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Message-ID: <401E08DF.8010605@ericsson.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 09:22:55 +0100
From: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
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Subject: [AVT] WG Last Call: draft-ietf-avt-uncomp-video-05.txt
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This is to announce a working group last call on the RTP Payload Format for Uncompressed Video (draft-ietf-avt-uncomp-video-05.txt). 
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avt-uncomp-video-05.txt

Please send any final comments on this draft to the mailing list by Monday 16th February 2004.
At that time, we will consider if it is appropriate to request publication of this draft as a proposed standard RFC. 

Note that this draft will not be advanced until we receive at least one valid review from someone not directly involved with production of the draft (i.e., not an author or contributor). 

Best Regards

Magnus Westerlund 

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com



This communication is confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s). Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you believe this message has been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by replying to this transmission and delete the message without disclosing it. Thank you.

E-mail including attachments is susceptible to data corruption, interruption, unauthorized amendment, tampering and viruses, and we only send and receive e-mails on the basis that we are not liable for any such corruption, interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or any consequences thereof.


_______________________________________________
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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Subject: [AVT] My email diclaimer
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Hi,

As some people may have seen my last mail included a disclaimer. I have 
previously given my opinion on the list about these, as being often 
contradicting to the purpose of  this list. Any email to the AVT list is 
an open communication that is allowed to be read by anyone, and which is 
publicly archived. Unfortunately, this disclaimer is added without any 
control of me, and I haven't yet been able to do anything about it. The 
future will show if I can get of rid of it.

However as a clarification to the first paragraph in the disclaimer: For 
emails with the AVT WG as an addressee, the communication is intended to 
be open and is allowed to be read by anyone, including people reading 
this from the IETF archive.

 I am sorry

Magnus

Magnus Westerlund (KI/EAB) wrote:

>
>
>This communication is confidential and intended solely for the
>addressee(s). Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution
>is prohibited. If you believe this message has been sent to you in
>error, please notify the sender by replying to this transmission and
>delete the message without disclosing it. Thank you.
>
>E-mail including attachments is susceptible to data corruption,
>interruption, unauthorized amendment, tampering and viruses, and we only
>send and receive e-mails on the basis that we are not liable for any
>such corruption, interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or any
>consequences thereof.
>
>  
>

-- 

Magnus Westerlund 

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com



This communication is confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s). Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you believe this message has been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by replying to this transmission and delete the message without disclosing it. Thank you.

E-mail including attachments is susceptible to data corruption, interruption, unauthorized amendment, tampering and viruses, and we only send and receive e-mails on the basis that we are not liable for any such corruption, interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or any consequences thereof.


_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



From exim@www1.ietf.org  Mon Feb  2 15:56:08 2004
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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Extended RTP Profile for RTCP-based Feedback(RTP/AVPF)
	Author(s)	: J. Ott, S. Wenger
	Filename	: draft-ietf-avt-rtcp-feedback-08.txt
	Pages		: 54
	Date		: 2004-2-2
	
Real-time media streams that use RTP are, to some degree, resilient 
against packet losses.  Receivers may use the base mechanisms of 
RTCP to report packet reception statistics and thus allow a sender 
to adapt its transmission behavior in the mid-term as sole means 
for feedback and feedback-based error repair (besides a few codec-
specific mechanisms).  This document defines an extension to the 
Audio-visual Profile (AVP) that enables receivers to provide, 
statistically, more immediate feedback to the senders and thus 
allow for short-term adaptation and efficient feedback-based repair 
mechanisms to be implemented.  This early feedback profile (AVPF) 
maintains the AVP bandwidth constraints for RTCP and preserves 
scalability to large groups.

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http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avt-rtcp-feedback-08.txt

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_______________________________________________
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avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Datagram Congestion Control Protocol Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Datagram Congestion Control Protocol (DCCP) User Guide
	Author(s)	: T. Phelan
	Filename	: draft-ietf-dccp-user-guide-01.txt
	Pages		: 19
	Date		: 2004-2-2
	
This document is an informative reference discussing strategies for
   using DCCP as the transport protocol for various applications.  The
   focus is on how applications can make use of the capabilities, and
   deal with the idiosyncrasies, of DCCP.  Of particular interest is how
   UDP applications, which have traditionally ignored congestion control
   issues, can adapt to a congestion controlled transport.

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_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
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	Title		: RTP payload format for ATRAC family
	Author(s)	: M. Hatanaka
	Filename	: draft-hatanaka-avt-rtp-atrac-family-00.txt
	Pages		: 7
	Date		: 2004-2-2
	
This document describes an RTP payload format for efficient and
flexible transporting of audio data encoded with the ATRAC family of
codecs.  Recent enhancements to the ATRAC family of codecs support high
quality audio coding with multiple channels.  The RTP payload format as
presented in this document includes support for data fragmentation and
elementary redundancy measures.

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_______________________________________________
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avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



From exim@www1.ietf.org  Mon Feb  2 19:43:38 2004
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From: "Holmes,David A" <dholmes@mwdh2o.com>
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Subject: [AVT] RTCP in the Multicast Environment
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I'm new to the mailing list. I am looking for information on how RTCP is
implemented in a one-sender to many-receiver multicast environment. In
particular, I am interested in how the sender uses jitter, packet loss, etc.
feedback from the receivers to modulate the multicast stream. For instance,
in a network in which receivers are located at various leaf nodes of a
multicast tree, can one congested leaf node throttle the sender such that
all leaf node receivers are throttled, even if they are not congested?

David Holmes

_______________________________________________
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From exim@www1.ietf.org  Thu Feb  5 08:00:39 2004
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From: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
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Subject: [AVT] The RTP payload format for multichannel codecs's signalling problem
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Hi,

Colin raised in Minneapolis a concern regarding the channel signalling 
for the AMR-WB+ payload format. The AMR-WB+ codec has both mono and 
stereo modes. On a codec level the difference is detected based on the 
frame type (FT) indicator for each frame. It is technical possible to 
switch between modes, but it does not provide as good switching 
performance as between the classic AMR-WB mono modes. However this codec 
"internal" or inband information about channels, modes etc. creates 
problem on RTP level and for the signalling. The problems described here 
is not limited to the AMR-WB+ codec, but does also effect other channels 
with internal signalling for different channel configuration.

The signalling problem is that the current practice of defining a MIME 
type and parameters and include them in SDP is not really capable of 
expressing the codecs capabilities in a good way. As it looks now, each 
declared payload type (PT) can only mean one channel configuration plus 
other parameter configuration.

This has not been a problem as long as one uses the PT field for its 
intended usage to the fully, i.e. having codec, packetization and all 
parameters being encoded in the PT: For example a stereo 16-bit PCM 
encoded audio stream is easy to describe with a MIME type and a couple 
of parameters: L16, frequency=44000, channels=2. Using the PT as 
intended also has the advantage of simplifying payload design, having 
the information explicit in the RTP header (thus avoiding per payload 
format special investigation for demultiplexing). However with the 
payload inband signalling of this information, it gets concealed within 
the payload.

This results in that declarative explicitness is diminished, and creates 
problem in cases of negotiation, like for SIP using Offer/Answer. For 
example, one possible solution for AMR-WB+ could be to declare a single 
payload type, which is always declared as being stereo. Thus expressing 
the full span of the codec capabilities. However if one only intends to 
use mono modes, this can't be expressed in this solution. It also forces 
a receiver application to set up resources beyond the what is really 
needed.

To maintain the declarative explicitness and uses the available 
mechanisms it will mean that one will need to declare different PTs for 
each channel configuration. Which would mean that an AMR-WB declaration 
possibly using both mono and stereo would look like this in SDP:

m=audio 49120 RTP/AVP 98 99
a=rtpmap:98 AMR-WB+/96000/1
a=fmtp:98 interleaving=30
 a=rtpmap:99 AMR-WB+/96000/2
a=fmtp:99 interleaving=30

However I would also like to point out that using too many PTs are not 
also not advisable, especially in regards to mechanisms like RTP 
retransmission that requires you to double the number of PTs used. 
However this should not be a concern unless we start using 10 or more 
PTs per codec.

So which alternative is better in your opinion, or do you have another 
proposal on how to solve the problem?


Best Regards

Magnus Westerlund 

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com



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_______________________________________________
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From exim@www1.ietf.org  Thu Feb  5 13:38:38 2004
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To: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
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Subject: Re: [AVT] The RTP payload format for multichannel codecs's signalling
 problem
References: <40223D4C.4020209@ericsson.com>
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We have a similar problem with distinguishing between audio, voice-band data (high 
speed and low speed), voice-band text, and voice-band FAX.  Each of these requires 
a different combination of treatments in terms of echo cancellor operation, 
silence suppression, and jitter buffer operation.

Magnus Westerlund wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Colin raised in Minneapolis a concern regarding the channel signalling 
> for the AMR-WB+ payload format. The AMR-WB+ codec has both mono and 
> stereo modes. On a codec level the difference is detected based on the 
> frame type (FT) indicator for each frame. It is technical possible to 
> switch between modes, but it does not provide as good switching 
> performance as between the classic AMR-WB mono modes. However this codec 
> "internal" or inband information about channels, modes etc. creates 
> problem on RTP level and for the signalling. The problems described here 
> is not limited to the AMR-WB+ codec, but does also effect other channels 
> with internal signalling for different channel configuration.
> 
> The signalling problem is that the current practice of defining a MIME 
> type and parameters and include them in SDP is not really capable of 
> expressing the codecs capabilities in a good way. As it looks now, each 
> declared payload type (PT) can only mean one channel configuration plus 
> other parameter configuration.
> 
> This has not been a problem as long as one uses the PT field for its 
> intended usage to the fully, i.e. having codec, packetization and all 
> parameters being encoded in the PT: For example a stereo 16-bit PCM 
> encoded audio stream is easy to describe with a MIME type and a couple 
> of parameters: L16, frequency=44000, channels=2. Using the PT as 
> intended also has the advantage of simplifying payload design, having 
> the information explicit in the RTP header (thus avoiding per payload 
> format special investigation for demultiplexing). However with the 
> payload inband signalling of this information, it gets concealed within 
> the payload.
> 
> This results in that declarative explicitness is diminished, and creates 
> problem in cases of negotiation, like for SIP using Offer/Answer. For 
> example, one possible solution for AMR-WB+ could be to declare a single 
> payload type, which is always declared as being stereo. Thus expressing 
> the full span of the codec capabilities. However if one only intends to 
> use mono modes, this can't be expressed in this solution. It also forces 
> a receiver application to set up resources beyond the what is really 
> needed.
> 
> To maintain the declarative explicitness and uses the available 
> mechanisms it will mean that one will need to declare different PTs for 
> each channel configuration. Which would mean that an AMR-WB declaration 
> possibly using both mono and stereo would look like this in SDP:
> 
> m=audio 49120 RTP/AVP 98 99
> a=rtpmap:98 AMR-WB+/96000/1
> a=fmtp:98 interleaving=30
> a=rtpmap:99 AMR-WB+/96000/2
> a=fmtp:99 interleaving=30
> 
> However I would also like to point out that using too many PTs are not 
> also not advisable, especially in regards to mechanisms like RTP 
> retransmission that requires you to double the number of PTs used. 
> However this should not be a concern unless we start using 10 or more 
> PTs per codec.
> 
> So which alternative is better in your opinion, or do you have another 
> proposal on how to solve the problem?
> 
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> Magnus Westerlund
> Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
> Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
> S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
> 
> 
> 
> This communication is confidential and intended solely for the 
> addressee(s). Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution 
> is prohibited. If you believe this message has been sent to you in 
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> send and receive e-mails on the basis that we are not liable for any 
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> _______________________________________________
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> 

_______________________________________________
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



From exim@www1.ietf.org  Thu Feb  5 17:08:38 2004
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Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 14:04:37 -0800
To: avt@ietf.org
From: Ross Finlayson <finlayson@live.com>
Subject: Re: [AVT] The RTP payload format for multichannel codecs's
  signalling problem
In-Reply-To: <40223D4C.4020209@ericsson.com>
References: <40223D4C.4020209@ericsson.com>
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It seems to me that for any codec that carries channel etc. parameters 
inband - and allows these parameters to change 'on the fly' - there is an 
implicit assumption that each receiver should be able to handle all 
possible settings of these inband parameters.  So, given this, your first 
proposed solution seems to make the most sense: Declare the AMR-WB+ RTP 
payload type to be for stereo, even though all frames within such a stream 
might actually turn out to be mono.

	Ross.


_______________________________________________
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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Subject: [AVT] Reminder: Deadlines for upcomming 59th IETF meeting
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Hi,

This is a reminder about the deadlines. The first one is already on 
Monday. If you have a initial draft, make sure to meet the deadline, the 
cut-off is handled in a strict way.

The AVT WG is planning to have two sessions during the next IETF
meeting, for a total of 4 or 4.5 hours. If you have issues or are going
to submit drafts for the WG in Korea, please make note of the following
deadlines.

The deadline for submission of -00 internet-drafts is 9 am US EST (GMT
-05:00) on Monday the 9th of February. Individual submissions intended
for eventual working group discussion should be named
draft-<authorname>-avt-<shortsubject>-00.txt. Initial working group
drafts, which have previously been approved by the chairs, may use the
draft-ietf-avt- prefix.

The deadline for all other internet-draft submissions is Monday 16th of
February at 9 am US EST. This day is also the last day to pre-register
to the meeting, the cut-off is at 12.00 EST.

Any one desiring to have a presentation and discussion during the AVT
working group's slots in Seoul MUST request time on the agenda. A
submission of a draft is not sufficient for receiving agenda time. Send
the request before the 16th of February, 2003 at 24.00 GMT to BOTH
chairs. In the request include the following information:

A. Presentation Title:

B. Name of presenter:

C. Draft Reference(s):

D. Requested amount of time in minutes:


Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com




This communication is confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s). Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you believe this message has been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by replying to this transmission and delete the message without disclosing it. Thank you.

E-mail including attachments is susceptible to data corruption, interruption, unauthorized amendment, tampering and viruses, and we only send and receive e-mails on the basis that we are not liable for any such corruption, interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or any consequences thereof.


_______________________________________________
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



From exim@www1.ietf.org  Fri Feb  6 07:18:36 2004
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From: "Arnoud van Wijk" <a.vwijk@viataal.nl>
To: "'Tom Taylor'" <taylor@nortelnetworks.com>,
        "'Magnus Westerlund'" <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
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Subject: RE: [AVT] The RTP payload format for multichannel codecs's signalling problem
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 13:15:56 +0100
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For voice band text, I asume you mean V21 and V18 and Boudot and other text
telephone protocols?

Greetz

Arnoud

-----Original Message-----
From: avt-admin@ietf.org [mailto:avt-admin@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tom Taylor
Sent: donderdag 5 februari 2004 19:35
To: Magnus Westerlund
Cc: avt@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [AVT] The RTP payload format for multichannel codecs's
signalling problem

We have a similar problem with distinguishing between audio, voice-band data
(high 
speed and low speed), voice-band text, and voice-band FAX.  Each of these
requires 
a different combination of treatments in terms of echo cancellor operation, 
silence suppression, and jitter buffer operation.




_______________________________________________
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Sorry for any multiple reception of this message,

Send an email with REMOVE on the subject

Cheers,
Pierfrancesco Bellini, Bernhard Steffen, Shawn Bohner
Paolo Nesi, Alessandro Fantechi, José-Luis Fernández-Villacañas

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IEEE International Conference on
Engineering of Complex Computer Systems,
IEEE ICECCS, Florence, Italy, 14-16 April, 2004

http://www.dsi.unifi.it/iceccs04

_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°
Workshop on Software and Complex Systems, WSCS 
14th April 2004 , Florence , Italy 

This workshop will concentrate on how Software Technologies and Distributed
Systems can help in the design and management of complex systems, linking
industrial and academic partners, research and application.

organised by: 
- European Commission, DG INFSO D3, INFSO, Software Technologies and Distributed Systems. 
- DISIT-DSI, Distributed Systems and Internet Technology, 
  Department of Systems and Informatics, University of Florence 

http://www.dsi.unifi.it/iceccs04/ec-workshop.htm

Chaired by:
José-Luis Fernández-Villacañas, Paolo Nesi, Alessandro Fantechi

_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°

Topic Areas: related to complex computer-based systems, including the causes of 
complexity and means of avoiding, controlling, or coping with complexity. 
Topic areas includes, but are not limited to:
* System and software architecture and system engineering
* Tools, environments, and languages for complex systems
* Formal methods and approaches to manage and control complex systems
* Integration of heterogeneous technologies
* Software and system development and control processes for complex systems
* Human factors and collaborative aspects
* Interoperability and standardization
* Systems and software safety and security
* Industrial automation, embedded and/or real time systems
* Content production and distribution systems, mobile and multi-channel 
systems
* Software complexity visualization
* Virtual environments for managing complexity

_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°_°


_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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Subject: [AVT] 2nd CFP: NOSSDAV 2004 (Cork, Ireland)
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2nd CALL FOR PAPERS

The 14th International Workshop on Network and Operating Systems Support
for Digital Audio and Video (NOSSDAV 2004) June 16-18, 2004 --- Kinsale, 
County Cork, Ireland
http://www.nossdav.org/2004/


NOSSDAV 2004 will take place in Kinsale on the exceptionally scenic
southern coast of Ireland. Kinsale is approximately a 20 minute drive
outside Cork city, which is within easy reach of major European capitals
and the east coast of the US. The workshop is sponsored primarily by ACM
SIG Multimedia, Microsoft Research and Science Foundation Ireland, with
secondary sponsorship by IBM Research, and is being held in cooperation
with ACM SIGCOMM and ACM SIGMOBILE (pending).

NOSSDAV invites submissions on all areas of multimedia, but strongly
encourages submissions in newly emerging specialized areas such as
networked games and peer-to-peer streaming. NOSSDAV 2004 will be run
very much as a workshop with an emphasis on cutting-edge research and
lively discussion. Papers grounded in high-quality experimental research
based on prototype or real systems, including innovative experimental
commercial designs and prototypes, as well as papers proposing new
research directions for the community or calling into question existing
conventional wisdom are particularly welcome.

STUDENT PARTICIPATION IS STRONGLY ENCOURAGED
- supported by several student travel grants and registration fee rebates.

Submissions should be no longer than 6 pages. The expectation is that
papers accepted at the workshop will eventually lead to full-length
papers at high-quality conferences or journals. The topics of interest
include, but are not limited to:

* Networked games
* Peer-to-peer multimedia
* Broadband streaming media content distribution
* 3D multimedia and (networked) immersive environments
* Wireless and ad-hoc network multimedia systems
* Embedded multimedia devices (e.g., PVRs)
* Multimedia security
* Internet telephony
* Sensory interactive applications
* Digital rights management

Deadlines:

Paper registration deadline - February 23, 2004, (5pm EST) (*firm*) 
Paper submission deadline - March 1, 2004, (5pm EST) (*firm*)

Program Co-Chairs:

Venkat Padmanabhan, Microsoft Research (USA) Cormac Sreenan, University 
College Cork (Ireland)
Email: nossdav2004-pcchairs@cs.ucc.ie

Program Committee:

Kevin Almeroth, UC Santa Barbara (USA) Ernst Biersack, Institut Eurecom
(France) Phil Chou, Microsoft Research (USA) Christophe Diot, Intel
Research (UK) Kevin Jeffay, UNC Chapel Hill (USA) Srinivasan Keshav,
University of Waterloo (Canada) Sue Moon, KAIST (Korea) Reza Rejaie,
University of Oregon (USA) Henning Schulzrinne, Columbia University
(USA) Srinivasan Seshan, CMU (USA) Anees Shaikh, IBM Research (USA) Lars
Wolf, TU Braunschweig (Germany)



_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



From exim@www1.ietf.org  Sun Feb  8 10:40:40 2004
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Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 07:37:53 -0800
To: avt@ietf.org
From: Ross Finlayson <finlayson@live.com>
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Subject: [AVT] Advancing the "audio/mpa-robust" RTP payload format to Draft
 Standard?
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I have just submitted to the Internet Drafts editor an updated version of 
the "audio/mpa-robust" RTP payload format specification.  This can also be 
found online as
	<http://www.live.com/rtp-mp3/rfc3119bis.txt>
(This draft updates RFC 3119, correcting some typographical errors.)

I have also submitted a new Internet Draft 
"draft-finlayson-avt-mpa-robust-interoperability-00.txt" (currently online 
as 
<http://www.live.com/draft-finlayson-avt-mpa-robust-interoperability-00.txt>) 
that notes interoperability between two (and in some cases three) 
independent implementations of this payload format.  This is a requirement 
for advancing this payload format specification from "Proposed" to "Draft" 
Standard.

	Ross.


_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



From exim@www1.ietf.org  Sun Feb  8 13:20:37 2004
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Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 18:17:49 +0000
From: Colin Perkins <csp@csperkins.org>
To: avt@ietf.org
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Organization: http://csperkins.org/
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Subject: [AVT] IPR claims on RFC 2733 and draft-ietf-avt-ulp-08.txt
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Folks,

It has recently been brought to the attention of the working group chairs
that Lucent Technologies may have Intellectual Property Rights related to
the following IETF documents:

(1) RFC 2733, "An RTP Payload Format for Generic Forward Error Correction" 
    (http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2733.txt)
(2) draft-ietf-avt-ulp, "An RTP Payload Format for Generic FEC"
    (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avt-ulp-08.txt)

As per RFC 2026, the IETF Executive Director has requested clarification on
the licensing of that IPR.  We will inform the working group of any update,
and will post any IPR notice on http://www.ietf.org/ipr.html

Colin

_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



From exim@www1.ietf.org  Sun Feb  8 20:16:38 2004
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Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 20:14:21 -0500
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From: Ladan Gharai <ladan@isi.edu>
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Subject: [AVT] New Draft: RTP Profile for TCP Friendly Rate Control
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Dear AVT'ers:

I have just submitted a new draft draft-gharai-avt-tfrc-profile-00.txt 
to the Internet Drafts editor. The draft is also available on line at 
http://www.east.isi.edu/projects/MACC/tfrc-profile.txt

This is a preliminary draft for a RTP profile for TFRC,  "RTP/AVPCC". 
Please read and comment on the draft, in particular on the following 
two items:

(I)     A TFRC receiver depends on  receiving  estimates of the current 
RTT and the send time of each RTP packet, in order to compute its loss 
event rate.
         A simplistic approach to providing this information to the 
receiver is to add fixed fields to the RTP data header. This approach 
has a number of draw backs: (1) current implementations may not be able 
to parse such packets; (2) additional overhead of 8 octets in each data 
packet.
        Ideally, a TFRC receiver would be able to make do with the 
standard RTP time stamp (which denotes sampling or presentation time) - 
and would be able to compute the RTT itself (with the added bonus of 
also providing it to the TFRC sender).
        This raises two questions: (1) does the RTP time stamp suffice 
for loss event calculations? and (2) is it possible to have the 
receiver compute RTTs?


(II)      A  TFRC sender requires feedback at least once per RTT.  
Depending on the data rate of a flow and the RTT, this TFRC requirement 
may result in violation of RTCPs minimum interval and bandwidth 
restrictions/recommendations. According to RFC3550  a profile MAY 
specify control traffic bandwidth as a separate session parameter. Is 
there a similar provision for profiles where the scaled minimum RTCP 
interval does not suffice? (i.e. where does the profile state that it 
cannot abide by the recommended minimum RTCP  interval?)

Ladan Gharai
http://www.east.isi.edu/~ladan


_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



From exim@www1.ietf.org  Mon Feb  9 07:33:43 2004
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From: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
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To: Tom Taylor <taylor@nortelnetworks.com>
CC: avt@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [AVT] The RTP payload format for multichannel codecs's signalling
 problem
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Hi Tom,

The problem you describe has what I understand solely to do with what 
you use a established media stream. However the problem I discuss has to 
do more directly with the codecs capabilities. If a encoder has stereo 
and mono capabilities and can switch between them, what is necessary to 
signal. For my problem there are certain configuration information that 
needs to be distributed outside of the encoder to decoder chain, this 
primarily being the receivers playback facilities, so that they are 
capable of handling both outputs from the decoder.

So I don't think the problems are that similar. My problem is in direct 
relation to properties of the codec, while your problem is in relation 
the usage.

Cheers

Magnus

Tom Taylor wrote:

>We have a similar problem with distinguishing between audio, voice-band
>data (high 
>speed and low speed), voice-band text, and voice-band FAX.  Each of
>these requires 
>a different combination of treatments in terms of echo cancellor
>operation, 
>silence suppression, and jitter buffer operation.
>
>  
>
 

Magnus Westerlund 

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
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From exim@www1.ietf.org  Mon Feb  9 08:43:35 2004
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Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt
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From: "Ash, Gerald R (Jerry), ALABS" <gash@att.com>
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Subject: [AVT] RE: I-D ACTION:draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt
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All,

Please review and comment on 'Protocol Extensions for ECRTP over MPLS' =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protoco=
l-00.txt.  The protocol extensions enable the use of MPLS to route =
enhanced compressed RTP (ECRTP) compressed packets over an MPLS LSP =
without compression/decompression cycles at each router.

The proposed extensions are based on the requirements documented in =
'Requirements for ECRTP over MPLS' =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-reqs-01=
.txt.

Thanks,
Jerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org [mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org]
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 3:43 PM
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.


	Title		: Protocol Extensions for ECRTP over MPLS
	Author(s)	: J. Ash
	Filename	: draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt
	Pages		: 0
	Date		: 2004-2-5
=09
VoIP typically uses the encapsulation voice/RTP/UDP/IP. When MPLS labels =

are added, this becomes voice/RTP/UDP/IP/MPLS-labels. For an MPLS VPN,=20
the packet header is at least 48 bytes, while the voice payload is often =

no more than 30 bytes, for example. VoIP header compression can=20
significantly reduce the VoIP overhead through various compression=20
mechanisms, such as enhanced compressed RTP (ECRTP). We consider using=20
MPLS to route ECRTP compressed packets over an MPLS LSP without=20
compression/decompression cycles at each router. Such an ECRTP over MPLS =

capability can increase the bandwidth efficiency as well as processing=20
scalability of the maximum number of simultaneous VoIP flows that use=20
header compression at each router.  In this draft we propose to use=20
RSVP-TE extensions to signal the header compression context and other=20
control messages between the ingress and egress LSR.  We re-use the=20
methods in ECRTP to determine the context.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protoco=
l-00.txt.

_______________________________________________
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From exim@www1.ietf.org  Mon Feb  9 11:19:35 2004
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hello all,
 I am doing a research on the use of rtcp protocol  on
monitoring (third party) the status of a network.
    The two values I am specially interested in is
packet loss rate and jitter in msec.I order to get the
packet loss rate mentioned in rfc 3550 (if I have
understant it correctly)
 
loss rate per sec= (fraction over the interval)
/(ntp(i+1)-ntp(i))
where 
ntp=ntp timestamp
and 
fraction over the interval=(cum(i+1)-cum(i)) /
(elsn(i+1)-elsn(i))
where
cum=cummulative number of packets lost
elsn=extended last sequence number
 
a) in order to get the ntp timetsamps, if I only track
RR packets, should I use the LSR field and how do I
convert it in sec? Is LSR expressed in units of
1/65536 sec as DLSR?
b)instead of using ( fraction over the
interval=(cum(i+1)-cum(i)) / (elsn(i+1)-elsn(i)) ) can
I use the Field FRACTION LOST (and the ntp timestamps
will be consequtive) ?
 
c)In order to estimate the value of jitter in msec, in
the rfc it says that the intearrival jitter is
measured in timestamp units, by timestamp you mean the
rtp timsetamp which is definitely dependent on the
sampling frequency?
d)To estimate the interarrival jitter in msec should I
multiply jitter*(rtp_timestamp) ?
 
thanks in advance 
regards


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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: RTP Payload Formats for European Telecommunications 
			  Standardsv Institute (ETSI) European Standard ES 202 
			  050, ES 202 211, and ES 202 212 Distributed Speech 
			  Recognition Encoding
	Author(s)	: Q. Xie
	Filename	: draft-ietf-avt-rtp-dsr-codecs-00.txt
	Pages		: 21
	Date		: 2004-2-9
	
This document specifies RTP payload formats for encapsulating ETSI
   Standard ES 202 050 DSR Advanced Front-end (AFE), ES 202 211 DSR
   Extended Front-end (XFE), and ES 202 212 DSR Extended Advanced
   Front-end (XAFE) signal processing feature streams for distributed
   speech recognition (DSR) systems.

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_______________________________________________
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From exim@www1.ietf.org  Mon Feb  9 23:59:36 2004
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Hi, all,

This draft is the result of merging three previously separate DSR 
drafts, per a WG suggestion made at the last IETF in Minneapolis. There 
is one tech change made in this revision to the ES 202 050 payload 
format - in order to be consistent with other DSR RTP formats and better 
align with ETSI definition, the position of the 4 bit FP CRC and 4 bit 
padding at the end of a FP are exchanged and are now explicitly drawn in 
the draft to prevent any ambiguity.

Your review and comments are welcome.

regards,
-Qiaobing

Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote:

> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Working Group of the IETF.
> 
> 	Title		: RTP Payload Formats for European Telecommunications 
> 			  Standardsv Institute (ETSI) European Standard ES 202 
> 			  050, ES 202 211, and ES 202 212 Distributed Speech 
> 			  Recognition Encoding
> 	Author(s)	: Q. Xie
> 	Filename	: draft-ietf-avt-rtp-dsr-codecs-00.txt
> 	Pages		: 21
> 	Date		: 2004-2-9
> 	
> This document specifies RTP payload formats for encapsulating ETSI
>    Standard ES 202 050 DSR Advanced Front-end (AFE), ES 202 211 DSR
>    Extended Front-end (XFE), and ES 202 212 DSR Extended Advanced
>    Front-end (XAFE) signal processing feature streams for distributed
>    speech recognition (DSR) systems.
> 
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avt-rtp-dsr-codecs-00.txt
> 
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_______________________________________________
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In message <9473683187ADC049A855ED2DA739ABCA0201F057@KCCLUST06EVS1.ugd.att.com>
, "Ash, Gerald R (Jerry), ALABS" writes:
> All,
> 
> Please review and comment on 'Protocol Extensions for ECRTP over MPLS' http:/
> /www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt. 
>  The protocol extensions enable the use of MPLS to route enhanced compressed 
> RTP (ECRTP) compressed packets over an MPLS LSP without compression/decompres
> sion cycles at each router.
> 
> The proposed extensions are based on the requirements documented in 'Requirem
> ents for ECRTP over MPLS' http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ash-avt-e
> crtp-over-mpls-reqs-01.txt.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jerry
> 
> 
> 	Title		: Protocol Extensions for ECRTP over MPLS
> 	Author(s)	: J. Ash
> 	Filename	: draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt
> 	Pages		: 0
> 	Date		: 2004-2-5


Jerry,

This looks to be a very good direction to go in.  I've dropped MPLS
from the Cc and put MPLS on the bcc so people know the discussion is
on the AVT mailing list only.

In your encapsulations you should make sure to avoid any values in the
first byte that could be mistaken as IPv4 or IPv6 or any of the
encapsulations being worked on by those working on VPN and PW.  See
"The PWE3 Control Word", Jonathan Stein, 22-Oct-02,
draft-stein-pwe3-controlword-00.txt, for some early discussion on
that.  Note though that "Payload Type" is something that many
providers require so that multipath can be used on IP traffic which
consitutes the majority of traffic yet reordering is avoided for
traffic which cannot be split based on what appears to be an IP header
and the IP src/dst pair.

It might be best to reserve a single fixed first byte for the "Packet
Type" (and I suggest you make up a name for this shim such as
SCID_Packet_Type) and use the second byte for the packet types that
you have defined.  Just as you have to get numbers for SCID_Request
Object and Header_Compression_Reply Object from IANA, you'll have to
coordinate with others over this number space, though it is less clear
if IANA is the authority on this quite yet.

Curtis

_______________________________________________
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 With our apologize for any duplicates;

--------------------  CIT2004  CALL FOR PAPER   -----------------------

The 2004 International Conference on Computer and Information Technology =

                               (CIT2004)
                  Wuhan, China, 14-16 September 2004,=20

                  http://smlsvr01.u-aizu.ac.jp/~cit2004/


CALL FOR PAPERS        =20

   Information technology has been widely considered as one of the most=20
important emerging technologies for the 21st century, which has been =
made=20
great impact on people and society. In the recent years, throughout=20
society, the explosion of computer network and information technology=20
has been changing the way people work and live. This conference serves =
as=20
one of the major forums for researchers and practitioners from academia=20
and industry to discuss and exchange ideas and opinions, and envision=20
the future of computer and information technology.=20

   In 2004, it will specially focus on graphics, multimedia, web =
services,=20
and wireless/mobile/pervasive computing in the related research,=20
development and application fields. Topics of particular interest=20
include, but are not limited to:

1) Graphics and MultimediaGraphics systems,=20

 shape abstraction modeling,=20
 geometric modeling,=20
 rendering algorithms,=20
 virtual reality techniques,=20
 volume visualization,=20
 animation techniques,=20
 pattern recognition,=20
 image understanding,=20
 interactive multimedia systems,=20
 networked multimedia,=20
 human-computer interaction

2) Web-based Services=20
=20
 Web data management,=20
 web mining,=20
 semantic web,=20
 web services performance and modeling,=20
 e-learning,=20
 XML structures,=20
 grid-based services,=20
 grid middleware and tools,=20
 distributed algorithms,=20
 peer-to-peer networks,=20
 next generation internet technologies
=20
3) wireless/mobile/pervasive Computing

 Wireless computing systems,=20
 ad hoc networking service discovery,=20
 wireless-phone computing,=20
 mobile communication,=20
 portable devices and smart sensors,=20
 wearable computers and PDAs,=20
 pervasive system concepts and architectures,=20
 pervasive applications,=20
 infrastructure and networks of ubiquitous computing
=20
4) Applications=20

 Intelligent health care system,=20
 information retrieval,=20
 knowledge management,=20
 information design,=20
 medical information systems,=20
 database and application systems,=20
 software agents,=20
 software engineering,=20
 natural language processing
=20

IMPORTANT DATES

 Paper submission due:         20 April 2004
 Acceptance notification:      5 June 2004
 Camera-ready due:             25 June 2004
 Author registration:          20 July 2004

PUBLICATIONS       =20

    The accepted papers have to be presented orally within 25 minutes=20
included discussion at the conference and will be published in=20
proceedings of CIT2004 by IEEE Computer Society. The selected best=20
papers will be published in special issues of International Journals.

BEST PAPER AWARDS

    The program committee will select one winner for the Best Paper =
Award=20
(all regular papers are eligible) and one winner for the Best Student =
Paper=20
Award (only the regular papers whose first author is a full-time student =

are eligible). Each winner will be presented with a certification and=20
a cheque. SUBMISSION GUIDELINESSubmissions should include an abstract,=20
5-7 keywords, the e-mail address of the corresponding author, and must =
not=20
exceed 8 pages (IEEE format), including tables and figures, with PDF,=20
PostScript, or MS Word format.

    Submission of a paper should be regarded as an undertaking that, =
should=20
the paper be accepted, at least one of the authors will attend the=20
conference to present the work. Submissions to CIT2004 will be conducted =

electronically on the CIT2004 website. Authors unable to access e-mail=20
may send 4 hard copies of their papers to:

 PC Co-Chair, Dr. Hui Wang
 School of Computer Science and Engineering,=20
 University of Aizu,Ikki-machi, Aizu-Wakamatsu City,
 Fukushima 965-8580, Japan
=20
 Email: hwang@u-aizu.ac.jp=20
 Tel: +81-242-37-2666
 Fax: +81-242-37-2728

CONFERENCE WEB SITE:       =20
 http://smlsvr01.u-aizu.ac.jp/~cit2004/
=20
HONORARY GENERAL CHAIRS

 Jingnan Liu, Wuhan University, China
 Tetsuhiko Ikegami, University of Aizu, Japan

GENERAL CHAIRS

 Daming Wei, University of Aizu, Japan
 Yanxiang He, Wuhan University, China

ADVISORY COMMITTEE
=20
 Chris Constantinou, Stanford University, USA
 Chin-Chen Chang, National Chung Cheng University, Taiwan
 Huowang Chen, Changsha Institute of Technology, China
 Keqing He, Wuhan University, China
 Lishan Kang, Wuhan University, China=20
 Kae Dal Kwack, Hanyang University, Korea
 Deyi Li, Institute of China Electronic System Engineering, China
 Sanli Li, Tsinghua University, China
 Bole Shi, Fudan University, China
 Gengfeng Wu, Shanghai University, China
 Guoqing Wu, Wuhan University, China
 Fumio Okuyama, Suzuka University of Mecial Science, Japan
 Yoneo Yano, Tokushima University, Japan=20
=20
PROGRAM COMMITTEE CHAIRS
=20
 Hui Wang, University of Aizu, Japan
 Zhiyong Peng, Wuhan University, China=20
 Atsushi Kara, University of Aizu, Japan

PUBLICITY CHAIRS

 Qun Jin, Waseda University, Japan
 Qing Li, City University of Hong Kong, China
 Yanchun Zhang, Victoria University, Australia

LOCAL ORGANISATION  COMMITTEE
=20
 Shi Ying, Wuhan University, China
 Xusheng Yang, Wuhan University, China
 Huaibei Zhou, Wuhan University, China
 Jiaheng Cao, Wuhan University, China
 Xuhui Li, Wuhan University, China

PROGRAM COMMITTEE

 Saeid Belkasim, Georgia State University, USA                           =
 =20
 Subhash Bhalla, University of Aizu, Japan                               =
 =20
 Wenxi Chen, University of Aizu, Japan                                   =
         =20
 Zixue Cheng, University of Aizu, Japan                                  =
 =20
 Michael Cohen, University of Aizu, Japan                                =
 =20
 Brian d'Auriol, University of Texas at EP, USA                          =
 =20
 Youdong Ding, Shanghai University, China                                =
 =20
 Zuxiang Fang, Fudan University, China                                   =
 =20
 Jihong Guan, Wuhan University, China                                    =
=20
 Guoqing Gu, East China Normal University, China                         =
 =20
 Ning Gu, Fudan University, China                                        =
 =20
 Minyi Guo, University of Aizu, Japan                                    =
 =20
 Khairuddin Hashim, Tun Abdul Razak University, Malaysia                 =
=20
 Toshihiro Hayashi, Saga University, Japan                               =
 =20
 Aiguo He, University of Aizu, Japan                                     =
 =20
 Tingting He, Huazhong Normal University, China                          =
 =20
 Susantha Herath, St. Cloud State University, USA                        =
 =20
 Hai Jin, Huazhong University of Science and Technology, China           =
 =20
 Hua Hu, Hangzhou Institute of Commerce, China                           =
 =20
 Jicheng Hu, Wuhan University, China                                     =
=20
 Xiaohua Hu, Drexel University, USA                                      =
 =20
 Jie Huang, University of Aizu, Japan                                    =
 =20
 Rajgopal Kannan, Louisiana State University, USA                        =
     =20
 Keqin Li, State University of New York, USA                             =
 =20
 Minglu Li, Shanghai Jiao Tong University, China                         =
 =20
 Vitaliy Kluev, University of Aizu, Japan                                =
 =20
 Yiwen Liang, Wuhan University, China                                    =
=20
 Yong Liu, University of Aizu, Japan                                     =
 =20
 Zhen Liu, Nagasaki Institute of Applied Science, Japan                  =
 =20
 Jianhua Ma, Hosei University, Japan                                     =
=20
 William L. Martens, McGill University, Canada                           =
 =20
 Geyong Min, University of Bradford, UK                                  =
=20
 Nikolay N. Mirenkov, University of Aizu, Japan                          =
 =20
 Mukesh Mohania, IBM India Res Lab, India                                =
 =20
 Shoji Nishimura, Waseda University, Japan                               =
=20
 Fumio Okuyama, Suzuka University of Medical Science, Japan              =
                =20
 Incheon Paik, University of Aizu, Japan                                 =
 =20
 Yi Pan, Georgia State University , USA                                  =
 =20
 Lim Ee Peng, Nanyang Technological University , Singapore               =
 =20
 Sibabrata Ray, University  of Alabama, USA                              =
 =20
 Kazuyuki Saito, University of Aizu, Japan                               =
 =20
 Stanislav G. Sedukhin, University of Aizu, Japan                        =
 =20
 Timothy K. Shih, Tamkang University, Taiwan                             =
=20
 Jung-Pil Shin, University of Aizu, Japan                                =
 =20
 Masahide Sugiyama, University of Aizu, Japan                            =
 =20
 Xinmin Tian, Intel Corp., USA                                           =
 =20
 Jari Veijalainen, University of Jyvaskyla, Finland                      =
=20
 Lina Wang, Wuhan University, China                               =20
 Ying-Hong Wang, Tamkang University, Taiwan                              =
=20
 Werner Winiwarter, University of Vienna, Austria                        =
=20
 Bing Wu, Dublin Institute Technology, Ireland                           =
 =20
 Yang Xiao, University  of Memphis, USA                                  =
 =20
 Laurence T. Yang, St. Francis Xavier University , Canada                =
 =20
 Jeffrey Xu Yu, Chinese University of Hong Kong, China                   =
=20
 Qiangfu Zhao, University of Aizu, Japan                                 =
 =20
 Liang Zhang, Fudan University, China                                    =
=20
 Shensheng Zhang, Shanghai Jiao Tong University, China                   =
 =20
 Shuigeng Zhou, Fudan University, China                                  =
=20
 Xiaofang Zhou, University of Queensland, Australia                      =

 =20
--------------------  CIT2004  THE END   -----------------------
   =20
    
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<DIV><FONT size=3D2><!--StartFragment --><FONT size=3D3>&nbsp;With our =
apologize for=20
any duplicates;</FONT><BR><BR>--------------------&nbsp; CIT2004&nbsp; =
CALL FOR=20
PAPER&nbsp;&nbsp; -----------------------</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The 2004 International Conference on Computer and =
Information=20
Technology=20
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
(CIT2004)<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Wuhan, China, 14-16 September 2004, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<A=20
href=3D"http://smlsvr01.u-aizu.ac.jp/~cit2004/">http://smlsvr01.u-aizu.ac=
.jp/~cit2004/</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><FONT size=3D2>
<DIV><BR>CALL FOR PAPERS&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp; Information technology has been widely considered as =
one of=20
the most <BR>important emerging technologies for the 21st century, which =
has=20
been made <BR>great impact on people and society. In the recent years,=20
throughout <BR>society, the explosion of computer network and =
information=20
technology <BR>has been changing the way people work and live. This =
conference=20
serves as <BR>one of the major forums for researchers and practitioners =
from=20
academia <BR>and industry to discuss and exchange ideas and opinions, =
and=20
envision <BR>the future of computer and information technology. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp; In 2004, it will specially focus on graphics, =
multimedia, web=20
services, <BR>and wireless/mobile/pervasive computing in the related =
research,=20
<BR>development and application fields. Topics of particular interest=20
<BR>include, but are not limited to:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>1) Graphics and MultimediaGraphics systems, </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;shape abstraction modeling, <BR>&nbsp;geometric modeling,=20
<BR>&nbsp;rendering algorithms, <BR>&nbsp;virtual reality techniques,=20
<BR>&nbsp;volume visualization, <BR>&nbsp;animation techniques,=20
<BR>&nbsp;pattern recognition, <BR>&nbsp;image understanding,=20
<BR>&nbsp;interactive multimedia systems, <BR>&nbsp;networked =
multimedia,=20
<BR>&nbsp;human-computer interaction</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>2) Web-based Services <BR>&nbsp;<BR>&nbsp;Web data management,=20
<BR>&nbsp;web mining, <BR>&nbsp;semantic web, <BR>&nbsp;web services =
performance=20
and modeling, <BR>&nbsp;e-learning, <BR>&nbsp;XML structures,=20
<BR>&nbsp;grid-based services, <BR>&nbsp;grid middleware and tools,=20
<BR>&nbsp;distributed algorithms, <BR>&nbsp;peer-to-peer networks,=20
<BR>&nbsp;next generation internet technologies<BR>&nbsp;<BR>3)=20
wireless/mobile/pervasive Computing</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;Wireless computing systems, <BR>&nbsp;ad hoc networking =
service=20
discovery, <BR>&nbsp;wireless-phone computing, <BR>&nbsp;mobile =
communication,=20
<BR>&nbsp;portable devices and smart sensors, <BR>&nbsp;wearable =
computers and=20
PDAs, <BR>&nbsp;pervasive system concepts and architectures, =
<BR>&nbsp;pervasive=20
applications, <BR>&nbsp;infrastructure and networks of ubiquitous=20
computing<BR>&nbsp;<BR>4) Applications </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;Intelligent health care system, <BR>&nbsp;information =
retrieval,=20
<BR>&nbsp;knowledge management, <BR>&nbsp;information design, =
<BR>&nbsp;medical=20
information systems, <BR>&nbsp;database and application systems,=20
<BR>&nbsp;software agents, <BR>&nbsp;software engineering, =
<BR>&nbsp;natural=20
language processing<BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>IMPORTANT DATES</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;Paper submission =
due:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
20 April 2004<BR>&nbsp;Acceptance =
notification:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 5=20
June 2004<BR>&nbsp;Camera-ready=20
due:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; 25=20
June 2004<BR>&nbsp;Author=20
registration:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 20 =
July=20
2004</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>PUBLICATIONS&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The accepted papers have to be presented orally =
within=20
25 minutes <BR>included discussion at the conference and will be =
published in=20
<BR>proceedings of CIT2004 by IEEE Computer Society. The selected best=20
<BR>papers will be published in special issues of International =
Journals.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>BEST PAPER AWARDS</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The program committee will select one winner for =
the=20
Best Paper Award <BR>(all regular papers are eligible) and one winner =
for the=20
Best Student Paper <BR>Award (only the regular papers whose first author =
is a=20
full-time student <BR>are eligible). Each winner will be presented with =
a=20
certification and <BR>a cheque.&nbsp;SUBMISSION GUIDELINESSubmissions =
should=20
include an abstract, <BR>5-7 keywords, the e-mail address of the =
corresponding=20
author, and must not <BR>exceed 8 pages (IEEE format), including tables =
and=20
figures, with PDF, <BR>PostScript, or MS Word format.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submission of a paper should be regarded as an=20
undertaking that, should <BR>the paper be accepted, at least one of the =
authors=20
will attend the <BR>conference to present the work. Submissions to =
CIT2004 will=20
be conducted <BR>electronically on the CIT2004 website. Authors unable =
to access=20
e-mail <BR>may send 4 hard copies of their papers to:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;PC Co-Chair, Dr. Hui Wang<BR>&nbsp;School of Computer Science =
and=20
Engineering, <BR>&nbsp;University of Aizu,Ikki-machi, Aizu-Wakamatsu=20
City,<BR>&nbsp;Fukushima 965-8580, Japan<BR>&nbsp;<BR>&nbsp;Email: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:hwang@u-aizu.ac.jp">hwang@u-aizu.ac.jp</A> <BR>&nbsp;Tel: =

+81-242-37-2666<BR>&nbsp;Fax: +81-242-37-2728</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>CONFERENCE WEB SITE:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<BR>&nbsp;<A=20
href=3D"http://smlsvr01.u-aizu.ac.jp/~cit2004/">http://smlsvr01.u-aizu.ac=
.jp/~cit2004/</A><BR>&nbsp;<BR>HONORARY=20
GENERAL CHAIRS</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;Jingnan Liu, Wuhan University, China<BR>&nbsp;Tetsuhiko =
Ikegami,=20
University of Aizu, Japan</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>GENERAL CHAIRS</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;Daming Wei, University of Aizu, Japan<BR>&nbsp;Yanxiang He, =
Wuhan=20
University, China</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>ADVISORY COMMITTEE<BR>&nbsp;<BR>&nbsp;Chris Constantinou, Stanford=20
University, USA<BR>&nbsp;Chin-Chen Chang, National Chung Cheng =
University,=20
Taiwan<BR>&nbsp;Huowang Chen, Changsha Institute of Technology,=20
China<BR>&nbsp;Keqing He, Wuhan University, China<BR>&nbsp;Lishan Kang, =
Wuhan=20
University, China <BR>&nbsp;Kae Dal Kwack, Hanyang University,=20
Korea<BR>&nbsp;Deyi Li, Institute of China Electronic System =
Engineering,=20
China<BR>&nbsp;Sanli Li, Tsinghua University, China<BR>&nbsp;Bole Shi, =
Fudan=20
University, China<BR>&nbsp;Gengfeng Wu, Shanghai University,=20
China<BR>&nbsp;Guoqing Wu, Wuhan University, China<BR>&nbsp;Fumio =
Okuyama,=20
Suzuka University of Mecial Science, Japan<BR>&nbsp;Yoneo Yano, =
Tokushima=20
University, Japan&nbsp;<BR>&nbsp;<BR>PROGRAM COMMITTEE=20
CHAIRS<BR>&nbsp;<BR>&nbsp;Hui Wang, University of Aizu, =
Japan<BR>&nbsp;Zhiyong=20
Peng, Wuhan University, China <BR>&nbsp;Atsushi Kara, University of =
Aizu,=20
Japan</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>PUBLICITY CHAIRS</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;Qun Jin, Waseda University, Japan<BR>&nbsp;Qing Li, City =
University=20
of Hong Kong, China<BR>&nbsp;Yanchun Zhang, Victoria University, =
Australia</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>LOCAL ORGANISATION&nbsp; COMMITTEE<BR>&nbsp;<BR>&nbsp;Shi Ying, =
Wuhan=20
University, China<BR>&nbsp;Xusheng Yang, Wuhan University,=20
China<BR>&nbsp;Huaibei Zhou, Wuhan University, China<BR>&nbsp;Jiaheng =
Cao, Wuhan=20
University, China<BR>&nbsp;Xuhui Li, Wuhan University, China</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>PROGRAM COMMITTEE</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;Saeid Belkasim, Georgia State University,=20
USA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Subhash Bhalla, University of Aizu,=20
Japan&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Wenxi Chen, University of Aizu,=20
Japan&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Zixue Cheng, University of Aizu,=20
Japan&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Michael Cohen, University of Aizu,=20
Japan&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Brian d'Auriol, University of Texas at EP,=20
USA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Youdong Ding, Shanghai University,=20
China&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Zuxiang Fang, Fudan University,=20
China&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Jihong Guan, Wuhan University,=20
China&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Guoqing Gu, East China Normal University,=20
China&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Ning Gu, Fudan University,=20
China&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Minyi Guo, University of Aizu,=20
Japan&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Khairuddin Hashim, Tun Abdul Razak University,=20
Malaysia&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Toshihiro Hayashi, Saga University,=20
Japan&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Aiguo He, University of Aizu,=20
Japan&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Tingting He, Huazhong Normal University,=20
China&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Susantha Herath, St. Cloud State University,=20
USA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Hai Jin, Huazhong University of Science and Technology,=20
China&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Hua Hu, Hangzhou Institute of Commerce,=20
China&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Jicheng Hu, Wuhan University,=20
China&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Xiaohua Hu, Drexel University,=20
USA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Jie Huang, University of Aizu,=20
Japan&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Rajgopal Kannan, Louisiana State University,=20
USA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Keqin Li, State University of New York,=20
USA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Minglu Li, Shanghai Jiao Tong University,=20
China&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Vitaliy Kluev, University of Aizu,=20
Japan&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Yiwen Liang, Wuhan University,=20
China&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Yong Liu, University of Aizu,=20
Japan&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Zhen Liu, Nagasaki Institute of Applied Science,=20
Japan&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Jianhua Ma, Hosei University,=20
Japan&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;William L. Martens, McGill University,=20
Canada&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Geyong Min, University of Bradford,=20
UK&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Nikolay N. Mirenkov, University of Aizu,=20
Japan&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Mukesh Mohania, IBM India Res Lab,=20
India&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Shoji Nishimura, Waseda University,=20
Japan&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Fumio Okuyama, Suzuka University of Medical Science,=20
Japan&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Incheon Paik, University of Aizu,=20
Japan&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Yi Pan, Georgia State University ,=20
USA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Lim Ee Peng, Nanyang Technological University ,=20
Singapore&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Sibabrata Ray, University&nbsp; of Alabama,=20
USA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Kazuyuki Saito, University of Aizu,=20
Japan&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Stanislav G. Sedukhin, University of Aizu,=20
Japan&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Timothy K. Shih, Tamkang University,=20
Taiwan&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Jung-Pil Shin, University of Aizu,=20
Japan&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Masahide Sugiyama, University of Aizu,=20
Japan&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Xinmin Tian, Intel Corp.,=20
USA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Jari Veijalainen, University of Jyvaskyla,=20
Finland&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Lina Wang, Wuhan University,=20
China&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Ying-Hong Wang, Tamkang University,=20
Taiwan&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Werner Winiwarter, University of Vienna,=20
Austria&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Bing Wu, Dublin Institute Technology,=20
Ireland&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Yang Xiao, University&nbsp; of Memphis,=20
USA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Laurence T. Yang, St. Francis Xavier University ,=20
Canada&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Jeffrey Xu Yu, Chinese University of Hong Kong,=20
China&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Qiangfu Zhao, University of Aizu,=20
Japan&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Liang Zhang, Fudan University,=20
China&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Shensheng Zhang, Shanghai Jiao Tong University,=20
China&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Shuigeng Zhou, Fudan University,=20
China&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;Xiaofang Zhou, University of Queensland, Australia&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp; <BR>--------------------&nbsp; CIT2004&nbsp; THE =
END&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
-----------------------<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00BB_01C3EFF7.D0F8C230--


_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
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To: Mitsuyuki Hatanaka <hatanaka@av.crl.sony.co.jp>,
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Subject: [AVT] Signalling comments on draft-hatanaka-avt-atrac-family-00.txt
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Hi Hatanaka and Matthew,

I have looked at the draft and will divide the comments into separate 
mails as they have different importance's. The simplification looks 
promising. This mails discuss the rather major signalling problem.

There is need to resolve how the setup signalling for this payload 
format will work. The normal model is that one defines a MIME type, 
potentially with parameters that represents the codec over the defined 
payload format. If one has configuration information that needs to be 
conveyed these are included as MIME parameters that then is mapped into 
the description format, like the a=fmtp line in SDP. You will need to do 
the same. However as you have defined one payload format for a family of 
codecs there is importance that the you ensure that it can conveyed 
exactly what codec version, and its necessary parameters. I see two main 
branch of solutions, either use separate MIME types for each codec 
(probably more suitable if the number of codecs are few) or use a 
parameter that declares what codec is to be used. The first alternative 
is also more appropriate if the configuration information is different 
between the codecs.

Please look also at my recent mails regarding channel information. To my 
understanding some of the ATRAC codecs support multi-channel content, 
thus also you will have these considerations.

Please look at RFC 3267 or RFC 3558 for how it can look when defining 
the MIME parameter list. Please note that most of these parameters are 
in regards to the payload format configuration. For a proposal 
containing more codec related parameters, please look at 
draft-ietf-avt-rtp-h264-03.txt

I am sorry that I can't be more specific, however my knowledge of the 
ATRAC codec is very limited. However if you want help you are welcome to 
contact us chairs.

Cheers


Magnus Westerlund 

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
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Subject: [AVT] Editorial and formatting comments on draft-hatanaka-avt-rtp-atrac-family-00.txt
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Dear Hatanaka and Matthew,

I have found a number of editorial comments on the draft. I do CC the 
list because a number of them is occurring regularly, and I therefore by 
presenting them to all people will reduce the reoccurrence of them.

1. The text in relation to RFC 2119, should be placed early, but having 
it on the first page is to early. The recommended place would be in a 
"definitions" or "conventions used in this document" section, which is 
located prior or directly after the introduction chapter.

2. Please ensure that the document gets the correct page breaks and page 
length. This is part of the ID-Nits: http://www.ietf.org/ID-nits.html

3. Please ensure that chapter headings are clearly visible. At least 2.2 
has been wrapped into the text.

4. The usage of the normative language "MUST, MAY, SHOULD, etc." is 
lacking. It should not be overdone, however when interoperability needs 
to be ensured, like for how the number of frames field shall be 
interpreted, the use is motivated. There are also other places where 
improvements can be done.

5. The reference list is not split into normative and informative parts 
as is required since a while. Also reference 2 is not used.

6. The IPR statement is missing. Please add the appropriate statements 
from section 10.4 of RFC 2026.

7. The RTP header section. The only thing a payload format needs to care 
about in relation to the RTP header is the three fields, Timestamp, 
Marker bit, and payload type. The rest of the RTP header is used as 
defined by RFC 3550 and any profile. For example defining that that the 
X bit shall be set to 0 is not for a RTP payload format to do. There 
might be other mechanisms that use the header extension mechanism.

Best Regards

Magnus Westerlund 

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com



This communication is confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s). Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you believe this message has been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by replying to this transmission and delete the message without disclosing it. Thank you.

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_______________________________________________
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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Dear Hatanaka and Matthew,

This email contains the last of my comments, which are of a technical 
nature.

1. I would like to see some more information about the codecs in the 
beginning of the draft. Especially properties like, possible sampling 
frequency, multi-channel support, frame sizes, etc. which effects the 
payload design.

2. The Frame Offset fields is not sufficiently defined. I don't 
understand how you can determine the TS offset for each frame in the 
packet using only this field. Also how does it work when there are more 
than 2 frames present in the same RTP payload?

3. What is the purpose of the frameID field? I am not certain I 
understand how it works, please elaborate on how it works and what 
purpose if fulfils.

4. The security section will need more work. I think there is need to 
discuss also authentication and integrity protection. Also congestion 
control might need some special consideration, due to redundancy 
transmission and possibility to vary bit-rate.

Best Regards

Magnus Westerlund 

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
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From exim@www1.ietf.org  Tue Feb 10 09:30:43 2004
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From: "Ash, Gerald R (Jerry), ALABS" <gash@att.com>
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Curtis,

> > Please review and comment on 'Protocol Extensions for ECRTP over =
MPLS'
> > =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protoco=
l-00.txt=20
> > The protocol extensions enable the use of MPLS to route enhanced =
compressed=20
> > RTP (ECRTP) compressed packets over an MPLS LSP without=20
> > compression/decompression cycles at each router.
> >=20
> > The proposed extensions are based on the requirements documented in=20
> > 'Requirements for ECRTP over MPLS'=20
> > =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-reqs-01=
.txt.
> >=20
> > Thanks,
> > Jerry

> Jerry,
>=20
> This looks to be a very good direction to go in.

Thanks Curtis!

> In your encapsulations you should make sure to avoid any values in the
> first byte that could be mistaken as IPv4 or IPv6 or any of the
> encapsulations being worked on by those working on VPN and PW.  See
> "The PWE3 Control Word", Jonathan Stein, 22-Oct-02,
> draft-stein-pwe3-controlword-00.txt, for some early discussion on
> that.  Note though that "Payload Type" is something that many
> providers require so that multipath can be used on IP traffic which
> constitutes the majority of traffic yet reordering is avoided for
> traffic which cannot be split based on what appears to be an IP header
> and the IP src/dst pair.
>=20
> It might be best to reserve a single fixed first byte for the "Packet
> Type" (and I suggest you make up a name for this shim such as
> SCID_Packet_Type) and use the second byte for the packet types that
> you have defined.  Just as you have to get numbers for SCID_Request
> Object and Header_Compression_Reply Object from IANA, you'll have to
> coordinate with others over this number space, though it is less clear
> if IANA is the authority on this quite yet.

All good suggestions, will incorporate in the next Rev.

Thanks a lot for your careful review,
Jerry

_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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Subject: [AVT] draft-ietf-avt-uncomp-video-05.txt (Last Call announcement)
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Dear AVTers, Ladan,

I have a couple of comments/questions about draft-ietf-avt-uncomp-video-05.txt

Firstly the thing is globably good and sound, I like it.


In 4.3 I have failed to understand how it is possible that YUV 4.2.0 progressive at 10 bits per sample
can fit in a 5 octet pgroup (would it be possible that this would be 15 octet instead ?)

[I confess I did not check all the pgroup sizes exhaustively]

In 8. I have found one sentence where my english parser complains:
"It is important to be note that uncompressed video can have immense..."


best regards,



Philippe Gentric
Chief Architect
Philips Software
philippe.gentric@philips.com
http://www.software.philips.com



_______________________________________________
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From: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
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 ling problem
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Hi Ross,

I don't think that is a good solution due to that if one is only capable 
of handling mono playback, then one might refuse to use this 
functionality, although one would in fact be able to support it. 
Therefore it seems rather important to be able to downgrade a channel 
setup from maximum to a small set. For a more critical example one might 
not support 6+1 channel, however one is interested of using 2 channels.

Secondly, I don't know if the set of possible channels is obvious what 
requires less capability between all possible configuration. Is a 
quadraphonic setup less or more than a L+R, Center and Surround setup? 
Having explicit declaration of all used channel modes avoid these problems.

Cheers

Magnus

Ross Finlayson wrote:

>It seems to me that for any codec that carries channel etc. parameters 
>inband - and allows these parameters to change 'on the fly' - there is
>an 
>implicit assumption that each receiver should be able to handle all 
>possible settings of these inband parameters.  So, given this, your
>first 
>proposed solution seems to make the most sense: Declare the AMR-WB+ RTP 
>payload type to be for stereo, even though all frames within such a
>stream 
>might actually turn out to be mono.
>
>	Ross.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Audio/Video Transport Working Group
>avt@ietf.org
>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt
>
>  
>

-- 

Magnus Westerlund 

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com



This communication is confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s). Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you believe this message has been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by replying to this transmission and delete the message without disclosing it. Thank you.

E-mail including attachments is susceptible to data corruption, interruption, unauthorized amendment, tampering and viruses, and we only send and receive e-mails on the basis that we are not liable for any such corruption, interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or any consequences thereof.


_______________________________________________
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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In-Reply-To: <OFBCB8BE79.85449CD5-ONC1256E36.0045E4FB-C1256E36.004FE0F3@diamond.philips.com>
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From: Ladan Gharai <ladan@isi.edu>
Subject: Re: [AVT] draft-ietf-avt-uncomp-video-05.txt (Last Call announcement)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:25:22 -0500
To: philippe.gentric@philips.com
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Hello Philippe:

Thank you for commenting on the draft. Please see comments inline.

On Feb 10, 2004, at 9:32 AM, philippe.gentric@philips.com wrote:

>
> Dear AVTers, Ladan,
>
> I have a couple of comments/questions about 
> draft-ietf-avt-uncomp-video-05.txt
>
> Firstly the thing is globably good and sound, I like it.
>
>
> In 4.3 I have failed to understand how it is possible that YUV 4.2.0 
> progressive at 10 bits per sample
> can fit in a 5 octet pgroup (would it be possible that this would be 
> 15 octet instead ?)

    You are absolutely correct, thank you for catching this - it is a 15 
octet pgroup.
>
> [I confess I did not check all the pgroup sizes exhaustively]
>
> In 8. I have found one sentence where my english parser complains:
> "It is important to be note that uncompressed video can have 
> immense..."

    will fix.
>
>
> best regards,
>
>
>
> Philippe Gentric
> Chief Architect
> Philips Software
> philippe.gentric@philips.com
> http://www.software.philips.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Audio/Video Transport Working Group
> avt@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt
>


_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



From exim@www1.ietf.org  Tue Feb 10 13:17:35 2004
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From: a a <yourf@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [AVT] RE: I-D ACTION:draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt
To: "Ash, Gerald R \(Jerry\), ALABS" <gash@att.com>, avt@ietf.org
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Hi,

It looks pretty good. I have a question rather than a
comment:

In this draft we are trying to add some new objects to
the base RSVP-TE. RSVP or RSVP-TE so far have been
kept immune from the applications that could make use
of it. So, why are we planning to add something like
"VoIP-CallIds" instead of some generic name or
identifier that could be used by different
applications in different contexts? The L3PID anyway
would define the kind of the payload being carried and
applications would be free to interpret that "generic
identifier" in the fashion they want. (Pls. excuse me
if I'm not privy to some information or earlier
discussions).

Today we have SIP (in VoIP networks) and that's why
usage of VoIP-CallIds may be justified in some sense
but tomorrow there could be some other protocol (that
may use some other identifier instead of callId) and
hence we may have to accomodate that as well.

The other minor comments that I have are:
* Though the draft states that packet type field would
be prepended to the "packet formats" defined in ECRTP
(RFC3545), a pictoral representation would be useful.

* Most of the SIP RFCs and SIP drafts have associated
example "Call Flows" with DETAILED message contents -
either in separate drafts/RFCs or in Appendix sections
to the main RFC/drafts. Can we do something similar
for this draft as well? (It has some message seuqence
shown but it's not that detailed). It would be useful
to see the data plane encodings as well (with label
stacks, packet types and compressed payloads etc.).

Thanks.




--- "Ash, Gerald R (Jerry), ALABS" <gash@att.com>
wrote:
> All,
> 
> Please review and comment on 'Protocol Extensions
> for ECRTP over MPLS'
>
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt.
>  The protocol extensions enable the use of MPLS to
> route enhanced compressed RTP (ECRTP) compressed
> packets over an MPLS LSP without
> compression/decompression cycles at each router.
> 
> The proposed extensions are based on the
> requirements documented in 'Requirements for ECRTP
> over MPLS'
>
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-reqs-01.txt.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jerry
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> [mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org]
> Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 3:43 PM
> Subject: I-D
> ACTION:draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt
> 
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
> Internet-Drafts directories.
> 
> 
> 	Title		: Protocol Extensions for ECRTP over MPLS
> 	Author(s)	: J. Ash
> 	Filename	:
> draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt
> 	Pages		: 0
> 	Date		: 2004-2-5
> 	
> VoIP typically uses the encapsulation
> voice/RTP/UDP/IP. When MPLS labels 
> are added, this becomes
> voice/RTP/UDP/IP/MPLS-labels. For an MPLS VPN, 
> the packet header is at least 48 bytes, while the
> voice payload is often 
> no more than 30 bytes, for example. VoIP header
> compression can 
> significantly reduce the VoIP overhead through
> various compression 
> mechanisms, such as enhanced compressed RTP (ECRTP).
> We consider using 
> MPLS to route ECRTP compressed packets over an MPLS
> LSP without 
> compression/decompression cycles at each router.
> Such an ECRTP over MPLS 
> capability can increase the bandwidth efficiency as
> well as processing 
> scalability of the maximum number of simultaneous
> VoIP flows that use 
> header compression at each router.  In this draft we
> propose to use 
> RSVP-TE extensions to signal the header compression
> context and other 
> control messages between the ingress and egress LSR.
>  We re-use the 
> methods in ECRTP to determine the context.
> 
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Audio/Video Transport Working Group
> avt@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt


__________________________________
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_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



From exim@www1.ietf.org  Tue Feb 10 15:05:36 2004
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Subject: Re: [AVT] RE: I-D ACTION:draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt
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--- a a <yourf@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> It looks pretty good. I have a question rather than
> a
> comment:
> 
> In this draft we are trying to add some new objects
> to
> the base RSVP-TE. RSVP or RSVP-TE so far have been
> kept immune from the applications that could make
> use
> of it. So, why are we planning to add something like
> "VoIP-CallIds" instead of some generic name or
> identifier that could be used by different
> applications in different contexts? The L3PID anyway
> would define the kind of the payload being carried
> and
> applications would be free to interpret that
> "generic
> identifier" in the fashion they want. (Pls. excuse
> me
> if I'm not privy to some information or earlier
> discussions).
> 
> Today we have SIP (in VoIP networks) and that's why
> usage of VoIP-CallIds may be justified in some sense
> but tomorrow there could be some other protocol
> (that
> may use some other identifier instead of callId) and
> hence we may have to accomodate that as well.
> 
> The other minor comments that I have are:
> * Though the draft states that packet type field
> would
> be prepended to the "packet formats" defined in
> ECRTP
> (RFC3545), a pictoral representation would be
> useful.
> 
> * Most of the SIP RFCs and SIP drafts have
> associated
> example "Call Flows" with DETAILED message contents
> -
> either in separate drafts/RFCs or in Appendix
> sections
> to the main RFC/drafts. Can we do something similar
> for this draft as well? (It has some message
> seuqence
> shown but it's not that detailed). It would be
> useful
> to see the data plane encodings as well (with label
> stacks, packet types and compressed payloads etc.).
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- "Ash, Gerald R (Jerry), ALABS" <gash@att.com>
> wrote:
> > All,
> > 
> > Please review and comment on 'Protocol Extensions
> > for ECRTP over MPLS'
> >
>
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt.
> >  The protocol extensions enable the use of MPLS to
> > route enhanced compressed RTP (ECRTP) compressed
> > packets over an MPLS LSP without
> > compression/decompression cycles at each router.
> > 
> > The proposed extensions are based on the
> > requirements documented in 'Requirements for ECRTP
> > over MPLS'
> >
>
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-reqs-01.txt.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Jerry
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > [mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 3:43 PM
> > Subject: I-D
> >
> ACTION:draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt
> > 
> > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
> > Internet-Drafts directories.
> > 
> > 
> > 	Title		: Protocol Extensions for ECRTP over MPLS
> > 	Author(s)	: J. Ash
> > 	Filename	:
> > draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt
> > 	Pages		: 0
> > 	Date		: 2004-2-5
> > 	
> > VoIP typically uses the encapsulation
> > voice/RTP/UDP/IP. When MPLS labels 
> > are added, this becomes
> > voice/RTP/UDP/IP/MPLS-labels. For an MPLS VPN, 
> > the packet header is at least 48 bytes, while the
> > voice payload is often 
> > no more than 30 bytes, for example. VoIP header
> > compression can 
> > significantly reduce the VoIP overhead through
> > various compression 
> > mechanisms, such as enhanced compressed RTP
> (ECRTP).
> > We consider using 
> > MPLS to route ECRTP compressed packets over an
> MPLS
> > LSP without 
> > compression/decompression cycles at each router.
> > Such an ECRTP over MPLS 
> > capability can increase the bandwidth efficiency
> as
> > well as processing 
> > scalability of the maximum number of simultaneous
> > VoIP flows that use 
> > header compression at each router.  In this draft
> we
> > propose to use 
> > RSVP-TE extensions to signal the header
> compression
> > context and other 
> > control messages between the ingress and egress
> LSR.
> >  We re-use the 
> > methods in ECRTP to determine the context.
> > 
> > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> >
>
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt.
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Audio/Video Transport Working Group
> > avt@ietf.org
> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt
> 
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing
> online.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html

_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: A More Loss-Tolerant RTP Payload Format for MP3 Audio
	Author(s)	: R. Finlayson
	Filename	: draft-ietf-avt-rfc3119bis-02.txt
	Pages		: 0
	Date		: 2004-2-10
	
This document describes a RTP (Real-Time Protocol) payload format for
transporting MPEG (Moving Picture Experts Group) 1 or 2, layer III
audio (commonly known as 'MP3').  This format is an alternative to
that described in RFC 2250, and performs better if there is packet
loss.

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From exim@www1.ietf.org  Tue Feb 10 18:34:32 2004
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 15:29:14 -0800
To: avt@ietf.org
From: Ross Finlayson <finlayson@live.com>
Subject: Re: [AVT] The RTP payload format for multichannel codecs's
  signal ling problem
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>>It seems to me that for any codec that carries channel etc. parameters 
>>inband - and allows these parameters to change 'on the fly' - there is
>>an implicit assumption that each receiver should be able to handle all 
>>possible settings of these inband parameters.  So, given this, your
>>first proposed solution seems to make the most sense: Declare the AMR-WB+ 
>>RTP payload type to be for stereo, even though all frames within such a
>>stream might actually turn out to be mono.
>I don't think that is a good solution due to that if one is only capable 
>of handling mono playback, then one might refuse to use this 
>functionality, although one would in fact be able to support it. Therefore 
>it seems rather important to be able to downgrade a channel setup from 
>maximum to a small set. For a more critical example one might not support 
>6+1 channel, however one is interested of using 2 channels.
>
>Secondly, I don't know if the set of possible channels is obvious what 
>requires less capability between all possible configuration. Is a 
>quadraphonic setup less or more than a L+R, Center and Surround setup? 
>Having explicit declaration of all used channel modes avoid these problems.

Magnus,

That's true - however, explicitly declaring (in the SDP) which channel 
modes are intended to be used leads to the question of what should a 
receiver do if it later receives a stream with inband parameters that 
violate the modes that were declared earlier.  E.g., if it was declared 
that only mono should be sent, then what should a receiver do if it later 
ends up receiving stereo?

Note, of course, that this is only an issue for those payload formats where 
channel parameters are carried inband.  If you're going to allow - for such 
payload formats - less than the complete channel functionality to be 
declared in advance, then the payload format specification needs to say 
*something* about what a receiver should do it it receives data with 
different functionality.  Even saying "the receivers actions are undefined" 
in this case is better than saying nothing :-)

         Ross.






_______________________________________________
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avt@ietf.org
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Subject: RE: [AVT] RE: I-D ACTION:draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt
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From: "Ash, Gerald R (Jerry), ALABS" <gash@att.com>
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Dear a a,

> It looks pretty good.=20

Thanks.

> I have a question rather than a comment:
> In this draft we are trying to add some new objects to
> the base RSVP-TE. RSVP or RSVP-TE so far have been
> kept immune from the applications that could make use
> of it. So, why are we planning to add something like
> "VoIP-CallIds" instead of some generic name or
> identifier that could be used by different
> applications in different contexts? The L3PID anyway
> would define the kind of the payload being carried and
> applications would be free to interpret that "generic
> identifier" in the fashion they want. (Pls. excuse me
> if I'm not privy to some information or earlier
> discussions).

This is a good comment.  I think a generic name is appropriate such that =
the protocol is applicable to any real-time ECRTP flow over MPLS.  We'll =
generalize that in the next Rev.

> Today we have SIP (in VoIP networks) and that's why
> usage of VoIP-CallIds may be justified in some sense
> but tomorrow there could be some other protocol (that
> may use some other identifier instead of callId) and
> hence we may have to accommodate that as well.

Good point.  Needs to be generalized.
=20
> The other minor comments that I have are:
> * Though the draft states that packet type field would
> be prepended to the "packet formats" defined in ECRTP
> (RFC3545), a pictorial representation would be useful.

OK.
=20
> * Most of the SIP RFCs and SIP drafts have associated
> example "Call Flows" with DETAILED message contents -
> either in separate drafts/RFCs or in Appendix sections
> to the main RFC/drafts. Can we do something similar
> for this draft as well? (It has some message sequence
> shown but it's not that detailed). It would be useful
> to see the data plane encodings as well (with label
> stacks, packet types and compressed payloads etc.).

As you suggest, I think a separate draft (or perhaps an Appendix) would =
be appropriate for detailed message flows.

Thanks a lot for your review, comments, and suggestions.
Jerry

> --- "Ash, Gerald R (Jerry), ALABS" <gash@att.com>
> wrote:
> > All,
> >=20
> > Please review and comment on 'Protocol Extensions for ECRTP over =
MPLS'
> > =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protoco=
l-00.txt.
> > The protocol extensions enable the use of MPLS to
> > route enhanced compressed RTP (ECRTP) compressed packets over an =
MPLS LSP without
> > compression/decompression cycles at each router.
> >=20
> > The proposed extensions are based on the
> > requirements documented in 'Requirements for ECRTP over MPLS'
> =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-reqs-01=
.txt.
> >=20
> > Thanks,
> > Jerry

_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 13:45:03 +0000
From: Colin Perkins <csp@csperkins.org>
To: "Ash, Gerald R (Jerry), ALABS" <gash@att.com>
Cc: avt@ietf.org, mpls@UU.NET, gash@att.com
Subject: Re: [AVT] RE: I-D
 ACTION:draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt
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Folks,

I'm happy that there is interest in this protocol, however I would like to
remind folks that we have not yet agreed on the requirements documents, or
decided the appropriate home for this work. At the risk of delaying this
work for a few weeks, could we first make sure there is consensus that the
requirements are appropriate, before trying to build a protocol that
addresses them?

Colin



--> "Ash, Gerald R (Jerry), ALABS" <gash@att.com> writes:
> All,
> 
> Please review and comment on 'Protocol Extensions for ECRTP over MPLS'
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt.
>  The protocol extensions enable the use of MPLS to route enhanced
>  compressed RTP (ECRTP) compressed packets over an MPLS LSP without
>  compression/decompression cycles at each router.
> 
> The proposed extensions are based on the requirements documented in
> 'Requirements for ECRTP over MPLS'
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-reqs-01.txt.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jerry
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org [mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org]
> Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 3:43 PM
> Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt
> 
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> 
> 
> 	Title		: Protocol Extensions for ECRTP over MPLS
> 	Author(s)	: J. Ash
> 	Filename	: draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt
> 	Pages		: 0
> 	Date		: 2004-2-5
> 	
> VoIP typically uses the encapsulation voice/RTP/UDP/IP. When MPLS labels 
> are added, this becomes voice/RTP/UDP/IP/MPLS-labels. For an MPLS VPN, 
> the packet header is at least 48 bytes, while the voice payload is often 
> no more than 30 bytes, for example. VoIP header compression can 
> significantly reduce the VoIP overhead through various compression 
> mechanisms, such as enhanced compressed RTP (ECRTP). We consider using 
> MPLS to route ECRTP compressed packets over an MPLS LSP without 
> compression/decompression cycles at each router. Such an ECRTP over MPLS 
> capability can increase the bandwidth efficiency as well as processing 
> scalability of the maximum number of simultaneous VoIP flows that use 
> header compression at each router.  In this draft we propose to use 
> RSVP-TE extensions to signal the header compression context and other 
> control messages between the ingress and egress LSR.  We re-use the 
> methods in ECRTP to determine the context.
> 
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Audio/Video Transport Working Group
> avt@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt


-- 
Colin Perkins
http://csperkins.org/

_______________________________________________
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To: Ladan Gharai <ladan@isi.edu>
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Subject: Re: [AVT] New Draft: RTP Profile for TCP Friendly Rate Control
References: <4A55F4D4-5A9D-11D8-89ED-000A95C47376@isi.edu>
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It should be possible to implement a sender based variant of TFRC using 
the existing set of RTP protocol .  The RTT can be deduced from the RTCP 
RR at the sender, as can a loss event mapping.  A loss event is defined 
by TFRC as one or more packet losses in a single RTT.  If RTCP RRs are 
received once per RTT, then the loss event rate can be reasonably 
deduced using the difference in the RTCP RR cumulative loss field 
between consecuative RTCP RRs.

Ladan Gharai wrote:

> Dear AVT'ers:
>
> I have just submitted a new draft draft-gharai-avt-tfrc-profile-00.txt 
> to the Internet Drafts editor. The draft is also available on line at 
> http://www.east.isi.edu/projects/MACC/tfrc-profile.txt
>
> This is a preliminary draft for a RTP profile for TFRC,  "RTP/AVPCC". 
> Please read and comment on the draft, in particular on the following 
> two items:
>
> (I)     A TFRC receiver depends on  receiving  estimates of the 
> current RTT and the send time of each RTP packet, in order to compute 
> its loss event rate.
>         A simplistic approach to providing this information to the 
> receiver is to add fixed fields to the RTP data header. This approach 
> has a number of draw backs: (1) current implementations may not be 
> able to parse such packets; (2) additional overhead of 8 octets in 
> each data packet.
>        Ideally, a TFRC receiver would be able to make do with the 
> standard RTP time stamp (which denotes sampling or presentation time) 
> - and would be able to compute the RTT itself (with the added bonus of 
> also providing it to the TFRC sender).
>        This raises two questions: (1) does the RTP time stamp suffice 
> for loss event calculations? and (2) is it possible to have the 
> receiver compute RTTs?
>
>
> (II)      A  TFRC sender requires feedback at least once per RTT.  
> Depending on the data rate of a flow and the RTT, this TFRC 
> requirement may result in violation of RTCPs minimum interval and 
> bandwidth restrictions/recommendations. According to RFC3550  a 
> profile MAY specify control traffic bandwidth as a separate session 
> parameter. Is there a similar provision for profiles where the scaled 
> minimum RTCP interval does not suffice? (i.e. where does the profile 
> state that it cannot abide by the recommended minimum RTCP  interval?)
>
> Ladan Gharai
> http://www.east.isi.edu/~ladan
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Audio/Video Transport Working Group
> avt@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt




_______________________________________________
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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--0-1771124792-1076573608=:37931
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Dear sir/madam,
Actually I am working on a mutimedia video conferencing.But I am not able to synchronize audio and video when transmitting it.Kindly suggest me any algorithm for lip synchronization so that I can implement it into C Or C++ Or VC++.
                          I need ur help kindly help me.
 


Shailendra Singh

---------------------------------
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--0-1771124792-1076573608=:37931
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<DIV>Dear sir/madam,</DIV>
<DIV>Actually I am working on a mutimedia video conferencing.But I am not able to synchronize audio and video when transmitting it.Kindly suggest me any algorithm for lip synchronization so that I can implement it into C Or C++ Or VC++.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I need ur help kindly help me.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR><BR>Shailendra Singh<p><hr SIZE=1>
Do you Yahoo!?<br>
Yahoo! Finance: <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=22055/*http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html">Get your refund fast by filing online</a>
--0-1771124792-1076573608=:37931--

_______________________________________________
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



From exim@www1.ietf.org  Thu Feb 12 19:14:47 2004
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Reply-to: Randell Jesup <rjesup@wgate.com>
To: shailendra singh <mca_shail@yahoo.com>
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Subject: Re: [AVT] answer to my query
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shailendra singh <mca_shail@yahoo.com> writes:
>Actually I am working on a mutimedia video conferencing.But I am not
>able to synchronize audio and video when transmitting it.Kindly suggest
>me any algorithm for lip synchronization so that I can implement it into
>C Or C++ Or VC++.

        If you're using RTP, you'll need to use the RTCP SR messages to
correlate the RTP timestamps of the two streams.  Once you know the
correlation, you can synchronize properly (how you decide to do that is up
to you and depends on too many things to go into here).  Until you have
SR's from both, you'll need to make assumptions about the timestamp
correlation.

        If you're not using RTP, then this really isn't the right place
to ask.

-- 
Randell Jesup, Worldgate Communications, ex-Scala, ex-Amiga OS team
rjesup@wgate.com
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
 deserve neither liberty nor safety." 
              -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.


_______________________________________________
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Thread-Topic: Clearmode in context of ISDN7 kHz calls 
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Hi all,

I have a question with regard to the "RTP payload format for a 64 kbit/s =
transparent call" draft. It is said that Clearmode can be used to =
transfer ISDN 7 kHz voice streams. However payload type 9 is also =
supposed to transfer G722 audio streams.=20

If this is correct, what is the criteria for selecting clearmode =
(dynamic PT) or the static payload type 9?

Thanks,

Regards=20

S=E9bastien Garcin
France T=E9l=E9com R&D  =20

_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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From: Kreuter Ruediger <ruediger.kreuter@siemens.com>
To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=27GARCIN_S=E9bastien_FTRD/DAC/ISS=27?=
	 <sebastien.garcin@francetelecom.com>,
        zzx-IETF-AVT <avt@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [AVT] Clearmode in context of ISDN7 kHz calls
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:20:56 +0100
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H S=E9basttien,

if both ends of a RTP connection, i.e. e.g. both VoIP media gateways,=20
support G.722, then you can use this Codec for ISDN 7kHz voice trunks
(using RTP PT=3D9) .
Unfortunately many Gateways in the field do not support G.722. In that
case Clearmode is the choice to be used (RTP PT<>9). And Clearmode must
be supported anyway for ISDN data.

Best regards
R=FCdiger Kreuter
Siemens AG
Corporate Technology

-----Original Message-----
From: GARCIN S=E9bastien FTRD/DAC/ISS
[mailto:sebastien.garcin@francetelecom.com]=20
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 10:56 AM
To: zzx-IETF-AVT
Subject: [AVT] Clearmode in context of ISDN7 kHz calls



Hi all,

I have a question with regard to the "RTP payload format for a 64 =
kbit/s
transparent call" draft. It is said that Clearmode can be used to =
transfer
ISDN 7 kHz voice streams. However payload type 9 is also supposed to
transfer G722 audio streams.=20

If this is correct, what is the criteria for selecting clearmode =
(dynamic
PT) or the static payload type 9?

Thanks,

Regards=20

S=E9bastien Garcin
France T=E9l=E9com R&D  =20

_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt

_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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From: Belling Thomas <thomas.belling@siemens.com>
To: "'avt@ietf.org'" <avt@ietf.org>
Cc: Oestreich Stefan <stefan.oestreich@siemens.com>
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Subject: [AVT] Size of RTCP packets using IPv6
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Hi all,


within the 3GPP there were some discussions about realistic sizes of =
RTCP compound packets in an IPv6 Network.

Apart from the IPv6/UDP header each packet contains at least a SR (52 =
bytes) or RR (32 bytes), plus SDES package including a CNAME is also =
mandated in each compound RTCP package. This includes a header of fixed =
size (6 bytes), plus a "host" or "user@host" part of variable size..

The last part is tricky. According to RFC 1132 (which was written for =
IPv4, not taking into account the larger IPv6 address space), "Host =
software MUST handle host names of up to 63 characters and SHOULD =
handle host names of up to 255 characters." Expressing a full IPv6 =
address in ASCI notation also requires up to 39 characters. I assume =
one should expect this part to be at least around 100 bytes. Other =
opinions?

There were also some ideas to restrict the recommended size of compound =
RTCP packets to around 90 bytes (exluding IP/UDP), and optimise =
transmission for such a size.
I doubt this is a good idea:
*	My guess of a "minimum" size already exceeds this value.
*	translators and mixers should combine RTCP packets
*	A host should send only one RTCP compound packet by report interval, =
because this is assumed in the bandwidth/frequency algorithms for =
calculating the RTCP sending times. This implies the host should =
combine any information it needs to send in this period within one =
compoung packet.
*	Host may therefore need to combine several sender and receiver =
reports (e.g. if multiple senders/receivers are involved, or multiple =
media streams per host), or may need to add mandatory RTCP extension =
packets defined in RTP profiles.
Do you agree?


Acoording to your experience, what are realsitic sizes of RTCP packets =
with IPv6?


Thank you for your help.

Thomas Belling





----------------------------------
Dr. Thomas Belling
Siemens AG          =20
Sankt-Martin-Str. 76=20
D-81541 M=FCnchen Germany
ICM N PG SP ST N1
MCH M 34 307
Tel     +49 89 636 75207
Fax     +49 89 636 75577
Mobile  +49 172 2974678
Email   Thomas.Belling@siemens.com




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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2657.73">
<TITLE>Size of RTCP packets using IPv6</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hi all,</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">within the 3GPP there were some =
discussions about realistic sizes of RTCP compound packets in an IPv6 =
Network.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Apart from the IPv6/UDP header each =
packet contains at least a SR (52 bytes) or RR (32 bytes), plus</FONT> =
<FONT FACE=3D"Arial">SDES package including a CNAME is also mandated in =
each compound RTCP package. This includes a header of fixed size (6 =
bytes), plus a "host" or "user@host" part of variable size..</FONT></P>

<P><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">The last part is tricky. According to RFC 1132 =
(which was written for IPv4, not taking into account the larger IPv6 =
address space), "Host software MUST handle host names of up to 63 =
characters and SHOULD handle host names of up to 255 characters." =
Expressing a full IPv6 address in ASCI notation also requires up to 39 =
characters. I assume one should expect this part to be at least around =
100 bytes. Other opinions?</FONT></P>

<P><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">There were also some ideas to restrict the =
recommended size of compound RTCP packets to around 90 bytes (exluding =
IP/UDP), and optimise transmission for such a size.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">I doubt this is a good idea:</FONT>

<UL><LI><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">My guess of a &quot;minimum&quot; size =
already exceeds this value.</FONT></LI>
<LI><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">translators and mixers should combine RTCP =
packets</FONT></LI>
<LI><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">A host should send only one RTCP compound =
packet by report interval, because this is assumed in the =
bandwidth/frequency algorithms for calculating the RTCP sending times. =
This implies the host should combine any information it needs to send =
in this period within one compoung packet.</FONT></LI>
<LI><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Host may therefore need to combine several =
sender and receiver reports (e.g. if multiple senders/receivers are =
involved, or multiple media streams per host), or may need to add =
mandatory RTCP extension packets defined in RTP profiles.</FONT></LI>
</UL>
<P><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Do you agree?</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Acoording to your experience, what are =
realsitic sizes of RTCP packets with IPv6?</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Thank you for your help.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Thomas Belling</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">----------------------------------</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Dr. Thomas Belling</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Siemens =
AG&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Sankt-Martin-Str. 76 </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">D-81541 M=FCnchen =
Germany</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">ICM N PG SP ST N1</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">MCH M 34 307</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Tel&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +49 =
89 636 75207</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Fax&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +49 =
89 636 75577</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Mobile&nbsp; +49 172 =
2974678</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Email&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Thomas.Belling@siemens.com</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>

</BODY>
</HTML>
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_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: RTP Payload for DTMF Digits, Telephony Tones and Telephony Signals
	Author(s)	: H. Schulzrinne, S. Petrack
	Filename	: draft-ietf-avt-rfc2833bis-04.txt
	Pages		: 77
	Date		: 2004-2-12
	
This memo describes how to carry dual-tone multifrequency (DTMF)
signaling, other tone signals and telephony events in RTP packets.
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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> On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:27:13 -0800 John Lazzaro wrote:
>
> Tentatively, the plan for the RTP MIDI documents is to wait until
> the 12th of February for comments, then spend the next four
> days updating the documents to submit -02.txt versions in time
> for the Feb 16th deadline.  At the very least, -02.txt will be adjusted
> for the new Offer/Answer requirements.
>
> So, it would be ideal if folks who were interested in RTP
> MIDI could find the time to do a read-through and send along
> comments by Feb 12.  If that's not possible, it would be good to
> know that there were folks who were planning to send in
> comments but needed more time to read them ... thanks,

Plans have changed -- a few folks from the MMA asked for 6 weeks
to read over the candidate Last Call -01.txt documents. So -01.txt
are the Seoul RTP MIDI documents.

No one from the IETF side of the house has sent in comments --
I'm assuming people are too busy at the moment working
on their own documents.  Once the smoke clears, please
consider reading over:

http://www1.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avt-rtp-midi-format 
-01.txt
http://www1.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avt-rtp-midi- 
guidelines-01.txt

and sending in reviews, it would be great if post-Seoul, I
could combine IETF and MMA reviews and produce -02.txt
documents that are ready for Last Call.  Thanks!

---
John Lazzaro
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~lazzaro
lazzaro [at] cs [dot] berkeley [dot] edu
---


_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



From exim@www1.ietf.org  Sat Feb 14 05:07:38 2004
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From: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
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Subject: [AVT] Publishing draft-ietf-avt-rtp-retransmission-10.txt as Proposed standard
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Hi,

In november and December we had discussion about the IPR situation for 
the RTP retransmission document. We chairs interprets the situation to 
be rough consensus, with some voices raised against, for having it 
published as a proposed standard.

The last revision (number 10) addresses the comment of clarifying that 
the solution is encumbered through a note in the introduction plus 
correct IPR statements in the document and on the IETF IPR page.

We are therefore now going to request that this document is advanced 
toward proposed standard.


Best Regards


Magnus Westerlund

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com



This communication is confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s). Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you believe this message has been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by replying to this transmission and delete the message without disclosing it. Thank you.

E-mail including attachments is susceptible to data corruption, interruption, unauthorized amendment, tampering and viruses, and we only send and receive e-mails on the basis that we are not liable for any such corruption, interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or any consequences thereof.


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From exim@www1.ietf.org  Sun Feb 15 21:41:40 2004
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This draft has a lot of new material about the events previously defined, plus a 
few new data events.  A bunch of normative text was added.  I hope it doesn't 
contradict current practice -- it was added in response to questions Flemming 
Andreason had way back last spring.

We had intended that Henning give it his blessing before it went out, but he has 
been too busy.  So anything that doesn't look right is my responsibility.  Please 
let me know about it.

I'll be setting up the IANA registry mentioned in the document.

Tom Taylor

Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote:

> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Working Group of the IETF.
> 
> 	Title		: RTP Payload for DTMF Digits, Telephony Tones and Telephony Signals
> 	Author(s)	: H. Schulzrinne, S. Petrack
> 	Filename	: draft-ietf-avt-rfc2833bis-04.txt
> 	Pages		: 77
> 	Date		: 2004-2-12
> 	
> This memo describes how to carry dual-tone multifrequency (DTMF)
> signaling, other tone signals and telephony events in RTP packets.
> This document updates RFC 2833.
> 
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avt-rfc2833bis-04.txt
> 


_______________________________________________
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avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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Hi,

If you haven't yet submitted a request for WG agenda, please do so as 
soon as possible. We will accept them until midnight (24.00 GMT).

Submitting a draft before the deadline, is not sufficient to receive any 
time on the AVT WG session agenda time.

The request shall be sent to both us chairs. In the request include the 
following information:

A. Presentation Title:

B. Name of presenter:

C. Draft Reference(s):

D. Requested amount of time in minutes:



Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com



This communication is confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s). Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you believe this message has been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by replying to this transmission and delete the message without disclosing it. Thank you.

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_______________________________________________
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From: Stewart Bryant <stbryant@cisco.com>
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There are some operations that need to be able to distinguish
between IP and non-IP MPLS payloads. For example a router
performing ECMP based on the IP addresses or other information
in the IP header, or an IPFIX/PSAMP packet sampling system
that needs to analyse the payload contents.

We identified this need in PWE3 and proposed a solution. This
is described in sections 5.4.3 and 5.4.4 of the PWE3 Architecture
draft:

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pwe3-arch-06.txt

In essence we proposed that the nibble that immediately follows
the MPLS bottom label has the following semantics:

Value Meaning
0     PWE3 payload*
1     Identified payload type (see below)
4     IPv4
6     IPv6

* It might be argued that this should be changed to mean
"unidentified payload type"

The identified payload type above is the first nibble
in a longword with the following definition:

       0                   1                   2                   3
        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       |0 0 0 1| reserved = 0  |  PA   |          Protocol ID          |
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       |           As defined by PPP DLL protocol definition           |
       |                                                               |
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

       Figure 14: PWE3 PID

    The meaning of the fields of the PWE3 PID (Figure 14) is as follows:


       PA    protocol authority for the user plane or the control plane
             protocol ID
                 0       = PPP DLL
                 1-15    = Reserved

       Protocol ID
             Protocol ID following the format defined by the protocol
             authority identified in PA.

    Bits 4 to 11 inclusive are reserved for future use and must be zero.

PWE3 currently describes this in terms of historic IP version numbers,
but IESG feedback is that we need to use a new registry.

The proposal is that there is a new "nibble that follows the MPLS
label" registry. This will still have the values and semantics described
above. A new draft describing this will be submitted when the IETF
embargo on new drafts lifts, and the PWE3 architecture draft modified 
accordingly. Note that this does not change the existing PWE3 protocol
or headers, just the way that we describe the protocol.

If this proposal gains approval, the implication for ecrtp-over-mpls
would be that it should either:

1) Run under first nibble 0
2) Run under first nibble 1 with an ecrtp-over-mpls as the PPP-DLL value
3) Request a first nibble value from the new registry

- Stewart


Curtis Villamizar wrote:

> ------- Blind-Carbon-Copy
> 
> To: "Ash, Gerald R (Jerry), ALABS" <gash@att.com>
> cc: avt@ietf.org
> Reply-To: curtis@fictitious.org
> Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt 
> In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 09 Feb 2004 07:39:42 CST."
>              <9473683187ADC049A855ED2DA739ABCA0201F057@KCCLUST06EVS1.ugd.att.com> 
> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 11:28:58 -0500
> From: Curtis Villamizar <curtis@workhorse.fictitious.org>
> 
> 
> In message <9473683187ADC049A855ED2DA739ABCA0201F057@KCCLUST06EVS1.ugd.att.com>
> , "Ash, Gerald R (Jerry), ALABS" writes:
> 
>>All,
>>
>>Please review and comment on 'Protocol Extensions for ECRTP over MPLS' http:/
>>/www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt. 
>> The protocol extensions enable the use of MPLS to route enhanced compressed 
>>RTP (ECRTP) compressed packets over an MPLS LSP without compression/decompres
>>sion cycles at each router.
>>
>>The proposed extensions are based on the requirements documented in 'Requirem
>>ents for ECRTP over MPLS' http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ash-avt-e
>>crtp-over-mpls-reqs-01.txt.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Jerry
>>
>>
>>	Title		: Protocol Extensions for ECRTP over MPLS
>>	Author(s)	: J. Ash
>>	Filename	: draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt
>>	Pages		: 0
>>	Date		: 2004-2-5
> 
> 
> 
> Jerry,
> 
> This looks to be a very good direction to go in.  I've dropped MPLS
> from the Cc and put MPLS on the bcc so people know the discussion is
> on the AVT mailing list only.
> 
> In your encapsulations you should make sure to avoid any values in the
> first byte that could be mistaken as IPv4 or IPv6 or any of the
> encapsulations being worked on by those working on VPN and PW.  See
> "The PWE3 Control Word", Jonathan Stein, 22-Oct-02,
> draft-stein-pwe3-controlword-00.txt, for some early discussion on
> that.  Note though that "Payload Type" is something that many
> providers require so that multipath can be used on IP traffic which
> consitutes the majority of traffic yet reordering is avoided for
> traffic which cannot be split based on what appears to be an IP header
> and the IP src/dst pair.
> 
> It might be best to reserve a single fixed first byte for the "Packet
> Type" (and I suggest you make up a name for this shim such as
> SCID_Packet_Type) and use the second byte for the packet types that
> you have defined.  Just as you have to get numbers for SCID_Request
> Object and Header_Compression_Reply Object from IANA, you'll have to
> coordinate with others over this number space, though it is less clear
> if IANA is the authority on this quite yet.
> 
> Curtis
> 
> ------- End of Blind-Carbon-Copy
> 
> 
> 


_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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Message-ID: <4030C043.3030509@cisco.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:06:11 +0000
From: Stewart Bryant <stbryant@cisco.com>
Reply-To: stbryant@cisco.com
Organization: Cisco Systems, Inc.
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To: Sasha Vainshtein <Sasha@AXERRA.com>
CC: avt@ietf.org, pwe3@ietf.org,
        Curtis Villamizar <curtis@workhorse.fictitious.org>
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Subject: [AVT] Re: [PWE3] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-
 00.txt
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Sasha Vainshtein wrote:

> Stewart and all,
> 
> I am not sure I understand the idea about the new registry.
> ECMP safety of the "generic" CW is based on the fact that
> value 0 is not used in the "protocol versions" registry, and 
> the decision to swap the CW and RTP header in TDM PWs over MPLS 
> has been based on value 8 (that is what the nibble in question is
> in the RTP header) has been allocated for something called PIP in this
> registry even if it probably has never been used.

The protocol (and values) will stay the same. We are only
talking about the way that we formally describe the protocol.
The issue was that the IESG did not like PWE3 changing the IP
version registry, but our incomming AD thought that a new
registry, as described, would be more acceptable.

> 
> If we go for the new registry, what is going to happen if somebody, 
> at some time, decides to allocate value 4 (or, in fact, any value between 4 
> and 9) in it? Do we expect IANA to maintain the linkage between the
> two seemingly unrelated registries?

4 and 6 will be preallocated, so that they do not get trodden on.

We need to find out if there is any use of 5, 7, 8 and 9. I.e.
are there any routers in the Internet that carry IP versions
5, 7, 8 or 9 over MPLS. If there are, we need to include them
in the registry as pre-allocated values. If not, then a
new implementation would need to operate under the rules
proposed below (i.e. run under 0, 1 or their own value).

The IESG would advise IANA on the usage of this registry.

- Stewart

> 
> With best regards,
>                                    Sasha Vainshtein
> email:     sasha@axerra.com <mailto:sasha@axerra.com> 
> tel:       +972-3-7659993 (office)
>            +972-8-9254948 (res.)
>            +972-58-674833 (cell.)
>  
> 
> 
> 
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com]
>>Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 2:00 PM
>>To: Curtis Villamizar
>>Cc: avt@ietf.org; pwe3@ietf.org
>>Subject: [PWE3] Re: I-D 
>>ACTION:draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt
>>
>>
>>
>>There are some operations that need to be able to distinguish
>>between IP and non-IP MPLS payloads. For example a router
>>performing ECMP based on the IP addresses or other information
>>in the IP header, or an IPFIX/PSAMP packet sampling system
>>that needs to analyse the payload contents.
>>
>>We identified this need in PWE3 and proposed a solution. This
>>is described in sections 5.4.3 and 5.4.4 of the PWE3 Architecture
>>draft:
>>
>>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pwe3-arch-06.txt
>>
>>In essence we proposed that the nibble that immediately follows
>>the MPLS bottom label has the following semantics:
>>
>>Value Meaning
>>0     PWE3 payload*
>>1     Identified payload type (see below)
>>4     IPv4
>>6     IPv6
>>
>>* It might be argued that this should be changed to mean
>>"unidentified payload type"
>>
>>The identified payload type above is the first nibble
>>in a longword with the following definition:
>>
>>       0                   1                   2                   3
>>        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 
>>7 8 9 0 1
>>       
>>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>       |0 0 0 1| reserved = 0  |  PA   |          Protocol ID 
>>         |
>>       
>>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>       |           As defined by PPP DLL protocol definition  
>>         |
>>       |                                                      
>>         |
>>       
>>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>
>>       Figure 14: PWE3 PID
>>
>>    The meaning of the fields of the PWE3 PID (Figure 14) is 
>>as follows:
>>
>>
>>       PA    protocol authority for the user plane or the 
>>control plane
>>             protocol ID
>>                 0       = PPP DLL
>>                 1-15    = Reserved
>>
>>       Protocol ID
>>             Protocol ID following the format defined by the protocol
>>             authority identified in PA.
>>
>>    Bits 4 to 11 inclusive are reserved for future use and 
>>must be zero.
>>
>>PWE3 currently describes this in terms of historic IP version numbers,
>>but IESG feedback is that we need to use a new registry.
>>
>>The proposal is that there is a new "nibble that follows the MPLS
>>label" registry. This will still have the values and 
>>semantics described
>>above. A new draft describing this will be submitted when the IETF
>>embargo on new drafts lifts, and the PWE3 architecture draft modified 
>>accordingly. Note that this does not change the existing PWE3 protocol
>>or headers, just the way that we describe the protocol.
>>
>>If this proposal gains approval, the implication for ecrtp-over-mpls
>>would be that it should either:
>>
>>1) Run under first nibble 0
>>2) Run under first nibble 1 with an ecrtp-over-mpls as the 
>>PPP-DLL value
>>3) Request a first nibble value from the new registry
>>
>>- Stewart
>>
>>
>>Curtis Villamizar wrote:
>>
>>
>>>------- Blind-Carbon-Copy
>>>
>>>To: "Ash, Gerald R (Jerry), ALABS" <gash@att.com>
>>>cc: avt@ietf.org
>>>Reply-To: curtis@fictitious.org
>>>Subject: Re: I-D 
>>
>>ACTION:draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt 
>>
>>>In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 09 Feb 2004 07:39:42 CST."
>>>             
>>
>><9473683187ADC049A855ED2DA739ABCA0201F057@KCCLUST06EVS1.ugd.att.com> 
>>
>>>Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 11:28:58 -0500
>>>From: Curtis Villamizar <curtis@workhorse.fictitious.org>
>>>
>>>
>>>In message 
>>
>><9473683187ADC049A855ED2DA739ABCA0201F057@KCCLUST06EVS1.ugd.att.com>
>>
>>>, "Ash, Gerald R (Jerry), ALABS" writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>All,
>>>>
>>>>Please review and comment on 'Protocol Extensions for ECRTP 
>>
>>over MPLS' http:/
>>
>>>>/www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-
>>
>>protocol-00.txt. 
>>
>>>>The protocol extensions enable the use of MPLS to route 
>>
>>enhanced compressed 
>>
>>>>RTP (ECRTP) compressed packets over an MPLS LSP without 
>>
>>compression/decompres
>>
>>>>sion cycles at each router.
>>>>
>>>>The proposed extensions are based on the requirements 
>>
>>documented in 'Requirem
>>
>>>>ents for ECRTP over MPLS' 
>>
>>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ash-avt-e
>>
>>>>crtp-over-mpls-reqs-01.txt.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>Jerry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>	Title		: Protocol Extensions for ECRTP over MPLS
>>>>	Author(s)	: J. Ash
>>>>	Filename	: draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt
>>>>	Pages		: 0
>>>>	Date		: 2004-2-5
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Jerry,
>>>
>>>This looks to be a very good direction to go in.  I've dropped MPLS
>>>from the Cc and put MPLS on the bcc so people know the discussion is
>>>on the AVT mailing list only.
>>>
>>>In your encapsulations you should make sure to avoid any 
>>
>>values in the
>>
>>>first byte that could be mistaken as IPv4 or IPv6 or any of the
>>>encapsulations being worked on by those working on VPN and PW.  See
>>>"The PWE3 Control Word", Jonathan Stein, 22-Oct-02,
>>>draft-stein-pwe3-controlword-00.txt, for some early discussion on
>>>that.  Note though that "Payload Type" is something that many
>>>providers require so that multipath can be used on IP traffic which
>>>consitutes the majority of traffic yet reordering is avoided for
>>>traffic which cannot be split based on what appears to be 
>>
>>an IP header
>>
>>>and the IP src/dst pair.
>>>
>>>It might be best to reserve a single fixed first byte for 
>>
>>the "Packet
>>
>>>Type" (and I suggest you make up a name for this shim such as
>>>SCID_Packet_Type) and use the second byte for the packet types that
>>>you have defined.  Just as you have to get numbers for SCID_Request
>>>Object and Header_Compression_Reply Object from IANA, you'll have to
>>>coordinate with others over this number space, though it is 
>>
>>less clear
>>
>>>if IANA is the authority on this quite yet.
>>>
>>>Curtis
>>>
>>>------- End of Blind-Carbon-Copy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>pwe3 mailing list
>>pwe3@ietf.org
>>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
>>
> 
> 
> 


_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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From: Sasha Vainshtein <Sasha@AXERRA.com>
To: "'stbryant@cisco.com'" <stbryant@cisco.com>
Cc: avt@ietf.org, pwe3@ietf.org,
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Subject: [AVT] RE: [PWE3] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-
 00.txt
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Stewart and all,

I am not sure I understand the idea about the new registry.
ECMP safety of the "generic" CW is based on the fact that
value 0 is not used in the "protocol versions" registry, and 
the decision to swap the CW and RTP header in TDM PWs over MPLS 
has been based on value 8 (that is what the nibble in question is
in the RTP header) has been allocated for something called PIP in this
registry even if it probably has never been used.

If we go for the new registry, what is going to happen if somebody, 
at some time, decides to allocate value 4 (or, in fact, any value between 4 
and 9) in it? Do we expect IANA to maintain the linkage between the
two seemingly unrelated registries?

With best regards,
                                   Sasha Vainshtein
email:     sasha@axerra.com <mailto:sasha@axerra.com> 
tel:       +972-3-7659993 (office)
           +972-8-9254948 (res.)
           +972-58-674833 (cell.)
 


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com]
> Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 2:00 PM
> To: Curtis Villamizar
> Cc: avt@ietf.org; pwe3@ietf.org
> Subject: [PWE3] Re: I-D 
> ACTION:draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt
> 
> 
> 
> There are some operations that need to be able to distinguish
> between IP and non-IP MPLS payloads. For example a router
> performing ECMP based on the IP addresses or other information
> in the IP header, or an IPFIX/PSAMP packet sampling system
> that needs to analyse the payload contents.
> 
> We identified this need in PWE3 and proposed a solution. This
> is described in sections 5.4.3 and 5.4.4 of the PWE3 Architecture
> draft:
> 
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pwe3-arch-06.txt
> 
> In essence we proposed that the nibble that immediately follows
> the MPLS bottom label has the following semantics:
> 
> Value Meaning
> 0     PWE3 payload*
> 1     Identified payload type (see below)
> 4     IPv4
> 6     IPv6
> 
> * It might be argued that this should be changed to mean
> "unidentified payload type"
> 
> The identified payload type above is the first nibble
> in a longword with the following definition:
> 
>        0                   1                   2                   3
>         0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 
> 7 8 9 0 1
>        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |0 0 0 1| reserved = 0  |  PA   |          Protocol ID 
>          |
>        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |           As defined by PPP DLL protocol definition  
>          |
>        |                                                      
>          |
>        
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> 
>        Figure 14: PWE3 PID
> 
>     The meaning of the fields of the PWE3 PID (Figure 14) is 
> as follows:
> 
> 
>        PA    protocol authority for the user plane or the 
> control plane
>              protocol ID
>                  0       = PPP DLL
>                  1-15    = Reserved
> 
>        Protocol ID
>              Protocol ID following the format defined by the protocol
>              authority identified in PA.
> 
>     Bits 4 to 11 inclusive are reserved for future use and 
> must be zero.
> 
> PWE3 currently describes this in terms of historic IP version numbers,
> but IESG feedback is that we need to use a new registry.
> 
> The proposal is that there is a new "nibble that follows the MPLS
> label" registry. This will still have the values and 
> semantics described
> above. A new draft describing this will be submitted when the IETF
> embargo on new drafts lifts, and the PWE3 architecture draft modified 
> accordingly. Note that this does not change the existing PWE3 protocol
> or headers, just the way that we describe the protocol.
> 
> If this proposal gains approval, the implication for ecrtp-over-mpls
> would be that it should either:
> 
> 1) Run under first nibble 0
> 2) Run under first nibble 1 with an ecrtp-over-mpls as the 
> PPP-DLL value
> 3) Request a first nibble value from the new registry
> 
> - Stewart
> 
> 
> Curtis Villamizar wrote:
> 
> > ------- Blind-Carbon-Copy
> > 
> > To: "Ash, Gerald R (Jerry), ALABS" <gash@att.com>
> > cc: avt@ietf.org
> > Reply-To: curtis@fictitious.org
> > Subject: Re: I-D 
> ACTION:draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt 
> > In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 09 Feb 2004 07:39:42 CST."
> >              
> <9473683187ADC049A855ED2DA739ABCA0201F057@KCCLUST06EVS1.ugd.att.com> 
> > Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 11:28:58 -0500
> > From: Curtis Villamizar <curtis@workhorse.fictitious.org>
> > 
> > 
> > In message 
> <9473683187ADC049A855ED2DA739ABCA0201F057@KCCLUST06EVS1.ugd.att.com>
> > , "Ash, Gerald R (Jerry), ALABS" writes:
> > 
> >>All,
> >>
> >>Please review and comment on 'Protocol Extensions for ECRTP 
> over MPLS' http:/
> >>/www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-
> protocol-00.txt. 
> >> The protocol extensions enable the use of MPLS to route 
> enhanced compressed 
> >>RTP (ECRTP) compressed packets over an MPLS LSP without 
> compression/decompres
> >>sion cycles at each router.
> >>
> >>The proposed extensions are based on the requirements 
> documented in 'Requirem
> >>ents for ECRTP over MPLS' 
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ash-avt-e
> >>crtp-over-mpls-reqs-01.txt.
> >>
> >>Thanks,
> >>Jerry
> >>
> >>
> >>	Title		: Protocol Extensions for ECRTP over MPLS
> >>	Author(s)	: J. Ash
> >>	Filename	: draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt
> >>	Pages		: 0
> >>	Date		: 2004-2-5
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Jerry,
> > 
> > This looks to be a very good direction to go in.  I've dropped MPLS
> > from the Cc and put MPLS on the bcc so people know the discussion is
> > on the AVT mailing list only.
> > 
> > In your encapsulations you should make sure to avoid any 
> values in the
> > first byte that could be mistaken as IPv4 or IPv6 or any of the
> > encapsulations being worked on by those working on VPN and PW.  See
> > "The PWE3 Control Word", Jonathan Stein, 22-Oct-02,
> > draft-stein-pwe3-controlword-00.txt, for some early discussion on
> > that.  Note though that "Payload Type" is something that many
> > providers require so that multipath can be used on IP traffic which
> > consitutes the majority of traffic yet reordering is avoided for
> > traffic which cannot be split based on what appears to be 
> an IP header
> > and the IP src/dst pair.
> > 
> > It might be best to reserve a single fixed first byte for 
> the "Packet
> > Type" (and I suggest you make up a name for this shim such as
> > SCID_Packet_Type) and use the second byte for the packet types that
> > you have defined.  Just as you have to get numbers for SCID_Request
> > Object and Header_Compression_Reply Object from IANA, you'll have to
> > coordinate with others over this number space, though it is 
> less clear
> > if IANA is the authority on this quite yet.
> > 
> > Curtis
> > 
> > ------- End of Blind-Carbon-Copy
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> pwe3 mailing list
> pwe3@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
> 

_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 11:19:34 -0500
Subject: [AVT] Last Call: 'Tunneling multiplexed Compressed RTP ('TCRTP')' to BCP
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The IESG has received a request from the Audio/Video Transport WG to conside

the following document:

- 'Tunneling multiplexed Compressed RTP ('TCRTP') '
   <draft-ietf-avt-tcrtp-07.txt> as a BCP

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
final comments on this action.  Please send any comments to the
iesg@ietf.org or ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2004-03-12.

The file can be obtained via
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avt-tcrtp-07.txt


_______________________________________________
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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        Curtis Villamizar <curtis@workhorse.fictitious.org>
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In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:06:11 GMT."
             <4030C043.3030509@cisco.com> 
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 10:08:24 -0500
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Subject: [AVT] Re: [PWE3] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol- 00.txt
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In message <4030C043.3030509@cisco.com>, Stewart Bryant writes:
> 
> 
> 4 and 6 will be preallocated, so that they do not get trodden on.
> 
> We need to find out if there is any use of 5, 7, 8 and 9. I.e.
> are there any routers in the Internet that carry IP versions
> 5, 7, 8 or 9 over MPLS. If there are, we need to include them
> in the registry as pre-allocated values. If not, then a
> new implementation would need to operate under the rules
> proposed below (i.e. run under 0, 1 or their own value).
> 
> The IESG would advise IANA on the usage of this registry.
> 
> - Stewart


For all pracical purposes 7, 8 and 9 are not used at all, over MPLS or
otherwise.  These are left overs from the competing proposals to
replace IPv4.  The decision was made to go with IPv6.  Since then none
of them have been used.  It would be reasonable for IESG/IANA to
declare these values as having been temporarily assigned for protocol
experiments which are long ago over and available for reclaim, but
apparently they are choosing not to do so.  There is (or was at some
point) some use of 5 (ST-II).  Use of ST-II may have disappeared, but
I'm uncertain of that.

IESG does have a very good point in that what these are being used for
is not IP version numbers where the other 20 bytes are also an IP
header.  That IPv4 and IPv6 values are reserved in the new registry to
allow the largest single contributor of traffic to be placed in MPLS
without a shim is good, and not breaking very widespread current usage
is good.  If you reserve any number for "other IP version" then an IP
packet with 5, 7, 8 and 9 or any new assignments of IP versions could
be carried with a shim.

Curtis

_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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From: Sasha Vainshtein <Sasha@AXERRA.com>
To: "'curtis@fictitious.org'" <curtis@fictitious.org>, stbryant@cisco.com
Cc: avt@ietf.org, pwe3@ietf.org
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Subject: [AVT] RE: [PWE3] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-
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Curtis and Stewart,
Thank you for the detailed explanation.

To handle the new registry in a "safe" way, I would suggest to specify
that only values 0 to 3 can be used, with 0 assigned to unindentified 
payload type, 1 - to identified payload type and leave 2 and 3 unassigned.

In parallel IANA should declare values 1 to 3 (currently unassigned)
as reserved in the version numbers registry to prevent any attempt to 
assign these values in future.

Does it make sense?

With best regards,
                                   Sasha Vainshtein
email:     sasha@axerra.com <mailto:sasha@axerra.com> 
tel:       +972-3-7659993 (office)
           +972-8-9254948 (res.)
           +972-58-674833 (cell.)
 


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Curtis Villamizar [mailto:curtis@workhorse.fictitious.org]
> Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 5:08 PM
> To: stbryant@cisco.com
> Cc: Sasha Vainshtein; avt@ietf.org; pwe3@ietf.org; Curtis Villamizar
> Subject: Re: [PWE3] Re: I-D 
> ACTION:draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol- 00.txt 
> 
> 
> 
> In message <4030C043.3030509@cisco.com>, Stewart Bryant writes:
> > 
> > 
> > 4 and 6 will be preallocated, so that they do not get trodden on.
> > 
> > We need to find out if there is any use of 5, 7, 8 and 9. I.e.
> > are there any routers in the Internet that carry IP versions
> > 5, 7, 8 or 9 over MPLS. If there are, we need to include them
> > in the registry as pre-allocated values. If not, then a
> > new implementation would need to operate under the rules
> > proposed below (i.e. run under 0, 1 or their own value).
> > 
> > The IESG would advise IANA on the usage of this registry.
> > 
> > - Stewart
> 
> 
> For all pracical purposes 7, 8 and 9 are not used at all, over MPLS or
> otherwise.  These are left overs from the competing proposals to
> replace IPv4.  The decision was made to go with IPv6.  Since then none
> of them have been used.  It would be reasonable for IESG/IANA to
> declare these values as having been temporarily assigned for protocol
> experiments which are long ago over and available for reclaim, but
> apparently they are choosing not to do so.  There is (or was at some
> point) some use of 5 (ST-II).  Use of ST-II may have disappeared, but
> I'm uncertain of that.
> 
> IESG does have a very good point in that what these are being used for
> is not IP version numbers where the other 20 bytes are also an IP
> header.  That IPv4 and IPv6 values are reserved in the new registry to
> allow the largest single contributor of traffic to be placed in MPLS
> without a shim is good, and not breaking very widespread current usage
> is good.  If you reserve any number for "other IP version" then an IP
> packet with 5, 7, 8 and 9 or any new assignments of IP versions could
> be carried with a shim.
> 
> Curtis
> 

_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
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To: Sasha Vainshtein <Sasha@AXERRA.com>
cc: "'curtis@fictitious.org'" <curtis@fictitious.org>, stbryant@cisco.com,
        avt@ietf.org, pwe3@ietf.org
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In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:05:14 +0200."
             <AF5018AC03D1D411ABB70002A5091326D31BE8@TLV1> 
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 15:17:24 -0500
From: Curtis Villamizar <curtis@workhorse.fictitious.org>
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In message <AF5018AC03D1D411ABB70002A5091326D31BE8@TLV1>, Sasha Vainshtein writ
es:
> Curtis and Stewart,
> Thank you for the detailed explanation.
> 
> To handle the new registry in a "safe" way, I would suggest to specify
> that only values 0 to 3 can be used, with 0 assigned to unindentified 
> payload type, 1 - to identified payload type and leave 2 and 3 unassigned.
> 
> In parallel IANA should declare values 1 to 3 (currently unassigned)
> as reserved in the version numbers registry to prevent any attempt to 
> assign these values in future.
> 
> Does it make sense?
> 
> With best regards,
>                                    Sasha Vainshtein
> email:     sasha@axerra.com <mailto:sasha@axerra.com> 
> tel:       +972-3-7659993 (office)
>            +972-8-9254948 (res.)
>            +972-58-674833 (cell.)


No it doesn't make sense.  Separate number spaces allow a value to be
reserved for "other IP version" in which case there would be a shim
followed by the complete 20 byte IP header with the version number
filled in there.  The values of 4 and 6 can be marked as "reserved to
accommodate direct encapsulation of IPv4 and IPv6".  If you wanted to
be nice to ST-II then you could also reserve the number 5, but there
is no ST-II over MPLS currently flowing so there is no concern over
breaking a current deployment by requiring a shim.

For the purpose of multipath, 4 and 6 are splitable, looking into the
IPv4 or IPv6 headers for src/dst addresses.  Any other value is either
not supported by the multipath implementation or if supported, must
look deeper into the packet.  For example with TUBA traffic (version
7?) the shim would have the value for "other IP version" followed by a
full header with the actual version in it.  The TUBA traffic would be
splitable by looking into the 20 byte addresses (but chances of
running at line rate would be real small which is part of why we don't
see any TUBA traffic).

Curtis

ps - No modern router supports IPv 7 8, or 9.  No commercial router,
or ISP deployed router ever supported IPv 7 8, or 9.  No IPv 7 8, or 9
has been seen on a commercial network in nearly a decade.  Other than
TUBA (over OSI) there probably has never been any of this traffic on
anything but a demo setup.



> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Curtis Villamizar [mailto:curtis@workhorse.fictitious.org]
> > Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 5:08 PM
> > To: stbryant@cisco.com
> > Cc: Sasha Vainshtein; avt@ietf.org; pwe3@ietf.org; Curtis Villamizar
> > Subject: Re: [PWE3] Re: I-D 
> > ACTION:draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol- 00.txt 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > In message <4030C043.3030509@cisco.com>, Stewart Bryant writes:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 4 and 6 will be preallocated, so that they do not get trodden on.
> > > 
> > > We need to find out if there is any use of 5, 7, 8 and 9. I.e.
> > > are there any routers in the Internet that carry IP versions
> > > 5, 7, 8 or 9 over MPLS. If there are, we need to include them
> > > in the registry as pre-allocated values. If not, then a
> > > new implementation would need to operate under the rules
> > > proposed below (i.e. run under 0, 1 or their own value).
> > > 
> > > The IESG would advise IANA on the usage of this registry.
> > > 
> > > - Stewart
> > 
> > 
> > For all pracical purposes 7, 8 and 9 are not used at all, over MPLS or
> > otherwise.  These are left overs from the competing proposals to
> > replace IPv4.  The decision was made to go with IPv6.  Since then none
> > of them have been used.  It would be reasonable for IESG/IANA to
> > declare these values as having been temporarily assigned for protocol
> > experiments which are long ago over and available for reclaim, but
> > apparently they are choosing not to do so.  There is (or was at some
> > point) some use of 5 (ST-II).  Use of ST-II may have disappeared, but
> > I'm uncertain of that.
> > 
> > IESG does have a very good point in that what these are being used for
> > is not IP version numbers where the other 20 bytes are also an IP
> > header.  That IPv4 and IPv6 values are reserved in the new registry to
> > allow the largest single contributor of traffic to be placed in MPLS
> > without a shim is good, and not breaking very widespread current usage
> > is good.  If you reserve any number for "other IP version" then an IP
> > packet with 5, 7, 8 and 9 or any new assignments of IP versions could
> > be carried with a shim.
> > 
> > Curtis
> > 
> 

_______________________________________________
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avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------020906090803010304030507
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Hi,

An updated version of the AMR-WB+ payload format is available. We have 
made the following changes:

- Clarified and given recommendations on interoperability with the 
AMR-WB payload format.

- Added a offer/Answer consideration section

- Proposed a solution on how to declared the mono and stereo channels.

Cheers

Magnus

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-sjoberg-avt-rtp-amrwbplus-01.txt
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:37:25 +0100
From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
Reply-To: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.


	Title		: Real-Time Transport Protocol (RTP) Payload
Format and
			  Adaptive Multi-Rate Wideband plus (AMR-WB+)
Audio Codec
	Author(s)	: J. Sjoberg
	Filename	: draft-sjoberg-avt-rtp-amrwbplus-01.txt
	Pages		: 30
	Date		: 2004-2-16
	
This document specifies a real-time transport protocol (RTP) payload
format to be used for Adaptive Multi-Rate Wideband plus (AMR-WB+)
encoded audio signals. The AMR-WB+ codec is an audio extension of the
AMR-WB codec providing additional modes designed to give higher
quality of music and speech than the original modes.  The payload
format is designed according to the principles outlined in the
existing payload formats for AMR and AMR-WB, RFC3267 [9].  A MIME
type registration is included for AMR-WB+.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sjoberg-avt-rtp-amrwbplus-01.t
xt

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-- 

Magnus Westerlund

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com

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_______________________________________________
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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From: shailendra singh <mca_shail@yahoo.com>
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--0-200092367-1077030641=:10059
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Dear sir,
I am working on multimedia video conferencing.I have to do Lip synchronization(audio video synchronization).I am using protocols RTP,SIP,RTCP.
but unable to do this. Kindly help me and suggest any method or any algorithm for achieving this .
I have to submit my project this week .
Please help me I am wiating for ur response.
regards.



Shailendra Singh

---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online
--0-200092367-1077030641=:10059
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<DIV>
<DIV>Dear sir,</DIV>
<DIV>I am working on multimedia video conferencing.I have to do Lip synchronization(audio video synchronization).I am using protocols RTP,SIP,RTCP.</DIV>
<DIV>but unable to do this. Kindly help me and suggest any method or any algorithm for achieving this .</DIV>
<DIV>I have to submit my project this week .</DIV>
<DIV>Please help me I am wiating for ur response.</DIV>
<DIV>regards.</DIV></DIV><BR><BR>Shailendra Singh<p><hr SIZE=1>
Do you Yahoo!?<br>
Yahoo! Finance: <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=22055/*http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html">Get your refund fast by filing online</a>
--0-200092367-1077030641=:10059--

_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: RTP payload Format for JVT Video
	Author(s)	: S. Wenger
	Filename	: draft-ietf-avt-rtp-h264-04.txt
	Pages		: 59
	Date		: 2004-2-17
	
This memo describes an RTP Payload format for the ITU-T 
Recommendation H.264 video codec.  This codec was designed as a 
joint project of the Video Coding Experts Group (VCEG) of ITU-T and
the Moving Picture Experts Group (MPEG) of ISO/IEC.  Recommendation 
H.264 was approved by ITU-T on May 2003, and the approved draft 
specification is available for public review.  ISO/IEC 
International Standard 14496-10 will be technically identical to 
ITU-T Recommendation H.264.

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_______________________________________________
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Hi Thomas,

[Taking chair hat off]

I would like to point out to you that using explicit IPv6 addresses is 
probably not the smartest move for having a short and compact CNAME. I 
think that a CNAME of around 25 bytes is realistic if one makes the 
effort to find short and good CNAMEs. For a mobile phone the 
MSID@operator.com would result in such a size as long as one tries to 
use short domain names. It would also fullfill the requirements on a 
CNAME. I do not expect that a mobile phone will be capable of handling 
two simultanous non-related media sessions. Thus this would provide 
global unique names.

See more comments inline:

Belling Thomas wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> 
> within the 3GPP there were some discussions about realistic sizes of 
> RTCP compound packets in an IPv6 Network.
> 
> Apart from the IPv6/UDP header each packet contains at least a SR (52 
> bytes) or RR (32 bytes), plus SDES package including a CNAME is also 
> mandated in each compound RTCP package. This includes a header of fixed 
> size (6 bytes), plus a "host" or "user@host" part of variable size..
> 
> The last part is tricky. According to RFC 1132 (which was written for 
> IPv4, not taking into account the larger IPv6 address space), "Host 
> software MUST handle host names of up to 63 characters and SHOULD handle 
> host names of up to 255 characters." Expressing a full IPv6 address in 
> ASCI notation also requires up to 39 characters. I assume one should 
> expect this part to be at least around 100 bytes. Other opinions?

I think this depends very much on the scenario and where the user is 
connected. A lot of people can have a rather short ones. I think Colin 
at his previous work could have has one like this:

csp@cruncher.isi.edu

This is a 20 characters, and me taking the liberty to invent a host name 
of 8 characters. Then on the other side the maximum length is 255 
characters.

I think that rather many will suffice with a maximum of 40 chars. A few 
extreme cases could come up to the 100 you mention. However this takes 
either a surprisingly long domain name or explicit IPv6 address combined 
with the user name from hell.


> 
> There were also some ideas to restrict the recommended size of compound 
> RTCP packets to around 90 bytes (exluding IP/UDP), and optimise 
> transmission for such a size.
> 
> I doubt this is a good idea:
> 
>     * My guess of a "minimum" size already exceeds this value.
>     * translators and mixers should combine RTCP packets
>     * A host should send only one RTCP compound packet by report
>       interval, because this is assumed in the bandwidth/frequency
>       algorithms for calculating the RTCP sending times. This implies
>       the host should combine any information it needs to send in this
>       period within one compoung packet.
>     * Host may therefore need to combine several sender and receiver
>       reports (e.g. if multiple senders/receivers are involved, or
>       multiple media streams per host), or may need to add mandatory
>       RTCP extension packets defined in RTP profiles.
> 
> Do you agree?
> 

I think a size of RTCP packets of around 100 bytes without lower layers 
are possible, under the following restrictions from the scenario

- VoIP one to one communication, i.e. no conferences with mixers, one 
SSRC per end-point.
- One selects CNAME in a smart way.
- One does not have any RTCP extensions.
- No need for further SDES items.

However if one needs to support a wider application scenario than the 
one the calculations was done for, then of course the size will be bigger.

I would also like to point out the greater need for RTCP in a conference 
application. In a conference application you have greater need to use 
the SDES items to identify who is actually speaking. This is even more 
important if some kind of mixer, or traffic reflector is used. Also the 
need for SSRC collision detection, network feedback becomes more 
important as one has more participants in a session.

> 
> Acoording to your experience, what are realsitic sizes of RTCP packets 
> with IPv6?
> 

I think this is a very hard question as it depends on the scenario. From 
60 bytes of RTCP when on is alone in the session, to a whole MTU 
reporting on a multiple of sources, plus using extended reporting, for 
example RFC 3611.

I am still hoping that this 3GPP debate will be resolved in such a way 
that RTCP will not be turned off, and that RTCP can received a 
reasonable QoS in regards to the media flow.

Best Regards


Magnus Westerlund

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com


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_______________________________________________
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Magnus and the avt crew,

I have compiled comments thus far regarding the new ATRAC payload 
format, and have attempted to resolve each issue.  Please let me know 
if the responses are heading in the right direction.

Magnus wrote:  "There is need to resolve how the setup signalling for 
this payload format will work. The normal model is that one defines a 
MIME type..."

A few new sections have been added to the draft, which I have inserted 
below.  Is this along the lines of what is needed?

5.1  ATRAC Family MIME Registraion

   The MIME subtype for the Adaptive TRansform Codec Family (ATRAC
   Family) is allocated from the Vendor tree since ATRAC is intended to
   be used with commercial products, and use of ATRAC requires a license
   from Sony Corporation, the vendor.

   Note, any unspecified parameter MUST be ignored by the receiver.

   Media Type name:  audio
   Media subtype name:  ATRACFAMILY
   Required parameters:
     profile:             ATRAC, ATRAC3, ATRAC-X
     frameSampleSize:     512, 1024, 2048
     sampleRate:          32000, 44100, 48000, 88100, 96000
     frameLength:         [license required]
     channels:            1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8

   Optional parameters:
     maxptime: The maximum amount of media which can be encapsulated in
       a payload packet, expressed as time in milliseconds.  The time is
       calculated as the sum of the time the media present in the packet
       represents.  The time SHOULD be a multiple of the frame size.  If
       this parameter is not present, the sender MAY encapsulate a
       maximum of 16 encoded frames into one RTP packet.

     ptime:    see RFC2327 [2]

   Encoding considerations:
     This type is defined for transfer via RTP (RFC 1889).

   File extensions: at1, atr, at3, atx
   Macintosh file type code: none
   Object identifier or OID: none

   Intended usage: LIMITED USE
     Only licensees of ATRAC technology may use this type.

5.2  Mapping MIME Parameters into SDP

   The information carried in the MIME media type specification has a
   specific mapping to fields in the Session Description Protocol (SDP)
   [2], which is commonly used to describe RTP sessions.  When SDP is
   used to specify sessions employing the ATRAC family of codecs, the
   mapping is as follows:

   -  The MIME type ("audio") goes in SDP "m=" as the media name

   -  The MIME subtype (payload format name) goes in SDP "a=rtpmap" as
      the encoding name.  The RTP clock rate in "a=rtpmap" MUST be as
      indicated in the required parameter "sampleRate".

   -  The parameters "ptime" and "maxptime" go in the SDP "a=ptime" and
      "a=maxptime" attributes, respectively.

   -  Any remaining parameters go in the SDP "a=fmtp" attribute by
      copying them directly from the MIME media type string as a
      semicolon separated list of parameter=value pairs.

   Some example SDP session descriptions utilizing ATRAC encodings
   follow.  In these examples, long a=fmtp lines are folded to meet the
   column width constraints of this document; the backslash ("\") at the
   end of a line and the carriage return that follows it should be
   ignored.

   Example usage of ATRAC with stereo at 44100Hz encoded with ATRAC3:

     m = audio 49120 RTP/AVP 99
     a = rtpmap:99 ATRACFAMILY/44100
     a = fmtp:99 profile=ATRAC3; frameSampleSize=1024; frameLength=312; \
         channels=2
     a = maxptime:20

   Example usage of ATRAC with 5.1 setup at 48000Hz encoded with ATRAC-X:

     m = audio 49120 RTP/AVP 99
     a = rtpmap:99 ATRACFAMILY/48000
     a = fmtp:99 profile=ATRAC-X; frameSampleSize=2048; \
         frameLength=1156; channels=6
     a = maxptime:50



(An Offer/Answer Model consideration is still being drafted.)

Magnus wrote: "I would like to see some more information about the 
codecs in the beginning of the draft. Especially properties like, 
possible sampling frequency, multi-channel support, frame sizes, etc. 
which effects the payload design."

Here is how the details section in the introduction now reads:

   Early versions of the ATRAC codec handled only two channels of audio
   at 44.1kHz sampling frequency, with typical bit-rates between 66kbps
   and 132kbps.  The latest version allows for up to 8 channels of audio
   at 96kHz sampling frequency.  The feasible bit-rate range has also
   expanded to from 8kbps to 1400kbps.

   Depending on the version of ATRAC used, the sample-frame size is
   either 512, 1024 or 2048.  Actual bit-rates are determined by
   specifying a fixed encoded frame-size.  In other words, instead of
   requesting a stereo 44.1kHz stream at, say, 64kbps, one would tell
   the encoder to create encoded frame-sizes of 364bytes.



Magnus wrote:  "The Frame Offset fields is not sufficiently defined. I 
don't understand how you can determine the TS offset for each frame in 
the packet using only this field. Also how does it work when there are 
more than 2 frames present in the same RTP payload?"

Here is how the new Frame Offset section reads:

   Frame Offset (FrOff): 4 bits
   The purpose of frame offsets is to provide a basic mechanism for the
   transmission of redundant data.  Using the current packet's timestamp
   as a reference, the frame offset is converted to units of the
   timestamp.  Since frame-size lengths are fixed after being determined
   during SDP initiations (one of either 512, 1024, or 2048 samples),
   the playback time of the first frame (in relation to the current
   timestamp) in the packet can then be calculated.

   As an example of using Frame Offsets, consider a situation when FrOff
   is 3.  If a packet has 5 frames of audio, with each frame
   representing 1024 samples of audio, then we calculate that playback
   begins 3 frames (3072 samples) before the current timestamp.  (The
   only other necessary variable is sampling frequency, which MUST have
   been established during SDP negotiations).  This field SHOULD NOT be
   used in packets containing fragmented data.



Magnus wrote: "The security section will need more work. I think there 
is need to discuss also authentication and integrity protection. Also 
congestion control might need some special consideration, due to 
redundancy transmission and possibility to vary bit-rate."

Is a model similar to what exists in the AMR-WB+ draft sufficient?

thanks,
matt

----------------------------------------
Matthew M.I. Romaine
IMNC Audio Codec Group
Sony Corporation
phone: 03-5448-6065
fax: 03-5448-5617
----------------------------------------


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Hi,

The WG last call for the RTP payload format for uncompressed video has 
ended. We have received comments from Philippe Gentric endorsing 
publication. The typos found by Philippe has been corrected in the 
submitted update. Therefore I will now request that 
draft-ietf-avt-uncomp-video-06.txt is published as an proposed standard.

Cheers

Magnus


-- 

Magnus Westerlund

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com


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	Title		: Registration of the text/red MIME Sub-Type
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	Title		: RTCP Extensions for Single-Source Multicast Sessions with Unicase Feedback
	Author(s)	: J. Chesterfield
	Filename	: draft-ietf-avt-rtcpssm-06.txt
	Pages		: 39
	Date		: 2004-2-18
	
This document specifies a modification to the Real-time Transport 
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	Title		: An RTP Payload Format for Generic FEC
	Author(s)	: A. Li
	Filename	: draft-ietf-avt-ulp-09.txt
	Pages		: 36
	Date		: 2004-2-18
	
This document specifies a payload format for generic Forward
   Error Correction (FEC) for media data encapsulated in RTP. It is
   based on the exclusive-or (parity) operation, and it is a
   generalized algorithms that includes Uneven Level Protection
   (ULP). The payload format described in this draft allows end
   systems to apply protection using arbitrary protection lengths
   and levels, in addition to using arbitrary protection group
   sizes. It enables complete recovery or partial recovery of the
   critical payload and RTP header fields depending on the packet
   loss situation. This scheme is completely backward compatible
   with non-FEC capable hosts. Those receivers that do not know
   about FEC can simply ignore the protection data. This draft will
   obsolete RFC 2733 and RFC 3009.

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_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



From exim@www1.ietf.org  Wed Feb 18 13:13:33 2004
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From: "Dan Wing" <dwing@cisco.com>
To: "IETF AVT mailing list" <avt@ietf.org>
Cc: "Flemming Andreasen" <fandreas@cisco.com>, "Dave Oran" <oran@cisco.com>
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Subject: [AVT] verifying bearer connectivity
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Flemming Andreasen is planning to present draft-wing-avt-rtp-noop and
its companion, draft-andreasen-mmusic-connectivityprecondition-00.txt,
at the upcoming AVT meeting in Seoul.  Their abstracts are below.

We wanted to ensure that AVT is aware of these individual contributions.
These I-Ds provide a mechanism to verify the existance of, and quality
of, the bearer path prior to alerting the user.


draft-wing-avt-rtp-noop-00.txt abstract:

   This document defines an no-op payload format for the Real-time
   Transport Protocol (RTP), and a mechanism to request an immediate
   RTCP report.  This can be used to verify RTP connectivity and to
   keep Network Address Translator (NAT) bindings and Firewall pinholes
   open.

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wing-avt-rtp-noop-00.txt

The IESG has been made aware of IPR surrounding -wing-avt-rtp-noop-,
and a pointer to http://www.ietf.org/ipr.html will be in the -01
revision of draft-wing-avt-rtp-noop.




draft-andreasen-mmusic-connectivityprecondition-00.txt abstract:

   This document defines a new connectivity precondition for the
   Session Description Protocol precondition framework described in RFC
   3312.  A connecitivity precondition can be used to delay session
   establishment or modification until media stream connectivity has
   been verified successfully.

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-andreasen-mmusic-connectivitypreco
ndition-00.txt

-Dan Wing


_______________________________________________
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avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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why?

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[Filename: talk.exe, Content-Type: application/octet-stream]
The attachment file in the message has been removed by eManager.

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_______________________________________________
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avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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From: "Gunnar Hellstrom" <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
To: "avt IETF" <avt@ietf.org>
Cc: "Paul Jones" <paulej@packetizer.com>, "Toip list" <toip@snowshore.com>,
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Subject: [AVT] draft-ietf-avt-rfc2793bis-02 RTP packetisation for text conversation published
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A new internet draft: draft-ietf-avt-rfc2793bis-02 has been published. It=
 is
intended for real time chatracter by character text transmission in RTP.

Below the announcement copied here, there is a list of comments and
responses on the -01 version.

The new draft will be reviewed in the avt meeting in IETF 59, with the
intention that this work shall rapidly approach the last call state.

A couple of other activities in the interactive text conversation area wi=
ll
be briefly covered in the same session to complete the picture of maturin=
g
support for real time text over IP connections, including, but not only
covering SIP calls.



-----------Announcement--------------------------------------------------=
---
---
A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.


	Title		: RTP Payload for Text Conversation
	Author(s)	: G. Hellstrom, P. Jones
	Filename	: draft-ietf-avt-rfc2793bis-02.txt
	Pages		: 20
	Date		: 2004-2-18

This memo describes how to carry text conversation session contents
in RTP packets. Text conversation session contents are specified in
ITU-T Recommendation T.140 [1].

Text conversation is used alone or in connection to other
conversational facilities such as video and voice, to form multimedia
conversation services.

This RTP payload description contains an optional possibility to
include redundant text from already transmitted packets in order to
reduce the risk of text loss caused by packet loss. The redundancy
coding follows RFC 2198.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avt-rfc2793bis-02.txt

To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to
ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the messag=
e.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the usern=
ame
"anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in,
type "cd internet-drafts" and then
	"get draft-ietf-avt-rfc2793bis-02.txt".

A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt


Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.

Send a message to:
	mailserv@ietf.org.
In the body type:
	"FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avt-rfc2793bis-02.txt".

NOTE:	The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
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	how to manipulate these messages.

-------------Comments on the -01 version ( mainly from Magnus Westerlund)
and answers ---------------------
1. Abstract: You need to remove the [1] reference.
<GH<Done

2. Section 1: There is a MUST in the introduction. It should be changed
to lower case must of two reasons. First, this document does not define
that T.140 elements use ISO 10646-1. Secondly, having normative language
in an introduction is not appropriate.
<GH<Done

3. Section 3.2: Last sentence of second paragraph. "This T140block
counter may be
   utilized to detect lost blocks." I would propose to change this to:
"This T140block counter is intended to be
   utilized to detect lost blocks and avoid duplication of blocks."
<GH<Done

4. section 3.3, last sentence: Is this SHOULD correct? Why does the
paragraph implies that CCS SHOULD be place in one block, why not MAY or
SHALL?
<GH<No, SHOULD is suitable here. Nothing drastic happens if part of a CCS=
 is
lost, and it depends a lot on the structure of the transmitter if it is
feasible to expect transmission of CCS in one block.

5. The robustness features of the draft. As I have privately commented I
would prefer to see the robustness features be collected into a single
chapter. I think by moving sections: 3.4, 3.5,  3.8, 3.9, and 4.4 into a
new chapter, between 4 and 5 the draft can be made more understandable.
<GH<I think the other way, it is good to have all code examples in one
chapter, and to get the information about robustness while you are readin=
g
about the block basics. - No action.

6. Section 3.6: I think one should be more explicit about the fact that
the rendering of (reasonably) late blocks is recommend and very beneficia=
l.
<GH<Done

7. Section 3.6: End of last paragraph: I think I understand the
motivation behind the recommendation that voice is discarded rather then
the T.140 when going from IP to PSTN at a gateway. However I think one
should reflect somewhat on the effects on the audio also.
<GH<Done

8. Section 3.7: Timestamp. "For audio/T140, the clock frequency
     MAY be set to any value. If not specified by out of band mechanism,
     the frequency value is generally set to be 8000 Hz, as that is most
     common for audio."
I think the "generally set to be 8000 Hz" is not good enough. There
needs to be strict rules on what to do, otherwise you are in trouble. I
think that if not out-of-band signalling, where the interleaved audio
can be matched in rate, a fixed rate shall be set.

I am also missing the sentence saying: "When using this payload format
interleaved with an audio codec, the rate SHOULD be chosen to be the
same as the audio codec(s) to avoid RTP timestamp rate switching."
<GH<Done

9. Section 3.7: Missing marker bit definition. Even if not used it MUST
be defined as being not used and set to 0.
<GH<Done

10. Section 3.8: I think there are no reason to have a section called
"additional headers" and then simply having it state, no headers exist.
It is mostly about redundancy anyway, please rename.
<GH<Sorry, missed that, no action yet.

11. section 3.9, second paragraph. This paragraph is very hard to
interpret. First it talks about audio/t140, then about text/t140, and
when you come to the rules you are rather confused about for what it
applies. Please try to improve the paragraph through restructuring.
<GH<Simplified

12. In regards to the robustness options. As we now have available
mechanism to report packet losses, RFC 3611, but probably more important
draft-ietf-avt-rtcp-feedback and its NACK format, there is now
possibilities to do reactive repairs. I think the possibility should at
least be mentioned, or if it doesn't work, that should be motivated.
Please investigate this.
<GH<Done

13. Section 5, Second paragraph: "To control the character transmission
rate, the "fmtp" attribute [7]
   is used with the following syntax:"
I think this sentence should be changed to explain that; first CPS is a
MIME parameter, secondly that this is how it is mapped according to
section x to SDP.
<GH<Done.

14. Section 6.3: The RED SDP examples. Why does one have a=3Dfmtp lines
like this? To my understanding of the pt list it should only contain a
single 98. This is either a bug here, or problem in the text/red document.
<GH<This is how RFC2198 is specified in SDP

15. Section 7: I think the security section can be improved:
- Separate the three main issues, confidentiality, integrity, and source
authentication. They are different, and have different severity and
attacks, and different counters.
- The section should give recommendations to mechanism that allows one
to counter these problems. For the two first SRTP works very well. For
the last it provides some properties that can be used to accomplish
that, combined with the signalling.
So please expand this.
<GH<Done

16. Section 8: Should be titled "IANA Consideration". And the
introduction to the chapter should request that the two mime types are
registered.
<GH<Done

17. Section 8.1, and 8.2: The registration should mention "This type is
only defined for transfer via RTP."
<GH<Done

18. Section 8.1, and 8.2: Security consideration: Please point at
section 7 of RFC XXXX.
<GH<Done

19. Section 8.2: The rate parameter for audio should contain the rule
that it SHOULD be matched with interleaved audio codecs.
<GH<Done

20. Section 11: Are really all references normative. I would expect that
5, 6, and 8 are informative. I have however not looked closely at it.
<GH<They look normative.

21. As it seems there will be some more RFC editors notes, they may be
moved into a separate RFC-editor section instead of being spread through
the document.
<GH<done.

22. <GH<The explanation on the applicability of the two formats text/t140=
 vs
audio/t140 were requested to be refined to more clear show the difference
and application area. Sections 3.1 and 3.2 have been amended. Comments
already received on the new wording in section 3.2 in version -02 indicat=
e
that there is a need for further adjustment to give a balanced view of th=
e
application area of the audio/t140 format for IP transit of text between
PSTN equipment.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Best regards
Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
-------------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
Omnitor AB
Renathv=E4gen 2
SE 121 37 Johanneshov
SWEDEN
+46 8 556 002 03
Mob: +46 708 204 288
www.omnitor.se
Gunnar.Hellstrom@Omnitor.se
--------------------------------------------




_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 11:31:45 +0100
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From: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
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Subject: [AVT] Updated RFCs on Copyright and IPR in relation to IETF
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Hi,

I would like to make all WG participants aware of that 3 RFC has been 
published that updates your rights in submission to the IETF. I would 
recommend that you look at them. Reasons why you should look at them are:

- RFC 3667 updates what an Internet draft needs to contain, thus it is 
important that any document editor reads this.

- RFC 3667 also regulates what rights you grant with any contribution to 
the IETF. Please note that as contribution is also counted email to the 
WG, speaking at the WG meeting. Please read the RFC for authoritative 
text on this.

- RFC 3668 describes what rules that apply for IPR disclosures, thus it 
applies to any contributing to the IETF.

- RFC 3669 contains guidelines for how to handle IPR in the WG. This can 
be useful reading for people discussing, having or disclosing IPR.

See document information, abstract and links below.

Cheers

Magnus


	BCP 78
         RFC 3667

         Title:      IETF Rights in Contributions
         Author(s):  S. Bradner
         Status:     Best Current Practice
         Date:       February 2004
         Mailbox:    sob@harvard.edu
         Pages:      18
         Characters: 43297
         SeeAlso:    BCP 78

         I-D Tag:    draft-ietf-ipr-submission-rights-08.txt

         URL:        ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc3667.txt


The IETF policies about rights in Contributions to the IETF are
designed to ensure that such Contributions can be made available to
the IETF and Internet communities while permitting the authors to
retain as many rights as possible.  This memo details the IETF
policies on rights in Contributions to the IETF.  It also describes
the objectives that the policies are designed to meet.  This memo
updates RFC 2026, and, with RFC 3668, replaces Section 10 of RFC
2026.


         BCP 79
         RFC 3668

         Title:      Intellectual Property Rights in IETF Technology
         Author(s):  S. Bradner
         Status:     Best Current Practice
         Date:       February 2004
         Mailbox:    sob@harvard.edu
         Pages:      17
         Characters: 41365
         SeeAlso:    BCP 79

         I-D Tag:    draft-ietf-ipr-technology-rights-12.txt

         URL:        ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc3668.txt


The IETF policies about Intellectual Property Rights (IPR), such as
patent rights, relative to technologies developed in the IETF are
designed to ensure that IETF working groups and participants have as
much information about any IPR constraints on a technical proposal as
possible.  The policies are also intended to benefit the Internet
community and the public at large, while respecting the legitimate
rights of IPR holders.  This memo details the IETF policies concerning
IPR related to technology worked on within the IETF.  It also
describes the objectives that the policies are designed to meet.  This
memo updates RFC 2026 and, with RFC 3667, replaces Section 10 of RFC
2026.  This memo also updates paragraph 4 of Section 3.2 of RFC 2028,
for all purposes, including reference [2] in RFC 2418.


        RFC 3669

         Title:      Guidelines for Working Groups on Intellectual
                     Property Issues
         Author(s):  S. Brim
         Status:     Informational
         Date:       February 2004
         Mailbox:    sbrim@cisco.com
         Pages:      17
         Characters: 40946
         Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso:    None

         I-D Tag:    draft-ietf-ipr-wg-guidelines-05.txt

         URL:        ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc3669.txt


This memo lays out a conceptual framework and rules of thumb useful
for working groups dealing with Intellectual Property Rights (IPR)
issues.  It documents specific examples of how IPR issues have been
dealt with in the IETF.

-- 

Magnus Westerlund

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com



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_______________________________________________
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



From exim@www1.ietf.org  Thu Feb 19 06:11:33 2004
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From: "Jose Rey" <rey@panasonic.de>
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Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 12:07:42 +0100
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Subject: [AVT] 3GPP Timed Text
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Hi all,

at the 59th IETF I will have some time to give an update on the 3GPP Timed
Text work.

Since the last IETF there has been some offline discussion.  The result of
this activity and the comments received in the last meeting is reflected in
the current draft: draft-rey-avt-3gpp-timed-text-02.txt.

The main changes are:

- modular header: similar to that in  draft-ietf-avt-rtp-h264-xx.txt, where
an the TYPE value specifies header composition. Take a look at section 4.2.

- complex modifier headers have been removed: as a consequence payload
format is simpler than in -01. As a consequence resiliency for modifier box
fragments is reduced, as only complete modifier box contents are useful. For
such fragments FEC, retransmission, repetition SHOULD be used.  It is
estimated that applying such measures is simpler than the previous headers.
Check section 4.1.

- text string fragments are always displayable as text strings.

- coordination of the payload format structure to enable transport using
MPEG simple (RFC3640).


Looking forward to your comments,


-------------------------------
Jose Rey
Mobile Multimedia Group
Panasonic European Labs GmbH
D-63225 Langen, Germany
Tel.:+49-6103-766-134
Fax :+49-6103-766-166
Email: rey@panasonic.de
Visit: www.pel.panasonic.de
-------------------------------


_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



From exim@www1.ietf.org  Thu Feb 19 08:43:37 2004
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Hi, I want to know if RTP include some congestion control mechanisms in
the specifications, or applications using RTP need to implement their own
congestion control mechanisms ??
Thanks.


_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



From exim@www1.ietf.org  Thu Feb 19 09:03:32 2004
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Hi Frederic,

RTP/RTCP or any existing profile does not specify a congestion control 
algorithm to use, only that any data transmission should use it. With 
the intention that any transfers over best-effort networks without 
guaranteed QoS SHALL use congestion control.

RTCP provides certain network related measurements that can be used to 
implement congestion control with.

The AVT has very recently received a proposal to develop a profile for 
TFRC with RTP/RTCP. This will be discussed in Seoul in two weeks.

So the bottom line is: Yes, the application needs to implement 
congestion control itself. To simplify the implementation effort of 
using congestion control is one of the reasons why DCCP is being developed.

Cheers

Magnus

Frederic Nivor wrote:

> Hi, I want to know if RTP include some congestion control mechanisms in
> the specifications, or applications using RTP need to implement their
> own
> congestion control mechanisms ??
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Audio/Video Transport Working Group
> avt@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt
> 

-- 

Magnus Westerlund

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com


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From exim@www1.ietf.org  Fri Feb 20 10:28:41 2004
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Hi,

This draft is a very interesting piece of work. It contains a number of 
interesting issues. Of which the first one is:

Should we do this work in AVT? My personal opinion is that doing this is 
probably a good thing. I am not especially optimistic about a quick 
deployment of DCCP thus making it possible to use TFRC that way.

I think that AVT is the right group for doing the profile as we know RTP 
and RTCP best. However we will need TFRC expertise to join AVT so that 
we don't miss some important limitation and ensure that TFRC will work 
well.

This is all something that will need discussion with our AD. Before we 
can do this work we will need a recharter.


Further issues that will need to be discussed is:

- I think that using a profile for this is probably the right way. Not 
for the reason of the header changes which would make it required, 
rather for the signalling that both end points needs to support the 
feedback gathering and reporting correctly. This will clearly increase 
the number of profiles with 2-4 new profiles. The reason is that the old 
or on the way profiles needs to be expressed combined with congestion 
control. I would think that combinations with SRTP and AVPF is probably 
needed.

- I think the header extensions proposed should be reconsidered. Adding 
extra overhead if not really needed is not a good thing. As also 
expressed in the draft there seems to be alternatives to the two fields.

Transmission timestamp. First it is possible to use sender side 
measurements to perform the RTT measurements. Secondly the field does 
not need to be 32 bits. I think somewhere around 24-16 bits is 
sufficient. The only reason to add this field in my view seems to be the 
extended feedback it could provide. We could for example fix the jitter 
calculations by basing them on this field, instead of the display 
timestamp.

The RTT field. To this field there are multiple alternatives. First, run 
RTCP XR RTT measurements in each RTCP packet from the receiver. Thus 
enabling the client to measure the RTT by itself. This would also be 
consistent if a receiver is a sender also. Second alternative would be 
to let the sender report the RTT to the receiver in each RTCP packet 
from the sender.

- I think extending the receiver report is a bad choice. I think putting 
this extended report in another RTCP packet type is a better choice. One 
alternative to a new RTCP packet type would be to use XR, where there is 
a lot of extra code points.

The reason I see for not changing the RTP or RTCP RR packets is that 
this will require more implementation change than using the other 
possibilities. This might not be an issues for the end-points as they 
will anyway need to add extensions to their implementations. However to 
destroy for 3rd party monitors seems to be a bad idea. Also the RTP 
header is already rather big, we should avoid making it bigger.

- Further the changes in the timing rules will need to be more closely 
considered. The profile will basically require that one send at least 
one RTCP packet per RTT. Thus the normal RTCP bandwidth assignment rules 
goes mostly out of the window. Would also needs to consider how one can 
use bandwidth limits or something other to determine how often RTCP 
packets with more data can be sent. If one needs to send on RTCP every 
RTT the RTCP bandwidth becomes dependent on the RTCP packet size and the 
RTT only. Should some type of feedback path congestion control be 
included in this? Is it time to start sequence number the RTCP packets 
to determine the loss rate in the RTCP channel?

- The proposal needs signalling for a number of attributes. This would 
also need to be worked out when we know what needs signalling.

Based on this, I would say that this is a significant amount of work for 
the WG to undertake. Thus I would like to hear the opinion of the 
participants in the WG about it.


Cheers


Magnus Westerlund

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com



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_______________________________________________
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Subject: [AVT] Call for Participation: WiOpt'04
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Apologies if you receive multiple copies of this call!


----------------------------------------------------------------------
  
			CALL FOR PARTICIPATION

        ***************************************************
        *                                                 *
        *                   WiOpt '04                     *
        *                                                 *
        *     2nd Workshop on Modeling and Optimization   *
        *      in Mobile, Ad Hoc and Wireless Networks    *
        *                                                 *
        *        March 24 - 26, 2004, Cambridge, UK       *
        *                                                 *
        ***************************************************


                         Workshop Website:
           http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/Research/SRG/wiopt04/


This workshop is intended to bring together leading researchers from
both academia and industry to present both foundations and practical
methods and tools for modeling and optimisation of mobile and ad hoc
networks.  The workshop will bring together researchers studying
optimisation issues of mobile networks from both the network
performance and the mobile networking perspectives:

*  Mobile Network Optimisation: Applications and Algorithms
*  Performance characterisation and optimisation of
   mobile/wireless networks and systems
*  Protocol design (MAC, Routing) for optimal mobile network
   utilisation
*  Tools for network optimisation
*  Energy efficiency in mobile networks
*  Security and co-operation models for mobile networks
*  Pricing and incentives in mobile and ad hoc networks.

The program committee has compiled an excellent program of 43
presentations, selected from over 180 submissions. You can find the
program at the end of this call or at
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/Research/SRG/wiopt04/program.html.  


IMPORTANT DATES:

Early registration deadline 	-  1 March 2004 
Late registration deadline 	- 12 March 2004 
Workshop 			- 24 - 26 March 2004 


LOCATION:

The workshop will take place in Cambridge, United Kindom at
New Hall College. Accommodation is available within the college
and in hotels in Cambridge. The website has more information under 
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/Research/SRG/wiopt04/venue.html.

REGISTRATION:

To register, please download the registration form from 
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/Research/SRG/wiopt04/regis.html, fill it out
and mail or fax it to the address shown on the webpage.

Registration fee is £ 180 for early registration before March 1st, £
225 for late registration before March 12. Space is limited, so please
register soon!

A limited number for student travel grants is available. Details can
be found on the registration web page. 

PRELIMINARY PROGRAM:

The program consists of 11 regular sessions, two plenary sessions and
a poster session.  

Plenary Speakers:

Bruce Hajek (University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, USA) 
Ian Akyildiz (Georgia Institute of Technology, USA) 

Regular Papers:

Session 1: QoS 

Optimal Scheduling for Multimedia Traffic in a Wireless LAN
 Munish Goyal, Anurag Kumar, and Vinod Sharma 

An Efficient Scheduling Scheme for IEEE 802.11e
 Pierre Ansel, Qiang Ni, and Thierry Turletti 

Interference Control at Packet-level in Wireless Networks with Quality
of Service Support  
 Sami Ayyorgun and Rene L. Cruz 

Utility Based Data Service Differentiation for CDMA Data Networks
 Haitao Lin, Mainak Chatterjee, Sajal K. Das, and Kalyan Basu 

Session 2: Energy Management

Minimum-Energy Broadcasting in Wireless Networks Using a Single Broadcast Tree
 Ioannis Papadimitriou and Leonidas Georgiadis

Exact Solution of the Minimum Energy Broadcasting Problem in Ad Hoc
Wireless Networks by Integer Programming 
 Kemal Altinkemer, F. Sibel Salman, and Prashant Bellur

Complexity of Minimum Spanning Tree in Evolving Graphs and the
Minimum-Energy Broadcast Routing Problem 
 Afonso Ferreira and Aubin Jarry

Bounds on the Energy Consumption of Routings in Wireless Sensor
Networks
 Juan Alonso, Adam Dunkels, and Thiemo Voigt

Session 3: Cellular Networks

Transport Level Optimisations for Streaming Media Over Wide-area
Wireless Networks 
 Julian Chesterfield, Rajiv Chakravorty, Suman Banerjee, Pablo
 Rodriguez, and Ian Pratt  

Cell Reselection Interarrival Time Investigation for GPRS
 Roger Kalden and Bart Sanders

Minimum Cost Paging for Multi-System Wireless Networks
 Abhishek Roy, Archan Misra, and Sajal K. Das

Integer Programming Methods for UMTS Radio Network Planning
 Andreas Eisenblaetter, Atesio Armin Fuegenschuh, Hans-Florian
 Geerdes, Daniel Junglas, Thorsten Koch, and Alexander Martin 

Session 4: Ad-Hoc Networks I

Enhancing SWAN QoS Model By Adopting Destination-Based Regulation (ESWAN)
 Yasser L. Morgan and Thomas Kunz 

QoS-Aware Segmented Backup Source Routing in Mobile Ad Hoc Networks
 Ajay Agarwal

Connectivity in Ad-Hoc Networks: a Queueing Theoretical Approach
 Daniele Miorandi and Eitan Altman

Study of Connectivity in Wireless Ad-Hoc Networks with an Improved Radio Model
 R. Hekmat and P. Van Mieghem

CDMA & Multicarrier Systems

Throughput Optimization of Dynamic OFDM-FDMA Systems with Inband Signaling
 James Gross, Holger Karl, and Adam Wolisz

Pilot Power Optimization in WCDMA Networks
 Iana Siomina and Di Yuan

3G-WCDMA Downlink Capacity Analysis and Optimisation with
Multi-Carrier Deployment 
 Ridha Nasri and Mongi Marzoug

Joint Scheduling and Resource Allocation in CDMA Systems
 Rajeev Agrawal, Vijay Subramanian, and Randall Berry

Session 6: Sensor Networks

Exploiting Mobility for Energy Efficient Data Collection in Sensor
Networks 
 Sushant Jain, Rahul Shah, Waylon Brunette, Gaetano Borriello, and
 Sumit Roy 

Distributed Self-Tuning of Sensor Networks
 Aditya Karnik, Anurag Kumar, and Vivek Borkar

Decentralized Utility-based Sensor Network Design 
 Narayanan Sadagopan and Bhaskar Krishnamachari

Network Devolution and the Growth of Sensory Lacunae in Sensor
Networks 
 Srisankar S. Kunniyur and Santosh S. Venkatesh

Infrastructure WLANs

Asymptotics for Provisioning Problems of Peering Wireless LANs with a
Large Number of Participants 
 Costas Courcoubetis and Richard Weber

Saving Energy in Wi-Fi Hotspots through 802.11 PSM: An Analytical
Model 
 G. Anastasi, M. Conti, E. Gregori, and A. Passarella

Energy Efficient Scheduler Design in Wireless Networks
 Jeongjoon Lee, Catherine Rosenberg, and Edwin K. P. Chong

Fuelling WiFi Deployment : A Reputation-based Solution
 Naouel Ben Salem, Jean-Pierre Hubaux, and Markus Jakobsson

Session 8: Performance Optimization 

Optimal Power Control over Multiple Time-Scale Fading Channels with
Service Outage Constraints 
 Subhrakanti Dey and Jamie Evans 

Wireless Link Scheduling with Power Control
 Steven A. Borbash and Anthony Ephremides 

An Energy-Optimal Algorithm for Neighbor Discovery in Wireless Sensor
Networks 
 Ritesh Madan, Sanjay Lall 

On-line Optimal Wireless Multicast
 Prasanna Chaporkar and Saswati Sarkar

Session 9: Game-Theoretic Models

A Game-Theoretic Look at Simple Relay Channel
 Yalin Evren Sagduyu and Anthony Ephremides

Random Access in Wireless Ad Hoc Networks as a Distributed Game  
 Vivek S. Borkar and Arzad A. Kherani

Self-Optimisation of Sensor Networks as a Game
 Aditya Karnik and Anurag Kumar

Auction-based Spectrum Sharing
 Jianwei Huang, Randall Berry and Michael L. Honig

Session 10: Performance Modeling 

Model-based Loss Inference by TCP over Heterogeneous Networks
 Dhiman Barman and Ibrahim Matta

Asymptotic Analysis of a Peer Enhanced Cache Invalidation Scheme 
 Julee Pandya, Prasant Mohapatra, and Dipak Ghosal

A Modeling Framework for Computing Lifetime and Information Capacity
in Wireless Sensor Networks 
 Enrique J. Duarte-Melo, Mingyan Liu, and Archan Misra

Analysis of an Effective Priority Scheme to Support QoS Provisioning
for Multicasting in Mobile Wireless Networks 
 Koji Miyazaki and Wuyi Yue

Session 11: Ad-Hoc Networks II

On Achievable Delay/Capacity Trade-offs in Mobile Ad Hoc Networks
 Gaurav Sharma and Ravi R. Mazumdar

Relaying in Mobile Ad-Hoc Networks
 R. Groenevelt, E. Altman, and P. Nain

Analysis of Bandwidth Allocation Algorithms for Bluetooth Wireless
Personal Area Networks 
 Randeep Bhatia, Adrian Segall, and Gil Zussman 


ORGANIZATION:

General chairman: Imrich Chlamtac

Vice General Chair: Roger Whitaker 

Program Co-Chairs: Marco Conti and Tamer Basar

Program committee of the conference:

Eitan Altman, Venkat Anantharam, Konstantin Avrachenkov, Andrew
Campbell, X. Cao, A. Chockalingam, Jon Crowcroft, Anthony Ephremides,
Silvia Giordano, Stephen V. Hanly, Jean-Pierre Hubaux, Holger Karl,
Peter Key, P. R. Kumar, Peter Marbach, Derek Mcauley, Archan Misra,
Philippe Nain, Sven Oestring, Yoshikuni Onozato, Ariel Orda, Ramesh
Rao, Catherine Rosenberg, Ness Shroff, Violet Syrotiuk, Thierry
Turletti, Adam Wolisz, Jeff Wieselthier, Moshe Zukerman

Local Arrangements Co-Chair: Sven Oestring, Julian Chesterfield and
	Rajiv Chakravorty  

Treasurer: Meng How Lim

Publicity Chair: Holger Karl

The workshop is co-sponsored by
        * Univ. of Cambridge
        * IIT (Istituto di Informatica e Telematica)
        * IEEE IT Society (technical co-sponsorship)
	* INRIA
	* Euro NGI
	* CREATE-NET

Additional financial support is provided by:
        * Intel
        * Microsoft Research



_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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Hi Amir,

This question belong to the AVT mailing list not MMUSIC. If you respond 
please exclude the MMUSIC list.

The reason for not allowing the usage of single NAL unit packets and 
STAP-As in Interleaved mode is that they do not contain Decoding Order 
Numbers. To avoid the inconsistencies with some NALU having DON and 
other not, this restriction is in place. You will have to use STAP-B in 
interleaved mode to send a single NALU. This is the overhead you will 
have to pay for using interleaving mode.

I hope that clarifies things.

Cheers

Magnus

Amir Wolf wrote:
> Hi All,
> I have one question about the above draft related to packetization-mode.
> The draft specifies that when packetization-mode is set to 2 
> 
> single NAL unit packets and STAP-As MUST NOT be present in the stream.
> 
> I really don't understand this limitation, It is possible for a server
> to use MTAP when having small frames, though aggregating several frames
> in one RTP packet to fill the MTU size.
> 
> On the other hand, when getting a large frame, The server may use STAP-A
> and not STAP-B to reduce overheads.
> 
> Am I missing something?
> 
> Thanks 
> 
> Amir wolf
> 
> Direct: +972-9-7699386
> 
> Mobile: +972-55-509035
> 
> Fax: +972 9 7699 373
> 
> EMBLAZE Systems,Ltd. www.emblaze.com
> 
> 22 Zarhin St. Raanana  43662, ISRAEL
> 
>  
> 

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Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
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Hi Colin,

what is the relation of the below draft to =
draft-ietf-avt-rtp-retransmission-10.txt  ?


thanks & br,

gamze

-----Original Message-----
From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org [mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org]
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 10:10 PM
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-perkins-avt-rtp-reactive-fec-00.txt


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.


	Title		: RTP Retransmission Using Reactive FEC
	Author(s)	: C. Perkins
	Filename	: draft-perkins-avt-rtp-reactive-fec-00.txt
	Pages		: 8
	Date		: 2004-1-15
=09
This memo describes how the RTP Payload Format for Generic Forward
Error Correction can be combined with the Extended RTP Profile for
RTCP-based Feedback to provide a solution for retransmission of lost
RTP packets. Such a retransmission format is expected to be useful to
improve the reliability of real-time applications with relaxed delay
bounds, for example non-interactive streaming audio/video.

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Cc: IETF AVT working group <avt@ietf.org>
From: Colin Perkins <csp@csperkins.org>
Subject: Re: [AVT] rtp retransmission
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 10:26:33 +0000
To: "Gamze Seckin" <gamze@vidiator.com>
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On 23 Feb 2004, at 10:15, Gamze Seckin wrote:
> what is the relation of the below draft to 
> draft-ietf-avt-rtp-retransmission-10.txt  ?

My draft was an alternative proposal, as an attempt to avoid some of 
the IPR issues associated with the retransmission proposal.

Colin


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Hi Amir,

Comments inlie, I would also like to point out that the lastes H.264 
draft is version 04.

Amir Wolf wrote:
> Hi Magnus,
> I understand, but I think it's wrong.
> As any rtp packet contains the packetization method of the packet, I
> think we should enable an option that supports all packetization
> methods.

The problem is not deciding how a NALU is packetized. The problem is 
that for making the interleaved mode work, all NALUs on the receiver 
side must have a DON. We authors has considered if we could solve it by 
some rule on how to determine the DON for NALUs lacking a DON. However 
we could not find a relatively simple rule that would work satisfactory 
without restricting which NALUs that could be sent around it. Thus we 
selected to use the explicit and guaranteed to work method of requiring 
all NALUs to be assigned a DON by the sender and having it transported 
in the packet types that support such transport. If you can write such a 
rule, we would welcome it.


> In addition, rfc 3016 enables aggregation of frames in one RTP packet
> for MPEG4, I don't see why not making it possible for AVC without
> special signaling.

Aggregation is supported in both Non-Interleaved and Interleaved Mode. 
The single NALU mode does not support aggregation due its intention of 
being very simple. Also the single NALU mode is sufficient for certain 
use cases and applications. I understand that there is other use cases 
where aggregation is necessary. However due to the wide area of 
applications that the payload format is intended to support, we can't 
mandate that all functionality is implemented by all applications, while 
only a few needs certain application sets. The reason for making Single 
NALU mandatory is to ensure that at least on packetization mode is 
common for all applications that needs to negotiate. Those are the 
reasons why we have the Single NALU mode mandatory, Non-Interleave 
Recommended and Interleaved as optional.

It is up to a certain application to decide what is appropriate for the 
application and in that context determine what modes that should or 
should not be implemented. If an application requires interleaving to 
work satisfactory, it is up to that application specification to make 
interleaving mandatory.


> As 3GPP are going to adopt the above draft stating that Single NUL unit
> mode will be mandatory, Non-Interleaved mode - Recommended and
> Interleaved mode will be optional - We are loosing here one of the most
> advantages of the AVC.

If 3GPP in one of its applications needs aggregation, then make 
aggregation mandatory to implement. This is up to 3GPP to determine what 
there application requires. In fact I think that the 3GPP SA4 meeting 
will be discussing this very issue this week. If you look at the 
proposals over which packetization modes that will be required, some 
company proposes only single NALU mode, while others proposes either of 
the two others.


Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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From exim@www1.ietf.org  Mon Feb 23 07:55:33 2004
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Hi Magnus,
I understand, but I think it's wrong.
As any rtp packet contains the packetization method of the packet, I =
think we should enable an option that supports all packetization =
methods.
In addition, rfc 3016 enables aggregation of frames in one RTP packet =
for MPEG4, I don't see why not making it possible for AVC without =
special signaling.
As 3GPP are going to adopt the above draft stating that Single NUL unit =
mode will be mandatory, Non-Interleaved mode - Recommended and =
Interleaved mode will be optional - We are loosing here one of the most =
advantages of the AVC.

Amir

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Magnus Westerlund [mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com]
> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 12:12 PM
> To: Amir Wolf; mmusic (E-mail); IETF AVT WG
> Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] draft-ietf-avt-rtp-h264-03.doc question
>=20
>=20
> Hi Amir,
>=20
> This question belong to the AVT mailing list not MMUSIC. If=20
> you respond=20
> please exclude the MMUSIC list.
>=20
> The reason for not allowing the usage of single NAL unit packets and=20
> STAP-As in Interleaved mode is that they do not contain=20
> Decoding Order=20
> Numbers. To avoid the inconsistencies with some NALU having DON and=20
> other not, this restriction is in place. You will have to use=20
> STAP-B in=20
> interleaved mode to send a single NALU. This is the overhead you will=20
> have to pay for using interleaving mode.
>=20
> I hope that clarifies things.
>=20
> Cheers
>=20
> Magnus
>=20
> Amir Wolf wrote:
> > Hi All,
> > I have one question about the above draft related to=20
> packetization-mode.
> > The draft specifies that when packetization-mode is set to 2=20
> >=20
> > single NAL unit packets and STAP-As MUST NOT be present in=20
> the stream.
> >=20
> > I really don't understand this limitation, It is possible=20
> for a server
> > to use MTAP when having small frames, though aggregating=20
> several frames
> > in one RTP packet to fill the MTU size.
> >=20
> > On the other hand, when getting a large frame, The server=20
> may use STAP-A
> > and not STAP-B to reduce overheads.
> >=20
> > Am I missing something?
> >=20
> > Thanks=20
> >=20
> > Amir wolf
> >=20
> > Direct: +972-9-7699386
> >=20
> > Mobile: +972-55-509035
> >=20
> > Fax: +972 9 7699 373
> >=20
> > EMBLAZE Systems,Ltd. www.emblaze.com
> >=20
> > 22 Zarhin St. Raanana  43662, ISRAEL
> >=20
> > =20
> >=20
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Magnus Westerlund
>=20
> Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
> Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
> S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
>=20
>=20
> This communication is confidential and intended solely for=20
> the addressee(s). Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or=20
> distribution is prohibited. If you believe this message has=20
> been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by=20
> replying to this transmission and delete the message without=20
> disclosing it. Thank you.
>=20
> E-mail including attachments is susceptible to data=20
> corruption, interruption, unauthorized amendment, tampering=20
> and viruses, and we only send and receive e-mails on the=20
> basis that we are not liable for any such corruption,=20
> interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or any=20
> consequences thereof.
>=20
>=20

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Hi Matthew,

Here is some comments on the proposed update.

Matthew Romaine wrote:

> Magnus and the avt crew,
> 
> I have compiled comments thus far regarding the new ATRAC payload 
> format, and have attempted to resolve each issue.  Please let me know 
> if the responses are heading in the right direction.
> 
> Magnus wrote:  "There is need to resolve how the setup signalling for 
> this payload format will work. The normal model is that one defines a 
> MIME type..."
> 
> A few new sections have been added to the draft, which I have inserted 
> below.  Is this along the lines of what is needed?

Yes, you definitely need a MIME registration.  More comments about 
details inline. In general I thing all the required parameters needs a 
bit more text.

> 
> 5.1  ATRAC Family MIME Registraion
> 
>    The MIME subtype for the Adaptive TRansform Codec Family (ATRAC
>    Family) is allocated from the Vendor tree since ATRAC is intended to
>    be used with commercial products, and use of ATRAC requires a license
>    from Sony Corporation, the vendor.
> 
>    Note, any unspecified parameter MUST be ignored by the receiver.
> 
>    Media Type name:  audio
>    Media subtype name:  ATRACFAMILY
>    Required parameters:
>      profile:             ATRAC, ATRAC3, ATRAC-X
>      frameSampleSize:     512, 1024, 2048
>      sampleRate:          32000, 44100, 48000, 88100, 96000
>      frameLength:         [license required]
>      channels:            1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
> 

The question is if it would be a better alternative to define three MIME 
types, one for each of the profiles. I assume that you have plans to 
allow for new profiles, thus one needs to consider backwards 
compatibility etc. In this case it is probably easier to define one MIME 
type for each profile. Thus a receiver will not need to look into FMTP 
line to know if it supports the codec profile or not. One will also 
avoid having backwards compatibility issues for any new codec if it 
needs new parameters.

Having a parameter that requires license does not look good in my eyes. 
It needs to at least define what possible values that it can have. If 
the exact values are secret defines what range that is allowed.

Also does a specific channel assignment rule for the number exist? Are 
you using the one in RFC 3551 with extension for 7 and 8 channels?

Also I think you should consider how you intend to use the frame sample 
  size and the frame length parameters. In what directions does they in 
fact apply between a sender and receiver?

>    Optional parameters:
>      maxptime: The maximum amount of media which can be encapsulated in
>        a payload packet, expressed as time in milliseconds.  The time is
>        calculated as the sum of the time the media present in the packet
>        represents.  The time SHOULD be a multiple of the frame size.  If
>        this parameter is not present, the sender MAY encapsulate a
>        maximum of 16 encoded frames into one RTP packet.
> 
>      ptime:    see RFC2327 [2]
> 
>    Encoding considerations:
>      This type is defined for transfer via RTP (RFC 1889).

The RTP reference to use is RFC 3550.

> 
>    File extensions: at1, atr, at3, atx

Are you registering a file format at the same time. The file extension 
is in relation to the a file format registration. I think you will need 
to clarify how the file format part relates to the RTP payload.

>    Macintosh file type code: none
>    Object identifier or OID: none
> 
>    Intended usage: LIMITED USE
>      Only licensees of ATRAC technology may use this type.
> 
> 5.2  Mapping MIME Parameters into SDP
> 
>    The information carried in the MIME media type specification has a
>    specific mapping to fields in the Session Description Protocol (SDP)
>    [2], which is commonly used to describe RTP sessions.  When SDP is
>    used to specify sessions employing the ATRAC family of codecs, the
>    mapping is as follows:
> 
>    -  The MIME type ("audio") goes in SDP "m=" as the media name
> 
>    -  The MIME subtype (payload format name) goes in SDP "a=rtpmap" as
>       the encoding name.  The RTP clock rate in "a=rtpmap" MUST be as
>       indicated in the required parameter "sampleRate".

No, I would specify this the other way. The MIME parameter sampleRate 
goes as the RTP clock rate in the "a=rtpmap" attribute. Also the 
channels should probably go in "rtpmap" attribute as an the first 
encoding parameter.

How common is it expected to change the number of channels in a RTP 
stream, i.e. for the same SSRC? If it possible to change at all, have 
you considered the problems, see my mail about this.
http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/working-groups/avt/current/msg03384.html

> 
>    -  The parameters "ptime" and "maxptime" go in the SDP "a=ptime" and
>       "a=maxptime" attributes, respectively.
> 
>    -  Any remaining parameters go in the SDP "a=fmtp" attribute by
>       copying them directly from the MIME media type string as a
>       semicolon separated list of parameter=value pairs.
> 
>    Some example SDP session descriptions utilizing ATRAC encodings
>    follow.  In these examples, long a=fmtp lines are folded to meet the
>    column width constraints of this document; the backslash ("\") at the
>    end of a line and the carriage return that follows it should be
>    ignored.
> 
>    Example usage of ATRAC with stereo at 44100Hz encoded with ATRAC3:
> 
>      m = audio 49120 RTP/AVP 99
>      a = rtpmap:99 ATRACFAMILY/44100
>      a = fmtp:99 profile=ATRAC3; frameSampleSize=1024; frameLength=312;
> \
>          channels=2
>      a = maxptime:20
> 
>    Example usage of ATRAC with 5.1 setup at 48000Hz encoded with
> ATRAC-X:
> 
>      m = audio 49120 RTP/AVP 99
>      a = rtpmap:99 ATRACFAMILY/48000
>      a = fmtp:99 profile=ATRAC-X; frameSampleSize=2048; \
>          frameLength=1156; channels=6
>      a = maxptime:50
> 
> 
> 
> (An Offer/Answer Model consideration is still being drafted.)

Yes, this one will be very important, especially as you have a number of 
required parameters.

> 
> Magnus wrote: "I would like to see some more information about the 
> codecs in the beginning of the draft. Especially properties like, 
> possible sampling frequency, multi-channel support, frame sizes, etc. 
> which effects the payload design."
> 
> Here is how the details section in the introduction now reads:
> 
>    Early versions of the ATRAC codec handled only two channels of audio
>    at 44.1kHz sampling frequency, with typical bit-rates between 66kbps
>    and 132kbps.  The latest version allows for up to 8 channels of audio
>    at 96kHz sampling frequency.  The feasible bit-rate range has also
>    expanded to from 8kbps to 1400kbps.
> 
>    Depending on the version of ATRAC used, the sample-frame size is
>    either 512, 1024 or 2048.  Actual bit-rates are determined by
>    specifying a fixed encoded frame-size.  In other words, instead of
>    requesting a stereo 44.1kHz stream at, say, 64kbps, one would tell
>    the encoder to create encoded frame-sizes of 364bytes.
> 
> 

Thanks, that help somewhat.

> 
> Magnus wrote:  "The Frame Offset fields is not sufficiently defined. I 
> don't understand how you can determine the TS offset for each frame in 
> the packet using only this field. Also how does it work when there are 
> more than 2 frames present in the same RTP payload?"
> 
> Here is how the new Frame Offset section reads:
> 
>    Frame Offset (FrOff): 4 bits
>    The purpose of frame offsets is to provide a basic mechanism for the
>    transmission of redundant data.  Using the current packet's timestamp
>    as a reference, the frame offset is converted to units of the
>    timestamp.  Since frame-size lengths are fixed after being determined
>    during SDP initiations (one of either 512, 1024, or 2048 samples),
>    the playback time of the first frame (in relation to the current
>    timestamp) in the packet can then be calculated.
> 
>    As an example of using Frame Offsets, consider a situation when FrOff
>    is 3.  If a packet has 5 frames of audio, with each frame
>    representing 1024 samples of audio, then we calculate that playback
>    begins 3 frames (3072 samples) before the current timestamp.  (The
>    only other necessary variable is sampling frequency, which MUST have
>    been established during SDP negotiations).  This field SHOULD NOT be
>    used in packets containing fragmented data.
> 
> 

The problem I see is that Frame Offset if used needs to be defined for 
each frame in the payload. However what I understand it only occurs one 
in the payload header. Thus I can't understand why one can't use the 
timestamp to place the data correct.

I would also think that some text on how one aggregates multiple frames 
and derive their timestamps are needed.

When sending multiple channels are they in a single block of data or are 
they sent in multiple blocks of data, each contains a channel or two? If 
  they are split, how does one determine which channel the data belongs to.


> 
> Magnus wrote: "The security section will need more work. I think there 
> is need to discuss also authentication and integrity protection. Also 
> congestion control might need some special consideration, due to 
> redundancy transmission and possibility to vary bit-rate."
> 
> Is a model similar to what exists in the AMR-WB+ draft sufficient?
> 

Yes, I would say so. However there are need to consider if the codec 
itself contains any security problems, like possibility to create 
bit-streams that are much more resource demanding than common data. I 
would also recommend that you looks at RFC 3552.
ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc3552.txt


Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com


This communication is confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s). Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you believe this message has been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by replying to this transmission and delete the message without disclosing it. Thank you.

E-mail including attachments is susceptible to data corruption, interruption, unauthorized amendment, tampering and viruses, and we only send and receive e-mails on the basis that we are not liable for any such corruption, interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or any consequences thereof.


_______________________________________________
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comments Inline



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Magnus Westerlund [ mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com]
> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 2:37 PM
> To: Amir Wolf
> Cc: IETF AVT WG
> Subject: Re: draft-ietf-avt-rtp-h264-03.doc question
>
>
> Hi Amir,
>
> Comments inlie, I would also like to point out that the lastes H.264
> draft is version 04.
>
> Amir Wolf wrote:
> > Hi Magnus,
> > I understand, but I think it's wrong.
> > As any rtp packet contains the packetization method of the packet, I
> > think we should enable an option that supports all packetization
> > methods.
>
> The problem is not deciding how a NALU is packetized. The problem is
> that for making the interleaved mode work, all NALUs on the receiver
> side must have a DON. We authors has considered if we could
> solve it by
> some rule on how to determine the DON for NALUs lacking a
> DON. However
> we could not find a relatively simple rule that would work
> satisfactory
> without restricting which NALUs that could be sent around it. Thus we
> selected to use the explicit and guaranteed to work method of
> requiring
> all NALUs to be assigned a DON by the sender and having it
> transported
> in the packet types that support such transport. If you can
> write such a
> rule, we would welcome it.

Actually I can think of a very simple rule:

I think that MTAP's can also be used for Non-Interleaved mode - This is =
by sending NUL units of several pictures in decoding order

It will than require 2 more definitions of MTAP16-A, MTAP24-A, MTAP16-B =
and MTAP24-B.

Where MTAP's-A will not contain a DON.

The packetization-mode flag will than can have some more values with the =
distinction of Interleaved and non Interleaved mode, for example:

0- Single Nul unit

1- MTAP16-A and MTAP24-A and STAP-A and FU-A (and Single)

2- MTAP16-B and MTAP24-B and STAP-B and FU-B (and Single)

3-  (0-2)

=20

The difference between MTAPs-A and STAP-A is very similar to the support =
of frame aggregation by rfc3016 which does not require additional =
signaling.

=20


>
>
> > In addition, rfc 3016 enables aggregation of frames in one
> RTP packet
> > for MPEG4, I don't see why not making it possible for AVC without
> > special signaling.
>
> Aggregation is supported in both Non-Interleaved and
> Interleaved Mode.
> The single NALU mode does not support aggregation due its
> intention of
> being very simple. Also the single NALU mode is sufficient
> for certain
> use cases and applications. I understand that there is other
> use cases
> where aggregation is necessary. However due to the wide area of
> applications that the payload format is intended to support, we can't
> mandate that all functionality is implemented by all
> applications, while
> only a few needs certain application sets. The reason for
> making Single
> NALU mandatory is to ensure that at least on packetization mode is
> common for all applications that needs to negotiate. Those are the
> reasons why we have the Single NALU mode mandatory, Non-Interleave
> Recommended and Interleaved as optional.
>
> It is up to a certain application to decide what is
> appropriate for the
> application and in that context determine what modes that should or
> should not be implemented. If an application requires interleaving to
> work satisfactory, it is up to that application specification to make
> interleaving mandatory.
>
>
> > As 3GPP are going to adopt the above draft stating that
> Single NUL unit
> > mode will be mandatory, Non-Interleaved mode - Recommended and
> > Interleaved mode will be optional - We are loosing here one
> of the most
> > advantages of the AVC.
>
> If 3GPP in one of its applications needs aggregation, then make
> aggregation mandatory to implement. This is up to 3GPP to
> determine what
> there application requires. In fact I think that the 3GPP SA4 meeting
> will be discussing this very issue this week. If you look at the
> proposals over which packetization modes that will be required, some
> company proposes only single NALU mode, while others proposes
> either of
> the two others.
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Magnus Westerlund
>
> Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
> Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
> S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
>
>
> This communication is confidential and intended solely for
> the addressee(s). Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or
> distribution is prohibited. If you believe this message has
> been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by
> replying to this transmission and delete the message without
> disclosing it. Thank you.
>
> E-mail including attachments is susceptible to data
> corruption, interruption, unauthorized amendment, tampering
> and viruses, and we only send and receive e-mails on the
> basis that we are not liable for any such corruption,
> interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or any
> consequences thereof.
>
>=20


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<TITLE></TITLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1276" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>comments =
Inline</FONT><BR><BR>
<P><FONT size=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: Magnus =
Westerlund=20
[<A=20
href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com">mailto:magnus.westerlund@e=
ricsson.com</A>]<BR>&gt;=20
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 2:37 PM<BR>&gt; To: Amir Wolf<BR>&gt; =
Cc: IETF=20
AVT WG<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: draft-ietf-avt-rtp-h264-03.doc=20
question<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Hi Amir,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Comments =
inlie, I=20
would also like to point out that the lastes H.264<BR>&gt; draft is =
version=20
04.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Amir Wolf wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; Hi Magnus,<BR>&gt; =
&gt; I=20
understand, but I think it's wrong.<BR>&gt; &gt; As any rtp packet =
contains the=20
packetization method of the packet, I<BR>&gt; &gt; think we should =
enable an=20
option that supports all packetization<BR>&gt; &gt; =
methods.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; The=20
problem is not deciding how a NALU is packetized. The problem is<BR>&gt; =
that=20
for making the interleaved mode work, all NALUs on the receiver<BR>&gt; =
side=20
must have a DON. We authors has considered if we could<BR>&gt; solve it=20
by<BR>&gt; some rule on how to determine the DON for NALUs lacking =
a<BR>&gt;=20
DON. However<BR>&gt; we could not find a relatively simple rule that =
would=20
work<BR>&gt; satisfactory<BR>&gt; without restricting which NALUs that =
could be=20
sent around it. Thus we<BR>&gt; selected to use the explicit and =
guaranteed to=20
work method of<BR>&gt; requiring<BR>&gt; all NALUs to be assigned a DON =
by the=20
sender and having it<BR>&gt; transported<BR>&gt; in the packet types =
that=20
support such transport. If you can<BR>&gt; write such a<BR>&gt; rule, we =
would=20
welcome it.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Actually I can think of a very simple rule:</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>I think that MTAP's can also be used for =
Non-Interleaved mode -=20
This is by sending NUL units of several pictures in decoding =
order</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>It will than require 2 more definitions of MTAP16-A, =
MTAP24-A,=20
MTAP16-B and MTAP24-B.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Where MTAP's-A will not contain a DON.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>The p<FONT size=3D2>acketization-mode flag will than =
can have some=20
more values with the distinction of Interleaved and non Interleaved =
mode, for=20
example:</FONT></FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2><FONT size=3D2>0- Single Nul unit</FONT></FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2><FONT size=3D2>1- MTAP16-A and&nbsp;MTAP24-A and =
STAP-A and FU-A=20
(and Single)</FONT></FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2><FONT size=3D2>2-&nbsp;MTAP16-B and MTAP24-B and =
STAP-B=20
and&nbsp;FU-B (and Single)</FONT></FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>3-&nbsp; (0-2)</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>The difference between MTAPs-A and STAP-A is very =
similar to the=20
support of frame aggregation by rfc3016 which does not require =
additional=20
signaling.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;</P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff></FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff></FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff></FONT><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; In addition, rfc =
3016 enables=20
aggregation of frames in one<BR>&gt; RTP packet<BR>&gt; &gt; for MPEG4, =
I don't=20
see why not making it possible for AVC without<BR>&gt; &gt; special=20
signaling.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Aggregation is supported in both =
Non-Interleaved=20
and<BR>&gt; Interleaved Mode.<BR>&gt; The single NALU mode does not =
support=20
aggregation due its<BR>&gt; intention of<BR>&gt; being very simple. Also =
the=20
single NALU mode is sufficient<BR>&gt; for certain<BR>&gt; use cases and =

applications. I understand that there is other<BR>&gt; use cases<BR>&gt; =
where=20
aggregation is necessary. However due to the wide area of<BR>&gt; =
applications=20
that the payload format is intended to support, we can't<BR>&gt; mandate =
that=20
all functionality is implemented by all<BR>&gt; applications, =
while<BR>&gt; only=20
a few needs certain application sets. The reason for<BR>&gt; making=20
Single<BR>&gt; NALU mandatory is to ensure that at least on =
packetization mode=20
is<BR>&gt; common for all applications that needs to negotiate. Those =
are=20
the<BR>&gt; reasons why we have the Single NALU mode mandatory,=20
Non-Interleave<BR>&gt; Recommended and Interleaved as =
optional.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
It is up to a certain application to decide what is<BR>&gt; appropriate =
for=20
the<BR>&gt; application and in that context determine what modes that =
should=20
or<BR>&gt; should not be implemented. If an application requires =
interleaving=20
to<BR>&gt; work satisfactory, it is up to that application specification =
to=20
make<BR>&gt; interleaving mandatory.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; As =
3GPP are=20
going to adopt the above draft stating that<BR>&gt; Single NUL =
unit<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
mode will be mandatory, Non-Interleaved mode - Recommended and<BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
Interleaved mode will be optional - We are loosing here one<BR>&gt; of =
the=20
most<BR>&gt; &gt; advantages of the AVC.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; If 3GPP in one =
of its=20
applications needs aggregation, then make<BR>&gt; aggregation mandatory =
to=20
implement. This is up to 3GPP to<BR>&gt; determine what<BR>&gt; there=20
application requires. In fact I think that the 3GPP SA4 meeting<BR>&gt; =
will be=20
discussing this very issue this week. If you look at the<BR>&gt; =
proposals over=20
which packetization modes that will be required, some<BR>&gt; company =
proposes=20
only single NALU mode, while others proposes<BR>&gt; either of<BR>&gt; =
the two=20
others.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Cheers<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Magnus=20
Westerlund<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research=20
EAB/TVA/A<BR>&gt;=20
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR=
>&gt;=20
Ericsson=20
AB&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
| Phone +46 8 4048287<BR>&gt; Torshamsgatan=20
23&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Fax&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
+46 8 7575550<BR>&gt; S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto:=20
magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; This =
communication is=20
confidential and intended solely for<BR>&gt; the addressee(s). Any =
unauthorized=20
review, use, disclosure or<BR>&gt; distribution is prohibited. If you =
believe=20
this message has<BR>&gt; been sent to you in error, please notify the =
sender=20
by<BR>&gt; replying to this transmission and delete the message =
without<BR>&gt;=20
disclosing it. Thank you.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; E-mail including attachments =
is=20
susceptible to data<BR>&gt; corruption, interruption, unauthorized =
amendment,=20
tampering<BR>&gt; and viruses, and we only send and receive e-mails on=20
the<BR>&gt; basis that we are not liable for any such =
corruption,<BR>&gt;=20
interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or any<BR>&gt; =
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_______________________________________________
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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Hi Amir,

Sorry, for misunderstanding. I thought the problem was the overhead 
associated with using STAP-B, instead of using STAP-As. However as I 
understand your problem is that you like to use MTAPs also in 
Non-Interleaved mode.

We have discussed this setup among the authors. The reason why it is not 
included as I can find it is captured in this explanation by Miska:

"Regarding MTAPs with DON: The only scenario where MTAPs without DON can 
be used is when several pictures (access units) are encapsulated in 
their decoding order to an MTAP to drop the packet header overhead 
compared to STAP-based encapsulation. This requires either a very low 
bitrate or large MTU size, neither of which is very likely. All the use 
cases presented in the specification require the use of DON with MTAPs. 
Thus, I suggest allowing MTAPs only with DON."

What is your opinion about this?

Cheers

Magnus

-- 

Magnus Westerlund

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com


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From exim@www1.ietf.org  Mon Feb 23 09:39:34 2004
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Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-avt-rtp-h264-03.doc question
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From: "Amir Wolf" <Amir.Wolf@emblaze.com>
To: "Magnus Westerlund" <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
Cc: "IETF AVT WG" <avt@ietf.org>
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Subject: [AVT] RE: draft-ietf-avt-rtp-h264-03.doc question
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Well,=20
Streaming AVC over GPRS networks requires a very low bitrate (about =
30-40Kbps).
In order to get the maximum out of the network it is essential to =
aggregate pictures as the MTU still stands around the 1500 bytes.
Amir

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Magnus Westerlund [mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com]
> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 4:26 PM
> To: Amir Wolf
> Cc: IETF AVT WG
> Subject: Re: draft-ietf-avt-rtp-h264-03.doc question
>=20
>=20
> Hi Amir,
>=20
> Sorry, for misunderstanding. I thought the problem was the overhead=20
> associated with using STAP-B, instead of using STAP-As. However as I=20
> understand your problem is that you like to use MTAPs also in=20
> Non-Interleaved mode.
>=20
> We have discussed this setup among the authors. The reason=20
> why it is not=20
> included as I can find it is captured in this explanation by Miska:
>=20
> "Regarding MTAPs with DON: The only scenario where MTAPs=20
> without DON can=20
> be used is when several pictures (access units) are encapsulated in=20
> their decoding order to an MTAP to drop the packet header overhead=20
> compared to STAP-based encapsulation. This requires either a very low=20
> bitrate or large MTU size, neither of which is very likely.=20
> All the use=20
> cases presented in the specification require the use of DON=20
> with MTAPs.=20
> Thus, I suggest allowing MTAPs only with DON."
>=20
> What is your opinion about this?
>=20
> Cheers
>=20
> Magnus
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Magnus Westerlund
>=20
> Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
> Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
> S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
>=20
>=20
> This communication is confidential and intended solely for=20
> the addressee(s). Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or=20
> distribution is prohibited. If you believe this message has=20
> been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by=20
> replying to this transmission and delete the message without=20
> disclosing it. Thank you.
>=20
> E-mail including attachments is susceptible to data=20
> corruption, interruption, unauthorized amendment, tampering=20
> and viruses, and we only send and receive e-mails on the=20
> basis that we are not liable for any such corruption,=20
> interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or any=20
> consequences thereof.
>=20
>=20

_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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Subject: [AVT] Comments on draft-ietf-avt-rtcpssm-06.txt
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Hi,

Here is my comments on the draft. They are mostly editorial, there are a 
few that are for discussion. see 8, 9, 13, 15, 17, 19, 20

1. You will need the new boilerplate according to RFC 3667 and RFC 3668.

2. The copyright misses any date.

3. The pages are missing the correct new-page charachters.

4. TOC: Chapter 17 is missing a space between title and number.

5. Chapter 5: Table with RTCP packet types. I think that XR is better 
called "Extended Reports" instead of "RTCP Extension".

6. You are missing two RTCP packet type in this table.
    FIR        full INTRA-frame request 192      [RFC2032]
    NACK       negative acknowledgement 193      [RFC2032]

7. Section 6.2, second paragraph: "MUST not" should be "MUST NOT"

8. Section 6.2, third paragraph: "All unicast data received on this
    port MUST be forwarded by the source to the group on the multicast
    RTCP channel."

Is it really intended that any received packets should be forwarded? If 
someone sends IP/UDP/FOO then it will be forwarded. Isn't this a 
problem. I think that RTCP has pretty good heuristics for checking that 
RTCP really is RTCP.

9. Section 7.1.3: The distribution buckets: Is it really intended that 
the buckets shall overlap? IF both ends of any given bucket is inclusive 
then any consecutive bucket will share one integer value of the bucket 
range. Also how does one resolve cases when the number of possible 
values are not even dividable between the buckets? I think that 
consistent rules for rounding is necessary.

10. Section 7.1.5: The second last sentence uses lower case "must" where 
I think it should be a "MUST".

11. Section 7.1.8: The length field. The definition is a bit confusing 
"For a DNS name,
       the length field indicates the number of 32-bit words making up
       the string plus 1 byte and any additional padding required to
       reach the next word boundary."

I would write it:
For a DNS name, the length field indicates the number of 32-bit words 
necessary for the string, and 1 octet of NULL termination. The address 
string is padded if not 32 bit aligned, see below.

12. Section 7.1.8: Address: If I understand it correctly, at least one 
character of NULL termination is required. Please write this out.

13. Section 7.1.9: Collision SSRC:
       "Each Collision SSRC is
       included repeatedly in Collision sub-report blocks and sent at
       least five times."

Didn't we in Minneapolis discuss this and come to the conclusion that we 
did not need to repeat it five times. Instead one reports it as long as 
the collision exist.

14. Section 7.1.9., collision SSRC, strange formatting on the last line 
of the paragraph.

15. Section 7.1.11: RTCP bandwidth:
      "This is a fraction value indicating a percentage of the
       session bandwidth, expressed as a fixed-point number with the
       binary point at the left edge of the field."

I think that session bandwidth is a bit unclear here, do you refer to 
the RTP session bandwidth or the total RTCP bandwidth?

16. Section 7.1.11: I think you should take a little more care to avoid 
splitting figures by page breaks.

17. Section 7.1.12: When is this expected to be used. When will any 
receiver in the RTP session not receive the SR of a sender? I think that 
  any SR will need to be forwarded to the receivers for synchronization 
reasons. Thus I do not understand why explicit notification of the 
number of senders are needed.

18. Section 7.2, third paragraph: "If both are included, the Receiver 
RTCP Bandwidth sub-report block MUST take precedence." Isn't SHALL a 
better word in this context?

19. Section 7.2, seventh paragraph: May a sender of sub-report block 
perform differentiated reporting using multiple report blocks, for 
example report your appendix example in this way.
sub-report 1
min 0
max 8
NDB=3

sub-report 2
min 9
max 19
NDB 11

sub-report 3
min 20
max 39
NDB 5

I think a sentence making this explicitly allowed or disallowed would be 
good.

20. Section 10.1: The SDP attribute is missing formal declaration, and 
registration. Is is allowed to be extended?

21. Section 11.7.1, bullet B. RTSP could also use S/MIME. Currently 
neither S/MIME nor TSL or SSL is defined for RTSP.

22. In the reference section all references from 10 and onwards are 
missing space between numbering and author.

23. Section 16.4. What is really X? When I read it I interpreted "X 
values indicate loss percentage reported," as meaning that X was 
expressed in X/100 packet losses, instead of the X/256 that it really 
is. Maybe not using "percentage" could make this clear.

24. IPR and Copyright Notice needs to use the new boiler plate from RFC 
3667 & 3668.


Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 09:55:49 -0800
To: "Amir Wolf" <Amir.Wolf@emblaze.com>
From: Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>
Subject: Re: [AVT] RE: draft-ietf-avt-rtp-h264-03.doc question
Cc: "Magnus Westerlund" <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>,
        "IETF AVT WG" <avt@ietf.org>
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Hi Amir, and AVTers,

There is a procedural and a technical aspect in this thread, and I want to 
address both.  First, the technical side:

H.264 carries no timing information in-band.  In particular, it does not 
carry information about skipped pictures, the way older video standards did 
this using the TR (there are a number of very good reasons for this design 
decision, but discussing them here would take a little bit too far).  That 
is, if we were aggregating pictures in a form of an STAP (or the way 
RFC3016 is doing it) we would not know when to display them.  Hence we will 
need a modified version of MTAPs for any form of aggregation.

The overhead of an MTAP16 aggregation unit is 5 bytes, and could possibly 
reduced to 4 bytes if we were adding an MTAP16 without DON.  Either number 
sounds awfully close to the size of compressed headers on the 3GPP access 
link.  In the core network -- who cares?  Also, my gut feeling is that the 
header compression of the MTAP packet itself would likely be less efficient 
than the one of the single NALU packets as their content is less 
predictable, which could render aggregation even more questionable.

Now the procedural side:

Please let me summarize my understanding of this thread:
a) Amir suggests there is a valid application for multiple pictures in an 
MTAP without DON (IMHO questionable, see above)
b) that application, if valid, could be equally well served with MTAPs with 
DON, with minimal additional overhead,
d) There is an ongoing discussion in 3GPP on many aspects of the use of 
H.264, including the use of MTAPs with DON

Out of this I see two solutions:

1. 3GPP mandates or recommends the use MTAPs with DON for low bitrate 
applications, but possibly restricts the functionality of this powerful 
tool to whatever they deem useful.  Understand, any form of restriction is 
not my personal recommendation -- one would indeed loose a lot of carefully 
worked out functionality when doing so -- but if a group is feeling that a 
certain tool is too complex in terms of hard-, soft-, or brainware, then 
let them do it.  I believe Miska is at the meeting Magnus has mentioned, 
hence assistance can be provided to put such restrictions in appropriate 
language.
2. We add syntax to support exactly what Amir wants (new MTAP types), so to 
act pro-actively on the ongoing discussions in 3GPP.  the authors, among 
themselves, have already had this discussion and found it very tricky.

Needless to say, I would opt for the first option.

Stephan

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Magnus Westerlund [mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com]
> > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 4:26 PM
> > To: Amir Wolf
> > Cc: IETF AVT WG
> > Subject: Re: draft-ietf-avt-rtp-h264-03.doc question
> >
> >
> > Hi Amir,
> >
> > Sorry, for misunderstanding. I thought the problem was the overhead
> > associated with using STAP-B, instead of using STAP-As. However as I
> > understand your problem is that you like to use MTAPs also in
> > Non-Interleaved mode.
> >
> > We have discussed this setup among the authors. The reason
> > why it is not
> > included as I can find it is captured in this explanation by Miska:
> >
> > "Regarding MTAPs with DON: The only scenario where MTAPs
> > without DON can
> > be used is when several pictures (access units) are encapsulated in
> > their decoding order to an MTAP to drop the packet header overhead
> > compared to STAP-based encapsulation. This requires either a very low
> > bitrate or large MTU size, neither of which is very likely.
> > All the use
> > cases presented in the specification require the use of DON
> > with MTAPs.
> > Thus, I suggest allowing MTAPs only with DON."
> >
> > What is your opinion about this?
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Magnus
> >
> > --
> >
> > Magnus Westerlund
> >
> > Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
> > Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
> > S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
> >
> >
> > This communication is confidential and intended solely for
> > the addressee(s). Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or
> > distribution is prohibited. If you believe this message has
> > been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by
> > replying to this transmission and delete the message without
> > disclosing it. Thank you.
> >
> > E-mail including attachments is susceptible to data
> > corruption, interruption, unauthorized amendment, tampering
> > and viruses, and we only send and receive e-mails on the
> > basis that we are not liable for any such corruption,
> > interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or any
> > consequences thereof.
> >
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>Audio/Video Transport Working Group
>avt@ietf.org
>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt


_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



From exim@www1.ietf.org  Tue Feb 24 05:05:50 2004
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Subject: RE: [AVT] RE: draft-ietf-avt-rtp-h264-03.doc question
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 12:03:34 +0200
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From: "Amir Wolf" <Amir.Wolf@emblaze.com>
To: "Stephan Wenger" <stewe@stewe.org>
Cc: "Magnus Westerlund" <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>,
        "IETF AVT WG" <avt@ietf.org>
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Hi Stephan,
I am not suggesting any limitations,
on the contrary,
To my opinion the current specification is somehow limiting implementers =
of Non-Interleaved mode not to use MTAPs.
As the packetization-mode parameter in the SDP, having the value of 1 =
forbids using MTAPs which might be very useful also for Non-Interleaved =
mode.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephan Wenger [mailto:stewe@stewe.org]
> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 7:56 PM
> To: Amir Wolf
> Cc: Magnus Westerlund; IETF AVT WG
> Subject: Re: [AVT] RE: draft-ietf-avt-rtp-h264-03.doc question
>=20
>=20
> Hi Amir, and AVTers,
>=20
> There is a procedural and a technical aspect in this thread,=20
> and I want to=20
> address both.  First, the technical side:
>=20
> H.264 carries no timing information in-band.  In particular,=20
> it does not=20
> carry information about skipped pictures, the way older video=20
> standards did=20
> this using the TR (there are a number of very good reasons=20
> for this design=20
> decision, but discussing them here would take a little bit=20
> too far).  That=20
> is, if we were aggregating pictures in a form of an STAP (or the way=20
> RFC3016 is doing it) we would not know when to display them. =20
> Hence we will=20
> need a modified version of MTAPs for any form of aggregation.
>=20
> The overhead of an MTAP16 aggregation unit is 5 bytes, and=20
> could possibly=20
> reduced to 4 bytes if we were adding an MTAP16 without DON. =20
> Either number=20
> sounds awfully close to the size of compressed headers on the=20
> 3GPP access=20
> link.  In the core network -- who cares?  Also, my gut=20
> feeling is that the=20
> header compression of the MTAP packet itself would likely be=20
> less efficient=20
> than the one of the single NALU packets as their content is less=20
> predictable, which could render aggregation even more questionable.
>=20
> Now the procedural side:
>=20
> Please let me summarize my understanding of this thread:
> a) Amir suggests there is a valid application for multiple=20
> pictures in an=20
> MTAP without DON (IMHO questionable, see above)
> b) that application, if valid, could be equally well served=20
> with MTAPs with=20
> DON, with minimal additional overhead,
> d) There is an ongoing discussion in 3GPP on many aspects of=20
> the use of=20
> H.264, including the use of MTAPs with DON
>=20
> Out of this I see two solutions:
>=20
> 1. 3GPP mandates or recommends the use MTAPs with DON for low bitrate=20
> applications, but possibly restricts the functionality of=20
> this powerful=20
> tool to whatever they deem useful.  Understand, any form of=20
> restriction is=20
> not my personal recommendation -- one would indeed loose a=20
> lot of carefully=20
> worked out functionality when doing so -- but if a group is=20
> feeling that a=20
> certain tool is too complex in terms of hard-, soft-, or=20
> brainware, then=20
> let them do it.  I believe Miska is at the meeting Magnus has=20
> mentioned,=20
> hence assistance can be provided to put such restrictions in=20
> appropriate=20
> language.
> 2. We add syntax to support exactly what Amir wants (new MTAP=20
> types), so to=20
> act pro-actively on the ongoing discussions in 3GPP.  the=20
> authors, among=20
> themselves, have already had this discussion and found it very tricky.
>=20
> Needless to say, I would opt for the first option.
>=20
> Stephan
>=20
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Magnus Westerlund [mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com]
> > > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 4:26 PM
> > > To: Amir Wolf
> > > Cc: IETF AVT WG
> > > Subject: Re: draft-ietf-avt-rtp-h264-03.doc question
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Amir,
> > >
> > > Sorry, for misunderstanding. I thought the problem was=20
> the overhead
> > > associated with using STAP-B, instead of using STAP-As.=20
> However as I
> > > understand your problem is that you like to use MTAPs also in
> > > Non-Interleaved mode.
> > >
> > > We have discussed this setup among the authors. The reason
> > > why it is not
> > > included as I can find it is captured in this explanation=20
> by Miska:
> > >
> > > "Regarding MTAPs with DON: The only scenario where MTAPs
> > > without DON can
> > > be used is when several pictures (access units) are=20
> encapsulated in
> > > their decoding order to an MTAP to drop the packet header overhead
> > > compared to STAP-based encapsulation. This requires=20
> either a very low
> > > bitrate or large MTU size, neither of which is very likely.
> > > All the use
> > > cases presented in the specification require the use of DON
> > > with MTAPs.
> > > Thus, I suggest allowing MTAPs only with DON."
> > >
> > > What is your opinion about this?
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > Magnus
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Magnus Westerlund
> > >
> > > Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
> > >=20
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
> > > Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
> > > S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto:=20
> magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
> > >
> > >
> > > This communication is confidential and intended solely for
> > > the addressee(s). Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or
> > > distribution is prohibited. If you believe this message has
> > > been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by
> > > replying to this transmission and delete the message without
> > > disclosing it. Thank you.
> > >
> > > E-mail including attachments is susceptible to data
> > > corruption, interruption, unauthorized amendment, tampering
> > > and viruses, and we only send and receive e-mails on the
> > > basis that we are not liable for any such corruption,
> > > interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or any
> > > consequences thereof.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Audio/Video Transport Working Group
> >avt@ietf.org
> >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt
>=20
>=20

_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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Subject: [AVT] Re: ATRAC Family Payload update
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Magnus,

Thanks for your help.  Responses inlined:

> Also does a specific channel assignment rule for the number exist? Are  
> you using the one in RFC 3551 with extension for 7 and 8 channels?

The channel assignments charted in RFC 3551 don't really work for us,  
since for one thing an LFE channel is not specified.  So I'll add a  
similar chart for channel assignments in the draft.  Thanks for  
pointing this out.

> Also I think you should consider how you intend to use the frame  
> sample  size and the frame length parameters. In what directions does  
> they in fact apply between a sender and receiver?

This information is needed to initialize the decoder on the receiving  
side; rather than send it every packet, we thought making it a MIME  
parameter would allow for its use during SDP negotiations.  Is there  
something more we need to consider?

> How common is it expected to change the number of channels in a RTP  
> stream, i.e. for the same SSRC? If it possible to change at all, have  
> you considered the problems, see my mail about this.
> http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/working-groups/avt/current/ 
> msg03384.html

Our current thinking is to use translators and perhaps mixers to handle  
changes in the number of channels.  Our initial payload proposals which  
we have since dropped did try to allow for channel changes mid-stream,  
but we have decided to forgo that feature.  Basically, we were trying  
to project a payload format that assumed a scalable codec onto a  
non-scalable one (in the strictest sense, anyways).  So at the moment  
we do not plan on having the number of channels change w/o a  
re-negotiation via SDP.

> The problem I see is that Frame Offset if used needs to be defined for  
> each frame in the payload. However what I understand it only occurs  
> one in the payload header. Thus I can't understand why one can't use  
> the timestamp to place the data correct.

Just to be clear, multiple audio frames in a packet (with a maximum of  
16) must be stored sequentially.  So I'm not quite sure why you think  
each frame needs the FrOff field....hm... Since our timestamp will be  
sample based, our initial thinking was to have sequential packets  
increase their timestamp by the number of samples sent in the previous  
packet.  We were thinking the timestamp should basically not be  
manipulated beyond increasing it as necessary for each succeeding  
packet (shouldn't there be at least one field that is atomically  
increasing?)  Thus, when sending redundant frames, we have a field to  
indicate how many 'previous frames' are being sent instead of changing  
the timestamp.  Since a packet can only hold up to 16 audio frames  
(where a single frame can hold up to 1 to 8 channels of encoded audio  
-- see next response), there is a maximum difference possible between  
the "current timestamp" and the largest allowable "rewind".  By doing  
this, we ensure the stream will progress; if we allow manipulations of  
the timestamp, who knows what some crazy implementor may do :)  Also  
keep in mind that we are allowing previous frames to be followed by new  
frames, all in the same packet.  Maybe this ASCII visualization will  
help:

|---Fr1--|--Fr2--|--Fr3--|--Fr4--|--Fr5--|       Nth Packet

                           |--Fr3--|--Fr4--|--Fr5--|--Fr6--|--Fr7--|     
N+1th Packet

In this case, the "N+1th" packet would have it's FrOff field = 3, since  
the timestamp in packet "N+1" would indicate where Fr6 should start.

I suppose there are a few ways to do the same thing.... is there  
something we are missing with this approach?


> When sending multiple channels are they in a single block of data or  
> are they sent in multiple blocks of data, each contains a channel or  
> two? If  they are split, how does one determine which channel the data  
> belongs to.

multiple channels in any variety are sent as single blocks of data;  
there is no interleaving of encoded audio frames, so there is no need  
to worry about which "block of data" is "which channel".  This will  
probably be a point of confusion for anyone who keeps our previous (now  
dropped) payload format in mind.  We have completely scrapped that  
implementation.  Our main goal at this point is to keep things very  
simple while still allowing streaming of multichannel data.  I will  
clarify this in the draft (as well as how timestamps are determined,  
etc.)

btw, when would you like to schedule our meeting outside the avt  
session?
Oh, and by when should we get you our presentation material?

Thanks again,
Matt

----------------------------------------
Matthew M.I. Romaine
IMNC Audio Codec Group
Sony Corporation
phone: 03-5448-6065
fax: 03-5448-5617
----------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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Hi,

Anyone doing a presentation at the AVT WG is required to send their 
presentation to both chairs at the latest 19.00 pm korean time on Sunday 
the 29th. A summary of the issues to be discussed shall also be sent to 
the WG mailing list by then.

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com



This communication is confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s). Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you believe this message has been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by replying to this transmission and delete the message without disclosing it. Thank you.

E-mail including attachments is susceptible to data corruption, interruption, unauthorized amendment, tampering and viruses, and we only send and receive e-mails on the basis that we are not liable for any such corruption, interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or any consequences thereof.


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Hi,

I would like to add that presentations is acceptable in PDF or 
powerpoint. Please avoid using anything other than normal fonts, 
especially company specific fonts. We have had problems earlier with 
showing them.

/Magnus

Magnus Westerlund (KI/EAB) wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Anyone doing a presentation at the AVT WG is required to send their 
> presentation to both chairs at the latest 19.00 pm korean time on Sunday
> 
> the 29th. A summary of the issues to be discussed shall also be sent to 
> the WG mailing list by then.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Magnus Westerlund
> 
> Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
> Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
> S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
> 
> 
> 
> This communication is confidential and intended solely for the
> addressee(s). Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution
> is prohibited. If you believe this message has been sent to you in
> error, please notify the sender by replying to this transmission and
> delete the message without disclosing it. Thank you.
> 
> E-mail including attachments is susceptible to data corruption,
> interruption, unauthorized amendment, tampering and viruses, and we only
> send and receive e-mails on the basis that we are not liable for any
> such corruption, interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or any
> consequences thereof.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Audio/Video Transport Working Group
> avt@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt
> 

-- 

Magnus Westerlund

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com


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_______________________________________________
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Subject: [AVT] Seoul-Summaries for rtp-midi and contrans I-Ds ...
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Hi everyone,

	I won't be in Seoul next week, but as the
preliminary agenda shows:

 > Updates on behalf of author   (Chairs)      5
 >
 >        draft-ietf-avt-midi-rtp-01.txt
 >        draft-ietf-avt-midi-guidelines-01.txt
 >        draft-ietf-avt-rtp-framing-contrans-00.txt

	The chairs will be presenting updates on
my I-Ds for me (thanks!).   By the way, note my
correction above, an incorrect name for the
contrans I-D appeared in the posted agenda.

	Here are my summaries for the I-Ds:

 >  draft-ietf-avt-midi-rtp-01.txt
 >  draft-ietf-avt-midi-guidelines-01.txt

	These are both "candidate Last Calls".  When I
released them, I considered them to be ready for
Last Call, and asked IETFers and MMA-folks to
seriously read them over and send final comments.

	The goal is that the next version be the real
"Last Call" documents -- so, please read the documents
over carefully and send comments soon!   Don't
feel obligated to read the whole thing -- for example,
Offer/Answer-philes would do a service by reading
the SDP descriptions in pages 20-26 and 68-96 of
the format document.

	For:

 >  draft-ietf-avt-rtp-framing-contrans-00.txt

	I'm awaiting MMUSIC's decisions on comedia --
since this I-D references comedia normatively and
uses its syntax in examples, it makes sense to wait
until comedia reaches its final form, and adapt the
contrans I-D to fit it.

---
John Lazzaro
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~lazzaro
lazzaro [at] cs [dot] berkeley [dot] edu
---


_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
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From: Ladan Gharai <ladan@isi.edu>
Subject: Re: [AVT] Comments on draft-gharai-avt-tfrc-profile-00.txt
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:44:42 -0500
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Magnus:

Thank you for your input. Please see comments inline.

On Feb 20, 2004, at 10:23 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote:

> Hi,
>
> This draft is a very interesting piece of work. It contains a number 
> of interesting issues. Of which the first one is:
>
> Should we do this work in AVT? My personal opinion is that doing this 
> is probably a good thing. I am not especially optimistic about a quick 
> deployment of DCCP thus making it possible to use TFRC that way.
>
> I think that AVT is the right group for doing the profile as we know 
> RTP and RTCP best. However we will need TFRC expertise to join AVT so 
> that we don't miss some important limitation and ensure that TFRC will 
> work well.
>
> This is all something that will need discussion with our AD. Before we 
> can do this work we will need a recharter.
>
>
> Further issues that will need to be discussed is:
>
> - I think that using a profile for this is probably the right way. Not 
> for the reason of the header changes which would make it required, 
> rather for the signalling that both end points needs to support the 
> feedback gathering and reporting correctly. This will clearly increase 
> the number of profiles with 2-4 new profiles. The reason is that the 
> old or on the way profiles needs to be expressed combined with 
> congestion control. I would think that combinations with SRTP and AVPF 
> is probably needed.
>
> - I think the header extensions proposed should be reconsidered. 
> Adding extra overhead if not really needed is not a good thing. As 
> also expressed in the draft there seems to be alternatives to the two 
> fields.

    I agree in the general principle of not adding overhead to the RTP 
header - but it should not be avoided at the cost of increasing 
bandwidth  on the reverse path.
>
> Transmission timestamp. First it is possible to use sender side 
> measurements to perform the RTT measurements. Secondly the field does 
> not need to be 32 bits. I think somewhere around 24-16 bits is 
> sufficient. The only reason to add this field in my view seems to be 
> the extended feedback it could provide. We could for example fix the 
> jitter calculations by basing them on this field, instead of the 
> display timestamp.

    The main purpose of the transmission timestamp is  to facilitate  
computation of  the loss event rate at the receiver. Clearly,  it can 
also be used for RTT, jitter and other calculations.

    As to the size of the field (if I have done the math correctly) at 
90kHhz  a 16bit timestamp would wrap around in less than a second,  not 
sufficient.  A  24bit field would wrap around in 186sec, which should 
be sufficient, as the loss event calculations are typically done over 8 
to 16 TFRC loss intervals.

>
> The RTT field. To this field there are multiple alternatives. First, 
> run RTCP XR RTT measurements in each RTCP packet from the receiver. 
> Thus enabling the client to measure the RTT by itself. This would also 
> be consistent if a receiver is a sender also. Second alternative would 
> be to let the sender report the RTT to the receiver in each RTCP 
> packet from the sender.

Two factors influence the approach taken for RTT measurement: 1)  how 
often does the RTT need to be updated? and 2) how much extra bandwidth 
is being incurred on the reverse (or forward) path?
     While the current approach of adding 32bits to the RTP payload is 
undesirable due to overhead (perhaps we can allocate 22 to the 
transmission timestamp and 10 to the RTT?) it has the added simplicity 
of continuously  updating the receiver and not requiring running RTCP 
XR RTT measurements or having the sender also generate a RTCP packets 
every RTT.


> - I think extending the receiver report is a bad choice. I think 
> putting this extended report in another RTCP packet type is a better 
> choice. One alternative to a new RTCP packet type would be to use XR, 
> where there is a lot of extra code points.

   Both defining a new packet type and extending the receiver reports 
are good options. My choice of receiver reports was influenced by 
RFC3550's  recommendation of extensions over new packet types (section 
6.4.3)

>
> - Further the changes in the timing rules will need to be more closely 
> considered. The profile will basically require that one send at least 
> one RTCP packet per RTT. Thus the normal RTCP bandwidth assignment 
> rules goes mostly out of the window. Would also needs to consider how 
> one can use bandwidth limits or something other to determine how often 
> RTCP packets with more data can be sent. If one needs to send on RTCP 
> every RTT the RTCP bandwidth becomes dependent on the RTCP packet size 
> and the RTT only. Should some type of feedback path congestion control 
> be included in this? Is it time to start sequence number the RTCP 
> packets to determine the loss rate in the RTCP channel?
>
> - The proposal needs signalling for a number of attributes. This would 
> also need to be worked out when we know what needs signalling.
>
> Based on this, I would say that this is a significant amount of work 
> for the WG to undertake. Thus I would like to hear the opinion of the 
> participants in the WG about it.
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
> Magnus Westerlund
>
> Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
> Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
> S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
>
>
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From: Ladan Gharai <ladan@isi.edu>
Subject: Re: [AVT] New Draft: RTP Profile for TCP Friendly Rate Control
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:45:02 -0500
To: Damon Lanphear <damonlan@real.com>
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On Feb 11, 2004, at 5:27 PM, Damon Lanphear wrote:

> It should be possible to implement a sender based variant of TFRC 
> using the existing set of RTP protocol .  The RTT can be deduced from 
> the RTCP RR at the sender, as can a loss event mapping.  A loss event 
> is defined by TFRC as one or more packet losses in a single RTT.  If 
> RTCP RRs are received once per RTT, then the loss event rate can be 
> reasonably deduced using the difference in the RTCP RR cumulative loss 
> field between consecuative RTCP RRs.

  Damon:

While I like the idea of using the RTCP RR for computing the loss event 
rate it raises two issues. First, TFRC Loss Intervals do not correlate 
exactly to the RTT, however I do not have any data as to how sensitive 
TFRC is to the difference between these two? Secondly, it would put the 
burden of computing the loss event rate on the sender - as opposed to 
the receiver, as intended in RFC3448.

The RTT calculations can be done by either the sender or receiver - but 
both the sender (for rate computation)  and the receiver (for loss 
event calculation -or- as in your scheme to send RTCP packets) need 
know what the current  RTT is. If  the RTT is computed by the 
sender/receiver, some mechanism is needed to convey it to the 
receiver/sender.

Ladan
>
> Ladan Gharai wrote:
>
>> Dear AVT'ers:
>>
>> I have just submitted a new draft 
>> draft-gharai-avt-tfrc-profile-00.txt to the Internet Drafts editor. 
>> The draft is also available on line at 
>> http://www.east.isi.edu/projects/MACC/tfrc-profile.txt
>>
>> This is a preliminary draft for a RTP profile for TFRC,  "RTP/AVPCC". 
>> Please read and comment on the draft, in particular on the following 
>> two items:
>>
>> (I)     A TFRC receiver depends on  receiving  estimates of the 
>> current RTT and the send time of each RTP packet, in order to compute 
>> its loss event rate.
>>         A simplistic approach to providing this information to the 
>> receiver is to add fixed fields to the RTP data header. This approach 
>> has a number of draw backs: (1) current implementations may not be 
>> able to parse such packets; (2) additional overhead of 8 octets in 
>> each data packet.
>>        Ideally, a TFRC receiver would be able to make do with the 
>> standard RTP time stamp (which denotes sampling or presentation time) 
>> - and would be able to compute the RTT itself (with the added bonus 
>> of also providing it to the TFRC sender).
>>        This raises two questions: (1) does the RTP time stamp suffice 
>> for loss event calculations? and (2) is it possible to have the 
>> receiver compute RTTs?
>>
>>
>> (II)      A  TFRC sender requires feedback at least once per RTT.  
>> Depending on the data rate of a flow and the RTT, this TFRC 
>> requirement may result in violation of RTCPs minimum interval and 
>> bandwidth restrictions/recommendations. According to RFC3550  a 
>> profile MAY specify control traffic bandwidth as a separate session 
>> parameter. Is there a similar provision for profiles where the scaled 
>> minimum RTCP interval does not suffice? (i.e. where does the profile 
>> state that it cannot abide by the recommended minimum RTCP  
>> interval?)
>>
>> Ladan Gharai
>> http://www.east.isi.edu/~ladan
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audio/Video Transport Working Group
>> avt@ietf.org
>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt
>
>
>


_______________________________________________
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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Hi Ladan,

comments inline.

Ladan Gharai wrote:

> 
> On Feb 20, 2004, at 10:23 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote:
>>
>> - I think the header extensions proposed should be reconsidered. 
>> Adding extra overhead if not really needed is not a good thing. As 
>> also expressed in the draft there seems to be alternatives to the two 
>> fields.
> 
> 
>    I agree in the general principle of not adding overhead to the RTP 
> header - but it should not be avoided at the cost of increasing 
> bandwidth  on the reverse path.
> 

I think the trade off would need analyses. For the first would using 
RTCP with extensions be sufficient for TFRC's need? Secondly how big 
overhead would really be introduced in either solution. Third some of 
the RTCP overhead would be in both directions. The reason I consider the 
trade-off is the RTP to RTCP rates. Without TFRC there will normally be 
rather many RTP packets for every RTCP packet. With one RTCP per RTT 
this will no longer be general true, risk of low RTT transport plus few 
RTP packets could at worst case be less than one RTP packet per RTCP 
packet. RTT 10 ms means that one must send 100 RTP packets per second to 
have one RTP packet per RTCP packet. Thus the overhead trade off is a 
bit harder. However at the same time you will need to send one receiver 
to sender feedback message every RTT anyway.

>>
>> Transmission timestamp. First it is possible to use sender side 
>> measurements to perform the RTT measurements. Secondly the field does 
>> not need to be 32 bits. I think somewhere around 24-16 bits is 
>> sufficient. The only reason to add this field in my view seems to be 
>> the extended feedback it could provide. We could for example fix the 
>> jitter calculations by basing them on this field, instead of the 
>> display timestamp.
> 
> 
>    The main purpose of the transmission timestamp is  to facilitate  
> computation of  the loss event rate at the receiver. Clearly,  it can 
> also be used for RTT, jitter and other calculations.

Having looked at RFC 3448 I see that a transmission timestamp seems to 
be needed for determining what loss event each loss should belong to. 
However the resolution necessary for this purpose seems to be four 
increments per interval. Thus a 32-bit timestamp seems unnecessary 
large, more about this below.

> 
>    As to the size of the field (if I have done the math correctly) at 
> 90kHhz  a 16bit timestamp would wrap around in less than a second,  not 
> sufficient.  A  24bit field would wrap around in 186sec, which should be 
> sufficient, as the loss event calculations are typically done over 8 to 
> 16 TFRC loss intervals.

But you used a 90 kHz clock. My idea for this field would be to use a 
fixed clock rate, not connect it to the media clock rate at all. Thus 
one can ensure one has sufficient resolution, while being able to more 
efficiently adapt the size of the field. I think a fixed clock rate of 
somewhere between 1000 and 10000 Hz would be suitable. Input into this 
is certainly a topic of discussion. A quick glance at RFC 3448 seems to 
indicate that this transmission timestamp does not need any huge 
resolution, milliseconds is probably more than sufficient.

As a side note, how does TFRC behaves when the packet transmission rate 
drops below one packet per RTT? I think this case can be rather common 
for local area networks.

> 
>>
>> The RTT field. To this field there are multiple alternatives. First, 
>> run RTCP XR RTT measurements in each RTCP packet from the receiver. 
>> Thus enabling the client to measure the RTT by itself. This would also 
>> be consistent if a receiver is a sender also. Second alternative would 
>> be to let the sender report the RTT to the receiver in each RTCP 
>> packet from the sender.
> 
> 
> Two factors influence the approach taken for RTT measurement: 1)  how 
> often does the RTT need to be updated? and 2) how much extra bandwidth 
> is being incurred on the reverse (or forward) path?
>     While the current approach of adding 32bits to the RTP payload is 
> undesirable due to overhead (perhaps we can allocate 22 to the 
> transmission timestamp and 10 to the RTT?) it has the added simplicity 
> of continuously  updating the receiver and not requiring running RTCP XR 
> RTT measurements or having the sender also generate a RTCP packets every 
> RTT.

I understand the reasoning. But don't you anyway needs to send one RTCP 
packet from receiver to sender every RTT to ensure that the sender gets 
feedback for each RTT interval. Thus if this traffic goes there anyway 
and the overhead in RTP or RTCP is on the same order of magnitude, then 
having the necessary information in RTCP would avoid sending it more 
often than needed.

> 
> 
>> - I think extending the receiver report is a bad choice. I think 
>> putting this extended report in another RTCP packet type is a better 
>> choice. One alternative to a new RTCP packet type would be to use XR, 
>> where there is a lot of extra code points.
> 
> 
>   Both defining a new packet type and extending the receiver reports are 
> good options. My choice of receiver reports was influenced by RFC3550's  
> recommendation of extensions over new packet types (section 6.4.3)
> 

In my opinion changing the RR or SR packets creates a higher 
implementation burden thus making the deployment a bit harder. However I 
think this discussion can wait until we know what fields that needs to 
be transported, how often, and how big they are. At that time we will 
have the necessary input into this discussion.


Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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From exim@www1.ietf.org  Wed Feb 25 09:11:42 2004
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From: "Jose Rey" <rey@panasonic.de>
To: <avt@ietf.org>
Cc: "Jan van der Meer" <jan.vandermeer@philips.com>,
        "Dave Singer" <singer@apple.com>,
        "Rolf Hakenberg" <hakenberg@panasonic.de>,
        "Magnus Westerlund" <magnus.westerlund@era.ericsson.se>,
        "Per Frojdh" <per.frojdh@ericsson.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 15:07:25 +0100
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Subject: [AVT] Issues in Timed Text draft
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Hi all,

these are the issues on which I would like to get some feedback
during/before the meeting:

- design rationale: a text sample consists typically of a text string
followed by some modifiers (decoration).  Associated to a text sample there
may be several (or none) sample descriptions.  The draft defines headers to
convey both whole text samples and fragments thereof (note that
fragmentation should be rare).  The draft allows only text string fragments
to be displayed individually. This meaning that if you receive a single text
string fragment out of three you may use/display it.  Unlike the case where
you don't receive some fragment(s) of the decoration: in this case you
SHOULD not use it/them, because it is not required that decoration be
splitted at meaningful boundaries (this was in the -01 draft and thought too
complex for the rare cases of fragmentation). See also section 4.1 in draft.
Comments?

- ordering of text sample contents: the modifier fragments don't contain
timing attributes (because they apply to text strings which already have
them, then why repeat?). Sample descriptions (which may apply to more than
one text sample) don't have them either.  Currently the draft allows to
place these modifier fragments and sample descriptions anywhere and as often
as needed.  This is useful, for example, to specially protect some parts of
the text sample or to send in advance the modifiers of a very long piece of
text. For live streaming this might not be the best method as the timing is
tight but for streaming it is a valid option. Problems with that?
Note that IDs (SIDX) are used to match fragments without timing attributes
to their text samples. See also Section 4.1

- resilient transport: of course apart from repeating the fragments in
different packets as above you may also repeat the packets themselves,
protect them using FEC or retransmit them.  The first two shall be more
apppropriate for streaming scenarios where a pre-determined packetisation
exists previous to transmission. See sections 4.1 and 5.  The implementer
SHALL ensure that the different pieces meet the timing requirements when
they are spread over several packets.

- TYPE=3: the draft explictly prohibits combining text strings and modifiers
in a fragment. The reason is simplicity:  since text strings shall be
capable of being displayed individually it would be necessary to introduce a
field in the header that explicitly says where the first byte of modifiers
is.  This is avoided by forcing the first modifiers fragment to be indicated
by means of a dedicated header type, TYPE=3. See section 4.2. Comments?

- In-band vs. out-of-band: the draft currently specifies two possibilities
to transport sample descriptions: in-band and out-of-band.  While
out-of-band is mandatory, the same does not apply to in-band.  However how
about making the two mandatory? (i.e. header TYPE=5).  At first we thought
of in-band just for live streaming of text.  But it also makes sense for
pre-packaged content. Both mandatory?

- Payload header design (section 4.2): the draft specifies an AU-like
payload structure (similar to RFC3640 for compatibility).  Currently there
are 5 payload header types

TYPE 1 : for whole text samples
|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX|SDUR| 5-7 bytes long

TYPE 2: for text string fragments

|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX|SLEN|SDUR|TOTL|THIS| 8-10 bytes long

TYPE 3&4: for first modifier fragment (TYPE=3) and subsequent fragments.

|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|TOTL|THIS| 2-4 bytes long

TYPE 5: for sample descriptions.

|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX| 2-4 bytes long


One could say that these be reduced to three by making the TOTL/THIS counter
refer to the number of fragments of a text string and modifier boxes in a
text sample instead of the total of fragments, like this:

[NOTE: {} means optional || fixed]

TYPE 1 : for whole text samples and fragments
|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SLEN|SIDX|SDUR|TOTL|THIS| 8-10 bytes long

TYPE 2: for ALL modifier fragments

|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|TOTL|THIS| 2-4 bytes long

TYPE 3: for sample descriptions.

|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX| 2-4 bytes long

The benefit, if any, is that the number of headers is reduced . Some
disadvantages are: an increase in the average header size (assuming that
fragmentation is rare), a more complex use of TOTL/THIS and of the SLEN/LEN
fields.  Another disadvantage is that it should be more costly for RFC 3640
to identify the AUs because TOTL/THIS is in the "AU-data contents" part.

So, at the moment we don't see a clear motivation to change to this header
configuration. Comments?



Thanks for your comments,

-------------------------------
Jose Rey
Mobile Multimedia Team
Panasonic European Labs GmbH
D-63225 Langen, Germany
Tel.:+49-6103-766-134
Fax :+49-6103-766-166
Email: rey@panasonic.de
Visit: www.pel.panasonic.de
-------------------------------


_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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Subject: RE: [AVT] Comments on draft-gharai-avt-tfrc-profile-00.txt
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:42:45 -0500
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Thread-Topic: [AVT] Comments on draft-gharai-avt-tfrc-profile-00.txt
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From: "Phelan, Tom" <tphelan@sonusnet.com>
To: "Magnus Westerlund" <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
Cc: "IETF AVT WG" <avt@ietf.org>
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Hi Magnus,

[Clipped ...]
> As a side note, how does TFRC behaves when the packet=20
> transmission rate=20
> drops below one packet per RTT? I think this case can be=20
> rather common=20
> for local area networks.

When the sender is sending less than one packet per RTT, the receiver =
sends acknowledgements for each received packet, not once per RTT.  If =
the sending rate is less than four times the RTT the sender must be =
careful with its no feedback timer (normally when this timer expires the =
allowed sending rate is halved).

Tom P.

_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [AVT] Re: ATRAC Family Payload update
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Hi,

comments inline.

Matthew Romaine wrote:
> Magnus,
> 
> Thanks for your help.  Responses inlined:
> 
> 
>>Also does a specific channel assignment rule for the number exist? Are
> 
> 
>>you using the one in RFC 3551 with extension for 7 and 8 channels?
> 
> 
> The channel assignments charted in RFC 3551 don't really work for us,  
> since for one thing an LFE channel is not specified.  So I'll add a  
> similar chart for channel assignments in the draft.  Thanks for  
> pointing this out.
> 

Good,

> 
>>Also I think you should consider how you intend to use the frame  
>>sample  size and the frame length parameters. In what directions does
> 
> 
>>they in fact apply between a sender and receiver?
> 
> 
> This information is needed to initialize the decoder on the receiving  
> side; rather than send it every packet, we thought making it a MIME  
> parameter would allow for its use during SDP negotiations.  Is there  
> something more we need to consider?
> 

Not knowing enough about the codec I can't determine what in my opinion 
would be the most suitable place for this information. If the frame 
sample size normal is fixed for a transaction then having it encoded 
through the payload is the correct choice. Otherwise some other 
indication might be more appropriate.

> 
>>How common is it expected to change the number of channels in a RTP  
>>stream, i.e. for the same SSRC? If it possible to change at all, have
> 
> 
>>you considered the problems, see my mail about this.
>>http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/working-groups/avt/current/ 
>>msg03384.html
> 
> 
> Our current thinking is to use translators and perhaps mixers to handle
> 
> changes in the number of channels.  Our initial payload proposals which
> 
> we have since dropped did try to allow for channel changes mid-stream,  
> but we have decided to forgo that feature.  Basically, we were trying  
> to project a payload format that assumed a scalable codec onto a  
> non-scalable one (in the strictest sense, anyways).  So at the moment  
> we do not plan on having the number of channels change w/o a  
> re-negotiation via SDP.
> 

As you do not intend to have channel changes being common I think the 
one PT per channel configuration is the correct choice. Thus one can 
define multiple payload types that maps to different channel 
configurations. Thus a receiver will know of the possibility of 
switching channel information mid session. Of course if one declares 
only one and later needs to change one can in some of the application 
update the SDP.

> 
>>The problem I see is that Frame Offset if used needs to be defined for
> 
> 
>>each frame in the payload. However what I understand it only occurs  
>>one in the payload header. Thus I can't understand why one can't use  
>>the timestamp to place the data correct.
> 
> 
> Just to be clear, multiple audio frames in a packet (with a maximum of  
> 16) must be stored sequentially.  So I'm not quite sure why you think  
> each frame needs the FrOff field....hm... Since our timestamp will be  
> sample based, our initial thinking was to have sequential packets  
> increase their timestamp by the number of samples sent in the previous  
> packet.  We were thinking the timestamp should basically not be  
> manipulated beyond increasing it as necessary for each succeeding  
> packet (shouldn't there be at least one field that is atomically  
> increasing?)  Thus, when sending redundant frames, we have a field to  
> indicate how many 'previous frames' are being sent instead of changing  
> the timestamp.  Since a packet can only hold up to 16 audio frames  
> (where a single frame can hold up to 1 to 8 channels of encoded audio  
> -- see next response), there is a maximum difference possible between  
> the "current timestamp" and the largest allowable "rewind".  By doing  
> this, we ensure the stream will progress; if we allow manipulations of  
> the timestamp, who knows what some crazy implementor may do :)  Also  
> keep in mind that we are allowing previous frames to be followed by new
> 
> frames, all in the same packet.  Maybe this ASCII visualization will  
> help:
> 
> |---Fr1--|--Fr2--|--Fr3--|--Fr4--|--Fr5--|       Nth Packet
> 
>                            |--Fr3--|--Fr4--|--Fr5--|--Fr6--|--Fr7--|
> 
> N+1th Packet
> 
> In this case, the "N+1th" packet would have it's FrOff field = 3, since
> 
> the timestamp in packet "N+1" would indicate where Fr6 should start.
> 
> I suppose there are a few ways to do the same thing.... is there  
> something we are missing with this approach?
> 

Okay, now I understand your approach. I think the main problem with this 
approach is that the RTP timestamp does not reflect the oldest data in 
the packet. I think there are more simple ways informing the client what 
buffer needs a stream with redundancy would need. So I would be more 
interested in using a TS that actually points on earliest frame in the 
packet. If you are looking on your example from a TS perspective it 
looks like this:

#1  #2  #3  #4  #5                   TS = 4
         #3  #4  #5  #6  #7           TS = 6
                 #5  #6  #7  #8  #9   TS = 8


If one uses a earliest possible scheme it would instead look like:

#1  #2  #3  #4  #5                   TS = 1
         #3  #4  #5  #6  #7           TS = 3
                 #5  #6  #7  #8  #9   TS = 5

In this case one could signal max-overlapp=3 to tell the receiver that 
this may contain redundant data up to 3 frames old, and thus buffer for 
a minimum of 3 frames to be able to take advantage of the data.

So in my opinion this bits are basically wasted. They do not give any 
advantage which can't not be achieved through other means without 
spending bits in the payload header.


Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
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Subject: [AVT] Comments on draft-rey-avt-3gpp-timed-text-02.txtU
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Hi Jose,

Here is a number of comments on your draft. I like this much more than 
the previous proposal.

1. In the next update don't forget to update all the boilerplate for IPR 
and copyright according to RFC 3667 and 3668.

2. Abstract: "3GPP timed
    text is time-lined decorated text media format whose defined storage
    format is the ISO (International Standardisation Organisation) Base
    Media File Format."

This is not correct. the 3GPP Timed text is stored in the 3GP file 
format, which is based on the ISO Base Media File Format.

3. section 2, second paragraph: "3GPP timed text is a 3GP file format 
for time-lined decorated text specified in [1]." I would say that "3GPP 
Timed Text is a media format for time-lined decorated text, with a 
defined storage in the 3GP file format."

4. Section 2.1, bullet 3: "This is especially useful for live streaming 
(where the contents are not known a priori) or to protect this 
information through other mechanisms like FEC [4] or retransmission 
[13]." The second part of the sentence is not correct. The possibility 
to protect the important sample descriptions are not a reason for having 
in-band sample descriptions. So please split it out, as FEC and 
retransmission is means to make it work.

5. Section 3, first bullet. "A text sample contains a text length 
indication, a text string, and zero or several modifier boxes (the 
decoration of the text)." Is not "zero or more" a better term, or is it 
impossible to have only one modifier box?

6. Section 3, bullet list. Please adjust the formatting, having the 
lines after the first be adjusted further in so the "-" mark i alone at 
the left makes it more clear that it is a bullet list.

7. Section 3, second bullet: "A fragment may either text strings and 
modifiers or just one of these." This sentence is very strange.

8. Section 4, Marker bit: The current definition is unclear if one only 
has a single complete text sample, should one have the marker bit set or 
not.

9. Section 4, Timestamp: By putting the word "earliest" in the first 
sentence of the timestamp paragraph, you will not have to redefine the 
initial meaning a few lines down and it fits both single and multi 
sample cases. I would also think about using normative SHALL or MUST in 
the definition to make readers aware of that this is something important 
to follow.

10. Section 4, Timestamp: "The value timestamp clockrate is copied 
directly from the 3GP file: the value of "timescale" in the Media Header 
Box is to be used." Is this a SHALL or SHOULD? With the RTP payload it 
will be possible to create 3GPP Timed text without ever storing it 
first. Therefore I think that some general guidance on timestamp rates 
should be written. Also, is the clock rate in the 3GP file fixed or can 
it be different between different files.

11. Section 4.1: "It appears more appropriate to encode text samples 
without taking the path MTU into account." I think that it most 
applications is will be rather easy to ensure that created samples are 
not to big.

12. section 4.1, Third bullet: "- it is RECOMMENDED to include as fewer 
text sample fragments as possible in an RTP packet." First the language 
is wrong "few" instead of "fewer". Secondly, should one really include 
multiple fragments in a RTP packet. Isn't it much better to ensure that 
one does not fragment.

13. Section 4.2: It is not clear if the payload are formed: header 
header data data, or header data header data. could you please clarify.

14. Section 4.2, the payload header? Is there a reason why the reserved 
bits are left most in the first byte? Otherwise I would recommend them 
to be placed between UL and TYPE. That way the bits could in the future 
either be used to extend the TYPE field or for more indication bits.

15. Section 4.2, L definition. "By default this flag is reset." I guess 
that reset is having the bit take the value of 0. Please define reset if 
you are going to use it.

16. Section 4.2, The L bit. Is is really worth having the length field 
as a variable field. It will be needed in all cases except when only a 
single data unit is in a packet. Thus I don't think the overhead from 
these two bytes are in anyway excessive. The number of RTP packets from 
timed text are rather few. In a subtitling usage, their is only a single 
new sample every few seconds. I think simplicity is an advantage here.

17. Section 4.2, SIDX: "To allow SIDX wrap-up, clients SHALL keep as 
valid only those values of SIDX outside of the interval (X+128) modulo 
255, where X is the last SIDX value received." I think you need to 
specify it as an interval not a single value which (X+128) modulo 255 
are. I think you should define this as a client shall only use the 
sample entries that are (X-127)..(X) modulo 255.

18. Section 4.2, SDUR: "However, samples of unknown duration MAY precede 
sample descriptions, as they have no duration." I think duration is the 
wrong word here. Sample descriptions is lacking timing information. They 
are simply sent out and exist.

19. Section 4.2: I think that making each type format its own 
sub-chapter and giving the name would increase the readability.

20. section 4.2: Type=2: If you make the Len field permanent I think the 
SDUR field should be shifted left one byte, the SLEN moved to the end 
and the TOTAL|This byte precede the SDUR field, that way one allows for 
easier processing of the fields on a 32 bit machine.

21. Section 4. type 2, TOTAL and THIS. I think the rules for how one can 
send fragments in relation to other packets needs to be clarified. In 
general I think the fragmentation concept could be explained on a more 
general level. The concept of having different types for splitting text 
and modifiers and that different rules apply could be explained prior to 
defining the boxes.

22. section 8. Please add an statement that unknown parameters SHALL be 
ignored. That way there is some chance of extending the format in a 
predictable way in the future.

23. Section 8. The reference to the timed text specification. Are you 
referring to the release 5 or release 6. As the release 6 is not yet 
frozen, how is the intended timing between the payload format and the 
timed text specification for release 6?

24. Section 9. You have two definitions of how the parameters intended 
for the "a=fmtp" line shall be mapped. Ether you keep the two line 
stating "the REQUIRED .." and "The OPTIONAL", or you use only the 
following line.

25. Section 9.1, the mapping of the clockrate is unclear. It does not 
state exactly to what the 3GP file formats "timescale" value shall be 
copied to. Also must this really be done, one could translate all times 
if desired.

26. Section 9. Missing Offer Answer section.

27. Section 11. Please write the IANA section as a statement what IANA 
must do. In this case it seems appropriate to write. "IANA is request to 
register one MIME type (3GPP-tt) as defined by section 8."

28. Section 12. Are there any data in the 3GPP timed text media format 
that can be introduced that would result in significant higher 
processing requirements for a receiver, thus enabling DOS attacks?


Cheers

Magnus





-- 

Magnus Westerlund

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
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Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
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From: "Arnoud van Wijk" <a.vwijk@viataal.nl>
To: "'Jose Rey'" <rey@panasonic.de>, <avt@ietf.org>
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Subject: RE: [AVT] Issues in Timed Text draft
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Umm this timed text, what is it for exactly?
Text telephony?
Or?

Thanks

Drs. Arnoud A. T. van Wijk
Viataal
Research & Development
Afdeling RDS
Theerestraat 42
5271 GD Sint-Michielsgestel
The Netherlands. 
Mobile: +31651921948
International text telephone: +31735588408


-----Original Message-----
From: avt-admin@ietf.org [mailto:avt-admin@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jose Rey
Sent: woensdag 25 februari 2004 15:07
To: avt@ietf.org
Cc: Jan van der Meer; Dave Singer; Rolf Hakenberg; Magnus Westerlund; Per
Frojdh
Subject: [AVT] Issues in Timed Text draft


Hi all,

these are the issues on which I would like to get some feedback
during/before the meeting:

- design rationale: a text sample consists typically of a text string
followed by some modifiers (decoration).  Associated to a text sample there
may be several (or none) sample descriptions.  The draft defines headers to
convey both whole text samples and fragments thereof (note that
fragmentation should be rare).  The draft allows only text string fragments
to be displayed individually. This meaning that if you receive a single text
string fragment out of three you may use/display it.  Unlike the case where
you don't receive some fragment(s) of the decoration: in this case you
SHOULD not use it/them, because it is not required that decoration be
splitted at meaningful boundaries (this was in the -01 draft and thought too
complex for the rare cases of fragmentation). See also section 4.1 in draft.
Comments?

- ordering of text sample contents: the modifier fragments don't contain
timing attributes (because they apply to text strings which already have
them, then why repeat?). Sample descriptions (which may apply to more than
one text sample) don't have them either.  Currently the draft allows to
place these modifier fragments and sample descriptions anywhere and as often
as needed.  This is useful, for example, to specially protect some parts of
the text sample or to send in advance the modifiers of a very long piece of
text. For live streaming this might not be the best method as the timing is
tight but for streaming it is a valid option. Problems with that?
Note that IDs (SIDX) are used to match fragments without timing attributes
to their text samples. See also Section 4.1

- resilient transport: of course apart from repeating the fragments in
different packets as above you may also repeat the packets themselves,
protect them using FEC or retransmit them.  The first two shall be more
apppropriate for streaming scenarios where a pre-determined packetisation
exists previous to transmission. See sections 4.1 and 5.  The implementer
SHALL ensure that the different pieces meet the timing requirements when
they are spread over several packets.

- TYPE=3: the draft explictly prohibits combining text strings and modifiers
in a fragment. The reason is simplicity:  since text strings shall be
capable of being displayed individually it would be necessary to introduce a
field in the header that explicitly says where the first byte of modifiers
is.  This is avoided by forcing the first modifiers fragment to be indicated
by means of a dedicated header type, TYPE=3. See section 4.2. Comments?

- In-band vs. out-of-band: the draft currently specifies two possibilities
to transport sample descriptions: in-band and out-of-band.  While
out-of-band is mandatory, the same does not apply to in-band.  However how
about making the two mandatory? (i.e. header TYPE=5).  At first we thought
of in-band just for live streaming of text.  But it also makes sense for
pre-packaged content. Both mandatory?

- Payload header design (section 4.2): the draft specifies an AU-like
payload structure (similar to RFC3640 for compatibility).  Currently there
are 5 payload header types

TYPE 1 : for whole text samples
|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX|SDUR| 5-7 bytes long

TYPE 2: for text string fragments

|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX|SLEN|SDUR|TOTL|THIS| 8-10 bytes long

TYPE 3&4: for first modifier fragment (TYPE=3) and subsequent fragments.

|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|TOTL|THIS| 2-4 bytes long

TYPE 5: for sample descriptions.

|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX| 2-4 bytes long


One could say that these be reduced to three by making the TOTL/THIS counter
refer to the number of fragments of a text string and modifier boxes in a
text sample instead of the total of fragments, like this:

[NOTE: {} means optional || fixed]

TYPE 1 : for whole text samples and fragments
|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SLEN|SIDX|SDUR|TOTL|THIS| 8-10 bytes long

TYPE 2: for ALL modifier fragments

|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|TOTL|THIS| 2-4 bytes long

TYPE 3: for sample descriptions.

|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX| 2-4 bytes long

The benefit, if any, is that the number of headers is reduced . Some
disadvantages are: an increase in the average header size (assuming that
fragmentation is rare), a more complex use of TOTL/THIS and of the SLEN/LEN
fields.  Another disadvantage is that it should be more costly for RFC 3640
to identify the AUs because TOTL/THIS is in the "AU-data contents" part.

So, at the moment we don't see a clear motivation to change to this header
configuration. Comments?



Thanks for your comments,

-------------------------------
Jose Rey
Mobile Multimedia Team
Panasonic European Labs GmbH
D-63225 Langen, Germany
Tel.:+49-6103-766-134
Fax :+49-6103-766-166
Email: rey@panasonic.de
Visit: www.pel.panasonic.de
-------------------------------


_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



From exim@www1.ietf.org  Wed Feb 25 17:24:30 2004
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	Wed, 25 Feb 2004 23:20:01 +0100 (CET)
From: "Gunnar Hellstrom" <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
To: "Arnoud van Wijk" <a.vwijk@viataal.nl>, "'Jose Rey'" <rey@panasonic.de>,
        <avt@ietf.org>
Cc: "'Jan van der Meer'" <jan.vandermeer@philips.com>,
        "'Dave Singer'" <singer@apple.com>,
        "'Rolf Hakenberg'" <hakenberg@panasonic.de>,
        "'Magnus Westerlund'" <magnus.westerlund@era.ericsson.se>,
        "'Per Frojdh'" <per.frojdh@ericsson.com>
Subject: RE: [AVT] Issues in Timed Text draft
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 23:21:57 +0100
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Subtitling in stored media.
That is why it is timed. Timed to the part of video it belongs to.

Gunnar.

-------------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellstrom
Omnitor AB
Renathvagen 2
SE 121 37 Johanneshov
SWEDEN
+46 8 556 002 03
Mob: +46 708 204 288
www.omnitor.se
Gunnar.Hellstrom@Omnitor.se
--------------------------------------------


-----Original Message-----
From: avt-admin@ietf.org [mailto:avt-admin@ietf.org]On Behalf Of Arnoud
van Wijk
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 11:00 PM
To: 'Jose Rey'; avt@ietf.org
Cc: 'Jan van der Meer'; 'Dave Singer'; 'Rolf Hakenberg'; 'Magnus
Westerlund'; 'Per Frojdh'
Subject: RE: [AVT] Issues in Timed Text draft


Umm this timed text, what is it for exactly?
Text telephony?
Or?

Thanks

Drs. Arnoud A. T. van Wijk
Viataal
Research & Development
Afdeling RDS
Theerestraat 42
5271 GD Sint-Michielsgestel
The Netherlands.
Mobile: +31651921948
International text telephone: +31735588408


-----Original Message-----
From: avt-admin@ietf.org [mailto:avt-admin@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jose Rey
Sent: woensdag 25 februari 2004 15:07
To: avt@ietf.org
Cc: Jan van der Meer; Dave Singer; Rolf Hakenberg; Magnus Westerlund; Per
Frojdh
Subject: [AVT] Issues in Timed Text draft


Hi all,

these are the issues on which I would like to get some feedback
during/before the meeting:

- design rationale: a text sample consists typically of a text string
followed by some modifiers (decoration).  Associated to a text sample there
may be several (or none) sample descriptions.  The draft defines headers to
convey both whole text samples and fragments thereof (note that
fragmentation should be rare).  The draft allows only text string fragments
to be displayed individually. This meaning that if you receive a single text
string fragment out of three you may use/display it.  Unlike the case where
you don't receive some fragment(s) of the decoration: in this case you
SHOULD not use it/them, because it is not required that decoration be
splitted at meaningful boundaries (this was in the -01 draft and thought too
complex for the rare cases of fragmentation). See also section 4.1 in draft.
Comments?

- ordering of text sample contents: the modifier fragments don't contain
timing attributes (because they apply to text strings which already have
them, then why repeat?). Sample descriptions (which may apply to more than
one text sample) don't have them either.  Currently the draft allows to
place these modifier fragments and sample descriptions anywhere and as often
as needed.  This is useful, for example, to specially protect some parts of
the text sample or to send in advance the modifiers of a very long piece of
text. For live streaming this might not be the best method as the timing is
tight but for streaming it is a valid option. Problems with that?
Note that IDs (SIDX) are used to match fragments without timing attributes
to their text samples. See also Section 4.1

- resilient transport: of course apart from repeating the fragments in
different packets as above you may also repeat the packets themselves,
protect them using FEC or retransmit them.  The first two shall be more
apppropriate for streaming scenarios where a pre-determined packetisation
exists previous to transmission. See sections 4.1 and 5.  The implementer
SHALL ensure that the different pieces meet the timing requirements when
they are spread over several packets.

- TYPE=3: the draft explictly prohibits combining text strings and modifiers
in a fragment. The reason is simplicity:  since text strings shall be
capable of being displayed individually it would be necessary to introduce a
field in the header that explicitly says where the first byte of modifiers
is.  This is avoided by forcing the first modifiers fragment to be indicated
by means of a dedicated header type, TYPE=3. See section 4.2. Comments?

- In-band vs. out-of-band: the draft currently specifies two possibilities
to transport sample descriptions: in-band and out-of-band.  While
out-of-band is mandatory, the same does not apply to in-band.  However how
about making the two mandatory? (i.e. header TYPE=5).  At first we thought
of in-band just for live streaming of text.  But it also makes sense for
pre-packaged content. Both mandatory?

- Payload header design (section 4.2): the draft specifies an AU-like
payload structure (similar to RFC3640 for compatibility).  Currently there
are 5 payload header types

TYPE 1 : for whole text samples
|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX|SDUR| 5-7 bytes long

TYPE 2: for text string fragments

|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX|SLEN|SDUR|TOTL|THIS| 8-10 bytes long

TYPE 3&4: for first modifier fragment (TYPE=3) and subsequent fragments.

|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|TOTL|THIS| 2-4 bytes long

TYPE 5: for sample descriptions.

|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX| 2-4 bytes long


One could say that these be reduced to three by making the TOTL/THIS counter
refer to the number of fragments of a text string and modifier boxes in a
text sample instead of the total of fragments, like this:

[NOTE: {} means optional || fixed]

TYPE 1 : for whole text samples and fragments
|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SLEN|SIDX|SDUR|TOTL|THIS| 8-10 bytes long

TYPE 2: for ALL modifier fragments

|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|TOTL|THIS| 2-4 bytes long

TYPE 3: for sample descriptions.

|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX| 2-4 bytes long

The benefit, if any, is that the number of headers is reduced . Some
disadvantages are: an increase in the average header size (assuming that
fragmentation is rare), a more complex use of TOTL/THIS and of the SLEN/LEN
fields.  Another disadvantage is that it should be more costly for RFC 3640
to identify the AUs because TOTL/THIS is in the "AU-data contents" part.

So, at the moment we don't see a clear motivation to change to this header
configuration. Comments?



Thanks for your comments,

-------------------------------
Jose Rey
Mobile Multimedia Team
Panasonic European Labs GmbH
D-63225 Langen, Germany
Tel.:+49-6103-766-134
Fax :+49-6103-766-166
Email: rey@panasonic.de
Visit: www.pel.panasonic.de
-------------------------------


_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt




_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 08:25:16 +0100
To: Arnoud van Wijk <a.vwijk@viataal.nl>, "'Jose Rey'" <rey@panasonic.de>,
        avt@ietf.org
From: Dave Singer <singer@apple.com>
Subject: RE: [AVT] Issues in Timed Text draft
Cc: "'Jan van der Meer'" <jan.vandermeer@philips.com>,
        "'Rolf Hakenberg'" <hakenberg@panasonic.de>,
        "'Magnus Westerlund'" <magnus.westerlund@era.ericsson.se>,
        "'Per Frojdh'" <per.frojdh@ericsson.com>
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At 11:00 PM +0100 2/25/04, Arnoud van Wijk wrote:
>Umm this timed text, what is it for exactly?
>Text telephony?
>Or?

It's used for captioning, karaoke, titling etc., that is displayed 
text that is timed to go with other media (such as video).  There is 
provision for simple scrolling, highlighting, etc.

>
>Thanks
>
>Drs. Arnoud A. T. van Wijk
>Viataal
>Research & Development
>Afdeling RDS
>Theerestraat 42
>5271 GD Sint-Michielsgestel
>The Netherlands.
>Mobile: +31651921948
>International text telephone: +31735588408
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: avt-admin@ietf.org [mailto:avt-admin@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jose Rey
>Sent: woensdag 25 februari 2004 15:07
>To: avt@ietf.org
>Cc: Jan van der Meer; Dave Singer; Rolf Hakenberg; Magnus Westerlund; Per
>Frojdh
>Subject: [AVT] Issues in Timed Text draft
>
>
>Hi all,
>
>these are the issues on which I would like to get some feedback
>during/before the meeting:
>
>- design rationale: a text sample consists typically of a text string
>followed by some modifiers (decoration).  Associated to a text sample there
>may be several (or none) sample descriptions.  The draft defines headers to
>convey both whole text samples and fragments thereof (note that
>fragmentation should be rare).  The draft allows only text string fragments
>to be displayed individually. This meaning that if you receive a single text
>string fragment out of three you may use/display it.  Unlike the case where
>you don't receive some fragment(s) of the decoration: in this case you
>SHOULD not use it/them, because it is not required that decoration be
>splitted at meaningful boundaries (this was in the -01 draft and thought too
>complex for the rare cases of fragmentation). See also section 4.1 in draft.
>Comments?
>
>- ordering of text sample contents: the modifier fragments don't contain
>timing attributes (because they apply to text strings which already have
>them, then why repeat?). Sample descriptions (which may apply to more than
>one text sample) don't have them either.  Currently the draft allows to
>place these modifier fragments and sample descriptions anywhere and as often
>as needed.  This is useful, for example, to specially protect some parts of
>the text sample or to send in advance the modifiers of a very long piece of
>text. For live streaming this might not be the best method as the timing is
>tight but for streaming it is a valid option. Problems with that?
>Note that IDs (SIDX) are used to match fragments without timing attributes
>to their text samples. See also Section 4.1
>
>- resilient transport: of course apart from repeating the fragments in
>different packets as above you may also repeat the packets themselves,
>protect them using FEC or retransmit them.  The first two shall be more
>apppropriate for streaming scenarios where a pre-determined packetisation
>exists previous to transmission. See sections 4.1 and 5.  The implementer
>SHALL ensure that the different pieces meet the timing requirements when
>they are spread over several packets.
>
>- TYPE=3: the draft explictly prohibits combining text strings and modifiers
>in a fragment. The reason is simplicity:  since text strings shall be
>capable of being displayed individually it would be necessary to introduce a
>field in the header that explicitly says where the first byte of modifiers
>is.  This is avoided by forcing the first modifiers fragment to be indicated
>by means of a dedicated header type, TYPE=3. See section 4.2. Comments?
>
>- In-band vs. out-of-band: the draft currently specifies two possibilities
>to transport sample descriptions: in-band and out-of-band.  While
>out-of-band is mandatory, the same does not apply to in-band.  However how
>about making the two mandatory? (i.e. header TYPE=5).  At first we thought
>of in-band just for live streaming of text.  But it also makes sense for
>pre-packaged content. Both mandatory?
>
>- Payload header design (section 4.2): the draft specifies an AU-like
>payload structure (similar to RFC3640 for compatibility).  Currently there
>are 5 payload header types
>
>TYPE 1 : for whole text samples
>|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX|SDUR| 5-7 bytes long
>
>TYPE 2: for text string fragments
>
>|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX|SLEN|SDUR|TOTL|THIS| 8-10 bytes long
>
>TYPE 3&4: for first modifier fragment (TYPE=3) and subsequent fragments.
>
>|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|TOTL|THIS| 2-4 bytes long
>
>TYPE 5: for sample descriptions.
>
>|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX| 2-4 bytes long
>
>
>One could say that these be reduced to three by making the TOTL/THIS counter
>refer to the number of fragments of a text string and modifier boxes in a
>text sample instead of the total of fragments, like this:
>
>[NOTE: {} means optional || fixed]
>
>TYPE 1 : for whole text samples and fragments
>|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SLEN|SIDX|SDUR|TOTL|THIS| 8-10 bytes long
>
>TYPE 2: for ALL modifier fragments
>
>|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|TOTL|THIS| 2-4 bytes long
>
>TYPE 3: for sample descriptions.
>
>|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX| 2-4 bytes long
>
>The benefit, if any, is that the number of headers is reduced . Some
>disadvantages are: an increase in the average header size (assuming that
>fragmentation is rare), a more complex use of TOTL/THIS and of the SLEN/LEN
>fields.  Another disadvantage is that it should be more costly for RFC 3640
>to identify the AUs because TOTL/THIS is in the "AU-data contents" part.
>
>So, at the moment we don't see a clear motivation to change to this header
>configuration. Comments?
>
>
>
>Thanks for your comments,
>
>-------------------------------
>Jose Rey
>Mobile Multimedia Team
>Panasonic European Labs GmbH
>D-63225 Langen, Germany
>Tel.:+49-6103-766-134
>Fax :+49-6103-766-166
>Email: rey@panasonic.de
>Visit: www.pel.panasonic.de
>-------------------------------
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Audio/Video Transport Working Group
>avt@ietf.org
>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt


-- 
David Singer
Apple Computer/QuickTime

_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



From exim@www1.ietf.org  Thu Feb 26 04:28:36 2004
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	 Thu, 26 Feb 2004 10:24:19 +0100
From: "Jose Rey" <rey@panasonic.de>
To: <avt@ietf.org>
Cc: "Arnoud van Wijk" <a.vwijk@viataal.nl>
Subject: RE: [AVT] Issues in Timed Text draft
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 10:24:40 +0100
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Arnoud,

check

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rey-avt-3gpp-timed-text-02.txt

and its references for further details.  Also, there is a nice introduction
section on the usage.


Jose

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Singer [mailto:singer@apple.com]
> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 8:25 AM
> To: Arnoud van Wijk; 'Jose Rey'; avt@ietf.org
> Cc: 'Jan van der Meer'; 'Rolf Hakenberg'; 'Magnus Westerlund'; 'Per
> Frojdh'
> Subject: RE: [AVT] Issues in Timed Text draft
>
>
> At 11:00 PM +0100 2/25/04, Arnoud van Wijk wrote:
> >Umm this timed text, what is it for exactly?
> >Text telephony?
> >Or?
>
> It's used for captioning, karaoke, titling etc., that is displayed
> text that is timed to go with other media (such as video).  There is
> provision for simple scrolling, highlighting, etc.
>
> >
> >Thanks
> >
> >Drs. Arnoud A. T. van Wijk
> >Viataal
> >Research & Development
> >Afdeling RDS
> >Theerestraat 42
> >5271 GD Sint-Michielsgestel
> >The Netherlands.
> >Mobile: +31651921948
> >International text telephone: +31735588408
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: avt-admin@ietf.org [mailto:avt-admin@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Jose Rey
> >Sent: woensdag 25 februari 2004 15:07
> >To: avt@ietf.org
> >Cc: Jan van der Meer; Dave Singer; Rolf Hakenberg; Magnus Westerlund; Per
> >Frojdh
> >Subject: [AVT] Issues in Timed Text draft
> >
> >
> >Hi all,
> >
> >these are the issues on which I would like to get some feedback
> >during/before the meeting:
> >
> >- design rationale: a text sample consists typically of a text string
> >followed by some modifiers (decoration).  Associated to a text
> sample there
> >may be several (or none) sample descriptions.  The draft defines
> headers to
> >convey both whole text samples and fragments thereof (note that
> >fragmentation should be rare).  The draft allows only text
> string fragments
> >to be displayed individually. This meaning that if you receive a
> single text
> >string fragment out of three you may use/display it.  Unlike the
> case where
> >you don't receive some fragment(s) of the decoration: in this case you
> >SHOULD not use it/them, because it is not required that decoration be
> >splitted at meaningful boundaries (this was in the -01 draft and
> thought too
> >complex for the rare cases of fragmentation). See also section
> 4.1 in draft.
> >Comments?
> >
> >- ordering of text sample contents: the modifier fragments don't contain
> >timing attributes (because they apply to text strings which already have
> >them, then why repeat?). Sample descriptions (which may apply to
> more than
> >one text sample) don't have them either.  Currently the draft allows to
> >place these modifier fragments and sample descriptions anywhere
> and as often
> >as needed.  This is useful, for example, to specially protect
> some parts of
> >the text sample or to send in advance the modifiers of a very
> long piece of
> >text. For live streaming this might not be the best method as
> the timing is
> >tight but for streaming it is a valid option. Problems with that?
> >Note that IDs (SIDX) are used to match fragments without timing
> attributes
> >to their text samples. See also Section 4.1
> >
> >- resilient transport: of course apart from repeating the fragments in
> >different packets as above you may also repeat the packets themselves,
> >protect them using FEC or retransmit them.  The first two shall be more
> >apppropriate for streaming scenarios where a pre-determined packetisation
> >exists previous to transmission. See sections 4.1 and 5.  The implementer
> >SHALL ensure that the different pieces meet the timing requirements when
> >they are spread over several packets.
> >
> >- TYPE=3: the draft explictly prohibits combining text strings
> and modifiers
> >in a fragment. The reason is simplicity:  since text strings shall be
> >capable of being displayed individually it would be necessary to
> introduce a
> >field in the header that explicitly says where the first byte of
> modifiers
> >is.  This is avoided by forcing the first modifiers fragment to
> be indicated
> >by means of a dedicated header type, TYPE=3. See section 4.2. Comments?
> >
> >- In-band vs. out-of-band: the draft currently specifies two
> possibilities
> >to transport sample descriptions: in-band and out-of-band.  While
> >out-of-band is mandatory, the same does not apply to in-band.
> However how
> >about making the two mandatory? (i.e. header TYPE=5).  At first
> we thought
> >of in-band just for live streaming of text.  But it also makes sense for
> >pre-packaged content. Both mandatory?
> >
> >- Payload header design (section 4.2): the draft specifies an AU-like
> >payload structure (similar to RFC3640 for compatibility).
> Currently there
> >are 5 payload header types
> >
> >TYPE 1 : for whole text samples
> >|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX|SDUR| 5-7 bytes long
> >
> >TYPE 2: for text string fragments
> >
> >|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX|SLEN|SDUR|TOTL|THIS| 8-10 bytes long
> >
> >TYPE 3&4: for first modifier fragment (TYPE=3) and subsequent fragments.
> >
> >|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|TOTL|THIS| 2-4 bytes long
> >
> >TYPE 5: for sample descriptions.
> >
> >|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX| 2-4 bytes long
> >
> >
> >One could say that these be reduced to three by making the
> TOTL/THIS counter
> >refer to the number of fragments of a text string and modifier boxes in a
> >text sample instead of the total of fragments, like this:
> >
> >[NOTE: {} means optional || fixed]
> >
> >TYPE 1 : for whole text samples and fragments
> >|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SLEN|SIDX|SDUR|TOTL|THIS| 8-10 bytes long
> >
> >TYPE 2: for ALL modifier fragments
> >
> >|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|TOTL|THIS| 2-4 bytes long
> >
> >TYPE 3: for sample descriptions.
> >
> >|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX| 2-4 bytes long
> >
> >The benefit, if any, is that the number of headers is reduced . Some
> >disadvantages are: an increase in the average header size (assuming that
> >fragmentation is rare), a more complex use of TOTL/THIS and of
> the SLEN/LEN
> >fields.  Another disadvantage is that it should be more costly
> for RFC 3640
> >to identify the AUs because TOTL/THIS is in the "AU-data contents" part.
> >
> >So, at the moment we don't see a clear motivation to change to
> this header
> >configuration. Comments?
> >
> >
> >
> >Thanks for your comments,
> >
> >-------------------------------
> >Jose Rey
> >Mobile Multimedia Team
> >Panasonic European Labs GmbH
> >D-63225 Langen, Germany
> >Tel.:+49-6103-766-134
> >Fax :+49-6103-766-166
> >Email: rey@panasonic.de
> >Visit: www.pel.panasonic.de
> >-------------------------------
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Audio/Video Transport Working Group
> >avt@ietf.org
> >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt
>
>
> --
> David Singer
> Apple Computer/QuickTime
>


_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



From exim@www1.ietf.org  Thu Feb 26 06:15:35 2004
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Message-Id: <200402261122.i1QBMfrb010142@smtp.eweka.nl>
From: "Arnoud van Wijk" <a.vwijk@viataal.nl>
To: "'Dave Singer'" <singer@apple.com>, "'Jose Rey'" <rey@panasonic.de>,
        <avt@ietf.org>
Cc: "'Jan van der Meer'" <jan.vandermeer@philips.com>,
        "'Rolf Hakenberg'" <hakenberg@panasonic.de>,
        "'Magnus Westerlund'" <magnus.westerlund@era.ericsson.se>,
        "'Per Frojdh'" <per.frojdh@ericsson.com>
Subject: RE: [AVT] Issues in Timed Text draft
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 12:12:29 +0100
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Aaaah I now understand. :-)
Well I am very much interested in subtitling. Since I depend on that as a
deaf person.

Greetz

Arnoud

Drs. Arnoud A. T. van Wijk
Viataal
Research & Development
Afdeling RDS
Theerestraat 42
5271 GD Sint-Michielsgestel
The Netherlands. 
Mobile: +31651921948
International text telephone: +31735588408


-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Singer [mailto:singer@apple.com] 
Sent: donderdag 26 februari 2004 8:25
To: Arnoud van Wijk; 'Jose Rey'; avt@ietf.org
Cc: 'Jan van der Meer'; 'Rolf Hakenberg'; 'Magnus Westerlund'; 'Per Frojdh'
Subject: RE: [AVT] Issues in Timed Text draft

At 11:00 PM +0100 2/25/04, Arnoud van Wijk wrote:
>Umm this timed text, what is it for exactly?
>Text telephony?
>Or?

It's used for captioning, karaoke, titling etc., that is displayed 
text that is timed to go with other media (such as video).  There is 
provision for simple scrolling, highlighting, etc.

>
>Thanks
>
>Drs. Arnoud A. T. van Wijk
>Viataal
>Research & Development
>Afdeling RDS
>Theerestraat 42
>5271 GD Sint-Michielsgestel
>The Netherlands.
>Mobile: +31651921948
>International text telephone: +31735588408
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: avt-admin@ietf.org [mailto:avt-admin@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jose Rey
>Sent: woensdag 25 februari 2004 15:07
>To: avt@ietf.org
>Cc: Jan van der Meer; Dave Singer; Rolf Hakenberg; Magnus Westerlund; Per
>Frojdh
>Subject: [AVT] Issues in Timed Text draft
>
>
>Hi all,
>
>these are the issues on which I would like to get some feedback
>during/before the meeting:
>
>- design rationale: a text sample consists typically of a text string
>followed by some modifiers (decoration).  Associated to a text sample there
>may be several (or none) sample descriptions.  The draft defines headers to
>convey both whole text samples and fragments thereof (note that
>fragmentation should be rare).  The draft allows only text string fragments
>to be displayed individually. This meaning that if you receive a single
text
>string fragment out of three you may use/display it.  Unlike the case where
>you don't receive some fragment(s) of the decoration: in this case you
>SHOULD not use it/them, because it is not required that decoration be
>splitted at meaningful boundaries (this was in the -01 draft and thought
too
>complex for the rare cases of fragmentation). See also section 4.1 in
draft.
>Comments?
>
>- ordering of text sample contents: the modifier fragments don't contain
>timing attributes (because they apply to text strings which already have
>them, then why repeat?). Sample descriptions (which may apply to more than
>one text sample) don't have them either.  Currently the draft allows to
>place these modifier fragments and sample descriptions anywhere and as
often
>as needed.  This is useful, for example, to specially protect some parts of
>the text sample or to send in advance the modifiers of a very long piece of
>text. For live streaming this might not be the best method as the timing is
>tight but for streaming it is a valid option. Problems with that?
>Note that IDs (SIDX) are used to match fragments without timing attributes
>to their text samples. See also Section 4.1
>
>- resilient transport: of course apart from repeating the fragments in
>different packets as above you may also repeat the packets themselves,
>protect them using FEC or retransmit them.  The first two shall be more
>apppropriate for streaming scenarios where a pre-determined packetisation
>exists previous to transmission. See sections 4.1 and 5.  The implementer
>SHALL ensure that the different pieces meet the timing requirements when
>they are spread over several packets.
>
>- TYPE=3: the draft explictly prohibits combining text strings and
modifiers
>in a fragment. The reason is simplicity:  since text strings shall be
>capable of being displayed individually it would be necessary to introduce
a
>field in the header that explicitly says where the first byte of modifiers
>is.  This is avoided by forcing the first modifiers fragment to be
indicated
>by means of a dedicated header type, TYPE=3. See section 4.2. Comments?
>
>- In-band vs. out-of-band: the draft currently specifies two possibilities
>to transport sample descriptions: in-band and out-of-band.  While
>out-of-band is mandatory, the same does not apply to in-band.  However how
>about making the two mandatory? (i.e. header TYPE=5).  At first we thought
>of in-band just for live streaming of text.  But it also makes sense for
>pre-packaged content. Both mandatory?
>
>- Payload header design (section 4.2): the draft specifies an AU-like
>payload structure (similar to RFC3640 for compatibility).  Currently there
>are 5 payload header types
>
>TYPE 1 : for whole text samples
>|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX|SDUR| 5-7 bytes long
>
>TYPE 2: for text string fragments
>
>|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX|SLEN|SDUR|TOTL|THIS| 8-10 bytes long
>
>TYPE 3&4: for first modifier fragment (TYPE=3) and subsequent fragments.
>
>|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|TOTL|THIS| 2-4 bytes long
>
>TYPE 5: for sample descriptions.
>
>|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX| 2-4 bytes long
>
>
>One could say that these be reduced to three by making the TOTL/THIS
counter
>refer to the number of fragments of a text string and modifier boxes in a
>text sample instead of the total of fragments, like this:
>
>[NOTE: {} means optional || fixed]
>
>TYPE 1 : for whole text samples and fragments
>|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SLEN|SIDX|SDUR|TOTL|THIS| 8-10 bytes long
>
>TYPE 2: for ALL modifier fragments
>
>|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|TOTL|THIS| 2-4 bytes long
>
>TYPE 3: for sample descriptions.
>
>|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX| 2-4 bytes long
>
>The benefit, if any, is that the number of headers is reduced . Some
>disadvantages are: an increase in the average header size (assuming that
>fragmentation is rare), a more complex use of TOTL/THIS and of the SLEN/LEN
>fields.  Another disadvantage is that it should be more costly for RFC 3640
>to identify the AUs because TOTL/THIS is in the "AU-data contents" part.
>
>So, at the moment we don't see a clear motivation to change to this header
>configuration. Comments?
>
>
>
>Thanks for your comments,
>
>-------------------------------
>Jose Rey
>Mobile Multimedia Team
>Panasonic European Labs GmbH
>D-63225 Langen, Germany
>Tel.:+49-6103-766-134
>Fax :+49-6103-766-166
>Email: rey@panasonic.de
>Visit: www.pel.panasonic.de
>-------------------------------
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Audio/Video Transport Working Group
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-- 
David Singer
Apple Computer/QuickTime



_______________________________________________
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From: "Allison, Art" <AAllison@nab.org>
To: "'Gunnar Hellstrom'" <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>,
        Arnoud van Wijk
	 <a.vwijk@viataal.nl>,
        "'Jose Rey'" <rey@panasonic.de>, avt@ietf.org
Cc: "'Jan van der Meer'" <jan.vandermeer@philips.com>,
        "'Dave Singer'"
	 <singer@apple.com>,
        "'Rolf Hakenberg'" <hakenberg@panasonic.de>,
        "'Magnus Westerlund'" <magnus.westerlund@era.ericsson.se>,
        "'Per Frojdh'"
	 <per.frojdh@ericsson.com>
Subject: RE: [AVT] Issues in Timed Text draft
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 10:13:54 -0500
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The short from response below says 'part of video it belongs to'. 
It seems to me that text can be for audio-only services as well. Would you
agree?

In considering your response, it might be helpful to recognize the
differences from the 'classical' approaches that were driven by the old
technology and the tools/approaches available with digital.  We don't need
to embed text in video any longer as tools to directly link to the program
time line exist. 

Generally, it seems to me that descriptive text either provides:
1. replacement audio for the hearing impaired, (alternative language text is
logically the same, as the listener does not understand due to inability to
understand the language in the audio).
or
2. Additional information related to the program.

So is it clear to those more deeply involved that the timing is related to
program presentation time (not video or audio per se)?

Art
::{)>
Art Allison
Director Advanced Engineering
NAB
1771 N St NW
Washington DC 20036
202 429 5418


-----Original Message-----
From: Gunnar Hellstrom [mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se]
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 5:22 PM
To: Arnoud van Wijk; 'Jose Rey'; avt@ietf.org
Cc: 'Jan van der Meer'; 'Dave Singer'; 'Rolf Hakenberg'; 'Magnus
Westerlund'; 'Per Frojdh'
Subject: RE: [AVT] Issues in Timed Text draft


Subtitling in stored media.
That is why it is timed. Timed to the part of video it belongs to.

Gunnar.

-------------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellstrom
Omnitor AB
Renathvagen 2
SE 121 37 Johanneshov
SWEDEN
+46 8 556 002 03
Mob: +46 708 204 288
www.omnitor.se
Gunnar.Hellstrom@Omnitor.se
--------------------------------------------


-----Original Message-----
From: avt-admin@ietf.org [mailto:avt-admin@ietf.org]On Behalf Of Arnoud
van Wijk
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 11:00 PM
To: 'Jose Rey'; avt@ietf.org
Cc: 'Jan van der Meer'; 'Dave Singer'; 'Rolf Hakenberg'; 'Magnus
Westerlund'; 'Per Frojdh'
Subject: RE: [AVT] Issues in Timed Text draft


Umm this timed text, what is it for exactly?
Text telephony?
Or?

Thanks

Drs. Arnoud A. T. van Wijk
Viataal
Research & Development
Afdeling RDS
Theerestraat 42
5271 GD Sint-Michielsgestel
The Netherlands.
Mobile: +31651921948
International text telephone: +31735588408


-----Original Message-----
From: avt-admin@ietf.org [mailto:avt-admin@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jose Rey
Sent: woensdag 25 februari 2004 15:07
To: avt@ietf.org
Cc: Jan van der Meer; Dave Singer; Rolf Hakenberg; Magnus Westerlund; Per
Frojdh
Subject: [AVT] Issues in Timed Text draft


Hi all,

these are the issues on which I would like to get some feedback
during/before the meeting:

- design rationale: a text sample consists typically of a text string
followed by some modifiers (decoration).  Associated to a text sample there
may be several (or none) sample descriptions.  The draft defines headers to
convey both whole text samples and fragments thereof (note that
fragmentation should be rare).  The draft allows only text string fragments
to be displayed individually. This meaning that if you receive a single text
string fragment out of three you may use/display it.  Unlike the case where
you don't receive some fragment(s) of the decoration: in this case you
SHOULD not use it/them, because it is not required that decoration be
splitted at meaningful boundaries (this was in the -01 draft and thought too
complex for the rare cases of fragmentation). See also section 4.1 in draft.
Comments?

- ordering of text sample contents: the modifier fragments don't contain
timing attributes (because they apply to text strings which already have
them, then why repeat?). Sample descriptions (which may apply to more than
one text sample) don't have them either.  Currently the draft allows to
place these modifier fragments and sample descriptions anywhere and as often
as needed.  This is useful, for example, to specially protect some parts of
the text sample or to send in advance the modifiers of a very long piece of
text. For live streaming this might not be the best method as the timing is
tight but for streaming it is a valid option. Problems with that?
Note that IDs (SIDX) are used to match fragments without timing attributes
to their text samples. See also Section 4.1

- resilient transport: of course apart from repeating the fragments in
different packets as above you may also repeat the packets themselves,
protect them using FEC or retransmit them.  The first two shall be more
apppropriate for streaming scenarios where a pre-determined packetisation
exists previous to transmission. See sections 4.1 and 5.  The implementer
SHALL ensure that the different pieces meet the timing requirements when
they are spread over several packets.

- TYPE=3: the draft explictly prohibits combining text strings and modifiers
in a fragment. The reason is simplicity:  since text strings shall be
capable of being displayed individually it would be necessary to introduce a
field in the header that explicitly says where the first byte of modifiers
is.  This is avoided by forcing the first modifiers fragment to be indicated
by means of a dedicated header type, TYPE=3. See section 4.2. Comments?

- In-band vs. out-of-band: the draft currently specifies two possibilities
to transport sample descriptions: in-band and out-of-band.  While
out-of-band is mandatory, the same does not apply to in-band.  However how
about making the two mandatory? (i.e. header TYPE=5).  At first we thought
of in-band just for live streaming of text.  But it also makes sense for
pre-packaged content. Both mandatory?

- Payload header design (section 4.2): the draft specifies an AU-like
payload structure (similar to RFC3640 for compatibility).  Currently there
are 5 payload header types

TYPE 1 : for whole text samples
|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX|SDUR| 5-7 bytes long

TYPE 2: for text string fragments

|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX|SLEN|SDUR|TOTL|THIS| 8-10 bytes long

TYPE 3&4: for first modifier fragment (TYPE=3) and subsequent fragments.

|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|TOTL|THIS| 2-4 bytes long

TYPE 5: for sample descriptions.

|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX| 2-4 bytes long


One could say that these be reduced to three by making the TOTL/THIS counter
refer to the number of fragments of a text string and modifier boxes in a
text sample instead of the total of fragments, like this:

[NOTE: {} means optional || fixed]

TYPE 1 : for whole text samples and fragments
|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SLEN|SIDX|SDUR|TOTL|THIS| 8-10 bytes long

TYPE 2: for ALL modifier fragments

|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|TOTL|THIS| 2-4 bytes long

TYPE 3: for sample descriptions.

|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX| 2-4 bytes long

The benefit, if any, is that the number of headers is reduced . Some
disadvantages are: an increase in the average header size (assuming that
fragmentation is rare), a more complex use of TOTL/THIS and of the SLEN/LEN
fields.  Another disadvantage is that it should be more costly for RFC 3640
to identify the AUs because TOTL/THIS is in the "AU-data contents" part.

So, at the moment we don't see a clear motivation to change to this header
configuration. Comments?



Thanks for your comments,

-------------------------------
Jose Rey
Mobile Multimedia Team
Panasonic European Labs GmbH
D-63225 Langen, Germany
Tel.:+49-6103-766-134
Fax :+49-6103-766-166
Email: rey@panasonic.de
Visit: www.pel.panasonic.de
-------------------------------


_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt




_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt

_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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Hi,

Attached is an updated AVT agenda. Mostly smaller corrections to draft 
names, and numbers. If someone still has comments, please send them to 
use chairs.

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
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Audio/Video Transport Working Group

CHAIRS: Colin Perkins     <csp@csperkins.org>
	Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>


Tuseday, 2nd March 2004 at 09:00-11:30
=====================================

Introduction, and Status Update				(Chairs)	20
  In publishing process:
	draft-ietf-avt-mpeg4-simple-08.txt		[RFF 3640]
	draft-ietf-avt-rtcp-report-extns-06.txt		[RFC 3611]
	draft-ietf-srtp-09.txt 				[AUTH 48]
	draft-ietf-avt-rtcp-feedback-08.txt		[IESG Evaluation]
	draft-burmeister-avt-rtcp-feedback-sim-05.txt	[IESG Evaluation]
	draft-ietf-avt-rtp-clearmode-04.txt		[IESG Evaluation]
	draft-ietf-avt-ilbc-codec-04 (Experimental)	[IESG Evaluation]
	draft-ietf-avt-rtp-ilbc-04 (Experimental)	[IESG Evaluation]
	draft-jones-avt-audio-t38-03.txt		[IESG Evaluation]
	draft-ietf-avt-tcrtp-07.txt			[IETF LC]
	draft-ietf-avt-rtp-retransmission-10.txt	[AD Evaluation]
	draft-ietf-avt-uncomp-video-06			[AD Evaluation]
	 
  WG Documents:
	draft-ietf-avt-ulp-09.txt
	draft-ietf-avt-uxp-06.txt
	draft-ietf-avt-rfc2833bis-04.txt	
	draft-ietf-avt-mpeg1and2-mod-00.txt
	draft-ietf-avt-rtp-dsr-codecs-00.txt
	draft-ietf-avt-profile-savpf-00.txt
	draft-ietf-avt-rfc3119bis-02.txt
	draft-ietf-avt-rtp-h264-04.txt
	draft-ietf-avt-rtp-jpeg2000-04.txt

	
  Individual contributions:		
	draft-kerr-avt-vorbis-rtp-03.txt
	draft-herlein-speex-rtp-profile-01 (expired) 
	draft-ramalho-rgl-rtpformat-02.txt (expired)
	draft-chen-rtp-bv-02.txt	
	draft-ahmadi-avt-rtp-vmr-wb-00.txt
	draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-protocol-00.txt
	draft-clark-avt-rtpmibv2-00.txt
	draft-finlayson-avt-mpa-robust-interoperability-00.txt
	draft-perkins-avt-rtp-reactive-fec-00.txt
	draft-tseng-avt-rtcp-streaming-extens-00.txt

   Advance RTP and AVP to Full Standard


Updates on behalf of author				(Chairs)	 5

	draft-ietf-avt-midi-rtp-01.txt
	draft-ietf-avt-midi-guidelines-01.txt
	draft-ietf-avt-rtp-framing-contrans-00.txt
	Requirements for transport of video control commands
	(draft-basso-avt-videoconreq-00.txt)


RTP payload format for AMR-WB+ audio codec		(Lakaniemi)	15
	draft-sjoberg-avt-rtp-amrwbplus-01.txt

Introduction of ATRAC family payload format.		(Romaine)	15
	draft-hatanaka-avt-rtp-atrac-family-00.txt

3GPP Timed Text						(Rey)		15
	draft-rey-avt-3gpp-timed-text-02.txt

Payload format for text conversation (RFC2793bis)       (Hellstrom)     15
	draft-ietf-avt-rfc2793bis-02.txt (main document)
        draft-ietf-avt-text-red-01.txt
	draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-new-15.txt
        draft-sinnreich-sipdev-req-03.txt

H.261 and H.263 payload parameters			(Even)		15
        draft-ietf-avt-rfc2032-bis-00.txt 
        draft-ietf-avt-rfc2429-bis-00.txt 




Wednesday, 3rd March 2004 at 15:30-17:30
=====================================


Chairs Introduction							 5

RTCP Extensions for SSM Sessions with Unicast Feedback  (Ott)		15
	draft-ietf-avt-rtcpssm-06.txt
	
Requirements for ECRTP over MPLS			(Ash)		15
	draft-ash-avt-ecrtp-over-mpls-reqs-01.txt

Verifying the media path using RTP No-Op & Preconditions (Andreasen)    20
	draft-wing-avt-rtp-noop-00.txt
	draft-andreasen-mmusic-connectivityprecondition-00.txt
	
RTP Profile for TCP Friendly Rate Control		(Gharai)        30
        draft-gharai-avt-tfrc-profile-00.txt	




		
		

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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 23:27:05 +0100
To: "Allison, Art" <AAllison@nab.org>,
        "'Gunnar Hellstrom'" <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>,
        Arnoud van Wijk <a.vwijk@viataal.nl>, "'Jose Rey'" <rey@panasonic.de>,
        avt@ietf.org
From: Dave Singer <singer@apple.com>
Subject: RE: [AVT] Issues in Timed Text draft
Cc: "'Jan van der Meer'" <jan.vandermeer@philips.com>,
        "'Rolf Hakenberg'" <hakenberg@panasonic.de>,
        "'Magnus Westerlund'" <magnus.westerlund@era.ericsson.se>,
        "'Per Frojdh'" <per.frojdh@ericsson.com>
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yes, that's true, it's technically possible to have timed text with 
audio and no video, as you say.


At 10:13 AM -0500 2/26/04, Allison, Art wrote:
>The short from response below says 'part of video it belongs to'.
>It seems to me that text can be for audio-only services as well. Would you
>agree?
>
>In considering your response, it might be helpful to recognize the
>differences from the 'classical' approaches that were driven by the old
>technology and the tools/approaches available with digital.  We don't need
>to embed text in video any longer as tools to directly link to the program
>time line exist.
>
>Generally, it seems to me that descriptive text either provides:
>1. replacement audio for the hearing impaired, (alternative language text is
>logically the same, as the listener does not understand due to inability to
>understand the language in the audio).
>or
>2. Additional information related to the program.
>
>So is it clear to those more deeply involved that the timing is related to
>program presentation time (not video or audio per se)?
>
>Art
>::{)>
>Art Allison
>Director Advanced Engineering
>NAB
>1771 N St NW
>Washington DC 20036
>202 429 5418
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Gunnar Hellstrom [mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se]
>Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 5:22 PM
>To: Arnoud van Wijk; 'Jose Rey'; avt@ietf.org
>Cc: 'Jan van der Meer'; 'Dave Singer'; 'Rolf Hakenberg'; 'Magnus
>Westerlund'; 'Per Frojdh'
>Subject: RE: [AVT] Issues in Timed Text draft
>
>
>Subtitling in stored media.
>That is why it is timed. Timed to the part of video it belongs to.
>
>Gunnar.
>
>-------------------------------------------
>Gunnar Hellstrom
>Omnitor AB
>Renathvagen 2
>SE 121 37 Johanneshov
>SWEDEN
>+46 8 556 002 03
>Mob: +46 708 204 288
>www.omnitor.se
>Gunnar.Hellstrom@Omnitor.se
>--------------------------------------------
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: avt-admin@ietf.org [mailto:avt-admin@ietf.org]On Behalf Of Arnoud
>van Wijk
>Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 11:00 PM
>To: 'Jose Rey'; avt@ietf.org
>Cc: 'Jan van der Meer'; 'Dave Singer'; 'Rolf Hakenberg'; 'Magnus
>Westerlund'; 'Per Frojdh'
>Subject: RE: [AVT] Issues in Timed Text draft
>
>
>Umm this timed text, what is it for exactly?
>Text telephony?
>Or?
>
>Thanks
>
>Drs. Arnoud A. T. van Wijk
>Viataal
>Research & Development
>Afdeling RDS
>Theerestraat 42
>5271 GD Sint-Michielsgestel
>The Netherlands.
>Mobile: +31651921948
>International text telephone: +31735588408
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: avt-admin@ietf.org [mailto:avt-admin@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jose Rey
>Sent: woensdag 25 februari 2004 15:07
>To: avt@ietf.org
>Cc: Jan van der Meer; Dave Singer; Rolf Hakenberg; Magnus Westerlund; Per
>Frojdh
>Subject: [AVT] Issues in Timed Text draft
>
>
>Hi all,
>
>these are the issues on which I would like to get some feedback
>during/before the meeting:
>
>- design rationale: a text sample consists typically of a text string
>followed by some modifiers (decoration).  Associated to a text sample there
>may be several (or none) sample descriptions.  The draft defines headers to
>convey both whole text samples and fragments thereof (note that
>fragmentation should be rare).  The draft allows only text string fragments
>to be displayed individually. This meaning that if you receive a single text
>string fragment out of three you may use/display it.  Unlike the case where
>you don't receive some fragment(s) of the decoration: in this case you
>SHOULD not use it/them, because it is not required that decoration be
>splitted at meaningful boundaries (this was in the -01 draft and thought too
>complex for the rare cases of fragmentation). See also section 4.1 in draft.
>Comments?
>
>- ordering of text sample contents: the modifier fragments don't contain
>timing attributes (because they apply to text strings which already have
>them, then why repeat?). Sample descriptions (which may apply to more than
>one text sample) don't have them either.  Currently the draft allows to
>place these modifier fragments and sample descriptions anywhere and as often
>as needed.  This is useful, for example, to specially protect some parts of
>the text sample or to send in advance the modifiers of a very long piece of
>text. For live streaming this might not be the best method as the timing is
>tight but for streaming it is a valid option. Problems with that?
>Note that IDs (SIDX) are used to match fragments without timing attributes
>to their text samples. See also Section 4.1
>
>- resilient transport: of course apart from repeating the fragments in
>different packets as above you may also repeat the packets themselves,
>protect them using FEC or retransmit them.  The first two shall be more
>apppropriate for streaming scenarios where a pre-determined packetisation
>exists previous to transmission. See sections 4.1 and 5.  The implementer
>SHALL ensure that the different pieces meet the timing requirements when
>they are spread over several packets.
>
>- TYPE=3: the draft explictly prohibits combining text strings and modifiers
>in a fragment. The reason is simplicity:  since text strings shall be
>capable of being displayed individually it would be necessary to introduce a
>field in the header that explicitly says where the first byte of modifiers
>is.  This is avoided by forcing the first modifiers fragment to be indicated
>by means of a dedicated header type, TYPE=3. See section 4.2. Comments?
>
>- In-band vs. out-of-band: the draft currently specifies two possibilities
>to transport sample descriptions: in-band and out-of-band.  While
>out-of-band is mandatory, the same does not apply to in-band.  However how
>about making the two mandatory? (i.e. header TYPE=5).  At first we thought
>of in-band just for live streaming of text.  But it also makes sense for
>pre-packaged content. Both mandatory?
>
>- Payload header design (section 4.2): the draft specifies an AU-like
>payload structure (similar to RFC3640 for compatibility).  Currently there
>are 5 payload header types
>
>TYPE 1 : for whole text samples
>|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX|SDUR| 5-7 bytes long
>
>TYPE 2: for text string fragments
>
>|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX|SLEN|SDUR|TOTL|THIS| 8-10 bytes long
>
>TYPE 3&4: for first modifier fragment (TYPE=3) and subsequent fragments.
>
>|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|TOTL|THIS| 2-4 bytes long
>
>TYPE 5: for sample descriptions.
>
>|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX| 2-4 bytes long
>
>
>One could say that these be reduced to three by making the TOTL/THIS counter
>refer to the number of fragments of a text string and modifier boxes in a
>text sample instead of the total of fragments, like this:
>
>[NOTE: {} means optional || fixed]
>
>TYPE 1 : for whole text samples and fragments
>|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SLEN|SIDX|SDUR|TOTL|THIS| 8-10 bytes long
>
>TYPE 2: for ALL modifier fragments
>
>|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|TOTL|THIS| 2-4 bytes long
>
>TYPE 3: for sample descriptions.
>
>|R|U|L|TYPE|{LEN}|SIDX| 2-4 bytes long
>
>The benefit, if any, is that the number of headers is reduced . Some
>disadvantages are: an increase in the average header size (assuming that
>fragmentation is rare), a more complex use of TOTL/THIS and of the SLEN/LEN
>fields.  Another disadvantage is that it should be more costly for RFC 3640
>to identify the AUs because TOTL/THIS is in the "AU-data contents" part.
>
>So, at the moment we don't see a clear motivation to change to this header
>configuration. Comments?
>
>
>
>Thanks for your comments,
>
>-------------------------------
>Jose Rey
>Mobile Multimedia Team
>Panasonic European Labs GmbH
>D-63225 Langen, Germany
>Tel.:+49-6103-766-134
>Fax :+49-6103-766-166
>Email: rey@panasonic.de
>Visit: www.pel.panasonic.de
>-------------------------------
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Audio/Video Transport Working Group
>avt@ietf.org
>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Audio/Video Transport Working Group
>avt@ietf.org
>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Audio/Video Transport Working Group
>avt@ietf.org
>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt
>
>_______________________________________________
>Audio/Video Transport Working Group
>avt@ietf.org
>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt


-- 
David Singer
Apple Computer/QuickTime

_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



From exim@www1.ietf.org  Thu Feb 26 20:07:21 2004
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Reply-to: Randell Jesup <rjesup@wgate.com>
To: IETF AVT WG <avt@ietf.org>
From: Randell Jesup <rjesup@wgate.com>
Date: 26 Feb 2004 20:02:26 -0500
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Subject: [AVT] draft-ietf-avt-rtp-h264-04 and timestamps
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Question about draft-ietf-avt-rtp-h264-04 and timestamp values:

The said draft states that avt-rtp-h264 uses a 90KHz timestamp clock.  The
RTP main spec (3550) says:

      If RTP packets are generated periodically, the nominal sampling
      instant as determined from the sampling clock is to be used, not a
      reading of the system clock.  As an example, for fixed-rate audio the
      timestamp clock would likely increment by one for each sampling
      period.

So, under what circumstances would one use a sampled (derived) timestamp,
and under what circumstances would one use an assumed timestamp?  For
example, for nominally 30FPS video, would one use a timestamp difference of
3000 every time?  What if the actual rate turned out to be not 30FPS, but
29.97fps, or 33fps, etc?  The receiver could compensate for clock/framerate
drift using RTCP SR/RR's or (very) roughly using jitter buffer queue depth,
but only after they had them.  What about inherently variable-frame-rate
encoders?  (Though normally will be using input devices that are
effectively or close to fixed-rate inputs, with the encoder skipping input
frames.)

Obviously the h.264 codec doesn't care itself.

It seems from the spec a receiver must be willing to handle either fixed
(or quantized) offset timestamps, as well as wall-clock-derived timestamps;
so the question is more one of which is preferred/recommended at the sender
side in which instance?  Is there _any_ instance where one would prefer
wall-clock-derived timestamps?  (Perhaps something that truly captured
frames on demand and the encoder ran (and captured/encoded frames) as fast
as it could.)

What about AV sync before RTCP packets are seen (assuming they're not lost
of blocked, etc)?  What if they're never seen - fall back into the rough
jitter-depth solution?  (Of course, in the no-RTCP case you may eventually
have problems due to the audio being all assumed timestamps.)



FYI, is there a list of changes between -03 and -04 somewhere?  I hate
doing textual compares in IETF docs....

Thanks.

-- 
Randell Jesup, Worldgate Communications, ex-Scala, ex-Amiga OS team
rjesup@wgate.com
"The fetters imposed on liberty at home have ever been forged out of the weapons
provided for defence against real, pretended, or imaginary dangers from abroad."
		- James Madison, 4th US president (1751-1836)


_______________________________________________
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From: Matthew Romaine <Matthew.Romaine@jp.sony.com>
Subject: [AVT] ATRAC presentation outline
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Fellow AVTers,

Here's a brief summary of what I hope to cover on Tuesday.

1. Purpose
2. Background
3. Issues from -00
4. Codec Clarification
5. Frame Offset
6. MIME types
7. SDP Initialization
8. Offer-Answer Model
9. Open Issues

Just as a kind reminder, the -00 draft can be found here:

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hatanaka-avt-rtp-atrac- 
family-00.txt

Have a safe trip out,
Matt

----------------------------------------
Matthew M.I. Romaine
IMNC Audio Codec Group
Sony Corporation
phone: 03-5448-6065
fax: 03-5448-5617
----------------------------------------


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From: "Gunnar Hellstrom" <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
To: <toip@snowshore.com>, "Frank Shearar" <frank.shearar@rnid.org.uk>
Cc: "avt IETF" <avt@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [AVT] draft-ietf-avt-rfc2793bis-02 RTP packetisation for text conversation published
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 07:31:06 +0100
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Thanks Frank for good observations.

The two typos are obvious, thanks for spotting them.

The broken sentence in section 3.7 will be corrected during the IETF meet=
ing
next week.

Regards

Gunnar

-------------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
Omnitor AB
Renathv=E4gen 2
SE 121 37 Johanneshov
SWEDEN
+46 8 556 002 03
Mob: +46 708 204 288
www.omnitor.se
Gunnar.Hellstrom@Omnitor.se
--------------------------------------------


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-toip@snowshore.com [mailto:owner-toip@snowshore.com]On
Behalf Of Frank Shearar
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 4:58 PM
To: toip@snowshore.com
Subject: RE: [AVT] draft-ietf-avt-rfc2793bis-02 RTP packetisation for
text conversation published


Hi Gunnar,

The new draft has a sentence that I don't understand. You'll find it
at the end of section 3.7:

"If multiple timestamp rates are used by the audio payload types, it
is RECOMMENDED that different payload types for audio/t140 at all user
rates.."

What does it mean?

And two typos:

End of section 5, line 522 - "termporary" -> "temporary"

End of section 7.1, line 804 - "[9]rovides" -> "[9] provides"

Thanks,

frank

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_______________________________________________
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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----------wumilocanpsdksjoofmw--



_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



From exim@www1.ietf.org  Sun Feb 29 00:21:35 2004
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--> csp@csperkins.org writes:
> Everything inside the attach
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In case it isn't obvious, that was a forged virus message. I've reduced the
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list to 20k to try to prevent these messages in future.

-- 
Colin Perkins
http://csperkins.org/

_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



From exim@www1.ietf.org  Sun Feb 29 04:27:59 2004
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Cc: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>, csp@csperkins.org
From: Ladan Gharai <ladan@isi.edu>
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 04:25:09 -0500
To: IETF AVT WG <avt@ietf.org>
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Subject: [AVT] summary on draft draft-gharai-avt-tfrc-profile-00.txt
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AVTers:

The presentation on "RTP Profile for TCP Friendly Rate Control" 
(draft-gharai-avt-tfrc-profile-00.txt) will cover the following:

1. TFRC basics
2. The RTP Profile for TFRC
     -  RTP data header additions
     -  RTCP RR extensions
     -  The RTCP minimum intervals and TFRC
3.  Open Issues
     - AVT working group item?
     - Alternative approaches?
     - RTCP minimum intervals?
     - RTCP bandwidth?

Ladan


_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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Subject: [AVT] Summary on AMR-WB+ RTP payload format presentation
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hello,

Here is the summary of the presentation/discussion about the AVT agenda =
item "RTP payload format for AMR-WB+ audio codec" =
(draft-sjoberg-avt-rtp-amrwbplus-01.txt).

1. Issues & changes from version 00
- AMR-WB support
- number of channels signaling
2. Codec news from 3GPP TSG SA4
3. Next steps

---
Ari

> -----Original Message-----
> From: avt-admin@ietf.org [mailto:avt-admin@ietf.org]On Behalf Of ext
> Magnus Westerlund
> Sent: 24 February, 2004 17:56
> To: IETF AVT WG
> Cc: Colin Perkins
> Subject: [AVT] Presentation deadline for WG meeting
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> Anyone doing a presentation at the AVT WG is required to send their=20
> presentation to both chairs at the latest 19.00 pm korean=20
> time on Sunday=20
> the 29th. A summary of the issues to be discussed shall also=20
> be sent to=20
> the WG mailing list by then.
>=20
> Cheers
>=20
> Magnus Westerlund
>=20
> Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
> Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
> S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
>=20
>=20
>=20
> This communication is confidential and intended solely for=20
> the addressee(s). Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or=20
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> consequences thereof.
>=20
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> _______________________________________________
> Audio/Video Transport Working Group
> avt@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt
>=20

_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



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From: "Gunnar Hellstrom" <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
To: "IETF AVT WG" <avt@ietf.org>,
        "Magnus Westerlund" <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
Cc: "Toip list" <toip@snowshore.com>, "Colin Perkins" <csp@csperkins.org>
Subject: RE: [AVT] Presentation deadline for WG meeting
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 09:31:24 +0100
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Please find attached the presentation for the session on Tuesday morning,
called
"payload format for text conversation"

Request:

draft-ietf-avt-rfc2793bis-02.txt  : Ask the group to recommend for Last Call
draft-ietf-avt-text-red-01.txt    : Ask the group to recommend for Last Call
The other announced specifications: For Information about the usage of
RFC2793bis.

Regards

Gunnar Hellstrom

-------------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellstrom
Omnitor AB
Renathvagen 2
SE 121 37 Johanneshov
SWEDEN
+46 8 556 002 03
Mob: +46 708 204 288
www.omnitor.se
Gunnar.Hellstrom@Omnitor.se
--------------------------------------------


-----Original Message-----
From: avt-admin@ietf.org [mailto:avt-admin@ietf.org]On Behalf Of Magnus
Westerlund
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 4:56 PM
To: IETF AVT WG
Cc: Colin Perkins
Subject: [AVT] Presentation deadline for WG meeting


Hi,

Anyone doing a presentation at the AVT WG is required to send their
presentation to both chairs at the latest 19.00 pm korean time on Sunday
the 29th. A summary of the issues to be discussed shall also be sent to
the WG mailing list by then.

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com



This communication is confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s).
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you believe this message has been sent to you in error, please notify the
sender by replying to this transmission and delete the message without
disclosing it. Thank you.

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_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt


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////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
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_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



