From mei@cosmosgifts.com  Thu Jan  1 03:49:11 2009
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Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 06:48:39 -0500
From: "Lesley Moser" <atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org>
Subject: Take a look at the Chopard watches!
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Dear Lesley,

Christmas is the time to get Gucci watch, and the only place to get top notch watches that look and perform exactly like the originals is
http://www.peonmind.com/

Take an extra 15% off your purchase during month of December.
http://www.peonmind.com/

Our Gucci have Weights/feels and looks exactly same as original.

Sincerely,
Mr Moser



From junstin.berehowyj@aafc.org.au  Thu Jan  1 05:31:23 2009
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From a1aaa1azzzz1zaaaaa@wasou.com  Thu Jan  1 11:24:27 2009
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Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 14:23:44 -0500
From: "Sonia Ward" <atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org>
Subject: Take a look at the Franck Muller watches!
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Dear Sonia,

If you've waited to get your Bvlgari watch, this is the right time to go for it.
http://www.peonmine.com/

We are offering wholesaler prices on all watches during the month of December. 
http://www.peonmine.com/

Our Bvlgari have all appropriate markings, wordings and engravings same as orginal.

Sincerely,
Mr Ward



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Thu Jan  1 16:45:25 2009
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Hi folks,

A small group of which I'm a member has been working on a specification 
for describing activities as Atom entries. An "activity" for our 
purposes is an action a user has taken on a social website, such as 
posting a photo or marking it as a favorite.

The draft we have so far is here:
     http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/atomactivity

In the process of working this through, we discovered a number of other 
problems that we believe require Atom extensions to solve, so we've also 
got drafts of a number of peripheral specifications.

As Sam Ruby posted earlier in the month[1], one issue encountered was 
the lack of a standard way to publish media items such as photos and 
videos in Atom. While a couple of publishers (notably Google properties) 
use the elements from MediaRSS for this purpose, the few implementations 
I found were inconsistent. It was suggested that a more Atom-shaped 
media specification might be useful, so we drafted up this:
     http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/atommedia

We also have a small specification for describing the "service provider" 
that hosts a feed (for example, YouTube or Twitter). This is intended to 
be similar in design to atom:author.
     http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/provider

Finally, we have a small extension to Atom Threading Extensions to allow 
some metadata about the parent entry to be included in the child so that 
consumers can avoid fetching source feeds in certain cases. This is 
intended to be similar in principle to atom:source
     http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/commentmeta

I'm well aware that these drafts need plenty more editorial work, and 
may need more detail in certain spots, but since some folks are ready to 
start implementing based on these drafts I wanted to throw them out here 
to get a few more eyes on them, so that if there are any major problems 
with the technical direction we're taking we might fix them before there 
are too many implementations to change.

I would appreciate it if folks here would cast a critical eye over what 
we're proposing and let me know if you see fundamental flaws in our 
approach to any of these problems.

We will of course continue to refine these documents and hopefully we 
would be able to bring some or all of them over here and work on them 
with the wider Atom community.

Thanks,
Martin

-----------------------------------------

[1]http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg20818.html



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Thu Jan  1 20:02:43 2009
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Cc: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
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From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
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Subject: Re: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 22:54:49 -0500
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Hi Martin,

Interesting stuff. Are you actually submitting these as Internet- 
Drafts? (please do, if not already...).

Cheers,


On 01/01/2009, at 7:37 PM, Martin Atkins wrote:

>
>
> Hi folks,
>
> A small group of which I'm a member has been working on a  
> specification for describing activities as Atom entries. An  
> "activity" for our purposes is an action a user has taken on a  
> social website, such as posting a photo or marking it as a favorite.
>
> The draft we have so far is here:
>    http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/atomactivity
>
> In the process of working this through, we discovered a number of  
> other problems that we believe require Atom extensions to solve, so  
> we've also got drafts of a number of peripheral specifications.
>
> As Sam Ruby posted earlier in the month[1], one issue encountered  
> was the lack of a standard way to publish media items such as photos  
> and videos in Atom. While a couple of publishers (notably Google  
> properties) use the elements from MediaRSS for this purpose, the few  
> implementations I found were inconsistent. It was suggested that a  
> more Atom-shaped media specification might be useful, so we drafted  
> up this:
>    http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/atommedia
>
> We also have a small specification for describing the "service  
> provider" that hosts a feed (for example, YouTube or Twitter). This  
> is intended to be similar in design to atom:author.
>    http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/provider
>
> Finally, we have a small extension to Atom Threading Extensions to  
> allow some metadata about the parent entry to be included in the  
> child so that consumers can avoid fetching source feeds in certain  
> cases. This is intended to be similar in principle to atom:source
>    http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/commentmeta
>
> I'm well aware that these drafts need plenty more editorial work,  
> and may need more detail in certain spots, but since some folks are  
> ready to start implementing based on these drafts I wanted to throw  
> them out here to get a few more eyes on them, so that if there are  
> any major problems with the technical direction we're taking we  
> might fix them before there are too many implementations to change.
>
> I would appreciate it if folks here would cast a critical eye over  
> what we're proposing and let me know if you see fundamental flaws in  
> our approach to any of these problems.
>
> We will of course continue to refine these documents and hopefully  
> we would be able to bring some or all of them over here and work on  
> them with the wider Atom community.
>
> Thanks,
> Martin
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
> [1]http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg20818.html
>


--
Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/



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Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 07:50:47 +0100
To: "Phil Archer" <phil@philarcher.org>,
        "Anne van Kesteren"
 <annevk@opera.com>
Subject: Re: link relationship registration
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On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:50:09 +0100, Phil Archer <phil@philarcher.org> wrote:

> Case sensitivity is an issue. Hmmm... can 04 say that tokens given as  
> rel types SHOULD be lower case and that UAs SHOULD treat such tokens as  
> case insensitive? Would that put too much of a strain on saying that  
> tokens are treated as relative URIs? (I know that paths are case  
> sensitive).

Is perhaps RFC 4287's definition of atom:id a good starting place for defining how this token should be created, matched, etc.?

  <http://www.atompub.org/rfc4287.html#element.id>

> There shouldn't be any need for UAs to resolve tokens given as values  
> for @rel as absolute URIs and no one's suggesting that UAs should  
> actually make an HTTP request of any kind to iana.org every time there's  
> a link to a stylesheet. It's the person minting the new relationship  
> type that needs to check. What it means is that if you create a link  
> (HTML or HTTP) and use a @rel type 'foo' that gives a 404 from  
> http://www.iana.org/assignments/relation/foo then you really shouldn't  
> expect UAs to do anything sensible with it.

I think this is basically the same old "should a URI be resolvable" discussion we've been having for years, especially wrt XML namespaces and as mentioned; the atom:id element.

> Whether a UA chooses to actually implement support for a registered @rel  
> type remains very much up to the UA developer of course.

Entirely up to, imho.

-- 
Asbjørn Ulsberg         -=|=-          asbjorn@ulsberg.no
«He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away»




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From: "James Holderness" <j4_james@hotmail.com>
To: "Atom Syntax" <atom-syntax@imc.org>
References: <495D61CA.4040503@degeneration.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams
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Martin Atkins wrote:
> It was suggested that a more Atom-shaped media specification might be 
> useful, so we drafted up this:
>     http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/atommedia

At first glance that all seems fairly reasonable to me. The only thing that 
concerned me was the media:description element. Is there any reason why the 
atom:summary element wouldn't work just as well?

I'm trying to imagine how I would construct a feed if I were a photo service 
like say flickr. The title is obvious, the content I'd probably put an html 
img thumbnail along with a more detailed description if the author had 
provided one, and the summary would just be the aforementioned description. 
I can't see what I'd do with the media:description element other than 
duplicate the atom:summary.

Is there a specific use-case that I'm missing?

> We also have a small specification for describing the "service provider" 
> that hosts a feed (for example, YouTube or Twitter). This is intended to 
> be similar in design to atom:author.
>     http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/provider

It's worth pointing out that some feed parsers might be confused by the use 
of existing atom:elements. For example they'll interpret your 
service:provider title as the title of the feed. I know Planet Venus used to 
have problems with that sort of thing, although it's possible it has since 
been fixed.

Also, it could be argued that you're redefining the meaning of the atom 
elements. In RFC4287, atom:title is defined as "a human-readable title for 
an entry or feed". That's not how you're using it at all. I'm not sure if 
that sort of thing matters.

Regards
James



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James Holderness wrote:
> 
> Martin Atkins wrote:
>> It was suggested that a more Atom-shaped media specification might be 
>> useful, so we drafted up this:
>>     http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/atommedia
> 
> At first glance that all seems fairly reasonable to me. The only thing 
> that concerned me was the media:description element. Is there any reason 
> why the atom:summary element wouldn't work just as well?
> 
> I'm trying to imagine how I would construct a feed if I were a photo 
> service like say flickr. The title is obvious, the content I'd probably 
> put an html img thumbnail along with a more detailed description if the 
> author had provided one, and the summary would just be the 
> aforementioned description. I can't see what I'd do with the 
> media:description element other than duplicate the atom:summary.
> 
> Is there a specific use-case that I'm missing?
>

One of the principles I've been following with this stuff is to avoid 
repurposing existing Atom elements that might be used by generic feed 
readers, because sites will not want to alter what they're sending to 
generic feed readers in order to support the new media bits.

However, if it turns out that most publishers aren't using atom:summary, 
that most aggregators don't do anything with it, or that publishers were 
using it to contain the media description anyway then I'd be happy to 
remove it. It wasn't really a feature I felt strongly about other than 
avoiding clashes with existing implementations.

>> We also have a small specification for describing the "service 
>> provider" that hosts a feed (for example, YouTube or Twitter). This is 
>> intended to be similar in design to atom:author.
>>     http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/provider
> 
> It's worth pointing out that some feed parsers might be confused by the 
> use of existing atom:elements. For example they'll interpret your 
> service:provider title as the title of the feed. I know Planet Venus 
> used to have problems with that sort of thing, although it's possible it 
> has since been fixed.
> 

If this is true then that would certainly be a problem. I can see how 
this sort of thing happens, having inadvertently introduced a similar 
bug by using getElementsByTagNameNS instead of getting only child nodes. 
Wouldn't suprise me if other implementations do it too, though hopefully 
they'd be okay as long as the feed-level atom:title appears before 
atom:provider; otherwise I'd expect such implementations to also 
interpret the entry-level atom:title as the feed title.

I could add in a requirement that service:provider must appear after 
atom:title if that would avoid this bug.

> Also, it could be argued that you're redefining the meaning of the atom 
> elements. In RFC4287, atom:title is defined as "a human-readable title 
> for an entry or feed". That's not how you're using it at all. I'm not 
> sure if that sort of thing matters.
> 

I'm also not sure if this sort of thing matters. For what it's worth, I 
did also consider using atom:name, the child of atom:author for this 
purpose, since we're really talking about the name of the provider 
rather than its title. The choice between title and name was arbitrary, 
to be honest.

However, I could rewrite it to use custom elements if folks think 
extending the reach of these Atom elements is wrong. I was motivated by 
trying to make service:provider similar to atom:author, but I guess 
really atom:name would have been more consistent than atom:title in that 
case.




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Martin Atkins:
> One of the principles I've been following with this stuff is to avoid 
> repurposing existing Atom elements that might be used by generic feed 
> readers, because sites will not want to alter what they're sending to 
> generic feed readers in order to support the new media bits.

I have similar concerns, but different conclusions. From what I've seen of 
feeds in the wild, I get the impression that sites tend to take whatever 
data they have available, and shove it into whatever fields look more or 
less appropriate.

In the best case, you'll get an identical copy of the summary element. Worst 
case you'll get a copy of the content element which may be a huge HTML blob, 
complete with embedded image thumbnails and all sorts of unwanted metadata.

Either way you've created an element that's just a duplicate of existing 
data. Have a look at all the RSS feeds out there using itunes and yahoo 
media rss extensions. You tend to see the same content repeated a half dozen 
times in different fields. I'd prefer this spec didn't encourage more of 
that sort of thing.

IMHO you'd be better off encouraging sites to produce a good summary element 
rather than trying to invent a new element that does essentially the same 
thing. But that really is just MHO. I do see where you're coming from.

>> It's worth pointing out that some feed parsers might be confused by the 
>> use of existing atom:elements.
>
> If this is true then that would certainly be a problem.

I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it. I ran some tests overnight on a 
couple of feed readers and most seem ok (I wasn't specifically testing your 
usage - just general forms of nested element reuse).

> Wouldn't suprise me if other implementations do it too, though hopefully 
> they'd be okay as long as the feed-level atom:title appears before 
> atom:provider;

As a general rule that doesn't necessarily apply, but for the specific 
failure cases I've seen at the feed level, having the atom:title first would 
have avoided the problem.

> I could add in a requirement that service:provider must appear after 
> atom:title if that would avoid this bug.

I don't think it would harm, but IMO that sort of thing belongs in an 
interoperability appendix - not in the main body of the spec.

> I'm also not sure if this sort of thing matters. For what it's worth, I 
> did also consider using atom:name, the child of atom:author for this 
> purpose, since we're really talking about the name of the provider rather 
> than its title.

If I had to choose, I'd say atom:name was more appropriate. Your usage seems 
pretty close to the RFC4287 definition.

> However, I could rewrite it to use custom elements if folks think 
> extending the reach of these Atom elements is wrong.

I honestly don't know. I was kind of hoping that some IETF expert on the 
list would express an opinion once I'd raised the issue.

Regards
James



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From wsr@resultstracker.net  Sat Jan  3 23:19:01 2009
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Dear Adolfo,

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From m.hayamaebyu@amada.co.jp  Sun Jan  4 13:09:43 2009
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From gail@dwcuk.com  Sun Jan  4 13:57:56 2009
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Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 16:57:24 -0500
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Dear Benny,

I had never seen such beautiful and greatly-performing watches like the ones I found online at
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From mitchpittman@aennepress.it  Mon Jan  5 16:40:42 2009
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From champman@platinuminternet.com  Mon Jan  5 22:30:11 2009
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From: "Elaine Dubois" <atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org>
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Subject: Patek Phillipe watch models from 2009!
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Dear Elaine,

New Year is the time to get Breitling watch, and the only place to get top notch watches that look and perform exactly like the originals is
http://www.maypad.com/ 

Take an extra 15% off your purchase during month of January (2009).
http://www.maypad.com/ 

Our Breitling have all appropriate markings, wordings and engravings same as orginal.

Sincerely,
Mr Dubois


From kawasaki@aig.co.jp  Tue Jan  6 01:41:53 2009
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podmena traffica test


From jester@airstreamcomm.net  Tue Jan  6 09:58:39 2009
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Happy New Year.

I want to add content to an atom:entry, but it's intended for use by 
computers not humans. I know atom:content can hold arbitrary XML, but I'm 
not sure if I should use that or if I should put it as a direct child of 
the atom:entry element.

I don't like usurping the "human-readable" intent of atom:content. Also, 
since it's Language-Sensitive, I have a slight concern about someone 
translating machine field names and the like. There's a (slight) chance 
that the content could from different components, which is why I prefer 
inserting elements into atom:entry instead of "rewriting" atom:content.  I 
don't have any justficiation for that other than "gut feel" however.

I want to be able to associate a schema with the data (see 
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/soma), and using atom:entry 
seems cleaner.  But it's a small matter to say the schema link relation is 
scoped to the atom:entry atomInlineOtherContent type.

So, what should I do?

        /r$

--
Visiting Member, IBM Academy
STSM, DataPower Chief Programmer
WebSphere DataPower SOA Appliances
http://www.ibm.com/software/integration/datapower/



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Tue Jan  6 15:20:39 2009
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Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 15:14:09 -0800
From: Martin Atkins <mart@degeneration.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: Is atom:content *the* place to put content?
References: <OFCDCF7799.CB54EF7D-ON85257536.007273D5-85257536.007E7EFC@us.ibm.com>
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Richard Salz wrote:
> Happy New Year.
> 
> I want to add content to an atom:entry, but it's intended for use by 
> computers not humans. I know atom:content can hold arbitrary XML, but I'm 
> not sure if I should use that or if I should put it as a direct child of 
> the atom:entry element.
> 
> I don't like usurping the "human-readable" intent of atom:content. Also, 
> since it's Language-Sensitive, I have a slight concern about someone 
> translating machine field names and the like. There's a (slight) chance 
> that the content could from different components, which is why I prefer 
> inserting elements into atom:entry instead of "rewriting" atom:content.  I 
> don't have any justficiation for that other than "gut feel" however.
> 
> I want to be able to associate a schema with the data (see 
> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/soma), and using atom:entry 
> seems cleaner.  But it's a small matter to say the schema link relation is 
> scoped to the atom:entry atomInlineOtherContent type.
> 

In practice, you don't want to put anything other than HTML in 
atom:content if you intend this feed to be consumed by general Atom 
processors and aggregators. Many aggregators (and feed re-publishers) 
will misbehave with anything other than <content type="html"> and 
escaped content.

You can add arbitrary XML elements as children of atom:entry, and use 
xml:lang to define what human language is within.

Of course, if you intend this feed to only ever be consumed by your own 
software it doesn't really matter what you do as long as your producer 
and your consumer agree.

If you are able to give more details about specifically what you are 
trying to do folks might be able to suggest a way to do it that does not 
involve extending Atom at all, at least at the XML level.



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One thing that needs to be kept in mind... and that feed reader 
developers need to make sure they're handling properly... is that Atom 
intentionally provides two locations for human readable content: 
atom:content and atom:summary.  If the atom:content element does not 
contain readily displayable content (like HTML), then the atom:summary 
element should be used to provide some kind of displayable approximation.

- James

Martin Atkins wrote:
>
> Richard Salz wrote:
>> Happy New Year.
>>
>> I want to add content to an atom:entry, but it's intended for use by 
>> computers not humans. I know atom:content can hold arbitrary XML, but 
>> I'm not sure if I should use that or if I should put it as a direct 
>> child of the atom:entry element.
>>
>> I don't like usurping the "human-readable" intent of atom:content. 
>> Also, since it's Language-Sensitive, I have a slight concern about 
>> someone translating machine field names and the like. There's a 
>> (slight) chance that the content could from different components, 
>> which is why I prefer inserting elements into atom:entry instead of 
>> "rewriting" atom:content.  I don't have any justficiation for that 
>> other than "gut feel" however.
>>
>> I want to be able to associate a schema with the data (see 
>> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/soma), and using 
>> atom:entry seems cleaner.  But it's a small matter to say the schema 
>> link relation is scoped to the atom:entry atomInlineOtherContent type.
>>
>
> In practice, you don't want to put anything other than HTML in 
> atom:content if you intend this feed to be consumed by general Atom 
> processors and aggregators. Many aggregators (and feed re-publishers) 
> will misbehave with anything other than <content type="html"> and 
> escaped content.
>
> You can add arbitrary XML elements as children of atom:entry, and use 
> xml:lang to define what human language is within.
>
> Of course, if you intend this feed to only ever be consumed by your 
> own software it doesn't really matter what you do as long as your 
> producer and your consumer agree.
>
> If you are able to give more details about specifically what you are 
> trying to do folks might be able to suggest a way to do it that does 
> not involve extending Atom at all, at least at the XML level.
>
>



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From: Aristotle Pagaltzis <pagaltzis@gmx.de>
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Subject: Re: Is atom:content *the* place to put content?
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* Richard Salz <rsalz@us.ibm.com> [2009-01-07 00:15]:
> I don't like usurping the "human-readable" intent of atom:content.

Atom makes no constraint that the content be human-readable. That
was in fact one of the goals differentiating it from RSS: the
ability to carry content other than plaintext or HTML.

If you want the feed to also be human-consumable, provide a
reasonable facsimile of the context in text or HTML form in the
summary.

Regards,
-- 
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>



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Subject: Re: Is atom:content *the* place to put content?
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James Snell wrote:
> One thing that needs to be kept in mind... and that feed reader developers 
> need to make sure they're handling properly... is that Atom intentionally 
> provides two locations for human readable content: atom:content and 
> atom:summary.  If the atom:content element does not contain readily 
> displayable content (like HTML), then the atom:summary element should be 
> used to provide some kind of displayable approximation.


But feed producers also need to bare in mind that the summary element is not 
the place for alternate representations (in the sense of 
multipart/alternate). You don't put an XML document format in the content 
and then an alternate HTML version in the summary. Nor do you but a image 
format in the content an HTML img thumbnail in the summary (I'm looking at 
you, Picasa).

The summary should be a short, human-readable, text abstract or excerpt.

Regards
James



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From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Thu Jan  8 08:46:50 2009
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From: Dare Obasanjo <dareo@microsoft.com>
To: Martin Atkins <mart@degeneration.co.uk>, Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 08:37:03 -0800
Subject: RE: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams
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Quick question, who are the members of this "small group" and what is the p=
rocess for getting changes/updates to the spec?

--
THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #110
I will not employ devious schemes that involve the hero's party getting int=
o my inner sanctum before the trap is sprung

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org=
] On Behalf Of Martin Atkins
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 4:38 PM
To: Atom Syntax
Subject: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams



Hi folks,

A small group of which I'm a member has been working on a specification
for describing activities as Atom entries. An "activity" for our
purposes is an action a user has taken on a social website, such as
posting a photo or marking it as a favorite.

The draft we have so far is here:
     http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/atomactivity

In the process of working this through, we discovered a number of other
problems that we believe require Atom extensions to solve, so we've also
got drafts of a number of peripheral specifications.

As Sam Ruby posted earlier in the month[1], one issue encountered was
the lack of a standard way to publish media items such as photos and
videos in Atom. While a couple of publishers (notably Google properties)
use the elements from MediaRSS for this purpose, the few implementations
I found were inconsistent. It was suggested that a more Atom-shaped
media specification might be useful, so we drafted up this:
     http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/atommedia

We also have a small specification for describing the "service provider"
that hosts a feed (for example, YouTube or Twitter). This is intended to
be similar in design to atom:author.
     http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/provider

Finally, we have a small extension to Atom Threading Extensions to allow
some metadata about the parent entry to be included in the child so that
consumers can avoid fetching source feeds in certain cases. This is
intended to be similar in principle to atom:source
     http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/commentmeta

I'm well aware that these drafts need plenty more editorial work, and
may need more detail in certain spots, but since some folks are ready to
start implementing based on these drafts I wanted to throw them out here
to get a few more eyes on them, so that if there are any major problems
with the technical direction we're taking we might fix them before there
are too many implementations to change.

I would appreciate it if folks here would cast a critical eye over what
we're proposing and let me know if you see fundamental flaws in our
approach to any of these problems.

We will of course continue to refine these documents and hopefully we
would be able to bring some or all of them over here and work on them
with the wider Atom community.

Thanks,
Martin

-----------------------------------------

[1]http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg20818.html




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Subject: Re: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams
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Dare Obasanjo wrote:
> Quick question, who are the members of this "small group" and what is the process for getting changes/updates to the spec?
> 

The small group is working in a Google Group:
     http://groups.google.com/group/activity-streams

As far as the process for changes, just let me know what you think needs 
changing either here or in that group; I'm be happy to receive feedback.



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Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:40:58 -0800
From: Tim Bray <Tim.Bray@Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: Is atom:content *the* place to put content?
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On Jan 6, 2009, at 3:01 PM, Richard Salz wrote:

> I don't like usurping the "human-readable" intent of atom:content.

I don't think the spec, either explicitly or implicitly, says that  
atom:content ought necessarily to be human-readable.  It does give  
specific guidance on what to do when it's not (provide some guidance  
in atom:summary).  I suspect that mainstream consumer feed-readers are  
smart enough to simply bypass atom:content if it's in a format they  
don't understand.  So my instinct would be to use atom:content -Tim



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Subject: Re: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams
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James Holderness wrote:
> 
> Martin Atkins: 
>> I'm also not sure if this sort of thing matters. For what it's worth, 
>> I did also consider using atom:name, the child of atom:author for this 
>> purpose, since we're really talking about the name of the provider 
>> rather than its title.
> 
> If I had to choose, I'd say atom:name was more appropriate. Your usage 
> seems pretty close to the RFC4287 definition.
> 
>> However, I could rewrite it to use custom elements if folks think 
>> extending the reach of these Atom elements is wrong.

This is from the atomactivity-00 spec:

[[[
<entry>
    <id>tag:photopanic.example.com,2008:activity01</id>
    <title>Geraldine posted a Photo on PhotoPanic</title>
    <published>2008-11-02T15:29:00Z</published>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html"
          href="/geraldine/activities/1" />
    <activity:verb>
       http://activitystrea.ms/schema/1.0/post
    </activity:verb>
    <activity:object>
       <id>tag:photopanic.example.com,2008:photo01</id>
       <title>My Cat</title>
       <published>2008-11-02T15:29:00Z</published>
       <link rel="alternate" type="text/html"
             href="/geraldine/photos/1" />
       <activity:object-type>
           tag:atomactivity.example.com,2008:photo
       </activity:object-type>
       <source>
           <title>Geraldine's Photos</title>
           <link rel="self" type="application/atom+xml"
                 href="/geraldine/photofeed.xml" />
           <link rel="alternate" type="text/html"
                 href="/geraldine/" />
       </source>
    </activity:object>
    <content type="html">
        &lt;p&gt;Geraldine posted a Photo on PhotoPanic&lt;/p&gt;
        &lt;img src="/geraldine/photo1.jpg"&gt;
    </content>
</entry>
]]]

I see the following duplication:

1: atom:id, activity:id
2: atom:title, activity:title
3: atom:published, activity:published
4: atom:link@rel=alternate, activity:link@rel=alternate
5: atom:souce, activity:source

1,2,4,5 I think are duplicates, 3 depends on what activity:published 
means.  But on reading through the spec, I see that "5.5. The 
activity:object Extension Element" is saying to use atom:* elements. So 
I think the example XML is buggy, and here's my attempt at a fix by 
throwing in xmlns and xml:base declarations:

[[[
<entry
     xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
     xmlns:activity="http://activitystrea.ms/spec/1.0/"
     xml:base="http://example.org/activities" >
    <id>tag:photopanic.example.com,2008:activity01</id>
    <title>Geraldine posted a Photo on PhotoPanic</title>
    <published>2008-11-02T15:29:00Z</published>
    <link rel="alternate"
     type="text/html"
     href="/geraldine/activities/1" />
    <activity:verb>
     http://activitystrea.ms/schema/1.0/post
    </activity:verb>
    <activity:object>
       <activity:object-type>
           tag:atomactivity.example.com,2008:photo
       </activity:object-type>
       <id>tag:photopanic.example.com,2008:photo01</atom:id>
       <title>My Cat</atom:title>
       <published>2008-11-02T15:29:00Z</atom:published>
       <link rel="alternate"
         type="text/html"
         href="/geraldine/photos/1" />
       <source>
           <title>Geraldine's Photos</title>
           <link rel="self"
             type="application/atom+xml"
             href="/geraldine/photofeed.xml" />
           <link rel="alternate"
             type="text/html"
             href="/geraldine/" />
       </source>
    </activity:object>
    <content type="html">
        &lt;p&gt;Geraldine posted a Photo on PhotoPanic&lt;/p&gt;
        &lt;img src="/geraldine/photo1.jpg"&gt;
    </content>
</entry>
]]]

It's clear to me this needs refactoring. As a strawman let me suggest:


[[[
<entry xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
     xmlns:activity="http://activitystrea.ms/spec/1.0/"
     xml:base="http://example.org/activities" >
    <id>tag:photopanic.example.com,2008:activity01</id>
    <title>Geraldine posted a Photo on PhotoPanic</title>
    <updated>2008-11-02T15:29:00Z</updated>
    <link rel="alternate"
     type="text/html"
     href="/geraldine/activities/1" />
    <link rel="alternate"
       type="text/html"
         href="/geraldine/photos/1" />
     <content type="html">
        &lt;p&gt;Geraldine posted a Photo on PhotoPanic&lt;/p&gt;
        &lt;img src="/geraldine/photo1.jpg"&gt;
    </content>
    <activity:when>2008-11-02T15:29:00Z<activity:when>
    <activity:type>
      tag:atomactivity.example.com,2008:photo
    </activity:type>
    <activity:verb>
      http://activitystrea.ms/schema/1.0/post
    </activity:verb>
</entry>
]]]


  - I don't think you need an activity-object if you use atom:entry, but 
I suspect it would be the top level element in a dedicated format)

  - I think you need activity:when to keep event times distinct from 
publishing/update times, so I added it.

  - I suspect activity:type could be a machine tag and therefor using 
atom:category with a scheme could be an option. This would allow a 
useful extension point.

  - If this was an IETF standards track, I would suggest an IANA 
registry for activity:verbs.


I think the of an activity entry format outside any one silo has legs 
and is a good idea, but I expect some objections and a need for hard 
graft to get it done. In no way do I think this is slam dunk as Sam 
suggests in his weblog [1]. Some reasons why:

  - How this aligns with the OpenSocial activity format needs to be 
squared up (and technically as well as you can get more bang for the 
byte with that format)
 
http://code.google.com/intl/fr/apis/opensocial/docs/0.7/reference/opensocial.Activity.html

- There is repetition of data - practically speaking there are a lot 
more activity events than blog posts, I'd guess easily one order of 
magnitude, probably two. Having a uniform means of serving them will 
result in more events, maybe getting us to three orders. I imagine we'll 
see claims the web will collapse under the weight.

- Having duplicate places to put data will easily confuse publishers, as 
will clients be confused by data acquisition from parent elements. This 
is just how things are with XML modelling.

- As a simple specification example, MUST requirements for foreign 
markup extensions as this draft needs are a problem (this is why AtomPub 
cannot mandate the "app:edited" element).


What I would do next:

  1 write down the anatomy of a well formed activity entry[2], and get 
buyin on that.

  2 re-examine commonality of its elements with Atom

  3 make a decision to re-use Atom format elements or embed an activity 
inside it. An example of the former approach is GData, an example of the 
latter is OpenSocial.

The latter is very important and is about technical and social tradeoffs 
- ime reusing Atom as a base in this way tends to make more sense as you 
have more and more formats and they start to look less and less like 
precious snowflakes and more like snow. By analogy, microformats all 
base off XHTML, but RDFa chooses to embed within XHTML [3].

Bill


[1] 
http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/01/08/Atom-Media-Extensions-for-Activity-Streams

[2] imvho: involves describing where, what, when, who, why

[3] as a datapoint, the Atom WG did not reuse Dublin Core's elements, we 
chose to mint our own, mainly because they could not be redefined 
outside the spec (Atom's stability around versioning requires this).



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Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote:
> * Richard Salz <rsalz@us.ibm.com> [2009-01-07 00:15]:
>> I don't like usurping the "human-readable" intent of atom:content.
> 
> Atom makes no constraint that the content be human-readable. That
> was in fact one of the goals differentiating it from RSS: the
> ability to carry content other than plaintext or HTML.
> 
> If you want the feed to also be human-consumable, provide a
> reasonable facsimile of the context in text or HTML form in the
> summary.

What Aristotle said. Formally speaking, atom:content isn't a Text 
construct and so doesn't imply its human readable intent.

Bill



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From: Bill de hOra <bill@dehora.net>
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Subject: Re: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams
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Bill de hOra wrote:

> I think the example XML is buggy, and here's my attempt at a fix by 
> throwing in xmlns and xml:base declarations:
> 
> [[[
> <entry
>     xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
> </entry>
> ]]]
 >
> [...]
> [[[
> <entry xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
[...]
> ]]]

Argh. Both should be xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"

Bill



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Bill de hOra wrote:
> 
> This is from the atomactivity-00 spec:
> 
> [[[
> <entry>
>    <id>tag:photopanic.example.com,2008:activity01</id>
>    <title>Geraldine posted a Photo on PhotoPanic</title>
>    <published>2008-11-02T15:29:00Z</published>
>    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html"
>          href="/geraldine/activities/1" />
>    <activity:verb>
>       http://activitystrea.ms/schema/1.0/post
>    </activity:verb>
>    <activity:object>
>       <id>tag:photopanic.example.com,2008:photo01</id>
>       <title>My Cat</title>
>       <published>2008-11-02T15:29:00Z</published>
>       <link rel="alternate" type="text/html"
>             href="/geraldine/photos/1" />
>       <activity:object-type>
>           tag:atomactivity.example.com,2008:photo
>       </activity:object-type>
>       <source>
>           <title>Geraldine's Photos</title>
>           <link rel="self" type="application/atom+xml"
>                 href="/geraldine/photofeed.xml" />
>           <link rel="alternate" type="text/html"
>                 href="/geraldine/" />
>       </source>
>    </activity:object>
>    <content type="html">
>        &lt;p&gt;Geraldine posted a Photo on PhotoPanic&lt;/p&gt;
>        &lt;img src="/geraldine/photo1.jpg"&gt;
>    </content>
> </entry>
> ]]]
> 
> I see the following duplication:
> 
> 1: atom:id, activity:id
> 2: atom:title, activity:title
> 3: atom:published, activity:published
> 4: atom:link@rel=alternate, activity:link@rel=alternate
> 5: atom:souce, activity:source
> 
> 1,2,4,5 I think are duplicates, 3 depends on what activity:published 
> means.  But on reading through the spec, I see that "5.5. The 
> activity:object Extension Element" is saying to use atom:* elements. So 
> I think the example XML is buggy, and here's my attempt at a fix by 
> throwing in xmlns and xml:base declarations:

Note that the top-level entry here represents the activity or action, 
while the content of activity:object (which is also an Atom Entry in all 
but name) represents the object of the activity.

Therefore these are in fact not duplicates. The entry-level atom:title 
is a human-readable description of the activity ("Geraldine posted ...") 
while the activity:object atom:title is the title of what Geraldine 
posted, which in this case is a photo with the title "My Cat".

> 
> It's clear to me this needs refactoring. As a strawman let me suggest:
> 
> 
> [[[
> <entry xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
>     xmlns:activity="http://activitystrea.ms/spec/1.0/"
>     xml:base="http://example.org/activities" >
>    <id>tag:photopanic.example.com,2008:activity01</id>
>    <title>Geraldine posted a Photo on PhotoPanic</title>
>    <updated>2008-11-02T15:29:00Z</updated>
>    <link rel="alternate"
>     type="text/html"
>     href="/geraldine/activities/1" />
>    <link rel="alternate"
>       type="text/html"
>         href="/geraldine/photos/1" />
>     <content type="html">
>        &lt;p&gt;Geraldine posted a Photo on PhotoPanic&lt;/p&gt;
>        &lt;img src="/geraldine/photo1.jpg"&gt;
>    </content>
>    <activity:when>2008-11-02T15:29:00Z<activity:when>
>    <activity:type>
>      tag:atomactivity.example.com,2008:photo
>    </activity:type>
>    <activity:verb>
>      http://activitystrea.ms/schema/1.0/post
>    </activity:verb>
> </entry>
> ]]]
> 

This is very similar to the "implied activity" shorthand syntax 
described later in the spec, which is in fact what we expect most 
publishers to generate. The full-blown activity entries are intended to 
be posted by publishers such as FriendFeed and Plaxo whose entries 
represent actions rather than simply lists of objects.

You are correct that in this case there is ambiguity for a few elements:

* If the verb is something other than "post", atom:published becomes the 
activity time rather than the published time. The definition of the 
"post" verb means that for that verb the activity time and the 
publication time are always the same, since it was not published until 
it was posted.

* atom:author becomes the activity actor rather than the author of the 
object. Again, in the "post" case these are the same, but for other 
verbs they are not necessarily the same. Unfortunately existing practice 
constrains the solution here; for example, YouTube's "favorite" feeds 
have atom:author set to the user that owns the feed, not the user who 
authored the video. Therefore the spec currently says that the author 
belongs to the activity, not to the object.

I think I've addressed many of your points above, so I'll just respond 
to those I haven't yet:

> 
>  - I suspect activity:type could be a machine tag and therefor using 
> atom:category with a scheme could be an option. This would allow a 
> useful extension point.
> 

I did actually already get feedback in favor of machine tags, but they 
made me wary for two reasons:
  * They are not yet widely known or adopted, as far as I can tell.
  * (and this point relates to the use of atom:category in general) many 
existing aggregators display to the user all categories regardless of 
scheme, and a design goal of this specification is for the new 
annotations to cause no visible difference in legacy software, so that 
there will be less resistance to adoption.

>  - If this was an IETF standards track, I would suggest an IANA registry 
> for activity:verbs.
> 

Do you intend the IANA registry to replace the use of URIs as the 
extension mechanism with simple keywords?

This is certainly something that could be considered.

> 
> I think the of an activity entry format outside any one silo has legs 
> and is a good idea, but I expect some objections and a need for hard 
> graft to get it done. In no way do I think this is slam dunk as Sam 
> suggests in his weblog [1]. Some reasons why:
> 
>  - How this aligns with the OpenSocial activity format needs to be 
> squared up (and technically as well as you can get more bang for the 
> byte with that format)
> 
> http://code.google.com/intl/fr/apis/opensocial/docs/0.7/reference/opensocial.Activity.html 
> 

In discussions with OpenSocial folks we got the impression that they 
would consider using an Atom-based format for activities. I used their 
schema as one of my research sources for this specification.

Right now the main "inspiration" for this spec are the syndication-based 
activity aggregators such as FriendFeed, Plaxo, Movable Type Action 
Streams, etc, but I agree that it is important to align with OpenSocial too.

> 
> - There is repetition of data - practically speaking there are a lot 
> more activity events than blog posts, I'd guess easily one order of 
> magnitude, probably two. Having a uniform means of serving them will 
> result in more events, maybe getting us to three orders. I imagine we'll 
> see claims the web will collapse under the weight.

The "implied activity" shorthand is intended to address this. In the 
weblog case, one needs only to add a single element to each entry to 
mark it up as a weblog entry:
     <object-type xmlns="http://activitystrea.ms/spec/1.0/">
         http://activitystrea.ms/schema/1.0/blog-entry/
     </object-type>

though of course in practice many activity consumers are likely to 
present an un-annotated entry much like a weblog entry because that's 
what they do today.

The work for things such as photos and videos is slightly more since 
some providers would need to add thumbnail links and so forth, but it 
was a very strong requirement that existing feeds would require only 
minimal changes -- and, in most cases, only additions -- to hit the 
important use-cases for this spec.

> - Having duplicate places to put data will easily confuse publishers, as 
> will clients be confused by data acquisition from parent elements. This 
> is just how things are with XML modelling.

The most important feedback I've taken from this is that the spec should 
be re-organised to emphasise the implied activity shorthand rather than 
starting with the full "activity entry" case, since I expect only 
activity aggregator services to publish the latter, and indeed the 
motivation for this separation is that these publishers already have 
feeds that represent activities rather than objects.

Thanks for the very detailed feedback. Six Apart is hosting a meet-up 
regarding activity streams publishing this afternoon[1] where we can 
take a look at the feedback we've recieved.

Cheers,
Martin

[1] http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/1470821/
(Folks are welcome to come, though I realise this is late notice for 
those who are only just finding out about it now.)




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From: Dare Obasanjo <dareo@microsoft.com>
To: Martin Atkins <mart@degeneration.co.uk>, Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 12:58:55 -0800
Subject: RE: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams
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Thanks for opening up the archives for that group. I'll take a detailed loo=
k at the spec this weekend and send some feedback.=20

--
THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #139
If I'm sitting in my camp, hear a twig snap, start to investigate, then enc=
ounter a small woodland creature, I will send out some scouts anyway just t=
o be on the safe side. (If they disappear into the foliage, I will not send=
 out another patrol; I will break out the napalm.)

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org=
] On Behalf Of Martin Atkins
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 10:24 AM
To: Atom Syntax
Subject: Re: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams


Dare Obasanjo wrote:
> Quick question, who are the members of this "small group" and what is the=
 process for getting changes/updates to the spec?
>

The small group is working in a Google Group:
     http://groups.google.com/group/activity-streams

As far as the process for changes, just let me know what you think needs
changing either here or in that group; I'm be happy to receive feedback.




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Subject: Re: Is atom:content *the* place to put content?
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 23:13:31 -0000
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Tim Bray wrote:
> I suspect that mainstream consumer feed-readers are  smart enough to 
> simply bypass atom:content if it's in a format they  don't understand.

I guess it depends on your definition of mainstream. Google Reader? 
Bloglines? My Yahoo? As Martin said, there are still many feed-readers that 
don't deal very well with content that isn't HTML.

And it's not the sort of bug that's a high priority to fix since, by 
definition, it only applies to feeds whose content you can't view anyway. 
Not many users are going to be that excited about being able to subscribe to 
a summary of your content.

Bottom line: if you have content that can be rendered as HTML, and you want 
real people to subscribe to your feed, you'd be unwise to use anything other 
than HTML in the content element.

Regards
James




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From: Bill de hOra <bill@dehora.net>
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Subject: Re: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams
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Martin Atkins wrote:
> 
> Bill de hOra wrote:
>> 1,2,4,5 I think are duplicates, 3 depends on what activity:published 
>> means.  But on reading through the spec, I see that "5.5. The 
>> activity:object Extension Element" is saying to use atom:* elements. 
>> So I think the example XML is buggy, and here's my attempt at a fix by 
>> throwing in xmlns and xml:base declarations:
> 
> Note that the top-level entry here represents the activity or action, 
> while the content of activity:object (which is also an Atom Entry in all 
> but name) represents the object of the activity.
> 
> Therefore these are in fact not duplicates. The entry-level atom:title 
> is a human-readable description of the activity ("Geraldine posted ...") 
> while the activity:object atom:title is the title of what Geraldine 
> posted, which in this case is a photo with the title "My Cat".

  - with that many elements there will be boilerplate data injected into 
one or the other. James has already mentioned this, and it is an age old 
problem with markup, one that predates XML and HTML. Given what I know 
about event formats in general and SN specific data like activities 
which I have to aggregate, I think you have too many tags, which leads 
me to...

  - ...volume. My rule of thumb is that each interesting thing that 
happens in a web system causes about 10 events and you should plan to 
scale accordingly. I believe social network activity to be like this. My 
guess is that verbosity of the proposal (which I don't normally care 
about) will be an adoption factor.

And even if you are right about non-duplication, then there are still 
two arguments to be had,

  - rename all the activity elements so people are not confused about 
the purpose of the elements (I don't necessarily agree with this 
approach, but it's real)

  - either remove atom:source from activity:object or type qualify 
atom:source as being the source of the action and lift it up. I have a 
doubt you need both elements, unless there is a use case where an 
intermediary like friendfeed needs atom:source for something else.


> You are correct that in this case there is ambiguity for a few elements:
> 
> * If the verb is something other than "post", atom:published becomes the 
> activity time rather than the published time. The definition of the 
> "post" verb means that for that verb the activity time and the 
> publication time are always the same, since it was not published until 
> it was posted.
>
> * atom:author becomes the activity actor rather than the author of the 
> object. Again, in the "post" case these are the same, but for other 
> verbs they are not necessarily the same. Unfortunately existing practice 
> constrains the solution here; for example, YouTube's "favorite" feeds 
> have atom:author set to the user that owns the feed, not the user who 
> authored the video. Therefore the spec currently says that the author 
> belongs to the activity, not to the object.

In markup-land, these are called co-occurence constraints. I would try 
to avoid them if possible :)


>>  - I suspect activity:type could be a machine tag and therefor using 
>> atom:category with a scheme could be an option. This would allow a 
>> useful extension point.
>>
> 
> I did actually already get feedback in favor of machine tags, but they 
> made me wary for two reasons:
>  * They are not yet widely known or adopted, as far as I can tell.
>  * (and this point relates to the use of atom:category in general) many 
> existing aggregators display to the user all categories regardless of 
> scheme, and a design goal of this specification is for the new 
> annotations to cause no visible difference in legacy software, so that 
> there will be less resistance to adoption.

Makes sense to me.


>>  - If this was an IETF standards track, I would suggest an IANA 
>> registry for activity:verbs.
>>
> 
> Do you intend the IANA registry to replace the use of URIs as the 
> extension mechanism with simple keywords?

No, just to act as social control as per the link registry. If these 
will be acting as switch-on-type controls in code rather than data to be 
rendered out, then I can't imagine verb proliferation being  beneficial 
(what will happen is that the problem Dave Winer has identified with 
photo media and which Dare Obsanjo has explained will get pushed around 
rather than solved - activity:verb reminds me of soap:action in that 
sense).

> Right now the main "inspiration" for this spec are the syndication-based 
> activity aggregators such as FriendFeed, Plaxo, Movable Type Action 
> Streams, etc, but I agree that it is important to align with OpenSocial 
> too.

I work on aggregation for mobile systems, and while its not a format 
issue, I suspect the amount of data being served to describe the 
activity is high enough to impact services that are not flat-rated. Do 
the spec backers want to send that much data down to a handset?


>> - There is repetition of data - practically speaking there are a lot 
>> more activity events than blog posts, I'd guess easily one order of 
>> magnitude, probably two. Having a uniform means of serving them will 
>> result in more events, maybe getting us to three orders. I imagine 
>> we'll see claims the web will collapse under the weight.
> 
> The "implied activity" shorthand is intended to address this. In the 
> weblog case, one needs only to add a single element to each entry to 
> mark it up as a weblog entry:
>     <object-type xmlns="http://activitystrea.ms/spec/1.0/">
>         http://activitystrea.ms/schema/1.0/blog-entry/
>     </object-type>
> 
> though of course in practice many activity consumers are likely to 
> present an un-annotated entry much like a weblog entry because that's 
> what they do today.

Right, and this approach is closer to how MediaRSS acts wrt to RSS/Atom, 
which leaves the door open for broadly consistent profiling of feed data 
down the line.


> The work for things such as photos and videos is slightly more since 
> some providers would need to add thumbnail links and so forth, but it 
> was a very strong requirement that existing feeds would require only 
> minimal changes -- and, in most cases, only additions -- to hit the 
> important use-cases for this spec.

I think this is more an abbreviated syntax than an implied activity and 
I'd strongly suggest you pick just one and spec it  - keeping client and 
server dev work to a minimum ups the chance of adoption. [Having an 
abbreviated syntax without question damaged RDF/XML].



>> - Having duplicate places to put data will easily confuse publishers, 
>> as will clients be confused by data acquisition from parent elements. 
>> This is just how things are with XML modelling.
> 
> The most important feedback I've taken from this is that the spec should 
> be re-organised to emphasise the implied activity shorthand rather than 
> starting with the full "activity entry" case, since I expect only 
> activity aggregator services to publish the latter, and indeed the 
> motivation for this separation is that these publishers already have 
> feeds that represent activities rather than objects.

That and the fact that everyone who uses this spec will have to think 
about where to put the data instead of being able to guess right. Reduce 
that burden!


> Thanks for the very detailed feedback. Six Apart is hosting a meet-up 
> regarding activity streams publishing this afternoon[1] where we can 
> take a look at the feedback we've recieved.

Good luck with it.

Bill



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From: Dare Obasanjo <dareo@microsoft.com>
To: Martin Atkins <mart@degeneration.co.uk>, Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 23:42:10 -0800
Subject: RE: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams
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Comments on each doc

1.)     http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/atommedia
 - This spec describes a bunch of elements but not how they are supposed to=
 be used. I'm especially confused about atom:link with rel=3D"preview". Wha=
t is it a preview of? The example in the spec has a single preview (pic) an=
d two enclosures (also pictures). How is that expected to be treated? I'd e=
xpect there to be a 1:1 mapping between enclosures and previews but there d=
oesn't seem to be any such rule in the spec.

2.) http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/atomactivity
 - Verbs seem to be poorly defined and unnecessary. It seems they are eithe=
r a way to categorize items in a feed (i.e. use atom:category) or a way to =
point to an end point where an action can be taken (i.e. use rel=3D"verbnam=
e" the same way AtomPub has rel=3D"edit".
 - The list of base object types is missing update types that are common on=
 social networking sites such as relationships ('Dare is a friend of Rob', =
'Dare is a fan of Metallica'), profile changes ('Dare is now married', 'Dar=
e has updated his occupation to cubicle dweller') and even reviews ('Dare r=
ates the Zombies application ** out of *****)

3.) http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/atomactivity
- As I mentioned above, I can't see why an extension element is needed for =
activity:verb instead of atom:category or link@rel=3D"post|markfavorite"
- activity:object just seems super weird. It is effectively an atom:entry e=
mbedded inside the atom:entry. This seems like a significant amount of dupl=
ication of data and a recipe for lots of confusion by feed consumers and pr=
oducers. Almost every element that is a child of the activity:object seems =
redundant to the same elements that are children of the parent atom:entry. =
There needs to be more explanation of this design so it can be properly und=
erstood. I can imagine some simple scenarios where the activity:object may =
seem to help but it breaks down really quickly
- activity:object-type should either be an attribute/element of activity:ob=
ject or even better a machine readable atom:category.


These are just quick impressions based on my experiences in this space. I'l=
l try to go over the specs in more detail later.

--
THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #139
If I'm sitting in my camp, hear a twig snap, start to investigate, then enc=
ounter a small woodland creature, I will send out some scouts anyway just t=
o be on the safe side. (If they disappear into the foliage, I will not send=
 out another patrol; I will break out the napalm.)


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org=
] On Behalf Of Martin Atkins
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 4:38 PM
To: Atom Syntax
Subject: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams



Hi folks,

A small group of which I'm a member has been working on a specification
for describing activities as Atom entries. An "activity" for our
purposes is an action a user has taken on a social website, such as
posting a photo or marking it as a favorite.

The draft we have so far is here:
     http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/atomactivity

In the process of working this through, we discovered a number of other
problems that we believe require Atom extensions to solve, so we've also
got drafts of a number of peripheral specifications.

As Sam Ruby posted earlier in the month[1], one issue encountered was
the lack of a standard way to publish media items such as photos and
videos in Atom. While a couple of publishers (notably Google properties)
use the elements from MediaRSS for this purpose, the few implementations
I found were inconsistent. It was suggested that a more Atom-shaped
media specification might be useful, so we drafted up this:
     http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/atommedia

We also have a small specification for describing the "service provider"
that hosts a feed (for example, YouTube or Twitter). This is intended to
be similar in design to atom:author.
     http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/provider

Finally, we have a small extension to Atom Threading Extensions to allow
some metadata about the parent entry to be included in the child so that
consumers can avoid fetching source feeds in certain cases. This is
intended to be similar in principle to atom:source
     http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/commentmeta

I'm well aware that these drafts need plenty more editorial work, and
may need more detail in certain spots, but since some folks are ready to
start implementing based on these drafts I wanted to throw them out here
to get a few more eyes on them, so that if there are any major problems
with the technical direction we're taking we might fix them before there
are too many implementations to change.

I would appreciate it if folks here would cast a critical eye over what
we're proposing and let me know if you see fundamental flaws in our
approach to any of these problems.

We will of course continue to refine these documents and hopefully we
would be able to bring some or all of them over here and work on them
with the wider Atom community.

Thanks,
Martin

-----------------------------------------

[1]http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg20818.html




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From joseph_duenas@amat.com  Sat Jan 10 06:10:58 2009
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From n-tominaga@ahschreiber.com  Sat Jan 10 07:40:20 2009
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From lori.mcneill@amo.com  Sat Jan 10 07:47:53 2009
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From mlc@almaden.ibm.com  Sun Jan 11 05:31:48 2009
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(In the interests of addressing the interested audiences, what I'm doing 
here is addressing Dare's comments about activity streams over on the 
activity streams mailing list, and the media extensions over here.)

My feedback to Dare about the activity stuff can be viewed here:
http://groups.google.com/group/activity-streams/msg/27d35bbb13281640

Dare Obasanjo wrote:
> 
> 1.)     http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/atommedia
>  - This spec describes a bunch of elements but not how they are
> supposed to be used.  I'm especially confused about atom:link with
 > rel="preview". What is it a preview of? The example in the spec
 > has a single preview (pic) and two enclosures (also pictures).
 > How is that expected to be treated? I'd expect there to be a
> 1:1 mapping between enclosures and previews but there doesn't
 > seem to be any such rule in the spec.
> 

The text of the spec here is:

     The "preview" link relation indicates that the link is to a
     reduced-fidelity and/or reduced-content representation of the media
     object that is intended to allow the user to sample the content
     before retrieving a full representation.

 From your mention of multiple enclosures I think the confusion arises 
because AtomMedia specifically addresses only the use-case where an 
entry represents one specific media object -- that is, one photo, or one 
video, etc -- so all enclosures and all previews are of that same object.

Specifically, if there are multiple enclosures they are expected to be 
different representations of the same content.

So "the media object", as referred to in the description of 
rel="preview", means the single photo, video or other media object that 
this entry represents.

The spec then goes on to give some concrete examples:

     For example, if the media object is an image a thumbnail of the
     photograph can be linked using this relationship.

     If the media object is a video, the preview could be a thumbnail
     image of a representative frame from the video, or a clip showing a
     short segment of the full video.

Would clarifying the fact that a particular entry represents only one 
media object address your concern, or are the above quoted passages 
themselves unclear?


Thanks for the feedback.
-Martin



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The work on using Atom to encode activity streams has raised what seems 
to be a more general issue with Atom that I thought I'd bring up over 
here to see what insight this group can bring.

In the "normal" case of a feed of entries a user has published, 
"published" quiet sensibly represents both the time the entry was 
published and the time it appeared in the feed, by definition.

However, when the feed is of something else, these two times are no 
longer necessarily the same.

Consider for example the feed that YouTube publishes of a user's 
"Favorite Videos". In this feed, the entry-level atom:published tells us 
when the entry was added as a favorite, *not* when the entry (i.e. the 
video) was posted to YouTube by its author.

However, Digg's equivalent "Favorite Articles" feed (which is actually 
RSS 2.0, but let's pretend it's Atom for the sake of this discussion) 
has the published time set to the time the article was originally 
submitted to Digg, *not* when it was added as a favorite.

My question, then, is which of these approaches is correct. The Atom 
specification is (intentionally?) very vague about what this time 
represents, but it does refer to "the entry". It's open to 
interpretation whether "the entry" means "the actual atom:entry element 
in this feed" or "the item that this atom:entry element describes".

Do you think it would be vaulable to have an optional extra element that 
indicates when the entry appeared in the current feed/collection? (This 
would effectively make YouTube wrong and Digg right.)



(I'm told that Digg couldn't actually implement this element even if it 
was specified, because they don't retain a timestamp on their "favorite" 
relationships, but at least it would reduce the ambiguity about what 
atom:published represents.)



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To: "Martin Atkins" <mart@degeneration.co.uk>
Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and "time this entry was added to this feed"
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On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 8:50 PM, Martin Atkins <mart@degeneration.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> The work on using Atom to encode activity streams has raised what seems to
> be a more general issue with Atom that I thought I'd bring up over here to
> see what insight this group can bring.
>
> In the "normal" case of a feed of entries a user has published, "published"
> quiet sensibly represents both the time the entry was published and the time
> it appeared in the feed, by definition.
>
> However, when the feed is of something else, these two times are no longer
> necessarily the same.
>
> Consider for example the feed that YouTube publishes of a user's "Favorite
> Videos". In this feed, the entry-level atom:published tells us when the
> entry was added as a favorite, *not* when the entry (i.e. the video) was
> posted to YouTube by its author.
>
> However, Digg's equivalent "Favorite Articles" feed (which is actually RSS
> 2.0, but let's pretend it's Atom for the sake of this discussion) has the
> published time set to the time the article was originally submitted to Digg,
> *not* when it was added as a favorite.

I might be thinking too much as a library geek, but it seems to me
that the YouTube approach is more correct.  The activity stream work
is raising good questions and I'd say you need a clear idea of the
abstract model of an activity and its consituent entities and actors.
This sort of thing can get pretty hairy (Google "FRBR" or CIDOC-CRM"
for real fun) if there is not a pretty good shared understanding of
what's what.  Unless I am mistaken, an activity stream is making
assertions about activities and to mix in metadata about the
underlying things (like when a video was originally posted) seems off.
 Of course, a linked-to Atom entry representing that media item
(specifically it's YouTube instance) probably would have the that
information.

FWIW, I am hoping this Activities stream will (like Atom itself) have
all kinds of applicability outside the social networking context in
which it is being created, so I hope the modeling is very solid.  To
me, a set of activity streams seems to offer lots more opportunity for
semantic mining than "linked data in RDF" since the human actors are
so much more visible.  (Which is why I find the act of making it a
favorite more pertinent than when it was posted, which I can find by
other means).

>
> My question, then, is which of these approaches is correct. The Atom
> specification is (intentionally?) very vague about what this time
> represents, but it does refer to "the entry". It's open to interpretation
> whether "the entry" means "the actual atom:entry element in this feed" or
> "the item that this atom:entry element describes".
>
> Do you think it would be vaulable to have an optional extra element that
> indicates when the entry appeared in the current feed/collection? (This
> would effectively make YouTube wrong and Digg right.)
>
> (I'm told that Digg couldn't actually implement this element even if it was
> specified, because they don't retain a timestamp on their "favorite"
> relationships, but at least it would reduce the ambiguity about what

That's a significant omission on Digg's part, I think.

--peter keane

> atom:published represents.)
>
>



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Bill de hOra wrote:
> 
> Martin Atkins wrote:
>>
>> Bill de hOra wrote:
>>> 1,2,4,5 I think are duplicates, 3 depends on what activity:published 
>>> means.  But on reading through the spec, I see that "5.5. The 
>>> activity:object Extension Element" is saying to use atom:* elements. 
>>> So I think the example XML is buggy, and here's my attempt at a fix 
>>> by throwing in xmlns and xml:base declarations:
>>
>> Note that the top-level entry here represents the activity or action, 
>> while the content of activity:object (which is also an Atom Entry in 
>> all but name) represents the object of the activity.
>>
>> Therefore these are in fact not duplicates. The entry-level atom:title 
>> is a human-readable description of the activity ("Geraldine posted 
>> ...") while the activity:object atom:title is the title of what 
>> Geraldine posted, which in this case is a photo with the title "My Cat".
> 
>  - with that many elements there will be boilerplate data injected into 
> one or the other. James has already mentioned this, and it is an age old 
> problem with markup, one that predates XML and HTML. Given what I know 
> about event formats in general and SN specific data like activities 
> which I have to aggregate, I think you have too many tags, which leads 
> me to...
> 
>  - ...volume. My rule of thumb is that each interesting thing that 
> happens in a web system causes about 10 events and you should plan to 
> scale accordingly. I believe social network activity to be like this. My 
> guess is that verbosity of the proposal (which I don't normally care 
> about) will be an adoption factor.

Activity aggregator services already use the entry-level title to encode 
  a human-readable activity description, and they do this for the 
benefit of non-activity-aware consumers, so the actual title of the 
object must be in a distinct element.

My intent with activity:object was to be able to re-use the Atom 
elements which are already understood rather than inventing new 
elements. I consider this to be similar in design to atom:source, which 
re-uses the existing Feed-level elements.

> And even if you are right about non-duplication, then there are still 
> two arguments to be had,
> 
>  - rename all the activity elements so people are not confused about the 
> purpose of the elements (I don't necessarily agree with this approach, 
> but it's real)
> 

So you believe that re-using the Atom elements inside activity:object is 
confusing? If this is the case, then my design has indeed failed, since 
my intention was exactly the opposite... that activity:object/atom:title 
would be understood to mean "the title of the object" based on people's 
existing understanding of what atom:title means.

>  - either remove atom:source from activity:object or type qualify 
> atom:source as being the source of the action and lift it up. I have a 
> doubt you need both elements, unless there is a use case where an 
> intermediary like friendfeed needs atom:source for something else.
> 

atom:source inside activity:object tells us where the aggregator (i.e. 
FriendFeed) found the object.

atom:source as a sibling of activity:object comes into play when the 
source feed already contains activity entries; FriendFeed is not 
synthesizing implied activities in this case.

The most readily-available example of such an instance is when I feed 
the output of Plaxo (another activity aggregator) into FriendFeed. In 
that case, there ought to be an atom:source sibling to activity:object 
that refers to the Plaxo feed, while the atom:source inside 
activity:object would be the source as far as *Plaxo* is concerned.

Without this distinction, the following activity published on Plaxo:
    "Martin posted a photo on Flickr"
would become the following when read into FriendFeed:
    "Martin posted a photo on Plaxo"
or worse,
    "Martin posted 'Martin posted a photo on Flickr' on Plaxo'"

Do you believe that this level of indirection is counter-intuitive?

> 
>> You are correct that in this case there is ambiguity for a few elements:
>>
>> * If the verb is something other than "post", atom:published becomes 
>> the activity time rather than the published time. The definition of 
>> the "post" verb means that for that verb the activity time and the 
>> publication time are always the same, since it was not published until 
>> it was posted.
>>
>> * atom:author becomes the activity actor rather than the author of the 
>> object. Again, in the "post" case these are the same, but for other 
>> verbs they are not necessarily the same. Unfortunately existing 
>> practice constrains the solution here; for example, YouTube's 
>> "favorite" feeds have atom:author set to the user that owns the feed, 
>> not the user who authored the video. Therefore the spec currently says 
>> that the author belongs to the activity, not to the object.
> 
> In markup-land, these are called co-occurence constraints. I would try 
> to avoid them if possible :)
> 

As I'm sure you will have seen, I've started a separate thread about 
this, since I believe the problem is more general than AtomActivity.

> 
>>>  - If this was an IETF standards track, I would suggest an IANA 
>>> registry for activity:verbs.
>>>
>>
>> Do you intend the IANA registry to replace the use of URIs as the 
>> extension mechanism with simple keywords?
> 
> No, just to act as social control as per the link registry. If these 
> will be acting as switch-on-type controls in code rather than data to be 
> rendered out, then I can't imagine verb proliferation being  beneficial 
> (what will happen is that the problem Dave Winer has identified with 
> photo media and which Dare Obsanjo has explained will get pushed around 
> rather than solved - activity:verb reminds me of soap:action in that 
> sense).
> 

Okay, I understand. As currently defined, the ActivitySchema spec is 
effectively the registry and I suppose you need to go through me to get 
new verbs under http://activitystrea.ms/ added; once the spec is final, 
it would make sense to have a mechanism like an IANA registry to allow 
other specifications to extend the core set.

>> Right now the main "inspiration" for this spec are the 
>> syndication-based activity aggregators such as FriendFeed, Plaxo, 
>> Movable Type Action Streams, etc, but I agree that it is important to 
>> align with OpenSocial too.
> 
> I work on aggregation for mobile systems, and while its not a format 
> issue, I suspect the amount of data being served to describe the 
> activity is high enough to impact services that are not flat-rated. Do 
> the spec backers want to send that much data down to a handset?
> 

This is of course a concern; adding more data will always disadvantage 
those consumers that are not making use of that data.

If there is an activity-aware aggregator running on a mobile device it 
will presumably be interested in this extra data, but a generic 
aggregator will of course ignore it having already spent the data 
transfer on it.

As far as I can tell, the best way that the industry has found to deal 
with this problem thus far is to serve different content to constrained 
devices than to traditional computers, whether done by providing two 
parallel resources (m.sitename.com vs. www.sitename.com) or by using 
heuristics to determine whether a user-agent is resource-constrained and 
automatically delivering the constrained version.

On the other hand, it could be argued that AtomActivity would enable a 
mobile-based activity aggregator to use a single feed on FriendFeed in 
place of fetching a number of site feeds individually and mimicking the 
functionality of FriendFeed client-side, which would presumably be more 
efficient overall.

> 
>> The work for things such as photos and videos is slightly more since 
>> some providers would need to add thumbnail links and so forth, but it 
>> was a very strong requirement that existing feeds would require only 
>> minimal changes -- and, in most cases, only additions -- to hit the 
>> important use-cases for this spec.
> 
> I think this is more an abbreviated syntax than an implied activity and 
> I'd strongly suggest you pick just one and spec it  - keeping client and 
> server dev work to a minimum ups the chance of adoption. [Having an 
> abbreviated syntax without question damaged RDF/XML].
> 

The two kinds of entry already exist in the wild, so I'm wary of 
excluding it from the spec. FriendFeed would be unable to use the 
implied activity shorthand without changing the content of their feeds 
as percieved by non-activity aggregators, and the reverse is true for 
sites such as YouTube and Flickr that currently publish what I refer to 
as "object entries".

> 
> 
>>> - Having duplicate places to put data will easily confuse publishers, 
>>> as will clients be confused by data acquisition from parent elements. 
>>> This is just how things are with XML modelling.
>>
>> The most important feedback I've taken from this is that the spec 
>> should be re-organised to emphasise the implied activity shorthand 
>> rather than starting with the full "activity entry" case, since I 
>> expect only activity aggregator services to publish the latter, and 
>> indeed the motivation for this separation is that these publishers 
>> already have feeds that represent activities rather than objects.
> 
> That and the fact that everyone who uses this spec will have to think 
> about where to put the data instead of being able to guess right. Reduce 
> that burden!
> 

It is my current belief that legacy software (both on the publisher and 
consumer side) requires at least some duplication in the "activity 
entry" case, but I will definitely take your feedback on board and see 
if it can be made clearer and less redundant.

Thanks,
Martin



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From: Dare Obasanjo <dareo@microsoft.com>
To: Martin Atkins <mart@degeneration.co.uk>, Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:34:43 -0800
Subject: RE: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams
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> Would clarifying the fact that a particular entry represents only one med=
ia object address your concern, or are the above quoted passages themselves=
 unclear?

Making that constraint explicit up front would address the concern.=20

--
THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #139
If I'm sitting in my camp, hear a twig snap, start to investigate, then enc=
ounter a small woodland creature, I will send out some scouts anyway just t=
o be on the safe side. (If they disappear into the foliage, I will not send=
 out another patrol; I will break out the napalm.)


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org=
] On Behalf Of Martin Atkins
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 12:56 PM
To: Atom Syntax
Subject: Re: Some Draft Atom-related Specs for Activity Streams



(In the interests of addressing the interested audiences, what I'm doing
here is addressing Dare's comments about activity streams over on the
activity streams mailing list, and the media extensions over here.)

My feedback to Dare about the activity stuff can be viewed here:
http://groups.google.com/group/activity-streams/msg/27d35bbb13281640

Dare Obasanjo wrote:
>
> 1.)     http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/atommedia
>  - This spec describes a bunch of elements but not how they are
> supposed to be used.  I'm especially confused about atom:link with
 > rel=3D"preview". What is it a preview of? The example in the spec
 > has a single preview (pic) and two enclosures (also pictures).
 > How is that expected to be treated? I'd expect there to be a
> 1:1 mapping between enclosures and previews but there doesn't
 > seem to be any such rule in the spec.
>

The text of the spec here is:

     The "preview" link relation indicates that the link is to a
     reduced-fidelity and/or reduced-content representation of the media
     object that is intended to allow the user to sample the content
     before retrieving a full representation.

 From your mention of multiple enclosures I think the confusion arises
because AtomMedia specifically addresses only the use-case where an
entry represents one specific media object -- that is, one photo, or one
video, etc -- so all enclosures and all previews are of that same object.

Specifically, if there are multiple enclosures they are expected to be
different representations of the same content.

So "the media object", as referred to in the description of
rel=3D"preview", means the single photo, video or other media object that
this entry represents.

The spec then goes on to give some concrete examples:

     For example, if the media object is an image a thumbnail of the
     photograph can be linked using this relationship.

     If the media object is a video, the preview could be a thumbnail
     image of a representative frame from the video, or a clip showing a
     short segment of the full video.

Would clarifying the fact that a particular entry represents only one
media object address your concern, or are the above quoted passages
themselves unclear?


Thanks for the feedback.
-Martin




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From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Mon Jan 12 14:50:01 2009
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Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and "time this entry was added to this feed"
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Martin Atkins wrote:
> Consider for example the feed that YouTube publishes of a user's "Favorite 
> Videos". In this feed, the entry-level atom:published tells us when the 
> entry was added as a favorite, *not* when the entry (i.e. the video) was 
> posted to YouTube by its author.

Without answering you directly, I'd like to comment on YouTube's feeds, 
because I think what I have to say is relevant to the way you might go about 
creating feeds for activity streams.

Imagine I know someone that has a knack for finding good videos on YouTube, 
so I subscribe to their favourites feed to keep up with all the cool stuff 
they've discovered. I also subscribe to the YouTube "Recently Featured" 
feed, for similar reasons. And finally I subscribe to a couple of individual 
feeds for users who are friends.

Now imagine one day that one of my friends produces a really good video. 
It's spotted by the person whose favourites I subscribe to, as well as being 
a featured feed. That means the entry is going to show up in three of my 
feeds. Identical content, linking to an identical page, repeated three 
times. How many times do you think I want to view that entry?

You might be thinking, that's exactly what the atom:id element is for - my 
feed reader should be able to detect that all three entries are the same 
since they should have the same id value. Only they don't have the same 
value. Each one has a different id, so I get to see the exact same entry 
repeated three times. Saying that this is annoying would be a huge 
understatement.

Where this is relevant to your question, is that if you change the published 
date from the original entry (as YouTube is doing - at least for their 
favourites feeds), you basically have to change the entry id, since you're 
now no longer dealing with the same entry. And that, as I've said, would be 
incredibly annoying.

If you think that's a worthwhile compromise for your needs, that's your 
choice to make. I'll just weep quietly in the corner.

Regards
James



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From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Mon Jan 12 15:15:20 2009
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James Holderness wrote:
[snip]
> 
> You might be thinking, that's exactly what the atom:id element is for - 
> my feed reader should be able to detect that all three entries are the 
> same since they should have the same id value. Only they don't have the 
> same value. Each one has a different id, so I get to see the exact same 
> entry repeated three times. Saying that this is annoying would be a huge 
> understatement.
> 

I hadn't noticed this -- that the id varies between feeds -- but that's 
definitely interesting. My assumption until this point was that 
different feeds describing the same resource would have the same id.

> Where this is relevant to your question, is that if you change the 
> published date from the original entry (as YouTube is doing - at least 
> for their favourites feeds), you basically have to change the entry id, 
> since you're now no longer dealing with the same entry. And that, as 
> I've said, would be incredibly annoying.
> 

This raises a more fundamental question of what atom:id is the id for,

In my mental model, I've always thought of atom:id as being the id for 
the thing that the entry represents, not that concrete atom:entry XML 
element. Therefore I'd expect different atom:entry elements that exist 
in different feeds but that represent the same "thing" would have the 
same id.

My understanding of section 4.2.6 seems to agree:

    When an Atom Document is relocated, migrated, syndicated,
    republished, exported, or imported, the content of its atom:id
    element MUST NOT change.  Put another way, an atom:id element
    pertains to all instantiations of a particular Atom entry or feed;
    revisions retain the same content in their atom:id elements.  It is
    suggested that the atom:id element be stored along with the
    associated resource.

I would consider an entry appearing in the three feeds you described to 
be either "republished" or "syndicated" (I'm not really sure how these 
are different) and so you'd expect the id to remain the same across all 
of them.

Changing the id in order that the publication date can be re-used as a 
"date this was added to this collection" seems like a shaky workaround 
at best.



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From: Dare Obasanjo <dareo@microsoft.com>
To: Martin Atkins <mart@degeneration.co.uk>
CC: Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:43:48 -0800
Subject: RE: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and
 "time this entry was added to this feed"
Thread-Topic: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and
 "time this entry was added to this feed"
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This is getting metaphysical but do they represent the same thing? If Alice=
, Bob, Dick and Jane share a link to a favorite video should it be treated =
as identical with the same atom:id? What if they each put their own caption=
 on the video? What if there are comments from their friends on each instan=
ce they have shared? These aren't hypothetical questions, I'm describing Fa=
cebook's implementation of sharing videos with friends.

--
THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #139
If I'm sitting in my camp, hear a twig snap, start to investigate, then enc=
ounter a small woodland creature, I will send out some scouts anyway just t=
o be on the safe side. (If they disappear into the foliage, I will not send=
 out another patrol; I will break out the napalm.)


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org=
] On Behalf Of Martin Atkins
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 3:08 PM
Cc: Atom Syntax
Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and "t=
ime this entry was added to this feed"


James Holderness wrote:
[snip]
>
> You might be thinking, that's exactly what the atom:id element is for -
> my feed reader should be able to detect that all three entries are the
> same since they should have the same id value. Only they don't have the
> same value. Each one has a different id, so I get to see the exact same
> entry repeated three times. Saying that this is annoying would be a huge
> understatement.
>

I hadn't noticed this -- that the id varies between feeds -- but that's
definitely interesting. My assumption until this point was that
different feeds describing the same resource would have the same id.

> Where this is relevant to your question, is that if you change the
> published date from the original entry (as YouTube is doing - at least
> for their favourites feeds), you basically have to change the entry id,
> since you're now no longer dealing with the same entry. And that, as
> I've said, would be incredibly annoying.
>

This raises a more fundamental question of what atom:id is the id for,

In my mental model, I've always thought of atom:id as being the id for
the thing that the entry represents, not that concrete atom:entry XML
element. Therefore I'd expect different atom:entry elements that exist
in different feeds but that represent the same "thing" would have the
same id.

My understanding of section 4.2.6 seems to agree:

    When an Atom Document is relocated, migrated, syndicated,
    republished, exported, or imported, the content of its atom:id
    element MUST NOT change.  Put another way, an atom:id element
    pertains to all instantiations of a particular Atom entry or feed;
    revisions retain the same content in their atom:id elements.  It is
    suggested that the atom:id element be stored along with the
    associated resource.

I would consider an entry appearing in the three feeds you described to
be either "republished" or "syndicated" (I'm not really sure how these
are different) and so you'd expect the id to remain the same across all
of them.

Changing the id in order that the publication date can be re-used as a
"date this was added to this collection" seems like a shaky workaround
at best.




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Dare Obasanjo wrote:
> This is getting metaphysical but do they represent the same thing?
 > If Alice, Bob, Dick and Jane share a link to a favorite video
 > should it be treated as identical with the same atom:id? What
> if they each put their own caption on the video? What if there
 > are comments from their friends on each instance they have
 > shared? These aren't hypothetical questions, I'm describing
 > Facebook's implementation of sharing videos with friends.
> 

While I'd concede that this is not a general solution, in Activity 
Streams land we currently have an object type that is called "bookmark" 
that is a reference to something else.

In this case, the thing it's "about" to goes into <link rel="related">, 
which is not ideal but seems to align with current practice.

The <link rel="alternate"> goes to a page representing the bookmark, if 
any, or it's just omitted completely if there is no such page.

The following URL is an example of something that might be an an 
appropriate <link rel="alternate"> for a "bookmark" object.
     http://ma.gnolia.com/people/Mart/bookmarks/cribonush

I suppose the general case is that when the user adds additional 
metadata their entry becomes a pointer to the original item rather than 
the item itself, so the id (and everything else, for that matter) is 
different in this case.



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References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <BAY141-DAV29E6D513D974066CD4449BED80@phx.gbl> <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk>
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Martin Atkins wrote:
> I suppose the general case is that when the user adds additional 
> metadata their entry becomes a pointer to the original item rather than 
> the item itself, so the id (and everything else, for that matter) is 
> different in this case.

That makes sense to me.

As for the un-annotated case where essentially the same entry is showing 
up in multiple feeds, perhaps a reasonable approach to making it easy to 
recognize them as the same entry would be to give them all the same 
atom:id, and give them all an identical atom:source pointing to The One 
Feed To Rule Them All from YouTube, which perhaps would never really 
exist -- sort of a "dark matter" feed that just binds the other feeds 
together.



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* Martin Atkins <mart@degeneration.co.uk> [2009-01-13 03:00]:
> I suppose the general case is that when the user adds
> additional metadata their entry becomes a pointer to the
> original item rather than the item itself, so the id (and
> everything else, for that matter) is different in this case.

Exactly. And the mere act of bookmarking generates additional
metadata – specifically the time at which the item was
bookmarked.

Plus, if I follow the favourites of a user, and they star
something that was uploaded 3 years ago, I don’t want my feed
reader to show the item at the very bottom of my unread items
list. What matters to me is when the friend/user bookmarked it.


* James Holderness <j4_james@hotmail.com> [2009-01-12 23:50]:
> How many times do you think I want to view that entry?

Depends. If I’ve seen the entry on the feeds of one of the people
I subscribe to directly, then I probably don’t care about its
instance in the general popular items feed. But I usually care to
be made aware of the fact that the people I subscribe to have
bookmarked it; so if I saw it on the popular items feed or the
feed of the friend who uploaded it, I would still want to see
that the stuff-spotting user I follow has also bookmarked it. If
the popular stuff feed has relevant annotations that the other
feeds have not, I might even still care to see that one too. In
general I care about all the content/annotations added uniquely
by each of the feed publishers.

I imagine you don’t care as much, though. Different people want
different things.

It would be nice if we had a link relation that makes a stronger
assertion than `related` does, about the linked resource being
the subject that the entry describes, with each being distinct
resources. That would let feed readers handle cases like this
tripple-publishing more intelligently, f.ex. summarise them all
in a single display unit.

Regards,
-- 
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>



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* Aristotle Pagaltzis <pagaltzis@gmx.de> [2009-01-13 14:20]:
> It would be nice if we had a link relation that makes a
> stronger assertion than `related` does, about the linked
> resource being the subject that the entry describes, with each
> being distinct resources. That would let feed readers handle
> cases like this tripple-publishing more intelligently, f.ex.
> summarise them all in a single display unit.

Hey, actually, we do: RFC 4685.

Regards,
-- 
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>



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Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote:
> * Aristotle Pagaltzis <pagaltzis@gmx.de> [2009-01-13 14:20]:
>> It would be nice if we had a link relation that makes a
>> stronger assertion than `related` does, about the linked
>> resource being the subject that the entry describes, with each
>> being distinct resources. That would let feed readers handle
>> cases like this tripple-publishing more intelligently, f.ex.
>> summarise them all in a single display unit.
> 
> Hey, actually, we do: RFC 4685.
> 

What are you referring to in RFC4685? (Atom Threading Extensions)

The "replies" link relation? I'm not sure that it means what we need for 
this use-case.




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* Martin Atkins <mart@degeneration.co.uk> [2009-01-13 19:05]:
> What are you referring to in RFC4685? (Atom Threading
> Extensions)
>
> The "replies" link relation? I'm not sure that it means what we
> need for  this use-case.

No, the `in-reply-to` element. It doesn’t sound like the link
relation was I thinking of at first glance but the definitions
are congruent. Even my proposal for how it could be usefully
displayed is essentially that of a thread. It’s kind of
embarrassing that I didn’t notice immediately.

(Nearly no one supports 4685, of course. But then neither do they
support the hypothetical link relation.)

Regards,
-- 
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>



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Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote:
> * Martin Atkins <mart@degeneration.co.uk> [2009-01-13 19:05]:
>> What are you referring to in RFC4685? (Atom Threading
>> Extensions)
>>
>> The "replies" link relation? I'm not sure that it means what we
>> need for  this use-case.
> 
> No, the `in-reply-to` element. It doesn’t sound like the link
> relation was I thinking of at first glance but the definitions
> are congruent. Even my proposal for how it could be usefully
> displayed is essentially that of a thread. It’s kind of
> embarrassing that I didn’t notice immediately.
> 
> (Nearly no one supports 4685, of course. But then neither do they
> support the hypothetical link relation.)
> 

It seems strange to use in-reply-to to represent a pointer to something. 
To me, in-reply-to seems a specialized kind of pointer, not a general 
pointer.

However, I'm willing to be convinced if you can explain your reasoning! :)




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Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and"time this entry was added to this feed"
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:57:51 -0000
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Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote:
> Plus, if I follow the favourites of a user, and they star
> something that was uploaded 3 years ago, I don’t want my feed
> reader to show the item at the very bottom of my unread items
> list. What matters to me is when the friend/user bookmarked it.

That's a valid point, but it's only really a problem if your feed reader 
sorts by some form of date rather than something like time of arrival. I've 
never thought that was a good idea, for a number of reasons, but I accept 
that I may be in the minority in that regard.

>> How many times do you think I want to view that entry?
>
> Depends. If I’ve seen the entry on the feeds of one of the people
> I subscribe to directly, then I probably don’t care about its
> instance in the general popular items feed. But I usually care to
> be made aware of the fact that the people I subscribe to have
> bookmarked it

The thing is, if the entries were all correctly identified with the same 
atom:id, your feed reader can do all sorts of useful things. It could 
display an annotation on the entry saying something like "also received in 
feeds X, Y and Z". Or if you read feeds individually rather than in a merged 
view, it might show the message in all three feeds, but automatically mark 
all three versions as read the minute you read any one of them. Or let the 
user choose whether to eliminate duplicates or not.

If the entries are not correctly identified, though, you've got zero 
options.

> If
> the popular stuff feed has relevant annotations that the other
> feeds have not, I might even still care to see that one too. In
> general I care about all the content/annotations added uniquely
> by each of the feed publishers.

Annotations are another issue altogether. If you're commenting on someone's 
video, that's an entry in it's own right that should be pointing back to the 
item you're annotating. But you don't take the entire content of the entry, 
throw a "cool video!" comment on the end of it, and then claim authorship of 
that content.

> It would be nice if we had a link relation that makes a stronger
> assertion than `related` does, about the linked resource being
> the subject that the entry describes, with each being distinct
> resources. That would let feed readers handle cases like this
> tripple-publishing more intelligently, f.ex. summarise them all
> in a single display unit.

As you mention later, the in-reply-to link would be appropriate for this 
sort of thing, but IMO only if the entry is the annotation itself, and not 
the original content. Definitely not a byte-for-byte copy of the original 
entry with a new date and author (what YouTube is doing). That's plagiarism. 
The fact that both feeds are generated by the same server doesn't make it 
any less wrong.

Regards
James



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James Holderness wrote:
> 
> Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote:
>> Plus, if I follow the favourites of a user, and they star
>> something that was uploaded 3 years ago, I don’t want my feed
>> reader to show the item at the very bottom of my unread items
>> list. What matters to me is when the friend/user bookmarked it.
> 
> That's a valid point, but it's only really a problem if your feed reader 
> sorts by some form of date rather than something like time of arrival. 
> I've never thought that was a good idea, for a number of reasons, but I 
> accept that I may be in the minority in that regard.
> 

If I'm understanding you correctly, then in the common case of a polling 
aggregator the order is skewed unless polling is done very often.

Sorting by published time allows items from multiple feeds to be 
intermingled into a single list in the correct order.




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Antone Roundy wrote:
> 
> Martin Atkins wrote:
>> I suppose the general case is that when the user adds additional 
>> metadata their entry becomes a pointer to the original item rather 
>> than the item itself, so the id (and everything else, for that matter) 
>> is different in this case.
> 
> That makes sense to me.

Me too.

The atom:source element isn't designed to capture that idea, so we're 
looking at something along the lines of thr:in-reply-to or a new rel 
attribute.

Bill



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Martin Atkins wrote:
> 
> 
> The work on using Atom to encode activity streams has raised what seems 
> to be a more general issue with Atom that I thought I'd bring up over 
> here to see what insight this group can bring.
> 
> In the "normal" case of a feed of entries a user has published, 
> "published" quiet sensibly represents both the time the entry was 
> published and the time it appeared in the feed, by definition.

We can't (and don't) specify it as the time it appears into a feed. It's 
the time the author published it, not the time it showed up in the feed 
(or downstream).


> However, when the feed is of something else, these two times are no 
> longer necessarily the same.

That's true of all feeds. CDNs, caches, and aggregators break that idea 
it's the time it shows.

> Consider for example the feed that YouTube publishes of a user's 
> "Favorite Videos". In this feed, the entry-level atom:published tells us 
> when the entry was added as a favorite, *not* when the entry (i.e. the 
> video) was posted to YouTube by its author.

That's down to how Youtube models a "favorite".

If they create a new Entry for the favorite (you can tell by the IDs) it 
makes sense relative to their domain. Although that will be annoying for 
people following other people's favourites if people are tagging the 
same vid. If not, it's a data bug.


> However, Digg's equivalent "Favorite Articles" feed (which is actually 
> RSS 2.0, but let's pretend it's Atom for the sake of this discussion) 
> has the published time set to the time the article was originally 
> submitted to Digg, *not* when it was added as a favorite.

That's down to how Digg models a "favorite".

Again this depends on the site's internal domain model. In their case, 
it looks like they don't exposed favorites as distinct entities.


> My question, then, is which of these approaches is correct. 

They both are.


> The Atom 
> specification is (intentionally?) very vague about what this time 
> represents, but it does refer to "the entry". It's open to 
> interpretation whether "the entry" means "the actual atom:entry element 
> in this feed" or "the item that this atom:entry element describes".

It's to do (imo) with whether a favorite is an identifiable object, as 
pointed out above. That is, it's about what the resource identifies as 
indicated in this case by atom:id, not the representation of the 
resource as indicated by the atom:feed's XML.


> Do you think it would be vaulable to have an optional extra element that 
> indicates when the entry appeared in the current feed/collection? (This 
> would effectively make YouTube wrong and Digg right.)

It would be more helpful (again imo),

for Youtube: if when a favourite is modeled as an Entry in its own 
right, atom:link or other metadata was used to reference what was 
favourited (Atom's thread extension is good food for thought on that).

for Digg: if the favourite is modelled as an echo of the what was 
favourited, they used atom:source.


> (I'm told that Digg couldn't actually implement this element even if it 
> was specified, because they don't retain a timestamp on their "favorite" 
> relationships, but at least it would reduce the ambiguity about what 
> atom:published represents.)

That's what I mean by this being specific to internal domain models. 
There's no correct way to represent a favourite atm.

Bill




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References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <BAY141-DAV29E6D513D974066CD4449BED80@phx.gbl> <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <BAY141-DAV29E6D513D974066CD4449BED80@phx.gbl> <20090113130659.GA25813@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <20090113154245.GD26861@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <496CD5AB.3070908@degeneration.co.uk> <20090113181704.GA29273@klangraum.plasmasturm.org>
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Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote:
> * Martin Atkins <mart@degeneration.co.uk> [2009-01-13 19:05]:
>> What are you referring to in RFC4685? (Atom Threading
>> Extensions)
>>
>> The "replies" link relation? I'm not sure that it means what we
>> need for  this use-case.
> 
> No, the `in-reply-to` element. It doesn’t sound like the link
> relation was I thinking of at first glance but the definitions
> are congruent. Even my proposal for how it could be usefully
> displayed is essentially that of a thread. It’s kind of
> embarrassing that I didn’t notice immediately.
> 
> (Nearly no one supports 4685, of course. But then neither do they
> support the hypothetical link relation.)

I've used threading for both comments and capturing private messaging. I 
agree it can work here, but a qualifier similar to rel would be better 
to cover off Martin's bookmark use case.

Bill



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References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <BAY141-DAV29E6D513D974066CD4449BED80@phx.gbl> <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> <496C127C.7030909@geckotribe.com> <496D1DB5.4000606@dehora.net>
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As the author of 4685 I'm a bit biased but I'm not sure I see the need 
for the new rel attribute. in-reply-to would seem to cover the need well 
enough.

- James

Bill de hOra wrote:
>
> Antone Roundy wrote:
>>
>> Martin Atkins wrote:
>>> I suppose the general case is that when the user adds additional 
>>> metadata their entry becomes a pointer to the original item rather 
>>> than the item itself, so the id (and everything else, for that 
>>> matter) is different in this case.
>>
>> That makes sense to me.
>
> Me too.
>
> The atom:source element isn't designed to capture that idea, so we're 
> looking at something along the lines of thr:in-reply-to or a new rel 
> attribute.
>
> Bill
>
>



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On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 5:05 PM, Bill de hOra <bill@dehora.net> wrote:
>
> Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote:
>>
>> * Martin Atkins <mart@degeneration.co.uk> [2009-01-13 19:05]:
>>>
>>> What are you referring to in RFC4685? (Atom Threading
>>> Extensions)
>>>
>>> The "replies" link relation? I'm not sure that it means what we
>>> need for  this use-case.
>>
>> No, the `in-reply-to` element. It doesn't sound like the link
>> relation was I thinking of at first glance but the definitions
>> are congruent. Even my proposal for how it could be usefully
>> displayed is essentially that of a thread. It's kind of
>> embarrassing that I didn't notice immediately.
>>
>> (Nearly no one supports 4685, of course. But then neither do they
>> support the hypothetical link relation.)
>
> I've used threading for both comments and capturing private messaging. I
> agree it can work here, but a qualifier similar to rel would be better to
> cover off Martin's bookmark use case.

It's the same issue that's come up again and again about expressing
hierarchy in Atom.  Proposed rel values include "detail"/"master",
"up"/"down", "parent"/"child", or using the threading extension (the
closest thing we have right now for hierarchy).  None of those fit
just exactly right for this use case, and I think a new rel value
(esp. for pointing from child to parent a la 'in-reply-to') would be
extremely useful.  I'd hope it could be somewhat generic, though (and
paired with a parent-to-children rel a la "replies" as well) so that
it might serve these other uses.  As Aristotle suggested, it simply
needs to be more specific/strong  than "related."

--peter keane


>
> Bill
>
>



From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Tue Jan 13 20:11:04 2009
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References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <BAY141-DAV29E6D513D974066CD4449BED80@phx.gbl> <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> <496C127C.7030909@geckotribe.com> <496D1DB5.4000606@dehora.net> <496D5705.6050609@gmail.com>
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James M Snell wrote:
> 
> As the author of 4685 I'm a bit biased but I'm not sure I see the need 
> for the new rel attribute. in-reply-to would seem to cover the need well 
> enough.
> 

So, just to complete the thought, the proposal is to use in-reply-to to 
represent a bookmark? In other words, we'd be modelling a bookmark as a 
response to an entry.

Presumably this would look something like this:

   <entry>
     <author>
       <name>Mart</name>
     </author>
     <id>tag:ma.gnolia.com,2005:Ma.gnolia-slokowuyird</id>
     <published>2009-01-11T22:02:04-08:00</published>
     <updated>2009-01-11T22:02:04-08:00</updated>
     <thr:in-reply-to
         href="http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-guidelines.html"
         type="text/html"
     />


     <link
         href="http://ma.gnolia.com/people/Mart/bookmarks/slokowuyird"
         rel="alternate"
         type="text/html"
     />
     <title>
         I-D Guidelines: Guidelines to Authors of Internet-Drafts
     </title>
     <content type="html">[elided]</content>
     <category term="ietf" scheme="http://ma.gnolia.com/tags"/>
     <category term="web standards" scheme="http://ma.gnolia.com/tags"/>
   </entry>

How is a consumer intended to determine that the above is a "bookmark" 
(i.e. annotated pointer) rather than a reply in the traditional sense?



From owler@accountancysolutions.ie  Wed Jan 14 00:48:37 2009
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Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and"time this entry was added to this feed"
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Martin Atkins wrote:
> If I'm understanding you correctly, then in the common case of a polling 
> aggregator the order is skewed unless polling is done very often.
>
> Sorting by published time allows items from multiple feeds to be 
> intermingled into a single list in the correct order.

Feed readers typically poll every hour. If I receive 20 new posts in that 
hour, I couldn't care less what exact order I read them in - I just want to 
know that those are the most recent 20 posts.

I know that for some people, some kind of date order (what you refer to as 
the "correct" order) is important. So if article A has a publish date, or 
update date, or whatever that is 10 minutes before article B, then it's 
vitally important that message A gets read before message B, or is it 
message B before message A? I just don't get why it's so important.

I bet if you asked, most users couldn't even tell you if they were ordering 
by published date or updated date. They just know that how they're doing it 
is correct; and vitally important. Right up until the time that it's 
inconvenient to have things sorted that way; and then it's the date that is 
wrong, not the ordering.

The thing is, if you know that the actual ordering doesn't matter, and it's 
more a matter of perception than anything else, it's not that difficult to 
come up with an algorithm that gives the perception of sorting by date 
without actually doing so.

Regards
James



From keke.mohammadian@aisystems.net.au  Thu Jan 15 02:38:46 2009
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From: Dare Obasanjo <dareo@microsoft.com>
To: James Holderness <j4_james@hotmail.com>, Atom Syntax <atom-syntax@imc.org>
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 06:22:54 -0800
Subject: RE: The distinction between "time this entry was published"
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Thread-Topic: The distinction between "time this entry was published"
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Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and"time
 this entry was added to this feed"
References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <BAY141-DAV29E6D513D974066CD4449BED80@phx.gbl> <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <BAY141-DAV29E6D513D974066CD4449BED80@phx.gbl> <20090113130659.GA25813@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <BAY141-DAV73B6F6A074AB66A63F368BED90@phx.gbl> <496D02CD.8010700@degeneration.co.uk> <BAY141-DAV4E263E7349952AEB2A4EFBED70@phx.gbl> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD17A97@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
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Dare Obasanjo wrote:
> I'm confused. What about desktop feed readers that aren't running so can't poll every hour? How would they show sensible results after the user fires them up for the first time that week or month.
>
> Anyway, this discussion seems moot because most feed reading apps today sort by published date today so it seems weird to be discussing breaking behavior expected by hundreds of deployed apps.
>
>   
... especially given that they're not likely to change no matter what is 
discussed here...

- James

> --
> THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #139
> If I'm sitting in my camp, hear a twig snap, start to investigate, then encounter a small woodland creature, I will send out some scouts anyway just to be on the safe side. (If they disappear into the foliage, I will not send out another patrol; I will break out the napalm.)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of James Holderness
> Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 2:27 AM
> To: Atom Syntax
> Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and"time this entry was added to this feed"
>
>
> Martin Atkins wrote:
>   
>> If I'm understanding you correctly, then in the common case of a polling
>> aggregator the order is skewed unless polling is done very often.
>>
>> Sorting by published time allows items from multiple feeds to be
>> intermingled into a single list in the correct order.
>>     
>
> Feed readers typically poll every hour. If I receive 20 new posts in that
> hour, I couldn't care less what exact order I read them in - I just want to
> know that those are the most recent 20 posts.
>
> I know that for some people, some kind of date order (what you refer to as
> the "correct" order) is important. So if article A has a publish date, or
> update date, or whatever that is 10 minutes before article B, then it's
> vitally important that message A gets read before message B, or is it
> message B before message A? I just don't get why it's so important.
>
> I bet if you asked, most users couldn't even tell you if they were ordering
> by published date or updated date. They just know that how they're doing it
> is correct; and vitally important. Right up until the time that it's
> inconvenient to have things sorted that way; and then it's the date that is
> wrong, not the ordering.
>
> The thing is, if you know that the actual ordering doesn't matter, and it's
> more a matter of perception than anything else, it's not that difficult to
> come up with an algorithm that gives the perception of sorting by date
> without actually doing so.
>
> Regards
> James
>
>
>   



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From: "James Holderness" <j4_james@hotmail.com>
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References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <BAY141-DAV29E6D513D974066CD4449BED80@phx.gbl> <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <BAY141-DAV29E6D513D974066CD4449BED80@phx.gbl> <20090113130659.GA25813@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <BAY141-DAV73B6F6A074AB66A63F368BED90@phx.gbl> <496D02CD.8010700@degeneration.co.uk> <BAY141-DAV4E263E7349952AEB2A4EFBED70@phx.gbl> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD17A97@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and"time this entry was added to this feed"
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:12:49 -0000
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Dare Obasanjo wrote:
> I'm confused. What about desktop feed readers that aren't running so can't 
> poll every hour? How would they show sensible results after the user fires 
> them up for the first time that week or month.

That depends what you mean by sensible. It's certainly possible to 
approximate an ordering by published date without strictly enforcing that 
order across all entries.

> Anyway, this discussion seems moot because most feed reading apps today 
> sort by published date today so it seems weird to be discussing breaking 
> behavior expected by hundreds of deployed apps.

I wasn't suggesting that applications should change the way they do things. 
I'm merely curious why so many people seem to think that ordering by 
published date is the one and only "correct" way to sort feed entries.

Also, I'm curious what makes you think that most feed reading apps today do 
sort by published date. Based on past research, I was of the opinion that it 
was more like 25-30%. I'm assuming you have more recent research that has 
reached a different conclusion?

Regards
James



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From: "James Holderness" <j4_james@hotmail.com>
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References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <BAY141-DAV29E6D513D974066CD4449BED80@phx.gbl> <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <BAY141-DAV29E6D513D974066CD4449BED80@phx.gbl> <20090113130659.GA25813@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <BAY141-DAV73B6F6A074AB66A63F368BED90@phx.gbl> <496D02CD.8010700@degeneration.co.uk> <BAY141-DAV4E263E7349952AEB2A4EFBED70@phx.gbl> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD17A97@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and"time this entry was added to this feed"
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Dare Obasanjo wrote:
> I'm confused. What about desktop feed readers that aren't running so can't 
> poll every hour? How would they show sensible results after the user fires 
> them up for the first time that week or month.

That depends what you mean by sensible. It's certainly possible to 
approximate an ordering by published date without strictly enforcing that 
order across all entries.

> Anyway, this discussion seems moot because most feed reading apps today 
> sort by published date today so it seems weird to be discussing breaking 
> behavior expected by hundreds of deployed apps.

I wasn't suggesting that applications should change the way they do things. 
I'm merely curious why so many people seem to think that ordering by 
published date is the one and only "correct" way to sort feed entries.

Also, I'm curious what makes you think that most feed reading apps today do 
sort by published date. Based on past research, I was of the opinion that it 
was more like 25-30%. I'm assuming you have more recent research that has 
reached a different conclusion?

Regards
James




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From a.c.m.asseldonk@rn.rabobank.nl  Fri Jan 16 01:39:45 2009
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Subject: Cartier watch for a New Year Gift!
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 04:39:22 -0500
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Dear Yolanda,

How about buying yourself a two Omega watches the same day? It's not impossible, mostly when you can get them for a couple hundred bucks
http://davisyph.narod.ru



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References: <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk>
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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:58:58 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" 
     and"time this entry was added to this feed"
From: "Sylvain Hellegouarch" <sh@defuze.org>
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>
>
> Dare Obasanjo wrote:
>> I'm confused. What about desktop feed readers that aren't running so
>> can't
>> poll every hour? How would they show sensible results after the user
>> fires
>> them up for the first time that week or month.
>
> That depends what you mean by sensible. It's certainly possible to
> approximate an ordering by published date without strictly enforcing that
> order across all entries.
>
>> Anyway, this discussion seems moot because most feed reading apps today
>> sort by published date today so it seems weird to be discussing breaking
>> behavior expected by hundreds of deployed apps.
>
> I wasn't suggesting that applications should change the way they do
> things.
> I'm merely curious why so many people seem to think that ordering by
> published date is the one and only "correct" way to sort feed entries.
>

I wonder the same.

I think being aware one can sort a feed based on various parameters is
quite important. I don't think RFC 4287 specifies it has to be ordered in
a certain way, RFC 5023 IIRC specifies that collection partial list ought
to be ordered by app:edited element but that's it.

One point that I believe is quite important to remember is that Atom,
though mainly used in a blog-type contexts, is much more generic than that
and we should remember it may well be used in all sorts of other contexts
where human are not involved or not by using a common feed reader.

- Sylvain

-- 
Sylvain Hellegouarch
http://www.defuze.org



From jls@ace.ocn.ne.jp  Fri Jan 16 04:50:19 2009
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            <td style="padding-top: 15px;">January 16, 2009 |
                <font color="#336699">"SPECIAL OFFERS"-Pfizer  Company!</font><br>
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From jfxbafwpr@agora.pl  Fri Jan 16 18:23:42 2009
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From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Fri Jan 16 19:15:29 2009
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References: <496BCD55.1030409@degeneration.co.uk>	 <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>	 <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk>	 <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk>	 <BAY141-DAV29E6D513D974066CD4449BED80@phx.gbl>	 <20090113130659.GA25813@klangraum.plasmasturm.org>	 <20090113154245.GD26861@klangraum.plasmasturm.org>	 <496CD5AB.3070908@degeneration.co.uk>	 <20090113181704.GA29273@klangraum.plasmasturm.org>	 <496D1E3B.10403@dehora.net> <8158ad750901131919i4d58d8b3pa958c034b40b3786@mail.gmail.com>
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Peter Keane wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 5:05 PM, Bill de hOra <bill@dehora.net> wrote:
>> I've used threading for both comments and capturing private messaging. I
>> agree it can work here, but a qualifier similar to rel would be better to
>> cover off Martin's bookmark use case.
> 
> It's the same issue that's come up again and again about expressing
> hierarchy in Atom.  

I don't know if hierarchy matters here (really). I am fairly sure the 
message I send to you looks different in my outbox to the one you see in 
your inbox. Are they the same/different messages? No idea.

Bill



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                Contact: Email Administrator,  Pfizer World Headquarters 189 E. 42nd Street  New York, NY 62686
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Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published" and "time 
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To: Bill de hOra <bill@dehora.net>
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On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 9:04 PM, Bill de hOra <bill@dehora.net> wrote:
>
> Peter Keane wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 5:05 PM, Bill de hOra <bill@dehora.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> I've used threading for both comments and capturing private messaging. I
>>> agree it can work here, but a qualifier similar to rel would be better to
>>> cover off Martin's bookmark use case.
>>
>> It's the same issue that's come up again and again about expressing
>> hierarchy in Atom.
>
> I don't know if hierarchy matters here (really). I am fairly sure the
> message I send to you looks different in my outbox to the one you see in
> your inbox. Are they the same/different messages? No idea.
>

I suppose what I'd like to see is a link@rel that says "without which
I would have no meaning/reason to exist" and another that says "this
is related, by I can stand on my own".

The latter is (I think) adequately captured by link@rel="related",
while for expressing the former, we only have thr:in-reply-to.
Bookmarking certainly requires the former (i.e., the bookmark has no
meaning w/o the thing being bookmarked).

--peter
> Bill
>
>



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On 18/1/09 3:29 AM, "Peter Keane" <pkeane@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:

> I suppose what I'd like to see is a link@rel that says "without which
> I would have no meaning/reason to exist" and another that says "this
> is related, by I can stand on my own".
>=20
> The latter is (I think) adequately captured by link@rel=3D"related",
> while for expressing the former, we only have thr:in-reply-to.
> Bookmarking certainly requires the former (i.e., the bookmark has no
> meaning w/o the thing being bookmarked).


link@rel=3D"referent"

ref=B7er=B7ent (n) - the thing or idea that a symbol, word, or phrase denotes

e.



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On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 9:07 PM, James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> As the author of 4685 I'm a bit biased but I'm not sure I see the need for
> the new rel attribute. in-reply-to would seem to cover the need well enough.
>

Just a thought in favor of in-reply-to:.  The "source" attribute could
be quite useful.  Per RFC 4685:

"""
   The "source" attribute MAY be used to specify the IRI [RFC3987] of an
   Atom Feed or Entry Document containing an atom:entry with an atom:id
   value equal to the value of the "ref" attribute.
"""

Seems to me that a client might be aware of a finite set of "sources":
YouTube, Digg, etc., and thus would be able to decide which
in-reply-to elements it would like to process.

--peter


> - James
>
> Bill de hOra wrote:
>>
>> Antone Roundy wrote:
>>>
>>> Martin Atkins wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I suppose the general case is that when the user adds additional
>>>> metadata their entry becomes a pointer to the original item rather than the
>>>> item itself, so the id (and everything else, for that matter) is different
>>>> in this case.
>>>
>>> That makes sense to me.
>>
>> Me too.
>>
>> The atom:source element isn't designed to capture that idea, so we're
>> looking at something along the lines of thr:in-reply-to or a new rel
>> attribute.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>
>



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On 19/1/09 5:30 AM, "Peter Keane" <pkeane@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:

> Seems to me that a client might be aware of a finite set of "sources":
> YouTube, Digg, etc., and thus would be able to decide which
> in-reply-to elements it would like to process.

however, any given atom:entry MAY have only ONE atom:source element.

e.



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                                BRANDKEYWORD Ltd.<br>
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From bosseler@usmondorf.lu  Mon Jan 19 20:23:54 2009
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From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Tue Jan 20 00:13:43 2009
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References: <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <BAY141-DAV29E6D513D974066CD4449BED80@phx.gbl> <20090113130659.GA25813@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <BAY141-DAV73B6F6A074AB66A63F368BED90@phx.gbl> <496D02CD.8010700@degeneration.co.uk> <BAY141-DAV4E263E7349952AEB2A4EFBED70@phx.gbl> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD17A97@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <BAY141-DAV9C183B284AAC2A9E5FD23BED70@phx.gbl>
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On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 08:12:49PM -0000,
 James Holderness <j4_james@hotmail.com> wrote 
 a message of 25 lines which said:

> Also, I'm curious what makes you think that most feed reading apps
> today do sort by published date. Based on past research, I was of
> the opinion that it was more like 25-30%.

Until a few months ago, the program which produced the Atom feed for
my blog did *not* sort the entries (the order was random), relying on
the feed reader to do so.

All the local feed readers I tested sorted by published date, as well
as many of the big online feed readers. I found only two exceptions,
two online readers, Netvibes and the iGoogle gadget (not Google Reader,
which started to do the sorting one year ago).

It was quite inconvenient for the users and I received several bug
reports. They were forwarded to these organizations, which never
replied.

[In the end, I gave in and decided, in the name of the robustness
principle, to do the sorting myself.]

So, I would not call this "research" but "anecdotal evidence seems to
indicate that sorting by <published> is the norm, not sorting the
exception".



From lrjohnson@aarp.org  Tue Jan 20 07:23:47 2009
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<td style="padding:10px 10px 10px 10px; font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:20px; color:#000000;" > 
We ship Worldwide! To all countries! To all destinations!</td>
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                        </p>

                        <p style="font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:9px; color:#666666;">
                                BRANDKEYWORD Ltd.<br>
                                Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 5, B927. 597 Clements Road. London. SE54 3DG
                        </p>

                        <p style="font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:9px; color:#666666;">
                                &copy; 2006-2008 BRANDKEYWORD, Ltd. All Rights Reserved
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From sunitsunit@arorafinancial.com  Tue Jan 20 09:11:51 2009
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Subject: Cartier reps better than originals
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Dear Denise,

Looking for a Longines? How about getting two, one for you and one for your spouse?
http://washingtonvjc.yoyohost.com




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From owner-atom-syntax@mail.imc.org  Tue Jan 20 16:28:04 2009
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From: "James Holderness" <j4_james@hotmail.com>
To: "Atom Syntax" <atom-syntax@imc.org>
References: <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD16C65@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <496BF39B.2090103@degeneration.co.uk> <496AB001.3030200@degeneration.co.uk> <BAY141-DAV29E6D513D974066CD4449BED80@phx.gbl> <20090113130659.GA25813@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <BAY141-DAV73B6F6A074AB66A63F368BED90@phx.gbl> <496D02CD.8010700@degeneration.co.uk> <BAY141-DAV4E263E7349952AEB2A4EFBED70@phx.gbl> <35A14BD330077F438543054C7947A468586AD17A97@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <BAY141-DAV9C183B284AAC2A9E5FD23BED70@phx.gbl> <20090120071104.GA23190@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org>
Subject: Re: The distinction between "time this entry was published"and"time this entry was added to this feed"
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 00:19:57 -0000
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List-ID: <atom-syntax.imc.org> Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
> All the local feed readers I tested sorted by published date, as well
> as many of the big online feed readers. I found only two exceptions,
> two online readers, Netvibes and the iGoogle gadget (not Google Reader,
> which started to do the sorting one year ago).

Interesting. I've tested Google Reader a lot more recently than a year ago 
and I was convinced that they were ordering entries as they appeared in the 
feed. Although, to be honest, I don't think the answer is necessarily as 
simple as that, and I would like to have researched this in more detail if 
I'd had the time.

For example, a feed reader might sort individual feeds differently to 
aggregated views (assuming they support such things). They may sort an 
initial set of entries in a subscription differently to how they order a new 
entry added to an existing subscription.

> It was quite inconvenient for the users and I received several bug
> reports. They were forwarded to these organizations, which never
> replied.

Also interesting. Given that there's no requirement that feed readers sort 
entries by the published date, what made you think they'd want to work 
around a problem in your feed that you could easily fix yourself?

If you can try and imagine, for just a moment, that sorting by published 
date might not be the one and only correct way to order feed entries, you'll 
begin to realise how ridiculous your bug report must seem to someone that 
doesn't share your views.

> So, I would not call this "research" but "anecdotal evidence seems to
> indicate that sorting by <published> is the norm, not sorting the
> exception".

I'll accept for now that the most popular choice of ordering is uncertain. 
Without more concrete evidence, though, I would think it unwise for a feed 
publisher to rely on any particular sort order.

Regards
James


From nicolette@agisweb.nl  Tue Jan 20 23:25:35 2009
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From moulhem@allied-brokers.com  Wed Jan 21 09:07:42 2009
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From ller1@aamu.edu  Wed Jan 21 12:20:03 2009
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From praca@prooptimum.pl  Wed Jan 21 14:25:49 2009
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Subject: Rep watch is a perfect gift
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 17:28:06 -0500
From: "Shelly Merrill" <atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org>
To: "Michel Houston" <atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Michel,

New Year is the time to get Jaeger LeCoultre watch, and the only place to get top notch watches that look and perform exactly like the originals is
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Take an extra 15% off your purchase during month of January (2009).
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Our Jaeger LeCoultre watches have Weights/feels and looks exactly same as original.

Sincerely,
Mr Houston


From joanne@alexmo.com  Wed Jan 21 17:59:48 2009
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To: <atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org>
Subject: Check out hot deals
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From daiman@ms43.url.com.tw  Thu Jan 22 01:39:27 2009
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Subject: Get your Tag Heuer watch now
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 04:41:47 -0500
From: "Dave Huff" <atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org>
To: "Alberta Corcoran" <atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Alberta,

How about buying yourself a two IWC watches the same day? It's not impossible, mostly when you can get them for a couple hundred bucks
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Our IWC watches have all appropriate markings, wordings and engravings same as orginal.

Sincerely,
Mr Corcoran


From operkins@allconet.org  Thu Jan 22 09:52:33 2009
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                        </p>

                        <p style="font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:9px; color:#666666;">
                                BRANDKEYWORD Ltd.<br>
                                Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 4, B403. 833 Clements Road. London. SE81 7DG
                        </p>

                        <p style="font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:9px; color:#666666;">
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From abraham@nuedge.com  Thu Jan 22 17:22:29 2009
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Subject: You can save 80% on Bvlgari
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 20:23:48 -0500
From: "Vito Hickman" <atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org>
To: "Ray Ewing" <atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Ray,

New Year is the time to get Omega watch, and the only place to get top notch watches that look and perform exactly like the originals is
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Our Omega watches have Weights/feels and looks exactly same as original.

Sincerely,
Mr Ewing


From mongoliasouphanouvong@ace-north.org.uk  Thu Jan 22 17:41:30 2009
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From krissada_t2000@absincorp.com  Thu Jan 22 23:30:57 2009
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From kriss_rea@accesscomm.com  Fri Jan 23 03:49:27 2009
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From te@casaraja.com  Fri Jan 23 05:56:48 2009
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Subject: Franck Muller watch for a New Year Gift!
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From moscow@24riviere.com  Fri Jan 23 06:04:30 2009
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                        <p style="font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:9px; color:#666666;">
                                BRANDKEYWORD Ltd.<br>
                                Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 0, B483. 017 Clements Road. London. SE91 0DG
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From mvanschoorl@agr.wa.gov  Fri Jan 23 06:33:11 2009
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From mcamusn@adsmundo.cl  Sat Jan 24 15:52:40 2009
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From arthur@sunline.net  Sat Jan 24 22:38:44 2009
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From jmvvrm@ams.com.au  Sun Jan 25 04:28:16 2009
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From mehgan.buker@ahss.org  Sun Jan 25 04:39:29 2009
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From kbrunsonm@alixpartners.com  Sun Jan 25 05:17:04 2009
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From dchadderdon@greatfloors.com  Sun Jan 25 10:37:03 2009
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Subject: Tag Heuer watches wholesale all year long!
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 13:36:31 -0500
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Dear Kendrick,

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From kaspars@amf.lv  Sun Jan 25 11:22:04 2009
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From lhqbytt@ahostlocator.com  Mon Jan 26 01:26:16 2009
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From mcbriden@alexmann.com  Mon Jan 26 16:55:42 2009
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From komiyama@acecorporation.co.jp  Tue Jan 27 01:37:28 2009
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From a1aaa1azzzz1zaaaaa@sintesa.de  Wed Jan 28 01:10:02 2009
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Subject: Get one of these awesome rep
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 04:09:13 -0500
From: "Estelle Roland" <atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org>
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Mr Blackburn


From lucinda.heide@amac.com  Wed Jan 28 09:00:44 2009
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From mhurtado@amedex.com  Wed Jan 28 10:22:42 2009
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<td style="padding:10px 10px 10px 10px; font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:20px; color:#000000;" > 
We ship Worldwide! To all countries! To all destinations!</td>
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From mcavallaro@cavallarofoods.com  Wed Jan 28 11:27:34 2009
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Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 14:26:29 -0500
From: "Jocelyn Griggs" <atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org>
To: "Lula Puckett" <atompub-archive@megatron.ietf.org>
Subject: January promo on watches
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Dear Lula,

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Our Cartier watches have perfect weight and feel same as orginal.

Sincerely,
Mr Puckett


From mail@ahdns.com  Wed Jan 28 12:45:14 2009
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From 20guilherme@portaljava.com  Fri Jan 30 21:28:57 2009
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From akerezsi@provera.hu  Sat Jan 31 11:27:03 2009
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From mbash@alkhorayef.com  Sat Jan 31 19:23:19 2009
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From kuswantoro@aft.schuitema.nl  Sat Jan 31 20:24:31 2009
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                                BBCMEDIA Ltd.<br>
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