From internet-drafts@ietf.org Mon Feb 6 04:45:43 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9688221F85FB; Mon, 6 Feb 2012 04:45:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.051, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vX9wrIIhU8uu; Mon, 6 Feb 2012 04:45:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AB2821F861F; Mon, 6 Feb 2012 04:45:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 3.64p1 Message-ID: <20120206124522.29997.10519.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2012 04:45:22 -0800 Cc: avt@ietf.org Subject: [AVTCORE] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-10.txt X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2012 12:45:43 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenanc= e Working Group of the IETF. Title : RTCP Extension for Third-party Loss Report Author(s) : Qin Wu Frank Xia Roni Even Filename : draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-10.txt Pages : 17 Date : 2012-02-06 In a large RTP session using the RTCP feedback mechanism defined in RFC 4585, a feedback target may experience transient overload if some event causes a large number of receivers to send feedback at once. This overload is usually avoided by ensuring that feedback reports are forwarded to all receivers, allowing them to avoid sending duplicate feedback reports. However, there are cases where it is not recommended to forward feedback reports, and this may allow feedback implosion. This memo discusses these cases and defines a new RTCP third-party loss report that can be used to inform receivers that the feedback target is aware of some loss event, allowing them to suppress feedback. Associated SDP signalling is also defined. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-= rtp-10.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-r= tp-10.txt From internet-drafts@ietf.org Thu Feb 9 17:58:16 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45F4D11E80A1; Thu, 9 Feb 2012 17:58:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.573 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.573 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.026, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VtiHLGKsjp0S; Thu, 9 Feb 2012 17:58:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E043911E8076; Thu, 9 Feb 2012 17:57:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 3.64p1 Message-ID: <20120210015752.28236.86967.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2012 17:57:52 -0800 Cc: avt@ietf.org Subject: [AVTCORE] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-11.txt X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 01:58:16 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenanc= e Working Group of the IETF. Title : RTCP Extension for Third-party Loss Report Author(s) : Qin Wu Frank Xia Roni Even Filename : draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-11.txt Pages : 17 Date : 2012-02-09 In a large RTP session using the RTCP feedback mechanism defined in RFC 4585, a feedback target may experience transient overload if some event causes a large number of receivers to send feedback at once. This overload is usually avoided by ensuring that feedback reports are forwarded to all receivers, allowing them to avoid sending duplicate feedback reports. However, there are cases where it is not recommended to forward feedback reports, and this may allow feedback implosion. This memo discusses these cases and defines a new RTCP third-party loss report that can be used to inform receivers that the feedback target is aware of some loss event, allowing them to suppress feedback. Associated SDP signalling is also defined. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-= rtp-11.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-r= tp-11.txt From bill.wu@huawei.com Thu Feb 9 18:08:57 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFCB321F8587 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2012 18:08:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.918 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.918 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.681, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IlOXHAUZuKAT for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2012 18:08:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (szxga04-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.67]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8776511E8075 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2012 18:08:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LZ5000FSNA82E@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for avt@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2012 10:08:32 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LZ5001ONN9QPR@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for avt@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2012 10:08:32 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxeml211-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA) with ESMTP id AGZ93376; Fri, 10 Feb 2012 10:08:32 +0800 Received: from SZXEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.32) by szxeml211-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.182) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Fri, 10 Feb 2012 10:07:48 +0800 Received: from w53375q (10.138.41.130) by szxeml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Fri, 10 Feb 2012 10:08:25 +0800 Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 10:08:24 +0800 From: Qin Wu X-Originating-IP: [10.138.41.130] To: avt@ietf.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6109 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Subject: [AVTCORE] Fw: I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-11.txt X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 02:08:57 -0000 On 10 February 2012, at 9:57 AM, Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance Working Group of the IETF. > > Title : RTCP Extension for Third-party Loss Report > Author(s) : Qin Wu > Frank Xia > Roni Even > Filename : draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-11.txt > Pages : 17 > Date : 2012-02-09 > > In a large RTP session using the RTCP feedback mechanism defined in > RFC 4585, a feedback target may experience transient overload if some > event causes a large number of receivers to send feedback at once. > This overload is usually avoided by ensuring that feedback reports > are forwarded to all receivers, allowing them to avoid sending > duplicate feedback reports. However, there are cases where it is not > recommended to forward feedback reports, and this may allow feedback > implosion. This memo discusses these cases and defines a new RTCP > third-party loss report that can be used to inform receivers that the > feedback target is aware of some loss event, allowing them to > suppress feedback. Associated SDP signalling is also defined. > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-11.txt Here is the update to Feedback suppression draft. In this version, we made some minor fixes including fixing the definition of Synchronization source for TPLR and associating SDP parameters tllei and pslei with "nack" We hope these will address the LC comments. From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Wed Feb 15 05:57:28 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01E1121F84D9 for ; Wed, 15 Feb 2012 05:57:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.06 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.06 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.539, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sohsAB2PUOLc for ; Wed, 15 Feb 2012 05:57:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (mailgw9.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.57]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B60E21F84CF for ; Wed, 15 Feb 2012 05:57:26 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb39-b7bf2ae0000069a1-b3-4f3bb9c59db5 Received: from esessmw0237.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 95.34.27041.5C9BB3F4; Wed, 15 Feb 2012 14:57:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0237.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.91) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.213.0; Wed, 15 Feb 2012 14:57:24 +0100 Message-ID: <4F3BB9C2.3020509@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 14:57:22 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:10.0.1) Gecko/20120208 Thunderbird/10.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF AVTCore WG X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: [AVTCORE] Comments on draft-ietf-avtcore-monarch-09 X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 13:57:28 -0000 Hi, As a WG chair I got the request to start a WG last call on this document. I have been a bit slow to get to this, but when I looked at the document before starting the WG last call I think the document isn't really ready for a WG last call. Thus instead I request that the WG helps develop the document to be ready for WG last call. The main issue I see with this document is focused on section 3 which is intended to provide an overview of the monitoring architecture for RTP. I see a number of issues with this section and especially figure 1. 1. Figure one fails to place third party monitor in relation to any of the packet flows. I think they belong on the RTP/RTCP paths between the sender, intermediate and the receiver. 2. I think the document needs to discuss a bit about how the information flows from the different nodes to the management systems. There is an arrow 5 from the RTP sender to the management system. First of all I think this arrow should be separated from the other 5. In addition I think there should exist arrows from the Third party monitor, the monitor in the intermediate and receiver directly to the management systems. And these arrows could be RTCP information being forward in real-time. However, they could also be other solutions. 3. In general I think 3.1 should discuss what exist already for monitoring which there is no discussion. Like the RTP MIB. I can also see other solutions like using IPfix to capture a packet flow and then process using an RTP and RTCP receiver. 4. The document argues for RTCP XR based monitoring, but can you please provide a clear indication of what the benefits are. Below is a number of issues I found 5. Title: "Monitoring Architectures for RTP" is the plural in architectures intentional? If, you better have the document live up to that. The abstract doesn't appear to match that either. 6. Section 1. "As more users and subscribers rely on real time application services, uncertainties in the performance and availability of these services are driving the need to support new standard methods for gathering performance metrics from RTP applications." What users and subscribers are you discussing above? The ones using RTP to build services or the actual user of the service using RTP? 7. Section 1, These rapidly emerging standards, such as RTCP XR [RFC3611] Please expand abrivetations on first usage. And in this case I think the correct title should be used prior to the reference ... such as "RTP Control Protocol Extended Reports (RTCP XR)" [RFC3611] ... 8. Section 1. " Quality of Experience (QoE)." Can you please include some reference that explains the concept of QoE? 9. Section 1: "Since different applications layered on RTP may have some monitoring requirements in common, therefore these metrics should be satisfied by a common design." The above sentence needs to be reformulated. 10. Section 2: Section title doesn't match content. 11. Section 2: One example of such metrics is the QoE Metric specified in QoE metric reporting Block [MQ]. I don't think that reference is a good example. The reference defines how to transport and identify a large number of application level metrics in RTCP XR, rather than being an example of a metric. 12. Section 2: Composed metrics Metrics that are calculated based on direct metric or combination of direct metric and derived metrics. What is an derived metric? Appears to be an reference without an explanation. 13. Section 2: Interval metrics It is referred to as the metrics of which the reported values apply to the most recent measurement interval duration between successive metrics reports Is "interval duration" actually good English? To me the duration of an interval is the actual interval. 14. Section 2: Sampled metrics It is referred to as the metrics of which the reported values only apply to the value of a continuously measured or calculated that has been sampled at end of the interval. Doesn't the above exclude metrics measured at give instance. Or is that what "sampled at end of the interval" means? But then it isn't actually an interval, is it? 15. Section 3.1: According to the definition of monitor in the RTP Protocol [RFC3550], the end system that source RTP streams, an intermediate-system that forwards RTP packets to End- devices or a third party that does not participate in the RTP session (i.e., the third party monitor depicted in figure 1) can be envisioned to act as the Monitor within the RTP monitoring architecture. Shouldn't the RTP receiver be included in the above? 16. Section 3.1: When considering the monitoring architecture, I think it is important to remember that we have topologies like the SSM, where few sources are potentially distributed to many receivers and where feedback is aggregated in feedback targets for potential processing and filtering back upstream. 17. Section 3.2: o RTCP NACK is used to provide feedback on the RTP sequence number of the lost packets [RFC4585]. In this case I would be a bit careful. Because the sequence numbers reported on in NACK may in fact be a subset of all lost packets. Already the media stream receiver creating NACK requests may in fact filter on which sequence number is reported. There was a proposal for a informative block (draft-ietf-avt-rtp-selret-05.txt) that allowed for this type of information. There is other cases where a receiver will be able to determine that it doesn't need to ask for some lost packets. 18. Section 3.3: For instance, application level metrics for QoE related performance parameters are usually measured at the user device in the home network. I think you need to be careful with "usually" here. There is a lot of hidden assumptions going into this sentence. I would recommend that one attempts to be more objective and less assuming in the description. Also there is a question what definition you have of a given location. Like the home network which might look significant different depending on where and whos network you look at. 19. Section 4: o Using large block. I think "large" is a bad term, when you in reality are talking about compound or aggregated metrics blocks. I would suggest picking some other term and ensure that "large" isn't used in this meaning. 20. Section 4: "It may be also fixed across multiple RTP sessions from the same source. " I think the above is missing "at the same time". 21. Section 5.1: To avoid this pitfall, this memo proposes the use of small RTCP XR metrics blocks each containing a very small number of individual metrics characterizing only one parameter of interest to an application running over RTP. This one is similar with 19. Instead of small, maybe single metric or something like this. 22. Section 5.2: non- RTP-based / non-RTP-based 23. Section 5.3: This memo proposes to define a new XR Block that will be used to convey the common time period and the number of packets sent during this period [MI]. "this memo" is reference the monarch document no the MI, which I think is the intention. 24. Section 5.3: If the measurement interval for a metric is different from the RTCP reporting interval, then this measurement duration in the [MI] SHOULD be used to specify the interval. New RTCP XR metric blocks that rely on the Measurement information block [MI] MUST specify the response in case the new RTCP XR metric block is received without an associated measurement information block; Normative statements? in a informative draft. Is the intention to quote the drafts text, then please make it a quote. 25. Section 6. This implies the creation of a subsidiary namespace to enumerate the PDV metrics which may be transported by this block, as discussed further in [PDV] . I would like to note that this assume a certain simularity in metric structure that allows the different metrics values to be carried in the same basic structure. 26. I have also noted a number of cases where the "." is not in the appropriate place, often additional space before the ".". Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Thu Feb 16 00:35:48 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34E6221F8624 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2012 00:35:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.078 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.078 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.521, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x60W+SdoBRpC for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2012 00:35:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw10.se.ericsson.net (mailgw10.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 106A121F8631 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2012 00:35:46 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3d-b7bb7ae0000007b2-9c-4f3cbfe19060 Received: from esessmw0184.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw10.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 64.05.01970.1EFBC3F4; Thu, 16 Feb 2012 09:35:45 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0184.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.82) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.213.0; Thu, 16 Feb 2012 09:35:45 +0100 Message-ID: <4F3CBFDF.1050502@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 09:35:43 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:10.0.1) Gecko/20120208 Thunderbird/10.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Qin Wu References: <4F182C52.5010706@ericsson.com> <4F182D48.4040804@ericsson.com> <3374650BFFC7477E8B48193E1976DA4D@china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <3374650BFFC7477E8B48193E1976DA4D@china.huawei.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Cc: "avt@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] WG last call for RTCP Extension for Third-party Loss Report (draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-09) X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 08:35:48 -0000 Hi, I have reviewed the changes you have done. I think they are ok, except for the one below. On 2012-01-30 10:03, Qin Wu wrote: > 1. Section 4.2: > > Synchronization source (SSRC):32 bits > > The SSRC value of the media source that is requested to send a > decoder refresh point or that is indicated that it lost > synchronization with the video stream. > > I think this definition is wrong. Shouldn't it be the SSRC for who's > media stream the media sender is already aware of an expressed need for > taking action that a PLI or FIR reqiests of this SSRC? > > I don't think the above is the right text for the spec, but I just > trying to express what the right type of definition would be. > > [Qin]: Agree. How about changing the text as: > " > Section 4.2: > > Synchronization source (SSRC):32 bits > > The SSRC value of the media source that has already been aware the > receiver lost synchronization with the video stream and signal to > the receiver not sending a decoder refresh point > " I think this is better but has strange grammar. Wouldn't it be more correct to say: Synchronization source (SSRC):32 bits The SSRC value of the media source that is already aware, or in the process of being made aware, that some receiver lost synchronization with the media stream and for which the PSLEI receiver's own response to any such error is suppressed. ? Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From bill.wu@huawei.com Thu Feb 16 02:00:27 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2E3221F86F2 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2012 02:00:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.503 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.503 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.644, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_ENC_UTF8=0.152] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bTKEsAHD+Lxo for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2012 02:00:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (szxga04-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.67]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D09C21F8516 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2012 02:00:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LZH008ZTD4M82@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for avt@ietf.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2012 18:00:22 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LZH000PHD4LM1@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for avt@ietf.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2012 18:00:22 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxeml214-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA) with ESMTP id AGW70296; Thu, 16 Feb 2012 17:59:43 +0800 Received: from SZXEML406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.93) by szxeml214-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.29) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Thu, 16 Feb 2012 17:59:33 +0800 Received: from SZXEML523-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.6.84]) by szxeml406-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.82.67.93]) with mapi id 14.01.0323.003; Thu, 16 Feb 2012 17:59:38 +0800 Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 09:59:37 +0000 From: Qin Wu In-reply-to: <4F3CBFDF.1050502@ericsson.com> X-Originating-IP: [172.24.1.46] To: Magnus Westerlund Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-language: zh-CN Content-transfer-encoding: base64 Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: [AVTCORE] WG last call for RTCP Extension for Third-party Loss Report (draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-09) Thread-index: AQHM1rl5ya7MC2Lh7UK63PhRg31z4pYktpAGgBoh0YCAAJv7dw== X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <4F182C52.5010706@ericsson.com> <4F182D48.4040804@ericsson.com> <3374650BFFC7477E8B48193E1976DA4D@china.huawei.com> <4F3CBFDF.1050502@ericsson.com> Cc: "avt@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp@tools.ietf.org" Subject: [AVTCORE] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiAgV0cgbGFzdCBjYWxsIGZvciBSVENQIEV4?= =?utf-8?q?tension_for_Third-party_Loss_Report_=28draft-ietf-avtcore-feedb?= =?utf-8?q?ack-supression-rtp-09=29?= X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 10:00:27 -0000 SGksTWFnbnVzOg0KVGhlIHByb3Bvc2VkIGNoYW5nZSBsb29rcyBnb29kIHRvIG1lLCANCkkgd2ls bCBpbXBlbWVudCB0aGlzIGluIHRoZSB1cGRhdGUuIFRoYW5rIHlvdSB2ZXJ5IG11Y2guDQoNClJl Z2FyZHMhDQotUWluDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQrl j5Hku7bkuro6IGF2dC1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnIFthdnQtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10g5Luj 6KGoIE1hZ251cyBXZXN0ZXJsdW5kIFttYWdudXMud2VzdGVybHVuZEBlcmljc3Nvbi5jb21dDQrl 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQpBdWRpby9WaWRlbyBUcmFuc3BvcnQgQ29yZSBNYWlu dGVuYW5jZQ0KYXZ0QGlldGYub3JnDQpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3Rp bmZvL2F2dA== From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Fri Feb 17 01:34:35 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26E5721F8891 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2012 01:34:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.813 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.813 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.186, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vPPSVSviyILR for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2012 01:34:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw10.se.ericsson.net (mailgw10.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C186621F86DD for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2012 01:34:33 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3d-b7bb7ae0000007b2-b4-4f3e1f283b87 Received: from esessmw0247.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw10.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 4B.4E.01970.82F1E3F4; Fri, 17 Feb 2012 10:34:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0247.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.94) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.213.0; Fri, 17 Feb 2012 10:34:32 +0100 Message-ID: <4F3E1F27.6020108@ericsson.com> Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 10:34:31 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:10.0.1) Gecko/20120208 Thunderbird/10.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Wing , "David A. McGrew" , Flemming Andreasen , kai.fischer@siemens-enterprise.com, IETF AVTCore WG X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: [AVTCORE] Questions regarding EKT (draft-ietf-avt-srtp-ekt-03) X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 09:34:35 -0000 Authors, WG, I have reviewed the EKT draft and have a number of high level comments and questions about this draft. Please consider this as individual input, not as WG chair. I have done this review from the perspective of checking if two different use cases are possible to realize using EKT. The two use cases are: A) Centralized conferencing using a RTP transport translator. Example would be 4 end-points establishing unicast traffic session to the translator. On each of these DTLS-SRTP would be used for keying and all nodes support EKT. The goal is that the transport translator should be able to forward all RTP and RTCP packets from one participant to all the other without any processing related to security (SRTP). I assume the translator supports DTLS-SRTP and the signalling helps ensure that the conference participants agree on a single KEK and SPI set. B) A WEBRTC endpoint Alice (using DTLS-SRTP + EKT in this case) uses a media gateway (MGW) (DTLS+SRTP and EKT support) to connect to a SDESC keyed SRTP legacy end-point Bob. The goal is that the MGW should not need to perform any SRTP or SRTCP operations beyond injecting Bob's key using EKT to Alice. This is basically the use case described in Appendix A in the draft. >From my review I have the following issues with the current definition of EKT or at least the description. I do not rule out that I have missed something in the description. 1) It appears that use case B above is not functional with EKT as currently defined. My understanding is that the MGW will have to modify all RTP and RTCP packets as they pass the MGW. This as the presence of the EKT authentication tag, in either form requires one to recalculate the base authentication tag. This as it covers the keys and fields of the EKT authentication tag, even in the abbreviated form where the reserved and "0" abbreviated form indication bit is covered. Thus it is impossible for the MGW to perform a packet transformation by simply stripping away the extra byte in the abbreviated form in the Alice to Bob direction, remember that Bob is legacy and wants no EKT authentication tags as it doesn't understand them. Also in the other direction where the MGW needs to include EKT information in the RTP/RTCP packets where it would like to indicate Bob's key to Alice it needs to recompute all RTP and RTCP packets to ensure that the authentication tag changes from the regular 80 bit SHA-1 HMAC to either the full or abbreviated EKT authentication tag including a different 80-bit SHA-1 HMAC tag. This appears to be a design flaw. I think it is important that EKT can be used with legacy and the MGW only needs to do basic insertion or stripping operations of the packets to convert them between EKT and regular SRTP versions of the authentication tag. 2) If I understand correctly there are in fact three ways of EKT operation in regards how to use the KEK and EKT where of 2 I think are intentional. This is focused on use case A above. i) Use a single KEK+SPI over all session participants, having the signaling and the central conference server force the participants to agree on the servers decided KEK and SPI information ii) Have each participant agree with the server on a different KEK+SPI, then distribute each KEK and SPI to all the participants so that EKT SRTP/SRTCP packets can go end-to-end between all participants. iii) Have each participant agree with the server on a different KEK+SPI, then have the central node to modify the EKT messages to match the KEK that particular participant has. This last one is only practical if only the SRTP/SRTCP messages that has a master key in them needs to be modified. I assume iii) is not intentional to use as it is sub-optimal. ii) seems to have one issue that is clearly insufficiently discussed in the draft. That is how the system ensures that all participants agree on different SPI values so that none is overlapping within the RTP session. For both i) and ii) I am missing discussion in the negotiation sections on the details how the SPI value is negotiated and can be changed by the party representing the centralized conference to arrive at a set that are unique. I also think this can result in some "clipping" cases as somewhat discussed. In addition the fact that one has two different modes of operation it is unclear which should be used by an end-point in a given session and there is no signaling for this. In worst case the conference server assumes that each participant will generate a KEK and use different ones, while a participants implementation assumes that a single one will be used. So clarification of both implementation requirements of these operation modes and the signaling necessary to agree on what is being used. 3) The draft discusses that one can use EKT authentication tags in RTCP only, RTP only or both. However, it appears there is no signaling to negotiate which should be used. Is the goal that one uses the EKT authentication tag always in both RTP and RTCP independent if one actually is sending full EKT authentication tag only in RTCP? If that is not the intention I think the aspect of how one negotiates what authentication format for RTP and RTCP needs to be clarified. 4) Section 2.2.2: I am a bit confused over the process when using ISN. The first one has to do with that one uses ISN in the replay protection part. That would mean that multiple SRTCP packets containing the same EKT transported master key would be considered duplicates, despite the actual RTCP information in it is not a duplicate. Why isn't the regular RTCP packet index or RTP sequence number used in the replay protection? Secondly, if I understand correctly in a SRTP packet that contains a full EKT auth tag that has a RTP sequence number that is lower than the ISN (when re-keying) will still use the new key that is included in the KEK protected part for the packet protection (encryption and integrity). I find this strange behavior to use the new key prior to the ISN. It also appears to have the effect that if one uses different EKT SPI to protect the new key compared to the old key in use by this end-point the receivers that hasn't gotten this SPI+KEK can't decode this RTP/RTCP packet despite this is prior to the rekeying point. That can't be the intention as it creates an unclean key-change. I do have more detailed comments but I will save those until I have received answer on these to determine if they are worth writing up or may become irrelevant due to changes. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From internet-drafts@ietf.org Fri Feb 17 02:39:06 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B689D21F8844; Fri, 17 Feb 2012 02:39:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.588 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.588 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.011, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NVP2vGv2bWHg; Fri, 17 Feb 2012 02:39:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04D0921F87EC; Fri, 17 Feb 2012 02:39:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 3.64p2 Message-ID: <20120217103906.12813.11898.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 02:39:06 -0800 Cc: avt@ietf.org Subject: [AVTCORE] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtcore-ecn-for-rtp-06.txt X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 10:39:06 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenanc= e Working Group of the IETF. Title : Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN) for RTP over UDP Author(s) : Magnus Westerlund Ingemar Johansson Colin Perkins Piers O'Hanlon Ken Carlberg Filename : draft-ietf-avtcore-ecn-for-rtp-06.txt Pages : 56 Date : 2012-02-17 This memo specifies how Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN) can be used with the Real-time Transport Protocol (RTP) running over UDP, using RTP Control Protocol (RTCP) as a feedback mechanism. It defines a new RTCP Extended Report (XR) block for periodic ECN feedback, a new RTCP transport feedback message for timely reporting of congestion events, and a Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) extension used in the optional initialization method using Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE). Signalling and procedures for negotiation of capabilities and initialization methods are also defined. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtcore-ecn-for-rtp-06.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtcore-ecn-for-rtp-06.txt From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Fri Feb 17 02:47:17 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98DC121F8781 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2012 02:47:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.126 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.126 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.473, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FcJffDmjniru for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2012 02:47:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw10.se.ericsson.net (mailgw10.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D65621F8792 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2012 02:47:16 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3d-b7bb7ae0000007b2-56-4f3e3033328d Received: from esessmw0247.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw10.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id D2.4F.01970.3303E3F4; Fri, 17 Feb 2012 11:47:15 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0247.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.94) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.213.0; Fri, 17 Feb 2012 11:47:15 +0100 Message-ID: <4F3E3032.5000407@ericsson.com> Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 11:47:14 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:10.0.1) Gecko/20120208 Thunderbird/10.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF AVTCore WG References: <20120217103906.12813.11898.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20120217103906.12813.11898.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtcore-ecn-for-rtp-06.txt X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 10:47:17 -0000 WG, We authors have now submitted a new version of the draft. It contains text proposal for the two outstanding issues and some few minor editorial changes. Please review these proposals and provide us feedback within 2 weeks. I hope the responsible WG chair will progress these documents unless there is no feedback after these 2 weeks. If you have reviewed the changes and think they are fine, please provide that feedback also. Diff: http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-avtcore-ecn-for-rtp-06 Cheers Magnus Westerlund (as author) On 2012-02-17 11:39, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance Working Group of the IETF. > > Title : Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN) for RTP over UDP > Author(s) : Magnus Westerlund > Ingemar Johansson > Colin Perkins > Piers O'Hanlon > Ken Carlberg > Filename : draft-ietf-avtcore-ecn-for-rtp-06.txt > Pages : 56 > Date : 2012-02-17 > > This memo specifies how Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN) can be > used with the Real-time Transport Protocol (RTP) running over UDP, > using RTP Control Protocol (RTCP) as a feedback mechanism. It > defines a new RTCP Extended Report (XR) block for periodic ECN > feedback, a new RTCP transport feedback message for timely reporting > of congestion events, and a Session Traversal Utilities for NAT > (STUN) extension used in the optional initialization method using > Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE). Signalling and > procedures for negotiation of capabilities and initialization methods > are also defined. > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtcore-ecn-for-rtp-06.txt > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtcore-ecn-for-rtp-06.txt > > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From internet-drafts@ietf.org Fri Feb 17 03:04:06 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9522C21F8732; Fri, 17 Feb 2012 03:04:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.588 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.588 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.011, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y1MIWBFjaE1C; Fri, 17 Feb 2012 03:04:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 992B121F8527; Fri, 17 Feb 2012 03:04:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 3.64p2 Message-ID: <20120217110405.21222.68508.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 03:04:05 -0800 Cc: avt@ietf.org Subject: [AVTCORE] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-12.txt X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 11:04:06 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenanc= e Working Group of the IETF. Title : RTCP Extension for Third-party Loss Report Author(s) : Qin Wu Frank Xia Roni Even Filename : draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-12.txt Pages : 17 Date : 2012-02-17 In a large RTP session using the RTCP feedback mechanism defined in RFC 4585, a feedback target may experience transient overload if some event causes a large number of receivers to send feedback at once. This overload is usually avoided by ensuring that feedback reports are forwarded to all receivers, allowing them to avoid sending duplicate feedback reports. However, there are cases where it is not recommended to forward feedback reports, and this may allow feedback implosion. This memo discusses these cases and defines a new RTCP third-party loss report that can be used to inform receivers that the feedback target is aware of some loss event, allowing them to suppress feedback. Associated SDP signalling is also defined. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-= rtp-12.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-r= tp-12.txt From ron.even.tlv@gmail.com Fri Feb 17 05:09:36 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6232721F8693 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2012 05:09:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WGyevDNQOp5s for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2012 05:09:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vx0-f172.google.com (mail-vx0-f172.google.com [209.85.220.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E76821F86F0 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2012 05:09:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by vcbfk14 with SMTP id fk14so2564643vcb.31 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2012 05:09:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type:x-mailer :thread-index:content-language; bh=jE8MwpNOGHV3KRQGYwSqhMEqmvsla7HLwljC5FFYgZs=; b=Sld2XuukuI8GGWn9x5fdonAZkk9G3qfqzKoc/x5WwSFjIGhrvsM4eCPGja6j7Bs+At LG4L8O/VDxPflUiRWNDgRlCUhMBLOU+8cPcxhCv4IfbCxPQRWptcRAuGSR6uKNEIn49Y oLBqqdrB/FOKuKWOV6GrkHYKv2Y8P8HtNWoNk= Received: by 10.220.238.200 with SMTP id kt8mr3632197vcb.23.1329484174999; Fri, 17 Feb 2012 05:09:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from windows8d787f9 (user-0ccehtm.cable.mindspring.com. [24.199.71.182]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fj4sm6639934vdb.22.2012.02.17.05.09.33 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 17 Feb 2012 05:09:34 -0800 (PST) From: "Roni Even" To: Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 15:09:16 +0200 Message-ID: <4f3e518e.e465340a.47a8.3fa7@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0047_01CCED86.1E7B0100" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcztdVn/wBt2qImoRn+gFRipQCaobA== Content-Language: en-us Subject: [AVTCORE] WGLC on Encryption of Header Extensions in SRTP X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 13:09:36 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01CCED86.1E7B0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I would like to start a WGLC on Encryption of Header Extensions in the Secure Real-Time Transport Protocol (SRTP) in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-avtcore-srtp-encrypted-header-ext-01 This is the abstract of the draft: "The Secure Real-Time Transport Protocol (SRTP) provides authentication, but not encryption, of the headers of Real-Time Transport Protocol (RTP) packets. However, RTP header extensions may carry sensitive information for which participants in multimedia sessions want confidentiality. This document provides a mechanism, extending the mechanisms of SRTP, to selectively encrypt RTP header extensions in SRTP." Please send any comments by March 8th . Thanks Roni Even ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01CCED86.1E7B0100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

I would like to = start a WGLC on  Encryption of Header Extensions in = the Secure  Real-Time Transport  = Protocol (SRTP) in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-avtcore-srtp-encrypted-h= eader-ext-01

 

This is the = abstract of the draft:

 

"The =
Secure Real-Time Transport Protocol (SRTP) provides  =
authentication, but not encryption, of the headers of Real-Time =
Transport Protocol (RTP) packets.  However, RTP header extensions =
may  carry sensitive information for which participants in =
multimedia  sessions want confidentiality.  This document =
provides a mechanism,  extending the mechanisms of SRTP, to =
selectively encrypt RTP header  extensions in =
SRTP."
 

 

Please send = any comments  by March 8th .

 

Thanks

Roni = Even

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01CCED86.1E7B0100-- From woohwankim@gmail.com Tue Feb 21 21:32:57 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5388A21F8667 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 2012 21:32:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pI877dnvaUiT for ; Tue, 21 Feb 2012 21:32:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vw0-f44.google.com (mail-vw0-f44.google.com [209.85.212.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0742B21F861E for ; Tue, 21 Feb 2012 21:32:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by vbbfr13 with SMTP id fr13so126539vbb.31 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 2012 21:32:53 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of woohwankim@gmail.com designates 10.52.88.103 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.52.88.103; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of woohwankim@gmail.com designates 10.52.88.103 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=woohwankim@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=woohwankim@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.52.88.103]) by 10.52.88.103 with SMTP id bf7mr4214209vdb.72.1329888773486 (num_hops = 1); Tue, 21 Feb 2012 21:32:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=jcPr/2M4ERvcbk6lnI1d0/SMSQkZQ5sW4nF7hhwmDkc=; b=TtJ1DZGaDkmfNv+SpBTtd6gJM58kMw1yvX4PfCp0rFLUwzy0hx9wmF68f3XmddBTlg yuJpCFSd3TprJyUxIVLH++sbyUg+FBtva46FYWKeYCQZwBJ0i/nTBojjCy32a7pGNh8g 8AsANpBBFxpOgUMjOCk+kNJXhjld1CgnuZLbU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.88.103 with SMTP id bf7mr3465220vdb.72.1329888773393; Tue, 21 Feb 2012 21:32:53 -0800 (PST) Sender: woohwankim@gmail.com Received: by 10.52.101.163 with HTTP; Tue, 21 Feb 2012 21:32:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 14:32:53 +0900 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 0IhvPqYegYfUryIaZI2qOdbTPnY Message-ID: From: Woo-Hwan Kim To: avt@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf307f3c04edcc8104b986dbda Cc: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com, Daesung Kwon , dongchan@ensec.re.kr, Je Hong Park , Jungkeon Lee Subject: [AVTCORE] Request for review: The ARIA Algorithm and Its Use with the Secure Real-time Transport Protocol(SRTP) X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 05:32:57 -0000 --20cf307f3c04edcc8104b986dbda Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 AVT experts, Let me make a request for review on the draft " The ARIA Algorithm and Its Use with the Secure Real-time Transport Protocol(SRTP) ". Any comments would be appreciated. http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nsri-avtcore-aria-srtp-00 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: 2012/2/22 Subject: New Version Notification for draft-nsri-avtcore-aria-srtp-00.txt To: whkim5@ensec.re.kr Cc: ds_kwon@ensec.re.kr, whkim5@ensec.re.kr, dongchan@ensec.re.kr, jhpark@ensec.re.kr, jklee@ensec.re.kr A new version of I-D, draft-nsri-avtcore-aria-srtp-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Woo-Hwan Kim and posted to the IETF repository. Filename: draft-nsri-avtcore-aria-srtp Revision: 00 Title: The ARIA Algorithm and Its Use with the Secure Real-time Transport Protocol(SRTP) Creation date: 2012-02-22 WG ID: Individual Submission Number of pages: 10 Abstract: This document describes the use of the ARIA block cipher algorithm within the Secure Real-time Transport Protocol (SRTP) for providing confidentiality for the Real-time Transport Protocol (RTP) traffic and for the control traffic for RTP, the Real-time Transport Control Protocol (RTCP). It details three modes of operation (CTR, CCM, GCM) and a SRTP Key Derivation Function for ARIA. The IETF Secretariat --20cf307f3c04edcc8104b986dbda Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
AVT experts,


Let me make a req= uest for review=A0
on the draft " The ARIA Algorithm and Its Use with the Secure Real-time Transport Protocol= (SRTP)=A0".


Any comments would= be appreciated.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
F= rom: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
D= ate: 2012/2/22
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-nsri-avtcore-aria-srtp-00.txtTo: whkim5@ensec.re.kr
Cc: <= a href=3D"mailto:ds_kwon@ensec.re.kr">ds_kwon@ensec.re.kr, whkim5@ensec.re.kr, dongchan@ensec.re.kr, jhpark@ensec.re.kr, jklee@ense= c.re.kr


A new version of I-D, draft-nsri-avtcore-aria-srtp-00.txt has been = successfully submitted by Woo-Hwan Kim and posted to the IETF repository.
Filename: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0draft-nsri-avtcore-aria-srtp
Revision: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A000
Title: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 The ARIA Algorithm and Its Use with the Secure R= eal-time Transport Protocol(SRTP)
Creation date: =A0 2012-02-22
WG ID: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Individual Submission
Number of pages: 10

Abstract:
=A0 This document describes the use of the ARIA block cipher algorithm
=A0 within the Secure Real-time Transport Protocol (SRTP) for providing =A0 confidentiality for the Real-time Transport Protocol (RTP) traffic
=A0 and for the control traffic for RTP, the Real-time Transport Control =A0 Protocol (RTCP). =A0It details three modes of operation (CTR, CCM, GCM= )
=A0 and a SRTP Key Derivation Function for ARIA.




The IETF Secretariat

--20cf307f3c04edcc8104b986dbda-- From mcgrew@cisco.com Wed Feb 22 07:20:29 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E269921F861C for ; Wed, 22 Feb 2012 07:20:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.13 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.13 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.869, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EqQu1pa1lVPg for ; Wed, 22 Feb 2012 07:20:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtv-iport-3.cisco.com (mtv-iport-3.cisco.com [173.36.130.14]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D0FA21F8623 for ; Wed, 22 Feb 2012 07:20:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=mcgrew@cisco.com; l=7752; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1329924024; x=1331133624; h=subject:mime-version:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=CTiQObACmIssNvkVzcodbfhysCMB4zctu4DPRGL562Y=; b=WDr0bHMlThCEDzEIy4aaZ3Q6/ObZ8kTGGj2+OUUDj0NAUAFwtF13oIZA NwWJ9LPQweXAZ9pGONIinBKToi0dVCeo3/CVCKCu6Yt+ljKabwHFviIXI WxcOFSnHoof3Xaibom2EtY2czC5T8+F7CBhbh6SOQwGcoS+df6AO05cDx A=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,464,1325462400"; d="scan'208";a="31864258" Received: from mtv-core-2.cisco.com ([171.68.58.7]) by mtv-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 22 Feb 2012 15:20:24 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-254-211.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-254-211.cisco.com [10.32.254.211]) by mtv-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q1MFKMre017049; Wed, 22 Feb 2012 15:20:23 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: David McGrew In-Reply-To: <4F3E1F27.6020108@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 10:20:22 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <4F3E1F27.6020108@ericsson.com> To: Magnus Westerlund X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) Cc: Flemming Andreasen , kai.fischer@siemens-enterprise.com, Dan Wing , IETF AVTCore WG Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Questions regarding EKT (draft-ietf-avt-srtp-ekt-03) X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 15:20:29 -0000 Many thanks for your review, Magnus. I'll follow up with the thread = that doesn't copy the list, then let's bring the conversation back to = the list. David On Feb 17, 2012, at 4:34 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > Authors, WG, >=20 > I have reviewed the EKT draft and have a number of high level comments > and questions about this draft. Please consider this as individual > input, not as WG chair. >=20 > I have done this review from the perspective of checking if two > different use cases are possible to realize using EKT. The two use = cases > are: >=20 > A) Centralized conferencing using a RTP transport translator. Example > would be 4 end-points establishing unicast traffic session to the > translator. On each of these DTLS-SRTP would be used for keying and = all > nodes support EKT. The goal is that the transport translator should be > able to forward all RTP and RTCP packets from one participant to all = the > other without any processing related to security (SRTP). I assume the > translator supports DTLS-SRTP and the signalling helps ensure that the > conference participants agree on a single KEK and SPI set. >=20 > B) A WEBRTC endpoint Alice (using DTLS-SRTP + EKT in this case) uses a > media gateway (MGW) (DTLS+SRTP and EKT support) to connect to a SDESC > keyed SRTP legacy end-point Bob. The goal is that the MGW should not > need to perform any SRTP or SRTCP operations beyond injecting Bob's = key > using EKT to Alice. This is basically the use case described in = Appendix > A in the draft. >=20 > =46rom my review I have the following issues with the current = definition > of EKT or at least the description. I do not rule out that I have = missed > something in the description. >=20 > 1) It appears that use case B above is not functional with EKT as > currently defined. My understanding is that the MGW will have to = modify > all RTP and RTCP packets as they pass the MGW. This as the presence of > the EKT authentication tag, in either form requires one to recalculate > the base authentication tag. This as it covers the keys and fields of > the EKT authentication tag, even in the abbreviated form where the > reserved and "0" abbreviated form indication bit is covered. Thus it = is > impossible for the MGW to perform a packet transformation by simply > stripping away the extra byte in the abbreviated form in the Alice to > Bob direction, remember that Bob is legacy and wants no EKT > authentication tags as it doesn't understand them. >=20 > Also in the other direction where the MGW needs to include EKT > information in the RTP/RTCP packets where it would like to indicate > Bob's key to Alice it needs to recompute all RTP and RTCP packets to > ensure that the authentication tag changes from the regular 80 bit = SHA-1 > HMAC to either the full or abbreviated EKT authentication tag = including > a different 80-bit SHA-1 HMAC tag. >=20 > This appears to be a design flaw. I think it is important that EKT can > be used with legacy and the MGW only needs to do basic insertion or > stripping operations of the packets to convert them between EKT and > regular SRTP versions of the authentication tag. >=20 > 2) If I understand correctly there are in fact three ways of EKT > operation in regards how to use the KEK and EKT where of 2 I think are > intentional. This is focused on use case A above. >=20 > i) Use a single KEK+SPI over all session participants, having the > signaling and the central conference server force the participants to > agree on the servers decided KEK and SPI information >=20 > ii) Have each participant agree with the server on a different = KEK+SPI, > then distribute each KEK and SPI to all the participants so that EKT > SRTP/SRTCP packets can go end-to-end between all participants. >=20 > iii) Have each participant agree with the server on a different = KEK+SPI, > then have the central node to modify the EKT messages to match the KEK > that particular participant has. This last one is only practical if = only > the SRTP/SRTCP messages that has a master key in them needs to be = modified. >=20 > I assume iii) is not intentional to use as it is sub-optimal. ii) = seems > to have one issue that is clearly insufficiently discussed in the = draft. > That is how the system ensures that all participants agree on = different > SPI values so that none is overlapping within the RTP session. For = both > i) and ii) I am missing discussion in the negotiation sections on the > details how the SPI value is negotiated and can be changed by the = party > representing the centralized conference to arrive at a set that are > unique. I also think this can result in some "clipping" cases as > somewhat discussed. >=20 > In addition the fact that one has two different modes of operation it = is > unclear which should be used by an end-point in a given session and > there is no signaling for this. In worst case the conference server > assumes that each participant will generate a KEK and use different > ones, while a participants implementation assumes that a single one = will > be used. So clarification of both implementation requirements of these > operation modes and the signaling necessary to agree on what is being = used. >=20 > 3) The draft discusses that one can use EKT authentication tags in = RTCP > only, RTP only or both. However, it appears there is no signaling to > negotiate which should be used. Is the goal that one uses the EKT > authentication tag always in both RTP and RTCP independent if one > actually is sending full EKT authentication tag only in RTCP? If that = is > not the intention I think the aspect of how one negotiates what > authentication format for RTP and RTCP needs to be clarified. >=20 > 4) Section 2.2.2: I am a bit confused over the process when using ISN. > The first one has to do with that one uses ISN in the replay = protection > part. That would mean that multiple SRTCP packets containing the same > EKT transported master key would be considered duplicates, despite the > actual RTCP information in it is not a duplicate. Why isn't the = regular > RTCP packet index or RTP sequence number used in the replay = protection? >=20 > Secondly, if I understand correctly in a SRTP packet that contains a > full EKT auth tag that has a RTP sequence number that is lower than = the > ISN (when re-keying) will still use the new key that is included in = the > KEK protected part for the packet protection (encryption and = integrity). > I find this strange behavior to use the new key prior to the ISN. It > also appears to have the effect that if one uses different EKT SPI to > protect the new key compared to the old key in use by this end-point = the > receivers that hasn't gotten this SPI+KEK can't decode this RTP/RTCP > packet despite this is prior to the rekeying point. That can't be the > intention as it creates an unclean key-change. >=20 >=20 > I do have more detailed comments but I will save those until I have > received answer on these to determine if they are worth writing up or > may become irrelevant due to changes. >=20 > Cheers >=20 > Magnus Westerlund >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Wed Feb 22 07:31:12 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B170121F86AF for ; Wed, 22 Feb 2012 07:31:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.402, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UIptKWimHC1L for ; Wed, 22 Feb 2012 07:31:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (mailgw9.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.57]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81EBF21F87BA for ; Wed, 22 Feb 2012 07:31:08 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb39-b7bf2ae0000069a1-e1-4f450a3b116a Received: from esessmw0191.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id C6.4F.27041.B3A054F4; Wed, 22 Feb 2012 16:31:07 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0191.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.85) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.213.0; Wed, 22 Feb 2012 16:31:06 +0100 Message-ID: <4F450A3A.7060906@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 16:31:06 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF AVTCore WG X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: [AVTCORE] Internet Draft check list and usage of ID-Nits tool X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 15:31:12 -0000 WG, This is intended to authors of WG Internet drafts. When a document is getting close to WG last call and in any later step it is important to have the document fulfill the ID Check list: http://www.ietf.org/id-info/checklist.html Authors do need to read the above reference. The items that can be checked by machine on this list are checked by the ID-Nits tool. http://tools.ietf.org/tools/idnits/ I recommend that one uses the verbose flag to get more detailed information about any issues. Please make it a habit to run the checks before submitting any new versions of IDs that are in the more mature stages of development. The tool is good at finding outdated references, missing or unused references and a number of other issues that is easy to forget to take care of when updating the document. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From tom.van_caenegem@alcatel-lucent.com Wed Feb 22 08:46:45 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7584221F866D for ; Wed, 22 Feb 2012 08:46:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.203 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.203 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.394, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_43=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_75=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, SARE_SUB_ENC_UTF8=0.152] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sUisn1FZCCgX for ; Wed, 22 Feb 2012 08:46:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from smail2.alcatel.fr (smail2.alcatel.fr [64.208.49.57]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB4F721F854B for ; Wed, 22 Feb 2012 08:46:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from FRMRSSXCHHUB03.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com (FRMRSSXCHHUB03.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com [135.120.45.63]) by smail2.alcatel.fr (8.14.3/8.14.3/ICT) with ESMTP id q1MGkQxO009869 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 22 Feb 2012 17:46:33 +0100 Received: from FRMRSSXCHMBSB1.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.39]) by FRMRSSXCHHUB03.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.63]) with mapi; Wed, 22 Feb 2012 17:46:32 +0100 From: "Van Caenegem, Tom (Tom)" To: Qin Wu , Magnus Westerlund Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 17:46:31 +0100 Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?W0FWVENPUkVdIOetlOWkjTogIFdHIGxhc3QgY2FsbCBmb3IgUlRDUCBFeHRl?= =?utf-8?B?bnNpb24gZm9yIFRoaXJkLXBhcnR5IExvc3MgUmVwb3J0IChkcmFmdC1pZXQ=?= =?utf-8?B?Zi1hdnRjb3JlLWZlZWRiYWNrLXN1cHJlc3Npb24tcnRwLTA5KQ==?= Thread-Index: AQHM1rl5ya7MC2Lh7UK63PhRg31z4pYktpAGgBoh0YCAAJv7d4AJ2eJQ Message-ID: References: <4F182C52.5010706@ericsson.com> <4F182D48.4040804@ericsson.com> <3374650BFFC7477E8B48193E1976DA4D@china.huawei.com> <4F3CBFDF.1050502@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: nl-NL, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: nl-NL, en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.69 on 155.132.188.80 Cc: "avt@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiAgV0cgbGFzdCBjYWxsIGZvciBSVENQIEV4?= =?utf-8?q?tension_for_Third-party_Loss_Report_=28draft-ietf-avtcore-feedb?= 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Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6109 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: base64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <4F182C52.5010706@ericsson.com> <4F182D48.4040804@ericsson.com> <3374650BFFC7477E8B48193E1976DA4D@china.huawei.com> <4F3CBFDF.1050502@ericsson.com> Cc: avt@ietf.org, draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp@tools.ietf.org Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiAgV0cgbGFzdCBjYWxsIGZvciBSVENQIEV4?= =?utf-8?q?tension_for_Third-party_Loss_Report_=28draft-ietf-avtcor?= =?utf-8?q?e-feedback-supression-rtp-09=29?= X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 06:54:41 -0000 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cy53ZXN0ZXJsdW5kQGVyaWNzc29uLmNvbQ0KPiAtLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tDQo+IA0KPiBfX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBBdWRpby9WaWRlbyBU cmFuc3BvcnQgQ29yZSBNYWludGVuYW5jZQ0KPiBhdnRAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cu aWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9hdnQNCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gQXVkaW8vVmlkZW8gVHJhbnNwb3J0IENvcmUgTWFp bnRlbmFuY2UNCj4gYXZ0QGlldGYub3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4v bGlzdGluZm8vYXZ0DQo+ From internet-drafts@ietf.org Wed Feb 22 23:04:31 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAC4A11E8089; Wed, 22 Feb 2012 23:04:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.581 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.581 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S8PldkpNFfwC; Wed, 22 Feb 2012 23:04:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1038821F85C4; Wed, 22 Feb 2012 23:04:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 3.64p2 Message-ID: <20120223070401.10307.34089.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 23:04:01 -0800 Cc: avt@ietf.org Subject: [AVTCORE] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-13.txt X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 07:04:31 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenanc= e Working Group of the IETF. Title : RTCP Extension for Third-party Loss Report Author(s) : Qin Wu Frank Xia Roni Even Filename : draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-13.txt Pages : 17 Date : 2012-02-22 In a large RTP session using the RTCP feedback mechanism defined in RFC 4585, a feedback target may experience transient overload if some event causes a large number of receivers to send feedback at once. This overload is usually avoided by ensuring that feedback reports are forwarded to all receivers, allowing them to avoid sending duplicate feedback reports. However, there are cases where it is not recommended to forward feedback reports, and this may allow feedback implosion. This memo discusses these cases and defines a new RTCP third-party loss report that can be used to inform receivers that the feedback target is aware of some loss event, allowing them to suppress feedback. Associated SDP signalling is also defined. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-= rtp-13.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-r= tp-13.txt From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Thu Feb 23 00:13:45 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C760F21F8546 for ; Thu, 23 Feb 2012 00:13:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.216 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.216 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.383, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8n-u6CsJd2kC for ; Thu, 23 Feb 2012 00:13:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (mailgw9.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.57]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D825421F8523 for ; Thu, 23 Feb 2012 00:13:34 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb39-b7bf2ae0000069a1-d9-4f45f52db9b6 Received: from esessmw0237.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id C7.57.27041.D25F54F4; Thu, 23 Feb 2012 09:13:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0237.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.91) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.213.0; Thu, 23 Feb 2012 09:12:52 +0100 Message-ID: <4F45F4DB.2010403@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 09:12:11 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: avt@ietf.org References: <20120223070401.10307.34089.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20120223070401.10307.34089.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.5 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------030601040304060400090906" X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-13.txt X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 08:13:45 -0000 --------------030601040304060400090906 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit WG, I have now requested publication of this document for publication as proposed standard. I have attached the writeup I have done. Cheers Magnus Westerlund On 2012-02-23 08:04, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance Working Group of the IETF. > > Title : RTCP Extension for Third-party Loss Report > Author(s) : Qin Wu > Frank Xia > Roni Even > Filename : draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-13.txt > Pages : 17 > Date : 2012-02-22 > > In a large RTP session using the RTCP feedback mechanism defined in > RFC 4585, a feedback target may experience transient overload if some > event causes a large number of receivers to send feedback at once. > This overload is usually avoided by ensuring that feedback reports > are forwarded to all receivers, allowing them to avoid sending > duplicate feedback reports. However, there are cases where it is not > recommended to forward feedback reports, and this may allow feedback > implosion. This memo discusses these cases and defines a new RTCP > third-party loss report that can be used to inform receivers that the > feedback target is aware of some loss event, allowing them to > suppress feedback. Associated SDP signalling is also defined. > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-13.txt > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-13.txt > > _______________________________________________ > Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance > avt@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt > -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 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ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 778D321F85EC for ; Thu, 23 Feb 2012 06:25:49 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb39-b7bf2ae0000069a1-cf-4f464c6cea2f Received: from esessmw0237.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 49.F0.27041.C6C464F4; Thu, 23 Feb 2012 15:25:48 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0237.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.91) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.213.0; Thu, 23 Feb 2012 15:25:47 +0100 Message-ID: <4F464C6B.3000006@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 15:25:47 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: avt@ietf.org References: <4f3e518e.e465340a.47a8.3fa7@mx.google.com> In-Reply-To: <4f3e518e.e465340a.47a8.3fa7@mx.google.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] WGLC on Encryption of Header Extensions in SRTP X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 14:25:50 -0000 Hi, (as individual) I done a review and found the following issues that I believe should be addressed prior to requesting publication of this document. I do support the publication of this document when the issues has been addressed. 1. Title: Encryption of Header Extensions in the Secure Real-Time Transport Protocol (SRTP) Contains spurious space between Secure and Real-Time. 2. Section 1 and ref-list: The client-mixer and mixer-client audio levels references need to be updated to the RFCs. Also the reference to the AES-GCM draft needs to be updated. 3. Section 3. For SRTP encryption transforms that operate by generating a keystream, a header keystream is generated for each packet containing an encrypted header, using the same encryption transform and Initialization Vector (IV) as is used for the SRTP payload, except that the SRTP encryption and salting keys k_e and k_s are replaced by the SRTP header encryption and header salting keys k_he and k_hs, respectively. I wished this section used; SHALL use the same encryption transform to further enforce and clarify this. This is of high importance both from security perspective and the avoidance of any new crypto suit parameters that would need to be retroactively fit to the key-managagement systems. 4. Section 3. Due to the requirement on any SRTP crypto suit that doesn't generate a keystream to specify how the header encryption transform is uniquly determined based on the selected crypto suit I do think this document may in fact have to update RFC 3711. That would mean the following additions to the draft. 1. Updates in front page header 2. Explicit mention it in introduction and header. 3. Add a section that makes clear what the additional requirements this document put on the crypto suite rules defined in RFC 3711. 5. Section 3. "... for each packet containing an encrypted header, ..." Is really singular form the right form here. As there might be one or more header extensions that are included in the given packet? For me "encrypted headers" seems more accurate. 6. Section 3. For those octets indicated in the encryption mask, the SRTP participant bitwise exclusive-ors the header extension with the keystream to produce the ciphertext version of the header extension. Although the above sentence is correct it appears to me a bit easy to misunderstand as it is not the straightforward method of doing it. To me you take the header mask and AND it with the header extension keystream generated for this packets IV. Then you take that masked keystream and XOR with the plaintext header extensions to create the cipher text. The below is missing one step in that process. Those octets not indicated in the encryption mask are left unmodified. Thus, conceptually, the encryption mask is logically ANDed with the keystream to produce a masked keystream. The sender and receiver MUST use the same encryption mask. The set of extension elements to be encrypted is communicated between the sender and the receiver using the signaling mechanisms described in Section 4. The MUST in the above also seems a bit strange. They should be the same if both the encryptor and the decryptor are equally configured. So I don't see how this is something that can be mandated to work, at least not without a specification part that says how this is ensured. 7. I wonder if there should be any mentioning that also non RFC 5285 header extensions can also not be protected. Along these lines shouldn't the 3.1 section example actually contain the first RFC 3550 header extension word including the keyword. Otherwise if one takes the RFC 3550 definition of header extension and apply the mask as outlined, your off-set with 4 bytes. 8. Section 4. So if I understand this specification correctly, the header extensions can only be encrypted by also encrypting the full RTP payload. The combination of encrypting a header extension but not the payload is not possible as the crypto algorithm for the encryption in that case would be NULL. Does this need to be pointed out? 9. Section 4. Shouldn't there be ABNF for the specific usage of the extension attribute that this document usages? What I can see the proposal will clearly fall into the allowed syntax by RFC 5285, however, shouldn't one clarify that extensionattributes = byte-string / enc-extensionattributes enc-extensionattributes = extensionname [SP extensionattributes] 10. Section 4.1: (Note that, as always, users of best- effort encryption MUST be cautious of bid-down attacks, and ensure, for example, that signaling is integrity-protected.) I think a reference to an explanation of bid-down attack would be good. Or alternatively some more words on the attack. I also think there needs to be discussion on what type of integrity protection you actually need to prevent that. And the answer there is that is depends on the threat model if it needs to be end-to-end or can be hop by hop. 11. Section 5: If a middlebox does not have access to the SRTP authentication keys, it has no way to verify the authenticity of unencrypted RTP header extension elements (or the unencrypted RTP header), even though it can monitor them. Therefore, such middleboxes MUST treat such headers as untrusted and potentially generated by an attacker. I am curious of the MUST here. It seems strange. If you are a middlebox and you don't have access to the security context for this stream. Why should the header extensions be treated differently than non integrity protected packets? They are equally vulnerable from an attack perspective. I think the warning is good, but is the MUST really warranted? 12. Section A. As a warning. I haven't checked these values. Has anyone beyond the author sat down and made the calculations? Cheers Magnus On 2012-02-17 14:09, Roni Even wrote: > Hi, > > I would like to start a WGLC on Encryption of Header Extensions in the > Secure Real-Time Transport Protocol (SRTP) in > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-avtcore-srtp-encrypted-header-ext-01 > > > > This is the abstract of the draft: > > > > "The Secure Real-Time Transport Protocol (SRTP) provides authentication, but not encryption, of the headers of Real-Time Transport Protocol (RTP) packets. However, RTP header extensions may carry sensitive information for which participants in multimedia sessions want confidentiality. This document provides a mechanism, extending the mechanisms of SRTP, to selectively encrypt RTP header extensions in SRTP." > > > > > > Please send any comments by March 8^th . > > > > Thanks > > Roni Even > > > > > -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From ron.even.tlv@gmail.com Thu Feb 23 15:22:35 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02C1721F88D4 for ; Thu, 23 Feb 2012 15:22:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.373 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.373 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.225, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Plwl-Cg-wSml for ; Thu, 23 Feb 2012 15:22:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ee0-f44.google.com (mail-ee0-f44.google.com [74.125.83.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2495B21F88D2 for ; Thu, 23 Feb 2012 15:22:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by eekc41 with SMTP id c41so724120eek.31 for ; Thu, 23 Feb 2012 15:22:33 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of ron.even.tlv@gmail.com designates 10.14.183.130 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.14.183.130; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of ron.even.tlv@gmail.com designates 10.14.183.130 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=ron.even.tlv@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=ron.even.tlv@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.14.183.130]) by 10.14.183.130 with SMTP id q2mr1965054eem.101.1330039353437 (num_hops = 1); Thu, 23 Feb 2012 15:22:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type:x-mailer :thread-index:content-language; bh=4c5gvjpsl8m+S0fXBgG0qnuU8UyRcTTTVsWU4CgS8SQ=; b=osiPBMQCmgvu4SjNvwlYmrQvVC2XC1Kd4AP2oQVwcrNwdAUOeZHj9gwUMJCDhoQV6N IZ+e8rzgMdVhYFEHRK9RYMA1i+vUC7rn83HCK9ffxaabYXm6xt0yjnyGbzart9fYi8MW IiZyJRUocU09CO2GFZnn7CpOr2DV7146c+9fc= Received: by 10.14.183.130 with SMTP id q2mr1511850eem.101.1330039353301; Thu, 23 Feb 2012 15:22:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from windows8d787f9 ([109.67.208.29]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y14sm10828471eef.10.2012.02.23.15.22.31 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 23 Feb 2012 15:22:32 -0800 (PST) From: "Roni Even" To: Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 01:22:05 +0200 Message-ID: <4f46ca38.0e640e0a.4547.ffff97fe@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_021C_01CCF292.B92D6A10" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AczygfQAkPULQDL6SpubFjAyj8OOPg== Content-Language: en-us Subject: [AVTCORE] AVTcore session in Paris X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 23:22:35 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_021C_01CCF292.B92D6A10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, The preliminary agenda for the Paris meeting is in https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/83/agenda.html The AVTcore session is scheduled for Monday afternoon between 13:00 and 16:10 (two slots) Note that this is not the final agenda and may change. The final agenda will be published on March 2nd Roni Even AVTcore co-chair ------=_NextPart_000_021C_01CCF292.B92D6A10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

The preliminary = agenda for the Paris meeting is in https://data= tracker.ietf.org/meeting/83/agenda.html

The AVTcore session is scheduled for Monday afternoon = between 13:00 and 16:10 (two slots)

Note that this is not the final agenda and may change. =

The final agenda will be published = on March 2nd

Roni = Even

AVTcore = co-chair

------=_NextPart_000_021C_01CCF292.B92D6A10-- From internet-drafts@ietf.org Fri Feb 24 00:54:36 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 665CE21F8555; Fri, 24 Feb 2012 00:54:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.586 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.586 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.013, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FcYYVf0J7QGj; Fri, 24 Feb 2012 00:54:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A05F21F8548; Fri, 24 Feb 2012 00:54:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 3.64p2 Message-ID: <20120224085435.28902.52693.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 00:54:35 -0800 Cc: avt@ietf.org Subject: [AVTCORE] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtcore-monarch-10.txt X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 08:54:36 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenanc= e Working Group of the IETF. Title : Monitoring Architecture for RTP Author(s) : Qin Wu Geoff Hunt Philip Arden Filename : draft-ietf-avtcore-monarch-10.txt Pages : 28 Date : 2012-02-24 This memo proposes an architecture for extending RTP Control Protocol (RTCP) with a new RTCP Extended Reports (XR) (RFC3611) block type to report new metrics regarding media transmission or reception quality, following RTCP guideline established in RFC5968. This memo suggests that a new block should contain a single metric or a small number of metrics relevant to a single parameter of interest or concern, rather than containing a number of metrics which attempt to provide full coverage of all those parameters of concern to a specific application. Applications may then "mix and match" to create a set of blocks which covers their set of concerns. Where possible, a specific block should be designed to be re-usable across more than one application, for example, for all of voice, streaming audio and video. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtcore-monarch-10.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtcore-monarch-10.txt From bill.wu@huawei.com Fri Feb 24 01:14:56 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF41C21F8729 for ; Fri, 24 Feb 2012 01:14:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.893 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.893 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.532, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2aDY9-HrQYOk for ; Fri, 24 Feb 2012 01:14:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (szxga03-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F337321F862B for ; Fri, 24 Feb 2012 01:14:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LZW007M349ZP8@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for avt@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Feb 2012 17:13:11 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LZW00DXE49YAG@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for avt@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Feb 2012 17:13:10 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxeml201-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA) with ESMTP id AHJ69068; Fri, 24 Feb 2012 17:13:10 +0800 Received: from SZXEML423-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.162) by szxeml201-edg.china.huawei.com 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X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.382 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.216, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PYjHPrum5SQN for ; Fri, 24 Feb 2012 09:44:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ey0-f172.google.com (mail-ey0-f172.google.com [209.85.215.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26C3721F888F for ; Fri, 24 Feb 2012 09:44:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by eaal12 with SMTP id l12so1063202eaa.31 for ; Fri, 24 Feb 2012 09:44:08 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of ron.even.tlv@gmail.com designates 10.14.95.8 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.14.95.8; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of ron.even.tlv@gmail.com designates 10.14.95.8 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=ron.even.tlv@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=ron.even.tlv@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.14.95.8]) by 10.14.95.8 with SMTP id o8mr2044208eef.111.1330105448249 (num_hops = 1); Fri, 24 Feb 2012 09:44:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type :x-mailer:thread-index:content-language; bh=QqnW+iy/W099geBtB7psTsJrvvCP1IXVl1/yiF+bziU=; b=cUpCKXqP3W2yLVVy23O7O8yYzU/EjK6HAffl4Tv/OsBaSj1UshZr4pXEilG01CtdxG AuYxCxqqiQOlW1FVR90r1eL6crmZ9zVw3ic7Xx1GZGcecAJN7MkbxGIjraD0X4b/P+C9 1vk3aiJp2+bEh+K4MJnmSFmdN2nZeFs39n7Mg= Received: by 10.14.95.8 with SMTP id o8mr1535937eef.111.1330105448141; Fri, 24 Feb 2012 09:44:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from windows8d787f9 ([109.67.208.29]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z47sm20424722eeh.9.2012.02.24.09.44.06 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 24 Feb 2012 09:44:07 -0800 (PST) From: "Roni Even" To: Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 19:43:38 +0200 Message-ID: <4f47cc67.c77d0e0a.7c07.ffffe4bb@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0283_01CCF32C.9C457510" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AczzG9bp+wCyRSDXQzyeRwHrCDedoA== Content-Language: en-us Cc: 'Magnus Westerlund' Subject: [AVTCORE] avtcore - session for IETF 83 - requests for agenda time. X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 17:44:10 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0283_01CCF32C.9C457510 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, This is the schedule for AVTcore. Note that the agenda is not final and can change. Final meeting agenda will be published on March 2nd. MONDAY, March 26, 2012 1300-1500 Afternoon Session I 252B RAI avtcore Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance WG 1510-1610 Afternoon Session II 252B RAI avtcore Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance WG If you wish to have agenda time at the upcoming meeting in Paris regarding AVTcore work, please send an agenda request to the AVTcore chairs. We are trying to prepare the agenda early and not wait for the last minute. Payload WG is not meeting in Paris and we may allocate some time to resolve open issues regarding payload drafts time permitting. Note the document submission deadline are March 5th for initial document (00 drafts) and March 12th is the final submission date. Roni Even AVTcore co-chair ------=_NextPart_000_0283_01CCF32C.9C457510 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 
Hi,
This is =
the schedule for AVTcore.  Note that the agenda is not final and =
can change. Final meeting agenda will be published on March =
2nd.
 =

MONDAY, =
March 26, 2012

 

1300-1500  Afternoon Session I

252B          = ;  =             &= nbsp;      RAI =             = avtcore     =             &= nbsp;       Audio/Video Transport Core = Maintenance WG

 

1510-1610  Afternoon Session II

252B          = ;  =             &= nbsp;      RAI =             = avtcore     =             &= nbsp;       Audio/Video Transport Core = Maintenance WG

 

 

If you = wish to have agenda time at the upcoming meeting in Paris regarding = AVTcore work, please send an agenda request to the AVTcore chairs. We = are trying to prepare the agenda early and not wait for the last = minute.

 =

Payload WG = is not meeting in Paris and we may allocate some time to resolve open = issues regarding payload drafts time permitting. =

 =

Note the = document submission deadline are March 5th  for initial = document (00 drafts) and March 12th is the final submission = date.

 =

Roni = Even

AVTcore = co-chair

 =

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0283_01CCF32C.9C457510-- From ron.even.tlv@gmail.com Sat Feb 25 03:23:14 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BF1C21F85C3 for ; Sat, 25 Feb 2012 03:23:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.391 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.391 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.208, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gWeMlGxe0vJC for ; Sat, 25 Feb 2012 03:23:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ey0-f172.google.com (mail-ey0-f172.google.com [209.85.215.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D414F21F85B4 for ; Sat, 25 Feb 2012 03:23:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by eaal12 with SMTP id l12so1272037eaa.31 for ; Sat, 25 Feb 2012 03:23:12 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of ron.even.tlv@gmail.com designates 10.14.33.218 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.14.33.218; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of ron.even.tlv@gmail.com designates 10.14.33.218 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=ron.even.tlv@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=ron.even.tlv@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.14.33.218]) by 10.14.33.218 with SMTP id q66mr3553318eea.67.1330168992080 (num_hops = 1); Sat, 25 Feb 2012 03:23:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:thread-index :content-language; bh=09F1KAkyiPmnJ+YDR5UWpv8OkTy4KvxQXyz+UjYo5fc=; b=dzKQe5c4Afdu270HKKYHAzF/eYbLwMsYY0IFdnufjkAdvmLuyqCHR5JboN/jwtAtgZ CquYVqp9K/zqCmdIT5PBwcfpHPnlHOrJECR5qxC5RBFbChiNzXqZ4h3q3DdnuBMc7o+5 XNyibGqzK4X/6ymL3EW7fgttmjZgTVoM0DlD0= Received: by 10.14.33.218 with SMTP id q66mr2680429eea.67.1330168991907; Sat, 25 Feb 2012 03:23:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from windows8d787f9 ([109.67.208.29]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z47sm30227614eeh.9.2012.02.25.03.23.09 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 25 Feb 2012 03:23:10 -0800 (PST) From: "Roni Even" To: "'Magnus Westerlund'" , "'IETF AVTCore WG'" References: <4F3BB9C2.3020509@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <4F3BB9C2.3020509@ericsson.com> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 13:22:41 +0200 Message-ID: <4f48c49e.c77d0e0a.7c07.0a39@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Aczr6cfdM19DKAdgStae9fIoNB/wZAHxVpUg Content-Language: en-us Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Comments on draft-ietf-avtcore-monarch-09 X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 11:23:14 -0000 Hi Magnus, As far as I remember section 3 was written to provide general = information about the usage of the monitoring reports and not to address specific solutions for conveying the information. I see no problem with = mentioning the RTP MIB but note that there was a milestone in the past to update it = and there was no interest in doing it. I think that the updated -10 version provides enough information.=20 Roni Even > -----Original Message----- > From: avt-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:avt-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Magnus Westerlund > Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 3:57 PM > To: IETF AVTCore WG > Subject: [AVTCORE] Comments on draft-ietf-avtcore-monarch-09 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > As a WG chair I got the request to start a WG last call on this > document. I have been a bit slow to get to this, but when I looked at > the document before starting the WG last call I think the document > isn't really ready for a WG last call. Thus instead I request that the > WG helps develop the document to be ready for WG last call. >=20 > The main issue I see with this document is focused on section 3 which > is intended to provide an overview of the monitoring architecture for > RTP. > I see a number of issues with this section and especially figure 1. >=20 > 1. Figure one fails to place third party monitor in relation to any of > the packet flows. I think they belong on the RTP/RTCP paths between = the > sender, intermediate and the receiver. >=20 > 2. I think the document needs to discuss a bit about how the > information flows from the different nodes to the management systems. > There is an arrow 5 from the RTP sender to the management system. = First > of all I think this arrow should be separated from the other 5. In > addition I think there should exist arrows from the Third party > monitor, the monitor in the intermediate and receiver directly to the > management systems. And these arrows could be RTCP information being > forward in real-time. However, they could also be other solutions. >=20 > 3. In general I think 3.1 should discuss what exist already for > monitoring which there is no discussion. Like the RTP MIB. I can also > see other solutions like using IPfix to capture a packet flow and then > process using an RTP and RTCP receiver. >=20 > 4. The document argues for RTCP XR based monitoring, but can you = please > provide a clear indication of what the benefits are. >=20 > Below is a number of issues I found >=20 > 5. Title: "Monitoring Architectures for RTP" is the plural in > architectures intentional? If, you better have the document live up to > that. The abstract doesn't appear to match that either. >=20 > 6. Section 1. > "As more users and subscribers rely on real time application > services, > uncertainties in the performance and availability of these services > are driving the need to support new standard methods for gathering > performance metrics from RTP applications." >=20 > What users and subscribers are you discussing above? The ones using = RTP > to build services or the actual user of the service using RTP? >=20 > 7. Section 1, These rapidly emerging > standards, such as RTCP XR [RFC3611] >=20 > Please expand abrivetations on first usage. And in this case I think > the correct title should be used prior to the reference ... such as > "RTP Control Protocol Extended Reports (RTCP XR)" [RFC3611] ... >=20 > 8. Section 1. " Quality of Experience (QoE)." Can you please include > some reference that explains the concept of QoE? >=20 > 9. Section 1: "Since different applications layered on RTP may have > some monitoring requirements in common, therefore these metrics > should be satisfied by a common design." >=20 > The above sentence needs to be reformulated. >=20 > 10. Section 2: Section title doesn't match content. >=20 > 11. Section 2: One example of such metrics is the QoE Metric > specified in QoE metric reporting Block [MQ]. >=20 > I don't think that reference is a good example. The reference defines > how to transport and identify a large number of application level > metrics in RTCP XR, rather than being an example of a metric. >=20 > 12. Section 2: > Composed metrics >=20 > Metrics that are calculated based on direct metric or = combination > of direct metric and derived metrics. >=20 > What is an derived metric? Appears to be an reference without an > explanation. >=20 > 13. Section 2: > Interval metrics >=20 > It is referred to as the metrics of which the reported values > apply to the most recent measurement interval duration between > successive metrics reports >=20 > Is "interval duration" actually good English? To me the duration of an > interval is the actual interval. >=20 > 14. Section 2: > Sampled metrics >=20 > It is referred to as the metrics of which the reported values > only > apply to the value of a continuously measured or calculated that > has been sampled at end of the interval. >=20 > Doesn't the above exclude metrics measured at give instance. Or is = that > what "sampled at end of the interval" means? But then it isn't = actually > an interval, is it? >=20 > 15. Section 3.1: > According to the definition of > monitor in the RTP Protocol [RFC3550], the end system that source > RTP > streams, an intermediate-system that forwards RTP packets to End- > devices or a third party that does not participate in the RTP > session > (i.e., the third party monitor depicted in figure 1) can be > envisioned to act as the Monitor within the RTP monitoring > architecture. >=20 > Shouldn't the RTP receiver be included in the above? >=20 > 16. Section 3.1: When considering the monitoring architecture, I think > it is important to remember that we have topologies like the SSM, = where > few sources are potentially distributed to many receivers and where > feedback is aggregated in feedback targets for potential processing = and > filtering back upstream. >=20 > 17. Section 3.2: > o RTCP NACK is used to provide feedback on the RTP sequence number > of the lost packets [RFC4585]. >=20 > In this case I would be a bit careful. Because the sequence numbers > reported on in NACK may in fact be a subset of all lost packets. > Already the media stream receiver creating NACK requests may in fact > filter on which sequence number is reported. There was a proposal for = a > informative block (draft-ietf-avt-rtp-selret-05.txt) that allowed for > this type of information. There is other cases where a receiver will = be > able to determine that it doesn't need to ask for some lost packets. >=20 > 18. Section 3.3: > For instance, application level metrics for QoE > related performance parameters are usually measured at the user > device in the home network. >=20 > I think you need to be careful with "usually" here. There is a lot of > hidden assumptions going into this sentence. I would recommend that = one > attempts to be more objective and less assuming in the description. > Also there is a question what definition you have of a given location. > Like the home network which might look significant different depending > on where and whos network you look at. >=20 > 19. Section 4: > o Using large block. >=20 > I think "large" is a bad term, when you in reality are talking about > compound or aggregated metrics blocks. I would suggest picking some > other term and ensure that "large" isn't used in this meaning. >=20 > 20. Section 4: > "It may be also fixed across multiple RTP sessions from > the same source. " >=20 > I think the above is missing "at the same time". >=20 > 21. Section 5.1: > To avoid this pitfall, this memo proposes the use of small RTCP XR > metrics blocks each containing a very small number of individual > metrics characterizing only one parameter of interest to an > application running over RTP. >=20 > This one is similar with 19. Instead of small, maybe single metric or > something like this. >=20 > 22. Section 5.2: > non- RTP-based / non-RTP-based >=20 > 23. Section 5.3: > This memo proposes to > define a new XR Block that will be used to convey the common time > period and the number of packets sent during this period [MI]. >=20 > "this memo" is reference the monarch document no the MI, which I think > is the intention. >=20 > 24. Section 5.3: > If > the measurement interval for a metric is different from the RTCP > reporting interval, then this measurement duration in the [MI] > SHOULD > be used to specify the interval. >=20 > New RTCP XR metric blocks that rely > on the Measurement information block [MI] MUST specify the response > in case the new RTCP XR metric block is received without an > associated measurement information block; >=20 > Normative statements? in a informative draft. Is the intention to = quote > the drafts text, then please make it a quote. >=20 > 25. Section 6. > This implies the creation of a subsidiary namespace to > enumerate the PDV metrics which may be transported by this block, = as > discussed further in [PDV] . >=20 > I would like to note that this assume a certain simularity in metric > structure that allows the different metrics values to be carried in = the > same basic structure. >=20 > 26. I have also noted a number of cases where the "." is not in the > appropriate place, often additional space before the ".". >=20 > Cheers >=20 > Magnus Westerlund >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance > avt@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt From ietf-ipr@ietf.org Fri Feb 24 09:41:57 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 521E421F888E; Fri, 24 Feb 2012 09:41:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.39 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.39 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.209, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wFoFiPsLGMYZ; Fri, 24 Feb 2012 09:41:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B31321F87C8; Fri, 24 Feb 2012 09:41:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: IETF Secretariat To: billvs@cisco.com, abegen@cisco.com, zeev.vax@magnumsemi.com, Tom.Van_Caenegem@alcatel-lucent.be, X-Test-IDTracker: no Message-ID: <20120224174156.31185.90999.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 09:41:56 -0800 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 13:51:45 -0800 Cc: avt@ietf.org, ipr-announce@ietf.org Subject: [AVTCORE] IPR Disclosure: Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd's Statement about IPR related to RFC 6285 X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 17:41:57 -0000 Dear Bill Ver Steeg, Ali Begen, Tom Van Caenegem, Zeev Vax: An IPR disclosure that pertains to your RFC entitled "Unicast-Based Rapid Acquisition of Multicast RTP Sessions" (RFC6285) was submitted to the IETF Secretariat on 2012-02-24 and has been posted on the "IETF Page of Intellec= tual Property Rights Disclosures" (https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1689/). The = title of the IPR disclosure is "Huawei Technologies Co.,Ltd's Statement about IPR related to RFC 6285.""); The IETF Secretariat From christer.holmberg@ericsson.com Sun Feb 26 00:21:15 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E64221F859B for ; Sun, 26 Feb 2012 00:21:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.145 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.145 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.454, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iTfVeMfFYEYE for ; Sun, 26 Feb 2012 00:21:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw10.se.ericsson.net (mailgw10.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9596821F858A for ; Sun, 26 Feb 2012 00:21:13 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3d-b7bb7ae0000007b2-f8-4f49eb783490 Received: from esessmw0237.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw10.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 16.B2.01970.87BE94F4; Sun, 26 Feb 2012 09:21:12 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSCMS0356.eemea.ericsson.se ([169.254.1.31]) by esessmw0237.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.115.90]) with mapi; Sun, 26 Feb 2012 09:21:12 +0100 From: Christer Holmberg To: "avt@ietf.org" Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 09:20:48 +0100 Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation-00.txt Thread-Index: AczywlP2evfTkWzBSNiYTWIDPD9D5ABnTevK Message-ID: <7F2072F1E0DE894DA4B517B93C6A05852C3F48C5E3@ESESSCMS0356.eemea.ericsson.se> References: <20120224070144.20140.13888.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20120224070144.20140.13888.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: [AVTCORE] FW: [MMUSIC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation-00.txt X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 08:21:15 -0000 FYI, A milestone for BUNDLE has been created in MMUSIC, and the first draft-ietf= version of the draft has been submitted. Regards, Christer ________________________________________ From: mmusic-bounces@ietf.org [mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of intern= et-drafts@ietf.org [internet-drafts@ietf.org] Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 9:01 AM To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: mmusic@ietf.org Subject: [MMUSIC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation-00.t= xt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the Multiparty Multimedia Session Control= Working Group of the IETF. Title : Multiplexing Negotiation Using Session Descriptio= n Protocol (SDP) Port Numbers Author(s) : Christer Holmberg Harald Tveit Alvestrand Filename : draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation-00.txt Pages : 11 Date : 2012-02-23 This specification defines a new SDP Grouping Framework SDP grouping framework extension, "BUNDLE", that can be used with the Session Description Protocol (SDP) Offer/Answer mechanism to negotiate the usage of bundled media, which refers to the usage of a single 5-tuple for media associated with multiple SDP media descriptions ("m=3D" lines). A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiatio= n-00.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation= -00.txt _______________________________________________ mmusic mailing list mmusic@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic From ron.even.tlv@gmail.com Sun Feb 26 06:56:57 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A62821F85F8 for ; Sun, 26 Feb 2012 06:56:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.200, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r3Wdeb6bTxbx for ; Sun, 26 Feb 2012 06:56:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ee0-f44.google.com (mail-ee0-f44.google.com [74.125.83.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A5CC21F84A6 for ; Sun, 26 Feb 2012 06:56:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by eeke51 with SMTP id e51so466150eek.31 for ; Sun, 26 Feb 2012 06:56:47 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of ron.even.tlv@gmail.com designates 10.213.3.155 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.213.3.155; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of ron.even.tlv@gmail.com designates 10.213.3.155 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=ron.even.tlv@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=ron.even.tlv@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.213.3.155]) by 10.213.3.155 with SMTP id 27mr2536944ebn.25.1330268207636 (num_hops = 1); Sun, 26 Feb 2012 06:56:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:thread-index :content-language; bh=W/5dLwrdrqDNlofXGZdd6xrtCtOwfpmpkBjO6juLT3M=; b=HCxW5TJExfT3UvpFvYDi2Py6atkOmhn9MmQibNp1+OcX8niiPD4AbrAOTnJYb/DVo5 3WMlsBrm6pfuQ1Phd2MeBqpLBU7sgFU178cIy3JQcl4jfRKQ1edzzfYJTpgmFtU6+JuB ftJhe24XHEawCh19CoCyp2WO6VYO+s4ySS4MQ= Received: by 10.213.3.155 with SMTP id 27mr1904441ebn.25.1330268207478; Sun, 26 Feb 2012 06:56:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from windows8d787f9 ([109.67.208.29]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y14sm45922437eef.10.2012.02.26.06.56.44 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 26 Feb 2012 06:56:45 -0800 (PST) From: "Roni Even" To: "'Magnus Westerlund'" , References: <4f3e518e.e465340a.47a8.3fa7@mx.google.com> <4F464C6B.3000006@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <4F464C6B.3000006@ericsson.com> Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 16:56:12 +0200 Message-ID: <4f4a482d.0e640e0a.4547.169a@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AczyNxI8e9Ui9HfYQw6iPNKikdlHyQCXywCA Content-Language: en-us Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] WGLC on Encryption of Header Extensions in SRTP X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 14:56:57 -0000 Hi, I read the draft and have no further comments. I agree with Magnus = comments Roni Even As individual > -----Original Message----- > From: avt-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:avt-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Magnus Westerlund > Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 4:26 PM > To: avt@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] WGLC on Encryption of Header Extensions in SRTP >=20 > Hi, > (as individual) >=20 > I done a review and found the following issues that I believe should = be > addressed prior to requesting publication of this document. I do > support the publication of this document when the issues has been > addressed. >=20 >=20 > 1. Title: >=20 > Encryption of Header Extensions in the Secure Real-Time Transport > Protocol (SRTP) >=20 > Contains spurious space between Secure and Real-Time. >=20 > 2. Section 1 and ref-list: > The client-mixer and mixer-client audio levels references need to be > updated to the RFCs. Also the reference to the AES-GCM draft needs to > be updated. >=20 > 3. Section 3. > For SRTP encryption transforms that operate by generating a > keystream, a header keystream is generated for each packet > containing > an encrypted header, using the same encryption transform and > Initialization Vector (IV) as is used for the SRTP payload, except > that the SRTP encryption and salting keys k_e and k_s are replaced > by > the SRTP header encryption and header salting keys k_he and k_hs, > respectively. >=20 > I wished this section used; SHALL use the same encryption transform to > further enforce and clarify this. This is of high importance both from > security perspective and the avoidance of any new crypto suit > parameters that would need to be retroactively fit to the key- > managagement systems. >=20 > 4. Section 3. >=20 > Due to the requirement on any SRTP crypto suit that doesn't generate a > keystream to specify how the header encryption transform is uniquly > determined based on the selected crypto suit I do think this document > may in fact have to update RFC 3711. >=20 > That would mean the following additions to the draft. >=20 > 1. Updates in front page header > 2. Explicit mention it in introduction and header. > 3. Add a section that makes clear what the additional requirements = this > document put on the crypto suite rules defined in RFC 3711. >=20 > 5. Section 3. > "... for each packet containing > an encrypted header, ..." >=20 > Is really singular form the right form here. As there might be one or > more header extensions that are included in the given packet? For me > "encrypted headers" seems more accurate. >=20 > 6. Section 3. > For those octets indicated in the encryption mask, the SRTP > participant bitwise exclusive-ors the header extension with the > keystream to produce the ciphertext version of the header = extension. >=20 > Although the above sentence is correct it appears to me a bit easy to > misunderstand as it is not the straightforward method of doing it. To > me you take the header mask and AND it with the header extension > keystream generated for this packets IV. Then you take that masked > keystream and XOR with the plaintext header extensions to create the > cipher text. The below is missing one step in that process. >=20 > Those octets not indicated in the encryption mask are left > unmodified. Thus, conceptually, the encryption mask is logically > ANDed with the keystream to produce a masked keystream. The sender > and receiver MUST use the same encryption mask. The set of > extension > elements to be encrypted is communicated between the sender and the > receiver using the signaling mechanisms described in Section 4. >=20 > The MUST in the above also seems a bit strange. They should be the = same > if both the encryptor and the decryptor are equally configured. So I > don't see how this is something that can be mandated to work, at least > not without a specification part that says how this is ensured. >=20 > 7. I wonder if there should be any mentioning that also non RFC 5285 > header extensions can also not be protected. Along these lines > shouldn't the 3.1 section example actually contain the first RFC 3550 > header extension word including the keyword. Otherwise if one takes = the > RFC > 3550 definition of header extension and apply the mask as outlined, > your off-set with 4 bytes. >=20 > 8. Section 4. >=20 > So if I understand this specification correctly, the header extensions > can only be encrypted by also encrypting the full RTP payload. The > combination of encrypting a header extension but not the payload is = not > possible as the crypto algorithm for the encryption in that case would > be NULL. Does this need to be pointed out? >=20 > 9. Section 4. > Shouldn't there be ABNF for the specific usage of the extension > attribute that this document usages? >=20 > What I can see the proposal will clearly fall into the allowed syntax > by RFC 5285, however, shouldn't one clarify that >=20 > extensionattributes =3D byte-string > / enc-extensionattributes >=20 > enc-extensionattributes =3D extensionname [SP extensionattributes] >=20 > 10. Section 4.1: > (Note that, as always, users of best- > effort encryption MUST be cautious of bid-down attacks, and ensure, > for example, that signaling is integrity-protected.) >=20 > I think a reference to an explanation of bid-down attack would be = good. > Or alternatively some more words on the attack. I also think there > needs to be discussion on what type of integrity protection you > actually need to prevent that. And the answer there is that is depends > on the threat model if it needs to be end-to-end or can be hop by hop. >=20 > 11. Section 5: > If a middlebox does not have access to the SRTP authentication = keys, > it has no way to verify the authenticity of unencrypted RTP header > extension elements (or the unencrypted RTP header), even though it > can monitor them. Therefore, such middleboxes MUST treat such > headers as untrusted and potentially generated by an attacker. >=20 > I am curious of the MUST here. It seems strange. If you are a = middlebox > and you don't have access to the security context for this stream. Why > should the header extensions be treated differently than non integrity > protected packets? They are equally vulnerable from an attack > perspective. I think the warning is good, but is the MUST really > warranted? >=20 > 12. Section A. >=20 > As a warning. I haven't checked these values. Has anyone beyond the > author sat down and made the calculations? >=20 > Cheers >=20 > Magnus >=20 >=20 > On 2012-02-17 14:09, Roni Even wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I would like to start a WGLC on Encryption of Header Extensions in > > the Secure Real-Time Transport Protocol (SRTP) in > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-avtcore-srtp-encrypted-header- > ex > > t-01 > > > > > > > > This is the abstract of the draft: > > > > > > > > "The Secure Real-Time Transport Protocol (SRTP) provides > authentication, but not encryption, of the headers of Real-Time > Transport Protocol (RTP) packets. However, RTP header extensions may > carry sensitive information for which participants in multimedia > sessions want confidentiality. This document provides a mechanism, > extending the mechanisms of SRTP, to selectively encrypt RTP header > extensions in SRTP." > > > > > > > > > > > > Please send any comments by March 8^th . > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > Roni Even > > > > > > > > > > >=20 >=20 > -- >=20 > Magnus Westerlund >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance > avt@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt From thomas.schierl@hhi.fraunhofer.de Mon Feb 27 00:34:43 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DFA621F8469; Mon, 27 Feb 2012 00:34:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.8 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.8 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HELO_MISMATCH_DE=1.448, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jyiLCsKMfwYh; Mon, 27 Feb 2012 00:34:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw.hhi.fraunhofer.de (mail.HHI.FRAUNHOFER.DE [193.174.67.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7BAA21F8467; Mon, 27 Feb 2012 00:34:41 -0800 (PST) X-IMSS-DKIM-Authentication-Result: mailgw.hhi.fraunhofer.de; sigcount=0 Received: from [10.2.5.79] (unknown [95.215.121.199]) by mailgw.hhi.fraunhofer.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 878C9186803A; Mon, 27 Feb 2012 09:34:39 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4F4B401F.9080609@hhi.fraunhofer.de> Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 09:34:39 +0100 From: Thomas Schierl Organization: Fraunhofer-Institut fuer Nachrichtentechnik Heinrich-Hertz-Institut User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: payload@ietf.org References: <20120227082031.20300.44145.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20120227082031.20300.44145.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <20120227082031.20300.44145.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------050509010900080001050308" X-alterMIME: Yes Cc: Stephan Wenger , Miska Hannuksela , avt@ietf.org Subject: [AVTCORE] RTP Payload Format for High Efficiency Video Coding X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 08:34:43 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050509010900080001050308 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear all, We just submitted the initial draft of the RTP payload format for HEVC. A presentation is planned for the Paris meeting. Best regards, Thomas Dr.-Ing. Thomas Schierl Head of Multimedia Communications Group Image Processing Department thomas.schierl@hhi.fraunhofer.de Tel. +49 30 31002-227 Fax +49 30 31002-190 Skype thomas.schierl Fraunhofer HHI - Heinrich Hertz Institute Einsteinufer 37, 10587 Berlin, Germany http://www.hhi.fraunhofer.de/ip/mc -------- Original Message -------- Subject: I-D Action: draft-schierl-payload-rtp-h265-00.txt Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 00:20:31 -0800 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : RTP Payload Format for High Efficiency Video Coding Author(s) : Thomas Schierl Stephan Wenger Ye-Kui Wang Miska M. Hannuksela Filename : draft-schierl-payload-rtp-h265-00.txt Pages : 43 Date : 2012-02-27 This memo describes an RTP payload format for High Efficiency Video Coding (HEVC) [HEVC], which is currently being developed by the Joint Collaborative Team on Video Coding (JCT-VC). The RTP payload format allows for packetization of one or more Network Abstraction Layer (NAL) units in each RTP packet payload, as well as fragmentation of a NAL unit into multiple RTP packets. Furthermore, it supports transmission of an HEVC stream over a single as well as multiple RTP flows. The payload format has wide applicability in videoconferencing, Internet video streaming, and high bit-rate entertainment-quality video, among others. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-schierl-payload-rtp-h265-00.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-schierl-payload-rtp-h265-00.txt _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt -------------------- visit us at GSMA Mobile World Congress 27 February - 1 March 2012 / Barcelona, Spain / Hall 2.0, booth 2E41 embedded world 2012 28 February - 1 March 2012 / Nuremberg, Germany / Hall 5, booth 5-228 CeBIT 2012 March 6-10, 2012 / Hannover, Germany www.hhi.fraunhofer.de/events --------------050509010900080001050308 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear all,

We just submitted the initial draft of the RTP payload format for HEVC. A presentation is planned for the Paris meeting.

Best regards,
Thomas

Dr.-Ing. Thomas Schierl

Head of Multimedia Communications Group
Image Processing Department
thomas.schierl@hhi.fraunhofer.de

Tel.	+49 30 31002-227
Fax	+49 30 31002-190
Skype	thomas.schierl

Fraunhofer HHI - Heinrich Hertz Institute
Einsteinufer 37, 10587 Berlin, Germany
http://www.hhi.fraunhofer.de/ip/mc


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: I-D Action: draft-schierl-payload-rtp-h265-00.txt
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 00:20:31 -0800
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org 


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.

	Title           : RTP Payload Format for High Efficiency Video Coding
	Author(s)       : Thomas Schierl
                          Stephan Wenger
                          Ye-Kui Wang
                          Miska M. Hannuksela
	Filename        : draft-schierl-payload-rtp-h265-00.txt
	Pages           : 43
	Date            : 2012-02-27

   This memo describes an RTP payload format for High Efficiency Video
   Coding (HEVC) [HEVC], which is currently being developed by the
   Joint Collaborative Team on Video Coding (JCT-VC).  The RTP payload
   format allows for packetization of one or more Network Abstraction
   Layer  (NAL)  units  in  each  RTP  packet  payload,  as  well  as
   fragmentation of a NAL unit into multiple RTP packets.  Furthermore,
   it supports transmission of an HEVC stream over a single as well as
   multiple RTP flows.  The payload format has wide applicability in
   videoconferencing,  Internet  video  streaming,  and  high  bit-rate
   entertainment-quality video, among others.




A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-schierl-payload-rtp-h265-00.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-schierl-payload-rtp-h265-00.txt

_______________________________________________
I-D-Announce mailing list
I-D-Announce@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt



-----
visit us at


GSMA Mobile World Congress
27 February - 1 March 2012 / Barcelona, Spain / Hall 2.0, booth 2E41


embedded world 2012
28 February - 1 March 2012 / Nuremberg, Germany / Hall 5, booth 5-228


CeBIT 2012
March 6-10, 2012 / Hannover, Germany
 

www.hhi.fraunhofer.de/events

--------------050509010900080001050308-- From vsingh.ietf@gmail.com Mon Feb 27 02:37:31 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 491D421F8680 for ; Mon, 27 Feb 2012 02:37:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3rZUN7tr9OPu for ; Mon, 27 Feb 2012 02:37:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ww0-f42.google.com (mail-ww0-f42.google.com [74.125.82.42]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CDF021F867E for ; Mon, 27 Feb 2012 02:37:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by wgbdt10 with SMTP id dt10so1184466wgb.1 for ; Mon, 27 Feb 2012 02:37:28 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of vsingh.ietf@gmail.com designates 10.216.134.37 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.216.134.37; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of vsingh.ietf@gmail.com designates 10.216.134.37 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=vsingh.ietf@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=vsingh.ietf@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.216.134.37]) by 10.216.134.37 with SMTP id r37mr6633040wei.38.1330339048307 (num_hops = 1); Mon, 27 Feb 2012 02:37:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=OqquH18ruYhv65dyzEqP8aRMAcXdr8jldteWh+VuGg0=; b=KEMhj9l5EyDTq0C56+tJKNf1uy1PwVkqSL8UpLUpVnxeJp9/z6JVq0oQ6azQjARIHg YkbX6Sy4DXlHyI2NvUXSz9dHUAxi+6wquPGNetP95oMgp7vgs0KbnNhBa2FfEeqS92nf iZvdMyEh0j/oq3lqUEpWuzMYc/BxC+ZJ6h1FM= Received: by 10.216.134.37 with SMTP id r37mr5275667wei.38.1330339048205; Mon, 27 Feb 2012 02:37:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.70.130 with HTTP; Mon, 27 Feb 2012 02:37:08 -0800 (PST) From: Varun Singh Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 12:37:08 +0200 Message-ID: To: avt@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: [AVTCORE] New Version Notification for draft-singh-avtcore-mprtp-04.txt X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 10:37:31 -0000 Hi, We have submitted an updated draft for Multipath RTP (MPRTP) and would like the WG to review the draft and provide feedback. The exact changes are: https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-singh-avtcore-mprtp-04.txt The main changes are: 1. Advertising MPRTP interfaces can be done in RTCP or using SDP. Both extensions are in the draft. 2. MPRTP multiplexes RTP and RTCP on a single port. 3. If an endpoint wants to do NAT traversal then it should use ICE procedures and the Section 11 covers how it could be done. However, using ICE is optional. So session can be setup using ICE and without ICE (Examples for session setup are in Section 11.6). 4. Using MPRTP with RTSP 2.0 There are still some open issues, mainly related to advertising interfaces in RTCP (in-band) and in SDP (out-of-band). In some situations advertising in RTCP is less complex, especially, if the interfaces were already offered as ICE candidates and connectivity checks were successful. Security considerations for sending interface advertisements in RTCP (without ICE) are still pending and will be covered in the coming iterations. Cheers, Varun Begin forwarded message: > A new version of I-D, draft-singh-avtcore-mprtp-04.txt has been successfully submitted by Varun Singh and posted to the IETF repository. > > Filename: draft-singh-avtcore-mprtp > Revision: 04 > Title: Multipath RTP (MPRTP) > Creation date: 2012-02-27 > WG ID: Individual Submission > Number of pages: 49 > > Abstract: > The Real-time Transport Protocol (RTP) is used to deliver real-time > content and, along with the RTP Control Protocol (RTCP), forms the > control channel between the sender and receiver. However, RTP and > RTCP assume a single delivery path between the sender and receiver > and make decisions based on the measured characteristics of this > single path. Increasingly, endpoints are becoming multi-homed, which > means that they are connected via multiple Internet paths. Network > utilization can be improved when endpoints use multiple parallel > paths for communication. The resulting increase in reliability and > throughput can also enhance the user experience. This document > extends the Real-time Transport Protocol (RTP) so that a single > session can take advantage of the availability of multiple paths > between two endpoints. > > > > > The IETF Secretariat From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Tue Feb 28 02:28:02 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0647D21F85A5 for ; Tue, 28 Feb 2012 02:28:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.291 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.291 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.308, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q6QDdIOkfcdG for ; Tue, 28 Feb 2012 02:28:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw10.se.ericsson.net (mailgw10.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3161B21F85A3 for ; Tue, 28 Feb 2012 02:28:01 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3d-b7bb7ae0000007b2-c2-4f4cac2fe39e Received: from esessmw0247.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw10.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 66.93.01970.F2CAC4F4; Tue, 28 Feb 2012 11:27:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0247.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.94) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.213.0; Tue, 28 Feb 2012 11:27:59 +0100 Message-ID: <4F4CAC2D.5000704@ericsson.com> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 11:27:57 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Roni Even References: <4f47cc67.c77d0e0a.7c07.ffffe4bb@mx.google.com> In-Reply-To: <4f47cc67.c77d0e0a.7c07.ffffe4bb@mx.google.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Cc: "avt@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] avtcore - session for IETF 83 - requests for agenda time. X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 10:28:02 -0000 WG, I will in my role as individual contributor request agenda time for continuing the discussion in Taipei around RTP multiplexing in general and the specific topic of multiplexing multiple RTP session on a single UDP flow. There will be updated drafts for both these topics before the draft update cut-off. Magnus On 2012-02-24 18:43, Roni Even wrote: > Hi, > > This is the schedule for AVTcore. Note that the agenda is not final and can change. Final meeting agenda will be published on March 2^nd . > > > > MONDAY, March 26, 2012 > > > > 1300-1500 Afternoon Session I > > 252B RAI avtcore > Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance WG > > > > 1510-1610 Afternoon Session II > > 252B RAI avtcore > Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance WG > > > > > > If you wish to have agenda time at the upcoming meeting in Paris > regarding AVTcore work, please send an agenda request to the AVTcore > chairs. We are trying to prepare the agenda early and not wait for the > last minute. > > > > Payload WG is not meeting in Paris and we may allocate some time to > resolve open issues regarding payload drafts time permitting. > > > > Note the document submission deadline are March 5^th for initial > document (00 drafts) and March 12^th is the final submission date. > > > > Roni Even > > AVTcore co-chair > > > > > > > -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From harald@alvestrand.no Wed Feb 29 00:20:11 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D926B21E807B for ; Wed, 29 Feb 2012 00:20:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.359 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.359 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.240, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OvrX-OtZ-p61 for ; Wed, 29 Feb 2012 00:20:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AC9621E8057 for ; Wed, 29 Feb 2012 00:20:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D9B539E163; Wed, 29 Feb 2012 09:20:07 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KczF4jl3SasZ; Wed, 29 Feb 2012 09:20:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.0.14] (c213-89-141-213.bredband.comhem.se [213.89.141.213]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CB32939E048; Wed, 29 Feb 2012 09:20:06 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4F4DDFB6.2080008@alvestrand.no> Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 09:20:06 +0100 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111229 Thunderbird/9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Magnus Westerlund References: <4f47cc67.c77d0e0a.7c07.ffffe4bb@mx.google.com> <4F4CAC2D.5000704@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <4F4CAC2D.5000704@ericsson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "avt@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] avtcore - session for IETF 83 - requests for agenda time. X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 08:20:11 -0000 On 02/28/2012 11:27 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > WG, > > I will in my role as individual contributor request agenda time for > continuing the discussion in Taipei around RTP multiplexing in general > and the specific topic of multiplexing multiple RTP session on a single > UDP flow. There will be updated drafts for both these topics before the > draft update cut-off. I support this request. Please include discussion of draft-alvestrand-rtp-sess-neutral-00.txt in this agenda topic. (Comments on this draft are still welcome, and if they come in this week, there MAY be an -01 version before the deadline. So far, there have been no comments.) Harald > > Magnus > > On 2012-02-24 18:43, Roni Even wrote: >> Hi, >> >> This is the schedule for AVTcore. Note that the agenda is not final and can change. Final meeting agenda will be published on March 2^nd . >> >> >> >> MONDAY, March 26, 2012 >> >> >> >> 1300-1500 Afternoon Session I >> >> 252B RAI avtcore >> Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance WG >> >> >> >> 1510-1610 Afternoon Session II >> >> 252B RAI avtcore >> Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance WG >> >> >> >> >> >> If you wish to have agenda time at the upcoming meeting in Paris >> regarding AVTcore work, please send an agenda request to the AVTcore >> chairs. We are trying to prepare the agenda early and not wait for the >> last minute. >> >> >> >> Payload WG is not meeting in Paris and we may allocate some time to >> resolve open issues regarding payload drafts time permitting. >> >> >> >> Note the document submission deadline are March 5^th for initial >> document (00 drafts) and March 12^th is the final submission date. >> >> >> >> Roni Even >> >> AVTcore co-chair >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > From ron.even.tlv@gmail.com Wed Feb 29 00:25:35 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AEE321F84C3 for ; Wed, 29 Feb 2012 00:25:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.413 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.413 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.186, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3y7X9afPxLai for ; Wed, 29 Feb 2012 00:25:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ey0-f172.google.com (mail-ey0-f172.google.com [209.85.215.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F3E121F8681 for ; Wed, 29 Feb 2012 00:25:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by eaal12 with SMTP id l12so2714745eaa.31 for ; Wed, 29 Feb 2012 00:25:33 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of ron.even.tlv@gmail.com designates 10.213.8.195 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.213.8.195; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of ron.even.tlv@gmail.com designates 10.213.8.195 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=ron.even.tlv@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=ron.even.tlv@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.213.8.195]) by 10.213.8.195 with SMTP id i3mr338855ebi.94.1330503933717 (num_hops = 1); Wed, 29 Feb 2012 00:25:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer :thread-index:content-language; bh=C54WhOqhiggzZap2QDS1MiROU8No6+p2Pqmqo7JhSg8=; b=kXe9Q1HSj7VrdIK9rM+paxlLSXZS+I/bWMpV6RWOJYiVbBjoWiGCVcMTFaMh73AtKQ F09HUTmvYTPEmcoJQHuNEde2Ngs9Bq0+tjw8q82Yp49M3gJaaXlNkpR1ypqSr4ip1SqW EV581Gx22vnjqZVGzDOCtIji6taHNicpm7yyY= Received: by 10.213.8.195 with SMTP id i3mr286185ebi.94.1330503933573; Wed, 29 Feb 2012 00:25:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from windows8d787f9 ([109.67.208.29]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s48sm80256809eem.0.2012.02.29.00.25.31 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 29 Feb 2012 00:25:32 -0800 (PST) From: "Roni Even" To: "'Harald Alvestrand'" , "'Magnus Westerlund'" References: <4f47cc67.c77d0e0a.7c07.ffffe4bb@mx.google.com> <4F4CAC2D.5000704@ericsson.com> <4F4DDFB6.2080008@alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <4F4DDFB6.2080008@alvestrand.no> Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 10:24:46 +0200 Message-ID: <4f4de0fc.c8b80e0a.77c3.ffffba3e@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acz2uvMc/pPJ3mKjR3WPwMGfHGVfggAADqlw Content-Language: en-us Cc: avt@ietf.org Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] avtcore - session for IETF 83 - requests for agenda time. X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 08:25:35 -0000 Hi Harald, OK, I will add your draft to the topic, I assume you will have some slides to present BTW: note that the deadline for 01 draft submission is March 12. BR Roni > -----Original Message----- > From: Harald Alvestrand [mailto:harald@alvestrand.no] > Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 10:20 AM > To: Magnus Westerlund > Cc: Roni Even; avt@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] avtcore - session for IETF 83 - requests for > agenda time. > > On 02/28/2012 11:27 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > > WG, > > > > I will in my role as individual contributor request agenda time for > > continuing the discussion in Taipei around RTP multiplexing in > general > > and the specific topic of multiplexing multiple RTP session on a > > single UDP flow. There will be updated drafts for both these topics > > before the draft update cut-off. > > I support this request. Please include discussion of draft-alvestrand- > rtp-sess-neutral-00.txt in this agenda topic. > > (Comments on this draft are still welcome, and if they come in this > week, there MAY be an -01 version before the deadline. So far, there > have been no comments.) > > Harald > > > > Magnus > > > > On 2012-02-24 18:43, Roni Even wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> This is the schedule for AVTcore. Note that the agenda is not final > and can change. Final meeting agenda will be published on March 2^nd . > >> > >> > >> > >> MONDAY, March 26, 2012 > >> > >> > >> > >> 1300-1500 Afternoon Session I > >> > >> 252B RAI avtcore > >> Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance WG > >> > >> > >> > >> 1510-1610 Afternoon Session II > >> > >> 252B RAI avtcore > >> Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance WG > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> If you wish to have agenda time at the upcoming meeting in Paris > >> regarding AVTcore work, please send an agenda request to the AVTcore > >> chairs. We are trying to prepare the agenda early and not wait for > >> the last minute. > >> > >> > >> > >> Payload WG is not meeting in Paris and we may allocate some time to > >> resolve open issues regarding payload drafts time permitting. > >> > >> > >> > >> Note the document submission deadline are March 5^th for initial > >> document (00 drafts) and March 12^th is the final submission date. > >> > >> > >> > >> Roni Even > >> > >> AVTcore co-chair > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Wed Feb 29 06:06:55 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A13F421F865C for ; Wed, 29 Feb 2012 06:06:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.002, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OqSlq3ARYQ18 for ; Wed, 29 Feb 2012 06:06:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw10.se.ericsson.net (mailgw10.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C85A21F866C for ; Wed, 29 Feb 2012 06:06:53 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3d-b7bb7ae0000007b2-89-4f4e30fd608f Received: from esessmw0247.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw10.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 82.37.01970.DF03E4F4; Wed, 29 Feb 2012 15:06:53 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0247.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.94) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.213.0; Wed, 29 Feb 2012 15:06:47 +0100 Message-ID: <4F4E30F6.2060800@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 15:06:46 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Qin Wu References: <4F3BB9C2.3020509@ericsson.com> <94DC837519784483ABEA2D7891C9CC08@china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <94DC837519784483ABEA2D7891C9CC08@china.huawei.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Cc: IETF AVTCore WG Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Comments on draft-ietf-avtcore-monarch-09 X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 14:06:55 -0000 Hi, Thanks for addressing my comment. See inline the ones where I have comments or feedback on the suggestions for fixing the issues. On 2012-02-24 10:13, Qin Wu wrote: > -------------------------------------------- > 3. In general I think 3.1 should discuss what exist already for > monitoring which there is no discussion. Like the RTP MIB. I can also > see other solutions like using IPfix to capture a packet flow and then > process using an RTP and RTCP receiver. > > > [Qin] I agree. In order to fix this, We propose > > the following text at the beginning of section > > 3.1 to say: > > “ > > There are many ways in which the performance > > of an RTP session can be monitored. These > > include RTP-based mechanisms such as the RTP > > SNMP MIB [RFC2959], or the SIP event package > > for RTCP summary reports [RFC6035], or non-RTP > > mechanisms such as generic MIBs, NetFlow, IPFix, > > and so on. Together, these provide useful > > mechanisms for exporting data on the performance > > of an RTP session to non-RTP network management > > systems. It is desirable to also perform in-session > > monitoring of RTP performance. RTCP provides the > > means to do this. In the following, we specify an > > architecture for using and extending RTCP for > > monitoring RTP sessions. One major benefit of > > such architecture is with ease of integration > > with other RTP/RTCP mechanism. > > ” Yes, that makes the scope and context much more clearer. > -------------------------------------- > 4. The document argues for RTCP XR based monitoring, but can you please > provide a clear indication of what the benefits are. > > > [Qin]: One major benefit I think is Ease of > > integration with other RTP/RTCP mechanisms. > > Another benefit I can see is RTCP-based monitoring > > Takes both transport quality and application quality > > into account and can provide more accurate measurement > > for the Real time application quality. My intention was to have that made clear in the draft. > 6. Section 1. > "As more users and subscribers rely on real time application services, > uncertainties in the performance and availability of these services > are driving the need to support new standard methods for gathering > performance metrics from RTP applications." > > What users and subscribers are you discussing above? The ones using RTP > to build services or the actual user of the service using RTP? > > > [Qin]: I think it is the latter. How about change it as: > > “ > > As the delivery of multimedia services using the Real-Time > > Transport Protocol (RTP) over IP network is gaining an > > increasing popularity, uncertainties in the performance and > > availability of these services are driving the need to > > support new standard methods for gathering performance > > metrics from RTP applications. > Yes, that is clearer. > --------------------------------------- > 8. Section 1. " Quality of Experience (QoE)." Can you please include > some reference that explains the concept of QoE? > > > [Qin]: Good suggestion, I think we should reference > > RFC6390 or P.10/G.100 Amendment 2. I prefer to use > > RFC6390. RFC 6390 is fine. > > > ------------------------------------- > 9. Section 1: "Since different applications layered on RTP may have > some monitoring requirements in common, therefore these metrics > should be satisfied by a common design." > > The above sentence needs to be reformulated. > > > [Qin]: How about rephrase like: > > “Given that different applications layered on RTP may have > > some monitoring requirements in common, these metrics > > should be satisfied by a common design. > Hmm, I guess it works in the context it is used in. > 11. Section 2: One example of such metrics is the QoE Metric > specified in QoE metric reporting Block [MQ]. > > I don't think that reference is a good example. The reference defines > how to transport and identify a large number of application level > metrics in RTCP XR, rather than being an example of a metric. > > > [Qin]: Do we have better reference than this one. > > I am aware that some ITU-T documents (e.g., ITU-T P.NAMS, > > P.NBAMS) define measurement method and model for > > QoE evaluation while other documents like RFC6390, > > E.800, P.10/G.100 Amendment 2 only give definition > > of QoE. Also I think QoE metric reporting Block [MQ] > > not only define data format for QoE metric and but > > also provide Metric name and description for QoE metric. > > If you really concerns this, I can remove this sentence. No, I can live with what is there. > > --------------------------------- > 12. Section 2: > Composed metrics > > Metrics that are calculated based on direct metric or combination > of direct metric and derived metrics. > > What is an derived metric? Appears to be an reference without an > explanation. > > [Qin]: Derived metric is actually one kind of composed metric. > > How about fix this like: > > “ > > Composed metrics > > Metrics that are calculated based on Direct metric that have been > measured or combination of Direct metrics that are identical to the > metric being composed. > ” Sorry, that looks strange in the second part: "combination of Direct metrics that are identical to the metric being composed" How can they be identical when they are a combination? > ---------------------------------------------- > 13. Section 2: > Interval metrics > > It is referred to as the metrics of which the reported values > apply to the most recent measurement interval duration between > successive metrics reports > > Is "interval duration" actually good English? To me the duration of an > interval is the actual interval. > > [Qin]:My understanding is Yes, Interval metrics is defined > in relation to “cumulative metric” as a metric that apply > to the duration of an interval. The interval should be the > most recent interval to be measured rather than accumulative > period within the whole session. Hmm, let see if someone else gets tripped up by this. > ------------------------------------------------- > 14. Section 2: > Sampled metrics > > It is referred to as the metrics of which the reported values only > apply to the value of a continuously measured or calculated that > has been sampled at end of the interval. > > Doesn't the above exclude metrics measured at give instance. Or is that > what "sampled at end of the interval" means? But then it isn't actually > an interval, is it? > > [Qin]: Ideally, I think sample metric can be applied to any > instance of one measurement interval. But I assume the more > sampled data you gather during one measurement interval, the > more accurate the sampled metric you can calculate. Does this > make sense? No, there is to much context missing of what type of metering one attempts and the behavior of the subject of the metering. > ---------------------------------------------------- > 17. Section 3.2: > o RTCP NACK is used to provide feedback on the RTP sequence number > of the lost packets [RFC4585]. > > In this case I would be a bit careful. Because the sequence numbers > reported on in NACK may in fact be a subset of all lost packets. Already > the media stream receiver creating NACK requests may in fact filter on > which sequence number is reported. There was a proposal for a > informative block (draft-ietf-avt-rtp-selret-05.txt) that allowed for > this type of information. There is other cases where a receiver will be > able to determine that it doesn't need to ask for some lost packets. > > > [Qin]: Okay, How about rephrase this sentence as: > > “ > > o RTCP NACK is used to provide feedback on the RTP sequence number > > on a subset of the lost packets or the total lost packets[RFC4585]. > > ” Except that "numbers" and "for a subset". I also think "total" is likely wrong and "all the currently" Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------