirements for the use of atom:title, atom:summary and atom:content, it is possible for an entry to contain zero human-readable text It would be helpful if someone with a strong accessibility background could run some tests on a corpus of atom feeds to see what accessibility issues appear to be most common. As far as I am aware, no such analysis has ever been done. - James Pete Brunet wrote: > > I am interesting in evaluating Atom to determine what the accessibility > needs are. I'd limit this, at least for now, to enhancements to help > blind screen reader users. I'd like to eventually develop a list of > recommendations for improvement, e.g development of new technology or > creating usage guidelines. My primary interest is in relation to the > use of Atom in mashups, for example, a web page may start out being > accessible by using W3C WCAG ( Web content Accessibility Guidelines, see > http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/ ) but by incorporating content via > Atom it may become inaccessible. If you've done any research in this > area or if you have pointers to background material I'd like to hear > from you. I am starting at ground zero with respect to Atom (but have > been in the accessibility field for many years) so it's likely that no > information will be too basic :-) > > Should further discussion related to accessibility take place on this > list or atom-protocol? > > Thanks, > *Pete Brunet* > > IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development > 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758 > Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155 > Ionosphere: WS4G --=_alternative 0059BB8C86257460_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
What a11y features does Atom have that RSS doesn't?

Pete Brunet
                                                                         
IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155
Ionosphere: WS4G


James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
Sent by: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org

01/28/2008 11:26 PM

To
Pete Brunet/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
cc
atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject
Re: Atom and accessibility






Hey Pete,

Glad to see this :-). There are several features of Atom that have been
designed with accessibility in mind.

 1. Explicitly typed text - title's, summary's, subtitle's, rights,
    and content are all explicitly typed as either plain text, html,
    xhtml, xml or some other media type

 2. Required text content - title's are required for every entry and
    textual content in the form of either an atom:summary or
    atom:content element is required.  It is possible for either of
    these to be empty, but the elements themselves are required,
    allowing applications to know explicitly whether or not text
    content has been provided.

 3. Language tags - The use of xml:lang attributes allow the language
    for every piece of text to be explicitly declared.

 4. Link titles - The atom:link element has an optional
    language-sensitive title attribute that is a rough analog to the
    html img tag's alt attribute.

 5. Link href lang - The atom:link element specifies an hreflang
    attribute that identifies the language of the referenced resource.

 6. Link types - The atom:link element specifies a type attribute that
    identifies the media type of the referenced resource

 7. Accessible (x)html embedded in an atom text element or atom:content
    should continue to remain accessible within the Atom feed.

There are a number of areas where accessibility is somewhat inadequate:

 1. The atom:icon and atom:logo elements do not have title or type
    attributes.

 2. Despite requirements for the use of atom:title, atom:summary and
    atom:content, it is possible for an entry to contain zero
    human-readable text

It would be helpful if someone with a strong accessibility background
could run some tests on a corpus of atom feeds to see what accessibility
issues appear to be most common.  As far as I am aware, no such analysis
has ever been done.

- James

Pete Brunet wrote:
>
> I am interesting in evaluating Atom to determine what the accessibility
> needs are.  I'd limit this, at least for now, to enhancements to help
> blind screen reader users.  I'd like to eventually develop a list of
> recommendations for improvement, e.g development of new technology or
> creating usage guidelines.  My primary interest is in relation to the
> use of Atom in mashups, for example, a web page may start out being
> accessible by using W3C WCAG ( Web content Accessibility Guidelines, see
> http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/ ) but by incorporating content via
> Atom it may become inaccessible.  If you've done any research in this
> area or if you have pointers to background material I'd like to hear
> from you.  I am starting at ground zero with respect to Atom (but have
> been in the accessibility field for many years) so it's likely that no
> information will be too basic :-)  
>
> Should further discussion related to accessibility take place on this
> list or atom-protocol?
>
> Thanks,
> *Pete Brunet*
>                                                                          
> IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
> 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
> Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155
> Ionosphere: WS4G
--=_alternative 0059BB8C86257460_=-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jun 6 09:53:33 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87CCB3A6B5C for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:53:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.320, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aWeCg2AzZiWr for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:53:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 091D73A6B3A for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:53:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m56GhcUi029150 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:43:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m56GhckU029149; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:43:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.249]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m56Ghapa029135 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:43:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c35so253629anc.44 for ; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:43:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=0PBkMkhNJi6jXl/ekKA2YKLCpZPgc0DoiAj5C3++VB4=; b=V7PPIfVBdKszjvclyzOjtGsIa65l1okOJFtuGNyLb3bOOrrB+dfpuxw6JV9k5LFzg0 UXnGNvW5Tbo0ifpjluxi++6H/5KN4J0PkaxlNhCe5RqtVARHTQOMGBt02lfYHBFzrcGe VJH3EzD2OWiTgnb6Zrf7CZ6+gcaForcT8NuC8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=ecWltMjg5yD9SP8r9jArH9AvKHngG/PR/4htU1S3gKV85guoy66Gc7mVKiEf1Nn3Mo 9lz2zEHeT1dsWKjaGFNQovuTv/CXyvcqE+lXC2NFNzUO4puqw09XFksNVNz3e8nyF3sw qTBHhy2rZtYDumqDV+kPmvwXIES6C55dYPxmA= Received: by 10.101.68.19 with SMTP id v19mr419419ank.61.1212770616102; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.2.2? ( [98.224.93.96]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w29sm7108133pyg.5.2008.06.06.09.43.28 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4849692D.6040008@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:43:25 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080505) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pete Brunet CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Atom and accessibility - Atom vs RSS References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: There are several challenges with RSS a11y. The most important is that there is significant ambiguity in the RSS content model that makes it difficult (at best) for software to determine automatically whether an entry contains markup or plain text. Content is not explicitly labeled in RSS like it is in Atom. - James Pete Brunet wrote: > > What a11y features does Atom have that RSS doesn't? > > *Pete Brunet* > > IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development > 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758 > Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155 > Ionosphere: WS4G > > > > *James M Snell * > Sent by: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org > > 01/28/2008 11:26 PM > > > To > Pete Brunet/Austin/IBM@IBMUS > cc > atom-syntax@imc.org > Subject > Re: Atom and accessibility > > > > > > > > > > Hey Pete, > > Glad to see this :-). There are several features of Atom that have been > designed with accessibility in mind. > > 1. Explicitly typed text - title's, summary's, subtitle's, rights, > and content are all explicitly typed as either plain text, html, > xhtml, xml or some other media type > > 2. Required text content - title's are required for every entry and > textual content in the form of either an atom:summary or > atom:content element is required. It is possible for either of > these to be empty, but the elements themselves are required, > allowing applications to know explicitly whether or not text > content has been provided. > > 3. Language tags - The use of xml:lang attributes allow the language > for every piece of text to be explicitly declared. > > 4. Link titles - The atom:link element has an optional > language-sensitive title attribute that is a rough analog to the > html img tag's alt attribute. > > 5. Link href lang - The atom:link element specifies an hreflang > attribute that identifies the language of the referenced resource. > > 6. Link types - The atom:link element specifies a type attribute that > identifies the media type of the referenced resource > > 7. Accessible (x)html embedded in an atom text element or atom:content > should continue to remain accessible within the Atom feed. > > There are a number of areas where accessibility is somewhat inadequate: > > 1. The atom:icon and atom:logo elements do not have title or type > attributes. > > 2. Despite requirements for the use of atom:title, atom:summary and > atom:content, it is possible for an entry to contain zero > human-readable text > > It would be helpful if someone with a strong accessibility background > could run some tests on a corpus of atom feeds to see what accessibility > issues appear to be most common. As far as I am aware, no such analysis > has ever been done. > > - James > > Pete Brunet wrote: > > > > I am interesting in evaluating Atom to determine what the accessibility > > needs are. I'd limit this, at least for now, to enhancements to help > > blind screen reader users. I'd like to eventually develop a list of > > recommendations for improvement, e.g development of new technology or > > creating usage guidelines. My primary interest is in relation to the > > use of Atom in mashups, for example, a web page may start out being > > accessible by using W3C WCAG ( Web content Accessibility Guidelines, see > > http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/ ) but by incorporating content via > > Atom it may become inaccessible. If you've done any research in this > > area or if you have pointers to background material I'd like to hear > > from you. I am starting at ground zero with respect to Atom (but have > > been in the accessibility field for many years) so it's likely that no > > information will be too basic :-) > > > > Should further discussion related to accessibility take place on this > > list or atom-protocol? > > > > Thanks, > > *Pete Brunet* > > > > IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development > > 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758 > > Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155 > > Ionosphere: WS4G > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jun 6 10:20:40 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB4263A68D7 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:20:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.224 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.224 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.375, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uZqbMKJS+sSr for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 490323A685E for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m56HAsFC034823 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:10:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m56HAsqR034822; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:10:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id m56HAp2B034816 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:10:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 06 Jun 2008 17:10:49 -0000 Received: from static-87-79-236-202.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [87.79.236.202] by mail.gmx.net (mp011) with SMTP; 06 Jun 2008 19:10:49 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+Zur8JDGuZrr+J8qlgd40F7RgSD521vvaTkczP7d qGf13fXiUQ7DfG Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 19:10:47 +0200 From: Aristotle Pagaltzis To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Atom and accessibility - Atom vs RSS Message-ID: <20080606171047.GE24390@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <479EB902.7000701@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * Pete Brunet [2008-06-06 18:35]: > What a11y features does Atom have that RSS doesn't? Besides the content model, there is also the fact that RSS has no summary/content dichotomy, which allows Atom to transport non- human-readable data (as the content) along with a human-readable alternative form (in the summary). Although you can include multiple kinds of payload elements in RSS (eg. include both a description and content:encoded), all of them have are specified in isolation, so there are no precedence rules to decide which element’s content to use in which context. Furthermore, several RSS elements, such as title, may not contain markup per the spec, and therefore cannot contain such things as ruby annotations. Those are the ones that occur to me off the top of my head. 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It offers excellent quality timepieces at unsurpassed prices; a privacy-assured guarantee, incomparable customer service, and what's better: 15% off when you buy two watches! http://cogewiwavug15.blogspot.com/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jun 6 12:46:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79B053A6D98 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:46:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.854 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.854 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.744, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LnT8SS3Ll10C for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E91B13A6DA9 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:45:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m56JMW4V065910 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:22:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m56JMWRj065909; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:22:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc1-s37.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc1-s37.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.109]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m56JMVvc065891 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:22:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.152.14]) by bay0-omc1-s37.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:22:30 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:22:30 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 85.211.243.95 by BAY141-DAV4.phx.gbl with DAV; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 19:22:27 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [85.211.243.95] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: References: <479EB902.7000701@gmail.com> <20080606171047.GE24390@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> Subject: Re: Atom and accessibility - Atom vs RSS Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 20:20:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Jun 2008 19:22:30.0356 (UTC) FILETIME=[A9C53140:01C8C80A] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote: > Besides the content model, there is also the fact that RSS has no > summary/content dichotomy, which allows Atom to transport non- > human-readable data (as the content) along with a human-readable > alternative form (in the summary). That sounds great in theory, but in practice you're usually way better off with something like this: <img src="boat.jpg" alt="picture of a boat" /> Than you are with something like this: picture of a boat That doesn't apply to all forms of content of course, but if there's an accessible way to represent your data in HTML, then an HTML content element is probably the most interoperable way to syndicate it. > Furthermore, several RSS elements, such as title, may not contain > markup per the spec, and therefore cannot contain such things as > ruby annotations. Out of curiosity, do you know of any Atom feed readers that support ruby annotations in titles? Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jun 6 13:15:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 575AE28C114 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 13:15:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.400, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1ol7pPFJUqhl for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 13:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C2A53A6A68 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 13:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m56K4PC0074501 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 6 Jun 2008 13:04:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m56K4PaX074500; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 13:04:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.227]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m56K4OG2074488 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 13:04:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i31so837923wxd.28 for ; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 13:04:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EFJHhQWb6/8EJBpsJBZAw0AiIdTY1SZGRUk5B2n4S4U=; b=VSJaSoYoAQLK1XGLDwus6DtEnZja2MgLur+Z8rt/SE81PCI9t2440K49INM7UkFF/y gocdUAWs/uoSMC0WEdL2CLaOzjBFJMmR2bW2kCKT3FdR+auoflu5CYWHGSL2rCiBvYAL S/l543kFgW6sJfw1T0uzqhU3Q+L1R3eKuL1DM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=J2TLMTj09ijooQN1Wwof4xA5QDe7tdGvvo66YlWoEXZ46xw4sgT4CkJEvjC3BtWR1c cgX5FtSYjlXRf6xlVw5rNQ3Y4XOhGhcMb6hkx99mR6mzddvxk7stH6YOxlhrchizcbvp M4w9Zn5TStcarSl50LZBgMmjVGLKX649MJcR0= Received: by 10.100.91.17 with SMTP id o17mr765435anb.85.1212782663956; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 13:04:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.2.2? ( [98.224.93.96]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y64sm7385899pyg.22.2008.06.06.13.04.21 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 06 Jun 2008 13:04:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <48499842.2070005@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 13:04:18 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080505) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Holderness CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Atom and accessibility - Atom vs RSS References: <479EB902.7000701@gmail.com> <20080606171047.GE24390@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: While the current limitations of existing readers is important to consider, it's also important to note that the standard supports capabilities that go well beyond what those current readers have chosen to implement, especially given that most of those readers began life as RSS readers. - James James Holderness wrote: > > Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote: >> Besides the content model, there is also the fact that RSS has no >> summary/content dichotomy, which allows Atom to transport non- >> human-readable data (as the content) along with a human-readable >> alternative form (in the summary). > > That sounds great in theory, but in practice you're usually way better > off with something like this: > > > <img src="boat.jpg" alt="picture of a boat" /> > > > Than you are with something like this: > > picture of a boat > > > That doesn't apply to all forms of content of course, but if there's an > accessible way to represent your data in HTML, then an HTML content > element is probably the most interoperable way to syndicate it. > >> Furthermore, several RSS elements, such as title, may not contain >> markup per the spec, and therefore cannot contain such things as >> ruby annotations. > > Out of curiosity, do you know of any Atom feed readers that support ruby > annotations in titles? > > Regards > James > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jun 6 14:00:08 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3DE93A67AD for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:00:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id meshh6TrqEKD for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:00:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F0453A6988 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:00:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m56KpAEq085521 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 6 Jun 2008 13:51:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m56KpALn085520; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 13:51:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id m56Kp7bx085511 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 13:51:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 06 Jun 2008 20:51:07 -0000 Received: from static-87-79-236-202.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [87.79.236.202] by mail.gmx.net (mp044) with SMTP; 06 Jun 2008 22:51:07 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/CXo4bluTCCsBe8sBr2T4UFPzlnAaQn64xxrLzZz Vpj9jv7WZwZpPZ Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 22:51:06 +0200 From: Aristotle Pagaltzis To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Atom and accessibility - Atom vs RSS Message-ID: <20080606205106.GA17586@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <479EB902.7000701@gmail.com> <20080606171047.GE24390@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * James Holderness [2008-06-06 21:35]: > That sounds great in theory, but in practice you're usually way > better off with something like this: As a publisher, yes. For authors of clients, particularly clients intended for a specific purpose, the extent to which other existing clients fail to take advantage of the specified features of the format is of little relevance. > That doesn't apply to all forms of content of course Which is the point. In the cases where it doesn’t apply, RSS offers no way to do it at all. Atom does. > Out of curiosity, do you know of any Atom feed readers that > support ruby annotations in titles? No, but I would not be surprised if some web-based aggregator or other passes titles through with markup intact, or could easily do so by adding the ruby markup elements to a whitelist. Also, as long as major clients do not misinterpret the markup in harmful ways and I had some content to publish that was already annotated, I would include the markup anyway – certainly easier for me than going to the effort of scrubbing them, and it gives serendipity a chance. Staying on the beaten path even when the risk of straying a little is minor is no way to make progress… Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jun 6 16:12:18 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ACC93A67F1 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:12:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.802 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.802 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.196, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zP0AlgYfN8K1 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 190423A6ADB for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:12:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m56MxZhr019333 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 6 Jun 2008 15:59:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m56MxW9i019314; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 15:59:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc2-s41.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc2-s41.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.177]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m56MxSvJ019284 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 15:59:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.152.22]) by bay0-omc2-s41.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 6 Jun 2008 15:59:25 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 15:59:25 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 85.211.243.95 by BAY141-DAV12.phx.gbl with DAV; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 22:59:24 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [85.211.243.95] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: References: <479EB902.7000701@gmail.com> <20080606171047.GE24390@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <20080606205106.GA17586@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> Subject: Re: Atom and accessibility - Atom vs RSS Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 23:59:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Jun 2008 22:59:25.0481 (UTC) FILETIME=[F763A990:01C8C828] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote: > As a publisher, yes. For authors of clients, particularly clients > intended for a specific purpose, the extent to which other > existing clients fail to take advantage of the specified features > of the format is of little relevance. But it *is* relevant - that was my point. It's not much good a feed publisher using some esoteric feature of Atom to make an image feed more accessible to blind users, if at the same time it makes those images invisible to the vast majority of sighted users! I don't meant to imply that there aren't any features of Atom that would be useful for accessibility. I just think publishers need to be careful how they approach this sort of problem. When reading that the Atom *format* is capable of doing X, Y and Z, it's easy to jump to the conclusion that Atom *clients* will also automatically support X, Y and Z. That's often not the case. >> That doesn't apply to all forms of content of course > > Which is the point. In the cases where it doesn’t apply, RSS > offers no way to do it at all. Atom does. I'm not convinced of that. For example, that DOAP feed you posted a while could just as easily be implemented in RSS by embedding a doap:Project block as a child of the item element with a description element for the summary. The advantage of Atom is that it makes content like that somewhat easier to surface via a feed processing API, but ultimately you're still probably going to be writing a custom processor to handle the data. There's not much that you just get for free. > No, but I would not be surprised if some web-based aggregator or > other passes titles through with markup intact, or could easily > do so by adding the ruby markup elements to a whitelist. I would be surprised, which is why I was asking. I'm almost sure most of the major online aggregators (google reader, bloglines, newsgator) strip markup. > Also, as long as major clients do not misinterpret the markup in > harmful ways and I had some content to publish that was already > annotated, I would include the markup anyway I definitely agree with you there. Although feed readers have not had a very good track record when it comes to dealing with markup in the past, I suspect you're pretty safe with most major clients these days. Of course there's always the option of using Unicode interlinear annotation characters when markup is not an option. However, I suspect that's even less likely to be supported than ruby markup, and at least the markup has a decent fallback. Regards James From c.matthews@qls.net.au Fri Jun 6 19:16:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D925C3A68D2; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 19:16:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -79.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-79.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_DIALUP=0.862, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HOST_EQ_DIALUP=0.862, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_SPEC_REPLICA_OBFU=1.812, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX_NOV5A=1.062, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FJu3PHsJ-3th; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 19:16:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from r190-133-129-206.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy (r190-133-129-206.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy [190.133.129.206]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A7A6B3A67FB; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 19:16:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: 80.38.245.6 by smtp.190.133.129.206; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 22:16:52 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Steve Hankins" Reply-To: "Steve Hankins" To: atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Elegant watches for less than half Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 22:16:52 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit The new Porsche Design watches originated from the novel Titanium Chronograph from the 1970's, an absolutely unique creation due to the perfection of its workmanship. Based on its design, the Porsche Design Company developed an appealing, stylish, sporty and highly accurate watch. Unfortunately, these timepieces come with a high price tag. http://zybyfususyh58.blogspot.com/ That's why a clever group of European manufacturers decided to offer the same exact functionality and style at greatly reduced prices: the Porsche Design replica watches. These replicas are so similar to the brand name pieces that it is practically impossible to tell them apart, other than by their price. They look the same, they function the same and they definitely don't have the same prices :) How would you like to browse through an amazing collection of these watches and marvel yourself with their low prices? Visit Prestige Replicas and see for yourself why sometimes replicas are so much better than the originals! http://zybyfususyh58.blogspot.com/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jun 6 20:13:44 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AC383A67F8 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 20:13:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.049 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.049 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PHL7myQIm9-O for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 20:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E6213A67EC for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 20:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m57335a2081279 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 6 Jun 2008 20:03:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m57334Mm081278; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 20:03:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id m57332LF081262 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 20:03:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 07 Jun 2008 03:03:01 -0000 Received: from static-87-79-236-202.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [87.79.236.202] by mail.gmx.net (mp065) with SMTP; 07 Jun 2008 05:03:01 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+F+oIOSF2F2oIsepRHizUsAdU/Hr2YBOi5bX4Jx4 zgtVoESjC16XD/ Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 05:03:00 +0200 From: Aristotle Pagaltzis To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Atom and accessibility - Atom vs RSS Message-ID: <20080607030300.GC17586@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <479EB902.7000701@gmail.com> <20080606171047.GE24390@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <20080606205106.GA17586@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * James Holderness [2008-06-07 01:10]: > Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote: >> As a publisher, yes. For authors of clients, particularly ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> clients intended for a specific purpose, the extent to which >> other existing clients fail to take advantage of the specified >> features of the format is of little relevance. > > But it *is* relevant - that was my point. It's not much good a > feed publisher ^^^^^^^^^ Did you read what I wrote? :-) >> Which is the point. In the cases where it doesn’t apply, RSS >> offers no way to do it at all. Atom does. > > I'm not convinced of that. For example, that DOAP feed you > posted a while could just as easily be implemented in RSS by > embedding a doap:Project block as a child of the item element > with a description element for the summary. > > The advantage of Atom is that it makes content like that > somewhat easier to surface via a feed processing API, but > ultimately you're still probably going to be writing a custom > processor to handle the data. There's not much that you just > get for free. You get a MIME type. You can do what mail clients do. That’s a lot for free. With RSS, all you get is a namespace URI. How useful. (No client actually takes advantage of this, of course, which I find baffling in the extreme. The only plausible explanation I can see is RSS blinders.) Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From c.johnson@pritchettcontrols.com Sat Jun 7 01:20:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6394E3A6A1C; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 01:20:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -68.055 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-68.055 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FS_REPLICA=0.994, FS_REPLICAWATCH=10.357, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_RECV_SPEEDY_AR=0.808, SARE_SPEC_REPLICA_OBFU=1.812, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX_NOV5A=1.062, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gSt+b8+iXDy5; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 01:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 190-51-114-217.speedy.com.ar (unknown [190.51.114.217]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 74C383A6A05; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 01:20:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: 172.160.218.214 by smtp.190.51.114.217; Sat, 07 Jun 2008 04:20:45 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Marty Putnam" <7b@megatron.ietf.org> Reply-To: "Marty Putnam" <7b@megatron.ietf.org> To: 7b@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Replica watches made easy Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 04:20:45 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit A Breitling watch is a statement not just of wealth, but of sophistication... it's a way to show the world that you are a man in charge of your life and that you know exactly what you want. 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It offers excellent quality timepieces at unsurpassed prices; a privacy-assured guarantee, incomparable customer service, and what's better: 15% off when you buy two watches! http://bibizimodyn83.blogspot.com/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jun 7 04:58:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E56433A68F5 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 04:58:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.151 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.151 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.447, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YVTlbK7BJiQo for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 04:58:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83FA63A67DF for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 04:58:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m57Bj6v8009226 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 7 Jun 2008 04:45:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m57Bj66k009225; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 04:45:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc2-s9.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc2-s9.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.145]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m57Bj5ar009219 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 04:45:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.152.20]) by bay0-omc2-s9.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sat, 7 Jun 2008 04:45:05 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 04:45:05 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 85.211.243.95 by BAY141-DAV10.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 07 Jun 2008 11:45:03 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [85.211.243.95] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: References: <479EB902.7000701@gmail.com> <20080606171047.GE24390@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <20080606205106.GA17586@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <20080607030300.GC17586@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> Subject: Re: Atom and accessibility - Atom vs RSS Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 12:44:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jun 2008 11:45:05.0262 (UTC) FILETIME=[EDA1F0E0:01C8C893] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote: > * James Holderness [2008-06-07 01:10]: >> Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote: >>> As a publisher, yes. For authors of clients, particularly > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>> clients intended for a specific purpose, the extent to which >>> other existing clients fail to take advantage of the specified >>> features of the format is of little relevance. > > Did you read what I wrote? :-) Yeah, I realised how idiotic my response was *after* I posted it, but by that point I was too tired out by my rant to post a followup. :) What I should have said was that it's something of a chicken and egg situation. There's not much incentive for clients to support features of Atom that aren't actually used by anyone. And feed publishers are not going to start using the features when they are so poorly supported by clients (especially when using such a feature would have a negative impact on readers). Now, as you've said, there are certain things that may be worth doing (from both a client and server point of view) even if they're not supported, as long as doing so is not actively harmful. But I've been burned by this before (on the client side) - I regret supporting remote image content, given that the only feeds I've seen using it actually work better in aggregators that ignore that content. > You get a MIME type. You can do what mail clients do. That’s a > lot for free. > > With RSS, all you get is a namespace URI. How useful. Funny you should mention that. When I was looking at that DOAP example from earlier I was just thinking how useless the MIME type was, and how the only way you could interpret that content usefully was by looking at the namespace. :) In general you might have a point though. To a large extent it depends on how clients are expected to treat this kind of content. Atom could really have used some guidance for implementors in this area IMHO. If you look at the mail specs (in particular the MIME stuff), they're actually quite explicit about what implementors should do (without be overly stringent). For example, look at the following example atom entries (some elements omitted that aren't relevent to the discussion). A photograph of the Eiffel Tower. <img src="eiffeltower.jpg"/> A photograph of the Eiffel Tower. /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEAYABgAAD/2wBDABALDA4MChAODQ4SERATGCgaGBYWGDEjJR0oOjM9... A photograph of the Eiffel Tower. A photograph of the Eiffel Tower. A photograph of the Eiffel Tower. What exactly is the difference between each of them? Assuming a client is capable of displaying jpeg images, what *should* it do with each of those entries? Assuming it *wasn't* capable of displaying images, what should it do with them? Is the latter case different for a client that doesn't display images for accessibility reasons? As a client author I really would like to know the answers to these questions. It's all very well not wanting to constrain implementations, but if you don't explicitly tell developers what to do, they tend to do nothing; or they all do something different. Either way publishers have no way of knowing what they're going to get, so they tend to stick with the tried and trusted html, even if another choice may have been more appropriate. Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jun 7 05:48:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 299EE3A68FF for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 05:48:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.465 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.465 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_48=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9+SsUoXkiDLA for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 05:48:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECC1A3A682E for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 05:48:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m57CdtPn023169 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 7 Jun 2008 05:39:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m57CdtKi023168; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 05:39:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail1.webfaction.com (mail1.webfaction.com [67.15.2.85]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m57CdrR3023161 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 05:39:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from sh@defuze.org) Received: from [82.229.61.197] (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail1.webfaction.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m57Cdn8Y019395; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 07:39:52 -0500 Message-ID: <484A8190.9040109@defuze.org> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 14:39:44 +0200 From: Sylvain Hellegouarch Reply-To: sh@defuze.org User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080505) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pete Brunet CC: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Atom and accessibility - Atom vs RSS References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Pete Brunet a crit : > > What a11y features does Atom have that RSS doesn't? > > *Pete Brunet* > Personally, I prefer Atom because I find it to be more context free than RSS. Even though Atom rose from blogging requirements the format was cleverly defined so that those requirements don't prevent it to be used elsewhere. Sure it's XML and you can stuff anything you want in any format you like. But it feels less clumsy and more natural with Atom than RSS whenever you're not in a blog context. Aristotle mentioned the seperation between atom:summary and atom:content as one key of the power of Atom, to me atom:link and atom:category elements are even more interesting considering how simple yet powerful they are. Overall I find Atom to dictate less the way I want things to be represented than with RSS. Could be a matter of taste but Atom feels more neutral and therefore easier to adapt. - Sylvain From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jun 7 11:31:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11F063A6B8B for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:31:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6GK+s0IBfmwf for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:31:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF5103A6B1C for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m57IJk2n014328 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:19:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m57IJkNi014326; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:19:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail153.messagelabs.com (mail153.messagelabs.com [216.82.253.51]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id m57IJjIE014295 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:19:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from Brett.Lindsley@motorola.com) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: Brett.Lindsley@motorola.com X-Msg-Ref: server-2.tower-153.messagelabs.com!1212862784!12531495!1 X-StarScan-Version: 5.5.12.14.2; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [129.188.136.8] Received: (qmail 4927 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2008 18:19:44 -0000 Received: from motgate8.mot.com (HELO motgate8.mot.com) (129.188.136.8) by server-2.tower-153.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 2008 18:19:44 -0000 Received: from il06exr01.mot.com (il06exr01.mot.com [129.188.137.131]) by motgate8.mot.com (8.12.11/Motorola) with ESMTP id m57IJg1n026948 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:19:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from il06vts03.mot.com (il06vts03.mot.com [129.188.137.143]) by il06exr01.mot.com (8.13.5/Vontu) with SMTP id m57IJfsX024889 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 13:19:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from de01exm66.ds.mot.com (de01exm66.am.mot.com [10.176.8.17]) by il06exr01.mot.com (8.13.5/8.13.0) with ESMTP id m57IJeZv024883 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 13:19:41 -0500 (CDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Machine Readable Rights For Atom Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:19:38 -0400 Message-ID: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C02D7C26D@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Machine Readable Rights For Atom Thread-Index: AcjIKwK1+rL/7iZkRXmTIQvw8UDV+wAnrIlg References: <479EB902.7000701@gmail.com> <20080606171047.GE24390@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <20080606205106.GA17586@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> From: "Lindsley Brett-ABL001" To: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Has any work been done on machine readable digital rights for Atom? I am looking for something along the lines of ODRL. I noted a few passing comments on it (while Googling) but nothing that seems to have taken shape. Brett Lindsley Motorola Labs, Application Research Lab From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jun 7 11:49:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCE8B3A6B91 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:49:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.342 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.342 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.257, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TxLXtn4HVsbz for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:49:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68E083A6A1D for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:49:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m57Ifcxg020640 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:41:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m57Ifcro020639; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:41:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id m57IfZ55020630 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:41:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 07 Jun 2008 18:41:34 -0000 Received: from static-87-79-236-202.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [87.79.236.202] by mail.gmx.net (mp017) with SMTP; 07 Jun 2008 20:41:34 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX19A+St+VcBAZQBCPvxZthpPvTwOJjuPcTmHXEk9gv IxqSlsqUBswFKG Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:41:33 +0200 From: Aristotle Pagaltzis To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Machine Readable Rights For Atom Message-ID: <20080607184133.GG17586@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <479EB902.7000701@gmail.com> <20080606171047.GE24390@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <20080606205106.GA17586@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C02D7C26D@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C02D7C26D@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * Lindsley Brett-ABL001 [2008-06-07 20:30]: > Has any work been done on machine readable digital rights for > Atom? There’s RFC 4946. That doesn’t make licences machine-readble of course, but I think that concern is orthogonal to Atom anyway. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jun 7 17:12:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 395B23A6810 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 17:12:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E7kdymym6l+v for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 17:12:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07AB73A67FA for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 17:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5802NX6089587 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 7 Jun 2008 17:02:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5802NAq089586; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 17:02:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail153.messagelabs.com (mail153.messagelabs.com [216.82.253.51]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id m5802MZV089571 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 17:02:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from Brett.Lindsley@motorola.com) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: Brett.Lindsley@motorola.com X-Msg-Ref: server-3.tower-153.messagelabs.com!1212883341!8628355!1 X-StarScan-Version: 5.5.12.14.2; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [144.189.100.105] Received: (qmail 7266 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2008 00:02:21 -0000 Received: from motgate5.mot.com (HELO motgate5.mot.com) (144.189.100.105) by server-3.tower-153.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 8 Jun 2008 00:02:21 -0000 Received: from az33exr04.mot.com (az33exr04.mot.com [10.64.251.234]) by motgate5.mot.com (8.12.11/Motorola) with ESMTP id m5802Jdj025256 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 17:02:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from az10vts04.mot.com (az10vts04.mot.com [10.64.251.245]) by az33exr04.mot.com (8.13.1/Vontu) with SMTP id m5802Ika010435 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:02:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from de01exm66.ds.mot.com (de01exm66.am.mot.com [10.176.8.17]) by az33exr04.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id m5802HWp010422 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:02:17 -0500 (CDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Machine Readable Rights For Atom Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:02:15 -0400 Message-ID: <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C02D7C271@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> In-Reply-To: <20080607184133.GG17586@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Machine Readable Rights For Atom Thread-Index: AcjIz2Z61VUuPOJ6T1yRspXaafoZaAAKy7sQ References: <479EB902.7000701@gmail.com> <20080606171047.GE24390@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <20080606205106.GA17586@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <08AA4466F2952341B121759C24993B7C02D7C26D@de01exm66.ds.mot.com> <20080607184133.GG17586@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> From: "Lindsley Brett-ABL001" To: "Aristotle Pagaltzis" , X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: I'm looking for something similar to the OMA mobile profile of ODRL. The = rights could indicate the linked content may be played for 3 days, = played only twice, etc. This capability would require embedding the = rules in the entry and signing it. It also requires trusted agents on = the consumption side as well... Brett -----Original Message----- From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org = [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Aristotle Pagaltzis Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 1:42 PM To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Machine Readable Rights For Atom * Lindsley Brett-ABL001 [2008-06-07 = 20:30]: > Has any work been done on machine readable digital rights for > Atom? There's RFC=A04946. That doesn't make licences machine-readble of course, but I think that concern is orthogonal to Atom anyway. 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Just when you thought Prestige Replicas couldn't get any better, they have improved the perfect watch shopping experience! http://nypuwavyhof86.blogspot.com/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 9 14:49:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94D113A6A55 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2008 14:49:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.582 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.582 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.416, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qU+YqobvAFZW for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2008 14:49:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6624F3A67EF for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2008 14:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m59LdaqF001370 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 9 Jun 2008 14:39:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m59LdaQC001369; Mon, 9 Jun 2008 14:39:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from e32.co.us.ibm.com (e32.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.150]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m59LdYqW001354 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2008 14:39:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brunet@us.ibm.com) Received: from d03relay02.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay02.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.227]) by e32.co.us.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m59LZKqO003959 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2008 17:35:20 -0400 Received: from d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (d03av01.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.167]) by d03relay02.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v9.0) with ESMTP id m59LdWnc165402 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:39:32 -0600 Received: from d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m59LdWIT009009 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:39:32 -0600 Received: from d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com (d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.142]) by d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m59LdWIt008997 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:39:32 -0600 In-Reply-To: To: atom-syntax@imc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: looking for atom media feeds X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 7.0 HF277 June 21, 2006 From: Pete Brunet Message-ID: Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 16:39:16 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D03NM116/03/M/IBM(Release 8.0.1|February 07, 2008) at 06/09/2008 15:39:31, Serialize complete at 06/09/2008 15:39:31 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0076851886257463_=" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0076851886257463_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >It does support multiple enclosures, though. Are there any HTML conventions we could perhaps adopt to identify accessible alternatives? Does anyone have an example of multiple enclosures - or even just a pedagogical example? Regarding the HTML conventions, I'm not aware of any, but perhaps someone else is - or understands the HTML spec well enough to know if conventions are a possibility. Pete Brunet IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758 Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155 Ionosphere: WS4G Ernest Prabhakar 06/05/2008 10:51 AM To Pete Brunet/Austin/IBM@IBMUS cc "atom-syntax@imc.org" Subject Re: looking for atom media feeds Hi Pete, As mentioned, Atom doesn't support multiparty. It does support multiple enclosures, though. Are there any HTML conventions we could perhaps adopt to identify accessible alternatives? E Sent from my iPhone On Jun 4, 2008, at 21:51, Pete Brunet wrote: Aristotle, Thanks for an example of an RDF content type. Actually I am interested in examples of these media types: multipart/alternative, application/smil+xml (or similar multimedia file type), and cases where link rel="alternate" is used to provide an alternate mode of expression, e.g. a transcript for audio content.. And any other cases that are in use to provide accessibility. I'm also interested in examples of normal inaccessible audio and video atom feeds. Pete Brunet IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758 Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155 Ionosphere: WS4G Aristotle Pagaltzis Sent by: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org 06/04/2008 05:45 PM To atom-syntax@imc.org cc Subject Re: looking for atom media feeds * Pete Brunet [2008-06-05 00:25]: > In the process of evaluating atom accessibility I'd like > to evaluate some non-text, non-html/xhtml atom media feeds. > I haven't been able to find any yet. Can someone provide a > list of atom media feeds? What are the possible media types > I should be looking at? DOAP over Atom comes to mind; has such a feed. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // --=_alternative 0076851886257463_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
>It does support multiple enclosures, though. Are there any HTML conventions we could perhaps adopt to identify accessible alternatives?

Does anyone have an example of multiple enclosures - or even just a pedagogical example?

Regarding the HTML conventions, I'm not aware of any, but perhaps someone else is - or understands the HTML spec well enough to know if conventions are a possibility.

Pete Brunet
                                                                         
IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155
Ionosphere: WS4G


Ernest Prabhakar <prabhaka@apple.com>

06/05/2008 10:51 AM

To
Pete Brunet/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
cc
"atom-syntax@imc.org" <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Subject
Re: looking for atom media feeds





Hi Pete,
As mentioned, Atom doesn't support multiparty. It does support multiple enclosures, though. Are there any HTML conventions we could perhaps adopt to identify accessible alternatives?

E
Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 4, 2008, at 21:51, Pete Brunet <brunet@us.ibm.com> wrote:

Aristotle, Thanks for an example of an RDF content type.  Actually I am interested in examples of these media types:  multipart/alternative, application/smil+xml (or similar multimedia file type), and cases where link rel="alternate" is used to provide an alternate mode of expression, e.g. a transcript for audio content..  And any other cases that are in use to provide accessibility.

I'm also interested in examples of normal inaccessible audio and video atom feeds.

Pete Brunet
                                                                       
IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155
Ionosphere: WS4G
Aristotle Pagaltzis <pagaltzis@gmx.de>
Sent by: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org

06/04/2008 05:45 PM


To
atom-syntax@imc.org
cc
Subject
Re: looking for atom media feeds








* Pete Brunet <brunet@us.ibm.com> [2008-06-05 00:25]:
> In the process of evaluating atom accessibility I'd like
> to evaluate some non-text, non-html/xhtml atom media feeds.
> I haven't been able to find any yet. Can someone provide a
> list of atom media feeds? What are the possible media types
> I should be looking at?

DOAP over Atom comes to mind; <http://doapspace.org/newest>
has such a feed.

Regards,
--
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>
--=_alternative 0076851886257463_=-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 9 15:19:35 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE6A03A6CBC for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:19:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.328 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.328 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.070, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_31=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tUs2TtvfpOcb for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6CCE3A6AD5 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:19:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m59LdpA3001432 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 9 Jun 2008 14:39:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m59LdpmW001431; Mon, 9 Jun 2008 14:39:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from e31.co.us.ibm.com (e31.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.149]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m59LdnDx001415 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2008 14:39:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brunet@us.ibm.com) Received: from d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.106]) by e31.co.us.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m59Ldm98017042 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2008 17:39:48 -0400 Received: from d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (d03av01.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.167]) by d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v9.0) with ESMTP id m59LdmJY169436 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:39:48 -0600 Received: from d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m59LdlMj009487 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:39:47 -0600 Received: from d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com (d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.142]) by d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m59LdeTf009264 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:39:47 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: multipart, atompub, and a11y X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 7.0 HF277 June 21, 2006 From: Pete Brunet Message-ID: Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 16:39:31 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D03NM116/03/M/IBM(Release 8.0.1|February 07, 2008) at 06/09/2008 15:39:47, Serialize complete at 06/09/2008 15:39:47 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0076DA3586257463_=" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0076DA3586257463_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Should I be thinking about the a11y of atompub? A little red flag is up=20 for me because of the discussion about=20 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gregorio-atompub-multipart-00 Earlier, on = the list, I asked about if it would make sense to package alternative=20 media using the MIME type multipart/alternative, e.g. both visual and=20 aural representations to assist those who are deaf or blind respectively=20 but got back these responses: >From Aristotle Pagaltzis: multipart/* is forbidden as an Atom payload so=20 you won?t find any such feeds. >From Ernest Prabhakar: As mentioned, Atom doesn't support multiparty. It=20 does support multiple enclosures, though. Are there any HTML conventions=20 we could perhaps adopt to identify accessible alternatives? >From Brian Smith: My guess is that multipart/alternative content would=20 make things *less* accessible today, not more accessible. My feed reader=20 won't even display entries that have multipart/alternative content and no=20 tools (I know of) will help users author entries as multipart/alternate So I wasn't going to think about mutipart any more and focus on file types = like SMIL that have the alternative content embedded. But maybe I still=20 need to think about multipart. What do you think? Pete Brunet =20 IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758 Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155 Ionosphere: WS4G --=_alternative 0076DA3586257463_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Should I be thinking about the a11y of atompub?  A little red flag is up for me because of the discussion about http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gregorio-atompub-multipart-00 Earlie= r, on the list, I asked about if it would make sense to package alternative media using the MIME type multipart/alternative, e.g. both visual and aural representations to assist those who are deaf or blind respectively but got back these responses:
  • From Aristotle Pagaltzis:  mult= ipart/* is forbidden as an Atom payload so you won’t find any such feeds.
  • From Ernest Prabhakar:  As ment= ioned, Atom doesn't support multiparty. It does support multiple enclosures, thoug= h. Are there any HTML conventions we could perhaps adopt to identify accessible alternatives?
  • From Brian Smith:  My guess is that multipart/alternative content would make things *less* accessible today, not more accessible. My feed reader won't even display entries that have multipart/alternative content and no tools (I know of) will help users author entries as multipart/alternate

So I wasn't going to think about mut= ipart any more and focus on file types like SMIL that have the alternative content embedded.  But maybe I still need to think about multipart.  What do you think?

Pete Brunet
                                                                         
IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155
Ionosphere: WS4G
 --=_alternative 0076DA3586257463_=-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jun 10 06:53:10 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6A9E3A6937 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2008 06:53:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E2FzDOV9cxio for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2008 06:53:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 275363A6929 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2008 06:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5ADd6lB038119 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 10 Jun 2008 06:39:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5ADd63N038118; Tue, 10 Jun 2008 06:39:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-04.mxes.net (mxout-04.mxes.net [216.86.168.179]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5ADd40j038104 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2008 06:39:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brian@briansmith.org) Received: from T60 (unknown [70.252.167.21]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 993D9D051F; Tue, 10 Jun 2008 09:39:01 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brian Smith" To: "'Pete Brunet'" , References: Subject: RE: multipart, atompub, and a11y Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 06:39:02 -0700 Message-ID: <598B03AC785E4B568FDAEB3D9823E43A@T60> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01C8CAC4.AC68A8C0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcjKeeC2bRDL7uhjTu6dNuQkFl1f+QAhT9iw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C8CAC4.AC68A8C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit draft-gregorio-atompub-multipart-00 doesn't deal with multipart content; it is a way of using multipart/alternative to combine a POST and a PUT of related resources into a single POST. - Brian _____ From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Pete Brunet Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 2:40 PM To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: multipart, atompub, and a11y Should I be thinking about the a11y of atompub? A little red flag is up for me because of the discussion about http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gregorio-atompub-multipart-00 Earlier, on the list, I asked about if it would make sense to package alternative media using the MIME type multipart/alternative, e.g. both visual and aural representations to assist those who are deaf or blind respectively but got back these responses: * From Aristotle Pagaltzis: multipart/* is forbidden as an Atom payload so you won't find any such feeds. * From Ernest Prabhakar: As mentioned, Atom doesn't support multiparty. It does support multiple enclosures, though. Are there any HTML conventions we could perhaps adopt to identify accessible alternatives? * From Brian Smith: My guess is that multipart/alternative content would make things *less* accessible today, not more accessible. My feed reader won't even display entries that have multipart/alternative content and no tools (I know of) will help users author entries as multipart/alternate So I wasn't going to think about mutipart any more and focus on file types like SMIL that have the alternative content embedded. But maybe I still need to think about multipart. What do you think? Pete Brunet IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758 Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155 Ionosphere: WS4G ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C8CAC4.AC68A8C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
draft-gregorio-atompub-multipart-00 doesn't deal with multipart content; it is a = way of=20 using multipart/alternative to combine a POST and a PUT of=20 related resources into a single POST.
 
- Brian

From: = owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org=20 [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Pete=20 Brunet
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 2:40 PM
To:=20 atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: multipart, atompub, and=20 a11y


Should I be thinking = about the=20 a11y of atompub?  A little red flag is up for me because of the=20 discussion about=20 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gregorio-atompub-multipart-00 = Earlier, on the=20 list, I asked about if it would make sense to package alternative = media using=20 the MIME type multipart/alternative, e.g. both visual and aural=20 representations to assist those who are deaf or blind respectively but = got=20 back these responses:
  • From Aristotle Pagaltzis: =  multipart/*=20 is forbidden as an Atom payload so you won’t find any such = feeds.=20
  • From Ernest Prabhakar:  As = mentioned,=20 Atom doesn't support multiparty. It does support multiple = enclosures,=20 though. Are there any HTML conventions we could perhaps adopt to = identify=20 accessible alternatives?=20
  • From Brian Smith:  My = guess is that=20 multipart/alternative content would make things *less* accessible = today, not=20 more accessible. My feed reader won't even display entries that have = multipart/alternative content and no tools (I know of) will help = users=20 author entries as multipart/alternate

So I wasn't going to think about mutipart = any more and=20 focus on file types like SMIL that have the alternative content = embedded.=20  But maybe I still need to think about multipart.  What do = you=20 think?

Pete Brunet
              =  =20                     =  =20                     =  =20              
IBM Accessibility = Architecture and=20 Development
11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX = 78758
Voice:=20 (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155
Ionosphere:=20 WS4G
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But don't let this limited time offer go by... spring is ending and it's time to impress your friends with a realistic, high quality Rolex replica watch, that will look and perform just like the real deal! http://pavyhocefez34.blogspot.com/ From c.frank@wildstyleinc.com Thu Jun 12 00:47:09 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C5C23A67DD; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 00:47:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -70.573 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-70.573 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, FS_REPLICA=0.994, FS_REPLICAWATCH=10.357, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_SPEC_REPLICA_OBFU=1.812, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX_NOV5A=1.062, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 47vtJk-Psb82; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 00:47:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp-58-8-10-226.revip2.asianet.co.th (ppp-58-8-10-226.revip2.asianet.co.th [58.8.10.226]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id CE0EF3A6819; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 00:47:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: 82.50.44.228 by smtp.58.8.10.226; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 03:47:32 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Jerrod Lawson" Reply-To: "Jerrod Lawson" To: atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Why replica watches are better Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 03:47:32 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit A Breitling watch is a statement not just of wealth, but of sophistication... it's a way to show the world that you are a man in charge of your life and that you know exactly what you want. 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It offers excellent quality timepieces at unsurpassed prices; a privacy-assured guarantee, incomparable customer service, and what's better: 15% off when you buy two watches! http://gerepehixin26.blogspot.com/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jun 12 06:13:30 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 393063A6904 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 06:13:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NJ9UbxpnyZ2y for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 06:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA2133A6ACF for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 06:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5CD4VWY065978 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 12 Jun 2008 06:04:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5CD4Vfi065977; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 06:04:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-bedford.mitre.org (smtp-bedford.mitre.org [129.83.20.191]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5CD4TkP065963; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 06:04:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pauld@mitre.org) Received: from smtp-bedford.mitre.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-bedford.mitre.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m5CD4Sww026825; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:04:29 -0400 Received: from IMCFE1.MITRE.ORG (imcfe1.mitre.org [129.83.29.3]) by smtp-bedford.mitre.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m5CD4SPR026821; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:04:28 -0400 Received: from MM138572-PC.mitre.org ([172.31.141.104]) by IMCFE1.MITRE.ORG with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:04:28 -0400 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:04:25 -0400 To: James M Snell , atom-protocol , atom-syntax From: Paul Denning Subject: Re: Future of the Atom Features Draft In-Reply-To: <482C4DB3.9070100@gmail.com> References: <482C4DB3.9070100@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jun 2008 13:04:28.0296 (UTC) FILETIME=[D8B00080:01C8CC8C] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At 10:50 AM 2008-05-15, James M Snell wrote: >The Atom Features Draft has expired. There was some interest expressed >in having it moved forward but there was no solid consensus formed >around the approach. At this point, I don't really have the time or >need to move it forward (the original need for which it was developed >has evolved). Can someone elaborate or point me to something to explain the original need and what it has evolved to? Paul > If anyone else feels that it is an important thing to >move forward, I will gladly hand over the xml of the source doc and will >offer input however I can. > >- James > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jun 12 07:26:37 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D452C28C101 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 07:26:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.956 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.956 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.043, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_37=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1SIGET7yl5cQ for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 07:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A18A43A686D for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 07:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5CEIjgx079606 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 12 Jun 2008 07:18:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5CEIioL079600; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 07:18:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from yx-out-1718.google.com (yx-out-1718.google.com [74.125.44.157]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5CEIhI0079592 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 07:18:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by yx-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 36so406590yxh.4 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 07:18:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1nZbDTlqSFd9BucvfsuE9N0CXpQPc+lMHEyytETi44o=; b=TqsWB2ioSG+KkbAazbggaX2VN6Q/CE/iGOLV7NwiDONrxUUWo0mbdP4Fuq1XrS5eDj 6aPMhF+IRIU+K8/fRNdGqgDgOMtfwNWZ51dMZEE/qBOef5xFIhgNEuUDvygj/fT4Vbs0 5HIHnhgwMNbbRMMajaEh6Zn0ArROnv8tzm960= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=ryST3OsSv9D2Xqb8l+4UVlVvtaQrC0KtxPx4rKm30Ox9GG9hlyejxJbyZR3MJs8SC/ Ayh7srwFKth3twe6a9GS4v7qPDnKsyqj+rbPwASx4MyJdachndlQqzyCB9QiO35tb5yc w6pVB0um+s4qKETmGPkruZHk4C/JSplVL1Pr0= Received: by 10.150.204.8 with SMTP id b8mr2524189ybg.75.1213280322805; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 07:18:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.2.2? ( [98.224.93.96]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y64sm2590574pyg.22.2008.06.12.07.18.41 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 12 Jun 2008 07:18:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4851303E.8000602@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 07:18:38 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080505) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Denning CC: atom-protocol , atom-syntax Subject: Re: Future of the Atom Features Draft References: <482C4DB3.9070100@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: The core Atompub spec gives server implementations a broad set of options to choose from. For instance, a server can choose to allow plain text title's in entries but not html or xhtml titles. A server could choose to accept multiple categories or just a single category. A server could choose to allow post-dated entries by allowing the client to include a future atom:published date. A server could choose to support any combination of extension elements or app:control elements to achieve a wide variety of behaviors. The list goes on. The original need for the features draft was to provide a mechanism for servers to communicate implementation choices to a client so that the client could do the right thing when interacting with the service. The main challenge is that we were never really able to get consensus around the spec and I no longer have time to put much attention on it because of other, higher priority projects. - James Paul Denning wrote: > At 10:50 AM 2008-05-15, James M Snell wrote: > >> The Atom Features Draft has expired. There was some interest expressed >> in having it moved forward but there was no solid consensus formed >> around the approach. At this point, I don't really have the time or >> need to move it forward (the original need for which it was developed >> has evolved). > > Can someone elaborate or point me to something to explain the original > need and what it has evolved to? > > Paul > >> If anyone else feels that it is an important thing to >> move forward, I will gladly hand over the xml of the source doc and will >> offer input however I can. >> >> - James >> >> >> > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jun 12 09:18:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 752C93A683E for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:18:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.735 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.735 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.537, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nWLAv4jBlSwD for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A7343A6823 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:18:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5CG7OOb000389 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:07:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5CG7Og8000388; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:07:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from e33.co.us.ibm.com (e33.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.151]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5CG7MSR000372 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:07:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brunet@us.ibm.com) Received: from d03relay05.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay05.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.107]) by e33.co.us.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m5CG7Js2015560 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 12:07:19 -0400 Received: from d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (d03av01.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.167]) by d03relay05.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v9.0) with ESMTP id m5CG740p112980 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 10:07:05 -0600 Received: from d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m5CG74Kv025976 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 10:07:04 -0600 Received: from d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com (d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.142]) by d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m5CG74XK025965 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 10:07:04 -0600 In-Reply-To: <001c01c8c6ce$e6b9d480$0202a8c0@T60> To: atom-syntax@imc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: Atom feeds and accessibility guidelines X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 7.0 HF277 June 21, 2006 From: Pete Brunet Message-ID: Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 11:07:02 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D03NM116/03/M/IBM(Release 8.0.1|February 07, 2008) at 06/12/2008 10:07:03, Serialize complete at 06/12/2008 10:07:03 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 005887D986257466_=" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 005887D986257466_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Thanks Brian. My assessment so far is that there are no a11y holes in the spec for the feed syntax. Regarding media I'd point authors at a document from NCAM (National Center for Accessible Multimedia), "Accessible Digital Media Design Guidelines for Electronic Publications, Multimedia and the Web" at http://ncam.wgbh.org/publications/adm/ and in particular, "Guideline H, Provide access to multimedia presentations for users with sensory disabilities." at http://ncam.wgbh.org/publications/adm/guideline_h.html. Does that sound adequate? If I create some guidelines, and I probably will, I can use refer to the NCAM document and I can use the list from James Snell at http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg20349.html >From that list some of the a11y issues are already mandatory: 1. Explicitly typed text - title's, summary's, subtitle's, rights, and content are all explicitly typed as either plain text, html, xhtml, xml or some other media type 2. Required text content - title's are required for every entry and textual content in the form of either an atom:summary or atom:content element is required. It is possible for either of these to be empty, but the elements themselves are required, allowing applications to know explicitly whether or not text content has been provided. And some would need to be in the guidelines: 3. Language tags - The use of xml:lang attributes allow the language for every piece of text to be explicitly declared. 4. Link titles - The atom:link element has an optional language-sensitive title attribute that is a rough analog to the html img tag's alt attribute. 5. Link href lang - The atom:link element specifies an hreflang attribute that identifies the language of the referenced resource. 6. Link types - The atom:link element specifies a type attribute that identifies the media type of the referenced resource 7. Accessible (x)html embedded in an atom text element or atom:content should continue to remain accessible within the Atom feed Is there something about item 2 that should be mentioned in a guidelines document? Regarding the AtomPub spec, is there is a list of accessibility features such as the list James provided? I'm also interested what the community feels are the accessibility advantages of AtomPub over the RSS equivalent(s). Pete Brunet IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758 Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155 Ionosphere: WS4G "Brian Smith" Sent by: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org 06/05/2008 12:42 AM To Pete Brunet/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, cc Subject RE: Atom feeds and accessibility guidelines Pete, I think that the solutions to these problems are probably best found empirically based on feedback from people who need/prefer accessibility enhancements to feeds. I was happy to provide some guesses as to what I thought would work, but I don't have the resources to measure the effectiveness of any solution. I am hoping that your team at IBM, or another team with similar resources, will be able to provide some guidance to feed publishers and tool creators based on usability testing by users with disabilities. My guess is that multipart/alternative content would make things *less* accessible today, not more accessible. My feed reader won't even display entries that have multipart/alternative content and no tools (I know of) will help users author entries as multipart/alternate. I also would guess that users with disabilities would have the most success with (X)HTML content that uses standard HTML accessibility features to enhance multimedia that is embedded within it. In other words, Atom content should be marked up pretty much the same way as a web page. Accessibility for tasks like editing AtomPub media collections (which are usually used to store multimedia content that is linked to from other entries) probably depends mostly on the UI of the client. Whoever builds the first accessible multimedia-publishing AtomPub client will probably set the standards for accessibility based on their usability tests. Regards, Brian --=_alternative 005887D986257466_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Thanks Brian.  My assessment so far is that there are no a11y holes in the spec for the feed syntax.  Regarding media I'd point authors at a document from NCAM (National Center for Accessible Multimedia), "Accessible Digital Media Design Guidelines for Electronic Publications, Multimedia and the Web" at http://ncam.wgbh.org/publications/adm/ and in particular, "Guideline H, Provide access to multimedia presentations for users with sensory disabilities." at http://ncam.wgbh.org/publications/adm/guideline_h.html.  Does that sound adequate?

If I create some guidelines, and I probably will, I can use refer to the NCAM document and I can use the list from James Snell at http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg20349.html

From that list some of the a11y issues are already mandatory:

 1. Explicitly typed text - title's, summary's, subtitle's, rights,
    and content are all explicitly typed as either plain text, html,
    xhtml, xml or some other media type

 2. Required text content - title's are required for every entry and
    textual content in the form of either an atom:summary or
    atom:content element is required.  It is possible for either of
    these to be empty, but the elements themselves are required,
    allowing applications to know explicitly whether or not text
    content has been provided.

And some would need to be in the guidelines:

 3. Language tags - The use of xml:lang attributes allow the language
    for every piece of text to be explicitly declared.

 4. Link titles - The atom:link element has an optional
    language-sensitive title attribute that is a rough analog to the
    html img tag's alt attribute.

 5. Link href lang - The atom:link element specifies an hreflang
    attribute that identifies the language of the referenced resource.

 6. Link types - The atom:link element specifies a type attribute that
    identifies the media type of the referenced resource

 7. Accessible (x)html embedded in an atom text element or atom:content
    should continue to remain accessible within the Atom feed

Is there something about item 2 that should be mentioned in a guidelines document?

Regarding the AtomPub spec, is there is a list of accessibility features such as the list James provided?

I'm also interested what the community feels are the accessibility advantages of AtomPub over the RSS equivalent(s).

Pete Brunet
                                                                         
IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155
Ionosphere: WS4G


"Brian Smith" <brian@briansmith.org>
Sent by: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org

06/05/2008 12:42 AM

To
Pete Brunet/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, <atom-syntax@imc.org>
cc
Subject
RE: Atom feeds and accessibility guidelines





Pete,
 
I think that the solutions to these problems are probably best found empirically based on feedback from people who need/prefer accessibility enhancements to feeds. I was happy to provide some guesses as to what I thought would work, but I don't have the resources to measure the effectiveness of any solution. I am hoping that your team at IBM, or another team with similar resources, will be able to provide some guidance to feed publishers and tool creators based on usability testing by users with disabilities.
 
My guess is that multipart/alternative content would make things *less* accessible today, not more accessible. My feed reader won't even display entries that have multipart/alternative content and no tools (I know of) will help users author entries as multipart/alternate. I also would guess that users with disabilities would have the most success with (X)HTML content that uses standard HTML accessibility features to enhance multimedia that is embedded within it. In other words, Atom content should be marked up pretty much the same way as a web page.
 
Accessibility for tasks like editing AtomPub media collections (which are usually used to store multimedia content that is linked to from other entries) probably depends mostly on the UI of the client. Whoever builds the first accessible multimedia-publishing AtomPub client will probably set the standards for accessibility based on their usability tests.
 
Regards,
Brian
--=_alternative 005887D986257466_=-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jun 12 11:21:55 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBE5A3A69DD for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 11:21:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Os0kdrYibufP for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 11:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31BD93A6A0B for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 11:21:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5CICG4g033025 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 12 Jun 2008 11:12:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5CICG8l033022; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 11:12:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chilco.textdrive.com (chilco.textdrive.com [207.7.108.242]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5CICFMl033005 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 11:12:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: from [192.168.3.166] (87-198-172-217.ptr.magnet.ie [87.198.172.217]) by chilco.textdrive.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1525CDD30B for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 18:12:14 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <485166F8.3040901@dehora.net> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 19:12:08 +0100 From: Bill de hOra User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080505) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Atom feeds and accessibility guidelines References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Pete Brunet wrote: > Regarding the AtomPub spec, is there is a list of accessibility features > such as the list James provided? > > I'm also interested what the community feels are the accessibility > advantages of AtomPub over the RSS equivalent(s). Assuming you mean RFC5023, here's one. Every time you post to an AtomPub server you get a link back and not just an ok. This means you can drive basic follow-on action via links, such as "view your comment". This can't be done in a number of proprietary posting systems I've seen. Having hypertext links at every publishing step is a fundamentally good feature, and not just for accessibility. Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jun 12 15:05:40 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F7C83A6AE2 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:05:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.286 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.286 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.112, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bTw5Lq4UdyVS for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B1FE3A6AAB for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:05:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5CLrqow076786 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 12 Jun 2008 14:53:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5CLrq5w076785; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 14:53:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from e35.co.us.ibm.com (e35.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.153]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5CLrobl076769 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 14:53:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brunet@us.ibm.com) Received: from d03relay02.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay02.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.227]) by e35.co.us.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m5CLro2T010043 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 17:53:50 -0400 Received: from d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (d03av05.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.85]) by d03relay02.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v9.0) with ESMTP id m5CLrkfn171448 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:53:49 -0600 Received: from d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.1/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m5CLrkjZ017295 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:53:46 -0600 Received: from d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com (d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.142]) by d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.1/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m5CLrkw1017292 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:53:46 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: fully featured atom readers X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 7.0 HF277 June 21, 2006 From: Pete Brunet Message-ID: Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 16:53:45 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D03NM116/03/M/IBM(Release 8.0.1|February 07, 2008) at 06/12/2008 15:53:46, Serialize complete at 06/12/2008 15:53:46 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0078461886257466_=" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0078461886257466_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Which Atom enabled feed readers are the most fully featured? For example, I haven't found any that use atom:icon or atom:logo. And Looking at http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/1801.atomapi I see a bunch of SVG that I don't see any readers rendering, at least the ones that I have tried (Bloglines, Google Reader, Thunderbird, and some others I've forgotten the names of). Thanks, Pete Brunet IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758 Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155 Ionosphere: WS4G --=_alternative 0078461886257466_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Which Atom enabled feed readers are the most fully featured?  For example, I haven't found any that use atom:icon or atom:logo.  And Looking at http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/1801.atomapi I see a bunch of SVG that I don't see any readers rendering, at least the ones that I have tried (Bloglines, Google Reader, Thunderbird, and some others I've forgotten the names of).

Thanks,
Pete Brunet
                                                                         
IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155
Ionosphere: WS4G
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Visit Prestige Replicas and see for yourself why sometimes replicas are so much better than the originals! http://dipetawumaz71.blogspot.com/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jun 13 16:20:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1953F3A6983 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:20:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.94 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.94 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.058, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8adIF2sJU4Jt for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13B9C3A6969 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5DN6XOD083918 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:06:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5DN6X7F083917; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:06:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bay0-omc2-s10.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc2-s10.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.146]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5DN6VkW083910 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:06:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j4_james@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.152.18]) by bay0-omc2-s10.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:06:30 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:06:30 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 85.211.250.78 by BAY141-DAV8.phx.gbl with DAV; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 23:06:29 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [85.211.250.78] X-Originating-Email: [j4_james@hotmail.com] X-Sender: j4_james@hotmail.com From: "James Holderness" To: References: Subject: Re: fully featured atom readers Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 00:06:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jun 2008 23:06:30.0655 (UTC) FILETIME=[1DB450F0:01C8CDAA] Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Pete Brunet wrote: > Which Atom enabled feed readers are the most fully featured? For > example, I haven't found any that use atom:icon or atom:logo. I know of at least three that support atom:logo - Awasu, Internet Explorer and Firefox (in the feed preview). Regards James From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jun 13 17:00:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0074A3A6A2E for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 17:00:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.374 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.374 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.225, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7rbanKF9sPUB for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 17:00:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C0233A696E for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 17:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5DNlJux093636 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:47:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5DNlJsu093635; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:47:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id m5DNlH2p093619 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:47:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 13 Jun 2008 23:47:16 -0000 Received: from static-87-79-236-202.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [87.79.236.202] by mail.gmx.net (mp060) with SMTP; 14 Jun 2008 01:47:16 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/Tq1IJsw3TL7r3XRhaXTWvzdGNK+6udMw7xyw/xR 9hwr4eRf3vI2T+ Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 01:47:15 +0200 From: Aristotle Pagaltzis To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: fully featured atom readers Message-ID: <20080613234715.GM25433@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * Pete Brunet [2008-06-13 00:05]: > And Looking at http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/1801.atomapi I > see a bunch of SVG that I don't see any readers rendering Liferea will do that, as long as you’re using an HTML rendering backend that supports SVG (all the Gecko variants and possibly also the WebKit backend). Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 16 06:40:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F00863A6AC5 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 06:40:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y2tvRGxe3EOU for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 06:40:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31A013A682F for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 06:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5GDOvJR096044 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 16 Jun 2008 06:24:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5GDOvQV096037; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 06:24:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chilco.textdrive.com (chilco.textdrive.com [207.7.108.242]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5GDOuMw096025 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 06:24:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from bill@dehora.net) Received: from [192.168.3.166] (87-198-172-217.ptr.magnet.ie [87.198.172.217]) by chilco.textdrive.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93AA6DD4E5 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 13:24:55 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <485669A1.3020008@dehora.net> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 14:24:49 +0100 From: Bill de hOra User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080505) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Syntax Subject: visibility/privacy extensions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hi, are there any format or category extensions for stating view privacy or moderation levels on content or feeds? ) Bill From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 16 08:18:44 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5415F3A6927 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:18:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.261 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.261 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.338, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oYSUbdWiK6tg for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:18:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A7803A6920 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:18:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5GF3Sxl032703 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:03:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5GF3Sa6032702; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:03:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from yw-out-1718.google.com (yw-out-1718.google.com [74.125.46.154]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5GF3Q3X032694 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:03:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by yw-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 5so3114743ywr.4 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:03:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=X7+9NI8y6R05259byWgWHmQU9r/7U9e9IHHQoDXDC3w=; b=i7jjxWMD7zSE+6X6fc6u+G//Y1R42rioiCjKxzljsWdoPTJ00Yn7tvbXG1/P1oh8JS KeF/uQOJjJF9N9JlvPevEsIZJC6I5SUDtdOqf90baVdPsd89SQi+8s0yfpJPxHfSsW7M nLirQ8+3bYX8HzrsgGlpK9pZNDgmiNVN8yDSU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=qo3SK/c3cZ/5GTJIN182Fh7dYsoPZnaGtT/0rOBBUb5Bq78o+4U66RzhvZtur+bk+m A0yb3YIlBYvv2qiWqlhtIwnmdPAgQUPnQ7jtWjabe/vgzu+JOhM0dNuIxgJofGgcTBrX PcHFcbA5btvoNq19jxy2xhl46ybLkM4eUDnTI= Received: by 10.150.136.6 with SMTP id j6mr10945194ybd.133.1213628602684; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:03:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.2.2? ( [98.224.93.96]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z80sm34336pyg.31.2008.06.16.08.02.31 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:03:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <48568052.5050108@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:01:38 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080505) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill de hOra CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: visibility/privacy extensions References: <485669A1.3020008@dehora.net> In-Reply-To: <485669A1.3020008@dehora.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In Connections, we've adopted a category based "flags" mechanisms, e.g. It is essentially a boolean flag. If the term "private" is included in the entry, the entry is private, otherwise it's not. The "flags" scheme contains a number of other types of flags relevant to the entry. So far, this has worked reasonably well for us. - James Bill de hOra wrote: > > Hi, > > are there any format or category extensions for stating view privacy or > moderation levels on content or feeds? ) > > Bill > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 16 09:17:32 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 925B53A6915 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 09:17:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_48=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4Ft-LGN1qLAD for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 09:17:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 537BE3A691E for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 09:17:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5GFsUCt049153 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:54:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5GFsUhE049149; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:54:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from harpo.laits.utexas.edu (harpo.laits.utexas.edu [128.83.27.7]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5GFsSmE049119 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:54:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pkeane@harpo.laits.utexas.edu) Received: from harpo.laits.utexas.edu (harpo.laits.utexas.edu [127.0.0.1]) by harpo.laits.utexas.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5GFs8GW016652; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:54:08 -0500 Received: (from pkeane@localhost) by harpo.laits.utexas.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m5GFs8fw016651; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:54:08 -0500 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:54:08 -0500 From: Peter Keane To: James M Snell Cc: Bill de hOra , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: visibility/privacy extensions Message-ID: <20080616155408.GB14045@harpo.laits.utexas.edu> References: <485669A1.3020008@dehora.net> <48568052.5050108@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <48568052.5050108@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In our project, similarly to Connections, we use: I'd be v. interested to know what other folks do, esp. if there is an opportunity for standardization. In fact, I could see real utility in some semi-formal way to register category schemes and terms. As has been noted [1][2], atom:category has the potential to be quite a powerful exension mechanism, getting us a "description framework" without having to use RDF (not that there's anything wrong w/ RDF ;-)). --peter keane [1]http://torrez.us/archives/2006/05/25/447/ [2]http://www.majordojo.com/2006/05/overloading-atomcategory.php#c12851 On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 08:01:38AM -0700, James M Snell wrote: > > In Connections, we've adopted a category based "flags" mechanisms, e.g. > > > > It is essentially a boolean flag. If the term "private" is included in the > entry, the entry is private, otherwise it's not. The "flags" scheme > contains a number of other types of flags relevant to the entry. So far, > this has worked reasonably well for us. > > - James > > Bill de hOra wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> are there any format or category extensions for stating view privacy or >> moderation levels on content or feeds? ) >> >> Bill >> >> From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 16 09:50:26 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFED23A6920 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 09:50:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.765 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.765 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, J_CHICKENPOX_48=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LQkyE6pdJBbl for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 09:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57C393A65A5 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 09:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5GGaW3O063675 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 16 Jun 2008 09:36:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5GGaWBW063674; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 09:36:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail1.webfaction.com (mail1.webfaction.com [67.15.2.85]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5GGaUYI063665 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 09:36:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from sh@defuze.org) Received: from [82.229.61.197] (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail1.webfaction.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m5GGaNHj026807; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:36:27 -0500 Message-ID: <485695E6.4060204@defuze.org> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 18:33:42 +0200 From: Sylvain Hellegouarch Reply-To: sh@defuze.org User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080505) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Keane CC: James M Snell , Bill de hOra , Atom Syntax Subject: Re: visibility/privacy extensions References: <485669A1.3020008@dehora.net> <48568052.5050108@gmail.com> <20080616155408.GB14045@harpo.laits.utexas.edu> In-Reply-To: <20080616155408.GB14045@harpo.laits.utexas.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Peter Keane a crit : > In our project, similarly to Connections, we use: > > > > I'd be v. interested to know what other folks do, esp. if there is an > opportunity for standardization. In fact, I could see real utility in > some semi-formal way to register category schemes and terms. As has been > noted [1][2], atom:category has the potential to be quite a powerful > exension mechanism, getting us a "description framework" without having > to use RDF (not that there's anything wrong w/ RDF ;-)). > I don't know if trying to register category schemes is the right approach but I am too using atom:category elements for that particular topic. The combination of scheme+term offers a very granular way of specifying a context in which a resource may be processed. - Sylvain > --peter keane > > [1]http://torrez.us/archives/2006/05/25/447/ > [2]http://www.majordojo.com/2006/05/overloading-atomcategory.php#c12851 > > > On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 08:01:38AM -0700, James M Snell wrote: >> In Connections, we've adopted a category based "flags" mechanisms, e.g. >> >> >> >> It is essentially a boolean flag. If the term "private" is included in the >> entry, the entry is private, otherwise it's not. The "flags" scheme >> contains a number of other types of flags relevant to the entry. So far, >> this has worked reasonably well for us. >> >> - James >> >> Bill de hOra wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> are there any format or category extensions for stating view privacy or >>> moderation levels on content or feeds? ) >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 16 14:19:54 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 253363A698D for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 14:19:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_48=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IICLQULL4wrD for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 14:19:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84D6F3A695A for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 14:19:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5GL4gGX053944 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 16 Jun 2008 14:04:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5GL4gib053939; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 14:04:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from yw-out-1718.google.com (yw-out-1718.google.com [74.125.46.156]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5GL4epG053911 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 14:04:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from erlingwl@gmail.com) Received: by yw-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 5so3215462ywr.4 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 14:04:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=kM78mIHGS2yujgEQy2yDnkDCFng2Unmq1Kl9PAlzS48=; b=mk8oUNrinLHSNXp8xoJ5OxoGixs7UuMhAh1tYJ2pA7d99vF0Vax3DKPlzzvNwsqw65 ib7Rdrz+PWIDlkfW/Wxn4y3RuqZi53iqcSXHW2ezYku6zDW3NBEvi22GEIxx7DRFv9rX 3Bu87ax8oYwJ01zbzA+omye5wLTuobStcrQas= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=id53e3BANYfWRPOek73MRLreEfZXPDsJoBJQtGr5WCBCTDmcgWuJDQhTMWfFwFxCOD 0CAWpz7YgHDs1MUc7g0bHmcWjQqC3Su5Q/Q2SwLnBmKTo99KvTgcubZA3ERMHrGWvj9Q mWz/AQVC9pgBXdgQzBlo/pg4j/f9HbivIUMb8= Received: by 10.150.136.13 with SMTP id j13mr1905704ybd.19.1213650279861; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 14:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.134.5 with HTTP; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 14:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9f0578290806161404v547d2c01v9de9e0edeab4c03b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 23:04:39 +0200 From: "Erling Wegger Linde" To: "Atom Syntax" Subject: Re: visibility/privacy extensions In-Reply-To: <20080616155408.GB14045@harpo.laits.utexas.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <485669A1.3020008@dehora.net> <48568052.5050108@gmail.com> <20080616155408.GB14045@harpo.laits.utexas.edu> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 5:54 PM, Peter Keane wrote: > > In our project, similarly to Connections, we use: > > > > I'd be v. interested to know what other folks do, esp. if there is an > opportunity for standardization. In fact, I could see real utility in > some semi-formal way to register category schemes and terms. As has been > noted [1][2], atom:category has the potential to be quite a powerful > exension mechanism, getting us a "description framework" without having > to use RDF (not that there's anything wrong w/ RDF ;-)). >From an outsider, just watching this list from time to time: Why not use RDF? Isn't RDF more general? Could these categories be used anywhere outside of Atom? I'm not very familiar with the atom:category(ies) so I ask: can atom:categories be referred to / used in a meaningful way with RDF? E.g. can you either use URIs e.g. "http://.../flags#private" or "http://.../flags/private" to refer to them? Or could one create a general approach for using GRDDL ( http://research.talis.com/2006/grddl-wg/primer ) ? If you cannot, then I think this approach will be a dead end in a few years, agree? If there is one thing I think Atom is missing is a standardized way to combine it with RDF. Why not try to use RDF when you can, not try to avoid it? Thanks, - Erling > > --peter keane > > [1]http://torrez.us/archives/2006/05/25/447/ > [2]http://www.majordojo.com/2006/05/overloading-atomcategory.php#c12851 > > > On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 08:01:38AM -0700, James M Snell wrote: >> >> In Connections, we've adopted a category based "flags" mechanisms, e.g. >> >> >> >> It is essentially a boolean flag. If the term "private" is included in the >> entry, the entry is private, otherwise it's not. The "flags" scheme >> contains a number of other types of flags relevant to the entry. So far, >> this has worked reasonably well for us. >> >> - James >> >> Bill de hOra wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> are there any format or category extensions for stating view privacy or >>> moderation levels on content or feeds? ) >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> > > -- Med vennlig hilsen Erling Wegger Linde From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Mon Jun 16 23:28:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 194F03A6A2A for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 23:28:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.215 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.215 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.450, BAYES_00=-2.599, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, J_CHICKENPOX_48=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LaUktnSlFJhs for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 23:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B29D43A6853 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 23:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5H6Di9g062030 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 16 Jun 2008 23:13:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5H6DimR062028; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 23:13:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail1.webfaction.com (mail1.webfaction.com [67.15.2.85]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5H6DglJ062012 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2008 23:13:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from sh@defuze.org) Received: from [82.229.61.197] (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail1.webfaction.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m5H6Ddse022777; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 01:13:40 -0500 Message-ID: <48575568.8000103@defuze.org> Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 08:10:48 +0200 From: Sylvain Hellegouarch Reply-To: sh@defuze.org User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080505) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Erling Wegger Linde CC: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: visibility/privacy extensions References: <485669A1.3020008@dehora.net> <48568052.5050108@gmail.com> <20080616155408.GB14045@harpo.laits.utexas.edu> <9f0578290806161404v547d2c01v9de9e0edeab4c03b@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <9f0578290806161404v547d2c01v9de9e0edeab4c03b@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Erling Wegger Linde a crit : > On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 5:54 PM, Peter Keane wrote: >> In our project, similarly to Connections, we use: >> >> >> >> I'd be v. interested to know what other folks do, esp. if there is an >> opportunity for standardization. In fact, I could see real utility in >> some semi-formal way to register category schemes and terms. As has been >> noted [1][2], atom:category has the potential to be quite a powerful >> exension mechanism, getting us a "description framework" without having >> to use RDF (not that there's anything wrong w/ RDF ;-)). > >>From an outsider, just watching this list from time to time: Why not > use RDF? Isn't RDF more general? Could these categories be used > anywhere outside of Atom? > > I'm not very familiar with the atom:category(ies) so I ask: can > atom:categories be referred to / used in a meaningful way with RDF? Unless I'm mistaken, they are URIs so yes I'd say a client that is built with such purpose could make sense of those elements. > E.g. can you either use URIs e.g. "http://.../flags#private" or > "http://.../flags/private" to refer to them? Or could one create a > general approach for using GRDDL ( > http://research.talis.com/2006/grddl-wg/primer ) ? If you cannot, then > I think this approach will be a dead end in a few years, agree? No I don't. Could you explain? I actually believe atom:category elements have the basic minimum that someone may be looking for when adding a context to a resource. > > If there is one thing I think Atom is missing is a standardized way to > combine it with RDF. Why not try to use RDF when you can, not try to > avoid it? I don't understand what you mean by standardizing RDF with Atom. If someone is interested in using RDF inside Atom can't they just do so already? Or do you mean mapping the Atom model to the RDF data model? Looking at the GRRDL Primer specification it looks like it's a transformation mechanism of a source document to a RDF representation. Is there any showstopper from the RDF community to already create such specification for consuming Atom documents? More fundamentally my *personal* issue here is that RDF has chosen a top-down approach by saying "We needed a mechanism to enable meaningful consuming of heterogeneous resources" so they defined RDF and gradually offered simpler mechanisms to allow the profane to join the RDF world (like GRRDL Primer). Atom on the other hand has followed a bottom-up path and been about "Let's have the lowest entry barrier we can and gradually add more complex mechanisms if they are needed". But because the base format is well defined you can make an Atom document already meaningful on its own. - Sylvain > > Thanks, > - Erling > >> --peter keane >> >> [1]http://torrez.us/archives/2006/05/25/447/ >> [2]http://www.majordojo.com/2006/05/overloading-atomcategory.php#c12851 >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 08:01:38AM -0700, James M Snell wrote: >>> In Connections, we've adopted a category based "flags" mechanisms, e.g. >>> >>> >>> >>> It is essentially a boolean flag. If the term "private" is included in the >>> entry, the entry is private, otherwise it's not. The "flags" scheme >>> contains a number of other types of flags relevant to the entry. So far, >>> this has worked reasonably well for us. >>> >>> - James >>> >>> Bill de hOra wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> are there any format or category extensions for stating view privacy or >>>> moderation levels on content or feeds? ) >>>> >>>> Bill >>>> >>>> >> > > > From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jun 17 01:04:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 404B63A6A68 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 01:04:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GIVqhwWPO-GH for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 01:04:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A29C33A6A44 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 01:04:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5H7mIPa097631 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Jun 2008 00:48:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5H7mIN6097630; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 00:48:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zone5.gridzones.com (zone5.gridzones.com [216.18.236.32]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5H7mHSx097603 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 00:48:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: from bblfish.home (ALagny-152-1-17-42.w83-112.abo.wanadoo.fr [83.112.143.42]) (authenticated bits=0) by zone5.gridzones.com (8.13.8/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m5H7lacn008344 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Jun 2008 00:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Cc: Erling Wegger Linde , Atom Syntax Message-Id: From: Story Henry To: sh@defuze.org In-Reply-To: <48575568.8000103@defuze.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-78--841560637; micalg=sha1; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Subject: Re: visibility/privacy extensions Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 09:47:20 +0200 References: <485669A1.3020008@dehora.net> <48568052.5050108@gmail.com> <20080616155408.GB14045@harpo.laits.utexas.edu> <9f0578290806161404v547d2c01v9de9e0edeab4c03b@mail.gmail.com> <48575568.8000103@defuze.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.91.1, clamav-milter version 0.91.1 on zone5.gridzones.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-78--841560637 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Linde, There is some work on GRDDLing atom. One of them is here https://sommer.dev.java.net/atom/ David Powell is working on an XSLT1 transform for another ontology. The atom group as a whole tends not to be very interested in these discussions, as they open up a painful history of years of debate that started with very early versions of RSS, and a good deal of confusion and misunderstanding all over. RDF is very powerful. So it is better to spend time working on solutions that reveal that aspect of things. All the rest is GRDDLable. Henry On 17 Jun 2008, at 08:10, Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote: > > I don't understand what you mean by standardizing RDF with Atom. If > someone is interested in using RDF inside Atom can't they just do so > already? Or do you mean mapping the Atom model to the RDF data model? > > Looking at the GRRDL Primer specification it looks like it's a > transformation mechanism of a source document to a RDF > representation. Is there any showstopper from the RDF community to > already create such specification for consuming Atom documents? > > More fundamentally my *personal* issue here is that RDF has chosen a > top-down approach by saying "We needed a mechanism to enable > meaningful consuming of heterogeneous resources" so they defined RDF > and gradually offered simpler mechanisms to allow the profane to > join the RDF world (like GRRDL Primer). Atom on the other hand has > followed a bottom-up path and been about "Let's have the lowest > entry barrier we can and gradually add more complex mechanisms if > they are needed". But because the base format is well defined you > can make an Atom document already meaningful on its own. --Apple-Mail-78--841560637 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGLzCCAugw ggJRoAMCAQICEBWASm0nQHFDo++JronHWNcwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkEx JTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQ ZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBMB4XDTA3MDgyMTE3NDI0OVoXDTA4MDgyMDE3NDI0 OVowSTEfMB0GA1UEAxMWVGhhd3RlIEZyZWVtYWlsIE1lbWJlcjEmMCQGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYXaGVu cnkuc3RvcnlAYmJsZmlzaC5uZXQwggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDTd30+ k6huUDsckx6Gdw6rzJ18f96HQBScRhfZdomgEAGI9isL3d622Lyd1u6B8A9fVasxwDwcgVg/1OG7 ObZjAsZY19zzO6ogCqsPVTzfJq7Zr+pdKSQLS4Vbv9GMEcuL2PtBZ3k4rFtH200dgi78MhIQTvE8 0EmprzwatcMmpatuWoaBaVTc0eSda2rGAos2y+eWfGNFkAnyS1OMvHzSzUgIJBMZw9SuPWwL6xg+ GPVWZRKcKmUaUnXcr+ZsRu8OQjPFuLW0nNQ3DQVSd+uhldqjt6pDpZbxHaDjgpjNaJ5Ikq4jLYgZ 3BHxd031yqIBFc8YZqVkDhdL81ATek07AgMBAAGjNDAyMCIGA1UdEQQbMBmBF2hlbnJ5LnN0b3J5 QGJibGZpc2gubmV0MAwGA1UdEwEB/wQCMAAwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQADgYEAqLdyw7jb1fPzVS/B xR7DZIYFs+b38kuo1X5MFH/UWy0D4+F6VbJxqJdXnBizkFhose7x6GdxVlELdcl2NyQG3795dV3l eIG5IA9PaXEIPucwd9JgxuNwVW6jX0EsUl8ZtKEQxzRfGFyzCxGflN2JBYTN7//cTmDK++KMwawx njEwggM/MIICqKADAgECAgENMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMIHRMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTEVMBMGA1UE CBMMV2VzdGVybiBDYXBlMRIwEAYDVQQHEwlDYXBlIFRvd24xGjAYBgNVBAoTEVRoYXd0ZSBDb25z dWx0aW5nMSgwJgYDVQQLEx9DZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIFNlcnZpY2VzIERpdmlzaW9uMSQwIgYDVQQD ExtUaGF3dGUgUGVyc29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgQ0ExKzApBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWHHBlcnNvbmFsLWZy ZWVtYWlsQHRoYXd0ZS5jb20wHhcNMDMwNzE3MDAwMDAwWhcNMTMwNzE2MjM1OTU5WjBiMQswCQYD VQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMj VGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwgZ8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADgY0A MIGJAoGBAMSmPFVzVftOucqZWh5owHUEcJ3f6f+jHuy9zfVb8hp2vX8MOmHyv1HOAdTlUAow1wJj WiyJFXCO3cnwK4Vaqj9xVsuvPAsH5/EfkTYkKhPPK9Xzgnc9A74r/rsYPge/QIACZNenprufZdHF KlSFD0gEf6e20TxhBEAeZBlyYLf7AgMBAAGjgZQwgZEwEgYDVR0TAQH/BAgwBgEB/wIBADBDBgNV HR8EPDA6MDigNqA0hjJodHRwOi8vY3JsLnRoYXd0ZS5jb20vVGhhd3RlUGVyc29uYWxGcmVlbWFp bENBLmNybDALBgNVHQ8EBAMCAQYwKQYDVR0RBCIwIKQeMBwxGjAYBgNVBAMTEVByaXZhdGVMYWJl bDItMTM4MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAA4GBAEiM0VCD6gsuzA2jZqxnD3+vrL7CF6FDlpSdf0whuPg2 H6otnzYvwPQcUCCTcDz9reFhYsPZOhl+hLGZGwDFGguCdJ4lUJRix9sncVcljd2pnDmOjCBPZV+V 2vf3h9bGCE6u9uo05RAaWzVNd+NWIXiC3CEZNd4ksdMdRv9dX2VPMYIDEDCCAwwCAQEwdjBiMQsw CQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UE AxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0ECEBWASm0nQHFDo++JronHWNcw CQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAW8wGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG9w0BCQUxDxcN MDgwNjE3MDc0NzIwWjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUAkUoTjLsdp9csiP4Qbyyv5QXhGUwgYUGCSsG AQQBgjcQBDF4MHYwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQ dHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAhAV gEptJ0BxQ6Pvia6Jx1jXMIGHBgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzF4oHYwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNV BAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25h bCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAhAVgEptJ0BxQ6Pvia6Jx1jXMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUABIIB AJpjUaySi+QCkQ98DgiPLYPjAb5YodbfcmWcOADm5oLJpaY4pxvCaMhDO8/67ImQ0ZInoR36iHGL kp+Yb+Ml+BU8wOFrBBuemcO4hw09UTXe9F1da+z1n5pzfYkxJy18SUDO3n52+oqMaXYca2CHU/Xy KtVeRm4RXnXTiIxnEZFaP0iAAKGSNE6nHAj4oJXL0y0ue/8cLeWClqBJf9DfaxJ4I8sHSywF11xW lZsDQ9ULFtdt4oSx5hEUr5Ph44h6D19bQvvgtcnRPhKvvUHn8LOtLqGVcQRp8AIsJF8OGs3VKzg3 aRnvhWGZpRFgSEAsLzqmTYeH9qfQzmicO4Z5xAAAAAAAAAA= --Apple-Mail-78--841560637-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jun 17 01:48:19 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E30A33A6A51 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 01:48:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_48=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EwTYOJ0BbzrS for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 01:48:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86A973A692F for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 01:48:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5H8TjSC013710 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Jun 2008 01:29:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5H8TjUs013709; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 01:29:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id m5H8ThdN013684 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 01:29:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 17 Jun 2008 08:29:41 -0000 Received: from static-87-79-236-202.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [87.79.236.202] by mail.gmx.net (mp026) with SMTP; 17 Jun 2008 10:29:41 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX18b6M46GHobIMWpOWC+7wYmzKjWumzBo0ro695sGq B7BmPuOrLQUQpW Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:29:41 +0200 From: Aristotle Pagaltzis To: Atom Syntax Subject: Re: visibility/privacy extensions Message-ID: <20080617082941.GY25433@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> Mail-Followup-To: Atom Syntax References: <485669A1.3020008@dehora.net> <48568052.5050108@gmail.com> <20080616155408.GB14045@harpo.laits.utexas.edu> <9f0578290806161404v547d2c01v9de9e0edeab4c03b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <9f0578290806161404v547d2c01v9de9e0edeab4c03b@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * Erling Wegger Linde [2008-06-16 23:15]: > Why not use RDF? Isn't RDF more general? Yes, which makes it more demanding to process properly. If Atom was specified in terms of RDF, you can bet that the same thing would happen as it did with RSS 1.0: aggregators would parse the RDF as XML, instead of building a graph out of it, and would therefore break if anyone actually used Atom as RDF, eg. changing the precise XML serialisation or adding triples in unexpected places. As I found out when I changed the namespace prefix bindings in my feed, even just using Atom as actual XML will break a whole bunch of naïve Atom parsers! I don’t like this reality, but reality has a way of not caring about whether I like it or not… > Could these categories be used anywhere outside of Atom? Not as it’s written. > I'm not very familiar with the atom:category(ies) so I ask: can > atom:categories be referred to / used in a meaningful way with > RDF? An atom:category is basically a rudimentary shorthand for writing an RDF triple (where the Entry is always the subject). > Why not try to use RDF when you can, not try to avoid it? See above. Note that there’s nothing stopping anyone from GRDDLing Atom (or otherwise creating a mapping), and there are community efforts underway, eg. http://djpowell.net/blog/entries/Atom-RDF.html Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jun 17 03:02:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 287243A6A80 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:02:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_48=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pjql6k7pWlfK for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:02:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C05B3A6996 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:02:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5H9mLsI042436 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Jun 2008 02:48:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5H9mLti042435; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 02:48:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from yw-out-1718.google.com (yw-out-1718.google.com [74.125.46.158]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5H9mJo6042418 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 02:48:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from erlingwl@gmail.com) Received: by yw-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 5so3329126ywr.4 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 02:48:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=kPyaqYWpyt8z0MvxADtM0x3FEuvo7pHXn13R2/8wl+c=; b=WbvfTURNxwfwnC22eWp76dN1NjCL9FrXlrg0vaJZ1d5X/mHUNMe5NmLtdV3juaz4Vz MsXBTRh0qmsKIj+netGxt46xEEpmab0Zi00iIOp/lNnqu4o25Qnfh3YHSujL206ADruj nFqekfzBiWr+ydpEqfRwhj23ZqQ22H9/P0jac= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=rR41e+aifFU+HXCcG89V9tZ+ynBbQGn09i1dz6GFfC6C+aUnNO/V3OVhwySlVy+lpQ z5LOyNmWWqNofskpB+cER9/q64k8KhhhHz9lnLlN0s0oJtOv2LOp5FNvl1oZZ5G3zmRa UsoWyhAyua17D9SQwgT0CcvKiCoUz4ksP+4wE= Received: by 10.151.142.2 with SMTP id u2mr12564059ybn.108.1213696091648; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 02:48:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.134.5 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 02:48:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9f0578290806170248x7ac7d591xc0c40ec6fbc015bd@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 11:48:11 +0200 From: "Erling Wegger Linde" To: sh@defuze.org, "Atom Syntax" Subject: Re: visibility/privacy extensions In-Reply-To: <48575568.8000103@defuze.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <485669A1.3020008@dehora.net> <48568052.5050108@gmail.com> <20080616155408.GB14045@harpo.laits.utexas.edu> <9f0578290806161404v547d2c01v9de9e0edeab4c03b@mail.gmail.com> <48575568.8000103@defuze.org> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 8:10 AM, Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote= : > Erling Wegger Linde a =E9crit : >> >> On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 5:54 PM, Peter Keane >> wrote: >>> >>> In our project, similarly to Connections, we use: >>> >>> >>> >>> I'd be v. interested to know what other folks do, esp. if there is an >>> opportunity for standardization. In fact, I could see real utility in >>> some semi-formal way to register category schemes and terms. As has bee= n >>> noted [1][2], atom:category has the potential to be quite a powerful >>> exension mechanism, getting us a "description framework" without having >>> to use RDF (not that there's anything wrong w/ RDF ;-)). >> >>> From an outsider, just watching this list from time to time: Why not >> >> use RDF? Isn't RDF more general? Could these categories be used >> anywhere outside of Atom? >> >> I'm not very familiar with the atom:category(ies) so I ask: can >> atom:categories be referred to / used in a meaningful way with RDF? > > Unless I'm mistaken, they are URIs so yes I'd say a client that is built > with such purpose could make sense of those elements. Ok, could you give me an example of such a URI? (I think I have never seen an atom:category scheme before..). What would happen if you use a URI to an RDF or N3 file instead? ( I think one should make it possible to use both ) > >> E.g. can you either use URIs e.g. "http://.../flags#private" or >> "http://.../flags/private" to refer to them? Or could one create a# Atom= to turtle xslt 2.0 generated by the really excellent xq2xsl script from th= e above XQuery. It retains a small dependency on Saxon. Test it out by tran= slating Tim Bray's Atom feed using the W3C XSLT 2.0 service. >> general approach for using GRDDL ( >> http://research.talis.com/2006/grddl-wg/primer ) ? If you cannot, then >> I think this approach will be a dead end in a few years, agree? > > No I don't. Could you explain? > > I actually believe atom:category elements have the basic minimum that > someone may be looking for when adding a context to a resource. Let's say that using RDF and other Semantic Web technologies is getting more widely used. It is my opinion that this will happen sooner or later. If the atom:category approach isn't very compatible with such Semantic Web technologies, then I think people will not want to use it in the future. I mean, what information are you trying to add with atom:category elements? Are you trying to state the scope/domain of an Atom feed? Where will these category schemes/URIs be stored? Does someone create public schemes for everyone to use? Or do everyone just create their own schemes? How can you tell if a scheme is related to another scheme? E.g. a concept in a scheme is a subclass of another concept in another scheme? Could you express something like that? I think that ontologies describing all sorts of concept will be created for many domains, independent of whether they are used with the Atom format/protocol or not. Why should one need to create such schemes for a specific format/protocol if they can be shared and reused other places using RDF? > >> >> If there is one thing I think Atom is missing is a standardized way to >> combine it with RDF. Why not try to use RDF when you can, not try to >> avoid it? > > I don't understand what you mean by standardizing RDF with Atom. If someo= ne > is interested in using RDF inside Atom can't they just do so already? Or = do > you mean mapping the Atom model to the RDF data model? > > Looking at the GRRDL Primer specification it looks like it's a > transformation mechanism of a source document to a RDF representation. Is > there any showstopper from the RDF community to already create such > specification for consuming Atom documents? What I mean is: it is probably easy to transform Atom elements such as , etc. to RDF as they do not change! However, I wonder how the atom:category schemes looks like, and if it is possible to create a general GRRDL script that will transform them into something meaningful in RDF. But please give me an example of an atom:category scheme. > > More fundamentally my *personal* issue here is that RDF has chosen a > top-down approach by saying "We needed a mechanism to enable meaningful > consuming of heterogeneous resources" so they defined RDF and gradually > offered simpler mechanisms to allow the profane to join the RDF world (li= ke > GRRDL Primer). Atom on the other hand has followed a bottom-up path and > been about "Let's have the lowest entry barrier we can and gradually add > more complex mechanisms if they are needed". But because the base format = is > well defined you can make an Atom document already meaningful on its own. Yes, the simplicity and the RESTfullness of the Atom format/protocol is what I love about it. I just suggest that the atom:category approach is way out of scope! You have to draw the line somewhere I think, and I think atom:categories is far across that line, as it would be much easier to use RDF here. I think it is impossible to make the atom:category approach powerful enough (as users will probably demand more features in the future) without actually making it more similar to RDF, and that would be a waste of time and energy, as you could just have used RDF from the beginning. I think at least one should be able to use both. > > - Sylvain > > > > >> >> Thanks, >> - Erling >> >>> --peter keane >>> >>> [1]http://torrez.us/archives/2006/05/25/447/ >>> [2]http://www.majordojo.com/2006/05/overloading-atomcategory.php#c12851 >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 08:01:38AM -0700, James M Snell wrote: >>>> >>>> In Connections, we've adopted a category based "flags" mechanisms, e.g= . >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It is essentially a boolean flag. If the term "private" is included i= n >>>> the >>>> entry, the entry is private, otherwise it's not. The "flags" scheme >>>> contains a number of other types of flags relevant to the entry. So >>>> far, >>>> this has worked reasonably well for us. >>>> >>>> - James >>>> >>>> Bill de hOra wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> are there any format or category extensions for stating view privacy = or >>>>> moderation levels on content or feeds? ) >>>>> >>>>> Bill >>>>> >>>>> >>> >> >> >> > > --=20 Med vennlig hilsen Erling Wegger Linde From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jun 17 03:30:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E120D3A68F5 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:30:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_48=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ePB3mawSG2-t for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:30:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 403433A6874 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:30:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5HAFel7052187 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:15:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5HAFeQc052186; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:15:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from yw-out-1718.google.com (yw-out-1718.google.com [74.125.46.157]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5HAFdxk052180 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:15:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from erlingwl@gmail.com) Received: by yw-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 5so3333054ywr.4 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:15:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=EXAtpmDYv1+2VFfciJqfI8rEVfjgA0eBtq7myHgcoGs=; b=LHYIQg3Li4aMjY19rMP4ddZLb1SGVCafyvaZO5AtGeuuMsv6x9akNw9GIcISHFNoDw QQoOJpPzoOZx6vUh2GYLvtCA6eVejyyWNuIRcRb2av5a0GG4SX3mhBDo54YlGjsApCRK dgHhPbEU/iMb/iz/MJZxPy1Hz88N/D/kTD7VI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=NE77GBZ/eUWLcRlwEY7bFrSm5ARRWHr/dx/wye9QkuD14dsI5BGqyAZ1HS8j0vG4En RA/2tIA26Mqp8Ksy00k/zM6PuOlvlxjndR3l/RMmP3imWu5Xo7nOgn4aNy4inM3+Ww8B CRIXGMqqLC8HuctzTnV2p1MHL9LZZ5np2WxSg= Received: by 10.150.198.18 with SMTP id v18mr12601471ybf.76.1213697305671; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:08:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.134.5 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:08:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9f0578290806170308g4f27169cr71c25288d76fb045@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 12:08:25 +0200 From: "Erling Wegger Linde" To: "Atom Syntax" Subject: Re: visibility/privacy extensions In-Reply-To: <20080617082941.GY25433@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <485669A1.3020008@dehora.net> <48568052.5050108@gmail.com> <20080616155408.GB14045@harpo.laits.utexas.edu> <9f0578290806161404v547d2c01v9de9e0edeab4c03b@mail.gmail.com> <20080617082941.GY25433@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 10:29 AM, Aristotle Pagaltzis wr= ote: > > * Erling Wegger Linde [2008-06-16 23:15]: >> Why not use RDF? Isn't RDF more general? > > Yes, which makes it more demanding to process properly. If Atom > was specified in terms of RDF, you can bet that the same thing > would happen as it did with RSS 1.0: aggregators would parse the > RDF as XML, instead of building a graph out of it, and would > therefore break if anyone actually used Atom as RDF, eg. changing > the precise XML serialisation or adding triples in unexpected > places. But what about using RDF in the would this break the aggregators too? Regarding the atom:category(ies) I would like to state that a feed contains entries about for instance projects. Say: ... Would that mess up a client too? > > As I found out when I changed the namespace prefix bindings in my > feed, even just using Atom as actual XML will break a whole bunch > of na=EFve Atom parsers! > > I don't like this reality, but reality has a way of not caring > about whether I like it or not=85 > >> Could these categories be used anywhere outside of Atom? > > Not as it's written. > >> I'm not very familiar with the atom:category(ies) so I ask: can >> atom:categories be referred to / used in a meaningful way with >> RDF? > > An atom:category is basically a rudimentary shorthand for writing > an RDF triple (where the Entry is always the subject). > >> Why not try to use RDF when you can, not try to avoid it? > > See above. > > Note that there's nothing stopping anyone from GRDDLing Atom (or > otherwise creating a mapping), and there are community efforts > underway, eg. http://djpowell.net/blog/entries/Atom-RDF.html Just as you don't misunderstand me, I think it is great that Atom is kept simple, and as long as it is possible to use GRDDL or other approaches to map it to RDF I think it is great. However I think that the atom:category approach might not cooperate very we using GRDDL to transform Atom to RDF is greall with the future Semantic Web. This is just my intuition, and I think I need to see some more examples of atom:category schemes and how they are used before I conclude on this one. However, it should be possible to just use URIs to refer to which categories a Feed contains. Whether these URIs refers to an RDF document or the homepage of a company, a wikipedia site or whatever, it should be easy to deal with for a client. However, it would still make it possible for a client to look up that RDF document, or use a previously known ontology to find out that the category is actually a subClassOf another category/concept that it is already familiar with. I just don't understand why one are inventing the atom:category schemes? - Erling > > Regards, > -- > Aristotle Pagaltzis // > > --=20 Med vennlig hilsen Erling Wegger Linde From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jun 17 03:38:10 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BFAC3A6A7D for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:38:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_48=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8TvFl+MkniL0 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:38:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07DF93A68F5 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5HAIxTp053559 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:18:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5HAIx1c053556; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:18:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from yw-out-1718.google.com (yw-out-1718.google.com [74.125.46.158]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5HAIwU3053539 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:18:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from erlingwl@gmail.com) Received: by yw-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 5so3333474ywr.4 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:18:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=zct80B3xf+SOkTIdp5ggKTrLUAlqpO6oK+wPAEvSUaM=; b=bZcXG7nD2ALJqno8zf2QuPXAMjJ2cXzeseCxvhoIGCOy/MKQ09PqmOJdALJhnWb3Ig 8NzAtnZ+J27nNmdh/P7Xca+tuP3TxtJqrUNM6PN3/kvk7zQ/O4P4Cooj0h8LWiTPrdsN ogeYJdOYjxj94B35LFyMl1h7u+hpeBOStoW0U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=ZDTje4WyOSKO1/FYLEFtKG+ivRCd95sn8A5VXv3yfvY68ZRXLd2VJEnmal6+1kYg1a W4OM+RDcJ3yZGlHN2dFMAk2JRBKPEnqVg4uNep1DgwX2RlJc8uULUKUoSGdIPEqj88gh 3aFXU6GXD5m1L+eMv9iQ2QVjOMhBYOE3ajD/k= Received: by 10.151.156.11 with SMTP id i11mr12577333ybo.106.1213696420063; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 02:53:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.134.5 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 02:53:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9f0578290806170253y5ba69c6aueeafd32ca5c6178f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 11:53:40 +0200 From: "Erling Wegger Linde" To: "Story Henry" Subject: Re: visibility/privacy extensions Cc: sh@defuze.org, "Atom Syntax" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <485669A1.3020008@dehora.net> <48568052.5050108@gmail.com> <20080616155408.GB14045@harpo.laits.utexas.edu> <9f0578290806161404v547d2c01v9de9e0edeab4c03b@mail.gmail.com> <48575568.8000103@defuze.org> Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Story Henry wrote: > Hi Linde, > > There is some work on GRDDLing atom. One of them is here > > https://sommer.dev.java.net/atom/ > > David Powell is working on an XSLT1 transform for another ontology. Thanks Henry. I'll have to take a closer look at that, as well as I'm searching for an example of an atom:category scheme. > > The atom group as a whole tends not to be very interested in these > discussions, as they open up a painful history of years of debate that > started with very early versions of RSS, and a good deal of confusion and > misunderstanding all over. > > RDF is very powerful. So it is better to spend time working on solutions > that reveal that aspect of things. All the rest is GRDDLable. Yes, I can sympathize with the historic reasons. However I think maybe one has to limit the scope of Atom somewhere, and atom:category(ies) just intuitively seems as a not so good idea to me. - Erling > > Henry > > > On 17 Jun 2008, at 08:10, Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote: >> >> I don't understand what you mean by standardizing RDF with Atom. If >> someone is interested in using RDF inside Atom can't they just do so >> already? Or do you mean mapping the Atom model to the RDF data model? >> >> Looking at the GRRDL Primer specification it looks like it's a >> transformation mechanism of a source document to a RDF representation. Is >> there any showstopper from the RDF community to already create such >> specification for consuming Atom documents? >> >> More fundamentally my *personal* issue here is that RDF has chosen a >> top-down approach by saying "We needed a mechanism to enable meaningful >> consuming of heterogeneous resources" so they defined RDF and gradually >> offered simpler mechanisms to allow the profane to join the RDF world (like >> GRRDL Primer). Atom on the other hand has followed a bottom-up path and >> been about "Let's have the lowest entry barrier we can and gradually add >> more complex mechanisms if they are needed". But because the base format is >> well defined you can make an Atom document already meaningful on its own. > > -- Med vennlig hilsen Erling Wegger Linde From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jun 17 03:39:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A02063A67B4 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:39:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_48=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NOYJ7D1mamTm for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:39:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E2733A6874 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:39:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5HAJ3Xd053599 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:19:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5HAJ3oc053598; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:19:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from zone5.gridzones.com (zone5.gridzones.com [216.18.236.32]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5HAJ1qt053585 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:19:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from henry.story@bblfish.net) Received: from bblfish.home (ALagny-152-1-17-42.w83-112.abo.wanadoo.fr [83.112.143.42]) (authenticated bits=0) by zone5.gridzones.com (8.13.8/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m5HAIOZg006046 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:18:27 -0700 (PDT) Cc: sh@defuze.org, "Atom Syntax" Message-Id: <81E76004-A73F-4B86-8010-E4BD15FA3FB5@bblfish.net> From: Story Henry To: "Erling Wegger Linde" In-Reply-To: <9f0578290806170253y5ba69c6aueeafd32ca5c6178f@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-2--832512660; micalg=sha1; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Subject: Re: visibility/privacy extensions Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 12:18:08 +0200 References: <485669A1.3020008@dehora.net> <48568052.5050108@gmail.com> <20080616155408.GB14045@harpo.laits.utexas.edu> <9f0578290806161404v547d2c01v9de9e0edeab4c03b@mail.gmail.com> <48575568.8000103@defuze.org> <9f0578290806170253y5ba69c6aueeafd32ca5c6178f@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.91.1, clamav-milter version 0.91.1 on zone5.gridzones.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --Apple-Mail-2--832512660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 17 Jun 2008, at 11:53, Erling Wegger Linde wrote: > On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Story Henry > wrote: >> Hi Linde, >> >> There is some work on GRDDLing atom. One of them is here >> >> https://sommer.dev.java.net/atom/ >> >> David Powell is working on an XSLT1 transform for another ontology. > > Thanks Henry. I'll have to take a closer look at that, as well as I'm > searching for an example of an atom:category scheme. Tim Bray uses category in his feed a lot: http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/ongoing.atom You can then apply the following xquery to it, and see one way to write this out in N3: https://sommer.dev.java.net/atom/2006-06-06/transform/atom2turtle.xquery If you have time you could write a little applet that does this for any URI. and I'll post in on the sommer atom page. Henry --Apple-Mail-2--832512660 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGLzCCAugw ggJRoAMCAQICEBWASm0nQHFDo++JronHWNcwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkEx JTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQ ZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBMB4XDTA3MDgyMTE3NDI0OVoXDTA4MDgyMDE3NDI0 OVowSTEfMB0GA1UEAxMWVGhhd3RlIEZyZWVtYWlsIE1lbWJlcjEmMCQGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYXaGVu cnkuc3RvcnlAYmJsZmlzaC5uZXQwggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDTd30+ k6huUDsckx6Gdw6rzJ18f96HQBScRhfZdomgEAGI9isL3d622Lyd1u6B8A9fVasxwDwcgVg/1OG7 ObZjAsZY19zzO6ogCqsPVTzfJq7Zr+pdKSQLS4Vbv9GMEcuL2PtBZ3k4rFtH200dgi78MhIQTvE8 0EmprzwatcMmpatuWoaBaVTc0eSda2rGAos2y+eWfGNFkAnyS1OMvHzSzUgIJBMZw9SuPWwL6xg+ GPVWZRKcKmUaUnXcr+ZsRu8OQjPFuLW0nNQ3DQVSd+uhldqjt6pDpZbxHaDjgpjNaJ5Ikq4jLYgZ 3BHxd031yqIBFc8YZqVkDhdL81ATek07AgMBAAGjNDAyMCIGA1UdEQQbMBmBF2hlbnJ5LnN0b3J5 QGJibGZpc2gubmV0MAwGA1UdEwEB/wQCMAAwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQADgYEAqLdyw7jb1fPzVS/B xR7DZIYFs+b38kuo1X5MFH/UWy0D4+F6VbJxqJdXnBizkFhose7x6GdxVlELdcl2NyQG3795dV3l eIG5IA9PaXEIPucwd9JgxuNwVW6jX0EsUl8ZtKEQxzRfGFyzCxGflN2JBYTN7//cTmDK++KMwawx njEwggM/MIICqKADAgECAgENMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMIHRMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTEVMBMGA1UE CBMMV2VzdGVybiBDYXBlMRIwEAYDVQQHEwlDYXBlIFRvd24xGjAYBgNVBAoTEVRoYXd0ZSBDb25z dWx0aW5nMSgwJgYDVQQLEx9DZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIFNlcnZpY2VzIERpdmlzaW9uMSQwIgYDVQQD ExtUaGF3dGUgUGVyc29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgQ0ExKzApBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWHHBlcnNvbmFsLWZy ZWVtYWlsQHRoYXd0ZS5jb20wHhcNMDMwNzE3MDAwMDAwWhcNMTMwNzE2MjM1OTU5WjBiMQswCQYD VQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMj VGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwgZ8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADgY0A MIGJAoGBAMSmPFVzVftOucqZWh5owHUEcJ3f6f+jHuy9zfVb8hp2vX8MOmHyv1HOAdTlUAow1wJj WiyJFXCO3cnwK4Vaqj9xVsuvPAsH5/EfkTYkKhPPK9Xzgnc9A74r/rsYPge/QIACZNenprufZdHF KlSFD0gEf6e20TxhBEAeZBlyYLf7AgMBAAGjgZQwgZEwEgYDVR0TAQH/BAgwBgEB/wIBADBDBgNV HR8EPDA6MDigNqA0hjJodHRwOi8vY3JsLnRoYXd0ZS5jb20vVGhhd3RlUGVyc29uYWxGcmVlbWFp bENBLmNybDALBgNVHQ8EBAMCAQYwKQYDVR0RBCIwIKQeMBwxGjAYBgNVBAMTEVByaXZhdGVMYWJl bDItMTM4MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAA4GBAEiM0VCD6gsuzA2jZqxnD3+vrL7CF6FDlpSdf0whuPg2 H6otnzYvwPQcUCCTcDz9reFhYsPZOhl+hLGZGwDFGguCdJ4lUJRix9sncVcljd2pnDmOjCBPZV+V 2vf3h9bGCE6u9uo05RAaWzVNd+NWIXiC3CEZNd4ksdMdRv9dX2VPMYIDEDCCAwwCAQEwdjBiMQsw CQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UE AxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0ECEBWASm0nQHFDo++JronHWNcw CQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAW8wGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG9w0BCQUxDxcN MDgwNjE3MTAxODA4WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUUUAGPt/P0i37JBGuMvnxMQFbBOgwgYUGCSsG AQQBgjcQBDF4MHYwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQ dHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAhAV gEptJ0BxQ6Pvia6Jx1jXMIGHBgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzF4oHYwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNV BAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25h bCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAhAVgEptJ0BxQ6Pvia6Jx1jXMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUABIIB AEFCpZNi1DW1ztsDIws34vNNUWhIcutEeIi1T5At4LotyD8PDy88Zw2Xi3qQj7O310cMBPRbcVBR LD/8qhu58WYrVPAnDL2XllIFmLMbMMCckiM3bQwEdwALewPvx5lJqZsU009tB9i3yBH7CRGOJJNo 1yOLYaTgwU2yuC7ngKHhSNValauNBcM9WTXzL0J2jLSC+mr35WcRzdrfWgHql7LNxzHx3aB3MUSb B6MUl5HquVtxb+VBJ/r0CI+KqZgRujgoGvtSlTE+36yqMyOu1nLf/SPrXPhAoMn4YPta9dLcuUe5 3gslX9xiHy2Q9nG3sXQJOtdD9LxHv0NL74EcpzcAAAAAAAA= --Apple-Mail-2--832512660-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jun 17 06:42:00 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A8713A6934 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 06:42:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EFzsl2RMoFNJ for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 06:41:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AB783A6A0C for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 06:41:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5HDPgos020072 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Jun 2008 06:25:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5HDPgGh020071; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 06:25:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [216.86.168.178]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5HDPf1v020064 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 06:25:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brian@briansmith.org) Received: from T60 (unknown [71.144.61.68]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AD5123E498; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 09:25:39 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brian Smith" To: "'James M Snell'" , "'Bill de hOra'" Cc: "'Atom Syntax'" References: <485669A1.3020008@dehora.net> <48568052.5050108@gmail.com> Subject: RE: visibility/privacy extensions Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 08:25:38 -0500 Message-ID: <8C81B4AD3586493B851A848F5C29E1D5@T60> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 In-Reply-To: <48568052.5050108@gmail.com> Thread-Index: AcjPwsN2/sMjzb+WS3qR4npEDDHcMQAusD4g Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: James M Snell wrote: > In Connections, we've adopted a category based "flags" > mechanisms, e.g. > > > > It is essentially a boolean flag. If the term "private" is > included in the entry, the entry is private, otherwise it's > not. The "flags" scheme contains a number of other types of > flags relevant to the entry. So far, this has worked > reasonably well for us. What does "private" mean in Connections? Some groups can see the entry but others can't? Only the author can see it? Thanks, Brian From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jun 17 10:24:07 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFA493A68E7 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:24:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JWrbjaZ+vVKQ for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 635083A67AD for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5HH37fx088293 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:03:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5HH37iw088292; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:03:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-out4.apple.com (mail-out4.apple.com [17.254.13.23]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5HH36qc088283 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:03:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from prabhaka@apple.com) Received: from relay12.apple.com (relay12.apple.com [17.128.113.53]) by mail-out4.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D5A930EA788; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay12.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay12.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id DBD12464002; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:03:05 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807135-ab26fbb00000104c-34-4857ee49d807 Received: from [17.203.46.207] (il0304b-dhcp79.apple.com [17.203.46.207]) by relay12.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id B15DB420005; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:03:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Ernest Prabhakar Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1018.1) To: Pete Brunet Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Message-Id: <08F97D59-F0D7-463C-BFD3-755D5F5A5248@apple.com> Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:03:05 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: looking for atom media feeds - multiple enclosures X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1018.1) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hi Pete, On Jun 9, 2008, at 2:39 PM, Pete Brunet wrote: > Does anyone have an example of multiple enclosures - or even just a > pedagogical example? Here's the canonical version from DeveloperWorks: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-atom10.html They differentiate by MIME type; I'm looking at doing something more sophisticated using HTML 5 / CSS 3 media queries... -- Ernie P. From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jun 18 02:36:44 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE67E28C0F3 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2008 02:36:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.389 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.389 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.210, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K3jJPc4tmlgr for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2008 02:36:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 479273A69FC for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2008 02:36:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5I9LZ0s027336 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 18 Jun 2008 02:21:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5I9LZoF027335; Wed, 18 Jun 2008 02:21:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id m5I9LWH8027304 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2008 02:21:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 18 Jun 2008 09:21:31 -0000 Received: from static-87-79-236-202.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [87.79.236.202] by mail.gmx.net (mp035) with SMTP; 18 Jun 2008 11:21:31 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/ms9Yydpjm20ab1yrwjmczLt3KQffiHuUOQQPzKX LR8XE6l8Y1Wtbb Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 11:21:31 +0200 From: Aristotle Pagaltzis To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Atom and accessibility - Atom vs RSS Message-ID: <20080618092131.GJ25433@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <479EB902.7000701@gmail.com> <20080606171047.GE24390@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <20080606205106.GA17586@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <20080607030300.GC17586@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * James Holderness [2008-06-07 13:55]: > Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote: >> You get a MIME type. You can do what mail clients do. That’s a >> lot for free. >> >> With RSS, all you get is a namespace URI. How useful. > > Funny you should mention that. When I was looking at that DOAP > example from earlier I was just thinking how useless the MIME > type was, and how the only way you could interpret that content > usefully was by looking at the namespace. :) In general you > might have a point though. This is a problem with RDF in general. That DOAP-over-Atom is the only easily visible example of non-HTML content in feeds (that I know of anyway) is unfortunate in that respect. The point is, if someone shipped PDFs via a feed, say, then a client has all the information and the system mechanisms it needs to do something useful with that content. > Atom could really have used some guidance for implementors in > this area IMHO. If you look at the mail specs (in particular > the MIME stuff), they're actually quite explicit about what > implementors should do (without be overly stringent). Completely agreed. Shades of an implementor’s guide… > For example, look at the following example atom entries (some > elements omitted that aren't relevent to the discussion). > #1 > > A photograph of the Eiffel Tower. > <img src="eiffeltower.jpg"/> > > #2 > > A photograph of the Eiffel Tower. > > /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEAYABgAAD/2wBDABALDA4MChAODQ4SERATGCgaGBYWGDEjJR0oOjM9... > > > #3 > > A photograph of the Eiffel Tower. > > > #4 > > A photograph of the Eiffel Tower. > > > #5 > > A photograph of the Eiffel Tower. > > > > What exactly is the difference between each of them? Assuming a > client is capable of displaying jpeg images, what *should* it > do with each of those entries? Assuming it *wasn't* capable of > displaying images, what should it do with them? Is the latter > case different for a client that doesn't display images for > accessibility reasons? In #1 the content is HTML. The summary semantically is not alternative content for the image, it is for the HTML content as a whole, which might consist of more than just an image and in this case just happens not to. Any fallback for the image in non-image-capable aggregators would have to happen at the HTML level, ie with an `alt` attribute. Entries #2 and #3 are identical: the content is an image, so the summary applies to the image specifically. The image should be shown in contexts where the full content is shown, and if it cannot be, then the summary should stand in. In case #4 I would expect an aggregator to show just the summary along with a link to the image. Some aggregators that allow loading the permalink page when you click on an item, instead of showing in the in-feed content; those would probably try to load the image, in which case they would treat it just like a browser. With #5 I would expect the summary to be shown, with the image downloaded to some directory of the user’s choosing if the user has so configured their reader, and some kind of attachment feature to be provided for viewing the downloaded content. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jun 18 14:23:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4027F3A69D8 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:23:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.596 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.596 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.402, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uWnUGsc0H-hq for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:23:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C5B43A6AEC for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5IL7eNb069501 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:07:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5IL7e07069500; Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:07:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from e35.co.us.ibm.com (e35.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.153]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5IL7dZu069493 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:07:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brunet@us.ibm.com) Received: from d03relay02.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay02.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.227]) by e35.co.us.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m5IL7a2c003120 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2008 17:07:36 -0400 Received: from d03av03.boulder.ibm.com (d03av03.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.169]) by d03relay02.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v9.0) with ESMTP id m5IL7aU3167418 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:07:36 -0600 Received: from d03av03.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av03.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m5IL7ZCN000803 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:07:35 -0600 Received: from d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com (d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.142]) by d03av03.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m5IL7Zkt000792 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:07:35 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Atom and Mashups X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 7.0 HF277 June 21, 2006 From: Pete Brunet Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 16:07:33 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D03NM116/03/M/IBM(Release 8.0.1|February 07, 2008) at 06/18/2008 15:07:35, Serialize complete at 06/18/2008 15:07:35 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 00740BD28625746C_=" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 00740BD28625746C_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I'm looking for material, e.g. tutorials, examples, running code, that will help me understand how Atom would be used in a mashup environment. Thanks, Pete Brunet IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758 Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155 Ionosphere: WS4G --=_alternative 00740BD28625746C_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
I'm looking for material, e.g. tutorials, examples, running code, that will help me understand how Atom would be used in a mashup environment.

Thanks,
Pete Brunet
                                                                         
IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155
Ionosphere: WS4G
 --=_alternative 00740BD28625746C_=-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jun 19 12:58:42 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9C963A698B for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:58:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SdJOjqyLORAL for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 980BB3A68AF for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:58:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5JJiLCm036865 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:44:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5JJiKFm036858; Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:44:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from e31.co.us.ibm.com (e31.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.149]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5JJiGSf036821 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:44:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brunet@us.ibm.com) Received: from d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.106]) by e31.co.us.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m5JJiF4R009087 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:44:15 -0400 Received: from d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (d03av05.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.85]) by d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v9.0) with ESMTP id m5JJi9TZ156314 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:44:09 -0600 Received: from d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.1/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m5JJi9k6001901 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:44:09 -0600 Received: from d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com (d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.142]) by d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.1/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m5JJi93M001894 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:44:09 -0600 In-Reply-To: To: atom-syntax@imc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Atom and Mashups X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 7.0 HF277 June 21, 2006 From: Pete Brunet Message-ID: Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:44:07 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D03NM116/03/M/IBM(Release 8.0.1|February 07, 2008) at 06/19/2008 13:44:08, Serialize complete at 06/19/2008 13:44:08 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 006C68278625746D_=" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 006C68278625746D_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >I'm looking for material, e.g. tutorials, examples, running code, that will help me understand how Atom would be used in a mashup environment. I found the Yahoo Pipes examples to be very helpful. http://pipes.yahoo.com/pipes/ Pete Brunet IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758 Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155 Ionosphere: WS4G --=_alternative 006C68278625746D_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
>I'm looking for material, e.g. tutorials, examples, running code, that will help me understand how Atom would be used in a mashup environment.

I found the Yahoo Pipes examples to be very helpful.
http://pipes.yahoo.com/pipes/

Pete Brunet
                                                                         
IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155
Ionosphere: WS4G --=_alternative 006C68278625746D_=-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jun 19 21:19:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FB823A68AB for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:19:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lDx1X2GTWA3N for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:19:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49D623A676A for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:19:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5K442YF099409 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:04:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5K442pM099408; Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:04:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from e35.co.us.ibm.com (e35.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.153]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5K440s6099386 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:04:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brunet@us.ibm.com) Received: from d03relay02.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay02.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.227]) by e35.co.us.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m5K440Fb026459 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:04:00 -0400 Received: from d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (d03av04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.170]) by d03relay02.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v9.0) with ESMTP id m5K43xNm159878 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2008 22:03:59 -0600 Received: from d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m5K43xOB027736 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2008 22:03:59 -0600 Received: from d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com (d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.142]) by d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m5K43xuA027731 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2008 22:03:59 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: looking for atom data feeds X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 7.0 HF277 June 21, 2006 From: Pete Brunet Message-ID: Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 23:03:47 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D03NM116/03/M/IBM(Release 8.0.1|February 07, 2008) at 06/19/2008 22:03:58, Serialize complete at 06/19/2008 22:03:58 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 001650E38625746E_=" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 001650E38625746E_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Hi, I'm looking for some atom data feeds as might be used in a mashup, not blog feeds but feeds like queries of craigslist, amazon, ebay, stocks, etc. I didn't find anything helpful at http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/KnownAtomFeeds Thanks, Pete Brunet IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758 Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155 Ionosphere: WS4G --=_alternative 001650E38625746E_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Hi, I'm looking for some atom data feeds as might be used in a mashup, not blog feeds but feeds like queries of craigslist, amazon, ebay, stocks, etc.  I didn't find anything helpful at http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/KnownAtomFeeds

Thanks,
Pete Brunet
                                                                         
IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155
Ionosphere: WS4G
 --=_alternative 001650E38625746E_=-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jun 20 08:10:10 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1657F28C0D0 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2008 08:10:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8fo-z6FgvlEk for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2008 08:10:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1301F3A69F1 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2008 08:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5KEr2hJ070157 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 20 Jun 2008 07:53:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5KEr24O070154; Fri, 20 Jun 2008 07:53:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mexforward.lss.emc.com (mexforward.lss.emc.com [128.222.32.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5KEr0p1070134 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2008 07:53:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from Davis_Cornelia@emc.com) Received: from hop04-l1d11-si01.isus.emc.com (HOP04-L1D11-SI01.isus.emc.com [10.254.111.54]) by mexforward.lss.emc.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id m5KEqw4c025522 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:52:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub.lss.emc.com (sesha.lss.emc.com [10.254.144.12]) by hop04-l1d11-si01.isus.emc.com (Tablus Interceptor); Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:52:58 -0400 Received: from corpussmtp4.corp.emc.com (corpussmtp4.corp.emc.com [10.254.64.54]) by mailhub.lss.emc.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id m5KEqtWG008229; Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:52:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Davis_Cornelia@emc.com Received: from CORPUSMX20B.corp.emc.com ([128.221.62.13]) by corpussmtp4.corp.emc.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:52:55 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C8D2E5.371D70F4" Subject: RE: looking for atom data feeds Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:52:08 -0400 Message-ID: <7E4F8CDD67652C479D8E427ED280E6A101FDF146@CORPUSMX20B.corp.emc.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: looking for atom data feeds Thread-Index: AcjSi9tN+fxftuMGSKKcDQ0gGVCgagAVtBAw References: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jun 2008 14:52:55.0671 (UTC) FILETIME=[52B0A070:01C8D2E5] X-Tablus-Inspected: yes X-Tablus-Classifications: public X-Tablus-Action: allow Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8D2E5.371D70F4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here are some: =20 GData - lots of feeds available - try http://www.google.com/base/feeds/snippets?bq=3Drest%20web%20services (http://code.google.com/apis/gdata/ for info) Flickr - try http://api.flickr.com/services/feeds/photos_public.gne?format=3Datom (http://www.flickr.com/services/feeds/ for info) =20 And you can get lots more ideas from Yahoo pipes - http://pipes.yahoo.com/pipes/. Some of the feeds used the examples there are Atom, some are RSS. =20 Cornelia =20 =20 ________________________________ From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Pete Brunet Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 9:04 PM To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: looking for atom data feeds =20 Hi, I'm looking for some atom data feeds as might be used in a mashup, not blog feeds but feeds like queries of craigslist, amazon, ebay, stocks, etc. I didn't find anything helpful at http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/KnownAtomFeeds=20 Thanks,=20 Pete Brunet =20 IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758 Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155 Ionosphere: WS4G ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8D2E5.371D70F4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Here are = some:

 

GData – lots of feeds = available – try http://www.google.com/base/feeds/snippets?bq=3Drest%20web%20services= (http://code.google.com/apis/g= data/ for info)

Flickr – try http://api.flickr.com/services/feeds/photos_public.gne?format=3Datom= (http://www.flickr.com/serv= ices/feeds/ for info)

 

And you can get lots more ideas = from Yahoo pipes - http://pipes.yahoo.com/pipes/.=  Some of the feeds used the examples there are Atom, some are = RSS.

 

Cornelia

 

 

From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] = On Behalf Of Pete Brunet
Sent: Thursday, June 19, = 2008 9:04 PM
To: = atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject: looking for atom = data feeds

 


Hi, I'm looking for some atom data feeds as = might be used in a mashup, not blog feeds but feeds like queries of craigslist, = amazon, ebay, stocks, etc.  I didn't find anything helpful at http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/KnownAtomFeeds

Thanks,
Pete Brunet
                    =                       =                       =          
IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155
Ionosphere: WS4G

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Come inside now... your Tag Heuer watch is waiting for you at Diamond Replicas. http://zezupacadyr21.blogspot.com/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jun 24 17:46:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B9333A6A6C for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:46:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VHv06Du+ePeC for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB2963A6A6B for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:46:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5P0ZfHu068861 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:35:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5P0ZfF0068860; Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:35:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [216.86.168.178]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5P0Ze5t068853 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:35:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brian@briansmith.org) Received: from T60 (unknown [70.252.164.43]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A3A823E496 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:35:38 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brian Smith" To: "'Atom Syntax'" Subject: MIME Media type syntax for atom:link/@type and atom:content/@type Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:35:38 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Thread-Index: AcjWW2QG0lPXVq0OSyu5KAv3J1cTOw== Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Can atom:link/@type and atom:content/@type reference media types with parameters like "application/atom+xml;type=entry"? If so, what is the syntax supposed to be? Currently, I am using RFC 2616's media-type syntax so that these attributes have a syntax consistent with HTTP Content-Type headers, and because RFC 5023 already re-uses the RFC 2616 media-range syntax. Is anybody handling it any other way? RFC 4287 references RFC 4288 for the syntax of atom:link/@type and atom:content/@type. However, RFC 4288 doesn't define a syntax for media types with parameters. I suppose we are supposed to use something similar to what RFC 2045 and RFC 2616 use, but each of those have different grammars for this construct. The parts of the syntax that RFC 4288 *does* define are more restrictive than the syntax used by RFC 2616, but RFC 4288's constraints are for registered MIME types, not all MIME types. Regards, Brian From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Tue Jun 24 17:54:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B3AF3A6837 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:54:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3Jq6-c-cDXpK for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:54:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F9CD3A6851 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:54:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5P0lRQC071184 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:47:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5P0lRcX071183; Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:47:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [216.86.168.178]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5P0lQHV071175 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:47:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brian@briansmith.org) Received: from T60 (unknown [70.252.164.43]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D028C23E405 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:47:25 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brian Smith" To: "'Atom Syntax'" Subject: Syntax of atom:link/@length Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:47:28 -0500 Message-ID: <4D98F6CE6FF24032BE53153C10DAC64D@T60> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Thread-Index: AcjWXQrpnZrL0GlZSc2/AWO1Hbt8NQ== Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: What is the grammar for atom:link/@length? Is it 1*DIGIT with no leading or trailing white space? Is it xsd:nonNegativeInteger (which allows a leading "+", leading whitespace, and/or trailing whitespace, as well as negative zero)? I would like to submit an errata to RFC 4287 saying that the syntax is 1*DIGIT, where DIGIT is any ASCII digit "0".."9", with no leading or trailing whitespace. Any objections? Regards, Brian From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jun 25 08:32:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 589AA28C0CE for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:32:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sPsvvY4u7pOi for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 075733A6A0B for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:32:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5PF715h048647 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:07:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5PF70b4048646; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:07:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.244]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5PF6wgC048634 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:06:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jasnell@gmail.com) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c35so752359anc.44 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:06:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=GMWta8K8LJSzCzXbuS53hotwCczpcx01wahFz1g4lKE=; b=Ji/wgrW9KWGAN+SNHYTKYpzt0650NHiwMAYfYg8B4jPYvt/jX03zuN//DdHq69Ur99 MiLw10ORu0LQXWgu0i/Mld24FW2KN+9NcTEh8YmTpfWGmXRFdowCO+auLcph7A9dTxXb 6sKDi6ERpTEXiXXFdJzM6WQpZZvns3jTV7LBM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=brQuztZGWkcCHusyqt7LbMdFtMWPm7dhuOpQuBR8I7WNYYIg4dbqX47qGWLS1IRD/r dtjKbGuZIPuO5EF24uiQcFol6UjWjYqXRLvqO+wlpJyEcz7sShnIfUhyV5vgJ3d7aKD4 Dhx1uDWOAmDi5YDD4rMXrlWRuZOkN64Qw0pj8= Received: by 10.100.123.4 with SMTP id v4mr18607093anc.107.1214406418149; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:06:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.2.105? ( [98.224.93.96]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f77sm3561523pyh.15.2008.06.25.08.06.54 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:06:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <48625F29.6040100@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:07:21 -0700 From: James M Snell User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080505) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Smith CC: "'Atom Syntax'" Subject: Re: MIME Media type syntax for atom:link/@type and atom:content/@type References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Brian Smith wrote: > Can atom:link/@type and atom:content/@type reference media types with > parameters like "application/atom+xml;type=entry"? If so, what is the syntax > supposed to be? > Of course. The syntax is nothing special: Quoted parameters will need to be escaped of course... - James > Currently, I am using RFC 2616's media-type syntax so that these attributes > have a syntax consistent with HTTP Content-Type headers, and because RFC > 5023 already re-uses the RFC 2616 media-range syntax. Is anybody handling it > any other way? > > RFC 4287 references RFC 4288 for the syntax of atom:link/@type and > atom:content/@type. However, RFC 4288 doesn't define a syntax for media > types with parameters. I suppose we are supposed to use something similar to > what RFC 2045 and RFC 2616 use, but each of those have different grammars > for this construct. The parts of the syntax that RFC 4288 *does* define are > more restrictive than the syntax used by RFC 2616, but RFC 4288's > constraints are for registered MIME types, not all MIME types. > > Regards, > Brian > > From c.murua@mvmdiseno.cl Wed Jun 25 08:53:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAE2E3A686E; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:53:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -50.455 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-50.455 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_80=2, FB_QUALITY_REPLICA=10.357, FS_REPLICA=0.994, FS_REPLICAWATCH=10.357, GB_ROLEX=5, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_SPEC_REPLICA_OBFU=1.812, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX=1.666, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX_HIQLT=1.666, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX_NOV5A=1.062, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX_NOV5F=0.666, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX_REP=1.666, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dkV7Xz2jkGO5; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:53:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bl9-236-154.dsl.telepac.pt (bl9-236-154.dsl.telepac.pt [85.242.236.154]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 72DAA3A6961; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:52:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: 128.16.41.129 by smtp.85.242.236.154; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:52:14 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Rodrick Patel" <7b@megatron.ietf.org> Reply-To: "Rodrick Patel" <7b@megatron.ietf.org> To: 7b@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Take a look at the latest replica watches Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:52:14 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Have you always wanted a Rolex, but don't want to pay high prices for a brand name watch? 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But don't let this limited time offer go by... spring is ending and it's time to impress your friends with a realistic, high quality Rolex replica watch, that will look and perform just like the real deal! http://www.geocities.com/bernalwiloc From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jun 25 18:58:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80F723A68C3 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 18:58:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.148 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.148 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.550, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p9OgKjMXKZr3 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 18:58:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AD023A679F for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 18:58:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5Q1ZRer069589 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 25 Jun 2008 18:35:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5Q1ZRgV069588; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 18:35:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from e35.co.us.ibm.com (e35.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.153]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5Q1ZPVm069574 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 18:35:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brunet@us.ibm.com) Received: from d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.106]) by e35.co.us.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m5Q1ZOK2019552 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 21:35:24 -0400 Received: from d03av02.boulder.ibm.com (d03av02.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.168]) by d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v9.0) with ESMTP id m5Q1ZOaT168562 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:35:24 -0600 Received: from d03av02.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av02.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m5Q1ZO2D020304 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:35:24 -0600 Received: from d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com (d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.142]) by d03av02.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m5Q1ZOVw020301 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:35:24 -0600 In-Reply-To: <4849692D.6040008@gmail.com> To: atom-syntax@imc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Atom and accessibility - Atom vs RSS X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 7.0 HF277 June 21, 2006 From: Pete Brunet Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:35:22 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D03NM116/03/M/IBM(Release 8.0.1|February 07, 2008) at 06/25/2008 19:35:23, Serialize complete at 06/25/2008 19:35:23 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0008B9D186257474_=" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0008B9D186257474_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Thanks James, >There are several challenges with RSS a11y. Besides the content labeling problem you mention, what are the others? >Content is not explicitly labeled in RSS like it is in Atom. Are you referring to the type attribute? Pete Brunet IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758 Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155 Ionosphere: WS4G James M Snell Sent by: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org 06/06/2008 11:43 AM To Pete Brunet/Austin/IBM@IBMUS cc atom-syntax@imc.org Subject Re: Atom and accessibility - Atom vs RSS There are several challenges with RSS a11y. The most important is that there is significant ambiguity in the RSS content model that makes it difficult (at best) for software to determine automatically whether an entry contains markup or plain text. Content is not explicitly labeled in RSS like it is in Atom. - James Pete Brunet wrote: > > What a11y features does Atom have that RSS doesn't? > > *Pete Brunet* > > IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development > 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758 > Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155 > Ionosphere: WS4G > > > > *James M Snell * > Sent by: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org > > 01/28/2008 11:26 PM > > > To > Pete Brunet/Austin/IBM@IBMUS > cc > atom-syntax@imc.org > Subject > Re: Atom and accessibility > > > > > > > > > > Hey Pete, > > Glad to see this :-). There are several features of Atom that have been > designed with accessibility in mind. > > 1. Explicitly typed text - title's, summary's, subtitle's, rights, > and content are all explicitly typed as either plain text, html, > xhtml, xml or some other media type > > 2. Required text content - title's are required for every entry and > textual content in the form of either an atom:summary or > atom:content element is required. It is possible for either of > these to be empty, but the elements themselves are required, > allowing applications to know explicitly whether or not text > content has been provided. > > 3. Language tags - The use of xml:lang attributes allow the language > for every piece of text to be explicitly declared. > > 4. Link titles - The atom:link element has an optional > language-sensitive title attribute that is a rough analog to the > html img tag's alt attribute. > > 5. Link href lang - The atom:link element specifies an hreflang > attribute that identifies the language of the referenced resource. > > 6. Link types - The atom:link element specifies a type attribute that > identifies the media type of the referenced resource > > 7. Accessible (x)html embedded in an atom text element or atom:content > should continue to remain accessible within the Atom feed. > > There are a number of areas where accessibility is somewhat inadequate: > > 1. The atom:icon and atom:logo elements do not have title or type > attributes. > > 2. Despite requirements for the use of atom:title, atom:summary and > atom:content, it is possible for an entry to contain zero > human-readable text > > It would be helpful if someone with a strong accessibility background > could run some tests on a corpus of atom feeds to see what accessibility > issues appear to be most common. As far as I am aware, no such analysis > has ever been done. > > - James > > Pete Brunet wrote: > > > > I am interesting in evaluating Atom to determine what the accessibility > > needs are. I'd limit this, at least for now, to enhancements to help > > blind screen reader users. I'd like to eventually develop a list of > > recommendations for improvement, e.g development of new technology or > > creating usage guidelines. My primary interest is in relation to the > > use of Atom in mashups, for example, a web page may start out being > > accessible by using W3C WCAG ( Web content Accessibility Guidelines, see > > http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/ ) but by incorporating content via > > Atom it may become inaccessible. If you've done any research in this > > area or if you have pointers to background material I'd like to hear > > from you. I am starting at ground zero with respect to Atom (but have > > been in the accessibility field for many years) so it's likely that no > > information will be too basic :-) > > > > Should further discussion related to accessibility take place on this > > list or atom-protocol? > > > > Thanks, > > *Pete Brunet* > > > > IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development > > 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758 > > Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155 > > Ionosphere: WS4G > > --=_alternative 0008B9D186257474_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Thanks James,

>There are several challenges with RSS a11y.
Besides the content labeling problem you mention, what are the others?

>Content is not explicitly labeled in RSS like it is in Atom.
Are you referring to the type attribute?

Pete Brunet
                                                                         
IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155
Ionosphere: WS4G


James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
Sent by: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org

06/06/2008 11:43 AM

To
Pete Brunet/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
cc
atom-syntax@imc.org
Subject
Re: Atom and accessibility - Atom vs RSS






There are several challenges with RSS a11y.  The most important is that
there is significant ambiguity in the RSS content model that makes it
difficult (at best) for software to determine automatically whether an
entry contains markup or plain text.  Content is not explicitly labeled
in RSS like it is in Atom.

- James

Pete Brunet wrote:
>
> What a11y features does Atom have that RSS doesn't?
>
> *Pete Brunet*
>                                                                          
> IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
> 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
> Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155
> Ionosphere: WS4G
>
>
>
> *James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>*
> Sent by: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org
>
> 01/28/2008 11:26 PM
>
>                  
> To
>                  Pete Brunet/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
> cc
>                  atom-syntax@imc.org
> Subject
>                  Re: Atom and accessibility
>
>
>                  
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hey Pete,
>
> Glad to see this :-). There are several features of Atom that have been
> designed with accessibility in mind.
>
>  1. Explicitly typed text - title's, summary's, subtitle's, rights,
>     and content are all explicitly typed as either plain text, html,
>     xhtml, xml or some other media type
>
>  2. Required text content - title's are required for every entry and
>     textual content in the form of either an atom:summary or
>     atom:content element is required.  It is possible for either of
>     these to be empty, but the elements themselves are required,
>     allowing applications to know explicitly whether or not text
>     content has been provided.
>
>  3. Language tags - The use of xml:lang attributes allow the language
>     for every piece of text to be explicitly declared.
>
>  4. Link titles - The atom:link element has an optional
>     language-sensitive title attribute that is a rough analog to the
>     html img tag's alt attribute.
>
>  5. Link href lang - The atom:link element specifies an hreflang
>     attribute that identifies the language of the referenced resource.
>
>  6. Link types - The atom:link element specifies a type attribute that
>     identifies the media type of the referenced resource
>
>  7. Accessible (x)html embedded in an atom text element or atom:content
>     should continue to remain accessible within the Atom feed.
>
> There are a number of areas where accessibility is somewhat inadequate:
>
>  1. The atom:icon and atom:logo elements do not have title or type
>     attributes.
>
>  2. Despite requirements for the use of atom:title, atom:summary and
>     atom:content, it is possible for an entry to contain zero
>     human-readable text
>
> It would be helpful if someone with a strong accessibility background
> could run some tests on a corpus of atom feeds to see what accessibility
> issues appear to be most common.  As far as I am aware, no such analysis
> has ever been done.
>
> - James
>
> Pete Brunet wrote:
>  >
>  > I am interesting in evaluating Atom to determine what the accessibility
>  > needs are.  I'd limit this, at least for now, to enhancements to help
>  > blind screen reader users.  I'd like to eventually develop a list of
>  > recommendations for improvement, e.g development of new technology or
>  > creating usage guidelines.  My primary interest is in relation to the
>  > use of Atom in mashups, for example, a web page may start out being
>  > accessible by using W3C WCAG ( Web content Accessibility Guidelines, see
>  > http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/ ) but by incorporating content via
>  > Atom it may become inaccessible.  If you've done any research in this
>  > area or if you have pointers to background material I'd like to hear
>  > from you.  I am starting at ground zero with respect to Atom (but have
>  > been in the accessibility field for many years) so it's likely that no
>  > information will be too basic :-)  
>  >
>  > Should further discussion related to accessibility take place on this
>  > list or atom-protocol?
>  >
>  > Thanks,
>  > *Pete Brunet*
>  >                                                                          
>  > IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
>  > 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
>  > Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155
>  > Ionosphere: WS4G
>
>


--=_alternative 0008B9D186257474_=-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Wed Jun 25 22:54:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 427963A68DB for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 22:54:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.865 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.865 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.533, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8SYJURDzKqEY for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 22:54:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC41F3A67B7 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 22:54:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5Q5WKr7016211 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 25 Jun 2008 22:32:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5Q5WKWe016210; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 22:32:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from e32.co.us.ibm.com (e32.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.150]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5Q5WIkV016192 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 22:32:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brunet@us.ibm.com) Received: from d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.106]) by e32.co.us.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m5Q5RTw7002210 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 01:27:29 -0400 Received: from d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (d03av01.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.167]) by d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v9.0) with ESMTP id m5Q5WGK6174092 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 23:32:16 -0600 Received: from d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m5Q5WFdx016597 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 23:32:15 -0600 Received: from d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com (d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.142]) by d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m5Q5WFef016592 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 23:32:15 -0600 In-Reply-To: <006801c8c195$7b98d2c0$0202a8c0@T60> To: atom-syntax@imc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: "related" should almost never be used X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 7.0 HF277 June 21, 2006 From: Pete Brunet Message-ID: Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 00:32:13 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D03NM116/03/M/IBM(Release 8.0.1|February 07, 2008) at 06/25/2008 23:32:14, Serialize complete at 06/25/2008 23:32:14 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 001E691A86257474_=" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 001E691A86257474_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >From Brian Smith on 05/29/2008 09:08 AM Basically, rel="related" should almost never be used. If you need the UA to display some links to the user then you should put those links in the atom:content using (X)HTML markup to guarentee (as much as possible) that they show up (since not all Uas expose "related" links). If you don't want the UA to display the link then you should use something other than rel="related" because some UA's will expose all "related" links. Brian, What about rel="enclosure"? Listing 4 at http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-atom10.html shows enclosures like Should enclosures also "almost never be used", but exposed via the content element instead? How would the above enclosure be coded in the content element? What do UAs do with "enclosure"? Do they display the title as link text with the href as the target? I've been thinking of enclosures as large relateds so that is what lead me to ask. Thanks, Pete Brunet IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758 Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155 Ionosphere: WS4G --=_alternative 001E691A86257474_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
From Brian Smith on 05/29/2008 09:08 AM

Basically, rel="related" should almost never be used. If you need the UA to display some links to the user then you should put those links in the atom:content using (X)HTML markup to guarentee (as much as possible) that they show up (since not all Uas expose "related" links). If you don't want the UA to display the link then you should use something other than rel="related" because some UA's will expose all "related" links.

Brian, What about rel="enclosure"?  Listing 4 at http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-atom10.html shows enclosures like

    <link rel="enclosure"
          type="audio/mpeg"
          title="MP3"
          href="http://www.example.org/myaudiofile.mp3"
          length="1234" />

Should enclosures also "almost never be used", but exposed via the content element instead?  How would the above enclosure be coded in the content element?  What do UAs do with "enclosure"?  Do they display the title as link text with the href as the target?

I've been thinking of enclosures as large relateds so that is what lead me to ask.

Thanks,
Pete Brunet
                                                                         
IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155
Ionosphere: WS4G --=_alternative 001E691A86257474_=-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jun 26 06:35:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DA7A3A6AD5 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 06:35:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.665 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.665 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wB+HSsxGroq1 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 06:35:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B60E3A6AD2 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 06:35:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5QD7krp014263 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 26 Jun 2008 06:07:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5QD7k1v014262; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 06:07:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail1.webfaction.com (mail1.webfaction.com [67.15.2.85]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5QD7inv014246 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 06:07:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from sh@defuze.org) Received: from mail1.webfaction.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail1.webfaction.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m5QD7h0s008094; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 08:07:44 -0500 Received: (from apache@localhost) by mail1.webfaction.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/Submit) id m5QD7hFv008091; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 15:07:43 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail1.webfaction.com: apache set sender to sh@defuze.org using -f Received: from 195.101.247.164 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user platom_sylvain) by mail1.webfaction.com with HTTP; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 15:07:43 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44190.195.101.247.164.1214485663.squirrel@mail1.webfaction.com> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 15:07:43 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: "related" should almost never be used From: "Sylvain Hellegouarch" To: "Pete Brunet" Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Reply-To: sh@defuze.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.8-6.el3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: >>From Brian Smith on 05/29/2008 09:08 AM > > Basically, rel="related" should almost never be used. If you need the UA > to display some links to the user then you should put those links in the > atom:content using (X)HTML markup to guarentee (as much as possible) that > they show up (since not all Uas expose "related" links). If you don't want > the UA to display the link then you should use something other than > rel="related" because some UA's will expose all "related" links. > > Brian, What about rel="enclosure"? Listing 4 at > http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-atom10.html shows > enclosures like > > type="audio/mpeg" > title="MP3" > href="http://www.example.org/myaudiofile.mp3" > length="1234" /> > > Should enclosures also "almost never be used", but exposed via the content > element instead? How would the above enclosure be coded in the content > element? What do UAs do with "enclosure"? Do they display the title as > link text with the href as the target? > > I've been thinking of enclosures as large relateds so that is what lead me > to ask. > This is really a context dependent question. If you one sees the World solely through the prism of browsers and feed readers it might make sense to pay more attention to the atom:content than to the meta-data carried by the entry. However, there are other people who use Atom in contexts that have nothing to do with that prism and they quite happily use the whole arsenal of features RFC 4287 provides. - Sylvain -- Sylvain Hellegouarch http://www.defuze.org From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jun 26 10:29:21 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89BDF3A67D8 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:29:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.400, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_41=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R3mcStVYEWTF for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C28E3A68E3 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:29:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5QHCK1i065706 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:12:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5QHCKRK065705; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:12:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from e4.ny.us.ibm.com (e4.ny.us.ibm.com [32.97.182.144]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5QHCIdS065698 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:12:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brunet@us.ibm.com) Received: from d01relay07.pok.ibm.com (d01relay07.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.147]) by e4.ny.us.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m5QHCGRU011134 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 13:12:16 -0400 Received: from d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (d03av05.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.85]) by d01relay07.pok.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v9.0) with ESMTP id m5QHCF2Z1536004 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 13:12:15 -0400 Received: from d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.1/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m5QHCEJI023100 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:12:14 -0600 Received: from d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com (d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.142]) by d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.1/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m5QHCEce023090 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:12:14 -0600 In-Reply-To: <20080618092131.GJ25433@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> To: atom-syntax@imc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Atom and accessibility - Atom vs RSS X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 7.0 HF277 June 21, 2006 From: Pete Brunet Message-ID: Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 12:12:12 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D03NM116/03/M/IBM(Release 8.0.1|February 07, 2008) at 06/26/2008 11:12:13, Serialize complete at 06/26/2008 11:12:13 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 005E7FA186257474_=" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 005E7FA186257474_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From Aristotle Pagaltzis on 06/18/2008 04:21 AM #4 > > A photograph of the Eiffel Tower. > > > #5 > > A photograph of the Eiffel Tower. > > In case #4 I would expect an aggregator to show just the summary along with a link to the image. Some aggregators that allow loading the permalink page when you click on an item, instead of showing in the in-feed content; those would probably try to load the image, in which case they would treat it just like a browser. With #5 I would expect the summary to be shown, with the image downloaded to some directory of the user?s choosing if the user has so configured their reader, and some kind of attachment feature to be provided for viewing the downloaded content. 1) What is expected in this additional case? A photograph of the Eiffel Tower. 2) Is it expected that enclosures are to be downloaded along with the feed = at the time the reader fetches the feed? Do readers ever just expose the=20 link and fetch the enclosure later upon demand by the user, as in case #4? 3) In the cases where links are displayed what is used for the link text? 4) I agree that guidelines are needed. Pete Brunet =20 IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758 Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155 Ionosphere: WS4G --=_alternative 005E7FA186257474_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From Aristotle Pagaltzis on 06/18/20= 08 04:21 AM

<AS>
#4
> <entry>
> <summary>A photograph of the Eiffel Tower.</summary>
> <link rel=3D"alternate" type=3D"image/jpeg" hre= f=3D"eiffeltower.jpg" />
> </entry>
>
#5
> <entry>
> <summary>A photograph of the Eiffel Tower.</summary>
> <link rel=3D"enclosure" type=3D"image/jpeg" hre= f=3D"eiffeltower.jpg" />
> </entry>

In case #4 I would expect an aggregator to show just the summary
along with a link to the image. Some aggregators that allow
loading the permalink page when you click on an item, instead of
showing in the in-feed content; those would probably try to load
the image, in which case they would treat it just like a browser.

With #5 I would expect the summary to be shown, with the image
downloaded to some directory of the user’s choosing if the user
has so configured their reader, and some kind of attachment
feature to be provided for viewing the downloaded content.
</AS>

1) What is expected in this addition= al case?

<entry>
<summary>A photograph of the Eiffel Tower.</summary>
<link rel=3D"related" type=3D"image/jpeg" href=3D&qu= ot;eiffeltower.jpg" />
</entry>

2) Is it expected that enclosures are to be downloaded along with the feed at the time the reader fetches the feed?  Do readers ever just expose the link and fetch the enclosure later upon demand by the user, as in case #4?

3) In the cases where links are disp= layed what is used for the link text?

4) I agree that guidelines are neede= d.

Pete Brunet=
                                                                         
IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155
Ionosphere: WS4G
 --=_alternative 005E7FA186257474_=-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jun 26 11:07:32 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5E473A690C for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:07:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ws7RmEaUTysp for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:07:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 052C33A6A1A for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5QHtWA1069221 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:55:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5QHtW7H069220; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:55:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-out4.apple.com (mail-out4.apple.com [17.254.13.23]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5QHtVox069211 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:55:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from prabhaka@apple.com) Received: from relay13.apple.com (relay13.apple.com [17.128.113.29]) by mail-out4.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30F703212A19; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:55:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay13.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay13.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 156DF28082; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:55:31 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 1180711d-a6fffbb000000ece-91-4863d8128c86 Received: from [17.203.46.207] (il0304b-dhcp79.apple.com [17.203.46.207]) by relay13.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id EE17A2807E; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:55:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Ernest Prabhakar Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1018.1) To: Pete Brunet Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Message-Id: <05900794-123A-43EC-9B47-6F4EB6FDB713@apple.com> Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:55:30 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Atom and accessibility - Atom vs RSS X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1018.1) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hi Pete, On Jun 26, 2008, at 10:12 AM, Pete Brunet wrote: > 2) Is it expected that enclosures are to be downloaded along with > the feed at the time the reader fetches the feed? Do readers ever > just expose the link and fetch the enclosure later upon demand by > the user, as in case #4? My understanding is that enclosure is *by definition* something that should be pre-fetched, as opposed to ordinary links which are dereferenced when clicked by the user. For readers that are web browsers, I think that distinction is usually observed. -enp From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jun 26 11:20:49 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AA303A6A45 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:20:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_12=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z8CizvlT3xYV for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:20:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE2693A6934 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5QI8T9n070280 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:08:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5QI8TDo070279; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:08:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id m5QI8RXc070272 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:08:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from pagaltzis@gmx.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 26 Jun 2008 18:08:25 -0000 Received: from static-87-79-236-202.netcologne.de (EHLO klangraum) [87.79.236.202] by mail.gmx.net (mp046) with SMTP; 26 Jun 2008 20:08:25 +0200 X-Authenticated: #163624 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+5vclZjGy5pacayauEh4u6RAKomA/3xqFfqSb26x lT1WfJbWfbnM0V Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 20:08:25 +0200 From: Aristotle Pagaltzis To: atom-syntax@imc.org Subject: Re: Atom and accessibility - Atom vs RSS Message-ID: <20080626180825.GC7025@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> Mail-Followup-To: atom-syntax@imc.org References: <20080618092131.GJ25433@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: * Pete Brunet [2008-06-26 19:30]: > > A photograph of the Eiffel Tower. > > That’s just a summary along with an auxiliary link, and that’s how I would expect them to be shown. > 2) Is it expected that enclosures are to be downloaded along > with the feed at the time the reader fetches the feed? Do > readers ever just expose the link and fetch the enclosure later > upon demand by the user, as in case #4? Yes to both questions. User agents are always free to do whatever they want. The purpose of the enclosure relation is so that a publisher can say “this is a potentially large blob of multimedia data that subscribers will probably want to consume in some sort of off-screen/off-line setting” (such as the many people that listen to podcasts during commutes). This is much more to do with human than technical factors; in general, the publisher sets up the expectation for subcribers that periodically produced blobs of multimedia will be advertised using this feed. The `enclosure` relation is just the technical signal by which allows tools to support this use case. > 3) In the cases where links are displayed what is used for the > link text? The obvious first candidate is `atom:link`’s `title` attribute. In general I would expect the `href` to be shown in absence of a title, although there are exceptions. F.ex. in the case of `alternate` links, `atom:link/@title` is redundant. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Thu Jun 26 17:45:08 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A162C3A67FB for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:45:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.078 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.078 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.320, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GL0xgnFqavMI for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:45:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 316B83A67A8 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5R0YPPE095236 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:34:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5R0YP0N095235; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:34:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from e31.co.us.ibm.com (e31.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.149]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5R0YMYe095220 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:34:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brunet@us.ibm.com) Received: from d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.106]) by e31.co.us.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m5R0YLgD010605 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 20:34:21 -0400 Received: from d03av03.boulder.ibm.com (d03av03.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.169]) by d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v9.0) with ESMTP id m5R0YJWA164046 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 18:34:20 -0600 Received: from d03av03.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av03.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m5R0YJkf024516 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 18:34:19 -0600 Received: from d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com (d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.142]) by d03av03.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m5R0YJjY024513 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 18:34:19 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Alternative media and a11y X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 7.0 HF277 June 21, 2006 From: Pete Brunet Message-ID: Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 19:34:17 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D03NM116/03/M/IBM(Release 8.0.1|February 07, 2008) at 06/26/2008 18:34:18, Serialize complete at 06/26/2008 18:34:18 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0003229F86257475_=" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0003229F86257475_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Earlier I asked about alternative media could be provided for a11y use. Brian Smith suggested 3 alternatives: 1) The media could have alternatives embedded 2) There could be n number of links in the feed to alternatives, each with a new rel value, e.g. rel="large-print", rel="blind", rel="deaf", rel="transcript", rel="captioned". 3) Put alternative text in the atom:summary field. Option 1, using something like SMIL (or Flash or Quicktime or some format that supports embedding), is a good solution, but totally separate forms of content might be preferable for some publishers. Option 2 might not be acceptable since it seems like this community feels it's best to not have too many possible values for rel. Option 3 would be OK for a fairly short description but wouldn't be suitable for alternative media Most a11y architectures provide for a short description like the title, a longer description like the summary, and then the content itself. Often the title and summary will be good enough. But often an alternative file is needed. I can think of these ways to provide the alternatives: 1) Option 2 above, i.e. links with new rel values 2) Use n links with rel="related" and let the reader sort it out via the MIME type. 3) Handle the whole thing inside the content element with some form of foreign XML. Does anyone have initial thoughts on those three options? I'm looking into application to Atom of a system developed by the IMS Global Learning Consortium called Access For All. It's standardized both by IMS/GLC and ISO/IEC. It provides for users needs and preferences to be defined via one spec and media meta data to be defined in a companion spec. Systems (non-Atom based) exist that use these two specs and match the user preferences to the meta data choosing the appropriate alternative resource based on the user capabilities. The handling of the user preferences and the matching would have to be in a feed reader or a mashup handler. The media (or links to the media) and resource meta data would have to be passed through Atom to the feed reader or mashup client. Based on that short description does anyone have a feeling how to best handle the transmittal of the metadata and media? I will be meeting with someone that's implemented Access For All to understand how this is done in a system called TILE, "The Inclusive Learning Exchange". See http://inclusivelearning.ca/ Hopefully this will help me understand better how A4A could be applied in an Atom environment. Some links: A4A specs from IMS/GLC: The preferences spec is call AccLIP (Learner Info Package), the resource meta data spec is called AccMD http://www.imsglobal.org/accessibility/index.html ISO equivalents: The preferences spec is called PNP (Personal Needs and Preferences) an the meta data spec is called DRD (Digital Resource Description) Overview: http://jtc1sc36.org/doc/36N1139.pdf PNP: http://jtc1sc36.org/doc/36N1140.pdf DRD: http://jtc1sc36.org/doc/36N1141.pdf Pete Brunet IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758 Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155 Ionosphere: WS4G --=_alternative 0003229F86257475_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Earlier I asked about alternative media could be provided for a11y use.  Brian Smith suggested 3 alternatives:

1) The media could have alternatives embedded
2) There could be n number of links in the feed to alternatives, each with a new rel value, e.g. rel="large-print", rel="blind", rel="deaf", rel="transcript", rel="captioned".
3) Put alternative text in the atom:summary field.

Option 1, using something like SMIL (or Flash or Quicktime or some format that supports embedding), is a good solution, but totally separate forms of content might be preferable for some publishers.
Option 2 might not be acceptable since it seems like this community feels it's best to not have too many possible values for rel.
Option 3 would be OK for a fairly short description but wouldn't be suitable for alternative media

Most a11y architectures provide for a short description like the title, a longer description like the summary, and then the content itself.  Often the title and summary will be good enough.  But often an alternative file is needed.

I can think of these ways to provide the alternatives:
1) Option 2 above, i.e. links with new rel values
2) Use n links with rel="related" and let the reader sort it out via the MIME type.
3) Handle the whole thing inside the content element with some form of foreign XML.

Does anyone have initial thoughts on those three options?

I'm looking into application to Atom of a system developed by the IMS Global Learning Consortium called Access For All.  It's standardized both by IMS/GLC and ISO/IEC.  It provides for users needs and preferences to be defined via one spec and media meta data to be defined in a companion spec.  Systems (non-Atom based) exist that use these two specs and match the user preferences to the meta data choosing the appropriate alternative resource based on the user capabilities.  

The handling of the user preferences and the matching would have to be in a feed reader or a mashup handler.  The media (or links to the media) and resource meta data would have to be passed through Atom to the feed reader or mashup client.

Based on that short description does anyone have a feeling how to best handle the transmittal of the metadata and media?

I will be meeting with someone that's implemented Access For All to understand how this is done in a system called TILE, "The Inclusive Learning Exchange".  See http://inclusivelearning.ca/  Hopefully this will help me understand better how A4A could be applied in an Atom environment.

Some links:

A4A specs from IMS/GLC:
The preferences spec is call AccLIP (Learner Info Package), the resource meta data spec is called AccMD
http://www.imsglobal.org/accessibility/index.html

ISO equivalents:  
The preferences spec is called PNP (Personal Needs and Preferences) an the meta data spec is called DRD (Digital Resource Description)
Overview:  http://jtc1sc36.org/doc/36N1139.pdf
PNP:  http://jtc1sc36.org/doc/36N1140.pdf
DRD:  http://jtc1sc36.org/doc/36N1141.pdf

Pete Brunet
                                                                         
IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155
Ionosphere: WS4G
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Visit Diamond Replicas today! http://lufopynalyt63.blogspot.com/ From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jun 27 08:25:06 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDEA928C146 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 08:25:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.431 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.431 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.567, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rSb1V+wGh0+9 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 08:25:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE4BA28C140 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 08:25:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5RFFcpb064360 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 27 Jun 2008 08:15:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5RFFcLU064359; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 08:15:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from e36.co.us.ibm.com (e36.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.154]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5RFFanm064346 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 08:15:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brunet@us.ibm.com) Received: from d03relay05.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay05.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.107]) by e36.co.us.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m5RFFZ8R016660 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 11:15:35 -0400 Received: from d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (d03av04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.170]) by d03relay05.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v9.0) with ESMTP id m5RFFH61136674 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 09:15:23 -0600 Received: from d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m5RFFHcR013657 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 09:15:17 -0600 Received: from d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com (d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.142]) by d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m5RFFEC3013353 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 09:15:14 -0600 To: atom-syntax@imc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Delivering Atom feeds from CICS X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 7.0 HF277 June 21, 2006 From: Pete Brunet Message-ID: Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 10:15:12 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D03NM116/03/M/IBM(Release 8.0.1|February 07, 2008) at 06/27/2008 09:15:13, Serialize complete at 06/27/2008 09:15:13 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0053C9CF86257475_=" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0053C9CF86257475_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I just ran into this today. It might be of interest to some of you if you haven't seen it before: http://www-1.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?rs=1083&uid=swg24018619 Pete Brunet IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758 Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155 Ionosphere: WS4G --=_alternative 0053C9CF86257475_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
I just ran into this today.  It might be of interest to some of you if you haven't seen it before:

http://www-1.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?rs=1083&uid=swg24018619

Pete Brunet
                                                                         
IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155
Ionosphere: WS4G
 --=_alternative 0053C9CF86257475_=-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Fri Jun 27 13:50:05 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6EED3A68E6 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 13:50:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uQdrs-Url41V for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 13:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EE5D3A6813 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 13:50:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5RKeCJE087620 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 27 Jun 2008 13:40:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5RKeCN3087619; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 13:40:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [216.86.168.178]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5RKeAho087611 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 13:40:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brian@briansmith.org) Received: from T60 (unknown [70.252.167.222]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BB1823E3E7; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 16:40:07 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brian Smith" To: "'James M Snell'" , "'Atom Syntax'" References: <48625F29.6040100@gmail.com> Subject: RE: MIME Media type syntax for atom:link/@type and atom:content/@type Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 15:40:12 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <48625F29.6040100@gmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Thread-Index: AcjW1bHVacmtXzeNS0OcPRjIaqvyRwBvOruw Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: James M Snell wrote: > Brian Smith wrote: > > Can atom:link/@type and atom:content/@type reference media > > types with parameters like "application/atom+xml;type=entry"? > > If so, what is the syntax supposed to be? > > Of course. The syntax is nothing special: > > > > Quoted parameters will need to be escaped of course... > > href="..." /> I understand the general syntax. However, the details are what I am unsure about. : 1. What leading/trailing/internal whitespace is allowed? (Right now I allow all this whitespace, just as RFC 2616 does for Content-Type.) 2. What characters are allowed in a parameter value? (Currently, I do as RFC 2616 does.) 3. What escaping mechanism is used for quoted parameter values? For example, how would one represent a parameter value containing a '"'? (Currently, I use the backslash as the escape character like RFC 2616 does.) 4. How do you handle codepoints above \u007f and especually above \u00ff in parameter values? Right now I allow only characters that are in ISO-5591-1. 5. Should we really restrict parameter names to RFC 4288 reg-name? (Right now, I use the RFC 2616 token production, which is more general.) I have a validator in my software which accepts every valid entry and rejects every invalid entry. It already handles all these edge caes but I would like to know if anybody disagrees with any of the decisions I have made. Thanks, Brian From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jun 28 13:16:44 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7F6D3A6891 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 13:16:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.212 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.212 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.186, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_48=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B7HocFvEVFj6 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 13:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73D933A63D3 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 13:16:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5SK5CPT071155 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 28 Jun 2008 13:05:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5SK5CFs071154; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 13:05:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from e35.co.us.ibm.com (e35.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.153]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5SK5BCG071147 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 13:05:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brunet@us.ibm.com) Received: from d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.106]) by e35.co.us.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m5SK5A2C017336 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 16:05:10 -0400 Received: from d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (d03av01.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.167]) by d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v9.0) with ESMTP id m5SK50UW164636 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 14:05:10 -0600 Received: from d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m5SK50sW014237 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 14:05:00 -0600 Received: from d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com (d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.142]) by d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m5SK50Wm014234 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 14:05:00 -0600 In-Reply-To: <484A8190.9040109@defuze.org> To: atom-syntax@imc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Atom and accessibility - Atom vs RSS X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 7.0 HF277 June 21, 2006 From: Pete Brunet Message-ID: Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 15:04:59 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D03NM116/03/M/IBM(Release 8.0.1|February 07, 2008) at 06/28/2008 14:04:59, Serialize complete at 06/28/2008 14:04:59 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 006E504B86257476_=" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 006E504B86257476_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >From Sylvain Hellegouarch on June 07: >atom:link and atom:category elements are even more interesting Thanks Sylvain, How does that help accessibility? Pete Brunet IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758 Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155 Ionosphere: WS4G --=_alternative 006E504B86257476_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
From Sylvain Hellegouarch on June 07:

>atom:link and atom:category elements are even more interesting

Thanks Sylvain, How does that help accessibility?

Pete Brunet
                                                                         
IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155
Ionosphere: WS4G --=_alternative 006E504B86257476_=-- From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Sat Jun 28 17:05:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-atompub-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53FB93A6995 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:05:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.536 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.536 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.462, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fa+MZ8unAtbl for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE7323A68CF for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5SNtmuR082961 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 28 Jun 2008 16:55:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m5SNtmBL082960; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 16:55:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from e34.co.us.ibm.com (e34.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.152]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5SNtlQH082953 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 16:55:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brunet@us.ibm.com) Received: from d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.106]) by e34.co.us.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m5SNtkmE028273 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 19:55:46 -0400 Received: from d03av02.boulder.ibm.com (d03av02.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.168]) by d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v9.0) with ESMTP id m5SNtfDA108390 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:55:46 -0600 Received: from d03av02.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av02.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m5SNtfuL015216 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:55:41 -0600 Received: from d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com (d03nm116.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.142]) by d03av02.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m5SNtfVN015213 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:55:41 -0600 In-Reply-To: <4849692D.6040008@gmail.com> To: atom-syntax@imc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Atom and accessibility - Atom vs RSS X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 7.0 HF277 June 21, 2006 From: Pete Brunet Message-ID: Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 18:55:37 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D03NM116/03/M/IBM(Release 8.0.1|February 07, 2008) at 06/28/2008 17:55:40, Serialize complete at 06/28/2008 17:55:40 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 00836D9A86257476_=" Sender: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 00836D9A86257476_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" On June 6 James Snell wrote: >there is significant ambiguity in the RSS content model that makes it difficult (at best) for software to determine automatically whether an entry contains markup or plain text. I'd like to include this information in an Atom accessibility guideline but I need some more detail to help me undertand the issue. Pete Brunet IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758 Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155 Ionosphere: WS4G --=_alternative 00836D9A86257476_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
On June 6 James Snell wrote:

>there is significant ambiguity in the RSS content model that makes it difficult (at best) for software to determine automatically whether an entry contains markup or plain text.

I'd like to include this information in an Atom accessibility guideline but I need some more detail to help me undertand the issue.

Pete Brunet
                                                                         
IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155
Ionosphere: WS4G --=_alternative 00836D9A86257476_=--