From vsingh.ietf@gmail.com  Mon Aug  1 05:26:21 2011
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Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:26:23 +0300
From: Varun Singh <vsingh.ietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: [AVTCORE] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ott-avtcore-rtcp-overlay-multicast-01.txt
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Hi,

We have submitted a new draft on RTCP Overlay. This draft has two new sections compared to the expired draft:
11. Endpoint Reporting
12. Hop-by-hop RTCP reporting

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ott-avtcore-rtcp-overlay-multicast-01

The next update will contain protocol details and packet headers.

Regards,
Varun


Begin forwarded message:

> A new version of I-D, draft-ott-avtcore-rtcp-overlay-multicast-01.txt has been successfully submitted by Varun Singh and posted to the IETF repository.
> 
> Filename: draft-ott-avtcore-rtcp-overlay-multicast
> Revision: 01
> Title: Real-time Transport Control Protocol (RTCP) in Overlay Multicast
> Creation date: 2011-07-12
> WG ID: Individual Submission
> Number of pages: 14
> 
> Abstract:
>  The Real-time Transport Control Protocol(RTCP) is designed to operate
>  along with Real-time Transport Protocol(RTP) in unicast, single-
>  source multicast and any-source multicast environments. With the
>  availability of overlay multicast and Application Layer
>  Multicast(ALM), the suitability of RTCP in such environments need to
>  be analyzed. The applicability of the existing RTCP reporting
>  architectures in overlay multicast and ALM environments are
>  investigated and the new features that may be required are discussed
>  in this document.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The IETF Secretariat

----
Varun Singh
http://www.netlab.tkk.fi/~varun


From Ilan.Doron@audiocodes.com  Wed Aug 10 07:07:15 2011
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From: Ilan Doron <Ilan.Doron@audiocodes.com>
To: "avt@ietf.org" <avt@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Requesting redundancy level modification during a call
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Subject: [AVTCORE] Requesting redundancy level modification during a call
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Hello AVT Group
:) (1st post here...)

Assume a RTP call where rfc2198 redundancy is being used.
During the call I want to request the remote side to modify redundancy leve=
l being used.
Lets say request working with redundancy 2 instead of 1.

What is the preferred method for this?
RTP? RTCP? Other?

10x in advance.

Ilan Doron
System Software - R & D
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hello AVT Group</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Wingdings">J</span> (1<su=
p>st</sup> post here&#8230;)</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Assume a RTP call where rfc2198 redundancy is being =
used.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">During the call I want to request the remote side to=
 modify redundancy level being used.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Lets say request working with redundancy 2 instead o=
f 1.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">What is the preferred method for this? </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">RTP? RTCP? Other?</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">10x in advance.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#000042">Ilan Doron</span></b><b=
><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt; font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
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</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt; font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&q=
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From gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se  Wed Aug 10 09:05:26 2011
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Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Requesting redundancy level modification during a call
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Ilan,

The decisions on levels to use in RFC 2198 was discussed some years ago 
when RFC 4103 Real-time text was created.
It was then considered that the SDP for RFC 2198 shall not be seen as a 
full negotiation, but rather a declaration of capability to receive 
handle RFC 2198 and a declaration of the intended initial level of 
redundancy to be used if the other party also supports RFC 2198.

 From that initial level, RTCP RR could be observed and judged if there 
is a need to increase the levels.

The discussion is available in the avt archive from 2004.
Part of it is here:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf-mail-archive/avt/2004-04.mail

Regards

Gunnar
-----------------------------------

Ilan Doron skrev 2011-08-10 16:07:
>
> Hello AVT Group
>
> J (1^st post here...)
>
> Assume a RTP call where rfc2198 redundancy is being used.
>
> During the call I want to request the remote side to modify redundancy 
> level being used.
>
> Lets say request working with redundancy 2 instead of 1.
>
> What is the preferred method for this?
>
> RTP? RTCP? Other?
>
> 10x in advance.
>
> *Ilan Doron**
> *System Software - R & D
>
> *Tel*:         +972-3-9764354
> *Fax*:        +972-3-9764223
>
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    Ilan,<br>
    <br>
    The decisions on levels to use in RFC 2198 was discussed some years
    ago when RFC 4103 Real-time text was created.<br>
    It was then considered that the SDP for RFC 2198 shall not be seen
    as a full negotiation, but rather a declaration of capability to
    receive handle RFC 2198 and a declaration of the intended initial
    level of redundancy to be used if the other party also supports RFC
    2198.<br>
    <br>
    From that initial level, RTCP RR could be observed and judged if
    there is a need to increase the levels.<br>
    <br>
    The discussion is available in the avt archive from 2004.<br>
    Part of it is here:<br>
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf-mail-archive/avt/2004-04.mail">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf-mail-archive/avt/2004-04.mail</a><br>
    <br>
    Regards<br>
    <br>
    Gunnar<br>
    ----------------------------------- <br>
    <br>
    Ilan Doron skrev 2011-08-10 16:07:
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal">Hello AVT Group</p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Wingdings;">J</span>
          (1<sup>st</sup> post here&#8230;)</p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Assume a RTP call where rfc2198 redundancy
          is being used.</p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">During the call I want to request the
          remote side to modify redundancy level being used.
        </p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Lets say request working with redundancy 2
          instead of 1.</p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">What is the preferred method for this? </p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">RTP? RTCP? Other?</p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">10x in advance.</p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 9pt;
              font-family: &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
              color: rgb(0, 0, 66);">Ilan Doron</span></b><b><span
              style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
              &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;"><br>
            </span></b><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
            &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(192,
            80, 77);">System Software - R &amp; D</span><span
            style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
            &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: navy;"></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 9pt;
              font-family: &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
              color: rgb(0, 0, 66);">Tel</span></b><span
            style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
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            66);">:</span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
            &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
            +972-3-9764354<br>
            <b><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 66);">Fax</span></b><span
              style="color: rgb(0, 0, 66);">:</span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 9pt;
              font-family: &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
              color: rgb(0, 0, 66);" lang="FR">Mobi</span></b><b><span
              style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
              &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
              73, 125);" lang="FR">l</span></b><b><span
              style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
              &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(0, 0,
              66);" lang="FR">e</span></b><span style="font-size: 9pt;
            font-family: &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;"
            lang="FR">: &nbsp;&nbsp;+972-54</span><span dir="RTL"></span><span
            dir="RTL" style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
            &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;" lang="HE"><span
              dir="RTL"></span>-</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span
            style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
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              dir="LTR"></span>6262-775<br>
            <b><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 66);">Email</span></b><span
              style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a
                moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:iland@audiocodes.com"><span style="color:
                  blue;">iland@audiocodes.com</span></a>
            </span></span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
            &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(51, 51,
            153);"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:Golan.Buznak@audiocodes.comWeb"><span
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              </span></a></span><b><span style="font-size: 9pt;
              font-family: &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
              color: rgb(0, 0, 66);" lang="FR">Web</span></b><span
            style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
            &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(0, 0,
            66);" lang="FR">:</span><span style="font-size: 9pt;
            font-family: &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;"
            lang="FR"> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span style="font-size: 9pt;
            font-family: &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
            color: rgb(51, 51, 153);"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
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            style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
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          </span><span style="font-size: 5pt;" lang="FR">&nbsp;</span><span
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              font-family: &quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
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        <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style=""><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
              font-family: &quot;Comic Sans MS&quot;; color: green;"><img
                id="Picture_x0020_2"
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        <p class="MsoNormal" style=""><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
              font-family: &quot;Comic Sans MS&quot;; color: green;">Somewhere
              there is a tree thanking you for cutting back on
              printing...</span></b><span dir="RTL" style="font-family:
            &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(0, 32,
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      <pre wrap="">
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:avt@ietf.org">avt@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt</a>
</pre>
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From: Ilan Doron <Ilan.Doron@audiocodes.com>
To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Gunnar_Hellstr=F6m?= <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>, "avt@ietf.org" <avt@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [AVTCORE] Requesting redundancy level modification during a call
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Thank u Gunnar

To clarify.
I am not looking for a solution only in this specific scenario - though it =
is relevant...

Assume I want the remote side to perform some specific changes, so I want t=
o send a command or request to the remote side requesting it what to do.

Would it be better to use RTCP?
Lets say RTCP FB (rfc4585) or some new RTCP pacet type.
Or maybe use a new RTP profile?

I know both are optional but how would it be done?

Ilan Doron

From: avt-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:avt-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Gunna=
r Hellstr?m
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 19:06
To: avt@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Requesting redundancy level modification during a ca=
ll

Ilan,

The decisions on levels to use in RFC 2198 was discussed some years ago whe=
n RFC 4103 Real-time text was created.
It was then considered that the SDP for RFC 2198 shall not be seen as a ful=
l negotiation, but rather a declaration of capability to receive handle RFC=
 2198 and a declaration of the intended initial level of redundancy to be u=
sed if the other party also supports RFC 2198.

>From that initial level, RTCP RR could be observed and judged if there is a=
 need to increase the levels.

The discussion is available in the avt archive from 2004.
Part of it is here:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf-mail-archive/avt/2004-04.mail

Regards

Gunnar
-----------------------------------

Ilan Doron skrev 2011-08-10 16:07:
Hello AVT Group
:) (1st post here...)

Assume a RTP call where rfc2198 redundancy is being used.
During the call I want to request the remote side to modify redundancy leve=
l being used.
Lets say request working with redundancy 2 instead of 1.

What is the preferred method for this?
RTP? RTCP? Other?

10x in advance.

Ilan Doron
System Software - R & D
Tel:         +972-3-9764354
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thank u Gunnar</span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">To clarify.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I am not looking for a=
 solution only in this specific scenario - though it is relevant&#8230;</sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Assume I want the remo=
te side to perform some specific changes, so I want to send a command or re=
quest to the remote side requesting it what to do.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;A=
rial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Would it be better to use=
 RTCP?</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;A=
rial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Lets say RTCP FB (rfc4585=
) or some new RTCP pacet type.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;A=
rial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Or maybe use a new RTP pr=
ofile?</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;A=
rial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;A=
rial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">I know both are optional =
but how would it be done?</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;A=
rial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;A=
rial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Ilan Doron</span><span st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D"></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quo=
t;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:windowtext">From:</span></b><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;; color:windowtext"> avt-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:avt-bounces@ietf=
.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Gunnar Hellstr?m<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 10, 2011 19:06<br>
<b>To:</b> avt@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [AVTCORE] Requesting redundancy level modification duri=
ng a call</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ilan,<br>
<br>
The decisions on levels to use in RFC 2198 was discussed some years ago whe=
n RFC 4103 Real-time text was created.<br>
It was then considered that the SDP for RFC 2198 shall not be seen as a ful=
l negotiation, but rather a declaration of capability to receive handle RFC=
 2198 and a declaration of the intended initial level of redundancy to be u=
sed if the other party also supports
 RFC 2198.<br>
<br>
>From that initial level, RTCP RR could be observed and judged if there is a=
 need to increase the levels.<br>
<br>
The discussion is available in the avt archive from 2004.<br>
Part of it is here:<br>
<a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf-mail-archive/avt/2004-04.mail">ftp://ftp=
.ietf.org/ietf-mail-archive/avt/2004-04.mail</a><br>
<br>
Regards<br>
<br>
Gunnar<br>
----------------------------------- <br>
<br>
Ilan Doron skrev 2011-08-10 16:07: </p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hello AVT Group</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Wingdings">J</span> (1<su=
p>st</sup> post here&#8230;)</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Assume a RTP call where rfc2198 redundancy is being =
used.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">During the call I want to request the remote side to=
 modify redundancy level being used.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Lets say request working with redundancy 2 instead o=
f 1.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">What is the preferred method for this? </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">RTP? RTCP? Other?</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">10x in advance.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#000042">Ilan Doron</span></b><b=
><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt; font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
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<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________</pre>
<pre>Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance</pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:avt@ietf.org">avt@ietf.org</a></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt">https://www.ietf=
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--_005_4BFBA0DE3469444C96D676A6EDEE49972DC1F662aclmbx01corpaud_--

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Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 10:00:31 +0300
From: Roni Even <Even.roni@huawei.com>
To: 'AVT Core WG' <avt@ietf.org>
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Subject: [AVTCORE] IETF 81 meeting report
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Hi,

This is the draft report for the AVTcore session in IETF81

Please review

Roni Even

AVTcore co-chair

 

 

Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance (AVTCore) Working Group Minutes IETF
81

 

Chairs: Magnus Westerlund 

 Roni Even

 

Note Takers:    Brian Rosen

                        Bill VerSteeg

 

AVTCore Introduction and Status Update

 

These are the minutes for the AVTCore WG. The payload and XRblock WG did not
meet and the status was presented in AVText session.

The WG has published 7 RFCs, has 1 documents in AUTH48, and an additional 1
in the RFC-editors queue, and 1 documents with the AD or IESG. 

There are three WG documents that are not going to be discussed here today.
draft-ietf-avtcore-srtp-vbr-audio has just finished WG last call and is
ready for publication, but have received some minor comments that should be
addressed before publication request. draft-ietf-avt-srtp-ekt-02 and
draft-ietf-avt-srtp-aes-gcm-01 both needs review. 

 

Then the chairs reviewed the WG's milestones. We are already late on the RTP
monitoring architecture and the guidelines for VBR with SRTP. The later is
mostly done, but the monitoring architecture requires more work and needs to
be rescheduled.

 

The RTP Payload Format media types registry is not up to date. There was a
discussion what to do. Update it or discontinue it. The consensus is that
there is value on this registry and the payload chairs (Roni Even) will
update it. We will need to verify that it is updated with every new RTP
payload registered with IANA when registering in the general media type
registry.

 

Roni introduced a slide on  draft-singh-avtcore-mprtp-02 that did not get a
time slot since there was little email action on it.

 

 

 

 

Encryption of Header Extensions in SRTP

 

Jonathan Lennox presented draft-ietf-avtcore-srtp-encrypted-header-ext-00.
Action item for Jonathan to try to contact the GCM/AEAD authors in order to
support not only CTR.

Other issues were about having the references correct including the security
references.

 

RTCP Extension for Feedback Suppression Indication

Qin Wu presented draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-05. The open
comments were resolved. If there will be no more comments on the list, the
document will go to WGLC. 

 

 

 

Monitoring Architectures for RTP

Qin Wu Presented draft-ietf-avtcore-monarch-03.

The major open issue was about the identity block

 

Colin Perkins said that for correlating reports we have SSRC.  For
correlation of RTP with non RTP, we have source descriptions.  Fits better
in SDES. The chairs asked if there is a need for the identity block at all
and Colin see no need. There should be a use case to show a usage of
identity  block if want to keep it.

The draft will be revised accordingly and will see if ready for WGLC.

 

 

 

 

 

RTP Multiple Stream Sessions and Simulcast

Magnus presented draft-westerlund-avtcore-multistream-and-simulcast-00.

 

The first issue discussed was what type of simulcast is this and if the term
is correct, Magnus says that the draft defines it and he does not have a
better term. There was also a question if it is about simulcast or general
multistreams.

The next topic was about what is meant by multistreams and how it relates to
CLUE work. Magnus response was that it is about multiple RTP sessions,
typically one per video stream and one per video stream. The work addresses
only the RTP layer and not the CLUE framework multi-stream usage which may
need the support on the RTP layer.

Another topic in the draft is Bandwidth, talk about two issues, one of flow
control and the other is different bandwidth for send and receive, there
were comments that it affects also RTCP traffic. It looks like there is
interest in the topic but was considered during the discussion to be a
separate topic from the simulcast multiple streams.

On the SSDP signaling Useful for Retransmission, redundancy and simulcast
Jonathan Lennox - we have solutions for retransmission, but they are awful.
This would make it much better.

The general feeling was that the draft offers solution but the problem it
wants to address is broad and not clear, would like to start with
architecture description and requirements. Hadriel claimed that it may
require a new WG on the topic.

There was a strong HUM to start working on architecture of simulcast,
multistream. The BW is a separate issue.

 

 

 

 

Delayed Duplication Attribute and Duplication Grouping in SDP

 

Two MMUSIC drafts were presented by Ali Begen since there is a relation to
AVTcore.

 

draft-begen-mmusic-temporal-interleaving-02 - This draft propose to
duplicate the main stream with one or more copies which are delayed. The
major issue raised was that if the loss is due to congestion this will make
it worse.

Some of the comments that were made:

 

Colin - failures may be a valid reason to do this, not congestion

Colin - exact dupes need to be sent in a separate session. Payload type
SHOULD be the same, but nothing breaks if you use a different payload type

Colin - about signaling, if you have a box that does not understand the SDP,
it will try to render both streams

Jonathan Lennox - what is the cause of these outages if it is not
congestion? Something between every packet and partial stream?

Ali Begen- routing errors cause data loss - particularly in core networks.

Other comments were that this looks like a FEC with worst algorithm. It make
sense if CPU resources are more expensive then network bandwidth.

Ted Hardie- need an applicability statement, place where this is a bad idea
- subject to a "stupidity attack" based on a bug or bad configuration

Chairs: This is an MMUSIC draft but the issues raised are relevant to
AVTcore so need to be addressed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

draft-begen-mmusic-redundancy-grouping-01

 

This is the SDP for grouping, was discussed in MMUSIC

Comments:

Colin - these streams presumably send RTCP back - does this work with
encryption?

Colin - You do not need a new XR report. The middlebox is just a mixer.

Ali - there may be additional elements to report.

Colin - the existing mixer semantics would probably work.

Magnus  - there are grouping issues, and we need to figure out which group
addresses it, currently MMUSIC.

 

 

 

Retransmission for SSM sessions

Ali Begen presented draft-vancaenegem-avtcore-retransmission-for-ssm-00.

There was no discussion. An open issue if this is AVTCore or AVText since it
address a specific use case.

 

RTP Session Multiplexing

 

 

 

Magnus introduced the topic it came from discussion in RTCWEB. RTP requires
a lower transport layer to separate RTP sessions on the other hand desire to
use one UDP port to address NAT/FW and IPv4 issues. 

There was a breakout session and the proposal is to have a short term
solution that will use one RTP session for audio and video for RTCWEB. This
usage will be signaled. The RTCweb solution will also allow fallback to
separate sessions for audio and video to be used for example for FEC, and
backward interoperability. 

There will be work also on a long term solution which provides a generic
muxing solution of multiple RTP sessions by adding an explicit RTP session
identifier somewhere.

Some of the comments:

Bill VerSteeg - need to consider the multicast case in AVT, as the RTCWEB
folks are primarily considering unicast 

Adam Roach - questioning the number of media streams allowed - multiplexing
could have an arbitrary number of flows. 

Magnus - talking about one session for all streams.

Harald - applications do not have to use multiplexed sessions, but they may

Colin - FEC cases may not always work with session multiplexing, but
Audio/Video/Text will work

There was a question if short term is different than long term. This is not
defined yet.

The chairs took a HUM if there is an interest in working on this issue in
AVTcore and there was a strong consensus.

Bill VerSteeg and Colin Perkins volunteered to work on requirements for long
term solution.

 


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<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>This is the draft report for the AVTcore session in IETF81<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Please review<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Roni Even<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span st
 yle='fon
:"Times New Roman","serif"'>AVTcore co-chair<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance (AVTCore) Working Group Minutes IETF 81<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font
 -family:
'>Chairs: Magnus Westerlund <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:.5in;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;Roni Even<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Note Takers: &nbsp;&nbsp; Brian Rosen<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Bill VerSteeg<o:p></o:p></span></p><p cl
 ass=MsoN
m:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>AVTCore Introduction and Status Update<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>These are the minutes for the AVTCore WG. The payload and XRblock WG did not meet and the status was presented in AVText session.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
  New Rom
ublished 7 RFCs, has 1 documents in AUTH48, and an additional 1 in the RFC-editors queue, and 1 documents with the AD or IESG. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>There are three WG documents that are not going to be discussed here today. draft-ietf-avtcore-srtp-vbr-audio has just finished WG last call and is ready for publication, but have received some minor comments that should be addressed before publication request. draft-ietf-avt-srtp-ekt-02 and draft-ietf-avt-srtp-aes-gcm-01 both needs review. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
  Roman",
reviewed the WG&#8217;s milestones. We are already late on the RTP monitoring architecture and the guidelines for VBR with SRTP. The later is mostly done, but the monitoring architecture requires more work and needs to be rescheduled.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=Default>The RTP Payload Format media types registry is not up to date. There was a discussion what to do. Update it or discontinue it. The consensus is that there is value on this registry and the payload chairs (Roni Even) will update it. We will need to verify that it is updated with every new RTP payload registered with IANA when registering in the general media type registry.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=Default><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Ro
 ni intro
aft-singh-avtcore-mprtp-02 that did not get a time slot since there was little email action on it.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=Default><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=Default><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Encryption of Header Extensions in SRTP</span></b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"
 Times Ne
o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Jonathan Lennox presented draft-ietf-avtcore-srtp-encrypted-header-ext-00. Action item for </span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Jonathan to try to contact the GCM/AEAD authors in order to support not only CTR.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Other issues were about having the references correct including the security references.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>RTCP Extension for Fe
 edback S
></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Qin Wu presented draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-05. The open comments were resolved. If there will be no more comments on the list, the document will go to WGLC. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;li
 ne-heigh
'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Monitoring Architectures for RTP<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Qin Wu Presented </span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>draft-ietf-avtcore-monarch-03.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> The major open issue was about the identity block<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Colin Perkins said that for correlating reports we have SSRC.&nbsp; For correlation of RTP with non RTP, we have source descriptions.&nbsp; Fits better in SDES. The chairs as
 ked if t
entity block at all and Colin see no need. There should be a use case to show a usage of identity&nbsp; block if want to keep it.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>The draft will be revised accordingly and will see if ready for WGLC.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span st
 yle='fon
:"Times New Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>RTP Multiple Stream Sessions and Simulcast</span></b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Magnus presented </span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>draft-westerlund-avtcore-multistream-and-simulcast-00.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p cla
 ss=MsoNo
:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>The first issue discussed was what type of simulcast is this and if the term is correct, Magnus says that the draft defines it and he does not have a better term. There was also a question if it is about simulcast or general multistreams.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>The next topic was about what is meant by multistreams and how it relates to CLUE work. Magnus response was that it is about multiple RTP sessions, typically one per video stream and one per video stream. The work addresses only the RTP layer and not the CLUE framework multi-stream usage which may need the support on the RTP layer.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Another topic in the draft is Bandwidth, talk abo
 ut two i
l and the other is different bandwidth for send and receive, there were comments that it affects also RTCP traffic. It looks like there is interest in the topic but was considered during the discussion to be a separate topic from the simulcast multiple streams.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>On the SSDP signaling </span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Useful for Retransmission, redundancy and simulcast Jonathan Lennox - we have solutions for retransmission, but they are awful.&nbsp; This would make it much better.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>The general feeling was that the draft offers solution but the problem it wants to address is broad and not clear, would like to start with architecture description and requirements. Hadriel clai
 med that
on the topic.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>There was a strong HUM to start working on architecture of simulcast, multistream. The BW is a separate issue.</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></sp
 an></p><
margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Delayed Duplication Attribute and Duplication Grouping in SDP</span></b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Two MMUSIC drafts were presented by Ali Begen since there is a relation to AVTcore.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;lin
 e-height
t-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>draft-begen-mmusic-temporal-interleaving-02 &#8211; This draft propose to duplicate the main stream with one or more copies which are delayed. The major issue raised was that if the loss is due to congestion this will make it worse.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Some of the comments that were made:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Colin &#8211; failures may be a valid reason to do this, not congestion<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New 
 Roman","
ct dupes need to be sent in a separate session. Payload type SHOULD be the same, but nothing breaks if you use a different payload type<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Colin &#8211; about signaling, if you have a box that does not understand the SDP, it will try to render both streams<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Jonathan Lennox &#8211; what is the cause of these outages if it is not congestion? Something between every packet and partial stream?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Ali Begen&#8211; routing errors cause data loss &#8211; particularly in core networks.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Other comm
 ents wer
FEC with worst algorithm. It make sense if CPU resources are more expensive then network bandwidth.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Ted Hardie&#8211; need an applicability statement, place where this is a bad idea &#8211; subject to a &#8220;stupidity attack&#8221; based on a bug or bad configuration<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Chairs: This is an MMUSIC draft but the issues raised are relevant to AVTcore so need to be addressed.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p>&
 nbsp;</o
oNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> draft-begen-mmusic-redundancy-grouping-01</span><span style='
 font-siz
es New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>This is the SDP for grouping, was discussed in MMUSIC<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Comments:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Colin &#8211; these streams presumably send RTCP back &#8211; does this work with encryption?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Colin &#8211; You do 
 not need
dlebox is just a mixer.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Ali &#8211; there may be additional elements to report.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Colin &#8211; the existing mixer semantics would probably work.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Magnus&nbsp; - there are grouping issues, and we need to figure out which group addresses it, currently MMUSIC.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif
 "'><o:p>
 class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Retransmission for SSM sessions<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Ali Begen presented draft-vancaenegem-avtcore-retransmission-for-ssm-00</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>There was no discussion. An open issue if this is AVTCore or AVText since it address a specific use case.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font
 -family:
'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>RTP Session Multiplexing<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.25in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Magnus introduced the topic it came from discussion in RTCWEB. RT
 P requir
r to separate RTP sessions on the other hand desire to use one UDP port to address NAT/FW and IPv4 issues. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.25in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>There was a breakout session and the proposal is to have a short term solution that will use one RTP session for audio and video for RTCWEB. This usage will be signaled. </span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>The RTCweb solution will also allow fallback to separate sessions for audio and video to be used for example for FEC, and backward interoperability. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.25in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>There will be work also on a long term solution</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> </span><span style='font
 -size:12
t-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>which provides a generic muxing solution of multiple RTP sessions by adding an explicit RTP session identifier somewhere.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Some of the comments:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Bill VerSteeg &#8211; need to consider the multicast case in AVT, as the RTCWEB folks are primarily considering unicast <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Adam Roach &#8211; questioning the number of media streams allowed &#8211; multiplexing could have an arbitrary number of flows. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Magnus &#8211; talking about one session for all stream
 s.<o:p><
MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Harald &#8211; applications do not have to use multiplexed sessions, but they may<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Colin &#8211; FEC cases may not always work with session multiplexing, but Audio/Video/Text will work<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>There was a question if short term is different than long term. This is not defined yet.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>The chairs took a HUM if there is an interest in working on this issue in AVTcore and there was a strong consensus.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>B
 ill VerS
lunteered to work on requirements for long term solution.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>

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Subject: [AVTCORE] Additional use cases for draft-brandenburg-avt-rtcp-for-idms
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In reviewing the IDMS draft I had volunteered to contribute additional use
cases. Ray Brandenberg suggested that I post them here.

 

Kevin Gross

AVA Networks

Networked stereo loudspeakers

Because of our ability to localize sound based on inter-aural time
differences, in a stereo listening situation, we are very sensitive to
changes in latency between the two speakers. These changes are perceived as
a shift in or instability of the "sound stage" during critical listening.
These effects are readily noticeable with shifts of 10 microseconds or
smaller. If the individual speakers in a stereo listening setup operate from
independent network interfaces any changing difference in latency between
the two speakers greater than 10 microseconds will be detrimental to the
listening experience.

Conferencing sound reinforcement system

A conferencing sound reinforcement system is used in commercial and
government installations such as legislative chambers, courtrooms,
boardrooms, classrooms (especially those supporting distance learning) and
other such venues. Each participant using such a system has a microphone and
a speaker. There may also be other speakers to provide reinforcement for
non-speaking participants such as in an audience area or jury box. Each
microphone/speaker pair is individually connected to a network and transmits
digital audio to the other devices through the network and receives digital
audio to be reproduced through the speaker over the network. There may be a
central appliance which receives, prioritizes and mixes the microphone
signals. In some systems an individual mix is created for each speaker such
that a speaker's own voice does not come out from his speaker or from those
immediately surrounding him.

The objective of these systems is to provide enough gain to enhance
intelligibility but not so much that the speaker sounds or feels amplified.
Meeting this objective helps insure that natural person-to-person
communication is retained. To this end, it is desirable that the sound
through the system and from the speakers arrive 5 to 30 milliseconds after
the the sound arriving through the air from the person speaking. Delays in
this range invoke the Haas effect which allows listeners to locate the
person speaking based on the sound arriving through the air while the sound
reinforcement system provides the additional gain required to achieve
desired intelligibility. It is also desirable for the sound to come out of
nearby speakers at within 5 milliseconds as longer differential delays will
be perceived as reverberation or echo.

Video wall

A video wall consists of multiple computer monitors, video projectors, or
television sets tiled together contiguously or overlapped in order to form
one large screen.# Each of the screens reproduces a portion of the larger
picture. In some implementations, each screen may be individually connected
to the network and receive its portion of the overall image from a
network-connected video server or video scaler. Screens are refreshed at 60
hertz (every 16-2/3 milliseconds) or potentially faster. If the refresh is
not synchronized, the effect of multiple screens acting as one is broken.

Phased array transducers

Phased array and wave field synthesis techniques are increasingly used in
audio applications. These techniques work by sending or receiving slightly
different versions of a signal in a spacial sampling arrangement to produce
or record spacial and directional sound fields. The individual transducers
in these applications can be extremely sensitive to differential latency.
Example applications include conferencing microphone systems able to
electronically aim at the person speaking to improve signal to noise ratio.
These microphones are also able to report the location of the speaker for
purposes of automatically aiming a video camera at them.

Concert sound systems called line arrays allow technicians control over the
amount of sound sent to different places. People in the front of the
audience can have the same loudness as those in the back. By preventing
sound from reaching the roof and back wall of the performance space, the
amount of reflected sound heard by the audience is reduced and the listening
experience is improved.

In these systems, accuracy in locating or emitting sound is related to
differential latency through basic trigonometry. In these applications,
microseconds of differential latency can translate to degrees of
uncertainty. Accuracy greater than the audio sample period (about 20
microseconds for professional 48 kHz sample rate) is generally desired.

 


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vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>In =
reviewing the IDMS draft I had volunteered to contribute additional use =
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class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Kevin =
Gross<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>AVA Networks<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>N=
etworked stereo loudspeakers</span></b><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Because of our =
ability to localize sound based on inter-aural time differences, in a =
stereo listening situation, we are very sensitive to changes in latency =
between the two speakers. These changes are perceived as a shift in or =
instability of the &#8220;sound stage&#8221; during critical listening. =
These effects are readily noticeable with shifts of 10 microseconds or =
smaller. If the individual speakers in a stereo listening setup operate =
from independent network interfaces any changing difference in latency =
between the two speakers greater than 10 microseconds will be =
detrimental to the listening experience.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>C=
onferencing sound reinforcement system</span></b><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>A conferencing =
sound reinforcement system is used in commercial and government =
installations such as legislative chambers, courtrooms, boardrooms, =
classrooms (especially those supporting distance learning) and other =
such venues. Each participant using such a system has a microphone and a =
speaker. There may also be other speakers to provide reinforcement for =
non-speaking participants such as in an audience area or jury box. Each =
microphone/speaker pair is individually connected to a network and =
transmits digital audio to the other devices through the network and =
receives digital audio to be reproduced through the speaker over the =
network. There may be a central appliance which receives, prioritizes =
and mixes the microphone signals. In some systems an individual mix is =
created for each speaker such that a speaker&#8217;s own voice does not =
come out from his speaker or from those immediately surrounding =
him.</span><span style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><br><br></span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>The objective of =
these systems is to provide enough gain to enhance intelligibility but =
not so much that the speaker sounds or feels amplified. Meeting this =
objective helps insure that natural person-to-person communication is =
retained. To this end, it is desirable that the sound through the system =
and from the speakers arrive 5 to 30 milliseconds after the the sound =
arriving through the air from the person speaking. Delays in this range =
invoke the Haas effect which allows listeners to locate the person =
speaking based on the sound arriving through the air while the sound =
reinforcement system provides the additional gain required to achieve =
desired intelligibility. It is also desirable for the sound to come out =
of nearby speakers at within 5 milliseconds as longer differential =
delays will be perceived as reverberation or echo.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>V=
ideo wall</span></b><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>A video wall =
consists of multiple computer monitors, video projectors, or television =
sets tiled together contiguously or overlapped in order to form one =
large screen.# Each of the screens reproduces a portion of the larger =
picture. In some implementations, each screen may be individually =
connected to the network and receive its portion of the overall image =
from a network-connected video server or video scaler. Screens are =
refreshed at 60 hertz (every 16-2/3 milliseconds) or potentially faster. =
If the refresh is not synchronized, the effect of multiple screens =
acting as one is broken.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>P=
hased array transducers</span></b><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Phased array and =
wave field synthesis techniques are increasingly used in audio =
applications. These techniques work by sending or receiving slightly =
different versions of a signal in a spacial sampling arrangement to =
produce or record spacial and directional sound fields. The individual =
transducers in these applications can be extremely sensitive to =
differential latency. Example applications include conferencing =
microphone systems able to electronically aim at the person speaking to =
improve signal to noise ratio. These microphones are also able to report =
the location of the speaker for purposes of automatically aiming a video =
camera at them.</span><span style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times =
New Roman","serif";color:black'><br><br></span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Concert sound =
systems called line arrays allow technicians control over the amount of =
sound sent to different places. People in the front of the audience can =
have the same loudness as those in the back. By preventing sound from =
reaching the roof and back wall of the performance space, the amount of =
reflected sound heard by the audience is reduced and the listening =
experience is improved.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><br><br></span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>In these systems, =
accuracy in locating or emitting sound is related to differential =
latency through basic trigonometry. In these applications, microseconds =
of differential latency can translate to degrees of uncertainty. =
Accuracy greater than the audio sample period (about 20 microseconds for =
professional 48 kHz sample rate) is generally desired.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>
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Mr. Gross,

The timing assertion for Networked stereo loudspeakers is much tighter
that I would have expected. Placement of stereo speakers within a foot
is a normal rule of thumb for the casual listener - and that  is about
1.1ms delta at room temperature. The ' golden ears' do have ability to
detect small differences especially with high attack waveforms, but I
would like to see the study that showed this small time difference. Can
you please provide a cite?=20

And I wonder if the system requirement should be based on the smallest
known delta, unless there is no implementation complexity added to
convey the suggested resolution.=20

=20

=20

Art Allison=20
Senior Director Advanced Engineering, Science and Technology=20
National Association of Broadcasters
1771 N Street NW
Washington, DC 20036
Phone  202 429 5418
Fax  202 775 4981=20
www.nab.org <blocked::http://www.nab.org> =20
Advocacy  Education  Innovation=20

From: avt-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:avt-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Kevin Gross
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 11:48 PM
To: 'IETF AVTCore WG'
Subject: [AVTCORE] Additional use cases
fordraft-brandenburg-avt-rtcp-for-idms

=20

In reviewing the IDMS draft I had volunteered to contribute additional
use cases. Ray Brandenberg suggested that I post them here.

=20

Kevin Gross

AVA Networks

Networked stereo loudspeakers

Because of our ability to localize sound based on inter-aural time
differences, in a stereo listening situation, we are very sensitive to
changes in latency between the two speakers. These changes are perceived
as a shift in or instability of the "sound stage" during critical
listening. These effects are readily noticeable with shifts of 10
microseconds or smaller. If the individual speakers in a stereo
listening setup operate from independent network interfaces any changing
difference in latency between the two speakers greater than 10
microseconds will be detrimental to the listening experience.

Conferencing sound reinforcement system

A conferencing sound reinforcement system is used in commercial and
government installations such as legislative chambers, courtrooms,
boardrooms, classrooms (especially those supporting distance learning)
and other such venues. Each participant using such a system has a
microphone and a speaker. There may also be other speakers to provide
reinforcement for non-speaking participants such as in an audience area
or jury box. Each microphone/speaker pair is individually connected to a
network and transmits digital audio to the other devices through the
network and receives digital audio to be reproduced through the speaker
over the network. There may be a central appliance which receives,
prioritizes and mixes the microphone signals. In some systems an
individual mix is created for each speaker such that a speaker's own
voice does not come out from his speaker or from those immediately
surrounding him.

The objective of these systems is to provide enough gain to enhance
intelligibility but not so much that the speaker sounds or feels
amplified. Meeting this objective helps insure that natural
person-to-person communication is retained. To this end, it is desirable
that the sound through the system and from the speakers arrive 5 to 30
milliseconds after the the sound arriving through the air from the
person speaking. Delays in this range invoke the Haas effect which
allows listeners to locate the person speaking based on the sound
arriving through the air while the sound reinforcement system provides
the additional gain required to achieve desired intelligibility. It is
also desirable for the sound to come out of nearby speakers at within 5
milliseconds as longer differential delays will be perceived as
reverberation or echo.

Video wall

A video wall consists of multiple computer monitors, video projectors,
or television sets tiled together contiguously or overlapped in order to
form one large screen.# Each of the screens reproduces a portion of the
larger picture. In some implementations, each screen may be individually
connected to the network and receive its portion of the overall image
from a network-connected video server or video scaler. Screens are
refreshed at 60 hertz (every 16-2/3 milliseconds) or potentially faster.
If the refresh is not synchronized, the effect of multiple screens
acting as one is broken.

Phased array transducers

Phased array and wave field synthesis techniques are increasingly used
in audio applications. These techniques work by sending or receiving
slightly different versions of a signal in a spacial sampling
arrangement to produce or record spacial and directional sound fields.
The individual transducers in these applications can be extremely
sensitive to differential latency. Example applications include
conferencing microphone systems able to electronically aim at the person
speaking to improve signal to noise ratio. These microphones are also
able to report the location of the speaker for purposes of automatically
aiming a video camera at them.

Concert sound systems called line arrays allow technicians control over
the amount of sound sent to different places. People in the front of the
audience can have the same loudness as those in the back. By preventing
sound from reaching the roof and back wall of the performance space, the
amount of reflected sound heard by the audience is reduced and the
listening experience is improved.

In these systems, accuracy in locating or emitting sound is related to
differential latency through basic trigonometry. In these applications,
microseconds of differential latency can translate to degrees of
uncertainty. Accuracy greater than the audio sample period (about 20
microseconds for professional 48 kHz sample rate) is generally desired.

=20


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Mr. Gross,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The timing assertion for =
Networked stereo loudspeakers is much tighter that I would have =
expected. Placement of stereo speakers within a foot is a normal rule of =
thumb for the casual listener &#8211; and that &nbsp;is about 1.1ms =
delta at room temperature. The &#8216; golden ears&#8217; do have =
ability to detect small differences especially with high attack =
waveforms, but I would like to see the study that showed this small time =
difference. Can you please provide a cite? <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>And I wonder if the =
system requirement should be based on the smallest known delta, unless =
there is no implementation complexity added to convey the suggested =
resolution. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>Art Allison</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'> <br></span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>Senior Director Advanced Engineering, Science and =
Technology</span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'> <br></span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>National Association of Broadcasters<br>1771 N Street NW<br>Washington, =
DC 20036<br>Phone&nbsp; 202 429 5418<br>Fax&nbsp; 202 775 =
4981</span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'> <br><a =
href=3D"blocked::http://www.nab.org"><b><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>www.nab.org</span></b></a> =
<br></span><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#FF8000'=
>Advocacy &nbsp;Education&nbsp; Innovation</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
avt-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:avt-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>Kevin Gross<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 15, 2011 11:48 =
PM<br><b>To:</b> 'IETF AVTCore WG'<br><b>Subject:</b> [AVTCORE] =
Additional use cases =
fordraft-brandenburg-avt-rtcp-for-idms<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>In =
reviewing the IDMS draft I had volunteered to contribute additional use =
cases. Ray Brandenberg suggested that I post them here.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Kevin =
Gross<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>AVA Networks<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>N=
etworked stereo loudspeakers</span></b><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Because of our =
ability to localize sound based on inter-aural time differences, in a =
stereo listening situation, we are very sensitive to changes in latency =
between the two speakers. These changes are perceived as a shift in or =
instability of the &#8220;sound stage&#8221; during critical listening. =
These effects are readily noticeable with shifts of 10 microseconds or =
smaller. If the individual speakers in a stereo listening setup operate =
from independent network interfaces any changing difference in latency =
between the two speakers greater than 10 microseconds will be =
detrimental to the listening experience.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>C=
onferencing sound reinforcement system</span></b><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>A conferencing =
sound reinforcement system is used in commercial and government =
installations such as legislative chambers, courtrooms, boardrooms, =
classrooms (especially those supporting distance learning) and other =
such venues. Each participant using such a system has a microphone and a =
speaker. There may also be other speakers to provide reinforcement for =
non-speaking participants such as in an audience area or jury box. Each =
microphone/speaker pair is individually connected to a network and =
transmits digital audio to the other devices through the network and =
receives digital audio to be reproduced through the speaker over the =
network. There may be a central appliance which receives, prioritizes =
and mixes the microphone signals. In some systems an individual mix is =
created for each speaker such that a speaker&#8217;s own voice does not =
come out from his speaker or from those immediately surrounding =
him.</span><span style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><br><br></span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>The objective of =
these systems is to provide enough gain to enhance intelligibility but =
not so much that the speaker sounds or feels amplified. Meeting this =
objective helps insure that natural person-to-person communication is =
retained. To this end, it is desirable that the sound through the system =
and from the speakers arrive 5 to 30 milliseconds after the the sound =
arriving through the air from the person speaking. Delays in this range =
invoke the Haas effect which allows listeners to locate the person =
speaking based on the sound arriving through the air while the sound =
reinforcement system provides the additional gain required to achieve =
desired intelligibility. It is also desirable for the sound to come out =
of nearby speakers at within 5 milliseconds as longer differential =
delays will be perceived as reverberation or echo.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>V=
ideo wall</span></b><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>A video wall =
consists of multiple computer monitors, video projectors, or television =
sets tiled together contiguously or overlapped in order to form one =
large screen.# Each of the screens reproduces a portion of the larger =
picture. In some implementations, each screen may be individually =
connected to the network and receive its portion of the overall image =
from a network-connected video server or video scaler. Screens are =
refreshed at 60 hertz (every 16-2/3 milliseconds) or potentially faster. =
If the refresh is not synchronized, the effect of multiple screens =
acting as one is broken.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>P=
hased array transducers</span></b><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Phased array and =
wave field synthesis techniques are increasingly used in audio =
applications. These techniques work by sending or receiving slightly =
different versions of a signal in a spacial sampling arrangement to =
produce or record spacial and directional sound fields. The individual =
transducers in these applications can be extremely sensitive to =
differential latency. Example applications include conferencing =
microphone systems able to electronically aim at the person speaking to =
improve signal to noise ratio. These microphones are also able to report =
the location of the speaker for purposes of automatically aiming a video =
camera at them.</span><span style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times =
New Roman","serif";color:black'><br><br></span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Concert sound =
systems called line arrays allow technicians control over the amount of =
sound sent to different places. People in the front of the audience can =
have the same loudness as those in the back. By preventing sound from =
reaching the roof and back wall of the performance space, the amount of =
reflected sound heard by the audience is reduced and the listening =
experience is improved.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><br><br></span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>In these systems, =
accuracy in locating or emitting sound is related to differential =
latency through basic trigonometry. In these applications, microseconds =
of differential latency can translate to degrees of uncertainty. =
Accuracy greater than the audio sample period (about 20 microseconds for =
professional 48 kHz sample rate) is generally desired.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>
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From: Ilan Doron <Ilan.Doron@audiocodes.com>
To: "'avt@ietf.org'" <'avt@ietf.org'>, "avt-bounces@ietf.org" <avt-bounces@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [AVTCORE] Requesting redundancy level modification during a call
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Thanks
But I want clarify my requirement, since I am not looking for a solution on=
ly in the specific scenario presented below (though it is relevant...)

Assume I want the remote side to perform some specific changes in the 'out =
media stream'.
How should I send the remote side a request to change its sending propertie=
s?

Should it be RTCP? For example RTCP FB (rfc4585) or some new RTCP packet ty=
pe.
Or maybe use a new RTP profile?

When reviewing the nature of the protocols, where does this requirement fit=
 in?

Ilan Doron

From: avt-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:avt-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Gunna=
r Hellstr?m
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 19:06
To: avt@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Requesting redundancy level modification during a ca=
ll

Ilan,

The decisions on levels to use in RFC 2198 was discussed some years ago whe=
n RFC 4103 Real-time text was created.
It was then considered that the SDP for RFC 2198 shall not be seen as a ful=
l negotiation, but rather a declaration of capability to receive handle RFC=
 2198 and a declaration of the intended initial level of redundancy to be u=
sed if the other party also supports RFC 2198.

>From that initial level, RTCP RR could be observed and judged if there is a=
 need to increase the levels.

The discussion is available in the avt archive from 2004.
Part of it is here:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf-mail-archive/avt/2004-04.mail

Regards

Gunnar
-----------------------------------

Ilan Doron skrev 2011-08-10 16:07:
Hello AVT Group
:) (1st post here...)

Assume a RTP call where rfc2198 redundancy is being used.
During the call I want to request the remote side to modify redundancy leve=
l being used.
Lets say request working with redundancy 2 instead of 1.

What is the preferred method for this?
RTP? RTCP? Other?

10x in advance.

Ilan Doron
System Software - R & D
Tel:         +972-3-9764354
Fax:        +972-3-9764223
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Email:    iland@audiocodes.com<mailto:iland@audiocodes.com>
<mailto:Golan.Buznak@audiocodes.comWeb>Web:       www.audiocodes.com<http:/=
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Ilan Doron
System Software - R & D
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Email:    iland@audiocodes.com<mailto:iland@audiocodes.com>
<mailto:Golan.Buznak@audiocodes.comWeb>Web:       www.audiocodes.com<http:/=
/www.audiocodes.com/>

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thanks</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">But I want clarify my =
requirement, since I am not looking for a solution only in the specific sce=
nario presented below (though it is relevant&#8230;)</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Assume I want the remo=
te side to perform some specific changes in the &#8216;out media stream&#82=
17;.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">How should I send the =
remote side a request to change its sending properties?</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;A=
rial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Should it be RTCP? For ex=
ample RTCP FB (rfc4585) or some new RTCP packet type.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;A=
rial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Or maybe use a new RTP pr=
ofile?</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;A=
rial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;A=
rial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">When reviewing the nature=
 of the protocols, where does this requirement fit in?</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;A=
rial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;A=
rial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Ilan Doron</span><span st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quo=
t;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> avt-bo=
unces@ietf.org [mailto:avt-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Gunnar Hellstr?m<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 10, 2011 19:06<br>
<b>To:</b> avt@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [AVTCORE] Requesting redundancy level modification duri=
ng a call</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ilan,<br>
<br>
The decisions on levels to use in RFC 2198 was discussed some years ago whe=
n RFC 4103 Real-time text was created.<br>
It was then considered that the SDP for RFC 2198 shall not be seen as a ful=
l negotiation, but rather a declaration of capability to receive handle RFC=
 2198 and a declaration of the intended initial level of redundancy to be u=
sed if the other party also supports
 RFC 2198.<br>
<br>
>From that initial level, RTCP RR could be observed and judged if there is a=
 need to increase the levels.<br>
<br>
The discussion is available in the avt archive from 2004.<br>
Part of it is here:<br>
<a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf-mail-archive/avt/2004-04.mail">ftp://ftp=
.ietf.org/ietf-mail-archive/avt/2004-04.mail</a><br>
<br>
Regards<br>
<br>
Gunnar<br>
----------------------------------- <br>
<br>
Ilan Doron skrev 2011-08-10 16:07: </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hello AVT Group</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Wingdings">J</span> (1<su=
p>st</sup> post here&#8230;)</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Assume a RTP call where rfc2198 redundancy is being =
used.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">During the call I want to request the remote side to=
 modify redundancy level being used.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Lets say request working with redundancy 2 instead o=
f 1.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">What is the preferred method for this? </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">RTP? RTCP? Other?</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">10x in advance.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#000042">Ilan Doron</span></b><b=
><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt; font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
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From kevin.gross@comcast.net  Tue Aug 16 10:12:02 2011
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From: "Kevin Gross" <kevin.gross@comcast.net>
To: "'IETF AVTCore WG'" <avt@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Additional use cases	fordraft-brandenburg-avt-rtcp-for-idms
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The requirement for the stereo case is specified differently than the
others. The 10 microsecond figure there applies to _changes in latency_, not
static difference in latency described in all the other cases. Tolerance for
static differences for the stereo case are probably on the order of 1
millisecond. The first-order effect of static latency differences is to move
one of the speakers - just depends on how fussy you are about real vs.
effective speaker placement.

 

The 10 microsecond figure is conservative (I've heard anecdotal claims of 1
microseconds sensitivity) and derives from our ability to accurately locate
sounds based (in part) on comparison of arrival times at each ear. The 10
microsecond figure is not difficult to derive/check. It is also not
difficult to set up a listening test to see what your own threshold is.
Here's a quick reference on it - http://www.cs.ucc.ie/~ianp/CS2511/HAP.html
(see Localisation of Sound Sources section)

 

Throughout, I've tried to use what I consider reasonable and verifiable
requirements figures. Some will always seem to argue that they need better
performance.

 

Kevin

 

From: avt-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:avt-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Allison, Art
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 9:07 AM
To: IETF AVTCore WG
Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Additional use cases
fordraft-brandenburg-avt-rtcp-for-idms

 

Mr. Gross,

The timing assertion for Networked stereo loudspeakers is much tighter that
I would have expected. Placement of stereo speakers within a foot is a
normal rule of thumb for the casual listener - and that  is about 1.1ms
delta at room temperature. The ' golden ears' do have ability to detect
small differences especially with high attack waveforms, but I would like to
see the study that showed this small time difference. Can you please provide
a cite? 

And I wonder if the system requirement should be based on the smallest known
delta, unless there is no implementation complexity added to convey the
suggested resolution. 

 

 

Art Allison 
Senior Director Advanced Engineering, Science and Technology 
National Association of Broadcasters
1771 N Street NW
Washington, DC 20036
Phone  202 429 5418
Fax  202 775 4981 
 <blocked::http://www.nab.org> www.nab.org 
Advocacy  Education  Innovation 

From: avt-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:avt-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kevin
Gross
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 11:48 PM
To: 'IETF AVTCore WG'
Subject: [AVTCORE] Additional use cases
fordraft-brandenburg-avt-rtcp-for-idms

 

In reviewing the IDMS draft I had volunteered to contribute additional use
cases. Ray Brandenberg suggested that I post them here.

 

Kevin Gross

AVA Networks

Networked stereo loudspeakers

Because of our ability to localize sound based on inter-aural time
differences, in a stereo listening situation, we are very sensitive to
changes in latency between the two speakers. These changes are perceived as
a shift in or instability of the "sound stage" during critical listening.
These effects are readily noticeable with shifts of 10 microseconds or
smaller. If the individual speakers in a stereo listening setup operate from
independent network interfaces any changing difference in latency between
the two speakers greater than 10 microseconds will be detrimental to the
listening experience.

Conferencing sound reinforcement system

A conferencing sound reinforcement system is used in commercial and
government installations such as legislative chambers, courtrooms,
boardrooms, classrooms (especially those supporting distance learning) and
other such venues. Each participant using such a system has a microphone and
a speaker. There may also be other speakers to provide reinforcement for
non-speaking participants such as in an audience area or jury box. Each
microphone/speaker pair is individually connected to a network and transmits
digital audio to the other devices through the network and receives digital
audio to be reproduced through the speaker over the network. There may be a
central appliance which receives, prioritizes and mixes the microphone
signals. In some systems an individual mix is created for each speaker such
that a speaker's own voice does not come out from his speaker or from those
immediately surrounding him.

The objective of these systems is to provide enough gain to enhance
intelligibility but not so much that the speaker sounds or feels amplified.
Meeting this objective helps insure that natural person-to-person
communication is retained. To this end, it is desirable that the sound
through the system and from the speakers arrive 5 to 30 milliseconds after
the the sound arriving through the air from the person speaking. Delays in
this range invoke the Haas effect which allows listeners to locate the
person speaking based on the sound arriving through the air while the sound
reinforcement system provides the additional gain required to achieve
desired intelligibility. It is also desirable for the sound to come out of
nearby speakers at within 5 milliseconds as longer differential delays will
be perceived as reverberation or echo.

Video wall

A video wall consists of multiple computer monitors, video projectors, or
television sets tiled together contiguously or overlapped in order to form
one large screen.# Each of the screens reproduces a portion of the larger
picture. In some implementations, each screen may be individually connected
to the network and receive its portion of the overall image from a
network-connected video server or video scaler. Screens are refreshed at 60
hertz (every 16-2/3 milliseconds) or potentially faster. If the refresh is
not synchronized, the effect of multiple screens acting as one is broken.

Phased array transducers

Phased array and wave field synthesis techniques are increasingly used in
audio applications. These techniques work by sending or receiving slightly
different versions of a signal in a spacial sampling arrangement to produce
or record spacial and directional sound fields. The individual transducers
in these applications can be extremely sensitive to differential latency.
Example applications include conferencing microphone systems able to
electronically aim at the person speaking to improve signal to noise ratio.
These microphones are also able to report the location of the speaker for
purposes of automatically aiming a video camera at them.

Concert sound systems called line arrays allow technicians control over the
amount of sound sent to different places. People in the front of the
audience can have the same loudness as those in the back. By preventing
sound from reaching the roof and back wall of the performance space, the
amount of reflected sound heard by the audience is reduced and the listening
experience is improved.

In these systems, accuracy in locating or emitting sound is related to
differential latency through basic trigonometry. In these applications,
microseconds of differential latency can translate to degrees of
uncertainty. Accuracy greater than the audio sample period (about 20
microseconds for professional 48 kHz sample rate) is generally desired.

 


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The requirement for the stereo case is specified =
differently than the others. The 10 microsecond figure there applies to =
_<i>changes in latency</i>_, not static difference in latency described =
in all the other cases. Tolerance for static differences for the stereo =
case are probably on the order of 1 millisecond. The first-order effect =
of static latency differences is to move one of the speakers &#8211; =
just depends on how fussy you are about real vs. effective speaker =
placement.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The 10 microsecond =
figure is conservative (I&#8217;ve heard anecdotal claims of 1 =
microseconds sensitivity) and derives from our ability to accurately =
locate sounds based (in part) on comparison of arrival times at each =
ear. The 10 microsecond figure is not difficult to derive/check. It is =
also not difficult to set up a listening test to see what your own =
threshold is. Here&#8217;s a quick reference on it - </span><a =
href=3D"http://www.cs.ucc.ie/~ianp/CS2511/HAP.html">http://www.cs.ucc.ie/=
~ianp/CS2511/HAP.html</a> (see Localisation of Sound Sources =
section)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Throughout, I&#8217;ve tried to use what I consider =
reasonable and verifiable requirements figures. Some will always seem to =
argue that they need better performance.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Kevin<span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
avt-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:avt-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>Allison, Art<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 16, 2011 9:07 =
AM<br><b>To:</b> IETF AVTCore WG<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [AVTCORE] =
Additional use cases =
fordraft-brandenburg-avt-rtcp-for-idms<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Mr. Gross,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The timing assertion for =
Networked stereo loudspeakers is much tighter that I would have =
expected. Placement of stereo speakers within a foot is a normal rule of =
thumb for the casual listener &#8211; and that &nbsp;is about 1.1ms =
delta at room temperature. The &#8216; golden ears&#8217; do have =
ability to detect small differences especially with high attack =
waveforms, but I would like to see the study that showed this small time =
difference. Can you please provide a cite? <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>And I wonder if the =
system requirement should be based on the smallest known delta, unless =
there is no implementation complexity added to convey the suggested =
resolution. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>Art Allison</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'> <br></span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>Senior Director Advanced Engineering, Science and =
Technology</span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'> <br></span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>National Association of Broadcasters<br>1771 N Street NW<br>Washington, =
DC 20036<br>Phone&nbsp; 202 429 5418<br>Fax&nbsp; 202 775 =
4981</span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'> <br><a =
href=3D"blocked::http://www.nab.org"><b><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>www.nab.org</span></b></a> =
<br></span><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#FF8000'=
>Advocacy &nbsp;Education&nbsp; Innovation</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
<a href=3D"mailto:avt-bounces@ietf.org">avt-bounces@ietf.org</a> <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:avt-bounces@ietf.org]">[mailto:avt-bounces@ietf.or=
g]</a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Kevin Gross<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, August =
15, 2011 11:48 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'IETF AVTCore WG'<br><b>Subject:</b> =
[AVTCORE] Additional use cases =
fordraft-brandenburg-avt-rtcp-for-idms<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>In =
reviewing the IDMS draft I had volunteered to contribute additional use =
cases. Ray Brandenberg suggested that I post them here.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Kevin =
Gross<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>AVA Networks<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>N=
etworked stereo loudspeakers</span></b><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Because of our =
ability to localize sound based on inter-aural time differences, in a =
stereo listening situation, we are very sensitive to changes in latency =
between the two speakers. These changes are perceived as a shift in or =
instability of the &#8220;sound stage&#8221; during critical listening. =
These effects are readily noticeable with shifts of 10 microseconds or =
smaller. If the individual speakers in a stereo listening setup operate =
from independent network interfaces any changing difference in latency =
between the two speakers greater than 10 microseconds will be =
detrimental to the listening experience.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>C=
onferencing sound reinforcement system</span></b><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>A conferencing =
sound reinforcement system is used in commercial and government =
installations such as legislative chambers, courtrooms, boardrooms, =
classrooms (especially those supporting distance learning) and other =
such venues. Each participant using such a system has a microphone and a =
speaker. There may also be other speakers to provide reinforcement for =
non-speaking participants such as in an audience area or jury box. Each =
microphone/speaker pair is individually connected to a network and =
transmits digital audio to the other devices through the network and =
receives digital audio to be reproduced through the speaker over the =
network. There may be a central appliance which receives, prioritizes =
and mixes the microphone signals. In some systems an individual mix is =
created for each speaker such that a speaker&#8217;s own voice does not =
come out from his speaker or from those immediately surrounding =
him.</span><span style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><br><br></span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>The objective of =
these systems is to provide enough gain to enhance intelligibility but =
not so much that the speaker sounds or feels amplified. Meeting this =
objective helps insure that natural person-to-person communication is =
retained. To this end, it is desirable that the sound through the system =
and from the speakers arrive 5 to 30 milliseconds after the the sound =
arriving through the air from the person speaking. Delays in this range =
invoke the Haas effect which allows listeners to locate the person =
speaking based on the sound arriving through the air while the sound =
reinforcement system provides the additional gain required to achieve =
desired intelligibility. It is also desirable for the sound to come out =
of nearby speakers at within 5 milliseconds as longer differential =
delays will be perceived as reverberation or echo.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>V=
ideo wall</span></b><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>A video wall =
consists of multiple computer monitors, video projectors, or television =
sets tiled together contiguously or overlapped in order to form one =
large screen.# Each of the screens reproduces a portion of the larger =
picture. In some implementations, each screen may be individually =
connected to the network and receive its portion of the overall image =
from a network-connected video server or video scaler. Screens are =
refreshed at 60 hertz (every 16-2/3 milliseconds) or potentially faster. =
If the refresh is not synchronized, the effect of multiple screens =
acting as one is broken.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>P=
hased array transducers</span></b><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Phased array and =
wave field synthesis techniques are increasingly used in audio =
applications. These techniques work by sending or receiving slightly =
different versions of a signal in a spacial sampling arrangement to =
produce or record spacial and directional sound fields. The individual =
transducers in these applications can be extremely sensitive to =
differential latency. Example applications include conferencing =
microphone systems able to electronically aim at the person speaking to =
improve signal to noise ratio. These microphones are also able to report =
the location of the speaker for purposes of automatically aiming a video =
camera at them.</span><span style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times =
New Roman","serif";color:black'><br><br></span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Concert sound =
systems called line arrays allow technicians control over the amount of =
sound sent to different places. People in the front of the audience can =
have the same loudness as those in the back. By preventing sound from =
reaching the roof and back wall of the performance space, the amount of =
reflected sound heard by the audience is reduced and the listening =
experience is improved.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><br><br></span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>In these systems, =
accuracy in locating or emitting sound is related to differential =
latency through basic trigonometry. In these applications, microseconds =
of differential latency can translate to degrees of uncertainty. =
Accuracy greater than the audio sample period (about 20 microseconds for =
professional 48 kHz sample rate) is generally desired.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_0063_01CC5C05.6814FEA0--


From harald@alvestrand.no  Wed Aug 17 03:02:27 2011
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From: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
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Subject: [AVTCORE] Review request: I-D Action: draft-alvestrand-one-rtp-01.txt
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After discussions in Quebec City, I tried to summarize results of those 
discussions into an actionable document. I may have succeeded or failed 
at this.

I have asked the MMUSIC mailing list to review the document (being 
unsure whether it belonged in MMUSIC or in AVTCORE) after an initial 
review in RTCWEB. For participants in both MMUSIC and AVTCORE, it may be 
better to discuss in MMUSIC only.

All comments, feedback and suggestions for process welcome!

                 Harald

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	I-D Action: draft-alvestrand-one-rtp-01.txt
Date: 	Wed, 17 Aug 2011 01:48:18 -0700
From: 	internet-drafts@ietf.org
Reply-To: 	internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: 	i-d-announce@ietf.org



A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.

	Title           : SDP Grouping for Single RTP Sessions
	Author(s)       : Harald Tveit Alvestrand
	Filename        : draft-alvestrand-one-rtp-01.txt
	Pages           : 12
	Date            : 2011-08-17

    This document describes an extension to the Session Description
    Protocol (SDP) to describe RTP sessions where media of multiple top
    level types, for example audio and video, are carried in the same RTP
    session.

    This document is presented to the RTCWEB, AVTCORE and MMUSIC WGs for
    consideration.



A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-alvestrand-one-rtp-01.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-alvestrand-one-rtp-01.txt
_______________________________________________
I-D-Announce mailing list
I-D-Announce@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt



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    After discussions in Quebec City, I tried to summarize results of
    those discussions into an actionable document. I may have succeeded
    or failed at this.<br>
    <br>
    I have asked the MMUSIC mailing list to review the document (being
    unsure whether it belonged in MMUSIC or in AVTCORE) after an initial
    review in RTCWEB. For participants in both MMUSIC and AVTCORE, it
    may be better to discuss in MMUSIC only.<br>
    <br>
    All comments, feedback and suggestions for process welcome!<br>
    <br>
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Harald<br>
    <br>
    -------- Original Message --------
    <table class="moz-email-headers-table" border="0" cellpadding="0"
      cellspacing="0">
      <tbody>
        <tr>
          <th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">Subject: </th>
          <td>I-D Action: draft-alvestrand-one-rtp-01.txt</td>
        </tr>
        <tr>
          <th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">Date: </th>
          <td>Wed, 17 Aug 2011 01:48:18 -0700</td>
        </tr>
        <tr>
          <th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">From: </th>
          <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a></td>
        </tr>
        <tr>
          <th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">Reply-To:
          </th>
          <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a></td>
        </tr>
        <tr>
          <th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">To: </th>
          <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org">i-d-announce@ietf.org</a></td>
        </tr>
      </tbody>
    </table>
    <br>
    <br>
    <pre>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.

	Title           : SDP Grouping for Single RTP Sessions
	Author(s)       : Harald Tveit Alvestrand
	Filename        : draft-alvestrand-one-rtp-01.txt
	Pages           : 12
	Date            : 2011-08-17

   This document describes an extension to the Session Description
   Protocol (SDP) to describe RTP sessions where media of multiple top
   level types, for example audio and video, are carried in the same RTP
   session.

   This document is presented to the RTCWEB, AVTCORE and MMUSIC WGs for
   consideration.



A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-alvestrand-one-rtp-01.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-alvestrand-one-rtp-01.txt</a>

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/</a>

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-alvestrand-one-rtp-01.txt">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-alvestrand-one-rtp-01.txt</a>
_______________________________________________
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<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce</a>
Internet-Draft directories: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html">http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html</a>
or <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt</a>

</pre>
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From kevin.gross@avanw.com  Tue Aug 16 18:18:37 2011
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Subject: [AVTCORE] Additional use cases for draft-brandenburg-avt-rtcp-for-idms
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In reviewing the IDMS draft I had volunteered to contribute additional use
cases. I forwarded these to Ray who suggested that I also post them here.

 

Kevin Gross

AVA Networks

Networked stereo loudspeakers

Because of our ability to localize sound based on inter-aural time
differences, in a stereo listening situation, we are very sensitive to
changes in latency between the two speakers. These changes are perceived as
a shift in or instability of the "sound stage" during critical listening.
These effects are readily noticeable with shifts of 10 microseconds or
smaller. If the individual speakers in a stereo listening setup operate from
independent network interfaces any changing difference in latency between
the two speakers greater than 10 microseconds will be detrimental to the
listening experience.

Conferencing sound reinforcement system

A conferencing sound reinforcement system is used in commercial and
government installations such as legislative chambers, courtrooms,
boardrooms, classrooms (especially those supporting distance learning) and
other such venues. Each participant using such a system has a microphone and
a speaker. There may also be other speakers to provide reinforcement for
non-speaking participants such as in an audience area or jury box. Each
microphone/speaker pair is individually connected to a network and transmits
digital audio to the other devices through the network and receives digital
audio to be reproduced through the speaker over the network. There may be a
central appliance which receives, prioritizes and mixes the microphone
signals. In some systems an individual mix is created for each speaker such
that a speaker's own voice does not come out from his speaker or from those
immediately surrounding him.

The objective of these systems is to provide enough gain to enhance
intelligibility but not so much that the speaker sounds or feels amplified.
Meeting this objective helps insure that natural person-to-person
communication is retained. To this end, it is desirable that the sound
through the system and from the speakers arrive 5 to 30 milliseconds after
the the sound arriving through the air from the person speaking. Delays in
this range invoke the Haas effect which allows listeners to locate the
person speaking based on the sound arriving through the air while the sound
reinforcement system provides the additional gain required to achieve
desired intelligibility. It is also desirable for the sound to come out of
nearby speakers at within 5 milliseconds as longer differential delays will
be perceived as reverberation or echo.

Video wall

A video wall consists of multiple computer monitors, video projectors, or
television sets tiled together contiguously or overlapped in order to form
one large screen.# Each of the screens reproduces a portion of the larger
picture. In some implementations, each screen may be individually connected
to the network and receive its portion of the overall image from a
network-connected video server or video scaler. Screens are refreshed at 60
hertz (every 16-2/3 milliseconds) or potentially faster. If the refresh is
not synchronized, the effect of multiple screens acting as one is broken.

Phased array transducers

Phased array and wave field synthesis techniques are increasingly used in
audio applications. These techniques work by sending or receiving slightly
different versions of a signal in a spacial sampling arrangement to produce
or record spacial and directional sound fields. The individual transducers
in these applications can be extremely sensitive to differential latency.
Example applications include conferencing microphone systems able to
electronically aim at the person speaking to improve signal to noise ratio.
These microphones are also able to report the location of the speaker for
purposes of automatically aiming a video camera at them.

Concert sound systems called line arrays allow technicians control over the
amount of sound sent to different places. People in the front of the
audience can have the same loudness as those in the back. By preventing
sound from reaching the roof and back wall of the performance space, the
amount of reflected sound heard by the audience is reduced and the listening
experience is improved.

In these systems, accuracy in locating or emitting sound is related to
differential latency through basic trigonometry. In these applications,
microseconds of differential latency can translate to degrees of
uncertainty. Accuracy greater than the audio sample period (about 20
microseconds for professional 48 kHz sample rate) is generally desired.

 


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>In =
reviewing the IDMS draft I had volunteered to contribute additional use =
cases. I forwarded these to Ray who suggested that I also post them =
here.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Kevin Gross<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>AVA =
Networks<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>N=
etworked stereo loudspeakers</span></b><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Because of our =
ability to localize sound based on inter-aural time differences, in a =
stereo listening situation, we are very sensitive to changes in latency =
between the two speakers. These changes are perceived as a shift in or =
instability of the &#8220;sound stage&#8221; during critical listening. =
These effects are readily noticeable with shifts of 10 microseconds or =
smaller. If the individual speakers in a stereo listening setup operate =
from independent network interfaces any changing difference in latency =
between the two speakers greater than 10 microseconds will be =
detrimental to the listening experience.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>C=
onferencing sound reinforcement system</span></b><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>A conferencing =
sound reinforcement system is used in commercial and government =
installations such as legislative chambers, courtrooms, boardrooms, =
classrooms (especially those supporting distance learning) and other =
such venues. Each participant using such a system has a microphone and a =
speaker. There may also be other speakers to provide reinforcement for =
non-speaking participants such as in an audience area or jury box. Each =
microphone/speaker pair is individually connected to a network and =
transmits digital audio to the other devices through the network and =
receives digital audio to be reproduced through the speaker over the =
network. There may be a central appliance which receives, prioritizes =
and mixes the microphone signals. In some systems an individual mix is =
created for each speaker such that a speaker&#8217;s own voice does not =
come out from his speaker or from those immediately surrounding =
him.</span><span style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><br><br></span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>The objective of =
these systems is to provide enough gain to enhance intelligibility but =
not so much that the speaker sounds or feels amplified. Meeting this =
objective helps insure that natural person-to-person communication is =
retained. To this end, it is desirable that the sound through the system =
and from the speakers arrive 5 to 30 milliseconds after the the sound =
arriving through the air from the person speaking. Delays in this range =
invoke the Haas effect which allows listeners to locate the person =
speaking based on the sound arriving through the air while the sound =
reinforcement system provides the additional gain required to achieve =
desired intelligibility. It is also desirable for the sound to come out =
of nearby speakers at within 5 milliseconds as longer differential =
delays will be perceived as reverberation or echo.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>V=
ideo wall</span></b><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>A video wall =
consists of multiple computer monitors, video projectors, or television =
sets tiled together contiguously or overlapped in order to form one =
large screen.# Each of the screens reproduces a portion of the larger =
picture. In some implementations, each screen may be individually =
connected to the network and receive its portion of the overall image =
from a network-connected video server or video scaler. Screens are =
refreshed at 60 hertz (every 16-2/3 milliseconds) or potentially faster. =
If the refresh is not synchronized, the effect of multiple screens =
acting as one is broken.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>P=
hased array transducers</span></b><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Phased array and =
wave field synthesis techniques are increasingly used in audio =
applications. These techniques work by sending or receiving slightly =
different versions of a signal in a spacial sampling arrangement to =
produce or record spacial and directional sound fields. The individual =
transducers in these applications can be extremely sensitive to =
differential latency. Example applications include conferencing =
microphone systems able to electronically aim at the person speaking to =
improve signal to noise ratio. These microphones are also able to report =
the location of the speaker for purposes of automatically aiming a video =
camera at them.</span><span style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times =
New Roman","serif";color:black'><br><br></span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Concert sound =
systems called line arrays allow technicians control over the amount of =
sound sent to different places. People in the front of the audience can =
have the same loudness as those in the back. By preventing sound from =
reaching the roof and back wall of the performance space, the amount of =
reflected sound heard by the audience is reduced and the listening =
experience is improved.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><br><br></span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>In these systems, =
accuracy in locating or emitting sound is related to differential =
latency through basic trigonometry. In these applications, microseconds =
of differential latency can translate to degrees of uncertainty. =
Accuracy greater than the audio sample period (about 20 microseconds for =
professional 48 kHz sample rate) is generally desired.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_036D_01CC5B77.DDA3D800--


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INVITATION:

=================
Please consider to contribute to and/or forward to the appropriate
groups the following opportunity to submit and publish original
scientific results to ACHI 2012.
The submission deadline is set to September 5, 2011.
In addition, authors of selected papers will be invited to submit
extended article versions to one of the IARIA Journals:
http://www.iariajournals.org
=================


============== ACHI 2012 | Call for Papers ===============

CALL FOR PAPERS, TUTORIALS, PANELS

ACHI 2012: The Fifth International Conference on Advances in
Computer-Human Interactions

January 30 - February 4, 2012 - Valencia, Spain

General page: http://www.iaria.org/conferences2012/ACHI12.html

Call for Papers: http://www.iaria.org/conferences2012/CfPACHI12.html

- regular papers
- short papers (work in progress)
- posters
-ideas

Submission page: http://www.iaria.org/conferences2011/SubmitACHI12.html

Submission deadline: September 5, 2011

Sponsored by IARIA, www.iaria.org


Extended versions of selected papers will be published in IARIA
Journals: http://www.iariajournals.org

Please note the Poster Forum and Work in Progress options.

The topics suggested by the conference can be discussed in term of
concepts, state of the art, research, standards, implementations,
running experiments, applications, and industrial case studies. Authors
are invited to submit complete unpublished papers, which are not under
review in any other conference or journal in the following, but not
limited to, topic areas.

All tracks are open to both research and industry contributions, in
terms of Regular papers, Posters, Work in progress,
Technical/marketing/business presentations, Demos, Tutorials, and Panels.

Before submission, please check and conform with the Editorial rules:
http://www.iaria.org/editorialrules.html

ACHI 2012 Topics (topics and submission details: see CfP on the site)

INTER: Interfaces
Graphical user interfaces; Intelligent user interfaces; Adaptive user
interfaces; Multi-modal user interfaces; Context-based interfaces;
Virtual reality and 3D interfaces; Speech and natural language
interfaces; Interfaces for collaborative systems; Interfaces for
restricted environments; Internationalization and reflections of culture
on interface design; Interfaces for disadvantaged users; Interface
specification and design; Interface prototyping; Interface testing;
Interface evaluation; Interface generators and other tools for
developing interfaces; Data visualization; Visualization techniques;
Interactive visualization

OUI: Organic user interfaces
Interface-oriented materials and devices; Physical and digital
representation; Sensing and display technologies; Rollable and foldable
displays with tactile properties; Skin-based input; Analog input
interaction design; Flexible display technologies; Functional-based
display forms; Flexible-computing and curve computer interactions; 3D
continuous display interfaces

HAPTIC: Haptic interfaces
Fundamental of haptic interactions; Tangible user interfaces;
Bidirectional information flow ; Haptography; Haptic feedback and
control; Bodyware (embedded sensors; flexible structures, associative
memories, actuation and power systems); Magnetic levitation haptic
interfaces; Kinetic motion-based interaction; Kinetic motion and haptic
design; Mindware (learning, adaptation, head-hand coordination, bimanual
coordination; discovering affordance, interaction and imitation);
Language of motion / Gesture annotation; Interfaces with kinetic
properties; Sensor actuator design, development and evaluation; Linear
haptic display; Fingertip haptic display; Pen based force display; High
bandwidth force display; Quality of experience model for haptic
interactions; Haptics rendering;

SYSTEMS: Interactive systems
Highly interactive systems; Intelligent agents and systems; Adaptive
systems; Context-aware systems; Multi-user multi-interface systems;
Collaborative systems; Computer-supported cooperative work; Distributed
information spaces; Communicators and advisory systems; Interaction
through wireless communication networks

DEVICES: Interaction devices
General input and output devices; Virtual reality input and output
devices; Interaction devices for immersive environments; Shareable
devices and services; Mobile devices and services; Pervasive devices and
services; Small displays; Very large displays; Tangible user interfaces;
Wearable computing; Interaction devices for disadvantaged users;
Interaction devices for computer games

DESIGN & EVAL: Interaction & interface design & evaluation
Interface metaphors; Interaction styles; Interaction paradigms;
Requirements specification methods and tools; Analysis methods and
tools; Design methods and tools; Evaluation paradigms; Evaluation
methods and tools; Evaluation frameworks; Scenarios; Task analysis;
Conceptual design; Physical design; Information architecture;
Information design for websites; Guidelines and heuristics; Experience
design; Environmental design; Ethnography; Contextual design; Service
design;

MODELS: Principles, theories, and models
Cognitive models; Conceptual models; Mental models; Frameworks for
cognition; Model-based design of interactive systems; Formal methods in
human-computer interaction

USER: User modeling and user focus
Usability and user experience goals; User testing; User modeling; User
profiling; Predictive models (e.g., for user delay prediction); Human
perceptible thresholds; User support systems; Psychological foundations
for designing interactive system; Human information processing; Digital
human modeling; Engineering psychology; Ergonomics; Hearing and haptics;
Affective computing

PARADIGMS: Traditional and emerging paradigms
Interaction paradigms; Mobile computing; Wearable computing;
Location-aware computing; Context-aware computing; Ubiquitous computing;
Pervasive computing; Transparent computing; Attentive environments;
Virtual reality; Augmented reality and tangible bits; Immersive
environments; Human-based computation; Visual languages and
environments; End-user programming; Hypermedia advances and
applications; New visions of human-computer interaction

ACCESS: Usability and universal accessibility
Interaction and interface design for people with disabilities;
Interaction and interface design for the young and the elderly;
Universal access and usability; Usability engineering; Usability testing
and evaluation; Usability and internationalization

HUM-ROBOTS: Human-robot interaction
Fundamentals of human-robot cooperation; Cognitive models of human-robot
interaction; Adaptable autonomy and knowledge exchange; Autonomy and
trust; Awareness and monitoring of humans; Task allocation and
coordination; Human guided robot learning; User evaluations of robot
performance; Metrics for human-robot interaction; Long-term interaction
robotics; Health and personal care robotics; Social Robotics;
Multi-modal human-robot communication; Robot intermediaries; Experiments
and applications

HUM- AGENTS: Agents and human interaction
Principles of agent-to-human interaction; Models for human-agent
interaction; Social persuasion in human-agent interaction; Designing for
human-agent interaction; Socially intelligent agents and the human in
the loop; Agents for human-human interaction; Agent-based
human-computer-interaction; Human cooperation and agent-based
interaction; Human interaction with autonomous agents Agent-based
human-robot interaction; Human and artificial agents emotional interaction

SOCIAL: Social aspects of human-computer interaction
Societal implications of human-computer interactions; Social computing
and software Online communities Weblogs and other community building
tools Online support for discovery and creativity; Tool support for
discovery and innovation Expressive and attentive interfaces and
environments Affective aspects of human-computer interaction Emotional
design

GAMES: Computer games and gaming
Computer game technology; Computer game engineering; Foundations of
computer game design and development; Development processes and
supporting tools; Management aspects of computer game development;
Architectures and frameworks for computer games; Game-based training and
simulation; Serious games; Multi-user games; Online games; Online
gaming; Game theories; Audio, video and text in digital games; New
computer games and case studies; Performance improvements in computer
games; Social impact of games and gaming

EDUCATION: Human-computer interaction in education and training
Interactive systems for education and training; Online and
communications support for education and training; Interfaces,
interactions and systems for distance education; Software tools for
courseware development and delivery; Collaborative systems for teaching,
studying and learning; Handheld mobile devices for education and
training; Advisory and recommendation systems Techniques and tools for
information localization, retrieval & storage; Web annotation systems;
Case studies and applications

MED APPS: Applications in medicine
Interactive systems for medical applications; Interactive systems for
telemedicine; Interactive systems for telehealth; Interactive systems
for telepathology; Interactive systems for telecardiology; Interactive
systems for telesurgery; Interactive personal medical devices; Digital
imagery and visualization frameworks; Role of colors and color imaging
in medicine; Multidimensional projections with application to medicine;
Data mining and image retrieval techniques for medical applications;
Imaging interfaces and navigation; Internet imaging localization,
retrieval and archiving; Video techniques for medical images; Internet
support for remote medicine; Computer-controlled communications for
medical applications; Medical informatics; Software and devices for
patient monitoring; Interactive software for therapy and recovery

TELECONF: Teleconferencing
Fundamentals for teleconferencing; Platforms for teleconferencing;
Devices for teleconferencing; Videoconferencing, Web Conferencing;
Performance in teleconference applications; Real-time aspects in
teleconferencing; Privacy and security in teleconference applications;
QoS/SLA for teleconferencing applications; Teleconferencing services;
Business models for teleconferencing

APPLICATIONS: Other domain applications
Interactive interfaces and systems for scientific applications;
Interactive interfaces and systems for engineering applications;
Interactive interfaces and systems for business applications;
Interactive interfaces and systems for activities in arts & humanities;
Interactive interfaces and systems for scientific research; Other
applications of interactive interfaces and systems

Committee:
http://www.iaria.org/conferences2012/ComACHI12.html
====================

From miguel.a.garcia@ericsson.com  Thu Aug 18 06:20:14 2011
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From: "Miguel A. Garcia" <Miguel.A.Garcia@ericsson.com>
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Subject: [AVTCORE] SDP comments on draft-signh-avtcore-mprtp-02: Scope of the document
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I have a general comment on the scope of the 
draft-signh-avtcore-mprtp-02. I think the document needs to provide a 
neat cut on scope.

At the moment I think that the intention of the authors is to include RTP 
and SDP as part of the scope, and presumably ICE. Fair enough.

Then, it is not acceptable to find normative statements outside the scope 
of the document, for example, those pertaining to SIP and RTSP, or even 
legacy implementations. Let me provide you examples:

- Section 4.1

    Session signaling (e.g., SIP [14], RTSP [15]) SHOULD be done over a
    failover-capable or multipath-capable transport for e.g., SCTP [10]
    or MPTCP [11] instead of TCP or UDP.

Comment: The scope of the document should not consider SIP, RTSP, and 
whether it is used over a failover-capable or multipath-capable 
transport. This could be described in other drafts, and actually RFC 4168 
already describes how to use SIP over SCTP.

- Section 6, 5th bullet point:

                                                    [Open Issue: What
        happens if the interface that setup the session disappears? does
        the control channel also failover? re-start the session?]

Same comment, not in the scope of the draft.

- Section 7.5

    [Note: If the original interface that setup the session disappears
    then does the session signaling failover to another interface?  Can
    we recommend that SIP/RTSP be run over MPTCP, SCTP].

- Section 11.2:

    To signal the use of MPRTP header extensions in SDP, the following
    URI MUST be used: urn:ietf:params:rtp-hdrext:mprtp.  Legacy RTP (non-
    MPRTP) clients MUST ignore this header extension, but continue to
    parse and decode the packet.

Comment: The second sentence puts a requirement ("MUST ignore") to legacy 
clients. How do you intend legacy clients to implement a requirement 
which has been written in the future (your document was written after the 
legacy client was put into operation). You can say that "it is expected 
that legacy RTP clients will ignore this header extension ....", but it 
is merely an expectation, not a requirement.


- Section 11.3, 1st bullet point:

   1.   Advertising ICE candidates: in the initial INVITE the endpoints
        exchange candidates, as defined in ICE [3].

Comment: replace "INVITE" "SDP offer", and then you are back within the 
scope of the document.

/Miguel


-- 
Miguel A. Garcia
+34-91-339-3608
Ericsson Spain

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Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 12:06:29 +0200
From: "Miguel A. Garcia" <Miguel.A.Garcia@ericsson.com>
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Subject: [AVTCORE] Comments to draft-singh-avtcore-mprtp-02: A bunch of comments
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Here is a bunch of comments to the MPRTP draft.

- In several sections (take for example the second paragraph in the 
Introduction), the text talks of packets that are "transmitted over 
different paths". I think we need to differentiate the use case that you 
are considering from the use case when two packets with the same origin 
and end travel through different paths in the network, due to, e.g., 
congestion of intermediate routers. So, I guess you need to clarify that 
you are not addressing that use case, but instead, one where at least one 
of the endpoints has multiple interfaces at its disposal. Furthermore, 
these multiple interfaces at an endpoint should also have different IP 
addresses among them.

- In the third paragraph of the introduction you mention that SCTP, MPTCP 
and SHIM6 are not suitable for realtime communications. I wouldn't dare 
to write such statement, perhaps you don't want to hurt someone else's 
sensitivity.

- Section 1.2 reads:

Endpoint: host either initiating or terminating an RTP connection.

I don't know what is an RTP "connection". Perhaps "flow", or "session".

- Section 1.3 reads:

    o  Load balancing: Transmitting one RTP stream over multiple paths
       can reduce the bandwidth usage, compared to transmitting the same
       stream along a single path.  This reduces the impact on other
       traffic.

Question: why is it so that transmitting the same flow over several paths 
reduces the bandwidth usage? I guess that the aggregated bandwidth 
wouldn't change when you use several paths.

- Section 7.1. When you mention "RTP/RTCP header extension" you should 
add a reference to where such extension is defined, I guess Sections 9.1 
and 9.2 in your same draft. The same applies to the second paragraph in 
Section 7 .2

- Confusing text in Section 8:

    To enable a quick start of a multimedia session, a multipath session
    MUST be upgraded from a single path session.

The text gives me the impression that something will break if one does 
not upgrade to a multipath from a single path session. The problem is how 
the "MUST" is interpreted. I guess what you want to say is:

    If an endpoint wants to enable a quick start of a multimedia session, 
it will first start a single path session and will then upgrade it to a 
multipath session.

- Section 8.1.3, first paragraph, reads:

    The sender MAY open any number of subflows from the set of candidate
    subflows after performing connectivity checks.

What is "open"? Do we open flows? In particular, I don't know if you are 
referring to "publish the SDP", "is ready to receive RTP", or "starts 
sending RTP". Please clarify it.

- Section 9.1, third paragraph reads:

    To signal the use of the above RTP header extensions in SDP, the
    following URI MUST be used: urn:ietf:params:rtp-hdrext:mprtp.

I believe the above text is written in the wrong section. Section 9.1 is 
about the RTP header extension for MPRTP, not about SDP. Additionally, 
you have the same sentences correctly included in the SDP section, 
therefore, you can safely delete the above misplaced paragraph in 9.1.

- Section 9.3.1 reads:

       Address: 4 octets (IPv4), 16 octets (IPv6), or n octets (DNS name)

          The address to which receivers send feedback reports.  For IPv4
          and IPv6, fixed-length address fields are used.  A DNS name is
          an arbitrary-length string.  The string MAY contain
          Internationalizing Domain Names in Applications (IDNA) domain
          names and MUST be UTF-8 [8] encoded.

I don't know how IPv4 and IPv6 addresses are encoded. One could use its 
binary representation per octet, or its UTF-8 encoding of the string 
(e.g., including the dots, colons, etc.). Please clearly specify how this 
is done.

- Section 11.2 has normative text to use ("MUST use") a URN. But without 
normatively specifying how to use, e.g., in which line, attribute, to 
include it, the normative strength is useless.

- Section 11.3.1 says:

  <unicast-address>: is taken from RFC5245 [3].

This is not true. RFC 5245 does not define unicast-address. RFC 5245 
reuses <connection-address> from RFC 4566, which also includes 
multicast-address. I guess you need to point to RFC 4566, which is the 
canonical source of unicast-address for this purpose.

/Miguel


-- 
Miguel A. Garcia
+34-91-339-3608
Ericsson Spain

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Subject: [AVTCORE] RFC 6354 on Forward-Shifted RTP Redundancy Payload Support
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A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.

        
        RFC 6354

        Title:      Forward-Shifted RTP Redundancy Payload Support 
        Author:     Q. Xie
        Status:     Standards Track
        Stream:     IETF
        Date:       August 2011
        Mailbox:    Qiaobing.Xie@gmail.com
        Pages:      13
        Characters: 26488
        Updates:    RFC2198, RFC4102

        I-D Tag:    draft-ietf-avt-forward-shifted-red-08.txt

        URL:        http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6354.txt

This document defines a simple enhancement to support RTP sessions
with forward-shifted redundant encodings, i.e., redundant data sent
before the corresponding primary data.  Forward-shifted redundancy
can be used to conceal losses of a large number of consecutive media
frames (e.g., consecutive loss of seconds or even tens of seconds of
media).  [STANDARDS-TRACK]

This document is a product of the Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance Working Group of the IETF.

This is now a Proposed Standard Protocol.

STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track
protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and suggestions
for improvements.  Please refer to the current edition of the Internet
Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization state and
status of this protocol.  Distribution of this memo is unlimited.

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HI
My posts aren't being posted?
Why does this happen?
What can I do?

Ilan Doron
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">HI</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">My posts aren&#8217;t being posted?</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Why does this happen?</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">What can I do?</p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt; font-family:&quot=
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From adam@nostrum.com  Mon Aug 29 09:15:44 2011
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Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Hi from Ilan
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You're apparently attaching two images to every email you send out. My 
guess is that most of what you send is being discarded as being too 
large for the mailing list.

/a

On 8/29/11 11:10 AM, Ilan Doron wrote:
>
> HI
>
> My posts aren't being posted?
>
> Why does this happen?
>
> What can I do?
>
> *Ilan Doron**
> *System Software - R & D
>
> *Tel*:         +972-3-9764354
> *Fax*:        +972-3-9764223
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<html>
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      http-equiv="Content-Type">
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  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    You're apparently attaching two images to every email you send out.
    My guess is that most of what you send is being discarded as being
    too large for the mailing list.<br>
    <br>
    /a<br>
    <br>
    On 8/29/11 11:10 AM, Ilan Doron wrote:
    <blockquote
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        <p class="MsoNormal">HI</p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">My posts aren&#8217;t being posted?</p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Why does this happen?</p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">What can I do?</p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;
              font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
              color:#000042">Ilan Doron</span></b><b><span
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            </span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;
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            color:#000042">:</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;
            font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

            +972-3-9764354<br>
            <b><span style="color:#000042">Fax</span></b><span
              style="color:#000042">:</span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +972-3-9764223</span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;
              font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
              color:#000042" lang="FR">Mobi</span></b><b><span
              style="font-size:9.0pt;
              font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
              color:#1F497D" lang="FR">l</span></b><b><span
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              color:#000042" lang="FR">e</span></b><span
            style="font-size:9.0pt;
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            lang="FR">: &nbsp;&nbsp;+972-54</span><span dir="RTL"></span><span
            dir="RTL" style="font-size:9.0pt;
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      type="cite">
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        <p class="MsoNormal" style=""><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
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From tom111.taylor@bell.net  Mon Aug 29 15:47:34 2011
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Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 18:49:04 -0400
From: Tom Taylor <tom111.taylor@bell.net>
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To: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>
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Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Hi from Ilan
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That can't be it. Ilan's mail generally doesn't show up as 
administrative requests. The one exception was caught by "Message has 
implicit destination", which probably means he bcc'd someone.

Ilan, what was different about the message you just sent compared with 
others that didn't get through?

Tom Taylor

On 29/08/2011 12:17 PM, Adam Roach wrote:
> You're apparently attaching two images to every email you send out. My
> guess is that most of what you send is being discarded as being too
> large for the mailing list.
>
> /a
>
> On 8/29/11 11:10 AM, Ilan Doron wrote:
>>
>> HI
>>
>> My posts aren't being posted?
>>
>> Why does this happen?
>>
>> What can I do?
>>
>> *Ilan Doron**
>> *System Software - R & D
>>
>> *Tel*: +972-3-9764354
>> *Fax*: +972-3-9764223
>>
>> *Mobi**l**e*: +972-54-6262-775
>> *Email*: iland@audiocodes.com <mailto:iland@audiocodes.com>
>> <mailto:Golan.Buznak@audiocodes.comWeb>*Web*:www.audiocodes.com
>> <http://www.audiocodes.com/>
>>
>> <image removed>
>> <http://www.audiocodes.com/solutions/hdvoip>
>>
>> _Click to Sign Up for our email updates
>> <http://www.mymarketing.co.il/Subscribe.htm?_u=f3j2a8>_
>>
>> *<image removed>
>>
>> *
>>
>> *Somewhere there is a tree thanking you for cutting back on printing...*
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential
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>> is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.
>>
>> If you have received this email in error please immediately notify the
>> sender and delete or destroy any copy of this message
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance
>> avt@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance
> avt@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt

From olivier.crete@collabora.com  Tue Aug 30 13:59:00 2011
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To: "avt@ietf.org" <avt@ietf.org>
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Hi,

Can the SSRC in the FIR message defined in RFC 5104 be different from
the Media SSRC in the rtcp fb header that's just before it? I'm curious
as to why it's duplicated in there? Or did I miss something ?

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olivier.crete@collabora.com

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From Ilan.Doron@audiocodes.com  Tue Aug 30 23:56:43 2011
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From: Ilan Doron <Ilan.Doron@audiocodes.com>
To: Tom Taylor <tom111.taylor@bell.net>, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>
Thread-Topic: [AVTCORE] Hi from Ilan
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Actually nothing I know of was different in this last message.
But notice my colleague here in Audiocodes didn't get any of my messages.
He got only your replies to my messages.
I think I will try sending ASCII.

Ilan Doron


-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Taylor [mailto:tom111.taylor@bell.net]
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 1:49
To: Adam Roach
Cc: Ilan Doron; avt@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Hi from Ilan

That can't be it. Ilan's mail generally doesn't show up as
administrative requests. The one exception was caught by "Message has
implicit destination", which probably means he bcc'd someone.

Ilan, what was different about the message you just sent compared with
others that didn't get through?

Tom Taylor

On 29/08/2011 12:17 PM, Adam Roach wrote:
> You're apparently attaching two images to every email you send out. My
> guess is that most of what you send is being discarded as being too
> large for the mailing list.
>
> /a
>
> On 8/29/11 11:10 AM, Ilan Doron wrote:
>>
>> HI
>>
>> My posts aren't being posted?
>>
>> Why does this happen?
>>
>> What can I do?
>>
>> *Ilan Doron**
>> *System Software - R & D
>>
>> *Tel*: +972-3-9764354
>> *Fax*: +972-3-9764223
>>
>> *Mobi**l**e*: +972-54-6262-775
>> *Email*: iland@audiocodes.com <mailto:iland@audiocodes.com>
>> <mailto:Golan.Buznak@audiocodes.comWeb>*Web*:www.audiocodes.com
>> <http://www.audiocodes.com/>
>>
>> <image removed>
>> <http://www.audiocodes.com/solutions/hdvoip>
>>
>> _Click to Sign Up for our email updates
>> <http://www.mymarketing.co.il/Subscribe.htm?_u=3Df3j2a8>_
>>
>> *<image removed>
>>
>> *
>>
>> *Somewhere there is a tree thanking you for cutting back on printing...*
>>
>>
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From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Wed Aug 31 00:04:00 2011
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Subject: [AVTCORE] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-06.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenanc=
e Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : RTCP Extension for Third-party Loss Report
	Author(s)       : Qin Wu
                          Frank Xia
                          Roni Even
	Filename        : draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-06.txt
	Pages           : 18
	Date            : 2011-08-31

   In a large RTP session using the RTCP feedback mechanism defined in
   RFC 4585, a feedback target may experience transient overload if some
   event causes a large number of receivers to send feedback at once.
   This overload is usually avoided by ensuring that feedback reports
   are forwarded to all receivers, allowing them to avoid sending
   duplicate feedback reports.  However, there are cases where it is not
   recommended to forward feedback reports, and this may allow feedback
   implosion.  This memo discusses these cases and defines a new RTCP
   third-party loss report that can be used to inform receivers that a
   feedback target is aware of some loss event, allowing them to
   suppress feedback.  Associated SDP signalling is also defined.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-=
rtp-06.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-r=
tp-06.txt

From bill.wu@huawei.com  Wed Aug 31 00:23:53 2011
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From: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>
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Subject: [AVTCORE] Fw: I-D Action:draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-06.txt
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Hi, chairs:
We have submitted a new version for feedback suppression draft, 
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-06.txt
which addresses the nits, all editortial changes.
I think it is ready for WGLC.

Diff is:
http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-06.txt

Regards!
-Qin
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
To: <i-d-announce@ietf.org>
Cc: <avt@ietf.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 3:03 PM
Subject: [AVTCORE] I-D Action:draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-06.txt


>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance Working Group of the IETF.
> 
> Title           : RTCP Extension for Third-party Loss Report
> Author(s)       : Qin Wu
>                          Frank Xia
>                          Roni Even
> Filename        : draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-06.txt
> Pages           : 18
> Date            : 2011-08-31
> 
>   In a large RTP session using the RTCP feedback mechanism defined in
>   RFC 4585, a feedback target may experience transient overload if some
>   event causes a large number of receivers to send feedback at once.
>   This overload is usually avoided by ensuring that feedback reports
>   are forwarded to all receivers, allowing them to avoid sending
>   duplicate feedback reports.  However, there are cases where it is not
>   recommended to forward feedback reports, and this may allow feedback
>   implosion.  This memo discusses these cases and defines a new RTCP
>   third-party loss report that can be used to inform receivers that a
>   feedback target is aware of some loss event, allowing them to
>   suppress feedback.  Associated SDP signalling is also defined.
> 
> 
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-06.txt
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 
> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-06.txt
> _______________________________________________
> Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance
> avt@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt

From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Wed Aug 31 02:46:08 2011
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Subject: [AVTCORE] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtcore-monarch-04.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenanc=
e Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Monitoring Architectures for RTP
	Author(s)       : Qin Wu
                          Geoff Hunt
                          Philip Arden
	Filename        : draft-ietf-avtcore-monarch-04.txt
	Pages           : 23
	Date            : 2011-08-31

   This memo proposes an architecture for extending RTCP with a new RTCP
   XR (RFC3611) block type to report new metrics regarding media
   transmission or reception quality, as proposed in RFC5968.  This memo
   suggests that a new block should contain a single metric or a small
   number of metrics relevant to a single parameter of interest or
   concern, rather than containing a number of metrics which attempt to
   provide full coverage of all those parameters of concern to a
   specific application.  Applications may then &quot;mix and match&quot; to
   create a set of blocks which covers their set of concerns.  Where
   possible, a specific block should be designed to be re-usable across
   more than one application, for example, for all of voice, streaming
   audio and video.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtcore-monarch-04.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtcore-monarch-04.txt

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From: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>
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All,

We addressed all the issues discussed in the last IETF meeting in this revision. The draft is now ready for your review and comments.
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtcore-monarch-04.txt

Diff is here:
http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-avtcore-monarch-04.txt

Co-chairs,

We believe the draft is ready for WGLC.

Regards!
-Qin


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<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">All,<BR><BR>We addressed all the&nbsp;issues 
discussed in the last IETF meeting&nbsp;in this revision.&nbsp;The draft is now 
ready for your review and comments.<BR></FONT><A 
href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtcore-monarch-04.txt"><FONT 
face="Times New Roman">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtcore-monarch-04.txt</FONT></A><BR><BR><FONT 
face="Times New Roman">Diff is&nbsp;here:</FONT></DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><A 
href="http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-avtcore-monarch-04.txt">http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-avtcore-monarch-04.txt</A></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Co-chairs,<BR><BR>We believe the draft 
is ready for WGLC.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Regards!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">-Qin</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com  Wed Aug 31 04:58:31 2011
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On 2011-08-16 13:58, Ilan Doron wrote:
> Thanks
> 
> But I want clarify my requirement, since I am not looking for a solution
> only in the specific scenario presented below (though it is relevant…)
> 
>  
> 
> Assume I want the remote side to perform some specific changes in the
> ‘out media stream’.
> 
> How should I send the remote side a request to change its sending
> properties?
> 
>  
> 
> Should it be RTCP? For example RTCP FB (rfc4585) or some new RTCP packet
> type.
> 
> Or maybe use a new RTP profile?

To answer the question where I think a solution for requesting or
providing preferences for redundancy levels I think CCM (RFC5104) is a
suitable platform to expand. That way redundancy adjustments due to
secondary paths from a middlebox can be handled.

cheers

Magnus Westerlund

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From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com  Wed Aug 31 05:03:09 2011
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On 2011-08-31 08:19, Rachel Huang(yihong) wrote:
> Hi, Olivier,
> 
> I guess RFC 5104 has described the difference and usage of the two SSRCs. Check it in 4.3.1.2 of RFC5104, the first paragraph.
> 

Rachel is correct, and to quote the first paragraph of that section:

4.3.1.2.  Semantics

   Within the common packet header for feedback messages (as defined in
   section 6.1 of [RFC4585]), the "SSRC of packet sender" field
   indicates the source of the request, and the "SSRC of media source"
   is not used and SHALL be set to 0.  The SSRCs of the media senders to
   which the FIR command applies are in the corresponding FCI entries.
   A FIR message MAY contain requests to multiple media senders, using
   one FCI entry per target media sender.

The last sentence reveals why we selected this design. This was to
enable to include multiple SSRCs in one FIR request message. Otherwise
one would need to duplicate the feedback header for each SSRC to request
on.

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

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On 2011-08-31 08:58, Ilan Doron wrote:
> Actually nothing I know of was different in this last message.
> But notice my colleague here in Audiocodes didn't get any of my messages.
> He got only your replies to my messages.
> I think I will try sending ASCII.
> 

One reason may be that you in a previous message used the list address
as: <'avt@ietf.org'>, in case some MTAs may handle the ' and some others
not. I at least when sending a reply to the mailing my mail agent did
not accept these as valid outgoing email address.

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

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From bill.wu@huawei.com  Wed Aug 31 20:01:18 2011
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